Rand Paul Assailed by Tea Partiers for Taking DC Money (But They’re Fine with Neo-Nazi Money)

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Tea partiers and far right ideologues are angry at Rand Paul for taking GOP money.

Rand Paul’s campaign manager Jesse Benton explains:

The GOP primary was a battle for the direction of the party, and Paul won it with his platform of requiring balanced budgets and complete opposition to bailouts, said his campaign manager, Jesse Benton.

“Dr. Paul accepts financial support from anyone who wants to support his ideas of limited government, term limits, balanced budgets and real reform but makes it clear to them that money will not influence his votes or positions,” Benton said.

And we know that’s true, because neither Rand Paul nor his father have any problem accepting money from neo-Nazis, either. See:

Paulian Synchronicity
Ron Paul: No Problem with Donations from Neo-Nazis

At some point, would it be an appropriate question to ask why neo-Nazis and white supremacists are so strongly drawn toward the politics of the Paul family?

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294 comments
1 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 10:50:40am

Ahhh that new thread smell!

2 dragonfire1981  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 10:51:33am

So are we reaching a point (or are we at a point) where racism is considered socially acceptable again?

And if we are, how responsible is the GOP for getting us there?

3 jayzee  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 10:52:01am
At some point, would it be an appropriate question to ask why neo-Nazis and white supremacists are so strongly drawn toward the politics of the Paul family?

ABSOLUTELY. That point was during the 2008 GOP Presidential primaries (if not before). We shouldn’t stop now.

Hope all are enjoying the Independence Day holiday.

4 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 10:54:36am

Someone said the other day:

Being republican doesn’t make you a racist, but being a racist is more likely to make you a republican.

5 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 10:56:54am

Jesse Benton would never lie. No sir.

6 Redistributor  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 11:01:09am

New data shows a glut of available real estate, further supporting previous data showing collapsing real estate sales.

7 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 11:03:35am

Pamela Geller is inciting hatred against the Cordoba Project again, with the help of bottom feeder NY politician Jay Townsend. She just keeps repeating the lie that it’s a “mega-mosque overlooking Ground Zero.”

The first comment posted in her thread shows that her followers are getting the message loud and clear.

At some point, we are going to have to take off the gloves and stop being nice. What are we prepared to do remains the question.

8 Four More Tears  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 11:05:14am

re: #7 Charles

Pamela Geller is inciting hatred against the Cordoba Project again, with the help of bottom feeder NY politician Jay Townsend. She just keeps repeating the lie that it’s a “mega-mosque overlooking Ground Zero.”

The first comment posted in her thread shows that her followers are getting the message loud and clear.

I love the friggin’ cowards. “What are we prepared to do?” = Please do something, some other person.

9 theheat  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 11:09:39am

re: #8 JasonA

I wonder if anyone at Geller’s hangout ever gets how ironic it is, that a “mega” mosque can “overlook” ground zero, because the US has yet to do anything monumental i.e. big there.

10 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 11:10:27am

Here’s the most depressing part of the article above:

Others took a similar pragmatic view.

Richard Collinsworth, a retired insurance agent in Owensboro who has been active in the Tea Party movement, said he has some concerns about McConnell, but it doesn’t bother him that Paul is getting closer to the Senate minority leader.

“I see that Paul needs the Republican Party just like the Republican Party needs Paul,” Collinsworth said. “If he doesn’t get elected he’s not going to help anybody.”

The depressing part is how many Republicans see things that way, including Michael Steele, I think.

11 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 11:12:02am
12 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 11:19:34am

re: #10 wrenchwench

Here’s the most depressing part of the article above:
“I see that Paul needs the Republican Party just like the Republican Party needs Paul,” Collinsworth said. “If he doesn’t get elected he’s not going to help screw things up irretrievably for anybody.”
The depressing part is how many Republicans see things that way, including Michael Steele, I think.

FTFY

The depressing part is how many Republicans see things that way, including Michael Steele, I think.

13 lostlakehiker  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 11:38:39am
At some point, would it be an appropriate question to ask why neo-Nazis and white supremacists are so strongly drawn toward the politics of the Paul family?


Because the Paul policy is rather isolationist, and that means no support for Israel, for one thing.

Because the Paul mindset is to roll back the size and intrusiveness [and helpfulness, but they don’t see it that way] of the federal government, and one of the things that draws people into those movements is a prickly determination not to be hassled.

Because the Paul speeches dance up to the edge of endorsing conspiracy theories, [or walk right on across that line?] and the guys we’re talking about just lap that up.

Because while most whites are not much affected by affirmative action, working class white men sit at the very bottom of the pecking order. It takes a ruling by the Supreme Court to get the government to permit test results to stand in which those men do well. The libertarian side of the Paul’s philosophy would mitigate that situation. This is not to say that all working class white men are neo-nazis, but rather to say that neo-nazis generally come from the ranks of the white proletariat.

It’s not so much that the Paul-agenda is neo-nazi, as that the neo-nazis have no friends anywhere in government and must take what crumbs they can where they can get them. An isolationist, minimalist federal government would abandon Israel, and a lighter hand by the feds at home would take the sting out of some of the things that have pushed the buttons of working-class white men.

14 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 11:44:45am

re: #13 lostlakehiker

nice post

15 firstinla  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 11:45:49am

I’m looking forward to someone writing a book about the implosion of this once-upon-a- time great political party. The GOP has become an embarrassment and a source of shame. The Paulians and Tea Baggers influence, IMHO, is a form of political water boarding: I’ll doing anything you want, just stop. From Nor Luap and his spawn to Sarah Palin to Michael Steele, the assault against traditional Republican sensibilities is, to me, inexplicable. The addition of people like RSM, Pam Geller, et al, blocks the light at the end of the tunnel.

16 Summer Seale  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 11:50:56am

What if they gave a Tea Party, and nobody wore white hoods and armbands?

17 Lidane  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 11:56:00am

re: #15 firstinla

From Nor Luap and his spawn to Sarah Palin to Michael Steele, the assault against traditional Republican sensibilities is, to me, inexplicable. The addition of people like RSM, Pam Geller, et al, blocks the light at the end of the tunnel.

Thing is, these have been traditional Republican sensibilities for decades. It’s just that the more mainstream GOP voter hardly noticed it at all, because all of this garbage bubbled under the surface at the party base level. It just took the election of the first minority President to make those same people at the base flip their shit and start bringing their idiocy out for all to see.

18 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 11:57:01am

re: #16 Summer

What if they gave a Tea Party, and nobody wore white hoods and armbands?

Because of all the talk here about them (Tea Parties) I dropped in on two of them and didn’t see any (white hoods and armbands)

Keynote speaker at one of them was this gentleman, though

Youtube Video
19 Stonemason  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:05:19pm

re: #16 Summer

Happens all the time actually. Sure, there is a growing fringe, but the majority are still people of all colors and situations that want to see both political parties reign in spending.

No, I do not attend the gatherings, the fringe bothers me, so I won’t support the movement. This is called consistency, I asked Left Wingers, and still do, to not support movements that allow(ed) Answer, Communists, and anarchists to take roles in Left Wing activities.

20 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:07:42pm

re: #2 dragonfire1981

So are we reaching a point (or are we at a point) where racism is considered socially acceptable again?

no

21 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:11:01pm

re: #16 Summer

What if they gave a Tea Party, and nobody wore white hoods and armbands?

As Stonemason said, it happens a lot. However, it’s not good enough for most of the TP to be free of such vile company.

Good people throw racists out through the glass windows of the local tavern. That’s the part which didn’t happen in this little “movement”, and it’s not happening enough in the GOP.

The GOP isn’t racist. But it’s become far too tolerant of those who are, and i find that to be spineless and foul.

22 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:12:11pm

re: #17 Lidane

Thing is, these have been traditional Republican sensibilities for decades. It’s just that the more mainstream GOP voter hardly noticed it at all, because all of this garbage bubbled under the surface at the party base level. It just took the election of the first minority President to make those same people at the base flip their shit and start bringing their idiocy out for all to see.

I disagree. William Buckley was “traditional Republican sensibility”.

23 allegro  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:16:49pm

re: #22 Aceofwhat?

I disagree. William Buckley was “traditional Republican sensibility”.

So, apparently, was the Southern Strategy.

24 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:22:50pm

re: #21 Aceofwhat?
Racism is an evil that should not be tolerated by that extreme segment of the GOP where it still has vestiges, but neither should it be tolerated… or ignored, by Democrats who see no problem with an Attorney General who chooses to ignore voter intimidation by Black Panthers with nightsticks.

25 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:25:00pm

I’m not sure the widespread dislike for BO is because he is our first mixed race president…it may have started because he is an inexperienced product of the corrupt Chicago political machine, followed by his campaign speeches, most of which (the ones I listened to), wanted to make me puke…both of those factors followed by his bailouts of unions and failed Stimulus, which is a black hole money pit that pretty much is just another veiled gift to unions, drove people over the edge…combine those factors and every kook in America hit the bricks against him, racists, bigots, neoNazis, all of them are frothing now….BO and his legislation was the perfect storm

26 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:27:24pm

re: #24 tradewind

Racism is an evil that should not be tolerated by that extreme segment of the GOP where it still has vestiges, but neither should it be tolerated… or ignored, by Democrats who see no problem with an Attorney General who chooses to ignore voter intimidation by Black Panthers with nightsticks.

I have alluded to this myself…the dems are complicit by not speaking out themselves which helps to encourage the kooks…no question they are just sitting there watching this bad shit erupt, thinking about the political currency being generated….we are fucked

27 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:29:18pm

re: #20 Aceofwhat?
Well, Bill Clinton qualified that somewhat at Byrd’s funeral….
evidently racism is less offensive when ’ you’re only trying to get elected ‘.//
Sarc is mine: Quote was real.

28 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:30:41pm

re: #26 albusteve
I don’t know that it’s that bad. We still have the recourse of elections in this country.

29 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:32:23pm

re: #28 tradewind

I don’t know that it’s that bad. We still have the recourse of elections in this country.

we just have to wait and see, and hope that we still have the Law on our side, one of the reasons I do not dispute the Kagan nomination just because she is liberal

30 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:33:46pm

re: #29 albusteve

besides she is a great personality that makes a bunch of funny faces…heh, that counts for something eh?

31 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:34:30pm

re: #7 Charles

It’s just so damn backwards.

Much of Europe, being somewhat insular, has trouble assimilating immigrants. Misguided policies and private discrimination (it’s hard to find a job, especially for an immigrant) and liberal social attitudes (it’s really easy to get welfare, even for an immigrant) mix together to foster generations of unassimilated communities.

Here, immigration (even and especially ILLEGAL immigration, yes, i’m talking to you Tancredo) largely occurs as a pursuit of personal and financial improvement, creating large incentives to learn our language and our customs. In addition, our (generally) private friendliness and emphasis on meritocracies can help to make people feel welcome without having to shed every item of their heritage and history; our culture has its warts, but it’s not oppressive by any standard.

Pam is an idiot for many reasons, but primarily because she wholly fails to understand that we are far better equipped to root out the occasional devil when our arms are open; the more closed our stance, the more European we become.

Don’t get me wrong; j’adore l’Europe. But their attitudes and polices regarding immigration are only helpful in demonstrating what not to do…

32 Reginald Perrin  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:35:03pm

re: #26 albusteve

I have alluded to this myself…the dems are complicit by not speaking out themselves which helps to encourage the kooks…no question they are just sitting there watching this bad shit erupt, thinking about the political currency being generated…we are fucked

Shouldn’t that be the job of the media? What happened to the so called liberal media that the right is always crying about.

33 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:36:50pm

re: #23 allegro

So, apparently, was the Southern Strategy.



No it wasn’t.

34 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:38:28pm

re: #31 Aceofwhat?
It was the old post-colonial guilt syndrome that led Europe to embrace unchecked immigration in haste , which they are now regretting at their leisure.

