GOP Attacks Thurgood Marshall In Kagan Hearing

The GOP in Texas pushed hard to get Thurgood Marshall removed from social studies textbooks, and today I watched in absolute disgust as the GOP in Washington actually smeared Thurgood Marshall during Kagan’s nomination hearing.

Here’s Dana Milbank’s take on this appalling example of the complete degradation of the Republican Party: Kagan may get confirmed, but Thurgood Marshall can forget it.

As confirmation hearings opened Monday afternoon, Republicans on the Senate Judiciary Committee took the unusual approach of attacking Kagan because she admired the late justice Thurgood Marshall, for whom she clerked more than two decades ago.

“Justice Marshall’s judicial philosophy,” said Sen. Jon Kyl (Ariz.), the No. 2 Republican in the Senate, “is not what I would consider to be mainstream.” Kyl — the lone member of the panel in shirtsleeves for the big event — was ready for a scrap. Marshall “might be the epitome of a results-oriented judge,” he said.

It was, to say the least, a curious strategy to go after Marshall, the iconic civil rights lawyer who successfully argued Brown vs. Board of Education. Did Republicans think it would help their cause to criticize the first African American on the Supreme Court, a revered figure who has been celebrated with an airport, a postage stamp and a Broadway show? The guy is a saint — literally. Marshall this spring was added to the Episcopal Church’s list of “Holy Women and Holy Men,” which the Episcopal Diocese of New York says “is akin to being granted sainthood.”

This foul talking point bubbled up from the very worst fringe elements of the right wing, and yes — at its core, this is pure and simple racism.

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800 comments
1 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 9:46:37pm

"not considered mainstream" where? the paul household?

2 Michael Orion Powell  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 9:48:32pm

There is a dark fungus of racism to the right-wing. Not all are racists, but it's not hard to find this vileness.

3 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 9:48:40pm

Repost:

More on Jeff Sessions (R-AL):

At Sessions' confirmation hearings before the Senate Judiciary Committee, four Department of Justice lawyers who had worked with Sessions testified that he had made several racist statements. One of those lawyers, J. Gerald Hebert, testified that Sessions had referred to the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) and the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) as "un-American" and "Communist-inspired" because they "forced civil rights down the throats of people." Hebert said that Sessions had a tendency to "pop off" on such topics frequently and had once called a White civil rights lawyer who dealt with Voting Rights suits a "disgrace to his race."

Thomas Figures, a Black Assistant U.S. Attorney, testified that Sessions said he thought the Klan was "OK until I found out they smoked pot." Figures also testified that, on one occasion, when the U.S. Department of Justice Civil Rights Division sent the office instructions to investigate a case that Sessions had tried to close, Figures and Sessions "had a very spirited discussion regarding how the Hodge case should then be handled; in the course of that argument, Mr. Sessions threw the file on a table and remarked, 'I wish I could decline on all of them,'" by which Figures said Sessions meant civil rights cases generally. After becoming Ranking Member of the Judiciary Committee, Sessions was asked in an interview about his civil rights record as a U.S Attorney. He denied that he had not sufficiently pursued civil rights cases, saying that "when I was [a U.S. Attorney], I signed 10 pleadings attacking segregation or the remnants of segregation, where we as part of the Department of Justice, we sought desegregation remedies."

Figures also said that Sessions had called him "Boy." He also testified that "Mr. Sessions admonished me to 'be careful what you say to White folks.'"

CONTINUES

4 Lidane  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 9:49:06pm

*sigh*

I always knew the first minority President would cause some people to completely flip their shit, but seriously -- just how low is the GOP willing to slide in order to kiss up to those folks? This is just beyond sickening now.

5 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 9:49:52pm

The GOP is now the most efficient machine ever conceived to produce independent voters.


Congratulations!

6 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 9:52:21pm

I'm going to sign off for the night. Sleep well, all.

7 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 9:52:49pm

re: #4 Lidane

*sigh*

I always knew the first minority President would cause some people to completely flip their shit, but seriously -- just how low is the GOP willing to slide in order to kiss up to those folks? This is just beyond sickening now.

Remember In November

8 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 9:53:31pm

I repeat:

Despite it being an old one, I just don't get the anti-elitist meme that some buy into, especially when it comes from fans of Rand's writing/ideology.

9 Varek Raith  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 9:55:24pm

re: #8 Slumbering Behemoth

I repeat:

Despite it being an old one, I just don't get the anti-elitist meme that some buy into, especially when it comes from fans of Rand's writing/ideology.

*Adjusts monocle*
Hmmm, quite.
*Goes back to Ivory Tower*

10 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 9:56:35pm

re: #9 Varek Raith

Izzat you, Buzz Killington?

11 Varek Raith  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 9:58:59pm

re: #10 Slumbering Behemoth

Izzat you, Buzz Killington?

12 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:00:37pm

So according to Jon Kyl admiring Thurgood Marshall should be considered outside of the mainstream if not an extremist view.

Ms. Kagan identified Thurgood Marshall as another of her legal heroes. Justice Marshall is a historic figure in many respects, and it is not surprising that as one of his clerks she held him in the highest regard. Justice Marshall's judicial philosophy, however, is not what I would consider to be mainstream.

As he once explained, you do what you think is right and let the law catch up. He might be the epitome of a results-oriented judge. And, again, Ms. Kagan appears to enthusiastically embrace Justice Marshall's judicial philosophy, calling it, among other things, 'a thing of glory.' "

[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

13 The Left  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:01:29pm

They aren't even hiding it any more.

Repost. Jeff Sessions.

14 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:02:52pm

So what do you think happened? The Judiciary committee met, went through all the emails and papers released and decided, yeah, let's all go after her admiration of Thurgood Marshall! What lame ass idiots.

15 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:03:09pm

re: #3 Gus 802

wtf why is the republican party allowed to exist

16 Kronocide  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:04:32pm

WTF is going on?

17 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:06:46pm

re: #15 SpaceJesus

wtf why is the republican party allowed to exist

They've gone psycho. Wasn't Joe Barton opening his big mouth last week about BP or was that the week before? Now we have Jeff Sessions and Jon Kyl. It's like everybody's from the Duke's of Hazard only without the personality or decency.

18 The Left  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:06:59pm

re: #16 BigPapa

WTF is going on?

The GOP has decided to portray Thurgood Marshall, SCOTUS justice, civil rights icon, and fundamentally involved in dismantling Jim Crow, as unamerican, radical, and activist.

Thats just for starters. Refill your drink!

19 Lidane  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:07:46pm

re: #15 SpaceJesus

wtf why is the republican party allowed to exist

Because a one party system would suck even more.

Honestly, the GOP needs to find its spine and kick all the socons, religious nuts, and racists out of the party. Let them go to the Constitution Party where they belong, or something. It's ridiculous and offensive that a major political party is still flirting with this racist bullshit in the 21st Century.

20 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:08:28pm

re: #18 iceweasel

The GOP has decided to portray Thurgood Marshall, SCOTUS justice, civil rights icon, and fundamentally involved in dismantling Jim Crow, as unamerican, radical, and activist.

Thats just for starters. Refill your drink!

Then there was Rand Paul (R) saying it's OK for private business to discriminate against blacks or any other minority.

21 webevintage  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:10:31pm

re: #18 iceweasel

The GOP has decided to portray Thurgood Marshall, SCOTUS justice, civil rights icon, and fundamentally involved in dismantling Jim Crow, as unamerican, radical, and activist.

If only the Feds had just not involved themselves.
Jim Crow would have gone away on its own.
Our Negros had no problem with Jim Crow.
Whites and blacks got along in the South until those Yankees came down and meddled with things.
/

Did I forget anything?

22 Aye Pod  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:10:40pm

re: #3 Gus 802

Sessions said he thought the Klan was "OK until I found out they smoked pot

"Dang librhul KKK!" Jesus sheep-worrying christ.

23 Kronocide  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:12:09pm

re: #18 iceweasel

The GOP has decided to portray Thurgood Marshall, SCOTUS justice, civil rights icon, and fundamentally involved in dismantling Jim Crow, as unamerican, radical, and activist.

Thats just for starters. Refill your drink!

I'm getting my fine anejo out, I'm out of scotch.

I have a recurring urge to say wow and type WTF. I think we all new this was a process that started with Obama and some of us hope its a healthy bloodletting, but I fear it may not be. I hope the keep opening their mouths though, gotta get all that shit out.

24 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:12:10pm

re: #22 Jimmah

"Dang librhul KKK!" Jesus sheep-worrying christ.

"Damn. Back in the good old days all my Grand Dragon friends, they never smoked pot. I think I'm through with the Klan."

//

25 darthstar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:12:18pm

Let's just call this (non)winning strategy #328 for the GOP. So one of the principle people in getting Civil Rights legislation passed is now bad? Good luck with that minority vote, Republicans.

26 Firstinla  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:12:56pm

There is no leadership in the Republican party. The result is like a classroom where the teacher has walked out of classroom filled with 35 undisciplined children.

27 Aye Pod  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:13:09pm

re: #18 iceweasel

The GOP has decided to portray Thurgood Marshall, SCOTUS justice, civil rights icon, and fundamentally involved in dismantling Jim Crow, as unamerican, radical, and activist.

Thats just for starters. Refill your drink!

This crap just has to backfire massively. Surely.

28 darthstar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:13:16pm

re: #16 BigPapa

WTF is going on?

Welcome to post-racial America.

29 darthstar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:14:37pm

re: #27 Jimmah

This crap just has to backfire massively. Surely.

With Fox's help, by November, Thurgood Marshall will look just like...Hi---aw, fuck...I can't even do it with sarc.

30 Aye Pod  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:15:20pm

re: #24 Gus 802

"Damn. Back in the good old days all my Grand Dragon friends, they never smoked pot. I think I'm through with the Klan."

//

Seriously. LOL

31 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:16:23pm

re: #18 iceweasel

Well, considering the history of the world, and the state of things in the world in this very day and age, equal protection under the law for all people is pretty radical.

3 a : marked by a considerable departure from the usual or traditional

Also this:

4 slang : excellent, cool

32 Irenicum  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:16:43pm

As a few others have already said, the election of Barack Obama unleashed some very dark demons from our nation's history. I was proud to see our first black President, but knew from the get go that this was going to elicit a very bad counter reaction. This latest illustration is but one more example. It sickens me to no end.

33 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:16:52pm

re: #31 Slumbering Behemoth

You're so unhip you're cool, daddy-o.

34 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:16:57pm

re: #25 darthstar

Let's just call this (non)winning strategy #328 for the GOP. So one of the principle people in getting Civil Rights legislation passed is now bad? Good luck with that minority vote, Republicans.

Yeah. The new winning strategy of Sharron "There's Fluoride in the Water!" Angle. But you know many of them might still win which is the scary part. Scary because Senators like Kyl and Sessions are almost mainstream right wingers. We're now set to see some rather extremist right wingers win office come November and people will think it's swell as long as they promise them a tax cut.

35 Kronocide  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:17:09pm

Wasn't Thurgood Marshall from Kenya?

(I've had a good two fingers of sarc/)

36 Varek Raith  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:17:21pm

re: #33 Obdicut

You're so unhip you're cool, daddy-o.

He's all that and a bag of celery!

37 The Left  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:18:32pm

re: #21 webevintage

If only the Feds had just not involved themselves.
Jim Crow would have gone away on its own.
Our Negros had no problem with Jim Crow.
Whites and blacks got along in the South until those Yankees came down and meddled with things.
/

Did I forget anything?

Yeah, down with the 14th amendment.
While they're at it they can work on the 13th and the 15th too.

Suggesting that Obama should have only 3/5ths of a veto is about all that's left.

38 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:19:31pm

re: #32 Irenicum

Mississippi Burning is an inaccurate film, but the small speech Hackman gives about his daddy's racism is excellent.

The attraction of looking down on groups of people is tragically huge for many, and many give into it. I've certainly been guilty of it in the past, and it's hard to avoid such thinking even when you're consciously struggling with it.

Ever easier when intelligent racists provide smooth-sounding rationales for you to follow along. These people attacking Marshall are not dimwits. They are canny at the very least, and many of them are extremely smart. These are the fountainheads of racism.

39 ReamWorks SKG  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:19:51pm

2/3rds of Americans can't name one Supreme Court justice:

[Link: www.prnewswire.com...]

40 The Left  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:19:58pm

re: #31 Slumbering Behemoth

Well, considering the history of the world, and the state of things in the world in this very day and age, equal protection under the law for all people is pretty radical.

Of course, but this is the kind of 'radicalism' that founded our country and our first amendment. I can't keep track of whether they love the founding documents and fathers or hate them. Neither can they.

41 Irenicum  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:20:22pm

Welcome to the "strict constructionist" wing. They would bring us back to the 3/5's ruling if they could.

42 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:20:58pm

re: #33 Obdicut

I know, I'm totally L7.

43 Kronocide  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:22:13pm

re: #32 Irenicum

As a few others have already said, the election of Barack Obama unleashed some very dark demons from our nation's history. I was proud to see our first black President, but knew from the get go that this was going to elicit a very bad counter reaction. This latest illustration is but one more example. It sickens me to no end.

I take the silver lining long view. Obama's election created the environment to elicit release of the underlying racism that has been there all along. This is necessary to get to a post racial America, which may take another decade or generation.

Accuse me of wearing rose colored glasses, sure.

44 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:23:12pm

Night all. Damn these GOP losers. Justice Marshall's son is in the audience too.

45 Irenicum  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:23:34pm

re: #43 BigPapa

I hope you're right. I desperately do.

46 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:24:34pm

re: #37 iceweasel

Yeah, down with the 14th amendment.
While they're at it they can work on the 13th and the 15th too.

Suggesting that Obama should have only 3/5ths of a veto is about all that's left.

I don't know. It almost sounds like they want just one judge since they want everybody to think the same. Here's how it really works.

President wins. President gets to nominate a judge. If the president is a conservative he or she will more than likely nominate a conservative judge. If the president is a liberal he or she will more than likely nominate a liberal judge. And I might add everything in between.

Obama won so he gets to nominate who he and his team sees fit. Whoever wins the next election will have his or her chance. It's that simple.

47 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:25:47pm

re: #40 iceweasel

Of course, but this is the kind of 'radicalism' that founded our country and our first amendment. I can't keep track of whether they love the founding documents and fathers or hate them. Neither can they.

It's simple to figure once you understand one thing: they hate democrats, whereas I merely disagree with them on some things.

If Obama were a republican we would not be hearing as much insanity from the GOP as we are now.

48 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:26:42pm

They have to get used to this because after Obama wins in 2012 because the GOP will nominate Sarah Palin that means he will be president for 8 years. Same like when Bush was president for 8 years.

49 Aye Pod  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:27:17pm

re: #40 iceweasel

Of course, but this is the kind of 'radicalism' that founded our country and our first amendment. I can't keep track of whether they love the founding documents and fathers or hate them. Neither can they.

One day they will freak out completely and produce this :

Image: Cloneof1789.jpg

50 The Left  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:27:26pm

re: #43 BigPapa

I take the silver lining long view. Obama's election created the environment to elicit release of the underlying racism that has been there all along. This is necessary to get to a post racial America, which may take another decade or generation.

Accuse me of wearing rose colored glasses, sure.

I can agree with that. I knew we'd see an explosion of ugly, but even I didn't think it would be this much or go on this long.
I tell myself the election of the first black POTUS means we're lancing the boil of racism. All the poisons that lurk in the mud are hatching out.
/i claudius ref.

51 Nimed  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:27:36pm

Thurgood Marshall, Joe McCarthy, FDR, Lincoln, Lucy. Everything you thought you knew about them is wrong.

52 Irenicum  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:27:38pm

Is it really that difficult to see equality before the law as an essentially American principle? What century are these people living in?

53 darthstar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:28:51pm

re: #48 Gus 802

They have to get used to this because after Obama wins in 2012 because the GOP will nominate Sarah Palin that means he will be president for 8 years. Same like when Bush was president for 8 years, only competent.


ftfy

54 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:28:58pm

OK.

Just wanna say.

Listen to three things. (Not that long, any of 'em.)

One from Iran = Persia (former empire). One from the US (present empire). And one from Portugal (former empire).

And now tell me how little we have in common.

55 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:29:20pm

re: #53 darthstar

ftfy

:)

56 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:31:46pm

re: #32 Irenicum

As a few others have already said, the election of Barack Obama unleashed some very dark demons from our nation's history. I was proud to see our first black President, but knew from the get go that this was going to elicit a very bad counter reaction. This latest illustration is but one more example. It sickens me to no end.

The demons needed to be exposed to the light, and being exposed they are. That's the positive side of this ugliness.We've got names and faces to go with the rhetoric.

57 Irenicum  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:32:38pm

re: #50 iceweasel

I worry that the bad crazy has metastasized beyond the fringe into the mainstream, warping our political landscape in such a way as I haven't seen in my lifetime. It scares me.

58 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:33:33pm

They launch the missiles downstairs yet? /

59 ReamWorks SKG  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:34:55pm

re: #57 Irenicum

Is it any worse than the "9/11 was an inside job" folks we had during the last administration? (I don't know the answer. I wonder myself...)

60 Irenicum  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:35:06pm

re: #56 eclectic infidel

I agree totally. I just worry that it will go beyond insane rhetoric to insane action.

61 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:35:41pm

re: #57 Irenicum

I listened to a lot of right-wing radio back during part of Clinton's admin. It's really not much different now, with the exception of the added layer of race.

And the R-W pundits did pimp some of Alex Jones's stuff back then, just not as overtly as they are doing now.

62 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:35:47pm

re: #59 reuven

Much worse.

In case you didn't notice, these are elected GOP officials doing this nonsense, not bloggers.

63 Irenicum  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:36:21pm

re: #59 reuven

I do believe it is worse, in that we're seeing not just bizarre conspiracy theories, but calls for violent insurrection.

64 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:36:24pm

re: #2 orionxp

There is a dark fungus of racism to the right-wing. Not all are racists, but it's not hard to find this vileness.

It's like athlete's foot. It's not that all conservatives have the fungus, it's just that once a few guys have it, and WON'T use the cream, and keep taking showers in the gym shower, it's really hard for people not to pick it up.

65 The Left  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:37:09pm

re: #58 Gus 802

They launch the missiles downstairs yet? /

Nah. Mission control is locked on. Deterrence is ongoing. :)

66 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:37:23pm

re: #64 SanFranciscoZionist

That is one of your more interesting analogies.

67 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:37:34pm

re: #63 Irenicum

I do believe it is worse, in that we're seeing not just bizarre conspiracy theories, but calls for violent insurrection.

Really? I think there are plenty of bizarre conspiracy theories. Many of them are unique. Some are large and some are small. They almost arrive daily.

68 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:38:03pm

re: #21 webevintage

If only the Feds had just not involved themselves.
Jim Crow would have gone away on its own.
Our Negros had no problem with Jim Crow.
Whites and blacks got along in the South until those Yankees came down and meddled with things.
/

Did I forget anything?

It's those Northern liberals who are the real racists. Why, I was in a bar in South Boston one time...

//

69 Irenicum  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:38:15pm

re: #64 SanFranciscoZionist

That's a great analogy.

70 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:39:03pm

re: #22 Jimmah

"Dang librhul KKK!" Jesus sheep-worrying christ.

One of my father's cousins got kicked out of the California Conservation Corps for smoking pot.

I don't know what this illustrates about either the CCC or the KKK.

71 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:39:07pm

re: #64 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't use the same shower facilities as those guys, and I am such an elitist that I refuse to acknowledge them as being truly conservative.

72 Kronocide  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:39:13pm

re: #64 SanFranciscoZionist

nice gym shower reference. I got it! LOL

73 darthstar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:39:13pm

Honestly, the best thing that can happen to the GOP is that Kagan is confirmed quickly and quietly. Their desperation for some kind of attacking point has made them abandon all reason.

74 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:39:56pm

re: #65 iceweasel

Nah. Mission control is locked on. Deterrence is ongoing. :)

Détente? I know whenever that topic comes up the some folks like to talk about nothing but military options. Sometimes it goes from one specific target to WWIII.

75 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:40:56pm

re: #48 Gus 802

They have to get used to this because after Obama wins in 2012 because the GOP will nominate Sarah Palin that means he will be president for 8 years. Same like when Bush was president for 8 years.

I keep warning all my Republican friends: it feels longer.

76 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:40:58pm

re: #73 darthstar

SOP. No team wants to let the other team get an easy ride in appointments.

77 Irenicum  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:42:29pm

re: #67 Gus 802

There are plenty of bizarre conspiracy theories. Believe me you that's of particular interest to me. And they do arrive on a daily basis. My concern is with those who take a particular theory and use it as ammo for a violent answer to whatever problem they see afoot.

78 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:43:58pm

re: #71 Slumbering Behemoth

I don't use the same shower facilities as those guys, and I am such an elitist that I refuse to acknowledge them as being truly conservative.

Your feet are probably pristine then.

79 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:44:44pm

re: #78 SanFranciscoZionist

[Insert Fetish Joke Here]

80 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:45:18pm

re: #77 Irenicum

There are plenty of bizarre conspiracy theories. Believe me you that's of particular interest to me. And they do arrive on a daily basis. My concern is with those who take a particular theory and use it as ammo for a violent answer to whatever problem they see afoot.

I'm a more optimistic regarding widespread violence from the AR15 pantloads. If anything I see a possible repeat of something like Waco or at worst OKC. Hard to tell but the reference to an armed insurrection is a daily event.

81 aurelius  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:46:20pm

obviously racist.

as Charles says, pure and simple.

It frankly doesn't matter what Marshall's opinions and decisions were. Right, middle, left of center. in mainstream or out.

Bottom line, it should not be allowed to say that his opinions were outside the mainstream.

that's racism, kiddies.

82 Irenicum  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:47:40pm

re: #81 aurelius

But, but, but, he was for civil rights. Isn't that proof enough that he was a commie pinko?
///

83 aurelius  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:48:16pm

re: #82 Irenicum

But, but, but, he was for civil rights. Isn't that proof enough that he was a commie pinko?
///

QED!

84 Irenicum  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:48:28pm

re: #81 aurelius

And I'll bet he was for flouridating water too!

85 aurelius  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:49:13pm

re: #84 Irenicum

And I'll bet he was for flouridating water too!

LOL.

BTW love your image.

86 Nimed  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:50:06pm

re: #64 SanFranciscoZionist

It's like athlete's foot. It's not that all conservatives have the fungus, it's just that once a few guys have it, and WON'T use the cream, and keep taking showers in the gym shower, it's really hard for people not to pick it up.

LOL

Good one! Crabs and a number of other venereal diseases would be equally suited to illustrate the point. Oddly, by picking athlete's foot you have taken the high road on this one. As always, SanFranZ, you're one classy lady. :)

87 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:51:59pm

Every day, the GOP just gift-wraps another parcel of crazy

88 Irenicum  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:52:27pm

re: #85 aurelius

Thanks. My icon is based on a great Constantin Brancusi sculpture called The Kiss. He's my favorite artist.

89 aurelius  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:53:54pm

i'd seen it long ago and forgotten about it.

Really says it all....


ok gotta go kiss someone now...


;)

re: #88 Irenicum

Thanks. My icon is based on a great Constantin Brancusi sculpture called The Kiss. He's my favorite artist.

90 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:54:52pm

This just in, Harriet Tubman's views are outside the mainstream

91 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:56:21pm

re: #50 iceweasel

I can agree with that. I knew we'd see an explosion of ugly, but even I didn't think it would be this much or go on this long.
I tell myself the election of the first black POTUS means we're lancing the boil of racism. All the poisons that lurk in the mud are hatching out.
/i claudius ref.


and we STILL got people who say with a straight face that racism is over in America!

92 Irenicum  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:56:50pm

This also just in: 666b, the apartment of the beast.

93 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:56:58pm

re: #54 Cato the Elder

By the way, if God spares me and I live to write my magnum opus about matches (the fiery kind, not the sex hookups, and yes, I know someone has already tried, but he did it no justice) my next work shall be on string theory.

How stringed instruments changed the world. Bowed, plucked, hammered, wrought into a machine.

Think about it: sitar, guitar, banjo, violoncello, fortepiano, dobro, fiddle, oud.

What came after the Pan pipe?

A string.

What holds us together?

A string.

Want proof?

Listen:

It's always October.

94 aurelius  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:57:15pm

re: #90 WindUpBird

This just in, Harriet Tubman's views are outside the mainstream

exactly!.. .makes my point.

the truth is no defense, wingnuts.

Even if Harriet Tubman's views were outside the mainstream.. as I'm sure they were... it's racist to say it.

Now STFU and go home and cook up a mess of crawdads and raccoon meat.

95 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:57:25pm

re: #59 reuven

Is it any worse than the "9/11 was an inside job" folks we had during the last administration? (I don't know the answer. I wonder myself...)

Find me senators and congressmen who said that. ;-)

96 darthstar  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:58:01pm

re: #93 Cato the Elder

The piano's also a stringed instrument.

97 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:58:19pm

re: #19 Lidane

Because a one party system would suck even more.

Honestly, the GOP needs to find its spine and kick all the socons, religious nuts, and racists out of the party. Let them go to the Constitution Party where they belong, or something. It's ridiculous and offensive that a major political party is still flirting with this racist bullshit in the 21st Century.

The answer is they never stopped.

98 Irenicum  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 10:59:07pm

re: #91 WindUpBird

I get so tired of hearing that utter nonsense. To every person who says "get over it" I say "it" ain't over.

99 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:01:02pm

re: #98 Irenicum

I get so tired of hearing that utter nonsense. To every person who says "get over it" I say "it" ain't over.

In a grim gallows sort of way, I can't wait to see how crazy 2012 will get with this. It's like an operating cutaway of a car engine at a science fair. It's like by electing Obama we sliced America in half to watch the internal racist workings.

100 The Left  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:02:55pm

Come to think of it, Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Lucrecia Mott had some 'unstandard' views.

101 The Left  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:03:58pm

re: #92 Irenicum

This also just in: 666b, the apartment of the beast.

Heh. Saw something like that on twitter: 666A and 666B: tenants of the Beast.

102 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:05:31pm

re: #94 aurelius

Even if Harriet Tubman's views were outside the mainstream.. as I'm sure they were... it's racist to say it.

Minor Quibble: If such were true, then stating such truth is not by itself racist. Now, if you use such a statement of truth in an effort to illustrate why you believe she was wrong in her views, and wrong for doing what she did, then that certainly could be considered racist.

103 The Left  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:05:52pm

re: #87 WindUpBird

Every day, the GOP just gift-wraps another parcel of crazy

It's not even giftwrapped. We're way beyond that point. More like fishwrapped.

104 Irenicum  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:06:00pm

re: #99 WindUpBird

Indeed. It's like a deep seated cancer has been exposed to the light of day with this past election. It did need to be exposed, certainly, but I knew that it would bring out some bad mojo. I just hope it doesn't become what I worry it might.

105 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:06:25pm

re: #100 iceweasel

Come to think of it, Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Lucrecia Mott had some 'unstandard' views.

"Mr. Smith, is it true that you were an admirer of the activist president, Abraham Lincoln?"

106 KingKenrod  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:07:20pm

From the article:

The lack of a coherent attack on the nominee became apparent when Cornyn began his opening statement with a quotation that he said he received in an e-mail: "Liberty is not a cruise ship full of pampered passengers. Liberty is a man of war, and we're all the crew."

"I don't know why I thought of that," Cornyn told the perplexed audience.

guffaw

107 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:07:37pm

Clarence Darrow was teh activist!!11ty

108 Irenicum  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:07:48pm

re: #105 Gus 802

Hey, at the CPAC convention that was an active question.

109 The Left  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:08:02pm

re: #105 Gus 802

"Mr. Smith, is it true that you were an admirer of the activist president, Abraham Lincoln?"

Are you now or have you ever been a Republican?
/

110 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:09:14pm

re: #109 iceweasel

Are you now or have you ever been a Republican?
/

Do you support child labor laws? Was it not unions and Communists that brought us many of the labor laws we enjoy today?

Are you, or are you not a member of the Communist party?!

111 Irenicum  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:09:39pm

re: #93 Cato the Elder

That was a great audio btw Cato. I love traditional music.

112 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:09:55pm

Civil rights - teach the controversy.

113 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:12:09pm

Citizens should not seek civil or human rights because they will find freedom, salvation, and eternal joy in the afterlife.

//

114 aurelius  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:13:32pm

true.. although Marshall was a Justice for a long time and expressed many views in his written opinions.... he is basically (like Tubman) synonymous in the popular mind with one thing-- in his case, racial equality mandated by the federal government.

I think Charles was saying-- even though Marshall's many other views may have been outside the American mainstream-- it is racist to say that because to the average American, "Thurgood Marshall" is synonymous with one thing.. and to imply that one thing is outside the mainstream is exceedingly problematic. Appearance of racism is basically racism.

re: #102 Slumbering Behemoth

Minor Quibble: If such were true, then stating such truth is not by itself racist. Now, if you use such a statement of truth in an effort to illustrate why you believe she was wrong in her views, and wrong for doing what she did, then that certainly could be considered racist.

115 The Left  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:15:02pm

re: #113 Gus 802

Citizens should not seek civil or human rights because they will find freedom, salvation, and eternal joy in the afterlife.

//

Paging Dr Nietzsche, Dr Nietzsche to the Geneology of Morals ward..STAT!

116 lostlakehiker  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:15:43pm

re: #48 Gus 802

They have to get used to this because after Obama wins in 2012 because the GOP will nominate Sarah Palin that means he will be president for 8 years. Same like when Bush was president for 8 years.

The GOP will not nominate Palin. Take it to the bank.

Obama can win almost effortlessly, but there is the possibility that he will manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. It's his economy, his war, his Gulf, his medical reconfiguration, his Iran nuclear crisis, everything. There is a limit to the number of failures any president can explain away. Something, somewhere, has to actually go right.

117 Irenicum  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:15:50pm

re: #113 Gus 802

Sadly, that was the standard line from so many fundamentalists in generations past. Their extreme separatism left them unable to address anything that had to deal with real life.

118 The Left  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:16:11pm

re: #113 Gus 802

Citizens should not seek civil or human rights because they will find freedom, salvation, and eternal joy in the afterlife.

//

Heh. Talk about a 'slave morality'.

119 SteveMcG  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:16:39pm

You know what this world needs: MORE Republicans! Normal, er, mainstream Republicans are just going to leave the party. The worst result is they eschew the primaries, leading to some wacky nominations, but in November they can't bring themselves to vote for Democrats. And as we have seen before, a vote for a third party candidate is a wasted vote. So what we have to do is get everybody to register Republican and drown out the wingnuts in the spring.

PS I believe the only mechanism by which Sarah Palin would run for President would be to jump into the race late, perhaps sensing an underwhelming front runner. She would get chewed up real good in the primary debates, which she won't be able to dodge. I also think she would struggle to get big institutional money. Besides, she's got a beautiful gig going, why ruin it?

120 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:17:37pm

re: #96 darthstar

The piano's also a stringed instrument.

I mentioned that.

"Wrought into a machine."

And by the way, anyone who fails immediately to see the direct relation between Farsi "khod" and English "god" is hereby summarily, peremptorily, utterly, permanently, and without appeal ejected, banned, cast out, excommunicated and removed from the League of Linguistic Gentlemen.

121 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:18:05pm

re: #117 Irenicum

re: #118 iceweasel

Yep. That mentality was what held million in chains both literally and figuratively for 1000s of years. It sill occurs within the USA to a certain extent and is even stronger in more primitive cultures.

122 Bagua  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:18:29pm

re: #116 lostlakehiker

The GOP will not nominate Palin. Take it to the bank.

Obama can win almost effortlessly, but there is the possibility that he will manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. It's his economy, his war, his Gulf, his medical reconfiguration, his Iran nuclear crisis, everything. There is a limit to the number of failures any president can explain away. Something, somewhere, has to actually go right.

It really depends on what happens with the economy in the run up to 2012. I expect the drilling moratorium will cause an increase in the oil price, along with increasing unemployment. If this proves correct, mickey mouse could win against Obama and win.

