Pope Benedict Condemns Belgium For Raiding Child Molesters

Religion • Views: 3,243

Here’s today’s genuine outrage, as Pope Benedict once again sides with child molesters within the Catholic Church against government officials trying to bring the molesters to justice: Pope deplores ‘sex abuse’ raids by Belgian police.

Pope Benedict has joined mounting Vatican criticism of raids by Belgian police investigating alleged child sex abuse, calling them “deplorable”.

In a message to Belgian bishops, the pope expressed solidarity “in this moment of sadness”.

Several buildings were searched in raids targeting a retired archbishop and the graves of two prelates.

Belgium’s justice minister has responded to the criticism robustly, saying normal procedures were followed. Stefaan De Clerck defended the police action, in a series of TV interviews on Sunday, and said the investigation was legitimate.

“The bishops were treated completely normally during the raid on the archdiocese and it is false to say that they received no food or drink,” he said.

Mr De Clerck said the Vatican’s reaction had been excessive as it was based on false information.

Prosecutors said the action concerned alleged “abuse of minors committed by a certain number of Church figures”.

Jump to bottom

160 comments
1 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 1:52:02pm

I know how to keep the police from raiding places in regards to child molestation cases. Don’t molest children. That one is on me Pope Benedict.

2 Kragar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 1:52:21pm

I’m getting a distinct impression that his earlier apoligies on the subject were his way of saying “OK, we can move on to something else now.”

3 aurelius  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 1:57:04pm

raided the graves? that’s weird.

anyway, the catholic church needs to get with the program and allow regular people to be priests. That should cut way down on the pedophilia rate. simple as that.

oh and kick them out/help prosecute them when they do molest children. you can forgive them as you’re doing that, don’t worry.

4 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 1:57:14pm

A long history clearly demonstrates that you cannot expect the church to act right or morally in these cases. They are in complete believe that their law and decisions trump all others, the very definition of theocracy. Since they consider themselves above the law they better get used to more of these raids - the church itself cannot be trusted when it comes to children.

5 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 1:57:47pm

/pimf believe == belief

6 aurelius  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 1:59:24pm

wonder what they were looking for in the graves. Searching the dead bodies of two prelates… wow.

7 Baier  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 1:59:32pm

What do you expect from someone (an ex-Nazi at that) who believes we were created by an invisible man in the sky, something rational?

8 Kragar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 1:59:50pm

re: #6 aurelius

wonder what they were looking for in the graves. Searching the dead bodies of two prelates… wow.

DNA evidence probably.

9 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:00:19pm

Good lord, serious question what percentage of priests are pedophiles? Everyone would like to believe it is some tiny fraction, but there is major case after major case all across the world and they do not stop producing new ones.

Are we talking thousands of priests doing this? Are we talking tens of thousands? Are we talking hundreds of thousands? Does anyone have reliable numbers on this that could get us even within a factor of 2?

10 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:00:33pm

re: #6 aurelius

wonder what they were looking for in the graves. Searching the dead bodies of two prelates… wow.

The only thing I can think of is DNA. Perhaps some was collected in a rape kit. That’s all i can think of.

11 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:00:39pm
12 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:00:58pm

Note to the Holy See: you are not above the law.

And good luck with the PR campaign. It’s not working.

13 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:00:58pm

re: #11 Fozzie Bear

Q: How do you know it’s bedtime at the Catholic boarding school?

A: When the big hand touches the little hand.

That is so wrong.

14 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:01:25pm

re: #8 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

DNA evidence probably.

Beat me to it - almost certainly they’re looking for DNA, to match to samples from abused children.

15 Kragar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:01:44pm

re: #10 Cannadian Club Akbar

The only thing I can think of is DNA. Perhaps some was collected in a rape kit. That’s all i can think of.

or to establish paternity.

16 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:02:08pm

re: #6 aurelius

wonder what they were looking for in the graves. Searching the dead bodies of two prelates… wow.

I read that they had reason to suspect that some files may have been “buried” there.

17 aurelius  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:02:08pm

re: #9 LudwigVanQuixote

think of who they select. People who have male anatomy and physiology and yet who will vow to never have an intimate relationship?

I think you’re starting with at least 10-20% who are “off” enough in their wiring for pedophilia to be on the agenda.

18 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:02:13pm

re: #9 LudwigVanQuixote

It’s not just the number of priests, it’s also how many children each priest molests. In the LA Archdiocese, there were serial KNOWN abusers for over 20 years. They just kept moving them around.
*spit*

19 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:02:38pm

re: #11 Fozzie Bear

I appreciate gallows humor and dark humor, but please know that jokes like that can actually cause pain to people, like me, who were sexually abused as children.

20 albusteve  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:02:41pm

shine on you crazy Pope

21 Baier  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:02:51pm

re: #9 LudwigVanQuixote

Good lord, serious question what percentage of priests are pedophiles? Everyone would like to believe it is some tiny fraction, but there is major case after major case all across the world and they do not stop producing new ones.

Are we talking thousands of priests doing this? Are we talking tens of thousands? Are we talking hundreds of thousands? Does anyone have reliable numbers on this that could get us even within a factor of 2?

I don’t think the number of priests is at issue, but rather the Catholic Church’s refusal to get with the program.

22 researchok  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:03:14pm

The pope’s reaction is most unfortunate.

He is reacting like the CEO of any large corporation who believes that somehow, his organization somehow merits special treatment.

The history of abuse in the church is not unlike the history of disregard for safety rules by BP- It is long and well documented.

That said, there is a difference. BP is a money making concern while the church is supposed to a moral making endeavor.

A close friend recently noted that John Paul II ignored ever mounting abuse charges. Legacies are complex matters and do not come easily.

23 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:03:18pm

re: #12 Gus 802

Note to the Holy See: you are not above the law.

And good luck with the PR campaign. It’s not working.

In the Holy See, they are the law. Everywhere else, not so much anymore thank G-d. I am really starting to get a very strong sense that there is something endemically wrong with the Church on a grand scale - not the actions of a small minority at all, but rather something that is almost considered acceptable and not uncommon if it remains hidden.

24 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:03:40pm

re: #14 Charles

Beat me to it - almost certainly they’re looking for DNA, to match to samples from abused children.

