Rick Santorum: Obama is ‘Detached From the American Experience’

Former Senator Rick Santorum gave an interview to the Iowa Republican blog last Friday, and said the reason why President Obama “doesn’t connect” with ordinary Americans is that he isn’t really an American.

Obama is detached form the American experience.  He just doesn’t identify with the average American because of his own background.  Indonesia and Hawaii.  His view is from the viewpoint of academics and the halls of the Ivy league schools that he went to and it’s not a love of this country and an understanding of the basic values and wants and desires of it’s people.  And as a result of that, he doesn’t connect with people at that level.

It’s not Birtherism, exactly, but it smells a lot like it — and that’s the point. Far right politicians like Santorum know how to use the phrases that will encourage the kooks, but still allow them to deny they’re encouraging the kooks. And the notion that Obama isn’t really an American plays right into the Birther craziness.

Santorum, of course, is also famous for being in the pocket of the creationist “think tank” known as the Discovery Institute, and worked hard while he was in Washington to sneak creationism into public school science classes under the “intelligent design” disguise.

But he isn’t just a religious fanatic, a creationist, and a far right panderer to Birthers; he is also a deeply weird human being.

Karen Santorum wrote a book about the experience: Letters to Gabriel: The True Story of Gabriel Michael Santorum.[11] In it, she writes that the couple brought the deceased infant home from the hospital and introduced the dead child to their living children as “your brother Gabriel” and slept with the body overnight before returning it to the hospital. The anecdote was also written about by Michael Sokolove in a 2005 New York Times Magazine story on Santorum.[1] Karen is also the author of a book on etiquette for children.

This is the guy who’s criticizing President Obama for not being an “average American.”

(Hat tip: Iowa Independent.)

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396 comments

1 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 2:53:05pm

okay…so what’s an “average American” Rick?….be careful

2 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 2:54:15pm

I read a poll this morning….13% of Americans believe BO was born outside the country

3 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 2:54:39pm
He just doesn’t identify with the average American because of his own background. Indonesia and Hawaii.


How does his background being Hawai’i seperate him from the average American, at all?

Is it because Hawai’i is a majority non-white state?

I can’t think of any other reason.

And…

His view is from the viewpoint of academics and the halls of the Ivy league schools that he went to and it’s not a love of this country and an understanding of the basic values and wants and desires of it’s people.

This is an entirely contradictory argument to the first one. Most Hawaiians don’t wind up as academics or going to Ivy league schools. Nor do most Indonesians.

What a load.

4 garhighway  Jun 28, 2010 2:56:30pm

re: #3 Obdicut

This is an entirely contradictory argument to the first one. Most Hawaiians don’t wind up as academics or going to Ivy league schools. Nor do most Indonesians.

What a load.

Or…

he went to an Ivy, so he doesn’t love his country.

Funny, didn’t hear that about the Bushes.

What a jackass.

5 Charles Johnson  Jun 28, 2010 2:57:42pm

Santorum introduced a dead baby to his family, then slept with it overnight.

And he’s criticizing Obama for not being “an ordinary American.”

6 RogueOne  Jun 28, 2010 2:57:50pm

re: #3 Obdicut

You can’t think of anything else that separates Hawaii from the rest of us other than race?

maps.google.com

7 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 2:59:12pm

re: #6 RogueOne

You can’t think of anything else that separates Hawaii from the rest of us other than race?

[Link: maps.google.com…]

the more unique your background, the more American it is…Rick missed this one by a mile

8 RogueOne  Jun 28, 2010 2:59:27pm

re: #5 Charles

Did you happen to see my post in the previous thread? I’m wondering if Weigel is talking about you in this instance and if so, what thread might he be talking about?

re: #131 RogueOne

9 darthstar  Jun 28, 2010 2:59:55pm

I know first hand that losing a child in pregnancy is a devastating experience, and in childbirth must be equally, if not more so, devastating. But I couldn’t imagine bringing a dead child home to show to other children. That’s just wrong in my book.

10 aurelius  Jun 28, 2010 3:00:00pm

I’ll give him a pass on the kid. Can’t imagine the emotions. Anything at that moment is OK by me.

11 RogueOne  Jun 28, 2010 3:00:58pm

re: #7 albusteve

the more unique your background, the more American it is…Rick missed this one by a mile

It’s the same argument we heard today during the Kagan hearings. Santorum is more than a little odd but I understand his point. I just heard Chris Matthews say basically the same thing without the focus on geography.

12 darthstar  Jun 28, 2010 3:01:11pm

re: #5 Charles

Santorum introduced a dead baby to his family, then slept with it overnight.

And he’s criticizing Obama for not being “an ordinary American.”

That’s just sick, and I can’t think of a rational reason why anyone would do that. But you know you’re going to get Geller and others to go after you for ‘attacking a dead infant’ or some other such nonsense.

13 wrenchwench  Jun 28, 2010 3:01:39pm

Wingnuts support the Constitution 100%, except for a couple of amendments, and now some states are less American than others.

Keep it up.

14 darthstar  Jun 28, 2010 3:01:51pm

re: #2 albusteve

I read a poll this morning…13% of Americans believe BO was born outside the country

That includes my father, unfortunately.

15 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 3:02:05pm

re: #6 RogueOne

Rest of who? You’re free to go to Hawai’i. You seriously think that what Sanatorum meant is that Hawai’i is an island?

Everywhere has geographical differences from everywhere else. What the hell does that matter? It’s all still America.

Is Sanatorum saying that Palin is divorced from the average American because she’s from Alaska?

What definition of average American excludes Hawaiians from being average Americans? “Living in a place where Instead of driving to get there you have to fly or take a boat”? That’s beyond flimsy.

Might as well say that people who live in areas that don’t get snow aren’t average Americans because the majority of the population lives in places where you get snow.

16 Randall Gross  Jun 28, 2010 3:02:13pm

re: #5 Charles

That’s just severely sick and twisted at so many levels.

17 garhighway  Jun 28, 2010 3:02:27pm

re: #6 RogueOne

You can’t think of anything else that separates Hawaii from the rest of us other than race?

[Link: maps.google.com…]

Volcanos? No, the Pacific Northwest has those.

Great beaches? No, California and FL do well there.

Palm trees? No, Cal has lots of those.

Far away from the rest of the US? Nope: Alaska has that, too.

Gee, what could it be?

18 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 3:02:38pm

re: #9 darthstar

I know first hand that losing a child in pregnancy is a devastating experience, and in childbirth must be equally, if not more so, devastating. But I couldn’t imagine bringing a dead child home to show to other children. That’s just wrong in my book.

quaint, to say the least…did he put rouge on it’s cheeks?

19 goddamnedfrank  Jun 28, 2010 3:02:49pm

According to Santorum the American Experience also means opposing gay marriage as a by product of being deeply worried about man on dog action.

Dude has issues.

20 Spare O'Lake  Jun 28, 2010 3:04:02pm
It’s not Birtherism, exactly, but it smells a lot like it — and that’s the point.

How is this kind of shit not thinly veiled racism?

21 darthstar  Jun 28, 2010 3:04:50pm

re: #19 goddamnedfrank

According to Santorum the American Experience also means opposing gay marriage as a by product of being deeply worried about man on dog action.

Dude has issues.

Heh…google “Santorum” and spreadingsantorum.com still comes up as the first hit.

google.com

22 Cannadian Club Akbar  Jun 28, 2010 3:06:14pm

I must go, but I spotted a “D” thread comment in the top 10. BBIAB.
(kinda fits here with the Ricky subject. Heh)

23 RogueOne  Jun 28, 2010 3:07:20pm

re: #15 Obdicut

Hawaiins are “average” americans about as much as Alaskans are. Their unique, different. Not only isn’t there anything wrong with that (nor does it make them “less american”) but it also makes them special. I’ve never been one to run in a crowd or care what others think of me so maybe you and I are a bit different that way. Trying to argue that Hawaiins are the same as Hoosiers or Buckeys is pretty weak.

Regardless, that wasn’t the point I got from reading the Santorum quote. Obama has been criticized by the right and left for being detached and too professorial. I don’t see anything really that different in Santorums critique.

24 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 3:07:22pm

re: #20 Spare O’Lake

How is this kind of shit not thinly veiled racism?

you’d have to ask the individual….not everything boils down to racism…I don’t give a shit where BO came from, too late for that stuff, we have a busted economy and geopolitical problems to deal with and if BO can function as POTUS he could be the Shiek of Ararby for all I care…I would like to see his college records tho

25 tradewind  Jun 28, 2010 3:08:06pm

re: #3 Obdicut
That’s a little disingenuous. Even Hawaii citizens refer to ’ the Mainland’, just as Alaskans refer to ’ the Lower 48’. Sure they are Americans, but their experience is undeniably different.

26 Charles Johnson  Jun 28, 2010 3:08:11pm

And of course, because this post mentions creationism, Google Adsense is now serving ads from creationist websites.

They seem to have lots of money to spread their Dark Ages garbage.

27 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 3:09:39pm

re: #23 RogueOne

Hawaiins are “average” americans about as much as Alaskans are. Their unique, different.

By what criteria are they different, Rogue?

Trying to argue that Hawaiins are the same as Hoosiers or Buckeys is pretty weak.

Make an argument then, showing how it’s weak. You haven’t.

Regardless, that wasn’t the point I got from reading the Santorum quote. Obama has been criticized by the right and left for being detached and too professorial. I don’t see anything really that different in Santorums critique.

So you’re just ignoring the Indonesia and Hawaii bit?

28 Bubblehead II  Jun 28, 2010 3:09:52pm

Afternoon Lizards. Just finished my last morning of Graves by pulling a 12 hr shift. Now I need to stay awake for the next 5 hrs so I can get back on my regular schedule.

29 Charles Johnson  Jun 28, 2010 3:10:11pm

re: #23 RogueOne

Hey, guess what?

I’m from Hawaii. And you’re full of shit. Hawaiians are Americans just like the citizens of any other state, and I find it frankly insulting of you to suggest otherwise.

30 tradewind  Jun 28, 2010 3:12:17pm

Re the Santorum baby… You could probably find psychologists who have no religious affiliation at all, not just far- right ones, who would support that admittedly unusual choice as a way of accepting and finding closure for a family.
Not my choice, but I don’t think it has anything to do with Santorum’s political qualification or lack of it.

31 PT Barnum  Jun 28, 2010 3:12:55pm

re: #23 RogueOne

Regardless, that wasn’t the point I got from reading the Santorum quote. Obama has been criticized by the right and left for being detached and too professorial. I don’t see anything really that different in Santorums critique.

We know how voting for someone because you want to have a beer with them turned out, don’t we?

32 Charles Johnson  Jun 28, 2010 3:13:02pm

re: #30 tradewind

Re the Santorum baby… You could probably find psychologists who have no religious affiliation at all, not just far- right ones, who would support that admittedly unusual choice as a way of accepting and finding closure for a family.
Not my choice, but I don’t think it has anything to do with Santorum’s political qualification or lack of it.

In an earlier thread, you’re making excuses for Drudge Report linking to Alex Jones.

Is there anything you won’t make excuses for?

33 tradewind  Jun 28, 2010 3:13:03pm

re: #27 Obdicut
You can’t deny that Obama’s early world view was shaped by elementary school in Indonesia. He’s said as much in speeches.

34 PT Barnum  Jun 28, 2010 3:13:39pm

re: #30 tradewind

Re the Santorum baby… You could probably find psychologists who have no religious affiliation at all, not just far- right ones, who would support that admittedly unusual choice as a way of accepting and finding closure for a family.
Not my choice, but I don’t think it has anything to do with Santorum’s political qualification or lack of it.

No, but it probably has a lot to do with whether the guy should be allowed to be out walking the streets..

35 tnguitarist  Jun 28, 2010 3:14:16pm

re: #33 tradewind

You can’t deny that Obama’s early world view was shaped by elementary school in Indonesia. He’s said as much in speeches.

So?

36 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 3:14:32pm

I can’t think of any criteria whereby Hawaiians are disqualified from being average Americans except 2:

1. The very meaningless “Not part of mainland US”, which is absurd in an era where we can fly to get to our destinations anyway. If I want to get to New York from CA, I get on a plane. Sure, the states are different, but the inhabitants of the states? I don’t see how that transfers at all.

2. Hawaii is majority non-white, whereas America as a whole is majority white.

37 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 3:14:37pm

re: #34 PT Barnum

No, but it probably has a lot to do with whether the guy should be allowed to be out walking the streets..

heh

38 RogueOne  Jun 28, 2010 3:15:17pm

re: #27 Obdicut

No, I’m actually referring to the hawaii part. Lets try this, we are not all the same. Regardless of the need to feel part of the group we are individuals first. I’m not like you anymore than I’m like Albusteve. Our experiences are different, what makes us who we are are completely different. Obama has a different upbringing than the average american, it is what makes him “him”. It’s the same with military brats who have had the opportunites to travel and experience life differently than their counterparts who are stuck never leaving the counties of their births. If you don’t know the difference between growing up in Dayton OH and Honolulu, I don’t know what to tell you.

39 darthstar  Jun 28, 2010 3:15:19pm

re: #33 tradewind

You can’t deny that Obama’s early world view was shaped by elementary school in Indonesia. He’s said as much in speeches.

Yeah…They didn’t teach ‘take dead babies home to horrify the siblings’ in the Madrassa. Living abroad does shape one’s world view. I’ve lived abroad twice in my life (Once in high school, and once as an adult).

40 Randall Gross  Jun 28, 2010 3:16:10pm

re: #23 RogueOne

Both my wife and I are from Alaska, we are Americans and not that different. Besides that, unlike some denizens of some Southern States, we still want to be Americans.

41 tradewind  Jun 28, 2010 3:16:32pm

re: #32 Charles
I’m not excusing anything. Having lost a pregnancy at a stage that was inexplicable, to my doctors as well as myself, I know that every woman reacts differently, and I have a hard time judging Karen Santorum.

42 Sionainn  Jun 28, 2010 3:16:45pm

re: #33 tradewind

You can’t deny that Obama’s early world view was shaped by elementary school in Indonesia. He’s said as much in speeches.

You mean shaped as in realizing there is more to the world than just the United States? How is that a bad thing?

43 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 3:17:04pm

re: #33 tradewind

You can’t deny that Obama’s early world view was shaped by elementary school in Indonesia. He’s said as much in speeches.

… and?

Yes, the ‘average American’ didn’t spend any time in Indonesia. The ‘average American’ is also not, say, Jewish. I am. Does that mean I’m not part of ‘average America’?

Define what the fuck an “average American” is, please, in the context of Santorum’s statements. To me, this usage of it clear identity politics at its worst.

44 tnguitarist  Jun 28, 2010 3:17:15pm

re: #38 RogueOne

The implication is that Hawaii is somehow “lesser”. You insinuated as much in your #23.

45 Randall Gross  Jun 28, 2010 3:17:45pm

My early schooling was in Germany - I was bilingual until we headed back to the states. Does that make me less american? Does that make my sisters less american?

46 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 3:18:18pm

re: #38 RogueOne

By those criteria, Rogue, nobody is an average American. Nobody. We are all different.

Define what an “average American” is, in the context of Santorum’s remarks.

47 tradewind  Jun 28, 2010 3:18:30pm

re: #42 Sionainn
It’s not, necessarily.
I don’t think that Obama himself would say that he had a typical American childhood, nor do I think that that fact itself disqualifies him from being a good president. In fact, it’s incidental.

48 RogueOne  Jun 28, 2010 3:18:35pm

re: #29 Charles

Hey, guess what?

I’m from Hawaii. And you’re full of shit. Hawaiians are Americans just like the citizens of any other state, and I find it frankly insulting of you to suggest otherwise.

I never suggested they weren’t americans, I said they weren’t average americans. I also don’t see that as bad. I’ll tell you what, I grew up in Detroit and Cincinnati and I can guarantee that the opportunities/experiences you had growing up in hawaii were completely different than the way I grew up.

49 PT Barnum  Jun 28, 2010 3:18:55pm

re: #45 Thanos

My early schooling was in Germany - I was bilingual until we headed back to the states. Does that make me less american? Does that make my sisters less american?

According to people like Santorum, if you are
1) non-white
2) non-Christian
3) non suburban or rural

You are non Real Amerikun

50 tnguitarist  Jun 28, 2010 3:18:59pm

re: #45 Thanos

My early schooling was in Germany - I was bilingual until we headed back to the states. Does that make me less american? Does that make my sisters less american?

I guess it depends on if they agree with what you stand for.//

51 Charles Johnson  Jun 28, 2010 3:19:02pm

I’m no longer surprised, but I have to say it’s really sad that there are people at LGF who think it’s appropriate to say something like this about the President of the United States.

52 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 3:19:13pm

as uniquely different as regions are, I don’t think one is more American than another…even the wide range of lifestyles can’t change that…millionaires get up and go to work just like the hotel maid

53 Sionainn  Jun 28, 2010 3:19:40pm

re: #47 tradewind

It’s not, necessarily.
I don’t think that Obama himself would say that he had a typical American childhood, nor do I think that that fact itself disqualifies him from being a good president. In fact, it’s incidental.

Then why bring it up?

54 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 28, 2010 3:19:55pm

re: #5 Charles

Santorum introduced a dead baby to his family, then slept with it overnight.

And he’s criticizing Obama for not being “an ordinary American.”

It’s extremely creepy, but actually was a common practice in the 19th century.

55 tradewind  Jun 28, 2010 3:20:28pm

re: #43 Obdicut
No thanks. This is clearly an argument that depends upon interpreting and mind reading, and you may think that you can read mine, but I’m not playin’.

