About That Humanitarian Cargo

Middle East • Views: 3,138

An interesting report from Israel on the cargo carried by those “peace activists” — it was apparently haphazardly loaded, and not in shortage in Gaza.

Twenty-four hours after the last ship of the Gaza aid flotilla entered the Ashdod Port under the watchful eye of the Israeli Navy, all of the equipment on board was examined Tuesday and the majority of it was loaded onto trucks headed to the Kerem Shalom border crossing. The flotilla’s flagship, the Marmara - where the clash between Israeli commandoes and the passengers took place and which held the participant’s personal belongings - had yet to be fully inspected.

In a statement to reporters at the port on Tuesday, Colonel Moshe Levi, commander of the IDF’s Gaza Strip Coordination and Liaison Administration (CLA), said that none of the equipment found on board the three cargo ships was in shortage in Gaza.

“We have been working non-stop for the last twenty-four hours examining the cargo holds of the three large cargo ships and I can say with great assurance, that none of the equipment on board is needed in Gaza. The equipment that we found is all equipment that we have regularly allowed into the strip over the past year,” said Levi. “This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the whole premise of the voyage was for propaganda and provocation and not for humanitarian purposes.”

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1093 comments
1 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:35:09pm

You just don’t understand how desperately they need that stuff they have no use for!

2 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:36:27pm

What they really needed wanted was bombs, rockets, and ammo. Those items are scheduled to be delivered an a future run.

3 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:36:29pm

But they had wheelchairs! Wheeeelchaaaaaairs!

4 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:36:47pm

I still wanna know who the departed peace activists were…

5 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:37:58pm

re: #3 Alouette

But they had wheelchairs! Wheeelchaaairs!

Now they have to actually carry the bombs!

6 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:39:13pm

Shrugs. We’ll never know the truth of this incident.

I don’t think any of the True Believers on either side of this struggle care. They’ve already made up their minds about who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.

I just wish they’d be honest about it.

7 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:40:00pm

/the wheel chairs are really intended as a subtle threat to political opponents…

8 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:40:07pm

re: #6 Romantic Heretic

Shrugs. We’ll never know the truth of this incident.

I don’t think any of the True Believers on either side of this struggle care. They’ve already made up their minds about who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.

I just wish they’d be honest about it.

Who is not being honest?

9 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:40:21pm

I’m shocked!
Well, no, I’m not.
Still, I’m shocked!

10 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:43:13pm

re: #6 Romantic Heretic

Shrugs. We’ll never know the truth of this incident.

I don’t think any of the True Believers on either side of this struggle care. They’ve already made up their minds about who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.

I just wish they’d be honest about it.

know? shit it was easy enough to predict let alone know. honest enough for you?

11 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:43:32pm

You know what they need? Cartoons that have nothing at all to do with either Jews or Palestinians. I’m thinking Transformers.

12 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:44:46pm

re: #11 JasonA

You know what they need? Cartoons that have nothing at all to do with either Jews or Palestinians. I’m thinking Transformers.

not so much, the decepticons have every thing to do with this, no?

13 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:45:54pm

re: #11 JasonA

You know what they need? Cartoons that have nothing at all to do with either Jews or Palestinians. I’m thinking Transformers.

Disney Princesses! (except “Aladdin”)

14 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:46:12pm

re: #12 brookly red

Fine. I’ll settle for anything but anime.

15 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:46:43pm

re: #14 JasonA

Fine. I’ll settle for anything but anime.

*MAKA~ CHOP!*

16 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:47:25pm

re: #7 brookly red

/the wheel chairs are really intended as a subtle threat to political opponents…

I could see that. I’ve read about Chicago and New York gangs that might try something like that.

17 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:47:31pm

re: #15 Varek Raith

*MAKA~ CHOP!*

Do you SEE what I’m talking about?

18 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:49:18pm

re: #16 Dark_Falcon

I could see that. I’ve read about Chicago and New York gangs that might try something like that.

well in that part of the world there seem to be a lot of accident prone people, first the vote the wrong way and then they fall off a roof… go figure.

19 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:49:34pm

re: #17 JasonA

Do you SEE what I’m talking about?

Nope.
*Charges Wave Motion Gun, targets JasonA*

20 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:50:02pm

re: #6 Romantic Heretic

Shrugs. We’ll never know the truth of this incident.

I don’t think any of the True Believers on either side of this struggle care. They’ve already made up their minds about who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.

I just wish they’d be honest about it.

You first.

Why do you hate the Jews?

21 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:50:10pm

re: #12 brookly red

not so much, the decepticons have every thing to do with this, no?

No.They actually have firepower with which to back up their words. These Islamists scream about how brave they are, then run and hide behind womens’ skirts when they run into Israeli pushback. They aren’t fit to polish Megatron’s armor.

22 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:50:55pm

re: #19 Varek Raith

Nope.
*Charges Wave Motion Gun, targets JasonA*

/ OMG just don’t strafe.

23 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:51:02pm

Don’t believe the Hamas hype.

Food is not in shortage in Gaza.

Neither are basic items.

Heck, Gazans are trying to figure out buying washing machines, dryers, and refrigerators. They’re throwing out food that they grow on Gazan farms because they can’t sell it for export. That, in and of itself, is telling because they have sufficient food on hand to allow for considering export.

This was an agitprop attempt to provoke a confrontation - one that Israel could not avoid because that blockade protects Israel from Hamas getting resupplied with weapons and materials that Hamas needs for its ongoing jihad with Israel.

24 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:51:16pm

was anything on the ship actually verboten?

25 fiveonefive  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:51:24pm

Man people are just figuring out that this was about symbolically breaking the blockade and not really about bringing aid to Gaza?

26 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:51:38pm

re: #19 Varek Raith

Why do you have to all be so weird? :P

27 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:51:57pm

re: #22 brookly red

/ OMG just don’t strafe.

Lol, saw that.
:)
Still, it would be fun to strafe with the Wave Motion Gun, seeing as it’s a planet killer and all.

28 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:51:59pm

OT: But good news for people who fear their job getting outsourced and bad news for GOPers who claim they’re concerned about constituents’ jobs.

House Democrats are home for a long Memorial Day break with a gift-wrapped wedge issue delivered just in time for district campaigning. One of their final actions before adjourning late Friday was passing a measure that would strip tax breaks for companies that ship jobs overseas by a 215-204 vote.


tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com

29 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:52:20pm

re: #25 fiveonefive

As I’ve finally done my own reading and caught up, I don’t think that question was ever in doubt :p

30 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:52:26pm

re: #6 Romantic Heretic

Shrugs. We’ll never know the truth of this incident.

I don’t think any of the True Believers on either side of this struggle care. They’ve already made up their minds about who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.

I just wish they’d be honest about it.

We already know the truth about this incident. But feel free to continue with the false moral equivalence. I’m happy to keep downdinging you.

31 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:52:31pm

re: #24 windsagio

was anything on the ship actually verboten?

It could have been filled with flowers and puppies and it still wouldn’t have the right to dock in Gaza.

32 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:52:58pm

re: #31 JasonA

That wasn’t my question :P

33 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:52:59pm

re: #25 fiveonefive

Man people are just figuring out that this was about symbolically breaking the blockade and not really about bringing aid to Gaza?

re: #2 Racer X

What they really needed wanted was bombs, rockets, and ammo. Those items are scheduled to be delivered an a future run.

What they really wanted was future shipments to go through unchecked.

34 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:53:29pm

re: #31 JasonA

I’m sure the Israeli army lies, just like the US army never lies >>

(/duck!)

35 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:53:57pm

re: #32 windsagio

That wasn’t my question :P

the ships them selves were verboten as well as some of the people on them.

36 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:54:09pm

re: #26 JasonA

Why do you have to all be so weird? :P

Okay Mr. PipBoyAllahShootingFireFromHisHands.
:P

37 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:54:09pm

re: #32 windsagio

That wasn’t my question :P

I know, but it sounded good.

And no, but they aren’t done yet.

38 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:55:59pm

re: #36 Varek Raith

Okay Mr. PipBoyAllahShootingFireFromHisHands.
:P

Touché.

39 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:56:30pm

re: #38 JasonA

Touché.

Besides, we’re all weirdos here!
:)
BBL.

40 abolitionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:57:02pm

Beginning about 60sec into this vid, many examples of cargo:
The MV Rachel Corrie sets sail, the first ship in the flotilla to launch
Paper, wheelchairs, walkers, camp beds, canes, medical supplies …
/sniff

41 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:57:50pm

re: #23 lawhawk


Heck, Gazans are trying to figure out buying washing machines, dryers, and refrigerators. They’re throwing out food that they grow on Gazan farms because they can’t sell it for export. That, in and of itself, is telling because they have sufficient food on hand to allow for considering export.

This was an agitprop attempt to provoke a confrontation - one that Israel could not avoid because that blockade protects Israel from Hamas getting resupplied with weapons and materials that Hamas needs for its ongoing jihad with Israel.

Isn’t the ability to export a key factor in building an economy?

42 fiveonefive  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:59:20pm

cycle of violence

very sad

*tears

43 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:59:36pm

I’m not sure the Israeli Army is the right group to be making the call about what is and isn’t in short supply in Gaza. I’m not saying they’re wrong, but the article certainly doesn’t go into much detail about what exactly was contained on the ship.

44 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:59:51pm

re: #41 darthstar

Isn’t the ability to export a key factor in building an economy?

Depends on what you’re “exporting”.

45 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:59:56pm

re: #41 darthstar

Isn’t the ability to export a key factor in building an economy?

I can’t decide weather to snark about their rockets or our congress…

46 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:00:33pm

re: #41 darthstar

as it happens I heard an interesting thing on NPR on my way to lunch where a guy was talking about how the blockade was strengthening Hamas’ hold, because they ended up with firmer control over the distribution of goods.

Dunno if its true or not, but it was an interesting thought.

47 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:01:14pm

Throw a bunch of random junk in a boat and call it humanitarian aid, then pack as many jihadists as you can fit on board, name the whole thing “Itbah al-Yahud”, and dupe the world press into following your progress as though you were the Red Cross and the WHO combined.

If these people really gave a shit about conditions in Gaza, they could work with established international aid groups to get stuff in that was truly needed, not a bunch of crappy castoffs scraped together from various wharves around the Mediterranean. And they could work with the people in Gaza to get them to see that clinging to Hamas will only prolong the blockade.

48 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:01:27pm

re: #41 darthstar

Isn’t the ability to export a key factor in building an economy?

Huge. Imagine what the U.S. would be like if we couldn’t export anything we made…

49 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:02:09pm

re: #48 drcordell

Huge. Imagine what the U.S. would be like if we couldn’t export anything we made…

We still make things?

50 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:02:13pm

VIDEOS! =)

What is Free Gaza?


and DAMN this kid has BALLS! (Lone pro-Israel high school student fearlessly braves a raving mad mob of Palestinian supporters)

51 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:02:19pm

re: #41 darthstar

The blockade would be lifted if Hamas were out of power. The blockade and economic sanctions put in place were to thwart Hamas from profiting from their takeover of Gaza.

But it would also appear that the economy has done well enough that the Gazans are able to peruse a fine selection of new washers and dryers and other white goods. They’re certainly not as starving and hurting as Hamas would like people to believe.

52 fiveonefive  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:02:24pm

I thought the UN is in charge of the distribution of goods. Remember back a few months ago when they almost quit Gaza because Hamas kept trying to run their operation.

And the UN dudes don’t ever like to pass over operations to natives. No where in the world do they honestly believe natives can handle their own economy better than they can with their ivy league degrees.

53 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:02:37pm

re: #47 Cato the Elder

again’ tho, their point was to challenge the blockade.

54 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:02:51pm

re: #49 jamesfirecat

We still make things?

Beat me to it, you bastard.

55 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:02:57pm

re: #46 windsagio

as it happens I heard an interesting thing on NPR on my way to lunch where a guy was talking about how the blockade was strengthening Hamas’ hold, because they ended up with firmer control over the distribution of goods.

Dunno if its true or not, but it was an interesting thought.

not doubt there is some twisted truth to that but the reality is they have they guns so they run the show.

56 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:03:16pm

re: #47 Cato the Elder

Throw a bunch of random junk in a boat and call it humanitarian aid, then pack as many jihadists as you can fit on board, name the whole thing “Itbah al-Yahud”, and dupe the world press into following your progress as though you were the Red Cross and the WHO combined.

If these people really gave a shit about conditions in Gaza, they could work with established international aid groups to get stuff in that was truly needed, not a bunch of crappy castoffs scraped together from various wharves around the Mediterranean. And they could work with the people in Gaza to get them to see that clinging to Hamas will only prolong the blockade.

Cato, it’s obvious on the face that this was intended to be a PR stunt. Yes, the ships were loaded with aid. But it’s so abundantly clear that this was about shining the international media spotlight on the Gaza blockade. And Israel played right into the hands of the activists with their response by killing 10 of them. It’s an epic fail on so many different levels.

57 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:03:31pm

re: #55 brookly red

‘twisted truth’? Why twisted?

58 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:03:42pm

re: #23 lawhawk

Don’t believe the Hamas hype.

Food is not in shortage in Gaza.

Neither are basic items.

Heck, Gazans are trying to figure out buying washing machines, dryers, and refrigerators. They’re throwing out food that they grow on Gazan farms because they can’t sell it for export. That, in and of itself, is telling because they have sufficient food on hand to allow for considering export.

This was an agitprop attempt to provoke a confrontation - one that Israel could not avoid because that blockade protects Israel from Hamas getting resupplied with weapons and materials that Hamas needs for its ongoing jihad with Israel.

The only thing in short supply in Gaza are weapons and explosives Hamas promises to use in their stated genocidal intent.

Those Jew bastards are always getting in the way. Why won’t they just lay down and die like they did in Europe?

59 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:03:51pm

re: #43 drcordell

What was on the ship is actually besides the point.

The blockade was legal under international law and Israel could just as surely sunk all those ships for attempting to run the blockade.

Hamas used the entire situation to create a propaganda opportunity - and they will do so again and again, undermining Israel’s existence at every opportunity.

60 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:04:00pm

re: #46 windsagio

as it happens I heard an interesting thing on NPR on my way to lunch where a guy was talking about how the blockade was strengthening Hamas’ hold, because they ended up with firmer control over the distribution of goods.

Dunno if its true or not, but it was an interesting thought.

It’s making Hamas wildly unpopular amongst their own people though. I believe that is one of the primary (strategic) goals of the blockade — boost the “good guys” in the West Bank.

(Aside from preventing smuggling of course)

61 Jerk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:04:20pm

re: #43 drcordell

I’m not sure the Israeli Army is the right group to be making the call about what is and isn’t in short supply in Gaza. I’m not saying they’re wrong, but the article certainly doesn’t go into much detail about what exactly was contained on the ship.

They did not go into detail, that’s true. But check this out:
From Wikipedia: The C.L.A is the military unit responsible to coordinate access to and from the Gaza Strip, facilitate activities of the International community and facilitate civilian and humanitarian needs and requirements of the Palestinian population of the Gaza Strip with regard to Israel.

62 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:04:29pm

re: #52 fiveonefive

I thought the UN is in charge of the distribution of goods. Remember back a few months ago when they almost quit Gaza because Hamas kept trying to run their operation.

And the UN dudes don’t ever like to pass over operations to natives. No where in the world do they honestly believe natives can handle their own economy better than they can with their ivy league degrees.

Well in this case it’s doubtlessly a good thing that the UN is keeping control of the distribution of goods.

That said, it also seems only fair that they keep whatever process they have be the same across the world.

At least everyone is equally upset that way….

63 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:04:43pm

re: #49 jamesfirecat

We still make things?

With what money? We live in a globalized economy. The chair you’re sitting on, the computer you’re posting this on, the screen you’re viewing this on. All made elsewhere. All imported. If you were in Gaza it would have been smuggled through a tunnel, with a tax paid to terrorists.

64 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:05:10pm

re: #43 drcordell

I’m not sure the Israeli Army is the right group to be making the call about what is and isn’t in short supply in Gaza. I’m not saying they’re wrong, but the article certainly doesn’t go into much detail about what exactly was contained on the ship.

I’d say the Israeli army is sure to know what Gaza has and does not have. They’ve got drone surveillance and they know what Israel has let in. I trust their assessments far more than any NGO, most of whom have an ax to grind as far as Israel is concerned.

65 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:05:24pm

re: #60 Joo-LiZ


Can you show some evidence for that? I’d imagine there’d be alot of propaganda that it was Israel’s fault.

66 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:05:41pm

re: #58 researchok

Should have added the sarc tag.

67 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:05:46pm

re: #57 windsagio

‘twisted truth’? Why twisted?

because there is no competition to Hamas, it is not like there is any other power to distribute the goods.

68 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:06:20pm

re: #59 lawhawk

What was on the ship is actually besides the point.

The blockade was legal under international law and Israel could just as surely sunk all those ships for attempting to run the blockade.

Hamas used the entire situation to create a propaganda opportunity - and they will do so again and again, undermining Israel’s existence at every opportunity.

It’s not Hamas. It’s people who actually give a fuck about the Palestinian population that isn’t terrorists. You can keep lumping everyone together into one boat, but there are plenty of innocent people living in Gaza.

69 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:06:26pm

re: #47 Cato the Elder

Throw a bunch of random junk in a boat and call it humanitarian aid, then pack as many jihadists as you can fit on board, name the whole thing “Itbah al-Yahud”, and dupe the world press into following your progress as though you were the Red Cross and the WHO combined.

If these people really gave a shit about conditions in Gaza, they could work with established international aid groups to get stuff in that was truly needed, not a bunch of crappy castoffs scraped together from various wharves around the Mediterranean. And they could work with the people in Gaza to get them to see that clinging to Hamas will only prolong the blockade.

The blockade would be lifted in a minute if they would just release Gilad Shalit.

70 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:06:45pm

re: #67 brookly red

That’s the point tho’.

71 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:06:50pm

re: #60 Joo-LiZ

It’s making Hamas wildly unpopular amongst their own people though. I believe that is one of the primary (strategic) goals of the blockade — boost the “good guys” in the West Bank.

(Aside from preventing smuggling of course)

I guess one big question is, how frequently are elections held there and when will there be another one?

Elections are really the only way to tell what the people think, or at least the only way that seeing what people think directly impact their government…

72 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:07:07pm

re: #68 drcordell

It’s not Hamas. It’s people who actually give a fuck about the Palestinian population that isn’t terrorists. You can keep lumping everyone together into one boat, but there are plenty of innocent people living in Gaza.

Where are all the demonstrations in Gaza calling on Hamas to release Shalit so the blockade can be lifted?

73 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:07:08pm

re: #64 Dark_Falcon

I’d say the Israeli army is sure to know what Gaza has and does not have. They’ve got drone surveillance and they know what Israel has let in. I trust their assessments far more than any NGO, most of whom have an ax to grind as far as Israel is concerned.

Yeah. Israel has no agenda with regard to Gaza at all. Completely honest brokers….

74 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:07:13pm

Dateline (AP) June 1st 2010 Gaza Strip
Today Hamas Officials vehemently denied charges of Materials being imported via the Flotilla was not needed and was basically junk.
” These supplies were needed for our newly planned High Tech Recycling Center” Declared Ali Muhanded, a local City Councilmen.
Asked about rumors his Uncle had signed a contract with Al Gore to import all his trash from his new new Italian Villa, Ali had no comment.
“Once again the Zionist stop us from a new project!” He screamed holding up the broken leg of one of many wheelchairs.
Experts are weighing in on the loss of recycling income to the National GDP on the Economy and opinions are bleak for the long term..
Head UN economist For the UN, Wilhelm Musterborger issued a statement today…” This is a sad day for the oppressed Gazan left without the Human rights of recycling.”

75 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:07:35pm

re: #73 drcordell

prepare to get slapped a few times for that one >>

76 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:07:42pm

re: #65 windsagio

Can you show some evidence for that? I’d imagine there’d be alot of propaganda that it was Israel’s fault.

Here is something non-concrete from David Makovsky (actually discusses the whole blockade):

The unspoken argument for the blockade is that it has been effective. In the past two years, Hamas leadership continually trails the popularity of the Palestinian Authority and Fatah in the West Bank as people understand that Hamas has not been able to declare business as usual.

I heard Danny Ayalon cite 17% approval for Hamas amongst Palestinians, but I dunno where to find that statistic again.

77 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:08:16pm

re: #68 drcordell

It’s not Hamas. It’s people who actually give a fuck about the Palestinian population that isn’t terrorists. You can keep lumping everyone together into one boat, but there are plenty of innocent people living in Gaza.

Didn’t the “people” vote Hamas in?

78 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:08:17pm

re: #63 drcordell

With what money? We live in a globalized economy. The chair you’re sitting on, the computer you’re posting this on, the screen you’re viewing this on. All made elsewhere. All imported. If you were in Gaza it would have been smuggled through a tunnel, with a tax paid to terrorists.

If you agree with me (that the US doesn’t make most of its current stuff we make use of) why did you downding me?

Not trying to wine, just want to understand your train of thought….

79 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:09:06pm

re: #77 sattv4u2

I think they got 44%. Also the news keeps talking about them ‘siezing power’, so I presume there was some skullduggery at least.

80 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:09:07pm

re: #73 drcordell

Yeah. Israel has no agenda with regard to Gaza at all. Completely honest brokers…

Sadly, drcordell, Israel wants to get the hell out of there and leave Gaza alone.

GOOD RIDDANCE!

But, they can’t, cause of those damn pesky rockets and terror attacks that would emanate from there if they didn’t.

Israel’s agenda is to stop the terrorist group from having the power to harm Israelis.

81 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:09:45pm

re: #68 drcordell

It’s not Hamas. It’s people who actually give a fuck about the Palestinian population that isn’t terrorists. You can keep lumping everyone together into one boat, but there are plenty of innocent people living in Gaza.

They voted for Hamas and won the election fair and square with a large majority.. It isn’t as if they didn’t know who they were voting for.

82 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:09:47pm

re: #70 windsagio

That’s the point tho’.

do you really think that if the blockade was lifted the it would weaken Hamas?

83 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:09:50pm

re: #80 Joo-LiZ

Sadly, drcordell, Israel wants to get the hell out of there and leave Gaza alone.

GOOD RIDDANCE!

But, they can’t, cause of those damn pesky rockets and terror attacks that would emanate from there if they didn’t.

Israel’s agenda is to stop the terrorist group from having the power to harm Israelis.

(note: the same can’t be said of the west bank at this point)

84 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:09:53pm

re: #75 windsagio

prepare to get slapped a few times for that one >>

It’s the truth. I’m just being honest here. Everyone has an agenda. Israel is acting with the interests of it’s own people first. As I would expect them to. Don’t try and blow some smoke up my ass and tell me Israel is acting in the interests of the Palestinians. They’re not. Israel is looking out for Israelis first and foremost. Just as I’d expect America to look out for Americans first.

85 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:10:13pm

re: #80 Joo-LiZ

To be perfectly frank I think the actual problem is that there’s more than a little bit of dick-wagging around this whole thing.

86 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:10:23pm

re: #78 jamesfirecat

If you agree with me (that the US doesn’t make most of its current stuff we make use of) why did you downding me?

Not trying to wine, just want to understand your train of thought…

It’s been derailed for awhile now

87 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:10:56pm

re: #44 sattv4u2

Depends on what you’re “exporting”.

Food…food which goes to waste because they can’t export it.

88 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:11:31pm

re: #87 darthstar

Food…food which goes to waste because they can’t export it.

They can eat it themselves. They’re starving.

89 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:11:35pm

re: #84 drcordell

It’s the truth. I’m just being honest here. Everyone has an agenda. Israel is acting with the interests of it’s own people first. As I would expect them to. Don’t try and blow some smoke up my ass and tell me Israel is acting in the interests of the Palestinians. They’re not. Israel is looking out for Israelis first and foremost. Just as I’d expect America to look out for Americans first.

That’s a fair assessment. Upding.

90 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:11:58pm

re: #81 researchok

They voted for Hamas and won the election fair and square with a large majority.. It isn’t as if they didn’t know who they were voting for.

So fucking SICK of hearing that goddamn tired trope. I didn’t vote for George W. Bush. I didn’t condone any of his foreign policy decisions. You act as if an “election” means that 100% of the people voted a single way.

91 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:12:04pm

re: #87 darthstar

Food…food which goes to waste because they can’t export it.

Terrorists,,, terrorists that blow up pizza parlors

THATS the “waste”

92 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:12:14pm

re: #84 drcordell

It’s the truth. I’m just being honest here. Everyone has an agenda. Israel is acting with the interests of it’s own people first. As I would expect them to. Don’t try and blow some smoke up my ass and tell me Israel is acting in the interests of the Palestinians. They’re not. Israel is looking out for Israelis first and foremost. Just as I’d expect America to look out for Americans first.

OK. So what’s your problem?

93 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:12:24pm

re: #68 drcordell

It’s not Hamas. It’s people who actually give a fuck about the Palestinian population that isn’t terrorists. You can keep lumping everyone together into one boat, but there are plenty of innocent people living in Gaza.

Sadly, this is a mixing of two separate issues.

1) Average Palestinians want to be unoccupied, so Israel, trying to accomodate that, withdrew from Gaza.

2) Terror groups in the new Israel-free zone used it as a base from which to perpetrate terror attacks against Israel.

If Israel went in, the world would condemn them for reoccupying Gaza, and frankly, Israel does not want it back. They have given up too much in withdrawing to just take it back.

94 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:13:00pm

re: #85 windsagio

To be perfectly frank I think the actual problem is that there’s more than a little bit of dick-wagging around this whole thing.

consider who’s doing the wagging….and it’s for sure not the problem…it’s like you have no regard for innocent dead people

95 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:13:15pm

re: #84 drcordell

It’s the truth. I’m just being honest here. Everyone has an agenda. Israel is acting with the interests of it’s own people first. As I would expect them to. Don’t try and blow some smoke up my ass and tell me Israel is acting in the interests of the Palestinians. They’re not. Israel is looking out for Israelis first and foremost. Just as I’d expect America to look out for Americans first.

No need for neutrality here. Screw the Palestinians. They voted for Hamas knowing full well their genocidal agenda.

The Nazis tried to hide their real intentions. Hamas could not be bothered and a large majority of Gaza Palestinians gave them their seal of approval.

96 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:13:22pm

re: #92 Alouette

The problem is presumably reacting to the monoculture on here. Dealing with radicals tends to radicalize, if just a little.

97 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:13:49pm

re: #90 drcordell

So fucking SICK of hearing that goddamn tired trope. I didn’t vote for George W. Bush. I didn’t condone any of his foreign policy decisions. You act as if an “election” means that 100% of the people voted a single way.

I’m ready for a general uprising against Hamas…

98 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:13:49pm

re: #84 drcordell

It’s the truth. I’m just being honest here. Everyone has an agenda. Israel is acting with the interests of it’s own people first. As I would expect them to. Don’t try and blow some smoke up my ass and tell me Israel is acting in the interests of the Palestinians. They’re not. Israel is looking out for Israelis first and foremost. Just as I’d expect America to look out for Americans first.

and, for the record, the reason Israel wanted to unoccupy Gaza is because they were told by the world it would be in their own interest, and the Israelis believed the world.

99 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:13:54pm

re: #96 windsagio

I’m just guessing tho’, shouldn’t put words into his mouth

100 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:13:59pm

re: #91 sattv4u2

Terrorists,,, terrorists that blow up pizza parlors

oh the horror…

101 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:14:07pm

re: #68 drcordell

Again, you fundamentally don’t get it. What the Palestinian guy on the street wants or needs is entirely besides the point. They may have voted for Hamas into power in 2006, but Hamas took over in 2007 and has held a firm grip on what goes on there ever since.

Hamas, and Fatah, have engaged in indoctrinating Palestinians to seek Israel’s destruction for generations.

And those who were involved in this so called “relief” effort were involved in international terror groups, and were more than willing to get into a violent confrontation. They weren’t exactly hiding their interest in engaging in violence either.

102 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:14:28pm

re: #92 Alouette

OK. So what’s your problem?

My problem is people who can’t wrap their head around the fact that Israel has a huge stake in how the Gaza situation turns out. And their agenda doesn’t exactly jive with that of the Palestinians. And some people can’t possibly fathom that Israel may be acting unilaterally in it’s own interests.

103 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:14:53pm

re: #97 albusteve

I’m ready for a general uprising against Hamas…

yes too bad you are not a Pali…

104 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:15:15pm

If Arabs lay down their weapons there is peace.
If Jews lay down their weapons there is no more Israel.

105 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:15:29pm

re: #90 drcordell

So fucking SICK of hearing that goddamn tired trope. I didn’t vote for George W. Bush. I didn’t condone any of his foreign policy decisions. You act as if an “election” means that 100% of the people voted a single way.

Good thing you weren’t in charge during WWII. There were Germans who weren’t Nazis. I guess that means you wouldn’t have supported an intervention.

Deal with the real world. There are bad and dysfunctional people out there.

And I’m so sorry you are sick and tired of reality.

106 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:15:31pm

re: #102 drcordell

My problem is people who can’t wrap their head around the fact that Israel has a huge stake in how the Gaza situation turns out. And their agenda doesn’t exactly jive with that of the Palestinians. And some people can’t possibly fathom that Israel may be acting unilaterally in it’s own interests.

I think more fundamentally there is a difference in what we believe Israel sees as its interest, as well as what we believe the Palestinians see as their own interest.

107 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:15:47pm

re: #102 drcordell

My problem is people who can’t wrap their head around the fact that Israel has a huge stake in how the Gaza situation turns out. And their agenda doesn’t exactly jive with that of the Palestinians. And some people can’t possibly fathom that Israel may be acting unilaterally in it’s own interests.

who are you and where did you hide cordell’s body?

108 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:15:51pm

re: #100 brookly red

well don’t put fucking pineapple on your pizza then….problem solved

109 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:16:15pm

re: #95 researchok

No need for neutrality here. Screw the Palestinians. They voted for Hamas knowing full well their genocidal agenda.

The Nazis tried to hide their real intentions. Hamas could not be bothered and a large majority of Gaza Palestinians gave them their seal of approval.

A large majority of the Palestinians who actually voted in the election. Just a bit of a difference. I refuse to simply lump every man woman and child into a single lot and say they deserve to be shelled with white phosphorus simply because they happen to have been born into a war zone.

110 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:16:18pm

re: #73 drcordell

Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 - Palestinians had every opportunity to make a peaceful break with Israel.

And they chose war. Now, when Israel defends itself from terrorists who operate out of Gaza, you’re complaining.

Again.

Israel occupied Gaza and folks like yourself complained.

Israel withdrew from Gaza and you’re still finding ways to complain about Israel even though it was on the Palestinians to make peace with Israel. They had the opportunity and they chose the more violent terror group to affiliate with and voted for. Now, they’re getting what they wanted - violence and war. Again.

111 Summer Seale  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:16:28pm

The Palestinians get more aid per capita than any other group of people or nation on earth.

Literally.

And the only thing they have ever, ever, invented were home made shoddy but crudely terrifying rockets in a fucking garage in Gaza, packed with nails and piece of glass and laced with rat poison and other vile things to try to kill or maim as many Jews as possible in random pot shots.

I’m sorry but, if you’d give me any amount of land with the money and aid that they get, I’d at least build a new road or two, a new sewage system, a new power grid, or a new park - just to show people I’m actually civilized and not some barbaric throwback from the seventh century who thinks that living in a cave is the height of accomplishment from the human race because it told me in some damned bronze aged documents written in some mad flea-bitten desert where the sun never stops shining and people, amazingly, have never become enlightened.

At least I’d invent a new kind of pencil…or something other than crude killing devices. I’d try to make the Israelis understand I actually don’t want to kill them all and I just want to have a normal life.

But hey! That’s me. I’m not beholden to some invisible dragon sky god we are told is perfect, and I don’t happen to think that dying for him is the best damn thing you can do with your life. Maybe that makes me less than perfect, but it sure as fuck also makes me a hell of a lot smarter.

112 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:16:31pm

Alan Colmes is on O’Reilly right now, referring to the Islamists who were killed as “the civilians”. Is to think that Bill O’Reilly should simply slam Colmes’ head into the desk a few times for being is willing to buy into Islamist propaganda.

113 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:16:42pm

re: #102 drcordell

My problem is people who can’t wrap their head around the fact that Israel has a huge stake in how the Gaza situation turns out. And their agenda doesn’t exactly jive with that of the Palestinians. And some people can’t possibly fathom that Israel may be acting unilaterally in it’s own interests.

{sigh}

Of course Israel “has a huge stake in how the Gaza situation turns out”

Israel would like 1st and foremost NOT to have to look skyward towards that border for INCOMING ROCKETS, rockets that are fired from “peoples” backyards, those same “people” YOU want to disassociate from HAMAS

114 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:16:47pm

re: #84 drcordell

It’s the truth. I’m just being honest here. Everyone has an agenda. Israel is acting with the interests of it’s own people first. As I would expect them to. Don’t try and blow some smoke up my ass and tell me Israel is acting in the interests of the Palestinians. They’re not. Israel is looking out for Israelis first and foremost. Just as I’d expect America to look out for Americans first.

No, that’s not true. I mean, they look after their own, of course, but they give aid to Gaza monthly. Food, clothing, fuel and plenty more. Here is a summary of the last two years. Read through this, please.

mfa.gov.il

Here’s a sampling:

Weekly summary of the Gaza crossings: 16-22 May 2010
- 523 truckloads (13,517 tons) of goods were transferred to the Gaza Strip.
- 938,127 liters of heavy-duty diesel for the Gaza power station, and 645 tons of cooking gas were delivered.
- 281 Gaza residents entered Israel for medical reasons via the Erez Crossing.

Weekly summary of the Gaza crossings: 9-14 May 2010
- 637 truckloads (14,069 tons) of goods were transferred to the Gaza Strip.
- 810,209 liters of heavy-duty diesel for the Gaza power station, and 897 tons of cooking gas were delivered.
- 781 Gaza residents entered Israel for medical reasons via the Erez Crossing.
Weekly summary of the Gaza crossings: 2 -8 May 2010
- 714 truckloads (17,060 tons) of goods were transferred to the Gaza Strip.
- 1,535,777 liters of heavy-duty diesel for the Gaza power station and 293,796 liters for transportation, and 917 tons of cooking gas were delivered.
- 370 Gaza residents entered Israel for medical reasons and 93 entered Israel for other reasons via the Erez Crossing.

Construction materials are blocked because they gave them construction materials to build schools, markets, homes, whatever, and they built weapons caches and bunkers.

115 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:16:54pm

Wow, political cartoon right on the money:

Image: 28095_400374807258_704667258_4108262_5535271_n.jpg

116 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:17:50pm

re: #105 researchok

Good thing you weren’t in charge during WWII. There were Germans who weren’t Nazis. I guess that means you wouldn’t have supported an intervention.

Deal with the real world. There are bad and dysfunctional people out there.

And I’m so sorry you are sick and tired of reality.

Godwin called, he wants his law back.

117 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:18:17pm

re: #112 Dark_Falcon

Alan Colmes is on O’Reilly right now, referring to the Islamists who were killed as “the civilians”. Is to think that Bill O’Reilly should simply slam Colmes’ head into the desk a few times for being is willing to buy into Islamist propaganda.

At the risk of putting my head/neck/tail on the line…. what military were those people on the boat members of?

118 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:18:45pm

If there are Palestinians who really want peace, let them organize, step forward and agree to the 3 fundamental Israeli, American, UN, and Quartet conditions fro peace:

Recognition of Israel
Secure borders
Cessation of violence.

Which one of those is too onerous a burden for the Palestinians?

119 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:19:00pm

re: #20 Racer X

I don’t.

120 avanti  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:19:05pm

Cutting the riser pipe now, lots of oil flowing out.

BP.

121 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:19:45pm

re: #109 drcordell

A large majority of the Palestinians who actually voted in the election. Just a bit of a difference. I refuse to simply lump every man woman and child into a single lot and say they deserve to be shelled with white phosphorus simply because they happen to have been born into a war zone.

Really? Jimmy Carter was quite pleased with the voter turnout?

122 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:19:47pm

re: #102 drcordell

My problem is people who can’t wrap their head around the fact that Israel has a huge stake in how the Gaza situation turns out. And their agenda doesn’t exactly jive with that of the Palestinians. And some people can’t possibly fathom that Israel may be acting unilaterally in it’s own interests.

Well, if you mean that Israel is acting in such a way that they are not going to have the Palestinians kill and terrorize their country, if you mean that Israel is acting in such a way that they are intent on securing their borders from all sorts of terror, if you mean that Israel is acting like a sovereign democratic nation with no intent of letting a Islamic/Fascist conquerer take control, then yes…

That’s certainly fucking acting in their interest, and most of the worlds interest. It’s not just the problem of a small podunk tribe in the outback… it’s a situation that can negatively affect the whole region.

We agree.

123 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:20:01pm

re: #117 jamesfirecat

At the risk of putting my head/neck/tail on the line… what military were those people on the boat members of?

In terms of arguing over semantics… is a hostage-taker considered a civilian if he is not in the military?

124 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:20:20pm

re: #110 lawhawk

Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 - Palestinians had every opportunity to make a peaceful break with Israel.

And they chose war. Now, when Israel defends itself from terrorists who operate out of Gaza, you’re complaining.

Again.

Israel occupied Gaza and folks like yourself complained.

Israel withdrew from Gaza and you’re still finding ways to complain about Israel even though it was on the Palestinians to make peace with Israel. They had the opportunity and they chose the more violent terror group to affiliate with and voted for. Now, they’re getting what they wanted - violence and war. Again.

What the hell do you expect? Israel is on a war footing with Gaza. A blockade is an act of war. Israel got war in response. Not surprising.

125 Bagua  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:20:26pm

CRAW is working, they have succeeded in creating a new leak.

126 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:20:26pm

re: #117 jamesfirecat

At the risk of putting my head/neck/tail on the line… what military were those people on the boat members of?

that is the point, Mohammad Atta was a civilian that didn’t make him harmless.

127 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:20:32pm

re: #123 Joo-LiZ

wait, hostages were taken? I missed that.

128 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:20:54pm

re: #116 drcordell

Godwin called, he wants his law back.

Try again, this time with something substantive.

Where exactly am I in err?

129 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:21:22pm

re: #116 drcordell

Godwin called, he wants his law back.

The Strawman called

He DOESN’T want the brain back!

130 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:21:31pm

re: #125 Bagua

CRAW is working, they have succeeded in creating a new leak.

Plug that new hole, daddy.

131 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:21:39pm

re: #127 windsagio

wait, hostages were taken? I missed that.

Nope. Not at all. Just an analogy.

He seemed to be saying, if they weren’t actual military they are civilians. I’m not sure if it is the case, so I came up with an analogy to test the terminology.

