An Interview with the Lead Developer of Park51

US News • Views: 4,137

With all the absurd and deliberately distorted misinformation circulating around the Park51 project (the Bigot Brigade calls it the “Ground Zero mosque,” although it’s not actually at Ground Zero and will be a community center, not just a mosque), Aziz Poonawalla went to the source and interviewed the lead developer of the project, SoHo Properties CEO Sharif el-Gamal: Q&A with Sharif el-Gamal about Park 51, NYC.

Poonawalla asks about all of the hot button issues that are being exploited by the Robert Spencer-Pamela Geller mob; Imam Feisal’s past statements, why the community center is located near Ground Zero, funding sources for the project, and more. It’s a very interesting read.

Some of Imam Feisal’s past statements [1,2] have been used by critics to undermine the project’s credibility. Can Imam Feisal clarify his views on terrorism to reassure New Yorkers he understands the moral weight of the tragedy of 9-11?

Imam Feisal has been a champion of pluralism and tolerance. He fully understands the enormity of 9-11. In fact his own congregation was only blocks away from Ground Zero. He works very hard, day in and day out, to fight extremism and radicalism.

More to the point, this is going to be a community center. Park51 is not a political organization. We do not have a political agenda, and we will be open to all New Yorkers. What we do not have room for are extremist views and opinions. Radical and hateful agendas will have no place in our community center or in the mosque. We are building this center for New York City, because we’re New Yorkers. We’re Americans. We have families here and futures here.

On September 11, 2001, I went down to the site of the attacks and spent two days handing out water to first responders and other victims. Hundreds of Muslims died on that day. New Yorkers of all faiths and no faiths died together. There are also hundreds of Muslims in our police force and fire department and many Muslims who volunteered to help the injured and the hurt. One of my close friends, a Muslim and a New Yorker, headed down to Ground Zero after the attacks, and helped set up a triage.

She was buried in the rubble when the towers collapsed, but she was dug out, thank God, and went right back to work. We understand the horror of that day because we lived it. Terrorists attacked our city and our country, and terrorists have continued to threaten our city and our country. We’re proud of the many Muslims who have worked with our fellow Americans to keep our city and country safe.

Jump to bottom

252 comments
1 Tigger2005  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:14:05am

I’d rather have this guy in a foxhole next to me than any “Tea Partier.”

2 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:14:12am

That’s pretty straightforward.

Let the allegations of secret agendas commence.

3 Political Atheist  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:16:28am

I look forward to visiting the center my next trip to NYC, after its open. I intend to go inside and pay respects to their efforts. It is one of the best things that could happen, moving understanding and dialog forward.

4 Kronocide  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:19:20am

Great post, good read.

Because of that, we’re offering an open door. You know, I’d love it if Sarah Palin came to Park51 to see our community.

Paint me a cynic….

5 Lemon  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:20:19am

When this story first broke, I wasn’t quite sure what to make of it. After looking a little deeper into it, any concerns I had were alleviated.

The problem with far too many people today is they just look at the headline and take it as fact. All trust, no verify.

Under normal circumstances, that wouldn’t be a good thing, but with people like Breitbart on the right manipulating (or outright fabricating) stories for maximum shock value with little to no regard for the facts, it makes a position of blind acceptance even more dangerous.

As usual, thanks for looking into the issue, Charles.

6 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:21:26am

Pam and Bob: you have shamed yourselves for all eternity, and it will never go away.

7 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:22:35am
On September 11, 2001, I went down to the site of the attacks and spent two days handing out water to first responders and other victims. Hundreds of Muslims died on that day. New Yorkers of all faiths and no faiths died together. There are also hundreds of Muslims in our police force and fire department and many Muslims who volunteered to help the injured and the hurt. One of my close friends, a Muslim and a New Yorker, headed down to Ground Zero after the attacks, and helped set up a triage.

I take it as a sign of sincerity when those of no faith are included in this sort of statement.