35 Political Atheist  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:38:36pm

re: #25 albusteve
That’s just from the right!
Add this-Wildly insufficiently liberal for the national party machine apart from union relations. In multiple ways we have heard from the left-Gitmo, no public option medical/single payer, etc.
Add to that the substantial worries of the non partisan working person.
Rock And Hard Place.
Right now that job is perfectly thankless. The office itself may be unable to get all this done regardless of anyone you can imagine elected to it.

Imagine each of the primary contenders one by one. Both sides. See any winners?
I don’t.

36 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:39:15pm

re: #32 Reginald Perrin

Shouldn’t that be the job of the media? What happened to the so called liberal media that the right is always crying about.

it’s everybody’s job….that’s the reason Charles keeps putting up these posts…as for the media, I never expect them be fair and balanced…I hate those guys

37 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:39:32pm

re: #32 Reginald Perrin
They replaced journalism with advocacy, and haven’t looked back.

38 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:39:54pm

re: #27 tradewind

Well, Bill Clinton qualified that somewhat at Byrd’s funeral…
evidently racism is less offensive when ’ you’re only trying to get elected ‘.//
Sarc is mine: Quote was real.

Byrd apologized and regretted his earlier mistakes, as did Buckley. I’m inclined to forgive them both. Many don’t even grow enough to understand and admit where they went wrong.

39 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:41:47pm

re: #34 tradewind

It was the old post-colonial guilt syndrome that led Europe to embrace unchecked immigration in haste , which they are now regretting at their leisure.

There’s nothing wrong with immigration when the people are attracted by your shiny economy. It goes wrong when people are attracted by your shiny welfare…

…which, to be fair, is untrue of 95% of immigrants here in the States and some of the right wing needs to stop pretending otherwise.

40 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:42:20pm

re: #38 Aceofwhat?
I wasn’t trying to rehash Byrd. My point is that even Clinton tried to make excuses for what was clearly racist behavior by explaining it away as pragmatism.

41 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:43:42pm

re: #40 tradewind

I wasn’t trying to rehash Byrd. My point is that even Clinton tried to make excuses for what was clearly racist behavior by explaining it away as pragmatism.

he did…a wild ass indictment of politics in general….really a stupid thing to say

42 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:44:14pm

re: #41 albusteve

he did…a wild ass indictment of politics in general…really a stupid thing to say

but true

43 Lidane  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:44:48pm

re: #22 Aceofwhat?

I disagree. William Buckley was “traditional Republican sensibility”.

He was the intellectual sensibility. The traditional grassroots Republican party, at its base, has been incoherent at best, and far to the right at worst. What we’re seeing now here in Texas and across the country is a manifestation of what’s been coming for the last 40 years.

There’s a difference between the Buckleys of the world and the socons and far right folks that spent the last 40 years working their way up into the mechanisms of GOP power, and who are now running the party. Buckley is gone, and wouldn’t recognize this party at all.

44 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:44:53pm

re: #40 tradewind

I wasn’t trying to rehash Byrd. My point is that even Clinton tried to make excuses for what was clearly racist behavior by explaining it away as pragmatism.

Oh.

I think that Reid’s gaffe was enlightening. As the older generation passes, we’re losing much of the ‘traditional’ racist crowd. I think it becomes less acceptable, therefore, to be publicly racist…and that’s why i have no tolerance for it in my party, or even any tolerance for those who would tolerate it in my party.

45 Lidane  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:45:54pm

re: #23 allegro

So, apparently, was the Southern Strategy.

Exactly. And the Southern Strategy is what has given way to the current GOP.

It’s not Buckley anymore as much as it is Atwater.

46 zora  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:46:34pm

re: #40 tradewind

I wasn’t trying to rehash Byrd. My point is that even Clinton tried to make excuses for what was clearly racist behavior by explaining it away as pragmatism.

would you have preferred that he gave byrd “what for” at the funeral?

47 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:47:18pm

re: #39 Aceofwhat?
I would agree with you largely, but the ninety-five percent figure may be somewhat off. Many more than five percent of illegals are using social services to which they are not entitled, which is welfare any way you look at it.
I have been trying to thread a wonderful person through the system for two years now who has never taken a penny from the government, works diligently for everything that she has, is a single Mom to an honor student, and I still cannot get her visa papers cleared. Yet Auntie Z zooms right through after living on the dole for twelve years , flaunting a deportation order.
There’s no logic or justice to the system.

48 allegro  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:49:14pm

re: #33 Aceofwhat?

No it wasn’t.

So Reagan’s 1980 launch of his presidential campaign from Philadelphia, Mississippi was… what exactly?

49 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:49:27pm

re: #46 zora

would you have preferred that he gave byrd “what for” at the funeral?

Not at all. But Clinton could have done it without the “he (Byrd) had to do what he had to do for political gain”

Why not just state, as Byrd did on occasion, that it was a mistake

50 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:49:45pm

re: #43 Lidane

There’s a difference between the Buckleys of the world and the socons and far right folks that spent the last 40 years working their way up into the mechanisms of GOP power, and who are now running the party. Buckley is gone, and wouldn’t recognize this party at all.

Hell, I barely recognize this party, so you have a very fair point there.

My only difference, and it’s small, with your words above is that i don’t think the socons have “worked their way” into running the party. I think that it eroded by abandoning fiscal responsibility, and those like me who vote primarily on technical and economic principle had little motivation to continue. The socons didn’t take over so much as step into a vacuum, but now it’s a bugger trying to kick them back out.

51 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:50:21pm

re: #46 zora
I’m puzzled as to why he was moved to even go there. And I’m sure that the family would have preferred that he not.

52 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:50:25pm

Good afternoon, Lizards.

53 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:50:48pm

re: #49 sattv4u2
‘Zackly, thanks.

54 Linden Arden  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:50:56pm

re: #43 Lidane

Yes!

And the new Buckley today is David Frum.

55 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:51:00pm

re: #51 tradewind

I’m puzzled as to why he was moved to even go there. And I’m sure that the family would have preferred that he not.

My point exactly (49)

56 Reginald Perrin  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:51:06pm

re: #36 albusteve

it’s everybody’s job…that’s the reason Charles keeps putting up these posts…as for the media, I never expect them be fair and balanced…I hate those guys

I admire Charles for taking a stand and fighting for the truth. It’s sad to see the price he is paying, the astro-turf spin machine has their attack dogs savagely defaming him 24/7.
Isn’t an odd coincidence that three of the stalkers from the cesspool have recently been awarded positions as contributors at Pajamas Media? Am I being too cynical for believing that the positions were a reward for a stalking job well done.

57 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:51:12pm

re: #45 Lidane

Exactly. And the Southern Strategy is what has given way to the current GOP.

It’s not Buckley anymore as much as it is Atwater.

see my link above. the ‘southern strategy’ is doggerel.

58 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:52:02pm

re: #49 sattv4u2
Then again, you know the popular wisdom re Bubba: ’ The bride at every wedding, the corpse at every funeral ‘. Had he said nothing worth people talking about for days, he would have failed to generate the press he knows he so richly deserves./

59 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:52:57pm

re: #58 tradewind

Then again, you know the popular wisdom re Bubba: ’ The bride at every wedding, the corpse at every funeral ‘. Had he said nothing worth people talking about for days, he would have failed to generate the press he knows he so richly deserves./

“Enough about me. Lets talk about YOU. What do YOU think about me!?!?!”

//

60 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:54:36pm

re: #59 sattv4u2
Way to spin it.
:)

61 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:54:52pm

re: #48 allegro

So Reagan’s 1980 launch of his presidential campaign from Philadelphia, Mississippi was… what exactly?

I love it. I link to a summary of two respectable studies with data and you reply with something vaguely intended to be vaguely symbolic.

I’ll take that as a nolo contendere

62 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:55:13pm

Buckley would be run out as a RINO.

63 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:55:37pm

re: #56 Reginald Perrin

I admire Charles for taking a stand and fighting for the truth. It’s sad to see the price he is paying, the astro-turf spin machine has their attack dogs savagely defaming him 24/7.
Isn’t an odd coincidence that three of the stalkers from the cesspool have recently been awarded positions as contributors at Pajamas Media? Am I being too cynical for believing that the positions were a reward for a stalking job well done.

probably not….people are totally consumed with this internecine blog war…I’m not sure anybody outside the medium even knows or cares, but I’m sure if they did LGF would have much more positive influence than PJM

64 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:55:58pm

re: #56 Reginald Perrin

Isn’t an odd coincidence that three of the stalkers from the cesspool have recently been awarded positions as contributors at Pajamas Media? Am I being too cynical for believing that the positions were a reward for a stalking job well done.

nope. not being too cynical at all…too much history there for this to be a coincidence.

65 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:56:32pm

re: #61 Aceofwhat?

I love it. I link to a summary of two respectable studies with data and you reply with something vaguely intended to be vaguely symbolic.

I’ll take that as a nolo contendere

C’Mon. A well researched study by two college scholars as opposed to an Op/Ed piece? Theres’ no way you were going to win!!!
//

66 Lidane  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:56:35pm

re: #50 Aceofwhat?

Hell, I barely recognize this party, so you have a very fair point there.

My only difference, and it’s small, with your words above is that i don’t think the socons have “worked their way” into running the party. I think that it eroded by abandoning fiscal responsibility, and those like me who vote primarily on technical and economic principle had little motivation to continue. The socons didn’t take over so much as step into a vacuum, but now it’s a bugger trying to kick them back out.

Of course they worked their way into running it. They played the long game, going from mailing lists and AM radio starting in the 70’s, playing off the resentments over the civil rights and anti-war movements of the 60’s to their current railing against the bailouts and everything Obama says and does. It’s been a long, long road, and they run the show now.

Seriously— this is the Southern Strategy writ large, just with people now openly flipping their shit because we have a minority President. I’ve been seeing this for decades here in Texas. It just took Obama’s election for the mainstream GOP voter to notice what’s been right under their noses all along.

67 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:57:01pm

re: #62 Varek Raith

Buckley would be run out as a RINO.

Vote for Crist! RINO = the new GOP.

68 allegro  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:58:12pm

re: #61 Aceofwhat?

I love it. I link to a summary of two respectable studies with data and you reply with something vaguely intended to be vaguely symbolic.

I’ll take that as a nolo contendere

Then you deny that dog-whistle racism has NOT been a part of the Republican party leadership approach, especially in the South for some decades? The “law n’ order”, “welfare queens”, “states rights”, along with the blatant appeals to racist tendencies as seen lately? Seriously?

69 prairiefire  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:58:24pm

re: #67 Aceofwhat?

Vote for Crist! RINO = the new GOP.

Uhm, Ace? Crist is now an Independent.

70 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:58:28pm

re: #67 Aceofwhat?

Vote for Crist! RINO = the new GOP.

I likes it when someone asked the Lizard that pushes the WHIG party if a faux WHIG is a WINO!

71 Lidane  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:58:35pm

re: #57 Aceofwhat?

see my link above. the ‘southern strategy’ is doggerel.

Not really. I’ve seen it firsthand here in state politics. It’s there and has been there for a long time.

72 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:58:55pm

re: #62 Varek Raith

Buckley would be run out as a RINO.

maybe not…maybe it could have been the other way around….all this handwringing is a waste of time until we see if and when the kooks show they have much juice…to me it’s a toss up at this point…if all the silent conservative leaning voters would just vote, they’d probably blow out the kooks in one fell swoop

73 allegro  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:59:39pm

re: #68 allegro

Then you deny that dog-whistle racism has NOT been a part of the Republican party leadership approach, especially in the South for some decades? The “law n’ order”, “welfare queens”, “states rights”, along with the blatant appeals to racist tendencies as seen lately? Seriously?

PIMF

74 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:59:46pm

re: #72 albusteve

maybe not…maybe it could have been the other way around…all this handwringing is a waste of time until we see if and when the kooks show they have much juice…to me it’s a toss up at this point…if all the silent conservative leaning voters would just vote, they’d probably blow out the kooks in one fell swoop

Perhaps.
I’m just a cynic, afterall.

