My goodness. Goodness gracious. Goodness me.
Watch as GOP Sen. Chuck Grassley hopelessly confuses the Declaration of Independence with the US Constitution, and declares that the right to bear arms comes directly from God.
2 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:14:35pm |
To borrow from Nekama: How about giving Thomas Jefferson some credit for a change, you teabagging imbecile.
| 3 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:14:54pm |
re: #2 Dark_Falcon
To borrow from Nekama: How about giving Thomas Jefferson some credit for a change, you teabagging imbecile?
PIMF
| 4 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:15:29pm |
"Thou shalt bareth the armestites unto the"
/so sayeth the Mullahs of the Konstitution
| 5 |
Political Atheist Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:16:08pm |
Oh no. Here we go again. With friends like this, as they say.
| 6 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:17:13pm |
If this is driving you to drink, drink Zionist wine.
| 7 |
jaunte Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:17:37pm |
A quote from Young Guns:
Arkansas Dave Rudabaugh: I've been to gold towns, silver towns, I've even been to turquoise towns. But I have never been to a bat shit town.
| 8 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:17:53pm |
Dumb All Over
| 9 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:18:02pm |
OMG, this is so awful!
He makes no sense whatsoever!
How the hell would anybody be able to answer that mess of a question?
| 10 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:18:13pm |
Yes... When G-d was going on about all that, thou shalt not murder and compassion for the poor and down trodden stuff - He slipped his vast eternal plan for weak minded red-necks and conspiracy loons to use large fire-arms as substitutes for penises in a world which frightens them.
| 11 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:19:14pm |
re: #6 Alouette
If this is driving you to drink, drink Zionist wine.
You missed some banter about shiksappeal...
I commented that my mom doesn't have any issues with shiksa - just them appealing to me ;)
| 12 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:19:58pm |
| 13 |
Racer X Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:20:12pm |
| 14 |
kreyagg Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:23:00pm |
I frequently wonder if politicians like this Grassley really believe the theistic stuff or he just uses it to keep the religious morons voting for him.
| 15 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:23:44pm |
UNALIENABLE RIGHTS amongst them life liberty and the pursuit of happines - and that is the Declaration of Independence. Yes, educated Americans do know what it says and much better men than you died for the principles invoked to create this nation. Why dear G-d why does every single Republican have to be the sort of twit who would fail sixth grade?!?
| 16 |
pharmmajor Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:24:10pm |
How do these people get into Congress without basic knowledge of the Constitution?! Right above the second amendment, there's one that specifies SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. Look it up, Chuck.
| 17 |
pharmmajor Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:24:41pm |
re: #15 LudwigVanQuixote
UNALIENABLE RIGHTS amongst them life liberty and the pursuit of happines - and that is the Declaration of Independence. Yes, educated Americans do know what it says and much better men than you died for the principles invoked to create this nation. Why dear G-d why does every single Republican have to be the sort of twit who would fail sixth grade?!?
Not every republican... just the ones who get elected and have talk shows.
| 18 |
calochortus Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:26:57pm |
Kagan's expression, as she tries to figure out what the question might actually be, is priceless.
| 19 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:27:19pm |
And as to the founding of this nation and the constitution - there is a solid wall between church and state.
Again, why, why is it that the GOP has become the party of morons? For the past decade, they have yet to produce a high ranking official (who is not a behind the scenes manipulator like Cheney or Rove) who isn't dumb as a brick, uneducated, arrogantly proud of his or her utter ignorance in a perverse way and frankly anti-American with respect to the basic principles of America.
| 20 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:27:38pm |
Your Grassley is Assley!
| 21 |
dragonfire1981 Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:28:14pm |
And Obama and the Democrats are supposed to be the crazy, out of touch ones??
| 22 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:28:34pm |
And as to the behind the scenes manipulators like Cheney and Rove, they are not stupid - they know what they are doing - that makes them evil.
| 23 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:28:43pm |
re: #14 kreyagg
I frequently wonder if politicians like this Grassley really believe the theistic stuff or he just uses it to keep the religious morons voting for him.
I'd bet my car title Grassley does not believe this mumbo jumbo.
| 24 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:29:52pm |
re: #15 LudwigVanQuixote
UNALIENABLE RIGHTS amongst them life liberty and the pursuit of happines - and that is the Declaration of Independence. Yes, educated Americans do know what it says and much better men than you died for the principles invoked to create this nation. Why dear G-d why does every single Republican have to be the sort of twit who would fail sixth grade?!?
I met one on Sunday who's a different sort, Ludwig. He's running for Congress in my district and he also appears to be an observant Jew. His name is Joel Pollak.
| 25 |
Bagua Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:30:16pm |
| 26 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:31:54pm |
re: #19 LudwigVanQuixote
And as to the founding of this nation and the constitution - there is a solid wall between church and state.
Again, why, why is it that the GOP has become the party of morons? For the past decade, they have yet to produce a high ranking official (who is not a behind the scenes manipulator like Cheney or Rove) who isn't dumb as a brick, uneducated, arrogantly proud of his or her utter ignorance in a perverse way and frankly anti-American with respect to the basic principles of America.
I wouldn't call Condi Rice stupid or ignorant, nor would I call Donald Rumsfeld stupid. Wrong yes, but Rumsfeld is not stupid.
| 27 |
Bagua Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:32:24pm |
re: #22 LudwigVanQuixote
Did you post your piece on the fluid dynamics of the Oil Spill yet?
| 28 |
Gus Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:34:26pm |
Gunesis 1 NIV - Verse 29
Then God said, “I give you every rifle and shotgun on the face of the whole earth and every handgun that is semi-automatic with bullets in it. They will be yours for providing a well regulated Militia, necessary to the security of a free State. And these rights, inalienable of the people, to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. And to all the citizens of America with rifles, shotguns and hand guns — to thine that own everything that has the grey and blue gun metal on it—I give thee ammunition for thine Militia.” And it was so.
//
| 29 |
Lidane Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:37:09pm |
I just...wow. I think I'll let Neil Innes say it all for me:
| 30 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:38:59pm |
But seriously, the important factor here is that the question is so bizarre that a serious legal scholar has never even considered it before. I've heard this same argument in the past from many of our now flounced ex-lizards. The concept that right our rights are dictated by divine entity instead of the Constitution has now reached the top of the Republican party. There is no other word for this than Theocracy. It's very dangerous.
| 31 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:39:49pm |
re: #24 Dark_Falcon
I met one on Sunday who's a different sort, Ludwig. He's running for Congress in my district and he also appears to be an observant Jew. His name is Joel Pollak.
It is not possible for an observant Jew to be a modern Republican. Anyone who cares about Torah Law cares for the poor and downtrodden, considers all people to be descended from the same ancestors and created in the image of the same loving creator thus having equally infinite worth (that includes poor people, black people and brown people). People who care about Torah law care about the environment and the instruction of children - education. People who care about Torah Law care about education and respect learning. People who care about Torah Law put strong women on pedestals and don't call them lesbians for being smart and capable - rather they are praised as Eshet Chayil. People who care about Torah Law, hate violence, but use it as a grim necessity to protect and defend - not as a threat to those who we would abuse. People who care about Torah Law do not permit unethical businesses to profit from suffering or dishonesty (BP anyone).
