‘Climategate’ Scientist Completely Exonerated: ‘No Substance’ To Allegations

Environment • Views: 3,721

Michael Mann, one of the climate scientists outrageously smeared in the year’s most bogus scandal (“Climategate” - ugh) and also known as one of the main researchers behind the “hockey stick” global warming graph, has now been completely cleared of “scientific misconduct,” in an exhaustive two-part investigation by Penn State.

Just out: Pennsylvania State University has completed the second half of a two-part investigation of Michael Mann’s role in the so-called “Climategate” affair. The 2-month inquiry has found that Mann is innocent of the remaining charge of scientific misconduct that had been raised by e-mails uncovered in November. The full report is here. Its conclusion:

… the Investigatory Committee determined that Dr. Michael E. Mann did not engage in, nor did he participate in, directly or indirectly, any actions that seriously deviated from accepted practices within the academic community … .

A previous investigation found him innocent of suppressing data, deleting e-mails, and misusing confidential information.

(Hat tip: freetoken.)

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383 comments
1 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 1:56:15pm

And still, nobody is in trouble for hacking the email account, that I have heard of. Apparently, identity theft isn't a problem at all to the right wing.

2 Kragar  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 1:57:41pm

But what about those cherry picked statements from an anonymous source who broke in and stole data?

///

3 Kragar  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 1:58:24pm

re: #1 Fozzie Bear

And still, nobody is in trouble for hacking the email account, that I have heard of. Apparently, identity theft isn't a problem at all to the right wing.

Its actually a paying job amongst Wingnuts nowadays,

4 Soap_Man  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:00:37pm

Obviously, Penn State is in on the conspiracy.

We don't know how deep the rabbit hole goes!!

___/ (hockey stick sarc tag)

5 webevintage  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:00:56pm

re: #1 Fozzie Bear

And still, nobody is in trouble for hacking the email account, that I have heard of. Apparently, identity theft isn't a problem at all to the right wing.

Nope, only if you figure out Palin's passwords because, well, she used stupid passwords and make her email public.
Then it is a crime.

6 Kragar  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:02:06pm

re: #5 webevintage

Nope, only if you figure out Palin's passwords because, well, she used stupid passwords and make her email public.
Then it is a crime.

The password was 12345? Thats like something an idiot would use on his luggage.

7 celticdragon  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:04:11pm

Any bets on how this will not be picked up by Drudge, Malkin, Mary Katherine Hamm, the Fox News bimbettes, Instapundit or any other right leaning news source?

8 webevintage  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:04:42pm

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The password was 12345? Thats like something an idiot would use on his luggage.

Palin E-mail Hacker Reveals How He Got In: By Having A Working Brain
[Link: wonkette.com...]

9 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:07:41pm

re: #8 webevintage

Palin E-mail Hacker Reveals How He Got In: By Having A Working Brain
[Link: wonkette.com...]

Lol.
A crime, but...
LOL.

10 Kragar  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:08:09pm

re: #8 webevintage

Palin E-mail Hacker Reveals How He Got In: By Having A Working Brain
[Link: wonkette.com...]

Well, that puts him one up on most of the current GOP.

11 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:11:49pm

good news...the bad news is that a huge amount of damage was done, and how do scientists overcome this PR nightmare?

12 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:12:55pm

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The password was 12345? Thats like something an idiot would use on his luggage.

I used 54321 on mine because I knew 12345 was too easy.

13 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:14:30pm

re: #1 Fozzie Bear

And still, nobody is in trouble for hacking the email account, that I have heard of. Apparently, identity theft isn't a problem at all to the right wing.

IIRC, the emails were leaked on a server in Russia. Not sure how the "right-wing" is supposed to investigate that. Hmm... send spies or nukes? Tough call.
/

14 Batman  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:15:31pm

Of course socialmalist alarmists would exonerate him!
/

15 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:16:02pm

re: #13 Slumbering Behemoth

IIRC, the emails were leaked on a server in Russia. Not sure how the "right-wing" is supposed to investigate that. Hmm... send spies or nukes? Tough call.
/

The email server wasn't in Russia. Servers generally log IP addresses. I would bet a testicle that the leaker was American.

16 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:16:06pm

Mann has made a couple of errors in his analysis, but they were certainly not an attempt at fraud.

17 Jack Burton  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:17:10pm

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The password was 12345? Thats like something an idiot would use on his luggage.

Who made that man a gunner?

18 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:17:33pm

re: #1 Fozzie Bear

And still, nobody is in trouble for hacking the email account, that I have heard of. Apparently, identity theft isn't a problem at all to the right wing.

huh? Only the "right wing" has prosecutors?

19 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:17:42pm

re: #14 nonsense

Of course socialmalist alarmists would exonerate him!
/

Was that intentional or a typo? It immediately made me think of this.

20 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:19:15pm

re: #7 celticdragon

Any bets on how this will not be picked up by Drudge, Malkin, Mary Katherine Hamm, the Fox News bimbettes, Instapundit or any other right leaning news source?

I'm sure CBS, CNN, NBC and ABC will lead with it tonight

umm,, then again ,,,,

21 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:19:21pm

re: #19 Slumbering Behemoth

Was that intentional or a typo? It immediately made me think of this.

It's a Homerism.

22 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:20:00pm

re: #15 Fozzie Bear

The email server wasn't in Russia. Servers generally log IP addresses. I would bet a testicle that the leaker was American.

Wow. I sure as hell would bet such high stakes. I doubt we'll ever know for sure, but there are people all over the world who would absolutely love to smear anything to do with AGW or climate change science.

23 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:20:39pm

re: #21 b_sharp

It's a Homerism.

so for all us that don't watch TV...what the hell is a socialmalist?

24 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:21:47pm

re: #22 Slumbering Behemoth

Wow. I sure as hell would bet such high stakes. I doubt we'll ever know for sure, but there are people all over the world who would absolutely love to smear anything to do with AGW or climate change science.

AGW is dead right now as a political movement

25 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:21:55pm

re: #18 sattv4u2

huh? Only the "right wing" has prosecutors?

You miss my point.

Hacking email accounts is identity theft. It's immoral and illegal. And it is somehow not at all part of the narrative to the right. The story is the bullshit allegation that the data was fraudulent. The data was not only legitimate, but the way in which the code was stolen is no big whoop to those attempting to smear the good name of these scientists.

26 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:22:17pm

re: #23 albusteve

"Socialist Animal" is the first thing that popped into my brain, which of course led my brain directly to "Animal Farm".

27 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:22:25pm

re: #24 albusteve

AGW is dead right now as a political movement

Only to morons. The rest of us think its a pretty huge deal.

28 Kragar  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:22:43pm

Angle Drops Key Positions From Campaign Site

Nevada Republican Senate candidate Sharron Angle underwent a makeover of sorts Thursday, unveiling a new website that all but eliminated some of the political positions that propelled her to victory in the primary election.

29 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:23:01pm

re: #26 Slumbering Behemoth

"Socialist Animal" is the first thing that popped into my brain, which of course led my brain directly to "Animal Farm".

okay

30 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:23:47pm

re: #24 albusteve

AGW is dead right now as a political movement

Yup, just like Evilution //

31 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:24:15pm

re: #25 Fozzie Bear

It's not identity theft unless identities were stolen and used. I'd say it's more akin to breaking and entering or burglary.

32 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:24:17pm

re: #25 Fozzie Bear

You miss my point.

Hacking email accounts is identity theft. It's immoral and illegal. And it is somehow not at all part of the narrative to the right. The story is the bullshit allegation that the data was fraudulent. The data was not only legitimate, but the way in which the code was stolen is no big whoop to those attempting to smear the good name of these scientists.

I understand and agree with that.
SO
That stated, if Apparently, identity theft isn't a problem at all to the right wing (a statement not based in fact, but lets say it's so) why doesn't someone on the "left" prosecute it?

33 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:25:22pm

re: #27 Fozzie Bear

Only to morons. The rest of us think its a pretty huge deal.

morons?...here we go again, sweeping away people that disagree with you...I'd like to think of them as ill informed, which is what the attack against AGW was all about...creating confusion and doubt

34 Kragar  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:25:27pm

re: #30 b_sharp

Yup, just like Evilution //

Aint nothing 'bout no global warming in the good book, and when the end times comes, Baby Jesus will Rapture all the good people out anyways.

//

35 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:27:54pm

re: #34 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

That sounds like good ol' James Watt. "God gave us DOMINION over the earth, so we've gotta do whatever we damn well please!"

36 Reginald Perrin  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:28:37pm

re: #24 albusteve

AGW is dead right now as a political movement

AGW was never a political movement, it was science that was politicized by the right and their astro-turf spin machine.

37 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:29:34pm

re: #31 Slumbering Behemoth

It's not identity theft unless identities were stolen and used. I'd say it's more akin to breaking and entering or burglary.

You can't enter someone else's email account without using their identity.

38 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:29:39pm

re: #23 albusteve

so for all us that don't watch TV...what the hell is a socialmalist?

Homer from the Simpsons just adds nonsense syllables to words he is unfamiliar with. Nonsense was just caricaturizing the denialist right's response.

39 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:30:46pm

re: #36 Reginald Perrin

AGW was never a political movement, it was science that was politicized by the right and their astro-turf spin machine.

I didn't know what else to call it....referring to legislation etc...no tthe best wordage

40 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:31:04pm

re: #33 albusteve

morons?...here we go again, sweeping away people that disagree with you...I'd like to think of them as ill informed, which is what the attack against AGW was all about...creating confusion and doubt

You can disagree with a policy. Disagreeing with what amounts to scientific fact is moronic.

41 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:32:00pm

re: #40 Fozzie Bear

Or contrarian baggery >>

42 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:32:05pm

re: #38 b_sharp

Homer from the Simpsons just adds nonsense syllables to words he is unfamiliar with. Nonsense was just caricaturizing the denialist right's response.

I'd probably be a smarter person if I watched Homer....seems like my kinda guy

43 Gus  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:32:53pm

Climategate fail!

Wingnut heads explode.

44 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:32:54pm

re: #32 sattv4u2

I understand and agree with that.
SO
That stated, if Apparently, identity theft isn't a problem at all to the right wing (a statement not based in fact, but lets say it's so) why doesn't someone on the "left" prosecute it?

I meant to make two separate points. A line break would have helped in my original post.

Someone should investigate it every bit as vigorously as the Palin hacker was investigated, imo.

45 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:33:16pm

re: #37 Fozzie Bear

You can't enter someone else's email account without using their identity.

Yes, you can. There are many different methods, really. And you don't need to get into someone's personal email account to access emails. Hacking into their email server will do just fine.

46 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:33:59pm

re: #44 Fozzie Bear

I meant to make two separate points. A line break would have helped in my original post.

Someone should investigate it every bit as vigorously as the Palin hacker was investigated, imo.

Thanks for the clarification. But (and last time) stating that Apparently, identity theft isn't a problem at all to the right wing is incorrect at best

47 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:34:10pm

re: #42 albusteve

I'd probably be a smarter person if I watched Homer...seems like my kinda guy

Homer is graphic proof that sometimes two wrongs can make a right. I aspire to be just like him when I grow up.

48 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:34:20pm

re: #40 Fozzie Bear

You can disagree with a policy. Disagreeing with what amounts to scientific fact is moronic.

your morons have no clue...now that you have condemned them, how exactly would you enlighten them?...or would you even want to?...this whole dustup up wasn't for nothing

49 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:34:37pm

re: #43 Gus 802

Climategate fail!

Wingnut heads explode.

Think someone will catch it on tape?

50 Gus  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:35:29pm

re: #36 Reginald Perrin

AGW was never a political movement, it was science that was politicized by the right and their astro-turf spin machine.

Don't forget the sub-genius "Lord" Monckton.

51 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:35:46pm

re: #46 sattv4u2

Thanks for the clarification. But (and last time) stating that Apparently, identity theft isn't a problem at all to the right wing is incorrect at best

Find me any reference to the hacking of the email account being wrong on any source that claims that the climate data was fudged. It isn't even part of that narrative.

52 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:37:02pm

re: #43 Gus 802

Climategate fail!

Wingnut heads explode.

well now there are multitudes of moderate morons that do not believe the science because they have become jaded from the bickering, the cap and trade threat, Gore making millions...what of all the people that are not wingnuts?

53 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:37:04pm

re: #51 Fozzie Bear

your mistake is that it wasn't hacked, but rather was leaked by a concerned scientest!!!!1!! :D

54 Kragar  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:37:08pm

Varek, you'll appreciate this;

Just to give you an idea on how bad Twilight is, It makes Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines work together to get rid of it.

If you know anything about Warhammer 40k you'll realize how big this is.

Posted on 7/1/2010 2:28 PM GodofWar

And that is why you're still a virgin.