How ya doin?

75 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 12:59:55pm

re: #67 Aceofwhat?
The trial’s coming up just before the elections. I’m afraid that your boy’s gonna be portrayed as the ultimate wheeler-dealer-inside-good-time-Charlie-dirty-money candidate when it’s over.

76 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:00:04pm

re: #54 Linden Arden

Yes!

And the new Buckley today is David Frum.

And Frum has already been run out.

77 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:00:20pm

re: #68 allegro

Then you deny that dog-whistle racism has NOT been a part of the Republican party leadership approach, especially in the South for some decades? The “law n’ order”, “welfare queens”, “states rights”, along with the blatant appeals to racist tendencies as seen lately? Seriously?

Yeah. Heaven forbid we go bu the Rule Of Law in this country!

Feelings ,, nothing more than Feelings

THATS the way !!

78 allegro  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:01:25pm

re: #77 sattv4u2

Yeah. Heaven forbid we go bu the Rule Of Law in this country!

Feelings ,, nothing more than Feelings

THATS the way !!

So you have no legitimate argument then.

79 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:02:03pm

re: #74 Varek Raith

Perhaps.
I’m just a cynic, afterall.

How ya doin?

same old shit…if I had any guts I would not be going through this misery…I’m a chicken shit I guess

80 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:02:03pm

re: #78 allegro

So you have no legitimate argument then.

The Rule of Law =’s “no legit argument”!

Well,, you got me there !!

81 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:02:27pm

re: #66 Lidane

I agree to disagree. What you describe should have nominated Huckabee and McCain never should have had a chance.

I agree that the socons hold the reins now, but aside from the occasional pandering (McCain again), they can’t win much of anything without their sensible, intellectual older siblings. That’d be us - the center-right.

It’s also why fears of a theocracy are as overwrought as fears of socialism. The center won’t have it.

82 zora  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:02:32pm
In American politics, the Southern strategy is a Republican Party method of winning Southern states in the latter decades of the 20th century and first decade of the 21st century by exploiting opposition among the once segregationist South to the cultural upheaval of desegregation and the Civil Rights movement….


[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

southern strategy

83 Linden Arden  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:03:00pm

re: #76 wrenchwench

And Frum has already been run out.

At long last - the Birchers have their revenge!

84 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:03:06pm

re: #75 tradewind

The trial’s coming up just before the elections. I’m afraid that your boy’s gonna be portrayed as the ultimate wheeler-dealer-inside-good-time-Charlie-dirty-mone y candidate when it’s over.

so?…the perfect politician
where have you been?….people love that stuff

85 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:03:15pm

re: #69 prairiefire

Uhm, Ace? Crist is now an Independent.

I know. That was the joke. They think they kicked us out of the party…heh…wait until we win elections. Then we’ll see whose party it is!

86 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:03:39pm

re: #77 sattv4u2
As fervently as some would wish it, simply wrapping a term in quote marks does not suddenly render it irrelevant, obsolete, or inherently evil.

87 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:03:44pm

re: #82 zora

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

southern strategy

I’m aware of what wikipedia thinks it is. I linked to actual scholars.

88 allegro  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:04:03pm

re: #80 sattv4u2

The Rule of Law =’s “no legit argument”!

Well,, you got me there !!

Yet no answer to the fact of Reagan’s campaign launch from Philadelphia, MS, the welfare queen meme, etc. along with the racism that has been on exhibit here on the part of the rightwing here for months and months…

89 Lidane  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:05:18pm

re: #69 prairiefire

Uhm, Ace? Crist is now an Independent.

He’s also asking Democrats for money.

If it helps keep Rubio at home, I can’t say I disagree with it.

90 prairiefire  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:05:25pm

re: #85 Aceofwhat?

I know. That was the joke. They think they kicked us out of the party…heh…wait until we win elections. Then we’ll see whose party it is!

So, the Independents will then switch back to Republicans?

91 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:06:39pm

re: #68 allegro

Then you deny that dog-whistle racism has NOT been a part of the Republican party leadership approach, especially in the South for some decades? The “law n’ order”, “welfare queens”, “states rights”, along with the blatant appeals to racist tendencies as seen lately? Seriously?

As a strategy? Of course i deny it. That is not to deny that it happens in fits and starts. But poor white southerners tended to vote Democrat until the 90’s, and that conservative surge was on the back of a fiscal policy, not a racial policy.

Like. The. Numbers. Said.

92 allegro  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:07:18pm

re: #86 tradewind

As fervently as some would wish it, simply wrapping a term in quote marks does not suddenly render it irrelevant, obsolete, or inherently evil.

The “law ‘n order” in quotes is to depict the dog whistle use of the term. But you knew that.

93 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:07:28pm

re: #88 allegro

Yet no answer to the fact of Reagan’s campaign launch from Philadelphia, MS, the welfare queen meme, etc. along with the racism that has been on exhibit here on the part of the rightwing here for months and months…

Yet no answer other than citing an Op/Ed piece to “disprove” Aceofwhats #33

Got it!

94 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:08:15pm

re: #81 Aceofwhat?
And I feel perfectly safe saying I’d put money down that the GOP’s presidential ticket for ‘12 will not include a Tea Party candidate.
(On the other hand, since it’s really hard to dislodge an incumbent president, I kinda sorta hope they don’t waste anyone really wonderful trying this time around, unless Obama really steps in it, which is neither likely nor desirable).

95 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:08:35pm

re: #90 prairiefire

So, the Independents will then switch back to Republicans?

Or they’ll stay independent. Either way, the center-right candidate wins and there are bluebirds on Ace’s shoulder!

96 Linden Arden  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:09:35pm

FWIW, Reagan spoke against the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act.

At that - I bow out of this debate.

97 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:09:38pm

re: #92 allegro
It’s helpful when illustrating the blowing of a dog whistle to first ascertain that there are indeed dogs in range. I see that term tossed around a lot, when there are no dogs to be found.

98 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:10:01pm

re: #94 tradewind

And I feel perfectly safe saying I’d put money down that the GOP’s presidential ticket for ‘12 will not include a Tea Party candidate.
(On the other hand, since it’s really hard to dislodge an incumbent president, I kinda sorta hope they don’t waste anyone really wonderful trying this time around, unless Obama really steps in it, which is neither likely nor desirable).

Regardless of who the candidate is the far left will tar and feather that person with the Tea Party meme. They will come up with six-degrees-of-seperation linkage

99 prairiefire  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:10:17pm

re: #94 tradewind

I like that for a bumper sticker. “The GOP~Waiting For Mr. Wonderful.”

100 zora  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:10:23pm

re: #87 Aceofwhat?

what about what people from the south think about it. i’m from a state, va, that decided that confederate soldiers should be honored this year and slavery had nothing to do with the civil war, just northern aggression. they do this shit to build the base. in 2010. we don’t even have to go back to jim crow.

101 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:11:02pm

re: #94 tradewind

And I feel perfectly safe saying I’d put money down that the GOP’s presidential ticket for ‘12 will not include a Tea Party candidate.
(On the other hand, since it’s really hard to dislodge an incumbent president, I kinda sorta hope they don’t waste anyone really wonderful trying this time around, unless Obama really steps in it, which is neither likely nor desirable).

it seems to me he already has, and I’m hardly alone…the Stimulus has become the problem rather than the solution and many people are starting to wake up to it…how can the economy do anything but get worse?

102 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:11:21pm

re: #89 Lidane
He’s asking Democrats for money because the Republicans aren’t returning his phone calls.

103 Nimed  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:11:27pm

Buckley is overrated. The best conservative ideas of the last century didn’t come from conservatives, but from (non Paulian) libertarians. People like Milton Friedman in economics or Hayek in political science (though he was an economist, his best ideas were in public choice theory).

104 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:11:54pm

re: #75 tradewind

The trial’s coming up just before the elections. I’m afraid that your boy’s gonna be portrayed as the ultimate wheeler-dealer-inside-good-time-Charlie-dirty-mone y candidate when it’s over.

Yeah, Greer is so crooked, he could be mistaken for a Democrat

(zing!!)

105 Lidane  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:12:00pm

re: #81 Aceofwhat?

I agree to disagree. What you describe should have nominated Huckabee and McCain never should have had a chance.

Quite frankly, I’m still amazed McCain got nominated at all, given how much the far right has generally hated him for years.

As for Huckabee, his problem was that while he was strong in the South, he had no chance outside the South. However, his weaknesses also show the biggest problem with the GOP’s current idiocy. They’ve all but regionalized themselves since Obama got elected, acting like a white Southern party, playing on racial resentment and in general appealing to the farthest of the far right and to the Tea Party types. That can’t last forever, and it’s not going to hold because it won’t appeal to independents or moderates.

It’ll be interesting to see what they do in 2012.

I agree that the socons hold the reins now, but aside from the occasional pandering (McCain again), they can’t win much of anything without their sensible, intellectual older siblings. That’d be us - the center-right.

It’s also why fears of a theocracy are as overwrought as fears of socialism. The center won’t have it.

I don’t fear a theocracy. I fear this country losing a truly bipartisan system because one party is muddling their way through a Presidency (i.e., the Dems) and the other has its base losing their goddamn minds.

106 zora  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:12:07pm

bbiab

107 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:12:09pm

re: #99 prairiefire
There are a few people on deck.
You have to remember where BHO was on the radar two years before the convention.

108 Linden Arden  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:13:23pm

re: #103 Nimed

Hayek was a liberal who spoke against conservatives his entire life.

But your point might have been that conservatives co-opted his ideas (which is 100% true).

109 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:13:40pm

re: #104 Aceofwhat?
Crist’s problem is that Greer’s out of the picture as a Republican, but not as Charlie’s right hand man.
It’ll be interesting, for sure. I think even Democrats know that Meek’s not gonna inherit that earth.

110 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:13:50pm

re: #92 allegro

The “law ‘n order” in quotes is to depict the dog whistle use of the term. But you knew that.

That’s funny. the “law ‘n order” terrorism that was Rudi Giuliani seemed to accomplish what years of liberal sensibility could not. his approach was called racist by some. was it?

Let’s not go there. Not everything you can’t hear is a dog whistle. Sometimes it’s just your hearing.

111 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:14:00pm

Get President Obama off the TelePrompTer and he just goes stuck on stupid… if you have 10 minutes and some heavy duty pain killer, take a read of the transcript of his speech at Racine last week… if you want to skip the canned stuff, jump to the audience Q&A section about halfway down the page… it hurts bad… example…

Now, every economist who has looked at it has said that the recovery did its job. It put a brake on the collapse of the economy. We avoided a Great Depression. We are now growing again. The problem is, number one, it’s hard to argue sometimes, things would have been a lot worse. Right? So people kind of say, yeah, but unemployment is still at 9.6. Yes, but it’s not 12 or 13, or 15. People say, well, the stock market didn’t fully recover. Yeah, but it’s recovered more than people expected last year.

And tell this to the stock market…

So part of the challenge in delivering this message about all that the Recovery Act accomplished is that things are still tough, they just aren’t as bad as they could have been. They could have been a catastrophe. In that sense, it worked.

And just in case you missed it… the “tax cuts” made loosing your 401k easier…

So we sent — about $250 billion, about a third of that Recovery Act was in the form of tax cuts to all of you. You may not have noticed it because it just went into your weekly paycheck. But everybody here — I won’t say everybody because if you are really rich you might not have gotten one. But 95 percent of workers, 95 percent of workers got a tax cut last year. (Applause.)

So what that meant was even though you had seen your 401(k) go down, or maybe you’re a small business owner and you are tightening your belt, you had a little bit of extra money to cushion the blow. And that meant you were spending those dollars and circulating those into the economy. All right? So that was about a third of it.

[Link: www.wispolitics.com…]

Gold Plated Bullshit.