People who care about Torah Law would not be in a political party with those who hold contrary views to those above.
Therefore, if he is Jewish and Republican, he is NOT observant.
| 32 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:40:48pm |
re: #27 Bagua
Did you post your piece on the fluid dynamics of the Oil Spill yet?
NO, I am waiting on some results from some friends who have been down there. The most important point is a more reliable estimate of how much oil we are actually dealing with.
| 33 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:41:12pm |
re: #28 Gus 802
...and you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee...
| 34 |
Gus Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:42:13pm |
re: #33 Killgore Trout
...and you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee...
[Video]
Ezekiel 25:17!
| 35 |
kreyagg Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:42:31pm |
| 36 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:42:38pm |
Since I am on feminist and woman's issue train of thought tonight, I thought I would post this sexy new Victoria's Secret ad. It might surprise you.
| 37 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:42:57pm |
re: #31 LudwigVanQuixote
It is not possible for an observant Jew to be a modern Republican. Anyone who cares about Torah Law cares for the poor and downtrodden, considers all people to be descended from the same ancestors and created in the image of the same loving creator thus having equally infinite worth (that includes poor people, black people and brown people). People who care about Torah law care about the environment and the instruction of children - education. People who care about Torah Law care about education and respect learning. People who care about Torah Law put strong women on pedestals and don't call them lesbians for being smart and capable - rather they are praised as Eshet Chayil. People who care about Torah Law, hate violence, but use it as a grim necessity to protect and defend - not as a threat to those who we would abuse. People who care about Torah Law do not permit unethical businesses to profit from suffering or dishonesty (BP anyone).
People who care about Torah Law would not be in a political party with those who hold contrary views to those above.
Therefore, if he is Jewish and Republican, he is NOT observant.
No downding, but I really hope you're wrong. Because the sandtrap of machine politics that is the Democratic party in my state leaves me with little choice but to vote for the GOP, even if Bill Brady (the Republican candidate for governor) happens to be a Creationist. I'm still voting for Brady, because he's the least-worst choice I've got.
| 38 |
Bagua Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:43:17pm |
re: #32 LudwigVanQuixote
NO, I am waiting on some results from some friends who have been down there. The most important point is a more reliable estimate of how much oil we are actually dealing with.
Yes the volume estimates are highly problematic at this point. Also there was a significant increase after the kinked riser was cut off.
Thanks for the update.
| 39 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:43:43pm |
re: #35 kreyagg
I think the Haredi might disagreee with you.
[Link: www.haaretz.com...]
Those that would disagree with a single word of the Torah I listed, are the sorts of Haredim that give observant Jews a bad name.
| 41 |
kreyagg Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:45:34pm |
re: #36 LudwigVanQuixote
Nice commercial, though I may have been reading too many posts over at Iblamethepatriarchy lately.
| 42 |
calochortus Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:46:41pm |
There was a study out a few months ago indicating that people think God's opinion mirrors their own. While they honestly believe they are taking their cue from God, when the person's opinion changes, they are likely to think God shares their new opinion. (I'd post a link, but my brain is fried... Nicholas Epley did the study, you can Google it if you're interested.)
Anyway, IMHO that makes God's will a highly suspect rationale for any course of action.
| 43 |
kreyagg Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:47:10pm |
re: #39 LudwigVanQuixote
That's the problem though, fundamentalists like that really think that they are the real Jews/Christians/Muslims and everyone else is just trying to weaken the faith.
| 44 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:47:23pm |
re: #41 kreyagg
Nice commercial, though I may have been reading too many posts over at Iblamethepatriarchy lately.
Don't get me started on the Emanuel school thing.
As a wider issue, there are Jewish laws and some of them are certainly gender specific - almost universally in favor of the woman - and then there are what certain crazy Haredim make of them and give us all a bad name.
| 45 |
Political Atheist Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:49:49pm |
OT
After a nice steak and wine dinner we chose to have some fun. D_L, myself and the newest registered lizard "leftwingconspirator" put together a little satire. Enjoy. My good friend who leans a bit left chose the nic. Just for the fun of it. No, NOT a sock puppet.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 46 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:50:00pm |
re: #43 kreyagg
That's the problem though, fundamentalists like that really think that they are the real Jews/Christians/Muslims and everyone else is just trying to weaken the faith.
Yes, pity those fundies are so very good at editing out the inconvenient parts of their own books and traditions when they are getting angry or fearful or hateful. That is a problem of zealots everywhere not just us Jews. About the only thing I can say in defense of the more "colorful" denizens of Mia Sharim and certain Yishuvim is that at least our psycho fundies generally don't try to kill people or approve of it.
| 48 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:52:13pm |
re: #41 kreyagg
Nice commercial, though I may have been reading too many posts over at Iblamethepatriarchy lately.
Also it should be pointed out that the Haredim are far from monolithic. I have met very observant and very shtark women who are full professors of sciences at major universities. I have met Haredim who are the sweetest and most reasonable people you could hope to meet. As always when dealing with anything Jewish - there is never anything monolithic.
| 49 |
Irenicum Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:53:26pm |
re: #18 calochortus
That is so true. It would take every ounce of my being to not get up and pummel his sorry ass for asking such an incredibly stupid question. The historical ignorance is beyond stupifying.
| 50 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:54:31pm |
re: #30 Killgore Trout
But seriously, the important factor here is that the question is so bizarre that a serious legal scholar has never even considered it before. I've heard this same argument in the past from many of our now flounced ex-lizards. The concept that right our rights are dictated by divine entity instead of the Constitution has now reached the top of the Republican party. There is no other word for this than Theocracy. It's very dangerous.
Well said. but very dangerous is an understatement. This is a tiger by a tail and the GOP is too short-sighted to see it. Once you whip all that rage, fear and sanctimony - it does not dissipate easily.
| 51 |
calochortus Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:54:40pm |
re: #49 Irenicum
So at least we know Kagan has patience and tact. Good things for a judge.
| 52 |
wee fury Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:57:21pm |
A test. Multiple choice.
Senator Grassley appears to be --
a. drunk
b. a complete ass
c. iowan inarticulated
d. all of the above
| 53 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:57:23pm |
re: #51 calochortus
So at least we know Kagan has patience and tact. Good things for a judge.
She has a well deserved reputation for that.
| 54 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 9:58:26pm |
re: #50 LudwigVanQuixote
Well said. but very dangerous is an understatement. This is a tiger by a tail and the GOP is too short-sighted to see it. Once you whip all that rage, fear and sanctimony - it does not dissipate easily.
True, and the result is often violent.
| 56 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:00:20pm |
re: #55 Irenicum
Wow. Brutal but brilliant.
