Neo-Confederate History Lessons for Kids

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In neo-Confederate news, the SPLC’s Hatewatch blog takes a look at the Sam Davis Youth Camps sponsored by the Sons of Confederate Veterans, where Southern kids are taught that the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery, and Abraham Lincoln was a racist war criminal.

The camps are heavily indebted to Kirk Lyons, a white supremacist lawyer who led a decade-long effort to recruit hate group members to the SCV (Lyons was at one time a member of the neo-Nazi National Alliance). Lyons, who said in 2000 that his goal is “a majority European-derived society,” serves on the SCV committee that oversees the camps. He has lobbied to have SCV funds dedicated to camp scholarships and his own children have participated in the events.

Also serving on the camp’s oversight committee is Ron G. Wilson, a former SCV commander-in-chief (2002-2004) who once served on the board of Lyons’ legal firm. Working closely with Lyons during his tenure as commander, Wilson appointed racists and anti-Semites to key SCV posts, purged some 300 SCV members and leaders who opposed racism, and worked to turn the SCV into an actively neo-Confederate organization. The Sam Davis Youth Camps, which are programs held in various venues rather than specific physical locations, were inaugurated under Wilson’s leadership.

So what does the SCV teach today’s youth? Campers are exposed to various “truths” about what the SCV calls “the War for Southern Independence” and are given “thoughtful instruction” in a whole host of topics: “Southern history, the War Between the States, the theology of the South during the War, lessons on Southern heroes, examples of great men of the Faith, and for the first year, special programs and sessions for our Southern ladies!”

The first camp of the 2010 season was held in Clifton, Texas, during the third week of June. According to the Waco Tribune-Herald, the campers were taught that the Civil War was not about slavery. “Too many people have bought into that notion,” Texas SCV Commander Ray W. James told the newspaper, “and wrongly exalt then-President Abraham Lincoln as wanting to end slavery.” Lincoln was actually “a bigger racist than I ever knew,” James said of the author of the Emancipation Proclamation.

One of the members of the Sons of Confederate Veterans is well known in the right wing blogosphere; he writes for Pajamas Media, Hot Air, and American Spectator magazine, and he proudly posted this image of his SCV membership card at his blog.

“Gen Nathan B. Forrest,” by the way, was the founder of the Ku Klux Klan. Seems to be an odd person to name a “camp” after. I’m just sayin’.

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488 comments
1 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:16:18pm

Gee a white supremacist hate-Madrasa. Parallels abound.

2 zora  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:21:38pm

i feel sorry for the kids that attended / will attend.

3 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:22:45pm

And this, children, is the cornerstone of the Second Amendment Liberals.

4 disillusioned  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:23:13pm

Sorry but the civil war was not about slavery. The root cause of the civil war was that the Southern States were losing power in the US senate, as more and more States were admitted to the union the more power Southern States lost. The civil war was all about power in government and had little if anything to do with slavery. That the end result was the abolition of slavery is a good thing. But to say it was all about slavery is a misread of history. Anyone that believes the north and Lincoln fought the civil war because they wanted slavery abolished don't understand that the North had indentured servants and was fine with their form of slavery. The revisionist historians want to make the war about slavery when in the end it was only about political power.

5 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:24:08pm

Well, that didn't take long.

6 jaunte  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:24:50pm

re: #4 disillusioned

Political power to do what?

7 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:25:19pm

re: #5 Charles

Well, that didn't take long.

More chum in the water?

8 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:26:18pm

Wow!
That was fast!!!

9 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:27:00pm

re: #4 disillusioned

"War of Northern Aggression?" Come on, you can say it.

10 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:27:09pm

I get very disillusioned when people re-write history to cover their asses.

11 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:27:32pm

re: #6 jaunte

Political power to do what?

Indeed.
Begins with an "S"...
Hmmm.

12 abolitionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:27:35pm

..Year Ending 7/31/10

/Subscription expires soon

13 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:28:39pm

re: #4 disillusioned

Welcome. Tell us more about yourself.

14 disillusioned  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:28:45pm

re: #6 jaunte

Political power to control the Government. The South was an agrarian society versus the north an industrialized society. The south was comfortable the way things were. The North wanted to change to laws of the land towards a more industrial based country. As the South lost power and couldn't get their laws through that protected their way of life they began to secede.

15 disillusioned  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:29:22pm

re: #11 Varek Raith

Sorry but that is revisionist history.

16 disillusioned  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:30:13pm

re: #9 JasonA

Not what I said or meant at all. The civil war was all about politics.

17 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:30:39pm

re: #14 disillusioned

Political power to control the Government. The South was an agrarian society versus the north an industrialized society. The south was comfortable the way things were. The North wanted to change to laws of the land towards a more industrial based country. As the South lost power and couldn't get their laws through that protected their way of life they began to secede.

About a quarter of the southerners around here weren't that comfortable.

18 jaunte  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:31:16pm

re: #14 disillusioned
"Their way of life" which made them a successful agrarian society was slavery.

19 Racer X  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:31:39pm

re: #14 disillusioned

So all those Southern slaves fled to the North just to be slaves in cooler weather?

20 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:31:48pm

Sounds like its time to get my parents to put out that "Southern Slave Owner Murdered by Union Solders Lawn Jockey" I bought from DailyShow.UnionAppreciationMonth/GetOverityoulost185yearsago.com

21 disillusioned  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:32:18pm

re: #15 disillusioned

Sorry that it doesn't match your narrow minded view. Tell me how you think it was about slavery? I can tell you the north had its own indentured servants. The end result of the war was the end of slavery. The beginning of the war had very little if anything to do with slavery.

22 theliel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:32:51pm

re: #18 jaunte

In fact Slaves, as property and capital were worth more than any other asset the US had..combined.

Thus losing slavery would have cost the US, and the South in particular massively.

So yes. it was about states rights. The right of states to own people.

23 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:33:10pm

re: #21 disillusioned

I've yet to see a more appropriate screenname. Good on you.

24 disillusioned  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:33:18pm

re: #19 Racer X

That is not why the war was fought.

25 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:33:40pm

re: #4 disillusioned

Sorry but the civil war was not about slavery. The root cause of the civil war was that the Southern States were losing power in the US senate, as more and more States were admitted to the union the more power Southern States lost. The civil war was all about power in government and had little if anything to do with slavery. That the end result was the abolition of slavery is a good thing. But to say it was all about slavery is a misread of history. Anyone that believes the north and Lincoln fought the civil war because they wanted slavery abolished don't understand that the North had indentured servants and was fine with their form of slavery. The revisionist historians want to make the war about slavery when in the end it was only about political power.

About Political Power and the Southern States refusing to grasp the same lesson many of the people in the GOP seem to have trouble figuring out today....

There is an incredibly THICK LINE between finding that your voting block is no longer large enough to win a majority in the Senate/Elect a president and being under the iron fist of a tyrant.

26 Racer X  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:33:41pm

Look up "Abraham Lincoln" and the origins of the Republican Party.

27 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:33:45pm

re: #21 disillusioned

So by indentured servants you refer to the employed blacks? Nice try.

28 McSpiff  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:34:27pm

re: #24 disillusioned

That is not why the war was fought.

"LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU MY GRAND-PAPPY WAS A GOOD MAN AND WOULD NEVER HAVE FOUGHT FOR SOMETHING EVIL"

There, we get it. Go run along to free republic and argue over who gets to man the cannon at the next re-enactment.

29 abolitionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:34:47pm

re: #16 disillusioned

Not what I said or meant at all. The civil war was all about politics.

To Lincoln, it was about preserving the Union, and slavery was a secondary issue, according to a letter he wrote.

30 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:35:30pm

re: #4 disillusioned

Sorry but the civil war was not about slavery.

goddamn I love the trollcats website. Saves ever so much time.

31 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:35:30pm

re: #4 disillusioned

You are literally too stupid to insult

32 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:35:34pm

re: #29 abolitionist

To Lincoln, it was about preserving the Union, and slavery was a secondary issue, according to a letter he wrote.

Uh huh. He had to preserve the Union because...

33 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:36:38pm

re: #30 iceweasel

goddamn I love the trollcats website. Saves ever so much time.

Outstanding!

34 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:37:16pm

re: #24 disillusioned

This illustrates our position on this issue succinctly.

35 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:37:48pm

re: #30 iceweasel

I like the giant incomprehensible, hastily written brick of text with every single racist talking point packed into it like an overstuffed suitcase, like he's trying to get the high score.

36 McSpiff  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:38:22pm

I'm seriously waiting for one of these dumbasses to try and convince me that slavery was a summer vacation gone horribly horribly wrong.

37 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:38:30pm

re: #28 McSpiff

There, we get it. Go run along to free republic and argue over who gets to man the cannon at the next re-enactment.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh man quote of the fucking day

38 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:39:00pm

This is awful. I have to walk the dog, but I don't want to miss the aria in the death scene. BB Real Fast.

39 Ojoe  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:40:37pm
40 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:40:46pm

re: #16 disillusioned

Not what I said or meant at all. The civil war was all about politics.

probably...the politics of slavery and state's rights were inseparable, no reason to lean one way further than another

41 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:40:49pm

Wowzers.
Weird, this is...

42 The Shadow Do  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:42:51pm

Beginning with the 3/5 rule to pacify the South and extending through Bloody Kansas and the Missouri Compromise one may fairly conclude that slavery was just a wee bone of contention from time to time.

Or it could just be that S Carolina started lobbing canon balls at those damn yankees because they were not given to discussion of the newly minted Republicans insufferable position on horticulture.

Or something or another else. Who knows?

43 cankles McCellulite  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:43:19pm

This declaration of war from Mississippi is quite clear.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery– the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

Just came in to post this. sorry to bother you all.

44 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:43:51pm
45 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:43:56pm

re: #42 The Shadow Do

Beginning with the 3/5 rule to pacify the South and extending through Bloody Kansas and the Missouri Compromise one may fairly conclude that slavery was just a wee bone of contention from time to time.

Or it could just be that S Carolina started lobbing canon balls at those damn yankees because they were not given to discussion of the newly minted Republicans insufferable position on horticulture.

Or something or another else. Who knows?

it's not about slavery!...it's a bout the cotton!

46 cronus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:44:01pm

re: #21 disillusioned

Weird, the Vice President of the Confederacy seemed to think slavery had a lot to do with secession...

Alexander Stephens' Cornerstone Speech

The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution — African slavery as it exists amongst us — the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. (Thomas) Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted.

...

(Jefferson's) ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. ... Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner–stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery — subordination to the superior race — is his natural and normal condition.

47 abolitionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:44:10pm

re: #32 JasonA

Uh huh. He had to preserve the Union because...

Size matters. Many small and some not-so-small states in Europe were occupied in wars at the time. Somewhat fortunate for us.

48 Ojoe  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:44:26pm

Lincoln, the moderate, accomplished what the extremists never could have accomplished.

49 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:45:09pm

Damn it, if he hasn't been banned I think our voice of decent has scampered... that's a shame he was making things so interesting!

50 Gusbenz  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:45:17pm

The Civil War's root cause was slavery. The Southern socioeconomic system was based primarily on the subjection of blacks, whom were the dominate source of production. However, to maintain that Lincoln was fighting for "government of the people, by the people, for the people," couldn't be more untrue. As H.L. Mencken says, "The Union soldiers in that battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves. What was the practical effect of the battle of Gettysburg? What else than the destruction of the old sovereignty of the States, i.e., of the people of the States? The Confederates went into battle free; they came out with their freedom subject to the supervision and veto of the rest of the country—and for nearly twenty years that veto was so effective that they enjoyed scarcely more liberty, in the political sense, than so many convicts in the penitentiary."

51 Ojoe  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:45:28pm

re: #44 Stanley Sea

The words on that page say a lot.

And the website is "Son of the South" . net.

They are not all crazy.

52 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:45:49pm

re: #47 abolitionist

No no no. I was asking what caused the Union to fracture in the first place.

53 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:46:13pm

Another one!

54 The Curmudgeon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:46:39pm

re: #4 disillusioned

Sorry but the civil war was not about slavery. The root cause of the civil war was that the Southern States were losing power in the US senate, as more and more States were admitted to the union the more power Southern States lost.

That was one issue. Until the Compromise of 1850, when California joined the Union, states were admitted in pairs, one North, one South.

Lincoln initially didn't advocate abolition, at least not directly. But he had a long range plan to dilute the South's voting power in the Senate. By insisting that no new states could be "slave states," it was obvious that the South would soon be in a permanent minority, and their way of life was ultimately doomed. There was also the issue of protective tariffs, which disadvantaged agrarian states.

So although the pretext for secession was Lincoln's "no expansion of slavery" commitment, it really meant the eventual end of slavery.

55 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:47:02pm

re: #50 Gusbenz

The Civil War's root cause was slavery. The Southern socioeconomic system was based primarily on the subjection of blacks, whom were the dominate source of production. However, to maintain that Lincoln was fighting for "government of the people, by the people, for the people," couldn't be more untrue. As H.L. Mencken says, "The Union soldiers in that battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves. What was the practical effect of the battle of Gettysburg? What else than the destruction of the old sovereignty of the States, i.e., of the people of the States? The Confederates went into battle free; they came out with their freedom subject to the supervision and veto of the rest of the country—and for nearly twenty years that veto was so effective that they enjoyed scarcely more liberty, in the political sense, than so many convicts in the penitentiary."

Well gee maybe that was because they f***ing attacked representatives of their own government.

I somehow doubt that England would have been so kind to us if we had lost our revoltionary war....

56 jaunte  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:47:15pm

re: #43 cankles McCellulite

Another from South Carolina:

This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

On the 4th day of March next, this party will take possession of the Government. It has announced that the South shall be excluded from the common territory, that the judicial tribunals shall be made sectional, and that a war must be waged against slavery until it shall cease throughout the United States.

The guaranties of the Constitution will then no longer exist; the equal rights of the States will be lost. The slaveholding States will no longer have the power of self-government, or self-protection, and the Federal Government will have become their enemy.
[Link: sunsite.utk.edu...]

57 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:47:44pm

re: #49 jamesfirecat

Damn it, if he hasn't been banned I think our voice of decent has scampered... that's a shame he was making things so interesting!

And he was halfway to taking the Bottom 10 comments for himself. Quitter.

58 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:47:56pm

re: #53 Charles

Another one!

Weird...

59 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:48:22pm

re: #57 JasonA

And he was halfway to taking the Bottom 10 comments for himself. Quitter.

Yeah he should take some lessons about Buck from sticking in there for the long haul....

60 Ojoe  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:48:27pm

re: #52 JasonA

Slavery, the attempted extension of it.

Evil always overplays its hand.

If the brave Union soldier boys had not preserved the union, the USA would not have been there to help stop Hitler.

Only 80 years separate the two conflicts.

Everything you do counts for good or evil, in ways some of which you cannot even imagine.

61 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:48:56pm

Does it strike anyone else as extremely weird that these issues are suddenly "coming up for debate" again, after every sane and reasonable person in America thought they were resolved forever?

62 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:49:40pm

re: #61 Charles

Does it strike anyone else as extremely weird that these issues are suddenly "coming up for debate" again, after every sane and reasonable person in America thought they were resolved forever?

You could say the same thing about Evolution or AGW, it's called "rebunking" I believe...

63 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:49:45pm

re: #50 Gusbenz

; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves.

I was going to take issue with this but I forgot that the Confederacy thought humans with dark skin were beasts.

I mean, it was totally a valiant fight, going to war to ensure that every single Southern Gentleman has the freedom to flog and rape their uppity property to death. I get misty eyed just thinking about it.

BOY FIX ME A MINT JULEP I FANCY A BIT OF THAT BRANCH WATER

64 The Shadow Do  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:49:47pm

re: #50 Gusbenz

Dear Gus, they were fucking traitors who were fortunate to have received the post war reprieve they did.

65 Ojoe  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:49:52pm

re: #61 Charles

I am dismayed in the extreme that they are resurfacing.

66 McSpiff  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:50:28pm

re: #64 The Shadow Do

Dear Gus, they were fucking traitors who were fortunate to have received the post war reprieve they did.

They got to keep the flag! What's up with that?

67 cronus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:50:34pm

re: #50 Gusbenz

The Confederates went into battle free; they came out with their freedom subject to the supervision and veto of the rest of the country—and for nearly twenty years that veto was so effective that they enjoyed scarcely more liberty, in the political sense, than so many convicts in the penitentiary."

Yep, losing a armed, treasonous insurrection is a bitch isn't it?

68 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:50:34pm
69 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:50:52pm

re: #66 McSpiff

They got to keep the flag! What's up with that?

Yeah, even Germany had to give up the swastika.

70 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:51:16pm

re: #61 Charles

Does it strike anyone else as extremely weird that these issues are suddenly "coming up for debate" again, after every sane and reasonable person in America thought they were resolved forever?

no, not at all, proof that not all Americans are sane or reasonable and that the time is ripe to 'secure the truth, once and for all'....lunatics

71 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:52:15pm

re: #69 JasonA

Yeah, even Germany had to give up the swastika.

Say better the Germany is now ashamed of the swastika, you don't see Swastika in the backs of Volkswagons being driven on the autoban do you?

72 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:52:27pm

re: #3 Decatur Deb

And this, children, is the cornerstone of the Second Amendment Liberals.

My primary attitude is "The 2nd Amendment - keeping Church & State separate since 1791" but this is ultimately the same level of disgust. Feh.

73 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:53:03pm

re: #65 Ojoe

I am dismayed in the extreme that they are resurfacing.

well buckle up amigo...these people are everywhere and the net embiggens them

74 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:53:06pm

re: #71 jamesfirecat

Say better the Germany is now ashamed of the swastika, you don't see Swastika in the backs of Volkswagons being driven on the autoban do you?

VOLKSWAGEN!

75 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:53:23pm

re: #50 Gusbenz

"The Union soldiers in that battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves. "

You don't really understand what "slavery" means, do you?

76 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:53:41pm

re: #71 jamesfirecat

Say better the Germany is now ashamed of the swastika, you don't see Swastika in the backs of Volkswagons being driven on the autoban do you?

No, they're actually illegal over there.

77 abolitionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:54:02pm

re: #52 JasonA

No no no. I was asking what caused the Union to fracture in the first place.

I'm not saying slavery was not a factor, especially to the southern plantation owners, and to the (mostly northern) abolitionists. Slavery was very much the foundation of the south's economic power. The contentions were about how that translated to political power at the federal level.

78 jaunte  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:54:07pm

re: #14 disillusioned

Political power to control the Government. The South was an agrarian society versus the north an industrialized society. The south was comfortable the way things were. The North wanted to change to laws of the land towards a more industrial based country. As the South lost power and couldn't get their laws through that protected their way of life they began to secede.

There are so many blank spots in this analysis it's just insane.

79 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:54:37pm

re: #75 JasonA

You don't really understand what "slavery" means, do you?

He's just some troll from Stormfront, probably naked and scratching his balls from his perch on grandma's service porch

80 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:55:18pm

re: #79 WindUpBird

He's just some troll from Stormfront, probably naked and scratching his balls from his perch on grandma's service porch

gak!

81 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:55:20pm

re: #74 WindUpBird

VOLKSWAGEN!

My dad calls the Beetle the "Nazi Car".

82 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:55:42pm

re: #77 abolitionist

Answer this question honestly: Would there have been a Civil War if there was no slavery?

83 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:56:16pm

re: #61 Charles

Does it strike anyone else as extremely weird that these issues are suddenly "coming up for debate" again, after every sane and reasonable person in America thought they were resolved forever?

I think trollcats has dealt with the reason for that concisely. /

84 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:56:21pm

re: #79 WindUpBird

He's just some troll from Stormfront, probably naked and scratching his balls from his perch on grandma's service porch

Wow. We have one thing in common. I'll let you guess which one...

/

85 McSpiff  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:56:23pm

re: #82 JasonA

Answer this question honestly: Would there have been a Civil War if there was no slavery?

No, the CSA wouldn't have been able to afford shoes let alone guns.

86 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:56:25pm

re: #50 Gusbenz

So your idea of "self determination" includes the enslavement of others. The dissonance just hurts.

87 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:56:45pm

re: #81 Varek Raith

My dad calls the Beetle the "Nazi Car".