Posted on 7/1/2010 2:30 PM LtKael

55 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:37:22pm

re: #51 Fozzie Bear

Find me any reference to the hacking of the email account being wrong on any source that claims that the climate data was fudged. It isn't even part of that narrative.

way to move the goalposts! Thats not even close to your Apparently, identity theft isn't a problem at all to the right wing statement

56 Racer X  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:37:27pm

In more important news: The greatest coach in NBA history, Phil Jackson, has agreed to return to The Lakers next year in pursuit of another 3-peat.

Yeah Baby!

57 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:37:49pm

re: #51 Fozzie Bear

Find me any reference to the hacking of the email account being wrong on any source that claims that the climate data was fudged. It isn't even part of that narrative.

The fudge pushers consider the hacker to be a hero.

58 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:38:27pm

re: #56 Racer X

In more important news: The greatest coach in NBA history, Phil Jackson, has agreed to return to The Lakers next year in pursuit of another 3-peat.

Yeah Baby!

sports first trillionaire?

59 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:38:36pm

re: #56 Racer X

In more important news: The SECOND greatest coach in NBA history, Phil Jackson, has agreed to return to The Lakers next year in pursuit of another 3-peat.

Yeah Baby!


the list of "greatest" starts and ends with Red Auerbach

60 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:39:34pm

re: #28 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Angle Drops Key Positions From Campaign Site

Social Security, DoE and Yucca Mountain.

61 allegro  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:40:18pm

re: #52 albusteve

well now there are multitudes of moderate morons that do not believe the science because they have become jaded from the bickering, the cap and trade threat, Gore making millions...what of all the people that are not wingnuts?

If they continue to choose to ignore the vast amount of science then they will continue to be willful morons. Is there a AGW denier who isn't a wingnut?

I there some kind of Godwin law for Gore's name being pointlessly brought up in any discussion on AGW?

62 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:40:34pm

eh,, BBL ,,,son just got home from a 4 day community service/ church trip

63 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:40:43pm

re: #48 albusteve

your morons have no clue...now that you have condemned them, how exactly would you enlighten them?...or would you even want to?...this whole dustup up wasn't for nothing

How can you enlighten people who will deny that the dominant species on the surface of the planet can affect the climate? How can you argue intelligently with people who will deny that trillions of tons of a gaseous insulator being released into the atmosphere might have a net warming effect? How do you reason with those who will ignore a mountain of evidence because there may be a minor issue with the data?

If you can find a way to convince them of the obvious, please, let us all know. In the meantime, i'll continue to call those who deny the obvious morons.

You know, morons.

64 Gus  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:42:29pm

re: #52 albusteve

well now there are multitudes of moderate morons that do not believe the science because they have become jaded from the bickering, the cap and trade threat, Gore making millions...what of all the people that are not wingnuts?

Right. Science by polling. Heck, most Americans are creationists. 2nd to Turkey at about 60 percent.

Cap and trade isn't AGW science. That's policy. In fact many people that are behind AGW science oppose cap and trade.

OK, the make it (insert politically correct noun here) heads explode.

Oh, and thanks for bringing up Al Gore, again. And again, and again, and again.

65 Gus  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:43:44pm

re: #61 allegro

If they continue to choose to ignore the vast amount of science then they will continue to be willful morons. Is there a AGW denier who isn't a wingnut?

I there some kind of Godwin law for Gore's name being pointlessly brought up in any discussion on AGW?

Amazing isn't it? It's almost Pavlovian. Introduce an AGW topic and the "dog responds by secreting Al Gore memes."

/

66 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:43:46pm

re: #64 Gus 802

Now that Byrd is dead, they have to mention Someone!

67 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:44:14pm

re: #61 allegro

If they continue to choose to ignore the vast amount of science then they will continue to be willful morons. Is there a AGW denier who isn't a wingnut?
I there some kind of Godwin law for Gore's name being pointlessly brought up in any discussion on AGW?

Nick Minchin

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

he made the top 5

[Link: newmatilda.com...]

68 Gus  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:44:29pm

re: #66 windsagio

Now that Byrd is dead, they have to mention Someone!

What's going to happen when George Soros dies?

69 elizajane  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:44:46pm

I hope that the good people of Pennsylvania are satisfied that their state education tax dollars have been put to good use pursuing this enormous, multi-part investigation.

70 Racer X  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:44:49pm

re: #59 sattv4u2

the list of "greatest" starts and ends with Red Auerbach

As a coach, he won 938 games (a record at his retirement)[1] and nine National Basketball Association (NBA) championships (surpassed only by Phil Jackson).

Its all about the rings baby!

71 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:45:12pm

re: #68 Gus 802

That's the seventh seal.

72 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:45:26pm

re: #61 allegro

If they continue to choose to ignore the vast amount of science then they will continue to be willful morons. Is there a AGW denier who isn't a wingnut?

I there some kind of Godwin law for Gore's name being pointlessly brought up in any discussion on AGW?

Godwin? good grief are you obtuse....where is this vast amount of science and how do your morons access it with ordinary language they can understand?...TV shows?..these people need to be helped to understand, not ridiculed as wingnut morons....that shit only goes so far and becomes part of the problem and not the solution...congratulations for alienating people

73 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:45:52pm

re: #52 albusteve

well now there are multitudes of moderate morons that do not believe the science because they have become jaded from the bickering, the cap and trade threat, Gore making millions...what of all the people that are not wingnuts?

Gore making millions is capitalism at its best. His organizations are being used to promote alternative energy sources. The fastest way to get humans to adopt new ideas is to make the old ideas overly expensive. Since AGW is somewhat in the future, we need to repackage the message to one of energy independence which can be made to look more immediate.

74 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:47:01pm

At this point, Mann's work is possibly the most scrutinized research in scientific history. This was hardly the first assault on him by wingnuts with political pull.

But consider this:

After review, after review, his work stands and has only been further corroborated by other studies.

HE IS TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT AGW AND THE WINGNUTS ARE TOO STUPID TO SEE THAT THEY HAVE HELPED PROVE THE OTHER SIDE.

75 Gus  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:47:10pm

re: #67 sattv4u2

Nick Minchin

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

he made the top 5

[Link: newmatilda.com...]

Nick Minchin, tobacco "skeptic" and a member of Australia's Liberal Party. He thinks AGW is a "leftist conspiracy."

76 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:47:25pm

re: #64 Gus 802

Right. Science by polling. Heck, most Americans are creationists. 2nd to Turkey at about 60 percent.

Cap and trade isn't AGW science. That's policy. In fact many people that are behind AGW science oppose cap and trade.

OK, the make it (insert politically correct noun here) heads explode.

Oh, and thanks for bringing up Al Gore, again. And again, and again, and again.

people are interested in Gore...he's a lightening rod for AGW, it's not my thing it's his....why can't he be brought up in the context of my post?....what bothers you about that?

77 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:47:34pm

re: #69 elizajane

I hope that the good people of Pennsylvania are satisfied that their state education tax dollars have been put to good use pursuing this enormous, multi-part investigation.

Are you implying that institutions of higher learning should not involve themselves in science?

wow

78 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:47:53pm

re: #74 ludwigvanquixote

But it did some shortterm 'good'!

79 Gus  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:48:02pm

re: #76 albusteve

people are interested in Gore...he's a lightening rod for AGW, it's not my thing it's his...why can't he be brought up in the context of my post?...what bothers you about that?

Doesn't bother me. I was looking for some humor this afternoon.

Al Gore!!11ty

80 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:48:27pm

re: #73 b_sharp

Gore making millions is capitalism at its best. His organizations are being used to promote alternative energy sources. The fastest way to get humans to adopt new ideas is to make the old ideas overly expensive. Since AGW is somewhat in the future, we need to repackage the message to one of energy independence which can be made to look more immediate.

exactly, and by default national security

81 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:48:48pm

re: #75 Gus 802

Nick Minchin, tobacco "skeptic" and a member of Australia's Liberal Party. He thinks AGW is a "leftist conspiracy."

You know as soon as someone is a tobacco skeptic or an evolution skeptic or for that matter an AGW skeptic, you know you are dealing with a loon or a paid political shill.

Real scientists are no longer skeptical about tobacco being bad for you, or evolution or AGW.

82 allegro  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:49:18pm

re: #67 sattv4u2

Minchin has been a strong proponent of privatisation and wholesale labour market deregulation. He has defended the full privatisation of Telstra, and argued that the Commonwealth should sell its Telstra shares to buy a portfolio of other income-earning investments rather than spend the profits on national infrastructure.

Minchin claimed the tobacco industry was over-regulated.

A 2009 article in The Australian drew parallels between his stance on tobacco and his stance as a climate change skeptic.

"As Tony [Abbott] observed on one occasion, 'climate change is crap', or if you consider his mentor, Senator Minchin, the world is not warming, it's cooling and the climate change issue is part of a vast left-wing conspiracy to deindustrialise the world"

As I asked, is there an AGW denier who isn't a wingnut?

83 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:49:43pm

re: #11 albusteve

good news...the bad news is that a huge amount of damage was done, and how do scientists overcome this PR nightmare?

By doing their job and ignoring idiots who keep spreading the meme that a huge amount of damage was done. Especially since they're the same jackasses who screamed fraud and tried to do as much damage as possible in the first place.

84 zora  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:49:55pm

re: #68 Gus 802

he will pass the torch to obama.
/

85 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:50:26pm

re: #82 allegro

As I asked, is there an AGW denier who isn't a wingnut?

ah, I think it's safe to say yes....probably millions

86 elizajane  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:50:58pm

re: #77 Fozzie Bear

Are you implying that institutions of higher learning should not involve themselves in science?

wow

No, I'm implying that the investigation was instigated by fanatics and cost loads of time and money to confirm research that had already been confirmed by other studies and reviews.

87 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:51:09pm

What's up Fightie McSnorty!

88 Gus  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:51:09pm

re: #83 goddamnedfrank

By doing their job and ignoring idiots who keep spreading the meme that a huge amount of damage was done. Especially since they're the same jackasses who screamed fraud and tried to do as much damage as possible in the first place.

Just don't mention the PR nightmare for the "Drill Here, Drill Now" cult via the Gulf of Mexico disaster.

89 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:51:17pm

re: #73 b_sharp

Since AGW is somewhat in the future,

Tell that to those who perished in India and Pakistan when they had sustained temperatures over 128 F for several days. AGW is happening now.

90 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:51:52pm

re: #83 goddamnedfrank

By doing their job and ignoring idiots who keep spreading the meme that a huge amount of damage was done. Especially since they're the same jackasses who screamed fraud and tried to do as much damage as possible in the first place.

have to go around them...they are entrenched and immovable....make it a national security issue as well as an economic issue....taking them head on is a loser imo

91 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:52:20pm

Celebrity honor killing?
Harry Potter actress' family charged over kill threats

The father and brother of an actress who starred in Harry Potter have been charged with threatening to kill her at her home in Manchester.

Afshan Azad, 22, was cast as Padma Patil, a classmate of the child wizard in the film series.

Abdul Azad, 54, and his son Ashraf, 28, are alleged to have threatened her at her Longsight home. The 28-year-old is also accused of assaulting his sister.

Both men appeared at Manchester Magistrates' Court on Tuesday.

The case was adjourned until July 12 for committal proceedings to Manchester Crown Court.

Miss Azad first appeared as her character - the identical twin sister of Parvati Patil - in Harry Potter And The Goblet Of Fire

She will also feature in Harry Potter And The Deathly Hallows, the final film in the saga.

92 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:52:26pm

re: #86 elizajane

No, I'm implying that the investigation was instigated by fanatics and cost loads of time and money to confirm research that had already been confirmed by other studies and reviews.

Ok. I read that as sarcasm. My apologies.

As a Pennsylvanian, I consider it a good use of my tax dollars. Of course, I'd be happier if it weren't necessary.

93 Reginald Perrin  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:53:47pm

re: #74 ludwigvanquixote


HE IS TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT AGW AND THE WINGNUTS ARE TOO STUPID TO SEE THAT THEY HAVE HELPED PROVE THE OTHER SIDE.

The right and their astro-turf spin machine aren't forward looking. Their main objective is to win the current news cycle. They will generate new spin to counter any setback they experience, they have the equivalent of perpetual motion with regards to news spin.

94 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:54:21pm

Glenn Beck is gonna be pissed....


FDR Rated Best President In Survey Of 238 Scholars

95 Gus  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:54:40pm

re: #94 Killgore Trout

Glenn Beck is gonna be pissed...

FDR Rated Best President In Survey Of 238 Scholars

Socialism!!11ty

96 allegro  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:54:52pm

re: #85 albusteve

re: #82 allegro

As I asked, is there an AGW denier who isn't a wingnut?

ah, I think it's safe to say yes...probably millions

Since the only ones pushing the denialist crap is wingnut media, I really doubt that.

