Scott Roeder: Not a Lone Wolf

Wingnuts • Views: 6,992

Amanda Robb at Ms Magazine points out a simple fact about anti-abortion murderer Scott Roeder: he did not act alone. He had an extensive support network of Christian anti-abortion extremists, many of whom are quite open about their belief that murdering abortion doctors is “justifiable homicide.” Roeder wasn’t the first killer in this amorphous movement of religious fanatics, and he probably won’t be the last: Not A Lone Wolf.

Scott Roeder’s web of connections. Click to embiggen.While under financial stress in 1992, Roeder happened upon right-wing televangelist Pat Robertson’s 700 Club on television. He claims he fell to his knees and became a born-again Christian. According to his own recollections and those of his ex-wife, he immediately fixated on what he considered two earthly evils: taxes and abortion.

In very short order, he affiliated himself with Christian anti-government groups such as the Freemen militia and eventually became involved with antiabortion groups such as Operation Rescue and the Army of God, the latter of which openly sanctions the use of violence to stop abortion.

Roeder told me that his first act as an anti-abortion activist was to protest outside a Kansas City women’s clinic. Among the protestors he came to know were Anthony Leake, a proponent of the “justifiable homicide”of abortion doctors, and Eugene Frye, the owner of a Kansas City construction company who, together with another antiabortion activist, had been arrested in 1990 for attempting to reinsert the feeding tube of a Missouri woman in a persistent vegetative state. Frye had also been arrested for blockading abortion clinics during the 1991 Summer of Mercy in Wichita, which was organized by Operation Rescue.

Through Frye, Roeder says, he soon met Rachelle “Shelley” Shannon. She, like Frye, had attended the Summer of Mercy protests; over the next two years she would commit eight arson or acid attacks on abortion clinics in the Pacific Northwest. Then, most horrifically, on August 19, 1993, she would try to murder Dr. George Tiller, succeeding only in shooting and wounding him in both his arms.

Roeder says Frye took him to visit Shannon where she was incarcerated in Topeka. Roeder was instantly smitten with the intense, unrepentant shooter. Frye had made a match. Roeder began visiting Shannon without Frye: Over the years, while she served her 30-year-long sentence for the clinic attacks and the attemptedmurder, Roeder would see her some 25 times. As his marriage began disintegrating, he even considered asking the raven-haired Shannon about beginning a romance. But, he told me, he did not because of the obvious obstacles involved in dating an incarcerated woman.

Still, Roeder and Shannon stayed close—and he began contemplating killing Dr. Tiller himself. Maybe it would be a car crash; maybe he’d shoot him sniper-style from a rooftop near Tiller’s clinic. Or maybe he would just cut off Dr. Tiller’s hands with a sword. Roeder testified to all of these at his trial.

While protesting at a Kansas City abortion clinic, Roeder also met Regina Dinwiddie, who had been arrested along with Frye during Operation Rescue’s 1991 Summer of Mercy in Wichita. A nurse from Kansas City, she was the first person to face a civil restraining order under the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances (FACE) Act because, according to the complaint, she would not stop screaming threats at abortion clinic patients and personnel. The clinic director said Dinwiddie once told her, “Patty, you have not seen violence yet until you see what we do to you!” Dinwiddie, an admitted member of the violencepromoting Army of God, was also arrested at Operation Rescue’s 1988 Siege of Atlanta. Authorities housed the anti-abortion activists in a separate unit—which became a terrorist seedbed. Also arrested and incarcerated along with Dinwiddie were Shannon, Jayne Bray and James Kopp. Bray is the wife of Michael Bray, the so-called lifetime chaplain of the Army of God, who was, at that time, incarcerated elsewhere for a series of clinic bomb attacks.

Read the whole thing.

It should also be noted that even among right wingers who don’t belong to any of these extremist groups, and who don’t openly advocate murder, there was an appalling amount of cheering when Scott Roeder shot Dr. George Tiller in the head at a church.

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198 comments
1 jamesfirecat  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:05:24am

“he immediately fixated on what he considered two earthly evils: taxes and abortion.”

GAH!

[Link: www.biblegateway.com…]

Whose face is it on the American Dollar bill I ask you?

2 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:06:07am

In general, Christians who are pro-life actually help and support these killers. It’s like having a whole silent majority behind you.

3 Fozzie Bear  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:06:33am

These things will happen when a person is demonized repeatedly on a major news network for years.

“Tiller, Tiller, the baby killer.”

Of course, O’Reilly was shocked, just shocked, when someone went and killed the guy. Gee, wonder where they got the idea?

4 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:09:02am
While under financial stress in 1992, Roeder happened upon right-wing televangelist Pat Robertson’s 700 Club on television.

That’s the problem, right there.
/half sarc

5 Locker  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:12:37am

Personal rationalization can be a very, very scary thing. These people are so…. convinced that they are right and that they have some sort of personal channel to God. This guy and others like him are no different than the Crossbow Cannibal guy they just caught in England who claims that God told him to kill hookers.

6 Virginia Plain  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:12:50am

Similar to Islamic extremism. There is always a silent network.

7 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:13:35am

re: #5 Locker

Personal rationalization can be a very, very scary thing. These people are so… convinced that they are right and that they have some sort of personal channel to God. This guy and others like him are no different than the Crossbow Cannibal guy they just caught in England who claims that God told him to kill hookers.

Not really… killing fornicators IS in the scriptures.

8 Aceofwhat?  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:14:05am

re: #7 Walter L. Newton

Not really… killing fornicators IS in the scriptures.

which scriptures?

9 jamesfirecat  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:14:28am

re: #7 Walter L. Newton

Not really… killing fornicators IS in the scriptures.

And so is killing murderers I’d be willing to bet, these people see abortion as murder so there you go….

10 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:14:38am

Beekiller linked this story in Pages a few hours ago.

Charles - the pages feature, and the “featured pages”, are just great!

11 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:15:00am

re: #6 Virginia Plain

Similar to Islamic extremism. There is always a silent network.

Even worst… because they have freedom of religion laws to protect them here… they wouldn’t get away with this in Saudi Arabia.

12 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:15:41am

re: #8 Aceofwhat?

which scriptures?

[Link: quranbible.wordpress.com…]

13 Virginia Plain  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:16:18am

re: #7 Walter L. Newton

Not really… killing fornicators IS in the scriptures.

It mentions nothing about abortion in particular. And yet the Catholic church and several Protestant churches forbid abortion and crackpots kill doctors who perform abortions. Show me a passage which prohibits aborting a fetus.

14 jamesfirecat  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:17:24am

re: #13 Virginia Plain

It mentions nothing about abortion in particular. And yet the Catholic church and several Protestant churches forbid abortion and crackpots kill doctors who perform abortions. Show me a passage which prohibits aborting a fetus.

//Damn it there you go bringing in your logic again, this is about the ‘turthiness’ of the mater! It doesn’t say abortion is murder in the Bible but it feels like it does!

15 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:17:44am

re: #13 Virginia Plain

It mentions nothing about abortion in particular. And yet the Catholic church and several Protestant churches forbid abortion and crackpots kill doctors who perform abortions. Show me a passage which prohibits aborting a fetus.

I will speak slowly… I said “f o r n i c a t o r s.” There are scriptures related to stoning “f o r n i c a t o r s.”

Do I have to spell it out?

16 Aceofwhat?  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:17:48am

re: #12 Walter L. Newton

[Link: quranbible.wordpress.com…]

oh…that’s what i thought. remember the part where Jesus said that those of us without sin should cast the first stone at the prostitute?

it wasn’t ONLY meant to be applied to prostitutes…but yeah. It sorta overrides the other stuff you’re trying to bring up.

want to try again or concede the point?