What does he call the Type 3 Squareback? :D

88 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:56:49pm

Interesting. re: #79 WindUpBird

He's just some troll from Stormfront, probably naked and scratching his balls from his perch on grandma's service porch

I suspect they're "regular" conservatives who picked up this thread from twitter and came to educate us on what a tyrant Lincoln was. "The great war of Northern Aggression"

89 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:57:17pm

re: #87 WindUpBird

What does he call the Type 3 Squareback? :D

He'd probably like it, actually.
It's the Beetle he will forever disdain.
:)

90 abolitionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:57:51pm

re: #82 JasonA

Answer this question honestly: Would there have been a Civil War if there was no slavery?

Highly doubtful that without slavery that any state would have seceded.

91 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:57:57pm

The second I saw that The Sons of Confederate Veterans card I started laughing because I knew it was that fool Robert Stacy McCain's.

92 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:58:39pm

re: #81 Varek Raith

My dad calls the Beetle the "Nazi Car".

It's the Nazi helmet shape.

93 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:58:53pm

re: #91 Gus 802

The second I saw that The Sons of Confederate Veterans card I started laughing because I knew it was that fool Robert Stacy McCain's.

First name that popped in my head, too.

95 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:59:44pm

re: #75 JasonA

You don't really understand what "slavery" means, do you?

PaYiNg LeSS in TaXes THan We did under reagan!!= SLAVERY! /paulite, wingnut, teabagger, etc.

Also, paying a tax on tanning= "I now know the pain of racism"!

96 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 5:59:51pm

re: #94 WindUpBird

Ugly.

97 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:00:20pm
98 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:00:42pm

re: #4 disillusioned

don't understand that the North had indentured servants

You do understand the difference between contracted labor and out-right ownership of another human being, don't you?

99 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:01:14pm

re: #88 Killgore Trout

Interesting.

I suspect they're "regular" conservatives who picked up this thread from twitter and came to educate us on what a tyrant Lincoln was. "The great war of Northern Aggression"

Man, that's way more depressing!

But just in case:

Hello, True Conservatives on Twitter! It's a good thing you have that Twitter character limit, because it disguises your awful English skills!

100 researchok  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:01:25pm

There was certainly more than one reason over which the Civil War was fought, but in the end, they all paled before the tenacity of the South as they fought to retain the institution of slavery.

There is no getting around that. It is true that many southerners did not approve of slavery, but in the end, they took up arms to defend a society and culture that defended that terror. To be clear and not obtuse, slavery meant that people were auctioned off- torn away from their families. Many men, women and children were whipped mercilessly and suffered degradations in public. Many were tortured and all were oppressed in varying degrees, from birth to death. And yet, to this day, throughout the South, the Stars and Bars are flown, the flag under which slavery was defended and fought for, displayed as both a source of pride and a declaration of defiance.

TThe United States would be a very different country had the South won the war or had left the Union. That, happily, did not happen- for which we believe, has been to the benefit of all mankind. That said, we cannot glorify and romanticize those who fought for evil. If we do, we cannot make that demand of others. Why should they totally abandon the evil or the romanticizing of evil doers? We haven’t, as of yet- and we are the ones the world looks to for it’s cues on how to define and exercise freedom.

One of the legacies of the Civil War is the American commitment to civil rights. No other nation on earth has done more to erase the cruelty of discrimination and bias. It is ironic to note that the repressive nations and regimes that are most critical of America’s past and point their fingers are the same nations that are the most racist, bigoted and oppressive. In their attempt to draw moral equivalence, they only highlight their own dysfunctions.

There is a whispered truth that must be addressed. Slavery, the institution the Confederacy defended with their lives, was in fact not much different than evil radical Islamists espouse today. The Islamists are fighting to keep an entire culture enslaved. The Islamists are fighting to keep Muslims from claiming the freedom all men deserve. They fight to keep women oppressed and subject to beatings, humiliation and even honor killings. In fact, there is no more nobility in the actions of the radical Islamists than there was in the Southern fight to preserve slavery.

There are no reasons religious people of any faith anywhere, can tolerate or give their blessings to those who would make heroes of those men who would deny that we are all children of God.

The Stars and Bars will always be a part of American history, to be sure. We just need to rethink what that means.

101 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:01:31pm

re: #96 JasonA

Ugly.

the camper is a thing of beauty....you're probably a Motel 6 sort of guy tho

102 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:02:03pm

re: #98 MandyManners

Haven't you heard? The national rate of un-indentured is 9% and un-indentured benefits are running out.
///

103 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:02:15pm

re: #14 disillusioned

Political power to control the Government. The South was an agrarian society versus the north an industrialized society. The south was comfortable the way things were. The North wanted to change to laws of the land towards a more industrial based country. As the South lost power and couldn't get their laws through that protected their way of life they began to secede.

Of course the power elite in the South was comfortable with the status quo: they didn't have to pay their labor.

104 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:02:27pm

re: #96 JasonA

Ugly.

:(

I love the Vanagon! Cab-forward designs rule. Way cooler than a minivan.

See also, Toyota Wonder Wagon

105 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:03:25pm

re: #95 iceweasel

PaYiNg LeSS in TaXes THan We did under reagan!!= SLAVERY! /paulite, wingnut, teabagger, etc.

Also, paying a tax on tanning= "I now know the pain of racism"!

I say tax tattoos, and twice for their removal...4% goes to the feds

106 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:03:32pm

re: #27 Rightwingconspirator

So by indentured servants you refer to the employed blacks? Nice try.

Indentured servants were not just blacks. It was a way for some to leave Europe.

107 Gusbenz  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:03:32pm

I was merely quoting H.L. Mencken and his reading of the "Gettysburg Address". You wouldn't find a bigger fan than Lincoln in me, but one must remember that his main goal was protection of the union, which was threatened by Southern secession.

108 McSpiff  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:03:45pm

re: #104 WindUpBird

:(

I love the Vanagon! Cab-forward designs rule. Way cooler than a minivan.

See also, Toyota Wonder Wagon

Image: garbage01.jpg

The TeraCross!

109 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:04:03pm

re: #107 Gusbenz

And the South was threatening to secede ... why?

110 McSpiff  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:04:10pm

re: #108 McSpiff

Boo snopes, making me look like an idiot

111 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:04:17pm

re: #4 disillusioned

Sorry but the civil war was not about slavery. The root cause of the civil war was that the Southern States were losing power in the US senate, as more and more States were admitted to the union the more power Southern States lost. The civil war was all about power in government and had little if anything to do with slavery. That the end result was the abolition of slavery is a good thing. But to say it was all about slavery is a misread of history. Anyone that believes the north and Lincoln fought the civil war because they wanted slavery abolished don't understand that the North had indentured servants and was fine with their form of slavery. The revisionist historians want to make the war about slavery when in the end it was only about political power.

Er, would you like to tell me the percentage of the labor force serving under indentures in non-slave states in 1860?

I'm focusing on that because the rest of this is too irritating to even freaking bother with.

112 jaunte  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:04:43pm

re: #106 MandyManners

Indentured servants were not just blacks. It was a way for some to leave Europe.

Not really in the same league as slavery, though.

113 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:05:02pm

re: #97 albusteve

but will it go uphill?

Same engine as a Subie WRX:

227 hp (169 kW) at 6000 rpm with 217 lb·ft (294 N·m) at 4000 rpm

so yeah, it'll do fine

114 Red Pencil  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:05:37pm

Just based on my personal experience it seems to me that this is what (at least white) Southern kids have been taught, probably since about 1865. Discussions I have had --- in real life as well as on the internet --- with mature and otherwise apparently intelligent persons of Southern origin have usually gone kind of like this:

Me, incredulous: "So what, you think Lincoln tricked the Confederates into firing on Ft Sumter so he could take away states' rights?"

Southerner: "Yes, that's EXACTLY what happened!"

I'm afraid I have acquired an unfair prejudice against white Southerners as a result, though I know they are but hapless victims of their miseducation.../

115 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:05:41pm

re: #50 Gusbenz

The Civil War's root cause was slavery. The Southern socioeconomic system was based primarily on the subjection of blacks, whom were the dominate source of production. However, to maintain that Lincoln was fighting for "government of the people, by the people, for the people," couldn't be more untrue. As H.L. Mencken says, "The Union soldiers in that battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves. What was the practical effect of the battle of Gettysburg? What else than the destruction of the old sovereignty of the States, i.e., of the people of the States? The Confederates went into battle free; they came out with their freedom subject to the supervision and veto of the rest of the country—and for nearly twenty years that veto was so effective that they enjoyed scarcely more liberty, in the political sense, than so many convicts in the penitentiary."

Shit happens to losers of war.

116 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:05:43pm

re: #50 Gusbenz

The Civil War's root cause was slavery. The Southern socioeconomic system was based primarily on the subjection of blacks, whom were the dominate source of production. However, to maintain that Lincoln was fighting for "government of the people, by the people, for the people," couldn't be more untrue. As H.L. Mencken says, "The Union soldiers in that battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves. What was the practical effect of the battle of Gettysburg? What else than the destruction of the old sovereignty of the States, i.e., of the people of the States? The Confederates went into battle free; they came out with their freedom subject to the supervision and veto of the rest of the country—and for nearly twenty years that veto was so effective that they enjoyed scarcely more liberty, in the political sense, than so many convicts in the penitentiary."

It's true that the decisions of the Southern State were for years afterwards subject to veto by Congress. But to that I say: "Woe to the vanquished." The South had proved that it was not worthy of trust by rebelling and Reconstruction was part of the penalty to be paid.

117 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:05:56pm

re: #107 Gusbenz

I was merely quoting H.L. Mencken and his reading of the "Gettysburg Address". You wouldn't find a bigger fan than Lincoln in me, but one must remember that his main goal was protection of the union, which was threatened by Southern secession.

Yes but you should have made it clear that you disagree with what was said.

The USA would not function if we were a nation where the states had more power than the federal government that's why we tossed the Articles of Confederation in the first place.

118 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:05:57pm

re: #108 McSpiff

The garbage truck camper thing? I've seen that, it's rad :D

119 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:06:03pm

re: #112 jaunte

Not really in the same league as slavery, though.

For one thing, it wasn't for life.

120 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:06:14pm

re: #14 disillusioned

Political power to control the Government. The South was an agrarian society versus the north an industrialized society. The south was comfortable the way things were. The North wanted to change to laws of the land towards a more industrial based country. As the South lost power and couldn't get their laws through that protected their way of life they began to secede.

You do understand that 'their way of life' is, in fact, a euphemism for 'using slave labor', and 'not having to pay their credit cards off'?

121 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:06:27pm

re: #113 WindUpBird

so yeah, it'll do fine

I want one...I plan on another camper within the next few years, and now there is HOPE at last!

122 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:07:01pm

re: #16 disillusioned

Not what I said or meant at all. The civil war was all about politics.

No, it was about economics. There was a substantial moral issue tied up with the economic issues of the day.

123 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:07:24pm

re: #17 Decatur Deb

About a quarter of the southerners around here weren't that comfortable.

They felt fine until those Northern liberals started stirring up trouble!!!!!

124 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:07:56pm

re: #112 jaunte

Not really in the same league as slavery, though.

Not at all.

125 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:08:06pm

re: #19 Racer X

So all those Southern slaves fled to the North just to be slaves in cooler weather?

I'm going to get slapped with lightning, but after spending last week in Louisiana, I can sort of see that, personally.

126 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:08:09pm

re: #121 albusteve

I want one...I plan on another camper within the next few years, and now there is HOPE at last!

Every so often those things pop up on craigslist, because it's apparently not a hard engine swap, the WRX boxer turbo fits well in the Vanagon's engine compartment.

127 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:08:35pm

re: #121 albusteve

I want one...I plan on another camper within the next few years, and now there is HOPE at last!

I had and miss desperately my Westfalia.

128 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:08:40pm

And as ever, here's my Standing Answer to Neo-Confederates:

129 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:09:08pm

re: #119 iceweasel

For one thing, it wasn't for life.

Nor were your kids born into it if you were one...

130 Ojoe  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:09:15pm

re: #109 Charles

Basically, the South was losing its political grip on the country & instead of sharing power they decided to wreck the Union.

131 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:10:12pm

re: #29 abolitionist

To Lincoln, it was about preserving the Union, and slavery was a secondary issue, according to a letter he wrote.

And, though it galls me to say it, he was probably right. Destroying the Union would have been a Bad Thing. However, being a smart man, he figured out how to save the Union and get rid of slavery both. Genius!

132 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:10:30pm

re: #126 WindUpBird

Every so often those things pop up on craigslist, because it's apparently not a hard engine swap, the WRX boxer turbo fits well in the Vanagon's engine compartment.

I screamed for years I want a Porche powerd camper...nobody would listen to me...so is the WXR water cooled, hence the 'boxer'? (vaterboxer)

133 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:10:39pm

re: #130 Ojoe

Basically, the South was losing its political grip on the country & instead of sharing power they decided to wreck the Union.

Like the rest of the country didn't bend over backwards with that whole 3/5ths bullshit.

134 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:10:40pm

re: #130 Ojoe

Basically, the South was losing its political grip on the country & instead of sharing power they decided to wreck the Union.

////You know those kinds of actions reminds me of someone but I can't quite figure out who...

135 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:10:53pm

re: #121 albusteve

I want one...I plan on another camper within the next few years, and now there is HOPE at last!

There's also these Volkswagen Eurovan campers, less zany than a turbo Vanagon but a ton of room, pretty cool

136 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:10:54pm

re: #38 Decatur Deb

This is awful. I have to walk the dog, but I don't want to miss the aria in the death scene. BB Real Fast.

You're a good dog owner.

137 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:10:54pm

I just really despise the whole concept of forced labor, slavery, rape, robbery... It's all the same huge violation of one person upon another for gain. How some can support that in any form is just beyond me. Amoral is the best term I can post.

138 Virginia Plain  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:11:05pm

re: #130 Ojoe

Basically, the South was losing its political grip on the country & instead of sharing power they decided to wreck the Union.

Sort of like the GOP today. Which has a strong base in the south.

139 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:12:09pm

I'm back. Is the Denial of Sanity attack over?

140 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:12:12pm

re: #53 Charles

Another one!

There goes another one!
There it goes again!
There goes another one!
When will it ever end?

141 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:12:35pm

re: #135 WindUpBird

There's also these Volkswagen Eurovan campers, less zany than a turbo Vanagon but a ton of room, pretty cool

yeah, almost bought a used one, but I want an older one, just on principle....even if I put a different motor in it

142 Ojoe  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:12:47pm

re: #131 SanFranciscoZionist

"If slavery is not wrong, then nothing is wrong."

— Abraham Lincoln.

143 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:12:53pm

Saying that the Civil War was not about slavery is just a cheap ploy to hide behind their support of the Confederate states and emblazon themselves with the flag of the Confederacy and all it stood for. One of the things it stood for was slavery.

144 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:13:07pm

re: #132 albusteve

I screamed for years I want a Porche powerd camper...nobody would listen to me...so is the WXR water cooled, hence the 'boxer'? (vaterboxer)

yeah, it's a newer (2005ish) watercooled turbo engine, normally found in these guys: Image: 2005-Subaru-Impreza-WRX-300-SA-1024x768.jpg

Basically, it's sort of the idea of the 911-powered VW camper but with more reliability, since that WRX engine and its derivatives are in about a zillion Subaru products

145 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:13:24pm

re: #61 Charles

Does it strike anyone else as extremely weird that these issues are suddenly "coming up for debate" again, after every sane and reasonable person in America thought they were resolved forever?

Yes.

146 Ojoe  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:14:00pm

BBL

147 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:14:08pm

re: #131 SanFranciscoZionist

And, though it galls me to say it, he was probably right. Destroying the Union would have been a Bad Thing. However, being a smart man, he figured out how to save the Union and get rid of slavery both. Genius!

Agreed. Also I think and independent south would have been fucked. They had no industrial base which by 1900 became crucially important. They may have eventually ended slavery on their own through international pressure but slavery could have lasted well up to 1950. Even today I have a hard time imagining them giving equal rights to all their citizens of their own accord. They'd be a backward 3rd world nation at best.

148 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:15:00pm

re: #131 SanFranciscoZionist

And, though it galls me to say it, he was probably right. Destroying the Union would have been a Bad Thing. However, being a smart man, he figured out how to save the Union and get rid of slavery both. Genius!

With a great deal of help from able leaders like Grant and Sherman.

Interesting also that RS McCain's camp was named for Nathan Bedford Forrest. Some of the Confederacy's generals were quite noble in many ways, men such as Robert Edward Lee and James Longstreet. Forrest, though probably the best cavalry commander of the war, was a brutal man who was quite willing to order men shot when they tried to surrender. To name a camp after him says a great deal about the organization that does it.

149 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:15:14pm

Gadzooks. I just saw "Dear Gus" flash by in spy and thought to myself what the? There can only be one Gus in here and it is I!

All your Gus's are belong to us me!

/

150 jaunte  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:15:23pm

re: #139 Decatur Deb

I'm back. Is the Denial of Sanity attack over?


Temporarily, maybe, but it may be Undead.

151 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:15:26pm

re: #144 WindUpBird

yeah, it's a newer (2005ish) watercooled turbo engine, normally found in these guys: Image: 2005-Subaru-Impreza-WRX-300-SA-1024x768.jpg

Basically, it's sort of the idea of the 911-powered VW camper but with more reliability, since that WRX engine and its derivatives are in about a zillion Subaru products

cool beans!...I'm getting juiced...it's a hard call because the new campers are really nice

152 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:15:41pm

re: #76 JasonA

No, they're actually illegal over there.

That made me do a double-take. You mean swastikas, not Volkswagens. Gotcha.

153 Gusbenz  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:16:03pm

re: #109 Charles

And the South was threatening to secede ... why?

Slavery. I said in my very first post that the root cause was slavery. Though I love being labeled a racist (#68) as the result of someone's cursory reading.

154 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:16:15pm

I mean, we fought a dirty, bloody war over this issue. It ought to be settled. There's no good reason for exhuming these long-dead arguments once again.

This is what I mean by 'bad craziness.'

155 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:16:43pm

re: #143 Gus 802

Saying that the Civil War was not about slavery is just a cheap ploy to hide behind their support of the Confederate states and emblazon themselves with the flag of the Confederacy and all it stood for. One of the things it stood for was slavery.

I cringe when I see the Confederate flag shit. Just cringe.

156 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:17:18pm

re: #141 albusteve

yeah, almost bought a used one, but I want an older one, just on principle...even if I put a different motor in it

CHRIST people want a lot of money for these things. $21,000 for an 1984 Vanagon camper! Granted, a lot of it has been rebuilt, but wow

157 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:17:24pm

The Gulags in Siberia weren't prison camps! They were town like re-education centers.

//Revisionist

158 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:17:49pm

re: #157 Gus 802

The Gulags in Siberia weren't prison camps! They were town like re-education centers.

//Revisionist

The people were better off!

/

159 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:17:57pm

re: #154 Charles

I mean, we fought a dirty, bloody war over this issue. It ought to be settled. There's no good reason for exhuming these long-dead arguments once again.

This is what I mean by 'bad craziness.'

I thought it was just racism?

160 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:18:13pm

re: #156 WindUpBird

CHRIST people want a lot of money for these things. $21,000 for an 1984 Vanagon camper! Granted, a lot of it has been rebuilt, but wow

Rich hippies.
/

161 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:19:01pm

re: #153 Gusbenz

Slavery. I said in my very first post that the root cause was slavery. Though I love being labeled a racist (#68) as the result of someone's cursory reading.

Bullshit. Here is your first post.

Sorry but the civil war was not about slavery. The root cause of the civil war was that the Southern States were losing power in the US senate, as more and more States were admitted to the union the more power Southern States lost. The civil war was all about power in government and had little if anything to do with slavery. That the end result was the abolition of slavery is a good thing. But to say it was all about slavery is a misread of history. Anyone that believes the north and Lincoln fought the civil war because they wanted slavery abolished don't understand that the North had indentured servants and was fine with their form of slavery. The revisionist historians want to make the war about slavery when in the end it was only about political power.

162 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:19:06pm

re: #148 Dark_Falcon

With a great deal of help from able leaders like Grant and Sherman.

Interesting also that RS McCain's camp was named for Nathan Bedford Forrest. Some of the Confederacy's generals were quite noble in many ways, men such as Robert Edward Lee and James Longstreet. Forrest, though probably the best cavalry commander of the war, was a brutal man who was quite willing to order men shot when they tried to surrender. To name a camp after him says a great deal about the organization that does it.

And of course he went on to go found the KKK didn't the?