132 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:22:03pm

territorial Gaza is Israels concern…security, what and who goes in and out, Hamas policy of violence toward them, including the blockade….the citizens of Gaza fall under the jurisdiction of Hamas proper…not Israels concern…pretty simple…you want peace, lay down your arms…whoever and how much the citizens of Gaza suffer is brought about by Hamas

133 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:22:04pm

re: #116 drcordell

Godwin called, he wants his law back.

Israel call, they don’t need your fucking support.

134 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:22:19pm

re: #124 drcordell

What the hell do you expect? Israel is on a war footing with Gaza. A blockade is an act of war. Israel got war in response. Not surprising.

An act of war? Against which state?

You can’t have it both ways- either the Palestinians are indeed independent of the they are occupied. Which is it? And when did Palestine become a state?

135 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:22:22pm

On Topic: Turkey demands U.S. solidarity in response to Israeli attack

Washington — Turkey’s foreign minister said Tuesday that his government is “not happy” with the U.S. response to Israel’s raid on an aid flotilla carrying humanitarian goods bound for blockaded Gaza.

“We expect full solidarity from the United States,” Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said before a meeting with U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. “We are not happy with the U.S. statement from yesterday.”

Davutoglu called on the United States to condemn the attack, express solidarity with the families of the victims and exert pressure on Israel to free prisoners taken during the raid.

“Israel thinks it’s above the law,” Davutoglu said. He warned that if some countries choose to follow the “rule of the jungle … we know what to do.”

Proper Response to this demand: “Nuts!”

136 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:22:25pm

re: #124 drcordell

What the hell do you expect? Israel is on a war footing with Gaza. A blockade is an act of war. Israel got war in response. Not surprising.

and the 7,000 rocket attacks were not war? please spare us.

137 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:22:28pm

re: #128 researchok

Try again, this time with something substantive.

Where exactly am I in err?

Everything isn’t a Nazi analogy. There was one Hitler. He’s dead. This situation is not anywhere near analogous.

138 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:22:37pm

re: #124 drcordell

What the hell do you expect? Israel is on a war footing with Gaza. A blockade is an act of war. Israel got war in response. Not surprising.

From the Turks??

139 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:22:53pm

re: #133 Walter L. Newton

Israel call, they don’t need your fucking support.

Good let’s stop fucking sending my tax dollars there then.

140 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:22:58pm

re: #124 drcordell

What the hell do you expect? Israel is on a war footing with Gaza. A blockade is an act of war. Israel got war in response. Not surprising.

Blockade was a response to the act of war of having Gilad Shalit kidnapped, after Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip, not just in response to the election.


I just want to say two things:
1) I know this can get really heated
2) I respect you for sticking up for your views, especially outnumbered this badly.

141 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:23:43pm

re: #124 drcordell

What the hell do you expect? Israel is on a war footing with Gaza. A blockade is an act of war. Israel got war in response. Not surprising.

act of war, yes…why so excitable?
Israelis are not gunning down the citizens…Hamas does that

142 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:24:12pm

re: #139 drcordell

Good let’s stop fucking sending my tax dollars there then.

Out of the woodwork… heh… anyone have any questions about Dr. Cordell?

Find a Nazi that you can vote for, make him president of the US, then you will get your wish…

143 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:24:15pm

re: #130 Walter L. Newton

Plug that new hole, daddy.

good one

144 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:24:17pm

re: #123 Joo-LiZ

In terms of arguing over semantics… is a hostage-taker considered a civilian if he is not in the military?

Time to check this out…

thefreedictionary.com

Civilian:

n.
1. A person following the pursuits of civil life, especially one who is not an active member of the military, the police, or a belligerent group.
2. A person who does not belong to a particular group or engage in a particular activity.
3. A specialist in Roman or civil law.
adj.
Of or relating to civilians or civil life; nonmilitary: civilian clothes; a civilian career.

Huh “Belligerent group” didn’t know that was in there.

Objection withdrawn though I still think asking Pap Bear to slam someone’s head on a hard desk is a little much, hasn’t Alan Colmes suffered enough Fox related trauma?

145 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:24:24pm

re: #137 drcordell

Everything isn’t a Nazi analogy. There was one Hitler. He’s dead. This situation is not anywhere near analogous.

True. But in this case the analogy is spot on. Simply asserting otherwise is not enough.

If you have a rebuttal point, make it.

146 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:24:39pm

re: #140 Joo-LiZ

Blockade was a response to the act of war of having Gilad Shalit kidnapped, after Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip, not just in response to the election.

I just want to say two things:
1) I know this can get really heated
2) I respect you for sticking up for your views, especially outnumbered this badly.

Cut me Mickey!
Cut me!

147 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:24:46pm

re: #134 researchok

An act of war? Against which state?

You can’t have it both ways- either the Palestinians are indeed independent of the they are occupied. Which is it? And when did Palestine become a state?

They’re occupied. Nobody is debating that. Occupation = war. We may not be technically “at war” with Iraq anymore. But if you go ask an Iraqi which country they’re at war with, I think you’ll get an answer.

148 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:24:47pm

re: #125 Bagua

CRAW is working, they have succeeded in creating a new leak.

Now what?

Install a tube taking that oil up to a container ship(s)?

149 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:25:01pm

re: #139 drcordell

Don’t le them bait you man. If you get too pissed off you undermine your point.

150 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:25:04pm

re: #117 jamesfirecat

At the risk of putting my head/neck/tail on the line… what military were those people on the boat members of?

Those who attacked were Islamist terrorists. They are unlawful combatants whom Israel will send home but should indefinitely detain.

151 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:25:28pm

re: #139 drcordell

Good let’s stop fucking sending my tax dollars there then.

Are you the guy standing next to the lady in pink?

152 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:25:43pm

re: #149 windsagio

Don’t le them bait you man. If you get too pissed off you undermine your point.

I know… we are FORCING him to be pissed… it’s not his fault. LOL.

153 Bagua  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:25:45pm

Boom, the pipe is cut. The baby leak above the BOP is raging, but it didn’t burst.

154 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:25:45pm

re: #139 drcordell

Good let’s stop fucking sending my tax dollars there then.

fine, as soon as we stop spending tax dollars on illegal immigrants

155 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:25:46pm

re: #142 Walter L. Newton

Out of the woodwork… heh… anyone have any questions about Dr. Cordell?

Find a Nazi that you can vote for, make him president of the US, then you will get your wish…

So, now anyone who doesn’t send billions of dollars in military aid to Israel is equated with the holocaust. Lovely. What ever happened to conservatism in the United States?

156 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:26:01pm

re: #145 researchok

True. But in this case the analogy is spot on. Simply asserting otherwise is not enough.

If you have a rebuttal point, make it.

but ,, but ,, but ,, I called Godwin ,, and ,,like ,, EVERYTHING !!

157 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:26:11pm

re: #147 drcordell

They’re occupied. Nobody is debating that. Occupation = war. We may not be technically “at war” with Iraq anymore. But if you go ask an Iraqi which country they’re at war with, I think you’ll get an answer.

There is actually a very strong debate about that. It’s a different story in Gaza and the West Bank.

After the 2005 withdrawal, you think they were still occupied?

158 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:26:38pm

re: #152 Walter L. Newton

‘let them’. He can control it.

I think some of them really don’t know what they’re doing… I also think you totally do :P

159 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:26:38pm

re: #141 albusteve

act of war, yes…why so excitable?
Israelis are not gunning down the citizens…Hamas does that

124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,441 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

Actually, they both do it.

160 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:26:48pm

re: #154 albusteve

fine, as soon as we stop spending tax dollars on illegal immigrants

or aid to Gaza for that matter

161 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:27:05pm

re: #150 Dark_Falcon

Those who attacked were Islamist terrorists. They are unlawful combatants whom Israel will send home but should indefinitely detain.

See my 144 I thought (mistakenly) that if you’re not part of the military you’re default a civilian meaning that someone could be both a civilian and a terrorists at the time I made that post…

162 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:27:13pm

re: #149 windsagio

Don’t le them bait you man. If you get too pissed off you undermine your point.

good grief….go take your nap

163 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:27:14pm

re: #154 albusteve

fine, as soon as we stop spending tax dollars on illegal immigrants

Right. All that money we’re spending on them. What with the sub-par wages they’re paid to keep our economy running…

164 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:27:25pm

re: #155 drcordell

So, now anyone who doesn’t send billions of dollars in military aid to Israel is equated with the holocaust. Lovely. What ever happened to conservatism in the United States?

Why the fuck are you asking? You wouldn’t know conservatism if you tripped over it.

165 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:27:33pm

re: #155 drcordell

Ludwig didn’t believe me when I said that people who challenged Israel policy were either called anti-semites or nazis.

Where is he now dammit?!

166 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:27:39pm

re: #159 darthstar

124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,441 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

Actually, they both do it.

but one side tries to do it… big difference.

167 Slp253  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:27:39pm

it’s very obvious what was going down here from the start.

Israel warned them ahead of time not to try and break the blockade but they did anyways. They wanted this fight to make Israel look bad, but as more info comes out will those who were quick to condemn Israel be as quick with apologies?


I doubt it.

168 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:27:46pm

re: #147 drcordell

They’re occupied. Nobody is debating that. Occupation = war. We may not be technically “at war” with Iraq anymore. But if you go ask an Iraqi which country they’re at war with, I think you’ll get an answer.

They’d be more likely to say Iran than the US. They may not love us, but they don’t hate us and they know we want them to do well.

169 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:28:00pm

re: #159 darthstar

124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,441 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

Actually, they both do it.

waiting for your links…again

170 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:28:03pm

re: #147 drcordell

They’re occupied. Nobody is debating that. Occupation = war. We may not be technically “at war” with Iraq anymore. But if you go ask an Iraqi which country they’re at war with, I think you’ll get an answer.

There was no act of war.

Further, by every legal standard of measurement, Israel was well within her rights to act preemptively in attempting to ascertain whether or not those ships and or her cargo/passengers posed a threat.

171 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:28:08pm

re: #146 HoosierHoops

Cut me Mickey!
Cut me!

I don’t get the reference.

172 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:28:11pm

re: #163 drcordell

And the payroll taxes we don’t get for them!

173 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:28:12pm

re: #157 Joo-LiZ

There is actually a very strong debate about that. It’s a different story in Gaza and the West Bank.

After the 2005 withdrawal, you think they were still occupied?

A strip of land completely walled off, with no access to any ports or border crossings that aren’t militarily controlled. I’d probably consider that occupied if I lived there.

174 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:28:23pm

re: #166 brookly red

but one side tries to do it… big difference.

And the other is much better at it. No difference. Children are children.

175 Bagua  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:28:32pm

re: #148 sattv4u2

Now what?

Install a tube taking that oil up to a container ship(s)?

They just did the left picture below, next they will do the right picture below.

Image: Riser_Removal_large.jpg

Then they will put the cap on, below.

Image: Containment_Contingency_Option_large.jpg

176 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:28:32pm

re: #124 drcordell

And now you’re confusing cause and effect. Israel withdrew in 2005 - removing so-called obstacles to peace. Terrorists responded with suicide bombings. They saw the concession and withdrawal from Gaza as a sign of weakness of resolve - and attacked. Incessantly.

Israel built checkpoints and a security fence.

The response - more terrorism and thousands of kassam attacks.

That wasn’t because Israel engaged in defense but because Israel exists.

Hamas and the terrorists aren’t going to stop until they get their way - and they will continue this war against Israel until Israel is destroyed or is forced to stop.

The acts of terrorism are acts of war. Hamas says as much. Fatah’s said as much - they are at war with Israel. Israel engages in self-defense and you criticize Israel’s actions, when the situation could be improved by Palestinians refraining from engaging in repeated acts of terrorism that affect and undermine Israel’s security.

You know - there are confidence building measures that have been taken in the past - Palestinians stop terrorism and Israel lessens checkpoints, improves trade flow, etc.

177 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:28:38pm

re: #169 albusteve

waiting for your links…again

ifamericansknew.org

178 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:29:00pm

re: #163 drcordell

Right. All that money we’re spending on them. What with the sub-par wages they’re paid to keep our economy running…

fuck your relativism…money is money

179 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:29:21pm

re: #171 Joo-LiZ

I don’t get the reference.

Rocky ,, Sly Stallone to his trainer when his eye was so swollen shut, “cutting” the skin to release the pressure so Rocky could see

180 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:29:29pm

re: #159 darthstar

124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,441 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

Actually, they both do it.

Israelis do not use their own children as human shields

Hamas does.

181 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:29:35pm

re: #170 researchok

Funny thing, when I was reading that good Civil War book, there was a legal controversy over whether you could enforce a blockade against a state you didn’t recognize, or weren’t officially at war with (since the Union didn’t recognize the Confederacy).

/random memory off.

182 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:29:44pm

re: #158 windsagio

‘let them’. He can control it.

I think some of them really don’t know what they’re doing… I also think you totally do :P

Hey Windy, on this we part ways… from what I gather, Dr. Cordell is an adult, who makes his own fucking bed with his own fucking opinion and I don’t give a fucking damn if it gets too hot in this room for him to deal with his OWN opinions… that says nothing about US, and everything about HIM. Sorry, can’t agree with you.

And I damn well sure know what I am doing… and I’m doing it well.

183 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:30:11pm

re: #49 jamesfirecat

We still make things?

at least one of us does :D

184 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:30:12pm

re: #170 researchok

There was no act of war.

Further, by every legal standard of measurement, Israel was well within her rights to act preemptively in attempting to ascertain whether or not those ships and or her cargo/passengers posed a threat.

A blockade is by definition an act of war.

Blockade: an act of war by which a belligerent prevents access to or departure from a defined part of the enemy’s coasts.

185 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:30:16pm

re: #175 Bagua

They just did the left picture below, next they will do the right picture below.

Image: Riser_Removal_large.jpg

Then they will put the cap on, below.

Image: Containment_Contingency_Option_large.jpg

GO BP!!!

186 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:30:27pm

re: #171 Joo-LiZ

I don’t get the reference.

Rocky…
When Rocky is getting his ass kicked and Mickey begs him not to go back in the ring again ( drcordell)
Just cut me Mickey!
Just cut me…

187 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:30:45pm

*eats popcorn*

188 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:30:58pm

re: #180 Alouette

Israelis do not use their own children as human shields

Hamas does.

save your breath anyone who does not see that does not want to.

189 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:31:02pm

re: #186 HoosierHoops

Rocky…
When Rocky is getting his ass kicked and Mickey begs him not to go back in the ring again ( drcordell)
Just cut me Mickey!
Just cut me…

Adriaan!!!!

190 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:31:07pm

re: #161 jamesfirecat

See my 144 I thought (mistakenly) that if you’re not part of the military you’re default a civilian meaning that someone could be both a civilian and a terrorists at the time I made that post…

I don’t see it that way. Terrorists are illegal combatants, and combatants are not civilians.

191 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:31:25pm

re: #184 drcordell

A blockade is by definition an act of war.

Blockade: an act of war by which a belligerent prevents access to or departure from a defined part of the enemy’s coasts.

Lobbing missiles into your yard is not an act of war?

192 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:31:26pm

re: #182 Walter L. Newton

I am agreeing with you!

It was friendly advice, because he’s hurting his own case :P

And he is, by getting pissed off.

He does have a case too, but if its possible to get it across, its not by being angry.

193 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:31:28pm

re: #147 drcordell

Gaza is not occupied. Period. They haven’t been occupied since 2005.

Those are the facts.

Even the West Bank isn’t truly occupied - Palestinians have civil administrative control over most of the West Bank, and the final status negotiations that eventually occur will deal with territorial control and land swaps - if Oslo is somehow resuscitated.

But to claim that Gaza is occupied is just incorrect - and has been incorrect since 2005.

194 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:31:42pm

re: #184 drcordell

A blockade is by definition an act of war.

Blockade: an act of war by which a belligerent prevents access to or departure from a defined part of the enemy’s coasts.

Blockade: an act of war by which a belligerent prevents access to or departure from a defined part of the enemy’s coasts.

195 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:31:52pm

re: #183 WindUpBird

Actually manufacturing is up again this month!

196 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:31:56pm

re: #178 albusteve

fuck your relativism…money is money

Fuck your ignorance. As a whole illegal immigrants are a net BOON to our economy. Cheap labor. Paying payroll taxes for benefits such as unemployment and SS that they can’t receive. Explain again where the drain is?

197 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:32:09pm

re: #184 drcordell

A blockade is by definition an act of war.

Blockade: an act of war by which a belligerent prevents access to or departure from a defined part of the enemy’s coasts.

No, a state can blockade insurgents in any if her ports. Further, there is no ‘enemy’ state here.

Try again.

198 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:32:23pm

re: #180 Alouette

Israelis do not use their own children as human shields

Hamas does.

But you are using them as an excuse to keep escalating the violence. The kids are simply pawns in this fight. Kill one of mine, I’ll kill ten of yours…

199 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:32:32pm

re: #177 darthstar

[Link: www.ifamericansknew.org…]

How about a non-moonbat link?

200 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:32:32pm

The PLO, Fatah, Hamas, and all the rest of the Palestinians’ “leaders” have been telling their people the same thing since 1948: these Jews are going to be driven into the sea. Vote for us, give us money, join our militias, send your sons, and next year “Palestine” will be ours, and judenrein.

1948: “Abandon your homes so you won’t get shot accidentally. The great forces of the Arabs will crush al-Yahud and you can return next week and add a Jew-home to your own.”

Oops.

1967: “Haifa and Tel Aviv will be ours in 48 hours.”

Oops.

2000: “Throw stones and blow yourselves up with bomb belts, East Jerusalem will soon be free of Jews.”

Oops.

2006: “Elect Hamas, build rockets and shoot them at Sderot, and we shall conquer.”

Oops.

2010: “Collect a bunch of junk and some international idiots, sail for Gaza on a boat named after a dead international idiot, and our day of victory is at hand.”

Oops.

Jews still there, not going anywhere, though the world stamp its feet and turn blue in the face.

201 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:32:36pm

re: #198 darthstar

But you are using them as an excuse to keep escalating the violence. The kids are simply pawns in this fight. Kill one of mine, I’ll kill ten of yours…

Sorry…Israel is, not you personally.

202 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:32:40pm

We need to nuke this thread from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.

203 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:32:47pm

re: #177 darthstar

[Link: www.ifamericansknew.org…]

from wiki…
If Americans Knew argues that United States’ support of Israel should be reduced on the grounds that it is not in its interest[7] — that it interferes with American relations with the oil-producing nations, costs American taxpayers billions, and is increasingly imperiling American lives.
The site’s homepage shows charts comparing the number of children killed from both sides since year 2000, it also shows the number of killed and injured people from both sides.
It concludes that U.S. support of Israel is driven by special-interest lobbying on behalf of a foreign government, specifically via AIPAC, and by the efforts of a “growing number of individuals with close ties to Israel (known as neoconservatives)” in high-level U.S. Government positions.[7]


hardly what I’d call unbiased….really not a good source, these people have an anti-semetic agenda

204 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:32:49pm

re: #196 drcordell

I think they don’t actually pay payroll taxes usually. Am I mistaken? (thinking mainly of farmworkers)

205 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:32:57pm

re: #159 darthstar

124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,441 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

Actually, they both do it.

You are falling for the arithmetic game. It’s not about absolute numbers. It really is about circumstances and intent.

Talking absolute numbers, the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict is one of the least violent in the world (in terms of deaths). There was a comparative study done by Ben Dror Yemini, I dunno if it’s been published, but I saw him give a talk on it live once. It really is peanuts, for all the attention it gets.

206 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:33:04pm

re: #190 Dark_Falcon

I don’t see it that way. Terrorists are illegal combatants, and combatants are not civilians.

I checked the definition of civilian on line and saw that


1. A person following the pursuits of civil life, especially one who is not an active member of the military, the police, or a belligerent group.

The last one is why I now agree with you…

207 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:33:09pm

I’m still curious how one can define Gaza as “occupied”.

208 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:33:51pm

re: #193 lawhawk

Gaza is not occupied. Period. They haven’t been occupied since 2005.

Those are the facts.

Even the West Bank isn’t truly occupied - Palestinians have civil administrative control over most of the West Bank, and the final status negotiations that eventually occur will deal with territorial control and land swaps - if Oslo is somehow resuscitated.

But to claim that Gaza is occupied is just incorrect - and has been incorrect since 2005.

You can call it whatever the hell you want to. The point is, Gaza is still effectively occupied. They have no ability to export goods. They have no ability to maintain their own ports or border crossings. They are occupied. At least own it man.

209 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:34:02pm

re: #200 Cato the Elder

The PLO, Fatah, Hamas, and all the rest of the Palestinians’ “leaders” ….


2006: “Elect Hamas, build rockets and shoot them at Sderot, and we shall conquer.”

I somehow doubt Fatah was telling anyone to vote for Hamas >>

210 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:34:04pm

re: #196 drcordell

Explain again how Gaza is occupied?

211 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:34:09pm

re: #193 lawhawk

Gaza is not occupied. Period. They haven’t been occupied since 2005.

Those are the facts.

Even the West Bank isn’t truly occupied - Palestinians have civil administrative control over most of the West Bank, and the final status negotiations that eventually occur will deal with territorial control and land swaps - if Oslo is somehow resuscitated.

But to claim that Gaza is occupied is just incorrect - and has been incorrect since 2005.

The West Bank is so “occupied” that Jews can’t even visit Bethlehem where Rachel’s tomb resides.

212 abolitionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:34:20pm

re: #118 researchok

If there are Palestinians who really want peace, let them organize, step forward and agree to the 3 fundamental Israeli, American, UN, and Quartet conditions fro peace:

Recognition of Israel
Secure borders
Cessation of violence.

Which one of those is too onerous a burden for the Palestinians?

The first one, of course. Especially for the Palestinians in southern California.

213 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:34:25pm

re: #199 Alouette

How about a non-moonbat link?

guardian.co.uk
eretzyisroel.org
btselem.org

214 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:34:39pm

re: #102 drcordell

My problem is people who can’t wrap their head around the fact that Israel has a huge stake in how the Gaza situation turns out. And their agenda doesn’t exactly jive with that of the Palestinians. And some people can’t possibly fathom that Israel may be acting unilaterally in it’s own interests.

The word you’re groping for is “jibe”.

215 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:34:41pm

re: #195 windsagio

Actually manufacturing is up again this month!

If GM pulls the trigger on the hotrod Buick Regal GS, it’ll be the first lustworthy hot rod Buick since the GNX. :D

216 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:34:42pm

re: #177 darthstar

Although the exact numbers are suspect there are a couple reasons for the unbalanced death toll.
The Fence keeps out suicide bombers and the Palestinian rockets (which they fire pretty much daily) are inaccurate and unreliable.
Although Israel does make an effort to avoid killing children (which the Palestinians do not) the Palestinians use children as human shields, they also launch rockets from civilian buildings including schools and hospitals.
The Palestinians are responsible for the fate of their own children. Israel has more concern for Palestinian children than the Palestinians do.
The Palestinians use their own childrens’ deaths as propaganda.

217 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:34:48pm

re: #184 drcordell

A blockade is by definition an act of war.

Blockade: an act of war by which a belligerent prevents access to or departure from a defined part of the enemy’s coasts.

true but who declared the war? may I refer you to the Hamas Charter?

“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.” (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

218 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:34:55pm

re: #196 drcordell

Fuck your ignorance. As a whole illegal immigrants are a net BOON to our economy. Cheap labor. Paying payroll taxes for benefits such as unemployment and SS that they can’t receive. Explain again where the drain is?

that’s not the point pinhead….blather away but stay on targer

219 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:35:15pm

re: #196 drcordell

Fuck your ignorance. As a whole illegal immigrants are a net BOON to our economy. Cheap labor. Paying payroll taxes for benefits such as unemployment and SS that they can’t receive. Explain again where the drain is?

Infrastucture (energy, food and water supplies ,, what ,, they bring their own for the long haul!?!?)
Student populations
Health Care facilities
Shall we continue!?!?!

220 avanti  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:35:19pm

re: #185 sattv4u2

GO BP!!!

I think they are getting ready with the diamond saw, hope for a clean cut.

221 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:35:21pm

re: #204 windsagio

I think they don’t actually pay payroll taxes usually. Am I mistaken? (thinking mainly of farmworkers)

If you’re an illegal immigrant and want to work almost anywhere, you have to provide some sort of papers. And almost certainly they’re fake. But when your employer cuts you the check, the government doesn’t know that. The business still has to take out all of the payroll taxes.

222 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:35:29pm

re: #215 WindUpBird

Pff you and your muscle cars. Gimme a subcompact convertable, and I’ll be happy.

(yes, I like chick cars. Sue me!)

223 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:35:42pm

re: #198 darthstar

The escalation of violence is what Hamas wants and gets - they purposefully target civilians, and Israel can’t respond to kill terrorists without harming civilians precisely because Hamas and other terror groups know that the world media will play up the civilian body count while discounting the fact that those civilians died because Hamas and the terrorists purposefully put those civilians in harms’ way.

So, Israel faces the worst kind of dilemma - do nothing and face increasing numbers of attacks and its own casualties all while its economy gets harmed, or attack terrorists and take the media hit for civilian casualties incurred while defending itself in a lawful manner under international law.

224 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:35:43pm

re: #216 Killgore Trout


The Palestinians use their own childrens’ deaths as propaganda.


They both do…see “pizza” reference upthread.

225 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:35:51pm

re: #198 darthstar

But you are using them as an excuse to keep escalating the violence. The kids are simply pawns in this fight. Kill one of mine, I’ll kill ten of yours…

That is a very simplistic view.

Let’s reverse roles here, how about this time you fill in the blank. What should they do…

“Kill one of mine, I’ll …”

226 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:35:57pm

re: #184 drcordell

A blockade is by definition an act of war.

Blockade: an act of war by which a belligerent prevents access to or departure from a defined part of the enemy’s coasts.

One proclaimed after Hamas had engaged in numerous prior acts of war. These include attacking Israeli army patrols, carrying out suicide attacks against entirely civilian targets, and firing rockets against civilian targets. Israel did not start the war.

227 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:36:00pm

re: #222 windsagio

Pff you and your muscle cars. Gimme a subcompact convertable, and I’ll be happy.

(yes, I like chick cars. Sue me!)

Miata is not a chick car! It’s a driver’s car!

228 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:36:21pm

re: #210 Walter L. Newton

Explain again how Gaza is occupied?

Explain how it’s not? They can’t import or export any goods. They don’t control any of their own border crossings. Their only port is blockaded by the Israeli navy.

229 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:36:22pm

re: #227 WindUpBird

I’d totally take one of those convertables the lesbian chick drove in goldfinger too tho’ >>

230 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:36:27pm

re: #213 darthstar

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk…]
[Link: www.eretzyisroel.org…]
[Link: www.btselem.org…]

The middle link says the opposite of what you want it to say, which just shows me that you’re desperately Googling without actually reading the sources.

Oh and, Guardian and Btselem are moonbat sources. But you know that.

231 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:36:44pm

re: #225 Joo-LiZ

I think the real difference here, to be frank, is in your own prejudices.

232 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:36:59pm

re: #177 darthstar

[Link: www.ifamericansknew.org…]

Wow. Dude.

If you’re getting your information about the Middle East from Alison Weir’s raving anti-Israel website, no wonder you seem so confused about basic issues.

Seriously. You need to check that source. This is not information — it’s propaganda. Stunningly biased propaganda.

233 ryannon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:37:02pm

re: #77 sattv4u2

Didn’t the “people” vote Hamas in?

They were jumping with joy at the idea. Some of them even off rooftops.

234 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:37:10pm

re: #221 drcordell

Occupied, blockaded, surrounded by people who they don’t like very much… it’s all the same, they want to fucking get rid of all they Jews…

Agree?

235 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:37:12pm

re: #208 drcordell

You can call it whatever the hell you want to. The point is, Gaza is still effectively occupied. They have no ability to export goods. They have no ability to maintain their own ports or border crossings. They are occupied. At least own it man.

they have both of those abilities and I’m sure Israel would welcome some new endeavor besides exporting murder….where’s Gilad Shalid btw…the are absolutely not occupied no matter how much you wish they were….where’s Gilad?

236 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:37:20pm

re: #230 Alouette

The middle link says the opposite of what you want it to say, which just shows me that you’re desperately Googling without actually reading the sources.

Oh and, Guardian and Btselem are moonbat sources. But you know that.

Image: Graph1_22.gif

237 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:37:27pm

re: #208 drcordell

You cannot make up your own damned facts. Under international law - Gaza is not occupied. Period.

Own up to the fact that you’re pushing a line of thought about Gaza and the terrorists who run the show in Gaza that simply doesn’t pass the smell test.

238 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:37:45pm

re: #198 darthstar

But you are using them as an excuse to keep escalating the violence. The kids are simply pawns in this fight. Kill one of mine, I’ll kill ten of yours…

Israel does not set out to kill children. Hamas does.

239 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:37:50pm

re: #233 ryannon

They were jumping with joy at the idea. Some of them even off rooftops.

“With a little help, from my freinds”

240 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:38:02pm

re: #225 Joo-LiZ

That is a very simplistic view.

Let’s reverse roles here, how about this time you fill in the blank. What should they do…

“Kill one of mine, I’ll …”

Track you down and kill you rather than someone at random associated with you.

241 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:38:04pm

re: #223 lawhawk

The escalation of violence is what Hamas wants and gets - they purposefully target civilians, and Israel can’t respond to kill terrorists without harming civilians precisely because Hamas and other terror groups know that the world media will play up the civilian body count while discounting the fact that those civilians died because Hamas and the terrorists purposefully put those civilians in harms’ way.

So, Israel faces the worst kind of dilemma - do nothing and face increasing numbers of attacks and its own casualties all while its economy gets harmed, or attack terrorists and take the media hit for civilian casualties incurred while defending itself in a lawful manner under international law.

I feel that argument is getting stale. It doesn’t get across the more fundamental point, that while yes civilians die, Israel doesn’t just kill them and justify it by saying they were used as Human Shields.

Israel actually goes to extreme measures to separate combatants from civilians and has succeeded in creating incredibly low civilian casualty counts.

Just saying “Hamas uses human shields, so Israel kills those shields” doesn’t get the right point across.

242 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:38:39pm

re: #226 Dark_Falcon

One proclaimed after Hamas had engaged in numerous prior acts of war. These include attacking Israeli army patrols, carrying out suicide attacks against entirely civilian targets, and firing rockets against civilian targets. Israel did not start the war.

Not saying they didn’t. But I’m saying Israel needs to shit or get off the pot here. Pardon the crude analogy. But the point is, Israel keeps prosecuting this like it’s a war, while insisting it’s not. They need to either invade for real, or cut bait. Either annex all of Palestine and fold it into Israel, or make it an independent state.

This limbo they’re in right now with an effective apartheid state is simply alienating Israel’s international allies. And it’s only going to get worse if things continue as they have been.

243 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:38:56pm

re: #224 darthstar

They both do…see “pizza” reference upthread.

You think that the Israelis deliberately caused the attack on Sbarro’s pizza parlor in order to use it for propaganda purposes?

Put. Down. The. Crack. Pipe.

244 Bagua  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:38:59pm

re: #213 darthstar

Ha, she asked for non-moonbat sites and you post B’Tselem and al-Guardian.

My head hurts.

245 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:39:00pm

re: #232 Charles

Wow. Dude.

If you’re getting your information about the Middle East from Alison Weir’s raving anti-Israel website, no wonder you seem so confused about basic issues.

Seriously. You need to check that source. This is not information — it’s propaganda. Stunningly biased propaganda.

dammit ,, you made me go look

Now I need to get sandblasted!

246 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:39:12pm

re: #232 Charles

Wow. Dude.

If you’re getting your information about the Middle East from Alison Weir’s raving anti-Israel website, no wonder you seem so confused about basic issues.

Seriously. You need to check that source. This is not information — it’s propaganda. Stunningly biased propaganda.

Alright, I’ll leave the facts to jpost, haaretz, ynet, etc. They’re fair and balanced. Seriously, I think all the deaths (on both sides) are tragic, and neither should be minimized.

247 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:39:40pm

re: #237 lawhawk

And Hamas had the opportunity for open borders with Israel but engaged in war with Israel more times than I can count - so Israel did what it had to do to protect its own citizens from further attack and to prevent Hamas from rearming. Hamas still has the power to open up its borders and reopen its ports to business - if it stops its war against Israel.

It will not - because the war isn’t merely about Gaza and Gazan territory but because Israel exists.

248 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:39:41pm

re: #242 drcordell


This limbo they’re in right now with an effective apartheid state is simply alienating Israel’s international allies.

Hey! There’s that line again!

249 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:39:54pm

re: #243 Alouette

You think that the Israelis deliberately caused the attack on Sbarro’s pizza parlor in order to use it for propaganda purposes?

Put. Down. The. Crack. Pipe.

No, I said nothing of the sort.

250 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:40:09pm

re: #242 drcordell

Not saying they didn’t. But I’m saying Israel needs to shit or get off the pot here. Pardon the crude analogy. But the point is, Israel keeps prosecuting this like it’s a war, while insisting it’s not. They need to either invade for real, or cut bait. Either annex all of Palestine and fold it into Israel, or make it an independent state.

This limbo they’re in right now with an effective apartheid state is simply alienating Israel’s international allies. And it’s only going to get worse if things continue as they have been.

Jimmy Carter… is that you?

251 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:40:21pm

re: #236 darthstar

Image: Graph1_22.gif

Why don’t you read the entire page you linked to instead of linking graphics without context?

252 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:40:23pm

re: #242 drcordell

Not saying they didn’t. But I’m saying Israel needs to shit or get off the pot here. Pardon the crude analogy. But the point is, Israel keeps prosecuting this like it’s a war, while insisting it’s not. They need to either invade for real, or cut bait. Either annex all of Palestine and fold it into Israel, or make it an independent state.

Completely agree.

The pressure from the international community has put Israel in a situation where they seem to be half-assing every decision they make.

They just haven’t been going after the real head honchos veraciously enough.

253 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:40:23pm

re: #215 WindUpBird

Is that anything like a Hot Rod Lincoln?

254 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:40:43pm

re: #242 drcordell

No.

The Palestinians need to recognize they LOST the war. Several fucking times. They LOST. Get over it.

255 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:41:03pm

re: #228 drcordell

Explain how it’s not? They can’t import or export any goods. They don’t control any of their own border crossings. Their only port is blockaded by the Israeli navy.

they certainly do…you are a dunce if you cannot see how Fatah and Hamas only hurt their own citizens….stop the violence, retract the murderous charter and presto!….import/export, freedom of movement….it’s not Israels fault these Arabs decided to move in next door when Jordan tossed them out

256 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:41:08pm

re: #238 Dark_Falcon

Israel does not set out to kill children. Hamas does.

If your child was burned to death by a white phosphorus shell, would you really care if it were intentional or not? Intentions don’t really matter when you’re talking life or death. A grieving mother is a grieving mother.

257 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:42:18pm

re: #232 Charles

Wow. Dude.

If you’re getting your information about the Middle East from Alison Weir’s raving anti-Israel website, no wonder you seem so confused about basic issues.

Seriously. You need to check that source. This is not information — it’s propaganda. Stunningly biased propaganda.

dammit ,, you made me go look

Now I need to get sandblasted!

258 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:42:45pm

re: #257 sattv4u2
oooppssss

sorry for the double whammy

259 Bagua  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:43:03pm

re: #220 avanti

I think they are getting ready with the diamond saw, hope for a clean cut.

That is the yellow CUT diamond wire saw, DSAW, grasping the BOP at the flange.

We are going to see the full flow after this cut.

260 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:43:03pm

re: #254 Racer X

No.

The Palestinians need to recognize they LOST the war. Several fucking times. They LOST. Get over it.

I am over it. Israel is the one with the huge fucking problem in their backyard, not me. I’m merely concerned with it because I don’t want to see Israel become an international pariah over their handling of the situation. Not to mention the fact that the U.S. is inexorably linked to the situation because of how much foreign aid we give Israel.

261 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:43:20pm

re: #254 Racer X

No.

The Palestinians need to recognize they LOST the war. Several fucking times. They LOST. Get over it.

too bad that is not true, the war goes on and there are oh so many that support them either out of ignorance or hate but it ain’t over no not even close.

262 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:43:21pm

re: #251 Alouette

Why don’t you read the entire page you linked to instead of linking graphics without context?

But such numbers hide as much as they reveal: They lump combatants in with noncombatants, suicide bombers with innocent civilians, and report Palestinian “collaborators” murdered by their own compatriots as if they had been killed by Israel.

Correcting for such distortions, we can arrive at a figure of 617 Palestinian noncombatants killed by Israel, compared to 471 Israeli noncombatants killed by Palestinians (see Graph 1.2). While Israelis account for 27 percent of the total fatalities as generally reported, they represent 43 percent of these noncombatant victims.

There are a number of valid ways of arriving at such corrected figures to compare the extent to which each side has been responsible for the killing of noncombatants; they all show a much more balanced picture of the conflict than the raw totals do.

263 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:43:32pm

re: #256 drcordell

If your child was burned to death by a white phosphorus shell, would you really care if it were intentional or not? Intentions don’t really matter when you’re talking life or death. A grieving mother is a grieving mother.

Then tell those mothers to tell their OLDER sons to stop lobbing rockets into Israel!

264 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:43:40pm

re: #255 albusteve

they certainly do…you are a dunce if you cannot see how Fatah and Hamas only hurt their own citizens…stop the violence, retract the murderous charter and presto!…import/export, freedom of movement…it’s not Israels fault these Arabs decided to move in next door when Jordan tossed them out

Explain to me exactly how Gazans can freely import or export anything?

265 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:43:57pm

re: #253 Mad Al-Jaffee

ahhh great song :D

The Reverend Horton Heat did that song at warp speed when I saw them in…1999, I think?

Sadly, there really are no new hot rod Lincolns. All flabby crossovers and SUVs. Cadillac on the other hand, has the 550HP CTS-V. o_o Which goes beyond hotrod and is firmly in “the car you will die in” territory…

266 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:44:06pm

re: #260 drcordell

Ah. So you are concerned for Israel. Got it.

267 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:44:27pm

re: #256 drcordell

If your child was burned to death by a white phosphorus shell, would you really care if it were intentional or not? Intentions don’t really matter when you’re talking life or death. A grieving mother is a grieving mother.

a stupid grieving mother that has no clue how or why her child died….these are the people Israel has to work with….I’m not impressed

268 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:44:31pm

Okay, I’m running late…gotta go.

269 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:44:32pm

re: #256 drcordell

If your child was burned to death by a white phosphorus shell, would you really care if it were intentional or not? Intentions don’t really matter when you’re talking life or death. A grieving mother is a grieving mother.

tell it to those that target schools & school buses *spit*

270 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:44:35pm

re: #264 drcordell

Explain to me exactly how Gazans can freely import or export anything?

