Video: Newt Gingrich’s Chairman Explains the Dominionist Agenda

Politics • Views: 4,617

One of the tenets of the very politically active far right Christian sect known as the “Dominionists” is the “Seven Mountains” analogy — a strategy for building political influence and gradually turning the United States into a theocracy. It may sound crazy, but the people who believe this are completely serious, highly motivated, persistent, and politically influential.

Here’s Jim Garlow, Senior Pastor of Skyline Wesleyan Church and Chairman of Newt Gingrich’s “Renewing American Leadership,” explaining the basic ideas of Seven Mountains Dominionism.

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973 comments
1 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:39:36pm

Cross pollination of Dominionists is just so wrong, at more than one level.

2 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:40:05pm

I've always wondered how promoting the concept of a religious war might fit into the plan, too.

3 albusteve  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:40:07pm

theocracy?..I'll renounce

4 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:42:00pm

Isn't there a Christian law or something against being manipulative, conniving, underhanded, power mongers?

5 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:42:24pm

Newt Gingrich seems to be going all the way religious right.

6 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:43:37pm

"And bring armies of people who are willing to fast, and pray and target these people..."

Fasting
Praying
Targeting...

Being targeted by an army of people......


(singing) One of these things is not like the other...

7 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:44:09pm

God gave us the cultural mountain of "media"?
Wow.
I really didn't want to listen to this, i knew it was going to be crazy, and it was.

8 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:44:22pm

Gingrich is a very canny politician. If he's decided to dive head-first into the fundamentalist pool, it's because he thinks this is the only future left for conservatism.

9 brookly red  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:44:41pm

On one hand I find this really creepy, but on the other hand it kinda is to be expected. Oh well.

10 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:45:00pm

re: #5 Charles

I think Newt goes where he thinks influence is.


/Or maybe they got to him during the Gopac/Wedge Document days?

11 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:45:10pm

This is some scary shit.

12 Mocking Jay  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:45:21pm

re: #8 Charles

Gingrich is a very canny politician. If he's decided to dive head-first into the fundamentalist pool, it's because he thinks this is the only future left for conservatism.

I actually kind of expected better of him. Oh well.

13 wrenchwench  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:45:32pm

Just like Alinsky!

?/?

14 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:45:54pm

re: #12 JasonA

He reallly lost his touch somewhere in the last 10 years.

15 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:46:17pm

re: #12 JasonA

I actually kind of expected better of him. Oh well.

I didn't.

16 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:46:40pm

He didn't sound like a Dominionist to me. Nothing he said implied subversion of the Constitution. That, of course, is based solely on that one clip.

17 albusteve  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:47:18pm

re: #4 b_sharp

Isn't there a Christian law or something against being manipulative, conniving, underhanded, power mongers?

that's an albusteve law

18 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:47:31pm

re: #15 Charles

I didn't.

Neither did I. He's a politician, he's looking for a way back into the game. Being on the sidelines isn't as fun as being the guy doing the moving and shaking.

19 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:47:47pm

re: #16 Dark_Falcon

He didn't sound like a Dominionist to me. Nothing he said implied subversion of the Constitution. That, of course, is based solely on that one clip.

"Seven Mountains" comes straight out of Dominionism.

20 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:49:18pm

Dudes.
Babes.

I'm back from business trip + vacation. Did you miss me, or did you miss me?

Oh, by the way. Dominionist Christians need to get hooked on phonics. Know how much time Christ spends talking about individual relationships, repentance, humility, love, prayer, forgiveness, love, relationships, sincerity, love, and so forth? Lots.

How much time did He spend talking about 'culture wars', Newt? Yeah. Nooot so much.

That...is why they fail...

21 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:49:33pm

(Link's in my post, click and start reading.)

22 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:50:13pm

re: #20 Aceofwhat?

Dudes.
Babes.

I'm back from business trip + vacation. Did you miss me, or did you miss me?

Oh, by the way. Dominionist Christians need to get hooked on phonics. Know how much time Christ spends talking about individual relationships, repentance, humility, love, prayer, forgiveness, love, relationships, sincerity, love, and so forth? Lots.

How much time did He spend talking about 'culture wars', Newt? Yeah. Nooot so much.

That...is why they fail...

...who are you again?

/

23 Mocking Jay  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:51:06pm

re: #20 Aceofwhat?

Dudes.
Babes.

I'm back from business trip + vacation. Did you miss me, or did you miss me?

Who are you again?

/

24 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:51:09pm

re: #18 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds


Its not fair to paint the rest of politics as slimy and manipulative as Newt is >>

25 Mocking Jay  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:51:23pm

re: #22 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

dammit!

26 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:51:40pm

re: #25 JasonA

dammit!

GMTA

27 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:52:04pm

perhaps the biggest reason that Jews rarely vote Republican is because they fear the mixture of religion and politics. there are plenty of other reasons that some Jews do vote "R," but if the right goes too far in mixing one single religion into the political agenda, they'll forfeit many future Jewish votes that they could really use.

28 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:52:18pm

re: #8 Charles

Gingrich is a very canny politician. If he's decided to dive head-first into the fundamentalist pool, it's because he thinks this is the only future left for conservatism.

Really?

I'd argue if he was a canny politician he wouldn't have decided that it was a good idea to visit his current wife in the hospital while she was recovering from cancer to talk with her about how he wanted a divorce.

A might tasteless that in my opinion....

29 albusteve  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:52:26pm

from the link

Since the condition of the earth reflects the condition of those who have dominion over it, in order for the earth to be blessed and reflect the glory of God, those who are blessed must have a greater influence over it than those who are cursed.

so who decides who's cursed?..I don't like this kind of talk

30 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:52:28pm

re: #20 Aceofwhat?

Well I missed you Ace :D

31 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:52:40pm

re: #11 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Without sensible conservatism, there can be no check and balance. Without the check and balance system we face far more foolish error and bad policies. While those on the left may now indulge in deep swims in schadenfreude, they should be very careful what they wish for.

This is just awful.

32 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:52:47pm

re: #19 Charles

"Seven Mountains" comes straight out of Dominionism.

Finally clicked the link. My #16 is withdrawn.

33 brookly red  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:52:49pm

re: #22 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

...who are you again?

/

I can't recognize the face... but my unicorn is wagging his tail so it must be cool.

34 The Curmudgeon  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:53:04pm

If that's going to be the major message of the GOP, then I'll be outta there. You noticed, I assume, that he makes no mention of the Constitution. Neither party seems to care very much about it these days.

35 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:53:15pm

re: #20 Aceofwhat?

Dudes.
Babes.

I'm back from business trip + vacation. Did you miss me, or did you miss me?

Oh, by the way. Dominionist Christians need to get hooked on phonics. Know how much time Christ spends talking about individual relationships, repentance, humility, love, prayer, forgiveness, love, relationships, sincerity, love, and so forth? Lots.

How much time did He spend talking about 'culture wars', Newt? Yeah. Nooot so much.

That...is why they fail...

And what did Jesus have to say, oh what did he say
About being gay?
Well.... nothing....

36 albusteve  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:53:41pm

re: #24 windsagio

Its not fair to paint the rest of politics as slimy and manipulative as Newt is >>

it most certainly is...slime and manipulation ARE politics

37 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:53:42pm

re: #29 albusteve

It's a creepy philosophy really, another common tenet is "If you are active in the church and give alot of money, God will reward you with wealth and personal success!"

38 PhillyPretzel  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:54:40pm

re: #27 _RememberTonyC
True.

39 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:54:44pm

re: #36 albusteve

Mr. G is on a level of his own tho', really.

40 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:55:14pm

re: #24 windsagio

Its not fair to paint the rest of politics as slimy and manipulative as Newt is >>

Newt's merely the end product. "Power corrupts" and all that jazz. I've yet to see a politician who, at the end of his first term, wasn't already sporting a thin layer of slime.

41 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:55:46pm

re: #16 Dark_Falcon

He didn't sound like a Dominionist to me. Nothing he said implied subversion of the Constitution. That, of course, is based solely on that one clip.

Charles is right - this 'seven mountains' nonsense is a wholly misguided shift from demonstrating Jesus' love by serving and loving individuals to an attempt to infuse the culture with Christianity.

Jesus didn't say anything about helping cultures. It was all about people. These saps are a paddle short of a useful canoe...

42 freetoken  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:55:55pm

I remember when Garlow took over Skyline from his predecessor, Pastor Maxwell. I knew some people in that church, and tried to date a woman who went there. It seems Garlow changed, over time, the nature of that congregation. They were always quite evangelical but I don't remember them being so Dominionist.

43 brookly red  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:56:19pm

re: #37 windsagio

It's a creepy philosophy really, another common tenet is "If you are active in the churchParty and give alot of money, God the Party will reward you with wealth and personal success!"

same shit different day.

44 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:56:43pm

re: #40 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I was starting to argue against that point to some, but I realized that its a dry socket.

Lets just agree that Gingrich is a true slimeball, and it doesn't matter whether he's a unique slimeball or not.

45 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:56:46pm

Okay, so the US is going full on theocracy.... does this mean we'll abandon the problem of illegal aliens, and start targeting illegal atheists?///

46 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:56:54pm

re: #25 JasonA

dammit!

hell no, it was funnier because there were multiple people with the same great sarcastic reaction...well done!

47 albusteve  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:56:56pm

re: #37 windsagio

It's a creepy philosophy really, another common tenet is "If you are active in the church and give alot of money, God will reward you with wealth and personal success!"

for one thing, I assume I'm cursed...then what?...do I have to extrapolate a hit squad of Jesus freaks to lay siege to the bunkhouse...I don't conform or submit to anybody...except my mom of course

48 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:57:24pm

re: #34 The Curmudgeon

If that's going to be the major message of the GOP, then I'll be outta there. You noticed, I assume, that he makes no mention of the Constitution. Neither party seems to care very much about it these days.

There's so many different variations of the Constitution, none of them bearing much resemblance to the actual document. Ask two people from different parties what the Second Amendment really says and you'll get two different answers, both of which are party talking points.

49 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:57:38pm

re: #43 brookly red

Well one example isn't corrupting my religion :p

50 Mocking Jay  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:57:45pm

re: #46 Aceofwhat?

hell no, it was funnier because there were multiple people with the same great sarcastic reaction...well done!


I can't think of anyone more deserving, Ace!

;)

51 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:58:37pm

re: #45 tradewind

Okay, so the US is going full on theocracy... does this mean we'll abandon the problem of illegal aliens, and start targeting illegal atheists?///

...

Wonder if there's some small, unclaimed island that we can all pitch in together and buy. Build our own lizard nation.

52 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:59:09pm

re: #47 albusteve

Na, you'll just be poor and sad.

Its funny actually, to my understanding part of the idea is that God actively rewards or punishes people under dominionist theory. It kinda raises the question of why they need these crazy activist groups >>

53 freetoken  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:59:19pm

Indeed, that is an important point to emphasize.

During the later part of the 20th century the often separationist/isolationist nature of American evangelicals and pentacostals started to get influenced by the Dominionist teachings of the far right (usually Presbyterian minor denominations) religious teachers.

54 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:59:19pm

re: #48 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

There's so many different variations of the Constitution, none of them bearing much resemblance to the actual document. Ask two people from different parties what the Second Amendment really says and you'll get two different answers, both of which are party talking points.

Hell ask two democrats and you can get three answers!

55 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:59:36pm

re: #44 windsagio

I was starting to argue against that point to some, but I realized that its a dry socket.

Lets just agree that Gingrich is a true slimeball, and it doesn't matter whether he's a unique slimeball or not.

Agreed.

56 Mocking Jay  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:59:46pm

re: #51 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

...

Wonder if there's some small, unclaimed island that we can all pitch in together and buy. Build our own lizard nation.

I give it a week before it turns into Lord of the Flies.

57 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 5:59:50pm

re: #45 tradewind

Muslims first, then Atheists.

Then Catholics.

58 webevintage  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:00:13pm

God needs to rapture these fuckers real soon so the rest of us can get on with enjoying life.

59 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:00:17pm

re: #56 JasonA

I give it a week before it turns into Lord of the Flies.

I was aiming more towards Gilligan's Island.

60 brookly red  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:00:29pm

re: #51 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

...

Wonder if there's some small, unclaimed island that we can all pitch in together and buy. Build our own lizard nation.

Komodo is lovely this time of year...

61 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:00:41pm

re: #57 windsagio

Muslims first, then Atheists.

Then Catholics.

That makes me think Life of Brian personally.

"We've got to remember who are real enemies are!"

"The Muslims?"

"No, those damn papists!"

62 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:01:05pm

re: #51 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Accessible only by Gilacopter.

63 Mocking Jay  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:01:26pm

re: #57 windsagio

Muslims first, then Atheists.

Then Catholics.

There was a poll done a couple of years ago. Most respondents would rather their child marry a Muslim than an atheist.

64 webevintage  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:01:55pm

BTW, the Rapture Index is 172.
I'm just saying...

65 freetoken  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:02:06pm

re: #8 Charles

Gingrich is a very canny politician. If he's decided to dive head-first into the fundamentalist pool, it's because he thinks this is the only future left for conservatism.

Yes, he is very canny and I agree - he has decided that the future of the "rightist" movement in this country will have more success pushing the religious line than the anti-religious beliefs of some of the original Libertarian Fundamentalists.

66 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:02:20pm

re: #61 jamesfirecat

In the more extreme elements of the Evangelical movement, Catholics are considered essentially no different than pagans, if not actively worse.

67 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:02:46pm

re: #63 JasonA

so not going there :D

68 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:03:03pm

re: #48 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

There's so many different variations of the Constitution, none of them bearing much resemblance to the actual document. Ask two people from different parties what the Second Amendment really says and you'll get two different answers, both of which are party talking points.

Which is why the people don't have any real influence over the way the constitution is interpreted. The Supreme Court is charged with interpreting the actual document.

69 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:03:04pm

re: #63 JasonA

There was a poll done a couple of years ago. Most respondents would rather their child marry a Muslim than an atheist.

I was just thinking that they'd probably go after the atheists first.

70 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:03:13pm

re: #63 JasonA
Who was the polling audience?
That'd be interesting.

71 albusteve  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:03:23pm

re: #66 windsagio

In the more extreme elements of the Evangelical movement, Catholics are considered essentially no different than pagans, if not actively worse.

well...that I can understand
jus kidding

72 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:03:24pm

re: #64 webevintage

BTW, the Rapture Index is 172.
I'm just saying...

How high can the stupid thing go by the way?

73 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:03:28pm

re: #41 Aceofwhat?

Charles is right - this 'seven mountains' nonsense is a wholly misguided shift from demonstrating Jesus' love by serving and loving individuals to an attempt to infuse the culture with Christianity.

Jesus didn't say anything about helping cultures. It was all about people. These saps are a paddle short of a useful canoe...

Not just Christianity, but a particular flavour of Christianity. A narrowly defined and extremely bad tasting flavour.

74 sagehen  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:03:29pm

re: #27 _RememberTonyC

perhaps the biggest reason that Jews rarely vote Republican is because they fear the mixture of religion and politics. there are plenty of other reasons that some Jews do vote "R," but if the right goes too far in mixing one single religion into the political agenda, they'll forfeit many future Jewish votes that they could really use.


Jews are barely 2% of the electorate, and we're almost all NY or CA. The GOP doesn't much care about our votes as long as they have a handful of high-profile spokesjews who are willing to pretend that we're single-issue voters who only care about Israel (and only the Likud view of Israel at that. Kadima supporters are invited to STFU).

75 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:03:36pm

re: #35 jamesfirecat

And what did Jesus have to say, oh what did he say
About being gay?
Well... nothing...

More complicated, this. He made it clear that He was the fulfillment, rather than the contradiction, to God's relationship with us. As such, basic principles such as "don't commit adultery" aren't fallow simply because he didn't spend time reinforcing them individually.

At the same time, you're right to say that if it was such a huuuge deal, he'd probably have said something memorable to that effect. So, yeah. Christians need to love first ,serve second, and worry about sexual items on an individual basis only...unless you want to tell my first-grader something dumb like "it's perfectly normal to have two daddies".

76 albusteve  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:03:50pm

re: #70 tradewind

Who was the polling audience?
That'd be interesting.

CAIR?

77 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:04:08pm

re: #30 windsagio

Well I missed you Ace :D

you're a good dude

78 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:04:20pm

re: #69 CuriousLurker

I know about these things, trust me :) Alot of the people heavily into these movements are also of the 'deport anyone who likes Sharia!' mindset.

79 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:04:35pm

re: #45 tradewind

Okay, so the US is going full on theocracy... does this mean we'll abandon the problem of illegal aliens, and start targeting illegal atheists?///

NOOooo...


Hey, wait, I don't live in the US.

80 brookly red  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:04:37pm

re: #57 windsagio

Muslims first, then Atheists.

Then Catholics.

well look at that, finally a plan the doesn't put Jews on the bottom of the pile!

81 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:04:54pm

re: #71 albusteve

Was raised in that, it was a hard prejudice to break, kinda.

82 sagehen  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:05:01pm

re: #35 jamesfirecat

And what did Jesus have to say, oh what did he say
About being gay?
Well... nothing...

David and Jonathan, on the other hand, said it was "sweeter than the love of a woman."

83 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:05:03pm

re: #66 windsagio

In the more extreme elements of the Evangelical movement, Catholics are considered essentially no different than pagans, if not actively worse.

That license plate is like a rash all over the computer. The car belongs to a known traffic menace.

What's his name?

His name is Elwood Blues. He's got a record a mile long. And, he's a Catholic.

84 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:05:40pm

re: #65 freetoken

Yes, he is very canny and I agree - he has decided that the future of the "rightist" movement in this country will have more success pushing the religious line than the anti-religious beliefs of some of the original Libertarian Fundamentalists.

Gingrich is deliberately positioning himself as a traditional atavistic conservative, to counter the new libertarian contingent.

They're all squabbling over the bones of a dying movement.

85 Mocking Jay  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:05:41pm

re: #70 tradewind

Who was the polling audience?
That'd be interesting.

I know it was a pew poll. I forgot the rest.

86 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:06:28pm

re: #84 Charles

Which, of course, the rising extremism is a symptom of.

87 brookly red  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:06:59pm

re: #86 windsagio

Which, of course, the rising extremism is a symptom of.

actually it's all YOUR fault.

88 albusteve  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:07:10pm

re: #81 windsagio

Was raised in that, it was a hard prejudice to break, kinda.

I really don't give a damn one way or the other....they are all the same to me, and I never consider my own atheism, not even interested in myself for that matter

89 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:07:21pm

re: #87 brookly red

Shh! Don't expose my secret influence!

90 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:08:11pm

re: #82 sagehen

David and Jonathan, on the other hand, said it was "sweeter than the love of a woman."

It's guy love,
Don't compromise,
The feeeling of some other guy,
Holding up your heart,
Into the sky.

91 albusteve  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:08:21pm

re: #84 Charles

Gingrich is deliberately positioning himself as a traditional atavistic conservative, to counter the new libertarian contingent.

They're all squabbling over the bones of a dying movement.

he's setting himself up for a run...the Universal Proxy....the right will love it

92 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:09:16pm

re: #82 sagehen
As quaint a notion as it may seem, Biblical references to love were not always sexual ones./

93 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:09:46pm

re: #75 Aceofwhat?

...unless you want to tell my first-grader something dumb like "it's perfectly normal to have two daddies".

How about "it's becoming normalized to have two daddies"?

94 sagehen  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:09:55pm

re: #57 windsagio

Muslims first, then Atheists.

Then Catholics.

Where do Mormons fit on the schedule?

95 brookly red  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:09:57pm

re: #89 windsagio

Shh! Don't expose my secret influence!

too late dude Rand Paul already spoke about saving America from Windsagioism... you are toast.

96 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:10:00pm

re: #82 sagehen

David and Jonathan, on the other hand, said it was "sweeter than the love of a woman."

nah. that was just a more lyrical way of saying "bros before...erm...babes..."

;)

97 albusteve  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:10:22pm

so did the left create this beast?...or is this some organic movement?

98 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:11:13pm

re: #75 Aceofwhat?

More complicated, this. He made it clear that He was the fulfillment, rather than the contradiction, to God's relationship with us. As such, basic principles such as "don't commit adultery" aren't fallow simply because he didn't spend time reinforcing them individually.

At the same time, you're right to say that if it was such a huuuge deal, he'd probably have said something memorable to that effect. So, yeah. Christians need to love first ,serve second, and worry about sexual items on an individual basis only...unless you want to tell my first-grader something dumb like "it's perfectly normal to have two daddies".

Hey Jesus had two daddies and look how he turned out!

99 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:11:23pm

re: #85 JasonA

I know it was a pew poll

.
It does smell kinda funny.....

100 freetoken  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:11:27pm

re: #97 albusteve

so did the left create this beast?...or is this some organic movement?

By "this beast" do you mean Gingrich, or Garlow, or Dominionism?

101 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:12:10pm

re: #93 b_sharp

How about "it's becoming normalized to have two daddies"?

"it's accepted" = yes
"It's ok" = yes
"We love all families" = yes
"It's normal" = no

We shouldn't lie to kids about what is 'typical' or 'normal' in order to make them feel loved and accepted.

102 brookly red  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:12:17pm

re: #100 freetoken

By "this beast" do you mean Gingrich, or Garlow, or Dominionism?

/trilogy!

103 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:12:22pm

If we ever see anything remotely like "sharia law" in America, truly? it's going to be these Christian Dominionist creepshows who put it in play.

104 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:12:40pm

re: #94 sagehen

Probably with the Catholics. Same with Jehovah's Witnesses and such. Buddhists and Hindus aren't that threatening so they can wait.

105 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:13:11pm

re: #96 Aceofwhat?
What you said, only unedited.
:)
(Because that was indeed the meaning).

106 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:13:27pm

re: #34 The Curmudgeon

If that's going to be the major message of the GOP, then I'll be outta there. You noticed, I assume, that he makes no mention of the Constitution. Neither party seems to care very much about it these days.

That Barber dude has his own copy!

107 albusteve  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:13:28pm

re: #100 freetoken

By "this beast" do you mean Gingrich, or Garlow, or Dominionism?

yes, all of it

108 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:13:58pm

re: #101 Aceofwhat?

"it's accepted" = yes
"It's ok" = yes
"We love all families" = yes
"It's normal" = no

We shouldn't lie to kids about what is 'typical' or 'normal' in order to make them feel loved and accepted.

But by the same token it must be explained that within a certain degree deviations from normality are not something that we should make a fuss over.

Otherwise we'll end up right back in the land of "you're using the wrong hand to eat/write with, you're weird and gross!"

109 albusteve  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:14:17pm

re: #103 WindUpBird

If we ever see anything remotely like "sharia law" in America, truly? it's going to be these Christian Dominionist creepshows who put it in play.

I refuse to change my sexual habits

110 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:14:21pm

re: #35 jamesfirecat

And what did Jesus have to say, oh what did he say
About being gay?
Well... nothing...

Jesus was a terrible culture warrior. Let's face it.

111 brookly red  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:14:49pm

re: #108 jamesfirecat

But by the same token it must be explained that within a certain degree deviations from normality are not something that we should make a fuss over.

Otherwise we'll end up right back in the land of "you're using the wrong hand to eat/write with, you're weird and gross!"

/ I always figured you to be a lefty...

112 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:14:54pm

re: #101 Aceofwhat?
A child may have two parents who are male, but not two Dads. Strictly speaking, only one of those swimmers makes the cut.

113 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:14:57pm

re: #109 albusteve

Man it sounds like theres a story behind that!

Please tell us :D

114 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:15:33pm

re: #101 Aceofwhat?

"it's accepted" = yes
"It's ok" = yes
"We love all families" = yes
"It's normal" = no

We shouldn't lie to kids about what is 'typical' or 'normal' in order to make them feel loved and accepted.

How are you defining normal Ace?

115 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:15:35pm

re: #103 WindUpBird

If we ever see anything remotely like "sharia law" in America, truly? it's going to be these Christian Dominionist creepshows who put it in play.

The fact that they're not actually very different is really... something to me.

116 brookly red  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:15:37pm

re: #109 albusteve

I refuse to change my sexual habits

still rule the bunk house huh?

117 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:15:48pm

re: #43 brookly red

same shit different day.

Not entirely. The party can speak for itself. The church sometimes seems to be writing check's in God's name that She may or may not cash.

118 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:16:04pm

re: #114 b_sharp

Can't speak for Ace, but I'd imagine he means 'mainstream'.

119 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:16:15pm

re: #75 Aceofwhat?

More complicated, this. He made it clear that He was the fulfillment, rather than the contradiction, to God's relationship with us. As such, basic principles such as "don't commit adultery" aren't fallow simply because he didn't spend time reinforcing them individually.

At the same time, you're right to say that if it was such a huuuge deal, he'd probably have said something memorable to that effect. So, yeah. Christians need to love first ,serve second, and worry about sexual items on an individual basis only...unless you want to tell my first-grader something dumb like "it's perfectly normal to have two daddies".

it's not normal, but it's also not normal for a fourth grader to know how to code in Pascal, it's not normal for a 14 year old to be taking college courses in art. Normal is for other people, not me :D

As long as nobody says it's suboptimal or it's bad for the kid to have gay parents, we're all cool!

120 albusteve  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:16:38pm

re: #116 brookly red

still rule the bunk house huh?

I fear for my laundry girls, they're pagans

121 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:16:43pm

re: #115 windsagio
One of those things is not like the other.

122 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:16:47pm

re: #47 albusteve

for one thing, I assume I'm cursed...then what?...do I have to extrapolate a hit squad of Jesus freaks to lay siege to the bunkhouse...I don't conform or submit to anybody...except my mom of course

"Me? I'm a rational empiricist all the way. Unless my mother asks, in which case I'm a Lutheran."

123 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:16:56pm

re: #108 jamesfirecat

But by the same token it must be explained that within a certain degree deviations from normality are not something that we should make a fuss over.

Otherwise we'll end up right back in the land of "you're using the wrong hand to eat/write with, you're weird and gross!"

Absolutely. No one is normal. We're all a deviation from 'normality'.

124 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:17:31pm

re: #103 WindUpBird

If we ever see anything remotely like "sharia law" in America, truly? it's going to be these Christian Dominionist creepshows who put it in play.

This is one front in their religious war:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

125 albusteve  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:17:32pm

re: #122 SanFranciscoZionist

"Me? I'm a rational empiricist all the way. Unless my mother asks, in which case I'm a Lutheran."

haha!....good one

126 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:17:35pm

re: #119 WindUpBird

it's not normal, but it's also not normal for a fourth grader to know how to code in Pascal, it's not normal for a 14 year old to be taking college courses in art. Normal is for other people, not me :D

As long as nobody says it's suboptimal or it's bad for the kid to have gay parents, we're all cool!

Bingo! Who's normal, anyway? I'm a strange dude...

127 brookly red  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:17:48pm

re: #123 Aceofwhat?

Absolutely. No one is normal. We're all a deviation from 'normality'.

you put pineapple on it didn't you?...

128 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:17:55pm

re: #57 windsagio

Muslims first, then Atheists.

Then Catholics.

The Jews will come along later in the operation, when it becomes clear that we're not hurrying the hell up and converting en masse. Also, that we persist in having nonconforming interpretations of the text.

129 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:18:00pm

My 100 year old house has an old fashioned larder in the basement. I've been here for over 10 years and I've only poked my head in there a few times. I didn't even figure out what it really was until a few months ago. I finally cleaned out all the old paint cans and cleaned it. I found a box of tobacco stashed in a corner from August 1921.

So far it's only stocked with rice, peanut butter, sardines and store bought potatoes. I can't wait to see how much I can will it up with goodies from the garden before winter sets in.

130 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:18:04pm

re: #109 albusteve
Sigh. That's what some good friends I used to work with told me back in the early nineties.
I miss them.

131 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:18:22pm

re: #44 windsagio

I was starting to argue against that point to some, but I realized that its a dry socket.

Lets just agree that Gingrich is a true slimeball, and it doesn't matter whether he's a unique slimeball or not.

Gingrich kept getting talked up a while ago as a"reasonable" conservative or a Buckley-esque member of the brain trust of the GOP.

Guess that ship has sailed! Just another GOPer throwing in with the fanatics.

132 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:18:57pm

re: #129 Killgore Trout

Do you dry your fruit from the summer?

133 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:19:11pm

re: #78 windsagio

I know about these things, trust me :) Alot of the people heavily into these movements are also of the 'deport anyone who likes Sharia!' mindset.

Ah, but Muslims at least believe in God; atheists don't—i.e. they might be able to "reform" the Muslims, atheists not so much.

FWIW, I know the mindset too; when I was a kid my mom, while never a Dominionist, went all born-again-shove-it-down-your-throat-speaking-in-tongues-PTL Club Christian.

It was a HIGHLY unpleasant thing to live with. That crap destroyed our family life and altered my relationship with my mother in a way were were never able to recover from (even after she returned the traditional Church). I have serious issues with zealots wanna be theocrats.

134 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:19:19pm

re: #118 windsagio

Can't speak for Ace, but I'd imagine he means 'mainstream'.

If that is the case, then, as most aspects of culture do, normal is changing. As the idea of two dads, or two moms becomes normalized in society through wider acceptance, they will become 'mainstream'.

135 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:19:38pm

re: #74 sagehen

Jews are barely 2% of the electorate, and we're almost all NY or CA. The GOP doesn't much care about our votes as long as they have a handful of high-profile spokesjews who are willing to pretend that we're single-issue voters who only care about Israel (and only the Likud view of Israel at that. Kadima supporters are invited to STFU).

How about Meretz? My dad is developing a deep interest in Meretz. Of course, my dad is also a Catholic, so he's just screwing up this program right and left.

136 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:20:18pm

re: #112 tradewind

A child may have two parents who are male, but not two Dads. Strictly speaking, only one of those swimmers makes the cut.

Eh. Dad is a verb, like love. A baby removed from a dangerous home who grows up with a loving adoptive family has parents/mom/dad/whatever...regardless of their lack of genetic relationship.

137 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:20:27pm

re: #128 SanFranciscoZionist

I dunno if its a good thing or a bad thing, but I keep forgetting about Jews entirely.

138 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:20:43pm

re: #20 Aceofwhat?

Good to have you back, Ace!

139 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:20:47pm

re: #127 brookly red

you put pineapple on it didn't you?...

hell no.

i'm strange, but i'm not an idiot/

140 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:20:52pm

re: #131 WindUpBird
Gingrich's ideas may not be okay with you, which is fine, but the man has an incredible intellect.

141 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:21:01pm

re: #82 sagehen

David and Jonathan, on the other hand, said it was "sweeter than the love of a woman."

Poor Saul...all of his kids fell for that sweet-talkin', harp-playin' dude, one by one...

142 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:21:38pm

re: #138 CuriousLurker

Good to have you back, Ace!

Cheers! It's good to be hanging out with you good people again-

143 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:21:49pm

re: #132 Floral Giraffe

Do you dry your fruit from the summer?

I usually dry pears, figs and plums.
Dried figs with lavendar and honey is one of my favorites. They usually all get eaten by Christmas.

144 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:22:08pm

re: #133 CuriousLurker

I grew up in a very similar situation, actually, thats why I speak so strongly about it :D

I just don't like people carrying on about how they're persecuted when they're really not. That's part of the Fundie/Dominionist mindset as well.

145 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:22:26pm

re: #137 windsagio

I dunno if its a good thing or a bad thing, but I keep forgetting about Jews entirely.

///Well they wouldn't be able to control the world if people were paying attention to them would they?

146 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:22:37pm

re: #103 WindUpBird

If we ever see anything remotely like "sharia law" in America, truly? it's going to be these Christian Dominionist creepshows who put it in play.

Reporter: "Senator Long, could Fascism ever come to America?"

Senator Huey Long: "Yeah, but it'll come calling itself Anti-Fascism."

147 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:22:41pm

re: #121 tradewind

One of those things is not like the other.

We have laws in this country that prevent "sharia law".

And Dominionists are trying to weaken and destroy those laws.

So they're actually quite similar! As we saw with Dominionists advocating the death penalty for gay people in Uganda, we see their true face. We see the true evil of these people. They'd absolutely advocate for the murder of gay people in America if the political climate allowed for it.

it's just that America has this nifty thing called a Constitution, so the Dominionist freakshow crowd has an insurmountable task ahead of them. Which is probably good for an opportunist like Gingrich, he can sort of dangle the carrot to these people and never really fulfill their wishes.

148 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:23:39pm

re: #143 Killgore Trout

I usually dry pears, figs and plums.
Dried figs with lavendar and honey is one of my favorites. They usually all get eaten by Christmas.

Now, you have a larder to store more!

149 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:23:47pm

re: #112 tradewind

A child may have two parents who are male, but not two Dads. Strictly speaking, only one of those swimmers makes the cut.

A swimmer may make you a biological father. It doesn't necessarily make you a Dad, and is not required to achieve Dad-dom.

150 PhillyPretzel  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:24:10pm

Good Night my fellow Lizards

151 darthstar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:24:21pm

Well, praise the lord and pass the ammunition!

152 Mr. Hammer  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:24:30pm

re: #129 Killgore Trout

I've got one of those too... the 100 year old house, not the larder. Something always needs doing...

