Tea Party Leader Mark Williams: The NAACP is a ‘Vile Racist Group’

Tea Party Express spokesman Mark Williams was previously featured at LGF when he called President Obama an “Indonesian Muslim welfare thug” and the “racist in chief.”

NPR’s Cheryl Corley interviewed Williams as a “Tea Party leader” for their piece about the NAACP resolution condemning tea party racism, and Williams performed on cue, calling the NAACP a “vile racist group” that makes “more money off of race than any slave trader ever.”

“I don’t recall the NAACP speaking out when George Bush was portrayed as Curious George or as The Joker,” said Mark Williams, a national spokesman for the Tea Party Express.

“I don’t recall the NAACP ever standing up and saying we need to civilize discourse when Republicans were in the White House,” Williams added.

A number of Tea Party leaders say they don’t tolerate racist displays.

Williams contends that it’s actually the NAACP that’s being bigoted.

“You’re dealing with people who are professional race-baiters, who make a very good living off this kind of thing. They make more money off of race than any slave trader ever. It’s time groups like the NAACP went to the trash heap of history where they belong with all the other vile racist groups that emerged in our history,” Williams said.

The NAACP couldn’t have asked for a better poster boy for an anti-racism resolution. Hey Mr. Williams — they’re talking about you.

Jump to bottom

239 comments
1 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:38:10pm

Ah, the "I'm rubber, you're glue" gambit. Brilliant!

2 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:39:49pm

A) I'd like to note the NAACP asked the Tea Party to condemn the racists in their ranks, rather than calling the entire organization racist. This guy has no such scruples:

B)

They make more money off of race than any slave trader ever. It’s time groups like the NAACP went to the trash heap of history where they belong with all the other vile racist groups that emerged in our history,

The richest slavetraders made enormous amounts of money.

Where the NAACP emerged:


The NAACP was formed partly in response to the continuing horrific practice of lynching and the 1908 race riot in Springfield, the capital of Illinois and resting place of President Abraham Lincoln. Appalled at the violence that was committed against blacks, a group of white liberals that included Mary White Ovington and Oswald Garrison Villard, both the descendants of abolitionists, William English Walling and Dr. Henry Moscowitz issued a call for a meeting to discuss racial justice. Some 60 people, seven of whom were African American (including W. E. B. Du Bois, Ida B. Wells-Barnett and Mary Church Terrell), signed the call, which was released on the centennial of Lincoln's birth.
3 SpaceJesus  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:40:16pm

wow. fucking wow.

"They make more money off of race than any slave trader ever."

There's a line... And it just got crossed in a big way.

Run these bastards out of town.

4 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:40:20pm

White power unicorn tit tattoo. (Not Safe for Work)

/covering all the bases.

5 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:41:54pm

re: #2 Obdicut

I felt the "B" was very unfortunate also.

The pot's calling the kettle ... uh ... iron?

6 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:42:30pm

re: #4 goddamnedfrank

Really. Was that necessary?

Shudder

7 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:42:30pm

re: #4 goddamnedfrank

White power unicorn tit tattoo. (Not Safe for Work)

/covering all the bases.

Son, you need to get your damned eyes checked. That ain't not "tit".

8 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:43:16pm

The NAACP was started because black people were actually being lynched. Actually being dragged to trees, strung up, and hung with no trial, no justice. That is why they started. That is how they 'emerged'.

Just wanted to restate that.

9 Four More Tears  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:44:24pm

"They make more money off of race than any slave trader ever."

Stupid, little man.

10 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:44:37pm

“I don’t recall the NAACP speaking out when George Bush was portrayed.... as The Joker,”

Wait, what?

11 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:45:02pm

re: #7 Slumbering Behemoth

Son, you need to get your damned eyes checked. That ain't not no "tit".

Apparently, I need to get my damned typing fingers checked.

12 Four More Tears  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:45:03pm

re: #4 goddamnedfrank

White power unicorn tit tattoo. (Not Safe for Work)

/covering all the bases.

Dude... that's not a tit.

13 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:45:22pm

Apropos to this topic, does anyone here have any resources regarding the rhetoric of the far right in Germany between the two world wars, regarding the governments in power during that time. I.e. conspiracy theories, race baiting, etc. I don't think I need to explain why I'm interested in this little bit of historical research.

14 Kragar  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:45:47pm

re: #4 goddamnedfrank

We need to discuss some basic anatomy, and then there are those picture of you taking shots from the cleavage.

15 Four More Tears  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:47:24pm

Seriously, I just don't know what to say about this statement. I'm dumbfounded and perplexed.

16 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:47:36pm

O.

M.

G.

17 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:47:44pm

re: #4 goddamnedfrank

White power unicorn tit tattoo. (Not Safe for Work)

/covering all the bases.

THat's not a tit.

Other than that...OH LORD.

18 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:47:58pm

re: #13 Irenicum

This is an excellent resource:

[Link: axishistory.com...]

The forums will provide you with what isn't already included.

Warning: Like every WWII forum, there are holocaust deniers. They get called out, you're smart enough to identify them.

The forums have a 'propaganda' section that would be the best place to start the research.

19 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:49:29pm

I want to vomit when I see crap like this. The NAACP and other groups like them (SPLC, ADL etc...) are good and just organizations that stand against injustice. While the NAACP has on occasion made statements that I do not agree with, anyone who doubts their mission overall, or the sad fact that they are still needed, marks themselves as clearly unhinged and racist themselves.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the contention that black people are people who should and must enjoy the same rights as any other Americans. Anyone who for a moment believes that it is a self evident truth that all men are created equal, must support that contention. To do otherwise is to simply be Anti-American.

There was an astonishing link posted earlier today.

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

Click on any of the sub-links and tell me with a straight face that there is no longer a need for the NAACP or that they have nothing to be upset about.

These vile, racist cretins have long ago dropped the pretenses of dog whistles. They have been shouting their hatred, fear, contempt and loathing of non-whites and non-Christians for some time. Yes there is some movement in their group to try to appear more respectable, but racists like this are not bright enough to get it, and they have been enjoying the new freedom to lash out for too long to turn back.

America is once again facing many of its ugliest threads and darkest stains openly. This was fanned pointedly by the GOP and Fox as a political strategy. This was something predicted here on this blog over a year ago.

We get to reap the whirlwind now.

20 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:49:37pm

re: #18 Obdicut

Thank you so much! That's a great start.

21 Four More Tears  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:49:57pm

New headline: Mark Williams Thinks Slave Traders Weren't All That Bad.

22 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:50:29pm

re: #17 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm beginning to think he did that to us on purpose.

23 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:50:52pm

re: #4 goddamnedfrank

White power unicorn tit tattoo. (Not Safe for Work)

/covering all the bases.

Thats actually small man's ass. And boy would I enjoy kicking it. Really, some asses do need to simply be kicked.

24 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:51:07pm

Pointing out racism is race baiting.

I guess then I have no soul when I point out that Mark Williams is an immoral sack of poo.

25 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:51:09pm

re: #21 JasonA

New headline: Mark Williams Thinks Slave Traders Weren't All That Bad.

Capitalism at work!
/

26 Four More Tears  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:52:06pm

re: #25 HoosierHoops

Capitalism at work!
/

Is a slave-trader not entitled to the sweat of his (slave's) brow?

27 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:52:13pm

Seriously, folks is there anyone out there who can explain to me how portraying George W. Bush as the Joker is even a little bit racist? Last time I checked the Joker is about as white as you can possibly get....

28 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:53:16pm

re: #27 jamesfirecat

Seriously, folks is there anyone out there who can explain to me how portraying George W. Bush as the Joker is even a little bit racist? Last time I checked the Joker is about as white as you can possibly get...

Jack Nicholson was the best Joker.

30 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:53:46pm

re: #3 SpaceJesus

wow. fucking wow.

"They make more money off of race than any slave trader ever."

There's a line... And it just got crossed in a big way.

Run these bastards out of town.

Yes, and how painful is that for a black person to read? It's like when the Holocaust deniers claim that the Jews gassed their own people.

There are lines, and then there are lines where a sane jury would nullify an assault charge when one of these racist assholes said such a thing to the wrong black or Jew and had the snot beaten out of him.

31 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:54:10pm

re: #28 NJDhockeyfan

Jack Nicholson was the best Joker.

Wrong. Cesar Romero. Period.

32 Kragar  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:54:24pm

re: #25 HoosierHoops

Capitalism at work!
/

Emancipation was another case of Federal Regulation forcing a long standing business into ruin and causing the loss of livelihood to thousands of honest, hard working slave traders.

///

33 Kragar  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:55:09pm

re: #29 Charles

Memo to media: Pamela Geller does not belong on national television.

I don't know. I can think of a few cases, like Cops for instance.

34 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:55:35pm

You'd think Benjamin Jealous said

"You must expel the bigots and racists in your ranks or put them up on stage and let everyone see what fools they are."

instead of

"You must expel the bigots and racists in your ranks or take full responsibility for all of their actions."
35 Kragar  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:56:00pm

re: #31 Slumbering Behemoth

Wrong. Cesar Romero. Period.

Mark Hamill

36 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:56:11pm

I just posted this lovely little piece of news on the pages. Help keep NH white, elect this shithead!

37 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:56:13pm

re: #30 LudwigVanQuixote

Thanks for that link to the various studies on institutional racism, by the way. it is a good reminder that the battle for civil rights is not over.

I don't think it ever will be.

38 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:56:25pm

re: #29 Charles

Memo to media: Pamela Geller does not belong on national television.

I missed her on NBC last night. Well, perhaps "missed" isn't the right word.

39 Four More Tears  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:56:51pm

re: #35 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Mark Hamill

And Clancy Brown as Lex Luthor. 'Nuff said.

40 theheat  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:56:56pm

re: #31 Slumbering Behemoth

Trivia: Romero was a gay man. And delightful. But more than him, I loved Frank Gorshin as the Riddler. He was so gleeful and spritely and over the top - I just loved him.

