Another Investigation Exonerates the ‘Climategate’ Scientists

By now it’s clear that the media, the public, and right wing politicians were taken in, punk’d if you will, by the thoroughly dishonest hoax known as “Climategate.” Today another investigation by a British panel cleared the climate scientists of the CRU.

“On the specific allegations made against the behavior of C.R.U. scientists, we find that their rigor and honesty as scientists are not in doubt,” said the new review, led by Muir Russell, a leading British civil servant and educator.

The Russell panel also found little reason to question the advice the scientists had given to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the United Nations body that produces a major review of the science of global warming every few years. The new report said that “we did not find any evidence of behavior that might undermine the conclusions of the I.P.C.C. assessments.”

This is the fifth investigation, and all five have completely exonerated the climatologists of any scientific wrongdoing. Yet we see no acknowledgment of this exoneration at the many right wing and climate change denial websites that so enthusiastically pimped this phony scandal; in fact, we see exactly the opposite. It’s now an article of faith among this crowd that “Climategate” was the final proof that super-evil scientific Illuminati are conspiring to take away their SUVs.

One day, the investigation into the hacking of the CRU’s servers may reveal who stole and cherry-picked their emails and program code, and that should be very interesting.

Jump to bottom

562 comments
1 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 1:35:11pm

Hear the truth, believe the lie.

2 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 1:36:01pm

There are bigger truths, ones that go beyond assessing mere facts and scientific conclusions.

/

3 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 1:36:38pm

The damage is done, at a very, very critical time.

I do not understand the nihilism of the climate change deniers. Don’t they have children? Don’t they care about the future at all?

I can’t understand it.

4 freetoken  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 1:44:05pm
One day, the investigation into the hacking of the CRU’s servers may reveal who stole and cherry-picked their emails and program code, and that should be very interesting.

As you discovered with “Rathergate”, unfortunately there is little demand among the news industry to follow up on stories to get to the bottom of messes, once the sell-by date has passed on any news item.

Looking at the comments on stories about this latest vindication, on sites from the WSJ to your neighborhood wingnut blog, it’s clear that the vested hatred so many have against AGW-science and its proponents just isn’t going away.

5 srjh  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 1:44:13pm

With five separate, independent investigations finding that the claims were rubbish, surely it’s time to put “climategate” to bed?

I’m hoping that the vindications will get the same coverage that the outrageous claims did, but I’m not at all confident about that. The negligence of many media sources on this has been truly appalling.

And we have conspiracy theorists claiming… conspiracy. Did anyone not see the whole thing coming, vindication, “whitewash” claims, and all?

6 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 1:46:00pm

re: #4 freetoken

As you discovered with “Rathergate”, unfortunately there is little demand among the news industry to follow up on stories to get to the bottom of messes, once the sell-by date has passed on any news item.

Looking at the comments on stories about this latest vindication, on sites from the WSJ to your neighborhood wingnut blog, it’s clear that the vested hatred so many have against AGW-science and its proponents just isn’t going away.

no glamor in it…no stunning phony shock value….ho hum
I hold the MSM partially responsible….I hate those guys

7 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 1:46:16pm

How many investigations are left after this one?

8 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 1:47:18pm

re: #7 jamesfirecat

How many investigations are left after this one?

including the investigations of the investigations?…it may be infinate

9 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 1:47:55pm

re: #5 srjh

Quite a few people here didn’t see it coming; Walter claimed that he was going to demonstrate errors produced by the CRU code, but (obviously) completely failed to do so. Many others attacked CRU and other scientists in various ways for a long period of time.

Unfortunately, even otherwise intelligent people can easily be sucked into climate change denial. I’m not sure why.

For the general public, our terrible anti-science attitude in the US is obviously to blame in a lot, and the GOP bears a lot of responsibility for that.

10 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 1:50:34pm

This calls for an investigation of the investigators who investigated the initial investigations.

11 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 1:50:44pm

Al Gore made the mistake of thinking that because he had retired from active politics that he could embrace the topic of global warming and put it above political considerations.

But it as still seen as a partisan thing, partly becasue it has his name attached to it.

And if one cannot attack the science, one attacks the scientists. And if that fails, one attacks science itself.

12 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 1:52:07pm

re: #10 darthstar

They’ve been sacked, as have those who sacked them.

13 freetoken  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 1:53:06pm

re: #5 srjh

With five separate, independent investigations finding that the claims were rubbish, surely it’s time to put “climategate” to bed?

Hah!

Again I say, Hah!

Let’s look at some of the comments from the net today:

From Revkin’s article:

2.
Raven
Earth
July 7th, 2010
9:03 am
Whitewash as expected.

What I find most disgusting is the blatant attempts to subvert the spirit and the letter of the FOI law were dismissed as ‘unfortunate’. That alone should have been grounds for termination of one or more of the people involved (especially the FOI officer at UEA who failed to live up to his responsibility).

I really have nothing but contempt for the scientific establishment now.

From the WSJ article:

MIKE MCATEE replied:

They obviously didn’t look at the IPCC. Its report, and proposed agenda, is so full of holes you could fly the space shuttle through it. A recent report on the IPCC from the Netherlands climate scientists points out eight fatal flaws in its program which were directly caused by conscious manipulation of the data.

Um, no MIKE, the Dutch report said just the opposite.

We’ve seen this before, of course, when it comes to evolution.

When a discovery or set of observations so challenges peoples’ world views that they can not accept the evidence all they have left to do is hide under the rock of denial.

14 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 1:53:11pm

so…will research funding take a hit?…will any new regulation, or mileage target be considered draconian and shouted down?…will the Big Three Pollution junkies go on a fossile fuel rampage, scott free?….this is a huge PR disaster

15 Four More Tears  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 1:54:27pm

OT: Best headline ever: reuters.com

16 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 1:54:48pm

re: #11 ralphieboy

Al Gore made the mistake of thinking that because he had retired from active politics that he could embrace the topic of global warming and put it above political considerations.

But it as still seen as a partisan thing, partly becasue it has his name attached to it.

And if one cannot attack the science, one attacks the scientists. And if that fails, one attacks science itself.

perception is everything…it has to be in the case of CG

17 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 1:54:54pm

re: #5 srjh

With five separate, independent investigations finding that the claims were rubbish, surely it’s time to put “climategate” to bed?

I’m hoping that the vindications will get the same coverage that the outrageous claims did, but I’m not at all confident about that. The negligence of many media sources on this has been truly appalling.

And we have conspiracy theorists claiming… conspiracy. Did anyone not see the whole thing coming, vindication, “whitewash” claims, and all?

That’s why the continued investigations are meaningless in the grand scheme of things. The initial lies got traction, media play, and lots of people were more than happy to cry “conspiracy!” over them. The exoneration of the scientists is boring. The truth, well, inconvenient (h/t Al Gore). Far better for the media to let this story die, so those who do continue to spew the lies can do so at their leisure, and when someone points to the five (or however many we end up with) investigations proving otherwise, they’ll simply say, “Well, it’s water under the bridge.” and idiot assholes will believe the lies still.

18 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 1:55:32pm

re: #15 JasonA

OT: Best headline ever: [Link: www.reuters.com…]

LOL, SRSLY?

19 Gus  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 1:56:06pm

Checkmate!

20 freetoken  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 1:56:14pm

re: #15 JasonA

Surely headlines are the domain of creative writing.

21 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 1:57:38pm

Enough with mention of Al Gore. The first serious report on the potential consequences of AGW was in 1965 and prepared by the National Academy for the Johnson Administration. This is much older and much bigger than Al Gore.

I am sick of seeing his name in every damn thread about this.

He is not a scientist.

The science he did bring was correct.

The only that matters is the science itself and it has been overwhelmingly confirmed by thousands of independent researchers, after hundreds of them have been raked over the coals only to be exonerated again and again.

So let’s really get this straight.

AGW if unchecked will lead to war, famine, plague, drought, heat waves, extreme weather events, lack of fresh water, failure of food supplies, global unrest and the loss of our coastal cities and infrastructure.

Billions will die as a result.

The fools who are blocking action are complicit in murder and the willful collapse of our civilization. They should frankly be tried for crimes against humanity and executed - which is exactly what should be done with any would be mas murderers.

22 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:00:06pm

re: #15 JasonA

OT: Best headline ever: [Link: www.reuters.com…]

Reuters is being punny.

23 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:00:23pm

re: #17 darthstar

That’s why the continued investigations are meaningless in the grand scheme of things. The initial lies got traction, media play, and lots of people were more than happy to cry “conspiracy!” over them. The exoneration of the scientists is boring. The truth, well, inconvenient (h/t Al Gore). Far better for the media to let this story die, so those who do continue to spew the lies can do so at their leisure, and when someone points to the five (or however many we end up with) investigations proving otherwise, they’ll simply say, “Well, it’s water under the bridge.” and idiot assholes will believe the lies still.

of course they will…therefore the perception needs to be framed to reach out in such a way that the average head scratcher will accept, ie national security and economic imperative…problem solved

24 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:00:26pm

re: #3 Obdicut

The damage is done, at a very, very critical time.

I do not understand the nihilism of the climate change deniers. Don’t they have children? Don’t they care about the future at all?

I can’t understand it.

No, they don’t care. They think that they will somehow be wealthy enough to survive. They think that they will be among the 1/2 to 1/5 of Americans who get the food that is left - if they allow themselves to think in those terms at all. Again, crimes against humanity is not an overstatement for the various denier think tanks, politicians and corporate powers that are strangling progress. They should be tried and hanged.

25 freetoken  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:00:46pm

From the comments of the LA Times Opinion piece rightly titled After three strikes, is the Climategate scandal out?

Considering all of the evidence that debunks AGW, especially the cooling trend over the last decade, I am very suspicious of these so-called “independent” studies. No one in government or in academia can be trusted to perform an unbiased study. There is too much grant money at stake. Penn State is covering for one of its own. I read a lot of the emails and it is clear that they were conspiring to “prove” their point and blunt all criticism. If the head of the East Anglia group didn’t destroy evidence, then who did. Raw temperature data is missing. AGW theory is based on computer models which have been tweaked to give a wanted result. When the models were fed historical data, they couldn’t even reproduce what actually happened subsequently. It’s all a ruse to take your money and give it to someone who didn’t earn it. The commies have landed in the environmentalist movement.

Posted by: Jarhead68 | July 07, 2010 at 12:09 PM


I guess we should congratulate Alex Jones et. al. Now, only conspiracies can be accepted as truth.

26 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:01:30pm

re: #23 albusteve

of course they will…therefore the perception needs to be framed to reach out in such a way that the average head scratcher will accept, ie national security and economic imperative…problem solved

“Coors Light, because the earth is getting hotter.” - beyond that, nothing will reach them.

27 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:01:51pm

Hopefully the climate scientists will now be able to get their noses back to the grindstone and continue their vital research. And maybe they will allow the system to be a bit more transparent so the public can more easily be educated.

28 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:02:11pm

re: #15 JasonA

OT: Best headline ever: [Link: www.reuters.com…]

I still think the best headline ever was the NY Post describing a KKK rally in Manhattan: SHEET HAPPENS

29 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:02:34pm

re: #27 Spare O’Lake

Hopefully the climate scientists will now be able to get their noses back to the grindstone and continue their vital research. And maybe they will allow the system to be a bit more transparent so the public can more easily be educated.

The research is out there. People like you just need to read it.

30 Gus  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:02:39pm

re: #25 freetoken

From the comments of the LA Times Opinion piece rightly titled After three strikes, is the Climategate scandal out?

I guess we should congratulate Alex Jones et. al. Now, only conspiracies can be accepted as truth.

Oh for sure. They’ve already been calling the previous investigations “white washes.” The conspiracy now has another conspiracy.

31 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:02:49pm

re: #21 LudwigVanQuixote

Meh. I’m anti-death penalty in general, so I can’t really get with you on executing anyone over this.

However, I do think that a lot of the smears of scientists have exceeded libel and slander, frequently.

I also would love for there to be a penalty for any elected or appointed official who made a statement that was scientifically untrue or an outright lie, beginning, of course, with recanting. If you can’t tell the truth or admit mistakes, I don’t see why you should keep your job.

That one will never happen.

32 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:03:01pm

re: #26 darthstar

“Coors Light, because the earth is getting hotter.” - beyond that, nothing will reach them.


I doubt that, people need to believe something…we have to try

33 Kragar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:03:13pm

re: #15 JasonA

OT: Best headline ever: [Link: www.reuters.com…]

WIN!

34 freetoken  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:03:24pm

re: #27 Spare O’Lake

And maybe they will allow the system to be a bit more transparent so the public can more easily be educated.

Not buying it.

The comments I am posting from around the web stand as evidence that the haters and deniers are willfully ignorant.

35 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:04:24pm

re: #27 Spare O’Lake

The research has been performed already. What’s needed is action. That’s what the climate change deniers are attempting to stop.

I think many of them honestly have not paid one whit of attention to the science, so convinced are they of their paranoid fantasies about socialist wealth-redistribution.

People who don’t examine the science suck.

36 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:05:49pm

So basically the “gate” in Climate-gate is the stealing of the private emails, and nothing in the emails stolen. Color me not shocked.

37 Gus  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:05:49pm

re: #34 freetoken

Not buying it.

The comments I am posting from around the web stand as evidence that the haters and deniers are willfully ignorant.

Come on. Don’t you know people will learn more by reading the scientists private emails? Heck they should be reading their snail mail from their mailboxes while we’re at it — same thing.

//

38 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:05:50pm

re: #31 Obdicut

Meh. I’m anti-death penalty in general, so I can’t really get with you on executing anyone over this.

However, I do think that a lot of the smears of scientists have exceeded libel and slander, frequently.

I also would love for there to be a penalty for any elected or appointed official who made a statement that was scientifically untrue or an outright lie, beginning, of course, with recanting. If you can’t tell the truth or admit mistakes, I don’t see why you should keep your job.

That one will never happen.

I don’t mean this as a capital punishment debate.

However, most people would say that those who commit mass murder for profit are subject to it.

These people are actively working to kill us and our posterity, destroy America and destroy our civilization.

That is the fact. By preventing any change of course, that is what they are doing. Billions of lives including yours and your children’s are in the balance.

What is the penalty for working to kill them?

39 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:06:35pm

re: #35 Obdicut

The research has been performed already. What’s needed is action. That’s what the climate change deniers are attempting to stop.

I think many of them honestly have not paid one whit of attention to the science, so convinced are they of their paranoid fantasies about socialist wealth-redistribution.

People who don’t examine the science suck.

give me a break….there just may be millions on the fence, those are the ones to appeal to…just because they have not read the science doesn’t mean they are hard core deniers

40 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:07:48pm

re: #34 freetoken

Not buying it.

The comments I am posting from around the web stand as evidence that the haters and deniers are willfully ignorant.

Of course they are. The science has been soundly settled to the extent that we need to take serious actions to eliminate fossil fuel usage for over a decade.

We certainly need more research - onto things like how bad and how fast, but we don’t need any more research to determine that bad means billions dead and fast means this century.

41 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:08:31pm

re: #39 albusteve

give me a break…there just may be millions on the fence, those are the ones to appeal to…just because they have not read the science doesn’t mean they are hard core deniers

A lot of Americans flatly deny evolution.
Why should I believe this’ll be any different?

42 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:08:53pm

re: #32 albusteve

I doubt that, people need to believe something…we have to try

Maybe if you could talk Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, and Rush Limbaugh into agreeing publicly that climate change is real you might reach a few of the deniers.

43 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:09:27pm

re: #41 Varek Raith

A lot of Americans flatly deny evolution.
Why should I believe this’ll be any different?

A lot of those Americans are good arguments against evolution.

44 Gus  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:09:30pm

Step 1: convince millions that creationism is not science but fiction.

Step 2: convince millions that AGW exists.

45 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:10:55pm

re: #41 Varek Raith

A lot of Americans flatly deny evolution.
Why should I believe this’ll be any different?

then further education is a waste of time…if there are only two kinds of people, deniers and believers, then it is simply a matter of brute force numbers…might as well go straight to the legislation and find out then who’s who

46 Nimed  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:11:02pm

re: #43 darthstar

A lot of those Americans are good arguments against evolution.

I disagree — they are much better arguments against intelligent design.

47 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:11:24pm

re: #46 Nimed

I disagree — they are much better arguments against intelligent design.

I stand corrected.

48 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:12:10pm

re: #42 darthstar

Maybe if you could talk Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, and Rush Limbaugh into agreeing publicly that climate change is real you might reach a few of the deniers.

I thought the deniers have been conceded?….seems to be two sides to the denier ed thing?

49 efuseakay  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:12:57pm

If it were a cold snap hitting the East coast right now, we’d all be hearing about “CLIMATEGATE!!!! YEARGH!!!!”…

50 freetoken  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:13:38pm

re: #44 Gus 802

You have of course hit on the analogy.

After 150 years (more really) of evidence compiled for evolution by (among other things) natural selection, still only 1/4th of this nation accepts that. Another 1/4th outright rejects anything but YEC, and the remaining half are somewhere between “I don’t know” and “God did it over time”.

In this regards I guess AGW is doing better than Evolution.

The science-haters hate science because it tells them things about themselves they don’t want to hear.

That is why we label them “deniers”.

51 efuseakay  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:13:41pm

re: #42 darthstar

Maybe if you could talk Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, and Rush Limbaugh into agreeing publicly that climate change is real you might reach a few of the deniers.

Who honestly cares about either of those three morons, except the morons who blindly follow them? Not I.

52 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:14:00pm

re: #39 albusteve

give me a break…there just may be millions on the fence, those are the ones to appeal to…just because they have not read the science doesn’t mean they are hard core deniers

The ones who don’t read the science because they think scientists are ‘elitist’ and attack them for being part of the ‘ivory tower’ aren’t really able to be appealed to; the GOP has already done a very thorough job of discrediting scientists in general in the minds of many.

It’s probably the most calamitous action they’ve taken, and it began long before their current run of insanity.

53 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:14:36pm

re: #29 LudwigVanQuixote

1. I believe that climate change is real and your foul smears to the contrary are disingenuous.
2. Your cheap emotional rants about executing climate deniers make you look like a complete fool.
3. Why don’t you get a job already and apply your scientific knowledge to the problem?

54 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:14:56pm

re: #51 efuseakay

Who honestly cares about either of those three morons, except the morons who blindly follow them? Not I.

Nice handle, by the way…

55 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:15:00pm

I say reject the deniers, convince the skeptics and move forward as a matter of economics and national security….otherwise this gig will be mired in the mud forever….bull our way past the deniers, something like that

56 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:15:10pm

Just because it’s hot doesn’t mean human caused climate change is the cause….Ooo look a snowflake, SEE, there’s no climate change!!!
/ (like I have to)

57 Kragar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:15:27pm

re: #44 Gus 802

Step 1: convince millions that creationism is not science but fiction.

Step 2: convince millions that AGW exists.

Perhaps if we built an Ark and promised them it would rapture them magically to see the big man in the sky, we could get them out of the way for a month or two.

59 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:15:49pm

re: #53 Spare O’Lake

How many times does Charles have to post that he’s verified that Ludwig is a working scientific professional who’s published papers?

Jesus, get a grip.

60 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:15:56pm

re: #34 freetoken

Not buying it.

The comments I am posting from around the web stand as evidence that the haters and deniers are willfully ignorant.

Take a look at the report - I didn’t make up the bit about lack of transparency.

61 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:16:04pm

re: #21 LudwigVanQuixote

I really value your AGW contributions. I think I would like them about twice as much if you cut the last sentence from each.

62 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:16:16pm

re: #58 JasonA

Yeah, I’ve always pictured Jesus packin’ heat. Gah!

63 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:16:44pm

re: #56 Irenicum

Just because it’s hot doesn’t mean human caused climate change is the cause…Ooo look a snowflake, SEE, there’s no climate change!!!
/ (like I have to)

Breaking: Winter cold, Summer hot. Unless AGW is mentioned in Revelations, the deniers will continue to deny.

64 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:17:30pm

re: #53 Spare O’Lake

1. I believe that climate change is real and your foul smears to the contrary are disingenuous.
2. Your cheap emotional rants about executing climate deniers make you look like a complete fool.
3. Why don’t you get a job already and apply your scientific knowledge to the problem?

Lol you really hate him, don’t you?

funny to watch :D

65 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:17:40pm

re: #58 JasonA

Bobby Jindal Signs ‘Guns-In-Church’ Bill Into Law

Image: s-JESUS-HAS-A-GUN-large.jpg

Jesus got a nose job? He looks like Michael Jackson…OMFG! Michael Jackson was the second coming and we all missed it!

66 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:17:42pm

re: #52 Obdicut

The ones who don’t read the science because they think scientists are ‘elitist’ and attack them for being part of the ‘ivory tower’ aren’t really able to be appealed to; the GOP has already done a very thorough job of discrediting scientists in general in the minds of many.

It’s probably the most calamitous action they’ve taken, and it began long before their current run of insanity.

true enough, those are not the people I’m referring to…I refuse to believe it’s us verses them….there is a middle ground to ‘harvest’ and if there is, they count big time, enough to turn this mess around….and I’m a born pessie

67 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:18:28pm

Just to repeat, look at all of these papers

Two meter sea level rises or more if accelerations of melts continue at this rate. Look at the damn papers if you doubt me.

littlegreenfootballs.com

Famine, plague drought etc…

littlegreenfootballs.com

Visualizations from Princeton:

gfdl.noaa.gov

Forecast for America in specific: (this multi agency government report is written on a level that even a congress critter can understand)

littlegreenfootballs.com

Billions die. Get that straight. Israel falls before America. Get that straight if you care for Israel. America falls. Get that straight if you love America.

The people who are blocking change that could prevent this fate are working to insure this fate. That is a crime against humanity.

68 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:18:54pm

re: #35 Obdicut

See my #53, please. I have never been a denier and I have read plenty. Cheap smears designed to silence other criticisms notwithstanding.

69 Kragar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:19:44pm

re: #58 JasonA

Bobby Jindal Signs ‘Guns-In-Church’ Bill Into Law

Image: s-JESUS-HAS-A-GUN-large.jpg

Dont tell anyone, but most actual religious historians think Big J probably looked more like this:

Image: jesusface.jpg

70 freetoken  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:19:55pm

re: #60 Spare O’Lake

Take a look at the report - I didn’t make up the bit about lack of transparency.

Take a look at my comment again - I said nothing about transparency of the supposed lack of it.

I am stating the nature of human denial, which is so evident around this issue.

71 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:19:56pm

re: #68 Spare O’Lake

See my #53, please. I have never been a denier and I have read plenty. Cheap smears designed to silence other criticisms notwithstanding.

You’re not a denier, you just viciously attack the guy with the most expertise on these matters each day, every day, claiming he’s not a scientist when the guy who runs the very blog you’re granted permission to post on has verified his bonafides

72 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:20:08pm

re: #63 darthstar

Sadly you’re right. (by the way, it’s not Revelations, there is no such book. It’s Revelation or the Apocalypse. I get sick of seeing that elementary mistake made over and over again) ((I’m not sniping at you Darthstar, it just bugs me))

73 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:20:17pm

re: #67 LudwigVanQuixote

Just to repeat, look at all of these papers

Two meter sea level rises or more if accelerations of melts continue at this rate. Look at the damn papers if you doubt me.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Famine, plague drought etc…

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Visualizations from Princeton:

[Link: www.gfdl.noaa.gov…]

Forecast for America in specific: (this multi agency government report is written on a level that even a congress critter can understand)

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Billions die. Get that straight. Israel falls before America. Get that straight if you care for Israel. America falls. Get that straight if you love America.

The people who are blocking change that could prevent this fate are working to insure this fate. That is a crime against humanity.


tar the tree huggers!
feather ‘em too!

74 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:21:16pm

re: #69 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Dont tell anyone, but most actual religious historians think Big J probably looked more like this:

Image: jesusface.jpg

Wow…he looks like Mandy (or her avatar, anyway)

75 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:21:22pm

re: #71 WindUpBird

You’re not a denier, you just viciously attack the guy with the most expertise on these matters each day, every day, claiming he’s not a scientist when the guy who runs the very blog you’re granted permission to post on has verified his bonafides

DOG PILE!
every time
vicious attacks?…where, show some proof

76 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:21:36pm

re: #68 Spare O’Lake

What cheap smear are you referring to, Spare?

77 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:21:49pm

re: #72 Irenicum

Sadly you’re right. (by the way, it’s not Revelations, there is no such book. It’s Revelation or the Apocalypse. I get sick of seeing that elementary mistake made over and over again) ((I’m not sniping at you Darthstar, it just bugs me))

No worries.

