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SC GOP Voters: 15% Oppose Civil Rights Act, 27% ‘Not Sure’ - Update: 72% of Fox Viewers Reject CRA

Wingnuts • Views: 3,636

According to Public Policy Polling, only 58% of Republican primary voters in South Carolina support the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

In case you were wondering how Neanderthals like Rand Paul continue to get elected.

UPDATE at 5/25/10 11:20:40 am:

Meanwhile, according to a poll at the bottom of this page, Fox News viewers are even more open about their contempt for the Civil Rights Act.

Is federal intervention in private business okay if it’s to prevent discrimination?

Yes, it’s fine to intervene to stop companies from refusing services to everyone: 6.8%

No, the federal government shouldn’t decide whether businesses can select their own customers: 72.5%

Maybe, if a company is discriminating based on sex, color or ethnicity, it should be stopped: 12.8%

Don’t know, it depends on whether service is denied because of discrimination or another explanation: 7.9%

Jump to bottom

585 comments

1 The Curmudgeon  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:07:26am

I'm a bit old-fashioned myself. I'm partial to the Articles of Confederation.

2 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:07:39am

Did they explain what it was?

3 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:07:53am

Ahh, those pesky SC racists!

4 ShaunP  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:09:00am

"I'm all for civil rights. I just dislike any bill that's more than 5 pages long..."

5 Bagua  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:09:33am

Segregation Done Past


- Mance Lipscomb
6 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:09:34am

The Magna Carta was going too far in my opinion...

Probably the second-worst decision made by primates after opting to leave the trees...

:p

///

7 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:11:35am

This...actually didn't surprise me. The poll about a significant percentage of GOP voters believing Obama was the antichrist, that surprised me. Mostly because it seemed so silly. This, I just expected.

I'm guessing you'll see a lot of overlap between Tea Party activists and people who don't believe in the CRA.

8 Kragar  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:11:36am

re: #6 oaktree

The Magna Carta was going too far in my opinion...

Probably the second-worst decision made by primates after opting to leave the trees...

:p

///

DARWINIST!!!

9 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:11:44am

re: #6 oaktree

The Magna Carta was going too far in my opinion...

Probably the second-worst decision made by primates after opting to leave the trees...

:p

///

Stupid monolith! I warned him not to touch the thing, and to fall back and throw feces at it like the rest of us.....

10 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:12:06am

re: #9 Guanxi88

Stupid monolith! I warned him not to touch the thing, and to fall back and throw feces at it like the rest of us...

hahahahahaha upding :D

11 Mark Pennington  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:12:25am

As someone born and raised in Kookistan...I think those numbers are a little on the low side.

12 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:13:26am

/What can you expect of the home state of Strom Thurmond, the man who fired the first shots at Fort Sumter?

(Too mean?)

13 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:13:55am

OT - since Ed Anger was mentioned in the previous thread:

[Link: edanger360.com...]

14 engineer cat  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:14:13am

i'd like to stand up for the dignity and intelligence of neanderthals everywhere!

15 The Left  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:14:20am

re: #4 ShaunP

"I'm all for civil rights. I just dislike any bill that's more than 5 pages long..."

If it has one word more or less than the Constitution it's unamerican!

16 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:14:33am

58% is actually no that far from two thirds. Given the full-court press against anything rational in the last few years, that actually gives me comfort.

17 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:14:43am

re: #13 Mad Al-Jaffee

OT - since Ed Anger was mentioned in the previous thread:

[Link: edanger360.com...]

I'm madder than a hippy with a busted hookah!

18 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:14:52am

re: #6 oaktree

The Magna Carta was going too far in my opinion...

Probably the second-worst decision made by primates after opting to leave the trees...

:p

///

//I for one say that going into the trees was a mistake and we'd all be a lot happier if we just walked back into the ocean!

19 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:14:53am

re: #12 jamesfirecat

/What can you expect of the home state of Strom Thurmond, the man who fired the first shots at Fort Sumter?

(Too mean?)

It's OK. He was a Democrat at the time.

(Ba-dum-bump!)

20 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:15:22am

Fox News online poll:

Question:

Is federal intervention in private business okay if it's to prevent discrimination?

Yes, it's fine to intervene to stop companies from refusing services to everyone 6.8% (868 votes)

No, the federal government shouldn't decide whether businesses can select their own customers 72.6% (9,305 votes)

Maybe, if a company is discriminating based on sex, color or ethnicity, it should be stopped 12.8% (1,643 votes)

Don't know, it depends on whether service is denied because of discrimination or another explanation 7.9%

Poll is at the bottom of this page.

21 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:16:08am

Is there a similar survey of Dem voters with the same questions? One of the comments in the article points out that "don't know" could simply reflect respondents who lacked knowledge on the provisions of the act.

And I'd be curious how that would be reflected in the Dem primary voters.

From all the surveys bouncing around I get the impression that roughly 25% of respondents to any question would be ignorant of the knowledge needed to make an intelligent response to the question regardless of political affiliation.

22 Interesting Times  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:16:23am

Did anyone read the comments at the link?

There simply is no racism in 21st Century America, except that which comes FROM THE LEFT (affirmative action, gender quotas, mandatory bussing, race-based curriculum, etc.) 20th century racism has disappeared. "Civil rights" legislation and "civil rights" agitators are now the CAUSE of discrimination, not the remedy.

*headdesk*

23 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:16:35am

re: #20 Gus 802

Fox News online poll:

Poll is at the bottom of this page.

It's a consistent libertarian position, if nothing else.

24 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:17:00am

re: #21 oaktree

Is there a similar survey of Dem voters with the same questions? One of the comments in the article points out that "don't know" could simply reflect respondents who lacked knowledge on the provisions of the act.

And I'd be curious how that would be reflected in the Dem primary voters.

From all the surveys bouncing around I get the impression that roughly 25% of respondents to any question would be ignorant of the knowledge needed to make an intelligent response to the question regardless of political affiliation.

And another 25 to 27% will vote for any damn thing....

25 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:17:31am

re: #23 Guanxi88

It's a consistent libertarian position, if nothing else.

Right up until we get the results of a fox news poll on if the government should be able to stop people from getting abortions at least....

26 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:17:51am
27% 'Not Sure'

I can't stand the Not Sure vote in polls. Man up and pick a side Dammit!!

I'd like to go on the record as supporting the Civil Rights Act. I appreciate your vote for dog-catcher...

27 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:18:02am

re: #21 oaktree

re: #24 jamesfirecat

Both of which points make me sometimes long for alternatives to our system of government, til I recall how crappy all the others have proved to be.

28 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:18:23am

re: #26 rwdflynavy

Not sure may mean they weren't aware there WAS a CRA :D

29 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:18:26am

re: #25 jamesfirecat

Right up until we get the results of a fox news poll on if the government should be able to stop people from getting abortions at least...

Well, there is that.....

30 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:18:57am

re: #27 Guanxi88

re: #24 jamesfirecat

Both of which points make me sometimes long for alternatives to our system of government, til I recall how crappy all the others have proved to be.

That's only because you weren't around for the original res publica.

31 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:19:30am

re: #21 oaktree

Is there a similar survey of Dem voters with the same questions? One of the comments in the article points out that "don't know" could simply reflect respondents who lacked knowledge on the provisions of the act.

And I'd be curious how that would be reflected in the Dem primary voters.

From all the surveys bouncing around I get the impression that roughly 25% of respondents to any question would be ignorant of the knowledge needed to make an intelligent response to the question regardless of political affiliation.

Yeah. That's what I want to know. If people had only a general idea, or no idea, of what they were being asked about, it's going to skew the numbers badly.

This seems like a stat for the sake of having a startling stat.

32 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:20:39am

re: #30 Cato the Elder

That's only because you weren't around for the original res publica.

Young whipper-snapper that I am, I missed out on one of the few shining examples of proper self-government in human history. Still, I got to see Carter, and once shook hands with a fellow who later went up for running off with a bunch of cash from our state's treasury, so I've got that going for me.

33 jc717  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:21:05am

I'm actually shocked that they support for the CRA is that high in SC.
Isn't this the place with a confederate flag above the capital building?

34 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:21:23am

re: #28 WindUpBird

Not sure may mean they weren't aware there WAS a CRA :D

"Hey, where'd all the Whites Only signs go?!!?"
//

35 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:22:03am

re: #26 rwdflynavy

Program: Please speak your name as it appears on your current federal identity card. Document number G24L8.

Joe: I'm not sure if—

Program: You have entered the name "Not Sure". Is this correct, Not Sure?

Joe: No, it's not correct.

Program: Thank you. "Not" is correct. Is "Sure" correct?

Joe: No it's not. My name is Joe—

Program: You've already confirmed your first name is "Not". Please confirm your last name "Sure".

Joe: My last name is not "Sure".

Program: Thank you, "Not Sure".

Joe: No. What I mean is that my name is Joe.

Program: Confirmation is complete. Please wait while I tattoo your new identity on your arm.

-Idiocracy

36 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:22:13am

re: #33 jc717

I'm actually shocked that they support for the CRA is that high in SC.
Isn't this the place with a confederate flag above the capital building?

That's all about Huratage, not hate.
//

37 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:22:16am

re: #23 Guanxi88

It's a consistent libertarian position, if nothing else.

Hard to gauge the political identity in any of these poll. All I can say is that if people oppose the segment of the Civil Rights Act they're only thinking in terms of race or more specifically black people.

As for those blockheaded libertarians I wonder how they would respond if I asked them, "so you think it's OK for a diner to put up a sign that says No Jews?"

38 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:22:39am

re: #32 Guanxi88

Young whipper-snapper that I am, I missed out on one of the few shining examples of proper self-government in human history. Still, I got to see Carter, and once shook hands with a fellow who later went up for running off with a bunch of cash from our state's treasury, so I've got that going for me.

I assume you reference Carter as a shining example of how not to run a country or a foreign policy.

39 sattv4u2  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:22:51am

re: #12 jamesfirecat

/What can you expect of the home state of Strom Thurmond, the man who fired the first shots at Fort Sumter?

(Too mean?)

Not at all. Wasn't Robert Byrd his powder carrier?

40 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:23:26am

58% Support the CRA

15% Oppose the CRA

10% Think black people deserve some protections, but they just need to stop yakking about it so much and completely reject Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and then maybe we'll consider it

6% Are hazy on this whole federal law thing and didn't watch that cartoon about the bill becoming a law

6% of course support the CRA in most circumstances but things just haven't been the same since the golf courses were overrun with city youth

3% Who is John Galt?

2% WHAT?! Black people can vote?!?

41 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:24:08am

re: #37 Gus 802

As for those blockheaded libertarians I wonder how they would respond if I asked them, "so you think it's OK for a diner to put up a sign that says No Jews?"

They would say, "Yes, it's absolutely OK."

42 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:24:45am

re: #35 Mad Al-Jaffee

My favorite line in idocracy, which I probably lay on my partner about once a week:

"You talk like a fag, and your shit's all retarded!"

43 Renaissance_Man  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:24:57am

re: #20 Gus 802

Fox News online poll:

Poll is at the bottom of this page.

Or, once all the hints and codewords are properly translated from FOXNewspeak:

Q. Federal Government. Private Business. Race. What's your knee-jerk reaction?

- Yes, I'm a liberal Communist Nazi who hates America.
- No, the Government is bad. I love America. I love freedom.
- Maybe, I'm a milquetoast race-baiting liberal who wants to grind conservative white males into the dirt.
- Don't know, I'm too much of a wuss to have an opinion and come out and say I love America. I like nuance and the French.

44 Kragar  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:25:13am

"No inbred Southern Crackers allowed"

45 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:25:15am

re: #37 Gus 802

Hard to gauge the political identity in any of these poll. All I can say is that if people oppose the segment of the Civil Rights Act they're only thinking in terms of race or more specifically black people.

As for those blockheaded libertarians I wonder how they would respond if I asked them, "so you think it's OK for a diner to put up a sign that says No Jews?"

Was watching _Chinatown_ last night and those were the sorts of questions Jake was asking the manager of the old age home. Though in a roundabout way of course.

Interesting film with some excellent performances and a plot that is sort of riveting at times.

46 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:25:33am

re: #42 WindUpBird

My favorite line in idocracy, which I probably lay on my partner about once a week:

"You talk like a fag, and your shit's all retarded!"

"Hey, you want us to go family style on this one?"

47 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:26:39am

re: #46 Mad Al-Jaffee

"Hey, you want us to go family style on this one?"

hahahahahahahaha

I LOVE YOU WELCOME TO COSTCO I LOVE YOU

48 sattv4u2  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:27:12am

re: #41 Charles

Is there a link to the actual poll? I keep getting directed to the article, as well as comments on this and other polls from PPP

49 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:27:28am

re: #41 Charles

They would say, "Yes, it's absolutely OK."

Of course they would, have you forgotten some of the people who support Rand Paul?

50 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:27:31am

TITLE II OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT (PUBLIC ACCOMMODATIONS)

42 U.S.C. &sect2000a

(a)All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.

42 U.S.C. &sect2000a(b)

(b) Each of the following establishments is a place of public accommodation within this title if its operations affect commerce, or if discrimination or segregation by it is supported by State action:

(1) any inn, hotel, motel, or other establishment which provides lodging to transient guests, other than an establishment located within a building which contains not more than five rooms for rent or hire and which is actually occupied by the proprietor of such establishment as his residence.

(2) any restaurant, cafeteria, lunchroom, lunch counter, soda fountain, or other facility principally engaged in selling food for consumption on the premises, including, but not limited to, any such facility located on the premises of any retail establishment, or any gasoline station;

(3) any motion picture house, theater, concert hall, sports arena, stadium or other place of exhibition or entertainment; and

(4) any establishment (A)(i) which is physically located within the premises of any establishment otherwise covered by this subsection, or (ii) within the premises of which is physically located any such covered establishment and (B) which holds itself out as serving patrons of any such covered establishment.

Not supporting this is downright un-American.

51 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:28:36am

re: #50 Gus 802

I'd love to see Rand Paul (or his dumbfuck dad) squirm under the light of a question about whether a doctor or a private hospital can turn away Jews.

52 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:29:18am

re: #51 WindUpBird

I'd love to see Rand Paul (or his dumbfuck dad) squirm under the light of a question about whether a doctor or a private hospital can turn away Jews.

If they did, they'd be short-staffed, if nothing else.

53 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:30:46am

I notice Title II does not cover discrimination by political affiliation.

Therefore, I am immediately banning all Libertarians from my nationwide chain of Roman restaurants.

54 sattv4u2  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:31:15am

re: #52 Guanxi88

If they did, they'd be short-staffed, if nothing else.

is that a circumcision pun!?!?!
//

55 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:31:27am

re: #53 Cato the Elder

I notice Title II does not cover discrimination by political affiliation.

Therefore, I am immediately banning all Libertarians from my nationwide chain of Roman restaurants.

You own Little Ceasars?!?!?

56 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:32:13am

re: #52 Guanxi88

If they did, they'd be short-staffed, if nothing else.

Reminds me of when my great-grandmother - long gone in senile dementia - was at the hospital. Her doctor walks in - East Indian fellow - and she says: "Are you sure he's a doctor? He doesn't look like one." What do you mean, we ask? "Well, he doesn't look Jewish, and I don't want no Gentile working on me."

57 teleskiguy  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:32:25am

This topic and thread reminds me that we should do a blitz-of-information campaign with this book. The book states all the causes of this kind of bad craziness in this part of the world, in plain english. Sept. 10 is the release date, I plan to order it soon (through the LGF Amazon clicky thingy of course, 'cause I like this website).

58 sattv4u2  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:33:28am

re: #57 teleskiguy

(through the LGF Amazon clicky thingy of course, 'cause I like this website).

I didn't know it was Brownie Point Season!!!

///

59 cliffster  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:33:32am

re: #51 WindUpBird

I'd love to see Rand Paul (or his dumbfuck dad) squirm under the light of a question about whether a doctor or a private hospital can turn away Jews.

Hippocratic oath.

60 avanti  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:33:43am

I owned a retail store for 20 years, and I had the right to refuse service to anyone, of any race, gender or sexual orientation and did on occasion. I was not allowed to do that based on just the above. Asshole customers come in all flavors.

61 researchok  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:34:27am

What to do about Augusta Golf Club? They ban women members.

62 avanti  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:35:10am

re: #61 researchok

What to do about Augusta Golf Club? They ban women members.

Private clubs can discriminate.

63 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:35:26am

re: #53 Cato the Elder

I notice Title II does not cover discrimination by political affiliation.

Therefore, I am immediately banning all Libertarians from my nationwide chain of Roman restaurants.

Has PETA caught onto your dormice and thrush farming operations? Undersized clay pots for the former?

:)

Actually, reading Wikipedia on Roman cuisine indicates a pretty healthy grain and vegetable-centric diet.

64 researchok  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:35:42am

A private club is a private business.

65 Renaissance_Man  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:35:44am

re: #51 WindUpBird

I'd love to see Rand Paul (or his dumbfuck dad) squirm under the light of a question about whether a doctor or a private hospital can turn away Jews.

Why are you interviewing them with your preconceived liberal agenda? It's not fair to, you know, ask them questions when the questions and the questioning are in line with the liberal bias of the liberal mainstream media and their agenda. That's why Real Americans are turning off the liberal media with their bias and their liberal media agenda and watching good, fair, balanced, real, American, unbiased, real media with a real American agenda. Real Americans are sick of the gotcha questions and the liberal bias and their agenda and questions and socialism. You betcha.

66 sattv4u2  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:35:53am

re: #60 avanti

I owned a retail store for 20 years, and I had the right to refuse service to anyone, of any race, gender or sexual orientation and did on occasion. I was not allowed to do that based on just the above. Asshole customers come in all flavors.

Okay ,, NOW curious minds want to know

A) what kind of retail?
B) what were the circumstances of the refusal

(I understand if someone tried to come in with no shirt/ no shoes ,, ESPECIALLY if there was food involved ,,thats a given)

67 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:37:09am

Why stop at the Civil Rights Act of 1964? My family had 10,000 acres in the Cumberland Plateau/Sesquatchie Valley area of Tennessee in 1850. Following the Civil War we had 300 acres on the side of a mountain.

Let's roll back Reconstruction!

Reparations for the losers!!

Property rights, not human rights!!!

!!!1111!!

68 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:37:31am

re: #65 Renaissance_Man

Why are you interviewing them with your preconceived liberal agenda? It's not fair to, you know, ask them questions when the questions and the questioning are in line with the liberal bias of the liberal mainstream media and their agenda. That's why Real Americans are turning off the liberal media with their bias and their liberal media agenda and watching good, fair, balanced, real, American, unbiased, real media with a real American agenda. Real Americans are sick of the gotcha questions and the liberal bias and their agenda and questions and socialism. You betcha.

“I think that all good, right thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that all good, right thinking people in this country are fed up with being told that all good, right thinking people in this country are fed up with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not, and I'm sick and tired of being told that I am”

:)

69 sattv4u2  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:38:32am

re: #67 Jeff In Ohio

Property rights, not human rights!!!

ATTICA,, ATTICA,,, ATTICA

70 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:39:33am

re: #69 sattv4u2

Property rights, not human rights!!!

ATTICA,, ATTICA,,, ATTICA


[Video]

I'm dyin' here!

71 avanti  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:40:12am

re: #66 sattv4u2

Okay ,, NOW curious minds want to know

A) what kind of retail?
B) what were the circumstances of the refusal

(I understand if someone tried to come in with no shirt/ no shoes ,, ESPECIALLY if there was food involved ,,thats a given)

A. Home/Auto Electronics store.
B. One example: Guy brings back a set of speakers in the factory box for a credit, and puts his old speakers in the box.
another would be the drug dealer that tried to trade coke to one of my salesmen to steal from me.

72 Daniel Ballard  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:40:13am

Coincidental to the topic? I think not.

Exclusive: FBI details surge in death threats against lawmakers

Read more:
At my LGF page


Same mentality in many ways.

73 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:40:30am

Remember that this isn't a poll of the general public -- it's GOP primary voters. And the discussion about the Civil Rights Act has been all over the news for the past week.

I think it's pretty likely that they DO know what the CRA is.

74 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:40:41am

re: #66 sattv4u2

Okay ,, NOW curious minds want to know

A) what kind of retail?
B) what were the circumstances of the refusal

(I understand if someone tried to come in with no shirt/ no shoes ,, ESPECIALLY if there was food involved ,,thats a given)

I've always wondered about the "no shoes" thing.

Shirts I can see insisting on. Not everyone who thinks he has great pecs and abs actually does.

But shoes?

How are the soles of my feet any dirtier than the soles of my footwear?

And how do bare feet pose any greater risk around food than workboots?

I don't stick my feet in the trough, shod or unshod.

75 sattv4u2  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:41:15am

re: #71 avanti

A. Home/Auto Electronics store.
B. One example: Guy brings back a set of speakers in the factory box for a credit, and puts his old speakers in the box.
another would be the drug dealer that tried to trade coke to one of my salesmen to steal from me.

Thats very different than "refusal of service"

76 sattv4u2  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:43:00am

re: #74 Cato the Elder

I've always wondered about the "no shoes" thing.

Shirts I can see insisting on. Not everyone who thinks he has great pecs and abs actually does.

But shoes?

How are the soles of my feet any dirtier than the soles of my footwear?

And how do bare feet pose any greater risk around food than workboots?

I don't stick my feet in the trough, shod or unshod.

iirc,, there are more fungi diseases on the feet than I care to think of. Covered, they can't be "left behind"

77 researchok  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:43:16am

Then there are the NYC coop boards who refuse applicants for any reason, They are quite clear they are answerable to no one.

One could argue that any business that discriminates can claim they are 'private'.

78 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:43:40am
79 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:43:53am

re: #76 sattv4u2

iirc,, there are more fungi diseases on the feet than I care to think of. Covered, they can't be "left behind"

I don't think that's the reason. It's probably a cultural prejudice.

Half the world goes barefoot.

80 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:43:56am

re: #74 Cato the Elder

I've always wondered about the "no shoes" thing.

Shirts I can see insisting on. Not everyone who thinks he has great pecs and abs actually does.

But shoes?

How are the soles of my feet any dirtier than the soles of my footwear?

And how do bare feet pose any greater risk around food than workboots?

I don't stick my feet in the trough, shod or unshod.

Potential for foot injuries. Someone walks into your store and they cut their foot open then you're liable.

81 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:44:21am

Hmm, there is also a parallel between Roman cuisine and current American fast food.

Courtesy of Wikipedia:
Spices, especially pepper, but hundreds of other kinds too, were imported on a large scale and used copiously. One very popular spice was silphium; however, as it could not be cultivated it finally became extinct through overcropping of the wild plant. The inherent flavours of vegetables and meat were completely masked by the heavy use of garum and other seasonings. It was considered an indication of the highest achievement in culinary art if a gourmet could tell neither by sight, nor smell, nor taste what the ingredients of a dish were.

82 sattv4u2  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:44:32am

re: #80 Gus 802

Potential for foot injuries. Someone walks into your store and they cut their foot open then you're liable.

didn't think of that one,, thanks

83 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:44:35am

re: #37 Gus 802

As for those blockheaded libertarians I wonder how they would respond if I asked them, "so you think it's OK for a diner to put up a sign that says No Jews?"

When I was playing in a cover band in upstate NY in the late 70's, we played a lot of biker bars. Rough crowd. For the first few weeks I was wondering why almost every bar had a "No Coloreds Allowed" sign in the window. Every night I'd be thinking, I can't keep doing this, it rocks and all, I need the money, but it's just wrong. I said something to the lead guy, and he just look at me like I was the stupidest motherfucker he'd ever met. "No COLORS allowed. No COLORS". I was "Huh? Colors?". "No Hell's Angel jackets, no Outlaw jackets, NO COLORS YOU STUPID ASSHOLE."

Oh, OK, I get it now, no gang colors....

84 sattv4u2  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:45:19am

re: #79 Cato the Elder

I don't think that's the reason. It's probably a cultural prejudice.

Half the world goes barefoot.

Yes they do, and when in their restaurants/ grocery stores I occasionally do

BUT ,, when in Rome, and all that

85 teleskiguy  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:45:29am

re: #78 Mad Al-Jaffee

Nation's Shirtless, Shoeless March On Washington For Equal-Service Rights

"No Shirt, No Shoes, No Justice!"

86 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:46:02am

re: #83 Jeff In Ohio

A bar on the "rough side" of my new area of operations has a dress code that extends to prohibit neck and face tattoos. Jeez!