41 Four More Tears  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:57:05pm

re: #38 Slumbering Behemoth

I missed her on NBC last night. Well, perhaps "missed" isn't the right word.

Evaded?

42 Four More Tears  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:57:54pm

re: #40 theheat

Trivia: Romero was a gay man. And delightful. But more than him, I loved Frank Gorshin as the Riddler. He was so gleeful and spritely and over the top - I just loved him.

And Julie Newmar as Catwoman. Rawr.

43 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:58:04pm

Whoever had "Tea Party will Accuse NAACP of being more racist" in the pool, please report to the front to collect your winnings.

44 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:58:19pm

re: #35 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Mark Hamill

I very nearly shit a cow when I learned that was his voice work. Never would have guessed it.

45 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:58:34pm

re: #28 NJDhockeyfan

Jack Nicholson was the best Joker.

No way. Mark Hamill, Mark, mother f***ing Hamil was the best Joker our minds have had the pleasure of being tormented by.

There is next to no room for debate on this, Mark turned lunacy into an art form with his years of practice at that part....

46 darthstar  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:59:36pm

Bush was never, as far as I recall, made to look like The Joker. And the Curious George thing wasn't a racial attack on the president, it was mocking his intellect by equating him with a children's book character.

The Tea Party is retarded. (note, that's not an attack on St. Grizzly).

47 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:59:36pm

re: #19 LudwigVanQuixote

I don't go to DKos, or HoffPo for that matter...too many anti-semites & racists over there.

48 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:59:57pm

re: #32 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Emancipation was another case of Federal Regulation forcing a long standing business into ruin and causing the loss of livelihood to thousands of honest, hard working slave traders.

///

Yeah, but that was a Republican project so I doubt the TPs will complain much about it, at least not until they can solidly pigeon-hole Abe Lincoln as a RINO.

49 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:00:48pm

re: #45 jamesfirecat

Agreed: Hamill's voicework is the best.

50 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:00:55pm

re: #37 Obdicut

Thanks for that link to the various studies on institutional racism, by the way. it is a good reminder that the battle for civil rights is not over.

I don't think it ever will be.

Webvintage gets credit for the link.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

51 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:01:16pm

re: #44 Slumbering Behemoth

I very nearly shit a cow when I learned that was his voice work. Never would have guessed it.

Allow me to fill your trousers with bovine mater....

And

52 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:02:23pm

re: #46 darthstar

Bush was never, as far as I recall, made to look like The Joker.


Here's one:

Drew Friedman: George W. Bush as The Joker

53 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:02:29pm

re: #47 NJDhockeyfan

It's a page with a lot of links on it. The links provide very good information about the existing institutional racism in the United States, with a very thorough overview of the racism in the justice department and labor market.

The page contains no anti-semitism and is an anti-racist posting.

54 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:02:54pm

re: #47 NJDhockeyfan

I don't go to DKos, or HoffPo for that matter...too many anti-semites & racists over there.

Which is an easy way for you to avoid the sub links which are not from there. Burying your head in the sand and then trying a false guilty by association with such a serious topic, really does mark you as a defender of racism - but then again, you do that a lot.

55 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:03:12pm

Conservatives are teaching hate (literally) ...

The Freedom to Hate

I tell my college students to feel free to hate.

I try to explain to them that in the context of all the other freedoms of choice they have, like their “spiritual path,” their gender identification, term papers from 253,428 sites, and whether their next triple-sized mocha latte will be with or without whipped cream, low or high fat milk or soy milk, with chocolate, almond, or hazelnut biscotti at Starbucks or Namaste Coffee and Tofu Emporium, this is one precious freedom they have lost.

This little pep talk is usually inspired by a sign in front of a school building that announces it is “NO PLACE FOR HATE.”

My students look at me like people who have been in reeducation camps for twelve years.

In effect, they have.

Today’s students are enjoined from hating from the time they enter school by such organizations as the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), Gay and Lesbian Straight Education Network (GLSEN), as well as by books, films, and talks by teachers, principals, and high-priced consultants. They are stared down by ADL’s posters as they turn each corner of the school corridor.

56 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:03:19pm

re: #29 Charles

Memo to media: Pamela Geller does not belong on national television.

First comment at that site:

If you really want to show up Ms. Geller, just show a clip of her spat with Ron Reagan, Jr. What kind of a woman tells a man that he never knew the father who raised him. She could have said he would disagree with him, but she had no business to tell Ron Reagan he didn't know his father. She is a hateful, erratic shrew.

I wholeheartedly concur. I knew she was off her noggin before that, but after watching that clip my opinion of her reached a new low. If I were Ron Jr., I would have reached through that satellite feed and slapped the orange off her.

57 darthstar  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:03:30pm

re: #52 NJDhockeyfan

Here's one:

Drew Friedman: George W. Bush as The Joker

Okay...one.

58 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:03:35pm

re: #53 Obdicut

It's a page with a lot of links on it. The links provide very good information about the existing institutional racism in the United States, with a very thorough overview of the racism in the justice department and labor market.

The page contains no anti-semitism and is an anti-racist posting.

He's just being a troll. As usual. He hates it when the racists and wingnuts he routinely defend are made to look bad with facts.

59 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:03:53pm

re: #39 JasonA

There can be only one! /the Kurgan.

The cartoons definitely got the dark side going, but for live action motion pictures, I'd go with Nicholson, even over Ledger. And Michael Keaton was meant to play Batman - moreso than all the others who followed especially the misbegotten George Clooney.

60 theheat  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:04:11pm

re: #46 darthstar

Also, depicting a black person as a monkey, or a white person as a monkey, really do have distinctly different connotations, if only because of precedent. People choose to ignore precedent and say it's exactly the same. It's not.

61 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:04:16pm

re: #53 Obdicut

It's a page with a lot of links on it. The links provide very good information about the existing institutional racism in the United States, with a very thorough overview of the racism in the justice department and labor market.

The page contains no anti-semitism and is an anti-racist posting.

DKos has a sordid disgusting history. I will not read their website nor HuffPo either.

62 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:05:07pm

re: #55 Killgore Trout

Oh, those nasty ADL posters staring people down! How dare they enjoin people against hatred! It's not like Jews know anything about the dangers of hatred!

What the fuck.

63 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:05:12pm

re: #57 darthstar

Okay...one.

Ehh it was a meme for a while....

[Link: www.google.com...]

It's just that how can you possibly argue that equating Bush with the Joker is Racist? Bush is white, and the Joker is INCREDIBLY white.... it might have been stupid but its even stupider to call it racist.

64 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:05:19pm

re: #56 Slumbering Behemoth

Looks like she overdid the collagen injections. She has that goofy duck lip thing going on. I have no idea why people think that's attractive.

65 Kragar  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:05:32pm

re: #59 lawhawk

There can be only one! /the Kurgan.

The cartoons definitely got the dark side going, but for live action motion pictures, I'd go with Nicholson, even over Ledger. And Michael Keaton was meant to play Batman - moreso than all the others who followed especially the misbegotten George Clooney.

My wife flipped out when I showed her that Mr. Eugene Krabs and Kurgan were one and the same.

66 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:05:38pm

re: #52 NJDhockeyfan

Here's one:

Drew Friedman: George W. Bush as The Joker

Well OK, there you have it... the left is just as bad as the right... congratulations, you proved it. Now we can all move along, because there is nothing to see here right? Do we get to hear how Rush was making satire, or that the Teabags really aren't racist, just misunderstood next? Or are you going to try the false martyr card by continuing to draw vapid false equivalences? You sicken me. Just for the record.

67 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:07:09pm

re: #66 LudwigVanQuixote

You sicken me. Just for the record.

What do you want for that, a cookie?

68 lostlakehiker  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:07:21pm

re: #19 LudwigVanQuixote

I want to vomit when I see crap like this. The NAACP and other groups like them (SPLC, ADL etc...) are good and just organizations that stand against injustice. While the NAACP has on occasion made statements that I do not agree with, anyone who doubts their mission overall, or the sad fact that they are still needed, marks themselves as clearly unhinged and racist themselves.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the contention that black people are people who should and must enjoy the same rights as any other Americans. Anyone who for a moment believes that it is a self evident truth that all men are created equal, must support that contention. To do otherwise is to simply be Anti-American.

There was an astonishing link posted earlier today.

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

Click on any of the sub-links and tell me with a straight face that there is no longer a need for the NAACP or that they have nothing to be upset about.

These vile, racist cretins have long ago dropped the pretenses of dog whistles. They have been shouting their hatred, fear, contempt and loathing of non-whites and non-Christians for some time. Yes there is some movement in their group to try to appear more respectable, but racists like this are not bright enough to get it, and they have been enjoying the new freedom to lash out for too long to turn back.

America is once again facing many of its ugliest threads and darkest stains openly. This was fanned pointedly by the GOP and Fox as a political strategy. This was something predicted here on this blog over a year ago.

We get to reap the whirlwind now.

Much good evidence, but some of it is thin. If blacks are arrested seven times as often as whites (one of the points in the post), and if they, like white felons, are then barred from voting as part of the consequences of a felony conviction, and this results in seven times the rate of vote-barring, the arithmetic suggests that arrests are correlating fairly exactly with probability of a felony conviction. The police are supposed to be making arrests on race-neutral grounds, and if they are, then the arrests they do make should lead to convictions as often with one race as with the other.

That is, the evidence on the topic of arrests, convictions, and voting denial is consistent with the hypothesis that it is actual higher offender rates, rather than police bias, that leads to the "7 times" figure.

From other sources, one can confirm that this hypothesis is also consistent with victim interview statistics.

The NAACP is needed, and for more reasons than fighting racism. One part of mission of the national association for the advancement of colored people is said advancement, and better schools and better guidance so that fewer folk drift into a criminal lifestyle would help there.

69 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:07:49pm

re: #62 Obdicut

Oh, those nasty ADL posters staring people down! How dare they enjoin people against hatred! It's not like Jews know anything about the dangers of hatred!

What the fuck.

This is their new direction. It seems like a conscious choice but I really don't think they really have any control over what they're doing anymore.

