Manhattan Community Board Endorses Mosque Near Ground Zero

Yesterday a community board in Manhattan voted to approve a proposal to build a mosque two blocks from where the World Trade Center once stood: Local Board Endorses Muslim Center Near Ground Zero.

The anti-Muslim bigots of the so-called “anti-jihad” blogosphere are freaking out, of course.

Pamela “Shrieking Harpy” Geller is spewing insults like a malevolent street corner lunatic: The Fix Was In: 911 Mega Mosque Community Board Farce, Board Votes Yes for Mega Mosque.

And Robert Spencer is fawning over Geller, doing his patented “I’m not a bigot, I’m just asking questions” routine. These kinds of questions:

There was a great deal of catcalling and booing of the multiculturalist platitudes and self-righteous moralizing, and the schoolmarmish chairperson of the Community Board repeatedly warned catcallers in the crowd that they would be held “out of order” — but their threats were as toothless and empty as their moralizing, and the indignation of the crowd would break out repeatedly throughout the evening whenever another bemused liberal or smooth-talking Muslim would excoriate “hatred” and “bigotry” and extol “tolerance.” Daisy Khan showed a brief Power Point presentation that said, among other things, that the Islamic Center would help non-Muslims to integrate.

Interesting word choice. Not help Muslims to integrate into the American secular fabric, but to help non-Muslims to integrate. Into…a Sharia state? Is that the goal?

Right, that must be it. Because in Spencer’s twisted world, all Muslims are “smooth-talking” mindless religious robots, advancing sharia law with every waking moment.

It’s wonderful that Spencer and Geller are bringing their dog and pony show out into the open more frequently. Every time they show up in public ranting like tinpot Crusaders, more people see their irrational hatred for what it is.

UPDATE at 5/26/10 11:20:13 am:

The bigotbloggers are describing this project as a super-scary “MEGA MOSQUE!” But here’s a little bit of reality; it’s actually a remodel of an existing building, and a more accurate description would be “community center:” Cordoba House - New York City.

Cordoba House is a Muslim-led project which will build a world-class facility that promotes tolerance, reflecting the rich diversity of New York City. The center will be community-driven, serving as a platform for inter-community gatherings and cooperation at all levels, providing a space for all New Yorkers to enjoy.

This proposed project is about promoting integration, tolerance of difference and community cohesion through arts and culture. Cordoba House will provide a place where individuals, regardless of their backgrounds, will find a center of learning, art and culture; and most importantly, a center guided by Islamic values in their truest form - compassion, generosity, and respect for all.

The site will contain tremendous amounts of resources that otherwise would not exist in Lower Manhattan; a 500-seat auditorium, swimming pool, art exhibition spaces, bookstores, restaurants - all these services would form a cultural nexus for a region of New York City that, as it continues to grow, requires the sort of hub that Cordoba House will provide.

Jump to bottom

324 comments

1 Reginald Perrin  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:29:32am

The totalitarian transnational progress movement is to blame.
They view Islam as a 3rd World Liberation Movement

/snark:off

2 _RememberTonyC  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:30:07am

the locals in New York have spoken, good for them.

do the locals in other places deserve the same consideration?

3 lawhawk  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:32:42am

Noted this in the overnight dead thread and here, and seeing how I work a block from Ground Zero and know the area quite well, the CB appears to have made the right decision. This isn't at Ground Zero - it's a couple of blocks away. The proposed community center is along the lines of the 92nd Street Y or JCC, and that's sorely lacking in Lower Manhattan.

Financing is still a major hurdle for the group, and if there's something objectionable there, I haven't seen it yet. If they get foreign financing, it might deserve stricter scrutiny, but those named as among financers aren't raising red flags.

It still needs LPC and NYC City Council approval, and both are likely. In fact, the LPC may oppose the planned exterior, but that wouldn't necessarily end the proposal - it would simply require adjusting the exterior facade and other changes to fulfill the LPC requirements. The LPC has approved major exterior renovations and has rejected some - so it depends on the situation.

4 Gus  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:33:05am

It's good to see that the Manhattan Community Board came down on the side of the US Constitution and religious freedom and liberty.

5 albusteve  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:33:37am

is it going to howl out at prayer time every day?...

6 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:34:03am

Let this be a chance for Islam in America to show that it can be compatible with the Constitution and the law of the land. If they fail, they will fail big time and in everybody's eyes.

7 albusteve  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:34:12am

re: #2 _RememberTonyC

the locals in New York have spoken, good for them.

do the locals in other places deserve the same consideration?

not Switzerland

8 lawhawk  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:34:34am

re: #2 _RememberTonyC

The locals at CB 1's hearing weighed in for four hours. There were some relatives of victims of 9/11 who opposed, and some in the community supported it. In the end, the CB approved it 29-1, with 10 abstentions.

Now, it heads to NYC City Planning and then to the City Council.

9 Kragar  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:35:51am

Personally, I don't like the idea, but I'm not gonna be screaming for blood about it.

10 Bagua  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:36:28am

It's just an outrage that they are allowing Muslims to pray! This could be a stepping stone to worse behaviour, such and eating and playing music.

11 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:37:58am

Outrage! Why, this is like having a Confederate memorial at Arlington National Cemetery!

Oh, wait.

12 Reginald Perrin  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:38:10am

re: #10 Bagua

It's just an outrage that they are allowing Muslims to pray! This could be a stepping stone to worse behaviour, such and eating and playing music.

Or even worse, it could lead to dancing.

13 albusteve  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:38:41am

re: #10 Bagua

It's just an outrage that they are allowing Muslims to pray! This could be a stepping stone to worse behaviour, such and eating and playing music.

or turning the joint into an arms depot

14 Cato the Elder  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:39:15am

I'd still like to know who's financing this thing.

Saudi money?

15 Bagua  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:39:32am

re: #13 albusteve

or turning the joint into an arms depot

Now when did they ever do such a thing? Oh wait...

16 lawhawk  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:40:59am

re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm ambivalent about the proposal. I want to see who's involved in the financing, and whether they actually do carry out their mission along the lines of the 92nd St. Y or go another route. The location doesn't bother me so much because the group operates a mosque about a mile away, and owns the building in question.

If opponents are so opposed to this, they could put the money together to buy the building from the mosque that owns the site.

17 Cato the Elder  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:41:24am

Anyway, let it be built. With surveillance equipment in every room.

18 _RememberTonyC  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:42:22am

re: #8 lawhawk

The locals at CB 1's hearing weighed in for four hours. There were some relatives of victims of 9/11 who opposed, and some in the community supported it. In the end, the CB approved it 29-1, with 10 abstentions.

Now, it heads to NYC City Planning and then to the City Council.

I have no problem with the locals approving the center, although I really did think the column with the opinion of the Muslim American from yesterday's NY Post demonstrated sobriety and sensitivity. So while we celebrate a local decision made by informed locals in New York City, we should remember that concerned locals in other states with different opinions on other issues also deserve the same consideration that we gave the New Yorkers.

19 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:42:36am

re: #1 Reginald Perrin

The totalitarian transnational progress movement is to blame.
They view Islam as a 3rd World Liberation Movement

/snark:off Rodan

fixed.

20 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:43:15am
whenever another bemused liberal or smooth-talking Muslim would excoriate “hatred” and “bigotry” and extol “tolerance.”

"The Tolerence, it burns us!"

21 gatoratlaw  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:43:33am

The most depressing thing about all this nonsense, for me at least, is that these people display such a galling lack of faith in our country's institutions. They really think that, ignoring all political realities, Sharia is even constitutionally possible. It doesn't end there. See also federal trials of terrorists (the feds have a perfect record), Miranda warnings for accused terrorists, separation of powers, a limited executive, etc. They're just like the big government liberals they despise, except they don't want a welfare state. They want an all-powerful king.

22 Gus  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:44:12am

Oh brother.

23 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:44:29am

re: #21 gatoratlaw

The most depressing thing about all this nonsense, for me at least, is that these people display such a galling lack of faith in our country's institutions. They really think that, ignoring all political realities, Sharia is even constitutionally possible. It doesn't end there. See also federal trials of terrorists (the feds have a perfect record), Miranda warnings for accused terrorists, separation of powers, a limited executive, etc. They're just like the big government liberals they despise, except they don't want a welfare state. They want an all-powerful king.


Military spending does not count as "big government".

24 Cato the Elder  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:44:30am

re: #18 _RememberTonyC

I have no problem with the locals approving the center, although I really did think the column with the opinion of the Muslim American from yesterday's NY Post demonstrated sobriety and sensitivity. So while we celebrate a local decision made by informed locals in New York City, we should remember that concerned locals in other states with different opinions on other issues also deserve the same consideration that we gave the New Yorkers.

Meaning, I suppose, that states and counties and municipalities get to discriminate against anyone they want to.

25 albusteve  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:45:26am

re: #18 _RememberTonyC

I have no problem with the locals approving the center, although I really did think the column with the opinion of the Muslim American from yesterday's NY Post demonstrated sobriety and sensitivity. So while we celebrate a local decision made by informed locals in New York City, we should remember that concerned locals in other states with different opinions on other issues also deserve the same consideration that we gave the New Yorkers.

I'm not reading that rag!

26 Reginald Perrin  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:46:12am

re: #19 Dark_Falcon

/snark:off Rodan

fixed.

Damn, was it that obvious?

27 Gus  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:46:28am

re: #22 Gus 802

Oh brother.

Nevermind. Woke up with a stiff neck again and I read something wrong.

28 albusteve  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:47:13am

re: #24 Cato the Elder

Meaning, I suppose, that states and counties and municipalities get to discriminate against anyone they want to.

that's reserved for individuals, like me and you...

29 Unsympathetic  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:47:18am

I love stories like this. Racism and intolerance are OK.. as long as you're middle-aged and white! Thanks for making yourselves irrelevant, GOP!

30 wrenchwench  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:49:31am

re: #11 Shiplord Kirel

Outrage! Why, this is like having a Confederate memorial at Arlington National Cemetery!

Oh, wait.

Why, it's like naming a state park after a terrorist who killed American civilians!

Oh, wait.

31 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:49:38am

re: #27 Gus 802

Nevermind. Woke up with a stiff neck again and I read something wrong.


A pre-viagra joke:

An old gentleman shows up at a recpetion with his fly open. Another attendee points it out to him, to which he reples "It's an experiment!"

"What sort of an experiment?"

"Last night I slept with the window open and woke up with a stiff neck!"

32 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:50:04am

re: #29 Unsympathetic

I love stories like this. Racism and intolerance are OK.. as long as you're middle-aged and white! Thanks for making yourselves irrelevant, GOP!

The GOP leadership has spoken out against the permit?

33 cliffster  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:50:38am

re: #27 Gus 802

Nevermind. Woke up with a stiff neck again and I read something wrong.

I took a viagra last night and it got stuck in my throat. Woke up this morning with an awful stiff neck

34 Varek Raith  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:51:07am

re: #33 cliffster

I took a viagra last night and it got stuck in my throat. Woke up this morning with an awful stiff neck

re: #22 Gus 802

Oh brother.

;)

35 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:51:22am

re: #31 ralphieboy

A pre-viagra joke:
There was a life pre-Viagra??

//

36 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:51:47am

re: #35 sattv4u2

A pre-viagra joke:
There was a life pre-Viagra??

//


Not for men over 50, no.

37 recusancy  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:51:56am

re: #18 _RememberTonyC

I have no problem with the locals approving the center, although I really did think the column with the opinion of the Muslim American from yesterday's NY Post demonstrated sobriety and sensitivity. So while we celebrate a local decision made by informed locals in New York City, we should remember that concerned locals in other states with different opinions on other issues also deserve the same consideration that we gave the New Yorkers.

New Yorkers came down on the side of tolerance and minority rights. Arizonans, not so much.

38 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:52:19am

re: #36 ralphieboy

Not for men over 50, no.

HEY ,, I resemble that remark!!!

39 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:52:35am

re: #33 cliffster

I took a viagra last night and it got stuck in my throat. Woke up this morning with an awful stiff neck

A Semi load of viagra was hijacked from a local truck stop here..
Police are looking for a group of hardened Criminals

40 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:53:27am

re: #37 recusancy

New Yorkers came down on the side of tolerance and minority rights. Arizonans, not so much.

I wonder if the vote in NYC would have been the same if the Mosque were to be built by/ for ILLEGAL Muslims


Apples/ Oranges

41 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:54:16am

re: #40 sattv4u2

I wonder if the vote in NYC would have been the same if the Mosque were to be built by/ for ILLEGAL Muslims


Apples/ Oranges


How many homes and buildings in AZ were built by illegal Mexicans?

42 cliffster  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:54:17am

re: #37 recusancy

New Yorkers came down on the side of tolerance and minority rights. Arizonans, not so much.

I didn't realize that the mosque was being built to house Muslims here illegally.

43 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:54:20am

re: #40 sattv4u2

I wonder if the vote in NYC would have been the same if the Mosque were to be built by/ for ILLEGAL Muslims Muslims in the country illegally

pimf


Apples/ Oranges

44 Varek Raith  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:54:59am

re: #41 ralphieboy

How many homes and buildings in AZ were built by illegal Mexicans?

Heh.

45 recusancy  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:55:00am

re: #42 cliffster

I didn't realize that the mosque was being built to house Muslims here illegally.

Better start racial profiling and asking for papers at the entrance or we'll never know right?

46 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:55:12am

re: #41 ralphieboy

How many homes and buildings in AZ were built by illegal Mexicans?

Lots, probably.

And I condemn the builders IF they are aware that they gave hired illegals

47 webevintage  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:55:14am

re: #29 Unsympathetic

I love stories like this. Racism and intolerance are OK.. as long as you're middle-aged and white! Thanks for making yourselves irrelevant, GOP!

whaaaaaa I'm white and middle aged...whaaaaa it is all the fault of everyone else that my life sucks....whaaaaaa......

48 albusteve  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:55:40am

re: #30 wrenchwench

Why, it's like naming a state park after a terrorist who killed American civilians!

Oh, wait.

ha!...good snag

49 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:55:59am

re: #45 recusancy

Better start racial profiling and asking for papers at the entrance or we'll never know right?

YEAH ,,,, ummm,, except that the Arizona law strictly PROHIBITS that

50 lawhawk  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:56:19am

re: #29 Unsympathetic

I don't know the political makeup of those who spoke at the hearing last night in opposition, but some of those who did lost loved ones in the attacks - worked for the NYPD, FDNY, and/or live in and around Ground Zero within the Board's geographical boundaries - and the area is heavily Democratic as its representatives include NYS Assembly Speaker Shelly Silver and Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D) among others.

51 cliffster  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:56:33am

re: #45 recusancy

Better start racial profiling and asking for papers at the entrance or we'll never know right?

No, that would be bad. Which is why they aren't going to be doing that in Arizona.

52 Stanghazi  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:56:42am

Takes me to that confusing place where people fight for years (and win) to leave their huge crosses up on state or federal lands.

53 garhighway  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:57:05am

re: #17 Cato the Elder

Anyway, let it be built. With surveillance equipment in every room.

Like we do with every other church.

/

54 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:57:09am

re: #51 cliffster

No, that would be bad. Which is why they aren't going to be doing that in Arizona.

details details

The rant sounds so much better when you can invent things

55 albusteve  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:57:27am

re: #45 recusancy

Better start racial profiling and asking for papers at the entrance or we'll never know right?

have you read the AZ law yet?

56 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:57:32am

re: #46 sattv4u2

Lots, probably.

And I condemn the builders IF they are aware that they gave hired illegals


"Don't ask, don't tell" is standard operating procedure.

57 recusancy  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:58:30am

re: #49 sattv4u2

YEAH ,,, ummm,, except that the Arizona law strictly PROHIBITS that

Let me know when they start asking for papers from people who aren't brown.