They freely export rockets into Sderot and Ashkelon.

271 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:44:39pm

re: #242 drcordell

Not saying they didn’t. But I’m saying Israel needs to shit or get off the pot here. Pardon the crude analogy. But the point is, Israel keeps prosecuting this like it’s a war, while insisting it’s not. They need to either invade for real, or cut bait. Either annex all of Palestine and fold it into Israel, or make it an independent state.

This limbo they’re in right now with an effective apartheid state is simply alienating Israel’s international allies. And it’s only going to get worse if things continue as they have been.

Idiotic.

These are the conditions for peace, agreed to by the UN, US, Israel, and the Quartet:

Recognition of Israel
Secure borders
Cessation of violence

If the Palestinians would agree to that, the floopdagtes of aid would open up.

It is clear that when there is a choice between statehood and killing Jews, the Palestinians prefer the latter option.

272 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:45:15pm

re: #260 drcordell

I am over it. Israel is the one with the huge fucking problem in their backyard, not me. I’m merely concerned with it because I don’t want to see Israel become an international pariah over their handling of the situation. Not to mention the fact that the U.S. is inexorably linked to the situation because of how much foreign aid we give Israel.


Do you really believe America is inexorably linked to Israel because of Money?

273 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:45:30pm

re: #260 drcordell

I am over it. Israel is the one with the huge fucking problem in their backyard, not me. I’m merely concerned with it because I don’t want to see Israel become an international pariah over their handling of the situation. Not to mention the fact that the U.S. is inexorably linked to the situation because of how much foreign aid we give Israel.

so what do propose Israel do about the Pali question….quit bitching and get creative here

274 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:46:00pm

re: #242 drcordell

Not saying they didn’t. But I’m saying Israel needs to shit or get off the pot here. Pardon the crude analogy. But the point is, Israel keeps prosecuting this like it’s a war, while insisting it’s not. They need to either invade for real, or cut bait. Either annex all of Palestine and fold it into Israel, or make it an independent state.

This limbo they’re in right now with an effective apartheid state is simply alienating Israel’s international allies. And it’s only going to get worse if things continue as they have been.

Israel can’t do either of the things you propose: To annex Gaza would place them in control of a million Arabs who hate them. They cannot make Gaza independent because Gaza would continue to attack them, since Hamas is a death cult bent on Israel’s destruction.

275 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:46:03pm

re: #264 drcordell

Explain to me exactly how Gazans can freely import or export anything?

once they put down arms…don’t be dense

276 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:46:04pm

re: #272 HoosierHoops

Do you really believe America is inexorably linked to Israel because of Money?

Duh. The Joos control all the banks.

277 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:46:06pm

re: #263 sattv4u2

Then tell those mothers to tell their OLDER sons to stop lobbing rockets into Israel!

Easier said than done my friend. Killing only begets more killing. I’d love to sit here and play armchair quarterback, but that’s not how it works. If I were someone whose brother had been killed, I couldn’t tell you how I’d react.

278 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:46:23pm

re: #272 HoosierHoops

The US is linked not because of the money, but because it supports Israel’s right to exist as a sovereign state.

279 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:46:43pm

re: #256 drcordell

If your child was burned to death by a white phosphorus shell, would you really care if it were intentional or not? Intentions don’t really matter when you’re talking life or death. A grieving mother is a grieving mother.

Hamas TV: Bombs are more precious than children

280 Bagua  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:46:45pm

re: #232 Charles

Wow. Dude.

If you’re getting your information about the Middle East from Alison Weir’s raving anti-Israel website, no wonder you seem so confused about basic issues.

Seriously. You need to check that source. This is not information — it’s propaganda. Stunningly biased propaganda.

Busted.

re: #268 darthstar

Okay, I’m running late…gotta go.

Lol.

281 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:47:22pm

re: #242 drcordell

Not saying they didn’t. But I’m saying Israel needs to shit or get off the pot here. Pardon the crude analogy. But the point is, Israel keeps prosecuting this like it’s a war, while insisting it’s not. They need to either invade for real, or cut bait. Either annex all of Palestine and fold it into Israel, or make it an independent state.

This limbo they’re in right now with an effective apartheid state is simply alienating Israel’s international allies. And it’s only going to get worse if things continue as they have been.

First of all, why didn’t Arafat except the treaty in 2000 that gave them everything they wanted? They could have had their own country ten times over. You can’t GIVE THEM a country. And Israel can’t kill them! Are you crazy? Bomb the place? So very humane.

You can’t possibly be this ignorant. These people are run under a dictatorship. A dictatorship has to have a common enemy that is oppressing them. In this case, Israel first and the U.S. second. Then they can divert attention from their own immorality. It’s why they don’t build schools, industry, homes and spend all their money on weapons. Arafat could never accept the agreement because he would lose his power if his people were FREE. The last thing he wanted or any of them want is peace with Israel. They lose their power and their millions from UNRWA.

Nothing has changed where that is concerned. Refugee status pays big time.

282 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:47:49pm

The problem? A lot of people on the wrong side of this want to be killed. Or, more specifically, martyred. And they’re going to keep firing rockets until they get what they want.

283 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:48:06pm

re: #277 drcordell

Easier said than done my friend. Killing only begets more killing. I’d love to sit here and play armchair quarterback, but that’s not how it works. If I were someone whose brother had been killed, I couldn’t tell you how I’d react.


bullshit, that’s exactly what you’ve been going, and not too well either

284 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:48:47pm

re: #277 drcordell

Easier said than done my friend. Killing only begets more killing. I’d love to sit here and play armchair quarterback, but that’s not how it works. If I were someone whose brother had been killed, I couldn’t tell you how I’d react.

We’re seeing exactly how you are “reacting”!

Lets get down to basics

Is there a clause in the Israeli charter or constitution that calls for the elimination of ANY state, group or sub-group?

Is there a clause in Hamas’s charter that calls for the elimination of ANY state, group or sub-group?

285 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:49:08pm

re: #277 drcordell

Easier said than done my friend. Killing only begets more killing. I’d love to sit here and play armchair quarterback, but that’s not how it works. If I were someone whose brother had been killed, I couldn’t tell you how I’d react.

The only reason the killing goes on is because of Israeli restraint.

Wars end when the cost of waging war becomes too high.

Abba Eban:

Men and nations behave wisely when they have exhausted all other options.

286 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:49:24pm

re: #273 albusteve

so what do propose Israel do about the Pali question…quit bitching and get creative here

You act like its an easy question. No, I don’t have the million dollar answer. But I sure as fuck know what not to do. Don’t shell urban populations with white phosphorus. Don’t launch commando raids on ships full of crazy activists. Don’t continue allowing right-wing settlers to define your governments agenda.

287 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:49:55pm

re: #284 sattv4u2

We’re seeing exactly how you are “reacting”!

Lets get down to basics

Is there a clause in the Israeli charter or constitution that calls for the elimination of ANY state, group or sub-group?

Is there a clause in Hamas’s charter that calls for the elimination of ANY state, group or sub-group?

I for one am done with it, there is no point.

288 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:49:57pm
289 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:50:08pm

re: #281 marjoriemoon

First of all, why didn’t Arafat except the treaty in 2000 that gave them everything they wanted? They could have had their own country ten times over. You can’t GIVE THEM a country. And Israel can’t kill them! Are you crazy? Bomb the place? So very humane.

You can’t possibly be this ignorant. These people are run under a dictatorship. A dictatorship has to have a common enemy that is oppressing them. In this case, Israel first and the U.S. second. Then they can divert attention from their own immorality. It’s why they don’t build schools, industry, homes and spend all their money on weapons. Arafat could never accept the agreement because he would lose his power if his people were FREE. The last thing he wanted or any of them want is peace with Israel. They lose their power and their millions from UNRWA.

Nothing has changed where that is concerned. Refugee status pays big time.

Exactly!

The Palestinians could take all of the foreign aid they receive and channel it into turning Gaza into a Mediterranean resort paradise. Israel would gladly help.

290 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:50:15pm

re: #209 windsagio

I somehow doubt Fatah was telling anyone to vote for Hamas >>

I somehow doubt your reading comprehension skills will ever get better.

291 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:50:48pm

re: #290 Cato the Elder

<3

292 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:50:52pm

re: #287 brookly red

I for one am done with it, there is no point.

heh,,, I have a hard head and a soft pillow to bang it on

293 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:51:26pm

re: #288 windsagio

hhee to respond to myself, I just noticed the persons comment on the video they did…

The video is a VLog of my thoughts on the illuminati.

Nutty!

294 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:52:08pm

re: #286 drcordell

You act like its an easy question. No, I don’t have the million dollar answer. But I sure as fuck know what not to do. Don’t shell urban populations with white phosphorus. Don’t launch commando raids on ships full of crazy activists. Don’t continue allowing right-wing settlers to define your governments agenda.

too bad, that’s how it works and you are clearly on the losing side…I notice you do not mention Serdot in your backpedal….you seem to think Israel should be doiung more than they are to curb violence and lay most of it at their feet….you suck, you are just another brainwashed drooler…you have no clue but your towering liberal victim gig….fuck off

295 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:52:18pm

re: #281 marjoriemoon

I think their points are more that “Yes the governments suck, but the people are the victims of the PA and Hamas… Why does Israel also have to harm the people?”

I think it’s a valid point on the one hand, but on the other Israel doesn’t have much choice. How do you differentiate between those who want peace and those who don’t? Especially when those who want peace are silent or killed.

296 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:52:26pm

re: #286 drcordell

You act like its an easy question. No, I don’t have the million dollar answer. But I sure as fuck know what not to do. Don’t shell urban populations with white phosphorus. Don’t launch commando raids on ships full of crazy activists. Don’t continue allowing right-wing settlers to define your governments agenda.

How come you never include “don’t send suicide bombers into cafes and schoolbuses” or “don’t fire rockets at random into civilian areas” in your list of things that should be done?

297 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:52:33pm

re: #282 JasonA

Continuing down that line of thought… you know what the Palestinians need? To find some value in their own goddamn lives. No flotilla can bring them that.

298 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:52:58pm

re: #297 JasonA

Gah, Monlithic Palestinians again!

C’mon >>

299 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:53:02pm

re: #277 drcordell

Easier said than done my friend. Killing only begets more killing. I’d love to sit here and play armchair quarterback, but that’s not how it works. If I were someone whose brother had been killed, I couldn’t tell you how I’d react.

Ah, the Cycle of Violence Argument. It founders on the following: Arabs attack Israel, Israel defends itself, Israel then attempts to reach out to the Arabs and make peace instead of seeking revenge, the Arabs reply by launching more attacks till Israel has to defend itself again. Any cycle here is drive by Arab hate and butthurt.

300 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:53:08pm

re: #297 JasonA

Continuing down that line of thought… you know what the Palestinians need? To find some value in their own goddamn lives. No flotilla can bring them that.

Maybe some art therapy will fix the problem!

301 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:53:48pm

re: #272 HoosierHoops

Do you really believe America is inexorably linked to Israel because of Money?

It couldn’t possibly be our support of Israel is due to shared and common values!

I mean, don’t we have much more in common with oppressive, repressive, authoritarian and bigoted regimes?

//

302 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:53:51pm

re: #296 Charles

How come you never include “don’t send suicide bombers into cafes and schoolbuses” or “don’t fire rockets at random into civilian areas” in your list of things that should be done?

Because THOSE are atrocities

The others are just an oppressed peoples lashing back with what primitive means they have !

303 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:54:03pm

re: #286 drcordell

You act like its an easy question. No, I don’t have the million dollar answer. But I sure as fuck know what not to do. Don’t shell urban populations with white phosphorus. Don’t launch commando raids on ships full of crazy activists. Don’t continue allowing right-wing settlers to define your governments agenda.

All of these actions have tactical reasons behind them.

Point a) would leave your troops exposed
Point b) would open a weapons lane to a group dedicated to killing you
Point c) is a statement that lumps many things into one.

304 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:54:06pm

re: #298 windsagio

Gah, Monlithic Palestinians again!

C’mon >>

You know damn well which ones I’m talking about.

305 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:54:37pm

re: #296 Charles

How come you never include “don’t send suicide bombers into cafes and schoolbuses” or “don’t fire rockets at random into civilian areas” in your list of things that should be done?

I always found dressing your baby in a suicide belt and posting it on the Internet a nice touch..

306 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:54:52pm

re: #300 jamesfirecat

Maybe some art therapy will fix the problem!

again the Hamas charter:

“There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”

307 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:54:59pm

re: #296 Charles

re: #302 sattv4u2

Because THOSE are atrocities

The others are just an oppressed peoples lashing back with what primitive means they have !

vice/ versa, btw

Sorry , seeing red here

308 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:55:06pm

re: #289 Racer X

Exactly!

The Palestinians could take all of the foreign aid they receive and channel it into turning Gaza into a Mediterranean resort paradise. Israel would gladly help.

They can’t now, but they should could have. When they were given back Gaza is when it should have happened.

309 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:55:12pm

re: #304 JasonA

Be clear then. That kind of language (on all sides) is part of what has gotten us to this impasse. Far too many people really do think of it that way.

You and I don’t have much impact, but there’s principles, and clarity of thinking involved.

310 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:55:20pm

re: #305 HoosierHoops

I always found dressing your baby in a suicide belt and posting it on the Internet a nice touch..

Sends a nice message of “my genetic line ends here!”

311 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:55:35pm

re: #296 Charles

How come you never include “don’t send suicide bombers into cafes and schoolbuses” or “don’t fire rockets at random into civilian areas” in your list of things that should be done?

Because he thinks those are a natural response to Israeli actions.

Cause-effect in reverse.

312 ryannon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:55:51pm

re: #120 avanti

Cutting the riser pipe now, lots of oil flowing out.

BP.

Hope they succeed and stop it!

313 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:56:05pm

re: #311 Joo-LiZ

I’d imagine that it’s assumed that’s a no-no.

314 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:56:21pm

re: #309 windsagio

No, it isn’t all million+ Palestinians who think like that. It also isn’t just two.

315 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:56:34pm

re: #305 HoosierHoops

I always found dressing your baby in a suicide belt and posting it on the Internet a nice touch..

It’s what all the cool kids are wearing nowadays

Years ago, it was WeeBoks

Today,., WeeBombs

316 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:56:45pm

re: #286 drcordell

You act like its an easy question. No, I don’t have the million dollar answer. But I sure as fuck know what not to do. Don’t shell urban populations with white phosphorus. Don’t launch commando raids on ships full of crazy activists. Don’t continue allowing right-wing settlers to define your governments agenda.

Let’s try this again:

These are the conditions for peace, agreed to by the UN, US, Israel, and the Quartet:

*Recognition of Israel
*Secure borders
*Cessation of violence

If the Palestinians would agree to that, the floodgates of world aid would open up. The Palestinians would have what they say they want.

It is clear that when there is a choice between statehood and killing Jews, the Palestinians prefer the latter option.

317 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:56:47pm

Cordell, Darthstar, Windsagio: The Three Stooges of moonbat world history and politics on LGF.

And Olsonist is their straight man.

318 solomonpanting  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:56:49pm
“The cargo ships were loaded haphazardly, with all of the equipment mixed up in the large holds. Ships loaded in this way would not be accepted in any port. We are loading the equipment on the trucks far more carefully than it was loaded on to the ships,” he said.


“Dammit, Jim. I’m a peace activist, not a longshoreman.”

319 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:56:57pm

re: #313 windsagio

I’d imagine that it’s assumed that’s a no-no.

too many pronouns… you imagine what’s a no-no?

320 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:57:06pm

On a sidenote, its not my blog, but I’d freaking pay good money for a ‘flotilla post moratorium’.

We’ve been recycling the same fight for 2 days straight now.

321 Stanley Sea  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:57:43pm

re: #309 windsagio

Be clear then. That kind of language (on all sides) is part of what has gotten us to this impasse. Far too many people really do think of it that way.

You and I don’t have much impact, but there’s principles, and clarity of thinking involved.

DING

322 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:57:44pm

re: #319 Joo-LiZ

‘it goes without saying that he’s against suicide bombing’. I think for any of us its a given.

323 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:57:45pm

re: #317 Cato the Elder

Fuck… am I shifting to the Right or something?

324 abolitionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:57:55pm

re: #279 Alouette

Hamas TV: Bombs are more precious than children


[Video]

I think we’re looking at the Palestinians primary export here. Apparently it’s profitable to some people in positions of power and influence.

325 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:57:59pm

re: #320 windsagio

On a sidenote, its not my blog, but I’d freaking pay good money for a ‘flotilla post moratorium’.

We’ve been recycling the same fight for 2 days straight now.

You always have the option of , oh, I dunno ,,NOT participating!

326 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:58:12pm

re: #320 windsagio

Well, it’s a pretty flippin’ big deal.

327 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:58:13pm

re: #323 JasonA

Fuck… am I shifting to the Right or something?

live and learn.

328 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:58:16pm

re: #317 Cato the Elder

Cordell, Darthstar, Windsagio: The Three Stooges of moonbat world history and politics on LGF.

And Olsonist is their straight man.

agreed, buts it’s good to know where the shit piles are

329 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:58:18pm

re: #323 JasonA

na, most of the leftists on LGF are heavily pro-israel as well. its the final frontier!

330 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:58:25pm

re: #320 windsagio

We’ve been recycling the same fight for 2 days 62 YEARS straight now.

/fixed.

331 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:58:47pm

re: #322 windsagio

‘it goes without saying that he’s against suicide bombing’. I think for any of us its a given.

Serious suggestion here. You could start up your own page and invite people to talk about something else. Not being snarky at all.

332 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:58:49pm

re: #325 sattv4u2

like that’d stop it >>

333 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:59:06pm

re: #320 windsagio

On a sidenote, its not my blog, but I’d freaking pay good money for a ‘flotilla post moratorium’.

We’ve been recycling the same fight for 2 days straight now.

log off…it’s the way it’s always been

334 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:59:06pm

re: #320 windsagio

On a sidenote, its not my blog, but I’d freaking pay good money for a ‘flotilla post moratorium’.

We’ve been recycling the same fight for 2 days straight now.

Heh. Imagine how Israelis/Palestinians feel after 62 years :pre: #322 windsagio

‘it goes without saying that he’s against suicide bombing’. I think for any of us its a given.

It may be a ‘given’ but it must be factored into the equation. Israel is not acting in a vacuum, and the cause of the suicide bombings or other terror attacks is actually very relevant to what actions one thinks Israel should take.

335 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:59:11pm

re: #331 JasonA

oh I know; nobody would go there tho’ ;)

336 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:59:37pm

re: #284 sattv4u2

We’re seeing exactly how you are “reacting”!

Lets get down to basics

Is there a clause in the Israeli charter or constitution that calls for the elimination of ANY state, group or sub-group?

Is there a clause in Hamas’s charter that calls for the elimination of ANY state, group or sub-group?


re: #296 Charles

How come you never include “don’t send suicide bombers into cafes and schoolbuses” or “don’t fire rockets at random into civilian areas” in your list of things that should be done?

Well, for one because it’s a given. But aside from this, because I believe that the solution to this clusterfuck has to stem from Israel. They are the ones holding all of the cards. Israel is in charge, and they have to be proactive about resolving the situation because it’s their nation at stake here. And the present situation of quasi-apartheid, whatever you want to call it, is unsustainable.

Because if Israel keeps control of the contested areas, the international push is going to be to allow naturalization of the Palestinian/arab populations into Israel. Thus jeopardizing Israel’s fundamentally Jewish nature. So finding out a way to cut the Palestinians loose without giving them rights as Israeli citizens should be pretty high on the priorities list.

337 Soap_Man  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:59:43pm

re: #286 drcordell

You act like its an easy question. No, I don’t have the million dollar answer. But I sure as fuck know what not to do. Don’t shell urban populations with white phosphorus. Don’t launch commando raids on ships full of crazy activists. Don’t continue allowing right-wing settlers to define your governments agenda.

Lecturing people on what they shouldn’t do in complex situations is the easy part.

Coming up with solutions for said complex solutions is what is difficult.

338 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 5:59:50pm

re: #335 windsagio

oh I know; nobody would go there tho’ ;)

Eggzactly.

Now go play Dwarf Fortress or something.

339 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:00:10pm

re: #334 Joo-LiZ

Of course it’s relevant, but saying ‘why don’t you ever condemn suicide bombings’ is kinda… off to me (at risk of insulting our host).

340 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:00:29pm

re: #323 JasonA

Fuck… am I shifting to the Right or something?

THAT was funny!

341 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:00:31pm

re: #331 JasonA

Serious suggestion here. You could start up your own page and invite people to talk about something else. Not being snarky at all.

because there is no attention to be had…better to hang out here and make an ass of yourself

342 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:00:32pm

re: #338 JasonA

Believe you me I am!

343 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:00:43pm

re: #338 JasonA

Eggzactly.

Now go play Dwarf Fortress or something.

more like Elf Blockade…

344 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:00:51pm

re: #336 drcordell

You never listen to anyone do you?

345 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:00:58pm

re: #328 albusteve

agreed, buts it’s good to know where the shit piles are

Calling people “shit piles” isn’t wise. It’s a quick way to start a flame war, and it gives Cordell reason to say we’re just a bunch of hotheads.

346 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:01:09pm

re: #316 researchok

Let’s try this again:

These are the conditions for peace, agreed to by the UN, US, Israel, and the Quartet:

*Recognition of Israel
*Secure borders
*Cessation of violence

If the Palestinians would agree to that, the floodgates of world aid would open up. The Palestinians would have what they say they want.

It is clear that when there is a choice between statehood and killing Jews, the Palestinians prefer the latter option.

Yes, because they are all monolithic in thought. No dissent whatsoever. They all think alike.

347 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:01:23pm

re: #343 brookly red

I’ve had the elves Blockade me on occasion.

Then they invade.

Maybe thats coloring my opinions ;)

348 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:01:35pm

re: #345 Dark_Falcon

Calling people “shit piles” isn’t wise. It’s a quick way to start a flame war, and it gives Cordell reason to say we’re just a bunch of hotheads.

Start a flamewar? *looks around*

349 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:01:42pm

re: #344 Racer X

You never listen to anyone do you?

What? Did you say something?

350 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:01:53pm

re: #332 windsagio

like that’d stop it >>

Topics here die their own natural deaths. Charles will intro a subject and not 20 posts in we’ll be OT never to speak of the original again. Then there;s times when Charles will move onto something “new” and not 20 posts in we’ll be right back continuing on the “last” thread.
As stated, if you care not to discuss the subject at hand ,, DON’T. Wait it out

351 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:01:55pm

re: #345 Dark_Falcon

oh don’t worry, its just steve. You learn pretty fast not to get trolled… or you don’t make it on here ;)

352 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:02:01pm

re: #338 JasonA

Eggzactly.

Now go play Dwarf Fortress or something.

if he’s here, he’s almost guaranteed to be playing DF in the other window ;-)

If I’m here, I’ve got art on my tablet LCD and I’m giving my wrist a break.

353 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:02:05pm

re: #295 Joo-LiZ

I think their points are more that “Yes the governments suck, but the people are the victims of the PA and Hamas… Why does Israel also have to harm the people?”

I think it’s a valid point on the one hand, but on the other Israel doesn’t have much choice. How do you differentiate between those who want peace and those who don’t? Especially when those who want peace are silent or killed.

Yes, they are oppressed. It is a pity on them for that, but part of that oppression is indoctrination that starts as soon as they can walk and talk. (Sometimes before if I recall a pic of an infant baby with a bomb belt….) So we know they are oppressed, but most of them feel it’s the sacrifice they must make. Brainwashed by an evil society.

Palestinians DO leave Gaza and become quite successful in the Western world btw. I had a gay Palestinian hairdresser for a time :)

At any rate, the answer eludes everyone, and the Israelis are doing their best 95% of the time to do the right thing, first for themselves and secondly for the oppressed.

354 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:02:14pm

re: #337 Soap_Man

Lecturing people on what they shouldn’t do in complex situations is the easy part.

Coming up with solutions for said complex solutions is what is difficult.

he’s been offered the opportunity…

355 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:02:35pm

That’s nice.

But what exactly is wrong with the terms and conditions?

What exactly is so onerous on the Palestinians?

356 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:02:48pm

re: #350 sattv4u2


The problem is, we’re all getting our needs met here (including me). Its just not neccesarily healthy :P

357 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:02:55pm

Much more fun watching the BP operation live.

358 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:03:30pm

re: #336 drcordell

Well, for one because it’s a given. But aside from this, because I believe that the solution to this clusterfuck has to stem from Israel. They are the ones holding all of the cards. Israel is in charge, and they have to be proactive about resolving the situation because it’s their nation at stake here. And the present situation of quasi-apartheid, whatever you want to call it, is unsustainable.

Because if Israel keeps control of the contested areas, the international push is going to be to allow naturalization of the Palestinian/arab populations into Israel. Thus jeopardizing Israel’s fundamentally Jewish nature. So finding out a way to cut the Palestinians loose without giving them rights as Israeli citizens should be pretty high on the priorities list.

Aha.

Now we come to the root of the issue.

I think the majority of Israelis agree that the Palestinians should get their own state, and that Israel should withdraw control of the contested areas. The problem that is currently on the table is how to do that safely.

There are two precedents for it happening badly, and that is a big part of why it is so difficult to do so on the West Bank as well. Israel has seen the response to its withdrawals from Gaza and Lebanon, and knows that without security guarantees, a withdrawal from the West Bank would be more disastrous by manyfold.

So if we want Israel to take steps to withdraw, we need to ensure that we can convince them the Palestinians will be peaceful and Israel will be secure. To convince them, we need to address the threats emanating from the Palestinians such as Hamas and other terrorist groups, as well as the historical precedents that have shown otherwise.

359 freetoken  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:03:38pm

re: #357 Racer X

Much more fun watching the BP operation live.

Have they blowed it up real good yet?

360 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:03:52pm

re: #336 drcordell

Thats a very long NON answer to the direct questions you were asked in 284 and 296

361 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:03:52pm

re: #345 Dark_Falcon

Calling people “shit piles” isn’t wise. It’s a quick way to start a flame war, and it gives Cordell reason to say we’re just a bunch of hotheads.

I could care less…certain people here hate me anyway…so what?

362 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:04:09pm

I hate to defend anyone here who is carping about how we all pick on the poor widdle Palis, but it is starting to look like this was a Turkish operation from the get go. The Turks have been steadily moving towards radical Islam and away from a secular government, and it looks like this is Erdogan’s chosen moment to make his big move in the Islamic Middle East. This incident gives him the cover he needs to sever ties with Israel and to whip up sufficient domestic support to keep the generals under control while he ushers in the Islamic State in alliance with Iran.
Hamas and the Palis are surrogate pawns in this larger regional play.

363 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:04:15pm

re: #318 solomonpanting

“Dammit, Jim. I’m a peace activist, not a longshoreman.”

I can’t stop laughing lolll

364 Jerk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:04:27pm

re: #355 researchok

I liked the one post here from a while back about a Palestinian poll on what the population found was most important, and prisoner release won handily over peace iirc.

365 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:04:34pm

re: #336 drcordell

Well, for one because it’s a given. But aside from this, because I believe that the solution to this clusterfuck has to stem from Israel. They are the ones holding all of the cards. Israel is in charge, and they have to be proactive about resolving the situation because it’s their nation at stake here. And the present situation of quasi-apartheid, whatever you want to call it, is unsustainable.

Because if Israel keeps control of the contested areas, the international push is going to be to allow naturalization of the Palestinian/arab populations into Israel. Thus jeopardizing Israel’s fundamentally Jewish nature. So finding out a way to cut the Palestinians loose without giving them rights as Israeli citizens should be pretty high on the priorities list.

you do remember Camp David back in 2000, right? Israel offered just such a deal and Yasser Arafat turned it down without offering anything, then went home and started the “Second Intifada”. Israel offered the peace you propose and Arafat responded with war.

366 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:04:40pm

re: #353 marjoriemoon

Yes, they are oppressed. It is a pity on them for that, but part of that oppression is indoctrination that starts as soon as they can walk and talk. (Sometimes before if I recall a pic of an infant baby with a bomb belt…) So we know they are oppressed, but most of them feel it’s the sacrifice they must make. Brainwashed by an evil society.

Palestinians DO leave Gaza and become quite successful in the Western world btw. I had a gay Palestinian hairdresser for a time :)

At any rate, the answer eludes everyone, and the Israelis are doing their best 95% of the time to do the right thing, first for themselves and secondly for the oppressed.

This is what I’m talking about here. This notion that Israel is somehow both acting in the interests of Israelis AND in the interests of the Palestinians. I’m sorry, but that’s clearly not borne out by the facts.

That’s like saying the U.S. military would treat a terrorist cell in Detroit the same way as they’d treat a terrorist cell in Iraq. When was the last time you saw an Apache helicopter blow up a suspected domestic terrorist’s house in Michigan?

367 solomonpanting  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:04:51pm

re: #336 drcordell


But aside from this, because I believe that the solution to this clusterfuck has to stem from Israel. They are the ones holding all of the cards. Israel is in charge, and they have to be proactive about resolving the situation because it’s their nation at stake here.

And the supporters of the Palis, Hamas, PLO…
Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia are innocent bystanders?

What’s that about the elephant in the room?

368 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:05:12pm

re: #351 windsagio

oh don’t worry, its just steve. You learn pretty fast not to get trolled… or you don’t make it on here ;)

fuck you and your troll fixation….go stalk somebody else

369 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:05:15pm

re: #336 drcordell

To work with your analogy, Israel may be holding the cards, but Hamas and the terrorists hold the gun. It doesn’t matter that Israel has a royal flush, that they’ve won repeated wars and defeated Hamas in Operation Cast Lead or defeated Hizbullah in their conflict in Lebanon - it’s the perception that those groups simply survived gives them the propaganda win - and the determination to continue fighting Israel until their hoped-for outcome of Israel’s destruction.

So, until Israel finds itself with a partner for peace, there wont be any.

You can’t impose peace from above as the US, Quartet, and even Israel have attempted.

Gaza disengagement was an attempt at peace. It failed.
Imposing peace has failed.

Until the Palestinians want peace as badly as Israel does, it’s not going to end.

370 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:05:16pm

re: #358 Joo-LiZ

The other piece of the problem is that there are factions in the Israeli body politic that are just as intractable and hostile (if less criminal) as the Palestinians. And they like to try to make the situation worse.

371 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:05:17pm

re: #336 drcordell

Well, for one because it’s a given. But aside from this, because I believe that the solution to this clusterfuck has to stem from Israel. They are the ones holding all of the cards. Israel is in charge, and they have to be proactive about resolving the situation because it’s their nation at stake here. And the present situation of quasi-apartheid, whatever you want to call it, is unsustainable.

Because if Israel keeps control of the contested areas, the international push is going to be to allow naturalization of the Palestinian/arab populations into Israel. Thus jeopardizing Israel’s fundamentally Jewish nature. So finding out a way to cut the Palestinians loose without giving them rights as Israeli citizens should be pretty high on the priorities list.

Five years ago you might have had a point. But Israel has been there and done that, got the T-shirt and a bunch of rockets on Sderot and Ashkelon, and no humanitarian aid for Gilad Shalit.

372 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:05:46pm

re: #358 Joo-LiZ

Aha.

Now we come to the root of the issue.

I think the majority of Israelis agree that the Palestinians should get their own state, and that Israel should withdraw control of the contested areas. The problem that is currently on the table is how to do that safely.

There are two precedents for it happening badly, and that is a big part of why it is so difficult to do so on the West Bank as well. Israel has seen the response to its withdrawals from Gaza and Lebanon, and knows that without security guarantees, a withdrawal from the West Bank would be more disastrous by manyfold.

So if we want Israel to take steps to withdraw, we need to ensure that we can convince them the Palestinians will be peaceful and Israel will be secure. To convince them, we need to address the threats emanating from the Palestinians such as Hamas and other terrorist groups, as well as the historical precedents that have shown otherwise.

Hear, hear!

373 Soap_Man  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:06:09pm

See the whole solution is simple!!

Give me a second here. Okay, so all the cards are in Israels’ hand right? So why don’t they just sit down with Hamas and hammer out a peace deal. You know one that satisfies the concerns of both sides.

Oh wait. Can’t do that. Because in order for Israel to satisfy Hamas’ demands they would have to, you know, stop existing.

//Somebody in this room needs to get off their unicorn.

374 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:06:10pm

re: #366 drcordell

This is what I’m talking about here. This notion that Israel is somehow both acting in the interests of Israelis AND in the interests of the Palestinians. I’m sorry, but that’s clearly not borne out by the facts.

That’s like saying the U.S. military would treat a terrorist cell in Detroit the same way as they’d treat a terrorist cell in Iraq. When was the last time you saw an Apache helicopter blow up a suspected domestic terrorist’s house in Michigan?

That’s, like, the worst analogy I’ve ever seen.

375 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:06:50pm

re: #362 Spare O’Lake

I hate to defend anyone here who is carping about how we all pick on the poor widdle Palis, but it is starting to look like this was a Turkish operation from the get go. The Turks have been steadily moving towards radical Islam and away from a secular government, and it looks like this is Erdogan’s chosen moment to make his big move in the Islamic Middle East. This incident gives him the cover he needs to sever ties with Israel and to whip up sufficient domestic support to keep the generals under control while he ushers in the Islamic State in alliance with Iran.
Hamas and the Palis are surrogate pawns in this larger regional play.

I agree, I think that is the right way to look at the Flotilla Fiasco from a geopolitical perspective.

There is also some suspiciousness involved with those ‘activists’ that were violent. There was over $1mil in cash found on them, as well as some pseudo-military equipment. There is speculation they may have been mercenaries hired in Turkey to cause the incident.

376 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:07:20pm

re: #365 Dark_Falcon

you do remember Camp David back in 2000, right? Israel offered just such a deal and Yasser Arafat turned it down without offering anything, then went home and started the “Second Intifada”. Israel offered the peace you propose and Arafat responded with war.

Yeah, and he was a FUCKING ASSHOLE. Stop lumping in an entire population of people with one misguided leader. I sure as fuck wouldn’t like anyone I meet to equate anything George Bush did with how I feel. Everyone on this board treats “Palestinians” like some monolithic entity that feels and acts the same way about everything.

377 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:07:21pm

re: #362 Spare O’Lake

I hate to defend anyone here who is carping about how we all pick on the poor widdle Palis, but it is starting to look like this was a Turkish operation from the get go. The Turks have been steadily moving towards radical Islam and away from a secular government, and it looks like this is Erdogan’s chosen moment to make his big move in the Islamic Middle East. This incident gives him the cover he needs to sever ties with Israel and to whip up sufficient domestic support to keep the generals under control while he ushers in the Islamic State in alliance with Iran.
Hamas and the Palis are surrogate pawns in this larger regional play.

Good points. If he does that, then Turkey will have effectively abrogated its alliance with the US and renounced NATO.

378 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:07:22pm

re: #362 Spare O’Lake

I hate to defend anyone here who is carping about how we all pick on the poor widdle Palis, but it is starting to look like this was a Turkish operation from the get go. The Turks have been steadily moving towards radical Islam and away from a secular government, and it looks like this is Erdogan’s chosen moment to make his big move in the Islamic Middle East. This incident gives him the cover he needs to sever ties with Israel and to whip up sufficient domestic support to keep the generals under control while he ushers in the Islamic State in alliance with Iran.
Hamas and the Palis are surrogate pawns in this larger regional play.

Ding ding ding!

Although I’m not sure how close the Turks want to get with Iran. I think it is more of a power-play. They want to show Iran they are still a force to be reckoned with.

379 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:07:34pm

re: #370 windsagio

The other piece of the problem is that there are factions in the Israeli body politic that are just as intractable and hostile (if less criminal) as the Palestinians. And they like to try to make the situation worse.

who?…links

380 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:08:03pm

re: #336 drcordell

Well, for one because it’s a given. But aside from this, because I believe that the solution to this clusterfuck has to stem from Israel. They are the ones holding all of the cards. Israel is in charge, and they have to be proactive about resolving the situation because it’s their nation at stake here. And the present situation of quasi-apartheid, whatever you want to call it, is unsustainable.

Because if Israel keeps control of the contested areas, the international push is going to be to allow naturalization of the Palestinian/arab populations into Israel. Thus jeopardizing Israel’s fundamentally Jewish nature. So finding out a way to cut the Palestinians loose without giving them rights as Israeli citizens should be pretty high on the priorities list.

You do realize that Hamas is sworn to destroy Israel, right? Hell, even the Associated Press is including that in their articles these days.

It’s beyond me how you can say that only Israel has the power to end the conflict, when Hamas/Fatah and the majority of Palestinians (in poll after poll) have completely rejected any compromise whatsoever, and continue attempting terrorist attacks on a daily basis.

THAT is the intransigent part of this conflict. That and the support from cynical Arab regimes who use the Palestinians as a stalking horse.

One side of this conflict has repeatedly attempted to compromise and find solutions, over and over again. That side would be Israel.

Another side of this conflict has repeatedly rejected all solutions, and returned to committing random terrorist violence, over and over again. That side would be the Palestinians.

381 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:08:48pm

re: #376 drcordell

Yeah, and he was a FUCKING ASSHOLE. Stop lumping in an entire population of people with one misguided leader. I sure as fuck wouldn’t like anyone I meet to equate anything George Bush did with how I feel. Everyone on this board treats “Palestinians” like some monolithic entity that feels and acts the same way about everything.

LOL ,,, you rail against broadbrush WITH a broadbrush!

Priceless!

382 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:09:19pm

re: #374 JasonA

That’s, like, the worst analogy I’ve ever seen.

Really? I found it to be quite apt. The point being, nations conduct anti-terror operations just a wee bit differently when their own citizens aren’t the ones sponging up the collateral damage. No different with the U.S. or with Israel.

383 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:09:43pm

re: #336 drcordell

Well, for one because it’s a given. But aside from this, because I believe that the solution to this clusterfuck has to stem from Israel. They are the ones holding all of the cards. Israel is in charge, and they have to be proactive about resolving the situation because it’s their nation at stake here. And the present situation of quasi-apartheid, whatever you want to call it, is unsustainable.

Hmm. Let’s see:

Hezbollah has nearly as many rockets, missiles and mortars on the Lebanese border with Israel as the Norks do above the DMZ. Israel does not hold those cards.

Gaza, until it got the shit pounded out of it, was raining down what you were once pleased to trivialize as “glorified firecrackers” on Israel at a rate that would cause you, if you were the target, to slit the throat of your neighbor’s baby to get him to stop. No cards in Israel’s hand there.

Syria via Iran are working to get ever more sophisticated weapons into the hands of their proxies in Lebanon, and but for the blockade they’d be doing it in Gaza too. Not part of Israel’s hand.