87 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:46:43am

No Earth Shoes™!

88 RogueOne  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:47:02am

re: #86 Guanxi88

A bar on the "rough side" of my new area of operations has a dress code that extends to prohibit neck and face tattoos. Jeez!

bigots

89 avanti  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:47:32am

re: #75 sattv4u2

Thats very different than "refusal of service"

Well, I tried to serve them, but told them not to come back. How about tossing out groups of pre teens that wanted to play in the store or sit on the couch and watch my movies in my home theater demo room ?

90 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:47:42am

re: #87 Cato the Elder

No Earth Shoes™!

Saw a product, ages ago - it was fake sandals - just the top straps, held by a little bit between the toes, to allow hippies to circumvent the no shoes thing. Seemed like a lot of trouble for very little reward.

91 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:47:49am

re: #87 Cato the Elder

No Earth Shoes™!

No Crocs™!

92 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:48:11am

re: #86 Guanxi88

A bar on the "rough side" of my new area of operations has a dress code that extends to prohibit neck and face tattoos. Jeez!

I have a funny reply to that, but I'm self moderating today.

93 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:48:41am

The good rednecks of SC and others like them - and by the way, if you are a Southerner who dislikes the Civil Rights Act, you are a redneck period - are, and have always been, amongst the lowest and most detestable of America. They are also a regional variation who has always felt this way. No one should be surprised that racism in the South never really died.

What is concerning to me is the Fox poll.

There are some 13,000 votes cast from not only Fox viewers, but those dedicated enough to read the Fox blogs. It is pretty clear that by even asking the question, Fox is gearing up to try to make questioning the Civil Rights Act respectable.

What I want to know is how many Americans nationwide are thinking this way.

Do we have any reliable numbers that might give a better nationwide view?

94 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:48:41am

re: #91 Gus 802

No Crocs™!

If you banned Crocs in Israel, half the people would be barefoot the next day.

95 ShaunP  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:48:45am

re: #64 researchok

A private club is a private business.

re: #77 researchok

Then there are the NYC coop boards who refuse applicants for any reason, They are quite clear they are answerable to no one.

One could argue that any business that discriminates can claim they are 'private'.

Are you going on record as saying you oppose the CRA? Just trying to understand the context of your posts...

96 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:49:04am

re: #83 Jeff In Ohio

No loud hawaiian prints! It spooks the bartender, then he just poring nothing but Pina Coladas.

97 Daniel Ballard  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:50:19am

re: #86 Guanxi88

A bar on the "rough side" of my new area of operations has a dress code that extends to prohibit neck and face tattoos. Jeez!

A place called The Downtown Grill here in LA has so many young tattooed customers I was worried I would have to get a tattoo to be served! The place is in the heart of the artist loft district in downtown.

Funny-your rough area bar bans them, my trendy grill joint nearly requires them. Ain't American culture grand?

98 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:50:50am

re: #94 Cato the Elder

If you banned Crocs in Israel, half the people would be barefoot the next day.

Really? I didn't know they were popular there.

I had a pair of Earth Shoes once. They were kind of goofy. Then I had a pair of Wallabees which was like walking on erasers.

99 RogueOne  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:51:11am

So is everyone in agreement that the government has the right to tell bar/restaurant owners whether than can allow smoking or not?

100 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:51:31am

re: #97 Rightwingconspirator

A place called The Downtown Grill here in LA has so many young tattooed customers I was worried I would have to get a tattoo to be served! The place is in the heart of the artist loft district in downtown.

Funny-your rough area bar bans them, my trendy grill joint nearly requires them. Ain't American culture grand?

Well, face and neck tattoos are gang related. The rest of us are just in the tribe.

101 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:51:38am

re: #71 avanti

The video game version of the speaker story is people who buy a new video game console, take the guts out (which are still functional), put the plastic case to the game console back in the box with a bag of rice for innards so it weighs the right amount, then they get a refund.

102 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:52:22am

re: #98 Gus 802

Really? I didn't know they were popular there.

I had a pair of Earth Shoes once. They were kind of goofy. Then I had a pair of Wallabees which was like walking on erasers.

I never even knew Crocs existed until my last trip to Israel. They are everywhere.

Here, I can go for months without seeing a pair.

103 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:52:28am

re: #86 Guanxi88

A bar on the "rough side" of my new area of operations has a dress code that extends to prohibit neck and face tattoos. Jeez!

haha that'd never fly in Portland, there's like, sensitive twee guys with horn-rimmed glasses who write poetry on computers with neck tattoos in this town :D

104 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:52:39am

re: #100 Jeff In Ohio

Well, face and neck tattoos are gang related. The rest of us are just in the tribe.

Bingo! The face & neck tattoos in Texas, and I imagine in many other places, are comparable to a mobster's pinky ring or a Yakuza's elaborate full-body tattoos. It's a warning to others.

105 researchok  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:52:43am

re: #95 ShaunP

Are you going on record as saying you oppose the CRA? Just trying to understand the context of your posts...

No, I am not against the CRA in any way, shape or form

I am merely pointing out the intended effect of the CRA leaves much to be desired at times.

Rights can be messy business.

106 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:53:26am

re: #99 RogueOne

So is everyone in agreement that the government has the right to tell bar/restaurant owners whether than can allow smoking or not?

I don't like it, (I like smoky rock venues!) but they have the ability to pass laws prohibiting people from polluting the air in businesses with publci accomodations, yes.

107 teleskiguy  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:53:30am

re: #93 LudwigVanQuixote

What is concerning to me is the Fox poll.

There are some 13,000 votes cast from not only Fox viewers, but those dedicated enough to read the Fox blogs. It is pretty clear that by even asking the question, Fox is gearing up to try to make questioning the Civil Rights Act respectable.

What I want to know is how many Americans nationwide are thinking this way.

Do we have any reliable numbers that might give a better nationwide view?

That's a good point. I suspect it to be a highly regional thing. I've never met anyone here out west that questions anything about the CRM.

108 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:53:47am

Gay Black Jewish Klansmen: Picture of the Day

[Link: www.jewcy.com...]

109 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:53:53am

re: #98 Gus 802

Really? I didn't know they were popular there.

I had a pair of Earth Shoes once. They were kind of goofy. Then I had a pair of Wallabees which was like walking on erasers.

Recollect the best pair of shoes I ever owned were these Ecco things, made in Denamrk or some such place. By gadfrey! That was fine set of footwear.

110 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:54:02am

re: #99 RogueOne

So is everyone in agreement that the government has the right to tell bar/restaurant owners whether than can allow smoking or not?

Quickly I would say a restaurant yes since it is open to the general public (i.e. children) and food is an essential need. A bar is generally for adults only and liquor is not an essential need so no on the bars.

111 hellointernet  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:54:03am

RE: Fox News poll

This may have already been mentioned, but while I don't dispute the likelihood that the majority of FNC's viewership would likely be opposed to some and/or all of the CRA, one must keep in mind that people on Reddit and 4chan love to stuff the ballot box in FNC's polls in order to make them appear to come out as fiercely skewed to the far right as possible. I'm not sayin'

I'm just sayin'

112 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:54:05am

re: #99 RogueOne

So is everyone in agreement that the government has the right to tell bar/restaurant owners whether than can allow smoking or not?

Sigh.

Smoking is an activity that forces other people in your vicinity to ingest the leavings of your drug. It is not comparable even to alcohol in that regard.

I would have no problem with a complete nationwide ban on smoking in public venues.

113 cliffster  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:54:33am

re: #99 RogueOne

So is everyone in agreement that the government has the right to tell bar/restaurant owners whether than can allow smoking or not?

That one's tough. I don't really agree with it, but it's certainly made my life more pleasant.

114 Bagua  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:54:43am

Oil Spill Update

The Bagua Page has a few photos of vessels involved with the MC252 response.

115 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:54:44am

re: #105 researchok

No, I am not against the CRA in any way, shape or form

I am merely pointing out the intended effect of the CRA leaves much to be desired at times.

Rights can be messy business.

That's true of all laws. Laws are always messy. That's why lawyers get paid so damn much. I remember my attorney dad telling me bedtime stories of insane legal quandries. :D

116 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:54:45am

re: #104 Guanxi88

Bingo! The face & neck tattoos in Texas, and I imagine in many other places, are comparable to a mobster's pinky ring or a Yakuza's elaborate full-body tattoos. It's a warning to others.

There's a couple of actors on Breaking Bad who are ex-gang members. One of them had to get makeup on his eyelids to cover the gang tattoos he has. He said the tattooing didn't hurt too much, but the spoons he had to put under the eyelids to get the tattoos did.

117 Donna Ballard  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:54:52am

re: #60 avanti

I owned a retail store for 20 years, and I had the right to refuse service to anyone, of any race, gender or sexual orientation and did on occasion. I was not allowed to do that based on just the above. Asshole customers come in all flavors.

I have a friend whose a diamond cutter and jewelry maker that has a sign above the cash drawer in 6" letters that reads:

"The price of labor is directly affected by the attitude of the customer at the time of purchase"

I've always loved doing business with that guy.....

118 webevintage  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:55:15am

Why do I get a feeling that the folks in the 75% are the kind who say things like "we never had any problem with our coloreds before civil rights, everyone was happy here"?

119 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:55:41am

re: #109 Guanxi88

Recollect the best pair of shoes I ever owned were these Ecco things, made in Denamrk or some such place. By gadfrey! That was fine set of footwear.

Mine was like a plain Timberland Oxford. Like this one.

120 ShaunP  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:55:43am

re: #105 researchok

No, I am not against the CRA in any way, shape or form

I am merely pointing out the intended effect of the CRA leaves much to be desired at times.

Rights can be messy business.

Gotcha. Thank you for clarifying. The private vs. public thing has been pretty well fleshed out at this point though. Here's as good an explanation (with an example) as I've seen:

[Link: www.aclupa.org...]

121 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:55:46am

re: #110 Gus 802

Quickly I would say a restaurant yes since it is open to the general public (i.e. children) and food is an essential need. A bar is generally for adults only and liquor is not an essential need so no on the bars.

Sadly, Portland bars are now smoke free. :P

Not a HUGE deal to me, I don't smoke tobacco, but still sorta bums me out. it does have the unintended consequence of making it easier for me to get up at karaoke, because everyone's smoking outside when their name is called :D

122 Daniel Ballard  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:55:49am

re: #117 Dragon_Lady

Hi Lady!

123 Donna Ballard  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:56:16am

re: #108 LudwigVanQuixote

Gay Black Jewish Klansmen: Picture of the Day

[Link: www.jewcy.com...]

LOL! You just made my day Ludwig!

124 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:56:32am

re: #112 Cato the Elder

Sigh.

Smoking is an activity that forces other people in your vicinity to ingest the leavings of your drug. It is not comparable even to alcohol in that regard.

I would have no problem with a complete nationwide ban on smoking in public venues.

This smoker agrees with you. It's indecent to compel others to share my vice or the leavings thereof. I'd no more smoke in a public place where others were not smoking than I'd ash on the floor. Shouldn't smoke indoors, anyway, except in wildfire country.

125 Donna Ballard  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:56:43am

re: #122 Rightwingconspirator

Hi Lady!

Hey you!

126 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:56:45am

re: #117 Dragon_Lady

I have a friend whose a diamond cutter and jewelry maker that has a sign above the cash drawer in 6" letters that reads:

"The price of labor is directly affected by the attitude of the customer at the time of purchase"

I've always loved doing business with that guy...

I do a lot of freelance art, and boy, there are definitely people I charge more because of their picky attitude (which actually means more work for me)

127 researchok  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:57:10am

re: #115 WindUpBird

That's true of all laws. Laws are always messy. That's why lawyers get paid so damn much. I remember my attorney dad telling me bedtime stories of insane legal quandries. :D

Agreed.

My point is that we can't assume what being 'against the CRA means' without further insight.

128 Renaissance_Man  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:57:29am

re: #99 RogueOne

So is everyone in agreement that the government has the right to tell bar/restaurant owners whether than can allow smoking or not?

They have as much right to do that as they do to tell the same owners they can't serve alcohol to minors. So yes.

129 avanti  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:57:36am

re: #99 RogueOne

So is everyone in agreement that the government has the right to tell bar/restaurant owners whether than can allow smoking or not?

That's a gray area for me. It is a public health issue but I was worried it would hurt the business's, but here it Maryland, it's actually helped.
The law was largely responsible for my best friend quitting. She got tired of standing outside the bars in the winter, but when the casino's limited smoking, that did it for her. 3 months without a smoke after over 20 years.

130 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:57:54am

re: #121 WindUpBird

Sadly, Portland bars are now smoke free. :P

Not a HUGE deal to me, I don't smoke tobacco, but still sorta bums me out. it does have the unintended consequence of making it easier for me to get up at karaoke, because everyone's smoking outside when their name is called :D

It's like that here too. I don't go to bars so it's not big deal for me as smoker. I wasn't always a smoker and couldn't stand smoking when I was non-smoker.

Never smoked much in restaurants even when you could. Thought it didn't make sense to go into a restaurant and smoke up a storm.

131 Donna Ballard  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:58:23am

re: #126 WindUpBird

I do a lot of freelance art, and boy, there are definitely people I charge more because of their picky attitude (which actually means more work for me)

Oh, you should see the looks on the faces of some of his customers that catch sight of that sign for the first time. Priceless!

132 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:59:18am

re: #127 researchok

Agreed.

My point is that we can't assume what being 'against the CRA means' without further insight.

Yeah, sorry, I'm not going there with you. If you're against the CRA in a poll, it ain't because you're a retired law professor ;-)

The CRA has unequivocally and without dispute or argument improved the lives of millions of black people, and being against it is...well it is what it is. And what it is sucks.

133 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:59:54am

re: #129 avanti

That's a gray area for me. It is a public health issue but I was worried it would hurt the business's, but here it Maryland, it's actually helped.
The law was largely responsible for my best friend quitting. She got tired of standing outside the bars in the winter, but when the casino's limited smoking, that did it for her. 3 months without a smoke after over 20 years.

My dad quit smoking because he was tired of standing outside the courthouse in the rain. :D

134 cliffster  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:00:21pm

Interestingly, the poll doesn't do any attempt to remember if you've already voted or not.

135 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:00:25pm

I certainly don't miss coming home from a gig and having to take a shower because my clothes and hair are covered in smoke. I smoke cigars, but only at home, outside.

136 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:01:06pm

I never smoked anything.
I never drank alcohol.
/BAN IT ALL!!!!

Afternoon.

137 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:01:42pm

A friend in Blacksburg, Virginia, reports that some kid brought two guns plus ammo to the local high school today.

Now everyone is doing the "what is the world coming to?" dipsy-doo-wah-diddle on her Facebook page. "This is a small community, how can this happen here?"

Always amusing to see that.

138 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:02:15pm

I propose the following media event:

Get a number of the most attractive women from Hollywood to come to a large meet and greet/party someplace in the South. Make certain it is a private place and that the event is well publicized.

Autographs will be signed, people will dance, drinks will be served.

Make certain that you are very clear that no rednecks, creationists or white trash is allowed to go into the private affair. Make really big signs that say this.

White folks have to pass a short history, science and constitutional law quiz to be allowed in. Have very large black bouncers remind them this is private property.

139 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:02:39pm

re: #137 Cato the Elder

A friend in Blacksburg, Virginia, reports that some kid brought two guns plus ammo to the local high school today.

Now everyone is doing the "what is the world coming to?" dipsy-doo-wah-diddle on her Facebook page. "This is a small community, how can this happen here?"

Always amusing to see that.

HE/SHE WAS SUCH A GOOD KID!

140 Donna Ballard  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:02:47pm

re: #100 Jeff In Ohio

Well, face and neck tattoos are gang related. The rest of us are just in the tribe.

They'd have to pay me an awful lot of money to get me to put a tat on my body! It would have to be enough to retire on and to have it removed with a laser after wards!

141 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:03:01pm

re: #136 Varek Raith

I never smoked anything.
I never drank alcohol.
/BAN IT ALL!!!

Afternoon.

Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!

142 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:03:18pm

re: #139 Varek Raith

HE/SHE WAS SUCH A GOOD KID!

"My neighbor was always polite and quiet. I'm still in shock!"

143 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:03:48pm

re: #133 WindUpBird

My dad quit smoking because he was tired of standing outside the courthouse in the rain. :D

He'd have been better off just not getting caught in the first place.

144 researchok  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:04:00pm

re: #132 WindUpBird

Yeah, sorry, I'm not going there with you. If you're against the CRA in a poll, it ain't because you're a retired law professor ;-)

The CRA has unequivocally and without dispute or argument improved the lives of millions of black people, and being against it is...well it is what it is. And what it is sucks.

Sorry, we disagree big time. The CRA has done a lot to hurt minorities especially in NYC housing markets. By not including coops or even attempting to fight them, CRA advocates have watered down the legislation.

Speaks volumes.

145 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:04:03pm

re: #136 Varek Raith

I never smoked anything.
I never drank alcohol.
/BAN IT ALL!!!

Afternoon.

Not until now, maybe. Wait till you come and visit. I'll get you hooked on hookahs and grappa.

146 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:06:00pm

re: #145 Cato the Elder

Not until now, maybe. Wait till you come and visit. I'll get you hooked on hookahs and grappa.

A little brandy in the condenser of a narghile can be very pleasant indeed.

147 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:06:07pm

re: #144 researchok

Sorry, we disagree big time. The CRA has done a lot to hurt minorities especially in NYC housing markets. By not including coops or even attempting to fight them, CRA advocates have watered down the legislation.

Speaks volumes.

The perfect is the enemy of the good. If you're waiting for a perfect law, you'll be waiting until the end of time.

148 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:06:44pm

re: #143 Guanxi88

He'd have been better off just not getting caught in the first place.

hahahaha

149 Mentis Fugit  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:06:58pm

re: #6 oaktree

Probably the second-worst decision made by primates after opting to leave the trees...


We should never have left the oceans in the first place.
-- Douglas Adams

150 abolitionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:07:40pm

re: #134 cliffster

Interestingly, the poll doesn't do any attempt to remember if you've already voted or not.

Might be modeled after some states' recent voting reforms (such as not requiring any ID or proof of residence).

151 webevintage  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:07:58pm

re: #124 Guanxi88

This smoker agrees with you. It's indecent to compel others to share my vice or the leavings thereof. I'd no more smoke in a public place where others were not smoking than I'd ash on the floor. Shouldn't smoke indoors, anyway, except in wildfire country.

When we moved to the home we are living in now my husband built a nice deck with a roof so he could smoke outside no matter what the weather was.
Very considerate and he hates what cig smoke does to the inside of your house.

152 teleskiguy  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:08:10pm

re: #142 Cato the Elder

"My neighbor was always polite and quiet. I'm still in shock!"

Neighbors Remember Serial Killer As A Serial Killer.

153 Donna Ballard  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:08:50pm

Well, its been nice chatting with you all, I'm gonna go take a dip in the pool. Keep Laughing Everyone! Later!

154 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:09:01pm

re: #139 Varek Raith

HE/SHE WAS SUCH A GOOD KID!

I was considered the "bad kid" in my neighborhood because my family was irreligious, I swore all the time, and because I had a fascination with car wrecks and post-apocalyptic imagery, I taught all my friends how to battle damage their toys by using rocks from our yard. :D

155 Mentis Fugit  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:09:13pm

re: #18 jamesfirecat

//I for one say that going into the trees was a mistake and we'd all be a lot happier if we just walked back into the ocean!

Damn.
But if I read the whole thread before commenting, I never catch up.

156 zora  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:09:45pm

re: #144 researchok


The CRA has done a lot to hurt minorities especially in NYC housing markets.

hurt them how?

157 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:09:58pm

re: #133 WindUpBird

My dad quit smoking because he was tired of standing outside the courthouse in the rain. :D

Reminds me of a sight I took in last week:

Sheriff and deputies moving folk to the courthouse here in town. They had the prisoners under guard, but allowed them to smoke before they went in. Saw a guy with the mirror shades and a shotgun slung over his shoulder handing out Marlboros. It's the little things you notice.

158 researchok  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:10:18pm

re: #147 WindUpBird

The perfect is the enemy of the good. If you're waiting for a perfect law, you'll be waiting until the end of time.

It has nothing to do with perfect. Housing is not the equivalent of a swim or golf club.

Supposedly, housing discrimination is a heinous offense. The available loophole to bypass those laws is the size of the Grand Canyon.

159 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:10:44pm

re: #157 Guanxi88

Probably good for them not to have nic-fitting prisoners :D

160 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:11:11pm

re: #132 WindUpBird

Yeah, sorry, I'm not going there with you. If you're against the CRA in a poll, it ain't because you're a retired law professor ;-)

The CRA has unequivocally and without dispute or argument improved the lives of millions of black people, and being against it is...well it is what it is. And what it is sucks.


Fixed.
I think CRA has helped all residents of our nation regardless of skin color.

161 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:11:27pm

re: #159 WindUpBird

Probably good for them not to have nic-fitting prisoners :D

True, but I considered it a very touching thing. It's weird, but I saw a genuine act of gratuitous kindness right there.

162 wrenchwench  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:12:36pm

re: #155 Mentis Fugit

Damn.
But if I read the whole thread before commenting, I never catch up.

The point where I caught up was on your post. I should start at the end.

163 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:12:42pm

re: #158 researchok

let me ask you this: what percentage of people in America affected by this law will run afoul of NYC's coop laws?

164 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:12:49pm

re: #154 WindUpBird

I was considered the "bad kid" in my neighborhood because my family was irreligious, I swore all the time, and because I had a fascination with car wrecks and post-apocalyptic imagery, I taught all my friends how to battle damage their toys by using rocks from our yard. :D

Lol, that sounds like me...

165 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:12:58pm

I tell you, I;m abivalent about tobacco. It is harmful, even if it's not always fatal, and yet, so many people have for so long derived such genuine comfort from it, that I'm not sure a culture can do without it once it's been diffused throughout it.

166 researchok  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:13:11pm

re: #160 rwdflynavy

Fixed.
I think CRA has helped all residents of our nation regardless of skin color.

Tell that to tens of thousands of minorities who have been kept out of some real estate because of discrimination.

167 Bagua  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:13:36pm

Oil Spill Update:

Good animation of the Top Kill which may be tried Wednesday.

The Mud (a heavy fluid) will be pumped off the adjacent barge to the platform which will pump it at pressure down to the sea-bed. They will most likely start with heavy mud, about twice the weight of sea water.

The mud goes straight down a marine riser, and into the specially manufactured manifold which will inject it into the two available inlets into the failed BOP. One is a choke line and one is a kill line.

They just re-installed the control pod that was brought to the surface for repair. This pod controls the choke and kill lines.

If all goes well, and they are able to force the mud down, the hydrostatic pressure will stop the flow of oil and gas. Once the mud start to be lost into the reservoir, they will shift to lighter mud and attempt to balance the well, at which point it will be possible to cement it shut.

168 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:13:36pm

re: #160 rwdflynavy

Fixed.
I think CRA has helped all residents of our nation regardless of skin color.

Of course! But black people have a special significance when it comes to the CRA because of the history of America.

169 ShaunP  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:14:36pm

re: #166 researchok

Tell that to tens of thousands of minorities who have been kept out of some real estate because of discrimination.

This sounds like a local issue and not something that should have even been addressed through the CRA. The states do still have the right, nay, the obligation to write their own state civil rights laws to address the particular needs locally...

170 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:14:40pm

re: #166 researchok

Tell that to tens of thousands of minorities who have been kept out of some real estate because of discrimination.

What are you proposing?

171 iossarian  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:14:45pm

re: #138 LudwigVanQuixote


Make certain that you are very clear that no rednecks, creationists or white trash is allowed to go into the private affair. Make really big signs that say this.

Ludwig, I'd be careful about casual use of the term "redneck" - there are definitely people out there who self-identify thus and who are not particularly bad or crazy. Same goes for "white trash". Being poor does not make you a racist.

Creationists, on the other hand, those you can fire away on.

172 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:14:58pm

re: #166 researchok

Tell that to tens of thousands of minorities who have been kept out of some real estate because of discrimination.

A great law with a flaw. That's every law ever passed.

173 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:15:06pm

re: #166 researchok

Tell that to tens of thousands of minorities who have been kept out of some real estate because of discrimination.

That does not occur because of the CRA it occurs despite of the CRA.

174 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:15:16pm

re: #164 Varek Raith

Lol, that sounds like me...