78 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:21:52pm

re: #59 Obdicut

How many times does Charles have to post that he’s verified that Ludwig is a working scientific professional who’s published papers?

Jesus, get a grip.

What the fuck are you talking about, creep? I know he’s a scientist. I asked him to get a job working on applied solutions to the AGW problem.

79 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:22:17pm

re: #53 Spare O’Lake

1. I believe that climate change is real and your foul smears to the contrary are disingenuous.

Spare this is not about you.


2. Your cheap emotional rants about executing climate deniers make you look like a complete fool.

Only because you are ignorant of the science. Everything I have claimed is backed up in those links. Read them just once, so that you know what you are talking about. Otherwise, please spare us your ignorance. You have no clue and you should really try getting one.

3. Why don’t you get a job already and apply your scientific knowledge to the problem?

I have a job applied to this problem already.

Read the papers. There are no smears. There is only your profound ignorance and kneejerk flailing from teh severity of the truth. Your own ego and brainwashing prevents you from even looking at the documents and data that prove the case.

80 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:22:19pm

re: #75 albusteve

Right here, Steve:

2. Your cheap emotional rants about executing climate deniers make you look like a complete fool.
3. Why don’t you get a job already and apply your scientific knowledge to the problem?

81 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:22:30pm

re: #69 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Thanks for posting that. You’re absolutely right. He was an average looking Palestinian Jew. Our art and mythology is so Euro-centric that it has totally lost its original Middle Eastern roots.

82 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:22:41pm

re: #76 Obdicut

What cheap smear are you referring to, Spare?

ah…#29

83 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:22:50pm

FYI - petty sniping begets time-outs. Might want to mellow before dad gets back.

84 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:22:57pm

re: #78 Spare O’Lake

Calm down, Spare, and stop trying to make this personal.

85 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:23:13pm

re: #80 Obdicut

Right here, Steve:

sounds true to me

86 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:23:25pm

re: #61 Decatur Deb

I really value your AGW contributions. I think I would like them about twice as much if you cut the last sentence from each.

About the crimes against humanity? Well what would you call it then? Seriously?

87 Jack Burton  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:23:31pm

re: #13 freetoken

When a discovery or set of observations so challenges peoples’ world views that they can not accept the evidence all they have left to do is hide under the rock of denial.

All most people have heard is the initial accusations. All of these after the fact investigations showing it to be bogus are getting little to no press. I think a lot of people who don’t spend all day reading blogs got punk’d by this and continue to think “AGW is dead”. The damage is done. Good luck getting anything positive done in this environment unless someone starts putting TV ads during prime time as to why its bogus.

88 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:24:20pm

re: #71 WindUpBird

You’re not a denier, you just viciously attack the guy with the most expertise on these matters each day, every day, claiming he’s not a scientist when the guy who runs the very blog you’re granted permission to post on has verified his bonafides

LIAR. I have never once denied LVQ is a scientist since Charles vouched for him. Never.
What I criticize is what I consider to be unscientific conduct.

89 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:24:55pm

so how is the problem of perception solved…anybody else?…
seemed like a legit question

90 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:25:04pm

What is it about this topic that repeatedly causes such flaming? It really does blow my mind.

91 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:25:17pm

re: #85 albusteve

Oh boy. Another AGW thread turns into you, and Spare, and whoever else feels like it, bashing on Ludwig, who has always been the person bringing the most accurate science and demonstrating the fallacy of deniers most thoroughly.

Why not just grow the fuck up and cut it out? Baiting Ludwig is obvious, stupid, and detracts from the thread and the blog.

You and Spare can’t possibly debate Ludwig on the science, at all, so you prefer to attempt to bait him into an emotional exchange. Every damn time.

It’s transparent, idiotic, and I, for one, am thoroughly sick to the teeth of it.

92 Gus  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:25:21pm

Not again. Take a deep breath. After what happened last night you might be looking at a time out. Chill.

93 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:25:26pm

re: #70 freetoken

Take a look at my comment again - I said nothing about transparency of the supposed lack of it.

I am stating the nature of human denial, which is so evident around this issue.

Spare does not read evidence that might disrupt his thinking and preset conclusions. This has been repeatedly established.

94 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:25:44pm

re: #86 LudwigVanQuixote

About the crimes against humanity? Well what would you call it then? Seriously?

Common human greed and ignorance, possibly correctable. We’re just going to have to sweet-talk the next generation into action.

95 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:26:00pm

re: #88 Spare O’Lake

LIAR. I have never once denied LVQ is a scientist since Charles vouched for him. Never.
What I criticize is what I consider to be unscientific conduct.

What, bringing you paper after paper that supports my claims?

Read the papers or shut up already you git.

96 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:26:09pm

re: #67 LudwigVanQuixote

I have noted this in the past here..
The only Scientists in the world that are attacked are Climate Scientist..
Nobody bitches at cocktail parties about how micro-Biologists are evil and how they are trying to pull the wool over our ever watching eyes..
Woe be to you if you are a meteorologist or a climate Scientist..Cause there is a political class coming after your ass…Facts don’t matter.. I have never seen Scientists attacked like this in my lifetime…

97 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:26:36pm

re: #94 Decatur Deb

Common human greed and ignorance, possibly correctable. We’re just going to have to sweet-talk the next generation into action.

That is too late. We start acting seriously this decade or all is lost.

98 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:26:40pm

re: #90 Irenicum

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the person attacked over and over by so many is the most visible scientist on the board.

God, the anti-intellectualism in this country is going to ruin us.

99 teleskiguy  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:26:44pm

I posted a page about my favorite band Umphrey’s McGee, and they have a song that I think is appropriate for the discussion. Here are the lyrics:

Believe The Lie
words and music by Umphrey’s McGee

Let this become memory
The worst is yet to come
And all these points we’ve argued
We still agree on some
And when all faith is lost
Is it alright to laugh

You can lead with all new lines
If you believe in what you say
And life can be just as you make it

Believe the lie and it will all come true

If you believe in every lie
You’re never free to walk away
You should be free to go today

Believe the lie and it will all come true

So let’s pretend you’re listening
And all the rules get stretched
Whos the first to turn their back
Revealing not their best
And finally right reaction
It’s like floating on a raft

100 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:26:45pm

re: #91 Obdicut

Oh boy. Another AGW thread turns into you, and Spare, and whoever else feels like it, bashing on Ludwig, who has always been the person bringing the most accurate science and demonstrating the fallacy of deniers most thoroughly.

Why not just grow the fuck up and cut it out? Baiting Ludwig is obvious, stupid, and detracts from the thread and the blog.

You and Spare can’t possibly debate Ludwig on the science, at all, so you prefer to attempt to bait him into an emotional exchange. Every damn time.

It’s transparent, idiotic, and I, for one, am thoroughly sick to the teeth of it.


I’m not baiting anybody…got any potential solutions?

101 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:26:56pm

Right wing blogs to issue corrections any minute now…..
/

102 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:26:59pm

re: #79 LudwigVanQuixote

Wrong. The science is not the problem. Your often unscientific, aggressive, vicious and over-zealous conduct is what rankles me.

103 Kragar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:27:30pm

re: #81 Irenicum

Thanks for posting that. You’re absolutely right. He was an average looking Palestinian Jew. Our art and mythology is so Euro-centric that it has totally lost its original Middle Eastern roots.

I blame Leonardo and the rest of the Ninja Turtles for their art during the Renaissance.

104 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:27:32pm

re: #93 LudwigVanQuixote

Spare does not read evidence that might disrupt his thinking and preset conclusions. This has been repeatedly established.

fine…let’s move in eh?

105 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:27:43pm

re: #96 HoosierHoops

Very good point Hoops. Though I do think evolutionary scientists get an indecent amount of grief too. But nothing like climate scientists.

106 Gus  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:27:53pm

re: #101 Killgore Trout

Right wing blogs to issue corrections any minute now…
/

Clearly this investigation was conducted by Communist sodomites!

/

107 freetoken  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:28:07pm

re: #87 ArchangelMichael

I do not disagree with you and indeed the poisoning of the well you describe has been, I conclude, one of the goals of the concerted effort behind not only the “climategate” brouhaha but much of the AGW denial efforts.

In other words, this is a variant of TEACH THE CONTROVERSY.

The (rather evil IMO) idea is to cause so much noise that the casual onlooker (which describes most people) will not be able to quickly ascertain what is the truth.

108 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:28:16pm

re: #99 teleskiguy

I love UM…I’ve seen them several times. Great band, great stage presence, and two drummers…you can’t go wrong with two drummers.

109 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:28:26pm

re: #106 Gus 802

Clearly this investigation was conducted by Communist sodomites!

/

heh…
sodomites!
2 pts

110 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:28:38pm

re: #104 albusteve

Wow, you too are getting serious, getting ready to “move in” and all.
///

111 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:29:04pm

re: #79 LudwigVanQuixote

Come on, LVQ — it’s not helpful to talk about trying and executing climate change deniers. You’re not advocating violence, exactly, because you said they should be tried first. But you have to know this is never going to happen, so what’s the point of posting it except to show that you feel strongly about the issue (which we already know), or to get people wound up?

You can make your points a lot more effectively without the rhetorical excess. And I don’t really like dealing with the fallout. So please knock it off.

112 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:29:57pm

re: #110 Irenicum

Wow, you too are getting serious, getting ready to “move in” and all.
///

it’s hot and I’m lonely

113 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:30:05pm

re: #99 teleskiguy

Here’s a decent version of Believe the Lie

114 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:30:21pm

re: #97 LudwigVanQuixote

That is too late. We start acting seriously this decade or all is lost.

That’s probably true, if “all” means the world as we want it to be. The political mechanisms to turn this around quickly do not exist. I swear I’m thinking more about Brother Leibowitz and fortified university city-states.

115 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:30:26pm

re: #102 Spare O’Lake

Wrong. The science is not the problem. Your often unscientific, aggressive, vicious and over-zealous conduct is what rankles me.

Then if you don’t have a problem with the science you must support the conclusions I have claimed. Billions die, America falls, Israel falls, most of Europe falls, Africa and Latin America and most of Asia fall.

116 studentpatriot  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:31:32pm

re: #88 Spare O’Lake

I’d upding you but I can’t (not enough posts maybe?)

117 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:31:46pm

re: #107 freetoken

I do not disagree with you and indeed the poisoning of the well you describe has been, I conclude, one of the goals of the concerted effort behind not only the “climategate” brouhaha but much of the AGW denial efforts.

In other words, this is a variant of TEACH THE CONTROVERSY.

The (rather evil IMO) idea is to cause so much noise that the casual onlooker (which describes most people) will not be able to quickly ascertain what is the truth.

now that the problem has been mostly hashed out, how do we deal with it?….reducing CO2 is infinitely more complicated now it seems to me, but I enjoy problem solving…can’t just give up

118 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:31:51pm

re: #115 LudwigVanQuixote

Then if you don’t have a problem with the science you must support the conclusions I have claimed. Billions die, America falls, Israel falls, most of Europe falls, Africa and Latin America and most of Asia fall.

I rest my case.
BBL.

119 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:31:53pm

re: #114 Decatur Deb

It’s definitely been making me think long and hard about the best way to raise the kid that I still plan on having.

I won’t be able to promise her/him the future I thought I would be able to ten years ago.

120 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:32:22pm

re: #21 LudwigVanQuixote

The fools who are blocking action are complicit in murder and the willful collapse of our civilization. They should frankly be tried for crimes against humanity and executed - which is exactly what should be done with any would be mas murderers.

You can’t execute “would be mass murderers.”

Rest of comment preempted.

121 teleskiguy  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:33:36pm

re: #108 darthstar

I love UM…I’ve seen them several times. Great band, great stage presence, and two drummers…you can’t go wrong with two drummers.

I saw the boys this last weekend. They headlined Red Rocks for the first time in their career. Then they played a club the next night in the city. Needless to say, my face melted off, I was picking up cheeks and noses all over the dance floor after the shows. :)

122 Nene1  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:33:42pm
The Russell panel

Who they ? It was reported on BBC News that the investigation was carried out by the University of East Anglia themselves … Surely the last people who should be commisioned to investigate claims of improper data reporting by its’ own Climate Departmwnt ?

It’ll be ‘as you were’ on the claims themselves, then.

123 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:33:48pm

Well, I’ve been to enough barroom fights this week already. I’m gonna go outside and play.

124 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:34:11pm

re: #114 Decatur Deb

That’s probably true, if “all” means the world as we want it to be. The political mechanisms to turn this around quickly do not exist. I swear I’m thinking more about Brother Leibowitz and fortified university city-states.

I tend to agree with you…since most of what’s at stake, at least initially will be third world citizens that have no clue, or first world countries that have too much at stake to slow down their economies

125 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:34:41pm

re: #111 Charles

Come on, LVQ — it’s not helpful to talk about trying and executing climate change deniers. You’re not advocating violence, exactly, because you said they should be tried first. But you have to know this is never going to happen, so what’s the point of posting it except to show that you feel strongly about the issue (which we already know), or to get people wound up?

You can make your points a lot more effectively without the rhetorical excess. And I don’t really like dealing with the fallout. So please knock it off.

Actually, I am making a very serious point. These people are actively working to kill future generations for their own greed. Yes I know that they will never face justice in this world.

However, I am completely serious when I say that they are attempting mass murder whether they or you care to admit it or not.

It is no different than setting off a bomb in a crowd - except that this will kill many more people. If you set a bomb up, it obeys certain physical laws and does what it does following cause and effect of trigger mechanisms and explosives.

IF you insure that we continue to burn fossil fuels at the rates we are burning them, cause and effect happens. The science is the same in principle, in that you have people knowingly doing things that will kill others for their own selfish gain. The moral difference is in magnitude.

Given this, please tell me how they are not committing crimes against humanity?

126 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:34:55pm

re: #115 LudwigVanQuixote

Then if you don’t have a problem with the science you must support the conclusions I have claimed. Billions die, America falls, Israel falls, most of Europe falls, Africa and Latin America and most of Asia fall.

he does, and has said so many times…quit denying that factoid and move on

127 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:35:13pm

re: #119 Obdicut

It’s definitely been making me think long and hard about the best way to raise the kid that I still plan on having.

I won’t be able to promise her/him the future I thought I would be able to ten years ago.

That promise would have been an illusion in the best of cases. People don’t have children for rational reasons. Have him anyway, and teach the classics—and flint knapping.

128 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:35:13pm

re: #121 teleskiguy

I love it when faces melt…though I don’t allow myself that leisure much anymore.

129 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:35:20pm

re: #105 Irenicum

Very good point Hoops. Though I do think evolutionary scientists get an indecent amount of grief too. But nothing like climate scientists.

Good point..I forgot the Scopes trial and how hated they were by the Religious America…
I never dealt with that..I went to Catholic School and the Nuns would flunk you for the Creationist dogma..It was Science and only Science or you flunk..
We believed God created the Universe but you damn well be able to prove the Gas laws on paper…

130 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:36:17pm

re: #126 albusteve

he does, and has said so many times…quit denying that factoid and move on

delete this post…it’s flawed
or at least discount it
move on!

131 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:36:30pm

re: #126 albusteve

he does, and has said so many times…quit denying that factoid and move on

Then if that is the case he is a denier, because that is what the science says.

132 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:36:33pm

re: #129 HoosierHoops

Nice. If I hadn’t gone to Public in NYC and then largely self taught, I would’ve been happy to be Catholic educated.

133 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:36:42pm

re: #127 Decatur Deb

I am now very happy that I learned tracking in my youth, and that the environment I learned to survive in was the dry, buzzing hills of Northern California.

I also am hoping to land my dream job, which is at a company that promotes sustainable, low-tech designs.

134 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:38:21pm

re: #115 LudwigVanQuixote

Then if you don’t have a problem with the science you must support the conclusions I have claimed. Billions die, America falls, Israel falls, most of Europe falls, Africa and Latin America and most of Asia fall.

one can support the science, and be wary of the speculative results

135 zora  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:38:53pm

re: #116 studentpatriot

try refreshing your page.

136 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:39:00pm

re: #134 albusteve

one can support the science, and be wary of the speculative results

No, not really. The results are predictions made by the science.

137 Jack Burton  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:40:36pm

re: #136 Obdicut

No, not really. The results are predictions made by the science.

Some of these predictions made would require Hari Seldon to have made them. People are unpredictable.

138 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:40:49pm

re: #132 Irenicum

Nice. If I hadn’t gone to Public in NYC and then largely self taught, I would’ve been happy to be Catholic educated.

I was taught by nuns in Catholic school in the 70s. We learned about ‘the creation’, but we also learned about evolution. As I recall, there wasn’t too much of a conflict back then…but those were different political times.

139 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:40:53pm

Student patriot you are one of those fun folks who likes to down ding the peer reviewed papers I post.

Front and center, what is your complaint about the science? On what basis do you challenge it?

140 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:41:05pm

re: #133 Obdicut

I am now very happy that I learned tracking in my youth, and that the environment I learned to survive in was the dry, buzzing hills of Northern California.

I also am hoping to land my dream job, which is at a company that promotes sustainable, low-tech designs.

Seen these guys?—there’s a lot out there.

afrigadget.com

141 studentpatriot  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:41:50pm

re: #136 Obdicut

No, not really. The results are predictions made by the science.

You mean predictions made by computer models.

142 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:42:17pm

re: #137 ArchangelMichael

Some of these predictions made would require Hari Seldon to have made them. People are unpredictable.

That’s why the prediction normally includes, as Ludwig did “If AGW is left unchecked”.

People are unpredictable only to a certain degree. We know that starving hordes of refugees are not simply going to sit quietly and accept their fate. We know that areas hard hit by poverty and lack of food become more unstable.

143 teleskiguy  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:42:35pm

I love it how Charles is the only one who goes out of his way to debunk this “ClimateGate” bullshit. Unfortunately, it’s like screaming at a wall when it comes to convincing some of these right-wing assholes.

That reminds me! Here’s some punk rock!
Minor Threat - Screaming At A Wall

144 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:42:39pm

re: #132 Irenicum

Nice. If I hadn’t gone to Public in NYC and then largely self taught, I would’ve been happy to be Catholic educated.

Hi you!
Honest to God..I hated Catholic School so bad that Before High School I got down on my knees and begged my Dad with tears in my eyes ( they were fake) To go to public High and play ball.. I begged him.. My Dad makes Mel Gibson look like a back slider.. To say he is a hard core Catholic is an understatement to say the lest..
He let me transfer to Public School…Good old pops…That was some serious begging

145 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:43:05pm

re: #131 LudwigVanQuixote

Then if that is the case he is a denier, because that is what the science says.

bad post…I have no idea what he thinks the results to be, but not knowing the future does not make one denier

146 studentpatriot  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:43:24pm

I think your style detracts from your message, hence the down dings. You are not the face of AGW science, so I am not dinging down the science, just your preposterous rants.

147 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:43:57pm

re: #111 Charles

Come on, LVQ — it’s not helpful to talk about trying and executing climate change deniers. You’re not advocating violence, exactly, because you said they should be tried first. But you have to know this is never going to happen, so what’s the point of posting it except to show that you feel strongly about the issue (which we already know), or to get people wound up?

You can make your points a lot more effectively without the rhetorical excess. And I don’t really like dealing with the fallout. So please knock it off.

Also, to be clear, I am talking about the leadership that is blocking this, the organized corporate powers, the propagandists and the politicians.

The fools in the mass public who are brainwashed are brainwashed. It is almost not their fault because they never had chance. They believed the lies of those they trusted.

The ones who did the lying though and used their influence to prevent saving of lives are another matter.

148 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:44:12pm

re: #141 studentpatriot

You mean predictions made by computer models.

That comment makes very little, if any, sense. Can you explain?

The computer models are created by scientists, and they have been shown to be highly accurate, both in past-prediction and future prediction.

149 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:44:38pm

re: #141 studentpatriot

You mean predictions made by computer models.

Which have what wrong with them exactly? Be specific. This is a technical topic.

150 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:44:51pm

re: #140 Decatur Deb

Thanks! Cool stuff.

151 freetoken  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:45:12pm

re: #117 albusteve

now that the problem has been mostly hashed out, how do we deal with it?…reducing CO2 is infinitely more complicated now it seems to me, but I enjoy problem solving…can’t just give up

This issue is one of the most difficult to solve, which our modern society must undertake in order to ensure future generations with quality living standards. If we fail then future generations will be saddled with burdens of agricultural failure that will be deadly.

Having said that, I do not view the AGW apart from the rest of the environmental and social issues of which we must tackle. I’ve mentioned here before about the oceans, food supplies, loss of forests, etc.

It’s all part of the same package - living on one planet together, hopefully peaceable and rewardingly.

The CO2 problem (and again that is just one of many issues we must tackle) is tightly related to energy. We simply must get off of fossil fuels. The only way to do that and live a modern life, compared to an agricultural lifestyle of 2 centuries ago, is by exploiting every possible non-CO2 producing energy source we can.

I can at most hope for only partial success. We will continue to modify our atmospheres and oceans and land covers - will will change our planet. We (and any other surviving species) will have to adapt. Those who don’t adapt will die off.

I will be dead before this century is out, so my concern is more theoretical than practical. Yet I know my parents made sacrifices for me, and their parents for them, and so on back in time.

As such, I feel at least a tiny bit of responsibility to at least make an effort to see that those who come after me likewise have a chance at a decent life.

152 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:45:22pm

re: #146 studentpatriot

I think your style detracts from your message, hence the down dings. You are not the face of AGW science, so I am not dinging down the science, just your preposterous rants.

So you think that AGW is happening but it won’t lead to the events that LVQ argues it will?

153 teleskiguy  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:45:27pm

studentpatriot statistics:
-71 Karma
66 comments posted
Registered since Nov. 2006

In-teh-re-sting …

154 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:45:35pm

re: #148 Obdicut

That comment makes very little, if any, sense. Can you explain?

The computer models are created by scientists, and they have been shown to be highly accurate, both in past-prediction and future prediction.

Actually, they are consistently too conservative compared to the real world changes we are observing. The worst case outcomes are the most likely as far as the data is concerned.

155 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:46:06pm

re: #125 LudwigVanQuixote

Without getting into the larger issues, I’m trying to make a narrow, specific point — that you’re going overboard with the rhetoric in a way that makes it too easy for people to dismiss you as a hothead. (This isn’t the first time I’ve made this point to you, either.)

If you want to be more effective in communicating the dire nature of climate change (and I agree that on the current path we’re going to have disastrous problems down the road), it would work a lot better to consciously pull your rhetoric back from the brink a little.

156 studentpatriot  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:46:07pm

re: #148 Obdicut

I just don’t think you can personify “science” and say that it predicted something. Incorrect use of the term.

157 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:46:56pm

re: #154 LudwigVanQuixote

Well, I’d still say they’re highly accurate; conservatively accurate.

The science is simultaneously fascinating and horrifying. In many ways, it reminds me of cancer; a runaway system.

158 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:47:37pm

re: #156 studentpatriot

I just don’t think you can personify “science” and say that it predicted something. Incorrect use of the term.

Now you’re getting literal. I think what people are saying is that scientists use science to predict. It’s quite simple, really. Technical, yes, but simple.

159 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:47:45pm

re: #146 studentpatriot

I think your style detracts from your message, hence the down dings. You are not the face of AGW science, so I am not dinging down the science, just your preposterous rants.

Right you are a concern troll like Spare and Steve, so I ask you, what about the predictions that I have made is not supported by the science? This too is a technical question, please be specific.

In light of the data and mathematics already presented, please make your case. It really doesn’t matter how you feel. We don’t deal with the emotions of bloggers in physics. We deal with analysis and data. So make your case.

160 Nimed  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:48:13pm

re: #141 studentpatriot

You mean predictions made by computer models.

Oh this shit again.

Do you know what a model is? What’s relevant is the phenomenon you are modeling and the characteristics of the particular model, not the fact that it “runs” on a computer or a piece of paper.

It’s really sad that most people don’t know enough to appreciate the full stupidity of the “computer model” argument.

161 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:48:40pm

re: #9 Obdicut

Quite a few people here didn’t see it coming; Walter claimed that he was going to demonstrate errors produced by the CRU code, but (obviously) completely failed to do so. Many others attacked CRU and other scientists in various ways for a long period of time.

Unfortunately, even otherwise intelligent people can easily be sucked into climate change denial. I’m not sure why.

For the general public, our terrible anti-science attitude in the US is obviously to blame in a lot, and the GOP bears a lot of responsibility for that.

So, I’m not intelligent.

162 brownbagj  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:48:55pm

Computer models are the debil.

/

163 studentpatriot  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:48:56pm

re: #159 LudwigVanQuixote

No case to make, just agreeing with Charles that the foam is detracting from your message. Optics.

