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1 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:01:23pm

Where’s the embedded link to watch? I gotta find my own link?

/Outrage!

2 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:02:13pm
3 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:03:04pm

re: #2 windsagio

Stream.

Much better than c-span. Thanks.

4 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:03:15pm

So, is there a drinking game to go along with the speech? If he says “inherited,” do I down a shot?

5 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:03:20pm

So far, so good.

6 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:03:27pm

Good start. What we’ve done, and what we’re telling BP to do.

7 OldnGrumpy  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:03:38pm

I got a preview

Blah ,blah ,Bush’s fault ,blah

8 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:03:46pm

I hear the Pres is fixin to appoint a Leak Czar or the like. Taking the bull by the horns or the oily pelican by the beak so to speak. I personally think it should rise to cabinet level: Chairman of the Department of Homeland United against Bad Rotten Industrial Seepages and such like (HUBRIS?).

9 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:03:56pm

Epidemic…good word choice.

10 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:04:26pm

His rhetoric is very martial, talking about fighting the spill quite a lot.

11 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:04:51pm

Embedded video now added above.

12 KingKenrod  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:05:02pm

re: #6 darthstar

Good start. What we’ve done, and what we’re telling BP to do.

Agenda:
1. Your govt is competent
2. Big Oil will pay!
3. Buy my energy plan

13 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:05:07pm

Jones Act waiver?

14 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:05:53pm

The boom wasn’t laid out properly…5 million feet of boom is worthless unless laid out properly.

15 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:06:03pm

One shot for each time the President says:
UNPRECEDENTED
UNREGULATED
FAILURES OF THE PAST ADMIN.

16 KingKenrod  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:06:16pm

re: #9 darthstar

Epidemic…good word choice.

Old rhetorical trick … conjure images of disease before talking about the villain.

17 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:06:37pm

re: #14 darthstar

Its also not storm-proof, which is a more insoluble problem :(

18 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:06:53pm

re: #9 darthstar

Epidemic…good word choice.

How so?

19 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:07:02pm

re: #12 KingKenrod

Agenda:
1. Your govt is competent
2. Big Oil will pay!
3. Buy my energy plan

re: #7 OldnGrumpy

I got a preview

Blah ,blah ,Bush’s fault ,blah

Nothing like listening to the actual speech before shooting your dicks off.

20 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:07:03pm

Obama is acknowledging that there will be friction in solving this crisis. That’s a good move on his part.

21 Soap_Man  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:07:10pm

I still blame BP a thousands times more than the federal government for this (and the aftermath), no matter what Obama does or doesn’t say tonight.

22 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:07:19pm

re: #17 windsagio

Its also not storm-proof, which is a more insoluble problem :(

True. But it needs to be arranged to direct the oil to collection points, not just try to keep it out.

23 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:07:29pm

Feelin their pain

24 avanti  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:07:30pm

re: #13 researchok

Jones Act waiver?

They have been granted, a half dozen other countries have ships helping.

25 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:08:04pm

re: #23 The Shadow Do

Feelin their pain

That you Bill?

26 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:08:26pm

Obama says BP must set aside money to compensate affected people, to be administered by a third party. That’s seems fair.

27 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:08:36pm

re: #18 Racer X

How so?

It’s going to poison the coast all the way around Florida and up to the Carolinas before this is over. That’s an epidemic.

28 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:08:44pm

BO has been lying through his teeth

29 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:09:02pm

Obama talks Gulf Coast Restoration, which is a good idea.

30 TampaKnight  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:09:08pm

This speech is roughly 50 days past due.

31 avanti  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:09:11pm

re: #28 albusteve

BO has been lying through his teeth

Specifics ???

32 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:09:16pm

re: #26 Dark_Falcon

Obama says BP must set aside money to compensate affected people, to be administered by a third party. That’s seems fair.

Question is: What third party wouldn’t take a good chunk for “administrative costs”?

33 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:09:38pm

re: #30 TampaKnight

This speech is roughly 50 days past due.

Maybe 30.

34 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:09:38pm

re: #28 albusteve

I’m not seeing that.

35 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:09:40pm

re: #26 Dark_Falcon

Obama says BP must set aside money to compensate affected people, to be administered by a third party. That’s seems fair.

no, there is not enough to set aside…BP is finished

36 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:09:50pm

There’s some meat, he has to address why it was approved.

“They lied” seems a good answer tho’.

37 Lidane  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:09:57pm

re: #31 avanti

Specifics ???

Who needs specifics when you have a gut feeling?

38 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:10:02pm

re: #30 TampaKnight

This speech is roughly 50 days past due.

Meh.

Your brain is roughly 50 cc’s short of the average.

39 tradewind  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:10:03pm

People polled in LA think Bush handled Katrina better than Obama has handled the spill…. (talk about damning with faint praise)….

50% of voters in the state, even including 31% of Democrats, give Bush higher marks on that question compared to 35% who pick Obama.


[Link: publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com…]

40 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:10:06pm

re: #24 avanti

They have been granted, a half dozen other countries have ships helping.

When did that happen?

I didn’t see anything on that.

41 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:10:29pm

When will the moratorium be lifted?

42 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:10:35pm

Blame Bush!

43 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:10:38pm

I like him taking on the culture of the MMS.

44 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:10:45pm

re: #32 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Question is: What third party wouldn’t take a good chunk for “administrative costs”?

None of them.

45 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:10:48pm

re: #41 Racer X

He said 6 months :P

46 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:11:01pm

Oops. He’s taking corporations to task.

Obama hates bodies!

47 sngnsgt  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:11:02pm

re: #42 Bagua

Blame Bush!

Yup. here it comes…

48 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:11:07pm

re: #43 windsagio

I like him taking on the culture of the MMS.

He lied, it isn’t the last decade, it was always thus.

49 Lidane  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:11:16pm

re: #34 Dark_Falcon

I’m not seeing that.

That’s because you’re not saddled with a raging case of ODS.

50 KingKenrod  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:11:44pm

re: #26 Dark_Falcon

Obama says BP must set aside money to compensate affected people, to be administered by a third party. That’s seems fair.

I hope BP agrees voluntarily and doesn’t have to be dragged through the court to get this done.

51 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:11:47pm

re: #24 avanti

They have been granted, a half dozen other countries have ships helping.

I can’t find anything on waiver- are you sure?

52 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:11:52pm

re: #42 Bagua

Blame Bush!

Sounds like he’s not blaming Bush at all…just saying that they were too slow to clean up the corruption in the MMS…that’s called admitting they weren’t focused enough. Try not to be so binary.

53 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:11:56pm

re: #42 Bagua

Blame Bush!

Yep. He blaming Bush for the MMS’s problems.

54 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:12:04pm

re: #48 Bagua

Its gotten substantially worse under recent presidents.

And the rate its gotten worse has accelerated.

55 tradewind  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:12:09pm

re: #41 Racer X
Probably sometime in mid October, 2012../
Dems will beg him to lift it before the midterms, but he’s boxed in on that one.

56 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:12:17pm

We’re running out of places because the federal government is making it off-limits to drilling, Mr. President.

57 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:12:26pm

re: #50 KingKenrod

I hope BP agrees voluntarily and doesn’t have to be dragged through the court to get this done.

Quite Concur.

58 HelloDare  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:12:27pm

re: #40 researchok

When did that happen?

I didn’t see anything on that.

After delays, U.S. begins to tap foreign aid for gulf oil spill

59 TampaKnight  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:12:36pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

Yep. He blaming Bush for the MMS’s problems.

Because those problems couldn’t have been dealt with in the past 16 months….

60 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:12:41pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

Yep. He blaming Bush for the MMS’s problems.

Funny. I have yet to hear the name “Bush”.

You got dog ears?

61 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:12:45pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

Yep. He blaming Bush for the MMS’s problems.

The corruption was there. That’s a fact. He didn’t clean it up fast enough to prevent this. That’s also a fact. I don’t see how that’s “Blaming bush”

62 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:12:54pm

‘We have failed to act’

Read: New taxes.

63 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:12:56pm

re: #56 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Maybe more drilling isn’t the answer anyways :D

ALSO!

Here’s the red meat!

64 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:13:24pm

Support Cap and Trade!

65 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:13:26pm

re: #62 researchok

‘We have failed to act’

Read: New taxes.

Uh…no. He’s talking about alternative energy.

66 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:13:30pm

re: #52 darthstar

Sounds like he’s not blaming Bush at all…just saying that they were too slow to clean up the corruption in the MMS…that’s called admitting they weren’t focused enough. Try not to be so binary.

I heard him say the last decade, try not to be such a partisan spinner.

67 tradewind  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:13:33pm

Embrace the Crisis!
Otherwise, Cap n Trade is toast.

68 Soap_Man  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:13:45pm

C’mon, Gus. Don’t downding from within the shadows. Come out and play!!

69 Boogberg  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:13:46pm

I’ll be damned. He did cast blame on previous admins. He shouldn’t have done that.

70 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:13:47pm

I am getting ill…

71 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:13:56pm

re: #60 Cato the Elder

Funny. I have yet to hear the name “Bush”.

You got dog ears?

When he says ‘the last decade’, I take that as a “Blame Bush” dog whistle.

72 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:13:58pm

re: #64 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Support Cap and Trade!

BAM!

Never miss an opportunity!

73 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:14:07pm

re: #69 Boogberg

I’ll be damned. He did cast blame on previous admins. He shouldn’t have done that.

told you so…

74 tradewind  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:14:14pm

re: #60 Cato the Elder
’ The previous administration’s failures ’ are the dogwhistle.

75 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:14:18pm

re: #68 Soap_Man

C’mon, Gus. Don’t downding from within the shadows. Come out and play!!

No sense. This happens every time Obama makes a speech.

76 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:14:19pm

Outrage!

77 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:14:22pm

re: #54 windsagio

Its gotten substantially worse under recent presidents.

And the rate its gotten worse has accelerated.

Bull, ask Abu-Steve. He’s a liberal and he says it was always thus.

78 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:14:35pm

OMG! He mentioned “science”!

Tranzi prog bastard.

79 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:14:43pm

re: #58 HelloDare

After delays, U.S. begins to tap foreign aid for gulf oil spill

Saw that- but was Jones Act temporarily rescinded? No mention of that.

80 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:14:46pm

Don’t waste the Crisis!
/hey, being a wingnut is kinda fun.

81 tradewind  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:14:50pm

PIMF/ ’ is ‘

82 TampaKnight  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:14:52pm

George Bush hates dolphins.

83 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:15:07pm

“Act as one nation.”

UNITY!

CHANGE!

YES WE CAN!

/puke

84 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:15:09pm

re: #77 Bagua

Bull, ask Abu-Steve. He’s a liberal and he says it was always thus.

Ok that was funny :D

85 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:15:15pm

re: #71 Dark_Falcon

When he says ‘the last decade’, I take that as a “Blame Bush” dog whistle.

So are you saying Bush had no effect on off-shore oil drilling in his eight years? He lifted his daddy’s ban on it.

86 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:15:21pm

“When I was a candidate for this office” ?

Jeezuz dude, you can stop campaigning now.

87 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:15:28pm

re: #83 Dark_Falcon

“Act as one nation.”

UNITY!

CHANGE!

YES WE CAN!

/puke

Communism!

88 zora  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:15:31pm

re: #69 Boogberg

not even if it’s true? is that some new rule.

89 TampaKnight  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:15:57pm

re: #85 darthstar

So are you saying Bush had no effect on off-shore oil drilling in his eight years? He lifted his daddy’s ban on it.

The permit for this rig was signed under Clinton and construction completed in 2001.

Next?

90 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:16:01pm

re: #71 Dark_Falcon

When he says ‘the last decade’, I take that as a “Blame Bush” dog whistle.

Well, in fact, there’s plenty of blame to be heaped on Karl Rove’s favorite C-student.

91 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:16:07pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

Don’t waste the Crisis!
/hey, being a wingnut is kinda fun.

Moderate Whackjob, if you please.

92 Boogberg  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:16:12pm

re: #73 brookly red

Yeah yeah. Kiss my ass. :D

93 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:16:23pm

re: #29 Dark_Falcon

Obama talks Gulf Coast Restoration, which is a good idea.

Yes, that is excellent, and long overdue.
However; there won’t be many people left here, I’m afraid.

94 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:16:23pm

re: #75 Gus 802

No sense. This happens every time Obama makes a speech.

Sorry, he pisses a lot of people here off. I think its more Obama himself, even for me. He’s actually doing fairly well here.

95 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:16:27pm

I am FDR and JFK all rolled into one!

96 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:16:53pm

Uh, it’s a little difficult to claim that George W. Bush was in any way forward-looking when it came to energy policy.

97 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:16:54pm

re: #65 Killgore Trout

Uh…no. He’s talking about alternative energy.

How does that not translate into new taxes?

I’m not against new projects and technologies- I just wish some of the pissed away stimulus would have gone to that.

98 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:17:03pm

re: #74 tradewind

’ The previous administration’s failures ’ are the dogwhistle.

And may the devil fuck the memory of the previous administration. Dubya = shitstain on the history books.

99 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:17:04pm

re: #89 TampaKnight

The permit for this rig was signed under Clinton and construction completed in 2001.

Next?

Okay, so it’s Clinton’s fault too. That still doesn’t excuse Bush’s environmental record. And President Obama has already admitted his fault on this topic. Why is it so hard for you to accept that Bush wasn’t a perfect president?

100 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:17:10pm

re: #94 Dark_Falcon

Sorry, he pisses a lot of people here off. I think its more Obama himself, even for me. He’s actually doing fairly well here.

Really? I never noticed that.

101 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:17:15pm

re: #90 Cato the Elder

Exactly. When you get down to it, he’s being extremely (if not overly) careful to NOT lay blame on the previous administration, he still is overly concerned with appearing nonpartisan imo :P

102 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:17:27pm

Stupid, stupid rhetoric. The unicorn is there for your taking folks. clean energy right around the corner.

103 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:17:41pm

re: #96 Charles

Uh, it’s a little difficult to claim that George W. Bush was in any way forward-looking when it came to energy policy.

He wasn’t forward looking- he was blind..

104 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:18:01pm

re: #97 researchok


I’m not against new projects and technologies- I just wish some of the pissed away stimulus would have gone to that.


It did. Plenty of tax cuts too.

105 bratwurst  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:18:05pm

re: #94 Dark_Falcon

I think its more Obama himself

Gee, ya think?

106 TampaKnight  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:18:07pm

re: #99 darthstar

Okay, so it’s Clinton’s fault too. That still doesn’t excuse Bush’s environmental record. And President Obama has already admitted his fault on this topic. Why is it so hard for you to accept that Bush wasn’t a perfect president?

Because this happened 16 months into Obama’s presidency and we’re still fucking assigning blame to George Bush.

That’s why.

“I’m accountable, but first let me blame this on Bush”

107 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:18:13pm

re: #97 researchok

How does that not translate into new taxes?

I’m not against new projects and technologies- I just wish some of the pissed away stimulus would have gone to that.

He actually did talk about how some of that money was used for that.

Obama’s talk about the blessing of the fleet is a very nice closing touch.

108 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:18:16pm

Is that a picture of Mao Tse-Tong behind him?!!??

Oh no, wait. That’s the presidential seal. Looked all commie-like for a second.

109 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:18:41pm

PAyers!
Muslim Prayers?
Sharia!

110 avanti  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:18:46pm

re: #79 researchok

Saw that- but was Jones Act temporarily rescinded? No mention of that.

No one has needed a waiver yet, but if one is needed, it will be done. No need to rescind the entire act:

“National Incident Commander Admiral Thad Allen announced the development of specific guidance to ensure accelerated processing of requests for Jones Act waivers should they be received as a part of the BP oil spill response.

Currently, 15 foreign-flagged vessels are involved in the largest response to an oil spill in U.S. history. No Jones Act waivers have been granted because none of these vessels have required such a waiver to conduct their operations in the Gulf of Mexico.

However, in order to prepare for any potential need, Admiral Allen has provided guidance to the Coast Guard Federal On-Scene Coordinator, U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP), and the U.S. Maritime Administration to ensure any Jones Act waiver requests receive urgent attention and processing.

“While we have not seen any need to waive the Jones Act as part of this historic response, we continue to prepare for all possible scenarios,” said Admiral Allen. “Should any waivers be needed, we are prepared to process them as quickly as possible to allow vital spill response activities being undertaken by foreign-flagged vessels to continue without delay.”

To date, the administration has leveraged assets and skills from numerous foreign countries and international organizations as part of this historic, all-hands-on-deck response, including Canada, Germany, Mexico, Netherlands, Norway, the United Nations’ International Maritime Organization and the European Union’s Monitoring and Information Centre. In some cases, offers of international assistance have been turned down because the offer didn’t fit the needs of the response.

Generally, federal law prohibits a foreign-flagged vessel from transporting merchandise between points in the United States encompassed by the Coastwise laws. CBP makes determinations as to whether or not the Jones Act applies to the activities of a foreign-flagged vessel operating within U.S. waters.

Even if the Jones Act applies, a foreign flagged vessel can still conduct certain planned operations as part of the BP oil spill response if the vessel is an oil spill response vessel and meets the requirements of 46 USC § 55113.

The guidance provided by Admiral Allen would route waivers related to the BP oil spill response through the Federal On-Scene Coordinator, who will forward requests immediately through the National Incident Commander for expedited clearance.

A Jones Act waiver can be submitted by any interested party, either inside or outside the U.S. government.

The Jones Act, passed in 1920, and similar laws governing coastal shipping were created to encourage development of American merchant marine for national defense and commercial purposes.

The Unified Command continues to look at all available options for assistance as we continue to fight BP’s oil from impacting our shores and our communities. Assistance provided to date includes containment and sorbent boom, skimmers and containment vessels, and engineers and scientists with vital experience in oil spill cleanup operations.”

111 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:19:02pm

“hand guide us through the storm to a brighter day”. what hack writes this stuff.

112 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:19:06pm

That was short and boring.

113 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:19:15pm

I don’t give two hoots about prayers…

114 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:19:34pm

If that was supposed to be a rallying cry for alternative energy development, though, it was good but not especially memorable.

115 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:19:35pm

re: #111 The Shadow Do

“hand guide us through the storm to a brighter day”. what hack writes this stuff.

Barack Obama…he writes most of his own material.

116 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:19:44pm

OK, the speech is over. Some of the policy proposals I didn’t like, but overall I give him a B+. He stayed on topic and gave a good overview of what is being done and what he plans to do.

117 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:19:53pm

He acquitted himself well and avoided, as mentioned, bashing Bush’s brains in for the crisis. I can respect that.

118 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:20:08pm

re: #115 darthstar

Barack Obama…he writes most of his own material.

Oh… that hack writer.

119 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:20:42pm

sorry I was not impressed.

120 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:20:49pm

re: #114 Charles

If that was supposed to be a rallying cry for alternative energy development, though, it was good but not especially memorable.

I think the point of this was to let the American people know that he’s focused on this, and he’s not dropping the ball. It’s him against the noise machine of critics and skeptics. This short speech will get analyzed until there’s nothing left of it.

121 Vambo  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:20:54pm

How quickly everyone forgets when Bush blamed Clinton for the bank collapse… or maybe people just agree that it was Clinton’s fault. When in doubt, blame Democrats.

122 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:21:07pm

re: #119 brookly red

sorry I was not impressed.

I know…I thought for sure he’d mention you by name.

123 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:21:16pm

re: #104 Killgore Trout

It did. Plenty of tax cuts too.

You may be right, KT. We’ll see.

Maybe I’m just blind to all the pork. I see that debt clock and I just get furious.

I’m realistic enough to understand there is nio one size fits all approach to the economy or for that matter, energy policy. I just can’t get the stimulus debacle out of my mind.

124 avanti  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:21:23pm

re: #119 brookly red

sorry I was not impressed.

I would be shocked if you were.

125 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:21:26pm

re: #119 brookly red

You weren’t going to be :p

126 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:21:35pm

re: #121 Vambo

How quickly everyone forgets when Bush blamed Clinton for the bank collapse… or maybe people just agree that it was Clinton’s fault. When in doubt, blame Democrats.

So Bush did it to is your conclusion?

127 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:21:39pm

re: #116 Dark_Falcon

OK, the speech is over. Some of the policy proposals I didn’t like, but overall I give him a B+. He stayed on topic and gave a good overview of what is being done and what he plans to do.

And that was the point of the speech, IMO.

128 HelloDare  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:21:44pm

re: #108 Charles

Is that a picture of Mao Tse-Tong behind him?!!??

Oh no, wait. That’s the presidential seal. Looked all commie-like for a second.

That was definitely the presidential seal. But the Eagle had its fingers crossed.

129 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:21:47pm

Now comes Robert Gibbs and the lightning round.

130 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:21:49pm

Weak.

131 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:22:06pm

TU Quo Quo!

It’s whats for dinner!

132 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:22:19pm

re: #121 Vambo

“OMG he’ll blame Bush!” has become this massive, crazy rallying cry for deflection.

Maybe they’re so adverse because they know he actually deserves some blame >>

133 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:22:19pm

Gus, I’m sorry I upset you earlier with that counter ding you brought to my attention. I took it back, just so you know.

134 Reginald Perrin  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:22:21pm

re: #114 Charles

If that was supposed to be a rallying cry for alternative energy development, though, it was good but not especially memorable.

I expected more but understand that he didn’t want to appear to be trying to use this crisis to jam through his alternative energy agenda. I’m sure the right is going to be complaining that even this was too much.

135 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:22:28pm

Sara Palin gets a rebuttal right?

136 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:22:33pm

Olbermann’s bagging on Obama.

137 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:22:57pm

well at least Jindal is actually doing something.

138 tradewind  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:22:58pm

re: #83 Dark_Falcon
Takes me back to the good old days.
“The tenth rule… is you do what you can with what you have and clothe it with moral garments…. It involves sifting the multiple factors which combine in creating the circumstances at any given time…

(You-know-who-, writing in ’ You Know What )./

139 Soap_Man  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:22:59pm

re: #136 Charles

Olbermann’s bagging on Obama.

For what? (no cable)

140 Vambo  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:23:02pm

re: #126 Bagua

So Bush did it to is your conclusion?

Dems blame Repubs, Repubs blame Dems… I don’t get why people even talk about it anymore. “OMG HE’S BLAMING BUSH!!!”. Well duh.