I was a wee slip of a lad at ae 10 when I got my hands onto a step-up transformer salvaged from a xerox copier. 120 volts in, 14,500 volts out. I fired many a thing before I blew the breakers.

175 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:15:21pm

re: #173 Gus 802

That does not occur because of the CRA it occurs despite of the CRA.

THERE we go

176 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:15:40pm

re: #171 iossarian

Hillwilliams!

177 webevintage  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:16:05pm

re: #153 Dragon_Lady

Well, its been nice chatting with you all, I'm gonna go take a dip in the pool. Keep Laughing Everyone! Later!

Have fun.

(I will not mutter about you pool rich folks rubbing your awesome poolness in the faces of us pool deprived people who really, really want a pool but can't get our spouse to put one in because they think swimming is a silly past time and just a lot of work.)

178 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:16:08pm

re: #174 Guanxi88

I was a wee slip of a lad at ae 10 when I got my hands onto a step-up transformer salvaged from a xerox copier. 120 volts in, 14,500 volts out. I fired many a thing before I blew the breakers.

O_O Tell us more!

179 researchok  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:16:26pm

re: #169 ShaunP

This sounds like a local issue and not something that should have even been addressed through the CRA. The states do still have the right, nay, the obligation to write their own state civil rights laws to address the particular needs locally...

Sadly, there is a whole legal industry devoted to finding ways around CRA provisions in a lot more places than you might imagine.

180 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:16:48pm

re: #171 iossarian

Redneck, I was taught, was derived from the red bandannas worn by striking miners and union folk during the early days of unionization. Whether it's true or not, I can't say.

181 Bagua  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:16:53pm

Note that the area above the leaking MC252 well is crowded with vessels, and the sea floor is crowded with ROVs, equipment, and the collapsed riser.

Image: 2%20Crowded%20waters.jpg

182 wrenchwench  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:17:22pm

re: #171 iossarian

Ludwig, I'd be careful about casual use of the term "redneck" - there are definitely people out there who self-identify thus and who are not particularly bad or crazy. Same goes for "white trash". Being poor does not make you a racist.

Creationists, on the other hand, those you can fire away on.

My stepmother, when she was disparaging her brother, called him a redneck. After they reconciled, she said she should not have called him that, "He's just country." They're in North Carolina.

183 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:18:22pm

re: #178 WindUpBird

O_O Tell us more!

Loved the smell of ozone; Coat hangers make an excellent, if temporary, Jacob's ladder display, high voltage will jump damned near any gap if the air's ionized or even just heated up - but DON'T use a Bic lighter to do the heating, as the arc will hit the metal and cause a mondo fire in your hand!

Also, remember that you must never close the arc-gap completely, or you'll fry your transformer.

184 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:18:24pm

re: #40 WindUpBird

dude. hilarious. well done-

185 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:18:51pm

re: #174 Guanxi88

I was a wee slip of a lad at ae 10 when I got my hands onto a step-up transformer salvaged from a xerox copier. 120 volts in, 14,500 volts out. I fired many a thing before I blew the breakers.

Heh. My thing was taking stuff apart. When I was 4 I started taking apart all my toys, the doors faceplates and door knobs. My poor dad could never get some of the toys back together.
XD

186 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:20:32pm

re: #185 Varek Raith

Heh. My thing was taking stuff apart. When I was 4 I started taking apart all my toys, the doors faceplates and door knobs. My poor dad could never get some of the toys back together.
XD

Thank God my family bought me Lego sets :D

187 Daniel Ballard  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:21:01pm

re: #181 Bagua

Great image! Looks like a naval war diagram sorta.

188 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:21:58pm

re: #79 Cato the Elder

I don't think that's the reason. It's probably a cultural prejudice.

Half the world goes barefoot.

Dude. If 'popular' is a synonym for 'good', then Hannah Montana makes awesome music.

189 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:22:44pm

re: #171 iossarian

Ludwig, I'd be careful about casual use of the term "redneck" - there are definitely people out there who self-identify thus and who are not particularly bad or crazy. Same goes for "white trash". Being poor does not make you a racist.

Creationists, on the other hand, those you can fire away on.

OK that is fine...

What exactly then is the proper term for uneducated, classless, moronic, racist, southern ideologues who hate black people?

190 KingKenrod  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:22:58pm

re: #180 Guanxi88

Redneck, I was taught, was derived from the red bandannas worn by striking miners and union folk during the early days of unionization. Whether it's true or not, I can't say.

I always heard it is because farmers work in the fields all day, giving them sunburned necks. Hence country folk always had red necks.

191 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:23:14pm

re: #167 Bagua

Oil Spill Update:

Good animation of the Top Kill which may be tried Wednesday.

The Mud (a heavy fluid) will be pumped off the adjacent barge to the platform which will pump it at pressure down to the sea-bed. They will most likely start with heavy mud, about twice the weight of sea water.

The mud goes straight down a marine riser, and into the specially manufactured manifold which will inject it into the two available inlets into the failed BOP. One is a choke line and one is a kill line.

They just re-installed the control pod that was brought to the surface for repair. This pod controls the choke and kill lines.

If all goes well, and they are able to force the mud down, the hydrostatic pressure will stop the flow of oil and gas. Once the mud start to be lost into the reservoir, they will shift to lighter mud and attempt to balance the well, at which point it will be possible to cement it shut.


[Video]

Great post. Thanks.

192 Bagua  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:23:38pm

re: #187 Rightwingconspirator

Great image! Looks like a naval war diagram sorta.

A Naval war being fought at a mile below the surface.

193 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:23:51pm

re: #183 Guanxi88

Also, remember that you must never close the arc-gap completely, or you'll fry your transformer.

On that last note, remember that a lot of the older transformers - all of them long gone now, I'm sure - were filled with a synthetic oil coolant, which WILL smoke and burn if you close the gap completely, and that it's impossible to conceal the resulting fire from your parents in the front of the house.

194 ShaunP  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:23:56pm

re: #188 Aceofwhat?

Dude. If 'popular' is a synonym for 'good', then Hannah Montana makes awesome music.

That was dangerously close to being downdinged for putting "Hannah Montana" and "awesome music" in the same sentence...

195 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:23:57pm

re: #77 researchok

Then there are the NYC coop boards who refuse applicants for any reason, They are quite clear they are answerable to no one.

One could argue that any business that discriminates can claim they are 'private'.

New York City Commission on Human Rights - HOUSING

The City Human Rights Law protects residents of most types of housing in New York City against discrimination. If you reside in an apartment building or multiple family dwelling, co-op, condominium, government-assisted housing, or residential hotel, you are covered under the Law. The Law does not extend to residents of two-family houses if the owner or a member of the owner’s family resides in one of the housing accommodations and the available housing accommodation was not advertised. In addition, you are not covered by the Law if you rent a room or rooms in non-government assisted housing where the owner resides.

It is unlawful for landlords, superintendents, building managers, condominium owners, cooperative owners and boards to discriminate in the sale, rental or lease of a housing accommodation or in the provision of services and facilities because of a person’s actual or perceived race, color, national origin, gender (including gender identity), disability, sexual orientation, creed, marital status, partnership status, alienage or citizenship status, any lawfull source of income, age, lawful occupation, or because children are or may be residing with the person.

196 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:24:24pm

Funniest cartoon mocking racists I've seen in a while.

[Link: zone.artizans.com...]

197 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:24:58pm

re: #196 LudwigVanQuixote

Funniest cartoon mocking racists I've seen in a while.

[Link: zone.artizans.com...]

Lol.

198 KingKenrod  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:25:26pm

re: #189 LudwigVanQuixote

OK that is fine...

What exactly then is the proper term for uneducated, classless, moronic, racist, southern ideologues who hate black people?

"Cracker". Just ask Spike Lee.

199 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:25:45pm

re: #86 Guanxi88

A bar on the "rough side" of my new area of operations has a dress code that extends to prohibit neck and face tattoos. Jeez!

heh...had my brother over to watch the game last night...looking at Matt Barnes, we agreed that nothing says "i either play in the NBA or i'm here to wash the floors" like an above-collar tat...

200 Walter L. Newton  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:26:01pm

re: #189 LudwigVanQuixote

OK that is fine...

What exactly then is the proper term for uneducated, classless, moronic, racist, southern ideologues who hate black people?

Racists... and they come in all colors of necks... and political persuasion... and religious proclivities... you know... otherwise known as humans...

201 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:26:46pm

re: #160 rwdflynavy

Fixed.
I think CRA has helped all residents of our nation regardless of skin color.

Great comment.

202 Digital Display  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:26:58pm

Good Afternoon Lizards!
I think my Realtor found me a new house today...It is wicked cool...
It is called a tree house...It is a natural wood house up on stilts in the woods with a deck that runs around the entire house...You are eye level with the surrounding trees..with an open and airy rooms that don't need drapes cause the trees are your drapes.. I'm pretty jacked right now...Wow a house on stilts in the woods..What a concept...

203 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:27:31pm

re: #200 Walter L. Newton

Racists... and they come in all colors of necks... and political persuasion... and religious proclivities... you know... otherwise known as the most detestable of humans...

FTFY

204 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:27:45pm

re: #202 HoosierHoops

Good Afternoon Lizards!
I think my Realtor found me a new house today...It is wicked cool...
It is called a tree house...It is a natural wood house up on stilts in the woods with a deck that runs around the entire house...You are eye level with the surrounding trees..with an open and airy rooms that don't need drapes cause the trees are your drapes.. I'm pretty jacked right now...Wow a house on stilts in the woods..What a concept...

Damn tree Elves....
///
Hi!

205 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:27:48pm

re: #202 HoosierHoops

Good Afternoon Lizards!
I think my Realtor found me a new house today...It is wicked cool...
It is called a tree house...It is a natural wood house up on stilts in the woods with a deck that runs around the entire house...You are eye level with the surrounding trees..with an open and airy rooms that don't need drapes cause the trees are your drapes.. I'm pretty jacked right now...Wow a house on stilts in the woods..What a concept...

Congrats!

206 Kragar  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:27:57pm

re: #202 HoosierHoops

Good Afternoon Lizards!
I think my Realtor found me a new house today...It is wicked cool...
It is called a tree house...It is a natural wood house up on stilts in the woods with a deck that runs around the entire house...You are eye level with the surrounding trees..with an open and airy rooms that don't need drapes cause the trees are your drapes.. I'm pretty jacked right now...Wow a house on stilts in the woods..What a concept...

Very zombie safe as well.

207 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:28:15pm

re: #99 RogueOne

So is everyone in agreement that the government has the right to tell bar/restaurant owners whether than can allow smoking or not?

telling you how i expect you to behave in my establishment is a little different than telling you what race or gender i expect you to be...

208 reine.de.tout  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:28:26pm

re: #167 Bagua

Oil Spill Update:

Good animation of the Top Kill which may be tried Wednesday.

The Mud (a heavy fluid) will be pumped off the adjacent barge to the platform which will pump it at pressure down to the sea-bed. They will most likely start with heavy mud, about twice the weight of sea water.

The mud goes straight down a marine riser, and into the specially manufactured manifold which will inject it into the two available inlets into the failed BOP. One is a choke line and one is a kill line.

They just re-installed the control pod that was brought to the surface for repair. This pod controls the choke and kill lines.

If all goes well, and they are able to force the mud down, the hydrostatic pressure will stop the flow of oil and gas. Once the mud start to be lost into the reservoir, they will shift to lighter mud and attempt to balance the well, at which point it will be possible to cement it shut.


[Video]

I appreciate your fascination with this and the info. you provide.

But I'm confused about the mud. If it's the heavy mud pressure that pushes the flow back down, then how will they move to a lighter mud and keep the flow down?

I have a vague understanding that one of the problems that caused the blowout in the first place, was that they displaced the heavy mud keeping pressure on the flow with lighter seawater, thus allowing the oil and gas to spew on out.

209 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:28:32pm

re: #202 HoosierHoops

Good Afternoon Lizards!
I think my Realtor found me a new house today...It is wicked cool...
It is called a tree house...It is a natural wood house up on stilts in the woods with a deck that runs around the entire house...You are eye level with the surrounding trees..with an open and airy rooms that don't need drapes cause the trees are your drapes.. I'm pretty jacked right now...Wow a house on stilts in the woods..What a concept...

Ewoks for neighbors, eh?

210 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:28:33pm

re: #202 HoosierHoops

You're moving to Pandora?

211 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:28:40pm

re: #194 ShaunP

That was dangerously close to being downdinged for putting "Hannah Montana" and "awesome music" in the same sentence...

i often tread a fine line around here;)

212 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:29:20pm

re: #209 Guanxi88

Ewoks for neighbors, eh?

Sigh, I wasn't gonna mention the Ewoks...
*Forms hunting party*

213 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:29:21pm

re: #103 WindUpBird

haha that'd never fly in Portland, there's like, sensitive twee guys with horn-rimmed glasses who write poetry on computers with neck tattoos in this town :D

help...what's a "twee guy"?

214 Digital Display  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:29:48pm

re: #205 LudwigVanQuixote

Congrats!

Finally! I'm going to live like a Hippie in the woods...anybody know any Hippie girls that are into free love? *wink*

215 reine.de.tout  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:29:52pm

re: #189 LudwigVanQuixote

OK that is fine...

What exactly then is the proper term for uneducated, classless, moronic, racist, southern ideologues who hate black people?

May I ask what term you use for uneducated, classless, mornonic, racist NORTHERN ideologues who hate black people?

Just use the same one for both sets, IMO.

216 iossarian  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:30:23pm

re: #189 LudwigVanQuixote

OK that is fine...

What exactly then is the proper term for uneducated, classless, moronic, racist, southern ideologues who hate black people?

How about "UCMRSIs"?

Seriously, though, I realize that your point is to illustrate what the principle of the CRA act is. I just flinch when I hear those terms in casual use - they're just another set of words people use to inflict harm.

217 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:30:47pm

re: #213 Aceofwhat?

help...what's a "twee guy"?

HoosierHoops, pwetty soon, if his deal works out.

218 Walter L. Newton  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:30:49pm

re: #202 HoosierHoops

Good Afternoon Lizards!
I think my Realtor found me a new house today...It is wicked cool...
It is called a tree house...It is a natural wood house up on stilts in the woods with a deck that runs around the entire house...You are eye level with the surrounding trees..with an open and airy rooms that don't need drapes cause the trees are your drapes.. I'm pretty jacked right now...Wow a house on stilts in the woods..What a concept...

Wait till you find out why it's on stilts!

219 diamonda2u  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:30:49pm

Civil rights are only ok to these folks when someone is is against what they want (i.e. pro-choice, open to ALL religions, etc....)

220 vinnievin  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:30:55pm

re: #73 Charles

Charles,

I thought about sending you an email directly, but thought I would put this out there in case anyone else had something to say about it, karma rating be damned. I don't think I am posting anything that would merit being banned, but this is your ship and you are at the helm. I understand the risk I am taking by posting this.

You can tell a lot about someone by the topics they continue to talk about. And I have to admit that I was more than a little happy to read your reasons for parting with the right. But what I am having problems reconciling is that you seem willing to jump into bed with the left, or at the very minimum have lost all desire to also be critical of them.

For someone who made their name by calling out the mainstream media, you sure seem willing to be toeing the party line as of late. And again, this is what I deduce not only by what you say but also by what you don't say.

I will grant that you still have strong feelings about Israel and the religion of peace. You have been consistent about that. I also see that you are very passionate about other topics, such as global warming and anti-white supremacy. More power to you. No love lost there.

But I see this incredibly high concentration of posts regarding rand paul, palin, GOPers, topics highly critical of mostly conservatives, even Tea Partiers ... and sometimes I feel like I am reading HuffPost or Kos or DU when I come here. I do read those sites as well, because I like a balance of news. I think that the only way to find the truth is to read from different perspectives and sift out the facts for yourself.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I find myself changing the column under which I now sort LGF. And this is your site, your baby - who am I to take it away from you. I am glad you are not aligned to the right. But Charles, did you really have to move so far to the left? Do you not recognize that they are two heads of the same beast?

To those who respond, please don't be a hater.

221 Kragar  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:30:58pm

re: #212 Varek Raith

Sigh, I wasn't gonna mention the Ewoks...
*Forms hunting party*

HAHA! Your Force Lightning and light saber is nothing compared to their flint and stick weaponry!

222 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:31:01pm

re: #212 Varek Raith

Sigh, I wasn't gonna mention the Ewoks...
*Forms hunting party*

Remember - Ewok benefits from long slow roasting and/or stewing.

223 zora  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:31:07pm

re: #190 KingKenrod

that's what i thought, too.

224 researchok  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:31:24pm

re: #195 Gus 802

Breaking the co-op barrier

N.Y.'s white picket fences: Westchester housing discrimination settlement is a wakeup callYour text to link...

Woman sues co-op for saying: Live with your people

When a Co-op Board Rejects a Buyer

225 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:31:33pm

re: #109 Guanxi88

Recollect the best pair of shoes I ever owned were these Ecco things, made in Denamrk or some such place. By gadfrey! That was fine set of footwear.

Cole Haan, with nike air technology. They're like buttered butter.

226 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:32:05pm

re: #220 vinnievin

Ahh, jeez, here we go!

227 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:32:24pm

re: #220 vinnievin

You can't compare us to Kos or DU and expect us to not be "hating".

228 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:32:31pm

re: #206 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Very zombie safe as well.

Another reason to love the GF. She was commenting on zombie apocalypse survival.

She had seen something where someone wanted to use a flame thrower on zombies.

She said:

"What? The zombie will take a while to burn... Now you have a Flaming zombie coming towards you who will bite you and light you on fire! Shotguns with explosive slugs are the only way to go!"

Is that awesome or what?

229 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:32:46pm

re: #215 reine.de.tout

May I ask what term you use for uneducated, classless, mornonic, racist NORTHERN ideologues who hate black people?

Just use the same one for both sets, IMO.

redneck.

230 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:33:05pm

re: #221 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

HAHA! Your Force Lightning and light saber is nothing compared to their flint and stick weaponry!

THANK YOU, GEORGE LUCAS!
9_9

231 Kragar  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:33:09pm

Getting a real big "Start your own damn blog" vibe

232 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:33:10pm

re: #228 LudwigVanQuixote

Another reason to love the GF. She was commenting on zombie apocalypse survival.

She had seen something where someone wanted to use a flame thrower on zombies.

She said:

"What? The zombie will take a while to burn... Now you have a Flaming zombie coming towards you who will bite you and light you on fire! Shotguns with explosive slugs are the only way to go!"

Is that awesome or what?

She's a keeper.

233 zora  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:33:12pm

re: #202 HoosierHoops

i love forest homes. there is a wonderful one for sale in my neighborhood.

234 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:33:27pm

re: #63 oaktree

Has PETA caught onto your dormice and thrush farming operations? Undersized clay pots for the former?

:)

Actually, reading Wikipedia on Roman cuisine indicates a pretty healthy grain and vegetable-centric diet.

Some of the junk the upper crust ate for fun, though, is astonishing.

But that's true of many cultures.

235 Summer Seale  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:34:22pm

re: #189 LudwigVanQuixote

OK that is fine...

What exactly then is the proper term for uneducated, classless, moronic, racist, southern ideologues who hate black people?

Assholes.

236 cliffster  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:34:26pm

re: #220 vinnievin

Aren't you the dude who wanted to see naked pictures of my wife?

237 reine.de.tout  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:34:53pm

re: #229 LudwigVanQuixote

redneck.

There ya go then.

238 Kragar  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:34:54pm

re: #228 LudwigVanQuixote

Another reason to love the GF. She was commenting on zombie apocalypse survival.

She had seen something where someone wanted to use a flame thrower on zombies.

She said:

"What? The zombie will take a while to burn... Now you have a Flaming zombie coming towards you who will bite you and light you on fire! Shotguns with explosive slugs are the only way to go!"

Is that awesome or what?

2 man teams, 1 with a catchpole/boar spear, 1 with a lucern hammer or equivalent, both with machetes for back up. Most efficient and quiet.

239 Mocking Jay  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:35:03pm

re: #236 cliffster

Aren't you the dude who wanted to see naked pictures of my wife?

No, that was... yeah! He's the guy!

...

240 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:35:04pm

re: #234 SanFranciscoZionist

Some of the junk the upper crust ate for fun, though, is astonishing.

But that's true of many cultures.

I had a whole live carp on the table before me this past weekend, a special banquet dish ordered up for visiting dignitaries. They flash-cook the body without killing it. Gruesome and most unappetizing.

241 gamark  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:35:06pm

re: #193 Guanxi88

On that last note, remember that a lot of the older transformers - all of them long gone now, I'm sure - were filled with a synthetic oil coolant, which WILL smoke and burn if you close the gap completely, and that it's impossible to conceal the resulting fire from your parents in the front of the house.

Yikes! Can you say PCBs? I'd avoid the smoke even if the parents weren't around.

242 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:35:18pm

re: #74 Cato the Elder

I've always wondered about the "no shoes" thing.

Shirts I can see insisting on. Not everyone who thinks he has great pecs and abs actually does.

But shoes?

How are the soles of my feet any dirtier than the soles of my footwear?

And how do bare feet pose any greater risk around food than workboots?

I don't stick my feet in the trough, shod or unshod.

I think they're worried more about getting sued when you step on a tack, rather than that your feet are unclean.

243 vinnievin  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:35:38pm

re: #236 cliffster

Didn't I include the obligatory /sarcasm tag when I did that? I was told to lighten up, that was my attempt at humor. Didn't know that was a left/right issue.

244 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:35:43pm

re: #202 HoosierHoops

Good Afternoon Lizards!
I think my Realtor found me a new house today...It is wicked cool...
It is called a tree house...It is a natural wood house up on stilts in the woods with a deck that runs around the entire house...You are eye level with the surrounding trees..with an open and airy rooms that don't need drapes cause the trees are your drapes.. I'm pretty jacked right now...Wow a house on stilts in the woods..What a concept...

If one turns up for sale that looks like a wooden hut on chicken legs being sold by an elderly Russian lady think twice. Even it it appears to be really roomy inside!

;)

245 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:35:48pm

re: #189 LudwigVanQuixote

OK that is fine...

What exactly then is the proper term for uneducated, classless, moronic, racist, southern ideologues who hate black people?

i dunno. what's the proper term for whites who live in Boston and hate black people?

246 Obdicut  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:35:56pm

re: #220 vinnievin


For someone who made their name by calling out the mainstream media, you sure seem willing to be toeing the party line as of late.

Fox is the mainstream media and Charles is calling them out.

That is just one aspect in which your comment is profoundly, ah, misguided.

247 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:35:59pm

re: #241 gamark

Yikes! Can you say PCBs? I'd avoid the smoke even if the parents weren't around.

I grew up in one of the most heavily polluted places in these United States. What's a little PCB among friends?

248 vinnievin  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:36:37pm

re: #246 Obdicut

Fox is the absolute right of the mainstream media. What about MSNBC?

249 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:36:40pm

re: #189 LudwigVanQuixote

OK that is fine...

What exactly then is the proper term for uneducated, classless, moronic, racist, southern ideologues who hate black people?

We always called them rednecks.

:)

250 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:37:06pm

re: #79 Cato the Elder

I don't think that's the reason. It's probably a cultural prejudice.

Half the world goes barefoot.

My mother grew up in Southern California. Like everyone else, she and her siblings would run around barefoot a lot.

My great-grandmother, who grew up in the Old Country, never got used to it. "Only peasants go barefoot."

251 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:37:24pm

re: #228 LudwigVanQuixote

Kill the brain, kill the zombie. Flamethrower to the head will do that.

252 Digital Display  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:37:44pm

re: #233 zora

i love forest homes. there is a wonderful one for sale in my neighborhood.

I have never heard of a house on Stilts in the woods before...I really like the deck around the whole house.. It looks really cool...Huge windows....beautiful rooms....mmmmm I just thought about something... I forgot to ask about Internet access...I'm sure there is cable there...right?

253 Obdicut  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:37:53pm

re: #238 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

A horse is probably the best anti-zombie weapon. Feel free to bring along a ball-and-chain if you want to get fancy, but really a well-trained stomping horse would be great.

Well-trained stomping horses are few and fare between these days, though.

254 vinnievin  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:38:02pm

re: #227 Varek Raith

You can't compare us to Kos or DU and expect us to not be "hating".

I wasn't referring to the caustic commenters, if that is what you mean. And I will concede there is a more diverse group of commenters here. I am referring to the majority of articles and topics that are posted on the main page, not the links or the comments to said posts.

