The Oil Stops

US News • Views: 2,312

For the first time since April, the flow of oil from the Deepwater Horizon well has been completely shut off.

Which is good news, but before you start partying — it’s not a permanent solution.

BP will be monitoring pressure under the cap. High pressure is good, because it shows there’s only a single leak. Low pressure, below 6,000 pounds per square inch or so, could mean more leaks farther down in the well.

The cap is not a permanent fix. BP is drilling two relief wells so it can pump mud and cement into the leaking well in hopes of plugging it for good. Those are expected to be completed in August.

Jump to bottom

491 comments
1 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:26:07pm

How long until we can forget all about this disaster and refuse to learn any lessons from it?

2 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:26:53pm

Must be part of Obama's seekrit conspiracy.

3 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:27:17pm

Great! It only look them 3 months to do this. Lets pray the worst is over.

4 albusteve  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:27:26pm

re: #1 ralphieboy

How long until we can forget all about this disaster and refuse to learn any lessons from it?

huh?...what disaster?

5 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:28:05pm

Even if it's a temporary fix, if it stops or diminishes the flow, it is a good thing.

Watching the live feed.

6 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:29:03pm

I'm betting there are some serious notes taken by at least a few of the engineers involved...if not, someone should go gather them now, before the little details disappear.

But great news to hear, better when the cement and mud wrap it all up.

7 Kragar  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:29:19pm

re: #4 albusteve

huh?...what disaster?

OMG, Did you not even watch the series finale of "The Hills"?

///

8 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:29:21pm

This can only be a positive for the administration. Good for them.

9 researchok  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:31:50pm

That's one giant leap, for sure.

Good news all around.

10 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:32:39pm

This is great news..Pressure should stay at 8500psi.. We hope..
That is so much pressure..I'm sure the computer models are accurate in modeling...
At MINSY when they wanted to cut through Steel with high powered water it only took 4000 psi in a nozzle to make the cut..This is Double the pressure..If it blows it's not going to be pretty

11 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:32:51pm

Good news.

However: It still revealed that oil companies really do not actually have a plan to deal with accidents of this nature.

This is a continuing problem.

12 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:33:04pm

"The oil stops."

Back to business as usual.

We humans will learn nothing from this.

13 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:34:50pm

re: #12 Cato the Elder

"The oil stops."

Back to business as usual.

We humans will learn nothing from this.

Oh BS..There will be engineering going on for years from this accident.

14 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:35:55pm

re: #12 Cato the Elder

Good afternoon all...
Yes, Cato, we will. We will learn how to stop it if it ever happens again.

15 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:36:46pm

re: #13 HoosierHoops

Oh BS..There will be engineering going on for years from this accident.

I'm talking about our oil addiction. Worse than fuckin' crack.

16 albusteve  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:36:48pm

re: #12 Cato the Elder

"The oil stops."

Back to business as usual.

We humans will learn nothing from this.

we need more battery powered stuff so we don't have as much energy...stuff like trucks and buildings

17 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:36:49pm

One thing we have learned is that every single contingency plan every oil company has is a load of complete bullshit.

18 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:37:00pm

re: #14 CapeCoddah

Good afternoon all...
Yes, Cato, we will. We will learn how to stop it if it ever happens again.

Hi You!
You are so right

19 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:37:25pm

re: #14 CapeCoddah

Good afternoon all...
Yes, Cato, we will. We will learn how to stop it if it ever happens again.

Bull. The next accident will be nothing like the last.

20 freetoken  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:37:28pm

re: #12 Cato the Elder

We humans will learn nothing from this.

Oh C'mon, we've learnt plenty:

That Obama hates America because he won't let us drill for our own oil; and
That Obama hates Louisiana because he didn't act fast enough.

You're just not paying attention!

21 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:37:57pm

Looks like the ROV is currently inspecting the base of the wellhead and BOP for leaks.

22 albusteve  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:38:51pm

re: #17 Amory Blaine

One thing we have learned is that every single contingency plan every oil company has is a load of complete bullshit.

my confidence is at a record low...and I'm with Cato on this one

23 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:39:23pm

Here's a great website with 10 Gulf cameras on one page.

24 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:39:52pm

re: #15 Cato the Elder

And as necessary to survival as air and water. Like it or not.

25 b_Snark  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:40:08pm

re: #1 ralphieboy

How long until we can forget all about this disaster and refuse to learn any lessons from it?

How long is a weekend?

26 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:41:04pm

re: #18 HoosierHoops

Hi You!
You are so right

Hi you right back!
And on this, I will be smug and say, I know I am right. Common sense.

27 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:41:09pm

re: #21 Bubblehead II

Looks like the ROV is currently inspecting the base of the wellhead and BOP for leaks.

It's awesome to watch Technology at work a mile under the water..
Who are these ROV drivers? I want to see a special on 60 minutes on them..
I'll bet it's a cool job and pays a lot of money

28 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:41:40pm

re: #1 ralphieboy

How long until we can forget all about this disaster and refuse to learn any lessons from it?

That would presume the people who managed to figure out how to drill 18K ft below the surface of the gulf, on a non-anchored platform, and to be able to not only vertically, but horizontally, drill through rock, and to bring the oil to the surface are complete dolts and have no clue. so, that's a self disproving statement. To get where they did in the first place shows a high degree of thinking went into the entire operation in the first place.

It's not like humans haven't seen disaster from their exploration of the way out there frontiers, in distance and engineering, but cut the actual engineers some slack. The good news is when the next thing happens, the "fixes" happen fast after the bad news. Hell of a way to learn, but "we" usually rise to that challenge.

If the "bean counters" had said "yes" to the third BOP (see all the new terms we know, but didn't want to learn?), I'd suspect we'd have never been having this conversation.

On top of that, the people way above the engineers and tradesmen who stopped the leak, will forever have their bank accounts damaged (yes, they make a lot, but this will cost them) and on that motivation, they'll even want to know how to not let this happen again.

I think a "thank you" to those who put in a lot of hours, not resting, literally, to stem and now stop the flow, is a more appropriate response.

29 b_Snark  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:41:43pm

re: #11 Obdicut

Good news.

However: It still revealed that oil companies really do not actually have a plan to deal with accidents of this nature.

This is a continuing problem.

Sure they do. Deny, deny deny.

Deny with as much conviction as possible and nothing will happen.

30 b_Snark  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:42:57pm

re: #16 albusteve

we need more battery powered stuff so we don't have as much energy...stuff like trucks and buildings

What ever happened to the Flintstone vehicles?

31 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:43:39pm

re: #10 HoosierHoops

And that would be the pressure above "ambient" pressure i.e. all that water right? So the oil is at 8500PSI beyond the water pressure. Whoa. That is some serious contained mechanical energy. I just hope the sand scoured BOP and casement stand up over the month.

32 teleskiguy  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:44:13pm

The well cap looks like a gigantic Mr. Fusion from Back To The Future Part II!

Hee.

33 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:46:11pm

re: #30 b_sharp

What ever happened to the Flintstone vehicles?

Coming soon from GM. *NEW!* and *IMPROVED!* Will be far more aerodynamic!

Problem: Modern braking shoe soles to be made from petroleum products.

34 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:46:49pm

re: #33 Curt

Fred never had shoes...

35 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:47:09pm

re: #24 CapeCoddah

And as necessary to survival as air and water. Like it or not.

Umm...not quite.

A human can go for up to ten minutes without air, and maybe five days without water.

I have gone for months at a time without using any oil.

36 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:47:29pm

re: #34 Amory Blaine

Fred never had shoes...

And we don't have inch thick callouses....:)

37 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:48:43pm

re: #26 CapeCoddah

Hi you right back!
And on this, I will be smug and say, I know I am right. Common sense.

When a pipe busted in the Control room and Scrammed the Reactor on the Thresher, the Navy started the SubSafe program.. An intense Engineering program...The critical review of processing and procedures and material quality has assured the Navy that this accident should never happen again..
I Spent 2 years of my life to become Subsafe Qualified..It wasn't fun But my point is this..We learn from our mistakes and using technology we solve disasters..

38 teleskiguy  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:48:47pm

re: #35 Cato the Elder

Umm...not quite.

A human can go for up to ten minutes without air, and maybe five days without water.

I have gone for months at a time without using any oil.

Just being Devil's Advocate Cato. I assume you've gone months without using gasoline, but what about you're use of petroleum based plastics?

39 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:48:56pm

re: #35 Cato the Elder

Umm...not quite.

A human can go for up to ten minutes without air, and maybe five days without water.

I have gone for months at a time without using any oil.

No plastic products? No medical stuff? No MacDonald's milkshakes (oh, yes, they have "long chain polymers in them to keep from melting so fast...that's plastic)?

40 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:48:58pm

re: #35 Cato the Elder

Umm...not quite.

A human can go for up to ten minutes without air, and maybe five days without water.

I have gone for months at a time without using any oil.

Addendum: except for the few drops I need to keep hinges from squeaking and gunz in working order.

41 b_Snark  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:50:24pm

re: #33 Curt

Coming soon from GM. *NEW!* and *IMPROVED!* Will be far more aerodynamic!

Problem: Modern braking shoe soles to be made from petroleum products.

Just strap a couple of chunks of old tire to your feet. Instant traction.

42 abolitionist  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:50:25pm

I can't understand how relief wells could be used to pump mud and cement into the leaking well, unless at least one intersects it. Is the drilling really that precise?

43 Kragar  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:51:18pm

Mistake to free Lockerbie bomber: British ambassador

"The new British government is clear that Megrahi's release was a mistake," ambassador Nigel Sheinwald said, stressing that under the country's laws, power over justice issues have been devolved to Scotland.

"The British government deeply regrets the continuing anguish that his release on compassionate grounds has caused the families of Megrahi's victims in the UK as well as in the US."

Megrahi was released from jail in Scottish prison in August 2009 on compassionate grounds because he was said to be suffering from terminal cancer and had only three months to live. Reports have now emerged that he could live at least another 10 years.

44 filetandrelease  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:51:29pm

Very good news, hat tip to the engineers who designed the cap and the front line crews that got it in place, a very high tech difficult job all the way around.

And with tar balls starting to show up on the east coast of FL, non too soon.

The school of hard knocks can be brutal but it is a very effective teacher, don't under estimate what the oil industry learned. This disaster cost a bundle, not something they take lightly.

45 albusteve  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:52:09pm

re: #42 abolitionist

I can't understand how relief wells could be used to pump mud and cement into the leaking well, unless at least one intersects it. Is the drilling really that precise?

I can shoot a sparrow with a bow and arrow

46 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:52:11pm

re: #24 CapeCoddah

And as necessary to survival as air and water. Like it or not.

So 100,000 years ago we were using internal combustion, huh?

Many are the times I read in school of a fossilized Corvette LS1 unearthed from the mesolithic era

47 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:52:54pm

re: #35 Cato the Elder

Have you gone for months without using any by-product of oil? Some clothing, your computer, Haku's vest, a hairbrush, a countertop, does some of the food you buy come in plastic wrap or styrofoam, visited a doctor or dentist do you have linoleum or carpet Do your shoes have soles?? I would say none of us have EVER gone a day without oil.

48 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:53:21pm

re: #39 Curt

No plastic products? No medical stuff? No MacDonald's milkshakes (oh, yes, they have "long chain polymers in them to keep from melting so fast...that's plastic)?

And when was plastic invented?

49 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:53:23pm

re: #41 b_sharp

Just strap a couple of chunks of old tire to your feet. Instant traction.

AIIEEEEE!!!! Petroleum PRODUCTS!...oh, yes, another culture did this and were recycling tires before it was fashionable....

50 Soap_Man  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:53:26pm

This is great news.

But for the life of me, I cannot understand how all Americans aren't behind alternative energy investment.

For the liberals, it is great because of the environmental effects, and for the conservatives, it is great because we will stop sending money to hostile countries and will help create new American industry with good jobs.

That's not to say there isn't crossover between the two sides of the political spectrum on the reasons listed above. The point is that there is a damn good reason for everyone to be behind this, no matter what the priorities or reasons are. Subsidies, tax-breaks and funding for the private development of better tech is the best use of tax money I can think of.

If we can't all get behind this, then, well, I just don't know what the hell is wrong with people.

51 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:53:41pm

re: #37 HoosierHoops

Hoops, we would still be living in caves if we had never tried and failed.

52 filetandrelease  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:54:12pm

re: #42 abolitionist

I can't understand how relief wells could be used to pump mud and cement into the leaking well, unless at least one intersects it. Is the drilling really that precise?

They are "hoping" to intersect the original well somewhere below the sea bed. It is very precise.

53 abolitionist  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:54:38pm

re: #52 filetandrelease

They are "hoping" to intersect the original well somewhere below the sea bed. It is very precise.

Thanks.

54 freetoken  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:54:43pm

Since we're discussing a fossil fuel, let me add the following:

A couple of days ago I posted a Pages entry on a recent survey of Americans' interest and knowledge of science. In that entry I mentioned that there were agents active in the public square of this nation (particularly regarding the issues of evolution and AGW) who actively engage in what I call "campaigns of ignorance."

Today we have a typical example of a campaign of ignorance:

Ads Backed by Fossil-Fuel Interests Argue 'CO2 Is Green'

The organization "C02 is Green" funded a half-page advertisement in The Washington Post urging people to call their senators and seek a vote against "the president's cap-and-trade bill that will increase your cost of living and not change the climate.

"The bill is based on the false premise that man-made CO2 is a major cause of climate change," the ad says. "Real, empirical evidence indicates it is not."

The bolded statement is a lie and is being told to the American populace in order to keep Americans happily ignorant.

55 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:54:44pm

re: #46 WindUpBird

LOL, I love the fossilized Corvette crack... upding for that. No, we were hunting animals for.... OIL.

56 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:54:53pm

re: #39 Curt

Those can all be made with other stuff, dude.

They're just not currently.

You can't replace air with anything other than air.

57 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:55:02pm

re: #50 Soap_Man

This is great news.

But for the life of me, I cannot understand how all Americans aren't behind alternative energy investment.

For the liberals, it is great because of the environmental effects, and for the conservatives, it is great because we will stop sending money to hostile countries and will help create new American industry with good jobs.

That's not to say there isn't crossover between the two sides of the political spectrum on the reasons listed above. The point is that there is a damn good reason for everyone to be behind this, no matter what the priorities or reasons are. Subsidies, tax-breaks and funding for the private development of better tech is the best use of tax money I can think of.

If we can't all get behind this, then, well, I just don't know what the hell is wrong with people.

Plus it would be great for future generations that both sides claim to cherish so much.

58 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:55:19pm

re: #48 WindUpBird

And when was plastic invented?

Long enough ago we have it permeate much of our lives, most particularly in wide spread use, by my calculation since the post WWII time frame. We're sorta stuck with lots of it.

59 Kragar  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:55:40pm

Oil is currently necessary for our survival because without it, those willing to use oil would roll right over us militarily and economically.

Find an alternative and then we can survive with out it.

60 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:55:41pm

re: #47 CapeCoddah

Have you gone for months without using any by-product of oil? Some clothing, your computer, Haku's vest, a hairbrush, a countertop, does some of the food you buy come in plastic wrap or styrofoam, visited a doctor or dentist do you have linoleum or carpet Do your shoes have soles?? I would say none of us have EVER gone a day without oil.

Certainly.

But there was a time before oil when no one ever thought of plastics.

Hemp is the answer!

61 The Curmudgeon  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:56:19pm

And so, class, what do we learn from this? Pick one:

a. We should drill in more shallow water, or on land, where these things can be quickly contained.

b. We should ban all drilling and live in the woods.

c. We should give thinks to Obama for his leadership.

d. We should pass another stimulus bill.

e. We should confiscate all oil companies and let Congress run them

62 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:56:21pm

re: #48 WindUpBird

Right after the discovery of oil.

63 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:56:31pm

re: #59 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Oil is currently necessary for our survival because without it, those willing to use oil would roll right over us militarily and economically.

Find an alternative and then we can survive with out it.

Well, there's that :D

I mean in the abstract sense. It's not essential like water is, it's essential like nukes are :D

64 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:56:43pm

re: #61 The Curmudgeon

None of the above.

65 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:57:03pm

re: #62 CapeCoddah

Right after the discovery of oil.

And when were humans building civilizations? A long time before the discovery of oil

66 filetandrelease  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:57:10pm

re: #50 Soap_Man
It puzzles me why so many on the left won't back nuclear energy. What a great way for the two parties to compromise.

With the advent of electric cars coming, we are going to need a lot more juice.

67 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:57:32pm

re: #27 HoosierHoops

Sure, but I would hate to be the operator that lost one.

68 Kragar  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:57:33pm

re: #61 The Curmudgeon

And so, class, what do we learn from this? Pick one:

a. We should drill in more shallow water, or on land, where these things can be quickly contained.

b. We should ban all drilling and live in the woods.

c. We should give thinks to Obama for his leadership.

d. We should pass another stimulus bill.

e. We should confiscate all oil companies and let Congress run them

f. Begin culling population centers worldwide at random to reduce the global demand for oil.
///

69 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:57:46pm

re: #61 The Curmudgeon

y: we should make a gigantic push to get off the juice, how about that

70 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:57:53pm

re: #51 CapeCoddah

Hoops, we would still be living in caves if we had never tried and failed.

We were not exactly living in caves before the oil revolution occurred.

71 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:58:06pm

re: #51 CapeCoddah

Hoops, we would still be living in caves if we had never tried and failed.

It would appear some people want to go back to caves...
We continue to invest in green energy solutions...We advance as a nation..Not run to the effen hills yelling the sky is falling..
IMO

72 teleskiguy  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:58:11pm

re: #60 Cato the Elder

Hemp is the answer!


AMEN BROTHER!

73 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:58:16pm

re: #70 Cato the Elder

We were not exactly living in caves before the oil revolution occurred.

people forget those pesky Romans...