17 Fozzie Bear  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:17:53am

re: #14 jamesfirecat

But what about the BABIES?!?!

18 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:18:16am

The chart is very good, but it isn’t large enough. There should be another ring of circles showing the various mainstream, or at least popular, figures who played such a huge role in inciting these fanatics. O’reilly has been mentioned but there are also Pat Robertson, the American Family Association, Michelle Bachmann, Rush Limbaugh, and a host of others (and other hosts, for that matter).
It is more than a little inconsistent to accuse someone of murdering babies but demand that no one resort to violence to stop it and pretend holy horror when they do.

19 Locker  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:18:24am

re: #9 jamesfirecat

And so is killing murderers I’d be willing to bet, these people see abortion as murder so there you go…

Right but my comment and the attitudes I see aren’t due to reading something in this or that religious text. It’s the attitude that “I KNOW what God wants. I KNOW what this text means and I KNOW, without a doubt that my actions are a divine mandate”.

Crazy mugga fuggas.

20 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:18:46am

re: #13 Virginia Plain

It mentions nothing about abortion in particular. And yet the Catholic church and several Protestant churches forbid abortion and crackpots kill doctors who perform abortions. Show me a passage which prohibits aborting a fetus.

Where did I say “killing abortionist IS in the scriptures.” ???

21 Aceofwhat?  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:18:55am

re: #13 Virginia Plain

It mentions nothing about abortion in particular. And yet the Catholic church and several Protestant churches forbid abortion and crackpots kill doctors who perform abortions. Show me a passage which prohibits aborting a fetus.

both extreme antiabortion and proabortion positions require some cognitive dissonance.

22 Aceofwhat?  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:19:42am

re: #13 Virginia Plain

It mentions nothing about abortion in particular. And yet the Catholic church and several Protestant churches forbid abortion and crackpots kill doctors who perform abortions. Show me a passage which prohibits aborting a fetus.

Walter was talking about the dude in the UK who thought God wanted him to kill hookers.

23 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:19:43am

re: #15 Walter L. Newton

I will speak slowly… I said “f o r n i c a t o r s.” There are scriptures related to stoning “f o r n i c a t o r s.”

Do I have to spell it out?

Well, if you wanna get anatomical, in order to perform an abortion a doctor has to insert a, well, um, thingy into er, ahm…I can’t really go on at this point, but I am sure that it can be taken as “fornication”


/

24 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:21:04am

re: #16 Aceofwhat?

oh…that’s what i thought. remember the part where Jesus said that those of us without sin should cast the first stone at the prostitute?

it wasn’t ONLY meant to be applied to prostitutes…but yeah. It sorta overrides the other stuff you’re trying to bring up.

want to try again or concede the point?

You asked me where killing fornicators in “which scriptures?” … I gave you the references… You didn’t ask me in what scripture Jesus spoke of killing fornicators.

Want to try again or concede the point?

25 Stanghazi  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:21:15am
Anthony Leake, a proponent of the “justifiable homicide”of abortion doctors, and Eugene Frye, the owner of a Kansas City construction company who, together with another antiabortion activist, had been arrested in 1990 for attempting to reinsert the feeding tube of a Missouri woman in a persistent vegetative state.

Oh my God.

26 Virginia Plain  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:21:20am

re: #15 Walter L. Newton

I will speak slowly… I said “f o r n i c a t o r s.” There are scriptures related to stoning “f o r n i c a t o r s.”

Do I have to spell it out?

No I was just switching gears to the subject of this thread. If there is scripture for killing fornicators (which there is), then where do these fanatics find justification for killing doctors who perform abortions.

27 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:22:09am

re: #23 ralphieboy

Well, if you wanna get anatomical, in order to perform an abortion a doctor has to insert a, well, um, thingy into er, ahm…I can’t really go on at this point, but I am sure that it can be taken as “fornication”

/

And I’m sure you can be taken as an asshole for that comment. Don’t you have any fucking respect for a woman, or you think that making jokes about inserting objects in a woman is your idea of funny.

Jerk.

28 jamesfirecat  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:22:29am

re: #21 Aceofwhat?

both extreme antiabortion and proabortion positions require some cognitive dissonance.

What does extreme proabortion look like exactly?

29 Aceofwhat?  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:23:11am

re: #24 Walter L. Newton

You asked me where killing fornicators in “which scriptures?” … I gave you the references… You didn’t ask me in what scripture Jesus spoke of killing fornicators.

Want to try again or concede the point?

We’re talking about Christians, right? Or did i miss some silent signal where, like, any old religious text can be substituted at the last minute to show that crazy dude #112 got his marching orders directly from literal Christianity?

30 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:23:11am

re: #27 Walter L. Newton

And I’m sure you can be taken as an asshole for that comment. Don’t you have any fucking respect for a woman, or you think that making jokes about inserting objects in a woman is your idea of funny.

Jerk.


You mean fornication is not funny?

31 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:23:30am

re: #18 Shiplord Kirel


It is more than a little inconsistent to accuse someone of murdering babies but demand that no one resort to violence to stop it and pretend holy horror when they do.

I take it you are talking about media figures who stir shit up.

I am anti-abortion, very much so, but do NOT condone the murder of abortion providers or terrorizing those who seek abortions. It is not inconsistent at all, to oppose the taking of life through violent means.

I prolly need to just back out of this thread, somebody’s gonna tell me I must support Roeder, or at least I’m an enabler, and that is just so wrong -

32 Aceofwhat?  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:23:42am

re: #25 Stanley Sea

Oh my God.

yeah, that was my reaction too…

33 Virginia Plain  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:23:45am

Come to think of it, where is the scriptural justification for keeping a person in a vegetative state alive? They claim to follow the bible, but they don’t.

34 Aceofwhat?  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:24:18am

re: #31 reine.de.tout

i won’t let them, don’t worry!

35 Aceofwhat?  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:25:01am

re: #33 Virginia Plain

Come to think of it, where is the scriptural justification for keeping a person in a vegetative state alive? They claim to follow the bible, but they don’t.

there isn’t…it’s just crazy dumb.

36 What, me worry?  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:25:32am

re: #33 Virginia Plain

Come to think of it, where is the scriptural justification for keeping a person in a vegetative state alive? They claim to follow the bible, but they don’t.

It’s a little different in Judaism. There’s debate on whether abortion is a biblical or rabbinical prohibition, but all agree on the concept that fundamentally, abortion is only permitted to protect the life of the mother or in other extraordinary situations. Jewish law does not sanction abortion on demand without a pressing reason.

Murder is, of course, a huge giant no-no.

37 Virginia Plain  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:25:51am

re: #35 Aceofwhat?

there isn’t…it’s just crazy dumb.

I know it is. I would like these crackpots to be asked that question one day.

38 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:25:55am

re: #29 Aceofwhat?

We’re talking about Christians, right? Or did i miss some silent signal where, like, any old religious text can be substituted at the last minute to show that crazy dude #112 got his marching orders directly from literal Christianity?

That’s not what you asked me, is it? And guess what, the same Identity and Covenant groups that tend to the more severe and militant forms of Christianity, such as the kind of Christians that would take it into their own hands to kill an abortion doctor, DO DELVE INTO THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES to prove their right to a militant position.

Please, don’t argue biblical textual topics with me.

39 Vicious Babushka  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:27:02am

re: #28 jamesfirecat

What does extreme proabortion look like exactly?

Annefrance.

40 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:29:17am

re: #29 Aceofwhat?

