Here’s the aerial footage released today by the IDF, showing Israeli soldiers boarding the Rachel Corrie and taking control of the vessel.
There was no violence and no one was killed or injured. Of course, there was no ambush by violent radical Islamists either. Funny how those two factors seem to coincide.
1 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:08:50am |
New York Times has a feature on the Mavi Marmara.
It is a pretty good depiction of the Israeli side of the story (Israel has done a good job getting it out), but it completely white washes the activists:
Of the two ropes that were dropped simultaneously from the helicopter, one was grabbed by men on board the boat and tied to an antenna, Israeli officials said. The pilot released it to avoid being tethered to the boat, and the commandos then slid down only one rope, slowing the incursion and leaving them vulnerable.
Some of the activists, hearing the pop of the plastic bullets and the sound bomb, believed they were being shot, according to witnesses, including some wounded now in an Ankara hospital.
It was a small group of aggressive activists on the upper deck who overwhelmed the first soldiers, wrenching away their weapons and, according to Dr. Coskun and video images supplied by the Israeli military, beating them with wooden poles and metal rods that they had ripped or sawed off the side of the boat.
The confrontation pitted the powerful Israeli military, determined to have its way by enforcing its controversial blockade of Gaza, against a group of activists from a Turkish Islamic charity intent on breaking it. The group, Insani Yardim Vakfi, is known by its Turkish initials, I.H.H.
...
In Istanbul, the activists had come home and Dr. Coskun was remembering the raid. He was bitter that commandos had not let him help a bleeding man, instead delivering occasional kicks, he said, and forcing the passengers to lie face down on the deck, handcuffed, for hours.He was also angry at the young men who fought the commandos. He rebuked one of them for bragging about having beaten an Israeli.
“I told him, just because you wanted to flex your muscles and drag three soldiers down, nine people ended up dead.”
But most of all he was stunned that the Israelis had used their guns on the activists.
"Just becuase you wanted to flex your muscles and drag three soldiers down", my ass.
| 3 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:11:52am |
Brand new audio (kinda poor quality) posted by IDF of conversation with the MV Rachel Corrie
| 4 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:13:18am |
re: #3 Joo-LiZ
Brand new audio (kinda poor quality) posted by IDF of conversation with the MV Rachel Corrie
[Video]
It's quite long.
| 5 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:13:41am |
| 6 |
jordash1212 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:14:04am |
Interesting how they did this the complete opposite. In the daylight and boarding it from the water. Thankfully the passengers onboard knew not to fight against the soldiers. Netanyahu has kindly called them actual "peace activists" as opposed to those on the Mavi Marma. What is important is that Israel will not fall to international hypocrisy and weak moral authority and create an Iranian port in Gaza and allow Hamas to rearm itself.
| 7 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:14:07am |
re: #3 Joo-LiZ
Brand new audio (kinda poor quality) posted by IDF of conversation with the MV Rachel Corrie
[Video]
WOW.
Israel offered to send the CEMENT to Gaza, if the Rachel Corrie co-operated, and they refused.
| 8 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:15:05am |
re: #6 jordash1212
From the NYT story I linked at the top, it explains the helicopter landing had to be done because of the size of the Mavi Marmara -- the MV Rachel Corrie is much smaller.
| 9 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:15:12am |
re: #3 Joo-LiZ
Brand new audio (kinda poor quality) posted by IDF of conversation with the MV Rachel Corrie
[Video]
That hum gave me a headache.
| 10 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:15:28am |
Just checked my Facebook friends list and noticed that only one bailed on me after my negative comment about the MV "Rachel Corrie" yesterday.
I guess it makes sense that he happens to be a German.
| 11 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:16:11am |
re: #7 Joo-LiZ
WOW.
Israel offered to send the CEMENT to Gaza, if the Rachel Corrie co-operated, and they refused.
What? Why would Hamas refuse?
| 12 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:17:02am |
re: #11 MandyManners
What? Why would Hamas refuse?
Because if they break the blockade they get whatever they want to get?
It's at the end of the audio clip.
| 13 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:18:41am |
re: #10 Cato the Elder
Just checked my Facebook friends list and noticed that only one bailed on me after my negative comment about the MV "Rachel Corrie" yesterday.
I guess it makes sense that he happens to be a German.
List of the Germans from the ninth trip. Lefties.
[Link: www.freegaza.org...]
| 14 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:19:38am |
re: #12 Joo-LiZ
Because if they break the blockade they get whatever they want to get?
It's at the end of the audio clip.
Cutting off their noses to spite their faces or, stategic thinking?
| 15 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:19:51am |
I thought "navy soldiers" were called sailors? I guess the IDF is different.
| 16 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:20:42am |
The absolute definition of a "useful idiot."
He believes the nine lives lost were not in vain; the world has heard their story.
"They died as martyrs, and I think that is really the case," he said.
| 17 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:21:11am |
re: #15 wrenchwench
I thought "navy soldiers" were called sailors? I guess the IDF is different.
They need to be explicit in hyper-politicized situations like this. People would cry bloody murder and lies and propaganda to call a navy "sailors". Even if it is technically right. (I don't know if it is or not)
| 18 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:23:37am |
re: #16 Charles
But somehow the searchers didn't find one of Schermerhorn's most treasured possessions -- the chip from his camera in his wallet, wrapped in a tiny piece of paper and nestled behind pictures of his children.
Imagine if that had tried to remove pictures of his children from his wallet?
Sheesh!
| 19 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:23:51am |
re: #16 Charles
Also this little tidbit....
Wearing the same clothes he wore the day of the siege, Schermerhorn was stripped of everything but the clothes on his back.But somehow the searchers didn't find one of Schermerhorn's most treasured possessions -- the chip from his camera in his wallet, wrapped in a tiny piece of paper and nestled behind pictures of his children.
He certainly didn't was the Israelis to find the pics he took. I suspect he probably didn't have evidence of anything we don't already know but he knew enough to try to hide it.
| 20 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:24:27am |
| 21 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:27:12am |
World Nut Daily: Is flotilla battle signaling start of 'Gog and Magog'?
| 23 |
jordash1212 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:28:02am |
re: #20 wrenchwench
You should have heard what the protesters on my campus were saying after the Mavi Marma incident. I had to get a drink afterwards to relieve the stress on my brain.
| 24 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:28:25am |
re: #21 Killgore Trout
Today, many Israelis are atheists. Certainly you will find very few Jewish people who believe in Jesus as their Messiah, although there are some. But they do have a determination to return to their homeland. They realize that they can look to no other nation for their protection or security and have returned to Israel, thus fulfilling prophecy from Scripture. But when the Holy Spirit is poured out on Israel after God drives back the invading armies of Magog, the Bible predicts there will be a revival in which numerous Jewish people will come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah," Laurie explained.
The Godless Jews must convert!
| 25 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:29:02am |
A friend on Facebook says Helen Thomas should be fired for suggesting that the Israelis go back to Germany and Poland.
I say, put her in a trebuchet and fire her into Lebanon. She's poisonous enough to take out Hezbollah all by herself.
| 26 |
TampaKnight Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:29:29am |
Just checked the HuffPo: the leftist hate of Israel continues.
| 27 |
TampaKnight Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:29:59am |
re: #25 Cato the Elder
A friend on Facebook says Helen Thomas should be fired for suggesting that the Israelis go back to Germany and Poland.
I say, put her in a trebuchet and fire her into Lebanon. She's poisonous enough to take out Hezbollah all by herself.
She should be kicked out of the White House, FINALLY, for good.
| 28 |
Oh no...Sand People! Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:30:21am |
re: #25 Cato the Elder
A friend on Facebook says Helen Thomas should be fired for suggesting that the Israelis go back to Germany and Poland.
I say, put her in a trebuchet and fire her into Lebanon. She's poisonous enough to take out Hezbollah all by herself.
I can just picture it...
| 29 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:30:56am |
I just realized -- autopsy results showing activists shot at "close range" vindicates Israel that they weren't shooting before they boarded.
| 30 |
jordash1212 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:31:33am |
| 31 |
Oh no...Sand People! Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:31:59am |
re: #29 Joo-LiZ
I just realized -- autopsy results showing activists shot at "close range" vindicates Israel that they weren't shooting before they boarded.
I would like to agree, but in this atmosphere of 'mental contortions', NOTHING can vindicate Israel.
| 32 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:32:39am |
This is hilarious: White House linked to flotilla organizers
| 33 |
jordash1212 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:32:53am |
re: #29 Joo-LiZ
Doesn't matter. Anyone who wants to attack Israel will point out that over 30 shots were fired, 5 shot in the head, some shot multiple times in the legs chest and head. The people who want to demonize Israel will always find some limp statistics to "support" their "arguments."
| 34 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:34:19am |
| 35 |
STiHunter Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:34:22am |
re: #8 Joo-LiZ
It also fails to mention that Israel offered to escort the ship to dock in Ashdod to inspect the cargo. The way they describe this is truly disturbing.
NYTimes Quote "But Israel, committed to enforcing a blockade, did not consider alternatives like searching the cargo before unloading it in Gaza — a decision that has prompted criticism that Israel was too quick to choose confrontation and fell into a trap set by the activists."
Did they mean search the ship while still at sea, which would be impossible? Or did they mean that Israel should have followed the ship to the Gaza Port, and searched it there, also impossible?
| 36 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:34:48am |
re: #29 Joo-LiZ
I just realized -- autopsy results showing activists shot at "close range" vindicates Israel that they weren't shooting before they boarded.
True. I also suspect that most of the dead came from searching the ship below decks for the captured soldiers. Very dangers, tight spaces, narrow cooridors, lots of bulkheads and doors, small rooms. Everything would happen with very close contact.
| 37 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:34:49am |
| 38 |
Oh no...Sand People! Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:34:50am |
re: #32 Killgore Trout
This is hilarious: White House linked to flotilla organizers
Without having read such sholarly research, I am guessing it's a 200 degrees to Kevin Bacon sort of thing using such fantastic leaps of logic of 'Obama is a sekrit muslim' = flotilla funded by Turkish government = OBAMA RAN THE BLOCKADE HIMSELF!!MOOAARR!!!ELEVEENTY!!
| 39 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:35:39am |
re: #32 Killgore Trout
This is hilarious: White House linked to flotilla organizers
Once upon a time, I linked to a WND thing not knowing what they were. I was slapped down hard over here at LGF.
I forgot about them till now, but DAMN that's tin-foil hat crazy
| 40 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:35:40am |
re: #38 Oh no...Sand People!
Yeah, that's pretty much it.
| 41 |
Oh no...Sand People! Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:36:49am |
re: #39 Joo-LiZ
Once upon a time, I linked to a WND thing not knowing what they were. I was slapped down hard over here at LGF.
I forgot about them till now, but DAMN that's
tin-foil hat crazypar for the course amongst the evangelical socons.
FTFY.
| 42 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:36:56am |
re: #35 STiHunter
It also fails to mention that Israel offered to escort the ship to dock in Ashdod to inspect the cargo. The way they describe this is truly disturbing.
NYTimes Quote "But Israel, committed to enforcing a blockade, did not consider alternatives like searching the cargo before unloading it in Gaza — a decision that has prompted criticism that Israel was too quick to choose confrontation and fell into a trap set by the activists."
Did they mean search the ship while still at sea, which would be impossible? Or did they mean that Israel should have followed the ship to the Gaza Port, and searched it there, also impossible?
Yeah, I figuratively cried out in outrage when I read that also.
| 43 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:37:55am |
re: #32 Killgore Trout
This is hilarious: White House linked to flotilla organizers
Unbelievably pathetic.
And there's a Republican respresentative who's already outraged about it and sending a letter to President Obama demanding answers:
[Link: www.congress.org...]
| 45 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:38:53am |
Why are the murderous ones among the "activists" still called "activists" by the NYT?
| 46 |
TampaKnight Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:39:35am |
re: #43 Charles
Unbelievably pathetic.
And there's a Republican respresentative who's already outraged about it and sending a letter to President Obama demanding answers:
[Link: www.congress.org...]
Isn't there a single staffer in these peoples' offices that can say "Hey, uh, let's NOT send this insane article to Congress demanding an investigation and make ourselves look nuts".
| 47 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:40:12am |
If a freaking asteroid hit the Earth, these people would spend their final days trying to find Obama's sekrit connection to it.
| 48 |
TampaKnight Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:42:12am |
re: #47 Charles
If a freaking asteroid hit the Earth, these people would spend their final days trying to find Obama's sekrit connection to it.
And the left would be tying it back to George Bush somehow.
It'd be good fun to watch.
| 49 |
STiHunter Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:42:38am |
re: #47 Charles
Or blaming the Jews saying they were testing some new secret weapon.
| 50 |
jordash1212 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:43:30am |
re: #48 TampaKnight
I'm waiting for the ultimate conspiracy by the right that Bush was Obama's plot to polarize the American public so he could be elected. Or am I too late?
| 51 |
Oh no...Sand People! Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:43:38am |
I will put all speculation to rest. If an asteroid hits, I did it.
*bows*
| 52 |
Digital Display Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:43:57am |
re: #47 Charles
If a freaking asteroid hit the Earth, these people would spend their final days trying to find Obama's sekrit connection to it.
What do you mean? Those nuts will be raptured long before any Asteroid strike...
/
| 53 |
Oh no...Sand People! Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:44:40am |
re: #52 HoosierHoops
What do you mean? Those nuts will be raptured long before any Asteroid strike...
/
I got dibs on Creflo Dollars sweet ride.
| 54 |
jamesfirecat Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:45:04am |
re: #21 Killgore Trout
World Nut Daily: Is flotilla battle signaling start of 'Gog and Magog'?
Now remember yah squigs, Gog is the the one whose brutally cunning so he hits you where you aren't looking and Magog is the one whose is cunningly brutal so he hits you really hard where you are looking!
Oh wait that's Gork and Mork.... my mistake..
| 55 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:48:27am |
The comments for Tim Blair's stupid smear attempt are pretty funny -- none of them get the "ignorant slut" reference, and they're all getting fake outraged that I would use such an outrageously outrageous term to refer to their brain-dead hero.
Lots of whining about my "incredible vitriol" mixed right in with blasts of hatred directed at me. It's classic right wing cognitive dissonance.
| 56 |
Oh no...Sand People! Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:50:08am |
re: #55 Charles
The comments for Tim Blair's stupid smear attempt are pretty funny -- none of them get the "ignorant slut" reference, and they're all getting fake outraged that I would use such an outrageously outrageous term to refer to their brain-dead hero.
Lots of whining about my "incredible vitriol" mixed right in with blasts of hatred directed at me. It's classic right wing cognitive dissonance.
To be honest, I didn't either.
| 57 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:54:39am |
re: #32 Killgore Trout
This is hilarious: White House linked to flotilla organizers
From the description of one of the links:
This thread has been pulled. Pulled on 06/05/2010 8:00:52 AM PDT by Admin Moderator, reason: [Link: www.freerepublic....]com2528381/posts[link disabled] ...
Heh. But I ain't clicking to see the reason. I'll make up my own.
| 58 |
Digital Display Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:54:57am |
| 59 |
Oh no...Sand People! Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:57:41am |
re: #58 HoosierHoops
Jane you ignorant Slut!
Oh, I am sure the reason is archived in whereever he said / typed it, but I it didn't click right off...and still hasn't for I know not where to find it.
| 60 |
Tigger2005 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:57:53am |
re: #26 TampaKnight
Just checked the HuffPo: the leftist hate of Israel continues.
Before I joined LGF, I was a regular visitor (and occasional poster) to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board. Being a board primarily for atheists and agnostics, it was decidedly liberal, but I generally did not visit the politically-oriented forums because I was more interested in discussions about evolution and biblical literalism. I would watch board members brilliantly dissect the arguments of the anti-evolutionists and literalists with facts, logic, and reason.
However, after 9/11 I was absolutely flabbergasted to find conspiracy theories and later, BDS running rampant. I tried to explain to people that they were arguing exactly like anti-evolutionists, that they were simply throwing their own principles to the wind and indulging in wild fantasy, making up ad hoc arguments, committing all sorts of logical fallacies. They more or less told me to fuck off. They couldn't even see what they were doing.
I am quite sure that if I were to visit the political forums on IIDB today I would find the same sort of deranged anti-Israel sentiment found on HuffPo. And in the Bible and evolution forums, the science forums, etc. I would still find the same fact-loaded, rational arguments against biblical literalism and in support of evolution and AGW.
It seems like people are not just extreme hypocrites... they are literally going crazy, or schizophrenic, or whatever. They're cracking up. One hand doesn't know what the other is doing...it's Jekyll and Hyde. People are failing to maintain their integrity, their principles...here the principles apply, here they're tossed away without a thought, and you can't even get them to see what they're doing.
| 61 |
Tigger2005 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:58:56am |
re: #47 Charles
If a freaking asteroid hit the Earth, these people would spend their final days trying to find Obama's sekrit connection to it.
Well, they'd spend their final days BEFORE the asteroid hit. Wouldn't be any days after that.
| 62 |
researchok Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:00:16am |
re: #55 Charles
The comments for Tim Blair's stupid smear attempt are pretty funny -- none of them get the "ignorant slut" reference, and they're all getting fake outraged that I would use such an outrageously outrageous term to refer to their brain-dead hero.
Lots of whining about my "incredible vitriol" mixed right in with blasts of hatred directed at me. It's classic right wing cognitive dissonance.
Blair is dealing with a whole lot more than dissonance. He's made his relationship with you personal.
It's as if you've become a necessary foil for him to rail against.
Not so good.
| 64 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:00:49am |
re: #60 Tigger2005
People are failing to maintain their integrity, their principles...here the principles apply, here they're tossed away without a thought, and you can't even get them to see what they're doing.
They won't accept facts from any source that doesn't excoriate Israel, because "it's biased". Very difficult to deal with.
| 65 |
Guanxi88 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:01:19am |
re: #61 Tigger2005
Well, they'd spend their final days BEFORE the asteroid hit. Wouldn't be any days after that.
Just keep telling yourself that. Everyone knows that the Build-your-burger guys don't plan to be here when the asteroid hits. They'll be safely sequestered in their secret resort - on the dark side of the moon - waiting for the dust to settle. once their army of ape-laborers is done being cloned, they'll rebuild the world to their liking.
The Build-your-burgers are counting on your defeatism! Do you want an ape future?
| 66 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:03:08am |
re: #64 wrenchwench
They won't accept facts from any source that doesn't excoriate Israel, because "it's biased". Very difficult to deal with.
Insanely difficult to deal with.
| 67 |
researchok Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:03:17am |
re: #45 Cato the Elder
Why are the murderous ones among the "activists" still called "activists" by the NYT?
A bad habit is a hard thing to break.
Or, they will be forever obtuse.
| 68 |
Macha Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:03:52am |
re: #21 Killgore Trout
World Nut Daily: Is flotilla battle signaling start of 'Gog and Magog'?
Oh Great, one more end times scenario. Just what we need. Jesus surfing in on a longboard through the heavenly clouds to millions of screaming estatic Jews who are proclaiming "we were wrong and you ARE the messiah". These So. Cal. mega churches are all about crowd hysteria and fantasy. Christian rock, big hair and E M O T I ON.
| 69 |
Guanxi88 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:04:49am |
re: #45 Cato the Elder
Why are the murderous ones among the "activists" still called "activists" by the NYT?
Because the cause of dead jews is very near and dear to their hearts, I suppose.
Revolting, really, but very revealing.
| 70 |
Guanxi88 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:05:41am |
re: #68 Macha
Oh Great, one more end times scenario. Just what we need. Jesus surfing in on a longboard through the heavenly clouds to millions of screaming estatic Jews who are proclaiming "we were wrong and you ARE the messiah". These So. Cal. mega churches are all about crowd hysteria and fantasy. Christian rock, big hair and E M O T I ON.
Hey, everyone needs a hobby, and everyone likes a show, after all.
| 71 |
Tigger2005 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:06:40am |
re: #68 Macha
Oh Great, one more end times scenario. Just what we need. Jesus surfing in on a longboard through the heavenly clouds to millions of screaming estatic Jews who are proclaiming "we were wrong and you ARE the messiah".
Whoa man, yeah. I can dig it. Hey, is anyone hungry? I could really go for a pizza right now. Wait... what was I saying?
| 72 |
Guanxi88 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:06:50am |
re: #48 TampaKnight
And the left would be tying it back to George Bush somehow.
It'd be good fun to watch.
From orbit.
| 73 |
Renaissance_Man Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:07:17am |
re: #64 wrenchwench
They won't accept facts from any source that doesn't excoriate Israel, because "it's biased". Very difficult to deal with.
I have to say, as I try to educate myself on the situation with Israel and the Middle East in general, I'm having trouble finding any source of information that does not present one side as wholly right and the other as wholly wrong. There seems to be such entrenched polarity on this issue that any viewpoint that is not wholly partisan automatically becomes an apologist/sympathiser with the other.
Who knows, maybe this is one of those issues where one side is wholly right and the other is in fact wholly wrong. Such situations do exist. But it's a very difficult one to evaluate from an objective standpoint.
| 74 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:07:22am |
| 76 |
researchok Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:08:19am |
German study claims devout Islamic youth more violence-prone
The more devout a young Muslim male in Germany is, the more likely he is to resort to violence, according to a federally financed study seen Saturday by the German Press Agency dpa.The study, based on interviews with 45,000 boys and girls aged 14 to 16, also concluded that male supremacist views and a preference for violent videos and computer games link closely with mosque attendance among the young. It compared Christians and Muslims.
The as-yet-unpublished research was jointly conducted by the federal Interior Ministry and the KFN criminology research institute in Hanover headed by Christian Pfeiffer. Dpa obtained a copy in Berlin.
In a conclusion, the authors said the finding might be explained by hypotheses of Rauf Ceylan, an ethnic Turkish scholar in German who studies religion.
They said Ceylan had discovered that a majority of mosque clergy in Germany encouraged their congregations to practice a conservative form of Islam and to preserve their ethnic roots.
| 77 |
Oh no...Sand People! Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:08:45am |
Well, a nice saturday in my neck of the globe is calling.
Wish it were the same everywhere.
Later!
| 78 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:09:03am |
re: #43 Charles
Sez Rep. Jenkins:
My family and I are sick and tired of paying taxes to a government that ignores the wishes and cries of the constituent majority.
Huh? How does someone get elected to congress and still not understand how voting and elections work?
| 79 |
Oh no...Sand People! Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:09:15am |
re: #76 researchok
German study claims devout Islamic youth more violence-prone
Breaking News!: Water is wet.
/NOW I gotta go.
| 80 |
ryannon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:09:16am |
re: #73 Renaissance_Man
I have to say, as I try to educate myself on the situation with Israel and the Middle East in general, I'm having trouble finding any source of information that does not present one side as wholly right and the other as wholly wrong. There seems to be such entrenched polarity on this issue that any viewpoint that is not wholly partisan automatically becomes an apologist/sympathiser with the other.
Who knows, maybe this is one of those issues where one side is wholly right and the other is in fact wholly wrong. Such situations do exist. But it's a very difficult one to evaluate from an objective standpoint.
Relativize much?
| 81 |
Guanxi88 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:09:29am |
re: #74 MagnaniomousCoward
That that would have worked if not the nazis got there first
[Video]
Oddly enough, there's an entire UFO mythology built up around the notion that the Nazis got off-planet ages ago, and continue to visit their bases here and there. Yup, that disk at Roswell? One of the Fuhrer's.
Why we didn't keep going back to the moon? Nazi stormtroopers defending the defensive perimeter of their secret base. & etc.
| 82 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:10:25am |
re: #76 researchok
German study claims devout Islamic youth more violence-prone
Gee, I wonder if that could have anything to do with the example of their prophet?
Nah.
| 83 |
brookly red Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:10:39am |
re: #79 Oh no...Sand People!
Breaking News!: Water is wet.
/NOW I gotta go.
yes and here sit I waiting for the plumber...
| 84 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:11:02am |
re: #78 Slumbering Behemoth
Sez Rep. Jenkins:
Huh? How does someone get elected to congress and still not understand how voting and elections work?
I think it's a letter from one of her constituents.
| 85 |
Renaissance_Man Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:11:20am |
re: #80 ryannon
Relativize much?
I'm just reporting what I see as I start to look at an issue that I've never considered in any depth before, and with no ideological allegiances. If you think that makes me a relativist apologist sympathiser idiot, that's cool.
| 86 |
Cathypop Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:12:53am |
re: #83 brookly red
yes and here sit I waiting for the plumber...
I'm going to the lake in a little bit. Want me to have a beer for you?
| 88 |
Guanxi88 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:14:05am |
re: #82 Cato the Elder
Gee, I wonder if that could have anything to do with the example of their prophet?
Nah.
I've always had the greatest respect and admiration for the worldly, cultured, refined man, irrespective of religion, who can yet retain some trace of his religion. The skill and mental agility needed to maintain all these various factors in their appropriate balance - it is easier to be a snob than to be a cultured man; easier to be a fanatic than a devout man, etc., as extremism is far simpler - represents the best of which we are capable.
I recall that one of the most elegantly refined men I ever met was a Yemeni chap - an MD, from a dirt-poor family, made his fortune in Egypt, spoke six languages, recited classical arabic and persian poetry by heart, appreciated Shakespeare and Coltrane, and was an excellent judge of whiskey. Man prayed five times a day, as well, and kept it all together.
| 89 |
ryannon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:14:40am |
re: #85 Renaissance_Man
I'm just reporting what I see as I start to look at an issue that I've never considered in any depth before, and with no ideological allegiances. If you think that makes me a relativist apologist sympathiser idiot, that's cool.
Calmos. I'm just suggesting that one can always find positive or negative aspects when analyzing phenomena like this. After all, under Mussolini, Italian trains ran on time. What's important is the big picture.
| 90 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:14:58am |
re: #85 Renaissance_Man
I'm just reporting what I see as I start to look at an issue that I've never considered in any depth before, and with no ideological allegiances. If you think that makes me a relativist apologist sympathiser idiot, that's cool.
Have you tried [Link: www.memri.org?...] They translate, you decide. If that's not good enough, you have a bunch of languages to learn.
The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) explores the Middle East through the region’s media. MEMRI bridges the language gap which exists between the West and the Middle East, providing timely translations of Arabic, Persian, Urdu-Pashtu, and Turkish media, as well as original analysis of political, ideological, intellectual, social, cultural, and religious trends in the Middle East.
Founded in February 1998 to inform the debate over U.S. policy in the Middle East, MEMRI is an independent, nonpartisan, nonprofit, 501(c)3 organization. MEMRI’s headquarters is located in Washington, DC with branch offices in London, Rome, Jerusalem, Baghdad, Shanghai and Tokyo. MEMRI research is translated to English, French, Spanish, German, Italian, Polish, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, and Hebrew.
| 91 |
Tigger2005 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:15:17am |
re: #73 Renaissance_Man
I have to say, as I try to educate myself on the situation with Israel and the Middle East in general, I'm having trouble finding any source of information that does not present one side as wholly right and the other as wholly wrong. There seems to be such entrenched polarity on this issue that any viewpoint that is not wholly partisan automatically becomes an apologist/sympathiser with the other.
Who knows, maybe this is one of those issues where one side is wholly right and the other is in fact wholly wrong. Such situations do exist. But it's a very difficult one to evaluate from an objective standpoint.
Difficult to evaluate objectively? Please.
| 92 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:16:24am |
re: #43 Charles
Unbelievably pathetic.
And there's a Republican respresentative who's already outraged about it and sending a letter to President Obama demanding answers:
[Link: www.congress.org...]
lol
| 93 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:16:53am |
re: #84 wrenchwench
I think it's a letter from one of her constituents.
Ah yes, you are correct. Thanks. I guess that makes me feel a little better.
| 94 |
researchok Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:17:02am |
re: #88 Guanxi88
I've always had the greatest respect and admiration for the worldly, cultured, refined man, irrespective of religion, who can yet retain some trace of his religion. The skill and mental agility needed to maintain all these various factors in their appropriate balance - it is easier to be a snob than to be a cultured man; easier to be a fanatic than a devout man, etc., as extremism is far simpler - represents the best of which we are capable.
I recall that one of the most elegantly refined men I ever met was a Yemeni chap - an MD, from a dirt-poor family, made his fortune in Egypt, spoke six languages, recited classical arabic and persian poetry by heart, appreciated Shakespeare and Coltrane, and was an excellent judge of whiskey. Man prayed five times a day, as well, and kept it all together.
A testament to the exception and man's capacity to excel.
| 95 |
Guanxi88 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:18:33am |
re: #94 researchok
A testament to the exception and man's capacity to excel.
That's what I'm getting at - it's these exceptions - "Weeds" as al-Farabi called them, unintentional growths within a culture - that are far more valuable than the field of wheat or whatever the hell it is that each culture strives to raise.
| 96 |
Guanxi88 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:19:53am |
And with that - I'm off to hang sheetrock, scrub some dishes, and curse Helen Thomas till sundown.
| 97 |
Renaissance_Man Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:19:59am |
re: #90 wrenchwench
I would have thought that Middle Eastern media would be some of the least objective regarding this issue, but yes, I will absolutely look at that.
| 98 |
brookly red Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:23:36am |
re: #86 Cathypop
I'm going to the lake in a little bit. Want me to have a beer for you?
thank you, I have some but don't let that stop you.
| 99 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:24:09am |
re: #97 Renaissance_Man
I would have thought that Middle Eastern media would be some of the least objective regarding this issue, but yes, I will absolutely look at that.
The trick is as follows:
One side makes a claim -- immediately ask "What is their source?"
Often, much of the bias evident comes from citing sources that uncritically parrot falsehoods.
| 100 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:24:21am |
re: #97 Renaissance_Man
I think you misunderstand slightly. MEMRI just translates the crazy Middle East media so you can see what goes on unfiltered, without injecting much of any analysis of their own.
Look at all sides, then form your own opinion critically. I think what other posters reacted to was what they saw as a taste of moral equivalence adopted by some - as in, "Israel blocking cement imports is just as bad as suicide bombings". But I don't get that from your post, just an observation that it's a very polarized conflict - and that is true. You can, however, see that people on both sides are able to argue with facts and reason sometimes - you just have to listen really hard to pick them up in the noise of the radical ones.
| 101 |
celticdragon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:25:35am |
re: #1 Joo-LiZ
New York Times has a feature on the Mavi Marmara.
It is a pretty good depiction of the Israeli side of the story (Israel has done a good job getting it out), but it completely white washes the activists:
"Just becuase you wanted to flex your muscles and drag three soldiers down", my ass.
I automatically assume that the Israelis and the Islamists are both lying.
This little quote from Andrew Exum at Abu Muqawama is telling.
I met for coffee one morning with a retired Israeli general officer to discuss the fighting in southern Lebanon during the 1990s, and before too long, the two of us were engrossed in conversation about guerrilla warfare, Lebanon, the learning process that militaries go through in combat, and a host of related subjects. One hour became two, and two hours became three. The two of us must have downed three cups of coffee apiece, and my hand cramped from all the notes I was taking. At the end of the conversation, though, this retired officer took my hand, squeezed it hard, and said, "Andrew, just remember one thing: the Muslims are like shit. They stink, and there are plenty of them for all of us."
Now in 3+ years of living in the Arabic-speaking world, I have to admit I have heard some pretty horrifically anti-Semitic things said in both polite and not-so-polite conversation. But pardon me if I was a little struck by hearing this language from a retired, educated military officer rather than from, say, a taxi driver in Beirut or some 16-year old Palestinian kid who grew up in Bourj al-Barajneh. Anyway, I shook the man's hand, thanked him for his time, and went on my way shaking my head. Could I imagine a senior U.S. military officer, post-Iraq, saying something like that to a guy with a notebook at the end of a formal interview? I could not.
Don't even get me started on the USS Liberty.
As far as I am concerned, Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah and the Israeli government can all rot in Hell. They deserve each other.
I have no use for anti Arab bigots any more than I have for anti Jewish bigots.
Here are some awesome Israeli sniper tee shirts that show crosshairs on a pregnant woman's stomach. The caption says "One shot, two kills".