Thank you! I believe my reputation here is not one of being gentle when it comes to important issues. Hopefully pretty smart too, but I am OK with brutal.
| 57 |
Irenicum Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:04:25pm |
re: #48 LudwigVanQuixote
That's so true with any religious tradition. The practice "on the street" is markedly different than what is taught in the academies across the board, whether Jewish, Christian, Islamic, or any other. In some sense, there is no such thing as religious orthodoxy anymore.
| 58 |
calochortus Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:05:50pm |
Well, I'm off to bed. With luck there won't be any more incredibly stupid things said by politicians before morning, unless they're working in shifts or something. Its hard to keep up with it all.
| 59 |
Irenicum Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:07:32pm |
re: #58 calochortus
You're so hopeful. We need that kind of spirit. Have a good night.
| 60 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:07:38pm |
re: #52 wee fury
A test. Multiple choice.
Senator Grassley appears to be --
a. drunk
b. a complete ass
c. iowan inarticulated
d. all of the above
I pick e: Ron Paul!
| 61 |
kreyagg Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:08:11pm |
| 62 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:09:39pm |
| 63 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:10:01pm |
Kagan's face while he is rambling is fucking priceless.
| 65 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:11:20pm |
re: #61 kreyagg
I still beg to differ.
[Video]
And if you think that there aren't loads of Jews - even observant ones - who are seethingly angry over this kind of crap, you are missing the point and misrepresenting the situation. This situation will not persist.
| 66 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:11:21pm |
re: #56 LudwigVanQuixote
Thank you! I believe my reputation here is not one of being gentle when it comes to important issues. Hopefully pretty smart too, but I am OK with brutal.
You do brutal very well. I just wish it was needed less often. But that doesn't reflect on you. You're just being what the world needs you to be and I respect and admire you for it.
| 67 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:12:35pm |
A prominent polling firm’s work was placed under suspicion today — and Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) may be the biggest beneficiary.
Daily Kos had contracted Research 2000 to conduct weekly polls for its website, but an outside review published by the site shows highly improbable results. Kos founder Markos Moulitsas plans on suing Research 2000 over the allegations.
With all of Research 2000’s survey’s thrown into doubt, Grassley’s re-election bid looks far more secure. In May, Research 2000 showed an increasingly tight race — a margin of eight points — giving hope to Grassley’s Democratic challenger, attorney Roxanne Conlin.
Democrats had latched onto these poll results, hoping to show the incumbent to be vulnerable before the fall election, but if all of Research 2000’s results are discredited, Grassley’s route to re-election looks much smoother. In Rasmussen’s last look at the race, Grassley led Conlin by 17 points, and no other pollster has shown as close a race as Research 2000. Both the Cook Report and CQ rank Grassley’s seat as likely Republican.
| 68 |
kreyagg Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:13:07pm |
re: #62 Walter L. Newton
Ya, there should be a spectrum of grenades with the pins at various stages of being pulled. From Quakers and Jains with the device still in the crate to the 3 major monotheisms with the pins loose nearly out and all the way out.
But I am too lazy to try to make that and it wouldn't fit in 32k
| 69 |
Kruk Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:13:48pm |
re: #63 Fozzie Bear
Kagan's face while he is rambling is fucking priceless.
It's her "I can't wait till I'm a judge and I can tell people that they're acting like ****ing morons when they are" face.
| 70 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:14:22pm |
re: #68 kreyagg
Ya, there should be a spectrum of grenades with the pins at various stages of being pulled. From Quakers and Jains with the device still in the crate to the 3 major monotheisms with the pins loose nearly out and all the way out.
But I am too lazy to try to make that and it wouldn't fit in 32k
So... instead you just opted to misrepresent the majority members of two religions.
| 71 |
Irenicum Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:15:59pm |
re: #61 kreyagg
Wow. I still say that there is such religious diversity in each of the major religions that no settled "orthodoxy" can be ascertained as authoritative. As much as they might like to see this kind of segregation, in NYC (as an example) it ain't gonna happen. It may happen in local venues (such as in some cities in Israel), but it no way represents a whole religion.
| 72 |
Irenicum Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:17:03pm |
re: #62 Walter L. Newton
You're not kidding. And the karma is somewhat telling.
| 73 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:17:18pm |
re: #69 Kruk
It's her "I can't wait till I'm a judge and I can tell people that they're acting like ***ing morons when they are" face.
There is a Douglas Adams quote that I think perfectly captures that face. I'll paraphrase.
"She stared at him as if a small but perfectly formed elderberry tree had suddenly sprung unbidden from the bridge of his nose."
| 74 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:18:21pm |
re: #71 Irenicum
Wow. I still say that there is such religious diversity in each of the major religions that no settled "orthodoxy" can be ascertained as authoritative. As much as they might like to see this kind of segregation, in NYC (as an example) it ain't gonna happen. It may happen in local venues (such as in some cities in Israel), but it no way represents a whole religion.
It isn't even some cities in Israel. It is some neighborhoods. Even in those neighborhoods, there are people who are fed up with such crap.
I know several Israeli women - all well versed in martial arts from the army - who pointedly sit in the front of those busses - in their uniforms and sneer at the yeshiva bochers.
| 75 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:20:19pm |
re: #72 Irenicum
You're not kidding. And the karma is somewhat telling.
No I'm not kidding... the titles on Kreyagg's avatar are offensive, to both Islam and Christianity. And most here know that I don't have a dog (or god if you are dyslexic) in this fight, but that avatar is bigoted and totally false. I think we have a religious bigot on our hands.
| 77 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:20:48pm |
I need to sign off for the night. Sleep well, all.
| 79 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:21:17pm |
| 80 |
Political Atheist Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:21:38pm |
re: #77 Dark_Falcon
Thanks for stopping by the page.
| 82 |
kreyagg Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:31:43pm |
re: #65 LudwigVanQuixote
I'm not claiming otherwise. Orthodoxy exists, they read their Holy book very closely and be... continue with crap everybody knows.
I dislike fundies of all sorts. I don't know any Haredi. I live in Ohio, I barely know any Jewish folk. I do understand that believing in bronze age mythology doesn't make you badre: #70 Walter L. Newton
The point is that the religions are bad. I misrepresent nobody.
Christianity is silly, based on virgin birth and worshiping a zombie.
Islam is based in the hallucinations of an illiterate son of an Arab merchant.
Judaism is based on a bronze age mythology that didn't understand that there were people that lived outside of the Levant and Egypt.
It's all silly nonsense to me.
Lots people believe it in parts or whole but i can't understand why.
I have friends and family that that are religious I still care for and respect them, and I have known other incredibly decent people of faith but I'm certain that they would be the same regardless of their religious indoctrination.
| 83 |
Irenicum Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:33:46pm |
So back to the original post: Does God really want us to pack heat? I, for one, feel so much more comforted by the snuggle of a snub-nose nestled under my pillow as I sleep. Oh wait, that's right, I don't.
| 84 |
freetoken Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:35:06pm |
re: #82 kreyagg
Christianity is silly, based on virgin birth and worshiping a zombie.
Islam is based in the hallucinations of an illiterate son of an Arab merchant.
Judaism is based on a bronze age mythology that didn't understand that there were people that lived outside of the Levant and Egypt.It's all silly nonsense to me.