We’re talking about Christians, right? Or did i miss some silent signal where, like, any old religious text can be substituted at the last minute to show that crazy dude #112 got his marching orders directly from literal Christianity?

Here… look up some Hebrew texts and quotes that are used to justify killing abortion doctors by Christians…


“When you were in the womb, I knew you”. And again, “They are fearfully and wonderfully made”.

[Link: liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com…]

41 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:29:25am

re: #39 Alouette

Annefrance.


As long as there are ugly, militant anti-abortionists, they will breed ugly, militant pro-abortionists.

42 jamesfirecat  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:30:12am

re: #39 Alouette

Annefrance.

Wasn’t around to see her but is that people should be able to tell a mother to get an abortion if they find out before the kid is born that there is something seriously wrong with them?

Because I don’t think we see anywhere near as much or expereince anywhere near as much suffering as a nation from that side of the abortion debate as we do from these people who are uber strongly anti-abortion…

43 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:30:32am

re: #29 Aceofwhat?

We’re talking about Christians, right? Or did i miss some silent signal where, like, any old religious text can be substituted at the last minute to show that crazy dude #112 got his marching orders directly from literal Christianity?

Want more…

[Link: www.examiner.com…]

44 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:30:52am

re: #31 reine.de.tout

I take it you are talking about media figures who stir shit up.

I am anti-abortion, very much so, but do NOT condone the murder of abortion providers or terrorizing those who seek abortions. It is not inconsistent at all, to oppose the taking of life through violent means.

I prolly need to just back out of this thread, somebody’s gonna tell me I must support Roeder, or at least I’m an enabler, and that is just so wrong -

You can oppose abortion without believing that it is the literal equivalent of murder. These kooks advocate that equivalence in direct terms, as though an abortion doctor were fully the equal of some devil who shoots into a playground. Any one of us would take whatever action was necessary to stop the latter. The fanatics extend that principle to abortion itself with their rhetoric, then they are surprised and horrified when someone acts on it.

45 Aceofwhat?  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:31:33am

re: #38 Walter L. Newton

That’s not what you asked me, is it? And guess what, the same Identity and Covenant groups that tend to the more severe and militant forms of Christianity, such as the kind of Christians that would take it into their own hands to kill an abortion doctor, DO DELVE INTO THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES to prove their right to a militant position.

Please, don’t argue biblical textual topics with me.

You’re cheating.
-Someone made a comment about guy supposedly, but falsely hearing from God to kill hookers.
-You said, not really, it’s in the scriptures.
-My reply is that such a thing is clearly not Christian doctrine, that there was absolutely no way to justify killing on the basis of prostitution or fornication in Christian doctrine.
-you have yet to be able to refute my point, as any scripture you pull from the OTestament is contradicted by Jesus’ actual words and is therefore almost as irrelevant as pulling a scripture from the Quran to make your point.

I’ll argue biblical textual topics with whomever i please.

46 darthstar  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:31:36am

Interesting…someone, I think Walter, asked in the overnight open who Phelps has killed, and I posted ‘Dr. Tiller’ in reply…I wasn’t being overly snarky…I just thought that fuckwads like Phelps inspire fuckwads like Roeder to do their bidding for them…I see I’m not alone in that thought.

47 Aceofwhat?  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:32:54am

re: #40 Walter L. Newton

Here… look up some Hebrew texts and quotes that are used to justify killing abortion doctors by Christians…

“When you were in the womb, I knew you”. And again, “They are fearfully and wonderfully made”.

[Link: liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com…]

those are used to justify the belief, reasonably, that “life” does not begin magically at the point of birth. fortunately, science agrees.

justifying the existence of life ≠ justifying murder.

48 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:33:05am

re: #45 Aceofwhat?

You’re cheating.
-Someone made a comment about guy supposedly, but falsely hearing from God to kill hookers.
-You said, not really, it’s in the scriptures.
-My reply is that such a thing is clearly not Christian doctrine, that there was absolutely no way to justify killing on the basis of prostitution or fornication in Christian doctrine.
-you have yet to be able to refute my point, as any scripture you pull from the OTestament is contradicted by Jesus’ actual words and is therefore almost as irrelevant as pulling a scripture from the Quran to make your point.

I’ll argue biblical textual topics with whomever i please.

Bullshit…

[Link: erlc.com…]

49 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:35:17am

re: #45 Aceofwhat?

You’re cheating.
-Someone made a comment about guy supposedly, but falsely hearing from God to kill hookers.
-You said, not really, it’s in the scriptures.
-My reply is that such a thing is clearly not Christian doctrine, that there was absolutely no way to justify killing on the basis of prostitution or fornication in Christian doctrine.
-you have yet to be able to refute my point, as any scripture you pull from the OTestament is contradicted by Jesus’ actual words and is therefore almost as irrelevant as pulling a scripture from the Quran to make your point.

I’ll argue biblical textual topics with whomever i please.

Supersessionist? Huh? Really Read 2 Timothy 3:15 and tell me anything in the Hebrew Scriptures is irrelevant. Seems to me Timothy contradicts Jesus.

50 darthstar  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:35:27am

re: #45 Aceofwhat?

Thou shalt not get into theological debate with Walter.
So sayeth the darthstar.
So sayeth the flock.

51 What, me worry?  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:36:12am

re: #39 Alouette

Annefrance.

I was one of maybe 5 people who dinged her UP. And I would ding her UP again.

52 Aceofwhat?  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:37:14am

re: #43 Walter L. Newton

Want more…

[Link: www.examiner.com…]

Heh. Romans 13 says that the authorities will protect us. If this nut wants to pretend that such a verse is the equivalent to sanctioned murder, don’t blame it on the very clear scripture which says no such thing.

next?

53 Bagua  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:38:01am

re: #50 darthstar

Thou shalt not get into theological debate with Walter.
So sayeth the darthstar.
So sayeth the flock.

I agree, Walter is very knowledgeable on this subject. Most of us are out of our depth trying to debate him on this subject.

54 lawhawk  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:38:36am

Gus 802 -

NY Times is reporting that the top kill has stopped the flow of new oil into the Gulf, but that it’s possible that the flow could resume.

“They’ve been able to push the hydrocarbons and the oil down with the mud,” he said, referring to the heavy drilling fluid. “The real challenge is to put enough mud into the well to keep the pressure where they can put a cement plug over the top.”

Admiral Allen was accompanying President Obama on a tour Friday of the area. In Port Fourchon, the president and Admiral Allen were joined by the Lafourche parish president Charlotte Randolph. Mr. Obama walked along a beach dotted with balls of tar and covered with booms that looked like a line of cheerleader pom-poms strung together. Next, the president was heading Grand Isle for a formal briefing from Admiral Allen. The governors of Louisiana, Florida and Alabama are expected to join him there.

As the president surveyed the damage and cleanup effort, the top kill effort continued.

Tony Hayward, BP’s chief executive, said on “Good Morning America” that efforts to plug the well were “going pretty well according to plan.”

“Much of the volume you see coming out of the well in the last 36 hours is mud,” he said, referring to live video shots of the oil leak.

He said that overnight, workers pumped what is known as “junk shot,” a mix of more substantial materials, like golf balls and shredded tires, into the well, and he said they would follow with more mud later Friday. The junk shot serves as a “bridge,” he said, for the mud injections, to strengthen their ability to counteract the leaking oil.

While he was optimistic, Mr. Hayward gave the effort a 60 percent to 70 percent chance of success because it had never been tried in water this deep.

It sounds like they’re looking to see whether they’ve equalized the pressures and that the system will hold before moving to the next phase - injecting the well with concrete that will seal it.