Here is a vile Hamas cartoon that villifies Jews.
Fuck them all.
| 102 |
tradewind Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:27:02am |
Because connections are always interesting.....
[Link: www.nypost.com...]
| 103 |
tradewind Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:28:03am |
re: #95 Guanxi88
Someone once said that a weed is merely a plant out of place.
| 104 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:28:10am |
re: #101 celticdragon
Don't even get me started on the USS Liberty.
As far as I am concerned, Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah and the Israeli government can all rot in Hell. They deserve each other.
I have no use for anti Arab bigots any more than I have for anti Jewish bigots.
Here are some awesome Israeli sniper tee shirts that show crosshairs on a pregnant woman's stomach. The caption says "One shot, two kills".
Here is a vile Hamas cartoon that villifies Jews.
[Video]Fuck them all.
Difference: The Israeli t-shirt incident caused huge uproar in Israel and the IDF cracked down on any soldiers caught wearing those shirts.
Hamas broadcasts to children for a generation, and nobody makes a peep.
| 105 |
ryannon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:28:27am |
re: #101 celticdragon
You forget the horses they rode in on.
| 107 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:31:04am |
| 108 |
Cathypop Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:31:25am |
re: #98 brookly red
thank you, I have some but don't let that stop you.
Spent my morning waiting for the air condition man. All is cool now.
| 109 |
tradewind Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:31:36am |
re: #101 celticdragon
Every investigation re the USS Liberty found that the Israelis either had no knowledge that they were attacking a US ship, or that there was certainly no evidence that they did.
The US has done the same thing, in international waters, mistakenly.
[Link: www.sixdaywar.org...]
| 110 |
celticdragon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:32:00am |
re: #104 Joo-LiZ
Difference: The Israeli t-shirt incident caused huge uproar in Israel and the IDF cracked down on any soldiers caught wearing those shirts.
Hamas broadcasts to children for a generation, and nobody makes a peep.
Indeed...but the attitude says it all. People in the IDF bought them.
The fact there was a market for the shirts in the first place speaks volumes about the willingness to kill first and yell "He/she was a terrorist!!!!" later.
And then laugh about it.
I saw the Hamas cartoon on the Daily Show with John Stewart. " Vile "doesn't really do justice to the filth that they broadcast.
| 111 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:32:18am |
re: #101 celticdragon
I also want to point out, that is the easiest position to take.
You don't want to put in the effort to distinguish between the two sides in the conflict, so you find some negatives of both and say "see, both are wrong, screw 'em all".
How courageous of you.
| 112 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:35:17am |
Six years ago today, we lost one of the greatest Americans of the 20th century ...
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
We'll never forget the Gipper. How we could use him now.
| 113 |
celticdragon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:38:05am |
re: #109 tradewind
Every investigation re the USS Liberty found that the Israelis either had no knowledge that they were attacking a US ship, or that there was certainly no evidence that they did.
The US has done the same thing, in international waters, mistakenly.
[Link: www.sixdaywar.org...]
You mean the investigation that the senior legal counsel Captain Ward Boston said was a shame, and that he and Admiral Isaac Kidd were ordered to lie about and reach a pre-ordained false conclusion by the President?
I take his word on that over that of a foreign country.
Especially since to take the initial report at face value, one would have to assume the Israelis were both blind and monumentally incompetent.
Of course, the smear merchants accused him of being senile and taking bribe money from the Saudis.
| 114 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:38:43am |
re: #97 Renaissance_Man
I would have thought that Middle Eastern media would be some of the least objective regarding this issue, but yes, I will absolutely look at that.
You still have to use your own judgment after you watch and read there. You are looking at sources which most definitely have a point of view, and you can figure out what that point of view is, and decide whether it makes sense, and whether you agree.
| 115 |
celticdragon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:39:08am |
re: #111 Joo-LiZ
I also want to point out, that is the easiest position to take.
You don't want to put in the effort to distinguish between the two sides in the conflict, so you find some negatives of both and say "see, both are wrong, screw 'em all".
How courageous of you.
That about sums it up. Likud and Hamas are a match made in hell.
| 116 |
tradewind Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:40:01am |
re: #79 Oh no...Sand People!
Here's some news.... ' devout ' as well as ' very religious ' are journo-code for ' radical terrorists' in the Europress.
| 117 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:41:28am |
re: #111 Joo-LiZ
I also want to point out, that is the easiest position to take.
You don't want to put in the effort to distinguish between the two sides in the conflict, so you find some negatives of both and say "see, both are wrong, screw 'em all".
How courageous of you.
Many years ago, someone asked me my position on Israel. I whined that it was too complicated. He said, "That's irresponsible." I took it from there.
| 118 |
The Shadow Do Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:41:55am |
re: #101 celticdragon
As far as I am concerned, Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah and the Israeli government can all rot in Hell. They deserve each other.
Interesting how quickly you lump Israel with Hamas and Hezbollah on the strength of an anecdote, but go ahead with your agitation and judge away.
| 119 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:42:20am |
Ugh. I've got chores that need doing anyhow. Later Lizards.
| 120 |
Tigger2005 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:42:42am |
re: #73 Renaissance_Man
I have to say, as I try to educate myself on the situation with Israel and the Middle East in general, I'm having trouble finding any source of information that does not present one side as wholly right and the other as wholly wrong. There seems to be such entrenched polarity on this issue that any viewpoint that is not wholly partisan automatically becomes an apologist/sympathiser with the other.
Who knows, maybe this is one of those issues where one side is wholly right and the other is in fact wholly wrong. Such situations do exist. But it's a very difficult one to evaluate from an objective standpoint.
Look. Perhaps an argument could be made that the Jews should not have gone back to Palestine. After all, the fact that their holy book says God gave it to them does not necessarily mean anything to someone who's not Jewish or Christian (or Muslim). Most of them were gone 2,000 years (although they were never completely "gone"). It wasn't the Arabs/Muslims who expelled them, it was the Romans, etc. But the fact is, they went back. They didn't invade an existing country, they didn't force anyone to leave. The land at the time was sparsely populated (most of the "Palestinians" are Egyptians and Jordanians who came looking for work) and owned by absentee Turkish landlords, and the Jews purchased much of it. They worked with world powers to seek assurances that they could eventually have a state. Eventually they got that state, and it's been recognized as such by the majority of the world. Israel exists, it's just a fact. I would say the Jews have more right to be there than Americans have to be where they are. We had no historical tie to this land, and we violently forced the existing inhabitants off the land we wanted. How about Great Britain? It's run by Anglo-Saxon invaders, shouldn't they "go back to Germany" and give the land back to the Celts?
Israel exists, and it's a democratic state, a state that recognizes religious freedom and freedom of the press, that protects the rights of women and gays, that teaches its children the same kind of Sesame Street values we teach our children, that produces scientists and doctors and inventors and artists, that produces all kinds of medical and technological marvels, that somehow manages to keep its economy moving in the face of constant terror, boycotts, etc. Is it perfect, no. No country is!
Now, look at who Israel is up against (and just on the front lines). Primarily dictatorships and monarchies and theocracies and proxy terror organizations. Sure, Hamas was "elected." It's still a terror gang, with a charter that explicitly rejects peace and calls for murdering Jews and destroying Israel. Newspaper, radio, and television in Gaza and the West Bank incite hatred toward Israel and Jews, even targeting their vile message at small children, using cute Sesame-street like characters. The Gazans had a golden opportunity to build a peaceful and productive society when Israel withdrew from the area, leaving them with infrastructure and greenhouses. Instead they elected Hamas, which devoted all resources to waging a missile and suicide bombing campaign against Israel and kidnapping an Israeli soldier.
Now, really. Is it that hard to make an objective decision about which side deserves your support? Are any mistakes or excesses on Israel's part sufficient reason to take the side of its enemies? Sure, you can offer criticism. But choose the other side over Israel?
| 121 |
alexknyc Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:42:46am |
re: #76 researchok
German study claims devout Islamic youth more violence-prone
I'll be looking next for the study to determine if water is wet.
| 122 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:43:04am |
re: #117 wrenchwench
Many years ago, someone asked me my position on Israel. I whined that it was too complicated. He said, "That's irresponsible." I took it from there.
90% of people in the West will respond that way.
I can't really say I blame them.
Half the battle (more, really) is getting the fact that it is complicated out there, so that people don't just hear "humanitarians" "peace" "Israel evil" and make assumptions.
| 123 |
tradewind Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:43:08am |
re: #45 Cato the Elder
For the same reason that the European and UK press has designated muslims ' asian '.
They feel a heavy burden of responsibility to dial down the rhetoric.//
| 124 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:45:34am |
re: #101 celticdragon
Don't even get me started on the USS Liberty.
If you have the sense that God gave geese, you'll stick to that resolution and not get started. Because it's a fucking canard, and now I know what camp you belong to.
Bugger off.
| 125 |
tradewind Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:45:35am |
re: #113 celticdragon
Always risky to use Wiki to support that kind of thing.
No, I don't mean the results of one man's prejudice against Israel, I mean the official investigations that were convened.
| 126 |
tradewind Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:46:40am |
re: #119 Slumbering Behemoth
I have to go get the oil changed in my car..... I'd pay money not to have to do it./
| 127 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:46:55am |
re: #113 celticdragon
He also cited a link that summarizes more than one investigation -- something like 6 different ones over 2.5 decades following, by different organizations.
| 128 |
Spare O'Lake Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:47:29am |
Well, lucky for all concerned that the assholes on the Rachel Corrie were at least saner than the crazed Islamofascist crud on the Turk-backed terrorist fuckwad flotilla.
| 129 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:48:38am |
re: #128 Spare O'Lake
Well, lucky for all concerned that the assholes on the Rachel Corrie were at least saner than the crazed Islamofascist crud on the Turk-backed terrorist fuckwad flotilla.
Netanyahu was quick to comment:
"Today we saw the difference between a peace flotilla, that we disagree with the activists' views but respect their right to express themselves, and a hate flotilla which was organized by violent radicals who support terrorism," Netanyahu said."In both instances Israel behaved exactly the same way to enforce the blockade on Gaza, aimed to prevent weapons' smuggling to the Hamas and to enable civilian goods to enter Gaza after inspection," Netanyahu said.
| 130 |
alexknyc Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:48:51am |
re: #110 celticdragon
Indeed...but the attitude says it all. People in the IDF bought them.
The fact there was a market for the shirts in the first place speaks volumes about the willingness to kill first and yell "He/she was a terrorist!!!" later.
And then laugh about it.
I saw the Hamas cartoon on the Daily Show with John Stewart. " Vile "doesn't really do justice to the filth that they broadcast.
Individual lunatics vs. government-sponsored insanity.
Your relativism is showing.
| 131 |
celticdragon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:49:29am |
re: #118 The Shadow Do
Interesting how quickly you lump Israel with Hamas and Hezbollah on the strength of an anecdote, but go ahead with your agitation and judge away.
I could also mention that Wall that separates Arabs(both Muslim and Christian) from their lawful property and business, the never ending Settlements on Arab land, the uninvestigated massive civilian casualties in 2009 in Gaza, the blockade of not just weapons (which would be entirely reasonable) but of repair supplies, fishing equipment etc etc etc, and what looks to me and many others like the intentional infliction of misery and suffering on all Palestinians simply for revenge.
I get revenge. really. I can empathize with the need to strike back after your kid gets blown up on a bus by a fucking suicide bomber wacko who thinks he gets 72 virgins to screw in the afterlife for killing Jews.
I would want some payback too.
But don't pretend that it is moral, or that the Jewish State is being protected. This is about wasting some "Muslim shit" and making them pay for electing Hamas, while not killing so many that you actually force the US to officially take notice.
| 132 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:51:32am |
re: #131 celticdragon
Oh boy,
I see you need an education. ALL of these points have been much discussed on LGF.
Do a search for "Israel" and read the truth.
| 134 |
Renaissance_Man Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:51:59am |
re: #120 Tigger2005
That's a nice essay, and I'm not going to disagree, but I didn't say I was having trouble picking a side. I just said it was difficult to evaluate the situation objectively considering the emotionally polarised nature of the issue.
It's a complex issue. If I feel a complex issue is worth learning about, I'm going to take it cautiously and analytically. Taking that approach does not mean I have picked the other side.
| 135 |
celticdragon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:52:39am |
re: #132 Joo-LiZ
Oh boy,
I see you need an education. ALL of these points have been much discussed on LGF.Do a search for "Israel" and read the truth.
Yep. The troof will come out.
Either the pilots were blind and stupid, or they were not.
That was sure hard.
| 136 |
tradewind Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:52:50am |
re: #113 celticdragon
C.I.A. report June 13, 1967: No malice; attack a mistake.
U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry June 18, 1967 Mistaken identity
Report by Clark Clifford July 18, 1967: No evidence ship was known to be American.
Senate Select Committee on Intelligence 1979/1981: No merit to claims attack was intentional.
National Security Agency 1981: Mistaken identity
House Armed Services Committee 1991/1992: No support for claims attack was intentional
vs.
(senile guy bribed by Saudis)
| 137 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:54:06am |
re: #133 celticdragon
If you support a foreign military over our Navy, I know what to make of you as well.
Traitorous fuck.
If you're trying to get your ass banned from LGF, you've made a good start.
| 138 |
alexknyc Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:54:23am |
re: #136 tradewind
C.I.A. report June 13, 1967: No malice; attack a mistake.
U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry June 18, 1967 Mistaken identity
Report by Clark Clifford July 18, 1967: No evidence ship was known to be American.
Senate Select Committee on Intelligence 1979/1981: No merit to claims attack was intentional.
National Security Agency 1981: Mistaken identity
House Armed Services Committee 1991/1992: No support for claims attack was intentional
vs.
(senile guy bribed by Saudis)
More evidence (as if it were needed) that critics of Israel are rarely bothered by actual facts.
| 139 |
celticdragon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:54:32am |
re: #127 Joo-LiZ
He also cited a link that summarizes more than one investigation -- something like 6 different ones over 2.5 decades following, by different organizations.
The official Naval Investigation was tampered with. The senior legal counsel admitted it in testimony to the State Department.
That says quite enough.
| 140 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:54:48am |
re: #134 Renaissance_Man
That's a nice essay, and I'm not going to disagree, but I didn't say I was having trouble picking a side. I just said it was difficult to evaluate the situation objectively considering the emotionally polarised nature of the issue.
It's a complex issue. If I feel a complex issue is worth learning about, I'm going to take it cautiously and analytically. Taking that approach does not mean I have picked the other side.
P.S.
I dunno if it's been said in this thread.
*Much respect for your approach*
| 141 |
celticdragon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:55:03am |
re: #137 Charles
If you're trying to get your ass banned from LGF, you've made a good start.
Not particularly, but I shall ignore cato from here out.
| 142 |
The Shadow Do Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:55:18am |
re: #131 celticdragon
I could also mention that Wall that separates Arabs(both Muslim and Christian) from their lawful property and business, the never ending Settlements on Arab land, the uninvestigated massive civilian casualties in 2009 in Gaza, the blockade of not just weapons (which would be entirely reasonable) but of repair supplies, fishing equipment etc etc etc, and what looks to me and many others like the intentional infliction of misery and suffering on all Palestinians simply for revenge.
I get revenge. really. I can empathize with the need to strike back after your kid gets blown up on a bus by a fucking suicide bomber wacko who thinks he gets 72 virgins to screw in the afterlife for killing Jews.
I would want some payback too.
But don't pretend that it is moral, or that the Jewish State is being protected. This is about wasting some "Muslim shit" and making them pay for electing Hamas, while not killing so many that you actually force the US to officially take notice.
Not a reply, just wanted to repost your ignorance and jew hate.
| 143 |
alexknyc Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:56:02am |
re: #139 celticdragon
The official Naval Investigation was tampered with. The senior legal counsel admitted it in testimony to the State Department.
That says quite enough.
Saudi money would certainly be tampering.
| 144 |
celticdragon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:56:36am |
re: #142 The Shadow Do
Not a reply, just wanted to repost your ignorance and jew hate.
That isn't even worth replying to. Despicable.
| 145 |
tradewind Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:56:49am |
re: #138 alexknyc
...and PIMF, you might know I'd forget to bold the Navy report that cleared them, ( second in the list) , since CD used ' our own Navy ' as his ' proof '.
| 146 |
Tigger2005 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:57:00am |
Celticdragon, you might as well say, "Fuck America, fuck the world." Throw in the towel. Become a nihilist.
I mean, how were we better than Nazi Germany? How was France or Great Britain? We didn't lift a finger to help Jews trying to escape from Germany. Many French even helped the Gestapo round up French Jews. Oh, and while America was cheering on ol' Jesse Owens as an example of how enlightened we were over those Nazi "pure Aryan" racists and bigots, we were forcing blacks to live separate, eat separate, drink separate, denying them jobs, housing, business loans, and so on. And oh, during the war, we called Germans "Krauts" and Japanese "Japs" and Italians "Kikes." And so on.
But would you rather live in a world where Nazi Germany and Japan won the war? Our black population didn't want to. Our Japanese population didn't want to, even after being unjustly placed in interment camps. And the German people themselves much preferred to throw themselves on the mercy of U.S., British, and French soldiers then find themselves under the thumb of another totalitarian state (Soviet Union).
Free societies aren't perfect, celticdragon. They aren't supposed to be. But they are always better than the alternative. Try reading some Orwell on the subject.
| 147 |
alexknyc Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:57:09am |
re: #144 celticdragon
That isn't even worth replying to. Despicable.
And yet you did.
There seems to be more going on here than it appears at the surface.
| 148 |
celticdragon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:57:25am |
I'm out. I'll stay away from this topic since we are not going to agree and the emotions are high.
| 149 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:58:22am |
re: #148 celticdragon
I'm out. I'll stay away from this topic since we are not going to agree and the emotions are high.
I want to say "Smart" -- but you're clearly not.
Hmm.
| 150 |
Spare O'Lake Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:58:23am |
re: #131 celticdragon
I could also mention that Wall that separates Arabs(both Muslim and Christian) from their lawful property and business, the never ending Settlements on Arab land, the uninvestigated massive civilian casualties in 2009 in Gaza, the blockade of not just weapons (which would be entirely reasonable) but of repair supplies, fishing equipment etc etc etc, and what looks to me and many others like the intentional infliction of misery and suffering on all Palestinians simply for revenge.
I get revenge. really. I can empathize with the need to strike back after your kid gets blown up on a bus by a fucking suicide bomber wacko who thinks he gets 72 virgins to screw in the afterlife for killing Jews.
I would want some payback too.
But don't pretend that it is moral, or that the Jewish State is being protected. This is about wasting some "Muslim shit" and making them pay for electing Hamas, while not killing so many that you actually force the US to officially take notice.
You are obviously confusing the inhuman stench of your own moral vacuity with the reality of the just and noble Israeli position.
| 151 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:58:33am |
re: #139 celticdragon
The official Naval Investigation was tampered with.
Conspiracy! There are also architects who believe the 9-11 investigation was a fraud.. Kennedy assassination and moon landing too. Just because you can find someone who claims a coverup doesn't make it so. Relying on a conspiracy theory doesn't help you debate facts.
| 153 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jun 5, 2010 11:59:37am |
re: #144 celticdragon
That isn't even worth replying to. Despicable.
He's despicable? He's not accusing Israel of revenge.
Good riddance.
| 155 |
tradewind Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:01:05pm |
re: #128 Spare O'Lake
I wouldn't go as far as crediting sanity.... I think it's proof that when it comes to dealing with sworn enemies who wish you didn't exist, fear and respect for your strength trump kumbaya every time.
| 156 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:01:57pm |
re: #154 Cato the Elder
LOL.
Ram your cartoon AK-47 up your ass, sideways, then reach up there and pull the trigger.
Yea! What's up with that? Good grief.
| 158 |
The Shadow Do Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:03:19pm |
*draws open blinds on a bright and sunny day*
What is that scurrying away?
| 159 |
Ericus58 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:03:40pm |
I like my avatar.... really, who could disagree?!
| 161 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:04:18pm |
re: #159 Ericus58
I like my avatar... really, who could disagree?!
Lol, nice. Is that real photo or digital?
| 162 |
Spare O'Lake Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:04:48pm |
re: #155 tradewind
I wouldn't go as far as crediting sanity... I think it's proof that when it comes to dealing with sworn enemies who wish you didn't exist, fear and respect for your strength trump kumbaya every time.
The Islamofascist death wish was apparently absent from the Rachel Corrie.
| 163 |
Ericus58 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:05:49pm |
re: #161 Joo-LiZ
Lol, nice. Is that real photo or digital?
It's a real photo - the dear model is unknown to me.
If I could paint nose art on something - this would be it.
| 164 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:06:53pm |
re: #160 Joo-LiZ
I know you like to like to have "fun" with sarcastic "cyberviolence" which is ultimately harmless. But it really makes you look bad.
In my most humble opinion, he deserved it.
And speaking of cyberviolence, did ya see the icon?
| 165 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:07:06pm |
re: #160 Joo-LiZ
I know you like to like to have "fun" with sarcastic "cyberviolence" which is ultimately harmless. But it really makes you look bad.
In that case, may I just tell Celticdragon to enjoy his fantasy gun and grrrl anyway he likes? I wish him all the pleasure that macho cartoon sex can provide.
| 166 |
Tigger2005 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:07:10pm |
re: #152 Joo-LiZ
Thanks.
That was great.
I should have said, "Try reading some Orwell on the subject. You are exactly the kind of person he was trying to reach."
| 167 |
Ericus58 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:09:00pm |
Interesting post you put up on the possibility of the Turkish PM and/or their Navy escorting a group of blockade running ships, Joo-LiZ.
That is a very worrisome scenario. One the I would not want to contend with.
| 168 |
Racer X Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:09:50pm |
I gotta say, the past week has been telling. Charles has always been a staunch defender of Israel - and I applaud you for that sir.
Some of the newer Lizards have shown their true colors and it is not pretty.
| 169 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:09:55pm |
re: #166 Tigger2005
I should have said, "Try reading some Orwell on the subject. You are exactly the kind of person he was trying to reach."
Speaking of which, do you have any recommendations of a specific Orwell book?
re: #164 marjoriemoon
I missed the connection with the icon.
re: #165 Cato the Elder
You can do what you like, I'm responding more to some things you said yesterday not just now. It gets to a point with you when the other person is obviously dense and you switch into "let's make 'em mad" mode.
It's unbecoming, as much as you make great arguments when debating with people seriously.
| 170 |
TampaKnight Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:10:17pm |
Good God- anyone seen Food Inc.? It's hard to eat afterwards.
| 171 |
tradewind Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:11:37pm |
re: #162 Spare O'Lake
Thank heavens.
This is going to really foul the waters...
Now the Turkish president says he's thinking about taking a sea voyage.
Ugh.
[Link: www.heraldsun.com.au...]
| 172 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:12:03pm |
re: #167 Ericus58
Interesting post you put up on the possibility of the Turkish PM and/or their Navy escorting a group of blockade running ships, Joo-LiZ.
That is a very worrisome scenario. One the I would not want to contend with.
DEBKA also is pointing it out, along with Michael Totten, citing YNet, citing a Lebanese paper:
DEBKA:
Turkish security sources quoted Prime Minister Recep Erdogan as preparing to go beyond abusive rhetoric against Israel and considering using his navy to break Israel's siege of Gaza - or even sailing aboard the next flotilla to break the blockade in person on the assumption that Israel would not dare stop him.
According to debkafile's sources in Ankara, the Obama administration is in contact with the Turkish PM and trying to cool him down.
| 173 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:12:51pm |
re: #171 tradewind
Thank heavens.
This is going to really foul the waters...
Now the Turkish president says he's thinking about taking a sea voyage.
Ugh.
[Link: www.heraldsun.com.au...]
It's hard to say if it is just bluster or not though.
He was "considering" sending the Turkish Navy along with the Rachel Corrie, and that never happened.
| 174 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:12:56pm |
Another key difference between today's boarding and last week's....
Radio Exchange Between Israeli Navy and 7th Flotilla Ship Regarding Transfer of Aid to Gaza, 5 June 2010
7th Flotilla Ship: The Irish government, I think, had been in talks with the Israeli government seeking safe passage for this ship into Gaza and I think that the best compromise that they could come to was to send this aid to Ashdod. We are further asking to let this ship go to Gaza, over.Israeli Navy: I’m still hoping we can take this a step ahead and reach a solution.
7th Flotilla Ship: I do too, over.
No mentions of 9-11 or Auschwitz.
| 175 |
Tigger2005 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:13:01pm |
re: #169 Joo-LiZ
Speaking of which, do you have any recommendations of a specific Orwell book?.
Well, Animal Farm, of course, but most of what I know of his opinions regarding fascists, totalitarians, pacifists, "useful idiots" etc. comes from reading pieces of his writing or quotes here and there. I do need to make a more thorough study of his work.
| 176 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:13:59pm |
re: #148 celticdragon
I'm out. I'll stay away from this topic since we are not going to agree and the emotions are high.
Your emotions are indeed high.
Try reading a bit, and get some facts.
Then you won't have to rely on emotions.
| 177 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:14:33pm |
re: #169 Joo-LiZ
You can do what you like, I'm responding more to some things you said yesterday not just now. It gets to a point with you when the other person is obviously dense and you switch into "let's make 'em mad" mode.
It's unbecoming, as much as you make great arguments when debating with people seriously.
Some people are able to debate, others just troll the same talking points over and over again. When someone's opening gambit is the USS "Liberty", followed by claims that the civilian deaths in Gaza went uninvestigated, all that remains is scorn.
| 178 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:14:43pm |
re: #175 Tigger2005
Well, Animal Farm, of course, but most of what I know of his opinions regarding fascists, totalitarians, pacifists, "useful idiots" etc. comes from reading pieces of his writing or quotes here and there. I do need to make a more thorough study of his work.
I know he's written a couple of great fictions for analysis on the geo-political situations. I was wondering if he'd ever written anything directly on politics though.
| 179 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:16:20pm |
re: #178 Joo-LiZ
He wrote non-fiction essays too.
| 180 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:16:45pm |
re: #177 Cato the Elder
Not gonna argue with you about it.
I think ignoring the trolls is the best tactic, but you can respond to them however you like. I just wanted to point out that it doesn't look good. Obviously you don't care how it "looks", and that's your prerogative
| 181 |
TampaKnight Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:18:00pm |
FYI- looks like an intelligence office holdover from the Bush admin. is going to become the next Director of National Intelligence.
Interesting considering he helped shape the intelligence for the Iraq war that Obama has firmly opposed and decried.
| 182 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:18:18pm |
re: #18 Joo-LiZ
Imagine if that had tried to remove pictures of his children from his wallet?
Sheesh!
i think his kids are adorable ...
| 183 |
tradewind Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:18:31pm |
re: #27 TampaKnight
Just put her on the next blockade runner, and hold the dramamine./
| 184 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:19:03pm |
re: #182 _RememberTonyC
The left one looks a bit like Phil Collins.
| 185 |
tradewind Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:19:19pm |
re: #173 Joo-LiZ
This is one instance where POTUS should be on the hotline with strongly worded suggestions.
| 186 |
subsailor68 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:19:22pm |
re: #178 Joo-LiZ
I know he's written a couple of great fictions for analysis on the geo-political situations. I was wondering if he'd ever written anything directly on politics though.
Hi Joo-Liz! This wiki bio isn't too bad for a short read, and may give ya some ideas on which works you might like to read. Hope it helps!
| 187 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:19:47pm |
re: #177 Cato the Elder
Some people are able to debate, others just troll the same talking points over and over again. When someone's opening gambit is the USS "Liberty", followed by claims that the civilian deaths in Gaza went uninvestigated, all that remains is scorn.
Scorn, yes, but seeing the kind of comment I see in #154 makes me wish I could unread it, and if I wish to avoid that, then I have to scroll over your other posts, and I don't want to do that.
| 188 |
tradewind Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:20:58pm |
re: #176 reine.de.tout
I +'d him for choosing the wiser course and withdrawing.
| 189 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:22:37pm |
Thanos has posted the full unedited audio recording of the exchange on Monday in which the ships said "Go back to Aushwitz". etc.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 190 |
tradewind Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:23:15pm |
re: #181 TampaKnight
for the Iraq war that Obama hasfirmly opposed and decried.basically continued in the same vein.
FTFY.
| 192 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:24:49pm |
re: #187 wrenchwench
Scorn, yes, but seeing the kind of comment I see in #154 makes me wish I could unread it, and if I wish to avoid that, then I have to scroll over your other posts, and I don't want to do that.
Not my style, but I'm far more insulted at the one who seems to be masquerading as a peace lover.
| 193 |
TampaKnight Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:24:51pm |
re: #190 tradewind
FTFY.
He's basically continuing the wind down that Bush initiated.
I'd disagree with you.
| 194 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:25:40pm |
re: #172 Joo-LiZ
OK erdogan .... and we'll arm the Kurds who yearn for a better life instead of living under your islamist thumb.
| 195 |
pingjockey Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:27:07pm |
Gaaah! Murray and Cantwell here in WA state have their mugs on a clean energy commercial. Hah. You can't build new hydropower dams, same with reactors, wind farms, etc...Too many NIMBYS. Reduce our oil comsuption by 50%. Riiight. And if the guy in the commercial is in the Nat'l Guard, he's breaking the UCMJ by making a political commercial.
| 197 |
researchok Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:29:48pm |
| 198 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:30:11pm |
re: #192 marjoriemoon
Not my style, but I'm far more insulted at the one who seems to be masquerading as a peace lover.
Oh, me too. The stuff celticdragon posts makes me mad, and I agree she deserves scorn, but I'm just kinda squeamish when it comes to whatever you want to call Cato's kind of scorn. I agree with it, kind of, but I don't want to read it. I might even be hypocritical that way, but I think it's just squeamishness.
| 200 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:32:42pm |
I had no idea "Celticdragon" was a she.
| 202 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:34:28pm |
re: #200 Cato the Elder
IIRC, transgendered.
| 203 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:35:26pm |
| 204 |
researchok Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:36:58pm |
One more:
NSA release of USS Liberty tapes.
None of this will change the attempts by the history revisionists to rewrite events but these are resources they cannot refute- hence the conspiracy and cover up meme.
| 205 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:37:24pm |
re: #32 Killgore Trout
libertypatriotrepublicofamericanfreedom dot com
| 206 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:37:43pm |
re: #203 Killgore Trout
Photos of Passengers Disembarking from Ship at Ashdod Port, 5 June 2010
THOSE EVIL ISRAELIS!
HOW DARE THEY HELP THAT HUMANITARIAN ACTIVIST DOWN THE RAMP!!
/
P.S. How long before someone at HuffPo or DailyKos comment on the "masked" Israelis and compare them with Hamas?
| 207 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:38:03pm |
re: #204 researchok
One more:
NSA release of USS Liberty tapes.
None of this will change the attempts by the history revisionists to rewrite events but these are resources they cannot refute- hence the conspiracy and cover up meme.
Conspiracy! Coverup! Aiyeeeeee!
/
| 208 |
celticdragon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:38:33pm |
I sent an apology to Charles, and I owe one to Cato as well
I am truly sorry for what I said to you. I was angry, and my reply was over the line.
| 209 |
researchok Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:39:56pm |
re: #207 Killgore Trout
Conspiracy! Coverup! Aiyeee!
/
As far as conspiracies go, this is in the Roswell category.
| 210 |
alexknyc Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:40:37pm |
| 211 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:40:45pm |
I see a certain "Dummnutzer" takes exception to my pointing out that the one Facebook friend who ditched me following my negative comment about the "Rachel Corrie" charade is from Germany.
Dude, I lived in Germany for ten years, and I know Germans of all stripes. I'm not making a general observations about Germans.
But there is a certain class of young German leftists who enjoy the opportunity to get their Jew-hate on, using Israel's perceived crimes against the Palestinians as a fig-leaf.
| 212 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:41:28pm |
re: #211 Cato the Elder
Was this a real friend or just a Facebook friend?
| 213 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:41:40pm |
re: #208 celticdragon
I sent an apology to Charles, and I owe one to Cato as well
I am truly sorry for what I said to you. I was angry, and my reply was over the line.
| 214 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:41:42pm |
re: #208 celticdragon
I sent an apology to Charles, and I owe one to Cato as well
I am truly sorry for what I said to you. I was angry, and my reply was over the line.