70 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:08:05pm

re: #55 Killgore Trout

Conservatives are teaching hate (literally) ...

The Freedom to Hate

Yes, yes you should be free to have baseless hatred against innocent people who never did you harm! What a precious liberty that has been lost? Well don't worry. Educated and decent people hate cretins like him passionately.

71 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:08:29pm

re: #54 LudwigVanQuixote

Maybe I've been missing a lot of his posts, but since when has NJDhockeyfan been a defender of racism?

72 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:09:30pm

re: #61 NJDhockeyfan

DKos has a sordid disgusting history. I will not read their website nor HuffPo either.

I hope you hold all your sources to the same standard, then.

But for your benefit:


[Link: www.nber.org...]

[Link: www.princeton.edu...]

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

[Link: www.sciencedaily.com...]

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

[Link: www.dailyestimate.com...]

[Link: www.racismreview.com...]

[Link: www.racismreview.com...]

[Link: www.hrw.org...]

[Link: www.hrw.org...]

[Link: www.nola.com...]

[Link: www.nola.com...]

[Link: www.cnn.com...]


That's a handful of the links on that page. I hope that by putting them here, on LGF, you will now consent to read them.

73 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:09:50pm

re: #4 goddamnedfrank

White power unicorn tit tattoo. (Not Safe for Work)

/covering all the bases.

Holy freaking shit.

74 darthstar  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:10:41pm

re: #61 NJDhockeyfan

DKos has a sordid disgusting history. I will not read their website nor HuffPo either.

I've been on dKos for several years now. It's had some off moments, and some on ones. The Front Pagers are actually some of the better writers on the internet right now. Check out posts by Darksyde - a science-centric front pager, or Meteor Blades, or David Waldman, who is actually quite versed in the ways of congress.

75 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:11:41pm

re: #72 Obdicut

Thank you. Most lizards on here are polite and informative.

76 webevintage  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:11:53pm

I was trolling the Facebook page of one of our local TV channel.
They love to post stories or questions that will rile up the natives.
Today's was: President Obama's approval ratings have dropped. What grade would you give the President? What should be the country's top issues? Share your thoughts!

It is a cess pool of all the various crazy that the tea party/varous forms of rightwing nutjobs have to offer.
Hi-larity ensued.

77 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:12:58pm

re: #68 lostlakehiker

If blacks are arrested seven times as often as whites (one of the points in the post), and if they, like white felons, are then barred from voting as part of the consequences of a felony conviction, and this results in seven times the rate of vote-barring, the arithmetic suggests that arrests are correlating fairly exactly with probability of a felony conviction. The police are supposed to be making arrests on race-neutral grounds, and if they are, then the arrests they do make should lead to convictions as often with one race as with the other.

You're mixing stuff up terribly here. Not only are blacks more likely to be arrested, but also more likely to be convicted. That the higher rate of black arrests results in a higher rate of black convictions is not a defense against racism in the system.

The demographic data for crimes committed shows that there are roughly equal percentages of offenders in the white and black populations when it comes to drugs. You are ignoring this point, for what reason I have no idea.

Why are you ignoring that?

That is, the evidence on the topic of arrests, convictions, and voting denial is consistent with the hypothesis that it is actual higher offender rates, rather than police bias, that leads to the "7 times" figure.

No, it's not. At all. You have not even made an argument. You've shown two things that one would expect-- blacks are arrested at a higher rate and convicted at a higher rate-- and concluded that there's no racism. That's a joke.

78 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:14:10pm

re: #74 darthstar

I've been on dKos for several years now. It's had some off moments, and some on ones. The Front Pagers are actually some of the better writers on the internet right now. Check out posts by Darksyde - a science-centric front pager, or Meteor Blades, or David Waldman, who is actually quite versed in the ways of congress.

You should look at past threads from LGF starring DKos. Here's one...

The Protocols of the Daily Kos

This one speaks for itself.

Daily Kos: Zionism was and remains a racist ideology.

79 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:14:42pm

re: #76 webevintage

I've seen a number of those kinds of FB threads too. It's amazing that people say what they do in those threads, since the vast majority of the time, they're posting with their real name. It seems that the immediacy of the net has unleashed many demons that would otherwise stay hidden. Seriously nasty stuff.

80 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:15:45pm

re: #57 darthstar

Okay...one.

Actually a pretty good one, at that. From an artistic standpoint.

81 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:17:09pm

re: #36 Irenicum

I just posted this lovely little piece of news on the pages. Help keep NH white, elect this shithead!

Racist bingo

Image: racismbingo513.png

82 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:17:57pm

re: #68 lostlakehiker

Much good evidence, but some of it is thin. If blacks are arrested seven times as often as whites (one of the points in the post), and if they, like white felons, are then barred from voting as part of the consequences of a felony conviction, and this results in seven times the rate of vote-barring, the arithmetic suggests...

Different states have different rules about felons voting, hence discrepancy in statistics. I usually like your posts, but you were completely off base on this one.

83 darthstar  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:18:40pm

re: #78 NJDhockeyfan

Uh, did you read the note added by the Front Pager, Miss Laura?
Image: 20070405KosZionism.jpg

84 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:18:45pm

re: #81 CuriousLurker

Racist bingo

Image: racismbingo513.png

"I love ethnic food"?!?

Fuck. I'm a racist.
/

85 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:19:11pm

re: #81 CuriousLurker

Wow. That is priceless! And it's sad to say I've heard most of them personally from my "non-racist" friends.

86 freetoken  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:19:29pm

re: #55 Killgore Trout

In the world of science and mathematics, an "exponential" function is one defined as an item whose value changes in proportion to the actual value.

I propose we are now seeing this in the hate-o-sphere. They are all trying to outdo each other in differentiating themselves from whom they see as the enemy - the modern society and its presumed poster boy - President Obama.

We've heard this in talk radio over the years - one shock jock after another trying to outdo each other.

Beck tries to outdo Limbaugh, who then tries to outdo Beck, etc.

Exponential processes lead to "runaway", as in nuclear fission.

We are seeing the American old right, the ugly-o-sphere, starting to really get going now.

It's extremely emotional and not intellectually based. But our society has done this before - both "Great Awakenings" were religious fervor run wild.

IMO it's anti-modernism in a western flavor, as opposed to other versions of anti-modernism around the world.

We knew is was going to be a long summer, and today it is quite warm in SoCal. As the elections draw near why won't we continue to see more of the Grabar type of idiocies?

As Irenicum pointed out in the Pages:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
we now have out and out racists running for local office, in the North not the South, who are campaigning on their white nationalism.

What's next?

87 darthstar  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:20:23pm

re: #83 darthstar

Uh, did you read the note added by the Front Pager, Miss Laura?
Image: 20070405KosZionism.jpg

Plus, it was tagged as a "troll diary"...

88 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:20:31pm

re: #71 Slumbering Behemoth

Maybe I've been missing a lot of his posts, but since when has NJDhockeyfan been a defender of racism?

Everytime he has defended Rush, or Beck or a teabagger's racist comments. Everytime he has trivialized the very real problems with the teabag's racism with his pitiful yelps of the left did it too in a vain attempt to recast the conversation. When he defended the Az law... When he defended the Obama /witch doctor sign. Really, do you want to get into this?

89 webevintage  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:21:55pm

re: #76 webevintage

It is a cess pool of all the various crazy that the tea party/varous forms of rightwing nutjobs have to offer.
Hi-larity ensued.

A few of the best:

Keith to add to your list he is trying to take our guns and right to bear arms away from us as well and trying to tax us on the guns we have in our homes.....

When asked to provide links to the suckage of Obama:
Google "Obama Kenya" and see what comes up.... you'll be surprised at all the links....... that way you can have a FIELD DAY realizing that he is not qualified.

And after reading all the stuff about the Dems and Black Panther voter fraud, I'm beginning to question whether or not he was legally voted in! If we had a President who defended the KKK like he does the Black Panthers, liberals would have him IMPEACHED!

I never thought I'd see the day when our government would be blinded by racist views,quit beliving in God we trust or owe China more money than we can ever pay back,& hang our elderly out to die.it sickens me,just glad the Lord is coming soon.

In reference to some of the racists posts made by members of the "Race Card" carrying people! Why is it ok for Ice Cube to not have one single white person in his movies, but we white folk get told how many we must hire to adhere to the law? Why must we hire based upon race in the private workplace to appease numbers even if those hired do not have... See More the skills? Why is it ok to have a BET and Black Panthers, yet the white man is called racist for having the KKK or wanting our own tv shows such as WET! The race card is not a one way street people but those who do have it are the ones that play it the most when they are not happy !!!

90 lostlakehiker  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:22:37pm

re: #72 Obdicut

I hope you hold all your sources to the same standard, then.

But for your benefit:

[Link: www.nber.org...]

[Link: www.princeton.edu...]

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

[Link: www.sciencedaily.com...]

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

[Link: www.dailyestimate.com...]

[Link: www.racismreview.com...]

[Link: www.racismreview.com...]

[Link: www.hrw.org...]

[Link: www.hrw.org...]

[Link: www.nola.com...]

[Link: www.nola.com...]

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

That's a handful of the links on that page. I hope that by putting them here, on LGF, you will now consent to read them.

Pick just one, the Princeton one, for starters. It's impossible to insist that everything is done fair and square in hiring for entry-level positions around NY. There is a preference for whites, and the scientific approach of the investigators proves it.

91 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:23:09pm

re: #88 LudwigVanQuixote

Sure, why not. Like I said, maybe I've missed some of his posts, or forgot about them. You got 'em? Show 'em. Otherwise, as much as I like you, I think you need to chill.

92 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:24:59pm

re: #87 darthstar

Plus, it was tagged as a "troll diary"...

When Americans were killed & hung in Fallujah, Markos Moulitsas Zuniga said 'screw them' about those dead Americans and he was proud of that statement. I will not support that scumbag's blog. Sorry.