255 garhighway  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:38:07pm

re: #99 RogueOne

So is everyone in agreement that the government has the right to tell bar/restaurant owners whether than can allow smoking or not?

I would note that in addition to such laws being for the health of the businesses patrons, they are also workplace safety laws. The patron gets to duck into the bar, have a drink, breathe in a little smoke, and head out. But the bartender has to breathe everybody's smoke for his or her entire shift. The state or city has as much right to regulate smoking in such places as it does other workplace safety issues: guards on machines, hearing protection and the like.

It is a fact that the country we live in (speaking as an American) does not recognize property rights to be the absolute highest priority. That is, as the Randster would say, settled law. It is also the right answer for any sort of just society.

256 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:38:08pm

re: #215 reine.de.tout

May I ask what term you use for uneducated, classless, mornonic, racist NORTHERN ideologues who hate black people?

Just use the same one for both sets, IMO.

We always called them rednecks.
:)

257 Bagua  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:38:21pm

re: #208 reine.de.tout

I appreciate your fascination with this and the info. you provide.

But I'm confused about the mud. If it's the heavy mud pressure that pushes the flow back down, then how will they move to a lighter mud and keep the flow down?

I have a vague understanding that one of the problems that caused the blowout in the first place, was that they displaced the heavy mud keeping pressure on the flow with lighter seawater, thus allowing the oil and gas to spew on out.

Yes, the heavy mud, probably 16lb/gal would be pumped against the flow from the well, and down to the reservoir. It is pushed by 2 Schlumberger MD 1000 high pressure pumps at a pressure of 6,800 psi (about double what Austin_Blue was basing his calculation on.) It also acquires the pressure from the full 5,000 ft column to the surface.

As they have recently measured a pressure of about 9,000 psi at the BOP bottom, we are approaching something that could work.

Once the well itself is full of heavy mud, displacing the oil/gas mixture, it will stop the flow, but, the mud will start to be lost to the reservoir. Thus, they will then start to inject with a lighter mud, until balance is achieved, with no mud flowing into the reservoir and no oil/gas flowing into the well.

258 Kragar  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:38:44pm

re: #251 Mad Al-Jaffee

Kill the brain, kill the zombie. Flamethrower to the head will do that.

Just stand over there when you do it.

Ludwig, once he draws them off, we can make a break for it.

259 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:39:00pm

re: #220 vinnievin

Is there a cliff notes version for this?

260 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:39:01pm

re: #245 Aceofwhat?

i dunno. what's the proper term for whites who live in Boston and hate black people?

"Assholes"

261 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:39:19pm

re: #94 Cato the Elder

If you banned Crocs in Israel, half the people would be barefoot the next day.

You can tell when the toddler gymnastics class is going on at my Y. There's a row of little rainbow-colored Crocs lined up outside the door to the gym.

262 researchok  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:39:30pm

re: #220 vinnievin

You might have had some legitimate critique- until you wrapped yourself around the Rand/Ron Paul thing because that isn't really a right or left issue. Those are matters of right and wrong. Those are matters about how we define our nation and who we are as a nation.

Neither Rand or Ron Paul add to the luster of the American political scene. There is something fundamentally wrong when legions of bigots and racists align themselves with phony 'libertarians'- and those candidates say and do nothing about it.

We can argue over the Arizona immigration bill and we can argue over drilling for oil, but when you make Rand/Ron Paul moral equivalents you speak volumes about who you really are and what you believe.

263 Kragar  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:39:56pm

re: #253 Obdicut

A horse is probably the best anti-zombie weapon. Feel free to bring along a ball-and-chain if you want to get fancy, but really a well-trained stomping horse would be great.

Well-trained stomping horses are few and fare between these days, though.

Most animals are unsettled by the restless dead. Unless you have one trained to fight zombies, it would be risky.

264 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:39:58pm

re: #224 researchok

Breaking the co-op barrier

N.Y.'s white picket fences: Westchester housing discrimination settlement is a wakeup callYour text to link...

Woman sues co-op for saying: Live with your people

When a Co-op Board Rejects a Buyer

Well yeah. Just because there's a law doesn't make things automatic or that people will adhere to them.

265 Obdicut  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:40:04pm

re: #248 vinnievin

Fox is the absolute right of the mainstream media. What about MSNBC?

What about them? I pointed out that your comment was wildly off-base, given that in this very post Charles is going after the mainstream media. Did you not understand that?

Charles has made it abundantly clear why he's posting so much stuff about the insanity on the right-wing: he thinks it's a significant problem. So do I. And, after the rise of Rand Paul, so, I would think, do most rational conservatives.

Why do you have a problem with Charles shining a spotlight on the craziness in the right wing right now? I'd think that'd be more important to a rational conservative than exposing craziness on the left.

266 abolitionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:40:04pm

re: #250 SanFranciscoZionist

My mother grew up in Southern California. Like everyone else, she and her siblings would run around barefoot a lot.

My great-grandmother, who grew up in the Old Country, never got used to it. "Only peasants go barefoot."

And Steve Jobs, until he got serious about trying to attract investors to what had been literally a startup company operating out of a garage.

267 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:40:13pm

re: #245 Aceofwhat?

i dunno. what's the proper term for whites who live in Boston and hate black people?

We always called them rednecks.
:)

268 researchok  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:40:29pm

re: #264 Gus 802

Well yeah. Just because there's a law doesn't make things automatic or that people will adhere to them.

No truer words, my friend.

269 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:40:51pm

re: #249 Jeff In Ohio

We always called them rednecks.

:)

Apropos of all this, a few lines from Kinky Friedman:

Well, a redneck nerd in a bowling shirt was a-guzzlin' Lone Star beer
Talking religion and-uh politics for all the world to hear.
"They oughta send you back to Russia, boy, or New York City one
You just want to doodle a Christian girl and you killed God's only son."

I said, "Has it occurred to you, you nerd, that thats not very nice,
We Jews believe it was Santa Claus that killed Jesus Christ."
"You know, you don't look Jewish," he said, "near as I could figger
I had you lamped for a slightly anemic, well-dressed country REDACTED"

No, they ain't makin' Jews like Jesus anymore,
They don't turn the other cheek the way they done before.
He started in to shoutin' and a-spittin' on the floor,
"Lord, they ain't makin' Jews like Jesus anymore."

270 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:41:21pm

re: #98 Gus 802

Really? I didn't know they were popular there.

I had a pair of Earth Shoes once. They were kind of goofy. Then I had a pair of Wallabees which was like walking on erasers.

Israelis love their Crocs. Chic young things wear them, old ladies collecting money for yeshivas wear them. During the Gaza withdrawal, a woman was refused entrance to the Knesset building because she was wearing an orange pair, and they thought it was a political statement.

271 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:41:46pm

re: #220 vinnievin

This isn't about you or your personal feelings about this blog.

Put down the mirror and stop looking at yourself.

272 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:41:50pm

re: #99 RogueOne

So is everyone in agreement that the government has the right to tell bar/restaurant owners whether than can allow smoking or not?

I'm all right with it.

273 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:41:52pm

re: #269 Guanxi88

Exactly.

274 Obdicut  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:41:58pm

re: #263 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Most animals are unsettled by the restless dead. Unless you have one trained to fight zombies, it would be risky.

True. Let's use hippos, instead. It's hard to tell when a hippo is unsettled, since their reaction to nearly all stimuli is to charge and bite it in half.

275 vinnievin  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:42:15pm

re: #262 researchok

I could care less about rand or ron. But if you look back at how many of the last 50 posts have his name in it, you would understand my point better.

I do not support him, nor do I question the civil rights act. Do not put words in my mouth.

276 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:42:24pm

re: #216 iossarian

How about "UCMRSIs"?

Seriously, though, I realize that your point is to illustrate what the principle of the CRA act is. I just flinch when I hear those terms in casual use - they're just another set of words people use to inflict harm.

I hear your point. I have no intention of unfairly slamming anyone. I suppose it is also a regional thing.

Where I grew up in Pennsylvania, we have Klan and all sorts of fools like that. They are not prevalent, but they are around out in the countryside.

We always called them rednecks.

It's not a slam on white folks.

It is however meant as a slam on certain disgusting people. If good foks out there like to call themselves rednecks, then I certainly should find a better word.

But let me be clear. The sorts who question the CRA, the sorts who would drag us back into the worst threads of American history, the Neo-Nazis, the Klansmen, the thinly veiled supporters of them, I have nothing but the most intense contempt for.

I do not dislike them.

I despise them as a cancer on everything I believe America stands for.

I am not inclined to talk of them in any sort of reconciliatory tone or give them the time of day. It is painful to me to even acknowledge that they come from the same species as me. So, when I direct my intense disgust at these repugnant, drooling throwbacks to a more hideous age of injustice and cruelty, what term would you have me use?

I do not want to unfairly splash innocents with my disgust at a very specific class of Anti-American.

277 Obdicut  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:42:27pm

re: #272 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm all right with it.

I'm all right with it as long as there's the loopholes for owner-operated bars and the like.

278 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:43:09pm

re: #270 SanFranciscoZionist

Israelis love their Crocs. Chic young things wear them, old ladies collecting money for yeshivas wear them. During the Gaza withdrawal, a woman was refused entrance to the Knesset building because she was wearing an orange pair, and they thought it was a political statement.

I've never tried them, but I might buy a pair this summer when my brother gets his boat out again. Probably much better for boating than sandals.

279 vinnievin  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:43:18pm

re: #265 Obdicut

So you too acknowledge that there is an abundance of criticism for the right here, but not so much for the left?

280 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:43:19pm

re: #274 Obdicut

True. Let's use hippos, instead. It's hard to tell when a hippo is unsettled, since their reaction to nearly all stimuli is to charge and bite it in half.

Are you insinuating that my in-laws are Hippos?

281 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:43:40pm

Good grief.

282 wrenchwench  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:43:52pm

re: #279 vinnievin

Start your own blog.

283 garhighway  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:43:56pm

re: #279 vinnievin

So you too acknowledge that there is an abundance of criticism for the right here, but not so much for the left?

Dude:

Come by in the mornings.

284 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:44:19pm

re: #281 Varek Raith

Good grief.

That you, Charlie Brown?

285 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:44:47pm

re: #245 Aceofwhat?

i dunno. what's the proper term for whites who live in Boston and hate black people?


redneck.

I have always called these sorts rednecks.

Also Reine, I was NOT calling you a redneck. You asked the same question as Ace. I call those sorts rednecks. We always called them that when I was growing up.

286 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:45:05pm

re: #133 WindUpBird

My dad quit smoking because he was tired of standing outside the courthouse in the rain. :D

When I was in grad school in England, we had what we called a 'smoker's sukkah'. Four posts and a corrugated fiberglass roof. People would huddle in there and smoke like chimneys.

287 lawhawk  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:45:12pm

OT: More coverage on the NYC Lower Manhattan mosque, and a claim that the coverage has been distorted.

Days after Community Board (CB) 1’s Financial District Committee passed a unanimous resolution in favor of the Cordoba Institute moving to Lower Manhattan to build a community center with a mosque, local and national media outlets pounced on the story. Ro Sheffe, the committee chair, was disappointed, to say the least, with the coverage.

“There has been so much inaccuracy in so many of the media accounts of this proposal,” said Sheffe last Friday. “From what we were told at the meeting - what we were hearing was a secular community center with a mosque attached. Everything we heard obviously we liked. It was unanimous.”

Though the coverage has been exhaustive - from web-only news outlets to the New York Post, even an anti-Cordoba House Facebook group with 53,000 members already opposing the group - few elected officials have taken a stance on the issue, save for New York State Senator Daniel Squadron.

“Community religious and civic organizations have been a big part of the extraordinary resurgence of Lower Manhattan,” Squadron said Wednesday evening. “The Cordoba Initiative has been a part of that rebuilding, and a new community facility would contribute to Lower Manhattan’s role as a center for cultural diversity and tolerance.”

As of press time, this paper had reached out to a number of elected officials and only Squadron returned our calls.

Still, there are other reports that the financing is coming from foreign sources, in addition to those from the Ford Foundation and Rockefeller Bros. Fund.

288 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:46:05pm

re: #279 vinnievin

So you too acknowledge that there is an abundance of criticism for the right here, but not so much for the left?

You know my Unicorn was saying the exact same thing to me this morning.

289 Obdicut  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:46:18pm

re: #279 vinnievin

So you too acknowledge that there is an abundance of criticism for the right here, but not so much for the left?

Um, yes-- in so far as I believe those categories have meaning. Do you not feel that with things like the GOP denying global warming, pushing theocracy, having fuckers like Rand Paul (and scarier types) as nominees, and the general slide of the GOP towards a theocratic party of white males, that this is a larger problem for conservatives than it is for liberals? The GOP is putting itself farther and farther in the electoral hole, long term, and its abandoning its integrity and values to do so. As I said, I would think this would be a larger concern for a conservative than it would be for a liberal.

I don't think Charles really has hid the fact that he thinks the right wing in the US is out of control in the way the left wing isn't. In fact, he's publicly stated it many times.

Are you one of those 'there's nuts on both sides' people who just always insists the sides must be equal in insanity, in the face of probability, logic, and evidence?

290 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:46:30pm

re: #279 vinnievin

So you too acknowledge that there is an abundance of criticism for the right here, but not so much for the left?

Cripes. Who cares what you think. We're not going to spend the next hour discussing what Vinnievin thinks about Little Green Footballs.

Go away.

291 Kragar  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:46:45pm

You guys ever notice how Charles only posts an overnight thread late at night? Whats up with that?

/

292 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:47:25pm

re: #290 Gus 802

Cripes. Who cares what you think. We're not going to spend the next hour discussing what Vinnievin thinks about Little Green Footballs.

Go away.

This blog doesn't focus enough on the Rebel Alliance and their crimes!

293 Interesting Times  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:47:56pm

re: #265 Obdicut

Why do you have a problem with Charles shining a spotlight on the craziness in the right wing right now? I'd think that'd be more important to a rational conservative than exposing craziness on the left.

Judging from his past comments, he's far more concerned with drawing a laughably false equivalence between Maddow and Limbaugh.

294 garhighway  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:48:03pm

re: #287 lawhawk

OT: More coverage on the NYC Lower Manhattan mosque, and a claim that the coverage has been distorted.

Inaccuracy? Distortion? In the NY Post? Impossible.

295 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:48:03pm

re: #285 LudwigVanQuixote

redneck.

I have always called these sorts rednecks.

Also Reine, I was NOT calling you a redneck. You asked the same question as Ace. I call those sorts rednecks. We always called them that when I was growing up.

Yeah, that's not too far off from what we called them ourselves, down in WV.

See, ya got a buncha different folk out there:

Rednecks - generally dangerous
Hillbillies - VERY dangerous
Good Ol' Boys - benign, for the most part
Country - safe enough, but a little slow and suspicious
Townies - rigid types, generally overly religious, and with wild hair
Ridge-Runners - VERY dangerous, a sort of mobile hillbilly
Flat-Landers - fools and rubes and softies

296 sattv4u2  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:48:14pm

re: #285 LudwigVanQuixote

redneck.

I have always called these sorts rednecks

You may have, but Bostonians rarely used that term when encountering other Bostonian racists. Northerners in general and Bostonians in particular reserved "redneck" for southerners, be they racist or not

(I was born, raised and lived most of the 1st 45 years of my life there)

297 Digital Display  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:48:19pm

re: #290 Gus 802

Cripes. Who cares what you think. We're not going to spend the next hour discussing what Vinnievin thinks about Little Green Footballs.

Go away.

He could always join the Village of the Damned and spend the rest of his natural life bitching about LGF....

298 Mocking Jay  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:48:23pm

re: #291 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You guys ever notice how Charles only posts an overnight thread late at night? Whats up with that?

/

Charles needs to have a post or two on how Obama's destroying America.

/

299 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:49:23pm

re: #292 Varek Raith

This blog doesn't focus enough on the Rebel Alliance and their crimes!

I am disappointed that LGF seems to have lost focus with hospitality industry news and romance novels.

//

300 lawhawk  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:49:24pm

re: #292 Varek Raith

Nor on the high crimes and misdemeanors of George Lucas, whose stilted language and revisionist history has turned me to the Dark Side (though it apparently is a viral/parasitic infection so with time and treatment, I might overcome, although even then, I might die simply because I lost the will to live).

301 Mocking Jay  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:49:27pm

re: #297 HoosierHoops

He could always join the Village of the Damned and spend the rest of his natural life bitching about LGF...

And probably spend even more time reading it...

302 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:49:35pm

re: #189 LudwigVanQuixote

OK that is fine...

What exactly then is the proper term for uneducated, classless, moronic, racist, southern ideologues who hate black people?

Assholes. It has the advantage of being adaptable, should any of those factors change.

303 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:49:40pm

re: #254 vinnievin

I wasn't referring to the caustic commenters, if that is what you mean. And I will concede there is a more diverse group of commenters here. I am referring to the majority of articles and topics that are posted on the main page, not the links or the comments to said posts.

dang, if only we had our own little spin-off pages that we could construct on our own, with topics of our own choosing...that'd just be heaven...

304 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:50:10pm

re: #300 lawhawk

Nor on the high crimes and misdemeanors of George Lucas, whose stilted language and revisionist history has turned me to the Dark Side (though it apparently is a viral/parasitic infection so with time and treatment, I might overcome, although even then, I might die simply because I lost the will to live).

True, so freaking true.

305 Kragar  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:50:21pm

You guys ever notice that people who worry about what Charles posts about always have really tiny penises that they never seem to want to talk about. Lets discuss the stigma of needle dicks.

I've got nothing to add on this.

306 lostlakehiker  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:50:41pm

The way the poll is worded it's a trick question. There's legal forms of discrimination, and illegal forms. It is, for example, legal for nightclubs to discriminate against unstylishly attired persons. Me, for instance. I have no clue.

It's legal for restaurants to discriminate against people who cannot afford shoes, or who for some reason choose not to wear them. Same with shirts. Now, is federal intervention in private business OK if it's to stop discrimination which violates no law, if the federal government decides that it doesn't like that sort of discrimination?

That's a different question from this one: is federal intervention in private business OK if it's to stop discrimination which by federal law is illegal?

The answer to the first question must be, of course not. The federal government should enforce the law, no more, no less. The answer to the second question must be, of course. The federal government should enforce the law, no more, no less.

307 Mocking Jay  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:51:01pm

re: #305 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You guys ever notice that people who worry about what Charles posts about always have really tiny penises that they never seem to want to talk about. Lets discuss the stigma of needle dicks.

I've got nothing to add on this.

Dude, stop looking at my crotch.

308 webevintage  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:51:23pm

re: #252 HoosierHoops

I have never heard of a house on Stilts in the woods before...I really like the deck around the whole house.. It looks really cool...Huge windows...beautiful rooms...mmm I just thought about something... I forgot to ask about Internet access...I'm sure there is cable there...right?

Is there a pool for Winston?

BTW, I now privacy issues keep you from showing us the listing on-line that probably has pictures, but I admit I am dying to see what it looks like.
I love clever homes with character.....

309 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:51:32pm

re: #220 vinnievin

Oh for crying out loud. This blog has been chronicling crazy in politics since its inception. That is what we do here.

If you really think that discussion of Paul and Rush and Palin's crazy is not relevant, you seem to be missing out on vast swaths of what is going on.

What is the point of writing a great big public you don't want to hear them criticized post?

Dude we harpoon all nutjobs equally. You will not find the likes of Farrakhan given much love here either. However, Farrakhan is small potatoes in terms of influence compared to the current crazy infesting the GOP.

So if you are not interested in looking at that, you sir have the same option you do with all other media. Watch something else.

310 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:51:48pm

re: #276 LudwigVanQuixote

I hear your point. I have no intention of unfairly slamming anyone. I suppose it is also a regional thing.

Where I grew up in Pennsylvania, we have Klan and all sorts of fools like that. They are not prevalent, but they are around out in the countryside.

We always called them rednecks.

It's not a slam on white folks.

It is however meant as a slam on certain disgusting people. If good foks out there like to call themselves rednecks, then I certainly should find a better word.

But let me be clear. The sorts who question the CRA, the sorts who would drag us back into the worst threads of American history, the Neo-Nazis, the Klansmen, the thinly veiled supporters of them, I have nothing but the most intense contempt for.

I do not dislike them.

I despise them as a cancer on everything I believe America stands for.

I am not inclined to talk of them in any sort of reconciliatory tone or give them the time of day. It is painful to me to even acknowledge that they come from the same species as me. So, when I direct my intense disgust at these repugnant, drooling throwbacks to a more hideous age of injustice and cruelty, what term would you have me use?

I do not want to unfairly splash innocents with my disgust at a very specific class of Anti-American.

Here in AL, "redneck" carries a cdertain reverse pride, and has more to do with rural life experience than anything else. Perhaps the term you are looking for is "shitkicker". See def #6:

[Link: www.urbandictionary.com...]

311 researchok  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:51:53pm

re: #275 vinnievin

I could care less about rand or ron. But if you look back at how many of the last 50 posts have his name in it, you would understand my point better.

I do not support him, nor do I question the civil rights act. Do not put words in my mouth.

I understand exactly what you are saying.

If Charles were beating up on Bill Buckley I'd say you had a point. But the Pauls aren't Buckley.

Truth be told, everyone is being too nice to the Pauls. They ought to be run out of town on a rail. They are everything that is wrong American politics today, in thousand dollar suits.

This isn't a right-left thing. I tend to be center right. I say the same thing about Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi. The difference between them however is that Reid and Pelosi are ashamed of their corruption and try to hide it. The Pauls and their phony piety can't be bothered.

Ron Paul has been flirting with Neo Nazis for years and makes no apologies. Rand flirts from a distance, thinking we don't see.

Ron Paul '90s newsletters rant against blacks, gays

9/11 as a Jewish plot: Angry White Man- The bigoted past of Ron Paul.

312 zora  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:52:04pm

re: #252 HoosierHoops

i've seen some forest home masterpieces in the forest hill neighborhood of dc. they would set you back at least a couple mil.

313 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:52:26pm

re: #305 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You guys ever notice that people who worry about what Charles posts about always have really tiny penises that they never seem to want to talk about. Lets discuss the stigma of needle dicks.

I've got nothing to add on this.

...comment deleted....I had something really off-color and funny to say about this, but I'm self moderating today.

314 Obdicut  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:52:31pm

re: #306 lostlakehiker

That made very, very little sense. The federal government could just pass a law saying that you couldn't discriminate against anyone without a shirt.

I don't think it was a 'trick question', and your explanation of why you think it does doesn't wash.

315 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:52:34pm

re: #220 vinnievin

Vinnie, the recurrent advice we give around here, and it has never been more applicable, is "start your own blog".

316 vinnievin  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:52:53pm

re: #289 Obdicut

Um, yes-- in so far as I believe those categories have meaning. Do you not feel that with things like the GOP denying global warming, pushing theocracy, having fuckers like Rand Paul (and scarier types) as nominees, and the general slide of the GOP towards a theocratic party of white males, that this is a larger problem for conservatives than it is for liberals? The GOP is putting itself farther and farther in the electoral hole, long term, and its abandoning its integrity and values to do so. As I said, I would think this would be a larger concern for a conservative than it would be for a liberal.

I don't think Charles really has hid the fact that he thinks the right wing in the US is out of control in the way the left wing isn't. In fact, he's publicly stated it many times.

Are you one of those 'there's nuts on both sides' people who just always insists the sides must be equal in insanity, in the face of probability, logic, and evidence?

I think there are 'fuckers' on both sides of the aisle, and therein lies the problem. To choose an easy target, Byrd was in place four or five evers, and even in the face of ridiculous outbursts including using the N word, he remained in place until he was way past too old to be of value.

I don't want equal insanity. I don't want a balance of insanity. I want to see a return to sanity. Neither side is doing the heavy lifting. They pit us against each other so that perfectly sane and intelligent people ridicule and condescend each other over issues that, while significant, end up in completely futile banter. I want the development of a strong third party which will return the power to the people. And if the Tea Party isn't the solution, let's find one. But it isn't on the left, nor is it on the right. There is a lot of discontent right now, and a lot of momentum to finding a solution. I don't think sitting on the left or the right does anything significant except maintain the status quo.

I got about five more minutes to defend my opinion, then I have to get off. I'll come back tomorrow morning to defend my beliefs.

317 garhighway  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:52:57pm

re: #306 lostlakehiker

The way the poll is worded it's a trick question. There's legal forms of discrimination, and illegal forms. It is, for example, legal for nightclubs to discriminate against unstylishly attired persons. Me, for instance. I have no clue.