56 tnguitarist  Jun 28, 2010 3:20:28pm

re: #48 RogueOne

Completely different? Yes, but saying that they aren’t average is saying that they are less American.

57 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 3:20:31pm

re: #40 Thanos

Both my wife and I are from Alaska, we are Americans and not that different. Besides that, unlike some denizens of some Southern States, we still want to be Americans.

papers please…

58 Randall Gross  Jun 28, 2010 3:21:31pm

re: #54 Alouette

It’s extremely creepy, but actually was a common practice in the 19th century.

Yes, and these throwback luddite theocrats belong back in the 19th century not the modern world. They obviously have trouble coping with it.

59 RogueOne  Jun 28, 2010 3:21:36pm

re: #44 tnguitarist

The implication is that Hawaii is somehow “lesser”. You insinuated as much in your #23.

Then re-read my 23 with the following post. We’re different, all of us. Growing up in CA is completely different than growing up in TN. Growing up in KS is completely different than growing up Alaska. Being a military brat and living in germany/italy gives you a completely different insight than the kids in OH.

60 PT Barnum  Jun 28, 2010 3:21:37pm

re: #53 Sionainn

Then why bring it up?


Because the fact that someone with Obama’s background is President threatens their limited worldview.

61 Spare O'Lake  Jun 28, 2010 3:21:45pm

re: #23 RogueOne

Indonesia = Muslim: Unamerican
Hawaii = Native: Unamerican
Academia = Smartass intellectual: Unamerican
Ivy leaguer = Elitist: Unamerican
Santorum is a populist racist.

62 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 3:21:54pm

re: #45 Thanos

My early schooling was in Germany - I was bilingual until we headed back to the states. Does that make me less american? Does that make my sisters less american?

Germany?
papers please

63 Charles Johnson  Jun 28, 2010 3:22:04pm

re: #54 Alouette

It’s extremely creepy, but actually was a common practice in the 19th century.

Which is exactly where Rick Santorum wants to bring the US.

64 RogueOne  Jun 28, 2010 3:22:24pm

re: #45 Thanos

My early schooling was in Germany - I was bilingual until we headed back to the states. Does that make me less american? Does that make my sisters less american?

I hope you’re not referring to anything I’ve said because I’ve been saying the exact opposite.

65 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 3:22:30pm

re: #55 tradewind

I haven’t in the least bit claimed to be able to read your mind at all. Where did that come from?

66 darthstar  Jun 28, 2010 3:22:37pm

re: #63 Charles

Which is exactly where Rick Santorum wants to bring the US.

beat me to it…

67 webevintage  Jun 28, 2010 3:23:04pm

WTH?
Just what the hell is a “regular American” or the “American experience” anyway?
Are they only Christian or only live in small towns or only white or maybe they have never traveled outside the US.
Did their families get here before 1920?
Just what makes someone a “regular American”?

And Santorum is a bastard who needs to STFU…

68 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Jun 28, 2010 3:23:07pm

re: #23 RogueOne

Hawaiins are “average” americans about as much as Alaskans are. Their unique, different. Not only isn’t there anything wrong with that (nor does it make them “less american”) but it also makes them special. I’ve never been one to run in a crowd or care what others think of me so maybe you and I are a bit different that way. Trying to argue that Hawaiins are the same as Hoosiers or Buckeys is pretty weak.

Regardless, that wasn’t the point I got from reading the Santorum quote. Obama has been criticized by the right and left for being detached and too professorial. I don’t see anything really that different in Santorums critique.

If you can’t see the obvious racist “othering” in the Frothy Mixture’s comment, you’re pretty much beyond reach here.

“detached from the American experience” That’s a pigfuck thing for Santorum to say. The dude’s saying crazy things for the benefit of crazy people.

69 Sionainn  Jun 28, 2010 3:23:28pm

re: #54 Alouette

It’s extremely creepy, but actually was a common practice in the 19th century.

Yes, I’ve seen some of those photos in museums. Definitely creepy…and my eldest daughter’s first photo looked like that. She absolutely refused to open her eyes.

70 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 3:23:51pm

re: #59 RogueOne

Then what does ‘average American’ actually mean, Rogue, in the context of Santorum’s remarks?

I like what you’re saying about all of us being unique. Unfortunately, it’s irreconcilable with what Santorum said. What you’re saying is that there’s no such thing as an average American. That’s clearly not what Santorum believes.

71 elizajane  Jun 28, 2010 3:24:14pm

re: #2 albusteve

I read a poll this morning…13% of Americans believe BO was born outside the country

According to that same poll, 2% think that he was born in Kansas. I was puzzled for a moment, and then I realized that they did not know the difference between Kansas and Kenya.
Are they the same ones, though, who do not think that Hawaii is a state?
This poll could be as much about Americans’ stone ignorance of geography as it is about anything else.

72 Sionainn  Jun 28, 2010 3:24:39pm

re: #60 PT Barnum

Because the fact that someone with Obama’s background is President threatens their limited worldview.

It’s one of the reasons why I liked him. :-)

73 tradewind  Jun 28, 2010 3:25:15pm

re: #53 Sionainn
Probably for the same reason that someone would bring up those bitter folks in PA who love their guns and cling to religion. To try to sway a group to a particular point of view.
Both sides play.

74 garhighway  Jun 28, 2010 3:25:21pm

re: #59 RogueOne

Then re-read my 23 with the following post. We’re different, all of us. Growing up in CA is completely different than growing up in TN. Growing up in KS is completely different than growing up Alaska. Being a military brat and living in germany/italy gives you a completely different insight than the kids in OH.

OK. So which of those places leaves you unable to “identify with the average American” ? Santorum didn’t mention TN or CA or KS. Do you think he should have? Or do you think his singling out Hawaii was right?

75 aurelius  Jun 28, 2010 3:25:51pm

re: #71 elizajane

According to that same poll, 2% think that he was born in Kansas. I was puzzled for a moment, and then I realized that they did not know the difference between Kansas and Kenya.
Are they the same ones, though, who do not think that Hawaii is a state?
This poll could be as much about Americans’ stone ignorance of geography as it is about anything else.

wasn’t his mother’s family from around there?

76 wrenchwench  Jun 28, 2010 3:25:54pm

Some more details:

[…]

Karen Santorum, a former nurse and a nonpracticing attorney

[…]

The childbirth in 1996 was a source of terrible heartbreak — the couple were told by doctors early in the pregnancy that the baby Karen was carrying had a fatal defect and would survive only for a short time outside the womb. According to Karen Santorum’s book, ”Letters to Gabriel: The True Story of Gabriel Michael Santorum,” she later developed a life-threatening intrauterine infection and a fever that reached nearly 105 degrees. She went into labor when she was 20 weeks pregnant. After resisting at first, she allowed doctors to give her the drug Pitocin to speed the birth. Gabriel lived just two hours.

What happened after the death is a kind of snapshot of a cultural divide. Some would find it discomforting, strange, even ghoulish — others brave and deeply spiritual. Rick and Karen Santorum would not let the morgue take the corpse of their newborn; they slept that night in the hospital with their lifeless baby between them. The next day, they took him home. ”Your siblings could not have been more excited about you!” Karen writes in the book, which takes the form of letters to Gabriel, mostly while he is in utero. ”Elizabeth and Johnny held you with so much love and tenderness. Elizabeth proudly announced to everyone as she cuddled you, ‘This is my baby brother, Gabriel; he is an angel.’ ”

[…]

77 prairiefire  Jun 28, 2010 3:25:56pm

I’m not an expert, but I think that the episode with their dead sibling had the potential to be very traumatic to the Santorum children. Perhaps it was therapeutic. I guess we will have to wait for the tell all book from that generation.

78 tnguitarist  Jun 28, 2010 3:25:59pm

re: #59 RogueOne

Then re-read my 23 with the following post. We’re different, all of us. Growing up in CA is completely different than growing up in TN. Growing up in KS is completely different than growing up Alaska. Being a military brat and living in germany/italy gives you a completely different insight than the kids in OH.

I think you need to read 23 again. You implied that people from Alaska or Hawaii aren’t “average” while folks from Indiana and Ohio are. What is an average American anyway? I’d like to see the definition. If you’re going to argue that we’re all different, then why make that statement in the first place?

79 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Jun 28, 2010 3:26:08pm

re: #38 RogueOne

No, I’m actually referring to the hawaii part. Lets try this, we are not all the same. Regardless of the need to feel part of the group we are individuals first. I’m not like you anymore than I’m like Albusteve. Our experiences are different, what makes us who we are are completely different. Obama has a different upbringing than the average american, it is what makes him “him”. It’s the same with military brats who have had the opportunites to travel and experience life differently than their counterparts who are stuck never leaving the counties of their births. If you don’t know the difference between growing up in Dayton OH and Honolulu, I don’t know what to tell you.

Right, we’re not all the same, but some of us are more American than others?

This retarded fiction that the middle of the country are more indicative of real Americans is fucking cracked. There is no average. The population is concentrated ON THE COASTS OF AMERICA, MAN. So if you want to play this stupid average game, a guy from New York or LA is more “average”. But this isn’t about that, it’s about tribalism, and archetypes and stuff sold to you by bad movies and bad TV and bad Ford truck commercials. icons created by marketing departments to sell shoes and hamburgers and V10 Tritons.

And you’re swallowing it all. Congrats!

80 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 3:26:24pm

I think there is some misunderstanding here…relax

81 RogueOne  Jun 28, 2010 3:27:04pm

re: #70 Obdicut

Then what does ‘average American’ actually mean, Rogue, in the context of Santorum’s remarks?

I like what you’re saying about all of us being unique. Unfortunately, it’s irreconcilable with what Santorum said. What you’re saying is that there’s no such thing as an average American. That’s clearly not what Santorum believes.

I’m really running late and my wife is starting to hound me but I do think there is an “average” american. Most americans never move, most never get to experience anything other than what has been going on in their narrow geographical areas for generations. Average is boring, landlocked. Others are seeing some code words for racism in there that I’m not seeing. Unless there is evidence of Santorums racism I’m going to go with his actual statement and not read between the lines looking for things that aren’t there.

82 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 3:27:19pm

re: #25 tradewind

That’s a little disingenuous. Even Hawaii citizens refer to ’ the Mainland’, just as Alaskans refer to ’ the Lower 48’. Sure they are Americans, but their experience is undeniably different.

Different than whose? My experience in San Francisco was very different from my experience in Boston or my experience in North Carolina or my experience in England.

We refer to the South, New England, the Heartland, and lots of other regions too; why is Hawaii different? And what is Hawaii different from?

83 Sionainn  Jun 28, 2010 3:27:57pm

re: #73 tradewind

Probably for the same reason that someone would bring up those bitter folks in PA who love their guns and cling to religion. To try to sway a group to a particular point of view.
Both sides play.

That’s no kind of answer.

84 Gus  Jun 28, 2010 3:27:58pm

The dead baby thing is a new one for me. I knew Santorum was the square of squares but now he’s Mr. Strange.

Santorum is attached to the “American experience” alright. The one from 1810. I wonder if he practices any bloodletting.

85 elizajane  Jun 28, 2010 3:28:32pm

re: #5 Charles

People do all sorts of weird things when they lose a child at birth. I knew a mother—in nice, liberal Holland—who lay in her hospital bed with her dead child in her arms for hours and had all the friends and family (including children) come in to pay their respects. I thought it was seriously creepy, but I don’t want to pass judgment on people who are completely torn apart by grief.
Writing the book about it is what kills me. Sort of like, oh, making your Downs Syndrome kid a prop on the campaign trail.

86 RogueOne  Jun 28, 2010 3:28:50pm

re: #79 WindUpBird

Right, we’re not all the same, but some of us are more American than others?

No. Some of you are more “average” than others. Luckily I don’t count myself as average or even close to the norm. That’s something I would expect you, of all people on this board, to understand.

87 Spare O'Lake  Jun 28, 2010 3:29:07pm

re: #81 RogueOne

I’m really running late and my wife is starting to hound me but I do think there is an “average” american. Most americans never move, most never get to experience anything other than what has been going on in their narrow geographical areas for generations. Average is boring, landlocked. Others are seeing some code words for racism in there that I’m not seeing. Unless there is evidence of Santorums racism I’m going to go with his actual statement and not read between the lines looking for things that aren’t there.

I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty sure there is only one average American. Everyone else is not.

88 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Jun 28, 2010 3:29:10pm

re: #82 Obdicut

Different than whose? My experience in San Francisco was very different from my experience in Boston or my experience in North Carolina or my experience in England.

We refer to the South, New England, the Heartland, and lots of other regions too; why is Hawaii different? And what is Hawaii different from?

it’s different from reliable Republican voters. That’s what they’re about.

89 RogueOne  Jun 28, 2010 3:29:32pm

Bye all, bb later.

90 tradewind  Jun 28, 2010 3:29:54pm

re: #65 Obdicut
By demanding my definition of ’ what the f-ck an American is ‘, you’ve already told me that you’re really sure you already know. Sorry, we don’t do this well at all. Get someone else.

91 Charles Johnson  Jun 28, 2010 3:30:10pm

re: #76 wrenchwench

Wow.

So they intended to carry the baby to term, knowing full well that it would have only a short miserable life full of suffering.

And then they used it to increase their creds with the anti-abortion crowd.

Some people will see it differently, I’m sure, but to me, what they did is simply evil.

92 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 3:30:16pm

re: #81 RogueOne

That’d be great, except it makes no sense as an accusation coming from Santorum towards Obama, given that same accusation would be true of every single President who ever lived.

If your interpretation is correct, then Santorum’s statements make no sense at all.

“Landlocked” is weird, too— you’re definitely saying that Hawaiians, the only non-landlocked Americans, aren’t average— even though by your own definition, most of them are average; most Hawaiians don’t leave Hawaii. Why does ‘landlocked’ have anything to do with this?

You’re not making any sense.

93 elizajane  Jun 28, 2010 3:30:19pm

re: #75 aurelius

That would show not only a greater knowledge of geography but an impressive command of Obama’s family history. I wonder which it is.

94 prairiefire  Jun 28, 2010 3:30:27pm

re: #82 Obdicut

Hawaii is different from other regions in that they have a very large Asian/Pacific islander demographic. When we visit family there, my husband asks me how it feels to be in a minority for once.
They are still fully American!

95 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 3:30:33pm

re: #88 WindUpBird

it’s different from reliable Republican voters. That’s what they’re about.

really?…I never considered the partisan angle

96 Randall Gross  Jun 28, 2010 3:30:52pm

This is going to cause a stir… WV sect’y of state just announced no special election to fill Byrd’s seat……. it’s going to be 2012 before an elected Senator is put in place.

97 webevintage  Jun 28, 2010 3:30:56pm

This is really like saying he hates “white culture”…whatever the hell white culture is.

and as military brat I would assume that John McCain would also be “detached form the American experience” since he spent much of his young life living outside of the US.

God this whole “American Experiance” and “Real Americans” just offends the hell out of me.

98 goddamnedfrank  Jun 28, 2010 3:31:03pm

re: #54 Alouette

It’s extremely creepy, but actually was a common practice in the 19th century.

Along with corncobs and bloodletting.

I don’t get it. A gruesome question for a gruesome subject: How is a stillborn baby not a biohazard? It’s hard for me to believe modern public health regulations even allow that.

99 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 3:31:58pm

re: #90 tradewind

By demanding my definition of ’ what the f-ck an American is ‘, you’ve already told me that you’re really sure you already know. Sorry, we don’t do this well at all. Get someone else.

I have no clue what you think an average American is. I asked the question because I want to know what you think an average American is. You are refusing to answer the question.

Even if I was ‘really sure I already knew’, how on earth does that mean you can’t give your definition, and prove me wrong?

You are dodging the question. Fine. But don’t blame me for your own refusal to answer it. Just refuse to answer it.

100 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 3:32:31pm

re: #96 Thanos

This is going to cause a stir… WV sect’y of state just announced no special election to fill Byrd’s seat… it’s going to be 2012 before an elected Senator is put in place.

the feds will drop the hammer on that one

101 tradewind  Jun 28, 2010 3:32:34pm

re: #96 Thanos
So is Manchin going to appoint himself?

102 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Jun 28, 2010 3:32:39pm

re: #86 RogueOne

No. Some of you are more “average” than others. Luckily I don’t count myself as average or even close to the norm. That’s something I would expect you, of all people on this board, to understand.

I dislike the othering of any American based on their background. I intensely dislike it. I dislike the idea that someone in one state cannot relate at all as a leader to people in another state. That’s what Santorum is saying. he’s literally saying that education and what state he lived in makes Obama UNABLE TO LEAD. It’s ridiculous and insane. As if the president is supposed to be an amalgam of marketing imagery instead of a person. Idiocracy made flesh, coming out of Santorum’s mouth.

103 aurelius  Jun 28, 2010 3:33:01pm

re: #77 prairiefire

I’m not an expert, but I think that the episode with their dead sibling had the potential to be very traumatic to the Santorum children. Perhaps it was therapeutic. I guess we will have to wait for the tell all book from that generation.

You are right, if done right, it could be instructive and therapeutic.

Death is part of life. The dead do not have to be immediately “disappeared” from view. Most cultures interact with the body for at least a day after death if not more.

I don’t have the answers. I know their grief was strong and possibly mind-numbing in its intensity. It is possible the other children were strongly affected… but if that means they came away with a deeper and more realistic view of the human place in the universe and the realities of life and death and illness…

well who are we to judge.

I’d much rather criticize Santorum for the divisiveness of the “detachment” word, and leave him alone on his baby.

But that’s just me.