93 calochortus  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:25:47pm

It amazes me what is lurking beneath the surface (in some cases, not too far beneath the surface) in a substantial number of people. Maybe its being raised in the S.F. Bay Area, but race just doesn't push my 'buttons'. Nor does religion as long as you leave me out of it.

My husband just announced an outrageous outrage (at least to geologists) he found-California may drop serpentine as its state rock because it contains asbestos and we all know that can be dangerous. I guess if its not official it will be safer? I guess this is also more important than passing a budget?

94 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:26:32pm

re: #92 NJDhockeyfan

Has he ever apologized for that?

95 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:28:04pm

re: #88 LudwigVanQuixote

Everytime he has defended Rush, or Beck or a teabagger's racist comments.
Everytime he has trivialized the very real problems with the teabag's racism with his pitiful yelps of the left did it too in a vain attempt to recast the conversation. When he defended the Az law... When he defended the Obama /witch doctor sign. Really, do you want to get into this?

Exuse me? I have never defended any of that. You are making up shit to make me look bad. Go fuck yourself.

96 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:28:42pm

re: #94 Slumbering Behemoth

Has he ever apologized for that?

Nope.

97 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:29:04pm

re: #86 freetoken

I was writing this would happen a year ago.

People always think I am over the top when it comes to these things.

Believe me, I wish I was wrong. The parallels to the early Nazis are terrifying.

If the economy continues to improve then what will happen is that these assholes will not get elected and the more radical elements will turn to localized bouts of violence and domestic terrorism. However, as a whole, that crisi will pass and the GOP will fracture.

If the economy turns south, some large numbers of these monsters will gain real political power and the GOP will give them more and more bones. marginalized groups that can not defend themselves will be targeted more and more, while saber rattling becomes he dominant political paradigm.

From there, who knows.

98 darthstar  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:29:17pm

re: #92 NJDhockeyfan

When Americans were killed & hung in Fallujah, Markos Moulitsas Zuniga said 'screw them' about those dead Americans and he was proud of that statement. I will not support that scumbag's blog. Sorry.

I'm not asking you to. And a lot of people disagreed with Markos on that at the time. But as awful as the treatment of those mercs was, they were paid mercs, and knew the risks--hell, for 30,000 dollars a month, there were a lot of people who were clamoring for "contractor" jobs in Iraq.

And the page screen shot you linked showed pretty clearly how the Admin at dKos feels about anti-semitic diaries - content deleted, disclaimer, and tagging as a troll diary. That's a pretty solid rejection of the ideas that diarist had tried to espouse. I'd think you'd find some comfort in that.

99 RadicalModerate  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:29:22pm

re: #36 Irenicum

I just posted this lovely little piece of news on the pages. Help keep NH white, elect this shithead!

Just got through reading the original story on this guy on the Concord Monitor.

Candidate: Keep state's complexion white

Ryan Murdoch claims that he isn't a racist, but just conveniently hits on all the white supremacist talking points - quite honestly he could be doing a straight cut-and-paste from Stormfront.

"I would like to preserve what we have before it gets totally out of control," Murdough, a 30-year-old father of two young boys, said last week. "The more it becomes non-white, the more it's going to become a much different place to live, for white people especially."

So please, don't call him a racist. He says that's not true.
"I would ask you about your version of racist," Murdough said. "The word does not have a specific definition. If someone says, 'You seem to hate people who aren't white,'
I say no, so I can't really be a racist, because I don't hate them. I just don't want to live around areas that are heavily, predominantly non-white."

Murdough wrote that the state's residents "must seek to preserve their racial identity. . . . Legal non-white immigration, anti-white public school systems and anti-white media have done much damage to the United States of America and especially New Hampshire."

"The older you get, the wiser you get," Murdough said. "I started to observe things, after high school especially . . . things that I found that were wrong and unjust. I started educating myself politically and religiously and racially. It started coming together, and they all just made sense."
He spoke about theories that were hard to digest, speculating that DNA and committing crimes could be related.

Murdough reveres the founding fathers, but Abraham Lincoln? "One of the worst presidents ever. He waged war against the South."

Martin Luther King Jr.? Don't get him started. King was a prostitute-chasing communist who plagiarized his work in college, Murdough says. The heck with the civil rights movement King led. Murdough doesn't believe in that cause anyway.
"He wasn't out for civil rights," Murdough said. "He was out for the black man. If you argue against something that's politically correct, such as Martin Luther King Jr. and Jewish issues, you're persona non grata."

Ah yes, the Jews. They need not apply for residency here, either.

"I've even read some things where Jews are considered white because of their skin," Murdough said. "Technically, they're a different race than white people. They're Semitic; that's not white."

The conversation continued along these lines, from a man who says immigration of any kind must stop so America can be white as snow.

The comments from this story are quite revealing too.
One of them is from Murdough himself linking to a white supremacist site.

He's got a Twitter account also - three guesses the type of stuff he tweets there.
Ryan Joseph Murdough http://twitter.com/ryanjmurdough

100 darthstar  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:30:03pm

re: #94 Slumbering Behemoth

Has he ever apologized for that?

No. Markos did write a diary at one point explaining why, too.

101 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:30:31pm

re: #13 Irenicum

Apropos to this topic, does anyone here have any resources regarding the rhetoric of the far right in Germany between the two world wars, regarding the governments in power during that time. I.e. conspiracy theories, race baiting, etc. I don't think I need to explain why I'm interested in this little bit of historical research.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

An amazing book.

102 lostlakehiker  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:30:44pm

re: #77 Obdicut

No, it's not. At all. You have not even made an argument. You've shown two things that one would expect-- blacks are arrested at a higher rate and convicted at a higher rate-- and concluded that there's no racism. That's a joke.

It's not a joke. The arrest is not the cause of the conviction, the offense itself is the cause of the conviction. Blacks and whites who do get arrested are, on the evidence of the links and the statistics, about equally likely to be convicted. That's because the quality of the arrests are about equally good.

You cannot maintain that the underlying offender rates are equal. They just aren't. Victim surveys confirm that they aren't.

I do not maintain that there is no racism. Only that this set of statistics advanced as evidence of racism is no proof at all. The facts are these: victim surveys demonstrate that the underlying rate of offenses is higher among blacks. Arrest rates are consistent with offender rates; a given crime is as likely to result in arrest when committed by a black, or by a white. And this is as it should be.

An arrest is as likely to result in a conviction when the person arrested is black, as when he's white. This, too, is as it should be.

Racism factors into these statistics at a different point: when a black is turned down for a job a white would have been hired for, the white is put in a position where the decision to steer clear of a crime is made easier.

The law can't excuse crimes on such a basis, and it doesn't. So, arrest and conviction rates reflect unhappy facts, not racism by the arresting officers or by judges or juries.

103 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:31:14pm

re: #97 LudwigVanQuixote

That's my fear as well. That's why I asked at the top of the thread about the rhetoric of the far right in Germany between the wars. It's scarily similar to what I'm seeing and hearing now. I just need more hard documentation in order to argue the connection more effectively.

104 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:31:31pm

re: #96 NJDhockeyfan

re: #100 darthstar

Well then, screw him too.

105 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:32:21pm

re: #103 Irenicum

That's my fear as well. That's why I asked at the top of the thread about the rhetoric of the far right in Germany between the wars. It's scarily similar to what I'm seeing and hearing now. I just need more hard documentation in order to argue the connection more effectively.

Look no further than Hitler's Nuremberg rally address. I posted that here about 10 times.

106 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:32:32pm

re: #98 darthstar

I'm not asking you to. And a lot of people disagreed with Markos on that at the time. But as awful as the treatment of those mercs was, they were paid mercs, and knew the risks--hell, for 30,000 dollars a month, there were a lot of people who were clamoring for "contractor" jobs in Iraq.

And the page screen shot you linked showed pretty clearly how the Admin at dKos feels about anti-semitic diaries - content deleted, disclaimer, and tagging as a troll diary. That's a pretty solid rejection of the ideas that diarist had tried to espouse. I'd think you'd find some comfort in that.

If a lot of people changed over there I think that's great. Recently there were a few 'diaries' slamming Israel with disgusting comments like a few years ago. Charles won't allow that here. DKos still has some work to do to prove they won't allow it there.

107 allegro  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:32:41pm

re: #92 NJDhockeyfan

Don't let a little thing like context ruin your meme:

"Let the people see what war is like. This isn't an Xbox game. There are real repercussions to Bush's folly. That said, I feel nothing over the death of merceneries. They aren't in Iraq because of orders, or because they are there trying to help the people make Iraq a better place. They are there to wage war for profit. Screw them." -- Markos Moulitsas Zuniga on the four Americans who were murdered by terrorists and then had their corpses desecrated in Fallujah, Iraq

108 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:34:20pm

re: #107 allegro

Sorry, even with the context included he still comes off as a fuck-wit.

109 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:34:33pm

re: #101 Fozzie Bear

Thanks Fozzie. I've never read that, even though I know it's considered a classic. I'll have to get it some day.

110 lostlakehiker  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:35:30pm

re: #97 LudwigVanQuixote

I was writing this would happen a year ago.

People always think I am over the top when it comes to these things.

Believe me, I wish I was wrong. The parallels to the early Nazis are terrifying.

If the economy continues to improve then what will happen is that these assholes will not get elected and the more radical elements will turn to localized bouts of violence and domestic terrorism. However, as a whole, that crisi will pass and the GOP will fracture.

If the economy turns south, some large numbers of these monsters will gain real political power and the GOP will give them more and more bones. marginalized groups that can not defend themselves will be targeted more and more, while saber rattling becomes he dominant political paradigm.

From there, who knows.

We've been through any number of depressions, and one great depression, before. At a time when official racism was prevalent, with Jim Crow laws on the books and the Army segregated. What happened then is surely worse than anything that can happen now.

We really have made progress, and that progress will not evaporate just because we hit another bad economic patch.

111 darthstar  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:35:30pm

re: #106 NJDhockeyfan

If a lot of people changed over there I think that's great. Recently there were a few 'diaries' slamming Israel with disgusting comments like a few years ago. Charles won't allow that here. DKos still has some work to do to prove they won't allow it there.