It's legal for restaurants to discriminate against people who cannot afford shoes, or who for some reason choose not to wear them. Same with shirts. Now, is federal intervention in private business OK if it's to stop discrimination which violates no law, if the federal government decides that it doesn't like that sort of discrimination?

That's a different question from this one: is federal intervention in private business OK if it's to stop discrimination which by federal law is illegal?

The answer to the first question must be, of course not. The federal government should enforce the law, no more, no less. The answer to the second question must be, of course. The federal government should enforce the law, no more, no less.

Do you really think the typical Fox News consumer was parsing the survey question that precisely?

318 lawhawk  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:53:08pm

re: #294 garhighway

Again, this isn't just the Post that is reporting as such - all the papers in the NYC metro area are not accurately or fully reporting the story. That includes the Daily News and the NYT. And NBC News.

319 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:53:12pm

re: #224 researchok

Breaking the co-op barrier

N.Y.'s white picket fences: Westchester housing discrimination settlement is a wakeup callYour text to link...

Woman sues co-op for saying: Live with your people

When a Co-op Board Rejects a Buyer

I have some horror stories myself. How, exactly, did the Civil Rights Act of 1968 cause this situation?

320 wrenchwench  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:53:29pm
986 vinnievin 4/22/2010 6:27:07 am PDT

I am about as centrist as one could get, since I can't find a spot farther away from both parties ... I come here mostly for the links.

I am wondering how long the doctor said to wear the neck brace to treat the whiplash this site went through a couple of months ago.

You went through a change yourself. You were registered for a whole year before you posted anything. I wish you would go back to your old self.

321 vinnievin  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:53:34pm

re: #293 publicityStunted

Judging from his past comments, he's far more concerned with drawing a laughably false equivalence between Maddow and Limbaugh.

I thought that one was spot-on.

322 researchok  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:54:49pm

re: #319 SanFranciscoZionist

I have some horror stories myself. How, exactly, did the Civil Rights Act of 1968 cause this situation?

Didn't cause it.

NYC legal bigwigs made sure it wouldn't be applicable.

323 sagehen  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:54:54pm

And then they wonder why black voters go 95% Democrat.

It's a puzzlement.

324 Obdicut  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:55:07pm

re: #316 vinnievin

I think there are 'fuckers' on both sides of the aisle, and therein lies the problem.

Yep. You're a false-equivalence type who has the weirdness to believe both in a simple left-right political axis and a magic 'third position' outside it made of integrity and honesty and buttercheese.

I want the development of a strong third party which will return the power to the people.

This is a great sentence because it could be used to support communism, anarchy, or paleo-conservatism. It means nothing, but sounds good. Like most Tea Party slogans.

325 Kragar  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:55:10pm

Just a subtle hint, rather than coming in whining like a little bitch about what "we're supposed to be talking about", try posting a link to a specific incident and try discussing it.

Of course if acting like a whiny bitch is your cup of tea, then carry on.

326 vinnievin  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:55:39pm

re: #320 wrenchwench

You went through a change yourself. You were registered for a whole year before you posted anything. I wish you would go back to your old self.

That seems to be where I am headed, if not less than that. Just thought I would knock my karma back into the negative for the audacity of having a contrasting opinion before I left. Thanks for playing!

327 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:56:04pm

Hot air comments on this politico article about death threats against politicians....

FBI: Death threats against lawmakers are on the rise

People: Death panels against We the People are on the rise.

ted c on May 25, 2010 at 2:45 PM


....


If I were one of the Reps….I’d resign immediately. Especially if I were a Democratic Rep.

PappaMac on May 25, 2010 at 2:48 PM


.....

“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”
–Thomas Jefferson
...
Rae on May 25, 2010 at 2:49 PM


...

Washington passes “Death Panels” on the people, the people respond

jp on May 25, 2010 at 2:54 PM


...

I wouldn’t be surprised if these gun owners also clutched their bibles on Sunday! I guess if everyone that ones a gun is determined to be mentally unstable, because they own a gun, then guns should be banned. /big gubnut

Me thinks they are softening up the battle field.

trs on May 25, 2010 at 3:03 PM


....

H.L. Mencken said “A statesman is a dead politician. Lord knows, we need more statesmen.”

halfastro on May 25, 2010 at 3:17 PM

Almost every comment is supportive of threatening or killing elected officials. No objections, mo moderation.

328 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:56:44pm

re: #274 Obdicut

True. Let's use hippos, instead. It's hard to tell when a hippo is unsettled, since their reaction to nearly all stimuli is to charge and bite it in half.

Rhinos would be good as well.

329 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:56:50pm

re: #324 Obdicut

Yep. You're a false-equivalence type who has the weirdness to believe both in a simple left-right political axis and a magic 'third position' outside it made of integrity and honesty and buttercheese.


Any party advocating for butterkase would get my hearty endorsement.

330 Obdicut  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:56:51pm

re: #326 vinnievin

You don't have a contrasting opinion. You have an incoherent opinion.

Power to the people, man!

331 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:56:55pm

re: #316 vinnievin

Seems to me like you were already "getting off."

All you're doing now is trying to control how this blog runs and control what people are saying here. Charles is not here for your benefit and neither are most of the members of LGF.

The world doesn't revolve around Vinnievin.

332 Kragar  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:57:37pm

re: #331 Gus 802

Seems to me like you were already "getting off."

All you're doing now is trying to control how this blog runs and control what people are saying here. Charles is not here for your benefit and neither are most of the members of LGF.

The world doesn't revolve around Vinnievin.

THATS NOT WHAT MOMMY SAID!

333 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:58:03pm

re: #279 vinnievin

So you too acknowledge that there is an abundance of criticism for the right here, but not so much for the left?

How troubling did you find the imbalance when it went the other way? And why do you think Charles owes it to you to criticize anyone?

334 cliffster  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:58:06pm

I really wish Charles would quit posting so much about comic books

335 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:58:58pm

re: #326 vinnievin

That seems to be where I am headed, if not less than that. Just thought I would knock my karma back into the negative for the audacity of having a contrasting opinion before I left.

well, thank God you did. it's been one big echo chamber here without you-

336 Obdicut  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:58:59pm

re: #334 cliffster

You dropped this: /

But I saw it.

337 webevintage  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:59:10pm

re: #220 vinnievin

Charles,


You can tell a lot about someone by the topics they continue to talk about. And I have to admit that I was more than a little happy to read your reasons for parting with the right. But what I am having problems reconciling is that you seem willing to jump into bed with the left, or at the very minimum have lost all desire to also be critical of them.

For someone who made their name by calling out the mainstream media, you sure seem willing to be toeing the party line as of late. And again, this is what I deduce not only by what you say but also by what you don't say.

I'm wondering just what you mean by this? What has this blog missed lately? Got a real story, not a FOX narrative, but real story that is being missed.
And I guess I have always assumed that Charles is more concerned with the asshats who seem to have taken over the conservative movement then the asshats on the left since he is not a lefty.

338 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 12:59:14pm

re: #334 cliffster

I really wish Charles would quit posting so much about comic books

You know that's all good. You have the right to not dig those threads.

You might notice though that lots of lizards love them.

339 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:00:04pm

re: #334 cliffster

Assumed sarc ding.

340 cliffster  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:00:10pm

re: #334 cliffster

I really wish Charles would quit posting so much about comic books

And beaches. Always comic books and beaches. Blah blah blah... sheesh.

341 goddamnedfrank  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:00:11pm

re: #248 vinnievin

Fox is the absolute right of the mainstream media. What about MSNBC?

MSNBC is to the left, what's your point? Unlike FOX at least they don't deliberately mislabel scandal ridden politicians' party affiliation for partisan deception, nor have they ever selectively edited out the applause from any President's speech. They may not be balanced, but by comparison they are incredibly fair.

342 Obdicut  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:01:04pm

re: #341 goddamnedfrank

They also have:

Plenty of conservative viewpoints.

343 webevintage  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:01:27pm

re: #340 cliffster

And beaches. Always comic books and beaches. Blah blah blah... sheesh.

AND LOST, why does he allow the LOST comments?
Why.....
/

344 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:01:31pm

re: #341 goddamnedfrank

MSNBC is to the left, what's your point? Unlike FOX at least they don't deliberately mislabel scandal ridden politicians' party affiliation for partisan deception, nor have they ever selectively edited out the applause from any President's speech. They may not be balanced, but by comparison they are incredibly fair.

They did that???

345 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:01:35pm

re: #334 cliffster

I really wish Charles would quit posting so much about comic books

SteelPH downdinged this? Dude. Grow a pair.

346 Obdicut  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:02:20pm

re: #345 Aceofwhat?

He probably just doesn't know Cliffster and thought it was a serious comment.

347 researchok  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:02:30pm

I gotta go to work.

I'm having way too much fun.

348 Kragar  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:02:33pm

I sure hope Charles institutes a sarcasm ban.

349 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:02:44pm

re: #334 cliffster

I really wish Charles would quit posting so much about comic books

It's not just that. He seems to focus only on Marvel Comics. Why is no attention being drawn to DC Comics, or Dark Horse for that matter. There is a very clear bias here, and I find it disappointing.

350 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:03:09pm

re: #348 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I sure hope Charles institutes a sarcasm ban.

Then we'd get an influx of sarcastic flounces!

351 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:03:17pm

re: #322 researchok

Didn't cause it.

NYC legal bigwigs made sure it wouldn't be applicable.

Fair enough.

352 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:03:31pm

re: #340 cliffster

And beaches. Always comic books and beaches. Blah blah blah... sheesh.

and bikes

Books, beaches and bikes. Hmm.

To the chalkboard!!

353 Artist  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:03:38pm

re: #345 Aceofwhat?

SteelPH downdinged this? Dude. Grow a pair.

Done.

354 Obdicut  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:03:46pm

re: #349 Slumbering Behemoth

It's not just that. He seems to focus only on Marvel Comics. Why is no attention being drawn to DC Comics, or Dark Horse for that matter. There is a very clear bias here, and I find it disappointing.

Screw you. You're part of the problem. Nobody in the comic book world is doing any heavy lifting. Charles should be focusing on puppetry.

///////////

355 MrSilverDragon  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:03:50pm

re: #349 Slumbering Behemoth

It's not just that. He seems to focus only on Marvel Comics. Why is no attention being drawn to DC Comics, or Dark Horse for that matter. There is a very clear bias here, and I find it disappointing.

At least he's not schilling Disney straight-to-video movies.

That would be unforgivable.

356 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:03:51pm

re: #349 Slumbering Behemoth

It's not just that. He seems to focus only on Marvel Comics. Why is no attention being drawn to DC Comics, or Dark Horse for that matter. There is a very clear bias here, and I find it disappointing.

I notice not one damned thing from Slave Labor Graphics, for that matter. Where the Hell is Milk & Cheese?

357 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:04:29pm

re: #354 Obdicut

Screw you. You're part of the problem. Nobody in the comic book world is doing any heavy lifting. Charles should be focusing on puppetry.

///

Are we all not sock puppets???

358 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:04:48pm

re: #352 Mad Al-Jaffee

and bikes

Books, beaches and bikes. Hmm.

To the chalkboard!!

You know who else liked bikes?

/

359 webevintage  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:04:56pm

re: #354 Obdicut

Screw you. You're part of the problem. Nobody in the comic book world is doing any heavy lifting. Charles should be focusing on puppetry.

///

But great big ass puppets...not those little wossie kind....
/

360 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:05:19pm

re: #341 goddamnedfrank

MSNBC is to the left, what's your point? Unlike FOX at least they don't deliberately mislabel scandal ridden politicians' party affiliation for partisan deception, nor have they ever selectively edited out the applause from any President's speech. They may not be balanced, but by comparison they are incredibly fair.

eh. i wouldn't go that far. more accurate to say that they may not be balanced, but neither are they relevant...

361 Mocking Jay  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:05:19pm

Not to mention every comic he posts is from the 60's. Why are you so stuck in the past, man?

/

362 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:05:32pm

re: #349 Slumbering Behemoth

It's not just that. He seems to focus only on Marvel Comics. Why is no attention being drawn to DC Comics, or Dark Horse for that matter. There is a very clear bias here, and I find it disappointing.

And he calls it "The Lizard Collectio" but never lets any of us read them!

363 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:05:56pm

re: #326 vinnievin

Why? Seriously why? Normal people who don't find media entertaining just leave. Why bother with the long boring flounce.

This isn't about you having a contrasting opinion or any of that crap. If you wanted to stick up for Rush or Palin or Paul you could have engaged in a debate. If you are not interested in that, then just go. The narcissism here is truly pathetic.

If you don't dig it, then just leave. If the television is showing boring programming, I just change the channel. I don't go on about how persecuted I am that they dare to show something I am not interested in.

If there are a group of folks taking about something that doesn't interest me, I talk to others who are interesting to me. Normal people don't whine at others to entertain them and then sulk as if they are some sort of victim when the group refuses to entertain.

364 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:05:58pm

re: #344 Varek Raith

They did that???

Yeah, someone was posting about it yesterday.

365 Obdicut  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:06:03pm

re: #359 webevintage

But great big ass puppets...not those little wossie kind...
/

Now it's getting all Malkovitch in here.

366 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:06:24pm

re: #364 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, someone was posting about it yesterday.

Crazy...
Gotta go find it.

367 Kragar  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:06:24pm

re: #357 Varek Raith

Are we all not sock puppets???

I consider you my band of buggers.

368 webevintage  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:06:28pm

But I'm telling you, if Charles starts posting about fucking clowns and creepy dolls...I'm outa here baby!!11!!
/

369 freetoken  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:06:30pm

BP continues to fumble the PR ball:

Congressman: BP to cut off live feed of oil spill

370 Mocking Jay  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:06:41pm

re: #361 JasonA

Not to mention every comic he posts is from the 60's. Why are you so stuck in the past, man?

/

Wait...

60's comics...
Rock n' Roll guitarist...

Charles is a secret hippie!

371 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:06:48pm

re: #344 Varek Raith

They did that???

Yeah they did, that was on the threads last night.

372 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:06:49pm

re: #358 Gus 802

You know who else liked bikes?

/

Pee Wee Herman!

373 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:06:55pm

re: #356 Guanxi88

I demand that there be more focus on the violent outbursts of this man!

374 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:07:08pm

re: #346 Obdicut

He probably just doesn't know Cliffster and thought it was a serious comment.

I'd have thought so too, except i've found him to be quite the stealth downdinger. Sometimes, for fun, i'll call that out. Right now it's fun!

375 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:07:29pm

re: #371 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah they did, that was on the threads last night.

Found it.
Yeesh.

376 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:07:51pm

re: #370 JasonA

Wait...

60's comics...
Rock n' Roll guitarist...

Charles is a secret hippie!

Would explain the ponytail.

377 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:08:03pm

re: #353 SteelPH

Done.

Cool. So you really didn't know that was sarcasm?

378 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:08:09pm

re: #359 webevintage

But great big ass puppets...not those little wossie kind...
/

The best "puppet":

[Link: www.google.com...]

379 Obdicut  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:09:50pm

re: #378 Decatur Deb

My preferred puppets below. I really do think they're amazingly expressive, especially given one of them lacks a face.

380 Guanxi88  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:10:23pm

re: #379 Obdicut

My preferred puppets below. I really do think they're amazingly expressive, especially given one of them lacks a face.


[Video]

Those aren't puppets; they're REAL.

381 freetoken  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:10:32pm

Obama to send 1200 troops to border, McCain says it's not enough (to defeat Hayworth?)

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

382 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:10:37pm

re: #365 Obdicut

Now it's getting all Malkovitch in here.

"Craig, I don't find you attractive, but Lotte, I'm smitten with you. I am... but only when you're in Malkovich. When I was with him last night, I was looking into his eyes and could sense your feminine longing..."

383 Mocking Jay  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:10:39pm

re: #378 Decatur Deb

The best "puppet":

[Link: www.google.com...]

I'd link to Avenue Q, but I'm pretty sure everyone's seen that bit already.

384 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:10:56pm

re: #379 Obdicut

My preferred puppets below. I really do think they're amazingly expressive, especially given one of them lacks a face.


[Video]

"Who took out the Hitler building?!"

385 Artist  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:11:13pm

re: #377 Aceofwhat?

Cool. So you really didn't know that was sarcasm?

I have a hard time detecting it without obvious cues. :p

386 Obdicut  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:11:49pm

re: #384 Varek Raith

"Who took out the Hitler building?!"

387 Stinky Beaumont  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:11:58pm

re: #220 vinnievin

If you're not happy with what's appearing at LGF, it takes less than five minutes to start your own blog.

388 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:12:08pm

I'm a fan of Greg The Bunny. Very underrated show about humans and puppets interacting.

389 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:12:10pm

re: #385 SteelPH

I have a hard time detecting it without obvious cues. :p

heh. good on you for taking it back. updinged.

390 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:13:16pm

re: #379 Obdicut

You don't get a lot of Serbo-Croatian puns.

391 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:13:18pm

re: #388 Mad Al-Jaffee

I'm a fan of Greg The Bunny. Very underrated show about humans and puppets interacting.

I remember that. Count A'ight!

392 Kragar  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:13:21pm

Videos still not workting today. A white box opens where it should play, but nothing happens

393 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:14:29pm

re: #392 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Videos still not workting today. A white box opens where it should play, but nothing happens

Did you try re-installing your Flash player?

394 iossarian  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:14:42pm

re: #369 freetoken

BP continues to fumble the PR ball:

Congressman: BP to cut off live feed of oil spill

I'd also like to highlight the fact that the article mentions how BP calculated the cost of human life in its risk assessment practice until 2005. Their spokesman claims that model no longer applies - presumably they now use a different spreadsheet.

395 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:15:02pm

For the Best Good/Bad Puppet: Lady Elaine Fairchild.

396 cliffster  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:15:09pm

re: #385 SteelPH

I have a hard time detecting it without obvious cues. :p

If someone says, "I think liberals have a collective inability to grasp the issues facing us", that's probably the real thing. If they say, "I think liberals are all stupid, and gay, and they stink", probably sarcasm ;)

397 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:15:12pm

OK I want you to know that I am appalled by the amount of coverage that this blog is giving to Beck and Paul and Palin and Rush.

It is almost as if this blog is trying to make these proud patriots look bad. These are brilliant people who are trying their best to save America from socialists, communists, Godless heathens, Atheists, Blacks, Hispanics and Jews. The brave people want very badly to return America to its Christian roots, defeat the satanic lies of Evolution and the Hoax of AGW. They want to prevent America from being part of a UN run new world order that will surely take our rights away right after it taxes us to death and takes out guns. Then they will surely euthanize our grannies!

Charles HOW DARE YOU MOCK THE HEROIC EFFORTS OF THESE GREAT AMERICANS!?! Why can't you point out the left wing conspiracy that placed a foreign born black Muslim traitor as our president?

I know why. It is because you are actually in league with them. You have after all, always been proud of your Zionist pay checks.

If you were at all fair, you would point out that the Left is the winning conspiracy! You would criticize Pelosi as the worst creature in DC! If you loved America more you would understand that it is only Satire to call the first lady a traitorous lesbian wookie!

But no. You are just another sell out to the new overlords!

///////

398 Kragar  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:15:15pm

re: #384 Varek Raith

"Who took out the Hitler building?!"

THAT GREAT RESTAURANT THE BUNKER!

399 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:15:18pm

re: #381 freetoken

Obama to send 1200 troops to border, McCain says it's not enough (to defeat Hayworth?)

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

But he hasn't formally declared war......
/

400 Kragar  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:16:17pm

re: #393 Gus 802

Did you try re-installing your Flash player?

I can watch videos in other sites, just not here.

401 goddamnedfrank  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:16:32pm

re: #344 Varek Raith

They did that???

Yep, last week at his commencement speech to West Point grads.

They also took footage from the campaign of Biden mocking McCain's use of the phrase "the fundamentals of the economy are strong," and edited it to make it sound like Biden had said it himself just this March.

The only reason they still have their FCC licenses is because they're too malignant and bat-shit insane to try to destroy, they're the inoperable tumor of modern media, the North Korea of cable news.

402 Mocking Jay  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:16:42pm

re: #399 Shiplord Kirel

But he hasn't formally declared war...
/

Just getting ready for the Summer offensive.

/

403 Interesting Times  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:16:43pm

re: #394 iossarian

I'd also like to highlight the fact that the article mentions how BP calculated the cost of human life in its risk assessment practice until 2005. Their spokesman claims that model no longer applies - presumably they now use a different spreadsheet.

This guy?

404 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:17:24pm

re: #394 iossarian

I'd also like to highlight the fact that the article mentions how BP calculated the cost of human life in its risk assessment practice until 2005. Their spokesman claims that model no longer applies - presumably they now use a different spreadsheet.

The population has grown--perhaps life is cheaper now.

(To be fair all risk management, even erection of a Stop sign, involves valuation of human life.)

405 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:17:27pm

re: #400 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I can watch videos in other sites, just not here.

Ah, OK.

406 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:17:55pm

re: #392 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Videos still not workting today. A white box opens where it should play, but nothing happens

turn it off and turn it back on?

(gawd i love saying that)

407 webevintage  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:17:58pm

re: #381 freetoken

Obama to send 1200 troops to border, McCain says it's not enough (to defeat Hayworth?)

[Link: www.cnn.com...]


What a fucking surprise.
In a speech Tuesday on the Senate floor, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., said the situation on the border has "greatly deteriorated." He called for 6,000 National Guard troops to be sent to the U.S.-Mexico border.

"I appreciate the additional 1,200 being sent ... as well as an additional $500 million, but it's simply not enough," McCain said.

I'm wondering why those 6000 troops are supposed to come from, don't we have a got amount of them there and in Iraq/Afghanistan?

408 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:18:20pm

re: #395 Decatur Deb

For the Best Good/Bad Puppet: Lady Elaine Fairchild.

One of my favorite SCTV sketches was Battle of the PBS Stars. Julia Child (John Candy) goes into the ring with Mr. Rogers (Martin Short). Julia is winning until Mr. Rogers starts beating her with the King Friday puppet.

409 freetoken  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:18:30pm

PZed found this:

Holy Water Splash Leads to Religious Clash in Pompano School

Bwahhhaaa... two very religious (like Pentacostal) teachers throw "holy water" on atheist teacher. Sounds like a Monty Python skit.

410 Locker  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:18:32pm

re: #396 cliffster

If someone says, "I think liberals have a collective inability to grasp the issues facing us", that's probably the real thing. If they say, "I think liberals are all stupid, and gay, and they stink", probably sarcasm ;)

Hey Spare O Lake says that sort of shit all the time without a hint of sarcasm.

411 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:18:48pm

re: #349 Slumbering Behemoth

It's not just that. He seems to focus only on Marvel Comics. Why is no attention being drawn to DC Comics, or Dark Horse for that matter. There is a very clear bias here, and I find it disappointing.

That's right. He has absolutely none of the tales of the Jedi, and worst of all no Vertigo or independents!

How can we be comic snobs without talking Sandman and Bone and Those Annoying Post Brothers?

Charles, unless you make at least one reference to Cry for Dawn I will know you are nothing but a biased Marvel fan boy!

412 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:18:52pm

re: #369 freetoken

BP continues to fumble the PR ball:

Congressman: BP to cut off live feed of oil spill

I was just thinking we should put that live feed up on the Times Square tv.

413 Mocking Jay  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:19:06pm

re: #401 goddamnedfrank

Heh. And Beck refers to other people as the Nazi propaganda minister...

414 sagehen  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:19:08pm

re: #220 vinnievin

The angry opposition is always crazier and weirder than those who are perfectly happy with current leadership.

During the Bush administration, the angry opposition was on the left. During the Obama administration, it's not.

Seems reasonable to me.

415 lostlakehiker  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:19:34pm

re: #99 RogueOne

So is everyone in agreement that the government has the right to tell bar/restaurant owners whether than can allow smoking or not?

Cities and states have the right to decree that smoking is forbidden in public settings, or to decree that it is forbidden in most public settings but allowed in bars, or allowed out of doors, or any permutation of all that.

I don't see how they would get the authority to outlaw tobacco entirely.

The federal government should leave such questions to the cities and the states, rather than try to be the sole author of law on every conceivable matter. Cities and states can write laws good, bad, silly, or wise. Then we can stand back and watch how they work out. It's a form of parallel processing.