Iran, meanwhile, is feverishly working on the Big One. Which may force Israel’s hand, but that card is not in their deck.

Find another metaphor, preferably one that jibes with reality.

384 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:09:45pm

re: #376 drcordell

Yeah, and he was a FUCKING ASSHOLE. Stop lumping in an entire population of people with one misguided leader. I sure as fuck wouldn’t like anyone I meet to equate anything George Bush did with how I feel. Everyone on this board treats “Palestinians” like some monolithic entity that feels and acts the same way about everything.

if I were you I’d retire, change my name and come back as someone else…yuor arrogant, naive tripe is just smoke now

385 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:09:48pm

re: #379 albusteve

Too lazy to look it up, but there was that image the other night of douchey kids taunting the Palestinian woman.

PS: Its nice that you suddenly care about evidence… I presume you learned that from the other side?

386 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:09:58pm

re: #376 drcordell

Yeah, and he was a FUCKING ASSHOLE. Stop lumping in an entire population of people with one misguided leader. I sure as fuck wouldn’t like anyone I meet to equate anything George Bush did with how I feel. Everyone on this board treats “Palestinians” like some monolithic entity that feels and acts the same way about everything.

But you seem to treat Israel as a monolithic entity, with the power to magically end the conflict even though terrorist groups are in control of Gaza, sworn to wipe out Israel. How does that work?

387 ryannon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:10:16pm

re: #196 drcordell

Fuck your ignorance. As a whole illegal immigrants are a net BOON to our economy. Cheap labor. Paying payroll taxes for benefits such as unemployment and SS that they can’t receive. Explain again where the drain is?

Press one.

388 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:10:23pm

re: #376 drcordell

Yeah, and he was a FUCKING ASSHOLE. Stop lumping in an entire population of people with one misguided leader. I sure as fuck wouldn’t like anyone I meet to equate anything George Bush did with how I feel. Everyone on this board treats “Palestinians” like some monolithic entity that feels and acts the same way about everything.

The Israelis know differently. That is why they undertake operations of targeted assassinations against the terrorist leadership.

There is a real problem within Palestinian society that prevents an open discourse from occurring and suppresses moderate voices. Bibi’s vision is hoping to manufacture conditions (through an ‘economic peace’) that might allow some decent people to have a stake in their own lives, and maybe speak out against their leadership.

Until then, the population is dependent on their leaders, on international aid, and are force-fed belligerency from every angle.

The incitement angle is not something that can be ignored, either.

389 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:10:45pm

re: #376 drcordell

Yeah, and he was a FUCKING ASSHOLE. Stop lumping in an entire population of people with one misguided leader. I sure as fuck wouldn’t like anyone I meet to equate anything George Bush did with how I feel. Everyone on this board treats “Palestinians” like some monolithic entity that feels and acts the same way about everything.

The Palestinians sure do have a piss-poor history of choosing leaders who don’t represent the real population in any way shape or form.

390 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:10:48pm

re: #386 Charles

Pixie dust apparently.

391 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:11:33pm

re: #376 drcordell

Yeah, and he was a FUCKING ASSHOLE. Stop lumping in an entire population of people with one misguided leader. I sure as fuck wouldn’t like anyone I meet to equate anything George Bush did with how I feel. Everyone on this board treats “Palestinians” like some monolithic entity that feels and acts the same way about everything.

I’m not lumping them all together. But Israel cannot negotiate with the entire Palestinian population; It has to talk to those they elected. And those officials refuse to bargain in good faith. What’s your answer to that?

392 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:11:48pm

OTYOT…

I learn so much here.

Thanks, guys.

393 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:11:54pm

I got 5 bucks says Hezbollah will start raining down missiles from Lebanon any day now in response.

394 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:12:00pm

re: #390 lawhawk

Pixie dust apparently.

coming from you, that’s funny….I agree

395 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:12:08pm

re: #382 drcordell

Really? Because when the FBI arrests a terror cell in Detroit, New York, wherever in the US, they have the support of local law enforcement. They don’t have to worry about being shot at while driving to the damn place. They also don’t have to worry about the terrorists being aided by the local community, either. So no, it’s not the same thing.

396 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:12:09pm

re: #375 Joo-LiZ

I agree, I think that is the right way to look at the Flotilla Fiasco from a geopolitical perspective.

There is also some suspiciousness involved with those ‘activists’ that were violent. There was over $1mil in cash found on them, as well as some pseudo-military equipment. There is speculation they may have been mercenaries hired in Turkey to cause the incident.

Worse than that, a Turkish jihadist organization called IHH was apparently the main “sponsor” of the operation. They are apparently well-known to US Homeland Security.

397 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:12:10pm

re: #392 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

OTYOT…

I learn so much here.

Thanks, guys.

OTYOT?

398 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:12:14pm

re: #389 Alouette

The Palestinians sure do have a piss-poor history of choosing leaders who don’t represent the real population in any way shape or form.

They voted for Hamas buy a large majority in Gaza. They knew exactly who they were getting.

It isn’t as if Hamas tries to hide their agenda.

399 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:13:21pm

re: #397 Joo-LiZ

On topic, yet off topic.

400 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:14:11pm

re: #366 drcordell

This is what I’m talking about here. This notion that Israel is somehow both acting in the interests of Israelis AND in the interests of the Palestinians. I’m sorry, but that’s clearly not borne out by the facts.

That’s like saying the U.S. military would treat a terrorist cell in Detroit the same way as they’d treat a terrorist cell in Iraq. When was the last time you saw an Apache helicopter blow up a suspected domestic terrorist’s house in Michigan?

You continue to stick to an agenda. I know it’s a lot for you to read here and answer everyone, but I responded to you here littlegreenfootballs.com with a link to the aid Gaza gets. And it’s A LOT.

Again, don’t be silly and don’t compare any problem we may have with MAYBE a handful of terrorists with the ongoing M.E. conflict all these years.

401 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:14:42pm

re: #382 drcordell

Now would be about as good a time as any to “remember” that you have something else to do
Either that, or like Monday, blame it on the “holiday drinking” !

just sayin!

402 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:15:19pm

re: #393 Racer X

I got 5 bucks says Hezbollah will start raining down missiles from Lebanon any day now in response.

cool…some IAF live fire target practice

403 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:16:26pm

re: #396 Spare O’Lake

Worse than that, a Turkish jihadist organization called IHH was apparently the main “sponsor” of the operation. They are apparently well-known to US Homeland Security.

expect them to disappear in a few months

404 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:16:29pm

re: #396 Spare O’Lake

Worse than that, a Turkish jihadist organization called IHH was apparently the main “sponsor” of the operation. They are apparently well-known to US Homeland Security.

Not just US Homeland Security. Israeli and Danish as well, and guess who the main source of the intel is? Turkey.

Shooting the Messenger: A Look at the Facts on the Turkish Aid Group IHH
By Evan Kohlmann

When I first published a research paper four years ago with the Danish Institute for International Studies (DIIS) on the Turkish Muslim charitable group Insani Yardim Vakfi (IHH), I didn’t imagine it would get much of a response outside the academic conference in which it was presented in Copenhagen. However, as a result of this weekend’s tragic Israeli raid on an IHH-sponsored flotilla of vessels attempting to break the ongoing blockade on Gaza, the group has suddenly jumped into the headlines, and has become a focus of intense debate over the intentions of the flotilla organizers and the controversial killing of at least 9 would-be participants by Israeli commandos.

Though my DIIS paper made no mention of IHH’s activities in Gaza or in support of suffering Palestinian refugees, some of those angered by the Israeli flotilla raid have instead turned their emotional animus on past critics of IHH, such as myself. While I certainly can’t speak with any authority on what took place on the Gaza flotilla boats, I’m rather mystified why the flotilla killings—whether right or wrong—would have any bearing on the factual question of whether the IHH has engaged in illicit financing and episodic support to extremist groups. The evidence in this regard is fairly weighty, and much of it comes directly from the Turkish government — not the United States, nor the Israelis.

RTWT

405 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:16:45pm

re: #380 Charles

You do realize that Hamas is sworn to destroy Israel, right? Hell, even the Associated Press is including that in their articles these days.

It’s beyond me how you can say that only Israel has the power to end the conflict, when Hamas/Fatah and the majority of Palestinians (in poll after poll) have completely rejected any compromise whatsoever, and continue attempting terrorist attacks on a daily basis.

THAT is the intransigent part of this conflict. That and the support from cynical Arab regimes who use the Palestinians as a stalking horse.

One side of this conflict has repeatedly attempted to compromise and find solutions, over and over again. That side would be Israel.

Another side of this conflict has repeatedly rejected all solutions, and returned to committing random terrorist violence, over and over again. That side would be the Palestinians.

All of these are valid points. But none of this changes the facts on the ground. Those facts are that Israel has completely surrounded and isolated the areas in question. They militarily control almost all access in and out. They control all seabound access. They control almost all of the water and electricity. They are in charge.

And right now, the status quo is completely unsustainable. Israel launches frequent military operations, but isn’t technically “occupying.” They have effectively cordoned off the Palestinian population into a walled-off area of their making. And now the situation isn’t improving. And if they continue to keep up the blockade, and the frequent military interventions, it certainly won’t improve any time soon.

So, if anything is going to change, the onus is on the Israelis to make a move. The Palestinians are fragmented, lack a cohesive government, and are essentially powerless. Even if 95% of Palestinians were begging for a new peace accord, all it takes is one crazed asshole to launch a rocket and send everything back to square one.

Furthermore, Israel is the nation facing the massive consequences of what to do with all of these people. Can they sustain the growing international pressure that comes from isolating the Palestinians without giving them either sovereignty or Israeli citizenship? Does Israel cease to be Israel if it allows a massive influx of Arab citizens? These are all issues that only Israel itself can address. And the way I see it, continuing with the status quo is going to answer these questions for Israel, possibly in a way that they do not like.

406 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:16:58pm

re: #394 albusteve

Hey, I can be a funny guy…

407 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:17:33pm

re: #386 Charles

But you seem to treat Israel as a monolithic entity, with the power to magically end the conflict even though terrorist groups in control of Gaza, sworn to wipe out Israel. How does that work?

CHARLES… you rogered the thread… Dr. Cordell was getting along so wonderfully until you asked him a few questions…
/

408 ryannon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:17:36pm

re: #102 drcordell

My problem is people who can’t wrap their head around the fact that Israel has a huge stake in how the Gaza situation turns out. And their agenda doesn’t exactly jive with that of the Palestinians. And some people can’t possibly fathom that Israel may be acting unilaterally in it’s own interests.

If it ain’t got that swing, it don’t mean a thing.

409 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:17:40pm

re: #377 Dark_Falcon

Good points. If he does that, then Turkey will have effectively abrogated its alliance with the US and renounced NATO.

Good thing the US has the staunchly pro-Israel Obama who will never sell out Israel in order to placate the Turks.

410 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:17:46pm

re: #402 albusteve

cool…some IAF live fire target practice

Not cool. Iran gave them better longer range missiles recently.

411 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:17:51pm

Hey, how the hell did Cordell get into positive karma? And 1,000, no less!

412 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:18:21pm

re: #405 drcordell

All of these are valid points. But none of this changes the facts on the ground. Those facts are that Israel has completely surrounded and isolated the areas in question. They militarily control almost all access in and out. They control all seabound access. They control almost all of the water and electricity. They are in charge.

And right now, the status quo is completely unsustainable. Israel launches frequent military operations, but isn’t technically “occupying.” They have effectively cordoned off the Palestinian population into a walled-off area of their making. And now the situation isn’t improving. And if they continue to keep up the blockade, and the frequent military interventions, it certainly won’t improve any time soon.

So, if anything is going to change, the onus is on the Israelis to make a move. The Palestinians are fragmented, lack a cohesive government, and are essentially powerless. Even if 95% of Palestinians were begging for a new peace accord, all it takes is one crazed asshole to launch a rocket and send everything back to square one.

Furthermore, Israel is the nation facing the massive consequences of what to do with all of these people. Can they sustain the growing international pressure that comes from isolating the Palestinians without giving them either sovereignty or Israeli citizenship? Does Israel cease to be Israel if it allows a massive influx of Arab citizens? These are all issues that only Israel itself can address. And the way I see it, continuing with the status quo is going to answer these questions for Israel, possibly in a way that they do not like.

How about Hamas release Gilad Shalit and see what happens?

413 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:18:30pm

re: #405 drcordell

All of these are valid points. But none of this changes the facts on the ground. Those facts are that Israel has completely surrounded and isolated the areas in question. They militarily control almost all access in and out. They control all seabound access. They control almost all of the water and electricity. They are in charge.

And right now, the status quo is completely unsustainable. Israel launches frequent military operations, but isn’t technically “occupying.” They have effectively cordoned off the Palestinian population into a walled-off area of their making. And now the situation isn’t improving. And if they continue to keep up the blockade, and the frequent military interventions, it certainly won’t improve any time soon.

So, if anything is going to change, the onus is on the Israelis to make a move. The Palestinians are fragmented, lack a cohesive government, and are essentially powerless. Even if 95% of Palestinians were begging for a new peace accord, all it takes is one crazed asshole to launch a rocket and send everything back to square one.

Furthermore, Israel is the nation facing the massive consequences of what to do with all of these people. Can they sustain the growing international pressure that comes from isolating the Palestinians without giving them either sovereignty or Israeli citizenship? Does Israel cease to be Israel if it allows a massive influx of Arab citizens? These are all issues that only Israel itself can address. And the way I see it, continuing with the status quo is going to answer these questions for Israel, possibly in a way that they do not like.


too stupid, no comment…I tell you bro, you are one fucked up person if you believe half of the shit you post

414 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:18:36pm

re: #409 Spare O’Lake

You owe me a new sarcasm detector.

415 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:18:45pm

Cordell thinks Arafat was a fucking asshole - whoops! we agree on something.

What I find hard to grasp is how the non-monolithic, independent-minded Palestinians managed to accidentally keep him in power all those years, and then his organization, and then, when elections were held in Gaza, they actually mistakenly managed to vote for an even worse group of leaders.

I mean, imagine the bad luck!

416 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:19:02pm

re: #406 lawhawk

Hey, I can be a funny guy…

yes, fungi!
really you can…

417 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:19:04pm

re: #370 windsagio

The other piece of the problem is that there are factions in the Israeli body politic that are just as intractable and hostile (if less criminal) as the Palestinians. And they like to try to make the situation worse.

Yes that is a problem. But, they are outside the mainstream of Israel, and if there was a moderate voice from the Palestinians, the Israeli public would quickly take on their own radicals.

418 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:19:26pm

re: #411 JasonA

Hey, how the hell did Cordell get into positive karma? And 1,000, no less!

Watch who updings him.

419 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:19:52pm

re: #378 Racer X

Ding ding ding!

Although I’m not sure how close the Turks want to get with Iran. I think it is more of a power-play. They want to show Iran they are still a force to be reckoned with.

Hmmm…Turkey vs Iran? Let’s hope.

420 Stanley Sea  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:19:54pm

re: #418 Racer X

Watch who updings him.

Witch hunts.

421 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:20:04pm

re: #418 Racer X

Watch who updings him.

indeed.

422 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:20:09pm

I’ve been clattering away answering questions for my past few posts. Now I want to pose a few. How about someone tells me exactly how they see this situation playing out for Israel?

How does Israel intend to end the conflict with it’s current course of action? When will the methodology of “you launch a rocket I blow up your whole neighborhood” start seeing dividends?

423 Aziz Poonawalla  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:20:20pm

Everyone on this board treats “Palestinians” like some monolithic entity that feels and acts the same way about everything.

that’s a good point, but it would be a better point without the word “fucking”. A better way to make the point would be to note that the PA and Egypt were basically rooting for the flotilla to fail, and Egypt is now grandstanding because they want to stay on the “right” side of angry Arab public opinion.

I think cynicism is generally warranted, no matter what side you’re on, or even if (like me) you still cling to the idea that you are on both sides. I may be wrong but Im trying.

Here’s my thoughts on the mess. In a nutshell, Israel was played for fools, and the Free Gaza people are whores. Meanwhile, Gaza suffers, and will suffer, endlessly. Because no one - Hamas, the PA, Israel, the Arabs - really give a, ahem, fucking shit.

424 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:20:22pm

re: #411 JasonA

Hey, how the hell did Cordell get into positive karma? And 1,000, no less!


The same way you can beat the shit out of somebody with a metal pipe and be labeled a peace activist.. It’s magic dust

425 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:20:32pm

re: #418 Racer X

Watch who updings him.

OH SHIT IF I UPDING HIM WILL I NOT BE INVITED TO THE COUNTRY CLUB?!?!?! :( :( :(

426 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:20:42pm

I have a solution:

The Palestinians can accept Israel’s offer of peace.

Problem solved.

It’s a fair offer.

427 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:20:54pm

re: #419 Spare O’Lake

Hmmm…Turkey vs Iran? Let’s hope.

Kurds…

428 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:21:06pm

re: #407 Walter L. Newton

CHARLES… you rogered the thread… Dr. Cordell was getting along so wonderfully until you asked him a few questions…
/

Charles’ goals for the thread might be different than yours tho ;)

429 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:21:10pm

re: #420 Stanley Sea

Witch hunts.

?

430 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:21:24pm

re: #415 Cato the Elder

Cordell thinks Arafat was a fucking asshole - whoops! we agree on something.

What I find hard to grasp is how the non-monolithic, independent-minded Palestinians managed to accidentally keep him in power all those years, and then his organization, and then, when elections were held in Gaza, they actually mistakenly managed to vote for an even worse group of leaders.

I mean, imagine the bad luck!

You are shocked that third-world politics may be completely corrupt and managed by forces outside the control of the average citizen? Really? You can’t wrap your head around the fact that Arafat was not acting for anyone’s interest but his own and those of his benefactors?

431 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:21:24pm

re: #412 Alouette

How about Hamas release Gilad Shalit and see what happens?

If he were an American soldier there wouldn’t be much of a Gaza left for us to bitch about.

432 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:21:45pm

I’m actually walking on the Stupid…I don’t even sink!..so that’s how they do it!

433 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:21:48pm

re: #385 windsagio

Too lazy to look it up, but there was that image the other night of douchey kids taunting the Palestinian woman.

PS: Its nice that you suddenly care about evidence… I presume you learned that from the other side?

Are you really as stupid as you act?

434 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:22:03pm

re: #425 WindUpBird

They’ll totally GAZE you foreveer!

435 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:22:08pm

re: #405 drcordell

All of these are valid points. But none of this changes the facts on the ground. Those facts are that Israel has completely surrounded and isolated the areas in question. They militarily control almost all access in and out. They control all seabound access. They control almost all of the water and electricity. They are in charge.

And right now, the status quo is completely unsustainable. Israel launches frequent military operations, but isn’t technically “occupying.” They have effectively cordoned off the Palestinian population into a walled-off area of their making. And now the situation isn’t improving. And if they continue to keep up the blockade, and the frequent military interventions, it certainly won’t improve any time soon.

So, if anything is going to change, the onus is on the Israelis to make a move. The Palestinians are fragmented, lack a cohesive government, and are essentially powerless. Even if 95% of Palestinians were begging for a new peace accord, all it takes is one crazed asshole to launch a rocket and send everything back to square one.

Furthermore, Israel is the nation facing the massive consequences of what to do with all of these people. Can they sustain the growing international pressure that comes from isolating the Palestinians without giving them either sovereignty or Israeli citizenship? Does Israel cease to be Israel if it allows a massive influx of Arab citizens? These are all issues that only Israel itself can address. And the way I see it, continuing with the status quo is going to answer these questions for Israel, possibly in a way that they do not like.

The multiple levels of disconnects in you comment above is stupendous. You say… “Israel launches frequent military operations…” In response to what?

You say “The Palestinians are fragmented, lack a cohesive government, and are essentially powerless…” and in the next breath you admit they have the ability “launch a rocket.”

You say “isolating the Palestinians without giving them either sovereignty or Israeli citizenship…” No… the Palestinians have isolated themselves and forced most of the hands that have been played against them.

This is probably hard for someone like you to understand, since you are so convinced that the Palestinians have been FORCED to respond they way they have.

Sound familiar?

436 Aziz Poonawalla  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:22:09pm

sigh. first para of my comment 423 should have been ital or bquoted or something.

/noob

437 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:22:13pm

re: #415 Cato the Elder

Cordell thinks Arafat was a fucking asshole - whoops! we agree on something.

What I find hard to grasp is how the non-monolithic, independent-minded Palestinians managed to accidentally keep him in power all those years, and then his organization, and then, when elections were held in Gaza, they actually mistakenly managed to vote for an even worse group of leaders.

I mean, imagine the bad luck!

Let me guess, you are SHOCKED, JUST SHOCKED, that the Somalis keep letting those crazed warlords take control of their country! Why don’t they just put a nice guy in power for once!

438 simoom  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:22:37pm
“We have been working non-stop for the last twenty-four hours examining the cargo holds of the three large cargo ships and I can say with great assurance, that none of the equipment on board is needed in Gaza. The equipment that we found is all equipment that we have regularly allowed into the strip over the past year,” said Levi. “This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the whole premise of the voyage was for propaganda and provocation and not for humanitarian purposes.”

This quoted statement does seem to be somewhat misleading, as a great deal of the cargo did consist of banned construction materials (a couple thousand tons of cement, hundreds of tons of steel bars, etc), though Colonel Levi does mention as much later in the Jerusalem Post article.

439 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:22:54pm

re: #431 JasonA

If he were an American soldier there wouldn’t be much of a Gaza left for us to bitch about.

well yes at one time that was so…

440 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:22:55pm

re: #430 drcordell

You are shocked that third-world politics may be completely corrupt and managed by forces outside the control of the average citizen? Really? You can’t wrap your head around the fact that Arafat was not acting for anyone’s interest but his own and those of his benefactors?

Just exactly who are the Israelis supposed to “negotiate” with? Or are they just supposed to lay down their arms and surrender according to the terms of the “Saudi Peace Plan”?

441 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:23:01pm

re: #428 windsagio

Charles’ goals for the thread might be different than yours tho ;)

like what?…he posts what he thinks, no more no less…getting your ass handed to you is irrelevent

442 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:23:04pm

re: #434 windsagio

They’ll totally GAZE you foreveer!

hahahahahahaha I’ll be ignored! By the internet! What will I do?

(oh yeah that’s right, I make a living off it)

443 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:23:27pm

re: #411 JasonA

Hey, how the hell did Cordell get into positive karma? And 1,000, no less!

I was wondering where my karma went! Stop, thief!

444 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:23:41pm

re: #439 brookly red

well yes at one time that was so…

Was that a swipe at Obama?

445 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:23:50pm

re: #433 Spare O’Lake

Are you really as stupid as you act?

yes…I’ve scrubbed the benefit of the doubt

446 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:23:52pm

re: #428 windsagio

Charles’ goals for the thread might be different than yours tho ;)

Yawn. My goal is to weed out the anti-semites… nothing else.

447 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:23:57pm

re: #442 WindUpBird

Nono, thats not quite right. They’ll tell you they’re ignoring you but probably not actually *DO* it >>

448 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:23:58pm

re: #438 simoom

I noticed that too. I think what he means is that everything they allow in, they allow in LOTS of it.

449 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:24:04pm

re: #425 WindUpBird

OH SHIT IF I UPDING HIM WILL I NOT BE INVITED TO THE COUNTRY CLUB?!?!?! :( :( :(

Someone asked how Cordell got into positive Karma. I noted you can watch the updings. Thats how you get to positive Karma. Right?

450 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:24:16pm

re: #446 Walter L. Newton

Please :p

You love it and you know it :)

451 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:24:37pm

re: #437 drcordell

Let me guess, you are SHOCKED, JUST SHOCKED, that the Somalis keep letting those crazed warlords take control of their country! Why don’t they just put a nice guy in power for once!

Imagine what the Somalis could do if they had all the resources and international support that Gaza has.

452 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:24:45pm

re: #422 drcordell

the methodology of “you launch a rocket I blow up your whole neighborhood”

If you think thats
A) Hamas’ only fault
and
B) Israels “methodology”
then there’s nothing more to discuss

453 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:24:57pm

re: #444 JasonA

Was that a swipe at Obama?

just the times we live in…

454 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:25:05pm

re: #437 drcordell

Let me guess, you are SHOCKED, JUST SHOCKED, that the Somalis keep letting those crazed warlords take control of their country! Why don’t they just put a nice guy in power for once!

because might makes right…d/a

455 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:25:09pm

re: #449 Racer X

Someone asked how Cordell got into positive Karma. I noted you can watch the updings. Thats how you get to positive Karma. Right?

Yeah, I only brought it up because the last time I bothered to look it was, like, -600 or something.

456 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:25:23pm

re: #435 Walter L. Newton

The multiple levels of disconnects in you comment above is stupendous. You say… “Israel launches frequent military operations…” In response to what?

You say “The Palestinians are fragmented, lack a cohesive government, and are essentially powerless…” and in the next breath you admit they have the ability “launch a rocket.”

You say “isolating the Palestinians without giving them either sovereignty or Israeli citizenship…” No… the Palestinians have isolated themselves and forced most of the hands that have been played against them.

This is probably hard for someone like you to understand, since you are so convinced that the Palestinians have been FORCED to respond they way they have.

Sound familiar?

You have missed my entire point Walter. You keep putting the onus on the Palestinians. Well guess what, you’re going to wait a long fucking time for shit to change there. The point is, at what point does Israel figure out that they have to get this situation in order before it truly becomes an existential threat to their state.

457 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:25:28pm

re: #449 Racer X

Someone asked how Cordell got into positive Karma. I noted you can watch the updings. Thats how you get to positive Karma. Right?

That’s obvious to anyone who has ever typed anything into LGF and hit “post”.

the implication it sounded like you were making is OH MY look at the bad people who actually agree with Cordell on a thing!

458 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:25:57pm

re: #453 brookly red

just the times we live in…

Meh. I have a little more faith in the man than you do.

459 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:26:16pm

re: #455 JasonA

Yeah, I only brought it up because the last time I bothered to look it was, like, -600 or something.

maybe he, like, actually said some stuff that made sense!

460 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:26:19pm

re: #405 drcordell

So, if anything is going to change, the onus is on the Israelis to make a move.

Uh huh.

How many times have we been here before?

And what happens when Israel makes another concession, and it’s rejected by the Palestinians?

Exactly what would be enough? Apparently, handing over control of the Gaza Strip wasn’t enough. The Gaza Strip actually has gorgeous beaches — it could be a fantastic tourist destination. Gaza could be prospering beyond the wildest dreams of the people who live there now.

But they’d have to actually put some effort into building that prosperous society in order for that to happen. There are plenty of people and groups who would support that, if they ever saw any sign of it.

Don’t hold your breath.

Hamas could not care less about the Palestinian people. The surrounding Arab states could not care less about the Palestinian people. You could make a pretty good case, in fact, that the only people who actually give a shit about the Palestinians are the Israelis. Check out how much humanitarian and other aid is given to the Palestinian people by Israel.

I’m sure there are Palestinian people who are utterly sick of the violence and want it to stop. But they are not the majority, and they are not in charge.

461 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:26:26pm

re: #457 WindUpBird

That’s obvious to anyone who has ever typed anything into LGF and hit “post”.

the implication it sounded like you were making is OH MY look at the bad people who actually agree with Cordell on a thing!

I did not look. I have no idea who is agreeing with Cordell.

462 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:26:53pm

re: #456 drcordell

You have missed my entire point Walter. You keep putting the onus on the Palestinians. Well guess what, you’re going to wait a long fucking time for shit to change there. The point is, at what point does Israel figure out that they have to get this situation in order before it truly becomes an existential threat to their state.

The Palestinians can do one thing. Just one thing. They can release Gilad Shalit. Lots of goodies will then come their way.

463 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:27:00pm

re: #414 JasonA

You owe me a new sarcasm detector.

If you know me you know I post on autosarc.

464 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:27:41pm

re: #456 drcordell

Cordell, do you think Israel needs to do something differently before or after a significant portion of the Palestinian population (screw you “monolithic” people for making me type all that) rescinds it’s wishes to kill all the Jews?

465 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:27:51pm

re: #452 sattv4u2


the methodology of “you launch a rocket I blow up your whole neighborhood”

If you think thats
A) Hamas’ only fault
and
B) Israels “methodology”
then there’s nothing more to discuss

Am I wrong in stating that as Israel’s methodology? I was under the impression that was their stated operating procedure. Meet a display of violence with overwhelming force, and hope it serves as a deterrent. Am I wrong there?

466 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:28:37pm

re: #459 WindUpBird

oh no, if you’re wrong about one subject you’re a fool and wrong about everything!

467 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:28:42pm

re: #465 drcordell

Am I wrong in stating that as Israel’s methodology? I was under the impression that was their stated operating procedure. Meet a display of violence with overwhelming force, and hope it serves as a deterrent. Am I wrong there?

Yes.

468 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:28:49pm

re: #422 drcordell

I’ve been clattering away answering questions for my past few posts. Now I want to pose a few. How about someone tells me exactly how they see this situation playing out for Israel?

How does Israel intend to end the conflict with it’s current course of action? When will the methodology of “you launch a rocket I blow up your whole neighborhood” start seeing dividends?

Israel will not annex the Arabs nor kill them all. They deal with the battles as they arise and try to enjoy the moments of relative peace when they can get them.

Until the Arabs are willing to be free, not much else can be done towards peace.

469 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:28:49pm

re: #456 drcordell

You have missed my entire point Walter. You keep putting the onus on the Palestinians. Well guess what, you’re going to wait a long fucking time for shit to change there. The point is, at what point does Israel figure out that they have to get this situation in order before it truly becomes an existential threat to their state.

how many people do you figure can live in Gaza per square kilometer?…the Israelies are trying to get this situation in order, and effectively protecting the Palis from themselves….where are your solutions Einstein?…been waiting long enough

470 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:28:51pm

re: #456 drcordell

You have missed my entire point Walter. You keep putting the onus on the Palestinians. Well guess what, you’re going to wait a long fucking time for shit to change there. The point is, at what point does Israel figure out that they have to get this situation in order before it truly becomes an existential threat to their state.

The threat is not existential. The threat is REAL…

“During its searches of the Mavi Marmara on Tuesday, the military also discovered a cache of bulletproof vests and night-vision goggles, as well as gas masks. On Monday morning, at least nine foreign activists were killed during the navy’s takeover of the Mavi Marmara, which was trying to break Israel’s blockade of the Gaza Strip.”

jpost.com

471 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:29:15pm

re: #456 drcordell

You have missed my entire point Walter. You keep putting the onus on the Palestinians. Well guess what, you’re going to wait a long fucking time for shit to change there. The point is, at what point does Israel figure out that they have to get this situation in order before it truly becomes an existential threat to their state.

Israel has figured that out. That is why they are so desperate for an agreement with the PA. But Bibi wants to do it smartly.

The trouble is, the Palestinians too have figured it out, and think that if they just wait long enough, Israel will implode.

Both sides think time is on their side, but I think the Israelis have enough fear of the demographics/international isolation to be wanting to do something about it. The Palestinians, meanwhile (West Bankers) are living increasingly well.

472 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:29:17pm

re: #328 albusteve

agreed, buts it’s good to know where the shit piles are

Shit pile? I’ve never been called a shit pile before. Updinged for originality.

473 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:29:20pm

re: #465 drcordell

Am I wrong in stating that as Israel’s methodology? I was under the impression that was their stated operating procedure. Meet a display of violence with overwhelming force, and hope it serves as a deterrent. Am I wrong there?

If you think Israel has used “overwhelming force” in dealing with Gaza, then you have no fucking clue what “overwhelming force” is, or what the Israelis could actually do to Gaza if they really did use “overwhelming force.”

474 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:29:22pm

re: #461 Racer X

I did not look. I have no idea who is agreeing with Cordell.

He’s said some stuff I agree with on issues that have nothing to do with Israel or Flotzilla. Maybe the HCR debate? I remember agreeing with him on stuff relating to HC.

But we had a poster here a couple days ago going all ‘it’s very telling and says a lot about a person by watching who they don’t upding and who they do and blah blah” and it was really a ridiculous notion and hence Stanley’s witch hunt thing.

475 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:29:24pm

re: #430 drcordell

You are shocked that third-world politics may be completely corrupt and managed by forces outside the control of the average citizen? Really? You can’t wrap your head around the fact that Arafat was not acting for anyone’s interest but his own and those of his benefactors?

That, of course, is why he is so unpopular now that he’s dead. Why, I bet you won’t find a single picture of him in a home or business, from Nablus to Hebron.

re: #437 drcordell

Let me guess, you are SHOCKED, JUST SHOCKED, that the Somalis keep letting those crazed warlords take control of their country! Why don’t they just put a nice guy in power for once!

Warlords are not elected. Hamas was.

476 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:29:37pm

re: #466 windsagio

oh no, if you’re wrong about one subject you’re a fool and wrong about everything!

THERE IS NO TRY IN TRIBALISM

477 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:29:49pm

re: #465 drcordell

Am I wrong in stating that as Israel’s methodology? I was under the impression that was their stated operating procedure. Meet a display of violence with overwhelming force, and hope it serves as a deterrent. Am I wrong there?

very

See
littlegreenfootballs.com

and
littlegreenfootballs.com

And answer me this. In all these years, which actor in this scene as negotiatied in good faith, Israel or the PLO/ HAMAS/ Pali leadership

478 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:29:56pm

My Wu-Tang name is Electable Warlord

479 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:29:57pm

re: #466 windsagio

oh no, if you’re wrong about one subject you’re a fool and wrong about everything!

only in your case so far

480 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:30:00pm

re: #472 darthstar

Sad as it is, that makes me laugh every single time.

481 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:30:02pm

re: #472 darthstar

Shit pile? I’ve never been called a shit pile before. Updinged for originality.

Yes you have… keep up with the insults please.

482 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:30:27pm

re: #475 Cato the Elder

You missed a sarc tag.

483 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:31:03pm

re: #411 JasonA

Hey, how the hell did Cordell get into positive karma? And 1,000, no less!

I like just about everything else Cordell says, but he’s sure as hell pissing me off now. (I don’t expect him to care about that.)

484 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:31:04pm

re: #422 drcordell

I’ve been clattering away answering questions for my past few posts. Now I want to pose a few. How about someone tells me exactly how they see this situation playing out for Israel?

How does Israel intend to end the conflict with it’s current course of action? When will the methodology of “you launch a rocket I blow up your whole neighborhood” start seeing dividends?

Israel has never acted like that. Go Away Gordon.

485 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:31:05pm

Watching the BP robot mission.

Awesome!

486 abolitionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:31:09pm

re: #396 Spare O’Lake

Worse than that, a Turkish jihadist organization called IHH was apparently the main “sponsor” of the operation. They are apparently well-known to US Homeland Security.

(Recycling some previously posted stuff)

There’s also a clear connection to Iran, in the person of
Binali Yildirim - Turkish Transportation Minister In Iran

Published: 3/2/2009

TEHRAN - Turkish Transportation Minister Binali Yildirim said on Saturday that development of relations between Turkey and Iran, which were on an important place in world trade, would contribute to the regional peace.
Yildirim, who is currently in Tehran to attend the 6th Iran-Turkey Transportation Joint Commission meeting, met with Iranian Transportation Minister Hamed Behbahani.
Yildirim said that Turkey, as a door to Europe, and Iran, as a door to Asia, were completing each other, and the two countries were on an important route in world trade.
He said that development of Turkey-Iran relations on every area would contribute to peace, security, prosperity and stability in the region.

Bulent Yildirim, head of Turkey’s Islamic and pro-Palestinian rights group, The Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief (IHH), talks to activists on a Turkish ship as they sail in the international waters of the Mediterranean Sea as part of a humanitarian convoy May 30, 2010.

487 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:31:09pm

re: #472 darthstar

Shit pile? I’ve never been called a shit pile before. Updinged for originality.

now you are a dopey shitpile….congratulations, quite the achievement

488 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:32:13pm

re: #483 marjoriemoon

I like just about everything else Cordell says, but he’s sure as hell pissing me off now. (I don’t expect him to care about that.)

You must have missed the memo. We are supposed to agree or disagree on EVERYTHING based on our tribe.

489 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:32:13pm

re: #472 darthstar

Shit pile? I’ve never been called a shit pile before. Updinged for originality.

Glad you can take bad criticism with style.

*Respect.

490 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:32:26pm

re: #475 Cato the Elder

Warlords are not elected. Hamas was.

In a contested election where the only other party running against them was a failed, corrupt government that had achieved nothing.

491 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:32:29pm

re: #481 Walter L. Newton

Yes you have… keep up with the insults please.

Nope…shit pile hadn’t been used until today.

492 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:33:15pm

re: #490 drcordell

In a contested election where the only other party running against them was a failed, corrupt government that had achieved nothing.

too bad…so what?…that’s the Jews problem?

493 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:33:20pm

re: #491 darthstar

Nope…shit pile hadn’t been used until today.

Is that at all different from a dung heap?

494 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:33:29pm

re: #465 drcordell

Am I wrong in stating that as Israel’s methodology? I was under the impression that was their stated operating procedure. Meet a display of violence with overwhelming force, and hope it serves as a deterrent. Am I wrong there?

Yes you are. Israel has shown more self-restraint than any country in all of human history would have shown in similar circumstances.

495 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:33:32pm

re: #490 drcordell

In a contested election where the only other party running against them was a failed, corrupt government that had achieved nothing.

The trouble as I’ve stated a few times here, is that in Palestinian society there is no opening for an alternative.

Anyone who tries is killed or absorbed into the existing groups.

Or is worse than what we already know, like the Salafist groups in Gaza.

496 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:33:36pm

Is it just me or has the flow of oil slowed considerably?

497 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:34:00pm

re: #490 drcordell

In a contested election where the only other party running against them was a failed, corrupt government that had achieved nothing.

What exactly is your point? How does that mitigate the stated genocidal intent of Hamas?

498 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:34:10pm

re: #496 Racer X

Is it just me or has the flow of oil slowed considerably?

I lost the link. Re-post please!

499 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:34:19pm

Interesting to see this conversation on LGF. I’m glad to see some things haven’t changed from the old days.

500 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:34:22pm

re: #491 darthstar

Nope…shit pile hadn’t been used until today.

if you follow them, they lead right back up your posting history…you did it to yourself ya boob

501 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:35:04pm

re: #499 Killgore Trout

Interesting to see this conversation on LGF. I’m glad to see some things haven’t changed from the old days.

Right is right, when even the left agrees!!

502 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:35:21pm

re: #498 sattv4u2

I lost the link. Re-post please!

BP Robots in action!

503 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:35:45pm

re: #502 Racer X

BP Robots in action!

thanks

504 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:35:56pm

Comment of the week. Month, maybe.