112 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:14:50pm

re: #107 tradewind

There are a few people on deck.
You have to remember where BHO was on the radar two years before the convention.

exactly…people can forget a lot in a very short time…BOs senate ‘present’ gig was short lived and he accomplished nothing…if he can get elected, anything can happen…I almost get bored pointing that out

113 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:15:21pm

re: #72 albusteve

maybe not…maybe it could have been the other way around…all this handwringing is a waste of time until we see if and when the kooks show they have much juice…to me it’s a toss up at this point…if all the silent conservative leaning voters would just vote, they’d probably blow out the kooks in one fell swoop

The GOP has long referred to some “silent” portion of their base that simply never existed. I don’t get why.

114 brookly red  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:15:32pm

re: #107 tradewind

There are a few people on deck.
You have to remember where BHO was on the radar two years before the convention.

true and the results of the mid-terms will of course influence the strategies for the 2012 run..

115 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:15:47pm

re: #100 zora

what about what people from the south think about it. i’m from a state, va, that decided that confederate soldiers should be honored this year and slavery had nothing to do with the civil war, just northern aggression. they do this shit to build the base. in 2010. we don’t even have to go back to jim crow.

pretty crappy.

i’m in a state, FL, that wouldn’t touch that with a 10ft pole.

maybe faux terms like ‘southern strategy’ are too broad for a discussion like this…

116 allegro  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:16:11pm

re: #110 Aceofwhat?

That’s funny. the “law ‘n order” terrorism that was Rudi Giuliani seemed to accomplish what years of liberal sensibility could not. his approach was called racist by some. was it?

Let’s not go there. Not everything you can’t hear is a dog whistle. Sometimes it’s just your hearing.

Perhaps because, like zora, I am in the south (Texas), I am well aware of what politicians here mean when they put “law ‘n order” at the top of their platforms.

117 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:16:25pm

re: #101 albusteve
It could get better. Right around October of ‘12, when all that porkulus finally gets unleashed.
Unless they really can’t wait and spend it this October.
It’s nearly all gone for non-private sector jobs, though, which is the heart of the matter, and the unfixable problem right now.

118 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:16:35pm

re: #111 Walter L. Newton

people suck up that shit like it was grilled Beef-O-Roni

119 Linden Arden  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:17:04pm

re: #111 Walter L. Newton

Get President Obama off the TelePrompTer and he just goes stuck on stupid… if you have 10 minutes and some heavy duty pain killer,

Like the three “off teleprompter” debates with McCain in which Obama easily won all three?

120 Nimed  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:17:17pm

re: #108 Linden Arden

Hayek was a liberal who spoke against conservatives his entire life.

But your point might have been that conservatives co-opted his ideas (which is 100% true).

Hayek is not a liberal in the modern use of the term. Maybe you mean something like “classical liberal”, which is closer to libertarianism than American liberalism.

121 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:17:21pm

re: #118 albusteve

people suck up that shit like it was grilled Beef-O-Roni

Grilled?
Neat.

122 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:17:27pm

re: #113 Fozzie Bear

The GOP has long referred to some “silent” portion of their base that simply never existed. I don’t get why.

if they don’t vote they are part of nothing, including the GOP

123 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:17:44pm

re: #115 Aceofwhat?
But to be fair, the lower half of your state is really New York , the Refugees.//

124 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:18:04pm

re: #119 Linden Arden

Like the three “off teleprompter” debates with McCain in which Obama easily won all three?

not too hard when you know the questions in advance

125 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:19:11pm

re: #119 Linden Arden
What color sky do you see?
There is no agreement that ’ Obama easily won all three debates ‘, outside of MSNBC and the NYT.

126 allegro  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:19:14pm

re: #124 albusteve

not too hard when you know the questions in advance

Are you saying that Obama knew the questions but McCain didn’t?

127 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:19:58pm

re: #126 allegro

Are you saying that Obama knew the questions but McCain didn’t?

Those from Alpha Draconis possess telepathic abilities.

128 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:20:21pm

re: #126 allegro

Are you saying that Obama knew the questions but McCain didn’t?

no I’m saying BOs has nicer hair, and delivery is more important than facts

129 Linden Arden  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:20:38pm

re: #120 Nimed

Hayek is not a liberal in the modern use of the term. Maybe you mean something like “classical liberal”, which is closer to libertarianism than American liberalism.

I do. But nevertheless, Hayek lived into the 80s and wrote Why I am not a Conservative.

130 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:20:46pm

re: #119 Linden Arden

Like the three “off teleprompter” debates with McCain in which Obama easily won all three?

I really don’t give a fuck… I’m talking about THIS SPEECH that he gave about the great economic recovery that we are in the mist of right now… last week… the election is OVER… you won… now, take responsibility for the jerk you got running the country… it’s all yours… get you head out of the fucking past and get ready, because the validity of blaming it on the last administration is slowing turning into smoke… and your fixing to get your ass whooped. The Dems have had the reigns since 2006.

131 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:20:56pm

re: #116 allegro

Perhaps because, like zora, I am in the south (Texas), I am well aware of what politicians here mean when they put “law ‘n order” at the top of their platforms.

And like Ace, I’m also in the south (Georgia) amd I too am “well aware” about what pols mean by law and order

Funny ,, here in Georgia BOTH parties run on that platform!

Guess we’re really Really REALLY racist!

132 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:21:04pm

re: #100 zora

what about what people from the south think about it. i’m from a state, va, that decided that confederate soldiers should be honored this year and slavery had nothing to do with the civil war, just northern aggression. they do this shit to build the base. in 2010. we don’t even have to go back to jim crow.

Right. Was it building the base when Gilmore did it in 2001?

Come on.

133 Nimed  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:21:57pm

re: #125 tradewind

What color sky do you see?
There is no agreement that ’ Obama easily won all three debates ‘, outside of MSNBC and the NYT.

9_9

Riight. Except in pretty much every poll after the debates.

134 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:22:06pm

re: #124 albusteve

not too hard when you know the questions in advance

Link?

135 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:22:34pm

re: #116 allegro

Perhaps because, like zora, I am in the south (Texas), I am well aware of what politicians here mean when they put “law ‘n order” at the top of their platforms.

Zora thinks that McDonnell was building the base in 2010 but Gilmore wasn’t building the base in 2001. Funny how things are only racist when a Republican says them, eh? You really think you can’t find Democrats running for office in the south who have law and order near the top of their platforms? But they’re not dogwhistling…because only Republicans can.

Come on.

136 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:23:00pm

re: #131 sattv4u2

And like Ace, I’m also in the south (Georgia) amd I too am “well aware” about what pols mean by law and order

Funny ,, here in Georgia BOTH parties run on that platform!

Guess we’re really Really REALLY racist!

GMTA, my Georgian friend…

137 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:23:12pm

re: #135 Aceofwhat?

gmta (131)

138 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:23:41pm

re: #136 Aceofwhat?

GMTA, my Georgian friend…

re: #137 sattv4u2

gmta (131)

Creepy…
Mind readers.
:P

139 allegro  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:23:51pm

re: #135 Aceofwhat?

Funny how things are only racist when a Republican says them, eh? You really think you can’t find Democrats running for office in the south who have law and order near the top of their platforms? But they’re not dogwhistling…because only Republicans can.

Come on.

Except, of course, I never said that.

140 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:23:52pm

re: #131 sattv4u2
Me too ( from the South), and law and order tops both D and R candidates’ lists.
Usually, when we hear that phrase, we think ’ I want nobody breaking in my house and stealing my stuff ‘…. not ’ what color are the crooks ? ‘

141 Nimed  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:24:04pm

re: #129 Linden Arden

I do. But nevertheless, Hayek lived into the 80s and wrote Why I am not a Conservative.

We agree. My first comment:

Buckley is overrated. The best conservative ideas of the last century didn’t come from conservatives, but from (non Paulian) libertarians. People like Milton Friedman in economics or Hayek in political science (though he was an economist, his best ideas were in public choice theory).

142 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:24:27pm

Really President Obama… yes.. the states are doing fine now… no thought of cutting services.. huh?

About a third of it was help to states and local governments so that they could plug their budget holes. So, for example, Jim Doyle here I think will testify, had we not provided this federal aid, the states would have had to cut much more severely police officers, teachers, firefighters, and so forth. Now, not only is that bad in terms of people then not getting services and being less safe, or kids not — having a larger class sizes or all those things, but obviously when those people lose their jobs they can’t spend money buying a new car or buying clothes or buying the computer for their kids. So it was — it put the states and local governments in a better position to kind of sustain themselves.

“To kind of sustain themselves.” Is that sort of like almost pregnant?

[Link: www.wispolitics.com…]

143 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:24:31pm

re: #123 tradewind

But to be fair, the lower half of your state is really New York , the Refugees.//

Heh. I’m Ohioan by birth…but southerner by address. These things don’t fit neatly into mythical flights of fancy like ‘southern strategies’…

144 Linden Arden  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:25:30pm

re: #130 Walter L. Newton

I really don’t give a fuck… I’m talking about THIS SPEECH that he gave about the great economic recovery that we are in the mist of right now… last week… the election is OVER… you won… now, take responsibility for the jerk you got running the country… it’s all yours… get you head out of the fucking past and get ready, because the validity of blaming it on the last administration is slowing turning into smoke… and your fixing to get your ass whooped. The Dems have had the reigns since 2006.

Calm down. Reagan got three years to turn things around (with Volcker) and he did.

What do you want from Obama?

A “malaise” speech? If he talked the $12 trillion of wealth that evaporated since 2007 would you approve?

Employment sucks. GDP is up incrementally. The fall has stopped.

145 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:25:57pm

re: #136 Aceofwhat?

re: #137 sattv4u2

gmta (131)

hehehe
AND,,,, to cap it off,, ,I was born and raised in Massachusetts where a close friend of mine ran (and won) as a Dem for a state senate seat which he soon parlayed into being States Senate President as (wait for it) the Law and Order candidate

146 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:26:04pm

re: #139 allegro

Except, of course, I never said that.

Bzzzt. Wrong. You said it by omission.

Are Democrats who tout law and order equally whistling for dogs, in your opinion? I assumed you believe the answer is ‘no’…because otherwise, you shouldn’t have singled out Republicans in your post above.

147 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:26:25pm

re: #145 sattv4u2

re: #137 sattv4u2

hehehe
AND,,, to cap it off,, ,I was born and raised in Massachusetts where a close friend of mine ran (and won) as a Dem for a state senate seat which he soon parlayed into being States Senate President as (wait for it) the Law and Order candidate

racist!!11!

148 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:26:56pm

re: #144 Linden Arden

Calm down. Reagan got three years to turn things around (with Volcker) and he did.

What do you want from Obama?

A “malaise” speech? If he talked the $12 trillion of wealth that evaporated since 2007 would you approve?

Employment sucks. GDP is up incrementally. The fall has stopped.

Yes, but the fall will definitely resume if we start taking austerity measures now. The danger of a second dip is real, and it’s a certainty if the public sector contracts too soon.

149 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:27:55pm

Armchair Economists!
:P

150 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:28:16pm

re: #147 Aceofwhat?

racist!!11!

Okay ,, but I ain’t buying one of those damn Kentucky T-Shirts!!

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

151 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:28:16pm

re: #148 Fozzie Bear

Yes, but the fall will definitely resume if we start taking austerity measures now. The danger of a second dip is real, and it’s a certainty if the public sector contracts too soon.

Or if we regulate things that (a) didn’t really cause the recession and (b) without understanding what will happen as a result of said regulation.

152 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:28:37pm

re: #134 wlewisiii

Link?

can’t find one

153 allegro  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:28:38pm

re: #146 Aceofwhat?

Bzzzt. Wrong. You said it by omission.

Are Democrats who tout law and order equally whistling for dogs, in your opinion? I assumed you believe the answer is ‘no’…because otherwise, you shouldn’t have singled out Republicans in your post above.

And you will note that the law n’ order meme is but one of a number of things I mentioned that in combination are used by the right to appeal to the racist members of the population. I see no answer to those other factors.

This omission was not mine.

154 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:28:42pm

re: #150 sattv4u2

Okay ,, but I ain’t buying one of those damn Kentucky T-Shirts!!