They're a little more tolerant of people with different points of view over there. So yes, some people write diaries critical of Israel. The comments in those diaries (I rarely read them because they're often flame wars) reflect the variety of opinions. Over the top I/P diaries are usually reported and deleted, however. Regardless of what side of the security fence they're on.

112 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:35:33pm

re: #107 allegro

Don't let a little thing like context ruin your meme:

What a nasty comment. Screw him.

113 allegro  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:35:47pm

re: #108 Slumbering Behemoth

So you think war profiteers are great guys?

114 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:36:44pm

It's almost as though this guy is trying to make the views of the NBPP seem reasonable and warranted.

What a colossal prick.

115 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:36:46pm

re: #88 LudwigVanQuixote

Everytime he has defended Rush, or Beck or a teabagger's racist comments. Everytime he has trivialized the very real problems with the teabag's racism with his pitiful yelps of the left did it too in a vain attempt to recast the conversation. When he defended the Az law... When he defended the Obama /witch doctor sign. Really, do you want to get into this?

You too, Ludwig?

116 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:36:58pm

re: #110 lostlakehiker

We've been through any number of depressions, and one great depression, before. At a time when official racism was prevalent, with Jim Crow laws on the books and the Army segregated. What happened then is surely worse than anything that can happen now.

We really have made progress, and that progress will not evaporate just because we hit another bad economic patch.

I do not share your optimism.

Before the Demons of American racism are fully exorcised they will have a last gasp.

117 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:37:21pm

re: #102 lostlakehiker

It's not a joke. The arrest is not the cause of the conviction, the offense itself is the cause of the conviction. Blacks and whites who do get arrested are, on the evidence of the links and the statistics, about equally likely to be convicted. That's because the quality of the arrests are about equally good.

This is not true. Please stop saying it.

[Link: www.hrw.org...]

Although the data in this backgrounder indicate that blacks represent about one-third of drug arrests, they constitute 46 percent of persons convicted of drug felonies in state courts.

In addition, it is entirely besides the point that we have independent data about the rate of commission of drug offenses, and drug offenses are committed at the same rate among the white and black population. Therefore, the higher rate of arrest and conviction does indicate a systemic institutionalized racism, given the massive disproportion of black arrests and convictions.


You cannot maintain that the underlying offender rates are equal. They just aren't. Victim surveys confirm that they aren't.

Please cite reliable data on this, and please address drug crimes which are victimless.

Back up your claims with data, not with assertion.

118 webevintage  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:37:31pm

re: #99 RadicalModerate

The comments from this story are quite revealing too.
One of them is from Murdough himself linking to a white supremacist site.

He's got a Twitter account also - three guesses the type of stuff he tweets there.
Ryan Joseph Murdough http://twitter.com/ryanjmurdough

If the first words out of someones mouth is "I'm not racist" then you pretty much know what is coming nest is probably racist.
(I think I got that from The Daily Show)
BUT maybe he let would let a black guy use his bathroom....

119 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:37:59pm

re: #113 allegro

So you think war profiteers are great guys?

I think "war profiteers" is a handy meme used to demonize paid security.

120 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:38:55pm

re: #102 lostlakehiker

It's not a joke. The arrest is not the cause of the conviction, the offense itself is the cause of the conviction. Blacks and whites who do get arrested are, on the evidence of the links and the statistics, about equally likely to be convicted. That's because the quality of the arrests are about equally good.

You cannot maintain that the underlying offender rates are equal. They just aren't. Victim surveys confirm that they aren't.

I do not maintain that there is no racism. Only that this set of statistics advanced as evidence of racism is no proof at all. The facts are these: victim surveys demonstrate that the underlying rate of offenses is higher among blacks. Arrest rates are consistent with offender rates; a given crime is as likely to result in arrest when committed by a black, or by a white. And this is as it should be.

An arrest is as likely to result in a conviction when the person arrested is black, as when he's white. This, too, is as it should be.

Racism factors into these statistics at a different point: when a black is turned down for a job a white would have been hired for, the white is put in a position where the decision to steer clear of a crime is made easier.

The law can't excuse crimes on such a basis, and it doesn't. So, arrest and conviction rates reflect unhappy facts, not racism by the arresting officers or by judges or juries.

I'm just guessing here, but I would bet you have zero experience with the criminal justice system. Racism in that system is rampant. It's not so obvious as "lock that n***** up", but it's there, pervasive, and real.

121 allegro  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:39:44pm

re: #119 Slumbering Behemoth

I think "war profiteers" is a handy meme used to demonize paid security.

Ever hear of Blackwater? Erick Prince? "Paid security" hardly covers it.

122 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:40:05pm

re: #119 Slumbering Behemoth

I think "war profiteers" is a handy meme used to demonize paid security.

I prefer the older, more honest term: mercenaries.

123 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:40:18pm

re: #119 Slumbering Behemoth

I think "war profiteers" is a handy meme used to demonize paid security.

Some lefties seem to approve terrorists ripping them apart & hanging them. How fucked up is that?

124 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:40:51pm

re: #102 lostlakehiker

And by the way:


The law can't excuse crimes on such a basis, and it doesn't. So, arrest and conviction rates reflect unhappy facts, not racism by the arresting officers or by judges or juries.

I am not implying racism on their part. Institutional racism doesn't have to involve any personal racism at all.

125 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:40:51pm

Oh look some Kos-bashing in the thread

126 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:41:09pm

re: #123 NJDhockeyfan

Who approves?

127 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:41:11pm

re: #123 NJDhockeyfan

Some lefties seem to approve terrorists ripping them apart & hanging them. How fucked up is that?

concerrrn

trooOoOooOooOooOoOllLlL

128 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:41:21pm

re: #123 NJDhockeyfan

Some lefties seem to approve terrorists ripping them apart & hanging them. How fucked up is that?

Yeah we just love being blown up. That's it.

129 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:42:09pm

re: #128 Fozzie Bear

Yeah we just love being blown up. That's it.

As long as they are mercenaries, right? Markos would agree.

130 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:42:36pm

re: #126 Obdicut

Who approves?

Markos Moulitsas. Screw him.

131 webevintage  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:43:18pm

re: #129 NJDhockeyfan

As long as they are mercenaries, right? Markos would agree.

He apologized for the comment...

132 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:43:19pm

re: #129 NJDhockeyfan

As long as they are mercenaries, right? Markos would agree.

No. He said he felt nothing. Why do you say that is 'approval'?

If I say "I feel nothing about this", that doesn't count as approval.

I think it was a shitty thing for him to say. But don't claim he said something he didn't.

133 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:43:31pm

re: #120 Fozzie Bear

I'm just guessing here, but I would bet you have zero experience with the criminal justice system. Racism in that system is rampant. It's not so obvious as "lock that n***** up", but it's there, pervasive, and real.

When any underclass in society has 40%+ unemployment, would you find it surprising if members of that group committed more property crimes than the general population?

134 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:43:45pm

re: #124 Obdicut

That's a very important distinction and I'm glad you pointed that out.

135 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:44:36pm

re: #121 allegro

Those guys were providing security for a convoy transporting food. I hardly think "war profiteers" is more accurate than "paid security".

So, screw Markos and anyone who defends that rancid comment of his.

136 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:44:39pm

re: #131 webevintage

He apologized for the comment...

No he didn't. He was proud of it.

Kos: Proud of "Screw Them"

137 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:44:40pm

re: #109 Irenicum

Thanks Fozzie. I've never read that, even though I know it's considered a classic. I'll have to get it some day.

It's a freaking AMAZING book. Some of the most thorough and insightful historical work I have ever read.

Seriously, it is a masterpiece.

138 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:45:39pm

re: #135 Slumbering Behemoth

Those guys were providing security for a convoy transporting food. I hardly think "war profiteers" is more accurate than "paid security".

So, screw Markos and anyone who defends that rancid comment of his.

Exactly.

139 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:45:42pm

re: #130 NJDhockeyfan

Markos Moulitsas. Screw him.

You're misrepresenting what he said. That weakens your critique massively.

140 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:45:59pm

re: #133 Spare O'Lake

There is only a very weak correlation between poverty and crime.

141 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:46:03pm

Kos used to be dirt around here, for good reason. Now, not so much.

142 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:46:22pm

re: #125 WindUpBird

In this case it's deserved.

re: #131 webevintage

He apologized for the comment...

Did he? If so, I will cut him some slack. So long as it's not one of those "I'm sorry, but..." kind of apologies.

143 Stanghazi  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:46:31pm

re: #141 Spare O'Lake

Kos used to be dirt around here, for good reason. Now, not so much.

Aww, LGF has changed.

144 Ericus58  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:46:52pm

re: #122 Fozzie Bear

I prefer the older, more honest term: mercenaries.


The men brutally killed and having their bodies displayed in the most inhuman way possible were not conducting field operations against the population - they were providing Security.

There is a big difference.
Was there incidences of mis-conduct and even murder by a few? Yes. And I do think there was legal action taken for accountability - and contracts severed.

Those that are pushing this "War Profiteers" line, I ask you this: do you own stock or use the products of any US companies that provide Military products or services? Then you too are a "War Profiteer".

145 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:47:34pm

re: #121 allegro

Ever hear of Blackwater? Erick Prince? "Paid security" hardly covers it.

What's one rape victim locked in a shipping container among friends? What's a few unaccountable off-the-books pallets of cash? Hey, we're all good people, right? I mean, they were so God-loving and awesome they changed their name!

Hey, I remember when Markos Moulitsas was indicted by the feds on weapons violations OH WAIT NO it was those poor poor hard-working god-loving mercenaries.

146 windsagio  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:47:41pm

re: #143 Stanley Sea

its funny because I just mentioned Kos in the next thread, and then came here to read things. I posted the wrong place I guess >>

147 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:47:41pm

re: #133 Spare O'Lake

When any underclass in society has 40%+ unemployment, would you find it surprising if members of that group committed more property crimes than the general population?