55 Stanghazi  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:38:53am

re: #51 marjoriemoon

I was one of maybe 5 people who dinged her UP. And I would ding her UP again.

I probably would have too, I’m bummed I missed her. She was the first to be anti-Palin right? Oh the horror.

56 lawhawk  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:38:56am

re: #50 darthstar

So it was said. So shall it be done *clap clap*.

57 Political Atheist  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:39:04am

re: #31 reine.de.tout

I take it you are talking about media figures who stir shit up.

I am anti-abortion, very much so, but do NOT condone the murder of abortion providers or terrorizing those who seek abortions. It is not inconsistent at all, to oppose the taking of life through violent means.

I prolly need to just back out of this thread, somebody’s gonna tell me I must support Roeder, or at least I’m an enabler, and that is just so wrong -


There really should be no need Reine. My views once got me dinged here a bit on this, but like you I categorically refute any violence or harassment of women seeking abortions at any time. We have our feelings on the matter with due respect for others opinions.

58 engineer cat  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:39:16am

if i want to quote texts to justify my actions or opinions, i’d rather use the encyclopaedia britannica

59 Stanghazi  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:39:51am

OT, Please go to the links and see the video Beekiller posted of Ozzie at Madame Troussard’s in NYC. hilarious.

60 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:40:14am

re: #50 darthstar

Thou shalt not get into theological debate with Walter.
So sayeth the darthstar.
So sayeth the flock.

Just so you don’t start creaming in your jeans, I get involved in these religious debates more so to throw up a mirror to each side. The extreme hyperbole on both sides of these religious issues are unintelligent and not worthy of honest debate.

And the total lack of understanding the board range of Christian (and non Christian) thought that is ensconced in this country is also disheartening. So may people of all flavors of religion have this holier than thou attitude that their brand is the only brand… where as most of the fucking time their knowledge of the subject stops at the end of the pew they sit in.

As an atheist, I have no dog (or if you are a dyslexic atheist, god) in this fight… but at the same time, I’m not so blinded to think that anyone out there has the only answer.

61 Stanghazi  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:41:06am

re: #59 Stanley Sea

OT, Please go to the links and see the video Beekiller posted of Ozzie at Madame Troussard’s in NYC. hilarious.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

62 What, me worry?  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:41:27am

re: #46 darthstar

Interesting…someone, I think Walter, asked in the overnight open who Phelps has killed, and I posted ‘Dr. Tiller’ in reply…I wasn’t being overly snarky…I just thought that fuckwads like Phelps inspire fuckwads like Roeder to do their bidding for them…I see I’m not alone in that thought.

That was me about 2 hours ago downstairs… I was making a point that outside of anti-abortionists, Christians stopped killing people around the time of the Crusades.

I don’t know about inspire. It’s not against the law for me to say, “I wish Mr. Smith was dead.” It is against the law to kill Mr. Smith.

63 Gus  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:42:01am

re: #54 lawhawk

Gus 802 -

NY Times is reporting that the top kill has stopped the flow of new oil into the Gulf, but that it’s possible that the flow could resume.

It sounds like they’re looking to see whether they’ve equalized the pressures and that the system will hold before moving to the next phase - injecting the well with concrete that will seal it.

OK. I’m still waking up here and I’m not the most optimistic person in the world when I haven’t had my espresso roast.

64 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:43:18am

re: #61 Stanley Sea

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Awesome!!!

65 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:43:34am

re: #52 Aceofwhat?

Heh. Romans 13 says that the authorities will protect us. If this nut wants to pretend that such a verse is the equivalent to sanctioned murder, don’t blame it on the very clear scripture which says no such thing.

next?

You asked for scripture, I gave you Old Testament scripture, you didn’t ask for words of Jesus or what, you asked for scripture. And you know for a fact that most of the radical Christians who take this tack, use tons of Old Testament scriptures to support their position.

So, just because YOU don’t use these Old Testament sources, that doesn’t change jack shit… they do, and they call themselves Christians and anything you say or believe is not going to change the facts of what they are, what they believe and where they get their support from.

66 darthstar  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:43:45am

re: #53 Bagua

I agree, Walter is very knowledgeable on this subject. Most of us are out of our depth trying to debate him on this subject.

It’s not his knowledge, it’s his attitude that makes debating him pointless. He’s as condescending at times as the most annoying evangelical Christian (which, I suspect, he was at one time).

67 What, me worry?  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:44:01am

re: #55 Stanley Sea

I probably would have too, I’m bummed I missed her. She was the first to be anti-Palin right? Oh the horror.

Not the first really, but definitely the more outspoken.

69 Stanghazi  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:44:29am

Gary Coleman just died.

70 Aceofwhat?  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:44:30am

re: #49 Walter L. Newton

Supersessionist? Huh? Really Read 2 Timothy 3:15 and tell me anything in the Hebrew Scriptures is irrelevant. Seems to me Timothy contradicts Jesus.

you’d be wrong. i have to run - but i’m enjoying the discussion. can we pick this up later, or has it become tiresome?

i’ll respect your answer either way.

thanks.

71 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:45:11am

re: #66 darthstar

It’s not his knowledge, it’s his attitude that makes debating him pointless. He’s as condescending at times as the most annoying evangelical Christian (which, I suspect, he was at one time).

I was Satan at one time.

72 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:45:27am

re: #69 Stanley Sea

Gary Coleman just died.

Bummer, but I’m not surprised.

73 Aceofwhat?  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:45:31am

re: #65 Walter L. Newton

You asked for scripture, I gave you Old Testament scripture, you didn’t ask for words of Jesus or what, you asked for scripture. And you know for a fact that most of the radical Christians who take this tack, use tons of Old Testament scriptures to support their position.

So, just because YOU don’t use these Old Testament sources, that doesn’t change jack shit… they do, and they call themselves Christians and anything you say or believe is not going to change the facts of what they are, what they believe and where they get their support from.

ok. i’m comfortable saying that i do not run afoul of “no true scotsman” when i can clearly demonstrate that a person is acting wholly contradictory to Jesus’ teaching. no goalpost moving here.

bbiab, my good atheist!

74 darthstar  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:45:55am

re: #60 Walter L. Newton

Just so you don’t start creaming in your jeans,

Sexual innuendo? Oh, Wally.

75 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:46:44am

re: #66 darthstar

It’s not his knowledge, it’s his attitude that makes debating him pointless. He’s as condescending at times as the most annoying evangelical Christian (which, I suspect, he was at one time).

What ever… when you can can discuss what makes these people tick as well as I can, then I may care about your statement. Was that condescending enough?

76 lawhawk  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:46:50am

OT:
Two separate volcanoes erupting in Central/South America:

Rocks spewing from a volcano overlooking the Guatemalan capital killed a television reporter and crushed roofs in villages near the peak, authorities said Friday. Three children are missing.

Major explosions also shook a towering volcano in the South American nation of Ecuador on Wednesday, forcing evacuations of three villages. There were no immediate reports of deaths.

Guatemala’s Pacaya volcano started erupting lava and rocks on Thursday afternoon, blanketing the Central American country’s capital with ash and forcing the closure of the international airport. President Alvaro Colom declared a “state of calamity.”

“We thought we wouldn’t survive. Our houses crumbled and we’ve lost everything,” said Brenda Castaneda, who said she and her family hid under beds and tables as marble-sized rocks thundered down on her home in the village of Calderas. The family was waiting for rescue teams to take them to a shelter at a nearby school.