And I apologize for my reaction.
| 215 |
swamprat Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:41:49pm |
re: #208 celticdragon
Not all that is written is true.
Add also;
Common knowledge isn't.
| 216 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:42:29pm |
re: #212 JasonA
Was this a real friend or just a Facebook friend?
A real one. But not someone I am in regular contact with, via Facebook or otherwise.
| 217 |
freetoken Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:42:36pm |
| 218 |
alexknyc Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:42:53pm |
re: #212 JasonA
Was this a real friend or just a Facebook friend?
I can't speak for Cato but for me, there is no distinction.
If I don't know you IRL, you're not friended on Facebook.
| 220 |
researchok Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:43:24pm |
re: #217 freetoken
In other news:
Fidel Castro claims US sank South Korean ship
When it rains... it pours...
He's stomping his feet. He misses the attention.
| 221 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:43:50pm |
re: #216 Cato the Elder
Ah. Well at least it wasn't someone that close.
| 222 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:44:10pm |
| 223 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:44:10pm |
White House encourages Gaza-bound ship to dock in Israel
Outrageous outrage!
| 224 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:44:23pm |
re: #218 alexknyc
I can't speak for Cato but for me, there is no distinction.
If I don't know you IRL, you're not friended on Facebook.
this facebook thing, i've heard of it, it's like a bunch of hardbound mugshots right
| 225 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:45:00pm |
re: #222 JasonA
Watch where you put your hands...
Next you're going to tell me to put on pants. You're not the boss of me!
| 226 |
alexknyc Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:45:10pm |
re: #217 freetoken
In other news:
Fidel Castro claims US sank South Korean ship
When it rains... it pours...
I'd say he's been affected by the surgery, but he was this big a kook beforehand as well.
| 227 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:46:29pm |
re: #223 Killgore Trout
White House encourages Gaza-bound ship to dock in Israel
Outrageous outrage!
is anyone really making a big deal about that?
| 228 |
celticdragon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:46:39pm |
re: #214 Cato the Elder
And I apologize for my reaction.
Forgiven, forgotten.
My opinions on this topic are not near as valuable as the feelings of others here and sense of community we all share. I forgot that for a moment. I ask all of you for your forgiveness also.
| 229 |
freetoken Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:46:47pm |
re: #220 researchok
He's stomping his feet. He misses the attention.
In other words, it's Lil' Kim vs. Fidel in competition to get attention from the US and the world.
| 230 |
alexknyc Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:47:17pm |
re: #224 WindUpBird
this facebook thing, i've heard of it, it's like a bunch of hardbound mugshots right
I think it's a fantastic way to reconnect with people you've lost track of over the years and to keep in touch with people you don't get to see often.
| 231 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:48:31pm |
re: #230 alexknyc
I think it's a fantastic way to reconnect with people you've lost track of over the years and to keep in touch with people you don't get to see often.
And I have several "Facebook-only" friends as well as real-lifers. Usually met via other, real-life Facebookers.
| 232 |
samsgran1948 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:48:44pm |
re: #88 Guanxi88
I've always had the greatest respect and admiration for the worldly, cultured, refined man, irrespective of religion, who can yet retain some trace of his religion. The skill and mental agility needed to maintain all these various factors in their appropriate balance - it is easier to be a snob than to be a cultured man; easier to be a fanatic than a devout man, etc., as extremism is far simpler - represents the best of which we are capable.
I recall that one of the most elegantly refined men I ever met was a Yemeni chap - an MD, from a dirt-poor family, made his fortune in Egypt, spoke six languages, recited classical arabic and persian poetry by heart, appreciated Shakespeare and Coltrane, and was an excellent judge of whiskey. Man prayed five times a day, as well, and kept it all together.
I'd really like to meet this guy.
| 233 |
freetoken Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:49:34pm |
In another chronically problematic issue:
5th government in 3 years (according to Reuters, though I think it is really 4 years). The Japanese don't seem understand how a leader has to withstand low public opinion in a Democracy, or else governance will spend all the time in dither mode.
| 234 |
celticdragon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:49:51pm |
I'm off to play 40K, so good weekend to all and see you tommorrow.
:)
| 235 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:50:25pm |
*sigh*
Hundreds of protesters head to Yonge-Dundas Square (Toronto)
After spending a tense two hours on Bloor Street, the crowd marched down University Avenue onto Yonge-Dundas Square to continue their protest. Toronto police followed closely behind to monitor the situation.
At first, both supporters of Israel and those who have condemned the Middle-Eastern state for using force against those aboard the flotilla, gathered on Bloor St.
The two sides, were separated by the roadway and an army of police officers trying to keep the peace.
CP24 Reporter Farah Nasser, who was at the scene, said the tension between the two groups was palpaple, as they each shouted at each other from their respective side of the street.
I wish I was still in Toronto.
| 236 |
researchok Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:50:29pm |
re: #229 freetoken
In other words, it's Lil' Kim vs. Fidel in competition to get attention from the US and the world.
Pretty much.
Not exactly a surprise, though.
| 237 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:50:53pm |
re: #230 alexknyc
I think it's a fantastic way to reconnect with people you've lost track of over the years and to keep in touch with people you don't get to see often.
Yeah, but I haven't really lost track with anyone that I want to see again. :D Facebook isn't aimed at the hyper-dork demographic.
My fear is a bunch of people from high school who I have absolutely nothing in common with, will show up on my FB and go HAY REMEMBER ME WE WERE In 4th PERIOD JOURNALISM and I'll just bury my face in my hands and weep bitter tears over how dumb they were.
I like creating my own internet sphere of social interaction with friends who really "get me", something about having my real name attached to a thing on the internet like that, just sorta gives me the willies. o_o
| 238 |
researchok Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:51:08pm |
re: #233 freetoken
In another chronically problematic issue:
5th government in 3 years (according to Reuters, though I think it is really 4 years). The Japanese don't seem understand how a leader has to withstand low public opinion in a Democracy, or else governance will spend all the time in dither mode.
Italy of the Orient.
| 239 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:52:02pm |
Any tweeters know if there is a way to search for a relevant twitter feed?
i.e. if there is a hashtag for the rally I linked above, how would I find the hashtag they are using?
| 240 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:53:17pm |
re: #239 Joo-LiZ
Any tweeters know if there is a way to search for a relevant twitter feed?
i.e. if there is a hashtag for the rally I linked above, how would I find the hashtag they are using?
You sorta have to guess with the hashtags, there's sites that compile them, but I don't know that it's really a proper system.
Then again, I use my Twitter mostly to be a nerd, and not for news...
| 241 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:55:30pm |
re: #233 freetoken
I've actually taken a university course about Japanese politics. I think one of the problems there is that prime ministers, as are their CEO's often, quickly replaced frontmen without much individuality. I don't mean puppets, but sort of the guy who has to go out and tell everyone what the old boys have decided. Koizumi was a breath of fresh air in that respect, and maybe this new guy will stand out as well? We'll see.
| 242 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:56:59pm |
re: #238 researchok
The comparison with Italy is actually pretty apt when it comes to geography and stuff like that, but I wouldn't compare their political systems much beyond that they are parliamentary democracies.
| 244 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jun 5, 2010 12:59:23pm |
| 245 |
freetoken Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:00:03pm |
re: #241 MagnaniomousCoward
Well, that would probably be the traditional understanding of Japanese politics and not one I am going to dispute.
Yet, I gather from my Japanese friends, both when I was there and now via email, that a very widespread lament has sunken into the populace - as a friend of mine put it "When will Japan be strong again?"
I'm not very optimistic that the Japanese will avoid some very bad times ahead as it becomes evident that a very old nation with a birth rate at about 1/2 of what is needed for replacement can ever be "strong again."
| 246 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:00:08pm |
| 247 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:01:32pm |
re: #168 Racer X
I gotta say, the past week has been telling. Charles has always been a staunch defender of Israel - and I applaud you for that sir.
Some of the newer Lizards have shown their true colors and it is not pretty.
Aside from the obvious trolls, none of the 'newer lizards' have shown anything outrageous or ugly. At the worst, you could call some of them somewhat naive.
| 248 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:01:51pm |
re: #247 Obdicut
Oh. And Cordell. He's acting ugly. But he always did.
| 249 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:02:24pm |
re: #247 Obdicut
Aside from the obvious trolls, none of the 'newer lizards' have shown anything outrageous or ugly. At the worst, you could call some of them somewhat naive.
Which I actually love about LGF -- when the naive/ignorant encounter the facts and are able to see things from the other perspective.
It's the tools that are frustrating.
| 250 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:02:50pm |
re: #247 Obdicut
Many of the names in the bottom 10, I don't know who they are.
| 251 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:02:57pm |
re: #245 freetoken
Plus, their culture is still in many ways a caste system that chokes off many avenues of innovation.
The burakumin are still a subclass.
| 252 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:03:18pm |
re: #227 Joo-LiZ
is anyone really making a big deal about that?
Not that I've noticed but the Wingnuts are still trying to paint Obama as weak on Israel.
| 253 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:05:58pm |
re: #252 Killgore Trout
Not that I've noticed but the Wingnuts are still trying to paint Obama as weak on Israel.
I think he's weak on the Middle East in general. I don't think he's insidious/evil. Just not using the right approach.
| 254 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:06:14pm |
re: #252 Killgore Trout
We've come full circle here. First this was a hate site against Islam. Then we were liberal. What are we now?
/actually, a bike site.
| 255 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:06:46pm |
re: #252 Killgore Trout
Not that I've noticed but the Wingnuts are still trying to paint Obama as weak on Israel.
Heh. Moonbats think he's weak on Israel, too, from a certain point of view...
| 256 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:08:21pm |
re: #245 freetoken
I'd like to ask what he means by that, but yes Japan faces a significant demographic crunch when it comes to pensions and care for the elderly for example. This is why domestic robotics is so big in Japan. One part of the problem is that people wait so long until getting children.
I don't think Japan is going to turn into some deranged imperialist Geneva Convention-violating crazies again, but I think it might be time for them to declare job well done on apologizing for WWII and put it behind them - which would be augmented by not embracing the old war criminals either.
Also Japan is building a pirate-fighting navy base in Djibouti, which would have been unthinkable just a few years ago.
As for the strength of the economy, Japan is pretty co-dependent on the rest of Asia, but it has to do something to keep its industries competitive.
| 257 |
freetoken Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:10:52pm |
re: #256 MagnaniomousCoward
It was a she, and given her earlier statements about seeing all the foreigners (speaking of other Asians, not Americans) in Japan, I didn't want to dig too deeply. She's a friend of mine and has been for years, but she does exhibit some old-fashioned Japanese-ness...
| 258 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:11:59pm |
re: #249 Joo-LiZ
Which I actually love about LGF -- when the naive/ignorant encounter the facts and are able to see things from the other perspective.
It's the tools that are frustrating.
And the ones who cling to their naivety with all the tenacity of religious belief.
| 259 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:14:10pm |
re: #257 freetoken
Japan could solve their demographic crisis by massive immigration, but yeah they're worried about the social problems that may cause, and they're pretty crowded already.
In some ways, Japan might be a good laboratory for how we'll keep society running when the entire world reaches a low fertility rate and comfortable living. Better get to work on those robot servants, guys.
| 260 |
freetoken Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:14:13pm |
And speaking of old-fashioned Japanese:
Dolphin hunt film screening cancelled
Screenings of The Cove, an Oscar-winning documentary about an annual dolphin hunt have been cancelled in Tokyo. Planned protests by conservatives who say the film is anti-Japanese have lead the movie showings to be cancelled.
| 261 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:15:02pm |
re: #254 Cannadian Club Akbar
We've come full circle here. First this was a hate site against Islam. Then we were liberal. What are we now?
/actually, a bike site.
Get that sarc tag off of there!
| 262 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:15:23pm |
LGF. The competent use of common sense.
| 263 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:15:56pm |
re: #257 freetoken
Alternatively she could get married and get a huge family going. That would help, no?
| 264 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:16:01pm |
I'd be more than happy to help Japan with its low birth-rate problem...
| 265 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:16:51pm |
| 266 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:17:22pm |
re: #262 Cannadian Club Akbar
Well, let's not become self-congratulatory. That's bad too. I heard a funny book title once: "The Vision of the Anointed: Self-Congratulation as a Basis for Social Policy"; I don't know if the book itself is good.
| 267 |
freetoken Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:17:53pm |
re: #263 MagnaniomousCoward
Long sad story there... but her current boyfriend has cancer... and she is getting to the age where starting a family is slipping past.
| 268 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:18:03pm |
re: #264 JasonA
I have some friends and acquaintances who are aiming for the same thing - some of them are actually in Japan and working on it right now.
| 269 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:18:49pm |
re: #267 freetoken
Oh darn. Sorry about being unintentionally insensitive.
| 270 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:19:25pm |
re: #266 MagnaniomousCoward
Well, let's not become self-congratulatory. That's bad too. I heard a funny book title once: "The Vision of the Anointed: Self-Congratulation as a Basis for Social Policy"; I don't know if the book itself is good.
Its author probably thinks it is.
| 271 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:19:41pm |
re: #268 MagnaniomousCoward
I have some friends and acquaintances who are aiming for the same thing - some of them are actually in Japan and working on it right now.
Can we call it "humanitarian aid?"
| 272 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:20:53pm |
Alright, I've officially killed a good 3-4 hours here... and it's super quiet too.
I'm out for a while.
| 273 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:21:09pm |
re: #271 JasonA
Yeah, I can't think of anything more humanitarian than babies.
| 274 |
Mark Pennington Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:21:52pm |
re: #26 TampaKnight
Just checked the HuffPo: the leftist hate of Israel continues.
I have noticed some people(liberals and moderates) who usually post here have been battling them in comments at several sites such as HuffPo. I wonder why they aren't posting here as well?
| 275 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:23:10pm |
I just noticed a couple of posters from the old days. What brought you back? If I may ask?
| 276 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:23:26pm |
re: #274 beekiller
I think you answered your own question.
| 277 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:24:43pm |
re: #275 Cannadian Club Akbar
2004 regdate here. I come back to LGF whenever there's terrorism news, Israel news or document forgery stuff going on.
When it's cycling, music and crazy rightwinger stuff going on, I don't feel the need to post so much, but still read the frontpage.
| 278 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:24:48pm |
re: #274 beekiller
I have noticed some people(liberals and moderates) who usually post here have been battling them in comments at several sites such as HuffPo. I wonder why they aren't posting here as well?
I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you saying there are lizards making anti-Israel comments on HuffPo?
| 280 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:25:56pm |
re: #277 MagnaniomousCoward
Cool. Have you met our new liberals?
//
| 281 |
Mark Pennington Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:30:39pm |
re: #278 JasonA
I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you saying there are lizards making anti-Israel comments on HuffPo?
No, there are Lizards on various sites defending Israel(with class) but not doing so here. Or saying anything for that matter. And yeah I did actually know the answer to my own question. Just think it is sad.
| 283 |
Fozzie Bear Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:32:44pm |
re: #211 Cato the Elder
I think you would agree that this brand of dumb leftist exists pretty much everywhere, in the U.S. included.
| 284 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:33:15pm |
re: #281 beekiller
I think it's because they're busy over there, so why preach to the choir here? Also it would look tacky to sit around on LGF and tell people where to go and comment on other websites - we're not some sort of cult coordination central.
re: #280 Cannadian Club Akbar
Ahaha, no I don't think so.
I still have an unanswered tirade from a journalist explaining to me how our lizardoid overlord was a right-wing extremist, and read the accusations of him being a left-winger with the same amount of palms hitting my forehead.
Charles highlighted a user comment saying in essence that it wasn't Charles who moved to the left, it was the right that ran to the far right, and I think that is mostly true. I still he and LGF changed a little bit too, but mostly the same anti-idiotarism is what defines it - whether it be birthers, truthers, Paulians or Hamas.
| 285 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:36:03pm |
re: #284 MagnaniomousCoward
I don't think LGF moved. I agree the right ran away with the ball. But we do have some cool Libs.
| 286 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:36:57pm |
re: #281 beekiller
No, there are Lizards on various sites defending Israel(with class) but not doing so here. Or saying anything for that matter. And yeah I did actually know the answer to my own question. Just think it is sad.
Nah, people can only be paying attention to so many comment feeds at once. I think the homeland is secure.
| 287 |
Fozzie Bear Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:38:26pm |
re: #285 Cannadian Club Akbar
I don't think LGF moved. I agree the right ran away with the ball. But we do have some cool Libs.
What makes this site so interesting is the mix of opinions represented. If this were a righty circle jerk or a lefty rallying point, it wouldn't be worth reading.
| 288 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:39:58pm |
re: #287 Fozzie Bear
What makes this site so interesting is the mix of opinions represented. If this were a righty circle jerk or a lefty rallying point, it wouldn't be worth reading.
Agree. I like everyone here. Valid points make for valued discussion.
| 289 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:40:50pm |
"It's the Religion of Peace!"
Image: x610.jpg
| 290 |
Fozzie Bear Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:41:40pm |
re: #289 Killgore Trout
"It's the Religion of Peace!"
Image: x610.jpg
Aak! It looks like she is about to bite the cameraman.
| 291 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:42:27pm |
re: #290 Fozzie Bear
Aak! It looks like she is about to bite the cameraman.
Or club him over the head with that holy book.
| 292 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:43:22pm |
| 293 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:44:12pm |
Jane, you ignorant slut.
///get it?
| 294 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:44:24pm |
re: #284 MagnaniomousCoward
And by the way I am a bit skeptical of global warming theories too, but I defer to hard science and the precautionary principle on that. OK, so we're not 100% certain, but if there's a significant chance that human activity changes the climate, then we have to act presuming that it does.
As for the religious right and social conservatism, I think both Charles, the religious right, and others, make a mistake by conflating it into one huge issue.
Example: It should be possible to be pro-choice and anti-gay marriage at the same time. It should also be possible to be anti-gay marriage, but pro-civil unions, and anti-gay-killing in Iran. Or a pro-gay marriage anti-abortionist. Even within the abortion issue, thinking that Roe v. Wade was an incorrect court decision should be possible even if you're pro-choice. People these days identify more and more with issues than with parties, so maybe representative democracy should be re-worked to reflect that?
| 295 |
Fozzie Bear Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:48:05pm |
re: #285 Cannadian Club Akbar
I don't think LGF moved. I agree the right ran away with the ball. But we do have some cool Libs.
The Overton window fell off the house and rolled off the hill. That doesn't mean the house moved.
| 296 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:49:49pm |
re: #294 MagnaniomousCoward
I am Pro-life. But not if you have been convicted. And it isn't my place.
| 297 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:51:22pm |
re: #295 Fozzie Bear
I think what it might be is that LGF started covering more things where the right wing were making assess out of themselves, while in the past it was usually covering issues where the left was doing it, or where both sides where to blame. (Trutherism is both left-wing and right-wing convergence material.) Combine that with the right getting radicalized after losing the election.
| 298 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:53:04pm |
re: #296 Cannadian Club Akbar
I am Pro-life. But not if you have been convicted. And it isn't my place.
I wrote that awkward. If you have been convicted and sentence to die. Gonner.
| 299 |
Renaissance_Man Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:54:46pm |
re: #284 MagnaniomousCoward
Charles highlighted a user comment saying in essence that it wasn't Charles who moved to the left, it was the right that ran to the far right, and I think that is mostly true. I still he and LGF changed a little bit too, but mostly the same anti-idiotarism is what defines it - whether it be birthers, truthers, Paulians or Hamas.
Speaking of anti-idiotarianism, I had the tremendous misfortune of seeing a Kevin Trudeau infomercial this morning. Holy shit.
| 301 |
Fozzie Bear Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:56:01pm |
It's slooooooow here. The lizards are out sunning themselves, apparently.
I think I shall do the same.
| 302 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:57:22pm |
re: #301 Fozzie Bear
Lizards need some sun to get going in the morning. Those furries have it easy. Grumble.
| 304 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:59:00pm |
re: #287 Fozzie Bear
What makes this site so interesting is the mix of opinions represented. If this were a righty circle jerk or a lefty rallying point, it wouldn't be worth reading.
Exactly. That's why what I hate above all else are comments that stink of people trying to stigmatize certain opinions.
| 305 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 5, 2010 1:59:18pm |
| 306 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:00:01pm |
re: #292 Cannadian Club Akbar
There is only Peace in Islam...
/
And, don't you forget it buster or I KEEL YOU.
| 307 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:01:03pm |
re: #289 Killgore Trout
Is that even a real Quran? Translations don't count.
| 308 |
Cathypop Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:04:44pm |
re: #302 MagnaniomousCoward
Lizards need some sun to get going in the morning. Those furries have it easy. Grumble.
This lizard just spent 2 hours at the lake sunning and floating in the lovely lake. I am now a very content lizard.
| 309 |
Bear Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:09:31pm |
glad some are in the sunshine. Rain showers most of the day so far. However on the bright side it is filling my water tank.
| 310 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:09:49pm |
I spent the afternoon working in the concession stand. Once again, other than the coach and his score-keeper, I was the only freaking parent there. What is wrong with people?! I also sat in the sun for an hour to run the dunking booth and I am wiped. There's a big party at the club tonight but I think I'm too pooped to go. Dagnabit.
| 311 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:12:24pm |
re: #32 Killgore Trout
This is hilarious: White House linked to flotilla organizers
"A reputable source close to the Netanyahu government has told World Nut Daily..."
No, these terms do NOT go together.
BTW, demo and counterdemo at SF City Hall this morning--went SUPER!
| 312 |
Linden Arden Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:12:57pm |
There is no "liberal" perspective on Israel.
American Jews do not even form a consensus despite the fact they overwhelmingly favor Democrats in elections.
| 313 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:13:55pm |
re: #44 Charles
What's the matter with Kansas anyway?
Too flat. A man could go crazy, staring out at all that horizon.
| 314 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:14:32pm |
re: #48 TampaKnight
And the left would be tying it back to George Bush somehow.
It'd be good fun to watch.
You mean, aside from the fact that an asteroid would have hit the earth?
| 315 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:14:43pm |
re: #311 SanFranciscoZionist
"A reputable source close to the Netanyahu government has told World Nut Daily..."
No, these terms do NOT go together.
BTW, demo and counterdemo at SF City Hall this morning--went SUPER!
I read on Cindy Sheehan's blog today a quote from an SFZionist sign at a protest:
“Until all of Gaza is destroyed the job is not done.”Words on a sign of a Zionist in San Francisco
I followed a link on twitter, and I don't really want to link to her nonsense. She cites ifamericansknew as her source from some stats.
| 316 |
justaminute Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:14:43pm |
Hi, I am kind of new to LGF and I am a progressive but a business owner that has just returned from vacation. I posted a couple of comments a day or to ago. My husband is an Iranian-American and he has to go to Iran the next weekend because his mother is in the final stages of life. Unfortunately the next weekend is also the anniversary of the election and Neda's death. Protests are expected. But I was signing on to report that Iranians with the Green Movement are hatin on Hamas and Hezbollah now. Not that will be ever reported. American's probably won't know that if they don't read blogs in Farsi. The government of Iran has imported them to contain the protesting citizens in ways that other Iranians might not do. I can't sight sources for you because they are in Farsi and my husband is to busy now to translate.
| 317 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:14:55pm |
re: #50 jordash1212
I'm waiting for the ultimate conspiracy by the right that Bush was Obama's plot to polarize the American public so he could be elected. Or am I too late?
I'm pretty sure Glenn Beck is getting there.
| 318 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:16:17pm |
re: #314 SanFranciscoZionist
Oh don't worry. If the news reports that an asteroid has destroyed the Earth, some people won't notice the apparent contradiction of them being alive to discuss it. After all, it was on the news......
| 319 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:16:52pm |
re: #68 Macha
Oh Great, one more end times scenario. Just what we need. Jesus surfing in on a longboard through the heavenly clouds to millions of screaming estatic Jews who are proclaiming "we were wrong and you ARE the messiah". These So. Cal. mega churches are all about crowd hysteria and fantasy. Christian rock, big hair and E M O T I ON.
I read an interesting article about Christian raves and rock concerts and such at one point. A pastor who was interviewed said that he's glad the kids like listening to Christian music but "they get worked up emotionally, and they think that's the Holy Spirit".
| 320 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:16:58pm |
re: #316 justaminute
Short Shit is importing members of Hizb'allah and Hamas to counter the Green Movement?
| 321 |
Stonemason Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:17:50pm |
re: #287 Fozzie Bear
What makes this site so interesting is the mix of opinions represented. If this were a righty circle jerk or a lefty rallying point, it wouldn't be worth reading.
Interesting comparison...
Many LGF posters lean very left now, I have no idea where the owner leans, he's usually pretty centered, and seems to despise the extremes on the right and left, although, the right is "worse now".
I am in no way complaining, I am here for the schooling I get on many issues.
| 322 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:18:20pm |
re: #316 justaminute
Hi, I am kind of new to LGF and I am a progressive but a business owner that has just returned from vacation. I posted a couple of comments a day or to ago. My husband is an Iranian-American and he has to go to Iran the next weekend because his mother is in the final stages of life. Unfortunately the next weekend is also the anniversary of the election and Neda's death. Protests are expected. But I was signing on to report that Iranians with the Green Movement are hatin on Hamas and Hezbollah now. Not that will be ever reported. American's probably won't know that if they don't read blogs in Farsi. The government of Iran has imported them to contain the protesting citizens in ways that other Iranians might not do. I can't sight sources for you because they are in Farsi and my husband is to busy now to translate.
Wow, I wish him luck, and hope he stays safe.
Thanks for logging on.
| 323 |
abaleh Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:18:35pm |
re: #316 justaminute
Give us the links and we can try to Google translate them.
Sorry to hear about your mother in law.
| 324 |
justaminute Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:19:13pm |
re: #320 MandyManners
Yes, they have been using them for quite a while, even before the election. Especially in Tehran and other large cities.
| 325 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:20:23pm |
re: #324 justaminute
Yes, they have been using them for quite a while, even before the election. Especially in Tehran and other large cities.
There have been lots of rumours about that. I'm tempted to believe it, but I'm "biased" and not much surprises me anymore. How reliable would you say the claims are -- from your Farsi sources?
| 326 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:20:25pm |
re: #316 justaminute
Thanks for the input. I am well aware of Hizballah, Hamas and Syria being involved in putting down the opposition. They were pretty much the only international support that Ahmadi got, apart from some neo-nazis and paleo-conservatives in America who I also saw supported Ahmadinejad.
May he stay safe.
| 327 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:21:05pm |
re: #324 justaminute
Yes, they have been using them for quite a while, even before the election. Especially in Tehran and other large cities.
For some reason that strikes me as funny.
| 328 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:21:33pm |
re: #123 tradewind
For the same reason that the European and UK press has designated muslims ' asian '.
They feel a heavy burden of responsibility to dial down the rhetoric.//
That is not what the UK press is doing. "Asian" is the normative way to refer to South Asians there.
| 329 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:24:01pm |
| 330 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:24:12pm |
re: #321 Stonemason
Interesting comparison...
Many LGF posters lean very left now, I have no idea where the owner leans, he's usually pretty centered, and seems to despise the extremes on the right and left, although, the right is "worse now".
I am in no way complaining, I am here for the schooling I get on many issues.
Yeah, the choice of words gave Fozzie away. :)
But what's "very left" to you?
| 331 |
justaminute Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:24:34pm |
re: #323 abaleh
I will have my husband find some links but right now we are all about insurance. We live in Oklahoma City and we have had a aload of hail damage and he is meeting as I type this with an insurance adjuster.
| 332 |
Fozzie Bear Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:27:19pm |
re: #321 Stonemason
Interesting comparison...
Many LGF posters lean very left now, I have no idea where the owner leans, he's usually pretty centered, and seems to despise the extremes on the right and left, although, the right is "worse now".
I am in no way complaining, I am here for the schooling I get on many issues.
re: #330 Nimed
Yeah, the choice of words gave Fozzie away. :)
But what's "very left" to you?
Actually I had initially written "righty rallying" but the alliteration irritated me so I swapped them. Don't read anything into that word choiuse, I had meant to make a 1:1 comparison without repeating a phrase. That was a stylistic choice.
Read into it if you want, but that's not what I was trying to get at.
| 333 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:27:47pm |
re: #283 Fozzie Bear
I think you would agree that this brand of dumb leftist exists pretty much everywhere, in the U.S. included.
Of course. But it takes on an extra poignancy for me when I see it emanating from a leftist German, who, one would think, might have historical reason to take a more differentiated view.
| 336 |
Stonemason Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:28:18pm |
re: #330 Nimed
Very left to me (and remember, I said many, not all) are the posters that label the entire GOP as teabaggers, those that are upset that there is no single payer part in the HCB, and, those that defended the terrorists on the ship that was boarded by Israel (although some of them are now gone).
The majority of posters are in the middle somewhere, and there are still some hard core right wingers hanging around, those who are smart enough not to dirty the carpet of the host.
| 337 |
justaminute Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:28:20pm |
re: #327 MandyManners
Hamas and others are bought and paid for. Some of them instead of traveling back and forth between uprising or when need have moved there
| 338 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:31:40pm |
re: #332 Fozzie Bear
Actually I had initially written "righty rallying" but the alliteration irritated me so I swapped them. Don't read anything into that word choiuse, I had meant to make a 1:1 comparison without repeating a phrase. That was a stylistic choice.
Read into it if you want, but that's not what I was trying to get at.
So, which is it dude? :P
That comment was meant to be light.
| 339 |
Stonemason Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:31:43pm |
re: #332 Fozzie Bear
All in fun Fozzie
word choices are important though, my favorite comparison is 'anger' and 'resentment', one is justified the other is percieved. Not equal in any way, yet, for some reason, many felt (and still do I imagine) that those two terms can be used equally.
Oh well, back to lurking for me.
| 340 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:32:45pm |
re: #321 Stonemason
Interesting comparison...
Many LGF posters lean very left now, I have no idea where the owner leans, he's usually pretty centered, and seems to despise the extremes on the right and left, although, the right is "worse now".
I am in no way complaining, I am here for the schooling I get on many issues.
what is "very left"?
| 341 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:34:03pm |
re: #319 SanFranciscoZionist
I read an interesting article about Christian raves and rock concerts and such at one point. A pastor who was interviewed said that he's glad the kids like listening to Christian music but "they get worked up emotionally, and they think that's the Holy Spirit".
Speaking of the Holy Spirit...
this drummer has got it. Or maybe he's got the Shining. or maybe he's been ridden by a Voodoo loa.
| 342 |
Stonemason Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:34:04pm |
| 343 |
baier Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:34:10pm |
Radio transmissions between Israel and Flotilla, best reply when asked to change course, "Shut up and go back to Auschwitz"...[2:05]. Peace activists my ass.
| 344 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:34:42pm |
| 345 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:35:18pm |
Something involving a nap... yep... that's the ticket.
| 346 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:36:09pm |
re: #344 WindUpBird
Also, I don't know of a single LGF poster (excet maybe cordell? I dunno) who is really bent out of shape about the lack of single payer. I would have liked it, but I know it's politically infeasable, completely impossible. I'd also like a McLaren F1 in my garage.
| 347 |
justaminute Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:39:11pm |
re: #325 Joo-LiZ
There have been lots of rumours about that. I'm tempted to believe it, but I'm "biased" and not much surprises me anymore. How reliable would you say the claims are -- from your Farsi sources?
Well all I can tell you is every Iranian that I know says the same thing. We have a satellite that gets Media from Persian stations in California that report this but they just speak Farsi.
| 348 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:40:29pm |
re: #337 justaminute
Hamas and others are bought and paid for. Some of them instead of traveling back and forth between uprising or when need have moved there
What fucked-up lives they lead!
| 349 |
b_snark Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:40:32pm |
You know, the smell of sulfur in the air makes me think someone left the Hell Mouth open again.
| 350 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:41:33pm |
re: #343 baier
Radio transmissions between Israel and Flotilla, best reply when asked to change course, "Shut up and go back to Auschwitz"...[2:05]. Peace activists my ass.