153 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:24:52pm

re: #136 Aceofwhat?
I was speaking literally. I'm fine with two men raising a child, if they're fit parents.... I just don't love the phrase ' two daddies ', or ' two mommies '.
It sounds too cute by half, and almost as if it's trying to justify a condition, which is not necessary.

154 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:25:00pm

re: #151 darthstar

Well, praise the lord and pass the ammunition!

Youtube Video
155 sagehen  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:25:10pm

re: #135 SanFranciscoZionist

How about Meretz? My dad is developing a deep interest in Meretz. Of course, my dad is also a Catholic, so he's just screwing up this program right and left.

Socialist!

156 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:25:14pm

Apropos of nothing, because I find it damn funny:


Fuck You, Fuck the plane you flew in on, Fuck them shoes, Fuck the socks with the belt on it, Fuck yo accent, Fuck them Cheap ass Cigars, Fuck yo yuck mouth teath, Fuck yo hairpiece, Fuck yo chocolate, Fuck Guy Ritchie, Fuck Prince WIlliam, Fuck the Queen!

That's telling somebody off rightly >>

157 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:25:17pm

re: #144 windsagio

I grew up in a very similar situation, actually, thats why I speak so strongly about it :D

So you know exactly how I feel about it then. That's good as it's hard to describe to anyone who hasn't lived it.

I just don't like people carrying on about how they're persecuted when they're really not. That's part of the Fundie/Dominionist mindset as well.

Quoted for truth.

158 darthstar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:25:18pm

re: #129 Killgore Trout

Have you tried smoking it?

159 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:25:41pm

re: #114 b_sharp

How are you defining normal Ace?

in a numerical fashion. blonde is normal in Sweden, black is normal in Mozambique...basically, it's a useless definition as it pertains to accepting others. i wish to strike it from elementary school vocabulary.

160 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:26:01pm

re: #140 tradewind

Gingrich's ideas may not be okay with you, which is fine, but the man has an incredible intellect.

Actually, I think he's of average intelligence for a mainstream politician. Not stupid, not really brilliant. He was pretty much disgraced, so if that's your standard for "incredible", hey, you're welcome to it!

Gingrich has argued that it is necessary to “save America” and stop Obama's "secular socialist machine.” He has characterized Obama's universal health care reform as leading America towards authoritarianism, totalitarianism, and the end of democracy.

Boy howdy, that is some Yale Doctorate stuff right there! What a thinker!

161 sagehen  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:26:39pm

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

Poor Saul...all of his kids fell for that sweet-talkin', harp-playin' dude, one by one...

Redheads'll do that to you.

162 Mr. Hammer  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:27:06pm

re: #156 windsagio

Apropos of nothing, because I find it damn funny:
That's telling somebody off rightly >>

A song by the GoGo's, right?

163 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:27:21pm

re: #153 tradewind

I was speaking literally. I'm fine with two men raising a child, if they're fit parents... I just don't love the phrase ' two daddies ', or ' two mommies '.
It sounds too cute by half, and almost as if it's trying to justify a condition, which is not necessary.

Nobody cares if you love it, it's not for you. Nobody cares what you think of anyone's family unit or what a kid calls his parental figures.

164 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:27:22pm

re: #148 Floral Giraffe

Now, you have a larder to store more!

I think they'll also store better. The room is completely dark and has vents to the outside to allow cool air to circulate. I started storing potatoes in there about a month ago and they're as good as new. I'm used to potatoes sprouting eyes in my kitchen within a week.

I really want to try hanging homemade bacon one of these days.

165 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:27:35pm

re: #147 WindUpBird
Okay. I don't know anything about Dominionists, but when a bunch of them fly an airplane into a building, or start killing women who have been raped in the name of honor, I'll reconsider your argument.

166 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:27:56pm

Check out this link in the pages:

In this piece from Dutch News we find the alleged sources of US funding for Geert Wilders's Partij voor de Vrijheid (Party For Freedom). Of particular note are David Horowitz, Daniel Pipes, Jim DeMint, Liz Cheney and, of course Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

167 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:28:16pm

re: #157 CuriousLurker

re: #157 CuriousLurker

So you know exactly how I feel about it then. That's good as it's hard to describe to anyone who hasn't lived it.


Does provide useful insight to people tho', so its not all bad (I guess :p)

The other thing to consider for this, is the overwhelming idea that the world is ending soon anyways, so they NEED to take extreme measures.

168 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:28:19pm

re: #144 windsagio

I grew up in a very similar situation, actually, thats why I speak so strongly about it :D

I just don't like people carrying on about how they're persecuted when they're really not. That's part of the Fundie/Dominionist mindset as well.

The perpetual victims! Boo hoo, we don't get to shit all over the establishment cause, weep weep.

169 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:28:20pm

re: #158 darthstar

Have you tried smoking it?

The tobacco? No, it looks pretty well spent.

170 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:29:18pm

re: #160 WindUpBird
It's not my standard. His political opponents are among those who concede his intelligence.
It doesn't mean he has an oversupply of common sense, either.

171 darthstar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:29:27pm

re: #160 WindUpBird

Boy howdy, that is some Yale Doctorate stuff right there! What a thinker!

Well, when you consider the high bar for "incredible intellect" in the GOP was set at the World Limbo Championships, Gingrich is up there.

Youtube Video
172 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:29:28pm

Good luck on establishing that theocracy in the freest nation in the history of the world.

BTW, remember what Christ said about his not establishing an earthly kingdom? You might want to take it into consideration.

173 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:29:33pm

re: #153 tradewind

I was speaking literally. I'm fine with two men raising a child, if they're fit parents... I just don't love the phrase ' two daddies ', or ' two mommies '.
It sounds too cute by half, and almost as if it's trying to justify a condition, which is not necessary.

Eh, it's how a child describes a family. As one adult to another I would say "it's a two-Dad household", which may sound damn near as adorable, but what are you going to do?

174 freetoken  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:29:35pm

re: #107 albusteve

yes, all of it

Wikipedia has an article on Dominionism that covers the basics.

I'm probably one of the few people here who have read Van Til, Rushdoony, and North (and some of the others like Bahnsen). That was many years ago, but I read enough, and met enough local dominionists, to get a grasp of what was going on.

I rather like their interpretation of the Book of Revelation, if for no other reason than the Hal Lindsey school of preaching is so simultaneously smarmy and offensive.

Ultimately the idea, put forward (in its modern form, though the history goes all the way back to Augustine) by Van Til, is that human methods of thinking are too flawed (sinful), and thus only the Word of God can be used to develop any world view. Rushdoony then took this idea and applied it to politics, education, etc. And, with a preterist view of Revelations and prophecy, Rushdoony et. al. concluded that they "win" over time, so they were assured victory.

From there Rushdoony's son in law Gary North, and a bunch of others, started to popularize this message. When the wealth&health gospel folk (Oral Roberts and all his successors) started to want to influence politics more they discovered in Dominionism the theoretical foundation from which to strike out. Up till then, the common belief in many denominations was the the church shouldn't soil itself getting involved in Earthly matters.

When the non-Pentacostals but conservative Christians were looking for more influence, they likewise started to pick up Dominionist memes. With the idea that an imminent Rapture (a la Hal Lindsey) going out of vogue, the more religious seem to have gravitated to dominion-like ideas to keep themselves engaged.

Well, that is my take on it.

Gingrich is, and always has been, an opportunist.

As for Garlow - I don't know him. I did hear his predecessor preach, and he seemed like a decent enough guy. But what appears to have happened to Skyline is probably symptomatic of Evangelicalism in America.


There is a counter movement led by the so called "liberal" churches, but they don't seem as influential. I guess religiosity benefits from rah-rah "victory" ideas.

American religious history, and indeed a great deal of our history is imbued with religion, is littered with these ideas. Now with the internet, modern media, and a general backlash against the hectic pace of modern innovation these ideas are finding new life.

175 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:30:03pm

re: #164 Killgore Trout
Couldn't you just try lethal injection?/

176 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:30:06pm

re: #152 Mr. Hammer

I've got one of those too... the 100 year old house, not the larder. Something always needs doing...

I like it.. creaky wood floors but well built. Reasonably solid but it does sway pretty goody when we get earthquakes.

177 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:30:10pm

re: #156 windsagio

Apropos of nothing, because I find it damn funny:

That's telling somebody off rightly >>

Envelop yourself, and the horse you oppressed by riding in on!

178 sagehen  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:30:29pm

re: #146 Dark_Falcon

Reporter: "Senator Long, could Fascism ever come to America?"

Senator Huey Long: "Yeah, but it'll come calling itself Anti-Fascism."


Sinclair Lewis: "When fascism comes to this country, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross."

179 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:31:08pm

re: #165 tradewind

Oh, you!

180 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:31:25pm

Check out this photo of the surf in Alabama.

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

181 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:31:28pm

re: #173 SanFranciscoZionist
What I'm going to do is abandon this.... evidently,what I meant to say isn't getting through. Two Daddies.... fine.
No question there's a big difference between a sperm donor and a loving father.

182 freetoken  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:31:32pm

re: #129 Killgore Trout

So far it's only stocked with rice, peanut butter, sardines and store bought potatoes. I can't wait to see how much I can will it up with goodies from the garden before winter sets in.


Don't forget the NONHYBRID SEEDS!!

183 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:31:59pm

re: #180 Stanley Sea

Are you trying to depress me? >>

184 darthstar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:32:00pm

re: #172 MandyManners

Good luck on establishing that theocracy in the freest nation in the history of the world.

BTW, remember what Christ said about his not establishing an earthly kingdom? You might want to take it into consideration.

Sorry...the US only comes in 12th in the 'freest nation' contest....at least that was the case in 2005.


Hong Kong retained its top ranking in the survey, followed by Singapore, Luxembourg and Estonia. Ireland and New Zealand tied for fifth place, followed by Britain, Denmark, Iceland and Australia in the top 10. Chile ranked 11th.
185 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:32:23pm

re: #165 tradewind

Okay. I don't know anything about Dominionists, but when a bunch of them fly an airplane into a building, or start killing women who have been raped in the name of honor, I'll reconsider your argument.

How about when they force women who have been raped to have ultrasounds via vaginal probings?

186 darthstar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:33:19pm

re: #180 Stanley Sea

Check out this photo of the surf in Alabama.

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

As hideous as that is, it's a beautiful photograph.

187 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:33:41pm

re: #183 windsagio

Are you trying to depress me? >>

Yeah, I dropped a double whammy there I know.

188 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:33:42pm

re: #184 darthstar

Lol, heritage foundation!

You sly dog!

189 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:33:48pm

re: #74 sagehen

Jews are barely 2% of the electorate, and we're almost all NY or CA. The GOP doesn't much care about our votes as long as they have a handful of high-profile spokesjews who are willing to pretend that we're single-issue voters who only care about Israel (and only the Likud view of Israel at that. Kadima supporters are invited to STFU).

NY and CA are huge states and any party that wins both has a great chance to win the election. Jews may be just 2% but they vote in disproportionate numbers and in a close election, it could matter.

190 Mr. Hammer  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:33:57pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

I like it.. creaky wood floors but well built. Reasonably solid but it does sway pretty goody when we get earthquakes.

Mine too. Lath & plaster, vestiges of knob & tube wiring, and not many 90 degree angles here, but lots of character. No earthquakes here in Mayberry, thankfully.

191 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:34:03pm

re: #186 darthstar

You do have a point there. Its really... Something.

192 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:34:11pm

re: #184 darthstar

I think that's a specifically a 'free economy' standard.

193 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:34:28pm

re: #156 windsagio
My Mama would tell you that's just a lack of imagination./

194 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:34:54pm

That is one scary video clip, it's about power, not love.

195 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:35:28pm

re: #192 SanFranciscoZionist

I think that's the joke :D

196 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:35:51pm

re: #185 jamesfirecat
They go door to door and hunt these women down, do they?/
Not going down that road.

197 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:35:56pm
The idea that a congressman would be tainted by accepting
money from private industry or private sources is essentially
a socialist argument.

-Newt Gingrich

198 darthstar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:35:57pm

re: #188 windsagio

Lol, heritage foundation!

You sly dog!

Yep...damn liberal self-hating American group, that one is...

199 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:35:59pm

re: #171 darthstar

Well, when you consider the high bar for "incredible intellect" in the GOP was set at the World Limbo Championships, Gingrich is up there.


[Video]

Chomsky has a nice intellect on him, too. Technically, i think she's right...realistically, we often place too much emphasis on a narrow definition of savoir-faire, or whatever the most accurate term would be.

200 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:36:20pm

re: #189 _RememberTonyC

NY and CA are huge states and any party that wins both has a great chance to win the election. Jews may be just 2% but they vote in disproportionate numbers and in a close election, it could matter.

The one problem is that NY and CA are both frequently known as "solid blue" states in Presidential elections.

I haven't seen the figures, but can we break down why this is and how easy it would be for jews voting one way or the other to change it (and possibly as close as we can get to knowing how many already vote democrat)

201 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:36:29pm

re: #185 jamesfirecat

How about when they force women who have been raped to have ultrasounds via vaginal probings?

Remember, THEIR fanatics are crazy! OUR fanatics, bless their little hearts :D

202 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:36:56pm

re: #196 tradewind

They go door to door and hunt these women down, do they?/
Not going down that road.

No they pass a law that says women can't get an abortion without undergoing that operation.

203 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:37:06pm

re: #173 SanFranciscoZionist

Eh, it's how a child describes a family. As one adult to another I would say "it's a two-Dad household", which may sound damn near as adorable, but what are you going to do?

Yep. Mom and Dad, like 'love', are verbs as well as nouns.

204 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:37:20pm

re: #201 WindUpBird

Actually, you know stuff and things.

Find a left-equivalent of the 'intrusive ultrasound' thing.

205 funky chicken  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:37:51pm

re: #5 Charles

Newt Gingrich seems to be going all the way religious right.

Gingrich has been in with this crowd for years. Don't you remember his stupid "confession" to James Dobson about his multiple divorces and marriages? That was back in what, 2006 or something?

I listened to the guy's spiel, and it sounds like other kinds of "leadership training" that both my husband and I were forced to sit through, just with a fundamentalist Christian angle. Set your goals, find leaders, locate/groom future leaders, blah, blah, blah. Shudder.

206 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:38:19pm

re: #189 _RememberTonyC

NY and CA are huge states and any party that wins both has a great chance to win the election. Jews may be just 2% but they vote in disproportionate numbers and in a close election, it could matter.

Jews are only 3.3 percent of the population of California, there are a number of states with higher percentages of Jews. As for New York, it's been solidly blue in every presidential election since Reagan left office.

207 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:38:45pm

re: #196 tradewind

They go door to door and hunt these women down, do they?/
Not going down that road.

No, they pass laws.

208 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:39:00pm

re: #203 Aceofwhat?

Dad isn't a verb dammit!

"father" can be a gerund tho' ;)

209 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:39:09pm

re: #167 windsagio

Does provide useful insight to people tho', so its not all bad (I guess :p)

True that. I remember.... GAH! Forget it, I don't even want to think about it because I'll blow a fuse. Suffice it to say that I didn't feel a lot of love & tolerance emanating from those people.

210 darthstar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:39:28pm

re: #199 Aceofwhat?

Ha! You're a good egg, Ace.

211 funky chicken  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:39:35pm

re: #184 darthstar

Hong Kong and Singapore are "freeer" than the United States. Um, really?

212 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:39:42pm

re: #184 darthstar

Freest economy, not freest nation.

Big difference, there.

213 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:39:47pm

Mandy dear this is for you, Marian Anderson sings Deep River.

Youtube Video
214 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:40:19pm

re: #209 CuriousLurker

Sounds like your siutation was substantially worse than mine, actually.

Don't have much resentment left, mostly wonderment of the 'wtf was that about?' vein :)

215 sagehen  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:40:23pm

re: #189 _RememberTonyC

NY and CA are huge states and any party that wins both has a great chance to win the election. Jews may be just 2% but they vote in disproportionate numbers and in a close election, it could matter.

And neither state will ever vote for an anti-immigration party.

216 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:41:13pm

re: #172 MandyManners

Good luck on establishing that theocracy in the freest nation in the history of the world.

BTW, remember what Christ said about his not establishing an earthly kingdom? You might want to take it into consideration.

Hey Mandy! How is your mom?

217 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:41:23pm

re: #192 SanFranciscoZionist

I think that's a specifically a 'free economy' standard.

SFZ > gmta > Aceofwhat

218 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:41:49pm

re: #215 sagehen

And neither state will ever vote for an anti-immigration party.

Well, hell, we elected Pete Wilson.

And may yet elect Meg Whitman.

219 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:41:53pm

re: #182 freetoken

Don't forget the NONHYBRID SEEDS!!

Goooold!

220 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:42:47pm

re: #208 windsagio

Dad isn't a verb dammit!

"father" can be a gerund tho' ;)

Dude.

The business trip + vacation included the family.

This dad is tired. It's a verb!

221 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:42:50pm

re: #135 SanFranciscoZionist

How about Meretz? My dad is developing a deep interest in Meretz. Of course, my dad is also a Catholic, so he's just screwing up this program right and left.

Meretz is everything J Street wants to be, except a failure.

222 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:43:58pm

re: #210 darthstar

Ha! You're a good egg, Ace.

just trying to help;)

223 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:44:09pm

Did anyone watch Earth 2100? Pretty scary, downright fearmongering.

224 Bloodnok  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:44:28pm

According to author Ryan Sager in The Elephant in the Room Gingrich complained that:

"Nobody's gotten up and said the Danish cartoon offensive is a major military defeat for the United States."

This dashed any last shred of hope that I had that the guy was sane. Not that I really had any since 1996 or so.

225 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:45:16pm

I can't help but wonder if this explains the freakish weather we've had here this Spring....
What's wrong with the sun?

226 darthstar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:45:24pm

re: #192 SanFranciscoZionist

I think that's a specifically a 'free economy' standard.

Not a factor in free nation status? I mean, I love my country as much as the next person, but it's not without fault. The 'freest nation' claim is a sign of insecurity. I don't worry that we are or aren't the 'freest nation' in the world. That title is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. The important thing is whether people have a good quality of life...and too many people in this country (and all of the other countries on the planet) have a poor quality of life.

227 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:45:45pm

re: #223 Rightwingconspirator

Did anyone watch Earth 2100? Pretty scary, downright fearmongering.

What did it feature?

228 freetoken  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:45:54pm

re: #223 Rightwingconspirator

Did anyone watch Earth 2100? Pretty scary, downright fearmongering.

What channel was it on?

229 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:45:57pm

re: #218 SanFranciscoZionist

We elected Jerry Brown and Ronald Reagan, back-to-back, even, IIRC.

230 darthstar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:46:36pm

re: #229 Ojoe

We elected Jerry Brown and Ronald Reagan, back-to-back, even, IIRC.

And if all goes well, we'll elect Jerry Brown again.

231 sagehen  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:47:45pm

re: #218 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, hell, we elected Pete Wilson.

And may yet elect Meg Whitman.


Wilson's the one who turned a swing state deep blue.

Eisenhower, Nixon (3 times!), Ford, Reagan and Bush I all won California.

232 freetoken  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:48:10pm

re: #229 Ojoe

We elected Jerry Brown and Ronald Reagan, back-to-back, even, IIRC.

Well, Iowa keeps returning both Harkin and Grassley to the Senate - two senators who are (theoretically) polar opposites in views.

233 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:48:16pm

re: #216 CapeCoddah

Hey Mandy! How is your mom?

Right now she's off of oxygen but, she still has the machine.

Thank you for asking, CC!

How're you and yours?

234 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:48:41pm

re: #206 SanFranciscoZionist
True, but then again, remember what just happened to the Kennedy Memorial Senatorial Seat.
These are strange times.

235 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:48:55pm

re: #230 darthstar

That would be fine with me.

He's still alive too.

The R's would run R.W.R. if they could find a way to freshen him up enough.

236 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:49:18pm

re: #224 Bloodnok

According to author Ryan Sager in The Elephant in the Room Gingrich complained that:


This dashed any last shred of hope that I had that the guy was sane. Not that I really had any since 1996 or so.

How many nswspapers carried that cartoon?

237 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:49:19pm

re: #225 Killgore Trout

I can't help but wonder if this explains the freakish weather we've had here this Spring...
What's wrong with the sun?

That article was really cool. Thanks, KT.

238 freetoken  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:49:32pm

Arnold achieves some changes, which are small but necessary steps in addressing this state's budget problems:

Schwarzenegger, some unions cut pension deal

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger cut a deal with four public employee unions Wednesday on new labor contracts that will reduce state contributions to employee pensions and scale back worker pay, Capitol Weekly reports.

"The proposed agreements include increasing the retirement age for new hires, boosting the workers' contribution to [the Public Employees' Retirement System) and using three-year top-pay formula instead of one year to calculate pension levels. All the changes -– and others -– had been sought by Gov. Schwarzenegger as part of his pension-reform efforts to help balance the red-ink state budget," Capitol Weekly said.

239 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:49:53pm

re: #225 Killgore Trout

I can't help but wonder if this explains the freakish weather we've had here this Spring...
What's wrong with the sun?

Give your tads a hug from me.

240 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:50:17pm

re: #235 Ojoe
He's probably registered as a democrat voter in IL.

241 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:50:22pm

re: #227 Dark_Falcon

What did it feature?

History International. Apocalyptic vision of a second dark ages following global warming and a seven ti ten meter rise in sea levels. Collapse of the Greenland ice sheet. A near end of the ozone layer as a result of sulfur dioxide gas being spread via air fleets to cool the earth. Narrated by Oprah Winfrey I think.

242 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:50:31pm

re: #214 windsagio

Sounds like your siutation was substantially worse than mine, actually.

I don't know. It might have been, or it might just be that I was very shy & sensitive as a kid and took everything to heart.

Don't have much resentment left, mostly wonderment of the 'wtf was that about?' vein :)

I'm not resentful towards my mom anymore, but I have a significant store of very angry kick-ass left over for any zealot (of any stripe) that wants get in my way.

243 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:51:17pm

re: #228 freetoken

It's LVQ's nightmare scenario. History International

244 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:51:19pm

re: #231 sagehen

Wilson's the one who turned a swing state deep blue.

Eisenhower, Nixon (3 times!), Ford, Reagan and Bush I all won California.

People fail to remember this. There is this fantasy that all of California votes like North Hollywood.

245 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:51:20pm

re: #239 MandyManners
Oh gosh... I had to read that one again./

246 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:51:40pm

re: #226 darthstar

Not a factor in free nation status? I mean, I love my country as much as the next person, but it's not without fault. The 'freest nation' claim is a sign of insecurity.

Do you mean that you think the Heritage article was actually talking about 'free nation' rather than 'free economy', or that you think it's significant that the website you linked altered the title to 'freest nation'?

247 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:52:02pm

re: #241 Rightwingconspirator
/Not going to say a word about methane/.........

248 freetoken  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:52:41pm

re: #225 Killgore Trout

I can't help but wonder if this explains the freakish weather we've had here this Spring...
What's wrong with the sun?

Probably not. A better explanation is the Pacific Decadal Oscillation. If you look at the NCDC map of temperature anomalies (linked in the Featured Pages) you'll see a somewhat backward crescent shaped cool temperature region throughout the NE Pacific. This is thought to be characteristic of the PDO.

249 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:52:51pm

re: #244 SanFranciscoZionist
Isn't Orange County largely Republican?

250 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:53:23pm

re: #184 darthstar

Sorry...the US only comes in 12th in the 'freest nation' contest....at least that was the case in 2005.

Mandy was talking about religious freedoms, the report you cite from the Heritage Foundation is talking about economic freedom.

251 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:54:00pm

re: #249 tradewind

It was very "R" when I was growing up in LA in the 50s and 60s.

252 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:54:00pm

re: #241 Rightwingconspirator

History International. Apocalyptic vision of a second dark ages following global warming and a seven ti ten meter rise in sea levels. Collapse of the Greenland ice sheet. A near end of the ozone layer as a result of sulfur dioxide gas being spread via air fleets to cool the earth. Narrated by Oprah Winfrey I think.

We should see what Ludwig thinks about it, but it seems over the top to me.

253 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:54:08pm

re: #238 freetoken

Arnold achieves some changes, which are small but necessary steps in addressing this state's budget problems:

Schwarzenegger, some unions cut pension deal

Thank heavens. Cali public employee compensation is...uhhh...weird.

254 freetoken  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:54:32pm

re: #241 Rightwingconspirator

I rather hate those Roland Emmerich-ish apocalyptic shows.

AGW is best thought of as a chronic problem with small, but increasing, magnitude of effects. Eventually they all add up to big big changes, but they come in small bits.

255 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:54:39pm

re: #238 freetoken

Arnold achieves some changes, which are small but necessary steps in addressing this state's budget problems:

Schwarzenegger, some unions cut pension deal

That is good news. Cali sorely needs such deals.

256 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:55:22pm

re: #215 sagehen

And neither state will ever vote for an anti-immigration party.

perhaps that is true, but the right candidate from the GOP side matters a LOT. One of the reasons I like Mitt Romney is that he is not a slave to the religious right. he may never get the nomination because of it, but if the GOP wants to win in 2012, he gives them their best chance out of all the "players" I have seen so far. He was a popular GOP gov in a "deep blue" state, and while he is mildly tainted for having appeared before certain groups, he has largely avoided the real crazies on the right. He is a sober and sophisticated candidate who could win a general election, even though he may have trouble with some conservative voters in his own party. And BTW, his intellect is at least equal to Obama's and he has many more years of executive experience.

257 avanti  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:55:25pm

New Dodge Challenger commercial, two things America got right, cars and freedom:

Youtube Video
258 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:55:28pm

BBL, food calls me for food!

259 Kragar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:55:31pm

re: #243 Rightwingconspirator

It's LVQ's nightmare scenario. History International

End it comes to the End Times, I favor cooperation to survive, followed by being able to outgun any serious threats

260 Ojoe  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:56:14pm

re: #254 freetoken

For most of Earth's climate history there was no ice at the poles, scientists think.

261 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:56:18pm

re: #250 Bagua

Mandy was talking about religious freedoms, the report you cite from the Heritage Foundation is talking about economic freedom.

Hong Kong is a great place to do business BTW, no capital gains tax.

262 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:56:23pm

re: #244 SanFranciscoZionist

May I "devils advocate" a bit?
Also shows not in a long time. And the demographic shift is urban, that means more Democratic. Add immigration rhetoric and there goes the Latino vote.

263 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:56:24pm

re: #245 tradewind

Oh gosh... I had to read that one again./

*gasp*

LOL!

264 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:56:49pm

re: #238 freetoken
He's going to have to Terminate a bunch of entitlements if they want to live.....

265 freetoken  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:56:52pm

re: #243 Rightwingconspirator

OK, thanks. Unlikely to see it unless it is put on Hulu or Netflix. If I ever watch it I'll try to remember to write a review.

266 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:57:54pm

re: #254 freetoken

To be fair they put this out over the course of the century. I sorta compressed it a lot in my post. 90 years in a nine second read.

267 darthstar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:58:25pm

re: #250 Bagua

Mandy was talking about religious freedoms, the report you cite from the Heritage Foundation is talking about economic freedom.

Okay...so if we look at the outrage over a mosque in New York then, could you still say we're the freest nation in the world in religious terms? Are the "prayer in school" advocates saying it's okay for Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and Jews to have equal representation during prayer time?

268 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:58:27pm

re: #250 Bagua

Mandy was talking about religious freedoms, the report you cite from the Heritage Foundation is talking about economic freedom.

Thank you.

269 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:58:28pm

re: #256 _RememberTonyC
Dammit! Goldwater was born 50 years before his time.......

270 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:59:25pm

re: #249 tradewind

Isn't Orange County largely Republican?

About 50% and change voted Republican in the last election. It's been higher.

271 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:59:36pm

re: #259 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

And, the help of the Aes Sedai!

272 Bloodnok  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:59:37pm

re: #236 MandyManners

How many nswspapers carried that cartoon?

This Internet thingy has everything.

273 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 6:59:46pm

re: #267 darthstar

Okay...so if we look at the outrage over a mosque in New York then, could you still say we're the freest nation in the world in religious terms? Are the "prayer in school" advocates saying it's okay for Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and Jews to have equal representation during prayer time?

Talk to me when nations ruled by Sharia give full and free liberties to Christians, Jews and Buddhists.

274 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:00:05pm

re: #265 freetoken

It may be on youtube. Google showed a hit, but I did not follow up.

275 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:00:44pm

re: #263 MandyManners
Wrong response..... you're supposed to look at me with a blank stare and say ' I have no idea what you mean ' ....//

276 darthstar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:00:59pm

re: #273 MandyManners

Talk to me when nations ruled by Sharia give full and free liberties to Christians, Jews and Buddhists.

Therein lies the difference. You want to change the world. I just want us to be a part of it.

277 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:01:03pm

re: #273 MandyManners

Mandy ..... Didn't know your Mom was ill .... best wishes to your family.

278 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:01:21pm

re: #273 MandyManners

Talk to me when nations ruled by Sharia give full and free liberties to Christians, Jews and Buddhists.

And, Animists, Atheists and any other adherent to a faith other than Islam.

279 sagehen  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:01:28pm

re: #249 tradewind

Isn't Orange County largely Republican?

Deeply and truly.

They named their airport John Wayne.

280 Racer X  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:01:47pm

In Hong Kong, cars drive on the left while in the rest of China, they drive on the right. If you're building a bridge between the two, you've got to come up with a clever way to switch lanes without disruption or accident. Behold, the flipper:

Image: flipper-bridge.jpg

281 Kragar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:02:03pm

re: #271 Floral Giraffe

And, the help of the Aes Sedai!

Tar Valon witches!

282 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:02:41pm

re: #276 darthstar

Therein lies the difference. You want to change the world. I just want us to be a part of it.

we also wanted to "change the world" when hitler was running amok .... good thing you were not in charge.

283 darthstar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:03:08pm

re: #282 _RememberTonyC

we also wanted to "change the world" when hitler was running amok ... good thing you were not in charge.

Good morning, Godwin.

284 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:03:13pm

re: #233 MandyManners

Right now she's off of oxygen but, she still has the machine.

Thank you for asking, CC!

How're you and yours?

That's a hard thing. Those machines are not pleasant.
I hope she is able to get rid of it soon.
We are all well, going a little crazed with the 20 year old back home, but, no one ever guaranteed us peace and serenity, and we did have them on purpose.

285 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:04:10pm

re: #281 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

And, how is Kragaristan tonight?
I'm about 1/2 way through book 4.
Fear me as an Aes Sedai!

286 darthstar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:04:38pm

re: #278 MandyManners

And, Animists, Atheists and any other adherent to a faith other than Islam.

It'll all be better as soon as everyone accepts Jesus as their personal lord and savior.

287 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:04:57pm

re: #283 darthstar

Good morning, Godwin.

sorry but i don't get the joke ... but sometimes changing the world is exactly what is required. Reagan did it with some success too.

288 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:05:00pm

re: #232 freetoken
Harkin hasn't rejoined the mothership yet?

289 sagehen  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:06:03pm

re: #256 _RememberTonyC

perhaps that is true, but the right candidate from the GOP side matters a LOT. One of the reasons I like Mitt Romney is that he is not a slave to the religious right. he may never get the nomination because of it, but if the GOP wants to win in 2012, he gives them their best chance out of all the "players" I have seen so far. He was a popular GOP gov in a "deep blue" state, and while he is mildly tainted for having appeared before certain groups, he has largely avoided the real crazies on the right. He is a sober and sophisticated candidate who could win a general election, even though he may have trouble with some conservative voters in his own party. And BTW, his intellect is at least equal to Obama's and he has many more years of executive experience.

That would have been true if he'd stood by his Massachussetts record, but he didn't. He spent all those primary debates trying to run as far right as he possibly could, and it would be no trouble at all for any general election opponent to put together hours of video of him explaining why he renounces everything MA ever found acceptable about him.

290 darthstar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:06:24pm

re: #287 _RememberTonyC

sorry but i don't get the joke ... but sometimes changing the world is exactly what is required. Reagan did it with some success too.

Godwin's law.

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[3][2]


[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

291 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:06:25pm

re: #237 Aceofwhat?

That article was really cool. Thanks, KT.

It gets a little technical but it's very interesting stuff.

292 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:06:42pm

re: #239 MandyManners

Give your tads a hug from me.

;)

293 freetoken  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:06:58pm

re: #266 Rightwingconspirator

To be fair they put this out over the course of the century. I sorta compressed it a lot in my post. 90 years in a nine second read.

Okay, I'll try to find it somewhere and watch it, but if it is like most any other "science" show produced for American TV I probably won't like it.

90 years sounds way too quick.

Before AGW gets us we have to negotiate resource scarcities (fresh water, arable land, fossil fuel depletion), overfishing, and a host of other problems. Yes, AGW makes all of them worse, and in the end I do not doubt that it will "get us". Yet our immediate problems have to do with just getting along with each other and not blowing ourselves up.

294 darthstar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:06:58pm

re: #287 _RememberTonyC

sorry but i don't get the joke ... but sometimes changing the world is exactly what is required. Reagan did it with some success too.

Oh, and I forgot that Reagan defeated Hitler...god, he was a good Governor.