505 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:35:58pm

re: #489 Joo-LiZ

Glad you can take bad criticism with style.

*Respect.

It’s not bad criticism, it’s just name calling. I stopped getting mad about that in the sixth grade.

506 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:36:07pm

re: #494 Spare O’Lake

Yes you are. Israel has shown more self-restraint than any country in all of human history would have shown in similar circumstances.

Not saying it’s not justified. Dropping a few bombs from an F-16 certainly beats sending in soldiers who could get shot. I’m not criticizing Israel for the strategy’s justification at all. My point is that it’s simply not effective counter-terrorism strategy. For every terrorist you kill you’ve just created 10 more with collateral damage.

507 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:36:18pm

re: #499 Killgore Trout

And even the troll hammer needs to be swung now and then…

508 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:36:25pm

re: #496 Racer X

Is it just me or has the flow of oil slowed considerably?

From your keyboard to the Almighty.

509 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:36:27pm

re: #491 darthstar

Nope…shit pile hadn’t been used until today.

Ok… I was almost sure that you had won that appellation already… it’s hard to keep up…

510 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:36:36pm

re: #504 researchok

Comment of the week. Month, maybe.

Directed at KT 499

511 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:36:58pm

re: #496 Racer X

Is it just me or has the flow of oil slowed considerably?

It’s just off-camera.

512 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:37:01pm

re: #482 Joo-LiZ

You missed a sarc tag.

Nope. I trust the Lizard Intelligentsia to get my drift without them.

513 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:37:16pm

re: #505 darthstar

It’s not bad criticism, it’s just name calling. I stopped getting mad about that in the sixth grade.

In case it’s not clear (kinda ambiguous) by “bad” I’m saying it’s not a good or constructive criticism. It is just poor form to namecall.

I didn’t mean it was harsh criticism.

514 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:37:18pm

re: #505 darthstar

It’s not bad criticism, it’s just name calling. I stopped getting mad about that in the sixth grade.

/but you still got kooties…

515 freetoken  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:37:20pm

re: #502 Racer X

BP Robots in action!

You know, that sentence would mean something totally different if you had linked to a Japanese video…

516 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:37:29pm

re: #499 Killgore Trout

Interesting to see this conversation on LGF. I’m glad to see some things haven’t changed from the old days.

Listen, I’m a true blue lefty but I can’t suggest that Israel needs to let ships freely sail to Gaza when the fact is that they’ve been carrying rockets in the past. And that’s what this incident is all about: the blockade. Should it be in place? I see no answer other than yes.

517 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:38:04pm

re: #499 Killgore Trout

Interesting to see this conversation on LGF. I’m glad to see some things haven’t changed from the old days.

dig that…and they won’t with certain subjects…I rarely get into this stuff, but the ignorance is so rampant….like fish in a barrel

518 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:38:04pm

re: #509 Walter L. Newton

Ok… I was almost sure that you had won that appellation already… it’s hard to keep up…

It’s too bad I haven’t catalogued them all…I could post it on a google doc so Cato and Steve could have a list to choose from…I’m sure it pains them to come up with new witticisms.

519 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:38:20pm

Aight I gotta cook some dinner. Hope everyone has a good night!

520 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:38:21pm

re: #506 drcordell

I have a simple question… should Israel have let those ships pass and go on to Gaza?

521 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:38:24pm

re: #490 drcordell

In a contested election where the only other party running against them was a failed, corrupt government that had achieved nothing.

You really don’t understand what’s going on here. Hamas was Fatah’s ENEMY. These are the guys that hated Arafat and were more dangerous!

522 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:38:37pm

re: #175 Bagua

They just did the left picture below, next they will do the right picture below.

Image: Riser_Removal_large.jpg

Then they will put the cap on, below.

Image: Containment_Contingency_Option_large.jpg

Looks like they are getting ready to make the second cut.

523 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:38:53pm

re: #514 brookly red

/but you still got kooties…

Now I haven’t been told I have kooties since the second grade…THEM’S FIGHTIN’ WORDS, mister.

524 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:38:54pm

re: #506 drcordell

Not saying it’s not justified. Dropping a few bombs from an F-16 certainly beats sending in soldiers who could get shot. I’m not criticizing Israel for the strategy’s justification at all. My point is that it’s simply not effective counter-terrorism strategy. For every terrorist you kill you’ve just created 10 more with collateral damage.

still waiting for your plan to save the ME

525 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:39:01pm

I’m watching “High Fidelity”.

What a good movie.

526 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:39:23pm

re: #509 Walter L. Newton

Ok… I was almost sure that you had won that appellation already… it’s hard to keep up…

We need shiny badges next to our names like HuffPo has on their commenters now.

(No, we really don’t.)

527 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:40:19pm

re: #460 Charles

Uh huh.

How many times have we been here before?

And what happens when Israel makes another concession, and it’s rejected by the Palestinians?

Exactly what would be enough? Apparently, handing over control of the Gaza Strip wasn’t enough. The Gaza Strip actually has gorgeous beaches — it could be a fantastic tourist destination. Gaza could be prospering beyond the wildest dreams of the people who live there now.

But they’d have to actually put some effort into building that prosperous society in order for that to happen. There are plenty of people and groups who would support that, if they ever saw any sign of it.

Don’t hold your breath.

Hamas could not care less about the Palestinian people. The surrounding Arab states could not care less about the Palestinian people. You could make a pretty good case, in fact, that the only people who actually give a shit about the Palestinians are the Israelis. Check out how much humanitarian and other aid is given to the Palestinian people by Israel.

I’m sure there are Palestinian people who are utterly sick of the violence and want it to stop. But they are not the majority, and they are not in charge.

The thing is, I don’t think there are. And secondly, I really hardly care. Israel gives them aid, including medicine and hospital and all that’s fine. I completely agree. But they are reared with indoctrination from birth. They may not like what happens to them, but they either can’t or won’t stop it. Or quite frankly, they simply believe it all.

The ones who get out become are prosperous and educated. There is no hope for them to stay and I imagine they figure that out very early on.

528 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:40:24pm

re: #526 JasonA

We need shiny badges next to our names like HuffPo has on their commenters now.

(No, we really don’t.)

ahem…

we don’t need no stinkin badges.

529 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:40:58pm

re: #513 Joo-LiZ

In case it’s not clear (kinda ambiguous) by “bad” I’m saying it’s not a good or constructive criticism. It is just poor form to namecall.

I didn’t mean it was harsh criticism.

No worries. I like the people here (even Cato and Steve and at times Mandy)…I just have a different perspective on the Israeli conflict, but I think we all share the same desire that it end some time in our lifetimes (albeit by different means…I’m holding out for a peaceful resolution, myself).

530 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:41:03pm

re: #525 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The book’s better - but at least they got the music bit right…

531 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:41:11pm

re: #483 marjoriemoon

I like just about everything else Cordell says, but he’s sure as hell pissing me off now. (I don’t expect him to care about that.)

You just can’t accept legitimate criticism of Israel.

/

532 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:41:42pm

re: #528 brookly red

ahem…

we don’t need no stinkin badges.

I want one of those fancy RedState warrior badges…they’re so militaristic, I’ll bet chicks dig them.
/

533 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:41:44pm

re: #530 lawhawk

But! But! The book was British!

534 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:42:08pm

re: #518 darthstar

It’s too bad I haven’t catalogued them all…I could post it on a google doc so Cato and Steve could have a list to choose from…I’m sure it pains them to come up with new witticisms.

I don’t need you to stimulate my creativity…is there anything else you need to try and elevate your status about?…I could care less about you

535 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:42:28pm

re: #529 darthstar

(albeit by different means…I’m holding out for a peaceful resolution, myself).

I’d argue that everyone else wants that, too. Except for the people actually in charge of Gaza.

536 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:42:52pm

re: #525 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I’m watching “High Fidelity”.

What a good movie.

I’m watching Hoosiers on TMC…I’ve seen it like 10 times.. This will likely be my last time I see it Indiana…
Someday I’ll be in a Wheelchair with a blanket on me watching Hoosiers from a retirement home..’ I used to live in Indiana!’
Sure you did..Shut old man and watch the dang movie…

537 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:42:54pm

re: #534 albusteve

I don’t need you to stimulate my creativity…is there anything else you need to try and elevate your status about?…I could care less about you

Oh, you care…I know you do. Don’t be silly.

538 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:42:58pm

re: #520 Walter L. Newton

I have a simple question… should Israel have let those ships pass and go on to Gaza?

If they want to keep up their blockade, of course not. They should have figured out a way to stop the ships without raiding them with commandos. Because it was obvious from the start that this entire “mission” was nothing but a giant PR stunt to stir up anti-Israeli press regarding the blockade. And Israel played right into their hands by shooting 10 people. Whether you support the blockade or not, Israel fucked this one up.

539 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:43:27pm

re: #527 marjoriemoon

The thing is, I don’t think there are. And secondly, I really hardly care. Israel gives them aid, including medicine and hospital and all that’s fine. I completely agree. But they are reared with indoctrination from birth. They may not like what happens to them, but they either can’t or won’t stop it. Or quite frankly, they simply believe it all.

The ones who get out become are prosperous and educated. There is no hope for them to stay and I imagine they figure that out very early on.

You might appreciate this: Don’t Know Much About History, Pissant?

540 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:43:30pm

rre: #529 darthstar

No worries. I like the people here (even Cato and Steve and at times Mandy)…I just have a different perspective on the Israeli conflict, but I think we all share the same desire that it end some time in our lifetimes (albeit by different means…I’m holding out for a peaceful resolution, myself).

I think everyone here is hoping for a peaceful resolution.

541 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:43:43pm

re: #470 Walter L. Newton

The threat is not existential. The threat is REAL…

“During its searches of the Mavi Marmara on Tuesday, the military also discovered a cache of bulletproof vests and night-vision goggles, as well as gas masks. On Monday morning, at least nine foreign activists were killed during the navy’s takeover of the Mavi Marmara, which was trying to break Israel’s blockade of the Gaza Strip.”

[Link: www.jpost.com…]

That’s a pretty major find. The only reason to carry stuff like that is to fight Israelis.

542 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:43:47pm

drcordell forgets the fact that Israel has serious trouble with Gazan Palis’ in stark contrast to the other Palis. The West Bank Palestinians. We can observe the difference. West Bank-No rockets=calm and gradual successes. Electricity, food schools. Hamas run Gaza, Not so calm, not so much electricity and the schools from what I can see are not so important.

Just observe what cooperation can bring as compared to the old Hamas meme. Israel is the problem. well Hamas is the problem. West Bank shows us push them out and everyone else is ahead by far.

So Israel is the one that must change? Not by the obvious examples offered by reality.

543 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:44:06pm

re: #525 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I’m watching “High Fidelity”.

What a good movie.

Oh it’s such genius.

COSBY SWEATER! COSSSSSSSBY

544 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:44:11pm

re: #540 Racer X

rre: #529 darthstar

I think everyone here is hoping for a peaceful resolution.

and a lottery win…

545 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:44:27pm

re: #520 Walter L. Newton

I have a simple question… should Israel have let those ships pass and go on to Gaza?

If they had, this would have been a one day story. Now it’s going to drag out for weeks, if not longer.

546 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:44:31pm

re: #538 drcordell

Whether you support the blockade or not, Israel fucked this one up.

I’m sure the dead 10 are comforted by that “fact”

547 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:44:51pm

re: #460 Charles

The Gaza Strip actually has gorgeous beaches — it could be a fantastic tourist destination. Gaza could be prospering beyond the wildest dreams of the people who live there now.

But they’d have to actually put some effort into building that prosperous society in order for that to happen. There are plenty of people and groups who would support that, if they ever saw any sign of it.

And that is the real tragedy.

Imagine if the Gazans had woken up the day after the withdrawal in 2005 and said, “Wait, what? Where did all the Jews go? Hey, look, everybody, the Jews are gone. The Jews are gone! And look - they left us all this cool infrastructure, with really nice state-of-the-art greenhouses and shit. And…and…instruction manuals on how to used them. I know, lets grow vegetables and sell them to our brethren in the West Bank. And we could build hotels and attractions and get our many supporters to come here and spend euros and dollars and dinars on food and entertainment. And, I betcha, if we put up a few factories and learned to make high-tech stuff like cellphone chips and keyboards, people might actually buy stuff from us!”

Instead, they looted everything, destroyed the greenhouses to get rid of the Jew-cooties, and went right back to living on international handouts and wishing Israel would die.

If all the Jews magically disappeared from Israel tomorrow, the entire place would be the world’s biggest shithole full of misery and welfare bums within a week.

548 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:44:56pm

Drive by post…

Wow Charles, I don’t know how you do it. You’ve got the patience of a friggin’ saint, I tells ya. Good on you for that. Cheers.

549 drogheda  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:45:04pm

re: #522 Racer X

Looks like they are getting ready to make the second cut.

Yes I noticed that. Looks like they’ve got the cutter going but it does not appear as if they’ve begun cutting into the riser pipe yet though.

550 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:45:11pm

re: #545 darthstar

If they had, this would have been a one day story. Now it’s going to drag out for weeks, if not longer.

so !?!?!

551 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:45:18pm

re: #528 brookly red

ahem…

we don’t need no stinkin badges.

I could just so see that coming.

552 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:45:29pm

re: #520 Walter L. Newton

I have a simple question… should Israel have let those ships pass and go on to Gaza?

That was never an option, and Turkey knew it.

553 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:45:57pm

re: #552 Spare O’Lake

That was never an option, and Turkey knew it.

It was on the previous eight flotillas.

554 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:46:02pm

re: #547 Cato the Elder

And that is the real tragedy.

Imagine if the Gazans had woken up the day after the withdrawal in 2005 and said, “Wait, what? Where did all the Jews go? Hey, look, everybody, the Jews are gone. The Jews are gone! And look - they left us all this cool infrastructure, with really nice state-of-the-art greenhouses and shit. And…and…instruction manuals on how to used them. I know, lets grow vegetables and sell them to our brethren in the West Bank. And we could build hotels and attractions and get our many supporters to come here and spend euros and dollars and dinars on food and entertainment. And, I betcha, if we put up a few factories and learned to make high-tech stuff like cellphone chips and keyboards, people might actually buy stuff from us!”

Instead, they looted everything, destroyed the greenhouses to get rid of the Jew-cooties, and went right back to living on international handouts and wishing Israel would die.

If all the Jews magically disappeared from Israel tomorrow, the entire place would be the world’s biggest shithole full of misery and welfare bums within a week.

Yes. Every single Gazan decided to take those actions. It was a completely unified response. 100% participation.

555 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:46:04pm

re: #551 Alouette

I could just so see that coming.

hence the ahem

556 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:46:11pm

re: #545 darthstar

If they had, this would have been a one day story. Now it’s going to drag out for weeks, if not longer.

with a special thanks to people like you…air headed idealists….you are part of the problem, rather than the solution…go chew on that

557 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:46:14pm

re: #547 Cato the Elder

Detroit?

/// (please send sarc tags to…)

558 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:46:46pm

re: #538 drcordell

If they want to keep up their blockade, of course not. They should have figured out a way to stop the ships without raiding them with commandos. Because it was obvious from the start that this entire “mission” was nothing but a giant PR stunt to stir up anti-Israeli press regarding the blockade. And Israel played right into their hands by shooting 10 people. Whether you support the blockade or not, Israel fucked this one up.

They specifically rejected the most commonly bandered about option for the very reason same concerns everyone else thinks it would have been a good idea.

Meanwhile, a senior Israel Defense Forces officer also spoke at the committee meeting on Tuesday, explaining the details of the IDF’s operation on the Gaza flotilla on Monday.

He said that the army had decided against sabotaging a ship in the Gaza flotilla at the center of Monday’s deadly clashes, out of fear that the vessel would be stranded in the middle of the ocean and at risk of a humanitarian crisis.

They were not expecting the violence they got. That was a likely intelligence failure, but it is a separate issue. The tactic itself was legitimate, and worked for the other 5 ‘actual’ “peace” ships.

559 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:46:51pm

re: #545 darthstar

Nope - because the alternative would have been still more ships and more attempts to run the blockade - and not with humanitarian aid either.

560 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:46:54pm

re: #553 darthstar

I’m really starting to think that it had to do with a dick-swinging competition in the Israeli military or government.

561 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:47:14pm

re: #553 darthstar

It was on the previous eight flotillas.

Yup. If they don’t kill 10 people this shit doesn’t even make the C block of the evening news. Instead it’s a bigger headline than the oil leak for the next few days.

562 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:47:38pm

re: #561 drcordell

Yup. If they don’t kill 10 people this shit doesn’t even make the C block of the evening news. Instead it’s a bigger headline than the oil leak for the next few days.

and again , so !?!?!?!

563 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:47:39pm

re: #538 drcordell

If they want to keep up their blockade, of course not. They should have figured out a way to stop the ships without raiding them with commandos. Because it was obvious from the start that this entire “mission” was nothing but a giant PR stunt to stir up anti-Israeli press regarding the blockade. And Israel played right into their hands by shooting 10 people. Whether you support the blockade or not, Israel fucked this one up.


tactically at best…it’s a wonder there were not 30 KIAs…you are truly unmpressive

564 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:47:46pm

re: #560 windsagio

I’m really starting to think that it had to do with a dick-swinging competition in the Israeli military or government.

/you need a cold shower or something…

565 simoom  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:47:48pm

re: #502 Racer X

BP Robots in action!

Needs sound effects :P.

566 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:48:12pm

re: #565 simoom

Needs sound effects :P.

glug ,,,, glug glugg ,,glug

567 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:48:21pm

re: #556 albusteve

with a special thanks to people like you…air headed idealists…you are part of the problem, rather than the solution…go chew on that

I’m in California. The closest I’ve come to Israel in this conflict is posting here. I advocate peace and abhor war…all war. How is calling for both sides to lay down their weapons being part of the problem?

568 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:48:24pm

re: #554 drcordell

Yes. Every single Gazan decided to take those actions. It was a completely unified response. 100% participation.

So. Who does Israel negotiate with?

569 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:48:48pm

re: #560 windsagio

I’m really starting to think that it had to do with a dick-swinging competition in the Israeli military or government.

no kidding?…why am I not surprised?

570 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:49:20pm

re: #538 drcordell

If they want to keep up their blockade, of course not. They should have figured out a way to stop the ships without raiding them with commandos. Because it was obvious from the start that this entire “mission” was nothing but a giant PR stunt to stir up anti-Israeli press regarding the blockade. And Israel played right into their hands by shooting 10 people. Whether you support the blockade or not, Israel fucked this one up.

What the Hell were they supposed to do? Let the Islamists beat them to death? The Israeli boarding party tried to avoid violence. As usual, the Islamists replied with a murderous assault, forcing the Israelis to defend themselves. The same thing we’ve been talking about all night.

571 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:49:23pm

re: #558 Joo-LiZ

They were not expecting the violence they got. That was a likely intelligence failure, but it is a separate issue. The tactic itself was legitimate, and worked for the other 5 ‘actual’ “peace” ships.

Bullshit. You’re telling me Israel wouldn’t have been able to tow the ship into harbor if they fouled the prop? Go on, pull the other one.

572 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:49:36pm

re: #567 darthstar

I’m in California. The closest I’ve come to Israel in this conflict is posting here. I advocate peace and abhor war…all war. How is calling for both sides to lay down their weapons being part of the problem?

because appeasement gets even more people killed.

573 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:49:38pm

re: #564 brookly red

You gotta admit, that’s freakin’ Hot!

574 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:49:39pm

Rob: Liking both Marvin Gaye and Art Garfunkel is like supporting both the Israelis and the Palestinians.
-High Fidelity

575 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:50:00pm

re: #567 darthstar

I’m in California. The closest I’ve come to Israel in this conflict is posting here. I advocate peace and abhor war…all war. How is calling for both sides to lay down their weapons being part of the problem?

It’s an old saw, but worth asking

If tomorrow, Hamas lay down their weapons, what would Israel do

If tomorrow, Israel lay down her weapons, what would Hamas do?

576 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:50:03pm

re: #567 darthstar

I’m in California. The closest I’ve come to Israel in this conflict is posting here. I advocate peace and abhor war…all war. How is calling for both sides to lay down their weapons being part of the problem?

If the Arabs lay down their weapons, there would be peace.
If the Israelis lay down their weapons, there would be no more Israel.

Clear enough?

577 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:50:05pm

re: #539 researchok

You might appreciate this: Don’t Know Much About History, Pissant?

Good article. I’ll read it more carefully.

Part of the problem is that the world cuddles these terrorists. It’s what the Gazans do best. Get compassion from the world. If the rest of the free world would condemn them, their treatment of women and children, their resistance to build a thriving society, their complete immorality of stealing the UNs money for their own benefit, then we’d get somewhere. Their society would break down from the inside out.

578 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:50:25pm

re: #560 windsagio

I’m really starting to think that it had to do with a dick-swinging competition in the Israeli military or government.

Those dick-swingers could have easily just sank the ships and been done with it. The didn’t because they are not ruthless bastards, unlike the leaders in Gaza.

579 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:50:26pm

re: #561 drcordell

Yup. If they don’t kill 10 people this shit doesn’t even make the C block of the evening news. Instead it’s a bigger headline than the oil leak for the next few days.

You make it sound like you think Israel WANTED to kill 10 people. Is that what you think?

580 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:50:47pm

re: #567 darthstar

I’m in California. The closest I’ve come to Israel in this conflict is posting here. I advocate peace and abhor war…all war. How is calling for both sides to lay down their weapons being part of the problem?

because it’s impossible, that’s why….you are living in a fairy land if you think the Jews can relax and groove to the Mullahs and their Pali attack dogs…and I’m being nice

581 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:51:17pm

re: #579 Joo-LiZ

You make it sound like you think Israel WANTED to kill 10 people. Is that what you think?

If Israel WANTED, they could have sunk the whole freaking fleet.

582 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:51:20pm

re: #570 Dark_Falcon

What the Hell were they supposed to do? Let the Islamists beat them to death? The Israeli boarding party tried to avoid violence. As usual, the Islamists replied with a murderous assault, forcing the Israelis to defend themselves. The same thing we’ve been talking about all night.

You don’t helicopter commandos onto the deck of the ship in international waters. You figure out a better plan, because you realize that sending commandos onto the deck of a ship filled with hundreds of people has the possibility of becoming a clusterfuck.

583 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:51:27pm

re: #567 darthstar

I’m in California. The closest I’ve come to Israel in this conflict is posting here. I advocate peace and abhor war…all war. How is calling for both sides to lay down their weapons being part of the problem?

Because it shows you’ve been smoking to much powdered unicorn horn.

584 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:51:37pm

re: #576 Alouette

If the Arabs lay down their weapons, there would be peace.
If the Israelis lay down their weapons, there would be no more Israel.

Clear enough?

Great T-shirt. Shitty peace plan.

585 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:51:38pm

re: #576 Alouette

gmta,,, (575)

Although I would like to see darthstar answer mine!

586 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:51:39pm

re: #554 drcordell

Yes. Every single Gazan decided to take those actions. It was a completely unified response. 100% participation.

Where are these peaceful Gazans you speak of?

587 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:51:58pm

re: #578 Racer X

Well that would be nearly suicidal insanity to do that, so I’m glad they had the wisdom to refrain.

588 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:51:59pm

re: #580 albusteve

because it’s impossible, that’s why…you are living in a fairy land if you think the Jews can relax and groove to the Mullahs and their Pali attack dogs…and I’m being nice

why can’t we all just get alo BLAM that why.

589 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:52:04pm

re: #571 drcordell

Bullshit. You’re telling me Israel wouldn’t have been able to tow the ship into harbor if they fouled the prop? Go on, pull the other one.

you are literally too stupid to insult

590 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:52:30pm

re: #586 marjoriemoon

ARGH! MONOLITHIC PALISTINIANS STRIKE AGAIN!

591 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:52:47pm

re: #574 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Rob: Liking both Marvin Gaye and Art Garfunkel is like supporting both the Israelis and the Palestinians.
-High Fidelity

Barry: How about the Jesus and Mary Chain?

Barry’s Customer: They always seemed…

Barry: They always seemed what? They always seemed really great is what they always seemed. They picked up where your precious Echo left off, and you’re sitting around complaining about no more Echo albums. I can’t believe you don’t own this fucking record. (tosses the record to the customer and walks away) That’s insane. Jesus.

592 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:53:13pm

re: #589 Aceofwhat?

you are literally too stupid to insult

ummm,,,, I think you just did ,, and wonderfully, I may add!

593 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:53:13pm

re: #581 Alouette

If Israel WANTED, they could have sunk the whole freaking fleet.

Yes, I want to know what drcordell thinks, though.

It sounds to me like he is blaming Israel for the incident on the Flotilla, and linking it with his view of Israeli disproportionate response.

I want to clarify if that’s what he is saying.

594 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:53:20pm

re: #589 Aceofwhat?

you are literally too stupid to insult

Awesome. Maybe I can get a job planning counter-flotilla operations for the Israeli Navy!

595 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:53:29pm

honestly..I do not recall this level of stupidity on any thread, ever, here at LGF….astounding head up assness…just astounding…no wonder Israel has so few friends in the world with all these clean cut dopes running around posting this sort of disconnect

596 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:53:49pm

re: #589 Aceofwhat?

-for being mean, but + for being mean cleverly :D

That’s a hell of a line!

597 Jerk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:53:55pm

re: #582 drcordell

You figure out a better plan, because you realize that sending commandos onto the deck of a ship filled with hundreds of people has the possibility of becoming a clusterfuck.

You’re right, they should have known not to mess with those peaceful sailors.

598 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:53:56pm

re: #594 drcordell

Awesome. Maybe I can get a job planning counter-flotilla operations for the Israeli Navy!

Nahh ,, their plan worked

Yours, not so much

599 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:54:38pm

They played an interview on NPR with the Knesset (sp?) member who was on board the flotilla (don’t know her name). She’s able to speak because she has diplomatic immunity in Israel and as such wasn’t arrested. She only commented on the dead she saw. She said two were shot in the head and others had body shots. The Israelis are saying they only shot at the legs… She also said Israel was being very selective on which video they released (hell, I’d do the same in their shoes).

I don’t expect this to ever be fully resolved, but as more eye-witness accounts come out as flotilla members are released from jail, the story will continue to change as the accusations and denials fly.

600 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:54:40pm

re: #594 drcordell

Awesome. Maybe I can get a job planning counter-flotilla operations for the Israeli Navy!

i’m sure they’ll love the part where you explain how it’s all their fault

601 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:55:13pm

re: #572 brookly red

because appeasement gets even more people killed.

Appeasement? Who’s appeasing whom?

602 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:55:21pm

re: #593 Joo-LiZ

Yes, I want to know what drcordell thinks, though.

It sounds to me like he is blaming Israel for the incident on the Flotilla, and linking it with his view of Israeli disproportionate response.

I want to clarify if that’s what he is saying.

If Israel wants to continue their blockade, they were certainly justified in taking the action they did. But that doesn’t mean it was wise. Or helped served the goals that they seek to fulfill.

The activists should have known this shit happens running a military blockade. The Israelis should have known the activists wanted something exactly like this to happen to further their cause.

603 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:55:32pm

re: #595 albusteve

honestly..I do not recall this level of stupidity on any thread, ever, here at LGF…astounding head up assness…just astounding…no wonder Israel has so few friends in the world with all these clean cut dopes running around posting this sort of disconnect

I gotta admit - the past few days have been an eye-opener.

604 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:56:06pm

re: #599 darthstar

Member of the Knesset == Self-hating Jew, right?!

605 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:56:17pm

re: #582 drcordell

You don’t helicopter commandos onto the deck of the ship in international waters. You figure out a better plan, because you realize that sending commandos onto the deck of a ship filled with hundreds of people has the possibility of becoming a clusterfuck.

international waters has nothing to do with it…wtf are you bawling about now?….as for the clusterfuck, why so?….these were peaceniks, right?…good old stupid Israel appears to have taken these assholes at their word….9 dead?, pffft!…they should consider themselves lucky….and address the international waters crap once more

606 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:56:26pm

re: #596 windsagio

-for being mean, but + for being mean cleverly :D

That’s a hell of a line!

i stole it from The Hangover…quoting movie lines seems to take most of the venom out of an insult, IMHO, and i’m trying to add wit to the conversation!

607 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:56:28pm

re: #593 Joo-LiZ

Yes, I want to know what drcordell thinks, though.

.


Hell, I want to know what Dr. Cordell drinks!

608 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:56:41pm

re: #553 darthstar

It was on the previous eight flotillas.

The last ones were diverted to other ports.

609 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:56:53pm

re: #606 Aceofwhat?

i stole it from The Hangover…quoting movie lines seems to take most of the venom out of an insult, IMHO, and i’m trying to add wit to the conversation!

I have to see that movie, it looks like fun :D

610 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:56:57pm

re: #604 windsagio

Member of the Knesset == Self-hating Jew, right?!

not sure, there are Arab members too…

611 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:57:00pm

re: #607 JasonA

Hell, I want to know what Dr. Cordell drinks!

too much!

612 drcordell  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:57:28pm

re: #607 JasonA

Hell, I want to know what Dr. Cordell drinks!

So far a gin and tonic and two brooklyn lagers.

613 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:57:31pm

Facts is stubborn things.

614 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:57:40pm

re: #577 marjoriemoon

Good article. I’ll read it more carefully.

Part of the problem is that the world cuddles these terrorists. It’s what the Gazans do best. Get compassion from the world. If the rest of the free world would condemn them, their treatment of women and children, their resistance to build a thriving society, their complete immorality of stealing the UNs money for their own benefit, then we’d get somewhere. Their society would break down from the inside out.

3 pointer.

From Ghazi Hamad:

We have surrendered to it until it has become the master and is obeyed everywhere – in the house, the neighborhood, the family, the clan, the faction, and the university.

…violence has taken away the language of brotherhood and replaced it with arms.. It has stolen our unity and divided us into two camps, or three, or ten.”

“Shouldn’t we be ashamed of this ugly behavior which scandalizes us before our people and before the world?” he asked.

615 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:57:48pm

re: #607 JasonA

Hell, I want to know what Dr. Cordell drinks!

re: #611 sattv4u2

too much!

Oh ,, wait ,, you meant type and brand ,,, nevahmind!!

616 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:57:57pm

re: #602 drcordell

If Israel wants to continue their blockade, they were certainly justified in taking the action they did. But that doesn’t mean it was wise. Or helped served the goals that they seek to fulfill.

The activists should have known this shit happens running a military blockade. The Israelis should have known the activists wanted something exactly like this to happen to further their cause.

I’ll agree that it turned out badly. Israel knows that.

I stand by my statement that the IDF was clearly caught off guard, but that commandeering the ship is a legitimate tactic, as evidenced by the success of the other 5 vessels.

It’s easy for us to say “they should have come up with something smarter” with the benefit of hindsight, but what they could do, I don’t know.

There are 2 more boats en route. We’ll see how Israel handles those.

617 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:58:09pm

re: #601 darthstar

Appeasement? Who’s appeasing whom?

i think he means the part where you said “there should be no war ever”.

that is a short-sighted statement if there aren’t any caveats (and maybe you have caveats…i don’t want to presume too much).

some wars are quite justifiable, and even good. when true evil exists, and makes war on you, the only good response is to fight back.

618 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:58:45pm

re: #609 WindUpBird

I have to see that movie, it looks like fun :D

HILARIOUS. It’s light fare, but very entertaining.

619 ryannon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:58:48pm

re: #571 drcordell

Bullshit. You’re telling me Israel wouldn’t have been able to tow the ship into harbor if they fouled the prop? Go on, pull the other one.

It’s been mentioned here earlier that you don’t ‘foul the prop’ of a ship of that size in movement.

620 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:59:03pm

I consider this thread Rogered….
fuck these posters

621 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:59:15pm

re: #560 windsagio

I’m really starting to think that it had to do with a dick-swinging competition in the Israeli military or government.

Guess what - you have no credibility.

622 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:59:20pm

re: #613 Killgore Trout

Facts is stubborn things.

Fact are useless in emergencies :)

623 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:59:36pm

re: #620 albusteve

OK EVERYBODY SHUT IT DOWN! LORD STEVE HAS SPOKEN!

624 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:59:50pm

After all of the evidence posted here in the past two days on who these people were, who funded and coordinated this flotilla, what was communicated beforehand by the Israelis, and what cargo was on board and why, how can anyone still argue the Israelis are wrong in doing what they did?

/and goddam that was a long sentence.

625 Ebetty  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:59:57pm

I’ve got negative Karma big time, I said stuff people don’t agree with. I realized maybe I should shut up and see how things work here before I post. But that Dr Cordell character has a case of dingbat like I have never seen. His facts are wrong, his analysis is wrong and he can’t handle criticism or just doesn’t answer it. Lots of smart people with wide variation in their opinions here. He should be quiet, click on the links and smarten up.

I’m going back to my popcorn and junior mints.

626 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:59:59pm

re: #612 drcordell

So far a gin and tonic and two brooklyn lagers.

That explains a good bit.

627 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:00:20pm

re: #612 drcordell

So far a gin and tonic and two brooklyn lagers.

this is a good collaborator between Brooklyn and Schneider: beeradvocate.com

And by good I mean astonishing :D

628 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:00:33pm

re: #619 ryannon

No commandos!

Torpedoes!

629 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:00:50pm

re: #626 Dark_Falcon

That explains a good bit.

I have that for breakfast

630 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:01:02pm

re: #593 Joo-LiZ

Yes, I want to know what drcordell thinks, though.

It sounds to me like he is blaming Israel for the incident on the Flotilla, and linking it with his view of Israeli disproportionate response.

I want to clarify if that’s what he is saying.

He’s blaming Israel. Period. For it all. For starting it and stopping it. He doesn’t understand how people live in tyranny, Nazi Germany, Russia, Cuba, China. He wants an answer to stop the oppression in the world? Well good going on that. Meanwhile, Israel spends billions on that very problem, but he won’t see that.

The first thing you have to know is the difference between good and evil. Morality and immorality. Humans are infallible. I’m not talking about making mistakes. I’m talking about fear-based societies versus people who live in freedom. If you can’t recognize tyrants and condemn them, than you can’t possibly ask for peace… and your moral compass just snapped.

631 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:01:17pm

re: #625 Ebetty

I’m going back to my popcorn and junior mints.


Mixing popcorn and junior mints? Your negative karma is well deserved.
/

632 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:01:32pm

re: #625 Ebetty

you’re just trying to suck-up/ gain Karma, aren;’t ya!

/

633 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:01:50pm

re: #616 Joo-LiZ

I’ll agree that it turned out badly. Israel knows that.

I stand by my statement that the IDF was clearly caught off guard, but that commandeering the ship is a legitimate tactic, as evidenced by the success of the other 5 vessels.

It’s easy for us to say “they should have come up with something smarter” with the benefit of hindsight, but what they could do, I don’t know.

There are 2 more boats en route. We’ll see how Israel handles those.

One of them needs to stay away from heavy… no, not even going to finish that. Shouldn’t even have started it. Bad Jay.

634 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:01:53pm

re: #628 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

No commandos!

Torpedoes!

/Mines!

635 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:02:03pm

re: #571 drcordell

Bullshit. You’re telling me Israel wouldn’t have been able to tow the ship into harbor if they fouled the prop? Go on, pull the other one.

The article I quoted has been changed from the original. It was originally two articles that they merged into one, and the size of the ship was the critical factor. Only the one that turned out violently couldn’t have been disabled for risk of humanitarian crises because of the inability to tow it quickly enough.

636 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:02:21pm

re: #629 WindUpBird

I have that for breakfast

You’re fun and funny, WUB. Cordell is trolling. That’s the difference.

637 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:02:26pm

re: #634 brookly red

/Mines!

Yours !?!?

638 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:02:32pm

re: #604 windsagio

Member of the Knesset == Self-hating Jew, right?!

re: #604 windsagio

Member of the Knesset == Self-hating Jew, right?!

Self-hating Jew? No. Jew-hating Arab.

Member of the Knesset calls for the establishment of Islamic Caliphate in Israel.

639 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:02:35pm

Image: 610x.jpg

A boy holds a toy gun as he takes part in a protest in Amman June 1, 2010, against the deadly Israeli raid on May 31 on a flotilla of ships carrying humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip.

Image: 610x.jpg

A boy holds a toy gun with the image of Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan around his neck as they take part in a protest in Amman June 1, 2010, against the deadly Israeli raid on May 31 on a flotilla of ships carrying humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip.

I wonder why the child death toll is lopsided.
/

640 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:03:06pm

re: #636 Dark_Falcon

You’re fun and funny, WUB. Cordell is trolling. That’s the difference.

No, I think Cordell actually believes what he’s not saying. He isn’t mouthing off just to get a response.

641 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:03:07pm

re: #632 sattv4u2

you’re just trying to suck-up/ gain Karma, aren;’t ya!

Appears to have worked.

642 Ebetty  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:03:16pm

re: #632 sattv4u2

nope, just happy I’m not the biggest moron.

643 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:03:26pm

re: #639 Killgore Trout

Image: 610x.jpg

I wonder why the child death toll is lopsided.
/

And it’s a spider-man gun!

644 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:03:34pm

re: #637 sattv4u2

Yours !?!?

those are all in the front yard & they wouldn’t stop a ship… better get some new ones.

645 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:03:43pm

re: #642 Ebetty

nope, just happy I’m not the biggest moron.

we’ll call you AVIS

646 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:03:47pm

re: #636 Dark_Falcon

You’re fun and funny, WUB. Cordell is trolling. That’s the difference.

I’m just trying to keep the mood light, because I know nothing about this stuff :D

(actually, all I have for breakfast are energy drinks, the booze flows later at karaoke)

647 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:03:59pm

re: #620 albusteve

I consider this thread Rogered…
fuck these posters


[Video]

Barry Rubin quotes that song in his Flotilla Fiasco take-down:

Sympathy for the Devil and the Gaza Sea Confrontation: How Can Helping a Repressive Fascist, Genocide-Intending Hamas Regime be Innocent?
By Barry Rubin

“Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what’s puzzling you
Is the nature of my game.”


—The Rolling Stones, “Sympathy for the Devil”

Is it so hard to guess the name? Is it so difficult to understand the nature of the game? Apparently so.

RTWT

648 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:04:03pm

re: #636 Dark_Falcon

He’s not trolling tho’. He’s honestly arguing his position, the only mistake is that he let his temper get out of control.

That’s not remotely trolling.

649 ryannon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:04:07pm

re: #599 darthstar

They played an interview on NPR with the Knesset (sp?) member who was on board the flotilla (don’t know her name). She’s able to speak because she has diplomatic immunity in Israel and as such wasn’t arrested. She only commented on the dead she saw. She said two were shot in the head and others had body shots. The Israelis are saying they only shot at the legs… She also said Israel was being very selective on which video they released (hell, I’d do the same in their shoes).

