Pro-Palestinian ‘Peace Activists’ Tried to Take Hostages

Middle East • Views: 5,853

Now the truth is coming out about the Mavi Marmara incident.

Apparently, the first four Israeli marines who rappelled onto the ship were savagely beaten and overwhelmed. You can see this taking place in the video released by the IDF.

And then, the “peace activists” dragged these four injured soldiers belowdecks and tried to make them hostages.

At which point, the rest of the Israeli forces decided to end the incident with live fire.

And this report doesn’t come from the Israeli government.

It comes from an Al Jazeera cameraman who was aboard the ship.

BEIRUT, June 3 (Reuters) - Activists on a Gaza-bound Turkish ship seized four Israeli marines before other commandos stormed aboard using live ammunition, a Lebanese cameraman said in an account on Thursday that echoed elements of Israeli testimony.

There were sharp differences in the versions of Monday’s events at sea on the cruise liner Mavi Marmara. Witnesses freed after three days incommunicado in Israel accused troops of war crimes; Israel held to its line that they fired in self-defence.

But the account from Andre Abu Khalil, a cameraman for Al Jazeera TV, echoed other testimony, from both sides, that after an initial landing by a small group of commandos armed with anti-riot weapons was overpowered by activists wielding sticks, a second wave of marines stormed in, killing those in their way. …

Abu Khalil told Reuters by telephone from the southern Lebanese village of Marjayoun: “There were four Israeli soldiers brought to the lowest deck. They had fracture wounds.”

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711 comments
1 darthstar  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:49:28pm

Well, that was stupid of them.

2 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:49:31pm

At this point there is no reason for anyone to continue to support and act as an apologist for these ‘peace activists’.

3 researchok  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:50:56pm

It is probably safe to describe the witnesses as ‘former Al Jazeera cameraman’.

4 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:50:57pm

re: #1 darthstar

You have to wonder what went through their minds…

“Well we got that ones, and even though they know what we just did, there’s no way in hell they’ll come back in with overwhelming, deadly force!”

5 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:51:26pm

Screw Hamas and these ‘peace activist’ terrorists!

There, I said it.

6 jordash1212  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:51:27pm

No surprise here. And now they’ve been caught saying anti-Semitic slogans like “Go back to Auschwitz.” The skins of a very nasty onion keep shedding.

7 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:52:30pm

9 dead rubes….not real smart, they blew their big chance

8 darthstar  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:52:37pm

re: #4 windsagio

You have to wonder what went through their minds…

“Well we got that ones, and even though they know what we just did, there’s no way in hell they’ll come back in with overwhelming, deadly force!”

Exactly.

9 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:53:13pm

Al Jazeera just made my list of investible companies.

10 AemJeff  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:54:25pm

Meh. The activists were under assault, weren’t they? In different circumstances I think you’d be applauding the unarmed civilians who attempted (bravely, don’t you think?) to fend off such a commando assault. I don’t think you’re applying a fair standard here, at all.

11 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:54:28pm

re: #9 Cato the Elder

Al J has actually been really good for the last 4-5 years. They’ve really grown as a (or if you prefer, into a) legitimate news organization.

12 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:55:08pm

re: #10 AemJeff

The stupid, it burns!

13 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:55:18pm

What were they thinking? Did they have this fantasy of capturing the entire IDF crew, running the blockade through to Gaza and handing over their prisoners to Hamas as trophies, to join Gilad Shalt?

14 Gus  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:55:20pm

Most of the evidence is in. The 24 hour rule expired days ago. A judgment can be made with empirical certainty…

These were not “peace activists.”

Of course most of us knew this all along.

15 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:55:51pm

re: #10 AemJeff

Run, run while you can!

(seriously, they’re gonna hit you soooo hard!)

16 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:55:57pm

[Link: www.cnn.com…]

In one month, the forensic report will be submitted to an Istanbul prosecutor’s office. There have already been petitions from families of Turkish activists this week, submitted to state prosecutors to sue the government of Israel on charges of murder.

[Link: www.cnn.com…]

what ever happened to self defense?….no such think in Turkey I guess….those assholes are a major disappointment with this Keystone Kop gig

17 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:56:04pm

re: #10 AemJeff

Go Away Gordon.

18 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:56:35pm

re: #14 Gus 802

I will say, the other 5 boats surrendered peacefully.

19 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:56:53pm

re: #18 windsagio

Oh wait, I forgot that that was actually an evil palestinian plot to put them off their guard!

20 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:57:10pm

Well Lizards It’s been an interesting day, but I have a 0200 shift for the next next month starting tomorrow morning and need to get some sleep.

May you all have fair winds and a following sea.

L8R.

Save me some of SoSo as I will be hungry when I get back home.

21 Gus  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:57:11pm

re: #18 windsagio

I will say, the other 5 boats surrendered peacefully.

That’s nice. The other boats aren’t the issue though.

22 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:57:11pm

re: #17 Dark_Falcon

Go Away Gordon.

fuck off…let him speak
you’re tolerated

23 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:57:35pm

re: #15 windsagio

Run, run while you can!

(seriously, they’re gonna hit you sooo hard!)

And with good reason as well. Dude thinks he’s entitled to his own ‘facts’. Real facts will soon descend upon him with the might of an avalanche.

24 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:58:08pm

re: #10 AemJeff

cool. by that standard, you stand still and i’ll beat you senseless with a pipe, and then i’ll tell everyone that you assaulted me because you’re wearing a certain color of uniform.

close your eyes…this is going to sting a little…

25 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:58:15pm

re: #21 Gus 802

Well I think its important.

That boat had some violent (and stupid) nutjobs on it, but using it to smear the whole flotilla as being full of violent, stupid nutjobs would be wrong.

26 jordash1212  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:58:22pm

re: #10 AemJeff

Maybe you’re right. Or were they taking a play from the Hamas handbook and trying to get Gilad Shalit some company?

27 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:58:31pm

re: #10 AemJeff

Looks like there is going to be plenty of left overs…………

remember, I prefer well done.

28 AemJeff  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:58:47pm

Behemoth, try an argument. Trying to demonize the schmucks on that ship as something other than hapless civilians is simple intellectual dishonesty.

29 philosophus invidius  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:58:57pm

Also the cameraman admits in the video that “we” had knives and slingshots. That is, he was not an impartial observer, but considered himself one of the participants.

30 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:59:10pm

re: #18 windsagio

I will say, the other 5 boats surrendered peacefully.

it’s worth mentioning often, because it also proves that the IDF was not there to fight anyone who wasn’t already attempting to beat the piss out of them.

31 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 2:59:29pm

re: #23 Slumbering Behemoth

not disputing that point, …(reads)

Oh wait, he’s not new… for some reason thought he was.

I just don’t like new people to step in it and have their whole lgf experience be shattered/ruined because of a bad start.

32 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:00:01pm

re: #30 Aceofwhat?

It really does go both ways, yes :D

33 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:00:08pm

re: #18 windsagio

I will say, the other 5 boats surrendered peacefully.

True. I think I can answer that by saying that the people on those boats are personally non-violent, but they were willing to help out in an enterprise whose ultimate intend was to aid some very violent people. That makes the next question: “What do they Believe?”

34 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:00:18pm

re: #10 AemJeff

What weapon was used to assault the ‘activists’ by the commandos?

35 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:00:19pm

re: #28 AemJeff

Behemoth, try an argument. Trying to demonize the schmucks on that ship as something other than hapless civilians is simple intellectual dishonesty.

Just because you attack someone with an inferior weapon doesn’t mean you’re not a thug.

And do civilians brag about their impending martyrdom? Because some of these ‘civilians’ did…

36 Gus  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:00:25pm

re: #25 windsagio

Well I think its important.

That boat had some violent (and stupid) nutjobs on it, but using it to smear the whole flotilla as being full of violent, stupid nutjobs would be wrong.

I’m not talking about the other boats. I, we, are focusing on the Mavi Marmara incident. The other boats are not on trial here.

37 joo-liz  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:00:47pm

This is corroborated by the soldiers’ accounts in Ha’aretz and JPost that I posted earlier.

I don’t have time now, but if somebody wants to go through the last couple threads and repost them for me, I’d be VERY much obliged!

Thanks

38 HoosierHoops  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:00:56pm

re: #28 AemJeff

Behemoth, try an argument. Trying to demonize the schmucks on that ship as something other than hapless civilians is simple intellectual dishonesty.

Excuse me?

39 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:01:01pm

There was a quote on the overnight thread from an idiot HuffPo commenter who whinged about the five bullets in the American citizen who was killed by the Israeli forces.

As if being an American gives you special immunity from being shot during a military operation that began with paintball guns and then went to deadly force after the IDF soldiers were in danger of losing their lives.

Tell that to Adam Gadahn (may he soon eat dirt).

Primer on deadly force for those who know nothing about guns and their proper use:

If you threaten my life, I have the means to stop you.

If I’m forced to that conclusion, I will not shoot you once, then wait to see if you come at me again.

The rule is: two shots to the chest and one to the head. More to follow if you’re a peace zombie. I can tap off three shots in under two seconds.

Five shots to one terrorist is nothing.

Oh, and if you push me to that point, I’m not stopping to ask for your passport.

40 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:01:04pm

re: #22 albusteve

Calm down, Steve.

41 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:01:07pm

re: #5 Slumbering Behemoth

Screw Hamas and these ‘peace activist’ terrorists!

There, I said it.

I would be more happy with deep six. They just went from terrorist supporters to terrorists.

So does anyone here really want to argue with a statement that:

“Given the terrorist hostage taking attempts of the last violent blockade runner in support of a genocidal regime, all future blockade runners will risk capture or destruction.”

42 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:02:03pm

re: #36 Gus 802

Well just chalk me up as making sure then.

The generalization of the incident from what happened on the Mavi to the whole flotilla is certainly happening, and needs to be combated.

43 brookly red  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:02:08pm

As I said yesterday I nominate them for a Darwin Award…

44 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:02:13pm

re: #13 Alouette

What were they thinking? Did they have this fantasy of capturing the entire IDF crew, running the blockade through to Gaza and handing over their prisoners to Hamas as trophies, to join Gilad Shalt?

Clearly. Pity more were not shot.

45 AemJeff  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:02:45pm

Jeebus. Commandos come slithering down ropes out of a copter. Personally I be scared to death. But, I’m seriously not going to accuse people who are trying to defend themselves from such an assault of being the aggressors.

That’s regardless of what anybody thinks about the purpose of that flotilla.

46 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:03:07pm

re: #40 Obdicut

He’s just lookin’ for someone to get riled, that’s all.

47 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:03:15pm

re: #28 AemJeff

Behemoth, try an argument. Trying to demonize the schmucks on that ship as something other than hapless civilians is simple intellectual dishonesty.

Hapless victims don’t put on body armor, gas masks, and start dismantling their ship for weapons before the first Israeli gets within spitting distance of the ship.

48 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:03:16pm

re: #28 AemJeff

Behemoth, try an argument. Trying to demonize the schmucks on that ship as something other than hapless civilians is simple intellectual dishonesty.

I’ve already done argued with idiots like you enough for the last 24 hours. I’m gonna go grill a Tri-Tip.

I suggest you get the facts straight on this incident first before opening your idiot blow hole and spewing stupid all over this place.

49 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:03:21pm

re: #44 LudwigVanQuixote

Wishing others death, lame.

50 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:04:05pm

It’s a trap!

51 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:04:10pm

re: #40 Obdicut

Calm down, Steve.

same old shit…I get tired of it
Charles runs this site, not the commenters

52 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:04:14pm

re: #45 AemJeff

Jeebus. Commandos come slithering down ropes out of a copter. Personally I be scared to death. But, I’m seriously not going to accuse people who are trying to defend themselves from such an assault of being the aggressors.

That’s regardless of what anybody thinks about the purpose of that flotilla.

If the IDF was there to hurt people, people would have been hurt on all of the ships.

Jeebus, indeed.

53 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:04:17pm

re: #45 AemJeff

What was the weapons they used to ‘assault’ the activists?

Giving you a chance to defend your strange position.

Can you?

54 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:04:29pm

re: #28 AemJeff

They armed themselves in advance, then executed an ambush of the commandos, even after it had been made clear that the Israelis were not acting with ill intent. The men who died were Islamists who sought Jihad and ‘Martyrdom’.

55 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:04:37pm

re: #45 AemJeff

Jeebus. Commandos come slithering down ropes out of a copter. Personally I be scared to death. But, I’m seriously not going to accuse people who are trying to defend themselves from such an assault of being the aggressors.

That’s regardless of what anybody thinks about the purpose of that flotilla.

So if you are doing something illegal, and the police come to stop you and detain you, you think it is ok to beat them up with metal pipes to the point of breaking bones and attempting to hold them hostage from other police?

I simply do not have the patience for this kind of stupid.

I will cut to the chase. Go fuck yourself.

56 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:04:48pm

re: #28 AemJeff

Behemoth, try an argument. Trying to demonize the schmucks on that ship as something other than hapless civilians is simple intellectual dishonesty.

Talk about intellectual dishonesty.

57 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:04:52pm

re: #28 AemJeff

Behemoth, try an argument. Trying to demonize the schmucks on that ship as something other than hapless civilians is simple intellectual dishonesty.

Did you see this?

Did you see this?

Did you see this?

58 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:04:54pm

re: #51 albusteve

And not you.

59 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:05:28pm

re: #10 AemJeff

Meh. The activists were under assault, weren’t they? In different circumstances I think you’d be applauding the unarmed civilians who attempted (bravely, don’t you think?) to fend off such a commando assault. I don’t think you’re applying a fair standard here, at all.

Allow me to repeat what I wrote yesterday about “activists”:

Nonviolent action means just that.

When I was much, much younger, I took part in such action in a foreign country where I was a student.

It was the 1980s, I lived in Germany, and I was sick of pointless marching demonstrations against what I considered to be the very bad idea of installing Pershing II intermediate-range nuclear missiles in Central Europe.

So instead of attending yet another shuffling demo with signs, groups of us went to “blockade” the Army bases where the missiles were going to be stationed. By sitting down in front of the gates with nothing but our bodies.

We had extensive training beforehand. We learned the history of such nonviolent actions as used by Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. We learned how to go limp so the police would have a harder time dragging us to the paddy wagons. Occasionally our groups would be infiltrated by some stupid young bravos who wanted to bring slingshots and take a more militant stand. We threw them out.

We did not, when the time came, decide that we were being “attacked” by the police and look for stones and sticks in the woods so we could stage a last-ditch act of “self-defense”. The entire point of nonviolent direct action is to show that you are defenseless, but still right. There were journalists there with cameras and we were hauled away under the glare of media scrutiny, booked, and tried in court for obstruction of private property. We went to court and gave our speeches and were sentenced. And the Germans didn’t even think about harming me or kicking me out of the country. Many of them, including many in the legal system, were highly sympathetic.

We did not pump ourselves up with talk of jihad beforehand, or secrete things about our persons that could be used as weapons, or try to teach the police a “lesson”. We were the lesson in what we did.

If the “humanitarians” on board that ship had acted accordingly, I could respect them for that.

I certainly do not respect you for confusing them with nonviolent protesters.

Now, go make salty monkey love to Helen Thomas.

60 HoosierHoops  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:05:43pm

re: #45 AemJeff

Jeebus. Commandos come slithering down ropes out of a copter. Personally I be scared to death. But, I’m seriously not going to accuse people who are trying to defend themselves from such an assault of being the aggressors.

That’s regardless of what anybody thinks about the purpose of that flotilla.

Do you even think anybody slept though a shot over the bow? The sky erupts like thunder.. They knew damn well they were sailing into Harms way…

61 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:05:52pm

re: #41 LudwigVanQuixote

I would be more happy with deep six. They just went from terrorist supporters to terrorists.

So does anyone here really want to argue with a statement that:

“Given the terrorist hostage taking attempts of the last violent blockade runner in support of a genocidal regime, all future blockade runners will risk capture or destruction.”

cool….I was hoping for a succinct statement like that

62 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:06:16pm

re: #49 windsagio

Wishing others death, lame.

I wish all terrorists either repent or die. Not lame at all wind. The second you realize that this is a war and people will get killed no matter how much you wish it were otherwise, it is the second that you can start hoping it is fought well and ended quickly so as to save more lives in the long run.

63 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:06:47pm

re: #50 WindUpBird

It’s a trap!

it’s a trick…get an axe!

64 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:06:48pm

re: #44 LudwigVanQuixote

BTW I took your recommendation and made the chicken breasts in tarragon sauce. It smells delicious!

65 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:07:06pm

re: #58 Obdicut

And not you.

you are correct…point taken
my coolness is returning

66 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:07:07pm

re: #64 Alouette

BTW I took your recommendation and made the chicken breasts in tarragon sauce. It smells delicious!

I saw. I am so glad you like it.

67 brookly red  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:07:20pm

re: #59 Cato the Elder


Now, go make salty monkey love to Helen Thomas.

that is so wrong

68 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:07:27pm

re: #62 LudwigVanQuixote

I just can’t go along with ‘I wish more of them had been shot”.

Probably a religious thing.

69 Tigger2005  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:07:45pm

re: #10 AemJeff

Meh. The activists were under assault, weren’t they? In different circumstances I think you’d be applauding the unarmed civilians who attempted (bravely, don’t you think?) to fend off such a commando assault. I don’t think you’re applying a fair standard here, at all.

Yeah, “In different circumstances” we certainly would. Let’s say, a cruise ship that gets boarded by terrorist “commandos” who plan to kill any Jews or Americans on board (including old men in wheelchairs, see Achille Lauro) and hold everyone else hostage. Yeah, I’d certainly applaud unarmed civilians who battle back against a lot of barbarous thugs like that.

Or the civilian crew of a merchant vessel that battles back against a bunch of Somali pirates. Way to go, guys!

Now, a bunch of “peace” “activists” who plan in advance to use violence and even pray for martyrdom in the event their ship is boarded, who ignore two weeks of warnings to not attempt to break a perfectly legal blockade and land at a different port to unload their cargo, who prepare weapons, attack a boarding party (not an “assault team”) of professional soldiers representing a national government, beat and stab them and attempt to take them hostage?

They asked for it, they got it.

70 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:08:07pm

“Oh crap. Did I say that? What I meant was the injured soldiers were immediately taken downstairs to the doctors quarters for treatment of the wounds they suffered while falling off the ropes they were on. Yes. That is what happened.”
- former al Jazeera cameraman

71 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:08:08pm

re: #45 AemJeff

Jeebus. Commandos come slithering down ropes out of a copter. Personally I be scared to death. But, I’m seriously not going to accuse people who are trying to defend themselves from such an assault of being the aggressors.

That’s regardless of what anybody thinks about the purpose of that flotilla.

They could have done what the people on the other five craft did and nobody would get hurt.

72 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:08:25pm

re: #45 AemJeff

How were they assaulted? Inquiring minds want to know?

73 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:08:49pm

re: #68 windsagio

I just can’t go along with ‘I wish more of them had been shot”.

Probably a religious thing.

there you have it, the hole in your entire argument to promote Hamas

74 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:09:12pm

re: #73 albusteve

there you have it, the hole in your entire argument to promote Hamas

Being an actual real Christian ain’t easy.

75 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:09:13pm

re: #64 Alouette

BTW I took your recommendation and made the chicken breasts in tarragon sauce. It smells delicious!

If you want to dress it up, collect the drippings, add a little margerine, mix in a little flour and cook it lightly for a minute. This is a basic rue. Mix that with some chicken stock, onion or garlic, rosemary, salt and pepper, and use it to thicken the sauce.

76 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:09:33pm

Damn, I think we scared it off.

77 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:09:38pm

re: #73 albusteve

there you have it, the hole in your entire argument to promote Hamas

Oh, i have it the hole in my entire argument to promote hamas.

78 brookly red  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:09:49pm

re: #74 WindUpBird

Being an actual real Christian ain’t easy.

spare us…

79 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:10:11pm

re: #68 windsagio

I just can’t go along with ‘I wish more of them had been shot”.

Probably a religious thing.

Talmud has a very good line about this. We of course respect life and wish to preserve it. However, suppose you have a case where you know for a fact that someone is coming to kill you tomorrow afternoon. The Talmud says, get up early and kill him first.

80 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:10:38pm

re: #78 brookly red

Its funny because WUB isn’t christian.

I still appreciate it tho :)

81 brookly red  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:10:49pm

re: #76 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Damn, I think we scared it off.

no, one thing I know for sure, stupid knows no fear…

82 wrenchwench  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:11:11pm

AemJeff is good for about 65 comments on the topic, and will not be dissuaded. It might be an annual thing for him, I don’t know.

83 AemJeff  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:11:14pm

Ludwig, thanks for the suggestion. Invective really brings out your eyes.

The commandos obviously had firearms. Are you asserting that the people on the boats should have waited until they were under fire before they defended themselves?

(Just for the record - I agree with whoever posted above in regard to the idiots on the boat deserving a Darwin award. I arguing that it makes no sense to pretend as if they were the aggressors, when they were obviously under attack by a better armed, far more formidable force.)

84 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:11:27pm

re: #74 WindUpBird

Being an actual real Christian ain’t easy.

I don’t bother with that stuff, whatever it is….
strength through superior firepower is no joke

85 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:11:31pm

DON’T THESE GUYS KNOW WE’RE AT WAR?!?!?!!

Seriously, don’t harsh a dude because he refrains from HOPING FOR GUYS TO DIE

86 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:11:37pm

re: #51 albusteve

same old shit…I get tired of it
Charles runs this site, not the commenters

Sorry I offended you , Steve. Here’s a peace offering:

Youtube Video

You’ll love Keith Richards’ solo here.

87 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:11:42pm

re: #79 LudwigVanQuixote

There are some severe philosophical differences between the Talmud and the New Testament on that particular point >>

But seroiusly. I’m not saying sometimes deaths aren’t necessary. Hoping death and pain on someone else is a whole different thing, however.

88 Political Atheist  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:11:48pm

Suddenly the deaths & their disproportionate number (in a tactical context) make sense. In searching to rescue captured compatriots, special forces men and even regular soldiers become an unstoppable force. Like an up armored mama grizzly looking for cubs.

I am more convinced than ever the American was in the thick of the attack on the Israeli commandos.

89 researchok  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:11:50pm

re: #45 AemJeff

Jeebus. Commandos come slithering down ropes out of a copter. Personally I be scared to death. But, I’m seriously not going to accuse people who are trying to defend themselves from such an assault of being the aggressors.

That’s regardless of what anybody thinks about the purpose of that flotilla.

I’m impressed. You really are an idiot.

The Israelis came to inspect the cargo after repeated attempts to negotiate that inspection. That does not merit attempted murder in the civilized world.

90 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:12:32pm

re: #79 LudwigVanQuixote

Talmud has a very good line about this. We of course respect life and wish to preserve it. However, suppose you have a case where you know for a fact that someone is coming to kill you tomorrow afternoon. The Talmud says, get up early and kill him first.

“A liberal is a fellow too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel.”

I love that Robert Frost quote…

91 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:12:40pm

re: #84 albusteve

I don’t bother with that stuff, whatever it is…
strength through superior firepower is no joke

Well, sure!

But some people, they actually are Christian. I’m not, but he is.

92 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:13:08pm

re: #83 AemJeff

Ludwig, thanks for the suggestion. Invective really brings out your eyes.

The commandos obviously had firearms. Are you asserting that the people on the boats should have waited until they were under fire before they defended themselves?

(Just for the record - I agree with whoever posted above in regard to the idiots on the boat deserving a Darwin award. I arguing that it makes no sense to pretend as if they were the aggressors, when they were obviously under attack by a better armed, far more formidable force.)

defend themselves from what?….mass extermination?
your premise fucks up your entire argument

93 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:13:16pm

re: #45 AemJeff

Jeebus. Commandos come slithering down ropes out of a copter. Personally I be scared to death. But, I’m seriously not going to accuse people who are trying to defend themselves from such an assault of being the aggressors.

That’s regardless of what anybody thinks about the purpose of that flotilla.

Personally, if I met you in person and you tried that argument on me while resisting legal force, I’d have my dog bite your nuts off.

But that’s just me and my dog. Personally speaking.

94 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:13:29pm

re: #88 Rightwingconspirator

It makes the accounts of headshots and other things make more sense too, to be frank.

Especially with how tightknit these special forces units tend to get.

95 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:13:44pm

re: #87 windsagio

There are some severe philosophical differences between the Talmud and the New Testament on that particular point >>

But seroiusly. I’m not saying sometimes deaths aren’t necessary. Hoping death and pain on someone else is a whole different thing, however.

Well not to make this a New vs. Old Testament thing, we don’t believe in a hell we hope people burn in for eternity.

But you are missing my point. The sharper and quicker the example is set the less likely there is a repeat. As to the terrorists themselves, they are sworn enemies, and I absolutely hope that they die rather than succeed in killing my people.

96 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:13:51pm

re: #86 Dark_Falcon

Sorry I offended you , Steve. Here’s a peace offering:


[Video]You’ll love Keith Richards’ solo here.

forget it….
lemme check this out

97 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:13:55pm

re: #83 AemJeff

Ludwig, thanks for the suggestion. Invective really brings out your eyes.

The commandos obviously had firearms. Are you asserting that the people on the boats should have waited until they were under fire before they defended themselves?

(Just for the record - I agree with whoever posted above in regard to the idiots on the boat deserving a Darwin award. I arguing that it makes no sense to pretend as if they were the aggressors, when they were obviously under attack by a better armed, far more formidable force.)

The commandos had holstered sidearms. They were brandishing paintguns.

So, yes. We are asserting that the people on the boats should have sat down and shut the fuck up, and they would have been fine.

98 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:13:58pm

re: #80 windsagio

Its funny because WUB isn’t christian.

I still appreciate it tho :)

I am irreligious! Not an athiest, very important distinction. Sort of halfway to being a Ben Franklin deist. I believe there’s probably something out there governing the multiverse, but I don’t have any evidence or faith. Just a hunch. :D

99 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:14:21pm

re: #83 AemJeff

Thank you for admitting that you were not correct when you said that the commandos assaulted the activists.

However, next time, you could do it without the incredible ill-grace and immediately making the same accusation again, right after you admit that the accusation is not, in fact, true.

At this point, you’re lying. The commandos didn’t use their firearms until after they were attacked, so they were not used to ‘assault’ the ‘activists’. Yet you continue to insist that the commandos ‘assaulted’ them.

If a cop pulls my car over, I have not been assaulted.

100 Tigger2005  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:14:26pm

re: #28 AemJeff

Behemoth, try an argument. Trying to demonize the schmucks on that ship as something other than hapless civilians is simple intellectual dishonesty.

They knew exactly what they were doing. They knew if they didn’t resist nothing was going to happen to them. Their ship would be taken to Ashdod, unloaded, inspected, and shipped to Gaza. They planned to resist before that ship ever left port. There is VIDEOTAPE of a couple of them declaring how they hope to become martyrs.

But what’s the use? There’s something in the air these days. It attacks the brains of people like yourself, and vaporizes any brain cells that happen to remember anything bad anyone ever did to Jews/Israelis. So it appears to you that the Israelis are blockading Gaza just because they’re big meanies, not because they have any good reasons to be doing so.

101 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:14:45pm

re: #83 AemJeff

Ludwig, thanks for the suggestion. Invective really brings out your eyes.

The commandos obviously had firearms. Are you asserting that the people on the boats should have waited until they were under fire before they defended themselves?