Of course not. However, it is a fact that conviction rates, terms of incarceration, and successful death penalty conviction rates are, across the board, much higher for black defendants, once arrested.

Would you find it surprising to know that they were poorer in the first place because they are disenfranchised, because of institutionalized racism?

148 darthstar  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:49:01pm

re: #107 allegro

You'll never reach someone like NJD whose mind is made up. The example he gave me of anti-semitism had three points in the image that indicated it wouldn't be tolerated at dKos, and still he doesn't see it. It's far easier to believe that the site is a hate site than have one's preconceived notions challenged.

149 webevintage  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:49:15pm

re: #136 NJDhockeyfan

No he didn't. He was proud of it.

Kos: Proud of "Screw Them"

My bad.
I apologize, I thought he did.

"My language was harsh, and, in reality, not true. Fact is, I did feel something. That's why I was so angry.

I was angry that five soldiers -- the real heroes in my mind -- were killed the same day and got far lower billing in the newscasts. I was angry that 51 American soldiers paid the ultimate price for Bush's folly in Iraq in March alone. I was angry that these mercenaries make more in a day than our brave men and women in uniform make in an entire month. I was angry that the US is funding private armies, paying them $30,000 per soldier, per month, while the Bush administration tries to cut our soldiers' hazard pay. I was angry that these mercenaries would leave their wives and children behind to enter a war zone on their own violition. "

150 windsagio  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:49:17pm

re: #145 WindUpBird

you forgot 'whats a few murders?' too, see?

re: #144 Ericus58

Was there incidences of mis-conduct and even murder by a few? Yes. And I do think there was legal action taken for accountability - and contracts severed.

151 hugo  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:49:51pm

Well, you've all gotten to me and I've looked for my inner racist since I do not see "racism" in most of the "most racist tea party signs" searches I have done. I clearly do see some that are mean-spirited, offensive, intended to hurt feelings, hateful, crude, juvenile, in bad taste, etc. ... But 'racist?' I genuinely ask for your definition(s) of racism. Here's mine: Racism is the belief that some races are inherently superior (physically, intellectually, or culturally) to others and therefore have a right to dominate them. Furthemore, a 'race' can be defined as: "any of the different varieties or populations of human beings distinguished by physical traits, blood type, genetic code patterns, and/ or all their inherited characteristics which are unique to their isolated breeding population." ... I have an open mind and am ready to think a second time.

152 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:50:18pm

re: #141 Spare O'Lake

Kos used to be dirt around here, for good reason. Now, not so much.

There also used to be a bunch of real sorry wackos here, and then they were ejected.

I think I remember the guy that owns this blog linking to Kos himself fairly recently, so if you want to go boo hoo someone linked to Kos...

153 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:50:52pm

re: #148 darthstar

You'll never reach someone like NJD whose mind is made up. The example he gave me of anti-semitism had three points in the image that indicated it wouldn't be tolerated at dKos, and still he doesn't see it. It's far easier to believe that the site is a hate site than have one's preconceived notions challenged.

There are plenty of examples from there. I just don't feel like posting them. You can find lots of linked from LGF.

154 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:51:01pm

re: #144 Ericus58

The men brutally killed and having their bodies displayed in the most inhuman way possible were not conducting field operations against the population - they were providing Security.

There is a big difference.
Was there incidences of mis-conduct and even murder by a few? Yes. And I do think there was legal action taken for accountability - and contracts severed.

Those that are pushing this "War Profiteers" line, I ask you this: do you own stock or use the products of any US companies that provide Military products or services? Then you too are a "War Profiteer".

They are mercenaries, Kos' tirade notwithstanding. In more honest (less deluded) times, nobody would have disputed this.

I challenge you to draw a meaningful distinction between the terms "mercenary" and "paid security personnel", when the context is a war zone, and the employer is one of the sides engaged in the military conflict.

155 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:51:06pm

re: #151 hugo

According to you, is a white person using the "n-word" to refer to blacks, racist?

If so, what part of your definition shows that?

156 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:51:15pm

re: #151 hugo

Well, you've all gotten to me and I've looked for my inner racist since I do not see "racism" in most of the "most racist tea party signs" searches I have done. I clearly do see some that are mean-spirited, offensive, intended to hurt feelings, hateful, crude, juvenile, in bad taste, etc. ... But 'racist?' I genuinely ask for your definition(s) of racism. Here's mine: Racism is the belief that some races are inherently superior (physically, intellectually, or culturally) to others and therefore have a right to dominate them. Furthemore, a 'race' can be defined as: "any of the different varieties or populations of human beings distinguished by physical traits, blood type, genetic code patterns, and/ or all their inherited characteristics which are unique to their isolated breeding population." ... I have an open mind and am ready to think a second time.


so you don't think calling the president a ni***r and depicting his wife as an ape is racist?

157 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:51:27pm

re: #151 hugo

If you don't see how Obama as Witch Doctor is racist, I can't help you.

158 RadicalModerate  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:51:42pm

Troll alert on #151

159 windsagio  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:51:42pm

re: #155 Obdicut

re: #156 WindUpBird

no, no, they misspelled it, that made it okay!

160 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:52:13pm

re: #143 Stanley Sea

Aww, LGF has changed.

There are places I remember
All my life though some have changed
Some forever not for better
Some have gone and some remain
All these places had their moments
With lovers and friends I still can recall
Some are dead and some are living
In my life I've loved them all

161 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:52:26pm

re: #151 hugo

Sorry. I don't have time for you and your inane question. Never have, never will.

162 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:52:33pm

re: #151 hugo

See that -6 next to your name?

That means we're not really buying you

we're open to our minds being changed! But if you come in here with a partisan pushback against obvious racism, it's not gonna be happenin

163 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:53:16pm

re: #151 hugo

Like clockwork. Someone always shows up to defend the racists, no matter how despicable their comments.

164 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:53:44pm

re: #158 RadicalModerate

And it waited a whole 30 minutes to impress us all.

165 webevintage  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:54:24pm

re: #151 hugo

I have an open mind and am ready to think a second time.

Do you agree with this dude?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

would you freak out if your kid dated or married someone black?
would you let a black guy use your bathroom?
do you start posts with the words "I'm not a racist, but...."

166 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:54:31pm

re: #162 WindUpBird

I didn't see anything partisan in that post. Stupid, but not overtly partisan.

Maybe he noticed us going through a bit of infighting here, and decided to post a comment that would bring us all back together.
/yeah, right

167 Irenicum  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:55:02pm

And by the way, I don't think Hugo has far to look to find it's inner racist. Just sayin'

168 Hugo  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:55:22pm

re: #155 Obdicut

Good point. I would agree with you. Thanks.

169 calochortus  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:55:49pm

re: #151 hugo

I think a lot of the racism that is displayed is of the dog whistle variety. I don't always 'get it', but obviously some people do. Some of it is probably inadvertent. Most not so much. For example, I just finished reading a book about the Chinese in the West in the late 19th, early 20th centuries where it was pointed out that the term "Chinaman" was derogatory. To me the term is archaic, but literally descriptive. Being archaic, its not a term I would use, but it conveys nothing unpleasant. Back in the day, at least, it was used in a derogatory fashion.

170 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:56:06pm

re: #147 Fozzie Bear

Would you find it surprising to know that they were poorer in the first place because they are disenfranchised, because of institutionalized racism?

Of course not, silly, anyone knows that. And they are kept down by it too. And they can't afford decent legal representation either. And most judges are white too.
Another nontroversy?

171 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:56:20pm

re: #151 hugo

I've looked for my inner racist

Maybe you should try looking on the outside.

172 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:56:24pm

re: #142 Slumbering Behemoth

In this case it's deserved.
.


It'd be nice if NJD wasn't lying about what he said, so, no I don't actually think it's deserved

173 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:57:08pm

re: #172 WindUpBird

It'd be nice if NJD wasn't lying about what he said, so, no I don't actually think it's deserved

Lying how?

174 Ericus58  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:57:21pm

re: #154 Fozzie Bear

They are mercenaries, Kos' tirade notwithstanding. In more honest (less deluded) times, nobody would have disputed this.

I challenge you to draw a meaningful distinction between the terms "mercenary" and "paid security personnel", when the context is a war zone, and the employer is one of the sides engaged in the military conflict.

"The legal status of civilian contractors depends upon the nature of their work and their nationalities with respect to that of the combatants. If they have not "in fact, taken a direct part in the hostilities" (APGC77 Art 47.b), they are not mercenaries but civilians who have non-combat support roles and are entitled to protection under the Third Geneva Convention (GCIII 4.1.4)."
........
"The situation during the Iraq War and the continuing occupation of Iraq after the United Nations Security Council sanctioned hand-over of power to the Iraqi government shows the difficulty of defining a mercenary soldier. While the United States governed Iraq, no U.S. citizen working as an armed guard could be classified as a mercenary, because he was a national of a Party to the conflict (APGC77 Art 47.d). With the hand-over of power to the Iraqi government, if one does not consider the coalition forces to be continuing parties to the conflict in Iraq, but that their soldiers are sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces (APGC77 Art 47.f), then, unless U.S. citizens working as armed guards are lawfully certified residents of Iraq, i.e., a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict (APGC77 Art 47.d), and they are involved in a fire-fight in the continuing conflict, they are mercenary soldiers. However, those who acknowledge the United States and other coalition forces as continuing parties to the conflict might insist that U.S. armed guards cannot be called mercenaries (APGC77 Art 47.d)."

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I think this would apply.
At the time of those 4 men being killed, they would not have been considered Mercenaries.

175 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:58:25pm

re: #172 WindUpBird

It'd be nice if NJD wasn't lying about what he said, so, no I don't actually think it's deserved

I lied? Explain please.

176 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:59:03pm

re: #173 Slumbering Behemoth

Lying how?

He said Markos supported the killing of the mercenaries. Markos did not. He said he felt nothing. Later, he said he felt angry at them-- in a larger context.

Markos never said he supported their deaths, and it was wrong to say that he did.