I don’t expect this to ever be fully resolved, but as more eye-witness accounts come out as flotilla members are released from jail, the story will continue to change as the accusations and denials fly.

If a bunch of people were trying to lynch me or my team, I’d aim for the head.

650 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:04:49pm

re: #648 windsagio

He’s not trolling tho’. He’s honestly arguing his position, the only mistake is that he let his temper get out of control.

That’s not remotely trolling.

YoungLib trolls. Cordell RAGES. Rage is honest!

651 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:04:50pm

re: #640 JasonA

No, I think Cordell actually believes what he’s not saying. He isn’t mouthing off just to get a response.

damn shame too…

652 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:05:07pm

re: #642 Ebetty

nope, just happy I’m not the biggest moron.

You do not have the record negative Karma.
Really.

653 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:05:24pm

re: #648 windsagio

He’s not trolling tho’. He’s honestly arguing his position, the only mistake is that he let his temper get out of control.

That’s not remotely trolling.

that’s one of his mistakes.

the other mistake is his being dead-ass wrong.

besides that, though, i totally agree with you!

654 Liberal Classic  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:05:36pm

re: #647 Joo-LiZ

655 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:05:37pm

re: #649 ryannon

If a bunch of people were trying to lynch me or my team, I’d aim for the head.

center mass, center mass.

656 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:05:42pm

Sing along with Jiminy, joined by Cordell, Darthstar, and Windsagio, as we bring you that fine old pro-peace song, “All We Are Saying”!

657 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:06:12pm

re: #646 WindUpBird

Shooter McGavin: You’re in big trouble though, pal. I eat pieces of shit like you for breakfast!
Happy Gilmore: [laughing] You eat pieces of shit for breakfast?

(I like movies)

658 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:06:28pm

re: #656 Cato the Elder

Sing along with Jiminy, joined by Cordell, Darthstar, and Windsagio, as we bring you that fine old pro-peace song, “All We Are Saying”!

Wow…that was brilliant.

659 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:06:40pm

re: #657 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

ahahahahaha dying

660 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:07:08pm

re: #658 darthstar

Wow…that was brilliant.

Blog comments

srs bznss

661 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:07:18pm

The Palestinians, as a group and as a society, they have failed. Unlike other Arabs in the region, they live in close proximity to a vibrant and free society. They know and see the benefits of what living in a free society means. They also know to acknowledge Israel’s successes, they have to acknowledge their own failures. Culturally, that is too high a price to pay.

The cycle of violence is not simply destined to perpetuate itself- the cycle of violence is reinforced and ever escalating. Dysfunctional behaviors that were unknown or unheard before have become commonplace.

This is not just about violence. Even the wildest conspiracy theories, widely welcomed and accepted, become a reflection of a dysfunctional defense mechanism and absurdity. As Arab religious and political leaders whip crowds into a wild frenzy, warning of ‘Jewish plots’ to control the world, these same religious and political leaders have no trouble promising that ‘Muslims all over the world will work together to control the world’ and that the ‘flag of Islam will fly over the White House’ and the British Parliament. Those who resist will be destroyed.

These kinds of projections are used by religious and political leaders to control and feed the fantasy with the intoxication of absolute power. In their world, the non Muslim must not only submit, but he must be in a subjugated and terrorized. He must be in a constant state of fear of the believers power. The idea is intoxicating- it is directed at some of the most failed and broken cultures and societies in history.

There is a difference between backward societies and failed ones. Backward societies are unaware of the possibilities in front of them. Failed societies have squandered the opportunities that have been afforded them. Failed societies can recover, but only if they reject the ideologies that led them to fail in the first place. The Palestinians are a failed society
.

662 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:07:37pm

re: #657 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Shooter McGavin: You’re in big trouble though, pal. I eat pieces of shit like you for breakfast!
Happy Gilmore: [laughing] You eat pieces of shit for breakfast?

(I like movies)

doin’ the bull dance…feelin’ the flow…

663 Ebetty  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:07:53pm

re: #645 sattv4u2

What’s AVIS?

664 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:08:08pm
665 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:08:12pm

re: #642 Ebetty

nope, just happy I’m not the biggest moron.

Anyone who says something that self-deprecating is cool with me.
Stick around.

666 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:08:48pm

re: #663 Ebetty

What’s AVIS?

A rental car company :D

667 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:09:01pm

re: #653 Aceofwhat?

I think he’s not any more wrong than the extremists on the other side here. (the Invade Gaza/Strafe the boats!) types.

There’s a middle way.

668 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:09:01pm

re: #642 Ebetty

nope, just happy I’m not the biggest moron.

There;s so much competition for that coveted spot that you don’t have a chance.

669 jaunte  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:09:03pm

re: #663 Ebetty

What’s AVIS?

Image: avisbuttoncolor.gif

670 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:09:34pm

Okay…Giants game is about to start, and my cat keeps lying on top of my hands while I try to type, so I think I’ll take a break for a bit.

Play nice, everyone.

671 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:09:47pm

re: #667 windsagio

I think he’s not any more wrong than the extremists on the other side here. (the Invade Gaza/Strafe the boats!) types.

There’s a middle way.

heh…he’s not any more wrong than other people who are wrong?

i can live with that;)

672 Ebetty  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:09:51pm

re: #652 reine.de.tout

Good to know! I’m betting you guys have dressed folks out from time to time. :)

673 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:10:21pm

re: #663 Ebetty

What’s AVIS?

They’re #2 (behind Hertz)

They try harder

avis.com

674 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:10:25pm

re: #670 darthstar

Football? In June?

675 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:10:28pm

re: #667 windsagio

I think he’s not any more wrong than the extremists on the other side here. (the Invade Gaza/Strafe the boats!) types.

There’s a middle way.

then why don’t your pea brained, Stupid Club come up with some solutions?….what middle way?

676 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:10:59pm

re: #671 Aceofwhat?

Hmm, I guess that is what I DID say!

677 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:11:05pm

re: #674 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Football? In June?

that’s not nice…that’s like shouting “pie” in a crowded theater…

678 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:11:09pm

re: #674 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Football? In June?

I think it is some quaint local baseball team…

679 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:11:21pm

re: #676 windsagio

Hmm, I guess that is what I DID say!

just trying to be agreeable!

680 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:11:27pm

re: #672 Ebetty

You do know I’m going back to find out why you were dinged so hard…

But, I’m glad you came back.

I think.
/

681 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:11:32pm

re: #674 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Football? In June?

I could handle it

682 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:12:03pm

LOl

683 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:12:08pm

re: #679 Aceofwhat?

just trying to be agreeable!

“Would you agree that Paris is the capital of France?”

“Yes.”

“Good! Then we’re in agreement!”

684 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:13:21pm

re: #661 researchok

The Palestinians are a failed society.

And just think, they could be a failed state tomorrow if “we” would only give them one.

685 Ebetty  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:13:36pm

re: #665 Spare O’Lake

re: #666 WindUpBird

re: #668 JasonA

re: #669 jaunte

Many thanks.

686 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:14:19pm

re: #680 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Whoa.

687 Ebetty  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:14:21pm

re: #673 sattv4u2

Many thanks to you too.

688 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:14:24pm

re: #682 Killgore Trout

LOl

4chan needs to get on this NOW!

689 Renaissance_Man  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:14:37pm

re: #679 Aceofwhat?

just trying to be agreeable!

23 Grand Slam semis or better in a row. A record that will never be equalled.

690 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:14:37pm

re: #684 Cato the Elder

And just think, they could be a failed state tomorrow if “we” would only give them one.

And who do you suppose they would blame for that?

Plus ca change…

691 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:14:46pm

re: #686 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yeah…

692 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:15:05pm

re: #666 WindUpBird

FINALLY I’m 666!

FINALLY!

OH this is a great day

693 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:15:16pm

re: #684 Cato the Elder

And just think, they could be a failed state tomorrow if “we” would only give them one.

/maybe they could be like roommates with the Kurds or something… hey it could work.

694 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:15:17pm

re: #687 Ebetty

Many thanks to you too.

yer welcome

n/p

695 Ebetty  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:15:38pm

re: #680 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I made the mistake of defending my Governor, Bob McDonnell. However, I will never defend his moron of an AG.

696 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:15:50pm

re: #689 Renaissance_Man

23 Grand Slam semis or better in a row. A record that will never be equalled.

i admit…i was sad to see it happen…i had espn updating in the background.

he’s my greatest of all time, no question…

697 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:15:55pm

re: #692 WindUpBird

FINALLY I’m 666!

FINALLY!

OH this is a great day

please report for carousel…

698 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:16:09pm

re: #695 Ebetty

He’s my Governor too! Roanoke here.

699 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:16:48pm

re: #692 WindUpBird

Ronnie James Dio would be proud.

700 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:17:07pm

re: #672 Ebetty
You are far from the first to start out rough. *clears throat, hangs head*

BTW I am told over my shoulder by my beloved Dragon_Lady… “high five”. Hang in there.

701 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:17:20pm

re: #685 Ebetty

Now remember please, we have a lot of very smart morons here, so keep on your toes.

702 Renaissance_Man  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:17:25pm

re: #696 Aceofwhat?

i admit…i was sad to see it happen…i had espn updating in the background.

he’s my greatest of all time, no question…

No question. I wish I could consider myself more of a fan of his, but I cannot identify with someone so talented they can be the greatest and still pleasant and unassuming, as opposed to being a totally self-absorbed psychopath like every other world-class athlete I’ve ever met.

703 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:18:18pm

re: #686 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Whoa.

Oops…whassup?

704 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:18:21pm

re: #702 Renaissance_Man

No question. I wish I could consider myself more of a fan of his, but I cannot identify with someone so talented they can be the greatest and still pleasant and unassuming, as opposed to being a totally self-absorbed psychopath like every other world-class athlete I’ve ever met.

add to that the fact that it rarely looks like he’s even trying very hard. does the guy even have sweat glands?

i played for 2.5 hours today and i was drenched after 10 minutes…

705 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:18:47pm

re: #698 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

He’s my Governor too! Roanoke here.

Roanoke,,, Gateway to Bent Mountain!

706 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:18:54pm

re: #684 Cato the Elder

And just think, they could be a failed state tomorrow if “we” would only give them one.

what we have here is a group of people that have grown up with moral relativism, victimization and rambling, incessant anti-semitism…they are too stupid to understand the reality of the fix the ME is in….too much television, too many video games and way too many blogs they don’t understand for what they are….media and cyber victims, dumb as a box of rocks and proud of it….this is our future

707 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:19:02pm

re: #699 windsagio

Ronnie James Dio would be proud.

Dream Evil!

708 freetoken  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:19:23pm

Remember those people, AGW deniers, who try to claim that “cold kills more than heat”, and forth, who show up (or used to anyway) when discussions of AGW get started?

Anyway, I was reminded of those vacuous claims when I saw this:

Hundreds die in Indian heatwave

Record temperatures in northern India have claimed hundreds of lives in what is believed to be the hottest summer in the country since records began in the late 1800s.

709 Renaissance_Man  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:20:57pm

re: #704 Aceofwhat?

add to that the fact that it rarely looks like he’s even trying very hard. does the guy even have sweat glands?

i played for 2.5 hours today and i was drenched after 10 minutes…

Every so often an athlete comes along that simply transcends their sport. They aren’t just the best exponent of it - they do things in the sport that redefine what the sport can be. They are so complete that even when they are defeated, they are never truly bested. Federer is one of only four or five that I can think of, and we shall not see his like again.

710 Ebetty  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:21:28pm

re: #698 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The best weekend I have ever spent was in Hotel Roanoke, great place. Beautiful country out there. Only went once but it left an impression.

711 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:21:32pm

re: #705 sattv4u2

How the hell’d you know that?

712 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:21:40pm

I blame not Heather, but rather a society that tells its youth that it’s answers can be found in the MTV video games

713 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:22:14pm

re: #710 Ebetty

She’s a grand ole lady, the Hotel Roanoke.

714 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:22:35pm

re: #709 Renaissance_Man

Every so often an athlete comes along that simply transcends their sport. They aren’t just the best exponent of it - they do things in the sport that redefine what the sport can be. They are so complete that even when they are defeated, they are never truly bested. Federer is one of only four or five that I can think of, and we shall not see his like again.

they said the exact same thing about Arthur Ash….funny that

715 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:23:22pm

re: #714 albusteve

they said the exact same thing about Arthur Ash…funny that

no they didn’t

716 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:23:29pm

re: #711 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

How the hell’d you know that?

hehehe,,,,

717 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:23:33pm

re: #697 brookly red

please report for carousel…

Renew! Renew!

718 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:23:47pm

Rightwingconspirator

If you are still monitoring… here are the pics of the stones you mentioned earlier…

(Top - clockwise) Gastropod Fossils in black agate matrix, Gastropod Fossils in black agate matrix, Morceni Turquoise, Leopard Skin Jasper, Kingman Turquoise (with a swirled hard-mud matrix) and Moss Agate.

Image: six_stones.JPG

(Top - clockwise) Turquoise (with white calcite), Mexican Lace Agate, Matric Opal (Andamooka, Au.), Leopard Skin Jasper and Kingman Turquoise.

Image: five_pendants.JPG

719 Renaissance_Man  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:24:05pm

re: #714 albusteve

they said the exact same thing about Arthur Ash…funny that

They say the same thing about every ‘greatest’ of their era. They’re not always right.

720 windsagio  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:25:23pm

Off to fight some streets, tty’alll!

721 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:25:28pm

re: #715 Aceofwhat?

no they didn’t

Madonna?

722 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:26:31pm

re: #721 albusteve

Madonna?

who?

723 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:27:11pm

re: #721 albusteve

Madonna?

Ashe was transcendent for social reasons - definitely one of the greatest PEOPLE in tennis.

But he only won 3 slams.

724 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:27:20pm

re: #711 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

re: #716 sattv4u2

hehehe,,,

Ever go anywhere near Mount Jackson?

ECHOSTAR’s primary facility is there. I’ve been there a few times to do some work

725 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:27:24pm

re: #719 Renaissance_Man

They say the same thing about every ‘greatest’ of their era. They’re not always right.

time and where your at in it, is truly a strange concept eh?…the only “greatest’ in my lifetime that I’d bet on is Ali…and i still have a ways to go

726 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:28:00pm

In the last thread I dissected what I saw as the PR problems associated with the current interdiction methods. Other posters then proposed and then objected to sinking the ships with explosives, and I get that. However since I am nothing if not awesomely pro-active, I’ve been brainstorming alternative methods to neutralizing a blockade runner. My solution is the electromagnetic tugboat, strangely enough it’s actually a serious proposal. Yes, it’s a little bit silly too, but I’ll wait for Ludwig to tell me why it won’t work, if it won’t work.

Okay, here’s my stupid plan:

First you take a big ass tugboat, then you run a huge series of electromagnets along one side of the tugboat and reinforce the entire set up structurally, tie it in to the engine mounts. You also wire up a shit load of batteries to your engine generator and tie everything into the electromagnet. Up armor the whole thing a bit, it’s a goddamned tugboat, it can take it.

Then with your batteries fully charged you run up along side the ship running your blockade, flip on the electromagnet, drop anchor, stop the screws, and switch all engine output to the generator, battery, electromagnet system.

If the blockade runner wants to rip off their own hull, at least they sink without the use of explosives, with both much less loss of life and far more comedic effect. It’s win - win as far as I can see.

For those who will question the cost of my awesome electromagnetic tugboat idea, I don’t think it could cost much more than that helicopter and boarding crew which were put at risk.

I feel this is the post that will cement my reputation as a complete whack-a-doo, or a certified genius. The EM tugboat is one of those knife edge of sanity concepts, I have to admit.

Just trying to help.

Yes, I’m aware it won’t work on a fiberglass hull.

727 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:28:09pm

re: #723 Aceofwhat?

Ashe was transcendent for social reasons - definitely one of the greatest PEOPLE in tennis.

But he only won 3 slams.

competition was much more severe back then

728 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:29:09pm

Amazing line I just came across:

If Israel looks weak, it encourages attack from its enemies. If it looks strong, it encourages attack from the West.

Profound.

Jeffrey Goldberg at the Atlantic:

There’s real pain in Israel today, pain at the humiliation of the flotilla raid, pain on behalf of the injured soldiers, and pain that the geniuses who run this country could not figure out a way to out-smart a bunch of Turkish Islamists and their useful idiot fellow travelers. And no, there is no particular pain felt for the dead on the boat; the video of those peace-seeking peace activists beating on the paintball commandos with metal bars pretty much canceled out whatever feelings of sympathy Israelis might have otherwise felt. Plus, most Israelis are aware, unlike much of the rest of the world, that these ships were not on a humanitarian mission, but a political mission, one meant to lend support to Hamas, which seeks Israel’s destruction, so you might have to excuse Israelis for not sympathizing overly much.

About that shame and embarrassment: I just met with the son of a friend who serves in an elite Israeli army unit, one very much similiar to Flotilla 13, the Naval commando unit deployed so disastrously against the anti-Israel flotilla, and he explained the shame this way: “These soldiers are the best we have. We are Israel’s deterrent. People in the Middle East need to think we are the best, and we are the best, except that when we’re sent into situations without any intelligence, without any direction, with paintball guns instead of sufficient weapons, with no understanding of who we’re fighting. Then we’re going to have a disaster. These commandos were beaten with pipes! They came onto the deck (of the ship) one by one down a rope and they were beaten by a mob! Commandos! It’s amazing that they didn’t kill everyone on the ship, once they regrouped. Just amazing. The whole story is amazing.”
729 Fiveonefive  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:31:16pm

OT : Japanese PM resigns over inability to move unwanted US base.

730 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:31:26pm

re: #726 goddamnedfrank

or you could just ram them?

731 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:32:10pm

re: #727 albusteve

competition was much more severe back then

no, the competition got more severe after Ashe won his last slam in ‘75.

Borg, Connors, McEnroe…

732 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:32:18pm

re: #711 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

re: #724 sattv4u2

re: #716 sattv4u2

Ever go anywhere near Mount Jackson?

ECHOSTAR’s primary facility is there. I’ve been there a few times to do some work

ECHOSTAR =’s Dish Network, btw

733 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:32:40pm

re: #730 brookly red

or you could just ram them?

whoa dude…you have any deep water boating experience?….ram them?

734 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:32:57pm

re: #718 Walter L. Newton

Nice stones!
I left a message with my LA guy.
We just bought some stones from him-Bloodstone and we just got this chrysacolla/azurite/malachite/hematite all kinds of patterns going on in there. Swirls and splotches of blue-green and near black green.

Did you put out a search or Orchid?

735 Ebetty  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:33:00pm

G’night all. Way past my bedtime.

736 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:33:49pm

re: #726 goddamnedfrank

You know, that actually might work. The Islamist would still scream “PIRACY!!1” but it would get much less traction in the US.

737 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:33:55pm

re: #731 Aceofwhat?

no, the competition got more severe after Ashe won his last slam in ‘75.

Borg, Connors, McEnroe…

exactly why he didn’t win more…thanks for pointing that out
(soon to be whacked here)

738 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:34:55pm

re: #733 albusteve

whoa dude…you have any deep water boating experience?…ram them?

size matters. get an old freighter say 7,000 tons? paint it black with sharks teeth, big speakers, play the Jaws music… like that.

739 Cheeseland  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:35:21pm

re: #24 windsagio

Knives, gas masks, bullet proof vests.

740 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:35:25pm

re: #737 albusteve

exactly why he didn’t win more…thanks for pointing that out
(soon to be whacked here)

no, that’s not why he didn’t win more in 1970-1975.

he was very, very good. not great. Not Borg or Sampras or Federer…he bridged the Rod Laver and Bjorn Borg eras…the early ’70s were ripe for conquest.

741 freetoken  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:35:55pm

re: #729 Fiveonefive

Hatoyama didn’t want to do it before he met his party boss, who had been the previous head and would have been PM if he hadn’t been caught in a scandal.

The DPJ came to power over widespread unhappiness with the dominant since WWII LDP (many of whose leaders are scions of the ruling elite from Imperial Japan.)

Japan is in a bad way, and is a nation struggling with national decline. Sooner or latter something ugly is going to come out of this.

742 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:35:57pm

re: #731 Aceofwhat?

no, the competition got more severe after Ashe won his last slam in ‘75.

Borg, Connors, McEnroe…

Arthur Ashe was my favorite player until Borg came along…then I asked my mom for a Bancroft tennis racquet…and later a Donnay. I miss the days of wooden tennis racquets.

743 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:36:04pm

re: #738 brookly red

size matters. get an old freighter say 7,000 tons? paint it black with sharks teeth, big speakers, play the Jaws music… like that.

don’t they sink when you do that?

744 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:36:08pm

re: #726 goddamnedfrank

Theoretically electromagnets would work, except for the fact that they work best against a straight-line pull and not all that well against shear forces.

To illustrate, stick two magnets together and then try to pull them apart vertically, then stick the same two magnets together and slide them apart sideways horizontally. Magnets have practically no grip against shear force, only direct attraction at 180% to their pole alignment.

745 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:36:21pm

re: #742 darthstar

(fed the animals, so my lap is my own for another ten minutes)

746 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:36:40pm

re: #692 WindUpBird

FINALLY I’m 666!

FINALLY!

OH this is a great day

You will never be 666..Every number except the first couple of Numbers to my SS# are 6’s…Every fricking one…Do you have any idea how embarrassing it is to tell your SS your whole life? Do you have any idea?
So? 666?..yes
and 666?
Yes
You device a plan in your teens when repeating your number..
66..ok…

66.. eyebrow arching..yes
66.. ok?
They always..And trust me on this.. They always look up…My whole life… The look up.. Yes..I’m the freaking devil do you want a fucking autograph?
I have blushed a million times…
If any man has to the right to hate the United States Government on purely religious grounds.. It’s me!
I should freaking sue…The Gov’t made me the Anti-Christ at Birth…
Anybody here know a good lawyer from Haiti?

747 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:37:00pm

re: #738 brookly red

size matters. get an old freighter say 7,000 tons? paint it black with sharks teeth, big speakers, play the Jaws music… like that.

and everyone on board is wearing a cardboard Bibi mask?…it’s not like Ben Hur

748 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:37:26pm

re: #745 darthstar

(fed the animals, so my lap is my own for another ten minutes)

I wish mine stayed on my lap! The devon rexes like to fuck with my DVI cable :(

749 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:37:37pm

re: #743 Aceofwhat?

don’t they sink when you do that?

maybe, maybe not but it does get their attention

750 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:37:45pm

I want people to see this kid march around in LA alone, proudly, and fearlessly facing off a mob of Palestinian protesters. Anybody have any thoughts?

751 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:38:46pm

re: #742 darthstar

Arthur Ashe was my favorite player until Borg came along…then I asked my mom for a Bancroft tennis racquet…and later a Donnay. I miss the days of wooden tennis racquets.

no way! the shot varieties made possible by modern racquets keep the sizzle alive-

(and i’d suck with a wooden racquet, selfishly)

752 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:38:50pm

Alright, I’m hitting the sheets!

Good night, Lizard-nation!

753 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:39:01pm

re: #749 brookly red

maybe, maybe not but it does get their attention

better yet, just pace a ring of icebergs around Gaza and let the peaceniks sink themselves

754 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:39:11pm

re: #734 Rightwingconspirator

Nice stones!
I left a message with my LA guy.
We just bought some stones from him-Bloodstone and we just got this chrysacolla/azurite/malachite/hematite all kinds of patterns going on in there. Swirls and splotches of blue-green and near black green.

Did you put out a search or Orchid?

Not yet… I want to wait until this Thursdays payday and then see what I could put aside for some Morceni… I don’t want to jump the gun and then get all excited only to turn around and not have the cash.

I have about 1/2 pound of bloodstone, I can get it really cheap here, already slabbed.

I’ve told you that I don’t do any sort of metal smithing, so, those pendant mounts and chains are basic stuff, sterling and metal, super glue for the mount.

I do all the stones by hand, no templates, no dop sticks, freeform them… sometimes a manage to grind through the tip of a finger if I have a really small or thin piece.

755 Renaissance_Man  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:39:48pm

re: #751 Aceofwhat?

no way! the shot varieties made possible by modern racquets keep the sizzle alive-

(and i’d suck with a wooden racquet, selfishly)

I’d like to see an exhibition set between Federer/Nadal/any of the current players with wooden racquets.

756 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:39:57pm

re: #744 ausador

Theoretically electromagnets would work, except for the fact that they work best against a straight-line pull and not all that well against shear forces.

To illustrate, stick two magnets together and then try to pull them apart vertically, then stick the same two magnets together and slide them apart sideways horizontally. Magnets have practically no grip against shear force, only direct attraction at 180% to their pole alignment.

Good point, so you mount them on the bow and rip off a big chunk of their stern. I like that even better, it’s all about controlling the narrative.

757 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:40:35pm

re: #744 ausador

velcro, though…

758 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:40:38pm

re: #753 albusteve

better yet, just pace a ring of icebergs around Gaza and let the peaceniks sink themselves

well physical barriers can work too… lots of I beams and cement.

759 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:40:43pm

re: #661 researchok

The Palestinians are a failed society.

and yet, as a diaspora, they have been the middle class in most Arab countries and quite successful there (albeit second class).

760 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:42:19pm

re: #755 Renaissance_Man

I’d like to see an exhibition set between Federer/Nadal/any of the current players with wooden racquets.

no fun.

761 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:43:39pm

good night, good people-

762 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:44:19pm

re: #750 Joo-LiZ

I want people to see this kid march around in LA alone, proudly, and fearlessly facing off a mob of Palestinian protesters. Anybody have any thoughts?

Ballsy kid. But it is LA and people protesting here in the states are far less likely to resort to violence, as far as I know. It’s good that the LAPD was quick to surround him with five or six officers, as that ensured nobody would take his flag from him and make the scene uglier than it was.

763 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:44:33pm

re: #761 Aceofwhat?

good night, good people-

that’s my line!

764 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:45:04pm

re: #763 brookly red

that’s my line!

What’s Your Line?

765 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:45:22pm

re: #751 Aceofwhat?

no way! the shot varieties made possible by modern racquets keep the sizzle alive-

(and i’d suck with a wooden racquet, selfishly)

I loved playing with a wooden racquet…string it up to 75lbs and rip top-spin forehands into the back court.

766 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:46:03pm

re: #764 Walter L. Newton

What’s Your Line?

whats a nice girl like you ,,,,,,,,

767 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:46:27pm

re: #750 Joo-LiZ

I want people to see this kid march around in LA alone, proudly, and fearlessly facing off a mob of Palestinian protesters. Anybody have any thoughts?


[Video]

Brave young man.
Very interesting, facing that crowd calling him personally all sorts of names, making all sorts of accusations that HE is a killer … he never resorted to personally calling any of the other protesters any names, just spoke of Hamas the terror organizations.

768 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:46:27pm

re: #764 Walter L. Newton

re: #766 sattv4u2

whats a nice girl like you ,,,

hey ,, I’m old ,, so sue me!

769 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:46:39pm

re: #759 Naso Tang

and yet, as a diaspora, they have been the middle class in most Arab countries and quite successful there (albeit second class).

when the Palis throw off the shackles of Hamas and Fatah, I will gladly support them with all my heart….the whole thing could turn on a thin dime, but Hamas knows that too

770 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:47:14pm

re: #761 Aceofwhat?

good night, good people-

FOUL!
oh wait…

771 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:47:17pm

re: #750 Joo-LiZ

I want people to see this kid march around in LA alone, proudly, and fearlessly facing off a mob of Palestinian protesters. Anybody have any thoughts?

[Video]

I was just going to post that. Upding!

772 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:47:29pm

re: #766 sattv4u2

whats a nice girl like you ,,,

So I turned to the door man and told him to call me a cab..
He turns back and says..
OK your a Cab..

773 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:47:50pm

re: #750 Joo-LiZ

I want people to see this kid march around in LA alone, proudly, and fearlessly facing off a mob of Palestinian protesters. Anybody have any thoughts?


[Video]

Tough kid, good on him.

As for the rest of them, might I suggest Dr Cordell make their acquaintance. I suspect he’d find them most delightful.

774 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:48:19pm

re: #764 Walter L. Newton

What’s Your Line?

sniff sniff
what was the question?

775 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:48:20pm

re: #767 reine.de.tout

Brave young man.
Very interesting, facing that crowd calling him personally all sorts of names, making all sorts of accusations that HE is a killer … he never resorted to personally calling any of the other protesters any names, just spoke of Hamas the terror organizations.

Watch to the very end, when they interview the Palestinian woman protestor and hear what she has to say about the conflict.

Then you will understand why the Israelis can’t make peace all by themselves.

776 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:49:20pm

re: #726 goddamnedfrank

In the last thread I dissected what I saw as the PR problems associated with the current interdiction methods. Other posters then proposed and then objected to sinking the ships with explosives, and I get that. However since I am nothing if not awesomely pro-active, I’ve been brainstorming alternative methods to neutralizing a blockade runner. My solution is the electromagnetic tugboat, strangely enough it’s actually a serious proposal. Yes, it’s a little bit silly too, but I’ll wait for Ludwig to tell me why it won’t work, if it won’t work.

Could work, except that the magnetic field would set up so many induction currents in everything conductive on the tugs that things would get very interesting everywhere; but it could be good for any crew needing electroshock treatment.

Seriously though, the Israelis can fly little radio controlled drones and hit one missile launcher from miles away, by eye control. How hard would it be to make a torpedo trailing a surface skimming antenna and with a camera in the nose to ram a prop or rudder with a small shaped charge that will only damage a prop blade so as to shake the shaft apart if it keeps running?

777 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:49:42pm

re: #772 HoosierHoops

Hey Hoops, here are those stones I’ve been working on, the ones I mentioned in the other thread… (I know, shameless self-promotion)

(Top - clockwise) Gastropod Fossils in black agate matrix, Gastropod Fossils in black agate matrix, Morceni Turquoise, Leopard Skin Jasper, Kingman Turquoise (with a swirled hard-mud matrix) and Moss Agate.

Image: six_stones.JPG

(Top - clockwise) Turquoise (with white calcite), Mexican Lace Agate, Matric Opal (Andamooka, Au.), Leopard Skin Jasper and Kingman Turquoise.

Image: five_pendants.JPG

778 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:49:53pm

re: #775 Alouette

Watch to the very end, when they interview the Palestinian woman protestor and hear what she has to say about the conflict.

Then you will understand why the Israelis can’t make peace all by themselves.

I heard it. I fact, I was so stunned by her tone of voice, I had to go back and listen to it a second time. You could almost hear her spitting at the thought of an Israeli state.

I’m glad that young man was not harmed; and his parents should be very very proud of him.

779 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:50:47pm

re: #759 Naso Tang

and yet, as a diaspora, they have been the middle class in most Arab countries and quite successful there (albeit second class).

Only because the regimes used them and held them up as martyrs.

Recall when Saddam fell, Iraqis were only too happy to be rid of the Palestinians.

And the Palestinians knew how unloved they really were.

780 brookly red  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:51:27pm

re: #776 Naso Tang

Could work, except that the magnetic field would set up so many induction currents in everything conductive on the tugs that things would get very interesting everywhere; but it could be good for any crew needing electroshock treatment.

Seriously though, the Israelis can fly little radio controlled drones and hit one missile launcher from miles away, by eye control. How hard would it be to make a torpedo trailing a surface skimming antenna and with a camera in the nose to ram a prop or rudder with a small shaped charge that will only damage a prop blade so as to shake the shaft apart if it keeps running?

just taking the warhead off an acoustic torpedo would do that…

781 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:51:41pm

Dorothy Kilgallen hosts the entry at the Dew Drop In, in Comstock MI….if y’all are imterested

782 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:52:03pm

re: #777 Walter L. Newton

Hey Hoops, here are those stones I’ve been working on, the ones I mentioned in the other thread… (I know, shameless self-promotion)

(Top - clockwise) Gastropod Fossils in black agate matrix, Gastropod Fossils in black agate matrix, Morceni Turquoise, Leopard Skin Jasper, Kingman Turquoise (with a swirled hard-mud matrix) and Moss Agate.

Image: six_stones.JPG

(Top - clockwise) Turquoise (with white calcite), Mexican Lace Agate, Matric Opal (Andamooka, Au.), Leopard Skin Jasper and Kingman Turquoise.

Image: five_pendants.JPG

Just gorgeous!
Really beautiful, Walter.

783 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:52:14pm

re: #778 reine.de.tout

I heard it. I fact, I was so stunned by her tone of voice, I had to go back and listen to it a second time. You could almost hear her spitting at the thought of an Israeli state.

I’m glad that young man was not harmed; and his parents should be very very proud of him.

I could so see my son doing that, except that he wouldn’t have this young man’s self control. He would run through the mob beating people up.

784 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:52:44pm

re: #777 Walter L. Newton

You should make some bolos…the disco cowboys love them.

785 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:53:07pm

re: #778 reine.de.tout

I heard it. I fact, I was so stunned by her tone of voice, I had to go back and listen to it a second time. You could almost hear her spitting at the thought of an Israeli state.

I’m glad that young man was not harmed; and his parents should be very very proud of him.

it’s a long chain of fraud….long and deep and not likely to end well

786 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:53:35pm

re: #777 Walter L. Newton

Hey Hoops, here are those stones I’ve been working on, the ones I mentioned in the other thread… (I know, shameless self-promotion)

(Top - clockwise) Gastropod Fossils in black agate matrix, Gastropod Fossils in black agate matrix, Morceni Turquoise, Leopard Skin Jasper, Kingman Turquoise (with a swirled hard-mud matrix) and Moss Agate.

Image: six_stones.JPG

(Top - clockwise) Turquoise (with white calcite), Mexican Lace Agate, Matric Opal (Andamooka, Au.), Leopard Skin Jasper and Kingman Turquoise.

Image: five_pendants.JPG

Very cool! I love stones..I have a couple of Thunder eggs.. Just beautiful stones

787 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:53:40pm

re: #782 reine.de.tout

Just gorgeous!
Really beautiful, Walter.

Oh… thank you. You know that Rightwingconspiritor is a jewelry artist too… He does big time stuff, stones, gold, silver, faceting… I just piddle with pendants, chokers and pocket pieces.

788 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:53:52pm

re: #745 darthstar

(fed the animals, so my lap is my own for another ten minutes)

Darth, I like you and think you’re a pretty groovy dude, and I’d like to give you some good links to look through instead of that other mess you’ve been reading.

palestinefacts.org
jewishvirtuallibrary.org
arabsforisrael.com
mideasttruth.com
mfa.gov.il

I was trying to find more resource places, but a lot of my links are dead! I’m still looking. LGF has a lot of resources also.

789 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:53:58pm

re: #777 Walter L. Newton

The pieces with the fossils in them are wonderful!

790 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:54:21pm

re: #784 darthstar

You should make some bolos…the disco cowboys love them.

I do make bolos… you need one Bucky… LOL.

791 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:54:51pm

re: #787 Walter L. Newton

Oh… thank you. You know that Rightwingconspiritor is a jewelry artist too… He does big time stuff, stones, gold, silver, faceting… I just piddle with pendants, chokers and pocket pieces.

I don’t even do that….I admire both of you

792 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:55:26pm

I build skyscapers….ho hum

793 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:55:42pm

re: #787 Walter L. Newton

Oh… thank you. You know that Rightwingconspiritor is a jewelry artist too… He does big time stuff, stones, gold, silver, faceting… I just piddle with pendants, chokers and pocket pieces.

We have all sorts of amazing talents here!
Well, ‘cept I have no talent whatsoever, LOL.
But I can appreciate talent when I see it!

794 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:56:01pm

re: #788 marjoriemoon

Perusing…thanks.

795 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:56:13pm

re: #789 reine.de.tout

The pieces with the fossils in them are wonderful!

Those gastropod fossil pieces are about 85 percent gastropods and 15 percent black agate matrix… those little critters are piled deep and dense on top of each other… I can send you an unpolished piece if you want a small sample?

796 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:56:23pm

re: #788 marjoriemoon

Darth, I like you and think you’re a pretty groovy dude, and I’d like to give you some good links to look through instead of that other mess you’ve been reading.

[Link: www.palestinefacts.org…]
[Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org…]
[Link: www.arabsforisrael.com…]
[Link: www.mideasttruth.com…]
[Link: www.mfa.gov.il…]

I was trying to find more resource places, but a lot of my links are dead! I’m still looking. LGF has a lot of resources also.

History of Palestine

797 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:56:52pm

re: #793 reine.de.tout

We have all sorts of amazing talents here!
Well, ‘cept I have no talent whatsoever, LOL.
But I can appreciate talent when I see it!

No talent… what about organizing those cookbooks?

798 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:57:01pm

re: #754 Walter L. Newton

Well that’s some nice work. Hopefully we’ll find some good rough. D_L has some rough she wants to cab herself. We have a friend here who will be teaching her. Nice skill to have. There is a certain meditative aspect to the work.

799 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:57:20pm

re: #790 Walter L. Newton

I do make bolos… you need one Bucky… LOL.

Good…that makes me feel better to know you don’t make them…I always thought they were kind of fem.

800 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:57:34pm

re: #791 albusteve

I don’t even do that…I admire both of you

I know you play with pocket pieces… :)

801 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:58:19pm

re: #799 darthstar

Good…that makes me feel better to know you don’t make them…I always thought they were kind of fem.

I said I DO MAKE BOLOS… they sell well around the west.

802 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:59:09pm

re: #795 Walter L. Newton

Those gastropod fossil pieces are about 85 percent gastropods and 15 percent black agate matrix… those little critters are piled deep and dense on top of each other… I can send you an unpolished piece if you want a small sample?

what are those ancient creatures….flat, but spiraling outward?…some sort of pod

803 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:59:30pm

re: #801 Walter L. Newton

I said I DO MAKE BOLOS… they sell well around the west.

oops…misread…I know they sell well. I still won’t wear one…except maybe with a tuxedo and my python boots at a formal event.

804 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:59:33pm

re: #795 Walter L. Newton

Those gastropod fossil pieces are about 85 percent gastropods and 15 percent black agate matrix… those little critters are piled deep and dense on top of each other… I can send you an unpolished piece if you want a small sample?

Would love it!

805 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:59:45pm

re: #56 drcordell

Cato, it’s obvious on the face that this was intended to be a PR stunt. Yes, the ships were loaded with aid. But it’s so abundantly clear that this was about shining the international media spotlight on the Gaza blockade. And Israel played right into the hands of the activists with their response by killing 10 of them. It’s an epic fail on so many different levels.

It’s a hasbarah disaster, yes. I understand how it happened, though. This was an unprecedented development in the ‘run the blockade’ Gaza movement.