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Yeah. That was racist. No doubt about it.

155 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:29:32pm

re: #144 Linden Arden

Calm down. Reagan got three years to turn things around (with Volcker) and he did.

What do you want from Obama?

A “malaise” speech? If he talked the $12 trillion of wealth that evaporated since 2007 would you approve?

Employment sucks. GDP is up incrementally. The fall has stopped.

Stop living in the past… Savior Obama is failing… it doesn’t matter how Bush fucked up, how Reagan fucked up… they are gone, they are dead…

It’s amazing how the “you too” defense starts flying around here when it’s needed…

156 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:30:40pm

re: #144 Linden Arden

What do you want from Obama?


Curbs on government assumption of private sector responsibility.
No new taxes.
A climate that encourages private sector hiring and small business growth.
The repeal of the onerous parts of the HCA, with it limited to insurance reform and portability.
The orderly and responsible clearing of illegals who have been here for five years or more with no criminal record and who have a job to become citizens with no further fuss.
The securing of our borders.

157 zora  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:31:20pm

re: #132 Aceofwhat?

Right. Was it building the base when Gilmore did it in 2001?

Come on.

actually when gilmore did it, he mistakenly thought he could please everyone by honoring both union and confederate shoulders and black and white soldiers. thus making confederate history month all kumbaya. needless to say the racists were pissed off they he “blackened” their month and the rest of the citizens of both parties and no party thought the guy must be an idiot or have bad advisers.

158 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:31:47pm

re: #153 allegro

And you will note that the law n’ order meme is but one of a number of things I mentioned that in combination are used by the right to appeal to the racist members of the population. I see no answer to those other factors.

This omission was not mine.

Okay ,, lets deal with the others

Do you think welfare should be there as a safety net and a bridge, or as a way of life?

Do you believe the states or the feds should be THE authority to decide non-fed funded and non constitutionally mandated issues?

159 Nimed  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:32:10pm

re: #111 Walter L. Newton

Get President Obama off the TelePrompTer and he just goes stuck on stupid…

The teleprompter stuff is a really bad talking point because, as soon as you abandon the “it’s just my personal opinion”, there’s really nothing to back it up. There’s lots to criticize in the Obama Administration, but the man is eloquent and has a pretty strong command of the issues.

If there’s any doubt of that, I believe the health care summits are available on youtube.

160 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:32:14pm

re: #148 Fozzie Bear

Yes, but the fall will definitely resume if we start taking austerity measures now. The danger of a second dip is real, and it’s a certainty if the public sector contracts too soon.

fact…FDR was wrong…federal spending will not and cannot create wealth…wtf good does it do to create a job and pay for it with taxes?

161 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:32:35pm

re: #155 Walter L. Newton

Stop living in the past… Savior Obama is failing… it doesn’t matter how Bush fucked up, how Reagan fucked up… they are gone, they are dead…

It’s amazing how the “you too” defense starts flying around here when it’s needed…

Bush died??

I miss ONE day of reading the papers!!!!

//

163 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:33:26pm

re: #153 allegro

And you will note that the law n’ order meme is but one of a number of things I mentioned that in combination are used by the right to appeal to the racist members of the population. I see no answer to those other factors.

This omission was not mine.

Oh, in combination. So it’s like alchemy. Law n’ order is fine, but if you mix it with lizard’s blood and bats’ teeth, then all of a sudden it turns into a magic whistle that you can only hear while wearing white sheets.

I hadn’t addressed the other factors yet because i like to discuss one thing at a time…it’s a blog…gotta keep the posts pithy, you know. So I picked one of your ‘memes’ and went at it. But you’ve cleverly demonstrated that my one-at-a-time sensibility is thwarted by your alchemy.

Hot tip: if your points can’t stand individually, they aren’t good points.

164 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:33:26pm

re: #159 Nimed

The teleprompter stuff is a really bad talking point because, as soon as you abandon the “it’s just my personal opinion”, there’s really nothing to back it up. There’s lots to criticize in the Obama Administration, but the man is eloquent and has a pretty strong command of the issues.

If there’s any doubt of that, I believe the health care summits are available on youtube.

Pretty strong command of the issues… please stop feeding me that bullshit… read this speech…

[Link: www.wispolitics.com…]

165 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:33:37pm

re: #162 Killgore Trout

Angle Sends Cease-And-Desist To Reid — For Reposting Her Own Website

Lol.

166 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:34:42pm

re: #156 tradewind

Curbs on government assumption of private sector responsibility.
No new taxes.
A climate that encourages private sector hiring and small business growth.
The repeal of the onerous parts of the HCA, with it limited to insurance reform and portability.
The orderly and responsible clearing of illegals who have been here for five years or more with no criminal record and who have a job to become citizens with no further fuss.
The securing of our borders.

wow…amazing dems can never figure that out…BOs policies are creating an environment of uncertainty, never mind the looming tax increases…they fail to get it every time

167 allegro  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:34:42pm

re: #158 sattv4u2

Okay ,, lets deal with the others

Do you think welfare should be there as a safety net and a bridge, or as a way of life?

I think there should be a safety net, yes. I so not believe that there are many who make it a “way of life” by choice. I do want to see those who are disabled receive assistance.

Do you believe the states or the feds should be THE authority to decide non-fed funded and non constitutionally mandated issues?

You will have to be more specific in your question for me to offer an opinion.

168 Linden Arden  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:35:29pm

re: #156 tradewind

Curbs on government assumption of private sector responsibility.
No new taxes.
A climate that encourages private sector hiring and small business growth.
The repeal of the onerous parts of the HCA, with it limited to insurance reform and portability.
The orderly and responsible clearing of illegals who have been here for five years or more with no criminal record and who have a job to become citizens with no further fuss.
The securing of our borders.

Obama is collecting on TARP “assumption”.

He cut taxes $288 billion.


Small business now has a tax credit to hire.

The “onerous” parts of HCR don’t kick in until 2014 (ex. tanning booth tax)

Illegals have been ignored by the feds forever in this country.


I don’t see you have much of a case.

169 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:35:47pm

re: #159 Nimed

The teleprompter stuff is a really bad talking point because, as soon as you abandon the “it’s just my personal opinion”, there’s really nothing to back it up. There’s lots to criticize in the Obama Administration, but the man is eloquent and has a pretty strong command of the issues.

If there’s any doubt of that, I believe the health care summits are available on youtube.

Here is a strong command of the issues…

About a third of it was help to states and local governments so that they could plug their budget holes. So, for example, Jim Doyle here I think will testify, had we not provided this federal aid, the states would have had to cut much more severely police officers, teachers, firefighters, and so forth. Now, not only is that bad in terms of people then not getting services and being less safe, or kids not — having a larger class sizes or all those things, but obviously when those people lose their jobs they can’t spend money buying a new car or buying clothes or buying the computer for their kids. So it was — it put the states and local governments in a better position to kind of sustain themselves.

Has he picked up a newspaper lately?

[Link: www.wispolitics.com…]

170 zora  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:35:54pm

re: #157 zora

actually when gilmore did it, he mistakenly thought he could please everyone by honoring both union and confederate shoulders and black and white soldiers. thus making confederate history month all kumbaya. needless to say the racists were pissed off they that he “blackened” their month and the rest of the citizens of both parties and no party thought the guy must be an idiot or have bad advisers.

pimf

171 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:36:04pm

re: #157 zora

actually when gilmore did it, he mistakenly thought he could please everyone by honoring both union and confederate shoulders and black and white soldiers. thus making confederate history month all kumbaya. needless to say the racists were pissed off they he “blackened” their month and the rest of the citizens of both parties and no party thought the guy must be an idiot or have bad advisers.

so…when a democrat does it, it’s stupid but not racist?

honest question…i don’t see the difference. both of them were stupid. why is only one of them racist?

172 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:36:20pm

re: #167 allegro

You will have to be more specific in your question for me to offer an opinion.

Then you will have to be more specific before tossing the term “states rights” about, like it’s poison

The founders ensured that the fed was not omnipotent. Do you disagree with them?

173 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:36:22pm

re: #148 Fozzie Bear

Yes, but the fall will definitely resume if we start taking austerity measures now. The danger of a second dip is real, and it’s a certainty if the public sector contracts too soon.

Could someone translate this for me?

174 Nimed  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:36:48pm

re: #164 Walter L. Newton

Pretty strong command of the issues… please stop feeding me that bullshit… read this speech…

[Link: www.wispolitics.com…]

What you criticized in Obama’s statements so far is the use of colloquialisms — things like “kind of”, “folks”, etc. It’s pretty weak sauce.

175 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:37:36pm

re: #173 eclectic infidel

Could someone translate this for me?

Keep Spending ,, it’s only paper!

176 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:38:00pm

re: #162 Killgore Trout

Angle Sends Cease-And-Desist To Reid — For Reposting Her Own Website

i can’t BELIEVE we had a sure win and pissed it away with that idiot.

!@#$@$%@#$^!

177 brookly red  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:38:17pm

re: #166 albusteve

wow…amazing dems can never figure that out…BOs policies are creating an environment of uncertainty, never mind the looming tax increases…they fail to get it every time

there is certainty… if you spend more than you make you will certainly fail.

178 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:39:02pm

re: #177 brookly red

there is certainty… if you spend more than you make you will certainly fail.

a private business,, yes

government ,,, eh!

179 allegro  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:39:11pm

re: #163 Aceofwhat?

Oh, in combination. So it’s like alchemy. Law n’ order is fine, but if you mix it with lizard’s blood and bats’ teeth, then all of a sudden it turns into a magic whistle that you can only hear while wearing white sheets.

Yeah, kinda like a picture of the White House with watermelons growing on the lawn. Either one alone doesn’t make a statement. Put them together and the message is pretty clear.

180 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:39:15pm

re: #173 eclectic infidel

Could someone translate this for me?

If you start slashing unemployment benefits now, unemployment is sure to get worse, not better.

181 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:40:20pm

re: #162 Killgore Trout

Angle Sends Cease-And-Desist To Reid — For Reposting Her Own Website


Since Kragar seems to be absent…

STOP USING MY WORDS TO QUOTE ME!

182 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:40:33pm

re: #180 Fozzie Bear

If you start slashing unemployment benefits now, unemployment is sure to get worse, not better.

HUH???

K ,, lets say I’m on unemployment bennies that run out this month

YOU have a job

How does my running out of bennies mean that you lose your job!?!?

183 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:40:41pm

re: #168 Linden Arden
I haven’t talked to one person in business who thinks that the ’ tax credit for hiring ’ is worth the risk they would take in this climate. It’s irrelevant.

184 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:40:44pm

re: #180 Fozzie Bear

If you start slashing unemployment benefits now, unemployment is sure to get worse, not better.

how about lets find a way to pay for them?…does that make sense?…it was the donks that turned this issue last week, not the faunts

185 Lidane  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:40:48pm

re: #156 tradewind

The orderly and responsible clearing of illegals who have been here for five years or more with no criminal record and who have a job to become citizens with no further fuss.

As far as I can tell, that alone would cause a split in both parties, though it would be much more severe on the right.

Giving folks who are here illegally, but who have maintained employment and don’t have criminal records a path to citizenship would surely make heads explode among the folks who want to round up and deport the millions of illegals here, or lay landmines at the border, or shoot people on sight from the guard towers.

186 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:41:16pm

re: #182 sattv4u2

HUH???

K ,, lets say I’m on unemployment bennies that run out this month

YOU have a job

How does my running out of bennies mean that you lose your job!?!?

Because if you stop buying my product, I may have to lay someone off.

Is this seriously that mysterious?

187 zora  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:41:36pm

re: #171 Aceofwhat?

it doesn’t matter what party does it or the color of the offender. it’s called using context clues and you can judge for yourself. i was referring earlier to the southern strategy. exploiting the south’s racial wound for votes. it happens, no matter how many scholars say different.