104 Charles Johnson  Jun 28, 2010 3:33:12pm

re: #98 goddamnedfrank

Along with corncobs and bloodletting.

I don’t get it. A gruesome question for a gruesome subject: How is a stillborn baby not a biohazard? It’s hard for me to believe modern public health regulations even allow that.

The baby wasn’t stillborn.

105 Randall Gross  Jun 28, 2010 3:34:04pm

OT:
here’s that link on the WV announcement
tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com

106 tnguitarist  Jun 28, 2010 3:34:17pm

This “other” stuff is pissing me off. Aren’t we a nation of immigrants?

107 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Jun 28, 2010 3:34:18pm

re: #95 albusteve

really?…I never considered the partisan angle

You don’t think that Santorum’s words were aimed at Republicans who are already invested in othering the President as some outsider to be suspicious of?

108 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 3:34:42pm

re: #103 aurelius

I can, however, judge him for the decision to let the child be born to a short life of pointless suffering. He and his wife knew the baby would not survive, and that it’s only experience of life would be pain.

That, to me, is insane.

109 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Jun 28, 2010 3:34:59pm

re: #90 tradewind

By demanding my definition of ’ what the f-ck an American is ‘, you’ve already told me that you’re really sure you already know. Sorry, we don’t do this well at all. Get someone else.

Your ass gets handed to you so often I’m surprised there’s enough left to sit at the computer

110 webevintage  Jun 28, 2010 3:36:04pm

Also I would suggest that the Santorums themselves are not “ordinary Americans” and are a bit “”detached form the American experience” when you consider their rabid anti-abortion, hyper trad Catholic, homeschooling lifestyle.

(we homeschool, I’m not ordinary either)

111 wrenchwench  Jun 28, 2010 3:36:24pm

I was 3 or 4 when a newborn sister died. I woke up and saw the empty crib, and asked where the baby was. “The angels took her” I was told. I think I’d still be freaked out if I had been encouraged to hold her after she died.

112 darthstar  Jun 28, 2010 3:37:00pm

re: #106 tnguitarist

This “other” stuff is pissing me off. Aren’t we a nation of immigrants?

If you’re from England, Ireland, Australia, France, Italy, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, etc. …you’re an immigrant.

If you’re from Mexico, any country in Central or South America, you’re an illegal.

Asian migrants are judged on their economic and educational status and classified accordingly.

113 Gus  Jun 28, 2010 3:37:25pm

re: #106 tnguitarist

This “other” stuff is pissing me off. Aren’t we a nation of immigrants?

Historically it’s been a nation of immigrants since the European invasion of American Indian territory. AKA, the melting pot.

114 tradewind  Jun 28, 2010 3:37:29pm

re: #109 WindUpBird
Really, if you’re going to go full-on ad hominem ( feminem), at least come up with something interesting.
The condition of my ass has little to do with the topic of this thread, or hadn’t you noticed? … and it’s really none of your business.

115 goddamnedfrank  Jun 28, 2010 3:38:02pm

re: #104 Charles

The baby wasn’t stillborn.

Saw that after I posted. Still, at some age cutoff you are simply not allowed to take a dead person home with you. You can’t take a dead dog or an amputated limb home with you from the vet / hospital, there are rules. This practice seems anachronistic at best.

116 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 3:38:30pm

re: #107 WindUpBird

You don’t think that Santorum’s words were aimed at Republicans who are already invested in othering the President as some outsider to be suspicious of?

Obdicut was replying to tradewind, not Santorum…and your reply was to him, not Santorum

117 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 3:38:50pm

re: #114 tradewind

You know what does have to do with the topic of this thread?

The concept of “average American”.

I’m interested in what you feel the definition of ‘average American’ is.

I don’t feel there is any such definition, except in the vaguest sense, and that it definitely doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not one lives in Hawaii.

What do you think?

118 Summer Seale  Jun 28, 2010 3:39:26pm

re: #112 darthstar

If you’re from England, Ireland, Australia, France, Italy, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, etc. …you’re an immigrant.

If you’re from Mexico, any country in Central or South America, you’re an illegal.

Asian migrants are judged on their economic and educational status and classified accordingly.

Crayola explains Arizona for you.

119 Stanley Sea  Jun 28, 2010 3:40:22pm

re: #106 tnguitarist

This “other” stuff is pissing me off. Aren’t we a nation of immigrants?

Not anymore.

120 prairiefire  Jun 28, 2010 3:40:37pm

My sister in law was pregnant with a baby that the doctors told her at 6 months into her pregnancy would die within hours of her birth because of a birth defect. She decided to carry her to term. Her daughter was born, bathed, dressed, baptized, and died within 3 hours.
It is a deeply personal decision.
We still as a family talk occasionally about little M, the first of her generation to be born into my husband’s family.
Her body was donated to the hospital to be studied for that particular birth defect.

121 tnguitarist  Jun 28, 2010 3:40:58pm

re: #112 darthstar

If you’re from England, Ireland, Australia, France, Italy, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, etc. …you’re an immigrant.

If you’re from Mexico, any country in Central or South America, you’re an illegal.

Asian migrants are judged on their economic and educational status and classified accordingly.

Hmmm…. I see a theme developing there, but I can’t put my finger on it….

122 Summer Seale  Jun 28, 2010 3:41:07pm

re: #119 Stanley Sea

Not anymore.

Youtube Video

123 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 3:41:30pm

re: #112 darthstar

If you’re from England, Ireland, Australia, France, Italy, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, etc. …you’re an immigrant.

If you’re from Mexico, any country in Central or South America, you’re an illegal.

Asian migrants are judged on their economic and educational status and classified accordingly.

huh?…wtf are you talking about…there are clear distinctions between legal and illegal…it has nothing to do with nationality…and show some proof about Asians being classified ‘accordingly’

124 wrenchwench  Jun 28, 2010 3:41:39pm
125 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 3:42:43pm

re: #120 prairiefire

Did the baby suffer?

126 Gus  Jun 28, 2010 3:43:25pm

re: #123 albusteve

huh?…wtf are you talking about…there are clear distinctions between legal and illegal…it has nothing to do with nationality…and show some proof about Asians being classified ‘accordingly’

History says otherwise.

127 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 3:43:44pm

re: #124 wrenchwench

lol

it’s raining in ABQ!….hooray!
(I knew you were wondering)

128 aurelius  Jun 28, 2010 3:43:45pm

re: #120 prairiefire

My sister in law was pregnant with a baby that the doctors told her at 6 months into her pregnancy would die within hours of her birth because of a birth defect. She decided to carry her to term. Her daughter was born, bathed, dressed, baptized, and died within 3 hours.
It is a deeply personal decision.
We still as a family talk occasionally about little M, the first of her generation to be born into my husband’s family.
Her body was donated to the hospital to be studied for that particular birth defect.

deeply personal, deeply human.

129 kingkenrod  Jun 28, 2010 3:44:37pm

re: #105 Thanos

OT:
here’s that link on the WV announcement
[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com…]

So she expects candidates for a Senate election to have filed before the Senate seat was vacant? Talk about twisting the law into a pretzel…

130 Bubblehead II  Jun 28, 2010 3:44:55pm

The Average American. It’s a Wiki link so take it with a grain of salt Unless you are on a low Sodium diet.

131 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 3:45:13pm

re: #126 Gus 802

History says otherwise.

if that’s true the feds are not doing their job…surprised?

132 tnguitarist  Jun 28, 2010 3:45:39pm

re: #129 kingkenrod

So she expects candidates for a Senate election to have filed before the Senate seat was vacant? Talk about twisting the law into a pretzel…

That’s just weird. Did she want them to be hovering around like buzzards?

133 Macha  Jun 28, 2010 3:45:55pm

re: #115 goddamnedfrank

Saw that after I posted. Still, at some age cutoff you are simply not allowed to take a dead person home with you. You can’t take a dead dog or an amputated limb home with you from the vet / hospital, there are rules. This practice seems anachronistic at best.

Actually you can. I’ve taken a number of dead animals home from the vet for burial. In most states people have the right to prepare the deceased at home for burial or cremation. There is no requirement for embalming. Unless the laws have dramatically changed since I last enquired about this, it is still the same.

As to “average Americans”, I doubt there is such an animal. And never was, even in the “good old days”. You can probably find regions with enough people who have had similar experiences to appear to be average, but as soon as you step out of the region, your statistics would crumble.

134 Charles Johnson  Jun 28, 2010 3:46:20pm

re: #129 kingkenrod

So she expects candidates for a Senate election to have filed before the Senate seat was vacant? Talk about twisting the law into a pretzel…

Uh, no. She doesn’t “expect” anything like that. She’s following a complicated law.

135 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 3:46:37pm

re: #132 tnguitarist

That’s just weird. Did she want them to be hovering around like buzzards?

for a Senate seat?…hell yes

136 Gus  Jun 28, 2010 3:46:44pm

re: #131 albusteve

if that’s true the feds are not doing their job…surprised?

I was referring to the general sub-standard treatment of Chinese immigrants.

137 wrenchwench  Jun 28, 2010 3:47:00pm

re: #127 albusteve

it’s raining in ABQ!…hooray!
(I knew you were wondering)

We got some Friday, and we might get some tonight.

My roof leaks. :(

138 tnguitarist  Jun 28, 2010 3:47:14pm

re: #134 Charles

Uh, no. She doesn’t “expect” anything like that. She’s following a complicated law.

Thanks for clearing that up.

139 Gus  Jun 28, 2010 3:47:30pm

re: #136 Gus 802

I was referring to the general sub-standard treatment of Chinese immigrants.

Make that Chinese and other Asian or Pacific Islander immigrants.

140 Randall Gross  Jun 28, 2010 3:47:39pm

re: #118 Summer

Crayola explains Arizona for you.

Oh my — found from link at that same blog… the court filing vs Legionaires of Christ…

abcnews.go.com

141 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 3:47:43pm

re: #136 Gus 802

I was referring to the general sub-standard treatment of Chinese immigrants.

that’s past history…irrelevant, so to speak

142 Macha  Jun 28, 2010 3:47:52pm

re: #133 Macha

Actually you can. I’ve taken a number of dead animals home from the vet for burial. In most states people have the right to prepare the deceased at home for burial or cremation. There is no requirement for embalming. Unless the laws have dramatically changed since I last enquired about this, it is still the same.

As to “average Americans”, I doubt there is such an animal. And never was, even in the “good old days”. You can probably find regions with enough people who have had similar experiences to appear to be average, but as soon as you step out of the region, your statistics would crumble.

enquired+ too many times staring at the junk in the checkout line. Inquired.

143 prairiefire  Jun 28, 2010 3:47:54pm

re: #125 Obdicut

Did the baby suffer?

I believe the doctors told them that it would be a very quick death. She had no lungs. She was on a ventilator and then it was taken out.

144 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 3:49:00pm

re: #137 wrenchwench

We got some Friday, and we might get some tonight.

My roof leaks. :(

stick a bucket under it and praise the Lord!….it has not rained on me in over 8 months

145 Gus  Jun 28, 2010 3:49:25pm

re: #141 albusteve

that’s past history…irrelevant, so to speak

Why is that irrelevant? If that’s irrelevant then history is irrelevant. Do we not speak of the Civil War or the history of our founding fathers, the Constitution, slavery, etc?

146 tnguitarist  Jun 28, 2010 3:49:51pm

re: #141 albusteve

that’s past history…irrelevant, so to speak

All history is irrelevant. We shouldn’t even bother studying it.//

147 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 3:50:12pm

re: #143 prairiefire

Then it was one of the very, very rare cases where the baby does not suffer before dying, then I can respect, if not understand, that.

However, the vast majority of these cases, to me, are not in the least bit considerate of the child, but only about the desires of the parents. Most babies born with such birth defects have brief lives of great suffering and then death without ever achieving the faculties that would allow them to come to grips with such an ordeal. To me, forcing a child to go through that, with no hope of survival, is monstrous. Absolutely monstrous.

148 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 3:50:24pm

re: #143 prairiefire

I believe the doctors told them that it would be a very quick death. She had no lungs. She was on a ventilator and then it was taken out.

a vent is useless if there are no lungs…nothing to inflate…wth?

149 tradewind  Jun 28, 2010 3:51:22pm

re: #117 Obdicut
No, you’re not really interested in that. To end this, here’s what I think:
I think that both Republicans and Democrats routinely attempt to polarize their audiences into ’ like us ’ and ’ not like us ’ camps. Since Obama’s experience growing up was arguably not one that the majority of Americans would say ’ Oh yeah, that was me too ‘, pointing that out would be one of the ways for a Republican to do just that. A Democrat might point his finger at someone and say ’ (Insert R candidate here)______ doesn’t know what it is to join a union, or walk a picket line, or have parents whose first language is not English, or live in a walk-up, or work in a coal mine…. ’ .

150 researchok  Jun 28, 2010 3:51:27pm

Santorum is a lightweight.

For really crazy, think Bobby Jindal. He claims to have participated in an exorcism. Really.

A more complete account can be found here.

151 prairiefire  Jun 28, 2010 3:52:03pm

They were hoping that there might have been enough lung tissue to develop further, but there was not.

152 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Jun 28, 2010 3:52:11pm

I have a thank you note sitting in my house right now from some friends that we sent some homemade bread to after a similar death.

a. I can’t believe they felt the need to send a thank you note. I wasn’t expecting anything at all.

b. It was accompanied by a picture of them with the baby. I’m not creeped out at all—it was touching and beautifully done.

c. I don’t think they took the body home, though.

I have received birth announcements for babies that lived twenty minutes. I don’t find it creepy. The baby was a part of the family.

153 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 3:52:13pm

re: #145 Gus 802

Why is that irrelevant? If that’s irrelevant then history is irrelevant. Do we not speak of the Civil War or the history of our founding fathers, the Constitution, slavery, etc?

how does that address my #123?…that’s what’s irrelevant

154 kingkenrod  Jun 28, 2010 3:53:14pm

re: #134 Charles

Uh, no. She doesn’t “expect” anything like that. She’s following a complicated law.

She decided the state is not required to set up a special election, so she’s not going to do it. The fact that the filing period has passed for the 2010 election has nothing to do with whether a special election is held before 2012. It’s an obfuscation on her part. In fact, the 2012 election cycle will have a special election for the remainder of Byrd’s term.

155 Gus  Jun 28, 2010 3:53:18pm

re: #146 tnguitarist

All history is irrelevant. We shouldn’t even bother studying it.//

Another case in point: Japanese-American internment. German-Americans did not face this kind of treatment.

Fast forward to 2001. Many on the far right sought the internment of Muslim or Arab-Americans.

156 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 3:54:23pm

re: #149 tradewind

No, you’re not really interested in that.

You are claiming to be able to read my mind, then, after castigating me for supposedly doing so. Hypocritical.

I think that both Republicans and Democrats routinely attempt to polarize their audiences into ’ like us ’ and ’ not like us ’ camps.

Agreed.


Since Obama’s experience growing up was arguably not one that the majority of Americans would say ’ Oh yeah, that was me too ‘, pointing that out would be one of the ways for a Republican to do just that.

Nor was Santorums, or Clintons, or Bush’s. Nor was anyone’s. Pointless.

A Democrat might point his finger at someone and say ’ (Insert R candidate here)___ doesn’t know what it is to join a union, or walk a picket line, or have parents whose first language is not English, or live in a walk-up, or work in a coal mine… ’ .

Sure. None of which are average experiences. Those are particular examples. And that sort of identity politics— which can at least be locally relevant— isn’t at all restricted to Democrats.

And again: You castigated me for supposedly thinking I knew what was in your mind, and then proceeded to claim to know what I’m really interested in. That is sad.

157 Charles Johnson  Jun 28, 2010 3:54:46pm

re: #154 kingkenrod

She decided the state is not required to set up a special election, so she’s not going to do it. The fact that the filing period has passed for the 2010 election has nothing to do with whether a special election is held before 2012. It’s an obfuscation on her part. In fact, the 2012 election cycle will have a special election for the remainder of Byrd’s term.

Think maybe she had a lawyer or two advising her on the proper way to follow the law? Or is she just sneaky and evil?

158 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 3:55:15pm

re: #155 Gus 802

Another case in point: Japanese-American internment. German-Americans did not face this kind of treatment.

Fast forward to 2001. Many on the far right sought the internment of Muslim or Arab-Americans.

many? how many?…it didn’t happen

159 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 3:55:24pm

re: #155 Gus 802


Or the shameful, terrible, awful treatment of Black GIs during WWII— many of whom were treated worse that Nazi POWs in the United States.

That is a stain that doesn’t vanish quickly.

160 prairiefire  Jun 28, 2010 3:57:22pm

Science has advanced far enough in the years since that this type of hernia can be repaired in vitro. The baby’s lung develop and they are born able to breathe and thrive.

161 tradewind  Jun 28, 2010 3:57:52pm

re: #156 Obdicut
Yeah, strike the snarky ’ you’re not really interested in that ’ part… sorry.
But really, done with this.

162 Gus  Jun 28, 2010 3:57:55pm

re: #153 albusteve

how does that address my #123?…that’s what’s irrelevant

Oh. I think Darthstar was being facetious to a certain extent. New immigrants that aren’t seen as the nativist ideal (i.e. Northern European) are seen as “illegals” or foreigners by the more atavistic or archaic members of American society.

163 kingkenrod  Jun 28, 2010 3:58:41pm

re: #147 Obdicut

Then it was one of the very, very rare cases where the baby does not suffer before dying, then I can respect, if not understand, that.

However, the vast majority of these cases, to me, are not in the least bit considerate of the child, but only about the desires of the parents. Most babies born with such birth defects have brief lives of great suffering and then death without ever achieving the faculties that would allow them to come to grips with such an ordeal. To me, forcing a child to go through that, with no hope of survival, is monstrous. Absolutely monstrous.