164 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:49:17pm

re: #161 Walter L. Newton

So, I’m not intelligent.

Nobody argued that you were, Walter.
//

165 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:50:22pm

re: #151 freetoken

how do we reduce fossil fuel consumption if half (?) the citizens of the world either don’ believe the science or don’t care?…what’s the point of the entire exercise if we don’t move forward and how can we do that post-Climategate?….nobody has offered any solutions here except me…there must be other ideas

166 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:50:26pm

re: #163 studentpatriot

No case to make, just agreeing with Charles that the foam is detracting from your message. Optics.

Hey somebody has to keep tilting at the windmill of the average American’s thought process to try and drive home the lance of how dangerous AGW is….


Though I think I might be over stretching the metephore a bit…

167 brownbagj  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:50:45pm

re: #163 studentpatriot

No case to make, just agreeing with Charles that the foam is detracting from your message. Optics.

So then, back to the computer model issue you brought up…

What is wrong with using computer models. Would you feel better if they were done by hand?

168 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:50:52pm

re: #156 studentpatriot

I just don’t think you can personify “science” and say that it predicted something. Incorrect use of the term.

I didn’t personify it.

You don’t seem to have any desire to make an actual argument here.

169 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:51:39pm

re: #153 teleskiguy

studentpatriot statistics:
-71 Karma
66 comments posted
Registered since Nov. 2006

In-teh-re-sting …

why?

170 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:52:42pm

re: #155 Charles

Without getting into the larger issues, I’m trying to make a narrow, specific point — that you’re going overboard with the rhetoric in a way that makes it too easy for people to dismiss you as a hothead. (This isn’t the first time I’ve made this point to you, either.)

If you want to be more effective in communicating the dire nature of climate change (and I agree that on the current path we’re going to have disastrous problems down the road), it would work a lot better to consciously pull your rhetoric back from the brink a little.

I hear your point. I agree that I am saying things that people do not want to hear and that it is perhaps not the most politic way of communicating. I will tone it down in terms of calling for trials against the leadership that is blocking this, the organized corporate powers, the propagandists and the politicians.

However, The prediction of billions dead is not hyperbole. The prediction of war, famine, plague, coastal flooding of 1.5 -20 m, loss of crops and fresh water with billions of hungry, disease ridden refugees by centuries end is not hyperbole. That is what the science says. That is also what the deniers are helping to insure.

171 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:52:44pm

re: #164 darthstar

Nobody argued that you were, Walter.
//

And just so everything is perfectly clear, I agree 100 percent with the outcome of this investigation… and I was confident that the emails that were made public had nothing in them that would result in changing anything about the climate science… and I never claimed otherwise.

172 Kragar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:53:06pm

re: #167 brownbagj

So then, back to the computer model issue you brought up…

What is wrong with using computer models. Would you feel better if they were done by hand?

I’d prefer to consult a well trained Haruspex just to be perfectly safe.

173 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:53:53pm

re: #158 darthstar

Now you’re getting literal. I think what people are saying is that scientists use science to predict. It’s quite simple, really. Technical, yes, but simple.

Don’t you just hate it when a register in a Computer chip pre-fetches data and feeds it into the pipe Queue? Effen Scientists are always predicting stuff..
Without Einstein and converting time and speed data that dumb GPS devices wouldn’t work in my car…
If Scientists would just stop predicting stuff we would be better off..
/

174 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:53:58pm

re: #172 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I’d prefer to consult a well trained Haruspex just to be perfectly safe.

I’m tell you, you fools, you can be certain unless you behead a live chicken under the full moon then inspect its entrails!

175 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:54:25pm

re: #165 albusteve

how do we reduce fossil fuel consumption if half (?) the citizens of the world either don’ believe the science or don’t care?…what’s the point of the entire exercise if we don’t move forward and how can we do that post-Climategate?…nobody has offered any solutions here except me…there must be other ideas

All we can do at the moment is reasonable personal conservation, rational political argument, and prepare to educate our replacements—-oh, and vote Progressive.

176 Jack Burton  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:54:37pm

re: #172 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I’d prefer to consult a well trained Haruspex just to be perfectly safe.

I was thinking more along the lines of a Mentat.

177 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:55:03pm

re: #159 LudwigVanQuixote

Right you are a concern troll like Spare and Steve, so I ask you, what about the predictions that I have made is not supported by the science? This too is a technical question, please be specific.

In light of the data and mathematics already presented, please make your case. It really doesn’t matter how you feel. We don’t deal with the emotions of bloggers in physics. We deal with analysis and data. So make your case.

huh?….wtf is your problem now?…while you are busy posting the same rant over and over I.m fishing for solutions…if I’m a concern troll you are a blow hard abusing your own science to be somebody here…leave me out of your problems and I’ll do the same thanks…just don’t address me with that attitude please

178 Pamela Gellar [sic(k)]  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:55:44pm

re: #159 LudwigVanQuixote

Charles pretty much nailed it in 155. I think you should seriously consider that. It’s a purely objective and pragmatic point about doing your own message harm.

And in my opinion—- the same idiot haters who attack you in every single AGW thread are doing what they do deliberately. They intend to provoke you into emotional responses. They do this in order to discredit you and your message. It is patently obvious and no one is fooled by them— but it is not wise for you to assist them.
Bear in mind also that their goal is two-fold: the first is to attack and discredit you. The SECOND is to make you so angry, make your experience here so miserable, that you’ll simply quit posting, drowned out by their seething resentment and hate.

Don’t assist them.

179 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:55:48pm

re: #156 studentpatriot

I just don’t think you can personify “science” and say that it predicted something. Incorrect use of the term.

Really, ever predict an eclipse? We can do that to the millisecond. I also predict that if you measure the ground state of Hydrogen you will get 13.6 eV every time.

Spare me the college sophistry and make an actual argument about science.

180 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:56:08pm

re: #175 Decatur Deb

All we can do at the moment is reasonable personal conservation, rational political argument, and prepare to educate our replacements—-oh, and vote Progressive.

bonk!…got it in at the end, you sneak

181 Reginald Perrin  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:56:22pm
Rapid ice loss continues through June

Average June ice extent was the lowest in the satellite data record, from 1979 to 2010. Arctic air temperatures were higher than normal, and Arctic sea ice continued to decline at a fast pace. June saw the return of the Arctic dipole anomaly, an atmospheric pressure pattern that contributed to the record sea ice loss in 2007.

182 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:56:25pm

re: #170 LudwigVanQuixote

PIMF

However, The prediction of billions dead is not hyperbole. The prediction of war, famine, plague, coastal flooding of 1.5 -2.0 m, loss of crops and fresh water with billions of hungry, disease ridden refugees by centuries end is not hyperbole. That is what the science says. That is also what the deniers are helping to insure.

183 teleskiguy  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:57:23pm

re: #169 albusteve

I guess because of studentpatriot’s highly selective nature when commenting on LGF. A quick looksie at the comments he/she has posted, and it looks like he/she might be a denier of global warming. And that’s OK, if it amuses him/her. But he/she’s probably not going to make too many friends around here.

184 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:57:48pm

re: #98 Obdicut

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the person attacked over and over by so many is the most visible scientist on the board.

God, the anti-intellectualism in this country is going to ruin us.

GOD THIS FOREVER

185 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:58:17pm

re: #173 HoosierHoops

Don’t you just hate it when a register in a Computer chip pre-fetches data and feeds it into the pipe Queue? Effen Scientists are always predicting stuff..
Without Einstein and converting time and speed data that dumb GPS devices wouldn’t work in my car…
If Scientists would just stop predicting stuff we would be better off..
/

Well, the Octopus predicted Spain would beat Germany, and it happened…and bookies use computer modelling as well:

Cape Town - Bookmakers are banking on the Netherlands facing Spain in the 2010 Soccer World Cup final at Soccer City in Soweto on July 11.

Leading SA bookies, GreatOdds, have the Netherlands on offer at 3/5 to beat Uruguay in the first semi-final at the Cape Town Stadium on Tuesday night and progress to the final for the first time since 1978.

Uruguay can be backed at 19/4 while the draw after 90 minutes is on offer at 5/2.

A far tighter affair is expected in Wednesday’s second semi-final between Germany and Spain at the Moses Mabhida Stadium in Durban.

The Germans, the leading scorers at this year’s tournament with 13, enter the match as slight underdogs at 7/4.

Spain, the reigning European champions, are looking to reach their first ever World Cup final. They can be backed at 29/20 to do so, while the draw is perhaps the most attractive prospect at 11/5.

186 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:58:33pm

re: #179 LudwigVanQuixote

Really, ever predict an eclipse? We can do that to the millisecond. I also predict that if you measure the ground state of Hydrogen you will get 13.6 eV every time.

Spare me the college sophistry and make an actual argument about science.

fuck this sort of belligerence…I’m out

187 brownbagj  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 2:59:07pm

re: #172 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I’d prefer to consult a well trained Haruspex just to be perfectly safe.

Its the wigi board for me.

188 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:00:02pm
189 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:00:38pm

re: #178 iceweasel

Charles pretty much nailed it in 155. I think you should seriously consider that. It’s a purely objective and pragmatic point about doing your own message harm.

And in my opinion—- the same idiot haters who attack you in every single AGW thread are doing what they do deliberately. They intend to provoke you into emotional responses. They do this in order to discredit you and your message. It is patently obvious and no one is fooled by them— but it is not wise for you to assist them.
Bear in mind also that their goal is two-fold: the first is to attack and discredit you. The SECOND is to make you so angry, make your experience here so miserable, that you’ll simply quit posting, drowned out by their seething resentment and hate.

Don’t assist them.

What is interesting to me is that you and Charles and others seem to have some image that I am sitting at home fuming. I am not.

When I made that comment about crimes against humanity and that justice would be served by trying those responsible for blocking efforts on a global scale for their own greed, I was making a very simple legal statement. In much the same way that I think mass murderers should be treated, these people should be treated. They are exactly mass murderers.

It is already too late to save Bangladesh and certain Pacific Islands. It is already too late to save those who perished in the heat waves in Asia this summer.

Those people were already murdered by greed. I am making a direct, simple and calculated statement. There is already blood on these people’s hands.

190 Kragar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:01:26pm

re: #187 brownbagj

Its the wigi board for me.

Ouija board.

191 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:01:40pm

Wow. Someone is retweeting the VilestTweets on Twitter.

192 brownbagj  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:02:03pm

re: #190 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ouija board.

Thanks. I noticed that as soon as I sent it, but there is no edit button. :)

193 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:03:11pm

re: #191 Charles

Wow. Someone is retweeting the VilestTweets on Twitter.

Heh…funny how many of those have #tcot attached to them…coincidence?

194 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:03:14pm

re: #178 iceweasel

Good Lord Woman.. I saw the earlier threads…I’m sorry you were attacked like you were…
I find it a privilege having a beautiful liberal NYC woman as a friend here…
You are good people..

195 teleskiguy  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:03:28pm

It is currently 101 degrees in Baltimore. It is currently 64 degrees in San Diego. Something just might be fucked, IMO.

196 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:04:07pm

re: #192 brownbagj

Thanks. I noticed that as soon as I sent it, but there is no edit button. :)

That’s why god put a Preview button on there…oh wait, I meant Charles, not god.

197 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:04:21pm

As an example of two things everyone can do:

1. Read this book:

Cradle to Cradle


It’s about sustainable design. It’s about finding the best solution, rather than just a temporary fix.

2. Read this book:

Darwin’s Dangerous Idea: Evolution and the Meanings of Life

Wherein he explains the ideas for the philosophy of engineering and the concept of design space, two incredibly useful tools in examining solutions to problems in the world.

198 brownbagj  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:04:37pm

re: #189 LudwigVanQuixote

What is interesting to me is that you and Charles and others seem to have some image that I am sitting at home fuming. I am not.

When I made that comment about crimes against humanity and that justice would be served by trying those responsible for blocking efforts on a global scale for their own greed, I was making a very simple legal statement. In much the same way that I think mass murderers should be treated, these people should be treated. They are exactly mass murderers.

It is already too late to save Bangladesh and certain Pacific Islands. It is already too late to save those who perished in the heat waves in Asia this summer.

Those people were already murdered by greed. I am making a direct, simple and calculated statement. There is already blood on these people’s hands.

LVQ, if you have folks that you trust who also seem to think you are being interpreted a certain way, I would consider it. I don’t want to tell you how to post and you are a grownup and can make your own decisions, but the “speaker” needs to understand how he is perceived by his audience. If he thinks things should be taken a certain way, but they are not, then the speaker may need to change tactics.

199 Kragar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:04:41pm

re: #195 teleskiguy

It is currently 101 degrees in Baltimore. It is currently 64 degrees in San Diego. Something just might be fucked, IMO.

Plus, we had a drizzle today.

200 brownbagj  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:05:38pm

re: #196 darthstar

That’s why god put a Preview button on there…oh wait, I meant Charles, not god.

Well, if Charles is g_d, then I guess a lot of people don’t believe in Charles.

/

201 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:05:53pm

re: #189 LudwigVanQuixote

Turning it into a debate about whether they actually are exactly mass murderers will not serve the interests of addressing AGW. It is too abstract.

I think it is a lot more productive to ask people to consider the world their children will inherit and inhabit.

202 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:07:14pm

re: #189 LudwigVanQuixote

When I made that comment about crimes against humanity and that justice would be served by trying those responsible for blocking efforts on a global scale for their own greed, I was making a very simple legal statement. In much the same way that I think mass murderers should be treated, these people should be treated. They are exactly mass murderers.

That’s a legal statement the same way a hot day is climate change.

“Murder” has a precise legal definition.

203 teleskiguy  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:07:17pm

re: #191 Charles

Wow. Someone is retweeting the VilestTweets on Twitter.

Dude, that’s some fucked up shit! (Pardon my sailor mouth today, I’m stuck inside as it’s been raining, I haven’t even ridden my bike yet today.) Is the secret service investigating this twitter account?

204 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:08:22pm

re: #193 darthstar

Heh…funny how many of those have #tcot attached to them…coincidence?

Huh after reading several that made me want to lose my lunch this one

# RT @IronTramp Solution for terriorist in body armor????….HEADSHOTS!!!! #tcot

Seem actually rather cute by comparison to everything else on that page…

205 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:08:35pm

re: #203 teleskiguy

Dude, that’s some fucked up shit! (Pardon my sailor mouth today, I’m stuck inside as it’s been raining, I haven’t even ridden my bike yet today.) Is the secret service investigating this twitter account?

If we knew it wouldn’t be very secret, would it?

206 Pamela Gellar [sic(k)]  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:09:50pm

re: #189 LudwigVanQuixote

What is interesting to me is that you and Charles and others seem to have some image that I am sitting at home fuming. I am not.

No, that’s not my image. The haters KNOW they can’t beat you on the issues, the arguments, or the science, Ludwig. Their attempts to do so get laughed at, before soundly beaten into the ground.

That’s why they seize every possible opportunity to make the issue personal— to make it all about Ludwig, to provoke you and then cluck about how threads ‘mysteriously’ turn into fights when you’re around. Gee, how does that happen?— we all know how, and it’s on them.
Don’t assist them. Over the top statements assist them. You know and I know, and everyone who knows you knows that you aren’t advocating vigilante assassination of deniers— but it’s the kind of thing the haters will seize on, and also the sort of thing stalkers will distort. That’s all.

I’m wholly on your side and support you in this, just offering some suggestions I think might help. Take em or don’t, it’s cool.

207 teleskiguy  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:09:55pm

re: #205 Decatur Deb

If we knew it wouldn’t be very secret, would it?

*rimshot*

208 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:10:11pm

re: #185 darthstar

You do know that the goal scorer’s name was Puylo - which I kept seeing as Pulpo - Octopus. Heh.

209 blueraven  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:12:24pm

re: #119 Obdicut

It’s definitely been making me think long and hard about the best way to raise the kid that I still plan on having.

I won’t be able to promise her/him the future I thought I would be able to ten years ago.

Obdi, you can never, nor should you, promise your child a future. You raise them the best you can; instill values by example, provide what they need not necessarily what they want, give them your unconditional love along with a proper dose of discipline. The rest is up to them.

210 Pamela Gellar [sic(k)]  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:12:26pm

re: #194 HoosierHoops

Good Lord Woman.. I saw the earlier threads…I’m sorry you were attacked like you were…
I find it a privilege having a beautiful liberal NYC woman as a friend here…
You are good people..

Cheers Hoops. You’re good people too. So are most people.

There’s always a few scumbags around, that’s just another day on the intertubes. Thanks.

211 bratwurst  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:13:07pm

re: #208 Stanley Sea

You do know that the goal scorer’s name was Puylo - which I kept seeing as Pulpo - Octopus. Heh.

Puyol…and I used to live about 10 miles from the freakin octopus…if only I had known his wisdom then!

212 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:13:18pm

re: #198 brownbagj

LVQ, if you have folks that you trust who also seem to think you are being interpreted a certain way, I would consider it. I don’t want to tell you how to post and you are a grownup and can make your own decisions, but the “speaker” needs to understand how he is perceived by his audience. If he thinks things should be taken a certain way, but they are not, then the speaker may need to change tactics.

Ohh I absolutely hear you. However, I am not going to pretend that evil has a messenger, and neither should anyone else. Now that is a pure moralistic argument. People don’t like it because it shines a light on them. And you are correct, that upon hearing that, they will get defensive and refuse to listen to the science.

However, as has been pointed out, the evidence for evolution has been out there for over 100 years. Many people in this nation still deny it. The true consequences of this and the sense of personal responsibility to act must be brought home to anyone and everyone who will listen. I have said my piece on this. It need not be repeated.

I will stick to just the science and and the consequences of the science.

To repeat, we start seriously changing course in this decade and drastically reduce fossil fuel emission, world wide, in the next two or three decades or, billions die in a global catastrophe that will cause the collapse of our civilization as we know it, mass extinctions and a damaged Earth that will take thousands of years to recover - which is to say thousands of years before it could support a population like today’s again.

213 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:17:56pm

re: #202 wrenchwench

That’s a legal statement the same way a hot day is climate change.

“Murder” has a precise legal definition.

Murder is unlawful killing. Murder one is premeditated killing. Those who are working against change are most certainly doing so premeditatedly, it will certainly as a direct result kill innocent people - and it already has.

Please explain how that is not murder?

If you wish to say it was not done with personal malice, very well. However, when a terrorist drops a bomb into a crowd he is not targeting people personally.

IF you wish to say that the people and leaders blocking action are not knowingly hoping to cause the deaths they are working towards, then at best it is murder through malfeasance at worst and manslaughter aggravated by gross negligence at best.

214 Kragar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:18:27pm

Personally, my bets on the majority of the world ignoring the problem right up until the shooting starts, and then its down to who can outfight the others for whats left.

215 brownbagj  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:18:49pm

re: #212 LudwigVanQuixote

So….

Where do we start? How does the US lead on this? I will be honest, in my opinion it is not cap and trade.

To me, the ONLY way to make change happen is to somehow prove that change is in “greed’s” best interest. Doing the “right” thing or the “moral” thing will not get the masses involved - nor especially the huge corporations or countries (like China or the US).

The change must somehow be economically “good” for those who will be the driving force behind the change from fossil fuels to alternatives. Otherwise, science be damned, change won’t happen. We have to understand human nature to solve this problem. Human nature is usually about acquiring wealth, power etc. If we cannot somehow show that moving from fossil fuels accomplish this and satisfies that human nature, there will never be the kind of change we hope for.

216 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:19:53pm

re: #206 iceweasel

Ice I get you and I have said my piece.

217 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:20:14pm

re: #178 iceweasel

Hi Ice!
Image: i-sorry.jpg

218 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:21:39pm

re: #214 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Personally, my bets on the majority of the world ignoring the problem right up until the shooting starts, and then its down to who can outfight the others for whats left.

Which will be much shooting over less and less.

219 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:21:48pm

Sharron Angle going for more free publicity…for Harry Reid.

voices.washingtonpost.com

Now that the Harry Reid campaign has reposted Sharron Angle’s previous campaign Web site advertising her Tea Partying positions, Angle may be heading to court to stop him.

That’s what Angle said on a Nevada radio station this morning. Asked by her host whether she intends to pursue Reid in court, Angle said: “We are going to pursue it. I don’t think that Harry is above the law.”

220 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:21:50pm

Just posted some comic relief in the pages,

Rumor has it Palin to replace troubled RNC chair, Democrats and wingnuts ecstatic.

Ok, I made up that last part.

221 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:22:01pm

re: #197 Obdicut

Here’s a cool technology toy that is almost mature (cheap) enough. The goal is to eliminate kerosene lamps. That would have nearly the supposed effect of taking all UK cars off the road.

engadget.com

222 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:22:06pm

re: #214 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Personally, my bets on the majority of the world ignoring the problem right up until the shooting starts, and then its down to who can outfight the others for whats left.

I just hope my Neighbors invest in Survival seeds in the end times..
That way I can go all Zombieland on their asses then sit down for a nice garden Salad with Ranch dressing.

223 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:22:06pm

re: #115 LudwigVanQuixote

Then if you don’t have a problem with the science you must support the conclusions I have claimed. Billions die, America falls, Israel falls, most of Europe falls, Africa and Latin America and most of Asia fall.

We’re all fucked. Kiss your loved ones goodbye.

224 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:22:14pm

re: #215 brownbagj

Cradle to Cradle, the book I cited above, makes very good economic arguments for sustainability.

225 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:22:19pm

re: #215 brownbagj

So…

Where do we start? How does the US lead on this? I will be honest, in my opinion it is not cap and trade.

To me, the ONLY way to make change happen is to somehow prove that change is in “greed’s” best interest. Doing the “right” thing or the “moral” thing will not get the masses involved - nor especially the huge corporations or countries (like China or the US).

The change must somehow be economically “good” for those who will be the driving force behind the change from fossil fuels to alternatives. Otherwise, science be damned, change won’t happen. We have to understand human nature to solve this problem. Human nature is usually about acquiring wealth, power etc. If we cannot somehow show that moving from fossil fuels accomplish this and satisfies that human nature, there will never be the kind of change we hope for.

Nuclear right up front to start… as much money as reasonable toward continuing solar and wind power research… and every individual doing what they can on a daily basis to conserve energy.

226 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:22:52pm

re: #220 Shiplord Kirel

Just posted some comic relief in the pages,

Rumor has it Palin to replace troubled RNC chair, Democrats and wingnuts ecstatic.

Ok, I made up that last part.

Not until 2011…she always wanted to be president…ever since she was denied giving a concession speech in November of 2008.

227 brownbagj  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:23:36pm

re: #224 Obdicut

Downloading on my kindle tonight.

228 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:23:50pm

re: #219 darthstar

Sharron Angle going for more free publicity…for Harry Reid.

[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com…]

Lol, Reid was almost certain to lose until she was nominated…

229 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:24:16pm

re: #222 HoosierHoops

That’s awesome. That’s the kind of stuff I’m talking about.

I think we’re going to get a hell of a lot out of biomimicry, too.

biomimicry.net

230 brownbagj  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:24:31pm

re: #228 Varek Raith

Lol, Reid was almost certain to lose until she was nominated…

That’s the republicans for you - snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

231 lostlakehiker  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:24:39pm

re: #24 LudwigVanQuixote

No, they don’t care. They think that they will somehow be wealthy enough to survive. They think that they will be among the 1/2 to 1/5 of Americans who get the food that is left - if they allow themselves to think in those terms at all. Again, crimes against humanity is not an overstatement for the various denier think tanks, politicians and corporate powers that are strangling progress. They should be tried and hanged.

Not so. Not from the ones I run into, even relatives. What they think is that this is a power play, a story line with which to justify higher taxes and more regulation. That scientists themselves don’t believe this stuff, but say so because that’s the only way to remain in the profession and get grants. That yes, it’s warming, but that this will not go too far and that such warming as does occur will only go to open up new farmlands further North and to cut shipping costs through the Arctic. And that anyhow, the warming trend is nothing new, and it’s been warmer during the medieval warm period.

There’s no use talking to them about the scientific evidence. The only way anyone can know anything, in their view, is to judge motives, and it looks to them as though there’s some profiteering going on.

There will, of course, be profiteering. The American civil war, a noble cause on the Northern side if ever there was one, was also a war where offices were bought and sold, generals were appointed for political reasons, and food not fit to eat was stamped OK and sent to the troops because there was money in it. Nothing human is spotless.

So here we are. There are two ways to budge this portion of the audience: with news of disasters outside the scope of what they imagine possible, or with inventions that solve AGW and are a good idea for other reasons anyhow.

The first method is no fun at all. The second is worth a try. Every green technology should get a good honest look from beady eyed accountants and engineers. With rational assumptions about discount rates and durability and future prices of commodities, can it make its way in the marketplace? Can it come close?