Your name is Chris Hitchens, is it?
| 85 |
Irenicum Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:35:30pm |
re: #82 kreyagg
Um, you're not helping your cause with this post. Just sayin.
| 86 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:36:32pm |
I'm afraid of Americans
I'm afraid of the world
I'm afraid I can't help it
I'm afraid I can't
| 87 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:36:56pm |
re: #82 kreyagg
I'm not claiming otherwise. Orthodoxy exists, they read their Holy book very closely and be... continue with crap everybody knows.
I dislike fundies of all sorts. I don't know any Haredi. I live in Ohio, I barely know any Jewish folk. I do understand that believing in bronze age mythology doesn't make you badre: #70 Walter L. Newton
The point is that the religions are bad. I misrepresent nobody.
Christianity is silly, based on virgin birth and worshiping a zombie.
Islam is based in the hallucinations of an illiterate son of an Arab merchant.
Judaism is based on a bronze age mythology that didn't understand that there were people that lived outside of the Levant and Egypt.It's all silly nonsense to me.
Lots people believe it in parts or whole but i can't understand why.
I have friends and family that that are religious I still care for and respect them, and I have known other incredibly decent people of faith but I'm certain that they would be the same regardless of their religious indoctrination.
I don't give two shits if they are "silly" to you... you're avatar is not representing "silly," it's representing levels of violence that you are associating with two different religious groups.
And no matter how fucking "silly" they may be to you, your avatar implies that the whole "silly" bunch of Christians or Muslims are violent.
So... if you had enough room on your avatar, would have you represented Judaism with a hand grenade?
| 88 |
boxhead Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:37:26pm |
re: #6 Alouette
If this is driving you to drink, drink Zionist wine.
Does Mogen David 20/20 count?
//
| 89 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:37:53pm |
re: #42 calochortus
There was a study out a few months ago indicating that people think God's opinion mirrors their own. While they honestly believe they are taking their cue from God, when the person's opinion changes, they are likely to think God shares their new opinion. (I'd post a link, but my brain is fried... Nicholas Epley did the study, you can Google it if you're interested.)
Anyway, IMHO that makes God's will a highly suspect rationale for any course of action.
What does God need with a starship?
| 91 |
Irenicum Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:39:19pm |
I'm constantly amazed at how many of these threads end up being about theology. Fascinating.
| 92 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:39:36pm |
| 93 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:39:44pm |
re: #88 boxhead
| 94 |
freetoken Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:39:53pm |
re: #83 Irenicum
So back to the original post: Does God really want us to pack heat?
It is so very strange to me, how people like Grassley can't see the elephant in the room. It reinforces (as do so many other things) that a great deal of the people who go around labeling themselves as "Christian" don't appear as if they have anything to do with the NT Jesus.
| 97 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:42:12pm |
re: #95 Irenicum
Amen. Guinness rules!
My favoritest stout is this stuff: [Link: www.northcoastbrewing.com...]
| 98 |
boxhead Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:43:14pm |
| 99 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:43:29pm |
re: #83 Irenicum
So back to the original post: Does God really want us to pack heat? I, for one, feel so much more comforted by the snuggle of a snub-nose nestled under my pillow as I sleep. Oh wait, that's right, I don't.
It's not a scriptural issue period. And anyone trying to make it out to be, or trying to make some connection, is a fool. I have no problem with none criminals carrying guns. I have no problems with Christians or Jews carrying guns. I have a problem when someone uses religion to make the point. There is no direct religious point.
| 101 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:46:22pm |
| 102 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:46:30pm |
re: #87 Walter L. Newton
Umm we don't use grenades as terror weapons - We use gefilte fish.
| 103 |
boxhead Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:48:33pm |
re: #83 Irenicum
So back to the original post: Does God really want us to pack heat? I, for one, feel so much more comforted by the snuggle of a snub-nose nestled under my pillow as I sleep. Oh wait, that's right, I don't.
The way I understand our Constitution is that it is the only such document that does not grant citizens rights, but rather the citizens, We The People, empower the government certain powers in order form a more perfect Union. So we as people have Rights by default with the understanding that in order to live in a society, we have to let the government regulate some things.
I guess I am saying God is not in the equation.
| 104 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:49:13pm |
re: #102 LudwigVanQuixote
Umm we don't use grenades as terror weapons - We use gefilte fish.
I can't stand gefilte fish... my grandmother use to put it out every New Years and said we had to have a bite... I understand your meaning.
| 105 |
Irenicum Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:49:15pm |
re: #99 Walter L. Newton
I agree. Religious viewpoints don't impact this issue, unless it's a strictly pacifist viewpoint, which I don't hold to. I'd love to, but my own Augustinian views won't let me. We're just too screwed up as a species for me to go there. Sometimes violence is a necessary evil. I'd love it to be otherwise.
| 106 |
Bagua Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:49:33pm |
re: #102 LudwigVanQuixote
Umm we don't use grenades as terror weapons - We use gefilte fish.
That was you?
Where do I mail the dry cleaning bill?
| 107 |
kreyagg Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:50:12pm |
re: #87 Walter L. Newton
So... if you had enough room on your avatar, would have you represented Judaism with a hand grenade?
Absolutely. Again religion is bad. Religion is the entire reason people are killing each other over Jerusalem. It's religion that drives Jews to plant illegal settlements in the West Bank. It's religion that drive Palestinians to resist any Jewish presence in the region.
It's religion that gets the pope to preach and people to believe that condoms are worse than HIV/AIDS.
Religion is the bad guy, not necessarily the people that have been trained to belive it,
| 108 |
Irenicum Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:50:52pm |
re: #102 LudwigVanQuixote
I love kosher food. But please spare me the gefilte fish. I'll take a latke any day.
| 109 |
boxhead Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:51:20pm |
re: #107 kreyagg
Or maybe it is the people who use Religion to do those things that are bad.
| 110 |
Bagua Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:53:10pm |
re: #107 kreyagg
It is illegal for Jews to live in the West Bank? You mean the same as in Jordan?
| 111 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:53:22pm |
re: #107 kreyagg
Absolutely. Again religion is bad. Religion is the entire reason people are killing each other over Jerusalem. It's religion that drives Jews to plant illegal settlements in the West Bank. It's religion that drive Palestinians to resist any Jewish presence in the region.
It's religion that gets the pope to preach and people to believe that condoms are worse than HIV/AIDS.
Religion is the bad guy, not necessarily the people that have been trained to belive it,
Your blanket bigoted observations are simplistic and lacks any critical thinking. How old are you... 12? Asshole.
| 112 |
ryannon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:54:13pm |
re: #100 ryannon
Would Jesus use a Glock and hollow-points?
For throwing the money changers out of the Temple, and sundry shit like that.
| 113 |
kreyagg Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:54:31pm |
re: #109 boxhead
Religion creates the license for the doing of bad things. Do really think that entirely secular people care if you call the city Jerusalem or Al-Quds?
| 114 |
Irenicum Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:54:34pm |
re: #107 kreyagg
I'm curious. Have you not considered the French revolution and it's underlying assumptions?
| 115 |
boxhead Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:56:22pm |
re: #113 kreyagg
Religion creates the license for the doing of bad things. Do really think that entirely secular people care if you call the city Jerusalem or Al-Quds?