What happened on the other boats? That’s what they expected.

806 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:00:09pm

re: #798 Rightwingconspirator

Well that’s some nice work. Hopefully we’ll find some good rough. D_L has some rough she wants to cab herself. We have a friend here who will be teaching her. Nice skill to have. There is a certain meditative aspect to the work.

You hit the nail on the head… I take a piece of rough, study it, sometimes just pocket it for a few days, week, and get a good idea of how I can “expose” the most character in the stone, then the various level of grinding to polishing… very peaceful, and satisfying… I try to do 3-5 pieces a week when I can…

807 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:00:49pm

Islamists and Christians unite Against blasphemy…..
Religious supergroup forms to smite Comedy Central’s Jesus Christ project

It’s not on the air yet. It’s not shot yet. There’s no pilot yet. Hell, there might not even be a script yet.

But Comedy Central developing an animated project about Jesus Christ has the biggest names in the TV watchdog business forming a Super Best Friends protest super-group to preemptively smite the show.

Brent Bozell (president, Media Research Center), Tony Perkins (president, Family Research Council), Michael Medved (talk radio host), Bill Donohue (president, Catholic League), Rabbi Daniel Lapin (American Alliance of Jews and Christians) and, of course, Tim Winter (president, Parents Television Council) are joining forces to form the Coalition Against Religious Bigotry.


I’m anxiously awaiting “Draw Jesus Day”

808 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:00:57pm

re: #805 SanFranciscoZionist

You’re going to be at this for a while if you start at the top, SFZ. Come down and join the gang in real time.

809 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:01:00pm

re: #802 albusteve

what are those ancient creatures…flat, but spiraling outward?…some sort of pod

Gastropods… snails… it’s the fossilized shells… yes, a pod.

810 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:01:54pm

re: #804 reine.de.tout

Would love it!

I get a piece out to you this week. It will be unpolished, but a nice specimen… maybe some other little surprises too!

811 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:02:18pm

re: #779 researchok

Only because the regimes used them and held them up as martyrs.

Recall when Saddam fell, Iraqis were only too happy to be rid of the Palestinians.

And the Palestinians knew how unloved they really were.

My home was in Kuwait during the invasion. After Desert Storm there were no Palestinians left in Kuwait, and no Iraqis. I recall one comment from someone who had been pleading for a company manager to be given permission to come back because he wanted nothing to do with Saddam or Arafat.

The man pleading for him was told to act as if that person had died and move on.

I had a Palestinian employee who risked his life during the occupation to secure some of our belongings, and tell the CIA in Saudi where the roadblocks and the like were, since he was able to go in and out via Jordan.

Of course all these Palestinians would have been killed by their own had they gone “home”.

812 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:02:19pm

re: #68 drcordell

It’s not Hamas. It’s people who actually give a fuck about the Palestinian population that isn’t terrorists. You can keep lumping everyone together into one boat, but there are plenty of innocent people living in Gaza.

This, I think, is where our core disagreement comes in.

I don’t give a lot of credence to the pure and innocent intentions of the people ‘coming to Gaza’s aid’. Some of them, sure. But the big orgs are not made up of bleeding hearts, they’re made up of people with a specific political agenda, which is anti-Israel.

813 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:02:21pm

re: #810 Walter L. Newton

I get a piece out to you this week. It will be unpolished, but a nice specimen… maybe some other little surprises too!

{Walter}
You are a sweetie!

814 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:03:15pm

re: #807 Killgore Trout

I think we had one once a month in my elementary school…

815 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:03:42pm

re: #793 reine.de.tout

We have all sorts of amazing talents here!
Well, ‘cept I have no talent whatsoever, LOL.
But I can appreciate talent when I see it!

Remember a couple of years ago we had a fun thread in the morning about what the Lizards community would be like on a deserted island?
Who would be the cook..The cop..The professor? It went on for hours and was funny as heck…I know one thing..On our LGF version of LOST…We have everything from great music..Health food..Moonshine Whiskey..And everything in between..

816 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:04:37pm

re: #793 reine.de.tout

We have all sorts of amazing talents here!
Well, ‘cept I have no talent whatsoever, LOL.
But I can appreciate talent when I see it!

You got talent, oh yes. Even better you got heart. You and Walter too.

817 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:04:42pm

re: #795 Walter L. Newton

Those gastropod fossil pieces are about 85 percent gastropods and 15 percent black agate matrix… those little critters are piled deep and dense on top of each other… I can send you an unpolished piece if you want a small sample?

Very nice. Amazing what nature can do in only 6000 years…..

818 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:05:00pm

re: #815 HoosierHoops

Remember a couple of years ago we had a fun thread in the morning about what the Lizards community would be like on a deserted island?
Who would be the cook..The cop..The professor? It went on for hours and was funny as heck…I know one thing..On our LGF version of LOST…We have everything from great music..Health food..Moonshine Whiskey..And everything in between..

Heh.
I don’t remember that thread! Wish I did, it sounds like it was fun.

819 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:05:08pm

re: #816 Rightwingconspirator

You got talent, oh yes. Even better you got heart. You and Walter too.

All I got was this crappy sense of humor.

820 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:05:13pm

re: #101 lawhawk

What the Palestinian guy on the street wants or needs is entirely besides the point.

Ain’t THAT the truth, and the pity of the whole damn mess.

821 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:05:28pm

re: #817 Naso Tang

Very nice. Amazing what nature can do in only 6000 years…

Gotcha… yea… right… a the sun revolves around the earth last I heard… :)

822 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:05:45pm

re: #815 HoosierHoops

It all started with a three hour tour.

823 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:05:50pm

re: #816 Rightwingconspirator

You got talent, oh yes. Even better you got heart. You and Walter too.

{RWC}
and one for {Dragon_Lady} too!

824 Bagua  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:06:14pm

DSAW is cutting away and appears to have pierced the was of the riser, that being a jet of oil and gas hitting the yellow body of the CUT DSAW.

It has paused sawing to evaluate this development, and now started sawing again.

Notice the jet of oil/gas bottom right of photo:

Image: DSAW3.JPG

825 Red Pencil  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:06:21pm

re: #595 albusteve

honestly..I do not recall this level of stupidity on any thread, ever, here at LGF…astounding head up assness…just astounding…no wonder Israel has so few friends in the world with all these clean cut dopes running around posting this sort of disconnect

You should check out Daily Kos on this subject, for sheer head up assness it can’t be beat. A diarist on Daily Kos posted the videos we saw here the other day in a diary which sensibly says, yes, of course, the Israelis have a right to defend themselves.

The scary part is the poll:


What should commandos do when they are attacked?
A. Fire on the attackers
B. Get Killed
C. Commit Suicide
D. Flee


So far a narrow plurality of 41% (98 votes, up from 37% the other day!) says they should fire on the attackers;
33% (79 votes, down from 37%!) suggests they flee; 8% (20 votes, a constant rate!) says they should “get killed”; and 16% or 40 votes suggests they “commit suicide”.

Yeah, Israel must be feeling the love over there.
And a comment towards the top with 85 “recommends” (that’s Kos-speak for updings)


[new] u kno a real easy way to not get hit with sticks? (85+ / 0-)
DON’T FUCKING RAPPEL ONTO SOMEBODY ELSE’S BOAT

Only the IDF could spin a commando raid onto a peaceful flotilla as their having been “attacked”.

You’re so ridiculous, why is it you only appear when Israel needs a PR boost?


Eighty. Five. People. Updinged. This. Crap.

And 13 people updinged this, which was posted in response to the video of the demonstrators throwing the soldier overboard:

He’s lucky they didn’t cut his throat (13+ / 0-)
He’s a pirate.

826 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:06:24pm

re: #109 drcordell

A large majority of the Palestinians who actually voted in the election. Just a bit of a difference. I refuse to simply lump every man woman and child into a single lot and say they deserve to be shelled with white phosphorus simply because they happen to have been born into a war zone.

If you can figure out a way to make sure that only the guilty suffer in war, let us know.

827 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:06:54pm

re: #750 Joo-LiZ

I want people to see this kid march around in LA alone, proudly, and fearlessly facing off a mob of Palestinian protesters. Anybody have any thoughts?


[Video]

Yes,, I hope the two young “protesters” speaking at the end of the video aren’t don’t procreate

828 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:07:28pm

re: #824 Bagua

DSAW is cutting away and appears to have pierced the was of the riser, that being a jet of oil and gas hitting the yellow body of the CUT DSAW.

It has paused sawing to evaluate this development, and now started sawing again.

Notice the jet of oil/gas bottom right of photo:

Image: DSAW3.JPG

I was just looking at the feed, and about to come over here to ask where you were - assuming, of course, that you would be following these events that seem to be so intriguing to you!

829 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:07:36pm

re: #827 sattv4u2

Yes,, I hope the two young “protesters” speaking at the end of the video aren’t don’t procreate

pimf

830 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:07:46pm

re: #817 Naso Tang

Very nice. Amazing what nature can do in only 6000 years…

I collect meteorites too… have a lot of them, they are all 6000 years old… (er… I mean 4.3 billion years old)… it’s the oldest material a human can hold in their hands… literally stardust… from the material that spun around the proto-sun… you know… those illustrations you see with the gas and debris floating around a new sun… a meteorite is holding that space junk in your hand.

831 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:08:07pm

re: #820 SanFranciscoZionist

Ain’t THAT the truth, and the pity of the whole damn mess.

Hi, SFZ. How are you?

832 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:08:26pm

re: #825 Red Pencil

Yeah, I rec’d that diary and made a comment. The diarist’s poll was more a reflection on the vibe that was going around the community than his own feelings. He was solidly in favor of Israel’s actions.

833 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:08:47pm

re: #830 Walter L. Newton

I collect meteorites too… have a lot of them, they are all 6000 years old… (er… I mean 4.3 billion years old)… it’s the oldest material a human can hold in their hands… literally stardust… from the material that spun around the proto-sun… you know… those illustrations you see with the gas and debris floating around a new sun… a meteorite is holding that space junk in your hand.

And I am in proud possession of a couple of those meteorites, really amazing to think about what they are, how old they are …

834 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:09:02pm

re: #831 Dark_Falcon

Hi, SFZ. How are you?

She’s actually still wayyyy upthread.

835 Bagua  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:09:21pm

re: #823 reine.de.tout

{RWC}
and one for {Dragon_Lady} too!

I need a hug too.

836 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:10:08pm

re: #835 Bagua

I need a hug too.

{Bagua}
there ya go, hon.

837 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:10:31pm

re: #833 reine.de.tout

And I am in proud possession of a couple of those meteorites, really amazing to think about what they are, how old they are …

I am too..Thanks to Walter…Just amazing..

838 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:10:42pm

re: #830 Walter L. Newton

I collect meteorites too… have a lot of them, they are all 6000 years old… (er… I mean 4.3 billion years old)… it’s the oldest material a human can hold in their hands... literally stardust… from the material that spun around the proto-sun… you know… those illustrations you see with the gas and debris floating around a new sun… a meteorite is holding that space junk in your hand.

I have a Christmas fruitcake thats been passed down from my mothers grandparents!

839 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:11:05pm

re: #838 sattv4u2

I have a Christmas fruitcake thats been passed down from my mothers grandparents!

It figures.

840 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:11:26pm

andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com

Here’s Sullivan’s “Face of the Day,” which I’m pretty sure is in the middle of saying “Death to Israel.” Really curious about what those signs say in the background.

841 Bagua  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:11:26pm

re: #836 reine.de.tout

{Bagua}
there ya go, hon.

Thanks, tough week. Eh?

{reine.de.toute}

842 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:12:39pm

re: #825 Red Pencil

The Kossack hoards have truly shown their asses over this incident. The Kos has shown it still is a nasty place.

843 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:13:16pm

re: #840 JasonA

[Link: andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com…]

Here’s Sullivan’s “Face of the Day,” which I’m pretty sure is in the middle of saying “Death to Israel.” Really curious about what those signs say in the background.

Rage Boy has a sister!

844 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:13:33pm

re: #198 darthstar

But you are using them as an excuse to keep escalating the violence. The kids are simply pawns in this fight. Kill one of mine, I’ll kill ten of yours…

Wrong.

A child is just a dead, and the parents just as heartbroken, regardless of the circumstances, but Israel has gone to lengths to protect civilians, and not only Hamas but Fatah’s groups have gone to lengths to target them.

This is not just a matter of using children’s deaths as pawns in a conflict.

845 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:13:43pm

re: #842 Dark_Falcon

The Kossack hoards have truly shown their asses over this incident. The Kos has shown it still is a nasty place.

It’s shown it can be a nasty place.

Don’t make me pull up some old threads from here.

846 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:13:43pm

re: #841 Bagua

Thanks, tough week. Eh?

{reine.de.toute}

Yes, indeed!
I haven’t had much patience this week, I’m afeerd.
I hate seeing all that oil continuing to spew out.

I think they very well may be successful with this, but here’s the problem - hurricane season started today. IF we happen to have a storm blow up, I don’t know that they can leave that ship out there safely, they’ll have to bring it in - leaving oil flowing again. I’ll be keeping my fingers crossed that nothing happens.

847 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:13:55pm

re: #830 Walter L. Newton

I collect meteorites too… have a lot of them, they are all 6000 years old… (er… I mean 4.3 billion years old)… it’s the oldest material a human can hold in their hands… literally stardust… from the material that spun around the proto-sun… you know… those illustrations you see with the gas and debris floating around a new sun… a meteorite is holding that space junk in your hand.

No doubt you watch that TV show where they never find anything of significance. But, have you ever found one yourself?

848 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:13:55pm

re: #843 Alouette

Rage boy?

849 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:13:57pm

Ok… hold on one fucking minute… this thread has spiraled into crystal and unicorns and ricks and stone and things… and green alligators and long neck geese… and hugs and kisses… I’m gonna puke.

Ok… got that out of my system.

850 Mich-again  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:14:15pm
“This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the whole premise of the voyage was for propaganda and provocation and not for humanitarian purposes.

That describes all of the aid for Palestinians from their “friendly” Arab neighbors. They don’t want to actually help the Palestinians, they really just like using them for props in their stage show to demonize Israel.

851 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:15:05pm

re: #849 Walter L. Newton

Ok… hold on one fucking minute… this thread has spiraled into crystal and unicorns and ricks and stone and things… and green alligators and long neck geese… and hugs and kisses… I’m gonna puke.

Ok… got that out of my system.

Just be sure to do it somewhere where the clean-up crew can find it.

I heard one of my cats barfing the other day, and I still haven’t found where.
Maybe the dog found it first …

852 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:15:25pm

re: #849 Walter L. Newton

Ok… hold on one fucking minute… this thread has spiraled into crystal and unicorns and ricks and stone and things… and green alligators and long neck geese… and hugs and kisses… I’m gonna puke.

Ok… got that out of my system.

CLEAN UP ON AISLE 849!!

853 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:15:48pm

re: #851 reine.de.tout

Just be sure to do it somewhere where the clean-up crew can find it.

I heard one of my cats barfing the other day, and I still haven’t found where.
Maybe the dog found it first …

eeewwww

854 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:15:52pm

re: #847 Naso Tang

No doubt you watch that TV show where they never find anything of significance. But, have you ever found one yourself?

Nope… there are professional meteorite hunters, and dealers, I can’t afford to go on a hunt, so, I buy mine from dealers… I also have a contact in Morocco who works with the desert nomads who collect them all over the Sahara.

855 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:16:03pm

re: #205 Joo-LiZ

You are falling for the arithmetic game. It’s not about absolute numbers. It really is about circumstances and intent.

Talking absolute numbers, the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict is one of the least violent in the world (in terms of deaths). There was a comparative study done by Ben Dror Yemini, I dunno if it’s been published, but I saw him give a talk on it live once. It really is peanuts, for all the attention it gets.

That’s a really key issue. I’m passionately involved of course—you might have noticed my nick—but in terms of what this represents on the worldwide stage o’ people killing one another, the conflict has maintained a highly controlled level of violence for decades.

And people who should know better said with straight faces that the suffering of the Palestinians was like nothing else in the world. They said this while literal millions were dying in African wars.

856 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:16:05pm

re: #850 Mich-again

That describes all of the aid for Palestinians from their “friendly” Arab neighbors. They don’t want to actually help the Palestinians, they really just like using them for props in their stage show to demonize Israel.

There aren’t any trolls around that need educating. Howdy Mich.

857 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:16:09pm

re: #848 JasonA

Rage boy?

Internet meme like “911 Tourist Guy”

858 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:16:38pm

re: #853 sattv4u2

eeewww

that’s what I’m still saying.

859 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:16:48pm

re: #851 reine.de.tout

Just be sure to do it somewhere where the clean-up crew can find it.

I heard one of my cats barfing the other day, and I still haven’t found where.
Maybe the dog found it first …

At least your dog doesn’t do the other stuff; or does it?

860 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:17:15pm

re: #207 marjoriemoon

I’m still curious how one can define Gaza as “occupied”.

You can’t. ‘Highly inconvenienced by its neighbors’ perhaps.

861 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:17:20pm

re: #859 Naso Tang

At least your dog doesn’t do the other stuff; or does it?

*sigh*
yes he does.

862 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:17:24pm

re: #857 Alouette

Ohhh that guy.

863 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:18:00pm

re: #851 reine.de.tout

Went out onto the front porch this afternoon. I had hung a birdhouse out there last week. So I hear these birds chirping away, going NUTS.
I look above where the house is hanging from and whats sitting up on the rail above it, a snake about 2 feet long, just about a foot away from the birdhouse entrance. I got a stick and removed it much to the relief of the birds

864 Bagua  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:18:02pm

re: #855 SanFranciscoZionist

Heh, only made it to #205 and the threads almost over. We’ll have to do without teacher again.

865 Drogheda  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:18:29pm

re: #830 Walter L. Newton

I collect meteorites too… have a lot of them, they are all 6000 years old… (er… I mean 4.3 billion years old)… it’s the oldest material a human can hold in their hands… literally stardust… from the material that spun around the proto-sun… you know… those illustrations you see with the gas and debris floating around a new sun… a meteorite is holding that space junk in your hand.

Technically your hand is made of stardust too. As is the rest of you, whether made from frogs and snails and puppy dog tails or sugar and spice and everything nice.

866 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:18:47pm

re: #228 drcordell

Explain how it’s not? They can’t import or export any goods. They don’t control any of their own border crossings. Their only port is blockaded by the Israeli navy.

That’s not the definition of ‘occupied’. That’s the definition of ‘blockaded’.

867 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:19:26pm

re: #864 Bagua

Heh, only made it to #205 and the threads almost over. We’ll have to do without teacher again.

Yeah, she’s going to be busy with Cordell’s echoes for a while yet.

868 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:20:00pm

re: #866 SanFranciscoZionist

That’s not the definition of ‘occupied’. That’s the definition of ‘blockaded’.

ugh ,,, don’t start responding to everything the “good” doctor has posted unless you have
A) lots of patience
B) lots of time
C) lots of booze

869 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:20:16pm

re: #867 JasonA

Yeah, she’s going to be busy with Cordell’s echoes for a while yet.

see 868

870 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:20:20pm

re: #240 jamesfirecat

Track you down and kill you rather than someone at random associated with you.

When Israel does that, it’s targeted assassination, and the world community tends to object. Just mentioning.

Often the most humane things you could do in warfare are the ones you must never, never do, according to the rules of warfare. Probably because those rules tend to be written by people who would go on the hit list.

871 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:21:00pm

re: #242 drcordell

Not saying they didn’t. But I’m saying Israel needs to shit or get off the pot here. Pardon the crude analogy. But the point is, Israel keeps prosecuting this like it’s a war, while insisting it’s not. They need to either invade for real, or cut bait. Either annex all of Palestine and fold it into Israel, or make it an independent state.

This limbo they’re in right now with an effective apartheid state is simply alienating Israel’s international allies. And it’s only going to get worse if things continue as they have been.

What do you know about the Gaza withdrawal, why it happened, and what the consequences were?

872 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:21:18pm

comfortable?….dig this

873 Bagua  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:21:50pm

re: #846 reine.de.tout

Yes, indeed!
I haven’t had much patience this week, I’m afeerd.
I hate seeing all that oil continuing to spew out.

I think they very well may be successful with this, but here’s the problem - hurricane season started today. IF we happen to have a storm blow up, I don’t know that they can leave that ship out there safely, they’ll have to bring it in - leaving oil flowing again. I’ll be keeping my fingers crossed that nothing happens.

They will pick-it up during hurricanes I would think. Regardless, I don’t think they will capture much more than the RIT, possibly less when the increased flow is accounted for.

874 Mich-again  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:22:01pm

re: #856 Naso Tang

Howdy Naso. The TV coverage around here has been just dreadful. Showing the usual miscreants in Dearborn with their same-old banners yelping and whooping it up, and of course the dolts from the TV crew wouldn’t even dare to point out the inconvenient truths about how it all went down. You would think from the news coverage that the IDF dropped Johnny Rambo on the boat firing Uzi’s from each arm at a group of peaceful people holding hands and singing Kumbaya.

875 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:22:15pm

Anyboby else still watching the “CUT” robot lop off the riser pipe from the blow out preventer? The oil flow has grown so much as they cut further into the pipe that you can’t see the blade cutting anymore. They either got stuck or stopped cutting about ten minutes ago when they had barely cut into the pipe but then went back to it.

So far it looks like they are maybe a sixth of the way through the riser pipe, cross your fingers and hope that maybe this try works, otherwise it is just going to be an even worse leak till one of the relief wells can cap it.

876 abaleh  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:22:30pm

re: #205 Joo-LiZ

You are falling for the arithmetic game. It’s not about absolute numbers. It really is about circumstances and intent.

Talking absolute numbers, the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict is one of the least violent in the world (in terms of deaths). There was a comparative study done by Ben Dror Yemini, I dunno if it’s been published, but I saw him give a talk on it live once. It really is peanuts, for all the attention it gets.

There’s this study. It’s not about death tolls, but about refugee status.

877 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:22:42pm

re: #871 SanFranciscoZionist

What do you know about the Gaza withdrawal, why it happened, and what the consequences were?

he later proves the answer to that is

NUFFIN!

878 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:23:09pm

re: #875 ausador

Oops…linky thingie…

cdn.abclocal.go.com

879 Nimed  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:23:47pm

re: #862 JasonA

Ohhh that guy.

Actually, my impression of drcordell today improved. I had never seen him in a thread until yesterday, where he basically sounded like a provoking troll.

880 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:24:03pm

re: #254 Racer X

No.

The Palestinians need to recognize they LOST the war. Several fucking times. They LOST. Get over it.

Even better, they might recognize, publicly, who left them out to twist in the wind, just to piss of the Jews.

I would love it if Fatah would just extend a big “Fuck You” to the Arab world, declare a state, and ostentatiously ally themselves with Israel, after itemizing the ways in which they’ve been screwed over by the Arab nations.

881 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:24:36pm

re: #256 drcordell

If your child was burned to death by a white phosphorus shell, would you really care if it were intentional or not? Intentions don’t really matter when you’re talking life or death. A grieving mother is a grieving mother.

Totally true. Also, totally meaningless, unless you’ve invented some new way to wage war, where no one innocent gets hurt.

882 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:25:58pm

re: #260 drcordell

I am over it. Israel is the one with the huge fucking problem in their backyard, not me. I’m merely concerned with it because I don’t want to see Israel become an international pariah over their handling of the situation. Not to mention the fact that the U.S. is inexorably linked to the situation because of how much foreign aid we give Israel.

If Egypt, to whom we also give extensive aid, had killed ten of those Gaza March people when their border patrols were attacked, would they risk being international pariahs?

A small thought experiment.

883 Nimed  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:26:04pm

re: #880 SanFranciscoZionist

Even better, they might recognize, publicly, who left them out to twist in the wind, just to piss of the Jews.

I would love it if Fatah would just extend a big “Fuck You” to the Arab world, declare a state, and ostentatiously ally themselves with Israel, after itemizing the ways in which they’ve been screwed over by the Arab nations.

We had a discussion about Fatah yesterday. Pretty heated.

884 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:26:06pm

re: #879 Nimed

Actually, my impression of drcordell today improved. I had never seen him in a thread until yesterday, where he basically sounded like a provoking troll.

I just have to scroll past cordell usually, I don’t feel like finding my way through his language. I’m not particularly offended by any one thing he says, it’s just that he says so many things, the rest of what he’s trying to say sort of gets lost.

An anger management class might be in order … .

885 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:26:30pm

re: #854 Walter L. Newton

Nope… there are professional meteorite hunters, and dealers, I can’t afford to go on a hunt, so, I buy mine from dealers… I also have a contact in Morocco who works with the desert nomads who collect them all over the Sahara.

I understand that other than the most obvious shaping in larger pieces, the only real way to be sure it isn’t something else is by spectroscopic analysis of the composition. Do you have a way to verify what you get is real?

I have however gone on a few fossil hunts in Florida. I have a shitload of fossil dugong rib bones, a nice mastodon molar and a good size mammoth tooth, fossil deer antler and the usual shark teeth, turtle shells and so on.

If you can do anything with the dugong ribs I’ll ship you some. I have no idea if they will cut and polish nice.

886 Bagua  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:27:00pm

re: #875 ausador

Anyboby else still watching the “CUT” robot lop off the riser pipe from the blow out preventer? The oil flow has grown so much as they cut further into the pipe that you can’t see the blade cutting anymore. They either got stuck or stopped cutting about ten minutes ago when they had barely cut into the pipe but then went back to it.

So far it looks like they are maybe a sixth of the way through the riser pipe, cross your fingers and hope that maybe this try works, otherwise it is just going to be an even worse leak till one of the relief wells can cap it.

They paused after they nicked it to get an idea of the pressure, and then started again. They have only just broken through the pipe wall.

The relief wells are no sure fix.

887 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:27:55pm

re: #884 reine.de.tout

I just have to scroll past cordell usually, I don’t feel like finding my way through his language. I’m not particularly offended by any one thing he says, it’s just that he says so many things, the rest of what he’s trying to say sort of gets lost.

An anger management class might be in order …

He keeps us on our toes. It would be boring here without contrarians. But, I think he is on his way to becoming another Nodrog.

888 Red Pencil  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:28:26pm

re: #832 JasonA

Yeah, I rec’d that diary and made a comment. The diarist’s poll was more a reflection on the vibe that was going around the community than his own feelings. He was solidly in favor of Israel’s actions.

Yeah, I understood that. To clarify, when I said the poll was the “scary part”, I meant the ANSWERS. I mean, really, a solid quarter of these people recommend the IDF either get killed or commit suicide. 59% do not believe the IDF should defend itself, which amounts to a landslide for Israel’s suicide.

889 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:28:58pm

re: #855 SanFranciscoZionist

That’s a really key issue. I’m passionately involved of course—you might have noticed my nick—but in terms of what this represents on the worldwide stage o’ people killing one another, the conflict has maintained a highly controlled level of violence for decades.

And people who should know better said with straight faces that the suffering of the Palestinians was like nothing else in the world. They said this while literal millions were dying in African wars.

Hey SFZ, pop me an e-mail if you have a chance (my nick is blue). I’d like to start a correspondence.

890 Drogheda  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:29:18pm

re: #886 Bagua

Bagua do you have any idea what sort of rate they cut through the pipe at? I’m assuming they’d go at it very, very slowly in order to reduce the risk of breaking the cutting wire.

891 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:29:36pm

re: #887 Alouette

He keeps us on our toes. It would be boring here without contrarians. But, I think he is on his way to becoming another Nodrog.

I enjoy the give and take.
Life would be terribly boring if we were all the same. When the threads get moving with a good discussion, well, I find it gets me thinking, enlivens me in some way -

Of course, on this issue, cordell is just wrong. I don’t think he has a good grasp of any facts.

892 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:30:09pm

Want to see a pretty crappy image that’s making the rounds? (again, courtesy of Sully): andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com

893 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:30:35pm

re: #891 reine.de.tout

I agree
I enjoy the give and take.
Life would be terribly boring if we were all the same. When the threads get moving with a good discussion, well, I find it gets me thinking, enlivens me in some way
//

894 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:31:18pm

re: #346 drcordell

Yes, because they are all monolithic in thought. No dissent whatsoever. They all think alike.

Same could be said for Israel, but you refer to them in pretty monolithic terms. We’re speaking here of the actions of nations, not of individuals.

895 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:31:27pm

re: #891 reine.de.tout

I enjoy the give and take.
Life would be terribly boring if we were all the same. When the threads get moving with a good discussion, well, I find it gets me thinking, enlivens me in some way -

.

Does that mean you forgive me, for now?

896 Nimed  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:31:35pm

re: #887 Alouette

He keeps us on our toes. It would be boring here without contrarians. But, I think he is on his way to becoming another Nodrog.

Which would be a bad thing, I presume.

897 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:32:19pm

re: #895 Naso Tang

Does that mean you forgive me, for now?

Of course!
Every thread is a new day!

898 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:32:53pm

re: #897 reine.de.tout

Of course!
Every thread is a new day!

Great. Then I can sleep well.

Goodnight.

899 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:33:02pm

re: #895 Naso Tang

Does that mean you forgive me, for now?

Besides - was I mad at you about something?

900 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:33:05pm

re: #897 reine.de.tout

Of course!
Every thread is a new day!

Another way of saying that spending time on LGF makes you really old really fast.

901 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:33:14pm

re: #362 Spare O’Lake

I hate to defend anyone here who is carping about how we all pick on the poor widdle Palis, but it is starting to look like this was a Turkish operation from the get go. The Turks have been steadily moving towards radical Islam and away from a secular government, and it looks like this is Erdogan’s chosen moment to make his big move in the Islamic Middle East. This incident gives him the cover he needs to sever ties with Israel and to whip up sufficient domestic support to keep the generals under control while he ushers in the Islamic State in alliance with Iran.
Hamas and the Palis are surrogate pawns in this larger regional play.

You think it was bigger than IHH?

Wheee! I don’t know enough about Turkey these days to say if that’s a interesting idea, or batshit crazy, but it’s sure interesting.

So far, not at all clear to me if Hamas had any idea this was coming in, but it’s convenient for them either way.

902 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:33:33pm

re: #900 JasonA

Another way of saying that spending time on LGF makes you really old really fast.

I’m already old.

903 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:33:47pm

re: #896 Nimed

Which would be a bad thing, I presume.

Gordon was a once-in-a-lifetime- experience (I hope)

904 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:34:22pm

re: #902 reine.de.tout

I’m already old.

in bed?
/

905 Mich-again  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:34:49pm

So much support for Palestinians from enlightened westerners can be reduced to this.. Its never the lion’s fault when he attacks the lion tamer. Its racism of lowered expectations.

906 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:35:01pm

re: #376 drcordell

Yeah, and he was a FUCKING ASSHOLE. Stop lumping in an entire population of people with one misguided leader. I sure as fuck wouldn’t like anyone I meet to equate anything George Bush did with how I feel. Everyone on this board treats “Palestinians” like some monolithic entity that feels and acts the same way about everything.

No, we don’t. But you don’t seem to know the conflict well enough to talk about the Palestinian or Israeli leadership in nuanced terms. Who, now, is in any position to rectify mistakes that Arafat made, or wishes to?

907 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:35:23pm

re: #903 sattv4u2

Gordon was a once-in-a-lifetime- experience (I hope)

you loved him, just like everybody…admit it

908 Nimed  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:36:07pm

re: #903 sattv4u2

Gordon was a once-in-a-lifetime- experience (I hope)

Took me a while for Nodrog=Gordon. Quite a tradition of inverted names in LGF. But hey, if he pissed you off, he can’t be all that bad…

909 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:36:14pm

re: #840 JasonA

[Link: andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com…]

Here’s Sullivan’s “Face of the Day,” which I’m pretty sure is in the middle of saying “Death to Israel.” Really curious about what those signs say in the background.

“Palin’s baby stinks!”
/

910 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:36:21pm

re: #385 windsagio

Too lazy to look it up, but there was that image the other night of douchey kids taunting the Palestinian woman.

PS: Its nice that you suddenly care about evidence… I presume you learned that from the other side?

Oh, for the love of God. Some teenagers acting like putzes are now indicative of trends in Israeli society? You want to see some others?

911 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:36:23pm

re: #900 JasonA

Another way of saying that spending time on LGF makes you really old really fast.

I was already “really old” when I got here
DAMN! re: #907 albusteve

you loved him, just like everybody…admit it

Nahhh,,

I only love you

and Walter
and Fat BV
and ,,,,

912 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:36:48pm

(SFC is like…talking to herself….is that cool?)

913 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:37:42pm

re: #908 Nimed

Took me a while for Nodrog=Gordon. Quite a tradition of inverted names in LGF. But hey, if he pissed you off, he can’t be all that bad…


Actually, much like DrC, he didn’t “piss me off” as much as amuse me to see someone with such strong opinions bereft of facts to support them

914 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:37:46pm

re: #409 Spare O’Lake

Good thing the US has the staunchly pro-Israel Obama who will never sell out Israel in order to placate the Turks.

He won’t. And if you think he will, it’s because you’re absolutely delusional on the subject of Barack Obama. But you know that I think that already.

915 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:37:47pm

re: #912 albusteve

(SFC is like…talking to herself…is that cool?)

(Shh. I think it’s therapeutic for her.)

916 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:38:06pm

re: #912 albusteve

(SFC is like…talking to herself…is that cool?)

((we’re waiting till she catches up to us!!))

917 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:38:09pm

re: #912 albusteve

(SFC is like…talking to herself…is that cool?)

SanFransicoCyclops
huh?

918 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:38:17pm

re: #912 albusteve

(SFC is like…talking to herself…is that cool?)

Totally cool. Let her get it out. She has some good points too.

919 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:38:33pm

re: #419 Spare O’Lake

Hmmm…Turkey vs Iran? Let’s hope.

This is your idea of fun? I’m going to hide under the bed now.

920 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:38:51pm

re: #916 sattv4u2

((we’re waiting till she catches up to us!!))

at least she’s not yelling at me….

921 Nimed  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:39:00pm

re: #906 SanFranciscoZionist

No, we don’t. But you don’t seem to know the conflict well enough to talk about the Palestinian or Israeli leadership in nuanced terms. Who, now, is in any position to rectify mistakes that Arafat made, or wishes to?

Hm… Abbas? Sort of?

922 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:39:03pm

re: #912 albusteve

(SFC is like…talking to herself…is that cool?)

I’ve been trying to figure a way to go upthread and catch her. But I can’t figure out how to do it.

923 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:39:45pm

I should go to sleep, but I have to see how SFZ reacts when she gets to Charles posts to drcordell.

924 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:39:56pm

re: #920 albusteve

at least she’s not yelling at me…

YET!

925 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:39:58pm

re: #922 reine.de.tout

I’ve been trying to figure a way to go upthread and catch her. But I can’t figure out how to do it.

ask her, if you can get her attention….she’s gotta look up sooner or later

926 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:40:01pm

re: #422 drcordell

I’ve been clattering away answering questions for my past few posts. Now I want to pose a few. How about someone tells me exactly how they see this situation playing out for Israel?

How does Israel intend to end the conflict with it’s current course of action? When will the methodology of “you launch a rocket I blow up your whole neighborhood” start seeing dividends?

Israel intends to stay alive, and within defensible borders. So far, they’ve managed to keep going, and create functional working relationships with Egypt and Jordan, as well as gradually move closer to a disfunctional but largely nonviolent situation in the West Bank. Gaza remains a deeply difficult problem.

I’d say they’re doing pretty well, all things considered.

927 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:40:25pm

re: #923 Alouette

I should go to sleep, but I have to see how SFZ reacts when she gets to Charles posts to drcordell.

I know!
This is almost as exciting as the Gaza Rooster!

Well, this and the oil rig live feed.

928 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:40:26pm

re: #923 Alouette

I should go to sleep, but I have to see how SFZ reacts when she gets to Charles posts to drcordell.

I know, hah! I’m in bed, delaying the moment I turn off my computer. *sigh* Why LGF, WHY!

929 Nimed  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:40:33pm

To weenie downdinger RedPencil - 908 was a joke.

930 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:40:43pm

Heh. Not even halfway there. Or here. Whatever.

931 pingjockey  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:40:46pm

re: #923 Alouette

Evenin’. How far back up thread?

932 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:40:49pm

re: #902 reine.de.tout

I’m already old.

Remember “you are only as old as you feel”, of course what they fail to tell you in that slogan is how it feels to be old. Being old hurts dammit!

933 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:40:51pm

re: #923 Alouette

I should go to sleep, but I have to see how SFZ reacts when she gets to Charles posts to drcordell.

“How do you spell R-E-L-I-E-F

934 albusteve  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:41:01pm

re: #924 sattv4u2

YET!

I’m ready….pass the Red Stripe while we wait

935 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:41:16pm

re: #931 pingjockey

Evenin’. How far back up thread?

In the 460’s I think.

936 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:41:22pm

re: #437 drcordell

Let me guess, you are SHOCKED, JUST SHOCKED, that the Somalis keep letting those crazed warlords take control of their country! Why don’t they just put a nice guy in power for once!

So is your point that Gaza is not a real democracy? Too damn true. What to do?

937 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:41:30pm

re: #929 Nimed

To weenie downdinger RedPencil - 908 was a joke.

OK, I countered it.

938 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:42:27pm

LOST - SFZ

/watch out for the black smoke.

939 Bagua  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:42:38pm

re: #890 Drogheda

Bagua do you have any idea what sort of rate they cut through the pipe at? I’m assuming they’d go at it very, very slowly in order to reduce the risk of breaking the cutting wire.


It took over an hour to penetrate the thickness of it. It will be slower once it starts cutting the Drill Pipe inside the Riser.

940 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:42:49pm

re: #465 drcordell

Am I wrong in stating that as Israel’s methodology? I was under the impression that was their stated operating procedure. Meet a display of violence with overwhelming force, and hope it serves as a deterrent. Am I wrong there?

Entirely, yes.

941 pingjockey  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:43:07pm

re: #935 Alouette
Holy Moly! Then again it was a loooong day. I went straight to the laundry room and undressed and put my work clothes straight into the washer. They were that bad!

942 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:43:35pm

re: #940 SanFranciscoZionist

Entirely, yes.

almost halfway home!

943 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:43:57pm

re: #923 Alouette

I should go to sleep, but I have to see how SFZ reacts when she gets to Charles posts to drcordell.

She’s passed it.

944 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:44:02pm

Cmon SFZ we’re all rootin’ for ya!

945 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:44:24pm

re: #490 drcordell

In a contested election where the only other party running against them was a failed, corrupt government that had achieved nothing.

So, Meretz should run someone, to help out?

946 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:44:27pm

re: #937 reine.de.tout

OK, I countered it.

I wasn’t sure myself, so discretion being the better part ,,, I left it alone!