123 webevintage  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:18:29pm

re: #119 SteveMcG

Besides, she's got a beautiful gig going, why ruin it?

I guess it depends what Sarah and Todd (he would be the first dude) really want.
Lots o' cash or lots o' power.....

124 Irenicum  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:18:35pm

re: #120 Cato the Elder

Oh Cato, you crap me up. I'm so glad you're here.

125 The Left  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:19:41pm

re: #116 lostlakehiker

The GOP will not nominate Palin. Take it to the bank.

I hope you're right about that. At this point I put nothing past them. Frankly I still can't believe she was even nominated for veep.

126 Irenicum  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:20:13pm

re: #124 Irenicum

Holy cow, I can't believe I just wrote that. Obviously I meant crack me up. Oy to the nth degree!

127 SteveMcG  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:21:04pm

re: #125 iceweasel

That's the beaty of the VP nomination process, there's no confirmation. The candidate selects, and that's that.

128 The Left  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:21:41pm

re: #121 Gus 802

re: #118 iceweasel

Yep. That mentality was what held million in chains both literally and figuratively for 1000s of years. It sill occurs within the USA to a certain extent and is even stronger in more primitive cultures.

Which is why SB was perfectly right to point out that Marshall and the whole principle of all people being equal really is a radical notion.

Too bad the GOP thinks it's 'extremist'.

129 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:22:03pm

re: #124 Irenicum

Oh Cato, you crap me up. I'm so glad you're here.

Just do me a favor, and if you haven't already, listen to the three songs above.

They will change your life forever.

130 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:24:13pm

re: #106 KingKenrod

From the article:

guffaw

Cornyn then screamed, dropped his pipe, and pointed in horror as a gigantic inflatable pig floated into the rotunda

131 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:24:17pm

re: #116 lostlakehiker

The GOP will not nominate Palin. Take it to the bank.

Obama can win almost effortlessly, but there is the possibility that he will manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. It's his economy, his war, his Gulf, his medical reconfiguration, his Iran nuclear crisis, everything. There is a limit to the number of failures any president can explain away. Something, somewhere, has to actually go right.

Well, to those failure I would say:

1. The economy is in current state of recovery and was said to start a true recovery in 2011.
2. The war is still ongoing.
3. The "medical reconfiguration" has yet to come into full effect so we really don't know the benefits yet.
4. The Iran nuclear crisis is currently ongoing and they now face stronger sanctions.
5. The Gulf Oils spill was BPs fault but that being said the projected stoppage is sometimes around August.

Most of this is ongoing. Americans will only care about one thing and that's the economy.

132 The Left  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:26:26pm

re: #90 WindUpBird

This just in, Harriet Tubman's views are outside the mainstream

UPDATE: FREDERICK DOUGLASS--COMMUNITY ORGANISER WITH TIES TO ACORN!

DEVELOPING...

133 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:26:49pm

Oh, this is global economy now. I think people fail to see that. It's a lot more difficult to recover from the economic crash that took place in 2008. Remember that year. 2008.

134 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:26:53pm

re: #113 Gus 802

Citizens should not seek civil or human rights because they will find freedom, salvation, and eternal joy in the afterlife.

//

You will eat, bye and bye,
In that glorious land above the sky;
Work and pray, live on hay,
You'll get pie in the sky when you die.

135 lostlakehiker  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:27:11pm

re: #122 Bagua

It really depends on what happens with the economy in the run up to 2012. I expect the drilling moratorium will cause an increase in the oil price, along with increasing unemployment. If this proves correct, mickey mouse could win against Obama and win.

Well, the Republicans seem set on testing that scenario. :-(

136 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:27:31pm

re: #134 SanFranciscoZionist

You will eat, bye and bye,
In that glorious land above the sky;
Work and pray, live on hay,
You'll get pie in the sky when you die.

Where's that from?

137 Bagua  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:27:32pm

re: #131 Gus 802

Well, to those failure I would say:

1. The economy is in current state of recovery and was said to start a true recovery in 2011.
2. The war is still ongoing.
3. The "medical reconfiguration" has yet to come into full effect so we really don't know the benefits yet.
4. The Iran nuclear crisis is currently ongoing and they now face stronger sanctions.
5. The Gulf Oils spill was BPs fault but that being said the projected stoppage is sometimes around August.

Most of this is ongoing. Americans will only care about one thing and that's the economy.

The moratorium on GOM DW drilling is Obama's decision. He owns that one. If it damages the economy it will unseat him.

138 Irenicum  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:29:06pm

re: #132 iceweasel

I have friends on twitter who are still bent out of shape about ACORN. It's amazing how conspiratorial minds work.

139 Bagua  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:29:17pm

re: #135 lostlakehiker

Well, the Republicans seem set on testing that scenario. :-(

Heh, I suppose you mean Minnie Mouse not Micky.

140 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:29:52pm

re: #137 Bagua

The moratorium on GOM DW drilling is Obama's decision. He owns that one. If it damages the economy it will unseat him.

Most Americans support strong environmental laws. That moratorium has been halted by that judge who sold his Exxon stock the day of his decision.

141 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:30:18pm

re: #136 Gus 802

Where's that from?

Joe Hill piece--a Wobbly Hymn.

I only know it as 'Pie in the Sky', but apparently it's really called "The Preacher and the Slave".

142 The Left  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:31:31pm

re: #138 Irenicum

I have friends on twitter who are still bent out of shape about ACORN. It's amazing how conspiratorial minds work.

There are folks here who are still bent out of shape about ACORN, sadly.

143 Bagua  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:33:11pm

re: #140 Gus 802

Most Americans support strong environmental laws. That moratorium has been halted by that judge who sold his Exxon stock the day of his decision.

I've said before that I think it was a brave decision by Obama. That because I expect it could result in his having only one term. Of course it is too early to predict if this will be a major issue in 2012. My hunch is that is will be.

144 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:33:23pm

re: #142 iceweasel

There are folks here who are still bent out of shape about ACORN, sadly.

Oh they think ACORN stole the election. I think it's 30 percent of Republicans that believe that.

145 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:35:22pm

re: #143 Bagua

I've said before that I think it was a brave decision by Obama. That because I expect it could result in his having only one term. Of course it is too early to predict if this will be a major issue in 2012. My hunch is that is will be.

Well the Palin thing was partly a joke. I think if Americans still have issues with Obama come 2012 they would look past those in order to keep that housewife soccer mom governor that quit woman out of the White House.

146 Irenicum  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:35:44pm

G'nite kids. It's been a fun thread. As always, see ya on the other side.

147 Bagua  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:38:07pm

re: #146 Irenicum

G'nite kids. It's been a fun thread. As always, see ya on the other side.

You just watch the conclusion of LOST?

148 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:39:14pm

Hot Air commenters are creepy!

Regarding Kagan:

"With a face like that, she has to have a chip on her shoulder (or on her hump) against the beautiful who people live their lives to the fullest because of the great personal liberties that our constitution protects."
149 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:39:34pm

Anyway, I don't want to do the 2012 election thing. It's far too early.

150 Bagua  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:39:36pm

re: #145 Gus 802

Well the Palin thing was partly a joke. I think if Americans still have issues with Obama come 2012 they would look past those in order to keep that housewife soccer mom governor that quit woman out of the White House.

You may be right on that one. Personally I don't really see Palin as a contender for the nomination. But who knows?

151 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:39:42pm

re: #142 iceweasel

There are folks here who are still bent out of shape about ACORN, sadly.

ACORN tourettes!

152 The Left  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:39:52pm

re: #144 Gus 802

Oh they think ACORN stole the election. I think it's 30 percent of Republicans that believe that.

I wonder how much of the anti-census violence and threats we've seen is also tied to Fear of a Barack Planet fear of ACORN.
Some of it certainly is the usual anti-gubbmint/anti-Obama sentiment, but some of it is probably tied to the fears whipped up over ACORN's (falsely stated) role in the census (the real one was VERY minor, wouldn't have involved the collection or collation of data, and they had to get the boot anyway).

153 Bagua  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:40:21pm

re: #149 Gus 802

Anyway, I don't want to do the 2012 election thing. It's far too early.

Yeah, we have November sneaking up on us fast enough as it is. What a riot that will be.

154 The Left  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:41:56pm

re: #149 Gus 802

Anyway, I don't want to do the 2012 election thing. It's far too early.

Yep. Agreed that it will all be about the economy, and that's all one can reasonably say at this point, I think. Too many variables, the economy being the major one.

155 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:42:34pm

re: #114 aurelius

Uh, what?

I don't really think that is what our host is saying, and stating a truth is not racist in itself. It's what kind a narrative you are using it in that makes the difference.


Harriet Tubman's views and actions were quite radical and outside the mainstream.

This is a truth that is not inherently racist. It's what one does with that statement which let's the mask slip. Example:

A) For this reason I believe Tubman should be honored for her courage in the face of adversity. She took extraordinary actions, at risk of life and limb, to secure the passage to freedom for escaped slaves.

B) For this reason I believe Tubman's views and actions should be denounced as lawless, and her advocates and supporters be pilloried.

This is the sort of thing I believe our host is attempting to illustrate. Not that stating a truth is by itself racist, but that using said truth as a vehicle to demonize someone by association (in this case Kagan with Marshall) is potentially racist.

156 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:42:42pm

re: #152 iceweasel

I wonder how much of the anti-census violence and threats we've seen is also tied to Fear of a Barack Planet fear of ACORN.
Some of it certainly is the usual anti-gubbmint/anti-Obama sentiment, but some of it is probably tied to the fears whipped up over ACORN's (falsely stated) role in the census (the real one was VERY minor, wouldn't have involved the collection or collation of data, and they had to get the boot anyway).

That was part of the scare tactics. Making it look like ACORN would be conducting the CENSUS. That and the whole anti-government lunacy. Even filling out the cards became an ordeal for many. Then they sent out a second card and people still flipped out.

157 Gus  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:44:07pm

re: #153 Bagua

Yeah, we have November sneaking up on us fast enough as it is. What a riot that will be.

It's already a riot. I propose that we make all Federal office term 4 years and have the elections occur on the same year as the presidential election. President, House and Senate. That way we can catch a break from the campaigning.

158 Bagua  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:46:33pm

re: #157 Gus 802

It's already a riot. I propose that we make all Federal office term 4 years and have the elections occur on the same year as the presidential election. President, House and Senate. That way we can catch a break from the campaigning.

That would be a welcome relief.

159 The Left  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:48:32pm

re: #155 Slumbering Behemoth

There's also two separate issues: persons and positions.
A hater can make racist statements about Tubman or Marshall that are personally racist-- racist with regard to them personally (grounded in their race)
A different hater (and racist) technique is to describe their positions as 'radical' (in the pejorative sense) and that is still a racist statement about the positions: racist because it describes being against Jim Crow and for Brown v Board of Ed, and being against slavery, as 'radical' (again, in the pejorative or condemnatory sense of radical).

The second kind of statement would still be a racist one even if Tubman and Marshall had been white.
Hope that makes sense.

160 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:49:43pm

re: #159 iceweasel

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was getting at.

161 tnguitarist  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:50:43pm

Good evening, all. How goes it?

162 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:52:02pm

re: #161 tnguitarist

Up, and just ever so slightly to the right.

163 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:52:05pm

re: #161 tnguitarist

Good evening, all. How goes it?

We're talking about string theory (see above).

164 The Left  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:52:06pm

re: #160 Slumbering Behemoth

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was getting at.

Sorry-- I wasn't disagreeing with you, just sort of expanding on the points you already made (more than once in this thread).

165 tnguitarist  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:54:42pm

re: #163 Cato the Elder

We're talking about string theory (see above).

Perfect time for my shameless plug

I'm almost finished.

166 Bagua  Mon, Jun 28, 2010 11:56:06pm

re: #165 tnguitarist

Perfect time for my shameless plug

I'm almost finished.

Beautiful.

167 tnguitarist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:00:56am
168 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:02:22am

Ey khoda, ey falak, ey tabee-at
Shaam'e taareek'e maara, sahar kon!

God, universe, nature
Make our dark evening into dawn!

Amen, amayn, ameen.

Sit, sit. So mote it be. Soit. So möge es sein. Fiat. Let it be so.

Good night, good morning, and good luck.

169 Bagua  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:02:42am

re: #167 tnguitarist

I love the natural wood grain. Must be a please to hold.

170 tnguitarist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:04:22am

re: #169 Bagua

I love the natural wood grain. Must be a please to hold.

It's my first try. I build furniture, so I couldn't bring myself to color it and hide the wood. Sugar maple top with walnut stripe; walnut back.

171 freetoken  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:04:50am

Gus, WND's top story is about the victimization of ... sit down for this one... Tim Adams!

Hawaii elections official victim of vicious smears

The former Honolulu elections official who alleges Barack Obama was "definitely" not born in Hawaii and that no long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate even exists for the president in the Aloha State now says he's the victim of a vicious smear campaign, threatening his position as an instructor at Western Kentucky University.

"Official" my ass.


"There have been attempts by various parties, some bloggers and others to attempt to discredit [my] claims, but none of them has held up to any scrutiny or rebuttal," Tim Adams, the former senior elections clerk in 2008 for the city and county of Honolulu, is now telling WND.

Tsk tsk, Gus, you've hurting his feelings.

172 Bagua  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:04:54am

re: #168 Cato the Elder

Did you get the guide I emailed you?

173 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:05:33am

re: #164 iceweasel

I didn't get the impression you were disagreeing with me, so s'all good.

Much like criminal proceedings, determining motive is highly important. I can call someone like Tubman a "radical outside of the mainstream", but it is how I choose to use that truth that defines my stance.

One could use the same phrase to describe Galileo, and it would certainly be true. What direction one takes with that truth is what defines their stance on the issue.

Re: Kagan's relation to Marshall. Gross misstep. Utterly stupid and short sighted. Doesn't anyone play chess anymore?

174 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:06:34am

re: #165 tnguitarist

re: #167 tnguitarist

Wait a damn minute. Are you making that yourself? From scratch?

175 tnguitarist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:07:51am

re: #174 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #167 tnguitarist

Wait a damn minute. Are you making that yourself? From scratch?

Complete scratch. I swear. I blogged the whole process, but it's on my FB page. I hand carved the neck. It took a minute.

176 AK-47%  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:10:24am

re: #116 lostlakehiker

The GOP will not nominate Palin. Take it to the bank.

She has abandoned seeking the nomination, she wants to make herself a "kingmaker", selling her influence over her loyal following of voters against platform and policy positions on the part of the candidates.

177 tnguitarist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:10:25am

re: #174 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #167 tnguitarist

Wait a damn minute. Are you making that yourself? From scratch?

It started as this.

178 Aye Pod  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:10:56am

Artists criticise BP's Tate Britain sponsorship

More than 170 creative artists have put their names to a letter attacking Tate Britain for accepting BP sponsorship.

Its publication came on the day of the Tate's summer party, which a group of activists picketed in protest at the oil spill in the US Gulf of Mexico.

The BP logo, the letter in The Guardian says, "represents a stain on the Tate's international reputation".

Playwright Caryl Churchill, cartoonist Martin Rowson and comedian Robert Newman are among the 171 signatories.

Others include artist John Keane and electronic musician Matthew Herbert, who appeared this weekend at the Glastonbury festival.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

179 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:11:32am

re: #175 tnguitarist

I'll reserve my "flat out impressed and in awe" moment for when I hear how it sounds.

Looks gorgeous, though. Very impressive. Mega updings.

180 tnguitarist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:12:58am

re: #179 Slumbering Behemoth

I'll reserve my "flat out impressed and in awe" moment for when I hear how it sounds.

Looks gorgeous, though. Very impressive. Mega updings.

Thank you. I'm putting on the finishing touches now. I'll put up some audio inside of a week. I'm very curious myself about the sound!

181 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:14:03am

re: #177 tnguitarist

It started as this.

I admire your skill. You are truly doing the devil's own work, sir, and doing it well. Please post an audio clip once you finish that baby and fire her up.

182 Aye Pod  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:14:03am

Mr Deity and the Void -

183 tnguitarist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:14:14am

It sucks to be a night owl. Everyone usually disappears by time I get here.

184 Gus  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:14:51am

Cripes. Did someone shoot the hamsters or something?

185 Bagua  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:15:25am

re: #177 tnguitarist

Magnificent.

186 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:15:44am
187 tnguitarist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:15:59am

re: #184 Gus 802

Cripes. Did someone shoot the hamsters or something?

I hear ya. I'm on my third Jack and Coke and ready to chat, dangit.

188 tnguitarist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:16:51am

re: #186 Tasmanian Devil

Some of us are nocturnal.

I'm a night owl and a morning person. Yeah, I don't sleep much.

189 Gus  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:17:19am

re: #187 tnguitarist

I hear ya. I'm on my third Jack and Coke and ready to chat, dangit.

I've had a few sips but my intertoobs just took a nose dive of sorts. Stupid ISP sucks sometimes. That wasn't always the case. Had two outages in the past few weeks.

190 Bagua  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:17:54am

re: #189 Gus 802

How long?

191 Gus  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:18:34am

re: #190 Bagua

How long?

One was about 3 hours. Another was for about 4 hours.

192 tnguitarist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:18:59am

re: #189 Gus 802

We just got fiber optic service here and it's been sweet.

193 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:19:07am

re: #172 Bagua

Did you get the guide I emailed you?

Yep. I'm tardy in thanking you.

Results upcoming soon. I can't wait to spread my perverse alternative utterly idiosyncratic musical choices around here.

194 Gus  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:19:57am

re: #192 tnguitarist

We just got fiber optic service here and it's been sweet.

Yeah, I have to figure something out. I'm paying almost 35 bucks for this dumb land line and paying another 40 for the DSL. I barely use the phone.

195 tnguitarist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:21:18am

re: #194 Gus 802

Yeah, I have to figure something out. I'm paying almost 35 bucks for this dumb land line and paying another 40 for the DSL. I barely use the phone.

We finally ditched our land line. No use for it. I hated DSL when I had it.

196 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:22:12am

re: #184 Gus 802

Cripes. Did someone shoot the hamsters or something?

Nah, they're just doin' the one thing we ain't. Bumpin' uglies.

How do you think this site just keeps getting better and better with it's functionalities? You buy the line that it's all Charles's hard work? Ha! It's breeding hamsters, man. Breeding hamsters all the way down.

197 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:22:21am

re: #175 tnguitarist

Complete scratch. I swear. I blogged the whole process, but it's on my FB page. I hand carved the neck. It took a minute.

Dude.

My master-crafted handmade guitar that I bought in 1986 in Germany for the equivalent of $200 has just been appraised for $7,500+.

Keep on buildin', and leave the results to your kids.

198 Bagua  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:22:28am

re: #191 Gus 802

One was about 3 hours. Another was for about 4 hours.

Yikes. Fire the bastards. I couldn't tolerate that.

Are you sure it was the telco that was out?

199 tnguitarist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:22:30am

Where is Cato and our conversation about stringed instruments?

200 Gus  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:22:43am

re: #195 tnguitarist

We finally ditched our land line. No use for it. I hated DSL when I had it.

My DSL can go up to about 3MB per sec. Usually about 2.2

201 tnguitarist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:23:31am

re: #197 Cato the Elder

Dude.

My master-crafted handmade guitar that I bought in 1986 in Germany for the equivalent of $200 has just been appraised for $7,500+.

Keep on buildin', and leave the results to your kids.

I've already started 3 more. They will be for sale. This is my first, so it's for me.

202 Gus  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:23:41am

re: #198 Bagua

Yikes. Fire the bastards. I couldn't tolerate that.

Are you sure it was the telco that was out?

It was the ISP. First time I called Manipur to find out what was up. Second time I got pissed off and took a nap.

203 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:24:36am

re: #27 Jimmah

This crap just has to backfire massively. Surely.

You might be surprised.

It's known here as the Barnum effect.

204 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:25:52am

re: #199 tnguitarist

Where is Cato and our conversation about stringed instruments?

Right here.

But I'm doing a kinda universal cultural thang here.

205 tnguitarist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:27:06am

re: #204 Cato the Elder

Right here.

But I'm doing a kinda universal cultural thang here.

I'll cover what I can. I play a few different instruments.

206 Bagua  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:27:36am

re: #202 Gus 802

It was the ISP. First time I called Manipur to find out what was up. Second time I got pissed off and took a nap.

I just ask because it is unusual to have a long outage like that. I had a lot of short interruptions with DSL until I had the speed dialed back to what the line could support, but no longer outages.

They often try to sell you more speed than your line attenuation and signal to noise ratio can handle.

But if they are out for hours then they suck.

207 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:28:50am

re: #165 tnguitarist

Perfect time for my shameless plug

I'm almost finished.

Hey, man. No way you can do a guitar neck in a minute.

It takes me longer than that to piss.

208 Bagua  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:29:04am

re: #201 tnguitarist

I've already started 3 more. They will be for sale. This is my first, so it's for me.

Blatantly you're not new to woodworking though.

209 Gus  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:29:15am

re: #206 Bagua

I just ask because it is unusual to have a long outage like that. I had a lot of short interruptions with DSL until I had the speed dialed back to what the line could support, but no longer outages.

They often try to sell you more speed than your line attenuation and signal to noise ratio can handle.

But if they are out for hours then they suck.

I've had them for almost 10 years now. These last two were within week. So it's that plus! You ready? Had an outage of about 2 days. Yeah, they probably suck. You know. The old Mindspring spinoff.

210 Bagua  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:29:40am

re: #192 tnguitarist

We just got fiber optic service here and it's been sweet.

I have that at work. Can't be beat.

211 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:31:46am

re: #173 Slumbering Behemoth


Much like criminal proceedings, determining motive is highly important. I can call someone like Tubman a "radical outside of the mainstream", but it is how I choose to use that truth that defines my stance.

One could use the same phrase to describe Galileo, and it would certainly be true. What direction one takes with that truth is what defines their stance on the issue.

Re: Kagan's relation to Marshall. Gross misstep. Utterly stupid and short sighted. Doesn't anyone play chess anymore?

Yeah, exactly, to all. there's a use of radical which is descriptive and contextual and not perjorative: radical for the time and place.
There's another which is condemnatory, and that's the one they're employing now in re Marshall. And that's what's objectionable.

212 Bagua  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:31:55am

re: #209 Gus 802

Can't you switch? That is atrocious.

213 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:31:57am

re: #207 Cato the Elder

Get your prostate checked. Just sayin'.
/imastinker

214 tnguitarist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:32:36am

re: #207 Cato the Elder

Hey, man. No way you can do a guitar neck in a minute.

It takes me longer than that to piss.

Actually, it took a while.

215 Gus  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:32:55am

re: #212 Bagua

Can't you switch? That is atrocious.

Not yet. Well, i could but it would be to sucky Comcast.

216 tnguitarist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:33:48am

re: #208 Bagua

Blatantly you're not new to woodworking though.

I've been playing guitar for 25 years and woodworking for about five. It was a natural progression.

217 Bagua  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:35:53am

re: #215 Gus 802

I bet Comcast has better up time.

218 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:36:25am

re: #183 tnguitarist

It sucks to be a night owl. Everyone usually disappears by time I get here.

I'm around, but I'm usually working :D

219 Gus  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:37:15am

re: #217 Bagua

I bet Comcast has better up time.

They might. So, now it's taking a bunch of time to load a page. I know they're fucking around even those their status page says all clear.

Ha, not only did it take a long time to load but it failed to load the BBC News page.

220 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:37:44am

I used to search for happiness
And I used to follow pleasure.
But I found a door behind my mind
And that's the greatest treasure.

For rulers like to lay down laws
And rebels like to break them.
And the poor priests like to walk in chains
And God likes to forsake them.

Copyright © the Sixties, Incredible String Band

221 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:38:23am

This mentioned yet? (Apologies if so, too much going on here right now)

US Supreme Court deals pedophilia blow for Vatican

The US Supreme Court declined Monday to hear an appeal by the Vatican in a landmark case that opens the way for priests in the United States to stand trial for pedophilia.

Allowing a federal appeals court ruling to stand, the decision means Vatican officials including theoretically Pope Benedict XVI could face questioning under oath related to a litany of child sex abuse cases.

The Supreme Court effectively confirmed the decision of an appellate court to lift the Vatican's immunity in the case of an alleged pedophile priest in the northwestern state of Oregon.

222 Gus  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:39:16am

Hey, try loading this...

news.bbc.co.uk

223 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:39:34am

G'night.

224 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:39:53am
225 tnguitarist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:40:23am

re: #222 Gus 802

Hey, try loading this...

news.bbc.co.uk

Worked fine for me.

226 Aye Pod  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:42:57am

Night folks :)

227 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:43:28am

re: #224 Tasmanian Devil

Um, some of us have had a beer or two and are not as smart as we were a few hours ago.

I won't comment on your post until I am feeling smart again.

I just found my corkscrew/bottle opener. Give me ten minutes to catch up and we can go back to douche jokes. :)

228 Bagua  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:43:57am

re: #222 Gus 802

Loads fine.

Ten Russian spies charged in the US

They likely have to drop your line speed to 1.5m for you to have a stable line.

229 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:44:56am

re: #221 iceweasel

'BOUT FUCKIN' TIME!

Sorry, this kind of immunity for this kind of crime based solely on what appears to be a deference to an established, foreign theocracy irritates me.

230 Gus  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:45:08am

re: #228 Bagua

Loads fine.

Ten Russian spies charged in the US

They likely have to drop your line speed to 1.5m for you to have a stable line.

Stalled. Then it loaded one of those funky pages with the Romans text.

231 Gus  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:45:43am

brb

232 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:47:37am

re: #226 Jimmah

Night folks :)


[Video]

Nite ma laddie. :)

an' fare thee weel awhile!

233 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:48:40am

re: #224 Tasmanian Devil

Heh. Some of us have had a beer or five and are still just as smart as when we woke from slumber this morning afternoon.

Not quite sure who makes out the better in this...

234 ryannon  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:48:51am

Dude, where's my Overnight Open Thread?

235 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:50:36am

Everyone should kill their landline.

Kill your TV too while you're at it.

236 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:52:06am
237 ryannon  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:53:25am

re: #236 Tasmanian Devil

We are doing OK, we have an overnight Open Thread going for us now. However ryannon is still not feeling the Overnight Buzz.

I need to take a quick douche and I'll be fine.

238 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:54:51am
239 tnguitarist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:56:34am

re: #238 Tasmanian Devil

NO!.

Everyone should have a landline. When the power goes out that is the ONLY way you have communication. (P.S. get a cheap $5 phone with a cord on it and plug it in somewhere, the fancy cordless phones don't work when the power is off)

Where we live, you can dial 911 from a land line even if it doesn't have service.

240 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:58:03am
241 Bagua  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:58:48am

re: #230 Gus 802

Stalled. Then it loaded one of those funky pages with the Romans text.

Yeah, line issues. You are probably too far from telco to support the speed they are selling you. Have them set it lower and see if that fixes it.

242 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 1:03:31am

Just because I think Jane Lynch is friggin' awesome.

243 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 1:05:21am

re: #238 Tasmanian Devil

NO!.

Everyone should have a landline. When the power goes out that is the ONLY way you have communication. (P.S. get a cheap $5 phone with a cord on it and plug it in somewhere, the fancy cordless phones don't work when the power is off)

Good point.
Your cell will still work in a blackout for as long as it has charge though won't it? Assuming the circuits aren't jammed. (which happens to landlines too in emergencies)

I don't see that as sufficient reason to be paying 40 bucks a month additional for a land line though. How often does that happen?
I was in nyc for the last blackout. I haven't had a landline in years now so didnt have one then. It wasn't really a problem.

244 ryannon  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 1:05:45am

I had the occasion to go out to the northern suburbs of Paris yesterday. I was totally amazed by the good vibes coming from the people I was dealing with. It was multi-cultural (black, white, brown and everything in between) and everyone was getting along just fine: you got the feeling that the majority of these people were perfectly decent individuals with no particular racial or religious ax to grind. The atmosphere was way more pleasant than in Paris, where people are perpetually tense and aggressive. Of course, there are pockets of high-crime out in the 'burbs, but I'm beginning to sense (as the residents out there have been saying for years) that the media milks it for all its worth and helps to create a vicious circle of self-fulfilling low expectations.

It was a real eye-opener, and I'm humbled by the experience.

245 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 1:06:39am

OK.

I gave you all a lot of music in different languages tonight.

This little song is ours, in English.

Listen. Don't forget. I won't.

And this goes out to all the masters.

246 tnguitarist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 1:07:12am

Good night. Gonna go fall asleep to my all-time favorite; Fletch.

247 ryannon  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 1:08:04am

re: #245 Cato the Elder

Cato, you silly old gun and knife totin' hippy, you.

248 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 1:10:33am

re: #245 Cato the Elder

Shit.

Copy-paste error.

This is the song I was aimin' for.

God bless Bob Dylan, a staunch supporter of Israel.

249 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 1:15:52am
250 ryannon  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 1:18:31am

re: #248 Cato the Elder

Well, since you brought it up:

[Link: www.trilulilu.ro...]

It's interesting to note that he wrote this when most people hadn't the faintest idea of the points he was making - and which we take for granted today. As usual, he was years ahead of the curve.

251 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 1:30:36am

re: #250 ryannon

Aye.

252 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 1:31:51am

re: #250 ryannon

Well, since you brought it up:

[Link: www.trilulilu.ro...]

It's interesting to note that he wrote this when most people hadn't the faintest idea of the points he was making - and which we take for granted today. As usual, he was years ahead of the curve.

That was about 1982!

253 ryannon  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 1:32:02am

re: #244 ryannon

ryannon replies to ryannon (ahem):

"The images detached from every aspect of life merge into a common stream in which the unity of that life can no longer be recovered. Fragmented views of reality regroup themselves into a new unity as a separate pseudoworld that can only be looked at. The specialization of images of the world evolves into a world of autonomized images where even the deceivers are deceived. The spectacle is a concrete inversion of life, an autonomous movement of the nonliving."

254 Boogberg  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 1:33:45am

Damn. Shoulda shorted the market yesterday.

255 ryannon  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 1:33:49am

re: #252 EdDantes

That was about 1982!

Yep. Impressive, no?

256 ryannon  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 1:37:23am

BBL

257 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 1:37:56am

Impressive, hell yeah! It went right by me back then and I had been a Israel supporter since '67. You can hear a lot just by listening (riffing on Yogi Berra).

258 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 1:40:33am

I own a bodhrán. If I thump it just right, it kills fascists within a 30-meter radius.

Everyone else willl take no harm.

The thumping is the thing.

Beware, Pam and Bob.

259 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 1:41:21am

re: #235 iceweasel

Everyone should kill their landline.

Kill your TV too while you're at it.

I can't kill my TV! What will I play video games on? :D

260 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 1:41:33am

Yargh, internet issues and getting cut off-- shoutout to Timmeh if he's still here, I'm getting bounced out of pages and made an incomplete post. If i cant get back in there I will and upding him and finish. (crosses fingers, hopes this will post)

hello all, not ignoring anyone, can't ding or have anything open...

261 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 1:46:18am

re: #260 iceweasel

If you can hear me, I updinged that post. It could have been written Roger Waters. :)

262 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 1:58:29am

Well, lest anyone forget:

Iranian music:

263 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 2:14:34am

re: #261 EdDantes

If you can hear me, I updinged that post. It could have been written Roger Waters. :)

I love the pages system and try to use it, but my internets is so messed up I can't have more than one tab on LGF open pretty much-- stuff starts going wonky and freezing.
This sucks as ideally i'd be in several places including threads and running spy too.
The other day I was elsewhere and using another computer, visiting LGF that way was like a whole new world.
Also, can't really ding or reply. Takes ages.

264 freetoken  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 2:18:05am

re: #263 iceweasel

Sorry to hear you are struggling... is it your ISP?

Oh, and you're doing a good job in the Pages! Keep it up.

265 AK-47%  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 2:18:17am

re: #248 Cato the Elder

"desks" rhymes with "masks".