Well, the baby died at 20 weeks and the latest research suggests that a fetus cannot feel pain until 25 weeks, which means the baby didn’t suffer.

But there’s no way Santorum could have known that. I think his decision is immoral.

164 Aunty Entity Dragon  Jun 28, 2010 3:59:04pm
Karen Santorum wrote a book about the experience: Letters to Gabriel: The True Story of Gabriel Michael Santorum.[11] In it, she writes that the couple brought the deceased infant home from the hospital and introduced the dead child to their living children as “your brother Gabriel” and slept with the body overnight before returning it to the hospital. The anecdote was also written about by Michael Sokolove in a 2005 New York Times Magazine story on Santorum.[1] Karen is also the author of a book on etiquette for children.


And this is from the guy who compares my marriage to having sex with farm animals.

Words fail.

165 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 3:59:04pm

re: #159 Obdicut

Or the shameful, terrible, awful treatment of Black GIs during WWII— many of whom were treated worse that Nazi POWs in the United States.

That is a stain that doesn’t vanish quickly.

blacks ran the Red Ball Express and were highly touted for their tenacity and courage, so were the Tuskegee airman…I guess anybody gets treated poorly sooner or later but show some support for the terrible, awful, treatment

166 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 4:00:35pm

re: #161 tradewind

You were done with it awhile ago.

You have no actual argument that holds up to a moment’s scrutiny. Yes, everyone’s experience is unique; which means an attack on Obama for not being part of ‘average America’ makes no sense at all.

You failed to ever actually give a definition of an average American— either your own, or as Santorum meant it— but dodged the question completely.

167 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 4:00:39pm

re: #162 Gus 802

Oh. I think Darthstar was being facetious to a certain extent. New immigrants that aren’t seen as the nativist ideal (i.e. Northern European) are seen as “illegals” or foreigners by the more atavistic or archaic members of American society.

then he should say he was being facetious, right?

168 Irenicum  Jun 28, 2010 4:02:16pm

Why do I feel like I’ve walked onto the set of Animal Farm with this thread? We’re all equal, but some are more equal than others. Yikes!

169 SixDegrees  Jun 28, 2010 4:02:20pm

re: #91 Charles

Wow.

So they intended to carry the baby to term, knowing full well that it would have only a short miserable life full of suffering.

And then they used it to increase their creds with the anti-abortion crowd.

Some people will see it differently, I’m sure, but to me, what they did is simply evil.

Charles -

With all due respect, don’t go there.

Six months into our first pregnancy, my wife and I learned that our son was horribly malformed, and would require several major surgeries immediately after birth simply to survive, and would be faced with years of additional surgeries if he lived. At best, he would be a severe cripple at the end of it all.

Our decision, which wasn’t rendered lightly and only after consulting with a half-dozen surgical specialists, was to go ahead with the birth.

He died in the womb a couple of weeks afterward.

All of the doctors we spoke with were very clear that they would support our decision no matter what it was - and this came from people who knew full well what the chances of success were (extremely low) and the amount of suffering the child would certainly undergo (a lot, at best). Not a single one of them suggested that death was preferable, although none were at all sanguine about his prospects.

Thousands of people every year are faced with similar circumstances, and thousands of them make the same choice we did. They aren’t evil, and frankly, you aren’t qualified to pass such judgment.

170 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 4:02:20pm

re: #165 albusteve

blacks ran the Red Ball Express and were highly touted for their tenacity and courage, so were the Tuskegee airman…I guess anybody gets treated poorly sooner or later but show some support for the terrible, awful, treatment

What the fuck, Steve, how can you not know this kind of stuff? Seriously, dude.

eotu.uiuc.edu

worldwar2history.info


In April 1944 Corp. Rupert Timmingham wrote Yank magazine. “Here is a question that each Negro soldier is asking,” he began. “What is the Negro soldier fighting for? On whose team are we playing?” He recounted the difficulties he and eight other black soldiers had while traveling through the South — “where Old Jim Crow rules” — for a new assignment. “We could not purchase a cup of coffee,” Timmingham noted. Finally the lunchroom manager at a Texas railroad depot said the black GIs could go on around back to the kitchen for a sandwich and coffee. As they did, “about two dozen German prisoners of war, with two American guards, came to the station. They entered the lunchroom, sat at the tables, had their meals served, talked, smoked, in fact had quite a swell time. I stood on the outside looking on, and I could not help but ask myself why are they treated better than we are? Why are we pushed around like cattle? If we are fighting for the same thing, if we are to die for our country, then why does the Government allow such things to go on? Some of the boys are saying that you will not print this letter. I’m saying that you will.”
171 kingkenrod  Jun 28, 2010 4:02:40pm

re: #157 Charles

Think maybe she had a lawyer or two advising her on the proper way to follow the law? Or is she just sneaky and evil?

I think she made a political decision which the law may or may not give her latitude to do. As you said, it’s a complicated law. Do you have a problem with me pointing this out?

172 tnguitarist  Jun 28, 2010 4:02:47pm

re: #158 albusteve

many? how many?…it didn’t happen

Do a search and you’ll find plenty of examples. I was going to post them, but I wasn’t sure which sites were forbidden to link to. Hint: her initials are MM.

173 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 4:04:16pm

re: #166 Obdicut

You were done with it awhile ago.

You have no actual argument that holds up to a moment’s scrutiny. Yes, everyone’s experience is unique; which means an attack on Obama for not being part of ‘average America’ makes no sense at all.

You failed to ever actually give a definition of an average American— either your own, or as Santorum meant it— but dodged the question completely.

albusteve and Charles Johnson are average Americans….our lives are different as are our backgrounds, nevertheless we are pretty average…the only thing we have in common I’m sure…CJ does dig Joe B tho, as I do….so that should explain everything

174 tradewind  Jun 28, 2010 4:04:39pm

re: #163 kingkenrod
Good to know that babies can’t feel pain until after 24 weeks, since
an increasing number of them are being born at that milepost, and surviving . At least they won’t be inconvenienced by the needle sticks they have to endure.

175 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 4:05:57pm

re: #169 SixDegrees

I’m qualified to pass such judgement.

If one is certain that a baby will die after birth, and that its only experience of life will be pain, and that it will never develop the mental faculties to deal with that pain, then it is monstrous to bring that child into a world to simply suffer and die.

In your case, there was the opportunity for the baby to survive to adulthood and develop an intellect, develop the faculties to deal with the pain and suffering.

It is not comparable to a situation when you know that the baby will simply suffer and die.

176 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 28, 2010 4:06:26pm

I’m getting used to the weird world of Twitter. I have already been “defollowed” by somebody who pitched a hissy fit (twit) because I was “following” somebody he was having an argument with.

I like, wanted to see both sides of the conversation.

Whatever.

177 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 4:06:58pm

re: #170 Obdicut

doesn’t support your sweeping comment…sort of status quo

178 Bagua  Jun 28, 2010 4:07:37pm

re: #176 Alouette

I’m getting used to the weird world of Twitter. I have already been “defollowed” by somebody who pitched a hissy fit (twit) because I was “following” somebody he was having an argument with.

I like, wanted to see both sides of the conversation.

Whatever.

What’s his twitter name? You want I should delete his followers?

179 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 4:07:45pm

re: #177 albusteve

doesn’t support your sweeping comment…sort of status quo

Why did the black soldiers run the Red Ball Express instead of being front-line combat soldiers, Steve?

180 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Jun 28, 2010 4:08:33pm

On the other subject—America is an ideal, a state of mind, a way of looking at things. It isn’t one religion, education, kind of food, clothes, or ethnicity*. It’s the understanding that we are legally equal**, and stand before the laws of this country equally. This is not a big man-little man country, it’s an equal men country.

*There are an awful lot of us who don’t have one specific ethnicity.

**Legally equal is different from literally equal. Some of us are smarter, or faster, or better looking than others. That’s life. The law is blind to those things, though.

181 Bagua  Jun 28, 2010 4:08:51pm

re: #175 Obdicut

I’m qualified to pass such judgement.

Bullshit, heaven forbid you will ever have to make such a choice.

182 Charles Johnson  Jun 28, 2010 4:09:04pm

re: #169 SixDegrees

Sorry for your loss. But I have no idea why you think what I said about Santorum applies to you.

Your tragedy doesn’t have anything to do with my opinion on what Rick Santorum did. He used this incident to increase his credibility with the anti-abortion crowd, and their baby was not simply impaired — it was definitely not going to live.

And it’s even creepier that he brought a dead 20-week fetus home to introduce to his family.

183 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 28, 2010 4:09:15pm

re: #178 Bagua

What’s his twitter name? You want I should delete his followers?

I didn’t think that somebody would actually get a wad in his pants about something like that.

184 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 4:09:17pm

re: #179 Obdicut

Why did the black soldiers run the Red Ball Express instead of being front-line combat soldiers, Steve?

segregation…but it was a crucial job and they got it done…I’m trying to stay in context here, are you?

185 Killgore Trout  Jun 28, 2010 4:09:29pm
Obama is detached form the American experience. He just doesn’t identify with the average American because of his own background. Indonesia and Hawaii.

That’s a horrible insult not only to Hawaiians but also to Indonesian Americans. When was the last time we had an “average” American for president?At least in modern history they’re all pretty much upper class, wealthy and Ivy league educated. Bush wasn’t really a hick, he just played one as President.

186 Randall Gross  Jun 28, 2010 4:10:34pm

re: #169 SixDegrees

All human beings are qualified to pass judgements. We have to day in and day out just to live, and we have to to make moral decisions on our own. Your argument does not hold water - I’ve never been crippled, but I judge that ramps for the disabled are a good thing. I’ve never murdered anyone, but I judge that murder should be punished. I wasn’t in NO during Katrina, but I can make a judgement about Dr’s who abandoned some patients, and other Dr’s who euthanized some patients even though I personally wasn’t in the horrific situation.

By your statement, all Jury trials are wrong.

187 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 4:10:36pm

re: #180 EmmmieG

The average American is a newly sworn in citizen from China, here in the land of freedom.

The average American is a Tennesee coal-miner, the son and grandson and great-grandson of coal miners.

The average American is a Hawaiian of Japanese ancestry who’s grandfather joined the Nisei brigades and whose other grandfather was put in the camps.

The average American is a smart-ass Jewish kid from the Bronx.

We’re all average Americans. We’re all Americans. This country rules.

188 Gus  Jun 28, 2010 4:11:20pm

re: #172 tnguitarist

Do a search and you’ll find plenty of examples. I was going to post them, but I wasn’t sure which sites were forbidden to link to. Hint: her initials are MM.

Along with Daniel Pipes. However, Pipes did not call for internment directly but instead masked it as a review of Malkin’s book which was veiled argument for Muslims internment hidden within the text of Japanese-American internment. Both cases are rather obvious.

189 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 4:11:21pm

re: #181 Bagua

Bullshit, heaven forbid you will ever have to make such a choice.

Why on earth do you think you can call bullshit on someone else’s life experiences, dude?

I’ve already been a part of such a choice. Heaven didn’t forbid it. It happened.

190 researchok  Jun 28, 2010 4:12:38pm

re: #169 SixDegrees

Charles -

With all due respect, don’t go there.

Six months into our first pregnancy, my wife and I learned that our son was horribly malformed, and would require several major surgeries immediately after birth simply to survive, and would be faced with years of additional surgeries if he lived. At best, he would be a severe cripple at the end of it all.

Our decision, which wasn’t rendered lightly and only after consulting with a half-dozen surgical specialists, was to go ahead with the birth.

He died in the womb a couple of weeks afterward.

All of the doctors we spoke with were very clear that they would support our decision no matter what it was - and this came from people who knew full well what the chances of success were (extremely low) and the amount of suffering the child would certainly undergo (a lot, at best). Not a single one of them suggested that death was preferable, although none were at all sanguine about his prospects.

Thousands of people every year are faced with similar circumstances, and thousands of them make the same choice we did. They aren’t evil, and frankly, you aren’t qualified to pass such judgment.

I don’t believe that was Charles’ intent, to pass judgment.

What you decide what is right for you is intimate and personal. That is far different from taking what is an intimate and personal decision- and right- and advocating one way or another to support an agenda. I believe that was Charles’ point- to protect those who might choose differently than you.

I don’t take your decision lightly or for granted. My personal experience with abortion has left it’s mark.

191 wrenchwench  Jun 28, 2010 4:13:35pm

re: #182 Charles

And it’s even creepier that he brought a 20-week fetus home to introduce to his family 5 year old, three year old, and one year old children.

Detailed that for you. And had them hold their dead brother.

192 Bagua  Jun 28, 2010 4:13:42pm

re: #189 Obdicut

Why on earth do you think you can call bullshit on someone else’s life experiences, dude?

I’ve already been a part of such a choice. Heaven didn’t forbid it. It happened.

Your mistake is thinking you can make that decision for others. You overrate yourself.

193 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 4:13:44pm

re: #187 Obdicut

The average American is a newly sworn in citizen from China, here in the land of freedom.

The average American is a Tennesee coal-miner, the son and grandson and great-grandson of coal miners.

The average American is a Hawaiian of Japanese ancestry who’s grandfather joined the Nisei brigades and whose other grandfather was put in the camps.

The average American is a smart-ass Jewish kid from the Bronx.

We’re all average Americans. We’re all Americans. This country rules.

all true..I will have no part in some regional, average American debate…it’s bullshit…American means you are a citizen of this country, no more, no less

194 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 4:13:45pm

re: #190 researchok

Link didn’t work.

195 tnguitarist  Jun 28, 2010 4:14:05pm

Gotta bounce. I have a project to finish. (I was going to put a shameless self-promotion here, but I’ll wait for an open thread.)

196 Yashmak  Jun 28, 2010 4:14:28pm

How can anyone talk about average anything anymore? Any point of view can be spun to indicate an ‘out of touch with the average American’ position.

It’s what I hate about politics now. I consider myself conservative (especially on issues concerning the constitution, fiscal and foreign policy), but with some socially liberal points of view. As such, I’m regularly lumped in with “idiot soc-cons” or “red neck” by folks on the left, and labelled such things as a “eugenicist Eichmannite” and am described as “morally destitute” or a “RINO” by the religious right.

<sigh> It’s like there’s a living breathing campaign against so-called ‘average Americans’ by the freakies on either end of the spectrum.

197 prairiefire  Jun 28, 2010 4:15:54pm

re: #147 Obdicut

She chose not to have a late term abortion and I choose not to judge her for that.

198 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 4:16:29pm

Derk Jeter is an average American…just like Frank the bus driver

199 tradewind  Jun 28, 2010 4:16:40pm

re: #187 Obdicut

The average American is a newly sworn in citizen from China, here in the land of freedom.


Oh, bullshiite. ’ A newly sworn in citizen from China ’ would be the first to tell you that he/she is unusually fortunate and blessed to be here, as are we, the nation, to receive them as citizens , but ‘average ‘? Get a dictionary. The example you cite is one of a person who is fully American, equally American, but certainly not average.

200 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Jun 28, 2010 4:16:50pm

re: #33 tradewind

You can’t deny that Obama’s early world view was shaped by elementary school in Indonesia. He’s said as much in speeches.

So he’s like tainted with otherness and so can’t be trusted, right? You think that’s an ‘American’ way of looking at things?

Sounds North Korean to me.

201 HoosierHoops  Jun 28, 2010 4:17:14pm

re: #196 Yashmak

There are over 300 million Americans…I’m pretty sure there isn’t an average one in the bunch…

202 researchok  Jun 28, 2010 4:17:21pm

re: #194 Obdicut

Link didn’t work.



Sorry. Here is updated link

203 Summer Seale  Jun 28, 2010 4:17:26pm

re: #176 Alouette

I’m getting used to the weird world of Twitter. I have already been “defollowed” by somebody who pitched a hissy fit (twit) because I was “following” somebody he was having an argument with.

I like, wanted to see both sides of the conversation.

Whatever.

Who are you on twitter? I’ll add you if you want. I’m @summerseale

204 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 4:18:41pm

re: #201 HoosierHoops

There are over 300 million Americans…I’m pretty sure there isn’t an average one in the bunch…

Payton Manning is average…and his brother wears a diaper during games

205 tradewind  Jun 28, 2010 4:20:11pm

re: #200 Jimmah
Not that you’d ever taint anyone with teh ’ otherness ‘./
I’ve already posted why I think politicians try to ’ other-ize ’ their opponents. Republicans don’t have a monopoly on the tendency.

206 Randall Gross  Jun 28, 2010 4:20:21pm

Rumor has it that McChrystal is submitting retirement papers tomorrow

207 Bagua  Jun 28, 2010 4:20:32pm

re: #201 HoosierHoops

There are over 300 million Americans…I’m pretty sure there isn’t an average one in the bunch…

It think the problem is the word “average” is being confused with the word “true.”

Mark Spitz who won seven gold medals is certainly not an average American, but he is a “true” or “real” American.

Converts are not average Jews, but they are real and true Jews.

208 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 4:20:49pm

re: #192 Bagua

Your mistake is thinking you can make that decision for others. You overrate yourself.

I’m not going to argue about this with you, especially when you don’t even bother apologizing for assuming I haven’t been in that situation.

We are entitled to judge the actions of others even when we haven’t been in such circumstances. We’re human. I can judge the actions of a parent that hits their child, and I could judge the actions of a ‘parent’ that chose to bear a child they knew would simply suffer and die even if I didn’t have personal experience with that choice.

Humans have empathy in addition to sympathy. It’s a wonderful thing. We need it.