141 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:23:02pm

re: #136 Charles

Olbermann’s bagging on Obama.

ODS?

142 Vambo  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:23:24pm

re: #132 windsagio

“OMG he’ll blame Bush!” has become this massive, crazy rallying cry for deflection.

Maybe they’re so adverse because they know he actually deserves some blame >>

;)

143 avanti  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:23:32pm

re: #135 Racer X

Sara Palin gets a rebuttal right?

If so, she’ll be brilliant, just check the far right blogs.

144 tradewind  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:23:34pm

re: #136 Charles
Shocka.

145 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:23:43pm

That works. Won’t make the wingnuts happy because nothing will make them happy until the preeminent energy policy expert Sarah Palin is in the White House. I’m sure Ed Morreisey is running this through his word counter as we type.

146 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:23:51pm

Chris Matthews is bagging too.

147 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:24:12pm

re: #136 Charles

Olbermann’s bagging on Obama.

I think Keith missed the point. Of course he didn’t give specifics in his speech…this disaster is still unfolding every day. We won’t know what to do until we know the scope of the damage.

148 TampaKnight  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:24:21pm

re: #136 Charles

Olbermann’s bagging on Obama.

Probably because Obama did not pitch the idea of nationalizing the entire oil industry and then promptly shutting it down.

149 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:24:21pm

re: #146 Charles

Chris Matthews is bagging too.

Bagging as in critical?

150 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:24:23pm

Obama’s getting it from all directions.

151 OldnGrumpy  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:24:27pm

I couldn’t give a squirt of piss for GWB,I’m just tired of hearing its Bush’s fault.

152 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:24:28pm

re: #146 Charles

Chris Matthews is bagging too.

Probably for not mention BP.

153 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:24:28pm

re: #112 Killgore Trout

That was short and boring.

Well, it wasn’t boring to me.

He still doesn’t seem to understand the full economic impact of his moratorium, or he’s ignoring the information he’s been given.

I’m all for additional safety requirements, new regs, revamping MMS, etc.

But it is not necessary to shut down Gulf operations for six months.

It won’t be six months. It will be years before operations are back up and running to any degree.

It isn’t just the rig workers affected. It’s all the businesses that support the oil industry, and their employees.

This speech was a “kiss Louisiana goodbye” speech. And I’m not sure he even realizes it.

I understand the difficulty of the decisions he’s having to make. But there needs to be some balance.

154 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:24:46pm

re: #137 brookly red

well at least Jindal is actually doing something.

Grubbing around on the beaches with his own two hands, or what?

155 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:24:56pm

re: #146 Charles

Chris Matthews is bagging too.

Obama can’t walk on water- no miracles. They’re heartbroken.

Reality can be a tough sell.

156 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:25:00pm

re: #146 Charles

I really do think he’s a good President, but he’s just not very pundit-friendly. Doesn’t seem to quite have the fire in his belly usually.

(Or maybe he just carefully buries it. The occasional instances of true snark from him are brilliant.)

157 KingKenrod  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:25:16pm

re: #121 Vambo

How quickly everyone forgets when Bush blamed Clinton for the bank collapse… or maybe people just agree that it was Clinton’s fault. When in doubt, blame Democrats.

I don’t remember Bush blaming anyone specifically - he defended his own record. His supporters blamed a lot of people - Carter, Clinton, Dodd, Frank.

158 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:25:26pm

re: #154 Cato the Elder

Grubbing around on the beaches with his own two hands, or what?

building barriers.

159 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:25:36pm

re: #136 Charles

Olbermann’s bagging on Obama.

Considering what I heard for two hours on Thom Hartmann’s radio show today, calls from the progressive left, and what they hoped to hear from President Obama tonight, this is not going to change their mind that he is a sell out to the center… no good.

(see how I worked “hope and change”

160 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:25:39pm

Did he outright blame Bush or Republicans? No, but he did a backhand slap to the “culture” that supports little to no regulation on oil companies.

And he, predictably, took time to bang the drum for Cap and Trade or any “alternatives” offered, with the always popular “won’t accept doing nothing as the answer.”

Overall short, sweet, and predictable. I give it an B+.

161 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:26:04pm

re: #147 darthstar

I think Keith missed the point. Of course he didn’t give specifics in his speech…this disaster is still unfolding every day. We won’t know what to do until we know the scope of the damage.

Absolutely correct.
There are no specifics that can be given.

He was also right to remind people that this is ongoing and continuing, and will be for some time. There is no immediate fix to this.

162 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:26:06pm

re: #159 Walter L. Newton

Well remember, any talk radio caller is a different species.

163 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:26:14pm

re: #148 TampaKnight

Probably because Obama did not pitch the idea of nationalizing the entire oil industry and then promptly shutting it down.

That’s exactly what I was hearing on the liberal radio talk shows today, that’s just what they wanted to hear.

164 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:26:19pm

re: #153 reine.de.tout

Well, it wasn’t boring to me.

He still doesn’t seem to understand the full economic impact of his moratorium, or he’s ignoring the information he’s been given.

I’m all for additional safety requirements, new regs, revamping MMS, etc.

But it is not necessary to shut down Gulf operations for six months.

It won’t be six months. It will be years before operations are back up and running to any degree.

It isn’t just the rig workers affected. It’s all the businesses that support the oil industry, and their employees.

This speech was a “kiss Louisiana goodbye” speech. And I’m not sure he even realizes it.

I understand the difficulty of the decisions he’s having to make. But there needs to be some balance.

All true but it is not only Louisiana, all the gulf states and the entire nation will be hard hit.

165 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:26:26pm

Well, whoever though Fox would have Sarah Palin on was right. Get her, Cato!

166 Boogberg  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:26:36pm

re: #88 zora

not even if it’s true? is that some new rule.

No, I was just hoping that he wouldn’t do that in a situation like this. I need a President who worries about the remedy foremost.

167 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:26:51pm

re: #158 brookly red

building barriers.

With his own two hands? With no help from the feds?

Jindal can lick my taint.

168 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:27:24pm

re: #162 windsagio

Well remember, any talk radio caller is a different species.

Really… then why do we give the right wing talk radio callers so much “credit?” Don’t give me that shit.

169 KingKenrod  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:27:24pm

re: #150 Charles

Obama’s getting it from all directions.

That’s a sure sign that Obama has adopted a moderate position.

170 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:27:45pm

re: #164 Bagua

All true but it is not only Louisiana, all the gulf states and the entire nation will be hard hit.

Louisiana is not buying this [Link: publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com…]

171 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:27:47pm

re: #147 darthstar

Of course he didn’t give specifics in his speech…this disaster is still unfolding every day. We won’t know what to do until we know the scope of the damage.


- George W. Bush

… and he still got his ass kicked.

172 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:28:16pm

re: #168 Walter L. Newton

I don’t give them much credit at all, on either side.

You could always take it up with people who DO I guess :D

173 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:28:16pm

re: #169 KingKenrod

That’s a sure sign that Obama has adopted a moderate position.

Or it’s a sure sign he’s not getting squat accomplished.

174 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:28:17pm

re: #165 Dark_Falcon

Well, whoever thought Fox would have Sarah Palin on was right. Get her, Cato!

PIMF

175 tradewind  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:28:39pm

re: #159 Walter L. Newton
The left got their abandon-ship orders from Maureen Dowd last week, firmed up in the Op/Ed in the NYT Sunday, which questioned his ’ competence and leadership ‘.
But don’t fret….. they’ll be back in time for the midterms.

176 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:28:47pm

re: #164 Bagua

All true but it is not only Louisiana, all the gulf states and the entire nation will be hard hit.

Absolutely.
We’ll be first to go though.
*sigh*

177 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:29:29pm

re: #169 KingKenrod

That’s a sure sign that Obama has adopted a moderate position.

or maybe people are just not feeling the love.

178 tradewind  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:29:33pm

re: #165 Dark_Falcon
She’s on their payroll as a commentator, and she hounded Obama to meet with Tony Hayward until he caved.

179 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:29:47pm

re: #153 reine.de.tout

Well, it wasn’t boring to me.

He still doesn’t seem to understand the full economic impact of his moratorium, or he’s ignoring the information he’s been given.

I’m all for additional safety requirements, new regs, revamping MMS, etc.

But it is not necessary to shut down Gulf operations for six months.

It won’t be six months. It will be years before operations are back up and running to any degree.

It isn’t just the rig workers affected. It’s all the businesses that support the oil industry, and their employees.

This speech was a “kiss Louisiana goodbye” speech. And I’m not sure he even realizes it.

I understand the difficulty of the decisions he’s having to make. But there needs to be some balance.

Obama has no clue on the impact of his administration’s decisions.

180 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:30:35pm

re: #175 tradewind

One could wish the Left were that monlithic, they’d actually get things done then :D

181 tradewind  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:30:41pm

re: #26 Dark_Falcon
Condo owners who have had cancellations for summer rentals are already getting compensated. Article in the Destin, FL local paper last week.

182 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:30:41pm

OK, I can’t wait for Robert Gibbs to get off the pot any more. There’s a game starting soon.

183 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:30:44pm

ZOMFG!

The president gave a speech.

He didn’t blame Bush by name, therefore he blamed Bush.

The speech was too late; too early; not enough; too much; ill-timed; hated on white bitches and bastards; didn’t mention white bitches and bastards; was racist; sucked eggs.

Most of all, it failed to magically make problems for which each and every car driver in this country is responsible disappear, by magic! And sorcery!

The president is a failure.

184 Soap_Man  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:30:50pm

First of all, I do think this administration (and its supporters) pass blame too much. But with that said, everybody does it.

President: “Don’t blame me, this government was fucked up long before I got here.”
Principal: “Don’t blame me, this school was fucked up long before I got here.”
CEO: “Don’t blame me, this company was fucked up long before I got here.”

And so on. I’m not saying its right. But it is sometimes correct to say “Look, this really isn’t my fault.” Other times it is just plain bullshit.

However, I will say this. If three (or seven) years from now I am still on this blog, I will make it a special point to mock any conservative who blames on the government’s problems in Obama. (And any liberal who drops the dismissive “Oh look, they are just blaming Obama again.)

185 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:30:57pm

So I guess it’s true. Sarah “The Quitter” Palin is speaking on Fox News.

[The president] “should stop stopping the gusher.”

Bill O’Reily was said to look confused.

186 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:31:03pm

re: #176 reine.de.tout

Absolutely.
We’ll be first to go though.
*sigh*

Louisiana will be much harder hit than Texas. A lot of Texas businesses will just do their business in Brazil, Africa, Asia and elsewhere.

187 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:31:08pm

Part of the problem is that Obama doesn’t come across as a ‘hands on’ guy. He’s just not credible as a ‘lets’ get down and dirty do the job’ (the John Kerry thing- egghead and ivory tower type).

Americans- and people in the Gulf- want to see a ‘follow me!’ kind of leadership rather than an administrator.

188 The Curmudgeon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:31:09pm

There are three things Obama should have done from the beginning, and which he still hasn’t done. First, by Executive Order, suspend all laws and regulations that impede BP’s efforts. Second, so the same thing regarding the states’ efforts to protect their shores. Third, offer to make available to BP all equipment at his disposal (ships, helicopters, etc.).

189 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:32:14pm

Hiya Lizards! The storm is gone…
I got to see the President tonight…Pretty good..I see the right is pissed off that we have a visionary Leader on National TV.. This has turned into a pissing match on Fox..5 words during pregame
Bitching is not leadership Sarah..

190 tradewind  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:32:18pm

re: #180 windsagio
It’s been known to pull its disparate acts together remarkably quickly when it finally finds a target.

191 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:32:28pm

re: #188 The Curmudgeon

There are three things Obama should have done from the beginning, and which he still hasn’t done. First, by Executive Order, suspend all laws and regulations that impede BP’s efforts. Second, so the same thing regarding the states’ efforts to protect their shores. Third, offer to make available to BP all equipment at his disposal (ships, helicopters, etc.).

That is nuts, do you want the relief wells to blow out as well?

192 tradewind  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:32:49pm

re: #185 Gus 802
Who said he looked confused?
He always looks a tad pompous to me.

193 Boogberg  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:33:07pm

re: #182 Charles

Is this for the championship? I may have to take a look.

194 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:33:18pm

re: #182 Charles

OK, I can’t wait for Robert Gibbs to get off the pot any more. There’s a game starting soon.

Yahoo!
Good Luck Charles!
/I hope we win!

195 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:33:18pm

re: #192 tradewind

Who said he looked confused?
He always looks a tad pompous to me.

Someone on Twitter.

196 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:33:32pm

Palin: “We have to know that Obama’s number one priority is stopping the leak.”

If you seriously doubt that, Sarah, you’re dumber than I thought.

197 tradewind  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:33:52pm

re: #189 HoosierHoops
Hey…. she got him to meet with Hayward, Hoops. Before, he wasn’t even about to. He was still trying to decide whose ass to kick./

198 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:34:07pm

Yikes, he is leaving the “six month” moratorium in place.

They will be opening champagne in Brazil and weeping in Louisiana.

{rein.de.tout}

199 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:34:08pm

re: #189 HoosierHoops

Hiya Lizards! The storm is gone…
I got to see the President tonight…Pretty good..I see the right is pissed off that we have a visionary Leader on National TV.. This has turned into a pissing match on Fox..5 words during pregame
Bitching is not leadership Sarah..

You must have missed the part where talkers Schultz, Obermann, Mathews, Hartmann and more of the hard left media are pissed off too?

200 tradewind  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:34:11pm

re: #195 Gus 802
Oh, well then that settles it.

201 HelloDare  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:34:13pm

re: #169 KingKenrod

That’s a sure sign that Obama has adopted a moderate position.

Not necessarily. An ineffective response would get it from both sides. That’s not to say that his response will be ineffective.

202 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:34:16pm

re: #190 tradewind

yeah like when?

And note I said ‘get things done’ :p

203 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:34:20pm

Somebody go check the bathroom and make sure Gibbs didn’t fall in.

204 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:34:40pm
205 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:34:51pm

Beneficial crisis: now is the time to deploy unicorns!

206 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:35:00pm

And Sarah Palin is actually saying we should reach out to other nations on this one. She’s right on that point, but the cognitive dissonance is just stunning.

207 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:35:01pm

re: #196 Dark_Falcon

Palin: “We have to know that Obama’s number one priority is stopping the leak.”

If you seriously doubt that, Sarah, you’re dumber than I thought.

I think she expects him to put on some scuba gear and dive down there.

208 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:35:08pm

re: #204 Cato the Elder

Sarah Palin. May the devil drill that ass.

classy even for you…

209 avanti  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:35:13pm

re: #183 Cato the Elder

ZOMFG!

The president gave a speech.

He didn’t blame Bush by name, therefore he blamed Bush.

The speech was too late; too early; not enough; too much; ill-timed; hated on white bitches and bastards; didn’t mention white bitches and bastards; was racist; sucked eggs.

Most of all, it failed to magically make problems for which each and every car driver in this country is responsible disappear, by magic! And sorcery!

The president is a failure.

Oddly, most of the flack coming from the right involves the six month suspension of drilling. It’s better to keep folks working on rigs, and screw the risks of yet another disaster I guess.

210 tradewind  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:35:14pm

re: #196 Dark_Falcon
I don’t know, Dark. I think he’s been more interested in stopping the bleeding.

211 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:35:48pm

re: #198 Bagua

Yikes, he is leaving the “six month” moratorium in place.

They will be opening champagne in Brazil and weeping in Louisiana.

{rein.de.tout}

And that is the worst decision he has made thus far in his Presidency. By far.

212 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:35:50pm

Offshore oil production in this country is done and not just for six months. business is always a risk/reward judgment. It takes the big bucks of an Exxon or a Chevron to do this work. They will be getting out and they won’t be back as they see the bills boil up on BP faster than a runaway well.

213 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:36:00pm

re: #205 Bagua

Beneficial crisis: now is the time to deploy unicorns!

Do they fart rainbows?

214 tradewind  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:36:04pm

re: #202 windsagio
When it sucked it up, held its nose, and decided that it wanted the WH back badly enough, for one.

215 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:36:17pm

re: #204 Cato the Elder

Sarah Palin. May the devil drill that ass.

You forgot to mention her new titties.

216 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:36:37pm

re: #211 Racer X

And that is the worst decision he has made thus far in his Presidency. By far.

He has no chance in 2012 now. Brave decision.

217 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:36:39pm

re: #210 tradewind

I don’t know, Dark. I think he’s been more interested in stopping the bleeding.

What do you mean?

218 tradewind  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:36:48pm

re: #211 Racer X
It’s a close tie with picking Eric Holder for AG, but yes. It’s bad, and I just hope he has to take it back.

219 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:37:00pm

re: #209 avanti

Oddly, most of the flack coming from the right involves the six month suspension of drilling. It’s better to keep folks working on rigs, and screw the risks of yet another disaster I guess.

Might have something to do with the fact that you’re putting thousands out of work and not just for six months. Oil rigs can’t simply be turned on and off at the flick of a switch, you’re talking months or years just to get them up and running again, let alone pumping out crude.

220 avanti  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:37:00pm

re: #188 The Curmudgeon

There are three things Obama should have done from the beginning, and which he still hasn’t done. First, by Executive Order, suspend all laws and regulations that impede BP’s efforts. Second, so the same thing regarding the states’ efforts to protect their shores. Third, offer to make available to BP all equipment at his disposal (ships, helicopters, etc.).


You forgot your sarc tag.
y

221 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:37:26pm

re: #215 Racer X

You forgot to mention her new titties.

Cato doesn’t deal in that sort of gossip.

222 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:37:34pm

Gibbs will charm us now.

223 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:37:56pm

Gibbs is going to have the lowest audience ever for a White House Q&A, against the Lakers-Celtics game.

224 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:38:06pm

re: #214 tradewind

I woudln’t give them credit for that, it was more the banking collapse + Katrina + Palin :p

225 tradewind  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:38:08pm

re: #217 Dark_Falcon
I really did not see any immediate concern that rose to the level of this disaster. It took weeks, and by then his poll numbers were heading way south, and people were grumbling. James Carville, IMO, was the moving force that got him out of the WH and down to the Gulf.

226 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:38:10pm

re: #216 Bagua

He has no chance in 2012 now. Brave decision.

There is no way he will lose to Sarah Palin - and yes she will get the nomination.

227 OldnGrumpy  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:38:53pm

Whoa,when does the apocalypse start?

Skeletor just agreed with O’Reilly

228 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:39:13pm

re: #226 Racer X

There is no way he will lose to Sarah Palin - and yes she will get the nomination.

I didn’t vote for Obama in 2008. If he’s up against Palin in 2012, I’m voting for Obama.

229 Soap_Man  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:39:20pm

re: #223 Charles

Terrifying Bill Passed During NBA Playoffs

With that, I’m out.

230 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:39:38pm

re: #219 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Seriously, it sucks for those people.

Nevertheless, if they’d been doing proper R&D on dealing with this kind of thing we wouldn’t be here now.

Like it or not, we need to put some kind of pressure on the oil companies or they just won’t feel the need to spend the money.

231 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:39:45pm

70% of America thinks Obama has handled this catastrophe poorly.

232 avanti  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:40:00pm

re: #219 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Might have something to do with the fact that you’re putting thousands out of work and not just for six months. Oil rigs can’t simply be turned on and off at the flick of a switch, you’re talking months or years just to get them up and running again, let alone pumping out crude.

So we must keep them working without any action to prevent another spill ? Risking dumping more oil in the oceans and our shores might save some jobs, but at what cost.

233 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:40:04pm

Turned on Fox long enough to hear Monica Crowley say Palin was right that we shouldn’t be criticizing BP here as they’re a victim to…then switched back to MSNBC.

234 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:40:20pm

re: #226 Racer X

There is no way he will lose to Sarah Palin - and yes she will get the nomination.

If he loses it will not be to Palin. There is no way she gets the nomination. She may get numbers slightly better than Ron Paul in the primaries though.

235 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:40:20pm

Lakers have to win 2 to take the championship.

236 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:40:22pm

re: #231 Racer X

Poll link plz? :D

237 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:40:28pm

re: #227 OldnGrumpy

Whoa,when does the apocalypse start?

Skeletor just agreed with O’Reilly

Alan Colmes is a tool.

238 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:40:36pm

re: #215 Racer X

You forgot to mention her new titties.

May they soon start to sag.

239 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:40:43pm

re: #235 Charles

Lakers have to win 2 to take the championship.

But they only have to win one tonight.
:)

240 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:40:51pm

re: #226 Racer X

There is no way he will lose to Sarah Palin - and yes she will get the nomination.

Oil will be over $150 a barrel, the recession will be in full swing. Micky Mouse could run against him and still win.

241 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:40:53pm

re: #234 The Shadow Do

If he loses it will not be to Palin. There is no way she gets the nomination. She may get numbers slightly better than Ron Paul in the primaries though.

Cato has been in the past willing to put money on that idea. You a bettin’ man?

242 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:41:44pm

re: #238 Cato the Elder

May they soon start to sag.

I’d never heard about Palin’s fake titties until she brought them up the other day (verbally, that is).

243 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:41:45pm

If Boston wins, it’s over for the Lakers. It’s do or die.

244 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:42:00pm

re: #228 Gus 802

I didn’t vote for Obama in 2008. If he’s up against Palin in 2012, I’m voting for Obama.

Entirely Concur. I’d hate doing that, but I will do it.

245 tradewind  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:42:02pm

re: #224 windsagio
They wanted the WH. They actually thought, the more radical of them, that a Democratic victory would assure Cheney and Bush being perp-walked in chains. Obama wasn’t nearly as liberal sounding during the campaign as many would have preferred, but Kos led the charge…. ’ do you want to win, or not? ‘

246 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:42:14pm

re: #209 avanti

Oddly, most of the flack coming from the right involves the six month suspension of drilling. It’s better to keep folks working on rigs, and screw the risks of yet another disaster I guess.

Yes.
There have been decades of drilling with no incident.
Decades.
So, now we should punish all the companies who have managed to drill safely?

There have been wells drilled in 10,000 feet of water, safely.

BP IGNORED standard warning signs of problems, and even test results showing there were problems, they were so anxious to finish this well and move on to save some money.