How would they have those samples?
Would they have taken the samples years ago, when those priests were still alive? If samples were taken, then the incidents must have been reported to the police at that time - why did the police not take action at that time?

That’s the part that’s confusing to me, the searching of the graves.

But Benedict’s reaction is not one bit defensible.

25 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:03:55pm

re: #21 Baier

I don’t think the number of priests is at issue, but rather the Catholic Church’s refusal to get with the program.

Acknowledge that there IS a problem.

FTFY.

26 Baier  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:04:36pm

re: #25 Floral Giraffe

Acknowledge that there IS a problem.

FTFY.

Step one.

27 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:04:37pm

re: #24 reine.de.tout

How would they have those samples?
Would they have taken the samples years ago, when those priests were still alive? If samples were taken, then the incidents must have been reported to the police at that time - why did the police not take action at that time?

That’s the part that’s confusing to me, the searching of the graves.

But Benedict’s reaction is not one bit defensible.

re: #10 Cannadian Club Akbar

The only thing I can think of is DNA. Perhaps some was collected in a rape kit. That’s all i can think of.

28 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:04:43pm

re: #17 aurelius

think of who they select. People who have male anatomy and physiology and yet who will vow to never have an intimate relationship?

I think you’re starting with at least 10-20% who are “off” enough in their wiring for pedophilia to be on the agenda.

I wonder if other celibate sects have similar issues. I really don’t know.

29 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:04:48pm

re: #18 Floral Giraffe

It’s not just the number of priests, it’s also how many children each priest molests. In the LA Archdiocese, there were serial KNOWN abusers for over 20 years. They just kept moving them around.
*spit*

Not just LA Archdiocese - it went on all over the country.
Protecting the priests, no thought of protecting the children.
And the Vatican still does not get it.

30 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:04:51pm

BBL.
Nothing happy about this.
Particularly not for the victims.

31 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:05:26pm

re: #19 Obdicut

I appreciate gallows humor and dark humor, but please know that jokes like that can actually cause pain to people, like me, who were sexually abused as children.

My apologies. The goal was humor.

I reported my post.

32 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:05:48pm

re: #24 reine.de.tout

From what I read, the translation of ‘graves’ is inappropriate, and it should be ‘crypts’, and that the Belgian authorities believed documents were buried with the priests. It sounds bizarre to me, but not beyond the realm of possibility.

33 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:06:52pm

re: #17 aurelius

think of who they select. People who have male anatomy and physiology and yet who will vow to never have an intimate relationship?

I think you’re starting with at least 10-20% who are “off” enough in their wiring for pedophilia to be on the agenda.

I believe you are correct. I found something years ago, can’t find the links now, but there were a few seminaries that, at best, turned a blind eye to evidence of lots of such activity going on among the seminarians.

34 tradewind  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:07:14pm

Ugh.
The Church in Europe is years behind the US in investigating this sordid mess , ID’ing the perps, and bringing it to some sort of resolution. They have a long way to go, they’d best get with the program.
(What’s with the grave thing, though)?

35 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:08:05pm

I have been reading about priest abuse scandals now for the better part of 20 years. I know they have a longer history than that in the US.

Right, if you take into account how hard the Church tries to cover this up, and how difficult it can be for victims to come forward, is it reasonable to guess that we only know about say 10% of them?

If that is the case, we are literally talking about tens of thousands of priests engaged in this activity.

36 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:08:23pm

re: #31 Fozzie Bear

Oh, I know that, dude. No worries. And I’m not asking for the post to be deleted. I know you treat the subject with seriousness.

Humor on it is tricky, though, to gauge. And some people are much more wounded.

37 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:08:23pm

re: #32 Obdicut

From what I read, the translation of ‘graves’ is inappropriate, and it should be ‘crypts’, and that the Belgian authorities believed documents were buried with the priests. It sounds bizarre to me, but not beyond the realm of possibility.

{obdi}
Good to see you back!

And the gallows humor had no place in this thread, thank you for pointing it out.

38 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:08:51pm

Please stop short of Catholic bashing or religion bashing in general. Be classy lizards.

The issues range from abuse of authority in an authoritarian system to an institutional reporting and denial issue. These are serious issues for any group that works with youth, has civil or religious authority or depends on volunteers that can be an entryway for predators.

Abuse is terrible and should be condemned by the Pope and any other RCC authority. But try to separate the crimes and the perpetrators from religion in general. After all these people are committing crimes against the very doctrines they are supposedly teaching.

I think a celebate male priesthood is problematic but I’m not going to slander all priests as pedaphiles and perverts. A great amount of good has been done by thousands of dedicated and clean men of God. They don’t deserve to be painted with the same brush as the perverts and predators.

39 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:08:59pm

re: #3 aurelius

raided the graves? that’s weird.

anyway, the catholic church needs to get with the program and allow regular people to be priests. That should cut way down on the pedophilia rate. simple as that.

What do you mean by regular people? How does a divinity school screen for pedophiles?

40 albusteve  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:09:16pm

re: #23 LudwigVanQuixote

In the Holy See, they are the law. Everywhere else, not so much anymore thank G-d. I am really starting to get a very strong sense that there is something endemically wrong with the Church on a grand scale - not the actions of a small minority at all, but rather something that is almost considered acceptable and not uncommon if it remains hidden.

ya think?…there is probably a thousand year history of this behavior, or more, world wide

41 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:09:27pm

When FLDS churches (Jeffs) molested children in a organized manner, heads of the organizations and perpetrators went to jail. I’m tired of Catholic Priests getting off the hook on this stuff — are not Catholic children due equal protection? Shouldn’t we treat organized long running abuse and coverup by Catholic churches the same way that FLDS was handled?

42 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:09:31pm

re: #21 Baier

I don’t think the number of priests is at issue, but rather the Catholic Church’s refusal to get with the program.

I agree.
And I’m even one of those people who believe we were created by an invisible man in the sky.

43 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:09:34pm

re: #37 reine.de.tout

I’m only slightly back; I’m madly busy, but right now I bizarrely have nothing I can do. Just in time for a good ol’ abuse thread.