209 Summer Seale  Jun 28, 2010 4:21:07pm

An average man consulting a marriage counselor:

Youtube Video

210 Yashmak  Jun 28, 2010 4:21:27pm

re: #200 Jimmah

So he’s like tainted with otherness and so can’t be trusted, right? You think that’s an ‘American’ way of looking at things?

Sounds North Korean to me.

Heh, I was greatly shaped/influenced by the 5 months I lived in Germany. I guess in certain folks’ books that would make me out of touch with the Average American too…never mind the 38.5 remaining years of my life spent right here in the good old USA ;)

211 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 28, 2010 4:21:44pm

re: #203 Summer

@viciousbabushka

212 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 4:22:03pm

re: #199 tradewind

You took a level in missing the damn point.

213 HoosierHoops  Jun 28, 2010 4:22:25pm

re: #204 albusteve

Payton Manning is average…and his brother wears a diaper during games

Peyton lives in a freaking Castle 20 minutes south of here…I wonder how big his staff is.. Cause I’m telling you It’s a huge joint..He is not average..
Really..I don’t think anybody is…We are all unique…

214 Cato the Elder  Jun 28, 2010 4:22:49pm

re: #23 RogueOne

Hawaiins are “average” americans about as much as Alaskans are. Their unique, different.

Their unique, different what, exactly?

215 prairiefire  Jun 28, 2010 4:24:15pm

re: #185 Killgore Trout

That’s a horrible insult not only to Hawaiians but also to Indonesian Americans. When was the last time we had an “average” American for president?At least in modern history they’re all pretty much upper class, wealthy and Ivy league educated. Bush wasn’t really a hick, he just played one as President.

Bill Clinton’s daddy drowned in a ditch running moonshine. That’s not very typical, either. I really wished his mom would have lived longer. I think the American people were deprived of a lot of colorful presidential moments.

216 tradewind  Jun 28, 2010 4:24:16pm

re: #204 albusteve
I know Peyton, and he’s definitely Above Average.
re: #206 Thanos
That’s rumor? I thought that was understood.

217 wrenchwench  Jun 28, 2010 4:24:43pm

re: #201 HoosierHoops

There are over 300 million Americans…I’m pretty sure there isn’t an average one in the bunch…

If you were a one-in-a-million kind of guy in China, there would be a thousand guys exactly like you.

218 Yashmak  Jun 28, 2010 4:24:59pm

To end all this confusion once and for all, I am officially designating MYSELF the “Average American”.

To determine if you are an Average American, you now need only compare yourselves to me.

219 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 4:25:02pm

re: #206 Thanos

Rumor has it that McChrystal is submitting retirement papers tomorrow

good move…he’s done as far as the army is concerned

220 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 4:25:13pm

re: #197 prairiefire

She chose not to have a late term abortion and I choose not to judge her for that.

It is probably because of my own experiences that my sympathies tend to lie much more with children than with parents. Working with developmentally disabled children has made me see an incredibly wide panoply of deeply selfish behaviors on the part of parents that’s left me rather cynical about the motives of parents. I try to never let it color my interactions unfairly with them, but damn, the things some parents put their children through.

If I’ve never shown this to you before, warning, it’ll anger up the blood and break the heart:

tampabay.com

I’ve never borne a child, nor have I been a mildly disabled woman, but I feel free to judge the birth mother of Dani as a terrible woman and the Lierow’s as absolutely wonderful people.

221 Boogberg  Jun 28, 2010 4:25:37pm

re: #206 Thanos

Rumor has it that McChrystal is submitting retirement papers tomorrow

He might as well. Looks like it’s downhill from here as far as his military career goes. Especially if Obama gets re-elected.

222 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 4:25:50pm

re: #214 Cato the Elder

Their unique, different what, exactly?

Don’t even look at my posts today. From mixing up whose and who’s to punctuation failure, I’ve been a mess.

223 Bagua  Jun 28, 2010 4:25:56pm

re: #208 Obdicut

I’m not going to argue about this with you, especially when you don’t even bother apologizing for assuming I haven’t been in that situation.

You did not state that so there is no burden for me to make assumptions. If you were in that situation personally then you have my sympathy.


We are entitled to judge the actions of others even when we haven’t been in such circumstances. We’re human. I can judge the actions of a parent that hits their child, and I could judge the actions of a ‘parent’ that chose to bear a child they knew would simply suffer and die even if I didn’t have personal experience with that choice.

That is where you are mistaken, you are exceeding judgmental of others.


Humans have empathy in addition to sympathy. It’s a wonderful thing. We need it.

That is my point as well, less judgement and more empathy and sympathy for the complexities of other humans.

224 Amory Blaine  Jun 28, 2010 4:26:03pm

IDK If my wife died while we slept, I might just want to lie with her for a while. I certainly wouldn’t introduce her around even though she would no doubt be more charming and hospitable in death than at my best moment.

225 tradewind  Jun 28, 2010 4:26:51pm

re: #222 Obdicut
/Don’t sweat the small stuff/.

226 Cato the Elder  Jun 28, 2010 4:27:12pm

Who pays for Santorum’s children’s psychiatric treatment when they start having flashbacks later in life of being introduced to their dead brother and remembering that their dad spent the night with a dead baby?

227 HoosierHoops  Jun 28, 2010 4:27:29pm

re: #217 wrenchwench

If you were a one-in-a-million kind of guy in China, there would be a thousand guys exactly like you.

If I was Chinese I’d wonder why 200 million guys were named Chin…
Yet I would never wonder about somebody being like me…

228 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 4:27:35pm

re: #213 HoosierHoops

Peyton lives in a freaking Castle 20 minutes south of here…I wonder how big his staff is.. Cause I’m telling you It’s a huge joint..He is not average..
Really..I don’t think anybody is…We are all unique…

I can show you how big my staff is if you want….I grew up around wealth, tons of it…I’m not impressed with Peytons house, been there, done that

229 Mich-again  Jun 28, 2010 4:27:58pm

Now I don’t think Obama or any other leader should have to conform to some sort of “averageness” scale. Thats just plain dumb and counter to what makes America the great Nation that it is. But why is it that on certain occasions Obama pulls out this horribly fake Southern dialect so he can better connect with his audience. One example.. Why not make that same speech in his normal Midwestern dialect. If one was a cynic, one might get the impression he was doing that on purpose.

230 Amory Blaine  Jun 28, 2010 4:28:11pm

re: #228 albusteve

I can show you how big my staff is if you want…I grew up around wealth, tons of it…I’m not impressed with Peytons house, been there, done that

Please don’t pull out your staff!!!

231 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 4:28:41pm

re: #221 Boogberg

He might as well. Looks like it’s downhill from here as far as his military career goes. Especially if Obama gets re-elected.

obviously he does not want to work for BO….the question is why

232 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 4:28:55pm

re: #202 researchok


Sorry. Here is updated link

Thank you for that very thoughtful and personal essay, by the way.

I haven’t been on the site much over the past weeks (marriage, honeymoon, moving) but I’ve read quite a few of your posts that I thought were absolutely excellent. Thank you.

233 Aceofwhat?  Jun 28, 2010 4:29:17pm

re: #108 Obdicut

I can, however, judge him for the decision to let the child be born to a short life of pointless suffering. He and his wife knew the baby would not survive, and that it’s only experience of life would be pain.

That, to me, is insane.

I keep trying to figure out who the hell you guys are talking about.

IIRC, the baby had a defect. They opted for intrauterine surgery, which was difficult but quite successful. Shortly thereafter, there was an infection which led to the premature birth and death of the baby.

So…what, they should have chopped it up in utero once they realized they were in for a premature birth instead of delivering it and letting it expire peacefully? I’m going to need a LOT of help to figure out how we’re allowed to cast judgment here.

234 Floral Giraffe  Jun 28, 2010 4:29:30pm

re: #232 Obdicut

Welcome back!
*waves*

235 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 4:30:04pm

re: #226 Cato the Elder

Who pays for Santorum’s children’s psychiatric treatment when they start having flashbacks later in life of being introduced to their dead brother and remembering that their dad spent the night with a dead baby?

well you do of course

236 Bagua  Jun 28, 2010 4:30:23pm

re: #232 Obdicut

Oh, wow. Congratulations on your Marriage! I wish you happiness and prosperity.

237 Decatur Deb  Jun 28, 2010 4:30:34pm

Uh—“average” is a numerical concept. If you can’t quantify all the characteristics of all the Americans, you won’t find “average”.

238 Aceofwhat?  Jun 28, 2010 4:30:56pm

re: #33 tradewind

You can’t deny that Obama’s early world view was shaped by elementary school in Indonesia. He’s said as much in speeches.

Good for him. My world view has been shaped by the time i spent in Belgium when i was younger. I’m far better for it. Were you going somewhere with this?

239 allegro  Jun 28, 2010 4:31:25pm

I rather question the Santorum’s judgement in risking the mother’s life by carrying a certain to die fetus when they have 3 little children at home. A dead baby is more important than 3 living little kids having a healthy mom?

240 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 4:31:36pm

re: #223 Bagua

Empathy includes judgement, Bagua. I’m am very judgmental of bad parents because I am very empathetic to children.

I have no interest in a personal fight about my respective qualities as a person, so I’d take it kindly if you quit trying to attack me personally.

241 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Jun 28, 2010 4:31:51pm

re: #205 tradewind

Not that you’d ever taint anyone with teh ’ otherness ‘./

That’s absolutely right - I wouldn’t. Xenophobia isn’t my bag.

242 Gus  Jun 28, 2010 4:32:24pm
243 Bagua  Jun 28, 2010 4:32:35pm

re: #238 Aceofwhat?

Good for him. My world view has been shaped by the time i spent in Belgium when i was younger. I’m far better for it. Were you going somewhere with this?

I always saw that as one of Obama’s strengths, that he was not the “typical” US President and had a broader experience of other cultures and nations.

244 HoosierHoops  Jun 28, 2010 4:33:04pm

re: #228 albusteve

I can show you how big my staff is if you want…I grew up around wealth, tons of it…I’m not impressed with Peytons house, been there, done that

Did I ask you to be impressed with rich millionaire Athletes? Did I even effen try that? Every person in America is different..There are no average Americans..
From the poorest soul to Bill Gates..We are all different and there is no average American.
That’s what I tried to say Steve

245 Aceofwhat?  Jun 28, 2010 4:33:04pm

re: #182 Charles

Your tragedy doesn’t have anything to do with my opinion on what Rick Santorum did. He used this incident to increase his credibility with the anti-abortion crowd, and their baby was not simply impaired — it was definitely not going to live.

And it’s even creepier that he brought a dead 20-week fetus home to introduce to his family.

I just think that’s a mean thing to say. I might well have done something just as crazy if i’d lost my daughter (she was in the NICU for a week but got better, thank God).

I’ve never felt anything like the potential loss of my baby. If we can’t allow fellow human beings a few days of sheer insanity following the loss of their child, how human are we, really?

246 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 4:33:53pm

re: #233 Aceofwhat?

I haven’t said word one about Santorum’s particular case. However, I believe this to be true:

he couple were told by doctors early in the pregnancy that the baby Karen was carrying had a fatal defect and would survive only for a short time outside the womb.

I am saying that if you know that a child will be born to only a short life of pain, then it is monstrous to allow that to happen if you have the means to prevent that suffering.

I don’t favor any legislation to mandate that this be so, however, since it’s far too complex an area to craft law on.

247 Charles Johnson  Jun 28, 2010 4:34:40pm

re: #233 Aceofwhat?

I keep trying to figure out who the hell you guys are talking about.

IIRC, the baby had a defect. They opted for intrauterine surgery, which was difficult but quite successful. Shortly thereafter, there was an infection which led to the premature birth and death of the baby.

So…what, they should have chopped it up in utero once they realized they were in for a premature birth instead of delivering it and letting it expire peacefully? I’m going to need a LOT of help to figure out how we’re allowed to cast judgment here.

No. This baby had what was described as “a fatal defect,” and the Santorums were told it would survive outside the womb for only a few hours. And they were told this very early in the pregnancy.

248 researchok  Jun 28, 2010 4:34:40pm

re: #232 Obdicut

Thank you for that very thoughtful and personal essay, by the way.

I haven’t been on the site much over the past weeks (marriage, honeymoon, moving) but I’ve read quite a few of your posts that I thought were absolutely excellent. Thank you.


Thanks, Obdi for your kind words.

Been a while since I’ve actually written anything original- work has drowned me.

Anyway, best of luck to you guys (not the marriage or honeymoon. It’s the moving that will kill you…!).

249 Amory Blaine  Jun 28, 2010 4:34:52pm

Props to Dan Savage though….

250 Aceofwhat?  Jun 28, 2010 4:35:16pm

re: #243 Bagua

I always saw that as one of Obama’s strengths, that he was not the “typical” US President and had a broader experience of other cultures and nations.

Yep. And despite my “non-average” experience, i lean to the right. Apparently, we not-average people can be found all over the political spectrum/

251 prairiefire  Jun 28, 2010 4:35:30pm

re: #220 Obdicut

Yes, I have read that article before when you posted it.

My sister in law would have moved heaven and earth for therapy for her daughter if she would have been able to. I know, because she has to deal with a developmentally disabled son, now. She has moved heaven and earth for him.

252 Bagua  Jun 28, 2010 4:35:36pm

re: #240 Obdicut

Empathy includes judgement, Bagua. I’m am very judgmental of bad parents because I am very empathetic to children.

I have no interest in a personal fight about my respective qualities as a person, so I’d take it kindly if you quit trying to attack me personally.

Attack you? Don’t be silly Obdicut. If you post you get relies and discussion. You set yourself up as able to sit in judgement of others on highly personal matters, yet you have such thin skin you can accept no dissent? Nope.

253 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 4:35:47pm

re: #248 researchok


Anyway, best of luck to you guys (not the marriage or honeymoon. It’s the moving that will kill you…!).

True that.

254 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 4:36:12pm

re: #244 HoosierHoops

Did I ask you to be impressed with rich millionaire Athletes? Did I even effen try that? Every person in America is different..There are no average Americans..
From the poorest soul to Bill Gates..We are all different and there is no average American.
That’s what I tried to say Steve

and I tried to say my staff is huge, as in not average….beyond that I agree with you

255 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Jun 28, 2010 4:36:16pm

re: #210 Yashmak

Heh, I was greatly shaped/influenced by the 5 months I lived in Germany. I guess in certain folks’ books that would make me out of touch with the Average American too…never mind the 38.5 remaining years of my life spent right here in the good old USA ;)

“You’re not exactly the same as us, and that disturbs us.”

Youtube Video

256 Bagua  Jun 28, 2010 4:36:40pm

re: #250 Aceofwhat?

Yep. And despite my “non-average” experience, i lean to the right. Apparently, we not-average people can be found all over the political spectrum/

Exactly.

257 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 4:36:49pm

re: #252 Bagua

Whatever, dude. I’m fine with being judged. I’m just not going to fight you about your perceptions of me.

258 Aceofwhat?  Jun 28, 2010 4:37:14pm

re: #247 Charles

No. This baby had what was described as “a fatal defect,” and the Santorums were told it would survive outside the womb for only a few hours. And they were told this very early in the pregnancy.

I’m pulling my facts from the excerpt of the book in question, i.e. from Karen Santorum. So do we have information somewhere showing that Karen Santorum is completely and wholly lying about the entire pregnancy and end?

259 Jaerik  Jun 28, 2010 4:37:36pm

Here’s the problem. “The American Experience” doesn’t mean what conservatives think it means, anymore. They’re clinging to a traditionally rural, conservative idealization of “average America” that hasn’t been true for many decades. Population statistics and demographic data clearly show this, and it’s never going to be that way again.

260 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 4:37:55pm

re: #243 Bagua

I always saw that as one of Obama’s strengths, that he was not the “typical” US President and had a broader experience of other cultures and nations.

that’s all hearsay…and if were true why would it be a strength? rather than, say, a weakness?….just for the sake of argument

261 Bagua  Jun 28, 2010 4:38:15pm

re: #257 Obdicut

Whatever, dude. I’m fine with being judged. I’m just not going to fight you about your perceptions of me.

Wonderful. Less fight and more fruitful discussion makes for a better conversation.

262 allegro  Jun 28, 2010 4:38:56pm

re: #259 Jaerik

Here’s the problem. “The American Experience” doesn’t mean what conservatives think it means, anymore. They’re clinging to a traditionally rural, conservative idealization of “average America” that hasn’t been true for many decades. Population statistics and demographic data clearly show this, and it’s never going to be that way again.

I’ve often suspected that they thought Mayberry was a half-hour weekly documentary.

263 wrenchwench  Jun 28, 2010 4:39:44pm

re: #239 allegro

I rather question the Santorum’s judgement in risking the mother’s life by carrying a certain to die fetus when they have 3 little children at home. A dead baby is more important than 3 living little kids having a healthy mom?

Excellent point.

According to Karen Santorum’s book, ”Letters to Gabriel: The True Story of Gabriel Michael Santorum,” she later developed a life-threatening intrauterine infection and a fever that reached nearly 105 degrees. She went into labor when she was 20 weeks pregnant. After resisting at first, she allowed doctors to give her the drug Pitocin to speed the birth.

She did come close to death, it looks like. They may have considered the Pitocin an abortifacient, and not allowable even then.

264 The Curmudgeon  Jun 28, 2010 4:40:14pm

This is a tricky thread to dig into. In one sense, I think I have a glimmer of what Santorum is saying. By that I mean that I don’t have anything in common with Obama, other than the fact that we went to school. And even as to that, we certainly learned different things. On the other hand, I’m dead certain that I have nothing in common with Santorum. So maybe I’m the alien around here.