And avanti, it isn’t just the people working on the rigs. There are all sorts of businesses that exist to SUPPORT the oil industry - supply boats, helicopters, food supply, catering, restaurants, hotels … all of those businesses are done for, and people out of work.

The impact of this is huge. No one seems to understand that.

247 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:42:30pm

Gibbs is getting nonsense questions, what a waste. This is American Idol.

248 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:42:42pm

re: #232 avanti

So we must keep them working without any action to prevent another spill ? Risking dumping more oil in the oceans and our shores might save some jobs, but at what cost.

I think it has become pretty clear to those paying attention that this was a people problem and not technology per se. This will not happen again. It is profoundly bad to stop production. It is like closing down a police force because a corrupt precinct was ID’d.

249 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:42:50pm

re: #243 Charles

If Boston wins, it’s over for the Lakers. It’s do or die.

If Boston wins, I lose a case of Stella Artois. Go Lakers!

250 tradewind  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:43:06pm

re: #241 windsagio
She’s not going to run, barring some very weird circumstances.
Romney, or someone we haven’t thought much about yet.

251 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:43:07pm

re: #233 darthstar

Turned on Fox long enough to hear Monica Crowley say Palin was right that we shouldn’t be criticizing BP here as they’re a victim to…then switched back to MSNBC.

What a joke. Bottom line, it was BP’s fault. It was there rig and their operation. I don’t care about the MMS, Obama or past presidents, etc. The fault lies with the people on the pointy end of the plane and that was BP.

252 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:43:33pm

re: #235 Charles

Lakers have to win 2 to take the championship.

One at a time. If they win tonight, the Celts will not want to play a game 7 in LA.

253 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:44:15pm

re: #240 Bagua

Oil will be over $150 a barrel, the recession will be in full swing. Micky Mouse could run against him and still win.

Are you eerily in touch with the prescient Sigma-X?

254 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:44:22pm

Putting a prosecute in charge of MMS, heh.

255 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:44:26pm

re: #251 Gus 802

Their not there. I hate the spelling mistake. PIMF

256 avanti  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:44:49pm

re: #240 Bagua

Oil will be over $150 a barrel, the recession will be in full swing. Micky Mouse could run against him and still win.

That gloomy forecast is your only hope. We are no longer in recession, the stock market is way up, jobs are slowly returning, sorry about that.

257 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:44:56pm

re: #250 tradewind

She’s not going to run, barring some very weird circumstances.
Romney, or someone we haven’t thought much about yet.

someone we haven’t thought much about yet… and whoever they are they will win.

258 Jaerik  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:45:27pm

The mandatory flag pin and “god bless America” sign-off annoys the crap out of me.

I appreciate the meaning. But they are both very recently invented media traditions that have their foundations in political cynicism and posturing. It annoyed me coming from Bush, and it annoys me coming from Obama too.

259 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:45:32pm

re: #256 avanti

That gloomy forecast is your only hope. We are no longer in recession, the stock market is way up, jobs are slowly returning, sorry about that.

you are delusional

260 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:45:51pm

re: #253 Cato the Elder

Are you eerily in touch with the prescient Sigma-X?

Ok,

Oil will likely be over $150 a barrel, the recession will likely be in full swing.

261 Jetpilot1101  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:45:55pm

re: #256 avanti

That gloomy forecast is your only hope. We are no longer in recession, the stock market is way up, jobs are slowly returning, sorry about that.

If you think the recession is over because the stock market is way up, you have a lot to learn about the stock market.

262 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:45:56pm

re: #230 windsagio

Seriously, it sucks for those people.

Nevertheless, if they’d been doing proper R&D on dealing with this kind of thing we wouldn’t be here now.

Like it or not, we need to put some kind of pressure on the oil companies or they just won’t feel the need to spend the money.

What “pressure”? The oil companies are just going to pull up sticks and move to friendly waters. Every day those rigs sit there, not drilling, not pumping, is money out of their pockets. They’re not going to simply sit there for six months, then call everybody back, turn on the power, and return to work. Your “pressure” has just handicapped, if not contributed to the death, of domestic oil production.

263 tradewind  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:45:59pm

re: #246 reine.de.tout
I’m out, but this is for you, Reine. It gets me every time and makes me miss the years I lived in NoLa…

264 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:46:01pm

re: #256 avanti

That gloomy forecast is your only hope. We are no longer in recession, the stock market is way up, jobs are slowly returning, sorry about that.

You look kinda cool in those rose colored shades, man.

265 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:46:02pm

Here you go. For you BP oil spill dart board…

Image: Tony_Hayward_500xvar.jpg

266 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:46:53pm

re: #256 avanti

That gloomy forecast is your only hope. We are no longer in recession, the stock market is way up, jobs are slowly returning, sorry about that.

Yes, today. The moratorium will not affect the economy retroactively.

267 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:47:00pm

re: #246 reine.de.tout

Again, Reine… This kind of accident is inevitable. People get lazy, companies cut corners, things happen.

They woudln’t be facing this crisis or moratorium if they’d bothered to develop methods to deal with it.

268 avanti  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:47:06pm

re: #246 reine.de.tout

Yes.
There have been decades of drilling with no incident.
Decades.
So, now we should punish all the companies who have managed to drill safely?

There have been wells drilled in 10,000 feet of water, safely.

BP IGNORED standard warning signs of problems, and even test results showing there were problems, they were so anxious to finish this well and move on to save some money.

And avanti, it isn’t just the people working on the rigs. There are all sorts of businesses that exist to SUPPORT the oil industry - supply boats, helicopters, food supply, catering, restaurants, hotels … all of those businesses are done for, and people out of work.

The impact of this is huge. No one seems to understand that.

OK, I’ll be honest here, I’d rather see $4.00 gas than see the gulf destroyed for decades. Jobs are being lost by the spill too.

269 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:47:19pm

re: #262 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

What “pressure”? The oil companies are just going to pull up sticks and move to friendly waters. Every day those rigs sit there, not drilling, not pumping, is money out of their pockets. They’re not going to simply sit there for six months, then call everybody back, turn on the power, and return to work. Your “pressure” has just handicapped, if not contributed to the death, of domestic oil production.

I am not moved to tears.

270 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:47:34pm

re: #256 avanti

Which is depressing. Its akin to hoping for failure for political gain.

271 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:48:05pm

BP has created a new medical anomaly: TILT : Toxin Induced Lack of Tolerance. People working on the clean-up are getting ill when they return to their own homes and smell normal household supplies.

272 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:48:22pm

Another nonsense question from a random nitwit, this Gibbs thing is useless.

273 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:48:34pm

re: #271 darthstar

Hardly new tho’. Ask someone whose worked in housekeeping.

274 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:49:07pm

re: #270 windsagio

Which is depressing. Its akin to hoping for failure for political gain.

Liar. No one is “hoping” for failure.

275 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:49:08pm

re: #269 Cato the Elder

I am not moved to tears.

So putting thousands to tens of thousands out of jobs when our economy is only shakily dragging itself back to its feet is a good thing in your opinion?

276 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:49:21pm

re: #270 windsagio

Which is depressing. Its akin to hoping for failure for political gain.

Wishing for President Obama (and America) to fail is the GOP’s best chance at taking control of the House in November so they can force the President to continue to fail until 2012 and bring someone like Sarah Palin into the White House after which everything will be perfect and happy again.

277 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:49:22pm

re: #272 Bagua

Another nonsense question from a random nitwit, this Gibbs thing is useless.

A lot of press conferences are like that.

278 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:49:26pm

re: #236 windsagio

Poll link plz? :D


I heard that figure on the radio today. A quick google search shows
63% think he should be doing more.

I’m sure there are polls out there to tell all kinds of numbers. Bottom line: Obama is not handling this one well at all.

279 avanti  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:49:32pm

re: #259 brookly red

you are delusional

Give me a real link that shows we are in still in a recession, the market is down and we are losing jobs than. I know you see the worse, but facts are inconvenient.

280 prairiefire  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:49:57pm

re: #256 avanti

Stocks closed up 213 points to end the day at 10404. The credit crises fears within the EU are fading.

281 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:50:03pm

re: #240 Bagua

Oil will be over $150 a barrel, the recession will be in full swing. Micky Mouse could run against him and still win.

There is more bailout money on it’s way. Lots more.

282 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:50:47pm

re: #279 avanti

Give me a real link that shows we are in still in a recession, the market is down and we are losing jobs than. I know you see the worse, but facts are inconvenient.

I don’t need a link…
hey any body here need a job?

283 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:50:54pm

re: #199 Walter L. Newton

You must have missed the part where talkers Schultz, Obermann, Mathews, Hartmann and more of the hard left media are pissed off too?

Hi Walter…I did see Mathews once talking about the blue dress…I mute Obermann on Sunday night Football.. I was so glad ESPN fired that putz..
I’m lame with politico…I admit it…Wanna get me excited? Lets talk about Rush and his comments about a black quarterback and the media.. I have always said I will never forgive him until he admits to a mistake and asks for forgiveness for such media crassness…From day one here and a trillion posts.. I have always had an issue with Rush here about when you got fired from ESPN.. If you are reading this…
Congratulations on getting Married.. I wish you eternal happiness and I don’t hate you..But until you address this I can never respect you..
Pride goes before the fall Rush…Please address this Rush..
/ Dude..Having Elton play at your wedding had to be the coolest thing in the world…But Rush..We have an issue..Please address this soon..I don’t give a fuck about your politics…

284 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:51:02pm

re: #244 Dark_Falcon

Entirely Concur. I’d hate doing that, but I will do it.

I will pull a KT and skip the election if it comes down to that.

285 Boogberg  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:51:06pm

re: #235 Charles

Lakers have to win 2 to take the championship.

THAT’S what I needed to know. Thanks.

286 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:51:07pm

re: #276 darthstar

People on this very blog have actually said exactly that, once or twice >>

287 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:51:11pm

re: #275 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

So putting thousands to tens of thousands out of jobs when our economy is only shakily dragging itself back to its feet is a good thing in your opinion?

Fuck ‘em until they get their shit together.

288 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:51:15pm

re: #281 Racer X

There is more bailout money on it’s way. Lots more.

Good…I’m willing to put up with an extra hunk of debt if it keeps Americans from losing their jobs, their homes, etc. Once we’re stable, we can reduce spending. Right now, it’s what we need.

289 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:51:27pm

re: #277 Dark_Falcon

A lot of press conferences are like that.

It is bizarre, he just got a “think of the children” question.

290 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:51:34pm

Mac OS 10.6.4 update released…

[Link: www.versiontracker.com…]

291 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:51:43pm

re: #274 Bagua

“Akin”, and again at least one person copped to it a few months back, here.

292 Jetpilot1101  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:51:45pm

re: #280 prairiefire

Stocks closed up 213 points to end the day at 10404. The credit crises fears within the EU are fading.

The stock market goes up and down like a monkey on crack. The credit crisis in the EU is just getting warmed up my friend. Greece was cut to junk, Spain, Portugal, Italy, and Ireland are waiting in the wings.

With all that being said, if you want to make money in this market, trade the F’s.

293 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:52:00pm

re: #280 prairiefire

Stocks closed up 213 points to end the day at 10404. The credit crises fears within the EU are fading.

cool now if it would just gain another 4,000 points we would be back to pre BO numbers…

294 OldnGrumpy  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:52:04pm

re: #282 brookly red

I don’t need a link…
hey any body here need a job?

Yep,34 yrs experience,6 months 200 applications later,0 offers.

295 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:52:07pm

re: #243 Charles

If Boston wins, it’s over for the Lakers. It’s do or die.

I expect Kobe’s greatest game tonight

296 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:52:28pm

re: #279 avanti

Give me a real link that shows we are in still in a recession, the market is down and we are losing jobs than. I know you see the worse, but facts are inconvenient.

We need roughly 400,000 new jobs a month to keep up with growth. We produced 41,000 private sector jobs last month. The rest were temporary Census jobs that will be gone by summer’s end. Meanwhile the restocking of shelves that folks said would lead to new jobs is pretty much over as customers have started closing their pocketbooks again. The states and locals are back in the bread line, asking Congress for more money to make ends meet because they’ve already burned through their stimulus dollars.

Now pass the bong.

297 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:52:52pm

re: #289 Bagua

It is bizarre, he just got a “think of the children” question.

The press love those, it makes it look like they care.

298 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:52:57pm

re: #282 brookly red

12% unemployed in my state, 33+% in my industry.

299 avanti  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:52:57pm

re: #270 windsagio

Which is depressing. Its akin to hoping for failure for political gain.

That’s exactly what happens, the market goes down one day, and the right wing blogs are all over it. When it goes way up like today, silence. The same with the polls they wait breathlessly for a one day low outer, but keep quite when he gets a bounce.

300 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:53:06pm

re: #291 windsagio

“Akin”, and again at least one person copped to it a few months back, here.

A few months ago? It is irrelevant to what we are discussing now.

301 Reginald Perrin  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:53:18pm

ExxonMobil CEO Rex Tillerson told Congress we must do everything possible to prevent offshore drilling disasters, because once they occur, there is not any way to stop the damage.

“There will be impacts as we are seeing. We have never represented anything different than that. That’s why the emphasis is always on preventing these things from occurring because when they happen we are not well equipped to deal with them. And that’s just a fact of the enormity of what we’re dealing with.”

302 Boogberg  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:53:21pm

What channel is the game on?

303 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:53:23pm

re: #286 windsagio

People on this very blog have actually said exactly that, once or twice >>

Yes, well, we knew when President Obama won that the response would lack reason. I don’t hold it against them, though. For eight years they were able to turn a blind eye to the problems in this country and simply wave little flags and put yellow ribbons on their SUVs…it’s hard to recover from that kind of holiday.

304 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:53:44pm

re: #302 Boogberg

What channel is the game on?

ABC.

305 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:54:01pm

re: #282 brookly red

I don’t need a link…
hey any body here need a job?

I posted a position recently. 150 applicants in 2 days. Thats about 3 times more than last year. Same position.

306 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:54:31pm

re: #287 Cato the Elder

Fuck ‘em until they get their shit together.

So, when you running for public office? That would make a great campaign slogan: “Fuck the unemployed!”

307 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:54:35pm

re: #293 brookly red

cool now if it would just gain another 4,000 points we would be back to pre BO numbers…



You mean late 2007?

C’mon now.

308 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:54:37pm

re: #302 Boogberg

What channel is the game on?

ABC

309 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:54:42pm

re: #288 darthstar

Good…I’m willing to put up with an extra hunk of debt if it keeps Americans from losing their jobs, their homes, etc. Once we’re stable, we can reduce spending. Right now, it’s what we need.

Perhaps a spending reduction might help as well?

310 Boogberg  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:54:42pm

re: #304 Charles

Thanks Bro.

311 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:54:43pm

Christina Aguilera singing the anthem.

Thread coming up in 5.

312 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:54:45pm

re: #302 Boogberg

What channel is the game on?

ABC

313 bratwurst  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:54:48pm

re: #293 brookly red

cool now if it would just gain another 4,000 points we would be back to pre BO numbers…

That’s odd…I am sure I saw the market open at 8279.63 the day Obama took office. What was it today?

314 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:54:54pm

re: #297 Dark_Falcon

The press love those, it makes it look like they care.

What nonsense, videos and questions from “Jim” and “john”. Lucky the issue is not important I guess.

315 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:55:01pm
316 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:55:21pm

re: #298 Rightwingconspirator

12% unemployed in my state, 33+% in my industry.

can I get a witness?

317 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:55:23pm

re: #311 Charles

Christina Aguilera singing the anthem.

Thread coming up in 5.

Is that who that is? You’d think in Los Angeles they could find someone who could actually sing.

318 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:55:25pm

re: #288 darthstar

Good…I’m willing to put up with an extra hunk of debt if it keeps Americans from losing their jobs, their homes, etc. Once we’re stable, we can reduce spending. Right now, it’s what we need.

You think maybe, just maybe that money goes somewhere other than to poor out of luck homeowners? What I see are states and municipalities that can’t make budget. How bout bailing them out, still a good thing?

319 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:55:28pm

re: #295 HoosierHoops

I expect Kobe’s greatest game tonight

I expect not to give a damn one way or the other.

320 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:55:34pm

re: #295 HoosierHoops

I expect Kobe’s greatest game tonight

From your mouth to God’s ears.

Game 7 is going to be awesome!

321 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:55:57pm

re: #300 Bagua

Not really. There’s certainly precedent.

322 avanti  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:56:10pm

re: #282 brookly red

I don’t need a link…
hey any body here need a job?


I only said things are getting better, not that it’s perfect. i.e. gaining over 100,000 jobs is better than losing 700,000, but it’s a long road back.
You are predicting the worse based more on the dislike of the POTUS than statistics.

323 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:56:13pm

re: #306 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

So, when you running for public office? That would make a great campaign slogan: “Fuck the unemployed!”

Fuck the oil industry.

324 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:56:19pm

re: #317 darthstar

I’m certain protools is involved, don’t fret!

325 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:56:33pm

re: #295 HoosierHoops

I expect Kobe’s greatest game tonight

Paul Pierce, MVP redux?

326 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:56:51pm

re: #322 avanti


You are predicting the worse based more on the dislike of the POTUS than statistics.

Could sum up this whole thread really.

327 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:56:52pm

re: #309 Racer X

Perhaps a spending reduction might help as well?

Yep…I’m all for cutting a half-billion out of our military budget.

328 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:56:52pm

re: #313 bratwurst

That’s odd…I am sure I saw the market open at 8279.63 the day Obama took office. What was it today?

the sell off occurred between the time he was elected & the time he was sworn in… funny that.

329 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:57:23pm

re: #309 Racer X

Whatta ya wanna cut?

Specifically?

330 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:57:42pm

re: #319 Cato the Elder

I expect not to give a damn one way or the other.

Well my brother..Have I ever asked you to give damn about anything?
*wink*

331 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:57:49pm

re: #323 Cato the Elder

Fuck the oil industry.

Zealot

332 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:58:16pm

re: #328 brookly red

I linked the damn official Dow Jones chart up above Brookly. It doesn’t really reflect what you’re saying.

333 albusteve  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:58:17pm

thread?

334 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:58:21pm

re: #323 Cato the Elder

Fuck the oil industry.

Yeah!

I’m totally OK with $9 a gallon gas. And the resulting explosion in price of everything else because of it.

335 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:58:33pm

re: #322 avanti

I only said things are getting better, not that it’s perfect. i.e. gaining over 100,000 jobs is better than losing 700,000, but it’s a long road back.
You are predicting the worse based more on the dislike of the POTUS than statistics.

no I am basing my dislike of the POTUS on the statistics…

336 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:58:36pm

re: #323 Cato the Elder

Fuck the oil industry.

Thing is that the oil industry isn’t going down alone. You got entire economies tied up into supporting the rigs, the refineries, the depots, and everything in between. Those Gulf Coast cities are getting a double whammy, both to the oil and to government bungling.

337 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:58:48pm

re: #326 windsagio

Could sum up this whole thread really.

Call a waaambulance!

338 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:59:19pm

re: #334 Racer X

Yeah!

I’m totally OK with $9 a gallon gas. And the resulting explosion in price of everything else because of it.

Cool! I like the taste of grass and bark.

339 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:59:31pm

re: #334 Racer X

Yeah!

I’m totally OK with $9 a gallon gas. And the resulting explosion in price of everything else because of it.

Me too. The Europeans have put up with those kinds of prices for years and they’re doing fine. Americans are spoiled by artificially low gas prices.

340 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:59:31pm

re: #334 Racer X

Yeah!

I’m totally OK with $9 a gallon gas. And the resulting explosion in price of everything else because of it.

America - the land where cheap gas is guaranteed by the constitution.

341 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 5:59:35pm

How on earth does the present disaster in the Gulf represent an opportunity for the USA to achieve independence from imported oil? It seems to me that the opposite is true, at least until the leak is stopped and the drilling resumes and is increased.

342 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:00:25pm

re: #339 darthstar

Me too. The Europeans have put up with those kinds of prices for years and they’re doing fine. Americans are spoiled by artificially low gas prices.

Nonsense, that is a complete distortion.

343 HoosierHoops  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:00:28pm

Game time Lizards!
Wonder what the black mamba is going to do?
He could be deadly

344 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:00:32pm

re: #329 windsagio

Whatta ya wanna cut?

Specifically?

There are hundreds of things I would cut. Today.

Starting with a mandatory 10% salary cut for every single government worker making over 100 grand a year. That is just ridiculous.

345 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:00:57pm

re: #341 Spare O’Lake

How on earth does the present disaster in the Gulf represent an opportunity for the USA to achieve independence from imported oil? It seems to me that the opposite is true, at least until the leak is stopped and the drilling resumes and is increased.

Beneficial Crisis.

346 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:01:18pm

re: #287 Cato the Elder

Fuck ‘em until they get their shit together.

That was your response to this?

re: #275 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

So putting thousands to tens of thousands out of jobs when our economy is only shakily dragging itself back to its feet is a good thing in your opinion?

I’m speechless.
Just speechless.

There is no reason for it to happen, other than the President wants to score some political points with the right people.

And those stupid idiot redneck heathens in Louisiana don’t happen to be it.
I’m outta here for a bit.

347 avanti  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:01:19pm

re: #293 brookly red

cool now if it would just gain another 4,000 points we would be back to pre BO numbers…

Could I get a link to the market being over 14,000 at the end of Bush’s term please ? I recall hearing something about a failing economy hurting McCain, but you may have better data.

348 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:01:23pm

re: #342 Bagua

Nonsense, that is a complete distortion.

I paid $4 a gallon in 2000 when I lived in the UK. It went as high as $8 a gallon last year (when it was around $4 here). It’s not a distortion at all.

349 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:01:25pm

re: #341 Spare O’Lake

How on earth does the present disaster in the Gulf represent an opportunity for the USA to achieve independence from imported oil? It seems to me that the opposite is true, at least until the leak is stopped and the drilling resumes and is increased we get serious about other forms of energy.

Shove your drilling platforms down your gas tank.

350 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:01:34pm

In the next presidential election the GOP contender will start by asking America “are you better off today than 4 years ago ?”

done deal.

351 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:01:35pm

re: #339 darthstar

Me too. The Europeans have put up with those kinds of prices for years and they’re doing fine. Americans are spoiled by artificially low gas prices.

Well there it is then.

We must be more like Europe.