Doesn't matter, we as a race can be dumb arsed evil bastages. If there was no religion, we would come up with another reason for being douches..
| 116 |
Bagua Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:57:28pm |
re: #82 kreyagg
... I live in Ohio, I barely know any Jewish folk. ...
You "barely know any Jewish folk" and yet you are here mocking Orthodox Jews and claiming Jews don't have a right to live in parts of Israel?
You seem fascinated with Jews for someone who doesn't know any.
| 117 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:58:37pm |
re: #113 kreyagg
Religion creates the license for the doing of bad things. Do really think that entirely secular people care if you call the city Jerusalem or Al-Quds?
There are totally secular and historical reasons for certain events in history, including what would be a proper name for Jerusalem, and you can't simply (well, you can) isolate the actual history, religiously motivated or not, from the secular history. I will have to amend what I said above. Your simplistic vies also extend to history. Where do you get this stuff... out of some juvenile graphic novel?
| 118 |
ryannon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:59:30pm |
re: #114 Irenicum
Third and final try: The other day, Bagua posted a link to the excellent film by Robert Bresson, "The Diary of a Country Priest", in French with English subtitles here:
[Link: en.gloria.tv...]
I thought it might be of interest to you.
| 119 |
ryannon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 10:59:53pm |
re: #114 Irenicum
I'm curious. Have you not considered the French revolution and it's underlying assumptions?
Bad chemical in the brain.
| 120 |
Irenicum Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:00:25pm |
kreyagg, have you considered that humans are basically finite beings, constrained by their times, limited in their understanding, whether religious or secular? I suspect you presume too much. Please read and live more. And by the way, try living among Jews if you want pontificate about them.
| 121 |
boxhead Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:00:30pm |
| 124 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:03:10pm |
re: #120 Irenicum
kreyagg, have you considered that humans are basically finite beings, constrained by their times, limited in their understanding, whether religious or secular? I suspect you presume too much. Please read and live more. And by the way, try living among Jews if you want pontificate about them.
Ding, ding, ding... off to bed... they'll be plenty of time to deal with Kreyagg... been busy the last week, actually have had some major programming work to do from home... gonna pay for well needed vacation to Paris this winter...
Night all...
| 125 |
kreyagg Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:03:16pm |
re: #116 Bagua
Orthodoxy of all flavors deserves to be mocked.
| 127 |
Irenicum Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:04:08pm |
re: #124 Walter L. Newton
G'nite Walter. A pleasure as always.
| 128 |
ryannon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:04:10pm |
re: #125 kreyagg
Orthodoxy of all flavors deserves to be mocked.
With the exception of Cherry Garcia.
| 129 |
Bagua Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:04:27pm |
re: #125 kreyagg
Orthodoxy of all flavors deserves to be mocked.
Fuck off bigot. You display ignorance.
| 130 |
emcesq Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:05:04pm |
Christ on a crutch! Hearing these posturing preening senate morons almost makes me wonder what has happened to the greatest country on Earth since I got accepted to join up some 30 years ago. Now I understand how my dear post-WW2 eastern European immigrant friend and boss felt when he changed from life-long Republican to registered Democrat a couple of years before he passed on. He and I used to have heated discussions about politics and "how could you do this!" matches. I am embarrased and seriously disappointed and disturbed by this spectacle.
Charles, I never thought I would say this. I am really begining to feel your pain!
| 131 |
ryannon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:05:59pm |
| 134 |
boxhead Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:07:35pm |
| 136 |
ryannon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:08:38pm |
| 137 |
palomino Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:08:53pm |
Kagan is too cautious to really rip Grassley a new one, though he certainly deserves it. So she does what the nominees always do: bobs and weaves like a boxer, not answering anything directly.
| 138 |
boxhead Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:09:13pm |
re: #132 Irenicum
It truly is a weird time we live in.
ditto..... :( We live in a place were a major political party thinks being well educated is bad...
| 139 |
freetoken Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:09:46pm |
re: #128 ryannon
With the exception of Cherry Garcia.
I was going to write "Chocolate Chocolate Chip", but you beat me to the punch line...
| 140 |
ryannon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:10:28pm |
re: #139 freetoken
I was going to write "Chocolate Chocolate Chip", but you beat me to the punch line...
We all have our favorites.
| 143 |
ryannon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:11:49pm |
| 145 |
Irenicum Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:13:04pm |
re: #142 Bagua
Sorry. Haven't paid too much attention yet. I'm guessing I should. Damn, I'm on the spot.
| 146 |
kreyagg Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:13:18pm |
re: #116 Bagua
You seem fascinated with Jews for someone who doesn't know any.
It's a recent interest. I found myself wondering why there isn't either a Palestinian state or why Palestinians aren't voting and placing members in the Knesset in proportion to their votes. It's as simple as that.
I grew up with the standard American education about Isreal, which was basically Jews are good and Palestinians/Muslims are bad terrorists (all of them).
So I start reading Haaretz and listening to the BBC and discover that wow, Israel can do bad things too. Also I learned that somehow you magically hate Isreal and Jews too if you bother to mention that maybe Israel, or Israeli policy rather, is part of the problem too.
| 147 |
Bagua Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:13:38pm |
re: #143 ryannon
The English subs are more than decent. Watch it carefully, and preferably when you can give it your entire attention. 1,200 essay on it due next week.
1,200?? You made me write 2,000. Sheesh. Talk about unfair.
| 148 |
boxhead Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:14:39pm |
| 149 |
Bagua Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:15:43pm |
re: #145 Irenicum
Sorry. Haven't paid too much attention yet. I'm guessing I should. Damn, I'm on the spot.
Watch it at your pleasure, though you can see we both await your input.
| 150 |
ryannon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:15:56pm |
re: #145 Irenicum
Sorry. Haven't paid too much attention yet. I'm guessing I should. Damn, I'm on the spot.
Maybe I'm mixing you up with someone else, but I seem to remember a little crisis of faith a while back. To paraphrase Crocodile Dundee, "You call that a crisis of faith? THIS IS A CRISIS OF FAITH!
| 151 |
ClaudeMonet Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:16:12pm |
re: #82 kreyagg
I'm in Ohio. I'm Jewish. There are sizable Jewish communities in all of the significant cities in the state.
We're here, we're Jews, and we're not going away. We know you, and you may be better off if you know us. By and large, we're educated and sometimes nice.
| 152 |
ryannon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:17:32pm |
re: #148 boxhead
Am I missing something or walking into an already active conversation?
It has to do with Jesus using hollow-points or not.
| 153 |
shai_au Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:17:39pm |
The best part of that video was the confused look on her face.
| 154 |
Bagua Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:18:15pm |
re: #146 kreyagg
It's a recent interest. I found myself wondering why there isn't either a Palestinian state or why Palestinians aren't voting and placing members in the Knesset in proportion to their votes. It's as simple as that.
I grew up with the standard American education about Isreal, which was basically Jews are good and Palestinians/Muslims are bad terrorists (all of them).
So I start reading Haaretz and listening to the BBC and discover that wow, Israel can do bad things too. Also I learned that somehow you magically hate Isreal and Jews too if you bother to mention that maybe Israel, or Israeli policy rather, is part of the problem too.
