Sharron Angle: ‘People Are Looking Toward Those 2nd Amendment Remedies’

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New GOP Senate candidate from Nevada Sharron Angle is back in the news, after a radio interview surfaced in which she suggested that it might be time for an armed insurrection.

MP3 Audio

You know, our Founding Fathers, they put that Second Amendment in there for a good reason and that was for the people to protect themselves against a tyrannical government. And in fact, you know, Thomas Jefferson said it’s good for a country to have a revolution every 20 years.

I hope that’s not where we’re going, but, you know, if this, this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies, they’re saying my goodness what can we do to turn this country around? And I’ll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out.

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271 comments
1 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:17:11pm

The new Patriotism™. Locked and loaded.

2 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:17:57pm
I’ll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out.

Really poor choice of words after bringing up the 2nd Amendment...

3 Crimsonfisted  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:18:15pm

Take him OUT?? Vegas-speak? Sopranos-speak? Sheesh. I want Harry gone but......

4 Boogberg  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:20:26pm

Please God, make the lunacy stop.

5 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:21:24pm

These people are not just dangerously crazy, they are dangerously over-confident:
I met a gun nut a while back who was seriously convinced that a .50 Barrett rifle (like the one he is saving for) could take out a Bradley fighting vehicle, knock it over on its side in fact. He did concede that it wouldn't penetrate tank armor, but was sure he could cut the tracks. Good thing this never occurred to the Iraqi army.

6 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:21:38pm

re: #2 JasonA

Really poor choice of words after bringing up the 2nd Amendment...

I don't think it was a poor choice at all.

Crazy fucking shit.

7 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:21:42pm

Uh-huh.

A rant about the Second Amendment (in which I honestly believe and of which I am a beneficiary, with my own full-sized gun safe containing multiple firearms for hunting, plinking, and self-defense) ends in a call to "take someone out"?

No one could possibly misconstrue that. Nossir. Carry on.

8 Sionainn  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:22:07pm

If it's any consolation, I refuse to vote for her.

9 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:22:33pm

This is sort of like a death threat isn't it?

Or by "take out" does she mean she wants to invite Harry Reid over to her place for a nice glass of wine, some dancing a maybe a trip to third base....

10 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:23:01pm

re: #5 Shiplord Kirel

These people are not just dangerously crazy, they are dangerously over-confident:
I met a gun nut a while back who was seriously convinced that a .50 Barrett rifle (like the one he is saving for) could take out a Bradley fighting vehicle, knock it over on its side in fact. He did concede that it wouldn't penetrate tank armor, but was sure he could cut the tracks. Good thing this never occurred to the Iraqi army.

he's going to be very disappointed

11 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:23:31pm

re: #5 Shiplord Kirel

I'd heard the Bradley was actually performing above expectations in terms of taking hits.

That .50 caliber rifle has been in too many computer games, it's gotten all fetishized.

12 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:24:13pm

Sharron Angle's Freudian slip is showing.

Expect more.

13 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:24:18pm

re: #9 jamesfirecat

This is sort of like a death threat isn't it?

Or by "take out" does she mean she wants to invite Harry Reid over to her place for a nice glass of wine, some dancing a maybe a trip to third base...


I positive she means kill Harry....how else could one take it?
NOT

14 elizajane  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:24:59pm

Are they really saying "my goodness" and not "m gdnss"?
Harry Reid: the happiest man in Washington.

15 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:25:34pm

In fairness, I note that the audio clip ends rather abruptly, and it's possible she said something more after "take Harry Reid out."

16 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:26:06pm

re: #11 Obdicut

I'd heard the Bradley was actually performing above expectations in terms of taking hits.

That .50 caliber rifle has been in too many computer games, it's gotten all fetishized.

it's the Big One...wait til this guy starts buying rounds for it to practice killing Bradleys

17 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:26:46pm

re: #15 Charles

In fairness, I note that the audio clip ends rather abruptly, and it's possible she said something more after "take Harry Reid out."

... for coffee and a danish?

18 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:28:50pm

re: #15 Charles

In fairness, I note that the audio clip ends rather abruptly, and it's possible she said something more after "take Harry Reid out."

True. She's still promoting that "water the tree of liberty" lunacy.

19 TedStriker  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:29:22pm

re: #11 Obdicut

I'd heard the Bradley was actually performing above expectations in terms of taking hits.

That .50 caliber rifle has been in too many computer games, it's gotten all fetishized.

Don't be dissing the Barrett .50 cals...they happen to be made about 30-40 miles from where I sit and they're a client of the company I work for.

Besides, for anti-materiel and anti-personnel hits at a mile or better, few match them.

;-P

20 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:29:36pm

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.
Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;
Forward into battle see His banners go!

for the TP, JBS, neoCon, Barret shooting revos

21 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:29:52pm

re: #18 Gus 802

True. She's still promoting that "water the tree of liberty" lunacy.

That's what I was thinking Gus...

22 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:30:11pm

I would like to think that this is just election year hype, but I can't really say I do.

23 TedStriker  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:30:13pm

re: #17 oaktree

... for coffee and a danish?

A bong and a blintz?

/Goldmember

24 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:30:47pm

re: #19 talon_262

I'm just saying apparently some greasy survivalist types think they equal godmode and if the Wolverines had had one they would have taken out the whole Soviet Army.

25 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:31:04pm

re: #22 brookly red

I would like to think that this is just election year hype, but I can't really say I do.

it's a new paradigm...watch your back and your seeds

26 Boogberg  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:31:53pm

Monsanto!

27 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:32:25pm

This guy won the Nevada GOP primary? Looks like Reid has little to worry about with regards to his incumbency. Great job, GOP.

28 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:32:37pm

re: #26 Boogberg

Monsanto!

Trilateral Commission!

29 Ming  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:32:38pm

I have to wonder how many Republicans get turned on by these women warriors.

Sarah Palin and Sharron Angle, shooting dinner for the menfolk. You betcha.

Assuming Ms. Angle's first language is English, the phrase "take Harry Reid out", right after a reference to guns, is inexcusable.

I don't know which is scarier: when the left goes after Israel, or when some on the right "talk tough". I'm almost used to the left's craziness by now, but the right has a lunacy that may be even worse.

30 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:33:12pm

This is not protected speech. This is incitement to riot. She should and could be arrested for this.

31 Kragar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:33:24pm

People who enjoy quoting the Founding Fathers on revolution and armed insurrection always seem to forget the innovations in firearms that have been made since the Revolutionary War.

32 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:34:08pm

re: #30 Fozzie Bear

This is not protected speech. This is incitement to riot. She should and could be arrested for this.

don't get so carried away...you may end up sounding like her

33 TedStriker  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:34:28pm

re: #24 Obdicut

I'm just saying apparently some greasy survivalist types think they equal godmode and if the Wolverines had had one they would have taken out the whole Soviet Army.

I'll agree to that...the Barrett rifles are but few of many tools for military and LEO use, but they're tools racist and survivalist wackos never really need to get their hands on.

34 Boogberg  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:34:49pm

re: #28 albusteve

Trilateral Commission!

Bilderboogers!

35 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:34:52pm

re: #31 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And the huge innovations in Military Doctrine.

36 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:35:27pm

re: #32 albusteve

don't get so carried away...you may end up sounding like her

No, if I had said that someone should shoot her for saying this, that would be sounding like her.

I'm simply noting that incitement to riot is NOT constitutionally protected speech.

37 Nimed  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:35:38pm

re: #15 Charles

In fairness, I note that the audio clip ends rather abruptly, and it's possible she said something more after "take Harry Reid out."

Good point. She actually said "And I’ll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out to dinner.

She added "That's when I plan to shoot him."

38 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:35:55pm

re: #31 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And that if you're rising up to throw off the government, you don't really need to cite justification from the Constitution to do so. It's not like the Second Amendment was so that the militia could overthrow the legislative branch when necessary.

39 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:36:02pm

re: #34 Boogberg

Bilderboogers!

Assassini!

40 TedStriker  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:36:20pm

re: #27 Slumbering Behemoth

This guy won the Nevada GOP primary? Looks like Reid has little to worry about with regards to his incumbency. Great job, GOP.

The next time anyone sees Angle or any of the Nevada GOP muckety-mucks on TV, see if there are smoking craters the size of Texas where their feet used to be...

41 Kragar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:36:38pm

re: #35 Slumbering Behemoth

And the huge innovations in Military Doctrine.

A slight difference between a line of men firing muzzle loader and preparing to launch a bayonet charge versus fully automatic weapons and over the horizon artillery.

42 Boogberg  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:37:21pm

re: #39 albusteve

Assassini!

Ass ass ini?

43 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:37:26pm

re: #37 Nimed

Good point. She actually said "And I’ll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out to dinner.

She added "That's when I plan to shoot him."

/I know a great clam hose in Sheepshead Bay... the cherrystones are to die for.

44 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:37:50pm

re: #43 brookly red

Joe's? Randazzo's?