265 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 4:40:17pm

re: #251 prairiefire

Sorry, I didn’t realize I’d already shown that article to you. Dani continues to do well with the love and support of the Lierows.

As someone who’s been responsible in a very limited way for developmentally disabled children, the idea of being totally, parentally responsible for one is incredibly intimidating. All honor to your sister in her parenting, and I hope her son meets only those who love and care for him in his life on this too-often cruel world.

266 Charles Johnson  Jun 28, 2010 4:40:32pm

Here’s an account at the New York Times: The Believer.

The childbirth in 1996 was a source of terrible heartbreak — the couple were told by doctors early in the pregnancy that the baby Karen was carrying had a fatal defect and would survive only for a short time outside the womb. According to Karen Santorum’s book, ”Letters to Gabriel: The True Story of Gabriel Michael Santorum,” she later developed a life-threatening intrauterine infection and a fever that reached nearly 105 degrees. She went into labor when she was 20 weeks pregnant. After resisting at first, she allowed doctors to give her the drug Pitocin to speed the birth. Gabriel lived just two hours.

What happened after the death is a kind of snapshot of a cultural divide. Some would find it discomforting, strange, even ghoulish — others brave and deeply spiritual. Rick and Karen Santorum would not let the morgue take the corpse of their newborn; they slept that night in the hospital with their lifeless baby between them. The next day, they took him home. ”Your siblings could not have been more excited about you!” Karen writes in the book, which takes the form of letters to Gabriel, mostly while he is in utero. ”Elizabeth and Johnny held you with so much love and tenderness. Elizabeth proudly announced to everyone as she cuddled you, ‘This is my baby brother, Gabriel; he is an angel.’ ”

I’m in the camp that finds this ghoulish and sickening.

267 albusteve  Jun 28, 2010 4:41:09pm

I don’t do dead babies…moving on

268 Mich-again  Jun 28, 2010 4:41:53pm

Deciding to bring a baby with a fatal defect to full term is a private decision for the parents and in the case the parents don’t agree between themselves, I’d say the mother’s preference clearly matters more. But to then after making that private decision, to use the experience as a means for political gain, well that’s just wrong. Its like how in 2006, Green Helmet guy in Lebanon used the dead baby as a prop in the PR war against Israel. Same principle at work.

269 wrenchwench  Jun 28, 2010 4:42:44pm

re: #266 Charles

The fact that Karen Santorum was a nurse is relevant, IMHO. She had to know what the reality of her situation was.

270 Bagua  Jun 28, 2010 4:43:31pm

re: #260 albusteve

that’s all hearsay…and if were true why would it be a strength? rather than, say, a weakness?…just for the sake of argument

Just my personal intuition. I’ve always seen Americans as very insular, like they lived on an Island separate from the rest of humanity. My feeling was that having a President who spoke additional languages and lived in a different culture would be better able to communicate with the rest of the world than the “typical” American President. This would be a strength in dealing with, and understanding foreign leaders and their nations.

271 Gus  Jun 28, 2010 4:43:39pm

OK, so far Obama is rather average.

He has a front yard (in Chicago).
He loves baseball.
He’s a Christian.
He’s married and has kids.
He loves to eat.
He drinks beer.

272 researchok  Jun 28, 2010 4:44:15pm

re: #266 Charles

Here’s an account at the New York Times: The Believer.

I’m in the camp that finds this ghoulish and sickening.

Whatever they were thinking they, should have kept the event private.. Instead the dead child becomes a prop for both the Santorums and a particular agenda. That to me, is the horror show.

273 Boogberg  Jun 28, 2010 4:44:26pm

re: #262 allegro

I’ve often suspected that they thought Mayberry was a half-hour weekly documentary.

Don’t be hatin’ on Andy Griffith.

274 Bagua  Jun 28, 2010 4:44:26pm

re: #271 Gus 802

OK, so far Obama is rather average.

He has a front yard (in Chicago).
He loves baseball.
He’s a Christian.
He’s married and has kids.
He loves to eat.
He drinks beer.

Exactly. All depends on the categories one uses.

275 Mich-again  Jun 28, 2010 4:44:29pm

re: #271 Gus 802

You forgot the dog!

276 Aceofwhat?  Jun 28, 2010 4:45:01pm

re: #246 Obdicut

I haven’t said word one about Santorum’s particular case. However, I believe this to be true:
.

Gah. Take the word of the NYT at its face at your peril.

When a life-threatening physical abnormality was detected at 19 weeks, the letters took on a different meaning with Karen desperately hoping and praying that one day Gabriel would be able to read in them the story of his miraculous cure. In a cruel irony, the miracle she prayed so hard for did occur when a lifesaving operation was successfully done while Gabriel was still in utero. Forty-eight hours later infection set in and a perfectly formed, but too premature Gabriel Michael Santorum was born and died.

The baby apparently had posterior urethral valve obstruction, which CAN be treated, though with difficulty, via intrauterine surgery.

I’m quite surprised that more of you didn’t pause to get your facts straight before making such harsh accusations.

277 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 4:45:28pm

re: #276 Aceofwhat?

What harsh accusation have I made, Ace?

278 allegro  Jun 28, 2010 4:46:15pm

re: #273 Boogberg

Don’t be hatin’ on Andy Griffith.

Oh, never ever. I’ve always loved Andy, Opie, “Aint” Bea, Barney, Goober, Gomer, and the gang. However I do recognize it as delightful, entertaining fiction and not real life.

279 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Jun 28, 2010 4:46:28pm

re: #271 Gus 802

OK, so far Obama is rather average.

He has a front yard (in Chicago).
He loves baseball.
He’s a Christian.
He’s married and has kids.
He loves to eat.
He drinks beer.

Come on Gus, you saw as well as I did up thread there - OBAMA SAW INDONESIAN THINGS IN SCHOOL AT A FORMATIVE AGE. HE CAN NEVER BE TRULY AMURKIN.

280 Aceofwhat?  Jun 28, 2010 4:46:39pm

re: #247 Charles

No. This baby had what was described as “a fatal defect,” and the Santorums were told it would survive outside the womb for only a few hours. And they were told this very early in the pregnancy.

PUV obstruction can be a fatal defect, but it is an OPERABLE defect.

The Santorums were told nothing of the sort until the operation had already failed (because it wouldn’t be true before the operation).

281 Gus  Jun 28, 2010 4:46:43pm

re: #275 Mich-again

You forgot the dog!

Yep. Has a dog. Loves basketball and football.

282 prairiefire  Jun 28, 2010 4:46:50pm

re: #265 Obdicut

Thank you Obdicut, he is doing well. His classmates do make comments to him about his condition, but his teachers say it is a “take him as he is” sort of way. He is a stoic, strong, and hilarious little dude.
His nurses call him “the little General.”

283 Mich-again  Jun 28, 2010 4:46:53pm

A good question to ask along this thread is why are African American Conservatives attacked for not being black enough? Condi Rice comes to mind.

284 researchok  Jun 28, 2010 4:47:00pm

re: #271 Gus 802

OK, so far Obama is rather average.

He has a front yard (in Chicago).
He loves baseball.
He’s a Christian.
He’s married and has kids.
He loves to eat.
He drinks beer.

Yeah, but he doesn’t look good riding a bike. It is unlikely he will be asked to throw out the first pitch again. And he has NO beer belly and he’s pretty cut. And….his wife grows VEGETABLES! How freakin average is that???

//

285 b_sharp  Jun 28, 2010 4:49:10pm

re: #164 celticdragon

And this is from the guy who compares my marriage to having sex with farm animals.

Words fail.

Huh?

Who in the hell would say that?

286 Mich-again  Jun 28, 2010 4:49:26pm

re: #232 Obdicut

I haven’t been on the site much over the past weeks (marriage, honeymoon, moving) but I’ve read quite a few of your posts that I thought were absolutely excellent. Thank you.

You know, they say Marriage makes you live longer. But in reality, it just makes it seem longer. ha.

287 researchok  Jun 28, 2010 4:50:00pm

re: #281 Gus 802

Yep. Has a dog. Loves basketball and football.

AND NO WORD ON WHETHER OR NOT HE BBQ’s.

He must be a commie plant.

//

288 allegro  Jun 28, 2010 4:50:51pm

re: #287 researchok

AND NO WORD ON WHETHER OR NOT HE BBQ’s.

Now that would be a fun Bobby Flay throw down.

289 Aceofwhat?  Jun 28, 2010 4:50:54pm

re: #277 Obdicut

What harsh accusation have I made, Ace?
——-
If one is certain that a baby will die after birth, and that its only experience of life will be pain, and that it will never develop the mental faculties to deal with that pain, then it is monstrous to bring that child into a world to simply suffer and die.

If the operation is not a success and the baby is coming out, interrupting the labor by killing the baby is better than letting the baby be born and die in its parents’ arms?

BTW, it doesn’t appear that babies feel pain before the 24th week, according to research posted in the LGF pages a few days ago.

So either you’re making a harsh accusation, or making a hypothetical statement that has absolutely nothing to do with the Santorums’ situation, despite their being the subject of the thread.

290 Mich-again  Jun 28, 2010 4:51:14pm

re: #287 researchok

AND NO WORD ON WHETHER OR NOT HE BBQ’s.

He must be a commie plant.

//

Rumor is he BBQ’s on a gas grill instead of using a charcoal grill. My God what kind of monster have we elected!

291 Ryan King  Jun 28, 2010 4:51:38pm
…she writes that the couple brought the deceased infant home from the hospital and introduced the dead child to their living children as “your brother Gabriel” and slept with the body overnight before returning it to the hospital.

What the hell?

292 Decatur Deb  Jun 28, 2010 4:52:58pm

re: #283 Mich-again

A good question to ask along this thread is why are African American Conservatives attacked for not being black enough? Condi Rice comes to mind.

Because people stereotypically expect “average” Blacks to expand the liberal embrace of tolerance, which has benefited them, into the entire liberal worldview.

293 researchok  Jun 28, 2010 4:53:48pm

re: #290 Mich-again

Rumor is he BBQ’s on a gas grill instead of using a charcoal grill. My God what kind of monster have we elected!

You know, I’ve never seen a picture of him with a chain saw…

294 Aceofwhat?  Jun 28, 2010 4:54:01pm

re: #266 Charles

Here’s an account at the New York Times: The Believer.

I’m in the camp that finds this ghoulish and sickening.

The NYT really is crap. She developed an intrauterine infection because they fixed the defect in the operation.

Nice of them to frame the facts in as horrible a light as possible, leading even well-meaning people like you to the wrong conclusion.

295 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Jun 28, 2010 4:55:32pm

re: #290 Mich-again

Rumor is he BBQ’s on a gas grill instead of using a charcoal grill. My God what kind of monster have we elected!

Hey! I’m going to cook the steaks on a gas grill tonight! What, exactly, are you saying?

296 allegro  Jun 28, 2010 4:56:50pm

re: #295 EmmmieG

Hey! I’m going to cook the steaks on a gas grill tonight! What, exactly, are you saying?

You… you… elitist!

297 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Jun 28, 2010 4:57:24pm

re: #296 allegro

You… you… elitist!

When it comes to steaks, I do admit to wanting the good stuff.

298 Mich-again  Jun 28, 2010 4:58:40pm

In my very average American subdivision there is a Pakistani family a few doors down and I crack up every time I see mom in her Burka pulling the cord 10 times on the lawnmower to get it started. Like.. dude, give your old lady a break and get the LawnBoy tuned up. Aint that America. If it was the old country, she probably wouldn’t even have the privilege of getting the opportunity to mow the lawn.

299 Boogberg  Jun 28, 2010 4:59:53pm

re: #278 allegro

Oh, never ever. I’ve always loved Andy, Opie, “Aint” Bea, Barney, Goober, Gomer, and the gang. However I do recognize it as delightful, entertaining fiction and not real life.

I think a lot of the show’s appeal was that it was probably quite similar to many small rural communities at the time.

300 Mich-again  Jun 28, 2010 5:00:17pm

re: #295 EmmmieG

Hey! I’m going to cook the steaks on a gas grill tonight! What, exactly, are you saying?

Steaks on a gas grill? ugh. Might as well boil them. /

301 b_sharp  Jun 28, 2010 5:01:42pm

re: #181 Bagua

Bullshit, heaven forbid you will ever have to make such a choice.

The idea that judgment cannot be passed without experiencing the same or similar event is false. There is also a difference between accepting the difficulty of the decision and recognizing the moral consequence of that decision.

Obdi was also careful to specify the target of his ire as a subset of events, one that can be morally weighted.

302 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 5:02:09pm

re: #280 Aceofwhat?

It’s a case-by-case basis.

Their private medical history is their own private medical history. I don’t even want to know what the particulars of their case is.

What I am saying is in the cases where the child will not, in any reasonable estimation, survive to maturity and will suffer, bearing that child to suffer and die is monstrous.

Obviously the Santorums did not have this happen, as the child died in the womb. Whether it was a wise attempt to corrupt the defect or not I cannot judge and would not wish to judge.

re: #289 Aceofwhat?

If the operation is not a success and the baby is coming out, interrupting the labor by killing the baby is better than letting the baby be born and die in its parents’ arms?

I’m not sure what you’re referring to. The operation isn’t done immediately before birth, but quite awhile before birth. And yes, I am saying that if the baby will just suffer and die, it is better to prevent that suffering, since the baby will never achieve the intellectual capacity to deal with the pain and understand what has happened to it.


BTW, it doesn’t appear that babies feel pain before the 24th week, according to research posted in the LGF pages a few days ago.

This is not relevant to anything I’ve said.


So either you’re making a harsh accusation, or making a hypothetical statement that has absolutely nothing to do with the Santorums’ situation, despite their being the subject of the thread.

How on earth would it have nothing to do with their situation? As I’ve said, I don’t even want the knowledge of what their situation exactly was. I do think it’s reprehensible to use the experience politically, but I can (barely) believe that it was purely a personal recounting of the experience. However, I do not see why you’re so insistent on hewing exactly to only talking about the Santorum’s experience. It obviously brings up the larger ethical question in general.

If the fetus died in a justifiable attempt to correct the defect, then that is tragic. However, I am loathe to trust their word on the subject.

There is no way of telling whether or not the judgement was the correct one, but Santorum’s general stance on abortion is so reactionary that I am loathe to trust his or his wife’s version of events on a matter touching on natal affairs.

ontheissues.org

For example:


S. 3 As Amended; Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003. Vote to pass a bill banning a medical procedure, which is commonly known as “partial-birth” abortion. Those who performed this procedure would then face fines and up to two years in prison, the women to whom this procedure is performed on are not held criminally liable. This bill would make the exception for cases in which a women’s life is in danger, not for cases where a women’s health is in danger.
303 b_sharp  Jun 28, 2010 5:06:04pm

re: #187 Obdicut

The average American is a newly sworn in citizen from China, here in the land of freedom.

The average American is a Tennesee coal-miner, the son and grandson and great-grandson of coal miners.

The average American is a Hawaiian of Japanese ancestry who’s grandfather joined the Nisei brigades and whose other grandfather was put in the camps.

The average American is a smart-ass Jewish kid from the Bronx.

We’re all average Americans. We’re all Americans. This country rules.

Determining the average American/Canadian/whatever, is only necessary when trying to determine a trend, certainly not when trying to determine an individual’s position.

304 Boogberg  Jun 28, 2010 5:06:14pm

re: #283 Mich-again

A good question to ask along this thread is why are African American Conservatives attacked for not being black enough? Condi Rice comes to mind.

Oh yeah. “Oreos”. A quaint little slur from the kook wing of the left.

305 Cato the Elder  Jun 28, 2010 5:09:33pm

re: #266 Charles

Here’s an account at the New York Times: The Believer.

I’m in the camp that finds this ghoulish and sickening.

The problem is not that you or I might find it ghoulish and sickening. It remains a personal

Here’s the problem.

They wrote a book about it. That’s because they want people to know what happened.

And why to politicians and their wives write books?

To get points with the people who might vote for them because of what they write.

So the Santorums are going after the ghoulish and sickening vote.

306 Boogberg  Jun 28, 2010 5:09:49pm

I just heard Oprah is worth $2.7 Billion. Dayumm!

307 b_sharp  Jun 28, 2010 5:10:41pm

re: #199 tradewind

Oh, bullshiite. ’ A newly sworn in citizen from China ’ would be the first to tell you that he/she is unusually fortunate and blessed to be here, as are we, the nation, to receive them as citizens , but ‘average ‘? Get a dictionary. The example you cite is one of a person who is fully American, equally American, but certainly not average.

Which average are you using, mean, mode or median?

308 elizajane  Jun 28, 2010 5:11:46pm

re: #304 Boogberg

Honestly, how many lefties did you ever hear say that about Rice, or Powell, or almost any black conservative, possibly excepting Clarence Thomas? I lived in Berkeley during the Bush years and I never heard anybody say anything like that, or really anything disrespectful at all about Condi Rice.

309 allegro  Jun 28, 2010 5:13:21pm

re: #302 Obdicut

This bill would make the exception for cases in which a women’s life is in danger, not for cases where a women’s health is in danger.

That is entirely evil.

310 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 5:17:20pm

re: #309 allegro

It’s also disingenuous; life and health are pretty damn well-linked.

Such things should be between doctor and patient. As I said before, I don’t favor any legislation on the subject, either forcing people to bear children or forcing them to abort children. Leave it up to the people who are the most ethically responsible.

That would change if the parents then took steps to keep a child that would inevitably die alive, and suffering, for a long period of time, but those cases are so immensely rare I doubt we need special legislation for them, either.