97 Soap_Man  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:56:04pm

re: #94 Killgore Trout

Glenn Beck is gonna be pissed...

FDR Rated Best President In Survey Of 238 Scholars

Phht. Yeah. Socialist scholars.

98 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:56:06pm

re: #96 allegro

Since the only ones pushing the denialist crap is wingnut media, I really doubt that.

think what you want, you sound plenty elitist, discounting all the millions of people that are simply out of touch

99 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:56:15pm

re: #94 Killgore Trout

Glenn Beck is gonna be pissed...

FDR Rated Best President In Survey Of 238 Scholars

Beck is going to LOVE this. It plays into his anti-intellectual "universities are infiltrated by commies!" meme. This is pure red meat for the idiot fringe.

100 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:56:31pm

re: #94 Killgore Trout

Obama as #15?

I think it's a little soon for that.

Not ODS... I just don't know how they can consider someone before they've been out of office for at least ten years.

I think it's okay to rank Clinton now, but not Bush or President Obama.

My two cents.

101 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:57:06pm

re: #99 Fozzie Bear

Beck is going to LOVE this. It plays into his anti-intellectual "universities are infiltrated by commies!" meme. This is pure red meat for the idiot fringe.

THREAD!
it's be a good one

102 elizajane  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:57:25pm

re: #95 Gus 802

I believe that Beck rated Roosevelt as the third most evil human being ever to walk this earth, one higher than Judas and three higher than Hitler. I know that Woodrow Wilson is Beck's Enemy #1; but who is #2? Anybody know?

Anyway, clearly these 238 scholars are all covert Enemies of the People of these here United States and need to be, oh, taken out. Probably a bunch of pinko professors.

103 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:57:35pm

re: #73 b_sharp

Gore making millions is capitalism at its best. His organizations are being used to promote alternative energy sources. The fastest way to get humans to adopt new ideas is to make the old ideas overly expensive. Since AGW is somewhat in the future, we need to repackage the message to one of energy independence which can be made to look more immediate.

Energy independence has nothing whatsoever to do with AGW.

What are you, someone's dishonest spin consultant?

104 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:57:56pm

Although I certainly do not fault the study for Ranking FDR as number one. Was an incredibly difficult time for our country.

105 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:58:23pm

re: #100 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Obama as #15?

I think it's a little soon for that.

Not ODS... I just don't know how they can consider someone before they've been out of office for at least ten years.

I think it's okay to rank Clinton now, but not Bush or President Obama.

My two cents.

15th best president is the punchline...it's all for fun, obviously...a joke

106 Racer X  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:58:45pm

re: #100 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Obama as #15?

I think it's a little soon for that.

Not ODS... I just don't know how they can consider someone before they've been out of office for at least ten years.

I think it's okay to rank Clinton now, but not Bush or President Obama.

My two cents.

Strongly agree.

Never confuse good intentions with results.

107 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:58:49pm

re: #105 albusteve

Nobel Peace Prize.

108 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:59:00pm

re: #100 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Obama as #15?

I think it's a little soon for that.

Not ODS... I just don't know how they can consider someone before they've been out of office for at least ten years.

I think it's okay to rank Clinton now, but not Bush or President Obama.

My two cents.

Yeah, I think it's way too early to rate Obama. I do kinda understand their excitement. Dems have been trying to get healthcare reform for decades and Obama got it done. That's a big fucking deal.

109 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:59:01pm

re: #102 elizajane

I believe that Beck rated Roosevelt as the third most evil human being ever to walk this earth, one higher than Judas and three higher than Hitler. I know that Woodrow Wilson is Beck's Enemy #1; but who is #2? Anybody know?

Anyway, clearly these 238 scholars are all covert Enemies of the People of these here United States and need to be, oh, taken out. Probably a bunch of pinko professors.

probably yeah

110 KingKenrod  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:59:23pm

re: #94 Killgore Trout

Glenn Beck is gonna be pissed...

FDR Rated Best President In Survey Of 238 Scholars


Clinton and Obama higher than Reagan? GWB 5th worst?

President Barack Obama is ranked 15th, while Ronald Reagan comes in at No. 18. Bill Clinton was ranked No. 13, and George W. Bush was ranked fifth worst.

[Link: www.bizjournals.com...]

111 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:59:33pm

re: #107 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Nobel Peace Prize.

hahaha!...good one!....see what I mean?

112 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:59:49pm

re: #102 elizajane

I believe that Beck rated Roosevelt as the third most evil human being ever to walk this earth, one higher than Judas and three higher than Hitler. I know that Woodrow Wilson is Beck's Enemy #1; but who is #2? Anybody know?

Anyway, clearly these 238 scholars are all covert Enemies of the People of these here United States and need to be, oh, taken out. Probably a bunch of pinko professors.

You should use a sarc when making comments like the latter.

113 tradewind  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:00:10pm

Oh, sure, Penn State. The opinion that really counts: what did they say at Penn?//
/note sarc, just in case there are literalists about/

114 Soap_Man  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:00:27pm

re: #100 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Obama as #15?

I think it's a little soon for that.

Not ODS... I just don't know how they can consider someone before they've been out of office for at least ten years.

I think it's okay to rank Clinton now, but not Bush or President Obama.

My two cents.

Not to say i don't trust the scholars who make these lists, but it's probably the most accurate when said scholars are old enough to have not been adults when the people they are ranking were president.

You know, have no personal feeling about the people they are rating.

115 RadicalModerate  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:00:27pm

re: #94 Killgore Trout

Glenn Beck is gonna be pissed...

FDR Rated Best President In Survey Of 238 Scholars

For those of you interested, here's the complete listing, with details on the various criteria used for ranking.

Clean sweep for the Roosevelts

116 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:00:41pm

re: #8 webevintage

Palin E-mail Hacker Reveals How He Got In: By Having A Working Brain
[Link: wonkette.com...]

Channers are smart :D

117 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:01:35pm

re: #110 KingKenrod

President Barack Obama is ranked 15th, while Ronald Reagan comes in at No. 18. Bill Clinton was ranked No. 13, and George W. Bush was ranked fifth worst.

That's a too high for Clinton. He was ok but he didn't really do very much.

118 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:01:57pm

re: #108 Killgore Trout

Yeah, I think it's way too early to rate Obama. I do kinda understand their excitement. Dems have been trying to get healthcare reform for decades and Obama got it done. That's a big fucking deal.

I can't wait til the bill is finally written!....we'll see in a while what a big fucking deal it is...nobody knows the cost or the effectiveness....but hey!, who cares...we won!

119 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:02:04pm

re: #85 albusteve


re: #82 allegro

As I asked, is there an AGW denier who isn't a wingnut?


ah, I think it's safe to say yes...probably millions

There is a difference between a denier and a sceptic. There is no way to make a denier change his/her mind, no matter how convincing to the average person the evidence. That is why we describe a denier as a moron. We know there are many who have been convinced by the deniers to dismiss AGW as an organized plot that would reconsider if the information they were supplied was more honest and accurate. To do this we have to make the misinformation look ridiculous while filling the resulting void with accurate information.

Unfortunately, science is hard and without a good foundation and some interest it is difficult to absorb. What we need is a personality that can sex up the message and make it accessible to the average non-scientist. I think this is what Gore was attempting to do but because of his political history was the wrong person for the job.

121 RadicalModerate  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:02:18pm

re: #110 KingKenrod

[Link: www.bizjournals.com...]

Dangit, beat me by just over a minute with the link.

122 tradewind  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:02:18pm

re: #107 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
It's never too soon for the Nobel committee.
No degree of suspension of disbelief is too difficult.

123 Soap_Man  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:03:04pm

re: #115 RadicalModerate

For those of you interested, here's the complete listing, with details on the various criteria used for ranking.

Clean sweep for the Roosevelts

You can probably put the top five in any order and not get much of an argument from reasonable people.

Except maybe Jefferson. Much of the important stuff he did was done before he was president. So, are we talking about life-time achievement or just what you did while you were actually president?

124 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:03:21pm

re: #117 Killgore Trout

That's a too high for Clinton. He was ok but he didn't really do very much.

he managed to get himself impeached...genius!

125 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:03:23pm

re: #52 albusteve

well now there are multitudes of moderate morons that do not believe the science because they have become jaded from the bickering, the cap and trade threat, Gore making millions...what of all the people that are not wingnuts?

Only a Democrat's success is proof of his untrustworthyness

Gore making millions: bad

Cheney making millions: good!

126 elizajane  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:03:37pm

re: #112 Naso Tang

You should use a sarc when making comments like the latter.

Surely nobody uses the term "pinko" in any way that is not sarcastic?
Just speaking as a Berkeley professor.

127 Jack Burton  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:03:40pm

re: #110 KingKenrod

I think it's a tad bit too early to be ranking anyone after GHWB, especially not Obama since he's not even through half of one term yet. It hasn't been long enough to have reasonable historical perspective.

128 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:04:56pm

re: #119 b_sharp

pretty much agree with that...well said

129 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:05:19pm

re: #126 elizajane

Surely nobody uses the term "pinko" in any way that is not sarcastic?
Just speaking as a Berkeley professor.

Are you kidding? Nobody does??

130 Soap_Man  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:05:21pm

Having Obama #15 and W at #39 is going to make a lot of people completely ignore that list.

(I agree that neither should be ranked. Too soon.)

131 tradewind  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:05:29pm

re: #116 WindUpBird
The kid's the smart-assed son of one of our local Dem representatives, and he's shaking in his boots. He still doesn't know what he's looking at.

132 KingKenrod  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:05:45pm

re: #121 RadicalModerate

Dangit, beat me by just over a minute with the link.

Well, unlike me you formatted your post correctly, so you get style points.

133 allegro  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:05:59pm

re: #119 b_sharp

Unfortunately, science is hard and without a good foundation and some interest it is difficult to absorb. What we need is a personality that can sex up the message and make it accessible to the average non-scientist. I think this is what Gore was attempting to do but because of his political history was the wrong person for the job.

Yet he was wildly successful bringing the issue into the public discourse when no one else had been.

134 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:06:02pm

re: #125 WindUpBird

Only a Democrat's success is proof of his untrustworthyness

Gore making millions: bad

Cheney making millions: good!

what does any of this mean?...have you been following or just want to poodle your way into the debate?

135 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:06:25pm

re: #89 ludwigvanquixote

Tell that to those who perished in India and Pakistan when they had sustained temperatures over 128 F for several days. AGW is happening now.

The perception of AGW is that it is some decades into the future. Even though you and I can now link specific weather patterns to climate because of the research we've done does not mean those without the knowledge base can do the same. They still believe AGW is not an immediate problem, it is not 'real' enough to them it is an abstract idea that has yet to touch their individual lives. That perception is a reality we have to work with and dispel.

136 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:07:16pm

re: #130 Soap_Man

Having Obama #15 and W at #39 is going to make a lot of people completely ignore that list.

(I agree that neither should be ranked. Too soon.)

wait to see if the Afghan Surge works or not...a lot of dead Americans coming back from there

137 tradewind  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:08:04pm

re: #120 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Who'd listen to Arliss rate presidents?
:)

138 Jack Burton  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:09:16pm

re: #119 b_sharp

Unfortunately, science is hard and without a good foundation and some interest it is difficult to absorb. What we need is a personality that can sex up the message and make it accessible to the average non-scientist. I think this is what Gore was attempting to do but because of his political history was the wrong person for the job.

This is what I've been saying for awhile. He's right for the most part, but he's not helping because he is who he is.

He's such a polarizing figure in American politics that the best thing for AGW awareness advocacy would be for him to STFU and pass the torch to someone who isn't despised by 49% of the population for one reason or another.

At the very least we'll get a break from people constantly bringing him up to quasi-godwin an AGW discussion.

139 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:09:17pm

re: #118 albusteve

You still can't find the bill or the CBO estimates? Huh. It's odd that it's a complete mystery to some people.

140 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:09:19pm

re: #135 b_sharp

The perception of AGW is that it is some decades into the future. Even though you and I can now link specific weather patterns to climate because of the research we've done does not mean those without the knowledge base can do the same. They still believe AGW is not an immediate problem, it is not 'real' enough to them it is an abstract idea that has yet to touch their individual lives. That perception is a reality we have to work with and dispel.


another good point...you are on a roll....perception is EVERYTHING in AmIdol politics and the perception of AGW took a huge hit....that has been my point all along....now what?

141 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:09:35pm

re: #94 Killgore Trout

Glenn Beck is gonna be pissed...

FDR Rated Best President In Survey Of 238 Scholars

Ah, who believes what these elitists sitting in their ivory towers say about anything. They do not have the bestest weapon in the world - common sense. Common sense is always right.

142 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:09:42pm

The list had George Bush as the 18th luckiest President.