58 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 10:59:48am

re: #56 ralphieboy

"Don't ask, don't tell" is standard operating procedure.

As stated yesterday, I have seen a forged Georgia Drivers license. Looking at it side by side to mine I cannot distinguish between the two. I've been told by police that other forged papers are of similar quality.

LOTS of employers do turn their heads.
LOTS, however are duped by great forgeries

59 albusteve  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:00:02am

re: #57 recusancy

Let me know when they start asking for papers from people who aren't brown.

get stopped for a traffic ticket....happens all the time

60 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:00:06am

re: #5 albusteve

is it going to howl out at prayer time every day?...

Do New York's sound ordinances permit the adhan to be broadcast?

61 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:00:09am

re: #30 wrenchwench

Why, it's like naming a state park after a terrorist who killed American civilians!

Oh, wait.

Well, Villa had a good run. Interesting his biggest defeats at the two battles of Celaya were due to his sending his Division del Norte against entrenched Federales. He did not appreciate the power of steady foot soldiers in good positions. In that, he made the same mistake as many other generals in that year of 1915.

62 Locker  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:00:45am

re: #57 recusancy

Let me know when they start asking for papers from people who aren't brown.

Yea it's the meme. The law PROHIBITS that.. which we all know that it doesn't or there wouldn't be all this drama. The head in the sand defense is fairly common from certain members of the commenting public.

63 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:01:25am

re: #57 recusancy

Let me know when they start asking for papers from people who aren't brown.


That whole discussion would be a moot point if they had a system of registered residency for all citizens, as they have in Germany.

To get a job here (or to sign a lease or register a car, etc.) you have to show a copy of your registration, which you can only obtain if you can show proof of legal residency.

I cannot imagine the USA institutiong such a system. Until then, we will have illegals working or we will have profiling. Or a mixture of both as we have now.

64 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:02:03am

re: #21 gatoratlaw

The most depressing thing about all this nonsense, for me at least, is that these people display such a galling lack of faith in our country's institutions. They really think that, ignoring all political realities, Sharia is even constitutionally possible. It doesn't end there. See also federal trials of terrorists (the feds have a perfect record), Miranda warnings for accused terrorists, separation of powers, a limited executive, etc. They're just like the big government liberals they despise, except they don't want a welfare state. They want an all-powerful king.

Stalin, but with drive-through and Starbucks.

65 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:02:31am

re: #57 recusancy

Let me know when they start asking for papers from people who aren't brown.

Like three weeks ago, when I was pulled over in a sobriety road check?
Cops had about 6 cruisers at the entrance to a major roadway. They were pulling everyone over to spot check.
LICENSE, REGISTRATION AND INSURANCE CARD were all asked for and produced

66 albusteve  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:02:39am

re: #62 Locker

Yea it's the meme. The law PROHIBITS that.. which we all know that it doesn't or there wouldn't be all this drama. The head in the sand defense is fairly common from certain members of the commenting public.

knee jerk....watch your chin!

67 Cato the Elder  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:03:10am

Well, the ground where this mosque is being built is "hallowed" how, exactly, Pamz? It's not and never was part of the World Trade Center. It's an old building that just happens to be in the neighborhood.

I want Muslims to congregate where we can keep an eye on them. Hopefully the FBI already has a few insiders reporting on the activities of the people behind this.

68 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:03:26am

re: #62 Locker

Yea it's the meme. The law PROHIBITS that.. which we all know that it doesn't or there wouldn't be all this drama. The head in the sand defense is fairly common from certain members of the commenting public.

Have you read the law, or have you taken the Janet Napolitano/ Eric Holder approach to jurisprudence?

69 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:03:49am

re: #66 albusteve

knee jerk...watch your chin!

ftfy

(sorry mm that was a softball!)

70 albusteve  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:03:55am

re: #60 SanFranciscoZionist

Do New York's sound ordinances permit the adhan to be broadcast?

sees like a legit question

71 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:05:14am

OT (but since we've already veered into Arizona...)

A poem by YouTuber Nessrriinn.

Sharia Law

*Graphic Content*

72 albusteve  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:05:19am

re: #65 sattv4u2

Like three weeks ago, when I was pulled over in a sobriety road check?
Cops had about 6 cruisers at the entrance to a major roadway. They were pulling everyone over to spot check.
LICENSE, REGISTRATION AND INSURANCE CARD were all asked for and produced

DUI road blocks are common in ABQ....the cops even broadcast the locations and the drunks still drive right up and get busted....talk about total discrimination

73 Gus  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:06:30am

It's actually not going to be a Mosque anyway. It's going to be more of a Muslim community center. This is a description from Cordoba House - New York City %P% Cordoba:

Why the Cordoba House?

Cordoba House is a Muslim-led project which will build a world-class facility that promotes tolerance, reflecting the rich diversity of New York City. The center will be community-driven, serving as a platform for inter-community gatherings and cooperation at all levels, providing a space for all New Yorkers to enjoy.

This proposed project is about promoting integration, tolerance of difference and community cohesion through arts and culture. Cordoba House will provide a place where individuals, regardless of their backgrounds, will find a center of learning, art and culture; and most importantly, a center guided by Islamic values in their truest form - compassion, generosity, and respect for all.

The site will contain tremendous amounts of resources that otherwise would not exist in Lower Manhattan; a 500-seat auditorium, swimming pool, art exhibition spaces, bookstores, restaurants - all these services would form a cultural nexus for a region of New York City that, as it continues to grow, requires the sort of hub that Cordoba House will provide.

I'm seeking architectural information but can't locate it yet. If this is to open next year and is going in front of a landmark commission it doesn't sound like a new structure. It will be a remodel to an existing 13 story building. Since it is going in front of landmark that typically means they won't be able to do many modification to the building facade.

74 recusancy  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:06:31am

re: #60 SanFranciscoZionist

Do New York's sound ordinances permit the adhan to be broadcast?

Probably quietly within the mosque grounds but not booming throughout the neighborhood. [Link: blogs.villagevoice.com...]

75 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:06:45am

re: #60 SanFranciscoZionist

Do New York's sound ordinances permit the adhan to be broadcast?

Theres a huge Mosque in the next town over from me. They were NOT allowed too

76 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:07:23am

re: #59 albusteve

get stopped for a traffic ticket...happens all the time

Whereupon, the AZ police, with their great new powers, will be able to arrest drug lords and...deport them for driving without a license.

Wahoo. It might take them twenty-four hours to get back to work.

OK, I get it. Folks want to be pissy about New York, because other folks failed to buy into the narrative of Bloody Arizona. Can we talk about New York, PLEASE?

77 tradewind  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:07:42am

You don't have to be a Spencer-Geller freak to know that this is an abomination.
It's a burial ground, for pete's sake. There are body parts scattered for blocks that are part of the earth there now. Would the Japanese be allowed to place a shrine to Hirohito on the grounds of the USS Arizona memorial? Then again, they wouldn't be that insensitive.
This board does not have approval authority, and let's hope that their vote means zero.

78 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:08:36am

re: #73 Gus 802

iirc,, LAWHAWK had something about that weeks ago

79 Varek Raith  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:08:59am

re: #77 tradewind

Nice broad brush.
I got one too.
No Churches near elementary schools.

80 Gus  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:09:00am

re: #77 tradewind

You don't have to be a Spencer-Geller freak to know that this is an abomination.
It's a burial ground, for pete's sake. There are body parts scattered for blocks that are part of the earth there now. Would the Japanese be allowed to place a shrine to Hirohito on the grounds of the USS Arizona memorial? Then again, they wouldn't be that insensitive.
This board does not have approval authority, and let's hope that their vote means zero.

Hirohito? Uh, this is bullshit. This is a Muslim community center. It's not a shrine to Osama Bin Laden.

81 Cato the Elder  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:09:03am

re: #77 tradewind

You don't have to be a Spencer-Geller freak to know that this is an abomination.
It's a burial ground, for pete's sake. There are body parts scattered for blocks that are part of the earth there now. Would the Japanese be allowed to place a shrine to Hirohito on the grounds of the USS Arizona memorial? Then again, they wouldn't be that insensitive.
This board does not have approval authority, and let's hope that their vote means zero.

How many blocks away would be sufficient distance for you?

82 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:09:16am

re: #73 Gus 802

I'm seeking architectural information but can't locate it yet

iirc,, LAWHAWK had something about that weeks ago

(pimf ,, pimf ,, pimf)

83 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:09:27am

re: #70 albusteve

sees like a legit question

Sure, but I don't know.

84 wrenchwench  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:09:56am

re: #77 tradewind

You don't have to be a Spencer-Geller freak to know that this is an abomination

True, you can be like them without liking them.

85 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:10:23am

re: #79 Varek Raith

And no elementary schools/churches near adult book stores!
/

86 cliffster  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:10:45am

Ben Nelson and James Carville are pissed at WH for not doing something about the oil spill. Says he should be, you know, sending people down there and getting stuff fixed up. C'mon, Barack, get a scuba suit on... go down there and plug that shit up.

87 albusteve  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:11:14am

re: #76 SanFranciscoZionist

Whereupon, the AZ police, with their great new powers, will be able to arrest drug lords and...deport them for driving without a license.

Wahoo. It might take them twenty-four hours to get back to work.

OK, I get it. Folks want to be pissy about New York, because other folks failed to buy into the narrative of Bloody Arizona. Can we talk about New York, PLEASE?

sure...

88 tradewind  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:11:23am

re: #81 Cato the Elder
My opinion should have nothing to do with it. They should ask those who lost loved ones on September 11, 2001. I'm sure they have plenty of ideas.

89 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:11:35am

re: #77 tradewind

You don't have to be a Spencer-Geller freak to know that this is an abomination.
It's a burial ground, for pete's sake. There are body parts scattered for blocks that are part of the earth there now. Would the Japanese be allowed to place a shrine to Hirohito on the grounds of the USS Arizona memorial? Then again, they wouldn't be that insensitive.
This board does not have approval authority, and let's hope that their vote means zero.


Truly lame analogy. Islam is not a nation, it is a religion. Pearl Harbor was a military target, The WTC was not. You also seem to assume that every Muslim in the world supported the attack, which is also not the case.


The name of center should not be lost on us either, Cordoba was a city under the Moors that was very advanced for its age in its tolerance of various cultures and religions.

90 Gus  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:11:46am

re: #82 sattv4u2

I'm seeking architectural information but can't locate it yet

iirc,, LAWHAWK had something about that weeks ago

(pimf ,, pimf ,, pimf)

Found something.

Looks OK to me. Seems like it could be any other form of modern architecture.

91 albusteve  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:11:53am

re: #81 Cato the Elder

How many blocks away would be sufficient distance for you?

73,926....

kidding

92 Varek Raith  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:11:56am

re: #86 cliffster

Ben Nelson and James Carville are pissed at WH for not doing something about the oil spill. Says he should be, you know, sending people down there and getting stuff fixed up. C'mon, Barack, get a scuba suit on... go down there and plug that shit up.

Heh, Obama should get on the deck of a ship, reveal the "S" logo underneath his suit, and punch the damn ground to stop the leak.

93 Stanghazi  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:13:08am

Just got a breaking news tweet - BP has started the top kill procedure.

Got to find the vid.

94 Cato the Elder  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:13:26am

re: #88 tradewind

My opinion should have nothing to do with it. They should ask those who lost loved ones on September 11, 2001. I'm sure they have plenty of ideas.

I don't see what 9/11 families should have to say about a building that is two blocks away from the "sacred" ground and never had anything at all with the World Trade Center complex.

Can you explain to me how that works?

95 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:13:38am

Kill, baby, kill!

96 ShaunP  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:13:41am

re: #88 tradewind

My opinion should have nothing to do with it. They should ask those who lost loved ones on September 11, 2001. I'm sure they have plenty of ideas.

As someone that lost friends in the WTC, I don't have a problem with it...

97 tradewind  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:14:07am

re: #86 cliffster
POTUS never bothered to drop by Nashville. If it took Serpenthead unloading on him to get him to the Gulf for more than a perfunctory stop, good for Carville.

98 cliffster  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:14:13am

re: #93 Stanley Sea

Just got a breaking news tweet - BP has started the top kill procedure.

Got to find the vid.

If you find something that's chronicling it well, post it here lickety split

99 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:14:17am

re: #88 tradewind

My opinion should have nothing to do with it. They should ask those who lost loved ones on September 11, 2001. I'm sure they have plenty of ideas.

Do you imagine they will all have the same ideas?

100 Mark Pennington  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:14:30am

Fox has been playing up this outrageous outrage all morning.

101 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:14:45am

re: #92 Varek Raith

Heh, Obama should get on the deck of a ship, reveal the "S" logo underneath his suit, and punch the damn ground to stop the leak.

Better yet, fly around the Earth really fast in the direction that will cause it to start rotating the other way, which *reverses* time!

Then he winds things back to before the explosion takes place, flies down to the platform and prevents the accident from happening in the first place.

Now those would be the actions of a President I would be willing to stand behind... *

///

* - since if you're behind him the bullets hit him and bounce off.

102 Bagua  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:14:50am

Gulf Oil Spill Update:

The current leak is estimated at 5,000 barrels a day, which is 150 gallons per minute.

The Mud will be initially injected at 50 barrels per minute from the HOS Centerline, which is 2,000 gallons per minute. There is a second mud tanker, the M/V Blue Dolphin which can deliver mud at 80 bpm, so there is plenty of flow and pressure capacity available for the task at hand.

It will, of course, partially come squirting out the top of the riser with the oil/gas mixture. However, as the BOP appears to be throttling down the leak to the present 5,000 b/pd, the mud will also be throttled, thus, the only other route is down the hole, as intended. Short of a rupture that is.

They will most likely start with 16.4 lb/gal mud, about twice the weight of the sea-water which is about 8.7 lb/gal at that salinity. Once the column of mud in the well is deep enough, the hydrostatic pressure will be enough to hold down the oil/gas.

But keep in mind, mud at this pressure can erode metal, this could open the hole in the BOP wider allowing more gas, oil and mud out the top. Worse, it could destroy the choke and kill lines, or other bits internally. Or it could over-pressurize the BOP, Wellhead, and the bits bellow the surface leading to an worse problem. We don't know how much they have already been damaged by all the sand blasting through and the blow-out itself.

I'm still 50/50 on this working. But I note our Austin_Blue gives it no chance of success, and he has direct field experience as a well-head engineer.

103 Reginald Perrin  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:15:09am

re: #92 Varek Raith

Heh, Obama should get on the deck of a ship, reveal the "S" logo underneath his suit, and punch the damn ground to stop the leak.

Why hasn't he sent the Mole People to burrow the relief shaft instead of allowing BP to take months to drill it.

104 Gus  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:15:31am

re: #93 Stanley Sea

Just got a breaking news tweet - BP has started the top kill procedure.

Got to find the vid.

[Link: globalwarming.house.gov...]

[Link: www.bp.com...]

105 tradewind  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:15:37am

re: #89 ralphieboy
No, I don't assume that. And there were Muslims lost in the attack. It's just totally insensitive, and it's not my opinion alone... the relatives and survivors are not happy.
I can't see this ending well if they try to push ahead with the same location.

106 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:15:46am

I'm going to see my doctor. Hopefully, I can get this cough taken care of.

107 tradewind  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:16:04am

re: #99 SanFranciscoZionist
Probably not, but I would imagine there is a predominate view.

108 Stanghazi  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:16:10am

[Link: www.bp.com...]

109 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:16:17am

re: #89 ralphieboy


The name of center should not be lost on us either, Cordoba was a city under the Moors that was very advanced for its age in its tolerance of various cultures and religions.

I believe that some folks are interpreting the name as a reference to Europe under Muslim rule, and objecting for that very reason. (I can hardly believe we're still fighting over Spain at this point, but there you go.)

