Poll: Should Reuters/AP Let Readers Know When Photos Come from Questionable Sources?
Poll • Views: 2,892
603 comments
2 |
brookly red Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:43:14pm |
How about just gimmie the truth?
no I really didn’t think so….
| 3 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:44:27pm |
Six out of ten people polled* think that EmmmieG is the smartest woman on the planet.
*The ten people were all relatives, but it’s up to you to figure that out. I’ll be busy pummeling my four sisters until they admit I’m smarter than them.
| 4 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:45:17pm |
I don’t think that will ever happen. It would require news agencies do the necessary due diligence and I’m sure they don’t want the whole world to know they don’t vet their stringers or photographers.
Remember ‘Helmet Guy’ in Beirut/south Lebanon? They went to great lengths to hide the fact he was a Hizbollah shill.
| 5 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:45:36pm |
| 6 |
Vicious Babushka Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:46:06pm |
Yeah it would be nice if biased news organizations were honest about their sources, but face it, that’s never gonna happen.
| 7 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:46:07pm |
re: #3 EmmmieG
Six out of ten people polled* think that EmmmieG is the smartest woman on the planet.
*The ten people were all relatives, but it’s up to you to figure that out. I’ll be busy pummeling my four sisters until they admit I’m smarter than them.
Only six? I smell a rat…
| 8 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:46:10pm |
re: #2 brookly red
How about just gimmie the truth?
no I really didn’t think so…
////You can’t handle the truth! No, I deride your truth handling capabilities!
| 9 |
The Shadow Do Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:46:17pm |
TGIF Little Green Zionists!
I did not have to agonize long on this one.
Should have asked about my favorite color.
| 10 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:47:35pm |
Undecided.
I don’t think I’ve ever read a photographers name (or paid attention to it) in a photo anyway.
| 11 |
ryannon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:47:58pm |
But since you have asked, I don’t think that media should use ‘questionable’ sources for photos or video at all. No more than ‘questionable’ journalists filing ‘questionable’ stories full of ‘questionable’ facts.
| 12 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:50:01pm |
re: #7 researchok
Only six? I smell a rat…
Re-read it. Four sisters. I can probably count on my mother, my father, my grandmother, at least one uncle, my husband and the five year old, especially if I make myself the only person on the poll, but my sisters? Not happening.
(They would all happily put me at #2, though.)
| 13 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:51:27pm |
re: #11 ryannon
Photos are photos, y’know? Sometimes its the only source you have.
I’m personally thinking that in the modern era, we have more than adequate means to police the news sources anyways (just look at this damn Reuters debacle).
| 14 |
Vicious Babushka Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:51:43pm |
This week’s Sabbath menu:
Gefilte fish
Ginger marinated salmon
Olive pasta salad*
Philadelphia cole slaw*
Chicken soup with matzah balls
Israeli fried chicken*
wine: Gamla Chardonnay
dessert: Pecan pie (it came out kind of hard, but still good, in Zedushka’s words, “some kind of chewy Middle-eastern baklava dessert”)
*The recipes can be found in the LGF Cookbook vol. 2
| 15 |
brookly red Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:51:55pm |
| 16 |
brookly red Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:53:15pm |
re: #8 jamesfirecat
///You can’t handle the truth! No, I deride your truth handling capabilities!
of course it can, I never listen to you do I?
| 17 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:53:19pm |
re: #14 Alouette
Have a good shabbos, Alouette. (Not sure how to say that properly.)
| 18 |
allegro Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:53:30pm |
re: #13 windsagio
Photos are photos, y’know? Sometimes its the only source you have.
I was kinda thinking the same thing. Photos are both subjective, as seen through the eye of the photographer in framing, and objective, as a record of a moment in time. I’m trying to define “questionable” and its application.
| 19 |
Achilles Tang Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:54:03pm |
Al Reuters, Al AFP, Al Ap and more are all mini Googles just printing what’s in their mailboxes from hired slingers/stringers.
They wouldn’t know a questionable source from an unquestionable one.
Hence the poll is invalid.
| 20 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:54:20pm |
| 21 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:56:11pm |
re: #18 allegro
Questionable in this case means ‘from a photographer who might have a bias’.
| 22 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:56:33pm |
re: #17 EmmmieG
Have a good shabbos, Alouette. (Not sure how to say that properly.)
Al (like Al Bundy) Lou (like Ed Asner’s character) et (like “have you et yet??”)
| 23 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:56:43pm |
re: #19 Naso Tang
For a long time freelancers were the backbone of good investigative reporting, and often the only reporters on site.
This hasn’t particularly changed.
| 25 |
The Shadow Do Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:57:34pm |
I have a more serious question. I just caught a minute or two of an interview with the English soccer coach, Fabio Capello or some such? An Italian coach for a British national team, what is that all about?
Should America have a French coach? How does this work?
Or maybe we should have a Mexican coach. Doing work Americans won’t do don’t care about?
I predict a blowout game by the way. England 1, USA 0 in a very exciting shootout!
/soccer sucks
| 26 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:58:00pm |
| 27 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:58:03pm |
re: #22 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Al (like Al Bundy) Lou (like Ed Asner’s character) et (like “have you et yet??”)
Thank you, I have taken French. I mean the shabbos part, silly.
| 28 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:58:14pm |
I live very nicely without Reuters, Fox or any other MSM…I vote thus, I don’t give a shit….distrust all of it and you’d be correct about 3/4 of the time
| 29 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Jun 11, 2010 4:59:00pm |
re: #18 allegro
I was kinda thinking the same thing. Photos are both subjective, as seen through the eye of the photographer in framing, and objective, as a record of a moment in time. I’m trying to define “questionable” and its application.
Well, the definition of questionable isn’t exactly fixed. However, in cases like the Adem Ozkose photos I don’t think there’s much doubt that his background is an important part of the context. There may be some gray areas, but there are also a lot of cases where the lines seem pretty clear to me.
| 32 |
Achilles Tang Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:00:31pm |
re: #23 windsagio
For a long time freelancers were the backbone of good investigative reporting, and often the only reporters on site.
This hasn’t particularly changed.
Something has changed when any terrorist group can get a freelancer onto the payroll of the MSM, again and again and again.
| 33 |
allegro Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:01:04pm |
re: #21 windsagio
Questionable in this case means ‘from a photographer who might have a bias’.
I get that, however it seems the bias would be in the eye of the beholder in a photo. Meaning, the photo itself is simply a snap of what happened. Bias would only enter in a selective showing of photos from a particular event to weave a story, or in a written text accompanying the photo to tell someone how to view it or the surrounding event. Now THAT can be biased and influence one’s perception of a photo.
| 34 |
Targetpractice Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:01:07pm |
I picked D, “Jeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwsssssss!!!!”
///
| 35 |
Achilles Tang Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:02:14pm |
re: #24 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
That’s why I am undecided.
I don’t think you are undecided, you just had to click on something.
| 36 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:02:40pm |
re: #32 Naso Tang
Something has changed when any terrorist group can get a freelancer onto the payroll of the MSM, again and again and again.
and then get boned by a CA blogger and his peeps
ahahaha!
budget…
Reuters…trillions
LGF….$6
| 37 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:02:49pm |
re: #32 Naso Tang
Doesn’t negate that there’s a fair deal of useful freelance journalism going on.
Like take this Reuters thing. Once the Cropping thing was exposed (and it was exposed quickly) those are useful an telling photographs, that we wouldn’t have any other way.
The agencies have a responsibility to police their sources, but those sources are still often the only good source of this stuff.
| 38 |
Ebetty Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:03:39pm |
News organizations look rather absurd when they hire stringers and photographers with shady associations, refuse to vet them and then go on-air to criticize any Administration for obfuscating the truth, or just average complaints about government secrecy, etc. Be clear, accurate, succinct and have employees with background checks. I won’t hold my breath for that to happen, but it would improve the quality of the news.
| 39 |
ryannon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:03:47pm |
re: #13 windsagio
Photos are photos, y’know? Sometimes its the only source you have.
I’m personally thinking that in the modern era, we have more than adequate means to police the news sources anyways (just look at this damn Reuters debacle).
I’m not certain about the ‘adequate means’ part.
Charles and Killgore can’t police everything. I don’t see many others dong much about it.
| 40 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:04:03pm |
re: #12 EmmmieG
Re-read it. Four sisters. I can probably count on my mother, my father, my grandmother, at least one uncle, my husband and the five year old, especially if I make myself the only person on the poll, but my sisters? Not happening.
(They would all happily put me at #2, though.)
Next time, put it a general election.
I have a close, close friend who can run the campaign.
| 41 |
allegro Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:04:16pm |
re: #29 Charles
However, in cases like the Adem Ozkose photos I don’t think there’s much doubt that his background is an important part of the context. There may be some gray areas, but there are also a lot of cases where the lines seem pretty clear to me.
Without question. As I said, a photo is subjective on the part of the photographer in its framing. It also is in its timing. I’m mostly just over-thinking again and going, “Hmmm, interesting question.”
| 42 |
Achilles Tang Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:04:32pm |
| 43 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:05:28pm |
I know Ansel Adams would definitely be against any cropping.
| 44 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:05:45pm |
re: #24 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
That’s why I am undecided.
Or, they could ask for references, etc., as a condition of payment.
| 45 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:06:07pm |
re: #39 ryannon
The ‘net does a pretty good job in general, really.
| 46 |
Achilles Tang Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:06:40pm |
re: #37 windsagio
Doesn’t negate that there’s a fair deal of useful freelance journalism going on.
Of course. Too bad there isn’t at least as much full time editorialism (or whatever they call what they do) going on.
| 47 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:06:42pm |
re: #44 researchok
Or, they could ask for references, etc., as a condition of payment.
They are reporters. They dig up facts. Finding info on this guy wasn’t that hard.
| 48 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:07:55pm |
re: #14 Alouette
This week’s Sabbath menu:
Gefilte fish
Ginger marinated salmon
Olive pasta salad*
Philadelphia cole slaw*
Chicken soup with matzah balls
Israeli fried chicken*
wine: Gamla Chardonnay
dessert: Pecan pie (it came out kind of hard, but still good, in Zedushka’s words, “some kind of chewy Middle-eastern baklava dessert”)*The recipes can be found in the LGF Cookbook vol. 2
I’m a big chicken soup fan, but my mother already is excellent at making it. I’m still planning to ge the cookbook once I’ve got the spare money.
| 49 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:08:02pm |
re: #47 EmmmieG
They are reporters. They dig up facts. Finding info on this guy wasn’t that hard.
I think they knew. It wasn’t of concern because he was aligned with their editorial position.
| 50 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:08:20pm |
re: #45 windsagio
The ‘net does a pretty good job in general, really.
what?…that’s just absurd…exactly who polices themselves adequately….in general?
| 51 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:11:04pm |
I have a bit of a problem with the question. How do you determine that it is questionable? (not talking about Oskoze but about much more subtle photos)
| 52 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:13:37pm |
re: #51 KDS1
I have a bit of a problem with the question. How do you determine that it is questionable? (not talking about Oskoze but about much more subtle photos)
lot’s of surfing, lots of folders, and a hell of a lot of time…for me I usually defer to Charles and a few others…deceit on the internet is rampant
| 53 |
brookly red Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:14:06pm |
re: #50 albusteve
what?…that’s just absurd…exactly who polices themselves adequately…in general?
I Goggled in general…
Some people live an entire lifetime and wonder if they have ever made a difference in the world, but the Marines don’t have that problem.
—Ronald Reagan—
cool yes?
| 54 |
darthstar Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:14:54pm |
I think people should only take photographs that support the accepted narrative. Then there’s no reason to worry about biased pixels.
/
| 55 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:14:58pm |
re: #53 brookly red
I Goggled in general…
Some people live an entire lifetime and wonder if they have ever made a difference in the world, but the Marines don’t have that problem.
—Ronald Reagan—cool yes?
Very cool.
| 56 |
brookly red Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:15:30pm |
re: #51 KDS1
I have a bit of a problem with the question. How do you determine that it is questionable? (not talking about Oskoze but about much more subtle photos)
you sound so American to me… are you sure your from the holly land?
| 57 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:15:38pm |
re: #54 darthstar
“If I don’t agree with it, its obviously biased!”, eh? :D
| 58 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:15:48pm |
They should expose questionable sources but Reuters problem wasn’t really the source of the pictures it was that they tried to sanitize them for a western audience. Adem Ozkose is a creep but I think he’s fairly honest about who he is and his pictures were presented in their entirety to his audience. He may be a jihadist creep but he’s honest about it, unlike the Reuters photo editor.
| 59 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:16:56pm |
re: #53 brookly red
I Goggled in general…
Some people live an entire lifetime and wonder if they have ever made a difference in the world, but the Marines don’t have that problem.
—Ronald Reagan—cool yes?
I dig it…pass the Red Stripe!
my dad was Jarhead
here’s to Charlie!
| 60 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:18:25pm |
re: #58 Killgore Trout
They should expose questionable sources but Reuters problem wasn’t really the source of the pictures it was that they tried to sanitize them for a western audience. Adem Ozkose is a creep but I think he’s fairly honest about who he is and his pictures were presented in their entirety to his audience. He may be a jihadist creep but he’s honest about it, unlike the Reuters photo editor.
got a name yet?
or is that a dead end?
| 61 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:18:30pm |
This poll is hopelessly flawed!
.
Where’s the choice for D: Ron Paul?
| 62 |
darthstar Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:18:36pm |
re: #57 windsagio
“If I don’t agree with it, its obviously biased!”, eh? :D
| 63 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:18:40pm |
re: #52 albusteve
lot’s of surfing, lots of folders, and a hell of a lot of time…for me I usually defer to Charles and a few others…deceit on the internet is rampant
I’m just thinking- lets say you have a Danish reporter in the ME, covering stories about the israeli-palestinian conflict or whatever they call it today. She has no history of being very biased, she is known to be a bit to the left, but nothing radical. And then she gets some great photos from Gaza, that she altered just a little to give it a new meaning, in a way that you and me might find as manipulating. How can we know that she is questionable?
I just think that there will always be unreliable journalism, it really hard to put your finger on it all the time…
| 64 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:18:56pm |
I’ll also praise the Western Peace activists and human shields. They are posting their unedited videos. They might be morally bankrupt degenerates abut at least they’re honest about it.
| 65 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:19:10pm |
re: #56 brookly red
you sound so American to me… are you sure your from the holly land?
Im here right now.
| 66 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:19:29pm |
Would Dan Rather be considered reliable?
| 67 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:20:11pm |
Hellz yes!
And that goes for Fox News and its crazy-ass white supremacists double!
| 68 |
brownbagj Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:20:18pm |
Why isn’t Ron Paul on this poll. You know he would win!!
/
| 69 |
brookly red Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:20:21pm |
re: #63 KDS1
I’m just thinking- lets say you have a Danish reporter in the ME, covering stories about the israeli-palestinian conflict or whatever they call it today. She has no history of being very biased, she is known to be a bit to the left, but nothing radical. And then she gets some great photos from Gaza, that she altered just a little to give it a new meaning, in a way that you and me might find as manipulating. How can we know that she is questionable?
I just think that there will always be unreliable journalism, it really hard to put your finger on it all the time…
your american speak is improving too…
| 70 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:20:37pm |
re: #66 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Would Dan Rather be considered reliable?
Great point. He was certainly reputable at the time but he was dishonest.
| 71 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:21:17pm |
re: #63 KDS1
I’m just thinking- lets say you have a Danish reporter in the ME, covering stories about the israeli-palestinian conflict or whatever they call it today. She has no history of being very biased, she is known to be a bit to the left, but nothing radical. And then she gets some great photos from Gaza, that she altered just a little to give it a new meaning, in a way that you and me might find as manipulating. How can we know that she is questionable?
I just think that there will always be unreliable journalism, it really hard to put your finger on it all the time…
journalism is like sex…unreliable, and often flawed
| 72 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:22:04pm |
This is a good article on those would-be jihadis arrested in New Jersey:
New Yorkistan?: Initial lessons from the latest homegrown terror plot by Judith Miller
They had ambitious dreams, these guys. They would astonish the world, making it big by killing lots of American soldiers overseas in Somalia or at home in America. Worst case: they would die as holy warriors and become, if not rich, famous.
“My soul cannot rest til I shed blood,” Mohamed Mahmood Alessa, the 20-year-old, American-born son of Palestinian parents, told his putative partner in crime, Eduardo Almonte, 24, according to the criminal complaint filed in federal district court this week. Alessa considered fellow Muslim Major Nidal Malik Hasan, the naturalized U.S. Army psychiatrist who gunned down 13 fellow soldiers and civilians at Fort Hood last November, a nut and an amateur. “I’ll do twice what he did,” Alessa vowed. “I wanna, like, be the world’s known terrorist.”
Fortunately, Alessa was plotting not only with Almonte, but also with an undercover officer from the New York Police Department’s Intelligence Division, who was recording every word. As a result, the duo were arrested Saturday night as they tried boarding separate Cairo-bound planes on their way to Somalia, where they intended to join an al-Qaida-affiliated, Somalia-based terrorist group called Al Shabab, or “the guys” in Arabic. On Monday, they were arraigned in federal court in Newark, accused of conspiring to commit murder, kidnapping, maiming, and mayhem in the name of God.
| 73 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:22:20pm |
re: #58 Killgore Trout
They should expose questionable sources but Reuters problem wasn’t really the source of the pictures it was that they tried to sanitize them for a western audience. Adem Ozkose is a creep but I think he’s fairly honest about who he is and his pictures were presented in their entirety to his audience. He may be a jihadist creep but he’s honest about it, unlike the Reuters photo editor.
He could afford to be honest.
Reuters was a more than willing buyer. They questioned nothing- and it isn’t as if they didn’t have the technology and expertise with images.
| 74 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:23:02pm |
| 75 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:23:47pm |
re: #64 Killgore Trout
I’ll also praise the Western Peace activists and human shields. They are posting their unedited videos. They might be morally bankrupt degenerates abut at least they’re honest about it.
Maybe seeing Reuters get smacked taught them a lesson.
| 76 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:24:26pm |
re: #71 albusteve
journalism is like sex…unreliable, and often flawed
Journalism is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you’re going to get.
| 77 |
darthstar Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:24:40pm |
re: #64 Killgore Trout
I’ll also praise the Western Peace activists and human shields. They are posting their unedited videos. They might be morally bankrupt degenerates abut at least they’re honest about it.
What makes them “morally bankrupt degenerates”? Standing up for what they believe in? Granted, you disagree with their position on this issue, but does a difference of opinion on one issue equal moral superiority? When we learn to accept that others may disagree with us we stop being like them.
Just saying…and for the record, I don’t support terrorism, Hamas, or the destruction of Israel myself…nor do I think most of the “degenerates” on the flotilla support the destruction of Israel.
| 78 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:24:46pm |
re: #72 Dark_Falcon
This is a good article on those would-be jihadis arrested in New Jersey:
New Yorkistan?: Initial lessons from the latest homegrown terror plot by Judith Miller
Good job ,NYPD…!
| 80 |
brookly red Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:24:59pm |
| 81 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:25:29pm |
re: #54 darthstar
I think people should only take photographs that support the accepted narrative. Then there’s no reason to worry about biased pixels.
/
That is exactly the problem with media framing. Even without the cropping, they choose what to photograph and how. Thus they set the agenda as to what is newsworthy, and also choose how that news is portrayed.
| 82 |
ryannon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:25:37pm |
re: #56 brookly red
you sound so American to me… are you sure your from the holly land?
Maybe Pasadena.
| 85 |
EdDantes Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:26:18pm |
OT. Please forgive me but I have once again been on youtube. And, once again. I have been listening to and watching Gene Krupa. I discovered him in the 70’s when I was a teenager. If he is not best drummer who ever lived please point me to the best. My previous favorite was Ginger Baker, BTW.
I now return you to the current thread.
| 86 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:26:23pm |
re: #58 Killgore Trout
They should expose questionable sources but Reuters problem wasn’t really the source of the pictures it was that they tried to sanitize them for a western audience. Adem Ozkose is a creep but I think he’s fairly honest about who he is and his pictures were presented in their entirety to his audience. He may be a jihadist creep but he’s honest about it, unlike the Reuters photo editor.
Spot on.
| 87 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:26:44pm |
| 88 |
darthstar Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:26:45pm |
re: #81 Bagua
That is exactly the problem with media framing. Even without the cropping, they choose what to photograph and how. Thus they set the agenda as to what is newsworthy, and also choose how that news is portrayed.
That’s why I only get my news from Fox…they’re fair and balanced.
/
| 89 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:26:55pm |
re: #73 researchok
He could afford to be honest.
Reuters was a more than willing buyer. They questioned nothing- and it isn’t as if they didn’t have the technology and expertise with images.
Reuters could have said…
“hey Israel, we’re buying these pics from a Turk affiliated with, (here and here) who was on the Love Boat when it went down….as soon as we get them we will send them along but realize we want to publish these things and get them out there…will be in touch”
| 90 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:27:15pm |
re: #77 darthstar
What makes them “morally bankrupt degenerates”? Standing up for what they believe in? Granted, you disagree with their position on this issue, but does a difference of opinion on one issue equal moral superiority? When we learn to accept that others may disagree with us we stop being like them.
Just saying…and for the record, I don’t support terrorism, Hamas, or the destruction of Israel myself…nor do I think most of the “degenerates” on the flotilla support the destruction of Israel.
Ideologies that are predicated on racism, bigotry and hate qualifies as ‘morally degenerate’.
There is no moral equivalence to other popular or unpopular ideas.
| 91 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:27:17pm |
re: #79 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I’m changing my vote to “No”.
It says I already voted… waaah!
Hanging chad!
| 92 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:27:39pm |
| 93 |
brownbagj Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:28:00pm |
re: #77 darthstar
What makes them “morally bankrupt degenerates”? Standing up for what they believe in? Granted, you disagree with their position on this issue, but does a difference of opinion on one issue equal moral superiority? When we learn to accept that others may disagree with us we stop being like them.
Just saying…and for the record, I don’t support terrorism, Hamas, or the destruction of Israel myself…nor do I think most of the “degenerates” on the flotilla support the destruction of Israel.