45 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:38:24pm

cute kitten wearing a hat

Liveleak Video
46 TedStriker  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:38:28pm

re: #41 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

A slight difference between a line of men firing muzzle loader and preparing to launch a bayonet charge versus fully automatic weapons and over the horizon artillery.

And rifles that trained snipers can use to take your ass out at a mile or more out, such as the Barretts many of those tools fap over...

47 Sionainn  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:39:04pm

re: #15 Charles

In fairness, I note that the audio clip ends rather abruptly, and it's possible she said something more after "take Harry Reid out."

It does sound like it got cut off (and to get the full interview, I'd have to pay to join Lars Larson's site...not going to happen), but even if we leave that out, she did indeed say "if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies and saying my goodness what can we do to turn this country around?" I can't imagine what other Second Amendment "remedies" there are other than starting shooting.

48 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:39:10pm

re: #44 lawhawk

Joe's? Randazzo's?

Umberto's

49 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:40:08pm

re: #46 talon_262

And rifles that trained snipers can use to take your ass out at a mile or more out, such as the Barretts many of those tools fap over...

a Barrett is not likely to cause much damage with an amateur shooter...they'd be better of with a .308 or whatever

50 Kragar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:40:29pm

re: #38 Obdicut

And that if you're rising up to throw off the government, you don't really need to cite justification from the Constitution to do so. It's not like the Second Amendment was so that the militia could overthrow the legislative branch when necessary.

I always read it as The Government will be unable to respond in the event of an immeadiate threat, so citizens have the right to arm themselves for their own defense. The militia aspect made sense in a frontier nation and when communication could take days to alert authorities, nowadays, not so much.

51 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:40:43pm

re: #48 brookly red

Umberto's

is there an Eco around here?

52 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:40:52pm

re: #23 talon_262

A bong and a blintz?

/Goldmember

A pipe and a crape?

53 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:42:22pm

re: #50 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Yeah. It's just so painfully obvious that the second amendment isn't a "BTW it's cool to overthrow the government/take up arms against the government". It makes no logical sense. It's boggle-boggling.

I support personal firearm possession-- with licenses, training, and all that kind of good stuff, just like cars or heavy equipment-- but the people who think the 2nd amendment has any bearing to the citizenry's relationship with the government just make me laugh.

54 Kragar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:43:11pm

re: #49 albusteve

a Barrett is not likely to cause much damage with an amateur shooter...they'd be better of with a .308 or whatever

Simo Hayha laughes at your Barrett.

55 Kragar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:43:56pm

re: #52 jamesfirecat

A pipe and a crape?

Schmoke und a pancake?

56 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:43:59pm

re: #46 talon_262

And rifles that trained snipers can use to take your ass out at a mile or more out, such as the Barretts many of those tools fap over...

Bolded for the important part...

57 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:44:16pm

re: #37 Nimed

Good point. She actually said "And I’ll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out to dinner.

She added "That's when I plan to shoot him."

And after I've done that, I'll take the photo I shot of him to get developed at one of the 24 hour places which are going out of business. That's way I'll have something to remember him buy after I unload on him...


(This is fun, I think I've seen a sketch like this before but I can't remember where)

58 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:44:27pm

re: #54 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Simo Hayha laughes at your Barrett.

war of the rats?

59 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:44:35pm

re: #52 jamesfirecat

A pipe and a crape?

I'm Dutch! Isn't that weird?

60 freetoken  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:45:39pm

BTW, if you check out Murdoch's hate site, FoxNation, and their article on what Rep. King said about Obama, the comments are everything you'd expect from a hate site. As bad or worse than Geller, Buchanan, or even VDARE.

Don't know why more people won't call out Murdoch for operating a hate site as such. There are Fox apologists here, I've run into them.

61 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:46:18pm

re: #58 albusteve

war of the rats?

Wrong "War" so to speak. War of the Rats was Stalingrad wasn't it? Simo Hayha was a Finish sniper who currently has the record for most recorded kills I believe at around 500....

62 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:46:39pm

re: #49 albusteve

a Barrett is not likely to cause much damage with an amateur shooter...they'd be better of with a .308 or whatever

Hi Steve...My Son was a SAW gunner for the 3/5th Marines and liberated Fallujah...
He has great videos of the Marines just shooting the hell out of Terrorists...I don't know much about weapons..But never mess with the Marines..America's Finest!

63 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:46:59pm

re: #60 freetoken

Don't know why more people won't call out Murdoch for operating a hate site as such. There are Fox apologists here, I've run into them.

Well if he won't apologize someone has to...

64 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:47:24pm

re: #60 freetoken

Check out this one:

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

65 Kragar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:47:29pm

re: #58 albusteve

war of the rats?

Russo-Finnish war. 705 confirmed kills in 100 days using a bolt action rifle with iron sights. Russians called him the White Death.

66 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:48:04pm

re: #61 jamesfirecat

Wrong "War" so to speak. War of the Rats was Stalingrad wasn't it? Simo Hayha was a Finish sniper who currently has the record for most recorded kills I believe at around 500...

yes, it was just a guess...War of the Rats is a terrific book, then made into a movie

67 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:48:09pm

She is just this side of criminal incitement with that "take Harry Reid out" shit.

68 Nimed  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:48:22pm

re: #36 Fozzie Bear

No, if I had said that someone should shoot her for saying this, that would be sounding like her.

I'm simply noting that incitement to riot is NOT constitutionally protected speech.

This is clearly not incitement.

It bugs me that, whenever something that people considered outrageous is said, someone always brings up sedition, incitement, etc.

69 TedStriker  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:48:39pm

re: #49 albusteve

a Barrett is not likely to cause much damage with an amateur shooter...they'd be better of with a .308 or whatever

I agree, but the racist/survivalist tools Obdicut was talking about tend to crave high-grade hardware like this. Don't get me wrong...I'd love to go out to NM or somewhere with lots of open spaces and squeeze off a few rounds with a Barrett or other .50 cal rifle, just to say I did it, but longing to own one isn't the end-all-be-all for me.

Hell, I don't even own a handgun (yet), though the family armory includes a .22, a .30/30, and a double-barreled 12 gauge.

70 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:49:04pm

re: #65 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Russo-Finnish war. 705 confirmed kills in 100 days using a bolt action rifle with iron sights. Russians called him the White Death.

705 in 100 days?...sounds nearly impossible, but I believe you

71 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:49:23pm

re: #69 talon_262

I would not have the urge to actually carry the Barrett from one place to another, that's for sure.

72 Boogberg  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:49:44pm

re: #67 Spare O'Lake

She is just this side of criminal incitement with that "take Harry Reid out" shit.

Charles addressed that. The audio was cut off abruptly.

73 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:49:56pm

re: #68 Nimed

This is clearly not incitement.

It bugs me that, whenever something that people considered outrageous is said, someone always brings up sedition, incitement, etc.

Sounds like a dog whistle to me.

74 Kragar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:50:10pm

re: #70 albusteve

705 in 100 days?...sounds nearly impossible, but I believe you

"In temperatures between −40 and −20 degrees Celsius, dressed completely in white camouflage, Häyhä was credited with 505 confirmed kills of Soviet soldiers,[2][4] 542 if unconfirmed deaths are included.[4] The unofficial Finnish front line figure from the battlefield of Kollaa places the number of Häyhä's sniper kills over 800.[5] A daily account of the kills at Kollaa was conducted for the Finnish snipers. Besides his sniper kills, Häyhä was also credited with over two hundred kills with a Suomi KP/-31 submachine gun, thus bringing his credited kills to at least 705.[4] Remarkably, all of Häyhä's kills were accomplished in fewer than 100 days with a very limited amount of daylight per day."

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

75 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:50:16pm

re: #68 Nimed

This is clearly not incitement.

It bugs me that, whenever something that people considered outrageous is said, someone always brings up sedition, incitement, etc.

Why does it bug you? It was fairly close to the line, wasn't it?

76 freetoken  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:50:51pm

re: #64 Obdicut

Yes, but those are not as nasty as appear on the FoxNation site when they run articles on Obama, or any minority person.

77 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:51:37pm

re: #62 HoosierHoops

Hi Steve...My Son was a SAW gunner for the 3/5th Marines and liberated Fallujah...
He has great videos of the Marines just shooting the hell out of Terrorists...I don't know much about weapons..But never mess with the Marines..America's Finest!

my BinL has 6-8 big photo albums of his three VN tours...lots of blood and guts if your into that stuff...his combat pics could have won an award...actual VC in the pics...he was Army

78 Nimed  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:53:25pm

re: #73 JasonA

Sounds like a dog whistle to me.

I'm sure it is. But courts tend to stay from mind reading, and with good reason.

79 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:53:26pm

re: #76 freetoken

Well, that's fucking insane, since those comments were about as foul as I can conceive of without just using a goulash of racial slurs.

80 Kragar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:53:30pm

I miss my SAW sometimes. It was a good gun.