163 TedStriker  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:19:13pm

re: #14 disillusioned

Political power to control the Government. The South was an agrarian society versus the north an industrialized society. The south was comfortable the way things were. The North wanted to change to laws of the land towards a more industrial based country. As the South lost power and couldn't get their laws through that protected their way of life they began to secede.

The South sure was comfortable with the antebellum status quo...their agrarian way of life was fueled off the backs (and lives) of slaves. They feared Lincoln was gonna help put an end to that gravy train (which he did, just not how they figured), but the thing is that the South was gonna have to industrialize and kick the slavery habit eventually because Britain and other nations that used slave labor were ridding themselves of it.

Those nations that gave slaving up would have the economic advantage of increasing mechanization in farming, while the South would have been pulled down even more by the economic albatross of slavery. So, yeah...the South went to war over federal power...the power to keep slavery legal in the US.

164 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:19:26pm

re: #160 Shiplord Kirel

Rich hippies.
/

Re-living our past.

I'm going to start looking.

165 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:19:53pm

re: #155 Stanley Sea

I cringe when I see the Confederate flag shit. Just cringe.

Tomorrow I'm driving up I-65 through Montgomery to Birmingham, passing a monument flown by RSM's Group. It was once the largest rebel flag in the world, but has been surpassed by their new one in Tampa area. My family was in a Pennsylvania artillery unit.

166 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:20:24pm

re: #162 jamesfirecat

And of course he went on to go found the KKK didn't the?

Yes, but at first they were a loving and helpful organization that protected the poor white folk from opportunistic carpetbaggers and vengeful negroes.

///

167 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:20:56pm

re: #156 WindUpBird

CHRIST people want a lot of money for these things. $21,000 for an 1984 Vanagon camper! Granted, a lot of it has been rebuilt, but wow

mine was an 84...last year for the single round headlights...a water pumping nightmare....one hell of a lot of fun tho, gone in my divorce but I'll have another one someday I swear...this one posted will compete with the new versions and somebody will buy it...bet me...I want another one so bad I can taste it

168 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:21:11pm

re: #161 MandyManners

Bullshit. Here is your first post.

Mandy... that was re: #4 disillusioned comment.

169 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:21:16pm

re: #112 jaunte

Not really in the same league as slavery, though.

Personal favorite early American history story: Benjamin Banneker's grandmother (English), upon completing her indentures, bought two African men to work the land she'd claimed. One of them explained that he, being a prince in his own country, could not work for anyone but himself, so she married him. (I suspect this story would have turned out differently if he'd tried this one someone who wasn't a single woman, but heck, if life gives you lemons...)

Legend states that when their daughter got of an age to marry she went back to the Boston slave market to get a son-in-law, apparently on the principal that a guy from Ghana had worked out well for her.

170 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:21:59pm

re: #160 Shiplord Kirel

Rich hippies.
/

Or just VW fans who want a short wheel-base camper.

You think the guy selling this is a hippie? :D

171 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:22:05pm

re: #154 Charles

I mean, we fought a dirty, bloody war over this issue. It ought to be settled. There's no good reason for exhuming these long-dead arguments once again.

This is what I mean by 'bad craziness.'

The Lost Cause myth ("not about slavery") was taught as dogma in the Texas public schools when I was a child in the 50s.
My answer has always been to ask the advocates of this position if they really think the intersectional conflicts could have led to war if there had been no slavery.

172 BryanS  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:22:22pm

re: #114 Red Pencil

Just based on my personal experience it seems to me that this is what (at least white) Southern kids have been taught, probably since about 1865. Discussions I have had --- in real life as well as on the internet --- with mature and otherwise apparently intelligent persons of Southern origin have usually gone kind of like this:

Me, incredulous: "So what, you think Lincoln tricked the Confederates into firing on Ft Sumter so he could take away states' rights?"

Southerner: "Yes, that's EXACTLY what happened!"

I'm afraid I have acquired an unfair prejudice against white Southerners as a result, though I know they are but hapless victims of their miseducation.../

Either that, or some people (like the two yahoos on this thread) mis-learned what was actually being taught. I remember the "was it slavery" discussion from my high school AP US History class. Clearly, the issues were complex, and it was more than just slavery. However slavery was the thread that touched each of the other reasons.

States rights issues ultimately were a concern due to Southerners claims that their property was escaping to non-slave states, and the south wanted its laws to be enforceable in the free north.

Yes, there were economic differences as well. The south based their agrarian economy on forced labor from slaves. The economic differences between the North and South were reinforced by slavery.

All of the other "reasons" beyond the indignity of slavery were in fact big reasons, but as I say, slavery is the thread that touches all of them.

173 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:22:49pm

re: #161 MandyManners

Bullshit. Here is your first post.

Sorry but the civil war was not about slavery. The root cause of the civil war was that the Southern States were losing power in the US senate, as more and more States were admitted to the union the more power Southern States lost. The civil war was all about power in government and had little if anything to do with slavery. That the end result was the abolition of slavery is a good thing. But to say it was all about slavery is a misread of history. Anyone that believes the north and Lincoln fought the civil war because they wanted slavery abolished don't understand that the North had indentured servants and was fine with their form of slavery. The revisionist historians want to make the war about slavery when in the end it was only about political power.

That was a different poster called 'disillusioned', Mandy.

174 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:23:50pm

re: #170 WindUpBird

Or just VW fans who want a short wheel-base camper.

You think the guy selling this is a hippie? :D

water pumpers are verboten in VW circles....get that shit outa here!

175 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:23:58pm

re: #171 Shiplord Kirel

The Lost Cause myth ("not about slavery") was taught as dogma in the Texas public schools when I was a child in the 50s.
My answer has always been to ask the advocates of this position if they really think the intersectional conflicts could have led to war if there had been no slavery.

Reine had a bunch of our secessionist declarations after the last iteration of this crap. We probably need to build Troll Hammer II.

176 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:24:17pm

re: #166 JasonA

Yes, but at first they were a loving and helpful organization that protected the poor white folk from opportunistic carpetbaggers and vengeful negroes.

///

D.W., is that you?

(upding to whoever figures this one out first.)

177 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:24:51pm

re: #16 disillusioned

Not what I said or meant at all. The civil war was all about politics.

Yeah.

Slavery? Just politics.
Lynching? Just politics.
Jim Crow? Just politics.
Civil Rights Movement? Just politics.

Amnesia about the Civil War and a sudden need to redefend the Glorious Cause after the election of the first black POTUS?

Just politics.

178 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:25:00pm

re: #157 Gus 802

The Gulags in Siberia weren't prison camps! They were town like re-education centers.

//Revisionist

"So what was your mother like?"

"She was warm! Loving! Typical revisionist."

179 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:25:25pm

re: #159 Walter L. Newton

I thought it was just racism?

Also, a desire to secede, if I read some of these folks aright.

180 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:25:46pm

re: #176 Dark_Falcon

D.W., is that you?

(upding to whoever figures this one out first.)

Griffith.

181 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:26:12pm

re: #4 disillusioned

Declaration of Causes of Secession.

It was all about slavery.

182 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:26:39pm

re: #162 jamesfirecat

And of course he went on to go found the KKK didn't the?

Yes he did. Forrest was a proponent of total war, and of using irregulars to create mayhem too. One of his most famous sayings was to call for "war to the knife, and the knife to the hilt." This meant war with no quarter asked for or given; a war to the death.

183 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:27:12pm

re: #180 Shiplord Kirel

Griffith.

Correct.

184 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:27:31pm

re: #167 albusteve

mine was an 84...last year for the single round headlights...a water pumping nightmare...one hell of a lot of fun tho, gone in my divorce but I'll have another one someday I swear...this one posted will compete with the new versions and somebody will buy it...bet me...I want another one so bad I can taste it

Oh yeah, someone will buy it, there's such a culture for these things in Oregon, I see a lot of them in remarkable shape, just parked on the street

There was a 1991 VW Jetta GLI I saw parked out front of a pub here, it looked showroom new, so immaculate it was probably a show car: Image: blurgli2.jpg Exactly this but grey, and they hadn't darkened out the VW emblems.

185 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:27:40pm

is this one of those times where i can say really bad things about the south or is that never ok im confused

186 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:27:44pm

re: #21 disillusioned

What books have you read, other than "The South Was Right!"

187 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:27:51pm

re: #177 iceweasel

Yeah.

Slavery? Just politics.
Lynching? Just politics.
Jim Crow? Just politics.
Civil Rights Movement? Just politics.

Amnesia about the Civil War and a sudden need to redefend the Glorious Cause after the election of the first black POTUS?

Just politics.

Well lookie here!

The first Klan was founded in 1865 in Pulaski, Tennessee by veterans of the Confederate Army.

What do you know. The Klan was founded by a bunch of Greycoats!

188 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:27:52pm

re: #174 albusteve

water pumpers are verboten in VW circles...get that shit outa here!

air-cooled vs watercooled, the eternal struggle!

189 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:28:16pm

re: #182 Dark_Falcon

Yes he did. Forrest was a proponent of total war, and of using irregulars to create mayhem too. One of his most famous sayings was to call for "war to the knife, and the knife to the hilt." This meant war with no quarter asked for or given; a war to the death.

It's too bad he didn't follow that through to its logical conclusion.

190 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:28:27pm

re: #21 disillusioned

Sorry that it doesn't match your narrow minded view. Tell me how you think it was about slavery? I can tell you the north had its own indentured servants. The end result of the war was the end of slavery. The beginning of the war had very little if anything to do with slavery.

omg we have one of these!

can we keep him please please oh please

191 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:28:57pm

re: #185 SpaceJesus

is this one of those times where i can say really bad things about the south or is that never ok im confused

This time its OK.

192 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:28:59pm

re: #182 Dark_Falcon

Yes he did. Forrest was a proponent of total war, and of using irregulars to create mayhem too. One of his most famous sayings was to call for "war to the knife, and the knife to the hilt." This meant war with no quarter asked for or given; a war to the death.

The US Army has a Ft Lee, Ft Hood, Ft Benning. Ft Polk, Ft. Jackson, Ft Bragg, and Ft AP Hill. It does not have a Ft Forrest.

193 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:29:00pm

re: #181 Alouette

Declaration of Causes of Secession.

It was all about slavery.

I don't even see a debate here...the whole premise is ridiculous

194 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:29:13pm

re: #187 Gus 802

What do you know. The Klan was founded by a bunch of Greycoats!

No wait. Confederatenut thinking...

"Well, if the Civil War wasn't about slavery then the Klan wasn't founded on racism."

//Reverse osmosis logic.

195 Red Pencil  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:29:14pm

re: #61 Charles

Does it strike anyone else as extremely weird that these issues are suddenly "coming up for debate" again, after every sane and reasonable person in America thought they were resolved forever?

Unfortunately it does NOT strike me as extremely weird or even the least bit surprising. The sane and reasonable consensus you take for granted was always skin deep (at best) in parts of the South. I have been having conversations with seemingly intelligent Southerners for decades, people who believe that Lincoln was an evil manipulator who provoked the Southerners into starting the war just so he could take their power and their property (by which, of course, they mean their ancestors' large tracts of land, not that other thing, that was just a diversion, Lincoln wasn't really anti-slavery and slavery was going to die a natural death anyway...)

I CAN think of (white) Southern folks who DIDN'T carry on that way. But I have to work harder to remember the sane ones. And come to think of it their sanity may have been partly a rebellion against their social milieu...

196 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:29:33pm

re: #187 Gus 802

What do you know. The Klan was founded by a bunch of Greycoats!

No, it can't be!
Why, I have it on good authority that the Klan consisted of noble, brave boys like Ashley Wilkes defending the honour of white women, suh!

/idiot who gets his history from Gone With the Wind

197 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:29:36pm

re: #181 Alouette

Declaration of Causes of Secession.

It was all about slavery.

we have a winner

198 McSpiff  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:29:51pm

Its almost like the "Bring out your dead sketch!"

Neo-confederate: "It wasn't about slavery!"

CSA: "Yes it was!"

Neo: "No it wasn't!"

ad nauseum.

199 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:30:20pm

This reminds me of Usenet alt.war.civil.usa, where Stacy McCain was the third most obnoxious troll in the newsgroup.

200 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:30:41pm

re: #190 SpaceJesus

omg we have one of these!

can we keep him please please oh please

You know they always piddle on the carpet and spray the walls. We always say we'll walk it and clean up after it, but it's always Stinky who winds up doing it. :(

201 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:30:59pm

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. "

Alexander Stephens, VP of the CSA. Delivering the foundational cornerstone speech of the CSA.


[Link: teachingamericanhistory.org...]

202 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:31:06pm

re: #199 Alouette

This reminds me of Usenet alt.war.civil.usa, where Stacy McCain was the third most obnoxious troll in the newsgroup.

Save us.

203 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:31:20pm

re: #168 Walter L. Newton

Mandy... that was re: #4 disillusioned comment.

*sigh*

204 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:31:43pm

re: #192 Decatur Deb

The US Army has a Ft Lee, Ft Hood, Ft Benning. Ft Polk, Ft. Jackson, Ft Bragg, and Ft AP Hill. It does not have a Ft Forrest.

We have a fort Bragg? Wasn't that guy just a general f*** up? And can't similar things things be said about John Bell Hood once he became a general?

205 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:31:46pm

re: #153 Gusbenz

Slavery. I said in my very first post that the root cause was slavery. Though I love being labeled a racist (#68) as the result of someone's cursory reading.

I apologize for the mix up.

206 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:31:59pm

re: #200 iceweasel

You know they always piddle on the carpet and spray the walls. We always say we'll walk it and clean up after it, but it's always Stinky who winds up doing it. :(


make me a mod with powers over just this one person i swear ill take care of him; he'll be like my little pet i promise

207 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:32:01pm

re: #196 iceweasel

No, it can't be!
Why, I have it on good authority that the Klan consisted of noble, brave boys like Ashley Wilkes defending the honour of white women, suh!

/idiot who gets his history from Gone With the Wind

Yep, nothing to see here. Only...

Nathan Bedford Forrest (July 13, 1821 – October 29, 1877) was a lieutenant general in the Confederate Army during the American Civil War. He is remembered both as a self-educated, innovative cavalry leader during the war and as a leading southern advocate in the postwar years. He served as the first Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, a secret vigilante organization which launched a reign of terror against blacks and Republicans during Reconstruction in the South.

Image: NathanBedfordForrest.jpg

208 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:32:07pm

re: #173 Dark_Falcon

That was a different poster called 'disillusioned', Mandy.

I feel like an idiot.

209 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:32:24pm

re: #189 JasonA

It's too bad he didn't follow that through to its logical conclusion.

The US was luck that he did not follow through on that. A more organized guerrilla campaign in the South could have made a very ugly time far worse. As it was the insurgents the South had trained sometimes gave trouble for years as outlaws. The most famous of these were, of course, Frank and Jesse James.

210 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:32:37pm

re: #194 Gus 802

No wait. Confederatenut thinking...

"Well, if the Civil War wasn't about slavery then the Klan wasn't founded on racism."

//Reverse osmosis logic.

I know I mentioned this, but some of my LA in-laws appear to believe that their parish is persecuting them by encouraging black families to move out from town into the all-white boonies in the area. (Why black families would do this on a bet continues to elude me.)

I was told by one relative that it would be all right if they were coming because they wanted to have a garden or something, 'but we need to be careful about the ones that just want to cause trouble'.

Given that my in-laws are locked in mortal feuds with the white neighbors on three sides of their property (catfish parts are being left in strategic places, and punches have been thrown), I find it hard to imagine what new kind of trouble black neighbors could stir up.

211 Gusbenz  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:32:41pm

re: #154 Charles

I mean, we fought a dirty, bloody war over this issue. It ought to be settled. There's no good reason for exhuming these long-dead arguments once again.

This is what I mean by 'bad craziness.'

I disagree. Why is it 'bad craziness' to openly discuss history? Granted, my first post was hastily written and misread, which lead to some hostility. The Civil War was fortunately won by the Union. That's settled. It is known. It is good. However, reading and examining the old arguments is always a good thing. Mencken's quote was taken from a 1922 article, some years after the war. I see no issue with discussing the lead-up to the Civil War. I wholeheartedly agree that it's 'bad craziness' when indoctrination is pushed by zealots of a dead ideology, especially when pushed upon school children. Still, it's never a bad thing to examine the banner of a long dead racist ideology, it is however deplorable to hoist it up and fly it high.

212 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:32:49pm

re: #199 Alouette

This reminds me of Usenet alt.war.civil.usa, where Stacy McCain was the third most obnoxious troll in the newsgroup.

I spent all my time on alt.fan.metal and alt.binaries.warez.atari.st :D

213 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:33:03pm

I'm gonna' go back to watching the I Love Lucy marathon. I can't fuck up that.

214 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:33:40pm

re: #209 Dark_Falcon

The US was luck that he did not follow through on that. A more organized guerrilla campaign in the South could have made a very ugly time far worse. As it was the insurgents the South had trained sometimes gave trouble for years as outlaws. The most famous of these were, of course, Frank and Jesse James.

I was saying I wish he died fighting so he couldn't start up the KKK.

215 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:34:30pm

re: #204 jamesfirecat

We have a fort Bragg? Wasn't that guy just a general f*** up? And can't similar things things be said about John Bell Hood once he became a general?

Hood took a lot of casualties, but his men stayed with him and he got field results. He was their Sherman. Polk was a hapless loser whose men loved him. He was their McClellan (who also has a fort).

216 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:34:33pm

re: #210 SanFranciscoZionist


Given that my in-laws are locked in mortal feuds with the white neighbors on three sides of their property (catfish parts are being left in strategic places, and punches have been thrown), I find it hard to imagine what new kind of trouble black neighbors could stir up.

"here's your problem, someone pulled the water pump from your catfish and left it in the neighbor's rhodies"

217 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:34:37pm

re: #208 MandyManners

I feel like an idiot.

We all make mistakes.

218 Nimed  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:34:57pm

re: #208 MandyManners

I feel like an idiot.

I updinged your comment. It's hard to tell them apart! O_O

219 Gusbenz  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:35:17pm

re: #205 MandyManners

I apologize for the mix up.

Thanks. I almost went crazy.

220 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:35:45pm

I'm feening for a new game. I think I need to play Bioshock.

221 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:35:45pm

re: #214 JasonA

I was saying I wish he died fighting so he couldn't start up the KKK.

Sadly, I think a deadly combination of societal breakdown, hurt pride and Sir Walter Scott's goopier works probably would have led to the Klan in some form regardless.

222 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:36:18pm

re: #184 WindUpBird

Oh yeah, someone will buy it, there's such a culture for these things in Oregon, I see a lot of them in remarkable shape, just parked on the street

There was a 1991 VW Jetta GLI I saw parked out front of a pub here, it looked showroom new, so immaculate it was probably a show car: Image: blurgli2.jpg Exactly this but grey, and they hadn't darkened out the VW emblems.

I love my 03 Jetta, one of several VWs I've owned....there are tons of campers out here, mosty beat, but not all of them...I'm a camper drooler and when I see an old air cooled box top I go nuts...I'd love to rebuild one, but it's gotta have some HP...what a cool buggy to own...my whole personna went in the tank when I lost my camper

223 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:36:47pm

re: #215 Decatur Deb

Hood took a lot of casualties, but his men stayed with him and he got field results. He was their Sherman. Polk was a hapless loser whose men loved him. He was their McClellan (who also has a fort).

Hood only got field results as a division commander under Longstreet and leading a corps under Joe Johnston. As an army commander he was an utter failure who repeatedly threw his troops into frontal assaults on entrenched Union forces.

224 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:36:51pm

re: #211 Gusbenz

I disagree. Why is it 'bad craziness' to openly discuss history?

LOL. This exact line worked out so well for David Irving et al.

Not to go all Godwin, but what the sons of the confederacy (cough) are doing does have so many parallels with holocaust revisionism. Unsurprisingly.

225 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:37:48pm

CONFEDERATE TROLL HAMMER on "Causes of the Civil War"

GEORGIA:

For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic.

MISSISSIPPI:

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization.

SOUTH CAROLINA:

But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution.

TEXAS:

Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated Union to promote her welfare, insure domestic tranquility and secure more substantially the blessings of peace and liberty to her people. She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy.

226 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:38:09pm

re: #211 Gusbenz

I disagree. Why is it 'bad craziness' to openly discuss history? Granted, my first post was hastily written and misread, which lead to some hostility. The Civil War was fortunately won by the Union. That's settled. It is known. It is good. However, reading and examining the old arguments is always a good thing. Mencken's quote was taken from a 1922 article, some years after the war. I see no issue with discussing the lead-up to the Civil War. I wholeheartedly agree that it's 'bad craziness' when indoctrination is pushed by zealots of a dead ideology, especially when pushed upon school children. Still, it's never a bad thing to examine the banner of a long dead racist ideology, it is however deplorable to hoist it up and fly it high.