[Video]
Helen Thomas was on board?
| 351 |
Stonemason Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:41:42pm |
| 352 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:42:12pm |
re: #347 justaminute
Well all I can tell you is every Iranian that I know says the same thing. We have a satellite that gets Media from Persian stations in California that report this but they just speak Farsi.
I feel like if only there was a regime change in Iran, there would be a massive sea-shift in the political forces in the world.
So many security threats would be drastically diminished.
I will never understand the silence about the repression of the Greens.
| 353 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:42:28pm |
re: #336 Stonemason
Very left to me (and remember, I said many, not all) are the posters that label the entire GOP as teabaggers
There are people here who say that about the entire GOP?
those that are upset that there is no single payer part in the HCB
Fair enough.
and those that defended the terrorists on the ship that was boarded by Israel (although some of them are now gone).
If I point out that the word "terrorist" is inadequate for the vast majority of the Mava Marmara, or even all of the crew, I'm I defending them? Note that this is different from some of them having very shady connections, or sympathizing with terrorist acts (which is bad enough).
The majority of posters are in the middle somewhere, and there are still some hard core right wingers hanging around, those who are smart enough not to dirty the carpet of the host.
Alright. I just asked you because my definition of "far left" is very different from yours. The expression itself is very flexible (like "far right"), and I usually have a problem with it because tends to be used to decide what should be considered the crazy, unacceptable views.
| 354 |
Baier Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:44:54pm |
re: #352 Joo-LiZ
Won't happen. The Iranians cannot do it themselves and the west doesn't have the stones or political will to help. If it did happen the world would be a better place.
| 355 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:45:12pm |
re: #343 baier
Radio transmissions between Israel and Flotilla, best reply when asked to change course, "Shut up and go back to Auschwitz"...[2:05]. Peace activists my ass.
[Video]
Did that sound like an Arabic speaker to you?
| 356 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:45:44pm |
| 357 |
b_snark Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:45:53pm |
re: #353 Nimed
Alright. I just asked you because my definition of "far left" is very different from yours. The expression itself is very flexible (like "far right"), and I usually have a problem with it because tends to be used to decide what should be considered the crazy, unacceptable views.
Either you're with us or against us. There is no middle ground. It's a black and white world, gray is just a fashion choice.
| 358 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:45:55pm |
re: #345 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Something involving a nap... yep... that's the ticket.
Only after you finish the pie.
| 359 |
Baier Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:46:18pm |
re: #355 MandyManners
Did that sound like an Arabic speaker to you?
I can't place the accent even though I listened to it a few times.
| 360 |
Stonemason Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:47:02pm |
re: #353 Nimed
I did not say "far" left, I said very left. There is a huge difference. The far left are quiclky found and banned, as are the far right.
| 361 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:48:10pm |
re: #360 Stonemason
I did not say "far" left, I said very left. There is a huge difference. The far left are quiclky found and banned, as are the far right.
If you think anyone here besides Cordell is "very left", your equipment needs calibration. You do not SEE the "very left" here. They do not come to LGF.
| 362 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:48:19pm |
re: #360 Stonemason
I did not say "far" left, I said very left. There is a huge difference. The far left are quiclky found and banned, as are the far right.
Oh, sorry for the switch.
| 363 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:48:24pm |
| 364 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:48:33pm |
re: #352 Joo-LiZ
I feel like if only there was a regime change in Iran, there would be a massive sea-shift in the political forces in the world.
So many security threats would be drastically diminished.
I will never understand the silence about the repression of the Greens.
I could not agree more. I really felt the President missed a great chance last summer to use his status and moral standing to help the green movement. At the time, I questioned the calibration of his moral compass because if there was ever a clear case of good vs evil, it was the mullahs vs the regular folks in iran. And for the POTUS to come down strongly on the side of the people trying for a fair election seemed like a "no brainer."
| 365 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:48:35pm |
re: #241 MagnaniomousCoward
I've actually taken a university course about Japanese politics. I think one of the problems there is that prime ministers, as are their CEO's often, quickly replaced frontmen without much individuality. I don't mean puppets, but sort of the guy who has to go out and tell everyone what the old boys have decided. Koizumi was a breath of fresh air in that respect, and maybe this new guy will stand out as well? We'll see.
I think, also, as more countries spend longer as democracies, they'll figure out how the basic mode of government works best with local culture and style.
| 366 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:49:09pm |
re: #359 Baier
I can't place the accent even though I listened to it a few times.
As Liz suggested, it could be Turkish.
| 367 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:49:41pm |
re: #362 Nimed
Oh, sorry for the switch.
There's like very left, and totally extremely left, and far over the horizon left, and leftersons left, and mega-left and liberal lefty McHippie Wobbly Left.
| 368 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:49:47pm |
re: #361 WindUpBird
If you think anyone here besides Cordell is "very left", your equipment needs calibration. You do not SEE the "very left" here. They do not come to LGF.
I agree. But it's ultimately a pretty subjective qualification. Everybody likes to take itself as the frame of reference.
| 369 |
justaminute Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:50:17pm |
re: #352 Joo-LiZ
I feel like if only there was a regime change in Iran, there would be a massive sea-shift in the political forces in the world.
So many security threats would be drastically diminished.
I will never understand the silence about the repression of the Greens.
Many Iranians that support this regime are in areas that are very backward and they really, really do not know any better. It is truly sad. I would probably have to post an entire blog to explain the situation to you but will post alot these next three weeks and we can talk about it, if you want
| 370 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:50:42pm |
re: #368 Nimed
I agree. But it's ultimately a pretty subjective qualification. Everybody likes to take itself as the frame of reference.
PIMF - himself
| 371 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:50:45pm |
re: #343 baier
As a licensed maritime VHF radio operator I'm a bit appalled by that abuse of the radio - mainly because many of the vessels don't identify and because it takes place on channel 16 which is supposed to be the emergency and hailing frequency. What are these people, drunk? It reminds me more of drunk old guys talking on CB radio.
| 372 |
abaleh Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:51:52pm |
re: #366 MandyManners
As Liz suggested, it could be Turkish.
Or Malaysian or Uzbek or any other accent.
there was no shortage of languages on those boats.
The last one sounds slightly Russian to me.
| 373 |
b_snark Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:52:19pm |
We need to run a quick poll.
Everyone here who loves and supports Hamas raise your right,... no left hand.
Come on people, surely there must be somebody here who thinks Hamas is the cat's meow.
Anybody?
Don't be shy, those nasty right wingers can't hurt you.
I guess no one is going to raise his/her hand.
Hmm, I wonder what that means?
| 374 |
Targetpractice Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:52:28pm |
Well I know I'm comin' in late to this, but I'm glad to see that the whole episode played out without further bloodshed. If further episodes played out similarly, as so many did before it, it gives the Mavi Marmara less propaganda value. People are more inclined to ask "Why was this boat different?," more inclined to look into the particulars of the incident rather than simply accepting the mindless lie that "The Israelis are violent thugs!"
| 375 |
ryannon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:52:28pm |
| 376 |
b_snark Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:53:29pm |
re: #372 abaleh
Or Malaysian or Uzbek or any other accent.
there was no shortage of languages on those boats.
The last one sounds slightly Russian to me.
Who fucking cares?
| 377 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:53:31pm |
re: #374 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Well I know I'm comin' in late to this, but I'm glad to see that the whole episode played out without further bloodshed. If further episodes played out similarly, as so many did before it, it gives the Mavi Marmara less propaganda value. People are more inclined to ask "Why was this boat different?," more inclined to look into the particulars of the incident rather than simply accepting the mindless lie that "The Israelis are violent thugs!"
See my #129
It won't matter the world, isn't interestd in facts.
| 378 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:54:02pm |
re: #369 justaminute
Many Iranians that support this regime are in areas that are very backward and they really, really do not know any better. It is truly sad. I would probably have to post an entire blog to explain the situation to you but will post alot these next three weeks and we can talk about it, if you want
is it fair to say that those in Iran who are poor and uneducated tend to favor the mullahs because they derive financial benefits from doing so? And is it fair to say that those who are more industrious and shrewd tend to want less of a presence from the state in their affairs?
| 379 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:54:05pm |
re: #372 abaleh
Or Malaysian or Uzbek or any other accent.
there was no shortage of languages on those boats.
The last one sounds slightly Russian to me.
I was refering specifically to the asshole at 2:09 who said "Go back to Auschwitz".
| 380 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:54:24pm |
re: #289 Killgore Trout
"It's the Religion of Peace!"
Image: x610.jpg
Anyone here a fan of Saved? "I am FILLED with God's love!!" (throws Bible at other girl).
| 381 |
abaleh Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:54:36pm |
re: #375 ryannon
Give that girl some french fries and a cheeseburger, she looks horrifically thin
| 382 |
Linden Arden Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:54:37pm |
re: #367 WindUpBird
There's like very left, and totally extremely left, and far over the horizon left, and leftersons left, and mega-left and liberal lefty McHippie Wobbly Left.
As an investor I follow the great capitalist George Soros closely.
Wingnuts call him a "socialist" just for opposing Bush yet he has never uttered a single socialist doctrine in his life.
But Soros is an atheist and favors drug decrim. Thus the wrath against him from the right.
| 383 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:54:56pm |
re: #368 Nimed
I agree. But it's ultimately a pretty subjective qualification. Everybody likes to take itself as the frame of reference.
I take America as my frame of reference. This guy seems to be taking his own internal dialogue as his frame of reference.
I consider Obama to be a mainstream democrat. I consider people reliably to the left of Obama, who think Obama is basically a RINO, THAT'S the "very left". Anyone who thinks Obama is "far left" or a commie, or a socialist, those people are morons and I can't talk to them.
The "far left" or whatever, that's like Tre Arrow, guys who spike trees and people who think Cynthia McKinney makes a lot of sense and who want something akin to actual socialism.
Now the right is tricky, because there's a bunch of guys who are mainstream Republicans who are trying to compensate and tap into this crazy tea party base stuff, so it's difficult to figure out who's serious about their rhetoric, and who's just telling those guys what they want to hear.
I would consider Michele Bachmann reliably far right.
| 384 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:54:57pm |
re: #364 _RememberTonyC
I was somewhat involved in communicating with the Greens in Iran in the election unrest, and the consensus seemed to be that they wanted the USA and especially Israel to remain passive - not get in the way, but not "help" either. I think Obama might have been right about how he handled it, but just facilitating the information to flow, but otherwise staying out of it.
Not sure though.
| 385 |
justaminute Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:55:55pm |
re: #378 _RememberTonyC
is it fair to say that those in Iran who are poor and uneducated tend to favor the mullahs because they derive financial benefits from doing so? And is it fair to say that those who are more industrious and shrewd tend to want less of a presence from the state in their affairs?
Yes, that is very much the situation.
| 386 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:56:20pm |
re: #365 SanFranciscoZionist
re: #367 WindUpBird
Jason Linkins rocks!
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]
What can I say about this? We are talking about a bunch of mentally deranged adults, who have terrorized an elementary school, for daring to paint a mural featuring the faces of black and Latino children -- actual black and Latino children who live in Arizona. And we're also talking about a group of adults who have decided to send a stirring message to their students and the world: when a bunch of mentally deranged adults -- and we are not talking about people who are particularly threatening, this is a bunch of utterly gutless mopes, yelling racial slurs from their cars, egged on by some pinhead city councilman cowering behind a radio microphone -- threaten a bunch of children, the best thing to do is to accede to their psychotic, racist "demands."
(...)
And let me be clear to you all: there are no "two sides to this story." This is not something you need to have a panel discussion about. CNN, I don't want to see you plumbing the depths of your counterintuition on your website, or lending credence to the notion that the gutless mopes in their cars, shrieking racial slurs at the images of children have an interesting point of view that we should "hear out" because of the need to be "balanced." This is your moment to decry, condemn, and brutalize these evil people.
Blast them to hell, or go jump in the Gulf of Mexico.
| 387 |
prairiefire Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:56:33pm |
re: #382 Linden Arden
As an investor I follow the great capitalist George Soros closely.
Wingnuts call him a "socialist" just for opposing Bush yet he has never uttered a single socialist doctrine in his life.
But Soros is an atheist and favors drug decrim. Thus the wrath against him from the right.
Also, they hate him for supporting MoveOn.org. One of the first left leaning folks to put his money where his mouth is and fight the re-election of GWB in 2004.
| 388 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:56:45pm |
re: #374 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Well I know I'm comin' in late to this, but I'm glad to see that the whole episode played out without further bloodshed. If further episodes played out similarly, as so many did before it, it gives the Mavi Marmara less propaganda value. People are more inclined to ask "Why was this boat different?," more inclined to look into the particulars of the incident rather than simply accepting the mindless lie that "The Israelis are violent thugs!"
Do those people know to ask who were the passengers on the Mavi Marmara?
| 389 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:56:59pm |
re: #385 justaminute
Yes, that is very much the situation.
some things are pretty universal, aren't they!
| 390 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:57:17pm |
re: #382 Linden Arden
As an investor I follow the great capitalist George Soros closely.
Wingnuts call him a "socialist" just for opposing Bush yet he has never uttered a single socialist doctrine in his life.
But Soros is an atheist and favors drug decrim. Thus the wrath against him from the right.
Socialism as a word in American political discourse has lost all meaning. It's been squeezed dry by subliterate psychos who just use it as an insult. Like kids on the playground calling each other "butthole" and "assface".
| 391 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:57:26pm |
re: #378 _RememberTonyC
is it fair to say that those in Iran who are poor and uneducated tend to favor the mullahs because they derive financial benefits from doing so? And is it fair to say that those who are more industrious and shrewd tend to want less of a presence from the state in their affairs?
Pandering to the poor?
| 392 |
Targetpractice Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:58:43pm |
re: #377 Joo-LiZ
See my #129
It won't matter the world, isn't interestd in facts.
Sadly, you're probably right. But as pessimistic as I've become over the years, I still like to keep a little hope alive that one day, truth will win out over propaganda and that Israel will be vindicated for decades of doing everything in its power to protect itself while killing as few as possible.
Or it could simply be because I'm only halfway awake, I'm not entirely sure.
| 393 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:58:49pm |
re: #382 Linden Arden
As an investor I follow the great capitalist George Soros closely.
Wingnuts call him a "socialist" just for opposing Bush yet he has never uttered a single socialist doctrine in his life.
But Soros is an atheist and favors drug decrim. Thus the wrath against him from the right.
I don't give a shit about his religion or opinion about drugs. I still despise him.
| 394 |
abaleh Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:58:52pm |
re: #379 MandyManners
I was refering specifically to the asshole at 2:09 who said "Go back to Auschwitz".
He's the one I meant, I think he was last on the shorter recording released yesterday.
| 396 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 2:59:59pm |
| 397 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:00:09pm |
re: #393 MandyManners
I don't give a shit about his religion or opinion about drugs. I still despise him.
We all know.
| 398 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:00:27pm |
re: #387 prairiefire
If only moveon.org had been about moving on, instead of staying stuck in the past.
| 399 |
Baier Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:00:36pm |
re: #382 Linden Arden
As an investor I follow the great capitalist George Soros closely.
Wingnuts call him a "socialist" just for opposing Bush yet he has never uttered a single socialist doctrine in his life.
But Soros is an atheist and favors drug decrim. Thus the wrath against him from the right.
George Soros is an investor and not a businessman. I'm sure if he actually had to produce something he would see the world differently.
| 400 |
Linden Arden Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:00:53pm |
re: #393 MandyManners
I don't give a shit about his religion or opinion about drugs. I still despise him.
Do you hate capitalists or hedge fund managers?
I don't know you.... honest question.
| 401 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:01:09pm |
re: #387 prairiefire
Also, they hate him for supporting MoveOn.org. One of the first left leaning folks to put his money where his mouth is and fight the re-election of GWB in 2004.
It's just so unacceptable when Democrats get organized and prevent a blowjob from torpedoing an administration :D Can't have that!
| 402 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:02:00pm |
re: #392 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Sadly, you're probably right. But as pessimistic as I've become over the years, I still like to keep a little hope alive that one day, truth will win out over propaganda and that Israel will be vindicated for decades of doing everything in its power to protect itself while killing as few as possible.
Or it could simply be because I'm only halfway awake, I'm not entirely sure.
I have "gotten through" to a lot of people. But it's very slow and I feel quite accomplished when I do.
Then I look at the news and see the Swedish Port Workers Union wants to boycott Israeli goods for a week to protest the Mavi Marmara incident, and I throw up my hands in frustration.
Propaganda inflames the masses instantly. Reason gets through to people much slower.
| 403 |
ryannon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:02:19pm |
re: #381 abaleh
Give that girl some french fries and a cheeseburger, she looks horrifically thin
I don't know if you noticed, but there are three of them. And they look a hell of a lot better than the one in Killgore's post.
| 404 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:02:20pm |
re: #384 MagnaniomousCoward
I was somewhat involved in communicating with the Greens in Iran in the election unrest, and the consensus seemed to be that they wanted the USA and especially Israel to remain passive - not get in the way, but not "help" either. I think Obama might have been right about how he handled it, but just facilitating the information to flow, but otherwise staying out of it.
Not sure though.
I heard similar things last year, but I can't help but think that a US President who was as popular around the world as Barack Obama could have used his soapbox a bit more than he did. it seemed to me that he was betting that the iranian mullahs would succeed in crushing dissent and he felt that he would have no negotiating leverage with them if they stayed in power and he was TOO vocal in supporting the greens. But he assumed he could "deal" with the mullahs, and we have seen that is not really true. So he was "0 for 2," and things have gotten worse in the last year.
| 405 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:02:35pm |
re: #383 WindUpBird
I meant DINO, lol
| 406 |
prairiefire Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:02:44pm |
re: #401 WindUpBird
It's just so unacceptable when Democrats get organized and prevent a blowjob from torpedoing an administration :D Can't have that!
I still have my phone lists of progressive voters. Obama's campaign took the structure established by MoveOn and others, and ramped it up x25.
| 408 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:03:36pm |
re: #391 MandyManners
Pandering to the poor?
you got that right ... as i said, some things are universal.
| 409 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:03:41pm |
re: #406 prairiefire
I still have my phone lists of progressive voters. Obama's campaign took the structure established by MoveOn and others, and ramped it up x25.
yep!
Some structure of MoveOn, some of Dean's ideas, run by facebook guys = BOOM best campaign apparatus
| 410 |
prairiefire Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:03:54pm |
re: #398 MagnaniomousCoward
If only moveon.org had been about moving on, instead of staying stuck in the past.
How where they stuck in the past?
| 411 |
abaleh Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:04:01pm |
re: #403 ryannon
I don't know if you noticed, but there are three of them. And they look a hell of a lot better than the one in Killgore's post.
I stopped after 10 seconds of the first one. Her hip bones kept poking holes in my brain.
anything looks better than Killgore's image (-;
| 412 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:04:05pm |
| 413 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:04:13pm |
| 414 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:04:33pm |
re: #383 WindUpBird
I take America as my frame of reference. This guy seems to be taking his own internal dialogue as his frame of reference.
I consider Obama to be a mainstream democrat. I consider people reliably to the left of Obama, who think Obama is basically a RINO, THAT'S the "very left". Anyone who thinks Obama is "far left" or a commie, or a socialist, those people are morons and I can't talk to them.
The "far left" or whatever, that's like Tre Arrow, guys who spike trees and people who think Cynthia McKinney makes a lot of sense and who want something akin to actual socialism.
Now the right is tricky, because there's a bunch of guys who are mainstream Republicans who are trying to compensate and tap into this crazy tea party base stuff, so it's difficult to figure out who's serious about their rhetoric, and who's just telling those guys what they want to hear.
I would consider Michele Bachmann reliably far right.
I'm with you brother -- on pretty much everything you said. But you left some issues out. So complete drug legalization can be considered very left (or libertarian :D ). Same for prostitution. There are a bunch of foreign policy correspondents to this.
| 415 |
prairiefire Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:04:48pm |
re: #409 WindUpBird
yep!
Some structure of MoveOn, some of Dean's ideas, run by facebook guys = BOOM best campaign apparatus
WUB, I love your energy. Nothing like being personally attacked to activate a person's passion for freedom.
| 416 |
Stonemason Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:05:31pm |
re: #401 WindUpBird
It's just so unacceptable when Democrats get organized and prevent a blowjob from torpedoing an administration :D Can't have that!
LOL...yeah, that whole 'lying to a grand jury' in a completley seperate sexual harrassment case had nothing to do with President Clinton being impeached. I can't even believe he kept his liscense to practice la...oh, never mind.
And yes, my frame of reference is mine. I was not asked "what do you think WindupBird considerst to be very left, I was asked what I thought was very left.
| 417 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:05:38pm |
re: #410 prairiefire
Only things I heard out of those quarters were complaining about losing the election, but then again I wasn't a member there so what do I know?
| 418 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:07:10pm |
re: #315 Joo-LiZ
I followed a link on twitter, and I don't really want to link to her nonsense. She cites ifamericansknew as her source from some stats.
We've been closely examining the pictures of that sign. Not sure what the verdict was. Probably real.
Today we did have to take away a sign that said "Rid of Islam" from an old Russian dude. It did not go well.
Controlling the message is hard!
| 419 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:07:18pm |
re: #393 MandyManners
I don't give a shit about his religion or opinion about drugs. I still despise him.
You shouldn't. He spent most of his money in politics fighting Communism all over the world. Some on apartheid too. No shit!
Plus he is a former student of Popper, and that's just cool. :p
| 420 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:07:32pm |
re: #414 Nimed
I'm with you brother -- on pretty much everything you said. But you left some issues out. So complete drug legalization can be considered very left (or libertarian :D ). Same for prostitution. There are a bunch of foreign policy correspondents to this.
Yeah, totally. Anyone who thinks heroin should be legal is NUTS. pot legalization isn't far left, but harder drugs are. It's ridiculous that we ban mushrooms.
| 421 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:07:43pm |
re: #416 Stonemason
lol
| 422 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:07:43pm |
| 423 |
prairiefire Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:08:31pm |
re: #417 MagnaniomousCoward
Only things I heard out of those quarters were complaining about losing the election, but then again I wasn't a member there so what do I know?
We lost fair and square in 2004.
| 424 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:11:58pm |
| 425 |
Linden Arden Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:12:05pm |
re: #420 WindUpBird
Yeah, totally. Anyone who thinks heroin should be legal is NUTS. pot legalization isn't far left, but harder drugs are. It's ridiculous that we ban mushrooms.
I doubt the Soros haters can even articulate their rationale.
Its been festered by the Fox News minions.
| 426 |
ryannon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:13:42pm |
re: #411 abaleh
I stopped after 10 seconds of the first one. Her hip bones kept poking holes in my brain.
anything looks better than Killgore's image (-;
Lest someone didn't get it, I wanted to counterpoint FBV's comment ('Oh baby') concerning Killgore's poster girl - and all hopeless, lifeless repression she visibly represents - with the antipodal images of the three beauties shamelessly strutting their stuff down a Parisian street. And thus the comment, 'Oh Baby Baby Baby', which is the title of the song that the music video illustrates.
All this is getting a bit complicated. I guess one either gets the intention of the post or one doesn't.
As for the question of whether the girls are too thin, it's purely a question of taste. As far as mine goes, the girls are just perfect.
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
| 427 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:14:15pm |
bb in 21 minutes or so.
(people should give precise time estimates more often).
| 428 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:14:38pm |
re: #418 SanFranciscoZionist
We've been closely examining the pictures of that sign. Not sure what the verdict was. Probably real.
Today we did have to take away a sign that said "Rid of Islam" from an old Russian dude. It did not go well.
Controlling the message is hard!
From a Toronto protest/counter-protest yesterday. Any SanFran photo montages?
I'm not a fan of the written messaging in this one, but it's got good photos:
[Link: www.youtube.com...]
| 429 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:14:51pm |
re: #361 WindUpBird
If you think anyone here besides Cordell is "very left", your equipment needs calibration. You do not SEE the "very left" here. They do not come to LGF.
THey would not be caught dead in a place like this, and if they did end up here by mistake, they would go haywire very quickly.
| 431 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:15:46pm |
re: #371 MagnaniomousCoward
As a licensed maritime VHF radio operator I'm a bit appalled by that abuse of the radio - mainly because many of the vessels don't identify and because it takes place on channel 16 which is supposed to be the emergency and hailing frequency. What are these people, drunk? It reminds me more of drunk old guys talking on CB radio.
They may just not know what the hell they're doing. Or care.
| 432 |
prairiefire Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:16:25pm |
re: #429 SanFranciscoZionist
THey would not be caught dead in a place like this, and if they did end up here by mistake, they would go haywire very quickly.
Hi, SFZ, hope you are well.
| 434 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:18:00pm |
re: #431 SanFranciscoZionist
I'd imagine its pretty much intentional. This isn't like where you call your buddy on the 'laid way back II' and agree to go to channel 24.
| 435 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:18:07pm |
Those girls are too thin. Few young women can reach that weight without relentless (and pointless) effort.
To understand where I am coming from, The Princess (who is a size 3) recently told me that the anorexic girls at her school make her feel fat.
She knows that most of the skinny, skinny girls are probably not there naturally. She knows that's unhealthy. She knows that the muscle she's put on through athletic endeavors is fine and healthy.
It doesn't help. She's bigger than them, and she feels it. (But still eating fine.)
| 436 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:18:42pm |
re: #435 EmmmieG
One of the reasons that when push comes to shove I'm glad I'm not female >>
| 437 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:18:44pm |
Just invited to a FB event set for November 27, 2010
Here is the event description:
In response to the moral outrage felt by many people around the world at the continued occpuation, anxation and cultural genocide of the Turkish republic in occupied Kurdistan.... we must act and organize a convoy of ships to bring all necessary supplies to the people of Kurdistan to allow them to defend themselves against continued occupation and genocide.It is horrific to view nations around the world refusing even recognition of this on going atrocity. The Kurdish people have suffered in silence for too long - and if there are ever to gain their rightful independence it is up for noble people in the world to make a stand and break the Iron grip in which Turkey controls the lives and destiny of another people.
We will not submit to any checks as regards the cargo we will supply to the Kurdish people - they as any other nation have the right to all legitimate means of self-defense.
We will resist all and any attempt of the Turkish occupation authorities to prevent us from completing our mission.
We recognize that the Kurdish people are not the only oppressed, occupied and genocided group at the hands of the Turkish occupation authorities and we hope this will lead to greater support for other groups, most especially the Armenians and the ethnically cleansed Cypriots!
Invite as many people as you can - spread the world! Human rights must prevail over oppressive regimes!
LONG LIVE KURDISTAN
FROM THE CAUCUSES TO THE MEDITERRANEAN - KURDISTAN WILL BE FREE!
| 438 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:19:00pm |
re: #403 ryannon
I don't know if you noticed, but there are three of them. And they look a hell of a lot better than the one in Killgore's post.
I think she might be an attractive, or at least not scary, lady, if she didn't look as though she was about to beat the hell out of someone with le Saint Coran.
| 439 |
prairiefire Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:19:17pm |
re: #435 EmmmieG
I try to teach my gal the joy of good food. The pressure on them is relentless.
| 440 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:20:16pm |
re: #420 WindUpBird
It's ridiculous that we ban mushrooms.
This is true. People who want to waste several hours of their lives throwing up in college dorm bathrooms should be permitted to.
| 441 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:20:53pm |
| 442 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:21:22pm |
re: #428 Joo-LiZ
From a Toronto protest/counter-protest yesterday. Any SanFran photo montages?
I'm not a fan of the written messaging in this one, but it's got good photos:
[Link: www.youtube.com...]
There's some stuff on our page here.
| 443 |
Linden Arden Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:21:30pm |
re: #435 EmmmieG
Those girls are too thin. Few young women can reach that weight without relentless (and pointless) effort.
Women are their own worst critics.
Men love 130-lb vivacious women as long as they are hourglass shaped.
| 444 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:21:42pm |
re: #441 MagnaniomousCoward
That'll work. I mean, there are plenty of landlocked countries that participate in the International Whaling Commission, so why not a flotilla to Kurdistan?
Listed location:
The port of Dörtyol, Turkish Occupied Kurdistan
| 445 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:22:01pm |
| 446 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:22:04pm |
re: #441 MagnaniomousCoward
That'll work. I mean, there are plenty of landlocked countries that participate in the International Whaling Commission, so why not a flotilla to Kurdistan?
Balloons? It would be a flotilla.
| 447 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:22:09pm |
| 448 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:22:13pm |
re: #441 MagnaniomousCoward
While we're on it, why not Iraqi Kurdistan too? >>
| 449 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:22:44pm |
re: #442 SanFranciscoZionist
I'm getting an internal server error.
| 450 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:22:57pm |
re: #444 Joo-LiZ
Ah, I didn't realize that Kurdistan was so big that it reached to the Mediterranean.
| 451 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:23:11pm |
re: #435 EmmmieG
Those girls are too thin. Few young women can reach that weight without relentless (and pointless) effort.
To understand where I am coming from, The Princess (who is a size 3) recently told me that the anorexic girls at her school make her feel fat.
She knows that most of the skinny, skinny girls are probably not there naturally. She knows that's unhealthy. She knows that the muscle she's put on through athletic endeavors is fine and healthy.
It doesn't help. She's bigger than them, and she feels it. (But still eating fine.)
That's what's so wrong with this obsession with thinness. A size three athelete feeling fat. GREAT.
| 452 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:24:04pm |
| 453 |
Targetpractice Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:24:36pm |
re: #402 Joo-LiZ
I have "gotten through" to a lot of people. But it's very slow and I feel quite accomplished when I do.
Then I look at the news and see the Swedish Port Workers Union wants to boycott Israeli goods for a week to protest the Mavi Marmara incident, and I throw up my hands in frustration.
Propaganda inflames the masses instantly. Reason gets through to people much slower.
It was a great man who said "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." And I believe, as while the Digital Age has allowed us to access information we previously would have had to get by word of mouth or spending days searching for in foreign newspapers and books, it has also allowed propaganda to reach a wider audience faster than before. The events of Monday are still being analyzed, but the "true" account of events has had six days of play on the MSM.
My only hope is that, with the bias of the MSM becoming more clear to the public and the rise of Internet journalism as a major source of news, the days of propaganda being taken at face value might eventually be over.
| 454 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:24:38pm |
re: #450 MagnaniomousCoward
Ah, I didn't realize that Kurdistan was so big that it reached to the Mediterranean.
I think the point is that Turkey occupies Kurdistan in the same way that Palestinians claim Tel-Aviv is occupied Palestine?
I dunno. The event was made by an Israeli at Hebrew U.
| 455 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:26:50pm |
| 456 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:26:50pm |
re: #450 MagnaniomousCoward
Ah, I didn't realize that Kurdistan was so big that it reached to the Mediterranean.
Someone in the group pointed out the land-lockedness and got this response:
Will Yonatan
nope there is a small inlet to the Mediterranean, where we will be landing.
| 457 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:27:49pm |
re: #441 MagnaniomousCoward
That'll work. I mean, there are plenty of landlocked countries that participate in the International Whaling Commission, so why not a flotilla to Kurdistan?
Kurdistan WOULD have a coastline, if they had not been deprived of it by their oppressors!!
| 459 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:28:15pm |
re: #443 Linden Arden
Women are their own worst critics.
Men love 130-lb vivacious women as long as they are hourglass shaped.
If they're pear-shaped, no way?
| 460 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:28:32pm |
| 461 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:29:01pm |
| 462 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:29:05pm |
re: #456 Joo-LiZ
As I think of it, this 'counterflotilla' idea could be looked at two ways.
Either its showing up the Turks as hypocrites,
Or its Hypocritical because the people organizing it were so hardcore against the first one!