352 freetoken  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:01:52pm

re: #298 Rightwingconspirator

12% unemployed in my state, 33+% in my industry.

Is that photography/imaging? Certainly for many years it has been a bad business, if one wanted it to be the sole source of income. Yes, there are commercial photographers in NYC who make lots of money, but I know here in SD that it is sort of a dead end. One has to go to LA to get work, I’ve been told.

353 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:01:57pm

re: #346 reine.de.tout

{reine.de.tout}

Bagua weeps with you.

354 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:02:31pm

Fuck. The. Oil. Industry.

355 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:02:43pm

re: #344 Racer X

There are hundreds of things I would cut. Today.

Starting with a mandatory 10% salary cut for every single government worker making over 100 grand a year. That is just ridiculous.

What if they can make more than that for the same job in the private sector? Won’t they quit?

356 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:02:44pm

re: #348 darthstar

I paid $4 a gallon in 2000 when I lived in the UK. It went as high as $8 a gallon last year (when it was around $4 here). It’s not a distortion at all.

Of course it is, you haven’t a clue what you are saying.

357 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:02:44pm

re: #351 Racer X

Well there it is then.

We must be more like Europe.

In more ways than one. First, let’s get rid of our pathetic nanny FCC.

358 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:02:59pm

re: #345 Bagua

Beneficial Crisis.

Can’t let one of those go to waste.

359 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:03:07pm

re: #355 Spare O’Lake

What if they can make more than that for the same job in the private sector? Won’t they quit?

Riiiight.

360 Racer X  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:03:25pm

I’m out.

361 darthstar  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:03:52pm

Okay…Laker time. I’m off to the new thread.

362 Jetpilot1101  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:04:10pm

re: #354 Cato the Elder

Fuck. The. Oil. Industry.

I think someone is sad they didn’t short BP 57 days ago.

363 avanti  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:04:17pm

re: #309 Racer X

Perhaps a spending reduction might help as well?

I’d like to see someone have the balls to start slowly raising the retirement age for SS for folks decades from retirement. I’m 68, on SS and still well able to work.

364 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:05:35pm

re: #348 darthstar

You said:

Me too. The Europeans have put up with those kinds of prices for years and they’re doing fine. Americans are spoiled by artificially low gas prices.

That is bullshit. The oil and gas prices are traded on the open market. They only pay more at the pump because of the additional taxes and tariffs they add on. They get their tax money this way. It is voluntary.

365 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:05:35pm

re: #336 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Thing is that the oil industry isn’t going down alone. You got entire economies tied up into supporting the rigs, the refineries, the depots, and everything in between. Those Gulf Coast cities are getting a double whammy, both to the oil and to government bungling.

So, basically, let’s just keep doin’ the shit that caused the problem.

Bang your head against the wall, because the last time you did it, the wall hurt your head. Damn wall!

366 bratwurst  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:05:48pm

re: #328 brookly red

the sell off occurred between the time he was elected & the time he was sworn in… funny that.

The market closed at 9319 (ie 1100 points LOWER than today) the day before he was elected and 8176 the week before he was elected.

[Link: daytradingstockblog.blogspot.com…]

[Link: daytradingstockblog.blogspot.com…]

Anything else you’d care to pull out of your ass this evening?

367 avanti  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:06:17pm

re: #350 brookly red

In the next presidential election the GOP contender will start by asking America “are you better off today than 4 years ago ?”

done deal.

I hope you are correct, that would be a low bar to get over. The market will likely be up 60% or better, jobs being gained, not lost and the rest.

368 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:06:43pm

re: #339 darthstar

Me too. The Europeans have put up with those kinds of prices for years and they’re doing fine. Americans are spoiled by artificially low gas prices.

That’s what I always love, this flippant attitude towards losing “cheap gas,” because hey, the Europeans get along fine with it. And if it gets too expensive to drive, I’ll just use public transportation, car pool, or even walk!

Then you get to the grocery store, or get your electrical bill, or any of the other of dozens sectors of our economy that rely upon cheap oil to keep prices down. If your food bill doubled or tripled, would it still seem like such a great thing for gas to be so expensive?

369 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:07:16pm

re: #354 Cato the Elder

Fuck. The. Oil. Industry.

That sums up Obama’s speech nicely.

370 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:07:17pm

re: #349 Cato the Elder
Obama is also anti-nuke.
Let’s get real.

371 avanti  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:07:26pm

re: #366 bratwurst

The market closed at 9319 (ie 1100 points LOWER than today) the day before he was elected and 8176 the week before he was elected.

[Link: daytradingstockblog.blogspot.com…]

[Link: daytradingstockblog.blogspot.com…]

Anything else you’d care to pull out of your ass this evening?

Don’t try and confuse him with facts.

372 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:07:36pm

Ever have to clean up a sun spill??

I’m just saying.

373 freetoken  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:07:53pm

re: #370 Spare O’Lake

Obama is also anti-nuke.
Let’s get real.

Oh? What evidence do you have?

374 Jetpilot1101  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:08:02pm

re: #367 avanti

I hope you are correct, that would be a low bar to get over. The market will likely be up 60% or better, jobs being gained, not lost and the rest.

So you are calling DOW 16,000 by the time the next election rolls around? I like your attitude but we’ll be lucky if we are above 10000 in two years.

375 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:08:06pm

re: #367 avanti

I hope you are correct, that would be a low bar to get over. The market will likely be up 60% or better, jobs being gained, not lost and the rest.

I really do hope you are right…

376 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:08:18pm

re: #372 Ojoe

Ever have to clean up a sun spill??

I’m just saying.

Where do you live?

377 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:08:21pm

re: #363 avanti

I’d like to see someone have the balls to start slowly raising the retirement age for SS for folks decades from retirement. I’m 68, on SS and still well able to work.

Are you available next Thursday? I need someone to cut the lawn and put out some chairs for a party I’m having.

378 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:08:34pm

Brent crude futures have barely moved. Crude oil is still cheap. If the futures were going to respond in a catastrophic manner they would have done so already. High oil prices and a recession are counter-intuitive. The futures market isn’t run by a bunch of reactionaries that would force the price of oil higher than it could sustain to maintain a profit.

All told in 2007 Gulf of Mexico Federal Offshore Oil total 414 million barrels. That puts it somewhere between the production of Iraq and Brazil.

379 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:08:41pm

re: #365 Cato the Elder

So, basically, let’s just keep doin’ the shit that caused the problem.

Bang your head against the wall, because the last time you did it, the wall hurt your head. Damn wall!

You wanna close down deep-water drilling, go ahead. At least you can say that deep-water drilling is problematic and should be shut down until it can be handled. But a blanket moratorium is not a solution, it’s an economic disaster.

380 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:09:04pm

re: #363 avanti

I’d like to see someone have the balls to start slowly raising the retirement age for SS for folks decades from retirement. I’m 68, on SS and still well able to work.

Freedom 95!!!

381 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:09:07pm

re: #370 Spare O’Lake

Obama is also anti-nuke.
Let’s get real.

But he is pro-unicorn generated power.

382 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:09:48pm

re: #378 Gus 802

Brent crude futures have barely moved. Crude oil is still cheap. If the futures were going to respond in a catastrophic manner they would have done so already. High oil prices and a recession are counter-intuitive. The futures market isn’t run by a bunch of reactionaries that would force the price of oil higher than it could sustain to maintain a profit.

All told in 2007 Gulf of Mexico Federal Offshore Oil total 414 million barrels. That puts it somewhere between the production of Iraq and Brazil.

It’s not about a shortage of oil. There is plenty. It’s about easily accessible oil.

383 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:10:49pm

re: #371 avanti

Don’t try and confuse him with facts.

look we are in deep economic trouble… the exact day things started to tank I was incorrect on but at our current debt level I don’t see things improving & neither do the Chinese.

384 avanti  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:11:26pm

re: #374 Jetpilot1101

So you are calling DOW 16,000 by the time the next election rolls around? I like your attitude but we’ll be lucky if we are above 10000 in two years.

Fuzzy math again, if the market was at 8000 pre BO, 60% up would be 12800 and that’s doable.

385 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:11:40pm

re: #373 freetoken

Oh? What evidence do you have?

Yucca Mtn.
Do you have evidence of actions he has taken to show he is in favour of massive expansion of the nuke program?

386 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:11:48pm

re: #378 Gus 802

Brent crude futures have barely moved. Crude oil is still cheap. If the futures were going to respond in a catastrophic manner they would have done so already. High oil prices and a recession are counter-intuitive. The futures market isn’t run by a bunch of reactionaries that would force the price of oil higher than it could sustain to maintain a profit.

All told in 2007 Gulf of Mexico Federal Offshore Oil total 414 million barrels. That puts it somewhere between the production of Iraq and Brazil.

Gus, the increase doesn’t happen like that. This is a reduction in cumulative new production. The futures markets will predict this, that is why they are the futures markets.

387 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:11:56pm

re: #379 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

You wanna close down deep-water drilling, go ahead. At least you can say that deep-water drilling is problematic and should be shut down until it can be handled. But a blanket moratorium is not a solution, it’s an economic disaster.

What “blanket moratorium”? As I understand it, the moratorium is on new drilling.

I see nothing wrong with that.

388 Jetpilot1101  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:12:11pm

re: #384 avanti

Fuzzy math again, if the market was at 8000 pre BO, 60% up would be 12800 and that’s doable.

Sorry, I thought you meant up 60% from today’s level. Your math is correct as was mine, we were just using different reference points.

389 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:12:16pm

re: #372 Ojoe

Northern Calif.

I’ve never seen sunlight goo up the feathers of a pelican.

There are some things we should have been developing for a long time now & solar power in all its manifestations is at the top of the list.

390 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:13:05pm

re: #382 researchok

It’s not about a shortage of oil. There is plenty. It’s about easily accessible oil.

Yeah. Deep water isn’t exactly easily accessible. I checked the chart I linked and that amounted to 313 million barrels for 2007 which as at a depth of 200 meters or greater.

391 bratwurst  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:13:44pm

re: #383 brookly red

the exact day things started to tank I was incorrect on

To say the least.

392 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:13:54pm

re: #386 Bagua

Gus, the increase doesn’t happen like that. This is a reduction in cumulative new production. The futures markets will predict this, that is why they are the futures markets.

I don’t think it will have such a large impact. If so, I will eat my shoe.

393 researchok  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:14:29pm

re: #389 Ojoe

Northern Calif.

I’ve never seen sunlight goo up the feathers of a pelican.

There are some things we should have been developing for a long time now & solar power in all its manifestations is at the top of the list.

OK

I agree. My only issue is with the environmentalists who want to block transmission lines. There are a whole lot of them and that seems to be a choice method of attack.

394 avanti  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:14:39pm

re: #383 brookly red

look we are in deep economic trouble… the exact day things started to tank I was incorrect on but at our current debt level I don’t see things improving & neither do the Chinese.

That’s because you assume the POTUS is going to put us in the tank because you don’t like his policies and I get that.Hell, the right still does not give Clinton any credit for the boom years we had.
IMHO, it’s pretty hard for the POTUS to have as much of a effect as many would like to believe.

395 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:15:07pm

Crack addict: “This goddamn crack has ruined my life. Must develop new sources of crack. And preserve the jobs of crack-dealers everywhere! Think of the eeeconomeee!”

396 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:15:12pm

re: #378 Gus 802

The futures market isn’t run by a bunch of reactionaries that would force the price of oil higher than it could sustain to maintain a profit.

Unfortunately it is, have you forgotten the 2008 high of $147 bbl? Which then plunged to $33, and is now at $77? It is all based on wild speculation.

397 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:15:33pm

We need cars with better gas mileage because the economy’s in the tank.

398 ryannon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:16:11pm

re: #362 Jetpilot1101

I think someone is sad they didn’t short BP 57 days ago.

I think someone is going on a serious and not very pretty bender.

399 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:16:31pm

re: #382 researchok

It’s not about a shortage of oil. There is plenty. It’s about easily accessible oil.

It is also about America oil. The new production will be there, but it will come from Brazil and Africa where the rigs are going.

400 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:16:58pm

re: #393 researchok

Those types of environmentalists are nuts,

not like the Ducks Unlimited environmentalists.

Oh well BBL.

Dinnertime…

401 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:17:36pm

re: #392 Gus 802

I don’t think it will have such a large impact. If so, I will eat my shoe.

I’ll happily make a gentleman’s bet.

402 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:17:37pm

re: #387 Cato the Elder

What “blanket moratorium”? As I understand it, the moratorium is on new drilling.

I see nothing wrong with that.

That’s 33 rigs that are being shut down, rigs that will likely not be there in six months, as the oil companies will have moved them to friendly waters. Louisiana is already predicting 10,000 people in the state alone will lose their jobs to this moratorium, most in cities that are also getting the economic impact of this oil on their shipping and fishing industries.

403 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:17:40pm

re: #391 bratwurst

re: #394 avanti

we are 13 trillion in debt… talk semantics all you want. That fact is not debatable.

404 avanti  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:17:44pm

re: #388 Jetpilot1101

Sorry, I thought you meant up 60% from today’s level. Your math is correct as was mine, we were just using different reference points.

Nope, I started with the assumption of the “Are we better off today than 4 years ago line”, not a tough goal to meet.
If we are better off economically, and not at war, that will make him hard to beat.

405 freetoken  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:18:48pm

re: #385 Spare O’Lake

Yucca Mtn.
Do you have evidence of actions he has taken to show he is in favour of massive expansion of the nuke program?

Well, he certainly nominated several people into high office that are encouraging/planning the use of more nuclear energy. Also, anti-nuke organizations criticized Obama when he was a Senator and then a candidate because, get this, he wouldn’t take up their anti-nuke cause.

Yucca Mtn is in NV, and the Nevadans apparently don’t want nuclear “waste” shipped there because they elected a Senator, Reid, who explicitly campaigned on stopping it/slowing it down. Reid then became majority leader, and thus can effectively implement the wishes of his constituency.

It’s called Representative Democracy, and it’s what we do down here.

And finally, as I mention always when Yucca Mtn. is brought up, those who are truly looking at the future of nuclear energy know that the real benefit would be to not dump the “waste” in a mountain somewhere but to use it, because the “waste” is actually a more potent form of nuclear energy potential than the original Uranium. However, to make use of it will require a new generation of reactors, and that involves manipulating highly radioactive isotopes, such a Plutonium, and thus necessitates the highest of safety and security procedures.

406 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:19:20pm

re: #402 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

That’s 33 rigs that are being shut down, rigs that will likely not be there in six months, as the oil companies will have moved them to friendly waters. Louisiana is already predicting 10,000 people in the state alone will lose their jobs to this moratorium, most in cities that are also getting the economic impact of this oil on their shipping and fishing industries.

Yep. Gotta keep doing the same damned things we’ve been doing, or shit’s gonna happen. We have no choice. None whatsoever.

407 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:19:56pm

re: #396 Bagua

Unfortunately it is, have you forgotten the 2008 high of $147 bbl? Which then plunged to $33, and is now at $77? It is all based on wild speculation.

I’m still optimistic. Which is counter-intuitive for my typical cynicism. OPEC and other producers can easily take up the slack to cover the 313 million barrels. Plus I even just read this:

OPEC Cuts Forecast Demand for Its Crude as Outside Supply Rises

June 9 (Bloomberg) — The Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries said it will need to pump less crude than previously thought this year as production from outside the group increases more than forecast.

OPEC, which produces about 40 percent of the world’s oil, estimates members will need to produce 28.77 million barrels of crude a day to satisfy demand for the year, according to its monthly oil market report. That’s about 70,000 barrels a day fewer than last month’s projection. The producer group left its forecast for world oil demand for this year unchanged.

“This would leave no room for additional crude oil supplies in the market,” the Vienna-based secretariat said in a monthly report today. “Oil market fundamentals continue to be impacted by the persistent overhang in supply.”

CONTINUES

Now, I am ignoring the impact it will have on the Gulf Coast states which is a different matter however it will create a drag on any recovery.

408 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:20:11pm

re: #406 Cato the Elder

The oil will evaporate too! Totally gone forever.

409 bratwurst  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:20:38pm

re: #403 brookly red

re: #394 avanti

we are 13 trillion in debt… talk semantics all you want. That fact is not debatable.

Move those goalposts!

410 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:21:56pm

re: #409 bratwurst

Move those goalposts!

deny that problem!

411 prairiefire  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:22:28pm

re: #328 brookly red

the sell off occurred between the time he was elected & the time he was sworn in… funny that.

Ya, funny how George Bush gripped the lectern in Sept. 2008, turned white as a ghost, and said if congress did not act, the US economy was going to collapse.

412 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:22:47pm

re: #406 Cato the Elder

Yep. Gotta keep doing the same damned things we’ve been doing, or shit’s gonna happen. We have no choice. None whatsoever.

Boy, I’m glad that you’re worried about the people of the Gulf Coast. They lose their job drilling for oil, so they’ll go into fishing and shipping…oh wait, they can’t because the Deepwater Horizon spill has killed those industries too. Well, don’t worry, there’s always government assistance.

/

413 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:23:25pm

re: #407 Gus 802

Now, I am ignoring the impact it will have on the Gulf Coast states which is a different matter however it will create a drag on any recovery.

The drop is in the US domestic production. As the US is the biggest customer, this will impact price. The US will become more and more at the mercy of those producers.

Also, even should the oil price remain flat. The money will go overseas, not stay in the US. The tax on production will go to Brazil, not the US. All the hundreds of thousands of support jobs will go overseas. So even with a flat oil price the economic damage is vast.

414 avanti  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:24:04pm

re: #403 brookly red

re: #394 avanti

we are 13 trillion in debt… talk semantics all you want. That fact is not debatable.

We were further in debt compared to GDP in World War II and came back nicely. WWII spending put America to work, but we went way into debt.

415 teros  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:24:16pm

re: #269 Cato the Elder

“I am not moved to tears.”

Then it appears you’re missing the point. If the deep water platforms pull up stakes from the Gulf of Mexico because of the administration’s ill-considered moratorium and relocate to the water off North Africa, the results of the next failure will likely be even worse than what we’re seeing today.

Obama’s “we need alternative energy now” pronouncements do nothing to change our limited alternatives to fossil fuels. Short of a massive expansion of our nuclear generating capacity (and I’ve seen only the most cursory nod to that possibility out of the administration), we will continue to be dependent upon oil and gas to meet our energy needs for the foreseeable future. Proponents of drilling in ANWR have always faced the “you won’t get any appreciable benefit for at least ten years” argument. Similarly, wind and water have decades to go before they can make a dent in our energy requirements.

Full steam ahead on alternative energy is a good idea, but forcing oil and gas exploration to move to shores even less regulated than our own is short-sighted at best.

416 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:24:59pm

President Wishful Thinking: “I am deeply concerned with the loss of jobs in our inner-city neighborhoods because of the war on drugs. Hard-working drug dealers have been put out of business for no good reason, and we must ensure that they can get back on their feet. Therefore, I am rescinding all anti-drug laws and measures, effective immediately. We must wait until the demand for drugs magically dries up before we take action that could harm the livelihoods of dishonest folk.”

417 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:25:32pm

re: #414 avanti

We were further in debt compared to GDP in World War II and came back nicely. WWII spending put America to work, but we went way into debt.

yes because we still had a manufacturing base… that base is gone now.

418 prairiefire  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:25:40pm

re: #415 teros

“I am not moved to tears.”

Then it appears you’re missing the point. If the deep water platforms pull up stakes from the Gulf of Mexico because of the administration’s ill-considered moratorium and relocate to the water off North Africa, the results of the next failure will likely be even worse than what we’re seeing today.

Obama’s “we need alternative energy now” pronouncements do nothing to change our limited alternatives to fossil fuels. Short of a massive expansion of our nuclear generating capacity (and I’ve seen only the most cursory nod to that possibility out of the administration), we will continue to be dependent upon oil and gas to meet our energy needs for the foreseeable future. Proponents of drilling in ANWR have always faced the “you won’t get any appreciable benefit for at least ten years” argument. Similarly, wind and water have decades to go before they can make a dent in our energy requirements.

Full steam ahead on alternative energy is a good idea, but forcing oil and gas exploration to move to shores even less regulated than our own is short-sighted at best.

Welcome, hatchling.

419 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:26:58pm

re: #412 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Boy, I’m glad that you’re worried about the people of the Gulf Coast. They lose their job drilling for oil, so they’ll go into fishing and shipping…oh wait, they can’t because the Deepwater Horizon spill has killed those industries too. Well, don’t worry, there’s always government assistance.

/

What’s the problem. They can work for the Census. President Obama has already put 600,000 people to work that way… while states are laying off fireman, police and teachers… who also can get Census jobs… and someday, the agency will be so large, that we can change their name to Thought Police and the Census people can count the Census people.

420 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:27:09pm

re: #416 Cato the Elder

President Wishful Thinking: “I am deeply concerned with the loss of jobs in our inner-city neighborhoods because of the war on drugs. Hard-working drug dealers have been put out of business for no good reason, and we must ensure that they can get back on their feet. Therefore, I am rescinding all anti-drug laws and measures, effective immediately. We must wait until the demand for drugs magically dries up before we take action that could harm the livelihoods of dishonest folk.”

Who are you calling “dishonest”? The rig-workers, their families, and the businesses that support them?

421 teros  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:27:31pm

re: #418 prairiefire

Thanks!

422 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:27:40pm

re: #403 brookly red

re: #394 avanti

we are 13 trillion in debt… talk semantics all you want. That fact is not debatable.

That’s just the national debt.
View the following link is not for the faint of heart:
[Link: www.usdebtclock.org…]

423 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:27:53pm

re: #416 Cato the Elder

President Wishful Thinking: “I am deeply concerned with the loss of jobs in our inner-city neighborhoods because of the war on drugs. Hard-working drug dealers have been put out of business for no good reason, and we must ensure that they can get back on their feet. Therefore, I am rescinding all anti-drug laws and measures, effective immediately. We must wait until the demand for drugs magically dries up before we take action that could harm the livelihoods of dishonest folk.”

You’re equating drug dealers with oil industry workers, fisherman and the gulf coast tourist trade… big leap there Ranger.