I think I’ll save the few pictures that I have so far of the wedding et al. for a later thread. Or create a page for them.

44 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:09:37pm

re: #21 Baier

I don’t think the number of priests is at issue, but rather the Catholic Church’s refusal to get with the program.

Both are important. I want to know the scale of the problem.

45 mj  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:09:56pm

Unfortunately, the Vatican seems to be be moving in the wrong direction:

Vatican admonishes Austrian cardinal for comments

VATICAN CITY – The Vatican on Monday issued an unprecedented rebuke of a top cardinal who had accused the retired Vatican No. 2 of blocking clerical sex abuse investigations, publicly dressing down a man who had been praised for his criticism of church abuse cover-ups.
The silencing of Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn, the archbishop of Vienna and long considered a papal contender, drew heated criticism from clerical abuse victims. They said the Vatican should be honoring Schoenborn, not publicly humiliating him, for his calls for greater transparency and demands for a crackdown on priests who rape and sodomize children…

[Link: news.yahoo.com…]

46 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:09:56pm

re: #43 Obdicut

I’m only slightly back; I’m madly busy, but right now I bizarrely have nothing I can do. Just in time for a good ol’ abuse thread.

I think I’ll save the few pictures that I have so far of the wedding et al. for a later thread. Or create a page for them.

Oh, do a page!

47 albusteve  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:10:54pm

re: #31 Fozzie Bear

My apologies. The goal was humor.

I reported my post.

thanks…my ex wife was abused for several years

48 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:11:06pm

If the church wants to try to get this under control, one place to start is to do away with the absurd celibacy vow associated with the priesthood. I’m NOT saying that it causes pedophilia, but I do think it possible that the “asexual” nature of the job attracts people who aren’t necessarily asexual, but rather who are struggling with deviant sexuality, and thus are trying to suppress their drives entirely.

Sexual repression isn’t good for the soul anyway, even if the people doing it are otherwise healthy.

49 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:11:29pm

re: #27 Cannadian Club Akbar

Well, exactly.
And if it was collected, and the priests are now dead, then it had to have been collected awhile back, close to the time of the incident, and the priest would have been still alive. And if samples were collected, than some report must have been made to the police. Why would the police not have taken action at that time?

50 Baier  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:11:58pm

This American Life has a great story about an ex-Catholic priest who’s job was to deal with this kind of thing, it’s worth a listen.

51 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:12:29pm

re: #28 LudwigVanQuixote

I wonder if other celibate sects have similar issues. I really don’t know.


I think it is more a situation of abused authority. Much like the teacher/student issues that crop up in public schools. The unusual lifestyle of celibacy may be a contributing factor.

The tendency of abusers and predators to seek out situations where they are in control of victims and their story is typical of many organizations. This is why the BSA has a strict two leaders present at all times policy to prevent the opportunity from arising.

52 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:12:41pm

re: #45 mj

Unfortunately, the Vatican seems to be be moving in the wrong direction:

Vatican admonishes Austrian cardinal for comments

[Link: news.yahoo.com…]

Well there you have it. The good ones are silenced.

Right.

I feel so sorry for the decent and good Catholics out there who are seeing their faith dragged through the gutter by corruption and sickness.

I just want to be clear that this has got to hurt them deeply and I feel for them.

In a very real sense, they are victims of this too.

53 albusteve  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:12:46pm

re: #41 Thanos

When FLDS churches (Jeffs) molested children in a organized manner, heads of the organizations and perpetrators went to jail. I’m tired of Catholic Priests getting off the hook on this stuff — are not Catholic children due equal protection? Shouldn’t we treat organized long running abuse and coverup by Catholic churches the same way that FLDS was handled?

of course….the Vatican should be shut down, all records, hard drives etc confiscated, and everybody with reach hauled off to a grand jury….the fact that that won’t happen says it all to me

54 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:12:54pm

re: #49 reine.de.tout

Well, exactly.
And if it was collected, and the priests are now dead, then it had to have been collected awhile back, close to the time of the incident, and the priest would have been still alive. And if samples were collected, than some report must have been made to the police. Why would the police not have taken action at that time?

Victims didn’t talk, probably.

55 ryannon  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:13:03pm

re: #49 reine.de.tout

Well, exactly.
And if it was collected, and the priests are now dead, then it had to have been collected awhile back, close to the time of the incident, and the priest would have been still alive. And if samples were collected, than some report must have been made to the police. Why would the police not have taken action at that time?

It has nothing to do with collecting DNA samples. The police are looking for incriminating material evidence.

56 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:13:20pm

re: #46 reine.de.tout

Probably will this evening; I only have a movie of it at the moment and I don’t feel like screenshotting it.

57 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:13:26pm

re: #41 Thanos

When FLDS churches (Jeffs) molested children in a organized manner, heads of the organizations and perpetrators went to jail. I’m tired of Catholic Priests getting off the hook on this stuff — are not Catholic children due equal protection? Shouldn’t we treat organized long running abuse and coverup by Catholic churches the same way that FLDS was handled?

It does make me wonder if the parents of the abused children went to the police in the first place? Surely there must have been cases before this recent public exposure, of parents who filed police reports when it was learned a son or daughter was raped. Or were such reports ignored by the police? I don’t know.

58 b_sharp  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:13:30pm

re: #18 Floral Giraffe

It’s not just the number of priests, it’s also how many children each priest molests. In the LA Archdiocese, there were serial KNOWN abusers for over 20 years. They just kept moving them around.
*spit*

Many ‘troubled’ religious members were ultimately reassigned to Canada and Alaska.

59 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:13:48pm

re: #53 albusteve

I’d be happy at the Diocese level, I dont’ even think it has to run back to the Vatican

60 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:13:58pm

re: #56 Obdicut

Probably will this evening; I only have a movie of it at the moment and I don’t feel like screenshotting it.

Well I’ve missed you Obdi!

61 tradewind  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:14:56pm

re: #42 reine.de.tout
Tru dat.
And although I feel much worse for the victims of the abusers, and am not equating their distress, I also feel horribly for the majority of decent priests who suffer by association from the actions of the few.