81 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:53:46pm

re: #74 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

"In temperatures between −40 and −20 degrees Celsius, dressed completely in white camouflage, Häyhä was credited with 505 confirmed kills of Soviet soldiers,[2][4] 542 if unconfirmed deaths are included.[4] The unofficial Finnish front line figure from the battlefield of Kollaa places the number of Häyhä's sniper kills over 800.[5] A daily account of the kills at Kollaa was conducted for the Finnish snipers. Besides his sniper kills, Häyhä was also credited with over two hundred kills with a Suomi KP/-31 submachine gun, thus bringing his credited kills to at least 705.[4] Remarkably, all of Häyhä's kills were accomplished in fewer than 100 days with a very limited amount of daylight per day."

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

darn! what were the rest of the Finns doing?

82 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:53:48pm

re: #61 jamesfirecat

Wrong "War" so to speak. War of the Rats was Stalingrad wasn't it? Simo Hayha was a Finish sniper who currently has the record for most recorded kills I believe at around 500...

There's a "Cracked" for that.

83 TedStriker  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:54:03pm

re: #71 Obdicut

I would not have the urge to actually carry the Barrett from one place to another, that's for sure.

Not to mention the huge price tags for the rifle and its ammo...last I heard, a civilian-spec Barrett 82A1 (in .418 Barrett) was about 7-8 grand or more brand new.

84 Nimed  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:55:10pm

re: #75 Spare O'Lake

Why does it bug you? It was fairly close to the line, wasn't it?

Because it always sound a bit like "I don't like what this person said, therefore there ought to be a law that would prohibit people from saying it."

85 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:55:59pm
And I’ll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out.

So...uhh...would that be by exercising your second amendment rights? Is this a plea for someone to shoot Harry Reid or for people to vote for her? I'm very confused in that I can't tell the difference...do you think it was meant that way?

86 TedStriker  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:56:03pm

re: #83 talon_262

Whoops, meant "a civilian-spec Barrett 82A1 (in .416 Barrett)"

PIMF...

87 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:56:07pm

re: #69 talon_262

I agree, but the racist/survivalist tools Obdicut was talking about tend to crave high-grade hardware like this. Don't get me wrong...I'd love to go out to NM or somewhere with lots of open spaces and squeeze off a few rounds with a Barrett or other .50 cal rifle, just to say I did it, but longing to own one isn't the end-all-be-all for me.

Hell, I don't even own a handgun (yet), though the family armory includes a .22, a .30/30, and a double-barreled 12 gauge.

last year I was at the range walking along without my phones on and I thought a grenade went off behind me...blew my ears away and felt this thud go through me...looked over my shoulder and it was a Barrett...loud beyond belief...he had 30-40 rounds to play with at 400yrds....not too impressed...there were a lot of benches empty next to him

88 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:56:41pm

re: #81 brookly red

Trying to keep up.

This is Finland Vs. USSR:

Finish losses:

5,904 dead or missing
43,557 wounded
1,000 captured
957 civilians in air raids
20–30 tanks
62 aircraft

USSR losses:

126,875 dead or missing
188,671 wounded
5,572 captured
3,543 tanks
261–515 aircraft


The Finns were, bar none, the badasses of WWII.

89 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:56:47pm

re: #53 Obdicut

Yeah. It's just so painfully obvious that the second amendment isn't a "BTW it's cool to overthrow the government/take up arms against the government". It makes no logical sense. It's boggle-boggling.

I support personal firearm possession-- with licenses, training, and all that kind of good stuff, just like cars or heavy equipment-- but the people who think the 2nd amendment has any bearing to the citizenry's relationship with the government just make me laugh.

Licensing? Asking government's permission to exercise a right?

90 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:57:12pm

re: #81 brookly red

Probably wondering where all the dead commies were coming from.

91 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:57:35pm

re: #75 Spare O'Lake

Why does it bug you? It was fairly close to the line, wasn't it?

no, I don't think so

92 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:57:59pm

re: #89 MandyManners

Licensing? Asking government's permission to exercise a right?

No. Demonstrating responsibility in order to exercise a right.

Are you seriously against gun licenses?

93 Boogberg  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:59:07pm

re: #85 ausador

So...uhh...would that be by exercising your second amendment rights? Is this a plea for someone to shoot Harry Reid or for people to vote for her? I'm very confused in that I can't tell the difference...do you think it was meant that way?

The audio was cut off prematurely. Damn!

94 Kragar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:59:16pm

re: #88 Obdicut

Trying to keep up.

This is Finland Vs. USSR:

Finish losses:

5,904 dead or missing
43,557 wounded
1,000 captured
957 civilians in air raids
20–30 tanks
62 aircraft

USSR losses:

126,875 dead or missing
188,671 wounded
5,572 captured
3,543 tanks
261–515 aircraft


The Finns were, bar none, the badasses of WWII.

Russians invade a country full of hunters fighting in their home territory, under the conditions they're used to, what could possibly go wrong?

95 KDS1  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:59:16pm

re: #88 Obdicut

Trying to keep up.

This is Finland Vs. USSR:

Finish losses:

5,904 dead or missing
43,557 wounded
1,000 captured
957 civilians in air raids
20–30 tanks
62 aircraft

USSR losses:

126,875 dead or missing
188,671 wounded
5,572 captured
3,543 tanks
261–515 aircraft

The Finns were, bar none, the badasses of WWII.

They were known for many years for their toughness... I didn't know they were such pro's as well...

96 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 1:59:29pm

re: #80 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I miss my SAW sometimes. It was a good gun.

I'd love to mess around with one....I've never shot full auto, it's kind of a dream I've had...man I would go nuts with an old Thompson....yeeehaaa!...I envy you guys

97 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:00:29pm

re: #92 Obdicut

No. Demonstrating responsibility in order to exercise a right.

Are you seriously against gun licenses?

I am.

Requiring gun-safety courses before you get to buy your first gun? No problem.

Registering guns? Big problem.

98 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:00:32pm

re: #84 Nimed

Because it always sound a bit like "I don't like what this person said, therefore there ought to be a law that would prohibit people from saying it."

Is it not funny how talking about the 2nd amendment will always lead into the 1st...

99 Kragar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:01:26pm

re: #89 MandyManners

Licensing? Asking government's permission to exercise a right?

The license I filled out for my pistol was basically me certifying that I was not a felon, and did not have any mental health issues I was currently being treated for.

100 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:01:27pm

re: #5 Shiplord Kirel

These people are not just dangerously crazy, they are dangerously over-confident:
I met a gun nut a while back who was seriously convinced that a .50 Barrett rifle (like the one he is saving for) could take out a Bradley fighting vehicle, knock it over on its side in fact. He did concede that it wouldn't penetrate tank armor, but was sure he could cut the tracks. Good thing this never occurred to the Iraqi army.

They just don't put enough emphasis on basic Physics in the schools anymore. A rifle that would flip a Bradley would likely shear a person's shoulder and firing arm clean off.

The Barrett would be nice to have, but impractical for an insurgency. All .50 BMG ammo is hideously expensive, heavy, loud, and the good rounds (armor penetrating pyrophoric) are highly restricted. Chasing high caliber is a fools errand. A takedown lever action .22 like the Marlin 39-A would actually make a better choice for an insurgency, because no ragtag militia is going to outrange or outgun the military.

101 KDS1  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:01:32pm

re: #96 albusteve

I'd love to mess around with one...I've never shot full auto, it's kind of a dream I've had...man I would go nuts with an old Thompson...yeeehaaa!...I envy you guys

I shot all kinda stuff while in the army, but never a handgun...

102 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:01:55pm

re: #97 Cato the Elder

I am.

Requiring gun-safety courses before you get to buy your first gun? No problem.

Registering guns? Big problem.

And that big problem is what, exactly?

103 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:01:56pm

re: #92 Obdicut

No. Demonstrating responsibility in order to exercise a right.

Are you seriously against gun licenses?

Yes, I do.

You don't have a right to drive a car. You do have a right to own a gun.

104 KDS1  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:03:00pm

How easy is it it to own a gun in the U.S?

105 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:04:18pm

re: #102 Obdicut

And that big problem is what, exactly?

Because it's a constitutional right.

106 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:04:28pm

re: #101 KDS1

I shot all kinda stuff while in the army, but never a handgun...

I've shot all kind of stuff to, all civilian...some of the ARs and other spinoffs, pistols of all sorts, but never got to rock and roll

107 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:04:33pm

Congratulations on your re-election win, Senator Reid.

108 TedStriker  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:04:56pm

re: #89 MandyManners

Licensing? Asking government's permission to exercise a right?

While I'm not a fan of gun registration, licensing owners (like TN and other states do for CCW) is a compromise...shooters get (at the very least) basic firearms safety training and the states get to run background checks to keep from allowing the mentally ill and felons to legally possess firearms.

However, I recognize that only goes so far...anyone who wants to get a gun in America, legal or not, will find a way to get one.