Interesting choice there >>
| 463 |
ryannon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:29:11pm |
re: #438 SanFranciscoZionist
I think she might be an attractive, or at least not scary, lady, if she didn't look as though she was about to beat the hell out of someone with le Saint Coran.
I'm sure she's pleasant enough in a grandmotherly kind of way. But now that you mention it, the three girls in the music video look like they're ready to beat the hell out of someone with their bare hands.
It's all a question of choosing how you get your lumps.
| 464 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:29:28pm |
re: #447 Joo-LiZ
So you are with StandWithUs? Phenomenal work they do.
I am with San Francisco Voice For Israel, a very small, very grassroots operation run out of various garages and living rooms across the Bay Area. We have sort of hooked up with StandWithUs, 'cause they have more infrastructure.
| 465 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:30:07pm |
re: #449 Joo-LiZ
I'm getting an internal server error.
Yeah, me too. I've sent a note to the list. I think that stuff was loaded up by an hysterical man who was short on sleep. He may have hit the wrong button.
| 466 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:30:24pm |
re: #464 SanFranciscoZionist
I am with San Francisco Voice For Israel, a very small, very grassroots operation run out of various garages and living rooms across the Bay Area. We have sort of hooked up with StandWithUs, 'cause they have more infrastructure.
Yasher Koach to you and your colleagues!
StandWithUs produces a lot of material, and their reach spreads far and wide. We make use of their stuff in Canada as well.
| 467 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:31:05pm |
re: #462 windsagio
As I think of it, this 'counterflotilla' idea could be looked at two ways.
Either its showing up the Turks as hypocrites,
Or its Hypocritical because the people organizing it were so hardcore against the first one!
Interesting choice there >>
Yes, I've thought of that as well.
/chagrined
| 468 |
Linden Arden Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:31:41pm |
re: #459 SanFranciscoZionist
If they're pear-shaped, no way?
Quite possible!
Example please?
J-Lo is fine.
| 469 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:31:45pm |
re: #462 windsagio
That's the burden of always being the "good guy"
| 470 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:32:38pm |
re: #467 Joo-LiZ
On the other hand, Kurdistan is a good point even to me ;)
The Turks don't care much for consistency tho', not really.
| 471 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:32:42pm |
re: #467 Joo-LiZ
Yes, I've thought of that as well.
/chagrined
It is funny, though, and it also points to the hypocrisy of people who carefully pick and choose the international causes they decide are super, super important, and which ones they don't care about.
| 472 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:32:47pm |
On the subject of feminine beauty, I had a cool random idea:
You know those horrid child pageants? I'm going to hold one.
It's going to be the Junior Mad Scientist/Evil Genuius Pageant.
Participants (not limited to any one gender) will be graded on their evil laugh, their moniker (they have to have one), and their style (extra points for hair in an unnatural color, but only if it's temporary). Participants will need to present a small science demonstration, along with a plan for taking it global.
I think we would have a ball. Could you imagine the catwalk?
| 473 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:33:24pm |
re: #471 SanFranciscoZionist
Heh, Israel gets everyone amped up.
| 474 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:34:32pm |
re: #472 EmmmieG
On the subject of feminine beauty, I had a cool random idea:
You know those horrid child pageants? I'm going to hold one.
It's going to be the Junior Mad Scientist/Evil Genuius Pageant.
Participants (not limited to any one gender) will be graded on their evil laugh, their moniker (they have to have one), and their style (extra points for hair in an unnatural color, but only if it's temporary). Participants will need to present a small science demonstration, along with a plan for taking it global.
I think we would have a ball. Could you imagine the catwalk?
**Imagining some evil-scientist gadget to somehow force a cat to walk.
| 475 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:35:24pm |
re: #471 SanFranciscoZionist
Actually I think its more than that.
In the US (and yes people will disagree) Israel is politically important, but not that strategically important.
Turkey is just the opposite, and they're really crazily touchy about these things (I think advicating for Kurdistan actually goes under the 'offense against Turkishness' law, like insulting Ataturk). So they tend to get their way.
| 476 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:36:59pm |
It's the Junior Miss Evil League of Evil Pageant!!!
| 478 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:37:33pm |
re: #443 Linden Arden
Women are their own worst critics.
Men love 130-lb vivacious women as long as they are hourglass shaped.
You're slipping into dangerous territory, my friend.
| 479 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:38:00pm |
The Flotilla Choir video has over 700,000 views, and was the 2nd most viewed on youtube yesterday.
Charles posted it (I believe), but here is a repost:
| 480 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:38:04pm |
| 482 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:39:33pm |
re: #459 SanFranciscoZionist
If they're pear-shaped, no way?
That's fine, as long as they're not green.
| 483 |
Linden Arden Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:39:34pm |
re: #472 EmmmieG
On the subject of feminine beauty, I had a cool random idea:
You know those horrid child pageants? I'm going to hold one.
I loved 'Little Miss Sunshine'!
Best pageant move ever!
| 484 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:40:01pm |
| 485 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:40:53pm |
| 486 |
dummnutzer Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:40:56pm |
re: #211 Cato the Elder
I see a certain "Dummnutzer" takes exception to my pointing out that the one Facebook friend who ditched me following my negative comment about the "Rachel Corrie" charade is from Germany.
Dude, I lived in Germany for ten years, and I know Germans of all stripes. I'm not making a general observations about Germans.
But there is a certain class of young German leftists who enjoy the opportunity to get their Jew-hate on, using Israel's perceived crimes against the Palestinians as a fig-leaf.
I have no problem with your last paragraph; I even agree with it.
But a certain "Cato the Elder" originally posted "I guess it makes sense that he happens to be a German", a quote that can be reasonable parsed as a cheap shot.
Not being a regular to this site, I seem to have misunderstood your position. Sorry. I will try to remove the downding.
| 487 |
prairiefire Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:41:20pm |
| 489 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:42:17pm |
| 491 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:43:16pm |
re: #471 SanFranciscoZionist
It is funny, though, and it also points to the hypocrisy of people who carefully pick and choose the international causes they decide are super, super important, and which ones they don't care about.
There's lots of that, for sure. But a satisfactory resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict would have consequences for the whole Middle East.
| 492 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:44:24pm |
re: #491 Nimed
As in lots of dictatorships go "OH SNAP, WHERE DID OUR DISTRACTION GO?"
| 493 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:44:33pm |
re: #491 Nimed
There's lots of that, for sure. But a satisfactory resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict would have positive consequences for the whole Middle East.
FiXt!
| 494 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:46:02pm |
re: #479 Joo-LiZ
Did you see that the video goes back to Frank Gaffney? Frank Gaffney who recently said that the Missle Defense Logo was ominously close to the crescent and star?
Latma's editor, and the creative force behind the video, is Caroline Glick. Glick is the deputy-managing editor of The Jerusalem Post. But more importantly, she's the Senior Fellow for Middle East Affairs of the Center for Security Policy.
CSP is a far-right think tank founded by Reagan-era Defense Department official and "Scoop" Jackson protege Frank Gaffney.
| 495 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:46:16pm |
re: #492 MagnaniomousCoward
As in lots of dictatorships go "OH SNAP, WHERE DID OUR DISTRACTION GO?"
Eggzactly.
| 496 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:47:09pm |
re: #495 Nimed
Which is also why no solution will be deemed "satisfactory" to them.
| 497 |
Fozzie Bear Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:47:49pm |
re: #440 SanFranciscoZionist
This is true. People who want to waste several hours of their lives throwing up in college dorm bathrooms should be permitted to.
ROFL!
I take it your experience with mushrooms was less than positive?
| 498 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:48:05pm |
re: #494 Stanley Sea
Did you see that the video goes back to Frank Gaffney? Frank Gaffney who recently said that the Missle Defense Logo was ominously close to the crescent and star?
That's quite a list of connections.
I know LATMA is produced by Caroline Glick, and I know she is pretty righty.
She has some extremely hard-hitting columns, but occasionally crosses a line that I don't like.
Her good columns are good though, and I don't see what impact that has on the message -- or effectiveness of the satire -- of this video.
| 499 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:49:03pm |
re: #498 Joo-LiZ
Its the strange bedfellows problem.
What do you do with the evil nut that happens to support you on an important issue?
| 500 |
albusteve Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:49:28pm |
re: #496 MagnaniomousCoward
Which is also why no solution will be deemed "satisfactory" to them.
defeat is for losers....there will be no ME peace in anybody's lifetime posting here...oh, unless Israel is destroyed that is
| 501 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:49:31pm |
re: #498 Joo-LiZ
That's quite a list of connections.
I know LATMA is produced by Caroline Glick, and I know she is pretty righty.
She has some extremely hard-hitting columns, but occasionally crosses a line that I don't like.
Her good columns are good though, and I don't see what impact that has on the message -- or effectiveness of the satire -- of this video.
I know, it's a long reach. But it's interesting. I'm trying to figure out the motives.
| 502 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:50:20pm |
re: #501 Stanley Sea
I doubt it's about motives, but rather that the people in that position tend to be very anti-islam, so they'll tend to also have very strong (and snarky) positions on this particular issue.
| 503 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:50:57pm |
re: #502 windsagio
Wait, I guess that's still a 'motive', I meant its not likely some 'plan' just emotional reaction >>
| 504 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:50:59pm |
re: #498 Joo-LiZ
Yeah this is 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon. Watch the whole episode where the song appears - the pre-opening shots have a part where the anchors argue about the pro-Israeli talking points they are supposed to espouse. There is another episode where they have a "Rightwingers Anonymous" group. They may be on the political right, but not so much that they can't make fun of themselves too.
| 505 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:51:34pm |
re: #501 Stanley Sea
I know, it's a long reach. But it's interesting. I'm trying to figure out the motives.
Motives for this video?
It's a conservative-satire news program.
All of their clips make fun of the news in this way. You should have seen the number they did on Goldstone and on the Palestinian "Days of Rage" (they make fun of the "Palestinian Minister of Rage").
Sometimes it's funny, sometimes not at all.
re: #499 windsagio
I don't know Frank Gaffney or anything about him. I did hear about the whole missile logo outrageous outrage though, and it's pretty ridiculous.
As for Glick herself, I don't have a problem with her. She's a hawk... that's how I view her.
| 506 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:53:13pm |
re: #505 Joo-LiZ
Not sayin' I have a problem, but rather that given her position, etc, its not at all surprising that she'd take that stand ;)
| 507 |
Linden Arden Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:53:21pm |
re: #505 Joo-LiZ
Motives for this video?
I don't know Frank Gaffney or anything about him. I did hear about the whole missile logo outrageous outrage though, and it's pretty ridiculous.
Gaffney is a bigger warmonger than Cheney or John Bolton.
| 508 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:54:48pm |
re: #507 Linden Arden
OT, and with love I just wanna let you know that your avatar totally creeps me out ;)
| 509 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:55:34pm |
re: #101 celticdragon
Don't even get me started on the USS Liberty.
Do you wear the tin foil hat shiny side in or out?
| 510 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:56:11pm |
re: #509 Bagua
Does this come up often whenever I/P is in the news?
| 511 |
MagnaniomousCoward Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:57:59pm |
re: #510 JasonA
No, because it usually isn't about ships.
| 512 |
Linden Arden Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:58:18pm |
re: #508 windsagio
OT, and with love I just wanna let you know that your avatar totally creeps me out ;)
Thanks.
Its a beaut, isn't it?
I love honesty. You have won a fan here.
| 513 |
Renaissance_Man Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:58:24pm |
re: #499 windsagio
Its the strange bedfellows problem.
What do you do with the evil nut that happens to support you on an important issue?
Nominate him for Senator from Kentucky?
| 515 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:59:13pm |
| 516 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 3:59:40pm |
| 517 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:01:13pm |
re: #508 windsagio
OT, and with love I just wanna let you know that your avatar totally creeps me out ;)
Speaking of avatars... do you have a different one for every week of the year? One of these days you and WUB are going to show up in the same outfit and it's going to be awkwarrrd!
| 518 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:01:44pm |
re: #517 JasonA
Lol its just me, I like exposing people to pictures I think are cool :D
| 519 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:01:56pm |
re: #517 JasonA
Speaking of avatars... do you have a different one for every week of the year? One of these days you and WUB are going to show up in the same outfit and it's going to be awkwarrrd!
Oh that won't happen, I use my own art and stuff as avatars. Or the occasional metal reference :D
| 520 |
Linden Arden Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:03:11pm |
re: #516 windsagio
haaha np :D
Whats that from, anyways?
What is your avatar?
It looks like a faint watercolor from the Leroy Neiman era.
| 521 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:03:27pm |
re: #518 windsagio
Lol its just me, I like exposing people to pictures I think are cool :D
Yeah! This one I love!
Not crazy about the purple one from yesterday.
| 522 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:03:59pm |
re: #440 SanFranciscoZionist
This is true. People who want to waste several hours of their lives throwing up in college dorm bathrooms should be permitted to.
heehee I've done okay with them!
| 523 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:04:21pm |
| 524 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:04:46pm |
re: #472 EmmmieG
On the subject of feminine beauty, I had a cool random idea:
You know those horrid child pageants? I'm going to hold one.
It's going to be the Junior Mad Scientist/Evil Genuius Pageant.
Participants (not limited to any one gender) will be graded on their evil laugh, their moniker (they have to have one), and their style (extra points for hair in an unnatural color, but only if it's temporary). Participants will need to present a small science demonstration, along with a plan for taking it global.
I think we would have a ball. Could you imagine the catwalk?
THAT would be rad. :D
| 525 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:04:59pm |
Hey, I totally missed this yesterday.
Glenn Beck's new book club pick: Nazi sympathizer who praised Hitler and denounced the Allies
When World War II began in 1939, Dilling was part of the national network of anti-Semitics, anti-Communists, and Nazi sympathizers such as Father Charles Coughlin, Reverend Gerald L. K. Smith, Reverend Gerald Winrod, and William Dudley Pelley. Material generated by Nazi organizations in Germany to inspire race hated and exploit dissatisfaction in the United States found its way into Dilling's publications. She spoke at rallies hosted by the leading U.S. Nazi organization, the German-American Bund, and had traveled to Germany, pronouncing the country as flourishing under Hitler.Dilling called for appeasing Germany; she blamed the war on Jews and Communists and accused the Roosevelt administration of being controlled by Jewish Communists. ... After Pearl Harbor, Dilling resisted wartime rationing and denounced the Allies.
| 527 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:05:20pm |
re: #524 WindUpBird
The gallery would be scary tho', a bunch of aging hipsters and second generation steampunk hippies >>
| 529 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:06:25pm |
re: #517 JasonA
Speaking of avatars... do you have a different one for every week of the year? One of these days you and WUB are going to show up in the same outfit and it's going to be awkwarrrd!
...said Captain America in suspenders.
/
| 530 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:06:36pm |
re: #525 JasonA
Aah Beck Beck.
I keep hoping that he's gonna come forward and explain that his whole career is some kind of Dadaist performance piece.
... But I guess if that were really the case he woudlnt' admit it, would he?
| 531 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:07:04pm |
| 532 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:07:18pm |
Musical Interlude
The Sounds -- Queen of Apology
Thievery Corporation -- Lebanese Blonde
They are pretty different, but I like'em both.
| 533 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:07:56pm |
re: #527 windsagio
The gallery would be scary tho', a bunch of aging hipsters and second generation steampunk hippies >>
Steampunk hippies! I prefer the steampunk goths:
God they're a blast to see live :D
| 534 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:07:59pm |
re: #532 Joo-LiZ
A friend introduced me last night to some really good electronic music that I can unfortunately never ever post here :(
| 535 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:08:07pm |
| 536 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:08:36pm |
re: #533 WindUpBird
Everybody loves cool old-timey outfits!
| 537 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:08:40pm |
| 538 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:08:51pm |
re: #532 Joo-LiZ
Thievery corp is good stuff, also a fan of Suns of Arqa and Amon Tobin (when I'm not headbanging)
| 539 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:08:53pm |
re: #535 JasonA
haha I was wondering too, its come up a few times now :D
| 540 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:09:20pm |
re: #510 JasonA
Does this come up often whenever I/P is in the news?
It is a favourite of anti-Semites and anti-Semitic conspiracy nuts. As though this one tragic mistake, which happened 43 years ago in the fog of a desperate war for survival, defines Israel.
| 541 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:13:52pm |
Meanwhile in further Flotilla News:
Israel won't apologize to Turkey for the deaths
A top official in the Foreign Ministry, who wished to remain anonymous, said that the Turkish demand for an official apology was mainly an excuse to allow Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's to cut diplomatic ties with Israel.
The foreign ministry officials said that they were surprised by the request for an apology which came from Turkey's Ambassador to Washington Namik Tan, as the demand was not relayed through any other diplomatic channels.
Tan, who was Turkey's ambassador to Israel before his U.S. appointment, was known to be a supporter of Israel, the officials said.
"If he is speaking like this it is probably an official order he received from top officials in the Turkish government," an official said. "It seems that the deterioration is continuing and a complete cut in diplomatic ties is only a matter of time."
Despite Ehud Barak okaying a probe on the decision making in the Flotilla Fiasco, Ban Ki Moon wants the former PM of New Zealand to be a new Goldstone:
United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon has conveyed a proposal to Israel to set up an international commission of inquiry into the raid on the Gaza-bound aid flotilla a week ago.
The head of the committee would be former New Zealand prime minister Geoffrey Palmer, an expert on maritime law. Committee members would include representatives from the United States, Turkey and Israel.
Senior officials at the Foreign Ministry said Israel should consider the idea favorably.
Top officials in Jerusalem and European diplomats said Ban’s preliminary proposal, which he made in a phone call to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, does not precisely define the committee’s mandate. But it is certain to consider whether Israel’s takeover of the ship the Mavi Marmara contravened international law.
On the one hand, I'm against this denial of Israeli state sovereignty. All this amounts to is saying "Israel can no longer be trusted to investigate itself" -- fundamentally a delegitimization of Israel. On the other hand, I think it would great for Israel to be vindicated, and on the PR front turning it down would look horrible. It was arguably a mistake to boycott Goldstone.
| 542 |
Targetpractice Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:14:21pm |
re: #535 JasonA
Why does Nimed hate (Captain) America?
/
Because they moved filming from LA to London for the latest movie.
/
| 543 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:15:03pm |
re: #541 Joo-LiZ
I should add, the verdict will undoubtedly depend on whether there is an underlying premise that the Blockade is illegal because Gaza is somehow "occupied".
That is the single most common legal failing in all UN rulings/investigations from which all other falsehoods stem.
| 544 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:15:27pm |
re: #540 Bagua
It is a favourite of anti-Semites and anti-Semitic conspiracy nuts. As though this one tragic mistake, which happened 43 years ago in the fog of a desperate war for survival, defines Israel.
I never understood what the conspiracy theory was supposed to be here. Israel would sink USS Liberty deliberately with what purpose? Just for the heck of it?
| 545 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:15:37pm |
re: #541 Joo-LiZ
Legal questions aside, I'd question any country doing a great job of investigating themselves, unless really forced to.
I might be a cynic tho :p
| 546 |
Targetpractice Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:16:10pm |
re: #541 Joo-LiZ
Meanwhile in further Flotilla News:
Israel won't apologize to Turkey for the deathsOn the one hand, I'm against this denial of Israeli state sovereignty. All this amounts to is saying "Israel can no longer be trusted to investigate itself" -- fundamentally a delegitimization of Israel. On the other hand, I think it would great for Israel to be vindicated, and on the PR front turning it down would look horrible. It was arguably a mistake to boycott Goldstone.
Yeah, but what's the last UN investigation into anything where Israel was viewed as the "aggressor" that came out as vindicating them? I wouldn't trust that pack of jackals as far as I could throw them.
| 547 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:16:15pm |
re: #543 Joo-LiZ
Wait, if the UN can't determine whether its legal, who can?
| 548 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:16:43pm |
re: #101 celticdragon
Don't even get me started on the USS Liberty.
As far as I am concerned, Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah and the Israeli government can all rot in Hell. They deserve each other.
What a stunning display of moral equivalence and ignorance. So the democratically elected government of Israel is the same as a savage terrorist group?
Replete with a classic blood libel.
And I notice this sickening post got an upding.
| 549 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:17:18pm |
re: #548 Bagua
What a stunning display of moral equivalence and ignorance. So the democratically elected government of Israel is the same as a savage terrorist group?
Replete with a classic blood libel.
And I notice this sickening post got an upding.
Bagua, please read on. Celtic apologized.
| 550 |
Linden Arden Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:18:15pm |
I'm listening to some old Lords of Acid.
Any fans here? They punish the fake world.
| 551 |
albusteve Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:19:06pm |
re: #543 Joo-LiZ
I should add, the verdict will undoubtedly depend on whether there is an underlying premise that the Blockade is illegal because Gaza is somehow "occupied".
That is the single most common legal failing in all UN rulings/investigations from which all other falsehoods stem.
I hate the UN...time long past for Israel to simply be polite but essentially ignore them, same with the EU
| 552 |
ryannon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:19:08pm |
re: #549 Stanley Sea
For getting into a tangle with Cato. For the post itself, not so much.
| 553 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:19:11pm |
re: #547 windsagio
Wait, if the UN can't determine whether its legal, who can?
It's a very prickly thing. There is a difference between popularity votes (the majority of the things that come out of the General Assembly, Human Rights Council, Security Council (minus vetoes)) and the International Criminal Court. But even the ICC has shown a tendency to dismiss Israeli self-defence by first stating that Israel is occupying the Palestinians (without qualifying that) and all their verdicts stemmed from that. The dissenting Jurist opinion pointed this bias out.
Fortunately, Israel has never been taken to court on anything. But what do you do when there truly is so much bias against you? Israelis have top-notch lawyers, and are insanely careful to be withing the letter of the law in every situation.
| 554 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:19:19pm |
re: #535 JasonA
Why does Nimed hate (Captain) America?
/
In my defense, I hate The Human Torch even more.
| 555 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:20:29pm |
re: #549 Stanley Sea
Bagua, please read on. Celtic apologized.
Apologized for what she said to Cato, not for her unpopular views of Middle East issues, which I believe is what Bagua refers to.
| 556 |
ryannon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:20:45pm |
re: #549 Stanley Sea
Bagua, please read on. Celtic apologized.
Come to think of it, so did Helen Thomas.
| 557 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:20:46pm |
re: #544 Nimed
I never understood what the conspiracy theory was supposed to be here. Israel would sink USS Liberty deliberately with what purpose? Just for the heck of it?
Anti-Semitic blood libels never make much sense. The classic one was that Jews used the blood of christian children to bake their un-leavened bread for Passover. Of course it was absurd and unthinkable. As is the USS Liberty blood libel and every other lie that the Jew haters dream up. This has been going on for centuries.
| 558 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:20:50pm |
re: #553 Joo-LiZ
My point is more that they're the accepted arbiter of international law.
If they find the blockade illegal, it'd be a mighty blow to the justification.
| 559 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:21:17pm |
| 560 |
albusteve Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:21:18pm |
re: #547 windsagio
Wait, if the UN can't determine whether its legal, who can?
the UN has nothing to do with the law, any law...not their realm
| 561 |
Digital Display Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:21:38pm |
re: #550 Linden Arden
I'm listening to some old Lords of Acid.
Any fans here? They punish the fake world.
No..Thanks for the tip..I'll check them out..
Do you like System of the down?
| 562 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:22:07pm |
| 563 |
Linden Arden Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:22:45pm |
re: #551 albusteve
I hate the UN...time long past for Israel to simply be polite but essentially ignore them, same with the EU
Israel wouldn't exist without the UN.
I say this as a strong supporter of Israel.
| 564 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:22:52pm |
re: #541 Joo-LiZ
Meanwhile in further Flotilla News:
Israel won't apologize to Turkey for the deathsOn the one hand, I'm against this denial of Israeli state sovereignty. All this amounts to is saying "Israel can no longer be trusted to investigate itself" -- fundamentally a delegitimization of Israel. On the other hand, I think it would great for Israel to be vindicated, and on the PR front turning it down would look horrible. It was arguably a mistake to boycott Goldstone.
I disagree with you here -- we should never trust a State to investigate itself in this sort of situation. Israel is one of the parts of a conflict, after all. Third parties are the way to go.
| 565 |
albusteve Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:23:29pm |
re: #558 windsagio
My point is more that they're the accepted arbiter of international law.If they find the blockade illegal, it'd be a mighty blow to the justification.
never heard of such a thing...got some links?
| 566 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:24:19pm |
re: #564 Nimed
I disagree with you here -- we should never trust a State to investigate itself in this sort of situation. Israel is one of the parts of a conflict, after all. Third parties are the way to go.
The thing is that it's not the army investigating itself. It is a completely separate branch of the government, which doesn't answer the military chain of command of political structure at all. Israel has a totally independent (and often activist) judiciary.
Would the US accept a third party investigation into the Predator drone attacks?
| 567 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:24:22pm |
re: #555 wrenchwench
Apologized for what she said to Cato, not for her unpopular views of Middle East issues, which I believe is what Bagua refers to.
OK, OK, Celtic is bad. Sorry.
| 568 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:24:27pm |
re: #549 Stanley Sea
Bagua, please read on. Celtic apologized.
She didn't retract her anti-Semitic content rants, just sorry she got mad at Cato.
| 569 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:25:20pm |
| 570 |
albusteve Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:26:04pm |
re: #563 Linden Arden
Israel wouldn't exist without the UN.
I say this as a strong supporter of Israel.
my how times change eh?
| 571 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:26:07pm |
re: #559 windsagio
Which one?!
(Been reading wikipedia entries on comics again!)
There's more than one? In that case, I hate Johnny. He was always something of a whiner and a fuck up.
| 572 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:26:35pm |
re: #552 ryannon
For getting into a tangle with Cato. For the post itself, not so much.
Exactly, CelticDragonJewHater has shown her true colors, as has WindSagio who updinged her disgusting rant and heckles ever pro-Israel post, as he is doing now.
| 573 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:26:56pm |
re: #558 windsagio
My point is more that they're the accepted arbiter of international law.
If they find the blockade illegal, it'd be a mighty blow to the justification.
I'm actually very interested in this discussion.
One of the toughest things for me to argue against is the definite antipathy of the UN and international community to Israel.
People objectively assume these "arbiters" of international events are objective, and if they find Israel guilty/evil/racist they must be so.
The best I can come up with is getting into details of how the votes work, that there are over 50 countries in the Islamic bloc that form an automatic anti-Israel vote, plus the politics of reciprocal protection between countries like Russia, China and the Muslim bloc.
It's a tough argument to make, I feel very feeble/like I'm just whining about the bias of "everyone"
| 574 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:27:05pm |
Created in 1945, the United Nations is responsible for much of the current framework of international law
| 575 |
albusteve Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:27:24pm |
re: #564 Nimed
I disagree with you here -- we should never trust a State to investigate itself in this sort of situation. Israel is one of the parts of a conflict, after all. Third parties are the way to go.
an investigation will take one hour, case closed...in other words it's another scam
| 576 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:27:44pm |
re: #571 Nimed
There was the older golden age Robot human Torch.
| 577 |
albusteve Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:28:11pm |
| 578 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:28:24pm |
| 579 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:28:55pm |
re: #573 Joo-LiZ
Its a dilemma, as you say, altho' thats part of the reason for the Security council of course.
The problem is that there's no fair way to deny a recognizable sovereign nation of its right to a vote, given the very precepts of the UN.
| 580 |
abaleh Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:29:15pm |
re: #426 ryannon
my reply was also a statement of my own personal taste, didn't intend for it to be an argument.
| 581 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:29:17pm |
re: #577 albusteve
didn't think so...you are making things up
Would you like it if they were not making things up?
| 582 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:29:24pm |
re: #572 Bagua
Exactly, Celtic
DragonJewHater has shown her true colors, as has WindSagio who updinged her disgusting rant and heckles ever pro-Israel post, as he is doing now.
Witch hunts at LGF.
This is getting ridiculous.
| 583 |
albusteve Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:29:58pm |
re: #581 windsagio
Would you like it if they were not making things up?
who?...post in more complete thoughts
| 584 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:30:27pm |
re: #582 Stanley Sea
Witch hunts at LGF.
This is getting ridiculous.
Except the "mob" isn't really following the witch hunt. Bagua may think windsagio is a JewHater. I don't.
I may not always agree... but you get my point.
| 585 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:30:42pm |
re: #572 Bagua
See, I'd rather listen to Joo-Liz and intelligent conversation.
| 586 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:31:05pm |
| 587 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:32:12pm |
re: #584 Joo-LiZ
Except the "mob" isn't really following the witch hunt. Bagua may think windsagio is a JewHater. I don't.
I may not always agree... but you get my point.
You are a great voice. I thank you.
| 589 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:32:14pm |
re: #584 Joo-LiZ
Thanks :D There's been alot of name-slinging around lately so its nice :D
| 590 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:32:47pm |
Something else I hate to admit, but I've noticed more and more:
As much as I hate the Ha'aretz editorial slant, it is a better paper than JPost (and has a better website)
| 591 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:33:44pm |
re: #566 Joo-LiZ
The thing is that it's not the army investigating itself. It is a completely separate branch of the government, which doesn't answer the military chain of command of political structure at all. Israel has a totally independent (and often activist) judiciary.
Would the US accept a third party investigation into the Predator drone attacks?
To answer the last question, I believe that, ideally, it should.
Oh, I'm not questioning the independence of Israel's judiciary branch. It's just a matter of principle -- nations should not judge themselves in international conflicts, there's too much temptation involved. Besides, being cleared by an independent body will be much better for Israel in the eyes of the world.
| 592 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:33:54pm |
re: #582 Stanley Sea
Witch hunts at LGF.
This is getting ridiculous.
Use whatever label you enjoy, I'm making a valid observation. Ranting about the USS Liberty and equating the Israeli government with terrorist groups speaks for it self. Showing approval of this bile also speaks for itself. Other opinions are welcome. But I see what I see.
| 593 |
Linden Arden Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:34:00pm |
Israel exists due to the Eminent Domain policies of the UN (which I support).
I know -right wingers hate both Eminent Domain and the UN - but they loves them some Israel.
Go figure that incongruous bullshit out.
| 594 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:34:21pm |
re: #589 windsagio
Thanks :D There's been alot of name-slinging around lately so its nice :D
That is exactly what I'm commenting on.
People deciding what "side" everyone is on, ragging them for it, and reporting their ding watching.
| 595 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:34:50pm |
re: #591 Nimed
At risk of getting another fight going, when's the last time a police review board found an officer who shot somebody guilty of wrongdoing?
Same thing >>
| 596 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:35:17pm |
re: #594 Stanley Sea
People deciding what "side" everyone is on, ragging them for it, and reporting their ding watching.
*shiftyeye* >>
| 597 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:35:18pm |
re: #590 Joo-LiZ
Something else I hate to admit, but I've noticed more and more:
As much as I hate the Ha'aretz editorial slant, it is a better paper than JPost (and has a better website)
Well, that's what I've been reading, I'm hoping it's a reasonable source.
| 598 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:36:22pm |
re: #597 Stanley Sea
Its more liberal than the Jpost, so people around often have a problem with what it has to say, if that makes sense.
| 599 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:36:44pm |
re: #597 Stanley Sea
Well, that's what I've been reading, I'm hoping it's a reasonable source.
They were recently embroiled in a rather large controversy, with an Israeli woman who had stolen thousands of top secret documents and leaked them to a Ha'aretz reporter. Ha'aretz backed her and their reporter (hiding in London) completely, which is rather despicable.
They also *do* have a lefty agenda. But for day-to-day news, they seem to be the better resource.
| 600 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:37:17pm |
re: #584 Joo-LiZ
Except the "mob" isn't really following the witch hunt. Bagua may think windsagio is a JewHater. I don't.
I may not always agree... but you get my point.
I didn't say windsagio was a Jew-hater, but I did say he showed his true colors by showing approval of that anti-Israel rant by Celtic.
| 601 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:38:07pm |
re: #599 Joo-LiZ
Sounds like something an American Paper would do >>
Well, 'cept the WaPo let their reporter rot I guess.
| 602 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:38:22pm |
re: #600 Bagua
I didn't say windsagio was a Jew-hater, but I did say he showed his true colors by showing approval of that anti-Israel rant by Celtic.