Only Bobby can get away with a rhyme like that. If it don't fit, just get a bigger poetry hammer and bend that sucker into place.

My absolute fave of his was

"...he felt the heat of the night hit him like a freight/
train, rollin on through a simple twist of fate."

266 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 2:26:09am

re: #265 ralphieboy

From the same album one of my favorite phrases was:

"There’s a lone soldier on the cross, smoke pourin’ out of a boxcar door
You didn’t know it, you didn’t think it could be done, in the final end he won the war after losin’ every battle"

267 freetoken  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 2:26:39am

How about some Tango... from Imperial Japan!

Singer is Noriko Awaya

268 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 2:33:30am

re: #264 freetoken

Sorry to hear you are struggling... is it your ISP?

Oh, and you're doing a good job in the Pages! Keep it up.

Cheers. I think it's my computer. I have huge problems posting on LGF and playing any vid anywhere.
I'm extremely frustrated because I would be doing a much better job in the pages (but thanks anyway!) but I can't, because it's so difficult to post. (I can't open another tab to add the links I need, run searches, etc)

Example: Can anyone find the following link for me? Someone did two pages (i thought it was Thanos) on a witness the GOP was planning to call re: Kagan, the general who believed iraq was a religious crusade for us (they had to back off calling him)-- i want to add that link and info to the page i just did in re Perkins and the FRC and direct people to that for further reading. I can't open anything ot search anything though myself.

269 freetoken  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 2:37:57am

re: #268 iceweasel

Response times are slow for me too, for some reason. Not just here, but at many sites.


You're looking for Boykins and it was Thanos:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

270 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 2:43:58am

re: #269 freetoken

Response times are slow for me too, for some reason. Not just here, but at many sites.

You're looking for Boykins and it was Thanos:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I can't open that and also edit my page - sorry, can you give me the title of his piece too and I can drop it in? thanks!

271 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 2:48:28am

ok, never mind-- added my own title and used your link.

I couldn't open Thanos's pages and couldn't find the right tags to search.

272 freetoken  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 2:55:37am

re: #271 iceweasel

Well, it was "GOP Scratches Religious Wingnut Witness from Kagan hearings Monday".

Which browsers are you using?

273 ryannon  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 3:20:00am

re: #265 ralphieboy

"desks" rhymes with "masks".

Only Bobby can get away with a rhyme like that. If it don't fit, just get a bigger poetry hammer and bend that sucker into place.

My absolute fave of his was

"...he felt the heat of the night hit him like a freight/
train, rollin on through a simple twist of fate."

He also possessed a genius for bending words and phrases in ways that no one had ever done before.

274 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 3:24:20am

Good morning!

Anyone care to defend the GOP attacking Marshall?

:evilgrin:

275 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 3:26:42am

re: #273 ryannon

And a genius for irony:

Oxford Town in the afternoon
Ev'rybody singin' a sorrowful tune
Two men died 'neath the Mississippi moon
Somebody better investigate soon.

276 amrafel  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 3:28:40am

Charles, while I like to hear what the GOP's opinion is of Kagan, I'd much rather hear your opinion. By pointing out, and rightfully mocking, only the critics of Kagan, you give the impression that you're 100% behind Kagan. (And what goes for Kagan goes for many other issues at your great site.)

277 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 3:32:01am

re: #272 freetoken

Well, it was "GOP Scratches Religious Wingnut Witness from Kagan hearings Monday".

Which browsers are you using?

Whatever the most recent version of FF is. It's something on my end, not LGF. I had access to another computer the other day, used FF and LGF just FLEW!
Other problems on my end with loading and playing video regardless of the site too.

It sucks, because to post here I can't really have anything else open at all or open anything more than one tab at a time. Makes posting pages really difficult. Anyway it's something with this computer.

278 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 3:32:33am

re: #274 Varek Raith

Good morning!

Anyone care to defend the GOP attacking Marshall?

:evilgrin:

Not I. Was that rhetorical?

279 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 3:33:10am

re: #276 amrafel

Charles, while I like to hear what the GOP's opinion is of Kagan, I'd much rather hear your opinion. By pointing out, and rightfully mocking, only the critics of Kagan, you give the impression that you're 100% behind Kagan. (And what goes for Kagan goes for many other issues at your great site.)

I was against the Iraq war therefore, I'm against all war???
Logic fail.

280 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 3:33:24am

re: #278 EdDantes

Not I. Was that rhetorical?

Yes.
Hence, the evil grin.

281 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 3:33:50am

re: #277 iceweasel

Shoot your computer!
(who said that?)

282 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 3:34:57am

re: #280 Varek Raith

Yes.
Hence, the evil grin.

Like, I totally knew! Guuy!

283 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 3:36:09am

re: #276 amrafel

Charles, while I like to hear what the GOP's opinion is of Kagan, I'd much rather hear your opinion. By pointing out, and rightfully mocking, only the critics of Kagan, you give the impression that you're 100% behind Kagan. (And what goes for Kagan goes for many other issues at your great site.)

That's just wingnut excuse making. Criticising one party or the way a party is handling the confirmation process doesn''t have to mean you endorse or even like the nominee. This is really very fucking elemental shit having to do with the nature of criticism and intellectual honesty.

The failure to understand that is why the right has such a hysterical 'You're with us or against us!" reaction right now, why they're purging everyone with a brain, and why they're trying to destroy anyone who offers any criticism. Most of all those they perceive as apostates to the One True Faith.

284 ryannon  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 3:40:53am

re: #277 iceweasel

Whatever the most recent version of FF is. It's something on my end, not LGF. I had access to another computer the other day, used FF and LGF just FLEW!
Other problems on my end with loading and playing video regardless of the site too.

It sucks, because to post here I can't really have anything else open at all or open anything more than one tab at a time. Makes posting pages really difficult. Anyway it's something with this computer.

Download and run the free version of Anti Malware Bytes and try the free version of Glary Utilities

If you have it, remove Norton. For real-time virus and malware protection, download and install the free version of Avast

Try switching to Chrome for your browser.

285 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 3:42:23am

re: #284 ryannon

Download and run the free version of Anti Malware Bytes and try the free version of Glary Utilities

If you have it, remove Norton. For real-time virus and malware protection, download and install the free version of Avast

Try switching to Chrome for your browser.

Same with McAfee.

286 ryannon  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 3:44:46am

And do a disk defrag with the free version of Auslogics

Check your (snail) mailbox, flush your toilet and say three Ave Marias.

287 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 3:51:07am

Wah, wah! Charles, why don't you post on Code Pink anymore? Can't we have threads on Bill Ayers? //

This place has always just been anti-idiotarian as far as I know. It mocks wherever the idiots are at the moment. There's no 'rule' that any blogger even has to offer his own opinion about anything, much less endorse candidates, do policy analysis, etc.

Tons of blogs just do meta-criticism: meta criticisms of media, of politics, of more. Why not? HUGE market and incredibly useful for the readers.
of course those sites are all considered to be 'on the left' now because the right decided to go full on partisan all the time, and a very weird kind of partisan, where any criticism of Palin, Beck, Rush, and teaparties means you're a sell out. really, that's exactly what John Hawkins announced yesterday: if you do those things, conservative blogads won't let you in--or let you claim you're conservative.

No one on the right (blogosphere) really was ever doing that but Charles and people basically kicked him out for daring to do that. Wah, wah, you have to ride our crazytrain, all the way to 11!

(this is not to say the bloggers on the left aren't partisan, but not in the same lockstep way that apparently the GOP and the rightwing blogosphere demands. )

288 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 3:52:32am

re: #284 ryannon

Download and run the free version of Anti Malware Bytes and try the free version of Glary Utilities

If you have it, remove Norton. For real-time virus and malware protection, download and install the free version of Avast

Try switching to Chrome for your browser.

Thanks very much ryannon-- will try. I do have norton on this computer and think it's behind a lot of it. Bookmarked, thanks again.

289 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 3:53:39am

re: #288 iceweasel

Thanks very much ryannon-- will try. I do have norton on this computer and think it's behind a lot of it. Bookmarked, thanks again.

Norton is an amazing resource hog.

290 ryannon  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 3:56:27am

re: #289 Varek Raith

Norton is an amazing resource hog.

291 Summer Seale  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 3:58:37am

re: #289 Varek Raith

Norton is an amazing resource hog.

Norton sucks.

292 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 3:59:20am

re: #289 Varek Raith

Norton is an amazing resource hog.

I've had avast before I think-- I'm stuck on an old laptop (with norton) while I move and all my other stuff (and computers) is in transit.

293 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:00:00am

re: #291 Summer

Norton sucks.

Not only is Norton bloated, it misses stuff, too!

294 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:01:53am

I never thought I'd see the day where association with Thurgood Marshall was made out to be a bad thing.

295 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:02:11am

Whoa, NORTON RAAAGGGEEE!
Sorry about that.
XD

296 Summer Seale  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:02:14am

My post was cut off because I wasn't paying attention. I was going to say:

Norton sucks. (Bolded period for emphasis)

So does McAffee.

To paraphrase: "If I were the Supreme Being, I wouldn't mess about with Norton or McAffee! I would have started with Avast! Eight O'Clock! Day One!"

Thank you. =)

297 researchok  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:02:18am

Ice-

Saw your Drudge page.

Think decaf.

298 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:02:30am

I haven't used Norton since 1996.

299 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:06:16am

re: #298 EdDantes

I haven't used Norton since 1996.


AVG Free For Me!

Good Morning Lizards!

300 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:06:35am

re: #297 researchok

Ice-

Saw your Drudge page.

Think decaf.

Image: drudge-siren.gif

301 ryannon  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:06:49am

re: #291 Summer

Norton sucks.

Blood on the Intertubes

Image: DIl3GyEP3ryr2FS2T8IP77YTCC8.jpg

302 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:06:53am

re: #110 Gus 802

Are you, or are you not a member of the Communist party?!

I once got asked this question on the employment form of a company I was applying for a job.

I put down, "None of your fucking business!"

Didn't get the job. I wonder why? ;)

303 researchok  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:07:20am

re: #300 Varek Raith

Image: drudge-siren.gif

Saw that- LMAO

304 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:08:13am

re: #302 Romantic Heretic

I once got asked this question on the employment form of a company I was applying for a job.

I put down, "None of your fucking business!"

Didn't get the job. I wonder why? ;)

I ask new applicants if they were ever in the Jedi Order.

305 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:10:17am

re: #299 rwdflynavy

AVG Free For Me!

Good Morning Lizards!

Microsoft Security Essentials is very nice and quiet...and free.

306 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:11:20am

re: #297 researchok

Ice-

Saw your Drudge page.

Think decaf.

Well, it *is* tagged humor.

307 researchok  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:11:54am

re: #306 iceweasel

Well, it *is* tagged humor.

I know- I really did LOL

308 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:12:18am

re: #299 rwdflynavy

AVG Free For Me!

Good Morning Lizards!

NOD32 for me.
Morning!

309 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:12:26am

re: #302 Romantic Heretic

I once got asked this question on the employment form of a company I was applying for a job.

I put down, "None of your fucking business!"

Didn't get the job. I wonder why? ;)

Just say, nyet tovarich.

310 researchok  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:12:45am

Off to net meet

later all...

311 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:13:42am

re: #309 EdDantes

Just say, nyet tovarich.

O'Neill - What did you say?
Jackson - That we weren't spies.
O'Neill - IN RUSSIAN?!?!

312 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:16:24am

Must leave now. Be excellent to each other.

313 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:18:13am

re: #307 researchok

I know- I really did LOL

Thinking it might be a recurring theme on my page.

The drudge siren is just funny in general. Especially as an icon for the day's outrageous outrage.

314 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:24:06am

re: #309 EdDantes

Just say, nyet tovarich.

Reminds me of a knock knock joke.

Knock knock: Who's there?
KGB
KGB Who?
*SLAP* KGB will ask the questions!!!!

315 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:27:34am

re: #314 rwdflynavy

Reminds me of a knock knock joke.

Knock knock: Who's there?
KGB
KGB Who?
*SLAP* KGB will ask the questions!!!

Let's play communist:

YOU LIE!
*slap* *slap* *slap*
YOU LIE!
*slap* *slap* *slap*
YOU LIE!

Boy, that was fun back in the day.

316 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:30:38am

Cheer from historic 1972 Canada-USSR hockey championship:

Da, da, Canada,
Nyet, nyet, Soviet!

317 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:32:12am

re: #316 Spare O'Lake

Cheer from historic 1972 Canada-USSR hockey championship:

Da, da, Canada,
Nyet, nyet, Soviet!


*upding*
(can't upding for some reason, so here is your virtual upding (as if the "real" ones weren't virtual as well...))

318 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:42:49am

re: #302 Romantic Heretic

I once got asked this question on the employment form of a company I was applying for a job.

I put down, "None of your fucking business!"

Didn't get the job. I wonder why? ;)

Well the sign said "Long haired freaky-looking people need not apply",
So I tucked my hair up under my hat and went in to ask him why,
He said "You're a fine upstanding young man - I think you'll do,
So I took off my and said "Imagine that, ME working for YOU?"

319 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:44:33am

re: #318 Spare O'Lake

Well the sign said "Long haired freaky-looking people need not apply",
So I tucked my hair up under my hat and went in to ask him why,
He said "You're a fine upstanding young man - I think you'll do,
So I took off my hat and said "Imagine that, ME working for YOU?"


pimf

320 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:47:28am

Bangin' on Thurgood Marshall?... I would've liked to been in that strategy session.

Hrumpher: "So, I was thinking that I could attack Thurgood Marshall as a way of going after Kagan."
FBV: "Are you out of your fucking mind?"

Also...

Marshall “might be the epitome of a results-oriented judge,”

What Earth does that mean?

321 Kruk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:52:08am

re: #311 Varek Raith

O'Neill - What did you say?
Jackson - That we weren't spies.
O'Neill - IN RUSSIAN?!?!

Heh. That's probably my second favorite Jackson/O'Neill conversation, right after this one in "Demons".

O'Neil: "It's not a demon, it's an alien. Tell them, Daniel."

Jackson, thoughtfully: "An extremely strong, very long lived, virtually unkillable alien..."

O'Neill, pointedly: "But not a demon."

Jackson, oblivious: "In service to Sokar, who for all intents and purposes is the Devil to these people..."

O'Neill, through gritted teeth: "But not a demon, right?"

Jackson, finally catching on: "Oh, no! Not a demon!"

322 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:00:08am

Reading another article from the Post and Lindsey Graham, a Republican I usually like is quoted as saying that Kagan's growing up in a "liberal household is something we'll need to talk about." What the hell does that even mean? My dad grew up in what you'd call a liberal household in that his father openly opposed sergeration and forms of bigotry. And quite frankly I get sick and tired of Republicans trying to make everyone left of them politically from the East coast out to be elitists. This is a dishonest at best strategy and it's really annoying.

323 Kruk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:01:24am

re: #320 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Bangin' on Thurgood Marshall?... I would've liked to been in that strategy session.

Hrumpher: "So, I was thinking that I could attack Thurgood Marshall as a way of going after Kagan."
FBV: "Are you out of your fucking mind?"

Also...

What Earth does that mean?

I think it means they believe Marshall twisted law and facts to get the results he wanted. Sigh. They're not even trying to conceal their dislike for the Civil Rights movement anymore, are they? First Rand Paul's comments on the CRA, the move to amend the 14th, and now attacking a Civil Rights icon like Marshall. It would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic. Like it or not, there are votes to be gained by attacking Civil Rights, and the current GOP is pandering to those votes without shame.

324 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:03:21am

Kocab leaves behind a wife who is nine months pregnant, Iorio said during a news conference at Tampa General Hospital. Kocab joined the Police Department about 14 months ago from the Plant City Police Department.

Curtis, the officer on life support, has a wife and four young children, Iorio said. A former Hillsborough County jail deputy, he became a Tampa police officer 2006.

[Link: www.tampabay.com...]

Sad day here. Prayers for the families.

325 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:13:30am

re: #324 Cannadian Club Akbar

Sad. They're not publishing the name of the perp? They knew there were outstanding warrants, so that means it was called in or something, right?

You'd think putting the shooter's name out there might aid in apprehension.

326 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:15:33am

re: #325 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My radio just said the SWAT team has been deployed. They have some part of the city on lockdown. I hope the guy makes a move.

327 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:17:41am

re: #324 Cannadian Club Akbar

The officer on life support, his 4 children were all sons.

328 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:18:59am

re: #327 Cannadian Club Akbar

The officer on life support, his 4 children were are all sons.

329 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:20:43am

re: #328 Cannadian Club Akbar

The sons are all under the age of 10.

330 Kruk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:23:07am

re: #326 Cannadian Club Akbar

My radio just said the SWAT team has been deployed. They have some part of the city on lockdown. I hope the guy makes a move.

These guys often *want* to out in a blaze of glory. I'd much rather he was put on trial and spend several years contemplating his (probably inevitable) execution. Shooting police officers to avoid arrest would count as special circumstances, wouldn't it?

331 garhighway  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:27:29am

re: #330 Kruk

These guys often *want* to out in a blaze of glory. I'd much rather he was put on trial and spend several years contemplating his (probably inevitable) execution. Shooting police officers to avoid arrest would count as special circumstances, wouldn't it?

It's called "suicide by cop". It is surprisingly common.

332 Kruk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:27:58am

re: #325 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sad. They're not publishing the name of the perp? They knew there were outstanding warrants, so that means it was called in or something, right?

You'd think putting the shooter's name out there might aid in apprehension.

Not to mention reducing the risk to innocent people who match the description. Reading the comments on the site, there's a lot of anger about this, and some are using it to slam Blacks in general.

333 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:30:23am

re: #330 Kruk

These guys often *want* to out in a blaze of glory. I'd much rather he was put on trial and spend several years contemplating his (probably inevitable) execution. Shooting police officers to avoid arrest would count as special circumstances, wouldn't it?

Yes. If the guy who did the shooting goes to trial and is found guilty, he will get the needle. The woman driver will probably get life.

334 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:34:56am

re: #322 HappyWarrior

Reading another article from the Post and Lindsey Graham, a Republican I usually like is quoted as saying that Kagan's growing up in a "liberal household is something we'll need to talk about." What the hell does that even mean? My dad grew up in what you'd call a liberal household in that his father openly opposed sergeration and forms of bigotry. And quite frankly I get sick and tired of Republicans trying to make everyone left of them politically from the East coast out to be elitists. This is a dishonest at best strategy and it's really annoying.

Can i get the link for that from you? I want to post about this whole mess.

335 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:36:13am

re: #330 Kruk

These guys often *want* to out in a blaze of glory. I'd much rather he was put on trial and spend several years contemplating his (probably inevitable) execution. Shooting police officers to avoid arrest would count as special circumstances, wouldn't it?

I hope the guy is killed today by his own hand or by the cops. Within the next minute or two. Buried by Thursday in Potters Field in an unmarked grave, not to be remembered on Friday.

Is that harsh?

336 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:36:59am

re: #335 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I hope the guy is killed today by his own hand or by the cops. Within the next minute or two. Buried by Thursday in Potters Field in an unmarked grave, not to be remembered on Friday.

Is that harsh?

I gave an upding, so, no.

337 McSpiff  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:40:56am

re: #335 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Is harsh necessarily a bad thing?

338 Kruk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:41:16am

re: #335 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I hope the guy is killed today by his own hand or by the cops. Within the next minute or two. Buried by Thursday in Potters Field in an unmarked grave, not to be remembered on Friday.

Is that harsh?

No, not harsh, but I believe being tried, convicted and executed by due process of law is a much more fitting fate for a cop-killer. If he dies in a hail of bullets, he will both get a quick death and (sad as it sounds) become a hero in some circles. If he gets the needle, he'll be just another murderer.

339 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:43:33am

The officer on life support has basically died. His family wants to harvest his organs so they are leaving him on life support during the process.

340 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:45:09am

re: #338 Kruk

Nothing personal. But, BULLSHIT!

Right winger here, wingnut division!

Kill him. A hail of gunfire will cost a lot less than 15 years of court time and a lifetime of incarceration or the needle.

Libs...

Gotta go to work. Have to be in a meeting in 15 minutes. Still sitting in the hotel.

341 McSpiff  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:45:34am

re: #339 Cannadian Club Akbar

The officer on life support has basically died. His family wants to harvest his organs so they are leaving him on life support during the process.

One last act of public service... absolutely heart breaking.

342 McSpiff  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:46:44am

re: #340 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Heh You won't find many here further left than me FBV (I voted democratic-socialist last election...) but if you live by the sword, you die by the sword. Law and order doesn't even enter into this for me.

343 Kruk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:53:41am

re: #340 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Nothing personal. But, BULLSHIT!

Right winger here, wingnut division!

Kill him. A hail of gunfire will cost a lot less than 15 years of court time and a lifetime of incarceration or the needle.

Libs...

Gotta go to work. Have to be in a meeting in 15 minutes. Still sitting in the hotel.

How far do we take that? Cop Killers? Mass Murderers? Serial Rapists? Paedophiles? Call me a bleeding heart liberal (or any name you like), but I believe it's *never* better for justice to be dispensed by gunfire. How many times have iron-clad cases fallen apart in court? How many times have people been *convicted* and then been found to be innocent? The legal process is slow, it's costly, and sometimes it's ugly, but it's bettter than the alternative.

344 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:56:49am

re: #340 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Nothing personal. But, BULLSHIT!

Right winger here, wingnut division!

Kill him. A hail of gunfire will cost a lot less than 15 years of court time and a lifetime of incarceration or the needle.

Libs...

Gotta go to work. Have to be in a meeting in 15 minutes. Still sitting in the hotel.

I call Bullshit. You're not a wingnut.

345 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:57:00am

Trillion here, a trillions there.
[Link: www.cnbc.com...]

346 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:57:39am

Alex Jones being interviewed by Opie and Anthony on XM 202 right now. It could be interesting. They really hammered Jesse Ventura until he stormed out of the studio. Let's see how they handle Alex.

347 Ericus58  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:58:26am

re: #343 Kruk

How far do we take that? Cop Killers? Mass Murderers? Serial Rapists? Paedophiles? Call me a bleeding heart liberal (or any name you like), but I believe it's *never* better for justice to be dispensed by gunfire. How many times have iron-clad cases fallen apart in court? How many times have people been *convicted* and then been found to be innocent? The legal process is slow, it's costly, and sometimes it's ugly, but it's bettter than the alternative.

Seems pretty tight on knowing who did this evil crime, Kruk. I don't think your splash of the paint bucket on the canvas really applies specific to this one.

Hunt him without rest.

348 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:58:29am

re: #334 iceweasel

Can i get the link for that from you? I want to post about this whole mess.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]
Here ya are.

349 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:58:36am

re: #343 Kruk

It's OK to express passionate brain-stem outrage on the intertubes, but in the end this guy needs to be put through the system coldly and correctly.

350 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:58:37am

re: #346 Killgore Trout

Jesse is my favorite kook. Heh.

351 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:59:59am

re: #350 Cannadian Club Akbar

Jesse is my favorite kook. Heh.

Like many Libertarians, he can make good sense for 5-7 minutes at a time.

352 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:02:10am

LGF seems to be running a little sluggish this morning. Just me?

353 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:03:34am

re: #352 Killgore Trout

LGF seems to be running a little sluggish this morning. Just me?

My little wheel is getting a workout at times.

354 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:03:54am

Ugh, XM is going to start broadcasting Alex Jone's show every day.
Sigh.

355 McSpiff  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:04:40am

re: #349 Decatur Deb

It's OK to express passionate brain-stem outrage on the intertubes, but in the end this guy needs to be put through the system coldly and correctly.

Unless that puts anyone else in danger. You shoot a cop and go into siege mode? They can burn the house down for all I care.

356 Kruk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:04:44am

re: #347 Ericus58

Seems pretty tight on knowing who did this evil crime, Kruk. I don't think your splash of the paint bucket on the canvas really applies specific to this one.

Hunt him without rest.

Hunt, yes. Find with out delay, yes. Use all the precautions needed when dealing with such a dangerous person, yes. Use deadly force if needed, yes. All of that I'd agree with.

But *hoping* for a deadly shootout and an execution without trial? No. I'll never agree with that.

357 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:05:31am

So, Alex Jones is basically being put in the mainstream? Sheesh the guy's a goddamned nutcase. He's had David Icke on his show and Icke is the guy who believes some wealthy families like the Rothchilds and Bushes are actually reptilian creatures.

358 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:05:38am

re: #338 Kruk

No, not harsh, but I believe being tried, convicted and executed by due process of law is a much more fitting fate for a cop-killer. If he dies in a hail of bullets, he will both get a quick death and (sad as it sounds) become a hero in some circles. If he gets the needle, he'll be just another murderer.

I would prefer that. Not least because that process (the trial and conviction and punishment awarded lawfully) is often much more helpful to the victims and survivors and families.

There's some sort of brute emotional satisfaction in the notion of fitting (eye for an eye) justice, and in the immediacy (no drawn out process), but many families have struggled because of the lack of the legal process when someone can never be brought to trial because he's dead-- no chance to face them, no chance to say what this person did, maybe most of all never any chance to confront them and say, Why? and This is what you did to us, this is who that person you killed was.

In any case, I would prefer due process, trial, conviction and punishment for lots of reasons, but the above is one people should consider too. It's easy to make an emotional appeal. Too easy.

359 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:06:19am

It's interesting that we're still getting hits from Reuters....

Reuters
Today: 17
Yesterday: 21

I wonder what they're looking at.

360 Kruk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:06:39am

re: #355 McSpiff

Unless that puts anyone else in danger. You shoot a cop and go into siege mode? They can burn the house down for all I care.

What about other people in the house? What about (heaven forbid) someone who matches the description but isn't?

361 McSpiff  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:06:53am

re: #359 Killgore Trout

It's interesting that we're still getting hits from Reuters...

I wonder what they're looking at.

Tomorrow's stories.

362 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:06:56am

re: #353 Cannadian Club Akbar

My little wheel is getting a workout at times.

Is that what the kids are calling it these days?

363 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:07:15am

re: #348 HappyWarrior

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]
Here ya are.

Thank you so much-- computer issues here, sorry. Will upding i promise asap.

364 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:07:53am

re: #355 McSpiff

Unless that puts anyone else in danger. You shoot a cop and go into siege mode? They can burn the house down for all I care.

If he resists, killing him is within the system.

365 McSpiff  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:08:42am

re: #360 Kruk

What about other people in the house? What about (heaven forbid) someone who matches the description but isn't?

1) Check first?

2) That doesn't apply to what I said. Siege mode is barricading and refusing to deal with the police. If the police knock at your door, maybe you should answer?

366 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:09:22am

re: #357 HappyWarrior

So, Alex Jones is basically being put in the mainstream? Sheesh the guy's a goddamned nutcase. He's had David Icke on his show and Icke is the guy who believes some wealthy families like the Rothchilds and Bushes are actually reptilian creatures.

Yeah, it's really bad.

367 Ericus58  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:10:57am

re: #356 Kruk

Hunt, yes. Find with out delay, yes. Use all the precautions needed when dealing with such a dangerous person, yes. Use deadly force if needed, yes. All of that I'd agree with.

But *hoping* for a deadly shootout and an execution without trial? No. I'll never agree with that.

That's not what I said. again with the paint bucket.
This isn't some convoluted investigation in regards to the gunman.
Pursue this craven ass until he's in custody.

And at the slightest attempt on his part to fight or make mayhem by taking a hostage - terminate with extreme prejudice.

368 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:11:58am

re: #363 iceweasel

Thank you so much-- computer issues here, sorry. Will upding i promise asap.

It's all cool. There's some real petty arguments that the Republicans quoted in the article have against Kagan such as Kyl from Arizona who takes issue with her Princeton and Harvard background. I wonder if Kyl would have a problem with Princeton alum James Madison.

369 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:12:50am

re: #367 Ericus58

That's not what I said. again with the paint bucket.
This isn't some convoluted investigation in regards to the gunman.
Pursue this craven ass until he's in custody.

And at the slightest attempt on his part to fight or make mayhem by taking a hostage - terminate with extreme prejudice.

The last update I got was they tracked the perp's scent with dogs and were going door to door.

370 Kruk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:13:26am

re: #365 McSpiff

1) Check first?

2) That doesn't apply to what I said. Siege mode is barricading and refusing to deal with the police. If the police knock at your door, maybe you should answer?

People don't always react logically. The problem I have is that in a tense situation, actions are often interpretated to fill the expectations people already have. If you're looking for a cop-killer, you'll see the actions of the person you're dealing with as being those of a cop killer. If you're looking for a suicide bomber, you'll see the actions of a suicide bomber. In those situations, innocent people can and are killed. It's happened before.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

371 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:13:57am

re: #367 Ericus58

The thing is, most cops actually prefer arresting people to gunning them down, TV and movies aside.

Killing people isn't actually a trivial thing. Even killing bad, nasty people. Remember that when you wish for such things, you're wishing for that psychological toll to fall on a police officer, or officers.

[Link: www.ojp.usdoj.gov...]

[Link: www.springerlink.com...]

372 Kruk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:15:55am

re: #367 Ericus58

That's not what I said. again with the paint bucket.
This isn't some convoluted investigation in regards to the gunman.
Pursue this craven ass until he's in custody.

And at the slightest attempt on his part to fight or make mayhem by taking a hostage - terminate with extreme prejudice.

You didn't say it, but others did:

FBV: I hope the guy is killed today by his own hand or by the cops. Within the next minute or two. Buried by Thursday in Potters Field in an unmarked grave, not to be remembered on Friday.

373 Ericus58  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:16:48am

re: #358 iceweasel

I would prefer that. Not least because that process (the trial and conviction and punishment awarded lawfully) is often much more helpful to the victims and survivors and families.

There's some sort of brute emotional satisfaction in the notion of fitting (eye for an eye) justice, and in the immediacy (no drawn out process), but many families have struggled because of the lack of the legal process when someone can never be brought to trial because he's dead-- no chance to face them, no chance to say what this person did, maybe most of all never any chance to confront them and say, Why? and This is what you did to us, this is who that person you killed was.

In any case, I would prefer due process, trial, conviction and punishment for lots of reasons, but the above is one people should consider too. It's easy to make an emotional appeal. Too easy.

Of course, Ice. We all agree with this.
But in most cases with a gunman who has targeted an LEO, that person is one who has pretty much thrown away the shackles (to him) of the need to conform to civilized behavior. That truly is dangerous and elevates the situation. Apprehending such a criminal has the highest degree of placing the LEO's (and general public) at risk.

374 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:17:41am

re: #371 Obdicut

And by the way, one of those links shows that the trauma of the shooting is mainly mediated by the response of peers, media, and the public in the aftermath, and that there's great hope for long-term recovery when they're supported. However, sadly, police officers can't depend on that even in very clear-cut cases, and especially when there's any sort of political or other hay to be made. And in any case, it shows significant trauma at the time of the shooting and the months following, even if they do eventually fully recover.

375 McSpiff  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:20:04am

re: #370 Kruk

All I can say is, if you're in a situation where a cop has been killed or injured... I suggest you leave quickly. Those rose coloured glasses might not save you.

376 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:21:31am

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. Here's another take on yesterday's gun case - one that finds that Chicago won both of its key arguments, but lost the decision, and which puts at odds all the headlines saying that it was a win for gun ownership.

377 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:22:08am

re: #358 iceweasel

Ice--If you're doing something on Sen Jefferson Beauregard Sessions, my emissary to the Yankee capitol, here is a resource:

[Link: leftinalabama.com...]

378 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:23:32am

Stupid internet connection.
/
Hi, again!

379 Summer Seale  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:24:17am

Well, I had to sum up my feelings in some words a bout what is going on in the Republican Party and Conservative moment today:

The Long Dark Racism of the Republican Party.

380 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:25:16am

re: #378 Varek Raith

Stupid internet connection.
/
Hi, again!