74 Kragar  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:58:50pm

re: #73 WindUpBird

people forget those pesky Romans...

Eh? And what have the Romans ever done for us?

75 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:59:19pm

re: #42 abolitionist

I can't understand how relief wells could be used to pump mud and cement into the leaking well, unless at least one intersects it. Is the drilling really that precise?

Yep..it is...saw a diagram of it the other day around the net, then they check the proximity with a magnetic sensor to get right to the original pipe and connect. People with pocket protectors still do some serious thinking about how to do that...and get rover on Mars to drive about by themselves and stuff like that.

76 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:59:21pm

re: #74 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Eh? And what have the Romans ever done for us?

They gave us Ceasar's Palace!

77 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:59:26pm

re: #67 Bubblehead II

Sure, but I would hate to be the operator that lost one.

Probably not that many Job opening to drive an ROV.

78 Soap_Man  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:59:30pm

re: #66 filetandrelease

It puzzles me why so many on the left won't back nuclear energy. What a great way for the two parties to compromise.

With the advent of electric cars coming, we are going to need a lot more juice.

Well, I support nuclear energy, but "what do we do with the waste?" is a legit concern.

There is so much not-in-my-backyard stuff going on (and I don't blame them), we might have to shoot it to the damn moon. But somebody would be pissed about that too, I'm sure.

79 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:59:33pm

Keeping my fingers crossed . . .

80 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:59:38pm

re: #73 WindUpBird

people forget those pesky Romans...

Yep. We had underfloor heating two thousand years ago.

81 albusteve  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 1:59:44pm

re: #72 teleskiguy

AMEN BROTHER!

a year ago you would have been laughed off the blog...and still people don't get hemp

82 brookly red  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:00:05pm

so if the cap holds are they still going to drill the relief thingies?

83 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:00:32pm

re: #65 WindUpBird

And when were humans building civilizations? A long time before the discovery of oil

Not sure if we are ready to regress like that.

Survey anyone? Copper Era - The Sequel?

84 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:00:32pm

Hemp, hump, homp! Today I'm on a romp.

85 filetandrelease  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:00:50pm

Correct me if I am wrong, but with the current world population as it is with out fossil fuels wouldn't a lot people starve to death?

86 albusteve  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:00:59pm

re: #80 Cato the Elder

Yep. We had underfloor heating two thousand years ago.

and overhead water supplies

87 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:01:02pm

re: #3 NJDhockeyfan

Great! It only look them 3 months to do this. Lets pray the worst is over.

All of this is brand new technology and engineering, developed especially and specifically for this situation.

It would have been nice if it had been available at the time this happened but it wasn't. Considering that it wasn't, I think it's amazing what they've been able to do in 3 months.

BP still on my shit list, though.

88 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:01:21pm

re: #82 brookly red

so if the cap holds are they still going to drill the relief thingies?

yes, they have to.
The cap cannot hold forever. They need to seal this permanently.

89 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:01:34pm

re: #83 Curt

Not sure if we are ready to regress like that.

Survey anyone? Copper Era - The Sequel?

If you think we'll "regress" simply because we're using other forms of building materials and fuel, you don't have a whole lot of faith in humanity

90 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:01:37pm

re: #66 filetandrelease

It puzzles me why so many on the left won't back nuclear energy. What a great way for the two parties to compromise.

With the advent of electric cars coming, we are going to need a lot more juice.

Yeah...sucks when Congress can't change the laws of thermodynamics, eh?

91 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:01:44pm

re: #85 filetandrelease

Not if we replaced fossil fuels with a different form of energy production, no. ANd if we were just much smarter about our usage of energy and materials.

That's kind of the whole point.

92 ryannon  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:02:04pm

re: #78 Soap_Man

Well, I support nuclear energy, but "what do we do with the waste?" is a legit concern.

There is so much not-in-my-backyard stuff going on (and I don't blame them), we might have to shoot it to the damn moon. But somebody would be pissed about that too, I'm sure.

The moon - that's the ticket! Just send up there in rockets.

What could possibly go wrong?

93 freetoken  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:02:07pm

re: #85 filetandrelease

Correct me if I am wrong, but with the current world population as it is with out fossil fuels wouldn't a lot people starve to death?

Unless we had alternate energy sources to replace the lost fossil fuels - then yes, probably many people would starve.

94 abolitionist  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:02:22pm

re: #85 filetandrelease

Correct me if I am wrong, but with the current world population as it is with out fossil fuels wouldn't a lot people starve to death?

Soylent Green isn't going to grow on trees.

95 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:02:35pm

re: #12 Cato the Elder

"The oil stops."

Back to business as usual.

We humans will learn nothing from this.

No.
No permits are being issued.
Business as usual is NOT going on.

96 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:02:39pm

re: #60 Cato the Elder

Certainly.

But there was a time before oil when no one ever thought of plastics.

Hemp is the answer!

LOL, Do you really want your proctologist wearing hemp gloves, Cato?

97 Kragar  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:02:49pm

NO NO NO FUCKING NO

School aims to re-teach civics with focus on faith

Call it vacation Bible school, Glenn Beck-style.

Some three dozen kids ages 10 to 15 are spending five nights this week learning what organizers — some with tea party ties — say they won't hear in school about the Constitution, the Founding Fathers and the role of faith in the birth of the United States.

"If we're going to take our country back, we've got to remember where we came from — not only as adults, but we need to teach our children," said Tim Fairfield, one of the teachers, who wore a three-cornered hat at the opening class of Vacation Liberty School. It's held in a church basement in Georgetown, a city just north of Lexington that is the site of a major Toyota assembly plant.

The curriculum includes lessons like "equal rights, not equal results," "recognize men don't create rights — only God," and "understanding falsehoods of separation of church and state."

FOR FUCK'S SAKE, NO!

98 teleskiguy  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:02:50pm

re: #81 albusteve

a year ago you would have been laughed off the blog...and still people don't get hemp

I've read in history books that at certain times during the colonial period of this continent's history in certain parts it was against the law to not grow hemp. The people back then knew it was a fabulous way to become economically independent from their colonial overlords.

99 filetandrelease  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:03:03pm

re: #78 Soap_Man
Yucca mountain could have stored all the worlds nuclear waste for centuries. But Obama shut it down.

100 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:03:04pm

A very brief history of mans use of oil.

Oil has been known and used since the most ancient times and has been mentioned by most ancient historians since the time of Herodotus. It was used chiefly as a liniment or medicine, not as a fuel. The Bible refers to pitch being used for building purposes -- cementing walls -- in Babylon.

101 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:03:18pm

re: #70 Cato the Elder

We were not exactly living in caves before the oil revolution occurred.

No, but we damned near hunted whales to extinction.

102 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:03:41pm

re: #78 Soap_Man

Well, I support nuclear energy, but "what do we do with the waste?" is a legit concern.

There is so much not-in-my-backyard stuff going on (and I don't blame them), we might have to shoot it to the damn moon. But somebody would be pissed about that too, I'm sure.

There were plans to send it to the sun, but those got nixed because the rockets might fail and crash into the oceans. At least in the Sun, it would be "at home" with the surroundings, and we wouldn't have to think about doing radiological clean up when we put colonies up there.

103 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:03:46pm

re: #85 filetandrelease

Correct me if I am wrong, but with the current world population as it is with out fossil fuels wouldn't a lot people starve to death?

you're missing most of the premise to your own question

Do you mean if the Great Gazoo took away all oil on the planet overnight?

Or do you mean if we sunk trillions into getting off the juice and actually made a concerted push (OMG FEDERAL SPENDING) to create the alt energy infrastructure so that we're not reliant on foreign petroleum imports for our needs?

104 brookly red  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:04:07pm

re: #88 reine.de.tout

yes, they have to.
The cap cannot hold forever. They need to seal this permanently.

thanks I was wondering...

105 filetandrelease  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:04:44pm

re: #91 Obdicut
Of course, but currently we don't have the will (nuclear) or the means (all others)

106 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:05:51pm

re: #105 filetandrelease

Of course, but currently we don't have the will (nuclear) or the means (all others)

At what point did we have the will to land on the moon?

At what point did we land on the moon?

107 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:06:02pm

re: #96 CapeCoddah

LOL, Do you really want your proctologist wearing hemp gloves, Cato?

Rubber.

108 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:06:45pm

re: #2 Killgore Trout

Must be part of Obama's seekrit conspiracy.

That conspiracy to keep this going for as long as possible to wreak as much havoc as possible?
/ / /

109 Kragar  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:06:46pm

re: #96 CapeCoddah

LOL, Do you really want your proctologist wearing hemp gloves, Cato?

Wait, gloves? WTF!?

110 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:07:11pm
111 McSpiff  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:07:22pm

Don't forget, most nuclear 'waste' isn't. The reason we can't reprocess a majority of this stuff is due to totally bogus nuclear proliferation concerns from the Carter Era.

112 Soap_Man  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:07:33pm

re: #99 filetandrelease

Yucca mountain could have stored all the worlds nuclear waste for centuries. But Obama shut it down.

Yeah, but I used to live in Nevada. People absolutely did not want it there.

But I don't know if you have heard this:

Judges rule Obama can't close Yucca Mountain nuclear dump

Three administrative judges within the Nuclear Regulatory Commission ruled last week that Congress had designated Yucca Mountain in 1987 to receive highly toxic waste from the Savannah River Site on the S.C.-Georgia border and other complexes that built atom bombs during the Cold War.

The panel found that President Barack Obama and Department of Energy Secretary Steven Chu, a nuclear physicist, lacked the power to close the Yucca repository unilaterally; doing so, it ruled, would require another act of Congress.

"Unless Congress directs otherwise, DOE may not single-handedly derail the legislated decision-making process by withdrawing the (Yucca repository) application. DOE's motion must therefore be denied," the judges wrote, adding that the DOE had weakened its arguments by "conceding that the application is not flawed nor the (Yucca) site unsafe."

113 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:07:34pm

re: #105 filetandrelease

Of course, but currently we don't have the will (nuclear) or the means (all others)

Yup..Politically.. Nuclear is a hot tater..
I say effen it.. Let's just shallow our Pride and hire the French to run our Nuclear plants and take care of us.. Kind of ironic isn't it?

114 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:07:36pm

re: #61 The Curmudgeon

I pick your nose.

115 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:07:39pm

re: #91 Obdicut

Not if we replaced fossil fuels with a different form of energy production, no. ANd if we were just much smarter about our usage of energy and materials.

That's kind of the whole point.

Uh, we have rovers on Mars. Serious technology. With all we have accomplished, no other sustainable source of power, to equal what oil accomplishes has ever been found. Oil IS the magic energy bullet provided for us by the Earth.

116 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:07:52pm

re: #107 Cato the Elder

Rubber.

I'm allergic to latex

117 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:08:00pm

will doesn't magically happen in America, it takes political thrust.

So.

Which political party is more reliably pushing for alternative energies?

thinking

thinking

thinking

118 blueraven  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:08:50pm

re: #35 Cato the Elder

Umm...not quite.

A human can go for up to ten minutes without air, and maybe five days without water.

I have gone for months at a time without using any oil.

There are also alternatives to oil...air and water, not so much.

119 RadicalModerate  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:09:32pm

re: #97 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

NO NO NO FUCKING NO

School aims to re-teach civics with focus on faith

FOR FUCK'S SAKE, NO!


Supply side Jesus meets the John Birch Society, with an ample supply of teabags furnished as well.

120 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:09:43pm

re: #115 CapeCoddah

Uh, we have rovers on Mars. Serious technology. With all we have accomplished, no other sustainable source of power, to equal what oil accomplishes has ever been found. Oil IS the magic energy bullet provided for us by the Earth.

Assertions are not evidence, and advancements in one field of science are not proof that advancements cannot be made, or have kept pace, in another field of science

This is really dumb un-logic here

121 Neutral President  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:10:08pm

re: #103 WindUpBird

you're missing most of the premise to your own question

Do you mean if the Great Gazoo took away all oil on the planet overnight?

Or do you mean if we sunk trillions into getting off the juice and actually made a concerted push (OMG FEDERAL SPENDING) to create the alt energy infrastructure so that we're not reliant on foreign petroleum imports for our needs?

I think he was talking about the Great Gazoo option dum-dum.

122 abolitionist  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:10:14pm

Amazing but true: About 2/3 of all the oil that will ever be gotten out of the earth will be pumped, refined, and consumed within about 70 years.

We are close to the middle of that 70 year period right now. Maybe past it.

123 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:10:16pm

re: #118 blueraven

There are also alternatives to oil...air and water, not so much.

Oh, c'mon. You can make air out of oil. Simple chemistry.

124 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:10:17pm

re: #93 freetoken

Unless we had alternate energy sources to replace the lost fossil fuels - then yes, probably many people would starve.

A real problem is getting the same energy output. The chemical energy in petroleum is way up there, compared to other sources, particularly considering the developed infrastructure.

To go to hydrogen, for example, for vehicles, would take putting an entire new system in place. May be local generating units (would need energy to operate), or a distribution network (would need energy to transport to end use points).

In any case, the economics of such things can break the bank, when you have to look carefully at the end game and daily applications.

Not impossible, just maybe not near as feasible as a few quick "USE THIS!" studies sometimes indicate.

for instance, ethanol is about 2/3rds the BTUs of gasoline. We pay the same for it per gallon, but we have to consume about a 3rd more of it to replace gas. That extra volume, if we use the current gas distro model, would have to grow to meet the demand. And, unless the stright product in mass use brought the price lower, we'd be paying 1/3rd more for the same travel/use, which...shifts more money to that, and from other places it could be expended.

We'd really need a serious bunch of people, from many disciplines, to do a detailed study and then we'd have to be ready to make hard choices on the cost involved, let along the life changes, all over the world, that would result.

125 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:10:49pm

re: #117 WindUpBird

will doesn't magically happen in America, it takes political thrust.

So.

Which political party is more reliably pushing for alternative energies?

thinking

thinking

thinking

Unless he's from a mining state which also happens to have a good nuclear waste storage feature.

The son of a Searchlight miner, Reid has a long history of supporting and protecting the interests of Nevada mining.

But he’s adamantly opposed to Yucca Mountain and for decades has worked politically to stop it

.

126 ryannon  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:10:59pm

re: #105 filetandrelease

Of course, but currently we don't have the will (nuclear) or the means (all others)

Nuclear is so last century.

LIFTRs (Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors:

127 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:11:03pm

re: #107 Cato the Elder

Rubber.

Think of the Rain forests, Cato. We have ravaged those also. What will THAT do to the environment? How do we harvest all that rubber? Oil.

128 Kragar  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:11:15pm

re: #119 RadicalModerate

Supply side Jesus meets the John Birch Society, with an ample supply of teabags furnished as well.

From the article;

"I think our kids need to know about the Founding Fathers and they need to understand the connection between God and the Founding Fathers," he said. "They don't need to hear the revisionists' stories of history."

With such weighty topics swirling, 13-year-old Matthew Porter seemed to get some of them jumbled.

"I didn't know faith, hope and charity were parts of the Constitution," he said. "I thought they made it as laws, nothing to do with church."

Although there was no talk of Democrats or Republicans during Monday's session, there was an activity geared toward teaching children the dangers of communism.

129 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:11:23pm

re: #121 ArchangelMichael

I think he was talking about the Great Gazoo option dum-dum.

Right, but that proves nothing. All that proves is we have infrastructure. :D If we removed every other 50 ft. of road from America we'd starve. If we removed our information networks there'd be mass insanity.

130 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:12:30pm

re: #125 reine.de.tout

Isn't Yucca exactly like a mine? I mean, It's underground and deep. Wouldn't the 20 years this project went on actually support the mining industry?

131 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:12:38pm

re: #114 Cato the Elder


rodan has a little crushy crush on you and ludwig i think by the way

132 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:13:12pm

re: #120 WindUpBird

Assertions are not evidence, and advancements in one field of science are not proof that advancements cannot be made, or have kept pace, in another field of science

This is really dumb un-logic here

Um, My point was that our technology has advanced so far, most of mankind past would never believe it. If there was another viable, natural alternative, we would have it by now.

133 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:13:31pm

re: #106 WindUpBird

At what point did we have the will to land on the moon?

At what point did we land on the moon?

9 years before we did it....and yep..7/20/1969...bad news? The Cold War "made" us do it.

But think: We got powerful, small computers all over now, among other major developments that cut across so many aspects of our modern lives.

134 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:13:45pm

re: #125 reine.de.tout

Never underestimate the power of NIMBY

The USA's state system is one of the biggest obstacles to the efficient governing of our country. fifty little NIMBY tribes, fifty different states that want pork, fifty entities vying for influence

135 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:13:51pm

re: #130 Amory Blaine

Isn't Yucca exactly like a mine? I mean, It's underground and deep. Wouldn't the 20 years this project went on actually support the mining industry?

I'm not sure.

136 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:14:22pm

re: #134 WindUpBird

Never underestimate the power of NIMBY

The USA's state system is one of the biggest obstacles to the efficient governing of our country. fifty little NIMBY tribes, fifty different states that want pork, fifty entities vying for influence

What would you prefer as an alternative?

137 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:15:12pm

re: #127 CapeCoddah

Think of the Rain forests, Cato. We have ravaged those also. What will THAT do to the environment? How do we harvest all that rubber? Oil.

Forests, correctly managed, are a renewable resource.

I basically agree we're fucked, I just don't think we should glory in it.

138 windsagio  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:15:19pm

re: #132 CapeCoddah

Um, My point was that our technology has advanced so far, most of mankind past would never believe it. If there was another viable, natural alternative, we would have it by now.

Problem is that comapnies are cheap, and governments are poor, so nobody's willing to invest in the changes we have available.

Because you're right to a point, we have the alternatives now, just we won't bite the bullet to adopt.