416 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:20:00pm

re: #409 freetoken

PZed found this:

Holy Water Splash Leads to Religious Clash in Pompano School

Bwahhhaaa... two very religious (like Pentacostal) teachers throw "holy water" on atheist teacher. Sounds like a Monty Python skit.

Did she melt?
/

417 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:20:10pm

re: #411 LudwigVanQuixote

And how about some posts on Flaming Carrot, DMZ and The Walking Dead?!

418 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:20:13pm

re: #409 freetoken

PZed found this:

Holy Water Splash Leads to Religious Clash in Pompano School

Bwahhhaaa... two very religious (like Pentacostal) teachers throw "holy water" on atheist teacher. Sounds like a Monty Python skit.

Lol, I would've dropped to the floor screaming, "IT BURNS!!1!!1!"

419 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:20:39pm

re: #410 Locker

Hey Spare O Lake says that sort of shit all the time without a hint of sarcasm.

ugh. take the stinky flame battle back to the overnight thread, thankyouverymuch...

420 webevintage  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:20:45pm

re: #411 LudwigVanQuixote

How can we be comic snobs without talking Sandman and Bone and Those Annoying Post Brothers?

/blockquote>

Yeah!
Where is our nightly Neil Gaiman thread?

421 iossarian  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:20:45pm

re: #404 Decatur Deb

The population has grown--perhaps life is cheaper now.

(To be fair all risk management, even erection of a Stop sign, involves valuation of human life.)

Of course it does. A key difference, though, is whether the decision is democratic (stop signs are installed by local governments) or non-democratic (BP makes money for wealthy shareholders).

Health care, especially end-of-life care, is all about deciding on the appropriate cost of human life. It's not something we can be too squeamish about, and nor should we abandon the decisions to corporations.

422 Kragar  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:21:33pm

re: #418 Varek Raith

Lol, I would've dropped to the floor screaming, "IT BURNS!!1!!1!"

I would have made an evil laugh, "Your faith is weak, primitive monkey things."

423 Bagua  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:21:36pm

re: #369 freetoken

BP continues to fumble the PR ball:

Congressman: BP to cut off live feed of oil spill

I believe it requires two ROVs to produce the feed, one for the camera, and one for the light. Each one on a long control line, with a buoyancy and control chamber, and 5,000 feet to the surface.

While this is good fun for people to speculate wildly on the flow rates and issue apocalyptic nonsense, it does nothing to control the leak. The Top Kill attempt will likely require the use of those ROVs.

The best PR is not providing a live feed for the disaster pron addicts, the best PR is sealing off the leak. They should ignore the ignorant politicians and media and concentrate their resources on the massive sub-sea efforts to contain the blow out.

424 cliffster  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:21:37pm

re: #410 Locker

Hey Spare O Lake says that sort of shit all the time without a hint of sarcasm.

well, it takes all kinds. I like Spare; he does sez it likes he thinks it.

425 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:22:45pm

Watch out. Piss me off and I'll post the cover of Your Hytone Comix.

426 webevintage  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:22:53pm

re: #409 freetoken

PZed found this:

Holy Water Splash Leads to Religious Clash in Pompano School

Sounds like someone has watched a bit too much Supernatural.....

427 Mocking Jay  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:22:54pm

re: #411 LudwigVanQuixote

That's right. He has absolutely none of the tales of the Jedi, and worst of all no Vertigo or independents!

Ulic Qel Droma and Exar Kun were two of the biggest badasses in Star Wars history.

428 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:23:00pm

re: #407 webevintage

What a fucking surprise.
In a speech Tuesday on the Senate floor, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., said the situation on the border has "greatly deteriorated." He called for 6,000 National Guard troops to be sent to the U.S.-Mexico border.

"I appreciate the additional 1,200 being sent ... as well as an additional $500 million, but it's simply not enough," McCain said.

I'm wondering why those 6000 troops are supposed to come from, don't we have a got amount of them there and in Iraq/Afghanistan?

According to certain AlexJonesian conspira-loons, Obama still plans to have his National Security ACORN militia up and running in time to hijack the election in November. Maybe we could borrow some advance units. I think Area 51 is their main training camp, so it isn't too far away.

429 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:23:12pm

re: #407 webevintage

What a fucking surprise.
In a speech Tuesday on the Senate floor, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., said the situation on the border has "greatly deteriorated." He called for 6,000 National Guard troops to be sent to the U.S.-Mexico border.

"I appreciate the additional 1,200 being sent ... as well as an additional $500 million, but it's simply not enough," McCain said.

I'm wondering why those 6000 troops are supposed to come from, don't we have a got amount of them there and in Iraq/Afghanistan?

Please everyone, can we maybe note the additional 1,200 Guardsmen and the additional $500 million the next time someone says the Feds are doing NOTHING?

430 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:23:19pm

re: #415 lostlakehiker

..snip
I don't see how they would get the authority to outlaw tobacco entirely.

They have the authority to outlaw weed, and Lawn Darts (and weed while lawndarting).

431 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:23:28pm

re: #425 Charles

Watch out. Piss me off and I'll post the cover of Your Hytone Comix.

*Varek slowly and meekly backs away*
XD

432 Mocking Jay  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:23:38pm

re: #425 Charles

Watch out. Piss me off and I'll post the cover of Your Hytone Comix.

Just Googled it. Wish I hadn't.

433 lostlakehiker  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:24:23pm

re: #369 freetoken

BP continues to fumble the PR ball:

Congressman: BP to cut off live feed of oil spill

BP is unhappy that the feed, after analysis by independent experts, shows a release of oil on the order of ten times what BP has been saying.

BP has the nerve.

434 Mocking Jay  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:24:31pm

re: #429 SanFranciscoZionist

Please everyone, can we maybe note the additional 1,200 Guardsmen and the additional $500 million the next time someone says the Feds are doing NOTHING?

I'm sorry, but talking point restrictions do apply.

435 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:24:41pm

re: #425 Charles

uncle...

436 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:24:43pm

re: #381 freetoken

Obama to send 1200 troops to border, McCain says it's not enough (to defeat Hayworth?)

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

McCain sez....

"It's simply not enough," McCain said Tuesday on the Senate floor. He called for 3,000 more National Guard troops just for the Arizona-Mexico border.

That would mean a about 10 soldiers for every mile of border. Seems a bit much.

437 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:24:45pm

re: #425 Charles

Watch out. Piss me off and I'll post the cover of Your Hytone Comix.

Eeeeek!
Have you no decency sir!!?

438 Spider Mensch  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:24:50pm

re: #394 iossarian

I'd also like to highlight the fact that the article mentions how BP calculated the cost of human life in its risk assessment practice until 2005. Their spokesman claims that model no longer applies - presumably they now use a different spreadsheet.

I'd like to highlight a little BP history also...
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

I know apples and oranges...but it's all rotten smelling...

439 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:24:58pm

re: #431 Varek Raith

*Varek slowly and meekly backs away*
XD

Some things even the Sith dread...

440 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:25:09pm

re: #433 lostlakehiker

BP is unhappy that the feed, after analysis by independent experts, shows a release of oil on the order of ten times what BP has been saying.

BP has the nerve.

see #423

441 cliffster  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:25:22pm

re: #432 JasonA

Just Googled it. Wish I hadn't.

Likewise. Charles will be hearing from my lawyer

442 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:25:26pm

re: #432 JasonA

Just Googled it. Wish I hadn't.

You poor, poor bastard...

443 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:25:37pm

re: #409 freetoken

PZed found this:

Holy Water Splash Leads to Religious Clash in Pompano School

Bwahhhaaa... two very religious (like Pentacostal) teachers throw "holy water" on atheist teacher. Sounds like a Monty Python skit.

Just read that aloud to the teacher's lounge here at my Catholic high school.

Much laughter.

444 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:26:02pm

re: #421 iossarian

For pure delight, study the Ford decision-making on the Pinto gas tank. It is a masterpiece of risk management, and introduced the variable "Outrage" to the equations.

445 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:26:09pm

re: #410 Locker

Hey Spare O Lake says that sort of shit all the time without a hint of sarcasm.

It's mean to be funny. Which is why you're a spoilsport if you're offended.

446 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:26:11pm

re: #425 Charles

Watch out. Piss me off and I'll post the cover of Your Hytone Comix.

I'm a Crumb fan, go ahead!

447 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:26:15pm

Hey, that's Robert Crumb. This is fine art we're talking about here.

448 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:26:48pm

re: #420 webevintage

Yeah! Where is our nightly Neil Gaiman thread?

Damn straight! OK Poll:

Death was exactly like:

1. Your annoying (but favorite) little sister, who as an adult, still vexes you.
2. That cute goth girl you had a crush on.
3. The coolest hippest chic ever
4. Overwrought and pretentious

449 Bagua  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:26:58pm

re: #433 lostlakehiker

BP is unhappy that the feed, after analysis by independent experts, shows a release of oil on the order of ten times what BP has been saying.

BP has the nerve.

Those estimates are uninformed nonsense. BP has the technology on site, they have a tiny fraction of what BP has.

450 webevintage  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:27:12pm

re: #429 SanFranciscoZionist

Please everyone, can we maybe note the additional 1,200 Guardsmen and the additional $500 million the next time someone says the Feds are doing NOTHING?

Isn't there a list out there that shows what BS the "doing nothing about border security" narrative actually is?

451 Obdicut  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:27:12pm

re: #447 Charles

I can see my copy of that comic from here. It's not in good shape, though.

And at some point someone put a sticker over the offending bit of anatomy, which I peeled off, which means it looks even weirder and scarier in that area.

452 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:27:26pm

re: #416 Slumbering Behemoth

Did she melt?
/

What a world, what a world...

453 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:27:40pm

re: #409 freetoken

PZed found this:

Holy Water Splash Leads to Religious Clash in Pompano School

Bwahhhaaa... two very religious (like Pentacostal) teachers throw "holy water" on atheist teacher. Sounds like a Monty Python skit.

Assault with a magical weapon?

454 Obdicut  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:27:40pm

re: #448 LudwigVanQuixote

Death was:

E) Nicely understated, as compared to Dream and the rest of Gaiman's characters.

455 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:27:58pm

re: #447 Charles

Hey, that's Robert Crumb. This is fine art we're talking about here.

I'm reading his Complete Book of Genesis. I have about 2/3 to go.

456 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:28:28pm

re: #427 JasonA

Ulic Qel Droma and Exar Kun were two of the biggest badasses in Star Wars history.

Dude seriously DUDE! You now have gained about 500 additional Quixote points.

457 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:28:33pm

re: #422 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I would have made an evil laugh, "Your faith is weak, primitive monkey things."

I know some women (mostly black), who would have responded with deadly force if someone deliberately got water on their hair.

458 webevintage  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:28:36pm

re: #448 LudwigVanQuixote

Damn straight! OK Poll:

Death was exactly like:

1. Your annoying (but favorite) little sister, who as an adult, still vexes you.
2. That cute goth girl you had a crush on.
3. The coolest hippest chic ever
4. Overwrought and pretentious

Morpheus was overwrought and pretentious, Death was #3.....

459 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:28:55pm

re: #447 Charles

Hey, that's Robert Crumb. This is fine art we're talking about here.

Absolutely! Do you have much Eisner as well?

460 albusteve  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:28:57pm

re: #381 freetoken

Obama to send 1200 troops to border, McCain says it's not enough (to defeat Hayworth?)

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

why?...is there some sort of problem down there?...and what is enhanced border protection I wonder?

461 lostlakehiker  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:29:06pm

re: #430 Decatur Deb

They have the authority to outlaw weed, and Lawn Darts (and weed while lawndarting).

The federal government outlawed lawn darts? I thought dodgeball with javelins and whaling harpoons was great fun when I was a kid. Everybody did it, and at halftime, half of us were still alive.

I never did understand why they killed that sport. It sure did weed out the quick from the dead.

/libertarian

462 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:29:46pm

re: #443 SanFranciscoZionist

Just read that aloud to the teacher's lounge here at my Catholic high school.

Much laughter.

The Exorcist aside, is holy water actually supposed to do anything?

That's a little too much like magic, isn't it?

463 freetoken  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:30:02pm

re: #436 Killgore Trout

That would mean a about 10 soldiers for every mile of border. Seems a bit much.

Yeah, but Hayworth could position 20 Oathkeepers for every mile! McCain has to compete, you know.

464 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:30:12pm

re: #453 Killgore Trout

Assault with a magical weapon?

At least they didn't use their nuclear option, the frequently invoked but rarely seen "Holy Shit."

465 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:30:16pm

It would be nice to see some Peter Bagge posted here as well. His books are about the only ones I buy these days.

466 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:30:32pm

re: #453 Killgore Trout

Assault with a magical weapon?

Holy Water +3

467 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:30:45pm

re: #458 webevintage

Morpheus was overwrought and pretentious, Death was #3...

For me it was a mix of 1 and 3.

I am right with you on Morpheus. Though he really did grow on me. He had issues you know...

468 Mocking Jay  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:30:48pm

re: #456 LudwigVanQuixote

Dude seriously DUDE! You now have gained about 500 additional Quixote points.

It's a shame the general public gets to see whiny-boy Anakin instead of those two bad motherf*$&ers.

469 Summer Seale  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:31:10pm

re: #409 freetoken

PZed found this:

Holy Water Splash Leads to Religious Clash in Pompano School

Bwahhhaaa... two very religious (like Pentacostal) teachers throw "holy water" on atheist teacher. Sounds like a Monty Python skit.

I'm reading the comments on that page and again, Atheism is being touted as some sort of faith. Amazing. It's beyond me that Atheism is considered as a faith by the morons out there. I suppose that Aunicornism and Atrollism, Aleprechaunism, Abogeymanism, and Aghostism are also "faiths" then.

Who knew?

470 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:31:43pm

re: #448 LudwigVanQuixote

Damn straight! OK Poll:

Death was exactly like:

1. Your annoying (but favorite) little sister, who as an adult, still vexes you.
2. That cute goth girl you had a crush on.
3. The coolest hippest chic ever
4. Overwrought and pretentious

Morpheus would definitely pick 1. Can I have 2-4?

471 albusteve  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:32:39pm

re: #429 SanFranciscoZionist

Please everyone, can we maybe note the additional 1,200 Guardsmen and the additional $500 million the next time someone says the Feds are doing NOTHING?

only words so far....sometimes this stuff goes up in smoke

472 webevintage  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:32:42pm

re: #461 lostlakehiker

The federal government outlawed lawn darts? I thought dodgeball with javelins and whaling harpoons was great fun when I was a kid. Everybody did it, and at halftime, half of us were still alive.

I never did understand why they killed that sport. It sure did weed out the quick from the dead.

/libertarian

Radar Online had the most hilarious article (at one time) about the 10 Most Dangerous Toys of All Times.
Lawn Darts was number one followed by the U-239 Atomic Energy Lab.

473 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:33:28pm

re: #461 lostlakehiker

The federal government outlawed lawn darts? I thought dodgeball with javelins and whaling harpoons was great fun when I was a kid. Everybody did it, and at halftime, half of us were still alive.

I never did understand why they killed that sport. It sure did weed out the quick from the dead.

/libertarian

CPSC forced them off the market, but if you got 'em you can still toss 'em.
The new German air force called their model of one of our fighters F-105, I think, Das Lawndart.

474 Mocking Jay  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:33:31pm

re: #471 albusteve

only words so far...sometimes this stuff goes up in smoke

You never disappoint.

475 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:33:45pm

re: #462 EmmmieG

The Exorcist aside, is holy water actually supposed to do anything?

That's a little too much like magic, isn't it?

I have no idea why you would do that, practically speaking, except that I think there are folk beliefs that it drives out demons.

476 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:33:46pm

My favorite joke that mentions holy water:

Two nuns, Sister Mary Agnes and Sister Mary Vincent, are
traveling through Europe in their car, sightseeing in
Transylvania. As they are stopped at a traffic light, out
of nowhere, a small vampire jumps onto the hood of the car
and hisses at them through the windshield.

"Quick, quick! shouts Sister Mary Agnes, What should we
do?"

"Turn the windshield wipers on. That will get rid of the
abomination," says Sister Mary Vincent.

Sister Mary Agnes switches on the wipers, which knock the
mini-Dracula around. But, he hangs on and continues hissing
at the nuns. "What shall I do now? she shouts."

"Try the windshield washer. I filled it with holy water
before we left the Vatican," replies Sister Mary Vincent.

Sister Mary Agnes turns on the windshield washer. The
vampire screams as the water burns his skin, but he hangs on
and continues hissing at the nuns.

"Now what?!" shouts Sister Mary Agnes.

"Show him your cross," says Sister Mary Vincent.

"Now you're talking!" says Sister Mary Agnes. She then
opens the window and shouts, "Get the fuck off our car!"

477 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:33:58pm

re: #460 albusteve

why?...is there some sort of problem down there?...and what is enhanced border protection I wonder?

Of course Obama is going to use those troops to keep us from escaping as he destroys the country.

478 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:34:20pm

re: #463 freetoken

Yeah, but Hayworth could position 20 Oathkeepers for every mile! McCain has to compete, you know.

Well, if we can combine forces, that's 30 people per mile. Not bad.

479 ryannon  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:35:17pm

re: #432 JasonA

Just Googled it. Wish I hadn't.

Robert Crumb!

480 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:35:19pm

re: #462 EmmmieG

The Exorcist aside, is holy water actually supposed to do anything?

That's a little too much like magic, isn't it?

It carried a very light Indulgence when properly used. Let's not do "Indulgences" before midnight EDT.

481 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:35:30pm

re: #471 albusteve

only words so far...sometimes this stuff goes up in smoke

The fence built out to Yuma, OTOH, is physically there.

482 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:36:14pm

re: #477 Killgore Trout

Of course Obama is going to use those troops to keep us from escaping as he destroys the country.

Don't worry. The lunatics will be quoting posse comitatus before you know it.

483 Varek Raith  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:36:37pm

re: #472 webevintage

Radar Online had the most hilarious article (at one time) about the 10 Most Dangerous Toys of All Times.
Lawn Darts was number one followed by the U-239 Atomic Energy Lab.

Lol.

For a mere $49.50, the kit came complete with three “very low-level” radioactive sources, a Geiger-Mueller radiation counter, a Wilson Cloud Chamber (to see paths of alpha particles), a Spinthariscope (to see “live” radioactive disintegration), four samples of Uranium-bearing ores, and an Electroscope to measure radioactivity.

484 webevintage  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:36:46pm

re: #473 Decatur Deb

CPSC forced them off the market, but if you got 'em you can still toss 'em.
The new German air force called their model of one of our fighters F-105, I think, Das Lawndart.

I LOVED Lawndarts and I never killed anyone....
I do remember that my sister and I were only allowed to play with them if my dad was in the yard with us yelling "God Damnit Julie, move over!!".

485 brookly red  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:36:47pm

re: #478 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, if we can combine forces, that's 30 people per mile. Not bad.

/that sounds like the mileage rating for a T-Rex :)

486 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:36:48pm

re: #454 Obdicut

Death was:

E) Nicely understated, as compared to Dream and the rest of Gaiman's characters.

I think that's the best comment to make about it.

I recently went back to some of the comics from college that I loved so much. Sandman V is for Vendetta and Watchmen. The Watchmen movie inspired me to do so.

They are all very smart. They are all very young. What I mean by that is that to really love them, I think you need a sort of passionate 20 year old anger/sense that you know how the world works and others don't/desire to be rebellious that it is hard to muster in the same way in one's thirties.

These are still brilliant things IMHO. They have tremendous flashes of deep things. But, they are very 20 something. I still love them anyway.

487 Renaissance_Man  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:36:51pm

re: #309 LudwigVanQuixote

Oh for crying out loud. This blog has been chronicling crazy in politics since its inception. That is what we do here.

If you really think that discussion of Paul and Rush and Palin's crazy is not relevant, you seem to be missing out on vast swaths of what is going on.

What is the point of writing a great big public you don't want to hear them criticized post?

He's not saying that. He just wants to see the crazy, insane, far left eviscerated as much as the crazy, insane, far right gets eviscerated. A truly nonpartisan blog would spend as much time focusing on the wacko, extremist, far right politicians, such as the Pauls, as it would on the wacko, extremist, far left politicians. You know, like the President.

Seriously though, the only thing I hear when I read complaints like this is the unstated 'you don't get angry about the same people I hate enough'. A different, but related, argument is the false equivalency one - those on 'my side' (which means, some people who hate the same people I hate) are obviously crazy, but... but... but I still really hate the other side. Can't we get angry at them too? Listen carefully - feeling frustrated at the extreme crazy of one 'side' while simultaneously hating everyone on the 'other side' does not automatically make you a centrist. If anything, it makes you just as partisan, because it means you still see things in terms of 'sides', and us and them.

That, however, is not the most egregious false equivalency. The most egregious one is that focusing on some crazy people on one side of politics somehow makes you 'in bed' with the mainstream media. Just because the 'mainstream media' does not continually hammer on people you don't like does not make them partisan. Just because most mass media outlets won't give you your daily outrage in neatly packaged form does not make them biased propaganda machines of the government. Reading a bunch of blogs to find headlines that give you your Two Minute Hate is not the same as reading widely, and reading the blogs of the 'other side' so you can tut-tut about how misguided and childish they are is not being open-minded.

If what you really want is a quick hit of outrage, that's the beauty of the internet. You can get it easily. You can even get it here if you read at the right time. But getting upset because you don't get it exactly where you want is ridiculous.

488 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:38:14pm

Speaking of magical holy water reminded me of this little cartoon. Be sure to catch the last little bit after the credits roll:

Lesser Evil

489 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:38:16pm

re: #470 SanFranciscoZionist

Morpheus would definitely pick 1. Can I have 2-4?

For the 500th time, If I were not taken and you were not taken, I would so have a crush on you.

490 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:39:29pm

re: #473 Decatur Deb

CPSC forced them off the market, but if you got 'em you can still toss 'em.
The new German air force called their model of one of our fighters F-105, I think, Das Lawndart.

That was the F-104 Starfighter. It was a fantastic performer but had a number of quirky and unforgiving flying characteristics that were very dangerous for inexperienced pilots. The Luftwaffe exacerbated this by using enlisted conscripts as pilots.
The USAF itself disliked the F-104 and made little use of it but the manufacturer, Lockheed, used various "questionable business practices" to win a huge NATO competition and sell it to a number of European air forces.

491 Bagua  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:39:32pm

Another note about this BP conspiracy nonsense because they are correctly removing the video feed.

The top kill being attempted tomorrow could very well result in a massive blow-out. Not unlike the one which destroyed the Deepwater Horizon and killed 11 good men.

No problem from the immediate explosion, only robots are at the sea-bed. But such a blow out would involve a massive gas bubble, the well is about 3,000 to 1 gas to crude. This massive gas bubble would rise to the surface, expanding rapidly, vessels don't float of gas, they float on water. Once the gas bubble dissipated (hopefully without an explosion) the vessels involved would essentially become submarines .

How many men should risk death so that unqualified alarmists can maintain their viewing pleasure?

Any ROV support vessels not required for the top kill should be moved to a safe distance. Period.

492 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:40:15pm
Is federal intervention in private business okay if it’s to prevent discrimination?

Yes, it’s fine to intervene to stop companies from refusing services to everyone: 6.8%

No, the federal government shouldn’t decide whether businesses can select their own customers: 72.5%

Maybe, if a company is discriminating based on sex, color or ethnicity, it should be stopped: 12.8%

Don’t know, it depends on whether service is denied because of discrimination or another explanation: 7.9%

I'm no pollster, but doesn't a poll usually ask the main question and then invite the responder to answer: Yes, No or Not Sure; or Agree, Disagree or Don't Know?
It seems to me that with all the additional qualifiers added to the answers, one may obtain an extremely skewered result.

493 goddamnedfrank  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:41:57pm

re: #360 Aceofwhat?

eh. i wouldn't go that far. more accurate to say that they may not be balanced, but neither are they relevant...

What a nice, thoughtless and dismissive non-sequiter, you really should have informed Rand Paul of this before he committed political seppuku on Maddow's show.

494 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:43:14pm

re: #489 LudwigVanQuixote

For the 500th time, If I were not taken and you were not taken, I would so have a crush on you.

you'd have competition...

495 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:44:30pm

re: #468 JasonA

It's a shame the general public gets to see whiny-boy Anakin instead of those two bad motherf*$&ers.

Well that really is the thing about the Dark Horse series and then KOTOR.

For all of his creative abilities, Lucas created something that he personally was not bright enough to properly explore.

The Sith as black and white and almost comical creatures in their one dimensionality coupled with the perpetually whiny Lucas hero is fine as far as it goes.