62 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:15:20pm

*Cough* Two days ago…

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Still wondering exactly why they drilled into two ex-Bishops tombs, according to rumor they were looking for documents, but who told them that they would find hidden documents (apparently wrongly) there? I’ll be interested when they release the details of this investigation as to what evidence they had to support the raids.

63 albusteve  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:15:34pm

re: #59 Thanos

I’d be happy at the Diocese level, I dont’ even think it has to run back to the Vatican

as for me, I consider the Pope complicit….what was he up to all those years, and why the dodge all the time?…what does he know?

64 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:15:50pm

re: #47 albusteve

thanks…my ex wife was abused for several years

Oh Christ, I’m sorry.

To me, this issue is just perplexing and it angers me, but it has no personal resonance apart from wanting to strangle people who do this sort of thing to children.

I’ll stick to tasteless humor on other subjects.

65 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:15:53pm

re: #59 Thanos

I’d be happy at the Diocese level, I dont’ even think it has to run back to the Vatican

Agreed.
That’s where the abuse is happening.

66 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:16:12pm

One of the things that surprises me is that more priests haven’t ended up dead over this. I mean if someone raped my child, I am not certain I would be overly interested in the niceties of the social contract.

67 darthstar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:16:24pm

Speaking of children in need of rescue…there’s always Cat Lassie

68 albusteve  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:16:28pm

re: #64 Fozzie Bear

Oh Christ, I’m sorry.

To me, this issue is just perplexing and it angers me, but it has no personal resonance apart from wanting to strangle people who do this sort of thing to children.

I’ll stick to tasteless humor on other subjects.

no problem

69 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:16:36pm

re: #57 eclectic infidel

It does make me wonder if the parents of the abused children went to the police in the first place? Surely there must have been cases before this recent public exposure, of parents who filed police reports when it was learned a son or daughter was raped. Or were such reports ignored by the police? I don’t know.

There was recalcitrance to report, and even more so from the FLDS people - remember they didn’t consider it a sin or wrong. What I was speaking about is that one report of abuse problems and there were raids. How many reports of abuse problems have there been with no raids at Catholic churches?

70 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:17:31pm

re: #57 eclectic infidel

From some work I’ve done in the Hispanic community, I know that a lot of parents do not report such things to the police. For a lot of people, the authority and community of the church makes it very difficult for them to go outside it. It’s very similar to the lack of reporting of abuse within families.

[Link: www.darkness2light.org…]

This is a very good site for information about child sexual abuse. I encourage anyone with questions on this subject to read this site, especially if you know (or suspect) a loved one has been abused. Many of the innocent questions that the abused are asked by those trying to help can actually be quite painful.

Remember that the first reaction of a child is to assume that it is all their fault.

71 tradewind  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:17:47pm

re: #41 Thanos
I bet there is money involved in the whole thing, as well. The church’s attempt to protect its financial interests, probably some people were bribed in various ways, etc.

72 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:17:54pm

re: #59 Thanos

I’d be happy at the Diocese level, I dont’ even think it has to run back to the Vatican

Given how long the abuse and coverup has been going on for, it is quite possible that those very priests and cardinals who did the molesting are now within the Vatican walls.

73 albusteve  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:18:27pm

re: #66 LudwigVanQuixote

One of the things that surprises me is that more priests haven’t ended up dead over this. I mean if someone raped my child, I am not certain I would be overly interested in the niceties of the social contract.

I’ve always wanted to post that same thought, and I agree, almost seems odd nobody has iced a priest, or maybe they have

74 tradewind  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:18:53pm

re: #73 albusteve
I think I remember reading that they have.

75 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:18:58pm

re: #61 tradewind

Tru dat.
And although I feel much worse for the victims of the abusers, and am not equating their distress, I also feel horribly for the majority of decent priests who suffer by association from the actions of the few.

The majority of decent priests are as sickened by this as anyone else.
It’s the church hierarchy and leadership that seems to not get it.
Pedophiles are never cured; and the damage done to innocent young lives is so horrendous that people who engage in that activity should be kicked out of the priesthood and IMO, kicked out of the church as well.

76 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:19:02pm

re: #72 eclectic infidel

Good point.

77 albusteve  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:19:15pm

re: #72 eclectic infidel

Given how long the abuse and coverup has been going on for, it is quite possible that those very priests and cardinals who did the molesting are now within the Vatican walls.

indeed….let’s have a close look

78 tradewind  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:20:02pm

re: #75 reine.de.tout
Yes, the shell game has no place in this, but that’s what they did… just move ‘em around from place to place.

79 b_sharp  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:20:08pm

re: #38 DaddyG

Please stop short of Catholic bashing or religion bashing in general. Be classy lizards.

The issues range from abuse of authority in an authoritarian system to an institutional reporting and denial issue. These are serious issues for any group that works with youth, has civil or religious authority or depends on volunteers that can be an entryway for predators.

Abuse is terrible and should be condemned by the Pope and any other RCC authority. But try to separate the crimes and the perpetrators from religion in general. After all these people are committing crimes against the very doctrines they are supposedly teaching.

I think a celebate male priesthood is problematic but I’m not going to slander all priests as pedaphiles and perverts. A great amount of good has been done by thousands of dedicated and clean men of God. They don’t deserve to be painted with the same brush as the perverts and predators.

The bashing I’ve seen so far isn’t so much about the religion as the organization controlling the religion.

The only way to clean up the the organization is to recognize the problems within the structure and then to deal with it.

80 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:20:18pm

Yeah it must SUCK to be a normal (non-molester) priest watching this happen to the institution to which you have devoted your life.

81 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:20:20pm

re: #77 albusteve

indeed…let’s have a close look

Vatican City is it’s own country. Can Italian law enforcement go in?

82 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:20:34pm

re: #53 albusteve

of course…the Vatican should be shut down, all records, hard drives etc confiscated, and everybody with reach hauled off to a grand jury…the fact that that won’t happen says it all to me


The Vatican is recognized as a country by many governments. It is a sticky issue of sovereignty. Having said that- there is a special place in hell for those who use ecclesiastical privilege to hide sins.

Luke 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

83 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:20:46pm
84 Baier  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:20:47pm

re: #66 LudwigVanQuixote

One of the things that surprises me is that more priests haven’t ended up dead over this. I mean if someone raped my child, I am not certain I would be overly interested in the niceties of the social contract.