295 Kragar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:07:39pm

re: #285 Floral Giraffe

And, how is Kragaristan tonight?
I'm about 1/2 way through book 4.
Fear me as an Aes Sedai!

Damane! A Sul'dam will see you leashed!

296 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:08:07pm

re: #262 Rightwingconspirator

May I "devils advocate" a bit?
Also shows not in a long time. And the demographic shift is urban, that means more Democratic. Add immigration rhetoric and there goes the Latino vote.

Oh, true enough. Just that California is a bit more complicated than sometimes advertised.

297 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:08:22pm

re: #248 freetoken

Probably not. A better explanation is the Pacific Decadal Oscillation. If you look at the NCDC map of temperature anomalies (linked in the Featured Pages) you'll see a somewhat backward crescent shaped cool temperature region throughout the NE Pacific. This is thought to be characteristic of the PDO.

Wow. I've never heard of that. I've been here a little over ten years and have never seen spring weather like this before. The last one was probably shortly before I moved here.

298 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:08:35pm

WooHoo! Personal Best: shower in five minutes.

299 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:09:07pm

re: #289 sagehen

That would have been true if he'd stood by his Massachussetts record, but he didn't. He spent all those primary debates trying to run as far right as he possibly could, and it would be no trouble at all for any general election opponent to put together hours of video of him explaining why he renounces everything MA ever found acceptable about him.

sometimes people evolve in certain areas, but their core usually holds firm. he did the Obamacare thing on a local level and it is costing MA a fortune. he can distance himself from that former policy of his with good reasons. But I don't see him trying to do the really radical stuff like repealing Roe v Wade.

300 Kragar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:09:28pm

re: #285 Floral Giraffe

And, how is Kragaristan tonight?
I'm about 1/2 way through book 4.
Fear me as an Aes Sedai!

BTW, what did you think of Perrin's return to the Two Rivers?

301 darthstar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:09:55pm

re: #298 MandyManners

WooHoo! Personal Best: shower in five minutes.

Did you remember to wash behind your ears?

302 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:10:34pm

re: #293 freetoken
I'm sure it was dramatized a great deal. My quick description left out disease, mayhem...
The next show that came on kinda pissed me off. Nostrodamus and 9/11.
If these experts on this guy are so great were the hell were they the year previous to the attack?

Oh well waiting for Through The Wormhole.

303 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:11:32pm

re: #290 darthstar

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

My point was legit and it applies to nazis as well as other scourges of civilization. You did notice I mentioned Reagan being a major leader who "changed the world" as well. No nazis were vanquished between 1981-1989. But sometimes the world has to be changed and we can't just sit it out and be "part of it."

304 Racer X  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:11:34pm

re: #298 MandyManners

WooHoo! Personal Best: shower in five minutes.

In bed.

305 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:12:07pm

re: #267 darthstar

Okay...so if we look at the outrage over a mosque in New York then, could you still say we're the freest nation in the world in religious terms? Are the "prayer in school" advocates saying it's okay for Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and Jews to have equal representation during prayer time?

"Outrage" notwithstanding, the issue is what the government does and how the laws read. If the issue is the tolerance of the society, or a sub-set of the society, then the conversation is different.

In the US, the Constitution provides religious freedoms.

Hong Kong Basic Law provides for freedom of religion, an artifact of its former colonial status. China, who now rules Hong Kong as a Special Administrative Region has a horrible history of religious persecution which continues to this day.

306 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:12:44pm

re: #294 darthstar

Oh, and I forgot that Reagan defeated Hitler...god, he was a good Governor.

you're better than that .... i think.

307 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:13:01pm

re: #276 darthstar

Therein lies the difference. You want to change the world. I just want us to be a part of it.

Where do you get the idea that I want to change the world?

308 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:13:10pm

re: #300 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Shh. He's not there yet.
NO SPOILERS, you!

309 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:13:33pm

Evening all...how's it hanging?

310 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:13:44pm

re: #84 Charles

Gingrich is deliberately positioning himself as a traditional atavistic conservative, to counter the new libertarian contingent.

They're all squabbling over the bones of a dying movement.

No. I wish you were right, but no.

They're fighting over the fertile ground of nascent fascism.

311 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:14:28pm

re: #276 darthstar

Therein lies the difference. You want to change the world. I just want us to be a part of it.

Oh, if you mean I want the free nations of the world to fight back against those who would impose utter and complete control over us, then YES, I WANT TO CHANGE THE WORLD.

312 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:14:31pm

re: #267 darthstar

Okay...so if we look at the outrage over a mosque in New York then, could you still say we're the freest nation in the world in religious terms? Are the "prayer in school" advocates saying it's okay for Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and Jews to have equal representation during prayer time?

The outrage just says that we're allowed to freely express our angst about one another's religion.

313 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:14:59pm

re: #307 MandyManners

Where do you get the idea that I want to change the world?

some people are ready to stand and fight for a just cause. others look for any excuse to run and hide. I'll take a fighter if their cause is just.

314 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:15:02pm

re: #267 darthstar

International Religious Freedom Report 2007 China

315 freetoken  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:15:09pm

re: #297 Killgore Trout

Wow. I've never heard of that. I've been here a little over ten years and have never seen spring weather like this before. The last one was probably shortly before I moved here.

The Pacific decadal oscillation (PDO) is a pattern of Pacific climate variability that shifts phases on at least inter-decadal time scale, usually about 20 to 30 years.

Ocean temp anomalies in one of the PDO phases look something like this.

Weather can be highly anomalous, anywhere on Earth.

Other phenomenon making their presence known include the Arctic Oscillation and El Nino, which was very strong this past winter and spring.

316 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:15:18pm

re: #304 Racer X

In bed.

Forgetting to take the Legion of Doom costume off before hopping in the waterbed will do that for you/

317 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:15:20pm

re: #276 darthstar

Therein lies the difference. You want to change the world. I just want us to be a part of it.

Do you actually think that this nation is not faced with enemies who seek to destroy us?

318 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:15:49pm

re: #273 MandyManners

Talk to me when nations ruled by Sharia give full and free liberties to Christians, Jews and Buddhists.

We are not competing with them. We are in a completely different league.

How are we doing against, I dunno, Australia?

319 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:15:57pm

re: #313 _RememberTonyC

some people are ready to stand and fight for a just cause. others look for any excuse to run and hide. I'll take a fighter if their cause is just.

Some people fight just cause they don't have anything better to do.

320 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:16:49pm

re: #289 sagehen

That would have been true if he'd stood by his Massachussetts record, but he didn't. He spent all those primary debates trying to run as far right as he possibly could, and it would be no trouble at all for any general election opponent to put together hours of video of him explaining why he renounces everything MA ever found acceptable about him.

My MA friends hated him anyway.

321 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:16:53pm

re: #317 MandyManners

Do you actually think that this nation is not faced with enemies who seek to destroy us?

No I do believe we have enemies that seek to destroy us, but I don't like to talk about Steve King, Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Michelle Bachmann that way.

322 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:16:53pm

My head is about to fucking explode. Such willful ignorance hurts.

323 darthstar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:17:37pm

re: #303 _RememberTonyC

My point was legit and it applies to nazis as well as other scourges of civilization. You did notice I mentioned Reagan being a major leader who "changed the world" as well. No nazis were vanquished between 1981-1989. But sometimes the world has to be changed and we can't just sit it out and be "part of it."

Yeah...that was a dumb comment on my part (the Reagan defeating Hitler sarc). But your implication was that Muslim countries are, in effect, future Third Reichs... Nobody's arguing that Hitler should have been allowed to run undeterred...and I honestly don't think anyone here would (I know I wouldn't).

I still don't think converting the planet to Christianity is the answer, however. Changing the world could involve learning how to accept other people even though they're different. (I know, I know...Hamas needs to recognize Israel...god only knows when that'll happen) We're not going to solve the world's problems here...thankfully, that's not our responsibility. But we can discuss them...which I do enjoy.

Cheers.

324 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:17:53pm

re: #277 _RememberTonyC

Mandy ... Didn't know your Mom was ill ... best wishes to your family.

Thank you, Tony. I appreciate your wishes.

325 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:18:17pm

re: #319 PT Barnum

Some people fight just cause they don't have anything better to do.

true dat ... but some people choose only to fight when necessary. but then they're ready to get it on.

326 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:18:28pm

re: #267 darthstar

Sure look at the outrage. It's stupid.

But look at this too. A list of Mosques operating openly, safely right here in America.

327 sagehen  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:18:42pm

re: #299 _RememberTonyC

sometimes people evolve in certain areas, but their core usually holds firm. he did the Obamacare thing on a local level and it is costing MA a fortune. he can distance himself from that former policy of his with good reasons. But I don't see him trying to do the really radical stuff like repealing Roe v Wade.

Last election cycle, he said
Q: Would you welcome the overruling of Roe v. Wade by the Court?
A: Yes. I would like to see each state be able to make its own decision regarding abortion rather than have a one-size-fits-all blanket pronouncement by the Supreme Court.

328 darthstar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:18:57pm

re: #321 PT Barnum

No I do believe we have enemies that seek to destroy us, but I don't like to talk about Steve King, Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Michelle Bachmann that way.

ha! You beat me to it.

329 Racer X  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:18:57pm

re: #317 MandyManners

Do you actually think that this nation is not faced with enemies who seek to destroy us?

The only threat to peace and freedom is America. We are truly horrible, and the cause of all of the world's problems. If we were like Europe everything would be peachy-keen.

/and if I have my way we will transform America to be just like Europe.

330 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:19:00pm

re: #318 SanFranciscoZionist

We are not competing with them. We are in a completely different league.

How are we doing against, I dunno, Australia?

Or Israel...

331 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:19:01pm

re: #284 CapeCoddah

That's a hard thing. Those machines are not pleasant.
I hope she is able to get rid of it soon.
We are all well, going a little crazed with the 20 year old back home, but, no one ever guaranteed us peace and serenity, and we did have them on purpose.

LOL! Those crazy fruits of our loins!

332 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:19:17pm

re: #320 SanFranciscoZionist

My MA friends hated him anyway.

Actually, he would have been easily re-elected here. He was and is well liked here.

333 freetoken  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:19:22pm

The highly paid guys at BP have contagious foot-in-mouth disease:

BP 'small people' comment causes anger along Gulf of Mexico

The "small people" of the Gulf Coast have a humongous message for oil giant BP: They're tired of the company's big-time executives making insensitive comments.

On Wednesday, BP Chairman Carl-Henric Svanberg told reporters in Washington: "I hear comments sometimes that large oil companies are greedy companies or don't care, but that is not the case with BP. We care about the small people."

One of the many things this disaster is highlighting is how detached the people who run this world are from the "little" folk, eh?

334 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:19:37pm

re: #286 darthstar

It'll all be better as soon as everyone accepts Jesus as their personal lord and savior.

Where did I say that? JUST, WHERE?

335 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:20:56pm

re: #315 freetoken

Ocean temp anomalies in one of the PDO phases look something like this.

Weather can be highly anomalous, anywhere on Earth.

Other phenomenon making their presence known include the Arctic Oscillation and El Nino, which was very strong this past winter and spring.

How strange. I guess the meteorologists Haven't quite figured it out yet and are still using seasonal averages in their forcasts. I've notice that the weather forecasts are routinely off 10-15 degrees. Even looking at the forecast for next week I can pretty much tell that this pattern probably isn't going to break even though the reports say different.
I can't believe it's mid June I'm still wearing my winter coat and wool hat.

336 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:20:59pm

re: #287 _RememberTonyC

sorry but i don't get the joke ... but sometimes changing the world is exactly what is required. Reagan did it with some success too.

I miss him. I was a member of the CPUSA during much of his tenure but, he was one of the greatest presidents in the history of the United States of America.

337 darthstar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:21:03pm

re: #334 MandyManners

Where did I say that? JUST, WHERE?

I was just fucking with you Mandy...don't worry about it.

338 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:21:17pm

I ain't never gonna' catch up but, I'm gonna' try.

339 Racer X  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:21:53pm

I'm out. But I leave you all with this.


Neener Neener

Youtube Video
340 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:22:34pm

What is that like a Dominionist pyramid scheme? Hard to believe that it's 2010.

Newt Gingrich

341 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:22:35pm

re: #323 darthstar

Yeah...that was a dumb comment on my part (the Reagan defeating Hitler sarc). But your implication was that Muslim countries are, in effect, future Third Reichs... Nobody's arguing that Hitler should have been allowed to run undeterred...and I honestly don't think anyone here would (I know I wouldn't).

I still don't think converting the planet to Christianity is the answer, however. Changing the world could involve learning how to accept other people even though they're different. (I know, I know...Hamas needs to recognize Israel...god only knows when that'll happen) We're not going to solve the world's problems here...thankfully, that's not our responsibility. But we can discuss them...which I do enjoy.

Cheers.


good comment, thanks. but i don't want to convert anyone to any religion. and not all Muslims are evil in my opinion. In fact, the vast majority especially in the USA are just like everyone else. But if you look at the biggest dangers we face, many involve despotism both islamist and secular. But iran worries me more than russia or china because there does appear to be a religious element that is barbaric, backward, and very frightening.

342 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:22:42pm

re: #292 Killgore Trout

;)

Tell 'em Aunt Manyd sends her greetings!

343 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:22:55pm

I get tired of the constant whining from the religious right about there being a war on Christianity merely because they aren't allowed to impose their narrow minded superstitions on the rest of us.

344 Irenicum  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:23:28pm

Oligarhy!!!

OK, now that that's out of the way, how is everyone tonight?

345 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:23:38pm

re: #304 Racer X

In bed.

That would be rather difficult.

346 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:23:43pm

re: #330 Aceofwhat?

Or Israel...

Israel has a whole different set of issues, mostly involving conflicts over control between various groups within the Jewish population. Very different from what you find in the states.

347 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:24:15pm

re: #304 Racer X

Oh, you fucking deviated prevert.

*whackwhackwhack*

348 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:24:23pm

re: #341 _RememberTonyC

good comment, thanks. but i don't want to convert anyone to any religion. and not all Muslims are evil in my opinion. In fact, the vast majority especially in the USA are just like everyone else. But if you look at the biggest dangers we face, many involve despotism both islamist and secular. But iran worries me more than russia or china because there does appear to be a religious element that is barbaric, backward, and very frightening.

It's not only islamist, they just happen to have had the opportunity to show how awful theocracy can be. I have no doubt that given half a chance the dominionists would be trying to out do them.

349 sagehen  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:24:27pm

re: #333 freetoken

The highly paid guys at BP have contagious foot-in-mouth disease:

BP 'small people' comment causes anger along Gulf of Mexico

One of the many things this disaster is highlighting is how detached the people who run this world are from the "little" folk, eh?

The thing about small people? When you put tens of millions of them into a cohesive clump (oil is sticky, makes a fine binding agent) they're collectively very very large. Larger even than BP.

350 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:24:29pm

You know what's really cool?
I reached out for help today, to a friend's Mom, that I haven't seen or spoken to, or, to be honest, thought of, in 25 years.
She was so generous.
It was like I'd talked to her yesterday.
WOW.

351 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:24:30pm

re: #333 freetoken

The highly paid guys at BP have contagious foot-in-mouth disease:

BP 'small people' comment causes anger along Gulf of Mexico

One of the many things this disaster is highlighting is how detached the people who run this world are from the "little" folk, eh?

The real elitism rears its ugly head. Of course, the wingnuts won't notice or comprehend the true nature of that type of traditional elitism. In fact they embrace it and falsely identify themselves with that class even if they're in poverty.

352 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:24:32pm

re: #323 darthstar

I still don't think converting the planet to Christianity is the answer, however.

Quoted for emphasis. Conversion to Christianity is an individual decision, an individual relationship. As we note here frequently, it is not a magical injection of IQ-boosting braniac stem cells...what this little Dominionist slice of Christianity keeps forgetting is that we could convert the whole world and we'd still have a ton of problems...

353 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:24:38pm

Wow. Through The Wormhole is fantastic! Morgan Freeman is perfect for this.

354 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:24:47pm

re: #347 MandyManners

Oh, you fucking deviated prevert.

*whackwhackwhack*

More, please?

355 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:24:59pm

re: #333 freetoken

The highly paid guys at BP have contagious foot-in-mouth disease:

BP 'small people' comment causes anger along Gulf of Mexico

One of the many things this disaster is highlighting is how detached the people who run this world are from the "little" folk, eh?

It's pretty amazing how they keep doing this.

I think they're just used to screwing up on this level, in, I dunno, Africa somewhere. It's like they have no idea how to deal with an affluent, entitled, mad-as-hell country they trashed.

They need to have a steeper learning curve.

356 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:25:29pm

re: #327 sagehen

Last election cycle, he said
Q: Would you welcome the overruling of Roe v. Wade by the Court?
A: Yes. I would like to see each state be able to make its own decision regarding abortion rather than have a one-size-fits-all blanket pronouncement by the Supreme Court.


hardly a bible thumping statement. politically cautious for sure, but it is not one of his main pillars or priorities.

357 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:26:47pm

re: #336 MandyManners

I miss him. I was a member of the CPUSA during much of his tenure but, he was one of the greatest presidents in the history of the United States of America.

who deprogrammed you?

358 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:26:55pm

re: #354 Floral Giraffe

More, please?

Floral Giraffe: Mandy, Hurt Me, Please!
Mandy: No!

359 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:27:12pm

re: #309 PT Barnum

Evening all...how's it hanging?

On the wild side.


Youtube Video
360 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:28:09pm

re: #353 Rightwingconspirator

Wow. Through The Wormhole is fantastic! Morgan Freeman is perfect for this.

I watched it last week..it was excellent. Though the thought of this all being a computer simulation was a little disquieting to be honest.

361 Irenicum  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:29:11pm

re: #352 Aceofwhat?

I raised that very question last week on my FB page and got a great response. Here's my blog version of the question: What if the whole world were Christian, would it make a difference? One friend of mine made a great point that even Christians struggle with all of the same impulses that impact everyone, so it wouldn't necessarily have a discernible effect of the world if everyone were Christian.

362 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:29:12pm

re: #346 SanFranciscoZionist

Israel has a whole different set of issues, mostly involving conflicts over control between various groups within the Jewish population. Very different from what you find in the states.

Oh, i just meant that there is an incredible amount of religious tolerance in this one little loveable country surrounded by genocidal intolerant hacks.

363 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:29:33pm

re: #303 _RememberTonyC

No nazis were vanquished between 1981 and 1989.

.
Well, some stragglers...
[Link: jta.org...]

364 darthstar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:29:52pm

re: #353 Rightwingconspirator

Wow. Through The Wormhole is fantastic! Morgan Freeman is perfect for this.

Thanks for the reminder...Black Holes...glad I'm at least catching the second half.

365 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:30:30pm

re: #337 darthstar

I was just fucking with you Mandy...don't worry about it.

Well, kiss my ass.

366 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:30:48pm

re: #360 PT Barnum

This new one- A plan to listen for paired up orbiting black holes, by "listening" for the space time waves caused by the black holes waltzing about one another. These dances are in a bunch of other galaxies at their center. Making subatomic particles waver here in sync.
Whoa!

367 darthstar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:31:00pm

re: #365 MandyManners

Well, kiss my ass.

thankee.

368 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:31:07pm

re: #351 Gus 802

The real elitism rears its ugly head. Of course, the wingnuts won't notice or comprehend the true nature of that type of traditional elitism. In fact they embrace it and falsely identify themselves with that class even if they're in poverty.

que?

369 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:31:48pm

re: #346 SanFranciscoZionist

Israel has a whole different set of issues, mostly involving conflicts over control between various groups within the Jewish population. Very different from what you find in the states.

Oh, yes.

370 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:31:55pm

re: #363 tradewind

.
Well, some stragglers...
[Link: jta.org...]

yeah .... him and klaus barbie ... but Ronnie gets no credit for picking any of that low hanging fruit!

371 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:32:39pm

Well time to go..bye everybody

372 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:32:52pm

re: #354 Floral Giraffe

More, please?

Show me your ration card for pure grain alcohol.

373 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:32:54pm

re: #368 Aceofwhat?

que?

Estoy hablando de elitismo de clase.

374 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:33:22pm

re: #360 PT Barnum

I watched it last week..it was excellent. Though the thought of this all being a computer simulation was a little disquieting to be honest.

Shhh! I'm saving that philosophical gem for our resident gamer sometime-Windsagio!

375 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:33:38pm

re: #357 _RememberTonyC

who deprogrammed you?

I did.

376 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:34:04pm

Hey all! How has it been going the past couple of days?

377 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:34:08pm

g'night all ..... and tomorrow ..... GO CELTICS

378 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:34:14pm

re: #375 MandyManners

I did.

in bed

after the shower

379 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:34:41pm

re: #376 LudwigVanQuixote

Hey all! How has it been going the past couple of days?

don't ask

V E R Y expensive

380 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:34:56pm

re: #375 MandyManners

I did.

good on you ... and you'll never go back ... g'night Mandy

381 sagehen  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:35:04pm

re: #361 Irenicum

I raised that very question last week on my FB page and got a great response. Here's my blog version of the question: What if the whole world were Christian, would it make a difference? One friend of mine made a great point that even Christians struggle with all of the same impulses that impact everyone, so it wouldn't necessarily have a discernible effect of the world if everyone were Christian.

When Europe was all Christian, they fought decades-long wars over what particular kind of Christian were the "real" Christians.

382 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:35:06pm

re: #367 darthstar

thankee.

For what?

383 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:35:13pm

re: #379 sattv4u2

don't ask

V E R Y expensive

OK... I won't ask, but I would be curious... I hope that all is well with you.

384 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:35:14pm

re: #361 Irenicum

I raised that very question last week on my FB page and got a great response. Here's my blog version of the question: What if the whole world were Christian, would it make a difference? One friend of mine made a great point that even Christians struggle with all of the same impulses that impact everyone, so it wouldn't necessarily have a discernible effect of the world if everyone were Christian.

exactly.

385 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:36:01pm

re: #376 LudwigVanQuixote

Hi
Been hoping you would drop in tonight. Watching the next Through The Wormhole and blogging it.

386 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:36:15pm

re: #383 LudwigVanQuixote

OK... I won't ask, but I would be curious... I hope that all is well with you.

thanks , yeah ,, just griping about several big ticket items needed all at the same time for primary residence as well as vacation condo

387 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:36:18pm

re: #354 Floral Giraffe

More, please?

Crack smack whack... Ohhh... and a little twiddle...

388 freetoken  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:36:22pm

re: #355 SanFranciscoZionist

They need to have a steeper learning curve.

Who am I to say what they need... I'm just a small person.

389 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:36:45pm

re: #333 freetoken

The highly paid guys at BP have contagious foot-in-mouth disease:

BP 'small people' comment causes anger along Gulf of Mexico

One of the many things this disaster is highlighting is how detached the people who run this world are from the "little" folk, eh?

The guy is Swedish. Latching on a word like this is ridiculous. Go give a speech in Sweden and tell me how it works out.

390 Kragar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:36:49pm

If everyone were Christian, we would be fighting between the Catholics, Evangelicals, Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans, etc etc.

391 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:37:01pm

re: #385 Rightwingconspirator

Hi
Been hoping you would drop in tonight. Watching the next Through The Wormhole and blogging it.

Fabulous! Now if only we could create a stable negative energy density...

392 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:37:38pm

re: #390 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

If everyone were Christian, we would be fighting between the Catholics, Evangelicals, Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans, etc etc.

I see you've been to some of our softball tournaments!!

393 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:37:41pm

re: #362 Aceofwhat?

Oh, i just meant that there is an incredible amount of religious tolerance in this one little loveable country surrounded by genocidal intolerant hackers.

Just a slight tweak. "Hacks" should be "hackers" to describe those who hack off peoples' heads.

394 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:37:45pm

re: #389 Bagua

The guy is Swedish. Latching on a word like this is ridiculous. Go give a speech in Sweden and tell me how it works out.

Most Swedes speak better English than many Americans.

395 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:37:51pm

re: #351 Gus 802

The real elitism rears its ugly head. Of course, the wingnuts won't notice or comprehend the true nature of that type of traditional elitism. In fact they embrace it and falsely identify themselves with that class even if they're in poverty.

No, English is not his first language.

396 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:38:21pm

re: #395 Bagua

No, English is not his first language.

Que?

/

397 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:38:45pm

re: #355 SanFranciscoZionist

It's pretty amazing how they keep doing this.

I think they're just used to screwing up on this level, in, I dunno, Africa somewhere. It's like they have no idea how to deal with an affluent, entitled, mad-as-hell country they trashed.

They need to have a steeper learning curve.

Actually their record in Africa is abominable. Remember, that because of them, BOP, Nigeria has greater emissions than England because they find it cheaper to just burn the natural gas they uncover.

398 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:38:53pm

re: #373 Gus 802

Estoy hablando de elitismo de clase.

I got that far.

I thought that worrying about classes wasn't a right-ish sort of pursuit? That's where i got confused...

399 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:39:47pm

re: #372 MandyManners

Show me your ration card for pure grain alcohol.

Don't have one.
Hope all is as OK as it can be with you, right now.
*smooch*

400 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:39:50pm

re: #376 LudwigVanQuixote

Hey all! How has it been going the past couple of days?

I am ass-deep in laundry.

How are you?

401 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:40:09pm

re: #376 LudwigVanQuixote

Hey all! How has it been going the past couple of days?

business + vacation...hanging out at my dad's cabin in BFE, Ohio.

Hummingbirds will come right up next to you if the feeder is full and you keep still...but wow, do they ever fight.

you?

402 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:40:25pm

re: #387 LudwigVanQuixote

Crack smack whack... Ohhh... and a little twiddle...

Thank you, Sir.

403 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:40:48pm

re: #390 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

If everyone were Christian, we would be fighting between the Catholics, Evangelicals, Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans, etc etc.

Why do you say that?

404 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:40:54pm

re: #398 Aceofwhat?

I got that far.

I thought that worrying about classes wasn't a right-ish sort of pursuit? That's where i got confused...

OK. Don't really want to debate this.

405 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:41:06pm

re: #394 Cato the Elder

Most Swedes speak better English than many Americans.

Obviously not Carl-Henric Svanberg.

406 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:41:25pm

Back in a bit.

407 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:41:29pm

re: #394 Cato the Elder

How's it going, Cato?

408 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:41:43pm

re: #401 Aceofwhat?

you?

Yeah ,, he fights too! I'm sure you've been here for some!!

//

409 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:42:22pm

re: #393 MandyManners

Just a slight tweak. "Hacks" should be "hackers" to describe those who hack off peoples' heads.

i prefer to mock their incompetence at...well, pretty much everything related to running a successful country. they seem like the sort who don't take well to mocking;)

410 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:42:31pm

re: #405 Bagua

Obviously not Carl-Henric Svanberg.

Really? You think he said something he didn't mean, or mistranslated in his mind? Heh.

411 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:42:32pm

re: #391 LudwigVanQuixote

I described tonight's episode above #366. Paused on my DVR so I can skip the ads. TV was full of stuff today. "Earth 2100" on History Inter. Way over the top. AGW apocalypse. Now Morgan Freeman and some intergalactic physics. Nice way to get the mind off the days routines.

412 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:42:42pm

re: #404 Gus 802

OK. Don't really want to debate this.

no sweat. consider it dropped.

413 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:42:52pm

re: #388 freetoken

Who am I to say what they need... I'm just a small person.

Well... I was talking with my dad and saying this is one time when old style Soviet rule would have some efficacy.

Imagine thick Russian accent...

Step 1. Invite CEO and #2 man of BP to office of central committee.

Step 2. Make example of CEO (this usually involves pistol, unless Ivan is feeling creative)

Step 3. Look at #2 man and say "Congratulations, Mr. CEO, you have one week to fix spill."

414 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:43:30pm

re: #408 sattv4u2

you?

Yeah ,, he fights too! I'm sure you've been here for some!!

//

well done...

415 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:43:53pm

re: #400 MandyManners

I am ass-deep in laundry.

How are you?

re: #401 Aceofwhat?

business + vacation...hanging out at my dad's cabin in BFE, Ohio.

Hummingbirds will come right up next to you if the feeder is full and you keep still...but wow, do they ever fight.

you?

Fabulous thank you.

416 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:44:21pm

re: #321 PT Barnum
Yeah, because those you've named above are just waiting for the go signal from their foreign handlers, and then they hit the shopping malls and airports of America. Why, even now they are communicating with the more radical of their pastors, as they decide which military base offers the most bang for their buck.
/dripping/
Like any sane person, I detest the nut-jobs who act out in the name of Christianity , but this meme that ' fundy evangelicals are as dangerous to America as radical jihadists ' is just freaking stupid.

417 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:44:30pm

re: #408 sattv4u2

you?

Yeah ,, he fights too! I'm sure you've been here for some!!

//

Well good luck with your inventory issues :)

418 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:44:46pm

re: #410 Cato the Elder

Really? You think he said something he didn't mean, or mistranslated in his mind? Heh.

Obviously. It is not unusual for Americans, who as you note struggle with their own language, to mock Europeans for awkward English. Those Europeans often speak several languages.

419 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:44:49pm

re: #399 Floral Giraffe

Don't have one.
Hope all is as OK as it can be with you, right now.
*smooch*

Mandrake!

Youtube Video
420 lostlakehiker  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:44:52pm

Ahmadinejad and the project of setting the stage for the return of the Mahdi by making a total mess of the world strike me as yet more wrongheaded than this project of setting the stage for the return of Jesus by (conquering the earth? improving the standing of the church? what?---they leave it vague).

But if it does in their minds come down to literal dominion, the effort to exert such dominion will make a mess of the earth whether that is the explicit purpose of the dominionists or not. No one else is going to bend over and allow that.

Grand ambition is great so long as it's not an ambition to rule others and make of their ambitions nothing but an object of grief and loss. One can only hope that no true Christian will follow a movement that must either fail because it's mocked to oblivion, with loss of standing for Christianity, or fail because it gets far enough to go too far and then meets bloody and determined resistance.

Who appointed the Dominionists to have dominion over other Christians, just for starters? And what of the other people? Even from a Christian perspective, we are enjoined to love them and do them good. Not kill them because they won't see it our way.

421 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:45:02pm

re: #417 LudwigVanQuixote

Well good luck with your inventory issues :)

inventory!?!?

422 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:45:49pm

re: #409 Aceofwhat?

i prefer to mock their incompetence at...well, pretty much everything related to running a successful country. they seem like the sort who don't take well to mocking;)

Ummm. the ideology is global.

423 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:46:30pm

re: #413 LudwigVanQuixote

You have one week to make work cold Fusion nuclear electricity. Then we shoot you.

424 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:46:34pm

re: #416 tradewind

Yeah, because those you've named above are just waiting for the go signal from their foreign handlers, and then they hit the shopping malls and airports of America. Why, even now they are communicating with the more radical of their pastors, as they decide which military base offers the most bang for their buck.
/dripping/
Like any sane person, I detest the nut-jobs who act out in the name of Christianity , but this meme that ' fundy evangelicals are as dangerous to America as radical jihadists ' is just freaking stupid.

Yeah, it is. Because they're far more dangerous. I fully expect to see elements of fundy fascism in power in this country in my lifetime. Jihadists can blow shit up here, but it takes a Christian fundamentalist to rule.

425 lostlakehiker  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:46:37pm

re: #390 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

If everyone were Christian, we would be fighting between the Catholics, Evangelicals, Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans, etc etc.

Christians have been there and done that. It was called the thirty years war. And that was just the main course. There have been several side dishes of internecine warfare and oppression. It seems that "even" among Christians, there are sinners. And not just the penny-ante kind. Who knew?

426 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:46:39pm

re: #415 LudwigVanQuixote

Fabulous thank you.

Good to hear.

427 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:46:46pm

re: #421 sattv4u2

inventory!?!?

Orders, big ticket items... whatever it was, I mean good luck with it.

428 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:47:08pm

re: #418 Bagua

Obviously. It is not unusual for Americans, who as you note struggle with their own language, to mock Europeans for awkward English. Those Europeans often speak several languages.

So what was the word or phrase he was groping for? I think he said exactly what he meant.

429 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:47:49pm

re: #423 Bagua

You have one week to make work cold Fusion nuclear electricity. Then we shoot you.

I vote for a public flogging on his bare bottom.
But, that's just me.
The stocks would work too.

430 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:47:54pm

re: #416 tradewind

Yeah, because those you've named above are just waiting for the go signal from their foreign handlers, and then they hit the shopping malls and airports of America. Why, even now they are communicating with the more radical of their pastors, as they decide which military base offers the most bang for their buck.
/dripping/
Like any sane person, I detest the nut-jobs who act out in the name of Christianity , but this meme that ' fundy evangelicals are as dangerous to America as radical jihadists ' is just freaking stupid.

Yeah, this same insanity insists that McVeigh was a Christian.

431 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:48:11pm

re: #423 Bagua

You have one week to make work cold Fusion nuclear electricity. Then we shoot you.

Ahhh... but that is physically impossible... My plan involves plugging hole with BP execs :) The density of their skulls is sure to be sufficient.

432 darthstar  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:48:12pm

Catherine Deneuve

433 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:48:17pm

re: #422 MandyManners

Ummm. the ideology is global.

i was talking about Israel's neighbors.

434 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:48:36pm

re: #429 Floral Giraffe

I vote for a public flogging on his bare bottom.
But, that's just me.
The stocks would work too.