(Just for the record - I agree with whoever posted above in regard to the idiots on the boat deserving a Darwin award. I arguing that it makes no sense to pretend as if they were the aggressors, when they were obviously under attack by a better armed, far more formidable force.)

The Israeli Marines that these savages beat until they fractured bones and then dragged below were armed with paintball guns and their sidearms only. They got greeted with gas bombs, stun grenades, steel pipes, knives, and various other items that don’t just appear out of thin air.

And again, this ignores that the five other ships in the group all surrendered peacefully and didn’t give the radio equivalent of The Bird to the Israelis.

102 Gus  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:14:58pm

re: #42 windsagio

Well just chalk me up as making sure then.

The generalization of the incident from what happened on the Mavi to the whole flotilla is certainly happening, and needs to be combated.

Well, you know we go at 100 words per second sometimes so things might not come out clearly. If we were to be completely accurate one could also assume that there were non-violent people on board the Mavi Marmara.re: #88 Rightwingconspirator

Suddenly the deaths & their disproportionate number (in a tactical context) make sense. In searching to rescue captured compatriots, special forces men and even regular soldiers become an unstoppable force. Like an up armored mama grizzly looking for cubs.

I am more convinced than ever the American was in the thick of the attack on the Israeli commandos.

Who the one with the dual citizenship? No doubt. These type of people are professional liars with huge double standards.

I know it’s fiction but remember the “peace activist” that Forrest Gump knocked out in the movie “Forrest Gump”? It’s something like that only far worse.

103 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:16:36pm

re: #86 Dark_Falcon

ahhh….soothing my inner beast

104 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:16:46pm

Anyone who is still complaining about the evil Joos and how they deserved what they got from those nice peace activists is totally dishonest. There have been numerous posts and discussions here and all over the internet on this.

To insist these peace activists did not have evil intentions from the start is intellectually dishonest. Look at the evidence. Look at who funded and organized this flotilla. Look at how they prepared. Look at how the Israelis tried to accommodate their “humanitarian aid” before the flotilla, and look how they handled it after. Look at how Hamas rejected the aid. Look at what the aid actually consisted of.

Then get back to me.

105 brookly red  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:17:15pm

re: #100 Tigger2005

They knew exactly what they were doing. They knew if they didn’t resist nothing was going to happen to them. Their ship would be taken to Ashdod, unloaded, inspected, and shipped to Gaza. They planned to resist before that ship ever left port. There is VIDEOTAPE of a couple of them declaring how they hope to become martyrs.

But what’s the use? There’s something in the air these days. It attacks the brains of people like yourself, and vaporizes any brain cells that happen to remember anything bad anyone ever did to Jews/Israelis. So it appears to you that the Israelis are blockading Gaza just because they’re big meanies, not because they have any good reasons to be doing so.

Please remember that Egypt, a Muslim nation, is also blockading Gaza … perhaps they know something some folks here don’t.

106 abolitionist  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:17:27pm

re: #45 AemJeff

Jeebus. Commandos come slithering down ropes out of a copter. Personally I be scared to death. But, I’m seriously not going to accuse people who are trying to defend themselves from such an assault of being the aggressors.

That’s regardless of what anybody thinks about the purpose of that flotilla.

How many other boats/ships had already been boarded without incident shortly before this violence?

107 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:17:33pm

re: #91 WindUpBird

Well, sure!

But some people, they actually are Christian. I’m not, but he is.

Christians supporting Hamas?….it takes all kinds I guess

108 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:17:43pm

re: #95 LudwigVanQuixote

Well not to make this a New vs. Old Testament thing, we don’t believe in a hell we hope people burn in for eternity.

But you are missing my point. The sharper and quicker the example is set the less likely there is a repeat. As to the terrorists themselves, they are sworn enemies, and I absolutely hope that they die rather than succeed in killing my people.

Yeah, but strategy and tactics ≠ religion. he gets your point, he just is not confortable with wishing for death.

109 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:17:54pm

re: #36 Gus 802

I’m not talking about the other boats. I, we, are focusing on the Mavi Marmara incident. The other boats are not on trial here.

Exactly.
Check the very first line of Charles’ post:

Now the truth is coming out about the Mavi Marmara incident.

110 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:18:00pm

re: #107 albusteve

Christians supporting Hamas?…it takes all kinds I guess

?

111 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:18:08pm

re: #88 Rightwingconspirator

Suddenly the deaths & their disproportionate number (in a tactical context) make sense. In searching to rescue captured compatriots, special forces men and even regular soldiers become an unstoppable force. Like an up armored mama grizzly looking for cubs.

I am more convinced than ever the American was in the thick of the attack on the Israeli commandos.

And yet, when you consider that the number of wounded outnumbers the number of dead, that tells me the Israelis showed considerable restraint. If they’d wanted everybody on that ship dead, they would be dead.

112 AemJeff  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:18:45pm

Wow, Cato, physical threats! Big man! I thought this site prided itself on the quality of its commenters. You must be the exception.

113 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:19:03pm

re: #95 LudwigVanQuixote

As to the first part, I agree. The point wasn’t who was right but rather that our philosophies differ (you brought it up first tho :p).

If nobody’s taking an emotional interest in their deaths, I think we have no conflict on that point. I do think you’re mistaken in that the more they had killed the worse it would be for Israel.

Its not about scaring people off.

114 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:19:05pm

re: #111 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

And yet, when you consider that the number of wounded outnumbers the number of dead, that tells me the Israelis showed considerable restraint. If they’d wanted everybody on that ship dead, they would be dead.

I don’t think anybody doubts that. Doesn’t mean that killing 9 people is somehow admirable in my book.

115 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:20:15pm

re: #112 AemJeff

Wow, Cato, physical threats! Big man! I thought this site prided itself on the quality of its commenters. You must be the exception.

It’s the internet, big boy. If you want to meet me in person, I’ll buy you a mocha before I gouge your eyes out.

116 Gus  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:20:48pm

re: #112 AemJeff

Oh. You’re that guy that left those comments at True Slant.

117 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:20:50pm

re: #115 Cato the Elder

Lol seriously?

118 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:20:55pm

re: #112 AemJeff

Cato, like most of us here, has little tolerance for willful lack of comprehension. He is simply more graphic in expressing his disdain. you still have yet to explain how the initial actions of Israel could be considered an assault.

119 philosophus invidius  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:21:13pm

re: #83 AemJeff

Ludwig, thanks for the suggestion. Invective really brings out your eyes.

The commandos obviously had firearms. Are you asserting that the people on the boats should have waited until they were under fire before they defended themselves?

When a police officer pulls me over for speeding, what am I supposed to do? Wait for him to shoot me? No way. I beat him over the head with the metal pipes I keep on the passenger seat. I mean: his gun is right there in the holster! I have no choice!

120 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:21:31pm

re: #115 Cato the Elder

It’s the internet, big boy. If you want to meet me in person, I’ll buy you a mocha before I gouge your eyes out.

Lighten up, Francis.

121 Pacificlady  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:21:42pm

Once again, for those who have flat learning curves, when someone says they want to kill you, believe them. All they had to do was allow the Israelis to inspect the cargo, but that wouldn’t serve the purpose of the people on the boat. Oh well.

122 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:21:57pm

Hahaha there’s way too much eyeball trauma talk on this blog today

123 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:22:05pm

re: #93 Cato the Elder

Personally, if I met you in person and you tried that argument on me while resisting legal force, I’d have my dog bite your nuts off.

But that’s just me and my dog. Personally speaking.

I had missed this, Internet Toughguy schtick preserved for the ages.

124 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:22:32pm

re: #118 Dark_Falcon

Cato, like most of us here, has little tolerance for willful lack of comprehension. He is simply more graphic in expressing his disdain. you still have yet to explain how the initial actions of Israel could be considered an assault.

I’m just hoping to string this idiot along long enough to see the “salty monkey love with Helen Thomas” video on YouTube.

125 researchok  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:22:34pm

re: #114 drcordell

I don’t think anybody doubts that. Doesn’t mean that killing 9 people is somehow admirable in my book.

Killing 9 people who want to kill you because you exist and because you will defend yourself from their genocidal intent is very admirable.

For most people, anyway.

126 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:22:41pm

re: #114 drcordell

I don’t think anybody doubts that. Doesn’t mean that killing 9 people is somehow admirable in my book.

Not admirable, but sadly necessary. The Islamists took hostages, and that mandated a prompt armed response.

127 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:22:45pm

re: #108 WindUpBird

Yeah, but strategy and tactics ≠ religion. he gets your point, he just is not confortable with wishing for death.

Do you not wish for the death of Bin Laden? When American troops were fighting someone else, say the Nazis or the Imperial Japanese, it was life or death. There was no way that people would not die. Who do you wish had died?

128 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:22:56pm

re: #116 Gus 802

Oh. You’re that guy that left those comments at True Slant.

really? good. the commenting process over there is…tiresome.

but i’m spoiled.

129 Political Atheist  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:22:56pm

re: #94 windsagio

The very second they came under live fire it went live fire, real bullets.
The very second they saw body armor it went all head shot. The last thing to go through the hostage takers minds were pistol bullets.

130 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:23:04pm

re: #114 drcordell

I don’t think anybody doubts that. Doesn’t mean that killing 9 people is somehow admirable in my book.

they were killers that became dead….admiration has nothing to do with that factoid….what I admire is the shooting of the one Marine who took down six killers….damn fine shooting, probably didn’t even reload

131 researchok  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:23:35pm

re: #126 Dark_Falcon

Not admirable, but sadly necessary. The Islamists took hostages, and that mandated a prompt armed response.

You are far more generous than I.

132 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:23:36pm

re: #124 Cato the Elder

I’m just hoping to string this idiot along long enough to see the “salty monkey love with Helen Thomas” video on YouTube.

Please don’t say that Cato: I’m still digesting a late lunch.

133 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:23:42pm

re: #114 drcordell

I don’t think anybody doubts that. Doesn’t mean that killing 9 people is somehow admirable in my book.

The soldiers responded to deadly force with deadly force in order to secure the safety of their comrades. Again, I find it admirable that they showed the level of restraint they did.

134 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:23:46pm

re: #119 philosophus invidius

When a police officer pulls me over for speeding, what am I supposed to do? Wait for him to shoot me? No way. I beat him over the head with the metal pipes I keep on the passenger seat. I mean: his gun is right there in the holster! I have no choice!

The “peace flotilla activists” are the white supremacist Sovereign Citizens of the high seas!

135 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:23:51pm

Where I come from on the internet, there are A) a whole lot of people who act like me and B) we all tend to agree that physical threats on blogs and forums are silly, because we’re all a bunch of geeks arguing on the internet

INTERNET IS SERIOUS BUSINESS

136 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:23:58pm

re: #129 Rightwingconspirator

It was a thing because they’d initially cliamed that they’d only aimed for the legs, but that MP disagreed with them.

I’m sayin’ I understand why they did it :P

137 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:24:01pm

re: #108 WindUpBird

Yeah, but strategy and tactics ≠ religion. he gets your point, he just is not confortable with wishing for death.

As far as strategy and tactics are concerned, Patton addressed this one rather well. No one won a war by dying for his country. You win wars by making some other bastard die for his.

138 Tigger2005  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:24:03pm

re: #112 AemJeff

Wow, Cato, physical threats! Big man! I thought this site prided itself on the quality of its commenters. You must be the exception.

Anything to avoid actually addressing the arguments being made here. Cato did not make any direct physical threats against you.

You’re quite the loser.

139 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:24:12pm

re: #124 Cato the Elder

I’m just hoping to string this idiot along long enough to see the “salty monkey love with Helen Thomas” video on YouTube.

I just
*wretch*
threw up
*wretch*
all over the place.

140 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:24:19pm

re: #84 albusteve

I don’t bother with that stuff, whatever it is…
strength through superior firepower is no joke

You got that right.

And now I am really out of here.

Night.

141 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:24:35pm

re: #123 windsagio

I had missed this, Internet Toughguy schtick preserved for the ages.

Go pick the cotton candy out of your idealistic ears.

142 Gus  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:24:38pm

re: #128 Aceofwhat?

really? good. the commenting process over there is…tiresome.

but i’m spoiled.

Yep. Was just curious and recognized the name and such.

I never commented at True Slant. I imagine it has a long delay between comments.

143 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:24:43pm

re: #129 Rightwingconspirator

The very second they came under live fire it went live fire, real bullets.
The very second they saw body armor it went all head shot. The last thing to go through the hostage takers minds were pistol bullets.

Exactly. That’s how cops and soldiers are trained: If the enemy is armored, go for head shots.

144 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:24:55pm

re: #114 drcordell

I don’t think anybody doubts that. Doesn’t mean that killing 9 people is somehow admirable in my book.

Darwin works in mysterious ways.

145 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:25:02pm

re: #135 WindUpBird

Serious…business

146 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:25:03pm

re: #133 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

The soldiers responded to deadly force with deadly force in order to secure the safety of their comrades. Again, I find it admirable that they showed the level of restraint they did.

The American who was killed was shot in the head four times.

147 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:25:26pm

Oh god all three cats on my desk stop fucking with my mail cats

148 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:26:33pm

re: #137 LudwigVanQuixote

I read you as taking joy at the prospects of their deaths, that’s what I really was objecting to.

(Well ‘joy’ might be a bit strong, but you know what I mean. It didn’t read as a tacitcal response, but rather an emotional one)

149 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:26:53pm

re: #142 Gus 802

Yep. Was just curious and recognized the name and such.

I never commented at True Slant. I imagine it has a long delay between comments.

that’s the least of the design flaws. i love that it’s an extra publicity outlet for our good friend Charles, but it wasn’t designed for healthy give-and-take.

that’s ok…not every site needs to be comment-oriented.

150 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:26:53pm

re: #28 AemJeff

Behemoth, try an argument. Trying to demonize the schmucks on that ship as something other than hapless civilians is simple intellectual dishonesty.

What a fool you are. They were not “hapless civilians” they ambushed the security team and beat them with metal pipes.

What a soft grape you are.

151 tradewind  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:27:07pm

Well, this just tears it. Forget Iran, here comes Myanmar…../
[Link: www.cbsnews.com…]

152 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:27:13pm

So let’s be really clear, as long as some jihadi hopes to die for Allah in a fight against my people, I realize that he will not be reasoned with or “kumbayahed” out of his earnest desire to kill my people. As such, I am very much in favor of helping him to die for Allah as quickly as possible, without remorse and without pity. The other option is letting him kill my people, and that, I will not condone. He did this to himself and as always, there are consequences for actions.

153 HoosierHoops  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:27:27pm

re: #147 WindUpBird

Oh god all three cats on my desk stop fucking with my mail cats


They work for the Post office?

154 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:27:27pm

re: #146 drcordell

The American who was killed was shot in the head four times.

Let me take a second to mourn.

Done.

155 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:27:28pm

re: #146 drcordell

The American who was killed was shot in the head four times.

now that’s what I call eliminating the threat…after the first three, so what?…what’s your point anyway?….conserve ammo?

156 brookly red  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:27:37pm

re: #146 drcordell

The American who was killed was shot in the head four times.

well I am sure the state department will send a strongly worded letter.

157 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:27:39pm

re: #147 WindUpBird

Oh god all three cats on my desk stop fucking with my mail cats

That’s their job…

158 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:28:00pm

re: #146 drcordell

The American who was killed was shot in the head four times.

And do we know the particulars of how that happened? All I keep hearing is the same thing: “The American got four in the head.” Yeah, and?

159 Gus  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:28:04pm

re: #146 drcordell

The American who was killed was shot in the head four times.

It was foolish of Israel to return the bodies to Turkey. Whatever conclusion that will be drawn will be based on forensic “evidence” from the obviously biased Turkish authorities.

160 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:28:14pm

re: #146 drcordell

The American who was killed was shot in the head four times.

so?

161 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:28:17pm

re: #152 LudwigVanQuixote

The trick is telling the difference, and not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

162 brookly red  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:28:30pm

re: #147 WindUpBird

Oh god all three cats on my desk stop fucking with my mail cats

maybe it is dinner time?

163 tradewind  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:28:47pm

re: #147 WindUpBird

It’s a cat stand-off. Who’s your money on, the cats on your desk, or your mail-cats?

164 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:29:04pm

re: #157 Aceofwhat?

That’s their job…

It so is 8-(

That and stealing corn husks out of the garbage and clawing the mirrors (?!?)

165 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:29:08pm

re: #159 Gus 802

It was foolish of Israel to return the bodies to Turkey. Whatever conclusion that will be drawn will be based on forensic “evidence” from the obviously biased Turkish authorities.

Yeah because Turkey has been such a staunch critic of Israel up until this point in time. They’re certainly not any more inclined to be biased than Israel itself.

166 researchok  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:29:09pm

re: #146 drcordell

The American who was killed was shot in the head four times.

At close range.

When you shoot someone who assaulting and you defend yourself, it is usually at close range.

As for being shot 4 times, perhaps the first three shots were meant to wing the idiot.

As for his being American, why is that relevant?

167 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:29:41pm

re: #163 tradewind

It’s a cat stand-off. Who’s your money on, the cats on your desk, or your mail-cats?

It’s a rumble, I’m going underground

168 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:29:51pm

re: #156 brookly red

well I am sure the state department will send a strongly worded letter.

No they won’t. The fucking British Prime Minister is more upset over the violent death of an American citizen than our own government is.

169 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:30:00pm

re: #165 drcordell

Yeah because Turkey has been such a staunch critic of Israel up until this point in time. They’re certainly not any more inclined to be biased than Israel itself.

why do you suggest that?

170 Political Atheist  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:30:05pm

re: #111 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Quite so. I would bet a good dinner that every dead person was an active participant in the attack. Heck I had the honor of getting some ( a few hours glimpse) of that advanced tactical training in return for helping with newbies and academy cadets. I got a little better from this stuff but what I really learned is how good these teams are, and the people I was with are likely not as sharp as the commandos.

171 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:30:06pm

re: #152 LudwigVanQuixote

Also ludwig, lets throw a hypothetical out there.

What about some guy in malaysia. He really thinks he wants the destruction of Israel, but he’s in a small villiage and will never get to a training camp, or even meet a real terrorist. He still wants your people killed.

Should he die?

172 tradewind  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:30:12pm

re: #152 LudwigVanQuixote
I’d be very happy if I thought you could move the WH into that position.

173 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:30:38pm

re: #112 AemJeff

Wow, Cato, physical threats! Big man! I thought this site prided itself on the quality of its commenters. You must be the exception.

No it was not a threat troll. It was a statement that we don’t tolerate fools gladly, and if you did try the sorts of stuff you are advocating with police, and the police took you out we would be toasting your Darwin award.

It is possible that Cato made reference to your emasculation as a sort of non-lethal Darwin award. Lord knows that you should not burden a future generation with the stupid that your genes may pass.

174 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:30:38pm

re: #166 researchok

At close range.

When you shoot someone who assaulting and you defend yourself, it is usually at close range.

As for being shot 4 times, perhaps the first three shots were meant to wing the idiot.

As for his being American, why is that relevant?

Because I’m an American citizen. And if the military of any other nation besides Israel shot one of our citizens to death our government would at least ask some questions about the incident.

175 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:30:55pm

re: #155 albusteve

now that’s what I call eliminating the threat…after the first three, so what?…what’s your point anyway?…conserve ammo?

In any hostage situation the goal is to completely neutralize the hostage takers. Completely.

176 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:30:56pm

re: #166 researchok

At close range.

When you shoot someone who assaulting and you defend yourself, it is usually at close range.

As for being shot 4 times, perhaps the first three shots were meant to wing the idiot.

As for his being American, why is that relevant?

guy probably had the Star of David tapped into his forehead

177 Political Atheist  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:31:07pm

re: #114 drcordell

It is if it is attackers only, not bystanders.

178 tradewind  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:31:26pm

re: #166 researchok
Makes his position even less defensible, IMO. It’s not as if he were brought up under some oppressive regime.

179 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:31:32pm

re: #146 drcordell

It’s called the Mozambique Drill.

William

180 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:31:45pm

re: #168 drcordell

No they won’t. The fucking British Prime Minister is more upset over the violent death of an American citizen than our own government is.

Perhaps because the man held dual-citizenship and had been living in Turkey since he was six?

181 researchok  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:32:08pm

re: #168 drcordell

No they won’t. The fucking British Prime Minister is more upset over the violent death of an American citizen than our own government is.

Why is being American a special circumstance? He was engaged in violent behavior. You know, like Adam Gadahn.

182 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:32:15pm

re: #174 drcordell

Because I’m an American citizen. And if the military of any other nation besides Israel shot one of our citizens to death our government would at least ask some questions about the incident.

This is true! Upding!

(don’t bother baiting me guys, it’s simple truth)

183 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:32:37pm

re: #171 windsagio

Also ludwig, lets throw a hypothetical out there.

What about some guy in malaysia. He really thinks he wants the destruction of Israel, but he’s in a small villiage and will never get to a training camp, or even meet a real terrorist. He still wants your people killed.

Should he die?

you got that from Dr Suess….brilliant analogy!

184 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:32:42pm

re: #169 albusteve

why do you suggest that?

Why do I suggest that Turkey is just as likely to do a fair autopsy as Israel? Because they both are inherently biased as participants in the situation. Don’t have any reason to believe why either Israel or Turkey would be inherently more biased though.

185 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:32:42pm

re: #181 researchok

Why is being American a special circumstance? He was engaged in violent behavior. You know, like Adam Gadahn.


haha you’re kidding, right? Being an American isn’t a special circumstance to the American government?

186 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:32:53pm

re: #175 Racer X

I suspect it was more the ‘rawr they took our guys hostage’ response.

Just like a recent story in Portland. Some guy shot a cop, so the other police shot him 32 times. Overkill? probably. But he’d shot one of their own, and other things come into play then.

187 brookly red  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:32:55pm

re: #146 drcordell

The American who was killed was shot in the head four times.

only 4… dang he is lucky NYPD didn’t get him.

188 researchok  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:33:08pm

re: #178 tradewind

Makes his position even less defensible, IMO. It’s not as if he were brought up under some oppressive regime.

Ain’t that the truth. He was am armchair or Starbucks jihadi who started to believe his own crap.

189 Li'l Mamzer  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:33:13pm

Helen Thomas Invites Jews Back To Germany

Remember liberal media icon Helen Thomas? Guess what - she’s also a Jew-hating witch. This has to be seen to be believed: “Jews get the hell out of Palestine and go back to Poland and Germany!” - Uh, been there, done that you, bitch.

You mean Auschwitz and Dachau, don’t you. Charming Grand Dame of the White House press corps: Please, just go rot in hell already.

190 tradewind  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:33:34pm

re: #174 drcordell
So when and if Adam Gadahn, American, is finally captured or taken out, do you think State will get its panties in a wad?
Not so much.

191 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:33:49pm

re: #180 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Perhaps because the man held dual-citizenship and had been living in Turkey since he was six?

Doesn’t really matter. An American citizen is an American citizen.

192 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:33:58pm

re: #174 drcordell

Because I’m an American citizen. And if the military of any other nation besides Israel shot one of our citizens to death our government would at least ask some questions about the incident.

nice backpedal….do you assume the feds are not asking questions?….didn’t they inform you?

193 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:34:12pm

re: #114 drcordell

I don’t think anybody doubts that. Doesn’t mean that killing 9 people is somehow admirable in my book.

Of course it is admirable. They had ambushed and severely beaten 4 of the security team, who they either took hostage or took to kill. The rescuers were forced to use force to subdue this vicious mob and rescue the hostages. They deserve medals and praise.

194 Political Atheist  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:34:21pm

re: #136 windsagio

There is this old cop story… Cop confronts armed bank robber on the street. “Drop your weapon” he yells. The robber takes aim at the cop and fires. The cop returns fire striking the robber in the center of his forehead. At the officer involved shooting debrief the cop is challenged on his aim- “Are you not trained to shoot at the chest?” demands the investigator.


“Why yes I am sir, but I had no idea the robber could duck so fast!”

195 researchok  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:34:35pm

re: #174 drcordell

Because I’m an American citizen. And if the military of any other nation besides Israel shot one of our citizens to death our government would at least ask some questions about the incident.

We did ask the questions.

And we got the answers.

196 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:34:47pm

re: #191 drcordell

I’m starting to think people feel defending the actions of a foreign country are more important than the “Inalienable Rights” of American Citizens.

197 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:34:57pm

re: #192 albusteve

nice backpedal…do you assume the feds are not asking questions?…didn’t they inform you?

Some fierce questioning from Harry Reid:

“Israel has pledged to carry out a transparent and thorough investigation of this incident, and I look forward to its findings.”

198 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:34:58pm

re: #139 Racer X

I just
*wretch*
threw up
*wretch*
all over the place.

I believe you mean “retch”. The wretch is the one who does it with Helen.

199 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:35:17pm

re: #194 Rightwingconspirator

I think you and I might have different interpretations of that story :p

Its still a good one!

200 Renaissance_Man  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:35:28pm

re: #151 tradewind

Well, this just tears it. Forget Iran, here comes Myanmar…/
[Link: www.cbsnews.com…]

I panicked.

Massive props to any who get that reference.

201 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:35:28pm

re: #195 researchok

We did ask the questions.

And we got the answers.

Pray tell, exactly what questions did we ask?

202 tradewind  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:35:39pm

re: #191 drcordell
Yeah.
Timothy McVeigh and Sully Sullenberger are ( were, in the former’s case) both American citizens. Not a lot of equivalency there.

203 brookly red  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:36:10pm

re: #196 windsagio

I’m starting to think people feel defending the actions of a foreign country are more important than the “Inalienable Rights” of American Citizens.

well those only exist in America… once you leave it you play by local rules.

204 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:36:24pm

re: #193 Bagua

Of course it is admirable. They had ambushed and severely beaten 4 of the security team, who they either took hostage or took to kill. The rescuers were forced to use force to subdue this vicious mob and rescue the hostages. They deserve medals and praise.

I don’t really think it’s an ambush if the Israelis are the ones boarding their ship.

205 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:36:35pm

OT
I watched Inglorious Basterds for the first time a few days ago. Great fucking movie.

206 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:36:35pm

re: #191 drcordell

Doesn’t really matter. An American citizen is an American citizen.

And an American citizen whose actions get him killed is not something I’m gonna get worked up over. From all appearances, this fellow was an active participant in the events that lead to his death, not an innocent bystander. As stated upthread, he and his fellow corpses are Darwin Award material.

207 Gus  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:36:51pm

re: #165 drcordell

Yeah because Turkey has been such a staunch critic of Israel up until this point in time. They’re certainly not any more inclined to be biased than Israel itself.

I am curious as to why Turkey has decided to make this about face. It’s also very curious that this follows the Erdogan calling sanction against Iran as “arrogant”; that the criticism from the West against Iran are unfair; and that those nations that wish Iran to stop their nuclear aspirations to drop their nuclear programs as well.

The battle lines are being drawn. It is obvious that Turkey has decided to stand beside Iran as their rhetoric has shown.

208 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:37:11pm

re: #174 drcordell

Because I’m an American citizen. And if the military of any other nation besides Israel shot one of our citizens to death our government would at least ask some questions about the incident.

He attacked the Israeli soldiers, so they shot him. Since they had seen that some of their attackers were armored by that point, they shot him in the head. It’s entirely defensible.

209 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:37:22pm

re: #168 drcordell

No they won’t. The fucking British Prime Minister is more upset over the violent death of an American citizen than our own government is.