I don’t think many people are capable of murder and, in the US, we have a relatively competent justice system.

85 albusteve  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:22:18pm

raining in torrents at the bunkhouse…..been over 8 months, and she’sa really coming down with a vengence

86 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:22:23pm

re: #77 albusteve

indeed…let’s have a close look

A very, very close look. The deliberate cover-ups demand that all levels of the Roman Church be investigated. By all means, keep it polite, but leave no stone unturned.

87 tradewind  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:22:50pm

I don’t think these guys do too well in
prison…..re: #73 albusteve


[Link: www.cnn.com…]

88 albusteve  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:23:17pm

re: #81 Cannadian Club Akbar

Vatican City is it’s own country. Can Italian law enforcement go in?

who cares…do it anyway

89 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:23:35pm

re: #72 eclectic infidel

Given how long the abuse and coverup has been going on for, it is quite possible that those very priests and cardinals who did the molesting are now within the Vatican walls.

Ironically one of the reasons for establishing a celebate priesthood was to avoid dissolving the Church properties through inheritances on the part of Priests family members.

90 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:24:56pm

By the way, I feel that site I posted slightly overlooks the Catholic Church controversy. It’s an organization that was started by Baptists, which may be part of it. However, the vast, vast majority of abuse comes from inside families, which is terrible, but true.

I’ve worked with them and they’re dedicated and excellent people. If anyone needs a secular group— as I did— this is the gold standard:

[Link: www.rainn.org…]

91 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:25:20pm

re: #79 b_sharp

The bashing I’ve seen so far isn’t so much about the religion as the organization controlling the religion.

The only way to clean up the the organization is to recognize the problems within the structure and then to deal with it.


I’ve got no problem with criticism, even my own Church when deserved. It was a few off color jokes that had me worried about the direction of the thread.

92 Gang of One  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:26:35pm

re: #7 Baier

What do you expect from someone (an ex-Nazi at that) who believes we were created by an invisible man in the sky, something rational?

I rarely ever down-ding. That was uncalled for.

93 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:26:54pm

Damage control gone wild.

94 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:27:36pm

re: #66 LudwigVanQuixote

One of the things that surprises me is that more priests haven’t ended up dead over this. I mean if someone raped my child, I am not certain I would be overly interested in the niceties of the social contract.

Here’s a book you might like:

Billy then decides to alter his education plans to facilitate a demonstration for the Catholic Church concerning its misguided defense of priests guilty of child sex abuse. Although his main goal is to convince the church hierarchy to revise its methods of selecting priest candidates, Billy presents an object lesson by assassinating priests who are known child predators sheltered by the church bureaucracy.

It’s about an atheistic sociopath who fakes his way into seminary, becomes a priest with the goal of murdering aberrant priests.

95 darthstar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:28:33pm

re: #93 Spare O’Lake

Damage control gone wild.

Were you expecting an upding?

96 albusteve  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:28:33pm

re: #93 Spare O’Lake

Damage control gone wild.

better than none at all…move on

97 Baier  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:28:37pm

re: #92 Gang of One

I rarely ever down-ding. That was uncalled for.

You big ape.

98 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:29:53pm

re: #94 goddamnedfrank

IIRC, in the 70’s there was a movie called The Exterminator or something like that, where the guy went around killing molesters.

99 b_sharp  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:30:01pm

re: #39 eclectic infidel

What do you mean by regular people? How does a divinity school screen for pedophiles?

I think he means that sex as in regular interactions be allowed.

In my opinion, the percentage of pedophiles may be higher, if it is, within organizations like the Catholic church not because of forced celibacy but because religion can give false hope to people who are aware of their predatory leanings. It may be they are drawn to the Church because they believe they will be able to better to control their compulsions in a highly religious context.

In other words, people with predatory desires are drawn to the Church in hopes of overcoming those desires.

100 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:31:45pm

re: #99 b_sharp

And, more darkly, because it’s a place where people who claim to asexuality or very low sex drives are welcomed. It’s even considered a good thing, in would-be priests.

Apparent low sex drive and/or appearance of asexuality is something that is often present in pedophiles, unfortunately.

101 b_sharp  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:32:02pm

re: #42 reine.de.tout

I agree.
And I’m even one of those people who believe we were created by an invisible man in the sky.

Silly question: How long has the Judaic-Christian-Muslim god been invisible?

102 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:32:54pm

re: #94 goddamnedfrank

It’s about an atheistic sociopath who fakes his way into seminary, becomes a priest with the goal of murdering aberrant priests.

I’m not sure I would like that. I don’t have a vengeance fantasy here. I am seriously and legitimately curious why more priests have not been killed over this though. It is the flip side of my trying to estimate the numbers.

103 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:32:55pm

re: #101 b_sharp

Silly question: How long has the Judaic-Christian-Muslim god been invisible?

He’s in jail. That’s where most seem to find him.
/half

104 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:33:04pm

I think that part of it is due to the patriarchal nature of these religious organizations. If you look at these occurrences there is one constant regardless of the religion - you see the same things whether you are looking at Waco, Strong City, FLDS, the Jehovah’s witness cases, or the cases within the Catholic church.

There’s One male head who is the ultimate arbiter and who teaches that his law outweighs that of the state in all cases. The difference between the cases in the Catholic church vs the fundy cults is that at least the Catholic church recognizes that child abuse is a sin and wrong in principle if not in practice.

105 darthstar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:33:41pm

re: #101 b_sharp

Silly question: How long has the Judaic-Christian-Muslim god been invisible?

Ever since Jesus was caught in this pic holding a doobie.

106 b_sharp  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:33:58pm

re: #48 Fozzie Bear

If the church wants to try to get this under control, one place to start is to do away with the absurd celibacy vow associated with the priesthood. I’m NOT saying that it causes pedophilia, but I do think it possible that the “asexual” nature of the job attracts people who aren’t necessarily asexual, but rather who are struggling with deviant sexuality, and thus are trying to suppress their drives entirely.

Sexual repression isn’t good for the soul anyway, even if the people doing it are otherwise healthy.

You beat me to it.

107 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:34:32pm

re: #96 albusteve

better than none at all…move on

You support the Pope’s action?