177 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:00:22pm

If anyone would like to read Markos Moulitsas' actual thoughts on the stomach instead of just mindlessly bashing him, here:

There's been much ado about my indifference to the Mercenary deaths in Falluja a couple days ago. I wrote in some diary comments somewhere that "I felt nothing" and "screw them".

My language was harsh, and, in reality, not true. Fact is, I did feel something. That's why I was so angry.

I was angry that five soldiers -- the real heroes in my mind -- were killed the same day and got far lower billing in the newscasts. I was angry that 51 American soldiers paid the ultimate price for Bush's folly in Iraq in March alone. I was angry that these mercenaries make more in a day than our brave men and women in uniform make in an entire month. I was angry that the US is funding private armies, paying them $30,000 per soldier, per month, while the Bush administration tries to cut our soldiers' hazard pay. I was angry that these mercenaries would leave their wives and children behind to enter a war zone on their own violition.

So I struck back.

Unlike the vast majority of people in this country, I actually grew up in a war zone. I witnessed communist guerillas execute students accused of being government collaborators. I was 8 years old, and I remember stepping over a dead body, warm blood flowing from a fresh wound. Dodging bullets while at market. I lived in the midsts of hate the likes of which most of you will never understand (Clinton and Bush hatred is nothing compared to that generated when people kill each other for politics or race or nationality). There's no way I could ever describe the ways this experience colors my worldview.

Back to Iraq, our men and women in uniform are there under orders, trying to make the best of an impossible situation. The war is not their fault, and I will always defend their honor and bravery to the end of my days. But the mercenary is a whole different deal. They willingly enter a war zone, and do so because of the paycheck. They're not there for humanitarian reasons (I doubt they'd donate half their paycheck to the Red Cross or whatever). They're there because the money is DAMN good. They answer to no one except their CEO. They are dangerous, hence international efforts (however fruitless they may be) to ban their use.

So not only was I wrong to say I felt nothing over their deaths, I was lying. I felt way too much. Nobody deserves to die. But in the greater scheme of things, there are a lot of greater tragedies going on in Iraq (51 last month, plus countless civilians and Iraqi police). That those tragedies are essentially ignored these days is, ultimately, the greatest tragedy of all.

178 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:00:32pm

re: #175 NJDhockeyfan

I already explained.

You said Markos approved of their killing. He did not. He said he felt nothing. Even later, when he said he was angry at them, in no way did he say he approved.

The statement Markos actually made is terrible enough without changing it into something worse, and you should stop misrepresenting it.

179 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:00:56pm

re: #177 WindUpBird

where did stomach come from? I think I meant to say subject, who knows :D

180 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:01:14pm

re: #175 NJDhockeyfan

I lied? Explain please.

Look above

181 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:01:29pm

re: #173 Slumbering Behemoth

Lying how?

See above

182 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:01:58pm

re: #178 Obdicut

I already explained.

You said Markos approved of their killing. He did not. He said he felt nothing. Even later, when he said he was angry at them, in no way did he say he approved.

The statement Markos actually made is terrible enough without changing it into something worse, and you should stop misrepresenting it.

183 Hugo  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:02:23pm

re: #165 webevintage

re: #165 webevintage

I do not agree with that Murdoch fellow, at all. I do believe his statements are racist. In response to your questions: No, Yes, No. ... I know I am not racist; but in all honesty, I do wonder if perhaps I don't recognize it when I see it. I seem to be on the wrong side of things here. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place (this site) to help me "know it when I see it." Dig?

184 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:03:16pm

re: #178 Obdicut

I already explained.

You said Markos approved of their killing. He did not. He said he felt nothing. Even later, when he said he was angry at them, in no way did he say he approved.

The statement Markos actually made is terrible enough without changing it into something worse, and you should stop misrepresenting it.

Well poor fucking Markos. I made him look bad.

[spit]

185 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:04:26pm

re: #170 Spare O'Lake

Of course not, silly, anyone knows that. And they are kept down by it too. And they can't afford decent legal representation either. And most judges are white too.
Another nontroversy?

I suppose you could call it a nontrovery, if you wanted to be an asshole. I call it a pressing issue, and one the directly affects the lives of tens of millions of Americans.

A nontroversy would be, for example, the manufactured outrage over the lack of a successful prosecution against 4 members of the NBPP. THAT is a nontroversy.

186 Hugo  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:04:27pm

re: #166 Slumbering Behemoth

Thank you, nice person, for not calling me "partisan." That would have hurt. "Stupid" I can live with.

187 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:05:05pm

re: #184 NJDhockeyfan

Well poor fucking Markos. I made him look bad.

[spit]

Actually, you made yourself look bad.

188 Ericus58  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:05:13pm

re: #150 windsagio

you forgot 'whats a few murders?' too, see?

re: #144 Ericus58

I think you are asking me to dance here.... if I'm wrong, all good. I'd rather not.

189 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:05:18pm

re: #176 Obdicut

If we're gonna start splitting hairs, I believe the word he used was "approve", not "support".

Though you do make a good argument, saying "screw them" regarding the murder and mutilation of four men doesn't exactly show any sense of disapproval of the act.

190 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:05:23pm

re: #184 NJDhockeyfan

Well poor fucking Markos. I made him look bad.

[spit]

So you simply don't care that you're distorting what he said?

That's a strange attitude from someone who's protesting about accuracy.

191 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:06:10pm

If you are motivated by massive amounts of money given to you by private industry to go into a war zone and sling a gun, that does not make you a soldier, and that does not entitle you to the same respect an actual solider gets.

So despite my hippie hippie OMG fairy liberal vibe, I do actually know guys who have been over there. And they despise those Blackwater types because those blackwater types make their job harder. Our armed forces have discipline and have to play by the rules and do things right. These "security" guys don't. They're basically free agents, running around with no military command structure, making the actual military's job harder.

So continue to feel free to tee off on Kos, I know that's a hard meme to drop, even six years later.

192 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:07:01pm

re: #184 NJDhockeyfan

Well poor fucking Markos. I made him look bad.

[spit]

So basically this whole thread is about how much NJD hates Kos, lol

You know, I don't think you've made it clear enough! Maybe you should repeat it a few dozen more times so we understand

193 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:07:22pm

re: #189 Slumbering Behemoth

I don't think it's splitting hairs to note that Markos didn't support or approve of their killing. Markos's lengthier explanation makes it clear he doesn't approve of or support the killing and chaos that generally happens in a war zone.

It's important not to distort what people have said, even if what they really said was bad too. Very important.

194 windsagio  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:08:20pm

re: #184 NJDhockeyfan

Its really amazing to watch someone so deeply programmed that they just have to hate the people they're told to hate.

so for Hugo and NJD
:

195 Hugo  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:08:47pm

re: #158 RadicalModerate

151, that's me. What is a "troll?"

196 webevintage  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:08:57pm

re: #184 NJDhockeyfan

Well poor fucking Markos. I made him look bad.

[spit]

No you lied about what he said....

197 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:09:19pm

re: #185 Fozzie Bear

I suppose you could call it a nontrovery, if you wanted to be an asshole.

You should at least spell it correctly.
Lady Justice needs to be blind and even-handed.

198 Amory Blaine  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:09:50pm

People weren't out mass protesting Bush until he started playing cowboy. Well into his term. Obama wasn't even sworn in and the threats were coming. Look at it now, 18 months in and these wingers are batshit crazy. People were marching against Bush because he was a warmongering failure. These fucking retards don't have such principles.

199 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:10:23pm

re: #190 Obdicut

So you simply don't care that you're distorting what he said?

That's a strange attitude from someone who's protesting about accuracy.

Sorry dude, why don't you tell me what great things he said about those murdered Americans.

200 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:13:11pm

re: #199 NJDhockeyfan

Sorry dude, why don't you tell me what great things he said about those murdered Americans.

I didn't say that he said great things.

So now you're going to distort what I'm saying?

That's shitty of you.

I know you're feeling crappy. I hope you're recovering well. But if you want to criticize what Markos said, criticize what he said-- I'll be right there with you-- but don't criticize an exaggerated version of what he said. That poisons the discourse.

You cannot simultaneously protest that you want accuracy and be comfortable with being inaccurate yourself.

201 calochortus  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:13:28pm

re: #190 Obdicut

So you simply don't care that you're distorting what he said?

That's a strange attitude from someone who's protesting about accuracy.

Ya know, I try not to get involved too much in this sort of discussion, but it would appear to me the answer to that question is "yes".

202 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:14:11pm

re: #194 windsagio

Its really amazing to watch someone so deeply programmed that they just have to hate the people they're told to hate.

Who gave you your marching orders?
Look in the mirror, fellah.

203 Amory Blaine  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:14:12pm

So it seems we must revere mercenaries to be patriotic.

204 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:14:27pm

re: #199 NJDhockeyfan

Sorry dude, why don't you tell me what great things he said about those murdered Americans.

And now you're repeating yourself again

205 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:15:51pm

re: #202 Spare O'Lake

Um, if he looks in the mirror to find out who gave him his marching orders, then he's looking at himself-- and is therefore an independent thinker, giving himself orders.

Not quite as snappy as you hoped, I think.

206 windsagio  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:15:55pm

re: #202 Spare O'Lake

Tag trouble!


Anyways, its more fun if you guess.

That's why I like to post KITNA for this kind of discussion, because it pretty much outlines whose giving the orders... WITH MUSIC!

207 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:17:08pm

So how many racist comments by the GOP and my organizations the GOP is pandering to, is one "screw them" by a liberal worth? I got an acutuary here, he's gonna run some numbers

208 darthstar  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:18:12pm

re: #207 WindUpBird

So how many racist comments by the GOP and my organizations the GOP is pandering to, is one "screw them" by a liberal worth? I got an acutuary here, he's gonna run some numbers

All of them.
/

209 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:18:12pm

re: #207 WindUpBird

So how many racist comments by the GOP and my organizations the GOP is pandering to, is one "screw them" by a liberal worth? I got an acutuary here, he's gonna run some numbers

-my argh pimf

210 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:18:39pm

re: #200 Obdicut

I didn't say that he said great things.