109 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:05:16pm

re: #106 albusteve

I've shot all kind of stuff to, all civilian...some of the ARs and other spinoffs, pistols of all sorts, but never got to rock and roll

I like shotguns.
And swords.
:)

110 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:05:53pm

re: #103 MandyManners

Well okay then.

I think that's a wildly impractical point of view that ignores

A) The differences in technology between the arms of Revolutionary America and now. A single man with a musket was not a large threat to civil order or law enforcement. Now a single man with a gun is.

B) The fact that the militia is referenced in the 2nd amendment. I actually think gun ownership is an individual, not a collective right, but you still have to account for the militia language.

C) Your argument actually grants the government shitloads of power, if they can make rules regarding anything we don't have an explicit right spelled out for in the Constitution.

111 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:06:06pm

re: #104 KDS1

How easy is it it to own a gun in the U.S?


Acquiring from dealers

Provided that federal law and the laws of both the dealer's and purchaser's states and localities are complied with:
An individual 21 years of age or older may acquire a handgun from a dealer federally licensed to sell firearms in the individual's state of residence[2].
An individual 18 years of age or older may purchase a rifle or shotgun from a federally licensed dealer in any state. However, the applicant may not purchase a pistol gripped long gun that does not have a shoulder stock until he or she is 21 years of age.
It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer a firearm unless the federal firearms licensee receives notice of approval from a prescribed source approving the transfer.
Sale of a firearm by a federally licensed dealer must be documented by a federal form 4473, which identifies and includes other information about the purchaser, and records the make, model, and serial number of the firearm. Sales to an individual of multiple handguns within a five-day period require dealer notification to the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. Violations of dealer record keeping requirements are punishable by a penalty of up to $1000 and one year's imprisonment.
An individual holding a Curio and Relics License (officially a Type 03 Federal Firearms License (FFL); also called a C&R) may directly purchase firearms that are 50 or more years old from anyone AND any firearm officially recognized by the BATFE as a Curio and Relic (C&R).


[edit]Sales between individuals

Federal law allows the sale of a long gun or a handgun between private parties of the same state as long as the purchaser is 18 years of age. An individual who does not possess a federal firearms license may not sell a modern firearm to a resident of another state without first transferring the firearm to a dealer in the purchaser's state.[3] Firearms received by bequest or intestate succession are exempt from those sections of the law which forbid the transfer, sale, delivery or transportation of firearms into a state other than the transferor's state of residence.[3] Likewise, antique firearms are exempt from these sections of the law in most states. (Antique firearms are defined as those manufactured pre-1899 by US federal law, or modern replicas thereof that do not use cartridges. State law definitions on antique firearms vary considerably from state to state.)

112 TedStriker  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:06:23pm

re: #100 goddamnedfrank

They just don't put enough emphasis on basic Physics in the schools anymore. A rifle that would flip a Bradley would likely shear a person's shoulder and firing arm clean off.

The Barrett would be nice to have, but impractical for an insurgency. All .50 BMG ammo is hideously expensive, heavy, loud, and the good rounds (armor penetrating pyrophoric) are highly restricted. Chasing high caliber is a fools errand. A takedown lever action .22 like the Marlin 39-A would actually make a better choice for an insurgency, because no ragtag militia is going to outrange or outgun the military.

Agreed, because those rifles and ammo are plentiful and cheap.

113 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:06:32pm

re: #104 KDS1

How easy is it it to own a gun in the U.S?

very easy...for shotguns and rifles, a day or so wait...handguns usually a bit longer...depends on the state, especially regarding CC laws

114 Kragar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:06:41pm

re: #105 Cato the Elder

Because it's a constitutional right.

But its illegal for certain citizens to own firearms, such as convicted felons or those with certain mental conditions. How would you keep them from purchasing or owning firearms legally?

115 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:07:00pm

re: #105 Cato the Elder

Because it's a constitutional right.

How is the right to bear arms limited by requiring those arms be registered?

Is our right to free speech infringed by requiring a copy of every book published be given to the Library of Congress?

116 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:07:19pm

re: #2 JasonA

Really poor choice of words after bringing up the 2nd Amendment...

I'm always somewhat concerned with the number of people who do not seem to understand that the right to keep and bear arms does not imply or include the right to just go around shooting people because you feel like it.

117 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:08:07pm

re: #10 albusteve

he's going to be very disappointed

Not for long.

118 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:08:19pm

re: #97 Cato the Elder

CA is now moving to require registration of shotguns and rifles as well.

119 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:08:27pm

re: #112 talon_262

Agreed, because those rifles and ammo are plentiful and cheap.

every smart shooter has a .22mag stashed away

120 KDS1  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:08:49pm

re: #106 albusteve

I've shot all kind of stuff to, all civilian...some of the ARs and other spinoffs, pistols of all sorts, but never got to rock and roll

Yeah, only living thing i shot was a poor donkey...

121 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:08:51pm

re: #13 albusteve

I positive she means kill Harry...how else could one take it?
NOT

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, of course she doesn't mean that. She explicitly didn't say that, did she?

122 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:09:34pm

re: #88 Obdicut

Trying to keep up.

This is Finland Vs. USSR:

Finish losses:

5,904 dead or missing
43,557 wounded
1,000 captured
957 civilians in air raids
20–30 tanks
62 aircraft

USSR losses:

126,875 dead or missing
188,671 wounded
5,572 captured
3,543 tanks
261–515 aircraft

The Finns were, bar none, the badasses of WWII.

Those are the figures for the Winter War of 1939-40, before Germany attacked the Soviet Union. The Soviet forces, decimated by Stalin's purges and still completely subservient to militarily illiterate comissars, made every possible mistake and eventually defeated the Finns essentially by burying them under a mountain of Russian bodies.

During the Continuation War, when Finland aligned itself with the Germans in an attempt to recover their losses, the figures were much, much higher, with Finnish fatalities eventually reaching about 80,000 (2% of the 1939 population).

Finland also fought a third war during that brief period, the Lapland War of 1944-45. Having agreed to an armistice with the Soviets, the Finns were required to remove German forces from their territory. The Germans refused to move and had to be driven out over the northern border into Norway. This was the highest latitude major military campaign in history, with most of the fighting north of the Arctic circle.

123 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:09:58pm

re: #115 Obdicut

How is the right to bear arms limited by requiring those arms be registered?

Is our right to free speech infringed by requiring a copy of every book published be given to the Library of Congress?

Ultimately, registering guns has proved to be a huge waste of time and money. Canada and the UK have proved that for decades.

Gun control is a feel good proposition at best, one that has never worked. At some point even government has to deal with reality as distasteful as they may find it.

124 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:10:24pm

re: #37 Nimed

Good point. She actually said "And I’ll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out to dinner.

She added "That's when I plan to shoot him."

LOL!

125 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:10:30pm

re: #77 albusteve

my BinL has 6-8 big photo albums of his three VN tours...lots of blood and guts if your into that stuff...his combat pics could have won an award...actual VC in the pics...he was Army

I have a couple of GB's of pictures of Jordan in Iraq...I thought it might be a nice thing to put them in a photobucket account...Even the one with him in his underwear standing outside flexing his muscles..Goofy kid..Just like his pops...
I would not post any fire fights or dead bodies.

126 TedStriker  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:10:34pm

re: #109 Varek Raith

I like shotguns.
And swords.
:)

"There can be only one!"

/MacLeod

127 KDS1  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:10:47pm

re: #111 reine.de.tout

So basically, almost anyone can own a gun...

128 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:10:51pm

re: #109 Varek Raith

I like shotguns.
And swords.
:)

I've got a Stoeger 12ga...18in barrel, pistol grip, black matte pumper...a Benelli spinoff...I love it, noisy tho....BOOM!
home D is all

129 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:11:49pm

re: #117 SanFranciscoZionist

Not for long.

why?

130 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:11:57pm

re: #115 Obdicut

How is the right to bear arms limited by requiring those arms be registered?

Is our right to free speech infringed by requiring a copy of every book published be given to the Library of Congress?

My guns are legal. Legally bought, legally owned, legally stored (in excess of the laws pertaining to safe storage), legally used, legally carried, transported, and - in case of dire need only, because in my family the last things to be sold are real property and firearms - legally sold to legal buyers.

How many more laws do we need in case of misuse?

131 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:12:24pm

re: #118 Slumbering Behemoth

CA is now moving to require registration of shotguns and rifles as well.

that sucks..."papers please"

132 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:13:24pm

re: #89 MandyManners

Licensing? Asking government's permission to exercise a right?

Licensing. Notifying the government of your intent to exercise your right.

How the hell else do we know who to call up to that well-regulated militia?

133 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:13:38pm

re: #123 researchok

That we've done gun registration stupidly in the past doesn't mean there isn't a smart way to go about it.

A lot of forms of gun control are a total waste, I agree-- especially because criminals aren't very inclined to follow laws. But it's not a dichotomy; it doesn't mean all gun control is foolish. At the very least, I think you'd agree that violent felons shouldn't be allowed guns, right?