108 Gang of One  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:34:55pm

re: #97 Baier

You big ape.

So now you attack me, or is that just a bad attempt at Darwinian humor?

109 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:35:01pm

Do these priest know that the internet has porn on it?

110 albusteve  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:35:28pm

re: #107 Spare O’Lake

You support the Pope’s action?

as per this post?, no…I didn’t see your deleted post

111 tradewind  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:36:01pm

re: #99 b_sharp
Fields in which people work with children have always been attractive to latent ( and not so) pedophiles…. think coaching, scouts, teaching, and the priesthood/ministry.
For every priest abuser brought to light, I read about a high school principal, or a coach, or a scoutmaster. The difference is in the reaction by the institution when the offender is discovered.

112 albusteve  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:36:03pm

re: #109 Cannadian Club Akbar

Do these priest know that the internet has porn on it?

let’s find out….
INVADE!

113 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:36:14pm

re: #7 Baier

What do you expect from someone (an ex-Nazi at that) who believes we were created by an invisible man in the sky, something rational?

Oh yea of little faith…

114 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:37:09pm

re: #110 albusteve

as per this post?, no…I didn’t see your deleted post

I wasn’t commenting on my deleted post. I was characterizing the Pope’s actions as “damage control gone wild”.
Sheesh.

115 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:37:18pm

re: #109 Cannadian Club Akbar

I forgot my sarc tag. My bad. But I’m with Steve!!

116 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:38:13pm

re: #108 Gang of One

So now you attack me, or is that just a bad attempt at Darwinian humor?

No need to CREATE a big fuss.

117 aurelius  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:39:08pm

re: #99 b_sharp

well said

118 aurelius  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:39:53pm

re: #100 Obdicut

that’s right.. the normal rhythms are off….

119 Gang of One  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:39:59pm

re: #116 Spare O’Lake

No need to CREATE a big fuss.

Oy. You are right, of course. I do not want this thread to EVOLVE into an argument over theosophy.

120 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:40:55pm

re: #111 tradewind

About forty percent of the rape and sexual abuse of children comes from family members. A very large percentage— varying according to survey, but between twenty-five and forty percent— comes from older children. This is, to me, one of the most unreported and unremarked upon forms of child abuse, and it is also one that the report on the Irish Catholic Schools found to be prevalent there as well.

That form of abuse can be a sixteen year old pressuring a twelve year old to do things she/he doesn’t want to, but it is still rape and abuse and just as odious as an adult doing it.

121 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:42:00pm

re: #101 b_sharp

Silly question: How long has the Judaic-Christian-Muslim god been invisible?

Forever.

122 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:42:08pm

re: #119 Gang of One

Oy. You are right, of course. I do not want this thread to EVOLVE into an argument over theosophy.

But one might say that this thread was almost designed, perhaps even intelligently, to provoke such discussion…

123 b_sharp  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:42:23pm

re: #105 darthstar

Ever since Jesus was caught in this pic holding a doobie.

Those guys know how to party.

124 darthstar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:42:54pm

re: #123 b_sharp

Those guys know how to party.

Yes, but they can’t bluff for shit.

125 albusteve  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:43:06pm

re: #114 Spare O’Lake

I wasn’t commenting on my deleted post. I was characterizing the Pope’s actions as “damage control gone wild”.
Sheesh.

went over my head…and yes I would say the whole thing has gone wild…
I have broken a bunch of laws…I’ve been jailed 7 or 8 times, nine days was the longest and I deserved it in all but a couple of cases…I went to jail for domestic assaults I didn’t commit and I’ve gone to jail for brawling with cops, contempt, selling drugs etc…I’ve never complained about any of it really…so there is a hard spot inside me for people who break the law and never pay the penalty…no one is above the law, no one not even a Pope

126 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:43:18pm

re: #123 b_sharp

Those guys know how to party.

Dude, Jesus could turn water into wine. Just sayin’.
/

127 HoosierHoops  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:43:28pm

re: #121 reine.de.tout

Forever.

Nope! We got a burning bush once.
/hope you are well….This is a disturbing subject

128 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:43:28pm

re: #101 b_sharp

Silly question: How long has the Judaic-Christian-Muslim god been invisible?

Actually:
Of course I cannot see Him, but I have felt His presence in my life.
Can’t explain it better than that, so don’t ask.
It’s just how it is

129 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:44:13pm

re: #127 HoosierHoops

Nope! We got a burning bush once.
/hope you are well…This is a disturbing subject

yes it is.
See:
re: #128 reine.de.tout

Actually:
Of course I cannot see Him, but I have felt His presence in my life.
Can’t explain it better than that, so don’t ask.
It’s just how it is

130 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:45:58pm

re: #120 Obdicut

Any child abuse is odious.
But intuitively I would think it could be much more damaging when the perpetrator stands in a position of trust and power to the victim and the victim’s family.

131 RogueOne  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:45:59pm

Hey all, I’m short on time but wanted to see if there had been a conversation during the day regarding the Weigel piece on Big Journalism today. He mentions Charles Johnson in a portion and I’m not sure if he’s talking about “our” CJ or another. If he is I’m wondering what LGF post he might be referring to, it sounds like it’s part of a piece on Van Jones and truthers:


Jones had five years to distance himself from this bullshit. Five years. He didn’t do it. And I can’t believe that a man who spoke at basically every left/liberal event in 2007 and 2008 did not see what the Truthers were up to.

Yes, as [Charles] Johnson points out, they’re liars who try and suck everyone into their orbit. One year ago I was backstage at a Ron Paul event with Kevin Barrett, the lunatic University of Wisconsin professor, who deliriously informed me of all these famous people he’d gotten on board with the Truth movement. He was full of shit–they were people who’d been accosted by Truthers and said nice things to blow them off. Here’s an example of a Truther baiting Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand into indulging his nonsense. (video follows)

Anyone have any insight?

132 garhighway  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:46:12pm

Wildly off topic:

Proposed new law: every BP employee of management status ought to have the live streaming feed of the well blowout on their computer screens all the time.

133 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:46:52pm

re: #104 Thanos

The difference between the cases in the Catholic church vs the fundy cults is that at least the Catholic church recognizes that child abuse is a sin and wrong in principle if not in practice.