And on the other hand, AGW solutions that are long on regulation and short on payoff should not be put front and center. Ethanol from corn is a perfect example. As green technology, it’s a failure. As a vote getter in Iowa primaries, it’s a winner. That’s exactly the kind of detail on which this faction fastens. Confirmation bias, yes, but our side would win the political fight quicker if we abstained from that kind of own-goal.

232 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:24:55pm

re: #223 Alouette

We’re all fucked. Kiss your loved ones goodbye.

Or: Work to help your loved ones enjoy a better future while you can, and instill in them the values of sustainability and stewardship for this world.

233 Kragar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:26:23pm

re: #232 Obdicut

Or: Work to help your loved ones enjoy a better future while you can, and instill in them the values of sustainability and stewardship for this world.

And teach them how to shoot and survival skills.

234 Pamela Gellar [sic(k)]  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:26:30pm

re: #216 LudwigVanQuixote

Ice I get you and I have said my piece.

No prob cutie. :) A little something I wrote earlier today:
A little something for my ‘fans’.

re: #217 Varek Raith

Hi Ice!
Image: i-sorry.jpg

Hey Varek. Nothing to be sorry for! Cute kitty though. :)

235 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:26:38pm

re: #230 brownbagj

That’s the republicans for you - snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

That used to be the Democratic party’s job.

236 Pamela Gellar [sic(k)]  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:27:41pm

re: #235 darthstar

That used to be the Democratic party’s job.

I’m sure it will always remain a cherished and passionate hobby for them.

237 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:27:49pm

re: #215 brownbagj

So…

Where do we start? How does the US lead on this? I will be honest, in my opinion it is not cap and trade.

To me, the ONLY way to make change happen is to somehow prove that change is in “greed’s” best interest. Doing the “right” thing or the “moral” thing will not get the masses involved - nor especially the huge corporations or countries (like China or the US).

The change must somehow be economically “good” for those who will be the driving force behind the change from fossil fuels to alternatives. Otherwise, science be damned, change won’t happen. We have to understand human nature to solve this problem. Human nature is usually about acquiring wealth, power etc. If we cannot somehow show that moving from fossil fuels accomplish this and satisfies that human nature, there will never be the kind of change we hope for.

Well it turns out that there are numerous solutions that reall could avert all this.

Step one is deploying smart grids, nuclear power, wind power, solar power and the new high energy density batteries.

We have the technology to produce almost all of our power emission free from these techniques.

This has the added benefit of creating millions of American jobs and paying for itself with all of the money that would otherwise have been sending to hateful regimes. It improves security and is all in all a win across all sectors save the fossil fuel industry. While I might be capable of feeling sad for American oil workers, and coal workers I would feel happy that they could get any number of the millions of other jobs created. I would feel no remorse over lost Saudi income.

The US is still the largest polluter. Fixing us first and revitalizing our economy buys the world time and allows us to trade green tech and use carrots and sticks with other nations like China and India. It is fixable. We have the technology to do it and the process is very sound both economically and militarily - unless you are politician or corporation or union that depends on fossil fuels.

238 teleskiguy  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:28:53pm

re: #219 darthstar

If Angle even gets 35% of the vote in Nevada, that still worries me a great deal. That means 35% of the voters in Nevada agree with her “Second Amendment Remedies” and the coming fascist state blah blah blah etc. etc. etc. The political climate seems rather poisonous these days, doncha think?

239 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:29:06pm

re: #228 Varek Raith

Lol, Reid was almost certain to lose until she was nominated…

Ehh I thought he could have beaten the “chickens for checkups” lady who said the secret to fixing Americas healthcare was to bring back battering also…

240 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:29:22pm
241 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:29:24pm

re: #239 jamesfirecat

Ehh I thought he could have beaten the “chickens for checkups” lady who said the secret to fixing Americas healthcare was to bring back battering also…

Bartering… damn it!

242 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:29:34pm

re: #239 jamesfirecat

Ehh I thought he could have beaten the “chickens for checkups” lady who said the secret to fixing Americas healthcare was to bring back battering also…

Oh, yeah!
I forgot about her!

243 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:30:30pm

re: #239 jamesfirecat

Ehh I thought he could have beaten the “chickens for checkups” lady who said the secret to fixing Americas healthcare was to bring back battering also…

And poor Sue Lowden…she has to be thinking, “I lost to THAT!@?!”

244 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:31:12pm

re: #240 darthstar

Wow…what a bitch.

Wow, reading this is like being bitchslapped in the face by the decaying hand of Ayn Rand….

245 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:31:20pm

re: #231 lostlakehiker

Well said and sadly true. I retreat to one salient point. We live in a republic and not a democracy. Our leaders, in principle, act for the best interest of the nation. It is really very simple, we change the road we are on or we lose the nation. The trick is getting enough people to see this and tell their leaders that, so that the leaders don’t feel they will be run out of office for doing what was right.

246 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:31:57pm

re: #238 teleskiguy

If Angle even gets 35% of the vote in Nevada, that still worries me a great deal. That means 35% of the voters in Nevada agree with her “Second Amendment Remedies” and the coming fascist state blah blah blah etc. etc. etc. The political climate seems rather poisonous these days, doncha think?

Or 35% of voters couldn’t care less what Angle says or does, and just pull the level for any R.

it is poisonous, but there’s also a lot of rank who-cares ignorance. LOT of people who couldn’t be bothered to read a voting phamphlet who vote like their parents did, who are tuned out of politics but yet also reliable partisans.

247 prairiefire  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:32:07pm

re: #237 LudwigVanQuixote

My husband’s company is involved in Smart Grid research. I’ll have to ask him if he has heard much about it. It’s being paid for by the Feds.

248 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:32:12pm

re: #223 Alouette

We’re all fucked. Kiss your loved ones goodbye.

Embrace the science, extend the apathy.

249 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:32:33pm

re: #234 iceweasel

Brilliant post. Did you see the crap Savage wrote to you today?

250 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:34:27pm

re: #247 prairiefire

My husband’s company is involved in Smart Grid research. I’ll have to ask him if he has heard much about it. It’s being paid for by the Feds.

There is much to hear. Smart grids are all about improving transmission lines and fast switching by computer control over a widely distributed network with many smaller inputs.

Denmark, Germany, Israel and the US military have done a great deal of work on these things.

251 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:34:39pm

re: #242 Varek Raith

Oh, yeah!
I forgot about her!

Post that cool iceweasel you found again!!!!

252 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:35:11pm

re: #223 Alouette

We’re all fucked. Kiss your loved ones goodbye.

Or see 237.

253 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:35:21pm

re: #251 Stanley Sea

Post that cool iceweasel you found again!!!

Image: iceweasel2.png

254 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:35:47pm

re: #228 Varek Raith

Lol, Reid was almost certain to lose until she was nominated…

She can get Orly to represent her.

255 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:37:11pm

re: #201 Obdicut

Turning it into a debate about whether they actually are exactly mass murderers will not serve the interests of addressing AGW. It is too abstract.

I think it is a lot more productive to ask people to consider the world their children will inherit and inhabit.

I absolutely agree. That was always the main point.

256 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:37:41pm

re: #213 LudwigVanQuixote

Murder is unlawful killing. Murder one is premeditated killing. Those who are working against change are most certainly doing so premeditatedly, it will certainly as a direct result kill innocent people - and it already has.

Please explain how that is not murder?

If you wish to say it was not done with personal malice, very well. However, when a terrorist drops a bomb into a crowd he is not targeting people personally.

IF you wish to say that the people and leaders blocking action are not knowingly hoping to cause the deaths they are working towards, then at best it is murder through malfeasance at worst and manslaughter aggravated by gross negligence at best.

That’s better. Be sure to differentiate between generic “deniers”, which could be anyone; and those who are blocking action, the ones who have the power and knowledge to do the right thing, but choose the wrong thing. When you join those two groups in your condemnation, you look most bloodthirsty.

257 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:37:51pm

Will the end of the world be like in the Fallout games???

258 webevintage  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:38:32pm

re: #240 darthstar

Wow…what a bitch.

hahahahaha

Evil Communist Youths Refuse To Let Financial Columnist Pay For Lemonade
wonkette.com

259 Jack Burton  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:38:40pm

re: #250 LudwigVanQuixote

There is much to hear. Smart grids are all about improving transmission lines and fast switching by computer control over a widely distributed network with many smaller inputs.

Denmark, Germany, Israel and the US military have done a great deal of work on these things.

I can guarantee you the layperson masses in the US think it means “A way for the power company/government to shut off my AC when its 105 out.”

More positive PR needs to get out there.

260 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:39:42pm

re: #259 ArchangelMichael

I can guarantee you the layperson masses in the US think it means “A way for the power company/government to shut off my AC when its 105 out.”

More positive PR needs to get out there.


haha you beat me to it, far right paranoid whinging will just be all over any smart grid advances. And then there’ll be something about the evil Pelosi and on and on we go

261 Kragar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:39:42pm

re: #257 Varek Raith

Will the end of the world be like in the Fallout games???

Start stockpiling those caps.

262 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:40:40pm

re: #257 Varek Raith

Will the end of the world be like in the Fallout games???

Well, thankfully we stuck with cars that don’t run on fusion :D

263 Jack Burton  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:41:10pm

re: #261 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Start stockpiling those caps.

We got until October 23, 2077 then. It will be Mad Maxish for about 5 years before that though.

264 brownbagj  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:44:59pm

re: #231 lostlakehiker

Agreed, agreed. Put the political policies behind us as it only helps those who believe in AGW being a way to increase wealth of certain factions. These policies such as ethanol etc just make “green” seem like another scheme.

I couldn’t have said it better.

265 Kragar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:46:07pm

re: #263 ArchangelMichael

We got until October 23, 2077 then. It will be Mad Maxish for about 5 years before that though.

Got my Hockey Mask and loincloth all picked out.

266 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:46:13pm

re: #256 wrenchwench

That’s better. Be sure to differentiate between generic “deniers”, which could be anyone; and those who are blocking action, the ones who have the power and knowledge to do the right thing, but choose the wrong thing. When you join those two groups in your condemnation, you look most bloodthirsty.

I made that distinction in the very first post that mentioned this. I was rather careful to. I then repeated that distinction. The post you are talking about is the third time this thread, I repeated that distinction.

267 brownbagj  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:46:58pm

re: #241 jamesfirecat

Bartering… damn it!

Suuuuure. You meant to say bartering…sure.

//

268 Jack Burton  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:47:42pm

re: #265 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Got my Hockey Mask and loincloth all picked out.

Trying to find a 1973 Australian Ford Falcon XB GT and an oil refinery out in the desert.

269 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:48:36pm

re: #259 ArchangelMichael

I can guarantee you the layperson masses in the US think it means “A way for the power company/government to shut off my AC when its 105 out.”

More positive PR needs to get out there.

Ironically, it is a way to guarantee that your AC does NOT shut off when it is 105. The whole point of a distributed grid with large battery reservoirs is that you don’t need to rely on only a few generators operating at near brown out during peak hours.

270 Jaerik  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:49:08pm

This might be slightly off-topic, but I’ve always wondered:

One of the more common allegations by deniers is that the scientists have been inconsistent, etc. Why has no one called them on the inconsistencies in their own arguments?

Is the world heating up? Yes or no? And if yes, are humans causing it?

You can’t nail deniers down on either of these. Sarah Palin, for example, has flip-flopped on that first question many times over the past several years. The deniers hedge their bets with “well okay the world is getting warmer, but it might not be humans’ fault” whenever evidence presents itself to that effect. They take the point of the concerned, intelligent skeptic who believes the scientific data about increasing global mean temperatures, but just doesn’t quite agree with that last point. More research needed. Perhaps not anthropogenic. Economic impact. Might be the sun. Need more evidence. Etc.

Then they gleefully fall back to “Hahaha, see? It’s not warming at all!” whenever we have a snow storm.

Why does no one ever call them on that?

271 Jack Burton  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:50:23pm

re: #269 LudwigVanQuixote

Ironically, it is a way to guarantee that your AC does NOT shut off when it is 105. The whole point of a distributed grid with large battery reservoirs is that you don’t need to rely on only a few generators operating at near brown out during peak hours.

Yep. You know this, I know this, but the apathetic masses who have 5 second attention spans and vote don’t. It needs a PR firm and commercial air time.

272 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:50:38pm

re: #259 ArchangelMichael

I can guarantee you the layperson masses in the US think it means “A way for the power company/government to shut off my AC when its 105 out.”

More positive PR needs to get out there.

Actually I should be careful with my last post. The whole point relative to AC going down was the first point. The other points of a smart grid are that you don’t need to keep generators on idle and burning power for no reason as much either and that you can incorporate multiple different energy sources.

273 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:50:50pm

re: #271 ArchangelMichael

Yep. You know this, I know this, but the apathetic masses who have 5 second attention spans and vote don’t. It needs a PR firm and commercial air time.

Boobs?!
Where!?
/

274 Jack Burton  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:51:47pm

re: #273 Varek Raith

Boobs?!
Where!?
/

Figure out how to get boobs into green technology and the problem will be solved in less than a decade.

275 Kragar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:53:01pm

re: #268 ArchangelMichael

Trying to find a 1973 Australian Ford Falcon XB GT and an oil refinery out in the desert.

I’ve got a few reasonable alternatives staked out. Think tricked out AMC Eagle and a desalinization plant.

276 brownbagj  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:54:30pm

I live in the south. If you could make AGW threaten college football, you would have all of the volunteers you need.

Again, we have to make changing from fossil fuels to alternative fuels be in each person’s best interest. If not, it just won’t be real enough. A problem a hundred years from now (or even 50) just doesn’t ring true enough.

We are taught in corporate America to think in quarter sized bites. This is why executives make stupid long-term decisions and great short term decisions. This attitude permeates our society. We have to USE that to get this done.

The threat of apocalypse just isn’t enough.

277 Jack Burton  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:55:08pm

re: #275 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I’ve got a few reasonable alternatives staked out. Think tricked out AMC Eagle and a desalinization plant.

That desalinization plant they are building in Carlsbad should be done well before Pocky Clips.

278 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:55:25pm

re: #268 ArchangelMichael

Trying to find a 1973 Australian Ford Falcon XB GT and an oil refinery out in the desert.

In a pinch, this’ll do! Basically an australian Holden with a Pontiac badge

279 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:55:56pm

re: #270 Jaerik

This might be slightly off-topic, but I’ve always wondered:

Actually, this is an excellent post.

One of the more common allegations by deniers is that the scientists have been inconsistent, etc. Why has no one called them on the inconsistencies in their own arguments?

The whole process of peer review and experimentation is where the scientific community itself checks scrupulously for inconsistencies.

Is the world heating up? Yes or no? And if yes, are humans causing it?

Yes and Yes absolutely. The fingerprints of human activities that make us so certain are in the papers linked above, as are the simple temperature readings.

You can’t nail deniers down on either of these. Sarah Palin, for example, has flip-flopped on that first question many times over the past several years.

Well that is because they are not scientists and their goal is not the truth. Their goal is saying whatever will keep their benefactors in the fossil fuel business wealthy.

The deniers hedge their bets with “well okay the world is getting warmer, but it might not be humans’ fault” whenever evidence presents itself to that effect. They take the point of the concerned, intelligent skeptic who believes the scientific data about increasing global mean temperatures, but just doesn’t quite agree with that last point. More research needed. Perhaps not anthropogenic. Economic impact. Might be the sun. Need more evidence. Etc.

These are all delaying tactics that result from conscious efforts by political and corporate interests to muddy the waters. The fact is that 30 years ago, you could argue a lot more about needing more research to be sure. These days not so much.

Then they gleefully fall back to “Hahaha, see? It’s not warming at all!” whenever we have a snow storm.

Which is just idiocy.

Why does no one ever call them on that?

We do. They refuse to hear.

280 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:56:17pm

re: #278 WindUpBird

In a pinch, this’ll do! Basically an australian Holden with a Pontiac badge

Image: tank11.jpg

281 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:56:24pm

re: #271 ArchangelMichael

Yep. You know this, I know this, but the apathetic masses who have 5 second attention spans and vote don’t. It needs a PR firm and commercial air time.

Yes it does.

282 Kragar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:58:54pm

re: #277 ArchangelMichael

That desalinization plant they are building in Carlsbad should be done well before Pocky Clips.

And a trained team of assassins will deliver it into my hands when the time is ripe!

283 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:59:07pm

re: #277 ArchangelMichael

That desalinization plant they are building in Carlsbad should be done well before Pocky Clips.

I’ve got the core of this:

Image: 2456776361_65306aa143.jpg

284 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:59:21pm

re: #276 brownbagj

I live in the south. If you could make AGW threaten college football, you would have all of the volunteers you need.

Again, we have to make changing from fossil fuels to alternative fuels be in each person’s best interest. If not, it just won’t be real enough. A problem a hundred years from now (or even 50) just doesn’t ring true enough.

We are taught in corporate America to think in quarter sized bites. This is why executives make stupid long-term decisions and great short term decisions. This attitude permeates our society. We have to USE that to get this done.

The threat of apocalypse just isn’t enough.

Well if you look at the report published for government officials that I linked way above, you will see that places like Texas will experience many days - over 30 per summer over 120 degrees F in the summer and 120 days over 100 per year.

I imagine it is really hard to play football in that - especially when you look at the lack of available fresh water and food for the players.

Also if you root for teams like Houston or New Orleans, those cities end up under water.

285 brownbagj  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:59:56pm

Going blackberry pickin’ with the kids and wife. BBL!

286 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:00:40pm

re: #266 LudwigVanQuixote

I made that distinction in the very first post that mentioned this. I was rather careful to. I then repeated that distinction. The post you are talking about is the third time this thread, I repeated that distinction.

I reviewed, and you are correct. I’d say 90% of your posts in this thread clearly make the distinction.

287 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:01:05pm

re: #286 wrenchwench

I reviewed, and you are correct. I’d say 90% of your posts in this thread clearly make the distinction.

Thank you.

288 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:01:53pm

I’ve been watching the three evening newscasts, ABC, NBC, CBS, and so far not one of them has even mentioned the newest investigative report exonerating the IPCC scientists. So much for the “librul” MSM that only and always wants to shove the evil scientist conspiracy down our pure and innocent throats. Meanwhile every news segment, including the monumentally important 70th birthday for Ringo, was interspersed with ads for the newest glitziest cars. Like I said earlier, color me not shocked.

289 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:04:55pm

One problem I’d like to address is the pittance that power companies pay to residential customers who generate excess power from their home solar and wind rigs and feed that excess energy into the grid.

Deregulating the power industry broke the link between the generation and delivery of energy, and destroyed the incentive power companies used to have to pay well for a distributed residential solar network.

290 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:05:02pm

CNN Editor Fired for Saying She Has “Respect” for Hezbollah Cleric

Mediaite reports that CNN has fired senior editor of Middle East affairs Octavia Nasr. As Daniel Halper pointed out the other day, Nasr wrote on Twitter on July 4 that she was “sad” to hear of the death of Hezbollah’s Sayyed Mohammad Hussein Fadlallah—a man for whom she has “respect.” Fadlallah had justified suicide bombings, is believed to be responsible for the Marine barracks bombing, and had said that “Zionism has inflated the number of victims in this Holocaust beyond imagination.”

291 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:05:58pm

re: #289 goddamnedfrank

One problem I’d like to address is the pittance that power companies pay to residential customers who generate excess power from their home solar and wind rigs and feed that excess energy into the grid.

Deregulating the power industry broke the link between the generation and delivery of energy, and destroyed the incentive power companies used to have to pay well for a distributed residential solar network.

This part of why the GOP deregulated.

292 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:06:54pm

re: #288 Irenicum

I’ve been watching the three evening newscasts, ABC, NBC, CBS, and so far not one of them has even mentioned the newest investigative report exonerating the IPCC scientists. So much for the “librul” MSM that only and always wants to shove the evil scientist conspiracy down our pure and innocent throats. Meanwhile every news segment, including the monumentally important 70th birthday for Ringo, was interspersed with ads for the newest glitziest cars. Like I said earlier, color me not shocked.

Yes it is shameful, They “raised questions” shamelessly, and falsely, but they do not care to fix the truth.

293 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:08:54pm

re: #292 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah, and now that the “news” is over, it’s all Lindsey all the time. Ya know, the really important stuff. Our culture is filled with a bunch of f**king morons.

294 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:09:08pm

re: #257 Varek Raith

Will the end of the world be like in the Fallout games???

re: #262 WindUpBird

Well, thankfully we stuck with cars that don’t run on fusion :D

How about fission?

Ford Nucleon

The Ford Nucleon was a nuclear-powered concept car developed by Ford Motor Company in 1958. The design did not include an internal-combustion engine, rather, the vehicle was to be powered by a small nuclear reactor in the rear of the vehicle. The vehicle featured a power capsule suspended between twin booms at the rear. The capsule, which would contain a radioactive core for motive power, was designed to be easily interchangeable, according to the performance needs and the distances to be travelled.

It’s my understanding that Ford also produced a nuclear tank mock-up, looking rather like a late-model Sherman with an extra-long rear deck. The Army saw little use for a combat vehicle that would generate a major catastrophe if its engine compartment were penetrated by enemy fire, so the project didn’t get anywhere.

295 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:10:49pm

re: #293 Irenicum

Yeah, and now that the “news” is over, it’s all Lindsey all the time. Ya know, the really important stuff. Our culture is filled with a bunch of f**king morons.

By the way, I have heard some things that Lindsey is in trouble again obliquely, what is the short form?

296 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:11:18pm

re: #295 LudwigVanQuixote

By the way, I have heard some things that Lindsey is in trouble again obliquely, what is the short form?

Judge gave her a sad. 90 days in the pokey.

297 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:11:55pm

re: #296 darthstar

And 90 in rehab after that.

298 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:12:44pm

re: #294 Shiplord Kirel

It’s my understanding that Ford also produced a nuclear tank mock-up, looking rather like a late-model Sherman with an extra-long rear deck. The Army saw little use for a combat vehicle that would generate a major catastrophe if its engine compartment were penetrated by enemy fire, so the project didn’t get anywhere.

One of my regular “Old Guy Who Likes to Talk” visitors tells me he was working on nuclear train engines in California back in the day, whenever that was.

299 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:13:21pm

re: #276 brownbagj

I live in the south. If you could make AGW threaten college football, you would have all of the volunteers you need.

And Gators.

This is such a true statement and made me laugh.

300 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:13:23pm

re: #296 darthstar

Judge gave her a sad. 90 days in the pokey.

re: #297 Irenicum

And 90 in rehab after that.

For some sort of drug induced silliness in public?

301 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:13:59pm

re: #293 Irenicum

Yeah, and now that the “news” is over, it’s all Lindsey all the time. Ya know, the really important stuff. Our culture is filled with a bunch of f**king morons.

would they include video gamers and cartoon watchers?

302 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:14:51pm

re: #297 Irenicum

And 90 in rehab after that.

And that really is the point… there is no way that could be less important than the oil spill. Geeze, she’s a human train wreck. I retreat to my moral stance that we really have it coming if we don’t change.

303 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:15:23pm

That girl is seriously messed up. She showed to the latest hearing with an expletive written on her middle fingernail “f**k you” and repeatedly flashed it while covering her tearful face. I used to be sympathetic to her. She really needs a good ass kicking to set her straight.

304 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:15:47pm

re: #301 albusteve

would they include video gamers and cartoon watchers?

BOO!
HISS!

305 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:16:22pm

re: #301 albusteve

I’d say many of them are an improvement.

306 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:16:29pm

re: #304 Varek Raith

BOO!
HISS!

oh hi Varek!….sup?

307 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:16:58pm

re: #306 albusteve

oh hi Varek!…sup?

Nothing much. Hotter than hell. Code red AQI.

You?

308 Nimed  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:17:08pm

re: #296 darthstar

Judge gave her a sad. 90 days in the pokey.


re: #300 LudwigVanQuixote

For some sort of drug induced silliness in public?

OK, I admit I know nothing about Lindsey Lohan. Was she sentenced to 3 months in jail for doing drugs?

309 kirkspencer  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:17:34pm

In my cynical view, we tend to make major changes only when near-term greed or necessity are involved. For too many people, anything further away than next week might as well be never.

310 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:17:41pm

re: #300 LudwigVanQuixote

For some sort of drug induced silliness in public?

Actually it was a DUI a couple of years ago that she failed to honor the probation for. After many chances.

311 Nimed  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:17:54pm

re: #301 albusteve

would they include video gamers and cartoon watchers?

It depends on the games and cartoons.