There are things that if you support, I can claim moral superiority. Such as supporting an entity that wishes to bring another holocaust to Israel.
Sometimes, things are actually pretty black and white.
| 94 |
brookly red Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:28:26pm |
| 95 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:29:14pm |
re: #77 darthstar
What makes them “morally bankrupt degenerates”? Standing up for what they believe in? Granted, you disagree with their position on this issue, but does a difference of opinion on one issue equal moral superiority? When we learn to accept that others may disagree with us we stop being like them.
Just saying…and for the record, I don’t support terrorism, Hamas, or the destruction of Israel myself…nor do I think most of the “degenerates” on the flotilla support the destruction of Israel.
Shh, you’re getting in the way of the dehumanization!
| 96 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:29:17pm |
re: #77 darthstar
What makes them “morally bankrupt degenerates”? Standing up for what they believe in? Granted, you disagree with their position on this issue, but does a difference of opinion on one issue equal moral superiority? When we learn to accept that others may disagree with us we stop being like them.
Just saying…and for the record, I don’t support terrorism, Hamas, or the destruction of Israel myself…nor do I think most of the “degenerates” on the flotilla support the destruction of Israel.
yes they do, or they would not be there…these were the big yen superstars of the Hamas movement…you can bet on it
| 97 |
ryannon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:29:22pm |
re: #77 darthstar
What makes them “morally bankrupt degenerates”? Standing up for what they believe in? Granted, you disagree with their position on this issue, but does a difference of opinion on one issue equal moral superiority? When we learn to accept that others may disagree with us we stop being like them.
Just saying…and for the record, I don’t support terrorism, Hamas, or the destruction of Israel myself…nor do I think most of the “degenerates” on the flotilla support the destruction of Israel.
Useful idiots. They’re supporting the people who do.
| 99 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:30:00pm |
re: #77 darthstar
What makes them “morally bankrupt degenerates”? Standing up for what they believe in? Granted, you disagree with their position on this issue, but does a difference of opinion on one issue equal moral superiority? When we learn to accept that others may disagree with us we stop being like them.
Just saying…and for the record, I don’t support terrorism, Hamas, or the destruction of Israel myself…nor do I think most of the “degenerates” on the flotilla support the destruction of Israel.
They are shilling for for an Islamist ‘charity’ that sent jihadis out to murder Jews. To support such people in the name of peace is morally bankrupt.
| 100 |
brownbagj Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:30:23pm |
| 101 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:30:30pm |
re: #89 albusteve
Reuters could have said…
“hey Israel, we’re buying these pics from a Turk affiliated with, (here and here) who was on the Love Boat when it went down…as soon as we get them we will send them along but realize we want to publish these things and get them out there…will be in touch”
In fact, if you leave it to them, you will only see cropped images. Turkish papers posted the original photos, then somehow Reuters got their hands on some cropped photos… So i dont think informing ISrael is the issue here
| 102 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:30:30pm |
re: #97 ryannon
Doesn’t make them ‘morally bankrupt degenerates’ at all, however.
If they’re dupes they’re dupes, thats different from being evil.
| 103 |
darthstar Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:31:00pm |
Well, I guess those people are fucked, then.
| 104 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:31:22pm |
re: #100 brownbagj
Typing with a two year old on my knee. Do you ever make a mistake?
You actually spelled it right, the typo was mine :p
I was more laughing at the mad strong language you were using.
| 105 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:31:58pm |
re: #77 darthstar
What makes them “morally bankrupt degenerates”? Standing up for what they believe in? Granted, you disagree with their position on this issue, but does a difference of opinion on one issue equal moral superiority? When we learn to accept that others may disagree with us we stop being like them.
Just saying…and for the record, I don’t support terrorism, Hamas, or the destruction of Israel myself…nor do I think most of the “degenerates” on the flotilla support the destruction of Israel.
And you reach this conclusion how, pray?
Or is it just wussful thinking on your part?
| 106 |
brownbagj Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:32:28pm |
re: #102 windsagio
Doesn’t make them ‘morally bankrupt degenerates’ at all, however.
If they’re dupes they’re dupes, thats different from being evil.
I disagree. You put yourself in the middle of situations like this, it is up to you to know what you are dealing with and supporting.
Ignorance is no excuse.re: #104 windsagio
You actually spelled it right, the typo was mine :p
I was more laughing at the mad strong language you were using.
Sorry, two kids on my knees now. I thought I had.
I do not believe it is too strong of a language, as this is exactly what Hamas and their ilk support.
| 107 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:32:29pm |
| 108 |
Tiny alien kittens are watching you Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:32:30pm |
Should Fox news acknowledge that their “Fair and Balanced” slogan is a complete fraud that actually means the exact opposite of those terms? SSDD.
| 109 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:33:21pm |
Seriously, this is silly.
The meme seems to be “I don’t agree with what they did, so they must be evil people.”
They could be foolish, mistaken, stupid, whatever. I’d put good money down that most of the European/American peace activists really don’t hate Jews.
| 110 |
brookly red Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:33:39pm |
| 111 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:33:53pm |
re: #109 windsagio
Seriously, this is silly.
The meme seems to be “I don’t agree with what they did, so they must be evil people.”
They could be foolish, mistaken, stupid, whatever. I’d put good money down that most of the European/American peace activists really don’t hate Jews.
More wussful thinking.
| 112 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:33:55pm |
re: #102 windsagio
Doesn’t make them ‘morally bankrupt degenerates’ at all, however.
If they’re dupes they’re dupes, thats different from being evil.
close to it if you are so duped in spite of overwhelming reason and evidence, there is no excuse…evil, stupid, and part of the problem
| 113 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:33:58pm |
re: #106 brownbagj
Holocaust references are one of those things that should be used lightly, at least if you’re being serious :P
| 114 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:34:03pm |
re: #97 ryannon
Useful idiots. They’re supporting the people who do.
It’s more tha simple ‘support’. They kmnow who these people are and what they believe. It’s not a secret and they don’t really hide it it.
This isn’t about the Palestinians or their supporters. It is about an absolutely selfish expression..
They want to say to the world, ‘LOOK AT ME! LOOK HOW WONDERFUL I AM!’
They have no real morality of their own so they adopt a cause outside of themselves
Take away the attention and the cameras and they will fade away. They will migrate to wherever they can elicit worship. They could care less about the cause they adopt.
| 115 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:35:03pm |
re: #77 darthstar
What makes them “morally bankrupt degenerates”? Standing up for what they believe in? Granted, you disagree with their position on this issue, but does a difference of opinion on one issue equal moral superiority? When we learn to accept that others may disagree with us we stop being like them.
Just saying…and for the record, I don’t support terrorism, Hamas, or the destruction of Israel myself…nor do I think most of the “degenerates” on the flotilla support the destruction of Israel.
I think the the peace activists and human shields are sincere in thier beliefs but they are so dreadfully wrong and willfully ignorant that they are at their core morally inverted. These are the same types of people who showed up in Baghdad to serve as human shields for Saddam Hussein.
Psychologically, most of them are probably pretty similar to the ladies who fall in love with famous convicted serial killers. Some people are just warped.
For other people, like Ken O’Keefe, the violent thugs are kindred souls.
It all does boil down to a warped world view.
There are many reasonable arguments to be had about Israel and the Palestinians. Western lefties supporting terrorist organizations is not helpful or reasonable.
| 116 |
ryannon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:35:05pm |
re: #102 windsagio
Doesn’t make them ‘morally bankrupt degenerates’ at all, however.
If they’re dupes they’re dupes, thats different from being evil.
I was responding to this part:
“Just saying…and for the record, I don’t support terrorism, Hamas, or the destruction of Israel myself…nor do I think most of the “degenerates” on the flotilla support the destruction of Israel.”
| 117 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:35:05pm |
re: #114 researchok
Good lord man!
And people accuse me of unfairly ascribing motivations to people!
| 118 |
brownbagj Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:35:07pm |
re: #113 windsagio
Holocaust references are one of those things that should be used lightly, at least if you’re being serious :P
So, what do you think Hamas is for? Peace and cookies?
| 119 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:35:11pm |
| 120 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:35:33pm |
re: #108 ausador
Should Fox news acknowledge that their “Fair and Balanced” slogan is a complete fraud that actually means the exact opposite of those terms? SSDD.
Its just a slogan. Its there to sell. Its not less balanced then CNN or BBC.
| 121 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:36:09pm |
When Reuters does it, the left whines and makes excuses, or takes no notice.
When Fox does it, the right does the same.
LGF is one of the few places on earth that exposes both.
| 122 |
ryannon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:36:09pm |
re: #109 windsagio
Seriously, this is silly.
The meme seems to be “I don’t agree with what they did, so they must be evil people.”
They could be foolish, mistaken, stupid, whatever. I’d put good money down that most of the European/American peace activists really don’t hate Jews.
But they’re supporting the people who do.
| 123 |
Racer X Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:36:15pm |
| 124 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:36:26pm |
re: #109 windsagio
Seriously, this is silly.
The meme seems to be “I don’t agree with what they did, so they must be evil people.”
They could be foolish, mistaken, stupid, whatever. I’d put good money down that most of the European/American peace activists really don’t hate Jews.
but then you can’t be taken seriously…and try the quote button as a concession to the other posters
| 125 |
brownbagj Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:36:58pm |
re: #109 windsagio
Seriously, this is silly.
The meme seems to be “I don’t agree with what they did, so they must be evil people.”
They could be foolish, mistaken, stupid, whatever. I’d put good money down that most of the European/American peace activists really don’t hate Jews.
I disagree with Lakers fans. I disagree with liberals on economics. That does not make me morally superior or make the ones I disagree with evil.
If by being a Laker fan that also meant they wanted to destroy the country of Israel, then yeah, I would consider them evil and myself on the higher moral ground.
This is not a simple disagreement on something ordinary.
| 126 |
darthstar Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:37:40pm |
re: #105 Cato the Elder
And you reach this conclusion how, pray?
Or is it just wussful thinking on your part?
Wussful thinking, I guess. I’m one of those freaks of nature who tends to believe that people are generally good by nature, until they demonstrate otherwise. Most of the people on that flotilla are participating because they believe that people in Gaza are suffering and they’re willing to put themselves out there with a lot of people hating them as you do just to call attention to injustice as they see it.
You believe there is no suffering in Gaza, or if there is, Hamas is 100% responsible. I get that. Maybe when all the bad fuckers are dead the good ones can live in peace. I just refuse to believe that all the people in Gaza are bad fuckers.
| 127 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:37:44pm |
re: #122 ryannon
There is still a distinction.
Again, there’s a HUGE difference between ‘wrong about this’ and ‘Evil’.
We don’t do anybody any good by dehumanizing/vilifying people.
| 128 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:38:15pm |
re: #117 windsagio
Good lord man!
And people accuse me of unfairly ascribing motivations to people!
Take it to the bank.
Why else would you knowingly associate with racists and bigots? Why else would you turn a blind eye?
There has to be something very powerful in it for them.
| 129 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:38:31pm |
re: #121 Cato the Elder
When Reuters does it, the left whines and makes excuses, or takes no notice.
When Fox does it, the right does the same.
LGF is one of the few places on earth that exposes both.
and to think, you’re stuck here with me
| 130 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:38:47pm |
re: #125 brownbagj
So you think that the American peace activists ‘want to destroy Israel’?
Like I said above, I’d gladly bet that very few (if any) would actually say that.
| 131 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:38:52pm |
re: #126 darthstar
Wussful thinking, I guess. I’m one of those freaks of nature who tends to believe that people are generally good by nature, until they demonstrate otherwise. Most of the people on that flotilla are participating because they believe that people in Gaza are suffering and they’re willing to put themselves out there with a lot of people hating them as you do just to call attention to injustice as they see it.
You believe there is no suffering in Gaza, or if there is, Hamas is 100% responsible. I get that. Maybe when all the bad fuckers are dead the good ones can live in peace. I just refuse to believe that all the people in Gaza are bad fuckers.
Way to put wurds in my muth.
| 132 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:39:52pm |
re: #127 windsagio
There is still a distinction.
Again, there’s a HUGE difference between ‘wrong about this’ and ‘Evil’.
We don’t do anybody any good by dehumanizing/vilifying people.
Except when it comes to wusses.
| 133 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:39:56pm |
re: #126 darthstar
Its beyond that, to believing that all the people that want to help folks in Gaza are ALSO bad fuckers.
| 134 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:40:26pm |
re: #127 windsagio
There is still a distinction.
Again, there’s a HUGE difference between ‘wrong about this’ and ‘Evil’.
We don’t do anybody any good by dehumanizing/vilifying people.
I’ll vilify terrorists all day long, even as you sit here and split hairs about the people on that boat….you are a fucking bigot, and as stupid as three people
| 135 |
Four More Tears Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:40:28pm |
| 136 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:40:36pm |
re: #109 windsagio
Seriously, this is silly.
The meme seems to be “I don’t agree with what they did, so they must be evil people.”
They could be foolish, mistaken, stupid, whatever. I’d put good money down that most of the European/American peace activists really don’t hate Jews.
I’ve stood opposite these people and their supporters at demonstrations, and they hate someone.
I’ve heard, as recently as last week, people on San Francisco City Hall’s back yard yell ‘itbach al Yahud’, to no disapproval from those around them.
They may not personally hate everyone who is a Jew, (especially if that person bolsters their arguments) but they’re deliberately putting themselves to considerable trouble at the service of people whose goal is to destroy Israel.
That’s close enough to hating Jews for me.
“I don’t hate black people. I resent all of their organizations. I assume that any black person in a position of power got there through affirmative action. I will argue that black culture is inherently inferior, and try to insist that innovations by black inventors were invented first by white people. I will quote endless statistics about black men in prison to justify my fear of black men on the street. But I’m not a racist. Black people who live just like me and agree with my political beliefs are OK.”
Doesn’t fly.
| 137 |
Racer X Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:40:37pm |
| 138 |
ryannon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:41:06pm |
re: #126 darthstar
Wussful thinking, I guess. I’m one of those freaks of nature who tends to believe that people are generally good by nature, until they demonstrate otherwise. Most of the people on that flotilla are participating because they believe that people in Gaza are suffering and they’re willing to put themselves out there with a lot of people hating them as you do just to call attention to injustice as they see it.
You believe there is no suffering in Gaza, or if there is, Hamas is 100% responsible. I get that. Maybe when all the bad fuckers are dead the good ones can live in peace. I just refuse to believe that all the people in Gaza are bad fuckers.
I thought we were talking about the people on the flotilla.
| 139 |
darthstar Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:41:45pm |
re: #131 Cato the Elder
Way to put wurds in my muth.
You’re right…you didn’t say you didn’t believe there was suffering in Gaza.
| 140 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:41:56pm |
re: #130 windsagio
So you think that the American peace activists ‘want to destroy Israel’?
Like I said above, I’d gladly bet that very few (if any) would actually say that.
They don’t have to say it. They won’t say it.
Look at the disconnect. ‘I support the people who want to kill Jews and eradicate Israel, I will fight for them and alongside them, but I’m not really one of them’.
Think about it.
| 141 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:42:06pm |
re: #133 windsagio
Its beyond that, to believing that all the people that want to help folks in Gaza are ALSO bad fuckers.
show some links where that has been the case…
| 142 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:42:18pm |
re: #130 windsagio
So you think that the American peace activists ‘want to destroy Israel’?
Like I said above, I’d gladly bet that very few (if any) would actually say that.
They don’t have to. Their fellow passengers do it for them.
I vilify them for seeing the people they were about to ship on board with and still getting on board.
| 143 |
brownbagj Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:42:38pm |
re: #130 windsagio
So you think that the American peace activists ‘want to destroy Israel’?
Like I said above, I’d gladly bet that very few (if any) would actually say that.
I would say that by associating with those that do, supporting those that do….you get the idea.
| 144 |
blueraven Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:42:55pm |
re: #11 ryannon
But since you have asked, I don’t think that media should use ‘questionable’ sources for photos or video at all. No more than ‘questionable’ journalists filing ‘questionable’ stories full of ‘questionable’ facts.
Totally agree. I do not like the un-named sources that is prevalent in most media these days.
| 145 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:42:55pm |
re: #136 SanFranciscoZionist
I’m guessing that people didn’t even know what that whatever you heard yelled (not repeating it in case its something really awful) meant :P
They may not personally hate everyone who is a Jew, (especially if that person bolsters their arguments) but they’re deliberately putting themselves to considerable trouble at the service of people whose goal is to destroy Israel.That’s close enough to hating Jews for me.
“I don’t hate black people. I resent all of their organizations. I assume that any black person in a position of power got there through affirmative action. I will argue that black culture is inherently inferior, and try to insist that innovations by black inventors were invented first by white people. I will quote endless statistics about black men in prison to justify my fear of black men on the street. But I’m not a racist. Black people who live just like me and agree with my political beliefs are OK.”
And these two things are not equivalent.
| 146 |
darthstar Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:43:38pm |
re: #142 Cato the Elder
They don’t have to. Their fellow passengers do it for them.
I vilify them for seeing the people they were about to ship on board with and still getting on board.
And now we’re getting to a point worth discussing…what is the benefit of vilifying people (aside from the fact that one doesn’t have to mourn their deaths when they happen)?
| 147 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:44:05pm |
re: #138 ryannon
I thought we were talking about the people on the flotilla.
it’s that whining, meandering, excuse making bullshit that exposes people…Hamas drones
| 148 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:44:09pm |
re: #133 windsagio
Its beyond that, to believing that all the people that want to help folks in Gaza are ALSO bad fuckers.
They are not neessarily bad.
They are emotionally unhealthy and unstable.
Have you seen the vitriol that often accompanies their adopted ideologies?
| 149 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:44:20pm |
re: #145 windsagio
I’m guessing that people didn’t even know what that whatever you heard yelled (not repeating it in case its something really awful) meant :P
And I’m certain that you’re a fool.
| 150 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:44:26pm |
re: #85 EdDantes
OT. Please forgive me but I have once again been on youtube. And, once again. I have been listening to and watching Gene Krupa. I discovered him in the 70’s when I was a teenager. If he is not best drummer who ever lived please point me to the best. My previous favorite was Ginger Baker, BTW.
I now return you to the current thread.
well, here’s some of my favorites, I don’t know about best, I just know what I like after playing drums for 20 years. :-)
Brann Dailor:
Sean Reinert:
Danny Carey:
Gavin Harrison:
Mark Zonder:
Jean Paul Gaster:
| 151 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:45:00pm |
re: #148 researchok
The vitriol I”m seeing is here and now, and that’s what I’m objecting to.
I know its the internet and all, but the emotional force here is way out of scale.
| 152 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:45:04pm |
re: #145 windsagio
I’m guessing that people didn’t even know what that whatever you heard yelled (not repeating it in case its something really awful) meant :P
And these two things are not equivalent.
You are known by the company you keep.
| 153 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:45:13pm |
re: #146 darthstar
And now we’re getting to a point worth discussing…what is the benefit of vilifying people (aside from the fact that one doesn’t have to mourn their deaths when they happen)?
I vilify evil people and their tools because I can.
| 154 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:45:31pm |
re: #148 researchok
They are not neessarily bad.
They are emotionally unhealthy and unstable.
Have you seen the vitriol that often accompanies their adopted ideologies?
all of them, huh? every single one?
Okay, psychic-psychologist-pants, let me know when you do your residency
| 155 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:45:50pm |
I have a simple rule:
If you deeply hate me for existing and want to kill me if only you get the chance, or if you support such an agenda- i think you are evil, and must be contained. I dont care if you call yourself “a peace activist”, “a freedom fighter”, or “Richard Williamson”.
| 156 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:45:53pm |
re: #150 WindUpBird
My Favorite is Karen Carpenter.
I don’t know how actually good she was, but it just blew me away when I found out she was the drummer AND the singer >>
| 157 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:46:07pm |
| 158 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:46:14pm |
re: #154 WindUpBird
all of them, huh? every single one?
Okay, psychic-psychologist-pants, let me know when you do your residency
Psychology, behavioral analyst.
No residency. When did you do yours?
| 159 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:46:25pm |
re: #146 darthstar
And now we’re getting to a point worth discussing…what is the benefit of vilifying people (aside from the fact that one doesn’t have to mourn their deaths when they happen)?
what is the purpose of LGF?
| 160 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:46:56pm |
re: #157 WindUpBird
Lets talk about music WUB, this is a dry socket :D
| 161 |
brownbagj Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:47:21pm |
re: #145 windsagio
I’m guessing that people didn’t even know what that whatever you heard yelled (not repeating it in case its something really awful) meant :P
And these two things are not equivalent.
Again, those who stand beside people yelling hatred have no excuse. Being stupid or ignorant does not excuse associating with hatred.
Can you imagine, “Yeah, I heard them say kill all the Jews, but I am not sure what they meant.”
You know, it is ok to say there is evil in the world. It does exist.
| 162 |
ryannon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:47:36pm |
re: #157 WindUpBird
Blah blah blah blah politics blah
Well, it’s sometimes what LGF is all about (politcs).
| 163 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:47:36pm |
re: #157 WindUpBird
Blah blah blah blah politics blah
No, they are not adopting a democratic political ideology.
They are adopting a racist and tyrannical ideology.
| 164 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:47:49pm |
re: #150 WindUpBird
there’s no record…please go for one if it pleases you
| 165 |
wrenchwench Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:47:56pm |
The purpose of breaking the blockade is to rearm Hamas. Not to feed starving Gazans.
The purpose of the boatloads of Turks getting involved is to get Erdogan reelected in 13 months, not to help Gazans.
The purpose of pointing this out is not to vilify anyone, but to open the eyes of people who are being used by would-be blockade runners.
| 166 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:48:37pm |
re: #151 windsagio
The vitriol I”m seeing is here and now, and that’s what I’m objecting to.
I know its the internet and all, but the emotional force here is way out of scale.
buck up pee wee
ahahaha!…what a noob
| 167 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:48:38pm |
re: #165 wrenchwench
The purpose of breaking the blockade is to rearm Hamas. Not to feed starving Gazans.