Obama shut down your internet because you made him mad.
/

381 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:26:19am

re: #380 Cannadian Club Akbar

Obama shut down your internet because you made him mad.
/

That bastard!!!
*Leaves flaming paperbag on White House front porch*

382 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:26:22am

This is an excellent essay on police ethics as they apply to violent encounters:

[Link: www.apsu.edu...]

Here's a fuller version of Klinger's paper, as well:

[Link: www.killzonevoices.com...]

383 Kruk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:26:43am

re: #375 McSpiff

All I can say is, if you're in a situation where a cop has been killed or injured... I suggest you leave quickly. Those rose coloured glasses might not save you.

You mean would I try to speak up if someone was being in danger of being summarily killed, and therefore put myself at risk of becoming a target as well? I don't know. I don't think any of us know if we have the courage of our convictions if it meant putting ourselves in physical danger until they're in that situation. What I know is that civilised societies don't give in to the instinct to kill people without trial.

384 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:26:53am

re: #373 Ericus58

Of course, Ice. We all agree with this.
But in most cases with a gunman who has targeted an LEO, that person is one who has pretty much thrown away the shackles (to him) of the need to conform to civilized behavior. That truly is dangerous and elevates the situation. Apprehending such a criminal has the highest degree of placing the LEO's (and general public) at risk.

I'm aware of all that. I know LEO's myself.

I also defended FVB above. He isn't a wingnut, just a normal person who is happens to be on the right, and was expressing a perfectly natural emotional response.
I think it's natural to have that response in the heat of the moment. I won't castigate him for it.

I also think that we can't just go with our emotional responses, and we have to go with the rule of law and due process. I can't endorse eschewing that-- but I understand why someone might post that way as a first reaction. That's all.

385 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:28:42am

re: #316 Spare O'Lake

Cheer from historic 1972 Canada-USSR hockey championship:

Da, da, Canada,
Nyet, nyet, Soviet!

I made good money betting on the Soviets.

Despite being Canadian I don't care much for hockey. My geography is pretty good though so I knew the USSR had ten times as many people as Canada and their winters are as long and cold as ours. They were bound to have at least a few good hockey players.

Plus every one was, "Oh yeah, we'll beat those fucking pansy commies."

So I bet on the Soviets, got odds too.

Does that make me an entrepreneur or a traitor? ;)

386 Vambo  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:28:56am

Glenn Beck to hold Tea Party rally on anniversary of MLK Jr's speech.
[Link: www.alternet.org...]

I'm getting really tired of this passive-aggressive racism from those Tea Party pussies. Just say what you fucking mean already, you hate black people.

387 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:30:18am

re: #318 Spare O'Lake

Well the sign said "Long haired freaky-looking people need not apply",
So I tucked my hair up under my hat and went in to ask him why,
He said "You're a fine upstanding young man - I think you'll do,
So I took off my and said "Imagine that, ME working for YOU?"

Oh man. Haven't heard that song in ages. Happy memories.

388 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:31:51am

New tactic to get elected discovered in NV.

Sharon Angle, the Tea Party/GOP candidate for US Senate has avoided doing any tv/radio interviews:

Ms. Angle, a Nevada Senate candidate and Tea Party darling, has steadfastly refused to talk to reporters here, leading to some unusually aggressive behavior by local television stations. In a segment fit for TMZ, one intrepid reporter chased her on foot outside a restaurant this month, repeatedly asking why she had once said that “if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies.” She ignored the questioner and tried to outpace him, in a video clip replayed across the state.

In her silence, Ms. Angle has exposed a fault line in political journalism. Candidates typically live and die by television exposure, with interviews supplementing the usual barrage of advertisements. But in local races across the country, there are fewer reporters asking questions on behalf of voters, and there are more media alternatives than ever, including talk radio and Facebook.

Still, Ms. Angle is quickly discovering that there is no better way to wake up a sleepy TV news crew than to refuse an interview request — or 10 requests, or 20.

“I can’t remember a time that we’ve ever had trouble with interviews,” said Mary Beth Farrell, the news director at KRNV, the local NBC affiliate. “Especially with people running for office — they usually beat our door down.”

Now, why would she want to avoid the interviews? Could it be that when pressed, she'll fold like a house of cards? It's not like her opponent is good - Harry Reid isn't, and his positions on energy policy are standing in the way of seriously weaning the nation off its oil/gas dependence for electric power generation by thwarting the operation of the Yucca Mt. nuclear waste repository. But voters should have a right to know her positions on a wide range of issues, and she's doing her best to mask her views and that simply isn't good.

It also shows a serious failing by media outlets to get her positions known to voters but now that the news is on why she keeps refusing interviews, it makes it seem like she has something to hide.

And she surely does.

389 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:33:21am

Nobody commenting on the alleged Russian spy ring yet?

FBI agents arrested 10 people on charges that they spent years in the United States as spies for Russia, taking on fake identities and trying to ferret out intelligence about U.S. policy and secrets by making connections to think tanks and government officials, the Justice Department said Monday.

and (h/t EoZ), it seems some were using forged passports

DUBLIN — Britain and Ireland are investigating reports that fake British and Irish passports were used by members of an alleged Russian spy ring arrested in the US, officials said Tuesday.

London and Dublin said they were checking after US officials announced the arrest of 10 "deep-cover" suspects accused of infiltrating policymaking and reporting back to Moscow.

but, but, but.... I thought only the Mossad was so maliciously arrogant that they would use other countries passports!
/

390 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:35:22am

re: #389 Joo-LiZ

Did anything ever come out of the Dubia assassination or is Interpol still chasing its tail?

391 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:36:04am

Jeff Sessions.
Prick.

392 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:37:23am

re: #390 Cannadian Club Akbar

Did anything ever come out of the Dubia assassination or is Interpol still chasing its tail?

The only thing I've heard is that recently there was one guy arrested in Poland for using a German passport flagged by Interpol as having taken part in the assassination. He's being extricated to Germany, presumably for some sort of trial. I don't know the details.

393 Summer Seale  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:37:50am

I will just post the summation of my lengthy litany of Republican racist remarks in the last few weeks and months, and what it has led me to see:

On the subject of platforms, one last statement: The Tea Party is National Socialism. It is a “grass roots” movement which has been inundated with flag-waving separatism by the “common man” who is rejecting the “elite” politician for a Utopian ideal from the past which never was. And it is being used by skillful politicians who talk up a great deal about race and a “new science” which rejects “junk science” for what they consider to be “science” in their favor. It wants to chase away scientists it considers to be a threat. It talks consistently about how elites have destroyed what they consider to be “real American values” and rejects anything outside of their inner circle as “unamerican”. It uses the terms which agrees with the idea of “God With Us” emblazoned on the sleeves of many of its participants. It talks about guns and revolution, and the legitimacy of certain Americans to call themselves American. It favors conspiracy theories about dark “cabals” controlling the world banks and government. And all done under an economic depression where the dollar has been devalued and frustrated people are easily manipulated.

If that description doesn’t agitate and disturb you in a very explicit way, then you really have no business marching, or making any political commentary until it does. Because that is where our country is currently headed, and that is what the Republicans have now pandered to and made “Mainstream”.

394 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:38:25am

re: #389 Joo-LiZ

Nobody commenting on the alleged Russian spy ring yet?

but, but, but... I thought only the Mossad was so maliciously arrogant that they would use other countries passports!
/

We were discussing that yesterday. Much of the conversation on news stories has moved to the Pages. I'm waiting to see what Alex Jones and Glenn Beck make of that story. It could be interesting. Yesterday Pajamas Media was trying to blame Obama's weakness for the Russian spies despite the fact they've been here for over a decade.

395 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:38:42am

re: #389 Joo-LiZ

Eh... it's Israeli double standard time - occurring on every day that ends with a Y.

396 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:39:18am

SLOW INTERNET IS SLOW.

397 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:40:36am

Lol.
PROGRESSIVES!11!1!!

398 Ericus58  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:40:49am

re: #384 iceweasel

I'm aware of all that. I know LEO's myself.

I also defended FVB above. He isn't a wingnut, just a normal person who is happens to be on the right, and was expressing a perfectly natural emotional response.
I think it's natural to have that response in the heat of the moment. I won't castigate him for it.

I also think that we can't just go with our emotional responses, and we have to go with the rule of law and due process. I can't endorse eschewing that-- but I understand why someone might post that way as a first reaction. That's all.

I can not disagree with your post or position.
I just find myself rolling my eyes at the instant hand-wringing by some.

I'll grab D-Stars drums if you bring the flowers.

399 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:41:30am

re: #382 Obdicut

This is an excellent essay on police ethics as they apply to violent encounters:

[Link: www.apsu.edu...]

Here's a fuller version of Klinger's paper, as well:

[Link: www.killzonevoices.com...]

Bookmarking for leisure reading. I worked at an installation that developed some of these NLW's:

[Link: books.google.com...]

400 Vambo  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:42:01am

re: #379 Summer

Well, I had to sum up my feelings in some words a bout what is going on in the Republican Party and Conservative moment today:

The Long Dark Racism of the Republican Party.

GREAT post. 10 updings!

401 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:42:17am

re: #397 Varek Raith

Seriously. And "Worked for the Clinton administration" is a sign of being progressive? Progressives hated Clinton.

However, by making "Progressive" equivalent to "Like Justice Thurgood Marshall", I think the GOP is doing a fine job of rehabilitating the word 'progressive'.

402 Vambo  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:42:44am

re: #393 Summer

I will just post the summation of my lengthy litany of Republican racist remarks in the last few weeks and months, and what it has led me to see:

Yeah, this was the best part -- you nailed it.

403 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:43:04am

re: #394 Killgore Trout

Yesterday Pajamas Media was trying to blame Obama's weakness for the Russian spies despite the fact they've been here for over a decade.

No, no, don't you see. Obama has really been giving them cover (due to this socialist sympathies, you see) since they arrived. But his plan the whole time was to uncover them during his administration, so that he could look "tough" and hold off Republican criticism.

He must think we're really stupid! We won't be fooled by these cheap tricks! They probably already finished their mission anyway, and it was safe for Obama to out them.

/tin foil cap off

404 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:43:58am

Obama Administration Sided With Scott Brown On Wall Street Bill Loophole


As the final Wall Street negotiations came to a close last week, the Obama administration quietly sided with Sen. Scott Brown (R-MA) against most Democrats in support of a loophole in one of the key provisions of the financial reform bill.

Several Democratic Hill aides tell TPMDC that the Treasury Department, which wielded tremendous influence over the shape of the legislation, changed its position on the Volcker rule during the final deliberations, endorsing an exemption that will allow banks to invest in outside hedge funds.

405 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:44:46am

re: #399 Decatur Deb

Cool. I like Klinger a lot. He's an ex-police officer and tends to focus on the socially mediated aspect, rather than the simply 'internal' aspect, of police matters, which I feel gives a more complete picture.

The link from APSU functions more as a call for areas where we need more research than a review of the research, but in doing so provides a good framework for recognizing what the questions are.

406 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:44:56am

re: #388 lawhawk

New tactic to get elected discovered in NV.

Sharon Angle, the Tea Party/GOP candidate for US Senate has avoided doing any tv/radio interviews:

Now, why would she want to avoid the interviews? Could it be that when pressed, she'll fold like a house of cards?
It also shows a serious failing by media outlets to get her positions known to voters but now that the news is on why she keeps refusing interviews, it makes it seem like she has something to hide.

And she surely does.

Yes, where did Angle get the idea that this was a legitimate option or strategy?
Could it maybe be because it's Palin's strategy and the McCain caompaign signed off on that for her during the 2008 run?
Why yes, yes it could be.

This is not going to stop. More and more allegedly 'legitimate' candidates on the right (fringe) will simply emulate Palin.

407 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:46:33am

re: #379 Summer

Bookmarking for later (too much good stuff today). Scanning, I didn't see treatment of the "Republicans passed the Civil Rights Act" meme. I need to look at the way the parties have turned themselves inside-out on race since the Civil War. (A starfish inverting it's stomach comes to mind.)

408 Kruk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:50:26am

re: #393 Summer

My fovorite part:

"These leaders aren’t playing with fire to appease the masses any longer, they are setting the fire with flaming torches to disused rags that they have dug up from the past to try to gain power in the most horrific way."

We all know there are votes in this crap. Politicians who pander to bigotry are bad enough, but actually whipping it up? They're going to the Special Hell. (The one reserved for child abusers and people who talk in movie theatres.)

409 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:52:16am

re: #404 Killgore Trout

Ohhh boy. I have a small host of Dem friends that are going to get a link to this post. Unless you page it, in which case I'd link that. Some of them agree with me that the derivatives should be banned or added to on line poker. Remember big pharma? Our President moves right in all (well too many) of the wrong ways

410 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:52:36am

Damn.
I'm out.
Later!

411 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:54:00am

re: #398 Ericus58

I can not disagree with your post or position.
I just find myself rolling my eyes at the instant hand-wringing by some.

I'll grab D-Stars drums if you bring the flowers.

It isn't 'handwringing' or 'sympathy for the bad guy' to support trial, due process, and punishment. That's just being an american and endorsing the rule of law, and saying that our system is the best on earth and expressing full confidence that the guilty will be punished-- within our system. Like we're supposed to do. That's how we roll.

If that makes me a 'handwringer', run with it. I think it makes me an American.

412 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:54:35am

re: #409 Rightwingconspirator

Ohhh boy. I have a small host of Dem friends that are going to get a link to this post. Unless you page it, in which case I'd link that. Some of them agree with me that the derivatives should be banned or added to on line poker. Remember big pharma? Our President moves right in all (well too many) of the wrong ways

I didn't make a page out of it because I really don't have enough knowledge on the topic. I figure I'd leave it for someone who has an informed opinion.

413 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:56:17am

re: #409 Rightwingconspirator

Ohhh boy. I have a small host of Dem friends that are going to get a link to this post. Unless you page it, in which case I'd link that. Some of them agree with me that the derivatives should be banned or added to on line poker. Remember big pharma? Our President moves right in all (well too many) of the wrong ways

Hey!! He's one of those Tranzi Totalitarian Progressives. (Or is that a lame EuroVision Song competitor?)

414 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 6:56:42am

re: #393 Summer

I will just post the summation of my lengthy litany of Republican racist remarks in the last few weeks and months, and what it has led me to see:

I recommended it when you linked it. :) I think you should make a page about it too.

415 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:00:21am

re: #412 Killgore Trout

Meh.

To me, any financial regulation that is non-adaptive is going to fail. This set of regulations will fail; the algorithms that govern evolution govern economic systems as well. Over time, all regulations will be co-opted and circumvented if they are non-adaptive themselves. This set of regulations is non-adaptive, and so of very limited use; we basically need to refresh regulations ever four years or so to target whatever new scams the financial institutions have developed under that regulatory environment. I doubt we will have the political will or foresight to do such a thing.

No one particular loophole or regulation can perform that gigantic a function.

416 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:01:55am

I've always been of the thought that it's judicial activism when the judge rules in favor of something you dislike and strict constructionism when he rules in favor of something you like.

417 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:06:01am

Tampa Police Department released the names of the suspects they are looking for. Good. Making them toxic will make it harder for their friends to let them hide out.

418 Mocking Jay  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:07:37am

KT might enjoy this:
[Link: thecommonstudio.com...]

Made from a mixture of clay, compost, and seeds, "seedbombs" are becoming an increasingly popular means combating the many forgotten grey spaces we encounter everyday-from sidewalk cracks to vacant lots and parking medians. They can be thrown anonymously into these derelict urban sites to temporarily reclaim and transform them into places worth looking at and caring for. The Greenaid dispensary simply makes these guerilla gardening efforts more accessible to all by appropriating the existing distribution system of the quarter operated candy machine. Using just the loose coins in your pocket, you can make a small but meaningful contribution to the beautification of your city!
419 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:07:50am

We now have 11 people arrested as part of the Russian spy ring bust. 10 in the US and one in Cyprus. The Russians of course deny all this.

And what would a spy ring be without the femme fatale who is worthy of being straight of James Bond central casting - with a Masters degree and a model's physique.

420 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:10:37am

re: #416 HappyWarrior

I've always been of the thought that it's judicial activism when the judge rules in favor of something you dislike and strict constructionism when he rules in favor of something you like.

Pretty much. Cf the GOP:

Thurgood Marshall? Radical activist judge!11!

Roy Moore? Strict constructionalist! and PaTRiOT!

421 Mocking Jay  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:11:37am

re: #419 lawhawk

From the comments in the Post article...

Look what the Russians have done to Bensonhurst. They have turned it into a slum. Low class people and ALL of the woman look like 50 cent h**kers. Wouldn't trust a Russian as far as I could throw one.

Ah. Putting down an ethnic group is so in style these days.

422 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:11:38am

re: #419 lawhawk

We now have 11 people arrested as part of the Russian spy ring bust. 10 in the US and one in Cyprus. The Russians of course deny all this.

And what would a spy ring be without the femme fatale who is worthy of being straight of James Bond central casting - with a Masters degree and a model's physique.

What a cute little communist.

423 Ericus58  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:12:00am

re: #411 iceweasel

It isn't 'handwringing' or 'sympathy for the bad guy' to support trial, due process, and punishment. That's just being an american and endorsing the rule of law, and saying that our system is the best on earth and expressing full confidence that the guilty will be punished-- within our system. Like we're supposed to do. That's how we roll.

If that makes me a 'handwringer', run with it. I think it makes me an American.

Ice, perhaps you and I are not communicating on the same wave-length.
I said I agreed with you. You are not a hand-wringer.

Are you bringing the flowers or not?

424 darthstar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:12:05am

Okay, I've had a night to sleep on it and I'm still baffled as to why the GOP chose to attack a civil rights icon like Thurgood Marshall.

Mornin' everyone.

425 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:12:56am

Alex Jones is running circles around Opie and Anthony. They were not prepared at all for the interview and Alex is slaughtering them.

426 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:12:57am

bbiab

427 Kruk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:13:52am

re: #422 Killgore Trout

What a cute little communist.

I hear Communist orgies are great. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need...

428 darthstar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:14:45am

re: #425 Killgore Trout

Alex Jones is running circles around Opie and Anthony. They were not prepared at all for the interview and Alex is slaughtering them.

Who are Opie and Anthony and should I care?

429 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:14:50am

re: #424 darthstar

I'm baffled too- I'm not a fan of Marshall for his activism - and he sometimes saw his role as to promote outcomes favorable to right past wrongs, rather than base it on the law, but the guy was brilliant and a tremendous jurist.

The GOP can't directly attack Kagan because there's not much of a paper trail and what there is is insufficient to deny her a seat on the Court. So, they'll run with this nonsense. It's bad in the long run.

Moreover, it again highlights the dog and pony show of confirmations and that it really is about the Senators hearing themselves talk and preening before the cameras rather than getting to substantive points about the law and a nominee's capabilities to do the job.

430 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:15:48am

re: #425 Killgore Trout

Blithering idiots interviewing a sly crank. Yeah, that's great radio right there. /

431 Summer Seale  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:16:57am

re: #414 iceweasel

I recommended it when you linked it. :) I think you should make a page about it too.

Thank you and thank you to the others as well. =)

Wasn't sure how to make a page on here but I just looked it up and posted it. Thank you for mentioning that. I've never posted a page here before. Hope it's ok.

432 Big Steve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:17:23am

So.....in the have to laugh department, NPR had a story this morning about how all the people in Southern Louisianna are lining up to get their money from the government managed BP fund and guess what they were totally a cash business and had not been paying income taxes. So no W2's to prove their income. Now they want a "tax amnesty" so they can claim their BP money. I was glad to hear that the guy running the program for the government said that he is not empowered to do so and only Congress can do this. So I want to see our Congress get this through.

433 darthstar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:17:53am

re: #120 Cato the Elder

I mentioned that.

"Wrought into a machine."

And by the way, anyone who fails immediately to see the direct relation between Farsi "khod" and English "god" is hereby summarily, peremptorily, utterly, permanently, and without appeal ejected, banned, cast out, excommunicated and removed from the League of Linguistic Gentlemen.

Meh...I thought that's what you meant. Let's retroactively consider my reply an explanation for any who missed it.

Oh, and the English word for "god" is real...therein lies the difference. ///

434 Summer Seale  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:18:23am

I think I messed up posting it though....I posted the entire thing and now it's huge on the Pages page... =( Looking for a way to edit that.

435 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:18:25am

What amuses me is the contempt that these Senate Republicans claim to have for Ivy Leaguers and at the same time claim to be the heirs of the Founding Fathers. Many of whom were you know Ivy Leaguers. Not an Ivy League man myself but this counter-elitism for East coasters who go to good schools is just so stupid and pointless.

436 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:18:44am

re: #419 lawhawk

We now have 11 people arrested as part of the Russian spy ring bust. 10 in the US and one in Cyprus. The Russians of course deny all this.

And what would a spy ring be without the femme fatale who is worthy of being straight of James Bond central casting - with a Masters degree and a model's physique.

And a redhead!!!

437 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:19:58am

While Americans march against Arizona’s new restrictions on unlawful immigration, hundreds of illegal aliens from countries awash in Muslim terrorists tiptoe across the U.S.-Mexican frontier.

ho hum...Hezzbollah? here in the US?.....whatever

[Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

438 Ericus58  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:20:25am

re: #424 darthstar

Well that seals the deal - now you're up. Guess it's going to be a bit harder to grab those drums now.

439 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:20:43am

re: #436 Mad Al-Jaffee

And a redhead!!!

She could help you fix your bike.

440 Kruk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:20:54am

re: #435 HappyWarrior

What amuses me is the contempt that these Senate Republicans claim to have for Ivy Leaguers and at the same time claim to be the heirs of the Founding Fathers. Many of whom were you know Ivy Leaguers. Not an Ivy League man myself but this counter-elitism for East coasters who go to good schools is just so stupid and pointless.

Heh. It's classic sour grapes. If one can't get into an Ivy League school, the best way to make oneself feel better is to pretend an Ivy League education is worthless.

441 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:23:09am

The Palestinian Authority TV's weekly game show between competing Palestinian universities continues to deny Israel's existence through the questions posed to the quiz contestants.

Last week, three different questions and matching answers on The Stars all reflected a world view in which Israel does not exist.

One PA TV quiz answer taught that the length of "Palestine's" coast was 235 km. Gaza's coastline is only 45 km. long and Israel's Mediterranean coastline is approximately 190 km. long. Presenting "Palestine's" coast as 235 km. presents a world in which all of Israel is "Palestine."

Another quiz answer described the Israeli city of Nazareth as a "Palestinian city." A third answer taught that the size of "Palestine" was 27,000 sq. km. - an area that includes all of the State of Israel, as well as the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The West Bank and Gaza Strip comprise less than 7,000 sq. km.

PA TV is under the direct control of PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas's office.


SNIP

442 darthstar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:23:46am

re: #429 lawhawk

I'm baffled too- I'm not a fan of Marshall for his activism - and he sometimes saw his role as to promote outcomes favorable to right past wrongs, rather than base it on the law, but the guy was brilliant and a tremendous jurist.

The GOP can't directly attack Kagan because there's not much of a paper trail and what there is is insufficient to deny her a seat on the Court. So, they'll run with this nonsense. It's bad in the long run.

Moreover, it again highlights the dog and pony show of confirmations and that it really is about the Senators hearing themselves talk and preening before the cameras rather than getting to substantive points about the law and a nominee's capabilities to do the job.

The big question is "Why attack at all?" Because that's the way it's been done since the early 80s? American tradition? Just think about the points the GOP could have scored with the public if their prepared remarks were held simply about the importance of the position, maybe a couple of valid concerns, and there weren't 35 negative references to Marshall (compared with 14 for Obama). The Democrats would likely still have been prepared to go after the Roberts court, and would have looked petty by comparison. Lost opportunity for the GOP.

But they have to attack. Their base demands it. The hard-core base wants them to inflict as much damage on this administration and the Democrats as possible, regardless of the short or long term effects (not that anything in the public consciousness actually lasts more than a year anymore).

443 Summer Seale  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:24:41am

I fixed it on the pages thing. I just posted the end of it. I just felt that to make that statement, I had to quantify it with a litany of current events so as to justify that position.

Thanks again btw. Back to work for me.

444 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:25:14am

Support for President Obama is waning among America’s Jewish population, polls indicate, a shift driven primarily by the president’s policies toward Israel.
McLaughlin & Associates, a national polling company, recently released the “National Survey of Jewish Voters” which reported that while Jewish voters favored Obama 78 percent to 12 percent in the 2008 presidential exit polls, currently, “only 42 percent of voters would re-elect him, while the plurality (46 percent) would consider voting for someone else.”

Read more: [Link: dailycaller.com...]

445 darthstar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:25:31am

Here's a guide to the remaining Kagan smears we can expect over the next few days...my favorite is the one about Sharia law.

[Link: prospect.org...]

446 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:26:11am

re: #434 Summer

I think I messed up posting it though...I posted the entire thing and now it's huge on the Pages page... =( Looking for a way to edit that.

No prob- the little pencil icon (edit) will let you edit as needed. I always need it myself. :)

447 Kruk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:28:29am

re: #437 albusteve

While Americans march against Arizona’s new restrictions on unlawful immigration, hundreds of illegal aliens from countries awash in Muslim terrorists tiptoe across the U.S.-Mexican frontier.

ho hum...Hezzbollah? here in the US?...whatever

[Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

I'm convinced most problems can be traced to illegal aliens. Or Muslim terrorists. Or ACORN. Or ACORN getting Muslim terrorists across the border as illegal aliens. Or illegal aliens taking over ACORN to support Muslim terrorists. Or Muslim terrorists getting illegal aliens to inflitrate ACORN. Or ACORN training illegal aliens to be Muslim terrorists. Or...

448 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:28:50am

re: #442 darthstar

The base demands in on both sides of the aisle. The GOP thinks that they can score points with the base by going after judicial activists. The Democrats think they can score points by going after strict constructionists who want to overturn longstanding legal decisions like Roe.

I disagree about the points scored with the "public" because no one is keeping score except the partisans on both sides of the aisle - and they'll see it as missed opportunities rather than a clear departure from the rank partisanship and bile that usually emanates from such proceedings. Instead of raising the level of debate, they're keeping it right where it is.

Moreover, at the end of the day, the public will see Kagan confirmed - and even the final tally on her confirmation wont matter after it's done - except to those partisans who keep track of these things (to settle scores down the road).

449 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:29:09am
450 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:29:28am

re: #445 darthstar

Here's a guide to the remaining Kagan smears we can expect over the next few days...my favorite is the one about Sharia law.

[Link: prospect.org...]

I've learned to pay little attention...90% babble, and it ranks real low on my scale of importance

451 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:30:37am

re: #445 darthstar

Here's a guide to the remaining Kagan smears we can expect over the next few days...my favorite is the one about Sharia law.

[Link: prospect.org...]

Haha Jeff Sessions can't be serious about the Sharia Law can he. Seriously that guy is a loon.

452 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:31:57am

re: #447 Kruk

I'm convinced most problems can be traced to illegal aliens. Or Muslim terrorists. Or ACORN. Or ACORN getting Muslim terrorists across the border as illegal aliens. Or illegal aliens taking over ACORN to support Muslim terrorists. Or Muslim terrorists getting illegal aliens to inflitrate ACORN. Or ACORN training illegal aliens to be Muslim terrorists. Or...

then here's something that will interest you...
[Link: www.mediaite.com...]

453 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:32:07am

re: #439 Decatur Deb

She could help you fix your bike.

Is that what the kids are calling it these days?

454 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:32:21am

re: #451 HappyWarrior

Haha Jeff Sessions can't be serious about the Sharia Law can he. Seriously that guy is a loon.

Watch it, y'all. He's our second-smartest senator.

455 darthstar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:33:01am

re: #448 lawhawk

So what it all boils down to is this is a competition for TV time on the 24 hour news networks. I hope someone goes all Godwin on Kagan today...that always gets positive attention in the press (Given the belief that any attention at all being good attention). How will she respond to idiocy? Will she keep a straight face? It'll be a true test of her mettle. ;)

456 abolitionist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:33:24am

Good morning, all. This looks like very good news:
China, Taiwan sign trade pact linking economies

BEIJING – China and Taiwan signed a tariff-slashing trade pact Tuesday that boosts economic ties and further eases political tensions six decades after the rivals split amid civil war.

Beijing hopes the deal, signed live on on state television, can lead to political accommodation. Taiwan is looking for the tighter economic links to keep the island from being marginalized as China's global clout grows.
[snip]

457 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:34:29am

re: #448 lawhawk

The base demands in on both sides of the aisle. The GOP thinks that they can score points with the base by going after judicial activists. The Democrats think they can score points by going after strict constructionists who want to overturn longstanding legal decisions like Roe.

There are no struct constructionists that have been nominated to the court. Judicial activist is a pretty meaningless phrase.


I disagree about the points scored with the "public" because no one is keeping score except the partisans on both sides of the aisle - and they'll see it as missed opportunities rather than a clear departure from the rank partisanship and bile that usually emanates from such proceedings. Instead of raising the level of debate, they're keeping it right where it is.

The constant attack on a civil rights icon, when paired with the rest of the racism the GOP has been embracing recently, to me is a significant thing. You don't find any importance that they're attacking a civil rights icon at the same time that Rand Paul is making his odious comments on race and law?

458 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:34:46am

re: #455 darthstar

So what it all boils down to is this is a competition for TV time on the 24 hour news networks. I hope someone goes all Godwin on Kagan today...that always gets positive attention in the press (Given the belief that any attention at all being good attention). How will she respond to idiocy? Will she keep a straight face? It'll be a true test of her mettle. ;)

they should confirm her by noon today...forget all the pointless posturing

459 Kruk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:37:17am

Going to log off now, all. Stay scaly.

460 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:38:53am

re: #458 albusteve

they should confirm her by noon today...forget all the pointless posturing

As I posted yesterday:

Elena Kagan Asked Straight Up: 'You Got What It Takes?'
[Link: www.theonion.com...]

461 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:40:00am

re: #454 Decatur Deb

Watch it, y'all. He's our second-smartest senator.

My sympathies. We had George Allen for a term here.

462 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:40:35am

re: #456 abolitionist

Especially when paired with China floating the Yuan. China is making a bid to be the US's best friend right now.

[Link: moneywatch.bnet.com...]

It hurts US retailers a small amount, but it helps our exporters a lot. And it will help us recover lost manufacturing jobs over time, as well.

It also takes China another step towards a freer society.

463 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:41:31am

BBL

464 darthstar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:41:43am

re: #457 Obdicut

The constant attack on a civil rights icon, when paired with the rest of the racism the GOP has been embracing recently, to me is a significant thing. You don't find any importance that they're attacking a civil rights icon at the same time that Rand Paul is making his odious comments on race and law?

I don't think Lawhawk is arguing that. I do think that, aside from the political blog-world, MSNBC, FOX, and CNN viewers (we're talking maybe 2 or 3 per cent of the population), not a lot of people will pay attention to this. There's a world cup going on, it's summer time, baseball, kids going to camp...life. Anyone who is paying attention is shaking their head right now over yesterdays Thurgood whupping. Even Dana Milbank balked...when the Republicans are losing him, they're in trouble. What will be interesting to see is how many of their pundits completely ignore the attacks on Marshall (as they do RndPaul()'s calling for an end to the 14th Amendment).

465 Mocking Jay  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:43:28am

re: #460 Mad Al-Jaffee

I would watch Obama's weekly addresses if they were like this:

Obama's Weekly Video Addresses Becoming Increasingly Avant-Garde

466 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:45:32am

re: #465 JasonA

I would watch Obama's weekly addresses if they were like this:

Obama's Weekly Video Addresses Becoming Increasingly Avant-Garde

Haha I am watching hte video about Al Queda cancelling an attack on the Capitol because the Twilight author was there.

467 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:46:12am

re: #464 darthstar

I never understand what the 'most people aren't paying attention' argument means, though. Most people only pay vague attention to politics. So what?

It is still expressive of what the GOP is running on at the moment, what their current philosophy is. And it stinks.

I found objections to Roberts to be pretty silly, too; he's massively well-qualified, and the objections to him amounted to "but you're very conservative". But at least those weren't playing with race politics at the same time.