312 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:18:02pm

re: #300 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah, and repeatedly flagrantly breaking her probation. The judge was finally fed up.

313 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:18:35pm

re: #308 Nimed

See my 312.

314 Nimed  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:19:07pm

re: #313 Irenicum

See my 312.

Why was she on probation?

315 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:19:24pm

re: #309 kirkspencer

I wish I could disagree with you but I can’t.

316 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:19:25pm

re: #308 Nimed

OK, I admit I know nothing about Lindsey Lohan. Was she sentenced to 3 months in jail for doing drugs?

See 310, that was the first I heard also. I only asked what the story was to get a feel for how vapid it is.

317 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:19:49pm

re: #314 Nimed

The initial drug charge.

318 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:20:26pm

re: #309 kirkspencer

In my cynical view, we tend to make major changes only when near-term greed or necessity are involved. For too many people, anything further away than next week might as well be never.

But this is one case where if we do choose that, it will be too late. BY the time things get really bad in the US, the trends will be irreversible.

319 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:21:17pm

re: #316 LudwigVanQuixote

And I feel dirty for even knowing this much. But having the stupid boob toob on for more than 30 seconds told me everything I needed to know about this earthshaking news.

320 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:21:17pm

re: #291 LudwigVanQuixote

This part of why the GOP deregulated.

It is noteworthy that Enron was brought down by an old fashioned semi-socialist Public Utility District. Enron was raping the entire West Coast so bad towards the end of Clinton’s second term that he instituted price caps, which Bush rescinded the second he took office. In Washington State the degree of privatization was determined at the local level, and those commies at the Snohomish County PUD determined that actual fraud had occurred and that they couldn’t in good conscience ask their ratepayers to cover it. t They refused to pay Enron and pulled the entire house of cards down. Fed regulators determined that Snohomish owed Enron nothing for the broken contracts, but the bankruptcy judge ordered binding arbitration. In the end Enron and Snohomish settled for 10 cents on the contract dollar.

321 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:21:49pm

re: #310 Stanley Sea

Actually it was a DUI a couple of years ago that she failed to honor the probation for. After many chances.

hi,
I’m albusteve and I’m an immoral shitstain…
it all started three years ago, when I posted my first comment at LGF…

322 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:22:40pm

re: #309 kirkspencer

In my cynical view, we tend to make major changes only when near-term greed or necessity are involved. For too many people, anything further away than next week might as well be never.

Well, this isn’t entirely true. People study hard in college for careers they want, event hough those careers are a long way off. Many people plan for their children.

Many of our ancestors moved to this country because they saw a better future here, for themselves and their children. Many immigrants still come here for that.

I know many parents who sacrifice themselves for their children in many ways. I really think that is the most useful tool to use, to ask parents to work towards a better future for their children.

The stock market, and corporations, on the other hand, are mostly, mathematically, set up for short-term profit. That is one of the most significant barriers; corporate culture, and corporate personhood.

323 Boogberg  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:23:19pm

re: #309 kirkspencer

In my cynical view, we tend to make major changes only when near-term greed or necessity are involved. For too many people, anything further away than next week might as well be never.

Is it any surprise? We’ve had damn near exponential technological advances in the past 100 years. For all we know, the problem of global warming might very well be solved within the next 20 years.

324 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:23:43pm

re: #319 Irenicum

And I feel dirty for even knowing this much. But having the stupid boob toob on for more than 30 seconds told me everything I needed to know about this earthshaking news.

I use my TV for combat aircraft stuff and football….
there is no other use for it….maybe how they make it while I fall out..I know how they make tomato soup and I bet you don’t

325 Nimed  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:23:57pm

re: #316 LudwigVanQuixote

See 310, that was the first I heard also. I only asked what the story was to get a feel for how vapid it is.

That’s what I thought, but Mandy was making a point yesterday about these girls getting too much shit for their silliness and getting their lives transformed into a morality play.

I sympathize with the general point, but don’t know the specifics regarding Lindsey Graham. 3 months seems excessive for a drug offense, but she repeatedly violated probation, I guess that’s fine.

326 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:24:15pm

re: #320 goddamnedfrank

It is noteworthy that Enron was brought down by an old fashioned semi-socialist Public Utility District. Enron was raping the entire West Coast so bad towards the end of Clinton’s second term that he instituted price caps, which Bush rescinded the second he took office. In Washington State the degree of privatization was determined at the local level, and those commies at the Snohomish County PUD determined that actual fraud had occurred and that they couldn’t in good conscience ask their ratepayers to cover it. t They refused to pay Enron and pulled the entire house of cards down. Fed regulators determined that Snohomish owed Enron nothing for the broken contracts, but the bankruptcy judge ordered binding arbitration. In the end Enron and Snohomish settled for 10 cents on the contract dollar.

Damn straight. You might think that after the SNL crisis and the financial meltdown and Enron and the oil spill, the GOP would learn that some things ought to be regulated… You might think that.

327 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:24:27pm

re: #324 albusteve

I hear they don’t even use tomatoes. Shhh!!

328 albusteve  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:25:18pm

re: #325 Nimed

That’s what I thought, but Mandy was making a point yesterday about these girls getting too much shit for their silliness and getting their lives transformed into a morality play.

I sympathize with the general point, but don’t know the specifics regarding Lindsey Graham. 3 months seems excessive for a drug offense, but she repeatedly violated probation, I guess that’s fine.

it boils down to one thing…
she fucked around with the court and that’s a no no

329 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:25:39pm

re: #323 Boogberg

Is it any surprise? We’ve had damn near exponential technological advances in the past 100 years. For all we know, the problem of global warming might very well be solved within the next 20 years.

I assure you it won’t. Or perhaps better said, we can solve it now with the technology we have. In twenty years, it will be beyond the technology we can even imagine to fix if we just start trying to do something then.

330 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:25:46pm

re: #326 LudwigVanQuixote

Oh Ludwig, you know better! This is the modern GOP we’re talking about. No regulation is ever good, and no corporation is ever bad. End of story.

331 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:25:48pm

re: #323 Boogberg

We haven’t had exponential advances, though. Most of the advances have had costs that we discount when we talk about them being advances. If you factor in the negatives, a lot of ‘advances’ have not had a huge amount of value.

332 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:25:55pm

re: #328 albusteve

it boils down to one thing…
she fucked around with the court and that’s a no no

Bingo!

333 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:26:40pm

re: #325 Nimed

What Lindsey Graham showed his cookies again!

334 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:26:57pm

re: #331 Obdicut

Or rather: Most of the advances depend on unsustainable systems.

The only real, real advances are those that are sustainable. Unsustainable advances won’t last.

335 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:27:01pm

re: #325 Nimed

That’s what I thought, but Mandy was making a point yesterday about these girls getting too much shit for their silliness and getting their lives transformed into a morality play.

I sympathize with the general point, but don’t know the specifics regarding Lindsey Graham. 3 months seems excessive for a drug offense, but she repeatedly violated probation, I guess that’s fine.

I really don’t care to be honest. She rather clearly brought this on herself in many ways and this was not her first appearance. What bothers me is that anyone thinks it matters.

336 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:27:50pm

re: #335 LudwigVanQuixote

I really don’t care to be honest. She rather clearly brought this on herself in many ways and this was not her first appearance. What bothers me is that anyone thinks it matters.

Right you are.
Now.
Who shot first?
Han?
or
Greedo?
/

337 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:27:52pm

re: #320 goddamnedfrank

I had no idea! Way to go Snohomish!

338 Nimed  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:28:20pm

re: #333 Irenicum

What Lindsey Graham showed his cookies again!

re: #325 Nimed

That’s what I thought, but Mandy was making a point yesterday about these girls getting too much shit for their silliness and getting their lives transformed into a morality play.

I sympathize with the general point, but don’t know the specifics regarding Lindsey Graham Lohan. 3 months seems excessive for a drug offense, but she repeatedly violated probation, I guess that’s fine.

Oh shit. PIMF, for God’s sake, PIMF a thousand times!

339 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:28:41pm

re: #336 Varek Raith

Right you are.
Now.
Who shot first?
Han?
or
Greedo?
/

Han… Then Lucas murdered Han on his way to raping Indy.

340 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:28:42pm

re: #325 Nimed

That’s what I thought, but Mandy was making a point yesterday about these girls getting too much shit for their silliness and getting their lives transformed into a morality play.

I sympathize with the general point, but don’t know the specifics regarding Lindsey Graham. 3 months seems excessive for a drug offense, but she repeatedly violated probation, I guess that’s fine.

She repeatedly violated the terms of her probation and was given several warnings.

She deserves the 3 months, her hysterics and weeping and tears notwithstanding.

341 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:29:01pm

re: #339 LudwigVanQuixote

Han… Then Lucas murdered Han on his way to raping Indy.

Correct!

342 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:29:14pm

re: #321 albusteve

I laughed. !

344 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:31:16pm

re: #325 Nimed

That’s what I thought, but Mandy was making a point yesterday about these girls getting too much shit for their silliness and getting their lives transformed into a morality play.

Mandy’s nonexistent “point” completely avoided the fact that Lohan was drunk driving.

345 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:31:45pm

re: #338 Nimed

No problem. It gave me a great laugh.

346 Boogberg  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:32:41pm

re: #331 Obdicut

We haven’t had exponential advances, though. Most of the advances have had costs that we discount when we talk about them being advances. If you factor in the negatives, a lot of ‘advances’ have not had a huge amount of value.

There’s a lot more people around, too. Not really sure how many people the Earth can reasonably be expected to sustain.

347 Nimed  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:33:17pm

re: #321 albusteve

hi,
I’m albusteve and I’m an immoral shitstain…
it all started three years ago, when I posted my first comment at LGF…

Hi albusteve!

Though I suspect you’re exploring this group a la Ed Norton in Fight Club.

348 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:33:36pm

By the way, I want to sincerely apologize for turning this thread, even in part, into a Lindsey Lohan thread. Please resume regularly scheduled programming.

349 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:33:38pm

I’m out for a bit.

350 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:34:11pm

re: #326 LudwigVanQuixote

Damn straight. You might think that after the SNL crisis and the financial meltdown and Enron and the oil spill, the GOP would learn that some things ought to be regulated… You might think that.

The MC252 well was regulated by the MMS. The regulator approved the actions that most likely caused the blow out. Every step of the well construction was submitted to the regulator and approved. Furthermore the regulator was under direct Democratic control in the run-up to the accident.

In fact the well was planned, submitted to the regulator and approved entirely during the current administration in which the GOP were not in power.

351 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:35:20pm

re: #350 Bagua

Yes, we all know it’s ALL the Democrats fault. Right.

352 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:35:38pm

re: #337 wrenchwench

I had no idea! Way to go Snohomish!

I know, right. Those guys are heroes.

This used to be local news for me, a long time ago in another life I used to wrench on bikes at Gregg’s Greenlake.

353 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:36:42pm

re: #334 Obdicut

re: #339 LudwigVanQuixote

Hey. Been on vaca for a few days.

I’m on a Liquid Fuel Thorium Reactor reading kick…i can’t get enough, mostly because i can’t figure out what the catch is.

Either of you have thoughts on whether there’s a catch? And if not, why in the name of holy heaven aren’t we all begging congress for one?

354 Boogberg  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:36:51pm

re: #348 Irenicum

By the way, I want to sincerely apologize for turning this thread, even in part, into a Lindsey Lohan thread. Please resume regularly scheduled programming.

It just goes to show these so-called “celebrities” have all the problems normal people do.

355 Nimed  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:38:00pm

re: #344 WindUpBird

Mandy’s nonexistent “point” completely avoided the fact that Lohan was drunk driving.

Right, I didn’t know that. I do think that some people revel in watching the life of these “celebrities” circling the drain.

356 Interesting Times  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:38:00pm

re: #329 LudwigVanQuixote

I assure you it won’t. Or perhaps better said, we can solve it now with the technology we have. In twenty years, it will be beyond the technology we can even imagine to fix if we just start trying to do something then.

Here’s something I’ve been meaning to tell you about for a while - I haven’t had time to watch the videos yet, but there looks to be some great info here:

A Key Strand in the Web of Life: PhytoPlankton

The green areas in this next clip, show the Plankton Blooms that routinely take in Carbon Dioxide, and put back Oxygen. The cycle that the Web of Life very much depends on.

It goes on to talk about the pros and cons of “geoengineering” more of the stuff. On that note, do you think any of the geoengineering ideas out there actually show any promise? You’ve said yourself that, even if CO2 emissions drop to zero right now, all that’s already trapped in the atmosphere will continue to cause warming…so, it would be good to know if there was at least something out there that could deal with it, and is worth more research dollars…

357 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:38:27pm

re: #351 Irenicum

Yes, we all know it’s ALL the Democrats fault. Right.

Nope. Read my post, I’m not blaming one particular party, I’m pointing out that blaming the GOP and “deregulation” is also false. The blow out was primarily a mistake by BP, but BP could not act alone and the drilling industry is heavily regulated. Thus it was very much a regulatory failure, not a lack of regulation.

358 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:38:34pm

re: #350 Bagua

By the way Bagua, I’m not saying it’s solely a GOP thing either. But trying to pin this on the Dems is just silly. The combination of the deregulatory fever and the complete lack of enforcing any regs that actually exist, is what led to this accident. That, and BP’s criminal negligence.

359 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:38:48pm

re: #352 goddamnedfrank

I know, right. Those guys are heroes.

This used to be local news for me, a long time ago in another life I used to wrench on bikes at Gregg’s Greenlake.

I was at Bicycles West, at their northern most store. I was offered a job at Aurora Cycles, but it was too far away.

360 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:39:23pm

re: #357 Bagua

Sorry for the cross post delay, but read my 358.

361 Four More Tears  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:39:31pm

re: #355 Nimed

Right, I didn’t know that. I do think that some people revel in watching the life of these “celebrities” circling the drain.

It makes us feel better about ourselves. Yeah, I’m petty like that…

362 Nimed  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:40:23pm

re: #348 Irenicum

By the way, I want to sincerely apologize for turning this thread, even in part, into a Lindsey Lohan thread. Please resume regularly scheduled programming.

Shame on you! My subconscious did try to steer this to Lindsey Graham, who was one of the few Republicans receptive to climate change legislation…

363 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:40:56pm

My company’s having a little “mixer” with the sales people coming in to meet us engineers right now. Tons of food…that’s just one corner of it…basically there are 24 feet of ‘snacks’ wrapped around one part of the room… I’m staying away, as I don’t want to be tempted (though I did grab a Heineken) though I did try the prosciutto-wrapped spinach with goat cheese…yum.

364 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:41:05pm

re: #358 Irenicum

By the way Bagua, I’m not saying it’s solely a GOP thing either. But trying to pin this on the Dems is just silly. The combination of the deregulatory fever and the complete lack of enforcing any regs that actually exist, is what led to this accident. That, and BP’s criminal negligence.

Read my post above. You are incorrect. They did not “fail to enforce” nor was there any “deregulation” involved. The regulator specifically looked at all the warning signs, dismissed them and approved the actions that directly resulted in the blow up. Looking to blame the GOP or Democrats is misguided and misses the point entirely.

365 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:41:59pm

re: #364 Bagua

Are you familiar with the ethical culture that existed at MMS? What led to that?

366 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:43:13pm

re: #346 Boogberg

There’s a lot more people around, too. Not really sure how many people the Earth can reasonably be expected to sustain.

At present rates, somewhere around 3 billion by 2100. There are almost 7 billion on the planet now. You do thee math.

367 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:43:53pm
368 Nimed  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:43:55pm

re: #361 JasonA

It makes us feel better about ourselves. Yeah, I’m petty like that…

It’s funny, because I was thinking about you when I wrote the comment.
/

369 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:44:30pm

re: #364 Bagua

Read my post above. You are incorrect. They did not “fail to enforce” nor was there any “deregulation” involved. The regulator specifically looked at all the warning signs, dismissed them and approved the actions that directly resulted in the blow up. Looking to blame the GOP or Democrats is misguided and misses the point entirely.

The MMS has sixty case officers to handle 1500+ permit applications, and a 30 day window. There’s no way in hell they can do a decent job of processing that many permits properly.

370 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:44:37pm

re: #353 Aceofwhat?

All I know about them I know through Lee S. Langston, who is a gas turbine promoter but is relatively unbiased, as far as I know.

memagazine.org

He thinks they’re ambitious but likes them.

Personally? I’m not in the least qualified to judge efficiency of reactor designs.

371 windsagio  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:45:07pm

re: #362 Nimed

Psst they’re actually the same person.

Best drag queen in the world.

372 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:45:07pm

re: #365 Irenicum

Are you familiar with the ethical culture that existed at MMS? What led to that?

Absolutely, and I’m aware of much more than what is reported in the media or anywhere else for that matter. I could highlight many problems that go back several decades.

However, it was not those problems that led to the MC252 blowout. The political party in power or preceding was also irrelevant. The regulator failed and made an historically bad decision.

373 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:45:25pm

re: #366 LudwigVanQuixote

At present rates, somewhere around 3 billion by 2100. There are almost 7 billion on the planet now. You do thee math.

Is that number a distillation of yours from certain articles that we’ve…*cough*…discussed in past months?

374 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:45:46pm

re: #369 darthstar

The MMS has sixty case officers to handle 1500+ permit applications, and a 30 day window. There’s no way in hell they can do a decent job of processing that many permits properly.

So… that excuses them for doing it improperly?

375 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:46:58pm

re: #353 Aceofwhat?

re: #339 LudwigVanQuixote

Hey. Been on vaca for a few days.

I’m on a Liquid Fuel Thorium Reactor reading kick…i can’t get enough, mostly because i can’t figure out what the catch is.

Either of you have thoughts on whether there’s a catch? And if not, why in the name of holy heaven aren’t we all begging congress for one?

We are not the innovators we once were. Perhaps someone else will prove the feasibility first and then we can buy it from them?//

376 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:47:01pm

re: #357 Bagua

Nope. Read my post, I’m not blaming one particular party, I’m pointing out that blaming the GOP and “deregulation” is also false. The blow out was primarily a mistake by BP, but BP could not act alone and the drilling industry is heavily regulated. Thus it was very much a regulatory failure, not a lack of regulation.

Regulatory failures can equate to lack of regulation. When regulations simply get bypassed, it’s effective deregulation.

In addition, BP simply lied about their ability to deal with spills like this, which is something that’s kind of hard to catch. When corporations are willing to engage in baldface lying, it causes an additional, gigantic challenge for regulators.

377 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:47:04pm

re: #356 publicityStunted

It goes on to talk about the pros and cons of “geoengineering” more of the stuff. On that note, do you think any of the geoengineering ideas out there actually show any promise? You’ve said yourself that, even if CO2 emissions drop to zero right now, all that’s already trapped in the atmosphere will continue to cause warming…so, it would be good to know if there was at least something out there that could deal with it, and is worth more research dollars…

I will have to review those links later. Thank you very much for posting those. Phytoplankon and ocean algae are where we get most of our oxygen from and most of our CO2 scrubbing ability from.

Alas, as we acidify the oceans and kill thes things off from pollution, we create enormous dead zones in the seas. I liked a paer above that tlks a great deal about ocean anoxia. In many ways this is the worst long term affect of climate change.

378 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:47:29pm

re: #374 Walter L. Newton

So… that excuses them for doing it improperly?

No, it means they’ve been defanged to the point where they’re incapable of handling the responsibility they’re given. That’s why all the oil companies can use the exact same safety plan, with references to dead experts and non-existent walruses.

379 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:48:06pm

re: #372 Bagua

However, it was not those problems that led to the MC252 blowout. The political party in power or preceding was also irrelevant. The regulator failed and made an historically bad decision.

Gee, I think maybe the company, BP, had something to do with it too.

380 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:48:25pm

Did I miss the day the BP disaster became the fault of the regulators?

381 windsagio  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:48:26pm

re: #378 darthstar

Stealth deregulation because they knew they couldn’t get away with doing it baldfaced >>

382 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:48:29pm

re: #373 Aceofwhat?

Is that number a distillation of yours from certain articles that we’ve…*cough*…discussed in past months?

Yes, I could be off by as much as 500 million. You do the mat in the best case then. That is all in the papers I have linked above.

383 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:48:42pm

re: #369 darthstar

The MMS has sixty case officers to handle 1500+ permit applications, and a 30 day window. There’s no way in hell they can do a decent job of processing that many permits properly.

The 30 day window is also not an issue in the MC252 blow-out. Nor is under-staffing or whatever. The exact procedures were followed over months. Documented, discussed and the regulator made the decision to approve the steps that led to the blow-out killing those men and creating the ecological havoc.

Grasping at straws to fit a narrative is tempting, but the facts of this case argue that there was no lack of regulation involved. Rather, a failure by the regulators just as there was a failure by the drilling management. They worked together to give us this one.

384 windsagio  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:49:01pm

re: #380 Stanley Sea

God knows it wasn’t BP’s fault! The market corrects all errors!

385 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:49:44pm

re: #370 Obdicut

All I know about them I know through Lee S. Langston, who is a gas turbine promoter but is relatively unbiased, as far as I know.

[Link: www.memagazine.org…]

He thinks they’re ambitious but likes them.

Personally? I’m not in the least qualified to judge efficiency of reactor designs.

Huh? That article discussed a pebble-bed design in South Africa, unfortunately one I hear they’ve recently abandoned.

I’m talking about Liquid Fuel Thorium Reactors.

quick summary:

1) You start with a fluoride salt. In this reactor it will be heated so much that it melts.
2) You dissolve thorium fluoride in the liquid salt.
3) Thorium-232 absobs neutrons and turns ino Uranium-233.
4) The Uranium-233 fissions and produces heat plus more neutrons.



Advantages include:

1) There is no pressure – unlike traditional nuclear reactors which contain high pressue steam. So the reactor cannot explode.
2) The fuel does not need to be shaped into pellets
3) The reactor can add fuel and remove waste at any time
4) There are no weapon-grade materials involved
5) Thorium is abundant and most of it is used up in the reaction
6) The fission products are relatively benign and short-lived compared to those of a traditional reactor.

386 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:49:53pm

re: #376 Obdicut

Better said than me. Thanks.

387 windsagio  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:50:38pm

Oh random thing I heard on the radio on my way back from Powells.

Apparently in either the most recent quarter or in the first quarter of this year, US exports are up 17%.

That’s a pretty awesome number :D

388 Boogberg  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:51:15pm

re: #366 LudwigVanQuixote

At present rates, somewhere around 3 billion by 2100. There are almost 7 billion on the planet now. You do thee math.

Uh oh. “Soylent Green is people!” lol

389 windsagio  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:51:30pm

re: #385 Aceofwhat?

Wait, if there’s no steam pressure, how do they generate electricity?

390 sattv4u2  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:51:41pm

re: #374 Walter L. Newton

Hey ,, have you finished the last batch of stones yeT?

You’ve got mail, (or shortly will) btw

391 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:51:43pm

re: #378 darthstar

And thanks to you too Darthstar. Kicking some factual butt.

392 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:51:47pm

re: #375 Naso Tang

We are not the innovators we once were. Perhaps someone else will prove the feasibility first and then we can buy it from them?//

IIRC, we proved it back in 1965. I can’t figure out for the life of me, other than typical government stupidity and the widespread availability of other fossil fuels, why we stopped investing in the design. I can’t find any instances of failure or results which disproved the science.

It’s weird.

393 windsagio  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:52:10pm
394 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:52:45pm

Well, my stomach’s rumbling and I’ve got to eet.

395 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:52:51pm

Oh crap, crap.

I allowed myself to get sucked into a Facebook flame fest with a “Jewish settlers are subhuman” moonbat. Why, why? I should know better.

OK I have hidden that conversation and now the only thing that I see on FB is pictures of my grandkids. (sigh)

396 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:52:53pm

re: #376 Obdicut

Regulatory failures can equate to lack of regulation. When regulations simply get bypassed, it’s effective deregulation.

Of course, and I could point to thing I believe should be regulated differently. However, all indication are that this is irrelevant to the MC252 blow-out. There was no “de-regulation” that directly applied to the accident. Each step was regulated, examined and approved



In addition, BP simply lied about their ability to deal with spills like this, which is something that’s kind of hard to catch. When corporations are willing to engage in baldface lying, it causes an additional, gigantic challenge for regulators.

That is a separate issue. The inability to deal with the spill did not cause the well to blow out. It should not have happened and we need to take an honest look at the failure points and put aside partisan political games.

397 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:53:15pm

re: #385 Aceofwhat?

Sorry, wrong piece by him, or I’ve got my designs mixed up. Anyway: i’m not in the least an expert on various nuclear designs.