The purpose of the boatloads of Turks getting involved is to get Erdogan reelected in 13 months, not to help Gazans.
The purpose of pointing this out is not to vilify anyone, but to open the eyes of people who are being used by would-be blockade runners.
Bingo.
| 168 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:48:50pm |
re: #156 windsagio
My Favorite is Karen Carpenter.
I don’t know how actually good she was, but it just blew me away when I found out she was the drummer AND the singer >>
Brann Dailor sings lead from behind the kit on Oblivion :D
Also, Phil Collins, Don Henley!
| 169 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:49:10pm |
| 170 |
brownbagj Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:49:23pm |
re: #146 darthstar
And now we’re getting to a point worth discussing…what is the benefit of vilifying people (aside from the fact that one doesn’t have to mourn their deaths when they happen)?
Stating their intent was evil is not vilifying. It is telling the truth.
| 171 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:49:39pm |
| 172 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:49:46pm |
re: #168 WindUpBird
Its the coolest juxtaposition in music I think :D
| 173 |
darthstar Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:49:57pm |
re: #159 albusteve
what is the purpose of LGF?
I think that’s a question better directed at Charles. While I see he rails at Reuters for creative cropping (and rightly so) and at teabaggers for, well, being teabaggers, and he’s obviously pro-Israel, I’ve yet to see him collectively vilify any group. In fact, his in-thread comments are usually somewhat moderate in nature, which is what attracted me to this site in the first place.
| 174 |
Racer X Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:50:09pm |
Interesting.
‘Peace Activists” jump on a ship filled with Jihadists who want to destroy Israel. Totally cool with some people. No need to hate on those peace activists - they are just misguided.
But dammit to hell, anyone who even thinks of watching Foxnews, or attending a tea party, goddammit they are all evil racists who deserve to DIE!
Have I got that about right?
| 175 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:50:09pm |
re: #145 windsagio
I’m guessing that people didn’t even know what that whatever you heard yelled (not repeating it in case its something really awful) meant :P
And these two things are not equivalent.
That’s part of the problem. They don’t find out. It means ‘slaughter the Jews’. They stand by people yelling that, and they don’t find out. They go on thinking they’re supporting the good guys, and quoting horrible statistics and bad history, and they never, ever question. Not even after something like this flotilla incident, do they wonder what they just signed on to.
They aren’t precisely equivalent, but they are pretty damn close in some respects. This is not just a movement about getting food into Gaza. They demand that Israeli academics be rejected, and Israeli goods boycotted. There is a complete rejection of Israel’s issues within the conflict.
Anti-Israel activists are either evil, or willing dupes of the evil. I don’t say that lightly, but I do say it. And while I’m willing to believe they care about the people of Gaza, it’s in a remarkably self-serving way that pretty much shuts out the reality faced by people living in such a situation.
| 176 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:50:21pm |
re: #99 Dark_Falcon
They are shilling for for an Islamist ‘charity’ that sent jihadis out to murder Jews. To support such people in the name of peace is morally bankrupt.
Or the product of terrible logic, gross naivite, or a ton of ignorance, or something of that sort. It’s not necessarily that they actually compared the facts in the situation and decided to side with the Hamas. Many of them are operating under false assumptions, bad ideas, etc. etc.
A lot of anarchists, for example, are not bad people, even though a lot of the ideas they espouse would, in the real world, lead to awful, awful shit.
| 177 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:50:44pm |
re: #165 wrenchwench
The purpose of breaking the blockade is to rearm Hamas. Not to feed starving Gazans.
The purpose of the boatloads of Turks getting involved is to get Erdogan reelected in 13 months, not to help Gazans.
The purpose of pointing this out is not to vilify anyone, but to open the eyes of people who are being used by would-be blockade runners.
well said…I don’t see where it has to be nuanced to death
| 178 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:50:53pm |
re: #175 SanFranciscoZionist
Sorry SFZ, usually I like discussing this stuff with you, but I’m opting out for now. Its not worth the frustration >
| 179 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:50:59pm |
My only quibble with the poll is that the media should credit sources in all cases, in every photograph and article, no matter how mundane. The way the poll is worded wouldn’t work for me operationally, because Reuters’ own interpretation of what constitutes a questionable source or controversial story would inevitably come into play. Instead take away all discretion and credit everything, always.
| 180 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:51:21pm |
WUB: If Gorillaz does a US tour and gets anywhere near us, will you come with?
| 181 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:51:44pm |
| 182 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:51:49pm |
re: #180 windsagio
WUB: If Gorillaz does a US tour and gets anywhere near us, will you come with?
uh YES?!?!?!
| 183 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:52:06pm |
re: #77 darthstar
What makes them “morally bankrupt degenerates”? Standing up for what they believe in? Granted, you disagree with their position on this issue, but does a difference of opinion on one issue equal moral superiority? When we learn to accept that others may disagree with us we stop being like them.
Just saying…and for the record, I don’t support terrorism, Hamas, or the destruction of Israel myself…nor do I think most of the “degenerates” on the flotilla support the destruction of Israel.
Morally bankrupt degenerates is a perfect label for these anti-Semitic terrorist sympathisers.
Just saying.
| 184 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:52:10pm |
The best drummer that ever lived was probably a man somewhere in Africa who lived in an obscure village hundreds of years ago. You’ll never hear him, I’ll never hear him, but he…could…play.
(Or, did you mean the best drummer ever recorded?)
| 185 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:52:31pm |
re: #151 windsagio
The vitriol I”m seeing is here and now, and that’s what I’m objecting to.
I know its the internet and all, but the emotional force here is way out of scale.
It just cracks me up that you got called a “jihadist”. lol crazypants
| 186 |
darthstar Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:52:41pm |
re: #165 wrenchwench
The purpose of breaking the blockade is to rearm Hamas. Not to feed starving Gazans.
The purpose of the boatloads of Turks getting involved is to get Erdogan reelected in 13 months, not to help Gazans.
The purpose of pointing this out is not to vilify anyone, but to open the eyes of people who are being used by would-be blockade runners.
But wasn’t there an internal Israeli government document leaked recently that called into question the purpose of the blockade itself? This conflict has been going on for over 40 years. It’s not going to end in the next five. Politically speaking, both sides need the conflict to justify their actions.
| 187 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:52:58pm |
re: #175 SanFranciscoZionist
Well-said.
There is something wrong in their heads, somewhere they’ve committed themselves to a line of thinking and they stopped accepting new input on it.
I shouldn’t have said they aren’t bad people— that’s too convenient a phrase. They kind of are bad people. But they didn’t start out wanting to be bad people. They walked down a path and then something— I don’t know what— has kept them on that path despite all evidence to the contrary.
It’s not unique to this situation, but it does get especially ugly here, because it follows on the heels of generations of such bullshit aimed at the Jews.
| 188 |
Racer X Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:53:08pm |
| 189 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:53:20pm |
re: #175 SanFranciscoZionist
That’s part of the problem. They don’t find out. It means ‘slaughter the Jews’. They stand by people yelling that, and they don’t find out. They go on thinking they’re supporting the good guys, and quoting horrible statistics and bad history, and they never, ever question. Not even after something like this flotilla incident, do they wonder what they just signed on to.
They aren’t precisely equivalent, but they are pretty damn close in some respects. This is not just a movement about getting food into Gaza. They demand that Israeli academics be rejected, and Israeli goods boycotted. There is a complete rejection of Israel’s issues within the conflict.
Anti-Israel activists are either evil, or willing dupes of the evil. I don’t say that lightly, but I do say it. And while I’m willing to believe they care about the people of Gaza, it’s in a remarkably self-serving way that pretty much shuts out the reality faced by people living in such a situation.
Yes, there are absolutes.
Is is never acceptable to beat a child or spouse- ever.
It is never acceptable to adopt an ideology that is prediacted on hate, bigotry or racism.
Lots of bigots and tyrants loved dogs and puppies.
So what?
| 190 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:53:58pm |
| 191 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:54:11pm |
re: #173 darthstar
I think that’s a question better directed at Charles. While I see he rails at Reuters for creative cropping (and rightly so) and at teabaggers for, well, being teabaggers, and he’s obviously pro-Israel, I’ve yet to see him collectively vilify any group. In fact, his in-thread comments are usually somewhat moderate in nature, which is what attracted me to this site in the first place.
I think Charles has already vilified the assholes…the question is, why don’t you?
| 192 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:54:37pm |
re: #185 WindUpBird
It just cracks me up that you got called a “jihadist”. lol crazypants
I missed that somehow >> Oh well!
| 193 |
brownbagj Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:54:41pm |
re: #176 Obdicut
Or the product of terrible logic, gross naivite, or a ton of ignorance, or something of that sort. It’s not necessarily that they actually compared the facts in the situation and decided to side with the Hamas. Many of them are operating under false assumptions, bad ideas, etc. etc.
A lot of anarchists, for example, are not bad people, even though a lot of the ideas they espouse would, in the real world, lead to awful, awful shit.
Then it is up to them to educate themselves. Again, willful ignorance is no excuse.
| 194 |
Racer X Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:54:51pm |
re: #185 WindUpBird
It just cracks me up that you got called a “jihadist”. lol crazypants
Windsy was on the peace boat?
| 195 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:54:55pm |
re: #190 Bagua
Only a sick puppy would lol at the holocaust.
He’s loling at the out-of-line-concern troll, don’t be silly
| 196 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:54:57pm |
I assume all sources are biased, some innocently and others not.
“Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect.”—Santayana
| 197 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:55:00pm |
re: #184 EmmmieG
The best drummer that ever lived was probably a man somewhere in Africa who lived in an obscure village hundreds of years ago. You’ll never hear him, I’ll never hear him, but he…could…play.
(Or, did you mean the best drummer ever recorded?)
GINGER BAKER!
| 198 |
Four More Tears Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:55:01pm |
re: #190 Bagua
Only a sick puppy would lol at the holocaust.
He was loling someone bringing it up. Be fair.
| 199 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:55:27pm |
re: #176 Obdicut
Or the product of terrible logic, gross naivite, or a ton of ignorance, or something of that sort. It’s not necessarily that they actually compared the facts in the situation and decided to side with the Hamas. Many of them are operating under false assumptions, bad ideas, etc. etc.
A lot of anarchists, for example, are not bad people, even though a lot of the ideas they espouse would, in the real world, lead to awful, awful shit.
It’s just that when you end up running a military blockade under the influence of false assumptions and bad ideas, I tend to think you maybe should have got this all worked out before the boat left harbor.
Also, frankly, pisses me off…not the guys on the Mavi Marmara so much, they went prepared for war and got it…but these other people, the actual pacifists—there’s a reason they don’t do this shit elsewhere in the world. Israel is like Disneyland for these guys, you call them Nazis and challenge their warships and they still have to tow you into dock and release you back to the West.
| 200 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:55:48pm |
“Vilify” comes from Latin vilis, meaning “cheap, base”.
I vilify those who refuse to vilify evil people and their willing tools. The evil ones are base, and the tools are cheap.
They get their politics on the cheap, because they’ve cheapened their minds to the point of thinking that the word “peace” covers up for stupidity.
They get their base friends with the base coinage of misguided sympathy for causes they can’t be bothered to investigate for themselves.
I hold them cheap, and find them base.
Vile bastards.
| 201 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:55:54pm |
re: #183 Bagua
The fact is a lot of them (the Western ones) may not be at all anti-Semitic in their hearts, may be able to honestly say that they don’t hate any individual Jews that they know, and yet participate in actions that are anti-Semitic. That is part of the huge problem that Israel faces; their enemies are not just those that hate the Jews, but also those that hate Israel— due to the propaganda and their total lack of engagement with the truth about the situation.
It’s not as easy as antisemitism is to explain, especially because so many young, liberal Jews in the US are becoming less and less Zionist. That is why it’s so important for Israel— and those who are her friends— to get the real story out there.
| 202 |
darthstar Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:55:56pm |
re: #183 Bagua
Morally bankrupt degenerates is a perfect label for these anti-Semitic terrorist sympathisers.
Just saying.
There were something like 63 Jewish Israelis on that flotilla. Were they anti-semitic too? This isn’t about ending Judaism, it’s about politics. Granted, there are extremists who believe in a holy war, but I don’t think everyone involved in the flotilla belongs in that camp…but that’s just me.
| 203 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:56:12pm |
re: #178 windsagio
Sorry SFZ, usually I like discussing this stuff with you, but I’m opting out for now. Its not worth the frustration >
Fair enough. Just be aware that my opinions in this matter have been formed by being screamed at actual examples of the people in question.
| 204 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:56:17pm |
re: #186 darthstar
But wasn’t there an internal Israeli government document leaked recently that called into question the purpose of the blockade itself? This conflict has been going on for over 40 years. It’s not going to end in the next five. Politically speaking, both sides need the conflict to justify their actions.
conflict justifies actions…brilliant!
| 205 |
darthstar Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:56:45pm |
| 206 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:57:04pm |
re: #194 Racer X
Windsy was on the peace boat?
According to Mandy he’s WITH TEH TERRARWISTS!!1111!1!!1!!111
Which is exactly what he means by his comments about the emotional scale being all out of wack. It goes from ‘I disagree with some policy” to “WORSER THAN HITLAR!!!” in nothing flat.
| 207 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:57:10pm |
re: #193 brownbagj
Then it is up to them to educate themselves. Again, willful ignorance is no excuse.
Sure. I’m happy to blame them until the sun goes down, but that won’t fix the problem. I’m not excusing them at all.
| 208 |
brownbagj Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:57:29pm |
re: #195 WindUpBird
He’s loling at the out-of-line-concern troll, don’t be silly
I am out of line by thinking that Hamas wants to eradicate the Jews?
?!?
| 209 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:57:47pm |
re: #165 wrenchwench
The purpose of breaking the blockade is to rearm Hamas. Not to feed starving Gazans.
The purpose of the boatloads of Turks getting involved is to get Erdogan reelected in 13 months, not to help Gazans.
The purpose of pointing this out is not to vilify anyone, but to open the eyes of people who are being used by would-be blockade runners.
Quoted for truth.
| 210 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:57:50pm |
re: #203 SanFranciscoZionist
And your opinions on the matter are substantially more reasonable and less hateful than the other people on here… Most of whom (afaik) don’t have your experience of being shouted at.
| 211 |
Racer X Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:57:56pm |
re: #199 SanFranciscoZionist
Also, frankly, pisses me off…not the guys on the Mavi Marmara so much, they went prepared for war and got it…but these other people, the actual pacifists—there’s a reason they don’t do this shit elsewhere in the world. Israel is like Disneyland for these guys, you call them Nazis and challenge their warships and they still have to tow you into dock and release you back to the West.
Most any other country in the world would have far more blood in the water. Israel demonstrates tremendous restraint. It is a testament to their value of human life.
| 212 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:57:59pm |
re: #134 albusteve
I’ll vilify terrorists all day long, even as you sit here and split hairs about the people on that boat…you are a fucking bigot, and as stupid as three people
Certainly posts as much as three people.
| 213 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:58:25pm |
| 214 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:58:28pm |
re: #208 brownbagj
I am out of line by thinking that Hamas wants to eradicate the Jews?
?!?
By beating the holocaust drum? Yes. Because Hamas IS NOT GERMANY
GOD I wish people were smarter
| 215 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:58:59pm |
re: #200 Cato the Elder
“Vilify” comes from Latin vilis, meaning “cheap, base”.
I vilify those who refuse to vilify evil people and their willing tools. The evil ones are base, and the tools are cheap.
They get their politics on the cheap, because they’ve cheapened their minds to the point of thinking that the word “peace” covers up for stupidity.
They get their base friends with the base coinage of misguided sympathy for causes they can’t be bothered to investigate for themselves.
I hold them cheap, and find them base.
Vile bastards.
AKA The International Solidarity Movement
| 216 |
Racer X Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:59:15pm |
re: #206 WindUpBird
I missed that. Did someone call him a jihadist on this thread?
| 217 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:59:20pm |
re: #199 SanFranciscoZionist
It’s just that when you end up running a military blockade under the influence of false assumptions and bad ideas, I tend to think you maybe should have got this all worked out before the boat left harbor.
I think they should have too. But they didn’t.
Also, frankly, pisses me off…not the guys on the Mavi Marmara so much, they went prepared for war and got it…but these other people, the actual pacifists—there’s a reason they don’t do this shit elsewhere in the world. Israel is like Disneyland for these guys, you call them Nazis and challenge their warships and they still have to tow you into dock and release you back to the West.
Yep. Israel has to— and does— show greater restraint than any other nation— and still gets treated as though it shows less restraint.
As I’ve said before, it’s also a very racist policy on the part of those ‘pacificsts’; they’re subtly treating Arabs as though they can’t possibly be expected to behave any better than they do.
| 218 |
OldnGrumpy Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:59:22pm |
We should know the source of anything we put into our brain but unfortunately that’s not possible.
Now here’s something for your brain….ALL renewable energy sources use petrochemicals,in fact it would be impossible to create(with current technology)an alternative energy source without using petrolium derived products.
Wow,this off topic stuff is contagious.
| 219 |
wrenchwench Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:59:23pm |
re: #186 darthstar
But wasn’t there an internal Israeli government document leaked recently that called into question the purpose of the blockade itself? This conflict has been going on for over 40 years. It’s not going to end in the next five. Politically speaking, both sides need the conflict to justify their actions.
I don’t know what document you are talking about. I would guess that the effectiveness of the blockade would be called into question more than the purpose. The vigorous debate of these issues within Israel says to me that they are struggling to do the right and effective thing. They may not always accomplish that, but I don’t question their motives.
Israel does not “need the conflict” for any reason. Hamas needs it for political reasons. They have to beat Fatah before they can try to beat Israel.
| 220 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:59:32pm |
re: #185 WindUpBird
It just cracks me up that you got called a “jihadist”. lol crazypants
He’s not a jihadist, he’s just being morally obtuse.
| 221 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:59:36pm |
re: #216 Racer X
I missed that. Did someone call him a jihadist on this thread?
In a previous thread.
I remember things!
| 222 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:59:41pm |
re: #202 darthstar
There were something like 63 Jewish Israelis on that flotilla. Were they anti-semitic too? This isn’t about ending Judaism, it’s about politics. Granted, there are extremists who believe in a holy war, but I don’t think everyone involved in the flotilla belongs in that camp…but that’s just me.
There were Jews on the flotilla- So what?
There were Jews who wrote Hitler to demand the right to serve the Reich, believing the anti semitism was just a political ploy.
There were Jews who served in the German Navy, protected by Karl Doenitz who refused to believe there really was a Holocaust.
| 223 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:59:48pm |
| 224 |
brownbagj Fri, Jun 11, 2010 5:59:57pm |
re: #210 windsagio
And your opinions on the matter are substantially more reasonable and less hateful than the other people on here… Most of whom (afaik) don’t have your experience of being shouted at.
I hope you don’t mean me as I have many MANY dear friends in Israel. Two of who lost sons in the last skirmish.
| 225 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:00:06pm |
Aaaand this is why I don’t discuss Israel. Cheers, guys, enjoy
| 226 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:00:14pm |
re: #145 windsagio
I’m guessing that people didn’t even know what that whatever you heard yelled (not repeating it in case its something really awful) meant :P
And these two things are not equivalent.
Right, always guessing and uninformed, yet a constant flurry of posts, never on the side of Israel.
| 227 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:00:43pm |
re: #217 Obdicut
Yep. Israel has to— and does— show greater restraint than any other nation— and still gets treated as though it shows less restraint.
As I’ve said before, it’s also a very racist policy on the part of those ‘pacificsts’; they’re subtly treating Arabs as though they can’t possibly be expected to behave any better than they do.
Well said.
In fact, the Israeli occupation since 1967 has been the most benign military occupation in history.
| 228 |
brownbagj Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:01:04pm |
re: #214 WindUpBird
By beating the holocaust drum? Yes. Because Hamas IS NOT GERMANY
GOD I wish people were smarter
But their goals are the same. Correct? God I wish people were smarter.
| 229 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:01:10pm |
re: #213 windsagio
And I’m totally failing at opting out.
SFZ is too easy to talk to :(
Well, I’ll help, I need to go to the store.
BBIAB
| 230 |
Racer X Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:01:17pm |
re: #221 WindUpBird
In a previous thread.
I remember things!
Your forgetter is getting better,
but your rememberer is getting worse.
| 231 |
wrenchwench Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:01:28pm |
re: #225 WindUpBird
Aaaand this is why I don’t discuss Israel. Cheers, guys, enjoy
Can you be specific about what you mean by “this”?
/not just trying to draw you back in
| 232 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:01:31pm |
re: #210 windsagio
And your opinions on the matter are substantially more reasonable and less hateful than the other people on here… Most of whom (afaik) don’t have your experience of being shouted at.
it’s because she’s an adult
| 233 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:01:32pm |
re: #146 darthstar
And now we’re getting to a point worth discussing…what is the benefit of vilifying people (aside from the fact that one doesn’t have to mourn their deaths when they happen)?
We vilify neo-Nazis, we vilify homophobes, we vilify racists and bigots, yet you protest when we vilify anti-Semites.
| 234 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:01:42pm |
Whale Wars is on. It’s worth a view, if only for insight as to how difficult even pseudo-fighting between ships really is.
| 235 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:01:56pm |
re: #216 Racer X
I missed that. Did someone call him a jihadist on this thread?
I call him an objective supporter of people who objectively support jihad.
| 236 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:02:12pm |
re: #214 WindUpBird
By beating the holocaust drum? Yes. Because Hamas IS NOT GERMANY
GOD I wish people were smarter
I’m sorry, Windy, but I’m not sure what you mean here. Hamas really would like to eradicate the Jews. At least from the Middle East. In that regard, they seem very similar to Nazi Germany to me.
Can you explain what you meant?
| 237 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:03:13pm |
re: #151 windsagio
The vitriol I”m seeing is here and now, and that’s what I’m objecting to.
I know its the internet and all, but the emotional force here is way out of scale.
Vitriol? We are talking about genocidal terrorists and their supporters. Idiot.
| 239 |
Racer X Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:03:49pm |
re: #236 Obdicut
I’m sorry, Windy, but I’m not sure what you mean here. Hamas really would like to eradicate the Jews. At least from the Middle East. In that regard, they seem very similar to Nazi Germany to me.