The problem as that there are a number of articles like this one that prove that this ideology is sadly not dead yet.

227 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:38:15pm

re: #224 iceweasel

LOL. This exact line worked out so well for David Irving et al.

Not to go all Godwin, but what the sons of the confederacy (cough) are doing does have so many parallels with holocaust revisionism. Unsurprisingly.

Well, at least they aren't arguing that slavery never happened...

(Please don't post links saying they are. I can't handle that right now.)

228 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:38:51pm

re: #215 Decatur Deb

Hood took a lot of casualties, but his men stayed with him and he got field results. He was their Sherman. Polk was a hapless loser whose men loved him. He was their McClellan (who also has a fort).


I know he was an okay as a guy in charge of a wing, but once he became a General in charge of the entire army of Tennessee didn't he screw things up by having no taste for defensive warfare, miss out on a chance to totally own the enemy at Spring Hill, before trying to attack a heavily defended position at Franklin straight up and lost most of his army before continuing on anyway to see the entire thing fall apart on him in Tennessee?

229 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:39:26pm

re: #225 Alouette

Excellent. I've got some more buried around here. Can that be a permanent page, since the war isn't over.

230 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:39:47pm

re: #225 Alouette

Note the date! On this day was born...

Alouette's Confederate Troll Hammer - 7-11-2010

231 jaunte  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:40:04pm

re: #154 Charles

I mean, we fought a dirty, bloody war over this issue. It ought to be settled. There's no good reason for exhuming these long-dead arguments once again.

This is what I mean by 'bad craziness.'

It's the Tenthers, 'just asking questions.'

232 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:40:08pm

re: #222 albusteve

I love my 03 Jetta, one of several VWs I've owned...there are tons of campers out here, mosty beat, but not all of them...I'm a camper drooler and when I see an old air cooled box top I go nuts...I'd love to rebuild one, but it's gotta have some HP...what a cool buggy to own...my whole personna went in the tank when I lost my camper

The idea of a camper that weighs less than a Toyota Camry is very appealing to me :D

Audi V8 Vanagon

Crazy, but I'm glad someone did it!

233 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:41:10pm

re: #228 jamesfirecat

I know he was an okay as a guy in charge of a wing, but once he became a General in charge of the entire army of Tennessee didn't he screw things up by having no taste for defensive warfare, miss out on a chance to totally own the enemy at Spring Hill, before trying to attack a heavily defended position at Franklin straight up and lost most of his army before continuing on anyway to see the entire thing fall apart on him in Tennessee?

Yes--Hood's Texans stopped being Texans early on. Most were casualties.

234 Gusbenz  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:41:21pm

Okay, openly discuss established history. Facts. Not the made up rumblings of a madman. To make clear, Mencken was a literary critic having his way with Lincoln's address.

235 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:41:30pm

re: #225 Alouette

Favourited. Adding in the Cornerstone speech and it's not even a hammer, it's a win by T.K.O= total knockout.

236 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:41:54pm

re: #224 iceweasel

LOL. This exact line worked out so well for David Irving et al.

Not to go all Godwin, but what the sons of the confederacy (cough) are doing does have so many parallels with holocaust revisionism. Unsurprisingly.

I was thinking that earlier but nixed it because of the Godwin clause. In reality though you are correct. There are similarities in arguments.

237 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:42:14pm

re: #235 iceweasel

Favourited. Adding in the Cornerstone speech and it's not even a hammer, it's a win by T.K.O= total knockout.


the cornerstone speech is the general sherman of arguments

238 BryanS  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:42:23pm

re: #211 Gusbenz

I disagree. Why is it 'bad craziness' to openly discuss history? Granted, my first post was hastily written and misread, which lead to some hostility. The Civil War was fortunately won by the Union. That's settled. It is known. It is good. However, reading and examining the old arguments is always a good thing. Mencken's quote was taken from a 1922 article, some years after the war. I see no issue with discussing the lead-up to the Civil War. I wholeheartedly agree that it's 'bad craziness' when indoctrination is pushed by zealots of a dead ideology, especially when pushed upon school children. Still, it's never a bad thing to examine the banner of a long dead racist ideology, it is however deplorable to hoist it up and fly it high.

H.L. Mencken's quote is pretty odious. To claim that the south was the true fighters for self determination ignores the lack of self determination slaves had. H.L. Mencken is raising up state's rights above the rights of the individual. I personally think the individual rights are paramount. Either H.L. Mencken was a racist or he was a fascist. Either way, that quote of his you pulled out was crap.

239 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:43:05pm

re: #232 WindUpBird

The idea of a camper that weighs less than a Toyota Camry is very appealing to me :D

Audi V8 Vanagon

Crazy, but I'm glad someone did it!

the weight of the Vanagon is the whole problem...the day will come when I can simply buy my way out of the problem...your links are well appreciated, thanks...there is just something very unique here, and I want what's MINE!

240 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:43:17pm

re: #227 JasonA

Well, at least they aren't arguing that slavery never happened...

(Please don't post links saying they are. I can't handle that right now.)

There's plenty who did, and most likely do still, argue that apart from a few 'abberations' it was a perfectly lovely 'peculiar institution' that immensely benefited both parties.

241 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:43:21pm

re: #235 iceweasel

Favourited. Adding in the Cornerstone speech and it's not even a hammer, it's a win by T.K.O= total knockout.

Dude... T.K.O stands for "technical knockout"

242 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:43:27pm

re: #237 SpaceJesus

the cornerstone speech is the general sherman of arguments

True that.

243 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:44:40pm

re: #227 JasonA

Well, at least they aren't arguing that slavery never happened...

(Please don't post links saying they are. I can't handle that right now.)

They do like to argue that there were black owners of black slaves, which was true but atypical.

244 Jimmah  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:45:17pm

These neoconfederate revisionists put me in mind of a certain Laibach song:

"What has arisen must come to pass

What is past must be resurrected"

245 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:45:25pm

re: #241 jamesfirecat

Dude... T.K.O stands for "technical knockout"

gurlz

246 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:46:16pm

re: #243 Decatur Deb

They do like to argue that there were black owners of black slaves, which was true but atypical.

They also looove to talk about the role of Africa (and wars there, etc) in the slave trade. And the north's role in the triangle trade as well, of course.

I wonder why?/

247 TedStriker  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:46:17pm

re: #130 Ojoe

Basically, the South was losing its political grip on the country & instead of sharing power they decided to wreck the Union.

Basically, the Civil War was one helluva temper tantrum...one that killed or injured thousands upon thousands on both sides and nearly ripped this country asunder.

/Jefferson Davis and the CSA civil/military leadership were major-league assholes, for the most part...

248 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:46:39pm

re: #241 jamesfirecat

Dude... T.K.O stands for "technical knockout"

Yeah, that. :)

249 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:46:52pm

re: #246 iceweasel

They also looove to talk about the role of Africa (and wars there, etc) in the slave trade. And the north's role in the triangle trade as well, of course.

I wonder why?/

Big time. Yep, Africa's fault. Uh huh, sure.

250 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:46:59pm

re: #175 Decatur Deb

Reine had a bunch of our secessionist declarations after the last iteration of this crap. We probably need to build Troll Hammer II.

Not a bad idea!
I'll start looking.

re: #114 Red Pencil

Just based on my personal experience it seems to me that this is what (at least white) Southern kids have been taught, probably since about 1865. Discussions I have had --- in real life as well as on the internet --- with mature and otherwise apparently intelligent persons of Southern origin have usually gone kind of like this:

Me, incredulous: "So what, you think Lincoln tricked the Confederates into firing on Ft Sumter so he could take away states' rights?"

Southerner: "Yes, that's EXACTLY what happened!"

I'm afraid I have acquired an unfair prejudice against white Southerners as a result, though I know they are but hapless victims of their miseducation.../

You've probably had a few conversations here with some southerners, but since they didn't meet your self-proclaimed prejudice, you may not have recognized them.

251 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:47:16pm

re: #239 albusteve

There's a lot of Vanagons in great shape for sale minus the camper gear around here, I wonder how horrendous the conversion would be...

252 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:48:09pm

re: #249 Gus 802

Big time. Yep, Africa's fault. Uh huh, sure.

////Well if it hadn't been filled to the brim with black people we wouldn't have been able to take enough slaves to make the system work!

253 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:48:23pm

re: #246 iceweasel

They also looove to talk about the role of Africa (and wars there, etc) in the slave trade. And the north's role in the triangle trade as well, of course.

I wonder why?/

Texas textbooks="triangular trade routes".

254 Gusbenz  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:49:23pm

"Either H.L. Mencken was a racist or he was a fascist."

Yes...uh, one of those he was, I'm sure.

255 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:49:37pm

re: #252 jamesfirecat

///Well if it hadn't been filled to the brim with black people we wouldn't have been able to take enough slaves to make the system work!

It's like a cop catching you with heroin and telling the cop, "hey it's not my fault. The guy that sold me it talked me into it."

Or something.

256 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:49:48pm

re: #236 Gus 802

I was thinking that earlier but nixed it because of the Godwin clause. In reality though you are correct. There are similarities in arguments.

yeah, i don't think it's a godwin really to point this out. Both are subsets of the larger class of 'historical revisionism'. Naturally those who engage in historical revisionism of any sort will employ certain methodological parallels.

Pointing that out doesn't assimilate the institution of slavery and the civil war to the horrors of the holocaust of course.

257 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:50:20pm

re: #243 Decatur Deb

They do like to argue that there were black owners of black slaves, which was true but atypical.

Yes, there were, but it doesn't make any more "right" simply because the slave owners were free blacks (or in Louisiana, usually mixed-race creoles).

258 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:50:39pm

re: #249 Gus 802

Big time. Yep, Africa's fault. Uh huh, sure.

There's loads and loads of neoconfederate and white supremacist shit out there talking about that. Not a surprise.

259 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:51:27pm

re: #254 Gusbenz

"Either H.L. Mencken was a racist or he was a fascist."

Yes...uh, one of those he was, I'm sure.

Well, look at what he was saying. At the very least it is factually wrong: The soldiers of the South were, at least in part, fighting to deny others their right to self-determination.

260 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:51:28pm

re: #253 Decatur Deb

Texas textbooks="triangular trade routes".

I was just thinking about that myself. cheers.

261 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:53:22pm

re: #240 iceweasel

There's plenty who did, and most likely do still, argue that apart from a few 'abberations' it was a perfectly lovely 'peculiar institution' that immensely benefited both parties.

Sure, we knocked around a quote of RS McCain's, at some point, where he argued that if slaves behaved themselves, they got treated fine...

262 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:54:20pm

re: #243 Decatur Deb

They do like to argue that there were black owners of black slaves, which was true but atypical.

That might, possibly, be stretched into arguing the practice was not racist (which it was), but it doesn't make slavery good.

263 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:54:34pm

re: #256 iceweasel

yeah, i don't think it's a godwin really to point this out. Both are subsets of the larger class of 'historical revisionism'. Naturally those who engage in historical revisionism of any sort will employ certain methodological parallels.

Pointing that out doesn't assimilate the institution of slavery and the civil war to the horrors of the holocaust of course.

Neither does pointing out the methodological similarities of various activist media and the late Joseph Goebbels. In the case of certain prominent anti-Israel media it may be a distinction without a difference though.

264 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:54:41pm

This article from the noted Marxist rag US News and World Report links slavery to the Texans' break from Mexico. Those freedom-hating Latinos were abolishing it.

[Link: www.usnews.com...]

265 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:55:31pm

re: #251 WindUpBird

There's a lot of Vanagons in great shape for sale minus the camper gear around here, I wonder how horrendous the conversion would be...

I can't imagine not having a camper to start with...I converted a 92 Dodge utility van into a camper with gas, electric etc and I'd do it again, but a camper is just too cool...all the little cubby holes and built in's...my Dodge was pretty cool but just not the same thing...my camper was in flawless condition, except for the exhaust, cooling and HP problems...if you drove it, it would break...simple as that and the frustration factor was off the scale...a love/hate thing for sure...but I dig all the gadgets that come with the camper that are just too difficult to duplicate

266 TedStriker  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:55:41pm

re: #192 Decatur Deb

The US Army has a Ft Lee, Ft Hood, Ft Benning. Ft Polk, Ft. Jackson, Ft Bragg, and Ft AP Hill. It does not have a Ft Forrest.

Well, that whole "Ku Klux Klan" thing kind of complicates things....

///

267 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:56:55pm

re: #252 jamesfirecat

///Well if it hadn't been filled to the brim with black people we wouldn't have been able to take enough slaves to make the system work!

If African kings hadn't been willing to sell slaves for profit, we would never have developed a racially-based system of slavery, and then no one would ever have tried to make me feel guilty about bad stuff happening to black people! IT'S ALL THEIR FAULT!!!!

///

268 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:58:36pm

re: #267 SanFranciscoZionist

If African kings hadn't been willing to sell slaves for profit, we would never have developed a racially-based system of slavery, and then no one would ever have tried to make me feel guilty about bad stuff happening to black people! IT'S ALL THEIR FAULT!!!

///

The colonial powers burned through a lot of Native Americans before they fell upon that solution.

269 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:59:19pm

re: #259 Dark_Falcon

Well, look at what he was saying. At the very least it is factually wrong: The soldiers of the South were, at least in part, fighting to deny others their right to self-determination.

Mencken is falling prey to a fairly standard way of thinking--going with the historical narrative that makes sense if you ignore women, or blacks, or slaves, or Jews, or Catholics, or whatever.

We all do it sometimes. It's good to be aware of it when you do it, though, and in this case, I think it's unconscionable.

270 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:59:25pm

re: #267 SanFranciscoZionist

If African kings hadn't been willing to sell slaves for profit, we would never have developed a racially-based system of slavery, and then no one would ever have tried to make me feel guilty about bad stuff happening to black people! IT'S ALL THEIR FAULT!!!

///

without slavery, there never would have been the Delta blues...somebody will argue that in a perverted way..."slavery gave us Muddy Waters!"

271 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:59:31pm

re: #267 SanFranciscoZionist

If African kings hadn't been willing to sell slaves for profit, we would never have developed a racially-based system of slavery, and then no one would ever have tried to make me feel guilty about bad stuff happening to black people! IT'S ALL THEIR FAULT!!!

///

and can you believe those native americans? having the nerve to be sitting around on OUR god-given land when we got here? how rude. they were just asking for it and deserve what they got.

272 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:59:35pm

re: #262 SanFranciscoZionist

That might, possibly, be stretched into arguing the practice was not racist (which it was), but it doesn't make slavery good.

i don't even think that pointing that out is intended to show that slavery is good or that it wasn't racist.

I think the real point of that is the capering gleeful KKK idiot saying 'black people are animals, they did it to themselves, they deserved it'. That's why they like to emphasise the role of Africa in the trade too.

Most of these arguments-- evil arguments-- are designed with layers like this. You find the genteel polite version in the fake historian who says 'did this happen? why can't we teach the controversy?' or 'no, that's not what happened'. You get the flatout ugly gibbering meaning they always intended to convey on stormfront and elsewhere.

273 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 6:59:35pm

re: #206 SpaceJesus

make me a mod with powers over just this one person i swear ill take care of him; he'll be like my little pet i promise

Yeah, sure it will.....

274 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:00:19pm

re: #273 Floral Giraffe

Yeah, sure it will...


yes and i will name him stacy

275 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:00:22pm

re: #267 SanFranciscoZionist

If African kings hadn't been willing to sell slaves for profit, we would never have developed a racially-based system of slavery, and then no one would ever have tried to make me feel guilty about bad stuff happening to black people! IT'S ALL THEIR FAULT!!!

///

Exactly. A popular meme that became common with the white supremacists right after the movie Roots came out in 1977.

276 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:00:30pm

re: #266 talon_262

Well, that whole "Ku Klux Klan" thing kind of complicates things...

///

Details.

I forgot Ft. Stuart (for a better cavalryman).

277 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:00:46pm

re: #265 albusteve

I can't imagine not having a camper to start with...I converted a 92 Dodge utility van into a camper with gas, electric etc and I'd do it again, but a camper is just too cool...all the little cubby holes and built in's...my Dodge was pretty cool but just not the same thing...my camper was in flawless condition, except for the exhaust, cooling and HP problems...if you drove it, it would break...simple as that and the frustration factor was off the scale...a love/hate thing for sure...but I dig all the gadgets that come with the camper that are just too difficult to duplicate


I guess that's why these guys charge a lot for restos. Rare, intricate, difficult to restore. Yow. Well, if I ever win the lottery, I know where to buy one...

278 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:01:09pm

re: #258 iceweasel

There's loads and loads of neoconfederate and white supremacist shit out there talking about that. Not a surprise.

Quite true. This has been hugely extensive here in Texas for my entire life. It always had a fairly low profile nationally until Obama's election though. It didn't take much of a shift to move it into real prominence, the legions of true believers just became a lot bolder.
I must confess that I saw it coming back in '08 but didn't mention it at the time for two reasons:
1. I thought I might be wrong and was hoping for the best.
2. Like Charles, I didn't intend to vote for Obama anyway, but probably would have if the campaign had lasted just a few more days, ie, long enough to confirm my suspicions about Palin.

279 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:01:19pm

re: #268 Decatur Deb

The colonial powers burned through a lot of Native Americans before they fell upon that solution.

those fools...the Potawatomi where right there all along!

280 TedStriker  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:03:12pm

re: #114 Red Pencil

Just based on my personal experience it seems to me that this is what (at least white) Southern kids have been taught, probably since about 1865. Discussions I have had --- in real life as well as on the internet --- with mature and otherwise apparently intelligent persons of Southern origin have usually gone kind of like this:

Me, incredulous: "So what, you think Lincoln tricked the Confederates into firing on Ft Sumter so he could take away states' rights?"

Southerner: "Yes, that's EXACTLY what happened!"

I'm afraid I have acquired an unfair prejudice against white Southerners as a result, though I know they are but hapless victims of their miseducation.../

Way to go for your overly broad generalizations about us Southerners! As a native (and proud) Nashvillian living right here in the buckle of the Bible Belt, I can tell you "Southerners" are no more monolithic than any other large group in this country.

If you can't see that, then I cordially invite you to bite me...

281 Gusbenz  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:03:40pm

re: #259 Dark_Falcon

Well, look at what he was saying. At the very least it is factually wrong: The soldiers of the South were, at least in part, fighting to deny others their right to self-determination.

You're missing the point. Mencken was attacking what Lincoln said. It is a criticism of certain aspects of his speech, but ultimately a rejoice: "His early speeches were mere empty fire-works—the hollow rodomontades of the era. But in the middle life he purged his style of ornament and it became almost badly simple—and it is for that simplicity that he is remembered today. The Gettysburg speech is at once the shortest and the most famous oration in American history. Put beside it, all the whoopings of the Websters, Sumners and Everetts seem gaudy and silly It is eloquence brought to a pellucid and almost gem-like perfection—the highest emotion reduced to a few poetical phrases. Nothing else precisely like it is to be found in the whole range of oratory. Lincoln himself never even remotely approached it. It is genuinely stupendous."

282 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:03:45pm

re: #277 WindUpBird

I guess that's why these guys charge a lot for restos. Rare, intricate, difficult to restore. Yow. Well, if I ever win the lottery, I know where to buy one...

thanks, I booked those guys...I'll see you there!

283 TedStriker  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:04:07pm

re: #270 albusteve

without slavery, there never would have been the Delta blues...somebody will argue that in a perverted way..."slavery gave us Muddy Waters!"

History and experience shapes us all...

284 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:04:51pm

re: #270 albusteve

without slavery, there never would have been the Delta blues...somebody will argue that in a perverted way..."slavery gave us Muddy Waters!"

Slavery--in that it led to the creation of the black American--gave us a hell of a lot, and, among other things, produced several branches of the best music the world has ever known.

285 TedStriker  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:06:53pm

re: #284 SanFranciscoZionist

Slavery--in that it led to the creation of the black American--gave us a hell of a lot, and, among other things, produced several branches of the best music the world has ever known.

It gave us peanut butter!