Having 911 happen in your first year puts you in the top 18 in luck?

Holy fuckin' smokes, Batman!

I am less of a fan of President Bush than I was, but that is fucking ridiculous.

143 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:10:09pm

re: #103 Naso Tang

Well, you know, since any plan at all for Energy independence has to get us off of the oil teat, there might be some link afterall.

144 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:10:12pm

re: #137 tradewind

It's really good... very funny.

145 Nimed  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:10:31pm

re: #134 albusteve

what does any of this mean?...have you been following or just want to poodle your way into the debate?

If I may poodle my way into the debate; Soros making billions -- very bad.

146 tradewind  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:10:33pm

re: #125 WindUpBird
The difference is that Gore's about to be relieved of a lot of those, Cheney, probably not./

147 RadicalModerate  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:10:36pm

Anyone else watching the witness testimony for Kagan's confirmation hearing today? The SoCon testimony is bordering on deranged, and they haven't even gotten to FRC's Tony Perkins yet.

148 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:11:15pm

re: #119 b_sharp

In my experience 'skeptics' are generally people who don't have the cojones to come out and acknowledge they think AGW is false.

At least on the 'net.

149 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:11:30pm

re: #139 Killgore Trout

You still can't find the bill or the CBO estimates? Huh. It's odd that it's a complete mystery to some people.

isn't it?....there are people out there that distrust congress?....unpossible!
I do admire your unflinching loyalty to the feds, that's what makes the whole thing go around....believers

150 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:12:26pm

re: #142 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Son of a bitch! Maybe I'm reading it wrong. They have FDR as the 5th luckiest President.

What the hell? I wish I could have both Pearl Harbor and Polio.

(Napoleon Dynamite's voice)
LUCKY!

151 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:12:40pm

re: #103 Naso Tang

Energy independence has nothing whatsoever to do with AGW.

What are you, someone's dishonest spin consultant?

It does when that independence comes through adoption of energy sources outside of burning fossil fuels.

152 tradewind  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:12:49pm

re: #138 ArchangelMichael
He'd have been a lot less polarizing if he'd been able to resist the lure of the Hollywood A-list. They'll ruin any credible cause.

153 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:13:00pm

re: #143 windsagio

Well, you know, since any plan at all for Energy independence has to get us off of the oil teat, there might be some link afterall.

Off oil and onto domestic coal and gas?//

154 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:13:04pm

re: #145 Nimed

If I may poodle my way into the debate; Soros making billions -- very bad.

what does that have to do with the subject?...oh!, new subject, I get it now

155 Nimed  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:13:09pm

re: #142 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The list had George Bush as the 18th luckiest President.

Having 911 happen in your first year puts you in the top 18 in luck?

Holy fuckin' smokes, Batman!

I am less of a fan of President Bush than I was, but that is fucking ridiculous.

Well, 9/11 made Bush momentarily the most popular President in U.S. history. Yes, this is an extremely cynical perspective.

156 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:13:39pm

re: #151 b_sharp

It does when that independence comes through adoption of energy sources outside of burning fossil fuels.

That is not what you said however.

157 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:13:41pm

re: #154 albusteve

what does that have to do with the subject?...oh!, new subject, I get it now

You represented Gore making millions as a bad thing, therefore, part of the subject!

158 tradewind  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:14:04pm

re: #145 Nimed
I don't care if Soros makes billions.... but making them betting against this country's not so great.

159 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:14:21pm

re: #153 Naso Tang

You think there's enough?!

160 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:14:26pm

re: #142 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The list had George Bush as the 18th luckiest President.

Having 911 happen in your first year puts you in the top 18 in luck?

Holy fuckin' smokes, Batman!

I am less of a fan of President Bush than I was, but that is fucking ridiculous.

I think Bush is too low on the list too. But notice where Reagan is, he's way up there so it's not necessarily lefty bias. I think Bush's problem is that the lefties have always hated him and the right turned on him after the election. It's common to see Tea Party signs bashing Bush and Beck frequently mentions Bush as part of the Cloward-Piven conspiracy to intentionally destroy the country. Conservatives turned on Bush right after the election partially because Obama was continuing Bush policies like economic stimulus spending. In order to hate Obama effectively they had to turn on Bush too. It's a shame.

161 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:14:39pm

re: #158 tradewind

You'd have no future on the futures market >>

162 Gus  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:14:48pm

re: #139 Killgore Trout

You still can't find the bill or the CBO estimates? Huh. It's odd that it's a complete mystery to some people.

Audit the CBO!!11ty

163 Nimed  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:14:49pm

re: #154 albusteve

what does that have to do with the subject?...oh!, new subject, I get it now

Just wanted to say something without reading all the comments in the thread so far. :)

164 tradewind  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:14:55pm

re: #155 Nimed
It was Clinton's fondest hope that he'd get some magnificent calamity a'la 9-11.
Devil in a blue dress just didn't compare.

165 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:14:56pm

re: #103 Naso Tang

Energy independence has nothing whatsoever to do with AGW.

What are you, someone's dishonest spin consultant?

You don't think there's any connection between the interests that want us to stay on fossil fuels as long as possible, and the coordinated smears against scientists and the science of AGW?

What in the hell, man?

166 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:15:31pm

re: #142 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Its really accurate. I don't think anybody will say he was happy it happened, but 9/11 is the best thing that happened to G.W.Bush personally in his entire life.

167 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:15:33pm

re: #151 b_sharp

It does when that independence comes through adoption of energy sources outside of burning fossil fuels.

correct, he missed completely...independence inherently involves lowering emissions

168 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:15:48pm

re: #164 tradewind

It was Clinton's fondest hope that he'd get some magnificent calamity a'la 9-11.
Devil in a blue dress just didn't compare.

WTF are you talking about?

169 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:15:50pm

re: #161 windsagio

You'd have no future on the futures market >>

Republicans in business = good!

Democrats in business= bad!

Durr hurr de hurr hurr partisan smoothbrain duhh

170 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:16:08pm

re: #166 windsagio

**Life to Presidency. Lets curb that hyperbole at least some.

171 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:16:25pm

re: #164 tradewind

It was Clinton's fondest hope that he'd get some magnificent calamity a'la 9-11.
Devil in a blue dress just didn't compare.

hahaha more dumb partisanship, love it, tell us another one

172 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:16:33pm

re: #164 tradewind

I doubt that. I'd love to be the President in a time of Peace and Prosperity.

173 Racer X  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:16:34pm

Luckiest president?

Gerald Ford.

174 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:16:48pm

re: #157 WindUpBird

You represented Gore making millions as a bad thing, therefore, part of the subject!

had you followed...I was trying to speak for moderate voters in the middle and Gore is big news to them....try to keep up

175 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:17:11pm

re: #166 windsagio

C'mon. That's horseshit.

176 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:17:12pm

Wow. Google news really fucked up their front page. That's pretty useless.

177 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:17:30pm

re: #164 tradewind

It was Clinton's fondest hope that he'd get some magnificent calamity a'la 9-11.
Devil in a blue dress just didn't compare.

Let me guess. FDR knew about Pearl Harbor too, right?

Damn leftists betting against the country!

178 tradewind  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:17:36pm

re: #161 windsagio
I've been there and done messed with that. Can you say ' Beans in the teens ? ! '
Not a great way to sleep at night, I'll admit.

179 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:17:38pm

re: #173 Racer X

Luckiest president?

Gerald Ford.

"I was told there would be no math."

180 Gus  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:17:41pm

re: #169 WindUpBird

Republicans in business = good!

Democrats in business= bad!

Durr hurr de hurr hurr partisan smoothbrain duhh

If there was a way to blame Muslims on AGW and have a reason to drop JDAMs on something they'd be signing up with AGW science pronto.

181 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:17:58pm

re: #159 windsagio

You think there's enough?!

There is plenty of coal and natural gas for generations, it just costs more to replace oil with them, and it doesn't help AGW, nor the scenery.

182 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:18:04pm

re: #163 Nimed

Just wanted to say something without reading all the comments in the thread so far. :)

I do that too...twenty lashes

183 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:18:14pm

re: #175 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I toned it back some later, got carried away :P

Just remember, before 9/11 he was known for doing nothing and cutting brush (at the same time, which is hard!)

184 tradewind  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:18:30pm

re: #168 Varek Raith
Google it. He was interviewed and said he had always hoped he'd have a crisis that he could respond to and really show the people his abilities. Admitted he was jealous of Bush for the timing.

185 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:19:21pm

re: #173 Racer X

Luckiest president?

Gerald Ford.

When Nixon blessed him.. His career was over...
That's not luck.. That's the kiss of political death.
/Hi Racer

186 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:19:41pm

re: #184 tradewind

Google it. He was interviewed and said he had always hoped he'd have a crisis that he could respond to and really show the people his abilities. Admitted he was jealous of Bush for the timing.

Heh, so you want me to go fish to back up your argument?
No thanks.
You provide the proof.

187 Reginald Perrin  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:19:47pm

One thing Al Gore has going for him is that history will prove he was right about Climate Change.
Those who are currently denying the reality of Global Warming and fighting against any changes to the status quo will be the villians in the history books.

188 Kragar  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:19:55pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

Wow. Google news really fucked up their front page. That's pretty useless.

Yup, complete shitbag.

189 tradewind  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:20:09pm

re: #166 windsagio
Bush never thought that it was.
But his predecessor did.

190 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:20:35pm

re: #185 HoosierHoops

Harrison was the luckiest. Went out before the honeymoon wore off >>

191 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:20:49pm

re: #165 WindUpBird

You don't think there's any connection between the interests that want us to stay on fossil fuels as long as possible, and the coordinated smears against scientists and the science of AGW?

What in the hell, man?

Got your knickers in a twist?

Energy independence by itself says zilch about what type of energy one builds it on.

Do I have to elaborate everything?

192 Nimed  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:21:30pm

re: #175 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

C'mon. That's horseshit.

The same thing applies to FDR. Catastrophes give Presidents the best chance to get a prominent place in History books.

Note that this is not the same thing as saying that Presidents wish that catastrophes happen during their tenures.

193 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:21:31pm

re: #189 tradewind

I'm the psychic one.

Anwyays, I'm not talking about 'thought', but rather 'reality'.

PS: If you make a claim like that, don't just say 'google it'. Link it yourself, otherwise it looks like you're trying to pull a fast one.

194 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:21:31pm

re: #181 Naso Tang

There is plenty of coal and natural gas for generations, it just costs more to replace oil with them, and it doesn't help AGW, nor the scenery.

there is a sliver of hope that we can use these resources cleanly someday....somedaaaaayyyy my prince will come!

195 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:21:47pm

re: #188 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Yup, complete shitbag.

Yeah, somebody in the programming department got bored.

196 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:21:48pm

re: #184 tradewind

Google it. He was interviewed and said he had always hoped he'd have a crisis that he could respond to and really show the people his abilities. Admitted he was jealous of Bush for the timing.


So basically, now that you've walked back your ridiculous original quote...what Clinton said is what every single ER nurse or doctor or firefighter has always said about crises in their work.

Oh shit that means Clinton wants everything to be blowed up also lewinski lewinski

197 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:21:55pm

A riveting series from National Geographic Locked Up Abroad

Very well done. Reenacted true stories of Americans arrested/detained overseas. Some chilling stories.

198 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:22:14pm

re: #189 tradewind

Bush never thought that it was.
But his predecessor did.

Partisan dumb

199 Gus  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:22:36pm

re: #164 tradewind

It was Clinton's fondest hope that he'd get some magnificent calamity a'la 9-11.
Devil in a blue dress just didn't compare.

I can't find anything. Should I look in World Net Daily or Free Republic?

/

200 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:22:39pm

re: #196 WindUpBird

If Clinton said it at all, somebody's having trouble supporting their statements again >>

201 tradewind  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:22:56pm

re: #186 Varek Raith
I don't care if you get proof or not... I already know what he said. It's not an ' argument.'

202 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:23:02pm

re: #194 albusteve

there is a sliver of hope that we can use these resources cleanly someday...somedaaayyy my prince will come!

We can use them cleanly today. All we need to do is pay to make them clean. How deep is your pocket?

203 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:23:06pm
The same thing applies to FDR. Catastrophes give Presidents the best chance to get a prominent place in History books.

Note that this is not the same thing as saying that Presidents wish that catastrophes happen during their tenures.

Well, it's tradewind, so it has to be true!

204 allegro  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:23:36pm

re: #191 Naso Tang

Energy independence by itself says zilch about what type of energy one builds it on.

I believe the argument is that deniers will never accept the reality of AGW since they actively choose not too. In order to get them on board with positive action it requires an argument that they can choose to accept which is "hurt the evil Arabs" in the form of energy independence. At that point they can get on board with alternative energy without damage to their internal narrative.