Can you explain what you meant?
They are worse than Nazi Germany. They are very open about their desire to eradicate the Jews. They simply lack the means. For now.
| 240 |
darthstar Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:04:09pm |
re: #233 Bagua
We vilify neo-Nazis, we vilify homophobes, we vilify racists and bigots, yet you protest when we vilify anti-Semites.
No, I protest when people call anyone they they disagree with regarding Israeli/Palestinian relations anti-semite.
| 241 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:04:15pm |
re: #43 Gus 802
I know Ansel Adams would definitely be against any cropping.
Actually, he cropped, dodged & burned like no one else. He manipulated every negative and print that he made - and was damn good at it too. His famous Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico, 1941, for example, is a monster of a negative to print and he would use anything thing necessary to get it to look the way he wanted it to look. See his wonderful book “Examples: The Making of 40 Photographs” (1983) for more information on this.
He would have gone nuts for a modern drum scanner, a high end Mac & Photoshop. And he would have made good use of them, too :)
Ansel Adams remains one of my favorite photographers. If you ever get a chance to see something actually wet printed by him, grab it. There is still magic in the silver salts.
William
| 242 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:04:21pm |
re: #236 Obdicut
I’m sorry, Windy, but I’m not sure what you mean here. Hamas really would like to eradicate the Jews. At least from the Middle East. In that regard, they seem very similar to Nazi Germany to me.
Can you explain what you meant?
He does not know what he means. He merely posts.
| 243 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:04:54pm |
re: #214 WindUpBird
By beating the holocaust drum? Yes. Because Hamas IS NOT GERMANY
GOD I wish people were smarter
Hamas is not Germany- YET.
Favorite Hamas kindergarten ditty- ‘We’ll finish what Hitler started!’ and the classic marching tune, “HAMAS! HAMAS! JEWS TO THE GAS!”
No need to wait and see what Hamas has in mind, you know?
| 244 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:04:57pm |
On April 30, 2003, a suicide terrorist blew himself up at the entrance to Mike’s Place, a pub/cafe on the Tel Aviv promenade. Three civilians were murdered, and over 50 were wounded in the attack.
The attack was perpetrated by Asif Muhammad Hanif, 22, a British citizen.
SNIP
The two terrorists were careful to establish their presence in Judea and Samaria by forging links with foreign left wing activists and members of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM).
ISM members take an active part in illegal and violent actions against IDF soldiers. At times, their activity in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip is under the auspices of Palestinian terrorist organizations.
Foreign left wing activists, especially ISM members, who seek entry into Israel, often do so under false pretenses, via cover stories - entry for matrimonial, tourist, religious and other purposes - which they coordinate prior to arriving in Israel.
SNIP
| 246 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:05:40pm |
re: #214 WindUpBird
By beating the holocaust drum? Yes. Because Hamas IS NOT GERMANY
GOD I wish people were smarter
You really are wrong about that. I’m not sure what more has to be proven about Hamas to make you believe that it is most exactly like Nazi Germany where the Jews are concerned.
As for the people, if they don’t follow Hamas, they are forced to or live in fear of them.
| 247 |
brownbagj Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:05:54pm |
re: #242 Cato the Elder
He does not know what he means. He merely posts.
I have to say, I have no idea what the “They are not Germany” statement meant. Sure they do not have the might of Germany per se, but their intentions are the same.
I thought this was common knowledge. If not, oh boy, we have lots more work to do.
| 248 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:06:08pm |
ISM also lobbies for the release of Marwan Barghouti — an Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades leader who was captured by Israel in April 2002 and was charged with terrorism and the murders of 26 people. Ultimately he was convicted of five counts of murder, each carrying a sentence of life in prison.
| 249 |
windsagio Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:06:25pm |
re: #245 windsagio
Dammit. I should close the window and quit even looking if I don’t wanna respond.
| 250 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:06:38pm |
re: #245 windsagio
Would you call that a megagodwin?
He’s right. The Nazis tried to hide their agenda. Hamas, Jihad, PFLP, Hizbollah, et al, cannot be bothered.
| 251 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:06:38pm |
re: #240 darthstar
No, I protest when people call anyone they they disagree with regarding Israeli/Palestinian relations anti-semite.
depends on the disagreement eh?…you make excuses for Hamas, I figure you support them, without any objective ‘nuance’ toward Israel…if you support Hamas, you are dirt to me
| 252 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:07:23pm |
re: #239 Racer X
They are worse than Nazi Germany. They are very open about their desire to eradicate the Jews. They simply lack the means. For now.
No, they are not worse than Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany has set a very fucking high bar. The very fact that Nazi Germany could be so well-organized, so efficient, and so, well, brilliant in achieving many things makes their insanity and evil more terrifying, horrible, and monumental than Hamas.
| 253 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:07:33pm |
re: #236 Obdicut
I’m sorry, Windy, but I’m not sure what you mean here. Hamas really would like to eradicate the Jews. At least from the Middle East. In that regard, they seem very similar to Nazi Germany to me.
Can you explain what you meant?
I don’t believe that Hamas has the power to become as powerful as Nazi Germany was. That’s pretty much what I meant.
And claiming that Hamas can become as powerful as Nazi Germany, as organized as Nazi germany, and to create the industrial machinery for war as Naz Germany did, and do to Israel what was done to Jews in Nazi Germany, as a rhetorical bludgeon just seems silly to me.
| 254 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:07:54pm |
re: #247 brownbagj
I have to say, I have no idea what the “They are not Germany” statement meant. Sure they do not have the might of Germany per se, but their intentions are the same.
I thought this was common knowledge. If not, oh boy, we have lots more work to do.
Windbagio is impervious to arguments, facts, history, vilification, and downdings.
Much as a dense woolen fabric is impervious to rain.
| 256 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:08:33pm |
re: #250 researchok
He’s right. The Nazis tried to hide their agenda. Hamas, Jihad, PFLP, Hizbollah, et al, cannot be bothered.
Indeed they are proud of their desire to murder Jews.
| 257 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:08:52pm |
re: #252 Obdicut
No, they are not worse than Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany has set a very fucking high bar. The very fact that Nazi Germany could be so well-organized, so efficient, and so, well, brilliant in achieving many things makes their insanity and evil more terrifying, horrible, and monumental than Hamas.
This is pretty much exactly what I was saying :D
| 258 |
darthstar Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:08:52pm |
re: #251 albusteve
depends on the disagreement eh?…you make excuses for Hamas, I figure you support them, without any objective ‘nuance’ toward Israel…if you support Hamas, you are dirt to me
I’ve stated unequivocally that I do not support Hamas many times. And again just now.
| 259 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:09:03pm |
re: #253 WindUpBird
I don’t believe that Hamas has the power to become as powerful as Nazi Germany was. That’s pretty much what I meant.
I agree with that.
But it doesn’t seem very relevant. They don’t need to become that powerful. Israel is also not the combined might of the Soviet Union, the United States, Britain, Canada, and Poland.
So I don’t see how that’s relevant.
| 260 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:09:12pm |
The Nazis and Islam were very tightly linked from at least the time the Nazi regime was coming into power. That is historical fact.
| 261 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:09:49pm |
re: #245 windsagio
No, I’d call your refusal to understand what we are saying a MEGA FAIL.
| 262 |
Racer X Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:09:50pm |
re: #252 Obdicut
No, they are not worse than Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany has set a very fucking high bar. The very fact that Nazi Germany could be so well-organized, so efficient, and so, well, brilliant in achieving many things makes their insanity and evil more terrifying, horrible, and monumental than Hamas.
I guess I’m confusing effort with results.
| 263 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:09:54pm |
re: #260 marjoriemoon
The Nazis and Islam were very tightly linked from at least the time the Nazi regime was coming into power. That is historical fact.
There was no real influence on the Nazis from Islam.
It depends what you mean by ‘tightly-linked’, I guess.
| 264 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:09:57pm |
re: #198 JasonA
He was loling someone bringing it up. Be fair.
I’m perfectly fair. It has been well documented on this site that the Iranians and their proxies Hamas and Hezbollah advocate another holocaust, this time with radiation.
Windsagio has the nerve to laugh at this while spinning continuously on behalf of these evil groups? It may be funny to him but not to me.
| 265 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:10:21pm |
re: #258 darthstar
I’ve stated unequivocally that I do not support Hamas many times. And again just now.
And yet the VERY CONCERNED REGULARS ARE VERY VERY CONCERNED DUHH HRR HRR HRRR
| 266 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:10:51pm |
re: #264 Bagua
I’m perfectly fair. It has been well documented on this site that the Iranians and their proxies Hamas and Hezbollah advocate another holocaust, this time with radiation.
Windsagio has the nerve to laugh at this while spinning continuously on behalf of these evil groups? It may be funny to him but not to me.
Man, you are just not convincing with this cheese act
| 267 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:11:17pm |
re: #260 marjoriemoon
The Nazis and Islam were very tightly linked from at least the time the Nazi regime was coming into power. That is historical fact.
Indeed, the Islamist Grand Mufti of Jerusalem helped the Nazis recruit Balkan Muslims for the Waffen SS.
| 268 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:11:20pm |
| 269 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:11:21pm |
re: #253 WindUpBird
I don’t believe that Hamas has the power to become as powerful as Nazi Germany was. That’s pretty much what I meant.
And claiming that Hamas can become as powerful as Nazi Germany, as organized as Nazi germany, and to create the industrial machinery for war as Naz Germany did, and do to Israel what was done to Jews in Nazi Germany, as a rhetorical bludgeon just seems silly to me.
It is their intent. They don’t care if it happens tomorrow, 10 years or 10 generations. They have the children to sacrifice.
Win the hearts and minds of the international community. Make them feel compassion for those who know no compassion. It speeds up the process.
| 272 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:12:08pm |
re: #263 Obdicut
There was no real influence on the Nazis from Islam.
It depends what you mean by ‘tightly-linked’, I guess.
Hitler and the Grand Mufti discussed military strategies and their shared hatred of the Jewish people.
| 273 |
wrenchwench Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:12:22pm |
Later, lizards.
Since it’s a poll thread, allow me to exit with this:
Luap Nor!!!1!!
| 274 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:12:37pm |
re: #254 Cato the Elder
Windbagio is impervious to arguments, facts, history, vilification, and downdings.
Much as a dense woolen fabric is impervious to rain.
and doesn’t have the guts to put his convictions out there…it’s all veiled in some sugar coated, pimple faced package that he assumes you are too stupid to see through the half wit mask…I’d be insulted if he was half bright
| 275 |
avanti Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:12:44pm |
Hot Air is now covering the Kristal UNgate Israel investigation scandal with much outrage. Once they found out is was BS, they decided it was a trial balloon, surprise.
| 276 |
Four More Tears Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:13:18pm |
re: #264 Bagua
I’m perfectly fair. It has been well documented on this site that the Iranians and their proxies Hamas and Hezbollah advocate another holocaust, this time with radiation.
Windsagio has the nerve to laugh at this while spinning continuously on behalf of these evil groups? It may be funny to him but not to me.
Oh I’m not defending him. Quite the contrary, he’s pissing me the fuck off too. I just thought his comment wasn’t laughing at the holocaust, which is what I thought you were coming down on him for.
| 277 |
brownbagj Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:13:25pm |
re: #253 WindUpBird
I don’t believe that Hamas has the power to become as powerful as Nazi Germany was. That’s pretty much what I meant.
And claiming that Hamas can become as powerful as Nazi Germany, as organized as Nazi germany, and to create the industrial machinery for war as Naz Germany did, and do to Israel what was done to Jews in Nazi Germany, as a rhetorical bludgeon just seems silly to me.
So, as long as we can keep them from killing all the Jews we shouldn’t worry with them. Cool.
Not.
Their intentions matter. Their methods matter. And those who support them, ignorant or not, matter.
| 278 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:13:25pm |
re: #272 marjoriemoon
Hitler and the Grand Mufti discussed military strategies and their shared hatred of the Jewish people.
Yes. But Hitler’s antisemetism was entirely rooted in European antisemitism. It made for nice conversation between him and the Grand Mufti, but the Nazis came up with their pathetic Jew-hate all on their own, or rather, following in the tradition of the millennia of Jew-hate in Europe.
| 279 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:14:06pm |
Here’s what you will find at the ISM site, Palestinian Solidarity Movement:
Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ site:palsolidarity.org
That says it all.
Terrorist sympathizers and supporters.
| 280 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:14:25pm |
re: #263 Obdicut
There was no real influence on the Nazis from Islam.
It depends what you mean by ‘tightly-linked’, I guess.
Politically linked.
The Mufti also raised troops in Bosnia for Germany and offered a staging area for Rommel if he made it to Palestine in exchange for the right to kill Jews wantonly.
| 281 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:14:41pm |
re: #275 avanti
Hot Air is now covering the Kristal UNgate Israel investigation scandal with much outrage. Once they found out is was BS, they decided it was a trial balloon, surprise.
It can never be admitted that Obama is not proceeding from malicious intent. Anyone making such an admission will be deemed a RINO and shunned accordingly.
| 282 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:14:59pm |
re: #201 Obdicut
The fact is a lot of them (the Western ones) may not be at all anti-Semitic in their hearts, may be able to honestly say that they don’t hate any individual Jews that they know, and yet participate in actions that are anti-Semitic. That is part of the huge problem that Israel faces; their enemies are not just those that hate the Jews, but also those that hate Israel— due to the propaganda and their total lack of engagement with the truth about the situation.
It’s not as easy as antisemitism is to explain, especially because so many young, liberal Jews in the US are becoming less and less Zionist. That is why it’s so important for Israel— and those who are her friends— to get the real story out there.
Some are not anti-Semites, some are deluded idiots. But looking at the video of the anti-Israel demonstration in Hamburg Germany last week and hearing shouts of “Raus, raus” directed at Jews reduces my sympathies for these people.
| 283 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:16:25pm |
re: #276 JasonA
Oh I’m not defending him. Quite the contrary, he’s pissing me the fuck off too. I just thought his comment wasn’t laughing at the holocaust, which is what I thought you were coming down on him for.
No, he was lolling at the word “holocaust” because he doesn’t think the jihadists who constantly preach that they want another one would actually do it if they had the chance. Because people are basically good at heart.
He’s a turdbird.
| 284 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:17:13pm |
re: #202 darthstar
There were something like 63 Jewish Israelis on that flotilla. Were they anti-semitic too? This isn’t about ending Judaism, it’s about politics. Granted, there are extremists who believe in a holy war, but I don’t think everyone involved in the flotilla belongs in that camp…but that’s just me.
Yes, there are many self-hating Jews, just as there are Americans who hate America. Certainly there are also deluded fools, but when they are trying to supply the genocidal Hama terrorists, I don’t give them the benefit of the doubt.
| 285 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:17:26pm |
To be clear- whatever legitimate issues the Palestinians might have with the Israelis will always be trumped by the stated Palestinian genocidal intent.
Terror and genocide are not legitimate forms of political expression in the civilized world.
| 286 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:17:32pm |
re: #282 Bagua
Some are not anti-Semites, some are deluded idiots. But looking at the video of the anti-Israel demonstration in Hamburg Germany last week and hearing shouts of “Raus, raus” directed at Jews reduces my sympathies for these people.
Agreed. When “raus, raus” is shout at Jews, it means that the hate Hitler fostered is on the march again. Whether those shouting will admit it or not, they walk in the goose steps of the SS.
| 287 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:17:37pm |
re: #278 Obdicut
Yes. But Hitler’s antisemetism was entirely rooted in European antisemitism. It made for nice conversation between him and the Grand Mufti, but the Nazis came up with their pathetic Jew-hate all on their own, or rather, following in the tradition of the millennia of Jew-hate in Europe.
I would be more concerned what the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem took away from Hitler and his little murder machine than the other way around. Those lessons are still being played out today at least in ideology.
If we’re going to say Never Again and mean it, we have to recognize where it starts and stop it before people suffer. We do that, IMO, by not supporting rouge regimes like Cuba, Iran or Gaza. We put the crunch on them economically until they disintegrate from within.
| 288 |
OldnGrumpy Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:17:38pm |
#253 WindUpBird
If you mean that Hamas could never build up an industrial,economic or technological base as powerful as Nazi Germany,i have to agree.
For one they are addicted to international welfare and can’t uild anything of their own but if someone were to give them the gas chambers and crematoria,I have no doubt they would use them on the Jewish people.
| 289 |
Four More Tears Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:17:58pm |
re: #283 Cato the Elder
No, he was lolling at the word “holocaust” because he doesn’t think the jihadists who constantly preach that they want another one would actually do it if they had the chance. Because people are basically good at heart.
He’s a turdbird.
It wasn’t Birdie.
| 290 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:18:30pm |
re: #278 Obdicut
Yes. But Hitler’s antisemetism was entirely rooted in European antisemitism. It made for nice conversation between him and the Grand Mufti, but the Nazis came up with their pathetic Jew-hate all on their own, or rather, following in the tradition of the millennia of Jew-hate in Europe.
I don’t care where you got your Jew-hate. From the Bible or from the Koran. It’s all the same God-damned thing.
| 291 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:19:11pm |
re: #210 windsagio
And your opinions on the matter are substantially more reasonable and less hateful than the other people on here… Most of whom (afaik) don’t have your experience of being shouted at.
You are the hater.
| 292 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:19:31pm |
re: #202 darthstar
There were something like 63 Jewish Israelis on that flotilla. Were they anti-semitic too? This isn’t about ending Judaism, it’s about politics. Granted, there are extremists who believe in a holy war, but I don’t think everyone involved in the flotilla belongs in that camp…but that’s just me.
Were did you get this stat from??!?! The only Israelis on the marmara were israeli-muslim-arabs.
| 293 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:19:34pm |
re: #253 WindUpBird
I don’t believe that Hamas has the power to become as powerful as Nazi Germany was. That’s pretty much what I meant.
And claiming that Hamas can become as powerful as Nazi Germany, as organized as Nazi germany, and to create the industrial machinery for war as Naz Germany did, and do to Israel what was done to Jews in Nazi Germany, as a rhetorical bludgeon just seems silly to me.
You don’t need to power to commit genocide.
You need means and opportunity.
| 294 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:20:10pm |
Another “Western” Leftist group.
In Free Gaza’s reading of history:
* Israel’s creation in 1948 was a “catastrophe” for the Arab world, causing “the overwhelming majority of Palestinians” to be “forcibly evicted from their ancestral homeland”;
* Israel continues, “n contravention of International law, human rights, and basic principles of morality … to deny these refugees and their descendants their right to return home”;
* the very existence of a Jewish state is the result of a grave “historic injustice”;
* the “illegal appropriation of Palestinian land, home and heritage is at the heart of the Middle East conflict”;
* Israel is guilty of “land theft” and an “ongoing ethnic cleansing that has squeezed Palestinians in the West Bank into ghettos and bantustans surrounded by 27-foot walls, sniper towers, and military guards”; and
* Gaza is essentially an “open-air prison” with an “impoverished and overcrowded population.”Among FG’s foremost demands are the following:
* “Israel must withdraw its military presence from all territories occupied since June 5, 1967 and revoke all legislation, regulations, directives and practices that apply differently to different populations living in those territories.”
* “Israel must demolish all barriers built to restrict passage in all territories occupied by Israel since June 5, 1967.”
* “[A]ll Palestinian refugees and exiles and their heirs [must be permitted] to return to their homes in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories; to recover their properties, and to receive compensation for damage, dispossession and unlawful use of such property.”
| 295 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:20:15pm |
re: #285 researchok
To be clear- whatever legitimate issues the Palestinians might have with the Israelis will always be trumped by the stated Palestinian genocidal intent.
Terror and genocide are not legitimate forms of political expression in the civilized world.
Let me know when the civilized world emerges from teh hyoomanity.
| 296 |
darthstar Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:20:17pm |
re: #279 Gus 802
Here’s what you will find at the ISM site, Palestinian Solidarity Movement:
Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ site:palsolidarity.org
That says it all.
Terrorist sympathizers and supporters.
Who We Are
The International Solidarity Movement (ISM) is a Palestinian-led movement committed to resisting the Israeli apartheid in Palestine by using nonviolent, direct-action methods and principles. Founded by a small group of activists in August, 2001, ISM aims to support and strengthen the Palestinian popular resistance by providing the Palestinian people with two resources, international solidarity and an international voice with which to nonviolently resist an overwhelming military occupation force.
Sorry, I don’t see anything about advocating the killing of Jews on that site.
| 297 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:20:48pm |
re: #284 Bagua
Yes, there are many self-hating Jews, just as there are Americans who hate America. Certainly there are also deluded fools, but when they are trying to supply the genocidal Hama terrorists, I don’t give them the benefit of the doubt.
the other day i posted Rudi G’s ideas about the Spill and BO and some other stuff…and Darthstar called him a self-loathing America hater!…these people are really fucked up…children of the Drum Circle
| 298 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:20:50pm |
| 299 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:20:57pm |
re: #214 WindUpBird
By beating the holocaust drum? Yes. Because Hamas IS NOT GERMANY
GOD I wish people were smarter
Bullshit, Iran, Hamas, Hezballah are all on record as wanting to exterminate the Jews. This has been documented many times on this site. Their intentions are just as genocidal as the Nazis.
| 300 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:21:16pm |
re: #296 darthstar
Sorry, I don’t see anything about advocating the killing of Jews on that site.
It’s easy for them to type words.
| 301 |
avanti Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:21:19pm |
re: #281 Dark_Falcon
It can never be admitted that Obama is not proceeding from malicious intent. Anyone making such an admission will be deemed a RINO and shunned accordingly.