424 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:28:37pm

re: #416 Cato the Elder

President Wishful Thinking: “I am deeply concerned with the loss of jobs in our inner-city neighborhoods because of the war on drugs. Hard-working drug dealers have been put out of business for no good reason, and we must ensure that they can get back on their feet. Therefore, I am rescinding all anti-drug laws and measures, effective immediately. We must wait until the demand for drugs magically dries up before we take action that could harm the livelihoods of dishonest folk.”

Lol, Oil = Crack Cocaine.

Nonsense.

425 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:29:37pm

re: #412 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Boy, I’m glad that you’re worried about the people of the Gulf Coast. They lose their job drilling for oil, so they’ll go into fishing and shipping…oh wait, they can’t because the Deepwater Horizon spill has killed those industries too. [Therefore, we must drill the fuck out of the Gulf even more than in the past, and just hope everything turns out for the best.] Well, don’t worry, there’s always government assistance. [Because God forbid we should assist people rather than encourage them to fuck the environment hard and deep and bloody.]

Dumbass.

426 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:29:43pm

re: #405 freetoken

So in other words nothing has actually been done yet except to close down the main waste storage site.

427 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:30:33pm

re: #413 Bagua

The drop is in the US domestic production. As the US is the biggest customer, this will impact price. The US will become more and more at the mercy of those producers.

Also, even should the oil price remain flat. The money will go overseas, not stay in the US. The tax on production will go to Brazil, not the US. All the hundreds of thousands of support jobs will go overseas. So even with a flat oil price the economic damage is vast.

Is that moratorium include currently operating deep water rigs or is that for drilling or both?

428 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:30:42pm

re: #420 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Who are you calling “dishonest”? The rig-workers, their families, and the businesses that support them?

The shits who employ them.

429 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:32:30pm

re: #405 freetoken

Well, he certainly nominated several people into high office that are encouraging/planning the use of more nuclear energy. Also, anti-nuke organizations criticized Obama when he was a Senator and then a candidate because, get this, he wouldn’t take up their anti-nuke cause.

Yucca Mtn is in NV, and the Nevadans apparently don’t want nuclear “waste” shipped there because they elected a Senator, Reid, who explicitly campaigned on stopping it/slowing it down. Reid then became majority leader, and thus can effectively implement the wishes of his constituency.

It’s called Representative Democracy, and it’s what we do down here.

And finally, as I mention always when Yucca Mtn. is brought up, those who are truly looking at the future of nuclear energy know that the real benefit would be to not dump the “waste” in a mountain somewhere but to use it, because the “waste” is actually a more potent form of nuclear energy potential than the original Uranium. However, to make use of it will require a new generation of reactors, and that involves manipulating highly radioactive isotopes, such a Plutonium, and thus necessitates the highest of safety and security procedures.

The ban in the US of recycling nuclear waste should be lifted.

430 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:32:53pm

re: #427 Gus 802

Is that moratorium include currently operating deep water rigs or is that for drilling or both?

Drilling not production. But it interrupts wells in progress, they have to be shut in and abandoned.

If the President used the same principles, he will have to shut down most land drilling as well for a few years.

431 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:33:01pm

re: #415 teros

Welcome. You sound useful.

432 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:33:24pm

re: #423 Walter L. Newton

The problem is that to some degree those people are in dead-end jobs as it is (on the macro scale), we all agree that the US needs to get off of the oil teat, its a terrible situation for the people who work in the industry, but they’re gonna have to face it eventually no matter what.

433 Macha  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:33:45pm

The game is on so I’ll just make a quick statement. I don’t hear anyone blaming the whole corporate choke hold on America that has been the real villian in this whole oil thing. Both the Dems and the Repubs have been in bed with them to the point that any safety, regulation or oversight is a joke. And that goes for many other industries as well. People would rather shout and scream at BHO or Bush or their politician of choice than look at the real problem. The bottom line is that the corporations are controlling gov’t just as much as the trusts did in the 1800s. As to the moratorium on drilling it, at the least gives us a shot at making sure there isn’t another existing disaster looming already in place, before sinking more wells that might be just as iffy. I’m not dismissing the whole economic impact. There simply isn’t an easy fix anywhere on the horizon. I just thank my lucky stars that Sarah Palin isn’t the President when this happened. Can you imagine?

434 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:34:15pm

Growth and jobs forever, and fuck the world!

435 avanti  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:34:16pm

re: #417 brookly red

yes because we still had a manufacturing base… that base is gone now.

That’s why I agree with the POTUS we should become a leader in green tech. i.e. we can make wind turbines cheaper here than shipping from China, even with the lower labor costs.

436 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:35:12pm

re: #428 Cato the Elder

The shits who employ them.

Who, as I said, are just going to pick up sticks and move the fuck on. The rig-workers, the folks who support them, and the cities that rely upon their tax dollars, are fucked good and hard. That’s tens of thousands of jobs that are gone and are never coming back, just like the manufacturing jobs that have gone overseas. But the suits are going to be sitting pretty a year from now, because those rigs will be in Brazilian waters, in African waters, in South Pacific waters.

437 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:35:17pm

re: #417 brookly red

yes because we still had a manufacturing base… that base is gone now.

Thanks to you and your union-hating bitch-ass “conservatives”.

438 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:36:18pm

re: #435 avanti

That’s why I agree with the POTUS we should become a leader in green tech. i.e. we can make wind turbines cheaper here than shipping from China, even with the lower labor costs.

nice in the long run I will agree…

439 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:36:22pm

re: #430 Bagua

Drilling not production. But it interrupts wells in progress, they have to be shut in and abandoned.

If the President used the same principles, he will have to shut down most land drilling as well for a few years.

That means reduced production won’t be as bad as I thought. I’m sure the probability of another BOP failure like this is minimal. They’re under a lot of pressure to lift the moratorium.

440 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:36:25pm

re: #432 windsagio

The problem is that to some degree those people are in dead-end jobs as it is (on the macro scale), we all agree that the US needs to get off of the oil teat, its a terrible situation for the people who work in the industry, but they’re gonna have to face it eventually no matter what.

What nonsense. There would be work for their children’s lifetime. The employment will move to other countries, but not the employees.

441 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:36:49pm

re: #420 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Who are you calling “dishonest”? The rig-workers, their families, and the businesses that support them?

Apparently.
And he’s not alone.
Other choice comments from some other blogs:

Izanagi said…
Don’t you notice anything else about the cross tabs in this poll? As is often the case with the deep south on just about anything involving the federal government and, more importantly, which party controls it, there is a glaring racial divide. Louisiana, Alabama and Mississipi are completely irrelevant to Obama’s 2012 political calculus in part because, the majority of their voters would’nt give him a chance no matter how he tried. Nobody has yet died from this, unlike Katrina, but of course, these guys loved Bush, no matter how much of a simpleton he was at anything. Such is the life of America’s cultural laggard also known as the South.

Anonymous said…
The reason the people of LA think W did a better job on Katrina than Obama is doing on the oil disaster is simple….. They’re stupid! They’re all rednecks and they don’t see anything wrong with raping the earth…..as long as they get to have their gumbo, they’re happy!

JUNE 15, 2010 6:19 PM

442 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:37:48pm

re: #435 avanti

That’s why I agree with the POTUS we should become a leader in green tech. i.e. we can make wind turbines cheaper here than shipping from China, even with the lower labor costs.

You’re being sold snake-oil, my friend. China’s building coal-burning plants by the fuck-ton, same with nukes. They’re also buying up oil like it’s going out of style and on the way to eventually matching and finally passing us as the world’s largest consumer. Green tech sells well to the rubes, but they know that it isn’t going to fuel the sort of growth they’re looking at for the immediate term.

443 alexknyc  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:37:57pm

re: #441 reine.de.tout

“Nobody has yet died from this.”

What?

444 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:38:07pm

I don’t understand the optimism of the stock martkets in the face of such severere: #434 Cato the Elder

Growth and jobs forever, and fuck the world!

By the sweat of thy brow shalt thou eat bread.

445 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:38:19pm

Looks like the Lakers are going to win.

446 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:38:44pm

A job is a job.

Pity the poor people who are screwing the environment. They must be allowed to continue screwing it, because a job is a job.

447 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:39:05pm

re: #435 avanti

That’s why I agree with the POTUS we should become a leader in green tech. i.e. we can make wind turbines cheaper here than shipping from China, even with the lower labor costs.

You know… I’m just gonna say this once tonight. I worked for 13 years at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory… left there in 2005. Where as for over 30 years the lab has been making wonderful advances in numerous areas of renewable energy research, there is not one single renewable source that would currently come close to even paying for itself.

If you want this wonderful, non-existent, currently non-affordable technology right now… then the country is going to have to come up with some way to pay for it… because right now it’s not going to happen without almost total subsidies.

That’s the choice. There is no other magic bullet.

448 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:39:15pm

re: #440 Bagua

What nonsense. There would be work for their children’s lifetime. The employment will move to other countries, but not the employees.

Absolutely.
Some of these jobs pay very well ($60,000 - $80,000) for people with a HS diploma and no skills.
They will not be making that sort of money on “unemployment”, nor will they be able to make that sort of money in other local jobs.

Any hopes for a better life for their kids just went down the drain

But hey, it’s OK - it’s only the laggard, dullard south.

449 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:40:01pm

re: #444 Spare O’Lake

By the sweat of thy brow shalt thou eat bread.

And never mind who gets screwed - I’ve got my paycheck, Jack!

450 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:40:13pm

re: #434 Cato the Elder

Growth and jobs forever, and fuck the world!

Let them eat cake!

451 brookly red  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:40:47pm

re: #450 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Let them eat cake!

I fear that it will come to that.

452 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:41:45pm

re: #439 Gus 802

That means reduced production won’t be as bad as I thought. I’m sure the probability of another BOP failure like this is minimal. They’re under a lot of pressure to lift the moratorium.

A minimum of100,000 to 200,000 per day for the initial six month moratorium. (Note that the MC252 looks to be capable of that.) Rinse and repeat because it would take a minimum of three years to start up again, and probably a decade to get up to speed. This guarantees US domestic supply will start to decline.

453 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:42:05pm

re: #448 reine.de.tout

Absolutely.
Some of these jobs pay very well ($60,000 - $80,000) for people with a HS diploma and no skills.
They will not be making that sort of money on “unemployment”, nor will they be able to make that sort of money in other local jobs.

Any hopes for a better life for their kids just went down the drain

But hey, it’s OK - it’s only the laggard, dullard south.

Yeah, as long as your kids get a better life, screw the fucking planet!

It has nothing to do with the south - if it were in the northeast, they’d be the planet-fuckers.

454 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:42:33pm

re: #434 Cato the Elder

Growth and jobs forever, and fuck the world!

By the sweat of thy brow shalt thou eat bread.

455 webevintage  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:42:46pm

re: #196 Dark_Falcon

Palin: “We have to know that Obama’s number one priority is stopping the leak.”

If you seriously doubt that, Sarah, you’re dumber than I thought.

She actually said that?
What a fucking idiot.

456 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:43:33pm

Just saw a page that just blew me away.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

As an ordinary poster here, I’ll just register my hope that this page gets featured.

457 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:44:20pm

re: #449 Cato the Elder

And never mind who gets screwed - I’ve got my paycheck, Jack!

He did say that, Cato. But you seem to just want to issue the oil industry a beatdown and hang the consequences.

458 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:44:45pm

re: #446 Cato the Elder

A job is a job.

Pity the poor people who are screwing the environment. They must be allowed to continue screwing it, because a job is a job.

BP screwed the environment.
Not the other oil companies, who operated with safety in mind.
Not the PEOPLE working for those oil companies, or the people who owned or were employed by the companies that supported the oil industry.

I’m absolutely amazed to see, coming from several folks here who are all sympathetic to people losing their homes because they were over-extended and were sold a loan they couldn’t afford, to be so damned callous about the economic devastation about to befall thousands of families, from a decision that was NOT recommended by that panel of experts and in fact, the members of that panel of experts are coming out and saying that the blanket moratorium was NOT what the recommended and will do more harm than good.

I’m just - speechless.

459 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:44:54pm

re: #454 Spare O’Lake

By the sweat of thy brow shalt thou eat bread.

Shove your repetitive Bible quotes in your ear.

460 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:45:22pm

re: #453 Cato the Elder

Yeah, as long as your kids get a better life, screw the fucking planet!

It has nothing to do with the south - if it were in the northeast, they’d be the planet-fuckers.

My kid has a fine life, my hubby’s job is safe, we will be OK>
There are thousands who will NOT be.

It has every goddammed thing to do with where it happened.

461 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:46:17pm

re: #442 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

You’re being sold snake-oil, my friend. China’s building coal-burning plants by the fuck-ton, same with nukes. They’re also buying up oil like it’s going out of style and on the way to eventually matching and finally passing us as the world’s largest consumer. Green tech sells well to the rubes, but they know that it isn’t going to fuel the sort of growth they’re looking at for the immediate term.

You forgot to mention India.

462 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:46:22pm

re: #455 webevintage

She actually said that?
What a fucking idiot.

Yes, she actually said that. In doing so, she proven to me once again that we’re better off with Obama than her.

463 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:47:30pm

re: #457 Dark_Falcon

He did not say that, Cato. But you seem to just want to issue the oil industry a beatdown and hang the consequences.

PIMF

464 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:47:36pm

re: #449 Cato the Elder
It’s God’s curse upon mankind’s expulsion from the Garden of Eden - probably the truest words in the bible.
B’zeat apeha tochal lechem - By the sweat of thy brow shalt thou eat bread.

465 webevintage  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:47:37pm

re: #458 reine.de.tout

BP screwed the environment.
Not the other oil companies, who operated with safety in mind.
Not the PEOPLE working for those oil companies, or the people who owned or were employed by the companies that supported the oil industry.

The thing is do we trust the other oil companies?
I would say they have just been lucky.
Isn’t it better to be safe then sorry?

(all of this reflects my extreme distrust of most corporations who I assume will always cut corners to save a few bucks and hope they don’t get caught.)

466 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:48:13pm

Yep.

We are going to transition to a post-oil economy whilst preserving all the oil jobs.

It’s magical unicorns that will help us!

467 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:48:43pm

re: #461 Bagua

You forgot to mention India.

And Poland too.

/

Seriously, pushing this “We’ve got to beat China” business is a joke. China’s growing like a weed and anybody who thinks that growth is being feed by windmills and solar panels alone is in line for the oceanfront property I have for offer in Nevada.

468 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:49:15pm

re: #464 Spare O’Lake

It’s God’s curse upon mankind’s expulsion from the Garden of Eden - probably the truest words in the bible.
B’zeat apeha tochal lechem - By the sweat of thy brow shalt thou eat bread.

The Garden of Eden is a big fat fucking myth.

469 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:49:17pm

re: #465 webevintage

The thing is do we trust the other oil companies?
I would say they have just been lucky.
Isn’t it better to be safe then sorry?

(all of this reflects my extreme distrust of most corporations who I assume will always cut corners to save a few bucks and hope they don’t get caught.)

No, they have not just been “lucky”.
I understand your mistrust.
Wells out there get “kicks” every day.
And the folks on them know it’s a warning sign, and know exactly what to do to prevent a blowout, and they do it.
BP did NOT do it, by calculated STUPID decision.

470 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:49:22pm

re: #466 Cato the Elder

Yep.

We are going to transition to a post-oil economy whilst preserving all the oil jobs.

It’s magical unicorns that will help us!

You mean the ones who’ll help up convert to all “alternative energies” and “alternative fuels” without massive government expenditure and overnight?

471 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:49:48pm

re: #466 Cato the Elder

Yep.

We are going to transition to a post-oil economy whilst preserving all the oil jobs.

It’s magical unicorns that will help us!

There is no post-oil economy available that does not involve riding donkeys and living a primitive lifestyle.

472 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:50:14pm

re: #464 Spare O’Lake

It’s God’s curse upon mankind’s expulsion from the Garden of Eden - probably the truest words in the bible.
B’zeat apeha tochal lechem - By the sweat of thy brow shalt thou eat bread.

Cato does know that, Spare. You’re not doing anything wrong, but make sure you’re ready to debate any theology you bring up. Cato won’t back down from such a challenge.

473 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:50:41pm

re: #458 reine.de.tout

This oil accident can be traced to greed and the bean counters.

It is an ancient cause

This accident is a lesson in morality & if the Bible were being written now I bet this oil spill would have a book, and a prophet condemning it.

474 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:51:06pm

re: #468 Cato the Elder

The Garden of Eden is a big fat fucking myth.

Yer shittin’ me!

475 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:51:24pm

re: #443 alexknyc

“Nobody has yet died from this.”

What?

Dunno.
The guy making that comment of course, MUST know what he’s talking about, because, after all, it’s only the laggard south that’s stupid.

476 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:53:13pm

re: #475 reine.de.tout

Dunno.
The guy making that comment of course, MUST know what he’s talking about, because, after all, it’s only the laggard south that’s stupid.

How tiresome.

The entire world is stupid.

477 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:53:45pm

re: #469 reine.de.tout

No, they have not just been “lucky”.
I understand your mistrust.
Wells out there get “kicks” every day.
And the folks on them know it’s a warning sign, and know exactly what to do to prevent a blowout, and they do it.
BP did NOT do it, by calculated STUPID decision.

I feel for the oil workers, just as I feel for the fishermen I’ve known at Bayou le Batre. The problem is that we have to know that the industry conditions, those which produced that stupid BP decision, are not built in to the other companies.

478 webevintage  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:54:13pm

re: #469 reine.de.tout

No, they have not just been “lucky”.
I understand your mistrust.
Wells out there get “kicks” every day.
And the folks on them know it’s a warning sign, and know exactly what to do to prevent a blowout, and they do it.
BP did NOT do it, by calculated STUPID decision.

Thanks.
I’m actually glad to hear that it really is a problem with BP and not the other companies to a large extent.

479 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:55:22pm

re: #476 Cato the Elder

The entire world is stupid.

Just most of it.

LGF wouldn’t be here it the whole world was actually stupid.

480 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:56:25pm

re: #458 reine.de.tout

BP screwed the environment.
Not the other oil companies, who operated with safety in mind.
Not the PEOPLE working for those oil companies, or the people who owned or were employed by the companies that supported the oil industry.

I’m absolutely amazed to see, coming from several folks here who are all sympathetic to people losing their homes because they were over-extended and were sold a loan they couldn’t afford, to be so damned callous about the economic devastation about to befall thousands of families, from a decision that was NOT recommended by that panel of experts and in fact, the members of that panel of experts are coming out and saying that the blanket moratorium was NOT what the recommended and will do more harm than good.

I’m just - speechless.

Apparently they’re going to wait to see what recommendations come out of this panel. Keep in mind thought that there are people calling for the complete cessation of any and all drilling operations in the Gulf of Mexico.

481 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:57:52pm

re: #477 Decatur Deb

I feel for the oil workers, just as I feel for the fishermen I’ve known at Bayou le Batre. The problem is that we have to know that the industry conditions, those which produced that stupid BP decision, are not built in to the other companies.

Well.
I happen to know it, because I’ve been married for 20 years to a mud engineer, and he has no reason to lie to me. I’ve had phone conversations with him during a job, where he’s told me “We got a kick today had to shut everything down”. Or, problem with the formation, we’re not gonna make a well. Or whatever.

Then there’s been his “take” on this thing. He knew within a week what had happened, and why. So did all the rigs out there. First thing they did was start reviewing their policies and operations, to make sure such an incident could not occur on their rigs. But of course, no one has reported that. Not a bit “sexy”, is it, to report that sort of thing.

482 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:58:06pm

re: #477 Decatur Deb

The problem is that we have to know that the industry conditions, those which produced that stupid BP decision, are not built in to the other companies.

The conditions are built right in to any unregulated or under-regulated profit making enterprise, the more so as the commonly agreed morality erodes.

It will be a tough road back to more responsibility.

483 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:58:25pm

We MUST continue to fuck the planet - jobs are at stake!

484 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:58:52pm

re: #472 Dark_Falcon

Cato does know that, Spare. You’re not doing anything wrong, but make sure you’re ready to debate any theology you bring up. Cato won’t back down from such a challenge.

I know that. I’m not interested in debating theology, I was simply pointing out the universal truth that most folks need to work hard for a living at whtever jobs they can get. And they can’t afford to be too picky about it either.

485 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 6:58:58pm

re: #480 Gus 802

Apparently they’re going to wait to see what recommendations come out of this panel. Keep in mind thought that there are people calling for the complete cessation of any and all drilling operations in the Gulf of Mexico.

Gus - there is a complete cessation of all driling operations, that’s what the moratorium is all about.

There isn’t cessation of current production going on, as I understand it.
But that’s a whole other thing entirely.

486 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:00:39pm

re: #483 Cato the Elder

We MUST continue to fuck the planet - jobs are at stake!

Yes we must.
But let’s try to fuck it as gently as possible.

487 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:00:45pm

re: #481 reine.de.tout

I have found, in areas that I know about, that the media almost never reports the fundamental technical facts, the ones that might actually be useful.

If they do report them, the report is way way late.

In the meanwhile they talk a lot because they love to hear themselves.

488 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:00:58pm

re: #483 Cato the Elder

We MUST continue to fuck the planet - jobs are at stake!

Where is the steel and composites for those windmills coming from? What’s powering the plants where they’re manufactured? Or the heavy equipment that puts them up?

It ain’t pixie dust and moonbeams.

489 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:01:14pm
490 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:01:14pm

re: #477 Decatur Deb

I feel for the oil workers, just as I feel for the fishermen I’ve known at Bayou le Batre. The problem is that we have to know that the industry conditions, those which produced that stupid BP decision, are not built in to the other companies.

The fishermen will be back to work within a year of the final shut off, if they even have to wait that long. Their suffering is real, but a tiny fraction of the losses from the moratorium which will last a decade at least and involve far more money.

491 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:02:12pm

re: #485 reine.de.tout

Gus - there is a complete cessation of all driling operations, that’s what the moratorium is all about.

There isn’t cessation of current production going on, as I understand it.
But that’s a whole other thing entirely.

I meant permanently. That is some are unhappy with just seeing a 6 month moratorium and wanted to hear Obama say that it should be ended. That’s some of the responses I’m seeing related to the speech. Responses on the internet though and not here.

492 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:02:16pm

re: #481 reine.de.tout

Well.
I happen to know it, because I’ve been married for 20 years to a mud engineer, and he has no reason to lie to me. I’ve had phone conversations with him during a job, where he’s told me “We got a kick today had to shut everything down”. Or, problem with the formation, we’re not gonna make a well. Or whatever.