205 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:23:51pm

re: #197 Killgore Trout

Makes caning look extra good...

206 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:24:01pm

re: #200 windsagio

If Clinton said it at all, somebody's having trouble supporting their statements again >>

haha every day, another weak sauce limp dick GOP talking point about Clinton, another tired, threadbare partisan Lewinski crack, another wingnut afternoon!

207 Kragar  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:24:29pm

re: #195 Naso Tang

Yeah, somebody in the programming department got bored.

I just love when someone takes something which is working fine, throws it out the window, and dumps something new in your lap. I didn't ask for a new layout and I don't want one.

208 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:24:34pm

re: #202 Naso Tang

We can use them cleanly today. All we need to do is pay to make them clean. How deep is your pocket?

not as deep as yours...heh

209 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:24:58pm

re: #188 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Yup, complete shitbag.

I keep looking at it to figure out what they were trying to accomplish. I guess you are supposed to customize the page to show stories of interest to you but now it's just random shit and swine flu and hockey.

210 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:25:33pm

re: #191 Naso Tang

Got your knickers in a twist?

Energy independence by itself says zilch about what type of energy one builds it on.

Do I have to elaborate everything?

Basically, you're ignoring the obvious context of energy independence in America, in the year 2010, in our political reality.

I don't ignore context! Context makes it easier to understand things!

211 Racer X  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:25:41pm

re: #185 HoosierHoops

When Nixon blessed him.. His career was over...
That's not luck.. That's the kiss of political death.
/Hi Racer

Hi Hoops!

Ford got in because Agnew was a crook and Nixon was sloppy. He is the only President who was never elected to any office higher than the US Congress. He dodged not one but two assassination attempts. Pretty damn lucky in my book.

212 blueraven  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:25:47pm

re: #201 tradewind

I don't care if you get proof or not... I already know what he said. It's not an ' argument.'

You forgot your sarc tag.//

213 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:25:55pm

re: #205 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Makes caning look extra good...

I watched the one on Uganda today and I'm pretty sure it's gonna give me nightmares.

214 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:26:11pm

re: #141 b_sharp

Ah, who believes what these elitists sitting in their ivory towers say about anything. They do not have the bestest weapon in the world - common sense. Common sense is always right.

The long-running Siena College poll has always biased their selection of "experts" toward communards and retro-reds. Other presidential polls, though equally worthless, tend to yield results more congruent with voter perception. It's a little odd to imagine asking randomly selected voters for their opinions on Franklin Pierce and Millard Fillmore though. Poor Frank usually vies with Warren Harding for last place in these polls, with Fillmore as the favored last runner-up.
I have seen just one scholarly defense of Harding in my life, btw. It was written by a journalism professor who turned out to be Harding's great-nephew.

215 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:26:19pm

re: #166 windsagio

Its really accurate. I don't think anybody will say he was happy it happened, but 9/11 is the best thing that happened to G.W.Bush personally in his entire life.

That's baloney, and a nasty thing to say, to boot.

216 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:26:19pm

re: #210 WindUpBird

Random cheapshot:

"I think we found out what industry Naso works in"

>>

217 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:26:33pm

re: #201 tradewind

I don't care if you get proof or not... I already know what he said. It's not an ' argument.'

Heh.

Youtube Video
218 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:26:43pm

re: #215 reine.de.tout

read down before responding dammit!

Or make charles give us an 'edit' feature :)

219 Nimed  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:27:03pm

re: #206 WindUpBird

haha every day, another weak sauce limp dick GOP talking point about Clinton, another tired, threadbare partisan Lewinski crack, another wingnut afternoon!

:D
For some weird reason, your comment remind me of this music.

Youtube Video
220 tradewind  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:27:17pm

re: #193 windsagio
Sorry, but if I make an out-of-thin-air argument that I'm interested in backing up because it's obscure or hard to believe, then I'll google it.... or if it's a news story or study.
This particular deal was widely reported and discussed at the time. It's not like some polling result that needs documentation. I know what you mean, and usually, yeah, but this was like saying ' Nixon had to resign ' or ' Dan Quayle was the butt of many jokes while VP '.

221 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:27:20pm

re: #140 albusteve

another good point...you are on a roll...perception is EVERYTHING in AmIdol politics and the perception of AGW took a huge hit...that has been my point all along...now what?

Now what? Now people should realize that you are a two faced self absorbed jackass who couldn't care less about the science and who only exists to stick your unwashed taint into the debate.

222 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:27:27pm

re: #210 WindUpBird

Basically, you're ignoring the obvious context of energy independence in America, in the year 2010, in our political reality.

I don't ignore context! Context makes it easier to understand things!

unless it involves Clinton!....good one, another leftwing dodge....ho hum, just another day

223 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:28:02pm

Really never imagined I'd see Gore in a sex scandal.

The CNN HLN Headline... "GORE'S A CRAZED SEX POODLE!"

Really, can you imagine the sounds he makes?

Ear/mind/eye bleach available at the concession stand.

224 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:28:16pm

Google news homepage sez.....

The selection and placement of stories on this page were determined automatically by a computer program.

Lol

225 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:28:30pm

re: #213 Killgore Trout

I watched the one on Uganda today and I'm pretty sure it's gonna give me nightmares.

I'm DVRing the series.

226 tradewind  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:28:33pm

re: #206 WindUpBird
I thought it showed remarkable honesty on his part, and I thought it took guts to admit that he felt that way.

227 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:28:50pm

re: #190 windsagio

Harrison was the luckiest. Went out before the honeymoon wore off >>

I was trying to rate lucky presidents.. How do you rank them?
1. Luckiest guy running against Nixon? or Carter?
2. Fluke of History? The Trumans?
3. A lucky Nominee that got elected that couldn't put together 2 lucid sentences? I'm looking at you Calvin
4. Lucky cause there really wasn't anyone worth Shit running against the Prez? Hi John Kerry!
5. Lucky because America desired a Camlot?
I'm still considering the playing field

228 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:29:07pm

re: #224 Killgore Trout

Google news homepage sez...

Lol

More like monkeys.

229 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:29:11pm

re: #220 tradewind

So link it.

I'm starting to think you can't.

230 Racer X  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:29:42pm

re: #218 windsagio

read down before responding dammit!

Or make charles give us an 'edit' feature :)

?

What has been posted cannot be un-posted. Unless charles deletes it, or uses the disemvowler.

231 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:29:46pm

re: #229 windsagio

So link it.

I'm starting to think you can't.

See my #217.

232 RadicalModerate  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:30:03pm

Funny how certain individuals here conveniently forget that Clinton was President at the time of the worst terroristic attack on American soil prior to the 9/11 attacks.

233 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:30:05pm

re: #204 allegro

I believe the argument is that deniers will never accept the reality of AGW since they actively choose not too. In order to get them on board with positive action it requires an argument that they can choose to accept which is "hurt the evil Arabs" in the form of energy independence.

That is a contradiction in terms. It is much simpler to hurt the Arabs just by burning or converting coal. Why do you think it follows that only clean coal can be used? Oil is cleaner than coal.

At that point they can get on board with alternative energy without damage to their internal narrative.

I don't think the deniers have anything against alternative energy (the clean kind), they just don't want to pay more for it because of what they consider junk science.

234 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:30:17pm

re: #221 goddamnedfrank

Now what? Now people should realize that you are a two faced self absorbed jackass who couldn't care less about the science and who only exists to stick your unwashed taint into the debate.

wrong again frank...how can you be so wrong all the time....tell you what...go all the way back upthread and read the posts, then get back with me

235 allegro  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:30:36pm

re: #220 tradewind

This particular deal was widely reported and discussed at the time.

And yet no one here but you seems to be at all familiar with it. A link would be appropriate.

236 tradewind  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:30:38pm

re: #223 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
No, the on-stage tonsil hockey at the convention was more than enough of that.
Seriously, I hope it's a frame job, and gets put to rest quickly. Just too much ick factor to be true.

237 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:30:58pm

re: #230 Racer X

That's what I"m saying. You say something stupid, then you have to pull it back 4-5 posts down, but everyone reads the first thing and freaks out, responding before they get to the retraction.

You have to admit, an edit feature would fix that :D

238 tradewind  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:31:02pm

re: #229 windsagio
The goading thing's a loser./

239 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:31:33pm

re: #238 tradewind

The goading thing's a loser./

So is spouting unsupported bullshit.

240 Nimed  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:31:39pm

re: #223 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Really never imagined I'd see Gore in a sex scandal.

The CNN HLN Headline... "GORE'S A CRAZED SEX POODLE!"

Really, can you imagine the sounds he makes?

Ear/mind/eye bleach available at the concession stand.

The thing is, is there any politician that you like picturing having sex?

241 Gus  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:32:04pm

re: #238 tradewind

The goading thing's a loser./

Linky?

242 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:32:26pm

re: #232 RadicalModerate

Honestly, I think the first WTC attack was grossly underplayed in the press. It was years later before I found out how really bad it was.

243 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:32:28pm

re: #208 albusteve

not as deep as yours...heh

No, mine is not deep either. However I do think many of the costs are short term (like congressional or senatorial terms, for example).//

244 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:32:55pm

re: #240 Nimed

The thing is, is there any politician that you like picturing having sex?

You're baiting me to say Palin. Okay.

Palin.

245 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:33:07pm

re: #238 tradewind


Personalizing it is a good tactic too >>

No wait, there's actually a point in trying to get people to support their statements!

246 Reginald Perrin  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:34:55pm

re: #199 Gus 802

I can't find anything. Should I look in World Net Daily or Free Republic?

/

Maybe you should check with the stalker's hate blog, I'm sure they have got it covered.

247 Nimed  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:34:58pm

re: #232 RadicalModerate

Funny how certain individuals here conveniently forget that Clinton was President at the time of the worst terroristic attack on American soil prior to the 9/11 attacks.

I trust Clinton because, after that attack, He Kept Us Safe.

Sounds dumb, right? But we've heard that a lot about Bush.

248 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:35:02pm

re: #245 windsagio

Personalizing it is a good tactic too >>

No wait, there's actually a point in trying to get people to support their statements!

Obama's a shape shifting lizard!
I googled it!

249 Kragar  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:35:26pm

re: #240 Nimed

The thing is, is there any politician that you like picturing having sex?

Yulia Tymoshenko

250 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:36:03pm

re: #248 Varek Raith

I feel safe in calling you a goddamn liar varek, I know you won't take it personally :D

251 Nimed  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:36:16pm

re: #244 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You're baiting me to say Palin. Okay.

Palin.

Eh. Scott Brown and Nikki Haley would also have been acceptable.

252 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:36:42pm

re: #199 Gus 802

I can't find anything. Should I look in World Net Daily or Free Republic?

/

hah color me shocked

253 Gus  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:36:43pm

Still no linky. I tried searching but came up dry.

254 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:37:03pm

re: #248 Varek Raith

Obama's a shape shifting lizard!
I googled it!

It said so right here on this blog with an American flag on it!

255 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:37:33pm

re: #253 Gus 802

Still no linky. I tried searching but came up dry.

This, coming from the Researcher Extraordinaire of LGF.
Gee, who do I trust?

256 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:37:46pm

re: #253 Gus 802

Still no linky. I tried searching but came up dry.

Oh Tradewind, always the bridesmaid, never the bride

257 RadicalModerate  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:38:05pm

re: #242 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Honestly, I think the first WTC attack was grossly underplayed in the press. It was years later before I found out how really bad it was.

I was thinking of this one, actually.

258 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:38:15pm

re: #242 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Honestly, I think the first WTC attack was grossly underplayed in the press. It was years later before I found out how really bad it was.

But not in the Military.. Mare Island went code Delta and was a pain in the ass to get to work on time...You got the Marines, Dogs, MP's and the dude's with the mirrors on a stick looking under your car..The Marines on the Island went to high alert...I will never forget those days...We would be walking to lunch and a platoon of Marines would run by...We DOD Civilians felt very safe on base..

259 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:38:25pm

re: #225 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm DVRing the series.

I usually hate reenactment shows but this is well directed and acted. I think what really puts it over the top is they film on location. So if they're doing a story on Turkey you can tell it's filmed in Turkey instead of some cheap soundstage in California.

260 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:38:34pm

re: #255 Varek Raith

This, coming from the Researcher Extraordinaire of LGF.
Gee, who do I trust?

Definitely you should trust the talking point bot who constantly pushes back against LGF's posts and repeats the same tired lines week in and week out

261 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:38:34pm

I've gotta go get some food so I'm just gonna put it out there.

Heard on Rush/O'Reilly, or simply pulled out of ass?

I'm presuming the former.

262 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:39:16pm

re: #261 windsagio

I've gotta go get some food so I'm just gonna put it out there.

Heard on Rush/O'Reilly, or simply pulled out of ass?