286 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:07:25pm

re: #281 Gusbenz

You're missing the point. Mencken was attacking what Lincoln said. It is a criticism of certain aspects of his speech, but ultimately a rejoice: "His early speeches were mere empty fire-works—the hollow rodomontades of the era. But in the middle life he purged his style of ornament and it became almost badly simple—and it is for that simplicity that he is remembered today. The Gettysburg speech is at once the shortest and the most famous oration in American history. Put beside it, all the whoopings of the Websters, Sumners and Everetts seem gaudy and silly It is eloquence brought to a pellucid and almost gem-like perfection—the highest emotion reduced to a few poetical phrases. Nothing else precisely like it is to be found in the whole range of oratory. Lincoln himself never even remotely approached it. It is genuinely stupendous."

So, basically, Mencken's nonsense about the Confederates is completely beside the point, because he's just critiquing Lincoln's oratory.

287 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:07:32pm

re: #276 Decatur Deb

Details.

I forgot Ft. Stuart (for a better cavalryman).

No, Forrest was better than Stuart. Stuart reputation is somewhat marred by his reconnaissance failures in June 1863, which lead to Lee having to fight at Gettysburg, ground not of his choosing. Stuart's failure to defeat the Union cavalry he faced on the 3rd day of that battle also needs to be factored in.

288 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:09:10pm

re: #287 Dark_Falcon

No, Forrest was better than Stuart. Stuart reputation is somewhat marred by his reconnaissance failures in June 1863, which lead to Lee having to fight at Gettysburg, ground not of his choosing. Stuart's failure to defeat the Union cavalry he faced on the 3rd day of that battle also needs to be factored in.

Iirc, right-wing media maven Roger Ailes named his little dog "Jeb Stuart."

289 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:09:26pm

re: #287 Dark_Falcon

That was one screw-up, and thank god for it. He rarely failed Lee, though he's not well-regarded in Chambersburg.

290 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:09:56pm

re: #284 SanFranciscoZionist

Slavery--in that it led to the creation of the black American--gave us a hell of a lot, and, among other things, produced several branches of the best music the world has ever known.

indeed...from the ashes, and all that...a fascinating story too...I'm deep in...the Delta region at the beginning of the last century was little more than slavery by proxie....and the expressive folk art from the deep Gulf is but another spinoff...a crazy world...proof that suffering will produce genius but the irony is excruciating and we have living results

291 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:10:04pm

Once these people get a "majority European-derived society", the Europeans of various extractions will begin killing each other over ancient European grudges.

Poles vs. Germans.

Germans vs. French.

English vs. French, Scots, and Irish.

And the Irish will get the short end of the stick.

So much for "utopia".

292 Jimmah  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:10:12pm

re: #271 SpaceJesus

and can you believe those native americans? having the nerve to be sitting around on OUR god-given land when we got here? how rude. they were just asking for it and deserve what they got.

We offered them Christianity and the possibility to save their souls - before we arrived they were just guaranteed hell-fodder - do we ever see any thanks? ///

293 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:10:37pm

re: #288 Shiplord Kirel

Iirc, right-wing media maven Roger Ailes named his little dog "Jeb Stuart."

Wow, really?

294 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:11:02pm

White House: Built by American slaves.

US Capitol Building: Built by American slaves.

295 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:11:09pm

re: #287 Dark_Falcon

No, Forrest was better than Stuart. Stuart reputation is somewhat marred by his reconnaissance failures in June 1863, which lead to Lee having to fight at Gettysburg, ground not of his choosing. Stuart's failure to defeat the Union cavalry he faced on the 3rd day of that battle also needs to be factored in.

Stuart drubbed Lee himself...good point

296 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:11:28pm

re: #291 Cato the Elder

Once these people get a "majority European-derived society", the Europeans of various extractions will begin killing each other over ancient European grudges.

Poles vs. Germans.

Germans vs. French.

English vs. French, Scots, and Irish.

And the Irish will get the short end of the stick.

So much for "utopia".

"And I don't like anybody very much."

297 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:11:46pm

re: #292 Jimmah

We offered them Christianity and the possibility to save their souls - before we arrived they were just guaranteed hell-fodder - do we ever see any thanks? ///

Well, Phyllis Wheatley wrote a nice poem on that subject--but with a little sting to it.

298 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:12:18pm

re: #289 Decatur Deb

That was one screw-up, and thank god for it. He rarely failed Lee, though he's not well-regarded in Chambersburg.

I should think not, after Confederate cavalry burn that town in 1864. Though by the time that raid happened Stuart was dead, killed at the Battle of Yellow Tavern.

299 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:12:55pm

1776: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal [-- except for the African slave.]"

300 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:13:03pm

re: #294 Gus 802

White House: Built by American slaves.

US Capitol Building: Built by American slaves.

I'll have to check, but IIRC some white supremicist sites and the like (probably free republic too) immediately started screaming about Obama's inauguration, the walk route honouring that, in an extremely ugly way.

301 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:13:59pm

re: #294 Gus 802

White House: Built by American slaves.

US Capitol Building: Built by American slaves.

House of Blues: built by American slaves

302 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:14:09pm

re: #294 Gus 802

White House: Built by American slaves.

US Capitol Building: Built by American slaves.

I have to say, when Obama moved his family in, I had a kind of image of some of the builders smiling down from the beyond as the girls picked out colors for their rooms, and Michelle started drawing up menus.

The descendants have arrived.

303 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:14:15pm

re: #295 albusteve

Stuart drubbed Lee himself...good point

No, he failed to find the Army of the Potomac, which lead to Henry Heath's division running into Gen. Buford Union Cavalry west of Gettysburg.

304 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:15:09pm

re: #303 Dark_Falcon

No, he failed to find the Army of the Potomac, which lead to Henry Heath's division running into Gen. Buford Union Cavalry west of Gettysburg.

same thing is my point...maybe not

305 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:15:26pm

re: #300 iceweasel

I'll have to check, but IIRC some white supremicist sites and the like (probably free republic too) immediately started screaming about Obama's inauguration, the walk route honouring that, in an extremely ugly way.

Hard to tell the two apart.

Yeah, they want to adopt not only revisionist history but gross denial. The fact stands: the White House and the Capitol (amongst other buildings and structures) were built by slave labor.

306 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:16:28pm

re: #296 Decatur Deb

"And I don't like anybody very much."

The only thing that keeps us relatively decent in this country is the sense that we're all Americans, and, to quote the Beatles, "we can work it out".

If the Sons of Cornhole Veterans get their way, kiss it all goodbye.

The big wedge issue for these people? Birtherism.

307 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:16:41pm

re: #302 SanFranciscoZionist

I have to say, when Obama moved his family in, I had a kind of image of some of the builders smiling down from the beyond as the girls picked out colors for their rooms, and Michelle started drawing up menus.

The descendants have arrived.

For many Americans it was a moment of closure. A cathartic moment. For others, unfortunately, not so much.

308 freetoken  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:17:23pm

re: #291 Cato the Elder

Once these people get a "majority European-derived society", the Europeans of various extractions will begin killing each other over ancient European grudges.

I will not doubt your insight here.

But... and this is a big "but" - there will be no "majority European-derived society".

Please go read:

The Changing Demographics of America

I'm thinking of making a Pages entry on this topic. The US will get older and browner. Neo-confederates are idiots as well as morally repugnant.

309 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:17:42pm

re: #288 Shiplord Kirel

Iirc, right-wing media maven Roger Ailes named his little dog "Jeb Stuart."


Oh really?

geeze

310 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:18:52pm

re: #305 Gus 802

Hard to tell the two apart.

Yeah, they want to adopt not only revisionist history but gross denial. The fact stands: the White House and the Capitol (amongst other buildings and structures) were built by slave labor.

Oh, i'm talking about a specific outrageous outrage, involving a plaque that was only very recently installed that acknowledges that. Some part of the inaugural festivities involved a visit to it or something. I believe the starting point of the walk was also something to do with that, or Lincoln, or something else acknowledging same.

there was a specific uprush of neoconfederate revisionism about the role of slave labour in building the WH and capitol, and specifically about the inaugural walk, in the hatesphere about it at that time. A preview of what was to come, I guess.

311 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:19:14pm

The African-American Railroad Experience:

KORNWEIBEL: The entire southern railroad network that was built during the slavery era was built almost exclusively by slaves. Some of the railroads owned slaves, other railroads hired or rented slaves from slave owners. And the most shocking thing that I found was that women as well as men were actually involved in the hard, dangerous, brutal work of railroad construction and continued to work for railroads after they were built in lesser roles. But in the construction phase, little difference between the abilities, considered abilities, for black women, and white women would never have been considered for any of those jobs.

312 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:21:06pm

re: #308 freetoken

I will not doubt your insight here.

But... and this is a big "but" - there will be no "majority European-derived society".

Please go read:

The Changing Demographics of America

I'm thinking of making a Pages entry on this topic. The US will get older and browner. Neo-confederates are idiots as well as morally repugnant.

H.L. Mencken, who seems to have been mentioned on this thread already, in the 1920s confidently predicted the breakup of the United States sometime in the future along largely ethnic lines.

He was not stupid.

The target of the racists for the first breakaway "republic" is the Pacific Northwest.

Don't tell me it couldn't happen.

313 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:21:32pm

re: #302 SanFranciscoZionist

I have to say, when Obama moved his family in, I had a kind of image of some of the builders smiling down from the beyond as the girls picked out colors for their rooms, and Michelle started drawing up menus.

The descendants have arrived.

Oh yes.

314 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:21:34pm

re: #311 Gus 802

The African-American Railroad Experience:

ex slaves made the best cowboys in the cattle days...bar none

315 Jimmah  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:22:08pm

re: #299 Gus 802

1776: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal [-- except for the African slave.]"

Here's something I guarantee you will see racists citing in future, if not already:

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

It seems that everyone except Africans has some Neanderthal DNA in them, according to this research. Some will use this tiny fraction of DNA to try to support their racist claim that blacks are inferior. I have my own theory about what that 2% of neanderthal DNA is contributing to the non-African genome:

316 Gusbenz  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:22:26pm

re: #286 SanFranciscoZionist

So, basically, Mencken's nonsense about the Confederates is completely beside the point, because he's just critiquing Lincoln's oratory.

It isn't nonsense, it's sound in of itself. You can look beyond what Mencken said into whatever aspect of the Confederacy you want, but Mencken isn't addressing the South beyond the point of that it was a group of slave owners whom wanted to govern themselves. "it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves". The Southern's were fighting for the right to retain their slaves, which they saw as threatened by "Northern Aggression". Mencken says that it was they (Southern's) whom fought for the right of self-determination, which is very true. The South fought and attacked the North in an effort to retain the institution of slavery, which was an act of self-determination coached in terms such as "rebellion" (which it was), "insurrection" (which it was), and a whole host of others.

Again, just to reaffirm: I stand firmly on the side of the Union. The Civil War is over and won, and thankfully by the side that needed to win.

317 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:22:30pm

re: #312 Cato the Elder

H.L. Mencken, who seems to have been mentioned on this thread already, in the 1920s confidently predicted the breakup of the United States sometime in the future along largely ethnic lines.

He was not stupid.

The target of the racists for the first breakaway "republic" is the Pacific Northwest.

Don't tell me it couldn't happen.

I can't happen...no way Jose

318 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:24:26pm

re: #315 Jimmah

Here's something I guarantee you will see racists citing in future, if not already:

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

It seems that everyone except Africans has some Neanderthal DNA in them, according to this research. Some will use this tiny fraction of DNA to try to support their racist claim that blacks are inferior. I have my own theory about what that 2% of neanderthal DNA is contributing to the non-African genome:

[Video]

Yikes. How old is that kid? 60?

319 freetoken  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:25:52pm

re: #312 Cato the Elder

The target of the racists for the first breakaway "republic" is the Pacific Northwest.

Don't tell me it couldn't happen.

Far be it from me to try and prove a negative. Of course it is possible, though ethnic division will take a back seat to regional competition, I think.

And yes the white supremacists have for many years looked at Idaho as the holy ground, but that too is doomed I think. Inter-state migration in the US has always been substantial and I see no reason for it to disappear. Indeed, if the majority of AGW models are anywhere near to being correct then I fully expect massive out-migration from the southwest before the end of the century, probably moving north.

320 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:26:48pm

re: #316 Gusbenz

It isn't nonsense, it's sound in of itself. You can look beyond what Mencken said into whatever aspect of the Confederacy you want, but Mencken isn't addressing the South beyond the point of that it was a group of slave owners whom wanted to govern themselves. "it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves". The Southern's were fighting for the right to retain their slaves, which they saw as threatened by "Northern Aggression". Mencken says that it was they (Southern's) whom fought for the right of self-determination, which is very true. The South fought and attacked the North in an effort to retain the institution of slavery, which was an act of self-determination coached in terms such as "rebellion" (which it was), "insurrection" (which it was), and a whole host of others.

Again, just to reaffirm: I stand firmly on the side of the Union. The Civil War is over and won, and thankfully by the side that needed to win.

What they were fighting for was not self-determination, they were fighting for the power to determine the fates of other people who were held as property.

321 Jimmah  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:27:14pm

re: #318 Gus 802

Yikes. How old is that kid? 60?

You can tell he's only going to get worse with age, too.

322 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:27:36pm

re: #310 iceweasel

Oh, i'm talking about a specific outrageous outrage, involving a plaque that was only very recently installed that acknowledges that. Some part of the inaugural festivities involved a visit to it or something. I believe the starting point of the walk was also something to do with that, or Lincoln, or something else acknowledging same.

there was a specific uprush of neoconfederate revisionism about the role of slave labour in building the WH and capitol, and specifically about the inaugural walk, in the hatesphere about it at that time. A preview of what was to come, I guess.

That sounds familiar. I'd have to do an extensive search but I did this quick search and came across some serious insanity over at Free Republic:

"white house" slaves inauguration site:freerepublic.com

They're giving Stormfront a run for their money.

323 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:28:48pm

Traveling for a week or so, and my postings will be erratic. They might also be infrequent. 'Nite, all.

324 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:29:23pm

re: #293 iceweasel

Wow, really?

I remember seeing the critter, a scots terrier, on the Rush Limbaugh TV show in the early 90s. It's hard to google because Ailes often appears in various lists with his fellow GOP consultant Jeb Stuart Magruder.

325 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:29:36pm

As a Baltimore boy, I say leave Mencken out of it.

He was smarter than 27 of me, and smarter than all the rest of you put together.

326 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:30:43pm

re: #312 Cato the Elder

H.L. Mencken, who seems to have been mentioned on this thread already, in the 1920s confidently predicted the breakup of the United States sometime in the future along largely ethnic lines.

He was not stupid.

The target of the racists for the first breakaway "republic" is the Pacific Northwest.

Don't tell me it couldn't happen.

Actually, the pacific northwest has been a huge hotbed of white supremicist, neo-nazi, militia and seperatist movements. Everyone always thinks of places like Idaho and Montana, but there's loads of crossover with the many groups in the PNW.

Dave Neiwert wrote a whole book about this in 1999 that won some awards iirc:
In God's Country: The Patriot Movement and the Pacific Northwest
I haven't read it myself yet but will.
PS hi cato!

327 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:31:32pm

re: #325 Cato the Elder

As a Baltimore boy, I say leave Mencken out of it.

He was smarter than 27 of me, and smarter than all the rest of you put together.

Image: 3776red_balloon.jpg

328 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:31:53pm

My bad. ;)

329 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:32:01pm

re: #325 Cato the Elder

As a Baltimore boy, I say leave Mencken out of it.

He was smarter than 27 of me, and smarter than all the rest of you put together.

if you're so smart, why are you living in Baltimore?
jus asking

330 TedStriker  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:32:16pm

re: #315 Jimmah

I can't watch that YT video right now because I'm still at work, but from the preview, that dude already appears like he's ate up with the dumbass...

331 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:33:57pm

re: #326 iceweasel

Actually, the pacific northwest has been a huge hotbed of white supremicist, neo-nazi, militia and seperatist movements. Everyone always thinks of places like Idaho and Montana, but there's loads of crossover with the many groups in the PNW.

Dave Neiwert wrote a whole book about this in 1999 that won some awards iirc:
In God's Country: The Patriot Movement and the Pacific Northwest
I haven't read it myself yet but will.
PS hi cato!

Yep. I heard that the second you step outside of the Portland boundary you'll hear the sound of a dobro slide. The further out you get it's joined by banjos.

//

332 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:33:58pm

re: #326 iceweasel

yeah, they're all over oregon and washington too which I think we don't typically associate with militia types, is what i mean to say.

333 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:34:19pm

re: #326 iceweasel

Actually, the pacific northwest has been a huge hotbed of white supremicist, neo-nazi, militia and seperatist movements. Everyone always thinks of places like Idaho and Montana, but there's loads of crossover with the many groups in the PNW.

Dave Neiwert wrote a whole book about this in 1999 that won some awards iirc:
In God's Country: The Patriot Movement and the Pacific Northwest
I haven't read it myself yet but will.
PS hi cato!

Eastern Washington and Eastern Oregon gots some REAL crazy, it is true o_o

There's also a lot of racist reactionaries in Hillsboro, (I HAD TO WORK OUT THERE FOR A WHILE ARRGH) which is the suburb of Portland where nobody there actually goes to Portland. it's like a completely different state.

334 missy2432  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:34:30pm

Y rlly shld rd wht Lncln sd.
Th wr ws bt prsrvng th nn. T prphrs...
'f cld prsrv th nn wtht frng th slvs wld'.


hv qstn t sk f lbrls cn nswr ntllgntly wtht spwng nvctvs...
Whr wld blcks b f thy hd rmnd n frc?
n whch cntry wld thy b lvng, fghtng trbl wrfr nd strvng?

Lk t Sth frc nd Zmbbw.
frc, 'th drk cntnnt'. wndr why.
ctlly, thy lv mch s thy d n r nnr cts.

Why s vryn ls rspnsbl fr th plght f blcks, cnnt thy tk cr f thmslvs?

Whts hv srvvd, why cnnt th blcks d nythng bt brd?

f crs lbrls wld nvr gr, nr wld thy vr dmt tht whts/rpns wr slvs s wll.

Gnrtns f ppl hv fght gnst ths tht hv nslvd thm, nly blcks nd smn t d t fr thm.

Chck th hstry f rp nd s.

335 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:34:53pm

Incoming!

336 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:35:27pm

re: #334 missy2432

Good bye.

337 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:35:40pm

re: #334 missy2432

Missy, you are the PROBLEM with America.

Yes.

338 TedStriker  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:35:47pm

re: #331 Gus 802

Yep. I heard that the second you step outside of the Portland boundary you'll hear the sound of a dobro slide. The further out you get it's joined by banjos.

//

Just hope you don't look like Ned Beatty...

///

339 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:35:49pm
Lincoln was actually “a bigger racist than I ever knew,” James said of the author of the Emancipation Proclamation.

I guess Mr James is almost as old as I am, give or take two millennia.

340 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:36:20pm

re: #334 missy2432

HOLY FUCK

341 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:36:49pm

re: #332 iceweasel

yeah, they're all over oregon and washington too which I think we don't typically associate with militia types, is what i mean to say.

the notion that supremists can take over the Northwest, or Idaho, or even Boise is simply crackpot...I know you don't think this is possible

342 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:36:54pm

re: #334 missy2432

Y rll shld rd wht Lncln sd. Th wr ws bt prsrvng th nn. T prphrs... 'f cld prsrv th nn wtht frng th slvs wld'. hv qstn t sk f lbrls cn nswr ntllgntl wtht spwng nvctvs... Whr wld blcks b f th hd rmnd n frc? n whch cntr wld th b lvng, fghtng trbl wrfr nd strvng? Lk t Sth frc nd Zmbbw. frc, 'th drk cntnnt'. wndr wh. ctll, th lv mch s th d n r nnr cts. Wh s vrn ls rspnsbl fr th plght f blcks, cnnt th tk cr f thmslvs? Whts hv srvvd, wh cnnt th blcks d nthng bt brd? f crs lbrls wld nvr gr, nr wld th vr dmt tht whts/rpns wr slvs s wll. Gnrtns f ppl hv fght gnst ths tht hv nslvd thm, nl blcks nd smn t d t fr thm. Chck th hstr f rp nd s.

Sphincter say what?

343 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:37:16pm

re: #334 missy2432

Missy misses the mark.

344 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:37:31pm

re: #334 missy2432

Wow, a real, live, overt racist. I thought you people only showed up on Stormfront. And you can just go right back there, too.

345 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:37:35pm

Missy is a sock who finally found a clean IP address.

LGF really freaks people out eh.

346 Jimmah  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:38:07pm

re: #334 missy2432

Bye bye, moron.