Then there’s been his “take” on this thing. He knew within a week what had happened, and why. So did all the rigs out there. First thing they did was start reviewing their policies and operations, to make sure such an incident could not occur on their rigs. But of course, no one has reported that. Not a bit “sexy”, is it, to report that sort of thing.

The conditions I’m worried about are more likely to prevail in the boardrooms than on the rigs. BP management didn’t just screw the shrimp and the pelicans, it screwed the oil industry. Any president that fails to rattle their cages loudly is going to be put in the Jimmy Carter box.

493 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:02:22pm

re: #481 reine.de.tout

The problem is still that the suffering of the people in the industry aside, Its still simply not maintainable.

Every limitation we can do to development costs somebody a job, just about. Actions have costs.

494 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:02:45pm

re: #487 Ojoe

I have found, in areas that I know about, that the media almost never reports the fundamental technical facts, the ones that might actually be useful.

If they do report them, the report is way way late.

In the meanwhile they talk a lot because they love to hear themselves.

I will tell you, that most of what I’ve heard from the TV reporters reporting on this has been idiocy. They’ve got no clue what they’re seeing, or what it means.

Reports in print media have been better.

495 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:03:49pm

re: #490 Bagua

The fishermen will be back to work within a year of the final shut off, if they even have to wait that long. Their suffering is real, but a tiny fraction of the losses from the moratorium which will last a decade at least and involve far more money.

I hope you’re right, but the fish get a vote.

496 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:04:51pm

re: #458 reine.de.tout

It’s a terrible thing that so many people will be so devestated economically. I reminds me most of the Dust Bowl. I think that it’s entirely possible that Obama is overreacting, and in doing so, committing a grave mistake.

I do not agree with you that he’s doing this to score political points. He is getting attacked from all sides at once on this. From everywhere, and everyone. I think that Obama is enforcing this moratorium because he believes it is the right thing to do, and believes that because people he trusts have told him it is the right thing to do.

It may be a terrible decision, and it may be a tragic one. But I don’t see any reason to immediately conclude it’s just politics to him.

497 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:04:54pm

re: #493 windsagio

The problem is still that the suffering of the people in the industry aside, Its still simply not maintainable.

Every limitation we can do to development costs somebody a job, just about. Actions have costs.

False.

498 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:05:27pm

re: #492 Decatur Deb

The conditions I’m worried about are more likely to prevail in the boardrooms than on the rigs. BP management didn’t just screw the shrimp and the pelicans, it screwed the oil industry. Any president that fails to rattle their cages loudly is going to be put in the Jimmy Carter box.

I agree.
and BP needs its cage rattled

re: #493 windsagio

The problem is still that the suffering of the people in the industry aside, Its still simply not maintainable.

Every limitation we can do to development costs somebody a job, just about. Actions have costs.

Yes, yes yes.
Very easy to say, isn’t it, in the abstract, when you don’t know an actual human being who has been affected.
Nice.

499 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:05:45pm

re: #494 reine.de.tout

TV news announcers have been referred to as “meat puppets.”

The ones on “Futurama” are pretty good.

500 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:07:30pm

I’m sorry if I stepped on anyone’s personal toes here.

There is such a thing as “right livelihood”. Just taking any available job because you need a paycheck is not good enough.

501 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:07:43pm

re: #495 Decatur Deb

I hope you’re right, but the fish get a vote.

The moratorium will not change the effects of the MC252 spill, but it could certainly prevent another similar spill.

502 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:09:26pm

re: #496 Obdicut

It’s a terrible thing that so many people will be so devestated economically. I reminds me most of the Dust Bowl. I think that it’s entirely possible that Obama is overreacting, and in doing so, committing a grave mistake.

I do not agree with you that he’s doing this to score political points. He is getting attacked from all sides at once on this. From everywhere, and everyone. I think that Obama is enforcing this moratorium because he believes it is the right thing to do, and believes that because people he trusts have told him it is the right thing to do.

It may be a terrible decision, and it may be a tragic one. But I don’t see any reason to immediately conclude it’s just politics to him.

It isn’t, entirely, and I know that, I was very angry when I wrote it.
I’m very frustrated and angry about this situation.

The panel of experts did NOT recommend this blanket moratorium, and in fact, have urged against it.

As have several Louisiana politicians, Mary Landrieu, Bobby Jindal.

I really don’t believe people understand how very very big the impact will be.

They’re thinking a few thousand folks out of jobs.
No.
Tens of thousands of folks out of jobs that for many, pay more than they will make elsewhere, given their education and skill level.
Businesses going out of business, closing, those employees out of work, with nothing to replace it.

503 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:09:56pm

re: #500 Cato the Elder

I’m sorry if I stepped on anyone’s personal toes here.

There is such a thing as “right livelihood”. Just taking any available job because you need a paycheck is not good enough.

Yeah, damn those rig-workers for being away from their families for days and weeks at a time, breaking their backs to put food on the table and clothes on their kids backs, working thankless jobs simply to be demonized when their bosses decide to bend or break the rules to make a few more bucks.

They should be working real jobs…like out doing the Census.

/

504 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:10:09pm

re: #500 Cato the Elder

I’m sorry if I stepped on anyone’s personal toes here.
There is such a thing as “right livelihood”. Just taking any available job because you need a paycheck is not good enough.

It is if you or your family is hungry, unless you are including serious criminal acts.

505 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:10:29pm

re: #501 Bagua

The moratorium will not change the effects of the MC252 spill, but it could certainly prevent another similar spill.

Does the industry use a system safety process like the ISO 900x series? Something has to restore rational confidence that this isn’t a regular, predictable 10-yr cycle.

506 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:10:41pm

re: #494 reine.de.tout

I will tell you, that most of what I’ve heard from the TV reporters reporting on this has been idiocy. They’ve got no clue what they’re seeing, or what it means.

Reports in print media have been better.

Absolutely, it is amazing how misinformed they are, print media as well.

507 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:12:02pm

re: #497 Bagua

Actions don’t have costs? Damn.

508 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:13:58pm

re: #491 Gus 802

I meant permanently. That is some are unhappy with just seeing a 6 month moratorium and wanted to hear Obama say that it should be ended. That’s some of the responses I’m seeing related to the speech. Responses on the internet though and not here.

Gus - a six month moratorium is pretty permanent.
The rigs that are there now are the newest, most up-to-date rigs there are.

They are leaving. They will enter into long-term contracts with companies drilling off the coast of China or Brazil (who I’m not sure are nearly as environmentally concerned as we are), and they will not be back.

It takes years to build ONE RIG. They are not built overnight. And there are only a limited number of businesses doing it. A six month moratorium means drilling in the Gulf is essentially over for several years.

509 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:14:02pm

re: #506 Bagua

Absolutely, it is amazing how misinformed they are, print media as well.

That’s true in all news situations, from the point of view of someone inside the subject. When the news starts describing a DoD snafu, soldiers just bang their heads on a tent pole.

510 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:14:09pm

re: #498 reine.de.tout

I’ve acknowledged the human cost very many times Reine, if you’ve read other posts.

The problem is, there are plenty of times where people or governments have had to make decisions that were the right decisions, regardless of the cost to some people.


I understand your concern about this, I’d be worried as hell too. That doesn’t effect the fact that things need to change.

511 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:14:13pm

re: #504 Spare O’Lake

It is if you or your family is hungry, unless you are including serious criminal acts.

Criminal acts are in the eye of the beholder.

There are many, many jobs that are essentially immoral, thy stomach be damned.

512 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:14:19pm

re: #500 Cato the Elder

I’m sorry if I stepped on anyone’s personal toes here.

There is such a thing as “right livelihood”. Just taking any available job because you need a paycheck is not good enough.

I think it would be more than that. They would have to go from making 70,000 dollars a year to getting a part time job at Home Depot (if they’re lucky) and make 10,000 dollars a years. Then:

1. Foreclose on the house mortgage.
2. Stop payments on the truck or car and have it repossessed.
3. Declare chapter 7 or 11.
4. Move to either a leased (rental) apartment or house.

Now, if BP is going to pay for these peoples homes, cars, and bill then everything would be fine. Otherwise, they’re still negotiating if they will even allow them to sue BP for damages because of the moratorium. By then however we’re looking at a major disruption in peoples lives.

513 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:14:43pm

re: #505 Decatur Deb

Does the industry use a system safety process like the ISO 900x series? Something has to restore rational confidence that this isn’t a regular, predictable 10-yr cycle.

Yes and no. Depends on the piece of equipment. The BOPs have basically never been tested, we just have the opinions of the manufacturers that they work. The documentation is in a horrid state, there is no way to properly re-certify most of them without destroying them. They are old and unreliable, and probably never worked with the drill pipe used when they were made. Now that the drill pipe is much stronger… well you get the idea.

514 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:15:07pm

re: #502 reine.de.tout

I understand your frustration and anger, Reine, and I don’t really have anything more to say. I’m no expert in either macroeconomics or the oil and gas industry in practical terms. It’s a terrible, terrible tragedy, and I still cannot believe that BP led us to this point.

I keep thinking of something that my grandfather told me a long time ago. He was a tool-and-die machinist, who’d educated himself. He told me, wonderingly, sadly, one day, that there were people who would break a ten thousand part so that they could sit around for four hours while it got fixed, and there were people who would decide not to fix that part even though it meant a good chance of a man dying. He could never understand either point of view. I don’t, either. I don’t know how to deal with the fact that, obviously, we can have a system where an accident this catastrophic occurs.

It’s the complexity problem, over and over, everywhere I look. That and the human problem.

I wish you well, and I hope, somehow, some way, the blow on the people of the Gulf Coast is cushioned. Though I have no reason to believe it will be.

515 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:15:15pm

re: #508 reine.de.tout

Gus - a six month moratorium is pretty permanent.
The rigs that are there now are the newest, most up-to-date rigs there are.

They are leaving. They will enter into long-term contracts with companies drilling off the coast of China or Brazil (who I’m not sure are nearly as environmentally concerned as we are), and they will not be back.

It takes years to build ONE RIG. They are not built overnight. And there are only a limited number of businesses doing it. A six month moratorium means drilling in the Gulf is essentially over for several years.

Good point. I didn’t take that into consideration.

516 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:15:41pm

re: #512 Gus 802

I think it would be more than that. They would have to go from making 70,000 dollars a year to getting a part time job at Home Depot (if they’re lucky) and make 10,000 dollars a years. Then:

1. Foreclose on the house mortgage.
2. Stop payments on the truck or car and have it repossessed.
3. Declare chapter 7 or 11.
4. Move to either a leased (rental) apartment or house.

Now, if BP is going to pay for these peoples homes, cars, and bill then everything would be fine. Otherwise, they’re still negotiating if they will even allow them to sue BP for damages because of the moratorium. By then however we’re looking at a major disruption in peoples lives.

Boo-hoo.

Nothing compared to the disruption in all of our lives and those of all future generations if we don’t get off the oil tit.

517 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:15:51pm

re: #511 Cato the Elder

Criminal acts are in the eye of the beholder.

There are many, many jobs that are essentially immoral, thy stomach be damned.

Can you perhaps some that you don’t consider “immoral”?

518 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:16:19pm

Did anyone else see the asshole congressman today telling the BP CEO to commit hari kiri? I found it repulsive in the extreme.

519 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:16:25pm

re: #508 reine.de.tout

There you have the real news, that the regular media, lazy bastards that they are, will fail to report.

Thus the soporific public can have its feel-good dreams.

Sorry for the profanity.

But thank you for the information, reine.

520 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:16:46pm

re: #510 windsagio

I’ve acknowledged the human cost very many times Reine, if you’ve read other posts.

The problem is, there are plenty of times where people or governments have had to make decisions that were the right decisions, regardless of the cost to some people.

I understand your concern about this, I’d be worried as hell too. That doesn’t effect the fact that things need to change.

I don’t disagree that things have to change, and alternatives must be sought.

I do disagree vehemently that the proper way to do it is to throw tens of thousands of people out of work before the research has provided us with an alternative.

I understand the President has some very difficult decisions to make, and I don’t envy him.

But the moratorium as called by the President was NOT recommended by his panel of experts and in fact, they specifically said it would NOT be the best way to go about this.

If he isn’t going to follow the advice of these panels of experts he puts together, then why is he bothering to put ‘em together? Just make whatever pronouncement he wants.

521 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:17:22pm

re: #512 Gus 802

I think it would be more than that. They would have to go from making 70,000 dollars a year to getting a part time job at Home Depot (if they’re lucky) and make 10,000 dollars a years. Then:

1. Foreclose on the house mortgage.
2. Stop payments on the truck or car and have it repossessed.
3. Declare chapter 7 or 11.
4. Move to either a leased (rental) apartment or house.

Now, if BP is going to pay for these peoples homes, cars, and bill then everything would be fine. Otherwise, they’re still negotiating if they will even allow them to sue BP for damages because of the moratorium. By then however we’re looking at a major disruption in peoples lives.

And note for every oil worker there are 5 to 10 support jobs. The most reliable estimate I’ve heard is 100 to 200,000 jobs.

522 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:17:47pm

re: #516 Cato the Elder

Boo-hoo.

Nothing compared to the disruption in all of our lives and those of all future generations if we don’t get off the oil tit.

And what tit would you suggest we suckle on? You think that “alternative energy” will be cheap and installed overnight? Or that we can do it all without relying upon fossil fuels?

523 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:18:56pm

re: #516 Cato the Elder

Boo-hoo.

Nothing compared to the disruption in all of our lives and those of all future generations if we don’t get off the oil tit.

That’s not going to happen. In other words. These workers lives will be forever changed in most cases however it will have no impact on getting us off the “oil tit”. It will serve no purpose in the long run since we will be getting our oil from other sources.

524 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:20:14pm

re: #522 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

And what tit do you suggest we suckle on?

(current image, within the last few hours)

BBL

525 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:21:11pm

re: #523 Gus 802

That’s not going to happen. In other words. These workers lives will be forever changed in most cases however it will have no impact on getting us off the “oil tit”. It will serve no purpose in the long run since we will be getting our oil from other sources.

Ayep. Like most of the “immoral jobs” that once put fueled this economy, it’ll go overseas. Out of sight, out of mind. So what if it’s a little more expensive and we’re funneling billions into the pockets of states who’d like to see the lot of us burned in hellfire as infidels? At least we don’t have to worry about any more spills in our waters.

///

526 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:21:18pm

re: #522 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

And what tit would you suggest we suckle on?

Your man-boobs.

527 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:21:35pm

re: #512 Gus 802

I think it would be more than that. They would have to go from making 70,000 dollars a year to getting a part time job at Home Depot (if they’re lucky) and make 10,000 dollars a years. Then:

1. Foreclose on the house mortgage.
2. Stop payments on the truck or car and have it repossessed.
3. Declare chapter 7 or 11.
4. Move to either a leased (rental) apartment or house.

Now, if BP is going to pay for these peoples homes, cars, and bill then everything would be fine. Otherwise, they’re still negotiating if they will even allow them to sue BP for damages because of the moratorium. By then however we’re looking at a major disruption in peoples lives.

People’s lives are already disrupted. BP is not paying the claims people are making, or they are paying pennies on the dollar. They’ve mucked up the process royally.

528 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:22:10pm

re: #523 Gus 802

That’s not going to happen. In other words. These workers lives will be forever changed in most cases however it will have no impact on getting us off the “oil tit”. It will serve no purpose in the long run since we will be getting our oil from other sources.

Exactly.
This serves the purpose of making us more dependent on imports.
Great.

529 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:22:37pm

re: #524 Ojoe

And what tit do you suggest we suckle on?

(current image, within the last few hours)

BBL

Fusion’s still decades away and the only way solar power is going to work is with massive government spending. And that’s assuming that folks like Babs Boxer doesn’t jump in and declare all the open space “protected” and those off-limits.

530 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:23:00pm

re: #500 Cato the Elder

I’m sorry if I stepped on anyone’s personal toes here.

There is such a thing as “right livelihood”. Just taking any available job because you need a paycheck is not good enough.

Fie, sirrah! a bawd, a wicked bawd!
The evil that thou causest to be done,
That is thy means to live. Do thou but think
What ‘tis to cram a maw or clothe a back
From such a filthy vice: say to thyself,
From their abominable and beastly touches
I drink, I eat, array myself, and live.
Canst thou believe thy living is a life,
So stinkingly depending? Go mend, go mend.

Measure for Measure, Act III, Scene 2

531 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:23:15pm

re: #513 Bagua

Yes and no. Depends on the piece of equipment. The BOPs have basically never been tested, we just have the opinions of the manufacturers that they work. The documentation is in a horrid state, there is no way to properly re-certify most of them without destroying them. They are old and unreliable, and probably never worked with the drill pipe used when they were made. Now that the drill pipe is much stronger… well you get the idea.

Ouch—the refining side seems to have fairly decent standards (despite spectacular light-ups).

532 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:23:26pm

re: #510 windsagio

I’ve acknowledged the human cost very many times Reine, if you’ve read other posts.

The problem is, there are plenty of times where people or governments have had to make decisions that were the right decisions, regardless of the cost to some people.

I understand your concern about this, I’d be worried as hell too. That doesn’t effect the fact that things need to change.

Here ya go:
Engineers say Interior changed oil report after they signed it - moratorium may create additional safety hazards

533 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:23:31pm

re: #526 Cato the Elder

Your man-boobs.

Cato, I hate to hurt your feelings, but you’re not my type.

534 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:23:40pm

re: #511 Cato the Elder

Criminal acts are in the eye of the beholder.

There are many, many jobs that are essentially immoral, thy stomach be damned.

It’s a personal choice whether to compromise in order to eat…and I acknowledge that it takes a strong person to go hungry rather than to work at an activity which the person does not believe is moral.
However, I will not condemn anyone who does an honest day’s work for an honest day’s pay, so long as the activity is legal according to the laws of the place where the work is done.

535 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:24:21pm
re: #513 Bagua

Yes and no. Depends on the piece of equipment. The BOPs have basically never been tested, we just have the opinions of the manufacturers that they work. The documentation is in a horrid state, there is no way to properly re-certify most of them without destroying them. They are old and unreliable, and probably never worked with the drill pipe used when they were made. Now that the drill pipe is much stronger… well you get the idea.


Exactly.
The BOP was a last resort.
These things have been being handled up front, when the first warning signs appear.

536 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:24:39pm

re: #527 reine.de.tout

People’s lives are already disrupted. BP is not paying the claims people are making, or they are paying pennies on the dollar. They’ve mucked up the process royally.

The working man is always the one that suffers. My prediction? BP is going to survive this and the executives will continue to live a life far removed from the people in the Gulf. We will continue to use oil at the current pace which will see no net reduction in CO2. Basically, we’re sacrificing those workers.

537 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:24:42pm

re: #529 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

You can do this right now, and it is not expensive.

Yes it’s my site. I don’t usually post it.

538 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:25:07pm

re: #534 Spare O’Lake

It’s a personal choice whether to compromise in order to eat…and I acknowledge that it takes a strong person to go hungry rather than to work at an activity which the person does not believe is moral.
However, I will not condemn anyone who does an honest day’s work for an honest day’s pay, so long as the activity is legal according to the laws of the place where the work is done.

It’s funny how compassion for blue-collar, hard-working Americans goes out the door when it’s an “evil” company they work for.

539 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:25:50pm

re: #515 Gus 802

Good point. I didn’t take that into consideration.

Gus, it costs about $500,000 per day just for a rig to sit idle. They can’t, those rigs will float away to places like Brazil who was planning on building about 20 new rigs. They will save billions by using the ones made redundant by the moratorium. Once in Brazil, (or elsewhere) they will be tied up drilling for years and never come back.

Building a new rig takes a minimum of 2 years and there is a worldwide shortage. With planning and infrastructure, a best case scenario is a small return about 3-4 years after the moratorium and at least a decade to get back to the same capacity. It won’t happen.

Who will want to drill in the US after what is happening to BP? The whole point to the $75 million statutory liability limit was to encourage drilling.

540 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:26:10pm

Funny how some jobs are now suddenly sacred, but when millions of people were thrown out of work in this country for the greater profit of the outsourcing shits in the corner offices, the people now whinging about the planet-fuckers losing their paychecks never said “peep” about it…

541 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:26:30pm

re: #537 Ojoe

You can do this right now, and it is not expensive.

Yes it’s my site. I don’t usually post it.

And I posted the other day that I think it’s a great idea to make individual houses self-sufficient or at least less dependent through the use of solar and wind power. But on the whole, it ain’t gonna work as a means of getting us off fossil fuels. Not without a shit-load of government spending.

542 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:26:37pm

re: #532 reine.de.tout

(sorry, multitasking so a bit slow to respond some)

Interesting read, altho I admit I agree more with Salazar. A ‘texas oil consultant’ doesn’t exactly hit my trustworthy buttons.

543 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:26:39pm

re: #520 reine.de.tout
I agree with you. And I’ll up the ante.

Disasters call for the correction of what went wrong. Not what goes right. The technology with the BOP is basically sound when properly run. The cause was bad decisions not the oil, not the design, not the depth. 3 Mile Island stopped new nuclear power stations cold. I can only ponder how many oil rigs a nuclear plant displaces.

Energy is a national security issue. It is a key economic issue. Cost spikes cost real lives in northern states, as the elderly freeze to death from harsh circumstances like not enough money for food, and roof, and heating oil.

Given the facts you posted-The moratorium may well be more about political clout than reality otherwise. The very thing we well despise in our leadership. Politics first, pragmatics second.

544 Macha  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:27:14pm

re: #481 reine.de.tout

Well.
I happen to know it, because I’ve been married for 20 years to a mud engineer, and he has no reason to lie to me. I’ve had phone conversations with him during a job, where he’s told me “We got a kick today had to shut everything down”. Or, problem with the formation, we’re not gonna make a well. Or whatever.

Then there’s been his “take” on this thing. He knew within a week what had happened, and why. So did all the rigs out there. First thing they did was start reviewing their policies and operations, to make sure such an incident could not occur on their rigs. But of course, no one has reported that. Not a bit “sexy”, is it, to report that sort of thing.