139 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:15:21pm

re: #129 WindUpBird

If we removed our information networks there'd be mass insanity.

We're not already there some days?

140 Kragar  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:15:30pm

re: #136 reine.de.tout

What would you prefer as an alternative?

A benevolent dictatorship, governed by me.

141 albusteve  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:15:31pm

re: #134 WindUpBird

Never underestimate the power of NIMBY

The USA's state system is one of the biggest obstacles to the efficient governing of our country. fifty little NIMBY tribes, fifty different states that want pork, fifty entities vying for influence

Yucca Mt is federal land, not Nevada state

142 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:15:36pm

re: #131 SpaceJesus

rodan has a little crushy crush on you and ludwig i think by the way

This is me not giving a damn.

143 filetandrelease  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:16:06pm

re: #106 WindUpBird

At what point did we have the will to land on the moon?

At what point did we land on the moon?


I wish we did have the will, like France or Japan, but our political class doesn't. We need hundreds on nuclear power plants? How many are currently under contruction?

144 ryannon  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:16:40pm

re: #136 reine.de.tout

What would you prefer as an alternative?

Send it to Russia, like France does with their reprocessed plutonium.

Or Mexico! It's closer.

145 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:16:48pm

re: #134 WindUpBird

Never underestimate the power of NIMBY

The USA's state system is one of the biggest obstacles to the efficient governing of our country. fifty little NIMBY tribes, fifty different states that want pork, fifty entities vying for influence

hundreds of thousand municipalities and many more HOAs and Condo Associations...can't forget those in the who gets a say about the "neighborhood squabbles.

146 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:17:06pm

re: #132 CapeCoddah

Um, My point was that our technology has advanced so far, most of mankind past would never believe it. If there was another viable, natural alternative, we would have it by now.

you have demonstrated absolutely no evidence to support this, it's not true

The reason we don't have a pervasive natural alternative is because we haven't needed it. We still have cheap oil. We still have the influence and the military might t o secure cheap oil. And if we don't need that alternative energy source, nobody's going to invest the trillions to develop it. Why spend trillions on an unnecessary thing? Path of least resistance. This is grade school stuff. This is really simple.

When the oil starts to run dry, we will miraculously find that alternative viable energy source, don't even worry about it

147 windsagio  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:17:15pm

re: #141 albusteve

Doesn't seem to matter much does it?

148 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:17:27pm

re: #115 CapeCoddah

Uh, we have rovers on Mars. Serious technology. With all we have accomplished, no other sustainable source of power, to equal what oil accomplishes has ever been found. Oil IS the magic energy bullet provided for us by the Earth.

That is completely lunacy. Are you serious?

You don't find other energy sources. You develop them. As we are doing.

Oil is not a magic bullet. It's a deal with the devil.

149 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:17:52pm

re: #136 reine.de.tout

What would you prefer as an alternative?

Less power to states.

150 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:18:00pm

re: #145 Curt

hundreds of thousand municipalities and many more HOAs and Condo Associations...can't forget those in the who gets a say about the "neighborhood squabbles.

Funny. Under any circumstance, you can't get 5 people to agree on what to eat for dinner much less anything else.

151 The Curmudgeon  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:18:03pm

re: #114 Cato the Elder

I pick your nose.

In addition to that nice down-ding? How grand!

152 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:18:34pm

re: #141 albusteve

Yucca Mt is federal land, not Nevada state

But Reid is a representative of Nevada, not a representative of the federal government.

153 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:19:02pm

re: #149 WindUpBird

Less power to states.

What sorts of power would you remove from the states?
And what would you leave in place?

154 windsagio  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:19:11pm

re: #146 WindUpBird

Again, we essentially have the alternatives now; the problem is building infastructure, etc. And overcoming nimby of course.

155 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:19:14pm

re: #139 Curt

We're not already there some days?

No, I mean all of it. Every banking computer. Every record of debt.

156 filetandrelease  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:19:38pm

re: #148 Obdicut

That is completely lunacy. Are you serious?

You don't find other energy sources. You develop them. As we are doing.

Oil is not a magic bullet. It's a deal with the devil.

Very good. What would you call nuclear energy?

157 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:19:48pm

re: #153 reine.de.tout

What sorts of power would you remove from the states?
And what would you leave in place?

Do you have...oh, about a week for me to tell you? :D

158 calochortus  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:19:53pm

re: #124 Curt

A real problem is getting the same energy output. The chemical energy in petroleum is way up there, compared to other sources, particularly considering the developed infrastructure.

To go to hydrogen, for example, for vehicles, would take putting an entire new system in place. May be local generating units (would need energy to operate), or a distribution network (would need energy to transport to end use points).

Just because I'm picky-you do realize that hydrogen fuel is a way of storing and transporting energy, not creating it, don't you? You get the hydrogen by putting in energy and breaking H2O apart, then when it recombines, it releases energy. Now the energy used to break up the H2O can come from anything, and it is certainly an alternative to oil for vehicles, but I'm not sure that, say, coal, or with current extraction methods natural gas is much of an improvement.

159 albusteve  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:20:54pm

re: #152 WindUpBird

But Reid is a representative of Nevada, not a representative of the federal government.

fuck Reid...he cannot force the DOE to break their storage contracts...the whole YM thing is political whoring

160 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:21:05pm

re: #156 filetandrelease

Very good. What would you call nuclear energy?

Another non-renewable source that is a very good stopgap.

161 brookly red  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:21:13pm

re: #156 filetandrelease

Very good. What would you call nuclear energy?

I like hydro (I live by a river) no downside at all to hydro...

162 researchok  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:21:34pm

re: #148 Obdicut

That is completely lunacy. Are you serious?

You don't find other energy sources. You develop them. As we are doing.

Oil is not a magic bullet. It's a deal with the devil.

It's not so simple, though I would say we have become huge energy wasters.

Oil and fossil fuels/elements have spurred everything from evolution to technology. That includes health care and other advances that make our lives possible.

163 windsagio  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:21:50pm

re: #161 brookly red

no offense but,

ahhahhaahhahahaa *gasp* hahahahahahaha


I hope you're joking :D

164 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:22:12pm

Any Engineers on the Board?
I need to google the specs on the containment vessel...IIRC.. At a mile under the water the only steel strong enough for those Pressures would be Hy-80.
You know they have to preheat that metal for 24 hours before you can even make a weld...

165 filetandrelease  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:22:20pm

re: #160 Obdicut
Not a deal with devil so to speak? After all it does have its dangers.

166 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:22:47pm

re: #157 WindUpBird

Do you have...oh, about a week for me to tell you? :D

Sure!

167 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:23:00pm

re: #162 researchok

I agree. We probably waste half the energy we consume.

168 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:23:09pm

re: #155 WindUpBird

No, I mean all of it. Every banking computer. Every record of debt.

I was commenting on the mass insanity part....

169 brookly red  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:23:10pm

re: #163 windsagio

no offense but,

ahhahhaahhahahaa *gasp* hahahahahahaha

I hope you're joking :D

I doubt that my version of hydro is the same as yours ;)

170 McSpiff  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:23:47pm

re: #161 brookly red

I like hydro (I live by a river) no downside at all to hydro...

Heh you want the list? Everything from increasing malaria rates in some places of the world (due to increased standing water) disrupting ice flows, disrupting fish mating, disrupting animal migration.

There is no method of electricity production without downsides. Its impossible. We just need to use options that minimize the damage for the given location.

171 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:24:03pm

re: #156 filetandrelease

Very good. What would you call nuclear energy?

Efficient and way cleaner than the current "alternatives."

172 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:24:03pm

re: #162 researchok

But that means there's a lot of low-hanging fruit to pick in terms of becoming less wasteful. We haven't committed much to that effort yet.

173 researchok  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:24:10pm

re: #167 Amory Blaine

I agree. We probably waste half the energy we consume.

At least half!

174 filetandrelease  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:24:29pm

re: #161 brookly red turbines in the gulf stream?

175 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:24:40pm

re: #161 brookly red

I like hydro (I live by a river) no downside at all to hydro...

Actually there are some ecological downsides - disruption of sedimentation, disruption of migration, changes in habitat due to temperature changes in the water both up & downstream from the dam, loss of fish from going through turbines, etc. It's just that we have chosen to see them as insignificant.

176 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:24:53pm

re: #171 Curt

Efficient and way cleaner than the current "alternatives."

It's not cleaner than a large number of alternatives, no, especially when you consider construction costs.

177 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:25:14pm

re: #132 CapeCoddah

Um, My point was that our technology has advanced so far, most of mankind past would never believe it. If there was another viable, natural alternative, we would have it by now.

You're ignoring inertia. The oil industry has a lot of money and institutional political inertia behind it, cf Citizen's United v Federal Elections Commission.

Nuclear, wind and solar are absolutely viable, and distributed nets are inherently more secure vs. terrorism. But these technologies threaten the status quo, and a lot of time, money and effort is spent clearing away all perceived roadblocks to quarterly profits.

The idea that "we'd have it by now" seems based on a faith in human decency, efficiency, and group intelligence that I'm afraid to say does not exist.

178 windsagio  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:25:20pm

re: #169 brookly red

Just... if you could hear all the complaining and see all the handwringing we have over here about the dams, you'd be shocked.

They're actually thinking about breaching some of htem now.

179 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:25:26pm

re: #132 CapeCoddah

Um, My point was that our technology has advanced so far, most of mankind past would never believe it. If there was another viable, natural alternative, we would have it by now.

Yes, because massive infrastructural changes just implement themselves without any larger institutional push.

THE INVISIBLE HAND WILL SAVE US ALL

180 researchok  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:25:41pm

re: #172 Obdicut

But that means there's a lot of low-hanging fruit to pick in terms of becoming less wasteful. We haven't committed much to that effort yet.

I couldn't agree more.

Still, the responsible use of fossil fuels can yield enormous benefits.

181 calochortus  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:25:43pm

re: #173 researchok

At least half!

But, but its our God-given right to waste things! /

182 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:26:15pm

re: #158 calochortus

Just because I'm picky-you do realize that hydrogen fuel is a way of storing and transporting energy, not creating it, don't you? You get the hydrogen by putting in energy and breaking H2O apart, then when it recombines, it releases energy. Now the energy used to break up the H2O can come from anything, and it is certainly an alternative to oil for vehicles, but I'm not sure that, say, coal, or with current extraction methods natural gas is much of an improvement.

Yep...I was trying to make the point the energy to use it comes from somewhere, and it will need a distribution methodology to get it into the useful state. Try as we may, we can't get energy from no expenditure of energy of some form.

183 brookly red  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:26:18pm

re: #175 wlewisiii

Actually there are some ecological downsides - disruption of sedimentation, disruption of migration, changes in habitat due to temperature changes in the water both up & downstream from the dam, loss of fish from going through turbines, etc. It's just that we have chosen to see them as insignificant.

you don't need a dam, just a paddle wheel. granted it only works where there is water.

184 calochortus  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:26:41pm

re: #182 Curt

Very true.

185 McSpiff  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:27:25pm

re: #183 brookly red

you don't need a dam, just a paddle wheel. granted it only works where there is water.

How many hand cranks does it take to post on LGF? ;-)

186 windsagio  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:27:41pm

re: #180 researchok

We're gonna need alot for non-energy uses, that's the problem. Still haven't figured out good replacemnts for those uses.

Energy we can do now, if we have the will.

187 TampaKnight  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:28:07pm

It's 5:30 and I'm 2 beers deep.

My job caused me to do it. Don't judge!

188 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:28:14pm

re: #182 Curt

Yep...I was trying to make the point the energy to use it comes from somewhere, and it will need a distribution methodology to get it into the useful state. Try as we may, we can't get energy from no expenditure of energy of some form.

Absolutely correct. Luckily, all methods of energy generation ultimately derive from nuclear fusion in stars. It's all solar energy, in the end.

189 RadicalModerate  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:28:24pm

re: #158 calochortus

Just because I'm picky-you do realize that hydrogen fuel is a way of storing and transporting energy, not creating it, don't you? You get the hydrogen by putting in energy and breaking H2O apart, then when it recombines, it releases energy. Now the energy used to break up the H2O can come from anything, and it is certainly an alternative to oil for vehicles, but I'm not sure that, say, coal, or with current extraction methods natural gas is much of an improvement.

One of the big advantages to hydrogen fuel generation is that it isn't necessary to burn fossil fuels to create it - solar energy works extremely well for this purpose. We're still way behind the curve on solar energy generation (well below 50% even in best-case lab conditions), but solar generation is less resource-intensive than the other options.

190 filetandrelease  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:28:26pm

re: #176 Obdicut

It's not cleaner than a large number of alternatives, no, especially when you consider construction costs.

With current technology, what would you consider an alternative that can be contructed and produce the amount of energy a nuclear reator can?

191 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:28:29pm

re: #183 brookly red

you don't need a dam, just a paddle wheel. granted it only works where there is water.

You still need to provide a head in order to get any significant potential energy. I am unaware of any wheel that can do significant work with only current flow and not some additional head on the water supply.

192 brookly red  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:28:53pm

re: #185 McSpiff

How many hand cranks does it take to post on LGF? ;-)

I will let that slide cause I like you :)

193 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:28:54pm

re: #185 McSpiff

How many hand cranks does it take to post on LGF? ;-)

Or a hamster wheel.

194 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:29:11pm

re: #138 windsagio

Problem is that comapnies are cheap, and governments are poor, so nobody's willing to invest in the changes we have available.

Because you're right to a point, we have the alternatives now, just we won't bite the bullet to adopt.

Windy, What alternatives do we have, that would keep life as we know it going?
Wind is not an option... They will not even be honest with the Attny. General here about the cost of the proposed nightmare getting ready to be built in Nantucket Sound.

My electric rates will go up from 5. something cents Per KWH
to 22. some cents Per KWH for the first year, then rise 3% every year for 15 years under the deal cut between Cape Wind and National Grid to buy half the power. The kicker?? National Grid does not supply electricity to Cape Cod. So, we pay Billions,
and get nothing from it.
It was sold to us under the guise of LOWERING our electric rates, but, they refused to release the numbers until after the fed approved the project.
Now, National grid tries to tell us that going from 5cents per KW to over 20cents per KW will cost us about 2 bucks a month. Nice math. Apparently us boobs cannot figure out that quadrupling the cost of power per KW will quadruple our monthly bill. Our bill is around $90 per month. It will go up to $360 a month for the same usage.
Your text to link...

195 researchok  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:29:25pm

re: #186 windsagio

We're gonna need alot for non-energy uses, that's the problem. Still haven't figured out good replacemnts for those uses.

Energy we can do now, if we have the will.

And therein lies the crux of the issue.

Oil and fossil fuels cannot and will not be so easily replaced. It will take a combination of solutions to address the issue.

196 abolitionist  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:30:04pm

Hydrogen Can Be Produced from Zinc Using Solar Power

Published: September 14, 2005
Jerusalem, Israel [RenewableEnergyAccess.com] Using concentrated solar energy, an international team of scientists from Israel, Sweden, Switzerland and France have discovered a clean, safe and inexpensive way to produce hydrogen. The key is using solar energy as the energy source in the production of zinc from zinc oxide.

This is a really nifty way to sidestep the hydrogen storage problem.

197 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:30:34pm

re: #148 Obdicut

That is completely lunacy. Are you serious?

You don't find other energy sources. You develop them. As we are doing.

Oil is not a magic bullet. It's a deal with the devil.

I am dead serious. I do not live in LaLa land. I exist in harsh reality.
Utopia cannot be legislated.

198 ryannon  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:31:09pm

re: #176 Obdicut

It's not cleaner than a large number of alternatives, no, especially when you consider construction costs.

And no one has ever figured out how to dismantle one.

If only there was a less expensive, safer and faster to construct technology - but shit, that would take paying attention for ten whole minutes.

199 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:31:25pm

re: #187 TampaKnight

It's 5:30 and I'm 2 beers deep.

My job caused me to do it. Don't judge!

I was horrified to find out the other day that Oklahoma is a 3.2% beer State..
I'm plotting the pirating of a Bud Light Semi down in Texas...What do you think?
/

200 TampaKnight  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:31:27pm

I'm offering on a house here in Florida that is newly built and certified "energy efficient", so I'm getting a nice tax break every year.

I also work 2.5 miles from this house, and my gym is 1.2 miles away.

Go Green Me!

201 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:31:32pm

re: #95 reine.de.tout

No.
No permits are being issued.
Business as usual is NOT going on.

Good.

202 windsagio  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:31:42pm

re: #194 CapeCoddah

A combination of sources, realloy.

Wind, home solar, some hydro (my laughing above aside about OR/WA's prolems we can do it right), tidal generaters, nuclear plants where we need them, general solar plants out in the desert, etc etc.

No one solution will replace oil, luckily we have a number of options.

The thing is we need to start working on it NOW.

203 TampaKnight  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:31:51pm

re: #199 HoosierHoops

I was horrified to find out the other day that Oklahoma is a 3.2% beer State..
I'm plotting the pirating of a Bud Light Semi down in Texas...What do you think?
/

WAIT.

Meaning they can't serve beer past 3.2% alc?

204 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:31:57pm

re: #197 CapeCoddah

I am dead serious. I do not live in LaLa land. I exist in harsh reality.
Utopia cannot be legislated.

Utopia doesn't exist, and nobody is saying it could. Nobody here anyway.

But we can legislate ways to avoid creating our own dystopia.

205 calochortus  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:32:00pm

re: #189 RadicalModerate

Quite so, but we have nowhere near enough solar generating capacity at this point. Too expensive. Bring on the cheap oil...or something. I was speaking of what we can do now.

206 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:32:37pm

re: #148 Obdicut

That is completely lunacy. Are you serious?

You don't find other energy sources. You develop them. As we are doing.

Oil is not a magic bullet. It's a deal with the devil.