398 sattv4u2  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:53:16pm

re: #369 darthstar

The MMS has sixty case officers to handle 1500+ permit applications, and a 30 day window. There’s no way in hell they can do a decent job of processing that many permits properly.

ummm,, thats only 25 cases per worker

Less than 1 per day!

399 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:53:44pm

re: #378 darthstar

No, it means they’ve been defanged to the point where they’re incapable of handling the responsibility they’re given. That’s why all the oil companies can use the exact same safety plan, with references to dead experts and non-existent walruses.

I don’t believe in defanged employees. I’m sorry, I guess I’m one of those hard asses, who frequently butts heads with upper management (and sometimes suffer from it), but I won’t back down from making a point that something is wrong, or righting it myself if at all possible.

So, when I see these kind of excuses, I cringe a bit. And if the oil companies kept filing carbon-copied safety plans that had no place in reality, someone should have been the whistle blower…

And I know, easier said than done, but since enough of the bureaucracy has now seen the horrendous outcome of not doing a good job, hopefully now, it will be done, and if big oil needs it’s legs cut out from under them to dix this, it needs fixing.

Unfortunately, having worked both for the oil drilling industry and for the government, I fear that neither side is going to learn shit… that’s the nature of the problem to start with.

400 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:54:08pm

BIG EARTHQUAKE

401 windsagio  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:54:20pm

re: #396 Bagua

I do like the ‘if I speak forcefully enough, people will HAVE to believe me!’ schtick :)

402 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:54:45pm

re: #382 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes, I could be off by as much as 500 million. You do the mat in the best case then. That is all in the papers I have linked above.

We don’t need to have this debate again. I prefer to let the authors make those conclusions; if they haven’t, it means they can’t (at least not within a margin of error too large to make the conclusion helpful).

It seems…presumptuous…to draw such precise conclusions that the authors won’t.

Anyway, let’s talk about LFT reactors. Do we have a fantastic solution just waiting for us to rediscover it or what?

403 sattv4u2  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:54:48pm

re: #369 darthstar

re: #398 sattv4u2

ummm,, thats only 25 cases PERMITS per worker

Less than 1 per day!

pimf

404 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:55:24pm

re: #379 Obdicut

Gee, I think maybe the company, BP, had something to do with it too.

Don’t be smart alec. I said in #357 “The blow out was primarily a mistake by BP, but BP could not act alone and the drilling industry is heavily regulated.”

Now you are going to pretend I was ignoring BP’s role?

405 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:55:26pm

re: #390 sattv4u2

Hey ,, have you finished the last batch of stones yeT?

You’ve got mail, (or shortly will) btw

Yes… just finished making 8 new chokers, 3 for Flip Flop Bead Store in Pine Junction, 3 for a new customer, The Pine Emporium in Pine Colorado and 2 for my Esty store.

406 Political Atheist  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:55:51pm

Whoa earthquake at the Rim of The World…. Blue Jay Calif…

407 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:56:15pm

re: #385 Aceofwhat?

Huh? That article discussed a pebble-bed design in South Africa, unfortunately one I hear they’ve recently abandoned.

I’m talking about Liquid Fuel Thorium Reactors.

quick summary:

1) You start with a fluoride salt. In this reactor it will be heated so much that it melts.
2) You dissolve thorium fluoride in the liquid salt.
3) Thorium-232 absobs neutrons and turns ino Uranium-233.
4) The Uranium-233 fissions and produces heat plus more neutrons.


Advantages include:

1) There is no pressure – unlike traditional nuclear reactors which contain high pressue steam. So the reactor cannot explode.
2) The fuel does not need to be shaped into pellets
3) The reactor can add fuel and remove waste at any time
4) There are no weapon-grade materials involved
5) Thorium is abundant and most of it is used up in the reaction
6) The fission products are relatively benign and short-lived compared to those of a traditional reactor.

Very interesting post Ace..You know I could talk Nuke shit all night long…
I’m and old school primary coil guy.. I was ready to just write you off..Then I see Westinghouse involved in the project..Westinghouse reactors drive the Navy..Very interesting Ace…

408 sattv4u2  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:56:19pm

re: #405 Walter L. Newton

Yes… just finished making 8 new chokers, 3 for Flip Flop Bead Store in Pine Junction, 3 for a new customer, The Pine Emporium in Pine Colorado and 2 for my Esty store.

When my son comes back from vacation (late next week) he and probably I will be shopping there !!

409 windsagio  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:56:28pm

re: #400 Stanley Sea

re: #406 Rightwingconspirator

JUST showed up on USGS.

Wasn’t on their site 10 seconds ago :D

410 Political Atheist  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:56:32pm

re: #406 Rightwingconspirator

Little aftershock

411 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:56:35pm

re: #353 Aceofwhat?

re: #339 LudwigVanQuixote

Hey. Been on vaca for a few days.

I’m on a Liquid Fuel Thorium Reactor reading kick…i can’t get enough, mostly because i can’t figure out what the catch is.

Either of you have thoughts on whether there’s a catch? And if not, why in the name of holy heaven aren’t we all begging congress for one?

This gets into a lot of history with General Atomics, the cold war and the history of the early nuclear industry in America.

The short form is that we wanted to make reactors that could capitalize on our Uranium reserves and breed plutonium for weapons. Further the technologies for such reactors were already developed first as a result of military research. It was felt at the time that those sorts of reactors would power the future and the companies were frothing to deploy existing technologies.

As a result, this promising technology fell by the wayside. Consider it a nuclear betamax.

I am not a nuclear engineer enough to go into the details of this design or that design being better than others to the level you might want. I know people who swear by this technology as a wave of the future. I also know that pebble bed reactors would do the job really well right now and we can make various fuel cycles with those as well.

I understand that the Japanese have a huge project going on with pursuing this.

Personally, I would like to start building the reactors we can now and phase in the new designs as we move forward.

412 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:56:40pm

re: #406 Rightwingconspirator

Whoa earthquake at the Rim of The World… Blue Jay Calif…

I felt it good.

413 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:56:43pm

re: #400 Stanley Sea

Breakage big?

414 Boogberg  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:57:32pm

re: #393 windsagio

Renew! Renew!


[Video]

Fuck that noise. I’d rather eat the dead people. :D

415 windsagio  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:57:50pm

re: #414 Boogberg

I guess it is more efficient :D

416 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:57:55pm

re: #398 sattv4u2

ummm,, thats only 25 cases per worker

Less than 1 per day!

And how many pages of documentation do they get to process in that one day? All snark aside, one would think granting a permit to an oil company to drill a multi-million dollar well in a sensitive environmental area might deserve more than eight hours of attention. Hell, look how long it takes to get a permit to build a bridge across a stream.

417 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:58:05pm

re: #408 sattv4u2

When my son comes back from vacation (late next week) he and probably I will be shopping there !!

Thank you.

418 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:58:39pm

re: #413 Irenicum

Breakage big?

Nah, just my chair moved, a lot.

419 Bubblehead II  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:58:46pm

A Couple of books the Lizard nation might be interested in.

Living on 12 V DC with Ample Power
And
Wiring 12 V DC For Ample Power

These are mainly concerned with maritime power requirements, but are also equally applicable for land based applications

As well as a couple of interesting web sites.

Earthtech Products (Solar panels)

And

Independence Electric Company (12VDC CFL lamps)

420 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:58:57pm

re: #416 darthstar

And how many pages of documentation do they get to process in that one day? All snark aside, one would think granting a permit to an oil company to drill a multi-million dollar well in a sensitive environmental area might deserve more than eight hours of attention. Hell, look how long it takes to get a permit to build a bridge across a stream.

With or without a troll below the bridge?

421 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:58:57pm

re: #396 Bagua

Of course, and I could point to thing I believe should be regulated differently. However, all indication are that this is irrelevant to the MC252 blow-out. There was no “de-regulation” that directly applied to the accident. Each step was regulated, examined and approved

Nothing was bypassed? No exceptions were granted?

That is a separate issue. The inability to deal with the spill did not cause the well to blow out. It should not have happened and we need to take an honest look at the failure points and put aside partisan political games.

That’s great. However, obviously the ability to deal with a spill when it happens is critically important to allowing regulations to be bypassed. If the company assures MMS that it won’t actually be that gigantic a disaster, it’s much easier to let them bypass a step. You cannot separate disaster response from prevention. There is no way to assure that a blowout will never occur.

The GOP has, and continues to, champion deregulation in many ways. The failure of regulation has been pointed to by some people, bafflingly, as proof that we should do away with regulation; obviously, it means we need to strengthen regulation and make it more effective. Unfortunately, given the dishonesty of BP and other companies, this also means more investigation and enforcement.

422 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:59:06pm

re: #401 windsagio

I do like the ‘if I speak forcefully enough, people will HAVE to believe me!’ schtick :)

re: #380 Stanley Sea

Did I miss the day the BP disaster became the fault of the regulators?

I’ll be more than happy to stop posting about the MC252 leak if that is the general wish here on LGF. I’ve spent a great deal of time researching and detailing my findings here. But if the preference is to just play politics and play a blame game without understanding the actual mechanics of the failure then enjoy.

423 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:59:22pm

re: #418 Stanley Sea

That’s good. Never been through one. I suspect it would be “interesting.”

424 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:59:46pm

re: #389 windsagio

Wait, if there’s no steam pressure, how do they generate electricity?

There is no steam pressure related to the cooling process.

425 Political Atheist  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:00:02pm

re: #418 Stanley Sea

We felt it clearly up here in the mountains above SBDO.

426 windsagio  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:00:03pm

re: #422 Bagua

To be frank, I think you did just enough reading to appear as an authority and then used that leverage to angle in the proper talking points.

Its a pretty savvy strategy really.

427 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:00:13pm

re: #385 Aceofwhat?


I’m talking about Liquid Fuel Thorium Reactors.

quick summary:

1) You start with a fluoride salt. In this reactor it will be heated so much that it melts.
2) You dissolve thorium fluoride in the liquid salt.
3) Thorium-232 absobs neutrons and turns ino Uranium-233.
4) The Uranium-233 fissions and produces heat plus more neutrons.


Advantages include:


1) There is no pressure – unlike traditional nuclear reactors which contain high pressue steam. So the reactor cannot explode.

Actually the liquid salt would be under very high pressure. The issue is that you can more easily regulate fuel consumption.

2) The fuel does not need to be shaped into pellets

True, but that is what makes other reactor designs impervious to meltdown. However, it is easier to extract isotopes for a fuel cycle from the liquid salt than it is to extract it from the pellets.

3) The reactor can add fuel and remove waste at any time
4) There are no weapon-grade materials involved
5) Thorium is abundant and most of it is used up in the reaction
6) The fission products are relatively benign and short-lived compared to those of a traditional reactor.

428 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:00:19pm

5.9

429 windsagio  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:00:37pm

re: #424 Aceofwhat?

Gotcha! Not disputing the technology, just wallowing in my ignorance :D

430 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:00:39pm

re: #428 Stanley Sea

That’s a decent one.

431 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:00:42pm

re: #422 Bagua

I’ll be more than happy to stop posting about the MC252 leak if that is the general wish here on LGF. I’ve spent a great deal of time researching and detailing my findings here. But if the preference is to just play politics and play a blame game without understanding the actual mechanics of the failure then enjoy.

Well, if there is any chance that even a single iota of blame or responsibility for any of this problem can be placed at the feet of the current administration, you better shut up now.

432 windsagio  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:01:02pm

re: #428 Stanley Sea

How many of those do you guys get in a year? Up here its about 1 a decade or less.

433 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:01:05pm

re: #404 Bagua

Don’t be smart alec. I said in #357 “The blow out was primarily a mistake by BP, but BP could not act alone and the drilling industry is heavily regulated.”

Now you are going to pretend I was ignoring BP’s role?

You just made one careless post, is all, when you said:


However, it was not those problems that led to the MC252 blowout. The political party in power or preceding was also irrelevant. The regulator failed and made an historically bad decision.

It’s not a big deal, and you don’t need to treat it as a personal attack.

434 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:01:09pm

re: #422 Bagua

I’ll be more than happy to stop posting about the MC252 leak if that is the general wish here on LGF. I’ve spent a great deal of time researching and detailing my findings here. But if the preference is to just play politics and play a blame game without understanding the actual mechanics of the failure then enjoy.

That’s my point, I missed the day when it became the fault of the regulators at the MMS. I thought it was the bad decision making on the well by BP and the others there.

435 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:01:14pm

re: #407 HoosierHoops

Very interesting post Ace..You know I could talk Nuke shit all night long…
I’m and old school primary coil guy.. I was ready to just write you off..Then I see Westinghouse involved in the project..Westinghouse reactors drive the Navy..Very interesting Ace…

Yeah, i keep forgetting that; i keep associating you with IT. My bad!

So what do you think?

436 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:01:43pm

re: #426 windsagio

To be frank, I think you did just enough reading to appear as an authority and then used that leverage to angle in the proper talking points.

Its a pretty savvy strategy really.

Lol. Any particular points to cite? Or are you just speaking from ignorance and making a partisan judgement?

What exactly went wrong Windsagio, enlighten me.

437 sattv4u2  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:01:44pm

re: #416 darthstar

And how many pages of documentation do they get to process in that one day? All snark aside, one would think granting a permit to an oil company to drill a multi-million dollar well in a sensitive environmental area might deserve more than eight hours of attention. Hell, look how long it takes to get a permit to build a bridge across a stream.

Okay ,,,so how long should one permit take if not one day? (and seeing that it’s most likey boilerplate stuff,,, same form over and over, just with different numbers,, platform 1 is at latitude XXX longitude YYY,,,will be drilling V miles down ,, platform 2 is at lititude XYX,,longitude YXY,,, will be drilling U miles down ,, , etc)

And where di you get the 1500 number from if I may ask (as well as the 60 workers ,, sorry ,, just got here)

438 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:01:57pm

re: #422 Bagua

I’ll be more than happy to stop posting about the MC252 leak if that is the general wish here on LGF. I’ve spent a great deal of time researching and detailing my findings here. But if the preference is to just play politics and play a blame game without understanding the actual mechanics of the failure then enjoy.

You are just fine..I for one, and many others appreciate the research you have done…This is why Charles has Pages so we have have the resources to go in depth with stories like yours..

439 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:01:58pm

re: #422 Bagua

I’ll be more than happy to stop posting about the MC252 leak if that is the general wish here on LGF. I’ve spent a great deal of time researching and detailing my findings here. But if the preference is to just play politics and play a blame game without understanding the actual mechanics of the failure then enjoy.

I think what’s happening is you’re playing politics and using your research as cover for false equivalency.

440 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:02:09pm

re: #426 windsagio

To be frank, I think you did just enough reading to appear as an authority and then used that leverage to angle in the proper talking points.

Its a pretty savvy strategy really.

JINX!

441 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:02:32pm

re: #432 windsagio

How many of those do you guys get in a year? Up here its about 1 a decade or less.

Lately? More than I can remember in one year.

442 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:02:48pm

re: #436 Bagua

Lol. Any particular points to cite? Or are you just speaking from ignorance and making a partisan judgement?

What exactly went wrong Windsagio, enlighten me.

We’re speaking from observation of your arguments, actually

443 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:03:21pm

re: #433 Obdicut

It’s not a big deal, and you don’t need to treat it as a personal attack.

No, my post is correct Obdicut. Please cite the mistake? Educate me on what went wrong.

444 windsagio  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:03:31pm

re: #436 Bagua

What went wrong is that there were way too many shortcuts taken on the rig, and that due to a combination of corporate malfeasance (aka lying) and an intentional neutering of the MMS over the last few decades there was no meaningful response plan in place :p

445 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:04:04pm

re: #439 WindUpBird

I think what’s happening is you’re playing politics and using your research as cover for false equivalency.

In what way? Explain.

446 Boogberg  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:04:11pm

re: #415 windsagio

Interesting how science fiction has dealt with population problems. I know several episodes in the Star Trek franchise have addressed it. And of course some excellent movies like the one you mentioned.

447 windsagio  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:04:12pm

in the TMI category, I’m totally naked right now!

448 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:04:23pm

re: #427 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually the liquid salt would be under very high pressure. The issue is that you can more easily regulate fuel consumption.

I don’t believe that’s true. With a boiling point at ~1400C, higher than the salt would need to be heated, there will be enough liquid pressure to keep the solution moving around but nothing like the pressure you’d get with a steam by-product. There will be no boiling.

With neutral pressure moving liquid salt around, the infrastructure becomes far less expensive because you don’t need to guard against a coolant blow-out.

449 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:04:27pm

Hoops, what’s your take on liquid thorium reactors? You are a nuke much more than me.

450 Mr Pancakes  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:05:03pm

re: #428 Stanley Sea

5.9

Yea that was a good one….. mild compared to the Easter Sunday 7.2. I heard the other day that quake moved the city of Calexico 2 1/2 feet in a southerly direction.

451 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:05:13pm

re: #444 windsagio

What went wrong is that there were way too many shortcuts taken on the rig, and that due to a combination of corporate malfeasance (aka lying) and an intentional neutering of the MMS over the last few decades there was no meaningful response plan in place :p

What short cuts exactly? How did this occur? Are you saying the MMS was unaware of what was done and did not approve it?

You haven’t a clue.

452 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:05:35pm

re: #429 windsagio

Gotcha! Not disputing the technology, just wallowing in my ignorance :D

No sweat, my dude. I’ve been spending a ton of spare time reading about this and for the life of me, i can’t figure out why it isn’t 10x better than even new-generation nuke plants, which are 100000x better than coal plants…

453 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:05:50pm

re: #451 Bagua

What short cuts exactly? How did this occur? Are you saying the MMS was unaware of what was done and did not approve it?

You haven’t a clue.

What about the decisions on the rig? Wasn’t that the cause?

454 Political Atheist  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:05:55pm

re: #428 Stanley Sea

Temecula might have light damage. I need to logoff, we just finished eating at the great cafe. Excellent food at the diner looking place. I hope all are well. We may post the sunset later if we get a good one. Three shots from today are up in a page.

BTW… SQUIRREL!

455 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:06:20pm

re: #428 Stanley Sea

5.9

everything ok, my friend?

456 sattv4u2  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:06:44pm

BRB

457 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:07:10pm

re: #447 windsagio

in the TMI category, I’m totally naked right now!

Now if you were one of the lovely ladies here, I would be much more interested… I am sorry I don’t swing that way buddy ;)

458 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:07:13pm

re: #455 Aceofwhat?

everything ok, my friend?

Fine (thanks Ace!!) So far in my experience it’s exciting, not scary. So far.

459 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:07:18pm

re: #453 Stanley Sea

What about the decisions on the rig? Wasn’t that the cause?

Why answer my question with a question. I assume you know as you are correcting me.

460 windsagio  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:07:30pm

re: #451 Bagua

As memory serves there were some very specific lazy decisions made on the rig that directly contributed to the blowout being so disasterous.

As to the other things, where have you been? We’ve been talking about the ‘recovery plans’ fiasco for weeks now.

461 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:08:21pm

re: #447 windsagio

in the TMI category, I’m totally naked right now!

but still posting away…i approve of your priorities

462 windsagio  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:08:49pm

re: #461 Aceofwhat?

Need to clean ALL my cool clothes for the trip, so everythings in the laundry :D

463 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:09:13pm

re: #459 Bagua

Why answer my question with a question. I assume you know as you are correcting me.

Geeze. Don’t get all defensive. I got involved in this conversation because I was left with the impression it was the actions on the rig, by the people on the rig that caused the explosion. Not the MMS. Your post implied it was the MMS.

It’s not always a fight on LGF. damn.

464 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:09:21pm

re: #460 windsagio

As memory serves there were some very specific lazy decisions made on the rig that directly contributed to the blowout being so disasterous.

As to the other things, where have you been? We’ve been talking about the ‘recovery plans’ fiasco for weeks now.

That’s pretty thin windsagio, you can’t specify what you are referring to and yet you are dismissing me as full of shit?

465 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:09:53pm

re: #462 windsagio

Need to clean ALL my cool clothes for the trip, so everythings in the laundry :D

Of course there was a good reason. hahaha

466 windsagio  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:10:10pm

re: #464 Bagua

actually it was just about as much detail as you’ve been including, just posted with less absolute force.

re: #463 Stanley Sea

Lol >> egg on my face, sorry SS ;)

467 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:11:06pm

re: #463 Stanley Sea

Geeze. Don’t get all defensive. I got involved in this conversation because I was left with the impression it was the actions on the rig, by the people on the rig that caused the explosion. Not the MMS. Your post implied it was the MMS.

It’s not always a fight on LGF. damn.

I’ve been posting on the oil leak since day one, in detail. All of the sudden I’m being dismissed rudely because I won’t accept a false narrative to play the partisan blame game.

468 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:11:12pm

re: #435 Aceofwhat?

Yeah, i keep forgetting that; i keep associating you with IT. My bad!

So what do you think?

20 years as a Nuke at Mare Island…I’m IT now and love technology…
You want to know why? This is funny..When I transfered into Bld690 as a pup and a completely qualified Nuclear DOD Gov’t employee..Nobody and I mean Nobody had a clue about computers..The old timers didn’t have a clue and they had a complete newly installed windows 3.11 for workgroups. I jumped on it…I ran our little network in blg690 and just love Technology…

469 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:11:21pm

Everyone -

For the LAST TWO (2) DAYS, we in the NY Metro Area have had local Temperature records. AND? Well OVER 90% of us have survived. It was HOT, UNCOMFORTABLE, We Survived. We are Humans HERE on Earth. Our Dogs, had we thought of it, were showered/hosed down before they were walked. So far as I have seen, far less than 100 PERSONS have died due to the heat here in the US. As I recall, France, in 2003 lost about 10,000, generally elderly, without access to new A/C units (Like DUH! Capitalism - they were shipped into IRAQ, where folks were ready to pay “TOP CURRENCY” to get ANY A/C unit they could get their Hands On - AND - So It Is.

-S-

470 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:12:06pm

re: #466 windsagio

actually it was just about as much detail as you’ve been including, just posted with less absolute force.

re: #463 Stanley Sea

Lol >> egg on my face, sorry SS ;)

So you admit you can’t back up you charges with any detail. Just nonsense about “posted with less force.” Lol.

471 windsagio  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:12:55pm

re: #470 Bagua

I’m saying you’re not either!


I’m just, y’know, honest.

472 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:13:30pm

re: #469 Dr. Shalit

Everyone -

For the LAST TWO (2) DAYS, we in the NY Metro Area have had local Temperature records. AND? Well OVER 90% of us have survived. It was HOT, UNCOMFORTABLE, We Survived. We are Humans HERE on Earth. Our Dogs, had we thought of it, were showered/hosed down before they were walked. So far as I have seen, far less than 100 PERSONS have died due to the heat here in the US. As I recall, France, in 2003 lost about 10,000, generally elderly, without access to new A/C units (Like DUH! Capitalism - they were shipped into IRAQ, where folks were ready to pay “TOP CURRENCY” to get ANY A/C unit they could get their Hands On - AND - So It Is.

-S-

You mean you had over 100 degree days in NYC… gee, I remember days like that in the 50’s… and no one had air conditioning in our brownstones…

473 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:14:02pm

re: #468 HoosierHoops

20 years as a Nuke at Mare Island…I’m IT now and love technology…
You want to know why? This is funny..When I transfered into Bld690 as a pup and a completely qualified Nuclear DOD Gov’t employee..Nobody and I mean Nobody had a clue about computers..The old timers didn’t have a clue and they had a complete newly installed windows 3.11 for workgroups. I jumped on it…I ran our little network in blg690 and just love Technology…

Cool. Are you familiar with a basic LFTReactor layout? There’s one here.

nucleargreen.blogspot.com

474 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:14:09pm

re: #468 HoosierHoops

20 years as a Nuke at Mare Island…I’m IT now and love technology…
You want to know why? This is funny..When I transfered into Bld690 as a pup and a completely qualified Nuclear DOD Gov’t employee..Nobody and I mean Nobody had a clue about computers..The old timers didn’t have a clue and they had a complete newly installed windows 3.11 for workgroups. I jumped on it…I ran our little network in blg690 and just love Technology…

So seriously, this is far more your expertise than mine. Could you look into thorium reactors and give us a serious opinion about the technology?

475 windsagio  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:14:10pm

actually, it occurs I’m just picking a fight, no matter how right I think I am.

I’m gonna spare everyone else that conflict and go on to the next thing :)

476 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:14:51pm

re: #471 windsagio

I’m saying you’re not either!

I’m just, y’know, honest.

No, you are being ignorant. This is a serious subject and I’m happy to debate anyone of the facts and back up every assertion I make.