311 Aceofwhat?  Jun 28, 2010 5:18:04pm

re: #302 Obdicut

It’s a case-by-case basis.

Their private medical history is their own private medical history. I don’t even want to know what the particulars of their case is.

You responded to comments about whether we could “judge” the Santorums. Knowing the particulars of the case, seeing as how they wrote about it and are therefore willing to let us discuss it in public, seems relevant. Otherwise you are not, in fact, in a position to “judge”.


I’m not sure what you’re referring to. The operation isn’t done immediately before birth, but quite awhile before birth. And yes, I am saying that if the baby will just suffer and die, it is better to prevent that suffering, since the baby will never achieve the intellectual capacity to deal with the pain and understand what has happened to it.

The fact that there was an operation = the baby is not expected to suffer and die upon birth. Otherwise…one does not operate. Follow?

This is not relevant to anything I’ve said.

Au contraire, copain. If a baby cannot feel pain before the 24th week, then one subjects a 20-week old to no more pain should they wish the baby to die in their arms rather than at the hands of a doctor. I mean, really…if pain is not the consideration (and it wasn’t in the example we are discussing, the one you considered yourself eligible to judge), you’d still actually say out loud that it’s better to slaughter the baby in the womb than to let it expire in its parents’ arms?? Yowza.

If the fetus died in a justifiable attempt to correct the defect, then that is tragic. However, I am loathe to trust their word on the subject.

There is no way of telling whether or not the judgement was the correct one, but Santorum’s general stance on abortion is so reactionary that I am loathe to trust his or his wife’s version of events on a matter touching on natal affairs..

I understand that they have little credibility for you on the subject of abortion-related topics. But clearly the NYT fucked up here. PUV obstruction is an operable condition. So right away, basic medical information makes the Santorums’ story understandable and makes the NYT false on its face.

If you don’t want to get into their specific situation, that’s fine, but their specific situation is what was on the table when you waded in and said that you were qualified to judge. Hopefully you can understand why at that point, i thought you were judging their particular situation.

Charles certainly was judging, and i quite beg to differ with him on the conclusion. OTOH, i’m in full agreement that Santorum’s comments about Obama are ridiculous and wholly without merit.

(not that the useful idiots on T/S or at the stalker blog will give me credit for not being a syncophant…but hey…at least i can flex in the mirror and impress myself;)

(ok, not really. 160lbs just isn’t impressive in any mirror, even with my overdeveloped sense of self-admiration)

312 Mich-again  Jun 28, 2010 5:20:32pm

re: #308 elizajane

Oh c’mon. Spend 2 minutes on google. How about Harry Belafonte calling her a house slave? Or sort through the Kos Kid comments in this thread.. I could go on, but its a hapless task trying to overcome willful ignorance.

313 Aceofwhat?  Jun 28, 2010 5:21:07pm

re: #305 Cato the Elder

The problem is not that you or I might find it ghoulish and sickening. It remains a personal

Here’s the problem.

They wrote a book about it. That’s because they want people to know what happened.

And why to politicians and their wives write books?

To get points with the people who might vote for them because of what they write.

So the Santorums are going after the ghoulish and sickening vote.

I like that better. My fellow humans are entitled to a short period of pure crazy after losing a child.

Writing a book about it at least opens the book up for criticism.

314 Mich-again  Jun 28, 2010 5:21:45pm

re: #306 Boogberg

I just heard Oprah is worth $2.7 Billion. Dayumm!

More power to her. That’s what capitalism is all about.

315 Aceofwhat?  Jun 28, 2010 5:22:21pm

re: #307 b_sharp

Which average are you using, mean, mode or median?

and can we get the PDF and CDF for that distribution or what//

316 elizajane  Jun 28, 2010 5:22:41pm

re: #155 Gus 802

Another case in point: Japanese-American internment. German-Americans did not face this kind of treatment.

Fast forward to 2001. Many on the far right sought the internment of Muslim or Arab-Americans.

There were people who’d have liked to see Germans shut away too. The British certainly did it. Heck, they actually deported Jewish refugees who happened to be German.
The reason the Japanese got interned here and the Germans got interned in Britain had quite a lot to do with geography and specific fears about possible subversive actions. Obviously there was racism involved too, but it was abetted by those other circumstances. The Muslim thing was pure racism with no mitigating rationale.

317 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 5:26:44pm

re: #311 Aceofwhat?

I understand that they have little credibility for you on the subject of abortion-related topics. But clearly the NYT fucked up here. PUV obstruction is an operable condition. So right away, basic medical information makes the Santorums’ story understandable and makes the NYT false on its face.


Dude: Basic medical information is that PUV is decided on a case-by-cases basis whether or not it is a survivable— even with surgery— condition.

Whether or not the NYT fucked up you don’t actually know. The particular PUV their child had could have been considered by 99 doctors to be inoperable, with one willing to try. They say the results were that he was then ‘perfectly formed’; that may or may not be true.

It may also be that the damage to the renal system had already occurred.

You cannot call bullshit on the NYT without knowing the details of the case beyond the testimony of the mother. Given the Santorum’s history on abortion, I don’t grant her testimony credence.

318 Boogberg  Jun 28, 2010 5:28:24pm

re: #314 Mich-again

More power to her. That’s what capitalism is all about.

Indeed. And she ain’t stingy with her cash, either.

319 Cato the Elder  Jun 28, 2010 5:29:55pm

re: #305 Cato the Elder

PIMF: “personal thing”

320 SanFranciscoZionist  Jun 28, 2010 5:32:45pm

re: #6 RogueOne

You can’t think of anything else that separates Hawaii from the rest of us other than race?

[Link: maps.google.com…]

Hawaii is no farther from San Francisco than Boston is, and Anchorage to Boston is a thousand miles farther.

Meh.

321 Aceofwhat?  Jun 28, 2010 5:34:07pm

re: #317 Obdicut

Dude: Basic medical information is that PUV is decided on a case-by-cases basis whether or not it is a survivable— even with surgery— condition.

Whether or not the NYT fucked up you don’t actually know. The particular PUV their child had could have been considered by 99 doctors to be inoperable, with one willing to try. They say the results were that he was then ‘perfectly formed’; that may or may not be true.

It may also be that the damage to the renal system had already occurred.

You cannot call bullshit on the NYT without knowing the details of the case beyond the testimony of the mother. Given the Santorum’s history on abortion, I don’t grant her testimony credence.

Oops - except - except - the NYT is stating that they are getting their facts from the book. “According to Karen Santorum’s book,” and then a complete misrepresentation of what is in Karen Santorum’s book.

So, yeah. We have two sources…then we find out we really only have one source, because the second was simply a distortion of the first.

This is sensitive shit. We should either have proof (i.e. a link) that the Santorums are lying or take their word on the general timeline of events.

Per her book, the operation was successful. Therefore, it couldn’t have been the most horrible decision ever. The post-op infection is what seems to have kicked off the unfortunate premature birth.

322 Decatur Deb  Jun 28, 2010 5:34:22pm

re: #312 Mich-again

Oh c’mon. Spend 2 minutes on google. How about Harry Belafonte calling her a house slave? Or sort through the Kos Kid comments in this thread.. I could go on, but its a hapless task trying to overcome willful ignorance.

Did you read the Kos thread? I got several lesbian rumours, 1 “fucking liar”, 1 “bitch”. That’s pretty weak tea, and waste of my time.

323 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Jun 28, 2010 5:34:45pm

Lighter moment:

I knew a woman who felt so strongly that her unborn child was a member of the family already that she claimed him on her tax return.

(Obviously yes, this occurred before they required SSN’s.)

324 SanFranciscoZionist  Jun 28, 2010 5:34:53pm

re: #10 aurelius

I’ll give him a pass on the kid. Can’t imagine the emotions. Anything at that moment is OK by me.

That’s pretty much my take. It seems very bizarre, and would not be permitted by Jewish practice, but I can’t find it in me to criticize what a man does at such a mind-shattering moment.

325 Cato the Elder  Jun 28, 2010 5:35:11pm

re: #313 Aceofwhat?

I like that better. My fellow humans are entitled to a short period of pure crazy after losing a child.

Writing a book about it at least opens the book up for criticism.

Thank you.

If Haku the dog gets sick, I will spend any available amount of money to make him well. Some might call that obscene.

And if he goes before I do (which at my age is far from certain), I will mourn him in my own way.

If I write a book about it, it’s at best a harmless tearjerker, at second-best a bid for fame and fortune, and at worst a cynical ploy on my part to get voting rights for dogs.

326 SanFranciscoZionist  Jun 28, 2010 5:36:51pm

re: #25 tradewind

That’s a little disingenuous. Even Hawaii citizens refer to ’ the Mainland’, just as Alaskans refer to ’ the Lower 48’. Sure they are Americans, but their experience is undeniably different.

True, but oddly enough, Sarah Palin’s handlers continue to promote the Alaskan experience as extra-special super-American.

327 Cato the Elder  Jun 28, 2010 5:40:40pm

re: #326 SanFranciscoZionist

True, but oddly enough, Sarah Palin’s handlers continue to promote the Alaskan experience as extra-special super-American.

That’s because it involves killing wolves.

328 Bagua  Jun 28, 2010 5:40:42pm

re: #325 Cato the Elder


If I write a book about it, it’s at best a harmless tearjerker, at second-best a bid for fame and fortune, and at worst a cynical ploy on my part to get voting rights for dogs.

If you wrote a book Cato, I’m sure it would be an excellent read however ordinary the subject.

329 zora  Jun 28, 2010 5:40:58pm

re: #266 Charles

it’s hard to believe the children had such a lovely time with a 20 week old fetus. google a pic of a 20 week old fetus if you can’t imagine what one looks like.

330 Charles Johnson  Jun 28, 2010 5:42:35pm

re: #329 zora

it’s hard to believe the children had such a lovely time with a 20 week old fetus. google a pic of a 20 week old fetus if you can’t imagine what one looks like.

It’s just mind-blowing to me that anyone would do something like this in the 21st century. And even more mind-blowing that the hospital allowed it. Santorum probably pulled some strings to get them to agree to let him do it.

331 SanFranciscoZionist  Jun 28, 2010 5:50:31pm

re: #38 RogueOne

No, I’m actually referring to the hawaii part. Lets try this, we are not all the same. Regardless of the need to feel part of the group we are individuals first. I’m not like you anymore than I’m like Albusteve. Our experiences are different, what makes us who we are are completely different. Obama has a different upbringing than the average american, it is what makes him “him”. It’s the same with military brats who have had the opportunites to travel and experience life differently than their counterparts who are stuck never leaving the counties of their births. If you don’t know the difference between growing up in Dayton OH and Honolulu, I don’t know what to tell you.

The difference is that saying that a politician doesn’t identify with the average American, and is detached from the American experience, and doesn’t understand ‘love of country’ and ‘basic values’ of Americans because he grew up in a particular state is pretty clearly an attack on that politician and that state.

332 SanFranciscoZionist  Jun 28, 2010 5:51:50pm

re: #46 Obdicut

By those criteria, Rogue, nobody is an average American. Nobody. We are all different.

Define what an “average American” is, in the context of Santorum’s remarks.

“He’s an average Asian.
Something something, this occasion.
He was born in Boston Mass.,
Now he wants a piece of ass,
He’s an aaaaveraaaage Asian!”

333 SanFranciscoZionist  Jun 28, 2010 5:53:07pm

re: #67 webevintage

WTH?
Just what the hell is a “regular American” or the “American experience” anyway?
Are they only Christian or only live in small towns or only white or maybe they have never traveled outside the US.
Did their families get here before 1920?
Just what makes someone a “regular American”?

And Santorum is a bastard who needs to STFU…

Clue: Sarah Palin is a ‘regular American’.

334 Boogberg  Jun 28, 2010 5:54:06pm

re: #322 Decatur Deb

Did you read the Kos thread? I got several lesbian rumours, 1 “fucking liar”, 1 “bitch”. That’s pretty weak tea, and waste of my time.

Yeah. Friendly jibes, no doubt.

335 Aceofwhat?  Jun 28, 2010 5:55:10pm

re: #331 SanFranciscoZionist

The difference is that saying that a politician doesn’t identify with the average American, and is detached from the American experience, and doesn’t understand ‘love of country’ and ‘basic values’ of Americans because he grew up in a particular state is pretty clearly an attack on that politician and that state.

Yeah. I never liked all of the ‘regular guy’ crap that folks expect from politicians. I don’t want a regular politician. I want a Churchill. I want an exceptional example of our great nation.

336 SanFranciscoZionist  Jun 28, 2010 5:55:29pm

re: #75 aurelius

wasn’t his mother’s family from around there?

Yeah, the Dunhams were Kansas folks. (BTW: Check out a picture of Obama’s maternal grandfather sometime, the man is the spitting image of his grandson. The smile and the cheekbones are identical.)

337 Randall Gross  Jun 28, 2010 5:55:56pm

re: #206 Thanos

Rumor has it that McChrystal is submitting retirement papers tomorrow

Make that Wednesday, sorry came unstuck in time again…

338 prairiefire  Jun 28, 2010 5:57:27pm

re: #335 Aceofwhat?

Yeah. I never liked all of the ‘regular guy’ crap that folks expect from politicians. I don’t want a regular politician. I want a Churchill. I want an exceptional example of our great nation.

In my opinion, that is what President Obama is.

339 b_sharp  Jun 28, 2010 5:57:52pm

re: #333 SanFranciscoZionist

Clue: Sarah Palin is a ‘regular American’.

So is everyone who gets enough roughage in her diet.

340 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Jun 28, 2010 6:03:12pm

Lewis Black: [referring to Rick Santorum calling gays a “threat to the american family”] It’s prejudice, and it’s ignorance, on a level that is staggering at this point in time. But, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe there’s a group of gay bandidos. They travel from village to dell. And as night falls, they travel to that cul-de-sac, where only one house stands. And in the window, you see a family, just setting down to their evening meal. And these queers… these queers… don their black hoods, and matching pumps, very tasteful. Sneak up to the house ever so slightly, open the door, and start… FUCKING EACH OTHER IN THE ASS! AND ANOTHER AMERICAN FAMILY… IS DESTROYED!

341 SanFranciscoZionist  Jun 28, 2010 6:03:14pm

re: #102 WindUpBird

I dislike the othering of any American based on their background. I intensely dislike it. I dislike the idea that someone in one state cannot relate at all as a leader to people in another state. That’s what Santorum is saying. he’s literally saying that education and what state he lived in makes Obama UNABLE TO LEAD. It’s ridiculous and insane. As if the president is supposed to be an amalgam of marketing imagery instead of a person. Idiocracy made flesh, coming out of Santorum’s mouth.

I’ve mentioned before that I believe that my Congressman is not actually a person but a marketing product. “John Garamendi: The Proven Democrat”. He grew up on a California ranch, and has golden retrievers. I am pretty sure he was concocted out of phrases that resonated well with Northern California suburban voters.

342 Boogberg  Jun 28, 2010 6:04:24pm

re: #338 prairiefire

If he can keep his cool, I’ll vote for re-election. Shoulda been a major hint when Colin Powell endorsed him.

343 Charles Johnson  Jun 28, 2010 6:05:00pm

re: #321 Aceofwhat?

If the New York Times got this so wrong, why didn’t the Santorums demand a correction? This piece was an in-depth profile of Santorum, and it’s actually pretty positive toward him. There’s no doubt that he read it. Do you think he just didn’t notice that they had misrepresented what happened — in a section about one of the most emotional events in their lives?

I don’t know whose account is correct, but I’m inclined to accept the New York Times’s version, because the Santorums have already demonstrated that they have a rather tenuous connection to reality and facts.

344 Cato the Elder  Jun 28, 2010 6:05:00pm

re: #328 Bagua

If you wrote a book Cato, I’m sure it would be an excellent read however ordinary the subject.

Hell, dude, someday I’m going to write a little treatise on matches. (Estimated length: about the same as Robert Burton’s “Anatomy of Melancholy”.)

Not the matches you make in your sex life. The ones you use to light your candles.

Believe me, there is an entire six-volume work there, with copious footnotes.

345 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Jun 28, 2010 6:05:39pm

re: #192 Bagua

Your mistake is thinking you can make that decision for others. You overrate yourself.

Your hypothetical whinging loses, Bagua

346 Ryan King  Jun 28, 2010 6:06:18pm

re: #331 SanFranciscoZionist

The difference is that saying that a politician doesn’t identify with the average American, and is detached from the American experience, and doesn’t understand ‘love of country’ and ‘basic values’ of Americans because he grew up in a particular state is pretty clearly an attack on that politician and that state.

Yes, I wonder how people in Hawaii feel about that. When speaking of the United States proper, you never say ‘back in the States,’ you say ‘the mainland.’ There are many WWII vet cemeteries here of which many of the dead are Japanese, Portuguese, islander, or a mix of the sort. One of the 4 security personnel killed in Iraq before the invasion (hung off the bridge) was a Hawaii born Ranger, grew up in Hilo and has a widow that still lives there.

This language has a tinge of the ‘heritage’ inference the ex-Sihk GOP’er in on the East Coast put up with from her opponent during the campaign.

347 Aceofwhat?  Jun 28, 2010 6:08:03pm

re: #338 prairiefire

In my opinion, that is what President Obama is.

Many do. I think that he’s above-average, too. I disagree with him on a number of things, but he’s turned out to be one of the least worst Democrats that we could have elected;)

348 Charles Johnson  Jun 28, 2010 6:08:43pm

And in any case, whether it’s true or not that the baby had a fatal condition and couldn’t survive, it is still deeply weird to take a 20-week fetus home and have your living children hold it.