One other theory is the normal trial balloon. The possibility that Kristol just got it wrong again has not been considered, but they have another spin on the story, from another source in the know./
“Sources of mine who are in positions to know confirmed that they’ve heard the same thing [as Kristol]. I suspect what’s going on here is a White House shot across the bow, a reminder to Bibi that things can get very nasty if he defies The One. Remember: the 10-month settlement freeze ends in September, right before the midterms, and Bibi plans on firing up the backhoes again. His coalition would fall apart if he didn’t, and he would look pathetic to boot. But in deference to the electoral prospects of his party, Obama doesn’t want to kick off another chapter in the Obama-Israel psychodrama right before the midterms. The Israelis know this and are keeping their powder dry for September. Obama is probably trying to warn them that he’d love nothing more than to let Susan Rice throw them unprotected into the UN arena.”
| 302 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:22:57pm |
Shadi Sukiya, a senior member of the Islamic Jihad in Jenin who was involved in the planning of several thwarted suicide attacks, was arrested by IDF troops while hiding in the offices of the International Solidarity Movement…
| 303 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:23:08pm |
| 304 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:23:45pm |
| 305 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:23:45pm |
re: #294 Gus 802
Another “Western” Leftist group.
[…]
* “[A]ll Palestinian refugees and exiles and their heirs [must be permitted] to return to their homes in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories; to recover their properties, and to receive compensation for damage, dispossession and unlawful use of such property.”
Aye, there’s the rub. That’s the stealth way of calling for the destruction of Israel.
| 306 |
Racer X Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:23:46pm |
Your “Laugh for the Day!”
David McClure from the “Dallas News Community Opinion page”
$5.37. That’s what the kid behind the counter at Taco Bueno said to me. I dug into my pocket and pulled out some lint and two dimes and something that used to be a Jolly Rancher. Having already handed the kid a five-spot, I started to head back out to the truck to grab some change when the kid with the Emo hairdo said the harshest thing anyone has ever said to me. He said, “It’s OK ! I’ll just give you the senior citizen discount.”
I turned to see who he was talking to and then heard the sound of change hitting the counter in front of me. “Only $4.68,” he said cheerfully. I stood there stupefied. I am 48, not even 50 yet, a mere child! Senior citizen?
I took my burrito and walked out to the truck wondering what was wrong with Emo! Was he blind? As I sat in the truck, my blood began to boil. Old? Me?
I’ll show him, I thought. I opened the door and headed back inside. I strode to the counter, and there he was waiting with a smile.
Before I could say a word, he held up something and jingled it in front of me, like I could be that easily distracted! What am I now? A toddler? “Dude! Can’t get too far without your car keys, eh?” I stared with utter disdain at the keys. I began to rationalize in my mind. “Leaving keys behind hardly makes a man elderly! It could happen to anyone!”
I turned and headed back to the truck. I slipped the key into the ignition, but it wouldn’t turn. What now? I checked my keys and tried another. Still nothing. That’s when I noticed the purple beads hanging from my rearview mirror. I had no purple beads hanging from my rearview mirror!
Then, a few other objects came into focus. The car seat in the back, Happy Meal toys spread all over the floorboard, a partially eaten doughnut on the dashboard.
Faster than you can say ‘ginkgo biloba,’ I flew out of the alien vehicle. Moments later I was speeding out of the parking lot, relieved to finally be leaving this nightmarish stop in my life. That is when I felt it, deep in the bowels of my stomach, …..hunger! My stomach growled and churned, and I reached to grab my burrito, only it was nowhere to be found!
I swung the truck around, gathered my courage, and strode back into the restaurant one final time. There Emo stood, draped in youth and black nail polish. All I could think was, “What is the world coming to?” but all I could say was, “Did I leave my food and drink in here?” At this point I was ready to ask a Boy Scout to help me back to my vehicle, and then go straight home and apply for Social Security benefits.
Emo had no clue. I walked back out to the truck, and suddenly a young lad came up and tugged on my jeans to get my attention. He was holding up a drink and a bag. His mother explained, “I think you left this in my truck by mistake!” I took the food and drink from the little boy and sheepishly apologized. She offered these kind words: “It’s OK ! My grandfather does stuff like this all the time!”
All of this is to explain how I got a ticket doing 85 in a 40. Yes, I was racing some punk kid in a Toyota Prius … And no, I told the officer, I’m not too old to be driving this fast!
As I walked in the front door, my wife met me halfway down the hall. I handed her a bag of cold food and a $300 speeding ticket. I promptly sat in my rocking chair and covered up my legs with a blanky.
The good news was I had successfully found my way home!
| 307 |
darthstar Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:23:57pm |
re: #292 KDS1
Were did you get this stat from??!?! The only Israelis on the marmara were israeli-muslim-arabs.
Hell, I wish I’d bookmarked it now, but there were something like 500 people on the group of boats in that flotilla, and yes, there were Israelis aboard who also happened to be Jewish. This may come as a surprise, but there are a number of Israelis who disagree with their government’s current policies, unlike the United States, where we’re in 100% agreement with our president’s actions.
| 308 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:24:01pm |
re: #287 marjoriemoon
I would be more concerned what the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem took away from Hitler and his little murder machine than the other way around. Those lessons are still being played out today at least in ideology.
If we’re going to say Never Again and mean it, we have to recognize where it starts and stop it before people suffer. We do that, IMO, by not supporting rouge regimes like Cuba, Iran or Gaza. We put the crunch on them economically until they disintegrate from within.
Well, I’m with you up until the last sentence. The crunch has been on, and they have not disintegrated; they elected Hamas. I’m not saying we were wrong to ‘crunch’, but that they will not necessarily collapse from within because of economic conditions. Look at North Korea. And that collapse does mean huge, huge amounts of suffering amongst the population, many of whom have simply been fed an enormous diet of bullshit propaganda from age one.
I don’t have an alternate solution, though, except moving away from oil so that we can defund the Islamic states.
| 309 |
brownbagj Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:24:07pm |
re: #303 researchok
Dreamer!
Oh, the WHOmanity. Seriously just got through watching the Grinch with Jim Carrey.
| 310 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:24:08pm |
Yep, they’re all peace and cookies.
Says so on the label.
If anyone is interested I have a great deal on the Brooklyn Bridge.
| 311 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:24:38pm |
re: #240 darthstar
No, I protest when people call anyone they they disagree with regarding Israeli/Palestinian relations anti-semite.
They are mostly anti-Semites. Why do you not weigh in on the threads about Rush, and So-cons, and Palin and argue on their behalf? Don’t we say mean things about them as well?
| 312 |
darthstar Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:25:01pm |
re: #305 Cato the Elder
Aye, there’s the rub. That’s the stealth way of calling for the destruction of Israel.
Anchor-babies? We’d never get our panties in a twist over that here in the United States.
| 313 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:25:14pm |
re: #307 darthstar
Hell, I wish I’d bookmarked it now, but there were something like 500 people on the group of boats in that flotilla, and yes, there were Israelis aboard who also happened to be Jewish. This may come as a surprise, but there are a number of Israelis who disagree with their government’s current policies, unlike the United States, where we’re in 100% agreement with our president’s actions.
no links?….you are all fucked up dude, and patronizing is the last refuge of the beaten
| 314 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:25:16pm |
re: #296 darthstar
Sorry, I don’t see anything about advocating the killing of Jews on that site.
Did you see it in the marmara pre-sail brochure?
| 315 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:25:31pm |
re: #290 Cato the Elder
I don’t care where you got your Jew-hate. From the Bible or from the Koran. It’s all the same God-damned thing.
Well, I think it’s wise to know where it stems from so that we can combat it more effectively. I don’t think it’s as easy as saying it comes from the Koran. It is pushed through propaganda. It is not just pushed by having them read the Koran.
| 316 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:26:00pm |
re: #294 Gus 802
Another “Western” Leftist group.
* “[A]ll Palestinian refugees and exiles and their heirs [must be permitted] to return to their homes in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories; to recover their properties, and to receive compensation for damage, dispossession and unlawful use of such property.”
This one is quoted because if met it would mean the extinction of Israel as a Jewish state, which would mean the extinction of all Jews in Israel given the Anti-Semetic and Islamist beliefs of the great majority of the Palestinians. The Free Gaza people have been told this many times and its truth has been demonstrated to them. Their refusal to even engage said arguments renders them guilty of extreme moral blindness at a minimum.
| 317 |
darthstar Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:26:33pm |
| 319 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:27:04pm |
re: #308 Obdicut
Well, I’m with you up until the last sentence. The crunch has been on, and they have not disintegrated; they elected Hamas. I’m not saying we were wrong to ‘crunch’, but that they will not necessarily collapse from within because of economic conditions. Look at North Korea. And that collapse does mean huge, huge amounts of suffering amongst the population, many of whom have simply been fed an enormous diet of bullshit propaganda [and sawdust] from age one.
I don’t have an alternate solution, though, except moving away from oil so that we can defund the Islamic states.
Put your hands in the air and move away from that oil!
| 321 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:27:59pm |
re: #235 Cato the Elder
I call him an objective supporter of people who objectively support jihad.
Yep, he harries every anti-Jihadi post on this site. Yet never a peep when a republican or talk show host is outed. As there are countless sites on the internet that sympathise with the Jihadis and demonise Israel, what is his purpose here at one of the key sites exposing this blind hatred?
| 322 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:28:12pm |
| 323 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:28:25pm |
re: #315 Obdicut
Well, I think it’s wise to know where it stems from so that we can combat it more effectively. I don’t think it’s as easy as saying it comes from the Koran. It is pushed through propaganda. It is not just pushed by having them read the Koran.
That’s a good start, though.
Most Jew-hating Nazis were not all chapter-and-versy in Mein Kampf, either.
| 324 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:28:25pm |
re: #317 darthstar
I wasn’t on the boat. Did you?
you seem to have enough insights into the passengers minds, not being there and all
| 325 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:29:04pm |
re: #242 Cato the Elder
He does not know what he means. He merely posts.
Oh he knows, the posts are always on the same side.
| 326 |
darthstar Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:29:11pm |
re: #324 albusteve
you seem to have enough insights into the passengers minds, not being there and all
As do you.
| 327 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:29:19pm |
| 328 |
Political Atheist Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:29:26pm |
re: #10 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
May I try to persuade you otherwise? Watch for the names.
I think the newspapers should put the photographers name and professional affiliation on every published shot. Those guys and girls deserve the credit. Not just combat, or riots. The late night crime scene and day to day story photog/videographer. Let them develop a reputation, maybe even a following. Like Ringo!
| 329 |
brookly red Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:29:43pm |
re: #320 KDS1
The world belongs to the young. libertarians
| 330 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:29:45pm |
re: #320 KDS1
The world belongs to the young.
fine with me…you can have it
if BO can get elected, then Bozo the Clown can get elected….in 20 years a game show host will be POTUS
| 331 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:30:19pm |
re: #317 darthstar
You still didnt answer- were did you get that 63 jewish israelis were on the flotilla?
| 332 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:30:54pm |
re: #316 Dark_Falcon
This one is quoted because if met it would mean the extinction of Israel as a Jewish state, which would mean the extinction of all Jews in Israel given the Anti-Semetic and Islamist beliefs of the great majority of the Palestinians. The Free Gaza people have been told this many times and its truth has been demonstrated to them. Their refusal to even engage said arguments renders them guilty of extreme moral blindness at a minimum.
Many refuse to acknowledge what that means as they refuse to acknowledge the reality of Hamas, Fatah, and the greater Arab world and its hostility towards Israel.
Since I posted the link to Discover the Networks here it is straight from the horse mouth.
| 333 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:30:56pm |
re: #326 darthstar
As do you.
I never insinuated what those people were thinking, you are making shit up
| 337 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:33:16pm |
re: #332 Gus 802
Many refuse to acknowledge what that means as they refuse to acknowledge the reality of Hamas, Fatah, and the greater Arab world and its hostility towards Israel.
Since I posted the link to Discover the Networks here it is straight from the horse mouth.
If they refuse to acknowledge what that means and continue to support the Islamists, then they are objectively pro Radical Islam.
| 338 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:33:37pm |
Sorry, but saying there were Jewish people on the MV Mavi Marmara reminds me of when people were arguing that there were black soldiers in the Confederate Army.
| 339 |
darthstar Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:33:41pm |
re: #331 KDS1
You still didnt answer- were did you get that 63 jewish israelis were on the flotilla?
I read it on the internets, just like everyone else does these days. No, I didn’t book-mark it. No, I won’t go “look it up”. And no, I didn’t just make it up. But feel free to disbelieve me…it’s much easier that way.
| 340 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:33:47pm |
| 341 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:34:47pm |
re: #308 Obdicut
Well, I’m with you up until the last sentence. The crunch has been on, and they have not disintegrated; they elected Hamas. I’m not saying we were wrong to ‘crunch’, but that they will not necessarily collapse from within because of economic conditions. Look at North Korea. And that collapse does mean huge, huge amounts of suffering amongst the population, many of whom have simply been fed an enormous diet of bullshit propaganda from age one.
I don’t have an alternate solution, though, except moving away from oil so that we can defund the Islamic states.
The crunch HAS NOT been on. They get billions upon billions. The U.N. doesn’t have the balls or brains, I’m not sure which to actually monitor what happens to all of it each year. Money that comes from the U.S. and E.U., funneled through the U.N. for refugees. The agency in UNRWA. The money goes to Gaza, Egypt, Jordan and the West Bank.
Egypt and Jordan “refugees” shouldn’t get a dime because they are citizens of their own countries, not refugees. They should be getting benefits from their own governments.
I do have a solution. Start monitoring the money that goes into the black hole of UNRWA. The Palestine textbooks and curriculum funded by UN money still tells of a Middle East history that doesn’t include Jews or Israel on the map. The Clintons fought the U.N. on this during Bill’s administration and didn’t get too far. I have a ton of links on that if you’re interested.
| 342 |
brookly red Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:34:48pm |
re: #336 MandyManners
Just in case I’ve not done this yet,
WELCOME!!!
yes you have done it a coupla times…
| 343 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:35:21pm |
re: #339 darthstar
I read it on the internets, just like everyone else does these days. No, I didn’t book-mark it. No, I won’t go “look it up”. And no, I didn’t just make it up. But feel free to disbelieve me…it’s much easier that way.
it is…you are catching on
| 344 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:36:14pm |
Mandy never welcomed me…it’s likely I’ll never get over the hurt
| 345 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:36:23pm |
re: #338 Gus 802
Sorry, but saying there were Jewish people on the MV Mavi Marmara reminds me of when people were arguing that there were black soldiers in the Confederate Army.
Exactly. And funny how it seems to turn out the the most virulently anti-Gay preachers and politicians turn out to be hiring male escorts? Should our argument be that it is alright to be a homophobic bigot because some of them are gay?
Complete hypocrisy.
| 347 |
brookly red Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:37:39pm |
| 348 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:38:08pm |
| 349 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:38:51pm |
re: #341 marjoriemoon
I mean that the crunch hasn’t worked with Cuba or with North Korea. Or Iran, for that matter. The only time the ‘crunch’ could be said to have worked was with the Soviet Union, and I think that was actually much more a cultural thing.
Gaza does get a ton of aid, but they really do have a shitty, screwed up economy, too; it’s hard to have a thriving one when a fucked up band of thugs is in charge and busy scavenging the infrastructure and goading the Israelis into attacking.
By any rational logic, the citizens of Gaza should have already rejected Hamas.
| 350 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:39:11pm |
re: #346 researchok
There’s a Welcome Wagon?
Yes, and we’re going to use it to run Windsagio over. X(
| 351 |
Racer X Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:39:19pm |
I just received the following via email. Help me out - which parts are untrue?
Your Social Security:
Social Security Cards up until the 1980s expressly stated the number and card were not to be used for identification purposes. Since nearly everyone in the United States now has a number, it became convenient to use it anyway and the message was removed.
Franklin Roosevelt, a Democrat, introduced the Social Security (FICA) Program. He promised:
1.) That participation in the Program would be completely voluntary.
No longer Voluntary
2.) That the participants would only have to pay 1% of the first $1,400 of their annual income into the Program.
Now 7.65% on the first $90,000
3.) That the money the participants elected to put into the Program would be deductible from their income for tax purposes each year.
No longer tax deductible
4..) That the money the participants put into the independent ‘Trust Fund’ rather than into the general operating fund, and therefore, would only be used to fund the Social Security Retirement Program, and no other Government program.
Under Johnson the money was moved to the General Fund and Spent.
5.) That the annuity payments to the retirees would never be taxed as income.
Under Clinton & Gore up to 85% of your Social Security can be Taxed
Q: Which Political Party took Social Security from the independent ‘Trust Fund’ and put it into the general fund so that Congress could spend it?
A: It was Lyndon Johnson and the democratically controlled House and Senate.
Q: Which Political Party eliminated the income tax deduction for Social Security (FICA) withholding?
A: The Democratic Party.
Q: Which Political Party started taxing Social
Security annuities?
A: The Democratic Party, with Al Gore casting the ‘tie-breaking’ deciding vote as President of the Senate, while he was Vice President of the US
Q: Which Political Party decided to start
giving annuity payments to immigrants?
A: That’s right!
Jimmy Carter and the Democratic Party.
Then, after violating the original contract (FICA),
the Democrats turn around and tell you that the Republicans want to take your Social Security away!
The worst part about it is uninformed citizens believe it and believe that the Democats are “for the people.”
AND CONGRESS GIVES THEMSELVES 100%
RETIREMENT FOR ONLY SERVING ONE TERM
| 352 |
darthstar Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:39:34pm |
re: #333 albusteve
I never insinuated what those people were thinking, you are making shit up
You’re really not aware of how you sound sometimes, are you? It’s okay…it happens to all of us.
For example, in 297 or something above you say “the other day i posted Rudi G’s ideas about the Spill and BO and some other stuff…and Darthstar called him a self-loathing America hater!…these people are really fucked up…children of the Drum Circle”
I called Giuliani a “self-hating American” as a joke, as someone else had been making comments about Jewish people criticizing Israel as “self-hating Jews”…obviously, that went over your head, and I apologize for that. The problem with black and white thinking is that it forces you to always be black or always be white. Then, when someone points out the irony of a statement you make, you wind up getting all hot and bothered because you realize finally that you were in fact being exactly what you pride yourself in not being.
| 353 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:39:43pm |
Hey, I have an idea! The Red and Black Cafe in Portland should move shop to Gaza. Then, they can kick out one of the local Hamas cops.
That outta work out swell.
//
| 354 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:39:52pm |
| 355 |
prairiefire Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:39:56pm |
re: #346 researchok
There’s a Welcome Wagon?
Sure, it will be right over with a bottle of Cabernet and some foi gras.
| 356 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:40:02pm |
But lets not be unfair, maybe they are just peace activists, not anti-Semites.
| 357 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:40:36pm |
re: #341 marjoriemoon
The crunch HAS NOT been on. They get billions upon billions. The U.N. doesn’t have the balls or brains, I’m not sure which to actually monitor what happens to all of it each year. Money that comes from the U.S. and E.U., funneled through the U.N. for refugees. The agency in UNRWA. The money goes to Gaza, Egypt, Jordan and the West Bank.
Egypt and Jordan “refugees” shouldn’t get a dime because they are citizens of their own countries, not refugees. They should be getting benefits from their own governments.
I do have a solution. Start monitoring the money that goes into the black hole of UNRWA. The Palestine textbooks and curriculum funded by UN money still tells of a Middle East history that doesn’t include Jews or Israel on the map. The Clintons fought the U.N. on this during Bill’s administration and didn’t get too far. I have a ton of links on that if you’re interested.
The funding is indeed a great issue. If it did went to infrastructure and welfare, i think it would harm the Hamas greatly.
| 358 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:42:24pm |
re: #352 darthstar
You’re really not aware of how you sound sometimes, are you? It’s okay…it happens to all of us.
For example, in 297 or something above you say “the other day i posted Rudi G’s ideas about the Spill and BO and some other stuff…and Darthstar called him a self-loathing America hater!…these people are really fucked up…children of the Drum Circle”
I called Giuliani a “self-hating American” as a joke, as someone else had been making comments about Jewish people criticizing Israel as “self-hating Jews”…obviously, that went over your head, and I apologize for that. The problem with black and white thinking is that it forces you to always be black or always be white. Then, when someone points out the irony of a statement you make, you wind up getting all hot and bothered because you realize finally that you were in fact being exactly what you pride yourself in not being.
I take you exactly for what you post…if I don’t get something, that’s your problem
| 359 |
darthstar Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:43:02pm |
re: #358 albusteve
I take you exactly for what you post…if I don’t get something, that’s your problem
Fair enough. And with that, I’m off this thread.
Cheers.
| 360 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:43:57pm |
re: #353 Gus 802
Hey, I have an idea! The Red and Black Cafe in Portland should move shop to Gaza. Then, they can kick out one of the local Hamas cops.
That outta work out swell.
//
Red and Black Cafe
Safer Space Policy
We strive to eliminate any oppressive actions, behaviors, and language in this space. These include, but are not limited to, racism, sexism, ageism, sizeism, classism, ableism, transphobia and heterosexism. We want this to be a comfortable space for everyone. Please feel free to approach a collective member in confidence should anyone here make you feel unsafe.
They would be run out of the Palestinian areas.
| 361 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:44:21pm |
re: #356 Bagua
But lets not be unfair, maybe they are just peace activists, not anti-Semites.
I see a swastika in the background of that photo.
| 362 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:45:35pm |
re: #355 prairiefire
Sure, it will be right over with a bottle of Cabernet and some foi gras.
Delivered by an large ex con named Peaches, right?
| 363 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:46:11pm |
| 364 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:46:33pm |
re: #360 Bagua
They would be run out of the Palestinian areas.
I don’t think they’d even be able to get a liquor license. They’d also harass the effeminate men. They would also have to forget about trans anything for that matter. In fact it would probably be 24 hours before they’re be clamouring to escape to Israel.
| 365 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:47:34pm |
re: #312 darthstar
Anchor-babies? We’d never get our panties in a twist over that here in the United States.
The Right of Return is a bit more complicated than that.
| 366 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:48:32pm |
re: #353 Gus 802
Hey, I have an idea! The Red and Black Cafe in Portland should move shop to Gaza. Then, they can kick out one of the local Hamas cops.
That outta work out swell.
//
I like that idea.
| 367 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:48:56pm |
| 368 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:49:14pm |
re: #364 Gus 802
Palestinian gays flee to Israel
A number of gay Palestinian men are risking their lives to cross the border into Israel, claiming they feel safer among Israelis than their own people.