I'm presuming the former.

Maybe hallucinated while falling asleep to the dulcet tones of Mark Levin?

263 Racer X  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:39:23pm

re: #237 windsagio

That's what I"m saying. You say something stupid, then you have to pull it back 4-5 posts down, but everyone reads the first thing and freaks out, responding before they get to the retraction.

You have to admit, an edit feature would fix that :D

Or just don't post something stupid.

264 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:39:42pm

re: #263 Racer X

Pfft good luck with that, man.

265 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:40:09pm

re: #251 Nimed

I ain't gonna say Scott Brown... To 70's pornie for me... oh, and he's a dude!

266 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:40:16pm

re: #263 Racer X

Or just don't post something stupid.

All my posts are PURE WIN.
/

267 Kragar  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:40:31pm

re: #244 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You're baiting me to say Palin. Okay.

Palin.

The constant stream of "Oh God, You betcha!" would throw me off my game.

268 Reginald Perrin  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:41:14pm

re: #253 Gus 802

Still no linky. I tried searching but came up dry.

Hey don't feel so bad, I couldn't find any links that proved Climate Change deniers were the victims of viscous attacks by scientists who believe in Global Warming. I haven't given up however, it must be true or she wouldn't have told us to look it up.

269 Nimed  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:41:26pm

There really should be a Godwin's Law equivalent for mentioning Al Gore in climate change threads.

270 Gus  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:41:29pm

re: #255 Varek Raith

This, coming from the Researcher Extraordinaire of LGF.
Gee, who do I trust?

Thanks. Yeah, I tried a few different search terms. Nothing mentioned even in Conservapedia.

271 Racer X  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:41:37pm

re: #242 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Honestly, I think the first WTC attack was grossly underplayed in the press. It was years later before I found out how really bad it was.

Hmm.. I was thinking OK Federal Building.

272 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:42:25pm

re: #269 Nimed

There really should be a Godwin's Law equivalent for mentioning Al Gore in climate change threads.

why?...Gore is irrelevant?

273 Gus  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:42:47pm

re: #268 Reginald Perrin

Hey don't feel so bad, I couldn't find any links that proved Climate Change deniers were the victims of viscous attacks by scientists who believe in Global Warming. I haven't given up however, it must be true or she wouldn't have told us to look it up.

It's right under Obama's birth certificate.

/

274 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:42:54pm

re: #269 Nimed

There really should be a Godwin's Law equivalent for mentioning Al Gore in climate change threads.

GOP tourettes. They just twitch and their brains short circuit and they can't help themselves :D

275 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:43:01pm

re: #268 Reginald Perrin

Hey don't feel so bad, I couldn't find any links that proved Climate Change deniers were the victims of viscous attacks by scientists who believe in Global Warming. I haven't given up however, it must be true or she wouldn't have told us to look it up.

Viscous attacks? Like, with Gorilla Glue?

276 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:43:08pm

re: #272 albusteve

why?...Gore is irrelevant?

Only when he's used as a deflection to AGW.
HEY LOOK, GORE!

277 Gus  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:43:22pm

re: #269 Nimed

There really should be a Godwin's Law equivalent for mentioning Al Gore in climate change threads.

Gorewins Law

278 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:43:24pm

re: #210 WindUpBird

Basically, you're ignoring the obvious context of energy independence in America, in the year 2010, in our political reality.

I don't ignore context! Context makes it easier to understand things!

Rubbish. You are waffling. I've made my argument as clearly as possible.

Energy independence is no guarantee of clean energy. How simple do you need your contexts to understand them?

And, up yours, dingaling.

279 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:43:40pm

re: #276 Varek Raith

Only when he's used as a deflection to AGW.
HEY LOOK, GORE!

basically!

It's so transparent and obvious

280 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:44:18pm

re: #268 Reginald Perrin

Hey don't feel so bad, I couldn't find any links that proved Climate Change deniers were the victims of viscous attacks by scientists who believe in Global Warming. I haven't given up however, it must be true or she wouldn't have told us to look it up.

Oh, did someone pull that one out again.


Confirmed: Wingnuts are lying about bomb threat to global warming denier

Update: Pajamas Media Quietly Hides Ties to Alex Jones

It was a story manufactured by Pajamas Media and Alex Jones. Completely bogus.

281 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:44:24pm

re: #278 Naso Tang

Rubbish. You are waffling. I've made my argument as clearly as possible.

Energy independence is no guarantee of clean energy. How simple do you need your contexts to understand them?

And, up yours, dingaling.

It's not really much of an argument, but thanks for trying

282 Nimed  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:44:40pm

re: #265 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I ain't gonna say Scott Brown... To 70's pornie for me... oh, and he's a dude!

I hear you. But if you throw in a dude in these conversations, you effectively preempt 95% of sexism accusations. That's a fact.

283 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:44:44pm

re: #227 HoosierHoops

Some historians believe that Warren G. Harding literally died from the rampant cronyism for which his administration is infamous. Harding fell ill during a train trip on the west coast and died at the Palace Hotel in San Francisco. His physician, Charles E. Sawyer, was a quack and one of Harding's old friends from Ohio.

Sawyer’s reliance on dated medical practices resulted in the misdiagnosis of the President’s coronary condition that led to the President’s death in San Francisco in 1923. Joel Boone, M.D., the Vice Admiral in the United States Naval Medical Corps, had diagnosed the condition while Harding was on tour in Alaska. Sawyer deferred to the attending physician; however, Harding insisted on finishing the trip. It has even been specuated that Sawyer's use of harsh purgatives was the cause of Harding's fatal heart attack. At Sawyer’s recommendation, Mrs. Harding did not have an autopsy performed.

Incidentally, few Americans know that President Harding did have a very good record on civil rights, probably the best between Teddy and Franklin Roosevelt.

284 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:45:07pm

re: #279 WindUpBird

Its a crime to repeat a joke, but you weren't around earlier :p

As Byrd is to GOP racism, so Gore is to AGW.

285 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:45:31pm

re: #282 Nimed

I hear you. But if you throw in a dude in these conversations, you effectively preempt 95% of sexism accusations. That's a fact.

I find Charlie Crist to be a pretty handsome dude! *picturing*

286 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:45:41pm

re: #284 windsagio

*was

287 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:45:54pm

re: #284 windsagio

Its a crime to repeat a joke, but you weren't around earlier :p

As Byrd is to GOP racism, so Gore is to AGW.

The dumb pushback is dumb :D

288 Gus  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:45:58pm

re: #280 Killgore Trout

Oh, did someone pull that one out again.

Confirmed: Wingnuts are lying about bomb threat to global warming denier

Update: Pajamas Media Quietly Hides Ties to Alex Jones

It was a story manufactured by Pajamas Media and Alex Jones. Completely bogus.

Hey, whatever happened with that alleged attack on Monckton? Remember that?

289 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:46:05pm

re: #281 WindUpBird

It's not really much of an argument, but thanks for trying

Even I think you can do better than that.

290 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:46:06pm

re: #274 WindUpBird

GOP tourettes. They just twitch and their brains short circuit and they can't help themselves :D

you constantly bitch about what's posted and who posts it...do you have anything besides that?...you'd fit nicely in the morning threads...no debate, just bitching about the poster...why are you here otherwise?, just to spread discontent?

291 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:46:38pm

re: #276 Varek Raith

Only when he's used as a deflection to AGW.
HEY LOOK, GORE!

in the chicken suit?...where?

292 Nimed  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:47:04pm

re: #272 albusteve

why?...Gore is irrelevant?

For the specific topic of the post? Most of the times, yes.

293 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:47:28pm

re: #291 albusteve

in the chicken suit?...where?

By the cows!
eat mor chikin

294 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:47:31pm

re: #281 WindUpBird

It's not really much of an argument, but thanks for trying

you have posted nothing in rebutt...where is it?

295 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:48:02pm

re: #290 albusteve

you constantly bitch about what's posted and who posts it...do you have anything besides that?...you'd fit nicely in the morning threads...no debate, just bitching about the poster...why are you here otherwise?, just to spread discontent?

Ok if I repeat that?

296 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:48:08pm

re: #288 Gus 802

Hey, whatever happened with that alleged attack on Monckton? Remember that?

Is that why he looks like that?

///

297 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:48:16pm

re: #288 Gus 802

Hey, whatever happened with that alleged attack on Monckton? Remember that?

I never heard about that one. It was probably the Bilderbergs

298 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:48:53pm

Dinner time. Later, dingers.

299 Gus  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:49:09pm

re: #297 Killgore Trout

I never heard about that one. It was probably the Bilderbergs

Stories here...

[Link: www.google.com...]

300 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:49:52pm

re: #292 Nimed

For the specific topic of the post? Most of the times, yes.

how did he become part of the topic here?...recall?

301 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:50:38pm

re: #218 windsagio

read down before responding dammit!

Or make charles give us an 'edit' feature :)

It's still baloney, and I will ask you not to "dammit" me.

As for an "edit" feature - I try to be careful enough I don't need it.
You can do what you want.

302 Gus  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:51:17pm

re: #297 Killgore Trout

I never heard about that one. It was probably the Bilderbergs

I think he, they, blamed it on the UN-Obama-Socialist-Elitist-Chavez-European-Leftist-Greenie Danish Police cabal.

//

303 Racer X  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:51:22pm

re: #290 albusteve

Some people love to show up and spout anti-GOP crap at other Lizards. Ignoring completely that very few here are enthused by the GOP, and virtually no Lizards are actual wingnuts. AFAIK

304 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:51:43pm

Ephemera.

Dust in the wind.

305 Nimed  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:53:00pm

re: #285 WindUpBird

I find Charlie Crist to be a pretty handsome dude! *picturing*

Not bad for a 53 year old guy. But he doesn't hold a candle to Harry Reid's rugged looks.

306 albusteve  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:53:10pm

re: #303 Racer X

Some people love to show up and spout anti-GOP crap at other Lizards. Ignoring completely that very few here are enthused by the GOP, and virtually no Lizards are actual wingnuts. AFAIK

indeed...spewage

307 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:53:16pm

re: #304 Cato the Elder

Ephemera.

Dust in the wind.

Two words.
Web. Archives.

308 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:54:29pm

re: #201 tradewind

I don't care if you get proof or not... I already know what he said. It's not an ' argument.'

This is fucking delusional. "I don't have to have any evidence, I just know he said it."

If you know he said it, then you know because of some source of information. Produce the source, or remain a wingnut in the eyes of the lizards.

309 Nimed  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:54:36pm

re: #300 albusteve

how did he become part of the topic here?...recall?

Searching the thread, I see that allegro made exactly the same point 250+ comments ago. Damn it!

310 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:54:54pm

re: #301 reine.de.tout

That's a freakin' tall horse.

With that, I guess its breaktime for bonzo,

Peace!

311 allegro  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:55:19pm

re: #300 albusteve

how did he become part of the topic here?...recall?

albusteve #52

re: #43 Gus 802

Climategate fail!
Wingnut heads explode.

well now there are multitudes of moderate morons that do not believe the science because they have become jaded from the bickering, the cap and trade threat, Gore making millions...what of all the people that are not wingnuts?

That's how.

312 tradewind  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:56:34pm

re: #285 WindUpBird
Poor Charlie..... bad timing for the buddy's corruption trial, October 18th.
[Link: firstread.msnbc.msn.com...]

313 windsagio  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:57:22pm

re: #312 tradewind

+ for linking, ok now really gone :D

314 tradewind  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:57:50pm

re: #308 Fozzie Bear
/Like that'd change any minds./
BTW.... you might not want to generalize re ' all lizards '.

315 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:57:57pm

re: #307 Varek Raith

Two words.
Web. Archives.

None of it matters.

We have a gusher in the Gulf, and the best we can do is argue over who's going to pay.

AGW will never be stopped, because humans always take the path of least (cheapest) resistance.

316 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:59:05pm

re: #314 tradewind

/Like that'd change any minds./
BTW... you might not want to generalize re ' all lizards '.

I'm pretty sure "I know it's true and I don't have any evidence" is generally recognized as delusional in this crowd.

317 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:59:26pm

re: #315 Cato the Elder

None of it matters.

We have a gusher in the Gulf, and the best we can do is argue over who's going to pay.

AGW will never be stopped, because humans always take the path of least (cheapest) resistance.

Sad but true.

318 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:00:48pm

re: #315 Cato the Elder

None of it matters.

We have a gusher in the Gulf, and the best we can do is argue over who's going to pay.

AGW will never be stopped, because humans always take the path of least (cheapest) resistance.

Oh please God let Cato be wrong on this one.

319 tradewind  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:01:16pm

re: #315 Cato the Elder
I will say that Bill Clinton said the most intelligent thing I have heard lately re the oil spill: (paraphrasing) that ' who is going to pay and who is going to be punished ' is fourth on the list of what we need to be thinking about, and we haven't yet gotten a handle on the first three.