8 Kronocide  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:25:15am

re: #7 wrenchwench

I take it as a sign of sincerity when those of no faith are included in this sort of statement.

That interview came across as very genuine and honest.

9 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:27:10am

Although I have no issue with the mosque or its location this is still a problem….
Ground Zero mosque leader hedges on Hamas

Asked if he agreed with the State Department’s assessment, Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf told WABC radio, “Look, I’m not a politician.

“The issue of terrorism is a very complex question,” he told interviewer Aaron Klein.

“There was an attempt in the ’90s to have the UN define what terrorism is and say who was a terrorist. There was no ability to get agreement on that.”

Asked again for his opinion on Hamas, an exasperated Rauf wouldn’t budge.

“I am a peace builder. I will not allow anybody to put me in a position where I am seen by any party in the world as an adversary or as an enemy,” Rauf said, insisting that he wants to see peace in Israel between Jews and Arabs.

Rauf also would not answer a question about Egypt’s outlawed Muslim Brotherhood.

“I have nothing to do with the Muslim Brotherhood. My father was never a member of the Muslim Brotherhood,” he said, disputing a rumor.

This isn’t really a specific problem in this project. Unfortunately pretty much every mosque will give tacit support to Hamas and that’s part of the larger problem. As long as they aren’t supplying funds or material support I guess this is the best that we can hope for.

10 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:28:26am

I still worry about this, but like I’ve said before: There is no evidence that Sharif el-Gamal or the Cordoba Initiative have done anything illegal. In the absence of such actions, the Islamic Center must be allowed to proceed.

12 prairiefire  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:30:18am
13 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:30:40am

re: #9 Killgore Trout

Although I have no issue with the mosque or its location this is still a problem…
Ground Zero mosque leader hedges on Hamas

This isn’t really a specific problem in this project. Unfortunately pretty much every mosque will give tacit support to Hamas and that’s part of the larger problem. As long as they aren’t supplying funds or material support I guess this is the best that we can hope for.

It’s a major problem. Even if they are otherwise moderate and peaceful, most Muslims are serious haters when it comes to Israel. and that is a very serious moral blind spot.

14 Locker  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:32:20am

This entire situation is just another result of right wing extremists trafficking in fear and hatred. They stoke up the fear as high as possible and then tell the rabid, mindless faithful who is responsible for their fear and how much they should be hated, despised and dehumanized.

Reality doesn’t matter. Truth doesn’t matter. Honesty doesn’t matter. It’s all counter-productive to the manipulation.

15 Kronocide  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:33:05am

re: #9 Killgore Trout

I would agree it’s a problem that will be exploited by the Usual Suspects. For me, he may not be any worse or better than Jeremiah Wright… but that doesn’t sink Park51.

16 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:33:05am

re: #9 Killgore Trout

Although I have no issue with the mosque or its location this is still a problem…
Ground Zero mosque leader hedges on Hamas

This isn’t really a specific problem in this project. Unfortunately pretty much every mosque will give tacit support to Hamas and that’s part of the larger problem. As long as they aren’t supplying funds or material support I guess this is the best that we can hope for.

The interviewer in that article is this guy:

Aaron Klein is a Jerusalem-based investigative reporter and author with a rolodex that includes world leaders, news makers and some of the world’s most deadly terrorists

He is senior reporter and Jerusalem bureau chief for Internet news giant WorldNetDaily.com, is a regular on WABC’s John Batchelor Show and is a columnist for the Jewish Press. Klein also is a frequent guest on Fox News Channel and on some of the top U.S. radio programs.

…so unless there’s another source for that, I’m unconcerned.

17 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:34:00am

re: #14 Locker

This entire situation is just another result of right wing extremists trafficking in fear and hatred. They stoke up the fear as high as possible and then tell the rabid, mindless faithful who is responsible for their fear and how much they should be hated, despised and dehumanized.

Reality doesn’t matter. Truth doesn’t matter. Honesty doesn’t matter. It’s all counter-productive to the manipulation.

The only things that matter to Pamz are vodka and air-kisses from idiots.