347 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:38:14pm

re: #334 missy2432

I hope you're not missing your KKK meeting on our account.

348 freetoken  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:38:55pm

Well, that one didn't last long. In by 7:12PM, out by 7:30.

Easy come, easy go.

349 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:39:03pm

re: #345 Stanley Sea

Missy is a sock who finally found a clean IP address.

LGF really freaks people out eh.

Because I cannot believe that was someone's views. Well I can, but to post it here?

350 TedStriker  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:39:47pm

re: #334 missy2432

Missy, you can just cordially fuck off...

351 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:40:11pm

POISON

352 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:40:31pm

re: #331 Gus 802

Yep. I heard that the second you step outside of the Portland boundary you'll hear the sound of a dobro slide. The further out you get it's joined by banjos.

//

well, depends.

If you head east-side, out of Portland you got Gresham, which is basically just SE Portland (hippies, boring PNW families with Subies and Volvos, pleasant rednecks, stoners, all of the above) but cheaper. If you head east-side? You get exactly what you describe: Hillsboro. Different planet. Racist crazy. Unrecognizable. I was at WORK and I was hearing my former-meth-addict coworker describe how Hillsboro was way nicer before it was "infested by Mexicans". I complained to my boss. She just shrugged in that way that told me "I don't disagree." Then I transferred to Portland.

South, you get Lake Oswego, which got its nickname "Lake No-Negro" for a reason. Richy-rich mcMansion suburbanites in mercedes SUVs. Not really white-supremacist country so much as gated-community-we-wish-we-were-in-Beverly-Hills country.

353 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:40:34pm

re: #348 freetoken

Well, that one didn't last long. In by 7:12PM, out by 7:30.

Easy come, easy go.

The Troll is still here, so it may spew again. Find Spacejesus, and have him get the Flounceapult ready.

354 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:40:46pm

re: #347 JasonA

I hope you're not missing your KKK meeting on our account.

WIN.

355 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:40:55pm

re: #334 missy2432

Where do you thumbdick shitheads even come from

356 TedStriker  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:41:31pm

re: #355 WindUpBird

Where do you thumbdick shitheads even come from

LOL!

357 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:41:42pm

re: #353 Dark_Falcon

The Troll is still here, so it may spew again. Find Spacejesus, and have him get the Flounceapult ready.

Does it really count as a flounce if they signed up literally less than an hour ago? More like taking a dump on the porch. And blaming it on the black kids.

358 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:42:00pm

re: #351 Stanley Sea

POISON

I guess the cat dragged in some sheetwearers :D

359 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:42:01pm

re: #341 albusteve

the notion that supremists can take over the Northwest, or Idaho, or even Boise is simply crackpot...I know you don't think this is possible

of course not! Agree with freetoken's post above. Hope you're feeling well albusteve and that the grandbaby is too.

360 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:42:32pm

re: #334 missy2432

By the way, has that backwards "B" you carved in your face healed up yet?

361 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:42:32pm

re: #357 JasonA

Does it really count as a flounce if they signed up literally less than an hour ago? More like taking a dump on the porch. And blaming it on the black kids.

if they just signed up, it's less of a flounce and more of a shart

shart = shit + fart

362 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:43:23pm

re: #352 WindUpBird

well, depends.

If you head east-side, out of Portland you got Gresham, which is basically just SE Portland (hippies, boring PNW families with Subies and Volvos, pleasant rednecks, stoners, all of the above) but cheaper. If you head east-side? You get exactly what you describe: Hillsboro. Different planet. Racist crazy. Unrecognizable. I was at WORK and I was hearing my former-meth-addict coworker describe how Hillsboro was way nicer before it was "infested by Mexicans". I complained to my boss. She just shrugged in that way that told me "I don't disagree." Then I transferred to Portland.

South, you get Lake Oswego, which got its nickname "Lake No-Negro" for a reason. Richy-rich mcMansion suburbanites in mercedes SUVs. Not really white-supremacist country so much as gated-community-we-wish-we-were-in-Beverly-Hills country.

True. I drove into Oregon from Northern California in the early 90s. It struck me as being very friendly with a lot people saying hi to me which was a rather different experience after living in The City. This is based on me having long hair and all that jazz but it was friendly. Didn't really stay long enough to base anything on personal experience. Eastern Oregon was almost deserted as we drove into Idaho.

363 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:43:27pm

re: #341 albusteve

the notion that supremists can take over the Northwest, or Idaho, or even Boise is simply crackpot...I know you don't think this is possible

I think they might make a serious attempt on a county or two in the near future.

364 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:43:58pm

re: #341 albusteve

the notion that supremists can take over the Northwest, or Idaho, or even Boise is simply crackpot...I know you don't think this is possible

Oh they won't take over, but out in the eastern half of WA, there's some real weird thinkin'...

365 TedStriker  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:44:03pm

re: #342 Gus 802

Sphincter say what?

Wow...how'd your quote of Missy's brain droppings get disemvoweled, but the original post hasn't been?

366 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:44:47pm

re: #360 JasonA

By the way, has that backwards "B" you carved in your face healed up yet?

I'm more concerned with the flapping cut under her nose.

367 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:44:48pm

re: #359 iceweasel

of course not! Agree with freetoken's post above. Hope you're feeling well albusteve and that the grandbaby is too.

I had another surgery Fri...I may not lose my leg after all, but at this point I don't care...my little pirate is doing fine, he's discovered his feet...ha!

368 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:44:51pm

re: #362 Gus 802

True. I drove into Oregon from Northern California in the early 90s. It struck me as being very friendly with a lot people saying hi to me which was a rather different experience after living in The City. This is based on me having long hair and all that jazz but it was friendly. Didn't really stay long enough to base anything on personal experience. Eastern Oregon was almost deserted as we drove into Idaho.

Oregon is a lot more friendly than Seattle, too. Seattle has this sort of insular vibe that strikes one as very cold, Oregon, much less so.

369 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:45:04pm

re: #365 talon_262

Wow...how'd your quote of Missy's brain droppings get disemvoweled, but the original post hasn't been?

I used an online disemvoweler. There are several. I used this one:

[Link: www.nmichaels.org:8080...]

370 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:46:37pm

re: #363 Cato the Elder

I think they might make a serious attempt on a county or two in the near future.

watch them go for the liquor stores first

371 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:46:53pm

re: #334 missy2432

So. Anything else you care to add Johnny Rebel? Or are you busy sewing up your white sheets for tonight's KKK gathering?

372 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:46:57pm

re: #360 JasonA

By the way, has that backwards "B" you carved in your face healed up yet?

ahahahahaha.

missy's saturday night.

373 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:48:06pm

re: #367 albusteve

albusteve! Friday? Dang, I would've sent you flowers. Glad it turned out well & that the pirate sees his feet.

374 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:48:30pm

re: #334 missy2432

I expect you to be history yourself before I can post this but I'll give it a shot. I hope you stay a while, we haven't had a troll this good since Dylan Avery showed up here back in '03.


Where would blacks be if they had remained in Africa?
In which country would they be living, fighting tribal warfare and starving?


They might have come here of their own free will as paid laborers, given the great need for such in the cotton kingdom.

Look at South Africa and Zimbabwe.
Africa, 'the dark continent'. I wonder why.
Actually, they live much as they do in our inner cities.


Well, we have a much smarter president than they do.

Why is everyone else responsible for the plight of blacks, cannot they take care of themselves?


Quite a few do take care of themselves. In the form of doctors, soldiers, teachers and such, they also take care of you.


Whites have survived, why cannot the blacks do anything but breed?


Maybe I'm missing something, but survival and breeding would seem to be irrevocably connected.

Of course liberals would never agree, nor would they ever admit that whites/Europeans were slaves as well.


Of course they would: Dittoheads for example are slaves of the Limbaugh media machine.

Generations of people have fought against those that have enslaved them, only blacks need someone to do it for them.


Roman slaves didn't have much luck freeing themselves by force, just ask Spartacus.

Check the history of Europe and Asia.


At the door you mean? No thanks.

375 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:48:45pm

re: #373 Stanley Sea

albusteve! Friday? Dang, I would've sent you flowers. Glad it turned out well & that the pirate sees his feet.

thanks

376 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:49:38pm

Ire: #367 albusteve

I had another surgery Fri...I may not lose my leg after all, but at this point I don't care...my little pirate is doing fine, he's discovered his feet...ha!

My nephew is right about at the point where he's able to cause real havoc, my brother is aging like the Portrait of Dorian Gray trying to keep up

377 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:50:58pm

re: #367 albusteve

I had another surgery Fri...I may not lose my leg after all, but at this point I don't care...my little pirate is doing fine, he's discovered his feet...ha!

Wow! Did not know that! Good luck!
and congrats on your little pirate. :)

378 Irenicum  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:52:27pm

re: #334 missy2432

Looks like this newbie is gonna die in its infancy. Good riddance.

379 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:53:23pm

re: #334 missy2432

Godalmighty. Where did you come from?

380 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:53:30pm

re: #378 Irenicum

Looks like this newbie is gonna die in its infancy. Good riddance.


So many of them have shitty AOL names too

Bob373983 and Jim1816

381 TedStriker  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:53:33pm

re: #369 Gus 802

I used an online disemvoweler. There are several. I used this one:

[Link: www.nmichaels.org:8080...]

Ahh....

382 jaunte  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:54:01pm

Come out missy, we can see you're still here.

383 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:54:28pm

re: #379 SanFranciscoZionist

Godalmighty. Where did you come from?

Montgomery, maybe Birmingham

384 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:54:42pm

re: #369 Gus 802

I used an online disemvoweler. There are several. I used this one:

[Link: www.nmichaels.org:8080...]

That's a terrific idea; we should probably all start doing that if we're going to quote part of any troll at all. (less deletions for stinky)

385 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:54:42pm

re: #374 Shiplord Kirel

Great smackdown, SK.

386 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:54:48pm

re: #367 albusteve

Best of luck to you! I hope it all goes well.
For your little pirate too!

387 researchok  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:55:04pm

re: #334 missy2432

Fascinating ideas, Missy.

Tell us, how do you feel about Jews?

388 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:55:47pm

re: #385 Dark_Falcon

Great smackdown, SK.

Thanks, DF. I sure screwed up the coding though, rushing to get in before the kill.

389 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:55:54pm

re: #384 iceweasel

That's a terrific idea; we should probably all start doing that if we're going to quote part of any troll at all. (less deletions for stinky)

Here's another one...

[Link: novalis.org...]

390 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:56:08pm

re: #387 researchok

Fascinating ideas, Missy.

Tell us, how do you feel about Jews?

She can't hear you. The crackles from the burning cross are too loud.

391 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:56:30pm

re: #386 Floral Giraffe

Best of luck to you! I hope it all goes well.
For your little pirate too!

I'm busting my ass trying to save my leg, that's all....you would too
and thanks

392 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:57:18pm

re: #388 Shiplord Kirel

Thanks, DF. I sure screwed up the coding though, rushing to get in before the kill.

you turned the knife nicely

393 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:58:17pm

re: #334 missy2432

I believe there's a phrase for people like you who show to post this sort of not even coded racist tripe...

"One and done" if I recall correctly....

394 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:58:54pm

re: #372 iceweasel

ahahahahaha.

missy's saturday night.

Oh my. Omigod.

You just reminded me of an ancient song form. Here's a German version.

Lyrics and translation coming right up.

395 Irenicum  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:59:14pm

re: #391 albusteve

Steve, I had no idea you were going through this. I'm so sorry and hope you heal up quickly.

396 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:59:22pm

re: #391 albusteve

Yes, and we're rooting for your best luck, here!

397 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:59:33pm

re: #334 missy2432

That is about as disgusting a piece of shit as I've ever read in my life.
And I resent your implication that this is how conservatives think, because many most assuredly do not.

398 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:00:05pm

re: #380 WindUpBird

So many of them have shitty AOL names too

Bob373983 and Jim1816

Yep. My guess is that it's because they always register with a throwaway anyway. missy118976 whatever the fuck never used that email or handle before for anything, and is just here to take a dump on the thread like all trolls.

You need an email to register most places. So they go to yahoo or wherever and type in a bland first name, and are told 'missy/missy111 already exists. Would you like to be missy2^%$435? missy116784 missy 22657? pick one--'

They select the first one and since they're 1) trolls and 2) lazy they don't even bother to change the nic when they register at the site they want to troll.

Quite possible that if you google we'll discover that missy's rant is a cut and paste compiled from stormfront, etc.

Trolls. So lazy, so bad.

399 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:01:00pm

re: #392 albusteve

you turned the knife nicely

She deserves every bit of it. Racism is ugly and intensely corrosive to our nation. A racist like that needs to be told what a rotten shit they are being.

400 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:01:07pm

re: #398 iceweasel

Yep. My guess is that it's because they always register with a throwaway anyway. missy118976 whatever the fuck never used that email or handle before for anything, and is just here to take a dump on the thread like all trolls.

You need an email to register most places. So they go to yahoo or wherever and type in a bland first name, and are told 'missy/missy111 already exists. Would you like to be missy2^%$435? missy116784 missy 22657? pick one--'

They select the first one and since they're 1) trolls and 2) lazy they don't even bother to change the nic when they register at the site they want to troll.

Quite possible that if you google we'll discover that missy's rant is a cut and paste compiled from stormfront, etc.

Trolls. So lazy, so bad.

My guess is that "Missy" is a troll but the real McCoy.

401 albusteve  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:01:39pm

re: #395 Irenicum

re: #396 Floral Giraffe

thank you...much appreciated, really

402 Gus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:01:42pm

Blocked.

403 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:02:04pm

And the quarterback is toast.

404 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:03:08pm

And the scumbag troll is blocked. Good riddance to racist rubbish.

405 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:03:30pm

re: #400 Gus 802

My guess is that "Missy" is a troll but the real McCoy.

Yeah, I don't think you post something like that unless you mean it.

406 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:03:33pm

My theory a sock to drop the worst of the worst to get a react.

But what to do with the react?

Fail

407 abolitionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:04:11pm

re: #334 missy2432

You really should read what Lincoln said.
The war was about preserving the union. To paraphrase...
'If I could preserve the union without freeing the slaves I would'.
[snip]

In the interest of accuracy:

Executive Mansion, Washington,
August 22, 1862.

Hon. Horace Greeley.
Dear Sir: I have just read yours of the 19th, addressed to myself through the New York Tribune. If there be in it any statements or assumptions of fact which I may know to be erroneous, I do not now and here controvert them. If there be in it any inferences which I may believe to be falsely drawn, I do not now and here argue against them. If there be perceptible in it an impatient and dictatorial tone, I waive it in deference to an old friend, whose heart I have always supposed to be right. As to the policy I "seem to be pursuing," as you say, I have not meant to leave any one in doubt.

I would save the Union. I would save it in the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the National authority can be restored, the nearer the Union will be "The Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union and is not[Pg 378] either to save or destroy Slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could do it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about Slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save this Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less, whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause; and I shall do more, whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views. I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty, and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men, everywhere, could be free.

Yours,
A. Lincoln.

[Link: www.gutenberg.org...]

408 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:04:37pm

re: #400 Gus 802

My guess is that "Missy" is a troll but the real McCoy.

Oh yes. Don't mean to imply that missy doesn't believe what he or she posted, but that the whole intent of posting it here is to troll: to take a dump on the thread, to get a reaction. There's no way this person believes they'll convert anyone to their Glorious Cause or that their views would be accepted here.

409 researchok  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:07:35pm

The only cause she/he/it might have has nothing to do with reality, only hate and the displacement of their own failures.

See my #100

410 researchok  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:08:08pm

re: #408 iceweasel

Ice, #409 was a reply to you.

411 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:09:36pm

re: #400 Gus 802

My guess is that "Missy" is a troll but the real McCoy.

The real (other) McCain?

412 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:10:44pm

re: #410 researchok

Ice, #409 was a reply to you.

oh thank you! Sorry, missed your 100 at the time(I'm multitasking). great post btw, if i were you I would crosspost it on your blog and/or a page here. Besides then we can all upding it again. I will! :)

413 researchok  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:12:23pm

re: #412 iceweasel

oh thank you! Sorry, missed your 100 at the time(I'm multitasking). great post btw, if i were you I would crosspost it on your blog and/or a page here. Besides then we can all upding it again. I will! :)

Thanks. I'll do that in the AM.

414 Irenicum  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:13:08pm

Obituary for missy2432:

missy 2432 was born into this world earlier this evening at 7:10 pm PST. Upon being slapped on the ass the newborn immediately let loose with a vile screech that burned the ears of anyone within earshot. This newborn was so seriously deformed in body and spirit that the doctors and nurses immediately realized it didn't have much of a life expectancy. She succumbed to her own malignity less than an hour into her young life. Any donations may be sent to SPLC or the ACLU.

415 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:15:55pm

Missy is probably Stacy McCain's little girl. She's supposed to be on her honeymoon now.

416 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:19:37pm

re: #415 Alouette

On her knees, getting some pain instead!
LOL!

417 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:23:06pm

re: #416 Floral Giraffe

On her knees, getting some pain instead!
LOL!

Sent on her way with the marks from FG's riding crop upon her fanny.

418 researchok  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:23:26pm

re: #416 Floral Giraffe

On her knees, getting some pain instead!
LOL!

You won't get much in the way of a response on here.

But we all want to.

419 Four More Tears  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:24:12pm

re: #417 Dark_Falcon

Sent on her way with the marks from FG's riding crop upon her fanny.

Well FG better wash that thing before coming near me with it...

420 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:28:21pm

re: #419 JasonA

LOL!
*smack*

421 ryannon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:34:35pm

re: #120 SanFranciscoZionist

You do understand that 'their way of life' is, in fact, a euphemism for 'using slave labor', and 'not having to pay their credit cards off'?

Plus having legal fireworks.

422 ryannon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:35:54pm

re: #222 albusteve

I love my 03 Jetta, one of several VWs I've owned...there are tons of campers out here, mosty beat, but not all of them...I'm a camper drooler and when I see an old air cooled box top I go nuts...I'd love to rebuild one, but it's gotta have some HP...what a cool buggy to own...my whole personna went in the tank when I lost my camper

In San Francisco?

Could have a hit song there.

423 ryannon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:36:30pm

ryannon talking to self again.

424 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:40:43pm

re: #423 ryannon

You COULD move upthread...

425 iceweasel  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:43:29pm

re: #416 Floral Giraffe

On her knees, getting some pain instead!
LOL!

bad girl! :)

426 ryannon  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 8:51:20pm

re: #424 Floral Giraffe

You COULD move upthread...

I COULD and I DID.

Except to come back and say this:

You've never woken up and continued reading where you left off in a thread before realizing that there was a new one?

Guess not.

427 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 9:05:33pm

re: #425 iceweasel

bad girl! :)

Hee hee!

428 Racer X  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 9:14:05pm

re: #407 abolitionist

And that puts Lincoln's quote in context, and explains what his goals actually were. Of course there are those who only see -

If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it;

And completely ignore the rest -

and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could do it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that.

He is pretty clear on what he believes -

I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty, and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men, everywhere, could be free.

Yours,
A. Lincoln.

429 JCrow  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 9:18:24pm

Gee, I am the descendant of a Confederate Cavalryman who fought Sherman as he made his way through the South. I am totally appalled by the contemporary clowns who claim the Confederacy as THEIR birthright.

The war certainly was about slavery in the sense that slavery underpinned and supported the economic system of the Confederate agricultural state. I suspect that most who enlisted in the Confederate forces may not have seen slavery as THE issue as the Southern patriotism of the time took slavery for granted and instead tended to frame the issues in terms of state's rights, etc.

The US Civil War never gets viewed in the way persons of the time viewed it. Instead it is seen through various revisionist spectacles that frame it in terms of a righteous Northern struggle for human rights or an equally righteous Southern struggle for state's rights or some other cavalier notion. All of that is egregious bullshit that denies the realities experienced by the persons who participated in this tragic struggle.

Should I be required to take sides in the current debate my inclination would be to aim a flame thrower at the fools who romanticize the Confederates such as the Sons of the Confederacy. They are the most delusional and misguided of those who would claim that the war between the states has some direct relevance to their distorted "issues".

430 abolitionist  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 9:42:29pm

re: #429 JCrow

Pretty good 1st post. Welcome.

431 Ojoe  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 9:43:56pm

re: #334 missy2432

You must have had quite a vowel movement.