According to some estimates, there are now 300 gay Palestinian men secretly living and working in Israel.
…
Gay Palestinians say they are mainly persecuted at home because of religious attitudes. Many Muslims claim that homosexuality is strictly against the Koran.
| 369 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:50:05pm |
| 370 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:51:28pm |
When nations that are that are led by or are under the influence of tyrants or dictators, attempt to justify those actions, we can rightly assume that justification is false. Tyrants and dictators do not make moral choices, because moral choices can only lead to the demise of the tyranny.
Anyone that comes to the defense of tyrannical regimes and their leaders, have themselves made a conscious choice to defend and stand by what is immoral.
| 371 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:53:24pm |
re: #349 Obdicut
I mean that the crunch hasn’t worked with Cuba or with North Korea. Or Iran, for that matter. The only time the ‘crunch’ could be said to have worked was with the Soviet Union, and I think that was actually much more a cultural thing.
Gaza does get a ton of aid, but they really do have a shitty, screwed up economy, too; it’s hard to have a thriving one when a fucked up band of thugs is in charge and busy scavenging the infrastructure and goading the Israelis into attacking.
By any rational logic, the citizens of Gaza should have already rejected Hamas.
Well that’s true. There’s a thriving black market in Cuba, too.
If you try to apply rational logic to this situation, you’ll get continually frustrated :)
Who pointed me to that article on Vanity Fair, The Gaza Bombshell? I haven’t read it all, but it’s about how Bush backed the Hamas election so as to split the Palestinians into the two groups, Hamas and Fatah. Then Bush would arm Fatah in a civil war against Hamas and basically annihilate them. Except it backfired. It’s all premised on relying on this terrorist thug named Muhmmad Dahlen, kind of a Fatah spy living in Gaza.
I remember hearing about this after their election. That Bush would arm Fatah against Hamas, but then nothing happened. Condi made many trips to visit Abbas in 2006, 2007, before the elections. But it was never reported why she went or what was discussed. Just in interests of “peace.”
It wasn’t such a bad idea. My guess is Bush put his trust in the wrong people.
| 373 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:54:49pm |
re: #372 MandyManners
Really? Man, short-term memory is a wonderful thing. I wish I had some.
do you remember who won?
| 375 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:55:36pm |
re: #357 KDS1
The funding is indeed a great issue. If it did went to infrastructure and welfare, i think it would harm the Hamas greatly.
The problem is any dissidents in Gaza are dealt with cruelly. Hamas doesn’t tolerate those who are against them.
| 376 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:55:38pm |
re: #365 SanFranciscoZionist
The Right of Return is a bit more complicated than that.
Citizenship status is derived by way of one of two criteria- ‘blood’ or ‘land.’
In the United States, for example, citizenship is primarily derived by ‘land’ status. That means that if you were born here, you are automatically awarded citizenship.
Conversely, being born in Switzerland is no guarantee of citizenship. In fact, there are generations of people that have been born in Switzerland that are not entitled to Swiss citizenship according to Swiss law.
Descendants of British, Irish and Polish ancestry, for example, are all entitled to enhanced and privileged immigration status by those nations. Throughout most of Europe, having even a bit of ‘preferred’ blood entitles one to a citizenship ‘fast track.’
Israel has every right to determine her own immigration rules.
| 377 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:55:56pm |
re: #369 Dark_Falcon
Even the Beeb knows how badly Hamas and Fatah treat gays.
Exactly, al-Beeb is notoriously hostile to Israel. Funny enough I’ve never heard a peep of condemnation of this by those two.
Yet if the subject is a politician or radio host not supporting gay marriage, they howl in rage. In Gaza and the west bank the gays fear for their lives.
Not supporting gay marriage, condemn and rage. Support groups killing and oppressing gays, a constant flurry of posts how they are not so bad.
| 378 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:56:35pm |
| 380 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:57:18pm |
re: #368 Bagua
Unfortunately, that’s an old story. I had a gay Palestinian hairdresser years ago. He fled through Israel and eventually wound up in Miami, probably back in the mid 90s.
| 382 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:57:43pm |
re: #370 researchok
When nations that are that are led by or are under the influence of tyrants or dictators, attempt to justify those actions, we can rightly assume that justification is false. Tyrants and dictators do not make moral choices, because moral choices can only lead to the demise of the tyranny.
Anyone that comes to the defense of tyrannical regimes and their leaders, have themselves made a conscious choice to defend and stand by what is immoral.
It reminds me of when they were siding with North Vietnam or the Peoples Republic of China. Not so much the USSR but they still had an odd fascination with the Soviet Union. It’s like when you see the young posers wearing Che Guevara t-shirts knowing full well that Guevara hated popular music and artists. They unknowingly defend totalitarian regimes even when those very same ideologies are against everything they claim to be about.
| 383 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:58:19pm |
re: #377 Bagua
Exactly, al-Beeb is notoriously hostile to Israel. Funny enough I’ve never heard a peep of condemnation of this by those two.
Yet if the subject is a politician or radio host not supporting gay marriage, they howl in rage. In Gaza and the west bank the gays fear for their lives.
Not supporting gay marriage, condemn and rage. Support groups killing and oppressing gays, a constant flurry of posts how they are not so bad.
Ack. Who’s Beeb?
| 386 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:59:30pm |
Gets even better…
Hamas Approves Law To Execute Pot Dealers In Gaza
Selling pot can now officially get you killed in Gaza City — by the government, that is.
Despite the area’s proud tradition of fine hashish (Blond Lebanese, anyone?) the Hamas-run government of Gaza has approved a law that will allow for the execution of “convicted drug dealers,” its attorney general said today, according to the Associated Press.
The Islamist government ruling Gaza is taking a page from the tired old playbook of drug prohibitionists in America and worldwide — that imposing draconian sentences will reduce drug smuggling and discourage drug use. The policy, in place for close to a century in many parts of the world, has proved to be a colossal failure.
CONTINUES
Put that in your pip and smoke it, hippies! ;)
| 388 |
albusteve Fri, Jun 11, 2010 6:59:52pm |
| 389 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:00:00pm |
| 391 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:01:06pm |
re: #385 MandyManners
How can I save that image, Bagua?
Right click the image and then left click on “save.” I’ll post it to pages and give you a link as well.
| 392 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:01:19pm |
re: #356 Bagua
But lets not be unfair, maybe they are just peace activists, not anti-Semites.
LOL I don’t know why I’m laughing. IT’S NOT FUNNYYYY. It’s just sometimes life looks more like a Monty Python movie than reality.
Either that or I have to think we’re all doomed.
| 393 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:01:23pm |
re: #375 marjoriemoon
The problem is any dissidents in Gaza are dealt with cruelly. Hamas doesn’t tolerate those who are against them.
This is how a dictatorship works.
They have used all the infrastructures in Gaza to their military use. There are no traffic signs in Gaza because they made kassams out of them. There is no possible opposition for them as long as they control the aid and resources.
| 396 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:04:07pm |
re: #394 MandyManners
Any safe place for Iranian homosexuals?
Oh, wait. According to ShortShit, there are no homosexuals in Iran.
Except those he hung to death in the streets of course. Nice, tolerant society?
| 400 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:05:53pm |
re: #377 Bagua
Exactly, al-Beeb is notoriously hostile to Israel. Funny enough I’ve never heard a peep of condemnation of this by those two.
Yet if the subject is a politician or radio host not supporting gay marriage, they howl in rage. In Gaza and the west bank the gays fear for their lives.
Not supporting gay marriage, condemn and rage. Support groups killing and oppressing gays, a constant flurry of posts how they are not so bad.
The left thinks that the Arabs cannot be expected to do better, or that it is not our place to judge them. The second is non-judgmentalism gone insane, while the first is what George W. Bush called “the soft bigotry of low expectations”.
| 401 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:06:18pm |
re: #380 marjoriemoon
Unfortunately, that’s an old story. I had a gay Palestinian hairdresser years ago. He fled through Israel and eventually wound up in Miami, probably back in the mid 90s.
Christian Palestinians (mostly Catholic) have been fleeing their loving Muslim brethren for some time now. Viz. Bethlehem.
This story has been reported over and over, yet somehow it has no bearing on Islamism in the West Bank. At least not in the minds of wussful thinkers.
| 402 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:07:34pm |
re: #394 MandyManners
Any safe place for Iranian homosexuals?
Oh, wait. According to ShortShit, there are no homosexuals in Iran.
Its not true. They are considered to be the tallest Iranians:
| 403 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:07:38pm |
Unmarried couples are not permitted to live together or share hotel accommodation in the Gaza Strip or the West Bank.
| 404 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:08:33pm |
re: #397 MandyManners
Pres. Bush should’ve trusted Hamas?
No, he trusted Fatah, but I don’t think that’s the whole story. Print the article and read it. I have to finish it. These things aren’t usually very black and white.
| 408 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:10:25pm |
re: #401 Cato the Elder
Christian Palestinians (mostly Catholic) have been fleeing their loving Muslim brethren for some time now. Viz. Bethlehem.
This story has been reported over and over, yet somehow it has no bearing on Islamism in the West Bank. At least not in the minds of wussful thinkers.
Christians are being persecuted and driven out of Gaza as well.
Cranmer is a great blogger.
| 409 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:11:09pm |
re: #401 Cato the Elder
Christian Palestinians (mostly Catholic) have been fleeing their loving Muslim brethren for some time now. Viz. Bethlehem.
This story has been reported over and over, yet somehow it has no bearing on Islamism in the West Bank. At least not in the minds of wussful thinkers.
Bethlehem. That’s another awful story! 250,000 Christians, I believe, the once largest Christian community in Israel whittled down to what, 25,000 people?
| 410 |
Racer X Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:11:23pm |
A doctor in St John’s Newfoundland wanted to get off work and go hunting, so he approached his janitor. “I am goin’ huntin’ tomorrow Buddy and don’t want to close the clinic. I want you to take care of the clinic and take care of all my patients and I’ll give you fifty bucks.”
“Yes, sir!” answers Buddy
The doctor goes hunting and returns the following day and asks: “So, Buddy, How was your day?”
Buddy told him that he took care of three patients. “The first one had a Headache so I gave him TYLENOL.”
“Bravo Buddy! The second one?” asks the doctor.
“The second one had a bad stomach and I gave him MAALOX, sir.” says Buddy
“Bravo, bravo! You’re good at this and what about the third one?” asks the Doctor
“Well Sir, I was sitting here having a smoke and suddenly the door flies opens and a woman enters. Like a flame, she undresses herself, taking off everything including her bra and her panties and lies down on the table and shouts: HELP ME - I haven’t seen a man in over two years
“Lard Tunderin’ Yeezus, Buddy!!! What did you do?”
I put drops in her eyes!!
| 413 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:14:23pm |
re: #404 marjoriemoon
No, he trusted Fatah, but I don’t think that’s the whole story. Print the article and read it. I have to finish it. These things aren’t usually very black and white.
He armed Fatah, and they manged to seize control of Gaza a few years back. But they were very corrupted, and then, when they held an election in Gaza, Hamas used their military power (they armed themselves with far more then what Bush and Israel gave the palestinian police of Fatah), to intimidate the Gazans and to win the elections. Not very long ago there was some kind of a mini civil war in Gaza, then Hamas killed the last of the Fatah supporters left in Gaza.
| 414 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:14:54pm |
re: #407 MandyManners
Thank you.
That’s the circumstantial way to do it. You can also, as mentioned above, right-click on the image and select “copy image location” (= URL) and a bunch of other options, including saving the image directly to your computer. That’s in Firefox; your mileage may vary.
When in doubt, always right-click.
| 415 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:14:56pm |
re: #412 MandyManners
Here. Just put the http:// in front of the rest. I enlarged it as well.
http://
littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/img/bagua/2010/06/11/72063.jpg
| 417 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:15:39pm |
re: #408 Bagua
Christians are being persecuted and driven out of Gaza as well.
Cranmer is a great blogger.
Yea, the siege on the Church of the Nativity by Arafat. And the Catholic Church was completely silent on the whole matter.
| 418 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:15:41pm |
re: #408 Bagua
Christians are being persecuted and driven out of Gaza as well.
Cranmer is a great blogger.
Its much shorter to write of those who aren’t forced to flee Gaza.
| 420 |
prairiefire Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:16:09pm |
re: #342 brookly red
Maybe this is the Israeli version? Meh, the toobes, it is hard to tell sometimes.
| 421 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:16:20pm |
| 425 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:17:51pm |
re: #423 MandyManners
I never would’ve noticed that until you pointed it out, Gus.
Thanks. I didn’t notice it when I was typing. /
| 426 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:18:09pm |
re: #417 marjoriemoon
Yea, the siege on the Church of the Nativity by Arafat. And the Catholic Church was completely silent on the whole matter.
And that siege was one of their least crimes against the Christian Arab community.
| 428 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:18:43pm |
re: #323 Cato the Elder
That’s a good start, though.
Most Jew-hating Nazis were not all chapter-and-versy in Mein Kampf, either.
Nimed, would you mind explaining why this post earned your esteemed downding?
| 429 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:20:07pm |
It interesting to note that the hate directed at Israel or Jews is never referred to as ‘disproportionate.’ It is also true that the lopsided voting record against Israel by the United Nations Human Rights Commission (an assembly that includes some of the most oppressive and failed nation-states in the world) is never referred to as ‘disproportionate’ despite the admonition of three successive United Nations Secretaries- General…
None of the institutionalized hate and bigotry of the Arab world is ‘disproportionate.’ In fact, the Arabs will tell you that there are not enough calls to genocide and there is not enough hate and racism directed at Israel and Jews. In schools, media and from the pulpit, calls for genocide, bigotry and hate are considered ‘proportionate’ and reasonable…
| 430 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:20:08pm |
More!
Tel Aviv Gay Pride Parade 2010=4G0nbdH1HS4
No where. No where will you find this in the Middle East.
| 435 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:22:59pm |
re: #433 MandyManners
Didja’ see the link I posted this morning about the Saudi man who was sentenced to jail and 90 lashes for kissing a woman in public?
[Link: www.time.com…]
Didn’t see that. What ever happened to that sorcerer? They were about ready to kill him.
| 439 |
prairiefire Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:26:13pm |
re: #400 Dark_Falcon
The left thinks that the Arabs cannot be expected to do better, or that it is not our place to judge them. The second is non-judgmentalism gone insane, while the first is what George W. Bush called “the soft bigotry of low expectations”.
I certainly do expect the Arabs to do better. I expect them to enter the 21st century, educate their women, educate their poor, end sharia law abuse, and stop fostering and abetting Islamic Fascist terrorism.
That’s what I expect and that is what will happen. We are not pouring all our blood and treasure on ME sand for it not to.
| 440 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:26:17pm |
Wife of Lebanese psychic appeals for his release
(AP) – 16 hours ago
BEIRUT — The wife of a Lebanese TV psychic is appealing for her husband’s release just months after he escaped beheading in Saudi Arabia, which convicted him of witchcraft.
Samira Rahmoon held a small protest on Friday outside the government building in Beirut. She says Lebanese officials promised her that her husband would soon return home.
Ali Sibat was arrested by the Saudi religious police during a pilgrimage in the kingdom in May 2008. He was sentenced to death last November on charges of practicing witchcraft.
CONTINUES
| 441 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:26:58pm |
re: #438 MandyManners
Did you see the link I posted for you in #415?
| 444 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:28:24pm |
re: #431 MandyManners
*sob*
Pisses me off to no end.
They have it every single day. They do it so easily and with no regrets. Every time i see those things i remind myself how much i dont hate the Iranians as individuals, but their crazy leaders.
| 445 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:28:58pm |
A passer-by berates Samira Rahmoon, wife of Lebanese TV psychic Ali Sibat, as she tries to block the street outside the Government House in Beirut with her daughter, Jamal. Saudi religious police arrested Sibat in May 2008 and sentenced him to death by beheading on charges of practicing witchcraft, but have since decided against the punishment. Rahmoon says Lebanon officials promised her that he would soon be released.
Image: ba-APTOPIX_Midea_0501810003.jpg
Welcome to the 15th century.
| 447 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:30:38pm |
re: #440 Gus 802
The word “witchcraft” always comes in a negative context.
| 449 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:31:33pm |
| 452 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:34:05pm |
re: #436 MandyManners
Sorry, Marjorie. The anger and language were not directed at you.
Oh no, I didn’t take it like that. Actually, I misread what you said and then read it again! I think we’re on the same page.
| 453 |
Gus Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:34:46pm |
Hasta later! Need some snacks and such.
| 455 |
prairiefire Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:35:50pm |
| 456 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:36:14pm |
re: #451 MandyManners
And I’m still pissed at BHO for being a chicken-shit last summer. Fuck him.
Look to the future…
| 457 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:36:16pm |
re: #430 Gus 802
Love it. Boy have things changed.
My first visit to Israel was in 1978 with B’nai Brith, Young Judea. I was 16. One afternoon, 4 friends and I (3 other girls and a guy), went into town, I believe it was Tel Aviv, but now I don’t remember! Anyway, we were shopping a couple hours and it was hot, so we sat down on the curb on a dead end street out of the way of traffic to rest.
This guy came walking up and started yelling something in Arabic and tossed something at us. Then another guy came up and did the same thing. They were tossing coins. We just laughed and tossed them back. Then another guy and another. Then some women came over and they were angry, screaming at us. We got up and as we started to move away, a crowd formed, maybe 30-40 people. I have no idea where they came from but we started to get scared. They were advancing on us, pressing us into the storefront next to the sidewalk. We all grabbed each other and I screamed, “Run!” And we bolted out from the crowd and ran down the block.
A young Israeli fellow came walking up to explain that they were tossing coins because they thought he was a pimp and we were his hookers. The wives were very upset. It was a scene man.
| 458 |
Nimed Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:36:36pm |
re: #428 Cato the Elder
Nimed, would you mind explaining why this post earned your esteemed downding?
Not at all. I think your implicit comparison between the Koran and Mein Kampf goes way too far.
| 460 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:37:12pm |
re: #453 Gus 802
Hasta later! Need some snacks and such.
Is this what your snacking?!?! They look so innocent!
| 462 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:39:48pm |
re: #457 marjoriemoon
Love it. Boy have things changed.
My first visit to Israel was in 1978 with B’nai Brith, Young Judea. I was 16. One afternoon, 4 friends and I (3 other girls and a guy), went into town, I believe it was Tel Aviv, but now I don’t remember! Anyway, we were shopping a couple hours and it was hot, so we sat down on the curb on a dead end street out of the way of traffic to rest.
This guy came walking up and started yelling something in Arabic and tossed something at us. Then another guy came up and did the same thing. They were tossing coins. We just laughed and tossed them back. Then another guy and another. Then some women came over and they were angry, screaming at us. We got up and as we started to move away, a crowd formed, maybe 30-40 people. I have no idea where they came from but we started to get scared. They were advancing on us, pressing us into the storefront next to the sidewalk. We all grabbed each other and I screamed, “Run!” And we bolted out from the crowd and ran down the block.
A young Israeli fellow came walking up to explain that they were tossing coins because they thought he was a pimp and we were his hookers. The wives were very upset. It was a scene man.
So it was probably Jaffa. Sounds scary.
| 463 |
prairiefire Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:40:48pm |
re: #454 MandyManners
My apologies. I’ve had a few moments to think back. To my recollection, Lebanon saved his neck but, he’s still in the Saudi prison.
Correct?
Get the f out of Saudi, is all I can say. I had a Saudi girl at college ostracize me from her group of Muslim friends because I was Christian. They from some of the wealthiest families in Oman, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia, attending a British school.
She had a poster in her dorm room of a drawing of Jesus crucified on a dagger. That was superimposed onto a photo of huddled Palestinian refugees.
| 464 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:41:09pm |
re: #371 marjoriemoon
Well that’s true. There’s a thriving black market in Cuba, too.
If you try to apply rational logic to this situation, you’ll get continually frustrated :)
Who pointed me to that article on Vanity Fair, The Gaza Bombshell? I haven’t read it all, but it’s about how Bush backed the Hamas election so as to split the Palestinians into the two groups, Hamas and Fatah. Then Bush would arm Fatah in a civil war against Hamas and basically annihilate them. Except it backfired. It’s all premised on relying on this terrorist thug named Muhmmad Dahlen, kind of a Fatah spy living in Gaza.
I remember hearing about this after their election. That Bush would arm Fatah against Hamas, but then nothing happened. Condi made many trips to visit Abbas in 2006, 2007, before the elections. But it was never reported why she went or what was discussed. Just in interests of “peace.”
It wasn’t such a bad idea. My guess is Bush put his trust in the wrong people.
That was me. I think everyone knew exactly what Dahlen and FATAH were, but thought they were better than Hamas, which is true but still misses the point. Even Israel funded Hamas for a time starting in the late 1970s, as a (then young) counterweight to Arafat’s PLO.
Now, let me find a pop culture analogy to describe how this works, in theory. Ah, yes:
Skinner: ahh, but as it turns out the lizards where a god send since they’ve eaten all the pigeons.
Lisa: Isn’t that a little short sighted, what happens when where up to our ears with lizards?
Skinner: Ah, well we shall simply release wave after wave of Chinese needles snakes.
Lisa: then what about the snakes?
Skinner: We simply import gorillas who will eat all the snakes.
Lisa: Well what happens when where up to our ears in gorilla’s!
Skinner: Ah that’s the beauty of the thing, come winter the gorillas will freeze to death.
Are we all just waiting around for winter? Because honestly, I’m doubtful that things are going to play out that way.
| 468 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:42:42pm |
re: #462 KDS1
So it was probably Jaffa. Sounds scary.
It really was. I was thinking it was probably a Saturday when we usually went shopping, but it wasn’t the Arab market in Jerusalem. Maybe it was Jaffa. Tel Aviv is a bit too metropolitan even then for that, ya think?
| 469 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:43:10pm |
re: #463 prairiefire
Get the f out of Saudi, is all I can say. I had a Saudi girl at college ostracize me from her group of Muslim friends because I was Christian. They from some of the wealthiest families in Oman, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia, attending a British school.