I vote for private use of stocks and flogging of your bare bottom ;)

435 Varek Raith  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:49:12pm

Sharia!
...
Wait...

436 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:49:26pm

re: #420 lostlakehiker

Ahmadinejad and the project of setting the stage for the return of the Mahdi by making a total mess of the world strike me as yet more wrongheaded than this project of setting the stage for the return of Jesus by (conquering the earth? improving the standing of the church? what?---they leave it vague).

But if it does in their minds come down to literal dominion, the effort to exert such dominion will make a mess of the earth whether that is the explicit purpose of the dominionists or not. No one else is going to bend over and allow that.

Grand ambition is great so long as it's not an ambition to rule others and make of their ambitions nothing but an object of grief and loss. One can only hope that no true Christian will follow a movement that must either fail because it's mocked to oblivion, with loss of standing for Christianity, or fail because it gets far enough to go too far and then meets bloody and determined resistance.

Who appointed the Dominionists to have dominion over other Christians, just for starters? And what of the other people? Even from a Christian perspective, we are enjoined to love them and do them good. Not kill them because they won't see it our way.

Satan.

437 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:50:02pm

re: #427 LudwigVanQuixote

Orders, big ticket items... whatever it was, I mean good luck with it.

K , thanks

and it's home repairs,, a few things for the primary residence,, , the vacation condo association just sent a letter stating a list of upgrades needed,, and a rental property needs some new things

438 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:50:09pm

re: #424 Cato the Elder

Yeah, it is. Because they're far more dangerous. I fully expect to see elements of fundy fascism in power in this country in my lifetime. Jihadists can blow shit up here, but it takes a Christian fundamentalist to rule.

Not now, they aren't. Danger is temporal, mind you.

439 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:51:05pm

re: #428 Cato the Elder

So what was the word or phrase he was groping for? I think he said exactly what he meant.

"individuals"??

as opposed to a large group of people?

(just a thought)

440 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:51:12pm

re: #428 Cato the Elder

So what was the word or phrase he was groping for? I think he said exactly what he meant.

"I hear comments sometimes that large oil companies are greedy companies or don't care, but that is not the case with BP. We care about the small people."

He means people who are not large oil companies. Politicians are always on about how they stand up for the "little guy", the poor, the workers, etc. One hears this rhetoric all the time. This guy is Swedish and thus the way he said it sounded funny.

441 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:51:23pm

re: #423 Bagua

You have one week to make work cold Fusion nuclear electricity. Then we shoot you.

Bagua - don't know if you saw it earlier - check your e-mail, please.

442 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:51:23pm

re: #432 darthstar

Catherine Deneuve

She still looks great.

443 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:51:47pm

re: #434 LudwigVanQuixote

Really, back in a bit.
Please, Sir.

444 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:52:10pm

re: #431 LudwigVanQuixote

Ahhh... but that is physically impossible... My plan involves plugging hole with BP execs :) The density of their skulls egos is sure to be sufficient.

FTFY

445 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:52:37pm

re: #431 LudwigVanQuixote

Ahhh... but that is physically impossible... My plan involves plugging hole with BP execs :) The density of their skulls is sure to be sufficient.

You have straightened me out again. That dense? I had somehow perceived them as cold hard vacuum.

446 Varek Raith  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:53:12pm

re: #445 Rightwingconspirator

You have straightened me out again. That dense? I had somehow perceived them as cold hard vacuum.

Nope, solid neutronium.

447 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:53:13pm

re: #431 LudwigVanQuixote

Ahhh... but that is physically impossible... My plan involves plugging hole with BP execs :) The density of their skulls is sure to be sufficient.

My point exactly. It is physically impossible to stop the leak in one weak. Wishing, hoping and threatening will not change the underlying physics involved.

448 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:53:47pm

re: #445 Rightwingconspirator

You have straightened me out again. That dense? I had somehow perceived them as cold hard vacuum.

I thought that too once, however, I realized that these masters of the univers have sufficient fat in their heads to cause small singularities.

449 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:54:08pm

re: #439 sattv4u2

"individuals"??

as opposed to a large group of people?

(just a thought)

The word for "individuals" in Swedish is "individer". Hardly likely that he'd mistranslated that as "small people". He said exactly what he meant to say. And this is how most CEOs see "ordinary people", by the way. It has nothing to do with native language and everything to do with privilege and wealth.

450 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:54:59pm

re: #433 Aceofwhat?

i was talking about Israel's neighbors.

Her neighbors have neighbors.

451 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:55:41pm

re: #450 MandyManners

Her neighbors have neighbors.

Do tell.

452 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:55:53pm

re: #447 Bagua

My point exactly. It is physically impossible to stop the leak in one weak. Wishing, hoping and threatening will not change the underlying physics involved.

Ahhh really? It may well have had a more reasoned set of plans of action, and it certainly would have motivated real responses. We are going to be hearing "new" reports of how bad this spill is and its effects for the next several years. We will live with those effects for decades, if not centuries.

453 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:56:13pm

Sigh...but no we aren't advocating for a theocratic government, nope not at all, we just want everyone to follow and believe in our specific version of Christianity and for the government to mandate that as the correct and only version of religion! That is in no way a theocracy, nope, not in the slightest, it is just "restoring" America as a "christian nation" the way it started out before the liberals screwed it up!

/ :(

454 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:56:41pm

re: #449 Cato the Elder

The word for "individuals" in Swedish is "individer". Hardly likely that he'd mistranslated that as "small people". He said exactly what he meant to say. And this is how most CEOs see "ordinary people", by the way. It has nothing to do with native language and everything to do with privilege and wealth.

Image: new_BP_boss_online.jpg

455 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:56:44pm

re: #449 Cato the Elder

The word for "individuals" in Swedish is "individer". Hardly likely that he'd mistranslated that as "small people". He said exactly what he meant to say. And this is how most CEOs see "ordinary people", by the way. It has nothing to do with native language and everything to do with privilege and wealth.

I like to fight for the little guy.

456 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:57:05pm

re: #452 LudwigVanQuixote

Ahhh really? It may well have had a more reasoned set of plans of action, and it certainly would have motivated real responses. We are going to be hearing "new" reports of how bad this spill is and its effects for the next several years. We will live with those effects for decades, if not centuries.

But...we must continue drilling in the Gulf, and even expand it, or people will lose JOBS!

457 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:57:40pm

re: #441 reine.de.tout

Bagua - don't know if you saw it earlier - check your e-mail, please.

Yes I just saw that, very much appreciated, the "missing centralizers" sound like a red herring indeed. The rest fills in some blacks for me. What I'm wondering is, who was responsible for using the gas enriched cement? I had thought this was BP choice.

458 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:57:54pm

re: #397 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually their record in Africa is abominable. Remember, that because of them, BOP, Nigeria has greater emissions than England because they find it cheaper to just burn the natural gas they uncover.

Ludwig, RWC found a show called "Earth 2100" you might what to see. It's on in about an hour on History International.

459 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:58:43pm

re: #457 Bagua

Yes I just saw that, very much appreciated, the "missing centralizers" sound like a red herring indeed. The rest fills in some blacks for me. What I'm wondering is, who was responsible for using the gas enriched cement? I had thought this was BP choice.

It was, as I understand it.

460 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 7:59:16pm

re: #456 Cato the Elder

But...we must continue drilling in the Gulf, and even expand it, or people will lose JOBS!

huh?

461 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:00:17pm

re: #452 LudwigVanQuixote

Ahhh really? It may well have had a more reasoned set of plans of action, and it certainly would have motivated real responses. We are going to be hearing "new" reports of how bad this spill is and its effects for the next several years. We will live with those effects for decades, if not centuries.

I agree the spill is bad. My point is, there is no one week fix no matter what the motivation or how badly anyone wants it.

462 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:00:50pm

re: #365 MandyManners
Some people just don't know where to draw the line when it comes to rule 5...
[Link: www.uwosh.edu...]

463 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:01:37pm

re: #462 tradewind

Some people just don't know where to draw the line when it comes to rule 5...
[Link: www.uwosh.edu...]

Communism!

464 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:01:49pm

re: #456 Cato the Elder

But...we must continue drilling in the Gulf, and even expand it, or people will lose JOBS!

Jobs that make up about 15% of one state's economy (mine), but hey, those people don't matter - they must be evil little shits if they're willing to work for a company that's raping the earth, eh?

465 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:01:55pm

re: #451 Aceofwhat?

Do tell.

Just look at a map.

466 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:02:00pm

And BTW I am furious at Obama for being so spineless in his speech last night. It is simply unconscionable that he did not mention the desperate need to get off of fossil fuels in a more comprehensive way and elaborate existing solutions that are currently technologically feasible.

The main reason to get off of fossil fuels is prevention of eco-collapse.

After that, we can talk preservation of our natural resources, economic benefits of not spending a billion dollars a day plus to other governments and security issues.

Our nation has this marvelous habit of hearing about something being seriously f'd up and dangerous for years. Then it blows up and after the fact, we run around and wonder how it happened. Before Katrina, people were complaining about the levees for years. Before the energy crisis, people were complaining about that fo years.. Enron anyone? People were complaining about the housing bubble for years.

Enough.

AGW is not one that we will be able to shrug off.

It is coming down the pike right now. We can pay a little now - and even turn a profit in the long run - or we can pay too little too late and point fingers as everything falls apart. This is not a joke. This is not a game, and the chuckleheads in DC have no desire to talk to the American people like they are adults.

467 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:02:51pm

re: #464 reine.de.tout

can I kiss you !?!?

468 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:03:06pm

re: #459 reine.de.tout

It was, as I understand it.

That is what I have heard as well. I don't see Haliburton being culpable here, nor Cameron. But it indeed looks like Haliburton is seeking a bit of cover with the "scrimping on the centralizers" argument as the Roi makes clear.

469 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:03:09pm

re: #463 Gus 802

Communism!

Amazing.

470 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:03:33pm

re: #467 sattv4u2

can I kiss you !?!?

You may.
In a nice, brotherly sort of way.

471 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:03:42pm

re: #469 MandyManners

Amazing.

It was a joke.

472 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:04:34pm

re: #465 MandyManners

Just look at a map.

Are we eventually going to end up in a place where you tell me something i don't know, or are we just flirting?

I'm good either way;)

473 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:04:47pm

re: #456 Cato the Elder

But...we must continue drilling in the Gulf, and even expand it, or people will lose JOBS!

Or we could build off sea wind farms instead of those rigs, have a real domestic energy source that would lower oil prices, fix the environment and create even more jobs....

What that really means is that folks like the BP execs and their paid politicians will have less mega bucks. And yes I am aware that there are quite a few folks who work the rigs. There would be more jobs created with offshore wind. Besides, since when have the execs or the GOP cared about the people who actually work those rigs anyway?

474 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:04:49pm

re: #464 reine.de.tout

The answer is, as is usually the case, somewhere in between :p

475 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:04:51pm

re: #468 Bagua

That is what I have heard as well. I don't see Haliburton being culpable here, nor Cameron. But it indeed looks like Haliburton is seeking a bit of cover with the "scrimping on the centralizers" argument as the Roi makes clear.

hehe.
Now I have to go back and re-read. The technical stuff sorta goes in one ear and out the other (or in one eye and out the other, since I was reading not listening).
LOL.

476 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:05:37pm

re: #456 Cato the Elder

But...we must continue drilling in the Gulf, and even expand it, or people will lose JOBS!

You are of course offering to people who actually have jobs.

477 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:05:43pm

re: #458 Dark_Falcon

Never mind, RWC already let you know. I'm still catching up, I spent most of the evening in interview prep. The task they gave me took longer than I thought it would.

478 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:06:00pm

Image: 0_21_450_beck_progressive.jpg

479 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:06:41pm

re: #471 Gus 802

It was a joke.

Yeah.

480 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:07:10pm

re: #476 Bagua

You are of course offering to people who actually have jobs.

So did people who worked in buggy whip factories when the auto came out. If you take a left wing enviro view, oil has got to go - or if you take a pure capitalist point of view, oil has got to go. It is only because we do not have an unfettered free market that superior technologies have not replaced it.

481 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:07:12pm

re: #478 Gus 802

Image: 0_21_450_beck_progressive.jpg

Exactly.

482 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:07:23pm

re: #476 Bagua

You are of course offering referring to people who actually have jobs.

483 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:07:24pm

re: #474 windsagio

The answer is, as is usually the case, somewhere in between :p

The "in-between" is that the BP execs will have their jobs - BP is "Beyond Petroleum" you know, and has their hand in many energy enterprises. Oil is most profitable right now, I would think.

It's the evil little shits in the Gulf States who were willing to work for BP who won't be working. As it should be, I'm sure.

484 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:07:28pm

re: #481 Stanley Sea

Exactly.

Image: TMW2009-09-30colorlowres.jpg

485 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:07:31pm

re: #472 Aceofwhat?

Are we eventually going to end up in a place where you tell me something i don't know, or are we just flirting?

I'm good either way;)

*lifts skirt"

486 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:08:05pm

re: #470 reine.de.tout

You may.
In a nice, brotherly sort of way.

done (and only because I couldn't give more than on upding)

487 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:08:06pm

re: #485 MandyManners

*lifts skirt"

Are you getting kinky Mandy?

488 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:08:24pm

re: #485 MandyManners

*lifts skirt"

*TO SHOW A FUCKING ANKLE, YOU DEVIATED PREVERTS*

489 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:08:27pm

re: #478 Gus 802

Image: 0_21_450_beck_progressive.jpg

We all know Beck is a nut, but it is true that Alinsky heavily influenced the development of the left.

490 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:08:30pm

re: #480 LudwigVanQuixote

So did people who worked in buggy whip factories when the auto came out. If you take a left wing enviro view, oil has got to go - or if you take a pure capitalist point of view, oil has got to go. It is only because we do not have an unfettered free market that superior technologies have not replaced it.

You do realise that the net result is not a global reduction of jobs or oil productions don't you?

491 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:08:32pm

re: #470 reine.de.tout

You may.
In a nice, brotherly sort of way.

*burn!*

492 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:09:10pm

re: #489 Dark_Falcon

We all know Beck is a nut, but it is true that Alinsky heavily influenced the development of the left.

Image: TMW2010-04-28.jpg

493 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:09:45pm

re: #456 Cato the Elder

But...we must continue drilling in the Gulf, and even expand it, or people will lose JOBS!

Yeah, right. People who have JOBS in the coal mines or in the oil and gas fields are immoral assholes. They should all quit and feed their families by working at a burger joint serving crud to kids or by sucking the public tit instead.

494 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:09:50pm

re: #473 LudwigVanQuixote

Or we could build off sea wind farms instead of those rigs, have a real domestic energy source that would lower oil prices, fix the environment and create even more jobs...

What that really means is that folks like the BP execs and their paid politicians will have less mega bucks. And yes I am aware that there are quite a few folks who work the rigs. There would be more jobs created with offshore wind. Besides, since when have the execs or the GOP cared about the people who actually work those rigs anyway?

Easy, Monsieur Blanket. IIRC, a Democrat put them all out of work. This doesn't need to get partisan, especially if you're sporting a blunderbuss...

495 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:09:58pm

re: #487 LudwigVanQuixote

Are you getting kinky Mandy?

Oh, goodness, Ludwig. My No. 488,...

496 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:10:14pm

re: #471 Gus 802

It was a joke.

It was hilarious.

497 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:10:25pm

re: #490 Bagua

You do realise that the net result is not a global reduction of jobs or oil productions don't you?

The rigs are now going to Brazil, Africa, China.
There will be drilling.
And the US will be buying more of its oil from foreign sources, until alternatives are up and running.

But the evil little shits working for BP won't be OUR evil little shits, they'll be someone else's. Makes it all OK.

498 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:10:28pm

re: #490 Bagua

You do realise that the net result is not a global reduction of jobs or oil productions don't you?

No because every actual analysis of it I have seen shows an increase in GDP and jobs. Denmark alone created 200,000 jobs through their wind industry. 200,000 jobs created would be huge even in America, but that is Denmark. For America is would be more like 2,000,000 jobs from wind farms and smart grid.

499 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:10:29pm

re: #480 LudwigVanQuixote

So did people who worked in buggy whip factories when the auto came out. If you take a left wing enviro view, oil has got to go - or if you take a pure capitalist point of view, oil has got to go. It is only because we do not have an unfettered free market that superior technologies have not replaced it.

I hate it when people bring up the "buggy whip" industry.

There was never such a thing as a "buggy whip" industry. Manufacturing was not so specialized 100 years ago. Factories did not make exclusively "buggy whips" but also made a variety of other leather goods.

500 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:10:50pm

re: #488 MandyManners

*TO SHOW A FUCKING ANKLE, YOU DEVIATED PREVERTS*

Sorry, Mandy, its just that that gesture is sometimes lewd nowadays.

501 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:11:08pm

re: #495 MandyManners

Oh, goodness, Ludwig. My No. 488,...

pity... ;)

502 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:11:30pm

re: #493 Spare O'Lake

Yeah, right. People who have JOBS in the coal mines or in the oil and gas fields are immoral assholes. They should all quit and feed their families by working at a burger joint serving crud to kids or by sucking the public tit instead.

Yeah, fuck then. They're utter, white trash.

503 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:11:36pm

re: #424 Cato the Elder

I fully expect to see elements of fundy fascism in power in this country in my lifetime

.
Sending a roll of heavy duty tinfoil your way. Don't waste it./
After watching 'The Jetsons ' in my childhood , I fully expected that we'd all be using hovercraft and personal propulsion devices instead of autos , but sadly.....

504 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:11:42pm

re: #488 MandyManners

*TO SHOW A FUCKING ANKLE, YOU DEVIATED PREVERTS*

I'm partial to women's calves, myself, but i won't turn down a free ankle...

505 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:12:06pm

re: #492 Gus 802

Image: TMW2010-04-28.jpg

Great stuff, thanks!

506 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:12:07pm

re: #499 Alouette

I hate it when people bring up the "buggy whip" industry.

There was never such a thing as a "buggy whip" industry. Manufacturing was not so specialized 100 years ago. Factories did not make exclusively "buggy whips" but also made a variety of other leather goods.

Fine, then the carriage industry. Your point is taken, however, please don't let your correction detract from the correct point I am making.

507 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:12:32pm

re: #497 reine.de.tout

I'm more thinking that its substantially less likely we'll have another blowout, really.

508 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:12:48pm

re: #489 Dark_Falcon

We all know Beck is a nut, but it is true that Alinsky heavily influenced the development of the left.

I've considered myself a lefty since 1962. Perhaps my socialist education was lacking, but I rarely heard of Alinsky until the last few years. That was mostly from anti-leftists on the intertubes. He seems at most to be a tactician of one stream of leftism. (Not mine.)

509 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:13:29pm

re: #499 Alouette

Actually, things were pretty much specialized by that point, if not to the point of buggy whips. Shall we change it to 'the artisans that made coaches'?

510 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:13:31pm

re: #499 Alouette

I hate it when people bring up the "buggy whip" industry.

There was never such a thing as a "buggy whip" industry. Manufacturing was not so specialized 100 years ago. Factories did not make exclusively "buggy whips" but also made a variety of other leather goods.

Stable boys and city horse poo sweepers had to find other work as well.

511 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:13:52pm

re: #496 Aceofwhat?

It was hilarious.

So true. I especially found the part of comparing Darthstar's comment to something being out of the Alinsky playbook to be particularly hilarious.

512 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:13:56pm

re: #508 Decatur Deb

I've considered myself a lefty since 1962. Perhaps my socialist education was lacking, but I rarely heard of Alinsky until the last few years. That was mostly from anti-leftists on the intertubes. He seems at most to be a tactician of one stream of leftism. (Not mine.)

Ditto. The fearful rightwing brought Alinsky back to the fore.

513 OldnGrumpy  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:14:11pm

re: #503 tradewind

.
Sending a roll of heavy duty tinfoil your way. Don't waste it./
After watching 'The Jetsons ' in my childhood , I fully expected that we'd all be using hovercraft and personal propulsion devices instead of autos , but sadly...

[Link: zapatopi.net...]

514 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:14:47pm

re: #498 LudwigVanQuixote

No because every actual analysis of it I have seen shows an increase in GDP and jobs. Denmark alone created 200,000 jobs through their wind industry. 200,000 jobs created would be huge even in America, but that is Denmark. For America is would be more like 2,000,000 jobs from wind farms and smart grid.

You are missing my point Ludwig, I'm not talking about wind farms. The suspension of drilling in the GOM does not reduce the drilling or use of oil and gas. The identical rigs are moving to Brazil and elsewhere where they will drill for oil and gas. The loss of oil worker jobs in the GOM does not reduce the number of people working to support those rigs, the jobs will now be in Brazil and elsewhere.

From a global perspective, there is no net reduction in oil industry jobs or the amount of oil consumed. The only difference is who gets paid to do the work and which country receives the tax royalties and fees.

515 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:15:08pm

re: #483 reine.de.tout
I think we should start a pool to guess how long this ' six month ' moratorium is going to stand. I hope it's gone in weeks.
I get that Obama's gotten some bad info from the Chicago bunch re this idea, but surely he'll come to his senses. If nothing else, Carville is going to let him have it daily until he does.

516 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:15:25pm

re: #500 Dark_Falcon

Sorry, Mandy, its just that that gesture is sometimes lewd nowadays.

You lilke to think that you're immune to the stuff.

Youtube Video
517 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:15:48pm

re: #480 LudwigVanQuixote

So did people who worked in buggy whip factories when the auto came out. If you take a left wing enviro view, oil has got to go - or if you take a pure capitalist point of view, oil has got to go. It is only because we do not have an unfettered free market that superior technologies have not replaced it.

You can be correct without endorsing an abrupt upheaval that reduces local employment without a corresponding reduction in demand or attempt to transition said displaced people.

Speaking of them as "oh well" employment casualties is no more flattering than the dismissive remarks made by the aforementioned Swedish executive. These are real people.

First we build the nuke and solar and wind power. Then we transition the labor. We don't just lay them off.

I'm talking to you too, Cato...

518 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:16:23pm

re: #510 LudwigVanQuixote

Stable boys and city horse poo sweepers had to find other work as well.

True, but the displacement here would be far more massive. Any displacement of that side creates intense fear.

519 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:17:10pm

re: #464 reine.de.tout

Jobs that make up about 15% of one state's economy (mine), but hey, those people don't matter - they must be evil little shits if they're willing to work for a company that's raping the earth, eh?

You really must persist in putting words in my mouth and thoughts in my head about this, eh?

I am addressing the insane folly of believing that we must continue to do the things that are killing your state to avoid of short- to medium-term dislocations in the job market.

For decades now, "conservatives" have taught us that no job is for life and we all can expect to do multiple things in our lives. How is this any different? People cheered here when it looked like GM might go out of business, and no tears were shed for those high-paying union jobs that actually went belly-up. Those goddamned blood-sucking union bastards would have to just deal with it, right?

I myself lost an $80k job over two years ago, and I will presumably never make that kind of money again. No one wept for me.

I don't wish harm on anyone, but what is so special about oil-rig jobs?

520 OldnGrumpy  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:17:11pm

re: #516 MandyManners

You lilke to think that you're immune to the stuff.


[Video]

Wow haven't seen RP and the zombie women since MTV still showed videos

521 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:17:24pm

re: #506 LudwigVanQuixote

Fine, then the carriage industry. Your point is taken, however, please don't let your correction detract from the correct point I am making.

The horse-drawn vehicle industry was not on the same scale of mass production as what became the automobile industry. Recall it was Henry Ford who introduced the assembly line for mass production of vehicles.

The steam engine at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution caused a far greater upheaval than the introduction of the automobile.

522 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:17:34pm

re: #512 Stanley Sea

::::

Me either, strange eh?

523 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:17:54pm

re: #507 windsagio

I'm more thinking that its substantially less likely we'll have another blowout, really.

Oh, for certain we won't, there will be no drilling here.

524 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:18:07pm

re: #512 Stanley Sea
And there you go again. It's the default position, that mockery thing.

525 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:18:13pm

re: #510 LudwigVanQuixote

Stable boys and city horse poo sweepers had to find other work as well.

Where do you think messengers have their origins?

526 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:18:18pm

re: #508 Decatur Deb

I've considered myself a lefty since 1962. Perhaps my socialist education was lacking, but I rarely heard of Alinsky until the last few years. That was mostly from anti-leftists on the intertubes. He seems at most to be a tactician of one stream of leftism. (Not mine.)

That's ok. I've never heard of the dude in the video that Charles posted, nor do i know any Dominionists, and i've been a Christian for about 25 years now.

Doesn't mean they don't both represent something that I'm proud to oppose...

527 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:18:39pm

re: #514 Bagua

If the US did like Denmark and had 21% of its national power comingre: #517 Aceofwhat?

from wind, it would for certain impact the oil markets. We consume 20% of the world's oil.

And I am not speaking of them as oh well employment casualties. I am speaking in terms of market capitalism. You can't get all free market on me and then hate the consequences. If on the other hand, you feel that the government should protect their jobs, then the Government needs to look at the millions of other Americans needs as well.

528 McSpiff  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:18:49pm

Has any other company publicly come out and said "Here's how our drilling and incident response plan is different from BP's and why we should be allowed to continue safely drilling in the Gulf. We're different, and we have the documentation to prove it."

If they haven't, don't you wonder why?

529 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:18:51pm

re: #510 LudwigVanQuixote

Stable boys and city horse poo sweepers had to find other work as well.

They were elected to Congress.

530 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:18:55pm

re: #515 tradewind

I think we should start a pool to guess how long this ' six month ' moratorium is going to stand. I hope it's gone in weeks.
I get that Obama's gotten some bad info from the Chicago bunch re this idea, but surely he'll come to his senses. If nothing else, Carville is going to let him have it daily until he does.

It won't matter, six months already equals six years. Several rigs were standing by to see if this moratorium would continue, now that it is sure they will be all weighing anchor.

The winner is Brazil, they wanted to build 20 news rigs which would have taken billions and years, now the rigs are theirs for the taking.

531 prairiefire  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:19:00pm

re: #522 windsagio

:::

Me either, strange eh?

No Alinsky, here. Lots of Eleanor Roosevelt and Harry Truman.

532 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:19:03pm

re: #524 tradewind

And there you go again. It's the default position, that mockery thing.

Mockery? Better than hate.

533 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:19:13pm

re: #523 reine.de.tout

Which is easy for me to be okay with, because my economy isn't based on drilling.

It is frustrating that the wrong is done by the oil companies, but its the workers that have to take the brunt of the punishment.

Its also, unfortunately, nearly inevitable.

534 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:19:35pm

re: #524 tradewind

Wait, what?

535 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:20:18pm

re: #531 prairiefire

I'm still not entirely clear on who he is except as an internet boogyman, I should probably go to wiki and educate myself.

536 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:20:21pm

re: #534 windsagio

Wait, what?

Alinsky #3 or something.

537 MandyManners  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:20:51pm

You know what i need, Nan? A good, hard fuck. But, you know i'm celibate. SO, what to do?

538 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:21:13pm

re: #510 LudwigVanQuixote

Stable boys and city horse poo sweepers had to find other work as well.

Here's the difference

The "buggy whip" industry wasn't told to shut down by the gov't because there was a carriage/ horse accident. It naturally matriculated away from horse drawn carriages (and the accessories) in a timely manner and those that did work in that industry had time to see the writing on the wall and either move west (where they could still find work) or move on to another industry

539 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:21:21pm

re: #508 Decatur Deb

I've considered myself a lefty since 1962. Perhaps my socialist education was lacking, but I rarely heard of Alinsky until the last few years. That was mostly from anti-leftists on the intertubes. He seems at most to be a tactician of one stream of leftism. (Not mine.)

I never heard of Alinsky until 2008. Otherwise, Alinskly only describes typical human behavior as it is applied in politics and is applicable regardless of ideology although his focus was to provide a framework for the left. Niccolò Machiavelli had him beat by at least 500 years.

540 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:21:22pm

re: #535 windsagio

I'm still not entirely clear on who he is except as an internet boogyman, I should probably go to wiki and educate myself.

Roger Ebert has a great post about him

[Link: blogs.suntimes.com...]

541 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:21:55pm

re: #519 Cato the Elder

Nothing, Cato. There is nothing special about a certain region's economic lifeblood. Nothing at all./

542 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:22:01pm

re: #533 windsagio

The point is it did not need to happen. The moratorium helps nothing. Running the rigs correctly and more tightly regulated and inspected was the answer, but they got it wrong. So wrong as to spread the economic damages here into success for Brazil. Talk about exporting jobs and off-shoring!

543 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:22:55pm

re: #526 Aceofwhat?

That's ok. I've never heard of the dude in the video that Charles posted, nor do i know any Dominionists, and i've been a Christian for about 25 years now.

Doesn't mean they don't both represent something that I'm proud to oppose...

You can like him or oppose him, but his importance is recent and not central to the left that I grew up with. John Dos Passos, Franz Fanon and Andre Malreaux were just more important.

544 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:24:25pm

re: #537 MandyManners

You know what i need, Nan? A good, hard fuck. But, you know i'm celibate. SO, what to do?

That was rather frank of you, Mandy. That said, I hope you meet a man worthy of giving you satisfaction.

545 prairiefire  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:24:30pm

Well, I think 20 billion from BP is a good start. Night, lizards.

546 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:24:32pm

re: #542 Rightwingconspirator

I think it did need to happen, for political reasons if nothing else.

Beyond that, it is a cost to the companies involved, and its a cost they need to pay. It just really really sucks that the workers pay so much more.

547 Mocking Jay  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:24:38pm

Thank God no one's discovered cold fusion yet. That would totally destroy us...

548 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:24:55pm

re: #527 LudwigVanQuixote

If the US did like Denmark and had 21% of its national power comingre: #517 Aceofwhat?

from wind, it would for certain impact the oil markets. We consume 20% of the world's oil.

And I am not speaking of them as oh well employment casualties. I am speaking in terms of market capitalism. You can't get all free market on me and then hate the consequences. If on the other hand, you feel that the government should protect their jobs, then the Government needs to look at the millions of other Americans needs as well.

But we won't. There are no such plans. Furthermore, you are not counting all the oil, gas and coal that is necessary to build and maintain those imaginary subsidy Wind Farms. Nor the fact that conventional plants would need to back them up to avoid destabilising the grid.

What will happen is there will be no 20% reduction in the use of Oil, (and the Subsidy Wind Farms do not replace electricity generated by oil, they replace electricity generated by coal and natural gas, both of which are abundant.

I'd love to see a 20% reduction in US oil consumption and would support any practical way of achieving this. But let's not delude ourselves into thinking the GOM moratorium will have any measurable result in reducing oil consumption. It won't.

549 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:24:58pm

re: #537 MandyManners

You know what i need, Nan? A good, hard fuck. But, you know i'm celibate. SO, what to do?

Technology is woman's best friend as well :)

550 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:25:39pm

re: #548 Bagua

Stop. Denmark turns a profit on their wind farms. Look it up before writing vitriol.

551 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:26:05pm

I posted this link earlier, and it's a featured link, but for those who missed it check this out. Bad bedfellows.

In this piece from Dutch News we find the alleged sources of US funding for Geert Wilders's Partij voor de Vrijheid (Party For Freedom). Of particular note are David Horowitz, Daniel Pipes, Jim DeMint, Liz Cheney and, of course Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

552 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:26:15pm

re: #519 Cato the Elder

You really must persist in putting words in my mouth and thoughts in my head about this, eh?

I am addressing the insane folly of believing that we must continue to do the things that are killing your state to avoid of short- to medium-term dislocations in the job market.

For decades now, "conservatives" have taught us that no job is for life and we all can expect to do multiple things in our lives. How is this any different? People cheered here when it looked like GM might go out of business, and no tears were shed for those high-paying union jobs that actually went belly-up. Those goddamned blood-sucking union bastards would have to just deal with it, right?

I myself lost an $80k job over two years ago, and I will presumably never make that kind of money again. No one wept for me.

I don't wish harm on anyone, but what is so special about oil-rig jobs?

Shallow-water drilling is killing her state? Really?

This is different because this isn't 30 years of accumulated economic writing on the wall. This isn't a loom operator who probably ought to have been keeping an eye on Monster.com lo these many decades - this is ignorance masquerading as prudence. If moving a hundred rigs to someone else's coast and then buying the same damn oil makes you feel right, then have at it.

My conscience is a little harder to clear, and i don't like putting thousands either out of work or in some dodgy 3rd-world country in a lame attempt to purchase an old-timey medieval indulgence for my tortured soul.

553 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:26:16pm

re: #539 Gus 802

I never heard of Alinsky until 2008. Otherwise, Alinskly only describes typical human behavior as it is applied in politics and is applicable regardless of ideology although his focus was to provide a framework for the left. Niccolò Machiavelli had him beat by at least 500 years.

I think Karl Rove paid a lot more attention (to both) than most lefties.

554 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:27:03pm

re: #537 MandyManners

Ohhhhkayyyyy, Mandy, you may have met your wine quota waiting for that load to dry!

555 What, me worry?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:27:06pm

re: #524 tradewind

And there you go again. It's the default position, that mockery thing.

Hey, don't mock mockery. It's not a bad tool.