This part I have a small problem with. The Catholic Church hierarchy does see it as a sin, but their treatment of priests who have committed abuse shows that they do not consider it a sin worth, say, defrocking priests. Catholicism does not have a black-and-white view of sin, where something is sinful or not, but a gradation of sins; you’ll remember that those involved in arranging for an abortions for women, even to save their lives or in cases of rape, are often excommunicated. Very few pedophile priests have been excommunicated.

So even though the Catholic Hierarchy considers pedophilia sinful, they consider it less sinful than abortion.

134 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:47:02pm

re: #99 b_sharp


In other words, people with predatory desires are drawn to the Church in hopes of overcoming those desires.

And instead they find themselves in an extraordinary position of power from which to carry out their desires.

135 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:47:41pm

This song has reference to a Burning Bush. Love it.

136 HoosierHoops  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:48:37pm

re: #129 reine.de.tout

I always liked these lyrics from Clapton:

I have finally found a way to live
Just like I never could before
I know that I don’t have much to give
But I can open any door

Everybody knows the secret
Everybody knows the score
I have finally found a way to live
In the color of the Lord

I have finally found a place to live
Just like I never could before
And I know I don’t have much to give
But soon I’ll open any door

Everybody knows the secret
Everybody knows the score
I have finally found a place to live
In the presence of the Lord
In the presence of the Lord

137 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:48:39pm

re: #128 reine.de.tout

Actually:
Of course I cannot see Him, but I have felt His presence in my life.
Can’t explain it better than that, so don’t ask.
It’s just how it is

Mortal man cannot envision God, or so it says in the bible, it would be fatal to really see him in person. So the “burning bush” is as close as we get, other than Ezekiel’s vision of God on his throne.

138 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:49:20pm

re: #130 Spare O’Lake

Any child abuse is odious.
But intuitively I would think it could be much more damaging when the perpetrator stands in a position of trust and power to the victim and the victim’s family.

Older children occupy that role as well, though. I’m not in any way minimizing the terribleness of it being a priest, teacher, or other authority figure, but older children are also authority figures to younger children. Everyone remembers the desperate urge to belong and fit in from being a child; abusers who are themselves adolescents exploit those fears and needs, and are often trusted by families and children. Read the sites I linked above for more information.

It is our responsibility as adults to not only safeguard children from abuse from adults, but from other children as well; to shield them from bullying, from harassment, and, sadly, from sexual abuse.

139 aurelius  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:49:51pm

re: #133 Obdicut

this is the part that gets me…

This part I have a small problem with. The Catholic Church hierarchy does see it as a sin, but their treatment of priests who have committed abuse shows that they do not consider it a sin worth, say, defrocking priests. Catholicism does not have a black-and-white view of sin, where something is sinful or not, but a gradation of sins; you’ll remember that those involved in arranging for an abortions for women, even to save their lives or in cases of rape, are often excommunicated. Very few pedophile priests have been excommunicated.

So even though the Catholic Hierarchy considers pedophilia sinful, they consider it less sinful than abortion.

abuse causes lifelong torture and suffering. they must know that. and yet they do not defrock the priests.

WHY?

it doesn’t mean Jesus can’t forgive them, it just means they are really not supposed to be priests.

How hard is that to understand?

140 b_sharp  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:50:43pm

re: #128 reine.de.tout

Actually:
Of course I cannot see Him, but I have felt His presence in my life.
Can’t explain it better than that, so don’t ask.
It’s just how it is

My brothers say the same thing. IMHO, electrical impulses and/or chemicals can give the same feeling of presence.

We’ll have to explore this someday reine, if only to increase our understanding of the other side.

141 albusteve  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:51:08pm

re: #136 HoosierHoops

I always liked these lyrics from Clapton:

I have finally found a way to live
Just like I never could before
I know that I don’t have much to give
But I can open any door

Everybody knows the secret
Everybody knows the score
I have finally found a way to live
In the color of the Lord

I have finally found a place to live
Just like I never could before
And I know I don’t have much to give
But soon I’ll open any door

Everybody knows the secret
Everybody knows the score
I have finally found a place to live
In the presence of the Lord
In the presence of the Lord

the first song he ever wrote entirely by himself…factoid

142 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:52:28pm

re: #138 Obdicut

Agree 101%

143 aurelius  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:52:44pm

and yes I understand they are running out of priest material these days…

but this whole mess is part of that reason….

and if you let people in who are better able to route sexuality in acceptable ways, then you can have more priests.

I don’t know, seems open and shut to me.

frankly, raid their graves, belgian boys. You got the green light from me.

and benedict, you can stuff it.

144 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:54:36pm

re: #133 Obdicut

This part I have a small problem with. The Catholic Church hierarchy does see it as a sin, but their treatment of priests who have committed abuse shows that they do not consider it a sin worth, say, defrocking priests. Catholicism does not have a black-and-white view of sin, where something is sinful or not, but a gradation of sins; you’ll remember that those involved in arranging for an abortions for women, even to save their lives or in cases of rape, are often excommunicated. Very few pedophile priests have been excommunicated.

So even though the Catholic Hierarchy considers pedophilia sinful, they consider it less sinful than abortion.

And I don’t see it that way, they are equivalent IMO.

145 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:56:26pm

re: #144 reine.de.tout

And I don’t see it that way, they are equivalent IMO.

Um…

Are you saying someone who has gotten an abortion is, in your eyes, as sinful as someone who has raped a child?

Is sinfulness somehow detached from the degree of evilness of the act?

146 ryannon  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 2:57:05pm

re: #119 Gang of One

Oy. You are right, of course. I do not want this thread to EVOLVE into an argument over theosophy.

That’s an INTELLIGENT choice, given the overall DESIGN of the theme at hand.

147 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 3:00:38pm

re: #143 aurelius

and yes I understand they are running out of priest material these days…

but this whole mess is part of that reason…

and if you let people in who are better able to route sexuality in acceptable ways, then you can have more priests.

I don’t know, seems open and shut to me.

frankly, raid their graves, belgian boys. You got the green light from me.

and benedict, you can stuff it.