However, Sith that are intelligent, and almost seductively evil, where the Darkside has an argument to be made for it, that one must then fight through - coupled with flawed Jedi who struggle with moral questions in a more grown up way is vastly more appealing. Comparing sith training to Jedi training is fascinating if you want to make a mythos out of it.

Also the idea of the Starwars universe being old - deeply old - like Middle Earth, adds a certain gravitas to the whole thing.

Then there is the simple fact that in the movies, Palpatine lacked class and the Jedi lacked balls.

496 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:45:10pm

re: #490 Shiplord Kirel

Yup. even looks like a Lawn Dart.

497 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:45:27pm

re: #493 goddamnedfrank

What a nice, thoughtless and dismissive non-sequiter, you really should have informed Rand Paul of this before he committed political seppuku on Maddow's show.

i can't make heads or tails of this.

498 Mocking Jay  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:47:48pm

re: #495 LudwigVanQuixote

A lot of the Star Wars comics manage to do that. The Clone Wars comic was very good, too, as is Legacy.

499 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 25, 2010 1:51:48pm

re: #498 JasonA

A lot of the Star Wars comics manage to do that. The Clone Wars comic was very good, too, as is Legacy.

I haven't seen the Clone wars Comic. Right now I am collecting Dark Times, Legacy and KOTOR just ended alas.

I am particularly impressed with Dark Times.

500 reine.de.tout  Tue, May 25, 2010 2:06:10pm

re: #285 LudwigVanQuixote

redneck.

I have always called these sorts rednecks.

Also Reine, I was NOT calling you a redneck. You asked the same question as Ace. I call those sorts rednecks. We always called them that when I was growing up.

Oh, LVQ, I knew that.
I just don't happen to think that racism is limited to the South; and my preference would be to call racists "backwards idiots" regardless of where they're from.

501 harlequinade  Tue, May 25, 2010 2:08:52pm

re: #448 LudwigVanQuixote

Damn straight! OK Poll:

Death was exactly like:

1. Your annoying (but favorite) little sister, who as an adult, still vexes you.
2. That cute goth girl you had a crush on.
3. The coolest hippest chic ever
4. Overwrought and pretentious

Um...all of the above ;)

502 Nimed  Tue, May 25, 2010 2:14:32pm

re: #220 vinnievin

So you like this LGF's posts on Israel, Climate Change, white supremacy, but not on the current GOP crazies. And still you decided write a "karma be damned!" post whining about the content of LGF and how sad it makes you.

Boy, you sure are a glass half-empty kinda guy, hu?

503 akarra  Tue, May 25, 2010 2:15:27pm

re: #7 WindUpBird

There are a lot of crazies out there, but as the right-wing blogosphere demonstrates, there are also people who think pushing the right-wing craziness in its worst forms is a good thing as it gets attention. I wonder if some of the people who say the President is the Anti-Christ are of the latter category.

Still, none of this stuff is tolerable, and yeah, I'm scratching my head at the appeal of Rand Paul. If anything, he demonstrates that the Tea Party stuff is at least as nepotistic and insider as they accuse the GOP of being.

504 harlequinade  Tue, May 25, 2010 2:18:40pm

re: #262 researchok

You might have had some legitimate critique- until you wrapped yourself around the Rand/Ron Paul thing because that isn't really a right or left issue. Those are matters of right and wrong. Those are matters about how we define our nation and who we are as a nation.

This is the reason I read, and was over the moon to be able to join, this blog.
I'm as bleeding heart, left wing euro as they come - but I'm more comfortable here than other, more left leaning, blogs because it's not about left and right, it's about right and wrong.

Politics _should_ be noble. It should be something to aspire to. You get into politics because you believe something and you want to make a difference.
Keeping with the comic comments - journalists should all be like Spider Jerusalem (Transmetropolitan). Believers in, and bearers of The Truth.

And I think Charles's hammering of the crazies is about that - Right and Wrong.

And also - this:

re: #487 Renaissance_Man

Seriously though, the only thing I hear when I read complaints like this is the unstated 'you don't get angry about the same people I hate enough'. A different, but related, argument is the false equivalency one - those on 'my side' (which means, some people who hate the same people I hate) are obviously crazy, but... but... but I still really hate the other side. Can't we get angry at them too? Listen carefully - feeling frustrated at the extreme crazy of one 'side' while simultaneously hating everyone on the 'other side' does not automatically make you a centrist. If anything, it makes you just as partisan, because it means you still see things in terms of 'sides', and us and them.

That, however, is not the most egregious false equivalency. The most egregious one is that focusing on some crazy people on one side of politics somehow makes you 'in bed' with the mainstream media. Just because the 'mainstream media' does not continually hammer on people you don't like does not make them partisan. Just because most mass media outlets won't give you your daily outrage in neatly packaged form does not make them biased propaganda machines of the government. Reading a bunch of blogs to find headlines that give you your Two Minute Hate is not the same as reading widely, and reading the blogs of the 'other side' so you can tut-tut about how misguided and childish they are is not being open-minded.

I don't agree with all the commenters on here, and some just get my back up - but for a well balanced, intelligent, not-shrill blog? This is great.

And now my gf is calling me to bed - I have to post and run

505 Fozzie Bear  Tue, May 25, 2010 2:24:41pm

re: #316 vinnievin

It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters. It's the policy that matters.

506 Randall Gross  Tue, May 25, 2010 2:37:29pm

This is from several years of Fox news pimping victimhood to their viewers (conservatives/Christians/Whites/Average americans are under attack from the [terrorists/liberals/atheists/persons of other color/ our own government ] culture wars.... Nobody who's watched FNN a while will see the word "Discrimination" without placing an understood "reverse" in front of Discrimination. Nobody who's watched FNN a long time will see the word "Federal" without a knee jerk negative reaction.

This because FNN cultivates reactionary religious luddites. It's their market niche.

507 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 3:24:22pm

Those that believe the government should prevent discrimination in private business do you also believe in the government regulating free speech, regulating who you associate with and the like because that is the path this leads down.

Rand Paul is following the libertarian tradition of people being allowed to do what they want with private property provided they don't violate the rights of others. He has stated he doesn't think business SHOULD discriminate, but that they should be allowed to if they want to be idiots.

Just because we don't like what someone has to say or does, does not mean they shouldn't be allowed to do it provided they don't violate rights in the process.

This is a basic concept this blog completely glosses over instead resorting to the lowest common denominator and fear mongering that takes place at both extremes.

508 Renaissance_Man  Tue, May 25, 2010 3:33:13pm

re: #507 Cerran


Rand Paul is following the libertarian tradition of people being allowed to do what they want with private property provided they don't violate the rights of others. He has stated he doesn't think business SHOULD discriminate, but that they should be allowed to if they want to be idiots.

You appear to have missed the fact that excluding people based on race, sex, or other arbitrary criteria from a public business is, in fact, a violation of their civil rights. So not only do you not understand the issue, but you also manage to prove yourself wrong. Sprinkle a dash of false equivalency and lack of awareness in your last paragraph and you have your comment.

509 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 4:00:25pm

re: #508 Renaissance_Man

A business is not public, it is private. You seem to have a incomplete understanding of the public versus private definition. If anyone but the government (local, state, federal) owns the business than it is a private business.

It is a violation of nobody's rights for them to choose who they do business with.

510 Renaissance_Man  Tue, May 25, 2010 4:30:12pm

re: #509 Cerran

A business is not public, it is private. You seem to have a incomplete understanding of the public versus private definition. If anyone but the government (local, state, federal) owns the business than it is a private business.

It is a violation of nobody's rights for them to choose who they do business with.

You're wrong. A business transacts in the free market of the public sphere. It does so using public works, public resources such as roads and utilities, and is authorised to do so under the auspices of the government. The regulation and protection of the free market is indeed one of the roles of government, and equality of opportunity in the free market is indeed one of the rights this country chooses to espouse. You appear to be confused as to the function of a government, and what a civil right actually is.

511 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 4:47:32pm

re: #510 Renaissance_Man

You're wrong. A business transacts in the free market of the public sphere. It does so using public works, public resources such as roads and utilities, and is authorised to do so under the auspices of the government.

And it pays to do so under the threat of force, actually, but that is for another discussion. Businesses pay taxes for all of these services and these services are given equally to anyone.

This doesn't mention the fact that these "public services" are forced on people without their consent.

Additionally if the government regulates the market and who may do business in it, it's not a free market.

Back to the topic at hand however...

The regulation and protection of the free market is indeed one of the roles of government, and equality of opportunity in the free market is indeed one of the rights this country chooses to espouse.

Equality of opportunity does not equal a right to the goods and services of others. As the owner of the property the business owner may choose to do business with whoever they want, this is the fundamental right of free action.


You appear to be confused as to the function of a government, and what a civil right actually is.

Not confused at all actually, and in fact there really are no "civil rights" there are only individual rights. The only legitimate function of government is to protect the rights of individuals.

512 Renaissance_Man  Tue, May 25, 2010 5:21:17pm

re: #511 Cerran

Not confused at all actually, and in fact there really are no "civil rights" there are only individual rights. The only legitimate function of government is to protect the rights of individuals.

You can assert that, but the history of legislation in this country says otherwise.

Equal rights of access to public business does not equal a right to have goods and services either. Business owners are free to not transact based on many criteria, including inability of the buyer to pay enough money. However, we as a nation have decided that they are not free to refuse service on some criteria. Indeed, we've decided that to do so violates the rights of the denied individual. And since you feel that's the only role of government, one would think you'd be for it.

It's interesting, almost cute, that you consider public utilities and services to be 'forced' on the public without their consent. One might argue that the willingness of the public to elect government that provides these services implies consent. Or one might say that if you feel the government imposes services and rights on you by force, it seems totally contradictory to suggest that the government solely exists to protect the individual, since one would think that your own, individual rights are absolutely the province of the individual to protect.

But ultimately you are free to believe whatever anarcho-libertarian ideals you wish. The vast majority of people in this country believe otherwise, and have believed otherwise for a long time. It's a shame that you consider any form of regulation or rule on a market to make that market no longer free, because the greatest economic minds of history have always shown otherwise. And it's a shame that you consider the rights of the individual to be somehow paramount over the rights of other individuals. I would ask by what criteria you want to pick the individuals who have rights over other individuals' rights, but I don't think I want to know.

Fortunately, reasonable people have voted and governed otherwise.

513 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 5:34:33pm

re: #512 Renaissance_Man

re: #512 Renaissance_Man

You can assert that, but the history of legislation in this country says otherwise.

Legislative history does not equal moral authority. The ability of the government to violate the rights of individuals is not an argument that supports your position.

It it's wrong for an individual to do it, it's wrong for governments to.

Indeed, we've decided that to do so violates the rights of the denied individual. And since you feel that's the only role of government, one would think you'd be for it.

So in other words rights are arbitrary, meaningless and subject to the whims of the majority. I reject this view and any logical person should also.

It's interesting, almost cute, that you consider public utilities and services to be 'forced' on the public without their consent. One might argue that the willingness of the public to elect government that provides these services implies consent.

May I suggest Lysander Spooner as a reading assignment on this topic. The will of the majority does not imply consent and to suggest that it does ignores the basic principles of individual rights and free action.

And it's a shame that you consider the rights of the individual to be somehow paramount over the rights of other individuals. I would ask by what criteria you want to pick the individuals who have rights over other individuals' rights, but I don't think I want to know.

No I consider the rights of all individuals equal as only individual rights exist.

Please explain how choosing not to do business with someone for any reason violates their rights?

After all the items in a business are my property to do with until I choose to transact with another person.

514 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 5:40:42pm
It's a shame that you consider any form of regulation or rule on a market to make that market no longer free, because the greatest economic minds of history have always shown otherwise.

Groan... please don't tell me you're going to trot out crackpot Keynes and his general theory....

515 freetoken  Tue, May 25, 2010 5:43:27pm

re: #514 Cerran

Groan... please don't tell me you're going to trot out crackpot Keynes and his general theory...

Keynes... "crackpot".... hehehe....

516 Obdicut  Tue, May 25, 2010 5:53:42pm

re: #513 Cerran

Because you're actually part of a nation, not an individual involved in purely autonomous transactions, that's why.

Sheesh.

517 [deleted]  Tue, May 25, 2010 6:03:11pm
518 Reginald Perrin  Tue, May 25, 2010 6:04:50pm

re: #517 Reginald Perrin

Ooops

Please remove my previous post.
My previous post was not meant for here, I was using Charles wonderfu; edoting tools and I sent it to the wrong place

Sorry about that.........

519 swamprat  Tue, May 25, 2010 6:13:24pm

re: #513 Cerran

Businesses are comprised of individuals. Individuals do not have the right to usurp other individuals' rights, even if they use a business as a cover for their chicanery.

/and that includes SEIU amassing on persons' home.

520 Renaissance_Man  Tue, May 25, 2010 6:36:28pm

re: #513 Cerran

No I consider the rights of all individuals equal as only individual rights exist.

Please explain how choosing not to do business with someone for any reason violates their rights?

If you, as part of the public market, choose to operate a business under the auspices of the public market and its overseeing body, you agree to do so under certain terms. Among these terms are that all members of the public body cannot be denied access based on such criteria as race and gender. If you choose to not do business with them based on another criterion, such as them not having enough money, that is within your rights. But we have agreed that it is within their rights to have access to the goods and services a business offers, and to not be denied based on such criteria as race and gender.

You won't agree, of course, because you don't believe that to be a right. You instead believe that only 'individual' rights exist. Perhaps you should clarify what rights you believe exist, since the legal definition of one does not seem to apply to you.

521 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 8:00:01pm
If you, as part of the public market, choose to operate a business under the auspices of the public market and its overseeing body, you agree to do so under certain terms.

What public market? A business is a private affair and they do business with who they choose on a private basis. When did these businesses agree to such terms? Where is the contract they signed to agree to such terms?

Among these terms are that all members of the public body cannot be denied access based on such criteria as race and gender. If you choose to not do business with them based on another criterion, such as them not having enough money, that is within your rights.

Again we are back to your arbitrary definition not based in any solid moral theory but simply on the whims of a supposedly majority opinion. Remember what is wrong for an individual is wrong for the state.

But we have agreed that it is within their rights to have access to the goods and services a business offers, and to not be denied based on such criteria as race and gender.

Who is this we? Certainly I don't see any business agreeing to such terms without signing a contract.

Again you are making a leap without any moral basis or theory, but instead a weak form of appeal to popularity.

Obviously you haven't learned the cardinal lesson that coercive social edicts do not solve pervasive social problems.


You won't agree, of course, because you don't believe that to be a right. You instead believe that only 'individual' rights exist. Perhaps you should clarify what rights you believe exist, since the legal definition of one does not seem to apply to you.

A right is defined by Black’s Law Dictionary as “a power, privilege, (sic) faculty, or demand, inherent in one person and incident upon another … the powers of free action.”

Rights have three conditions:

1) All rights are derived from property IE whoever controls the property has the right to determine what happens to it. In the case of individuals this includes the self.

2) Every right implies a responsibility

3) The only limitation of your rights is the equal rights of others.

If it does not conform to this standard it is not a right.

522 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 8:01:50pm
Businesses are comprised of individuals. Individuals do not have the right to usurp other individuals' rights, even if they use a business as a cover for their chicanery.

How is refusing to sell products they own to someone they do not like a usurpation of their rights?

The person in question certainly has no claim on the product since they have paid no money and done nothing to each said product or service.

523 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 8:02:34pm

re: #522 Cerran

Whoops each was supposed to be earn, I changed my thought mid sentence and didn't catch it.

524 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 8:06:22pm

Just something to point out that in many ways the civil rights act I believe was the wrong way to go about integration. What should have been done was the federal government banning laws forcing the segregation of people and allowing businesses who chose to integrate.

Remember Jim Crow laws were enforced by the state, not by individuals.

Allowing the natural order to progress businesses who failed to integrate would have inexorably been driven out of business by competition from businesses who did.

525 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 25, 2010 8:28:31pm

re: #524 Cerran

Mmmm. Apologist troll. These are good eatin'.

526 Reginald Perrin  Tue, May 25, 2010 9:03:59pm

re: #525 Dark_Falcon

Mmmm. Apologist troll. These are good eatin'.

This one isn't even good for pet food. There is nothing worse than a racist who wants to deny minorities their civil rights.

527 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 9:11:53pm

So what have I said that's racist? Please elaborate and use specific examples.

I have yet to have someone explain how allowing a business to choose who they interact with based on the principles of free action is racist.

What people are proposing here is akin to denying free speech to opposing views, is that really the path you think we should head down?

528 freetoken  Tue, May 25, 2010 9:20:55pm

re: #527 Cerran

What people are proposing here is akin to denying free speech to opposing views, is that really the path you think we should head down?


My, you really are going to play the Paulian double-speak here, aren't you?

The reason your (and the Pauls' and the rest of the libertarian fundamentalists') approach is akin to racism is that race has often, especially here in the US, been the most common cause of exclusion! In some parts of the world the discrimination may be made on the basis of gender or religion, but race is pretty common.

Sorry, but you can't escape history. Your argument is that of the segregationists. Own it.

529 Renaissance_Man  Tue, May 25, 2010 9:27:51pm

re: #521 Cerran

What public market? A business is a private affair and they do business with who they choose on a private basis. When did these businesses agree to such terms? Where is the contract they signed to agree to such terms?

They agreed to such terms when they agreed to obey the law of the land. A business is a legal entity that operates within the public sphere, and like it or not, regulations and laws that govern the interactions in that sphere exist. You can argue (and, indeed, are doing so) that such regulations should not exist, but the fact is that they do.

Again we are back to your arbitrary definition not based in any solid moral theory but simply on the whims of a supposedly majority opinion. Remember what is wrong for an individual is wrong for the state.

Well, that's clearly false. There are many cases where something is bad for an individual yet neutral or beneficial to the state. An obvious example is that of a criminal or traitor - his punishment is bad for that individual, but is a net benefit, or at least no penalty, to the state.

Your conditions that define rights are interesting quotes, but do not intersect with the Black's Legal Dictionary. The first condition sounds very Ludwig von Mises - all rights are property rights. The second is a quote from Rockefeller, I believe, or maybe Uncle Ben. And the third appears to be an assertion based on a moral theory somewhere.

Those may be what you believe a right to be, but let me put this to you: rights do not exist except in the context of what we collectively agree to bestow upon others and ourselves. That's not an appeal to authority - it's a definition by authority. There's no other power, natural or otherwise, that objectively grants rights to humans, individuals, or states, other than that which exists through collective agreement. Examine, if you will, your statements. Why does every right imply a responsibility? If I have the right to own property, do I then have a responsibility to own property? If I have a right to self-determination, do I have a responsibility to make every decision for myself? Why do rights imply responsibilities? Why do property rights exist? If you say you own something, yet I take it away from you, why have your rights been violated? After all, I own that thing now. What, other than your desire, grants you a right to that property?

The ultimate conclusion is that despite what some famous people have quoted, rights exist because we have collectively, through a government or otherwise, granted them to ourselves and to each other. There is no other objective meaning. And it is part and parcel of the agreement we have as a state, that we grant certain powers to the state to arbitrate, and defend, these rights we have granted.

Allowing the natural order to progress businesses who failed to integrate would have inexorably been driven out of business by competition from businesses who did.

Ultimately this is the problem with libertarian dogma. It utterly ignores how the real world works. There's nothing about any 'natural order' that would have things magically occur the way you think they would have. Centuries of segregation and racist practices in countless societies have demonstrated otherwise. If you have even a single shred of evidence to suggest that free markets have cured racism or segregation in the absence of state or religious intervention, by all means, show me.

530 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 9:29:16pm
that race has often, especially here in the US, been the most common cause of exclusion! In some parts of the world the discrimination may be made on the basis of gender or religion, but race is pretty common.

That doesn't follow logic.(unless of course circular reasoning is logic)

You're basically saying It's racist because it's racist.

The argument in front of us is we should limit the right of free association because we don't like someone's views on race.

I find the idea toxic to the ideals of liberty as should any fair-minded person.

People who choose not to associate based on race only punish themselves and as long as they don't violate the rights of others where is the problem?

531 Renaissance_Man  Tue, May 25, 2010 9:33:58pm

re: #530 Cerran


People who choose not to associate based on race only punish themselves and as long as they don't violate the rights of others where is the problem?

Again, you continue to conflate free association with the regulated association of a public business. Furthermore, you insist on making obviously false statements. Someone who chooses not to associate based on race may or may not be harming others. Someone who chooses not to sell based on race is pretty clearly punishing at least one person other than themselves, and that would be the prospective buyer. The interaction with the rights of others is there.

Unless, of course, you insist that race or gender should be a valid reason to restrict access to the free market.

532 freetoken  Tue, May 25, 2010 9:35:36pm

re: #530 Cerran


The argument in front of us is we should limit the right of free association because we don't like someone's views on race.


Sigh... no, it is not. You are pulling out all sorts of phrases from the playbook but it won't work.

There is a long tradition in this country that differentiates a business from an association (such as a private club.)

533 plntlgst  Tue, May 25, 2010 9:39:44pm

I'm a minority, and I completely agree with Rand Paul's statements. How foolish is this argument? Neanderthals? How about getting over the Great White Guilt and moving past race? The liberals make it out to be such a big deal when it's not. They put words into his mouth and they can't actually hit him on any relevant issues, so they go after something he never said. A business would be boycotted out of existence if it tried that today. Stop with the red herring cheap political points and let's talk about real matters of substance, such as the destruction of the Constitution by both major parties.

534 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 9:41:53pm
Well, that's clearly false. There are many cases where something is bad for an individual yet neutral or beneficial to the state. An obvious example is that of a criminal or traitor - his punishment is bad for that individual, but is a net benefit, or at least no penalty, to the state.

I said wrong, as in morally wrong, not bad.

rights do not exist except in the context of what we collectively agree to bestow upon others and ourselves.

False, unless of course you are going to argue that people don't have the right to life unless the collective agrees.

This claim fails every reasonable moral test almost instantly.

Why does every right imply a responsibility?

Because exercising those rights require you understand how they impact the equal rights of others.

If I have the right to own property, do I then have a responsibility to own property?

No, rights imply responsibility, remember. The responsibility is that ownership of property does not violate the equal rights of others in some way.

If I have a right to self-determination, do I have a responsibility to make every decision for myself? Why do rights imply responsibilities?

You have a right to self determination, and if you make decisions for yourself you have a responsibility that those decision do not violate the rights of others. You seem to be going a little on the absurd side here.

Why do property rights exist? If you say you own something, yet I take it away from you, why have your rights been violated? After all, I own that thing now. What, other than your desire, grants you a right to that property?

Actually quite simple property is gained either through mutual trade or exchange or by mixing your labor with raw goods, land or materials not owned by someone else.

So basically it boils down to you don't believe in natural rights or liberty, but rather the power of the state? What do you believe to be the foundation of rights?

535 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, May 25, 2010 9:45:46pm

KOOKS, SHOW YOUR TRUE COLORS!! DOWNDING THIS POST!!

536 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 9:46:26pm
Again, you continue to conflate free association with the regulated association of a public business. Furthermore, you insist on making obviously false statements. Someone who chooses not to associate based on race may or may not be harming others. Someone who chooses not to sell based on race is pretty clearly punishing at least one person other than themselves, and that would be the prospective buyer. The interaction with the rights of others is there.

Unless, of course, you insist that race or gender should be a valid reason to restrict access to the free market.

If there is not freedom of association and trade even based on immoral ideals such as racism than there is no free market and the claim of freedom/liberty is an illusion.

537 Reginald Perrin  Tue, May 25, 2010 9:48:06pm

re: #533 plntlgst

You wasted you first comment on that post.
*yawn*

It's cute how you got your fellow troll to vote you up.

DF:
Put some extra charcoal in the fire, we got two trolls to grill tonight. Do we have enough sauce for two?

538 swamprat  Tue, May 25, 2010 9:49:23pm

re: #533 plntlgst

Posting crap so you can point to it no longer works because you have to explain the little red number next to it.

539 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 9:52:18pm
If you have even a single shred of evidence to suggest that free markets have cured racism or segregation in the absence of state or religious intervention, by all means, show me.

Then why without legislation were there many businesses in states without Jim Crow laws that were integrated? It would seem that based on history markets do mitigate racism.

You cannot "cure racism" with the power of the state as evidenced that it still exists today albeit in a much more limited scope.

The only real thing that needed to take place was the elimination of Jim Crow laws and allowing businesses to choose to integrate.