I definitely don't like the upding on that one.
I guess I just don't care as much about who dings what, and which way.
| 603 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:38:41pm |
re: #599 Joo-LiZ
They were recently embroiled in a rather large controversy, with an Israeli woman who had stolen thousands of top secret documents and leaked them to a Ha'aretz reporter. Ha'aretz backed her and their reporter (hiding in London) completely, which is rather despicable.
They also *do* have a lefty agenda. But for day-to-day news, they seem to be the better resource.
Wow.
This is what's interesting to me in this situation, there appears to be a left/right view of Israel as well. Of course there is, but here sometimes it tends to be the right view of Israeli politics.
All I can say is my mind is expanding, and that's good.
| 604 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:39:05pm |
re: #602 Joo-LiZ
You should never have to justify a ding, but I will say the part I found interesting/worthy of Approval wasn't the Liberty bit.
| 605 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:39:56pm |
re: #603 Stanley Sea
Israel has a very strong left internally really.
At risk of offending people, I'd say that most of the major parties in Israel are to the left of LGF.
| 606 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:40:33pm |
re: #604 windsagio
You should never have to justify a ding,
You may have to someday. I've seen Charles come down on people for it.
| 607 |
Gus Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:40:53pm |
Whatever jurisdiction there would be within the United Nations it would fall under the "Rome Statute" of the International Criminal Court. The United Nations has no jurisdiction.
The United States, and Israel have withdrawn (rightfully so) their signatures to the "Rome Statute."
By the way, there have been no convictions from the "Rome Statute" of the ICC since it's creation.
| 609 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:42:05pm |
re: #602 Joo-LiZ
I definitely don't like the upding on that one.
I guess I just don't care as much about who dings what, and which way.
This is an ongoing discussion, every-time I, or anyone posts something pro-Israel, they get a flurry of objections from windsagio. Then to approve of that anti-Semitic rant by Celtic is just more of the same. That and calling other lizards "bigots" for highlighting Radical Islamic Terrorists and supporting Israel.
| 611 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:42:53pm |
re: #603 Stanley Sea
Wow.
This is what's interesting to me in this situation, there appears to be a left/right view of Israel as well. Of course there is, but here sometimes it tends to be the right view of Israeli politics.
All I can say is my mind is expanding, and that's good.
Yeah, Israel actually has a huge split in the right/left politics. For the first 20 years or so, they were all Labor/Socially inclined.
As is often noted, criticism of the Israeli government is most common and loudest in Israel itself. The academics in Israel -- my god, some of the things they say are just the worst.
The Knesset (Parliament) is also much free-er with the criticism than anything Congress could say before calls of traitor were heard.
US Support of Israel does tend to support the "right" Israelly view, which I happen to approve, but that was part of the impetus for the formation of JStreet.
Israel is a democracy, and supports a plethora of views (they have parties that mix and match along the Nationalist/Socialist spectra, Religious/Secular Spectra, Arab/Israeli spectras), and that is part of what Israelis mean when they say they are a "democracy". They truly are.
| 612 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:43:51pm |
re: #611 Joo-LiZ
Which paper had the really funny headline after the flotilla raid "What to do with the 7 idiots?"
It'd be great if US papers could be that feisty :D
| 613 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:44:06pm |
re: #610 windsagio
"Every" is a hell of a word.
You are right, "nearly every." Hundreds of comments.
| 614 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:44:42pm |
re: #611 Joo-LiZ
Really, thank you for this info. I try to grasp it by reading the news/opinions, but it really is better to hear it explained poster to poster. make sense?
| 615 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:45:26pm |
re: #611 Joo-LiZ
You should post on these things more often, its a breath of fresh air.
(I remember having the same thought last time too, its nice to have somebody that you can actually disagree with without a huge firefight starting)
| 616 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:45:59pm |
re: #615 windsagio
You should post on these things more often, its a breath of fresh air.
(I remember having the same thought last time too, its nice to have somebody that you can actually disagree with without a huge firefight starting)
Then stop posting with lighter fluid...
| 617 |
albusteve Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:46:15pm |
re: #609 Bagua
This is an ongoing discussion, every-time I, or anyone posts something pro-Israel, they get a flurry of objections from windsagio. Then to approve of that anti-Semitic rant by Celtic is just more of the same. That and calling other lizards "bigots" for highlighting Radical Islamic Terrorists and supporting Israel.
OTOH it's decent comedy...some people here throw around racist and bigot like it's their own personal new toy....which it is, but it's backfired and they exposed themselves as bigots by their very own standard
| 618 |
Judith Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:46:24pm |
re: #73 Renaissance_Man
Has it occurred to you that one side is lying and the other side is telling the truth? Such things do hapen. The truth doesn't always lie somewhere in between.
| 619 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:46:45pm |
re: #600 Bagua
I didn't say windsagio was a Jew-hater, but I did say he showed his true colors by showing approval of that anti-Israel rant by Celtic.
To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And if you're constantly looking for people's "true colors", you will eventually find them even if they're not there.
| 620 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:46:56pm |
re: #617 albusteve
OTOH it's decent comedy...some people here throw around racist and bigot like it's their own personal new toy...which it is, but it's backfired and they exposed themselves as bigots by their very own standard
Good point.
| 621 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:47:09pm |
re: #612 windsagio
Which paper had the really funny headline after the flotilla raid "What to do with the 7 idiots?"
It'd be great if US papers could be that feisty :D
No clue.
***
So nobody has any advice for how I could defuse the claim that the "whole world" knows Israel is wrong, just look at what the UN the "highest arbiter" of these things says about them? Or is my tactic really the only way?
re: #614 Stanley Sea
Really, thank you for this info. I try to grasp it by reading the news/opinions, but it really is better to hear it explained poster to poster. make sense?
Yup, I know exactly what you mean.
| 622 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:48:35pm |
re: #621 Joo-LiZ
Well do any countries NOT condemn the raid? If so you're in luck!
Otherwise damned if I know :p
I think most people in the US are more likely to support Israel on this than condemn that, but I'm also not sure that does you much good :P
| 623 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:48:37pm |
re: #619 Nimed
To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And if you're constantly looking for people's "true colors", you will eventually find them even if they're not there.
The evidence is right here on this thread, and almost every recent thread.One doesn't have to look hard and several others have made the same observation.
| 624 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:49:02pm |
| 625 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:49:09pm |
re: #615 windsagio
You should post on these things more often, its a breath of fresh air.
(I remember having the same thought last time too, its nice to have somebody that you can actually disagree with without a huge firefight starting)
Although, just to snatch the carrot out from in front of you, there is VERY good reason that Israeli politics has lurched to the right over the last decade.
It's not just some ephemeral radical shift toward nationalism. It was a fundamental reality check in the Oslo years, in which many of the pillars of the peace-movement were pulled out from under them, along with the dramatic success of Bibi Netanyahu's conservative financial policies which helped propel Israel into the OECD.
| 626 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:50:30pm |
re: #622 windsagio
Well do any countries NOT condemn the raid? If so you're in luck!
Otherwise damned if I know :p
I think most people in the US are more likely to support Israel on this than condemn that, but I'm also not sure that does you much good :P
That's one of the things that gets me to despair as well. Why do so few agree to look behind official logos and authority? Why do so few refuse to use common sense and good judgement?
They can't see the subversion of these international bodies, even as it is laid out in front of their eyes.
| 627 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:51:30pm |
re: #625 Joo-LiZ
And, sadly, the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin.
| 628 |
albusteve Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:51:50pm |
if the UN declares it, it must be true
(mistake number one)
| 629 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:53:01pm |
re: #627 Obdicut
And, sadly, the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin.
The assassination of Yitzhak Rabin was a big shock to Israel, because it was the first time Jew and turned against Jew in that way.
But even so, his views of the Palestinian are much closer in line with Bibi Netanyahu's today than with Ehud Barak, Ehud Olmert, or even Ariel Sharon. Rabin was to the right of them all when it came to Oslo and what Israel should give up.
| 630 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:53:08pm |
| 631 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:53:13pm |
re: #625 Joo-LiZ
I have a friend in Israel (admittedly a leftist) that has an interesting but different interpretation of the causes of that.
Admittedly I don't have the strong interest in the subject that you do, so take this as second hand at best.
His basic argument is that the cause of the drive to the right is more about the fact that the left and center coalitions, which are larger than the major right coalition and are more 'pro peace', tend to fight with each other fiercely, and get in trouble with each other. This leads to a general discontent in the electorate 'cuz of the ineffectiveness, which leads to the right gaining more power again.
The other thing, and lets be frank here, having missiles thrown at you tends to be radicalizing.
| 632 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:53:28pm |
re: #168 Racer X
I gotta say, the past week has been telling. Charles has always been a staunch defender of Israel - and I applaud you for that sir.
Some of the newer Lizards have shown their true colors and it is not pretty.
Quoted for truth.
| 633 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:54:09pm |
| 634 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:54:10pm |
re: #623 Bagua
The evidence is right here on this thread, and almost every recent thread.One doesn't have to look hard and several others have made the same observation.
You are not a fit judge of such things, since you've called me a tool of the Palestinian Authority. To which your only response has been you must have had a reason. You seem to not be able to accept that you were wrong in your judgement of me.
It is obvious and clear that I am not a tool of the Palestinian Authority. Nor are many of the people you lay accusations against what you say they are.
Spend less time accusing people of being things, and more time making arguments. It's been very nice to see how well you've been spending your time and energy updating everyone on the BP crisis. You've done LGF a huge service by doing so.
| 635 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:54:22pm |
The evidence is right here on this thread, and almost every recent thread.One doesn't have to look hard and several others have made the same observation.
Yeah, I've seen the gang up. So what to do? Kick someone with other views off LGF? hmmm.
It's human nature to have a bunch of diverse people on a middle of the road blog. If we intelligently answer opposing ideas we are better off.
I came to LGF for the middle of the road conversations. I'm getting frustrated.
I've read lately more than 5 times, "well now I know who they are"
| 636 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:54:57pm |
re: #626 Joo-LiZ
I might posit that its not actually subversion of international bodies, but rather that Israel isn't as blameless in this as we like to pretend.
The arab world aside (who are, I agree, inherently prejudiced here), its vanishingly unlikely that some kind of subversion or corruption would be behind such overwhelming negativity.
| 637 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:55:36pm |
re: #636 windsagio
I might posit that its not actually subversion of international bodies, but rather that Israel isn't as blameless in this as we like to pretend.
The arab world aside (who are, I agree, inherently prejudiced here), its vanishingly unlikely that some kind of subversion or corruption would be behind such overwhelming negativity.
I can't comment about the General Assembly, but the Human Rights Council is definitely being subverted.
| 638 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:56:13pm |
re: #623 Bagua
The evidence is right here on this thread, and almost every recent thread.One doesn't have to look hard and several others have made the same observation.
windsagio has already responded to that -- and he didn't have to. Why don't you believe him?
By the way, I sometimes disagree with windsagio's opinions (I caught the last 2 disagreements after the discussions). But I don't conclude that there's anything sinister about being (in my opinion) wrong.
| 639 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:57:50pm |
re: #637 Joo-LiZ
Let me ask you seriously. Are you sure of that, or do you just feel that way because they're attacking something dear to you?
We all have our blind spots (Lord knows I do), and sometimes its hard to tell the difference.
(and I hope I don't offend, because its nice to actually be able to TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS)
| 640 |
Tats66 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:58:04pm |
One test I always personally use is this: What would not only I do, what would we (USA) do if faced with the same delimma(s)? I think Isreal does do what we would do, and in spite of cries of how brutal they are, I think many times they do alot LESS than what we as the USA would. Just MHO
| 641 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:58:13pm |
It's a freaking witch hunt. I will not stop classifying it as such.
| 642 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:58:17pm |
re: #629 Joo-LiZ
I can't speak to Sharon, who I have a personal dislike for that biases me against him. But you're certainly right about the others.
I think there was a real re-radicalization of the Muslim world during and after Oslo. I'm glad that more wasn't given away at Oslo, in hindsight. The continued malfeasance and corruption of the Muslim governments in Middle East is fertile breeding ground for the Wahhabis and other extremists.
| 643 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:58:23pm |
re: #631 windsagio
I have a friend in Israel (admittedly a leftist) that has an interesting but different interpretation of the causes of that.
Admittedly I don't have the strong interest in the subject that you do, so take this as second hand at best.
His basic argument is that the cause of the drive to the right is more about the fact that the left and center coalitions, which are larger than the major right coalition and are more 'pro peace', tend to fight with each other fiercely, and get in trouble with each other. This leads to a general discontent in the electorate 'cuz of the ineffectiveness, which leads to the right gaining more power again.
The other thing, and lets be frank here, having missiles thrown at you tends to be radicalizing.
Happens to all parties. There are too many for real majorities, so there is always a coalition formed. Bibi got screwed in the mid '90s by Righty parties, which is why he tried so hard this time to include a Lefty party to get a more "centrist" coalition.
Israeli politics is a nasty thing
One of the major parties is also very hard to pin down. Kadima is formed by former Likud ministers who joined with Sharon to form a new party to get the Gaza withdrawal done. They are generally considered left of Likud, but are they centrist or are they really lefty? It's hard to say.
| 644 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:58:36pm |
re: #629 Joo-LiZ
The assassination of Yitzhak Rabin was a big shock to Israel, because it was the first time Jew and turned against Jew in that way.
But even so, his views of the Palestinian are much closer in line with Bibi Netanyahu's today than with Ehud Barak, Ehud Olmert, or even Ariel Sharon. Rabin was to the right of them all when it came to Oslo and what Israel should give up.
That must be why he was killed by right wing fanatics for giving up too much, and why just prior to his death Rabin labeled Netanyahu's rhetoric as provoking violence:
Likud Leader (and future Prime Minister) Benjamin Netanyahu accused Rabin’s government of being “removed from Jewish tradition…and Jewish values.” Netanyahu addressed protesters of the Oslo movement at rallies where posters portrayed Rabin in a Nazi SS uniform or being target by in the crosshairs of a sniper.
| 645 |
Targetpractice Sat, Jun 5, 2010 4:59:32pm |
re: #637 Joo-LiZ
I can't comment about the General Assembly, but the Human Rights Council is definitely being subverted.
It's only fitting that it would follow in the footsteps of its predecessor, which was essentially a soapbox upon which some of the world's worst human rights violators would haul themselves and then launch into tirades about how countries like Israel were guilty of practically every known crime against humanity.
| 646 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:00:05pm |
re: #634 Obdicut
What is this "tool" thing you keep pulling up? What was the context, how long ago?
You hold a grudge like an elephant and you cherry pick words out of long conversations to make flimsy points. Either drop it or explain it.
I'm clear what I'm objecting to here, it is in this thread, on this topic and recent topics. You have been desperately trying to discredit me for several months.
| 648 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:01:40pm |
re: #638 Nimed
now I"m curious tho', what were the disagreements? :D
| 649 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:01:57pm |
| 651 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:02:32pm |
re: #639 windsagio
Let me ask you seriously. Are you sure of that, or do you just feel that way because they're attacking something dear to you?
We all have our blind spots (Lord knows I do), and sometimes its hard to tell the difference.
(and I hope I don't offend, because its nice to actually be able to TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS)
I honestly believe that.
I have spoken with Hillel Neuer, the head of UN Watch which is an NGO with observer status at the UNHRC, and I've had the history explained to me.
Some of the things these countries do is 100% subversion. He told me of a time when there was supposed to be a hearing on the living conditions in Cuba, and he arrived with some Cuban dissidents as the doors opened to sign up for the 10 minutes slots in the hearing -- but they were all already filled out. Apparently Cuba has a number of GONGO (Government-Organized NGOs) that they smuggled in at night, before the doors were open, to take up all the spots. During the hearing, all the council heard about was how great life in Cuba was and how much they all love Castro.
There is a committee which arbitrates who is accredited and who is not, and they are headed by some of the worst rights abusers, Sudan, Libya, Cuba, etc.
| 652 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:03:07pm |
re: #636 windsagio
That's not true, because of economics. The industrialized world depends on the Middle Eastern nations. They do not depend on Israel. This has a corruptive influence.
In addition, Israel serves as a nation that the Western countries can point to and shout about their civil rights, while they continue selling arms to everyone all over the world. It'd be a hell of a lot easier to believe France, Germany, and Britain's condemnation of 'human rights abuses' if they didn't sell arms so profligately, and if Vietnam wasn't so very recent. And yes, I well know the US is by far the largest supplier of arms, which is also shameful.
Scapegoating is a real phenomenon; it is more likely, when seven people condemn one, for an eight person to join in on condemnation. It does not depend on any actual real actions being taken.
| 653 |
abaleh Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:03:07pm |
re: #631 windsagio
I have a friend in Israel (admittedly a leftist) that has an interesting but different interpretation of the causes of that.
Admittedly I don't have the strong interest in the subject that you do, so take this as second hand at best.
His basic argument is that the cause of the drive to the right is more about the fact that the left and center coalitions, which are larger than the major right coalition and are more 'pro peace', tend to fight with each other fiercely, and get in trouble with each other. This leads to a general discontent in the electorate 'cuz of the ineffectiveness, which leads to the right gaining more power again.
The other thing, and lets be frank here, having missiles thrown at you tends to be radicalizing.
As an ex Israeli Lefty (I consider myself centrist now) I can say that the reason some of my friends and myself have shifted has been the disillusionment with the Palestinians ever really wanting peace. While buses were exploding I was sure that if we just gave them their land back they'd want to live in peace with us. But after the Gaza and Lebanon withdrawels ended up bringing more violence, I decided the heck with them. we should do whatever it takes to defend ourselves and our citizens, and when our enemies are ready to live in peace they can come looking for us.
All coalitions are fragile, be they right wing led or left wing led. I don't think that really has anything to do with it.
| 654 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:04:02pm |
re: #653 abaleh
As an ex Israeli Lefty (I consider myself centrist now) I can say that the reason some of my friends and myself have shifted has been the disillusionment with the Palestinians ever really wanting peace. While buses were exploding I was sure that if we just gave them their land back they'd want to live in peace with us. But after the Gaza and Lebanon withdrawels ended up bringing more violence, I decided the heck with them. we should do whatever it takes to defend ourselves and our citizens, and when our enemies are ready to live in peace they can come looking for us.
All coalitions are fragile, be they right wing led or left wing led. I don't think that really has anything to do with it.
Exactly.
| 655 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:04:34pm |
| 656 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:06:01pm |
re: #653 abaleh
re: #654 Joo-LiZ
Can't argue because it wasn't my observation in the first place... I'll take your word for it tho'.
That is the tragedy of the situation tho', anybody who wants to make peace less likely (yes, on either side too) has it so damn easy to make things worse, while making things better is 1000x harder. Way of the world I guess.
| 657 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:06:31pm |
re: #638 Nimed
windsagio has already responded to that -- and he didn't have to. Why don't you believe him?
He just left a cryptic reply, he didn't explain why he agreed with that vile post. I'm calling him out on that. How can I "not believe" what he hasn't explained?
Here it is for reference:
re: #101 celticdragon
I automatically assume that the Israelis and the Islamists are both lying.This little quote from Andrew Exum at Abu Muqawama is telling.
...
Don't even get me started on the USS Liberty.
As far as I am concerned, Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah and the Israeli government can all rot in Hell. They deserve each other.
I have no use for anti Arab bigots any more than I have for anti Jewish bigots.
Here are some awesome Israeli sniper tee shirts that show crosshairs on a pregnant woman's stomach. The caption says "One shot, two kills".
Here is a vile Hamas cartoon that villifies Jews.
[Video]Fuck them all.
| 658 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:06:37pm |
re: #644 goddamnedfrank
I'm thinking specifically of an interview 3 days before his assassination, featured in a book by Yehuda Avner, the Prime Ministers.
He was remarkably on the money, stating his reasons for entering Oslo was because he feared the rise of radical Islamist forces (Hamas) and wanted to at least attempt peace with Arafat, even though he didn't trust them at all. But in the interview, the outline of how much Israel should give for peace has long since been passed.
| 659 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:06:44pm |
re: #648 windsagio
now I"m curious tho', what were the disagreements? :D
I think you were wrong in calling Cato a bigot (which is a very serious accusation that his opinion on mainstream Islam didn't warrant). I also think you and WUP were wrong about the discussion about the British foreign minister declarations, but that's pretty minor.
Of course, you get a lot more shit than other people who often do similar mistakes, which is pretty irritating.
| 660 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:07:15pm |
re: #657 Bagua
Bagua, if its really important to you, as a gesture of good faith. I'll go up and look, and give you an answer..
Do you remember what post it was? Because I certainly don't >>
| 662 |
prairiefire Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:08:32pm |
re: #611 Joo-LiZ
Yeah, Israel actually has a huge split in the right/left politics. For the first 20 years or so, they were all Labor/Socially inclined.
As is often noted, criticism of the Israeli government is most common and loudest in Israel itself. The academics in Israel -- my god, some of the things they say are just the worst.
The Knesset (Parliament) is also much free-er with the criticism than anything Congress could say before calls of traitor were heard.
US Support of Israel does tend to support the "right" Israelly view, which I happen to approve, but that was part of the impetus for the formation of JStreet.
Israel is a democracy, and supports a plethora of views (they have parties that mix and match along the Nationalist/Socialist spectra, Religious/Secular Spectra, Arab/Israeli spectras), and that is part of what Israelis mean when they say they are a "democracy". They truly are.
Yes. The most interesting part of this to me is how Israel will deal with the issue of Gaza internally.
| 663 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:09:01pm |
re: #634 Obdicut
...
Spend less time accusing people of being things, and more time making arguments. It's been very nice to see how well you've been spending your time and energy updating everyone on the BP crisis. You've done LGF a huge service by doing so.
Thank you for the bit about BP by the way. I appreciated that. But as to the first line, you do a great deal of that yourself so that is a mote beam comment.
| 664 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:10:50pm |
re: #660 windsagio
Bagua, if its really important to you, as a gesture of good faith. I'll go up and look, and give you an answer..
Do you remember what post it was? Because I certainly don't >>
Thank you.
Here it is #101
| 665 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:10:51pm |
re: #646 Bagua
What is this "tool" thing you keep pulling up? What was the context, how long ago?
The context was me stating that there are actions that Israel has taken that have not been the best ethical choices available. And noting that the Palestinian people themselves suffer greatly, and that the propaganda present there makes it very difficult for any Palestinian to hold anything other than anti-Israeli views.
You hold a grudge like an elephant and you cherry pick words out of long conversations to make flimsy points. Either drop it or explain it.
Elephants don't hold grudges. I do, however, not forgive insults of great enough magnitude. You have levied many of these, not just against me, either. Many of them you levied during your long period of AGW denial.
I'm clear what I'm objecting to here, it is in this thread, on this topic and recent topics. You have been desperately trying to discredit me for several months.
No, it is not clear what you're objecting to. I have not seen anything by Windsagio, WindUpBird, Darthstar, or any of the other 'newer' LGF members-- with the exception of the trolls-- that is a defense of Hamas at all, or any more than naiveté or an overabundance of hopeful thinking; that's human. It's allowable. It is not an easy subject to grasp, especially for those who are not hateful people and cannot grasp the amount of hate embodied in the propaganda in the region.
As I said, I'm very glad that you've been spending your energies on the updates on the situation with the oil leak; you've done excellent work there and everyone owes you a debt of gratitude. I'm unsure how you manage to hear me saying that and still claim I'm attempting to discredit you.
I am saying that you discredit yourself when you make personal attacks and agree with dark allusions that posters have revealed their true colors, or support Hamas, or anything else of that extreme a nature. Things are not so simple in this world.
| 666 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:11:15pm |
re: #659 Nimed
Listen, I'm a damn easy-going guy for 95% of the time. It takes a lot to rile me up like that. If I seem like I'm holding a bit grudge it's because Wind never did admit that he said anything wrong, to my recollection.
| 667 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:12:53pm |
re: #665 Obdicut
Hey now, I'm not naive at all!
I already know that the Tooth Fairy is really Mommy!
| 668 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:13:10pm |
re: #659 Nimed
I think you were wrong in calling Cato a bigot (which is a very serious accusation that his opinion on mainstream Islam didn't warrant). I also think you and WUP were wrong about the discussion about the British foreign minister declarations, but that's pretty minor.
Of course, you get a lot more shit than other people who often do similar mistakes, which is pretty irritating.
| 669 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:13:29pm |
re: #614 Stanley Sea
Really, thank you for this info. I try to grasp it by reading the news/opinions, but it really is better to hear it explained poster to poster. make sense?
To follow up on the whole point of crazy Israeli academics -- there is a Tel Aviv University professor named Shlomo Sand who wrote an entire book on how the Jews are not really a people, and all descended from Berbers and Khazars. A TEL AVIV UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR!
He's feeding material directly into the hands of the anti-Semitic/anti-Israeli bigots, for the sake of standing out and making a name for himself.
There was a genetic study done recently which shows that Jews from 3 major groups (Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and one other I can't remember) all have genetic roots in the Middle East, and are all genetically distinguishable from each other. (in other words, they all started out the same -- ancient hebrews -- and then as they spread throughout the world further differentiated into their own genetic subgroups)
| 670 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:14:20pm |
re: #664 Bagua
Having reviewed the evidence, I was agreeing with the concept that both sides were perfectly capable of lying their asses off if it met their needs.
| 671 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:16:27pm |
re: #669 Joo-LiZ
Just in passing, the other thing I heard was that there's a big problem 'over there' with hyper-conservative American Jews going over and making trouble (either in the settlements, or just in general, or on the (name I don't remember college age trip to Israel). In your opinion is there anything to that?
Gotta get these questions asked before the lines of communication are closed again!
| 672 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:17:27pm |
re: #669 Joo-LiZ
Seems a weird distinction, hasn't science thought for years that the 'semitic peoples' were closely related anyways?
| 673 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:17:44pm |
re: #669 Joo-LiZ
Hell, I probably have a rather thin stream of Jewish genetic left, since my maternal grandmother was a crypto-Jew and my maternal grandfather was a Sephardic Jew that had mostly assimilated (if you want terrible irony: his family moved to Warsaw in the early 1900s to join the flourishing Jewish community there). But I'm Jewish, and will always consider myself Jewish, and if Israel was ever invaded again by armies, I would fly there to pick up a rifle or do what I could to fight.
Because there is no one left from my mother's side of the family other than her, my second-cousin Ian, and I. They all died in the war, most of them in the camps. Hundreds of great-aunts, great-uncles, second cousins once removed. Large family photographs, all of whom were gone in the space of five years.
I am a Jew, and they will never kill us all. We will always survive.
| 674 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:18:14pm |
re: #671 windsagio
Just in passing, the other thing I heard was that there's a big problem 'over there' with hyper-conservative American Jews going over and making trouble (either in the settlements, or just in general, or on the (name I don't remember college age trip to Israel). In your opinion is there anything to that?
Gotta get these questions asked before the lines of communication are closed again!
Yup, I've heard that as well.
Most of the "crazy" settlers (they are not a homogeneous group) are Americans who move over there.
"Settlers" get smeared a lot because they are lumped in with wild "outpost" youth who set up caravans on hilltops and abuse the Palestinians. Aside from those crazies, who are disliked by mainstream Israelis, there are also major city settlements like Ariel in which they are mostly decent people.
| 675 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:19:20pm |
re: #674 Joo-LiZ
Well that sucks. Another example of people who just make the whole situation worse.
| 676 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:20:52pm |
re: #672 windsagio
Seems a weird distinction, hasn't science thought for years that the 'semitic peoples' were closely related anyways?
Here is an article talking about that study
We have learned that Jewish populations from around the world — with a few exceptions — have a remarkable degree of genetic connectedness with each other and with the Near East.
In one striking example, we have learned that self-identified priests, or kohanim, Ashkenazic and Sephardic alike, in large numbers share a particular Y chromosome type that is much less common among other Jews and rare among non-Jews. Since the Y chromosome is passed along unchanged from father to son, this indicates that many contemporary kohanim — who according to tradition are all descendants along the patrilineal line of Moses’ brother Aaron — do in fact have a common ancestor on the male line.
| 677 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:21:00pm |
re: #666 JasonA
Its tough to apologize, because I don't think I've said anything wrong.
The times I really did feel I was in error I apologized quickly and took my lumps (most recently it was something with Tradewind, I don't even remember what now).
| 678 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:22:02pm |
re: #676 Joo-LiZ
Ohh! You're talking much more micro-scale than I was thinking. There are families and then there are families I guess >>
| 679 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:23:11pm |
re: #675 windsagio
Well that sucks. Another example of people who just make the whole situation worse.
To be clear -- the "crazy" settlers are pretty politically powerful. But I strongly believe that if the Palestinians made their peaceful intentions clear, the vast majority of Israelis would be able to impose their will on the crazy ones. It's just not going to be easy, and without the credible possibility of peace, it is just way to difficult to even bother as a "gesture" without guarantees that it'll bring something positive in return,
| 680 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:24:07pm |
re: #679 Joo-LiZ
The list of times that Israeli concessions have brought good to Israel is a very small list, and most are from a long time ago.
| 681 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:24:29pm |
re: #665 Obdicut
The context was me stating that there are actions that Israel has taken that have not been the best ethical choices available. And noting that the Palestinian people themselves suffer greatly, and that the propaganda present there makes it very difficult for any Palestinian to hold anything other than anti-Israeli views.
Whatever it was that is just your summary, how many months ago was this exchange, why is it still so important? Perhaps I've changed my mind after reading you for six months as I don't even recall this exchange.
Elephants don't hold grudges. I do, however, not forgive insults of great enough magnitude. You have levied many of these, not just against me, either. Many of them you levied during your long period of AGW denial.
Elephants are known in popular culture as having long memories. You said a lot of nasty things to me during the AGW thread, I’ve forgotten and forgiven, now it is your turn.
No, it is not clear what you're objecting to. I have not seen anything by Windsagio, WindUpBird, Darthstar, or any of the other 'newer' LGF members-- with the exception of the trolls-- that is a defense of Hamas at all, or any more than naiveté or an overabundance of hopeful thinking; that's human. It's allowable. It is not an easy subject to grasp, especially for those who are not hateful people and cannot grasp the amount of hate embodied in the propaganda in the region.
Your opinion, I’m sharing mine. I don’t insist I’m always right and am happy to discuss if you think I’m wrong. I have made this observation and I believe it to be accurate. Also, I’ve not included WindUpBird so why are you? I’m also talking about Windsagio, not Darthstar.
As I said, I'm very glad that you've been spending your energies on the updates on the situation with the oil leak; you've done excellent work there and everyone owes you a debt of gratitude. I'm unsure how you manage to hear me saying that and still claim I'm attempting to discredit you.
Well, it’s kind of new for you to ever say anything to me that is not condemnatory. Thank you for saying that now.
I am saying that you discredit yourself when you make personal attacks and agree with dark allusions that posters have revealed their true colors, or support Hamas, or anything else of that extreme a nature. Things are not so simple in this world.
I appreciate your point. I am trying to make sense of this steady stream of “devils advocate” against any pro-Israel position. In the absence of a clear statements, Like Celticdragons’s I am left guessing, perhaps intentionally?
| 682 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:24:52pm |
re: #666 JasonA
Listen, I'm a damn easy-going guy for 95% of the time. It takes a lot to rile me up like that. If I seem like I'm holding a bit grudge it's because Wind never did admit that he said anything wrong, to my recollection.