I’m sure they did just that, and it should have been made known. It is my understanding that the moratorium is only on new drilling and won’t affect rigs actually working now. Is that true? Or am I misunderstanding? BTW, I’m not anti-oil industry, but feel this is a wake up call to take a much closer look at how business is being done in the industry. 99% of the companies may be straight shooters, but as we are seeing, it is that 1% that can do irreparable damage. Once done, it can’t be undone.

545 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:27:22pm

re: #526 Cato the Elder

Your man-boobs.

Upding for uniquely revolting.

546 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:28:33pm

re: #540 Cato the Elder

Funny how some jobs are now suddenly sacred, but when millions of people were thrown out of work in this country for the greater profit of the outsourcing shits in the corner offices, the people now whinging about the planet-fuckers losing their paychecks never said “peep” about it…

What’s funny is you’re drawing a moral line between the factory worker and the rig worker, saying the former losing his job is a tragedy but the latter losing his job is just deserts.

547 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:29:31pm

re: #541 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

It is a very long term effort.
(to switch over the design of the housing stock).
But California has some new rules coming in a few years to start that process. If Jerry Brown is elected governor, that will help, he started a lot of solar stuff some decades ago. We’ve been sitting on our ass, as a country, for a long time.

548 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:29:49pm

re: #537 Ojoe

Cool—I’ve done reflective shingles and heavy insulation this year. The house has only one potential roof plane large enough for solar H/W. All our water in Israel was solar, (same latitude) and we had to cut it to get the temps low enough.

549 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:30:47pm

re: #537 Ojoe

You can do this right now, and it is not expensive.

Yes it’s my site. I don’t usually post it.

I didn’t know you were so groovy!

550 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:30:49pm

re: #541 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

One obstacle I have complained about here is CC&R’s, and regulators from county or city on up to state level. The permit process for home wind turbines, gray water use, cisterns, water wells, solar panles is huge. These authorities have little to no idea what is safe, and what to inspect, let alone permit.

Get the government out of the way of our individual efforts. Bottom up before top down. How much oil can we offset by ourselves given room to try?

551 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:31:33pm

re: #547 Ojoe

It is a very long term effort.
(to switch over the design of the housing stock).
But California has some new rules coming in a few years to start that process. If Jerry Brown is elected governor, that will help, he started a lot of solar stuff some decades ago. We’ve been sitting on our ass, as a country, for a long time.

But you’d agree with me that what’s fueling a lot of this is tax breaks, subsidies, and other ways where the government is either reducing or erasing the high cost of doing such work, right?

552 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:31:45pm

re: #548 Decatur Deb

The Sun out-powers everything. It pours gigawatts on us all the time.

BBL

553 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:31:45pm

re: #536 Gus 802

The working man is always the one that suffers. My prediction? BP is going to survive this and the executives will continue to live a life far removed from the people in the Gulf. We will continue to use oil at the current pace which will see no net reduction in CO2. Basically, we’re sacrificing those workers.

Exactly.

This is for Louisiana, I can’t find anything on other states:

How many jobs does the oil and gas industry provide in Louisiana now?
The Louisiana Department of Economic Development estimates that the active drilling suspension alone will result in a loss of 3,000 to 6,000 Louisiana jobs in the first two to three weeks;
The ban could cost Louisianans more than 10,000 jobs within a few months;
The state risks losing more than 20,000 existing and potential new jobs during a 12 to 18 month period, if the federal panel takes longer than six months to do their reviews and write their reports;
Coastal Louisiana, where one in three jobs is related to the oil and gas industry, services around 90 percent of deepwater operations in the Gulf of Mexico;
The Louisiana Department of Natural Resources estimates that an average of two supply boats per rig work every day with rates of $15,000 to $30,000 a boat, which means that suspension of drilling activity will result in a nearly $1 million loss per day in supply boat rental income. Each drilling rig job supports four other jobs in local communities.

What is the overall impact of the Oil and Gas Industry in Louisiana?
Oil and gas production directly and indirectly supported $12.7 billion in household earnings in the state, representing 15.4 percent of total Louisiana household earnings in 2005;
The industry supported, directly and indirectly, more than 320,000 jobs and $70.2 billion in business sale in Louisiana in 2005;
In 2006, more than 58,000 Louisianans worked in extraction, pipeline and refining jobs.

554 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:32:09pm

re: #549 marjoriemoon

Sort of.

BBL

555 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:32:38pm

re: #546 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

What’s funny is you’re drawing a moral line between the factory worker and the rig worker, saying the former losing his job is a tragedy but the latter losing his job is just deserts.

Yes, I find that odd, as well.

556 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:32:50pm

re: #531 Decatur Deb

Ouch—the refining side seems to have fairly decent standards (despite spectacular light-ups).

Refining is easy by comparison. Everything is known. Drilling involves the unknown. You drill miles through variable rock and can only guess at the pressure waiting below. The critical pieces are thousands of feet in the ground. The most dangerous part, the gas, migrates, pools seeps and expands.

557 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:33:41pm

re: #550 Rightwingconspirator

One obstacle I have complained about here is CC&R’s, and regulators from county or city on up to state level. The permit process for home wind turbines, gray water use, cisterns, water wells, solar panles is huge. These authorities have little to no idea what is safe, and what to inspect, let alone permit.

Get the government out of the way of our individual efforts. Bottom up before top down. How much oil can we offset by ourselves given room to try?

Damn straight. By the time you’ve jumped through all the hoops, paid all the costs, and dotted every i, before you’ve even started work, you’re in the hole money that you’re going to spend years recouping. And that assumes that you can do the work without the government halting you or your neighbor lodging a protest.

558 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:33:49pm

re: #544 Macha

I’m sure they did just that, and it should have been made known. It is my understanding that the moratorium is only on new drilling and won’t affect rigs actually working now. Is that true? Or am I misunderstanding? BTW, I’m not anti-oil industry, but feel this is a wake up call to take a much closer look at how business is being done in the industry. 99% of the companies may be straight shooters, but as we are seeing, it is that 1% that can do irreparable damage. Once done, it can’t be undone.

The moratorium is on drilling.

There is no moratorium on current production operations.

these are two separate things.

559 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:34:18pm

Supper bell is ringing.

560 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:34:29pm

re: #551 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yes the subsidies are not good in the long run.

But a passive solar house doesn’t really cost more, it just has to have good sun access & then you arrange the parts correctly & you get a lot of free heat every winter.

I gotta go make dinner!

Back later.

561 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:34:47pm

re: #554 Ojoe

Sort of.

BBL

Totally! You have beautiful designs. And I really like the solar idea. Hidden panels? Having them on top of the house isn’t practical for hurricane weather.

562 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:35:11pm

re: #540 Cato the Elder

I recall quite a bit of attention to that. “Giant sucking sound” ring a bell? NAFTA? Steel industry angst?

563 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:36:07pm

re: #558 reine.de.tout

The moratorium is on drilling.

There is no moratorium on current production operations.

these are two separate things.

New well = New jobs

564 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:36:28pm

re: #552 Ojoe

The Sun out-powers everything. It pours gigawatts on us all the time.

BBL

What happens when there’s a solid layer of ice and snow on the roof for several months of the year?

565 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:36:29pm

re: #553 reine.de.tout

I’ve been thinking, though, and I don’t believe Obama had a choice but to impose a moratorium. If he did not, and there was another accident (even a small one), the political fallout would be apocalyptic. It’s not about the jobs, its about the politics.

566 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:36:53pm

re: #543 Rightwingconspirator

I agree with you. And I’ll up the ante.

Disasters call for the correction of what went wrong. Not what goes right. The technology with the BOP is basically sound when properly run. The cause was bad decisions not the oil, not the design, not the depth. 3 Mile Island stopped new nuclear power stations cold. I can only ponder how many oil rigs a nuclear plant displaces.

Energy is a national security issue. It is a key economic issue. Cost spikes cost real lives in northern states, as the elderly freeze to death from harsh circumstances like not enough money for food, and roof, and heating oil.

Given the facts you posted-The moratorium may well be more about political clout than reality otherwise. The very thing we well despise in our leadership. Politics first, pragmatics second.

Yes, 3-mile island stopped nuclear power stations. Looking back - should it have? We would have been in a much better place, now, if it had not. Perhaps in a place where the deepwater drilling would not have been needed, and drilling would have started begin phased out, and people retrained and re-employed in nuclear plants.

567 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:37:17pm

re: #542 windsagio

(sorry, multitasking so a bit slow to respond some)

Interesting read, altho I admit I agree more with Salazar. A ‘texas oil consultant’ doesn’t exactly hit my trustworthy buttons.

Salazar is a lawyer and former Senator of Colorado:

In 2005, Salazar voted against increasing fuel-efficiency standards (CAFE) for cars and trucks, a vote that the League of Conservation Voters notes is anti-environment.

In the same year, Salazar voted against an amendment to repeal tax breaks for ExxonMobil and other major petroleum companies.

Frankly, I was glad to see him leave the Senate representing my state.

568 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:37:28pm

re: #565 Dark_Falcon

I’ve been thinking, though, and I don’t believe Obama had a choice but to impose a moratorium. If he did not, and there was another accident (even a small one), the political fallout would be apocalyptic. It’s not about the jobs, its about the politics.

Hate that. What kind of change is that?!?

569 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:37:40pm

Every Job Is Sacred!

570 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:38:14pm

re: #569 Cato the Elder

Every Job Is Sacred!

But Some Are More Sacred Than Others!

571 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:38:36pm

re: #547 Ojoe

It is a very long term effort.
(to switch over the design of the housing stock).
But California has some new rules coming in a few years to start that process. If Jerry Brown is elected governor, that will help, he started a lot of solar stuff some decades ago. We’ve been sitting on our ass, as a country, for a long time.

You don’t know squat about the actual practical aspects of using solar… like I said above, I was in the research side of the industry for 13 years… you can have solar if you want… right now… all you want… but someone is going to have to subsidize it almost totally… because it is a lost leader financially.

If the state of California has the money to start paying for it, lock, stock and solar panel, then they better get to it. If they don’t, then maybe the federal government will pay for you scheme.

Where do you think the money is going to come from to afford a energy source such as solar which is no where near even a break even proposition.

It may be in the future… but it’s a long way off. I want to see it happen too, but there is a big difference between the ideals and the realities.

And that’s the problem… if everyone would stop being so reactionary and approach this without all the agendas, maybe, and only maybe, we could get something accomplished.

Going to the moon was not a partisan venture. Right now, renewables and green technologies has party politics written all over it.

Won’t work that way.

572 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:38:41pm

re: #564 Spare O’Lake

What happens when there’s a solid layer of ice and snow on the roof for several months of the year?

Funny, I was thinking of hurricane proof. I would love to go to solar power if it can be secured to the house against a 200 mph wind.

573 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:39:16pm

re: #567 Gus 802

Being wrong before doesn’t stop him from being right now :p

574 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:39:19pm

re: #560 Ojoe

Yes the subsidies are not good in the long run.

But a passive solar house doesn’t really cost more, it just has to have good sun access & then you arrange the parts correctly & you get a lot of free heat every winter.

I gotta go make dinner!

Back later.

You must be smoking a lot of FREE weed.

575 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:39:19pm

re: #565 Dark_Falcon

I’ve been thinking, though, and I don’t believe Obama had a choice but to impose a moratorium. If he did not, and there was another accident (even a small one), the political fallout would be apocalyptic. It’s not about the jobs, its about the politics.

DF, you’re correct, he’s in a place where virtually any decision he made had the potential to be awful.

I would think, though, that he would have actually paid attention to his panel of experts, and also, to historical data. Deep-water drilling has been going on since the mid-80’s, at least that’s when my husband started doing it. Not. One. Incident.
Companies know full well the harshness of the backlash if they killed people, or what seems worse to folks here, spilled oil. So they took every precaution against it. BP’s problem is that they did NOT.

576 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:39:43pm

re: #561 marjoriemoon

There are adhesive solar panels, thin & flexible, that you can just “scootch” onto a metal pan roof.

Here is a website for them:

Uni-solar

Back later …

577 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:40:36pm

re: #542 windsagio

(sorry, multitasking so a bit slow to respond some)

Interesting read, altho I admit I agree more with Salazar. A ‘texas oil consultant’ doesn’t exactly hit my trustworthy buttons.

Well, there ya go. Back to my original question.
What’s the point of having panels of experts if we’re not going to believe their recommendations?

578 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:41:07pm

re: #565 Dark_Falcon

I’ve been thinking, though, and I don’t believe Obama had a choice but to impose a moratorium. If he did not, and there was another accident (even a small one), the political fallout would be apocalyptic. It’s not about the jobs, its about the politics.

That really doesn’t bother me much, we knew these people were politicians when we voted for them. I don’t hate my butcher for cutting meat. (It would be nice if the pols gave us a nice cut every now and then.)

579 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:41:38pm

re: #574 Walter L. Newton

Home solar is one of those things we should really be investing a lot more into. There are plenty of programs (altho admittedly in Europe) where people with good setups are actually selling 100% renewable energy back into the grid, and being paid for it.

Startup costs are a bitch tho’.

580 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:42:28pm

re: #571 Walter L. Newton

Solar roof tiles looked good to me. Available now. I did not look at the cost, I can only presume wide adoption helps a great deal as with most things.

581 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:43:17pm

re: #565 Dark_Falcon

I’ve been thinking, though, and I don’t believe Obama had a choice but to impose a moratorium. If he did not, and there was another accident (even a small one), the political fallout would be apocalyptic. It’s not about the jobs, its about the politics.

I agree with the way you framed the issue but couldn’t disagree more with the conclusion. He had a choice, and he should not have decided on political grounds. Rather, he should have weighed the safety risks and costs against the benefits.

582 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:43:55pm

re: #577 reine.de.tout

Gotta pick good experts :p


More to the point, its just something that had to be done, unfortunately.

My current impression is that there’s very little that can be done here, especially beyond the current ongoing efforts.

Unfortunately, the administration is under a freaking ton of pressure to “Do something”… and has an unusually rabid opposition just waiting to jump on him, to boot.

Being President really really sucks >>

583 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:44:45pm

re: #576 Ojoe

There are adhesive solar panels, thin & flexible, that you can just “scootch” onto a metal pan roof.

Here is a website for them:

Uni-solar

Back later …

Thanks. Bookmarked. When you come back, how much does that kind of thing run on, say, a 1600 sq ft home?

584 CapeCoddah  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:45:07pm

Good evening folks, how is everyone tonight?

585 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:45:13pm

re: #572 marjoriemoon

Funny, I was thinking of hurricane proof. I would love to go to solar power if it can be secured to the house against a 200 mph wind.

My shingles are only guaranteed to 150, with 4 nails to the 3-tab. We are 80 mi from the Gulf. Insurance is for the really bad ones.

586 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:45:23pm

re: #582 windsagio

Gotta pick good experts :p

More to the point, its just something that had to be done, unfortunately.

My current impression is that there’s very little that can be done here, especially beyond the current ongoing efforts.

Unfortunately, the administration is under a freaking ton of pressure to “Do something”… and has an unusually rabid opposition just waiting to jump on him, to boot.

Being President really really sucks >>

I would have thought the President would have picked the very best experts. Are you saying he didn’t?

Agree about the pressure …

587 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:46:16pm

re: #584 CapeCoddah

Good evening folks, how is everyone tonight?

Most seem to be very happy with the President’s “let’s get rid of Louisiana” speech tonight.

588 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:46:21pm

re: #573 windsagio

Being wrong before doesn’t stop him from being right now :p

Yeah. I don’t like him though. Something about him turns me off.

He was a rancher like a former architect I used to work for was a rancher. You make a lot of money in another business, amass millions, buy a ranch and put on a cowboy hat and then call yourself a rancher.

589 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:48:11pm

re: #583 marjoriemoon

Best link I could find.

Panels are down to ~800 dollars per (dunno how many you’d really want total), laminate they don’t price out well.

Prices are waaay down from a few years ago, but still a ways to go too.

590 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:48:47pm

re: #585 Decatur Deb

My shingles are only guaranteed to 150, with 4 nails to the 3-tab. We are 80 mi from the Gulf. Insurance is for the really bad ones.

My roof is relatively new (10 years) and to be honest, I don’t know how much wind it can take. It’s S tile. It’s withstood a Cat 3. That’s up to 130, I think. The windows are supposed to withstand 200 but I’m hoping that will never be tested.

You don’t have insurance?

591 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:49:03pm

re: #586 reine.de.tout

I’m more saying we’re hearing a bunch of statements by one guy on the panel (in that link).

I’m certain the panel was picked to cover all the potential POV’s, thats how they do it in my field.

592 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:49:06pm

re: #576 Ojoe

Thanks—bookmarked.

593 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:49:20pm

re: #584 CapeCoddah

Hi Cape.

594 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:49:27pm

re: #579 windsagio

Home solar is one of those things we should really be investing a lot more into. There are plenty of programs (altho admittedly in Europe) where people with good setups are actually selling 100% renewable energy back into the grid, and being paid for it.

Startup costs are a bitch tho’.

PROGRAMS… important word… like I said… this is accessible right now, tomorrow, if it is heavily subsidized. What’s more important is the technology continues… that’s where the subsidies should go to… so it can be made into near zero cost product at some time.

595 Gus  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:49:39pm

Hasta later.

596 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:49:53pm

re: #587 reine.de.tout

Oh no we can not have that. Not At All.

597 CapeCoddah  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:50:08pm

re: #587 reine.de.tout

Most seem to be very happy with the President’s “let’s get rid of Louisiana” speech tonight.

Well, I just got done watching it. I was in Boston most of the day.
My take on the speech.. we are screwed.
I am so sorry for you all in the Gulf, Reine, the region has been thrown to the dogs. The massive leadership failure is unimaginable coming from the USA. Makes Carter look like George Washington.

598 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:50:25pm

re: #589 windsagio

Best link I could find.

Panels are down to ~800 dollars per (dunno how many you’d really want total), laminate they don’t price out well.

Prices are waaay down from a few years ago, but still a ways to go too.

Last year, they were talking $25-$30K for panels here and you’d make your money back in X amount of years through the savings… I don’t recall, but I would never put panels on the roof and take the risk of loosing them for that $.

599 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:50:32pm

re: #594 Walter L. Newton

Yes, absolutely.

I’m a big fan of really big tax breaks or gov’t subsidized loans to get more of these systems installed…

Altho’ we might need to upgrade our grid first if we’re going to get into things like selling power back.

600 CapeCoddah  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:50:38pm

re: #593 Spare O’Lake

Hey Spare!

601 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:51:18pm

re: #590 marjoriemoon

My roof is relatively new (10 years) and to be honest, I don’t know how much wind it can take. It’s S tile. It’s withstood a Cat 3. That’s up to 130, I think. The windows are supposed to withstand 200 but I’m hoping that will never be tested.

You don’t have insurance?

Oh, yes—Opal bought my roof-before-this. We build our new Habitat houses to a 150 mph code. A bit further south, we would have to go for 200 mph.

602 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:51:56pm

re: #598 marjoriemoon

They’re alot tougher too, compared to the old ones.

Its amazing how fast the tech is improving… the real question we still have is whether we’re quite to the point where we can apply it across the board.

603 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:52:27pm

re: #580 Rightwingconspirator

Solar roof tiles looked good to me. Available now. I did not look at the cost, I can only presume wide adoption helps a great deal as with most things.

I’ve never said there is no sort of solar technology available… I am talking about the cost… there is a program in Colorado where they will give you an interest free loan to finance a complete solar panel set up on your home… and you have 20 years of payments… like I say, it’s available, no where near ready to pay for itself, or come close to being affordable.. yet.

You want it to be… subsidize the continuing research.

604 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:53:21pm

re: #601 Decatur Deb

Oh, yes—Opal bought my roof-before-this. We build our new Habitat houses to a 150 mph code. A bit further south, we would have to go for 200 mph.

Opal!! When was that? Here, now, if you buy a house with a tile roof and have to replace it, you have to put up another tile roof. You can’t downgrade to a shingle. You can replace a shingle with a shingle tho.

605 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:54:44pm

re: #600 CapeCoddah

Hey Spare!

Any news on the windmills in the water?

606 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:55:09pm

re: #584 CapeCoddah

Good evening folks, how is everyone tonight?

I’m decent. I was out most of the day, downtown at an interview that I only scheduled late yesterday afternoon. Very good job, one I’ve wanted for years, and I may finally get it.

607 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:55:12pm

re: #602 windsagio

They’re alot tougher too, compared to the old ones.

Its amazing how fast the tech is improving… the real question we still have is whether we’re quite to the point where we can apply it across the board.

All the big energy companies are investing in wind and solar now. It’s a good thing.

608 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:57:32pm

re: #603 Walter L. Newton

What kind of costs do you see? Lets say just to take a chunk from the usage, not necessarily to sell back onto the grid. Just to keep it simple.

609 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:58:45pm

re: #604 marjoriemoon

Opal!! When was that? Here, now, if you buy a house with a tile roof and have to replace it, you have to put up another tile roof. You can’t downgrade to a shingle. You can replace a shingle with a shingle tho.

Opal was ‘95—went directly through here at 110 mph, but trees did a lot of damage. Is the tile a covenant issue? Some hurricane zones don’t like tile b/c of debris threats. (I’ve seen solar PV shingles that sort of “pass” for conventional. Installing requires roofing and electrician skills.)

610 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 7:59:17pm

re: #607 marjoriemoon

It really is!

Easy to get all gloom-and-doom about these things, but at the same time we need to remember that a large number of steps are being taken in the right direction.

611 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:01:29pm

re: #607 marjoriemoon

All the big energy companies are investing in wind and solar now. It’s a good thing.

Up here in Ontario, Canada our government just hired Samsung (South Korea) to finance, build and instal a shitload of windmills.

612 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:03:01pm

re: #608 Rightwingconspirator

What kind of costs do you see? Lets say just to take a chunk from the usage, not necessarily to sell back onto the grid. Just to keep it simple.

It appears that the total cost of the installation I was talking about, the one that is being “backed” by the state of Colorado (or sponsored, I can’t quite figure out the connection, but no matter), it appears the cost is around 24,000 dollars, payable monthly for 20 years… on TOP of what ever the difference in your energy cost will be… this doesn’t supply you with unlimited free electricity, you still have to get something from the grid during peak usage and bad weather.

613 CapeCoddah  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:04:16pm

re: #605 Spare O’Lake

Any news on the windmills in the water?