188 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:41:49pm

Here’s a good paragraph by the “Clueless One”…

Third thing we’ve got to do is we’ve got to get control of our health care costs. Part of the reason we did health care reform — A lot of the reason to do health care reform was because it was the right thing to do. I was tired of hearing stories about parents who were worried about whether they could get health care for their kids, or somebody with a preexisting condition who wasn’t able to get insurance because they were discriminated against.

Once again… bullshit… from The Hill…

The Obama administration has not ruled out turning sick people away from an insurance program created by the new healthcare law to provide coverage for the uninsured.

[Link: thehill.com…]

Platinum Bullshit.

189 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:43:12pm

re: #174 Nimed

What you criticized in Obama’s statements so far is the use of colloquialisms — things like “kind of”, “folks”, etc. It’s pretty weak sauce.

You know exactly what I am saying… stop trying to blow smoke up our asses… I’m talking about content, not colloquialisms, and you are totally aware of that… you don’t have much of a comeback do you?

190 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:43:33pm

re: #186 Fozzie Bear

Because if you stop buying my product, I may have to lay someone off.

Is this seriously that mysterious?

Yes,, considering that
A) 90% are still employed
and
B) not ALL 10% lose their bennies the same exact time
and
C) we’re actually talking about a small percentage of those now without bennies than in years past
(unemployment was at 6%,, now 10,, a 4% increase

Not all those 4% lose bennies the same time, becuase they all didn’t lose their jobs at the same time)

191 brookly red  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:43:34pm

re: #186 Fozzie Bear

Because if you stop buying my product, I may have to lay someone off.

Is this seriously that mysterious?

well that would actually be true if unemployment insurance paid enough for someone to have discretionary spending, but in most cases it barley covers rent & utilities, so I gotta disagree.

192 Nimed  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:43:49pm

re: #166 albusteve

wow…amazing dems can never figure that out…BOs policies are creating an environment of uncertainty, never mind the looming tax increases…they fail to get it every time

No, the “environment of uncertainty” is the result of businesses being unsure of the future evolution of aggregate demand (not future tax burden).

See this - [Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

193 Linden Arden  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:43:50pm

re: #183 tradewind

I haven’t talked to one person in business who thinks that the ’ tax credit for hiring ’ is worth the risk they would take in this climate. It’s irrelevant.

Then they obviously believe in a sustained macro-economic collapse that began in 2007. Its a credible position to take.

So does Dr. Doom, Stiglitz, and other economists.

Has nothing to do with Obama.

194 windsagio  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:43:55pm

re: #188 Walter L. Newton

There’s a good aphorism for this: “Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good”.


Also, seroiusly, its like Mayday in that article.

195 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:45:05pm

re: #194 windsagio

There’s a good aphorism for this: “Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good”.

Also, seroiusly, its like Mayday in that article.

Read the whole article in The Hill… your wasting my time with stupid colloquialisms.

196 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:45:15pm

re: #167 allegro

I think there should be a safety net, yes. I so not believe that there are many who make it a “way of life” by choice.

IIRC, the number of families on welfare decreased by about 50% in the 10 years following the welfare reform act. Doesn’t that sorta contradict your belief?

197 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:45:18pm

re: #180 Fozzie Bear
Channeling Speaker Pelosi, are we?
The idea that people whose benefits run out can’t buy stuff so therefore employment will fall further is a straw man. If that’s the rationale for unemployment benefits, why not just call them a pathway to welfare… which they are not meant to be. They’re meant as a cushion to help while looking for work, not as a way to maintain a lifestyle while mulling over and rejecting jobs as not being as good as the one you lost.

198 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:45:20pm

re: #180 Fozzie Bear

If you start slashing unemployment benefits now, unemployment is sure to get worse, not better.

On that note, what happens when the benefits run out and our economy has remained the same? Even if the benefits are continued after July 12th, so what. Eventually they will run out. Then more ugliness will ensue.

199 windsagio  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:45:21pm

re: #183 tradewind

you’ve learned to make claims that *can’t* be backed up with links!

200 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:45:33pm

re: #191 brookly red

well that would actually be true if unemployment insurance paid enough for someone to have discretionary spending, but in most cases it barley covers rent & utilities, so I gotta disagree.

Thank you;;;; that would be “D” in my 190

The unepmloyed aren’t out on a buying spree

201 windsagio  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:45:45pm

re: #195 Walter L. Newton

Zing!

Is it mean walter today? I just got here :’(

202 Lidane  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:46:04pm

re: #187 zora

Speaking of context clues… Heh. (Slight NSFW warning!)

203 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:46:11pm

re: #201 windsagio

Zing!

Is it mean walter today? I just got here :’(

No… stupid comments.

204 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:46:17pm

re: #196 Aceofwhat?

IIRC, the number of families on welfare decreased by about 50% in the 10 years following the welfare reform act. Doesn’t that sorta contradict your belief?

ssshhhh,,,, you’ll harsh his buzz!!

205 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:47:07pm

re: #179 allegro

Yeah, kinda like a picture of the White House with watermelons growing on the lawn. Either one alone doesn’t make a statement. Put them together and the message is pretty clear.

i quite disagree that a law and order platform is watermelons on the lawn when a republican runs it and lilies on the pond when a democrat runs it. is that the strongest case you can make for this fabled dogwhistle?

206 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:47:17pm

re: #190 sattv4u2

Yes,, considering that
A) 90% are still employed
and
B) not ALL 10% lose their bennies the same exact time
and
C) we’re actually talking about a small percentage of those now without bennies than in years past
(unemployment was at 6%,, now 10,, a 4% increase

Not all those 4% lose bennies the same time, becuase they all didn’t lose their jobs at the same time)

What proportion that will lose their benefits, will stop spending, by necessity. And that expenditure is a contraction of the economy, which will lead to more job losses.
re: #191 brookly red

well that would actually be true if unemployment insurance paid enough for someone to have discretionary spending, but in most cases it barley covers rent & utilities, so I gotta disagree.

Rent and utilities are expenditures, and they do represent income for others. As does food, clothing, and every other necessity.

207 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:47:58pm

re: #185 Lidane
I think you’d be pleasantly surprised.
The most pressing concern is stopping the flood of unchecked illegal entry, and getting the criminal element that overcrowds the prisons of the border states controlled.

208 windsagio  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:48:13pm

re: #203 Walter L. Newton

Mmmhmm >> Cheer up!

Seriously tho’ walter, that article is freakin’ full of people who hate the healthcare plan being suddenly concerned that it may not be good enough.

209 Linden Arden  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:48:25pm

re: #196 Aceofwhat?

IIRC, the number of families on welfare decreased by about 50% in the 10 years following the welfare reform act. Doesn’t that sorta contradict your belief?

That is precisely what occurred.

Welfare Reform cut roles from 12 million to 4 million in 10 years 1998-08.

(Including children)

210 allegro  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:48:36pm

re: #196 Aceofwhat?

IIRC, the number of families on welfare decreased by about 50% in the 10 years following the welfare reform act. Doesn’t that sorta contradict your belief?

Not at all. Just stating that 50% fewer receive assistance is not providing information as to why they are no longer receiving it or why they may have needed it in the first place. For example, in Texas, Medicaid is unavailable to anyone who is not disabled or pregnant essentially. Anyone else, regardless of income or lack thereof, is SOL. There are many who are in need, but there is no assistance available.

211 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:49:00pm

re: #206 Fozzie Bear

What proportion that will lose their benefits, will stop spending, by necessity. And that expenditure is a contraction of the economy, which will lead to more job losses.

You have a terrible business model if you were depending on less than 4% of the workforce losing their jobs then their bennies at any given time!

212 windsagio  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:49:01pm

re: #207 tradewind

Do you really think there’s a link between the illegals and crimes that get people put in prison?

213 Nimed  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:49:38pm

re: #189 Walter L. Newton

You know exactly what I am saying… stop trying to blow smoke up our asses… I’m talking about content, not colloquialisms, and you are totally aware of that… you don’t have much of a comeback do you?

Relax, Walter. If you were criticizing content of the sentence in bold, you’re argument is even weaker.

214 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:49:59pm

re: #208 windsagio

Mmmhmm >> Cheer up!

Seriously tho’ walter, that article is freakin’ full of people who hate the healthcare plan being suddenly concerned that it may not be good enough.

And because the article is “full of people who hate the healthcare plan” that chances which facts?

215 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:50:44pm

re: #199 windsagio
I’m sorry, I can’t find anywhere in the bylaws where ’ all opinions must be accompanied by links ‘.
But by all means, do keep those peanut gallery observations coming.
Got a link for them?/

216 Lidane  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:51:04pm

re: #207 tradewind

I would love to be surprised, but when I see candidates talking about laying landmines at the border and getting support for it, I’m not all that inclined to hold my breath.

217 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:51:06pm

re: #187 zora

it doesn’t matter what party does it or the color of the offender. it’s called using context clues and you can judge for yourself. i was referring earlier to the southern strategy. exploiting the south’s racial wound for votes. it happens, no matter how many scholars say different.

you know what i call mysterious “context clues” assembled in disregard of scholarly work?

a losing argument.

because apparently, it does matter what party does it. otherwise you and allegro wouldn’t be telling me that action A is only racist when a Republican argument.

if you have something more compelling, i’m all ears.

218 windsagio  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:52:28pm

re: #214 Walter L. Newton

It doesn’t really have any general facts, man. Its just a bunch of hypotheticals… Unless you’re worried that Illegals can’t get coverage :)

219 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:52:31pm

re: #212 windsagio
/rolling eyes./
So you believe that the prison systems in the border states are easily handling the influx.
Check./

220 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:52:40pm

re: #207 tradewind

I think you’d be pleasantly surprised.
The most pressing concern is stopping the flood of unchecked illegal entry, and getting the criminal element that overcrowds the prisons of the border states controlled.

That’s only what they say for public consumption.

Apprehensions of illegal immigrants in the Arizona’s two Border Patrol sectors peaked at about 590,000 in 2004 and dropped to about 249,000 last year. There is wide agreement that the drop reflects a steep decrease in attempts to cross, due mostly to the recession but also to increased enforcement.

[…]

The number of “criminal aliens” admitted to Arizona’s prisons is down in the fiscal year that ended June 30. The number peaked in fiscal 2009 at 3,436 and dropped last year to 2,743.

Reality doesn’t matter, effectiveness of their proposed measures doesn’t matter. What matters is building (and/or pandering to) a base and getting elected.

221 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:53:04pm

re: #190 sattv4u2

Yes,, considering that
A) 90% are still employed
and
B) not ALL 10% lose their bennies the same exact time
and
C) we’re actually talking about a small percentage of those now without bennies than in years past
(unemployment was at 6%,, now 10,, a 4% increase

Not all those 4% lose bennies the same time, becuase they all didn’t lose their jobs at the same time)

I’m actually with Fozzie on this one. UBenefits should be extended as long as the job market is unnaturally tight. The numbers don’t show a plethora of open positions awaiting only a leap off of the couch. Until these folks have actual jobs to go back to, i’m more than happy to allocate some of my taxes to help them get by.

222 windsagio  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:53:23pm

re: #219 tradewind

That’s a “Dodge”, as we say in the game.

Do you really think illegals are seriously crowding our prisons?

223 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:53:27pm

re: #216 Lidane

I would love to be surprised, but when I see candidates talking about laying landmines at the border and getting support for it, I’m not all that inclined to hold my breath.

oof. yeah. that’s just bad.

224 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:53:30pm

re: #213 Nimed

Relax, Walter. If you were criticizing content of the sentence in bold, you’re argument is even weaker.

I guess I will have to spell it out to you so you don’t look too dense… “So it was — it put the states and local governments in a better position to kind of sustain themselves.”

The states are NOT IN A BETTER POSITION TO SUSTAIN THEMSELVES. Have you read any of the many articles how this state and that state is having to STILL cut services… you want we start with President Obamas home STATE…

“Illinois facing ‘outright disaster’ amid budget crisis ‘We are not paying bills for absolutely essential services … that is obscene’”

MSNBC Video

Now… go read the article and don’t bother me.