432 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 9:59:12pm

re: #428 Racer X


that's because they are the most dishonest and vile kind of people

433 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jul 11, 2010 10:00:26pm

I wonder if there's a congressman out there with the balls to get congress to officially declare that the civil war was fought over slavery. that would be nice.

434 What, me worry?  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 8:21:36am

Sorry I missed this last night.

Funny that I never in my life heard any of this until I started reading rightwing blogs. I never heard anyone disparage the name of Lincoln or attempt to re-write this country's history, especially the lessons of the civil war. They do the same thing to JFK, with book after book about how he was addicted to painkillers, did LSD, smoked grass and was a philanderer.

It wasn't enough to assassinating their bodies. They have to assassinate their characters. These winguts are determined to destroy the legacy of these great patriots, along with the cause of freedom for all people in this country.

435 CapeCoddah  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 9:46:27am

Good afternoon everyone.. Just a few quotes from President Lincoln..:

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything."

-Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois, September 18, 1858 (The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, pp. 145-146.)

Not only was Lincoln a racist, he allowed the Confederacy to keep slavery:
"No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give Congress the power to abolish or interfere within any state with the domestic institutions thereof, including that a person's held to labor or service by laws of said State."
-Abraham Lincoln-March of 1861
and
"The War is waged by the government of the United States not in the spirit of conquest or subjugation, nor for the purpose of overthrowing or interfering with the rights or institutions of the states, but to defend and protect the Union."

-This resolution was passed unanimously by Congress on July 23, 1861.
The above quote contradicts the quote below where Lincoln says the negroe race is the reason for the Civil War:
“See our present condition—the country engaged in war! Our White men cutting one another’s throats! And then consider what we know to be the truth. But for your race among us there could not be war, although many men engaged on either side do not care for you one way or another. “Why should the people of your race be colonized, and where? Why should they leave this country? This is, perhaps, the first question for proper consideration. You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss, but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think your race suffer very greatly, many of them by living among us, while ours suffer from your presence. In a word, we suffer on each side. If this be admitted, it affords a reason at least why we should be separated. It is better for both, therefore, to be separated.”
— Spoken at the White House to a group of black community leaders, August 14th, 1862, from COLLECTED WORKS OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN, Vol 5, page 371.

Lincoln did not care about freeing the slaves! He incorrectly believed there was another reason that threatened the Union:
"If I could save the Union without freeing any slaves, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it, and if I could do it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also so that"
-Lincoln, (Voices of America, p.138).
Here is the last quote from Lincoln to his friend, the Vice President of the Confederacy:
"Do the people of the South really entertain fear that a Republican administration would directly or indirectly interfere with their slaves, or with them about their slaves? If they do, I wish to assure you that once, as a friend, and still I hope not as an enemy, that there is no cause for such fears. The South would be in no more danger in this respect than it was in the days of Washington."

-Abraham Lincoln to Alexander Stephens-Vice President of the Confederacy. Springfield, Ills., Dec. 22, 1860. Public and Private Letters of Alexander Stephens, p. 150.

436 garhighway  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 9:46:50am

re: #433 SpaceJesus

I wonder if there's a congressman out there with the balls to get congress to officially declare that the civil war was fought over slavery. that would be nice.

There are plenty, but in doing so they would immediately be dismissed as left-wingers.

437 What, me worry?  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 11:19:22am

#435, You're a real piece of work. Why don't you print the whole speech and stop slandering this great man!
[Link: www.nps.gov...]
September 18, 1858
Answering Douglas' charge made in Jonosboro that he favored racial equality, Lincoln explained his views on race.... Lincoln gave a detailed "history" of the 'Nebraska Bill' [Kansas-Nebraska Act] and explained a conspiracy existed to nationalize slavery. Douglas denied any conspiracy with Roger Taney, Franklin Pierce, and James Buchanon and restated the charge that Lincoln favored equality of the races: “While I was at the hotel to-day, an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I was really in favor of producing a perfect equality between the negroes and white people. [Great Laughter.] While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it. I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied every thing. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. [Cheers and laughter.] My understanding is that I can just let her alone. I am now in my fiftieth year, and I certainly never have had a black woman for either a slave or a wife. So it seems to me quite possible for us to get along without making either slaves or wives of negroes. I will add to this that I have never seen, to my knowledge, a man, woman or child who was in favor of producing a perfect equality, social and political, between negroes and white men. I recollect of but one distinguished instance that I ever heard of so frequently as to be entirely satisfied of its correctness-and that is the case of Judge Douglas's old friend Col. Richard M. Johnson. [Laughter.] I will also add to the remarks I have made (for I am not going to enter at large upon this subject,) that I have never had the least apprehension that I or my friends would marry negroes if there was no law to keep them from it, [laughter] but as Judge Douglas and his friends seem to be in great apprehension that they might, if there were no law to keep them from it, [roars of laughter] I give him the most solemn pledge that I will to the very last stand by the law of this State, which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes. [Continued laughter and applause.] I will add one further word, which is this: that I do not understand that there is any place where an alteration of the social and political relations of the negro and the white man can be made except in the State Legislature-not in the Congress of the United States-and as I do not really apprehend the approach of any such thing myself, and as Judge Douglas seems to be in constant horror that some such danger is rapidly approaching, I propose as the best means to prevent it that the Judge be kept at home and placed in the State Legislature to fight the measure. [Uproarious laughter and applause.] I do not propose dwelling longer at this time on this subject.”

438 What, me worry?  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 11:22:23am

re: #435 CapeCoddah

Lincoln's speech with Douglas was cynical and the crowd roared with laughter. Douglas himself built his campaign against him on the fact that Lincoln wanted EQUALITY with the races! But you and far too many others have the audacity to twist his words with your revisionist history. I for one won't let this stand without saying something.

439 CitadelGrad  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 11:35:19am

If Lincoln's sole purpose was to end slavery, why didn't he and his allies in Congress simply introduce a constitutional amendment that would have made slavery unconstitutional? I guess it was just easier to invade the South and initiate a war that killed more than 600,000. Lincoln didn't seem to have much use for the Constitution anyway. Just ask the Maryland and Missouri legislatures, a hell of a lot of jailed journalists and habeus corpus.

440 Gus  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 11:41:22am

re: #435 CapeCoddah

Good afternoon everyone.. Just a few quotes from President Lincoln..:

Not only was Lincoln a racist, he allowed the Confederacy to keep slavery:

"No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give Congress the power to abolish or interfere within any state with the domestic institutions thereof, including that a person's held to labor or service by laws of said State."
-Abraham Lincoln-March of 1861

Factcheck:

This is not attributable to Abraham Lincoln. It is in fact attributable to Thomas Corwin and it is from the Corwin Amendment which reads:

No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State.

Lincoln did support it in 1861 in order to avoid hostilities with the South:

Abraham Lincoln and the Corwin Amendment

In his inaugural address, Lincoln noted Congressional approval of the Corwin amendment and stated that he "had no objection to its being made express and irrevocable." This was not a departure from Lincoln's views on slavery at that time. Lincoln followed the Republican platform from the Chicago convention. He believed that the major problem between the North and South was the inability to reach agreement with respect to the expansion of slavery. Lincoln did not believe that he had the power to eliminate slavery where it already existed. However, Southerners feared that a Republican administration would take direct aim at the institution of slavery. By tacitly supporting Corwin's amendment, Lincoln hoped to convince the South that he would not move to abolish slavery and, at the minimum, keep the border states of Maryland, Virginia, Tennessee, Kentucky, and North Carolina from seceding.

However we also find in the same article:

...While personally opposed to slavery, Lincoln believed the Constitution supported it. His support of the Corwin amendment attempted to codify that belief, but the Civil War changed his opinion on presidential power. Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation in 1862, and in 1865, vigorously worked to pass the actual thirteenth amendment, which declared slavery illegal.

Otherwise, the attribution of this amendment to Lincoln is 100 percent false and belongs none other than to Ohio Representative Thomas Corwin.

441 CapeCoddah  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 11:46:09am

re: #438 marjoriemoon

Actually, ignoring the truth and written history is the revisionist version. Lincoln was a great man. He was also what would be considered today a racist. His own words reflect that fact.
Recorded history also proves, without a shadow of a doubt, that slavery was not the main issue of the civil war. It became a central issue, but, the actual economic and political issues that started the war had been brewing for almost 40 years before it began.
President Lincoln's only concern was the preservation of the Union.
Whatever he had to do to accomplish that, he did. He made that very clear. 11 states had seceded, fracturing the Union. He did what he had to to put that union back together. His own words.
History is a funny thing. Lots of factors are forgotten or ignored to make it either more palatable to some, or, in the case of the Civil War, with the immensely important Emancipation proclamation, other causes and facts leading to the war are simply ignored, because folks feel that seizing on the slavery issue sums up the war in and of itself. While it may seem to define the war today, there are a lot of factors that led to it, slavery was one of the least issues at the time. You can call me whatever names you want to. I spent a good chunk of my life studying the issue, reading documents, news accounts and other material from the period, contained in the Library of Congress, Harvard University library and archives (where I graduated from with a degree in history) and from several other sources just as reliable. The revisionist part of the history of the civil war comes from folks, who, not meaning to, think all there was to it was what they learned in high school history class. In fact, it was much, much more than that, without taking anything away from the importance of the slavery issue. Understand this, Lincoln said what he meant, and meant what he said. If preserving the Union would have been accomplished by keeping slavery in tact, he would have done that without blinking. He said so himself.
I am not trying to repudiate a great man at all, just being factual.

442 What, me worry?  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 11:47:19am

re: #440 Gus 802

Otherwise, the attribution of this amendment to Lincoln is 100 percent false and belongs none other than to Ohio Representative Thomas Corwin.

They're a bunch of liars, Gus. Stinking, racist liars. I'm so glad I didn't read this BS last night or I never would have gotten any sleep.

Why, if Lincoln was such a racist, did his opponents of the war constantly criticize him for refusing to compromise on the slavery issue?

He is and will forever be one of our greatest presidents and that really gets under the skin of some people.

443 CapeCoddah  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 11:47:51am

Gus, who was president in 1861? Lincoln was. It was passed under the Lincoln administration. He is responsible for it.

444 Gus  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 11:51:19am

re: #443 CapeCoddah

Gus, who was president in 1861? Lincoln was. It was passed under the Lincoln administration. He is responsible for it.

He had no power over that amendment. You attributed it to Lincoln and instead it was really from Corwin. Lincoln went along with it at the time to avoid seceding states with the hope of ridding the nation of slavery in the long term.

It was never ratified. It did not pass. So your claim that it passed is again, false.

445 Gus  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 11:55:10am

re: #442 marjoriemoon

They're a bunch of liars, Gus. Stinking, racist liars. I'm so glad I didn't read this BS last night or I never would have gotten any sleep.

Why, if Lincoln was such a racist, did his opponents of the war constantly criticize him for refusing to compromise on the slavery issue?

He is and will forever be one of our greatest presidents and that really gets under the skin of some people.

Apparently, many people are confusing Lincoln's strategy in dealing with the belligerent Southern states with his position on slavery and long term strategic goals. That is, for example, cherry picking what he might have said or written in 1861 without considering those of 1865.

446 What, me worry?  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 11:55:21am

re: #441 CapeCoddah

Yes, his man concern was to unite the country and to do that, he had to abolish slavery. We all know there were economic and other concerns, yet the most changing, the farthest reaching issue was slavery and the man ended it. That is what he will forever be remembered for.

SanFranZ posted the speech awhile back where he said if he could unite the country and keep slavery, he would do it, but that was an impossibility. Which was also obvious if you listened to the whole speech. He knew that at the time he said it and so did everyone else.

If you are so interested in showing Lincoln in such an honest light, why do you insist on cherry picking his speeches?

That speech with Douglas was dripping with cynicism and I'm sorry you can't see it.

447 CapeCoddah  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 11:56:53am

Some say simplistically that the Civil War was fought over slavery. Unfortunately, there is no "simple" reason. The causes of the war were a complex series of events, including slavery, that began long before the first shot was fired. Competing nationalisms, political turmoil, the definition of freedom, the preservation of the Union, the fate of slavery and the structure of our society and economy could all be listed as significant contributing factors in America's bloodiest conflict.
Complaints of Georgians
Many of the problems Georgians saw more than one hundred fifty years ago are being reiterated today. The "oppressive" federal government. High taxes(tariffs before the war). A growing government unwilling to listen to law abiding citizens. Sound familiar? They were complaints levied from 1816 on in Georgia.
Constitutional Questions
People argued about the meaning of the Constitution since its infancy. From a legal standpoint, the document defines the relationship between the people of the United States and the federal government, detailing the powers and responsibilities of each. In 1828 Vice-president John C. Calhoun said if a state felt a federal law extended beyond the Constitutional rights of the government that state had the right to ignore(or "nullify") the law. This concept dated back the Articles of Confederation. President Andrew Jackson felt the federal government was the highest authority(Article VI, Section 2) and the states had to abide by its law.
Tariffs and the Nullification Crisis
As industry in the North expanded it looked towards southern markets, rich with cash from the lucrative agricultural business, to buy the North's manufactured goods. However, it was often cheaper for the South to purchase the goods abroad. In order to "protect" the northern industries Jackson slapped a tariff on many of the imported goods that could be manufactured in the North. When South Carolina passed the Ordinance of Nullification in November 1832, refusing to collect the tariff and threatening to withdraw from the Union, Jackson ordered federal troops to Charleston. A secession crisis was averted when Congress revised the Tariff of Abominations in February 1833.
The rhetoric changes
However, the political climate changed during this "Nullification Crisis." Designations of States Rightist, Pro-Union, loose or strict constructionalist became more important than Whig or Democrat. In North Georgia when John Thomas, a local politician, was asked what to name a new county he said, "Name it Union, for none but Union-like men live here." Most of the northern tier of Georgia counties remained pro-Union until the outbreak of war almost 30 years later. From this point on factional politics would play an increasing part in the division of a country.
Economic changes affect society
The Panic of 1837 and the ensuing depression began to gnaw like a hungry animal on the flesh of the American system. The disparity between northern and southern economies was exacerbated. Before and after the depression the economy of the South prospered. Southern cotton sold abroad totaled 57% of all American exports before the war. The Panic of 1857 devastated the North and left the South virtually untouched. The clash of a wealthy, agricultural South and a poorer, industrial North was intensified by abolitionists who were not above using class struggle to further their cause......

448 CapeCoddah  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 11:58:16am

The breakdown of the political system
The ugliness of the political process quickly began to show as parties turned upon themselves and politics on a national level were more like local Georgia politics. Feuds and fights in political arenas were common. From 1837 until 1861 eight men became president, but no man served more than a single term in office. One sitting president was not renominated by his own party and another withdrew his name after being nominated. New political parties were created with names like Constitutional Union, American, Free-Soilers and Republican. In Georgia, Democrats were strong, but factional fighting broke the party along pro-Union and States Rights lines.
With the disintegration of the Whig party in the early 1850's the political turmoil increased. Howell Cobb, former Speaker of the House, molded pro-Union Democrats, mostly from North Georgia, with former Whigs to grab the governorship in 1851. His attempts to help slaves fell on the deaf ears of our state legislature. Although Georgia began to prosper during his first year the coalition fell apart as the Democrats reunited. The increasing power of the West and self-serving politicians like Stephen A. Douglas churned the political environment as the North and South battled for philosophic control.
By the time Buchanan was elected(1856) the country was divided on many issues, including slavery. Former Governor Cobb spoke in the North as a moderate Southerner for Buchanan and served on his cabinet. Over the next 4 years Cobb changed from pro-Union to secessionist. A similar process occurred across much of Georgia. In 1860 the state was equally divided between secessionist and pro-Union.
A concise history of slavery
At Jamestown, Va. in 1611 a group of Scottish women and children were sold as slaves. 7 years later in Jamestown the first Africans were sold in slavery. From 1611 until 1865 people from virtually every society on earth were sold into slavery in North America. Citizens in each of the thirteen colonies enslaved people, but slavery was viewed as a southern institution after the early 1800's. Along the coastal areas of the South a majority of the slaves were black. In some inland areas whites and Native Americans outnumbered black slaves. Slavery is still legal in the United States as a criminal punishment, but is not practiced.
In 1789 Georgians, as did much of the rest of the country, saw slavery as a dying institution. Eli Whitney's stolen modification of the cotton gin(1793) created a greater demand for slaves, so rather than "wither on the vine" the institution prospered. The Northwest Ordinance, adopted in 1787 banned the practice in the Northwest Territories. In 1798 Georgia forbid further importation of slaves and the Constitution allowed Congress to outlaw importation of slaves in 1808, which they did. Over the next 40 years lesser skirmishes were fought over slavery including the Compromise of 1820. In North Georgia slavery was not widespread and a majority of the slaves were of Native American, Scottish or Irish descent.
Slaves often spoke of "our cotton" or "our cattle". The only item they would concede was the master's carriage. Trusted slaves were permitted to go to town unescorted. Others suffered horribly. Conditions in northern factories were as bad or worse than those for a majority of the slaves, but it would be 40 years after the war when they were properly addressed.
Beginning in the late 1840's the conflict over slavery began to boil over. The Compromise of 1850 contributed heavily to the split in Georgia's Democratic Party. On a national scale David Wilmot, Lloyd Garrison, and Harriet Beecher Stowe enflamed the abolitionists. James G. Birney and Theodore Weld were more effective against slavery. The Dred Scot decision, Kansas-Nebraska Act, and harsher Fugitive Slave Laws gave the South some redress.

449 CapeCoddah  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 11:59:23am

The new Republican Party became a home to the alienated abolitionists. Although they totaled less than 3% of the population at large, they formulated the Republican platform to include the abolition of slavery as a plank. The party then nominated Abraham Lincoln for president. Few gave him any chance of success, but 3 other candidates split the popular vote and Lincoln won. Convinced that Lincoln would ruin the South economically, possibly by freeing the slaves, the heartland of the South withdrew from the Union. Shortly thereafter the upper south joined them. The attack on Fort Sumter launched America's bloodiest conflict.
So what caused the war?
The United States had been moving towards a fractured, divisive society for a number of years. Cultural and economic differences served to widen the rift. Battles among North, South, and West grew more heated, especially after 1850. Politicians and the judiciary sent conflicting signals trying to appease each of the groups involved, yet all remained dissatisfied. Georgians saw a federal government controlled by Northern industrialists who were unresponsive to the problems of their state. Tariffs paid by Georgians bought improvements in northern and western states. Now the federal government, they thought, was going to take away personal property without compensation, a clear violation of their Fourth Amendment rights.
The South was wrong to assume Lincoln intended to free the slaves. He had never advocated action to abolish slavery nor did he speak out against the Illinois rules prohibiting blacks from testifying against whites. The true abolition candidate, Gerrit Smith of New York drew few votes. In his inaugural address Lincoln made it clear he would not interfere with slavery where it existed. Even though he made this speech after the South seceded he left the door open for their return.
During the war
Southerners abolished the African slave trade in the Confederate Constitution. In the North "Preserve the Union" was the battlecry and Lincoln quoted "...a house divided shall not stand..." from the Bible. In fact the Emancipation Proclamation(1862), a foreign affair ploy, cost Republicans control of the legislature that November. A year later Lincoln restated why the war was fought when he said, dedicating a cemetery at Gettysburg "..for those who here gave their lives that this nation might live." During the Draft Riots in New York City 88 blacks were lynched.
After the war
Phil Sheridan, George Armstrong Custer and others adapted very quickly from killing rebels to the genocide of Native Americans. The South was "reconstructed" for the next 87 years. Southerners formed "brotherhoods" that featured white robes, lynchings and unanimous support for Democratic candidates in the South and West. Confederate General John B. Gordon, reputed leader of this Ku Klux Klan, was elected governor of Georgia. Blacks struggled for nearly one hundred years to gain legal and economic equality.

450 What, me worry?  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 12:00:07pm

re: #447 CapeCoddah

Where'd you get that from?

451 CapeCoddah  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 12:00:37pm

Article posted is written by Randy Golden, a respected Georgian civil war historian.

452 CapeCoddah  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 12:03:35pm

re: #450 marjoriemoon

Not from wiki answers or fact check. From actual recorded historical fact.

453 Gus  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 12:05:33pm

re: #452 CapeCoddah

Not from wiki answers or fact check. From actual recorded historical fact.

Hilarious. The factcheck I provided was one that I created and I also provided an non-Wiki link.

I keep forgetting that some people around here are still paranoid about Wiki.