Hey,, they got approved at the fed. level, but you know that it would that. Still a long legal battle to fight.
After they were approved by the govt. the REAL cost came out.
We were told here on the Cape told that it would lower our cost.
The real numbers turn out to be..off the top of my head as follows:
We now pay around .05 cents per kw. Our rate will go up to .22 cents per kw.
Added to that, the cost has at least doubled to $1 bil, with some estimates up to $2 bil, in taxpayer money to build it, in a completely inappropriate place.
Next, the state had quietly passed a bill mandating National Grid to purchase a certain percentage of it’s power from “Green” sources. Thereby making forcing National Grid to buy the power.
Kicker is, National Grid does not supply electricity to Cape Cod, so we get none of the power, we just have to pay for it.
And, the .22 cent per kw hour is just for the first year. The price will rise by 3% annually for the duration of the contract with National Grid…15 years.
It’s a steal for us/

614 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:06:25pm

re: #609 Decatur Deb

Opal was ‘95—went directly through here at 110 mph, but trees did a lot of damage. Is the tile a covenant issue? Some hurricane zones don’t like tile b/c of debris threats. (I’ve seen solar PV shingles that sort of “pass” for conventional. Installing requires roofing and electrician skills.)

Oh no, tile is good. Keeps trees/debris from smashing through it. It’s a tar paper roof with the tile on top… or did you know that hehe. Also keeps the house cooler as the tiles absorb some heat.

615 CapeCoddah  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:06:46pm

re: #606 Dark_Falcon

Hey DF! Great news, really happy for you! I will be pulling for you!

616 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:08:13pm

re: #612 Walter L. Newton

Is there a payback guesstimate? Does it make $24,000 in electricity in 20 years. Or? Not to bug ya, I am very curious. Specifics are not easy to get.

617 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:08:24pm

re: #615 CapeCoddah

Hey DF! Great news, really happy for you! I will be pulling for you!

Thanks, I’ll know tomorrow afternoon if it’s going to lead to an interview.

618 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:08:51pm

re: #613 CapeCoddah

Ouch! Talk about a screw-job for you local folks…and I bet the gubmint will tout this as the greatest thing since apple pie.

619 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:09:18pm

re: #616 Rightwingconspirator

Wait sorry, $24 grand plus electric bills? Ouch.

620 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:09:36pm

re: #610 windsagio

It really is!

Easy to get all gloom-and-doom about these things, but at the same time we need to remember that a large number of steps are being taken in the right direction.

And there has been a large number of steps taken for the last 30 and more years. The laboratory I speak about, the National Renewable Energy Lab (formally Solar Energy Research Institute, set up by one of your favorite presidents, Jimmy Carter) is a DOE research facility and they have been doing renewable research in Golden Colorado for over 30 years.

But even in all that time, even with the numerous transferable technologies they have given to private industries, slews of original patents, breakthroughs in renewable source never even thought of 30 years ago, in all those wonderful achievements, talk to anyone at the lab, and they will tell you, we are still a long way away from the cost coming close to our current energy costs.

But do you know something… almost every administration since Jimmy Cater has reduced funding to the lab, up and down, playing politics with the lab, when it helps elections they send money, when it help elections, they cut funding.

That’s how I left… funding cuts.

621 CapeCoddah  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:09:48pm

re: #618 Spare O’Lake

Ouch! Talk about a screw-job for you local folks…and I bet the gubmint will tout this as the greatest thing since apple pie.

It is a screw job for you too, my friend, a nasty screw for every US taxpayer. Big Dig II.

622 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:11:25pm

re: #609 Decatur Deb

Opal was ‘95—went directly through here at 110 mph, but trees did a lot of damage. Is the tile a covenant issue? Some hurricane zones don’t like tile b/c of debris threats. (I’ve seen solar PV shingles that sort of “pass” for conventional. Installing requires roofing and electrician skills.)

We have S tile which is pretty common. Similar to barrel tile, but less expensive. I think the barrel tile is made by hand and the tiles are larger and sturdier.

623 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:11:41pm

re: #616 Rightwingconspirator

Is there a payback guesstimate? Does it make $24,000 in electricity in 20 years. Or? Not to bug ya, I am very curious. Specifics are not easy to get.

From what I can gather, there is no payback, currently it will operate at a loss every month, it in itself is your own personal subsidy to the energy usage of the country… does that make sense?

624 Bear  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:13:02pm

With solar do you not have to have a battery pack that is charged by the panels and then some sort of converter to go from the DC to AC?

625 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:13:10pm

re: #619 Rightwingconspirator

Wait sorry, $24 grand plus electric bills? Ouch.

Correct… it will not simply replace all of your usage, just subsidize some of it… you are subsidizing the energy usage… helping to green the country.

626 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:14:28pm

re: #611 Spare O’Lake

Up here in Ontario, Canada our government just hired Samsung (South Korea) to finance, build and instal a shitload of windmills.

Ooo remote control with little TVs in em?

627 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:15:16pm

re: #616 Rightwingconspirator

Depends on your situation, in the german tests (which included selling back to the grid) they paid back in 10-15 years ,if I remember right.

How much power do you use and how much sun do you get?

628 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:15:31pm

re: #623 Walter L. Newton

Make sense? Yes and no. Your writing is perfectly clear.
The issue, however gets muddy as I read on.

629 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:15:31pm

re: #614 marjoriemoon

One kind of solar “shingle”, with aesthetic penalty. Others are less obvious:

[Link: www.dowsolar.com…]

630 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:15:39pm

re: #621 CapeCoddah

It is a screw job for you too, my friend, a nasty screw for every US taxpayer. Big Dig II.

Not me, I get my forced sex courtesy of the Canajun government…I’m not Amurkin!

631 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:16:20pm

re: #625 Walter L. Newton

Dude, that’s not quite right.

There aren’t really running costs of the things (barring repair) once they’re installed. You definintely save money over time, don’t know how long it takes to save $24k tho’… Altho’ again, it depends.

632 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:16:40pm

re: #629 Decatur Deb

One kind of solar “shingle”, with aesthetic penalty. Others are less obvious:

[Link: www.dowsolar.com…]

Seems like you’d do the whole roof in a black shingle then no?

633 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:18:23pm

re: #631 windsagio

Dude, that’s not quite right.

There aren’t really running costs of the things (barring repair) once they’re installed. You definintely save money over time, don’t know how long it takes to save $24k tho’… Altho’ again, it depends.

Currently you are never totally off the grid… not yet. As long as you still have to pay for SOME electricity, it’s is not a totally self-supporting renewable…

634 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:19:17pm

re: #633 Walter L. Newton

No, but you are saving money on your electricity bill.

The way its usually calculated, it ‘pays itself off’ in the amount of time it takes your utility savings to equal the cost of the unit/installation.

635 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:19:27pm

Well, it’s time for me to power down and hit the sack.
Nytol.

636 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:20:11pm

re: #622 marjoriemoon

We have S tile which is pretty common. Similar to barrel tile, but less expensive. I think the barrel tile is made by hand and the tiles are larger and sturdier.

That looks like it could be clay or a composite. (We had clay in Italy and Israel, but I didn’t have to mess with it.) Are they individual tiles held down by gravity, or nailed?

637 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:20:22pm

re: #627 windsagio

Okay, I live in the San Fernando Valley. About 34 degrees north. Lots of sun. we are fully CF lit, even my photography studio, apart from strobes. Gas stove, oven and hot water.

Solar runs 1500 watts per sq meter, at 25 % 325 watts per sq meter available if I recall correctly.

638 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:21:42pm

re: #632 marjoriemoon

Yeah, it would be less objectionable without the contrast.

639 Kewalo  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:22:31pm

r: #489 Ct th ldr

Tht’s why pt my gns nd knvs t th dspsl f nyn wh wnts t tk t cntrct n sm dd.

hv t t.

Ths pst f yrs mks m wsh wth my whl hrt tht hd th mny t s ths srvcs n vry BP xc tht trd t ct crnrs t sv fw dllrs.

nd snc cn’t d tht, wld lk t s vry sngl n f thm d s mch tm s smn thy bst fr pt. W r vry strng crtrs tht w lck p kds fr gttng hgh nd shw rspct fr mn tht hv csd sch hrrbl dsstr.

ws lcky ngh t spnd 10 wndrfl yrs t s nd hnstly, ths s kllng m.

640 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:22:50pm

Heading upstairs.

641 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:24:53pm

re: #636 Decatur Deb

That looks like it could be clay or a composite. (We had clay in Italy and Israel, but I didn’t have to mess with it.) Are they individual tiles held down by gravity, or nailed?

Usually cement. Well when we bought the house, it had cement tile. I think ours is clay though. I should know these things…They are nailed down though.

642 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:25:15pm

re: #637 Rightwingconspirator

I’m not that much of an expert, but if you had the interest-free loan available, sounds like it would be worth it for you guys.

Again, tho, I’m just an interested amateur so I can’t get very specific at all :(

643 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:26:43pm

re: #636 Decatur Deb

That looks like it could be clay or a composite. (We had clay in Italy and Israel, but I didn’t have to mess with it.) Are they individual tiles held down by gravity, or nailed?

Check this out:

[Link: www.caldwellroofing.com…]

Scroll down to Concrete/Clay tile.

644 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:28:03pm

re: #565 Dark_Falcon

I’ve been thinking, though, and I don’t believe Obama had a choice but to impose a moratorium. If he did not, and there was another accident (even a small one), the political fallout would be apocalyptic. It’s not about the jobs, its about the politics.

So political ass covering is more important than the economy and the lively-hoods of millions?

645 CapeCoddah  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:29:43pm

re: #644 Bagua

So political ass covering is more important than the economy and the lively-hoods of millions?

Certainly not, but, none of us are politicians. To a politician, that is all that matters.

646 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:30:06pm

re: #642 windsagio

Bottom line is sq meters of panel. I happen to be an apartment dweller. But south facing panel racks are very possible. At my latitude, you are limited to south facing surface area. The math is easy. Just plug in the installed cost per meter of tiles or panels or whatever works.

Hell, forget electricity, just heat your water with roof pipes. Hmm copper pipe per linear foot compared to gas for heater. Hmmm. More math.

647 Bear  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:30:13pm

re: #644 Bagua

I fear you are correct.

648 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:30:38pm

re: #571 Walter L. Newton

You don’t know squat about the actual practical aspects of using solar… like I said above, I was in the research side of the industry for 13 years… you can have solar if you want… right now… all you want… but someone is going to have to subsidize it almost totally… because it is a lost leader financially.

If the state of California has the money to start paying for it, lock, stock and solar panel, then they better get to it. If they don’t, then maybe the federal government will pay for you scheme.

Where do you think the money is going to come from to afford a energy source such as solar which is no where near even a break even proposition.

It may be in the future… but it’s a long way off. I want to see it happen too, but there is a big difference between the ideals and the realities.

And that’s the problem… if everyone would stop being so reactionary and approach this without all the agendas, maybe, and only maybe, we could get something accomplished.

Going to the moon was not a partisan venture. Right now, renewables and green technologies has party politics written all over it.

Won’t work that way.

Brilliant.

649 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:31:21pm

re: #643 marjoriemoon

Looks like it really fits the coastal style. The Italian construction allowed some air to channel excess heat away from under the tile.

650 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:34:00pm

Heading upstairs.re: #644 Bagua

So political ass covering is more important than the economy and the lively-hoods of millions?

He’s hoping he can do something for those people, but the politics of the situation posed a grave risk for him. I’m not defending him, just trying to analyze his situation. Obama has also seldom had to deal with this situation before. When he was working on Chicago’s south side as an organizer he couldn’t make things worse unless he made a stupid mistake (which he didn’t do). Now he’s in a situation where he can can make a smart choice and still have it go sideways on him. That is a hard burden to bear. He asked for that burden, but its full weight is just hitting him now.

651 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:34:16pm

re: #579 windsagio

Home solar is one of those things we should really be investing a lot more into. There are plenty of programs (altho admittedly in Europe) where people with good setups are actually selling 100% renewable energy back into the grid, and being paid for it.

Startup costs are a bitch tho’.

They are taking advantage of subsidies. They sell the power back at an inflated rate that gets spread evenly across the users. This means the people wealthy enough to purchase them have their little cash cow paid for by the poor people who can’t afford the subsidy panel. But they are forced to pay for them.

652 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:37:37pm

I just listened to the Olbermann/Matthews wrap up of President Obama’s speech… not good vibes at all… did LGF Steve write their dialog tonight?

653 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:39:17pm

re: #649 Decatur Deb

Looks like it really fits the coastal style. The Italian construction allowed some air to channel excess heat away from under the tile.

These are single tiles laid over one another. They have kind of lip on them, makes the “S”. I think that’s where they’re nailed, but they also use foam adhesive to keep them down. The problem, as you know, is the wind getting under them and lifting them so that helps.

Speaking of which, after they finished putting the tar paper on our roof, the company kinda disappeared. Months went by and they never came back. Six months later (with a certain amount of freaking from me) we had our tiles. Apparently, they came from Columbia and they had some big cocaine bust. They were checking all shipments of tiles in case they were hiding coke in them. Hence the delay. Luckily it was in February!

654 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:39:19pm

Stewart was rough on the Prez tonight (GWOT, not OIL). Guy can’t catch a break. ‘Nite, all.

655 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:42:02pm

re: #598 marjoriemoon

Last year, they were talking $25-$30K for panels here and you’d make your money back in X amount of years through the savings… I don’t recall, but I would never put panels on the roof and take the risk of loosing them for that $.

You could only make your money back during the lifetime of those panels if their cost is heavily subsidised. It is a tax rebate scam for all except very limited applications.

Solar hot water on the other-hand is good now in the right climate. Passive things such as insulation are a good deal now. Generating electricity economically is still in the research phase.

656 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:46:55pm

re: #646 Rightwingconspirator

Some of the people up near our Cabin in the San Juans have all their water solar-heated in the summer. Works surprisingly well, and thats damn far north to boot.

657 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:47:32pm

re: #618 Spare O’Lake

Ouch! Talk about a screw-job for you local folks…and I bet the gubmint will tout this as the greatest thing since apple pie.

They will report the percentage of power and the number of kilowatts as an accomplishment. The real cost will never be studied or reported. People who do will get ignored by the media and shunned.

658 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:49:27pm

re: #651 Bagua

I knew about the subsidies, actually. Your representation of the situation isn’t great tho’.

The cost of the subsidy on the sold back power simply isn’t meaningful to the cost of the average consumer… For a large number of reasons. Implying that its somehow being carried by the poor is just silly.

659 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:49:52pm

re: #656 windsagio

Some of the people up near our Cabin in the San Juans have all their water solar-heated in the summer. Works surprisingly well, and thats damn far north to boot.

Those are the only two applications which actually make sense at the present time. Solar water heating and remote, off grid where the alternative is a generator.

660 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:51:11pm

re: #658 windsagio

I knew about the subsidies, actually. Your representation of the situation isn’t great tho’.

The cost of the subsidy on the sold back power simply isn’t meaningful to the cost of the average consumer… For a large number of reasons. Implying that its somehow being carried by the poor is just silly.

Nope, its real and meaningful, you are simply uninformed, as usual.

661 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:51:26pm

it’s

662 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:54:55pm

The economical way to go with solar electric right now is with
Net Metering
which feeds the photovoltaic energy into the electric grid via an inverter and a cut off switch. The system runs your electric meter backwards when it can and it can make your electric bill zero. And, you do not have to buy batteries.

For those who complain about high solar costs, I shall point out the current cost of the oil spill, how many billions is that; and in addition, the military costs of oil; buying oil from the Saudis funds our enemies: indirectly, but in a real way, 9-11 and the subsequent war on terror is attributable to our oil addiction, these costs are never factored in but had the Wahabbis been poor caravaners over a sea of sand, they’d never have been able to fund OBL.

663 windsagio  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:56:38pm

re: #660 Bagua

you spend alot of time trying to carry yourself off on forceful language, don’tcha?

But anyways, I’m out. Gotta prep for work. You can totally have the last word :D

664 Stanley Sea  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:56:43pm

re: #662 Ojoe

The economical way to go with solar electric right now is with
Net Metering
which feeds the photovoltaic energy into the electric grid via an inverter and a cut off switch. The system runs your electric meter backwards when it can and it can make your electric bill zero. And, you do not have to buy batteries.

For those who complain about high solar costs, I shall point out the current cost of the oil spill, how many billions is that; and in addition, the military costs of oil; buying oil from the Saudis funds our enemies: indirectly, but in a real way, 9-11 and the subsequent war on terror is attributable to our oil addiction, these costs are never factored in but had the Wahabbis been poor caravaners over a sea of sand, they’d never have been able to fund OBL.

I have friends with this system. Meter runs backwards. No credit yet from SDGE but it’s coming in the future. Extremely worth the cost.

665 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:56:56pm

re: #662 Ojoe

Ojoe, you can’t build those solar panels without oil and in a best case scenario we are talking about a fraction of total electricity production.

666 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 8:59:27pm

re: #663 windsagio

you spend alot of time trying to carry yourself off on forceful language, don’tcha?

But anyways, I’m out. Gotta prep for work. You can totally have the last word :D

I spend a lot of time. Lol. No one posts more than you and you could carry yourself better if you knew more about the subject instead of just spouting stuff off the top of your head. ~~

667 swamprat  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 9:02:09pm

Obama does not have good rhetorical skills; he’s fine at that “reason” and “logic” stuff, but he is lacking in good old fashioned emo-button pushing.
He should study the rhetoric from other times and issues.

The “classics”, as it were.

As for how I, personally feel about off-shore drilling, all I can say is….

Off-shore drilling should be legal, safe and rare.

But please consider these also;

Off shore drilling rigs; would you want your sister to live next to one?
Oil consumption and America…Separate, but Equal!
Oil is not healthy for children and other living things.
Internal Combustion; Love it or leave it!
Black, (gooey, smelly, fish killing) Power!
song; “Where have all the Flowers Scampi gone?
You can have have my coal furnace when you rip it from my cold, unheated house!
Off the rigs!

668 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 9:07:29pm

re: #665 Bagua

Solar electricity is bigger than you think. Here is the direction it is going:
Solar Power Partners Company

669 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 9:10:52pm

re: #667 swamprat

Obama does not have good rhetorical skills; he’s fine at that “reason” and “logic” stuff, but he is lacking in good old fashioned emo-button pushing.
He should study the rhetoric from other times and issues.

The “classics”, as it were.

As for how I, personally feel about off-shore drilling, all I can say is…

Off-shore drilling should be legal, safe and rare.

But please consider these also;

Off shore drilling rigs; would you want your sister to live next to one?
Oil consumption and America…Separate, but Equal!
Oil is not healthy for children and other living things.
Internal Combustion; Love it or leave it!
Black, (gooey, smelly, fish killing) Power!
song; “Where have all the Flowers Scampi gone?
You can have have my coal furnace when you rip it from my cold, unheated house!
Off the rigs!

Obama made a conscious choice more than 20 years ago to eschew that sort of rhetoric. He decided that talking that way would get him pigeonholed as an “angry black man”. His calm “No Drama Obama” way of speaking was designed to be non-threatening but is therefore of necessity devoid of great passion.

670 Stanley Sea  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 9:13:31pm

re: #669 Dark_Falcon

Obama made a conscious choice more than 20 years ago to eschew that sort of rhetoric. He decided that talking that way would get him pigeonholed as an “angry black man”. His calm “No Drama Obama” way of speaking was designed to be non-threatening but is therefore of necessity devoid of great passion.

That’s probably the saddest truth.

671 Bagua  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 9:14:36pm

re: #668 Ojoe

Solar electricity is bigger than you think. Here is the direction it is going:
Solar Power Partners Company

It’s big because of the subsidies involved. Prove to me that it is economical and I will advocate ramping up deployment. Right now only research and special cases make sense.

Without battery back-up it also destabilises the grid beyond a fractional contribution. Those are Solar Subsidy Pannels.

672 swamprat  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 9:17:06pm

re: #669 Dark_Falcon

Obama made a conscious choice more than 20 years ago to eschew that sort of rhetoric. He decided that talking that way would get him pigeonholed as an “angry black man”. His calm “No Drama Obama” way of speaking was designed to be non-threatening but is therefore of necessity devoid of great passion.

Great. Of all the Chicago politicians, we elect friggin’ “Pat Paulson”.

/(Old “laugh-in” routine. Fiery campaign ads and then Pat would dead-pan…”vote for me…”)….. you had to be there…

673 swamprat  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 9:18:34pm

Sigh. At least we have Emanuel….

674 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 9:20:54pm

re: #670 Stanley Sea

That’s probably the saddest truth.

Yep. He talks about it in his autobiography. I’m not going to give any opinion on his decision, because I simply don’t and can’t understand the circumstances and realities that lead him to make his decision.

675 Stanley Sea  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 9:23:52pm

re: #674 Dark_Falcon

Yep. He talks about it in his autobiography. I’m not going to give any opinion on his decision, because I simply don’t and can’t understand the circumstances and realities that lead him to make his decision.

Being black. I think it’s really that simple.

676 Macha  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 10:03:03pm

re: #537 Ojoe

Excellent. This is the kind of new construction we need as opposed to the same old ‘bigger is better’ endless development that sells itself as green because they installed low flush toilets.
We also need a cost effective way to convert existing housing to at least partial solar.

677 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 10:08:28pm

re: #675 Stanley Sea

Being black. I think it’s really that simple.

I agree. Heading upstairs for real this time.

678 thecommodore  Tue, Jun 15, 2010 10:48:19pm

re: #28 albusteve

BO has been lying through his teeth

I know plenty of lizards have probably beaten me to this, but in case they haven’t, how?

This “Obama Liar” bit is really amusing because i’ve heard it on talk radio (callers mainly) without any clear examples.

679 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:18:15am

re: #676 Macha

If the existing house has enough sun exposure, what you do is make sure it is insulated adequately, does not leak too much air; then enlarge the south facing glass area and make sure the roof overhangs are in the right place to let in the sun in winter and keep it out in summer.

You might also put in some reflective patio paving on the south too.

Then you have done the best you can, and it will be significant, probably.

680 Slap  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:18:50am

re: #672 swamprat

I know, dead thread….

But Pat Paulsen was a Smothers Brothers Show player, fwiw. Laugh-In was far less subtle….


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