Those two sites are very biased against Israel. If you were sincerely interested, you would read a variety of sites including those not biased against Israel. For you to pronounce judgements based on such reading shows bad faith.
| 155 |
boxhead Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:18:19pm |
re: #152 ryannon
It has to do with Jesus using hollow-points or not.
ahh... definitely Teflon coated.
| 156 |
ryannon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:19:14pm |
re: #147 Bagua
1,200?? You made me write 2,000. Sheesh. Talk about unfair.
Well, I take it that Irenecum has a busier academic schedule.
| 157 |
Irenicum Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:19:37pm |
re: #146 kreyagg
Your comments so far have illustrated an attitude of deep antagonism towards anything religious and spiritual. You still haven't addressed my concern of the secular counterpart, which has also produced its own sizable body count.
| 158 |
kreyagg Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:19:42pm |
re: #129 Bagua
What is bigoted about mocking orthodoxy?
This is the definition of the word I used.
Main Entry: 1or·tho·dox
Pronunciation: ˈȯr-thə-ˌdäks
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English orthodoxe, from Middle French or Late Latin; Middle French orthodoxe, from Late Latin orthodoxus, from Late Greek orthodoxos, from Greek orth- + doxa opinion — more at doxology
Date: 15th century
1 a : conforming to established doctrine especially in religion b : conventional
| 159 |
Bagua Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:20:49pm |
re: #156 ryannon
Well, I take it that Irenecum has a busier academic schedule.
Story of my life, teachers always pick on me.
| 160 |
ryannon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:21:22pm |
Look! Up in the sky!
It's a bird!
A plane!
No, it's the Overnight Open Thread!
| 161 |
Irenicum Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:22:41pm |
re: #149 Bagua
I just bookmarked it. Will definitely watch in more leisure and review for its content.
| 162 |
Bagua Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:23:40pm |
re: #158 kreyagg
What is bigoted about mocking orthodoxy?
Bigot
Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot
Date: 1660
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
....
You show intolerance for people you have never met and the only information you have about them is from sites who have an agenda to demonise them.
| 163 |
ryannon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:24:16pm |
re: #159 Bagua
Story of my life, teachers always pick on me.
You should have read Thomas a Kempis' "The Imitation of Christ". There's a chapter where you learn about Jesus and hollow-points.
| 164 |
Irenicum Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:24:33pm |
re: #150 ryannon
Oh, I've definitely had my my moments here. Doing better now.
| 165 |
kreyagg Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:25:34pm |
re: #154 Bagua
Haaretz biased against Israel?
[Link: www.haaretz.com...]
What is an unbiased source for the region. Or is occasional criticism automatically biased?
| 166 |
Bagua Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:26:45pm |
re: #163 ryannon
You should have read Thomas a Kempis' "The Imitation of Christ". There's a chapter where you learn about Jesus and hollow-points.
Which chapter? I have it open right here.
| 167 |
ryannon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:27:22pm |
re: #164 Irenicum
Oh, I've definitely had my my moments here. Doing better now.
Glad to hear it.
"The Journal of a Country Priest" is a luminous film - and recommended more for your contemplation than any presumptuous quick fix to whatever existential turbulences you might be experiencing.
| 168 |
ryannon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:28:51pm |
re: #166 Bagua
Which chapter? I have it open right here.
Don't try to wiggle out of it.
It's the chapter you haven't read, obviously.
| 169 |
Irenicum Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:30:10pm |
re: #165 kreyagg
I happen to like Haaretz quite a bit. I lean left on most issues. Never been a fan of J-Post overall, b'c of its Likudnik politics. But what you've posted goes beyond that.
| 170 |
ryannon Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:31:17pm |
I'm off to lay in wait for the unwary upthread.
| 171 |
Irenicum Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:31:20pm |
re: #167 ryannon
Thanks. I look forward to watching the film in more detail.
| 172 |
kreyagg Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:31:33pm |
re: #151 ClaudeMonet
I suffer from not being a sociable person. I make no effort to avoid anyone, just don't make much of an effort to meet anyone either.
| 173 |
darthstar Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:32:20pm |
It's a shitstorm of stupidity. The Republicans are demonstrating how they're going to win this November. Nobody can keep up with all the crap they spew anymore. Rachel Maddow barely has time to take Boehner apart with his own words and there's Grassley talking guns, while Sharron Angle is calling for victims of rape and incest to follow through with God's plan for them to be vessels as well as victims, and RndPaul() is talking about throwing away the 14th Amendment. Where the hell do you start to respond to that? If Democrats try to respond to all of it, they look like paranoid freaks who see conspiracies under every GOP rock, while the conspiracy theorists of the GOP (who really do see conspiracies under every rock) simply laugh and say, "What the hell are they talking about? Let's be reasonable here..." And the public, which isn't paying attention until the big blow-up, just looks and shakes their head and says, "Yes, we're better off with the culture of corruption than the alliance of incompetence."
It's fucking crazy-making.
| 174 |
ClaudeMonet Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:33:32pm |
re: #31 LudwigVanQuixote
It is not possible for an observant Jew to be a modern Republican. Anyone who cares about Torah Law cares for the poor and downtrodden, considers all people to be descended from the same ancestors and created in the image of the same loving creator thus having equally infinite worth (that includes poor people, black people and brown people). People who care about Torah law care about the environment and the instruction of children - education. People who care about Torah Law care about education and respect learning. People who care about Torah Law put strong women on pedestals and don't call them lesbians for being smart and capable - rather they are praised as Eshet Chayil. People who care about Torah Law, hate violence, but use it as a grim necessity to protect and defend - not as a threat to those who we would abuse. People who care about Torah Law do not permit unethical businesses to profit from suffering or dishonesty (BP anyone).
People who care about Torah Law would not be in a political party with those who hold contrary views to those above.
Therefore, if he is Jewish and Republican, he is NOT observant.
I'm sorry, my friend, but you are wrong here. Young Mr. Pollak may be running as a sacrificial lamb so to speak (why else would Alan Dershowitz endorse a Republican?), as I suspect, but IMO he's on to something.
Specifically--
--that there is a place for the politics of engagement;
--that being isolated from "the other side" does not lead to greater understanding;
--that fighting what I assume is a typical Chicago politician's blind eye to corruption demands that one mount the platform, even if it is one that historically has been less than kind to our people;
--that for the Jewish residents of this country to be truly effectively represented, we must not automatically be attached to one party (the reason I became a Republican); and
--that the Republican Party's slide into its current intellectually bankrupt and theocratic state (the reason I left the Republicans) is best fought from within if one is to be active in politics.
Sorry, but the current Republican Party can't simply be wished away. One of the great failings of the Democratic Party over the last forty years is its belief that wishing and hoping will make things the way they want them to be, without regard for reality. For the Republicans to be brought back as a politically intelligent alternative, they need reform from within. Someone has to get their hands dirty.
| 175 |
Bagua Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:35:29pm |
re: #165 kreyagg
Haaretz biased against Israel?
[Link: www.haaretz.com...]
What is an unbiased source for the region. Or is occasional criticism automatically biased?