18 Political Atheist  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:35:38am

re: #9 Killgore Trout

That is a worrisome sign of the popularity of violent organizations in the larger Arab or Islamic community.

19 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:36:39am

re: #16 wrenchwench

Aaron Klein is a Jerusalem-based investigative reporter and author with a rolodex that includes world leaders, news makers and some of the world’s most deadly terrorists

He is senior reporter and Jerusalem bureau chief for Internet news giant WorldNetDaily.com, is a regular on WABC’s John Batchelor Show and is a columnist for the Jewish Press. Klein also is a frequent guest on Fox News Channel and on some of the top U.S. radio programs.


Ok, nice catch. I just saw it was an ABC station and thought it would be reliable. WND’s involvement certainly raises credibility issues.

20 manny  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:37:57am

“One of my close friends, a Muslim and a New Yorker, headed down to Ground Zero after the attacks, and helped set up a triage.

She was buried in the rubble when the towers collapsed, but she was dug out, thank God, and went right back to work.”


Be careful believing this guy, Charles. There are no people who fit this description. None. Not a single one. He may be retelling the story as he heard it, of course, but if so he is being lied to and being insufficiently skeptical himself. To reiterate: There were exactly zero people who were not in the trade centers or who were professional first responders who were buried in rubble.

21 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:38:50am

re: #20 manny

“One of my close friends, a Muslim and a New Yorker, headed down to Ground Zero after the attacks, and helped set up a triage.

She was buried in the rubble when the towers collapsed, but she was dug out, thank God, and went right back to work.”

Be careful believing this guy, Charles. There are no people who fit this description. None. Not a single one. He may be retelling the story as he heard it, of course, but if so he is being lied to and being insufficiently skeptical himself. To reiterate: There were exactly zero people who were not in the trade centers or who were professional first responders who were buried in rubble.

Do you have any proof for this assertion?

22 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:39:32am

A well-tailored fascist, Nick Griffin,
wanted so bad to meet the Queen. Spiffin’!
Tripped up by his falacies, he
can’t get into the palace. He’s
hurt, but his yobbos are riffin’.

Copyright © 2010 Cato the Elder.

23 prairiefire  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:41:22am

re: #20 manny

Do you mean buried in the rubble, and then recovered, alive? Alive being the key part.

24 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:41:56am

re: #16 wrenchwench

I hadn’t noticed that before - you’re right. The involvement of World Net Daily in the “Hamas support” angle definitely raises the question of whether this is a fair portrayal of his views.

25 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:49:19am

re: #24 Charles

I hadn’t noticed that before - you’re right. The involvement of World Net Daily in the “Hamas support” angle definitely raises the question of whether this is a fair portrayal of his views.

Must agree. Weird Nut Daily is not noted for balance on issues related to Islam. Or anything else for that matter.

26 DaddyLawBucks  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:51:00am

I don’t think you can equivocate on this. Either ever Muslim is a terrorist, and we should round them up and send them to camps in Arizona, or these people are AMERICANS ——
Personally, I go with they are Americans, and if they have a building permit, then let ‘em build. You can’t have it both ways.

27 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:53:57am

Newt Gingrich, the has-been, agrees:
we must see Islam on its knees.
He knows this because
Atlas Shrugs is the buzz.
His opinion is not worth a sneeze.

Copyright © 2010 Cato the Elder

28 manny  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:54:38am

re: #21 Charles

Do you have any proof for this assertion?

Exactly and precisely 20 people were buried by rubble and survived. You can meet most of them: usatoday.com

29 Varek Raith  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:55:44am

re: #26 daddylawbucks

I don’t think you can equivocate on this. Either ever Muslim is a terrorist, and we should round them up and send them to camps in Arizona, or these people are AMERICANS —-
Personally, I go with they are Americans, and if they have a building permit, then let ‘em build. You can’t have it both ways.

Indeed.
If all Muslims are terrorists, then all Christians are Fred Phelps.
See what I did there?
Broad brushing is bad.