What are we developing? Other than Nuclear, for electricity?

207 ryannon  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:32:43pm

re: #190 filetandrelease

With current technology, what would you consider an alternative that can be contructed and produce the amount of energy a nuclear reator can?

Ignore this:

208 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:32:58pm

re: #200 TampaKnight

Please be careful. ALot of the new homes down there have that contaminated drywall in it.

209 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:33:14pm

re: #203 TampaKnight

WAIT.

Meaning they can't serve beer past 3.2% alc?

YES! Doesn't that suck?

210 TampaKnight  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:33:29pm

re: #208 Amory Blaine

Please be careful. ALot of the new homes down there have that contaminated drywall in it.

Chinese drywall? Yea, I know...I'm having an inspection just for that shit.

211 TampaKnight  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:34:16pm

re: #209 HoosierHoops

YES! Doesn't that suck?

That's awful. I couldn't drink a single beer there- I'm drinking an IPA that has 9.2% alc.

You get only watered down piss beer....that sucks.

212 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:34:20pm

re: #176 Obdicut

It's not cleaner than a large number of alternatives, no, especially when you consider construction costs.

When the sun isn't out and your lights aren't burning...it's about being functional.

Short of the perpetual motion system, and banning entropy, we have to live in the physical world. Short of telling people they must necessarily cut their energy use to the bone, are you aware that solar cells are only getting more efficient by the addition of some rare earth metals that are being mixed, of which they seem to only have very small deposits found all over the world, and most of those are in....wait for it! CHINA! Small technical detail...and I've read they are considering limiting the exports, so they have enough for their use, to heck with the rest of us. So, we could have better solar...for a while, then we'd be back to silicon based alone stuff, and less output.

And, the commitment (per another of your comments above) is not forth coming because of the money. Try to convince an entire country to forego their money, to be taxed highly, in order to develop those alternative methods, while the much lest costly one is right there. That's a problem, like it or not. When the cost gets high enough, as someone else said, then the ways will appear.

213 filetandrelease  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:34:47pm

re: #205 calochortus

Quite so, but we have nowhere near enough solar generating capacity at this point. Too expensive. Bring on the cheap oil...or something. I was speaking of what we can do now.

I sound like a broken record, sorry, but it seems now we can build nuclear, it has proven safe and is the most effcient alternative on the market ATM. Hell we power sub and air craft carriers with it, I want my car powered with it! (seriously, an electric car, not yet, but soon I hope)

214 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:34:55pm

re: #98 teleskiguy

I've read in history books that at certain times during the colonial period of this continent's history in certain parts it was against the law to not grow hemp. The people back then knew it was a fabulous way to become economically independent from their colonial overlords.


It was required for sealing ships (and sailing wax?). They pounded it into the gaps and coated it with tar, so it was a necessary security item. The military industrial complex started early!

215 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:35:04pm

We can bicker back and forth about oil all day long, but the fact remains that it is a finite resource. It's going to run out in the end.

216 brookly red  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:35:06pm

re: #199 HoosierHoops

I was horrified to find out the other day that Oklahoma is a 3.2% beer State..
I'm plotting the pirating of a Bud Light Semi down in Texas...What do you think?
/

move?

217 filetandrelease  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:38:06pm

re: #207 ryannon
Magic bullet? I am not familiar with thorium(sp)

218 Kragar  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:38:48pm

Oh what the hell, they announce a company picnic at the last minute and people are getting all pissy about trying to shirk off work to attend.

219 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:39:57pm

re: #216 brookly red

move?

They are sending me there...It would appear unless I pack some beer with me in the truck, I'll be posting here next Saturday night from Oklahoma drinking 3.2 beer..There ought to be a law...Wait ..there is..
What kind of Cowboy drinks 3.2 beer? I'm very disappointed..
/

220 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:40:33pm

re: #208 Amory Blaine

Please be careful. ALot of the new homes down there have that contaminated drywall in it.

Actually one of my clients has hydroxyl units that can actually clear up that Chinese drywall contamination problem. The cleansing effect penetrates about 1/2", if I recall correctly, into the product. Far superior anti-bacterial to ozone, and not toxic to humans in large quantities.

221 ryannon  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:40:38pm

re: #217 filetandrelease

Magic bullet? I am not familiar with thorium(sp)

Click on the video and tell me what's not to like.

222 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:40:52pm

re: #219 HoosierHoops

They are sending me there...It would appear unless I pack some beer with me in the truck trunk, I'll be posting here next Saturday night from Oklahoma drinking 3.2 beer..There ought to be a law...Wait ..there is..
What kind of Cowboy drinks 3.2 beer? I'm very disappointed..
/


PIMF

223 calochortus  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:41:02pm

re: #213 filetandrelease

I sound like a broken record, sorry, but it seems now we can build nuclear, it has proven safe and is the most effcient alternative on the market ATM. Hell we power sub and air craft carriers with it, I want my car powered with it! (seriously, an electric car, not yet, but soon I hope)

We can build nuclear reactors but the waste is a huge issue. I'm not hysterical about it, but it seems to me that anything that stays 'hot' for 10,000 years is something we need to give some really serious thought to before we create a bunch of it. Given our history of next quarter's profits, planning water use based on 25-50 supply being considered reasonable, and so forth I'm not sure we have the disposal issue under control.

224 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:41:02pm

re: #212 Curt

When the sun isn't out and your lights aren't burning...it's about being functional.

Short of the perpetual motion system, and banning entropy, we have to live in the physical world. Short of telling people they must necessarily cut their energy use to the bone, are you aware that solar cells are only getting more efficient by the addition of some rare earth metals that are being mixed, of which they seem to only have very small deposits found all over the world, and most of those are in...wait for it! CHINA! Small technical detail...and I've read they are considering limiting the exports, so they have enough for their use, to heck with the rest of us. So, we could have better solar...for a while, then we'd be back to silicon based alone stuff, and less output.

And, the commitment (per another of your comments above) is not forth coming because of the money. Try to convince an entire country to forego their money, to be taxed highly, in order to develop those alternative methods, while the much lest costly one is right there. That's a problem, like it or not. When the cost gets high enough, as someone else said, then the ways will appear.

The money is an inconvenience. The fact that carbon emissions are producing environmental devastation, and demand for oil generates endless political turmoil and wars means that we must do the inconvenient, so we can avoid the truly devastating.

I'll take the mid term economic hit over the long term environmental one, any day.

225 brookly red  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:41:14pm

re: #219 HoosierHoops

They are sending me there...It would appear unless I pack some beer with me in the truck, I'll be posting here next Saturday night from Oklahoma drinking 3.2 beer..There ought to be a law...Wait ..there is..
What kind of Cowboy drinks 3.2 beer? I'm very disappointed..
/

how far are you from the state line?

226 filetandrelease  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:41:16pm

re: #221 ryannon

I did, and can't find a thing.

227 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:42:36pm

re: #202 windsagio

A combination of sources, realloy.

Wind, home solar, some hydro (my laughing above aside about OR/WA's prolems we can do it right), tidal generaters, nuclear plants where we need them, general solar plants out in the desert, etc etc.

No one solution will replace oil, luckily we have a number of options.

The thing is we need to start working on it NOW.

If it was viable, it would already be done. What a beautiful world that scenario makes...We would not have room to move for all the "Energy producers" out there. That will be wonderful for nature, wildlife, etc...A windmill in every yard. Then we can tell our grandkids that we had birds once upon a time..

228 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:43:29pm

re: #204 Fozzie Bear

Utopia doesn't exist, and nobody is saying it could. Nobody here anyway.

But we can legislate ways to avoid creating our own dystopia.

No, we cannot.

229 njdhockeyfan  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:43:33pm

Anyone from the Oakland area?

Suffer These Crimes in Oakland? Don't Call the Cops

Oakland's police chief is making some dire claims about what his force will and will not respond to if layoffs go as planned.

Chief Anthony Batts listed exactly 44 situations that his officers will no longer respond to and they include grand theft, burglary, car wrecks, identity theft and vandalism. He says if you live and Oakland and one of the above happens to you, you need to let police know on-line.

Some 80 officers were to be let go at midnight last night if a last-minute deal was not reached. That's about ten percent of the work force.

...Here's a partial list:

* burglary
* theft
* embezzlement
* grand theft
* grand theft:dog
* identity theft
* false information to peace officer
* required to register as sex or arson offender
* dump waste or offensive matter
* discard appliance with lock
* loud music
* possess forged notes
* pass fictitious check
* obtain money by false voucher
* fraudulent use of access cards
* stolen license plate
* embezzlement by an employee (over $ 400)
* extortion
* attempted extortion
* false personification of other
* injure telephone/ power line
* interfere with power line
* unauthorized cable tv connection
* vandalism
* administer/expose poison to another's

Negotiations are going on at Oakland City Hall in the mayor's office.

Yikes!

230 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:43:38pm

re: #224 Fozzie Bear

The money is an inconvenience. The fact that carbon emissions are producing environmental devastation, and demand for oil generates endless political turmoil and wars means that we must do the inconvenient, so we can avoid the truly devastating.

I'll take the mid term economic hit over the long term environmental one, any day.

You, and I and several others here may commit to that, but I'm guessing not enough would come along for that ride. If they were now...we'd not be discussing any of this, to include the actual topic of this main post...

231 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:43:41pm

re: #225 brookly red

how far are you from the state line?

About 200 miles...Sucks...Guess I'll go back to drinking wine...Probably can't even find Napa Valley wine there....

232 albusteve  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:43:46pm

re: #207 ryannon

Ignore this:


[Video]

I watched it...pretty convincing

233 ryannon  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:44:29pm

re: #226 filetandrelease

I did, and can't find a thing.

Holy crap! Must be a Commie plot!

That's the damned thing. And no one at that conference had any particular vested economic interest in promoting LIFTr reactors. Whereas Areva (the much-lauded French consortium) constantly distorts facts while the French government (which stands to make hundreds of billions off Areva) has one of the most efficient lobbies in the world, equal, in all likelihood, to that of Big Oil.

234 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:44:52pm

re: #204 Fozzie Bear

Utopia doesn't exist, and nobody is saying it could. Nobody here anyway.

But we can legislate ways to avoid creating our own dystopia.

re: #228 CapeCoddah

No, we cannot.

Well, then I guess we should do away with all those pesky laws. They aren't doing us any good anyway. I'm sure things will get better when rape is legal.

235 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:45:06pm

re: #227 CapeCoddah

If it was viable, it would already be done.

What a stupid thing to say.

.A windmill in every yard. Then we can tell our grandkids that we had birds once upon a time.

Something like 5,000 times more birds are killed by pet cats than by windmills. We still have birds. (My cats stay in the house.)

236 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:45:17pm

re: #214 wrenchwench

It was required for sealing ships (and sailing wax?). They pounded it into the gaps and coated it with tar, so it was a necessary security item. The military industrial complex started early!

Tar is oil.

237 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:45:36pm

re: #236 CapeCoddah

Tar is oil.

So what?

238 TampaKnight  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:45:59pm

I've looked at windmill technology for my work, and it's nowhere near being ready to provide energy to a significant percentage of this nation anytime soon.

239 ryannon  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:46:10pm

re: #232 albusteve

I watched it...pretty convincing

I'm glad to hear you say it - and coming from you, it carries weight.

240 brookly red  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:46:22pm

re: #231 HoosierHoops

About 200 miles...Sucks...Guess I'll go back to drinking wine...Probably can't even find Napa Valley wine there...

home brewing kits:
[Link: www.google.com...]

241 calochortus  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:46:29pm

re: #235 wrenchwench

Something like 5,000 times more birds are killed by pet cats than by windmills. We still have birds. (My cats stay in the house.)

And windows.

242 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:46:29pm

re: #190 filetandrelease

With current technology, what would you consider an alternative that can be contructed and produce the amount of energy a nuclear reator can?

That's a weird question. Any alternative source can produce the same amount of energy a nuclear reactor can; it just depends on the size of each.

What are you actually asking?

243 njdhockeyfan  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:46:48pm

Gov. Paterson turns to higher power by wearing red string kabbalah bracelet to ward off evil

Gov. Paterson is counting on a Madonna-blessed higher power to lead him out of the mess in Albany.

The lame-duck governor has begun wearing a red string kabbalah bracelet - just like the Material Girl - in an eyebrow-raising bid to deflect ill will.

"It was explained to the governor that the red string is a symbol of protection [that] wards off problems and tribulations," Paterson spokesman Morgan Hook said.

"His attitude was that he'll take all the help he can get."

Paterson could be forgiven for turning to a little divine protection.

In the past six months he's found himself under investigation, dumped his reelection bid as a result, and wrestled with the Legislature over the state budget.

So he's apparently trying his luck with the trendy talisman favored by followers of the mystical Jewish discipline. But unlike Madonna, Demi Moore and Britney Spears, Paterson is not yet one of the devoted, a spokesman said.

"Kabbalah didn't change his life, just to be clear here," Hook said.

244 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:47:10pm

re: #238 TampaKnight

I've looked at windmill technology for my work, and it's nowhere near being ready to provide energy to a significant percentage of this nation anytime soon.

Nobody has asserted it could do the job.

However, any plan based on one source of energy is every bit as dumb as the current plan.

245 b_Snark  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:47:20pm

re: #235 wrenchwench

Something like 5,000 times more birds are killed by pet cats than by windmills. We still have birds. (My cats stay in the house.)

We can also 'grill' housetop windmills so birds aren't hurt.

246 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:47:40pm

re: #224 Fozzie Bear

The money is an inconvenience. The fact that carbon emissions are producing environmental devastation, and demand for oil generates endless political turmoil and wars means that we must do the inconvenient, so we can avoid the truly devastating.

I'll take the mid term economic hit over the long term environmental one, any day.

Money is an inconvenience, when you have it. How much are we supposed to pay? Oh, thats right, Obama will feed, house and clothe us all. Legislating Utopia. Epic fail.

247 ryannon  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:47:45pm

re: #238 TampaKnight

I've looked at windmill technology for my work, and it's nowhere near being ready to provide energy to a significant percentage of this nation anytime soon.

Twenty percent is feasible, and as soon as they can get them up.

248 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:48:13pm

re: #241 calochortus

And windows.

Maybe you saw the same article I did. It was here at LGF, sometime, somewhere...

249 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:48:44pm

re: #246 CapeCoddah

Money is an inconvenience, when you have it. How much are we supposed to pay? Oh, thats right, Obama will feed, house and clothe us all. Legislating Utopia. Epic fail.

He will???

250 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:48:49pm

re: #246 CapeCoddah

Money is an inconvenience, when you have it. How much are we supposed to pay? Oh, thats right, Obama will feed, house and clothe us all. Legislating Utopia. Epic fail.

That's one hell of a straw man you have there.

251 ryannon  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:48:57pm

re: #235 wrenchwench

Something like 5,000 times more birds are killed by pet cats than by windmills. We still have birds. (My cats stay in the house.)

And what about the people with flying cats? Ever think of that?

Of course not.

252 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:49:25pm

re: #234 Fozzie Bear

Well, then I guess we should do away with all those pesky laws. They aren't doing us any good anyway. I'm sure things will get better when rape is legal.

Putz

253 webevintage  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:49:41pm

re: #251 ryannon

And what about the people with flying cats? Ever think of that?

Of course not.

I wish my cats could fly...and laser beam eyes...

254 ryannon  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:49:47pm

re: #242 Obdicut

That's a weird question. Any alternative source can produce the same amount of energy a nuclear reactor can; it just depends on the size of each.

What are you actually asking?

GIANT HAMSTER WHEELS!

255 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:50:22pm

re: #209 HoosierHoops

YES! Doesn't that suck?

Like having sex in a canoe.

256 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:50:35pm

re: #252 CapeCoddah

Putz

If you are going to make absurd claims like the ones you have made, I will illustrate their absurdity through example. If you don't like it, don't read my posts.

257 calochortus  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:50:38pm

re: #248 wrenchwench

Maybe you saw the same article I did. It was here at LGF, sometime, somewhere...

Actually, I've spent a lot of time online trying to find a solution for a large window that I want to be able to see out of (nice view) but because of a sliding glass door on the wall opposite, birds think they can fly right through. Our current solution is mini blinds. I hate them. But I hate dead birds more...

258 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:50:48pm

re: #235 wrenchwench

Something like 5,000 times more birds are killed by pet cats than by windmills. We still have birds. (My cats stay in the house.)

Of course, and a windmill every few hundred feet will not affect that number at all//

259 filetandrelease  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:51:00pm

re: #238 TampaKnight

I've looked at windmill technology for my work, and it's nowhere near being ready to provide energy to a significant percentage of this nation anytime soon.


I investigated opening a business selling windmills, but couldn't make the model work.

260 webevintage  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:51:01pm

Historically did legislation help spur the types of energy we use now that are harmful but at one time got help from the gov't so that people were willing to change over to them?

261 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:51:16pm

re: #238 TampaKnight

I've looked at windmill technology for my work, and it's nowhere near being ready to provide energy to a significant percentage of this nation anytime soon.

The Netherlands has lots of wind power...As a small country it works well.. Transmission lines don't have to cover large areas like the US. To make it effective I believe each state needs a wind energy program..
Advanced Rugged Solar cells for roofs could supply each home with a clean cheap energy source..
( A Sr. VP for Duke Energy just fainted)

262 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:51:49pm

re: #258 CapeCoddah

Of course, and a windmill every few hundred feet will not affect that number at all//

Find where anyone has suggested on this blog that blanketing the surface of the planet with windmills, and only windmills, will solve the energy crisis.

This cannot be a single-source solution.

263 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:52:08pm

re: #259 filetandrelease

I investigated opening a business selling windmills, but couldn't make the model work.

Couldn't we just lipo all the fat people and burn the fat? It would take care of some health issues as well.