It's important to remember, I think, that Kagan is Jewish, and that Jews were very, very important during the civil rights period, as well.

468 abolitionist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:46:12am

re: #462 Obdicut

Especially when paired with China floating the Yuan. China is making a bid to be the US's best friend right now.

[Link: moneywatch.bnet.com...]

It hurts US retailers a small amount, but it helps our exporters a lot. And it will help us recover lost manufacturing jobs over time, as well.

It also takes China another step towards a freer society.

I agree with the spirit of your post, but this doesn't:
U.S. slaps duties on electric blankets from China
Excerpt:

U.S. manufacturers have won dozens of duties against Chinese competitors in recent years, straining trade ties.

China has accused the United States of protectionism in the cases, while U.S. officials say the duties are needed to protect vulnerable U.S. industries from unfair practices.

469 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:46:43am

re: #385 Romantic Heretic

I made good money betting on the Soviets.

Despite being Canadian I don't care much for hockey. My geography is pretty good though so I knew the USSR had ten times as many people as Canada and their winters are as long and cold as ours. They were bound to have at least a few good hockey players.

Plus every one was, "Oh yeah, we'll beat those fucking pansy commies."

So I bet on the Soviets, got odds too.

Does that make me an entrepreneur or a traitor? ;)

Neither. It makes you a pansy commie.
BTW: PAUL HENDERSON!

470 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:47:15am

Had it not been for opposing war, President Obama might never have catapulted to the White House.

It was taken for granted in the run-up to the presidential campaign of 2008 that candidate Obama had principled objections to the war in Iraq. He was the left's champion against Sen. Hillary Clinton, who had, along with 29 of the then 50 Democratic senators, voted in favor of the Iraq War resolution. That vote was to dog her throughout the Democratic primaries.

Though Obama was only a state legislator in 2002, he gave a highly partisan anti-war speech that improved his standing with the left wing of the Democratic Party. "What I am opposed to," he declaimed, "is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income, to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression." When the war began to go badly in 2006 and 2007, Obama was hailed as prescient.

After winning the nomination, Obama reiterated his opposition to the war in Iraq, which he claimed had been poorly led, unnecessary, badly motivated, and doomed to failure.

In a March 2007 Senate floor speech, Sen. Obama recited the leftist litany about Iraq. It was folly, he argued, to "go it alone" — overlooking the fact that 27 nations participated in the coalition to remove Saddam Hussein. Obama repeated the common liberal trope of the time that only a political settlement would end the violence. "There is no military solution to this war," he pronounced.

When President Bush announced the troop surge in January 2007, Obama opposed it, saying, "I am not persuaded that 20,000 additional troops in Iraq are going to solve the sectarian violence there. In fact, I think it will do the reverse." Even a year later, when evidence mounted that the surge was working, Obama continued to push for retreat ("phased redeployment") because "I don't think the president's strategy is going to work."

Only in mid-July of 2008 did the Obama campaign scrub criticism of the surge from its website.

By turning to the architect of the Iraq surge, Gen. David Petraeus, to save the war in Afghanistan, President Obama is acknowledging, if only implicitly, that he was quite wrong about the Iraq surge and that Bush was right.

SNIP

471 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:47:46am

re: #468 abolitionist

That sort of protectionism is what China is seeking to end by floating the yuan. It will take some time.

472 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:47:50am

Reporting from Baghdad —
Mohammad and his gang are back. There may not be a Glock semiautomatic strapped to his waist anymore, but the terrifying mystique of the Mahdi Army still shrouds the Shiite Muslim militiaman like the menacing black uniform he once wore.

I hope the Iraqis pounce on this guy and bring down his autonomous little hood....we had him in our sights a couple of times and let him off

[Link: www.latimes.com...]

473 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:51:09am

re: #470 MandyManners

Had it not been for opposing war, President Obama might never have catapulted to the White House.

In a March 2007 Senate floor speech, Sen. Obama recited the leftist litany about Iraq. It was folly, he argued, to "go it alone" — overlooking the fact that 27 nations participated in the coalition to remove Saddam Hussein. Obama repeated the common liberal trope of the time that only a political settlement would end the violence. "There is no military solution to this war," he pronounced.

whoops!...rookie mistake?...I don't think so

474 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:51:55am

re: #470 MandyManners

Do you realize that's the site that provides Michelle Malkin's and Pat BUchanan's writings to White Nationalist site VDARE? They also handle such luminary geniuses as Chuck Norris.

475 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:51:57am

re: #470 MandyManners

Had it not been for opposing war, President Obama might never have catapulted to the White House.

He was against it before he pretended to be for it.
Everything Obama ends up doing or saying is cynically calculated to enhance his political fortunes.

476 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:54:41am

As his confirmation process to head troops in Afghanistan begins Tuesday, Gen. David Petraeus is expected to face blunt questions from conservatives uneasy about the course of the war and from liberals who feel betrayed by the administration's expansion of the conflict.

Democrats may be asking some of the toughest questions of Petraeus, including whether he intends to hold to the Obama administration's timetable of beginning withdrawal from Afghanistan in July 2011. It has been an open secret among top military commanders that the deadline was impractical and was helping the Taliban in its tactics against NATO, sources said.

thus wasting American lives

Read more at the Washington Examiner: [Link: www.washingtonexaminer.com...]

477 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:54:45am

re: #457 Obdicut

You might like to believe that strict constructionist and judicial activists are meaningless phrases - but they are ways in which legal decisions are considered and judicial philosophies are explained and analyzed. To say otherwise ignores jurisprudence.

As Darthstar noted in 464 above, the confirmation hearings is a sideshow that happens in the middle of the summer, during the worst environmental disaster in US history (and still ongoing), during the World Cup this year no less, and the amount of focus on the hearings is quite limited. People will pay only a cursory look at it and see whether she's confirmed or not. People are not looking at the minutae of what the Senators are saying, let alone what Kagan will say. A few clips may make the evening news - but people just aren't focusing on it.

Kagan clerked for Marshall. Marshall engaged in a judicial philosophy that allowed outcomes to predicate his decisions. That's a legitimate question for Kagan to deal with - the court should be determining outcomes based on the law - not going in reverse order. So, it's not attacking a civil rights icon, but trying to determine what Kagan's judicial philosophy is and whether it can be differentiated from that of the Supreme Court justice for which she clerked.

478 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:55:12am

re: #470 MandyManners

Mornin' Mandy
Yesterday you asked me about flowers etc at our place. I had just left for work. Anyway the deal is a new policy of allowing no personal property visible from the common areas. Nothing. Not even window treatments for energy savings. "Nothing can be on the deck". Right down to the doormat.

479 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:56:27am

re: #475 Spare O'Lake

He was against it before he pretended to be for it.
Everything Obama ends up doing or saying is cynically calculated to enhance his political fortunes.

even as a successful surge was winding down BO denied it on the campaign trail...holy socks

480 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:56:59am

re: #448 lawhawk

I just want to note that the phrase "judicial activism" is utterly meaningless, and little more than a talking point.

481 darthstar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:58:56am

re: #476 albusteve

MOONIE TIMES!!! You're funny.

482 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 7:59:56am

Dave Weigel Joins MSNBC As Paid Contributor

So, the Washington Post Company drops Weigel last week – some would say prematurely – and NBCU scoops him up a few days later. Mediaite has confirmed from MSNBC that Weigel’s role will be both paid and exclusive to the network. It’s likely, then that we’ll see Weigel show up on other non-Countdown programs on MSNBC as well.

Looks like a step up to me. TV money is almost certainly better than newspaper money.

483 Ericus58  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:00:35am

re: #475 Spare O'Lake

He was against it before he pretended to be for it.
Everything Obama ends up doing or saying is cynically calculated to enhance his political fortunes.

That could apply to most politicians across the board.
However, I think he is listening to some counter-points to his earlier positions now that he has the mantle of responsibility to wear.
Of that, I'm thankful.

484 darthstar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:01:04am

re: #478 Rightwingconspirator

Mornin' Mandy
Yesterday you asked me about flowers etc at our place. I had just left for work. Anyway the deal is a new policy of allowing no personal property visible from the common areas. Nothing. Not even window treatments for energy savings. "Nothing can be on the deck". Right down to the doormat.

You moved into San Quentin? Please tell me this wasn't an HOA decision to deal with one person's tacky taste in decor.

485 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:01:21am

re: #474 Killgore Trout

Do you really want to piss off Chuck Norris?

486 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:01:35am

The federal government will deploy 524 National Guard troops to the Arizona-Mexico border by late August, according to representatives from President Barack Obama's administration.

The president has previously said that he plans to send 1,200 National Guard troops to the U.S./Mexico border; in addition he has requested $600 million from Congress to pay for 1,000 more border patrol agents, 160 federal immigration officers and unmanned surveillance aircraft known as drones.

no word on when congress will vote on the funds...other stuff is more pressing, vacation plans etc

Read more: [Link: www.azcentral.com...]

487 darthstar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:01:38am

re: #482 Killgore Trout

Dave Weigel Joins MSNBC As Paid Contributor

Looks like a step up to me. TV money is almost certainly better than newspaper money.

I saw him on Olbermann last night and thought, Well, he certainly landed on his feet.

488 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:02:35am

re: #485 Spare O'Lake

Do you really want to piss off Chuck Norris?

He's a joke.

489 darthstar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:03:15am

re: #488 Killgore Trout

He's a joke.

with a Bible.

490 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:04:05am

Norris is Nuts. Sadly.

491 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:04:30am

re: #480 Fozzie Bear

I just want to note that the phrase "judicial activism" is utterly meaningless, and little more than a talking point.

It may be utterly meaningless to you, but that doesn't mean squat to anyone else, especially since it is commonly used as a counterpoint to "strict constructionism".

492 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:04:33am

re: #481 darthstar

MOONIE TIMES!!! You're funny.

so what's your point?....got something against Sarah Carter?

493 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:04:40am

re: #477 lawhawk

You might like to believe that strict constructionist and judicial activists are meaningless phrases - but they are ways in which legal decisions are considered and judicial philosophies are explained and analyzed. To say otherwise ignores jurisprudence.

No, it doesn't. Strict constructionist is not an animal that exists, at least on the supreme court. All the justices have made rulings that depart from any sort of strict constructionist view of the constitution. Likewise, all have ruled in ways that could be called 'judicial activism'. The constitution was imperfect and in tension from the start, easily viewable in the 3/5ths compromise; it was never intended as the perfect framework, but a piece of politics in its own right. A real strict constructionist would be at odds with himself-- someone like Rand Paul.


As Darthstar noted in 464 above, the confirmation hearings is a sideshow that happens in the middle of the summer, during the worst environmental disaster in US history (and still ongoing), during the World Cup this year no less, and the amount of focus on the hearings is quite limited. People will pay only a cursory look at it and see whether she's confirmed or not. People are not looking at the minutae of what the Senators are saying, let alone what Kagan will say. A few clips may make the evening news - but people just aren't focusing on it.

Kagan clerked for Marshall. Marshall engaged in a judicial philosophy that allowed outcomes to predicate his decisions.

All justices have done so. Scalia, for example, in his rulings on torture and detention, has referenced outcomes frequently.

That's a legitimate question for Kagan to deal with - the court should be determining outcomes based on the law - not going in reverse order.

All justices deal with the interaction of law with the real world. " Separate but Equal" was struck down because of its very real outcomes.

So, it's not attacking a civil rights icon, but trying to determine what Kagan's judicial philosophy is and whether it can be differentiated from that of the Supreme Court justice for which she clerked.

It is very clearly attacking a civil rights icon. I am surprised to see you ignoring this.

Take this statement by Steele:

Given Kagan’s opposition to allowing military recruiters access to her law school’s campus, her endorsement of the liberal agenda and her support for statements [made by Marshall] suggesting that the Constitution ‘as originally drafted and conceived,’ was ‘defective,’ you can expect Senate Republicans to respectfully raise serious and tough questions to ensure the American people can thoroughly and thoughtfully examine Kagan’s qualifications and legal philosophy before she is confirmed to a lifetime appointment,”

The original constitution was defective. It allowed slavery. That was Marshall's meaning when he said it, and for the GOP to ignore that in order to attack Marshall and Kagan is disingenuous in the extreme.

494 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:04:56am

re: #470 MandyManners

More bullshit from another hater-site posted by you in the AM thread.
You'll link anything from anywhere if it's sufficiently nasty to Obama or SOrOs!1!

495 Ericus58  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:06:51am

Those crazy Greeks... trying to ham-string their tourist industry again this week. I'm sure this will entice foreign investment and business.

Here's a snapshot of those brave folks for the common guy on the street.... as long as you're a Communist:

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

496 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:07:02am

re: #491 Spare O'Lake

It may be utterly meaningless to you, but that doesn't mean squat to anyone else, especially since it is commonly used as a counterpoint to "strict constructionism".

It's a fantasy talking point constructed by wingers who imagine a court that never existed.

497 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:07:34am

Dow -231
/Ouch!

498 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:09:45am

re: #497 Killgore Trout

The immediate initial effects of the Yuan floating are going to depress the economy, by the way, until our exporters start hitting the China market hard enough. The retailers are going to suffer; this may last all the way through the Christmas season. However, it is very good long-term.

I'm not saying this immediate dip is because of that.

499 darthstar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:09:55am

re: #492 albusteve

so what's your point?...got something against Sarah Carter?

Heh...I read that as Washington Times. So I guess this is me right now.

500 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:10:27am

re: #483 Ericus58

That could apply to most politicians across the board.
However, I think he is listening to some counter-points to his earlier positions now that he has the mantle of responsibility to wear.
Of that, I'm thankful.

I'm thankful too - for the moment. But the problem is, he'll reverse course again in a second if he thinks it will help to get him re-elected.
A political chameleon, pure and simple.

501 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:12:58am

re: #494 iceweasel

More bullshit from another hater-site posted by you in the AM thread.
You'll link anything from anywhere if it's sufficiently nasty to Obama or SOrOs!1!

I see no hate in that snip, what part is bullshit?

502 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:14:10am

re: #489 darthstar

re: #489 darthstar

re: #490 Fozzie Bear

Someone piss in your cheerios this morning? It was a joke!

503 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:15:25am

re: #502 Spare O'Lake

re: #489 darthstar

re: #490 Fozzie Bear

Someone piss in your cheerios this morning? It was a joke!

It was Wheaties. And they did taste a little funny....

504 darthstar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:15:35am

re: #502 Spare O'Lake

re: #489 darthstar

re: #490 Fozzie Bear

Someone piss in your cheerios this morning? It was a joke!

So is Chuck Norris.

505 Ericus58  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:15:40am

re: #494 iceweasel

More bullshit from another hater-site posted by you in the AM thread.
You'll link anything from anywhere if it's sufficiently nasty to Obama or SOrOs!1!

Are you saying the points in Mona's piece are not factual in regards to the positions and opinions Obama has stated in the past?

506 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:18:45am

re: #505 Ericus58

I think the objection is that that article says more about the author than it does about Obama.

507 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:20:44am

re: #494 iceweasel

More bullshit from another hater-site posted by you in the AM thread.
You'll link anything from anywhere if it's sufficiently nasty to Obama or SOrOs!1!

Nothing fascist or racist about the linked article itself IMO, although the site itself certainly has some very bad Authors listed.

508 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:22:07am

re: #474 Killgore Trout

Do you realize that's the site that provides Michelle Malkin's and Pat BUchanan's writings to White Nationalist site VDARE? They also handle such luminary geniuses as Chuck Norris.

And, Hillary Clinton, Susan Estrich, Oliver North, John Stossel and Roger Simon.

509 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:23:11am

re: #393 Summer

Nail on the head. Excellent post.

510 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:23:40am

re: #478 Rightwingconspirator

Mornin' Mandy
Yesterday you asked me about flowers etc at our place. I had just left for work. Anyway the deal is a new policy of allowing no personal property visible from the common areas. Nothing. Not even window treatments for energy savings. "Nothing can be on the deck". Right down to the doormat.

Worse then any HOA I've ever dealt with.

511 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:23:41am

re: #505 Ericus58

My issue with the article itself is the spin. I don't think a pro Iraq war Dem could have gotten the nomination. Pretty much all the Dem candidates campaigned on Iraq being a failure. After the surge Bush robbed the dems of their hoped for failure in Iraq. That should have been a problem for the Dems but having Palin on the Republican ticket ended up counteracting that. We should be glad that Obama chose to responsibly wind down the war in Iraq instead of keeping his campaign promise for an immediate and disastrous withdrawal.
I really don't see this as reflecting poorly on Obama.

512 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:23:42am

Too tired of the hate links and the AM Wingnut Wave every morning and the rampant ODS. I guess the haters always do this when they think Charles isn't around.

Later folks. Not a flounce, just coming back later when the grownups are here and I don't have to see such shit on the threads or deal with it. Thank god and Charles for the page system. Maybe some of the AM Wingnut Wave should start using it more.

513 Ericus58  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:23:47am

re: #506 Fozzie Bear

I think the objection is that that article says more about the author than it does about Obama.

you are talking in riddles now.....

514 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:24:25am

re: #508 MandyManners

I hear stormfront reposted an essay by William F Buckley once. That makes them totally mainstream, right?

515 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:25:31am

re: #512 iceweasel

Too tired of the hate links and the AM Wingnut Wave every morning and the rampant ODS. I guess the haters always do this when they think Charles isn't around.

Later folks. Not a flounce, just coming back later when the grownups are here and I don't have to see such shit on the threads or deal with it. Thank god and Charles for the page system. Maybe some of the AM Wingnut Wave should start using it more.

is that supposed to be an insult?

516 Ericus58  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:27:15am

re: #512 iceweasel

Totally off the mark, Ice.
I call Bullshit on your Outrage.

517 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:28:15am

re: #513 Ericus58

you are talking in riddles now...

When an article says that Obama "recited a leftist litany", you can be sure you are reading the unhinged rantings of someone suffering from stage 4 terminal ODS.

518 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:28:54am

The ODS is strong with this thread.

519 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:29:47am

re: #516 Ericus58

It happens on a regular basis. Mandy comes on, posts something and Ice goes ballistic. It's gotten to the point I just scroll over her posts.

520 Ericus58  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:30:18am

re: #511 Killgore Trout

My issue with the article itself is the spin. I don't think a pro Iraq war Dem could have gotten the nomination. Pretty much all the Dem candidates campaigned on Iraq being a failure. After the surge Bush robbed the dems of their hoped for failure in Iraq. That should have been a problem for the Dems but having Palin on the Republican ticket ended up counteracting that. We should be glad that Obama chose to responsibly wind down the war in Iraq instead of keeping his campaign promise for an immediate and disastrous withdrawal.
I really don't see this as reflecting poorly on Obama.

I think it shows a bit poorly, yes.
He was someone with no Military or Foreign relations experience, taking positions that have indeed been shown to be wrong.
Same as Palin.

And yes, Bush did rob the Dem's of their failure.

521 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:30:37am

KABUL (AFP) – The death toll for foreign soldiers in Afghanistan neared the grim milestone of 100 for June alone Monday as the CIA chief warned the anti-Taliban war would be tougher and longer than expected.

more troops, more targets....I sure hope there is something to show for it

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

522 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:30:41am

re: #518 Varek Raith

The ODS is strong with this thread.

It always is in the morning, and I haven't the faintest idea what the connection between early mornings and ODS is.

523 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:31:27am

re: #512 iceweasel

Too tired of the hate links and the AM Wingnut Wave every morning and the rampant ODS. I guess the haters always do this when they think Charles isn't around.

Later folks. Not a flounce, just coming back later when the grownups are here and I don't have to see such shit on the threads or deal with it. Thank god and Charles for the page system. Maybe some of the AM Wingnut Wave should start using it more.

Why are you always bitching and moaning about what people choose to post here? I really don't think people here change their views or their associations depending on the time of day. Everyone is welcome on all threads at all times as far as I am concerned, and I resent your attempts to paint sub-groups into corners here.

524 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:32:53am

Ex-spy: May be 50 undercover Russian couples in US

MOSCOW — One of the Cold War's most famous defectors says Russia may have as many as 50 deep-cover couples spying inside the United States.

525 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:33:07am

re: #522 Fozzie Bear

It always is in the morning, and I haven't the faintest idea what the connection between early mornings and ODS is.

I see you never comment or rarely dispute any posts about BO...yet you fall back to RODS...typical, but you should speak up more on these issues, rather than condemn the poster

526 ReamWorks SKG  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:34:03am

Today is a "minor fast day". The 17th of Tammuz, commemorating the time when the wall was breached in Jerusalem, leading to the destruction of the 2nd temple.

So for those of you fasting, have an easy fast!

527 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:34:15am

re: #498 Obdicut

The immediate initial effects of the Yuan floating are going to depress the economy, by the way, until our exporters start hitting the China market hard enough. The retailers are going to suffer; this may last all the way through the Christmas season. However, it is very good long-term.

I'm not saying this immediate dip is because of that.

agree

528 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:35:27am

Damn Progs.
/

529 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:35:28am

re: #525 albusteve

Morning Steve. What does RODS mean? Don't recall seeing it before.

530 Ericus58  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:35:41am

re: #519 Bubblehead II

It happens on a regular basis. Mandy comes on, posts something and Ice goes ballistic. It's gotten to the point I just scroll over her posts.

Ya know, I have nothing against Ice. Truly, I enjoy the times we discuss stuff and I do read her posts. I've updinged without reservation at times.

But that was a slap at not just Mandy, but many others and it was uncalled for.

531 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:35:55am

re: #529 Bubblehead II

Morning Steve. What does RODS mean? Don't recall seeing it before.

Republicans of Delusional Stature?

532 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:35:55am

re: #529 Bubblehead II

Morning Steve. What does RODS mean? Don't recall seeing it before.

Reverse Obama Derangement Syndrome.

533 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:36:43am

re: #532 Varek Raith

Reverse Obama Derangement Syndrome.

Is that really what that means? Hahahahahaha

534 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:37:01am

re: #528 Varek Raith

Damn Progs.
/

I had a pet frog once, but then it croaked.

535 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:37:34am

re: #534 Spare O'Lake

I had a pet frog once, but then it croaked.

Damn.
I got no comeback to that.
:)

536 Ericus58  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:37:47am

re: #522 Fozzie Bear

It always is in the morning, and I haven't the faintest idea what the connection between early mornings and ODS is.

I think I liked you better when you first came on and talked like the hand-puppet instead of engaging in the baiting.

537 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:38:14am

re: #532 Varek Raith

Something like infatuation then?

538 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:38:17am

re: #526 reuven

Today is a "minor fast day". The 17th of Tammuz, commemorating the time when the wall was breached in Jerusalem, leading to the destruction of the 2nd temple.

So for those of you fasting, have an easy fast!

Why is it called a fast, when it goes so slow?

539 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:38:28am

Palestinians ban Israeli goods

The so-called "Shop-to-Shop" campaign is part of a months-old boycott that has seen the Western-backed Palestinian Authority impose fines and even jail sentences on merchants who trade in settlement goods.

The house-to-house campaign has infuriated the settlers, who have referred to it as "an act of terrorism" and called for sanctions against the West Bank economy, which grew at a rate of 8.5% last year.

[Link: www.news24.com...]

540 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:38:31am

re: #537 Bubblehead II

Something like infatuation then?

Yes.

541 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:38:59am

re: #493 Obdicut

Surely one can strongly disagree with Marshall's philosophy that “you do what you think is right and let the law catch up” and be thankful that what he thought was right, on balance, was better for the nation.

Or do you really want SCOTUS justices who do what they think is right and let the law catch up?

542 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:39:30am

re: #529 Bubblehead II

Morning Steve. What does RODS mean? Don't recall seeing it before.

Reverse ODS...I made it up

543 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:39:39am

re: #389 Joo-LiZ

One of the Cold War's most famous defectors says Russia may have as many as 50 deep-cover couples spying inside the United States.

Oleg Gordievsky, a former deputy head of the KGB in London who defected in 1985, said Russian President Dmitry Medvedev would know the number of illegal operatives in each target country.

The 71-year-old ex-double agent told the Associated Press on Tuesday that, based on his experience in Russian intelligence, he estimates that Moscow likely has 40 to 50 couples operating under cover in the U.S.

"For the KGB, there's usually 40 to 50 couples, all illegal," said Gordievsky, who defected to Britain after supplying information during the Cold War to the U.K.'s MI6 overseas spy agency.

SNIP

544 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:41:33am

re: #536 Ericus58

I think I liked you better when you first came on and talked like the hand-puppet instead of engaging in the baiting.

I definitely like it better during midday into the afternoon.

I'm not baiting anyone. There is alot of rather delusional thinking here in the morning.

545 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:42:42am


Sympathy for the Turkish devil
By Spengler

The American commentariat is shocked, shocked , to discover that Turkey has abandoned the Western alliance for an adventurous bid to become the dominant Muslim power in the Middle East. Tom Friedman of the New York Times suggested on June 15 that "President [Barack] Obama should invite him for a weekend at Camp David to clear the air before US-Turkey relations get where they’re going - over a cliff." Friedman blames the European Community for rejecting Turkey's membership bid which, he says, was a "key factor prompting Turkey to move closer to Iran and the Arab world".

gotta love the header

[Link: www.atimes.com...]

546 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:43:09am

re: #544 Fozzie Bear

I definitely like it better during midday into the afternoon.

I'm not baiting anyone. There is alot of rather delusional thinking here in the morning.

You say that now, but just you wait!
My Clone Sith Vampire Demon Army is almost complete.

547 ReamWorks SKG  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:43:10am

re: #543 MandyManners

This is an amazing story! I just didn't expect there to be a well organized spy effort that tried to place people within our Government....

548 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:43:21am

re: #544 Fozzie Bear

I definitely like it better during midday into the afternoon.

I'm not baiting anyone. There is alot of rather delusional thinking here in the morning.

give us a couple of examples of the delusion here

549 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:43:44am

re: #547 reuven

This is an amazing story! I just didn't expect there to be a well organized spy effort that tried to place people within our Government...

It's how the game is played.

550 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:43:49am

re: #542 albusteve

Cool.

551 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:44:50am

re: #535 Varek Raith

Damn.
I got no comeback to that.
:)

You're not going to hop to posting a pun?

552 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:45:18am

re: #551 Mad Al-Jaffee

You're not going to hop to posting a pun?

I suck at word games.

553 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:45:44am

re: #541 Aceofwhat?

Surely one can strongly disagree with Marshall's philosophy that “you do what you think is right and let the law catch up” and be thankful that what he thought was right, on balance, was better for the nation.

Or do you really want SCOTUS justices who do what they think is right and let the law catch up?

That was a rejoinder to a question, not a long-thought out answer to what his judicial 'philosophy' is. Yes, I do believe that Supreme Court justices, whether or not they admit it, are doing what they believe is right in their interpretations of law. As I've shown above, they all consider consequences, the living law, and I'm glad they do. A nation of laws without observation of the results of those laws would be a cruel place indeed.

There are many times when the law is vastly, grossly against all human decency and the spirit enshrined in the Constitution, the goals that it clearly has despite the politics of the time.

Do you think Marshall was a bad justice?

554 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:46:27am
555 The Left  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:47:22am

re: #515 albusteve

re: #523 Spare O'Lake

Liars and haters.

re: #530 Ericus58


But that was a slap at not just Mandy, but many others and it was uncalled for.

Rubbish.

re: #522 Fozzie Bear

It always is in the morning, and I haven't the faintest idea what the connection between early mornings and ODS is.

It's pretty obvious.
1.
and
2.

Later.

556 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:47:34am

re: #554 Spare O'Lake

The mother ship has left you behind, but do not worry, it will return for you in the afternoon.

I DON'T DO RETURN TRIPS!
DO YOU KNOW HOW EXPENSIVE ANTIMATTER IS?!?!
Hmpf, Humans...

557 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:47:34am
558 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:48:15am

re: #551 Mad Al-Jaffee

You're not going to hop to posting a pun?

She's a bit green at it.

559 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:48:19am

re: #553 Obdicut

That was a rejoinder to a question, not a long-thought out answer to what his judicial 'philosophy' is. Yes, I do believe that Supreme Court justices, whether or not they admit it, are doing what they believe is right in their interpretations of law. As I've shown above, they all consider consequences, the living law, and I'm glad they do. A nation of laws without observation of the results of those laws would be a cruel place indeed.

There are many times when the law is vastly, grossly against all human decency and the spirit enshrined in the Constitution, the goals that it clearly has despite the politics of the time.

Do you think Marshall was a bad justice?

Ok, i agree that i jumped on a rejoinder, thank you for resetting the context.

I think that Marshall ended up being a good justice on the whole. I think that his philosophy is dangerous, and that we were extremly lucky. I have no desire to nominate another justice who believes that we should do what we "feel" is right and let the law catch up.

I elect people to do what I feel is right, and I expect the justices to enforce it with an eye on constitutionality.

560 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:49:14am

re: #558 Spare O'Lake

She's a bit green at it.

:P

561 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:50:21am

re: #559 Aceofwhat?

I do not think you are treating Marshall's judicial experience, record, his work as a civil rights lawyer, or anything about him seriously when you return to the one comment as a summation of his philosophy.

Do you feel that Marshall simply ignored constitutionality?

Is there any reason you changed Marshall's word 'think' to the word 'feel' in this last post? Do you realize you did that?

562 Ericus58  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:50:34am

re: #544 Fozzie Bear

I definitely like it better during midday into the afternoon.

I'm not baiting anyone. There is alot of rather delusional thinking here in the morning.

If you and I hold a similar opinion in the afternoon but we had counter-opinions in the morning... would I still be considered delusional?

C'mon, I think very few of the posters here have similar opinions across all subjects - there will be differences.
The meme about the AM crowd being Wingnuts and delusional is getting a bit boring... and petty.

563 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:50:49am

Morning... ok, my "weekend" is here... have three days off, but do have some programming to do from home for Kaiser, so, will be in/out of here off and on.

What's the outrage of the day... can't miss that :)

564 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:50:52am

They have fought the British government against discrimination in their pay, war-time compensation for being taken prisoner by the Japanese during World War II, and the right to claim the UK as their home. However, Nepal's famed Gurkha soldiers will not have to fight a new battle against the new David Cameron government as Britain said they will not be affected by changes in the immigration policy that is expected to slash the number of non-European migrants drastically.

SNIP

The new campaign, bolstered by British actor Joanna Lumley, will now enable any Gurkha soldier who has served for four years to apply for resettlement in the UK. And this policy will not change though the increased number of migrants is expected to put considerable care on England's healthcare system and other public assistance funds.

Absolutely fabulous!!

565 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:52:02am

re: #562 Ericus58

Please do note the two posts by Charles that Ice cited in her #555.

Here is one in full, by Charles:

Mornings seem to be the time when the hard core right wingers try to drive out the more liberal people from LGF, by making insulting, degrading comments.

Note: I don't feel this has really happened this morning, as there's been a dearth of the use of the word 'prog' as an insult applied to liberals in general.

566 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:52:12am

re: #547 reuven

This is an amazing story! I just didn't expect there to be a well organized spy effort that tried to place people within our Government...

Why not?

567 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:52:32am

re: #558 Spare O'Lake

She's a bit green at it.

I'm going to barbecue this weekend. Maybe if I give her a rib it would help.

568 BLBfootballs  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:52:34am

I guess it's just me (...???) but I don't see why criticism of Justice Marshall's judicial philosophy/practice equates to racism.

The man is indeed celebrated and revered by many.... but that isn't a verdict on the quality of his philosophical/ideological beliefs.

He was a strong supporter of abortion rights and was against the existence of a death penalty....surely those are issues where one can disagree with him without needing to invoke "race" as a motive.

569 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:53:03am

re: #555 iceweasel

re: #523 Spare O'Lake

Liars and haters.

re: #530 Ericus58

It's pretty obvious.
1.
and
2.

Later.

as for me, I have not insulted anybody or degraded anybody...how did you come to call a liar and hater?

570 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:53:09am

re: #554 Spare O'Lake

The mother ship has left you behind, but do not worry, it will return for you in the afternoon.