349 Bagua  Jun 28, 2010 6:09:26pm

re: #344 Cato the Elder

Hell, dude, someday I’m going to write a little treatise on matches. (Estimated length: about the same as Robert Burton’s “Anatomy of Melancholy”.)

Not the matches you make in your sex life. The ones you use to light your candles.

Believe me, there is an entire six-volume work there, with copious footnotes.

I look forward to its publication.

350 Ryan King  Jun 28, 2010 6:09:28pm

re: #340 WindUpBird

That’s a good bit.

351 Ryan King  Jun 28, 2010 6:10:43pm

re: #348 Charles

And in any case, whether it’s true or not that the baby had a fatal condition and couldn’t survive, it is still deeply weird to take a 20-week fetus home and have your living children hold it.

Yeah, it is. When we are upset we do weird things so I can cut them slack, but it is very weird. Sorta like the ‘cooking of the placenta’ thingy too. Just… weird…

352 Bagua  Jun 28, 2010 6:11:01pm

re: #345 WindUpBird

Your hypothetical whinging loses, Bagua

Your tangential sniping loses, WindUpBird.

353 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Jun 28, 2010 6:11:04pm

re: #205 tradewind

Not that you’d ever taint anyone with teh ’ otherness ‘./
I’ve already posted why I think politicians try to ’ other-ize ’ their opponents. Republicans don’t have a monopoly on the tendency.

They don’t have a monopoly, they’re just way way way way way way way way more likely to use it as the entirety of their politicial strategy, witness they-took-rrr-jerbs nativism against Mexicans, legal and illegal, paranoia being drummed up against gays as perverts (witness the bigoted talking points against GLSEN, talking points which you yourself have repeated here on this very board) and of course the whole Southern Strategy…

I’m sorry your political arty has a whole bunch of bad people crafting its strategy, maybe you could do something besides apologizing and covering for it!

354 ReamWorks SKG  Jun 28, 2010 6:12:05pm

“wants and desires of it’s people.”

Did the Senator really misspell “its people”? Maybe he could have benefited from an Ivy League education!

355 SanFranciscoZionist  Jun 28, 2010 6:12:54pm

re: #201 HoosierHoops

There are over 300 million Americans…I’m pretty sure there isn’t an average one in the bunch…

This is America. All the children are above average.

356 Boogberg  Jun 28, 2010 6:14:22pm

re: #348 Charles

Seems like I saw a nature show of a mother baboon doing that. No disrespect but it was really sad.

357 prairiefire  Jun 28, 2010 6:16:03pm

re: #347 Aceofwhat?

*Snort* you are so kind. : )
I started out thinking that way with George W. Bush…

358 Aceofwhat?  Jun 28, 2010 6:16:07pm

re: #343 Charles

If the New York Times got this so wrong, why didn’t the Santorums demand a correction? This piece was an in-depth profile of Santorum, and it’s actually pretty positive toward him. There’s no doubt that he read it. Do you think he just didn’t notice that they had misrepresented what happened — in a section about one of the most emotional events in their lives?

I don’t know whose account is correct, but I’m inclined to accept the New York Times’s version, because the Santorums have already demonstrated that they have a rather tenuous connection to reality and facts.

I don’t know. I assume that they didn’t find the errors so egregious. But we can tell whose account is correct. The Santorums’ account reads similar to what you’d expect for the defect. The NYT can’t even quote the book correctly, and makes it sound as if it were a fatal, inoperable thing and then all of a sudden there was an infection out of nowhere.

Seems easy to me. You have the Santorums’ account and a slight misrepresentation of their account that only matters if one really takes issue with whether they were right to go ahead with the birth.

The reverse question would be, how could the Santorums lie so blatantly about a set of facts so easily contradicted by friends and family? If your baby has that defect, everyone around you knows. Believing that they made this up in absence of strong evidence to the contrary (and misquoting their book is not that) is tough sledding.

359 Crimsonfisted  Jun 28, 2010 6:16:27pm

re: #159 Obdicut

Or the shameful, terrible, awful treatment of Black GIs during WWII— many of whom were treated worse that Nazi POWs in the United States.

That is a stain that doesn’t vanish quickly.

well, then there’s this. When I first read about Staff Sergeant Edward A. Carter, Jr. heroism I cannot get his story out of my head. There should be a movie about him and this action. It still blows my mind.

As eight enemy riflemen attempted to capture him, Sergeant Carter killed six of them and captured the remaining two.
360 ReamWorks SKG  Jun 28, 2010 6:16:34pm

I’m not a big fan of Abortion; I’m of the “safe, legal, and rare” camp. However, a 20-week-old fetus isn’t a baby; it’s medical waste. Sorry to be so blunt about it. Bringing it home to display disrespectful, unsafe, and doesn’t show a proper reverence for the lost potential human life.

361 SanFranciscoZionist  Jun 28, 2010 6:17:01pm

re: #263 wrenchwench

She did come close to death, it looks like. They may have considered the Pitocin an abortifacient, and not allowable even then.

Possibly. They may have had some idea they could stop labor at that point and continue the pregnancy.

Aiyah.

362 Aceofwhat?  Jun 28, 2010 6:17:49pm

re: #348 Charles

And in any case, whether it’s true or not that the baby had a fatal condition and couldn’t survive, it is still deeply weird to take a 20-week fetus home and have your living children hold it.

yep. absolutely. do you have any idea how weird i’d be if i had lost my daughter?

there but for the grace of God go I…

363 prairiefire  Jun 28, 2010 6:18:09pm

re: #359 Crimsonfisted

Bookmarked to share with my son.

364 SanFranciscoZionist  Jun 28, 2010 6:18:28pm

re: #266 Charles

Here’s an account at the New York Times: The Believer.

I’m in the camp that finds this ghoulish and sickening.

I find the apparent decision to risk Karen’s life for a pregnancy with no possible successful outcome horrifying.

What you do after…shrug.

365 Reginald Perrin  Jun 28, 2010 6:19:00pm

re: #355 SanFranciscoZionist

This is America. All the children are above average.


I thought that only applied to children from Lake Wobegon.
///

366 Aceofwhat?  Jun 28, 2010 6:19:00pm

re: #360 reuven

I’m not a big fan of Abortion; I’m of the “safe, legal, and rare” camp. However, a 20-week-old fetus isn’t a baby; it’s medical waste. Sorry to be so blunt about it. Bringing it home to display disrespectful, unsafe, and doesn’t show a proper reverence for the lost potential human life.

losing a child can drive anyone crazy. judging them during that period is cold at best…

367 SanFranciscoZionist  Jun 28, 2010 6:19:35pm

re: #271 Gus 802

OK, so far Obama is rather average.

He has a front yard (in Chicago).
He loves baseball.
He’s a Christian.
He’s married and has kids.
He loves to eat.
He drinks beer.

Two kids, a few years apart.
His wife gardens.
He plays golf.

368 SanFranciscoZionist  Jun 28, 2010 6:20:56pm

re: #279 Jimmah

Come on Gus, you saw as well as I did up thread there - OBAMA SAW INDONESIAN THINGS IN SCHOOL AT A FORMATIVE AGE. HE CAN NEVER BE TRULY AMURKIN.

I’m getting nervous. I’m teaching sixth grade next year. If I show the kids ‘Indonesian things’ in Social Studies, will they ever be real Americans?

//Why am I worrying? We live in Northern California. They weren’t going to be real Americans anyway.

369 Crimsonfisted  Jun 28, 2010 6:21:03pm

re: #363 prairiefire

Yup. And for some reason, I can just picture this man. Kicking ass and taking names. A real hero among heroes. I don’t know why his story in particular captures me but it does. I keep going back to it.

370 SanFranciscoZionist  Jun 28, 2010 6:22:46pm

re: #298 Mich-again

In my very average American subdivision there is a Pakistani family a few doors down and I crack up every time I see mom in her Burka pulling the cord 10 times on the lawnmower to get it started. Like.. dude, give your old lady a break and get the LawnBoy tuned up. Aint that America. If it was the old country, she probably wouldn’t even have the privilege of getting the opportunity to mow the lawn.

She mows in a burqa? Now THAT is American. Not average. But very American.

371 Charles Johnson  Jun 28, 2010 6:23:41pm

re: #358 Aceofwhat?

The condition is operable in SOME cases. Not all.

372 SanFranciscoZionist  Jun 28, 2010 6:24:50pm

re: #308 elizajane

Honestly, how many lefties did you ever hear say that about Rice, or Powell, or almost any black conservative, possibly excepting Clarence Thomas? I lived in Berkeley during the Bush years and I never heard anybody say anything like that, or really anything disrespectful at all about Condi Rice.

Nor I, but there were some obnoxious cartoons circulated during the Bush years.

My very liberal parents like Condi because she was an old Cold Warrior, and was involved in the Soviet Jewry movement back in the day. My mother likes to say that she ‘fell in with bad companions’.

373 Boogberg  Jun 28, 2010 6:25:48pm

re: #368 SanFranciscoZionist

I’m getting nervous. I’m teaching sixth grade next year. If I show the kids ‘Indonesian things’ in Social Studies, will they ever be real Americans?

//Why am I worrying? We live in Northern California. They weren’t going to be real Americans anyway.

Sixth grade? Be mindful calling the boys to the chalk board. :D

374 bratwurst  Jun 28, 2010 6:26:17pm

re: #355 SanFranciscoZionist

This is America. All the children are above average.

Sure, until it is time for math class.
/

375 Crimsonfisted  Jun 28, 2010 6:27:39pm

re: #370 SanFranciscoZionist

She mows in a burqa? Now THAT is American. Not average. But very American.

Sounds extraordinarily DANGEROUS. Wow. Never wear anything dangly around machinery that could cut your fingers or toes off.

376 SanFranciscoZionist  Jun 28, 2010 6:27:58pm

re: #325 Cato the Elder

Thank you.

If Haku the dog gets sick, I will spend any available amount of money to make him well. Some might call that obscene.

And if he goes before I do (which at my age is far from certain), I will mourn him in my own way.

If I write a book about it, it’s at best a harmless tearjerker, at second-best a bid for fame and fortune, and at worst a cynical ploy on my part to get voting rights for dogs.

I would support voting rights for dogs, despite a suspicion that they would be really vulnerable to flag-wavin’ Republican rhetoric, and would probably have terrible voting records about immigration.

377 SanFranciscoZionist  Jun 28, 2010 6:30:49pm

re: #340 WindUpBird

Lewis Black: [referring to Rick Santorum calling gays a “threat to the american family”] It’s prejudice, and it’s ignorance, on a level that is staggering at this point in time. But, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe there’s a group of gay bandidos. They travel from village to dell. And as night falls, they travel to that cul-de-sac, where only one house stands. And in the window, you see a family, just setting down to their evening meal. And these queers… these queers… don their black hoods, and matching pumps, very tasteful. Sneak up to the house ever so slightly, open the door, and start… FUCKING EACH OTHER IN THE ASS! AND ANOTHER AMERICAN FAMILY… IS DESTROYED!

I have to say that this situation Lewis describes would make the gay bandidos very vulnerable to being shot by a startled homeowner.

But then, I suppose it’s hard to shoot gay bandidos while covering the eyes of your wife, your 2.4 children and your dog with your hands.

378 b_sharp  Jun 28, 2010 6:31:07pm

re: #376 SanFranciscoZionist

I would support voting rights for dogs, despite a suspicion that they would be really vulnerable to flag-wavin’ Republican rhetoric, and would probably have terrible voting records about immigration.

It would be way too easy to buy their votes with the promise of a bit of bacon.

379 Eclectic Infidel  Jun 28, 2010 6:31:35pm

re: #285 b_sharp

Huh?

Who in the hell would say that?


Rick “anyone who isn’t heterosexual isn’t a Real American” Santorum.

380 RogueOne  Jun 28, 2010 6:32:37pm

re: #102 WindUpBird

I dislike the othering of any American based on their background. I intensely dislike it.

I dislike the fact our planet only has one moon but that isn’t really getting me anywhere. People judge each other, it’s what we do and it’s actually in our genetic code to behave that way. It’s also why we have elections instead of just taking a general consensus.


I dislike the idea that someone in one state cannot relate at all as a leader to people in another state. That’s what Santorum is saying. he’s literally saying that education and what state he lived in makes Obama UNABLE TO LEAD. It’s ridiculous and insane. As if the president is supposed to be an amalgam of marketing imagery instead of a person. Idiocracy made flesh, coming out of Santorum’s mouth.

How is it any different than what was said about Kerry, Gore, Bush Sr., Dukakis, and Kagen just today? You man not like the argument but to jump to “it’s racism” as a defense is quite a leap. The president has been getting hit from both sides as being aloof, standoffish, and acting like a professor instead of kicking ass and taking names. It’s been such a drumbeat that the president felt it necessary to hold a meeting just so he would know who’s ass to kick. You guys are so quick to defend the president that you’re missing the argument and that complete misunderstanding is about to cost the dems the house and possibly the senate.

381 SanFranciscoZionist  Jun 28, 2010 6:32:43pm

re: #365 Reginald Perrin

I thought that only applied to children from Lake Wobegon.
///

Yes, but Lake Wobegon IS America.

382 Boogberg  Jun 28, 2010 6:32:45pm

re: #377 SanFranciscoZionist

Lewis Black is funny as hell! :D

383 b_sharp  Jun 28, 2010 6:33:12pm

re: #379 eclectic infidel

Rick “anyone who isn’t heterosexual isn’t a Real American” Santorum.

I suspect that when Santorum enters a barn, the goats make a run for it.

384 Eclectic Infidel  Jun 28, 2010 6:33:27pm

re: #379 eclectic infidel

Rick “anyone who isn’t heterosexual isn’t a Real American” Santorum.

In a much-publicized interview in 2003, he argued that the Supreme Court should not overturn state sodomy laws that ban homosexual sex and suggested that such a ruling would create a justification for bigamy, polygamy and incest. At one point, he even raised the specter of bestiality, using the phrase ”man on dog.”

source.

385 Aceofwhat?  Jun 28, 2010 6:35:38pm

re: #371 Charles

The condition is operable in SOME cases. Not all.

They had an operation, which the NYT conveniently fails to mention. Sorta seems like that’d be an important part of the story if you were summing up the book, which the NYT said they were.

Usually when folks have an operation, it’s because it’s operable. Further, the book says that the operation was initially ruled a success. Since the article conveniently forgets that there was an operation at all, i have a terribly hard time thinking that the article is at all worth considering.

386 Lidane  Jun 28, 2010 6:35:46pm

I will never, ever be able to think about Rick Santorum without immediately thinking of Dan Savage.

387 What, me worry?  Jun 28, 2010 6:36:29pm

re: #362 Aceofwhat?

yep. absolutely. do you have any idea how weird i’d be if i had lost my daughter?

there but for the grace of God go I…

Trying to read through all of this quickly, for me, the ghoulish part is bringing home the dead child. We bury within 24 hours. I mean, would you bring a full grown child home like that? A parent? A husband? Ack.

But I think most parents would opt for surgery, even in the first trimester if the surgery would improve the child’s survival. I don’t find that ghoulish at all.

388 Aceofwhat?  Jun 28, 2010 6:38:15pm

re: #371 Charles

The condition is operable in SOME cases. Not all.

and in any case, if it’s operable in SOME cases, it’s not a “fatal” condition…in fact, most cases are not so extreme.

389 SanFranciscoZionist  Jun 28, 2010 6:38:38pm

re: #378 b_sharp

It would be way too easy to buy their votes with the promise of a bit of bacon.

And dogs in Congress would add a whole new level to ‘pork’ issues.

390 SanFranciscoZionist  Jun 28, 2010 6:42:14pm

re: #386 Lidane

I will never, ever be able to think about Rick Santorum without immediately thinking of Dan Savage.

But that’s OK. Dan is a good person to think about.

391 Aceofwhat?  Jun 28, 2010 6:43:10pm

re: #389 SanFranciscoZionist

And dogs in Congress would add a whole new level to ‘pork’ issues.

Snausages!!

392 ReamWorks SKG  Jun 28, 2010 6:50:18pm

re: #367 SanFranciscoZionist

Obama is EXTREMELY representative of America. That’s one reason why he had so much popular support. Many Americans: first generation, children of immigrants, people of mixed heritage identified with him.

393 brownbagj  Jun 28, 2010 7:28:57pm

re: #392 reuven

Obama is EXTREMELY representative of America. That’s one reason why he had so much popular support. Many Americans: first generation, children of immigrants, people of mixed heritage identified with him.

And if people are really honest, somewhere along the line, we are all of mixed heritage.

394 elizajane  Jun 28, 2010 7:40:01pm

re: #367 SanFranciscoZionist

And lives in an urban area. Contrary to what the Real America people would have you believe, the average American lives in a city, small or large.

Sends his kids to a private school—and isn’t it a Quaker school? Religious! That’s a Real American thing although not an average one—average American kids go to public school.

395 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 28, 2010 7:40:21pm

re: #388 Aceofwhat?

and in any case, if it’s operable in SOME cases, it’s not a “fatal” condition…in fact, most cases are not so extreme.

It means it’s sometimes a fatal condition. Like I said— case-by-case basis.

396 Yashmak  Jun 29, 2010 10:46:48am

re: #338 prairiefire

In my opinion, that is what President Obama is.

Uh, a Churchill? REALLY? Churchill held out against, and then led his nation to victory against a nation which had managed to conquer the vast majority of Europe. As yet, Obama has not yet even managed to come to grips with Afghanistan (I hope for our troops’ sake that he does soon). Short of his ability to royally piss off the Brits (which Churchill also displayed from time to time), I don’t see the comparison.


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