You are, and that's all very well. I wish you would take into consideration all the idiotic talk going on about news lizards, people who "show their true colors" and so on. It's a much bigger turn off, and it's much more sniffling to the debate than anything windsagio has ever said.
| 683 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:26:22pm |
re: #679 Joo-LiZ
To be clear -- the "crazy" settlers are pretty politically powerful. But I strongly believe that if the Palestinians made their peaceful intentions clear, the vast majority of Israelis would be able to impose their will on the crazy ones. It's just not going to be easy, and without the credible possibility of peace, it is just way to difficult to even bother as a "gesture" without guarantees that it'll bring something positive in return,
Please forgive my ignorance. But I've read some biased stuff on the net about Avigdor Liberman. If you don't mind, could you give me the rational take?
| 684 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:26:39pm |
re: #665 Obdicut
Accusations are levelled; taxes are levied.
| 685 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:30:07pm |
re: #682 Nimed
You are, and that's all very well. I wish you would take into consideration all the idiotic talk going on about news lizards, people who "show their true colors" and so on. It's a much bigger turn off, and it's much more sniffling to the debate than anything windsagio has ever said.
And I want to note that this, right now has been the only fruitful conversation I've had on the subject of Israel.
Every other one has devolved into exactly what you said. I am not alone I think, we have been missing a lot of the newer members, and it's sad.
| 686 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:31:56pm |
re: #683 Stanley Sea
Please forgive my ignorance. But I've read some biased stuff on the net about Avigdor Liberman. If you don't mind, could you give me the rational take?
He's a Russian-Israeli, and very tactless. He's incredibly blunt. I don't think he's a "Fascist", he just takes the most direct path from point a to point b, without thinking about the overall effect on a liberal societies values, if that makes sense?
For example, something like insisting that Arabs say an Oath to Israel (like reciting the American Declaration of Independence, or for Canadian immigrants to swear an oath to the Queen (yes, they actually do that)) is something he has wanted to implement. That caused a huge uproar.
I dunno. I don't know his policy too well, but I think there is much more smear than not. The bottom line is that he blunt, undiplomatic, and doesn't sugar-coat his views of other leaders/countries.
| 687 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:32:00pm |
re: #681 Bagua
Whatever it was that is just your summary, how many months ago was this exchange, why is it still so important? Perhaps I've changed my mind after reading you for six months as I don't even recall this exchange.
That you can't even recall levying a charge of such odiousness is a terrible, terrible thing.
Elephants are known in popular culture as having long memories. You said a lot of nasty things to me during the AGW thread, I’ve forgotten and forgiven, now it is your turn.
The main difference is that you were engaging in AGW denial, Bagua. And I never called anyone a Kapo, or anything close to it.
I appreciate your point. I am trying to make sense of this steady stream of “devils advocate” against any pro-Israel position. In the absence of a clear statements, Like Celticdragons’s I am left guessing, perhaps intentionally?
I don't see anyone being devil's advocaty against any pro-Israel position, but I do see people rightly pointing out that, for example, even questioning the wisdom of the raid-- as opposed to the ethics or legality-- was treated as an attack on Israel by many people.
I'm at a loss as to what this sentence means, but obviously CelticDragon's allusion that the Liberty attack was intentional is ludicrously stupid. However, there is a ton of propaganda about the Liberty incident floating around, and it seems like she received a large dose of it. This doesn't excuse her, but to me it's just biolerplate conspiracy theory stuff, not much different from believing any other conspiracy story.
As I've said, there is no possible peace for Israel until Islam becomes deradicalized and/or the Islamic nations become less powerful, and that will only happen when either their governments stop being repressive corrupt shitbastards, or when we move away from an oil economy. That is the only actual solution to the problem, and I see very, very few people who are 'pro-Israel' acknowledging that, or acknowledging the hypocrisy of the United States, Israel's 'best friend', being allies with Saudi Arabia.
I would like the US to have a mutual defense treaty with Israel.
| 688 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:32:31pm |
re: #684 Cato the Elder
Accusations are levelled; taxes are levied.
Thank you, I always fuck that one up. Apologies.
| 689 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:32:40pm |
re: #677 windsagio
Its tough to apologize, because I don't think I've said anything wrong.
The times I really did feel I was in error I apologized quickly and took my lumps (most recently it was something with Tradewind, I don't even remember what now).
I believe there is the question of whether or not I'm a bigot. Seems to me that was recent enough for me to wonder legitimately if you're still of that opinion.
As to the post you updinged, the commenter said that she automatically assumes that Israel is lying, along with Hamas. Do you really think that's a fair comment?
| 691 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:33:17pm |
re: #670 windsagio
Having reviewed the evidence, I was agreeing with the concept that both sides were perfectly capable of lying their asses off if it met their needs.
So, after days of videos and posts by Charles showing how the media and the "activist" Jihadis have been lying through their teeth you conclude that, well, could be the Israelis lying after all. Humph.
And you pick that little gem out of an obviously anti-Israel rant to up ding. I don't buy that.
This is what I'm finding objectionable, every time evidence and facts are brought that show the dishonesty and violence of the jihadists, you make little digs like, well, both sides could be lying. It is exactly this false moral equivalence that is objectionable.
You were even defending William Hague and his government as knowledgeable and trustworthy experts as well as that hack from Channel 4. When I posted their words you heckle that I'm just some random guy on the internet suffering from bias. Do you really support Hague?
| 692 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:34:05pm |
re: #641 Stanley Sea
It's a freaking witch hunt. I will not stop classifying it as such.
It may well be a freaking witch hunt, but it's a blog full of political discussion, and a major feature in political discussions is finding out where other people stand. Dings are a clue. The topics may not be life-or-death for most of us, but they truly are for some people.
It has been incredibly nasty in the comments here in the past, and it probably will be again in the future. I'm tempted to say "this is nothing", but of course it is something, and I appreciate efforts to keep it from getting nastier. I hope the witch hunts don't drive you (or anyone else) off.
| 693 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:34:22pm |
re: #689 Cato the Elder
Referring to Mohammed as the 'piss-prophet' is at least kissing cousins with bigotry, Cato.
| 694 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:34:51pm |
re: #685 Stanley Sea
And I want to note that this, right now has been the only fruitful conversation I've had on the subject of Israel.
Every other one has devolved into exactly what you said. I am not alone I think, we have been missing a lot of the newer members, and it's sad.
I also enjoy discussing the issue with SanFranZ and Allouete, which often provide abundant references and stay on point even when pissed.
| 695 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:36:11pm |
re: #691 Bagua
So, after days of videos and posts by Charles showing how the media and the "activist" Jihadis have been lying through their teeth you conclude that, well, could be the Israelis lying after all. Humph.
And you pick that little gem out of an obviously anti-Israel rant to up ding. I don't buy that.
This is what I'm finding objectionable, every time evidence and facts are brought that show the dishonesty and violence of the jihadists, you make little digs like, well, both sides could be lying. It is exactly this false moral equivalence that is objectionable.
You were even defending William Hague and his government as knowledgeable and trustworthy experts as well as that hack from Channel 4. When I posted their words you heckle that I'm just some random guy on the internet suffering from bias. Do you really support Hague?
One has to give Hague some slack. He can't really say anything favorable to Israel, given his party coalition, the violent Jew-Hate of some of the UK's Muslims, and the hostile media environment.
| 696 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:36:31pm |
re: #685 Stanley Sea
And I want to note that this, right now has been the only fruitful conversation I've had on the subject of Israel.
Every other one has devolved into exactly what you said. I am not alone I think, we have been missing a lot of the newer members, and it's sad.
It may be simply a matter of some of the newer, more left-leaning LGF members having a bad case of naive anti-Israel bias, which sadly has been endemic to the left for several decades now, and knowing that they will be challenged on it here by facts that they cannot harmonize with their prejudices.
| 697 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:36:45pm |
re: #689 Cato the Elder
I responded to that up above, I didn't take it as 'automatic', but again rather that its quite reasonable that they might. People that investigate themselves tend to find themselves innocent.
The other thing, well I'm at a loss of what to say... So I'll put it this way. I find your response to Islam in general unreasonably harsh and negative, often in an emotional way. Freely throwing slurs at one of their most important religious figures, when such slurs don't really do any good, also doesn't look so good.
| 698 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:38:08pm |
re: #693 Obdicut
Referring to Mohammed as the 'piss-prophet' is at least kissing cousins with bigotry, Cato.
No, it isn't. I am under no obligation to respect another man's prophet when I can read for myself that he was a Jew-massacring megalomaniac.
| 699 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:38:20pm |
Out of smokes. bbiab. I hope that all will be standing when I return.
| 700 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:39:25pm |
re: #696 Cato the Elder
I think it was rather telling that a lot of people didn't actually know that Hamas's charter called for the destruction of Israel; I had thought that was totally common knowledge, and hadn't realized it was something that wasn't well-known.
I think it was also telling that when they learned this, most of them accepted that yes, that really did change things, that really mattered.
Except for Cordell, of course, who barely missed a step.
| 701 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:40:23pm |
re: #691 Bagua
The thing is, LGF is a biased source on Israel. Charles posting something doesn't make it automatically right. Also, all the information up to the point I know of has been released by the IDF... who have a vested interest in a particular interpretation.
I'm not saying that the people didn't attack the commandos, I'm not saying that they didn't hold some of them hostage. I understand also why they went in with lethal force afterwards. All that being said, Its perfectly clear to me that they'll lie or obfuscate to make their position better. Hell the US would (and has tried to), its what people do.
| 702 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:41:41pm |
re: #698 Cato the Elder
No, it isn't. I am under no obligation to respect another man's prophet when I can read for myself that he was a Jew-massacring megalomaniac.
Cato at least think about what you're saying. You throw things like this out, and you look biased, whether you are or not.
We all edit our ids to keep things relatively peacable (at least at first, after a while tempers fray). Stuff like the quote here just make you look bad.
| 703 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:42:10pm |
re: #695 Dark_Falcon
One has to give Hague some slack. He can't really say anything favorable to Israel, given his party coalition, the violent Jew-Hate of some of the UK's Muslims, and the hostile media environment.
How about his anti-gay positions? Give him some slack?
| 704 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:43:11pm |
re: #696 Cato the Elder
It may be simply a matter of some of the newer, more left-leaning LGF members having a bad case of naive anti-Israel bias, which sadly has been endemic to the left for several decades now, and knowing that they will be challenged on it here by facts that they cannot harmonize with their prejudices.
Maybe it's the presentation. JooLiZ has presented the facts calmly. I learn. The past week has been more ranting than anything else imo. Again, I want to learn, but I guess how it's presented to me affects that.
Another thing that has occurred, is I am fearful of being called a fucking Jew hater. Sorry to even have to TYPE that. Holy shit, how do you defend against that? This to me seems part of the atmosphere now, it has been thrown about like crazy.
Again, educate us mere mortals, don't degrade us.
| 705 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:43:41pm |
re: #703 Bagua
How about his anti-gay positions? Give him some slack?
No, but I wasn't aware he had any such.
| 706 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:43:50pm |
re: #700 Obdicut
At least when I was participating, the argument has never really been about whether Hamas was bad anyways. Of course they're bad.
The arguments have been about more 'meta' things, like whether the people in Gaza can be treated as a solid block, or whether the blockade is actually strengthening or weakening Hamas, etc.
| 707 |
Tats66 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:44:06pm |
re: #701 windsagio
I would think that all the info up to this point will either come from the IDF or the so called activists, and althought I'd like to ingest all info available from both sides, my benfit of the doubt goes to the IDF. Just me.
| 709 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:45:15pm |
re: #704 Stanley Sea
The other way to respond to it, if your mindset is such is to flare up :p
Just about everyone has gotten heated on here, and whether they're right or not, said some things that really didn't need to be said.
| 710 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:45:34pm |
re: #701 windsagio
The thing is, LGF is a biased source on Israel. Charles posting something doesn't make it automatically right. Also, all the information up to the point I know of has been released by the IDF... who have a vested interest in a particular interpretation.
Yep, those are the true colours I've been seeing. So you consider LGF, a blog that has for years been exposing anti-Israeli insanity is a biased source on Israel.
That is exactly what I am pointing out. At least now you are being open and honest about it.
| 711 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:45:53pm |
re: #707 Tats66
I think you're in the majority here. This is why independent third party investigations are a good thing tho :D
| 712 |
ILoveIsrael Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:46:15pm |
Here's a video of one of the "peace" activists saying that he wants to be martyred on the ship sailing to Gaza:
| 713 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:47:03pm |
re: #701 windsagio
The thing is, LGF is a biased source on Israel. Charles posting something doesn't make it automatically right. Also, all the information up to the point I know of has been released by the IDF... who have a vested interest in a particular interpretation.
I'm not saying that the people didn't attack the commandos, I'm not saying that they didn't hold some of them hostage. I understand also why they went in with lethal force afterwards. All that being said, Its perfectly clear to me that they'll lie or obfuscate to make their position better. Hell the US would (and has tried to), its what people do.
Why would they lie, given the dire consequences of being caught? They'd pay an exorbitant price if they were found to have lied.
| 714 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:47:04pm |
re: #710 Bagua
Dammit bagua!
Here we were making progress!
Disagreeing with a source is different than showing your 'true colors!' (well presuming I know what you're implying, and I'm pretty sure I do.)
This kind of rhetoric is exactly why we can't have good discussions on the subject!
| 715 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:47:36pm |
re: #702 windsagio
Cato at least think about what you're saying. You throw things like this out, and you look biased, whether you are or not.
We all edit our ids to keep things relatively peacable (at least at first, after a while tempers fray). Stuff like the quote here just make you look bad.
I am biased against Mohammed. I am not bigoted against Muslims. No more than being a disbeliever in the bitch-goddess Kali makes me anti-Hindu.
There are plenty of people who dismiss the notion of God as belief in "an invisible sky-buddy/dragon/monster/demon" or whatever. It bothers me not in the least.
And yet, having examined the life and teachings of Mohammed at some length over the last decade, I'm bound by political correctness to pretend to respect him and his prophethood when I don't? Would you have me lie about it for the sake of some nonexistent harmony?
| 716 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:47:36pm |
re: #705 Dark_Falcon
No, but I wasn't aware he had any such.
Apparently neither was windsagion when he was defending Hague as a trusted expert and denouncing me as having cognitive bias.
| 717 |
Tats66 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:47:53pm |
re: #711 windsagio
Definatly agree, but nowadays an objective third party, especially in the ME is more rare than a beer drinking unicorn dancing with an organ grinder monkey.
| 718 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:48:08pm |
re: #713 Dark_Falcon
Why would they lie, given the dire consequences of being caught? They'd pay an exorbitant price if they were found to have lied.
Then again, they get accused of lying by the propagandists anyway, and just look at how much damage has been done to Hamas and Hizballah by their lying (hint: none)
| 719 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:48:37pm |
re: #713 Dark_Falcon
They think they won't be caught, or people won't believe the other side, especially since their side got out first.
Again, this isn't against Israel per se, you see governments and organizations do it all the time. "We've performed an internal investigation and cleared XXX of any wrongdoing."
| 720 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:49:09pm |
re: #698 Cato the Elder
No, it isn't. I am under no obligation to respect another man's prophet when I can read for myself that he was a Jew-massacring megalomaniac.
re: #702 windsagio
Cato at least think about what you're saying. You throw things like this out, and you look biased, whether you are or not.
Huh? Calling a historical figure what he was shows a lack of thought?
Joseph Stalin was a megalomaniacal murderer of innocents. Should I feel bad about offending anyone out there who likes him?
| 721 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:49:38pm |
re: #698 Cato the Elder
That second sentence is true. That doesn't mean it's not very close to bigotry.
Jews have been massacred by Catholics many, many times, by Catholic leaders operating under 'divine right to rule', and by people who were fundamentally important to the Catholic church-- including John Chrysostom
The Catholic leaders, popes, and Saints who spoke out against the persecution of the Jews were the exceptions, not the rule. Augustine, for example, said that it was better to leave Jews alive to let them suffer for their murder of Christ.
Plus, there was the Inquisitions, which were distinctly Catholic.
If massacre and abuse of the Jews is your criteria for disliking a religion, then it seems rather odd to level (thank you, again) that charge against Islam and not also against Catholicism.
| 722 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:50:21pm |
re: #715 Cato the Elder
You can say you don't htink much of a guy without calling him a 'piss-prophet'.
Its like WUBs example, which I'm gonna steal. If he made his avatar that old photo of Jesus immersed in urine, people would be freaking outraged at the disrespect for Christianity.
Its exactly the same thing.
| 723 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:50:35pm |
re: #701 windsagio
I think it should tell you something that all the information available has been released by the IDF. And it's not that the IDF is trying to lie.
| 724 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:50:38pm |
| 726 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:52:03pm |
re: #723 Obdicut
I think it should tell you something that all the information available has been released by the IDF. And it's not that the IDF is trying to lie.
That took me a second to figure out what you meant.
The only footage released by the activists has been from the night of the incident, looking at the wounded. Everything else has been taken from them, from what I understand. They released some of the "captured" video, and some journalism association is throwing a fit.
| 727 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:53:17pm |
re: #725 windsagio
But really how do we know that? :p
No, you're missing the point.
There has been no release of information-- other than claims without proof-- by the 'activists'. They didn't release their security cam footage, or anything else. The IDF did.
Oh, and I think you're forgetting about the Al-Jazeera guy; it is incorrect to say that only the IDF has released stuff-- the Al-Jazeera guy's version of events, remember, squares with the IDF, not the 'activists'.
| 728 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:53:27pm |
The Royal Navy’s blockade of Napoleon, most famously led by Lord Nelson, protected England from invasion and laid the groundwork for the liberation of Europe. Lincoln’s blockade of the South helped win the Civil War, preserve the Union, and end slavery. John Kennedy’s blockade of Cuba forced Khrushchev to withdraw nuclear weapons from that island and contributed to the eventual successful outcome of the Cold War.The history of blockades by free nations is an honorable one. Israel’s blockade of Hamas-run Gaza—a blockade that, unlike some of the above, permits the delivery of humanitarian and civilian aid—stands in that tradition. It preserves a tenuous peace in the short run. And it may result in the liberation of Palestinians from Hamas’s dictatorship, and prevent their exploitation by a terror-supporting Iranian regime, in the longer run.
Israel withdrew from Gaza almost five years ago. Three years ago, Hamas took over in a military coup. Since then, Israel and Egypt have blockaded Gaza to prevent weapons from reaching Hamas, which has launched missiles into Israel and which is committed to the killing of Israelis and the destruction of the state of Israel. Last week, Hamas sympathizers sought to break the blockade. Israel acted to stop them. It has nothing to apologize for. The blockade prevents Hamas, and its backer, Iran, from triggering a larger war from Gaza. It isolates Hamas and allows for continued progress on the West Bank. Israelis live in (relative) safety. The people of Gaza continue to have access to the necessities of life.
The Palestinian Authority owes Israel thanks for keeping Hamas at bay. The Palestinian people owe Israel thanks for weakening Hamas. The Arab states owe Israel thanks for controlling Hamas and curbing Iranian influence. The Europeans owe Israel thanks for denying Iran a port on the Mediterranean.
| 729 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:53:39pm |
re: #726 Joo-LiZ
The thing is video can be edited and cut. Both the IDF video and the Al Jazeera (thats who I think it was) video.
To make a really hyperbolic comparison, its like Nixon saying that there was nothing on the unedited Watergate tapes to merit any further investigation.
| 730 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:53:54pm |
re: #721 Obdicut
That second sentence is true. That doesn't mean it's not very close to bigotry.
Jews have been massacred by Catholics many, many times, by Catholic leaders operating under 'divine right to rule', and by people who were fundamentally important to the Catholic church-- including John Chrysostom
The Catholic leaders, popes, and Saints who spoke out against the persecution of the Jews were the exceptions, not the rule. Augustine, for example, said that it was better to leave Jews alive to let them suffer for their murder of Christ.
Plus, there was the Inquisitions, which were distinctly Catholic.
If massacre and abuse of the Jews is your criteria for disliking a religion, then it seems rather odd to level (thank you, again) that charge against Islam and not also against Catholicism.
Good point, but it should be noted that such incidents are in the past in Catholicism's case, whereas they are ongoing in the case of Islam.
| 731 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:55:06pm |
re: #730 Dark_Falcon
Good point, but it should be noted that such incidents are in the past in Catholicism's case, whereas they are ongoing in the case of Islam.
But the original Mohamed reference is ancient!
| 732 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:55:11pm |
re: #726 Joo-LiZ
Yeah, sorry, I'm being a little inaccurate. Time to do dishes soon. I meant that the activists didn't release the videos about the event, just after the event-- which was clearly an attempt to lie.
And even though the videos show the IDF guys being beaten and overcome (which is not a narrative the IDF really wants to portray) they released those videos. They didn't have to.
| 733 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:55:43pm |
re: #727 Obdicut
Wasn't that Al J footage released by the IDF after being seized?
Anyways, the first statement I heard of coming out of any of the activists (from that Knesset member) directly disagreed with the IDF version... at least if I remember right.
I should back up a bit tho'. I'm not saying that they DID lie, I"m saying that it's not unreasonable to presume they might.... or at least tilt the footage a little their way.
Also you're right, I didn't get what you were saying quite :P
| 734 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:55:58pm |
re: #721 Obdicut
That second sentence is true. That doesn't mean it's not very close to bigotry.
Jews have been massacred by Catholics many, many times, by Catholic leaders operating under 'divine right to rule', and by people who were fundamentally important to the Catholic church-- including John Chrysostom
The Catholic leaders, popes, and Saints who spoke out against the persecution of the Jews were the exceptions, not the rule. Augustine, for example, said that it was better to leave Jews alive to let them suffer for their murder of Christ.
Plus, there was the Inquisitions, which were distinctly Catholic.
If massacre and abuse of the Jews is your criteria for disliking a religion, then it seems rather odd to level (thank you, again) that charge against Islam and not also against Catholicism.
When Islam has the equivalent of Vatican II and rejects its old teachings on the Jews, replacing or interpreting out of existence the hateful speech in the Koran about "pigs and monkeys" with the doctrine that the Jews are their elder brothers, as the Catholic Church now teaches, I will respect your tu quoque argument.
None of us can undo the past, but amends can be made and teachings changed. The Islamic/Koranic teachings about the Jews are one of the main reasons for Israel's threatened position in the world.
| 735 |
abaleh Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:56:08pm |
re: #723 Obdicut
I think it should tell you something that all the information available has been released by the IDF. And it's not that the IDF is trying to lie.
re: #726 Joo-LiZ
That took me a second to figure out what you meant.
The only footage released by the activists has been from the night of the incident, looking at the wounded. Everything else has been taken from them, from what I understand. They released some of the "captured" video, and some journalism association is throwing a fit.
As Joo-LiZ said, the only video for the first day or so was released by the activists (terrorists), and it was totally one sided. For a whole day, the only images available were of bloodied stretchers and walkways on the ship, and the whole world was sure it was a massacre. Then the Israeli footage was released showing a more complete picture of the events.
What do you think should happen? some neutral 3rd party should be on hand for all Israeli military operations to give the unbiased version?
| 736 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:56:24pm |
| 737 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:56:52pm |
re: #733 windsagio
Wasn't that Al J footage released by the IDF after being seized?
Anyways, the first statement I heard of coming out of any of the activists (from that Knesset member) directly disagreed with the IDF version... at least if I remember right.
I should back up a bit tho'. I'm not saying that they DID lie, I"m saying that it's not unreasonable to presume they might... or at least tilt the footage a little their way.
Also you're right, I didn't get what you were saying quite :P
No, there was a live broadcast as it happened.
| 738 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:57:18pm |
re: #734 Cato the Elder
When Islam has the equivalent of Vatican II and rejects its old teachings on the Jews, replacing or interpreting out of existence the hateful speech in the Koran about "pigs and monkeys" with the doctrine that the Jews are their elder brothers, as the Catholic Church now teaches, I will respect your tu quoque argument.
None of us can undo the past, but amends can be made and teachings changed. The Islamic/Koranic teachings about the Jews are one of the main reasons for Israel's threatened position in the world.
Must Concur.
| 739 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:57:18pm |
re: #732 Obdicut
I'm a little behind on watching videos I guess :P
I would say that the activists wanting to dissemble doesn't mean that the IDF doesn't also have motivation too >
| 740 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:57:40pm |
re: #737 Joo-LiZ
Hate missing things like that, it messes up my whole damn argument :P
| 741 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:57:52pm |
re: #730 Dark_Falcon
Good point, but it should be noted that such incidents are in the past in Catholicism's case, whereas they are ongoing in the case of Islam.
Sure. But Cato was talking about Mohammed's massacre of Jews, which is definitely in the past. I have no problem saying that mainstream Islam in the Middle East is massively anti-semitic and justifies almost any violence against Jews.
But the phrase 'piss-prophet' is not one that seems necessary to use, especially since the only Muslim I know who reads this blog is a Western, very moderate, very liberal Muslim, CuriousLurker.
| 742 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:58:56pm |
re: #741 Obdicut
Also, strangely, such language might have a radicalizing effect. (or to put it another way, might piss moderate Muslims off)
| 743 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Jun 5, 2010 5:59:53pm |
re: #730 Dark_Falcon
Good point, but it should be noted that such incidents are in the past in Catholicism's case, whereas they are ongoing in the case of Islam.
Right, the Catholic Church has moved on from all that, to become the preeminent global force in the enablement of child rape and the active concealment of child sex crimes.
Yay!
| 744 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:00:30pm |
re: #742 windsagio
Also, strangely, such language might have a radicalizing effect. (or to put it another way, might piss moderate Muslims off)
So far, all the vile things said about Catholicism on this blog have not succeeded in radicalizing me. If I can take it, so can Muslims.
| 745 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:00:35pm |
re: #743 goddamnedfrank
Right, the Catholic Church has moved on from all that, to become the preeminent global force in the enablement of child rape and the active concealment of child sex crimes.
Yay!
did you see my 658?
| 746 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:00:51pm |
re: #734 Cato the Elder
That wasn't your argument, though, Cato. You're changing it, now. To you, Mohammed is a false prophet and that is part of your animus against him-- you have stated so clearly. That draws the conflict in religious terms, and there is no reason to expect anyone with secular values to respect that, or not consider it bigoted.
| 747 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:01:03pm |
re: #743 goddamnedfrank
Right, the Catholic Church has moved on from all that, to become the preeminent global force in the enablement of child rape and the active concealment of child sex crimes.
Yay!
See what I mean, Windsagio?
| 748 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:01:20pm |
re: #744 Cato the Elder
So far, all the vile things said about Catholicism on this blog have not succeeded in radicalizing me. If I can take it, so can Muslims.
You give yourself to little credit! You have skin as thick as a wall. Words don't bounce off everyone as they do you =P
| 749 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:01:58pm |
re: #744 Cato the Elder
Vile things about the Catholic church?
Like what? (or are you referring to the various references to the Child Abuse Scandal?)
| 750 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:02:03pm |
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
I posted this:
An example of the sort of treatment Israel gets from the UK media. Here is Jon Snow of Channel 4.
[Link: www.youtube.com...]
This sort of relentless demonisation by the vile media directly encourages freak shows like The Rachel Corrie.
And Windy says this:
re: #171 BaguaComplaining about demonizing something while demonizing something!
Brilliantly postmodern!
I posted this:
Unfortunately the replacements are cut from the same cloth.
The Foreign Secretary William Hague has called on the Government of Israel to open all crossings for aid to enter Gaza and deplored the loss of life during the interception of the Gaza Flotilla.Another cheek of the same ass.
Windy said this:
re: #241 Bagua
And random people on the internet are clearly more informed and knowledgable than the British government.
re: #249 Bagua
To be frank, its a tricky line. Specifically the line is between with disagreeing with experts and angrily denouncing/insulting/shouting at (virtually) experts because their expert opinion disagrees.
to which I said:
I suppose it is tricky, I suppose we should respect and not question the expertise of the British government and their Foreign Secretary William Hague.
You do realise that the man you are defending, "Hague, has defended the votes of Tory MEPs against gay rights" and has a deputy, Mark Francois who "voted against four key measures – repealing Section 28, pro-gay measures in Harriet Harman's equality bill, anti-gay hate crime measures and gay adoption – the Labour government has brought in as part of its efforts to make Britain more tolerant."I suppose it is tricky, I suppose we should respect and not question the expertise of the British government and their Foreign Secretary William Hague.
You do realise that the man you are defending, "Hague, has defended the votes of Tory MEPs against gay rights" and has a deputy, Mark Francois who "voted against four key measures – repealing Section 28, pro-gay measures in Harriet Harman's equality bill, anti-gay hate crime measures and gay adoption – the Labour government has brought in as part of its efforts to make Britain more tolerant."
And Windy ran off without replying.
| 751 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:02:11pm |
re: #746 Obdicut
That wasn't your argument, though, Cato. You're changing it, now. To you, Mohammed is a false prophet and that is part of your animus against him-- you have stated so clearly. That draws the conflict in religious terms, and there is no reason to expect anyone with secular values to respect that, or not consider it bigoted.
In secular terms, he's saying Mohammed isn't a good role-model, and he can't respect people who want to emulate him.
| 752 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:02:16pm |
re: #741 Obdicut
Sure. But Cato was talking about Mohammed's massacre of Jews, which is definitely in the past. I have no problem saying that mainstream Islam in the Middle East is massively anti-semitic and justifies almost any violence against Jews.
But the phrase 'piss-prophet' is not one that seems necessary to use, especially since the only Muslim I know who reads this blog is a Western, very moderate, very liberal Muslim, CuriousLurker.
It's not a phrase I would have chosen, but I've learned that its impossible to get Cato to withdrawn such a term once things have gotten going. He doesn't back down.
| 753 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:02:25pm |
re: #746 Obdicut
That wasn't your argument, though, Cato. You're changing it, now. To you, Mohammed is a false prophet and that is part of your animus against him-- you have stated so clearly. That draws the conflict in religious terms, and there is no reason to expect anyone with secular values to respect that, or not consider it bigoted.
So, tell me, what is the secular take on prophets? They are all false?
What skin is it off your back if I consider one prophet to be falser than some others I could name?
| 754 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:02:27pm |
re: #748 Joo-LiZ
*cough* I modestly suggest that you just don't know the right words.
| 755 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:03:15pm |
re: #752 Dark_Falcon
It's not a phrase I would have chosen, but I've learned that its impossible to get Cato to withdrawn such a term once things have gotten going. He doesn't back down.
I don't want him to back down. I don't want him to behave in any particular way. But he shouldn't be surprised if people perceive it as bigotry.
| 756 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:03:35pm |
re: #747 Cato the Elder
I see you are!
Thats a tough nut to crack as a Catholic, I'd imagine. Outrage against the corrupt doings in your own church might well balance out any outrage based on the insults based on those doings.
| 757 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:03:58pm |
re: #754 windsagio
*cough* I modestly suggest that you just don't know the right words.
Heh. Maybe. I'm not a fan of verbal duelling online. Direct insults are counterproductive, and I don't think it's very fun trying to push people's buttons.
| 758 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:04:35pm |
re: #752 Dark_Falcon
It's not a phrase I would have chosen, but I've learned that its impossible to get Cato to withdrawn such a term once things have gotten going. He doesn't back down.
Lets be frank tho'.
That's not discussion, that's one person dictating terms.
To back down when you're mistaken is only rational thinking.
| 759 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:04:56pm |
re: #753 Cato the Elder
It's no skin off my back whatsoever. But, as I've said, don't be astonished when people consider it bigotry. You think that your prophets are true and the other prophets aren't; not exactly shocking news. But when you refer to the other prophets in derogatory terms that would offend and alienate even a moderate follower of that religion, that is very hard to see in any other terms but bigotry.
| 760 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:05:03pm |
re: #757 Joo-LiZ
Sometimes you learn the buttons by mistake tho'.
Its also possible that I'm just VERY VERY IRRITATING to argue with >>
| 761 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:05:44pm |
re: #760 windsagio
You are basically an enormous pillow.
I feel somewhat bad anytime I whack you, but it makes a pleasing sound.
| 762 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:05:57pm |
re: #760 windsagio
Sometimes you learn the buttons by mistake tho'.