477 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:15:06pm

re: #472 Walter L. Newton

You mean you had over 100 degree days in NYC… gee, I remember days like that in the 50’s… and no one had air conditioning in our brownstones…

We in Florida are yawning at the weather on the east coast right now…

478 lostlakehiker  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:15:35pm

re: #276 brownbagj

I live in the south. If you could make AGW threaten college football, you would have all of the volunteers you need.

Again, we have to make changing from fossil fuels to alternative fuels be in each person’s best interest. If not, it just won’t be real enough. A problem a hundred years from now (or even 50) just doesn’t ring true enough.

We are taught in corporate America to think in quarter sized bites. This is why executives make stupid long-term decisions and great short term decisions. This attitude permeates our society. We have to USE that to get this done.

The threat of apocalypse just isn’t enough.

Expectations of the future have consequences here and now. Imagine that everyone believed that the U.S. would be broke in 100 years. Now, what’s that going to do to prices for T-bills with a maturity of 100 years? Not that there are any, but please play along.

Of course, they’ll be next to worthless. Now, what about 20 year obligations? The ones that typically are rolled over. Well, looking ahead, the fifth rollover will fail, which means that nobody is going to offer much on the fourth, and so on and so forth, and the expectations reverberate right back to here and now.

What happens to beachfront real estate price when it becomes evident that sea levels are rising? Of course. The price drops to the equivalent rental over a twenty year span, or however long it is expected to be before the encroaching sea claims the property.

And football? Already we see kids dying of heat stroke in training and I wouldn’t be surprised to learn also during games. Football is impossible when the temperature goes too high, and it’s impossibly dangerous at less drastic temperatures. Yes, there’s a threat to football.

479 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:15:51pm

re: #471 windsagio

I’m saying you’re not either!

I’m just, y’know, honest.

Bullshit, I made clear statements as to what went wrong. Prove me wrong. But don’t just heckle me.

480 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:16:52pm

re: #478 lostlakehiker

Expectations of the future have consequences here and now. Imagine that everyone believed that the U.S. would be broke in 100 years. Now, what’s that going to do to prices for T-bills with a maturity of 100 years? Not that there are any, but please play along.

Of course, they’ll be next to worthless. Now, what about 20 year obligations? The ones that typically are rolled over. Well, looking ahead, the fifth rollover will fail, which means that nobody is going to offer much on the fourth, and so on and so forth, and the expectations reverberate right back to here and now.

What happens to beachfront real estate price when it becomes evident that sea levels are rising? Of course. The price drops to the equivalent rental over a twenty year span, or however long it is expected to be before the encroaching sea claims the property.

And football? Already we see kids dying of heat stroke in training and I wouldn’t be surprised to learn also during games. Football is impossible when the temperature goes too high, and it’s impossibly dangerous at less drastic temperatures. Yes, there’s a threat to football.

This is an excellent post.

481 blueraven  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:21:58pm

re: #383 Bagua


So here are your own words

MMS roll

“Documented, discussed and the regulator made the decision to approve the steps that led to the blow-out killing those men and creating the ecological havoc”

BPs roll

BP made a mistake

Right!

482 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:24:14pm

re: #481 blueraven

So here are your own words

MMS roll

Right!

The word is role. And yes those statements are correct.

483 blueraven  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:25:37pm

re: #482 Bagua

The word is role. And yes those statements are correct.

Well a PIMF for me and shame on you for being a BP apologist.

484 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:26:42pm

re: #449 LudwigVanQuixote

Hoops, what’s your take on liquid thorium reactors? You are a nuke much more than me.

Hi Bro! Read my 468…I know a little..mostly a tech/computer guy.. But I have opened and dumped CD39 valves on Reactors in dry dock..Not that I wanted to go to work at 3am and spend 12 hours opening a valve and going through the whole evolution under the watchful eyes of code 105 Nuclear techs..
Usually..For us..It meant you pissed your boss off…
When I went TDY at Pearl Harbor for 3 years my boss was so pissed off he made sure I spent 3 months every weekend cleaning Johns..Cause I was a ‘highly qualified Nuclear pipe fitter’ on the resume and I was targeted to be fucked cleaning toilets by my boss..To my new boss.. And I couldn’t do a thing about it.. I’ll fix your bitch puked on men’s and woman’s restroom for 90 days bitches to stay at Pearl for 3 years…
You beautiful taxpayers paid for my Masters…
*wink*

485 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:27:22pm

re: #483 blueraven

Well a PIMF for me and shame on you for being a BP apologist.

I’m a BP apologist?

Shame on you for making a baseless charge that ignores dozens of detailed posts I’ve made on this subject. I don’t recall your commenting on a single one.

486 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:28:55pm

re: #383 Bagua

Again: BP was given exceptions by the regulators. As I said, bad regulation is often functionally deregulation; if the regulators simply wave everything through, the system acts in a deregulated fashion.

The regulators failed, and the regulation failed. But the concept of regulation didn’t fail; it proved that we need more stringent regulation, a thorough examination of MMS and especially the ties to industry, and a very thorough look at the response plans of other companies that are so disturbingly close to BPs.

If a gang of criminals plan a bank heist, and a cop fucks up the investigation and is unable to prevent the heist from occurring, it is still the fault of the criminals, and we still need cops.

487 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:31:06pm

re: #486 Obdicut

Again: BP was given exceptions by the regulators. As I said, bad regulation is often functionally deregulation; if the regulators simply wave everything through, the system acts in a deregulated fashion.

The regulators failed, and the regulation failed. But the concept of regulation didn’t fail; it proved that we need more stringent regulation, a thorough examination of MMS and especially the ties to industry, and a very thorough look at the response plans of other companies that are so disturbingly close to BPs.

If a gang of criminals plan a bank heist, and a cop fucks up the investigation and is unable to prevent the heist from occurring, it is still the fault of the criminals, and we still need cops.

And we need to learn to be a little more patient. If it takes six months for the MMS to thoroughly review and approve each well that the oil companies want to drill, then let it take six months. Companies like BP will get used to the new regulations. They put up with them when they drill in other countries.

488 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:31:25pm

re: #484 HoosierHoops

Hi Bro! Read my 468…I know a little..mostly a tech/computer guy.. But I have opened and dumped CD39 valves on Reactors in dry dock..Not that I wanted to go to work at 3am and spend 12 hours opening a valve and going through the whole evolution under the watchful eyes of code 105 Nuclear techs..
Usually..For us..It meant you pissed your boss off…
When I went TDY at Pearl Harbor for 3 years my boss was so pissed off he made sure I spent 3 months every weekend cleaning Johns..Cause I was a ‘highly qualified Nuclear pipe fitter’ on the resume and I was targeted to be fucked cleaning toilets by my boss..To my new boss.. And I couldn’t do a thing about it.. I’ll fix your bitch puked on men’s and woman’s restroom for 90 days bitches to stay at Pearl for 3 years…
You beautiful taxpayers paid for my Masters…
*wink*

Apparently, the LFTR design wasn’t attractive back in the 60’s and 70’s because it doesn’t produce plutonium for future weapon use as a by-product, and now everyone’s forgotten about it.

What a shame…it looks like an elegant design that can use currently nuclear waste and the thorium that coal miners currently throw away to produce incredibly clean energy…

489 blueraven  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:31:50pm

re: #485 Bagua

I’m a BP apologist?

Shame on you for making a baseless charge that ignores dozens of detailed posts I’ve made on this subject. I don’t recall your commenting on a single one.

Well when you blame regulators for killing people and screwing up the environment, yet BP just made a mistake??

WTF should people conclude from that?

490 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:32:19pm

re: #488 Aceofwhat?

What a shame…it looks like an elegant design that can use currently existing nuclear waste and the thorium that coal miners currently throw away to produce incredibly clean energy…

pimf

491 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:32:59pm

re: #486 Obdicut

Again: BP was given exceptions by the regulators. As I said, bad regulation is often functionally deregulation; if the regulators simply wave everything through, the system acts in a deregulated fashion.

The regulators failed, and the regulation failed. But the concept of regulation didn’t fail; it proved that we need more stringent regulation, a thorough examination of MMS and especially the ties to industry, and a very thorough look at the response plans of other companies that are so disturbingly close to BPs.

If a gang of criminals plan a bank heist, and a cop fucks up the investigation and is unable to prevent the heist from occurring, it is still the fault of the criminals, and we still need cops.

What you are missing is that the regulations were there and the regulator oversaw the process. It was not a lack of regulation but rather a failure to properly regulate. People at the MMS screwed up just as people at BP did. It took both of them to result in this failure. BP could not have made the fatal mistake without approval from the MMS. This is all documented.

492 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:34:40pm

re: #491 Bagua

What you are missing is that the regulations were there and the regulator oversaw the process. It was not a lack of regulation but rather a failure to properly regulate.

How am I overlooking that when that is exactly what I said, Bagua?

493 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:34:55pm

re: #489 blueraven

Well when you blame regulators for killing people and screwing up the environment, yet BP just made a mistake??

WTF should people conclude from that?

You are reading it that way and putting that spin on it. I have been scathing in my criticism of BP since the blow-out first happened.

494 Boogberg  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:34:55pm

re: #477 Aceofwhat?

We in Florida are yawning at the weather on the east coast right now…

Yeah really! My heart bleeds…Not! :D

495 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:35:25pm

re: #488 Aceofwhat?

Wouldn’t that be painful, if it turned out we’d dismissed a brilliant, more sustainable design because it didn’t help us with our cold war escalation? Short term thinking bites our ass off yet again.

496 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:35:34pm

re: #492 Obdicut

How am I overlooking that when that is exactly what I said, Bagua?

Then why are you taking issue with me?

497 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:36:21pm

re: #486 Obdicut

Again: BP was given exceptions by the regulators. As I said, bad regulation is often functionally deregulation; if the regulators simply wave everything through, the system acts in a deregulated fashion.

The regulators failed, and the regulation failed. But the concept of regulation didn’t fail; it proved that we need more stringent regulation, a thorough examination of MMS and especially the ties to industry, and a very thorough look at the response plans of other companies that are so disturbingly close to BPs.

If a gang of criminals plan a bank heist, and a cop fucks up the investigation and is unable to prevent the heist from occurring, it is still the fault of the criminals, and we still need cops.

Bagua doesn’t see MMS as the Cops, he sees them as a babysitter. An irresponsible who handed little innocent BP a pair of scissors and told him to run full speed at America’s crotch.

498 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:36:43pm

re: #491 Bagua

What you are missing is that the regulations were there and the regulator oversaw the process. It was not a lack of regulation but rather a failure to properly regulate. People at the MMS screwed up just as people at BP did. It took both of them to result in this failure. BP could not have made the fatal mistake without approval from the MMS. This is all documented.

According to some of the first-hand accounts, BP flagrantly disregarded the regulations and rushed certain processes (like the cementing) because they were behind schedule. Regulators can’t stop people from disregarding them if they do it the minute their back is turned.

If fraud and conscious violation of regulation on the part of BP is proven, you’ll need to send a box of chocolates and a nice note to the MMS. Likewise, if BP is exonerated, I’ll show my sorrow for doubting them by buying their gas again.

499 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:37:00pm

re: #491 Bagua

What you are missing is that the regulations were there and the regulator oversaw the process. It was not a lack of regulation but rather a failure to properly regulate. People at the MMS screwed up just as people at BP did. It took both of them to result in this failure. BP could not have made the fatal mistake without approval from the MMS. This is all documented.

So basically the MMS approved the rig and the drilling procedure, therefore they are at fault. Sure, in the big picture. This view then supports the moratorium until the entire regulatory system is reviewed and fixed.

I keep going back to what happened on the rig that caused the explosion. Wasn’t there an argument between the people on the rig about how to proceed? Was an MMS guy involved in the argument?

500 darthstar  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:38:38pm

re: #499 Stanley Sea

So basically the MMS approved the rig and the drilling procedure, therefore they are at fault. Sure, in the big picture. This view then supports the moratorium until the entire regulatory system is reviewed and fixed.

I keep going back to what happened on the rig that caused the explosion. Wasn’t there an argument between the people on the rig about how to proceed? Was an MMS guy involved in the argument?

California DMV approved my driver’s license…I blame them for my speeding tickets.

Hey! This can work!

501 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:39:02pm

re: #500 darthstar

California DMV approved my driver’s license…I blame them for my speeding tickets.

Hey! This can work!

Exactly.

502 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:40:15pm

re: #496 Bagua

Then why are you taking issue with me?

Because my point is that you can’t say the regulations were in place, when the regulations were being bypassed. If a rule is always broken, it isn’t actually a rule. It’s like saying that no one speeds because we have a law against speeding.

In addition, you keep placing the blame on MMS equally along with BP, while ignoring that the mistake was one of BPs making. MMS allowed the exceptions and waivers that BP asked for.

It is a failure of regulation that became effectively deregulation. That is my point. I might as well ask you why you take issue with that, as you have.

503 windsagio  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:40:51pm

re: #499 Stanley Sea

I was trying to stay away, but damn, well said!

504 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:41:15pm

re: #497 goddamnedfrank

Bagua doesn’t see MMS as the Cops, he sees them as a babysitter. An irresponsible who handed little innocent BP a pair of scissors and told him to run full speed at America’s crotch.

Funny how you have had nothing but approval of my take on this from the start. Now you are making up some foolishness to discredit me? “Cops”, “Babysitter”, “Scissors” & “Crotch?” I thought you were a forensic scientist. What is more important here, facts, or a narrative to blame a certain political party?

505 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:41:30pm

re: #495 Obdicut

Wouldn’t that be painful, if it turned out we’d dismissed a brilliant, more sustainable design because it didn’t help us with our cold war escalation? Short term thinking bites our ass off yet again.

Yep. Sharp cramping comes to mind.

506 ryannon  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:45:34pm

re: #385 Aceofwhat?

Huh? That article discussed a pebble-bed design in South Africa, unfortunately one I hear they’ve recently abandoned.

I’m talking about Liquid Fuel Thorium Reactors.

quick summary:

1) You start with a fluoride salt. In this reactor it will be heated so much that it melts.
2) You dissolve thorium fluoride in the liquid salt.
3) Thorium-232 absobs neutrons and turns ino Uranium-233.
4) The Uranium-233 fissions and produces heat plus more neutrons.


Advantages include:

1) There is no pressure – unlike traditional nuclear reactors which contain high pressue steam. So the reactor cannot explode.
2) The fuel does not need to be shaped into pellets
3) The reactor can add fuel and remove waste at any time
4) There are no weapon-grade materials involved
5) Thorium is abundant and most of it is used up in the reaction
6) The fission products are relatively benign and short-lived compared to those of a traditional reactor.

If anyone has the interest plus an hour of so of his or her life to spare, here’s a TedTalk given at Google headquarters in 2009. All you ever wanted to know about Liquid Salt Thorium Reactors - but were too embarrassed to ask:

Ya, mon!

507 blueraven  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:45:57pm

re: #493 Bagua

You are reading it that way and putting that spin on it. I have been scathing in my criticism of BP since the blow-out first happened.

How am I spinning it? Those were your words I quoted.

508 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:46:05pm

re: #488 Aceofwhat?

Apparently, the LFTR design wasn’t attractive back in the 60’s and 70’s because it doesn’t produce plutonium for future weapon use as a by-product, and now everyone’s forgotten about it.

What a shame…it looks like an elegant design that can use currently nuclear waste and the thorium that coal miners currently throw away to produce incredibly clean energy…

Uh ho..
So really the design issues comes from the primary coil.. The source in someways doesn’t matter…Generally containing the source is the least of the safety issues..( Well unless you are a Russian turning off the cooling water and turning up the reactor at 3am)
The issue is the primary coil…Primaries transfer heat to the secondary coil.
Primaries are hot..Secondaries are just plain old steam
why do you fill a primary coil with pure..And I mean effen pure water?
This is the water flashed to steam and is hot. the smallest impurity will cause a hot spot and a leak..A primary coil leak is the disaster…

509 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:47:43pm

re: #499 Stanley Sea

So basically the MMS approved the rig and the drilling procedure, therefore they are at fault. Sure, in the big picture. This view then supports the moratorium until the entire regulatory system is reviewed and fixed.

I keep going back to what happened on the rig that caused the explosion. Wasn’t there an argument between the people on the rig about how to proceed? Was an MMS guy involved in the argument?

Yes, that is what the record shows. Of course the one actually drilling is causing the actual accident, the regulators deal with paperwork.

The point is, the action proposed by BP had to also be evaluated and approved by the MMS. Thus there is a regulatory failure as well as a primary engineering failure. It was not “deregulated” or done in secret.

The alledged argument was from a mud engineer protesting the action that BP wanted to proceed with and the MMS specifically approved.

Rather than fit the accident into a deregulation narrative, should we not try to understand what actually went wrong?

510 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:50:18pm

re: #509 Bagua

Yes, that is what the record shows. Of course the one actually drilling is causing the actual accident, the regulators deal with paperwork.

The point is, the action proposed by BP had to also be evaluated and approved by the MMS. Thus there is a regulatory failure as well as a primary engineering failure. It was not “deregulated” or done in secret.

The alledged argument was from a mud engineer protesting the action that BP wanted to proceed with and the MMS specifically approved.

Rather than fit the accident into a deregulation narrative, should we not try to understand what actually went wrong?

Ah, we are getting somewhere.

So, are the same procedures approved for all the rigs out there? What is the plan to change these approved procedures?

511 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:50:24pm

re: #509 Bagua

Rather than fit the accident into a deregulation narrative, should we not try to understand what actually went wrong?

I think you’re getting hung up on the word ‘deregulation’, rather than the concept of deregulation. When regulators bypass regulations and grant every exception asked for, it’s functional deregulation. You can say that you have regulations, but if none are enforced, you do not have regulation.

Regulation is an action, not just a bunch of rules on paper. This accident, among other things, showed us that we currently largely have a functionally deregulated system. We need to increase the enforcement of regulations at MMS.

In addition, you are making a very, very strong case for the moratorium.

512 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:50:34pm

re: #507 blueraven

How am I spinning it? Those were your words I quoted.

You are trying to make it sound like I blame only the regulator for signing off on the deed.

513 Pamela Gellar [sic(k)]  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:52:27pm

re: #249 LudwigVanQuixote

Brilliant post. Did you see the crap Savage wrote to you today?

Nope. Didn’t see it, don’t give a shit. They spew hate every day.

I presume they’re delighted to have the chance to quote posters here calling me a whore— just as those here who do that shit do it in part because they know their spittle-flecked ravings will immediately wind up on the hate sites, no matter how quickly Charles deletes them here.

That’s what the haters here and there do, and you can bet your bottom it’s deliberate.

514 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:54:54pm

re: #508 HoosierHoops


The issue is the primary coil…Primaries transfer heat to the secondary coil.
Primaries are hot..Secondaries are just plain old steam
why do you fill a primary coil with pure..And I mean effen pure water?
This is the water flashed to steam and is hot. the smallest impurity will cause a hot spot and a leak..A primary coil leak is the disaster…

You don’t. You fill the primary coil with a liquid fluoride salt (molten) which, in addition to being a fantastic heat conductor with a very high boiling point, has the wonderful property whereby overheating it expands the salt past criticality.

Negative feedback = awesome built-in safety.

Does that make sense?

515 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 5:59:05pm

re: #511 Obdicut

I think you’re getting hung up on the word ‘deregulation’, rather than the concept of deregulation. When regulators bypass regulations and grant every exception asked for, it’s functional deregulation. You can say that you have regulations, but if none are enforced, you do not have regulation.

Regulation is an action, not just a bunch of rules on paper. This accident, among other things, showed us that we currently largely have a functionally deregulated system. We need to increase the enforcement of regulations at MMS.

In addition, you are making a very, very strong case for the moratorium.

Not hung up at all. I have a clear picture of what went wrong, it was not a lack of regulation or deregulation, it was a bad decision by both BP and the regulator who looked in detail at the well and still approved the fatal actions. There are other areas related to drilling that I believe are under-regulated and do slip below the radar, but in this particular blow-out that was not a factor.

Now as to why the regulator also screwed up is a subject with many factors. The MMS has, apparently, been little more than a rubber stamp for several decades. Why this particular regulatory failure occurred has yet to be established. But trying to blame the republicans or the democrats is unwarranted as it appears they both had a hand over the decades. More likely the blame is the individuals who made the mistake, just as it was the BP engineers who proposed the mistake.

516 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:00:11pm

re: #508 HoosierHoops

here, check out the main points at the page i just made…

littlegreenfootballs.com

517 ryannon  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:01:05pm

re: #451 Bagua

What short cuts exactly? How did this occur? Are you saying the MMS was unaware of what was done and did not approve it?

You haven’t a clue.

Holy Christ, you’ve got the Obsessional Down-Dingers on your ass now.

518 Kevitivity  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:01:54pm

I just hope we can utilize a free market solution rather than “one size fits all”, top-down government regulation…

519 HoosierHoops  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:02:10pm

re: #514 Aceofwhat?

You don’t. You fill the primary coil with a liquid fluoride salt (molten) which, in addition to being a fantastic heat conductor with a very high boiling point, has the wonderful property whereby overheating it expands the salt past criticality.

Negative feedback = awesome built-in safety.

Does that make sense?

I have favorite’d your post..I need to read up on that…The Chemical properties of Salt in a primary coil are beyond me..

520 Cheechako  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:03:45pm

Here’s an article from Wikipedia for anyone interested in preventing such accident such as the BP oil spill:

The Swiss Cheese Model

Models of accident causation are used for the risk analysis and risk management of human systems. Since the 1990s they have gained widespread acceptance and use in healthcare, in the aviation safety industry, and in emergency service organizations. Many of them focus on so-called the cumulative act effects.

James Reason hypothesizes that most accidents can be traced to one or more of four levels of failure: Organizational influences, unsafe supervision, preconditions for unsafe acts, and the unsafe acts themselves. In this model, an organization’s defences against failure are modelled as a series of barriers, with individual weaknesses in individual parts of the system, and are continually varying in size and position. The system as a whole produces failures when all individual barrier weaknesses align, permitting “a trajectory of accident opportunity”, so that a hazard passes through all of the holes in all of the defenses, leading to a failure.[1][2] The model includes, in the causal sequence of human failures that leads to an accident or an error, both active failures and latent failures. The former concept of active failures encompasses the unsafe acts that can be directly linked to an accident, such as (in the case of aircraft accidents) pilot errors. The latter concept of latent failures is particularly useful in the process of aircraft accident investigation, since it encourages the study of contributory factors in the system that may have lain dormant for a long time (days, weeks, or months) until they finally contributed to the accident. Latent failures span the first three levels of failure in Reason’s model. Preconditions for unsafe acts include fatigued air crew or improper communications practices. Unsafe supervision encompasses such things as, for example, two inexperienced pilots being paired together and sent on a flight into known adverse weather at night. Organizational influences encompass such things as reduction in expenditure on pilot training in times of financial austerity.[2][3]

The same analyses and models apply in the field of healthcare, and many researchers have provided descriptive summaries, anecdotes, and analyses of Reason’s work in the field. For example, a latent failure could be the similar packaging of two different prescription drugs that are then stored close to each other in a pharmacy. Such a failure would be a contributory factor in the administration of the wrong drug to a patient. Such research has led to the realization that medical error can be the result of “system flaws, not character flaws”, and that individual greed, ignorance, malice, or laziness are not the only causes of error.[4]

What happened in the Gulf was the cumulative effect of organizational influences, unsafe supervision, preconditions for unsafe acts, and the unsafe acts all lined up, i.e. all the holes in a piece of Swiss cheese were in perfect alignment.

521 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:05:13pm

re: #519 HoosierHoops

I have favorite’d your post..I need to read up on that…The Chemical properties of Salt in a primary coil are beyond me..

no problemo. i have a few Pages on the topic as well, just some exploratory links.

522 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:11:10pm

re: #511 Obdicut


Regulation is an action, not just a bunch of rules on paper. This accident, among other things, showed us that we currently largely have a functionally deregulated system. We need to increase the enforcement of regulations at MMS.

In addition, you are making a very, very strong case for the moratorium.

No it does not. You are jumping to that conclusion because it sounds right. In fact, every step of the drilling procedure was regulated in detail right down to the fatal error. It was not a lack of oversight, rather a failure of oversight. Had the blow out been caused by something unregulated or miss-regulated then I would cite that.

I read a report that one of the reforms Obama was proposing in the early days was to effectively sidestep the regulators and require certification from independent industry experts who were not regulators. This would be a sensible move as one of the lessons of this particular accident was that we can not simply trust the drilling industry to propose best practices (obviously), nor can we rely on bureaucrats/regulators alone.

We need an approach that would have prevented this specific accident and one that accepts that we put too much trust in both the industry and the regulators.

523 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:13:12pm

re: #517 ryannon

Holy Christ, you’ve got the Obsessional Down-Dingers on your ass now.