She had a poster in her dorm room of a drawing of Jesus crucified on a dagger. That was superimposed onto a photo of huddled Palestinian refugees.
But i thought we killed jesus?
re: #461 MandyManners
| 475 |
Nimed Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:45:39pm |
re: #465 MandyManners
Oh, my stars and bars.
I’m sure you’re fine with comparisons between the Bible and Mein Kampf.
| 478 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:47:01pm |
re: #458 Nimed
Not at all. I think your implicit comparison between the Koran and Mein Kampf goes way too far.
Are you aware of whats written in the Koran about Jews and the history?
| 479 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:47:05pm |
re: #468 marjoriemoon
It really was. I was thinking it was probably a Saturday when we usually went shopping, but it wasn’t the Arab market in Jerusalem. Maybe it was Jaffa. Tel Aviv is a bit too metropolitan even then for that, ya think?
I don’t think any arab would dare to intimidate you in Tel Aviv in the late 70’s.
| 480 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:48:25pm |
re: #464 goddamnedfrank
Are we all just waiting around for winter? Because honestly, I’m doubtful that things are going to play out that way.
Yes, you Frank! Thanks for that. I’m gonna finish that article this weekend! I was reading it at work but kept getting distracted.
Hamas wasn’t really organized as such in the 70s. In fact, this may be silly, but I give a pass to naivety and “do anything for peace” prior to the Reagan, maybe even the Clinton administration, although he should have known better. Certainly after 2000, we really should know better.
| 481 |
Nimed Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:49:10pm |
re: #467 MandyManners
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com…]
Ahmadinejad holocaust denial rhetoric is repulsive. OTOH
en.wikipedia.org
Can you explain why hasn’t the Iranian regime executed every Jew who lives in Iran?
| 482 |
Nimed Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:49:32pm |
re: #477 MandyManners
I’m sure you’ll take it personally when I tell you to go fuck yourself.
In fact, I hope you will.
lol. QED
| 483 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:49:57pm |
I’m sorry, but I really LOVE this commercial. It just makes me laugh.
| 484 |
Dr. Shalit Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:51:07pm |
When a First Draft of a Story from Reuters favors the US or Israeli take on a story, I will know things have changed. Until then, regarding Reuters, there is NO Pravda in Izvestia - and Vice Versa. -S-
| 485 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:51:21pm |
re: #479 KDS1
I don’t think any arab would dare to intimidate you in Tel Aviv in the late 70’s.
Oooo a member of the tribe! Welcome KDS :)
We were sooooo lucky. We got to climb the Sinai at sunset when we still had it. Wow!
| 486 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:53:17pm |
re: #481 Nimed
Ahmadinejad holocaust denial rhetoric is repulsive. OTOH
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]Can you explain why hasn’t the Iranian regime executed every Jew who lives in Iran?
Well there’s about 25-30,000 still left, or was at the time Shortshit became pres.
| 487 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:53:38pm |
re: #464 goddamnedfrank
So, is Hamas the sneak? or the lizard?
Your right, it was a big mistake to help new groups every time over and over again, when they all have the same purpose. The Fatah only want to kill all zionists . The Hamas want to kill and torture all zionists. Al-Qaeda want to kill, torture all zionists, take the land, and kill americans….
| 488 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:54:34pm |
re: #485 marjoriemoon
Oooo a member of the tribe! Welcome KDS :)
We were sooo lucky. We got to climb the Sinai at sunset when we still had it. Wow!
That must have been quite a sight. The few times I’ve climbed a high hill or low mountain the view has been spectacular. Of course its feels even better than the view actually is, because of the feeling of achievement that I feel after having made that climb.
| 489 |
Dr. Shalit Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:54:58pm |
| 490 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:55:54pm |
re: #481 Nimed
Ahmadinejad holocaust denial rhetoric is repulsive. OTOH
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]Can you explain why hasn’t the Iranian regime executed every Jew who lives in Iran?
Jews are tolerated as second class citizens. The problems arise when Jew throw off that yoke.
Muhammad, the founder of Islam, traveled to Medina in 622 A.D. to attract followers to his new faith. When the Jews of Medina refused to convert and rejected Muhammad, two of the major Jewish tribes were expelled; in 627, Muhammad’s followers killed between 600 and 900 of the men, and divided the surviving Jewish women and children amongst themselves
And from the Hadith.
“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).Sahih Muslim, 41:6985, see also Sahih Muslim, 41:6981, Sahih Muslim, 41:6982, Sahih Muslim, 41:6983, Sahih Muslim, 41:6984, Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:56:791,(Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:177)
This hadith, which explicitly calls for the killing of all Jews is quoted in the Hamas charter.
| 491 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:56:25pm |
re: #485 marjoriemoon
Oooo a member of the tribe! Welcome KDS :)
We were sooo lucky. We got to climb the Sinai at sunset when we still had it. Wow!
Nostalgie….
| 492 |
researchok Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:56:46pm |
re: #481 Nimed
Ahmadinejad holocaust denial rhetoric is repulsive. OTOH
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]Can you explain why hasn’t the Iranian regime executed every Jew who lives in Iran?
Because if they did that, they would lose their appearance of credibility.
Kind of like like American POW’ in Vietnam who, when filmed by their captors said they were well treated.
John McCain refused to make that video and paid dearly for it. He was tortured to within an inch of his life.
| 493 |
Nimed Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:56:55pm |
re: #478 Bagua
Are you aware of whats written in the Koran about Jews and the history?
Are you aware of some of the horrific stuff written in the Bible? Do you stand by the comparison between Mein Kampf and the Koran?
I’d love to see people here make a complete parallel between the Koran and Mein Kampf when CuriousLurker is around. You’ll have the opportunity to say to her face how the sacred book of her religion is just like Mein Kampf.
| 495 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:58:49pm |
re: #480 marjoriemoon
Yes, you Frank! Thanks for that. I’m gonna finish that article this weekend! I was reading it at work but kept getting distracted.
Hamas wasn’t really organized as such in the 70s. In fact, this may be silly, but I give a pass to naivety and “do anything for peace” prior to the Reagan, maybe even the Clinton administration, although he should have known better. Certainly after 2000, we really should know better.
I think we do know better, but we’re trapped by necessity. Like I said before, both Israel’s and our own interests are served by a policy that keeps us engaged. Reality isn’t fair, however what it costs us to stay engaged is a pittance in terms of direct aid. The real cost is in the military resources we have to dedicate, stage and operationally maintain to secure the flow of oil, which at the end of the day, is the real reason we put up with all this.
| 497 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 7:59:30pm |
re: #493 Nimed
Are you aware of some of the horrific stuff written in the Bible? Do you stand by the comparison between Mein Kampf and the Koran?
I’d love to see people here make a complete parallel between the Koran and Mein Kampf when CuriousLurker is around. You’ll have the opportunity to say to her face how the sacred book of her religion is just like Mein Kampf.
So we are back to “they are just like the Jews?”
Did you see my #490 above?
| 498 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:00:14pm |
re: #488 Dark_Falcon
That must have been quite a sight. The few times I’ve climbed a high hill or low mountain the view has been spectacular. Of course its feels even better than the view actually is, because of the feeling of achievement that I feel after having made that climb.
There’s a pass near St. Catherine Monestary. Now that’s a church and a half I must say. That wall is REALLY BIG.
Image: st-catherines-monastery-500.jpg
We got there about 3am so we could get to the top before sunrise (sorry I meant sunrise, not sunset). It was amazing. The Sinai is spectacular. You can’t tell by pictures.
| 499 |
Nimed Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:00:25pm |
re: #486 marjoriemoon
Well there’s about 25-30,000 still left, or was at the time Shortshit became pres.
marj, I’m not defendind the Iranian regime. My point is that comparisons to the Holocaust, of all things, should not be trivialized.
| 500 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:02:22pm |
re: #499 Nimed
marj, I’m not defendind the Iranian regime. My point is that comparisons to the Holocaust, of all things, should not be trivialized.
Did you read my comment #490 or not?
| 501 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:02:58pm |
re: #488 Dark_Falcon
While i was serving, i was stationed in the Hermon, and every time we went up their with an armored truck at 5-6 AM, we looked out to see the clouds lying beneath us like a blanket. It was colored with shades of red-orange-yellow, with the blue skies and some green fields beneath… the most beautiful sight ever….
| 502 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:03:16pm |
re: #499 Nimed
marj, I’m not defendind the Iranian regime. My point is that comparisons to the Holocaust, of all things, should not be trivialized.
Oh I agree with that! But it’s not trivializing it. Again, it’s history hon. The Nazi/Islam connections are very sadly and horribly real.
| 503 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:04:21pm |
re: #501 KDS1
While i was serving, i was stationed in the Hermon, and every time we went up their with an armored truck at 5-6 AM, we looked out to see the clouds lying beneath us like a blanket. It was colored with shades of red-orange-yellow, with the blue skies and some green fields beneath… the most beautiful sight ever…
Are you in Israel now? If you don’t mind the question.
| 504 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:05:09pm |
| 506 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:06:44pm |
| 507 |
Dr. Shalit Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:06:46pm |
re: #502 marjoriemoon
Oh I agree with that! But it’s not trivializing it. Again, it’s history hon. The Nazi/Islam connections are very sadly and horribly real.
marjoriemoon -
Let Us GO a step further and remind everyone how PERSIA got to be called “IRAN” - a/k/a/ - Land of the Aryans. Might have had something to do with the Nazi German Foreign Ministry, eh? -S-
| 508 |
Nimed Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:07:56pm |
re: #490 Bagua
re: #502 marjoriemoon
Oh I agree with that! But it’s not trivializing it. Again, it’s history hon. The Nazi/Islam connections are very sadly and horribly real.
Excuse marj, that’s a bit more vague than what is in question here. Do you think it’s fair to draw an equivalence between the Koran and Mein Kampf?
| 509 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:08:42pm |
re: #505 KDS1
BTW- thanks, i feel very welcomed.
Cool beans :) Glad you’re here.
I have some family in Tel Aviv and Petah Tikva but haven’t visited in far too long.
| 510 |
prairiefire Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:09:13pm |
| 511 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:09:50pm |
re: #509 marjoriemoon
Cool beans :) Glad you’re here.
I have some family in Tel Aviv and Petah Tikva but haven’t visited in far too long.
Its ok, you can come over. Its not really a war zone :)
| 512 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:10:52pm |
re: #510 prairiefire
Does it make you feel old, KDS1?
I’m pretty sure im younger then most of you… but i’m afraid the answer is yes.
It feels like ages ago.
| 513 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:11:58pm |
re: #508 Nimed
re: #502 marjoriemoon
Excuse marj, that’s a bit more vague than what is in question here. Do you think it’s fair to draw an equivalence between the Koran and Mein Kampf?
I’ve heard that. I haven’t read either book. Hitler was inspired by Islam and had a close relationship with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem so it wouldn’t be surprising. Certainly the Koran’s more violent portions.
I think we can safely say he wasn’t inspired by the Torah :)
| 514 |
Nimed Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:12:49pm |
re: #500 Bagua
Did you read my comment #490 or not?
Dude, do you want to play are we playing the quotes game? Don’t you think there’s all kinds of horrible stuff in the Old Testament? Calls to extermination of entire people, punishing the children for the sins of the father, and much, MUCH more?
It’s silly to base religious discrimination in scripture.
| 515 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:13:08pm |
re: #508 Nimed
re: #502 marjoriemoon
Excuse marj, that’s a bit more vague than what is in question here. Do you think it’s fair to draw an equivalence between the Koran and Mein Kampf?
The Koran is being used in the same manner as Mein Kampf, it debases Jews, holds Mohamed’s slaughter, enslavement and ethnic cleansing of the Jews as the example of a perfect man.
If it wasn’t being used as the basis for those calling for the extermination of the Jews, then it would just be another book and of no concern to me. It really depends upon the interpretation.
| 517 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:16:02pm |
re: #513 marjoriemoon
I’ve heard that. I haven’t read either book. Hitler was inspired by Islam and had a close relationship with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem so it wouldn’t be surprising. Certainly the Koran’s more violent portions.
I think we can safely say he wasn’t inspired by the Torah :)
Well, i think he wrote Mein Kampf before he knew the mufty, but im not sure. But he was very much affected by the hatred shown by muslims towards jews, and surely was influenced from many verses in the kuran.
| 518 |
Nimed Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:17:04pm |
re: #513 marjoriemoon
I’ve heard that. I haven’t read either book. Hitler was inspired by Islam and had a close relationship with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem so it wouldn’t be surprising. Certainly the Koran’s more violent portions.
I think we can safely say he wasn’t inspired by the Torah :)
Hitler trivially had much stronger ties with Christianity than with Islam, and he wasn’t exaclty shy about it. Take a look at this.
nobeliefs.com
Shall we conclude that the Bible is more similar to Mein Kampf than the Koran because Hitler was more fond of citing it?
| 519 |
prairiefire Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:17:22pm |
re: #512 KDS1
I’m pretty sure im younger then most of you… but i’m afraid the answer is yes.
It feels like ages ago.
Young at heart. You would have to be older than me to have your memories!
So you are older.
| 520 |
Varek Raith Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:18:14pm |
Heh.
A “whose holy book has the most messed up shit in it” discussion.
:)
| 521 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:20:00pm |
re: #514 Nimed
Dude, do you want to play are we playing the quotes game? Don’t you think there’s all kinds of horrible stuff in the Old Testament? Calls to extermination of entire people, punishing the children for the sins of the father, and much, MUCH more?
It’s silly to base religious discrimination in scripture.
Here we go with the equivalency with the Jews. But what you are missing is, no one is using those references to advocate exterminating the Muslims in the year 2010. Whereas hundreds of millions are using the Koran to advocate exterminating the Jews in 2010.
No one has been put to death by Jewish law in over 2,000 years. Executions according to Sharia law are common to this day. Even 2,000 years ago the Torah had been interpreted and softened to make the death penalty almost impossible. The Muslims are constantly massacring innocents in the name of the Koran.
You really know not of which you speak. Should Islam ever have the reformation that Curious Luker hopes for, then their documents will be reinterpreted. Until that time, there is a problem.
Using this Tu Quo Qou is really a poor argument and historically ridiculous.
| 522 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:20:12pm |
re: #514 Nimed
Dude, do you want to play are we playing the quotes game? Don’t you think there’s all kinds of horrible stuff in the Old Testament? Calls to extermination of entire people, punishing the children for the sins of the father, and much, MUCH more?
It’s silly to base religious discrimination in scripture.
She said New Testament, not Old Testament.
| 523 |
Nimed Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:20:36pm |
re: #515 Bagua
The Koran is being used in the same manner as Mein Kampf, it debases Jews, holds Mohamed’s slaughter, enslavement and ethnic cleansing of the Jews as the example of a perfect man.
If it wasn’t being used as the basis for those calling for the extermination of the Jews, then it would just be another book and of no concern to me. It really depends upon the interpretation.
Ok. Depending on what you mean exactly, I might agree with this statement. But many Muslims don’t use the Koran for the purposes you just described. To explicitely compare the two books is absurd.
| 524 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:20:42pm |
re: #150 WindUpBird
Jay Bellerose is my favorite. I love his style.
| 525 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:21:08pm |
re: #519 prairiefire
Young at heart. You would have to be older than me to have your memories!
So you are older.
Im just used to Cato and Steve crying about their age…
| 526 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:21:30pm |
re: #518 Nimed
Hitler trivially had much stronger ties with Christianity than with Islam, and he wasn’t exaclty shy about it. Take a look at this.
[Link: www.nobeliefs.com…]Shall we conclude that the Bible is more similar to Mein Kampf than the Koran because Hitler was more fond of citing it?
I think KDS has a better answer than I do. I don’t know about the books, but it’s no secret that he and the Mufti were close because of Jew hatred.
The Christians weren’t so great to the Jews either historically, but that’s another story and thankfully a chapter in history that’s pretty well closed.
| 527 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:21:39pm |
Jeeze! Are you guys figuring out shit to fight about?
| 528 |
Dr. Shalit Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:22:05pm |
re: #515 Bagua
The Koran is being used in the same manner as Mein Kampf, it debases Jews, holds Mohamed’s slaughter, enslavement and ethnic cleansing of the Jews as the example of a perfect man.
If it wasn’t being used as the basis for those calling for the extermination of the Jews, then it would just be another book and of no concern to me. It really depends upon the interpretation.
Bagua -
In which same case - Use the “Cranston Approach” to the Qua’ran as he used it to Mein Kampf. Pay NO ROYALTIES, and Publicize the Hell out of the Bigotry Contained Therein. With such treatment and without OIL, and the wealth derived therefrom, the Dar al Islam would have been confined, yea quarantined, to their area of the world, for many years. Comments? -S-
| 529 |
Varek Raith Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:22:09pm |
re: #527 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Jeeze! Are you guys figuring out shit to fight about?
Yes. Big whoop. Wanna fight about it?!?!
/
| 530 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:22:29pm |
re: #523 Nimed
Ok. Depending on what you mean exactly, I might agree with this statement. But many Muslims don’t use the Koran for the purposes you just described. To explicitely compare the two books is absurd.
Exactly, and there were better periods in history and Curious Lurker is an example of what may be possible for Islam if the moderates win the battle with the Islamists.
| 531 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:22:55pm |
re: #527 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Jeeze! Are you guys figuring out shit to fight about?
Thats what their paying us for.
| 532 |
Nimed Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:23:11pm |
re: #522 Dark_Falcon
She said New Testament, not Old Testament.
I’ve had this discussion many times before, and I always love this part. The Old Testament is part of the Bible, and it is in fact the part what Christianity largely shares with Judaism, give or take a book. Are you saying that the Old Testament is the bad stuff?
| 533 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:24:17pm |
re: #524 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Jay Bellerose is my favorite. I love his style.
Very descriptive of his style… The drummer from Alison Krauss and Robert Plant’s “Raising Sand” album.
| 534 |
prairiefire Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:25:18pm |
re: #532 Nimed
I’ve had this discussion many times before, and I always love this part. The Old Testament is part of the Bible, and it is in fact the part what Christianity largely shares with Judaism, give or take a book. Are you saying that the Old Testament is the bad stuff?
As a Christian, the Old Testament is rendered mute, literally. She has a valid question. Can you find verses supporting homicide as part of a religious interpretation in the New Testament?
| 535 |
Nimed Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:25:49pm |
re: #496 MandyManners
You give me BOOK, CHAPTER AND VERSE in the New Testament that tells Chritians to kill anyone.
Do it.
Do it now.
Should the Old Testament be excluded from the Bible? Can I take the parts I don’t like from the Koran too?
| 536 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:26:08pm |
re: #530 Bagua
Exactly, and there were better periods in history and Curious Lurker is an example of what may be possible for Islam if the moderates win the battle with the Islamists.
What are moderate muslims? Im really asking what is in your opinion a moderate muslim…
| 537 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:29:27pm |
re: #517 KDS1
Well, i think he wrote Mein Kampf before he knew the mufty, but im not sure. But he was very much affected by the hatred shown by muslims towards jews, and surely was influenced from many verses in the kuran.
You are correct. Hitler wrote Mein Kampf in 1924 while imprisoned for his failed putsch (coup) at Munich’s largest beer hall. The Grand Mufti did not meet Hitler till 1941.
Of note about the failed coup was that its titular leader was former general Erich Ludendorff, former chief of staff of the German army (his actual title was Quartermaster General, but he was Hindenburg’s chief of staff). A book I recently was given by family called The Age of Total Warfare by H.W. Koch shows Hitler together with Ludendorff and the other putsch leaders. Only Hitler and one other man are in civilian attire, and two of the men (including Lundendorff) are wearing the spiked helmet called a pickelhauben.
| 538 |
Dr. Shalit Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:29:29pm |
re: #536 KDS1
What are moderate muslims? Im really asking what is in your opinion a moderate muslim…
KDS -
According to Qua’ran, Hadith, Sira, etc. - an “APOSTATE!” I pray nightly for hundreds, thousands and millions of them - People Like You and Me. -S-
| 539 |
Nimed Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:30:12pm |
re: #534 prairiefire
As a Christian, the Old Testament is rendered mute, literally. She has a valid question. Can you find verses supporting homicide as part of a religious interpretation in the New Testament?
I’m sorry dear, that’s just not true, at least for everybody. I was raised as a Catholic and remember plenty of readings from the Old Testament in Mass.
| 540 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:31:35pm |
re: #537 Dark_Falcon
You are correct. Hitler wrote Mein Kampf in 1924 while imprisoned for his failed putsch (coup) at Munich’s largest beer hall. The Grand Mufti did not meet Hitler till 1941.
Of note about the failed coup was that its titular leader was former general Erich Ludendorff, former chief of staff of the German army (his actual title was Quartermaster General, but he was Hindenburg’s chief of staff). A book I recently was given by family called The Age of Total Warfare by H.W. Koch shows Hitler together with Ludendorff and the other putsch leaders. Only Hitler and one other man are in civilian attire, and two of the men (including Lundendorff) are wearing the spiked helmet called a pickelhauben.
Hey, i have 98 in History (you know, Israel history…), dont you think i know that?
| 541 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:31:50pm |
re: #535 Nimed
Should the Old Testament be excluded from the Bible? Can I take the parts I don’t like from the Koran too?
I don’t want to step on my Christian friend’s toes, but the Old Testament isn’t the same as the Torah. Similar in parts, but not the same. We also have many other books, including the oral teachings, the Talmud which are explanations or scholarly interpretations of the Torah and things having to do with “lifestyle”, like justice, the food you eat, humane treatment of animals, agriculture and such. So from a Jewish perspective, it’s very different.
| 542 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:32:46pm |
re: #532 Nimed
I’ve had this discussion many times before, and I always love this part. The Old Testament is part of the Bible, and it is in fact the part what Christianity largely shares with Judaism, give or take a book. Are you saying that the Old Testament is the bad stuff?
Why make this dishonest equivalency between a 3,500 year old document that makes references that were dated 2,500 years ago, and a book that is being cited to call for violence all over the world in the year 2010?