110 cliffster  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:16:18am

re: #106 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to see my doctor. Hopefully, I can get this cough taken care of.

good luck buddy

111 ShaunP  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:16:46am

re: #106 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to see my doctor. Hopefully, I can get this cough taken care of.

Ask about allergies. I get an allergic cough every year around this time, with a little post nasal drip...

112 tradewind  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:16:48am

re: #106 Dark_Falcon
Grab some oil of oregano capsules on your way, DF.... they really do help with the respiratory stuff.
Feel better.

113 Cato the Elder  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:17:05am

And by the way, if Ground Zero is "hallowed", shouldn't we be building nothing at all there except maybe a park and a memorial, instead of giant commercial buildings that look like they'll never get built anyway?

114 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:17:06am

btw,, here's the one I was talking about in the town next to mine

Quite a striking building/ grouns, actually. The photos don't do justice to the actual size of it

Image: 05.hindu.span.jpg

Image: Swaminarayan2.jpg

115 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:17:20am

re: #100 beekiller

Fox has been playing up this outrageous outrage all morning.

I'm sure they're only upset because of the disrespect shown to the good people of Arizona.

116 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:17:51am

re: #105 tradewind

No, I don't assume that. And there were Muslims lost in the attack. It's just totally insensitive, and it's not my opinion alone... the relatives and survivors are not happy.
I can't see this ending well if they try to push ahead with the same location.


I am willing to offer Islam in America to show that it can be compatible with our Constitution and the laws of the land. I would like to see them try to embrace the sort of tolerance that made Córdoba one of the most advanced cities of its time.

And if they fail, they fail big, as the eyes of the nation will be on this project.

117 Stanghazi  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:17:53am

re: #108 Stanley Sea

[Link: www.bp.com...]

Please be aware, this is a live stream and may freeze or be unavailable from time to time.

Throughout the extended top kill procedure – which may take up to two days to complete - very significant changes in the appearance of the flows at the seabed may be expected. These will not provide a reliable indicator of the overall progress, or success or failure, of the top kill operation as a whole. BP will report on the progress of the operation as appropriate and on its outcome when complete.

118 Bagua  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:18:00am

re: #108 Stanley Sea

[Link: www.bp.com...]

That's the one monitoring the leaking riser, not the top kill.

119 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:18:01am

re: #105 tradewind

No, I don't assume that. And there were Muslims lost in the attack. It's just totally insensitive, and it's not my opinion alone... the relatives and survivors are not happy.
I can't see this ending well if they try to push ahead with the same location.

'Ending well' in what sense?

120 tradewind  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:18:23am

re: #104 Gus 802
Godspeed to them, and I hope it helps.

121 Bagua  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:18:52am

Here is a video of the robots preparing the BOP for the Top Kill, amazing stuff, this is a mile beneath the surface!

122 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:19:00am

re: #113 Cato the Elder

And by the way, if Ground Zero is "hallowed", shouldn't we be building nothing at all there except maybe a park and a memorial, instead of giant commercial buildings that look like they'll never get built anyway?

I would have preferred that. Make it an open park.

But it wasn't going to happen.

123 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:19:09am

re: #111 ShaunP

Ask about allergies. I get an allergic cough every year around this time, with a little post nasal drip...

one word

ZEGERID

124 lostlakehiker  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:19:20am

re: #21 gatoratlaw

The most depressing thing about all this nonsense, for me at least, is that these people display such a galling lack of faith in our country's institutions. They really think that, ignoring all political realities, Sharia is even constitutionally possible. It doesn't end there. See also federal trials of terrorists (the feds have a perfect record), Miranda warnings for accused terrorists, separation of powers, a limited executive, etc. They're just like the big government liberals they despise, except they don't want a welfare state. They want an all-powerful king.

Conservatives have seen promises gone back on before. Federal income tax will only touch the rich. Check. Civil rights laws will never set merit aside. Check. Social security will never be taxed. Check. Alternative minimum tax will only impact the rich. Check.

Sharia law will never be given a place in American law.

That hasn't even been promised.

125 Cato the Elder  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:19:32am

re: #105 tradewind

No, I don't assume that. And there were Muslims lost in the attack. It's just totally insensitive, and it's not my opinion alone... the relatives and survivors are not happy.
I can't see this ending well if they try to push ahead with the same location.

Once again, what the hell does this location actually have to do with Ground Zero, except for being a couple of blocks away?

Would it be OK to built a mini-mosque streets over? Ten?

If we want to honor the people who died there, maybe the best way to do it would be to go ahead and actually rebuild, instead of declaring the entire neighborhood to be "sacred".

126 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:19:47am

re: #114 sattv4u2

btw,, here's the one I was talking about in the town next to mine

Quite a striking building/ grouns, actually. The photos don't do justice to the actual size of it

Image: 05.hindu.span.jpg

Image: Swaminarayan2.jpg

That's very pretty. Looks Indian in style.

127 Fozzie Bear  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:20:01am

re: #46 sattv4u2

Lots, probably.

And I condemn the builders IF they are aware that they gave hired illegals

I highly doubt that they aren't aware their workers are illegal. Honestly. If you are hiring day laborers for cash, you know what you are doing. If you are hiring people who cannot complete W2 forms for lack of a SS#, you know what you are doing.

I am extremely skeptical of any claims of ignorance on this front, as I know how much paperwork is involved in hiring an employee legally, and unless the applicant has forged documents and has managed to "steal" an SS#, it just isn't going to slip past your notice unless you are trying not to notice.

Hiring cash under-the-table labor is illegal. Hiring undocumented labor to avoid payroll taxes is illegal. The employers of illegal immigrants are as large a part of the problem as the immigrants themselves, imo. They are manifestly worse, because they are exploiting those who have few options.

It's just wrong, and we should be vigorously investigating and shutting such businesses down.

128 recusancy  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:20:17am

re: #113 Cato the Elder

And by the way, if Ground Zero is "hallowed", shouldn't we be building nothing at all there except maybe a park and a memorial, instead of giant commercial buildings that look like they'll never get built anyway?

That's the real scandal.

129 Bagua  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:21:17am

Mud has been pumping for 20 minutes, but I can't find the video.

130 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:21:20am

re: #114 sattv4u2

btw,, here's the one I was talking about in the town next to mine

Quite a striking building/ grouns, actually. The photos don't do justice to the actual size of it

Image: 05.hindu.span.jpg

Image: Swaminarayan2.jpg

Very nice! I wonder how long before Al Gore buys it..

131 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:21:23am

re: #124 lostlakehiker

Conservatives have seen promises gone back on before. Federal income tax will only touch the rich. Check. Civil rights laws will never set merit aside. Check. Social security will never be taxed. Check. Alternative minimum tax will only impact the rich. Check.

Sharia law will never be given a place in American law.

That hasn't even been promised.

You have GOT to be kidding me.

132 Stanghazi  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:21:27am

re: #121 Bagua

Here is a video of the robots preparing the BOP for the Top Kill, amazing stuff, this is a mile beneath the surface!

Did I miss the link to the live feed of the top kill?

133 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:21:52am

re: #113 Cato the Elder

And by the way, if Ground Zero is "hallowed", shouldn't we be building nothing at all there except maybe a park and a memorial, instead of giant commercial buildings that look like they'll never get built anyway?

Those buildings might end up having Muslims in them, too. Probably better not to build there at all.

/dripping sarcasm

134 Varek Raith  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:22:11am

re: #124 lostlakehiker

Good grief.

135 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:22:21am

re: #130 HoosierHoops

Very nice! I wonder how long before Al Gore buys it..

Al Gore wants a mosque?

(I'm so confused...)

136 Bagua  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:22:36am

re: #132 Stanley Sea

Did I miss the link to the live feed of the top kill?

Yes, that is the leaking riser video.

137 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:22:47am

re: #127 Fozzie Bear

I highly doubt that they aren't aware their workers are illegal. Honestly. If you are hiring day laborers for cash, you know what you are doing. If you are hiring people who cannot complete W2 forms for lack of a SS#, you know what you are doing.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

You DO know that there are forged/ fake ID's (including SS cards and numbers) available, don't you??

138 lawhawk  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:22:54am

re: #73 Gus 802

The proposal includes a new glassed in facade. This is how the building currently looks. The taller of the two former Burlington coat factory storefronts is the one at issue (the one on the right).

re: #94 Cato the Elder
The building was hit by debris from the aircraft after they crashed into the towers. Part of the landing gear from one of the planes was found there.

139 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:23:12am

re: #135 SanFranciscoZionist

Al Gore wants a mosque?

(I'm so confused...)

LOL..He is looking for another huge vacation home..
/

140 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:23:35am

re: #114 sattv4u2

btw,, here's the one I was talking about in the town next to mine

Quite a striking building/ grouns, actually. The photos don't do justice to the actual size of it

Image: 05.hindu.span.jpg

Image: Swaminarayan2.jpg

That doesn't look like a mosque to me, but what do I know?

141 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:23:36am

re: #130 HoosierHoops

Very nice! I wonder how long before Al Gore buys it..

he ruled it out.
There's no landing strip on the grounds,

142 lawhawk  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:23:59am

re: #113 Cato the Elder

They're already rebuilding the towers, along with the memorial and museum space... and the transit hub and already rebuilt the subway line that runs through the site.

143 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:24:00am

re: #138 lawhawk

The proposal includes a new glassed in facade. This is how the building currently looks. The taller of the two former Burlington coat factory storefronts is the one at issue (the one on the right).

re: #94 Cato the Elder
The building was hit by debris from the aircraft after they crashed into the towers. Part of the landing gear from one of the planes was found there.

Which building - the coat factory or the one next to it?

144 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:24:04am

re: #137 sattv4u2


I highly doubt that they aren't aware their workers are illegal. Honestly. If you are hiring day laborers for cash, you know what you are doing. If you are hiring people who cannot complete W2 forms for lack of a SS#, you know what you are doing.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

You DO know that there are forged/ fake ID's (including SS cards and numbers) available, don't you??

There are also a lot of employers who know perfectly well what they are doing, and do it entirely deliberately. I'm sure some people are fooled by excellent forgeries and such, but I am not quite willing to believe they are the majority.

145 tradewind  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:24:20am

re: #119 SanFranciscoZionist
There could be a resentment that festers among the opponents that won't do much to help promote religious harmony. And as you know, there is still a segment of Islam that deifies the ' glorious 19' and they might see publicity potential in practically making a shrine out of the place.
I wonder why it must be that location... surely there is an alternate, less controversial site available.

146 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:24:26am

Oh, I get it. Perspective is weird when it first comes up.

147 Gus  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:24:34am

re: #138 lawhawk

The proposal includes a new glassed in facade. This is how the building currently looks. The taller of the two former Burlington coat factory storefronts is the one at issue (the one on the right).

re: #94 Cato the Elder
The building was hit by debris from the aircraft after they crashed into the towers. Part of the landing gear from one of the planes was found there.

Thanks. Found an image of the proposal earlier. That would have to be a retrofit.

148 Cato the Elder  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:24:40am

re: #138 lawhawk

re: #94 Cato the Elder
The building was hit by debris from the aircraft after they crashed into the towers. Part of the landing gear from one of the planes was found there.

Whoop-de-doo! Ash covered everything in lower Manhattan. Ash that contained incinerated people. Does that mean nothing Muslim can ever be built anywhere ash landed?

This is ridiculous.

149 lostlakehiker  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:24:54am

re: #127 Fozzie Bear

I highly doubt that they aren't aware their workers are illegal. Honestly. If you are hiring day laborers for cash, you know what you are doing. If you are hiring people who cannot complete W2 forms for lack of a SS#, you know what you are doing.

I am extremely skeptical of any claims of ignorance on this front, as I know how much paperwork is involved in hiring an employee legally, and unless the applicant has forged documents and has managed to "steal" an SS#, it just isn't going to slip past your notice unless you are trying not to notice.

Hiring cash under-the-table labor is illegal. Hiring undocumented labor to avoid payroll taxes is illegal. The employers of illegal immigrants are as large a part of the problem as the immigrants themselves, imo. They are manifestly worse, because they are exploiting those who have few options.

It's just wrong, and we should be vigorously investigating and shutting such businesses down.

Hiring illegal aliens does no harm to the illegal alien hired. If it did, he wouldn't take the job. The people most directly hurt are the ones who might have got the job but for the competition.

150 Bagua  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:25:14am

Note: Rear Admiral Landry approved the top kill attempt before they started.

151 Stanghazi  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:25:31am

re: #150 Bagua

Note: Rear Admiral Landry approved the top kill attempt before they started.

Find the video?

152 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:25:31am

re: #144 SanFranciscoZionist

There are also a lot of employers who know perfectly well what they are doing, and do it entirely deliberately. I'm sure some people are fooled by excellent forgeries and such, but I am not quite willing to believe they are the majority.

I clearly stated that in #58

153 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:26:16am

re: #145 tradewind

It is my understanding that they already own that property, so...

154 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:26:16am

re: #149 lostlakehiker

Hiring illegal aliens does no harm to the illegal alien hired. If it did, he wouldn't take the job. The people most directly hurt are the ones who might have got the job but for the competition.

And the businesses know that if other companies are hiring illegals and getting away with it, they are putting themselves at a disadvantage by obeying the law.

This is why we need a sound and comprehensive approach to immigration in this country, and not just a patchwork of local "we need to do something!" solutions.

155 Cato the Elder  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:26:24am

re: #148 Cato the Elder

For clarity, that first paragraph was supposed to be a blockquote from Lawhawk.

156 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:26:34am

re: #138 lawhawk

The proposal includes a new glassed in facade. This is how the building currently looks. The taller of the two former Burlington coat factory storefronts is the one at issue (the one on the right).

re: #94 Cato the Elder
The building was hit by debris from the aircraft after they crashed into the towers. Part of the landing gear from one of the planes was found there.

My Aunt Chaike's apartment was filled with ash from the WTC. Can I assume that Chaike's building is now holy ground, and can never be rented to people who might attend this mosque?

/Yes, I'm being tasteless, but given that we have made the decision to rebuild and continue to use the area for commerce, I really want to know where the line is being drawn.

157 cliffster  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:26:59am

I know some people from the NYC area. Can't do the new york accent in a blog post, but I think "why don't you go fuck yourself" is pretty much the sentiment to anyone saying anything about what they do around ground zero.

158 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:27:01am

re: #140 Slumbering Behemoth

That doesn't look like a mosque to me, but what do I know?

This is at one of it's entrances

Image: Masjid_2.jpg

159 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:27:48am

re: #145 tradewind

There could be a resentment that festers among the opponents that won't do much to help promote religious harmony. And as you know, there is still a segment of Islam that deifies the ' glorious 19' and they might see publicity potential in practically making a shrine out of the place.
I wonder why it must be that location... surely there is an alternate, less controversial site available.

Possibly, and like Cato, I do wonder whose money is going into this thing.

But that doesn't change what the law should be.

160 Bagua  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:28:10am

re: #151 Stanley Sea

Find the video?

Nope, nowhere, just the leaking riser. I'd thought they were going to live stream the robots view of the BOP, but monitoring the leak is the next best thing.

The colour of the stream is changing, much mud streaming through!

Riser leak cam

161 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:28:26am

re: #149 lostlakehiker

It is an exploitation of people in a bad spot.

162 wrenchwench  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:28:33am

re: #149 lostlakehiker

Hiring illegal aliens does no harm to the illegal alien hired. If it did, he wouldn't take the job. The people most directly hurt are the ones who might have got the job but for the competition.

Bullshit. Illegals are vulnerable to all kinds of abuse. Who are they going to report it to? Just because they take the job doesn't mean it's a great gig.

163 Fozzie Bear  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:28:51am

re: #149 lostlakehiker

Hiring illegal aliens does no harm to the illegal alien hired. If it did, he wouldn't take the job. The people most directly hurt are the ones who might have got the job but for the competition.