Something is going on to be sure. I’ve been writing about this oil spill in detail for months. All of the sudden my posts are offensive because I won’t pin the blame on a scapegoat?

524 Cheechako  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:13:54pm
525 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:15:01pm

re: #523 Bagua

Something is going on to be sure. I’ve been writing about this oil spill in detail for months. All of the sudden my posts are offensive because I won’t pin the blame on a scapegoat?

Who’s the scapegoat?

526 ryannon  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:15:44pm

re: #523 Bagua

Something is going on to be sure. I’ve been writing about this oil spill in detail for months. All of the sudden my posts are offensive because I won’t pin the blame on a scapegoat?

Um…I think some people are seriously starting to lose it.

527 ryannon  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:17:11pm

From one devolution to another: off to learn about The Devolution of PJ Media.

528 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:17:17pm

re: #526 ryannon

Um…I think some people are seriously starting to lose it.

Apparently. I’m posting about the same issue I’ve been on about for months. Points I’ve made repeatedly, yet today they are offensive.

529 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:18:48pm

re: #525 Stanley Sea

Who’s the scapegoat?

530 Cheechako  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:19:24pm

re: #528 Bagua

Please read the second article I posted about the Swiss cheese model I posted above. I think it will bring a lot of your thoughts into clear focus.

531 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:21:03pm

re: #27 Spare O’Lake

Hopefully the climate scientists will now be able to get their noses back to the grindstone and continue their vital research. And maybe they will allow the system to be a bit more transparent so the public can more easily be educated.

Dude, it couldn’t have been any more transparent. Seriously.

532 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:24:30pm

re: #518 Kevitivity

I just hope we can utilize a free market solution rather than “one size fits all”, top-down government regulation…

also, too

533 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:26:40pm

re: #525 Stanley Sea

Who’s the scapegoat?

GOP, and “deregulation.”

I made the point that this accident also required a regulatory failure to occur. The regulators were controlled by both republicans and democrats, and in this particular case specifically approved the fatal acts. Thus we are looking at a regulator failing to regulate a driller failing to propose safe procedures.

Thus we need to address, honestly and without politics, the regulatory failure that directly permitted the accident. This does not absolve the BP crew from making the actual mistake by any means. Rather is shows that we need more than just regulators and regulations as they also failed.

Are you following me now? If it was a case of something unregulated, something left to BP’s discretion entirely, then I would be pointing out a lack of regulation. That did not occur with this accident by all appearances.

534 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:29:11pm

re: #530 Cheechako

Please read the second article I posted about the Swiss cheese model I posted above. I think it will bring a lot of your thoughts into clear focus.

Thanks, it looks interesting.

535 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:33:13pm

re: #520 Cheechako

Here’s an article from Wikipedia for anyone interested in preventing such accident such as the BP oil spill:

The Swiss Cheese Model

What happened in the Gulf was the cumulative effect of organizational influences, unsafe supervision, preconditions for unsafe acts, and the unsafe acts all lined up, i.e. all the holes in a piece of Swiss cheese were in perfect alignment.

Yes, exactly. And the whole series was needed to result in the final act.

536 tradewind  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:33:17pm

re: #11 ralphieboy
Global warming’s not the only thing he thought his position entitled him to embrace without consequences.//

537 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:34:50pm

re: #533 Bagua

Totally following you now. I really think there was point where your original post was not clear and led, at least me, down the MMS is at fault path. Personally, I put more blame on BP and their management that made the decision that caused the blowout on the rig.

I understand the dilemma of the moratorium, but the way it looks with what you’ve posted, it is absolutely needed. I’m assuming all the other rigs have been approved for the same system of drilling no different than BP.

538 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:50:23pm

re: #537 Stanley Sea

Totally following you now. I really think there was point where your original post was not clear and led, at least me, down the MMS is at fault path. Personally, I put more blame on BP and their management that made the decision that caused the blowout on the rig.

Of course. Had BP not pushed for the answer they got, and did what they did, there would have been no accident. The primary responsibility is always on the operator to do the right thing. Likely BP used this same procedure on several, if not dozens of other wells without incident.

Because we know now, and should have known previously, that even leading engineers proposed practices that turned out to be dangerous, and the regulators approved those practices, we see that there is a flaw in the system. The regulations and regulators themselves did not prevent the disaster, they rubber stamped it.

Whose to blame exactly in this? Many over several decades, but also the guy(s) in the MMS who said yes instead of no. Overconfidence was likely a strong factor as well. (No, Obama/Bush/Clinton, etc. would not have made the actual decision, responsible staff at the MMS would make the call regardless of the party in power.)

I understand the dilemma of the moratorium, but the way it looks with what you’ve posted, it is absolutely needed. I’m assuming all the other rigs have been approved for the same system of drilling no different than BP.

But this is not correct. The faulty plan is not duplicated on other rigs, though it may have been so on other BP jobs. The engineers I’ve spoken to were all shocked by the procedures and considered them unsafe. We could easily prevent all of the drilling from doing the same thing. (And indeed, BP will never do it that way again as they are not suicidal.)

The MMS could absolutely rule-out this particular failure, and add another measure such as a second stack of sheer-rams that would absolutely have prevented this accident and allowed for a quick shut off.

539 Stanley Sea  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:54:46pm

re: #538 Bagua

thanks, gotta jet

540 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 7:08:00pm

re: #538 Bagua

But this is not correct. The faulty plan is not duplicated on other rigs, though it may have been so on other BP jobs. The engineers I’ve spoken to were all shocked by the procedures and considered them unsafe. We could easily prevent all of the drilling from doing the same thing. (And indeed, BP will never do it that way again as they are not suicidal.)

The MMS could absolutely rule-out this particular failure, and add another measure such as a second stack of sheer-rams that would absolutely have prevented this accident and allowed for a quick shut off.

I’m quoting this part because it absolutely matches what I’ve heard, as well.
Absolutely.

541 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 7:16:21pm

re: #537 Stanley Sea

. .. I’m assuming all the other rigs have been approved for the same system of drilling no different than BP.

This is not correct.
Each drilling job is its own thing, with different formations, different depths, different drilling plans, everything.

Within a week after the disaster, my husband had a good idea of what had happened and why, and he was appalled, appalled, at the decisions BP made. He has drilled approx 250-300 wells; and has never once done things that way.

542 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 7:18:10pm

re: #535 Bagua

Yes, exactly. And the whole series was needed to result in the final act.

I see someone upthread claimed that you did just enough reading to figure out how to get in the right “talking points” (as if the moratorium isn’t itself nothing more than a “talking point”).

I know from reading what you wrote that you looked into this thing very carefully, and I for one appreciate the time you took to research this and your attempts to bring actual real facts to the readers here at LGF.

543 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 7:21:14pm

re: #402 Aceofwhat?

We don’t need to have this debate again. I prefer to let the authors make those conclusions; if they haven’t, it means they can’t (at least not within a margin of error too large to make the conclusion helpful).

It seems…presumptuous…to draw such precise conclusions that the authors won’t.

Anyway, let’s talk about LFT reactors. Do we have a fantastic solution just waiting for us to rediscover it or what?

What, because I can’t do the math? I gave an error bar greater than 16%

Tell you what, please for the love of G-d, read those papers and do your own estimates.

544 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 7:23:26pm

re: #542 reine.de.tout

That you rein.de.tout, much obliged. Funny how I’ve been posting factual analysis of this accident for months, all of the sudden my observations are regarded as objectionable?

545 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 7:39:11pm

re: #541 reine.de.tout

I think the concern being stated is that given that BP was given all these exceptions to the regulations, we’d be very interested in finding out which other companies have also been given masses of exceptions.

546 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 7:44:13pm

re: #533 Bagua

Rather is shows that we need more than just regulators and regulations as they also failed.

Not necessarily. It could just mean we need to improve the regulators and regulations, given that they shouldn’t have granted BP exception after exception.
re: #544 Bagua

That you rein.de.tout, much obliged. Funny how I’ve been posting factual analysis of this accident for months, all of the sudden my observations are regarded as objectionable?

It’s not black and white. You have given great factual analysis for months, and you usually right place blame apolitically on BP. However, it is also true that the GOP has pushed for, and achieved, deregulation in general, and especially with regards to industry. This accident shows the dangers of the lack of good regulation; it likewise shows the dangers of deregulation, since the number of exceptions BP was given amounted to deregulation.

You continue to ignore what I mean by the lack of strong regulation functioning as effective deregulation, so I assume you’re never actually going to try to comprehend it, which is a pity.

The MMS could absolutely rule-out this particular failure, and add another measure such as a second stack of sheer-rams that would absolutely have prevented this accident and allowed for a quick shut off.

Ruling out this particular failure would be incredibly stupid. Again: Even the best plans cannot protect against failure. More than anything else, this plan has shown that the response plans have been largely ineffective, and we need much better response plans.

Ruling out this failure would be a monumentally bad idea.

547 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 7:47:15pm

re: #545 Obdicut

I think the concern being stated is that given that BP was given all these exceptions to the regulations, we’d be very interested in finding out which other companies have also been given masses of exceptions.

Ah.
Again, my husband has drilled in the range of 250-300 wells. The big players are companies like BP, Shell,etc. Shell does not play the sorts of games BP played. BP has been known far and wide for NOT being a safe company. My husband has never worked a well where the company man overruled the objections and concerns of EVERYONE else there, the experts, and proceeded with something like what BP did.

I’m not saying exceptions were never granted; what I am saying is that it is in a company’s best interest to make a well with NO INCIDENTS whatsoever; the price otherwise, in terms of lives lost or ruined and in terms of money, is just too high, as we’ve seen with what BP is having to pay now.

548 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 7:57:30pm

re: #547 reine.de.tout

I’m not saying exceptions were never granted; what I am saying is that it is in a company’s best interest to make a well with NO INCIDENTS whatsoever; the price otherwise, in terms of lives lost or ruined and in terms of money, is just too high, as we’ve seen with what BP is having to pay now.

But that’s just it, Reine: Even if the other companies have historically been well-run, BP and this accident has shown that we can’t depend upon those best interests to keep this sort of accident from happening. Another company could be bought by the same sort of people running BP, or a particular rig could be run by people with that mentality. After all, Massey mine shouldn’t have happened, too— it’s not in their best interests. Nor should have Centralia. Nor should have many other industrial disasters.

How many disasters of this scale could we handle in a century? Right now, we can handle zero.

And even if the other companies really do their best, all the time, there is still the chance of a perfect storm of human and equipment error that would produce another catastrophe. The industry’s testimony about the physical response to this was that, basically, BP really was doing the best that could be done in response— that means we wouldn’t even be prepared for a much lesser catastrophe.

The main thing I am arguing here is that placing blame on the MMS makes it seem as though even though the regulators were on the case and zealous, the regulation failed. It’s not true; the regulators were overburdened with an obvious history of waving through BPs plans with exceptions. To me, that indicates that the regulations need tightening, and the agency needs reformation— and that all agencies dealing with stuff of such catastrophic import likewise need to be examined to see if they can actually do their job, because their jobs are important. Incredibly important.

549 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 7:58:33pm

re: #411 LudwigVanQuixote

I understand that the Japanese have a huge project going on with pursuing this.

Being the pessimist that I am, I repeat my earlier point. We let the Japanese and then others build our TVs and coffee makers. This is next.

550 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 8:02:20pm

re: #546 Obdicut

Ruling out this particular failure would be incredibly stupid. Again: Even the best plans cannot protect against failure. More than anything else, this plan has shown that the response plans have been largely ineffective, and we need much better response plans.

Ruling out this failure would be a monumentally bad idea.

Your first two paragraphs I agree are important to consider. Note that Obama may be thinking along similar lines in proposing the regulators make use of independent experts, and not solely on their bureaucracy.

And of course we discovered failing in the response that are glaring and need addressing.

But I don’t get why you say “ruling out this failure” would be a bad idea? That makes no sense. Ruling out the practices that were permitted would have prevented this blow-out, even with the 9 other mistakes and the faulty BOP. It was a simple matter of physics, don’t displace the column of heavy mud which is holding back a reservoir back through well understood hydrostatic pressure with lighter seawater until redundant plugs are set.

This will undoubtedly become a rule written in stone for all future wells. The well would not have blown had they not done this. I can’t imagine BP or anyone even considering doing otherwise in light of what transpired. Certainly not in a well that was out of control for months and losing circulation. Regardless, we simply eliminate what proved reckless by regulatory mandate. That would seem an obvious next step.

An interim measure of adding another set of sheer rams would also seem an obvious interim solution, as once a blow-out occurs only the rams can shut it off. It is quite likely they hit a tool joint, though it is possible they simply couldn’t cut the pipe. Adding another set distance away would remove this point of failure in the device we count on as the “failsafe.”

551 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 8:11:45pm

re: #550 Bagua

Your first two paragraphs I agree are important to consider. Note that Obama may be thinking along similar lines in proposing the regulators make use of independent experts, and not solely on their bureaucracy.

I have no idea what relying solely on a bureaurcacy would even mean, but yes, independent experts, paid by the government and forbidden from entering into industry after or before service, would be ideal.

But I don’t get why you say “ruling out this failure” would be a bad idea? That makes no sense. Ruling out the practices that were permitted would have prevented this blow-out, even with the 9 other mistakes and the faulty BOP.

Every individual mistake for any accident is avoidable in retrospect. You could say that about any situation, at any time. Just don’t put that last straw on the camel’s back.

Regardless, we simply eliminate what proved reckless by regulatory mandate. That would seem an obvious next step.

Rather, we don’t grant the many, many exceptions that we granted from regulation.

An interim measure of adding another set of sheer rams would also seem an obvious interim solution, as once a blow-out occurs only the rams can shut it off. It is quite likely they hit a tool joint, though it is possible they simply couldn’t cut the pipe. Adding another set distance away would remove this point of failure in the device we count on as the “failsafe.”

In any complex system, there is no level of redundancy that can account for all types of failure without making the cost of the system unbearable. You always have to have a plan for failure. The companies have revealed that this current cleanup plan is actually the best plan we have. That is unacceptable.

No set of regulations, practices, or standards, can make any complex practice completely safe. Life is not so orderly.

You should read Better, by Atul Gawande.

552 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 8:15:03pm

re: #548 Obdicut

But that’s just it, Reine: Even if the other companies have historically been well-run, BP and this accident has shown that we can’t depend upon those best interests to keep this sort of accident from happening. Another company could be bought by the same sort of people running BP, or a particular rig could be run by people with that mentality. After all, Massey mine shouldn’t have happened, too— it’s not in their best interests. Nor should have Centralia. Nor should have many other industrial disasters.

How many disasters of this scale could we handle in a century? Right now, we can handle zero.

And even if the other companies really do their best, all the time, there is still the chance of a perfect storm of human and equipment error that would produce another catastrophe. The industry’s testimony about the physical response to this was that, basically, BP really was doing the best that could be done in response— that means we wouldn’t even be prepared for a much lesser catastrophe.

The main thing I am arguing here is that placing blame on the MMS makes it seem as though even though the regulators were on the case and zealous, the regulation failed. It’s not true; the regulators were overburdened with an obvious history of waving through BPs plans with exceptions. To me, that indicates that the regulations need tightening, and the agency needs reformation— and that all agencies dealing with stuff of such catastrophic import likewise need to be examined to see if they can actually do their job, because their jobs are important. Incredibly important.


Right, exactly. Recognizing that there was also regulatory failure is an important step to achieving effective oversight. But we also can’t place too much faith in them as they failed. Thus in this case it wasn’t an absence of regulation, rather it was a lapse of regulation. (I can point to other areas were there is a lack of regulation, this just wasn’t one of them.)

We have to always assume that a future regulator, under any party, is also fallible just as individual industry groups will be fallible. Thus we simply rule out the risky procedures and improve the regulatory process by red flagging the regulators as well. I quite like the proposal of adding a layer of inspection and compliance that is verified by independent contractor/experts who would be required to sign off on these matters. Thus we add another layer of redundancy should both industry and the regulator fumble in the future.

553 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 8:21:51pm

re: #552 Bagua

Right, exactly. Recognizing that there was also regulatory failure is an important step to achieving effective oversight. But we also can’t place too much faith in them as they failed. Thus in this case it wasn’t an absence of regulation, rather it was a lapse of regulation. (I can point to other areas were there is a lack of regulation, this just wasn’t one of them.)
.


We can’t place faith in the way regulations are currently working. It says nothing about how we can place faith in regulations in general, any more than BP’s failure means that we can assume that every other company is doing what they were doing.

Thus in this case it wasn’t an absence of regulation, rather it was a lapse of regulation.

It was a lapse of reguliation that equated to an absence of regulation. THe regulatory agency abandoned their duties of regulation and waved exceptions through, so it acted, functionally, as though those regulations did not exist.

I quite like the proposal of adding a layer of inspection and compliance that is verified by independent contractor/experts who would be required to sign off on these matters. Thus we add another layer of redundancy should both industry and the regulator fumble in the future.

That layer is, actually, another regulatory layer.

554 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 8:23:16pm

re: #548 Obdicut

But that’s just it, Reine: Even if the other companies have historically been well-run, BP and this accident has shown that we can’t depend upon those best interests to keep this sort of accident from happening. Another company could be bought by the same sort of people running BP, or a particular rig could be run by people with that mentality. After all, Massey mine shouldn’t have happened, too— it’s not in their best interests. Nor should have Centralia. Nor should have many other industrial disasters.

How many disasters of this scale could we handle in a century? Right now, we can handle zero.

And even if the other companies really do their best, all the time, there is still the chance of a perfect storm of human and equipment error that would produce another catastrophe. The industry’s testimony about the physical response to this was that, basically, BP really was doing the best that could be done in response— that means we wouldn’t even be prepared for a much lesser catastrophe.

The main thing I am arguing here is that placing blame on the MMS makes it seem as though even though the regulators were on the case and zealous, the regulation failed. It’s not true; the regulators were overburdened with an obvious history of waving through BPs plans with exceptions. To me, that indicates that the regulations need tightening, and the agency needs reformation— and that all agencies dealing with stuff of such catastrophic import likewise need to be examined to see if they can actually do their job, because their jobs are important. Incredibly important.

I have no issue with appropriate and SAFE regulations being implemented and enforced. And the MMS needs to be looked at and overhauled.

Your question to me was how many other companies are being given the exceptions? I could not answer that; all I have is decades of historical evidence to rely on, and 3 decades of experience that my husband has to draw on. That’s a lot of experience.

I do, however, have an issue with people in this thread who INSIST on trying to blame Bush and the Republicans for a perceived “soft on MMS” stance, but yell like banshees if we dare to mention that well, yes, but this particular exception was granted under the Obama administration. The final point being that it isn’t the fault of EITHER PRESIDENT. The damned federal bureacracy is so huge, no one person can oversee everything, all the time, and unfortunately, it takes a mess like this to bring to light when an agency has ceased functioning effectively needs to be reviewed and revamped.

555 Bagua  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 8:28:39pm

re: #551 Obdicut

No, risk is always present, even once this one is removed. But this particular one is a big one as the physics of it are basic, don’t remove the column of weight holding back the reservoir until there are redundant plugs set and verified. No rocket science or mystery there. The idea of adding another set of independent experts sounds like a way to keep both the industry and the regulators on their toes.

Sadly we apparently needed this accident before any politicians on any side cottoned on to the weaknesses in the system. Of course we need another layer of something to remedy the situation, but from which fallible group, industry or regulatory? My suggestion is both, and an independent wild card that is free of both political and industry influence. A function similar to professional auditors.

556 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 8:43:10pm

re: #554 reine.de.tout

I have no issue with appropriate and SAFE regulations being implemented and enforced. And the MMS needs to be looked at and overhauled.

Your question to me was how many other companies are being given the exceptions? I could not answer that; all I have is decades of historical evidence to rely on, and 3 decades of experience that my husband has to draw on. That’s a lot of experience.

That isn’t evidence that exceptions weren’t given, but that exceptions didn’t end in disaster.

I do, however, have an issue with people in this thread who INSIST on trying to blame Bush and the Republicans for a perceived “soft on MMS” stance, but yell like banshees if we dare to mention that well, yes, but this particular exception was granted under the Obama administration.

This exception was granted under the Obama administration. The GOP, however, has by far a larger record for pushing for deregulation and supporting deregulation.

The final point being that it isn’t the fault of EITHER PRESIDENT.

Or any president.

The damned federal bureacracy is so huge, no one person can oversee everything, all the time, and unfortunately, it takes a mess like this to bring to light when an agency has ceased functioning effectively needs to be reviewed and revamped.

I don’t think it does take this sort of accident. Many other industries have been hugely improved by the actions of watchdog groups before massive accidents have occurred, or even by (gasp) the work of people in Congress. I don’t accept that things like this have to happen, and I think that we can work to prevent them from happening. More funding for those watchdog groups, for example, would be a very good thing.

557 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 8:45:59pm

re: #555 Bagua

I don’t think we needed this accident, but that’s just semantics. Otherwise, I agree.

Environmental groups do function as independent regulators, but they have their own axe to grind. But a third-party group that could accept and validate complaints by both environmentalists and industry groups whistleblowing on each other, as well as doing their own investigations, would be immensely valuable.

The energy lobby, however, and the GOP, are very likely to block any attempts at serious regulatory reform.

558 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 9:07:24pm

re: #556 Obdicut


That isn’t evidence that exceptions weren’t given, but that exceptions didn’t end in disaster.

Sorry Obdi - that sentence just totally confused me, I can’t figure out what you mean to say.

This exception was granted under the Obama administration. The GOP, however, has by far a larger record for pushing for deregulation and supporting deregulation.

I can’t disagree with that, but I’m just unsure as to how, then, how this is pertinent to this incident or how that makes this incident the fault of Bush (not that YOU are claiming it, just that others have).

I’ll also just say, to finish up here, that I’m very tired of trying to maintain my calm and stay rational on this whole situation, while others seem to get pass when they go off on rants about the eeeveeel Bush and conservatives.

Obama is not evil. Biden is not evil. Bush was not evil. Cheney was not evil.

They are all simply who made (or are making) decisions based on their own political persuasion as to what they believe is best. We may or may not agree with them; but none of them are evil. And it’s just tiresome to keep hearing it (again, not from YOU, but from some others)

559 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 7, 2010 9:32:24pm
Sorry Obdi - that sentence just totally confused me, I can’t figure out what you mean to say.

I mean that the evidence from yourself and your husband is not that exceptions weren’t granted, but that disasters didn’t occur. I’m not saying it’s sheerly luck that they didn’t, obviously other companies have been more responsible, but many accidents may have almost occurred due to underregulation in the past, as well.


I’ll also just say, to finish up here, that I’m very tired of trying to maintain my calm and stay rational on this whole situation, while others seem to get pass when they go off on rants about the eeeveeel Bush and conservatives.

I think ranting on Bush is stupid. I do think, however, that the GOP has been a very, very hostile force towards legitimate environmental concerns for a long time, and that their push for deregulation over decades has been harmful. It is not a ‘conservatives are evil’ meme, but that one particular policy position of the GOP party has always scared the shit out of me. And these days, with the rank anti-science attitude so prevalent, it scares me even more.

The likelihood we will get the regulatory reform we need is low, because I think the GOP (and ‘conservative’ Democrats) will block it.

560 Funky_Gibbon  Thu, Jul 8, 2010 4:10:53am

Sadly many people will continue to believe the lies put about by the Deniers and reported as frontpage headlines in the newspapers. They’ll continue because the investigations and their conclusions are being buried in tiny 2 paragraph articles on page 17 of the newspapers and are being reported on the TV news not as exoneration but as criticism of their ‘lack of openness’.

The Deniers will continue to win the media battle because it’s all they have and like all snake-oil salemen presentation is their strong point. Sadly that the kind of empty-headed thing the media love.

561 mkelly  Thu, Jul 8, 2010 10:41:26am

re: #40 LudwigVanQuixote

“The science has been soundly settled…”

No science was checked in this report.

As Russell is quick to point out, “It is important to note that we offer no opinion on the validity of their scientific work. Such an outcome could only come through the normal processes of scientific debate and not from the examination of e-mails or from a series of interviews about conduct.”

562 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 8, 2010 2:16:43pm

re: #561 mkelly

“The science has been soundly settled…”

No science was checked in this report.

As Russell is quick to point out, “It is important to note that we offer no opinion on the validity of their scientific work. Such an outcome could only come through the normal processes of scientific debate and not from the examination of e-mails or from a series of interviews about conduct.”

But the other four investigations, and specifically the two-part Penn State investigation, did check the science and found absolutely no scientific misconduct on the part of Michael Mann or any of the other climate scientists in this crappy bogus “scandal.”


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