Television reporter Anibal Archila was hit by a shower of burning rocks when he got too close to the volcano, about 15 miles (25 kilometers) south of Guatemala City, said David de Leon, a spokesman for the national disaster committee.

77 Bagua  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:47:03am

re: #54 lawhawk

Gus 802 -

NY Times is reporting that the top kill has stopped the flow of new oil into the Gulf, but that it’s possible that the flow could resume.

It sounds like they’re looking to see whether they’ve equalized the pressures and that the system will hold before moving to the next phase - injecting the well with concrete that will seal it.

I’m not so sure. It looks like mission impossible at this point. I think they are getting ready to move on to Plan D, cutting off the riser and are just pumping mud to hold the oil back in the meantime.

78 darthstar  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:47:36am

re: #69 Stanley Sea

Gary Coleman just died.

He had been in a coma after hitting his head in a fall.

79 lawhawk  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:47:50am

re: #69 Stanley Sea

They were reporting he was in bad shape this AM after his condition declined following a fall in his home.

80 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:48:06am

re: #78 darthstar

He had been in a coma after hitting his head in a fall.

He couldn’t have fallen that far?

81 Stanghazi  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:48:33am

re: #80 Walter L. Newton

He couldn’t have fallen that far?

Brutal!

82 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:48:46am

re: #80 Walter L. Newton

Oops… ok Charles, delete that if needed… gallows humor that slip out of the tips of my finger…

83 ShaunP  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:48:58am

re: #80 Walter L. Newton

He couldn’t have fallen that far?

What you talkin’ ‘bout Walter…

(Sorry, had to do it…)

84 engineer cat  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:49:54am

the way that some people who call themselves christians mercilessly torture texts from the bible to “prove” their point, they might as well be quoting the phone book

i’ve had many people explain to me that jesus didn’t say anything that he said

85 Bagua  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:50:02am

re: #66 darthstar

It’s not his knowledge, it’s his attitude that makes debating him pointless. He’s as condescending at times as the most annoying evangelical Christian (which, I suspect, he was at one time).

I think you are misinterpreting his writing style and adding some unnecessary emotional content in your reaction.

86 Stanghazi  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:50:08am

re: #82 Walter L. Newton

Oops… ok Charles, delete that if needed… gallows humor that slip out of the tips of my finger…

Weigel just tweeted, Emmanuel Lewis wins. So you’re cool.

87 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:50:44am

re: #80 Walter L. Newton

He couldn’t have fallen that far?

You are now officially forbidden to bitch about fat jokes.
/heh

88 lawhawk  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:51:08am

Coleman’s wife Shannon pulled life support earlier this morning.

89 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:51:18am

Time for me to head home. Have a great holiday weekend everyone! (or at least those of you who matter ;) And remember the sacrifices of our armed forces.

90 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:51:27am

Remember the Different Strokes episode where the father learned his family owned slaves?

91 lawhawk  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:52:06am

re: #86 Stanley Sea

Went to HS with Emannuel Lewis; it was no joke. I nearly trampled him in the hallway one time coming out of a classroom, but then again, it was impossible to miss his bodyguards (big guys).

92 darthstar  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:52:07am

re: #75 Walter L. Newton

What ever… when you can can discuss what makes these people tick as well as I can, then I may care about your statement. Was that condescending enough?

That wasn’t condescending at all. Please try again. Besides, you’re just throwing out your vast knowledge of bible quotes…that’s not the same as discussing what makes people tick.

93 Stanghazi  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:53:09am

Oh you must watch

94 webevintage  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:53:38am
95 ryannon  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:53:51am

re: #82 Walter L. Newton

Oops… ok Charles, delete that if needed… gallows humor that slip out of the tips of my finger…

First time you’ve ever made me laugh.

96 darthstar  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:55:02am

re: #85 Bagua

I think you are misinterpreting his writing style and adding some unnecessary emotional content in your reaction.

Nah…Walter knows when he’s being an asshole. Ace is a good egg, is honest about his beliefs and doesn’t insult other people’s faith or lack thereof even when he disagrees with them.

97 freetoken  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:55:19am

re: #77 Bagua

My understanding from reading this morning is that the Top Kill per se failed, and now some variant of the junk shot is being tried (as I type), with some hope that the mixture of rubber strips and oil will work. Is that correct?

98 RogueOne  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:56:03am

re: #69 Stanley Sea

Gary Coleman just died.

He should have been wearing Bret Michaels’ lucky bandana.

99 ShaunP  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:56:41am

re: #98 RogueOne

He should have been wearing Bret Michaels’ lucky bandana.

Seriously. They can’t keep that rockstar down…

100 freetoken  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:57:11am

re: #97 freetoken

PIMF “oil and mud”

101 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:57:26am

re: #98 RogueOne

He should have been wearing Bret Michaels’ lucky bandana.

Now THAT’S funny.

102 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:58:09am

re: #96 darthstar

Nah…Walter knows when he’s being an asshole. Ace is a good egg, is honest about his beliefs and doesn’t insult other people’s faith or lack thereof even when he disagrees with them.

You don’t pay very close attention, quoting scripture is one of the tactics I rarely turn to… waste of time, I can prove hundreds of things that way… Ace asked for a reference in this discussion, I oblige.

103 freetoken  Fri, May 28, 2010 11:58:57am

Glenn Beck, setting the bar lower and lower…


Glenn Beck attacks Obama daughter over oil spill worries

104 darthstar  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:00:19pm

re: #97 freetoken

My understanding from reading this morning is that the Top Kill per se failed, and now some variant of the junk shot is being tried (as I type), with some hope that the mixture of rubber strips and oil will work. Is that correct?

Top Kill failed. The Junk Shot may work, but will likely fail as well. 16,000 PSI (estimated, could be much higher) coming up from a lake of oil the size of Louisiana under the pressure of a mile of sea water and another half mile of earth’s crust. The only way to stop it is bottom kill. That’ll take months.

105 darthstar  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:01:12pm

re: #103 freetoken

Glenn Beck, setting the bar lower and lower…

Glenn Beck attacks Obama daughter over oil spill worries

Glenn Beck would lose to Malia in a battle of wits.

106 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:01:18pm

Be back later… a full 8 hour shift at the supermarket… Memorial Day weekend… it’s gonna be a bitch. Wish I was drinking still.

107 webevintage  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:01:20pm

re: #103 freetoken

Glenn Beck, setting the bar lower and lower…

Glenn Beck attacks Obama daughter over oil spill worries

Why am I not surprised?

108 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:02:17pm

re: #106 Walter L. Newton

Be back later… a full 8 hour shift at the supermarket… Memorial Day weekend… it’s gonna be a bitch. Wish I was drinking still.

I’ll pick up the slack.:)

109 darthstar  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:02:30pm

re: #106 Walter L. Newton

Be back later… a full 8 hour shift at the supermarket… Memorial Day weekend… it’s gonna be a bitch. Wish I was drinking still.

Have fun watching people slide 30-packs of shit beer across the self-checkout counter.

110 pingjockey  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:03:42pm

re: #109 darthstar

Life is too short to drink crap beer!

111 darthstar  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:03:53pm

re: #108 Cannadian Club Akbar

I’ll pick up the slack.:)

I’ve got your back, CCA…Can’t let you do all the heavy lifting.

112 darthstar  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:04:22pm

re: #110 pingjockey

Life is too short to drink crap beer!

Blame John McCain and his wife.

113 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:04:38pm

re: #109 darthstar

Have fun watching people slide 30-packs of shit beer across the self-checkout counter.