225 Linden Arden  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:53:36pm

re: #210 allegro

Not at all. Just stating that 50% fewer receive assistance is not providing information as to why they are no longer receiving it or why they may have needed it in the first place.


Why is easy.

The Welfare Modernization Act Clinton signed put a 5-yr maximum payout on TANF (welfare).

You drop off TANF in 5 years.

226 Nimed  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:53:52pm

re: #195 Walter L. Newton

Read the whole article in The Hill… your wasting my time with stupid colloquialisms.

Have you read the article you linked? Are you aware they are talking about a temporary fund until 2014 that may not be sufficient, and that further funding will almost certainly be approved by Congress if it isn’t?

227 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:54:14pm

re: #216 Lidane
By all means reach for the most extreme example imaginable.
On the other hand, there are candidates, I’m sure, who would like to see all border restrictions removed.
(No, I don’t know who they are.) But there are extremes on both sides.

228 windsagio  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:54:15pm

re: #226 Nimed

I think he’s just messing with us again >>

229 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:54:19pm

re: #221 Aceofwhat?

I’m actually with Fozzie on this one. UBenefits should be extended as long as the job market is unnaturally tight. The numbers don’t show a plethora of open positions awaiting only a leap off of the couch. Until these folks have actual jobs to go back to, i’m more than happy to allocate some of my taxes to help them get by.

I have no problem with extending bennioes at this time IF there’s a way to pay for them (as the repubs proposed)

But what we were talking about was the ‘welfare queen” comment,, the lifelong generational dependence on gov’t

230 allegro  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:54:57pm

re: #205 Aceofwhat?

i quite disagree that a law and order platform is watermelons on the lawn when a republican runs it and lilies on the pond when a democrat runs it. is that the strongest case you can make for this fabled dogwhistle?

So you intentionally (I assume) miss the point and toss out another strawman. I guess you don’t believe all of the posts Charles has been making and all of the pictures, such as that Whitehouse/watermelon mash-up, the bone through the nose, etc., ALL of which have come from the right as far as I am aware. Guess none of that has really happened?

231 brookly red  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:54:59pm

re: #221 Aceofwhat?

I’m actually with Fozzie on this one. UBenefits should be extended as long as the job market is unnaturally tight. The numbers don’t show a plethora of open positions awaiting only a leap off of the couch. Until these folks have actual jobs to go back to, i’m more than happy to allocate some of my taxes to help them get by.

well yes it should be extended but as a necessity, not as a jobs creator which it is not.

232 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:55:10pm

re: #222 windsagio
It doesn’t matter what I think. Ask the sheriffs of the local counties.

233 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:55:29pm

re: #210 allegro

Not at all. Just stating that 50% fewer receive assistance is not providing information as to why they are no longer receiving it or why they may have needed it in the first place. For example, in Texas, Medicaid is unavailable to anyone who is not disabled or pregnant essentially. Anyone else, regardless of income or lack thereof, is SOL. There are many who are in need, but there is no assistance available.

unemployment was not increased, in 2006, by people no longer receiving welfare but unable to find work.

ergo, the 50% no longer on welfare were working.

data…always look at the data.

234 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:56:08pm

re: #226 Nimed

Have you read the article you linked? Are you aware they are talking about a temporary fund until 2014 that may not be sufficient, and that further funding will almost certainly be approved by Congress if it isn’t?

And we are going to spend more money by 2014… The Clueless One said in Racine…

So we’ve got a tough job, but I think it’s a job that we can accomplish. And that is we stimulated the economy, we got it moving again, it’s growing again; we now have to, in a gradual way, reduce spending, particularly on those big-ticket items, but do so in a way that doesn’t hurt people. And that is a challenge.

Can’t have it all ways… can we?

235 allegro  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:56:09pm

re: #217 Aceofwhat?

otherwise you and allegro wouldn’t be telling me that action A is only racist when a Republican argument.

Yet neither of us have made such a claim.

236 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:56:22pm

re: #197 tradewind

Channeling Speaker Pelosi, are we?
The idea that people whose benefits run out can’t buy stuff so therefore employment will fall further is a straw man. If that’s the rationale for unemployment benefits, why not just call them a pathway to welfare… which they are not meant to be. They’re meant as a cushion to help while looking for work, not as a way to maintain a lifestyle while mulling over and rejecting jobs as not being as good as the one you lost.

Nope. Channeling basic economics. It’s a shame you don’t understand, because you probably vote.

No matter what business you are in, unless you build yachts or something, those are your customers, in part. They are looking for jobs, and until those jobs are generated within the private sector, the best thing to do is see that they have enough to survive, not only for them, but for the businesses that they patronize.

This is really, really basic economics. And basic morality.

237 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:56:42pm

re: #228 windsagio

I think he’s just messing with us again >>

No I’m not…

238 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:57:01pm

re: #232 tradewind

It doesn’t matter what I think. Ask the sheriffs of the local counties.

Or hey, ask the governor. She’s only been caught lying three times now.

239 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:57:29pm

re: #236 Fozzie Bear

It’s a shame you don’t understand, because you probably vote.

downding,,, uncalled for

240 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:57:44pm

re: #231 brookly red

well yes it should be extended but as a necessity, not as a jobs creator which it is not.

You can look at it as a stopgap against further job losses if you must. In a contracting economy, that is the reality. The second the contraction turns to expansion, it becomes job gains. The distinction is semantic, really.

241 windsagio  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:58:15pm

re: #232 tradewind

WW posted actual info above. For the record, There were 40,514 people in the AZ prisons in 2009.

242 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:58:39pm

re: #193 Linden Arden
Since Obama ran for president on a platform of ’ Saving you from Certain Doom ‘, it actually is.

243 windsagio  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:58:51pm

re: #237 Walter L. Newton

Don’t you see, you WOULD say that :D

244 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:58:57pm

re: #230 allegro

So you intentionally (I assume) miss the point and toss out another strawman. I guess you don’t believe all of the posts Charles has been making and all of the pictures, such as that Whitehouse/watermelon mash-up, the bone through the nose, etc., ALL of which have come from the right as far as I am aware. Guess none of that has really happened?

sure, it happened. it’s not the ‘southern strategy’, as i said above. i’m alarmed by the increase in racist outbursts, too, but we were discussing the myth of the southern strategy. that led to a discussion of why some things are only racist when republicans do them.

and i don’t think you know what a strawman means. i said that the same platform run by two different parties can’t only be racist in one occasion, in general. i disagreed that your analogy was accurate and made an analogy of my own. where did i build a strawman?

245 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:59:15pm

re: #239 sattv4u2


It’s a shame you don’t understand, because you probably vote.

downding,,, uncalled for

I have little patience for anti-intellectual garbage. “HURR HURR PELOSI” is a perfect example.

246 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 1:59:54pm

re: #235 allegro

Yet neither of us have made such a claim.

au contraire.

law n order is only racist when it’s republican, because they “mix” it differently.

is that not exactly what you said? please correct me otherwise.

247 Summer Seale  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:00:36pm

Hihi everyone,

I just noticed that on July 8th, I’ll be a three year old Lizaroid. =)

Btw, to the Conservative guys who are arguing on LGF and in this thread right now: I know what you’re saying, I totally agree with some of your totally well-founded criticisms, but you’re obviously in the exorcised minority of your party at this time. I’m seriously thinking you should be the loyal opposition and start a new group called: ReNoRaNoWaCo (Real Non Racist Non Wacko Conservatives) or something because, honestly, this country needs more than one party as we can clearly see at times. We don’t have a functional GOP because most of them right now are batshit insane.

248 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:00:48pm

re: #245 Fozzie Bear

I have little patience for anti-intellectual garbage. “HURR HURR PELOSI” is a perfect example.

All the poster stated is that you were echoing exactly what she stated last week

Youtube Video
249 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:00:48pm

re: #243 windsagio

Don’t you see, you WOULD say that :D

Whatever… I’m terribly serious… his speech and Q&A in Racine last week sounded like someone who was tap dancing faster than Ben Vereen…

250 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:00:56pm

re: #236 Fozzie Bear
And the path that we are on at present is doing absolutely nothing to encourage the promotion of private sector hiring.
Government jobs have made up almost every new job ’ created or saved ’ in this administration. (Check the figures for states individually… how many government jobs created, how many private sector jobs lost). And that is a discouragement to private sector hiring.

251 brookly red  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:01:21pm

re: #240 Fozzie Bear

You can look at it as a stopgap against further job losses if you must. In a contracting economy, that is the reality. The second the contraction turns to expansion, it becomes job gains. The distinction is semantic, really.

I will & do support extending UIBs as a safety net but it is only that, we will just have to disagree.

252 Lidane  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:01:35pm

re: #227 tradewind

By all means reach for the most extreme example imaginable.

The example might be extreme, but the sentiment behind it is what worries me more. Being Latina, I’m more sensitive to the whole immigrant issue, because there’s a fine line between a politician or advocacy group riling up anti-illegal immigrant sentiment and having it bloom into anti-Mexican or anti-Latino hate.

Just look at what happened to the Minutemen. They called for armed volunteers to come patrol the border then had to end up shutting down as a group because too many people came armed and ready to play at being vigilante border guards. And look at some of the shit going on in Arizona— politicians calling for firing teachers with accents, people demanding that school murals be whitewashed, etc. It’s all scary stuff, IMO. I can’t help but get nervous when I see things like that.

253 allegro  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:01:44pm

re: #233 Aceofwhat?

unemployment was not increased, in 2006, by people no longer receiving welfare but unable to find work.

ergo, the 50% no longer on welfare were working.

data…always look at the data.

No data you provided offers the conclusion you have come to. 50% who are no longer receiving welfare only means that 50% are no longer receiving welfare. Can you show that those 50% now have jobs?

254 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:02:00pm

re: #241 windsagio

Thanks. She seems to dodge my comments. :)

255 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:02:11pm

re: #231 brookly red

well yes it should be extended but as a necessity, not as a jobs creator which it is not.

agreed

256 Nimed  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:02:15pm

re: #224 Walter L. Newton

I guess I will have to spell it out to you so you don’t look too dense… “So it was — it put the states and local governments in a better position to kind of sustain themselves.”

The states are NOT IN A BETTER POSITION TO SUSTAIN THEMSELVES. Have you read any of the many articles how this state and that state is having to STILL cut services… you want we start with President Obamas home STATE…

“Illinois facing ‘outright disaster’ amid budget crisis ‘We are not paying bills for absolutely essential services … that is obscene’”

[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com…]

Now… go read the article and don’t bother me.

God, you’re being unusually stupid on this.

The states are being forced to make cuts, yes. But, without the Recovery Act, they would obviously be forced to make much more severe cuts. Hence “the states and local governments in a better position to kind of sustain themselves”.

The argument from the right here is particularly moronic:
“The stimulus package doesn’t do anything! Also, it’s not enough!”

257 windsagio  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:02:20pm

re: #249 Walter L. Newton

Alrighty! We can go back and argue about that article some more if you want!

258 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:02:33pm

re: #250 tradewind

And the path that we are on at present is doing absolutely nothing to encourage the promotion of private sector hiring.
Government jobs have made up almost every new job ’ created or saved ’ in this administration. (Check the figures for states individually… how many government jobs created, how many private sector jobs lost). And that is a discouragement to private sector hiring.

When unemployment hovers near 10%, no, it isn’t a discouragement to private sector job gains. It’s a discouragement to further contraction for the economy as a whole, and a discouragement to starvation for the individuals in question.

259 allegro  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:03:07pm

re: #244 Aceofwhat?

where did i build a strawman?

By insisting on the following:

that led to a discussion of why some things are only racist when republicans do them.

Which no one has said except you.

260 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:04:10pm

re: #252 Lidane
I can certainly understand a personal stake making a difference.

261 windsagio  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:04:40pm

re: #256 Nimed

Well you know how it is, a leftie did it (even tho it was Bush, first), so it must be the wrong thing to do!

Also, DUHH GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION BAD!!!