320 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:02:18pm

George HW Bush said that we atheists aren't really citizens as far as he's concerned. There's no hard evidence that he said it, but I'm going to criticize him for it anyway.

Wow. I like how this works. Yeah, let's just throw shit we thought we heard about someone into the mix and see how high the flames rise.

(And no, I'm not really going to judge him on that statement because I can't be certain he said it.)

321 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:03:45pm

re: #318 Fozzie Bear

Oh please God let Cato be wrong on this one.

I don't think he is. Cheer up. It probably won't have much an impact on your life. Let our grandkids deal with it.

322 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:04:31pm

re: #318 Fozzie Bear

Oh please God let Cato be wrong on this one.

The last time I was wrong, the people of Pompeii were buried under megatons of volcanic ash.

I was a Vesuvius denier. Hell, I even sent old Pliny over there to prove me right. He ended up dying with the rest.

I am not wrong about this.

323 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:04:32pm

re: #321 JasonA

I don't think he is. Cheer up. It probably won't have much an impact on your life. Let our grandkids deal with it.

Oh like THAT makes me feel better. Ugh.

324 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:07:10pm

re: #322 Cato the Elder

The last time I was wrong, the people of Pompeii were buried under megatons of volcanic ash.

I was a Vesuvius denier. Hell, I even sent old Pliny over there to prove me right. He ended up dying with the rest.

I am not wrong about this.

I think you probably are right. However, I have no choice but to hope you are wrong, for the sake of the next generation.

We may not be able to stop bad things from happening, but we can do something to make sure it isn't even worse than it could otherwise be.

325 allegro  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:09:43pm

re: #324 Fozzie Bear

I think you probably are right. However, I have no choice but to hope you are wrong, for the sake of the next generation.

I believe the tipping point has been passed, not only on AGW but on irreparable environmental damage from pollutants. One can only hope that it can be slowed enough to prevent extinction level destruction.

326 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:11:39pm

re: #324 Fozzie Bear

I think you probably are right. However, I have no choice but to hope you are wrong, for the sake of the next generation.

We may not be able to stop bad things from happening, but we can do something to make sure it isn't even worse than it could otherwise be.

Well, when someone starts doing something other than business as usual, finger pointing, and blamage, send me a news flash, mkay?

327 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:12:22pm

re: #325 allegro

I believe the tipping point has been passed, not only on AGW but on irreparable environmental damage from pollutants. One can only hope that it can be slowed enough to prevent extinction level destruction.

Unless we nuke every square inch of the planet and kill the last prokaryote, there is always another, even worse tipping point to avoid.

328 ryannon  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:13:00pm

The page formating on my Google Chrome browser is all wonky. Is anyone else having the same problem?

329 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:13:53pm

re: #328 ryannon

The page formating on my Google Chrome browser is all wonky. Is anyone else having the same problem?

Page formatting? Nope. I love Chrome, but it does have bugs that make it unusable for certain things, dammit.

330 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:15:26pm

re: #301 reine.de.tout

Good evening Reine! Hope you are well..
So I go to lunch today and come out out my my car broke down..Dang computer was going crazy on the display..Like the beta version of Vista...I couldn't even turn the steering wheel...I'm going What?
I had to laugh...Whatever..I call Paulie to pick me up and called the shop to pick the car up..We looked under the hood and all the belts were off..Weird..
Paulie starts to try to figure out how to get the belts back on...Give it up bro..It's a Beemer we are fucked...In fact I would consider Hooking up with a BMW mechanic's daughter...Just for the rate..
Anyhoo my friend.. They called and gave me the bill.. Some tension adjuster thingy dingy that cost a fortune..The good news is the belts are just fine..
a 180 dollars an hour to install a high tech German Engineered part.
LOL
Then the tow truck driver couldn't find the car..Now this is funny..My Garage sends for a tow truck from Indy to my town.. Guy had no clue where the Chinese joint was in the strip mall.. He kept calling my Cell..
What is the address? You know..It's the only strip mall in a tiny town..I don't know the Street..
Call back What is it by? It's in our only strip mall across the street from BW3,,Dress Barn..For gawds sakes where the Kohl's dept store is...
It's getting funny cause we are both laughing by this time...
I see Kohls!
Oh thank Gawd.. Now drive South...ok
Call Back
Sir there are several cars matching you here...
I gave you my plate number!
What was that number sir?
So..I gave this guy my plate number of the only Red Beemer in the Parking lot in front of a Chinese joint...Cause..He couldn't find it. in a town of a few thousand.LOL I think he was f*cking with me
Sending a tow truck from Indy to here makes a 911 call look cheap..
Well next weekend I'll be spending some posting here in the evening Oklahoma...My first trip to scope out the State

331 ryannon  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:15:36pm

re: #329 JasonA

Page formatting? Nope. I love Chrome, but it does have bugs that make it unusable for certain things, dammit.

Never had this problem before, and it's just with LGF.

332 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:16:24pm

re: #331 ryannon

Never had this problem before, and it's just with LGF.

I'm using Chrome right now and everything's tip-top.

333 ryannon  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:18:19pm

re: #332 JasonA

I'm using Chrome right now and everything's tip-top.

Thanks, that's good to know. I'm going to mess around with the cache and cookies and see what happens.

334 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:19:09pm

re: #333 ryannon

Thanks, that's good to know. I'm going to mess around with the cache and cookies and see what happens.

Worst comes to worse just reinstall and see what happens. But you probably knew that already.

335 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:19:12pm

Chrome is still a tad buggy, but it's incredibly fast. The difference is especially noticeable on older computers where browser speed can be an issue.

336 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:20:41pm

re: #335 Fozzie Bear

Chrome is still a tad buggy, but it's incredibly fast. The difference is especially noticeable on older computers where browser speed can be an issue.

I love Chrome. My precious. Unless I have to attach something or save to a new folder I create through Chrome. Then it crashes and I want to throw it Mt. Doom. Or just use Safari for that stuff...

337 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:24:23pm

re: #336 JasonA

I love Chrome. My precious. Unless I have to attach something or save to a new folder I create through Chrome. Then it crashes and I want to throw it Mt. Doom. Or just use Safari for that stuff...

The Linux version seems more stable than the windows version of Chrome, for some reason. I have some glitches in windows, but none in Ubuntu. I don't think they are caused by the OS, though, because Firefox works fine in both.

338 ryannon  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:24:25pm

Closed and opened it again. LGF pages are back to normal. The ways of Chrome are indeed mysterious. My thanks for the suggestions and support....

339 Racer X  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:27:40pm

re: #325 allegro

I believe the tipping point has been passed, not only on AGW but on irreparable environmental damage from pollutants. One can only hope that it can be slowed enough to prevent extinction level destruction.

Don't underestimate man's ability to evolve.

340 blueraven  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:28:18pm

"New thread", mercifully cried tradewing tradewind. //

341 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:36:51pm

re: #340 blueraven

Horse penises will bring us all together again.

342 BongCrodny  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 4:56:07pm
Still no linky. I tried searching but came up dry.

No pertinent results I could find for "Clinton wishing for crisis," "Clinton wishes for crisis" or "Clinton wished for crisis." Nothing at Snopes, either.

There was a Malkin discharge from a couple weeks ago accusing Obama of wanting his own 9/11.

A commenter to that post basically said the same thing Tradewind said, so the meme is definitely out there.


I've got these pills I take for ODS, and these other pills I take for CDS, but I'm always getting them mixed up.

343 BongCrodny  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:08:06pm

re: #315 Cato the Elder

AGW will never be stopped, because humans always take the path of least (cheapest) resistance.

Saw a guy today at my apartment complex driving two small bags of trash to the dumpster.

A person can walk to a dumpster from any apartment in the complex in about two minutes.

344 shai_au  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:14:55pm

The scientist in the OP should make a movie about it.

Heaps of people would go see it thinking its by the other Michael Mann.

345 eric  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:25:44pm

r: #36 Rgnld Prrn

r y kddng m? Ths s sclsm mskng bhnd scntfc fcd. Th scnc mght b thr, bt t hs bn sd by th lft s pltcl bldgn. Dn't gt smrmy, thr s pltcztn f ths sss frm vry sd.

346 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:28:45pm

re: #345 eric

Are you kidding me? This is socialism masking behind a scientific facade. The science might be there, but it has been used by the left as a political bludgeon. Don't get smarmy, there is politicization of this issues from every side.

You can't bludgeon an opponent with his own ignorance if that opponent declines to be ignorant.

347 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:38:31pm

re: #345 eric

Are you kidding me? This is socialism masking behind a scientific facade. The science might be there, but it has been used by the left as a political bludgeon. Don't get smarmy, there is politicization of this issues from every side.

A few years ago, i thought AGW was crap as well. I let my opinions of many of the proposed solutions color my opinion of the problem.

They're different. You don't have to like many of the answers to "what should we do". You do need to see that something should be done.

348 eric  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:38:35pm

r: #346 Fzz Br

S f dcln t b gnrnt, m nfrmd? Wrk n y dbl ngtvs thr, r r y gnrnt f tht?

gnrnc s nt th ss. Th ss s th pltcztn f GW rgrdlss f pltcs. t s tl t frwrd pltcl gnd, srly y mst gr wth tht.

349 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:41:27pm

re: #348 eric

So if I decline to be ignorant, am I informed? Work on you double negatives there, or are you ignorant of that?

Ignorance is not the issue. The issue is the politicization of AGW regardless of politics. It is a tool to forward a political agenda, surely you must agree with that.

everything is a potential tool for a political agenda...the agenda is to win elections.

That is a non-sequitur to the question of whether AGW is very established science.

350 Reginald Perrin  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:41:56pm

re: #345 eric

Are you kidding me? This is socialism masking behind a scientific facade. The science might be there, but it has been used by the left as a political bludgeon. Don't get smarmy, there is politicization of this issues from every side.

I need a good laugh, please explain why it is bad to use peer reviewed science against political opponents who deny reality?

351 Eric  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:46:19pm

r: #347 cfwht?

c, m ncrtn nythng nds t b dn. Y cn scrm nd sy th wrld s ndng, t s nt. Th wrld wll b hr lng ftr w r gn, jst s t ws lng bfr w bcm hm spns spns, vn f wr t cncd th glb ws wrmng, drcnn cts n cnmc tpt t lwr th mn tmp 1 dgr cntgrd d nt lk lk gd sltns t m.

n shrt, 'll blv GW s crss whn th ppl wh tll m t's crss (Gr t l.) strt ctng lk ts crss.

352 freetoken  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:47:50pm

re: #351 Eric


In short, I'll believe AGW is a crisis when the people who tell me it's a crisis (Gore et al.) start acting like its a crisis.


Could of bet on this one coming.

353 Eric  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:48:36pm

r: #350 Rgnld Prrn

plgz, prhps fld t cmmnct my ds. Scnc s nt th ss. Scnc s dynmc prcss whr hypthss r tstd nd rtstd. s f ths scntfc cnclsns t frthr pltcl gnd s th pnt m mkng. Y cnnt dny tht ths s th cs. Y smply cnnt.

354 Eric  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:50:23pm

r: #352 frtkn

Y r bttng mn, m nt. Rgrdlss f yr prstdgttv pwrs, t s fr m gd brmtr. ctns, nt wrds. Wldn't y gr?

355 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:50:56pm

re: #351 Eric

Even if i were to concede the globe was warming, draconian cuts in economic output to lower the mean temp 1 degree centigrade do not look like good solutions to me.

Like i said. See, i actually agree with you here.

But you're not listening to me. What does a poor solution have to do with your stubbornness to accept the problem?

I'll argue against wrecking our economy until i'm blue in the face...it's not an effective solution. But that is a different question. What we ought to do about the problem is only a discussion i'm interested in having with people who take the time to figure out that there is a problem.

There's a ton of info here at LGF - it helped me make up my mind - i suggest you avail yourself of the same links, and stop making bad solutions an excuse for your thoughts about the problem.

356 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:52:38pm

re: #353 Eric

I apologize, perhaps I failed to communicate my ideas. Science is not the issue. Science is a dynamic process where hypotheses are tested and retested. Use of these scientific conclusions to further a political agenda is the point I am making. You cannot deny that this is the case. You simply cannot.

So basically, you don't like Gore so you're denying science, got it

357 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:53:12pm

re: #351 Eric

Aaaaaand Gorewin's law strikes again.

358 freetoken  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:53:53pm

re: #355 Aceofwhat?


What we ought to do about the problem is only a discussion i'm interested in having with people who take the time to figure out that there is a problem.


Yes, because arguing about how to proceed from here, with someone who denies the problem is guaranteed to be a waste of time.

It's hard enough to get those who accept the science to come up with policies to address the problem.