That’s what I’m not looking forward to… gallons of water, cases of soda and beer… all the large items I need to pick up and scan, or bend over and scan… graduation cards, flowers and other garden crap… it’s going to be a mess of odd shaped items and it’s all going to slow down my production counts.

114 freetoken  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:05:48pm

re: #104 darthstar

…coming up from a lake of oil the size of Louisiana under the pressure of a mile of sea water and another half mile of earth’s crust.

The reservoir rock extent is nowhere that large. Indeed, the reservoir is difficult to find, which is why the companies do so much 3D seismic work. The source rock (of the oil/gas) extent would be much larger in size of course, but the hydrocarbons there of course are dispersed.

115 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:05:53pm

re: #110 pingjockey

Life is too short to drink crap beer!

You know who drank crap beer? Hitler.
-Glenn Beck
/

116 pingjockey  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:05:54pm

re: #112 darthstar
Why? Does his wife own a brewery? With all the damn micro and not so micro brews out there, be damned if I’m going to drink Bud, Miller, etc..

117 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:05:58pm

re: #103 freetoken

“Daddy, why do you hate black people so much?” Beck as Malia asks at one point.

“I’m part white, honey,” Gray responds as Obama.

What a lousy POS. Buck Feck.

118 pingjockey  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:07:54pm

re: #115 Cannadian Club Akbar
Heh. I don’t know, mass produced German beer has got to be better than mass produced American beer!

119 Fozzie Bear  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:07:58pm

Nothing Beck says could possibly surprise me anymore. The guy is lower than snake shit.

120 RadicalModerate  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:08:01pm

Dang. Beat me to it.

re: #103 freetoken

Glenn Beck, setting the bar lower and lower…

Glenn Beck attacks Obama daughter over oil spill worries

Apparently, Glenn has a very short (or selective) memory. This tirade comes only two days after Beck made an on-air request to leave Obama’s family alone.

121 freetoken  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:08:44pm

Is BP Hiding Dead Wildlife From Media Coverage?

It will be sordidly interesting to watch as the aftermath develops into full blown investigations whether, and which, companies and individuals are hiding the truth.

122 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:08:45pm

Gotta work. See ya’ll tonight.

123 Bagua  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:09:05pm

re: #97 freetoken

My understanding from reading this morning is that the Top Kill per se failed, and now some variant of the junk shot is being tried (as I type), with some hope that the mixture of rubber strips and oil will work. Is that correct?

The junk shot is the plan B of the mud top kill procedure. Shoot in the debris in the hopes of clogging some of the leak(s) inside the BOP. This would allow more pressure to push mud down hole. This can’t happen with the leaks bleeding at the top. They wanted to try this second as it could bung up the feeder lines and limit their options later.

The first attempt established that the BOP & well could handle 65 bbl of mud per minute without rupturing, and that mud could go down the well, but not far enough to balance it.

Assuming the casing can hold about 1,400 bbls and they have gone through more than 30,000 bbls, we get an idea of the effect of the leaks through the BOP.

I expect that what they have determined is that this is in fact a backside blowout at the casing at 5,000 feet. They can get mud down to that level, but not past because that’s where they are hitting the formation pressure. There is not enough of a column of mud at that level to stop the flow, even if they had heavier mud.

Thus the mud shot is futile as Austin_Blue was saying all along. Time to move on to the next top kill attempt, which will involve cutting the riser off above the BOP and sticking the new top hat on.

124 freetoken  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:09:48pm

re: #120 RadicalModerate

Glenn Beck is blessed with the most important thing for hate radio - no conscience.

125 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:09:51pm

re: #119 Fozzie Bear

Nothing Beck says could possibly surprise me anymore. The guy is lower than snake shit.

I dunno. I imagine you could fertilize plants with snake shit.

126 Gus  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:10:13pm
127 Spare O'Lake  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:11:21pm

Bottom Line: Vigilantism can NEVER be justified in a society which purports to be based on the Rule of Law.

128 What, me worry?  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:11:22pm

re: #69 Stanley Sea

Gary Coleman just died.

Was he still married to that woman?

129 Interesting Times  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:12:55pm

re: #125 Slumbering Behemoth

I dunno. I imagine you could fertilize plants with snake shit.

:) Reminds me of this comment as to why Beck shouldn’t be called an asshole:

A functioning asshole is a blessing.

A functioning Beck is a fucking curse.

Shit from an asshole can actually be used to help things grow.

Shit from Beck is more toxic than nuclear waste.

130 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:13:28pm

re: #127 Spare O’Lake

Bottom Line: Vigilantism can NEVER be justified in a society which purports to be based on the Rule of Law.

Bruce Wayne must pay for his crimes!
/

131 Stanghazi  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:13:43pm

re: #128 marjoriemoon

Was he still married to that woman?

Yep. She was there.

132 pingjockey  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:15:49pm

re: #123 Bagua
You seem to be very well informed. Would manned submersibles, such as Alvin, work better than the ROVs that are being used?

133 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:17:51pm

Oh no, Gary Coleman is dead.

Wait, what…who was he?

134 Spare O'Lake  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:18:20pm

re: #130 Slumbering Behemoth

Bruce Wayne must pay for his crimes!
/

Blame the KKK!

135 Fozzie Bear  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:19:04pm

It may just be that it really isn’t possible given the technology we have currently to stop a leak in that place, under that kind of pressure, once it has started, short of completing the second hole to relieve pressure.

They are giving it the old college try, so to speak, but I wouldn’t be so convinced that this is anything other than a ‘hail mary’, tried because, well, they have to try.

I know I’m not exactly the embodied voice of hope and optimism on this, but I think people may have rather unreasonable expectations.

136 What, me worry?  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:19:05pm

re: #133 Cato the Elder

Oh no, Gary Coleman is dead.

Wait, what…who was he?

Whatchu talkin about, Cato?

137 pingjockey  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:19:56pm

re: #133 Cato the Elder
You’re a stinker. /

139 pingjockey  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:22:56pm

re: #138 Slumbering Behemoth
Jesus! I thought it was a serious article for a second.
They way some of the asshats on my side of the aisle(kind of) have been acting, I wouldn’t put anything past them!

140 freetoken  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:23:11pm

The following looks like it would be of relevance to many topics here at LGF:

When science clashes with beliefs? Make science impotent

It’s hardly a secret that large segments of the population choose not to accept scientific data because it conflicts with their predefined beliefs: economic, political, religious, or otherwise. But many studies have indicated that these same people aren’t happy with viewing themselves as anti-science, which can create a state of cognitive dissonance. That has left psychologists pondering the methods that these people use to rationalize the conflict.

A study published in the Journal of Applied Social Psychology takes a look at one of these methods, which the authors term “scientific impotence”—the decision that science can’t actually address the issue at hand properly. It finds evidence that not only supports the scientific impotence model, but suggests that it could be contagious. Once a subject has decided that a given topic is off limits to science, they tend to start applying the same logic to other issues.

This addresses quite a bit that I see when looking at creationists.

141 Bagua  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:24:04pm

re: #132 pingjockey

You seem to be very well informed. Would manned submersibles, such as Alvin, work better than the ROVs that are being used?

There is an amazing array of state of the art ROVs on site now. The area is crowded with umbilical cords, buoyancy modules, equipment, twisted riser, etc., Alvin would likely get in the way and not add much.

142 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:24:38pm

re: #137 pingjockey

You’re a stinker. /

Yes, and I care more about my neighbors than some third-string celeb who hasn’t done anything in three decades.

143 Locker  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:25:14pm

OT: I was fairly surprised to find out that President Obama is a West Ham fan. Even more remarkable (from the article) is that Hillary Clinton is a Manchester United fan.