Haartetz is a hard-left site which has a long history of demonising religious and nationalistic Jews and the military. It is basically a cesspool. Al Jazeera is fairer to Israel as a general rule. At least they are honest about what side they are on.
The BBC is famous for being biased against Israel. Only the Guardian and openly anti-Semetic sites exceed them.
If you are reading about Israel from these sites, on the issues we are discussing, then you are gravitating to highly biased sites.
| 176 |
boxhead Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:35:46pm |
re: #173 darthstar
wow..... that is way evil..... LOL.. Can you imagine the "supposed" meeting?
"Well here is the plan, just be as nutty as possible. The Dems will never have time to respond to all of it and their heads will explode!"
/
| 177 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:36:19pm |
Separation of Church & State, anyone?
| 178 |
darthstar Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:37:03pm |
re: #176 boxhead
wow... that is way evil... LOL.. Can you imagine the "supposed" meeting?
"Well here is the plan, just be as nutty as possible. The Dems will never have time to respond to all of it and their heads will explode!"
/
I'm not saying it's planned...it's just too fucking overwhelming. How can anyone respond to such a high volume of idiocy?
| 179 |
boxhead Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:37:48pm |
re: #178 darthstar
I'm not saying it's planned...it's just too fucking overwhelming. How can anyone respond to such a high volume of idiocy?
I know, but it is amazing.
| 180 |
darthstar Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:39:37pm |
re: #177 eclectic infidel
Separation of Church & State, anyone?
Sharron Angle addressed that today, saying on live TV that it wasn't in the Constitution, and that Thomas Jefferson was quoted out of context.
| 182 |
boxhead Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:41:09pm |
| 183 |
kreyagg Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:41:11pm |
re: #175 Bagua
Haartetz is a hard-left site which has a long history of demonising religious and nationalistic Jews and the military. It is basically a cesspool. Al Jazeera is fairer to Israel as a general rule. At least they are honest about what side they are on.
In what sense is religious nationalism a good thing?
I know you didn't pair them intentionally, but I think the core of how we disagree might be in that neighborhood.
| 184 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:41:24pm |
Did Jesus mention anything about packing heat?
| 185 |
boxhead Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:46:43pm |
re: #184 eclectic infidel
Did Jesus mention anything about packing heat?
Don't know about heat, but what about grenades?
| 186 |
kreyagg Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:49:16pm |
re: #184 eclectic infidel
How else would you kill and beat your misbehaving servants
[Link: www.bibletools.org...]
| 187 |
Bagua Tue, Jun 29, 2010 11:56:30pm |
re: #183 kreyagg
In what sense is religious nationalism a good thing?
I know you didn't pair them intentionally, but I think the core of how we disagree might be in that neighborhood.
Then you are looking for disagreement. The majority of nationalists in Israel are secular. You are reading, and looking for things which reinforce your bigotry. If you sincerely wanted to learn about these issues there are many here that could enlighten you.
Jews have been chased out of the vast lands now dominated by the enemies of Israel. Just the land confiscated from Jews in the Arab lands is about five times the size of Israel. Those Jews who survived the slaughter and persecutions of the last century, are now concentrated on a tiny piece of land the size of New Jersey. They are under constant attack, and repeated invasions with the stated intention of "driving the Jews into the sea."
Neighbouring Jordan is larger than Israel and yet Jews are legally forbidden from owning real estate. In tiny Israel the Jews only want to live peacefully with the Arabs, and the Arabs in Israel enjoy more rights and freedoms then they do in Arab countries.
Israelis can not travel to or do business with much of the Arab word, the same countries which sponsor terrorism and military attacks on Israel. And yet Jews are criticised for wanting to live together with the Arabs in the tiny parcel of land in the center of their tiny state.
| 188 |
Eclectic Infidel Wed, Jun 30, 2010 12:21:00am |
| 189 |
kreyagg Wed, Jun 30, 2010 12:31:22am |
re: #187 Bagua
Ethnic Nationalism is usually just as bad as the religious sort, at least in Israel's case it's understandable and even excusable. But I don't think someones distant ancestry gives them a natural right to a particular spot of land. The Dome of the Rock has been on the Temple Mount in various forms for 1300 years, in your mind do Jews have a special claim of ownership to the Temple Mount? Should it be turned over to a new temple can be built?
Israelis can not travel to or do business with much of the Arab word, the same countries which sponsor terrorism and military attacks on Israel. And yet Jews are criticised for wanting to live together with the Arabs in the tiny parcel of land in the center of their tiny state.
Then why don't Palestinian get to vote in elections for seats in the Knesset?
Or at least why didn't Israel honor the results of the last election in Gaza/West Bank? Yes dealing with Hamas would not be fun but you can't argue that talking with them would give them legitimacy because the election already did that.
If Sinn Fein can sit with the DUP, Israel can talk to a Hamas lead government.
Also, who is going to push Israel into the sea? Even if the surrounding countries actually had the capability the likely cost of winning would be nuclear war.
| 190 |
kreyagg Wed, Jun 30, 2010 12:34:27am |
re: #175 Bagua
Would you really have accepted an article from Al Jazeera as unbiased?
Is it actually possible to be critical of Israel and be fair?
| 191 |
kreyagg Wed, Jun 30, 2010 12:35:15am |
re: #188 eclectic infidel
I always thought that one should ridicule the ridiculous.
| 192 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jun 30, 2010 12:39:15am |
re: #189 kreyagg
Please do try to actually know what you are talking about before writing such inflammatory and factually incorrect stuff.
Arab citizens of Israel do vote in elections and hold seats in the Knesset. The Palestinians are not citizens of Israel. Your attempted gotcha was profoundly stupid.
As to honoring the results of the last election, the results are honored. However, Hamas has refused further elections after their term was up and committed acts of war against Israel. They are treated as a hostile government - because they were dutifully elected, ran on a war campaign and waged war. They have been treated very patiently by any standard except the double standard applied to Israel.
I've been reviewing this thread and I am becoming appalled by what seems to be nothing more than an ignorant attempt at trolling on your part.
| 193 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Jun 30, 2010 12:42:24am |
Seriously, the right to bear arms comes from God even though guns have only been around 500 years tops but using the government to help the poor is evil socialism. Seriously, it's crap like this that explains why I want to little to do with organized religion.
| 194 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jun 30, 2010 12:48:18am |
re: #193 HappyWarrior
Seriously, the right to bear arms comes from God even though guns have only been around 500 years tops but using the government to help the poor is evil socialism. Seriously, it's crap like this that explains why I want to little to do with organized religion.
Just don't forget that actual follower of Abrahamic religion believe that G-d is appalled by violence and commands that you help the poor.
| 195 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jun 30, 2010 12:48:46am |
re: #191 kreyagg
I always thought that one should ridicule the ridiculous.
So then you will get a great deal of ridicule shortly.
| 196 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jun 30, 2010 12:49:20am |
re: #190 kreyagg
Would you really have accepted an article from Al Jazeera as unbiased?
Is it actually possible to be critical of Israel and be fair?
Only if your facts are correct and you are not spouting the talking points of her enemies.
| 197 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Jun 30, 2010 12:53:12am |
re: #194 LudwigVanQuixote
Just don't forget that actual follower of Abrahamic religion believe that G-d is appalled by violence and commands that you help the poor.