That is because Cameron is bozo and the UK is not a strong ally of Israel.

210 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:37:23pm

re: #202 tradewind

McVeigh was tried by our own government! There’s a huge difference there. How does Sullenberger fit in tho’?

211 brookly red  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:37:32pm

re: #191 drcordell

Doesn’t really matter. An American citizen is an American citizen.

the guy who tried to blow up times sq. is an American citizen too…

212 abolitionist  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:37:38pm

re: #193 Bagua

Agree, but perhaps not publicity.

213 Political Atheist  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:37:43pm

re: #143 Dark_Falcon

Not just cops. We train civilians to do the same. Bad guys wear armor quite often. Current tactics demand it. A shame really, in the early days we were trained to aim low at the pelvis. This lowers the hands so you have a unobstructed view of the bad guy at close range. It was survivable & effective if you fired. Not anymore.

214 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:37:49pm

re: #196 windsagio

I’m starting to think people feel defending the actions of a foreign country are more important than the “Inalienable Rights” of American Citizens.

hahaha!….your level of ignorance is towering….nobody gives a fuck about that idealistic shit in a fire fight….remind me to abandon you if I ever need some backup….your grovelling now

215 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:37:53pm

re: #206 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

And an American citizen whose actions get him killed is not something I’m gonna get worked up over. From all appearances, this fellow was an active participant in the events that lead to his death, not an innocent bystander. As stated upthread, he and his fellow corpses are Darwin Award material.

Something YOU aren’t going to get worked up over. You are not the United States Government.

216 Tigger2005  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:37:56pm

re: #83 AemJeff

Ludwig, thanks for the suggestion. Invective really brings out your eyes.

The commandos obviously had firearms. Are you asserting that the people on the boats should have waited until they were under fire before they defended themselves?

(Just for the record - I agree with whoever posted above in regard to the idiots on the boat deserving a Darwin award. I arguing that it makes no sense to pretend as if they were the aggressors, when they were obviously under attack by a better armed, far more formidable force.)

The people on the boat would not have come under fire had they sat down, shut up, and allowed themselves to be boarded by a national military force representing a legal blockade. The crews and passengers of the other boats did just that, and did not come under fire.

The videotape clearly demonstrates that the crew and passengers of the boat initiated the aggression. They were not “under attack,” they were being boarded by a national military force representing a legal blockade. They had received numerous warnings to divert, which they ignored. They were warned they would be boarded. They were told not to resist. They knew if they did not resist nothing would happen to them. They chose to resist and possibly become “shahids” because that was their plan all along. There is videotape proving this, as well.

It’s just amazing how brains like yours are capable of twisting themselves into such impenetrable knots of denial.

It’s amazing how you can’t tell the difference between an “assault” and a boarding by a national military force representing a legal blockade.

It’s amazing how you can actually suggest that we compare this incident to other incidents of civilians resisting “assaults,” by which I suppose you mean assaults such as terrorists boarding cruise ships to kill Jews and Americans and take other passengers hostage, or pirates boarding merchant vessels to kill and/or take the crew hostage and steal the cargo, and the passengers/crews resisting. You actually think there’s some equivalence here, that we should APPLAUD this particular set of crew/passengers for “fighting back.”

It’s just amazing. You’re amazing. In a bad way, but still, amazing. I hope you have marked your organ donor card to donate your brain to science after you’ve lived a good, long, amazing life. I’d pay to see it.

217 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:38:18pm

re: #203 brookly red

well those only exist in America… once you leave it you play by local rules.

So that’s why our government totally never pays attention to or helps out any American outside our borders oh wait

218 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:38:24pm

re: #203 brookly red

We look out for our own citizens, that’s the whole point.

219 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:38:51pm

re: #214 albusteve

hahaha!…your level of ignorance is towering…nobody gives a fuck about that idealistic shit in a fire fight…remind me to abandon you if I ever need some backup…your grovelling now

Do you wish that you ever need some backupyour grovelling now?

220 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:38:55pm

re: #171 windsagio

Also ludwig, lets throw a hypothetical out there.

What about some guy in malaysia. He really thinks he wants the destruction of Israel, but he’s in a small villiage and will never get to a training camp, or even meet a real terrorist. He still wants your people killed.

Should he die?

Let’s take this a little further into the ral world and out of the fairytale land you wish it were.

Consider a 19 year old German kid raised on Hitler youth and sent to freeze, suffer horrible privation and die miserably in Stalingrad.

He was likely a good kid at heart. Under circumstances that did not involve him being brainwashed by a life of propaganda, you and I might even like him. He likely loved him family and his nation.

I am perfectly willing to count him as another victim of the Nazis.

However, not killing him means letting the Nazis win. Therefore, however deeply tragic it was, his death was necessary. If you have just discovered that one of the greatest tragedies of war is that it cuts down the innocent as well as the guilty, then understand it, move on and look at the bigger picture. It is a horrible picture, No sane person should ever wish for it. However, if it is thrust upon you, you must fight to win. Winning means killing people who in other circumstances you would not have animus to.

221 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:38:58pm

re: #215 drcordell

Something YOU aren’t going to get worked up over. You are not the United States Government.

You’re right, they work for me. And they don’t seem worked up over it, so why should I be?

222 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:39:00pm

re: #211 brookly red

the guy who tried to blow up times sq. is an American citizen too…

And he wasn’t shot four times in the head. He’s in prison. Are you so thick you can’t see the difference? Really?

223 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:39:50pm

re: #204 drcordell

I don’t really think it’s an ambush if the Israelis are the ones boarding their ship.

As you are an Israel hater who only logs on to attack Israel why would you think anything different?

224 AemJeff  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:40:04pm

Ludwig you’re quick with big-man bullshit (“we don’t suffer fools,” etc…), and you sure like to call people stupid; but you really don’t seem to back it all up with much of substance. If that was a boatload of jihadis instead of a bunch of hippies and Palestinian symps (nothing wrong with being either one of those) (does anybody know of any actual militants on board?) this might have been a different situation. It wasn’t - it was an attack by soldiers on civilians in international waters. You can try to lawyer it all you want to, but that’s not an inaccurate description.

225 researchok  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:40:09pm

re: #201 drcordell

Pray tell, exactly what questions did we ask?

I have no doubt the State Department made inquiries without informing you, hard as that may be to believe.

Further, are you implying that the Israelis singled out this moron because he was an American? Are you implying that this moron was somehow different because he got shot along with 8 others because he was engaged in behavior that was different than theirs?

Lastly, are you implying that Israel is dictating to the White House? Like they care more about this miscreant than they do about bilateral relations?

226 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:40:13pm

re: #221 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

You’re right, they work for me. And they don’t seem worked up over it, so why should I be?

I could give a shit if you’re worked up. I care about the government. And at least expect them to treat the situation as if any other nation had their military shoot one of our citizens in the head 4 times at close range.

227 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:40:52pm

re: #218 windsagio

We look out for our own citizens, that’s the whole point.

bullshit…that is no point at all

228 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:41:16pm

re: #182 WindUpBird

This is true! Upding!

(don’t bother baiting me guys, it’s simple truth)

bullshit. if some american joins the taliban and attacks british special forces in Afghanistan, we’re going to be quite sanguine about it when we find out that they shot him during the commotion.

229 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:41:26pm

re: #208 Dark_Falcon

He attacked the Israeli soldiers, so they shot him. Since they had seen that some of their attackers were armored by that point, they shot him in the head. It’s entirely defensible.

Cordell would prefer to be asked for his passport before anyone shot him, even if he were wielding an axe.

230 researchok  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:41:28pm

re: #226 drcordell

I could give a shit if you’re worked up. I care about the government. And at least expect them to treat the situation as if any other nation had their military shoot one of our citizens in the head 4 times at close range.

Yeah, Obama really has had a tough time pissing on the Israelis.

He chickened out now.

Brilliant.

231 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:41:33pm

re: #223 Bagua

As you are an Israel hater who only logs on to attack Israel why would you think anything different?

Yeah I hate Israel because I don’t agree with their handling of this situation. That makes me HATE Israel. Just like I HATE America because I disagree with the Iraq war.

Gotta love the complexity of modern political discourse. You either SUPPORT EVERYTHING A NATION DOES TO THE DEATH or you wish it death. There’s no in between.

232 tradewind  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:41:35pm

re: #204 drcordell
You run a blockade, you’re a pirate.
Anyone boarding your ship is just enforcing order.

233 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:41:42pm

re: #204 drcordell

I don’t really think it’s an ambush if the Israelis are the ones boarding their ship.

So if the police enter a house and they are attacked with knives and iron pipes it’s not an ambush?

234 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:41:45pm

PIMF because this was too important a thought to be messed up by typos:

Let’s take this a little further into the real world and out of the fairytale land you wish it were.

Consider a 19 year old German kid raised on Hitler youth and endless propaganda from every authority he ever trusted. Picture him sent to freeze, suffer horrible privation and die miserably in Stalingrad.

He was likely a good kid at heart. Under circumstances that did not involve him being brainwashed by a life of propaganda, you and I might even like him. He loved his family and his nation. He earnestly believed he was doing right.

I am perfectly willing to count him as another victim of the Nazis.

However, not killing him means letting the Nazis win. Therefore, however deeply tragic it was, his death was necessary.

If you have just discovered that one of the greatest tragedies of war is that it cuts down the innocent as well as the guilty, then understand it, move on and look at the bigger picture. It is a horrible picture. No sane person should ever wish for it. However, if it is thrust upon you, you must fight to win. Winning means killing people who in other circumstances you would not hold animus towards.

235 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:41:49pm

re: #207 Gus 802

I am curious as to why Turkey has decided to make this about face. It’s also very curious that this follows the Erdogan calling sanction against Iran as “arrogant”; that the criticism from the West against Iran are unfair; and that those nations that wish Iran to stop their nuclear aspirations to drop their nuclear programs as well.

The battle lines are being drawn. It is obvious that Turkey has decided to stand beside Iran as their rhetoric has shown.

Erdogan wants to make Turkey “more Islamic”. Part of that is breaking with Israel, hence the fierce rhetoric. To take what Ludwig has said about the Nazis as a start; This is how such regimes work. There’s a steady escalation of paranoia and rhetoric, followed by ‘provocations’. All of this is designed to justify that action the regime has decided to take.

236 marsl  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:42:03pm

[Link: www.mererhetoric.com…]

237 brookly red  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:42:07pm

re: #217 WindUpBird

So that’s why our government totally never pays attention to or helps out any American outside our borders oh wait

so if you believe our government should help this guy out I am afraid we do not have much to talk about.

238 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:42:17pm

re: #230 researchok

Yeah, Obama really has had a tough time pissing on the Israelis.

He chickened out now.

Brilliant.

Israel needs Obama a hell of a lot more than Obama needs Israel.

239 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:42:24pm

re: #226 drcordell

I could give a shit if you’re worked up. I care about the government. And at least expect them to treat the situation as if any other nation had their military shoot one of our citizens in the head 4 times at close range.

And what response do you think would be appropriate in this situation? Do you have doubts that they’ve made inquiries into the circumstances of the fellow’s expiration?

240 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:42:24pm

re: #222 drcordell

And he wasn’t shot four times in the head. He’s in prison. Are you so thick you can’t see the difference? Really?

He should have got 4 in the head too.

241 marsl  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:42:30pm

ROM: Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs
TO: Free Gaza Freedom Flotilla
RE: Gaza Tourism Guide

Dear Crazy People,

We’ve been given to understand that you intend to stage another media stunt, wherein you’re again going to float some empty ships – they may be full this time, they were mostly empty last time – in the general direction of the Gaza Strip. Your hope is apparently that your cameramen will capture the Israeli reaction and edit it into an overreaction or, failing that, simply reprint your feverish fantasies with slack-jawed credulity. Again.

Our problem isn’t so much that your goal involves obfuscating the millions of tons of food and aid we’ve delivered to Gaza civilians, which allowed Hamas to move money away from infrastructure and into weaponry, which led to more of our cities getting bombarded with rockets and missiles. It’s not even how, knowing that we deliver 15,000 tons of goods every week, your 10,000 tons of concrete isn’t exactly a shining testament to your good intentions. Not when just last week we handed over 810,209 liters of heavy duty diesel fuel, 21 truckloads of milk powder and baby food, 897 tons of cooking gas, 66 truckloads of fruits and vegetables, 51 truckloads of wheat, 27 truckloads of meat, chicken and fish products, 40 truckloads of dairy products, 117 truckloads of animal feed, 36 truckloads of hygiene products, 38 trucks of clothing, 22 trucks of sugar and 4 trucks of medicine and medical equipment. But again: not the issue.

Really what we’re concerned about is that you suck at driving boats. Last time you only had one ship and you still managed to crash it because – of all things – you tried to outmaneuver an Israeli Navy vessel. This time you’re bringing nine boats. While we fully expect our Navy to interdict all of you, a legal and justified act under black letter maritime law, the odds are overwhelming that one of you tools is going to accidentally ground your boat. Given your obvious intention of creating a spectacle and your similarly obvious inability to manage same, it’s pretty much inevitable.

If and when that happens, we’d like you to have at least some sense of how to survive in Gaza City. The alternative is you running across the border – complaining the whole time about our security checkpoints – and that would be awkward for everyone.

So we’ve put together this Gaza Tourism Guide, complete with picture galleries, which we believe to be the most comprehensive ever assembled on the web.

We know that after looking over everything, you’ll be as excited to stay in Gaza as we are to have you there. Feel free to pass this on at your ISM tabling sessions at Evergreen or whatever you people do on college campuses in between advocating genocide. And in the future, if you really want to repeatedly create Gaza media spectacles so you can damage Israel’s reputation, do what everyone else does. Join the UN.

242 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:42:45pm

re: #220 LudwigVanQuixote

The difference here is, in my example, killing the guy won’t make you win. In fact, your example is the opposite of mine. Applying my example to Germany would be the fervent nazi who for whatever reason never actually fought or did anything during or after the war.

Applying your rules to my example would be the person that doesn’t hate Israel but somehow gets roped into attacking it anyways. They’re completely different.

243 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:43:06pm

re: #204 drcordell

I don’t really think it’s an ambush if the Israelis are the ones boarding their ship.

merchant vessels which refuse to acknowledge a blockade get boarded, as per international maritime law cited all over this blog.

i love that someone with so little regard for fact has an avatar that is peeing on our Chief Justice.

don’t ever change it. it works.

244 Political Atheist  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:43:14pm

re: #199 windsagio

I understand. I never want to hurt anyone. We all want star trek stun guns instead of a deadly bullet. Until then I’m glad D_L is as good as I am at defeating a bad guy with a vest while I’m away. I sleep better.

Since I never fired in anger or defense all I have is a decade of training. Thank god no experience. I am sure if I ever shot someone even under the most necessary conditions it would haunt me forever. “If I had only… stayed in bed or turned left or…”

245 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:43:24pm

re: #227 albusteve

bullshit…that is no point at all

You are being a bit negative.

246 marsl  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:43:26pm

Gaza Tourism Guide

[Link: www.mererhetoric.com…]

247 Gus  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:43:30pm

re: #224 AemJeff

Ludwig you’re quick with big-man bullshit (“we don’t suffer fools,” etc…), and you sure like to call people stupid; but you really don’t seem to back it all up with much of substance. If that was a boatload of jihadis instead of a bunch of hippies and Palestinian symps (nothing wrong with being either one of those) (does anybody know of any actual militants on board?) this might have been a different situation. It wasn’t - it was an attack by soldiers on civilians in international waters. You can try to lawyer it all you want to, but that’s not an inaccurate description.

It was an attack on IDF soldiers by Hamas and Fatah fanatics and sympathizers.

248 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:43:46pm

re: #233 Bagua

So if the police enter a house and they are attacked with knives and iron pipes it’s not an ambush?

But we’re not talking about police. We’re talking about commandos helicoptering onto the deck of a ship in international waters.

249 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:44:06pm

re: #237 brookly red

He told me he was gonna go work again >>

250 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:44:19pm

re: #240 Racer X

He should have got 4 in the head too.

Glad to see you believe in the American justice system. Jesus Christ our nation is fucked.

251 AemJeff  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:44:23pm

The commandos were not analogous to the “police.” The boats were in international waters, not under Israeli jurisdiction. Israel’s justification for boarding is at best, disputable.

252 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:44:26pm

re: #245 windsagio

You are being a bit negative.

I’m feasting on your stupidity….you sound like a teen

253 researchok  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:44:27pm

re: #233 Bagua

So if the police enter a house and they are attacked with knives and iron pipes it’s not an ambush?

They were boarding to inspect the cargo. They and others spent weeks negotiating that inspection. They were rebuffed.

They announced they were boarding to inspect the cargo. They got bushwhacked with lead pipes (pesky videos!)

Funny how there was no violence on the other 5 ships.

254 brookly red  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:44:29pm

re: #222 drcordell

And he wasn’t shot four times in the head. He’s in prison. Are you so thick you can’t see the difference? Really?

re: #222 drcordell

And he wasn’t shot four times in the head. He’s in prison. Are you so thick you can’t see the difference? Really?

I am afraid we don’t have much to talk about either… buh by.

255 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:44:31pm

re: #95 LudwigVanQuixote

Well not to make this a New vs. Old Testament thing, we don’t believe in a hell we hope people burn in for eternity.

But you are missing my point. The sharper and quicker the example is set the less likely there is a repeat. As to the terrorists themselves, they are sworn enemies, and I absolutely hope that they die rather than succeed in killing my people.

“All those who show mercy to the cruel will ultimately be cruel to the merciful.”

256 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:44:32pm

re: #196 windsagio

I’m starting to think people feel defending the actions of a foreign country are more important than the “Inalienable Rights” of American Citizens.

There is no “Inalienable Right” to run blockades and beat security forces with steel pipes. Don’t be a nitwit.

257 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:44:42pm

re: #224 AemJeff

it was an attack by soldiers on civilians in international waters. You can try to lawyer it all you want to, but that’s not an inaccurate description.

yes it is, and we have linked to the applicable maritime laws to prove it. your ignorance = our bliss.

258 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:44:50pm

re: #247 Gus 802

It was an attack on IDF soldiers by Hamas and Fatah fanatics and sympathizers.

Yup. Everyone who disagrees with Israel is a fanatic. They’re all crazy.

259 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:45:10pm

re: #244 Rightwingconspirator

We have to differentiate between neccessary deaths in defense of something (which nobody is a big fan of, but you can argue for) and wishing death on someone you don’t like.

The latter is what I object to.

260 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:45:23pm

re: #243 Aceofwhat?

merchant vessels which refuse to acknowledge a blockade get boarded, as per international maritime law cited all over this blog.

i love that someone with so little regard for fact has an avatar that is peeing on our Chief Justice.

don’t ever change it. it works.

Heh.

Justice only works when I like it.

261 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:45:36pm

re: #245 windsagio

You are being a bit negative.

And you, as usual, are venting the air in your head.

262 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:45:52pm

re: #252 albusteve

I’m feasting on your stupidity…you sound like a teen

What resemblance do you see?

263 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:45:55pm

re: #243 Aceofwhat?

merchant vessels which refuse to acknowledge a blockade get boarded, as per international maritime law cited all over this blog.

i love that someone with so little regard for fact has an avatar that is peeing on our Chief Justice.

don’t ever change it. it works.

You act as if it’s settled law that Israel’s blockade of Gaza is legal. Don’t you get it? The entire point of the flotilla was to shed attention onto the illegality of Israel’s blockade. I didn’t think it was that hard to understand.

264 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:45:56pm

re: #251 AemJeff

The commandos were not analogous to the “police.” The boats were in international waters, not under Israeli jurisdiction. Israel’s justification for boarding is at best, disputable.

disputable by what reason or standard?….international law is very clear in this matter

265 marsl  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:46:13pm

re: #258 drcordell

Weel, those who disagree with Israel and want martydom…. yes, I can say they are fanatics. Jihadi type.

266 Gus  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:46:38pm

re: #258 drcordell

Yup. Everyone who disagrees with Israel is a fanatic. They’re all crazy.

Go ahead an ignore the evidence.

Youtube Video
267 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:46:43pm

re: #261 Cato the Elder

And you, as usual, are venting the air in your head.

Oh, i as usual are venting the air in my head.

268 joo-liz  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:46:47pm

re: #251 AemJeff

The commandos were not analogous to the “police.” The boats were in international waters, not under Israeli jurisdiction. Israel’s justification for boarding is at best, disputable.

They don’t have to be in Israeli jurisdiction when their stated claim is to breach an Israeli blockade.

As soon as they leave another nations territorial waters they are fair game.

269 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:46:50pm

re: #261 Cato the Elder

And you, as usual, are venting the air in your head.

OK if I steal that?

270 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:46:57pm

re: #251 AemJeff

The commandos were not analogous to the “police.” The boats were in international waters, not under Israeli jurisdiction. Israel’s justification for boarding is at best, disputable.

Oh bullshit, learn a little law before you spout nonsense here. They were acting in a security operation, just like the USGG and USN not to mention others do on a regular basis.

271 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:46:58pm

re: #222 drcordell

And he wasn’t shot four times in the head. He’s in prison. Are you so thick you can’t see the difference? Really?

if he’d gone at a cop with a knife, he’d have received at least four shots. are you so thick that you can’t see the parallel? really?

272 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:47:02pm

re: #265 marsl

The interesting question is ‘how many of the people on that ship wanted martyrdom’?

273 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:47:16pm

re: #262 windsagio

What resemblance do you see?

Fresh pockmarks.

274 marsl  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:47:28pm

re: #267 windsagio

Fresh oxygen-rich air?

275 webevintage  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:47:37pm

What happens when a ship refuses to let the Coast Guard board and inspect it’s cargo?
Or for that matter refuses to heave to (I think that’s how they say it)?

276 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:47:40pm

re: #273 Cato the Elder

Fresh pockmarks.

Please go on.

277 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:47:43pm

re: #248 drcordell

But we’re not talking about police. We’re talking about commandos helicoptering onto the deck of a ship in international waters.

armed with police-type riot gear.

278 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:48:05pm

re: #255 Alouette

“All those who show mercy to the cruel will ultimately be cruel to the merciful.”

bless you. one of my absolute favorites.

279 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:48:11pm

re: #269 Racer X

OK if I steal that?

Happens under pressure!

280 tradewind  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:48:13pm

re: #238 drcordell

Not so much.
If Obama ’ loses ’ Israel , as in the Democrats lose the Jewish vote in America, he and his agenda are toast. Israel will be there after Obama has left office, unless Iran is permitted to nuke them, and it doesn’t look as if Obama will be much help preventing that.

281 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:48:20pm

re: #275 webevintage

What happens when a ship refuses to let the Coast Guard board and inspect it’s cargo?
Or for that matter refuses to heave to (I think that’s how they say it)?

who cares?…that’s a different problem

282 Political Atheist  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:48:32pm

re: #259 windsagio

Agreed in full with enthusiasm.

283 joo-liz  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:48:36pm

re: #281 albusteve

who cares?…that’s a different problem

How is it a different problem?

284 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:48:46pm

re: #242 windsagio

The difference here is, in my example, killing the guy won’t make you win. In fact, your example is the opposite of mine. Applying my example to Germany would be the fervent nazi who for whatever reason never actually fought or did anything during or after the war.

Applying your rules to my example would be the person that doesn’t hate Israel but somehow gets roped into attacking it anyways. They’re completely different.

That is a moral difference that allows me to feel even more sorry for him when the tactical reality demands his death.

285 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:48:47pm

re: #275 webevintage

Or when, in the past, we had embargoed export of Iraqi oil. That is, I think, rather similar, since it took place far outside US jurisdiction.

286 joo-liz  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:48:55pm

re: #259 windsagio

We have to differentiate between neccessary deaths in defense of something (which nobody is a big fan of, but you can argue for) and wishing death on someone you don’t like.

The latter is what I object to.

Agreeeeeeeeeeeed!

287 Tigger2005  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:48:58pm

re: #222 drcordell

And he wasn’t shot four times in the head. He’s in prison. Are you so thick you can’t see the difference? Really?

Are you so thick you can’t see he didn’t resist arrest? Are you so thick you can’t see that he didn’t beat the shit out of a cop and then try to take him hostage? Are you so thick that you can’t see if he had done that he would be dead?

288 Gus  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:49:02pm

re: #277 reine.de.tout

armed with police-type riot gear.

And paint ball guns.

289 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:49:15pm

re: #282 Rightwingconspirator

Not that I don’t wish for phasors with stun settings too tho’ :D

290 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:49:24pm

re: #264 albusteve

disputable by what reason or standard?…international law is very clear in this matter

Two points. One, since when does Israel give a FUCK about international law? They don’t care what the UN or any other international body tells them with regard to Gaza. Never have.

But now all of a sudden it’s “oh the blockade is in line with international law.” Well which is it? Are they going to follow international law or are they not?

291 Political Atheist  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:49:28pm

re: #263 drcordell

No it was to break a legal blockade with PR and false tears. Their mistake, they got real tears.

292 Tigger2005  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:49:34pm

re: #263 drcordell

You act as if it’s settled law that Israel’s blockade of Gaza is legal. Don’t you get it? The entire point of the flotilla was to shed attention onto the illegality of Israel’s blockade. I didn’t think it was that hard to understand.

It IS settled law that the blockade is legal.

293 marsl  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:49:41pm

re: #272 windsagio

The interesting question is ‘how many of the people on that ship wanted martyrdom’?

enough to force the israeli navy commandos to fight for their lifes.

294 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:49:44pm

re: #287 Tigger2005

Are you so thick you can’t see he didn’t resist arrest? Are you so thick you can’t see that he didn’t beat the shit out of a cop and then try to take him hostage? Are you so thick that you can’t see if he had done that he would be dead?

The American citizen did all of this. And you have confirmation of this… how?

295 tradewind  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:49:49pm

re: #263 drcordell
If we had a seacoast with Mexico that could be blockaded to stop the smuggling of drugs and automatic weapons, don’t you think we’d blockade it?

296 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:49:59pm

re: #104 Racer X

Anyone who is still complaining about the evil Joos and how they deserved what they got from those nice peace activists is totally dishonest. There have been numerous posts and discussions here and all over the internet on this.

To insist these peace activists did not have evil intentions from the start is intellectually dishonest. Look at the evidence. Look at who funded and organized this flotilla. Look at how they prepared. Look at how the Israelis tried to accommodate their “humanitarian aid” before the flotilla, and look how they handled it after. Look at how Hamas rejected the aid. Look at what the aid actually consisted of.

Then get back to me.

If you’re still whining about the Joos, you are dishonest or stupid. Pick one.

*Looks at Jeff and Cordell*

297 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:50:00pm

re: #255 Alouette

“All those who show mercy to the cruel will ultimately be cruel to the merciful.”

Exactly.

I will go further and say that these folks are diong exactly what Amalek did in trying to bleed us to encourage others.

298 brookly red  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:50:27pm

re: #295 tradewind

If we had a seacoast with Mexico that could be blockaded to stop the smuggling of drugs and automatic weapons, don’t you think we’d blockade it?

bad example…

299 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:50:32pm

re: #284 LudwigVanQuixote

Except the whole point if my hypothetical was that there was no tactical necessity!

If there was a person who really really hated Israel, but there was no tactical necessity, or even gain in their deaths, should they be killed?

300 Gus  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:50:50pm

re: #290 drcordell

Two points. One, since when does Israel give a FUCK about international law? They don’t care what the UN or any other international body tells them with regard to Gaza. Never have.