I've always been a big fan of Mel Brooks for this very reason. He makes a mockery out of evil. In this interview with Mike Wallace, he talks about anti-Semitism and why he concentrated on Hitler in his movies.

"You have to bring [Hitler] down with ridicule, because if you stand on a soapbox and you match him with rhetoric, you're just as bad as he is, but if you can make people laugh at him, then you're one up on him," he tells Wallace. "It's been one of my lifelong jobs - to make the world laugh at Adolf Hitler," says Brooks.

(And for the record, I never heard of Alinsky until Obama ran for Prez.)

556 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:27:14pm

re: #550 LudwigVanQuixote

Stop. Denmark turns a profit on their wind farms. Look it up before writing vitriol.

and know that they cover an area about the size of Rhode Island. The infrastructure needed to do the same here in the states is cost prohibitive.

557 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:27:18pm

Stop putting Afghan poppy-farmers out of business! It's their life's blood!

558 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:27:40pm

re: #550 LudwigVanQuixote

Stop. Denmark turns a profit on their wind farms. Look it up before writing vitriol.

We are not talking about wind farms in Denmark Ludwig, we are talking about the drilling moratorium in the gulf which will not reduce oil production or consumption.

559 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:28:23pm

re: #527 LudwigVanQuixote

If the US did like Denmark and had 21% of its national power comingre: #517 Aceofwhat?

from wind, it would for certain impact the oil markets. We consume 20% of the world's oil.

And I am not speaking of them as oh well employment casualties. I am speaking in terms of market capitalism. You can't get all free market on me and then hate the consequences. If on the other hand, you feel that the government should protect their jobs, then the Government needs to look at the millions of other Americans needs as well.

Surely you can't be so daft as to think an abrupt governmental ban on a heretofore widespread practice is a consequence of the free market?

Seriously, i've heard DrCordell say more relevant things about Palestine.

Take a mulligan. It's on me.

560 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:28:26pm

re: #556 sattv4u2

and know that they cover an area about the size of Rhode Island. The infrastructure needed to do the same here in the states is cost prohibitive.

No it is not. You too could actually read the links on it I have provided in the past. But since you never read any actual science, why start now?

561 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:29:03pm

re: #557 Cato the Elder

Stop putting Afghan poppy-farmers out of business! It's their life's blood!

Those poppy-farmers could be making a good living if they used the poppy opium which could be used to make morphine at a lower cost. However, that would infringe on big pharma's corner on the market.

562 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:29:14pm

re: #559 Aceofwhat?

Surely you can't be so daft as to think an abrupt governmental ban on a heretofore widespread practice is a consequence of the free market?

Seriously, i've heard DrCordell say more relevant things about Palestine.

Take a mulligan. It's on me.

No I think that we use a lot of oil. I think that rather than trying to drill more, we should use those funds to build wind and smart grids and then as we turn profits from them phase out oil all together.

563 What, me worry?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:29:20pm

re: #549 LudwigVanQuixote

Technology is woman's best friend as well :)

Better living through science!

564 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:29:21pm

re: #519 Cato the Elder

You really must persist in putting words in my mouth and thoughts in my head about this, eh?

I am addressing the insane folly of believing that we must continue to do the things that are killing your state to avoid of short- to medium-term dislocations in the job market.

For decades now, "conservatives" have taught us that no job is for life and we all can expect to do multiple things in our lives. How is this any different? People cheered here when it looked like GM might go out of business, and no tears were shed for those high-paying union jobs that actually went belly-up. Those goddamned blood-sucking union bastards would have to just deal with it, right?

I myself lost an $80k job over two years ago, and I will presumably never make that kind of money again. No one wept for me.

I don't wish harm on anyone, but what is so special about oil-rig jobs?

I haven't cheered about anybody's job loss, including yours, was very happy for you a few times when you found a job here and there.

People being "evil" little shits who work for a company like BP were your words. You may not have meant them the way they sounded, but they were your words.

There are situation where one industry is phased out as a new industry develops.

That is not what has happened here. The government has declared that a particular industry that employs thousands of people, that existed yesterday, does not exist today. There is nothing yet available to replace it.

Local news here - one of the local officials asked the President during his visit - how are the people in my parish going to find work? How will they live?

His response to her: Unemployment!

WTF?

That isn't the answer, people don't want to live on "unemployment", they want to work. Surely you know that.

These aren't people in a highly populated area. Many of these communities have continued to exist because they serve the oil industry in the area, which in turn serves the rest of the country. Now the rest of the country is telling them, to hell with you! You little small person, you are unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

I don't think these people are unimportant. They are not unimportant.

They aren't growing poppies for drugs. Efforts in Afghanistan along those lines include providing alternate crops. Not just stripping people completely. But hey, it's OK, just fine and fucking dandy to strip these small people.

565 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:29:54pm

re: #546 windsagio

I think it did need to happen, for political reasons if nothing else.

Beyond that, it is a cost to the companies involved, and its a cost they need to pay. It just really really sucks that the workers pay so much more.

11 dead men, scores of injured, and an ecolgical nightmare and you think it HAD to happen to advance a political agenda?
That is not right. Not right at all. That is despicable.

566 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:30:04pm

re: #560 LudwigVanQuixote

No it is not. You too could actually read the links on it I have provided in the past. But since you never read any actual science, why start now?

Bull AND shit

I read your hand selected links as well as others

567 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:30:41pm

re: #564 reine.de.tout

People being "evil" little shits who work for a company like BP were your words. You may not have meant them the way they sounded, but they were your words.

Please link, because I do believe you're misquoting me.

568 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:31:04pm

re: #556 sattv4u2

and know that they cover an area about the size of Rhode Island. The infrastructure needed to do the same here in the states is cost prohibitive.

Linky?

569 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:31:13pm

re: #567 Cato the Elder

Please link, because I do believe you're misquoting me.

Can't, you deleted the thread.

570 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:32:05pm

re: #565 CapeCoddah

Lol how'd you get from what I said to there?

571 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:32:58pm

re: #569 reine.de.tout

Can't, you deleted the thread.

I did not use the phrase "evil little shits" on my deleted Facebook thread, either.

572 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:33:00pm

re: #565 CapeCoddah

Actually I'll throw you a line, I didn't say the accident had to happen, silly!

I said the moratorium had to happen!

I'll accept an apology whenever you're ready :D

573 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:33:36pm

re: #562 LudwigVanQuixote

No I think that we use a lot of oil. I think that rather than trying to drill more, we should use those funds to build wind and smart grids and then as we turn profits from them phase out oil all together.

That is fine.

It's also much, much different than a moratorium. Not drilling more and not drilling at all are fundamentally different statements.

You've now said both. Which do you mean?

574 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:33:39pm

re: #571 Cato the Elder

I did not use the phrase "evil little shits" on my deleted Facebook thread, either.

Then I apologize, and I cannot recall the phrase you used, but it came across to me that way.

575 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:33:44pm

re: #566 sattv4u2

Bull AND shit

I read your hand selected links as well as others

well then you clearly did not understand them. As to hand selected... if you have something to back up your ridiculous and false - and provably false contentions - please post it. Yet you never do. You just spout off with no understanding.

Wind turns a profit in Denmark, Germany and Israel. It could here too.

Start with the facts or don't waste time.

576 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:34:29pm

re: #573 Aceofwhat?

That is fine.

It's also much, much different than a moratorium. Not drilling more and not drilling at all are fundamentally different statements.

You've now said both. Which do you mean?

Well until everything offshore follows the best safety regs - moratorium. In the mean time, start the wind.

577 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:34:45pm

re: #571 Cato the Elder

I did not use the phrase "evil little shits" on my deleted Facebook thread, either.

re: #574 reine.de.tout

Then I apologize, and I cannot recall the phrase you used, but it came across to me that way.

You did, however, blame them for having the audacity to work for BP.

578 McSpiff  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:36:17pm

re: #577 reine.de.tout

You did, however, blame them for having the audacity to work for BP.

Should we not allow companies to go bankrupt either? Sometimes management fucks up and people lose jobs. Such is the nature of capitalism.

579 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:36:20pm

re: #576 LudwigVanQuixote

Well until everything offshore follows the best safety regs - moratorium.

Quoted for emphasis. Oil drilling isn't the only industry in the gulf, and until we can be relatively sure that they won't ruin everything for everyone else again, they need to go put someone elses coastline at risk.

580 OldnGrumpy  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:36:22pm

Here's something by the Dan of Steel

Youtube Video

...and with I bid all you Lizards and Lizardettes adieu

581 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:36:42pm

Hot Air linked to this tonight.....
Ron Paul vs Sarah Palin Tea Party summit , Freedom Watch 12 June 2010

Youtube Video

I admit that I've been avoiding watching this. Sarah Palin vs Ron Paul on the Lew Rockwell/Alex Jones/Birch Society Variety Hour (courtesy of Fox News, of course). Complete insanity.
Next Weeks scheduled guests: Glenn Beck and Denis Kucinich
/I shit you not

582 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:36:43pm

re: #562 LudwigVanQuixote

No I think that we use a lot of oil. I think that rather than trying to drill more, we should use those funds to build wind and smart grids and then as we turn profits from them phase out oil all together.

Right, but in this case that is not happening, the oil production is simply going to other countries with absolutely zero plans to reduce US consumption. Also, having up to 14% of electricity sourced to wind like Denmark, even if that was possible in the US, would reduce the use of coal and gas, not oil. Only 1% of US electrical generation is from oil.

583 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:37:17pm

re: #572 windsagio

Actually I'll throw you a line, I didn't say the accident had to happen, silly!

I said the moratorium had to happen!

I'll accept an apology whenever you're ready :D

I disagree. It didn't have to happen. It was as dumb a response as GWB's plan to limit embryonic stem cell research.

This was a deep-water drill. Very, very different from a shallow-water drill.

One can be shut off by a dude in a suit if things go wrong. The other, not so much.

584 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:37:45pm

re: #568 Gus 802

heres but one of many

I recall this from when I lived in Massachusetts

[Link: www.greenberkshires.org...]

585 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:37:47pm

re: #579 windsagio

I should note also, I know that especially in the shortterm another accident is vanishingly unlikely. That being said, they still have no meaningful way of dealing with accidents that do happen. Until then, they can drill somewehre else.

Maybe all that rich crude and $$$ laying fallow will encourage them to develop some real disaster response techniques.

586 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:37:56pm

re: #570 windsagio

Lol how'd you get from what I said to there?

I apologize Windsagio. I misread the post and thought you meant the blowout. Sorry!

587 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:38:11pm

A hooker told me she thought I was "very sexy" tonight.

I think she just wanted money, tho.

I got to ask her if her momma knew how she talked to strangers.

588 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:38:23pm

re: #572 windsagio

Already sent.

589 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:38:38pm

re: #549 LudwigVanQuixote

It's just not the same...

590 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:39:27pm

re: #589 Floral Giraffe

It's just not the same...

lol

591 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:39:38pm

re: #579 windsagio

Brazil okay with you? From what I read that's exactly where some are going. Going deep too. Not to slander Brazil, but do we have reason to think they will regulate deep drilling better?

Moratorium means relocated rigs, not shelved shutdown rigs.

592 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:39:45pm

re: #583 Aceofwhat?

There's also the political element, both sides would have eaten Obama alive if he hadn't put the moratorium in. As it is, only the right is trying to eat him alive.

I've made the argument for a moratorium anyways in other posts here, I won't repeat them :)

593 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:40:02pm

re: #576 LudwigVanQuixote

Well until everything offshore follows the best safety regs - moratorium. In the mean time, start the wind.

Moratorium on deep-water drilling that clearly needs better standards or moratorium on all of it, even the shallow stuff?

And do you still think a government-imposed moratorium is the free market at work?

Gah. Come on. You're sharper than this.

594 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:40:12pm

re: #586 CapeCoddah

Accepted :D

Thank you very much ;)

(and sorry for the excess snark :p)

595 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:40:27pm

re: #590 LudwigVanQuixote

What?
I'ts not.

596 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:40:30pm

re: #571 Cato the Elder

I did not use the phrase "evil little shits" on my deleted Facebook thread, either.

re: #574 reine.de.tout

Then I apologize, and I cannot recall the phrase you used, but it came across to me that way.

Yes, sir. You did.

597 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:41:03pm

re: #510 LudwigVanQuixote

Stable boys and city horse poo sweepers had to find other work as well.

That is a very nice way to talk about the folks who work their asses off in the oil fields to feed and clothe their families and to put their kids through college.

598 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:41:20pm

re: #578 McSpiff

How is that the same as a government ordered shutdown?

599 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:41:35pm

re: #591 Rightwingconspirator

If we can't stop them, better there than here.

Its risk analysis of course, but I just don't think its worth the risk. If they're willing to take it, that's their business.

600 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:41:39pm

re: #594 windsagio

Accepted :D

Thank you very much ;)

(and sorry for the excess snark :p)

You are welcome and no problem. Hopefully you and I can play nice in the sandbox.

601 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:42:04pm

re: #581 Killgore Trout

Hot Air linked to this tonight...
Ron Paul vs Sarah Palin Tea Party summit , Freedom Watch 12 June 2010

[Video]I admit that I've been avoiding watching this. Sarah Palin vs Ron Paul on the Lew Rockwell/Alex Jones/Birch Society Variety Hour (courtesy of Fox News, of course). Complete insanity.
Next Weeks scheduled guests: Glenn Beck and Denis Kucinich
/I shit you not

Yowza.

Whatever test one needs to pass in order to be invited is one i hope to FAIL...

602 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:42:11pm

re: #575 LudwigVanQuixote

Show me a wind farm in the USA that is operational and currently making a profit
[Link: www.google.com...]

603 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:42:25pm

re: #595 Floral Giraffe

What?
I'ts not.

of course it isn't ;)

604 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:42:29pm

re: #600 CapeCoddah

We'll just stay off of certain subjects and all will be well :D

605 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:42:42pm

re: #574 reine.de.tout

Then I apologize, and I cannot recall the phrase you used, but it came across to me that way.

Reine:

I get that you're upset.

I am not your enemy.

I deleted the Facebook thread because I took a second, hard look at my original post there and decided that I was being deliberately inflammatory. And since, at the time I deleted it, you and Coddah were the only ones responding, and you both post here, I figured I'd save the rest of my FB friends the misery and continue the discussion here.

That's all it is, on my part - a discussion. I am not the person who pulled the plug on deepwater drilling in the Gulf. I'm not even sure that was the right call.

But surely one cannot bemoan the ecological disaster that has overtaken the Gulf and at the same time claim in all seriousness that the best thing to do is blame BP alone and carry on as before?! A moratorium is inconvenient, but it means a pause, not a ban. If we cannot even take a break to take stock of the situation, then we are truly locked in to our actions and will never change until much, much worse things happen. If then.

My reflections on the morality of any given paycheck source last night were merely that - my reflections.

606 Macha  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:43:15pm

re: #159 Aceofwhat?

in a numerical fashion. blonde is normal in Sweden, black is normal in Mozambique...basically, it's a useless definition as it pertains to accepting others. i wish to strike it from elementary school vocabulary.

I think the problem lies in how "normal" is commonly used. Normal's opposite is abnormal, which nearly always has a negative connotation. So to say that something is not normal imbues it with a negativity of sorts. If normal is replaced with the word norm, a word which commonly refers to numbers, as you said above, it doesn't carry a judgmental quality with it.

607 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:43:48pm

re: #581 Killgore Trout

I tried to watch it, I really did...

608 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:43:52pm

re: #606 Macha

TIMEWARP!

609 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:44:19pm

re: #603 LudwigVanQuixote

GAH. I'm gonna go walk another mile.
BBIAB

610 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:44:21pm

re: #597 Spare O'Lake

That is a very nice way to talk about the folks who work their asses off in the oil fields to feed and clothe their families and to put their kids through college.

As opposed to the many more who fish for a living? I suppose they don't work their asses off either. What about the people who work the hotels and the tourist industry? I guess they are lazy white trash too? There are more Americans involved here than just oil workers.

611 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:44:32pm

re: #596 CapeCoddah

I did not.

612 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:44:50pm

re: #609 Floral Giraffe

GAH. I'm gonna go walk another mile.
BBIAB

or you could drop me a line.

613 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:44:59pm

I need to break in to note that Rodan is lying about me, again. Earlier today, I responded to a very nasty Stalker post by 'Bob from Breckinridge" that attacked Cato and Charles by saying "The Tea Party Express bus is leaving; Be sure you're under it." Rodan is now calling that a threat, rather than the normal put down it was intended as. That fellow lives to take us out of context.

614 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:45:22pm

re: #604 windsagio

We'll just stay off of certain subjects and all will be well :D

LOL, You got yourself a deal!

615 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:45:22pm

re: #596 CapeCoddah

Yes, sir. You did.

I did not, and you are now defriended and blocked.

616 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:45:24pm

re: #584 sattv4u2

heres but one of many

I recall this from when I lived in Massachusetts

[Link: www.greenberkshires.org...]

OK Then you know that's a greenie site. Some would say leaning towards Luddism. Apparently they're happy with getting their electricity from coal in order to keep their ridges pristine. NIMBYism.

617 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:45:25pm

re: #599 windsagio

We could have stopped them. All we had to do was inspect, enforce the regulations and continue. With renewed effort for wind and solar fine.
Over reacting like this is what wrecked the nuclear power growth here.

Anyone here know how to calculate hoe many deepwater horizons would be off set by say twice as many nuclear power facilities as we have now??

618 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:45:28pm

re: #592 windsagio

There's also the political element, both sides would have eaten Obama alive if he hadn't put the moratorium in. As it is, only the right is trying to eat him alive.

I've made the argument for a moratorium anyways in other posts here, I won't repeat them :)

Oh noes. The political element. That thing you always wonder about, the fascination with Reagan?

It's a spine. Bones. In the backal region. Good virtue in a prez.

;)

619 freetoken  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:45:51pm

re: #581 Killgore Trout

I watched the intro - couldn't take any more of it...

Paul vs. Palin? Eewww... Much rather watch Kana vs Arisa.

620 Mocking Jay  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:46:13pm

re: #613 Dark_Falcon

I need to break in to note that Rodan is lying about me, again. Earlier today, I responded to a very nasty Stalker post by 'Bob from Breckinridge" that attacked Cato and Charles by saying "The Tea Party Express bus is leaving; Be sure you're under it." Rodan is now calling that a threat, rather than the normal put down it was intended as. That fellow lives to take us out of context.

Well if anyone would know about threats it would be the experts, no...?

621 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:46:36pm

BBL ,, work beckons

622 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:46:51pm

re: #519 Cato the Elder

I myself lost an $80k job over two years ago, and I will presumably never make that kind of money again. No one wept for me.

Ahhh sooo.

623 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:47:10pm

re: #617 Rightwingconspirator

...

Anyone here know how to calculate hoe many deepwater horizons would be off set by say twice as many nuclear power facilities as we have now??

None. Petroleum only accounts for 1% of US electrical generation.

624 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:47:12pm

re: #613 Dark_Falcon

I need to break in to note that Rodan is lying about me, again. Earlier today, I responded to a very nasty Stalker post by 'Bob from Breckinridge" that attacked Cato and Charles by saying "The Tea Party Express bus is leaving; Be sure you're under it." Rodan is now calling that a threat, rather than the normal put down it was intended as. That fellow lives to take us out of context.

Yeah, they do that all the time. I only read them because they talk about me frequently but don't worry. Only the looniest of wingnuts take them seriously. It's all nonsense.

625 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:47:26pm

re: #615 Cato the Elder

I did not, and you are now defriended and blocked.

I am sorry for that. But I stand by what I said.

626 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:48:19pm

re: #619 freetoken

I couldn't watch the whole thing either. Crazy vs stupid only appeals so much.

627 McSpiff  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:48:39pm

re: #598 Rightwingconspirator

How is that the same as a government ordered shutdown?

In BP's case, as Reine specifically commented? Because they turned the Gulf into a crime scene. Of course BP's operations in the gulf should be shut down. They just demonstrated they don't have a clue how to safely drill a well.

I get that not everyone who works for BP sucks at their job. In fact, its likely a minuscule percentage. Is it unfortunate that the good ones work for such a shitty company? Yes. But unfortunately the company they worked for fucked up, in a truly epic manner. They destroyed entire industries.

So no, just because you're a nice person who works hard on an oil rig does not mean you get to go to work. Just like the nice hard working fishermen doesn't get to go to work either.

The idea that BP would be allowed to continue drilling in the gulf is the exact same "Too Big to Fail" mentality that so many here spoke out against. You don't have a right to a job. Sorry. Sometimes good people lose their job because they have incompetent managers. Sometimes people lose their job because other people have incompetent managers.

628 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:48:52pm

re: #625 CapeCoddah

I am sorry for that. But I stand by what I said.

Don't let that senile dementia get you down.

629 Varek Raith  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:49:11pm

re: #619 freetoken

I watched the intro - couldn't take any more of it...

Paul vs. Palin? Eewww... Much rather watch Kana vs Arisa.

You can have Paul and Palin.
I'll take the other two.

630 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:49:13pm

re: #617 Rightwingconspirator

You might have a point if all the oil drilled in the gulf were earmarked for the US and only allowed to be used there :P

Anyways, the problem is, due to Several Decades of deregulation and borderline corruption in the MMS, there simply wasn't going to be meaningful oversight of the rigs. The companies naturally did everything they could to cut costs, and the regulators did everything they could to not notice.

I don't expect that to change much, really, but I do think its worth forcing them to develop real disaster response techniques, and about the only thing we CAN do is give them a bit of a timeout.

631 McSpiff  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:49:40pm

re: #615 Cato the Elder

I did not, and you are now defriended and blocked.

I read that as "Defrocked" and was very confused.

632 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:49:41pm

re: #628 Cato the Elder

Don't let that senile dementia get you down.

No sir, never fear.

633 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:49:57pm

re: #618 Aceofwhat?

See what good having a spine did Mr. "No grain until you fix human rights, and also we don't negotiate with terrorists!" Carter? :p

634 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:50:06pm

re: #606 Macha

I think the problem lies in how "normal" is commonly used. Normal's opposite is abnormal, which nearly always has a negative connotation. So to say that something is not normal imbues it with a negativity of sorts. If normal is replaced with the word norm, a word which commonly refers to numbers, as you said above, it doesn't carry a judgmental quality with it.

That's exactly why i don't like 'normal'. Both it and its antonym describe an attribute that doesn't matter.

Kids don't instinctively think that different is bad. They only learn it if we either tell them that different is bad, or lie and pretend that nobody is different.

I quite dislike both of those approaches, as you might have already guessed!

635 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:50:07pm

re: #623 Bagua

Okay but do add heat for the northern latitudes. Electric instead of oil fired. But darn, I thought gas powered plants was bigger than that. Got lots of them here in SoCal.

636 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:50:59pm

re: #608 windsagio

TIMEWARP!

heh

637 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:51:36pm

re: #636 Aceofwhat?

Just always a tad incongruous ya konw? :D

638 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:52:06pm

re: #633 windsagio

See what good having a spine did Mr. "No grain until you fix human rights, and also we don't negotiate with terrorists!" Carter? :p

I set you up for that! Nice work...don't forget to mark me down for an assist there-

639 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:54:04pm

re: #397 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually their record in Africa is abominable. Remember, that because of them, BOP, Nigeria has greater emissions than England because they find it cheaper to just burn the natural gas they uncover.

That was sort of my point. I think they generally screw up in places where people have less ability to make things unpleasant for them when they screw up.

640 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:54:47pm

re: #635 Rightwingconspirator

Okay but do add heat for the northern latitudes. Electric instead of oil fired. But darn, I thought gas powered plants was bigger than that. Got lots of them here in SoCal.

It is conceivable there would be some reduction in heating oil use, but this is unlikely as it is not competitive with gas. If our goal is a reduction of US domestic oil use in the next 10 to 20 years, we should focus on what is realistic and achievable.

641 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:54:56pm

re: #637 windsagio

Just always a tad incongruous ya konw? :D

Oh, sure, but i was chuckling because i never mind reprising one of MY posts, don't you know, and that little bit of self-realization was good for me...

642 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:56:40pm

re: #631 McSpiff

I read that as "Defrocked" and was very confused.

Well, he does take his Catholicism seriously/

643 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:57:03pm

re: #624 Killgore Trout

Yeah, they do that all the time. I only read them because they talk about me frequently but don't worry. Only the looniest of wingnuts take them seriously. It's all nonsense.

I just feel obligated to respond to distortions and lies. They tick me off.

644 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:57:47pm

I was going to comment but the level of vitriol has become toxic.

Why can't you "small people" (non-BP Execs) get along on your puny and insignificant issues, after all it isn't like you have to try to run a household with seven maids, two cooks, a butler, a governess, a chauffer, and three gardeners. You have no idea what a headache it is being a Peer of the Realm!

;)

645 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:58:33pm

re: #493 Spare O'Lake

Yeah, right. People who have JOBS in the coal mines or in the oil and gas fields are immoral assholes. They should all quit and feed their families by working at a burger joint serving crud to kids or by sucking the public tit instead.

I keep hearing around here that you don't have a right to a job...

646 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:58:44pm

Oh hey a shoutout to Mandy-Best to your mom, I hope all goes well.

I guess my problem (okay I have a list) with the rigs leaving is they get out from under the new inspections and refits. Another big spill in part of the oceanic food chain could more than double our problems.

I'm tired, off to sleep.
I can barely hold up a sentence structure this tired. :)

647 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:59:45pm

re: #508 Decatur Deb

I've considered myself a lefty since 1962. Perhaps my socialist education was lacking, but I rarely heard of Alinsky until the last few years. That was mostly from anti-leftists on the intertubes. He seems at most to be a tactician of one stream of leftism. (Not mine.)

Alinsky's reputation is currently far more shiny with the right than the left.

648 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:00:01pm

re: #627 McSpiff

In BP's case, as Reine specifically commented? Because they turned the Gulf into a crime scene. Of course BP's operations in the gulf should be shut down. They just demonstrated they don't have a clue how to safely drill a well.

So you'd be ok if those people kept working in the gulf for other companies?

649 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:02:07pm

re: #645 SanFranciscoZionist

I keep hearing around here that you don't have a right to a job...

But they have a right to expect that their job will not vanish overnight arbitrarily for nothing more than a political game being played by the president to push his agenda.

650 McSpiff  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:03:37pm

re: #648 Aceofwhat?

So you'd be ok if those people kept working in the gulf for other companies?

If those companies can publicly explain how they would respond to a Deep Horizon event such that we aren't stuck waiting for months to hopefully seal a blowout, then hell yes! Show me a disaster response plan that's workable, and I wish you all the best in your commercial endeavors.

651 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:04:05pm

re: #638 Aceofwhat?

Dude, always got your back!

652 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:04:48pm

re: #649 CapeCoddah

I like the President, but I don't think he's so much pushing his agenda, as being pushed around by an unwinnable situation.

653 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:05:04pm

re: #645 SanFranciscoZionist

I keep hearing around here that you don't have a right to a job...

Eh. Almost.

To me, in a healthy economy, a job is sort of like speech.

I can appoint myself the CEO of Redonkulus, Inc. No one will listen to me talk and i won't make a dollar. To have a relevant job, or relevant speech, i have to do relevant things with relevant people.

In either case, i sorta want the government to stay the hell out of it...both my job and my speech, with a nod to adequate regulation. In other words, there are enough reasons (some better than others) for people to lose their jobs. Having the government snatch it away from you in a fit of pique just doesn't seem like one of the better reasons.

654 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:05:51pm

re: #652 windsagio

I like the President, but I don't think he's so much pushing his agenda, as being pushed around by an unwinnable situation.

He is in an unwinnable situation. AND, he is using this to push his agenda.

655 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:06:28pm

re: #650 McSpiff

If those companies can publicly explain how they would respond to a Deep Horizon event such that we aren't stuck waiting for months to hopefully seal a blowout, then hell yes! Show me a disaster response plan that's workable, and I wish you all the best in your commercial endeavors.

Ooh - or, or, i show you a bunch of unrelated situations and you not pretend that they're all inches from being Event Horizon...

656 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:06:32pm

I have to try and set the record straight here.

I stand accused of using the phrase "evil little shits" to describe the workers in Louisiana who will lose jobs because of this drilling moratorium.

Now, drunk or sober, I have a pretty clear idea of what I write. And the Facebook thread in question, though deleted, happened last night at around this time, and I was sober as a judge.

Reine has accepted that this is not what I said; Cape Coddah has confirmed it, twice, despite my denial.

Given the things I've said here about Sarah Palin, and been deleted for saying, does anyone doubt that if I had used those words I would stand by them?

I deleted the Facebook thread, by the way, because I decided that my beginning post was deliberately inflammatory, and that the ensuing discussion served no one.

So it cannot be proved one way or the other, but again, if I had said that particular thing, I would remember it, and either back it up or apologize.

Cape Coddah, j'accuse! If you will merely admit that you might be wrong, I will turn about and apologize for the above rude comment, and all shall be well, and we can, if you like, continue the discussion on the very interesting question of morality in how one earns one's money.

If not, I rest my case and will go donate $1.11 to MoveOn.org.

657 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:06:51pm

re: #605 Cato the Elder

Reine:

I get that you're upset.

I am not your enemy.

I deleted the Facebook thread because I took a second, hard look at my original post there and decided that I was being deliberately inflammatory. And since, at the time I deleted it, you and Coddah were the only ones responding, and you both post here, I figured I'd save the rest of my FB friends the misery and continue the discussion here.

That's all it is, on my part - a discussion. I am not the person who pulled the plug on deepwater drilling in the Gulf. I'm not even sure that was the right call.

But surely one cannot bemoan the ecological disaster that has overtaken the Gulf and at the same time claim in all seriousness that the best thing to do is blame BP alone and carry on as before?! A moratorium is inconvenient, but it means a pause, not a ban. If we cannot even take a break to take stock of the situation, then we are truly locked in to our actions and will never change until much, much worse things happen. If then.

My reflections on the morality of any given paycheck source last night were merely that - my reflections.

Cato - I understand.
And of course, this is particularly difficult for me. And my family is OK. My husband has a job, and work. We are very fortunate.

If the moratorium lasts for 6 months (or longer), it is essentially permanent.
The rigs cannot afford to sit idle for six months. I believe I saw an estimate that it costs $500,000 A DAY for a rig to sit idle. The rigs in the Gulf of Mexico are among the newest and the best rigs around.

They will enter into long-term contracts with companies drilling in Brazil, Africa, China. It is happening now. Once gone, they will be locked into those contracts, and will not be available to return for a very long time.

So - someone will make new rigs? It takes 8-10 years, yes, YEARS, to build a new rig. There aren't a whole lot of companies that do it, there is limited demand for these things.

A six-month moratorium doesn't mean that drilling starts up again in 6 months. It means in six months companies can start to PLAN to drill in the Gulf again, at some point in the future. A six month moratorium means at minimum a two-year delay before drilling starts up again. It is more than a temporary inconvenience. It is devastation, for thousands.

Here is a piece of an e-mail I got from my husband, about whose safety I have been very concerned, as you can imagine. He has more than 30 years of experience, 25 in deepwater.

At the time the negative test was run they could have still easily pushed this all back into the formation. Squeezed cement from the top and made a good well. This was the time when more intelligent companies take their time, you have a good formation, let's protect that asset, do things right despite being over budget and behind schedule and make a good well and make some money. BP did the reverse. The Drilling Dept wanted to dump this disaster on the Completions Dept. as fast as possible and get it off their books. Great management. I have absolutely no simpathy for BP.

He's worked for Shell, Exxon, and many smaller companies, all of which are part of that "intellgent companies" bit he talks about.

Could it happen again? Sure. And that will be true after the moratorium, as well.

Is it likely to happen again? I believe not, or I would be insisting he take one of the office jobs that have been offered to him.

658 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:07:07pm

re: #654 CapeCoddah

Not half hard enough is the problem :p This is a place where it would do to really really twist that knife.

659 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:07:11pm

re: #645 SanFranciscoZionist

I keep hearing around here that you don't have a right to a job...

I don't...but isn't that between me and those who are prepared to pay for my services?

660 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:07:13pm

re: #648 Aceofwhat?

So you'd be ok if those people kept working in the gulf for other companies?

Right now? Yes.

Because i can't see their bosses doing what BP did and saying, "we can cut nine hours by skipping this", or "we can save 10 hours by cheating that."

We already know at least four ways that BP fucked up while trying to quickly finalize a drilling project that had already run 43 days over it's allotted schedule. Somehow I just don't see anyone doing that again in the very near future, or see the newly awakened government regulators allowing them to even if they tried.

I think offshore drilling is about as safe as it possibly can be again, for at least a little while...

661 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:08:56pm

re: #659 Spare O'Lake

I don't...but isn't that between me and those who are prepared to pay for my services?

OK, sure. Now why does the President need to do anything about this situation again?

662 McSpiff  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:09:01pm

re: #655 Aceofwhat?

Ooh - or, or, i show you a bunch of unrelated situations and you not pretend that they're all inches from being Event Horizon...

Nope, doesn't fly for me. You're doing deep ocean oil extraction in a body of water that's used by many other companies, industries and people, then I need to see a response plan to a blowout before I'll support you. Saying "We won't fuck up, we promise" just doesn't cut it anymore.