134 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:14:16pm

re: #104 KDS1

How easy is it it to own a gun in the U.S?

Not hard at all.

135 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:14:18pm

re: #121 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, of course she doesn't mean that. She explicitly didn't say that, did she?

no she didn't...she said take him out before the tape was cut off...don't be absurd...she's his political opponent and wants to take him out

136 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:14:19pm

re: #130 Cato the Elder


I'm sorry, could you attempt to answer the question?

In what way does registration limit the right to bear arms?

137 freetoken  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:14:59pm

re: #105 Cato the Elder

Because it's a constitutional right.

Umm, Cato, you can do better than that.

There are plenty of examples where rights listed in the Constitution have been limited in many ways.

Your right of free speech doesn't stop you city from keeping you using a bullhorn at night in your neighborhood to shout your opinions.

Your right to practice your religions doesn't stop the community/county from enforcing zoning ordinances on any religious-function site you may wish.

And so on.

138 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:15:22pm

re: #105 Cato the Elder

Because it's a constitutional right.

Its a constitutional right to bear arms, not an explicit right to do so without any oversight or regulation whatsoever.

139 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:15:43pm

re: #127 KDS1

So basically, almost anyone can own a gun...

Yes.

140 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:15:58pm

re: #129 albusteve

why?

I assume that once the tank notices him, there may be problems.

141 KDS1  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:16:38pm

re: #133 Obdicut

That we've done gun registration stupidly in the past doesn't mean there isn't a smart way to go about it.

A lot of forms of gun control are a total waste, I agree-- especially because criminals aren't very inclined to follow laws. But it's not a dichotomy; it doesn't mean all gun control is foolish. At the very least, I think you'd agree that violent felons shouldn't be allowed guns, right?

Not all violent and/or short tempered men have a criminal record, so how can you tell?

142 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:16:42pm

Registration of firearms is not an undue burden upon the citizens.

143 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:16:42pm

Family Guy on Second Amendement

Youtube Video
144 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:16:43pm

re: #135 albusteve

no she didn't...she said take him out before the tape was cut off...don't be absurd...she's his political opponent and wants to take him out

I'm not being absurd. Her words were very, very carefully chosen.

145 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:17:11pm

re: #140 SanFranciscoZionist

I assume that once the tank notices him, there may be problems.

*ping* *ping*

"Guys I think someone is shooting at us."

*BOOM*

"Ok problem solved."

146 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:17:18pm

re: #133 Obdicut

That we've done gun registration stupidly in the past doesn't mean there isn't a smart way to go about it.

A lot of forms of gun control are a total waste, I agree-- especially because criminals aren't very inclined to follow laws. But it's not a dichotomy; it doesn't mean all gun control is foolish. At the very least, I think you'd agree that violent convicted felons shouldn't be allowed guns, right?

FTFY. You don't have to be violent to be barred from owning a gun.

Felons are not legally entitled to own firearms. Period. Full stop.

Every gun I buy, I pass a background check. If I lie and obtain a gun otherwise than lawfully as a convicted felon, I would be subject to the harshest penalties. What additional laws are needed?

Come shooting with me someday and I'll explain it all to you.

147 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:18:05pm

re: #138 Fozzie Bear

Its a constitutional right to bear arms, not an explicit right to do so without any oversight or regulation whatsoever.

says who?...and what is oversight and regulation mean?...who are those guys?...why the hell don't we treat the 2nd like we treat the 14th?...no felons, that's it for oversight

148 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:18:56pm

re: #145 Fozzie Bear

*ping* *ping*

"Guys I think someone is shooting at us."

*BOOM*

"Ok problem solved."

Was that bird crap hitting the hull???
:shrugs:

149 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:19:03pm

re: #141 KDS1

Not all violent and/or short tempered men have a criminal record, so how can you tell?

How can I tell what?

150 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:19:07pm

re: #147 albusteve

says who?...and what is oversight and regulation mean?...who are those guys?...why the hell don't we treat the 2nd like we treat the 14th?...no felons, that's it for oversight

Because you can't shoot loaded illegal immigrants at people.

151 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:19:29pm

There are more functional firearms in the United States than there are people.

Good luck with the regulation part.

En plus, if I want to murder you, my preferred means is a stiletto, which, if regulated, I can make out of a table knife in six hours.

152 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:19:39pm

re: #147 albusteve

Oh Steve, there is no comparison to the 14th. We do have rules for citizens. Lots of 'em. Including 'registration'.

153 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:19:45pm

re: #144 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm not being absurd. Her words were very, very carefully chosen.

so you think this nationally known candidate wants to kill Harry?....hahahaha!...hahaha! very explicit eh?

154 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:21:38pm

re: #151 Cato the Elder

No one I've seen is talking about trying to get rid of the guns in the US, or even limit their number.

It would be nice if we could track their movements better.

Can you answer how the registration of guns impedes the right to bear arms?

155 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:22:14pm

re: #152 Obdicut

Oh Steve, there is no comparison to the 14th. We do have rules for citizens. Lots of 'em. Including 'registration'.

bullshit...the 14th is automatic...you're born here, you are a citizen...as for the 2nd, if you're not a felon it should be automatic

156 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:22:19pm

re: #153 albusteve

so you think this nationally known candidate wants to kill Harry?...hahahaha!...hahaha! very explicit eh?

What exactly do you think this means?

You know, our Founding Fathers, they put that Second Amendment in there for a good reason and that was for the people to protect themselves against a tyrannical government. And in fact, you know, Thomas Jefferson said it’s good for a country to have a revolution every 20 years.

I hope that’s not where we’re going, but, you know, if this, this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies, they’re saying my goodness what can we do to turn this country around?

Really... what the fuck does that mean? Is it that hard for you to see what she is saying?

157 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:22:40pm

re: #146 Cato the Elder

That's why I said 'at the very least', Cato. I don't actually think non-violent felons of many stripes should be barred from owning guns.

158 KDS1  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:22:44pm

re: #149 Obdicut

How can I tell what?

How can you tell he is violent? You want to prevent him from owning a gun, otherwise he might use it to assault someone rather then for protection. How can you really make sure that this person isn't going to shoot someone, say, for a parking space?

159 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:23:00pm

re: #155 albusteve

bullshit...the 14th is automatic...you're born here, you are a citizen...as for the 2nd, if you're not a felon it should be automatic

What should be automatic, Steve?

160 zora  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:23:18pm

re: #153 albusteve

i think a crack pot candidate says crazy shit to rile up the troops and to hell with what happens as a consequence. she is speaking english, yet you can't understand. i don't get that.

161 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:23:19pm

re: #158 KDS1

I said violent felon, dude. Not just violent.

162 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:23:25pm

re: #156 Fozzie Bear

Really... what the fuck does that mean? Is it that hard for you to see what she is saying?

you don't count anymore...
too bad

163 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:24:19pm

re: #159 Obdicut

What should be automatic, Steve?

gun ownership right up to C and C...why can't you get the simplest concepts?

164 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:25:03pm

re: #84 Nimed

Because it always sound a bit like "I don't like what this person said, therefore there ought to be a law that would prohibit people from saying it."

Yeah, but this IS an anonymous political blog, after all.

165 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:25:03pm

Steve, you are apparently incapable of reading between the lines. I don't believe you are as dumb as you pretend to be with regard to this. You know what she is saying, and you won't admit it.

166 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:25:05pm

re: #157 Obdicut

That's why I said 'at the very least', Cato. I don't actually think non-violent felons of many stripes should be barred from owning guns.

I do, it's a perfect place to draw the line...simple

167 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:25:18pm

re: #163 albusteve

gun ownership right up to C and C...why can't you get the simplest concepts?

How should ownership be automatic? Do we give babies weapons at birth, or what?

Maybe you can answer: How does requiring registration (like requiring a birth certificate be filed for a baby born in the US) limit the right to bear arms?

168 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:25:19pm

re: #103 MandyManners

Yes, I do.

You don't have a right to drive a car. You do have a right to own a gun.

Which confers the ability to jack a car. I don't really have a point.

re: #104 KDS1

How easy is it it to own a gun in the U.S?

Every state has their own rules. Here in California we have some of the most restrictive. To purchase a long arm you must pass a NICS background check (true in all states) and wait 10 days to pick up. You can't be guilty of any of these crimes, or be the subject of a current restraining order. If you want to purchase a handgun you also have to pass a short exam on firearm safety. You can only purchase one new firearm per month, but may purchase or transfer any number of used guns, provided the transfer is done legally.

There are ridiculous laws defining assault weapons, any semi-auto rifle with a detachable magazine and any of the following "evil features." Evil features are a protruding pistol grip, forward pistol grip, detachable magazine, grenade launcher attachment, flash suppresser attachment, or thumb hole stock. Any pistol, or centerfire rifle with a threaded barrel is an assault weapon, but rimfire rifles are curiously not covered by this, however as a practical matter getting a silencer in CA is impossible for a civilian. Pre ban machine guns are technically legal to possess in California, if your local CLEO will sign off on your application, or if you purchase through a gun trust. However technically there is no way to legally transfer a high capacity (>10 round) magazine. I hope this gets challenged soon. If you have a curio and relic license you can purchase and bring in C&R guns from out of state without additional restriction.