264 webevintage  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:52:39pm

re: #263 Amory Blaine

Couldn't we just lipo all the fat people and burn the fat? It would take care of some health issues as well.

I'd sign up to do my part....

265 b_Snark  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:52:49pm

re: #246 CapeCoddah

Money is an inconvenience, when you have it. How much are we supposed to pay? Oh, thats right, Obama will feed, house and clothe us all. Legislating Utopia. Epic fail.

How about legislating corrections to errors? How about legislating intelligent, practical methods of survival. It has become pretty obvious we aren't about to do it without legislation.

Your claim we are seeking Nirvana on Earth through correcting stupid mistakes is itself a stupid mistake.

266 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:52:58pm

re: #255 Alouette

Like having sex in a canoe.

Which requires a tight rope walker's sense of balance and concentration...or a desire to get really wet.

267 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:53:08pm

re: #250 Fozzie Bear

That's one hell of a straw man you have there.

Putz

268 TampaKnight  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:53:39pm

re: #261 HoosierHoops

The Netherlands has lots of wind power...As a small country it works well.. Transmission lines don't have to cover large areas like the US. To make it effective I believe each state needs a wind energy program..
Advanced Rugged Solar cells for roofs could supply each home with a clean cheap energy source..
( A Sr. VP for Duke Energy just fainted)

The state of Texas, according to the AWEA, has more gW of output in windmill power per year than the top 3 foreign nations in wind power combined. Swear to God.

It's not that we lack the output, it's that it's very variable, the grid is not designed to handle such output, and that the areas that the windmills are being built are in remote, hard to access regions.

269 albusteve  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:53:44pm

re: #256 Fozzie Bear

If you are going to make absurd claims like the ones you have made, I will illustrate their absurdity through example. If you don't like it, don't read my posts.

good grief you can be dense...it wouldn't matter except for the hostility factor

270 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:54:43pm

re: #263 Amory Blaine

Couldn't we just lipo all the fat people and burn the fat? It would take care of some health issues as well.

But that, alas, if harvested efficiently, would run out, unless, or course, NYC drops the laws on transfats...

271 b_Snark  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:54:45pm

re: #250 Fozzie Bear

That's one hell of a straw man you have there.

Fozzie, when you don't have the means to tear down an actual argument, there is no choice but to build a straw version of the argument.

272 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:55:49pm

re: #262 Fozzie Bear

Find where anyone has suggested on this blog that blanketing the surface of the planet with windmills, and only windmills, will solve the energy crisis.

This cannot be a single-source solution.

So, we don't even have ONE viable alternative yet, and you demand how many? Try stepping out into reality for a breath of oxygen now and again.

273 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:56:05pm

re: #267 CapeCoddah

Putz

Does this constitute your attempt to substantiate your argument that pushing for diversifying our energy generation methods is tantamount to thinking that "Obama will feed, house and clothe us all"?

re: #246 CapeCoddah

Money is an inconvenience, when you have it. How much are we supposed to pay? Oh, thats right, Obama will feed, house and clothe us all. Legislating Utopia. Epic fail.

How does that even begin to constitute an argument?

274 b_Snark  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:56:27pm

re: #258 CapeCoddah

Of course, and a windmill every few hundred feet will not affect that number at all//

Are you really that hard of thinking?

275 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:56:43pm

re: #270 Curt

But that, alas, if harvested efficiently, would run out, unless, or course, NYC drops the laws on transfats...

Believe me, around here, there are vast reserves.

276 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:57:14pm

re: #272 CapeCoddah

So, we don't even have ONE viable alternative yet, and you demand how many? Try stepping out into reality for a breath of oxygen now and again.

Are you asserting that we don't have any way to generate energy apart from oil? Not one way?

Are you going to stick by that?

277 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:00:49pm

re: #265 b_sharp

How about legislating corrections to errors? How about legislating intelligent, practical methods of survival. It has become pretty obvious we aren't about to do it without legislation.

Your claim we are seeking Nirvana on Earth through correcting stupid mistakes is itself a stupid mistake.

We breathe air the Earth provides. We eat food the Earth provides. We drink water the Earth provides, we use oil the Earth provides, we use wood, minerals, metals, and many, many other things in nature.
Oil is a substance as natural to the Earth as Air, Water, Produce, Meat, lumber, salt, gold, etc... It is what the Earth provided for us to power ourselves with.

278 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:01:11pm

re: #276 Fozzie Bear

Are you asserting that we don't have any way to generate energy apart from oil? Not one way?

Are you going to stick by that?

Dam, I just can't think of another source...

279 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:01:33pm

re: #275 Amory Blaine

Believe me, around here, there are vast reserves.

Be care where you call "here"...

280 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:02:19pm

re: #277 CapeCoddah

We breathe air the Earth provides. We eat food the Earth provides. We drink water the Earth provides, we use oil the Earth provides, we use wood, minerals, metals, and many, many other things in nature.
Oil is a substance as natural to the Earth as Air, Water, Produce, Meat, lumber, salt, gold, etc... It is what the Earth provided for us to power ourselves with.

Now you are just engaging in magical thinking. THAT is a utopian fantasy.

281 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:02:41pm

In my family tree
I'm the Sap
/

282 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:02:43pm

re: #277 CapeCoddah

It is what the Earth provided for us to power ourselves with.

What religion is that from?

283 webevintage  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:04:11pm

re: #277 CapeCoddah

We breathe air the Earth provides. We eat food the Earth provides. We drink water the Earth provides, we use oil the Earth provides, we use wood, minerals, metals, and many, many other things in nature.
Oil is a substance as natural to the Earth as Air, Water, Produce, Meat, lumber, salt, gold, etc... It is what the Earth provided for us to power ourselves with.

Michelle Bachman is that you?

284 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:04:45pm

re: #271 b_sharp

Fozzie, when you don't have the means to tear down an actual argument, there is no choice but to build a straw version of the argument.

What happens when the wind simply does not blow?
It rains for a week, no sun?
The straw man is arguing to throw away an energy source that powers the planet efficiently and cheaply, in favor of technology, or technologies that do not yet exist. That is the straw man argument.
Common sense apparently has no place in the equation.

285 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:05:06pm

re: #282 wrenchwench

The religion of fact.

286 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:06:42pm

re: #273 Fozzie Bear

How does that even begin to constitute an argument?

No, it simply means I think you are a Putz.

287 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:06:45pm

re: #277 CapeCoddah

We breathe air the Earth provides. We eat food the Earth provides. We drink water the Earth provides, we use oil the Earth provides, we use wood, minerals, metals, and many, many other things in nature.
Oil is a substance as natural to the Earth as Air, Water, Produce, Meat, lumber, salt, gold, etc... It is what the Earth provided for us to power ourselves with.

Hippy dippy Creationism in a new suit, the planet is not a boundless horn of plenty. AGW is real, there are consequences to recklessly disregarding physics forever.

288 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:07:06pm

re: #285 CapeCoddah

The religion of fact.

The earth, excuse me, Earth, was thinking of us when it sequestered all that oil underground? If it liked us, wouldn't it have made it more accessible?

289 webevintage  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:07:21pm

re: #284 CapeCoddah

What happens when the wind simply does not blow?
It rains for a week, no sun?
The straw man is arguing to throw away an energy source that powers the planet efficiently and cheaply, in favor of technology, or technologies that do not yet exist. That is the straw man argument.
Common sense apparently has no place in the equation.

wow you really are a glass half empty kind of gal.....

290 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:07:28pm

re: #284 CapeCoddah

What happens when the wind simply does not blow?
It rains for a week, no sun?

Batteries, hydrogen. Storage. Diversified generation methods diminish this. Smart grids distribute from where the sun is shining, to where it is not. Ramp up nuclear generation during cloudy days. Yes, even some oil.

The straw man is arguing to throw away an energy source that powers the planet efficiently and cheaply, in favor of technology, or technologies that do not yet exist. That is the straw man argument.
Common sense apparently has no place in the equation.

No, the straw man is suggesting that anybody here has suggested that a single source can meet the need, and that the only way to get off of oil is cold turkey. Nobody has suggested that. Nobody but you.

291 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:08:10pm

re: #276 Fozzie Bear

In the amounts needed consistently? Absolutely. If we had them, they would be out there in a big way.

292 ryannon  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:08:37pm

re: #277 CapeCoddah

We breathe air the Earth provides. We eat food the Earth provides. We drink water the Earth provides, we use oil the Earth provides, we use wood, minerals, metals, and many, many other things in nature.
Oil is a substance as natural to the Earth as Air, Water, Produce, Meat, lumber, salt, gold, etc... It is what the Earth provided for us to power ourselves with.

[Link: www.123video.nl...]

Wait fifteen seconds for video to play....

293 webevintage  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:09:47pm

re: #291 CapeCoddah

In the amounts needed consistently? Absolutely. If we had them, they would be out there in a big way.

Like I asked before didn't the technologies we use get a bit of a leg up though legislation?

294 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:10:23pm

re: #280 Fozzie Bear

Now you are just engaging in magical thinking. THAT is a utopian fantasy.

LOL, Care to tell me which part of my statement is untrue?
Specifically?
I am arguing with moron.

295 windsagio  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:10:31pm

re: #286 CapeCoddah

MIght be time to take a break, you're deathspinning here. (just friendly advice)

296 ryannon  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:10:47pm

re: #288 wrenchwench

The earth, excuse me, Earth, was thinking of us when it sequestered all that oil underground? If it liked us, wouldn't it have made it more accessible?

It has.

Just ask BP.

297 windsagio  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:11:10pm

re: #287 goddamnedfrank

Not even a new suit, thats some serious James Watt shit right there.

298 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:11:43pm

I know!

We can burn strawmen!

We seem to have an endless supply.

299 allegro  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:11:52pm

re: #293 webevintage

Like I asked before didn't the technologies we use get a bit of a leg up though legislation?

... a huge tax breaks, shelters, subsidies...

300 windsagio  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:12:19pm

re: #291 CapeCoddah

No it won't!

As long as oil is cheaper than adapting to the already present alternatives, we'll keep using oil regardless of the negative longterm effects.

Humans are lazy and greedy, and this falls under both.

301 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:13:35pm

re: #288 wrenchwench

The earth, excuse me, Earth, was thinking of us when it sequestered all that oil underground? If it liked us, wouldn't it have made it more accessible?

What the Earth provides in the way of natural resources makes possible and sustains all life on Earth. It is really very simple. Care to tell me what other planet we get supplies from?

302 webevintage  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:14:36pm

re: #299 allegro

... a huge tax breaks, shelters, subsidies...

and of course they did, but it would be bad to do those this to help along the new technologies according to CC....

303 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:14:42pm

re: #289 webevintage

wow you really are a glass half empty kind of gal...

LOL, No, simply a realist. Mr. Cape is the glass half full guy.

304 abolitionist  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:15:03pm

re: #277 CapeCoddah

We breathe air the Earth provides. We eat food the Earth provides. We drink water the Earth provides, we use oil the Earth provides, we use wood, minerals, metals, and many, many other things in nature.
Oil is a substance as natural to the Earth as Air, Water, Produce, Meat, lumber, salt, gold, etc... It is what the Earth provided for us to power ourselves with.

Solar-Hydrogen Demonstration Plants

Global Energy Use

When discussing global energy consumption, the unit most often used is the quad[7] (Q= 1015 BTUs[8]). Today, the global energy consumption is between 400 and 450 Q and is rising at a yearly rate of 20 Q. It is expected to reach 600 Q by 2020.. The distribution of the presently used energy sources are: oil (35-37%), coal (25-26%), natural gas (20-25%), wood/biomass (10%), nuclear[9] (7.5%) and renewable sources[10] such as hydroelectric power (2.4%), solar (0.6%), geothermal (0.4%) and wind[11] (0.05%).

Take a look at the graph --the bell-shaped curve. That peak a little before 2050 does not represent "peak oil"; the curve represents all varieties of fossil fuel --oil, coal, natural gas, tar sands, combined. The curve for oil (worldwide) is about now, and narrower.

305 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:15:48pm

re: #290 Fozzie Bear

No, the straw man is suggesting that anybody here has suggested that a single source can meet the need, and that the only way to get off of oil is cold turkey. Nobody has suggested that. Nobody but you.

Do you happen to know anything about the lead smelting process and the pollution created by it for those batteries? Talk about AGW

306 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:16:09pm

re: #294 CapeCoddah

LOL, Care to tell me which part of my statement is untrue?
Specifically?
I am arguing with moron.

In the English language, it is considered correct to either use an indefinite article such as "a" or "an", or use a plural.

Allow me to provide an example:

"You are a moron."

-OR-

"You are morons."

Either is acceptable, grammatically. If you require any further assistance communicating, please, don't be afraid to ask for help.

307 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:17:08pm

re: #298 wrenchwench

I know!

We can burn strawmen!

We seem to have an endless supply.

I'll go with you on this, so long as we are not allowed to identify who's strawman it is, just that it's a strawman and we can use it for the potential energy conversion to kinetic, so we don't need a freakin' human sized hamster to have these arguments...

Deal?

308 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:17:33pm

re: #292 ryannon

Sorry, I never bother with the vids... nothing personal.

309 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:17:36pm

re: #197 CapeCoddah

I am dead serious. I do not live in LaLa land. I exist in harsh reality.
Utopia cannot be legislated.

"Abortion among the black population far outstrips any other demographic. How many brilliant minds have we lost that way?"

Let's make abortion illegal, and get those poverty stricken dystopian blacks off welfare!

Lady, your two faces are showing.

310 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:18:28pm

re: #305 CapeCoddah

Do you happen to know anything about the lead smelting process and the pollution created by it for those batteries? Talk about AGW

Do you happen to know about thin film polymer fuel cells? Do you happen to know about high density carbon nanotube batteries?

Not every technology needs lead.

311 boxhead  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:18:31pm

re: #272 CapeCoddah

So, we don't even have ONE viable alternative yet, and you demand how many? Try stepping out into reality for a breath of oxygen now and again.

I'd build nukes along our coasts and tether desalinization plants to them. Nukes work and we need more water.

We need more research money given to the many methods of energy production that look promising. I keep hearing about some cool "thing", but that is all.

312 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:18:36pm

re: #293 webevintage

Like I asked before didn't the technologies we use get a bit of a leg up though legislation?

No. Politics does nothing but obfuscate and prevent forward progress in those respects.

313 windsagio  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:19:24pm

heh, another Capecoddah deathspin thread. Seems to be about one every 3 months.

314 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:19:45pm

re: #312 CapeCoddah

No. Politics does nothing but obfuscate and prevent forward progress in those respects.

Yep. Private industry got us to the moon, and developed nuclear fission and fusion all by itself.

Oh... wait...

315 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:20:15pm

re: #301 CapeCoddah

What the Earth provides in the way of natural resources makes possible and sustains all life on Earth. It is really very simple. Care to tell me what other planet we get supplies from?

I was not meaning to imply that we get stuff from another planet. I meant the Earth does not have a personality such that it had us in "mind" when it was made, with all its "provisions", as you seem to be saying here:

We breathe air the Earth provides. We eat food the Earth provides. We drink water the Earth provides, we use oil the Earth provides, we use wood, minerals, metals, and many, many other things in nature.
Oil is a substance as natural to the Earth as Air, Water, Produce, Meat, lumber, salt, gold, etc... It is what the Earth provided for us to power ourselves with.
316 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:20:37pm

re: #295 windsagio

MIght be time to take a break, you're deathspinning here. (just friendly advice)

Windy, I am not deathspinning. Why is it you all tell folks they are drowning when you can't beat down the common sense?
I have no need of a break. I simply will not give up my common sense views because it frustrates others. Sorry, my friend.

317 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:21:04pm

re: #307 Curt

Deal?

Hurry up with the matches!

318 windsagio  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:21:42pm
319 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:21:46pm

re: #316 CapeCoddah

Windy, I am not deathspinning. Why is it you all tell folks they are drowning when you can't beat down the common sense?
I have no need of a break. I simply will not give up my common sense views because it frustrates others. Sorry, my friend.

Common sense is a bullshit euphemism for an overly simplistic misunderstanding of complex situations.

Citation: Sarah Palin.

320 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:22:11pm

re: #300 windsagio

No it won't!

As long as oil is cheaper than adapting to the already present alternatives, we'll keep using oil regardless of the negative longterm effects.

Humans are lazy and greedy, and this falls under both.

Of course we will. Because there will always be more people with common sense than without.

321 windsagio  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:22:19pm

re: #316 CapeCoddah

You're insulting people, thats generally a hint that you need a break.

The rest, I won't engage on becasue I can't do it without, in essence, directly insulting you, and I wanna avoid doing that :P

322 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:23:00pm

re: #300 windsagio

No it won't!

As long as oil is cheaper than adapting to the already present alternatives, we'll keep using oil regardless of the negative longterm effects.

Humans are lazy and greedy, and this falls under both.

We have come a long way from the cave. None of us would be happy going back.

323 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:23:37pm

re: #314 Fozzie Bear

Yep. Private industry got us to the moon, and developed nuclear fission and fusion all by itself.

Oh... wait...

I'd suggest a visionary of a President, faced with a growing nuclear power, and a bunch of smart, dedicated people got us to the moon.

The idea/vision was the leader, Congress funded it. I'm sure they earmarked the crap out of it, and got major facilities in their districts (DUH! LBJ, you listening?), but the plan was the Presidents from my best recollection, it was not a Congressional Bill, which, if we had used, I think we all might have to admit, would still be being negotiated.

A "Energy Policy" in the form of Federal Legislation will go the route of the political class, with all the baggae that comes with the process...and the acimony anymore.

324 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:23:40pm

re: #322 CapeCoddah

We have come a long way from the cave. None of us would be happy going back.

And nobody is suggesting that such is the alternative to burning fossil fuels... except you.