Yeah I know. I just get sick and tired of these loud idiots who use religion to persecute gays, women, and others yet when people suggest we help the poor they call you a socialist. It's frustrating just like how the word liberal has been made in to a perjoative over the years.
| 198 |
freetoken Wed, Jun 30, 2010 1:03:36am |
re: #193 HappyWarrior
Seriously, the right to bear arms comes from God even though guns have only been around 500 years tops...
Says who? You, who is immersed in naturalistic materialism? Don't you know that Adam had a gun, or at least the knowledge to build one? How do you think Adam hunted all those dinosaurs into extinction, with a slingshot?
| 199 |
kreyagg Wed, Jun 30, 2010 1:04:04am |
re: #196 LudwigVanQuixote
So has the Israeli government or the IDF ever done anything to Palestinians that could be considered "wrong" or immoral? Could you state an instance?
| 200 |
Bagua Wed, Jun 30, 2010 1:12:11am |
re: #199 kreyagg
So has the Israeli government or the IDF ever done anything to Palestinians that could be considered "wrong" or immoral? Could you state an instance?
You show a bizarre fascination with Israel based entirely on misinformation and a very limited understanding of facts. Yet you are quite passionate in your beliefs and readily repeat shallow talking points.
Bigot
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
| 201 |
kreyagg Wed, Jun 30, 2010 1:17:22am |
re: #196 LudwigVanQuixote
Yes Hamas wasn't going to participate in the elections, though they should. Why has Abbas called off the elections for the West Bank? What would happen if Hamas won another election anyway? More sanctions? More isolation, that pretty clearly works in Hamas' favor.
The Palestinians deserve the government that they elect and the extremists on both sides of the fence have no interest in settling anything.
| 202 |
Bagua Wed, Jun 30, 2010 1:20:56am |
re: #199 kreyagg
So has the Israeli government or the IDF ever done anything to Palestinians that could be considered "wrong" or immoral? Could you state an instance?
Why should he answer your display of ignorance and bias?
You displayed a similar attitude in the thread about the Flotilla thugs who ambushed the Israeli marines.
I see people trying to ward off an unwarranted attack in international waters with improvised weapons.
Glenn Greenwald and Norman Finkelstein would probably better at defending the legitimacy of the Palestinian government than I, but why would bother considering their points of view when you apparently must always unquestioningly support Israel.
Why are you so passionately interested in Israel and able to quote its most biased critics and standard anti-Israel talking point?
| 203 |
kreyagg Wed, Jun 30, 2010 1:27:17am |
re: #200 Bagua
Should I take that as you answering "No" to my question?
If I agree that Israel should exist where it is, and I have, but I have a problem with some of the actions taken by the Israeli government and army is that bigotry?
Have I claimed that Hamas or even Palestinians in general are all innocent victims?
| 204 |
kreyagg Wed, Jun 30, 2010 1:48:37am |
re: #202 Bagua
The reflexive defense of anything really bothers me. And that's what I largely see when issues involving Israel-Palestine come up here. Most other subjects that come up get discussed but it seems that it isn't possible to wonder if Israel maybe isn't 100% right.
I agree with 95% of what I read here or in the comments, maybe not agree but at least understand opposing view points. It's this subject that seems impenetrable, it's all or nothing.
As far as my referring to Greenwald and Finkelstein, they appeal because they represent clear opposing viewpoint to Fox News on the subject and specifically because they have argued in defense of the Palestinian government. I still can't defend Hamas and Fattah is not much better.
| 205 |
Subroutine Wed, Jun 30, 2010 5:14:09am |
I don't know which god you refer to, Senator, but the god I'm familiar with gives a great deal more evidence for granting the right to own other people than the right to own guns.
| 206 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jun 30, 2010 5:49:59am |
re: #205 Subroutine
I don't know which god you refer to, Senator, but the god I'm familiar with gives a great deal more evidence for granting the right to own other people than the right to own guns.
And even then you need to be very careful. The word "slave" as used, and wrongly translated in the King James Bible does not at all mean slave when you are discussing the various forms of indenture practiced in ancient Israel. It was a means to pay off debts and there were strict standards in plce for the care of indentured servants. It was not chattel slavery at all.
| 207 |
Subroutine Wed, Jun 30, 2010 6:54:34am |
re: #205 Subroutine
I don't know which god you refer to, Senator, but the god I'm familiar with gives a great deal more evidence for granting the right to own other people than the right to own guns.
And even then you need to be very careful. The word "slave" as used, and wrongly translated in the King James Bible does not at all mean slave when you are discussing the various forms of indenture practiced in ancient Israel. It was a means to pay off debts and there were strict standards in plce for the care of indentured servants. It was not chattel slavery at all.
-----------------------------------------
No...not chattel at all...practically members of the family.
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
| 208 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jun 30, 2010 8:24:21am |
re: #207 Subroutine
What you posted is 1. poorly translated. 2. In the absence of the Oral tradition.
The actual Jewish law in ancient times is not what you are reading.
| 209 |
KingKenrod Wed, Jun 30, 2010 8:48:41am |
re: #30 Killgore Trout
But seriously, the important factor here is that the question is so bizarre that a serious legal scholar has never even considered it before. I've heard this same argument in the past from many of our now flounced ex-lizards. The concept that right our rights are dictated by divine entity instead of the Constitution has now reached the top of the Republican party. There is no other word for this than Theocracy. It's very dangerous.
I guess I don't understand the hub-bub over this. This is an old question.
In McDonald vs. Chicago, the majority summarizes:
Self-defense is a basic right, recognized by many legal systems from ancient times to the present...The need for defense of self, family and property is most acute in the home...this right applies to handguns because they are 'the most preferred firearm in the nation to "keep" and use for protection of one's home and family."
Grassley did not use the word "God" in this clip. He used the word "Creator" once, quoting the DoI. "Creator" could mean a divine entity, or could mean nature, even an entirely mechanistic one. This is a very old, and very settled, question.
I don't know too much about Grassley, but I'm sure he believes in a Christian creator; from a legal standpoint, the nature of the creator doesn't matter.
Grassley asks whether the right existed before the Constitution. The US Supreme Court just said it did. You may disagree with that, but to suggest the question has no merit is ridiculous.
BTW, Kagan agrees with the point Grassley is making at the end - the 2nd amendment codifies a "fundamental right", which McDonald vs. Chicago confirmed.
| 210 |
Michael McBacon Wed, Jun 30, 2010 8:52:42am |
I'm an Iowan and may have just lost all respect for Senator Grassley.
| 211 |
Subroutine Wed, Jun 30, 2010 10:08:46am |
To: KingKenrod (209)
I disagree. It appears to me that the fundamental right to “self defense” and gun ownership are being conflated…deliberately by Grassley. While the right to self-defense may be a natural right, it does not necessarily follow that gun ownership is the only or best means for its advancement. It may be that a significant number of people may choose to rely solely on a police force or some other means of self defense. I am not advocating for or against either position…I only suggest that there are two, distinctly, separate arguments to be debated.
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