169 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:26:28pm

re: #167 Obdicut

How should ownership be automatic? Do we give babies weapons at birth, or what?

Maybe you can answer: How does requiring registration (like requiring a birth certificate be filed for a baby born in the US) limit the right to bear arms?

figure it out bone head...re read the thread

170 KDS1  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:26:34pm

re: #161 Obdicut

I said violent felon, dude. Not just violent.

Well, what if your not a felon, but you are violent and short tempered? You are still entitled to own a gun, and it is much more likely that you will use it even if not threatened...

171 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:27:03pm

re: #133 Obdicut

That we've done gun registration stupidly in the past doesn't mean there isn't a smart way to go about it.

A lot of forms of gun control are a total waste, I agree-- especially because criminals aren't very inclined to follow laws. But it's not a dichotomy; it doesn't mean all gun control is foolish. At the very least, I think you'd agree that violent felons shouldn't be allowed guns, right?

Suggestions?

172 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:27:48pm

re: #170 KDS1

What on earth does that have to do with what I was talking about?

173 Kragar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:28:20pm

re: #155 albusteve

bullshit...the 14th is automatic...you're born here, you are a citizen...as for the 2nd, if you're not a felon it should be automatic

So the guy with a history of depression, borderline schizophrenia and on several prescriptions for mental illness should be allowed to walk into his local sporting goods store and purchase a shotgun so he can fight the giant space monkeys who keep taunting him just because he isn't a felon?

Hmm, a background check and license might be helpful in that situation.

174 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:28:48pm

re: #171 researchok

Suggestions?

I actually have a bunch written down. Please remind me at a later date-- they're at home, not here on my work computer.

In the same way the tech of guns has improved, the tech of gun registration can be improved.

175 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:29:40pm

re: #170 KDS1

Well, what if your not a felon, but you are violent and short tempered? You are still entitled to own a gun, and it is much more likely that you will use it even if not threatened...

too bad...felonies involving guns are way too lenient...you fuck up with a gun you should do hard time...it's no joke to own a handgun

176 theheat  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:29:41pm

re: #29 Ming

It's popular enough, there are shirts for it. I don't know how the rest of us can so much as own a pistol and be real 'mericans, 'lest we subscribe to this kind of bullshit.
//

177 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:30:07pm

re: #169 albusteve

I can't figure it out, since there is no actual argument that has, or can be made, about how registration limits the right to bear arms. Because it doesn't, any more than requiring the registration of newborns limits either the right to have children or the right of those children to have citizenship.

178 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:31:11pm

re: #173 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So the guy with a history of depression, borderline schizophrenia and on several prescriptions for mental illness should be allowed to walk into his local sporting goods store and purchase a shotgun so he can fight the giant space monkeys who keep taunting him just because he isn't a felon?

Hmm, a background check and license might be helpful in that situation.

yes, I forgot that aspect of it...mentally deranged people should not own weapons...I have no beef with background checks and registration

179 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:31:39pm

re: #174 Obdicut

I actually have a bunch written down. Please remind me at a later date-- they're at home, not here on my work computer.

In the same way the tech of guns has improved, the tech of gun registration can be improved.

OK.

If all we are trying to do is track gun ownership, I might be inclined to agree with some kind of registration- as long as the law was written so that it could not be expanded upon to infringe on gun ownership rights.

It would have to be pretty tightly written, though.

180 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:32:26pm

re: #179 researchok

I agree, and moreover I'd say unless it was tightly written it would also be useless at the tracking part of it.

181 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:32:48pm

re: #177 Obdicut

I can't figure it out, since there is no actual argument that has, or can be made, about how registration limits the right to bear arms. Because it doesn't, any more than requiring the registration of newborns limits either the right to have children or the right of those children to have citizenship.

I never said there was, you are confusing me with someone else...and your tie in with citizenship is absurd

182 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:33:51pm

Congrats to the NV GOP primary voters for choosing somebody even worse than Harry Reid to represent them.

Well, I guess genuine congrats are in order for Harry Reid. 6 more years! sigh

183 Kragar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:34:06pm

re: #178 albusteve

yes, I forgot that aspect of it...mentally deranged people should not own weapons...I have no beef with background checks and registration

So how is the store owner supposed to know that the person coming in doesn't have a history unless there is some sort of authorized and tracked system in place to verify who can be certified as a responsible citizen, able to exercise their second amendment right?

184 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:34:21pm

re: #181 albusteve

I never said there was, you are confusing me with someone else...and your tie in with citizenship is absurd

You were the one that brought up the fourteenth, Steve.

You're not arguing honestly.

185 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:34:50pm

re: #180 Obdicut

I agree, and moreover I'd say unless it was tightly written it would also be useless at the tracking part of it.

A permanent bar code might be effective at the retail and even gun show level. Of course, criminals would remove them- but that is the nature of the beast.

186 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:34:55pm

re: #183 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So how is the store owner supposed to know that the person coming in doesn't have a history unless there is some sort of authorized and tracked system in place to verify who can be certified as a responsible citizen, able to exercise their second amendment right?

don't rightly know...deranged people should be databased I guess

187 theheat  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:35:26pm

re: #74 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Talk about a guy who found "his special purpose." That's amazing.

188 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:36:17pm

re: #172 Obdicut

What on earth does that have to do with what I was talking about?

I'm just guessing here...

189 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:36:30pm

I think people may be confusing Steve's position with Cato's. As much as I disagree with his 14th amendment views, I'm not seeing where he said licensing was bad. I think that was Cato.

190 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:37:13pm

I dunno I need more coffee.

191 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:37:27pm

re: #88 Obdicut

Trying to keep up.

This is Finland Vs. USSR:

Finish losses:

5,904 dead or missing
43,557 wounded
1,000 captured
957 civilians in air raids
20–30 tanks
62 aircraft

USSR losses:

126,875 dead or missing
188,671 wounded
5,572 captured
3,543 tanks
261–515 aircraft

The Finns were, bar none, the badasses of WWII.

Until they surrendered, of course it was at the beginning of the war when the Russian Officer Corps had been pretty much wiped out by Stalin and the Russian troops had no competent leadership. It was also during one of the harshest winters on record and the Russians were not equipped for the cold nor did they have any winter camouflage while the Finns had both in abundance.

Yes the Finns fought a heroic battle and stymied the Russian Juggernaut for a while, but they lost, as they had too when confronted by a nation with 1000 times their manpower in troops. Too bad Stalin refused to believe that Germany/Hitler would attack him and spent so much time doing their bidding to appease Germany.

If Russia had sided with the non-fascist allies the minute that Hitler's Germany invaded Poland (instead of dividing it with them) the war would have been over in less than a year probably.

192 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:37:28pm

re: #185 researchok

A permanent bar code might be effective at the retail and even gun show level. Of course, criminals would remove them- but that is the nature of the beast.

A clear way to immediately distinguish between a legal and illegal weapon is one of the key parts, definitely. As is pre-sale ballistic measurements. Seriously, I've got a bunch written on this, and I'll be more than happy to share it later.

193 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:37:43pm

re: #154 Obdicut

Can you answer how the registration of guns impedes the right to bear arms?

Easily.

My legal guns (meaning all of them) are already registered de facto in that their serial numbers are in a database, recorded at time of purchase, so, in case I misuse one for unlawful purposes, and the gun is found at the scene of the crime or otherwise discovered, its ownership can be traced back to me. This in turn requires me, if I have any sense, to sell any firearm legally, i.e. in Maryland, by taking the owner to any State Police office and registering the sale and transfer from me to the new owner, with serial number. It also strongly encourages me to report the loss or theft of any firearm to the police, in order to avoid being tied to a crime commited with that weapon.

But, the police cannot look up my name and social security number because I ran a red light and failed to timely pay the fine and ascertain that I own such-and-such in the way of firearms. That is what full gun registration entails.

Is that what you desire?

194 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:37:59pm

Does the US constitution confer the right to own an unlimited number of firearms?
What conceivable legitimate need is there for a person to own more than, say, a dozen firearms?

Two handguns
Two rifles
Two shotguns
One M-16
One Uzi
One Gatling Gun
One Howitzer
One RPG
One fountain pen gun

C'mon, let's be reasonable.
/

195 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:38:20pm

re: #184 Obdicut

You were the one that brought up the fourteenth, Steve.

You're not arguing honestly.

only with regard to expediency, not the principle of it...if you are not a felon or deranged, ownership should be automatic at that point, to do whatever you want with your handgun...if you conceal it fine, if you carry without concealing fine

196 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:39:38pm

re: #193 Cato the Elder

My legal guns (meaning all of them) are already registered de facto in that their serial numbers are in a database, recorded at time of purchase, so, in case I misuse one for unlawful purposes, and the gun is found at the scene of the crime or otherwise discovered, its ownership can be traced back to me.