But now all of a sudden it’s “oh the blockade is in line with international law.” Well which is it? Are they going to follow international law or are they not?

Hamas doesn’t recognize Israel.
Hamas has no plans on recognizing Israel.
Hamas is Gaza.
Gaza is Hamas.

301 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:50:51pm

re: #295 tradewind

If we had a seacoast with Mexico that could be blockaded to stop the smuggling of drugs and automatic weapons, don’t you think we’d blockade it?

Not unless we wanted to be at a state of war with Mexico. Do you understand just how severe a blockade is? When you blockade a nation you are declaring war on them.

302 joo-liz  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:51:02pm

re: #290 drcordell

Two points. One, since when does Israel give a FUCK about international law? They don’t care what the UN or any other international body tells them with regard to Gaza. Never have.

But now all of a sudden it’s “oh the blockade is in line with international law.” Well which is it? Are they going to follow international law or are they not?

They do care about international law, they just don’t agree with popularity votes in the UN.

There are a number of legal issues which are disputable based on how you classify the occupation/annexation/siege/conflicts and the responsible parties (are they protected civilians/belligerent groups/non-state terror groups, etc.)

303 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:51:11pm

re: #222 drcordell

And he wasn’t shot four times in the head. He’s in prison. Are you so thick you can’t see the difference? Really?

He wasn’t caught in the act, fool, his bomb failed to explode. If he and 20 of his buddies attacked the police that came to arrest him with steel pipes and knives he would have been shot, perhaps 14 times.

The burst of 4 is standard and takes one pull of the trigger, sounds like good fire control to me.

304 Political Atheist  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:51:18pm

re: #277 reine.de.tout

Heh. Details details.

305 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:51:20pm

re: #296 Racer X

If you’re still whining about the Joos, you are dishonest or stupid. Pick one.

*Looks at Jeff and Cordell*

Who’s whining? Sounds like you.

306 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:51:22pm

re: #283 joo-liz

How is it a different problem?


hypothetical situations don’t really interest me…
in a warzone?
a legal blockade?
met with lethal resistance?

307 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:51:34pm

re: #272 windsagio

The interesting question is ‘how many of the people on that ship wanted martyrdom’?

No, it isn’t.

The nine who got it clearly wanted it. A well-trained soldier does not shoot people who have surrendered.

The interesting question is how a batch of supposed “peace activists” let the jihad-wanting bitches’ bastards into their midst.

Even more interesting is the question of why you continually confuse categories.

Personally, I think it’s because you’re bone-stupid, but you may yet reveal your true agenda.

308 researchok  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:51:36pm

re: #263 drcordell

You act as if it’s settled law that Israel’s blockade of Gaza is legal. Don’t you get it? The entire point of the flotilla was to shed attention onto the illegality of Israel’s blockade. I didn’t think it was that hard to understand.

It is settled law.

309 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:51:47pm

re: #300 Gus 802


Hamas is Gaza.
Gaza is Hamas.

-1 for the last 2, which are utterly false.

Hamas rules Gaza, but they’re not… sigh I guess its this broad brush crap again.

310 What, me worry?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:52:08pm

re: #241 marsl

heheh Terrific!

Hi hi, btw. Good to see you!

311 joo-liz  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:52:15pm

re: #294 drcordell

The American citizen did all of this. And you have confirmation of this… how?

So according to how you imagine things went down, the Israeli’s boarded the ship, were attacked by the mob in the video, fought back, took control, saw a 19 year old kid, and just decided to shoot him for fun?

312 marsl  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:52:25pm

re: #301 drcordell

re: #301 drcordell

Not unless we wanted to be at a state of war with Mexico. Do you understand just how severe a blockade is? When you blockade a nation you are declaring war on them.

Israe is at war with Hamas.

313 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:52:25pm

re: #290 drcordell

Two points. One, since when does Israel give a FUCK about international law? They don’t care what the UN or any other international body tells them with regard to Gaza. Never have.

But now all of a sudden it’s “oh the blockade is in line with international law.” Well which is it? Are they going to follow international law or are they not?

hey, don’t yell at me because your Hamas lovers went down..stay focused

314 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:52:26pm

re: #294 drcordell

The American citizen did all of this. And you have confirmation of this… how?

I’ve got to say, Cordell, it is disappointing. I’ve thought you were much, much more ethical than this.

Why are you insisting that his citizenship matters in the least? Why does what nationality he was matter?

This is just American exceptionalism, and you’re the last person I’d expect to use it.

315 Gus  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:52:30pm

re: #309 windsagio

-1 for the last 2, which are utterly false.

Hamas rules Gaza, but they’re not… sigh I guess its this broad brush crap again.

Have another hit.

316 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:52:57pm

re: #302 joo-liz

They do care about international law, they just don’t agree with popularity votes in the UN.

There are a number of legal issues which are disputable based on how you classify the occupation/annexation/siege/conflicts and the responsible parties (are they protected civilians/belligerent groups/non-state terror groups, etc.)

Israel cares about international law, but not enough to follow it? With regard to the borders of “Palestine”? With regard to the use of white phosphorus against civilians? With regard to the building of the border fence? That’s real keen that Israel cares, but good intentions amount to jack shit.

317 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:52:58pm

re: #307 Cato the Elder

No, it isn’t.

The nine who got it clearly wanted it. A well-trained soldier does not shoot people who have surrendered.

The interesting question is how a batch of supposed “peace activists” let the jihad-wanting bitches’ bastards into their midst.

Even more interesting is the question of why you continually confuse categories.

Personally, I think it’s because you’re bone-stupid, but you may yet reveal your true agenda.

You are being a bit negative

318 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:52:59pm

re: #305 drcordell

Who’s whining? Sounds like you.

Mocking.

I’m mocking.

319 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:53:01pm

re: #287 Tigger2005

Are you so thick you can’t see he didn’t resist arrest? Are you so thick you can’t see that he didn’t beat the shit out of a cop and then try to take him hostage? Are you so thick that you can’t see if he had done that he would be dead?

Cordell is thicker than a newborn black hole.

320 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:53:10pm

re: #258 drcordell

Yup. Everyone who disagrees with Israel is a fanatic. They’re all crazy.

Heck no. The people on the other five ships did not attack the Israelis and none of them were harmed in any way. The Islamists aboard the Mavi Marmara decided to attack the Israeli soldiers and take some of them hostage. People who do that while shouting “Allahu Akbar!” and who had previously talked about their desire for ‘martyrdom’ are fanatics.

321 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:53:12pm

re: #315 Gus 802

Of?

322 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:53:20pm

re: #189 Li’l Mamzer

Helen Thomas Invites Jews Back To Germany

Remember liberal media icon Helen Thomas? Guess what - she’s also a Jew-hating witch. This has to be seen to be believed: “Jews get the hell out of Palestine and go back to Poland and Germany!” - Uh, been there, done that you, bitch.

You mean Auschwitz and Dachau, don’t you. Charming Grand Dame of the White House press corps: Please, just go rot in hell already.

Yeah it is unbelievable. She also seems to forget all those who were kicked out of Arab nations and fled there in 48.

323 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:53:34pm

re: #263 drcordell

You act as if it’s settled law that Israel’s blockade of Gaza is legal. Don’t you get it? The entire point of the flotilla was to shed attention onto the illegality of Israel’s blockade. I didn’t think it was that hard to understand.

The legality refers to how it is enforced. As in, if they’d obeyed Israel’s verbal commands, they’d have been A-OK because Israel was following accepted procedures. Try to keep up.

324 AemJeff  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:54:04pm

re: #264 albusteve

disputable by what reason or standard?…international law is very clear in this matter

The Turks clearly dispute it. I’m open to arguments that the Israelis were within their rights to board (IANAL) but the clash occurred outside Israeli or Gazan waters.

325 Tigger2005  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:54:07pm

re: #290 drcordell

Two points. One, since when does Israel give a FUCK about international law? They don’t care what the UN or any other international body tells them with regard to Gaza. Never have.

But now all of a sudden it’s “oh the blockade is in line with international law.” Well which is it? Are they going to follow international law or are they not?

Israel works like hell to comply with impossible obligations heaped on it by an international body full of thugs and anti-Semitic bigots who hate it and Jews for existing.

Hamas and for that matter the PA ignore their obligations. One of their primary obligations is to eliminate anti-Israeli incitement. They haven’t taken step one toward doing so.

How about backing up the fucking putrid green-glowing vomit belching from your keyboard with a few facts.

326 researchok  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:54:07pm

re: #309 windsagio

-1 for the last 2, which are utterly false.

Hamas rules Gaza, but they’re not… sigh I guess its this broad brush crap again.

Hamas made very clear they were in sync with Hamas. They voted for them in large numbers and it isn’t as if Hamas were shy about what they stood for.

327 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:54:25pm

re: #299 windsagio

Except the whole point if my hypothetical was that there was no tactical necessity!

If there was a person who really really hated Israel, but there was no tactical necessity, or even gain in their deaths, should they be killed?

We disagree on the necessity militarily. I personally want these attempts to stop right away and to remind the world that Israel means business as a deterrent.

IF someone does not need to die then of course we should not kill him.

328 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:54:47pm

re: #303 Bagua

He wasn’t caught in the act, fool, his bomb failed to explode. If he and 20 of his buddies attacked the police that came to arrest him with steel pipes and knives he would have been shot, perhaps 14 times.

The burst of 4 is standard and takes one pull of the trigger, sounds like good fire control to me.

A 4-shot burst takes one pull of the trigger with a handgun? I didn’t think Israeli commandos carried Glock 18’s?

329 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:54:48pm

re: #317 windsagio

You are being a bit negative

You have never even begun to see me being negative.

330 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:54:57pm

re: #326 researchok

Wasn’t it only about 44% of the Gazans that voted for Hamas?

That’s hardly all of them.

331 Political Atheist  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:55:00pm

re: #289 windsagio

I used to argue that cops had too much shooting range time and not enough judo or MMA time. There was a study where women cops were shooting way more often than the big men. Turns out smaller men, and women were less of a deterrent, and got attacked more by those who were resisting arrest. This became an argument to not hire smaller men or women at all. Until-Training and tactics were changed and the disparity went away. Sorry I have lost the report. No linky.

332 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:55:17pm

re: #329 Cato the Elder

You have never even begun to see me being negative.

Oh, i have never even begun to see you being negative.

333 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:55:31pm

re: #224 AemJeff

Ludwig you’re quick with big-man bullshit (“we don’t suffer fools,” etc…), and you sure like to call people stupid; but you really don’t seem to back it all up with much of substance. If that was a boatload of jihadis instead of a bunch of hippies and Palestinian symps (nothing wrong with being either one of those) (does anybody know of any actual militants on board?) this might have been a different situation. It wasn’t - it was an attack by soldiers on civilians in international waters. You can try to lawyer it all you want to, but that’s not an inaccurate description.

After those “civilians” beat the first security team with iron bars, stabbed them and dragged them below decks for who knows what reason.

The Somali Pirates are also civilians, when they attack the military forces that patrol the waters they infest, if they attack the military they get heavy machine gun in response. Yes, in international waters.

What a tool you are.

334 What, me worry?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:55:49pm

re: #272 windsagio

The interesting question is ‘how many of the people on that ship wanted martyrdom’?

All the ones wielding weapons.

335 researchok  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:56:10pm

re: #327 LudwigVanQuixote

We disagree on the necessity militarily. I personally want these attempts to stop right away and to remind the world that Israel means business as a deterrent.

IF someone does not need to die then of course we should not kill him.

Agreed. It must be made clear that Israel will defend her population always and under all circumstances.

There must be always be a cost to those who wish her people harm.

336 Tigger2005  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:56:15pm

re: #324 AemJeff

The Turks clearly dispute it. I’m open to arguments that the Israelis were within their rights to board (IANAL) but the clash occurred outside Israeli or Gazan waters.

The Turks clearly dispute it, by golly! And I’m sure van der Sloot will clearly dispute that he killed that woman.

337 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:56:21pm

re: #331 Rightwingconspirator

Makes perfect sense.

The difficulty of developing working non-lethal weapons is fascinating to me.

I’m prejudiced against the police, but even I admit they’re often caught in catch-22’s.

338 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:56:27pm

re: #322 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah it is unbelievable. She also seems to forget all those who were kicked out of Arab nations and fled there in 48.

Helen Thomas, Cordell, Windsagio, AemJeff, Darthstar, and Olsonist.

There’s a clusterfuck I would pay to see.

Helen would be the last man standing.

339 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:56:36pm

re: #290 drcordell

Two points. One, since when does Israel give a FUCK about international law? They don’t care what the UN or any other international body tells them with regard to Gaza. Never have.

But now all of a sudden it’s “oh the blockade is in line with international law.” Well which is it? Are they going to follow international law or are they not?

if this is the response they get when they follow international law, then i wouldn’t bother with it in the future if i were them.

this is the same UN that puts Iran on the Women’s Rights commission, etc, right? just checking…

340 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:56:37pm

re: #330 windsagio

Wasn’t it only about 44% of the Gazans that voted for Hamas?

That’s hardly all of them.

Don’t let a fact like that prevent you from de-humanizing every last woman and child living in Gaza and the West Bank. It’s easier to simply lump them all together into a single group that thinks exactly alike.

341 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:57:13pm

re: #231 drcordell

Yeah I hate Israel because I don’t agree with their handling of this situation. That makes me HATE Israel. Just like I HATE America because I disagree with the Iraq war.

Gotta love the complexity of modern political discourse. You either SUPPORT EVERYTHING A NATION DOES TO THE DEATH or you wish it death. There’s no in between.

Bullshit, you always show up here to condemn everything Israel does. You are a hater, pure and simple.

342 What, me worry?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:57:17pm

re: #280 tradewind

Not so much.
If Obama ’ loses ’ Israel , as in the Democrats lose the Jewish vote in America, he and his agenda are toast. Israel will be there after Obama has left office, unless Iran is permitted to nuke them, and it doesn’t look as if Obama will be much help preventing that.

Iran knows that if they touch Israel, they become a sheet of glass. God forbid, I have no doubt in my mind that it would happen.

343 darthstar  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:57:29pm

re: #250 drcordell

Glad to see you believe in the American justice system. Jesus Christ our nation is fucked.

It’s just a little blood-lust. For people this far away from Israel, it’s a form of entertainment and fuel for fantasy—the fact that an American got shot in the head four times is really irrelevant (and a little inconvenient)… You just have to let it go. The critics who actually matter in this debate are the ones who actually live in Israel, and those who are dealing directly with both Israel and the Palestinians.

Anything you or I or anyone else on this blog says is just internet rhetoric, and meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

344 joo-liz  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:57:36pm

re: #316 drcordell

Israel cares about international law, but not enough to follow it? With regard to the borders of “Palestine”? With regard to the use of white phosphorus against civilians? With regard to the building of the border fence? That’s real keen that Israel cares, but good intentions amount to jack shit.

None of those things are “obviously” against international law.

There has never been an officially (legally) recognized border of Palestine.

White Phosphorus has dual military purposes, and can legally be used as a smoke-screen and in some other cases.

The border fence is also not *strictly* illegal. There was an ICC Legal advisory, which under the premise of “occupation”, disputed the specific path chosen. That path has been disputed by Israeli courts themselves.

There was an international competition on International Law, in the US. The Israeli delegation won, hands down.

345 marsl  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:57:41pm

Not all cubans wanted soviet nuclear missiles in Cuba. But the US Navy made a blockade, regardless of what most Cubans wanted.

Missiles, out, blockade lifted.
Israel recognized, peace made, blockade lifted.

That’s the rules.

346 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:58:06pm

re: #324 AemJeff

The Turks clearly dispute it. I’m open to arguments that the Israelis were within their rights to board (IANAL) but the clash occurred outside Israeli or Gazan waters.

again, you’re not reading the law. enforcing a blockade may occur as far from the blockaded coast as militarily necessary, as long as it does not occur in another country’s sovereign waters.

so every time you say that it happened in “international waters”, you’re proving that Israel did it right. That’s where you’re supposed to enforce a blockade.

this is why you fail…

347 tradewind  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:58:49pm

re: #298 brookly red
Yeah, it did kinda suck.
But you know what I mean.

348 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:59:22pm

re: #316 drcordell

Israel cares about international law, but not enough to follow it? With regard to the borders of “Palestine”? With regard to the use of white phosphorus against civilians? With regard to the building of the border fence? That’s real keen that Israel cares, but good intentions amount to jack shit.

None of those things are so “obviously” against international law.

There have never been officially recognized, legal borders to “Palestine”.

White Phosphorus has dual use in military campaigns, and is legal in a number of scenarios (including use as a smoke screen).

The border fence is also not strictly illegal. The ICC issued an advisory opinion (using laws stemming from the premise of “occupation” and dismissing legal exceptions for situations of self defence), which disputed the *route* taken, not the wall itself.

Israeli’s are experts in international law, and are very careful to be able to justify each action they do. They wouldn’t blatantly violate anything with no justification just for kicks.

349 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:59:26pm

re: #301 drcordell

Not unless we wanted to be at a state of war with Mexico. Do you understand just how severe a blockade is? When you blockade a nation you are declaring war on them.

Hamas had already declared war and has committed multiple acts of large-scale aggression. Since they did these things and control a port, Israel is justified in blockading said port.

350 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:59:43pm

re: #324 AemJeff

The Turks clearly dispute it. I’m open to arguments that the Israelis were within their rights to board (IANAL) but the clash occurred outside Israeli or Gazan waters.

Which means nothing if the intent is made clear that the ships intend to violate the blockade. Not to mention that Gaza has no waters, as part of the agreement with Israel to turn the land over, they signed away control over their airspace and territorial waters over to Israel.

351 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 3:59:45pm

re: #343 darthstar

It’s just a little blood-lust. For people this far away from Israel, it’s a form of entertainment and fuel for fantasy—

Effing right on! Glad to see someone say it. Its really easy to say that people on the other side of the world should be killing each other.

352 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:00:01pm

re: #338 Cato the Elder

Helen Thomas, Cordell, Windsagio, AemJeff, Darthstar, and Olsonist.

There’s a clusterfuck I would pay to see.

Helen would be the last man standing.

the Ducks of Peace….
Hamas bigots

353 Gus  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:00:12pm

re: #340 drcordell

Don’t let a fact like that prevent you from de-humanizing every last woman and child living in Gaza and the West Bank. It’s easier to simply lump them all together into a single group that thinks exactly alike.

Nice attempt at trying to poison the well. “What about the children!” No one is attempting to de-humanize the children.

354 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:00:14pm

*details on the “peace activists” right this way - - - >

355 researchok  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:00:19pm

re: #290 drcordell

Two points. One, since when does Israel give a FUCK about international law? They don’t care what the UN or any other international body tells them with regard to Gaza. Never have.

But now all of a sudden it’s “oh the blockade is in line with international law.” Well which is it? Are they going to follow international law or are they not?

You need to learn about UN and other international resolutions that are binding and those that are not binding. Series six and series seven. You seem to know little on the matter.

As for the legality of the blockade, YOU brought it.

356 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:00:42pm

re: #349 Dark_Falcon

Hamas had already declared war and has committed multiple acts of large-scale aggression. Since they did these things and control a port, Israel is justified in blockading said port.

So you agree that Israel is still occupying Gaza then?

357 tradewind  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:01:08pm

re: #342 marjoriemoon
Glad you’re confident in that. I’m not, anymore.

358 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:01:13pm

re: #354 Racer X

*details on the “peace activists” right this way - - - >

I still object to people generalizing from these people to the whole flotilla, or beyond that to all the people who object to the Gaza blockade.

Good listen tho’, gotta love the NPR!

359 marsl  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:01:19pm

re: #356 drcordell

A blockade is different from occupation

360 Gus  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:01:32pm

re: #353 Gus 802

Nice attempt at trying to poison the well. “What about the children!” No one is attempting to de-humanize the children.

Interesting footnote to this of course is that Hamas controlled television brainwashes their children to hate Jews and Israel.

But hey, let’s ignore reality because “it’s cool man” and fits the leftist orthodoxy.

361 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:01:39pm

re: #324 AemJeff

The Turks clearly dispute it. I’m open to arguments that the Israelis were within their rights to board (IANAL) but the clash occurred outside Israeli or Gazan waters.

The Turks dispute it because their interest in this whole fiasco has been to delegitimize Israel. That is why they supported the Flotilla, are wringing every ounce of populism they can get out of it, and are marshalling the UN for every statement that they can.

362 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:01:40pm

re: #356 drcordell

Oh no, the O word~!

363 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:02:13pm

re: #356 drcordell

So you agree that Israel is still occupying Gaza then?

Cordell, do go fuck yourself. Don’t use lube either.

364 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:02:18pm

re: #356 drcordell

So you agree that Israel is still occupying Gaza then?

There is a difference between a siege and an occupation.

Most “activists” I’ve debated with who argue Gaza is still under occupation, describe a siege/blockade in order to prove their point.

365 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:02:26pm

re: #351 windsagio

Effing right on! Glad to see someone say it. Its really easy to say that people on the other side of the world should be killing each other.

stick to your video games…that’s reality for you

366 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:03:04pm

re: #358 windsagio

I still object to people generalizing from these people to the whole flotilla, or beyond that to all the people who object to the Gaza blockade.

Good listen tho’, gotta love the NPR!

Yada yada yada.

And I still object to people calling everyone in Arizona racist.

367 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:03:04pm

re: #363 LudwigVanQuixote

Cordell, do go fuck yourself. Don’t use lube either.

Why fuck myself when I can fuck you right in the eye?

368 Li'l Mamzer  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:03:19pm

re: #322 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah it is unbelievable. She also seems to forget all those who were kicked out of Arab nations and fled there in 48.

Is she ignorant of history or just that hateful?

Jews began returning to Israel in numbers 60+ years before Hitler started shoving Jews in ovens. You would think that if Jews were of such interest to her, she would have done the most minimal research and understood that the modern State of Israel is not a product of the Holocaust at all. It was an historic inevitability; the slaughter of Europe’s Jews should remind her of the need for Jews to live in their homeland as a free and sovereign people.

369 darthstar  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:03:25pm

re: #338 Cato the Elder

Helen Thomas, Cordell, Windsagio, AemJeff, Darthstar, and Olsonist.

There’s a clusterfuck I would pay to see.

Helen would be the last man standing.

Funny…I never wished ill upon you.

370 kingkenrod  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:03:30pm

re: #361 Joo-LiZ

The Turks dispute it because their interest in this whole fiasco has been to delegitimize Israel. That is why they supported the Flotilla, are wringing every ounce of populism they can get out of it, and are marshalling the UN for every statement that they can.

I’ll bet Mein Kampf is back on the best-seller list in Turkey.

371 darthstar  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:04:23pm

re: #352 albusteve

the Ducks of Peace…
Hamas bigots

Show me where I supported Hamas, or shut the fuck up.

372 Tigger2005  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:04:31pm

re: #294 drcordell

The American citizen did all of this. And you have confirmation of this… how?

Who? Did all of this what? Confirmation of what? I guess your statement and question make sense in your universe…

373 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:04:37pm

re: #364 Joo-LiZ

There is a difference between a siege and an occupation.

Most “activists” I’ve debated with who argue Gaza is still under occupation, describe a siege/blockade in order to prove their point.

A land that is completely blockaded on both land and sea, while surrounded by walls and a military force that strikes whenever it desires. How exactly is that not “occupied”?

374 marsl  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:04:39pm

re: #370 kingkenrod

I’ll bet Mein Kampf is back on the best-seller list in Turkey.

Fixed.

375 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:05:13pm

re: #369 darthstar

Funny…I never wished ill upon you.

That’s because you’re a peace pussy.

376 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:05:47pm

re: #372 Tigger2005

Who? Did all of this what? Confirmation of what? I guess your statement and question make sense in your universe…

Confirmation that the American who was shot to death was attacking Israeli soldiers. Confirmation that the American who was shot to death was taking part in the dragging of Israeli soldiers below deck to take them hostage. Confirmation that the American who was shot to death was even holding a stick. You have none of this.

377 marsl  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:05:56pm

re: #373 drcordell

because there are only the enemy there. If there are our forces there, then is occupied.

378 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:06:36pm

re: #373 drcordell

A land that is completely blockaded on both land and sea, while surrounded by walls and a military force that strikes whenever it desires. How exactly is that not “occupied”?

Again, you just described a “siege” and a “blockade”.

Occupation implies that Israel has full administrative control over the populace and territory. They no longer do, after the pullout in 2005.

They can’t decide what happens on the street of Gaza City.

There is still a state of conflict between Israel and Hamas — hence the blockade, siege, and periodic fighting.

379 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:06:44pm

re: #376 drcordell

Confirmation that the American who was shot to death was attacking Israeli soldiers. Confirmation that the American who was shot to death was taking part in the dragging of Israeli soldiers below deck to take them hostage. Confirmation that the American who was shot to death was even holding a stick. You have none of this.

And you have…what? Confirmation that he an innocent bystander?

380 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:06:46pm

re: #376 drcordell

Confirmation that the American who was shot to death was attacking Israeli soldiers. Confirmation that the American who was shot to death was taking part in the dragging of Israeli soldiers below deck to take them hostage. Confirmation that the American who was shot to death was even holding a stick. You have none of this.

What confirmation would you accept?

381 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:07:01pm

re: #379 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

And you have…what? Confirmation that he an innocent bystander?

he was an

PIMF

382 tradewind  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:07:05pm

re: #316 drcordell
What borders?
The people who call themselves ’ Palestinians ’ were urged out of Southern Syria, Jordan, part of Lebanon, etc, to rush Israel’s borders, and when the arabs lost, they were never allowed back into their own countries. They already have ’ a state’… several, in fact. They should be allowed the right of return…. to their country of origin.
White Phosphorus/Is that you, Markos?/

383 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:07:06pm

re: #373 drcordell

A land that is completely blockaded on both land and sea, while surrounded by walls and a military force that strikes whenever it desires. How exactly is that not “occupied”?

Because in your bigotry, you fail every single time to remember that Egypt is part of the blockade.

384 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:07:16pm

re: #375 Cato the Elder

That’s because you’re a peace pussy.

man what is going on in this thread, christ

385 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:07:18pm

re: #369 darthstar

Funny…I never wished ill upon you.

why should you?…Cato’s no bigot

386 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:07:28pm

re: #356 drcordell

So you agree that Israel is still occupying Gaza then?

No, sir. To blockade an enemy is not the same thing as occupying them. In this case, what it means is that Israel reserves the right to inspect all cargoes bound for Gaza in order to prevent Hamas from importing weapons or materials usable for military purposes.

387 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:07:34pm

re: #375 Cato the Elder

That’s because you’re a peace pussy.

And you’re even worse! You’re a goddamn chairborne ranger! A fucking internet warrior. Getting your dick hard over war fantasies from the comfort of your living room.

388 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:07:43pm

re: #380 Racer X

What confirmation would you accept?

I’ll answer for you Doc.

None.

389 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:07:53pm

re: #371 darthstar

Show me where I supported Hamas, or shut the fuck up.

It’s getting a little nuts in here, isn’t it

390 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:08:36pm

re: #388 Racer X

I’ll answer for you Doc.

None.

Of course you’d answer for me. Because you don’t have the answer. I’d settle for IDF confirmation that the American was attacking soldiers.