663 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:09:51pm

re: #627 McSpiff

In BP's case, as Reine specifically commented? Because they turned the Gulf into a crime scene. Of course BP's operations in the gulf should be shut down. They just demonstrated they don't have a clue how to safely drill a well.

I get that not everyone who works for BP sucks at their job. In fact, its likely a minuscule percentage. Is it unfortunate that the good ones work for such a shitty company? Yes. But unfortunately the company they worked for fucked up, in a truly epic manner. They destroyed entire industries.

So no, just because you're a nice person who works hard on an oil rig does not mean you get to go to work. Just like the nice hard working fishermen doesn't get to go to work either.

The idea that BP would be allowed to continue drilling in the gulf is the exact same "Too Big to Fail" mentality that so many here spoke out against. You don't have a right to a job. Sorry. Sometimes good people lose their job because they have incompetent managers. Sometimes people lose their job because other people have incompetent managers.

I'd be thrilled if it was just BP shut down.
But it's not just BP.
It's everybody.

664 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:09:54pm

Goddamn Apple (or maybe Damon Albern).

The video for On melancholy hill is only available for pay on iTunes.

Damnable corporatist bastards!

665 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:10:16pm

re: #656 Cato the Elder

Cato, I value your friendship too much to turn down your offer. I concede I might be wrong.

666 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:11:36pm

re: #665 CapeCoddah

Cato, I value your friendship too much to turn down your offer. I concede I might be wrong.

I accept with a full heart and gratitude. Please allow me to refriend you.

667 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:12:08pm

re: #665 CapeCoddah

Cato, I value your friendship too much to turn down your offer. I concede I might be wrong.

Je applaudir!

668 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:12:16pm

I know you guys have moved on to other topics already, but after reading this thread something kept nagging at the back of my mind. I just remembered what it was: the Paliban. Yes, Paliban as in Taliban. A snippet from their About Us page:

We've received comment from a handful of folks that our name, Paliban, is offensive to them. They say that we sound "just like those fundamentalists in Afghanistan" and wonder if we're trying to compare ourselves to them.

The answer?

While we do not agree with the Taliban's Jesus-hating religious choice, we do agree with them on an important point: God's Law is written in the Bible*, and we should follow ALL of it.

ALL of it means ALL, not just the bits we happen to like or find convenient! That means outlawing adultery, divorce, homosexuality, working on the Sabbath, wearing of blended fabrics, and polyculture, among other things!

I'm not going to link directly to this bad craziness, but here's the Google cache for their home page. If anyone still thinks that these people (they are Dominionists) are less of a danger than radical Islamists, then you might want to rethink things. Be sure you check out the political bumper sticker looking banner at the bottom of their home page about keeping America safe from witches.

They're just lunatic fringe? Yeah, for now. But then things we thought were fringe a year or two ago seem to be becoming mainstream now.

I have to get away from this stuff now because the veins in my forehead are starting to throb, so please forgive me for not sticking around for comments/debate.

669 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:12:37pm

re: #647 SanFranciscoZionist

Alinsky's reputation is currently far more shiny with the right than the left.

Billy Ayers and friends thought he was just peachy.

670 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:12:38pm

re: #665 CapeCoddah

re: #666 Cato the Elder

Oh, my gawd.
ugh ugh ugh.
Let's not have a love fest, puh-leeeeeeze.
I can't take it.

671 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:13:00pm

re: #668 CuriousLurker

Ok, that's mindblowingly insane.

672 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:13:07pm

re: #666 Cato the Elder

I accept with a full heart and gratitude. Please allow me to refriend you.

Please allow me to graciously restore all your twitter followers.

Ain't love grand!

673 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:13:20pm

re: #660 ausador

Right now? Yes.

Because i can't see their bosses doing what BP did and saying, "we can cut nine hours by skipping this", or "we can save 10 hours by cheating that."

We already know at least four ways that BP fucked up while trying to quickly finalize a drilling project that had already run 43 days over it's allotted schedule. Somehow I just don't see anyone doing that again in the very near future, or see the newly awakened government regulators allowing them to even if they tried.

I think offshore drilling is about as safe as it possibly can be again, for at least a little while...

Me too. There are some others here who don't seem to understand the dissonance they create when simultaneously mocking Mr. Swedish BP "Small People" Executive and writing off an entire industry as if it's all their fault, and screw the job losses.

In other words, damn that executive, but screw the little people anyway.

ECHO echo echo

674 McSpiff  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:13:45pm

re: #663 reine.de.tout

I'd be thrilled if it was just BP shut down.
But it's not just BP.
It's everybody.

Like I said, I want to see everyone submit response plans to a blow out. We've seen it happen, we've seen the cost it has. Since no one else has had any bright ideas how to stop this within several months, I support a moratorium on drilling until the industry figures out a way to deal with this type of situation within a timely manner. Like I said saying "We won't screw up, we promise" just doesn't cut it for me anymore.

675 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:14:06pm

re: #666 Cato the Elder

I accept with a full heart and gratitude. Please allow me to refriend you.

No need to even ask.

676 Mocking Jay  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:14:22pm

re: #668 CuriousLurker

omg I clicked on the Operation Rapture page and I can't unclick it.

677 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:14:46pm

Wind energy in west Texas, Wind Turbines

Youtube Video
678 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:14:58pm

re: #670 reine.de.tout

re: #666 Cato the Elder

Oh, my gawd.
ugh ugh ugh.
Let's not have a love fest, puh-leeeze.
I can't take it.

LOL, Relax Reine, it's all virtual.

679 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:15:05pm

Texas Wind Power

680 freetoken  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:15:27pm

Since we are talking about oil... let me confess, I went and downloaded "Earth 2100" just to see what it was about (see up thread.)

Only 15 minutes into it, but what strikes me here is the same that usually strikes me about doomer visions - they are accelerated by many times how long reality takes to unfold.

In their story/scenario there is a dramatic gasoline/oil crisis by 2015. Now, even though the peak oilers will no doubt be proven correct some day, even pessimistic (though serious) estimates of oil production in 2015 put the amount at only less than what it is today.

Even with the deep water moratorium it is unlikely that we will see empty tanks at the gasoline stations in 2015 - because Americans still are rather luxuriant in their driving habits. E.g., when I watch the autos go by on the roads/freeway even today I see very little carpooling.

As far as BP - they've earned the bad press they are getting, so I cry no tears for them. It is unfortunate and sad that so many "small people" will be paying for the mismanagement of the few, but that is how it works on this planet.

681 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:16:42pm

re: #670 reine.de.tout
/threw up in mouth a little/

682 freetoken  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:17:21pm

re: #680 freetoken

... in 2015 put the amount at only slightly less than what it is today.

683 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:17:25pm

re: #676 JasonA
That'll learn ya'/

684 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:17:29pm

re: #662 McSpiff

Nope, doesn't fly for me. You're doing deep ocean oil extraction in a body of water that's used by many other companies, industries and people, then I need to see a response plan to a blowout before I'll support you. Saying "We won't fuck up, we promise" just doesn't cut it anymore.

I have a better idea. Why doesn't your prized government enforcement stop snorting coke off of their buddies' asses and start actually enforcing regulations and stop permitting companies to cut really really important corners? Go ahead and demand your response plan...and in the 180 days it'll take to draft an adequate plan, do your fucking job and don't let someone blow up an oil rig. How's that?

Oh, no. Let's fire everyone instead. Well, except for the government. Note that they still have jobs...

685 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:17:46pm

re: #669 Spare O'Lake

Billy Ayers and friends thought he was just peachy.

Yeah, and until 2008 no one had heard of Ayers for thirty-five years either.

686 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:17:51pm

re: #679 Gus 802

Going through the Wild Horse Wind Farm in E. WA is always a stunning experience. They're shockingly beautiful, especially in the morning.

687 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:18:09pm

re: #670 reine.de.tout

re: #666 Cato the Elder

Oh, my gawd.
ugh ugh ugh.
Let's not have a love fest, puh-leeeze.
I can't take it.

*Smootch* {reine.de.toute]

MP3 Audio
688 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:18:31pm

re: #668 CuriousLurker

Wearing of blended fabric? They seriously say that?

689 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:18:59pm

re: #664 windsagio
Try googling it with YouTube.

690 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:19:05pm

re: #661 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, sure. Now why does the President need to do anything about this situation again?

He needs to enforce the government's own safety regulations and stop using the crisis to push his political agenda.

691 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:19:31pm

re: #689 tradewind

Believe me, way ahead of you, I can't find that anyones pirated the full version yet :D

692 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:19:37pm

re: #668 CuriousLurker

It is a POE SITE you my friend have been suckered, sorry.

If you go to their "education" page it is all atheist or secularist books.

[Link: www.paliban.org...]

693 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:20:02pm

re: #661 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, sure. Now why does the President need to do anything about this situation again?

Why, indeed, did we need a moratorium?

694 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:20:11pm

re: #686 windsagio

Going through the Wild Horse Wind Farm in E. WA is always a stunning experience. They're shockingly beautiful, especially in the morning.

It's the future regardless of what the naysayers have to say. Eventually they're going to turn a profit. However, they're already turning a profit for the land leasors. If it's good enough for West Texas that should say something to the Luddites.

695 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:20:18pm

re: #690 Spare O'Lake

A few people have said that... Is that really what you guys got out of this situation?

If so its funny, because the left is all up in arms that he's not really taking advantage of the situation at all.

696 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:20:51pm

re: #692 ausador

Dammit, thats what I get for not clicking.


...

Geeze, POE is still around?

697 McSpiff  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:21:00pm

re: #684 Aceofwhat?

I have a better idea. Why doesn't your prized government enforcement stop snorting coke off of their buddies' asses and start actually enforcing regulations and stop permitting companies to cut really really important corners? Go ahead and demand your response plan...and in the 180 days it'll take to draft an adequate plan, do your fucking job and don't let someone blow up an oil rig. How's that?

Oh, no. Let's fire everyone instead. Well, except for the government. Note that they still have jobs...

What the fuck are you even trying to say here? Its the government's fault that BP blew up a rig, so its not fair to demand the industry have actual incident response measures in place?

Look, if any company came forward today and said "We're going to drill relief wells in place for every production well we drill" I'd say give them the permits yesterday! Its that easy. Hell, drilling all those relief wells should create a ton of rig jobs! Y'all should love that plan!

698 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:21:03pm

re: #686 windsagio
.... until the random bird takes a wrong turn./

699 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:21:29pm

re: #657 reine.de.tout

Reine, thank you for the gracious answer.

I do not make it a practice to dance on graves (Pat Buchanan's, may he live and prosper, excepted), nor to rejoice at people's misfortunes.

And again, I do not accept the moratorium at face value. More to the point: I think it is highly hypocritical of car-driving, heating-oil-burning Americans to think that they can solve the problem of our oil-based economy by pointing fingers and "boycotting" petroleum products by avoiding Exxon or BP stations. Poor fools. Oil is fungible, and though you may tank at the local cheap station, the gas you burn to take your kid to soccer practice may still contain a significant percentage of oil recovered from Exxon and BP.

Hell, I drive a Lincoln, and make no apologies.

I do, however, think that if a complete disaster like this one cannot be used to start a full-on Manhattan Project for oil replacement and independence, then we are truly screwed. And I and other Obama supporters were deeply disappointed that he did not have anything to offer along those lines last night.

700 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:21:30pm

re: #695 windsagio

A few people have said that... Is that really what you guys got out of this situation?

If so its funny, because the left is all up in arms that he's not really taking advantage of the situation at all.

People see what they expect to see. Why should this situation be any different?

701 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:22:26pm

re: #698 tradewind

We don't have that much complaints around here about them really (nor the Gorge ones for that matter).

WA/OR are very different than MA or CA. (Altho we're closer to Cali than to most places).

702 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:22:49pm

re: #700 SanFranciscoZionist

Put it up as a rhetorical question :D

703 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:24:09pm

re: #701 windsagio

We don't have that much complaints around here about them really (nor the Gorge ones for that matter).

WA/OR are very different than MA or CA. (Altho we're closer to Cali than to most places).

We do actually have wind farms in CA.

704 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:24:13pm

re: #665 CapeCoddah

re: #666 Cato the Elder

Thank you both, for your good-heartedness and consideration. You are truly credits to LGF and indeed the whole world.

705 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:24:19pm

re: #697 McSpiff

What the fuck are you even trying to say here? Its the government's fault that BP blew up a rig, so its not fair to demand the industry have actual incident response measures in place?

Look, if any company came forward today and said "We're going to drill relief wells in place for every production well we drill" I'd say give them the permits yesterday! Its that easy. Hell, drilling all those relief wells should create a ton of rig jobs! Y'all should love that plan!

Yeah, fine. That's a fine plan. Demand your relief wells.

Again, that's wholly different than a moratorium. Make up your mind.

If Obama had said "thou shalt drill relief wells or suffer a moratorium for the next six months whilst we figure this out", i'd have hoisted my gin in his honor.

But nooo. Moratorium. So now it's Spiff's turn. Moratorium or no moratorium? (remember, drilling with preconditions ≠ moratorium)

706 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:25:10pm

re: #704 Dark_Falcon

re: #666 Cato the Elder

Thank you both, for your good-heartedness and consideration. You are truly credits to LGF and indeed the whole world.

Geeze, I don't know as I would go quite as far as the whole world... but if you say so!

707 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:25:30pm

re: #668 CuriousLurker

Those popping veins make you cute in my eyes. But I'd rather see them resulting from wild dervish whirling!

708 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:26:20pm

re: #697 McSpiff

What the fuck are you even trying to say here? Its the government's fault that BP blew up a rig, so its not fair to demand the industry have actual incident response measures in place?

And no. I'm trying to ask why you're so focused on better plans from the companies without so much as pausing to wonder how much coke it takes to get five MMS employees to screw in a toxic light bulb?

709 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:26:21pm

re: #692 ausador

It is a POE SITE you my friend have been suckered, sorry.

If you go to their "education" page it is all atheist or secularist books.

[Link: www.paliban.org...]

Well, that's a relief. Sort of. The unnerving part is that it's close enough to reality to be believable

710 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:26:22pm

re: #706 CapeCoddah

Geeze, I don't know as I would go quite as far as the whole world... but if you say so!

D_F's world is really small. It goes by the name LGF.

711 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:26:39pm

re: #696 windsagio

Geeze, POE is still around?

Oh yes, thousands of him...

712 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:28:36pm

re: #703 SanFranciscoZionist

Isn't that where all this 'killing birds' stuff comes from or is that just another trumped up dealie?

713 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:28:41pm

re: #710 b_sharp

D_F's world is really small. It goes by the name LGF.

D_F is very good people.

714 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:29:06pm

PS:

Tradewind was right and I eventually

Youtube Video
so thanks for making me look again :D
Youtube Video
715 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:29:29pm

re: #713 CapeCoddah

D_F is very good people.

I agree whole heartedly.

716 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:30:02pm

re: #695 windsagio

A few people have said that... Is that really what you guys got out of this situation?

If so its funny, because the left is all up in arms that he's not really taking advantage of the situation at all.

I don't know what 'you guys" you're talking about.

The President is in a difficult situation. No one will be happy about what he does.
AND, he (and government agencies involved) have not been given full info. by BP, IMO.

But he still needs to lift the moratorium

717 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:30:23pm

re: #714 windsagio

Wow, I broke the tags there hard, let me try that again.

PS: Tradewind was right and I eventually found the video I was looking for, so thanks for making me look again :)

718 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:31:04pm

re: #716 reine.de.tout

"you guys" in this case means 'everyone who is saying "The president is using this to push his agenda"' ;)

719 Macha  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:31:07pm

re: #249 tradewind

It was solidly Republican for a long time. There was a huge influx of immigrants into the central part of the county, both Hispanic and Asian in the 80's and '90's. Bit by bit as local demographics changed, the iron grip held by the Republicans lessened. However, county government is still dominated by the right wing.

720 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:31:39pm

Windmills Are Killing Our Birds

A July 2008 study of the wind farm at Altamont Pass, Calif., estimated that its turbines kill an average of 80 golden eagles per year. The study, funded by the Alameda County Community Development Agency, also estimated that about 10,000 birds—nearly all protected by the migratory bird act—are being whacked every year at Altamont.

Altamont's turbines, located about 30 miles east of Oakland, Calif., kill more than 100 times as many birds as Exxon's tanks, and they do so every year. But the Altamont Pass wind farm does not face the same threat of prosecution, even though the bird kills at Altamont have been repeatedly documented by biologists since the mid-1990s.

721 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:31:42pm

re: #709 CuriousLurker

Well, that's a relief. Sort of. The unnerving part is that it's close enough to reality to be believable

It has to be in order to make the "POE" work doesn't it?

/

722 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:31:49pm

re: #672 Bagua

Please allow me to graciously restore all your twitter followers.

Ain't love grand!

I didn't know I had Twitter followers!re: #709 CuriousLurker

Well, that's a relief. Sort of. The unnerving part is that it's close enough to reality to be believable

Entirely understandable, given the existence of the Westboro Baptist Church, Atlas Shrieks, and others of that ilk.

You might want to write to the Paliban and confess how you were taken in, though. I'm sure they'd get a kick out of it.

723 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:32:08pm

re: #710 b_sharp

D_F's world is really small. It goes by the name LGF.

No, its a bit bigger than that. I'd certainly include my family, and my gaming group as well. But you were just being funny, and I know that.

724 lostlakehiker  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:32:24pm

re: #519 Cato the Elder

You really must persist in putting words in my mouth and thoughts in my head about this, eh?

I am addressing the insane folly of believing that we must continue to do the things that are killing your state to avoid of short- to medium-term dislocations in the job market.

For decades now, "conservatives" have taught us that no job is for life and we all can expect to do multiple things in our lives. How is this any different? People cheered here when it looked like GM might go out of business, and no tears were shed for those high-paying union jobs that actually went belly-up. Those goddamned blood-sucking union bastards would have to just deal with it, right?

I myself lost an $80k job over two years ago, and I will presumably never make that kind of money again. No one wept for me.

I don't wish harm on anyone, but what is so special about oil-rig jobs?

Well actually we're going to need oil for the duration of the careers of everybody working now. Even if we go full tilt into wind, solar, and nuclear, as we should, as we must, we'll need oil just to DO that full-tilt. Manufacturing requires energy and transportation, and right now, that means oil. Thirty years from now when we're 70% wind, solar, and nuclear, 10% hydro, and a remnant of coal and natural gas fired power, we'll still need oil as a feedstock for all sorts of plastics and industrial chemicals.

725 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:32:29pm

re: #697 McSpiff

What the fuck are you even trying to say here? Its the government's fault that BP blew up a rig, so its not fair to demand the industry have actual incident response measures in place?

Look, if any company came forward today and said "We're going to drill relief wells in place for every production well we drill" I'd say give them the permits yesterday! Its that easy. Hell, drilling all those relief wells should create a ton of rig jobs! Y'all should love that plan!

Relief wells are a great idea.
They double the danger.
Instead of having to seal up one hole, you have to seal two.
In other words, for every well drilled, instead of having to cement and seal ONE well that might blow up, you have to seal TWO wells, either or both of which might blow up.

726 webevintage  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:33:23pm

Man it has really been a shrill day today from the left.
One not so great speech and they are all freaking out.

I can't decide what I think about the no drilling for six months stuff or that berm thing.
20 billion is a nice start and that extra 100 million will help...right?

727 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:33:31pm

re: #712 windsagio

Isn't that where all this 'killing birds' stuff comes from or is that just another trumped up dealie?

I don't know. We do have wind power, not enough, obviously. I see the windmills out on the hills when I go east, all twirling away. I'm sure NIMBYs are a problem as they are anywhere, but in my daily life I'm not aware of any organized or significant objection to wind power.

But I'm not much of an energy wonk, so I may have no clue.

728 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:33:47pm
Youtube Video
729 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:34:08pm

re: #720 Bagua

Windmills Are Killing Our Birds

"Our" birds?

I thought the whole "ownership" thing was baddy-bad in the eyes of radical Greeners.

Behold, the hardships of being green!

730 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:34:37pm

re: #720 Bagua

Windmills Are Killing Our Birds

A July 2008 study of the wind farm at Altamont Pass, Calif., estimated that its turbines kill an average of 80 golden eagles per year. The study, funded by the Alameda County Community Development Agency, also estimated that about 10,000 birds—nearly all protected by the migratory bird act—are being whacked every year at Altamont.

Altamont's turbines, located about 30 miles east of Oakland, Calif., kill more than 100 times as many birds as Exxon's tanks, and they do so every year. But the Altamont Pass wind farm does not face the same threat of prosecution, even though the bird kills at Altamont have been repeatedly documented by biologists since the mid-1990s.

The Wall Street Journal? I thought it was crazed tree-huggers that were upset about the burds.

731 lostlakehiker  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:34:39pm

re: #668 CuriousLurker

I know you guys have moved on to other topics already, but after reading this thread something kept nagging at the back of my mind. I just remembered what it was: the Paliban. Yes, Paliban as in Taliban. A snippet from their About Us page:

We've received comment from a handful of folks that our name, Paliban, is offensive to them. They say that we sound "just like those fundamentalists in Afghanistan" and wonder if we're trying to compare ourselves to them.

The answer?

While we do not agree with the Taliban's Jesus-hating religious choice, we do agree with them on an important point: God's Law is written in the Bible*, and we should follow ALL of it.

ALL of it means ALL, not just the bits we happen to like or find convenient! That means outlawing adultery, divorce, homosexuality, working on the Sabbath, wearing of blended fabrics, and polyculture, among other things!

I'm not going to link directly to this bad craziness, but here's the Google cache for their home page. If anyone still thinks that these people (they are Dominionists) are less of a danger than radical Islamists, then you might want to rethink things. Be sure you check out the political bumper sticker looking banner at the bottom of their home page about keeping America safe from witches.

They're just lunatic fringe? Yeah, for now. But then things we thought were fringe a year or two ago seem to be becoming mainstream now.

I have to get away from this stuff now because the veins in my forehead are starting to throb, so please forgive me for not sticking around for comments/debate.

They're much less of a danger because they're a tiny fraction of the population rather than a significant fraction or even a majority as can be the case in some parts of the Islamic world.

When they kill 3000 Americans at a blow get back to me about how they're more dangerous.

732 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:35:14pm

re: #723 Dark_Falcon

No, its a bit bigger than that. I'd certainly include my family, and my gaming group as well. But you were just being funny, and I know that.

Of course I was. I wouldn't purposely insult you.

Sometimes my Aspergers makes me say stupid things, or rather, say things stupidly.

733 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:35:18pm

re: #721 ausador

It has to be in order to make the "POE" work doesn't it?

/

Indeed it does.

734 McSpiff  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:35:20pm

re: #705 Aceofwhat?

Yeah, fine. That's a fine plan. Demand your relief wells.

Again, that's wholly different than a moratorium. Make up your mind.

If Obama had said "thou shalt drill relief wells or suffer a moratorium for the next six months whilst we figure this out", i'd have hoisted my gin in his honor.

But nooo. Moratorium. So now it's Spiff's turn. Moratorium or no moratorium? (remember, drilling with preconditions ≠ moratorium)

Look buddy, you don't demand anything from me. Did I say the word moratorium on this or any other thread? No. I didn't.

I said BP shouldn't be allowed to operate because they've clearly shown themselves incompetent. I said no one else should be allowed to drill until they've shown a plan to deal with blow outs. The most logical one thus far is drilling relief wells before they're needed. If someone has a better alternative, I'd support that.

If that sounds like a moratorium to you, then I support a moratorium. If it doesn't, then I don't. I don't really care about political buzzwords, I care about good engineering.
re: #708 Aceofwhat?

And no. I'm trying to ask why you're so focused on better plans from the companies without so much as pausing to wonder how much coke it takes to get five MMS employees to screw in a toxic light bulb?

Because the regulators don't have a clue. We've all seen that very clearly from this disaster. Even if they fix whatever oversights allowed this to happen, there will be others.

Trusting that everyone will do their job right every single time just isn't good engineering. Its not a plan, its a prayer.

If you really wanna trust a bunch of bureaucrats to be 100% effective, be my guest. Those of us in the real world will plan for the most serious eventualities and develop ways to migrate the damage they cause. The best way to do that is to ensure that BP and Exxon and everyone else in the gulf has a plan to deal with blow outs, and the resources in place to put those plans into action quickly and efficiently should the need arise.

735 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:35:45pm

re: #729 Cato the Elder

"Our" birds?

I thought the whole "ownership" thing was baddy-bad in the eyes of radical Greeners.

Behold, the hardships of being green!

Bagua claims ownership of all winged creatures! This is not open for debate.

736 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:35:47pm

re: #720 Bagua

Sheesh. Is it just me or is the outcry over the threatened animal directly related to the perception of the weapon of choice?

Logging...bad, save the owls.
Exxon...bad, save the eagles.
Windmills...good...what eagles?

737 webevintage  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:36:21pm

re: #735 Bagua

Bagua claims ownership of all winged creatures! This is not open for debate.


Who will speak for the birds?

738 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:36:45pm

Yeah. Forget wind turbines. They kill birds and they don't turn a profit (yet). Might as well keep scarping up the coal with a monstrous bucket-wheel excavator to keep the coal fired power plants running.

Of course no one is saying that wind turbines will be the full answer to our energy need. Only a part of the future energy needs that can be sustained without turning our land and air into a sewer.

739 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:36:55pm

re: #729 Cato the Elder

"Our" birds?

I thought the whole "ownership" thing was baddy-bad in the eyes of radical Greeners.

Behold, the hardships of being green!

Cato, one does not have to be a greenie to not want the wildlife slaughtered.

740 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:37:05pm

re: #695 windsagio

A few people have said that... Is that really what you guys got out of this situation?

If so its funny, because the left is all up in arms that he's not really taking advantage of the situation at all.

I don't speak for anyone but myself. The thing in his oval office speech that made me believe that Obama was acting like a political opportunist was the perception that he was not really too worried about the massive numbers of layoffs and dislocations in the Gulf because the situation presented an opportunity for America to reduce its dependence on oil.

741 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:37:07pm

re: #735 Bagua

Bagua claims ownership of all winged creatures! This is not open for debate.

I'm down with that. Just please don't delete all the rats that wander into my back yard. Haku enjoys hunting 'em!

742 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:37:49pm

re: #736 Aceofwhat?

Sheesh. Is it just me or is the outcry over the threatened animal directly related to the perception of the weapon of choice?

Logging...bad, save the owls.
Exxon...bad, save the eagles.
Windmills...good...what eagles?

Yeah. Windmills. Such hypocrites aren't they? We should hale all wind farm plans now and face the facts that coal is our future.

743 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:38:11pm

re: #742 Gus 802

Yeah. Windmills. Such hypocrites aren't they? We should hale halt all wind farm plans now and face the facts that coal is our future.

744 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:38:12pm

re: #730 SanFranciscoZionist

The Wall Street Journal? I thought it was crazed tree-huggers that were upset about the burds.

Bird lovers are a very diverse group.

Below is from "a conservative lesbian.com"

Widmills kill birds but killing birds is only evil when oil does it

745 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:38:13pm

re: #732 b_sharp

Of course I was. I wouldn't purposely insult you.

Sometimes my Aspergers makes me say stupid things, or rather, say things stupidly.

You did not say anything badly. It sounded like you were kidding.

746 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:38:27pm

re: #730 SanFranciscoZionist

The Wall Street Journal? I thought it was crazed tree-huggers that were upset about the burds.

Only when trees fall in the woods!

(happy thread awesome dance in progress...)

747 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:38:28pm

re: #736 Aceofwhat?

A lot of people that really shouldn't tend to talk about the logging thing, which is largely a regional issue.

The owls were only the very tip of the issue here, and it was absolutely correct to protect the old-growth.

Farm or second-growth logging is more than fine for anything except for excess profits.

748 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:39:15pm

re: #737 webevintage

Who will speak for the birds?

Bagua will. I love birds.

749 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:39:53pm

re: #730 SanFranciscoZionist

You know how it is; instincitvely against alternatives to oil, so they have to use whatever to try to slam it. If they have (silly) allies on the other side, all the better.

750 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:39:56pm

re: #744 Bagua

Bird lovers are a very diverse group.

Below is from "a conservative lesbian.com"

Widmills kill birds but killing birds is only evil when oil does it

Uh, you just linked to an LGF hater site.

751 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:40:22pm

re: #737 webevintage

Lol, lorax.

752 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:41:00pm

re: #750 Gus 802

Uh, you just linked to an LGF hater site.


Good gosh. Please delete!

753 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:41:02pm

re: #741 Cato the Elder

I'm down with that. Just please don't delete all the rats that wander into my back yard. Haku enjoys hunting 'em!

This could be related to his middle of the night indigestion, No?

754 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:41:32pm

re: #752 Bagua

Good gosh. Please delete!

Yeah, well, Cynthia Yockey is an idiot wingnut times 144.

755 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:41:33pm

re: #742 Gus 802

Yeah. Windmills. Such hypocrites aren't they? We should hale all wind farm plans now and face the facts that coal is our future.

Screw coal, there are still a lot of trees left that have yet to be cut down and burned! Burn the trees not the fossils!

/

756 webevintage  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:41:41pm

re: #748 Bagua

Bagua will. I love birds.

My cats love birds too....
They are always sitting under the feeders just staring at the pretty birds.

(Am I the only one with cats stupid enough to think they could catch a hummingbird?)

757 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:42:10pm

re: #744 Bagua

Bird lovers are a very diverse group.

Below is from "a conservative lesbian.com"

Widmills kill birds but killing birds is only evil when oil does it

Um, sure.

Excuse me, but I have a little whiplash here from going from 'the environmentalists won't allow windfarms because they love the birdies', to 'the environmentalists are pushing windfarms even though it hurts the birdies'.

Will someone explain to me, in simple terms, why the environmentalists are evil and stupid in regards to wind energy? Is it because they are for it or because they are agin it?

758 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:42:18pm

re: #755 ausador

Screw coal, there are still a lot of trees left that have yet to be cut down and burned! Burn the trees not the fossils!

/

Oil is green energy!

Tobacco doesn't cause cancer!

759 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:42:44pm

re: #754 Gus 802

Yeah, well, Cynthia Yockey is an idiot wingnut times 144.

Just a quick google mate.

760 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:42:44pm

re: #734 McSpiff

Look buddy, you don't demand anything from me. Did I say the word moratorium on this or any other thread? No. I didn't.

re: #674 McSpiff

. Since no one else has had any bright ideas how to stop this within several months, I support a moratorium on drilling until the industry figures out a way to deal with this type of situation within a timely manner.

Are you wasting my time on purpose, or is it just a little too far past your bedtime?

761 webevintage  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:42:50pm

Locked in the terrifying White Chamber — no windows, and no doors! — with an emotionless, ice-blooded Obama. That was the fate of BP Chairman Carl-Henric Svanberg today. It was hard to tell if he’d been crying or if he’s just got a terrible accent, when he was whimpering that latest apology to America today. No way to confirm that Rahm Emanuel stomped on his nuts for two hours, while wearing golf cleats, or that Svanberg hobbled out wearing an inch-thick diaper of Saran Wrap under his pants.

[Link: wonkette.com...]

762 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:43:07pm

re: #318 SanFranciscoZionist
We're a lot more tolerant of radical islam. In Australia, muslims are told to get out if they want to practice the principles of Sharia, and mosques and schools are monitored by the government with no excuses. Persons deemed radical are often deported, and imams who foment against the government are kicked out, not invited to breakfast with the PM.
Also, children born to foreigners in Australia are not granted automatic citizenship.
So in the common sense department, they have it all over us./

763 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:43:08pm

re: #759 Bagua

Just a quick google mate.

Here's one.

764 Mocking Jay  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:43:27pm

re: #741 Cato the Elder

I'm down with that. Just please don't delete all the rats that wander into my back yard. Haku enjoys hunting 'em!

How's Haku, by the way? You mentioned he didn't seem well the other day.

765 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:43:29pm

re: #757 SanFranciscoZionist

They do both, as convenient. Remember, environmentalists are actually a monolithic evil force opposed to progress and industry!

766 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:43:44pm

re: #747 windsagio

A lot of people that really shouldn't tend to talk about the logging thing, which is largely a regional issue.

The owls were only the very tip of the issue here, and it was absolutely correct to protect the old-growth.

Farm or second-growth logging is more than fine for anything except for excess profits.

Yeah, i'm fully with you on the old growth. Pardon the convenient reach?

767 webevintage  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:44:15pm

re: #765 windsagio

They do both, as convenient. Remember, environmentalists are actually a monolithic evil force opposed to progress and industry!

Sarah said it was their fault the gulf coast disaster happened.

768 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:44:29pm

re: #757 SanFranciscoZionist

Um, sure.

Excuse me, but I have a little whiplash here from going from 'the environmentalists won't allow windfarms because they love the birdies', to 'the environmentalists are pushing windfarms even though it hurts the birdies'.

Will someone explain to me, in simple terms, why the environmentalists are evil and stupid in regards to wind energy? Is it because they are for it or because they are agin it?

It is mostly the delusion of wishful thinking. When one is in love, the tendency is to see only beauty, not warts.

769 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:44:59pm

re: #699 Cato the Elder

Reine, thank you for the gracious answer.

I do not make it a practice to dance on graves (Pat Buchanan's, may he live and prosper, excepted), nor to rejoice at people's misfortunes.