I've been standing here with my sub-ether Sense-O-Matic, but I think the mothership is running late.

571 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:53:51am

re: #570 Fozzie Bear

I've been standing here with my sub-ether Sense-O-Matic, but I think the mothership is running late.

Yeah, because you don't pay for your share of the fuel!

572 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:55:20am

re: #570 Fozzie Bear

No wonder, dude. The sub-ether one only picks up those tight-asses in the Federation. You need a Sub-Etha one if you're going to pick up the froody rides.

573 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:56:17am

re: #560 Varek Raith

:P

Heh...you flicked your tongue, didn't you? Now THAT'S taking the frog puns to a new level.

574 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:56:27am

some clarity regarding Byrds senate seat...

Already, there are grumblings of a potential conflict over the fate of the seat. Democrats, obviously, would prefer the eventual appointee to fill out Byrd’s term and run for election in 2012 when the political climate could be more favorable.
However, questions are being raised about West Virginia election law and whether it could be interpreted to call for a special election to be held this November—in an electoral climate favorable to the GOP in a state with conservative leanings.

[Link: blogs.wsj.com...]

575 ReamWorks SKG  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:56:43am

re: #565 Obdicut

I wonder if this phenomenon is caused by the fact that liberals sleep in, leaving the forum more open for conservatives--who no doubt wake up early to run their businesses and be productive.

///

576 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:58:06am
577 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:58:21am

re: #575 reuven

I'm normally here in the morning, but that's going to change as I move to the East Coast and my reality shifts three hours later.

Most social patterns are emergent and not dependent on some sort of outside variable; the old saw that birds of a feather flock together is still generally true, even on as diverse a place as this one.

578 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 8:59:09am

re: #573 Spare O'Lake

Heh...you flicked your tongue, didn't you? Now THAT'S taking the frog puns to a new level.

I think this would be more appropriate:

:~~~~~p

579 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:00:05am

re: #575 reuven

I wonder if this phenomenon is caused by the fact that liberals sleep in, leaving the forum more open for conservatives--who no doubt wake up early to run their businesses and be productive.

///

It's because all the liberals are on the Left Coast and a few time zones behind...

///

580 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:00:29am

The continued power struggle between Hamas and Fatah has left tens of thousands of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip in the dark following the closure of the area’s main power plant.
The power plant, which supplies 25% of electricity to the Gaza Strip, was shut down on Friday night because of a dispute between the rival Palestinian parties over payment for fuel that is needed to keep it running.

intercine spatfare...

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

581 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:00:45am

Frogger!
[Link: www.happyhopper.org...]

582 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:01:55am

re: #576 Spare O'Lake

And she just ignores me. Should I be insulted or wounded?

583 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:04:03am

re: #577 Obdicut

I'm normally here in the morning, but that's going to change as I move to the East Coast and my reality shifts three hours later.

Most social patterns are emergent and not dependent on some sort of outside variable; the old saw that birds of a feather flock together is still generally true, even on as diverse a place as this one.

By the way... congrats... I've been off and on here and I missed the chance to say that...

584 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:04:07am

re: #582 Bubblehead II

And she just ignores me. Should I be insulted or wounded?

I guess you're the Rodney Dangerfield of AM blogging.

585 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:04:13am

re: #581 Varek Raith

"Kramer, listen to me. I'm never gonna have a child. If I lose this Frogger high score, that's it for me."

-George Costanza

586 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:04:29am

re: #583 Walter L. Newton

Thanks. Once I'm done packing up the apartment I'll post some pictures.

587 Ericus58  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:05:03am

re: #565 Obdicut

Please do note the two posts by Charles that Ice cited in her #555.

Here is one in full, by Charles:

Note: I don't feel this has really happened this morning, as there's been a dearth of the use of the word 'prog' as an insult applied to liberals in general.


Obdicut, if using the term "Prog" actually makes someone jump off the cliff - they have other issue's to deal with. There are far harsher terms used here.

Myself, I don't use it but I will note that the term is used by regular Democrats and Progressives. Some do self-identify with it.

588 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:05:32am

Today the conservative Heritage Foundation released its 2010 version of the Index of Dependence on Government. In a word, YIKES!
Americans’ dependence on government grew by 13.6% in 2009. That’s the biggest increase since 1976 and the fifth largest going back to 1962, when Heritage began tracking dependence.

the Heritage Foundation....cooking the books?

[Link: blogs.investors.com...]

589 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:05:33am

re: #561 Obdicut

I do not think you are treating Marshall's judicial experience, record, his work as a civil rights lawyer, or anything about him seriously when you return to the one comment as a summation of his philosophy.

Do you feel that Marshall simply ignored constitutionality?

Is there any reason you changed Marshall's word 'think' to the word 'feel' in this last post? Do you realize you did that?

It is precisely his record and his body of work that makes me believe the results were, luckily, positive despite a philosophy i would never endorse in a current or future judicial candidate.

What is "right", in the context of the law, can be thought about. When straying from the confined of the law ("let the law catch up"), one is relying on personal philosophy rather than the stringent guidelines.

590 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:05:35am

Drive by post:

If our state department is not operating under the assumption that the Russians are spying on us, or trying to spy on us--always--they are too naive to do their jobs.

591 Nimed  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:06:33am

re: #575 reuven

I wonder if this phenomenon is caused by the fact that liberals sleep in, leaving the forum more open for conservatives--who no doubt wake up early to run their businesses and be productive.

///

Can't speak for all liberals, but I personally don't comment in the morning because I'm... working.

592 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:06:36am

After Obama Eats Hamburgers With Medvedev, Russian Spies Caught All Over America

Read more at Wonkette: [Link: wonkette.com...]

593 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:07:05am

re: #590 EmmmieG

Drive by post:

If our state department is not operating under the assumption that the Russians are spying on us, or trying to spy on us--always--they are too naive to do their jobs.

They presume that everyone is trying to spy on us. (Got that from a college friend who is a career State Department guy.)

594 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:07:46am

re: #570 Fozzie Bear

I've been standing here with my sub-ether Sense-O-Matic, but I think the mothership is running late.

See what you get for trying to be a good galactic conservationist? Interstellar public transport is great in concept, but they keep asking for subsidies and they still can't run on time//

595 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:08:28am

re: #594 Aceofwhat?

See what you get for trying to be a good galactic conservationist? Interstellar public transport is great in concept, but they keep asking for subsidies and they still can't run on time//

Besides, you can only build so many hyperspace by-passes.

596 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:09:48am

re: #587 Ericus58

Obdicut, if using the term "Prog" actually makes someone jump off the cliff - they have other issue's to deal with. There are far harsher terms used here.

It doesn't make anyone jump off a cliff. I'm not sure why there being 'harsher terms' has anything to do with this. Prog sure annoys the fuck out of me, mainly because the guy I know in politics who I respect the most and does the most actual good work is, actually, a progressive-- Quintin Mecke. He has this strange idea that as long as we're spending taxpayer money we ought to actually do effective things with it. What a 'prog'.


Myself, I don't use it but I will note that the term is used by regular Democrats and Progressives. Some do self-identify with it.

This is silly. It is clearly, often, used as an insult-- and a very, very inaccurate insult, at that, given the vast spread of people and positions called 'prog' around here.


If anyone's listening to the confirmation hearings, they are still attacking her through Justice Marshall, and she is holding her own with an admirable tenacity.

597 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:12:34am


Aid cash feared lost as £2bn is flown out of Afghanistan
More than £2bn of cash has been openly flown out of Kabul airport since 2007, raising fears huge sums of British and American aid are being creamed off by corrupt officials.

The sum haemorrhaging from one of the poorest countries in the world has led officials to believe the money is from plundered Western aid projects and security or reconstruction contracts, it has been reported.

Proceeds from the country's rampant opium and heroin businesses also account for part of the sum, which is more than the Afghan government's entire tax revenue.

another major problem on somebody's plate...this absolutely cannot continue

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

598 Nimed  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:13:03am

re: #575 reuven

I wonder if this phenomenon is caused by the fact that liberals sleep in, leaving the forum more open for conservatives--who no doubt wake up early to run their businesses and be productive.

///

I mean, you spend the morning looking at news sites for items to post, you're not being that productive at whatever else you're doing. Not that there's anything wrong with it. Just sayin'.

599 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:13:28am

re: #584 Spare O'Lake

I get no respect......

600 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:14:09am

re: #596 Obdicut

This is silly. It is clearly, often, used as an insult-- and a very, very inaccurate insult, at that, given the vast spread of people and positions called 'prog' around here.

If anyone's listening to the confirmation hearings, they are still attacking her through Justice Marshall, and she is holding her own with an admirable tenacity.

people call me a wingnut, I don't care...what's the big deal with the insult thing?

601 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:14:28am

re: #589 Aceofwhat?

It is precisely his record and his body of work that makes me believe the results were, luckily, positive despite a philosophy i would never endorse in a current or future judicial candidate.

What about his Civil Rights work was bad?


What is "right", in the context of the law, can be thought about. When straying from the confined of the law ("let the law catch up"), one is relying on personal philosophy rather than the stringent guidelines.

Again: You are using that one phrase as the one lens, the one way to look at Marshall and his work. This is rather strange to me. In addition, I think that Marshall was speaking honestly about what all the Justices do, not what he personally does. There are very few Justices who rule on the basis that law is law; The Supreme Court is the court that judges laws according to their Constitutionality, and our Constitution contains any number of abstract and loft ideals which define it. It is not defined by a rigid framework of laws, but by a rather few philosophical notions of the position of citizens, state, and freedom.

Maybe when you explain what problem you have with Marshall's Civil Rights work I'll understand your position better.

And again again: Why did you change Marshall's word 'think' to the word 'feel', and do you realize you did it?

602 Slap  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:14:39am

Hi, gang.

I don't know if this is a new phenomenon or not, but I've recently begun perusing and using the LGF Pages (what a great tool, Charles, btw), and today, I noticed the following:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I know we have a history of new registrants dropping in just to trash threads before getting trollhammered. Is this an example of new users dropping turds into Charles' punchbowl?

Or am I being too uncharitable?

Your input is appreciated....!

603 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:19:24am

re: #595 oaktree

Besides, you can only build so many hyperspace by-passes.

I keep saying it...infrastructure jobs are an expensive way to apply "stimulus"...do you know how many ice asteroids you have to tow with you to a hyperspace bypass construction site just to keep everything running?

Subsonic-shovel ready jobs, my red Twi'lek ass...

604 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:21:47am

re: #602 Slap

Hi, gang.

I don't know if this is a new phenomenon or not, but I've recently begun perusing and using the LGF Pages (what a great tool, Charles, btw), and today, I noticed the following:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I know we have a history of new registrants dropping in just to trash threads before getting trollhammered. Is this an example of new users dropping turds into Charles' punchbowl?

Or am I being too uncharitable?

Your input is appreciated...!

That looks a lot more like advocacy and a lot less like typical LGF discussion, to me. And i'm a conservative!

605 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:22:07am

Making the world's most cutting-edge aircraft carrier

This is the dry dock of CVN-78, otherwise known as the Gerald R. Ford, the first in a technologically advanced new class of aircraft carriers known as, yes, the Gerald R. Ford, and yes, named after the 38th president of the United States. A new class of naval vessel is always known by the name of the first model, it seems.

check out this bad boy...

[Link: news.cnet.com...]

606 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:23:01am

re: #522 Fozzie Bear

It always is in the morning, and I haven't the faintest idea what the connection between early mornings and ODS is.

Charles is, presumably, not around so they feel their oats and go all ODS. There are several regular practitioners of this, as you may have noticed.

William

607 Nimed  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:23:13am

re: #603 Aceofwhat?

Hey, Ace. Looks like you're getting your wish -- after the US games and the Round of 16, FIFA is considering instant replay to decide controversial goals.

608 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:24:26am

re: #606 wlewisiii

Charles is, presumably, not around so they feel their oats and go all ODS. There are several regular practitioners of this, as you may have noticed.

William

Charles is always around

609 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:25:27am
610 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:27:16am

re: #605 albusteve

Making the world's most cutting-edge aircraft carrier

This is the dry dock of CVN-78, otherwise known as the Gerald R. Ford, the first in a technologically advanced new class of aircraft carriers known as, yes, the Gerald R. Ford, and yes, named after the 38th president of the United States. A new class of naval vessel is always known by the name of the first model, it seems.

check out this bad boy...

[Link: news.cnet.com...]

Are they going to have Chevy Chase christen it in the hopes that it will slip, fall over, and sink upon launching?

// :D //

611 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:31:04am

Rev. Jeremiah Wright unleashed a slew of racially charged proclamations at a seminar in Chicago last week, reportedly comparing the United States with apartheid South Africa and claiming the civil rights movement was about "becoming white."

out from under the bus?....fanning the flames of racism

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

612 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:31:10am

I've posted a page pimping Slate's contest for Twitter versions of the Declaration of Independence. Seems like a natural for pithy Lizards.

613 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:31:26am
614 Nimed  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:32:11am

Japan-Paraguay game to be decided in penalty shoot-outs. :(

If your place of work allows it and you want to check it out, you can see it here:

[Link: espn.go.com...]

615 darthstar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:33:19am

re: #614 Nimed

Watching now...these are always fun.

616 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:33:34am

The story I posted earlier about the 2 Tampa police that were killed, one had a pregnant wife. She's gone into labor. Her first child might be born on the same day as her husband's death. bbiam

617 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:33:38am

I wish there were dozens more incidents like these going on.

What an upstanding citizen.

618 prairiefire  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:35:53am

re: #564 MandyManners

They have fought the British government against discrimination in their pay, war-time compensation for being taken prisoner by the Japanese during World War II, and the right to claim the UK as their home. However, Nepal's famed Gurkha soldiers will not have to fight a new battle against the new David Cameron government as Britain said they will not be affected by changes in the immigration policy that is expected to slash the number of non-European migrants drastically.

Absolutely fabulous!!

Ms Lumley was on "The Grahm Norton Show" on BBC America. Her English Army dad was born in India. She was born in India. She said this was brought about by herself and 4 other people, for the Gurkhas. She also reps for a bio-oil clean up matt made out of straw. She's been pushing that for 15 years and it hasn't taken off. They are sending some for use in the Gulf.

619 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:36:18am

re: #484 darthstar

New decking and new rules. I suspect the idea is encourage moving. Gets them out from under rent control rules.

620 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:36:20am

re: #611 albusteve

Rev. Jeremiah Wright unleashed a slew of racially charged proclamations at a seminar in Chicago last week, reportedly comparing the United States with apartheid South Africa and claiming the civil rights movement was about "becoming white."

out from under the bus?...fanning the flames of racism

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

According to the New York Post, Wright also alleged that the American education system is built to poorly educate black students "by malignant intent" and criticized civil rights leader Martin Luther King for advocating nonviolence.

What?

621 Nimed  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:37:16am

re: #615 darthstar

Watching now...these are always fun.

Yeah, but it's such a tremendous amount suffering for players and team fans...

I'm sort of rooting for Japan. They have gone a long way in the last 20 years, and are the last Asian team on the tournament.

622 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:37:52am

re: #620 MandyManners

According to the New York Post, Wright also alleged that the American education system is built to poorly educate black students "by malignant intent" and criticized civil rights leader Martin Luther King for advocating nonviolence.

What?

I wonder how Strom Thurmond would respond to that little tidbit

623 prairiefire  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:38:07am

re: #587 Ericus58

I prefer "Liberal". Prog, grog, sog, it just sounds a bit silly. I do like "snog".

624 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:38:10am

re: #620 MandyManners

He wants attention very badly.

625 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:39:13am

re: #618 prairiefire

Ms Lumley was on "The Grahm Norton Show" on BBC America. Her English Army dad was born in India. She was born in India. She said this was brought about by herself and 4 other people, for the Gurkhas. She also reps for a bio-oil clean up matt made out of straw. She's been pushing that for 15 years and it hasn't taken off. They are sending some for use in the Gulf.

She'll always be Patsy to me.

626 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:40:28am

re: #618 prairiefire

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

627 ryannon  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:40:42am

re: #512 iceweasel

Too tired of the hate links and the AM Wingnut Wave every morning and the rampant ODS. I guess the haters always do this when they think Charles isn't around.

Later folks. Not a flounce, just coming back later when the grownups are here and I don't have to see such shit on the threads or deal with it. Thank god and Charles for the page system. Maybe some of the AM Wingnut Wave should start using it more.

Until proof to the contrary, we're adults - and more than capable of making our own choices and interpretatons of the information posted here by other members. I don't see the necessity of creating heavy ideological divisions other than barring people who've clearly gone over the lines established by Charles. If something seems like BS, it's right to call it out with the facts which prove that the info is invalid. But constantly attacking members in good standing and/or doing a temporary flounce does nothing to resolve the reality of differing opinions on a political blog.

One could also say, "If you don't like the information or the poster, just keep scrolling." There's little chance that LGF is going to turn into Stormfront if we accord the same latitude in opinions - and the possibility of sometimes simply being wrong - that we'd like for ourselves.

LGF is an ongoing learning experience and not an echo chamber ceaselessly serving up this week's politically correct plat du jour.

We're adults, and appreciate being treated as such.

628 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:41:49am

re: #601 Obdicut

I didn't say his civil rights work was bad. I said "positive". I think that means "good".

Again: You are using that one phrase as the one lens, the one way to look at Marshall and his work. This is rather strange to me. In addition, I think that Marshall was speaking honestly about what all the Justices do, not what he personally does. There are very few Justices who rule on the basis that law is law; The Supreme Court is the court that judges laws according to their Constitutionality, and our Constitution contains any number of abstract and loft ideals which define it. It is not defined by a rigid framework of laws, but by a rather few philosophical notions of the position of citizens, state, and freedom.

Maybe when you explain what problem you have with Marshall's Civil Rights work I'll understand your position better.

Where did i say i had a problem with his Civil Rights work???

629 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:42:25am

re: #623 prairiefire

I prefer "Liberal". Prog, grog, sog, it just sounds a bit silly. I do like "snog".

You can call me "Lib", or you can call me "Prog" or you can call me...

630 ryannon  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:43:24am

re: #522 Fozzie Bear

It always is in the morning, and I haven't the faintest idea what the connection between early mornings and ODS is.

Morning wood.

631 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:43:49am

re: #607 Nimed

Hey, Ace. Looks like you're getting your wish -- after the US games and the Round of 16, FIFA is considering instant replay to decide controversial goals.

Sweet! Welcome to tennis, where 99% of viewers, players and commentators LOVE having replay available.

632 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:45:24am
633 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:45:56am

Gotta' take The Kid to get his glasses.

634 Nimed  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:46:02am

re: #629 Decatur Deb

You can call me "Lib", or you can call me "Prog" or you can call me...


[Video]

I was hoping for that video! :D

635 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:47:36am

re: #632 MandyManners

Here's the Post's link.

yeah, I read that...pretty disgusting

636 Slap  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:47:49am

re: #623 prairiefire

PROG????

Possibly the greatest 20th century American progressive band. (You could make a case for However, or the Muffins. I wouldn't argue heavily. 'Course, I knew all these guys, so I'm a bit biased....)

637 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:48:05am

re: #602 Slap

Hi, gang.

I don't know if this is a new phenomenon or not, but I've recently begun perusing and using the LGF Pages (what a great tool, Charles, btw), and today, I noticed the following:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I know we have a history of new registrants dropping in just to trash threads before getting trollhammered. Is this an example of new users dropping turds into Charles' punchbowl?

Or am I being too uncharitable?

Your input is appreciated...!

I don't think you can be uncharitable enough regarding the whole tinfoil-hat-wearing anti-Acorn thing. That page doesn't represent anything other than raging paranoia. Note also, no posts, 1 page, and it links to a page that pushes an unhinged conspiracy theory.

"What is ACORN up to now? Watch the video at [Link: [Link: www.ACUACORNAction.org...]...] to find out what ACORN has become. Track former leaders to ensure that we know when ACORN attempts to create new groups using fake names to continue their work."

I mean, really? That's Bircher-level delusional.

638 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:48:39am

re: #628 Aceofwhat?

I didn't say his civil rights work was bad. I said "positive". I think that means "good".

Where did i say i had a problem with his Civil Rights work???

Oh, I just misintepreted your sentence:

It is precisely his record and his body of work that makes me believe the results were, luckily, positive despite a philosophy i would never endorse in a current or future judicial candidate.

Apologies for that. I thought you meant it was precisely his record before the supreme court that made you believe the results on the supreme court were lucky. Sorry for getting you so deeply wrong; it was a significant error in how I read you. I completely acknowledge that you're endorsing and celebrating his record as a Civil Rights lawyer.

But again: I think that you're putting far too much weight on a single sentence that the man uttered. I think his judicial philosophy can best be seen in his actual work, not a single sentence he said in a rejoinder to a question. I'm unsure why people are focusing so much on that, as though it's a shibboleth when it clearly is not.

During the Civil Rights period, we had all sorts of terrible laws that needed to be overturned, and were overturned by the Supreme Court. To me, that seems a very good example of the Justices on the court doing what they thought-- thought in regards to the Constitution, to human decency, and to the spirit of freedom-- was right and letting the law catch up. I'm not sure why that phrase to you serves as such a dire warning of dark things.

And again again again: Why did you change his word 'think' to the word 'feel'? By doing so you drastically change the meaning of the sentence, which you are already over-interpreting.

639 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:49:11am

re: #627 ryannon

Tres juste, bien dit. Je suis completement en accord...mais trop paresseux pour ajouter les propres accents ici...

640 garhighway  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:49:33am

re: #511 Killgore Trout

My issue with the article itself is the spin. I don't think a pro Iraq war Dem could have gotten the nomination. Pretty much all the Dem candidates campaigned on Iraq being a failure. After the surge Bush robbed the dems of their hoped for failure in Iraq. That should have been a problem for the Dems but having Palin on the Republican ticket ended up counteracting that. We should be glad that Obama chose to responsibly wind down the war in Iraq instead of keeping his campaign promise for an immediate and disastrous withdrawal.
I really don't see this as reflecting poorly on Obama.

A few thoughts on this:

1> Obama was right on Iraq: that war was a mistake. It was based on a series of false premises, it distracted us from the true center of gravity in Afghanistan, and it chewed up untold sums of money, thousands of American lives and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives.

2> He was wrong on the surge. One could reasonably suspect that the success of the surge is one of the reasons he so respects Petreus: delivering success on such a mission is quite remarkable and admirable.

3> That he (or the Democratic Party leadeship) "hoped for failure" (regarding the war in Iraq) is insulting. It goes back to the "Democrats aren't patriots" meme that is partisan horseshit. There is a difference between thinking the war was a mistake and wanting our nation's armed forces to fail.

641 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:50:41am

Later.

642 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:51:00am

re: #618 prairiefire

Ms Lumley was on "The Grahm Norton Show" on BBC America. Her English Army dad was born in India. She was born in India. She said this was brought about by herself and 4 other people, for the Gurkhas. She also reps for a bio-oil clean up matt made out of straw. She's been pushing that for 15 years and it hasn't taken off. They are sending some for use in the Gulf.

I really like the GN show, as an aside...

643 ReamWorks SKG  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:51:23am

re: #611 albusteve

At the risk of sounding like a Rev. White apologist, I'd withhold comment until I could hear the talk in its entirety, and not a couple of sentences Fox news pulled out.

I found, in the past, that if you read his entire speeches, or view his entire sermon, his points are much more complex and reasoned than the soundbites will have you think.

644 Slap  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:51:28am

re: #637 Fozzie Bear

That was certainly my take. But I've seen enough errors made when jumping right away to conclusions about intent. Coulda been humor, maybe....?

The charitable impulse in no way interferes with the work of the shit detector, which continues unabated.

645 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:51:39am

re: #639 Aceofwhat?

Tres juste, bien dit. Je suis completement en accord...mais trop paresseux pour ajouter les propres accents ici...

I resent that!
?

646 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:53:04am

re: #645 albusteve

I resent that!
?

Yes.
His laziness is to be frowned upon.

647 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:53:19am

re: #643 reuven

At the risk of sounding like a Rev. White apologist, I'd withhold comment until I could hear the talk in its entirety, and not a couple of sentences Fox news pulled out.

I found, in the past, that if you read his entire speeches, or view his entire sermon, his points are much more complex and reasoned than the soundbites will have you think.

fair enough

648 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:53:26am

re: #643 reuven

Meh. I used to give him the benefit of the doubt, but he's gotten weirder and weirder lately, and more and more divisive.

I'm not willing to take the time to examine his comments to see if they're unfairly being taken out of context. He seems to have a permanent case of butthurt after being cast aside.

649 Slap  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:53:40am

re: #643 reuven

I found, in the past, that if you read his entire speeches, or view his entire sermon, his points are much more complex and reasoned than the soundbites will have you think.

So true, in SO many things.

650 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:54:15am

re: #648 Obdicut

Meh. I used to give him the benefit of the doubt, but he's gotten weirder and weirder lately, and more and more divisive.

I'm not willing to take the time to examine his comments to see if they're unfairly being taken out of context. He seems to have a permanent case of butthurt after being cast aside.

$$$$?

651 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:55:35am

re: #650 albusteve

$$$?

No thanks, Steve. We did mostly a DIY wedding so we didn't spend a lot, and I'm going to continue to do contract work for my company, so I'm all set on money for awhile, thanks.

>Humor alert.

652 ryannon  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:55:45am

re: #555 iceweasel

re: #523 Spare O'Lake

Liars and haters.

re: #530 Ericus58

It's pretty obvious.
1.
and
2.

Later.


Believe it or not, but I don't rely on Charles to do my thinking for me.

Incidentally, I've also seen him radically modify positions on a number of issues since I've been here. It's called a learning curve - or perhaps just transformation. As long as someone is a member here, they should have the possibility of expressing their point of view. If Charles finds it objectionable, the poster will be warned and eventually banned if he/she persists. I leave that part up to Charles, and have no use for vigilante committees other than for the obvious sock or troll.

653 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:56:10am

re: #344 iceweasel

On those things, I am. Wyatt Earp, wrath of God kind of justice works very well for me.

654 prairiefire  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:56:56am

Wright calls Rahm and team "the Jews", as in "the Jews won't let Obama talk to me." That sounds a bit wild eyed.

655 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:57:53am

re: #651 Obdicut

No thanks, Steve. We did mostly a DIY wedding so we didn't spend a lot, and I'm going to continue to do contract work for my company, so I'm all set on money for awhile, thanks.

>Humor alert.

then I'll save my 10k for another use

656 Nimed  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:58:32am

re: #244 ryannon

I had the occasion to go out to the northern suburbs of Paris yesterday. I was totally amazed by the good vibes coming from the people I was dealing with. It was multi-cultural (black, white, brown and everything in between) and everyone was getting along just fine: you got the feeling that the majority of these people were perfectly decent individuals with no particular racial or religious ax to grind. The atmosphere was way more pleasant than in Paris, where people are perpetually tense and aggressive. Of course, there are pockets of high-crime out in the 'burbs, but I'm beginning to sense (as the residents out there have been saying for years) that the media milks it for all its worth and helps to create a vicious circle of self-fulfilling low expectations.

It was a real eye-opener, and I'm humbled by the experience.

Thanks for sharing, ryannon. The impression that people got in the US from the riots a few years ago is that central Paris is wonderful, but going to the Parisian suburbs was more or less like stepping into a war zone.

657 ryannon  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:59:05am
658 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:59:29am

re: #371 Obdicut

re: #655 albusteve

*blinks*

659 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:59:57am

re: #658 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sorry, Obdi... that was accidental... I want Steve's money.

660 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:00:36am

re: #653 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

On those things, I am. Wyatt Earp, wrath of God kind of justice works very well for me.

Earp decided who was guilty and punished them himself, outside and above the law....presumably the locals supported his murderous rampage across SE AZ...good movie stuff too, but it's true

661 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:01:01am

re: #638 Obdicut

Apologies for that. I thought you meant it was precisely his record before the supreme court that made you believe the results on the supreme court were lucky. Sorry for getting you so deeply wrong; it was a significant error in how I read you. I completely acknowledge that you're endorsing and celebrating his record as a Civil Rights lawyer.

forgiven and forgotten...i figured you'd just missed a word in there somewhere. moving along!

But again: I think that you're putting far too much weight on a single sentence that the man uttered. I think his judicial philosophy can best be seen in his actual work, not a single sentence he said in a rejoinder to a question. I'm unsure why people are focusing so much on that, as though it's a shibboleth when it clearly is not.

During the Civil Rights period, we had all sorts of terrible laws that needed to be overturned, and were overturned by the Supreme Court. To me, that seems a very good example of the Justices on the court doing what they thought-- thought in regards to the Constitution, to human decency, and to the spirit of freedom-- was right and letting the law catch up. I'm not sure why that phrase to you serves as such a dire warning of dark things.

Because i do not believe that there are any such gross, festering, unconscionable laws currently operating which pose more threat to a more perfect union than a justice(s) who believe that their conscience is a better guideline for the country than the consciences of our elected legislators.

And if someone that smart sums up their philosophy in a sentence like the one i quoted, i'm going to take them at their word. Surely we can take him at his word? He's earned it...

And again again again: Why did you change his word 'think' to the word 'feel'? By doing so you drastically change the meaning of the sentence, which you are already over-interpreting.

I accept that as an improper mutation of the sentence. I do not want justices to do what they think is right, in this day and age. I want them to do what they think is correct. Most of them are overly focused on the outcome of their ruling, as if it's their job to mitigate the effects of shoddy legislation (on either side of the political spectrum).

662 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:01:22am

re: #640 garhighway

A few thoughts on this:

1> Obama was right on Iraq: that war was a mistake. It was based on a series of false premises, it distracted us from the true center of gravity in Afghanistan, and it chewed up untold sums of money, thousands of American lives and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives.

2> He was wrong on the surge. One could reasonably suspect that the success of the surge is one of the reasons he so respects Petreus: delivering success on such a mission is quite remarkable and admirable.

3> That he (or the Democratic Party leadeship) "hoped for failure" (regarding the war in Iraq) is insulting. It goes back to the "Democrats aren't patriots" meme that is partisan horseshit. There is a difference between thinking the war was a mistake and wanting our nation's armed forces to fail.

1) Yes and no. I was not a fan of the Iraq war at first but once it was on I supported it and hoped we would win. What do you think would be going on today if Saddam Hussien was still in power? Their bitter enemy Iran is getting close to a bomb. Iraq would be desperately trying to get their WMD's stockpiled and possibly working to buy their own nukes from the Norks, Pakistan or the Russian. Possibly considering a pre-emptive invasion to stop their nuke program. The gulf would be very unstable today if Saddam was still in power.
2) agreed
3)It is insulting and it was intended that way. The Dem debates were a contest to see who could surrender Iraq in the quickest and most reckless fashion. I think it was Edwards who eventually started promising to abandon equipment and evacuate personnel in 30 days (or something like that). Obama's position on Iraq is what kept me for voting for him. Losing Iraq would have been very very bad.

663 ReamWorks SKG  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:02:02am

re: #649 Slap

During the "No on 8" campaign in California, I was working with a few other "right-leaning gays" to get Rev. White to come to California to speak out against CA Proposition 8.

The UCC in general, and Trinity UCC, Chicago, in particular--Rev. White's Church--perform same-sex marriages. They run great ads about inclusiveness, like this one:

and this one (my favorite)

We weren't able to get Rev. White. While we didn't hear from him directly, his staff indicated that he didn't want to "distract" from Obama's campaign. (Too bad. I guess some thought it was more important to get Obama elected than to stand up for principles; I don't know what Rev. White personally thought.) Of course, Obama, after ditching Rev. White, picked Rev. Rick "Meth Driven Live" Warren, who was a small part of the envoy that went to Uganda to lobby for the death penalty for homosexuals.

Another interesting footnote: Many gays I met, having only seen out of context clips of Rev. White quote, were *astonished* to discover that he was opposed to marriage discrimination. They presumed, based on their own prejudice, that he was some kind of "hellfire and brimstone" preacher.