Its also possible that I'm just VERY VERY IRRITATING to argue with >>
It's also a matter of the internet as a medium. We have now way to tell with what expression or with what tone something is being said. These things can totally change a meaning.
| 764 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:06:40pm |
re: #761 Obdicut
... If I don't accidentally report it instead >>
| 765 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:07:04pm |
Holy shit! I thought this thread was dead when I left.
| 766 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:07:31pm |
| 767 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:07:33pm |
| 768 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:07:45pm |
| 769 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:08:15pm |
I'm just happy that this conversation is reasoned.
| 770 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:08:50pm |
re: #759 Obdicut
It's no skin off my back whatsoever. But, as I've said, don't be astonished when people consider it bigotry. You think that your prophets are true and the other prophets aren't; not exactly shocking news. But when you refer to the other prophets in derogatory terms that would offend and alienate even a moderate follower of that religion, that is very hard to see in any other terms but bigotry.
Fine. I'm a bigot.
Any other issues we need to resolve?
| 771 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:08:52pm |
re: #769 Stanley Sea
I'm just happy that this conversation is reasoned.
I think we all are, deep inside :D
Anyways, its time for some gaming I think, tty'all later!
| 772 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:09:27pm |
Once upon a time, I was debating with a Palestinian about Operation Cast Lead and casualty figures.
When I finally reasoned her down to sanity levels, and she had nothing else to say, she declared "but you are biased because you support Israel!" and walked away.
I don't know why that just popped back into my mind.
| 773 |
Targetpractice Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:10:13pm |
re: #765 Nimed
Holy shit! I thought this thread was dead when I left.
So did I. It's become a zombie thread. Quick, aim for the head!
| 774 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:10:34pm |
re: #771 windsagio
I think we all are, deep inside :D
Anyways, its time for some gaming I think, tty'all later!
Ah, question first! Do you just walk out your front door to get food or do you have to drive?
| 775 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:10:42pm |
re: #770 Cato the Elder
I didn't call you a bigot. But it's not outrageous to call someone who refers to the founder of a religion by a derogatory name bigoted towards that religion.
I don't find such labels all that useful, especially for a religious conflict. I wouldn't call you a bigot.
| 776 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:10:42pm |
re: #773 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
So did I. It's become a zombie thread. Quick, aim for the head!
I just laughed out loud.
| 777 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:11:53pm |
re: #774 Stanley Sea
Where I am now I have to drive if the weather is bad.
Its about a mile to the nearest grocery store, and no busses.
In good weather I walk anyways tho'. Saves gas and all that.
The plus side is My house backs on a huge nature park/reserve with trails, so I get alot of good exercise :D
| 778 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:11:58pm |
re: #687 Obdicut
That you can't even recall levying a charge of such odiousness is a terrible, terrible thing.
Again, your continual judgements and accusations against me, yet I am unqualified to have opinions? You quote out of context and pursue me with these false accusations. You are the judgemental one.
The main difference is that you were engaging in AGW denial, Bagua. And I never called anyone a Kapo, or anything close to it.
Nor did I even say that to you. But again, you pursue me for something taken out of context six months ago. More lies and false accusations in an ugly thread which you antagonized Ludwig into calling me far worse things. But you overlook that dishonestly. Drop the hostility and cherry picking lies or don’t talk to me.
I don't see anyone being devil's advocaty against any pro-Israel position, but I do see people rightly pointing out that, for example, even questioning the wisdom of the raid-- as opposed to the ethics or legality-- was treated as an attack on Israel by many people.
Of course, you deny every point you disagree with, it’s what you do. I am observing what I see, you post your own opinions.
I'm at a loss as to what this sentence means, but obviously CelticDragon's allusion that the Liberty attack was intentional is ludicrously stupid. However, there is a ton of propaganda about the Liberty incident floating around, and it seems like she received a large dose of it. This doesn't excuse her, but to me it's just biolerplate conspiracy theory stuff, not much different from believing any other conspiracy story.
Nothing to see here, walk along. Perfectly innocent to mention the USS Liberty and make equivalency between Hexbollan/Hamas and the Israeli Government.
| 779 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:12:06pm |
re: #758 windsagio
Lets be frank tho'.
That's not discussion, that's one person dictating terms.
To back down when you're mistaken is only rational thinking.
It is what it is.
| 780 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:12:09pm |
Wait for it...
Wait for it...
Night of the Living Thread!
I'll take no offense to any downdings to this horrible pun.
Now's your chance.
| 781 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:12:43pm |
re: #770 Cato the Elder
Fine. I'm a bigot.
Any other issues we need to resolve?
The problem is it's possible to be informed and dislike a religion (ideologically), it is far more common to be uninformed and just bigoted.
You fall into the former category, but if people don't know you, they assume the latter.
| 782 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:12:50pm |
re: #779 Dark_Falcon
And it is harmful to the discussion.
(Blame SS for calling me back before I could get away!)
| 783 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:13:08pm |
re: #759 Obdicut
It's no skin off my back whatsoever. But, as I've said, don't be astonished when people consider it bigotry. You think that your prophets are true and the other prophets aren't; not exactly shocking news. But when you refer to the other prophets in derogatory terms that would offend and alienate even a moderate follower of that religion, that is very hard to see in any other terms but bigotry.
I'm with Cato on this. It's preferable to to err on the honesty side, and, as he pointed out, there's plenty of derision of Christianity to go around.
| 784 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:14:04pm |
re: #778 Bagua
I haven't made any false accusation against you.
Nothing to see here, walk along. Perfectly innocent to mention the USS Liberty and make equivalency between Hexbollan/Hamas and the Israeli Government.
Huh? I called it a conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theories aren't innocent. They're damaging and need to be fought with the truth.
| 785 |
windsagio Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:14:19pm |
re: #783 Nimed
actually yeah, its time to go.
Its really hard not to argue about this point, but I can't do that without seeming an ass, and so... its better to just take a break instead of taking the thread down in flames :P
| 786 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:14:29pm |
re: #775 Obdicut
I didn't call you a bigot. But it's not outrageous to call someone who refers to the founder of a religion by a derogatory name bigoted towards that religion.
I don't find such labels all that useful, especially for a religious conflict. I wouldn't call you a bigot.
Bull, you just said:
It's no skin off my back whatsoever. But, as I've said, don't be astonished when people consider it bigotry. You think that your prophets are true and the other prophets aren't; not exactly shocking news. But when you refer to the other prophets in derogatory terms that would offend and alienate even a moderate follower of that religion, that is very hard to see in any other terms but bigotry.
You are calling Cato a bigot. Don't pretend otherwise.
| 787 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:14:47pm |
re: #770 Cato the Elder
Fine. I'm a bigot.
Any other issues we need to resolve?
No you're not! You're an equal opportunity offender.
| 788 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:14:50pm |
re: #785 windsagio
actually yeah, its time to go.
Its really hard not to argue about this point, but I can't do that without seeming an ass, and so... its better to just take a break instead of taking the thread down in flames :P
fucking a, please don't. See ya!
| 789 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:14:58pm |
re: #783 Nimed
I'm with Cato on this. It's preferable to to err on the honesty side, and, as he pointed out, there's plenty of derision of Christianity to go around.
With him on what? You're going to start called Mohammed 'piss-prophet' too?
| 790 |
Targetpractice Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:15:00pm |
re: #780 JasonA
Wait for it...
Wait for it...
Night of the Living Thread!
I'll take no offense to any downdings to this horrible pun.
Now's your chance.
It's part of a Double Feature, with the second film being...
They Saved Arafat's Brain!
Get your tickets now, they're goin' fast!
| 791 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:15:14pm |
re: #775 Obdicut
I didn't call you a bigot. But it's not outrageous to call someone who refers to the founder of a religion by a derogatory name bigoted towards that religion.
I don't find such labels all that useful, especially for a religious conflict. I wouldn't call you a bigot.
The facts about Mohammed's life and actions are pretty well known and not in dispute between those who think he was a great prophet and those who think otherwise.
Let each person draw the conclusions that seem appropriate.
| 792 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:15:39pm |
re: #786 Bagua
You are calling Cato a bigot. Don't pretend otherwise.
See my 781... Obdicut is saying that in a much more roundabout way, I think.
| 793 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:16:34pm |
re: #780 JasonA
Wait for it...
Wait for it...
Night of the Living Thread!
I'll take no offense to any downdings to this horrible pun.
Now's your chance.
You just can't help yourself with your avatars! Now you insult the memory of Aerys Targaryen.
| 794 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:17:11pm |
re: #793 Nimed
You just can't help yourself with your avatars! Now you insult the memory of Aerys Targaryen.
I love that there are GRRM readers here!
I've said it before, I say it again!!!!
| 795 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:17:30pm |
re: #784 Obdicut
I haven't made any false accusation against you.
Huh? I called it a conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theories aren't innocent. They're damaging and need to be fought with the truth.
Either stop with these accusations from half a year ago or talk them out. You state these things like facts and bring them up repeatedly. I'd prefer to have a normal discussion with you without the adversarial stuff but it is your choice.
| 796 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:17:31pm |
re: #786 Bagua
You are calling Cato a bigot. Don't pretend otherwise.
That it is hard to see in terms other than bigotry doesn't mean that I don't see it in terms other than bigotry. Things that are hard are not impossible.
This is the kind of black-and-white thinking on your part that is problematic. I am clearly stating that I don't think Cato is a bigot. I am saying that if you use a derogatory nickname for the shibboleth of a group, that is most easily interpreted as bigotry. I don't find that useful interpretation or agree with it; I don't think it is bigotry.
I don't consider Cato a bigot. I do think that a lot of people consider doing what he does bigoted. I don't think they're right, but it's not like people are randomly calling him a bigot for no reason.
| 797 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:18:10pm |
re: #796 Obdicut
That it is hard to see in terms other than bigotry doesn't mean that I don't see it in terms other than bigotry. Things that are hard are not impossible.
This is the kind of black-and-white thinking on your part that is problematic. I am clearly stating that I don't think Cato is a bigot. I am saying that if you use a derogatory nickname for the shibboleth of a group, that is most easily interpreted as bigotry. I don't find that useful interpretation or agree with it; I don't think it is bigotry.
I don't consider Cato a bigot. I do think that a lot of people consider doing what he does bigoted. I don't think they're right, but it's not like people are randomly calling him a bigot for no reason.
See my 781
| 798 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:18:30pm |
re: #793 Nimed
You just can't help yourself with your avatars! Now you insult the memory of Aerys Targaryen.
That's Rhaegar. :P
| 799 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:18:53pm |
And I'm out for a bit. Don't say anything bigoted without me!
| 800 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:19:43pm |
I'm also out for a while... Talk to y'all later!
| 801 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:19:56pm |
re: #792 Joo-LiZ
See my 781... Obdicut is saying that in a much more roundabout way, I think.
It's the beating about the bush that I find frustrating. Let's at least be honest about our views, and our opinions of others views without the weasel words.
I don't want to be misunderstood and I don't want to misunderstand others.
| 802 |
Targetpractice Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:19:57pm |
re: #799 JasonA
And I'm out for a bit. Don't say anything bigoted without me!
...damnit, why couldn't you wait until I'd finish the long diatribe I was just about to post. Now you've taken all my fun away!
/
| 803 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:20:14pm |
re: #799 JasonA
And I'm out for a bit. Don't say anything bigoted without me!
Honestly, with all respect to WUB, furries still creep me out. When they're in costume. I fully respect their right to do whatever wherever.
It's probably because I have a phobia about cloth on teeth.
That probably makes me bigoted.
| 804 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:21:41pm |
re: #789 Obdicut
With him on what? You're going to start called Mohammed 'piss-prophet' too?
Just my opinion. If people want to say that Abraham is a piss-prophet or make jokes about the virginity of Mary, it may offend a lot of people, but it's not necessarily a sign of bigotry.
| 805 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:21:44pm |
re: #795 Bagua
There isn't really anything to talk out, Bagua. I don't find it good behavior, or true, or accurate, to do things like claim I'm calling Cato a bigot when I'm not doing that, or accuse people of supporting Hamas when they don't. I'm always going to be 'adversarial' to you when you make statements like that, especially when they fit a pattern of behavior on your part.
You have a tendency to state things in rather stark black and white, to interpret nuance as 'weasel words'. I'm not going to stop arguing with you on that.
| 806 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:22:20pm |
re: #804 Nimed
I agree that it's not necessarily a sign of bigotry, given that I don't think Cato is a bigot, as I've said several times now.
But are you going to start referring to Mohammed as 'piss-prophet'?
| 807 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:23:10pm |
re: #803 Obdicut
Honestly, with all respect to WUB, furries still creep me out. When they're in costume. I fully respect their right to do whatever wherever.
It's probably because I have a phobia about cloth on teeth.
That probably makes me bigoted.
And note that you mentioned WindupBird and didn't acknowledge that I was clearly not talking about him. I don't find him creepy at all. I also don't find Windsagio creepy, I object solely to his views and posting tactics.
| 808 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:23:50pm |
re: #807 Bagua
That post had absolutely nothing to do with you, Bagua.
| 809 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:24:19pm |
| 810 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:25:54pm |
re: #805 Obdicut
There isn't really anything to talk out, Bagua. I don't find it good behavior, or true, or accurate, to do things like claim I'm calling Cato a bigot when I'm not doing that, or accuse people of supporting Hamas when they don't. I'm always going to be 'adversarial' to you when you make statements like that, especially when they fit a pattern of behavior on your part.
You have a tendency to state things in rather stark black and white, to interpret nuance as 'weasel words'. I'm not going to stop arguing with you on that.
Then my claim stands that you are making false allegations. I suggest either dropping old grudges or work them out.
We could have good debates if we could bet past the personal animosity. I've long since accepted you, yet you continue to domonise me. It is your choice.
| 811 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:26:27pm |
I have not repeated the phrase I used to describe Mohammed. In future I will confine my criticism of him and his doctrines to academic-sounding language.
Hope that helps.
| 812 |
Joo-LiZ Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:27:33pm |
re: #811 Cato the Elder
I have not repeated the phrase I used to describe Mohammed. In future I will confine my criticism of him and his doctrines to academic-sounding language.
Hope that helps.
I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but it absolutely would, even if you don't think so.
It gets your message through to a wider audience of those who read your comments.
| 813 |
Dahak Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:29:47pm |
Am I being just a bit too cynical here, or is it odd that a humanitarian aid ship has its funders' website address plastered across its upper deck?
| 814 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:31:17pm |
re: #806 Obdicut
I agree that it's not necessarily a sign of bigotry, given that I don't think Cato is a bigot, as I've said several times now.
But are you going to start referring to Mohammed as 'piss-prophet'?
Probably not, because I consider it unnecessarily offensive. But what people will find offensive is a pretty subjective call.
Since we agree that this is not necessarily a sign of bigotry, I don't know what we're discussing anymore.
| 815 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:32:01pm |
re: #810 Bagua
You have not 'accepted me'. You have posted several times in the past couple weeks this:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
Of course Obdicut, it is a given that you will always deny, distract, claim cluelessness and condemn. I care not what you say. I ignore you unless you address me as there is no benefit in engaging someone as stubborn as you.
That's not 'acceptance'.
| 816 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:32:10pm |
re: #812 Joo-LiZ
No sarcasm, for once.
Everyone says things in the heat of the moment. If I kept score against the people who denigrate theism in all its forms, or those who think the Catholic Church is evil incarnate, there would be no end to it.
None of that bothers me. It would be my hope that other people here (many of whom are quite unmoved by ridicule directed at any other religion) could learn to live with the occasional jab at Islam.
| 817 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:32:37pm |
re: #744 Cato the Elder
So far, all the vile things said about Catholicism on this blog have not succeeded in radicalizing me. If I can take it, so can Muslims.
The Church and the faith get confused, and I'm guilty of that above. The problem I see with comparison is that there is no global authority for Islam, so it's harder to pin all the shit done in its name on one, relevant individual. Therefore criticizing the documented harm caused by failures of leadership of the Catholic Church doesn't really have a modern, relevant allegory in drawing pictures of Mohammed. Instead you have two divided camps with their own polarized sub-factions all vying for a slice of the Islamic mindshare. In a sense, Shia is to Islam as Catholicism is to Christianity, both represent a subset of the whole, and both come with Saints.
| 818 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:32:37pm |
re: #808 Obdicut
That post had absolutely nothing to do with you, Bagua.
You said:
No, it is not clear what you're objecting to. I have not seen anything by Windsagio, WindUpBird, Darthstar, or any of the other 'newer' LGF members-- with the exception of the trolls-- that is a defense of Hamas at all,
I made it clear I'm not referencing WindUpBird in this thread which you didn't acknowledge. Now you are adding that after all he "creeps you out" and I want to separate myself from that observation.
| 820 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:34:34pm |
re: #810 Bagua
Then my claim stands that you are making false allegations. I suggest either dropping old grudges or work them out.
We could have good debates if we could bet past the personal animosity. I've long since accepted you, yet you continue to domonise me. It is your choice.
Is that a cross of demonize and sodomize?
/
Yes, I'm a child.
| 821 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:34:50pm |
re: #815 Obdicut
You have not 'accepted me'. You have posted several times in the past couple weeks this:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
That's not 'acceptance'.
That was only after you made a hostile comment to me out of the blue, and then resorted to that tactic. You do exactly that when you are just trying to argue. The rest of the time you are quite reasonable and I have accepted you.
Drop that hostile tactic and debate honestly, or ignore me, is all I have asked.
| 822 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:34:55pm |
re: #818 Bagua
I did not say that he creeps me out. Sheesh. I said the other day that I'd like to have my bachelor party at his house.
Nuance, dude! I only find furries creepy when they're actually dressed in their costumes. It's like clowns, but furrier.
It is also a personal failing of mine.
| 823 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:35:36pm |
re: #820 Nimed
Is that a cross of demonize and sodomize?
/Yes, I'm a child.
Heh, I'm illiterate when I type too fast.
| 824 |
swamprat Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:36:08pm |
re: #815 Obdicut
You have not 'accepted me'. You have posted several times in the past couple weeks this:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
That's not 'acceptance'.
Thanks. I was going to point out that you tend to get in arguments on Saturdays.
| 825 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:36:48pm |
re: #821 Bagua
I do debate honestly, Bagua, or try my best to. And you cannot claim you have accepted me when you say that I
always deny, distract, claim cluelessness and condemn.
and that you 'care not what I say'.
You cannot have your dismissal-of-me-cake and eat your you-accept-me-cake too. You have to choose either-or.
| 826 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:36:54pm |
re: #822 Obdicut
I did not say that he creeps me out. Sheesh. I said the other day that I'd like to have my bachelor party at his house.
Nuance, dude! I only find furries creepy when they're actually dressed in their costumes. It's like clowns, but furrier.
It is also a personal failing of mine.
Ok, but please acknowledge that I made it clear I am not referencing WindUpBird in my commentary about Windsagio.
| 827 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:37:05pm |
re: #824 swamprat
Thanks. I was going to point out that you tend to get in arguments on Saturdays.
I tend to get into arguments every day.
| 828 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:37:42pm |
re: #826 Bagua
Ok, but please acknowledge that I made it clear I am not referencing WindUpBird in my commentary about Windsagio.
Okay. When you don't refer to WUB, you're not talking about WUB.
| 829 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:37:55pm |
re: #813 Dahak
Am I being just a bit too cynical here, or is it odd that a humanitarian aid ship has its funders' website address plastered across its upper deck?
It's not that odd. They place the web address there to generate support for their cause. In the Antarctic, both Japanese Whalers and their Sea Shepherd enemies paint web addresses on their ships.
| 830 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:38:13pm |
re: #816 Cato the Elder
Thanks Cato. I apologize for my reaction last nite.
| 831 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:42:15pm |
re: #825 Obdicut
I do debate honestly, Bagua, or try my best to. And you cannot claim you have accepted me when you say that I
always deny, distract, claim cluelessness and condemn.
and that you 'care not what I say'.
You cannot have your dismissal-of-me-cake and eat your you-accept-me-cake too. You have to choose either-or.
When you are just arguing, you do follow a clear pattern which is very different from when you are discussing things reasonably. It is a repetitive rhetorical pattern I've noticed. You only use it on the people you are hostile towards. So I will modify my "always" to what I actually mean, which is always when you talk to me.
And by "I've accepted you" I mean I don't look for chances to oppose you. I like a lot of what you write once I've come to understand you better. But I don't accept the way you treat me so I point that out. Nuance Obdicut, nuance.
re: #828 Obdicut
Okay. When you don't refer to WUB, you're not talking about WUB.
Thank you.
| 832 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:43:43pm |
re: #830 Stanley Sea
Thanks Cato. I apologize for my reaction last nite.
If this turns into a group hug I'm going to need a Gin and Tonic first.
| 833 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:45:42pm |
re: #832 Bagua
If this turns into a group hug I'm going to need a Gin and Tonic first.
Grab it and get ready.
| 834 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:46:11pm |
re: #831 Bagua
I think the difference, Bagua, is that when I'm directing it at you you may feel attacked, because of our arguments in the past, and become unreasonable defensive. This is pure speculation on my part, of course. But for example, when you defended the misuse of the word 'strafe'-- that was kind of silly. I wasn't attacking you, I was first asking you what you meant-- since if you had actually wanted the ships strafed, that implied you wanted them attacked-- and then I let you know that you used the wrong word. You interpreted this as an attack. It wasn't an attack.
| 835 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:46:48pm |
re: #831 Bagua
Okay. When you don't refer to WUB, you're not talking about WUB.
Thank you.
Well, when you QFT Racer X's comment about new lizards ugly "true colors", one naturally assumes that you're talking about more than one person.
| 836 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:50:32pm |
re: #835 Nimed
Okay. When you don't refer to WUB, you're not talking about WUB.
Well, when you QFT Racer X's comment about new lizards ugly "true colors", one naturally assumes that you're talking about more than one person.
He was and I am. But why pin the tail on WindUpBird?
| 837 |
Nimed Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:53:50pm |
re: #836 Bagua
He was and I am. But why pin the tail on WindUpBird?
Because he and windsagio are very good friends and often share their opinion on other subjects discussed here. I probably shouldn't have brought it up, since I'm not down with the true colors stuff and the discussion on this had died.
| 838 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:55:25pm |
re: #834 Obdicut
I think the difference, Bagua, is that when I'm directing it at you you may feel attacked, because of our arguments in the past, and become unreasonable defensive. This is pure speculation on my part, of course. But for example, when you defended the misuse of the word 'strafe'-- that was kind of silly. I wasn't attacking you, I was first asking you what you meant-- since if you had actually wanted the ships strafed, that implied you wanted them attacked-- and then I let you know that you used the wrong word. You interpreted this as an attack. It wasn't an attack.
I think we both appear to be invested in past conflicts. We might turn out to be cousins, what's your family name again?
I guess what I am saying is I'd like to have a more positive relationship with you. To do that, we both need to stop interpreting everything in the worst possible way and start communicating. I am willing on my part.
| 839 |
Dahak Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:57:09pm |
re: #829 Dark_Falcon
It's not that odd.
Oh... I know what you mean. And I thought as much as I typed the first message, but the whole "let's put our web address on the roof so when the aerial footage of our boarding gets out and gets plastered over the 'net, we'll have free advertising for the greater glory of our Cause" just tickled my cynicism-bone.
| 840 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 6:59:26pm |
re: #837 Nimed
Because he and windsagio are very good friends and often share their opinion on other subjects discussed here. I probably shouldn't have brought it up, since I'm not down with the true colors stuff and the discussion on this had died.
I know, he kind of gets that "usual suspects" label." I object to it because I find WUB to have his own views, for example he and I agree on media bias whereas Windy seems to consider the media experts that shouldn't be questioned. WUB also doesn't post with the same style, frequency or content. They are friends but different people.
| 841 |
swamprat Sat, Jun 5, 2010 7:01:16pm |
Mandy and Cato do the kumbya, and now this alternate-reality post 838 appears.
I should either buy lottery tickets, or non-hybrid seeds.
| 843 |
Targetpractice Sat, Jun 5, 2010 7:03:39pm |
| 844 |
nhand42 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 7:13:17pm |
I can't agree with the tone here. Comments like "radical Islamists" are neither enlightening nor accurate. Also the constant bashing of sites like Huff and Kos prove that despite this blog owner's attempt to move past partisan politics, too many visitors here are still stuck in the "us vs them" mentality.
There are other interpretations of this tragedy; ones that don't involve "radical Islamists" who "hate Israel". Interpretations such as a scared country with an ingrained culture of distrust for their neighbours allows fear to justify the worst excesses of violence against peaceful aid workers. Where frightened aid workers believe they are under lethal attack and defend themselves inexpertly. Where the violence escalates until innocent people have been killed. Why does any of that have to turn into more political point-scoring bollocks for Republicans vs Democrats? That political football makes me even sicker than the unnecessary deaths of aid workers.
Like Charles, I am also disappointed with the sheer insanity of the modern right wing movement. Unfortunately I still see too much of that insanity amongst people I'd otherwise consider quite rational, when the topic turns to Israel and Islam.
| 845 |
Four More Tears Sat, Jun 5, 2010 7:16:37pm |
re: #844 nhand42
You won't find many voices here that'll agree with your "peaceful aid-worker" stance. Also, The Kos and HuffPo criticism had been at a lull until his incident blew up. The comments there are horrific. Would I be wrong to assume that you've written a few of those?
| 846 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 5, 2010 7:20:03pm |
The 15th and last naval commando from Flotilla 13 (the Shayetet) to rappel down onto the ship from the helicopter, S. said on Thursday that he was immediately attacked by what the IDF has called “the mob of mercenaries” aboard the vessel, just like the soldiers who had boarded just before him.
Looking to his side, he saw three of his commanders lying wounded – one with a gunshot wound to the stomach and another with a gunshot wound to the knee. A third was lying unconscious; his skull was fractured by a devastating blow with a metal bar.
As the next in the chain of command, S., who has been in the Shayetet for three and a half years, immediately took charge.
He pushed the wounded soldiers up against the wall of the upper deck and created a perimeter of soldiers around them to begin treating their wounds, he said. He then arranged his men to form a second perimeter, and pulled out his 9 mm. Glock pistol to stave off the charging attackers and to protect his wounded comrades.
The attackers had already seized two pistols from the commandos, and fired repeatedly at them. Facing more than a dozen of the mercenaries, and convinced their lives were in danger, he and his colleagues opened fire, he said. S. singlehandedly killed six men. His colleagues killed another three.
The group was well trained and was split into a number of squads of about 20 mercenaries each distributed throughout the upper deck, the IDF said. All of the mercenaries wore gas masks and ceramic bulletproof vests and were armed with either bats, slingshots, metal bars, knives or stun grenades.
| 848 |
nhand42 Sat, Jun 5, 2010 7:29:27pm |
re: #845 JasonA
You won't find many voices here that'll agree with your "peaceful aid-worker" stance.
That was entirely my point. The interpretation here is lopsided because the overwhelming "us vs them" mentality requires it to be so.
Also, The Kos and HuffPo criticism had been at a lull until his incident blew up. The comments there are horrific. Would I be wrong to assume that you've written a few of those?
Yes, you would be wrong. I've never posted on Kos or Huff. I don't read them either (I do read C&L and LGF regularly).
| 849 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 5, 2010 7:47:42pm |
re: #844 nhand42
I can't agree with the tone here. Comments like "radical Islamists" are neither enlightening nor accurate. Also the constant bashing of sites like Huff and Kos prove that despite this blog owner's attempt to move past partisan politics, too many visitors here are still stuck in the "us vs them" mentality.
There is also quite a bit of bashing of right wing sites such as Michelle Malkin, Hot Air, many others, but perhaps those tinted glasses of yours caused you to miss all of that
There are other interpretations of this tragedy; ones that don't involve "radical Islamists" who "hate Israel". Interpretations such as a scared country with an ingrained culture of distrust for their neighbours allows fear to justify the worst excesses of violence against peaceful aid workers.
When the charter of the group that is governing those neighbors calls for the desctruction of your country, and they prove it daily by lobbing bombs into your country, and sending suicide bombers into your country, then there might, just might, be good reason for a bit of distrust, and a need to take measures to protect oneself, wouldn't you think?
Where frightened aid workers believe they are under lethal attack and defend themselves inexpertly.
The "aid workers" defended themselves quite expertly, and if you have watched the videos, you would have seen one of those oh-so-peaceful aid workers savagely stabbing one of the Israeli soldiers, lethally armed with a paintball gun.
| 850 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 7:48:15pm |
re: #840 Bagua
I know, he kind of gets that "usual suspects" label." I object to it because I find WUB to have his own views, for example he and I agree on media bias whereas Windy seems to consider the media experts that shouldn't be questioned. WUB also doesn't post with the same style, frequency or content. They are friends but different people.
Windy is not a fan of cable news ;-)
| 851 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jun 5, 2010 7:50:10pm |
re: #828 Obdicut
Okay. When you don't refer to WUB, you're not talking about WUB.
| 852 |
Obdicut Sat, Jun 5, 2010 8:15:21pm |
re: #848 nhand42
Peaceful aid workers don't stab people.
Non-violent protest is a beautiful thing. It is too bad that the people on board that ship didn't engage in it.
| 853 |
Truth Dr. Sat, Jun 5, 2010 9:00:58pm |
The issue that I don't understand after reading all of the "brilliant" editorials about how this destroyed Israel's relationship with Turkey is why, if Turkey was such a great friend of Israel's, would Turkey not have asked Israel to deliver the aid to the "needy" Gazans through regular channels? Why the need for a boat filled with Radical Islamists? Why the need to challenge a blockade for which Israel had legitimate reasons for maintaining? If anyone is to blame for deaths on the boat, it's the Turks who allowed and encouraged the boat to go. That is who is to blame for this fiasco.
| 854 |
Truth Dr. Sat, Jun 5, 2010 9:03:39pm |
The Free Gaza Movement must be relying on this excerpt of the Hamas Charter to justify their characterization as peace activities:
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
| 855 |
Truth Dr. Sat, Jun 5, 2010 9:05:47pm |
It is worth noting that Hamas is not composed of plagarists. They cite the sources for their world view in their Charter. For example, the Charter states the following:
"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
It's always nice that Ron Paul, Pat Buchanan, Ahmadenijad, Helen Thomas, David Duke, Naomi Klein and Noam Chomsky can gather round the table and find something in common.
| 856 |
Truth Dr. Sat, Jun 5, 2010 9:08:31pm |
To those who want an idea of what the party the people of Gaza elected as their leaders thinks, here's another piece from the Hamas Charter:
Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).
The enlightened prose above allows me to see where Cato the Elder was coming from. Next time you hear someone say the Palestinian cause is a "progressive cause", ask them to define "progressive" because by their definition, Nazism may also be a progressive cause.
| 857 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 5, 2010 9:20:14pm |
re: #856 Truth Dr.
To those who want an idea of what the party the people of Gaza elected as their leaders thinks, here's another piece from the Hamas Charter:
Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).
The enlightened prose above allows me to see where Cato the Elder was coming from. Next time you hear someone say the Palestinian cause is a "progressive cause", ask them to define "progressive" because by their definition, Nazism may also be a progressive cause.
These things cannot be emphasized enough: the Hamas Charter means what it says, and says what it means.
But I have almost never been successful in getting a lefty apologist for the Palestinians to read it. I've been told it doesn't matter, that it's just rhetoric, that this is to be expected of people who are oppressed, that somehow it will all evaporate into peace, love and understanding if only Israel would do thus and so.
These are the same kind of people who refused to read "Mein Kampf" when Hitler still could have been stopped, and who, if forced to confront a quote or two from that book, dismissed it has political talk.
History repeats itself.
| 858 |
Truth Dr. Sat, Jun 5, 2010 9:29:01pm |
Cato - You are absolutely correct. I am tired of having so-called journalists like Patrick Martin in the Globe and Mail "explain" to me how Hamas is not really what Hamas says it is or interview "activists" who were on the flotilla ships who contradict the very clear evidence provided by Israel. Israel confiscated the film from the ship so that they could show it to the world before the "activists" could destroy it. I remember hearing people say that the Holocaust could never happen again but watching the propoganda and its parroting by many of the elements of the MSM, it's hard not to see how things transpired in Nazi Germany and how the same thing could happen today.
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