325 calochortus  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:24:00pm

re: #301 CapeCoddah

What the Earth provides in the way of natural resources makes possible and sustains all life on Earth. It is really very simple. Care to tell me what other planet we get supplies from?

Yes, the earth supplies all the stuff we have (except solar energy). That certainly doesn't mean we can't use that 'stuff' up and then have none. Ask societies that overused their resources (Easter Island and the Norse in Greenland come to mind) how that works.

For anyone who wants to worry about peak oil I'd recommend Twilight in the Desert Its a fine rundown on how some of the world's largest and best oil reservoirs, in Saudi Arabia, are running dry. The Kingdom is extremely secretive about their oil production, but the author has done a lot of research that yielded what I'd consider pretty convincing results.

326 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:24:30pm

re: #317 wrenchwench

Hurry up with the matches!

SHHHH!!! Don't let BP know what we're up to! (or their shareholders!)

327 boxhead  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:24:32pm

re: #320 CapeCoddah

Of course we will. Because there will always be more people with common sense than without.

Other solutions are simply a technology problem. We can solve them. We always have. Fossil fuels will get us there. But there will be a day when fossil fuels will be a alternative and not a fact.

328 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:26:27pm

re: #306 Fozzie Bear

In the English language, it is considered correct to either use an indefinite article such as "a" or "an", or use a plural.

Allow me to provide an example:

"You are a moron."

-OR-

"You are morons."

Either is acceptable, grammatically. If you require any further assistance communicating, please, don't be afraid to ask for help.

Actually, I used it in the singular purposely. I was referring solely to you.

329 windsagio  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:27:31pm

re: #328 CapeCoddah

Ummm, err....


Well, damn.

330 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:28:30pm

re: #315 wrenchwench

Wrenchwench, I am disappointed in you. That is an argument my little granddaughter would make.
There aren't even straws for you to grasp at with that one.

331 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:29:28pm

re: #328 CapeCoddah


Your basic premise is totally wrong, though. The earth doesn't provide almost anything for us. The effect of solar energy is why we have oil, coal, and all the rest of it. They're not naturally occurring on the earth, they're a byproduct of life on earth which is wholly dependent on the sun.

There is nothing particularly special about hydrocarbons except that they fuck up the atmosphere.

And your manner of speaking about 'provided to us' does sound very creationist.

332 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:29:53pm

re: #313 windsagio

heh, another Capecoddah deathspin thread. Seems to be about one every 3 months.

Like my Scott Brown is not a Tea-partier deathspin?

333 windsagio  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:30:32pm

re: #331 Obdicut


And your manner of speaking about 'provided to us' does sound very creationist.

I think thats the real argument, but CC doesn't wanna say it outright.

"God made the earth for us, and God will provide no matter what happens."

334 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:30:40pm

re: #328 CapeCoddah

Actually, I used it in the singular purposely. I was referring solely to you.

Well, then next time I suggest that you use an indefinite article, because you look like a moron when you do so incorrectly.

335 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:31:05pm

re: #314 Fozzie Bear

Yep. Private industry got us to the moon, and developed nuclear fission and fusion all by itself.

Oh... wait...

Really, I don't see any elected officials names on the credits for developing the technologies.

336 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:31:35pm

This is fucking hilarious.

I'm sure a great drinking game could be made out of this.

337 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:31:36pm

re: #330 CapeCoddah

Wrenchwench, I am disappointed in you. That is an argument my little granddaughter would make.
There aren't even straws for you to grasp at with that one.

Your granddaughter would say the earth does not have a personality, and you would argue with her?

If that's not what you meant, some explanation might help.

338 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:31:39pm

re: #335 CapeCoddah

You'd see a bunch of government employees names on the patents.

339 windsagio  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:32:48pm

re: #335 CapeCoddah

Because we elect politicians for their technical skills! But, who did Oppenheimer and Teller work for? Also, who owned Hanford?

340 boxhead  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:32:53pm

re: #335 CapeCoddah

Really, I don't see any elected officials names on the credits for developing the technologies.

Usually it is done by the Government providing grants for research at both academic and commercial institutions.

341 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:33:12pm

Apparently the Manhattan Project was just something I dreamed up.

Did we fake the moon landings, or is someone about to claim it was really Dupont that got us there?

342 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:33:19pm

re: #309 goddamnedfrank

"Abortion among the black population far outstrips any other demographic. How many brilliant minds have we lost that way?"

Let's make abortion illegal, and get those poverty stricken dystopian blacks off welfare!

Lady, your two faces are showing.

I do not have two faces. Personally, I believe abortion is murder. But, I do not believe I have the right to tell YOUR wife what she should do. And, Lets stick to the discussion at hand, please.

343 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:34:32pm

re: #342 CapeCoddah

I do not have two faces. Personally, I believe abortion is murder. But, I do not believe I have the right to tell YOUR wife what she should do. And, Lets stick to the discussion at hand, please.

So wait... you want to tell every woman except Frank's wife what to do? I'm confused.

344 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:34:33pm

re: #319 Fozzie Bear

Common sense is a bullshit euphemism for an overly simplistic misunderstanding of complex situations.

Citation: Sarah Palin.

Common sense is common sense.

345 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:35:15pm

As much as I enjoy a good poking in the virtual eye to those who lean/hang far to, the left, I'd suggest this:

Who will, in a similar manner to the forums Charles has provided with this blog, expend the money and energy to set up a forum/blog site and invite people to collect, submit and analyze the World's current energy circumstances, and then move forward to working towards producing a report of findings and a real, no kidding, fact filled one, that may even get to a solution?

Between all the stuff the readers here know, or stumble across on the web/elsewhere (meatspace)...Who knows...might be a winner.

Then again, it sure is less wear and tear on the gray matter to textuallly joust and you don't have to scam for spam and trolls and sock puppets to keep it running, let alone approve users, yada, yada, yada.

Comments?

346 boxhead  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:35:35pm

re: #344 CapeCoddah

Common sense is common sense.

If it were so common, why is there so little of it on display?

347 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:35:59pm

re: #321 windsagio

You're insulting people, thats generally a hint that you need a break.

The rest, I won't engage on becasue I can't do it without, in essence, directly insulting you, and I wanna avoid doing that :P

I directly insulted one person, after a stupid remark about rape, and the same person for 2 other stupid remarks.

348 abolitionist  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:36:02pm

re: #344 CapeCoddah

Common sense is common sense.

Click my avatar. I dares ya'.

349 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:36:18pm

re: #345 Curt

What are you talking about? A forum to solicit ideas for solving the energy crisis?

Um, there are plenty of actual scientists, engineers, and other groups already doing that, dude.

350 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:36:40pm

re: #329 windsagio

Ummm, err...

Well, damn.

Geeze, sorry, I missed the sticky A on the keyboard. Shoot me. Then grow up.

351 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:38:38pm

re: #342 CapeCoddah

I do not have two faces. Personally, I believe abortion is murder. But, I do not believe I have the right to tell YOUR wife what she should do. And, Lets stick to the discussion at hand, please.

Let's not, as far as you know my wife is a typical poverty stricken black murderer. I'd like to conform to your bizarre worldview as much as possible, for rhetorical purposes.

Jack Burton: That is not water.
Egg Shen: Black blood of the earth.
Jack Burton: Do you mean oil?
Egg Shen: I mean black blood of the earth.

-Big Trouble in Little China

352 windsagio  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:38:41pm

re: #350 CapeCoddah

See? Getting more and more angry and combative.

Thats what I was talking about above.

When yo ustart to feel like this, its time to step away from the computer. That's what I try to do.

Hell thats why I left the next thread, I was mad at something.

353 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:38:54pm

re: #347 CapeCoddah

I directly insulted one person, after a stupid remark about rape, and the same person for 2 other stupid remarks.


Actually, it was refutation of a claim by example. You said that government can't act effectively to avoid dystopic conditions, and I provided you with an example of why that was an absurd claim.

Then you called me a Putz.

354 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:39:04pm

re: #321 windsagio

You're insulting people, thats generally a hint that you need a break.

The rest, I won't engage on becasue I can't do it without, in essence, directly insulting you, and I wanna avoid doing that :P

Windy, I am 43 years old, mother of 2 and grandma to 1. I do not need a nap because I disagree with you.

355 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:40:27pm

re: #333 windsagio

I think thats the real argument, but CC doesn't wanna say it outright.

"God made the earth for us, and God will provide no matter what happens."

LOL, you are accusing me of being a creationist? Ask Charles about that one. If the Earth does not provide our natural resources, who the hell does?

356 windsagio  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:40:29pm

re: #354 CapeCoddah

Age has nothing to do with it, but I don't know why I'm trying. Need to get out and eat before dinner rates start.

So later all, have fun!

357 windsagio  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:41:03pm

re: #355 CapeCoddah

didn't say you were a creationist, but rather an oldschool dominionist, they're slightly different :P

anwyays, really... gone :p

358 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:41:14pm

re: #354 CapeCoddah

Can you explain why you personify the earth in the way you do?

Do you accept that oil, coal, etc. depended on the sun to form, and are not 'provided' by the earth?

359 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:42:33pm

re: #325 calochortus

Yes, the earth supplies all the stuff we have (except solar energy). That certainly doesn't mean we can't use that 'stuff' up and then have none. Ask societies that overused their resources (Easter Island and the Norse in Greenland come to mind) how that works.

For anyone who wants to worry about peak oil I'd recommend Twilight in the Desert Its a fine rundown on how some of the world's largest and best oil reservoirs, in Saudi Arabia, are running dry. The Kingdom is extremely secretive about their oil production, but the author has done a lot of research that yielded what I'd consider pretty convincing results.

We have not used it up all the natural resources after millions of years... I am not real worried about running out of naturally renewable resources any time soon. Thats a run around screaming with your hair on fire argument.

360 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:43:02pm

re: #355 CapeCoddah

LOL, you are accusing me of being a creationist? Ask Charles about that one. If the Earth does not provide our natural resources, who the hell does?

The Earth doesn't give a shit about us, and isn't immune to the results of our actions. It is the most profound hubris and folly to believe that we can't alter the conditions of this planet sufficiently to make it inhospitable to our continued existence here.

That's the problem.

361 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:43:03pm

re: #331 Obdicut

Your basic premise is totally wrong, though. The earth doesn't provide almost anything for us. The effect of solar energy is why we have oil, coal, and all the rest of it. They're not naturally occurring on the earth, they're a byproduct of life on earth which is wholly dependent on the sun.

There is nothing particularly special about hydrocarbons except that they fuck up the atmosphere.

And your manner of speaking about 'provided to us' does sound very creationist.

Just look around. If it''s here....well, it's here. So are you saying it's life's fault? Dead dinos and all? How about highly squashed algae or single celled critters...I think the point is things that provide us energy, biologically, and physically are present. That leads to all sorts of interesting discussions on what else we're not supposed to use, because, well.....the physical world has them.

As for hyrdocarbons...let me know when you're going to help out by not exhaling any more CO2 or counting on C6H12C6 to get those cells a leg up on keeping you from being a former human.

We sit here discussing how bad humans are for the planet, yet argue we can't be bad to it, like we have to "save" it for something special? Yep, I was hoping to help it last until the Sun goes all Red Giant on us.

Not to toss in something that you may object to, but there is a mandate to be "good stewards" of all we have. The ecology movement, at it's core is saying that. It's the disagreement on what that looks like, and how we do it that most often gets the blood pressure up, not the fact it's necessary.

362 boxhead  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:43:50pm

re: #345 Curt

[Link: www.google.com...]

Googlere: #351 goddamnedfrank

is your friend..... seems to be lots of blogs. But as for your question on the quality of the discussion? I have not clicked on them. I have had some very good debates on the subject over at slashdot.org.

363 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:44:07pm

re: #359 CapeCoddah

We have not used it up all the natural resources after millions of years... I am not real worried about running out of naturally renewable resources any time soon. Thats a run around screaming with your hair on fire argument.

Fossil fuels are only naturally renewable on the scale of millions of years. We will have used all that is left within 100 at the current rate.

364 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:45:18pm

re: #333 windsagio

I think thats the real argument, but CC doesn't wanna say it outright.

"God made the earth for us, and God will provide no matter what happens."

Interesting thought. If you found a old post of mine on Abortion, Surely you can find one on creationism?

365 boxhead  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:45:32pm

re: #351 goddamnedfrank

Black Blood of the Earth deleted scene from Big Trouble in Little China.

366 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:45:47pm

re: #349 Obdicut

What are you talking about? A forum to solicit ideas for solving the energy crisis?

Um, there are plenty of actual scientists, engineers, and other groups already doing that, dude.

Yes, I know....but since they haven't gotten there, and this group seems to be tossing out ideas, why not put the mental effort towards a solution? I was trying to make a point on the growing level of "tenseness" and passion.

Made you stop and think....

367 garhighway  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:46:02pm

re: #246 CapeCoddah

Oh, thats right, Obama will feed, house and clothe us all.

Really? Cool. Sign me up.

368 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:47:26pm

re: #361 Curt

Just look around. If it''s here...well, it's here. So are you saying it's life's fault? Dead dinos and all? How about highly squashed algae or single celled critters...I think the point is things that provide us energy, biologically, and physically are present. That leads to all sorts of interesting discussions on what else we're not supposed to use, because, well...the physical world has them.

As for hyrdocarbons...let me know when you're going to help out by not exhaling any more CO2 or counting on C6H12C6 to get those cells a leg up on keeping you from being a former human.

We sit here discussing how bad humans are for the planet, yet argue we can't be bad to it, like we have to "save" it for something special? Yep, I was hoping to help it last until the Sun goes all Red Giant on us.

Not to toss in something that you may object to, but there is a mandate to be "good stewards" of all we have. The ecology movement, at it's core is saying that. It's the disagreement on what that looks like, and how we do it that most often gets the blood pressure up, not the fact it's necessary.

There is no comparison between CO2 released as the result of respiration and decomposition, and CO2 released from sequestered sources such as fossil fuels. The CO2 you exhale was already in the system. You eat sugars, proteins, and fats, and you exhale CO2. The CO2 is absorbed by plants, eaten by animals, and you eat it again.

Respiration is a closed cycle. Fossil fuels are not part of that cycle.

369 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:48:46pm

re: #346 boxhead

If it were so common, why is there so little of it on display?

Wondering the same thing myself.

370 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:49:57pm

re: #361 Curt

Just look around. If it''s here...well, it's here. So are you saying it's life's fault? Dead dinos and all? How about highly squashed algae or single celled critters...I think the point is things that provide us energy, biologically, and physically are present. That leads to all sorts of interesting discussions on what else we're not supposed to use, because, well...the physical world has them.

This made no sense.


As for hyrdocarbons...let me know when you're going to help out by not exhaling any more CO2 or counting on C6H12C6 to get those cells a leg up on keeping you from being a former human.

Breathing is carbon neutral. Do you really not know that?

[Link: phaseportrait.blogspot.com...]

Forgive the bluntness with which that gentleman explains this basic fact.


We sit here discussing how bad humans are for the planet, yet argue we can't be bad to it, like we have to "save" it for something special? Yep, I was hoping to help it last until the Sun goes all Red Giant on us.

Humans aren't bad for the planet. Some of the current things humans are doing are changing the environment to make it more hostile to humans.


Not to toss in something that you may object to, but there is a mandate to be "good stewards" of all we have. The ecology movement, at it's core is saying that. It's the disagreement on what that looks like, and how we do it that most often gets the blood pressure up, not the fact it's necessary.

No, I'm sorry, but AGW denial is all about saying it's not necessary. The mocking of Obama when he talked about Americans reducing consumption-- that's saying it's not necessary. CapeCoddah is saying it's not necessary, here in this thread.

371 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:49:59pm

re: #349 Obdicut

What are you talking about? A forum to solicit ideas for solving the energy crisis?

Um, there are plenty of actual scientists, engineers, and other groups already doing that, dude.

Apparently, not very well.

372 boxhead  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:50:20pm

re: #368 Fozzie Bear

Respiration is a closed cycle. Fossil fuels are not part of that cycle.

Fossil fuel is ancient sunlight.

373 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:51:10pm

re: #352 windsagio

See? Getting more and more angry and combative.

Thats what I was talking about above.

When yo ustart to feel like this, its time to step away from the computer. That's what I try to do.

Hell thats why I left the next thread, I was mad at something.

You have to step away when you miss a letter typing?

374 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:51:26pm

re: #371 CapeCoddah

Apparently, not very well.

Well, they have to deal with people claiming that oil is a magic bullet provided for us by the earth, so it's been rough going.

375 Nimed  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:54:10pm

re: #364 CapeCoddah

Interesting thought. If you found a old post of mine on Abortion, Surely you can find one on creationism?

It's funny, because many people argue that creationism is "just common sense".

376 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:54:17pm

re: #352 windsagio

See? Getting more and more angry and combative.

Thats what I was talking about above.

When yo ustart to feel like this, its time to step away from the computer. That's what I try to do.

Hell thats why I left the next thread, I was mad at something.

You all are now trying to intimate that I must be a creationist because the Earth provides us with it's natural resources... And I am angry and combative? Because I disagree with you on the Oil issue? LOL. . Libs always want you to just go away or tag you as a racist, a hater or whatever, when a body will not back down. Sorry my friends, you all have met your match in my stubborn Italian ass.

377 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:54:50pm

re: #357 windsagio

didn't say you were a creationist, but rather an oldschool dominionist, they're slightly different :P

anwyays, really... gone :p

Have a lovely evening, Windy!

378 abolitionist  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:54:54pm

re: #359 CapeCoddah

We have not used it up all the natural resources after millions of years... I am not real worried about running out of naturally renewable resources any time soon. Thats a run around screaming with your hair on fire argument.

1859 - First oil well in Titusville, PA.
2000 - We've used up about half the world's oil.
Assuming symmetry only, oil usage by about 2160 will be comparable (quantity-wise) to levels of usage at the start of the Civil War. That's not much.