I will wait for the obligatory mud slinging calling me a terrorist because I like Arsenal and so does Osama Bin Laden:

Mr Obama is not the first world figure to nail their colours to the mast by revealing where his football loyalties lie.

First there was Osama bin Laden’s association with Arsenal, which led to the north Londoners reportedly banning the terrorist from attending any future games.

Bin Laden was apparently on the terraces as Arsenal side reached the final of the European Cup Winners Cup in 1994 season. The man behind the Sept 11 attack was rumoured to be so smitten with the Gunners that he bought a replica kit for his eldest son.

144 Locker  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:26:16pm

re: #142 Cato the Elder

Yes, and I care more about my neighbors than some third-string celeb who hasn’t done anything in three decades.

Fuck that he is all over the TV here doing payday loan commercials. You apologize right now or I’m telling Mr Drummand.

145 darthstar  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:26:25pm

BP had suspended top kill for 16 hours, but failed to tell anybody…this while government representatives were telling the American people that top kill was continuing.

146 Renaissance_Man  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:26:38pm

re: #139 pingjockey

Jesus! I thought it was a serious article for a second.
They way some of the asshats on my side of the aisle(kind of) have been acting, I wouldn’t put anything past them!

It is a serious article. Well, not serious serious, because it passed and though some Republicans argued against it, it seems a bit of a nontroversy. But it’s still true. Those ‘man on the street’ bits from the Onion are always based on true events.

147 Locker  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:26:52pm

re: #143 Locker

Including the article link is probably prudent:

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk…]

148 pingjockey  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:26:57pm

re: #141 Bagua
Thanks. I thought maybe a ‘hands on’ approach might be better than a ROV. I do know ROV tech is just amazing now. Haven’t got to talk to my neighbor yet, he’s a former ‘mud’ man for a drilling company and has been in Houston for a school. He’s now graduated to geologist and I wanted to ask him what he knew about this blowout. He works on the North Slope.

149 Racer X  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:27:16pm

Whatchutalkinboutwillis?

RIP Gary.

150 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:27:19pm

re: #139 pingjockey

Sadly, my friend, it is a piece of humor which has a basis in reality. *sigh*

151 pingjockey  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:27:39pm

re: #142 Cato the Elder
Gotcha! That’s why I threw the tag in! How’re you doing on this Friday?

152 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:28:51pm

re: #151 pingjockey

Gotcha! That’s why I threw the tag in! How’re you doing on this Friday?

I’m good. The rains last night cooled off the horribobble global warming of the previous two days.

153 pingjockey  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:29:07pm

re: #146 Renaissance_Man
What?! Now I’ve got to go look at you and Behemouths links. Goddamn idiots they are. Not you, those idjits in your links.

154 freetoken  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:29:49pm

BTW, in the comments at that ARS Technica story on science disbelief the usual types come out (creationists, AGW science deniers, attacks on “BigPharma” with implications on vaccinations, etc.)

We’ve raised a generation of internet professional deniers - people who found something somewhere on the internet and just don’t know enough to discern truth from falsehood.

155 Bagua  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:30:13pm

re: #145 darthstar

BP had suspended top kill for 16 hours, but failed to tell anybody…this while government representatives were telling the American people that top kill was continuing.

They didn’t suspend the top kill, they paused pumping mud to prepare for the next phase of the top kill and to gauge how much mud they got down the well. They need to gather the data in stages and it is a procession of different adjustments as they gather data. They already stated it could take days.

156 pingjockey  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:32:12pm

re: #152 Cato the Elder
We’ve had an extremely wet spring here on the east side of the Cascades. I was laughing today. A lot of the “Coasties” come over here to camp and play in the water, well the weather over here this weekend more closely resembles Seattle than our normal mid 70s and sunny for the end of May!

157 darthstar  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:34:03pm

re: #155 Bagua

They didn’t suspend the top kill, they paused pumping mud to prepare for the next phase of the top kill and to gauge how much mud they got down the well. They need to gather the data in stages and it is a procession of different adjustments as they gather data. They already stated it could take days.


That’s not exactly what they’re saying on CNN. BP hasn’t exactly been forthcoming with information on this.

158 pingjockey  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:34:16pm

Nap time. Had a 5am service call and I’m pooped!

159 Kragar  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:34:25pm

Scott Roeder was a murderous religious zealot and anyone who approves of what he did is a sick pathetic excuse of a human being.

160 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:35:11pm

re: #2 Walter L. Newton

In general, Christians who are pro-life actually help and support these killers. It’s like having a whole silent majority behind you.

Define pro-life.

161 Stanghazi  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:36:11pm

Watch to the end. It’s a nice way to end the week.

162 Gus  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:36:24pm

Outlawing abortion would lead to a massive increase in entitlement spending. Therefore, it’s a contradictory ideology to be opposed to taxes and abortion.

163 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:38:39pm

re: #160 SanFranciscoZionist

Define pro-life.

Me.
I had to stay out of this thread.

164 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:39:51pm

re: #162 Gus 802

Outlawing abortion would lead to a massive increase in entitlement spending. Therefore, it’s a contradictory ideology to be opposed to taxes and abortion.

No it’s not. Many abortion opponents think their responsibility for human life ends at birth.

165 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:40:15pm

re: #38 Walter L. Newton


Please, don’t argue biblical textual topics with me.

God forbid anyone should argue about the text.

166 Gus  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:42:27pm

re: #164 Cato the Elder

No it’s not. Many abortion opponents think their responsibility for human life ends at birth.

Exactly. That’s how things work in hypocrite world. I’m sure they’d come up with the usual ideas of having the private sector and faith based institutions provide care for the children amongst other fables and Utopian fantasies.

167 Bagua  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:43:59pm

re: #157 darthstar

That’s not exactly what they’re saying on CNN. BP hasn’t exactly been forthcoming with information on this.

I’ve seen a great deal of tripe and misinformation on CNN, FOX and the various MSM outlets. The are feeding an agenda, usually do. It’s all a soap opera about the public’s reaction, the politicians blabbering and grandstanding, hopes and fears, finger pointing and the blame game. What is going on is a highly technical operation, there is a PR angle, but to me that is far secondary to the actual engineering realities.

168 wrenchwench  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:45:11pm

re: #165 SanFranciscoZionist

God forbid anyone should argue about the text.

He did?

/

169 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:46:24pm

re: #62 marjoriemoon

That was me about 2 hours ago downstairs… I was making a point that outside of anti-abortionists, Christians stopped killing people around the time of the Crusades.

Not exactly, but European Christians have been doing MUCH BETTER the last few hundred years.

170 RogueOne  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:47:33pm

re: #162 Gus 802

Outlawing abortion would lead to a massive increase in entitlement spending. Therefore, it’s a contradictory ideology to be opposed to taxes and abortion.

Which is why the religious right opposed welfare reform during the clinton administration.

171 Gus  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:48:48pm

re: #170 RogueOne

Which is why the religious right opposed welfare reform during the clinton administration.

But wasn’t welfare reform about reducing welfare spending?

172 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:49:32pm

re: #85 Bagua

I think you are misinterpreting his writing style and adding some unnecessary emotional content in your reaction.

Problem is, Walter has announced to all and sundry that Walter knows more about religion than anyone else on the blog. When people contradict him, he insults them, and when people ask him for information, he tells them to Google it.

This pretty much shuts down any possibility of a real good conversation/argument.

173 RogueOne  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:50:27pm

re: #171 Gus 802

But wasn’t welfare reform about reducing welfare spending?

Their concern was less welfare=more abortions.