30 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:55:55am

re: #26 daddylawbucks

I don’t think you can equivocate on this. Either ever Muslim is a terrorist, and we should round them up and send them to camps in Arizona, or these people are AMERICANS —-
Personally, I go with they are Americans, and if they have a building permit, then let ‘em build. You can’t have it both ways.

True, but you need to understand that if you put in that way, Shrieky and WND would choose the former.

31 AlexRogan  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:57:25am

re: #20 manny

“One of my close friends, a Muslim and a New Yorker, headed down to Ground Zero after the attacks, and helped set up a triage.

She was buried in the rubble when the towers collapsed, but she was dug out, thank God, and went right back to work.”

Be careful believing this guy, Charles. There are no people who fit this description. None. Not a single one. He may be retelling the story as he heard it, of course, but if so he is being lied to and being insufficiently skeptical himself. To reiterate: There were exactly zero people who were not in the trade centers or who were professional first responders who were buried in rubble.

Color me skeptical, but what made you come out of your posting slumber (no posts for at least the past year until now)? Where are your facts to back up your assertion that el-Gamal is not being truthful or is exaggerating in relating the story about his friend on 9/11?

What made you chime in at this moment?

32 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:57:29am

re: #28 manny

Exactly and precisely 20 people were buried by rubble and survived. You can meet most of them: [Link: www.usatoday.com…]

That article deals with people who were in the Towers or at the Ground Zero site. I’m pretty sure there were lots of people who were covered in debris and dust in the surrounding streets when the buildings fell. I don’t think this should be considered proof that the story above is not true.

33 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:57:49am

re: #28 manny

Exactly and precisely 20 people were buried by rubble and survived. You can meet most of them: [Link: www.usatoday.com…]

Good catch. If he’s lying to create sympathy, then that should be brought to light.

34 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:58:12am

re: #29 Varek Raith

Indeed.
If all Muslims are terrorists, then all Christians are Fred Phelps.
See what I did there?
Broad brushing is bad.

Christians stand up proud and say:
“We are all Fred Phelps today!”
Wait, hold the presses.
We never said that.
Phelps can take a shit in’s hat.

35 Varek Raith  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 10:58:59am

re: #34 Cato the Elder

Christians stand up proud and say:
“We are all Fred Phelps today!”
Wait, hold the presses.
We never said that.
Phelps can take a shit in’s hat.

Nice!

36 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:02:07am

re: #28 manny

Also, the article you posted only mentions 9 of these 20 people.

37 Lidane  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:03:04am

re: #32 Charles

That article deals with people who were in the Towers or at the Ground Zero site. I’m pretty sure there were lots of people who were covered in debris and dust in the surrounding streets when the buildings fell. I don’t think this should be considered proof that the story above is not true.

This is a good point.

Also, I’m thinking that a triage likely wouldn’t have been set up directly at the Ground Zero site, as all the professional first responders were heading into and around the Towers to try and get as many people out as possible. Wouldn’t they want any triage to be away from all that so they could shuffle people in that direction and away from where the police and fire departments were trying to do their jobs?

If his friend was running a triage near the site and got buried under rubble as the buildings fell, that’s entirely plausible. The rubble from those Towers was spread over quite a distance if I remember right. She wouldn’t have had to be in the Towers for any rubble to come down around her.

It’s just a thought, anyhow.

38 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:03:12am

Here’s the closest thing I can find to a reliable statement on terrorism….
West must act to end jihad: Imam

The US and the West must acknowledge the harm they have done to Muslims before terrorism can end, says an Islamic cleric invited to Sydney by Premier Bob Carr.

New York-based Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, who impressed Mr Carr at an international conference last year, arrives in Sydney today for two weeks of meetings and public talks.

Speaking from his New York mosque, Imam Feisal said the West had to understand the terrorists’ point of view.

In a move likely to cause controversy with church leaders, Imam Feisal said it was Christians who started mass attacks on civilians.