391 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:08:38pm

re: #376 drcordell

Confirmation that the American who was shot to death was attacking Israeli soldiers. Confirmation that the American who was shot to death was taking part in the dragging of Israeli soldiers below deck to take them hostage. Confirmation that the American who was shot to death was even holding a stick. You have none of this.

I asked above — in your head, you really picture Israelis, after getting control of the top deck, just walking around the ship, spotting some 19 year old boy cowering in fear, and opening fire?

If you AREN’T saying that, then what exactly do you think happened? Can you reconcile what the outcome was (9 dead, many wounded), the video, with what you assume the motives were?

392 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:08:47pm

re: #371 darthstar

Show me where I supported Hamas, or shut the fuck up.

you support Hamas, in lieu of the Jews…therefore you hate Jews, by your very own Folsom Standard of Bigotry

393 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:08:49pm

re: #301 drcordell

Not unless we wanted to be at a state of war with Mexico. Do you understand just how severe a blockade is? When you blockade a nation you are declaring war on them.


What are you stupid? There is a war on. Gaza is run by a terrorist group that launches thousands of rockets and mortars at Israel, holds an Israeli hostage, attacks Israeli forces and civilians and is continually gearing up for more war.

Therefore the blockade. Dummy. If Mexico was launching rockets into Houston and mortaring US border patrol, do you think the US would send them flowers in return? Hint: acts of war would follow, and be far more severe than anything Israel does.

394 AemJeff  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:09:07pm

Hell, I ‘ll concede the point on the legality of the boarding, though I’d like to see an objective analysis of that (Dershowitz is a fine lawyer, but he also has a point of view here.) Unarmed civilians (clubs and knives aren’t comparable to guns, it’s not a good point) were assault by commandos at sea - if they choose to defend themselves, that doesn’t change the moral equation. The Israelis may have been within their rights, but there is still no analogy to a domestic police action - and I’m damn sure that at least some of the people arguing that it is would feel differently, based only on the identity of the actors.

395 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:09:16pm

re: #387 drcordell

And you’re even worse! You’re a goddamn chairborne ranger! A fucking internet warrior. Getting your dick hard over war fantasies from the comfort of your living room.

Suck my virtual Beretta, Doc.

396 marsl  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:09:16pm

If this discussion happened in the Wil Wild West, somedody would be fighting a duel right now.

Have a little calm. Everybody.

397 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:09:20pm

re: #352 albusteve

the Ducks of Peace…
Hamas bigots

This.

This is why I try not to weigh in on this stuff, because you guys act like idiots

398 Political Atheist  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:09:30pm

re: #337 windsagio

We used to run these tactical pistol competitions in Ventura county that were so demanding cops and agents and cadets would drive in hours to try their stuff, and get better if they could. Lots stayed to practice with us. I met gung ho jerks, sure. But seriously for the most part these people wanted to protect the public from harm. One of their biggest nightmares admitted over beers was to have a bad shoot or kill an innocent with the car. Kids and toy guns made more than one cop crap his shorts for what could have happened.

399 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:10:24pm

re: #367 drcordell

Why fuck myself when I can fuck you right in the eye?

AND YOU! JESUS!


wow

400 Tigger2005  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:10:25pm

re: #376 drcordell

Confirmation that the American who was shot to death was attacking Israeli soldiers. Confirmation that the American who was shot to death was taking part in the dragging of Israeli soldiers below deck to take them hostage. Confirmation that the American who was shot to death was even holding a stick. You have none of this.

And I suppose YOU have confirmation that he WASN’T doing any of these things?

401 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:10:33pm

re: #394 AemJeff

Hell, I ‘ll concede the point on the legality of the boarding, though I’d like to see an objective analysis of that (Dershowitz is a fine lawyer, but he also has a point of view here.) Unarmed civilians (clubs and knives aren’t comparable to guns, it’s not a good point) were assault by commandos at sea - if they choose to defend themselves, that doesn’t change the moral equation. The Israelis may have been within their rights, but there is still no analogy to a domestic police action - and I’m damn sure that at least some of the people arguing that it is would feel differently, based only on the identity of the actors.

I’m sure that the four Marines who got beat until they had multiple bone fractures would disagree with you that these “activists” were unarmed.

402 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:10:41pm

re: #371 darthstar

Show me where I supported Hamas, or shut the fuck up.

Supporting the “freedom flotilla” is objectively the same as supporting Hamas.

403 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:10:43pm

re: #384 WindUpBird

man what is going on in this thread, christ

people are exposing their bigotry…quite entertaining…
lot of Hamas supporters here….who’d a thought?

404 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:10:57pm

re: #365 albusteve

stick to your video games…that’s reality for you

What about your own video gamesthats reality for i?

405 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:11:11pm

re: #384 WindUpBird

man what is going on in this thread, christ

What’s going on is a handful of anti-Israel bigots are revealing themselves.

406 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:11:25pm

re: #394 AemJeff

Hell, I ‘ll concede the point on the legality of the boarding, though I’d like to see an objective analysis of that (Dershowitz is a fine lawyer, but he also has a point of view here.) Unarmed civilians (clubs and knives aren’t comparable to guns, it’s not a good point) were assault by commandos at sea - if they choose to defend themselves, that doesn’t change the moral equation. The Israelis may have been within their rights, but there is still no analogy to a domestic police action - and I’m damn sure that at least some of the people arguing that it is would feel differently, based only on the identity of the actors.

Two links:
Ed Morgan at the Globe and Mail

REUTERS

407 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:11:29pm

re: #391 Joo-LiZ

I asked above — in your head, you really picture Israelis, after getting control of the top deck, just walking around the ship, spotting some 19 year old boy cowering in fear, and opening fire?

If you AREN’T saying that, then what exactly do you think happened? Can you reconcile what the outcome was (9 dead, many wounded), the video, with what you assume the motives were?

I don’t know what went on during the firefight, because I wasn’t there. I’m simply asking if there is confirmation that the American was armed. Because what I have read stated that he was unarmed.

409 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:11:56pm

re: #224 AemJeff

Ludwig you’re quick with big-man bullshit (“we don’t suffer fools,” etc…), and you sure like to call people stupid; but you really don’t seem to back it all up with much of substance. If that was a boatload of jihadis instead of a bunch of hippies and Palestinian symps (nothing wrong with being either one of those) (does anybody know of any actual militants on board?) this might have been a different situation. It wasn’t - it was an attack by soldiers on civilians in international waters. You can try to lawyer it all you want to, but that’s not an inaccurate description.

Actually, yes it is.

You might want to acquaint yourself with the relevant international law that has been linked to several times in the past few days.

410 AemJeff  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:12:11pm

re: #405 Bagua

Who are you accusing of bigotry?

411 darthstar  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:12:14pm

re: #375 Cato the Elder

That’s because you’re a peace pussy.

You have a point there. But it beats the hell out of the alternative.

412 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:12:15pm

re: #366 Racer X

Never said that :p

I tend to blame the the state government mostly, (and the local governments).

I’m sure there are plenty of Arizonans horrified about what’s happening in their state as well.

413 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:12:41pm

re: #394 AemJeff

Hell, I ‘ll concede the point on the legality of the boarding, though I’d like to see an objective analysis of that (Dershowitz is a fine lawyer, but he also has a point of view here.) Unarmed civilians (clubs and knives aren’t comparable to guns, it’s not a good point) were assault by commandos at sea - if they choose to defend themselves, that doesn’t change the moral equation. The Israelis may have been within their rights, but there is still no analogy to a domestic police action - and I’m damn sure that at least some of the people arguing that it is would feel differently, based only on the identity of the actors.

Lemme phrase the question this way:
Do you think, if the passengers had *NOT* decided to “defend themselves” that the Israelis would have harmed anyone?

414 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:13:08pm

re: #397 WindUpBird

This.

This is why I try not to weigh in on this stuff, because you guys act like idiots

not too many people miss you I doubt

415 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:13:14pm

re: #402 Cato the Elder

Supporting the “freedom flotilla” is objectively the same as supporting Hamas.

To YOU it is. To Cato the Elder, chaireborne ranger private first class. Outside in the rest of the world, that’s not the case.

416 darthstar  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:13:22pm

re: #402 Cato the Elder

Supporting the “freedom flotilla” is objectively the same as supporting Hamas.

Subjectively, not objectively. I won’t take the risk of offending you by calling you a critical thinker.

417 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:13:23pm
Youtube Video
418 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:13:40pm

re: #409 alexknyc

Actually, yes it is.

You might want to acquaint yourself with the relevant international law that has been linked to several times in the past few days.

Jeff doesn’t want facts. They’re terribly inconvenient to his POV…

419 Basho  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:13:43pm
Apparently, the first four Israeli marines who rappelled onto the ship were savagely beaten and overwhelmed. You can see this taking place in the video released by the IDF.

And then, the “peace activists” dragged these four injured soldiers belowdecks and tried to make them hostages.

At which point, the rest of the Israeli forces decided to end the incident with live fire.

You forgot to mention this is Turkey’s 9/11…

420 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:13:52pm

Anarchist that I am, it was time to call the cops on this thread. Now I’m curious to see if it actually works >>

421 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:14:01pm

re: #411 darthstar

You have a point there. But it beats the hell out of the alternative.

No, it doesn’t. Not if your neighbors are coming to blow up your children as they wait for a school bus.

I would defend them. You would try talking sense into zombies.

If you want my number, just ask.

422 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:14:01pm

re: #124Cato the Elder

I’m just hoping to string this idiot along long enough to see the “salty monkey love with Helen Thomas” video on YouTube.

re: #141 Cato the Elder

Go pick the cotton candy out of your idealistic ears.

re: #261 Cato the Elder

And you, as usual, are venting the air in your head.

re: #319 Cato the Elder

Cordell is thicker than a newborn black hole.

Dude. You are on a roll.

423 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:14:12pm

re: #405 Bagua

What’s going on is a handful of anti-Israel bigots are revealing themselves.

Congratulations, sir, you win

424 AemJeff  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:14:34pm

re: #413 Joo-LiZ

Lemme phrase the question this way:
Do you think, if the passengers had *NOT* decided to “defend themselves” that the Israelis would have harmed anyone?

No, I don’t. They were idiots. But that’s not the point I’m trying to make.

425 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:14:35pm

re: #392 albusteve

you support Hamas, in lieu of the Jews…therefore you hate Jews, by your very own Folsom Standard of Bigotry

Oh fucking snap!

426 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:14:36pm

re: #405 Bagua

What’s going on is a handful of anti-Israel bigots are revealing themselves.

Who, aside from AemJeff and Cordell, are you calling an anti-Israel bigot?

Or is two a handful?

427 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:14:45pm

re: #423 WindUpBird

At least shadowbox them, lazy.

428 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:14:50pm

re: #411 darthstar

You have a point there. But it beats the hell out of the alternative.

for you yes, we understand that

429 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:15:17pm

re: #422 Racer X

Dude. You are on a roll.

Must be the beer.

430 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:15:21pm

re: #415 drcordell

To YOU it is. To Cato the Elder, chaireborne ranger private first class. Outside in the rest of the world, that’s not the case.

and me
albu the steve

431 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:15:29pm

Seriously, “Suck on my gun”

IS NEVER FREAKING APPROPRIATE!

I mean WTF, guys?

432 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:15:38pm

re: #424 AemJeff

No, I don’t. They were idiots. But that’s not the point I’m trying to make.

Then what is your point?

433 researchok  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:15:45pm

re: #407 drcordell

I don’t know what went on during the firefight, because I wasn’t there. I’m simply asking if there is confirmation that the American was armed. Because what I have read stated that he was unarmed.

No confirmation. The bastard Israelis made sure to search out Americans so they could shoot them.

All the others were armed, though.

434 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:15:45pm

re: #426 Obdicut

Who, aside from AemJeff and Cordell, are you calling an anti-Israel bigot?

Or is two a handful?

Helen makes three!

435 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:15:47pm

re: #422 Racer X

Dude. You are on a roll.

yes, he’s quite ferocious

436 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:16:19pm

re: #426 Obdicut

Who, aside from AemJeff and Cordell, are you calling an anti-Israel bigot?

Or is two a handful?

I’m pretty sure he’s calling windy a bigot!

437 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:16:19pm

re: #392 albusteve

You failed to show that he supported Hamas.

438 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:16:26pm

re: #402 Cato the Elder

Supporting the “freedom flotilla” is objectively the same as supporting Hamas.

I might add, who do you think the blockade benefits? Have you ever thought to think about who is benefiting from the fact that all goods have to be smuggled into Gaza?

Guess who controls all of the smuggling tunnels! Hamas!

Guess who profits from every single object that flows into Gaza in the smuggling tunnel. Such as the smuggled cocoa puffs mentioned in that washington post article? Hamas!

Don’t you get it? Hamas fucking LOVES the blockade. It makes Israel look bad so they can rile up the Gazans. AND it grants them an almost unlimited license to profit off of smuggled goods! It’s a win win! And you support it!

439 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:16:41pm

re: #224 AemJeff

Ludwig you’re quick with big-man bullshit (“we don’t suffer fools,” etc…), and you sure like to call people stupid; but you really don’t seem to back it all up with much of substance. If that was a boatload of jihadis instead of a bunch of hippies and Palestinian symps (nothing wrong with being either one of those) (does anybody know of any actual militants on board?) this might have been a different situation. It wasn’t - it was an attack by soldiers on civilians in international waters. You can try to lawyer it all you want to, but that’s not an inaccurate description.

You’re being highly sceptical here, so I dunno if you’ll listen to “reason”, or accept this, coming from the Jerusalem Post — and independent, if Israeli — news outlet.

Group of 50 mercenaries responsible for the violence

From the Turkish group IHH, which has been linked to terror groups by different countries. Here is an objective view on the IHH

440 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:17:07pm

re: #410 AemJeff

Who are you accusing of bigotry?

You for one, drcordell for another. It is obvious bigotry.

441 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:17:17pm

re: #243 Aceofwhat?

merchant vessels which refuse to acknowledge a blockade get boarded, as per international maritime law cited all over this blog.

i love that someone with so little regard for fact has an avatar that is peeing on our Chief Justice.

don’t ever change it. it works.

I hadn’t noticed that before.

Stay classy, doc.

442 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:17:18pm

re: #431 windsagio

Seriously, “Suck on my gun”

IS NEVER FREAKING APPROPRIATE!

I mean WTF, guys?


Internet toughness! Scary stuff!

443 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:17:39pm

re: #431 windsagio

Seriously, “Suck on my gun”

IS NEVER FREAKING APPROPRIATE!

I mean WTF, guys?

not so net tough after all?…what about all your bluster from last night?
peace pussy indeed

444 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:17:52pm

This is my rifle,
This is my gun.
One is for shooting,
The other’s for fun.

445 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:17:52pm

re: #442 WindUpBird

You’re tougher than I am, I actually have a limit :p

446 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:17:55pm

re: #438 drcordell

I might add, who do you think the blockade benefits? Have you ever thought to think about who is benefiting from the fact that all goods have to be smuggled into Gaza?

Guess who controls all of the smuggling tunnels! Hamas!

Guess who profits from every single object that flows into Gaza in the smuggling tunnel. Such as the smuggled cocoa puffs mentioned in that washington post article? Hamas!

Don’t you get it? Hamas fucking LOVES the blockade. It makes Israel look bad so they can rile up the Gazans. AND it grants them an almost unlimited license to profit off of smuggled goods! It’s a win win! And you support it!

As Bibi himself has stated — yes the smuggling happens, and yes Hamas is able to get weapons and profit from the smuggling. But that is NOTHING compared to the flow that would rush into Gaza if the blockade were removed.

447 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:17:57pm

re: #440 Bagua

You for one, drcordell for another. It is obvious bigotry.

Obvious bigotry. Against the political actions of a nation. Right.

448 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:18:06pm

re: #426 Obdicut

Who, aside from AemJeff and Cordell, are you calling an anti-Israel bigot?

Or is two a handful?

Those two are quite a handful indeed.

449 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:18:13pm

re: #443 albusteve

not so net tough after all?…what about all your bluster from last night?
peace pussy indeed

What about your own bluster from last night peace pussy indeed?

450 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:18:44pm

re: #375 Cato the Elder

That’s because you’re a peace pussy.

Forgot the funniest one.

451 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:18:44pm

re: #437 Obdicut

You failed to show that he supported Hamas.

I don’t have to…follow the thread

452 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:18:46pm

re: #445 windsagio

You’re tougher than I am, I actually have a limit :p

Not when it comes to being an apologist for the-world-without-Jews.

453 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:19:02pm

re: #448 Bagua

Cordell isn’t really antiIsrael in the way you mean anyways, he just has a short temper. Dealing with radicals tends to radicalize.

454 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:19:13pm

re: #423 WindUpBird

Congratulations, sir, you win

Oh nonsense, you just have no dog in this fight. If we were talking about an issue dear to you history proves you would not be calm and neutral.

455 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:19:26pm

re: #414 albusteve

not too many people miss you I doubt

Of course not!

See, this blog is a fun time for me, but it’s not my primary social group. It’s like a bar! And if I leave this bar…I’ll find another one.

Right now I’m watching you guys and your very serious eyeball gouging and crypto-hamas-supporter talk.

very serious, very mature. A credit to your generation!

456 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:19:27pm

re: #442 WindUpBird

Internet toughness! Scary stuff!

I’d like to remind you that, despite my avatar, i am 6’8” and swelled-up;)

457 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:19:28pm

re: #452 Cato the Elder

Not when it comes to being an apologist for the-world-without-Jews.

Does that question interest you?

458 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:19:37pm

re: #436 WindUpBird

I’m pretty sure he’s calling windy a bigot!

windy is a bigot….what a shame, the future of America

459 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:19:45pm

re: #446 Joo-LiZ

As Bibi himself has stated — yes the smuggling happens, and yes Hamas is able to get weapons and profit from the smuggling. But that is NOTHING compared to the flow that would rush into Gaza if the blockade were removed.

So by all objective measurements, the blockade has failed. It still allows weapons to flow in, and Hamas to profit from smuggling. So… why is it still going on?

460 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:19:50pm

re: #448 Bagua

Those two are quite a handful indeed.

Oh! And he backs away!

461 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:19:52pm

re: #451 albusteve

I don’t have to…follow the thread


Yes, you do. I have followed the threat. At no point has darthstar supported Hamas.

Please show how he has supported Hamas. It is a gigantic accusation to throw around lightly.

462 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:19:55pm

re: #438 drcordell

I might add, who do you think the blockade benefits? Have you ever thought to think about who is benefiting from the fact that all goods have to be smuggled into Gaza?

Guess who controls all of the smuggling tunnels! Hamas!

Guess who profits from every single object that flows into Gaza in the smuggling tunnel. Such as the smuggled cocoa puffs mentioned in that washington post article? Hamas!

Don’t you get it? Hamas fucking LOVES the blockade. It makes Israel look bad so they can rile up the Gazans. AND it grants them an almost unlimited license to profit off of smuggled goods! It’s a win win! And you support it!

Hell yes I support it! It’s better than Hamas getting regular shipments of rockets from Iran, which is the alternative. You rail against the blockade, but I have yet to hear a method form you by which Hamas could be disarmed.

463 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:20:00pm

re: #458 albusteve

windy is a bigot…what a shame, the future of America

lolololololololololololololo

464 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:20:29pm

re: #461 Obdicut

Yes, you do. I have followed the threat. At no point has darthstar supported Hamas.

Please show how he has supported Hamas. It is a gigantic accusation to throw around lightly.

This is the weak-dick bullying Windy talks about.

This is precisely it, right here.

465 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:20:35pm

re: #454 Bagua

See the ‘gays’ argument last night.

He didn’t threaten to beat up anyone, as far as I can remember :D

466 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:20:43pm

re: #447 drcordell

Obvious bigotry. Against the political actions of a nation. Right.

indeed, your support for Hamas iced the deal

467 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:21:00pm

re: #424 AemJeff

No, I don’t. They were idiots. But that’s not the point I’m trying to make.

If they were not going to be touched, how can you claim it was *self-defence* on the part of the passengers — this is where the disconnect occurs.

It was a lawful inspection. You can’t be violently defending your ship from a lawful inspection.

In fact, if you attempt to avoid or prevent inspection, it casts more doubt on your intentions, and grants all the more imperative to the enforcers of the blockade.

Did you know that there is actually a clause of international law that says that if a blockade is announced, it must be enforced. You can’t have a “paper blockade”?

468 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:21:05pm

re: #462 Dark_Falcon

Hell yes I support it! It’s better than Hamas getting regular shipments of rockets from Iran, which is the alternative. You rail against the blockade, but I have yet to hear a method form you by which Hamas could be disarmed.

Track shipments from Iran and interdict them? Without blockading all traffic?

469 Li'l Mamzer  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:21:17pm

Cato the Elder:

Suck my virtual Beretta, Doc.

92FS? (I love mine)

470 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:21:34pm

re: #459 drcordell

So by all objective measurements, the blockade has failed. It still allows weapons to flow in, and Hamas to profit from smuggling. So… why is it still going on?

You COMPLETELY missed my point.

471 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:21:40pm

re: #463 WindUpBird

So awesome that I’m the future of america!

I guess in the future, America will like poofy dresses and faggy music!

472 What, me worry?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:21:48pm

re: #426 Obdicut

Who, aside from AemJeff and Cordell, are you calling an anti-Israel bigot?

Or is two a handful?

They’ve been crawling out of the woodwork all week.

473 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:21:54pm

re: #453 windsagio

Cordell isn’t really antiIsrael in the way you mean anyways, he just has a short temper. Dealing with radicals tends to radicalize.

Bullshit. You are a radical.

474 marsl  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:22:02pm

re: #468 drcordell

We already seen what those pacifists do to israeli inspectors.

475 Gus  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:22:04pm

re: #452 Cato the Elder

Not when it comes to being an apologist for the-world-without-Jews.

You know how it is. For them it’s like taking part in the “model UN.” Everything is relative and while they pretend to be impartial they typically side with the perceived underdog even if that underdog is against every single social ideology they cherish — such as liberty, religious freedom, homosexual freedom, women’s rights, etc. Gaza, Hamas, Fatah, the “cool people” on the flotillas, etc. are all just another virtual Che Guevara t-shirt.

476 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:22:20pm

re: #461 Obdicut

Yes, you do. I have followed the threat. At no point has darthstar supported Hamas.

Please show how he has supported Hamas. It is a gigantic accusation to throw around lightly.

tough shit….dong me tough guy
you are way behind the curve, as usual

477 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:22:25pm

re: #454 Bagua

Oh nonsense, you just have no dog in this fight. If we were talking about an issue dear to you history proves you would not be calm and neutral.

I would not be neutral! Observe my behavior last night. :)


BUT I WOULDN’T INTERNET-THREATEN PEOPLE AND CALL THEM E-TERRORIST SUPPORTERS DURRRR HURR HURR HURR HURR HURR

478 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:22:25pm

re: #468 drcordell

Track shipments from Iran and interdict them? Without blockading all traffic?

Without a legal blockade, it actually would be illegal for Israel to interdict a weapons shipment from a third party. (Maritime law)

479 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:22:33pm

re: #466 albusteve

indeed, your support for Hamas iced the deal

Yes, my logical outline of how the blockade actually benefits Hamas because they profit from smuggling tunnels proves my love for them!

480 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:22:34pm

re: #471 windsagio

So awesome that I’m the future of america!

I guess in the future, America will like poofy dresses and faggy music!

What’s with the homophobic comment?

481 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:22:40pm

re: #473 Bagua

In what way am I radical?

I think my whole pov here is that I’m not emotionally vested in the subject like alot of the people on here are.

482 AemJeff  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:22:46pm

re: #432 Dark_Falcon

Then what is your point?

There’s a difference between “fucking stupid” and “was a vile aggressor.” In a confrontation between well-armed commandos and civilians, I find the idea that that regular folks trying to defend themselves puts them in the position of the moral aggressors. “They deserved to be beaten and shot, because they fought back” seems like a pretty lousy way to see it.

483 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:22:46pm

re: #471 windsagio

So awesome that I’m the future of america!

I guess in the future, America will like poofy dresses and faggy music!

And they’ll all play a fuckton of MvC

484 Tigger2005  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:22:54pm

re: #394 AemJeff

Hell, I ‘ll concede the point on the legality of the boarding, though I’d like to see an objective analysis of that (Dershowitz is a fine lawyer, but he also has a point of view here.) Unarmed civilians (clubs and knives aren’t comparable to guns, it’s not a good point) were assault by commandos at sea - if they choose to defend themselves, that doesn’t change the moral equation. The Israelis may have been within their rights, but there is still no analogy to a domestic police action - and I’m damn sure that at least some of the people arguing that it is would feel differently, based only on the identity of the actors.

God you are thick. Let me use some capitals and repetition for emphasis.

They WERE armed.

They were not ASSAULTED. They were BOARDED. Guys lowering themselves onto the ship one at a time. That is not an ASSAULT.

They were BOARDED by PROFESSIONAL SOLDIERS of a NATIONAL ARMY representing a LEGAL BLOCKADE. Not by terrorists or pirates or even mercenaries.

There was no need to DEFEND themselves. They were not under ATTACK or ASSAULT. They were BOARDED. Had they offered NO RESISTANCE, none of them would have been harmed. THEY KNEW THIS.

THEY INITIATED the violence. THEY attacked the BOARDERS who they knew would not attack them unless necessary for THEIR self defense. They beat up four of the BOARDERS and attempted to drag them below decks, before any of the BOARDERS had even tried to fire a paintball gun.

It is blatantly, patently obvious to anyone who is not willfully blind that they planned all this. We have them on tape preparing for violence. We have some of them on tape talking about wanting to be shahids. I can’t believe that somewhere deep in that brain of yours you KNOW this.

Well, maybe I can. Because you’re just that thick.

485 researchok  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:23:03pm

re: #438 drcordell

I might add, who do you think the blockade benefits? Have you ever thought to think about who is benefiting from the fact that all goods have to be smuggled into Gaza?

Guess who controls all of the smuggling tunnels! Hamas!

Guess who profits from every single object that flows into Gaza in the smuggling tunnel. Such as the smuggled cocoa puffs mentioned in that washington post article? Hamas!

Don’t you get it? Hamas fucking LOVES the blockade. It makes Israel look bad so they can rile up the Gazans. AND it grants them an almost unlimited license to profit off of smuggled goods! It’s a win win! And you support it!

I’ll repeat this so you can be clear on what’s what:

It is inconceivable to me how many people do not understand that removing the blockade will not make things better for Israel as the world insists, but only worse.

Removing the blockade will only facilitate the importation of weapons into Gaza so that that the stated and promised genocide of Jews can take place. The State of Israel is only incidental to the genocide of Jews as promised by Hamas. Their political, ideological and religious beliefs are crystal clear as to their intent. They do not hide it.

That so many nations and supposedly reasonable people are so obtuse as to not understand is just stunning. Over and over we hear that if only Israel were to accede to requests that the blockade (read: cargo inspection) Israel would some how be less hated and reviled.

The only thing the Israelis- and Jews everywhere- could do to placate Hamas would be to pay for weapons and munitions. Then, in order to placate Hamas further, Jews would line themselves up against a wall to be shot.

Those are the kind of Jews Hamas would find acceptable. Those are the only negotiations that Hamas would agree to.

That is why Hamas wants to break the blockade. It interferes with their program.