262 windsagio  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:06:06pm

Moods a bit heavy, so I”ll try to share some good mood.

Something I saw when I was running all those extra shifts last week that I can’t get out of my head.

Youtube Video
263 Nimed  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:07:40pm

re: #234 Walter L. Newton

Can’t have it all ways… can we?

You’re moving the goal posts, Walter. You were criticizing Obama’s statements regarding health care and touting the teleprompter talking point. Now that you realize that his statement about HCR are accurate, you’re changing the subject.

You should really either stick to your initial argument or admit you were wrong. :)

264 Nimed  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:09:12pm

re: #261 windsagio

Well you know how it is, a leftie did it (even tho it was Bush, first), so it must be the wrong thing to do!

Also, DUHH GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION BAD!!!

Right. I guess a modicum of coherence is too much to ask.

265 albusteve  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:09:57pm

amazing…so much pretzel logic, as if people cannot believe their own eyes and ears…the fundamental problem in this country….bad is really good if you look at it that way long enough…this unreasonable faith in BO is astounding

266 windsagio  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:10:35pm

re: #264 Nimed

Your philosophy about how government should work is more important than government actually working!

267 Lidane  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:10:43pm

re: #260 tradewind

It’s not that I have a personal stake. I mean, my dad was a Mexican citizen who got naturalized as an American, but it’s not about that. I just see what’s going on and it makes me nervous.

I’ll give an example. My first language was Spanish. I didn’t learn English until I was almost in kindergarten. I think about all these puffed up wannabe vigilantes demanding mass deportations, English Only laws and targeting people who speak Spanish exclusively or with an accent, and I can’t help but wonder if they’d have gone after me when I was a little girl.

It’s a real fine line between being anti-illegal immigrant and targeting people for who they are. I just hope the people stirring the pot can see the difference.

268 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:12:10pm

re: #241 windsagio
From your link, describing first- time offenders, non violent…

54.2 percent have ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement) detainers and are likely undocumented aliens

Last time I looked, that percentage constituted a majority.
No telling what the percentage is re violent offenders, or repeats.

269 windsagio  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:12:20pm

re: #267 Lidane

I think its more that the ‘anti-illegal immigrant’ thing often flips over into being a smokescreen for the other.

270 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:12:46pm

re: #256 Nimed

God, you’re being unusually stupid on this.

The states are being forced to make cuts, yes. But, without the Recovery Act, they would obviously be forced to make much more severe cuts. Hence “the states and local governments in a better position to kind of sustain themselves”.

The argument from the right here is particularly moronic:
“The stimulus package doesn’t do anything! Also, it’s not enough!”

Exactly. The second derivative of job and revenue gains will always become positive before the first derivative. WHen the rate of loss is slowing… that’s a gain in real terms, in the sense that the situation is moving toward growth.

271 tradewind  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:14:04pm

re: #267 Lidane
That’s why it’s important to let the people who have been here for say , five years, working, as non-criminals, become citizens asap, and to then seal the borders so that orderly, legal immigration can resume. That removes a lot of the reason to ’ target ’
individuals.

272 lostlakehiker  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:15:50pm

re: #119 Linden Arden

Like the three “off teleprompter” debates with McCain in which Obama easily won all three?

McCain didn’t offer Obama the stiffest of competition. Nor did the format provide much of a challenge. With no sustained, cross-examination type situation such as the prime minister in Britain must stand up to from time to time, there’s just no way to tell if the guy is getting by on prepared talking points, or actually has his head in the game and knows what he’s talking about.

He? Maggie was tops at that! But I digress.

273 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:17:20pm

re: #267 Lidane

I just see what’s going on

Right, it’s not a personal stake, it’s a perspective that differs from Tradewind’s. I’m sure she can understand it, but I’m not sure she can relate to it. And I’m not sure she has empathy; that’s why she called it a stake, as though you have a personal gain to consider in the outcome.

274 Lidane  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:18:12pm

re: #271 tradewind

Two quibbles with what you’re saying:

1. We will never be able to seal the border. Ever. We might be able to secure it more, but sealing it is impossible and will never happen.

2. Our legal immigration process is anything but orderly. It’s why there are so many folks who are considered illegal now. Either their visas ran out, or they got stuck in the system somewhere, or their lottery number hasn’t come up, or whatnot.

We need to overhaul that and get those people processed first, then give the ones who crossed the border illegally, but who otherwise don’t break laws and who maintain employment their own path. Right now, the whole system is FUBAR, so even if we somehow miraculously sealed the border, immigration would still be fucked.

275 windsagio  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:18:36pm

re: #268 tradewind

We know how many there were from WW’s link above. 2600-3600 isn’t 54% of 40,000. To do some mathcraft, ~1200 of the first-timers are illegals (40000x.06(percent population of firsttime/nonviolent)x.54(percent of that group that were illegals). So the other 1400-2400 were totally violent!

(all numbers taken from WW’s link or My link above, rounded for ease, and just for interest, not for statistics)

276 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:19:23pm

re: #271 tradewind

That’s why it’s important to let the people who have been here for say , five years, working, as non-criminals, become citizens asap, and to then seal the borders so that orderly, legal immigration can resume. That removes a lot of the reason to ’ target ’
individuals.

There is no “seal the borders”. People who say that has to come before “orderly immigration” want to put off “orderly immigration” as long as possible.

277 windsagio  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:20:45pm

re: #271 tradewind

Also, you keep implying that the illegal immigrants are a huge factor in violent crime. As far as I can tell, there’s absolutely no evidence that that’s true, except for nativist/racist ravings.

278 allegro  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:21:36pm

re: #244 Aceofwhat?

sure, it happened. it’s not the ‘southern strategy’, as i said above.

Just one more point. The article/study you linked stated that the reasons Southerners voted Rep was due to economics as opposed to a racist southern strategy. All this really means, if they are correct, is that the strategy wasn’t the effective message, not that it wasn’t delivered with intent. There is too much history to demonstrate that the southern strategy is not a figment of mass imagination.

279 windsagio  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:22:35pm

re: #278 allegro

There’s also all those dixiecrats that turned Republican >>

280 lostlakehiker  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:26:23pm

re: #267 Lidane

It’s not that I have a personal stake. I mean, my dad was a Mexican citizen who got naturalized as an American, but it’s not about that. I just see what’s going on and it makes me nervous.

I’ll give an example. My first language was Spanish. I didn’t learn English until I was almost in kindergarten. I think about all these puffed up wannabe vigilantes demanding mass deportations, English Only laws and targeting people who speak Spanish exclusively or with an accent, and I can’t help but wonder if they’d have gone after me when I was a little girl.

It’s a real fine line between being anti-illegal immigrant and targeting people for who they are. I just hope the people stirring the pot can see the difference.

We’re delighted to have you, and we’re tickled pink you learned English right away. And hell, I wouldn’t want to be deported either for speaking Spanish with an accent.

;-)

Apart from people who are into advanced old age and cannot hope to learn a new language, every immigrant should learn the language of his new home. Citizenship has its duties and these are more easily discharged if one can talk readily with the rest of the people, read the newspapers, and take up any line of work that one’s talents and strength will permit.

The people of Fredericksburg, Texas stuck with German until WW1, when they concluded that it might win good will if they switched their schools over to instruction in English. The old language is a comfortable old sweater and it’s great for home use, but for community use, it’s better to “migrate” to the new language as quickly as possible.

281 windsagio  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:28:35pm

re: #280 lostlakehiker

alot of people do, or try.

There are some problems with how well kids can learn in languages they don’t know well tho’, and thats where the bilingual education, etc comes from.

Same thing with government forms and such.

282 prairiefire  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:32:02pm

re: #262 windsagio

Moods a bit heavy, so I”ll try to share some good mood.

Something I saw when I was running all those extra shifts last week that I can’t get out of my head.


[Video]

We love “Adventuretime” at our house.

283 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:32:40pm

re: #279 windsagio

There’s also all those dixiecrats that turned Republican >>

not nearly as many as thought, and most of them not even close to “leaders” of the dems at the time


Robert Byrd
Richard Russell
Al Gore Sr.
Mike Mansfield
et al
And the fact remains that they were 1st and foremost democrats at the time of the Civil Rights Act

284 windsagio  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:34:23pm

re: #283 sattv4u2

ROBERT BYRD!

285 blueraven  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:34:50pm

re: #188 Walter L. Newton

Here’s a good paragraph by the “Clueless One”…

[Link: thehill.com…]

Platinum Bullshit.

So everything is not perfect Walter? Is that the problem? Obama has often quoted “lets not let the perfect be the enemy of the good”. It was the best quick option to get the people with pre-existing conditions into some kind of program until the bill kicks in in 2014.

286 windsagio  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:35:16pm

re: #282 prairiefire

Its freakin’ Genius. Of course almost all the things Cartoon network produces themselves are great. “Chowder” and “Flapjack” are wonderful too.

287 Linden Arden  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:35:18pm

re: #272 lostlakehiker

McCain didn’t offer Obama the stiffest of competition.

McCain had just admitted the economy “wasn’t his strong suit” and suspended his campaign.

I agree with you - parliament style examination is best.

Our wise man - Warren Buffet —- had also just said he wouldn’t vote for McCain if he got the lobotomy he needed.

McCain had just advocated war on Russia in response to the Georgia conflict.

McCain was lost.

288 prairiefire  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:36:27pm

re: #267 Lidane

The people stirring the pot do not care about the difference.

289 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:37:06pm

re: #283 sattv4u2

not nearly as many as thought, and most of them not even close to “leaders” of the dems at the time

Robert Byrd
Richard Russell
Al Gore Sr.
Mike Mansfield
Howard W. Smith
et al
And the fact remains that they were 1st and foremost democrats at the time of the Civil Rights Act

sorry ,was doing ot from memory

Mansfield was actually a strong proponent along with Hubert Humphrey

290 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:38:17pm

re: #284 windsagio

ROBERT BYRD!

yup ,, because you capitalized it it didn’t happen!!

And Byrd was one of those Dixiecrats that switched to the Repub side !!!
{sigh}

291 prairiefire  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:38:24pm

re: #286 windsagio

Its freakin’ Genius. Of course almost all the things Cartoon network produces themselves are great. “Chowder” and “Flapjack” are wonderful too.

We are foodies and we come up with new character names for “Chowder’ to pass the time.

292 windsagio  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:42:40pm

re: #291 prairiefire

Gotta go out, but something I noticed from that show.

All the people are named after real food items, but all the foods they prepare are made up!

293 Lidane  Mon, Jul 5, 2010 2:58:23pm

re: #280 lostlakehiker

We’re delighted to have you, and we’re tickled pink you learned English right away. And hell, I wouldn’t want to be deported either for speaking Spanish with an accent.

;-)

Heh, thanks. I was actually born here, though. I’m American, and always have been. My dad went through his naturalization when he was in high school, I think. I wasn’t born until he was in his 30’s.

The reason I spoke Spanish first was because my family thought it would be easier for me to learn it first, then pick up English before I started school. Since my family is American and we pretty much switch between both languages during the same conversation (i.e., Spanglish at it’s finest. Heh.), it was pretty much inevitable that I’d grow up knowing both languages. I still switch back and forth when it comes to TV, books, and music. I like being able to move between them. It’s great. :D

Apart from people who are into advanced old age and cannot hope to learn a new language, every immigrant should learn the language of his new home. Citizenship has its duties and these are more easily discharged if one can talk readily with the rest of the people, read the newspapers, and take up any line of work that one’s talents and strength will permit.

Well, sure. But it doesn’t help anyone to completely block out all government services except to those with total fluency in English. It’s better to offer help in more than one language to ease the transition towards learning English, or for those older immigrants who cannot learn a new language.

294 akarra  Tue, Jul 6, 2010 5:16:33am

I had not seen the original Ron Paul post where he gladly accepted money from Neo-Nazis. That has been bookmarked and will be promptly sent to anyone who tells me that Ron Paul is the only hope for the country.


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Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
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