Are you joking? I can't tell.

164 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:29:00am

re: #149 lostlakehiker

Hiring illegal aliens does no harm to the illegal alien hired. If it did, he wouldn't take the job. The people most directly hurt are the ones who might have got the job but for the competition.

People who hire illegal immigrants hire them because they're cheap, disposable, and afraid of law enforcement.

165 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:29:37am

re: #158 sattv4u2

This is at one of it's entrances

Image: Masjid_2.jpg

Oh, thanks. Like I said "but what do I know"?

I've never seen a muslim mosque that looks quite like that.

166 recusancy  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:29:46am

re: #164 SanFranciscoZionist

People who hire illegal immigrants hire them because they're cheap, disposable, and afraid of law enforcement.

And often uneducated. So basically serfs.

167 Bagua  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:30:17am

Looks like about half mud, half oil/gas at this point. If the mud takes over I'm going to start a premature Snoopy Dance!

168 Varek Raith  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:30:47am

re: #167 Bagua

Looks like about half mud, half oil/gas at this point. If the mud takes over I'm going to start a premature Snoopy Dance!

Don't jinx it!

169 wrenchwench  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:30:54am

re: #164 SanFranciscoZionist

People who hire illegal immigrants hire them because they're cheap, disposable, and afraid of law enforcement.

OK, I'm redundant again, I can go get some work done.

170 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:31:22am

re: #166 recusancy

And often uneducated. So basically serfs.


And, sadly, still better off than they would be in their homeland.

171 Fozzie Bear  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:31:35am

I really want this top kill to work.

I'm also trying not to get my hopes up.

172 tradewind  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:32:22am

re: #159 SanFranciscoZionist
Well, if as was stated by someone else above, they own the property, I would say that it should be their decision to use it as they desire within the bounds of the law . I just think it is insensitive and unwise. They could sell it and probably buy more space for the same money in a different area.
Then again, I don't live there, and it's not my problem, so I'm not wasting any more time on it.

173 Bagua  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:32:40am

Bloody hell, the Leak Cam just went black. BP, what are you hiding?

174 Spare O'Lake  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:32:48am

re: #125 Cato the Elder

Location, location, location.

175 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:33:17am

re: #172 tradewind

Well, if as was stated by someone else above, they own the property, I would say that it should be their decision to use it as they desire within the bounds of the law . I just think it is insensitive and unwise. They could sell it and probably buy more space for the same money in a different area.
Then again, I don't live there, and it's not my problem, so I'm not wasting any more time on it.


Why would they want to sell it? Wwith the real estate market now they'd be taking a loss...

176 Varek Raith  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:33:24am

re: #173 Bagua

Bloody hell, the Leak Cam just went black. BP, what are you hiding?

Same here. Then my firewall went haywire.
A conspiracy is afoot!!!
/

177 Gus  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:33:25am

re: #173 Bagua

Bloody hell, the Leak Cam just went black. BP, what are you hiding?

Refresh that or try here...

[Link: globalwarming.house.gov...]

178 Stanghazi  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:33:47am

re: #173 Bagua

Bloody hell, the Leak Cam just went black. BP, what are you hiding?

restart it, I've got it.

179 Guanxi88  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:35:39am

re: #14 Cato the Elder

I'd still like to know who's financing this thing.

Saudi money?

Is there any other kind?

180 tradewind  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:36:02am

re: #164 SanFranciscoZionist
Never because of their superior work?
Because where I live, the most talented masons who do the best work are, unfortunately, illegals.
But they are in great demand not only because they work cheaply, because in this case, not so much. They're just the best at what they do.

181 cliffster  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:36:30am

re: #173 Bagua

Bloody hell, the Leak Cam just went black. BP, what are you hiding?

Mine too

182 Fozzie Bear  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:36:31am

Hiring illegals (knowingly) is morally bankrupt because:
- You are depressing wages in a given market.
- You are paying the workers less than the rate you would pay legal workers. (or else why would you do it)
- Your employees have no recourse to exploitation, no rights that can be enforced, no options. You can work them however hard you want under whatever conditions you want, because what are they going to do? Call the cops?
- You have an unfair competitive advantage against employers that don't break the law.
- You aren't paying payroll taxes, among other taxes, shifting more of the burden to the rest of the economy.
- You are an asshole who thinks it's ok to weaken the economy overall so long as your get your piece of pie.

Honestly, it astounds me that this isn't incredibly obvious to everyone.

183 Guanxi88  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:36:40am

re: #164 SanFranciscoZionist

re: #170 ralphieboy

Yep, the Land of the Free has its own class of helots. Very nice.

184 Varek Raith  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:37:16am

The live stream keeps going out on my end.

185 Bagua  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:38:00am

Leak Cam, about half mud and half oil/gas. Notice the heavier mud is exiting lower on the stack.re: #181 cliffster

Mine too

It keeps dropping out, probably more people watching this than the OJ car chase.

186 Guanxi88  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:38:03am

re: #180 tradewind

Never because of their superior work?
Because where I live, the most talented masons who do the best work are, unfortunately, illegals.
But they are in great demand not only because they work cheaply, because in this case, not so much. They're just the best at what they do.

I'll say this, as a Texan - the highly skilled tradesmen with so-so English skills who prefer cash payment and great discretion also tend to be highly skilled. And yeah, I've noticed it mostly with the masonry trades.

187 Stanghazi  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:38:29am

It's on CNN, they have the video

188 Bagua  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:39:19am

Ok, cam now looking at either the kill line or the choke line where the mud is being injected. No rupture/leak is a good thing.

189 Cato the Elder  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:39:38am

re: #182 Fozzie Bear

I think they have plenty of recourse to exploitation. Exploitation is what the get every day.

I assume you mean they have no legal recourse to fight exploitation.

190 tradewind  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:39:50am

re: #186 Guanxi88
It works the same way in TN. And a lot of the money evidently goes back home to Mexico, although a lot of people are trying hard to get their green cards, without much success.

191 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:39:59am

re: #188 Bagua

Ok, cam now looking at either the kill line or the choke line where the mud is being injected. No rupture/leak is a good thing.

Looks like something out of a Jules Verne movie!

192 Fozzie Bear  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:40:03am

I'm a little worried that the pressure increase won't just blow a hole elsewhere. Then again, I don't know a damn thing about this.

193 Gus  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:40:11am

re: #187 Stanley Sea

It's on CNN, they have the video

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

194 Fozzie Bear  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:40:26am

re: #189 Cato the Elder

I think they have plenty of recourse to exploitation. Exploitation is what the get every day.

I assume you mean they have no legal recourse to fight exploitation.

Haha, yes, you would be correct in so assuming.

195 Bagua  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:40:39am

re: #192 Fozzie Bear

I'm a little worried that the pressure increase won't just blow a hole elsewhere. Then again, I don't know a damn thing about this.

You are exactly right.

196 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:40:53am

re: #180 tradewind

Never because of their superior work?
Because where I live, the most talented masons who do the best work are, unfortunately, illegals.
But they are in great demand not only because they work cheaply, because in this case, not so much. They're just the best at what they do.

Sure, there are skilled laborers in the country illegally.

There are also a hell of a lot of farmworkers getting used to put cheap broccoli in the grocery stores.

197 cliffster  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:41:01am

re: #193 Gus 802

Gus can always find shit on the internet.

198 tradewind  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:41:25am

re: #185 Bagua
How is this supposed to work, like a giant dyke?
And speaking of, why wouldn't it be a good idea to have some people from the Netherlands over here helping with ideas re holding back the oil from the wetlands.....

199 Bagua  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:41:27am

re: #197 cliffster

Gus can always find shit on the internet.

He's like a hound dog.

200 Guanxi88  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:41:54am

re: #190 tradewind

It works the same way in TN. And a lot of the money evidently goes back home to Mexico, although a lot of people are trying hard to get their green cards, without much success.

It's revolting to me. These people are exploited:

1) by their homeland, which depends on their remittances and would just as soon not have to build or maintain a functional economy to keep them home;
2) by their employers here in the states;
3) by our political class, who view them as a pool of potential supporters, on the one hand, or as a bug-bear for spooking bubba, on the other.

And I'm sure there are others benefiting from this misery.

201 Gus  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:42:50am

re: #199 Bagua

He's like a hound dog.

:) Woof!

Hey, how long will this top kill procedure last? 2 hours?

202 Fozzie Bear  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:42:57am

re: #200 Guanxi88

This, this, a thousand times this.

These are people, not some kind of vague economic force to be used so we can have cheap veggies.

203 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:43:08am

re: #198 tradewind

How is this supposed to work, like a giant dyke?

MUST ,,, NOT ,, COMMENT !! //

204 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:43:15am

It's been suggested that a third or more of California's farmworkers are illegally in the country.

205 darthstar  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:44:14am

re: #188 Bagua

Ok, cam now looking at either the kill line or the choke line where the mud is being injected. No rupture/leak is a good thing.


I hope this works...

206 tradewind  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:44:40am

re: #203 sattv4u2
Hey... it's an upgrade since the last time I tried typing that one. Auto Stinky used to not even ' low it.
:)

207 Bagua  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:46:58am

Going upstairs to the Top Kill thread.

208 lawhawk  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:48:30am

re: #143 Charles

45 Park Place is the building in question, but it and the adjacent building were formerly owned by Burlington Coat Factory. This street view shows that the Burlington signage is present on both buildings.

209 sagehen  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:49:13am

re: #182 Fozzie Bear

Hiring illegals (knowingly) is morally bankrupt because:
- You are depressing wages in a given market.
- You are paying the workers less than the rate you would pay legal workers. (or else why would you do it)
- Your employees have no recourse to exploitation, no rights that can be enforced, no options. You can work them however hard you want under whatever conditions you want, because what are they going to do? Call the cops?
- You have an unfair competitive advantage against employers that don't break the law.
- You aren't paying payroll taxes, among other taxes, shifting more of the burden to the rest of the economy.
- You are an asshole who thinks it's ok to weaken the economy overall so long as your get your piece of pie.

Honestly, it astounds me that this isn't incredibly obvious to everyone.


I could say the same about people who outsource jobs to China and India, but nobody on the right seems to have a problem with that.

210 Guanxi88  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:50:02am

re: #209 sagehen

I could say the same about people who outsource jobs to China and India, but nobody on the right seems to have a problem with that.

Quite a few have some very real problems with that; sadly, however, their views are not widely held in leadership at present.

211 Fozzie Bear  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:50:21am

re: #209 sagehen

I could say the same about people who outsource jobs to China and India, but nobody on the right seems to have a problem with that.

It was inevitable once we started thinking of tariffs as always bad.

212 Guanxi88  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:51:27am

re: #211 Fozzie Bear

It was inevitable once we started thinking of tariffs as always bad.

Yep, the free-trade ideal out to raise global wages, which I suppose it does, albeit unreliably and not nearly fast enough. How the hell can you compete against people who earn a fraction of what you need to stay alive?

213 lawhawk  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:51:46am

re: #148 Cato the Elder

To me, Ground Zero was the 16 acres of the former WTC complex and the buildings that had to be demolished because of the damage to them (Fiterman Hall and former Deutsche Bank building). If we start counting the ash fall, it would extend to all of Lower Manhattan, parts of Brooklyn, and areas extending into NJ and Staten Island (depending on where the wind blew).

It's arbitrary - just as surely as how close is too close for the opponents of this proposal.

214 sattv4u2  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:53:16am

re: #210 Guanxi88

Quite a few have some very real problems with that; sadly, however, their views are not widely held in leadership at present.

Sorry, but I have a different view on that (outsourcing)

The job is not "yours". The job belongs to the employer. You may have a skill set at a mutually acceptable wage/ benefit packge that for the time being fills that postion, but at any time it's the employers discretion as to whether or not he needs that position filled and at that compensatory package

215 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:55:02am

re: #212 Guanxi88

Yep, the free-trade ideal out to raise global wages, which I suppose it does, albeit unreliably and not nearly fast enough. How the hell can you compete against people who earn a fraction of what you need to stay alive?

And not just wages: how can an industry compete against another whose environmental and safety standards cost only a fraction of what you have to pay?

216 Fozzie Bear  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:57:27am

re: #212 Guanxi88

Yep, the free-trade ideal out to raise global wages, which I suppose it does, albeit unreliably and not nearly fast enough. How the hell can you compete against people who earn a fraction of what you need to stay alive?

... and who work in places where labor and environmental protections are nonexistent.

Imo, a global "free market" only makes sense if the playing field is level. We need to level the playing field, via tariffs. I think it should be done on the corporate level rather than the national level, since it is conceivable that two factories in China, for example, could have vastly differing labor conditions.

Just off the top of my head, perhaps tariff companies that don't get some kind of certification, renewed yearly, that proves that they adhere to American labor laws and environmental regulations, as a minimum, regardless of location. Sounds complicated, but I think it could be done. (Violating those standards would result in a loss of certification, and imposition of tariffs.)

217 Guanxi88  Wed, May 26, 2010 11:59:41am

re: #214 sattv4u2

Sorry, but I have a different view on that (outsourcing)

The job is not "yours". The job belongs to the employer. You may have a skill set at a mutually acceptable wage/ benefit packge that for the time being fills that postion, but at any time it's the employers discretion as to whether or not he needs that position filled and at that compensatory package

Hey, I'm not saying there aren't problems with the idea, only that the alternative's kinda crappy, too. And of course the employer has final say-so on who does or does not fill a position. Again, the free movement of goods and such-like is desirable and inevitable, really, but the effects on domestic wages can be appalling. Simply put, efficiency dictates lower prices in all inputs, and that means shifting functions to cheaper providers wherever practical. The down-side, of course, is for the displaced domestic worker; one can only retool so many times, and, as we see now NO industry is immune to outsourcing. In time, management posts can and will be filled by folk with equal or even superior skills in the PRC or elsewhere, who'll be quite happy to do the work of their displaced American predecessors for far less pay.

My Chinese bosses predict America's economy will eventually devolve into a sort of real estate empire, with farmland, hotels, resorts and such as the primary industries, all owned or managed by foreigners, all staffed by immigrants. "America's gonna be a colony with a hundred masters," they say. It could happen.

218 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:02:30pm

re: #143 Charles

Which building - the coat factory or the one next to it?

Only the building to the Left is tall enough, they said it was going to be 13 stories right? I only count twleve stories even on the corner building and that is counting the tall ground floor level as two stories...

219 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:02:54pm

re: #216 Fozzie Bear

... and who work in places where labor and environmental protections are nonexistent.

Imo, a global "free market" only makes sense if the playing field is level. We need to level the playing field, via tariffs. I think it should be done on the corporate level rather than the national level, since it is conceivable that two factories in China, for example, could have vastly differing labor conditions.

Just off the top of my head, perhaps tariff companies that don't get some kind of certification, renewed yearly, that proves that they adhere to American labor laws and environmental regulations, as a minimum, regardless of location. Sounds complicated, but I think it could be done. (Violating those standards would result in a loss of certification, and imposition of tariffs.)

Exactly wht i advocate. Then companies could choose whether to up their standards or continue to pay tariffs.

If other countries want to compete on the matter of wges and benefits, then that is the "free market" in action. But we cannot allow them to compete on environmental and safety standares, that is punishing ourselves for having standards in the first place.

220 Spare O'Lake  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:04:41pm

re: #200 Guanxi88

It's revolting to me. These people are exploited:

1) by their homeland, which depends on their remittances and would just as soon not have to build or maintain a functional economy to keep them home;
2) by their employers here in the states;
3) by our political class, who view them as a pool of potential supporters, on the one hand, or as a bug-bear for spooking bubba, on the other.

And I'm sure there are others benefiting from this misery.