379 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:55:37pm

re: #353 Fozzie Bear

Actually, it was refutation of a claim by example. You said that government can't act effectively to avoid dystopic conditions, and I provided you with an example of why that was an absurd claim.

Then you called me a Putz.

I did. And meant it. Still do.

380 boxhead  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:55:42pm

re: #371 CapeCoddah

Apparently, not very well.

Hmmm.... you would be surprised. Brazil's automobiles run almost entirely on sugarcane. Sure, USA has way more cars, but most intelligent countries are moving away from something has cannot last forever. Those that can't are doomed to the junk heap of history.

381 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:56:24pm

re: #358 Obdicut

Can you explain why you personify the earth in the way you do?

Do you accept that oil, coal, etc. depended on the sun to form, and are not 'provided' by the earth?

If the Earth does not provide our natural resources, care to tell me who does?

382 Nimed  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:56:32pm

re: #376 CapeCoddah

You all are now trying to intimate that I must be a creationist because the Earth provides us with it's natural resources... And I am angry and combative? Because I disagree with you on the Oil issue? LOL. . Libs always want you to just go away or tag you as a racist, a hater or whatever, when a body will not back down. Sorry my friends, you all have met your match in my stubborn Italian ass.

Here we go...

383 boxhead  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:57:15pm

re: #381 CapeCoddah

If the Earth does not provide our natural resources, care to tell me who does?

The guy at the corner store?

384 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:57:22pm

re: #372 boxhead

Fossil fuel is ancient sunlight.

In a way, yes.

Absolutely EVERY form of energy ultimately comes from stars, except, ironically, extra-solar fusion, if we can ever get it to work to our benefit.

Solar is radiant energy from the sun.
Wind is the result of uneven heating of the earth by the sun.
Hydroelectric is the result of precipitation, which is the result of evaporation, which is the result of the sun.
Fossil fuels are hydrocarbons produced initially via biological activity, i.e., photosynthesis.
Even fission ultimately relies on stars, as heavy (fissile) metals like Plutonium and Uranium can only be created in high energy events such as supernovae.

The only thing we can do apart from what is ultimately solar energy is to take hydrogen and perform fusion, and emulate the sun. Sadly, the sun has the advantage of mass and gravitation to stabilize and drive the ongoing reaction there. We have to find other means.

Really, by extension, all the usable energy in the universe comes from gravity. Then again, that might be getting a tad too abstract.

385 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:58:21pm

re: #379 CapeCoddah

I did. And meant it. Still do.

Putz is not Italian. Did you mean to call him Mario Puzo?

386 Racer X  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:59:23pm

re: #48 WindUpBird

And when was plastic invented?

IIRC plastic was invented in the late 1880's primarily for the manufacture of billiard balls. Ivory was too expensive. I could be mistaken.

387 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:59:40pm

re: #385 Spare O'Lake

Putz is not Italian. Did you mean to call him Mario Puzo?

Is that the guy from "The Money Store" ads in the 80's?

388 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 3:59:47pm

re: #358 Obdicut

Can you explain why you personify the earth in the way you do?

Do you accept that oil, coal, etc. depended on the sun to form, and are not 'provided' by the earth?

re: #357 windsagio

didn't say you were a creationist, but rather an oldschool dominionist, they're slightly different :P

anwyays, really... gone :p

LOL, I want to wait and see just how finely you intend to try to split that hair to try to "trap" me in something! LOL, Not gonna happen.

389 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:00:46pm

re: #387 Fozzie Bear

Is that the guy from "The Money Store" ads in the 80's?

The Godfather screenplay.

390 boxhead  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:01:37pm

re: #384 Fozzie Bear

Really, by extension, all the usable energy in the universe comes from gravity. Then again, that might be getting a tad too abstract.

Lets not forget the nuclear forces. Unless you are saying that only the deep gravity well of a star can bring fusion? :)

391 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:03:33pm

re: #390 boxhead

Lets not forget the nuclear forces. Unless you are saying that only the deep gravity well of a star can bring fusion? :)

Well, only the deep gravity well of a star can create the pressure and temperature necessary for a naturally occurring, stable, ongoing fusion reaction.

That doesn't mean we can't do it, but the forces involved are astronomical. (forgive the pun)

392 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:04:39pm

re: #363 Fozzie Bear

Fossil fuels are only naturally renewable on the scale of millions of years. We will have used all that is left within 100 at the current rate.

In a hundred years, we will not have put a dent in it.

393 allegro  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:05:34pm

re: #392 CapeCoddah

In a hundred years, we will not have put a dent in it.

Can you really be this lacking in a reality based education?

394 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:06:40pm

re: #392 CapeCoddah

In a hundred years, we will not have put a dent in it.

I'm going to say this the only way I know how: You have no fucking idea what you are talking about.

Do you really believe that? Do you honestly know that little about fossil fuels?

395 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:07:57pm

I'm done trying to teach the willfully ignorant.

Dinner time.

396 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:09:00pm

re: #374 Obdicut

Well, they have to deal with people claiming that oil is a magic bullet provided for us by the earth, so it's been rough going.

The fact that someone has one method already does not stop another from being identified. I will agree that development beyond the lab stage may face significant hurdles, but it does not keep an alternative from being viable...if it actually is viable and the testing data is not cooked to make it appear to be something it isn't as was the case in cold fusion a few years back.

"Claims" never stopped anything.

397 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:09:08pm

re: #374 Obdicut

Well, they have to deal with people claiming that oil is a magic bullet provided for us by the earth, so it's been rough going.

I see. Oil is the reason no other viable forms of energy have been found, despite trillions of dollars and decades of research by the brightest minds alive?

398 Nimed  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:10:51pm

re: #393 allegro

Can you really be this lacking in a reality based education?

re: #394 Fozzie Bear

I'm going to say this the only way I know how: You have no fucking idea what you are talking about.

Do you really believe that? Do you honestly know that little about fossil fuels?

It's just more of that "common sense". CapeCoddah is a mom, doncha know?

399 boxhead  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:11:04pm

re: #397 CapeCoddah

I see. Oil is the reason no other viable forms of energy have been found, despite trillions of dollars and decades of research by the brightest minds alive?

What do you mean that oil is the only viable source? Do other forms of fossil fuel count? What about nuclear fission? Bio-fuels?

400 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:11:23pm

re: #381 CapeCoddah

If the Earth does not provide our natural resources, care to tell me who does?

The sun, mostly, as I already explained.

And the earth is not a 'who'.

401 windsagio  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:11:24pm

re: #394 Fozzie Bear

back again briefly.

I"m telling you, this is all vaguely disguised 'Man cannot interfere with God's Plan' stuff. God (or The Earth) put this stuff here for our use, and we cannot change that use by running it out.

Its so clear, its almost painful.

402 Nimed  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:11:48pm

re: #397 CapeCoddah

I see. Oil is the reason no other viable forms of energy have been found, despite trillions of dollars and decades of research by the brightest minds alive?

Keep repeating that nonsense like a mantra. It worked for you...

403 abolitionist  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:12:11pm

re: #397 CapeCoddah

I see. Oil is the reason no other viable forms of energy have been founddeveloped much, despite trillions of dollars and decades of research by the brightest minds alive?

With a minor amendment, I'd agree.

404 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:12:19pm

re: #397 CapeCoddah

I see. Oil is the reason no other viable forms of energy have been found, despite trillions of dollars and decades of research by the brightest minds alive?

Many other viable forms of energy have been developed. It's just lying to say otherwise.

Oil is still the most cost-effective (and coal, and the rest) because the true cost is not actually assessed; the cost to the environment.

So market forces hold back adoption of cleaner energy.

This is common sense.

405 windsagio  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:13:04pm

last thing as I vanish again:
Secret master?

406 Nimed  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:13:29pm

re: #400 Obdicut

The sun, mostly, as I already explained.

And the earth is not a 'who'.

Nanny-Earthism!

407 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:13:33pm

re: #375 Nimed

It's funny, because many people argue that creationism is "just common sense".

Nothing common sense about arguing Lots wife turned into a pillar of salt. Never had any use for organized religion, not since I was a child asking our priest uncomfortable questions and being asked to go sit on the steps for the rest of CCD class because he had no answers for me. Nice try. re: #393 allegro

Can you really be this lacking in a reality based education?

Actually, I am very well educated, by a well respected, ivy league liberal university.

408 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:13:57pm

re: #396 Curt

I have a lot of difficulty understanding most of what you write.

I do want to make sure, however, that you understand that breathing is carbon-neutral. Do you?

409 windsagio  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:14:25pm

re: #407 CapeCoddah

OK, one last one.

And you also own a Limo company, and are a woman.

We know!

410 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:14:48pm

re: #395 Fozzie Bear

I'm done trying to teach the willfully ignorant.

Dinner time.

Do you need a nap, Fozzie? you are getting awfully mean spirited!
LOL!

411 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:16:39pm

re: #399 boxhead

What do you mean that oil is the only viable source? Do other forms of fossil fuel count? What about nuclear fission? Bio-fuels?

No, coal, gas, etc... sorry , did not mean to say it that way, I am focusing on oil for the moment.. Did not mean to imply that.

412 calochortus  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:17:41pm

re: #359 CapeCoddah

We have not used it up all the natural resources after millions of years... I am not real worried about running out of naturally renewable resources any time soon. Thats a run around screaming with your hair on fire argument.

People didn't use them up everywhere all at once because they lacked the ability to travel and ship things in a timely manner. Populations were smaller due to famine and disease.
You're trying to tell me people didn't use up their local resources and starve? Wells never ran dry? Easter Islanders weren't trapped there because they cut down all the trees and could no longer make boats?
We never nuked the earth into an uninhabitable state over millions of years either. Does that mean we couldn't do it now?

The earth will recover, in a fashion, and go on no matter what we do, but there is no guarantee that we will be a part of it.

413 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:18:04pm

re: #400 Obdicut

The sun, mostly, as I already explained.

And the earth is not a 'who'.

Really, so, the next time I want a glass of water, I should what, Pray to the sun god?

414 Racer X  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:18:11pm

re: #397 CapeCoddah

I see. Oil is the reason no other viable forms of energy have been found, despite trillions of dollars and decades of research by the brightest minds alive?

Partially true.

Los Angeles had a wonderful transportation network back in the early 1920's. Electric Streetcars ran all over the place.

Ford, Firestone, Goodyear, and others conspired to close them all down so they could sell automobiles to the masses instead.

One of the worst blunders in human history, IMHO.

415 boxhead  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:18:26pm

re: #411 CapeCoddah

No, coal, gas, etc... sorry , did not mean to say it that way, I am focusing on oil for the moment.. Did not mean to imply that.

OK... so you are saying that only fossil fuels are viable. What about nuclear fission? In Brazil they have converted their autos almost entirely to bio-fuels. Doesn't that count?

416 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:19:11pm

re: #400 Obdicut

The sun, mostly, as I already explained.

And the earth is not a 'who'.

Please show me where I referred to the earth as a Who?
Dr. Seuss, maybe, not me.

417 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:19:58pm

re: #401 windsagio

back again briefly.

I"m telling you, this is all vaguely disguised 'Man cannot interfere with God's Plan' stuff. God (or The Earth) put this stuff here for our use, and we cannot change that use by running it out.

Its so clear, its almost painful.

Windy, please go search for my thoughts on creationism. They go back quite a way here.

418 boxhead  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:20:15pm

re: #414 Racer X

Partially true.

Los Angeles had a wonderful transportation network back in the early 1920's. Electric Streetcars ran all over the place.

Ford, Firestone, Goodyear, and others conspired to close them all down so they could sell automobiles to the masses instead.

One of the worst blunders in human history, IMHO.

arrrrr I curse those companies every time I am locked in traffic. So bad it affects people lives negatively.

419 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:21:00pm

re: #416 CapeCoddah

Please show me where I referred to the earth as a Who?
Dr. Seuss, maybe, not me.

You asked "If the earth doesn't provide, then who does?"

Should have been 'then what does'. You've been personifying the earth throughout this discussion.

Again: Hydrocarbons' original energy source is solar energy. They are not naturally occurring in the earth, they occur only because we have life that uses solar energy.

And yes, oil will run out. Unless-- you're not one of those people who believe in abiotic oil, are you?

420 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:21:49pm

re: #408 Obdicut

I have a lot of difficulty understanding most of what you write.

Simple version: Use of oil never stopped anyone from coming up with an idea of an alternative source.

I do want to make sure, however, that you understand that breathing is carbon-neutral. Do you?

Can you show that it is a completely carbon neutral function? does the ebb and flow of the animal population, and the Earth's flora factor in at all? It could be true at the individual level, yet off balance in the total eco-sphere. In reality, that's why the AGW is an issue, right? The balance is not being maintained.

Just out of curiosity, are you, or have you been an environmental scientist, biologist, or bio-engineer, or have a related scientific background?

421 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:23:30pm

re: #409 windsagio

OK, one last one.

And you also own a Limo company, and are a woman.

We know!

No Windy. I WORK for a limo company. I DO NOT own one. Never claimed to.
Old timers will remember lots of discussion about my employers health a couple of years ago.

422 allegro  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:23:48pm

re: #420 Curt

Just out of curiosity, are you, or have you been an environmental scientist, biologist, or bio-engineer, or have a related scientific background?

I am, do, and can confirm that Obdi has this correct.

423 Nimed  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:24:12pm

re: #407 CapeCoddah

Actually, I am very well educated, by a well respected, ivy league liberal university.

Nothing common sense about arguing Lots wife turned into a pillar of salt. Never had any use for organized religion, not since I was a child asking our priest uncomfortable questions and being asked to go sit on the steps for the rest of CCD class because he had no answers for me. Nice try.

I don't really care about your thoughts regarding organized religion, and I didn't say you're a creationist. My point is that appeals to common sense are a lousy argument, and that people make them to justify virtually anything, including creationism.

424 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:26:36pm

re: #420 Curt

Can you show that it is a completely carbon neutral function?

I linked to something that does, yes. Did you not read it?

425 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:26:47pm

re: #412 calochortus

People didn't use them up everywhere all at once because they lacked the ability to travel and ship things in a timely manner. Populations were smaller due to famine and disease.
You're trying to tell me people didn't use up their local resources and starve? Wells never ran dry? Easter Islanders weren't trapped there because they cut down all the trees and could no longer make boats?
We never nuked the earth into an uninhabitable state over millions of years either. Does that mean we couldn't do it now?

The earth will recover, in a fashion, and go on no matter what we do, but there is no guarantee that we will be a part of it.

Eventually, as we know well, most species go extinct thru evolution and the natural process. We will not be here forever.
We have not been here forever, by a long shot.

426 calochortus  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:28:23pm

re: #425 CapeCoddah

Eventually, as we know well, most species go extinct thru evolution and the natural process. We will not be here forever.
We have not been here forever, by a long shot.

Well, gee, I'd like to think that won't happen sooner than it has to.

427 Ben G. Hazi  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:28:41pm

re: #386 Racer X

IIRC plastic was invented in the late 1880's primarily for the manufacture of billiard balls. Ivory was too expensive. I could be mistaken.

Phenolic resins (such as Bakelite), IIRC...

428 allegro  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:28:41pm

re: #425 CapeCoddah

Eventually, as we know well, most species go extinct thru evolution and the natural process.

Extinction is not a result of evolution or natural process in the form you imply. If, by natural process, you mean extinction level event such as an asteroid, there is support.

429 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:29:41pm

re: #415 boxhead

OK... so you are saying that only fossil fuels are viable. What about nuclear fission? In Brazil they have converted their autos almost entirely to bio-fuels. Doesn't that count?

At this time, fossil fuels and nuclear are the only viable options for the amounts they are needed in. Otherwise, there would be a lot more just as available as the fossil fuels are.

430 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:30:54pm

re: #419 Obdicut

You asked "If the earth doesn't provide, then who does?"

Should have been 'then what does'. You've been personifying the earth throughout this discussion.

Again: Hydrocarbons' original energy source is solar energy. They are not naturally occurring in the earth, they occur only because we have life that uses solar energy.

And yes, oil will run out. Unless-- you're not one of those people who believe in abiotic oil, are you?

LOL, Just, LOL!

431 calochortus  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:31:08pm

re: #429 CapeCoddah

Which is why we need to work on other sources-so they will be viable. I trust you aren't suggesting that the oil can't run out?

432 allegro  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:31:48pm

re: #431 calochortus

I trust you aren't suggesting that the oil can't run out?

Too late. Already has... repeatedly.

433 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:34:07pm

re: #423 Nimed

I don't really care about your thoughts regarding organized religion, and I didn't say you're a creationist. My point is that appeals to common sense are a lousy argument, and that people make them to justify virtually anything, including creationism.

Uh, it has been implied here, by several folks, that because I stated the Earth provides us with our natural resources, I must be a creationist. Poor Windy is giddy with it. Oh Well, C'est la vie

434 calochortus  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:34:29pm

re: #432 allegro

LOL-except that it hasn't-there's been about an 11 year supply of proven reserves for decades (or at least that was true when I was in grad school.) I suspect that is going to change if it hasn't already. Grad school was umm, decades ago...

435 b_Snark  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:34:36pm

re: #277 CapeCoddah

We breathe air the Earth provides. We eat food the Earth provides. We drink water the Earth provides, we use oil the Earth provides, we use wood, minerals, metals, and many, many other things in nature.
Oil is a substance as natural to the Earth as Air, Water, Produce, Meat, lumber, salt, gold, etc... It is what the Earth provided for us to power ourselves with.

And burning it produces a compound that will ultimately give us severe problems.

BTW, the Earth didn't 'provide' us with anything. We use what is available. Anthropomorphizing available resources may make it sound like it's OK to use as much of whatever as we want but it's an illusion. Stuff runs out, other stuff fills up, toxins kill and the environment is frequently no friend.