454 What, me worry?  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 12:05:57pm

re: #451 CapeCoddah

Article posted is written by Randy Golden, a respected Georgian civil war historian.

I can't find one published book of his on the subject. You have a link to published material from this historian? I found what you posted from a Georgia website which appears to be an article he wrote.

455 CapeCoddah  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 12:07:38pm

re: #446 marjoriemoon

Yes, his man concern was to unite the country and to do that, he had to abolish slavery. We all know there were economic and other concerns, yet the most changing, the farthest reaching issue was slavery and the man ended it. That is what he will forever be remembered for.

SanFranZ posted the speech awhile back where he said if he could unite the country and keep slavery, he would do it, but that was an impossibility. Which was also obvious if you listened to the whole speech. He knew that at the time he said it and so did everyone else.

Why pick certain portions of certain speeches? Because they show how he felt in reality. The issue of one man owning another was not a problem for Lincoln. The dissolution of the Union was. He used whatever he needed to to keep the union together. The outcome was, of course, a wonderful thing. That wonderful thing has, for more than a century, eclipsed the many, many reason the war took place, and has, erroneously, been pointed to ever since as the reason we went to war, brother against brother. It was a factor, it was NOT the main reason.

If you are so interested in showing Lincoln in such an honest light, why do you insist on cherry picking his speeches?

That speech with Douglas was dripping with cynicism and I'm sorry you can't see it.

456 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 12:08:46pm

re: #454 marjoriemoon

I can't find one published book of his on the subject. You have a link to published material from this historian? I found what you posted from a Georgia website which appears to be an article he wrote.

I found two hiking guides he wrote.

457 What, me worry?  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 12:09:39pm

Publishers check facts. Wiki, sometimes yes and sometimes no. It depends, but most often, historical information about such things is accurate on the Wiki and the Wiki does not say what Golden says.

Any fool can write an article on a website. Even if 1000s of fools agree and believe me, I know plenty of people say what you say about Lincoln, that doesn't make it true.

458 Gus  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 12:11:08pm

re: #456 wrenchwench

I found two hiking guides he wrote.

Randy Golden
Author at Golden Ink
Woodstock, GA

I wrote 60 Hikes Within 60 Miles: Atlanta, which features some of the Civil War hikes in the area. I also am webmaster for 5 sites, About North Georgia, Blue and Gray Trail, Out Georgia History, Roadside Georgia and Georgia Trails.

Where I grew up
New York
Places I've lived
Harrisonburg, VA; Orlando, FL; Stone Mountain, GA; Menominee Falls, Wisconsin
Companies I've worked for
Deutz Corp.; ITT; C&S Bank
Schools I've attended
Storm King, Cornwall-on-Hudson, NY; Hobart College, Geneva, NY; Perimeter College, Stone Mountain, GA

No mention of being a historian, instructor, or professor. Seems like he's just a budding author.

459 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 12:13:05pm

re: #458 Gus 802

No mention of being a historian, instructor, or professor. Seems like he's just a budding author.

And perhaps a real estate agent. That might have been a different guy.

460 CapeCoddah  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 12:21:38pm

Mr Golden is not a professor, or an instructor. He is a Civil War Historian. He is a neighbor of a family member of mine, and I have spoken with him personally. He is not famous, just very well schooled in the Civil War, fascinated by it as I always have been. He is an avid hiker, also.
re: #457 marjoriemoon

Go take a look at the documentation itself, a trip to DC and the Library of Congress should do it. Newspapers from the time are fountains of information. It is simply recorded fact. It really does not matter what you or I think. Liking the facts or not does not alter them. They are what they are, and that will not change whether you choose to ignore it or take the time to look into it. Take a look at Skip Gates' work, he acknowledges Lincoln was a racist, but, still a great man.

461 Gus  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 12:22:30pm

re: #459 wrenchwench

And perhaps a real estate agent. That might have been a different guy.

Same author:

I wrote 60 Hikes Within 60 Miles: Atlanta, which features some of the Civil War hikes in the area. I also am webmaster for 5 sites, About North Georgia, Blue and Gray Trail, Out Georgia History, Roadside Georgia and Georgia Trails

(Note: I'm not trying to judge this guy just noting his profile.)

462 CapeCoddah  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 12:22:58pm

re: #459 wrenchwench

He is not a real estate agent. One problem with the internet is that folks think they have all the correct answers at their fingertips, instant genius. We do not.

463 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 12:27:10pm

The website that publishes Mr. Golden's work also published a biography of Nathan Bedford Forrest, which includes this information:

After the Civil War, Forrest lent his name to a group of enforcers of the Democratic Party known as the Ku Klux Klan. Disenchanted with the activities of the group he ordered it to disband in 1869, which did not happen. The Klan and Forrest went separate ways but the stigma of his days as slave trader, the Fort Pillow incident and his brief association with the Klan would forever raise questions about one of America's greatest tactical minds.

The essay CapeCoddah reproduced for us here ends with this suggestion:

For a Northern Perspective on why the Civil War was fought, see Causes of the Civil War

That would imply the essay was intended as a "southern perspective" rather than "... actual recorded historical fact."

464 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 12:28:18pm

re: #462 CapeCoddah

He is not a real estate agent. One problem with the internet is that folks think they have all the correct answers at their fingertips, instant genius. We do not.

Hence the words

And perhaps a real estate agent. That might have been a different guy.
465 Gus  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 12:29:29pm

re: #463 wrenchwench

The website that publishes Mr. Golden's work also published a biography of Nathan Bedford Forrest, which includes this information:

That would imply the essay was intended as a "southern perspective" rather than "... actual recorded historical fact."

Nice work wrenchwench!

466 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 12:34:24pm

re: #465 Gus 802

Nice work wrenchwench!

Oh, it's nothing. I'm sure CapeCoddah will agree.

467 What, me worry?  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 12:38:27pm

re: #460 CapeCoddah

He would have a bit more credibility if he was actually published, but honestly, I can see why he is not.

I'm not saying that you have to be a published author or you don't have anything valid to say. Because someone could manage to get a book published that says Lincoln is a racist who never intended to free the slaves and I would STILL call them a liar.

It's not even that I don't accept this talk about Lincoln (which I don't) but an honest look at history doesn't bear it out.

If it were true, why wasn't it said? Nobody candy coated Andrew Jackson who was a ruthless Indian hater and killer.

And btw, I have never heard the Trail of Tears described as a "journey west to expanding horizons" which in the wake of the torture and death to the Indians is a really fucked up thing to say. He goes on to say that "John Ross represented the vast majority of the Cherokee and had their complete support". It was a forced relocation. Everyone knows that. The Cherokees did not voluntarily leave their own lands. I have plenty of friends, Cherokees and Choctaws in NC who have a much different opinion.

Forget the Wiki, history itself has an entirely different take on Golden's unique view.

And I can see why his history is not published.

468 What, me worry?  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 12:39:51pm

re: #463 wrenchwench

W.O.W. (and I don't mean the game either!)

469 CapeCoddah  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 12:42:25pm

re: #463 wrenchwench

The website that publishes Mr. Golden's work also published a biography of Nathan Bedford Forrest, which includes this information:

That would imply the essay was intended as a "southern perspective" rather than "... actual recorded historical fact."

A biography of Forrest? So? He is a part of U.S. History. He cannot be ignored, simply because he was a bastard.
The facts in that article are true, in regards to the reasons for the war. Will bad folks be in the mix, Yes, because they were, like it or not, a part of the overall history.
If you have the same problems with Forrest that I do, then you must also have the same issues with Robert Byrd, who was a Klan member for 10 years at least, a recruiter, who started his own chapter, as well as an Exalted Cyclops. Byrd's is apparently forgiven his outright racism because he was a democrat (first and foremost reason for the forgiveness, so lots of excuses to be made for him)who "Apologized" for his actions. He supposedly joined the Klan to get elected to Congress, then apologized and repudiated it when it became an albatross instead of a leg up. So, it is apparently OK to forgive a decade long Klan member, as long as he apologized, and was a democrat. (political apologies are SOOO sincere!) Forrest was a viscous, racist evil bastard. Your objection loses credibility when your hatred of racism is, in your words, "Cherry Picked". Personally, I will not tolerate it from any side.

470 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 12:51:21pm

re: #469 CapeCoddah

Forrest was a viscous, racist evil bastard. Your objection loses credibility when your hatred of racism is, in your words, "Cherry Picked". Personally, I will not tolerate it from any side.

I cherry picked that particular essay on Forrest? It was your link. Oh, wait. That's right, you didn't link your source. We had to dig it up ourselves.

P.S. !!!11!Robert Byrd!!!1!eleventy!!

Is my credibility restored?

471 CapeCoddah  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 1:01:47pm

I linked to nothing. Certainly not a link to a Southern perspective on Forrest. I quoted a personal acquaintances article, on the economic and political issues that preceded the Civil War. Please tell me which post of mine linked to what you say I linked to. Show me any link I posted here today.
It is you who posted the link.
And the Byrd thing makes you look foolish. Racism is racism. Not one single person who ever joined the KKK should get or deserves a pass. Anyone who ever joined up knew exactly what they were doing.
I grew up in and bolted from a family of racists, among other things. There is no such thing as a reformed racist. You are, or you are not. Those who "were" racists still are. They just hide it well.
Politicians, democratic ones, need only apologize with a tear in their eye, and all is forgiven. It is disgusting. I had no sympathy for Trent Lott, and wondered long before that incident why Byrd was ever a member of the Senate at all. Still do.

472 CapeCoddah  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 1:02:17pm

re: #470 wrenchwench

And, I Identified my source.

473 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 1:13:55pm

re: #471 CapeCoddah

I linked to nothing.

Exactly. Quoted it in full without a link. Why? Because it was a tourist site and not a place where historians publish their articles? I don't know.

I grew up in and bolted from a family of racists, among other things. There is no such thing as a reformed racist. You are, or you are not. Those who "were" racists still are. They just hide it well.

I disagree. If what you say is true, wouldn't you be a racist as well, having been born among and raised by them?

re: #472 CapeCoddah

And, I Identified my source.

re: #451 CapeCoddah

Article posted is written by Randy Golden, a respected Georgian civil war historian.

re: #452 CapeCoddah

Not from wiki answers or fact check. From actual recorded historical fact.

re: #460 CapeCoddah

Mr Golden is not a professor, or an instructor. He is a Civil War Historian. He is a neighbor of a family member of mine, and I have spoken with him personally. He is not famous, just very well schooled in the Civil War, fascinated by it as I always have been. He is an avid hiker, also.

Yes, you identified your source. Not the real estate agent, the other one, a neighbor of a relative of yours. Why no link? Because "actual recorded historical fact" doesn't usually come from tourist sites?

474 CapeCoddah  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 1:19:22pm

Not from wiki answers or fact check. From actual recorded historical fact.

Actual recorded historical fact becomes known to those who look for it. Published or not. Those facts are, as I pointed out, easily found in the Library of Congress, and other highly respected archives. I have researched them. So has Randy. Because he wrote an article and put it n his own website, does not make the facts less than what they are. Do the research yourself. Until you do, you are shooting from the hip, and simply believing what is comfortable for you, rather than doing the same legwork others have done.

475 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 1:25:44pm

re: #474 CapeCoddah

Not from wiki answers or fact check. From actual recorded historical fact.

Actual recorded historical fact becomes known to those who look for it. Published or not. Those facts are, as I pointed out, easily found in the Library of Congress, and other highly respected archives. I have researched them. So has Randy. Because he wrote an article and put it n his own website, does not make the facts less than what they are. Do the research yourself. Until you do, you are shooting from the hip, and simply believing what is comfortable for you, rather than doing the same legwork others have done.

In other words, you have facts for which you cannot cite a source more specific than the Library of Congress.

Ever hear the expression, "link, please?"

476 What, me worry?  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 1:29:10pm

re: #473 wrenchwench

Actually, racists can change their spots. I think it's highly uncommon, but not completely unheard of. I think Byrd sincerely changed, but it's still hard for people like me (slow to forgive) to accept it.

What's funny about the Forrest link, Golden goes into praising the man through the entire thing about his military prowess (he obviously admirers him) and the last paragraph mentions how "Forrest lent his name to a group of enforcers of the Democratic Party known as the Ku Klux Klan."

Emphasis mine. "Lent his name" mind you, not that he had anything to do with it even though he was the first Grand Wizard. "A group of enforcers of the Democratic Party". Gotta love it. The Klan broke away from the Democratic Party. They had nothing to do with the Democrats and vice versa.

I put these people right up there with those who have proof the moon landing was fake.

477 CapeCoddah  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 1:35:36pm

My research was done over the course of many years, at school, and in person at the LoC and the Harvard archives, and a few others when I needed to. Not on the internet. Off the top of my head, nope, can't tell you what documents to look for. You could do what I did. Spend a couple of weeks in DC doing the research the old fashioned way. All of my old notes are packed up in the attic.
I spent a lot of time and money finding out the facts about a lot of things. I am sure a lot of it is available at the LoC website. I am not going to do the work for you. You either want to know the facts or you don't. Finding them is up to you. You will have to read lots of old news print, lots of government docs, lots of private communications, archives of congressional debates... there is no one "Ah Ha" moment. A methodical search of the facts is the only thing you can do to educate yourself on the economic, social and political issues that led to the civil war. It was not an instant war initiated by Lincoln because he wanted to end slavery. We have really only had one politician who hated racism for the core of what it is, and who understood, and that was Bobby Kennedy.

478 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 1:35:51pm

re: #476 marjoriemoon

Actually, racists can change their spots. I think it's highly uncommon, but not completely unheard of. I think Byrd sincerely changed, but it's still hard for people like me (slow to forgive) to accept it.

What's funny about the Forrest link, Golden goes into praising the man through the entire thing about his military prowess (he obviously admirers him) and the last paragraph mentions how "Forrest lent his name to a group of enforcers of the Democratic Party known as the Ku Klux Klan."

Emphasis mine. "Lent his name" mind you, not that he had anything to do with it even though he was the first Grand Wizard. "A group of enforcers of the Democratic Party". Gotta love it. The Klan broke away from the Democratic Party. They had nothing to do with the Democrats and vice versa.

I put these people right up there with those who have proof the moon landing was fake.

I absolutely believe racists (and sexists, and other kinds of bigot) can change. There needs to be room for forgiveness, even though it is difficult.

The article about Forrest was not written by Golden, just published at the same site. Which CapeCoddah now tells us is his own site, so he published it. And your point about the gentle treatment, ie, "lent his name", is exactly what I was getting at. The site has its own perspective, rather than existing as "actual recorded historical fact." The very phrase makes me giggle.

479 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 1:36:07pm
480 What, me worry?  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 1:52:03pm

re: #479 riverfront

The link you provided says this guy became a member of the KKK (not clear that he was a Grand Wizard" and that he dissolved the first incarnation of the KKK in 1869 and testified before congress in 1871 in which he denied membership all together.

The link you provide also says "that Forest gave a speech to an organization of Black Southerners called the, 'Juilee of Polebearers' in which Forrest espoused a radically progressive (for the time) agenda of equality and harmoney between black and white Americans."

Sounds like someone about whom Bill Clinton would say, "And maybe he did something he shouldn't have done, and he spent the rest of his life making it up. And that's what a good person does. There are no perfect people."

Yes, Virginia, Nathan Bedford Forrest was the First Grand Wizard of the KKK except that some people apparently don't feel the need to say it, yet are quick to point out the Democrat Byrd's past associations. Well alrighty then.

You can keep Bill out of this, or maybe you wanna say he's a racist, too eh?

What is it, crazy day today?

481 CapeCoddah  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 2:23:11pm

re: #480 marjoriemoon

There is really no need to reiterate what Forrest was. Again, historical fact. You will never convince someone who defends a racist, so why bother. It still puzzles me, though, why you defend Byrd. Those who joined the KKK, as I said before, knew exactly what they were signing up for, and it was not nature walks and family picnics. Do you honestly believe, having, I am sure, thoroughly researched the KKK, that anyone who joined was not willing to murder, torture or terrorize black men, women and children? They lived for that. How does on attain the position of recruiter or exalted cyclops? Everyone involved in the KKK was, at some point guilty of or complicit in murder, torture and terrorism. They were not arranging garden parties. They were kidnapping and murdering innocents because of the color of their skin. There were no innocent KKK members. "Sincere" apologies form a politician willing to do anything, including join the KKK to get and keep his seat, I don't believe for a New York minute.
Murder, torture and terrorism were why you joined. This is not something most of us would consider to kick off a political career, then or now. Byrd not only joined, but recruited and started his own chapter. He was well respected within the organization, obviously. He deserves no praise, no forgiveness, no honor. I wonder how the families of the victims of his chapter/s like seeing his name on buildings their children have to go to school in? Sorry, but, KKK members should have been hunted down just like Nazi's were, and all tried for the crimes they either committed, were accomplices in or covered up.
They never were. At least one was a national policy maker for over a half a century. That is as much of a disgrace as slavery was.

482 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 2:41:33pm
483 boxhead  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 2:42:43pm

re: #20 jamesfirecat

Sounds like its time to get my parents to put out that "Southern Slave Owner Murdered by Union Solders Lawn Jockey" I bought from DailyShow.UnionAppreciationMonth/GetOverityoulost1 85yearsago.com

lol got photo?

484 debbsmith  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 3:35:33pm

Th wnnr gts t wrt th hstry bks. Tht's vry pprnt hr. Tryng t hv frnk dscssn bt th Cvl Wr's cmplx fndtns nd rtnls s lk tryng t dscss srl. thr y t th prty ln r y'r lbld n nt-Smt nd wrs.

vn crsry lk t th dtls f Cvl Wr hstry (nt yr hgh schl txtbk, pls) shws tht th nn ws fr frm nbl nd bth sds wr fghtng fr th rghts f rch mn t cntrl thrs' lvs, whthr thrgh slvry r th mntnnc f crl ndstrl ffdms. nn trps "frd" th blck mn nd wmn f th Sth by nscrptng th mn nd brtlzng th wmn (ths s wll-dcmntd, lk t p.) Th ntn f dlstc nn ldrs sndng n rmy f blctd snts nt th rgn t d rghts wrk s Hllywd vrsn f rlty. Slvry ws vl nd n sn prsn rgs thrws. Bt th Cvl Wr ws fr mr cmplx thn tht n ss, nd thr ws plnty f vl n bth sds.

485 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 4:00:45pm

The word must have gone out on the neo-Confederate sites.

486 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 8:52:10pm

Lots of sock puppet action going on in here.

487 JHW  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 8:54:42pm

"The winner gets to write the history books."
Another person repeats this idiotic old saw, that has no basis in fact or reality. Time to come up with a new mantra. Was Thucydides a Spartan? No..., he was an Athenian general, one of the losers, who happened to write the history of the Peleponnesian War.

Did the victors in WW2 impose censorship on the defeated, dictating what they could write or insisting that their accounts of history be used as texts in the former Axis nations? No, quite the contrary, to this day,Japan is regularly condemned in Asia for its less than candid official, school approved texts concerning WW2, especially by China.In Germany, the problem wasn't "the winner gets to write the history", it can be argued quite the opposite, how many generals and officials of the defeated Nazi regime spewed their apologetica out on the presses immediately after the war..."everyone else was for the bad guys except me, I was really opposed to them". Think of Albert Speer, Heinz Guderian, Von Manstein, Admiral Doenitz, others, and a very large number of the defeated generals and officials.

All through history you can find any number of memoirs, texts, histories, etc from the losers in a war, from Napoleon's Marshalls to Aztec assistants to Spanish clerics, ditto for the Incas, chroniclers in India after the Moghul conquest, on and on, war after war. If the person that wrote "the winners write the histories" about the US Civil War can provide any evidence that former Confederates were hindered or censored by Union authorities, please cite it. The opposite was more true, they couldn't shut them up. Virtually all the important Confederates wrote apologetica after the war and they weren't censored by the US government.Jefferson Davis, Alexander Stephens, James Longstreet, Jubal Early, the list goes on and on, and not a single one of them was hindered in his writing, censored or directed what to write by the victors.

Any time I see this old saw,inaccurate and nonsensical, posted as in post #484, I can pretty much be certain that someone that hasn't read much history at all wrote it. It is profoundly ignorant. Very few histories have been written, in any country or era, without recourse to the losers of a conflicts input.

488 jaunte  Mon, Jul 12, 2010 9:15:49pm

re: #484 debbsmith

You want to see evil? Here's evil:


We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

That in this free government *all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights* [emphasis in the original]; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states.
[Link: sunsite.utk.edu...]


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