What you say is far from controversial but if one views the issue from the point of view of the illegals, one must concede that they are very happy to be here because they are infinitely better off in every important way in America than in their country of origin - otherwise they would surely go home. Therefore the deep concerns about their exploitation is largely ameliorated by their relative well-being, is it not?

221 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:04:55pm

re: #214 sattv4u2

Sorry, but I have a different view on that (outsourcing)

The job is not "yours". The job belongs to the employer. You may have a skill set at a mutually acceptable wage/ benefit packge that for the time being fills that postion, but at any time it's the employers discretion as to whether or not he needs that position filled and at that compensatory package

A person needs to eat. We can either have jobs in the country that will allow for that, or we can have a welfare state. There's really no third option.

222 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:08:08pm

re: #220 Spare O'Lake

What you say is far from controversial but if one views the issue from the point of view of the illegals, one must concede that they are very happy to be here because they are infinitely better off in every important way in America than in their country of origin - otherwise they would surely go home. Therefore the deep concerns about their exploitation is largely ameliorated by their relative well-being, is it not?

Sure. If a woman is willing to stay in the States to send money home so her kids don't starve, I suppose I should be OK with the idea that she's working sixteen-hour days in an unventilated sweatshop with locked doors and no fire alarms, afraid to report her boss's sexual harassment to the authorities, and being paid no overtime or minimum wage. After all, she wouldn't be better off in Mexico, would she?

SKIPPY.

223 Guanxi88  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:08:23pm

re: #220 Spare O'Lake

Hell yes, they're better off here. That the serf is pleased not to starve to death is hardly a consolation, and any comfort one derives from the thought is more or less shot to pieces by the negative effects of said person's presence here in the states.

224 lawhawk  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:10:06pm

re: #218 ausador

The proposal appears to include a renovation and exterior changes including an addition of floors. The LPC might decide to limit the height and/or exterior changes. That's the next major hurdle.

225 _RememberTonyC  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:13:26pm

re: #24 Cato the Elder

Meaning, I suppose, that states and counties and municipalities get to discriminate against anyone they want to.

nope

226 tradewind  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:15:25pm

re: #217 Guanxi88
No one thinks about the fact that for every job from America that is outsourced, there are lots more brought here by foreign corps..... think of Nissan, Toyota, etc. I wonder if their citizens bitch about all the outsourcing to the US......

227 Guanxi88  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:17:16pm

re: #226 tradewind

No one thinks about the fact that for every job from America that is outsourced, there are lots more brought here by foreign corps... think of Nissan, Toyota, etc. I wonder if their citizens bitch about all the outsourcing to the US...

I wouldn't mind one bit if our guys can swipe work from other countries; I'm kinda a nationalist in that respect, and admit freely that I'm no free market purist.

228 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:20:57pm

re: #227 Guanxi88

I wouldn't mind one bit if our guys can swipe work from other countries; I'm kinda a nationalist in that respect, and admit freely that I'm no free market purist.

our companies go there to get out of environmental and safety costs, their companies come here to get away from the unions

229 _RememberTonyC  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:21:19pm

re: #37 recusancy

New Yorkers came down on the side of tolerance and minority rights. Arizonans, not so much.


you are so quick to judge them .... but I guess you're a mind reader, aren't you! only those who agree with you are perceptive enough to peer deeply into the hearts of Arizonans and know for sure that the state is full of racists who care nothing about enforcing the law. All those rubes from AZ want to do is persecute minorities. Thank the Lord we have your powers of clairvoyance to guide us.

230 Jimmah  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:24:41pm

The shreiking harpy is appealing for "muslims of conscience" to join her crusade against the mosque.

Shriek's definition of "muslim of conscience" is apparently one who thinks that all manifestations of Islam are an evil insult to all things decent.

Which also happens to be her definition of a jew or christian of conscience, of course.

231 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:27:57pm

re: #229 _RememberTonyC

you are so quick to judge them ... but I guess you're a mind reader, aren't you! only those who agree with you are perceptive enough to peer deeply into the hearts of Arizonans and know for sure that the state is full of racists who care nothing about enforcing the law. All those rubes from AZ want to do is persecute minorities. Thank the Lord we have your powers of clairvoyance to guide us.

The AZ law is flawed and a suboptimal response, but it could hardly have been otherwise, the entire system is flawed and in need of overhaul.

232 _RememberTonyC  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:32:31pm

re: #231 ralphieboy

The AZ law is flawed and a suboptimal response, but it could hardly have been otherwise, the entire system is flawed and in need of overhaul.

I have no issue with the mosque in NYC, but I do have an issue with those who feel it's just fine for New Yorkers to make decisions about New York, but when Arizonans try to make a decision about a major issue in their sphere of influence, it's NOT OK. Because, you know, those scummy Arizonans are just a bunch of racists. Never mind that those judging Arizonans probably don't live there and are also not as well informed about the laws as those who do. Hypocrisy abounds ...

233 Guanxi88  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:34:56pm

re: #232 _RememberTonyC

One's a politically correct outcome, and desirable; the other is not, and so those who do it are damned as bigots, irrespective of motive or purpose or even the plain meaning of the law.

234 Jimmah  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:35:35pm

re: #37 recusancy

New Yorkers came down on the side of tolerance and minority rights. Arizonans, not so much.

Exactly.

235 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:35:58pm

re: #232 _RememberTonyC

I have no issue with the mosque in NYC, but I do have an issue with those who feel it's just fine for New Yorkers to make decisions about New York, but when Arizonans try to make a decision about a major issue in their sphere of influence, it's NOT OK. Because, you know, those scummy Arizonans are just a bunch of racists. Never mind that those judging Arizonans probably don't live there and are also not as well informed about the laws as those who do. Hypocrisy abounds ...

I am from Arizona, but no longer live there. They managed to get enough national attention to get Obama to send National Guard troops to the border.

A first step. But they are not in a position to overhaul immigration policy, that is a federal issue. Any solutions Arizona implements on its own will be only a patch on the problem.

236 Jimmah  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:40:24pm

re: #229 _RememberTonyC

you are so quick to judge them ... but I guess you're a mind reader, aren't you! only those who agree with you are perceptive enough to peer deeply into the hearts of Arizonans and know for sure that the state is full of racists who care nothing about enforcing the law. All those rubes from AZ want to do is persecute minorities. Thank the Lord we have your powers of clairvoyance to guide us.

Well, I'm no mind reader, but I do have access to various arcane magicks that liberals and moderates are privy to and I am consequently somehow able to see that tolerance and minority rights were not at the top of the list of concerns of those in Arizona who passed this law.

237 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:40:33pm

re: #230 Jimmah

The shreiking harpy is appealing for "muslims of conscience" to join her crusade against the mosque.

Shriek's definition of "muslim of conscience" is apparently one who thinks that all manifestations of Islam are an evil insult to all things decent.

Which also happens to be her definition of a jew or christian of conscience, of course.

It's always ironic when she does that, because she's pretending to be the champion of the same people she would round up and put in camps if she could.

238 What, me worry?  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:40:42pm

re: #232 _RememberTonyC

I have no issue with the mosque in NYC, but I do have an issue with those who feel it's just fine for New Yorkers to make decisions about New York, but when Arizonans try to make a decision about a major issue in their sphere of influence, it's NOT OK. Because, you know, those scummy Arizonans are just a bunch of racists. Never mind that those judging Arizonans probably don't live there and are also not as well informed about the laws as those who do. Hypocrisy abounds ...

Well, I think the decision to build the mosque 2 blocks from the tower site is awful. It's not against the law or unconstitutional, it just flies in the face of common sense and decency. The Arizona law may very well be illegal altogether (and I think it is) and that's a different issue.

I'm not against mosques. I have no problem with mosques or churches or any places of worship. There are more churches one mile square around my house than Starbucks and THAT is amazing! There is also one mosque and no Jewish temples. But I am against THIS mosque in THIS place because I think it's insulting to the community.

In the end, the New Yorkers decided YEA so who am I to complain?

239 Guanxi88  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:45:19pm

re: #236 Jimmah

Well, I'm no mind reader, but I do have access to various arcane magicks that liberals and moderates are privy to and I am consequently somehow able to see that tolerance and minority rights were not at the top of the list of concerns of those in Arizona who passed this law.

True; solicitous concern for the feelings of others is not always a summum bonum, nor is it necessarily the end of all legislative action.

(And howya been? Haven't typed at you for ages.)

240 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:48:19pm

re: #238 marjoriemoon

Well, I think the decision to build the mosque 2 blocks from the tower site is awful. It's not against the law or unconstitutional, it just flies in the face of common sense and decency. The Arizona law may very well be illegal altogether (and I think it is) and that's a different issue.

I'm not against mosques. I have no problem with mosques or churches or any places of worship. There are more churches one mile square around my house than Starbucks and THAT is amazing! There is also one mosque and no Jewish temples. But I am against THIS mosque in THIS place because I think it's insulting to the community.

In the end, the New Yorkers decided YEA so who am I to complain?

Putting a mosque up there is going to attract a lot of public attention, it could be a great opportunity for Muslims to show that they are not a threat to America and its Way of life.

But if they fail, they will fail big.

241 Guanxi88  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:49:05pm

re: #236 Jimmah

And to clarify, the purpose of the law was to discourage the presence of persons illegally in the United States in the territory of Arizona.

242 Jimmah  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:51:45pm

re: #237 Charles

It's always ironic when she does that, because she's pretending to be the champion of the same people she would round up and put in camps if she could.

Yep - unless they are "good muslims" - ie those who agree with her that Islam is a uniquely vile and contemptible religion, they are scum that needs to be removed from decent society.

Interesting to note the correspondence here with the Islamic fundamentalists definition of 'dhimmi' - a christian or jew living under muslim authority who is tolerated on account of his meekness and acknowledgement of the superiority of Islam.

This is what Geller expects of muslims living in the west, only if anything she goes further, requiring muslims to also express disgust at their own religion.

243 SpaceJesus  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:51:50pm

freedom of religious expression for people who aren't christian or jewish? HA

that's the weirdest thing i've ever heard in america

244 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:53:29pm

re: #241 Guanxi88

And to clarify, the purpose of the law was to discourage the presence of persons illegally in the United States in the territory of Arizona.


It was a local attempt to solve a problem that must be addressed at a natinal level. It cannot be anything but another patch on a big busted boiler.

245 _RememberTonyC  Wed, May 26, 2010 12:59:57pm

re: #235 ralphieboy

I am from Arizona, but no longer live there. They managed to get enough national attention to get Obama to send National Guard troops to the border.

A first step. But they are not in a position to overhaul immigration policy, that is a federal issue. Any solutions Arizona implements on its own will be only a patch on the problem.


I see it as a somewhat desperate move and a cry for help by concerned Arizonans. And the fact that the POTUS is finally concerned enough to send Nat'l Guard troops means he may finally be hearing their concerns. It shows that he just may be more pragmatic and understanding than those who find it easier to simply label the people of Arizona as racists. IMHO, those people are closed minded and lack any sense of empathy with those in Arizona who are worried about their state.

246 _RememberTonyC  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:00:53pm

re: #234 Jimmah

Exactly.

a simpleminded response from a person who lacks empathy with anyone who dares to disagree.

247 _RememberTonyC  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:01:53pm

re: #236 Jimmah

Well, I'm no mind reader, but I do have access to various arcane magicks that liberals and moderates are privy to and I am consequently somehow able to see that tolerance and minority rights were not at the top of the list of concerns of those in Arizona who passed this law.

arrogance on your part .... what a shame.

248 Jimmah  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:02:58pm

re: #241 Guanxi88

And to clarify, the purpose of the law was to discourage the presence of persons illegally in the United States in the territory of Arizona.

It promotes the arrest of people who 'don't look like they are from around here', whatever the hell that is supposed to mean in the modern USA. It is a law born of bigotry, and will only encourage more.

It is every country's right to enforce immigration law, but in a multi ethnic society we have to ensure that our laws do not encourage and promote xenophobic bigotry. The last thing America needs with regard to this is individual states making things up as they go along to satiate ignorant local appetites.

249 _RememberTonyC  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:04:32pm

re: #248 Jimmah

It promotes the arrest of people who 'don't look like they are from around here', whatever the hell that is supposed to mean in the modern USA. It is a law born of bigotry, and will only encourage more.

It is every country's right to enforce immigration law, but in a multi ethnic society we have to ensure that our laws do not encourage and promote xenophobic bigotry. The last thing America needs with regard to this is individual states making things up as they go along to satiate ignorant local appetites.

there you have it ...

250 Jimmah  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:06:10pm

re: #239 Guanxi88

True; solicitous concern for the feelings of others is not always a summum bonum, nor is it necessarily the end of all legislative action.

(And howya been? Haven't typed at you for ages.)

hi there Guanxi88!
hope you are having a good time there. Sorry - been too busy with NYC to post much. Also ice-ski and I have to share the one PC at the moment, and what PC time I have is usually taken up with other stuff.

251 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:11:01pm

re: #229 _RememberTonyC

you are so quick to judge them ... but I guess you're a mind reader, aren't you! only those who agree with you are perceptive enough to peer deeply into the hearts of Arizonans and know for sure that the state is full of racists who care nothing about enforcing the law. All those rubes from AZ want to do is persecute minorities. Thank the Lord we have your powers of clairvoyance to guide us.

Will you get over this? I don't see you pulling this 'how can you read their hearts and souls' business about anyone else.

I disagree with the goddamn Arizona law. So do a lot of people. Trying as hard as you can to make this about 'rubes' is really irriting.

252 Jimmah  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:11:25pm

re: #246 _RememberTonyC

a simpleminded response from a person who lacks empathy with anyone who dares to disagree.

Um, thanks for the mind scan, tonyC.

You might have some trouble explaining your conclusions to people like Dark Falcon, Cato, RightWingConspirator, Floral giraffe, Dragon Lady etc with whom I disagree on many issues yet get along with just great.

253 GatorAtLaw  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:12:08pm

re: #124 lostlakehiker

Conservatives have seen promises gone back on before. Federal income tax will only touch the rich. Check. Civil rights laws will never set merit aside. Check. Social security will never be taxed. Check. Alternative minimum tax will only impact the rich. Check.

Sharia law will never be given a place in American law.

That hasn't even been promised.

Alright, explain to me how Sharia could get past the rock that is the first amendment, the fifth amendment, the sixth amendment, and the eighth amendment.

Go on, explain away.

254 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:15:17pm

re: #232 _RememberTonyC

I have no issue with the mosque in NYC, but I do have an issue with those who feel it's just fine for New Yorkers to make decisions about New York, but when Arizonans try to make a decision about a major issue in their sphere of influence, it's NOT OK. Because, you know, those scummy Arizonans are just a bunch of racists. Never mind that those judging Arizonans probably don't live there and are also not as well informed about the laws as those who do. Hypocrisy abounds ...

Actually, I am not seeing a whole lot of hypocrisy coming from anyone here. People are supporting positions with which they agree, and critiquing positions with which they do not agree.

255 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:16:43pm

re: #245 _RememberTonyC

I see it as a somewhat desperate move and a cry for help by concerned Arizonans. And the fact that the POTUS is finally concerned enough to send Nat'l Guard troops means he may finally be hearing their concerns. It shows that he just may be more pragmatic and understanding than those who find it easier to simply label the people of Arizona as racists. IMHO, those people are closed minded and lack any sense of empathy with those in Arizona who are worried about their state.

Brave little Arizona! God, the HUMANITY!!

256 _RememberTonyC  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:16:54pm

re: #251 SanFranciscoZionist

Will you get over this? I don't see you pulling this 'how can you read their hearts and souls' business about anyone else.

I disagree with the goddamn Arizona law. So do a lot of people. Trying as hard as you can to make this about 'rubes' is really irriting.

i won't get over it because i just cannot believe that everyone in arizona is some sort of bad person. just because "conventional wisdom" is against this position does not mean it is without merit. so maybe you'll just have to ignore me if my points are so worthless.