436 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:36:14pm

re: #426 calochortus

Well, gee, I'd like to think that won't happen sooner than it has to.

You have nothing to worry about. No boogyman around the corner.

437 allegro  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:36:16pm

re: #434 calochortus

LOL-except that it hasn't-there's been about an 11 year supply of proven reserves for decades (or at least that was true when I was in grad school.) I suspect that is going to change if it hasn't already. Grad school was umm, decades ago...

You misunderstood. My apologies. I was saying that Capr Coddah has been claiming the oil will not run out.

438 calochortus  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:37:41pm

Sorry Allegro. Not always easy to catch the nuances.

Its been fun, but it has come to my attention that the refrigerator is not spontaneously refilling itself with what is needed for dinner. Shocking, isn't it? But I must deal with it.

439 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:38:47pm

re: #397 CapeCoddah

I see. Oil is the reason no other viable forms of energy have been found, despite trillions of dollars and decades of research by the brightest minds alive?

Trillions? Um... it's not even in the billions until recently.

BTW, Zataran's Jambalaya mix isn't bad at all with some good cajun sausage as the meat. And dirt cheap to boot.

440 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:39:15pm

re: #430 CapeCoddah

LOL, Just, LOL!

You're kind of a strange person.

Why don't you think we'll make a dent in oil reserves in 100 years?

441 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:39:44pm

re: #428 allegro

Yes, natural disasters, or events, as you refer to them. We have lots of species that have evolved into something else over the millenia, also, and several, crocodiles, turtles, alligators, a fish called the Coelacanth (although this one is really, really rare), for instance that have remained largely unchanged.

442 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:40:42pm

re: #440 Obdicut

You're kind of a strange person.

Why don't you think we'll make a dent in oil reserves in 100 years?

This deserves an answer.

443 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:41:48pm

re: #431 calochortus

Which is why we need to work on other sources-so they will be viable. I trust you aren't suggesting that the oil can't run out?

Not in our lifetime, or several more to come. We have been working on those other resources for a long, long time. We can't even come close to making them viable cost and volume wise.

444 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:43:37pm

re: #443 CapeCoddah

Not in our lifetime, or several more to come. We have been working on those other resources for a long, long time. We can't even come close to making them viable cost and volume wise.

Are you aware that the scientific consensus on this issue runs directly counter to what you are saying here?

445 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:45:58pm

re: #432 allegro

Too late. Already has... repeatedly.

Where did the oil come from? Has that process halted? No. I understand the usage rate at this time will eventually outstrip the resource, but, it will renew, just as it formed in the first place.
And it will as long as the Earth exists in it's current form

446 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:48:31pm

re: #445 CapeCoddah

Where did the oil come from? Has that process halted? No. I understand the usage rate at this time will eventually outstrip the resource, but, it will renew, just as it formed in the first place.
And it will as long as the Earth exists in it's current form

The rate of usage is billions of times that of the rate of accumulation. From a human standpoint, it may as well not accumulate at all.

In geological time, sure. But we don't have an amount of time to deal with the problem that is meaningful on a geological scale.

447 allegro  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:48:45pm

re: #445 CapeCoddah

Where did the oil come from? Has that process halted? No. I understand the usage rate at this time will eventually outstrip the resource, but, it will renew, just as it formed in the first place.
And it will as long as the Earth exists in it's current form

Honest to Pete, I swear, I have really tried to restrain but dayum, yours has been the most astonishing display of ignorance I believe have ever had the displeasure to witness. Do you really have one simple, freaking clue what oil is and how it formed?

448 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:49:34pm

re: #440 Obdicut

You're kind of a strange person.

Why don't you think we'll make a dent in oil reserves in 100 years?

Ah, this planet is such a little, tiny thing.

449 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:49:57pm

re: #422 allegro

I am, do, and can confirm that Obdi has this correct.

Great...then it's great to know we have some good background here. I know, at the individal level he is correct, but the entire system of the planet is not, hence the AGW discussion. The specific attribution of all parts of the system are subject to be factored in, and if not, the "test" results and conclusions may lead us astray in the planned course of action.

450 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:51:10pm

re: #424 Obdicut

I linked to something that does, yes. Did you not read it?

did you not fully read my response?

451 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:51:19pm

re: #444 Fozzie Bear

Are you aware that the scientific consensus on this issue runs directly counter to what you are saying here?

That may be, Where are they then? A bird in the hand...

452 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:52:39pm

re: #446 Fozzie Bear

The rate of usage is billions of times that of the rate of accumulation. From a human standpoint, it may as well not accumulate at all.

In geological time, sure. But we don't have an amount of time to deal with the problem that is meaningful on a geological scale.

Yes, and it has been building up for how many tens of millions of years?

453 abolitionist  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:53:07pm

re: #443 CapeCoddah

Not in our lifetime, or several more to come. We have been working on those other resources for a long, long time. We can't even come close to making them viable cost and volume wise.

Hubbert peak graph showing the world's oil production peak.

But it's a big secret, so let's not run around screaming like our hair was on fire.

454 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:53:28pm

re: #447 allegro

Honest to Pete, I swear, I have really tried to restrain but dayum, yours has been the most astonishing display of ignorance I believe have ever had the displeasure to witness. Do you really have one simple, freaking clue what oil is and how it formed?

Yep.

455 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:54:30pm

re: #423 Nimed

I don't really care about your thoughts regarding organized religion, and I didn't say you're a creationist. My point is that appeals to common sense are a lousy argument, and that people make them to justify virtually anything, including creationism.

I find "common sense" is a valuable commodity, and I can't recall a single time it was used as a call to embrace creationism. Usually it was when someone should have known if they "used common sense" and actually stopped at the red light, they wouldn't have gotten t boned by the other car. Stuff like that: Common knowledge in regular real life things.

456 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:55:16pm

re: #452 CapeCoddah

Yes, and it has been building up for how many tens of millions of years?

Look at the graph linked in post #453. Then explain that in the light of geometrically increasing demand, and advancing exploration and extraction technologies.

457 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:55:49pm

re: #453 abolitionist

Hubbert peak graph showing the world's oil production peak.

But it's a big secret, so let's not run around screaming like our hair was on fire.

And where is the window into the Oil reserves? The dipstick, maybe? There is a lot of oil down there, land and sea. We have not even scratched the surface.

458 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:56:50pm

re: #457 CapeCoddah

And where is the window into the Oil reserves? The dipstick, maybe? There is a lot of oil down there, land and sea. We have not even scratched the surface.

And what do you base this on? Where is all the oil hiding?

459 Nimed  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:58:27pm

re: #433 CapeCoddah

Uh, it has been implied here, by several folks, that because I stated the Earth provides us with our natural resources, I must be a creationist. Poor Windy is giddy with it. Oh Well, C'est la vie

It's pretty clear that I was referring to your initial appeals to "common sense".

Some really basic stuff -- there are negative externalities associated with the use of oil. Damage to the environment (AGW in particular) is one, strategic dependence on external countries for supply (some of them our enemies) is another. Negative externalities are a textbook example of a market failure, and imposing a Pigovean tax on a good that generate negative externalities was defended by the likes of Milton Friedman.

And yes, oil will eventually "run out", in the sense that will be extremely expensive to extract from most of the reserves that are now being discovered. You seem to disagree -- can you point to a source that claims otherwise?

Ludwig would argue that we already have cost-effective renewable alternatives -- you can check his posts on smart grids and plenty of other solutions. But, even if we don't, we should invest in research to make them cost-effective. Batteries have come a long way in 30 years, and so did a number of renewable technologies. So what is your problem with this?

460 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 4:59:38pm

re: #458 Fozzie Bear

And what do you base this on? Where is all the oil hiding?

We have untapped sources here in Alaska, a huge reserve was discovered not long ago in one of the Dakotas, Canada has enormous reserves..... and there have been lots of reports on just how much oil has been found squashed by various entities.

461 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 5:00:26pm

re: #445 CapeCoddah

Where did the oil come from? Has that process halted?

Oh boy.

462 abolitionist  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 5:01:00pm

re: #457 CapeCoddah

And where is the window into the Oil reserves? The dipstick, maybe? There is a lot of oil down there, land and sea. We have not even scratched the surface.

Yes we have, and US oil production is mostly history.

463 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 5:03:11pm

re: #449 Curt

What you just said is complete nonsense.

464 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 5:03:28pm

re: #458 Fozzie Bear

And what do you base this on? Where is all the oil hiding?

Well, there are 2 trillion barrels under the Rockies, also. Lots more of those pockets. To say it is not there because we refuse to tap it and minerals reports on it are buried is ludicrous.

465 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 5:04:16pm

re: #449 Curt

Great...then it's great to know we have some good background here. I know, at the individal level he is correct, but the entire system of the planet is not, hence the AGW discussion. The specific attribution of all parts of the system are subject to be factored in, and if not, the "test" results and conclusions may lead us astray in the planned course of action.

The carbon cycle is indeed real.

But it is slooooooooow. It's not meaningful in terms of a human timescale.

466 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 5:05:40pm

re: #464 CapeCoddah

Well, there are 2 trillion barrels under the Rockies, also. Lots more of those pockets. To say it is not there because we refuse to tap it and minerals reports on it are buried is ludicrous.

Ever heard of the Bakken formation?

467 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 5:05:56pm

re: #465 Fozzie Bear

Thanks, Fozzie.

It wasn't complete nonsense. Just complete nonsense when talking about AGW.

468 Nimed  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 5:06:12pm

re: #455 Curt

I find "common sense" is a valuable commodity, and I can't recall a single time it was used as a call to embrace creationism. Usually it was when someone should have known if they "used common sense" and actually stopped at the red light, they wouldn't have gotten t boned by the other car. Stuff like that: Common knowledge in regular real life things.


Here's a New Scientist article on the subject:
[Link: lambdadelta.wordpress.com...]

Some general sentiments are also red flags. Authors with religious motives make shameless appeals to common sense, from the staid – “There is nothing we can be more certain of than the reality of our sense of self” (James Le Fanu in Why Us?) – to the silly – “Yer granny was an ape!” (creationist blogger Denyse O’Leary). If common sense were a reliable guide, we wouldn’t need science in the first place.
469 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 5:07:29pm

re: #460 CapeCoddah

We have untapped sources here in Alaska, a huge reserve was discovered not long ago in one of the Dakotas, Canada has enormous reserves... and there have been lots of reports on just how much oil has been found squashed by various entities.

Trillions of barrels?

I don't imagine you could substantiate that, could you? A link is all I ask.

470 allegro  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 5:07:39pm

re: #463 Obdicut

What you just said is complete nonsense.

Actually, he made a lot of sense. What I read him as saying is that all factors that might be contributing to AGW need to be factored in so as not to skew the data. I agree.

471 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 5:08:04pm

woops, I meant to respond to 464

472 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 5:08:11pm

re: #445 CapeCoddah

Where did the oil come from? Has that process halted? No. I understand the usage rate at this time will eventually outstrip the resource, but, it will renew, just as it formed in the first place.
And it will as long as the Earth exists in it's current form

If we keep adding CO2 to the system the process will absolutely halt, as the world's oceans get too acidic and hot to support diatomaceous life. Unless you buy into the quack abiotic theory of oil formation, which wouldn't surprise me, there will be an ultimate end to terrestrial oil formation, as a direct result of continuing to burn it.

473 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 5:09:56pm

Yes, ocean acidification due to carbonic acid (dissolved CO2) may very well make the issue of climate moot.

Temperature doesn't much matter if we can't breathe.

474 Nimed  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 5:11:32pm

re: #461 Obdicut

Oh boy.

Oil is a renewable energy!

475 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 5:12:16pm

re: #470 allegro

Sure. But his initial comment was

As for hyrdocarbons...let me know when you're going to help out by not exhaling any more CO2 or counting on C6H12C6 to get those cells a leg up on keeping you from being a former human.

That was clearly mixing up the carbon cycle with the usage of hydrocarbons for fuel.

476 allegro  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 5:14:29pm

re: #475 Obdicut

That was clearly mixing up the carbon cycle with the usage of hydrocarbons for fuel.

Agreed.

477 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 5:18:09pm

re: #470 allegro

Actually, he made a lot of sense. What I read him as saying is that all factors that might be contributing to AGW need to be factored in so as not to skew the data. I agree.

Exactly. I spent a few years working modeling and simulation, and you can easily come away with bad information if you don't make sure all factors are well documented and tracked.

478 abolitionist  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 5:20:08pm

re: #474 Nimed

Oil is a renewable energy!

Indeed. Take sugar (carbohydrate = C02 + H2O), and apply pressure and heat, to squeeze out those big oxygen atoms. It just takes a while. :)

479 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 5:23:05pm

I can't wait to see what all of that spilled oil, dispersant and increasingly acidified water does to the New England lobstah fishery in the next few decades, as it creeps up the coast. Yum!

Trying to describe reality in terms CC can theoretically relate to.

480 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 5:23:19pm

re: #468 Nimed

"Some general" is the metric? Use it that way, so....anyone using "Common Sense" has that exact context in mind?

BRILLIANT!

I'll have to reboot my mental dictionary and realize I was subconsciously trying to corrupt unsuspecting atheists! I'd say it was rather unsuccessful anyhow.

481 Curt  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 5:28:06pm

re: #467 Obdicut

Thanks, Fozzie.

It wasn't complete nonsense. Just complete nonsense when talking about AGW.

How is discussing the total sum of the real environment be checked, tested, measured and decision made upon it total nonsense? Might it be you just didn't understand?

If we're going to make a huge shift in the method by which energy is used, we should commit to making sure the facts are just that, facts, not...a single sample of one single living entity in balance.

If you're not a student of the field, actively, or in a self study mode, or a professional working in the field, maybe the best response was: Can you clarify, not that's nonsensical.

482 calochortus  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 5:47:12pm

re: #466 CapeCoddah

Ever heard of the Bakken formation?

Just popping in for a moment-yes, I've heard of the Bakken. According to Snopes there's about one year's worth of our oil needs in there.

The Alberta tar sands have a lot of hydrocarbons, but they're not usable without doing a lot of chemistry and they leave a moonscape behind. Maybe that doesn't bother you, but it does me.

The Western Slope of Colorado. Oil shale. As they say, the fuel of the future, and it always will be. It looked good in the 20s, again in the 70s, but Shell closed their experimental operation there some years ago. It wasn't economic then, its not now, and there are once again huge environmental issues. Among them the fact that the volume of the material removed actually increases once the oil is extracted so you can't fit it back in from whence it came.

483 boxhead  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 6:06:56pm

re: #429 CapeCoddah

At this time, fossil fuels and nuclear are the only viable options for the amounts they are needed in. Otherwise, there would be a lot more just as available as the fossil fuels are.

Ok, but you do know about what Brazil has done with bio fuels, right? That is not insignificant. Hydroelectric is also a MAJOR player.

484 b_Snark  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 6:12:17pm

re: #466 CapeCoddah

Ever heard of the Bakken formation?

I live right beside it.

Let me try to communicate here.

Humans are using up oil faster than the Earth can replenish it. This means the oil will eventually run out unless we reduce our use. That is common sense.

All of the reserves we have tapped to date have been relatively inexpensive to access. Each new reserve we find is more difficult to access and is therefore more expensive. Eventually the cost of pulling oil out of the ground will exceed the costs of using alternative sources of energy. That is common sense.

Burning oil, and other fossil fuels puts CO2 in the air that has been sequestered in the fuel itself. The biosphere maintains a rough equilibrium of CO2 through natural cycling. Fossil fuel CO2 is an addition to the CO2 cycling through the biosphere. This is common sense.

CO2 is the most studied gas in our atmosphere. The science says that CO2 captures and emits radiation at specific frequencies. Science also says that increasing the CO2 in the atmosphere will increase the amount of retained heat in those frequencies. An increase in temperature will increase costs to our economies.

When will using oil as the primary energy source become too expensive?

485 boxhead  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 6:17:30pm

re: #466 CapeCoddah

Ever heard of the Bakken formation?

Yes.

486 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 8:21:57pm

re: #481 Curt

Just stop talking bullshit, and conflating hydrocarbon usage with breathing, and we'd be cool.

487 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 9:08:34pm

re: #407 CapeCoddah

Actually, I am very well educated, by a well respected, ivy league liberal university.

I don't believe you

And I also don't believe your story about your gay friends that you tried to lay on us

488 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Jul 15, 2010 9:11:59pm

re: #487 WindUpBird

I don't believe you

And I also don't believe your story about your gay friends that you tried to lay on us

You know what I've noticed?

Actually, I am very well educated, by a well respected, ivy league liberal university.

People with such credentials don't ever seem to feel the need to announce it while arguing on anonymous internet forums.

Wonder why?/

489 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jul 16, 2010 4:21:41am

re: #487 WindUpBird

I don't believe you

And I also don't believe your story about your gay friends that you tried to lay on us

LOL, Like I really care what you believe!
I don't know how I will ever sleep again!!

490 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jul 16, 2010 4:24:27am

Hmmm. Maybe I should have Mr. Cape come on here and demand apologies from everyone who does not believe me, or has been, sniff, MEAN to me... Nah, too much pride for that, I am a grownup, I can take it! ROFLMAO!

491 curt  Sat, Jul 17, 2010 7:32:28am

re: #475 Obdicut

Sure. But his initial comment was

That was clearly mixing up the carbon cycle with the usage of hydrocarbons for fuel.

If the system is out of balance,re: #486 Obdicut

Just stop talking bullshit, and conflating hydrocarbon usage with breathing, and we'd be cool.

Well, if your idea of ensuring a valid test, is BS, because you don't understand it, then we can't be cool. even when allegro (who does work in the field) chimed in, you kept up the "you're talking nonsense" line.

You can't have a discussion, when one party declines to make sure they understand, and just declares it BS.


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