540 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 9:55:49pm

re: #537 Reginald Perrin

It would seem that you're the one trolling here, not me as you have yet to add anything remotely constructive to the discussion.

At least Renaissance_Man is actually having an actual debate rather than resorting to a childish ad hominem fest.

541 swamprat  Tue, May 25, 2010 9:56:51pm

re: #530 Cerran

So businesses should be allowed to violate human rights that individuals should not be allowed to violate?

?Que?

Does your mother know you are this stupid?

Are you so far up rand pauls' butt that you will defend his every utterance no matter how insane?
We have some commenters here that way about SEIU. Do you think that SEIU has the right to intimidate a private citizen? Think about this very carefully.

542 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 9:58:24pm
Do you think that SEIU has the right to intimidate a private citizen?

No they don't. It's a violation of that individual's right to privacy and security.

543 Reginald Perrin  Tue, May 25, 2010 9:59:27pm

re: #539 Cerran

The only real thing that needed to take place was the elimination of Jim Crow laws and allowing forcing businesses to choose to integrate.
FTFY

544 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 10:00:35pm

re: #543 Reginald Perrin

The only real thing that needed to take place was the elimination of Jim Crow laws and allowing forcing businesses to choose to integrate.
FTFY

And somehow I'm trolling? Interesting....

545 swamprat  Tue, May 25, 2010 10:00:55pm

Trolls, working together, posting on a dead thread late at night.

Man, that has been done to death.

Got anything new?

546 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 10:02:19pm

I have to wonder if any of you have actually read what Rand Paul said rather than just taken a hack job op-ed 's word for it.

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

547 swamprat  Tue, May 25, 2010 10:06:39pm

re: #542 Cerran

No they don't. It's a violation of that individual's right to privacy and security.

You're absolutely right, Ollie!
And that makes your stance untenable.
Don't play chess, guy.

And I saw the interview, I don't need to read the spin.

Who am I going to believe; your link, or my own two lyin' eyes?

/hattip Richard Pryor

548 Reginald Perrin  Tue, May 25, 2010 10:08:21pm

re: #544 Cerran

And somehow I'm trolling? Interesting...


Yes you are a troll, you have negative lifetime karma, you are racism apologist and you are spamming the bottom of an old thread.
Three strikes and you are called out.

I am not going to feed you, you're starved for attention and should be ignored. It's better to let you go on defending racism, you won't be here much longer unless you change.

Have you no shame, Sir?

549 swamprat  Tue, May 25, 2010 10:09:41pm

Good this is brutal.

I've cut off both your arms!


A mere fleshwound!

I suck at debating and this is not even close.

Go for it guys, I have laudry to finish.

Troll away!

550 Renaissance_Man  Tue, May 25, 2010 10:11:31pm

re: #534 Cerran

Actually quite simple property is gained either through mutual trade or exchange or by mixing your labor with raw goods, land or materials not owned by someone else.

So basically it boils down to you don't believe in natural rights or liberty, but rather the power of the state? What do you believe to be the foundation of rights?

You didn't even answer the question. I asked, what grants you a right to the hypothetical property that I just took from you? Your answer was something canned about how to gain property.

I told you what the foundation of rights is. Rights exist through what we collectively agree to grant ourselves and others, whether that be through a state, a government, or however we choose to collectively agree. It's the only definition that has meaning. Any other definition is either tautological, or says nothing.

For instance, 'I have the right to life.' What does that statement say that is not equally stated by 'I am alive'? Does having a right to life mean that I cannot be killed? Clearly not. Does having a right to life mean that I should not be killed? If it does, then a 'right' is nothing more than a statement of what 'should' happen. In which case, it doesn't exist at all save in hypotheticals and wishes.

Because exercising those rights require you understand how they impact the equal rights of others.

No it doesn't. Again, the 'right to life'. I exercise this right by being alive. Does being alive require me to understand how my life impacts other lives? It doesn't. For starters, it's impossible for me to fully, completely understand every possible way in which my life impacts every other life around me. But even if full, complete understanding isn't required, I'm not 'required' to understand anything about how my life impacts other lives. I can go through life blissfully unaware of anything outside my own head. In fact, were I to be in a coma, or an Objectivist, I would in fact be doing exactly that, yet still exercising my 'right to life'. So, I ask again, if you think rights have any natural source other than that which we collectively grant, why do rights imply responsibilities? And why do you have a right to property?

If there is not freedom of association and trade even based on immoral ideals such as racism than there is no free market and the claim of freedom/liberty is an illusion.

Well, we've shown that you believe any form of regulation on a market makes that market no longer free. So I suppose by your definition, freedom is an illusion and the free market does not exist. Obviously, the truth is that freedom is a spectrum that lies between total animalistic anarchy and rigid, unyielding tyranny. That doesn't tend to make a good dogmatic quote though.

Then why without legislation were there many businesses in states without Jim Crow laws that were integrated? It would seem that based on history markets do mitigate racism.

Firstly, you continue to make assertions without providing evidence. Secondly, just because some businesses chose to integrate proves nothing about it being the influence of 'the market'. It definitely doesn't prove that competition drove all businesses that did not integrate out of business. So again - if you have evidence to suggest that market forces have removed racism and segregation without state or religious influence, by all means, show me.

551 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 10:14:00pm

re: #548 Reginald Perrin

Yes you are a troll, you have negative lifetime karma, you are racism apologist and you are spamming the bottom of an old thread.
Three strikes and you are called out.

I am not going to feed you, you're starved for attention and should be ignored. It's better to let you go on defending racism, you won't be here much longer unless you change.

Have you no shame, Sir?

A libertarian with "negative lifetime karma" on a solidly leftist board. Shocker! You're 12 I take it?

Again you have yet to provide any evidence I'm a "racism" (At least try to use english mmmkay...) and as far as anyone with a decent grasp of debate can tell you're the only one trolling here.

552 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 10:15:04pm

Next thing you know Gizmo over here will start saying that evolution relies on faith.

553 swamprat  Tue, May 25, 2010 10:15:57pm

re: #547 swamprat
Ollie= Laurel and Hardy reference

re: #549 swamprat
Good = God

laudry=laundry

Good night lizards and Paulbots!

554 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 10:16:27pm
555 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 25, 2010 10:24:21pm

re: #551 Cerran

Reggie is more mature than you'll ever be, and this isn't a lefty board.

I smell socks...

556 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 10:42:05pm
You didn't even answer the question. I asked, what grants you a right to the hypothetical property that I just took from you? Your answer was something canned about how to gain property.

My bad however my explanation should suffice, with the exception of the self which you are automatically a self-owner, property ownership is acquired through mutual trade/sale or mixing your labor with raw materials, land not currently owned by someone else.

I told you what the foundation of rights is. Rights exist through what we collectively agree to grant ourselves and others, whether that be through a state, a government, or however we choose to collectively agree.

So it's completely arbitrary in your view, due to change on a whim?

It's the only definition that has meaning. Any other definition is either tautological, or says nothing.

Not true several philosophers have made great arguments which I'm not about to re-hash here for the existence of Natural rights.

For instance, 'I have the right to life.' What does that statement say that is not equally stated by 'I am alive'?

The right to life is inherent in your person and cannot be taken away from you. Yes someone can deprive you of your life, but not of your right to life.

Does having a right to life mean that I cannot be killed? Clearly not. Does having a right to life mean that I should not be killed? If it does, then a 'right' is nothing more than a statement of what 'should' happen. In which case, it doesn't exist at all save in hypotheticals and wishes.

So you don't believe in morality?

After all morality is a basis of how things should go, not necessarily how they do.

557 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 10:52:17pm

re: #524 Cerran


Allowing the natural order to progress businesses who failed to integrate would have inexorably been driven out of business by competition from businesses who did.

You don't know much about history, do you?

558 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 10:52:54pm

re: #527 Cerran

So what have I said that's racist? Please elaborate and use specific examples.

I have yet to have someone explain how allowing a business to choose who they interact with based on the principles of free action is racist.

What people are proposing here is akin to denying free speech to opposing views, is that really the path you think we should head down?

Actually, no one is 'proposing' anything, we are discussing the law of the land. The law of the land for quite some time.

559 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 10:53:28pm

One thing I learned from all this was something I was unaware of: that opposition of the Civil Right Act is the Libertarians' Unicorn.

They can argue all they want but the facts remain that it was not only a good thing for this nation but will remain in place as long as their is this republic.

If anything it should be widened to include sexual and gender identity as well as sexual preference.

560 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 10:55:39pm

re: #542 Cerran

No they don't. It's a violation of that individual's right to privacy and security.

But a big sign in a window saying "No Blacks, No Dogs" is not intimidating at all...

561 swamprat  Tue, May 25, 2010 10:56:40pm

re: #556 Cerran

Do you believe that owning a business gives a person the right to violate a persons' rights?
Or does the business itself have the right to violate a persons'
rights?
What if the business is owned by one person alone with no employees? Does his circumstance entitle him to be in the position to violate a persons' rights?

At what point do you see how ridiculous this is?

I have to sleep. I don't think you are a bad person, but I don't believe you have thought this through. Rand Paul either mispoke or got busted. To defend his point on this matter is folly.

Good night, guy.

562 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 25, 2010 10:57:03pm

re: #552 Gus 802

Next thing you know Gizmo over here will start saying that evolution relies on faith.

I believe I can fly...

563 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:05:48pm

re: #557 SanFranciscoZionist

You don't know much about history, do you?

I know quite a lot about history, enough to know that Jim Crow laws were the primary instrument in preventing integration in many areas especially the south. It's no accident that areas with no Jim Crow laws had integration and were moving away from racism.

I have no respect for racists and think they are immoral bastards and I would not frequent their business, however it is their right to be racists.

564 Renaissance_Man  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:06:27pm

re: #556 Cerran

So you don't believe in morality?

After all morality is a basis of how things should go, not necessarily how they do.

I do believe in morality. I don't believe that a statement of what something 'should' be is equivalent to a statement of something that 'is'. In other words, a 'right to liberty' that essentially states 'all humans should have liberty' is not the same as 'all humans have liberty'. The second is a statement of fact, an truth, an inalienable right. The first is a statement of wish, of what should be, and has no existence outside of that wish, unless we collectively choose to grant and recognise it.

The right to life is inherent in your person and cannot be taken away from you. Yes someone can deprive you of your life, but not of your right to life.

So I can be dead, but still have a right to life? What is that right then? Why is it inherent in the person? And yes, as you say, philosophers have made arguments for the existence of Natural Rights. Hobbes and Locke leap to mind. But I've already read Hobbes and Locke. And I find their arguments wanting, because they continue to conflate 'is' with 'should', as described above. You should read David Hume's condemnation of the is-ought fallacy. At the very least, if you want to debate or demonstrate any understanding of what you're arguing about, you should paraphrase what you understand those philosophers arguing for Natural Rights to be saying, rather than assuming they're right.

My bad however my explanation should suffice, with the exception of the self which you are automatically a self-owner, property ownership is acquired through mutual trade/sale or mixing your labor with raw materials, land not currently owned by someone else.

You stil aren't answering the question. That's how you say you get ownership of property. But why does that give you the right to property? If ownership of property gives you the right to own property, then the 'right to property' is nothing more than a tautology. Furthermore, if I then take that property away from you, I now have the right to that property, quod erat demonstrandum. So why do you have the 'right to property'? What intrinsic law of nature gives you the right to own property, and makes this right impossible to take away, even if the property is taken away? More specifically, what is it about that 'right to property' that makes it more natural than a civil right granted through collective agreement?

I know what von Mises would say. I wonder if you understand the issue well enough to answer.

565 Renaissance_Man  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:10:37pm

re: #563 Cerran

I know quite a lot about history, enough to know that Jim Crow laws were the primary instrument in preventing integration in many areas especially the south. It's no accident that areas with no Jim Crow laws had integration and were moving away from racism.

I have no respect for racists and think they are immoral bastards and I would not frequent their business, however it is their right to be racists.

If you have any evidence to show that market forces alone have driven most or all segregated businesses out of business without legal or religious involvement, it's time to show it or drop it. Otherwise your assertions remain nothing more than dogma. And repeating something doesn't make it true.

Furthermore, nobody is saying people do not have the right to be racists. Nobody has ever said that. It is the conflation that exists in the heads of those that don't understand the argument, which is that people have the right to be racists, but that right ends when they transact with other individuals in the public sphere.

566 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:10:45pm

re: #561 swamprat

Do you believe that owning a business gives a person the right to violate a persons' rights?

No. But as a business owner they should have the right to sell to whoever they choose and deny service to whoever they choose for any reason. They own the business and that is their right.

Or does the business itself have the right to violate a persons'
rights?

No, never claimed otherwise.

What if the business is owned by one person alone with no employees? Does his circumstance entitle him to be in the position to violate a persons' rights?

See above.

At what point do you see how ridiculous this is?

Except there seems to be a break here that somehow forcing the business owner to do business with someone he doesn't want to doesn't violate his rights. Even when the government violates individual rights it's still wrong.

I have to sleep. I don't think you are a bad person, but I don't believe you have thought this through. Rand Paul either mispoke or got busted. To defend his point on this matter is folly.

Actually I have thought this through in great detail. But perhaps a more thorough discussion is in order.

Good night, guy.

Night, and thanks for being civil and trying for an honest debate.

567 Reginald Perrin  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:16:19pm

re: #563 Cerran

I have no respect for racists and think they are immoral bastards and I would not frequent their business, however it is their right to be racists.

It is against the law to violate a minorities' civil rights.
What don't you get?

568 Cerran  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:20:51pm

Renaissance_Man I'll try to continue the discussion/debate tomorrow after work if you are still interested. Have to head to bed, early day tomorrow.

569 Gus  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:22:00pm

re: #563 Cerran

I know quite a lot about history, enough to know that Jim Crow laws were the primary instrument in preventing integration in many areas especially the south. It's no accident that areas with no Jim Crow laws had integration and were moving away from racism.

I have no respect for racists and think they are immoral bastards and I would not frequent their business, however it is their right to be racists.

Where would you draw the line in the fantasy of yours? Do you believe it would be within the right of a business owner to:

1. Deny blacks (or any other minority) access to a private ambulance?
2. Deny blacks (or any other minority) access to emergency medical treatment in a private medical clinic?
3. Deny blacks (or any other minority) access to private medical treatment?

There can be many more example. Say you have a black family living in a small community. Are you telling me the only private medical provider should be allowed to discriminate forcing them to drive 100s of miles to get treatment?

570 Renaissance_Man  Tue, May 25, 2010 11:22:07pm

re: #567 Reginald Perrin

It is against the law to violate a minorities' civil rights.
What don't you get?

Well, in his view, that civil right doesn't exist. Only the rights of the individual exist, the most important of which is the right to property. So the racist can't be violating civil rights, because civil rights don't exist.

This is, of course, wrong. And if it's an inaccurate representation of the libertarian position, by all means correct me and I will unreservedly withdraw it. But I'm pretty sure it's accurate. And still wrong.

571 RogueOne  Wed, May 26, 2010 3:38:08am

re: #569 Gus 802

Where would you draw the line in the fantasy of yours? Do you believe it would be within the right of a business owner to:

1. Deny blacks (or any other minority) access to a private ambulance?
2. Deny blacks (or any other minority) access to emergency medical treatment in a private medical clinic?
3. Deny blacks (or any other minority) access to private medical treatment?

There can be many more example. Say you have a black family living in a small community. Are you telling me the only private medical provider should be allowed to discriminate forcing them to drive 100s of miles to get treatment?

I keep seeing this strawman. Could someone, anyone, point out where in this country there is a truly "private" hospital? There is no such animal.

Secondly I'd like to point out, again, that government intervention is what caused the problem (Jim Crow laws) to begin with. If the state and federal governments had kept out it integration would have happened decades earlier. Government action is not a panacea to all our problems and as a matter of course tend to make things worse rather than better.

572 RogueOne  Wed, May 26, 2010 3:40:09am

Sorry, should have mentioned I have to hit and run. I'm certain we'll still be arguing philosophy tomorrow....

573 Obdicut  Wed, May 26, 2010 7:19:24am

re: #571 RogueOne

I keep seeing this strawman. Could someone, anyone, point out where in this country there is a truly "private" hospital? There is no such animal.

Sure there is, Rogue.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Private, for-profit hospitals.

It'd be better, when arguing this subject, if you knew stuff like that.

574 Obdicut  Wed, May 26, 2010 7:47:11am

re: #571 RogueOne

Oh, and in areas without Jim Crow laws, did integration in fact happen quicker? Please provide an example.

575 RogueOne  Wed, May 26, 2010 8:21:52am

Obdi,

I asked where in this country is there a private hospital. You provided a link that mentions private hospitals out of country but none here. Maybe you should understand the subject matter before you make an argument. Stop being condescending and wrong, it's irritating.

Jim Crow laws were passed to keep businesses from integrating. Do I need to draw you a picture so you can connect the dots?

576 Urinal Gum  Wed, May 26, 2010 2:01:46pm

If we have the right to discriminate against businesses based upon the race, sex, or other characteristics of their owners/workers, then why shouldn't they be allowed to do the same for their customers?

/derp

577 Renaissance_Man  Wed, May 26, 2010 3:22:58pm

re: #575 RogueOne

Obdi,

I asked where in this country is there a private hospital. You provided a link that mentions private hospitals out of country but none here. Maybe you should understand the subject matter before you make an argument. Stop being condescending and wrong, it's irritating.

You didn't even read the link. The link states:

As of December 31, 2006, HCA operated 173 hospitals and 107 freestanding surgery centers located in 20 states and London, England.

It then goes on to list 12 of those hospitals in the US by name. And those are just the private hospitals and surgeries run by one health corporation. There are not only many more for profit, private hospitals, but many, many more medical practices that are equally private and take no government money at all (because they don't take VA or Medicare patients). Should those practices have the same 'right' to refuse service based on colour or gender?

Seriously, you asked for proof of private hospitals in this country. Someone gave you a link that named 12 of them. You then got angry and insisted that hospitals such as the 'Regional Medical Center of San Jose' in San Jose, California, were actually outside the country. If you're going to get angry, it helps to not be provably wrong.

578 Obdicut  Wed, May 26, 2010 9:05:40pm

re: #575 RogueOne

Read the fucking link next time, Rogue.

579 Gus  Wed, May 26, 2010 9:23:11pm

re: #571 RogueOne

I keep seeing this strawman. Could someone, anyone, point out where in this country there is a truly "private" hospital? There is no such animal.

Secondly I'd like to point out, again, that government intervention is what caused the problem (Jim Crow laws) to begin with. If the state and federal governments had kept out it integration would have happened decades earlier. Government action is not a panacea to all our problems and as a matter of course tend to make things worse rather than better.

You're not a pragmatist or realist are you Rogue. You would have to be rather naive to think that if there was no government intervention that desegregation would have occurred faster without them.

The fact is that you sometimes have to legislate morality and the needs of the many outweigh the bizarre notion that any private business can discriminate against people because of the color of their skin, race, ethnic identity and religion.

Yes, there is something else that's missing from this conversation and it's religion. To defend this notion of freedom to discriminate means that you would be fine with a store putting up a sign that read "No Juden." In other words the rights of some damn bigot is more important than any ethnic community that may fall victim to the archaic practice we left behind many decades ago.

It's not a strawman, it's the logical conclusion to this backwards way of thinking. The CRA stands and this unicorn like fantasy of reversing Title II will not only remain a fantasy but be expanded to include sexual identity and sexual preference -- as it should.

580 RogueOne  Thu, May 27, 2010 3:31:37am

re: #577 Renaissance_Man

It then goes on to list 12 of those hospitals in the US by name. And those are just the private hospitals and surgeries run by one health corporation. There are not only many more for profit, private hospitals, but many, many more medical practices that are equally private and take no government money at all (because they don't take VA or Medicare patients). Should those practices have the same 'right' to refuse service based on colour or gender?

Seriously, you asked for proof of private hospitals in this country. Someone gave you a link that named 12 of them. You then got angry and insisted that hospitals such as the 'Regional Medical Center of San Jose' in San Jose, California, were actually outside the country. If you're going to get angry, it helps to not be provably wrong.

Wow. Do we really have to have a small class on the difference between publicly traded and private corporations? Privately traded does not mean a "private" hospital. I'm still waiting for someone to show me one "Private" hospital in the U.S. All the snark you two are throwing aside, neither of you can do it. That's twice Obdi that you've been wrong and continued to argue with nothing but snark.

581 RogueOne  Thu, May 27, 2010 3:43:05am

re: #579 Gus 802

Gus, we obviously disagree about the necessity of the federal government to intervene in what I consider peoples private dealings with each other. I would like to at least mention I appreciate and understand your argument even though I believe it to be wrong. You brought up religion so let me explain my stance on the morality of the situation.

I don't like racists but I don't see this as strictly a racial issue. It's an issue about the freedom of the people to deal with others as they see fit. I don't believe my moral beliefs should compel others to do exactly as I say just because I'm part of the majority. Look at it from the flip side. For example, lets say Charles starts his own photography side business and a bigoted church leader came to him wanting him to film a Klan rally for some propaganda pieces. If he refused it could easily be argued that he is violating their civil rights. Under your theory of government the feds would be within their rights to either force him to do something he vehemently doesn't want any part of or face jail and a fine. I think that's wrong, immoral and wrong. Forcing people to accept others is, IMHO, misguided.

I don't think anyone in the political realm is saying the law should be reversed. I'm arguing philosophy not politics.

582 Gus  Thu, May 27, 2010 3:59:52am

re: #581 RogueOne

Gus, we obviously disagree about the necessity of the federal government to intervene in what I consider peoples private dealings with each other. I would like to at least mention I appreciate and understand your argument even though I believe it to be wrong. You brought up religion so let me explain my stance on the morality of the situation.

I don't like racists but I don't see this as strictly a racial issue. It's an issue about the freedom of the people to deal with others as they see fit. I don't believe my moral beliefs should compel others to do exactly as I say just because I'm part of the majority. Look at it from the flip side. For example, lets say Charles starts his own photography side business and a bigoted church leader came to him wanting him to film a Klan rally for some propaganda pieces. If he refused it could easily be argued that he is violating their civil rights. Under your theory of government the feds would be within their rights to either force him to do something he vehemently doesn't want any part of or face jail and a fine. I think that's wrong, immoral and wrong. Forcing people to accept others is, IMHO, misguided.

I don't think anyone in the political realm is saying the law should be reversed. I'm arguing philosophy not politics.

Rogue, I've been up all night worrying about live so I probably shouldn't delve into this too much but I think I can see your point. If the law is taken too literally it can create moral traps such as you describe. That is having the reverse effect, especially on a per case basis. This has led to a lot of frivolous lawsuits which as we know is the cause of the proverbial clogging of the courts. There should be room for the nuances.

Anyway, I was watching some videos here and when I saw you updinged my response it made me smile. Sorry for pestering you on this and I apologize for derisively calling you a Paulian the other day. I'm sure if we weren't limited to the written word we could each explain ourselves more clearly.

583 Gus  Thu, May 27, 2010 4:02:06am

re: #582 Gus 802

There I go again. I was up all night worrying about life not live.

584 Renaissance_Man  Thu, May 27, 2010 5:23:59am

re: #580 RogueOne

Wow. Do we really have to have a small class on the difference between publicly traded and private corporations? Privately traded does not mean a "private" hospital. I'm still waiting for someone to show me one "Private" hospital in the U.S. All the snark you two are throwing aside, neither of you can do it. That's twice Obdi that you've been wrong and continued to argue with nothing but snark.

Then clearly we don't understand what you mean by 'private'. I'm not exactly sure you do either, but by all means, tell us. The business definition of a 'private' corporation is one that is not publicly traded, which would include a majority of medical practices and hospitals. In medical terms, a private hospital is one that is owned by a for-profit, or non-profit, company, and where the payments for service come from patients themselves or insurance companies (or foreign embassies). Again, this hospital business model is common in the US.

Those are the two definitions of private company/private hospital that are used. In both cases, many exist in the United States. If there's a different, libertarian, definition of 'private', it must be one that the unenlightened are not aware of. I can't imagine what it would be, but please, tell us, because I've never heard of this third definition of 'private company'.

585 RogueOne  Fri, May 28, 2010 2:51:44am

re: #582 Gus 802

No hard feelings on my part. I didn't think your asking if I was a "paulian" was out of line. Given the topic and my position it was a legit question. Good luck with whatever it is that's keeping you up at nights.


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