257 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:18:48pm

re: #256 _RememberTonyC

i won't get over it because i just cannot believe that everyone in arizona is some sort of bad person. just because "conventional wisdom" is against this position does not mean it is without merit. so maybe you'll just have to ignore me if my points are so worthless.

Just because you've decided to frame the argument as 'anyone saying there is anything ineffective, bad or racist about this bill must mean they think all Arizona voters are bad people' does not make it so.

258 _RememberTonyC  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:20:41pm

re: #252 Jimmah

Um, thanks for the mind scan, tonyC.

You might have some trouble explaining your conclusions to people like Dark Falcon, Cato, RightWingConspirator, Floral giraffe, Dragon Lady etc with whom I disagree on many issues yet get along with just great.

their opinions are valid, just as yours and mine are valid. there is no objective, measurable "right" and "wrong" here. I am willing to try and see this situation from the perspective of the unpopular side, while some others are not. I know the law is controversial, but I also wonder if it is a cry for help more than anything else?

259 _RememberTonyC  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:21:49pm

re: #257 SanFranciscoZionist

Just because you've decided to frame the argument as 'anyone saying there is anything ineffective, bad or racist about this bill must mean they think all Arizona voters are bad people' does not make it so.

that is the vibe that I have consistently felt from many on this board who disagree with the law. I don't believe I am imagining it

260 iceweasel  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:26:26pm

re: #257 SanFranciscoZionist

Just because you've decided to frame the argument as 'anyone saying there is anything ineffective, bad or racist about this bill must mean they think all Arizona voters are bad people' does not make it so.

That's exactly what he's doing, and he was doing it yesterday as well. Even came back to the overnight thread to post some extended and snotty rants about New Yorkers and coastal elites. That would be while he was doing his mindreading schtick about me.

261 lostlakehiker  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:32:25pm

re: #154 ralphieboy

And the businesses know that if other companies are hiring illegals and getting away with it, they are putting themselves at a disadvantage by obeying the law.

This is why we need a sound and comprehensive approach to immigration in this country, and not just a patchwork of local "we need to do something!" solutions.

A sound and comprehensive solution would be to forbid hiring illegal aliens, introduce papers that were forgery-proof*, enforce the laws, deport those here illegally, and secure the border.

A merciful variant on this, and thus much to be preferred, would be to exempt from deportation those who have completed some part of what we want of legal immigrants: they've learned some English; they understand something of how our laws are meant to work; and they've limited their law-breaking to minor infractions, apart from overstaying their visa or getting themselves smuggled in in the first place. Those exempted under this provision would gain papers making them eligible to be hired, and would be put on the path to citizenship.

But still, make it illegal to hire without valid identity papers, and still, secure the border.

I was correct in my observation that the illegal alien who is hired off the books is, all else held equal, better off than if the person who hired him had passed him over. This would seem to be self evident. Why else does he seek work, except that when he gets it, he's better off than if he doesn't? And how does this clearly factually correct and logical observation earn a passel of downdings?

The reason we're seeing this patchwork of local laws is that the federal government has in effect made it policy not to enforce the laws now on the books.

Why now are we seeing these patchwork steps? While the economy was cooking along, and before the current wave of kidnappings got going, this was less of a problem. But now, with unemployment at about 10% and in reality quite a bit higher, illegal alien competition for jobs has more of an impact on the chances of citizens who aren't in a position to get a good job, to get instead at least some sort of job.

The liberal position seems to be that immigration is good, illegal immigration is better, and citizens whose skills don't put them beyond reach of competition from illegal aliens are of no particular interest. Maybe they don't vote, or maybe how they do vote is predictable and does not ride on immigration policy. Whatever the reason, they are the ones most directly hurt by illegal immigration.

*We can make hundred-dollar-bills that are very nearly forgery proof. ID papers could be made much tougher to forge by incorporating biometric data into the ID.

262 _RememberTonyC  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:34:36pm

re: #260 iceweasel

That's exactly what he's doing, and he was doing it yesterday as well. Even came back to the overnight thread to post some extended and snotty rants about New Yorkers and coastal elites. That would be while he was doing his mindreading schtick about me.

care to back this up with evidence?

263 Nimed  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:38:42pm

re: #258 _RememberTonyC

I know the law is controversial, but I also wonder if it is a cry for help more than anything else?

Help in what? Not to pile on you here, but AFAIK there was nothing happening in Arizona that doesn't happen in other border states, and AZ has pretty average crime statistics for any state.

You seem to be saying that because this is a local matter, Arizonans necessarily know better, so this law couldn't possibly be motivated by bigotry despite all appearances to the contrary.

264 Tats66  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:39:55pm

As a former police officer in El Paso, TX, we had to deal with alot of illegal aliens. It was pretty much policy that we could not stop and detain based SOLELY on the suspicion of their residential status, but once lawfully detained, ie. suspicious subject, criminal offense, then yes we could inquire about it. Most of the time, especially id the offense was a class c misdemeanor (minor) we would simply take them to a Border Patrol processing center for them to be deported back. It was a standing joke that they would be back in the US before we finished our shift.

The arguments I keep hearing against the Arizona law is that it somehow lends itself to the POTENTIAL of abuse and racial profiling. It relies on the officers' assessment of PROBABLE CAUSE, which is the basis for law enforcement overall. If officers are entrusted with disseminating probable cause on a daily basis for its citizens, from felonies on downwards, why the sudden mistrust of their sense of probable cause in relation to the Arizona law? Every aspect of our system lends itself to abuse, and the system also is pretty adamant of determining of the officers used probable cause. Your average officer on the street is honorable will be concerned with probable cause, I cant envision a band of "Illegal Alien" hunter teams that set out from each shift meeting in search of illegals.

As far as this mosque issue, I just feel that maybe a more neutral, multi cultural type center would be more apropos. I'm not crazy about a mosque in that particular site, but I'm not in favor of any one religion, one culture type facility in that location either. Lets take EVERYONES feelings, especially those that had personal loss on 911 into account and not rush to show how "progressive" we are by throwing up a mosque or Muslim related facility up without thinking it through.

265 What, me worry?  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:41:18pm

re: #240 ralphieboy

Putting a mosque up there is going to attract a lot of public attention, it could be a great opportunity for Muslims to show that they are not a threat to America and its Way of life.

But if they fail, they will fail big.

I was born in Queens, but never really lived there. All my family was born there and most were reared there.

New Yorkers, by and large, are very tolerant people. I mean, if they don't like you, it's generally because you're a moron. Being black, white, jewish, christian, whatever isn't so much of an issue as it might be in a more rural area without the amount of diversity you'll find in NY.

My point in saying this, I don't think NYers have to make the point of tolerance and diversity to each other. I could be dead wrong about that, because I thought about what you said before I typed what I did above. But trying to picture myself there again, I think I would vote no. Any other place would be fine.

266 iceweasel  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:41:29pm

re: #262 _RememberTonyC

care to back this up with evidence?

Sure. Anyone who likes can go read your flaming meltdown of yesterday directed at me over several posts, -- all because I agreed with another poster that the NY Post is a despicable rag.

It's much like your whining of today. Naturally I'm not going to be responding to you further on that thread, despite your frequent attempts to get further response.

It was quite the fascinating read for anyone interested in the psychology of butthurt, though. Lots of whining from you about 'the new LGF', lots of projection, lots of namecalling.
Just like you're doing here.

267 iceweasel  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:43:42pm

LOL at all the AM Wingnut Wave morons, who have been desperately spamming overnight threads for weeks trying to gin up an outrageous outrage over the mosque that isn't even a mosque. They're really unhappy now.

Waa, waaa! Why can't we hate on Muslims like we used to? Waaa!

268 _RememberTonyC  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:44:38pm

re: #263 Nimed

Help in what? Not to pile on you here, but AFAIK there was nothing happening in Arizona that doesn't happen in other border states, and AZ has pretty average crime statistics for any state.

You seem to be saying that because this is a local matter, Arizonans necessarily know better, so this law couldn't possibly be motivated by bigotry despite all appearances to the contrary.

I have no issue with your question. I think people in AZ are scared. I don't live there, but when I see news reports about Phoenix being called a "kidnapping capital," I guess I can feel sympathy for those who are affected by border security issues and drug gang activity. Is the law a panacea? Obviously not. But when the politicians and people of the state feel they're being abandoned by the fed govt (which includes previous Republican administrations, by the way), I can somewhat understand that they have concerns. And if they don't feel the feds share their concerns, they might try something on a local or state level. That is how I really see the situation.

269 _RememberTonyC  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:45:39pm

re: #266 iceweasel

Sure. Anyone who likes can go read your flaming meltdown of yesterday directed at me over several posts, -- all because I agreed with another poster that the NY Post is a despicable rag.

It's much like your whining of today. Naturally I'm not going to be responding to you further on that thread, despite your frequent attempts to get further response.

It was quite the fascinating read for anyone interested in the psychology of butthurt, though. Lots of whining from you about 'the new LGF', lots of projection, lots of namecalling.
Just like you're doing here.

no specific evidence of what you said in #260 .... got it.

270 iceweasel  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:47:58pm

re: #269 _RememberTonyC

no specific evidence of what you said in #260 ... got it.

It's all over yesterday's overnight. Do you really imagine I'm going to bother to link to it or read your crap again?
SFZ clearly remembers it, as she's already called you out on it again.

271 What, me worry?  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:50:11pm

re: #264 Tats66

As a former police officer in El Paso, TX, we had to deal with alot of illegal aliens. It was pretty much policy that we could not stop and detain based SOLELY on the suspicion of their residential status, but once lawfully detained, ie. suspicious subject, criminal offense, then yes we could inquire about it. Most of the time, especially id the offense was a class c misdemeanor (minor) we would simply take them to a Border Patrol processing center for them to be deported back. It was a standing joke that they would be back in the US before we finished our shift.

The arguments I keep hearing against the Arizona law is that it somehow lends itself to the POTENTIAL of abuse and racial profiling. It relies on the officers' assessment of PROBABLE CAUSE, which is the basis for law enforcement overall. If officers are entrusted with disseminating probable cause on a daily basis for its citizens, from felonies on downwards, why the sudden mistrust of their sense of probable cause in relation to the Arizona law? Every aspect of our system lends itself to abuse, and the system also is pretty adamant of determining of the officers used probable cause. Your average officer on the street is honorable will be concerned with probable cause, I cant envision a band of "Illegal Alien" hunter teams that set out from each shift meeting in search of illegals.

As far as this mosque issue, I just feel that maybe a more neutral, multi cultural type center would be more apropos. I'm not crazy about a mosque in that particular site, but I'm not in favor of any one religion, one culture type facility in that location either. Lets take EVERYONES feelings, especially those that had personal loss on 911 into account and not rush to show how "progressive" we are by throwing up a mosque or Muslim related facility up without thinking it through.

Hi Tats. The thing is, if it was "probable cause" I don't think people would be so upset. It's not. It's "reasonable cause" and that's casting a much wider net. If a man or woman has an accent and looks Hispanic, is that reasonable enough? Because that alone is not probable.

Maybe the way to resolve the mosque issue is to build a church on one side and a synagogue on the other. Then it could just be one stop shopping.

272 _RememberTonyC  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:51:01pm

re: #266 iceweasel

Sure. Anyone who likes can go read your flaming meltdown of yesterday directed at me over several posts, -- all because I agreed with another poster that the NY Post is a despicable rag.

It's much like your whining of today. Naturally I'm not going to be responding to you further on that thread, despite your frequent attempts to get further response.

It was quite the fascinating read for anyone interested in the psychology of butthurt, though. Lots of whining from you about 'the new LGF', lots of projection, lots of namecalling.
Just like you're doing here.

you're really a piece of work, aren't you. I cited an excellent article in the NY Post, but folks like you chose to disparage the paper, and by extension that good article instead of considering the merits of the article! I cannot share that sort of closedminded thinking. I'm not a huge fan of certain left wing sites, but if there's a good piece on one of those sites, I will give it a fair hearing. I try to consider more than one side of key issues, try it sometimes.

273 _RememberTonyC  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:51:36pm

re: #270 iceweasel

It's all over yesterday's overnight. Do you really imagine I'm going to bother to link to it or read your crap again?
SFZ clearly remembers it, as she's already called you out on it again.

you made specific accusations and did not back it up .... EPIC FAIL.

274 _RememberTonyC  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:52:38pm

i'm out for awhile ..... have a nice day everyone.

275 iceweasel  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:55:14pm

re: #265 marjoriemoon


My point in saying this, I don't think NYers have to make the point of tolerance and diversity to each other. I could be dead wrong about that, because I thought about what you said before I typed what I did above. But trying to picture myself there again, I think I would vote no. Any other place would be fine.

Jimmah and I were at Ground Zero last week. (the temporary museum/info center they have up across the street is really a disgrace, btw.)

I think a lot of people weighing in on this might not be that familiar with the geography of Lower Manhattan.
You know how much stuff is within a 2 1/2 block radius of ground zero? LOTS.

That's really why the community voted for it--It affects nothing having to do with Ground Zero. It's not some superscary mega mosque looming over it (with height of the planned tower, good luck with that!) the way Geller et al would have people believe.

BTW, Jimmah and I also visited the Irish Hunger memorial at the end of Vesey and North End Avenue. Very tiny memorial but very pretty and very moving. And not at all insulting to the memory of 9-11./

Seriously, if people want to be outraged over something to do with ground zero, they need to take a look at that temporary museum. Appalling.

276 Nimed  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:55:30pm

re: #268 _RememberTonyC

I have no issue with your question. I think people in AZ are scared. I don't live there, but when I see news reports about Phoenix being called a "kidnapping capital," I guess I can feel sympathy for those who are affected by border security issues and drug gang activity.

But the vast majority of kidnap victims in Phoenix are illegal aliens! How is this law going to help?

I'm sure some Arizonans are scared. I'm just saying they don't seem to have any substantial reason to be -- and that other states in a similar situation don't react like this.

277 What, me worry?  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:55:42pm

I have one comment and then I have to dash...

My mom has been in Tucson about 20 years now (fluent in Espanol, too). She and her friends wear a button now everyday, "Ask me for my identification." It's her little statement of solidarity.

When I grow up, I wanna be just like my momma.

278 iceweasel  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:56:57pm

re: #273 _RememberTonyC

you made specific accusations and did not back it up ... EPIC FAIL.

lol. Yeah, I have time and interest to go link every single post where you were a gigantic asshole yesterday.

It's quicker for people to just go read that thread.
Besides, you've been doing an excellent imitation of an asshole right here today as well.

279 Tats66  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:58:34pm

re: #271 marjoriemoon

heya....to my knowledge, probable and reasonable is one and the same in its law enforement application. Living in a border town, which is MUCH closer to the border than Tuscon and Phoenix, I just cannot imagine singling out someone based on a hispanic accent or looking hispanic..the large majority in these states will fit that description lol.......off hand I can imagine maybe loitering laws, once involved in petty crime, hitchiking ordinances, complaints of panhandling, certainly not limited to those examples......but I think the automatic asumptions of OMG! if your hispanic and your going to 7-11 for a slurpee, you can get jacked up by the Race Police are gross exaggerations. If an officer dosnt show cause, can you imagine how muich trouble he's going to be in? Police work isnt as unrestrained as TV and media might suggest.

280 What, me worry?  Wed, May 26, 2010 1:58:39pm

re: #275 iceweasel

Jimmah and I were at Ground Zero last week. (the temporary museum/info center they have up across the street is really a disgrace, btw.)

I think a lot of people weighing in on this might not be that familiar with the geography of Lower Manhattan.
You know how much stuff is within a 2 1/2 block radius of ground zero? LOTS.