486 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:23:15pm

re: #449 windsagio

What about your own bluster from last night peace pussy indeed?

if you were even half witted you’d figure it out

487 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:23:29pm

re: #481 windsagio

In what way am I radical?

I think my whole pov here is that I’m not emotionally vested in the subject like alot of the people on here are.

They want you to be on their level of involvement. You’re not, you aren’t invested like they are, and they don’t get it, and you ask questions, and then OMG HAMAS SUPPORTER HRGLBLGRG CRAZY

488 Gus  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:23:41pm

re: #471 windsagio

So awesome that I’m the future of america!

I guess in the future, America will like poofy dresses and faggy music!

You can do that in Israel.

Try that in Gaza.

489 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:23:47pm

re: #480 Bagua

What’s with the homophobic comment?

concern troll lol

490 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:23:53pm

re: #468 drcordell

Track shipments from Iran and interdict them? Without blockading all traffic?

your ability to continually say something dumber is astounding.

so we have that going for us.

your suggestion is as shallow and effective as suggesting that we generate alternative energy with fusion.

sure, maybe someday with much better tech. but today - impossible. fantasy.

491 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:24:00pm

re: #480 Bagua

Injoke :D

WUB’s partner has more than once said I like ‘fag music’. The poofty dresses are just true! I looove poofy dresses!

Unfortunately I don’t look good in them :(

492 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:24:26pm

re: #473 Bagua

Bullshit. You are a radical.

hahahahahaha

man what a great world it would be if Windy was the definition of a radical

493 AemJeff  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:24:30pm

re: #439 Joo-LiZ

You’re being highly sceptical here, so I dunno if you’ll listen to “reason”, or accept this, coming from the Jerusalem Post — and independent, if Israeli — news outlet.

Group of 50 mercenaries responsible for the violence

From the Turkish group IHH, which has been linked to terror groups by different countries. Here is an objective view on the IHH

You’d be surprised, maybe. I haven’t seen that article - but if the premise is true, then that’s a pretty big deal.

494 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:24:34pm

re: #464 WindUpBird

This is the weak-dick bullying Windy talks about.

This is precisely it, right here.

getting it shoved back in your face is not pleasant?….oh my, maybe you twits should think ahead a bit

495 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:24:34pm

re: #491 windsagio

Injoke :D

WUB’s partner has more than once said I like ‘fag music’. The poofty dresses are just true! I looove poofy dresses!

Unfortunately I don’t look good in them :(

You like fag music.

496 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:25:06pm

re: #476 albusteve

tough shit…dong me tough guy
you are way behind the curve, as usual

No. You are being an asshole and accusing darthstar of supporting a terrorist group when he is doing no such thing.

False accusations help no one. It is really, really fucking stupid, as well.

497 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:25:07pm

re: #478 Joo-LiZ

Without a legal blockade, it actually would be illegal for Israel to interdict a weapons shipment from a third party. (Maritime law)

So the U.S. coast guard is violating maritime law every time it seizes drug shipments off the U.S. coast? You have no idea what you’re talking about.

498 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:25:11pm

re: #494 albusteve

getting it shoved back in your face is not pleasant?…oh my, maybe you twits should think ahead a bit

yeah you go ahead and find for me a quote where I e-threatened a guy or called him a terrorist supporter

499 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:25:15pm

re: #481 windsagio

In what way am I radical?

I think my whole pov here is that I’m not emotionally vested in the subject like alot of the people on here are.

You are not “emotionally vested” and yet you issue a constant stream of comments that attack the pro-Israel point of view. You are radical, and intentionally so.

500 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:25:15pm

re: #479 drcordell

Yes, my logical outline of how the blockade actually benefits Hamas because they profit from smuggling tunnels proves my love for them!

it isn’t logical…all else after that is fail

501 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:25:16pm

re: #486 albusteve

if you were even half witted you’d figure it out

Do you wish that i was even half witted youd figure it out?

502 AemJeff  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:25:42pm

re: #484 Tigger2005

Tigger you must be clairvoyant, or something. You’ve got all the facts, and have answers to all of the questions.

503 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:25:46pm

re: #482 AemJeff

Defend themselves from what? What were they being assaulted with?

504 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:25:56pm

re: #468 drcordell

Track shipments from Iran and interdict them? Without blockading all traffic?

The problem is that so many things that would otherwise not be problematic are used by Hamas for warmaking. For that reason, all cargoes need to be searched.

505 Tigger2005  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:25:57pm

re: #407 drcordell

I don’t know what went on during the firefight, because I wasn’t there. I’m simply asking if there is confirmation that the American was armed. Because what I have read stated that he was unarmed.

And you just accept that? What evidence does What You Have Read offer for this?

506 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:26:07pm

re: #482 AemJeff

There’s a difference between “fucking stupid” and “was a vile aggressor.” In a confrontation between well-armed commandos and civilians, I find the idea that that regular folks trying to defend themselves puts them in the position of the moral aggressors. “They deserved to be beaten and shot, because they fought back” seems like a pretty lousy way to see it.

Your mistake is in assuming they are regular folks. Have you taken the time to see the videos of them praying for martyrdom, in the next thread over, even NPR is forced to acknowledge the extremism of some of these youth. I have linked to two sources above that discuss the IHH and their links to terror, and talk about the likelihood that they were paid mercenaries. There are videos on youtube showing the mercenaries getting into an anti-Jewish religious frenzy chanting “Khaybar Khaybar al-Yahood!” (referencing a Quranic battle against jews in which jews are massacred), as well as the videos of the raid themselves.

These people were trained provocateurs and were sent with the specific mission of causing as much damage to Israel’s image as possible, and they succeeded.

507 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:26:14pm

re: #469 Li’l Mamzer

Cato the Elder:

92FS? (I love mine)

The one and only!

(With built-in laser sight in the slide rod, so these old eyes don’t have to see in the dark. And the dark is all around us.)

508 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:26:14pm

re: #498 WindUpBird

Terrorist supporter!

509 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:26:21pm

re: #490 Aceofwhat?

your ability to continually say something dumber is astounding.

so we have that going for us.

your suggestion is as shallow and effective as suggesting that we generate alternative energy with fusion.

sure, maybe someday with much better tech. but today - impossible. fantasy.

Yeah Israel doesn’t have radar that can track ships coming from Iran… that technology certainly doesn’t exist.

510 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:26:45pm

INTERNET! IT ROCKS!

511 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:26:50pm

re: #301 drcordell

Not unless we wanted to be at a state of war with Mexico. Do you understand just how severe a blockade is? When you blockade a nation you are declaring war on them.

Do you think the blockade was the first act of war in that area?

Keep spouting nonsense.

512 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:26:52pm

re: #499 Bagua

You are not a fit judge of such things. You’ve called me a tool of the Palestinian Authority.

513 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:27:00pm

re: #491 windsagio

Injoke :D

WUB’s partner has more than once said I like ‘fag music’. The poofty dresses are just true! I looove poofy dresses!

Unfortunately I don’t look good in them :(

I don’t care. It is ridiculous talk, like black people calling each other N. But I suppose it is just ok for edgy little you to say whatever you please.

514 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:27:03pm

re: #482 AemJeff

There’s a difference between “fucking stupid” and “was a vile aggressor.” In a confrontation between well-armed commandos and civilians, I find the idea that that regular folks trying to defend themselves puts them in the position of the moral aggressors. “They deserved to be beaten and shot, because they fought back” seems like a pretty lousy way to see it.

right, except the ‘activists’ attacked the IDF, who were forced to defend themselves.

the only “fighting back” was on the part of the IDF. ruins your fantasy narrative, i know. *shrug*

515 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:27:04pm

re: #496 Obdicut

No. You are being an asshole and accusing darthstar of supporting a terrorist group when he is doing no such thing.

False accusations help no one. It is really, really fucking stupid, as well.

I only explain myself once…you are nobody special, and to deny bald faced bigotry is really fucking stupid

516 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:27:04pm

re: #500 albusteve

it isn’t logical…all else after that is fail

Right. And the best justification you can provide is…. nothing

517 AemJeff  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:27:13pm

re: #503 Obdicut

They were being assaulted by guys climbing down ropes out of helicopters. If that doesn’t strike you as a provocation, then I can’t help you.

518 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:27:32pm

re: #510 WindUpBird

For you it was a day when I destroyed your arguments and changed your world forever.

For me, it was Friday.

519 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:27:35pm

re: #475 Gus 802

You know how it is. For them it’s like taking part in the “model UN.” Everything is relative and while they pretend to be impartial they typically side with the perceived underdog even if that underdog is against every single social ideology they cherish — such as liberty, religious freedom, homosexual freedom, women’s rights, etc. Gaza, Hamas, Fatah, the “cool people” on the flotillas, etc. are all just another virtual Che Guevara t-shirt.

Oh my. Muy bien. Would you consider dating me if I ever run out of Hopkins grrrls?

520 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:27:43pm

re: #497 drcordell

So the U.S. coast guard is violating maritime law every time it seizes drug shipments off the U.S. coast? You have no idea what you’re talking about.

Drug shipments are different.

If the US were to intercept a weapons shipment to Mexico off the US Coast, that would be illegal.

521 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:27:59pm

re: #515 albusteve

I only explain myself once…you are nobody special, and to deny bald faced bigotry is really fucking stupid

Uncle Leo, is that you? I can’t believe that anti-Semitic waiter serving you cold soup!

522 What, me worry?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:28:12pm

re: #438 drcordell

I might add, who do you think the blockade benefits? Have you ever thought to think about who is benefiting from the fact that all goods have to be smuggled into Gaza?

Guess who controls all of the smuggling tunnels! Hamas!

Guess who profits from every single object that flows into Gaza in the smuggling tunnel. Such as the smuggled cocoa puffs mentioned in that washington post article? Hamas!

Don’t you get it? Hamas fucking LOVES the blockade. It makes Israel look bad so they can rile up the Gazans. AND it grants them an almost unlimited license to profit off of smuggled goods! It’s a win win! And you support it!

Black markets always survive in fear based societies. Look at the Soviet Union or today in Cuba. You can get anything in Cuba, designer clothes, laptops, cell phones, whatever on the black market. Whether the smuggling tunnels are stopped or not, they’ll find another way. Whether there’s a blockade or not, because this blockade is only a few years old, if that and weapons smuggling has been going on for decades.

So don’t talk about smuggling tunnels. The blockade has limited weapons coming into Gaza, it hasn’t stopped them. They have a lot friends in the world, like Hizbollah, Iran, Muslim Brotherhood, etc. who keep at it. As long as they do, Israel will try to stop it.

The U.S. should be stationed at the Philadelphi crossing, but even Bush wouldn’t commit to that. At least our soldiers wouldn’t run.

523 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:28:31pm

re: #314 Obdicut

I’ve got to say, Cordell, it is disappointing. I’ve thought you were much, much more ethical than this.

Why are you insisting that his citizenship matters in the least? Why does what nationality he was matter?

This is just American exceptionalism, and you’re the last person I’d expect to use it.

It’s a handy tool for him when he wants to blame something on Israel.

524 marsl  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:28:50pm

I detect a business opportunity in here:
Let’s start a new cruise line. We may call it “Martyrdom Line”.
Just like the “Love Boat” of the 80’s, but with jihadi activists.
A cruise to Gaza.
A Israeli takeover of the ship.
Those who not get Martyrdom, we would reimburse the money. Or send to Guantanamo.

525 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:29:21pm

This thread is

Youtube Video

GAME OVER

526 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:29:31pm

re: #498 WindUpBird

yeah you go ahead and find for me a quote where I e-threatened a guy or called him a terrorist supporter

do you support lifting the Embargo From Hell?….do you want to see Hamas armed via the sea?

527 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:29:36pm

re: #482 AemJeff

There’s a difference between “fucking stupid” and “was a vile aggressor.” In a confrontation between well-armed commandos and civilians, I find the idea that that regular folks trying to defend themselves puts them in the position of the moral aggressors. “They deserved to be beaten and shot, because they fought back” seems like a pretty lousy way to see it.

Regular folks do not announce they are seeking ‘martyrdom’. Moreover, they attacked without provocation. They started the fighting, and Israel had a clear right to board the ship.

528 Tigger2005  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:29:39pm

re: #502 AemJeff

Tigger you must be clairvoyant, or something. You’ve got all the facts, and have answers to all of the questions.

Damn straight. I’m fuckin’ GOD, man. Whoa. I just waved my hand and a tropical storm started up. Was that cool or what? Hey, is anybody hungry? I could really go for a pizza right now. Wait… what were we talking about?

529 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:29:59pm

re: #512 Obdicut

You are not a fit judge of such things. You’ve called me a tool of the Palestinian Authority.

You are not a fit judge of me as you are always hostile. If I said that, it must have had some context. If you believe these people desperately trying to defend the “aid” jihad are neutral, then you may yet be a tool of some sort.

530 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:30:23pm

re: #324 AemJeff

The Turks clearly dispute it. I’m open to arguments that the Israelis were within their rights to board (IANAL) but the clash occurred outside Israeli or Gazan waters.

Irrelevant according to international law.

Might want to actually brush up on some facts before you make yourself look like a bigger idiot.

531 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:30:23pm

re: #513 Bagua

I don’t care. It is ridiculous talk, like black people calling each other N. But I suppose it is just ok for edgy little you to say whatever you please.

net savvy tough guy….a real veteran

532 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:30:27pm

re: #493 AemJeff

You’d be surprised, maybe. I haven’t seen that article - but if the premise is true, then that’s a pretty big deal.

I’m a little surprised, but it gives me hope.

Did you see the two articles above I linked, Reuters and Globe & Mail about the legality of the boarding?

There are really 3 aspects to this.
1) The blockade
2) The seizure and search of the ship
3) The deaths of the 9 “activists”

The first is the most contentious and really your view will depend on where you stand on the conflict.

The second, in light of the publicly announced blockade is pretty indisputable, despite the spin to the contrary.

The third, depends on the exact circumstances aboard the ship when the shooting happened. For that there is video evidence and increasingly more witness accounts and investigative details being released.

533 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:30:35pm

re: #497 drcordell

So the U.S. coast guard is violating maritime law every time it seizes drug shipments off the U.S. coast? You have no idea what you’re talking about.

Do all USCG intercepts of drug shipments happen strictly in US waters?

534 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:30:56pm

re: #517 AemJeff

They were being assaulted by guys climbing down ropes out of helicopters. If that doesn’t strike you as a provocation, then I can’t help you.

No sir, that is not a provocation. No more than being stopped on the highway by the police is.

535 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:31:15pm

re: #520 Joo-LiZ

Drug shipments are different.

If the US were to intercept a weapons shipment to Mexico off the US Coast, that would be illegal.

What are you talking about? It would be the US intercepting a weapons shipment in US waters. Just like it would be Israel intercepting a weapons shipment in Israeli waters when it happens off the coast of Gaza. Gaza is part of Israel.

536 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:31:18pm

re: #529 Bagua

Wait, you’re calling OBDICUT always hostile?

man.

537 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:31:24pm

re: #521 drcordell

Uncle Leo, is that you? I can’t believe that anti-Semitic waiter serving you cold soup!

not much game there, symp

538 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:31:56pm

re: #517 AemJeff

They were being assaulted by guys climbing down ropes out of helicopters. If that doesn’t strike you as a provocation, then I can’t help you.

So my fifth grade gym class was one long assault? Holy crap!

I fail to see how a method of entry is an assault. An assault normally involves, you know, assaulting someone.

539 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:31:57pm

re: #513 Bagua

I don’t care. It is ridiculous talk, like black people calling each other N. But I suppose it is just ok for edgy little you to say whatever you please.

WUB said it but, ‘lol concerntroll’.

540 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:32:09pm

re: #536 windsagio

Wait, you’re calling OBDICUT always hostile?

man.

To me, clown. He is a puppy dog to the people like you he approves of.

541 marsl  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:32:41pm

re: #533 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

You can inspect all ships in your economic zone. 200 miles.

542 darthstar  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:32:45pm

re: #450 Racer X

Forgot the funniest one.

You’re right…I forgot to upding Cato for originality…sorry, Cato…next time.

543 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:32:53pm

re: #540 Bagua

I bet you wish I were a mime, instead :D


… wait, can mimes type?

544 AemJeff  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:33:25pm

re: #534 Dark_Falcon

No sir, that is not a provocation. No more than being stopped on the highway by the police is.

Yeah, that cop analogy keeps coming up. I don’t like any more now than I did an hour ago. Whether or not it was a legal boarding, the situation does not have the same moral valence of a traffic stop.

545 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:34:07pm

A whole lotta stupid on display here today.

546 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:34:07pm

re: #535 drcordell

What are you talking about? It would be the US intercepting a weapons shipment in US waters. Just like it would be Israel intercepting a weapons shipment in Israeli waters when it happens off the coast of Gaza. Gaza is part of Israel.

See, now we are back into dispute about the basic premise. The status of Gaza as occupied or not.

Do you really think if Israel lifted the “blockade” and then intercepted a ship, that the “international community” wouldn’t rise up and condemn Israel just the same? Is it really worth that risk? Look at what’s happened in Southern Lebanon, where a senior US defense official recently stated at a press conference that Hizballah has more rockets than most governments in the world. That weapons build up occurred under the watchful eye of the UN. You’ll have to view excuse Israel for not being very trusting when it comes to their security.

547 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:34:12pm

re: #509 drcordell

Yeah Israel doesn’t have radar that can track ships coming from Iran… that technology certainly doesn’t exist.

right. all of the things that Iran might wish to smuggle into Gaza are loaded onto Iranian ships and leave straight from Iran and go straight to Gaza. how lucky for us that Iran would never deviate from that blueprint…

keep peeing…

548 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:34:19pm

re: #538 Obdicut

So my fifth grade gym class was one long assault? Holy crap!

I fail to see how a method of entry is an assault. An assault normally involves, you know, assaulting someone.

Thanks for your help in clubbing these trolls, Obi.

549 marsl  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:34:31pm

re: #535 drcordell

What are you talking about? It would be the US intercepting a weapons shipment in US waters. Just like it would be Israel intercepting a weapons shipment in Israeli waters when it happens off the coast of Gaza. Gaza is part of Israel.

Gaza is not part of Israel.

550 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:34:34pm

re: #545 Racer X

A whole lotta stupid on display here today.

You said it, not me!

551 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:34:41pm

re: #539 windsagio

WUB said it but, ‘lol concerntroll’.

Nope, that is bullshit. If anyone on the threads where we discuss things like gay marriage or the Folsome fair starts using words like “poofy and fag” I would call that out as well.

Lol silly you would be all over them as well.

552 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:34:59pm

re: #541 marsl

You can inspect all ships in your economic zone. 200 miles.

Ayep. And regardless of where the intercept happens, if a ship gives the appearance, if not the stated intent, of violating a blockade, then it can be intercepted and boarded. We proved that back during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

553 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:35:09pm

re: #545 Racer X

A whole lotta stupid on display here today.

no shit, even more than last evening…
boo coo poo….
symps

554 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:35:48pm

re: #551 Bagua

Poofy? I get what you’re trying to say with ‘Fag’ (altho I’d be SHOCKED to see somebody seriously use it as a slur on here, which is part of what makes it feel safe to use).

But POOFY?

C’mon man.

555 What, me worry?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:35:56pm

re: #468 drcordell

Track shipments from Iran and interdict them? Without blockading all traffic?

Doc, I must say, you have all the answers here that no one ever thought of before in the 60 years that Israel has been a state. Have you tried a phone call to the Knesset?

Seriously, what makes you think that any of this would have been done yesterday if it could have been? If weapons could be stopped easily in transport. As if they were coming from one area or source. If peace could be made by annexing them or invading them or whatever else you advocate, why has Israel not done it? What do you think is our… I don’t know… ulterior motive??

556 albusteve  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:36:19pm

re: #550 windsagio

You said it, not me!

nobody expects you to see the ovbious

557 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:36:34pm

re: #544 AemJeff

Yeah, that cop analogy keeps coming up. I don’t like any more now than I did an hour ago. Whether or not it was a legal boarding, the situation does not have the same moral valence of a traffic stop.

See my 406.

I can link directly to the San Remo Manual on the Law of the Sea, citing the relevant sections, as well as a link to the PDF for the US Commanders manual, citing relevant section for you to read.

It is very explicit and clear, but the links in my 406 are a good summary.

558 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:36:38pm

re: #547 Aceofwhat?

right. all of the things that Iran might wish to smuggle into Gaza are loaded onto Iranian ships and leave straight from Iran and go straight to Gaza. how lucky for us that Iran would never deviate from that blueprint…

keep peeing…

Exactly. As of right now Iran gets what it wants into Gaza as it is. You think they would never deviate from the blueprint of shipping them via the sea? For fucks sake man.

559 What, me worry?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:37:11pm

re: #549 marsl

Gaza is not part of Israel.

I believe it’s a disputed territory still, since it’s not technically anyone’s country.

560 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:37:16pm

re: #556 albusteve

nobody expects you to see the ovbious

Surely not everyone?

561 marsl  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:37:19pm

re: #552 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

You can itecept and inspect a ship in your EEZ. 200 miles. And you do not need to be on blockade.

Your waters, your call.

and you are resposable for search and rescue, too.

562 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:38:23pm

re: #356 drcordell

So you agree that Israel is still occupying Gaza then?

Do you really not understand the difference between a blockade and an occupation?

Are you this stupid off the internet as well? How have you managed not to be hit by a bus while crossing the street?

563 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:38:52pm

re: #555 marjoriemoon

Doc, I must say, you have all the answers here that no one ever thought of before in the 60 years that Israel has been a state. Have you tried a phone call to the Knesset?

Seriously, what makes you think that any of this would have been done yesterday if it could have been? If weapons could be stopped easily in transport. As if they were coming from one area or source. If peace could be made by annexing them or invading them or whatever else you advocate, why has Israel not done it? What do you think is our… I don’t know… ulterior motive??

I’m not saying there’s an ulterior motive. I’m saying the entire reason that Israel enacted the blockade for one reason, and one reason only. To stop the rocket attacks. And guess what? By that metric The fucking blockade has failed.

Hamas still gets its weapons. They get to profit from the smuggling of all the goods that can’t be imported because of the blockade. And Israel furthers its isolation from the international community.

564 What, me worry?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:38:54pm

Charles snuck in a new thread. I should have known when I finally started catching up LOL

565 What, me worry?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:39:29pm

re: #563 drcordell

I’m not saying there’s an ulterior motive. I’m saying the entire reason that Israel enacted the blockade for one reason, and one reason only. To stop the rocket attacks. And guess what? By that metric The fucking blockade has failed.

Hamas still gets its weapons. They get to profit from the smuggling of all the goods that can’t be imported because of the blockade. And Israel furthers its isolation from the international community.

So they should do nothing, because they’ve never had complete success?

566 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:39:33pm

re: #359 marsl

A blockade is different from occupation

Doesn’t matter.

He’ll just vomit something else up.

He has no need for facts when he already knows The Truth.

567 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:39:34pm

re: #559 marjoriemoon

I believe it’s a disputed territory still, since it’s not technically anyone’s country.

Uh. No. It’s part of Israel.

568 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:40:00pm

re: #558 drcordell

Exactly. As of right now Iran gets what it wants into Gaza as it is. You think they would never deviate from the blueprint of shipping them via the sea? For fucks sake man.

And your suggestion is…what? That Israel only intercept and board Iranian flagged freighters?

569 darthstar  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:40:24pm

re: #564 marjoriemoon

Charles snuck in a new thread. I should have known when I finally started catching up LOL

Before you leave…Mandy said I made an accusation about you…Just want you to know I didn’t, and that if you think I did, I’ll apologize all the same.

Cheers.

570 ryannon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:40:25pm

re: #174 drcordell

Because I’m an American citizen. And if the military of any other nation besides Israel shot one of our citizens to death our government would at least ask some questions about the incident.

Well, they could start by asking his father:

“Dogan’s father told how his son had been shot in the forehead, but he also mentioned how the family took comfort in believing that Furkan had died in an honourable manner. ‘I feel my son has been blessed with heaven,” he said. “I am hoping to be a father — worthy of my son.’”

Sound familiar?

571 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:40:49pm

re: #544 AemJeff

Yeah, that cop analogy keeps coming up. I don’t like any more now than I did an hour ago. Whether or not it was a legal boarding, the situation does not have the same moral valence of a traffic stop.

fine, then use Cato’s protest analogy.

you are standing to peacefully protest something. the national guard comes to remove you.

peaceful protesters go limp and expect to be dragged away, with minimal harm.

terrorists preemptively attack the national guard who, up until that point, desired them no harm…and then complain that “excessive force” was used to subdue them, despite the terrorists having been the aggressors.

stop excusing the terrorists. if they’d have sat still, they’d still be alive.

572 darthstar  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:41:09pm

re: #567 drcordell

Uh. No. It’s part of Israel.

So are international waters, apparently.

/motherfuckin’ sarc, people!

573 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:41:10pm

re: #563 drcordell

The blockade has greatly reduced the rate at which weapons can be imported. Those tunnels don’t have a great capacity, and the Egyptians shut them down fairly quickly. By your standard the Union blockade of the Confederacy failed because the South was still able to ship in some weapons.

574 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:41:33pm

re: #373 drcordell

A land that is completely blockaded on both land and sea, while surrounded by walls and a military force that strikes whenever it desires. How exactly is that not “occupied”?

Because words have meanings.

575 Li'l Mamzer  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:41:34pm

re: #507 Cato the Elder

The one and only!

(With built-in laser sight in the slide rod, so these old eyes don’t have to see in the dark. And the dark is all around us.)

Aha - I’m still with you…..mine came with the CT Lasergrip.
At first I was skeptical about the off-bore-axis, but it’s pretty damn accurate.
It’s the most reliable firearm I’ve ever owned.

576 webevintage  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:41:39pm

re: #517 AemJeff

They were being assaulted by guys climbing down ropes out of helicopters. If that doesn’t strike you as a provocation, then I can’t help you.


But there were not assaulted by guys climbing down ropes until they began assaulting the guys climbing down the ropes.
If they had just let the IDF board the ship without assaulting the commandos no one, NO ONE, would have gotten killed. Boarding a ship is not assaulting the passengers.

I don’t understand why there is any argument about this?

577 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:41:39pm

re: #572 darthstar

/motherfuckin’ sarc, people!

Made me laugh.

578 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:41:42pm

re: #565 marjoriemoon

So they should do nothing, because they’ve never had complete success?

Where did I say do nothing? Can you understand that there might be a middle ground between “let all weapons in” and “total blockade”? Got it?

579 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:42:10pm

re: #578 drcordell

Where did I say do nothing? Can you understand that there might be a middle ground between “let all weapons in” and “total blockade”? Got it?

Which is?

580 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:42:48pm

re: #468 drcordell

Track shipments from Iran and interdict them? Without blockading all traffic?

Charles Krauthammer explains why Israel has resorted to Blockade instead of this other option you mention (hint: it’s been done!):

But even more important, why did Israel even have to resort to blockade? Because, blockade is Israel’s fallback as the world systematically delegitimizes its traditional ways of defending itself — forward and active defense.

Forward defense: As a small, densely populated country surrounded by hostile states, Israel had, for its first half-century, adopted forward defense — fighting wars on enemy territory (such as the Sinai and Golan Heights) rather than its own.

Where possible (Sinai, for example) Israel has traded territory for peace. But where peace offers were refused, Israel retained the territory as a protective buffer zone. Thus Israel retained a small strip of southern Lebanon to protect the villages of northern Israel. And it took many losses in Gaza, rather than expose Israeli border towns to Palestinian terror attacks.