174 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:50:43pm

re: #103 freetoken

Glenn Beck, setting the bar lower and lower…


Glenn Beck attacks Obama daughter over oil spill worries

Almost too trashy to believe. And there it is!

175 RogueOne  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:50:55pm

re: #173 RogueOne

Their concern was less welfare=more abortions.

Which is basically what you were saying earlier.

176 Fozzie Bear  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:50:57pm

If you support the death penalty, you aren’t “pro-life”, imo.

177 Vicious Babushka  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:51:12pm

re: #172 SanFranciscoZionist

Problem is, Walter has announced to all and sundry that Walter knows more about religion than anyone else on the blog. When people contradict him, he insults them, and when people ask him for information, he tells them to Google it.

This pretty much shuts down any possibility of a real good conversation/argument.

Ludwig has pwn3d him several times.

178 RogueOne  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:51:39pm

re: #176 Fozzie Bear

If you support the death penalty, you aren’t “pro-life”, imo.

What if I support the death penalty for my obnoxious nosy neighbor? I think that should still count.

179 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:52:08pm

re: #133 Cato the Elder

Oh no, Gary Coleman is dead.

Wait, what…who was he?

He played an adorable child on a sitcom of my youth.

180 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:52:44pm

re: #173 RogueOne

Their concern was less welfare=more abortions.

Maybe, but the GOP as a whole was for welfare reform. That’s part of why Clinton signed it, to prevent Republicans using it as an issue.

181 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:52:45pm

re: #142 Cato the Elder

Yes, and I care more about my neighbors than some third-string celeb who hasn’t done anything in three decades.

He ran for governor of California!

(OK, so did everyone else for a while.)

182 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:53:16pm

re: #143 Locker

OT: I was fairly surprised to find out that President Obama is a West Ham fan. Even more remarkable (from the article) is that Hillary Clinton is a Manchester United fan.

I will wait for the obligatory mud slinging calling me a terrorist because I like Arsenal and so does Osama Bin Laden:

I’ve got an Arsenal scarf at home, so I am in no position to sling mud.

183 Fozzie Bear  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:53:49pm

re: #178 RogueOne

I think that’s more of a “pro peace and quiet” position.

184 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:54:50pm

re: #162 Gus 802

Outlawing abortion would lead to a massive increase in entitlement spending. Therefore, it’s a contradictory ideology to be opposed to taxes and abortion.

I think what they’re going for is a bit like “Angela’s Ashes”. Poor women have dozens of children who die young because they can’t get health care, or starve on scraps thrown to them by private charities.

No sarc.

185 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:55:16pm

re: #163 reine.de.tout

Me.
I had to stay out of this thread.

Kind of my point. I do not think the majority of pro-life anything support the Roeders of the world.

186 Stanghazi  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:55:56pm

re: #179 SanFranciscoZionist

He played an adorable child on a sitcom of my youth.

Seriously, I’m sad. I remember many many afternoons watching that show.

187 RogueOne  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:56:16pm

Out for awhile folks.

Gus, I left you a response on that other thread but it’s slipped off the main page. No hard feelings on my part, yours was a legit question. G/L with the IRL issues.

188 darthstar  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:56:49pm

re: #185 SanFranciscoZionist

Kind of my point. I do not think the majority of pro-life anything support the Roeders of the world.


I’m pro-life and I believe abortion should be safe, legal, and accessible for women who want/need it until delivery. Once you’re able to breathe the air on your own, you’re home free.

note: that doesn’t mean I believe women should be having elective abortions in their eighth month…not that I believe women who carried a pregnancy that far would…I’d be willing to bet that 100% of late-term abortions (partial-birth or other) are devastating events for the hopeful mother involved.

And I hope Roeder gets killed in prison…I guess I’m not as pro-life as I thought.

189 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:57:06pm

re: #176 Fozzie Bear

If you support the death penalty, you aren’t “pro-life”, imo.

I have a friend who is a Christian scholar…I suffered through her doctoral thesis with her, and now get the cold shakes any time anyone says the words “the seamless garment of Christ”.

190 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, May 28, 2010 12:57:33pm

re: #177 Alouette

Ludwig has pwn3d him several times.

Has he acknowledged it? :)

191 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, May 28, 2010 1:02:11pm

re: #179 SanFranciscoZionist

He played an adorable child on a sitcom of my youth.

Aw man :(

192 Bagua  Fri, May 28, 2010 1:18:31pm

re: #190 SanFranciscoZionist

Has he acknowledged it? :)

I thought Walter won.

193 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 28, 2010 1:29:08pm

re: #176 Fozzie Bear

If you support the death penalty, you aren’t “pro-life”, imo.

Why do people insist on adding “imo” to statements that are obviously their opinions?

194 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 28, 2010 1:41:06pm

re: #193 Cato the Elder

Why do people insist on adding “imo” to statements that are obviously their opinions?

For clarity, mostly.

195 goddamnedfrank  Fri, May 28, 2010 1:41:16pm

re: #160 SanFranciscoZionist

Define pro-life.

For me, the operational term should be pro-sentience, or pro self-awareness. I’m for the bare minimum criterion for inclusion to be the possession of a functioning central nervous system, and when that development occurs is when the discussion of comparative rights can begin.

If self awareness isn’t the primary operational test in this debate, then why did our society finally allow Terri Schiavo to die? At one end of life this criteria defines the settle law, at the other end we have Oklahoma lawmakers wanting to force women to undergo an invasive sonogram and be forced to look at an image representation of their one week old blastocyst. This seems to stem from the deliberate conflation that’s been made between the terms “human life” and “person.” One is an incredibly broad category that describes a species specific set of chromosomes, and the other describes an entity with rights.

196 engineer cat  Fri, May 28, 2010 1:41:19pm

re: #189 SanFranciscoZionist

I have a friend who is a Christian scholar…I suffered through her doctoral thesis with her, and now get the cold shakes any time anyone says the words “the seamless garment of Christ”.

i once recieved an email specifying that an aspect of the UI for a program should be “seemless”… if a celestial christ has a garment, “seemless” might be a good description of it…

197 Tigger2005  Fri, May 28, 2010 3:09:03pm

It’s possible there was no historical person called Jesus, that he was invented and the writers of the canonical gospels (and non-canonical gospels) put words in his mouth. Christianity likely began with a variety of widespread beliefs in an entirely spiritual savior god, who “saved” either by imparting spiritual knowledge or by performing a sacrificial act in a heavenly locale (such as the heavenly sanctuary in the book of Hebrews). At some point, a person in a Christian community who came to be known as “Mark” wrote an allegorical tale about his particular divine savior, bringing him to Earth in a semi-historical time period. Others followed his example, adding their own touches to his story, dropping some parts, adding others, rearranging events, etc. to fit their own theologies, ethics, and the like. After another few decades, people were beginning to see these stories as historical, to believe that the Logos/Christ had actually come to Earth and had been born as a human being.

In any case, it doesn’t really matter if “Jesus” didn’t say everything or anything the Bible says he did. Somebody said it. Somebody believed those things about the Logos/Christ, that the divine savior would say those things, and enough people believing this made an impact on human history. And I think many of “Jesus’” ethical teachings make sense and have been demonstrated to have positive effects on society. Thus they have value and are not “meaningless” just because “Jesus” did not say them.


re: #84 engineer dog

the way that some people who call themselves christians mercilessly torture texts from the bible to “prove” their point, they might as well be quoting the phone book

i’ve had many people explain to me that jesus didn’t say anything that he said

198 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 28, 2010 3:43:08pm

re: #194 Dark_Falcon

For clarity, mostly.

Inelegance, I call it.


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