And again, I do not accept the moratorium at face value. More to the point: I think it is highly hypocritical of car-driving, heating-oil-burning Americans to think that they can solve the problem of our oil-based economy by pointing fingers and "boycotting" petroleum products by avoiding Exxon or BP stations. Poor fools. Oil is fungible, and though you may tank at the local cheap station, the gas you burn to take your kid to soccer practice may still contain a significant percentage of oil recovered from Exxon and BP.

Hell, I drive a Lincoln, and make no apologies.

I do, however, think that if a complete disaster like this one cannot be used to start a full-on Manhattan Project for oil replacement and independence, then we are truly screwed. And I and other Obama supporters were deeply disappointed that he did not have anything to offer along those lines last night.

I agree alternatives are needed. But they are not yet available, and what do we do in the meantime?

I was just listening to an interview Anderson Cooper did with Billy Nungesser of Plaquemines Parish. They have a wind-farm sort of thing they've been trying to get going; but they cannot get the grant money in a timely way, to really proceed with this thing.

We will continue to need oil; the scene is set now for us to become even more dependent on imports, rather than domestically produced oil.

So, we take a bump at the pump, no biggie. We also will see hikes in everything that you need to buy that has to be trucked to locations across this country.

Other items we use that are made from petroleum byproduct:
credit cards, American Flags, golf balls, hairspray, shampoo, shaving cream, crayons, tires, disposable diapers, food wraps, telephones, paints, vinyl siding, deodorant, pantyhose, candles, hand lotion, syringes, garden hoses ,eyeglasses, hair dryers, brake fluid, glue, air mattresses, nail polish, bandages and the list goes on and on.

We'll pay more for everything. Not just folks in Louisiana; all of us.

770 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:45:20pm

re: #766 Aceofwhat?

Haha sorry, its just a pet peeve. Its a BIG DEAL up here, even now, and the spotted owl thing has been misusedd by pundits for like a decade now >>

771 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:45:26pm

re: #722 Cato the Elder

Entirely understandable, given the existence of the Westboro Baptist Church, Atlas Shrieks, and others of that ilk.

And the very real rapture, exorcism, witch hunting stuff and all that. Extremism is ugly & dangerous no matter what ideology or theology it wraps itself in.

You might want to write to the Paliban and confess how you were taken in, though. I'm sure they'd get a kick out of it.

Good idea; I might just do that.

772 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:45:35pm

re: #763 Gus 802

Here's one.

No one can defeat your Google-fu!

773 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:46:03pm

re: #714 windsagio
Oh, glad you found it.
The GIGO factor of google both amazes and frightens me, by turns.

774 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:46:15pm

re: #772 Bagua

No one can defeat your Google-fu!

Well, I remembered that website from not so long ago. I had to find that just now.

775 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:47:16pm
Mortality source Annual mortality estimate Percent composition

Buildings1 550 million 58.2 percent
Power lines2 130 million 13.7 percent
Cats3 100 million 10.6 percent
Automobiles4 80 million 8.5 percent
Pesticides5 67 million 7.1 percent
Communications towers6 4.5 million 0.5 percent
Wind turbines7 28.5 thousand

776 McSpiff  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:48:14pm

re: #760 Aceofwhat?

Sorry, I forgot I had used it there. Honest mistake. Summarize in a sentence to get the time back for you:

If a company can have a plan submitted today, get them out there drilling tomorrow. If they can't ever come up with a valid plan, they should never drill in the gulf again.

So by default, no one is allowed to drill. If they meet the criteria, they should be allowed to drill immediately. Hell, drill relief wells simultaneously with production wells if that speeds the process up.

I only want to see drilling stopped until it can be safely started again, and not a second longer.

777 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:48:19pm

re: #775 Gus 802

Live in the trees!

779 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:49:09pm

re: #777 Bagua

Live in the trees!

Save the pill bugs!

780 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:50:09pm

re: #744 Bagua

Bird lovers are a very diverse group.

Below is from "a conservative lesbian.com"

Widmills kill birds but killing birds is only evil when oil does it

Oil gives us several problems, including killing birds and adding CO2 and other pollutants to the atmosphere. Wind mills give us fewer problems, even if killing birds is one of them.

Killing birds is evil in both cases, but coming up with solutions for that evil in the case of windmills seems easier than with oil. A change in placement can mitigate the problem, as can changes in size. Large windmill farms consisting of giant structures is hopefully a temporary energy source on the way to more ubiquitous rooftop windmills.

781 lostlakehiker  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:50:25pm

re: #720 Bagua

Windmills Are Killing Our Birds

A July 2008 study of the wind farm at Altamont Pass, Calif., estimated that its turbines kill an average of 80 golden eagles per year. The study, funded by the Alameda County Community Development Agency, also estimated that about 10,000 birds—nearly all protected by the migratory bird act—are being whacked every year at Altamont.

Altamont's turbines, located about 30 miles east of Oakland, Calif., kill more than 100 times as many birds as Exxon's tanks, and they do so every year. But the Altamont Pass wind farm does not face the same threat of prosecution, even though the bird kills at Altamont have been repeatedly documented by biologists since the mid-1990s.

Altamont is badly sited. No other wind power farm kills remotely so many charismatic birds. And even so, we are better off with dead birds and a live planet than the other way around.

782 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:51:18pm

re: #757 SanFranciscoZionist

Um, sure.

Excuse me, but I have a little whiplash here from going from 'the environmentalists won't allow windfarms because they love the birdies', to 'the environmentalists are pushing windfarms even though it hurts the birdies'.

Will someone explain to me, in simple terms, why the environmentalists are evil and stupid in regards to wind energy? Is it because they are for it or because they are agin it?

I'll take this one, because on this topic, with apologies to Sir Winston, environmentalists have all the virtues i dislike and none of the vices i admire.

To wit: saving wildlife would actually be a valid opposition to wind power. It seems (and perhaps this is nothing more than poor perception on my part) that this noble cause is only employed in the hunt for more devilish prey, whereas actual opposition to wind power seems (again, i admit perception and not data) highly related to the beauty of the vista about to be ruined...

When they're for it, wildlife be damned...when they're agin it, they don't seem to be able to summon the bile reserved for the typical capitalist pig spawn of...well, you see where i'm going here;)

They're like C

783 webevintage  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:51:44pm

re: #780 b_sharp

Large windmill farms consisting of giant structures is hopefully a temporary energy source on the way to more ubiquitous rooftop windmills.


I need me a rooftop windmill....

784 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:51:45pm

re: #771 CuriousLurker

Good idea; I might just do that.

If you want to find links to some real sites along those lines you should check out FSTDT from time to time. Or better yet just read their monthly "quotes page".

[Link: www.fstdt.net...]

/"Fundies (really do) Say The Darndest Things, quite often in fact...

785 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:52:05pm

re: #734 McSpiff

The government writes the regulations and enforces them. That is their job. They need to write tougher safety regulations and carry out better enforcement.

786 Macha  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:52:05pm

re: #634 Aceofwhat?

I got that and I concur.

787 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:52:40pm

re: #780 b_sharp

Oil gives us several problems, including killing birds and adding CO2 and other pollutants to the atmosphere. Wind mills give us fewer problems, even if killing birds is one of them.

Killing birds is evil in both cases, but coming up with solutions for that evil in the case of windmills seems easier than with oil. A change in placement can mitigate the problem, as can changes in size. Large windmill farms consisting of giant structures is hopefully a temporary energy source on the way to more ubiquitous rooftop windmills.

Only, windmills doe not replace oil.

788 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:52:53pm

re: #779 Gus 802

Save the pill bugs!

Breed smarter cockroaches for a brighter tomorrow!

789 webevintage  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:53:09pm

So buildings kill more birds then cats?

790 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:53:15pm

re: #787 Bagua

Only, windmills doe not replace oil.

Only if they're used to charge electric vehicles.

791 McSpiff  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:53:41pm

re: #785 Spare O'Lake

The government writes the regulations and enforces them. That is their job. They need to write tougher safety regulations and carry out better enforcement.

This is all true. However, any system that depends on people doing the right thing every time will eventually fail. And we need to do our best to plan for those failures.

792 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:53:53pm

re: #789 webevintage

So buildings kill more birds then cats?

Yep. 5.5 to 1.

793 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:54:08pm

re: #783 webevintage

I need me a rooftop windmill...

It's what EVERY Home Owners Association DREAMS about !!

Image: farm-ranch-small-wind-turbines-sm.jpg
/

794 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:54:18pm

re: #780 b_sharp

Oil gives us several problems, including killing birds and adding CO2 and other pollutants to the atmosphere. Wind mills give us fewer problems, even if killing birds is one of them.

Killing birds is evil in both cases, but coming up with solutions for that evil in the case of windmills seems easier than with oil. A change in placement can mitigate the problem, as can changes in size. Large windmill farms consisting of giant structures is hopefully a temporary energy source on the way to more ubiquitous rooftop windmills.

Windmills also give us a tiny fraction of the power, at an exorbitant cost. It is not now and never will be a viable source for the kind of power civilization requires to run on. There simply is nothing but oil, gas, coal and some water powered turbines. We have nuclear, but no one is willing to implement it.

795 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:54:30pm

Must be a lot of busy cats out there.

796 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:54:51pm

re: #782 Aceofwhat?

I'll take this one, because on this topic, with apologies to Sir Winston, environmentalists have all the virtues i dislike and none of the vices i admire.

To wit: saving wildlife would actually be a valid opposition to wind power. It seems (and perhaps this is nothing more than poor perception on my part) that this noble cause is only employed in the hunt for more devilish prey, whereas actual opposition to wind power seems (again, i admit perception and not data) highly related to the beauty of the vista about to be ruined...

When they're for it, wildlife be damned...when they're agin it, they don't seem to be able to summon the bile reserved for the typical capitalist pig spawn of...well, you see where i'm going here;)

They're like C

Once again, I'll take your word for it, since as I commented, I actually never see objections to wind power from 'environmentalists', I only see people here telling me that environmentalists are against wind power. Or for it, and equally bad for that.

This seems like an argument in which the only point being made is that environmentalists are stooopid. It doesn't seem to matter who's actually for or against any particular plan or energy source. Eh, OK.

797 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:55:02pm

re: #753 CapeCoddah

This could be related to his middle of the night indigestion, No?

He don't eat 'em, he just kills 'em.

798 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:55:10pm

re: #770 windsagio

Haha sorry, its just a pet peeve. Its a BIG DEAL up here, even now, and the spotted owl thing has been misusedd by pundits for like a decade now >>

Shhh, don't tell anyone, but my moderate Republican dad just sold a bunch of his pristine Ohio woodsland to the State for preservation...when i was up there this week, we helped them plant a field full of native prairie and meadow grasses. They've already started planting trees in some other areas.

We're that brand of republican...

799 webevintage  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:55:10pm

re: #793 sattv4u2

It's what EVERY Home Owners Association DREAMS about !!

Image: farm-ranch-small-wind-turbines-sm.jpg
/

Those are awesome!
whop whop whop whop

800 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:55:58pm

re: #790 Gus 802

Only if they're used to charge electric vehicles.

Right, which is several decades away at best. It is a delusion at the present time which distracts from things which actually help reduce oil consumption. It is all based upon smoke and mirrors, like the claim that Denmark generates 20% of its electricity demand.

801 Obdicut  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:56:10pm

re: #684 Aceofwhat?

This post made no sense.

802 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:56:23pm

re: #789 webevintage

So buildings kill more birds then cats?

*snort*
my cats are so stupid - not a one of them could catch and kill a bird.
They sit still in one place and hope the bird walks up to them. LOL.
Which of course the bird does not do, because the birds are actually smart.

803 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:56:48pm

re: #799 webevintage

Those are awesome!
whop whop whop whop

"Honey ,, whats that noise? It's 3 a.m."

"Oh,, thats just George next door. He's making toast and needs some electricity. Try to go back to sleep"

804 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:57:07pm

re: #797 Cato the Elder

He don't eat 'em, he just kills 'em.

Thats good, but they are still filthy, nasty, disease carrying critters.
Enough that killing one would give anyone indigestion if one has to kill them the way Haku has to!

805 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:57:30pm

re: #801 Obdicut

This post made no sense.

I understood it. Need a Cliff Notes Version!?!?

806 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:57:33pm

re: #787 Bagua

Only, windmills doe not replace oil.

is that the fourth time you've had to say that in this thread, or the fifth time?

i mean, it was true the first time...but it's not sinking in...

807 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:57:40pm

re: #731 lostlakehiker

They're much less of a danger because they're a tiny fraction of the population rather than a significant fraction or even a majority as can be the case in some parts of the Islamic world.

When they kill 3000 Americans at a blow get back to me about how they're more dangerous.

How about I get back to you when start seeing Islamists getting close to the levers of power in this country and stop hearing about people like Newt Gingrich & Sarah Palin having ties to Dominionists?

808 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:57:46pm

re: #794 CapeCoddah

Windmills also give us a tiny fraction of the power, at an exorbitant cost. It is not now and never will be a viable source for the kind of power civilization requires to run on. There simply is nothing but oil, gas, coal and some water powered turbines. We have nuclear, but no one is willing to implement it.

Not really. The optimistic projection is 20 percent wind turbine electrical energy. My cynical projection would therefore be around 10 percent. That's a rather significant contribution to begin with.

809 webevintage  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:58:09pm

re: #802 reine.de.tout

*snort*
my cats are so stupid - not a one of them could catch and kill a bird.

Yeah, I know the feeling our cats are not very smart either.
Of course they have us feeding and petting them so.....

810 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:59:10pm

re: #803 sattv4u2

"Honey ,, whats that noise? It's 3 a.m."

"Oh,, thats just George next door. He's making toast and needs some electricity. Try to go back to sleep"

We had a guy next door once who had what I swear was a diesel-powered juicer. He liked to juice stuff for breakfast. He actually came over once to ask if the juicer was bothering us.

Of course, we also had a group of Muslim college kids next door once who got observant at Ramadan. I would wander into the kitchen at five in the morning and hear them clattering around, praying and eating at the crack of dawn.

And then there was the couple with the grandfather clock...

811 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:59:15pm

re: #799 webevintage

Those are awesome!
whop whop whop whop

They will lull you right to sleep just like a train riding over the joints in the tracks...once you get used to it, no problem. ;)

812 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:59:41pm

re: #765 windsagio
Really, who is not an environmentalist?
Who wants to wheeze in dirty air?
Who wants to fall ill from polluted water?
Who has decided that they really don't ever need to see a tree again?
Who becomes nauseous at the sound of a songbird?
Who wishes there were no unspoiled campgrounds when a landfill is so much more useful?
Who pulls up to the pump and thinks ' Yippee, time to donate to the House of Saud '.

813 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:59:48pm

I will say thought that you can't force wind power into the market. But it will happen eventually and it will provide a significant contribution over the course of the next 50 years.

814 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:59:57pm

re: #784 ausador

If you want to find links to some real sites along those lines you should check out FSTDT from time to time. Or better yet just read their monthly "quotes page".

Interesting. Thanks.

815 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 9:59:58pm

re: #798 Aceofwhat?

You always struck me as a reasonable guy.

816 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:00:28pm

re: #812 tradewind

All true enough, you know what I mean tho'.

817 lostlakehiker  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:00:32pm

re: #750 Gus 802

Uh, you just linked to an LGF hater site.

But my biggest problem with “wind energy” has been my common sense intuition that windmills create powerful vortices that kill thousands of birds and insects, or, almost as bad, disorient them. I do not have research yet confirming my intuition about the insects, but I hope it is being done because we depend on bees to pollinate our crops and gardens. Threatening or destroying bees is tantamount to suicide as a society.


Sappho had more on the ball than this dame. The world teeters on the brink, and she's fretting about whether windmills are going to disorient bees.

818 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:00:46pm

re: #801 Obdicut

This post made no sense.

Actually, i'm sort of flattered that i made it to 684 before i went off the rails...

Sweeter version:

No explosions > better response plan to explosion.

Go ahead and demand better response plans. In the meantime, let people do their jobs, only spend a few of the million$ from the new escrow fund on hypervigilance and saying "no" on occasion to special requests.

No explosions. I'll bet the farm on it.

819 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:01:15pm

re: #802 reine.de.tout

*snort*
my cats are so stupid - not a one of them could catch and kill a bird.
They sit still in one place and hope the bird walks up to them. LOL.
Which of course the bird does not do, because the birds are actually smart.

Had a cat when I was a kid/ teenager that used to kill Blue Jays and leave it by the side of my bed several times a week. Thats what I got for wanting the basement bedroom. No one ever saw him come in the cat door in the basement entrance. I do not miss that. It is why we only have dogs. One of my dogs finally caught a squirrel after several years of trying. She found a dead one, stiff as a board, and brought it proudly home.

820 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:01:20pm

re: #796 SanFranciscoZionist

Once again, I'll take your word for it, since as I commented, I actually never see objections to wind power from 'environmentalists', I only see people here telling me that environmentalists are against wind power. Or for it, and equally bad for that.

This seems like an argument in which the only point being made is that environmentalists are stooopid. It doesn't seem to matter who's actually for or against any particular plan or energy source. Eh, OK.

Environmentalists appear to be wind's biggest enemy

Environmentalists in a Clash of Goals

Windmills Sow Dissent For Environmentalists

821 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:01:31pm

re: #809 webevintage

Yeah, I know the feeling our cats are not very smart either.
Of course they have us feeding and petting them so...

One of my friends owns a cat that is unusually dim even by the general run of cats.

She once bought of one of those electric mats that shocks the kitty's feet so they learn not to go where they're not supposed to.

The other kitty got it right away.

Not-so-bright kitty stood on the mat, being shocked over and over, and complained. Yowled.

Zzzp!
"Ma! MY FEET HURT!"
Zzzzp!
"MA! MY FEET HURT!"
Zzzzp!
"DAMN IT! MY FEET HURT!"

822 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:01:54pm

re: #795 Gus 802
And a couple of them camp out under my birdbath every morning.
But I'm learning their patterns, and I'm going to treat their owners to complimentary collars, with bells.

823 webevintage  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:01:59pm

re: #809 webevintage

Yeah, I know the feeling our cats are not very smart either.
Of course they have us feeding and petting them so...

I have one in my face right now demanding that I give skritches right now or there will be hell to pay.
Stupid evil...awwww pretty kittah....

824 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:02:10pm

re: #808 Gus 802

Not really. The optimistic projection is 20 percent wind turbine electrical energy. My cynical projection would therefore be around 10 percent. That's a rather significant contribution to begin with.

When the wind is blowing, Maybe 10%. But, that is a stretch.

825 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:02:33pm

re: #818 Aceofwhat?

Problem is, that's not terribly realistic. There'll alwyas be corruption, and eventually we'll get another Reagan or Bush in office and it'll all start over.

Government has a hard enough time regulating without there being a huge % of the populace that have been convinced that regulation is in of itself bad.

826 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:03:07pm

re: #806 Aceofwhat?

is that the fourth time you've had to say that in this thread, or the fifth time?

i mean, it was true the first time...but it's not sinking in...

Who's counting? Until the reality sinks in, it bears repeating.

827 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:03:15pm

re: #824 CapeCoddah

In the places that are actually worth building a windfarm, the its just about always blowing tho' :p

828 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:04:08pm

re: #821 SanFranciscoZionist

One of my friends owns a cat that is unusually dim even by the general run of cats.

She once bought of one of those electric mats that shocks the kitty's feet so they learn not to go where they're not supposed to.

The other kitty got it right away.

Not-so-bright kitty stood on the mat, being shocked over and over, and complained. Yowled.

Zzzp!
"Ma! MY FEET HURT!"
Zzzzp!
"MA! MY FEET HURT!"
Zzzzp!
"DAMN IT! MY FEET HURT!"

We got one of those electronic underground "fences" for our dog, and put the collar on him.

He got zapped once.

The next time we put the collar on him - he stood stock still and just trembled. Would. Not. Move. An. Inch.

He couldn't figure out where the boundaries were, as most dogs do. He just would not move at all.

We felt sorry for him, took the collar off and never used it again.

829 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:04:20pm

re: #801 Obdicut

This post made no sense.

Perhaps one of you has had too much alcohol and it is causing issues in comprehension?
If you can say;
"Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers"
three times quickly without garbling the pronunciation then it isn't you...

/ j/k

830 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:04:56pm

re: #806 Aceofwhat?

They're sure a piece of the puzzle tho', and they're also the subject at hand.

Everyone knows that it'll take a combination of technologies to marginalize oil. I don't see anyone on this thread implying otherwise.

Just saying 'wind doesn't replace oil', while technically true, is essentially meaningless as well.

831 McSpiff  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:05:22pm

re: #818 Aceofwhat?

Actually, i'm sort of flattered that i made it to 684 before i went off the rails...

Sweeter version:

No explosions > better response plan to explosion.

Go ahead and demand better response plans. In the meantime, let people do their jobs, only spend a few of the million$ from the new escrow fund on hypervigilance and saying "no" on occasion to special requests.

No explosions. I'll bet the farm on it.

Would you have said the same thing the day before Deep Horizon?

832 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:05:36pm

re: #824 CapeCoddah

When the wind is blowing, Maybe 10%. But, that is a stretch.

Offshore wind farms, West Texas, etc. They would have to be located in areas with sustained prevailing winds. It can be done. Don't forget you can also incorporate Compressed-air energy storage with wind plants.

833 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:06:44pm

re: #832 Gus 802

Offshore wind farms, West Texas, etc. They would have to be located in areas with sustained prevailing winds. It can be done. Don't forget you can also incorporate Compressed-air energy storage with wind plants.

What percentage of Denmark's electrical demand is satisfied by wind?

834 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:06:44pm

re: #825 windsagio

Problem is, that's not terribly realistic. There'll alwyas be corruption, and eventually we'll get another Reagan or Bush in office and it'll all start over.

Government has a hard enough time regulating without there being a huge % of the populace that have been convinced that regulation is in of itself bad.

Yeah, it's the republicans' fault.

Moving past that first paragraph, note that i mention it's a short-term thing. If the caterwauling from McSpiff et al. is about the lack of a "plan", and good people can't work because we don't like the "plan", then surely for six months our lovely government, to whom we entrust our individual health care in some cases, can bend the oil rigs over for a little mooon riverrr, right?

835 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:06:45pm

re: #832 Gus 802

They're just about to start some major tidal power off the OR coast too, altho' there are some serious issues with that still.

836 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:06:48pm

Well, I'm out.

CATO, of course I know (and knew) that you're not "the enemy". We've had a heated discussion, it happens sometimes. I even have those sorts of heated discussions with the people who are closest to me, and we manage to continue to adore each other.

Everyone else, goodnight, and I hope everyone has a great evening.

837 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:07:16pm

re: #826 Bagua

Who's counting? Until the reality sinks in, it bears repeating.

that's why i quoted it!

838 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:07:40pm

re: #834 Aceofwhat?

Ace, you have to acknowledge that when the people in charge are philosophically opposed to regulation, its tough on regulation.

Its just true.

839 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:07:44pm

re: #787 Bagua

Only, windmills doe not replace oil.

No, not yet. They never will if we don't start funding research and manufacturing in a big way. However, cost effective oil will run out, as will natural gas. Coal supplies are much larger and easier to access, and I believe, but I could be wrong I'm operating on memory here, some of the materials we make from oil, such as plastics, can be made using extracts from coal.

Windmills are only one aspect of our future power supply, not the total and we need to change most of the technology that currently burns oil to electrical.

840 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:08:02pm

re: #833 Bagua

What percentage of Denmark's electrical demand is satisfied by wind?

What is the air speed of an African Swallow?

841 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:08:24pm

re: #820 Bagua

Environmentalists appear to be wind's biggest enemy

Environmentalists in a Clash of Goals

Windmills Sow Dissent For Environmentalists

Well, they certainly seem to have allies at the WSJ. Perhaps this issue is a uniter.

But do you see the disconnect between the pieces you're posting?

842 McSpiff  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:08:29pm

re: #834 Aceofwhat?

Yeah, it's the republicans' fault.

Moving past that first paragraph, note that i mention it's a short-term thing. If the caterwauling from McSpiff et al. is about the lack of a "plan", and good people can't work because we don't like the "plan", then surely for six months our lovely government, to whom we entrust our individual health care in some cases, can bend the oil rigs over for a little mooon riverrr, right?

At this point, I'm fairly sure you've been drinking.

843 webevintage  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:08:30pm

Midnight.
Night all....

844 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:08:34pm

re: #825 windsagio

There'll alwyas be corruption, and eventually we'll get another Reagan or Bush in office and it'll all start over.


Thank heavens that Change swept through the Oval Office like an avenging angel , washing it clean of cronyism, old-style politics, and the corrupting influence of patronage.
Oh wait/.

845 Obdicut  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:08:41pm

re: #818 Aceofwhat?

You don't have a farm to bet. If you did, it wouldn't pay for if you were wrong about this.

The fact that other companies have a great safety record is absolutely wonderful. But it doesn't mean that some company can't be acquired by, say, the kind of shits that run Massey.

This failure has not only revealed that some companies will cut corners and cause disasters, but also that the supposed plan to fix this disaster did not exist. It doesn't seem to actually exist for any other company, either. That is deeply troubling to me, as even the most competent people will eventually fuck up, a perfect storm of problems will always arise, over time.

So I agree that first and foremost we need to actually validate the response plans of other companies.

846 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:08:45pm

re: #832 Gus 802

Offshore wind farms, West Texas, etc. They would have to be located in areas with sustained prevailing winds. It can be done. Don't forget you can also incorporate Compressed-air energy storage with wind plants.

Solar > wind

847 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:08:54pm

re: #833 Bagua

What percentage of Denmark's electrical demand is satisfied by wind?

19.7 percent.

848 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:09:29pm

re: #844 tradewind

See my 838.

849 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:09:30pm

re: #839 b_sharp

No, not yet. They never will if we don't start funding research and manufacturing in a big way. However, cost effective oil will run out, as will natural gas. Coal supplies are much larger and easier to access, and I believe, but I could be wrong I'm operating on memory here, some of the materials we make from oil, such as plastics, can be made using extracts from coal.

Windmills are only one aspect of our future power supply, not the total and we need to change most of the technology that currently burns oil to electrical.

You are missing the point. They never will period. Only 1% of US electricity is generated from oil. It is insignificant.

850 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:09:40pm

re: #847 Gus 802

19.7 percent.



Wind power provided 19.7 percent of electricity production and 24.1% of capacity in Denmark in 2007, a significantly higher proportion than in any other country. Denmark was a pioneer in developing commercial wind power during the 1970s, and today almost half of the wind turbines around the world are produced by Danish manufacturers such as Vestas.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

851 Obdicut  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:09:54pm

re: #834 Aceofwhat?

What the fuck? Why did I bother typing out a reasonable post to you if this is the kind of thing you're going to be writing?

852 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:10:15pm

re: #799 webevintage

Those are awesome!
whop whop whop whop

I don't think they do whop.

853 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:10:29pm

re: #845 Obdicut

You don't have a farm to bet. If you did, it wouldn't pay for if you were wrong about this

downdinged for
A) assuming he doesn't have a farm
and
B) calling into question his character (i.e. not paying on a bet)

854 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:11:01pm

re: #841 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, they certainly seem to have allies at the WSJ. Perhaps this issue is a uniter.

But do you see the disconnect between the pieces you're posting?

You're not reading teacher, two of those links were from the NYtimes, the other from a Colorado paper.

855 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:11:04pm

re: #838 windsagio

Ace, you have to acknowledge that when the people in charge are philosophically opposed to regulation, its tough on regulation.

Its just true.

The republicans are in charge of what, exactly?

856 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:11:05pm

re: #853 sattv4u2

It is the internet :p

857 Obdicut  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:11:05pm

re: #849 Bagua

You are missing the point. They never will period. Only 1% of US electricity is generated from oil. It is insignificant.

Why do you feel this is a telling point, though? This is why there's a push for electric vehicles; because so much of our oil is used on transportation costs.

Yes, there's nothing especially special about oil. Coal is just as bad. All the fossil fuels are. So what?

858 McSpiff  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:11:38pm

re: #845 Obdicut

You don't have a farm to bet. If you did, it wouldn't pay for if you were wrong about this.

The fact that other companies have a great safety record is absolutely wonderful. But it doesn't mean that some company can't be acquired by, say, the kind of shits that run Massey.

This failure has not only revealed that some companies will cut corners and cause disasters, but also that the supposed plan to fix this disaster did not exist. It doesn't seem to actually exist for any other company, either. That is deeply troubling to me, as even the most competent people will eventually fuck up, a perfect storm of problems will always arise, over time.

So I agree that first and foremost we need to actually validate the response plans of other companies.

No, its the government's fault because they passed healthcare reform and spend all our TAXES on COKE! TEAPARTY RAWR!

Seriously, this guy doesn't have a damn clue how the industry or the science behind it works. Google "Talking points" if you wanna read ahead.

859 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:11:38pm

re: #850 Gus 802


Wind power provided 19.7 percent of electricity production and 24.1% of capacity in Denmark in 2007, a significantly higher proportion than in any other country. Denmark was a pioneer in developing commercial wind power during the 1970s, and today almost half of the wind turbines around the world are produced by Danish manufacturers such as Vestas.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Also:

While wind power accounts for almost 20% of the electricity generated in Denmark, it covers only 10–14% of the country's consumption. Power in excess of immediate demand is exported to Germany, Norway, and Sweden.

860 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:11:54pm

re: #845 Obdicut

Hey, Obdi! I haven't crossed paths with you lately, but the other day I was catching up on some threads and noticed that you're getting married soon. I just wanted to say congratulations and I hope you and your beloved have a long & happy life together.

861 freetoken  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:12:19pm

re: #849 Bagua

You are missing the point. They never will period. Only 1% of US electricity is generated from oil. It is insignificant.

And you are overlooking the obvious.

Replacing any fossil fuel use with wind/solar allows that fossil fuel to be either not used or to be used differently.

E.g., instead of generating electricity with natural gas, use the natural gas for transportation.

Furthermore, changing transport to use electricity directly is an even better idea, albeit one that will take time.

In any case we need the electricity generation capability.

862 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:12:35pm

re: #855 Aceofwhat?

In fairness I've never said 'Republicans'.

Are you saying that "people philosophically opposed to regulation" have not on occasion been in control of the government? Even if they aren't now, that philosophy is hardly dead in the US.

863 Obdicut  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:12:47pm

re: #853 sattv4u2

You don't have a farm to bet. If you did, it wouldn't pay for if you were wrong about this

downdinged for
A) assuming he doesn't have a farm
and
B) calling into question his character (i.e. not paying on a bet)

I didn't question his character at all. I said it wouldn't pay for it.

I think Ace would probably have mentioned if he had a farm at some point. And I don't think he'd bet his entire net worth, either-- his wife would probably have a li'l something to say about that.

If you feel that turn of phrase is worth a downding, that's on you.

864 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:12:48pm

re: #858 McSpiff

No, its the government's fault because they passed healthcare reform and spend all our TAXES on COKE! TEAPARTY RAWR!

Seriously, this guy doesn't have a damn clue how the industry or the science behind it works. Google "Talking points" if you wanna read ahead.

Game over

You said SCIENCE so you automatically 'win"!!

866 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:13:14pm

re: #838 windsagio

Ace, you have to acknowledge that when the people in charge are philosophically opposed to regulation, its tough on regulation.

Its just true.


How can someone deny this? Oh well!

867 Obdicut  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:13:33pm

re: #860 CuriousLurker

Thanks. It's on Saturday. We just had the first full day of cake-baking and other food-making. It's been a blast, a very very stressful blast.

868 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:13:33pm

re: #853 sattv4u2

You don't have a farm to bet. If you did, it wouldn't pay for if you were wrong about this

downdinged for
A) assuming he doesn't have a farm
and
B) calling into question his character (i.e. not paying on a bet)

what are you even talking about

869 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:13:37pm

re: #857 Obdicut

Also, oil is used for other things than just electricity natch. A major goal seems to be getting our vehicles and stuff off of coal and onto the electrical grid.

870 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:14:25pm

re: #863 Obdicut

I didn't question his character at all. I said it wouldn't pay for it.

I think Ace would probably have mentioned if he had a farm at some point. And I don't think he'd bet his entire net worth, either-- his wife would probably have a li'l something to say about that.

If you feel that turn of phrase is worth a downding, that's on you.


How will I ever sleep!

871 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:14:29pm

re: #850 Gus 802


Wind power provided 19.7 percent of electricity production and 24.1% of capacity in Denmark in 2007, a significantly higher proportion than in any other country. Denmark was a pioneer in developing commercial wind power during the 1970s, and today almost half of the wind turbines around the world are produced by Danish manufacturers such as Vestas.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

From the identical Wiki page you link to.

While wind power accounts for almost 20% of the electricity generated in Denmark, it covers only 10–14% of the country's consumption. Power in excess of immediate demand is exported to Germany, Norway, and Sweden. The latter two have considerable hydropower resources, which can rapidly reduce their generation whenever wind farms are generating surplus power, saving water for later. In effect, this is a way for northern Europe to store wind power until it is needed – an opportunity which is not generally available for wind power generators in other regions.[14][15] The benefit of this goes to Denmark's neighbours; when Denmark's wind farms are exporting power, it is sold at the spot market price, which sometimes falls to near zero – or even lower.[16]

872 McSpiff  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:14:30pm

re: #864 sattv4u2

Game over

You said SCIENCE so you automatically 'win"!!