But under overwhelming outside pressure, Israel gave it up. The Israelis were told the occupations were not just illegal but at the root of the anti-Israel insurgencies — and therefore withdrawal, by removing the cause, would bring peace.

Land for peace. Remember? Well, during the past decade, Israel gave the land — evacuating South Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005. What did it get? An intensification of belligerency, heavy militarization of the enemy side, multiple kidnappings, cross-border attacks and, from Gaza, years of unrelenting rocket attack.

Active defense: Israel then had to switch to active defense — military action to disrupt, dismantle and defeat (to borrow President Obama’ s description of our campaign against the Taliban and al-Qaida) the newly armed terrorist mini-states established in southern Lebanon and Gaza after Israel withdrew.

The result? The Lebanon war of 2006 and Gaza operation of 2008-09. They were met with yet another avalanche of opprobrium and calumny by the same international community that had demanded the land-for-peace Israeli withdrawals in the first place. Worse, the U.N. Goldstone report, which essentially criminalized Israel’s defensive operation in Gaza while whitewashing the casus belli — the preceding and unprovoked Hamas rocket war — effectively delegitimized any active Israeli defense against its self-declared terror enemies.

Passive defense: Without forward or active defense, Israel is left with but the most passive and benign of all defenses — a blockade to simply prevent enemy rearmament. Yet, as we speak, this too is headed for international delegitimation.

But, if none of these are permissible, what’s left?

Nothing. The whole point of this relentless international campaign is to deprive Israel of any legitimate form of self-defense.

581 What, me worry?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:43:17pm

re: #567 drcordell

Uh. No. It’s part of Israel.

No, it’s a territory that at this point, Israel wants nothing to do with. That’s why they left it. It was run under the Palestinian Authority until Hamas took it over in 2007.

582 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:43:39pm

re: #558 drcordell

Exactly. As of right now Iran gets what it wants into Gaza as it is. You think they would never deviate from the blueprint of shipping them via the sea? For fucks sake man.

lolz…unwittingly making my point for me…love it.

583 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:44:08pm

re: #554 windsagio

Poofy? I get what you’re trying to say with ‘Fag’ (altho I’d be SHOCKED to see somebody seriously use it as a slur on here, which is part of what makes it feel safe to use).

But POOFY?

C’mon man.

You were hounding Capecoddah for hours last night just for saying the the gays she lived with and socialised with were promiscuous. Poofy sounds a bit derogatory to me, though not as harsh as fag, but in the UK it is used in place of fag. I just don’t think that sort of talk is acceptable here, even as edgy humour. I consistently stand up against homophobia so it is not concern trolling from me.

584 AemJeff  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:44:13pm

re: #557 Joo-LiZ

See my 406.

I can link directly to the San Remo Manual on the Law of the Sea, citing the relevant sections, as well as a link to the PDF for the US Commanders manual, citing relevant section for you to read.

It is very explicit and clear, but the links in my 406 are a good summary.

But I’m not arguing the legality. I’m saying that people on a ship at sea aren’t bound by the same assumptions as they would be at home (or abroad, for that matter) where the police have clear jurisdiction and there’s a clear presumption that they’ll be treated fairly by an objective legal system. (That’s not a swipe at the Israelis - it doesn’t matter who was responsible for the raid in this sense.)

585 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:44:16pm

re: #580 Joo-LiZ

I’d still make the point that the blockade is actually having 2 main effects:

1) Strengthening Hamas’ power in Gaza.

2) Making Israel look bad to the rest of the world.

I’m suspecting that neither of those results is desired.

586 Li'l Mamzer  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:44:22pm

re: #576 webevintage

But there were not assaulted by guys climbing down ropes until they began assaulting the guys climbing down the ropes.
If they had just let the IDF board the ship without assaulting the commandos no one, NO ONE, would have gotten killed. Boarding a ship is not assaulting the passengers.

I don’t understand why there is any argument about this?

Because when Jews get on a boat, it’s an assault.
Also when they shimmy down a rope.

And eat pizza at Sbarro, and ride a bus to work, and……………..

587 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:44:23pm

re: #579 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Which is?

End the blockade. Use port inspections and military surveillance/intelligence to intercept weapons shipments. You can’t fathom anything less than a total blockade?

588 What, me worry?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:44:28pm

re: #569 darthstar

Before you leave…Mandy said I made an accusation about you…Just want you to know I didn’t, and that if you think I did, I’ll apologize all the same.

Cheers.

No, I didn’t see that. I think you were right about all the hot heads and I don’t often type exactly what I mean. I have to be careful with that. I addressed you at the bottom of that thread.

:)

589 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:44:57pm

re: #585 windsagio

I’d still make the point that the blockade is actually having 2 main effects:

1) Strengthening Hamas’ power in Gaza.

2) Making Israel look bad to the rest of the world.

I’m suspecting that neither of those results is desired.

Yeah but to point that out makes you an ANTI SEMITE!!!!!!! You Hamas lover!

590 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:45:19pm

re: #583 Bagua

No. This is not true. Capecoddah insisted, over and over again, that she understood gay culture, and that gay culture involved promiscuity and drugs.

You are making a false accusation.

591 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:45:43pm

re: #394 AemJeff

Hell, I ‘ll concede the point on the legality of the boarding, though I’d like to see an objective analysis of that (Dershowitz is a fine lawyer, but he also has a point of view here.) Unarmed civilians (clubs and knives aren’t comparable to guns, it’s not a good point) were assault by commandos at sea - if they choose to defend themselves, that doesn’t change the moral equation. The Israelis may have been within their rights, but there is still no analogy to a domestic police action - and I’m damn sure that at least some of the people arguing that it is would feel differently, based only on the identity of the actors.

You sure seem to.

Have you not noticed that when people who wouldn’t otherwise agree on what time it was all agree that you’re wrong, it might be time to re-examine how the facts fit your position?

592 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:46:01pm

BBL

593 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:46:13pm

re: #583 Bagua

No, she said she knew Gay culture, she had lived Gay Culture, and Gay Culture was slutty.

She also said that Gay Culture had killed their friends (presuming they actually existed).

Anyways, given that you read all that context, so probably know my position on gays, its the very definition of concern trolling.

594 Li'l Mamzer  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:46:32pm

re: #587 drcordell

End the blockade. Use port inspections and military surveillance/intelligence to intercept weapons shipments. You can’t fathom anything less than a total blockade?

You are incompetent and unqualified to offer any such advice.

You are, however, qualified and competent at being a penis.

595 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:46:33pm

Gaza used to be occupied. Then the Israelis gave it back to the Palestinians because they were promised it would bring peace.

The Palestinians immediately used Gaza as a launching point for rockets and attacks on Israel. Then Gaza was blockaded.

How fucking hard is it to understand?

596 AemJeff  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:47:00pm

re: #576 webevintage

But there were not assaulted by guys climbing down ropes until they began assaulting the guys climbing down the ropes.
If they had just let the IDF board the ship without assaulting the commandos no one, NO ONE, would have gotten killed. Boarding a ship is not assaulting the passengers.

I don’t understand why there is any argument about this?

Military guys coming down ropes from a helicopter with the clear intention of boarding a vessel against the will of its occupants is - by definition - an assault. I’m not sure how you argue otherwise.

597 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:47:17pm

re: #594 Li’l Mamzer

You are incompetent and unqualified to offer any such advice.

You are, however, qualified and competent at being a penis.

Good one.

598 What, me worry?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:47:21pm

re: #578 drcordell

Where did I say do nothing? Can you understand that there might be a middle ground between “let all weapons in” and “total blockade”? Got it?

Like I said, you have the answers? What middle ground? And if there was a better way, why aren’t they doing it?

By the way, TOTAL BLOCKADE? So total that Israel doesn’t send in 1000s of tons of supplies every freakin week. So quit getting all bent out.

599 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:47:46pm

re: #597 drcordell

I’m fully licensed and bonded with my penis!

600 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:47:54pm

re: #585 windsagio

It may be strengthening Hamas’s power in a certain way, but it is vastly reducing their ability to attack Israel directly.

Again, the Israel situation is not one where Israel holds any possible solutions. The solution needs to come from the Muslim world. Israel has nothing but bad choices available to her, and it is not unreasonable for her to seek the safety of her citizens.

601 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:47:54pm

re: #584 AemJeff

But I’m not arguing the legality. I’m saying that people on a ship at sea aren’t bound by the same assumptions as they would be at home (or abroad, for that matter) where the police have clear jurisdiction and there’s a clear presumption that they’ll be treated fairly by an objective legal system. (That’s not a swipe at the Israelis - it doesn’t matter who was responsible for the raid in this sense.)

Yeah, it would be different, but it’s really no less clearcut in international law. Just less-frequently discussed in “everyday” circles. Also, in a much more controversial setting because of the politicized situation.

602 Li'l Mamzer  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:47:57pm

re: #597 drcordell

Good one.

And so small, too.

603 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:48:52pm

re: #600 Obdicut

Oh for sure. That I personally think its a bad decision on their part is almost a different discussion at this point :p

They have the right to blockade (I think), but thats different from whether its a good idea ;)

604 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:49:05pm

bbl

605 darthstar  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:49:07pm

re: #589 drcordell

Yeah but to point that out makes you an ANTI SEMITE!!! You Hamas lover!

I’d like to posit that those who are somewhat critical of Israel are actually being more pro-semitic than some of those who are rabidly defending anything and everything it does without question. Though I hold zero hope that I could convince them of that.

606 What, me worry?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:49:52pm

re: #595 Racer X

Gaza used to be occupied. Then the Israelis gave it back to the Palestinians because they were promised it would bring peace.

The Palestinians immediately used Gaza as a launching point for rockets and attacks on Israel. Then Gaza was blockaded.

How fucking hard is it to understand?

Gaza was never really occupied ever. It was, however, part of Israel at one time, then a disputed territory. I don’t believe it’s in the disputed category any longer, but I don’t really know.

607 darthstar  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:50:18pm

re: #599 windsagio

I’m fully licensed and bonded with my penis!

I did that once when reaching for a tube of lube in the dark one night…yow!

608 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:50:18pm

re: #598 marjoriemoon

Like I said, you have the answers? What middle ground? And if there was a better way, why aren’t they doing it?

By the way, TOTAL BLOCKADE? So total that Israel doesn’t send in 1000s of tons of supplies every freakin week. So quit getting all bent out.

Why isn’t Israel doing it differently? Because they have made their decision that the blockade is the best way forward. Just like they made the decision to launch operation Cast Lead. Don’t ask me to justify Israel’s actions, because I can’t. Especially in the face of data that shows weapons shipments still continue and Hamas continues to profit from the smuggling tunnels they have a monopoly over.

609 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:50:19pm

re: #563 drcordell

I’m not saying there’s an ulterior motive. I’m saying the entire reason that Israel enacted the blockade for one reason, and one reason only. To stop the rocket attacks. And guess what? By that metric The fucking blockade has failed.

Hamas still gets its weapons. They get to profit from the smuggling of all the goods that can’t be imported because of the blockade. And Israel furthers its isolation from the international community.

Nonsense, the blockage dramatically reduces the number and size of rockets that the Hamas terrorists are able to import. Hezbollah is supplied by the same nations, Iran and Syria, and due to there not being an effective blockage, they have much more deadly ballistic missiles to fire at Israel.

What is needed is an end to the weapons smuggling from Egypt as well, but the blockade is vital. Besides the obvious propaganda value for people like you to imbibe, the obvious motivation is to open up a sea route for weapons that are too big to smuggle through tunnel. Hamas does not have a reliable over-land route for this as does Hexbollah.

If you were not biased you would see this, it’s obvious.

610 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:50:53pm

re: #596 AemJeff

Military guys coming down ropes from a helicopter with the clear intention of boarding a vessel against the will of its occupants is - by definition - an assault. I’m not sure how you argue otherwise.

No, it is not the definition of an assault.

An assault is a physical attack on a person. It is not the entry into an area. At all.

611 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:50:57pm

re: #587 drcordell

End the blockade. Use port inspections and military surveillance/intelligence to intercept weapons shipments. You can’t fathom anything less than a total blockade?

Port inspections…where? The point of the blockade was to prevent ships from docking in Gaza and instead dock them in Israel, where they can be inspected thoroughly. You’ve said that’s not working, so where should the inspections be taking place and who should be doing the inspecting?

As for interceptions, where would you suggest? In international waters, where they’ll find themselves still being accused of piracy? What happens the first time they intercept a ship flying French/British/Turkish/German/etc flags and turn up nothing?

I can’t fathom anything less than a total blockade because a total blockade seems to be the only thing that has worked. Is it perfect? No, it certainly is not, but the number of rocket and mortar attacks have dropped significantly since it began and the difficulty of smuggling weapons and materials into Gaza has meant it’s costing them a great deal to keep even those limited attacks going. If you cut them off financially, you might even…believe it or not…see the attacks end altogether.

612 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:51:20pm

re: #424 AemJeff

No, I don’t. They were idiots. But that’s not the point I’m trying to make.

But it’s what you’re using to try to make that point.

You’ve already admitted that there would have been no violence had the “peace activists” acted like… well, peace activists.

So why are you still trying to claim that it’s Israel’s fault things escalated?

613 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:51:54pm

re: #605 darthstar

I’d like to posit that those who are somewhat critical of Israel are actually being more pro-semitic than some of those who are rabidly defending anything and everything it does without question. Though I hold zero hope that I could convince them of that.

Sadly, that same argument is used by people who are anti-semitic to justify their views.

(I’m NOT calling you anti-semitic, just pointing it out).

I like this description of the situation:

What kind of Freudian limbo do Israelis now supposedly inhabit where everything they do and create is just another telling symbol of chauvinism, paranoia, and frustration. Friends of Israel often decry the absurd standards to which “world powers” try to hold the Jewish state. But this isn’t even about selective standards; it’s a category distinction. Here are the rules: Russia, which has been illegally occupying Georgia for almost two years, and facilitating Iran’s nuclear and anti-aircraft programs for even longer, is a state. North Korea, which recently sank a South Korean navy boat full of 46 sailors (not in oh-so-precious international waters, but in South Korean waters), starves its own population, and threatens to destroy Seoul, is a state. Pakistan — the creation of which led to a million deaths and millions more displaced, in order to give a single religious group its own area– is a terrorist Disneyland; it is also a state, achieving independence in 1947. Israel, on the other hand, is the world’s Hitchcock dream sequence. And it better not forget it.

That’s what all this criticism of the flotilla operation amounts to. How dare Israel act in service of its existence as a country when it’s so valuable as a symbol. In this way, those who wag their fingers at Israel for insufficiently weighing optics and PR and world opinion have put an insidious twist on the denial of Israel’s right to exist. For if it is forbidden to act on its own behalf as a state then there is an implicit denial of its right to be one. After all, when a state prevents a fleet of armed enemies from breaking its blockade with no casualties on their side it’s called a smashing success. When it’s done by Israel it’s just another sinister emblem of increasingly violent suicidal tendencies.

614 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:52:07pm

re: #578 drcordell

Where did I say do nothing? Can you understand that there might be a middle ground between “let all weapons in” and “total blockade”? Got it?

You mean like this middle ground?

615 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:52:07pm

re: #607 darthstar

Lol ouch. That can end up with a VERY embarassing trip to the ER >>

616 Tigger2005  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:52:51pm

re: #538 Obdicut

So my fifth grade gym class was one long assault? Holy crap!

I fail to see how a method of entry is an assault. An assault normally involves, you know, assaulting someone.

And climbing one by one down a ladder made them sitting ducks actually. An ASSAULT team would probably have hit the deck all at once … probably a few landing simultaneously from above and creating a distraction while others rappelled up the sides of the ship.

617 AemJeff  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:52:51pm

re: #610 Obdicut

No, it is not the definition of an assault.

An assault is a physical attack on a person. It is not the entry into an area. At all.

That’s an awfully literal reading of the word. The threat is completely explicit in a case like this.

618 What, me worry?  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:52:55pm

I’m done. I need to relax a bit. I’ll catch up to you guys later.

619 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:53:10pm

re: #590 Obdicut

No. This is not true. Capecoddah insisted, over and over again, that she understood gay culture, and that gay culture involved promiscuity and drugs.

You are making a false accusation.

No, you are making a false statement.

620 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:53:31pm

re: #609 Bagua

Nonsense, the blockage dramatically reduces the number and size of rockets that the Hamas terrorists are able to import. Hezbollah is supplied by the same nations, Iran and Syria, and due to there not being an effective blockage, they have much more deadly ballistic missiles to fire at Israel.

What is needed is an end to the weapons smuggling from Egypt as well, but the blockade is vital. Besides the obvious propaganda value for people like you to imbibe, the obvious motivation is to open up a sea route for weapons that are too big to smuggle through tunnel. Hamas does not have a reliable over-land route for this as does Hexbollah.

If you were not biased you would see this, it’s obvious.

You’re so right Bagua. I’m the one who is “biased” and can’t see reality. By the way, how’s that reality working out for Israel?

Have the rocket attacks stopped? Nope. Is Galid Shalit still in captivity? Yup. Are Israeli soldiers fighting daily battles and putting their lives at risk? Yup. Is Israel’s standing in the international community weakening by the day? Yup. Has Hamas been strengthened by both operation Cast Lead and the flotilla incident? Yup.

621 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:54:10pm

re: #438 drcordell

I might add, who do you think the blockade benefits? Have you ever thought to think about who is benefiting from the fact that all goods have to be smuggled into Gaza?

Guess who controls all of the smuggling tunnels! Hamas!

Guess who profits from every single object that flows into Gaza in the smuggling tunnel. Such as the smuggled cocoa puffs mentioned in that washington post article? Hamas!

Don’t you get it? Hamas fucking LOVES the blockade. It makes Israel look bad so they can rile up the Gazans. AND it grants them an almost unlimited license to profit off of smuggled goods! It’s a win win! And you support it!

Jesus H. Christmas, you’re a fucking idiot.

ALL goods have to be smuggled in?

No, only weapons have to be smuggled in, the genocidal maniac Israelis deliver almost everything else.

What color is the sky on your planet?

622 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:54:14pm

re: #593 windsagio

No, she said she knew Gay culture, she had lived Gay Culture, and Gay Culture was slutty.

She also said that Gay Culture had killed their friends (presuming they actually existed).

Anyways, given that you read all that context, so probably know my position on gays, its the very definition of concern trolling.

What she was doing you mean?

623 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:54:47pm

re: #620 drcordell

You’re so right Bagua. I’m the one who is “biased” and can’t see reality. By the way, how’s that reality working out for Israel?

Have the rocket attacks stopped? Nope. Is Galid Shalit still in captivity? Yup. Are Israeli soldiers fighting daily battles and putting their lives at risk? Yup. Is Israel’s standing in the international community weakening by the day? Yup. Has Hamas been strengthened by both operation Cast Lead and the flotilla incident? Yup.


Only in image, and only because of arguments like those you are making. In which you fail to accord Israel the legitimacy of a state which can make its own decisions about these things.

624 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:55:06pm

re: #622 Bagua

No what you were doing upthread.

What she was doing was making up crap to support her prejudices.

625 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:55:37pm

re: #619 Bagua

No, you are making a false statement.

Are you claiming that CapeCoddah did not claim to understand “Gay culture”, did not claim that it involved promiscuity and drug use, and did not, in fact, call WUB a liar if he said that his understanding of gay culture didn’t involve promiscuity and drug use?

626 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:56:15pm

re: #621 alexknyc

Jesus H. Christmas, you’re a fucking idiot.

ALL goods have to be smuggled in?

No, only weapons have to be smuggled in, the genocidal maniac Israelis deliver almost everything else.

What color is the sky on your planet?

Uhhhh… no? Go read about the new cars smuggled into gaza. Or the electronics. Or the food like cocoa puffs. Israel doesn’t import everything into Gaza. They give them the basics. If you want anything they aren’t selling, tough shit. Unless you buy it from Hamas.

627 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:56:41pm

re: #459 drcordell

So by all objective measurements, the blockade has failed. It still allows weapons to flow in, and Hamas to profit from smuggling. So… why is it still going on?

Are you unable to comprehend written English?

“But that is NOTHING compared to the flow that would rush into Gaza if the blockade were removed.”

628 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:57:06pm

re: #617 AemJeff

That’s an awfully literal reading of the word. The threat is completely explicit in a case like this.

Thank you for admitting that it was not an assault— again.

You do realize a threat is definitely, definitely not an assault, right?

629 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:57:33pm

re: #462 Dark_Falcon

Hell yes I support it! It’s better than Hamas getting regular shipments of rockets from Iran, which is the alternative. You rail against the blockade, but I have yet to hear a method form you by which Hamas could be disarmed.

Probably because he doesn’t think they should be.

630 AemJeff  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:57:49pm

re: #628 Obdicut

Thank you for admitting that it was not an assault— again.

You do realize a threat is definitely, definitely not an assault, right?

Nice try.

631 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:58:59pm

re: #468 drcordell

Track shipments from Iran and interdict them? Without blockading all traffic?

Sure, because the Iranians aren’t crafty enough to ship by proxy.

Are you really this dense or only when it comes to Israel?

632 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:59:18pm

re: #623 Joo-LiZ

Only in image, and only because of arguments like those you are making. In which you fail to accord Israel the legitimacy of a state which can make its own decisions about these things.

Again with the bigotry talk. Find me a quote where I challenge Israel’s right to make any of these decisions? I’m questioning their choices not their right to make them? Comprende?

Israel can do whatever the fuck it wants in Gaza. Bomb it, surround it, wall it off, blockade it, occupy it. Whatever they want. They’re a sovereign nation. Gaza isn’t. Go nuts!

However, that doesn’t mean it’s smart of them to do so. That doesn’t mean all of these decisions aren’t putting Israel in a worse position to eventually end the conflict. It doesn’t mean Israel isn’t slowly isolating itself from the international community, much in the way that South Africa was eventually isolated.

633 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 4:59:41pm

re: #474 marsl

We already seen what those pacifists do to israeli inspectors.

And immigration officers trying to ID them.

634 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:01:24pm

re: #631 alexknyc

Sure, because the Iranians aren’t crafty enough to ship by proxy.

Are you really this dense or only when it comes to Israel?

The point is, Gaza is a small fucking strip of land. And Israel is smart enough to figure out which ships warrant a search and which won’t. A blockade that bans the importation of sugar is overkill.

635 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:02:47pm

re: #630 AemJeff

Nice try.

Nice try in what way, Jeff?

You’ve admitted that the commandos didn’t assault the ‘activists’. You’re saying that they threatened to assault them— through the fact that they had sidearms, I assume.

So you are arguing, in essence, that the ‘activists’ had the right to defend themselves against the commandos because they had sidearms, even though they were using paintball guns and not using the sidearms, because carrying the sidearm is an inherent threat of assault.

That is a very, very weak line of logic, especially since on the other ships, the commandos did not carry through on this ‘threat’ and no one was harmed. Only on one ship was their violence, and it was not initiated by the commandos.

So how can you refer to it as an assault, when in every case but this one, no violence, no assault resulted? How is it an assault when no one is harmed?

636 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:02:48pm

re: #620 drcordell

You’re so right Bagua. I’m the one who is “biased” and can’t see reality. By the way, how’s that reality working out for Israel?

Have the rocket attacks stopped? Nope.

Which argues for more military intervention and a tighter blockade extended to the border with Egypt.


Is Galid Shalit still in captivity? Yup.


Which shows there is a state of war, Gaza is ruled by a terrorist group and
Israel should increase military pressure on the terrorists.


Are Israeli soldiers fighting daily battles and putting their lives at risk? Yup.

Because of the ongoing war of attrition being fought against Israel by numerous terrorist groups and nations.

Is Israel’s standing in the international community weakening by the day? Yup.

Fuck the anti-Semitic “international community” of Jew haters.

Has Hamas been strengthened by both operation Cast Lead and the flotilla incident? Yup.

Nope. They did not succeed in opening a sea route for weaponry and in Cast Lead got a spanking. All of which argues for Israel taking stronger military action.

637 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:03:06pm

re: #621 alexknyc

Jesus H. Christmas, you’re a fucking idiot.

ALL goods have to be smuggled in?

No, only weapons have to be smuggled in, the genocidal maniac Israelis deliver almost everything else.

What color is the sky on your planet?

Every merchant who buys one of the prized blue canisters will pay a $40 (£25) premium for the difficult and dangerous task of just transporting them, says his boss, Ahmed. But in Gaza, where cooking gas has been virtually unobtainable, the merchants recoup that outlay, selling them on for more than $100. “Everything people lack in Gaza comes through the tunnels,” he explains.

The hundreds of tunnels ferry every possible commodity – from diesel fuel, clothing, chocolate, cigarettes and potato chips to cattle and Chinese-made motorcycles. And reportedly even the occasional hospital patient who has been to Egypt for treatment and is then shipped on a trolley and drugged to prevent panic attacks underground.

[Link: www.independent.co.uk…]

638 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:03:58pm

re: #634 drcordell

The point is, Gaza is a small fucking strip of land. And Israel is smart enough to figure out which ships warrant a search and which won’t. A blockade that bans the importation of sugar is overkill.

No sugar in Gaza.

639 AemJeff  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:05:34pm

re: #635 Obdicut

Don’t tell me what I’ve said. “Assault” is the word I used and it’s what I meant. There’s no ambiguity.

640 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:05:59pm

re: #625 Obdicut

Are you claiming that CapeCoddah did not claim to understand “Gay culture”, did not claim that it involved promiscuity and drug use, and did not, in fact, call WUB a liar if he said that his understanding of gay culture didn’t involve promiscuity and drug use?


Nope.

641 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:06:05pm

re: #636 Bagua

Nope. They did not succeed in opening a sea route for weaponry and in Cast Lead got a spanking. All of which argues for Israel taking stronger military action.

God you are great. Like an amazing broken record. The international community? All Jew haters! Israeli military action? Unqualified success! Blockade? Success!

Lucky for you, you should have your entire life to keep supporting Israeli military interventions into Gaza. And the blockade. And condemning the other nations on earth besides Israel. And worrying about kidnapped Israeli soldiers.

Because with things carrying along the way they are; this. shit. will. never. end.

642 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:06:14pm

re: #482 AemJeff

There’s a difference between “fucking stupid” and “was a vile aggressor.” In a confrontation between well-armed commandos and civilians, I find the idea that that regular folks trying to defend themselves puts them in the position of the moral aggressors. “They deserved to be beaten and shot, because they fought back” seems like a pretty lousy way to see it.

How were they “fighting back?” when you yourself have admitted there would have been no violence without the actions of the “peace activists?”

Do words have meanings in your world?

643 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:06:41pm

re: #638 Alouette

No sugar in Gaza.

You do realize that sugar does not equal candy, yes?

644 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:06:46pm

re: #637 drcordell

Every merchant who buys one of the prized blue canisters will pay a $40 (£25) premium for the difficult and dangerous task of just transporting them, says his boss, Ahmed. But in Gaza, where cooking gas has been virtually unobtainable, the merchants recoup that outlay, selling them on for more than $100. “Everything people lack in Gaza comes through the tunnels,” he explains.

The hundreds of tunnels ferry every possible commodity – from diesel fuel, clothing, chocolate, cigarettes and potato chips to cattle and Chinese-made motorcycles. And reportedly even the occasional hospital patient who has been to Egypt for treatment and is then shipped on a trolley and drugged to prevent panic attacks underground.