Yes, but this business of gathering evidence against a dead prelate from his grave when he obviously can’t be prosecuted does sound kind of creepy, though. Hopefully there is a valid reason for that particular search - maybe they are looking for evidence of a cover-up.

148 tradewind  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 3:00:45pm

re: #132 garhighway
There’s that symbolism over substance thing again.
It’d be much more helpful to have them sitting not in front of computers, but out in the field working to stop the problem.

149 tradewind  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 3:03:22pm

re: #145 Obdicut
In the Christian faith, it doesn’t matter what you consider to be the ‘worse ’ sin. That’s for law and society.
A sin is a sin is a sin, with the exception of renouncing God Himself.

150 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 3:06:05pm

re: #149 tradewind

That is not true, at all.

For one thing, the Catholic Doctrine regards some sins as venial, others as mortal.

For another, the Catholic Doctrine allows priests to give penance based on the individual sinful act’s severity.

151 garhighway  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 3:06:20pm

re: #148 tradewind

There’s that symbolism over substance thing again.
It’d be much more helpful to have them sitting not in front of computers, but out in the field working to stop the problem.

I’m not saying they would be chained to their desks. But if they ARE at their desks, they should have to look at it.

152 RogueOne  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 3:08:28pm

I have to run. If anyone knows if Weigel is talking about CJ/LGF or another Charles Johnson I’d appreciate someone filling me in.

153 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 3:26:14pm

re: #152 RogueOne

Yes, he was talking about me.

154 LotharBot  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 3:29:04pm

re: #41 Thanos

When FLDS churches (Jeffs) molested children in a organized manner, heads of the organizations and perpetrators went to jail…. Shouldn’t we treat organized long running abuse and coverup by Catholic churches the same way that FLDS was handled?

The standard used in the Jeffs case was pretty straightforward: he arranged and/or presided over “marriages” for underaged girls. This made him fairly directly responsible — not as “head of the organization” but as “the guy arranging for the abuse to happen” (the actual charge was accomplice to rape.)

The same should be done for the Catholic church. No arrests simply for being “the head of the organization”, but for those who explicitly put known abusers into positions where they could abuse, they should be held responsible as accomplices.

155 Bagua  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 3:50:42pm

re: #9 LudwigVanQuixote

Good lord, serious question what percentage of priests are pedophiles? Everyone would like to believe it is some tiny fraction, but there is major case after major case all across the world and they do not stop producing new ones.

Are we talking thousands of priests doing this? Are we talking tens of thousands? Are we talking hundreds of thousands? Does anyone have reliable numbers on this that could get us even within a factor of 2?

The John Jay Study reported 4% in the US 1950-2002.

The Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) reports 4.3%, or 5% of diocesan priests from 1960-1996.

Our analyses revealed little variability in the rates of alledged abuse acroos regions of the Catholic Church in the US - the range was from 3% to 6% of priests.

The pope has stated
“We know now that in the last 50 years somewhere between 1.5% and 5% of the Catholic clergy has been involved in sexual abuse cases”

156 LotharBot  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 3:51:03pm

re: #128 reine.de.tout

Of course I cannot see Him, but I have felt His presence in my life.

I can top that: I’ve been given specific instructions during prayer, as have several others I know.

Examples:
- having an argument with a girl online. She was saying some really mean things about me. I was praying, and was planning to leave the conversation and put her on my block list, but God told me to stay. We’ve now been happily married for almost 8 years.
- her dad once went to a friend’s house to meet with a group that was working on planting a church. Only, the meeting wasn’t at the house; they’d moved it and forgot to tell him. He prayed, and God gave him turn-by-turn directions to the restaurant where they were meeting (he was new in town and had never been in the area or heard of the restaurant.) He went inside, didn’t see them, left, and God told him “go back there and look harder.” He finally found them way in the back of the restaurant, out of sight of the front door.
- another friend, who was a pastor (and wasn’t being paid; the church was going through a transition/split/relocation) had been trying to figure out a plan to get his son some Warhammer figurines he’d been asking for, for Christmas. One day a guy walked into the church office with several hundred dollars worth of WH figurines from the right army, painted in the kid’s chosen colors. He explained that he’d been praying and God told him to give his Warhammer figurines to a church, and to look in the phone book to figure out which one (the church was the first alphabetically.)

I’ve got about a dozen stories of this same type, all sharing the same characteristics: (1) they came first-hand from one of the people involved, (2) the person is a trusted friend, (3) they involve getting specific directions during prayer, (4) the directions were not things the person would have normally done, and (5) following them led to something surprising or impressive.

God may be invisible, but He’s not completely hidden.

157 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 3:53:44pm

re: #146 ryannon

That’s an INTELLIGENT choice, given the overall DESIGN of the theme at hand.

*Cough again*

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Man I sure am developing a bad cough around here tonight…

/

158 Michael Orion Powell  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 9:50:45pm

The Pope literally thinks that he is above the law.

159 Sacred Plants  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 2:44:10am

It is unwise to assume that law enforcement was above the Church, could be that Jews need to be hidden in the attic or God knows what. In this particular instance, it also appears unrealistic to attribute the Belgian police a higher standard of integrity than the Belgian clerics, and unhinged panic should remain a highly questionable advisor when it comes to modifications as far-reaching as a reversal of the relationship between these two groups. If that was to be implemented as a general principle, the Pope would have to turn the notorious scandal bishop from his own backyard over to Merkel, who then could hire Geller and Spencer to prepare commandos to fly Santo style assaults against the illegal ordinations of the Lefebvre frat. Good luck with that. The fact of the matter is once the Church renounces the sanctifications of known abusers, those individuals are so vulnerable that the kids can decide themselves what they might request from law enforcment, or not.

160 Sacred Plants  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 2:52:31am

re: #52 LudwigVanQuixote

Uh, no. Christoph Schoenborn is a back-paddling creationist exploiting the needs of the victims for his own purposes.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
A Closer Look at the Eastman State Bar DecisionTaking a few minutes away from work things to read through the Eastman decision. As I'm sure many of you know, Eastman was my law school con law professor. I knew him pretty well because I was also running in ...
KGxvi
2 hours ago
Views: 70 • Comments: 1 • Rating: 1