You have no concept of the oral law, of the thousands of years of interpretations and history. It is a bizarre game you are playing.
If the Muslims reinterpret their book in a way that doesn’t encourage tens of thousands of murders all over the world, no one will care what is written there. The fact is, murder, bombings, wars and slaughter are occurring all over the world by people who reference the Koran.
| 543 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:33:51pm |
re: #540 KDS1
Hey, i have 98 in History (you know, Israel history…), dont you think i know that?
I was mostly using your statement to expound upon something I had found of interest; Namely the Nazis desire to appropriate military symbols and heroes to justify and advance their cause.
| 544 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:35:28pm |
re: #525 KDS1
Im just used to Cato and Steve crying about their age…
I don’t cry, I boast.
If you don’t get the nookie I’m getting when you’re my age, you have my leave to cry.
| 545 |
prairiefire Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:35:30pm |
re: #539 Nimed
No. Jesus stated that he was replacing the Old Law. His blood is the new sacrament. The stories in the OT are like fables.
| 546 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:36:34pm |
re: #536 KDS1
What are moderate muslims? Im really asking what is in your opinion a moderate muslim…
Muslims who live in peace with their neighbours and don’t advocate murder and terrorism. Muslims who oppose the Islamist. I think there are many moderate Muslims, but they don’t speak up much.
| 547 |
Nimed Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:37:42pm |
re: #492 researchok
Because if they did that, they would lose their appearance of credibility.
Kind of like like American POW’ in Vietnam who, when filmed by their captors said they were well treated.
John McCain refused to make that video and paid dearly for it. He was tortured to within an inch of his life.
That comparison is absurd. Please read this article.
nytimes.com
| 548 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:38:24pm |
re: #546 Bagua
Muslims who live in peace with their neighbours and don’t advocate murder and terrorism. Muslims who oppose the Islamist. I think there are many moderate Muslims, but they don’t speak up much.
How about Noni Darwish? Aayan Ali Hirsi and Bridget Gabrielle?
| 549 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:38:56pm |
re: #537 Dark_Falcon
Right. And it is wrong to say that European anti-Semitism came from the Koran or Muslims. There are thousands of years of European anti-Semitism that are entirely separate from the Muslims.
| 550 |
Dr. Shalit Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:39:29pm |
Everyone -
Let’s go like this - Judaism has evolved over thousands of years, Christianity over more or less two thousand years, Islam, the religion of the disinherited Hagar and Ishmael is a mere 1400 years old. re: #546 Bagua
Muslims who live in peace with their neighbours and don’t advocate murder and terrorism. Muslims who oppose the Islamist. I think there are many moderate Muslims, but they don’t speak up much.
- That is Because THEY are scared “POOPLESS” - and I cannot entirely blame the. -S-
| 551 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:39:59pm |
re: #538 Dr. Shalit
KDS -
According to Qua’ran, Hadith, Sira, etc. - an “APOSTATE!” I pray nightly for hundreds, thousands and millions of them - People Like You and Me. -S-
Yeah, but according to the jewish religion, im not exactly a jew. I also do not believe in many of the things related to religion in general. I still consider myself as a jew, and i can enjoy every single “privilege” reserved for a “real” jew - marrying as a jew, divorce as a jew, if i came from another country i would have been accepted under the return rule… So im considered a jew, but a secular jew. I cant see this happening for muslims. I know very few arabs (all here in Israel), living quite a secular lives. But some of them are condemned,as you said, they are apostates in the eyes of the muslim majority. Its a very demanding religion. It seems like if you dont perform it to the smallest details, your not a muslim anymore…
| 552 |
prairiefire Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:40:01pm |
re: #546 Bagua
Muslims who live in peace with their neighbours and don’t advocate murder and terrorism. Muslims who oppose the Islamist. I think there are many moderate Muslims, but they don’t speak up much.
I think many of them carry on as law abiding citizens in the UK, Netherlands, and France. Why should you have to hear from them?
| 553 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:41:33pm |
re: #543 Dark_Falcon
I was mostly using your statement to expound upon something I had found of interest; Namely the Nazis desire to appropriate military symbols and heroes to justify and advance their cause.
I was kidding. Actually you made some very interesting points.
| 554 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:42:34pm |
| 555 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:42:37pm |
re: #544 Cato the Elder
I don’t cry, I boast.
If you don’t get the nookie I’m getting when you’re my age, you have my leave to cry.
Now you sound even older.
| 556 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:43:22pm |
re: #551 KDS1
Yeah, but according to the jewish religion, im not exactly a jew. I also do not believe in many of the things related to religion in general. I still consider myself as a jew, and i can enjoy every single “privilege” reserved for a “real” jew - marrying as a jew, divorce as a jew, if i came from another country i would have been accepted under the return rule… So im considered a jew, but a secular jew. I cant see this happening for muslims. I know very few arabs (all here in Israel), living quite a secular lives. But some of them are condemned,as you said, they are apostates in the eyes of the muslim majority. Its a very demanding religion. It seems like if you dont perform it to the smallest details, your not a muslim anymore…
My family in Israel isn’t religious, but secular in America is different from secular in Israel. Secular in Israel is far more “Jewish” than secular in the states.
But I’m hearing from you that it’s more of a cultural thing than a religious thing for you. Well it is for me heh.
| 557 |
Nimed Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:43:31pm |
re: #542 Bagua
Why make this dishonest equivalency between a 3,500 year old document that makes references that were dated 2,500 years ago, and a book that is being cited to call for violence all over the world in the year 2010?
You have no concept of the oral law, of the thousands of years of interpretations and history. It is a bizarre game you are playing.
If the Muslims reinterpret their book in a way that doesn’t encourage tens of thousands of murders all over the world, no one will care what is written there. The fact is, murder, bombings, wars and slaughter are occurring all over the world by people who reference the Koran.
Damn it Bagua, it’s always the same with you. This whole thing started with a comparison between Mein Kampf and the Koran. THE BOOKS THEMSELVES. NOT THE USE PEOPLE MAKE OF THEM.
This is what the discussion is about. Get this basic stuff right before making all kinds of idiotic accusations.
| 558 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:44:24pm |
re: #548 marjoriemoon
How about Noni Darwish? Aayan Ali Hirsi and Bridget Gabrielle?
I don’t even need them. 2 to 4 times a week I eat at my favourite restaurants. One is owned by a Syrian the other by Lebanese. Very nice people and most certainly moderates.
The Syrian in particular is very religious and often says “God bless you” and other similar things to me in Arabic which I understand. Most definitely a moderate.
| 559 |
prairiefire Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:44:36pm |
| 560 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:45:35pm |
re: #558 Bagua
I don’t even need them. 2 to 4 times a week I eat at my favourite restaurants. One is owned by a Syrian the other by Lebanese. Very nice people and most certainly moderates.
The Syrian in particular is very religious and often says “God bless you” and other similar things to me in Arabic which I understand. Most definitely a moderate.
I meant the politically outspoken ones. 3. There are 3. There ya go.
And all wimmins!
| 561 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:45:58pm |
re: #458 Nimed
Not at all. I think your implicit comparison between the Koran and Mein Kampf goes way too far.
You’re right, but only halfway so.
The anti-Semitic passages in the Koranare cherry-picked both by Islamic Jew-haters and those who want to portray all Muslims as anti-Semites. This is not to deny that they’re there and that they mean what they say.
All I was saying is: those who focus on those passages are likely to have as much idea about what the total content of the book is as the Germans who never read more than two pages of Mein Kampf.
Many soi-disant Christians keep a Bible in a prominent place on their shelves, but I would like to see them take a Bible quiz and pass.
In Germany, Mein Kampf became the book that was presented to young couples at their wedding in place of the Bible at civil ceremonies. I’ve seen many of these wedding volumes on the shelves of elderly Germans who keep it only as a remembrance of the day. You cannot conclude anything about them from the presence of the book.
Likewise, I know for a fact that although it is incumbent upon “good Muslims” to know their holy book, many of them keep it at home as a kind of fetish or talisman and never look into it. The passages with which they are familiar are those that are repeated day after day in the mosques.
Curious Lurker, if she were here on this thread, might be able to shed some light on this.
But if the Koran verses and the ahadith that are constantly quoted against the Jews are ripped out of context, that is not the fault of the hearers, but of the quoters.
| 562 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:47:05pm |
re: #556 marjoriemoon
My family in Israel isn’t religious, but secular in America is different from secular in Israel. Secular in Israel is far more “Jewish” than secular in the states.
But I’m hearing from you that it’s more of a cultural thing than a religious thing for you. Well it is for me heh.
I suppose that in another country you feel the need to preserve your traditions (not necessarily the religion), at least more then here…Maybe because here its all around you.
| 563 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:47:30pm |
| 564 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:48:10pm |
re: #562 KDS1
I suppose that in another country you feel the need to preserve your traditions (not necessarily the religion), at least more then here…Maybe because here its all around you.
Yes, exactly.
| 565 |
prairiefire Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:48:38pm |
re: #563 Dark_Falcon
Here’s some good news:
Latest drone attack in northwest Pakistan kills 13
Islamists go BOOM!
I don’t think that theater is under McChrystal, correct?
| 566 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:50:30pm |
| 567 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:54:30pm |
re: #558 Bagua
I don’t even need them. 2 to 4 times a week I eat at my favourite restaurants. One is owned by a Syrian the other by Lebanese. Very nice people and most certainly moderates.
The Syrian in particular is very religious and often says “God bless you” and other similar things to me in Arabic which I understand. Most definitely a moderate.
I know there are lots of muslims that seems very secular to you, yet muslim. But they are not muslim if you ask the muslims in the arab countries.
I guess its more of a self definition, and more a matter of interpretation. I just had this thought- if your not religious enough, your not muslim, but if you are religious enough, its almost impossible to be moderate. Which is obviously not true…
I think i found my definition
| 568 |
prairiefire Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:54:42pm |
re: #566 Dark_Falcon
Well, he has a lot on his shoulders. It seems like paring the enemy down with a knife, layer by layer.
| 569 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:54:59pm |
re: #557 Nimed
Damn it Bagua, it’s always the same with you. This whole thing started with a comparison between Mein Kampf and the Koran. THE BOOKS THEMSELVES. NOT THE USE PEOPLE MAKE OF THEM.
This is what the discussion is about. Get this basic stuff right before making all kinds of idiotic accusations.
First off, your discussion is with Cato who made the comparison, not I. I am giving you some perspective of what he is talking about, it is not my hypothesis.
How the book is used is crucial. I care nothing about what is written in books that are not used to justify things I find abhorrent, like suicide bombing, killing gays, ethnically cleansing huge countries of Jews, and so forth. If I didn’t see people holding up the Koran and screaming “Death to the Jews, Death to America,” I would care less what is written in it.
Many of those people can’t even understand the book they recite by heart as it isn’t in their language. The interpretation and how it is used is everything. The Sufis for example appear to be peace loving and mystical, my Syrian friend clearly uses the Koran in a noble manner. Curious Lurker is another example, in their hands, the Koran is a good thing.
| 570 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:55:41pm |
re: #560 marjoriemoon
I meant the politically outspoken ones. 3. There are 3. There ya go.
And all wimmins!
Wimmins rule!
| 571 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:59:10pm |
| 572 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:59:17pm |
re: #567 KDS1
I know there are lots of muslims that seems very secular to you, yet muslim. But they are not muslim if you ask the muslims in the arab countries.
I guess its more of a self definition, and more a matter of interpretation. I just had this thought- if your not religious enough, your not muslim, but if you are religious enough, its almost impossible to be moderate. Which is obviously not true…
I think i found my definition
[Video]
I’ve been among very religious Muslims who were very gentle and kind. I know the difference between secular and religious and I’ve seen that video several times since it was recorded.
| 573 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 8:59:44pm |
re: #568 prairiefire
Well, he has a lot on his shoulders. It seems like paring the enemy down with a knife, layer by layer.
That’s exactly what it is. Right now, the drone strikes are grinding the Taliban under. The attrition of their leadership is crippling them.
| 574 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 9:02:03pm |
re: #572 Bagua
I’ve been among very religious Muslims who were very gentle and kind. I know the difference between secular and religious and I’ve seen that video several times since it was recorded.
I think this is the first debate with a clear conclusion…
| 575 |
prairiefire Fri, Jun 11, 2010 9:03:05pm |
re: #558 Bagua
Are the Syrians glamorous? The few I have known have been quite flashy and beautiful. Well groomed and dapper.
| 576 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 9:05:15pm |
re: #575 prairiefire
Are the Syrians glamorous? The few I have known have been quite flashy and beautiful. Well groomed and dapper.
Just watch “Zohan” - who owns the barber shops and cosmetics?
| 577 |
Nimed Fri, Jun 11, 2010 9:08:39pm |
re: #561 Cato the Elder
Well, that was a fine post (and I had no idea that Mein Kampf was used in civil weddings).
I agree with the assertion that a large share of believers and ideologues commit atrocities in the name of texts they have never read or understood. You have made a similar, and in my view correct, point regarding Nietzsche the other day — perhaps it should have occurred to me that was what you meant when I read your comment.
| 578 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 9:08:55pm |
re: #571 KDS1
[Link: encyclopediadramatica.com…]
WTF is that?
And now for something completely different??
| 579 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 9:11:14pm |
re: #575 prairiefire
Are the Syrians glamorous? The few I have known have been quite flashy and beautiful. Well groomed and dapper.
I only know this one couple so I can’t generalise. I know they are very expressive of hospitality and kindness. I hope there are a lot more like them. I’ve known numerous Moroccans, Tunisians and Algerians who were artistic, cultured and very good company. So I’m a bit favourably biased and have been quite comfortable in their company. I’ve also been assaulted more than once by angry Arabs, so I’m not naive either.
| 581 |
Nimed Fri, Jun 11, 2010 9:16:25pm |
re: #569 Bagua
First off, your discussion is with Cato who made the comparison, not I.
If you think so, why did you interfere in 478 explicitly quoting my reply to Cato?
How the book is used is crucial. I care nothing about what is written in books that are not used to justify things I find abhorrent, like suicide bombing, killing gays, ethnically cleansing huge countries of Jews, and so forth. If I didn’t see people holding up the Koran and screaming “Death to the Jews, Death to America,” I would care less what is written in it.
And I agreed with you here. This is my point, in fact — looking for the root causes of religious violence and discrimination in sacred texts is more or less a red herring. Not that there’s not plenty of material in said books to justify it, but because religious institutions always had a way of highlighting what they like and ignoring what they don’t.
Many of those people can’t even understand the book they recite by heart as it isn’t in their language. The interpretation and how it is used is everything. The Sufis for example appear to be peace loving and mystical, my Syrian friend clearly uses the Koran in a noble manner. Curious Lurker is another example, in their hands, the Koran is a good thing.
Exactly. Let me know in which hands the Mein Kampf has ever been a good thing.
| 582 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jun 11, 2010 9:21:21pm |
| 583 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 9:24:56pm |
re: #581 Nimed
If you think so, why did you interfere in 478 explicitly quoting my reply to Cato?
I asked you a question and the chat developed from there.
And I agreed with you here. This is my point, in fact — looking for the root causes of religious violence and discrimination in sacred texts is more or less a red herring. Not that there’s not plenty of material in said books to justify it, but because religious institutions always had a way of highlighting what they like and ignoring what they don’t.
Yes I agree, that is my point as well. It is actions that count, which is why interpretation and conduct is so important. If there was ever a reformation in Islam as Curious Lurker hopes for, (along with the rest of us) then it will become a very different book.
Exactly. Let me know in which hands the Mein Kampf has ever been a good thing.
That is a good point.
| 584 |
KDS1 Fri, Jun 11, 2010 9:25:02pm |
| 585 |
prairiefire Fri, Jun 11, 2010 9:25:45pm |
re: #579 Bagua
No, not naive. I do find Wahabi thought dangerous. I find the ME exotic, extant, and beautiful.
| 586 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 9:26:45pm |
re: #584 KDS1
You too, im off to sleep…
nice to meet!
You go to sleep at 7:30am? I though I was a night owl…
| 587 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 9:27:55pm |
re: #585 prairiefire
No, not naive. I do find Wahabi thought dangerous. I find the ME exotic, extant, and beautiful.
Me too. None of the people I knew were Wahabist as far as I know.
| 588 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 9:32:47pm |
| 589 |
prairiefire Fri, Jun 11, 2010 9:33:36pm |
re: #587 Bagua
Me too. None of the people I knew were Wahabist as far as I know.
The Saudi chick who shot daggers at me with her eyes was Wahabi. I heard a story of an oil worker from a Christian oil worker colleague who was matryed in Saudi Arabia.
They are dead serious.
| 590 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 9:38:53pm |
re: #589 prairiefire
The Saudi chick who shot daggers at me with her eyes was Wahabi. I heard a story of an oil worker from a Christian oil worker colleague who was matryed in Saudi Arabia.
They are dead serious.
We are on the same page when it comes to the hateful Islamists.
| 591 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 9:45:13pm |
re: #577 Nimed
Well, that was a fine post (and I had no idea that Mein Kampf was used in civil weddings).
I agree with the assertion that a large share of believers and ideologues commit atrocities in the name of texts they have never read or understood. You have made a similar, and in my view correct, point regarding Nietzsche the other day — perhaps it should have occurred to me that was what you meant when I read your comment.
Don’t get me started on Nietzsche and the abuse of him by everyone from the Nazis to Ayn Rand (who was not intellectually worthy to tie his shoelaces).
Are you aware that one of his most famous books, Der Wille zur Macht (“The Will to Power”) was never written by him?
His sister Elisabeth, who was a certified proto-Nazi, cobbled it together from scraps, odds and ends, and bits taken from his notebooks, after he went silent.
That book is as much “by Nietzsche” as the apocrypha are “by Jesus”.
Nietzsche despised European anti-Semitism from his deepest soul. Elisabeth went off and married another proto-Nazi, Bernhard Förster, and tried to found an Aryan utopia in Paraguay - the inbred results of which can still be seen today.
Nietzsche himself, while still lucid, condemned his sister and her fraudulent husband in terms that will not bear repeating.
Once he was safely non compos mentis she pieced together “Wille” and later became a favorite Nazi pet. He is still cursing her from his grave to hers.
Nietzsche was not a philosopher so much as a prophet. He did not shrink from the evil that he saw on its way to confound and destroy humanity. But neither did he embrace it.
An analogous case of misconstrual and loss of credibility can be seen in what Capt. Sir Richard Burton’s Catholic wife did with his papers after he died.
How do I know all this? In my long career as translator, I have more than once been called upon to render into English some of his more obscure works. And I am heir (through a Nietzsche scholar whose work surpasses mine as the son does a candle) to the complete works in the critical edition published by de Gruyter. Let no one (not even Mr. Noone) take up the cudgels with me over Nietzsche. I merely flick my little finger, the one with the long nail.
| 593 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 9:53:32pm |
re: #591 Cato the Elder
Thank you for that information, Cato. I knew none of it before today. Favorited, and thank you again.
| 594 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jun 11, 2010 9:58:14pm |
re: #593 Dark_Falcon
Thank you for that information, Cato. I knew none of it before today. Favorited, and thank you again.
Oh, that is just the start of what I know. Feel free to ask for details.
| 596 |
Bob Dillon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 10:22:33pm |
Back in the old days (NAM), when a company I helped found, were “stringers” for ABC news, we had the authority to edit out anything we felt might be “over the top” from the days film received in Bangkok from Saigon for developing and transmitting to NY for that evenings newscast consumption in the US.
I remember editing out the actual moments of a protestor cutting off his thumb. We transmitted the moments leading up to the act - to the protestor holding up his hand later (sans thumb) wrapped in a bloody rag with his dismembered thumb lying on his chopping block in front of him.
Other than stuff like that we transmitted the film as the cameramen sent it to us.
| 597 |
Bob Dillon Fri, Jun 11, 2010 10:32:01pm |
re: #594 Cato the Elder
Oh, that is just the start of what I know. Feel free to ask for details.
I wish I were more broadly educated. I don’t even know a proper in depth question to ask, Cato.
(But sticking around here and poking in once and a while when there is time is truly educational)
What languages do you translate?
| 598 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Jun 11, 2010 10:39:33pm |
| 599 |
Eclectic Infidel Fri, Jun 11, 2010 11:00:14pm |
re: #517 KDS1
Well, i think he wrote Mein Kampf before he knew the mufty, but im not sure. But he was very much affected by the hatred shown by muslims towards jews, and surely was influenced from many verses in the kuran.
Surely? Now why do you suppose Adolf Hitler would have even picked up the Holy Qu’ran? Being a history geek, I’d be very interested in any sources you have that suggest or even argue that Hitler was influenced by the Muslim holy book.
| 600 |
Bagua Sat, Jun 12, 2010 12:14:40am |
re: #591 Cato the Elder
Fascinating. That certainly challenges the usual narrative.
| 601 |
Dom Sat, Jun 12, 2010 5:58:47am |
I’ll add that a lot of reports on the BBC website present as jaundiced a vision as anyone’s and are published without attribution. If the BBC was still the master of neutrality that wouldn’t matter, but those days are very long gone.
| 602 |
Romantic Heretic Sat, Jun 12, 2010 11:26:27am |
Define ‘questionable sources’ if you would please.
I regard ‘journalists linked to Islamic extremism’ as questionable as those coming from the IDF and the Likudnicks.
Both have agendas to advance. Both, in my opinion, are not too fussy about what they are willing to do to advance that agenda.
Oh, and Cato? I hold one thing that Nietzsche wrote very close to my heart.
Beware when you battle monsters,
lest you become a monster.
And as you gaze into the abyss,
the abyss gazes also,
into you.
I wish more people thought that way.
| 603 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jun 12, 2010 2:41:55pm |
re: #602 Romantic Heretic
Define ‘questionable sources’ if you would please.
I regard ‘journalists linked to Islamic extremism’ as questionable as those coming from the IDF and the Likudnicks.
Oh, bullshit.
Click the link. The “journalist” who took these pictures is a hardcore Islamist advocate who promotes jihad causes all over the world. He talks openly about his support for Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Taliban.
I’m amazed you would even try to deny it.
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