So you don't actually have a problem with gun registration. Great. Glad it took us that long to get here.

197 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:40:35pm

re: #194 Spare O'Lake

Does the US constitution confer the right to own an unlimited number of firearms?
What conceivable legitimate need is there for a person to own more than, say, a dozen firearms?

Two handguns
Two rifles
Two shotguns
One M-16
One Uzi
One Gatling Gun
One Howitzer
One RPG
One fountain pen gun

C'mon, let's be reasonable.
/

the govt has no right to determine whats reasonable...if I want an entire arsenal, it is my constitutional right

198 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:42:32pm

re: #196 Obdicut

So you don't actually have a problem with gun registration. Great. Glad it took us that long to get here.

Just wanted to say great talk going on here. I'm not going to join with thoughts of my own, but I did want to thank you guys for the excellent discussion.

199 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:42:54pm

re: #197 albusteve

the govt has no right to determine whats reasonable...if I want an entire arsenal, it is my constitutional right

Really?

So you're fine with your neighbors owning an arsenal of RPGs, hand grenades, and AK-47s?

Let me see, I wonder how that would work if they were Arabic.

200 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:42:59pm

Cali doesn't just ban felons from owning guns, but also anybody convicted of these crimes, felony or misdemeanor:

Rape. Sodomy or oral copulation by force, violence, duress, menace, or threat of great bodily harm. Lewd acts on a child under the age of 14. Any felony punishable by death or imprisonment in the state prison for life. Any other felony in which the defendant inflicts great bodily injury on any person, other than an accomplice, that has been charged and proven, or any felony in which the defendant uses a firearm which has been charged and proven. Attempted murder. Assault with intent to commit rape or robbery. Assault with a deadly weapon or instrument on a peace officer. Assault by a life prisoner on a non-inmate. Assault with a deadly weapon by an inmate. Arson. Exploding a destructive device or any explosive with intent to injure or murder. Exploding a destructive device or any explosive causing great bodily injury. Robbery. Kidnapping. Taking of a hostage by a state prison inmate. Attempting to commit a felony punishable by death or imprisonment in the state prison for life. Any felony in which the defendant personally used a dangerous or deadly weapon. Escape from a state prison by use of force or violence. Assault with a deadly weapon or force likely to produce great bodily injury. Any attempt to commit any of the above crimes other than an assault. Assault upon a person with a firearm. Shooting at an inhabited dwelling house or occupied building. NOTE: This offense is committed even though no person was actually inside the specified structure at the time of the shooting. Drawing, exhibiting, or unlawfully using any handgun or firearm in a rude, angry, or threatening manner in the presence of a peace officer regardless of whether the firearm is loaded. Carjacking. Two or more convictions for drawing or exhibiting any firearm in a rude, angry, or threatening manner in the presence of another regardless of whether the firearm is loaded.

There are a whole host of other misdemeanors that will cost a person their gun rights for 10 years, they all seem eminently reasonable to me.

201 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:43:43pm

re: #196 Obdicut

So you don't actually have a problem with gun registration. Great. Glad it took us that long to get here.

You are being stupid on purpose.

202 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:44:03pm

re: #199 Gus 802

Really?

So you're fine with your neighbors owning an arsenal of RPGs, hand grenades, and AK-47s?

Let me see, I wonder how that would work if they were Arabic.

don't be a dope...we are talking legal firearms, not rocket launchers

203 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:44:55pm

re: #199 Gus 802

Really?

So you're fine with your neighbors owning an arsenal of RPGs, hand grenades, and AK-47s?

Let me see, I wonder how that would work if they were Arabic.

Of course if I chose to own guns as well, the dictum 'A armed society is a polite society' might rightly apply.

204 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:45:16pm

re: #201 Cato the Elder

You are being stupid on purpose.

No, I'm not, Cato. I'm sorry that you feel that way.

I want gun registration, not gun owner registration. If I had wanted gun owner registration, I would have said so.

205 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:45:32pm

re: #202 albusteve

don't be a dope...we are talking legal firearms, not rocket launchers

You were responding to a list that included "One Gatling Gun, One Howitzer, and One RPG." Not being a dope.

206 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:45:53pm

re: #203 researchok

That dictum is proved false in every 3rd world hellhole on earth.

207 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:46:12pm

re: #205 Gus 802

You were responding to a list that included "One Gatling Gun, One Howitzer, and One RPG." Not being a dope.

well....MY mistake then

208 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:46:38pm

re: #202 albusteve

don't be a dope...we are talking legal firearms, not rocket launchers

Well, the second amendment doesn't define what type of arms it is referring to. So, if you are going to strictly literally interpret it as some do, rocket launchers are constitutionally protected.

209 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:46:44pm

re: #206 Obdicut

That dictum is proved false in every 3rd world hellhole on earth.

so what? what's that got to do with the USA?

210 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:47:28pm

Steve do you seriously believe human nature is somehow different here than elsewhere?

211 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:47:35pm

re: #206 Obdicut

That dictum is proved false in every 3rd world hellhole on earth.

True.

But we are not a 3rd world hell hole. We have a lot to lose. They don't.

212 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:47:50pm

I want an M1A!
I want an F-18!
good grief

213 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:48:08pm

re: #205 Gus 802

You were responding to a list that included "One Gatling Gun, One Howitzer, and One RPG." Not being a dope.

Humourless too.

214 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:48:15pm

re: #208 Fozzie Bear

Well, the second amendment doesn't define what type of arms it is referring to. So, if you are going to strictly literally interpret it as some do, rocket launchers are constitutionally protected.

Many do.

215 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:48:49pm

re: #211 researchok

True.

But we are not a 3rd world hell hole. We have a lot to lose. They don't.

Sure. I just always get annoyed when I hear that phrase since it's so palpably untrue.

What makes us a 'polite society' is our laws, not our arms.

216 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:48:58pm

re: #212 albusteve

I want an M1A!
I want an F-18!
good grief

Me, I just want unlimited free pizza and burgers.

Aim high, I always say.

217 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:48:58pm

re: #214 Gus 802

Many do.

And that illustrates the absurdity of interpreting the second amendment in such a way.

218 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:49:33pm

re: #213 Spare O'Lake

Humourless too.

You want to make this personal? Again? Go for it.

219 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:49:35pm

re: #215 Obdicut

What makes us a 'polite society' is our laws, not our arms.

What makes us a 'polite society' is our laws, not our arms.

What makes us a 'polite society' is our laws, not our arms.

What makes us a 'polite society' is our laws, not our arms.

What makes us a 'polite society' is our laws, not our arms.

upding

220 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:49:36pm

re: #216 researchok

Me, I just want unlimited free pizza and burgers.

Aim high, I always say.

right, a 12ga cheeseburger

221 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:50:35pm

re: #210 Fozzie Bear

Steve do you seriously believe human nature is somehow different here than elsewhere?

Do you honestly believe American society and culture is somehow the same as everywhere else?

222 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:50:53pm

re: #206 Obdicut

That dictum is proved false in every 3rd world hellhole on earth.

The argument revolves around whether those societies are effectively armed, or if only certain segments of them are.

223 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:51:16pm

re: #199 Gus 802

Really?

So you're fine with your neighbors owning an arsenal of RPGs, hand grenades, and AK-47s?

Let me see, I wonder how that would work if they were Arabic.

What's wrong with someone owning an AK-47?

224 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:51:37pm

re: #221 Spare O'Lake

Do you honestly believe American society and culture is somehow the same as everywhere else?

More or less, yes. Our laws and institutions, however, are definitely superior to those of many places.

225 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:52:07pm

re: #223 Slumbering Behemoth

What's wrong with someone owning an AK-47?

An arsenal or a cache. Not an individual.

226 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:52:35pm

anybody that does not accept the 2nd amendment is a moron, prick, ass, and has nothing to contribute but mental sludge

227 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:52:50pm

Thanks for up-dinging that humorless post Dark_Falcon. I'll remember that.

228 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:53:00pm

re: #223 Slumbering Behemoth

What's wrong with someone owning an AK-47?

Nothing, provided that person is not out to harm others. I do agree there should be registration of full-auto weapons, but I have nothing against people owning them.

229 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:53:10pm

re: #226 albusteve

anybody that does not accept the 14th amendment is a moron, prick, ass, and has nothing to contribute but mental sludge

ftfm

230 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:53:15pm

re: #223 Slumbering Behemoth

What's wrong with someone owning an AK-47?

nothing as long as it's not full auto...that's the law, and a good one

231 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:53:18pm

re: #225 Gus 802

Ah, duly noted. I just wouldn't put AKs on the same list as RPGs and other high explosives.

232 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:53:35pm

Well, I think I've had my fill of Free Republic for the day.

Later.

233 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:53:51pm

re: #215 Obdicut

Sure. I just always get annoyed when I hear that phrase since it's so palpably untrue.

What makes us a 'polite society' is our laws, not our arms.