664 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:02:45am

re: #651 Obdicut

No thanks, Steve. We did mostly a DIY wedding so we didn't spend a lot, and I'm going to continue to do contract work for my company, so I'm all set on money for awhile, thanks.

>Humor alert.

Smart. My wedding didn't cost too much either, but we had a riot.

Looking forward to pics whenever you have the time...

665 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:03:20am

re: #664 Aceofwhat?

Smart. My wedding didn't cost too much either, but we had a riot.

Looking forward to pics whenever you have the time...

Torched the neighbors cars, did we?
/

666 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:03:36am

re: #657 ryannon

I presume you're in agreement here, Mandy. As I'm sure you know, the Gurkhas have been loyal and redoubtable fighters for England ever since the days of the British Empire. They have every reason to be able to settle in the UK if they choose.

they are some of the most feared killers whoever took up a blade...ask the Germans in Italy....they were petrified of the Gurkhas who did alot of dirty work that no one else dared or could do...utterly fearless, and they loved wet work

667 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:03:50am

re: #654 prairiefire

Wright calls Rahm and team "the Jews", as in "the Jews won't let Obama talk to me." That sounds a bit wild eyed.

More than a bit...sounds bigoted!

668 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:04:17am

re: #665 Varek Raith

Torched the neighbors cars, did we?
/

They don't have the Force powers to silently stack them up when they block the driveway like you do...

;)

669 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:05:30am

re: #664 Aceofwhat?

Smart. My wedding didn't cost too much either, but we had a riot.

Looking forward to pics whenever you have the time...

there was a riot at my sisters wedding too....always a lot of fun

670 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:07:27am

re: #666 albusteve

they are some of the most feared killers whoever took up a blade...ask the Germans in Italy...they were petrified of the Gurkhas who did alot of dirty work that no one else dared or could do...utterly fearless, and they loved wet work

If the British were smart they'd settle a lot of them in northern Scotland and see if they can cross-breed Gurkha Highlanders... Bagpipes and kukris!

671 Slap  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:07:36am

re: #663 reuven

A very wise woman of my acquaintance is fond of saying, "We ALL lead messy lives." Meaning, nobody is ever entirely the one thing you see, and we all contain the most amazing contradictions.

(Which, incidentally, is why I find it both highly amusing and mildly frustrating when I watch people argue about definitions of "liberal" or "conservative".....)

Philosophically, this is the big effort for me -- to remember this truth, preferably BEFORE I open my yap.

672 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:08:53am

re: #665 Varek Raith

Torched the neighbors cars, did we?
/

We told the DJ's that we would withold their pay and torch their cars if we heard any chicken dance, hokey pokey, electric slide, etc, etc. So there were no impromptu fires, but there was the threat of one/

It's the little things that make or break a wedding...

673 ReamWorks SKG  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:08:55am

re: #648 Obdicut

Well, he certainly was unceremoniously dumped. And that was my first big disappointment in Barack Obama; not so much for dumping him in particular, but for dumping the Church that got married in, raised his kids in, etc. Why couldn't he get another UCC minister to speak at the inauguration, for example? Rick Warren seemed to be just a political calculation, and not a true expression of his religious preference.

674 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:09:47am

re: #670 oaktree

If the British were smart they'd settle a lot of them in northern Scotland and see if they can cross-breed Gurkha Highlanders... Bagpipes and kukris!

right, I couldn't think of the name for their knife...but everybody knows about those sissy bagpipe guys

675 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:10:28am

re: #661 Aceofwhat?


Because i do not believe that there are any such gross, festering, unconscionable laws currently operating which pose more threat to a more perfect union than a justice(s) who believe that their conscience is a better guideline for the country than the consciences of our elected legislators.

There are plenty, such as the odious ones preventing gay marriage.

And you keep forming this in terms of 'conscience', rather than, as Marshall did in the one quote you keep referring to as the entirety of what to judge his philosophy by, his intellectual faculties.

And if someone that smart sums up their philosophy in a sentence like the one i quoted, i'm going to take them at their word. Surely we can take him at his word? He's earned it...

Well, I think that's really silly. I think the man's judicial philosophy is very obviously best shown by his actual judicial proceedings, not a one-sentence reply he made at one point.

Can you give an argument for why that one phrase is a better explanation of his philosophy than his many, many written decisions, and previous to that, the large numbers of arguments he made before the Supreme Court on the Constitution?


I accept that as an improper mutation of the sentence. I do not want justices to do what they think is right, in this day and age. I want them to do what they think is correct.

To me that's a hair split so fine you could use it to string the world's smallest violin. Correct and right are synonyms, and I think if he'd said "correct" instead of "right" in his sentence the GOP would still be attacking him in exactly the same manner.


Most of them are overly focused on the outcome of their ruling, as if it's their job to mitigate the effects of shoddy legislation (on either side of the political spectrum).

The ruling on Separate but Equal was decided on exactly those grounds. Do you feel that ruling was a bad one? The ruling held that in the real world, Separate But Equal was an impossibility, that the results, the outcomes of such legislation would never work.

676 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:11:59am

re: #673 reuven

I never thought as highly of Obama as you, I guess, which is why I wasn't disappointed when he did political things.

As an atheist, all the religious stuff is pretty trivial to me except when it affects legislation and governance.

677 garhighway  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:12:03am

re: #662 Killgore Trout

1) Yes and no. I was not a fan of the Iraq war at first but once it was on I supported it and hoped we would win. Me too. What do you think would be going on today if Saddam Hussien was still in power? He would still be doing the same evil shit he did before. As do lots of other evil dictators around the globe, none of which we seem interested in using our nation's wealth and blood to depose. The governance of Iraq is not our business, any more than the governance of Sudan, Venezuela or Zimbabwe are. Their bitter enemy Iran is getting close to a bomb. Iraq would be desperately trying to get their WMD's stockpiled (all zero of them)and possibly working to buy their own nukes from the Norks, Pakistan or the Russian. Possibly considering a pre-emptive invasion to stop their nuke program. The gulf would be very unstable today if Saddam was still in power.The Gulf IS unstable today. Would Iran be acting up if there weren't a power vacuum in Iraq that is at least partially filled by its Shiite pawns? Beats me. Maybe they'd be at war again. That would be OK with me as well, just like it was last time. Let them beat each other's brains in for all I care.)
2 agreed
3)It is insulting and it was intended that way. The Dem debates were a contest to see who could surrender Iraq in the quickest and most reckless fashion. I think it was Edwards who eventually started promising to abandon equipment and evacuate personnel in 30 days (or something like that). Obama's position on Iraq is what kept me for voting for him. Losing Iraq would have been very very bad.There was a fundamental difference between saying you wanted to get out of Iraq and saying that you hope the surge fails. Hoping for the surge to fail is hoping for more American soldiers to die. It is difficult to levy a more offensive insult.

678 prairiefire  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:12:45am

re: #673 reuven

Well, he certainly was unceremoniously dumped. And that was my first big disappointment in Barack Obama; not so much for dumping him in particular, but for dumping the Church that got married in, raised his kids in, etc. Why couldn't he get another UCC minister to speak at the inauguration, for example? Rick Warren seemed to be just a political calculation, and not a true expression of his religious preference.

Excellent, excellent point. I don't think he is spiritually invested in that particular denomination.

679 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:12:48am

Sharron Angle in a radio interview in January of this year:


Manders: I, too, am pro life but I'm also pro choice, do you understand what I mean when I say that.

Angle: I'm pro responsible choice. There is choice to abstain choice to do contraception. There are all kind of good choices.

Manders: Is there any reason at all for an abortion?

Angle: Not in my book.

Manders: So, in other words, rape and incest would not be something?

Angle: You know, I'm a Christian and I believe that God has a plan and a purpose for each one of our lives and that he can intercede in all kinds of situations and we need to have a little faith in many things.

No wonder she doesn't do interviews anymore. When somebody is raped, the proper thing to say to them is NOT "Suck it up, the Lord works in mysterious ways."

680 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:14:02am

re: #672 Aceofwhat?

We told the DJ's that we would withold their pay and torch their cars if we heard any chicken dance, hokey pokey, electric slide, etc, etc. So there were no impromptu fires, but there was the threat of one/

It's the little things that make or break a wedding...

Jewish weddings always play "Land Down Under." Although at my son's wedding it was appropriate since he married a sheila.

681 ryannon  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:14:08am

re: #656 Nimed

Thanks for sharing, ryannon. The impression that people got in the US from the riots a few years ago is that central Paris is wonderful, but going to the Parisian suburbs was more or less like stepping into a war zone.

That was kind of my impression as well. And then it dawned on me that it just wasn't the case.

Even during the worst moments, what you see is an infinitely small number of individuals - generally young, often misinformed, and looking for a way to establish their street cred by attacking anything in sight.

682 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:14:44am

re: #679 Fozzie Bear

Sharron Angle in a radio interview in January of this year:

No wonder she doesn't do interviews anymore. When somebody is raped, the proper thing to say to them is NOT "Suck it up, the Lord works in mysterious ways."

Well then.
If that's the way God works then he can go to hell.
Blunt Mode off.

683 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:15:18am

re: #679 Fozzie Bear

Sharron Angle in a radio interview in January of this year:

No wonder she doesn't do interviews anymore. When somebody is raped, the proper thing to say to them is NOT "Suck it up, the Lord works in mysterious ways."

she didn't say suck it up etc...you put false words in somebodies mouth then criticize them?

684 Gus  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:15:18am

Earthlink sucks donkey balls.

685 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:16:02am

re: #684 Gus 802

Earthlink sucks donkey balls.

They're still around???
Huh.

686 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:16:31am

re: #684 Gus 802

Earthlink sucks donkey balls.

you need a new gig pronto...call Comcast, are they in your area?

687 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:16:49am

re: #683 albusteve

she didn't say suck it up etc...you put false words in somebodies mouth then criticize them?

Oh please, Steve. Enough concern trolling. I quoted her verbatim, then paraphrased. That's not "sticking words in somebody's mouth".

688 ReamWorks SKG  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:16:50am

re: #676 Obdicut

I like to give people a chance, and I have a basic respect for the Office of the President.

I was profoundly disappointed in McCain, too, who--before he started his presidential campaign--was a sensible, moderate conservative. (In fact, Ann Coulter said that she'd vote for Hillary over McCain [Link: blogs.abcnews.com...] ....and McCain made the unfortunate choice of pandering to this sentiment instead of picking a moderate running mate. )

689 Gus  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:17:00am

re: #685 Varek Raith

They're still around???
Huh.

Amazing no? My line has been screwed up since midnight. Third time in 3 weeks. Then I call up support and get some robot from India on the phone.

690 Gus  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:17:16am

re: #686 albusteve

you need a new gig pronto...call Comcast, are they in your area?

I'm thinking about it.

691 Slap  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:17:50am

re: #689 Gus 802
Robots ar steelinz India jobzzz????

692 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:18:03am

I sense a disturbance in the Force...

693 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:18:14am

re: #687 Fozzie Bear

Oh please, Steve. Enough concern trolling. I quoted her verbatim, then paraphrased. That's not "sticking words in somebody's mouth".

your paraphrase probably does not reflect her views. and stop the concern trolling shit and concentrate on accuracy

694 Summer Seale  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:18:36am

re: #689 Gus 802

Amazing no? My line has been screwed up since midnight. Third time in 3 weeks. Then I call up support and get some robot from India on the phone.

I didn't know anyone was still left on dialup. Poor Gus. =(

You do know that movies have color and sound too now, right? =)

695 Gus  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:18:48am

re: #691 Slap

Robots ar steelinz India jobzzz???

Nah, a human one. It's just that they don't seem to care. They're reading from a script or something. Can't really ask them too many questions.

696 Gus  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:19:16am

re: #694 Summer

I didn't know anyone was still left on dialup. Poor Gus. =(

You do know that movies have color and sound too now, right? =)

Thwack!

It's a DSL line. Still. I'm starting to see Earthlink like AOL.

697 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:19:21am

re: #695 Gus 802

Nah, a human one. It's just that they don't seem to care. They're reading from a script or something. Can't really ask them too many questions.

Is your computer plugged in?
Lol, thanks, Comcast.
XD

698 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:19:43am

re: #690 Gus 802

I'm thinking about it.

Comcast's direct cable is worth every cent of the cost, for me anyway

699 Slap  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:19:50am

re: #695 Gus 802

Whew. I kept picturing a South Park episode in Bangalore -- "they took our JOBS...."

700 Summer Seale  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:20:26am

re: #696 Gus 802

Thwack!

It's a DSL line. Still. I'm starting to see Earthlink like AOL.

"Dee....ess....elllllllll?? Smithers! What is that thing??" =)

701 ReamWorks SKG  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:20:42am

Interesting footnote on the Ted Frank "Point Of Law" blog. And it's on the tread topic, too!

[Link: www.pointoflaw.com...]

With that, I'll get to work! It's hard being a consultant.

702 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:20:43am

Wait...an ectopic pregnancy is not a reason for an abortion?

I knew a woman who wouldn't even use birth control, and she had an ectopic pregnancy and had it ended to save her life, and while I'm sure it was devastating, it wasn't because anybody blamed her for anything or made her feel guilty.

703 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:21:13am

re: #700 Summer

"Dee...ess...elll?? Smithers! What is that thing??" =)

You play 8 tracks on it.

704 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:22:22am

re: #695 Gus 802

Nah, a human one. It's just that they don't seem to care. They're reading from a script or something. Can't really ask them too many questions.

Comcast always deals with you in person...they will even help troubleshoot with you...incredible as it sounds

705 Gus  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:22:40am

re: #698 albusteve

Comcast's direct cable is worth every cent of the cost, for me anyway

It has to be around 40 bucks a month. Grrrr. I hate this thing.

She said, wait 4 hours. I don't know if it's back up but my UHP was just failing. But 4 hours? I told her it's been like this since midnight and all I heard was breathing on the other end of the line.

This was after being on hold for 30 minutes.

706 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:22:51am

re: #683 albusteve

she didn't say suck it up etc...you put false words in somebodies mouth then criticize them?

I interpreted it exactly how Fozzie interpreted it and we aren't the only two who do.

707 Summer Seale  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:23:20am

re: #705 Gus 802

It has to be around 40 bucks a month. Grrr. I hate this thing.

She said, wait 4 hours. I don't know if it's back up but my UHP was just failing. But 4 hours? I told her it's been like this since midnight and all I heard was breathing on the other end of the line.

This was after being on hold for 30 minutes.

Maybe her heavy breathing is a clue as to why your bandwidth is currently slow....

708 Gus  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:24:35am

re: #707 Summer

Maybe her heavy breathing is a clue as to why your bandwidth is currently slow...

You ever feel like yelling at someone but don't because you know it wouldn't help? I felt like yelling. What's the use. Earthlink support is like going to McDonald's.

709 tnguitarist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:24:42am

re: #693 albusteve

your paraphrase probably does not reflect her views. and stop the concern trolling shit and concentrate on accuracy

It's not always what people say. Sometimes it's what they don't say. When asked about rape or incest she should have said, "Yes, abortion should be available in cases of rape and incest." because it's the right thing. Instead she speaks in vague platitudes. If you don't want to be misquoted or misunderstood, be specific. She was pandering to religious nuts.

710 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:25:29am

re: #706 marjoriemoon

I interpreted it exactly how Fozzie interpreted it and we aren't the only two who do.

I think you are both wrong...I'm giving the woman the benefit of the doubt and I think that's fair...I cannot believe 'suck it up' and move on is what she meant

711 Summer Seale  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:25:34am

re: #706 marjoriemoon

I interpreted it exactly how Fozzie interpreted it and we aren't the only two who do.

FWIW, I interpreted that statement exactly in the same way: "God works in mysterious ways."

It's always "It's a miracle" and "God is good" when something good happens, and "God works in mysterious ways" when something bad happens. Noelplum99 did his last two videos on YouTube about how disingenuous that philosophy is. I suggest you watch it if you disagree with our characterization of that statement.

712 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:26:23am

Hamas spy: Deportation is death

"Hamas spy Mosab Hassan Yousef fears he will be killed if he is deported from the United States to the West Bank. The oldest son of one of Hamas' founders, he was an Israeli spy for a decade, and he abandoned Islam for Christianity, further marking him a traitor."

DHS considers him to be a terrorist threat.

713 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:26:31am

re: #702 EmmmieG

Wait...an ectopic pregnancy is not a reason for an abortion?

I knew a woman who wouldn't even use birth control, and she had an ectopic pregnancy and had it ended to save her life, and while I'm sure it was devastating, it wasn't because anybody blamed her for anything or made her feel guilty.

No, an ectopic pregnancy is when the egg is fertilized in the fallopian tubes and not in the womb, nor does it move to the womb. If it grows, it can burst through the tube and the woman can hemorrhage to death.

They go in and remove the fetus. Well it's not a fetus even. But they have to. There's nothing else to do in that situation.

714 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:26:32am

re: #709 tnguitarist

I don't think she was pandering. I think she's sincerely a nut herself.

715 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:26:43am

re: #693 albusteve

your paraphrase probably does not reflect her views. and stop the concern trolling shit and concentrate on accuracy

He was being accurate. She sees no exception for rape or incest, the girls just need to have faith, or not, because she believes and her belief is enough for everyone.

716 tnguitarist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:26:46am

re: #710 albusteve

I think you are both wrong...I'm giving the woman the benefit of the doubt and I think that's fair...I cannot believe 'suck it up' and move on is what she meant

So, explain to us what she did mean.

717 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:27:06am

re: #714 Obdicut

I don't think she was pandering. I think she's sincerely a nut herself.

FLUORIDE CRUSADER.

718 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:27:08am

re: #710 albusteve

I think you are both wrong...I'm giving the woman the benefit of the doubt and I think that's fair...I cannot believe 'suck it up' and move on is what she meant

She was asked a direct question and didn't give a direct answer. If she is misinterpreted, than that's her problem.

719 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:28:10am

re: #706 marjoriemoon

I interpreted it exactly how Fozzie interpreted it and we aren't the only two who do.

Years ago I knew a woman who had been date raped, and become pregnant as a result. This woman had had a really tough time in her life. She had decided to carry the child and give it up for adoption.

Later, she was talking to me, and saying that she was thinking maybe she should keep the child, maybe God had sent her this child. (Her husband had killed himself a few years before the incident.)

I don't remember what I said (it was the kind of situation in which you are very careful what you say), but I was thinking that no, God would never have rape as a part of his plan. Not ever. This wasn't His doing.

I don't remember what she decided.

720 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:28:11am

re: #705 Gus 802

It has to be around 40 bucks a month. Grrr. I hate this thing.

She said, wait 4 hours. I don't know if it's back up but my UHP was just failing. But 4 hours? I told her it's been like this since midnight and all I heard was breathing on the other end of the line.

This was after being on hold for 30 minutes.

I pay my bill online....when I didn't Comcast shut me off...but I called them, paid the bill and in seconds was back online, thanks to really nice people here in ABQ...they answer the call instantly and are ready do help no matter what it is or how long it takes....that may differ elsewhere

721 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:28:35am

re: #711 Summer

FWIW, I interpreted that statement exactly in the same way: "God works in mysterious ways."

It's always "It's a miracle" and "God is good" when something good happens, and "God works in mysterious ways" when something bad happens. Noelplum99 did his last two videos on YouTube about how disingenuous that philosophy is. I suggest you watch it if you disagree with our characterization of that statement.

I'm confused... are you agreeing with me or Steve?

"God works in mysterious ways" in this instance means to me, God wanted you to get pregnant so he made sure you got raped.

Lovely.

722 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:29:40am

re: #675 Obdicut

There are plenty, such as the odious ones preventing gay marriage.

Riiight. The question about gay marriage is NOTHING as odious as societal discrimination based on race. It's not even in the same ballpark.


And you keep forming this in terms of 'conscience', rather than, as Marshall did in the one quote you keep referring to as the entirety of what to judge his philosophy by, his intellectual faculties.

Philosophy is only partially an exercise in intellect. The intellect alone will not guide a person to what is "right". Chomsky is a smart guy. His intellect doesn't drive him to correct conclusions on Israel. You keep forming this in terms of a philosophy grounded in intellect. That is incorrect on its face. We are a nation founded on certain beliefs.

We believe that all people are created equal. We believe that we are entitled to certain inalienable rights. Our justification for these beliefs is, at its heart, both moral and intellectual. The intellect does not tell us to feed the poor and care for the orphans.



Can you give an argument for why that one phrase is a better explanation of his philosophy than his many, many written decisions, and previous to that, the large numbers of arguments he made before the Supreme Court on the Constitution?

Yes. They're his damn words! I am not so presumptuous as to say that Thurgood Marshall is not erudite enough to accurately paraphrase his judicial philosophy!

To me that's a hair split so fine you could use it to string the world's smallest violin. Correct and right are synonyms, and I think if he'd said "correct" instead of "right" in his sentence the GOP would still be attacking him in exactly the same manner.

Then let's explore this a bit. Take Citizens' United, for example. Some here at LGF, and many elsewhere, complained ad nauseum that it wasn't right, because the outcome would result in too much influence for "corporations" (nevermind the unions, they're ignored when inconvenient to most of the left).

So what? Whether the outcome is "right" is unimportant. Did the law correctly toe the line of the 1st amendment? No.

The ruling on Separate but Equal was decided on exactly those grounds. Do you feel that ruling was a bad one? The ruling held that in the real world, Separate But Equal was an impossibility, that the results, the outcomes of such legislation would never work.

No. I believe that separate but equal was so odious, so heinous, that I am glad it was struck down.

I do not believe that any such item or law exists today, one so odious that the judiciary must risk a significant overreach to keep the country on track.

723 Summer Seale  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:29:42am

re: #721 marjoriemoon

I'm confused... are you agreeing with me or Steve?

"God works in mysterious ways" in this instance means to me, God wanted you to get pregnant so he made sure you got raped.

Lovely.

I agree with you all the way. =) My "You" at the end of my statement was directed towards Steve. Sometimes it's hard to keep up with work and comments flying. =)

724 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:30:39am

re: #713 marjoriemoon

No, an ectopic pregnancy is when the egg is fertilized in the fallopian tubes and not in the womb, nor does it move to the womb. If it grows, it can burst through the tube and the woman can hemorrhage to death.

They go in and remove the fetus. Well it's not a fetus even. But they have to. There's nothing else to do in that situation.

That was my point. She said there was never a reason for an abortion. Even extremely conservative women I know would have an abortion in that case.

725 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:31:03am

re: #716 tnguitarist

So, explain to us what she did mean.

I can't, nobody can...if you are satisfied with her answer, fine

726 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:31:15am

re: #719 EmmmieG

Years ago I knew a woman who had been date raped, and become pregnant as a result. This woman had had a really tough time in her life. She had decided to carry the child and give it up for adoption.

Later, she was talking to me, and saying that she was thinking maybe she should keep the child, maybe God had sent her this child. (Her husband had killed himself a few years before the incident.)

I don't remember what I said (it was the kind of situation in which you are very careful what you say), but I was thinking that no, God would never have rape as a part of his plan. Not ever. This wasn't His doing.

I don't remember what she decided.

These things are all very personal and that's why I'm pro-choice. It's every woman's decision to do with her body and her unborn child what is in each person's best interest.

I feel bad for your friend. What a decision to make.

727 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:31:24am

re: #680 Alouette

Jewish weddings always play "Land Down Under." Although at my son's wedding it was appropriate since he married a sheila.

Heh. At least that's a catchy song! The chicken dance makes me want to fight someone...

728 Summer Seale  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:31:44am

re: #725 albusteve

I can't, nobody can...if you are satisfied with her answer, fine

I'm not satisfied with her answer; I accept her answer for what she meant.

729 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:32:11am

I am I admit lean more conservative on the side of abortion but when it comes to something like a rape, I'm sympathetic. I can't imagine the stress on a woman who was raped let alone carrying her attacker's baby.

730 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:32:30am

re: #723 Summer

I agree with you all the way. =) My "You" at the end of my statement was directed towards Steve. Sometimes it's hard to keep up with work and comments flying. =)

hehe I pretty much figured that :>

731 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:33:35am

re: #727 Aceofwhat?

Heh. At least that's a catchy song! The chicken dance makes me want to fight someone...

It makes me want to blow up the offender's homeworld.

732 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:34:11am

re: #709 tnguitarist

It's not always what people say. Sometimes it's what they don't say. When asked about rape or incest she should have said, "Yes, abortion should be available in cases of rape and incest." because it's the right thing. Instead she speaks in vague platitudes. If you don't want to be misquoted or misunderstood, be specific. She was pandering to religious nuts.

true enough, I concede
I'm not defending the woman, only her words, I'm probably wrong

733 garhighway  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:35:05am

re: #725 albusteve

I can't, nobody can...if you are satisfied with her answer, fine

So you don't know what she meant, but you are sure that Summer, tnguitarist, Fozzie, Marjorie, et al have unfairly misinterpreted her?

734 tnguitarist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:36:27am

re: #725 albusteve

I can't, nobody can...if you are satisfied with her answer, fine

So, she shouldn't ever be asked to give specific answers? You sound like you are ok with that. She was being purposely vague (although I understand what she meant) just to give herself plausible deniability. Don't pretend that she didn't do it on purpose.

735 Summer Seale  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:37:37am

"Enough of this gay banter..." (Prize for anyone who can tell me where that's from! And no Google Cheating! =) )


I'm going to get a drink. =)

736 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:38:28am

re: #729 HappyWarrior

I am I admit lean more conservative on the side of abortion but when it comes to something like a rape, I'm sympathetic. I can't imagine the stress on a woman who was raped let alone carrying her attacker's baby.

Yep. And in any case, whatever afterlife penalty might or might not apply to abortion...i'll bet you a pearly gate that it's placed entirely on the head of the rapist.

737 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:38:49am

re: #722 Aceofwhat?

Riiight. The question about gay marriage is NOTHING as odious as societal discrimination based on race. It's not even in the same ballpark.

It is to me. And I'm not even gay. But it's not just about gay marriage; there are lots and lots of laws on the books that I think need to be changed; euthanasia is another set of them, children's rights is another. Privacy in general. It's wonderful that we've overcome racism; it's over self-congratulatory to say that that was the last great civil rights fight.

Philosophy is only partially an exercise in intellect. The intellect alone will not guide a person to what is "right". Chomsky is a smart guy. His intellect doesn't drive him to correct conclusions on Israel. You keep forming this in terms of a philosophy grounded in intellect. That is incorrect on its face. We are a nation founded on certain beliefs.

We believe that all people are created equal. We believe that we are entitled to certain inalienable rights. Our justification for these beliefs is, at its heart, both moral and intellectual. The intellect does not tell us to feed the poor and care for the orphans.

Okay. Can you explain the relevance of what you just wrote to what we're talking about?


Yes. They're his damn words! I am not so presumptuous as to say that Thurgood Marshall is not erudite enough to accurately paraphrase his judicial philosophy!

Don't ignore the question: Why do you think that one phrase sums up his judicial philosophy better than all his other writings on the Constitution and law? Why is it better to use his one rejoinder to a question?

His writings are also his damn words, you know.

Then let's explore this a bit. Take Citizens' United, for example. Some here at LGF, and many elsewhere, complained ad nauseum that it wasn't right, because the outcome would result in too much influence for "corporations" (nevermind the unions, they're ignored when inconvenient to most of the left).

On the other hand, some people like me said that it was wrong because I don't believe that corporations can or should have the same rights as individuals, and need to be treated differently than individuals, precisely beacuse I believe the Constitution is about the rights of individuals and not groups.

So what? Whether the outcome is "right" is unimportant. Did the law correctly toe the line of the 1st amendment? No.

Marshall did not say "Do what you say will produce the outcomes you think are right". He said "Do what you think is right". You are continuing to distort what he said, even as you insist it's the only thing that defines his philosophy.

No. I believe that separate but equal was so odious, so heinous, that I am glad it was struck down.

I'm sorry, I can't really tell what your answer is. I'm giving Seperate But Equal as a case where the Supreme Court looked at the outcome of the law, saw that it could never reach the ideal the law professed, and declared it unconstitutional on the grounds of reality, so to speak. I think this is a very wise way to interpret the law.

Are you saying this sort of interpretation is only acceptable in that one case where the law was so heinous but now that's over with we can never use that philosophy or approach again because all the laws now are below some sort of bar of 'heinous' to you?

It's okay to do what you think is right and let the law catch up as long as it's the Civil Rights stuff but not in any other cases?

738 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:40:46am

Gotta run. I have important things to go and buy. Very important things.

*Hides Best Buy bag behind back*

739 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:40:50am

re: #733 garhighway

So you don't know what she meant, but you are sure that Summer, tnguitarist, Fozzie, Marjorie, et al have unfairly misinterpreted her?

no, I went back and reread the post, and had stupidly misinterpreted it...my bad

740 garhighway  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:41:08am

re: #739 albusteve

no, I went back and reread the post, and had stupidly misinterpreted it...my bad

Fair enough.

741 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:42:00am

re: #739 albusteve

no, I went back and reread the post, and had stupidly misinterpreted it...my bad

GROUP HUG!

742 Vambo  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:43:15am
743 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:44:49am

re: #709 tnguitarist

It's not always what people say. Sometimes it's what they don't say. When asked about rape or incest she should have said, "Yes, abortion should be available in cases of rape and incest." because it's the right thing. Instead she speaks in vague platitudes. If you don't want to be misquoted or misunderstood, be specific. She was pandering to religious nuts.

Exactly.

Also, to me, she's a coward. She wants to say "no abortion ever, even in case of rape or incest" because that's clearly what she believes. But instead we get "God has a plan."

Well... DUH!

She's a coward because she knows that she'll sound like an insensitive twit if she says what she thinks, or she would have simply answered the question, "No, I believe it's ok to abort for rape and incest." But no, she couches her answer in a religious statement that #1 can't be clearly understand and #2 makes her feel she's taken the high road.

744 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:45:25am

re: #737 Obdicut

Hellllooooo!! I didn't welcome you back from your festivities.

Hope you had a lovely wedding and even more lovely honeymoon :>

745 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:46:02am

re: #689 Gus 802

Amazing no? My line has been screwed up since midnight. Third time in 3 weeks. Then I call up support and get some robot from India on the phone.

That's not really an India thing. It's a "Help Desk" thing.

My former employer's corporate help(less) desk was outsourced to a third party. You basically interacted with 2-3 levels of them before you got to the actual IT (or other service group) that was responsible to fix the issue. They worked entirely from scripts since they generally had zero operational knowledge. (And in the evenings/weekends the service was further outsourced to a regional/national center.)

As part of my application support work I had to write some of the scripts they used. You had to write the installation/diagnosis as if a monkey was was reading it and doing it; e.g. assume they knew nothing and were incapable of making an informed decision.

And with that the routing of problem tickets still essentially boiled down to what "key word" they heard first since they often routed the ticket to a work bucket based on that. If the word "SAP" was in the email or mentioned in the phone call there was a 85-90% chance it would be routed to the SAP Support bucket regardless of what the actual problem was.

Outsourcing may save a company money. But in every case I've dealt with it there's been a definite loss in level of service and ability to get a fast fix unless you're willing to massively escalate the issue. (And when everyone starts making everything a Priority 1 issue the system reacts by starting to automatically downding everything to Priority 3...)

:p

746 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:46:28am

re: #741 Varek Raith

GROUP HUG!

Not from the group I hang with

They look like the bar scene from Star Wars!

747 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:46:41am

re: #744 marjoriemoon

Helllooo!! I didn't welcome you back from your festivities.

Hope you had a lovely wedding and even more lovely honeymoon :>

Good grief, I forgot about that...

Congrats, Obdicut!

748 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:46:46am

re: #725 albusteve

I can't, nobody can...if you are satisfied with her answer, fine

What part of the following exchange do you need explained:

Manders: Is there any reason at all for an abortion?

Angle: Not in my book.

No reason, ever. Got that? Rape, keep it. Incest, keep it. Anencephaly, keep it, risk death and your health, carry it to term only to watch your little teratogenic mockery of personhood die. Ectopic pregnancy, just die.