[Link: www.independent.co.uk…]

And let me guess, you believe that the shortage is solely due to Israel, correct? That Hamas does not in any way act to interdict the flow of aid and supplies from Israel to the people of Gaza?

645 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:07:29pm

re: #638 Alouette

No sugar in Gaza.

Also, all of that candy was probably smuggled in through a tunnel from Egypt. By Hamas. For a tidy profit.

646 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:08:09pm

re: #643 drcordell

You do realize that sugar does not equal candy, yes?

Are you saying they make candy out of sand in Gaza?

647 AemJeff  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:08:50pm

re: #642 alexknyc

How were they “fighting back?” when you yourself have admitted there would have been no violence without the actions of the “peace activists?”

Do words have meanings in your world?

Good god. Military commandos boarding a ship full of civilians and you can’t understand how the ship’s occupants might perceive that as a mortal threat? Are you serious?

648 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:08:53pm

re: #645 drcordell

Also, all of that candy was probably smuggled in through a tunnel from Egypt. By Hamas. For a tidy profit.

In a typical week the IDF coordinates the transfer of hundreds of trucks containing about 15,000 tons of supplies. During the week of May 18, 2010 there were more than 100 truckloads of animal food, 65 trucks of fruit and vegetables; 22 truckloads of sugar, some 27 truckloads of meat, poultry and fish; and 40 trucks of dairy products. At holiday times, Israel increases transfers. During the Muslim holy days of Ramadhan and Eid al-Adha, Israel shipped some 11,000 heads of cattle into the Strip.

649 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:09:01pm

re: #640 Bagua

Nope.

Nope what, Bagua? Are you saying she did not make those claims?

What false statement have I made, as you accused me of?

650 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:09:09pm

re: #644 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

And let me guess, you believe that the shortage is solely due to Israel, correct? That Hamas does not in any way act to interdict the flow of aid and supplies from Israel to the people of Gaza?

DING DING DING!!!! We have a winner! Hamas is allowed to control the flow of goods because there is no other option! Either it’s brought in via humanitarian groups that have no choice but to deal with Hamas because they are the ruling party, or it’s smuggled in via tunnels controlled by Hamas. There is no independent commerce because of the blockade!

651 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:09:48pm

re: #646 Bagua

Are you saying they make candy out of sand in Gaza?

I’m saying that candy wasn’t made in Gaza.

652 windsagio  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:09:51pm

This sugar thing is losing me.

That being said let me try:

Theres a difference between something being unavailable and something being blockaded.

If there’s plenty of the crap inside anyways, why can’t people ship it in? (presuming that its verboten, this whole last convo is kinda weird).

653 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:10:15pm

re: #650 drcordell

DING DING DING!!! We have a winner! Hamas is allowed to control the flow of goods because there is no other option! Either it’s brought in via humanitarian groups that have no choice but to deal with Hamas because they are the ruling party, or it’s smuggled in via tunnels controlled by Hamas. There is no independent commerce because of the blockade! HAMAS


ftfy

654 Tigger2005  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:10:37pm

re: #563 drcordell

I’m not saying there’s an ulterior motive. I’m saying the entire reason that Israel enacted the blockade for one reason, and one reason only. To stop the rocket attacks. And guess what? By that metric The fucking blockade has failed.

Hamas still gets its weapons. They get to profit from the smuggling of all the goods that can’t be imported because of the blockade. And Israel furthers its isolation from the international community.

No other nation that does the things that Israel does (and yes, other nations do the things Israel does) gets “isolated from the international community.” No one blames a nation for fighting wars for survival. No nation, that is, except Israel. No one blames a nation for putting up a wall and roadblocks to stop killers from entering and murdering its citizens. No nation, that is, except Israel. No one blames a nation for invading another nation that is raining rockets down on its citizens. No nation, that is, except Israel. No one blames a nation for establishing a blockade to prevent an entity with which it is at war from re-arming. No nation, that is, except Israel.

There is NOTHING Israel can do that will NOT “further its isolation from the international community,” drcordell. Don’t you understand? Nothing. Every move it has made to try to make the international community happy has just placed it in greater danger. Every perfectly legitimate and internationally accepted step (by any other nation except Israel) it has taken to defend itself and ensure its security has been met with international outrage.

This is it, drcordell. This is the line in the sand. This is all Israel has left. And you want them to give this up as well. To make the international community happy. Which nothing else Israel has done to appease the international community has achieved.

Why can’t you understand?

655 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:10:54pm

re: #650 drcordell

You cannot possibly be this naive.

656 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:11:05pm

re: #517 AemJeff

They were being assaulted by guys climbing down ropes out of helicopters. If that doesn’t strike you as a provocation, then I can’t help you.

Since when is climbing down a rope an assault?

I guess I’ll have to report the entire gym class now.

657 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:11:54pm

re: #648 Alouette

In a typical week the IDF coordinates the transfer of hundreds of trucks containing about 15,000 tons of supplies. During the week of May 18, 2010 there were more than 100 truckloads of animal food, 65 trucks of fruit and vegetables; 22 truckloads of sugar, some 27 truckloads of meat, poultry and fish; and 40 trucks of dairy products. At holiday times, Israel increases transfers. During the Muslim holy days of Ramadhan and Eid al-Adha, Israel shipped some 11,000 heads of cattle into the Strip.

Jesus Christ in a handbasket. It’s like banging my head against the wall here. Do you not understand the difference between the IDF blockading sugar from entering Gaza, and the IDF preventing anyone else from bringing sugar in?

658 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:11:57pm

re: #647 AemJeff

Good god. Military commandos boarding a ship full of civilians and you can’t understand how the ship’s occupants might perceive that as a mortal threat? Are you serious?

What about the other five ships?

659 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:12:23pm

re: #657 drcordell

Jesus Christ in a handbasket. It’s like banging my head against the wall here. Do you not understand the difference between the IDF blockading sugar from entering Gaza, and the IDF bringing sugar in?

PIMF

660 Liberal Classic  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:13:12pm

re: #343 darthstar

It’s just a little blood-lust. For people this far away from Israel, it’s a form of entertainment and fuel for fantasy—the fact that an American got shot in the head four times is really irrelevant (and a little inconvenient)… You just have to let it go. The critics who actually matter in this debate are the ones who actually live in Israel, and those who are dealing directly with both Israel and the Palestinians.

I’ve stayed out of this thread until now, but I feel compelled to respond to this post. This post is so out of line, I don’t know where to begin. It accuses me of blood lust. It says that I am distant, and engaging in a fantasy. You must be unthinking if you accuse me of these things. It takes no effort to find posts here expressing the regretful need to contain rocket attacks from Hamas and enforce the embargo from lots of people. Everybody in their right mind wishes groups like Hamas would lay down their arms, but they won’t. They’re brainwashed. They’re fanatical. Building a wall and isolating Gaza is the best thing Israel can do, because any alternative involves more bloodshed.

As for being no stake in the discussion, my great uncle and aunt lived in Haifa for forty years. They witnessed all sorts of conflict during their time there. They’ve seen first hand the part religious extremism plays in all this. But my role is not tribal or religious. I consider myself a secular American. I stand by Israel as a friend and ally to the U.S. because they are a democratic country that (on the balance) protects the right of its citizens to practice religion, publish freely, etc. Their values are our values. Their neighbors are largely theocracies or dictatorships. Those values are not my values.

In conclusion, let me just say in the strongest possible terms you are full of shit. Thank you.

661 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:14:22pm

re: #655 Charles

You cannot possibly be this naive.

What I know is that the entire point of the blockade was to “strangle” Hamas, and run them from power. And in reality it has strengthened Hamas by all objective measures. Not to mention failed to prevent further rocket attacks. So why the hell is Israel still maintaining the blockade?

662 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:15:18pm

re: #657 drcordell

Jesus Christ in a handbasket. It’s like banging my head against the wall here. Do you not understand the difference between the IDF blockading sugar from entering Gaza, and the IDF preventing anyone else from bringing sugar in?

You said the IDF was blockading sugar, now you’re tying yourself up in knots trying to weasel out of it.

663 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:15:33pm

Anyone? Anyone here have a single objective measure by which the blockade has succeeded in weakening Hamas? Buehler?

664 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:15:36pm

re: #655 Charles

You cannot possibly be this naive.

Yes. Or deceitful.

One or the other.

665 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:16:29pm

re: #663 drcordell

Anyone? Anyone here have a single objective measure by which the blockade has succeeded in weakening Hamas? Buehler?

How many rockets fall into Israel each week?

666 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:16:47pm

re: #650 drcordell

DING DING DING!!! We have a winner! Hamas is allowed to control the flow of goods because there is no other option! Either it’s brought in via humanitarian groups that have no choice but to deal with Hamas because they are the ruling party, or it’s smuggled in via tunnels controlled by Hamas. There is no independent commerce because of the blockade!

You’re right, you have no other option because if you point out that they’re hoarding the cooking oil that Israel ships in on a weekly basis, they blow your brains out and then draw your family out in the streets to ventilate them as well. They then turn around and sell a small portion of the oil to the locals at greatly inflated prices, while the rest gets sold on the international black market for a huge profit, which they plow into weapons and other military goods to fuel their war against Israel.

Lifting the blockade won’t change that, it’ll just allow some goods that currently can’t get in to get in. But Hamas will likewise seize those and control the distribution to their benefit, just as they did before the blockade. Who’s going to stop them?

667 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:17:01pm

re: #662 Alouette

You said the IDF was blockading sugar, now you’re tying yourself up in knots trying to weasel out of it.

They ARE blockading sugar. Do you not understand the difference between the blockade and Israeli aid shipments? Blocking anyone BUT Israel from importing sugar into Gaza is a fucking blockade. By definition.

668 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:18:16pm

re: #576 webevintage

But there were not assaulted by guys climbing down ropes until they began assaulting the guys climbing down the ropes.
If they had just let the IDF board the ship without assaulting the commandos no one, NO ONE, would have gotten killed. Boarding a ship is not assaulting the passengers.

I don’t understand why there is any argument about this?

Because it’s Israel and The Joos.

669 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:18:26pm

re: #661 drcordell

What I know is that the entire point of the blockade was to “strangle” Hamas, and run them from power. And in reality it has strengthened Hamas by all objective measures. Not to mention failed to prevent further rocket attacks. So why the hell is Israel still maintaining the blockade?

Really? The blockade has strengthened Hamas … how? You mean, strengthened them even more since the Palestinians of Gaza voted for them overwhelmingly? How does that work?

And haven’t you been constantly complaining that Gaza has been virtually destroyed, the people are destitute, they have nothing, etc.?

If all that’s true, how the hell does this equate to “Hamas is strengthened?”

You’re arguing out of both sides of your mouth.

670 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:19:00pm

re: #578 drcordell

Where did I say do nothing? Can you understand that there might be a middle ground between “let all weapons in” and “total blockade”? Got it?

Apparently you don’t since you advocate letting all weapons in since the Israelis can’t stop all of them anyway.

671 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:21:29pm

re: #665 Racer X

How many rockets fall into Israel each week?

I shit you not, I had the anti-Israel “expert” tell me the other day that the reason the number of rocket attacks have dropped is because Hamas is trying to be peaceful. That they’re trying to stop attacks against Israel and that those who do launch rockets are not part of Hamas.

I was laughing so hard, I think I woke up the neighbors.

672 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:21:54pm

re: #671 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I shit you not, I had the anti-Israel “expert” tell me the other day that the reason the number of rocket attacks have dropped is because Hamas is trying to be peaceful. That they’re trying to stop attacks against Israel and that those who do launch rockets are not part of Hamas.

I was laughing so hard, I think I woke up the neighbors.

I had an
PIMF

673 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:23:01pm

re: #585 windsagio

I’d still make the point that the blockade is actually having 2 main effects:

1) Strengthening Hamas’ power in Gaza.

2) Making Israel look bad to the rest of the world.

I’m suspecting that neither of those results is desired.

No, but it’s apparently better than the death of thousands of Israelis.

674 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:23:12pm

The same irrational arguments are coming up over and over at TrueSlant, by the way. As much as I’m appalled at where the right wing has gone, this is an area where the left is apparently every bit as irrational and beyond reason as Sarah Palin.

675 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:24:24pm

re: #641 drcordell

God you are great. Like an amazing broken record. The international community? All Jew haters! Israeli military action? Unqualified success! Blockade? Success!

Lucky for you, you should have your entire life to keep supporting Israeli military interventions into Gaza. And the blockade. And condemning the other nations on earth besides Israel. And worrying about kidnapped Israeli soldiers.

Because with things carrying along the way they are; this. shit. will. never. end.

No, it will not end the way you want it to, with Israels defeat. It will end when Israel steps up and defeats her enemies, or when they stop attacking her.

Either your side chooses peace, or our side defeats you. Those are is the choices to end the conflict.

676 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:24:37pm

re: #669 Charles

Really? The blockade has strengthened Hamas … how? You mean, strengthened them even more since the Palestinians of Gaza voted for them overwhelmingly? How does that work?

And haven’t you been constantly complaining that Gaza has been virtually destroyed, the people are destitute, they have nothing, etc.?

If all that’s true, how the hell does this equate to “Hamas is strengthened?”

You’re arguing out of both sides of your mouth.

It’s not that hard to understand. Hamas was elected in questionable elections (pushed for by the eminently wise GW Bush I might add). The result was hardly a landslide for Hamas. The elections were bitterly contested.

Now, as a result of the blockade and the resulting flotilla clusterfuck, Hamas’ popularity has risen. They have been massively strengthened economically by their ability to sell smuggled goods at inflated prices. Their ability to smuggle weapons has not been curtailed.

And yes, despite all of this much of Gaza remains a bombed-out shithole. I’m not sure why Hamas can’t be strengthened while Gazan infrastructure remains completely bombed-out. Terrorists don’t need infrastructure. In fact, Hamas prefers that Gaza remain bombed out.

677 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:24:56pm

re: #649 Obdicut

Nope what, Bagua? Are you saying she did not make those claims?

What false statement have I made, as you accused me of?

Lol.

678 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:25:50pm

re: #651 drcordell

I’m saying that candy wasn’t made in Gaza.

I didn’t realise you were posting from Gaza. What does it say on the wrapper?

679 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:27:21pm

re: #676 drcordell

It’s not that hard to understand. Hamas was elected in questionable elections (pushed for by the eminently wise GW Bush I might add). The result was hardly a landslide for Hamas. The elections were bitterly contested.

Now, as a result of the blockade and the resulting flotilla clusterfuck, Hamas’ popularity has risen. They have been massively strengthened economically by their ability to sell smuggled goods at inflated prices. Their ability to smuggle weapons has not been curtailed.

And yes, despite all of this much of Gaza remains a bombed-out shithole. I’m not sure why Hamas can’t be strengthened while Gazan infrastructure remains completely bombed-out. Terrorists don’t need infrastructure. In fact, Hamas prefers that Gaza remain bombed out.

You’re right, Hamas profits from the misery of Gaza, so what will change by ending the blockade? Do you believe that, by dropping the blockade and letting banned items flow back in, that Hamas’ power base will suddenly disappear? That the people will rise up, throw them out, and establish an Israel-friendly regime?

If you do, I know some guys who escaped from Castro’s Cuba who’d like to have a few words with you.

680 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:27:46pm

re: #675 Bagua

No, it will not end the way you want it to, with Israels defeat. It will end when Israel steps up and defeats her enemies, or when they stop attacking her.

Either your side chooses peace, or our side defeats you. Those are is the choices to end the conflict.

Who said I want Israeli defeat? I want fucking peace. I’m sick of the endless violence. The point you can’t seem to wrap your head around is that there is no defeat that Israel can win. Either Palestine becomes a nation, or Israel takes it over. Anything in between is untenable. And politically impossible for Israel to continue in the long-term. Either Palestinians become their own citizens, or Israel makes them citizens of Israel. An apartheid-like situation with a quasi-independent Palestine walled off and blockaded cannot last.

681 Tigger2005  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:28:15pm

re: #667 drcordell

They ARE blockading sugar. Do you not understand the difference between the blockade and Israeli aid shipments? Blocking anyone BUT Israel from importing sugar into Gaza is a fucking blockade. By definition.

“Oh dear. It’s just sugar for heaven’s sake! Why shouldn’t just anybody be able to bring sugar into Gaza from anywhere?”

Are you really this stupid? Do you think a truck or boat labeled “sugar” must necessarily contain sugar?

682 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:28:51pm

re: #617 AemJeff

That’s an awfully literal reading of the word. The threat is completely explicit in a case like this.

What threat?

You yourself admitted there would have been no violence.

So what was the threat?

683 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:29:54pm

re: #679 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

You’re right, Hamas profits from the misery of Gaza, so what will change by ending the blockade? Do you believe that, by dropping the blockade and letting banned items flow back in, that Hamas’ power base will suddenly disappear? That the people will rise up, throw them out, and establish an Israel-friendly regime?

If you do, I know some guys who escaped from Castro’s Cuba who’d like to have a few words with you.

I don’t believe that Hamas will magically disappear. But they won’t have a major source of funding. And they won’t be able to rile up support amongst Gazans by using the blockade to gin up support.

684 drcordell  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:31:10pm

re: #681 Tigger2005

“Oh dear. It’s just sugar for heaven’s sake! Why shouldn’t just anybody be able to bring sugar into Gaza from anywhere?”

Are you really this stupid? Do you think a truck or boat labeled “sugar” must necessarily contain sugar?

Sugar is a banned item. Not “trucks labeled sugar.” Sugar itself. Banned. As per the blockade. You really need to stop embarrassing yourself.

685 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:32:23pm

re: #676 drcordell

It’s not that hard to understand. Hamas was elected in questionable elections (pushed for by the eminently wise GW Bush I might add). The result was hardly a landslide for Hamas. The elections were bitterly contested.

Now you’re just saying things that simply are not true. 78% of Palestinians turned out for the election and Hamas gained 76 seats in the 132-seat legislature.

That, my friend, is a landslide by anyone’s standards.

Now, as a result of the blockade and the resulting flotilla clusterfuck, Hamas’ popularity has risen.

Really? Their popularity has risen from almost unanimous to completely unanimous? Wow. Impressive.

They have been massively strengthened economically by their ability to sell smuggled goods at inflated prices.

Gee, that’s not what they say.

Their ability to smuggle weapons has not been curtailed.

Again, this is absolutely not even remotely true. You’re just making stuff up.

And yes, despite all of this much of Gaza remains a bombed-out shithole. I’m not sure why Hamas can’t be strengthened while Gazan infrastructure remains completely bombed-out. Terrorists don’t need infrastructure. In fact, Hamas prefers that Gaza remain bombed out.

Hmm. And why would that be? So that people like you will be fooled into giving them moral support and sympathy they don’t deserve.

686 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:32:31pm

re: #684 drcordell

Sugar is a banned item. Not “trucks labeled sugar.” Sugar itself. Banned. As per the blockade. You really need to stop embarrassing yourself.

SUGAR IS NOT BANNED, YOU ASSHOLE.

687 Tigger2005  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:33:31pm

re: #680 drcordell

Who said I want Israeli defeat? I want fucking peace. I’m sick of the endless violence. The point you can’t seem to wrap your head around is that there is no defeat that Israel can win. Either Palestine becomes a nation, or Israel takes it over. Anything in between is untenable. And politically impossible for Israel to continue in the long-term. Either Palestinians become their own citizens, or Israel makes them citizens of Israel. An apartheid-like situation with a quasi-independent Palestine walled off and blockaded cannot last.

Don’t you think the Israelis are sick of the endless violence? Don’t you understand how desperately they want it to end? Why don’t you go live there for a while and live in their shoes and try to understand THEM?

It’s Hamas, and the majority of the Palestinians, and much of the Arab world that doesn’t want peace, AND THIS IS NOT BECAUSE OF ANYTHING ISRAEL HAS DONE! It’s because Israel EXISTS!

688 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:33:38pm

re: #683 drcordell

I don’t believe that Hamas will magically disappear. But they won’t have a major source of funding. And they won’t be able to rile up support amongst Gazans by using the blockade to gin up support.

You honestly believe that? That if the blockade goes, Hamas’ control over the flow of goods in Gaza will go with it?

I gotta agree with Charles, you cannot seriously be this naive.

689 Gus  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:33:58pm

In a typical week the IDF coordinates the transfer of hundreds of trucks containing about 15,000 tons of supplies. During the week of May 18, 2010 there were more than 100 truckloads of animal food, 65 trucks of fruit and vegetables; 22 truckloads of sugar, some 27 truckloads of meat, poultry and fish; and 40 trucks of dairy products. At holiday times, Israel increases transfers. During the Muslim holy days of Ramadhan and Eid al-Adha, Israel shipped some 11,000 heads of cattle into the Strip.

[Link: www.mfa.gov.il…]

690 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:34:18pm

I must log off, Shabbat approaches. See y’all tomorrow night!

691 Tigger2005  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:34:44pm

re: #684 drcordell

Sugar is a banned item. Not “trucks labeled sugar.” Sugar itself. Banned. As per the blockade. You really need to stop embarrassing yourself.

Look who’s talkin’.

692 Li'l Mamzer  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:34:55pm

re: #690 Alouette

Shabbat Shalom - my challah was excellent tonight!

693 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:35:22pm

re: #647 AemJeff

Good god. Military commandos boarding a ship full of civilians and you can’t understand how the ship’s occupants might perceive that as a mortal threat? Are you serious?

Maybe because the other five ships had already been boarded and NO VIOLENCE HAD OCCURRED.

694 Bagua  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:35:51pm

re: #690 Alouette

I must log off, Shabbat approaches. See y’all tomorrow night!

Shabbat Shalom.

695 Racer X  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:35:58pm

re: #686 Alouette

SUGAR IS NOT BANNED, YOU ASSHOLE.

You’re wasting your breath. Cordell is either lying through his teeth, or he is dumb as a post.

696 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:37:08pm

re: #695 Racer X

You’re wasting your breath. Cordell is either lying through his teeth, or he is dumb as a post.

My bet is on both, but I’m biased.

697 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:37:11pm

re: #654 Tigger2005

No other nation that does the things that Israel does (and yes, other nations do the things Israel does) gets “isolated from the international community.” No one blames a nation for fighting wars for survival. No nation, that is, except Israel. No one blames a nation for putting up a wall and roadblocks to stop killers from entering and murdering its citizens. No nation, that is, except Israel. No one blames a nation for invading another nation that is raining rockets down on its citizens. No nation, that is, except Israel. No one blames a nation for establishing a blockade to prevent an entity with which it is at war from re-arming. No nation, that is, except Israel.

There is NOTHING Israel can do that will NOT “further its isolation from the international community,” drcordell. Don’t you understand? Nothing. Every move it has made to try to make the international community happy has just placed it in greater danger. Every perfectly legitimate and internationally accepted step (by any other nation except Israel) it has taken to defend itself and ensure its security has been met with international outrage.

This is it, drcordell. This is the line in the sand. This is all Israel has left. And you want them to give this up as well. To make the international community happy. Which nothing else Israel has done to appease the international community has achieved.

Why can’t you understand?

He understands just fine.

Don’t assume you and he have the same ends in mind.

698 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:38:12pm

re: #657 drcordell

Jesus Christ in a handbasket. It’s like banging my head against the wall here. Do you not understand the difference between the IDF blockading sugar from entering Gaza, and the IDF preventing anyone else from bringing sugar in?

You don’t seem to understand the word “blockade.”

699 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:38:28pm

re: #685 Charles

I have but one up-ding to give. If you coded another ‘up-ding’, I would do it again.

700 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:40:16pm

re: #663 drcordell

Anyone? Anyone here have a single objective measure by which the blockade has succeeded in weakening Hamas? Buehler?

The thousands of Israelis still alive because Hamas couldn’t get ALL the weapons they wanted into the country?

Or are they still being alive not a success in your mind?

701 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:44:35pm

re: #676 drcordell

Their ability to smuggle weapons has not been curtailed.

They’ve definitely been curtailed.

They’ve not been halted but definitely curtailed.

702 Gus  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:45:57pm

6.5 tons of potassium nitrate discovered in sugar bags marked as EU assistance
29 Dec 2007

Bags marked as EU-imported sugar containing potassium nitrate used to produce explosives in Gaza

(Communicated by the IDF Spokesman)

Now released for publication: In a joint IDF and ISA operation several weeks ago, a truck was caught at one of the crossing points in Judea and Samaria carrying approximately 6.5 tons of potassium nitrate. The potassium nitrate was disguised in sugar bags, and was intended for use by terrorists in the Gaza Strip.

Potassium nitrate is a banned substance in the Gaza Strip and the Judea and Samaria region due to its use by terrorists for the manufacturing of explosives and Kassam rockets.

The terror organizations disguised the potassium nitrate in sugar bags that were marked as being part of the humanitarian aid provided by the European Union. This is another example of how the terror organizations exploit the humanitarian aid that is delivered to the Palestinian population in the Gaza Strip with Israel’s approval.

703 Li'l Mamzer  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:46:53pm

re: #700 alexknyc

The thousands of Israelis still alive because Hamas couldn’t get ALL the weapons they wanted into the country?

Or are they still being alive not a success in your mind?


I think the fact that so many Jews are still alive is just so humiliating to the Arabs - you know, HYOO-MEELEE-AY-SHUN - by the EES-RAH-EELIES, due to the fact that the Jews are, uhhh, still alive.

So for that reason I give Hamas and those who support them a pass.

704 alexknyc  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:47:23pm

re: #695 Racer X

You’re wasting your breath. Cordell is either lying through his teeth, or he is dumb as a post.

Why can’t it be both?

705 Tigger2005  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:49:59pm

re: #702 Gus 802

6.5 tons of potassium nitrate discovered in sugar bags marked as EU assistance
29 Dec 2007

Bags marked as EU-imported sugar containing potassium nitrate used to produce explosives in Gaza

Great find, Gus!

Embarrassing myself, my ass.

706 Gus  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:53:10pm

re: #705 Tigger2005

Great find, Gus!

Embarrassing myself, my ass.

OK This of course points out that the idea of allowing anything into Gaza to go unchecked is rather dangerous. Here was have 6.5 tons of potassium nitrate labeled as sugar. That would require all trucks carrying sugar to be subject to a thorough and complete inspection. That would mean every single bag of sugar.

707 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:54:51pm

re: #706 Gus 802

OK This of course points out that the idea of allowing anything into Gaza to go unchecked is rather dangerous. Here was have 6.5 tons of potassium nitrate labeled as sugar. That would require all trucks carrying sugar to be subject to a thorough and complete inspection. That would mean every single bag of sugar.

I think the theme we have here is:

“Anything they can do to make a weapon…they will.”

Messed up people they are, with messed up sympathizers.

708 Gus  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 5:56:21pm

re: #707 Oh no…Sand People!

I think the theme we have here is:

“Anything they can do to make a weapon…they will.”

Messed up people they are, with messed up sympathizers.

Sugar and potassium nitrate can be used to make a smoke bomb. Mind you those smoke bombs can be rather big and used for terrorist activities.

709 marsl  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 6:10:18pm

We con the World

Youtube Video
710 Li'l Mamzer  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 6:11:06pm

re: #709 marsl

We con the World


[Video]

Bob Dylan at 6:33 is awesome.

711 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jun 4, 2010 9:49:05pm

re: #677 Bagua

Lol.

You have no answer because you lied when you accused me of making a false statement.

You should stop.


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