Na, I won when he his response to "the industry should have response plans that work" was "THE MMS DOES COKE". Thanks for keeping score though.

873 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:14:39pm

re: #832 Gus 802

Sure it can be done, until the next Katrina comes along, then the one after that. Then you have major shipping hazards in the form of lost wind turbines, blades and towers. You would have the loss of the oil inside the turbines...etc. Not to mention the maintenance and such require they be accessed by fossil fuel burning ships constantly. Did you catch my post the other night on the cost of the wind farm they are trying to build here on the Cape? Real numbers, contract signed. No speculation?

874 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:14:46pm

re: #866 WindUpBird

How can someone deny this? Oh well!

By confusing the terms I guess :)

875 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:15:07pm

re: #868 WindUpBird

what are you even talking about

You and Obdi ask that a LOT! (and not just of me!!)

876 Gus  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:15:20pm

God I can't take any more of this. I feel like I'm at a Luddite convention.

Later.

877 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:15:23pm

re: #840 Gus 802

What is the air speed of an African Swallow?

Now we're talking science!

878 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:16:08pm

re: #845 Obdicut

You don't have a farm to bet. If you did, it wouldn't pay for if you were wrong about this.

The fact that other companies have a great safety record is absolutely wonderful. But it doesn't mean that some company can't be acquired by, say, the kind of shits that run Massey.

This failure has not only revealed that some companies will cut corners and cause disasters, but also that the supposed plan to fix this disaster did not exist. It doesn't seem to actually exist for any other company, either. That is deeply troubling to me, as even the most competent people will eventually fuck up, a perfect storm of problems will always arise, over time.

So I agree that first and foremost we need to actually validate the response plans of other companies.

You're missing the point. They cut corners with the permission of our regulators. Let's not pretend as if this was some hidden series of darkly evil decisions.

Don't you understand? The plan is secondary. Primary is not having another boom. We can control that...by saying "no, you can't cut this corner".

Honestly, this is why half of the republican wing wants to wipe out entire governmental departments. Because an entire department will fuck up beyond all recognition and people act as if they were powerless to ever prevent X in the first place.

Well, if the regulators have no hope (paraphrasing Windy here), then why are we paying them again?

879 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:16:27pm

re: #872 McSpiff

Na, I won when he his response to "the industry should have response plans that work" was "THE MMS DOES COKE". Thanks for keeping score though.

n/p

and if you cared to read his entire post plus the context it was in reply too, you wouldn't be on the short end of that score

880 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:16:41pm

HEY WUB! SINCE YOU"RE NOT ANSWERING IMS BUT ARE HERE TEMPORARILY!

1) the second Gorillaz video for plastic beach is out, watch it.

2) whats the SP song that goes "HAHAHAHAHAHA! The joke's on... the corner of the square!"

881 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:17:24pm

re: #857 Obdicut

Why do you feel this is a telling point, though? This is why there's a push for electric vehicles; because so much of our oil is used on transportation costs.

Yes, there's nothing especially special about oil. Coal is just as bad. All the fossil fuels are. So what?

It's nice when folks get those little details right. Makes you feel like they might get other things right too, later in a discussion. I thought he was right to make the correction. If we're ZOMG LESS OIL, why are we talking about wind?

882 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:17:26pm

re: #875 sattv4u2

You and Obdi ask that a LOT! (and not just of me!!)

Well, I can't speak for Obdicut, but my problem is generally that a lot of breathtakingly stupid and uninformed stuff gets said here, and I'm taken aback by it

883 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:18:04pm

re: #882 WindUpBird

Well, I can't speak for Obdicut, but my problem is generally that a lot of breathtakingly stupid and uninformed stuff gets said here, and I'm taken aback by it

Then I would suggest you preview before hitting POST THIS COMMENT!!!!

:)

884 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:18:05pm

re: #806 Aceofwhat?

is that the fourth time you've had to say that in this thread, or the fifth time?

i mean, it was true the first time...but it's not sinking in...

It isn't sinking in because we aren't thinking as monolithically (yes I know, bad, bad word) as you are. Wind is just a part of the strategy that includes changing from combustion based technology to electrical, and using smart grids, solar panels and electrical storage. The main idea is to diversify and decentralize sources.

885 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:18:15pm

re: #850 Gus 802

and today almost half of the wind turbines around the world are produced by Danish manufacturers such as Vestas.

Vestas now manufactures in China, making China the leading windmill manufacturer along with being the leading solar cell manufacturer. Shame, they outsourced another money making gig to overseas, just like we keep doing, in order to pay slightly higher stockholder dividends...

You know this "free market" thing just isn't everything that people keep claiming it is cracked up to be somehow... :(

886 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:18:22pm

re: #872 McSpiff

Na, I won when he his response to "the industry should have response plans that work" was "THE MMS DOES COKE". Thanks for keeping score though.

Says the guy who ranted about what he didn't say, which he actually said.

The coke thing was sarcasm...but thanks.

887 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:18:35pm

re: #882 WindUpBird

Well, I can't speak for Obdicut, but my problem is generally that a lot of breathtakingly stupid and uninformed stuff gets said here, and I'm taken aback by it

Much of it by you.

888 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:19:23pm

re: #858 McSpiff

No, its the government's fault because they passed healthcare reform and spend all our TAXES on COKE! TEAPARTY RAWR!

Seriously, this guy doesn't have a damn clue how the industry or the science behind it works. Google "Talking points" if you wanna read ahead.

Are you fucking kidding me? You don't even know what YOU said, dumbass.

889 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:19:57pm

re: #867 Obdicut

Thanks. It's on Saturday. We just had the first full day of cake-baking and other food-making. It's been a blast, a very very stressful blast.

Congratulations! Best wishes to you both.

890 Obdicut  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:20:11pm

re: #878 Aceofwhat?

Don't you understand? The plan is secondary. Primary is not having another boom. We can control that...by saying "no, you can't cut this corner".

No, you can't. Even the best people fuck up sometimes. Even the best scenarios go off the charts. You can't have ultimate control.

Honestly, this is why half of the republican wing wants to wipe out entire governmental departments. Because an entire department will fuck up beyond all recognition and people act as if they were powerless to ever prevent X in the first place.

That makes no sense. I don't see anyone who's not saying that MMS doesn't share blame, and didn't fail. But even if there were, how does that lead to a desire to wipe out government departments, and not, say, fix them? That's a pretty insane conclusion to come to.

At my company, if it turns out our QA team has been going off the rails for a long time and missed a bunch of issues, we don't react by not doing QA anymore. We work to fix the problem.

Why on earth would it be different with regulatory agencies? Why is their failure a reason to destroy them, instead of fix them? The need for them is still going to exist. It's not going to go away and the private market will not provide it.


Anyway, I'm going to relax a li'l with the fiancée and go to bed.

891 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:20:12pm

re: #887 Bagua

Much of it by you.

lol

892 Varek Raith  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:20:23pm

Nice hootenanny yall got going.

893 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:20:41pm

re: #884 b_sharp

It isn't sinking in because we aren't thinking as monolithically (yes I know, bad, bad word) as you are. Wind is just a part of the strategy that includes changing from combustion based technology to electrical, and using smart grids, solar panels and electrical storage. The main idea is to diversify and decentralize sources.

That's cool. Not writing so monolithically helps. Moving from ICE to electrical power is a bit of a different subject than moving from coal to Nuclear power to wind/solar/etc.

894 Obdicut  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:20:46pm

re: #881 Aceofwhat?

It's nice when folks get those little details right. Makes you feel like they might get other things right too, later in a discussion. I thought he was right to make the correction. If we're ZOMG LESS OIL, why are we talking about wind?

Because wind can lead to more electric vehicles which leads to less use of oil. It's kind of simple.

Alright, bed for reals now.

895 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:20:47pm

re: #854 Bagua

You're not reading teacher, two of those links were from the NYtimes, the other from a Colorado paper.

I am reading. First you post two pieces from conservative sources about how environmentalists don't care about the birdies because they blindly support wind power, then you post sources about how environmentalists hate wind power.

What point are you trying to make here?

896 Mocking Jay  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:20:58pm

re: #867 Obdicut

Thanks. It's on Saturday. We just had the first full day of cake-baking and other food-making. It's been a blast, a very very stressful blast.

I'll be parked right outside with the engine running in case you get cold feet...

897 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:21:08pm

re: #891 WindUpBird

lol

Lol at you.

898 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:21:48pm

re: #890 Obdicut

That makes no sense. I don't see anyone who's not saying that MMS doesn't share blame, and didn't fail.

Anyway, I'm going to relax a li'l with the fiancée and go to bed.

McSpiff seems loathe to send blame their way. But he doesn't even know what he's saying, so i oughta take that into account.

Have a good night, dude.

899 ryannon  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:22:04pm

re: #783 webevintage

I need me a rooftop windmill...

You can haz!

900 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:22:07pm

re: #854 Bagua

You're not reading teacher, two of those links were from the NYtimes, the other from a Colorado paper.

speaking of stupid stuff...

901 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:22:12pm

re: #890 Obdicut

No, you can't. Even the best people fuck up sometimes. Even the best scenarios go off the charts. You can't have ultimate control.

Then the Pres should have a moratorium on EVERYTHING

Off Shore ,,, Deep water ,,, shallow water ,,, on land,,,, natural gas facilities ,,, coal mines ,,,

902 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:22:25pm

Oh on a sidenote, Bagua linked to a CEPOS study uptop.

Rightwing Danish Thinktank.

CEPOS is dedicated to preserving and strengthening the foundations of a free and prosperous society by supporting tax-cuts, limited government, private enterprise as well as vital cultural and political institutions.

903 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:22:32pm

re: #892 Varek Raith

Nice hootenanny yall got going.

grab a fiddle and join in

904 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:22:32pm

Today was Bloomsday, by the way.

June 16, 1904: the day when James Joyce met Nora Barnacle, sauntering down a street in Dublin's fair city.

The day he made into the day of Ulysses, the unsurpassed work of fiction of the twentieth century.

But how many of you know that one of the great themes of Ulysses is prejudice and Jew-hatred? Leopold Bloom, the hero of Bloomsday, is a Jew.

Here is Joyce reading a selection from Ulysses, followed by a transcript.

Youtube Video

He began:

--Mr Chairman, Ladies and Gentlemen: Great was my admiration in listening to the remarks addressed to the youth of Ireland a moment since by my learned friend. It seemed to me that I had been transported into a country far away from this country, into an age remote from this age, that I stood in ancient Egypt and that I was listening to the speech of some highpriest of that land addressed to the youthful Moses.

His listeners held their cigarettes poised to hear, their smokes ascending, frail stalks that flowered with his speech. And let our crooked smokes. Noble words coming. Look out. Could you try your hand at it yourself?

--And it seemed to me that I heard the voice of that Egyptian highpriest raised in a tone of like haughtiness and like pride. I heard his words and their meaning was revealed to me.

FROM THE FATHERS

It was revealed to me that those things are good which yet are corrupted which neither if they were supremely good nor unless they were good could be corrupted. Ah, curse you! That's saint Augustine.

--Why will you Jews not accept our culture, our religion and our language? You are a tribe of nomad herdsmen: we are a mighty people. You have no cities nor no wealth: our cities are hives of humanity and our galleys, trireme and quadrireme, laden with all manner merchandise, furrow the waters of the known globe. You have but emerged from primitive conditions: we have a literature, a priesthood, an agelong history and a polity.

Nile.
Child, man, effigy.
By the Nilebank the babemaries kneel, cradle of bulrushes: a man supple in combat: stonehorned, stonebearded, heart of stone.

--You pray to a local and obscure idol: our temples, majestic and mysterious, are the abodes of Isis and Osiris, of Horus and Ammon Ra. Yours serfdom, awe and humbleness: ours thunder and the seas. Israel is weak and few are her children: Egypt is an host and terrible are her arms. Vagrants and daylabourers are you called: the world trembles at our name.

A dumb belch of hunger cleft his speech. He lifted his voice above it boldly:

--But, Ladies and Gentlemen, had the youthful Moses listened to and accepted that view of life, had he bowed his head and bowed his will and bowed his spirit before that arrogant admonition, he would never have brought the chosen people out of their house of bondage, nor followed the pillar of the cloud by day. He would never have spoken with the Eternal amid lightnings on Sinai's mountaintop, nor ever have come down with the light of inspiration shining in his countenance and bearing in his arms the tables of the Law, graven in the language of the outlaw.

905 McSpiff  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:22:51pm

re: #878 Aceofwhat?

You're missing the point. They cut corners with the permission of our regulators. Let's not pretend as if this was some hidden series of darkly evil decisions.

Don't you understand? The plan is secondary. Primary is not having another boom. We can control that...by saying "no, you can't cut this corner".

Honestly, this is why half of the republican wing wants to wipe out entire governmental departments. Because an entire department will fuck up beyond all recognition and people act as if they were powerless to ever prevent X in the first place.

Well, if the regulators have no hope (paraphrasing Windy here), then why are we paying them again?

Hell, you won't see me complaining if they were all fired. They totally and completely dropped the ball. But we have learned something:

1) Although regulatory enforcement was near anemic, when things started to go bad, they went very quickly.

2) BP's response plan wasn't worth the paper it was printed on.

I see two screw ups, by two different organization. All I'm saying is both should be addressed. Why do you disagree?

And if regulatory enforcement was as totally shit as we all seem to agree, why are you so convinced that everyone else in the Gulf is doing it right, other than for the fact that no other rigs have exploded yet?

906 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:23:01pm

re: #895 SanFranciscoZionist

I am reading. First you post two pieces from conservative sources about how environmentalists don't care about the birdies because they blindly support wind power, then you post sources about how environmentalists hate wind power.

What point are you trying to make here?

You asked the question

re: #796 SanFranciscoZionist

Once again, I'll take your word for it, since as I commented, I actually never see objections to wind power from 'environmentalists', I only see people here telling me that environmentalists are against wind power. Or for it, and equally bad for that.

This seems like an argument in which the only point being made is that environmentalists are stooopid. It doesn't seem to matter who's actually for or against any particular plan or energy source. Eh, OK.

So I gave you some links so that you could see for yourself.

907 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:23:26pm

re: #894 Obdicut

Because wind can lead to more electric vehicles which leads to less use of oil. It's kind of simple.

Alright, bed for reals now.

That's weird.

Better idea: more electric vehicles STAT, regardless of turbine propagation.

We link those at our peril. We can go ahead and start using less oil today. Why wait?

908 Varek Raith  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:24:06pm

Three words.
Nuclear. Powered. Cars.
Problem solved.

909 windsagio  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:24:44pm

re: #908 Varek Raith

Force-powered cars for the elite!

910 McSpiff  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:24:44pm

re: #907 Aceofwhat?

That's weird.

Better idea: more electric vehicles STAT, regardless of turbine propagation.

We link those at our peril. We can go ahead and start using less oil today. Why wait?

There, something we completely agree on.

911 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:25:03pm

re: #900 WindUpBird

speaking of stupid stuff...

You haven't added on thing to this thread except calling people stupid. Insults are not an argument birdbrain.

912 Mocking Jay  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:25:13pm

re: #908 Varek Raith

Three words.
Nuclear. Powered. Cars.
Problem solved.

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

913 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:25:46pm

re: #884 b_sharp

By going back to the stone age?
This all sounds wonderful, but is about as doable as colonizing Venus. Wind and solar will NEVER be able to meet the worlds energy needs, no matter how much we wish it would.
It wold be just as ridiculous as cities and towns shutting off water and telling everyone to utilize rain barrels. It will not work.

914 Varek Raith  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:26:01pm

re: #912 JasonA

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

We're working on a tootbrush that runs on a .25 megawatt reactor.

915 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:27:29pm

I'm too tired for this. G'night.

916 McSpiff  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:27:47pm

re: #913 CapeCoddah

By going back to the stone age?
This all sounds wonderful, but is about as doable as colonizing Venus. Wind and solar will NEVER be able to meet the worlds energy needs, no matter how much we wish it would.
It wold be just as ridiculous as cities and towns shutting off water and telling everyone to utilize rain barrels. It will not work.

You do realize that many cities are fed from rain supplied fresh water lakes, right? I.E A giant rain barrel.

917 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:28:14pm

re: #909 windsagio

Force-powered cars for the elite!

Kinda slow though, what with the Jedi having to run along behind it while useing the force to levitate it and propel it forward...

918 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:28:39pm

re: #915 b_sharp

I'm too tired for this. G'night.

Goodnight.

919 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:28:58pm

re: #916 McSpiff

You do realize that many cities are fed from rain supplied fresh water lakes, right? I.E A giant rain barrel.

I just lost 5 IQ points just reading that!

920 Varek Raith  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:29:03pm

re: #917 ausador

Kinda slow though, what with the Jedi having to run along behind it while useing the force to levitate it and propel it forward...

That's because they're silly Jedi.
Sith cars run on the souls of orphans.

921 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:29:27pm

re: #920 Varek Raith

That's because they're silly Jedi.
Sith cars run on the souls of orphans.

you really need to get out more!!
/

922 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:29:43pm

re: #904 Cato the Elder

Wow.

923 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:29:49pm

re: #905 McSpiff

Hell, you won't see me complaining if they were all fired. They totally and completely dropped the ball. But we have learned something:

1) Although regulatory enforcement was near anemic, when things started to go bad, they went very quickly.

2) BP's response plan wasn't worth the paper it was printed on.

I see two screw ups, by two different organization. All I'm saying is both should be addressed. Why do you disagree?

And if regulatory enforcement was as totally shit as we all seem to agree, why are you so convinced that everyone else in the Gulf is doing it right, other than for the fact that no other rigs have exploded yet?

Good, let's address both. Oh, wait, we're not. We're just having a moratorium for moratorium's sake when we could be blowing a little chee$e on REAL inspections, done quickly because we throw lots of regulators out there vs. quickly because we do sloppy regulation, to make sure the rest of the rigs are operating well within our required parameters for the next six months. At six months, we expect actual response plans, and if they so much as say "walrus", we will take another 10 billion. Just because.

See? I don't disagree with what you just said, in principle...it's just not what Obama is doing.

924 Varek Raith  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:30:23pm

re: #921 sattv4u2

you really need to get out more!!
/

So the satellites you run can lock onto me?!?!
I think not, Shapeshifter!

925 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:30:38pm

re: #910 McSpiff

There, something we completely agree on.

you'd be surprised. i can make an astonishing amount of sense once i find a little common ground with someone...

926 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:30:49pm

re: #922 CuriousLurker

Wow.

Isn't Cato wonderful?

927 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:32:15pm

re: #913 CapeCoddah

By going back to the stone age?
This all sounds wonderful, but is about as doable as colonizing Venus. Wind and solar will NEVER be able to meet the worlds energy needs, no matter how much we wish it would.
It wold be just as ridiculous as cities and towns shutting off water and telling everyone to utilize rain barrels. It will not work.

I disagree. I think we're only 100-200 years away from being able to run the earth on solar power.

In the meantime, we need nuclear power, and we need it yesterday!

928 McSpiff  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:33:18pm

re: #923 Aceofwhat?

O, Obama's shit the bed entirely on this one.

To use an example he seems to like, we didn't ground planes for 6 months after 9/11. We grounded them until we knew it would be safe to have them back in the air. Pulling an arbitrary number out of the air as some sort of weird collective punishment on the industry makes no sense. Set standards, ensure the industry can meet them, have business continue on safely.

929 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:33:19pm

re: #926 Bagua

Isn't Cato wonderful?

He sure is. I wish I could live inside his head for a few weeks and soak up some of his knowledge.

930 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:33:36pm

re: #914 Varek Raith

We're working on a tootbrush that runs on a .25 megawatt reactor.

Bonus: the emissions really whiten your teeth. They'll positively glow!

931 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:34:04pm

re: #929 CuriousLurker

He sure is. I wish I could live inside his head for a few weeks and soak up some of his knowledge.

The closest we can come to that is LGF.

932 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:34:22pm

re: #928 McSpiff

O, Obama's shit the bed entirely on this one.

To use an example he seems to like, we didn't ground planes for 6 months after 9/11. We grounded them until we knew it would be safe to have them back in the air. Pulling an arbitrary number out of the air as some sort of weird collective punishment on the industry makes no sense. Set standards, ensure the industry can meet them, have business continue on safely.

We agree again!

Good stuff. I have tomorrow off, but it's still late. Good night-

933 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:34:50pm

re: #928 McSpiff

O, Obama's shit the bed entirely on this one.

To use an example he seems to like, we didn't ground planes for 6 months after 9/11. We grounded them until we knew it would be safe to have them back in the air. Pulling an arbitrary number out of the air as some sort of weird collective punishment on the industry makes no sense. Set standards, ensure the industry can meet them, have business continue on safely.

Well said.

934 boxhead  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:35:56pm

re: #913 CapeCoddah

By going back to the stone age?
This all sounds wonderful, but is about as doable as colonizing Venus. Wind and solar will NEVER be able to meet the worlds energy needs, no matter how much we wish it would.
It wold be just as ridiculous as cities and towns shutting off water and telling everyone to utilize rain barrels. It will not work.

The sun provides an over abundance of power. Us being able to harness it is merely a technical challenge. we will solve it.

935 abolitionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:36:05pm

re: #423 Bagua

You have one week to make work cold Fusion nuclear electricity. Then we shoot you.

This is supposed to be an incentive?

936 McSpiff  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:36:15pm

re: #932 Aceofwhat?

We agree again!

Good stuff. I have tomorrow off, but it's still late. Good night-

Phew, bed for me too then!

937 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:36:17pm

re: #920 Varek Raith

That's because they're silly Jedi.
Sith cars run on the souls of orphans.

"It's a shame cars don't run on cognitive dissonance."

-Lewis Black

938 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:36:22pm

re: #906 Bagua

So I gave you some links so that you could see for yourself.

OK, cool. Now I have proof.

Now, how does this square with the accusation that they just ignore the environmental damage from wind power because they hate capitalism?

939 Varek Raith  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:36:47pm

re: #934 boxhead

The sun provides an over abundance of power. Us being able to harness it is merely a technical challenge. we will solve it.

Dyson Sphere.
or a Ring World.
You have 1 week.
/

940 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:37:01pm

re: #935 abolitionist

This is supposed to be an incentive?

Did you read the post I was mocking?

941 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:37:42pm

re: #913 CapeCoddah

By going back to the stone age?
This all sounds wonderful, but is about as doable as colonizing Venus. Wind and solar will NEVER be able to meet the worlds energy needs, no matter how much we wish it would.
It wold be just as ridiculous as cities and towns shutting off water and telling everyone to utilize rain barrels. It will not work.

I've been trying to explain this off and on for years now... as someone who spent 13 years in the renewable research business... for now, and for the near future, the technology is still not advanced enough to become the viable new replacement for fossil fuels.

You can talk all you want about it, wish all you want about it, but the facts are the facts and no amount of money or wishing is going to make it happen...

If you want the federal government to spend wisely, the most productive thing they could do right now is to increase their research funding into renewables by 100 fold.

But no wishing. Unicorns are part of Obama's agenda, not renewable reality.

943 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:38:45pm

re: #938 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, cool. Now I have proof.

Now, how does this square with the accusation that they just ignore the environmental damage from wind power because they hate capitalism?

I'd not heard that one. It makes no sense as Subsidy Wind Farms are a major cash cow at the moment.

944 boxhead  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:39:09pm

re: #939 Varek Raith

Dyson Sphere.
or a Ring World.
You have 1 week.
/

one of my favorite Star Trek NG was with the Dyson sphere and Scotty!

945 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:39:26pm

Okay, new thread and time for me to get some sleep.

Have a great night, Lizards.

946 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:41:00pm

re: #942 ryannon

Based on a documentary I recently saw, I believe it has increased significantly from the 2006 figures.

We need facts Ryanon, birds are in danger!

947 That's Glenn Beck to you  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:42:36pm

Well I am so pleased that we have a thread here where the bedrock philosophies of America are being discussed.

But let me depart from that conversation to inform all of you that I have written another book. This one is different - it is a thriller.

Now I don't want to spoil anything for you, but it is a very carefully constructed plot line that is the product of a great deal of research into both the genre of "suspense / thriller" writing as well as political history. But it is a completely original tale.

The protagonists are a group of young people who find themselves ambling across this great country of ours trying to help people. They drive around in this van and find themselves being confronted with mysterious situations - one after another - as if they are interconnected.

There are two young men and two young women, yet they are restrained - no sexual overtones. For example, one of the females is a bookish, short girl with glasses. One of the young men is a disheveled guy with a dog that he talks to and claims can talk back.

Anyway, one day this group of young people encounter an amusement park that is going bankrupt because it is haunted. It is a family run amusement park run by hard working middle Americans. Yet this fiendish goul keeps scaring guests away. They find clues - a rubber mask with extra big ear holes, a copy of Saul Alinsky's "Rules for radicals", a half eaten kobe beef hamburger ...

Like I said - I don't want to give away who the villain is, so I will stop with the clues. But this book is packed with suspense and action - mummy chases, the dog avoiding detection by the villain by wearing a dress, a new catch phrase ("If it weren't for those darned kids!") ... this book is a page turner.

Buy it now.

948 abolitionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:42:42pm

re: #940 Bagua

Did you read the post I was mocking?

Probably did. I'm pointing out that Then we shoot you appears to be unconditional.

949 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:43:14pm

re: #939 Varek Raith

Dyson Sphere.
or a Ring World.
You have 1 week.
/

"The Ring World is unstable, the Ring World is unstable!"

/ :p

950 Varek Raith  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:44:02pm

re: #949 ausador

"The Ring World is unstable, the Ring World is unstable!"

/ :p

Hey, it's got engines now!!!
:)

951 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:44:38pm

re: #948 abolitionist

Probably did. I'm pointing out that Then we shoot you appears to be unconditional.

Ooops. Lucky Cato didn't see that.

952 Varek Raith  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:47:19pm

re: #951 Bagua

Ooops. Lucky Cato didn't see that.

Indeed.
Now, go sit in the corner.
/

953 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:47:20pm

re: #943 Bagua

I'd not heard that one. It makes no sense as Subsidy Wind Farms are a major cash cow at the moment.

Er, your post from the conservative lesbian appeared to say exactly that.

954 ryannon  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:49:02pm

re: #908 Varek Raith

Three words.
Nuclear. Powered. Cars.
Problem solved.

"And in other news, a massive pile up on the Santa Monica Freeway has rendered Los Angeles uninhabitable for the next 500,000 years. Next up, our sports page."

955 Bagua  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:49:15pm

re: #953 SanFranciscoZionist

Er, your post from the conservative lesbian appeared to say exactly that.

She's a nut.

956 Varek Raith  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:50:17pm

re: #954 ryannon

"And in other news, a massive pile up on the Santa Monica Freeway has rendered Los Angeles uninhabitable for the next 500,000 years. Next up, our sports page."

A minor flaw, at best.
:)

957 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:51:47pm

re: #842 McSpiff
Cool. A mac/PC with a breathalyzer?
I didn't know there was an app for that.

958 tradewind  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:54:03pm

re: #848 windsagio
There's regulation, and then there's regulation. Totally a question of what and who's doing it.

959 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:54:48pm

re: #916 McSpiff

Spring fed ones, also. But thanks for deliberately sidestepping my point.

960 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:57:32pm

re: #941 Walter L. Newton

It is really not that difficult to understand, really. You have to deliberately not WANT to understand it. It is just plain old common sense.
Some folks figure they can achieve Utopia if they only wish hard enough.

961 Varek Raith  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:58:05pm

Later gators!

962 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 10:59:14pm

re: #934 boxhead

How will you solve the challenge of a week of rain? Last June, it rained 28 days out of 30 here. What then?

963 ryannon  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 11:02:02pm

re: #946 Bagua

We need facts Ryanon, birds are in danger!

Birds doing ok in Denmark. Flying fish, not so much.

964 boxhead  Wed, Jun 16, 2010 11:02:18pm

re: #962 CapeCoddah

How will you solve the challenge of a week of rain? Last June, it rained 28 days out of 30 here. What then?

That is just logistics... I am not saying it will be solved in the near term. I do not see the commitment needed by this Country. But we, as a people, are close......

965 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 17, 2010 12:12:39am

After all of the posts, many of which I have missed.
{{{Reine}}}
Be well, be strong, hang in there, my friend.

966 abolitionist  Thu, Jun 17, 2010 12:57:52am

re: #668 CuriousLurker

From your link,
Join the Paliban! Donate today!
HOST A BOOK-BURNING!
PRAY IN SCHOOL!
MAKING AMERICA THE CHRISTIAN NATION IT SHOULD BE

Perhaps they could combine the book-burning with some witch therapy, while selling a bunch of chocolate bars, marshmallows, and thumb-sized marital fidelity sticks.

Oh and some Arthur Brown CDs - Fire

967 abolitionist  Thu, Jun 17, 2010 1:46:23am

I hereby admit to some confusion about the nature of the site, paliban.org

In the merchandise section, with the heading Recommended Reading, I find books by Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, etc.

968 abolitionist  Thu, Jun 17, 2010 3:30:08am

A Firefox plugin ( hostip.info ) has helped clarify things.

Excerpt from paliban.org/blog

The Paliban is migrating to a beautiful new site built for us in WordPress
. We're also changing and expanding our content areas, adding some new contributors, and more! We'll address that in another post.

There are now more ways to find us:

* [Link: www.palibandaily.com...]
* [Link: www.paliban.org...]
* [Link: www.paliban.com...]
* [Link: www.paliban.net...]

Bookmark the link you like best. (We are partial to palibandaily.com.) They all go to the same place!

Those four are showing the same IP ( 74.220.219.65 ), same as
secularnewsdaily.com

Top item there under Paliban Watch:
Dominionist group promotes “how to take over America” list

That same IP ( 74.220.219.65 ) is being indicated for paliban.org

When I use that IP directly, I get a message from Bluehost.com -
There is no website configured at this address.

Ok, now I'm even more confused.

969 abolitionist  Thu, Jun 17, 2010 4:23:01am

re: #692 ausador

It is a POE SITE you my friend have been suckered, sorry.

If you go to their "education" page it is all atheist or secularist books.

[Link: www.paliban.org...]

Thanks, but POE site? Does.not.compute. Some results from another tool:
Initiating server query ...
Looking up IP address for domain: [Link: www.paliban.org...]
The IP address for the domain is: 74.220.219.65
...
Looking up IP address for domain: [Link: www.secularnewsdaily.com...]
The IP address for the domain is: 74.220.219.65

970 Gus  Thu, Jun 17, 2010 4:25:48am

re: #968 abolitionist

A Firefox plugin ( hostip.info ) has helped clarify things.

Excerpt from paliban.org/blog

Those four are showing the same IP ( 74.220.219.65 ), same as
secularnewsdaily.com

Top item there under Paliban Watch:
Dominionist group promotes “how to take over America” list

That same IP ( 74.220.219.65 ) is being indicated for paliban.org

When I use that IP directly, I get a message from Bluehost.com -
There is no website configured at this address.

Ok, now I'm even more confused.

They're all run by the same people more or less. Paliban dot org isn't a Dominionist site. The name is a bit of a spoof based on the slang term, Paliban, and they post real news from the world of Dominionists and the Palinites as a form of absurdity and to shed light on these archaic creatures.

Paliban as defined at Urban Dictionary:

Pal·i·ban The Paliban are an evangelically infused political movement following a strict interpretation of Sarah Palin's life views. Paliban rule imposes draconian restrictions on women being allowed to self determine their own bodies. The Paliban are reactionary to science and prefer to base their beliefs on fear and faith. Environmental issues are generally brushed off or denied, because the rapture should take care of it, and the Paliban believes they will all be hoovered to heaven. Individual members of the Paliban are referred to as Palinistas. The Paliban has a particular fascination with tea bags and aren't particularly good spellers. If you are not one of them, you are against all of them. You've been warned.

1) The Paliban members are difficult to count since whenever they gather their numbers are greatly exaggerated by Fox news.

2) I saw a member of the Paliban had made a facebook pledge to Palin, "I would die for you, I would kill for you."

3) The Paliban should not be confused with Pal-Qaida.

The original Paliban Daily was based on the theater of the absurd.

971 sffilk  Thu, Jun 17, 2010 5:23:06am

To put it mildly:

STUPID CULT!

972 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jun 17, 2010 7:37:08am

re: #964 boxhead

That is just logistics... I am not saying it will be solved in the near term. I do not see the commitment needed by this Country. But we, as a people, are close...

The lack of sunlight is a bit more of a problem than logistical.
The commitment is not there simply because most folks have the common sense to understand that solar power will never be nearly adequate enough to provide the power needed to run civilization, neither will wind, and neither will the two combined.
Wishing harder for it, REALLY wanting it to be so, is shoveling shit against the tide.

973 ZeroGain  Thu, Jun 17, 2010 9:13:07am

Compare & Contrast:

Dominion Process step 3: "The second coming of Jesus will take place after this blessed seed has completed the Dominion Process upon the earth by making disciples of all nations."

Mathew 25:13 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour."

Idiots... Know your theology if you plan to go against the God you claimto serve.


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