That's really why the community voted for it--It affects nothing having to do with Ground Zero. It's not some superscary mega mosque looming over it (with height of the planned tower, good luck with that!) the way Geller et al would have people believe.

BTW, Jimmah and I also visited the Irish Hunger memorial at the end of Vesey and North End Avenue. Very tiny memorial but very pretty and very moving. And not at all insulting to the memory of 9-11./

Seriously, if people want to be outraged over something to do with ground zero, they need to take a look at that temporary museum. Appalling.

I think Lawhawk said the same upthread. I saw a satellite view of the area and it was hard to tell.

Like I say, if NYers are ok with it, I don't know why anyone else has a problem. Maybe if I saw it, I would think differently.

Sorry to hear the temporary museum sucks. What's there? How big is it?

281 What, me worry?  Wed, May 26, 2010 2:02:05pm

re: #279 Tats66

heya...to my knowledge, probable and reasonable is one and the same in its law enforement application. Living in a border town, which is MUCH closer to the border than Tuscon and Phoenix, I just cannot imagine singling out someone based on a hispanic accent or looking hispanic..the large majority in these states will fit that description lol...off hand I can imagine maybe loitering laws, once involved in petty crime, hitchiking ordinances, complaints of panhandling, certainly not limited to those examples...but I think the automatic asumptions of OMG! if your hispanic and your going to 7-11 for a slurpee, you can get jacked up by the Race Police are gross exaggerations. If an officer dosnt show cause, can you imagine how muich trouble he's going to be in? Police work isnt as unrestrained as TV and media might suggest.

True, but there's a reason the amendment is phrased that way:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Written differently, a bad cop could abuse that very easily unfortunately.

282 iceweasel  Wed, May 26, 2010 2:03:32pm

re: #280 marjoriemoon

I think Lawhawk said the same upthread. I saw a satellite view of the area and it was hard to tell.

Like I say, if NYers are ok with it, I don't know why anyone else has a problem. Maybe if I saw it, I would think differently.

Sorry to hear the temporary museum sucks. What's there? How big is it?

It's really small--one room. And it's set up more for people to buy the 9-11 experience than anything else. It made me sick. Tshirts, mugs, xmas ornaments, you name it.
One freakin wall with a timeline -- and then racks of merchandise. (lots with NYPD or NYFD logo).

Oh and a nice little video room in the back where you can 'record your 9-11 story'.

I didn't even see a plaque with victims names. (they had a temporary one at the site itself, but NOTHING in the visitor centre/museum whatever they're calling it. I guess they need that space for selling more trinkets.)

283 What, me worry?  Wed, May 26, 2010 2:04:38pm

re: #282 iceweasel

It's really small--one room. And it's set up more for people to buy the 9-11 experience than anything else. It made me sick. Tshirts, mugs, xmas ornaments, you name it.
One freakin wall with a timeline -- and then racks of merchandise. (lots with NYPD or NYFD logo).

Oh and a nice little video room in the back where you can 'record your 9-11 story'.

I didn't even see a plaque with victims names. (they had a temporary one at the site itself, but NOTHING in the visitor centre/museum whatever they're calling it. I guess they need that space for selling more trinkets.)

God bless capitalism.

It does sound very dismal and not very respectful, doesn't it.

284 Tats66  Wed, May 26, 2010 2:07:52pm

re: #281 marjoriemoon

I feel the concern believe me, but the "bad cop" is going to abuse his authority in all aspects, not just this issue. There isnt a law on the books that can't be abused by a bad cop.

285 iceweasel  Wed, May 26, 2010 2:10:33pm

re: #283 marjoriemoon

God bless capitalism.

It does sound very dismal and not very respectful, doesn't it.

I can't understand it. It's nearly ten years on and that's all we have there. It was very upsetting. It's like being in an airport gift shop or the souvenir shop at the empire state building or any random souvenir shop in midtown. Junk.

286 lostlakehiker  Wed, May 26, 2010 2:12:17pm

re: #216 Fozzie Bear

... and who work in places where labor and environmental protections are nonexistent.

Imo, a global "free market" only makes sense if the playing field is level. We need to level the playing field, via tariffs. I think it should be done on the corporate level rather than the national level, since it is conceivable that two factories in China, for example, could have vastly differing labor conditions.

Just off the top of my head, perhaps tariff companies that don't get some kind of certification, renewed yearly, that proves that they adhere to American labor laws and environmental regulations, as a minimum, regardless of location. Sounds complicated, but I think it could be done. (Violating those standards would result in a loss of certification, and imposition of tariffs.)

Almost always, those working for those low wages are working with equipment that is far from state of the art. With inferior tools, they cannot possibly produce value at the pace of a typical U.S. factory worker. With those tools, and the low productivity and constrained quality that goes with inferior tools, to pay U.S. wages out of revenue from sales is impossible.

Adults working in lower tier foreign factories that are reasonably safe and clean, for wages we would scorn, are on the path up and out of poverty. Their wages are a better deal than working back on the family farm. They're better than most work that's available to them. They're better than our own ancestors earned, when they had factory jobs. These factory workers are not our enemies, and if the playing field is not level, there are two tilts at work: their company can pay lower wages, but the machinery is second tier stuff.

To use top tier machinery requires highly skilled workers with the right attitudes, managers and foremen who really know what they're doing, and good management. It requires a secure electricity supply. In short, it requires first-world conditions. Factories with that kind of equipment and management would be utter fools to stint on wages. High wages attract the best workers, and only the best workers are well suited to working with that kind of jaw-droppingly expensive machinery.

287 SpaceJesus  Wed, May 26, 2010 2:12:23pm

re: #264 Tats66


the AZ law requires reasonable suspicion. in order to achieve reasonable suspicion the officer has to point to "specific, articulable facts" that make he or she believe the person in question is an illegal immigrant. it has to be more than a hunch. that's where the problem is.

288 Fozzie Bear  Wed, May 26, 2010 2:13:36pm

I think honestly the best thing to do with ground zero would be fill it with dirt, plant some trees and grass, put some benches and a reflecting pond in, a few benches, and put in a small tastefully done and understated memorial listing the names of the victims.

Simple, cheap, and useful. That part of town needs a little greenery anyway. It would avoid another decade of bullshit wrangling over absurd building plans, as well.

289 Fozzie Bear  Wed, May 26, 2010 2:14:33pm

re: #288 Fozzie Bear

Did i mention benches? PIMF

290 Tats66  Wed, May 26, 2010 2:15:02pm

re: #285 iceweasel

Wow thats pretty sickening actually. I have planned on pilgrimage to Ground Zero myself, and would certainly expect more of a memorial. I suppose the only way I could accept the souvenirs is if the proceeds go to a family victim fund or something along those lines...

291 lostlakehiker  Wed, May 26, 2010 2:15:57pm

re: #210 Guanxi88

Quite a few have some very real problems with that; sadly, however, their views are not widely held in leadership at present.

Fortunately, their views are not widely held in leadership. Protectionism and "America-firster"ism is a recipe for reduced trade and thus reduced world prosperity. We should protect our borders and limit who may move here and take up residency. We should not be looking to crimp trade.

Does the Indian support-technician taking what for us is the 2AM shift take a job that would more rationally be done by a sleep-starved American? No.

292 iceweasel  Wed, May 26, 2010 2:19:40pm

re: #290 Tats66

Wow thats pretty sickening actually. I have planned on pilgrimage to Ground Zero myself, and would certainly expect more of a memorial. I suppose the only way I could accept the souvenirs is if the proceeds go to a family victim fund or something along those lines...

People want the souvenirs, they'll buy them somewhere. Sidewalk vendors have been making money since 9-14 or so selling photos of the attack. And i think all official nypd and nyfd merchandise does benefit the fd and pd. (most of the items I saw did have departmental logos)

I just wish the current visitor centre was set up in some sort of tasteful, respectful, and informative way. Currently, it isn't at all.

293 Tats66  Wed, May 26, 2010 2:20:17pm

re: #287 SpaceJesus

What your describing, regardless of the wording, is probable cause....which is definitely more than mere suspicion....an officer better be able to articulate why he even approached the subject in question.

I'm just trying to add some perspective from a law enforcement perspective and as one that has had to arrest illegal aliens in the past. I think the law in place is politically explosive, but is almost basically whats in place already, especially in the border region I live in.

I am not advocating the wanton rounding up of suspected illegals believe me :)

294 Tats66  Wed, May 26, 2010 2:23:33pm

re: #292 iceweasel

Agree BIGtime sir

295 lostlakehiker  Wed, May 26, 2010 2:24:08pm

re: #162 wrenchwench

Bullshit. Illegals are vulnerable to all kinds of abuse. Who are they going to report it to? Just because they take the job doesn't mean it's a great gig.

ABUSING the workers you hire injures them. If you do that. HIRING them, assuming you honor the contract you enter into with them, doesn't hurt THEM. If it did, if they would rather not have that work than have it, they wouldn't take it.

How can this possibly be so hard to understand?

Hiring illegal aliens, assuming you pay them what you promised, and at least the legal minimum, and assuming your working conditions are safe enough to pass OSHA inspection, is something the illegal alien who takes the job will prefer, both before and after the transaction, to not being hired.

We wouldn't have the kind of flow of illegal aliens we do have if their universal fate, upon getting here and getting a job, was to be put upon so severely they wish they'd never come. It happens, granted. Some employers are rats and they cheat their employees. But the ones who pay the wages as promised and protect life and limb on the job, well, the arrangement works to the advantage of both employer and employee. The third party, the guy who would have had the job at a higher wage, above board, is the one who is hurt. And more generally, the public, through the erosion of the whole idea of rule of law.

296 mich-again  Wed, May 26, 2010 2:30:00pm

Question. Will women be allowed to enter without wearing a hijab? Just wondering about how "tolerant" of other cultures the new community center will be.

297 SpaceJesus  Wed, May 26, 2010 2:36:25pm

re: #293 Tats66

i used to live just up the river from you by the way.

anyhow, probable cause and reasonable suspicion are not the same thing, probable cause has a higher burden of proof. i guess im coming at this from the standpoint of someone who is clerking for a criminal defense lawyer, and as such i get to write motions all the time questioning reasonable suspicion for DUI's. i just don't see how an officer in AZ could point to any non-racial or non-ethnic facts that could support his or her reasonable suspicion that somebody is an illegal immigrant. unless of course illegals have taken to wearing t-shirts that say "im an illegal immigrant" on them, then i might be horribly wrong.

298 iceweasel  Wed, May 26, 2010 2:46:39pm

re: #296 mich-again

Question. Will women be allowed to enter without wearing a hijab? Just wondering about how "tolerant" of other cultures the new community center will be.

It's normal for women to cover their hair when they enter a mosque as a sign of respect. It's no different than non-Jewish men wearing a yarmulke when they attend a synagogue.
This isn't going to be a mosque in any case.

299 mich-again  Wed, May 26, 2010 2:56:15pm

re: #298 iceweasel

This isn't going to be a mosque in any case.

Well you say that but if you go to their website, they specifically refer to a Mosque and a community center.

Politicians Rally Behind Ground Zero Mosque
LOWER MANHATTAN — New York politicians gathered Thursday afternoon to denounce Tea Party leader Mark Williams and support a mosque and community center planned near ground zero.
300 wrenchwench  Wed, May 26, 2010 2:58:56pm

re: #295 lostlakehiker

ABUSING the workers you hire injures them. If you do that. HIRING them, assuming you honor the contract you enter into with them, doesn't hurt THEM. If it did, if they would rather not have that work than have it, they wouldn't take it.

How can this possibly be so hard to understand?

The punctuation does not enhance the clarity, for one thing.

Hiring illegal aliens, assuming you pay them what you promised, and at least the legal minimum, and assuming your working conditions are safe enough to pass OSHA inspection, is something the illegal alien who takes the job will prefer, both before and after the transaction, to not being hired.

Big assumptions, and a funny. What's the legal minimum wage for an illegal employee?

We wouldn't have the kind of flow of illegal aliens we do have if their universal fate, upon getting here and getting a job, was to be put upon so severely they wish they'd never come. It happens, granted. Some employers are rats and they cheat their employees. But the ones who pay the wages as promised and protect life and limb on the job, well, the arrangement works to the advantage of both employer and employee. The third party, the guy who would have had the job at a higher wage, above board, is the one who is hurt. And more generally, the public, through the erosion of the whole idea of rule of law.

The legal guy who didn't get the job, if he exists, is hurt by not getting the job, I can agree with that. But your generalizations about working conditions are a joke. I certainly would not assert that "their universal fate, upon getting here and getting a job, was to be put upon so severely they wish they'd never come", but I believe you are underplaying the possibility that a significant number of illegal employees are abused, whether by poor working conditions, or theft of wages and/or deductions. I don't understand why you do that.

301 goddamnedfrank  Wed, May 26, 2010 3:26:09pm

re: #296 mich-again

Question. Will women be allowed to enter without wearing a hijab? Just wondering about how "tolerant" of other cultures the new community center will be.

Do you ask this of Mennonites, or the Amish?

302 gamark  Wed, May 26, 2010 3:27:31pm

re: #281 marjoriemoon

True, but there's a reason the amendment is phrased that way:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

And yet, the Supremes say in U.S. v. Brignoni-Ponce, that the 4th amendment protects against:

stopping or detaining persons for questioning about their citizenship on less than a reasonable suspicion that they may be aliens.

By implication, reasonable suspicion is just fine by them. See also:

[Link: otd.oyez.org...]

where the same is upheld.

303 captdiggs  Wed, May 26, 2010 4:37:51pm

Sorry, not everyone who objects to a mosque at that site is some "anti-muslim" bigot.
It's inappropriate pure and simple. It causes more pain for the families of the victims.

From an American muslim:

Mosque unbecoming
Not at Ground Zero
By M. ZUHDI JASSER
... I am an American Muslim dedicated to defeating the ideology that fuels global Islamist terror -- political Islam. And I don't see such a "center" actually fighting terrorism or being a very "positive" addition near Ground Zero, no matter how well intentioned.

To put it bluntly, Ground Zero is the one place in America where Muslims should think less about teaching Islam and "our good side" and more about being American and fulfilling our responsibilities to confront the ideology of our enemies.

Khan and Rauf avoid discourse on reform and political Islam. Instead, they simply give us the familiar, too vague condemnation of "extremism and violence." They seem to conveniently view 9/11, al Qaeda and every manifestation of militant Islamism as simply a public-relations problem for "Muslims in the West." Imam Rauf has even gone so far as to bizarrely say that the 9/11 terrorists were "not Muslims." ...
[Link: www.nypost.com...]

304 lostlakehiker  Wed, May 26, 2010 4:45:02pm

re: #253 GatorAtLaw

Alright, explain to me how Sharia could get past the rock that is the first amendment, the fifth amendment, the sixth amendment, and the eighth amendment.

Go on, explain away.

The same way it has already got past the Magna Carta. By being allowed in a side door, as an alternative dispute resolution mechanism when both parties agree to it.

Such agreements can easily be coerced.

305 jordash1212  Wed, May 26, 2010 4:49:04pm

I'm more scared of the "mega" churches that house the intolerant anti-abortion Christians.

306 Nimed  Wed, May 26, 2010 4:49:15pm

re: #303 captdiggs

Sorry, not everyone who objects to a mosque at that site is some "anti-muslim" bigot.
It's inappropriate pure and simple. It causes more pain for the families of the victims.

From an American muslim:

Mosque unbecoming
Not at Ground Zero
By M. ZUHDI JASSER
... I am an American Muslim dedicated to defeating the ideology that fuels global Islamist terror -- political Islam. And I don't see such a "center" actually fighting terrorism or being a very "positive" addition near Ground Zero, no matter how well intentioned.