Knowing your neighbor might be armed tends to keep the level of argument reasonable.

Laws are not what keeps a society polite. Virtually every nation has a lovely bill of rights and constitution. When one group or tribe can intimidate another without fear or repercussion problems arise.

234 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:53:56pm

re: #227 Gus 802

Thanks for up-dinging that humorless post Dark_Falcon. I'll remember that.

The ding's withdrawn after review.

235 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:54:12pm

re: #229 JasonA

ftfm

taste good?...you like it?

236 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:54:54pm

re: #232 Gus 802

Well, I think I've had my fill of Free Republic for the day.

Later.

take a break and get your head sorted out bro

237 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:55:26pm

re: #232 Gus 802

Well, I think I've had my fill of Free Republic for the day.

Later.

Downding if your referring to this place here. If not, I shall retract.

238 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:55:41pm

re: #233 researchok

Knowing your neighbor might be armed tends to keep the level of argument reasonable.

How so?


Laws are not what keeps a society polite. Virtually every nation has a lovely bill of rights and constitution. When one group or tribe can intimidate another without fear or repercussion problems arise.

I don't really know what to say to this, except that no, our Constitution is actually a really spiffy thing, and that laws are innately bound with the actual enactment of them, not just their presence on a piece of paper.

239 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:56:12pm

re: #235 albusteve

taste good?...you like it?

Just trying to get a handle of what's sacrosanct and what's not, Steve.

240 prairiefire  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:56:19pm

The Dow ends the day up 213 points to close at 10404.

241 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:56:57pm

re: #239 JasonA

Just trying to get a handle of what's sacrosanct and what's not, Steve.

you have a poor memory

242 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:57:16pm

re: #204 Obdicut

No, I'm not, Cato. I'm sorry that you feel that way.

I want gun registration, not gun owner registration. If I had wanted gun owner registration, I would have said so.

Well, if that's what you want, you have it.

So what's left to want?

243 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:58:04pm

re: #242 Cato the Elder

Well, if that's what you want, you have it.

So what's left to want?

yes, thanks for that

244 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:58:22pm

re: #242 Cato the Elder

Well, if that's what you want, you have it.

So what's left to want?

A system that actually works at tracking guns.

245 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:58:57pm

re: #237 Slumbering Behemoth

Downding if your referring to this place here. If not, I shall retract.

Gus is gone.

246 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 2:59:48pm

re: #241 albusteve

you have a poor memory

Huh. See, I could've sworn you wanted to change the 14th Amendment to stop the Anchor Baby horde. Guess I was wrong about that...

247 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:01:35pm

re: #227 Gus 802

Thanks for up-dinging that humorless post Dark_Falcon. I'll remember that.

re: #232 Gus 802

Well, I think I've had my fill of Free Republic for the day.

re: #218 Gus 802

GAZE

248 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:03:52pm

re: #245 Dark_Falcon

It's just a silly and uncalled for as calling this place DKos, if that is in fact what he was doing.

Anyhow, when the zombies come, and they will, none of you are invited to my bunker.
/I wish...

249 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:09:49pm

re: #246 JasonA

Huh. See, I could've sworn you wanted to change the 14th Amendment to stop the Anchor Baby horde. Guess I was wrong about that...

no you were not...what part of the 2nd do you not like...just spill it out, straight up

250 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:10:20pm

re: #244 Obdicut

A system that actually works at tracking guns.

Ah.

How does the current system fail to work?

And how would you strengthen it, aside from outlawing outlaws, which we already do?

251 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:10:20pm

re: #247 Spare O'Lake

re: #218 Gus 802

GAZE

pretty rude...a lot if that here now days

252 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:12:22pm

re: #250 Cato the Elder

Ah.

How does the current system fail to work?

And how would you strengthen it, aside from outlawing outlaws, which we already do?

As I've said several times, I've actually got quite a bit written about this, but not here on my work computer.

I did consulting work for the Bradley Campaign, long ago, and I was dismayed to learn they weren't actually interested in solutions-- and they were dismayed to learn that I was.

253 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:12:31pm

re: #248 Slumbering Behemoth

It's just a silly and uncalled for as calling this place DKos, if that is in fact what he was doing.

Anyhow, when the zombies come, and they will, none of you are invited to my bunker.
/I wish...

Iron fist posted that a couple of years ago...what the noobs don't understand is that this argument comes up periodically and we have to do it all over for their benefit....cool pic btw, and that is a private collection

254 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:13:30pm

re: #252 Obdicut

As I've said several times, I've actually got quite a bit written about this, but not here on my work computer.

I did consulting work for the Bradley Campaign, long ago, and I was dismayed to learn they weren't actually interested in solutions-- and they were dismayed to learn that I was.

bail and fail

255 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:13:37pm

re: #252 Obdicut

Bradley = Brady.

256 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:13:56pm

re: #253 albusteve

I wish it were mine. Or at the very least, get a guided tour of the place.

257 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:14:40pm

re: #256 Slumbering Behemoth

I wish it were mine. Or at the very least, get a guided tour of the place.

oh yeah....I'm gettin a stiffy here

258 garhighway  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:19:04pm

re: #233 researchok

Knowing your neighbor might be armed tends to keep the level of argument reasonable.

That's why Somalia is such a garden spot.

259 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:19:16pm

JasonA...where did you go?
answer my question

260 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:19:23pm

re: #254 albusteve

re: #252 Obdicut

That's typical of political groups in DC. Their main interest is gaining political power, not actually solving the problem. For the type of people who like to work in DC, a permanent solution to their issue would be a nightmare, because they would not be needed and then have to go home and actually work for a living,

261 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:20:23pm

re: #257 albusteve

Okay, you are definitely not allowed in my bunker now.

262 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:20:24pm

re: #260 Dark_Falcon

re: #252 Obdicut

That's typical of political groups in DC. Their main interest is gaining political power, not actually solving the problem. For the type of people who like to work in DC, a permanent solution to their issue would be a nightmare, because they would not be needed and then have to go home and actually work for a living,

good one...very true
ahahaha!

263 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:20:53pm

re: #261 Slumbering Behemoth

Okay, you are definitely not allowed in my bunker now.

just don't flirt the ammo, I'm cool

264 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:21:47pm

re: #260 Dark_Falcon

It's not even that cynical with the Brady Campaign, it's that they really do believe that all guns are bad and the desire to own a gun is the desire to use the gun for violence.

They're more similar to the SoCons; they have a belief system and they skew everything to fit inside it.

265 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:22:45pm

re: #260 Dark_Falcon

And as an example, Dark, the guy I reported to lost his only son to an accidental discharge of a handgun by a childhood friend, at age twelve. He wasn't some slick lobbyist.

266 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:30:09pm

re: #264 Obdicut

It's not even that cynical with the Brady Campaign, it's that they really do believe that all guns are bad and the desire to own a gun is the desire to use the gun for violence.

They're more similar to the SoCons; they have a belief system and they skew everything to fit inside it.

I can understand that. They want total victory for their side, not a reasonable compromise. That sort of true believer actually worries me more than a political hack ever will. Hacks may be assholes, but their desire for money or power usually means you can negotiate with them or sometimes simply buy them off. True believers will never stop coming at you, because they are certain they are right. That last statement's wording was original, but it's insight was not.

267 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:32:00pm

re: #238 Obdicut

I don't really know what to say to this, except that no, our Constitution is actually a really spiffy thing, and that laws are innately bound with the actual enactment of them, not just their presence on a piece of paper.

That's my point!

It is about more than pretty words. Our society is predicated on the intangible. Free societies are different in that we allow for diversity. That isn't mandated by words.

268 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:32:44pm

re: #258 garhighway

That's why Somalia is such a garden spot.

Are you seriously saying that America is like a third world nation?

269 elektramourns  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:50:10pm

re: #156 Fozzie Bear

The second amendment is not a remedy. She may mean remedy as "self-help," that is, people taking the situation into their own hands. Which is very dangerous. I would not do so unless I had the local DA in my ballpark, and also may SCOTUS.

In law school we were taught the speech-action continuum. The closer speech gets to action or becoming action, the less constitutionally protected it is. You cannot yell FIRE in a crowded theater. What is SHE saying?

270 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:58:36pm

re: #266 Dark_Falcon

I should point out I was referring to my insight as unoriginal, not Obdicut's.

271 elektramourns  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 4:17:38pm

Remedies are a big part of the civil law. We had common-law remedies until legislatures created statutory remedies and which now generally supersede common law remedies. Remedies include money damages, and in real estate, specific performance. It used to be a landlord could go onto the land and take possession of the goods or property of the tenant. This was the notion of self-help, the idea that a person if he were wronged could under color of law take reasonable action to correct the situation and make himself whole. She is mistaken if she thinks the 2nd amendment involves remedies. I think she is thinking back to the good old days when people in her state and elsewhere would take the law into their own hands. One must be very very careful when doing this; you cannot play the fool and you must have a colorable right to do what you seek to do.


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