947 Nimed  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:44:49pm

re: #937 reine.de.tout

OK, I countered it.

Thanks. :)

Apparently, no quip is obvious enough to dispense the sarc tag.

948 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:44:52pm

re: #945 SanFranciscoZionist

So, Meretz should run someone, to help out?

That was good!

949 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:45:12pm

re: #492 albusteve

too bad…so what?…that’s the Jews problem?

Israelis. Israeli Arabs elect people to the Knesset, most of whom aren’t actually insane. (A couple of the Balad MKs I have my doubts about.)

950 pingjockey  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:45:44pm

re: #944 Alouette
Is she answering all of the docs’ posts?

951 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:45:48pm

re: #943 Joo-LiZ

She’s passed it.

She’s aimed at the jugular, skipping the ones she agrees/ supports her, just whacking the ones that are egregiously wrong

WAVIN AT YA, DR. C. !!!

952 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:46:01pm

re: #950 pingjockey

SEE 951

953 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:46:50pm

I hate coming into a thread late. Usually I will just go straight to the bottom. I don’t have SFZ’s patience and determination.

954 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:47:45pm

re: #953 Alouette

I hate coming into a thread late. Usually I will just go straight to the bottom. I don’t have SFZ’s patience and determination.

I think Target had them on sale this week

955 pingjockey  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:48:04pm

re: #952 sattv4u2
Thanks. I didn’t have the energy to read the whole thing. I did read some of Charles rebuttals and I asked the same things yesterday to a couple of folks, IIRC doc was one and never got an answer. Ah well.

956 pingjockey  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:49:00pm

re: #953 Alouette
Me neither, especially when I log in and the thread is 800 plus posts!

957 Bagua  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:49:08pm

SFZ has the patience of a saint.

958 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:49:37pm

re: #554 drcordell

Yes. Every single Gazan decided to take those actions. It was a completely unified response. 100% participation.

Aiyah.

OK, some, perhaps many people were opposed. They wanted the greenhouses, and realized that their destruction was bad.

So what? God knows, I feel for these people, but the fact is, Gaza’s potential infrastructure was trashed in days, and can’t be replaced. Saying ‘not everyone in Gaza agreed’ does absolutely nothing to solve anyone’s problem, least of all the average Gazan on the street’s.

959 pingjockey  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:50:11pm

Gonna go upthread take a peak and then it’s good night.
Good night folks.

960 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:50:11pm

re: #947 Nimed

Thanks. :)

Apparently, no quip is obvious enough to dispense the sarc tag.

Not until folks know you a bit.
I usually just go ahead and include it just to be safe.

961 Nimed  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:50:27pm

re: #953 Alouette

I hate coming into a thread late. Usually I will just go straight to the bottom. I don’t have SFZ’s patience and determination.

Not to mention the risk that the subject changed when you finally catch up.

962 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:51:04pm

re: #953 Alouette

I hate coming into a thread late. Usually I will just go straight to the bottom. I don’t have SFZ’s patience and determination.

Me too.
I might read the first 10 or so, but then go down to the bottom.

963 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:51:17pm

re: #586 marjoriemoon

Where are these peaceful Gazans you speak of?

Keeping their heads down, and trying to figure out a way to get papers to stay with Afif’s aunt in Egypt.

964 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:52:10pm

re: #961 Nimed

Not to mention the risk that the subject changed when you finally catch up.

Hell, with my (lack of) typing skills the subject usually changes while I’m answering a direct question TO me, let alone trying to “catch up”

965 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:52:31pm

re: #961 Nimed

Not to mention the risk that the subject changed when you finally catch up.

I’ve come into threads and put myself in the middle of a shouting match that I had no business getting into, because I didn’t read all the related posts. It can be a dangerous thing.

966 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:52:57pm

re: #961 Nimed

Not to mention the risk that the subject changed when you finally catch up.

It usually has…

967 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:53:09pm

re: #965 reine.de.tout

I’ve come into threads and put myself in the middle of a shouting match that I had no business getting into, because I didn’t read all the related posts. It can be a dangerous thing.


but fun!!
/

968 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:53:24pm

re: #638 Alouette

Self-hating Jew? No. Jew-hating Arab.

Member of the Knesset calls for the establishment of Islamic Caliphate in Israel.

There’s nothing like Israeli politics. Unless it is maybe Texas politics.

969 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:54:16pm

re: #964 sattv4u2

Hell, with my (lack of) typing skills the subject usually changes while I’m answering a direct question TO me, let alone trying to “catch up”

Been there, done, that, but someone stole my t-shirt while I was trying to get away…

970 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:54:33pm

re: #968 SanFranciscoZionist

Bring it home, SFZ

You’re within 350 posts!

971 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:54:35pm

re: #964 sattv4u2

Hell, with my (lack of) typing skills the subject usually changes while I’m answering a direct question TO me, let alone trying to “catch up”

Might help if you swap the comma and period keys on your board.
/

972 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:54:51pm

re: #970 sattv4u2

Bring it home, SFZ

You’re within 350 posts!

100 of which are us cheering her on :p

973 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:56:42pm

re: #971 JasonA

Might help if you swap the comma and period keys on your board.
/

ROFL!

974 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:58:03pm

re: #972 Joo-LiZ

100 of which are us cheering her on :p

SFZ is very patient, but you were too, earlier, very impressive IMO.

975 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:58:09pm

re: #831 Dark_Falcon

Hi, SFZ. How are you?

Crazy days, but pretty good.

976 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:59:44pm

re: #974 reine.de.tout

SFZ is very patient, but you were too, earlier, very impressive IMO.

When are you referring too?

And thanks =)

977 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:00:35pm

Lol… anyways, I’m off, for real this time.

Midnight here, and an early morning tomorrow.

Good night!

978 Nimed  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:01:18pm

re: #971 JasonA

Might help if you swap the comma and period keys on your board.
/

Oh boy, you’re so screwed. Just you wait until he finishes typing his awesome comeback.

979 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:02:57pm

re: #978 Nimed

Oh boy, you’re so screwed. Just you wait until he finishes typing his awesome comeback.

Okay, I actually did laugh out loud.

980 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:06:38pm

re: #915 JasonA

(Shh. I think it’s therapeutic for her.)

I am linearly disabled! I keep telling you people that! I have a parking plaque for my car and everything!

;)

981 Racer X  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:07:52pm

Everyone hide! Here she comes!

982 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:09:56pm

Hi, everyone! I made it!

(Any potato salad left?)

983 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:10:36pm

Okay, I’m going upstairs.

:P

984 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:10:48pm

re: #982 SanFranciscoZionist

Hi, everyone! I made it!

(Any potato salad left?)

Yay!

985 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:13:43pm

Fooltilla Update

The Flotilla in the Israeli Press

Not many atrocities can be less controversial than Israel’s attack on the Turkish-based flotilla heading to Gaza yesterday. Like Somali pirates, Israel attacked the boats in international waters. Like the darkest regimes, Israeli forces opened fire on unarmed civilians who had not posed a threat to anybody, except to the siege that Israel (with Egyptian co-operation and U.S. backing) imposes on Gaza. Condemnation of what the Turkish prime minister rightly termed “an act of state terrorism” has been global, except for the shameful mumbling of the American government (but what can you expect from the complicit?).

986 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:13:57pm

My dad had completely bought in to the “Evil Israel starving the Gazans” meme, I just hadn’t realized it until tonight. I was talking about what was being posted here and elsewhere about the blockade incident and was stupefied to discover that he was buying the media line of “Israel attacking a humanitarian convey bringing desperately needed supplies to Gaza.”

BTW, my father is a Spanish Jew by birth…but non-practicing now.

I got him turned around, but only by being able to show him video files from numerous sources on his beloved 42” HDTV. Sigh…if it is on the T.V. it is real, if it is from a computer it can’t be trusted, nevermind that I am using the computers HDMI graphics card to play video from the computer for him on the T.V..

987 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:21:57pm

re: #985 Rightwingconspirator

RWC please use the “quote tags” next time so people will not assume that you wrote that hateful drivel.

988 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:27:03pm

re: #987 ausador

Thread’s dead, baby. Thread’s dead.

989 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:30:31pm

re: #988 JasonA

Thread’s dead, baby. Thread’s dead.

Logically you have just disproved your statement. :p

990 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:35:13pm

re: #989 ausador

Logically you have just disproved your statement. :p

No logic whatsoever. I rarely let a good opportunity to make a Pulp Fiction reference slip away.

991 Nimed  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:38:43pm

Rep. Anthony Weiner:
salon.com

While the demand for answers seems to echo in capitals around the world, the facts here are largely known.

We know this tragedy was instigated by Turkey. We know that Israel had not only warned that this boat was in violation of an entirely lawful blockade, but had offered safe harbor to the boat in Ashdod. We also know that a known terrorist group – Hamas – has put its hateful agenda over the well being of its people.

Any loss of life is tragic. This loss was the result of Turkish instigation and Hamas terror policies. Even if we are the only country on earth that sees the facts here, the United States should stand up for Israel.

992 sancho  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:47:50pm

Only on LGF will people mock Glenn Beck for raving about the End Times, then come straight across and froth about Israel’s right to do whatever it likes because, you know, it’s God’s chosen land.

993 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:51:51pm

re: #992 sancho

Wow. I totally missed that in the comments. See, I thought we were defending Israel’s right to defend itself because it’s actually a civilized country. Hell, I’m an atheist. I don’t really give two shits what anyone’s god says. So… you fail.

994 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:53:35pm

re: #992 sancho

Hmm…I don’t recall anyone anyone defending Israel for that reason, care to link me to the post?

Seems to me most people were defending Israel because, well, they were in the right.

995 Gus  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:53:42pm

re: #992 sancho

Froth about Israel’s right?

Hang on let me check. Yep, I’m still an atheist. Hang on, let me check something else. Yep, still support Israel.

My support is for secular reasons.

996 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:54:41pm

re: #992 sancho

Only on LGF will people mock Glenn Beck for raving about the End Times, then come straight across and froth about Israel’s right to do whatever it likes because, you know, it’s God’s chosen land.

No one here has said any such thing.

997 ClaudeMonet  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 12:10:28am

re: #109 drcordell

A large majority of the Palestinians who actually voted in the election. Just a bit of a difference. I refuse to simply lump every man woman and child into a single lot and say they deserve to be shelled with white phosphorus simply because they happen to have been born into a war zone.

You really can’t give up on that old, discredited BS, can you?

BTW, I’ve yet to hear you NOT lump all Israelis together, even though they’re governed by a coalition government in which no one gets along. I suppose that to you

—every senior citizen who made aliyah in order to spend a few years in a land governed by Jews;

—every emigre from the FSU who didn’t want to be discriminated against “back home”;

—every child that doesn’t know diddly about international geopolitics but wouldn’t mind if Mommy, Daddy, and little brother didn’t get splattered by a Hamas rocket;

—every student who wants to achieve their potential;

—every person who just wants to live a normal life, not one filled with suicide bombers and ranting leftitists;

—is part of some Great 100% Involved Lock-Step Conspiracy to oppress the Gazans in their sh**hole territory that neither ancient nor modern Israel has wanted one damned thing to do with other than to not be attacked by its denizens.

998 Four More Tears  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 12:13:12am

Yo. Hawaii 5-0. Anything you’d actually care to discuss or comment on?

999 richard12  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 12:23:23am

As a result of the terrorist laden freedom flotilla, Israel is being is being isolated in the international arena. There can be no doubt, Israel screws up again and again. They constantly fall in the traps set for them, and cause death and destruction. The question is, should Israel be ashamed of itself?

Click the link on my username to read about this subject. And its recommended, even if you don’t think they should be.

1000 richard12  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 12:24:13am

Should Israel be ashamed of Itself?

As a result of the terrorist laden freedom flotilla, Israel is being is being isolated in the international arena. There can be no doubt, Israel screws up again and again. They constantly fall in the traps set for them, and cause death and destruction. The question is, should Israel be ashamed of itself?

Click the link on my username to read about this subject. And its recommended, even if you don’t think they should be.

1001 richard12  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 12:25:14am

Should Israel be ashamed of Itself?

Sorry about that people. One last try, with a working link.

As a result of the terrorist laden freedom flotilla, Israel is being is being isolated in the international arena. There can be no doubt, Israel screws up again and again. They constantly fall in the traps set for them, and cause death and destruction. The question is, should Israel be ashamed of itself?

Click the link on my username to read about this subject. And its recommended, even if you don’t think they should be.

1002 ClaudeMonet  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 12:40:02am

re: #320 windsagio

On a sidenote, its not my blog, but I’d freaking pay good money for a ‘flotilla post moratorium’.

We’ve been recycling the same fight for 2 days straight now.

If you don’t like getting your a** kicked because you’ve taken a moonbat position, don’t pick a fight.

1003 ClaudeMonet  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 1:11:10am

re: #567 darthstar

If the Israelis lay down their arms, they’re dead. They know this.
If the Palestinians lay down their arms, their “leaders” won’t know what the hell to do and will lose control over their subjects. They know this.

1004 Li'l Mamzer  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 5:17:31am

Humanitarian crisis in Gaza? Where?

Fascinating recent 17-page travel journal from American woman who spent 9 days amongst the residents of Gaza. Despite obvious anti-Israel bias, her many photos (and text) don’t show anything close to extreme hardship. In fact, Gaza looks affluent and comfortable, especially the visit to the Roots Resort.

1005 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 5:36:23am

I’ve been following LGF for a long time as the one site in the US where one can find reasonably well informed commentary from a variety of political persuasions. I am stunned to see how uniformed the OP and many others are on the situation regarding the three year blockade that has transformed the Gaza into an open air concentration camp where children die from illness induced by malnutrition and lack of sanitary water every day.. Please read further about the true situation than Fox News and IDF press releases. With the availability of the internet there is no excuse for freerepublic type ignorance. And think again before you label aid workers from Europe, including parliamentarians, noble peace prize winner and a holocaust survivor as terrorists. godlikeproductions.com

1006 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 5:42:48am

re: #1004 Li’l Mamzer

I took a glance at your link and this phrase stands out on the first page:

However, our mental health host tells us that the children don’t feel safe. 25-30% of the children in the schools need mental health intervention, which amounts to approx 250,000 children. Starting in kindergarten, they have counselling groups in 10 different schools, with weekly visits. ADHD, and bedwetting, stuttering, and self mutiliation is prevelent among these children. Teaching the parents about how to manage these problems at home is part of the goal. Ironically, there is a 90% incidence of mood disorders among the entire population of gaza from rage to depression plus everything inbetween. This is so prevelent that it does no good to address it in it’s entiriity, but is considered normal” for this region. I think it should be addressed for sure

That doesn’t sound too “comfortable” to me.

1007 Li'l Mamzer  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 5:52:27am

re: #1006 imokyrok

I took a glance at your link and this phrase stands out on the first page:

That doesn’t sound too “comfortable” to me.

I said it looks comfortable enough - visually, from the photos on the blog - and yes, any children in any warzone will suffer some trauma. I don’t automatically believe the numbers she cites. She also neglects to mention the effects of Hamas genocidal indoctrination on Gaza’s childrens’ psyches. Nor does she mention anything about psychological trauma suffered by Israeli children living under the rain of Hamas rockets, but then, I didn’t expect her to. She’s not entirely open-minded.

She says:


90% incidence of mood disorders among the entire population of gaza from rage to depression plus everything inbetween.

Growing up in an acid-bath of Jew-hatred and Sharia might do that, you know.

1008 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 6:04:30am

re: #1007 Li’l Mamzer

So might this:
google.ie

1009 Li'l Mamzer  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 6:06:08am

re: #1006 imokyrok

I took a glance at your link and this phrase stands out on the first page:

That doesn’t sound too “comfortable” to me.

She also says:

there is a 90% incidence of mood disorders among the entire population of gaza from rage to depression plus everything inbetween. This is so prevelent that it does no good to address it in it’s entiriity, but is considered normal” for this region. I think it should be addressed for sure…

I think it should be addressed as well. You know, when your own government broadcasts children’s tv shows which tell them that it’s a good thing to grow up and strap bombs on yourself in order to kill some Jews, how would you”address” the issue of mood swings among the population? I know how you would address - blame the Jews. So fuck you.

1010 captdiggs  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 6:12:11am

I could go on here for pages. But suffice it to say that world’s upside down abject hypocrisy concerning Israel is appalling, as always.
Turkey bombs Kurdish villages…no UN…not a word said
Lebanon levels a palestinian concentration camp with artillery…no UN…not a word said…oh…except for support from other arab nations on Lebanon’s need to corral the rowdies.
North Korea torpedoes a South Korean ship killing 42…no UN rush to judgment there.
On the day Israel stopped the terror-aid armada, over a dozen people were murdered in an attack on a hospital in Pakistan. Barely a ripple in the news.

The hyper focus on demonizing Israel is moral bankruptcy and hypocricy on a grand scale.

1011 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 6:18:44am

re: #1009 Li’l Mamzer

Most Jews - at least those who haven’t emigrated to Israel are intelligent, rational humane people so no I don’t blame Jews. I blame Israelis who massacre children and aid workers and those like you who enable them.

1012 Li'l Mamzer  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 6:22:07am

re: #1011 imokyrok

Most Jews - at least those who haven’t emigrated to Israel are intelligent, rational humane people so no I don’t blame Jews. I blame Israelis who massacre children and aid workers and those like you who enable them.

You mean the Muslim-Brotherhood/IHH “aid workers” who stabbed Israeli soldiers, threw one overboard, bashed heads with metal rods, chanted jihadist slogans, and tried to run a legal blockade in a warzone? Right.

1013 Li'l Mamzer  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 6:23:22am

re: #1011 imokyrok

Most Jews - at least those who haven’t emigrated to Israel are intelligent, rational humane people so no I don’t blame Jews. I blame Israelis who massacre children and aid workers and those like you who enable them.

And some of your best friends are Jews…………

1014 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 6:25:38am

re: #1013 Li’l Mamzer

I couldn’t give a fiddlers about anyone religion. They are all equally stupid. I judge people by their actions not which imaginary cloud dude they believe in.

1015 Li'l Mamzer  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 6:27:50am

re: #1014 imokyrok

I couldn’t give a fiddlers about anyone religion. They are all equally stupid. I judge people by their actions not which imaginary cloud dude they believe in.

Apparently you don’t, though,
Where is your condemnation of Hamas - what they represent, what they call for, what they have done, what they are doing now, and what they vow to do in the future?

Hypocrite.

1016 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 6:31:44am

re: #1012 Li’l Mamzer

You’ve been memorizing those IDF press releases again. You need to broaden your reading material. European aid workers including a holocaust survivor, parliamentarians, a noble peace prize winner and yes Turkish charity workers were illegally boarded in international workers by murderous thugs and they attempted to defend themselves. And all to prevent school books, cement and toys reaching a besieged and devasted people. People like Mairead Murphy , Caoimhe Butterely, and Fiachra O’Luain and Heddy Epstein.
godlikeproductions.com

1017 Li'l Mamzer  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 6:35:26am

re: #1016 imokyrok

You’ve been memorizing those IDF press releases again. You need to broaden your reading material. European aid workers including a holocaust survivor, parliamentarians, a noble peace prize winner and yes Turkish charity workers were illegally boarded in international workers by murderous thugs and they attempted to defend themselves. And all to prevent school books, cement and toys reaching a besieged and devasted people. People like Mairead Murphy , Caoimhe Butterely, and Fiachra O’Luain and Heddy Epstein.
[Link: www.godlikeproductions.com…]

BFD who was on the boat. Shame on them for degrading themselves.
Let me guess - you like Chomsky.
And the boat wasn’t illegally boarded. Get it straight.

Charity workers……….

1018 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 6:36:02am

re: #1015 Li’l Mamzer

This thread is about the atrocity happened to the people trying to relieve the suffering of innocent Gazans. When you have a thread about a Hamas atrocity I’ll pop along and criticise them then. Just as I do in many other places. Oppressors whether they be Israel, Hamas, Saudi Arabian or American are not immune to criticism.

1019 Li'l Mamzer  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 6:46:05am

re: #1018 imokyrok

This thread is about the atrocity happened to the people trying to relieve the suffering of innocent Gazans.

Fixed it for ya:

This thread is about the atrocity committed by the people trying to break the legal blockade in order to aid and abet Gaza’s Islamist terrorist rulers.
1020 What, me worry?  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 6:51:14am

re: #1005 imokyrok

Liar.

Following LGF a long time? Then you know how supportive of Israel LGF has always been. Yet you wait until this thread is dead with 9 people logged in to spew your outrageous lies. Innocent Gazans? Go post on Stormfront where they will cheer you.

1021 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 7:05:40am
1022 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 7:16:14am

re: #1021 MandyManners

Yeah, let’s give them cement so they can build bunkers.

It’s a Useful Idiot Troll, Mandy. It doesn’t understand the facts, it just sees Hamas as oppressed little underdogs. A troll like that forgets that in this case the underdog is rabid.

1023 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 7:17:52am

re: #1006 imokyrok

I took a glance at your link and this phrase stands out on the first page [there follows a long paragraph].

You have an interesting notion of what constitutes a “phrase”. Other than that, you’re just another apologist for Jew-hatred and terror.

1024 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 7:18:21am

re: #1020 marjoriemoon

Believe what you like. Teabaggers will anyway.

1025 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 7:19:42am

re: #1023 Cato the Elder

Don’t you ever get bored with the anti semitism card when anybody around the world disagrees with you? Yawn!

1026 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 7:20:50am

re: #1025 imokyrok

Don’t you ever get bored with the anti semitism card when anybody around the world disagrees with you? Yawn!

Don’t you get tired of subsisting on a diet of state Hamas jism?

1027 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 7:21:22am

PIMF: “stale”

1028 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 7:24:30am

re: #1022 Dark_Falcon

I didn’t bring up Hamas. If you want me to say that Khalid Mashal is as barbaric as Netanyahu I’ve no problem with that. A plague on both their houses. But the innocent men women and children of Gaza- all one and a half million of them are entitled to the necessities of life just as any Israeli is.

1029 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 7:31:50am

re: #1028 imokyrok

I didn’t bring up Hamas. If you want me to say that Khalid Mashal is as barbaric as Netanyahu I’ve no problem with that. A plague on both their houses. But the innocent men women and children of Gaza- all one and a half million of them are entitled to the necessities of life just as any Israeli is.

Well, first; I don’t find Benjamin Netanyahu barbaric is any way and I don’t see how you could. He’s a conservative in the best traditions of the word: favoring free markets, strong national defense, and social stability (though that last can have some problems). Most of the population of Gaza favors the murder of Jews and is thus far from innocent. And they are receiving the necessities of life. Don’t believe Islamist propaganda.

1030 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 7:38:12am

re: #1029 Dark_Falcon

This is barbarism.
google.ie

The whole world sees it for the slaughter it is. Netanyahu is directly reponsible for bombing an open air prison where the people had nowhere to run.

1031 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 7:39:09am

re: #1029 Dark_Falcon

I believe John Ging.

1032 Li'l Mamzer  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 7:39:10am

re: #1028 imokyrok

If you want me to say that Khalid Mashal is as barbaric as Netanyahu I’ve no problem with that.

Moral relativism alert.

1033 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 7:44:02am

re: #1028 imokyrok

I didn’t bring up Hamas. If you want me to say that Khalid Mashal is as barbaric as Netanyahu I’ve no problem with that. A plague on both their houses. But the innocent men women and children of Gaza- all one and a half million of them are entitled to the necessities of life just as any Israeli is.

Not bringing up Hamas in relation to the people of Gaza is like failing to mention cancer in a person with tumors all over his body.

1034 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 7:45:19am

re: #1030 imokyrok

This is barbarism.
[Link: www.google.ie…]

The whole world sees it for the slaughter it is. Netanyahu is directly reponsible for bombing an open air prison where the people had nowhere to run.

Some of those ‘dead’ look like dolls or mannequins to me. Moreover, Hamas often uses make casualty photos to try to whip up outrage, these could just be more of those. And even if their authenticity were allowed, the primary guilt would rest with Hamas for its rocket barrage against Israel. Israel had to act to end the firings and Hams then chose to hide behind civilians.

1035 charles_martel  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 7:45:30am

Terror cell was in control of ship:

debka.com

The IHH connection has been verified on the Jerusalem Post. There is a video of the Deputy FM here:

jpost.com

1036 cliffster  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 7:46:07am

imokyrok hesok shesok wrallok let’s have a party

1037 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:00:23am

re: #1034 Dark_Falcon

Thats pretty much what I expected to hear. Wingers never show compassion however extreme the suffering.

1038 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:00:49am

re: #1031 imokyrok

I believe John Ging.

UNRWA exists solely to prolong the “plight” of the Palestinians in perpetuity. Believing what they say is like taking the word of the fox on the state of the henhouse.

1039 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:04:05am

re: #1037 imokyrok

Thats pretty much what I expected to hear. Wingers never show compassion however extreme the suffering.

“extreme suffering”
hmm,, how about the untold millions that Arafat siphoned away for his own personal fortune that could (SHOULD) have been used for infrastructure
How about mothers strapping bomb vests onto children whose only crime was being born
How about older brothers using those same mothers and children as human shields so they can then show pictures of the “suffering”

1040 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:05:05am

re: #1037 imokyrok

re: #1039 sattv4u2

“extreme suffering”
hmm,, how about the untold millions that Arafat siphoned away for his own personal fortune that could (SHOULD) have been used for infrastructure
How about mothers strapping bomb vests onto children whose only crime was being born
How about older brothers using those same mothers and children as human shields so they can then show pictures of the “suffering”

is THAT the “extreme suffering” you mean!?!?

1041 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:07:29am

re: #1037 imokyrok

Thats pretty much what I expected to hear. Wingers never show compassion however extreme the suffering.

I am no wingnut, sir, nor am I devoid of compassion. I give to disaster relief charities, and I help others in need as often as I can. But those civilians killed in Gaza are the victims of the hate Hamas has for Israel.

1042 Li'l Mamzer  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:10:25am

re: #1036 cliffster

imokyrok hesok shesok wrallok let’s have a party

Well there’s your moral relativism - it’s in the name, too……… :)

1043 Li'l Mamzer  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:12:26am

re: #1035 charles_martel

Terror cell was in control of ship:

[Link: www.debka.com…]

The IHH connection has been verified on the Jerusalem Post. There is a video of the Deputy FM here:

[Link: www.jpost.com…]

Consider the source - Jew Zionist propaganda.

/sarc

1044 cliffster  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:12:56am

re: #1042 Li’l Mamzer

ha, good one. just another case of contrarianism being confused with intellectualism

1045 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:13:36am

re: #1039 sattv4u2

You can play the whataboutery game all you like but it doesn’t change the fact that humanitarians died at the hand of Israelis trying to bring aid to a population that has been subjected to appalling oppression.

1046 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:17:20am

re: #1043 Li’l Mamzer

Nice to see you recognise it when you see it. Maybe my attempt at broadening your horizons is having an effect.

1047 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:17:35am

re: #1045 imokyrok

You can play the whataboutery game all you like but it doesn’t change the fact that humanitarians died at the hand of Israelis HAMAS trying to bring DENYING aid to a population that has been THEY HAVE subjected to appalling oppression.


ftfy

1048 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:20:39am

re: #1046 imokyrok

Nice to see you recognise it when you see it. Maybe my attempt at broadening your horizons is having an effect.

by “effect” if you mean “blood vessels exploding”, why yes,, you HAVE had an effect

(and the word you’re groping for is AFFECT)
ask.com

1049 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:26:34am

re: #1045 imokyrok

And what of Hamas? What is Israel to do to defend itself from a terrorist movement sworn to its destruction?

1050 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:26:58am

re: #1048 sattv4u2

Nope. Effect is precisely what I meant. affectvseffect.com

1051 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:27:29am

re: #1045 imokyrok

You can play the whataboutery game all you like but it doesn’t change the fact that humanitarians died at the hand of Israelis trying to bring aid to a population that has been subjected to appalling oppression.

The humanitarians seem to have been on the other boats. Why do you suppose the Israelis only fought with the people who tried to kill them?

Because the IDF are humanitarians too.

1052 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:29:04am

re: #1050 imokyrok

Nope. Effect is precisely what I meant. [Link: affectvseffect.com…]

Try reading what you linked too

Typically, when people want to say that one thing has had an impact on another, they will use the verb affect.

You were stating that you had an impact on Li’l Mamzer

1053 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:31:12am

re: #1049 Dark_Falcon

Negotiate. If the Irish can do it so can the middle east. I’m not on this thread to argue on behalf of Hamas or any other government. Just to highlight that there are others viewpoints on the actions of the Israelis against the humanitarians.

1054 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:32:47am

re: #1052 sattv4u2

The grammar police are always so tiresom. A bit like the whataboutery merchants.

Effect is almost always used as a noun. Typically, when people talk about causes, they also talk about effects. An effect is what is created by some cause.

1055 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:32:59am

re: #1052 sattv4u2

Try reading what you linked too

Typically, when people want to say that one thing has had an impact on another, they will use the verb affect.

You were stating that you had an impact on Li’l Mamzer

It pains me to say it, but the troll is right in this case. It said “have an effect”. This is the correct noun when talking about the effect of the verb affect.

1056 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:34:09am

re: #1053 imokyrok

Negotiate. If the Irish can do it so can the middle east. I’m not on this thread to argue on behalf of Hamas or any other government. Just to highlight that there are others viewpoints on the actions of the Israelis against the humanitarians.

Israel has offered many times to negotiate, and Hamas has always refused. Israel also attempted to negotiate with the ships of the flotilla but were rebuffed. They boarded five ships without incident, but were ambushed on the sixth by Islamists seeking ‘martyrdom’.

1057 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:34:23am

re: #1054 imokyrok

The grammar police are always so tiresom. A bit like the whataboutery merchants.

The word you’re groping for is “tiresome”. And someone who things a paragraph is a “phrase” has little room for complaint.

Now go crawl back to Kos and tell them about your adventures here.

1058 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:36:30am

re: #1053 imokyrok

Negotiate. If the Irish can do it so can the middle east. I’m not on this thread to argue on behalf of Hamas or any other government. Just to highlight that there are others viewpoints on the actions of the Israelis against the humanitarians.

LOL ,, where have you been for the last 60 (or so) years

How many times has there been a deal, only at the last minute to have one Pali rep or another back out

See Carter, Jimmy
Clinton, Bill
for the two most egregious examples


Tell you what. Here is ALL that need to be “negotiated

Israel will give land (actually, already has)
The Palis will recognize the State Of Israel

Negotiations are done!

(now ,, which side do you think will agree??)

1059 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:36:42am

re: #1051 Cato the Elder
They didn’t. As well as murdering those who tried to defend themselves and their ship the IDF beat up women on The Challenger who were sitting in peaceful protest on the floor. An eye witness described the events on Irish radio this morning.

1060 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:36:56am

re: #1055 Cato the Elder

It pains me to say it, but the troll is right in this case. It said “have an effect”. This is the correct noun when talking about the effect of the verb affect.

I’ll take your word. Thanks

1061 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:37:50am

re: #1057 Cato the Elder

Or “thinks” even rather than “things”.

1062 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:39:02am

re: #1058 sattv4u2

The Israeli have broken such deals 3 times more often than the opposition.

1063 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:39:48am

re: #1059 imokyrok

They didn’t. As well as murdering those who tried to defend themselves and their ship the IDF beat up women on The Challenger who were sitting in peaceful protest on the floor. An eye witness described the events on Irish radio this morning.

I believe your eyewitness as much as I do that you’re not a fool.

The attempted murders were committed against IDF sailors who were legally attempting to inderdict a blockade-running ship. With metal poles, knives, and tossing people overboard. Go fuck yourself with your “humanitarians”.

1064 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:40:44am

re: #1062 imokyrok

The Israeli have broken such deals 3 times more often than the opposition.

The Palis have broken deals ELEVENTY-SEVEN times more often than the opposition

(gee,, this making up shit is kinda fun!!)

1065 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:41:19am

re: #1059 imokyrok

They didn’t. As well as murdering those who tried to defend themselves and their ship the IDF beat up women on The Challenger who were sitting in peaceful protest on the floor. An eye witness described the events on Irish radio this morning.

Link, please. If you want to say that you have a credible witness, post the link.

1066 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:42:12am

re: #1064 sattv4u2

The Palis have broken deals ELEVENTY-SEVEN times more often than the opposition

(gee,, this making up shit is kinda fun!!)

Yep. Poking and prodding the troll before to flounces is a hoot.

1067 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:42:14am

re: #1061 imokyrok

Or “thinks” even rather than “things”.

Your shit-eating terror-excusing affect is obviously having an effect on me.

1068 Sacred Plants  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:43:39am

It it is allowed stuff then it is unnecessary, and if it is not allowed then it is forbidden. Hmm. When it looks like a double-bind, walks like a double-bind, and quacks like a double-bind….

1069 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:43:59am

re: #1063 Cato the Elder

That’s the second “go fuck yourself” I’ve gotten here today. An articulate lot aren’t you.

1070 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:45:22am

re: #1069 imokyrok

That’s the second “go fuck yourself” I’ve gotten here today. An articulate lot aren’t you.

I prefer the Olde English

Goeth and Fucketh Thy Self

There’s still an unanswered question posed to you on #1058

1071 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:47:47am

re: #1069 imokyrok

That’s the second “go fuck yourself” I’ve gotten here today. An articulate lot aren’t you.

Are you still here? I thought I told you to go fuck yourself.

1072 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:48:22am

re: #1071 Cato the Elder

Are you still here? I thought I told you to go fuck yourself.

he did!

Even with the foreplay, it didn’t take long!

1073 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:48:42am

re: #1071 Cato the Elder

Are you still here? I thought I told you to go fuck yourself.

He’s trying to find a dildo small enough to fit inside his ass next to his head.

1074 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:49:03am

re: #1072 sattv4u2

he did!

Even with the foreplay, it didn’t take long!

LMAO!

1075 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:49:48am

re: #1065 Dark_Falcon

Sure. Check out Shane Dillon

rte.ie

news.sky.com

1076 imokyrok  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:51:28am

re: #1074 Dark_Falcon

Is that an example of American intellectual comedy? My 11 year old could do better.

1077 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:52:53am

This is getting tiresome, and affecting my appetite.

Someone call me when the troll is roasted.

1078 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:53:28am

re: #1076 imokyrok

Is that an example of American intellectual comedy? My 11 year old could do better.

The “comedy” is watching you dodge direct questions

#1058 is still on the table

1079 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:54:10am

re: #1069 imokyrok

Here it is again, this time is gospel form:

1080 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 8:55:37am

re: #1075 imokyrok

Sure. Check out Shane Dillon

[Link: www.rte.ie…]

[Link: news.sky.com…]

Would that be the same “Shane Dillon” associated with the Socialist Workers Student Society!?!?!

swp.ie

1081 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 9:02:59am

re: #1080 sattv4u2

Would that be the same “Shane Dillon” associated with the Socialist Workers Student Society!?!?!

[Link: swp.ie…]

Give him some credit; He posted a link from Sky News, not the Guardian. At least the link is non-toxic.

1082 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 9:04:15am

re: #1075 imokyrok

Sure. Check out Shane Dillon

[Link: www.rte.ie…]

[Link: news.sky.com…]

Shane Dillon says the activists put up little resistance when boarded

As Warner Wolfe would say

LETS GO TO THE VIDEOTAPE

1083 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 9:06:03am

I’m out!

1084 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 9:10:01am

re: #1053 imokyrok

Negotiate. If the Irish can do it so can the middle east. I’m not on this thread to argue on behalf of Hamas or any other government. Just to highlight that there are others viewpoints on the actions of the Israelis against the humanitarians.

You say you are not here to argue on behalf of Hamas, yet you continuously mention the innocents in Gaza, and consistently fail to mention the innocents in Israel. That’s just - weird

There’s no doubt in my mind that there suffering on both sides from these hostilties.

But on the one hand, I see Gaza, ripping to shreds the infrastructure left for them, failing to build new infrastructure, continuing to refuse to recognize the Israeli state and acting in a way to undermine and terrorize Israel, and either refusing to negotiate or negotiating in bad faith by refusing to adhere to the requirements of any agreement, but continuing to ask for more more more more, and refusing to allow Jews to live within their borders, forget about including Jews in their government.

On the other hand, I see Israel adhering to their part of various agreements, and responding to the threats from Hamas and the Palestinians to ensure the protection of Israeli citizens, Jewish and Muslim Arab alike with a government that includes representatives from the Muslim Arab Isreali population.

You have your cause and effect ass-backwards. Israel is not the aggressor in these hostilities, but is defending itself from the aggression of Hamas and the Palestinians.

1085 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 9:12:51am

re: #1075 imokyrok

Sure. Check out Shane Dillon

[Link: www.rte.ie…]

[Link: news.sky.com…]

OK, I did watch the video on Sky News. I remain unpersuaded. The activist in question spoke of “hundreds of Israeli Zodiacs” seeing Israeli subs (which is vanishingly unlikely, since subs are the wrong weapon for a situation like this) and heavy Israeli weapons fire. Had the Israelis really opened heavy and sustained fire, the death toll would have been far higher. The Israeli Micro-Galil, Mini-Uzi, and Tavor are all full auto weapons. They would been the things used had their been heavy firing and they would have done far more damage.

1086 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 9:13:44am

re: #1011 imokyrok

Get off my website, you asshole.

1087 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 9:17:55am

The line between criticizing Israel and antisemitism has apparently grown vanishingly thin in Europe.

1088 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 9:17:56am

re: #1086 Charles

Get off my website, you asshole.

That’s that with that. But Charles, it might be time to close registration again for little bit. Right now, it seems to be attracting Israel-haters of vile sort. It’s your blog, this is just a suggestion.

1089 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 9:23:40am

re: #1087 Charles

The line between criticizing Israel and antisemitism has apparently grown vanishingly thin in Europe.

This one was from Europe? How surprising.

1090 What, me worry?  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 10:21:19am

re: #1086 Charles

Get off my website, you asshole.

Oh thank you. I was aggravated all morning over that one.

1091 sffilk  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 10:43:38am

Why should something as minor as the truth stop people from lying about the flotilla?

1092 Sacred Plants  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 11:18:38am

re: #1053 imokyrok

Negotiate. If the Irish can do it so can the middle east.

If you tell them to work off their abuse scandals.

1093 captdiggs  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 5:07:45pm

re: #1053 imokyrok

Negotiate. If the Irish can do it so can the middle east. I’m not on this thread to argue on behalf of Hamas or any other government. Just to highlight that there are others viewpoints on the actions of the Israelis against the humanitarians.

Oh yes… the humanitarians with clubs, knives, chains, stun grenades, broken bottles, etc., who stab Israeli soldiers in the back.

And by the way, the Irish comparison doesn’t work.
The IRA never stated that their goal was the eradication of Britain.


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