So now you're going to distort what I'm saying?

That's shitty of you.

I know you're feeling crappy. I hope you're recovering well. But if you want to criticize what Markos said, criticize what he said-- I'll be right there with you-- but don't criticize an exaggerated version of what he said. That poisons the discourse.

You cannot simultaneously protest that you want accuracy and be comfortable with being inaccurate yourself.

Thanks for your concern with my getting better. I have had a lot of lizards worry about me. You people are the best.

Lets just say I think Markos's 'screw them' comment was extremely vial and his interview saying he's proud of the comment makes him a disgusting person.

211 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:21:32pm

After listening to the NPR broadcast, I couldn't help but notice Mr. Williams' voice training has him sounding almost human. Now that they have the voice down, they should start on the brain modifications and clean some of that crap out.

212 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:22:33pm

re: #208 darthstar

All of them.
/

It's funny, I don't even read Kos, and I don't like the comment culture there AT ALL, it's why I'm here.

I just have a hard time getting worked up about a guy bitching about mercenaries, when I know a couple of soldiers who were in Iraq, who say the EXACT SAME THING, who have had to deal with messes that Blackwater guys leave for them. messes that could result in them being, you know, killed.

and I bet NJD knows a few guys that were over there, who also say the exact same thing. But of course he would never admit it, because there's a thing! And there's internet! And a blogger said a thing six years ago! And also chappaquiddick!

213 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:23:09pm

re: #210 NJDhockeyfan

Lets just say I think Markos's 'screw them' comment was extremely vial and his interview saying he's proud of the comment makes him a disgusting person.

That is fine. The only objection I had was you saying that he approved of their killing, when he didn't.

214 allegro  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:23:43pm

re: #210 NJDhockeyfan

his interview saying he's proud of the comment makes him a disgusting person.

You're misrepresenting again or your reading comprehension is apparently failing. Where in this does he indicate that he'd proud of the statement?

MOULITSAS: Absolutely. To me in a way it’s funny that they have not updated their talking points in two years. And so they want to keep resurrecting an old quote, there’s nothing I can do about it. What I can do is I can say the fact is the reason, the context for that quote was solidarity with my brothers and sisters in arms, Marines and soldiers. I wore combat boots. I served during the first Gulf war and people are making a choice between private armies and mercenaries. I make my choice. I stand behind our men and women in uniform and I’m not going to apologize for that. But they’re going to keep resurrecting that and that’s fine. That’s what they do. They smear, they attack, they don’t like the fact that people are getting engaged in politics, that people are getting involved. There are too many turf to protect so they’ll keep doing that and that’s fine. I can fight back.

215 sagehen  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:25:39pm

re: #212 WindUpBird

and I bet NJD knows a few guys that were over there, who also say the exact same thing. But of course he would never admit it, because there's a thing! And there's internet! And a blogger said a thing six years ago! And also chappaquiddick!

You forgot Clinton's penis.

216 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:25:58pm

Markos is a tool, and DKos has been known to be a safe harbor for Antisemitism and hate speech for a long time now.

If the site is undergoing some form of reformation, then good for them. But based on their past performance, I will not be quick to give that site the benefit of the doubt.

217 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:26:49pm

re: #210 NJDhockeyfan

Lets just say I think Markos's 'screw them' comment was extremely vial vile and his interview saying he's proud of the comment makes him a disgusting person.

FTFY. I think he did a disgusting thing. I would not say that made him a disgusting person. And I would not define him by an emotional outburst from 6 years ago.

218 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:28:27pm

0re: #214 allegro

Charles said he was proud of it. I'll take Charles's word over yours.

219 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:30:19pm

Back to the actual subject at hand, which is the NAACP and racist and not, you know a six year old blog comment by the Great Orange Satan, check out Hannity:

Look! Hannity and Breitbart have found themselves a black guy from an organiztion body's ever heard of that does nothing to say the NAACP sucks!

Note if you type in "New York Civil Rights Coalition" into the googlenews, you get ONE result. ONE. Fox News.

I wonder if that astroturf is good enough to play some stickball on?

220 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:31:21pm

re: #215 sagehen

You forgot Clinton's penis.

GOD it's EVERYWHERE

I was at the deli and I was looking at the tv set and it was just penises all over the chyron on CNN what will I tell my children

221 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:33:19pm

re: #218 NJDhockeyfan

0

Charles said he was proud of it. I'll take Charles's word over yours.

Charles has actually linked to Kos for polls, you know. And IIRC you started blowing your top and going HOW DARE YOU LINK TO KOS?!?!?! because...someone linked to Kos in this thread.

222 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:35:31pm

Time to spend time with the kids. Later...

223 palomino  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:36:33pm

re: #184 NJDhockeyfan

Well poor fucking Markos. I made him look bad.

[spit]

Markos can handle himself. Here he makes Tancredo wet his pants (although Markos did it in a dickish way.)

224 windsagio  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:37:41pm

I think WUB is making a really strong point here.

KOS has evolved into That which must be hated to people, and that's the opposite of thought.

Disclosure: I don't read KOS either I admit, its boring >>

226 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:39:38pm

re: #224 windsagio

I think WUB is making a really strong point here.

KOS has evolved into That which must be hated to people, and that's the opposite of thought.

Disclosure: I don't read KOS either I admit, its boring >>

Well, that's how you know what side you're on! You hate the right guy!

227 allegro  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:41:02pm

re: #218 NJDhockeyfan

Charles said he was proud of it. I'll take Charles's word over yours.

I posted the exact quote? You can't make a decision on your own?

228 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:41:55pm

re: #227 allegro

I posted the exact quote? You can't make a decision on your own?

Okay! Now that we're done rehashing a six year old blog entry, how about that NAACP? :D

229 Hugo  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:45:19pm

Is there a difference between racism and idealogyism, besides the object of one's hatred?

230 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:46:22pm

re: #229 Hugo

Yes. idealogyism isn't a word.

231 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:47:21pm

More pushback against the NAACP from the Dallas News

This Mark David guy is a conservative radio talker who guests for Rush Limbaugh, so I guess the racist apologist apple don't fall far from the tree.

Here's some grade-A insane from his "article":

They even have an October march planned to answer the tea party's non-existent hostility. When I was a child, a civil rights march was an example of America at its best. How sad that with those battles won, the inheritors of that proud legacy now stoop to such shameful depths.

SHAMEFUL DEPTHS OMG TELL ME ALL ABOUT IT TEXAS MAN

232 Hugo  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:47:27pm

re: #229 Hugo

Let me berate myself. You moron, the made-up word is "ideologism."

233 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:52:27pm

More Dallas News pushback from white guys who have found a handy black person to trash the NAACP

My oversized rhinestone-studded cowboy hat's off to you, Dallas Morning News! yee-hah!

234 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:52:51pm

re: #232 Hugo

Let me berate myself. You moron, the made-up word is "ideologism."

so your name wouldn't happen to start with Y and end with 92, would it?

235 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 2:58:32pm

re: #231 WindUpBird

More pushback against the NAACP from the Dallas News

This Mark David guy is a conservative radio talker who guests for Rush Limbaugh, so I guess the racist apologist apple don't fall far from the tree.

Here's some grade-A insane from his "article":

SHAMEFUL DEPTHS OMG TELL ME ALL ABOUT IT TEXAS MAN

It's Mark Davis, just to be sure all the deserved opprobrium goes to the right place. He uses the Breitbart line of calling John Lewis a liar:

Is this what our so-called civil rights leaders are reduced to? The ravings of fraud-mongers like Al Sharpton? The lies of formerly proud heroes like U.S. Rep. John Lewis, who asserted without evidence that critics had pelted him with n-bombs as he walked to the House to cast a vote?

And yes, he's a frequent sub for Limbaugh. And yes, he's scum. This stuff is just exploding. I'm starting to worry.

236 RadicalModerate  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 3:06:53pm

I'm getting ready for some Grade-A lunacy in the next few minutes.

Mark Williams is going to be Wolf Blitzer's guest on CNN regarding the NAACP's recent statement.

237 Hugo  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 3:13:56pm

re: #234 WindUpBird

No, it doesn't. But there I go, earnestly stepping into some inside joke that I don't understand.

238 Hugo  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 5:50:33pm

I would point out that I originally had asked for clarification on what, specifically, constitutes racism. Not one of you here could provide a thoughtful or cogent response; not that you have any obligation to do so. Instead I was called stupid and ignorant because it was not so crystal clear to me as it was to you. Most of whom replied inferred that I was incapable of understanding the concept because I was, in fact, a racist; or stupid or ignorant or a "troll," whatever that means. One even took the time to write that I was not worth the time to educate. Charles himself stated I was a racist apologist/ defender. Not racism on your part I am sure, but it is wholly ironic and, might I add, completely congruent with the practices of the same people you regard with such contempt.

I'll leave you all now to your mental masturbation after these final thoughts: (1) the life of a word is its meaning; and if you so betray the meaning of a word, you destroy it. (2) many of you would be well-served to learn something about persuasion. I am only an amateur, but I don't believe that name-calling and mockery are in the persuader's playbook. Though we share an abhorrence of evil, mean-spirited, base rhetoric, we certainly are worlds apart in our abilities to communicate our rationale.

239 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jul 14, 2010 6:17:24pm

Once upon a time there was a country named the United States of Amnesia. Everyone who came to live there immediately forgot all his quarrels with other kinds of people, and the whole land lived in peace and harmony. Their motto was "all men (and women, obviously) are created equal". And everyone was welcome to come and live in this glorious land. Poles, Germans, Irish, Jews, and especially black people from Africa, who were highly prized for their willingness to work hard for next to nothing.

Then, one day, a couple of evil people noticed that folks weren't noticing any differences in skin color or facial features, and they thought that was bad, because they wanted to be noticed for those things. So they founded a wicked organization to force people to notice! And, sadly, that great, happy land has never stopped noticing since, and it's not all that happy anymore. The End.


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