I understand why you don't want to deal with this smack you in the face level of obviousness. It's only the logical conclusion of what she actually said.

749 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:47:39am

re: #737 Obdicut

re: #744 marjoriemoon

Helllooo!! I didn't welcome you back from your festivities.

Hope you had a lovely wedding and even more lovely honeymoon :>

Ditto

How was it?

Where'd ya go?

Show us pictures!

What'd you bring me !?!?!?

750 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:47:42am

BBL.

751 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:48:14am

Those of you insisting there is no racist motive behind this: there has been a concerted effort to delegitimize Thurgood Marshall from the right. It didn't just start yesterday. As the first black justice on the Supreme Court, he is a constant target of right wing racists, like the ones at Stormfront that I linked in my post. And Jon Kyl, one of the main GOP attack dogs at the Kagan hearing, has a very long history of race-baiting.

Yes, this is coming from racism. Sorry. I know you don't like to hear it. Every time racism in the GOP is pointed out, we hear a chorus of denial, and I mean every single time. But right wing racism has come raging back into the mainstream, big time. This is one more example.

752 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:48:19am

OT:

Hamas spy Mosab Hassan Yousef fears he will be killed if he is deported from the United States to the West Bank. The oldest son of one of Hamas' founders, he was an Israeli spy for a decade, and he abandoned Islam for Christianity, further marking him a traitor.

He is scheduled to plead his case Wednesday to an immigration judge in San Diego, California, four months after publishing memoirs that say he was one of the Shin Bet security agency's best assets and was dubbed The Green Prince, a reference to his Hamas pedigree and the Islamists' signature green color.

Yousef's case seems straightforward: Helping Israel find and kill members of the militant group would make him a marked man back home. Nearly two dozen members of Congress wrote Homeland Secretary Janet Napolitano this week that Yousef would be in "grave danger" in the Middle East. Former CIA Director James Woolsey says his deportation would discourage other potential spies.

"It is not an exaggeration to say that such an action would set us back years in the war on terrorism," Woolsey wrote in a letter released by Yousef's attorney. "Mosab's deportation would be such an inhumane act it would constitute a blight on American history."

But the Department of Homeland Security isn't convinced and wants him gone, calling him "a danger to the security of the United States" who has "engaged in terrorist activity."

For more, please, go to: Hamas Spy: Deportation is Death (Jerusalem Post)

I would like to encourage readers to contact Homeland Security in support of Mosab Hassan Yousef.

Disclaimer: This posting on lgf is my own and does not necessarily represent the viewpoint of lgf. I am grateful for the freedom lgf offers. - Stuart

753 Summer Seale  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:48:47am

re: #751 Charles

Those of you insisting there is no racist motive behind this: there has been a concerted effort to delegitimize Thurgood Marshall from the right. It didn't just start yesterday. As the first black justice on the Supreme Court, he is a constant target of right wing racists, like the ones at Stormfront that I linked in my post. And Jon Kyl, one of the main GOP attack dogs at the Kagan hearing, has very long history of race-baiting.

Yes, this is coming from racism. Sorry. I know you don't like to hear it. Every time racism in the GOP is pointed out, we hear a chorus of denial, and I mean every single time. But right wing racism has come raging back into the mainstream, big time. This is one more example.

Morning Charles!

I sent you the link to my post about exactly that. Hope you enjoy. =)

754 Summer Seale  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:49:48am

re: #751 Charles

Those of you insisting there is no racist motive behind this: there has been a concerted effort to delegitimize Thurgood Marshall from the right. It didn't just start yesterday. As the first black justice on the Supreme Court, he is a constant target of right wing racists, like the ones at Stormfront that I linked in my post. And Jon Kyl, one of the main GOP attack dogs at the Kagan hearing, has very long history of race-baiting.

Yes, this is coming from racism. Sorry. I know you don't like to hear it. Every time racism in the GOP is pointed out, we hear a chorus of denial, and I mean every single time. But right wing racism has come raging back into the mainstream, big time. This is one more example.

And here's a summation at LGF:
The Long Dark Racism of the Republican Party

755 prairiefire  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:50:56am

re: #738 EmmmieG

Gotta run. I have important things to go and buy. Very important things.

*Hides Best Buy bag behind back*

You'll have to tell us what you are getting! Hmm, it's Tuesday...

756 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:54:13am

Wow. And now Andrew Breitbart is offering money to anyone who sends him the full contents of the Journolist mailing list.

Yes, he's offering money for unethical behavior.

The right wing is so freaking insane right now, I'm really beginning to think they're not ever coming back to sanity.

757 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:54:19am

So, I went down to the store and the teevee was on and Fox News was doing a story about a couple of Fox News reporters sent to cover a Sarah Palin event and there was an open mike and these dudes were rippin' on her, sayin' things like "You know how when you were in college and you had to write a paper and you just crammed every thought and quote you could think of in there just to fill up the space? That's Sarah."

And then the national Fox newsbitch starts rippin' on the reporters, saying "they obviously don't like Sarah Palin and that's not straight news reporting".

Well, I've got news for you, Megyn or whatever your name is: if you get sent to cover a speech and the speakette is tossing word salad, the straight news report would be "Sarah Palin is an idiot!" But these guys didn't say that in their story, because they can't. They were talking amongst themselves, and there was a live mike on. Then they had to go back and write a "straight" news story covering the idiot's speech and not call her an idiot. That, dear newsbitch, is bias.

758 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:54:40am

re: #753 Summer

Morning Charles!

I sent you the link to my post about exactly that. Hope you enjoy. =)

That's an excellent post. And there are many more examples, of course.

759 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:54:55am

re: #745 oaktree

Interesting. That explains quite a bit, but I surmised as much.

Hubby used to work for an IBM help line probably 10 years ago. They didn't want you on the phone more than 15 minutes. In fact, you got didn't get bonuses if you were. He got out of it. He hated it.

His one claim to fame was when he helped a blind man install his memory cards. He had him feeling around the PC, inside and out so he could remove the covers and get to the memory cards. He counted the pins with his fingers running across. I was impressed!

760 Summer Seale  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:55:44am

re: #758 Charles

That's an excellent post. And there are many more examples, of course.

Thank you so much, and yes it's too bad that there are far too many examples to list. Even with the litany I started with to prove my summation, it only covers a few examples of the last few months that you have covered so faithfully here on LGF.

761 abolitionist  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:56:54am

re: #735 Summer

"Enough of this gay banter..." (Prize for anyone who can tell me where that's from! And no Google Cheating! =) )

I'm going to get a drink. =)

My guess --Groucho Marx, host of You Bet Your Life.

762 Summer Seale  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:58:17am

re: #761 abolitionist

My guess --Groucho Marx, host of You Bet Your Life.

Nice try! Actually, it's from the skit "Vocational Guidance Counselor" by Monty Python. =)

763 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:58:30am

re: #757 Cato the Elder

So, I went down to the store and the teevee was on and Fox News was doing a story about a couple of Fox News reporters sent to cover a Sarah Palin event and there was an open mike and these dudes were rippin' on her, sayin' things like "You know how when you were in college and you had to write a paper and you just crammed every thought and quote you could think of in there just to fill up the space? That's Sarah."

And then the national Fox newsbitch starts rippin' on the reporters, saying "they obviously don't like Sarah Palin and that's not straight news reporting".

Well, I've got news for you, Megyn or whatever your name is: if you get sent to cover a speech and the speakette is tossing word salad, the straight news report would be "Sarah Palin is an idiot!" But these guys didn't say that in their story, because they can't. They were talking amongst themselves, and there was a live mike on. Then they had to go back and write a "straight" news story covering the idiot's speech and not call her an idiot. That, dear newsbitch, is bias.


A Fox News reporter complaining about journalistic ethics? That's rich.

764 Gus  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:59:00am

re: #756 Charles

Wow. And now Andrew Breitbart is offering money to anyone who send shim the full contents of the Journolist mailing list.

Yes, he's offering money for unethical behavior.

The right wing is so freaking insane right now, I'm really beginning to think they're not ever coming back to sanity.

They seem to practice the highest standards of journalist ethics. /

765 darthstar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:00:21am

re: #757 Cato the Elder

Heh...Megyn Kelly - Newsbitch.

766 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:00:24am

Then they had to go back and write a "straight" news story covering the idiot's speech and not call her an idiot. That, dear newsbitch, is bias.

that's worth stealing

767 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:00:25am

re: #763 HappyWarrior

A Fox News reporter complaining about journalistic ethics? That's rich.

Yep.

And the best part is: I said out loud in the store that Sarah Palin is a freakin' idiot, and the store owner looked at me and said, "Palin is an idiot, but Obama makes Palin look like a genius!"

I swear to God, this country is in deep shit.

768 darthstar  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:02:24am

re: #767 Cato the Elder

Yep.

And the best part is: I said out loud in the store that Sarah Palin is a freakin' idiot, and the store owner looked at me and said, "Palin is an idiot, but Obama makes Palin look like a genius!"

I swear to God, this country is in deep shit.

Translation: She is an idiot...but she's OUR idiot.

That's when you should have said, "No, he only makes her look white."

769 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:04:10am

re: #748 goddamnedfrank

No reason, ever. Got that? Rape, keep it. Incest, keep it. Anencephaly, keep it, risk death and your health, carry it to term only to watch your little teratogenic mockery of personhood die. Ectopic pregnancy, just die.

I understand why you don't want to deal with this smack you in the face level of obviousness. It's only the logical conclusion of what she actually said.

Did someone argue about an ectopic pregnancy procedure? I know I answered Emmie about that, but I was curious.

You HAVE to remove an ectopic pregnancy. I'm trying to think of an analogy, but I can't.

770 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:04:31am

re: #767 Cato the Elder

Yep.

And the best part is: I said out loud in the store that Sarah Palin is a freakin' idiot, and the store owner looked at me and said, "Palin is an idiot, but Obama makes Palin look like a genius!"

I swear to God, this country is in deep shit.


To me Palin is everything the right says Obama is--- egotistical, intellectually shallow, and yes an elitist too just a different brand.

771 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:06:37am

re: #737 Obdicut

It is to me. And I'm not even gay.

Well, I'm not black. But i'm comfortable going on record as saying that blanket discrimination on the basis of an obvious physical, racial characteristic towers - absolutely towers - over a question of whether certain marital relationships have any grounds on which go retain certain contractual benefits. After all, gays can walk into many churches and get married. You don't mean 'marriage'. You mean 'the simplification of certain contractual elements between a couple and the State such as visitation rights, powers of attorney, wills, etc.' and 'tax treatment of households'.

That's nothing like racial discrimination. Nothing.

But it's not just about gay marriage; there are lots and lots of laws on the books that I think need to be changed; euthanasia is another set of them, children's rights is another. Privacy in general. It's wonderful that we've overcome racism; it's over self-congratulatory to say that that was the last great civil rights fight.

I wholly disagree. Denying the obvious progress that has been made seems to have elevated, in your mind, smaller opportunities for improvement into the monster that was pre-CRA discrimination. One can simultaneously acknowledge that progress remains to be made without making the gross philosophical error of equating the tussles that remain with the monsters that we have conquered.

The absence of any self-congratulation is no less a sin than the overabundance of self-congratulation. I am trying to strike a balance, and that does not include equating any of the items you mention with structured, sanctioned racial and gender discrimination.

Okay. Can you explain the relevance of what you just wrote to what we're talking about?

Sigh. You said i was splitting hairs between right and correct, remember? Perhaps i'll go to the dictionary.
correct:adj.
1. Free from error or fault; true or accurate.
2. Conforming to standards; proper:
right:adj
1. Conforming with or conformable to justice, law, or morality: do the right thing and confess.
2. In accordance with fact, reason, or truth; correct: the right answer.
3. Fitting, proper, or appropriate: It is not right to leave the party without saying goodbye.
4. Most favorable, desirable, or convenient: the right time to act.
5. In or into a satisfactory state or condition: put things right.

I used the words on purpose. "Right" has a connotation of what is "reasonable" or "fitting" or "desirable" that is lacking in the term "correct". I have not split hairs. I am, on the contrary, choosing my words carefully and the dictionary appears to agree with me.


Don't ignore the question: Why do you think that one phrase sums up his judicial philosophy better than all his other writings on the Constitution and law? Why is it better to use his one rejoinder to a question?

Because i am trying to sum up his philosophy!!! "All his writings" ≠ a summation! So i used HIS words. Why are you hounding me for allowing this great man to speak for himself? If you think you can sum up his philosophy better than him, by all means, let it rip.

Marshall did not say "Do what you say will produce the outcomes you think are right". He said "Do what you think is right". You are continuing to distort what he said, even as you insist it's the only thing that defines his philosophy.

It's not the only thing. It is the thesis statement. I do not want a justice to do what they think is right. I want them to apply law, even if they personally think the law is "wrong" in some moral sense. And what is "do what you think is right" even if the law has not yet "caught up" but legislating to create a particular outcome? Given Marshall's own caveat (let the law catch up", those two statements are functionally equivalent.

772 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:09:15am

re: #752 Stuart Leviton

OT:

For more, please, go to: Hamas Spy: Deportation is Death (Jerusalem Post)

I would like to encourage readers to contact Homeland Security in support of Mosab Hassan Yousef.

Disclaimer: This posting on lgf is my own and does not necessarily represent the viewpoint of lgf. I am grateful for the freedom lgf offers. - Stuart

Wow. That's the guy who was on CNN, right? What the fuck is this administration thinking?

773 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:09:25am

re: #770 HappyWarrior

To me Palin is everything the right says Obama is--- egotistical, intellectually shallow, and yes an elitist too just a different brand.

The really interesting part of this little anecdote is that the reporters the national Fox desk is complaining about work(ed) for - Fox News.

Heh. The Murdoch machine is having trouble keeping its own employees on-message.

LOLOLOLOLOL.

774 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:11:40am

re: #772 Aceofwhat?

Wow. That's the guy who was on CNN, right? What the fuck is this administration thinking?

they aren't...if all this is true about this guy, the admin is making a fantastic, lethal mistake....something tells me he's not headed back to the ME

775 Sionainn  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:12:28am

re: #706 marjoriemoon

I interpreted it exactly how Fozzie interpreted it and we aren't the only two who do.

Me, too. There is no way in hell that woman is getting my vote, for that and everything else she stands for and believes.

776 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:14:09am

re: #773 Cato the Elder

The really interesting part of this little anecdote is that the reporters the national Fox desk is complaining about work(ed) for - Fox News.

Heh. The Murdoch machine is having trouble keeping its own employees on-message.

LOLOLOLOLOL.

There's a sort of parallel between this story and the Weigel fracas. In private, people will say what they really think. In today's age, "private" isn't so private anymore. These things come out, and it's like looking behind the curtain to see a sad shriveled old wizard.

777 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:16:55am

re: #776 Fozzie Bear

There's a sort of parallel between this story and the Weigel fracas. In private, people will say what they really think. In today's age, "private" isn't so private anymore. These things come out, and it's like looking behind the curtain to see a sad shriveled old wizard.

Or Gordon Brown calling that woman a bigot in the UK. I am honestly amused by the fake outrages that have resulted from these. It's like people are sincerely shocked that public figures not just curse but poke fun too. The fake outrage over Biden calling the health care bill's passage a big fucking deal. Likewise, lame bs.

778 Sionainn  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:18:03am

re: #710 albusteve

I think you are both wrong...I'm giving the woman the benefit of the doubt and I think that's fair...I cannot believe 'suck it up' and move on is what she meant

How else could it possibly be interpreted?

779 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:20:31am

re: #778 Sionainn

How else could it possibly be interpreted?

Meh, Steve was taking umbrage at me calling the AM the wingnut hour, and so he decided to prove it.

780 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:20:48am

re: #771 Aceofwhat?

I want them to apply law, even if they personally think the law is "wrong" in some moral sense.

That kind of thinking gave us Plessey v. Ferguson, I'll pass and vote instead for humans instead of robots.

781 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:25:11am

re: #780 goddamnedfrank

That kind of thinking gave us Plessey v. Ferguson, I'll pass and vote instead for humans instead of robots.

Bullshit. Scalia correctly points out why Plessy was wrongly decided in light of the 14th amendment.

782 Vambo  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:26:29am

I think I'm still very naive at 26 years old, but I always figured that anyone who stood up to racial discrimination would be heroes. That's supposed to be how it is now. But Thurgood Marshall is actually bad, because of something he said at one point or another that someone didn't like. Weird. Sign of the times? They'll call this "the regressive decade".

783 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:31:45am

re: #771 Aceofwhat?

Well, I'm not black. But i'm comfortable going on record as saying that blanket discrimination on the basis of an obvious physical, racial characteristic towers - absolutely towers - over a question of whether certain marital relationships have any grounds on which go retain certain contractual benefits

Sure. If you look at outcomes and not at the objective justness of it. I thought that's what you were arguing against.


You don't mean 'marriage'.

Oh please. You know what I meant. Don't be silly.

I wholly disagree. Denying the obvious progress that has been made seems to have elevated, in your mind, smaller opportunities for improvement into the monster that was pre-CRA discrimination

Okay. So other than child labor, slavery, voting rights, racial discrimination, worker safety, and the litany of other times the Supreme Court ruled in a way that required the law to catch up, we should never use it.

You're not getting my point at all. Your argument now has dwindled to "Doing what was right and letting the law catch up used to be a good thing, but now things are peachy enough that it's not". It's not even an argument. You don't feel there are any grave injustices left for the Supreme Court to deal with. I understand that. That is not the basis for an argument.

I am trying to strike a balance, and that does not include equating any of the items you mention with structured, sanctioned racial and gender discrimination.

We still have structured and sanctioned racial and gender discrimination.


I used the words on purpose. "Right" has a connotation of what is "reasonable" or "fitting" or "desirable" that is lacking in the term "correct". I have not split hairs. I am, on the contrary, choosing my words carefully and the dictionary appears to agree with me.

Oh Jesus. I can't deal with that level of nitpicking, I'm sorry. I'd give you more credence on the importance you're attaching to his words if you didn't keep changing them.

Because i am trying to sum up his philosophy!!! "All his writings" ≠ a summation! So i used HIS words. Why are you hounding me for allowing this great man to speak for himself? If you think you can sum up his philosophy better than him, by all means, let it rip.

I don't think his philosophy can be summed up like that. I'm 'hounding' you for insisting on judging him simply by that one phrase. It's stupid.

It's not the only thing. It is the thesis statement. I do not want a justice to do what they think is right. I want them to apply law, even if they personally think the law is "wrong" in some moral sense.

Except when you don't, as in "Seperate But Equal", and assumedly, a large number of other decisions.

And what is "do what you think is right" even if the law has not yet "caught up" but legislating to create a particular outcome?

That you are changing his words in order to interpret them as you want and no longer care that you're changing his words to interpret them as you want ends my interest in discussing this with you at all.

Disappointing.

784 albusteve  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:33:03am

re: #779 Fozzie Bear

Meh, Steve was taking umbrage at me calling the AM the wingnut hour, and so he decided to prove it.

you have a lower opinion of yourself than I do...I respond to posts, not people

785 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:39:04am

re: #783 Obdicut

That you are changing his words in order to interpret them as you want and no longer care that you're changing his words to interpret them as you want ends my interest in discussing this with you at all.

Disappointing.

Bullshit. I spent some real time debating this with you. I will tell you when i no longer "care" - your presuming it of me is lazy and insulting. I would have been happy to continue to labor towards a clearer description of why i believe i am interpreting his words correctly, and not just as i want to fit my own ends, but since you've arrogantly presumed that i just don't care, why don't you fuck off.

Don't waste my time the next time you're just going to assume i don't care rather than assuming that i am debating as honestly as possible. What fucking waste of time. That's what's disappointing. Rather than assume we're both debating honestly and continue to work towards a clearer understanding of each others' points, you pull the "Ace is twisting words and doesn't care about it" bullshit and walk away.

you can shove your presumptions of my dishonesty. i cared very much right up to the point where you told me that i didn't.

786 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:51:19am

re: #785 Aceofwhat?


I didn't presume any dishonesty on your part, Ace, calm down.

I do feel that you've been massively casual in your treatment of this, and not held yourself anywhere near your usually high standards. You keep insisting that these are the words we should judge Marshall by, and then changing those words, and insisting on particular interpretation of those words that serve your purpose.

You don't appear to care that you're assuming "Do what is right" means "Do what will bring about the right outcomes", even though that's not what he said. I called it to your attention, and you blithely said that was what it meant-- that is why I said that you don't care about chaning his words. It wasn't an assumption on my part.

Doing what is right and letting the law catch up does not mean the same thing as doing what will bring the right outcomes. That phrase, on its own, is not nearly enough to interpret what it means; it has to be looked at in the light of what he actually did.

When someone stops debating a subject because they feel that you've been arguing in a sloppy manner, it is not a time to flip out on them and tell them to fuck off.

Your argument on this subject has been far below your standards. I'm sorry that it's hurt you to the degree that it has, but I'm not saying lightly that your argument here has completely fallen apart.

787 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:55:44am

re: #786 Obdicut

"Do what is right" should be "You do what you think is right", to be his actual phrase.

I'd note that the "You", rather than "I", is very important in that phrase; I really think he's saying that about all justices, not just himself, that it's an observation, rather than a prescription.

Of course, looking at the other arguments he's made is the better way to interpret his judicial philosophy, rather than a single phrase.

788 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:57:06am

re: #786 Obdicut

I didn't presume any dishonesty on your part, Ace, calm down.

Bullshit. I quite care about making my point as clearly and honestly as possible; it would be dishonest to debate otherwise. You presume dishonesty. Period.

And if you believe that I am below standard, it is incumbent upon you to SHOW it, not say that i don't "care" and than i'm "casual" and then walk away.

When someone stops debating a subject because they feel that you've been arguing in a sloppy manner, it is not a time to flip out on them and tell them to fuck off.

Oh, no. That's not what you said. Allow me to quote.

That you are changing his words in order to interpret them as you want and no longer care that you're changing his words to interpret them as you want.

If i don't care that i'm changing his words, then i must be doing it on purpose = dishonesty ≠ sloppy.

Sloppy is unintended. If i don't care that i'm changing his words, i must be doing so intentionally.

At least quote yourself accurately when you're insulting. And thanks again for giving up on such a subjective judgment.

789 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:57:28am

pimf

than = then

790 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:06:52pm

re: #781 Aceofwhat?

Bullshit. Scalia correctly points out why Plessy was wrongly decided in light of the 14th amendment.

My God, your self-identified judicial champion is Antonin Scalia? Wow. He's a complete two faced piece of trash on this matter:

Speaking just this February at the Hoover Institution, Scalia argued (approx. 24:20) that the doctrine of “incorporation,” which holds that the Bill of Rights applies to state governments via the Fourteenth Amendment, is a “mistake” and is “probably false.”

Scalia is ideology first, an activist with pretenses of originalism. He only said he was against Plessey because Plessey is infamous, and he's only for MacDonald because it's a second amendment issue. However, his dissent in Lawrence v. Texas betrays his mendacity.

791 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:07:02pm

re: #788 Aceofwhat?

Bullshit. I quite care about making my point as clearly and honestly as possible; it would be dishonest to debate otherwise. You presume dishonesty. Period.


Then you're presuming dishonesty on my part right now. Great.

And if you believe that I am below standard, it is incumbent upon you to SHOW it, not say that i don't "care" and than i'm "casual" and then walk away.

I have shown, it, Ace, to the best of my ability. Your argument is especially weak when you say that for Seperate But Equal it was okay to consider results, but now it isn't because there aren't any laws that are odious enough. That, more than anything Marshall has said, is an indication that subjectivity is key in interpreting law. There is no objective measure that could be used as a guide for when it's okay or not. You are there essentially making Marshall's argument more strongly than he did.


At least quote yourself accurately when you're insulting. And thanks again for giving up on such a subjective judgment.

I am going to walk away from this now, Ace, because I feel your reaction is far out of bounds of what I've said. I didn't mean any imputation of dishonesty whatsoever. I do think your argument was terrible, and when it comes down to insisting you can interpret words he said to mean something entirely different, I can't do anything with that.

I also do not think there is any moral flaw in stopping a debate at any point.

792 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:21:30pm

re: #791 Obdicut

I am going to walk away from this now, Ace, because I feel your reaction is far out of bounds of what I've said. I didn't mean any imputation of dishonesty whatsoever. I do think your argument was terrible, and when it comes down to insisting you can interpret words he said to mean something entirely different, I can't do anything with that.

I also do not think there is any moral flaw in stopping a debate at any point.

Bullshit! If my argument is terrible, it should be easy to demonstrate it! If you're simply tired of the debate, say so and I'm fine with it!

Just don't give me that weaksauce crap about how i'm twisting his words on purpose and i don't care about it and therefore you're walking away, because if i don't care that i'm twisting the words = i'm not arguing in good faith = i'm being dishonest. Plain. And. Simple.

That's insulting, it's lazy, and it got the reaction that it deserved.

793 SpewedOut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:23:22pm

It's not clear to me that there is anything particularly wrong with assailing Thurgood Marshall for his approach to the law as a Supreme Court Justice. Behind the labels "activist" and "strict constructionist" lie some serious ideas about the role of the Court in the constitutional scheme and the life of the country. Marshall, great man as he was, is generally acknowledged to have been a less than great legal intellect who tended to write his opinions in a result-oriented manner. You and I may applaud the results he sought (I think history largely applauds those results), but still question whether that manner of decision making at the highest level is consistent with the obligations of a Supreme Court Justice. It's not hard to envision the potential ruination of the institution if unfettered results-oriented judicial decision making became the norm. After all, the political viewpoints of the Justices will swing from pole to pole and all points in between over time, so that activism that you and I applaud will be replaced with activism that we revile. To me, this is why restraint, respect for precedent, and commitment to sublimating ones political instincts to a proper set of decisional rules is not a "conservative" approach, but the only approach that preserves the power and purpose of the Court as the third branch of government. Love Thurgood Marshall for his sense of justice, love him for his commitment and his honorable conduct, you can still fairly call him out for being "the epitome of a results oriented judge" and in doing so neither be racist nor depart from the truth of the man's record.

794 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:30:15pm

re: #792 Aceofwhat?

Bullshit! If my argument is terrible, it should be easy to demonstrate it! If you're simply tired of the debate, say so and I'm fine with it!

That's a false dichotomy. First of all, I have demonstrated your agument is terrible-- your view that it was okay to use results-based judgement for separate but equal (though that is not, actually, the way the judgement was arrived at, but instead that it could never achieve results in the real world that lived up to the name) but not any more is itself an essentially subjective argument. It destroys any argument you may have against subjectivity when you readily admit that you think it's fine to be subjective if things are bad enough.

Second of all, I'm not tired of the debate, but I have no way of debating you if you're simply going to insist that you can change Marshall's words to different words and judge him on those, there's nothing I can say to that except that no, you can't do that, and there is nothing to debate other than doing so is completely wrong.


Just don't give me that weaksauce crap about how i'm twisting his words on purpose and i don't care about it and therefore you're walking away, because if i don't care that i'm twisting the words = i'm not arguing in good faith = i'm being dishonest. Plain. And. Simple.

How on earth is that plain and simple? I'm not saying you're being dishonest. I'm saying that you are making an argument where you are simultaneously saying that these are the only words we should judge his judicial philosophy by, but then going ahead and changing those words to a different form and judging him on that change. That is a fallacious argument.

Saying that someone is using a fallacious argument-- and that you don't appear to care that you're using a fallacious argument-- isn't accusing you of being dishonest or arguing in bad faith, just arguing badly, and being human.

You seem bound and determined to take grave offense, so I'll let you do it. I'll note again that you're now repeatedly accusing me of dishonesty as well.

795 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:31:33pm

re: #793 SpewedOut

Marshall, great man as he was, is generally acknowledged to have been a less than great legal intellect who tended to write his opinions in a result-oriented manner.

Totally false.

One easily-findable answer to that:

In TSC Industries, Inc. v. Northway, Inc. he articulated a formulation for the standard of materiality in United States securities law that is still applied and used today.

796 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:31:49pm

re: #790 goddamnedfrank

Scalia is ideology first, an activist with pretenses of originalism. He only said he was against Plessey because Plessey is infamous, and he's only for MacDonald because it's a second amendment issue. However, his dissent in Lawrence v. Texas betrays his mendacity.

hang on. i got pissed at Obdicut, but it usually only takes me 3-4 minutes to calm back down and we'll all be buddies again...i'm reading this now...

797 Aye Pod  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:31:54pm

re: #627 ryannon

If something seems like BS, it's right to call it out with the facts which prove that the info is invalid. But constantly attacking members in good standing and/or doing a temporary flounce does nothing to resolve the reality of differing opinions on a political blog.

Iceweasel has called out Mandy's BS a number of times, as have I and many others, and provided the relevant info. The problem here is that Mandy is CONSTANTLY doing this. It's obvious to many people here that she has been playing childish games of stepping over the line and them jumping back. And she's doing it virtually every morning.

And yes, I do see that the gratuitous and silly use of the term "temporary flounce" here is intended as a provocation.

One could also say, "If you don't like the information or the poster, just keep scrolling."

One could, but Charles has expressed thanks in the past many times for a heads up about posts that makes the site look bad and put off new posters. Since it's Charles's site I'll take that as being more relevant than what some self appointed spokesman for the AM wingnut wave has to say about it.

LGF is an ongoing learning experience and not an echo chamber ceaselessly serving up this week's politically correct plat du jour.

We're adults, and appreciate being treated as such.

This is simply a false dichotomy. Taking a strict line on posts that link to racist sites, holocaust denial sites or simply create an atmosphere that will put off the kind of reasonable posters Charles is trying to attract here does not entail an echo chamber. I must note here for the record the distinctly stalkery aroma surrounding that sort of rhetoric, btw.

The whole issue is that some posters of the wingnut persuasion here seem to be having difficulty behaving like adults. If I were a conservative poster, I wouldn't be rallying to defend every idiotic piece of mischief making by the likes of Mandy*. I'd expect better.

*I should add that not every conservative poster on LGF does this - and kudos to them. I just wish more conservative posters here would realise that defending the worst that conservative posters here have to offer isn't the way to go.

798 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:36:09pm

re: #794 Obdicut

Second of all, I'm not tired of the debate, but I have no way of debating you if you're simply going to insist that you can change Marshall's words to different words and judge him on those, there's nothing I can say to that except that no, you can't do that, and there is nothing to debate other than doing so is completely wrong.

You can say "i can't do that". I can hear that - it's a valid objection.

Instead, you chose to say that i am twisting his words and i don't care that i'm doing so and it disappointed you and you were walking away.

Please stick to your original statement, or repudiate it. Or walk away. Half of my offense is that you were just going to walk away on a false assumption. Either walk away or stick around and pick me back up - but be straight about it. Just don't tell me i'm twisting Marshall's words and i don't care about it. That's lazy and insulting.

799 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 12:38:46pm

re: #798 Aceofwhat?

Instead, you chose to say that i am twisting his words and i don't care that i'm doing so and it disappointed you and you were walking away.

You did change-- not twist, but change-- his words, and it was very disappointing that when I pointed it out to you you didn't see anything wrong with it, but continued to do it.

Please stick to your original statement, or repudiate it. Or walk away. Half of my offense is that you were just going to walk away on a false assumption.

This is annoying as fuck. I'm obviously attempting to try to soothe an insult you feel, and you're basically attacking me for it.

Fine, walking away.

800 SpewedOut  Tue, Jun 29, 2010 1:18:39pm

re: #795 Obdicut

Sure, he wrote many opinions that are of value to their respective area of jurisprudence, no debate about that. Most Justices find themselves authoring something important to some area of the law during their typically rather long tenures. But to take a definition of materiality in one area of the law (a rather arcane achievement) and from there elevate the entire oevre to "greatness" is a bit of a stretch. He was a VERY influential justice. He was an undeniably great man. But neither of those facts makes it wrong to find fault with the activist school of the judiciary.


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