To put it bluntly, Ground Zero is the one place in America where Muslims should think less about teaching Islam and "our good side" and more about being American and fulfilling our responsibilities to confront the ideology of our enemies.

Khan and Rauf avoid discourse on reform and political Islam. Instead, they simply give us the familiar, too vague condemnation of "extremism and violence." They seem to conveniently view 9/11, al Qaeda and every manifestation of militant Islamism as simply a public-relations problem for "Muslims in the West." Imam Rauf has even gone so far as to bizarrely say that the 9/11 terrorists were "not Muslims." ...
[Link: www.nypost.com...]

Sigh. We've been here before, yesterday and upthread. The NY Post managed to find one of the three Muslims in our country that thinks that way to write an op-ed -- the Muslim and non-Muslim new yorkers are fine with the mosque.

And in the future, you might want to be careful in guessing how the families of the 9/11 victims feel about this or any other subject.

307 jordash1212  Wed, May 26, 2010 4:58:27pm

re: #303 captdiggs

We all have many identities. We're not just "American." It is silly to ask someone to be "more" American and "less" Muslim near Ground Zero. People and their cultures cannot be viewed so monolithically.

308 captdiggs  Wed, May 26, 2010 4:59:27pm
Sigh. We've been here before, yesterday and upthread. The NY Post managed to find one of the three Muslims in our country that thinks that way

And you know that there are only two more...how?
That one happens to be a former US Naval Officer

And in the future, you might want to be careful in guessing how the families of the 9/11 victims feel about this or any other subject.

I know a number.
I attended a total of 5 funerals for victims in the months after 9/11. I am a god parent of two, now in high school, whose father was killed in WTC 2.
Every one of these families is outraged.

They all know that the people who will have the largest smiles the day it opens will be those who planned the attack, and those who supported it.

309 Effy  Wed, May 26, 2010 5:36:30pm

Honestly, If the Muslim leadership in this country had come out strongly against "radical" and jihadist Islam, or if they showed effort in rooting out those who preach violence in their mosques, I'd be cool with a mosque anywhere. But their record has been pretty poor. As places that teach Islam, the main source of world terrorism, Islamic mosques do deserve a little more suspicion than a Mennonite house of worship. That's reality. I believe in freedom of religion, but we don't have to be stupid about it.

310 Nimed  Wed, May 26, 2010 5:52:34pm

re: #308 captdiggs

I know a number.
I attended a total of 5 funerals for victims in the months after 9/11. I am a god parent of two, now in high school, whose father was killed in WTC 2.
Every one of these families is outraged.

Look, I've been living in New York for about 15 years, and one side of my family has lived in this city for three generations. I won't make a list of (fortunately, not close) relatives, friends, co-workers and acquaintances who lost somebody in the WTC. What I can tell you is the general attitude towards the mosque from these people. And it's a non-issue for them. As usual in this sort of outrageous outrage, New Yorkers care less about the Islamic Cultural Center than the people who normally see New York as a 21st century Gomorrah.

They all know that the people who will have the largest smiles the day it opens will be those who planned the attack, and those who supported it.

Except that they don't "know" it. The giggling Muslim extremists are a product of their imagination. And, even assuming they exist, we simply shouldn't care about their opinion.

311 Nimed  Wed, May 26, 2010 5:55:28pm

re: #308 captdiggs

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

For some this has become a useful chance to voice popular fears about Islam.
Charles Wolf Charles Wolf says it would be wrong to prevent the building of a mosque

One group that says its aim is to defend freedom of speech against what it calls "Islamic supremacist intimidation" is arranging a rally at Ground Zero in protest at the plans.

Many wholeheartedly reject such a stance. Among them is Charles Wolf, an energetic man who has been heavily involved in the discussions over what should be built at Ground Zero in place of the Twin Towers.

He says many of the victims' families - like him - believe the Islamic centre should be built.

"The Muslims are not responsible for 9/11. There have been extremists in all religions," he says.

"Denying them the ability to build a mosque… would be like London denying the Roman Catholic Church the opportunity to build a church during the years of the IRA bombings."

312 captdiggs  Wed, May 26, 2010 6:04:25pm

re: #310 Nimed

Believe what you will, but for 1400 years Islam has built mosques next to or on top of churches and synagogues in newly conquered territory.
Ever wonder why the name is "Cordoba House"?

Cordoba was the center of the Islamic conquest of the Andalusian peninsula. It was actually known as the Caliphate of Cordoba. In the 11th century there was a muslim pogrom against Jews in Cordoba...thousands were killed effectively cleansing Cordoba of all Jews.

313 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 26, 2010 6:22:54pm

re: #312 captdiggs

700 years is a long time to hold a grudge.

Are you really afraid that this community center project, with its swimming pool and restaurants, is going to overwhelm American culture?

I'm not.

314 jordash1212  Wed, May 26, 2010 6:53:33pm

re: #309 Effy

If you want the moderates to come out against the radicals, then foster an environment for that kind of mentality. We cannot continue to alienate the people we wish will help us fight against violent Islamists. Denying the rights to build a mosque because it's too close to Ground Zero shows that we as Americans are not reconciliatory.

315 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, May 26, 2010 7:01:48pm

re: #305 jordash1212

I'm more scared of the "mega" churches that house the intolerant anti-abortion Christians.

They are indeed the 'enemy within.'

316 Effy  Wed, May 26, 2010 7:08:38pm

re: #314 jordash1212

I hear you. Though I did not say they can't build their mosque, just that it is not bigotry to be more suspicious of mosques due to their poor track record. Also, naming this particular mosque "cordoba," when
one of Al-Qaida's main goals announced after the 9/11 attack was the restoration of the Cordoba Caliphate in Al-Andalus seems insensitive. Risk of alienation goes both ways. I'm proud of America's tolerance and freedom of religion. But religion need to be tolerant of America's freedom in return for the system to work.

317 captdiggs  Wed, May 26, 2010 7:46:51pm

re: #313 Charles

Are you really afraid that this community center project, with its swimming pool and restaurants, is going to overwhelm American culture?

I never said that.
And it's not just a "community center" and you know it.
I do believe that the site is inappropriate, that it does cause more pain for the families of the 9/11 victims, and that there is more to this on a political Islam level than some here will admit to.

A quote from the Imam of this mosque:

"The U.S. and the West must acknowledge the harm they have done to Muslims before terrorism can end."
[Link: www.smh.com.au...]

318 lostlakehiker  Wed, May 26, 2010 8:15:06pm

re: #300 wrenchwench

The legal guy who didn't get the job, if he exists, is hurt by not getting the job, I can agree with that. But your generalizations about working conditions are a joke. I certainly would not assert that "their universal fate, upon getting here and getting a job, was to be put upon so severely they wish they'd never come", but I believe you are underplaying the possibility that a significant number of illegal employees are abused, whether by poor working conditions, or theft of wages and/or deductions. I don't understand why you do that.

You read into my post things I did not say, and did not remotely mean to say by implication.

Employers who abuse illegal alien employees in any way, whether by theft of wages, deductions, or with working conditions that are forbidden by law, are rats. My term, from an earlier post. They are criminals. I detest such behavior, and I realize it must occur, because the conditions of employment make it possible to act that way and stand some chance of getting away with it.

But the employer, by the mere act of hiring an illegal alien, has not done any injury to the man. (Or woman, as case may be.) He has eroded respect for the rule of law. He has contributed to a wider social problem. He has undermined the chances of legal workers to get the work that his workers do instead. He has hurt various third parties.

The worker himself has not been hurt. That worker is better off with his low-paying job in America than he is in America but not hired, and he's better off than he is in his home country. That's why he came. He knows that there are employers who will pay the agreed wage, even if it's not that great, and who won't send them in harm's way beyond the normal hazards of work. Even legal employment has its dangers, as employees of BP, any fire department, any police department, any coal mine, and many others can vouch.

I think we should clamp down on hiring illegal aliens. But the main reason is not for the protection of those immigrants. The main reason is that by doing so we will stem the flow of illegal aliens into the U.S. This should reduce the crime associated with smugglers and drug gangs, who do better when they have a sea to swim in so to speak. It should also improve the chances of legal workers.

If your estimate of the rate at which illegals are abused is correct, then that would be yet another reason to clamp down: they are not benefiting much from the arrangement anyhow. I didn't make an estimate of that rate, because my case doesn't stand or fall on what that rate is, and because I don't know what it is. I know it's not universal, for if it were, nobody would come. I know it's something, because the dark side of human nature will surely show its face where opportunities abound.

319 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 26, 2010 9:55:28pm

re: #317 captdiggs

And it's not just a "community center" and you know it.

I do? I "know it?"

Paranoia strikes deep.

"The U.S. and the West must acknowledge the harm they have done to Muslims before terrorism can end."
[Link: www.smh.com.au...]

That proves it. It's a sekrit jihad stronghold, right in Manhattan, masquerading as a place with a swimming pool.

320 Three Chord Monty  Thu, May 27, 2010 1:19:32am

I live around the corner from Ground Zero. Unable to attend the community meeting the other night, but I have no great desire for circuses. I loathe the idea that Geller, et al, will be coming for a rally, but it looks like that's going to happen.

A few things I don't see mentioned in this thread that I may have wrong, but are important to the issue as I understand it. For one thing, the existing building is to be torn down with a new building going up in its place to accommodate the mosque and cultural center. That is problematic in itself because the building has long been a candidate for landmarking, but the LPC has spent 20 years not dealing with it. They could at any time; I have seen speculation they will not.

If the owners clear that hurdle, then there is the matter of financing. I have seen reports that raise questions about their funding sources, though in venues I'm not sure I trust completely due to bias.

If the project is to move forward, then, to the question of how far away would be sufficient to those of us who think, for reasons that are not anti-Muslim, that this is not the greatest location for this project? I would suggest, at the least, north of Chambers St., with Canal St. perhaps representing a border that a lot of people might just be a little more accepting of.

Why?

Well, I can't speak for others, including victims' families, and I have only lived down here for five years, but, like most folks in the region, I did know people who died on 9/11 & am close with one family in particular. I have no use for the Gellers, the Spencers, the reactionaries, those who are using this for political ends. Does that mean this is really a suitable place for this project? I don't think it is. Is it the end of the world? No. But while the letter of the law allows, most likely, for this to move forward, there is a lack of wisdom, common sense, and insight on the part of anyone who thinks a better location could not be found. Especially in a town with hundreds upon hundreds of stalled real estate developments.

No, this particular block of Park Place is not right on Ground Zero, it's a couple of blocks away. There is an existing mosque around the corner, on Warren St., there for 30 years or so, I think. This area is south of Tribeca, bounded by the office towers of the Financial District and City Hall & other local government buildings to the east, and the World Financial Center to the west. It's a section of mostly low-rise buildings that, like the neighborhood to the south, on the other side of Ground Zero, is in many ways an open, festering wound. I respectfully suggest that, all things being equal, it is a questionable location for this project.

I have tried to suspend and/or ignore any weirdness I have felt walking past Islamic Cultural Centers in this city, both before and after 9/11. Like the one on Allen & Stanton, for instance. But I must say that in most cases I can't recall walking past more bald-faced, unspoken hostility, even if only in facial expressions. I always have, and continue to, do my best to put that aside, as I think it grossly unfair to render judgments based on small samples. But with consistency and time one reaches a point where one wonders what one may have done to be on the receiving end of so many angry facial expressions, not that I am unique in this. Of course, I have no doubt this is exactly what the owners of this building are trying to work against.

I do believe they would be well-served to undertake that effort just a little further away. I would hope they would see the disadvantage in placing their facility in a location that teems with activity, between the tourists and local workers. Forget the protesters who don't work or live here, those of us that do, do have the right to be just a bit weirded out by this. And we have a community board whose head can't seem to figure out if she wants KSM tried down here or not (her flip-flops in the HuffPo are astonishing).

This could be handled better. And right now this area could do without the controversy.

321 mph  Thu, May 27, 2010 7:56:18am

re: #2 _RememberTonyC

the locals in New York have spoken, good for them.

do the locals in other places deserve the same consideration?

I live in the neighborhood (two blocks below wtc) and the community board certainly doesn't speak for me.

Just because Spencer/Gellar and their ilk are against it (they are against everything islam), doesn't make it wrong to oppose this mosque.

322 iceweasel  Thu, May 27, 2010 9:03:10am

re: #317 captdiggs

Here's some more quotes from the head of the project-- a guest oped in the New York Daily News:
The truth about the 'mosque': The leader of proposed Muslim center near Ground Zero defends his plan

After our proposal to build a community and cultural center two blocks from the World Trade Center site, I was pleased and gratified by the outpouring of support from city officials and a wide range of people who understand our mission.

My colleagues and I are the anti-terrorists. We are the people who want to embolden the vast majority of Muslims who hate terrorism to stand up to the radical rhetoric. Our purpose is to interweave America's Muslim population into the mainstream society.

People who are stakeholders in society, who believe they are welcomed as equal partners, do not want to destroy it. They want to build it. And there's no better demonstration of our desire to build than the construction of this center. It will help revive lower Manhattan.

The project has been mischaracterized, so I want to explain clearly what it would be. Our planned 13-story community center is intended for Park Place between Church St. and West Broadway. It is not a mosque, although it will include a space for Muslim prayer services. It will have a swimming pool, basketball court, meeting rooms, a 500-seat auditorium, banquet facilities and many other things a community needs to be healthy. The center will offer theatrical programming, art exhibitions and cooking classes. These are amenities missing now from this part of the city.

And, yes, the center will have a public memorial to the victims of 9/11 as well as a meditation room where all will be welcome for quiet reflection. The center will support soul and body.

The center will be open to all regardless of religion. Like a YMCA, the 92nd St. Y or the Jewish Community Center uptown, it will admit everyone. It will be a center for all New Yorkers.

ZOMG! CaLiPhAtE!11!

More at the link. People need to up their lithium intake if they think this is a problem.

323 Three Chord Monty  Thu, May 27, 2010 11:32:48am

Lithium? Nice.

I don't see the 'problem' with the position that the proposed location is inappropriate at best.

Would moving north of Canal or, at least, Chambers, be all that much of a problem? It would certainly have not generated quite as much controversy.

If your primary interest is to pigeonhole any and all who think this location is poorly chosen in a category with Geller and Spencer, that's your problem. Some of us who actually live here merely believe that if the stated goals of the imam are genuine--and I am willing to offer, at the very least, the benefit of the doubt--that they could have put just an iota of thought into whether or not the proposed location would generate unnecessary controversy.

The families of the victims would probably have a problem with this no matter where it was, but I'm not sure that means that they require lithium, either. The Gellers and Spencers, however, would look far more foolish bringing their unwanted input had a less controversial and sensitive location been proposed.

324 Rishonah  Thu, May 27, 2010 4:28:55pm

I do not believe that all Muslims should be held responsible for terrorism, including 9/11, unless they support it, or are complicit in it. We don't have religious tests in this nation (see the Constitution), and Americans are entitled to worship, or not, entirely as they please (with very few exceptions), without reference to, or permission from, anyone else. This includes Muslims.

If this imam is telling the truth, then this center could be a good thing. I have read, however, that he is telling Americans one thing, but Muslims elsewhere something else about the funding, and that he expects to get money from Arab countries. This money always comes with strings. If all of the money comes from Americans and there are no strings, that is one thing. If this place becomes another outpost of Wahabi Islam, then that is entirely another.

Will Jews be welcome in this center? Or will we be nominally welcome, as in they won't push us out at gunpoint, but made to feel unwelcome and be intentionally offended by either the other guests or the management? I have to say that, based on how things usually go, I am very suspicious, but I wish I didn't have to be.

The onus is entirely on the organizers of this project to prove themselves to be good neighbors and good Americans. On balance I think they should be given the chance to try, but only if they get no more than nominal amounts of funding from overseas, and none from groups allied to terrorists.


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