359 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:54:04pm

re: #353 Eric

I apologize, perhaps I failed to communicate my ideas. Science is not the issue. Science is a dynamic process where hypotheses are tested and retested. Use of these scientific conclusions to further a political agenda is the point I am making. You cannot deny that this is the case. You simply cannot.

Let us say for a second that you are right.

Having conceded that point, do you really think that an effective opposition is to pretend that the science is invalid, rather than proposing a more effective agenda given the existence of solid science? Come on.

So if i create a platform to advance curly, brown-haired caucasian rights based on the fact that the sky is blue, your tactic would be to say that the sky is green rather than argue that the color of the sky does not grant me superior racial status?

Think about it. I have Excedrin that you can borrow, if you have need.

360 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:54:35pm

re: #357 Fozzie Bear

Aaaand Gorewin's law strikes again.

It's like clockwork!

re: #354 Eric

You are a betting man, I am not. Regardless of your prestidigitative powers, it is for me a good barometer. Actions, not words. Wouldn't you agree?

I especially like this no-honest-I'm-a-smart-guy-I-use-big-words move here, even as he's denying science. Sticking feathers of your butt does not make you a chicken.

361 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:55:36pm

re: #358 freetoken

Yes, because arguing about how to proceed from here, with someone who denies the problem is guaranteed to be a waste of time.

It's hard enough to get those who accept the science to come up with policies to address the problem.

I certainly, for a time, allowed my opinion of many of the solutions to delay my acceptance of the problem. It was sloppy thinking then and it's sloppy thinking now.

362 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:56:46pm

re: #360 WindUpBird

I especially like this no-honest-I'm-a-smart-guy-I-use-big-words move here, even as he's denying science. Sticking feathers of your butt does not make you a chicken.

...that was awesome, coming as it did from an expert on avian transformation/

(what's up WUB!)

363 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:56:48pm

re: #361 Aceofwhat?

I certainly, for a time, allowed my opinion of many of the solutions to delay my acceptance of the problem. It was sloppy thinking then and it's sloppy thinking now.

Imagine if Eric was in charge of the Gulf oil spill

364 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:57:06pm

re: #362 Aceofwhat?

...that was awesome, coming as it did from an expert on avian transformation/

(what's up WUB!)

I wish I came up with it! It's a line from fight club :D :D

365 freetoken  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:57:34pm

re: #351 Eric

..., Even if i were to concede the globe was warming, draconian cuts in economic output to lower the mean temp 1 degree centigrade do not look like good solutions to me.

You think 1C is a small thing? Would it be better if we said "1000 milliKelvin"?

What if those 1000 milliKelvin is the difference between sea rising only 10 feet and 100 feet? Would that be worth an effort to change our societies?

366 Reginald Perrin  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:58:05pm

re: #352 freetoken

Could of bet on this one coming.

That's why I like to hang out at the bottom of Climate Change threads, the sleepers awake and make their zombie comments.

re: #353 Eric

So you find it offensive when politicians are trying to avert an imminent ecological disaster, what the hell are they supposed to do, drop the issue because right wing politicians are not willing to accept real science?

367 Eric  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 5:59:23pm

r: #355 cfwht?

c, hv bn rdng LGF fr vr sx yrs. Thr r sm gd lnks hr, bt thr r thrs lswhr tht prvd nfrmtn bt GW tht my dffr r dsgr wth yr (nd my) ndrstndng f th prblm. Scnc s nvr sttld. Th hstry f scntfc nqry s n f mssv prdgmtc chngs ( rmmbr vlcnsm, phlgstn?). Th scnc, vn wth GW, s nt nd shld nvr b cnsdrd sttld. Wht w r dscssng s sttn tht my mn th nd f cvlztn s w knw, prbbly nt thgh. Ths r tgh sss nd vry sltn sms t nvlv wlth rdstrbtn nd dclntn f cnmc ctvty. ths cncrns m.

Bdtm stry tm. GTG

368 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 6:00:14pm

re: #363 WindUpBird

Imagine if Eric was in charge of the Gulf oil spill

"I don't think dispersants are a good idea...therefore there is no oil spill."

The Matrix, this isn't. There really are spoons, i'm afraid...

369 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 6:00:19pm

re: #367 Eric

Ace, I have been reading LGF for over six years. There are some good links here, but there are others elsewhere that provide information about AGW that may differ or disagree with your (and my) understanding of the problem.

yeah, I'd like to see what those links are. I'm guessing you're not going to say.

370 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 6:01:25pm

re: #366 Reginald Perrin

That's why I like to hang out at the bottom of Climate Change threads, the sleepers awake and make their zombie comments.

re: #353 Eric

..snip

Legion of the Rear Guard

Youtube Video
371 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 6:01:38pm

re: #367 Eric

again, with the "solutions", as if they have anything to do with the validity of the problem. are you sure you've been reading LGF? you're hardly reading in this thread...

372 freetoken  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 6:21:13pm

re: #367 Eric

There are some good links here, but there are others elsewhere that provide information about AGW that may differ or disagree with your (and my) understanding of the problem.

Show them to me.


Science is never settled.

TEACH THE CONTROVERSY!!

Seriously, this is the same tack taken by creationists, and it was picked up by the AGW-deniers from them.

Do you really think climatologists don't know how science works?

Do you really think those climatologists have decided that there is no more work for them to do because they have answered every question?

You are grossly overplaying the paradigm shift card.

Whatever policies the nations of the world undertake to address climate change, one thing is certain - it will cost. Cost lots. No one (who is serious about it) is arguing otherwise. Even if we forgo any mitigation efforts, the adaptation costs to future climate change effects will be large, as without a doubt agriculture will be affected negatively in many parts of the world.

Without taking up any more time to write up a list of negative consequences, let me get to the punch-line: deciding to not do anything proactively about AGW is a decision that is fraught with problems, as adaptation alone will be a major turning point in human history.

373 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 6:27:03pm

re: #238 tradewind

The goading thing's a loser./

If you don't want to provide an evidence to back up your bullshit, don;t be surprised when we call it bullshit

When you say 'google it" and we do, and we find nothing, don't be surprised when we don't believe you.

374 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 6:28:37pm

re: #373 WindUpBird

Nice new avatar, btw....

375 sheepdogess  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 7:24:11pm

Gull
Eye
Gull

376 deadletterboy  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 8:25:23pm

I just e-mailed Fox News, to see if they plan on covering this. Who wants to take bets on if they do?

377 ben_t  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 9:09:56pm

re: #63 Fozzie Bear

How can you enlighten people who will deny that the dominant species on the surface of the planet can affect the climate? How can you argue intelligently with people who will deny that trillions of tons of a gaseous insulator being released into the atmosphere might have a net warming effect? How do you reason with those who will ignore a mountain of evidence because there may be a minor issue with the data?

If you can find a way to convince them of the obvious, please, let us all know. In the meantime, i'll continue to call those who deny the obvious morons.

You know, morons.

Morons, eh? Well, let's have a look at your bunk. To repeat what I've already quoted above:

How can you argue intelligently with people who will deny that trillions of tons of a gaseous insulator being released into the atmosphere might have a net warming effect?

Now, I know that "trillions of tons" seems like a lot, but when you compare this to the total mass of the atmosphere, which is on the order of several quadrillions of tons then not so much. You are making a mistake typical of lay persons when referring to large numbers but simultaneously ignoring scale. Morons indeed.

378 lostlakehiker  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 9:11:54pm

re: #73 b_sharp

Gore making millions is capitalism at its best. His organizations are being used to promote alternative energy sources. The fastest way to get humans to adopt new ideas is to make the old ideas overly expensive. Since AGW is somewhat in the future, we need to repackage the message to one of energy independence which can be made to look more immediate.

If Gore were making his money on the up and up, competing not for the favor of the government, but for the favor of the consumer, that would be great. But when his corporations get the nod for government grants, there is reason to think it's because of his position in the Party, not the merit of the technology.

How, seriously, is a Finnish company that's going to make electric luxury autos worthy of half-billion dollars in USA public funds? The market seems to think that if anybody can bring this off it'll be Tesla motors. And that's no sure thing.

Even before this, Gore was raking it in, and his operations have never amounted to anything in a purely commercial sense. Grant money flows, and his mansion gets bigger, and that's about the end of the tangible consequences.

Great things are happening in green tech, and I wish all the movers and shakers, the folk who develop the technology, and their investors, all the best. But it doesn't help us get to a green future when money is thrown at enterprises whose main merit is the pull of the guy backing them.

379 lostlakehiker  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 9:18:24pm

re: #377 ben_t

Now, I know that "trillions of tons" seems like a lot, but when you compare this to the total mass of the atmosphere, which is on the order of several quadrillions of tons then not so much. You are making a mistake typical of lay persons when referring to large numbers but simultaneously ignoring scale. Morons indeed.

If you think that parts per million is no big deal, would you object to ingesting a single microgram of pollonium? Think before you answer, because your answer will kill you if it's wrong.

The scale of additional human-supplied CO2 in the atmosphere is sufficient to move the relative abundance of CO2 up by 50%, 70%, (already), and eventually to more than double it. This is the gas that is the key reason why the surface of the earth is a lot warmer, on average, than the surface of the moon.

To imagine that a little bit of something cannot make a big difference is to discard the lessons of common sense. Nobody misses the fact that a little bit of silvering makes sunglasses a lot darker, that a little bit of poison can kill, and that a little bit of CO2 makes the atmosphere a much better blanket for the earth.

Nobody but ----well----you.

380 ben_t  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 9:53:18pm

re: #379 lostlakehiker

I didn't miss anything. The numbers you provide are reasonable. But Fozzie was calling folks morons while giving out pointless "huge" numbers as if the size of the number by itself is interesting. Trillions of tons!!! Trillions of tons seems large. ppm seems small. The relative scale and effects matter, and throwing seemingly large numbers around to sound smart is really dumb.

381 lostlakehiker  Thu, Jul 1, 2010 10:41:25pm

re: #351 Eric

Ace, I am uncertain anything needs to be done. You can scream and say the world is ending, it is not. The world will be here long after we are gone, just as it was long before we became homo sapiens sapiens, Even if i were to concede the globe was warming, draconian cuts in economic output to lower the mean temp 1 degree centigrade do not look like good solutions to me.

In short, I'll believe AGW is a crisis when the people who tell me it's a crisis (Gore et al.) start acting like its a crisis.

When the German army was rolling through the Ardennes in 1940, the French general staff didn't act like it was a crisis. It's entirely possible that there are people hitching a ride to a real crisis just for the sake of the white gloves and the leisurely lunches with wine. It's possible that Gore is one of them.

Bruce Bueno di Mosquito (spelling may be off a tad) has a book, the Predictioneer's Game, in which he explains, as an aside (he's not an AGW player, just watching from the sidelines) that he doesn't think anything will actually be done about the problem through politics. He's seen the political obstacles and they strike him as insurmountable. If he's right, and he's been right more than once when everybody else was wrong, that leaves us to find things to do that do not involve a sustained, serious hit to the economy.

What we need is a way to have our energy and our environment too. That means some combination of wind, solar, nuclear, passive solar [building things so they're efficient from the start], improved technology for lighting, electric cars, and all sorts of individually small-scale steps that collectively might add up. [Recycling, bio-fuels built not from burning food but from burning or metabolizing what we now deem waste, etc]. We need enhanced R&D into solar photovoltaic, because without at least one more doubling of its economic efficiency, we can't compete with coal. We need experience, through pilot plants, in building solar thermal power stations. We need a better electric transmission grid. High voltage DC, perhaps.

We need a better regulatory environment. Nuclear power plants built to a standard design should just automatically count as safe. No more of this NIMBY crap. Same with wind power off Nantuckett, etc. Same with the Nevada waste vault.

All this is doable. Much of it is being worked on right now. It won't wreck our economy. It won't even seriously dent it. Meanwhile, how's our oil and coal fired economy working? Is this an answer not just for today, but for tomorrow and for decades to come? For longer? You, or your children, will see those tomorrows. Even on the human scale of time, those days are not so distant as to be of no interest. We're running out of safe places to get oil from. If we get it from our own deep waters, well, just watch the evening news. If we get it from Saudi Arabia, what about the geopolitical price? What about the price price?

You have to compare green vs. conventional strategies going forward. The prudent thing to do, even if you rate AGW as less likely to be a big problem than it really is, is to cover our risks and do things we maybe should do anyhow.

Oh, and it is going to be a big problem. Heat waves are not good for crops, and the warming in the pipeline is sufficient to cause many a bad harvest.

382 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:56:50am

It's Sock Puppet Day at LGF. Whee!

383 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:09:07am

re: #374 Floral Giraffe

Nice new avatar, btw...

I do like the Electric Wizard :D

Youtube Video

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