“The Islamic method of waging war is not to kill innocent civilians. But it was Christians in World War II who bombed civilians in Dresden and Hiroshima, neither of which were military targets.”

Imam Feisal said the bombing in Madrid had made his message more urgent. He said there was an endless supply of angry young Muslim rebels prepared to die for their cause and there was no sign of the attacks ending unless there was a fundamental change in the world.

Imam Feisal, who argues for a Western style of Islam that promotes democracy and tolerance, said there could be little progress until the US acknowledged backing dictators and the US President gave an “America Culpa” speech to the Muslim world.

Longtime lizards will recognize this as pretty standard Muslim thought. I think it’s faulty logic that the West can stop Islamic terrorism through any means, that’s going to have to come from within the Muslim community. Either way it’s not outrageous. It’s actually a more palatable opnion than those expressed by the Phelps family.

Here are some of his articles
Nothing terribly outrageous. Some of it quite moderate.

39 Kronocide  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:04:49am

Even if el-Gamal is somewhat exaggerating that his friend was actually buried by rubble as opposed to getting dust on her…. does that destroy the credibility of the entire interview?

40 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:05:39am

re: #38 Killgore Trout

I’m pretty skeptical about that article too. There’s only one actual quote from the Imam in there — everything else is a reporter’s paraphrase. That kind of thing makes me very suspicious. If he really said those things, why didn’t they quote his actual words?

41 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:07:22am

re: #36 Charles

Also, the article you posted only mentions 9 of these 20 people.

We have been getting a few comments lately from the Numerically Challenged. Could be going around.

42 Varek Raith  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:08:18am

re: #41 wrenchwench

We have been getting a few comments lately from the Numerically Challenged. Could be going around.

“2+2=CHICKEN!”

43 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:08:24am

re: #38 Killgore Trout

Here’s the closest thing I can find to a reliable statement on terrorism…
West must act to end jihad: Imam

Longtime lizards will recognize this as pretty standard Muslim thought. I think it’s faulty logic that the West can stop Islamic terrorism through any means, that’s going to have to come from within the Muslim community. Either way it’s not outrageous. It’s actually a more palatable opnion than those expressed by the Phelps family.

Here are some of his articles
Nothing terribly outrageous. Some of it quite moderate.

Not outrageous, but only because I’ve become so used to projection of that sort. He refuses to accept reality and so hands Gellar and Wheeler club with which to beat him. The ‘Wheeler’ is of course Scott Wheeler, whose fundraising emails get crazier every week.

44 manny  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:09:21am

re: #31 talon_262

Color me skeptical, but what made you come out of your posting slumber (no posts for at least the past year until now)? Where are your facts to back up your assertion that el-Gamal is not being truthful or is exaggerating in relating the story about his friend on 9/11?

What made you chime in at this moment?

Because I don’t have anything to add to most of the blog (for the record, I have no opposition to the project) but I do have a “thing” about people who lie about 9-11, whether they be troofers, fake victims, fake heroes or whoever.

There was no civilian triage prior to the collapse of the towers. There was no one not inside the towers who was buried in rubble and was rescued.

45 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:09:49am

re: #40 Charles

It’s entirely possible. Since the article is from 2004 it was before the smear campaign. Those opinions are pretty common so I wouldn’t be surprised if it was an actual reflection of his attitude. Of course I would be happier if he would just outright condemn Hamas like he does with al Qaeda. It’s a pretty clear line to me but I wouldn’t really expect him to.

46 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:12:05am

re: #45 Killgore Trout

It’s entirely possible. Since the article is from 2004 it was before the smear campaign. Those opinions are pretty common so I wouldn’t be surprised if it was an actual reflection of his attitude. Of course I would be happier if he would just outright condemn Hamas like he does with al Qaeda. It’s a pretty clear line to me but I wouldn’t really expect him to.

Me neither. There are a fair number of Muslims who have no problem with America but still see Israel as evil. I understand such a viewpoint, though I do not agree with it and firmly oppose it.

47 blueraven  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:15:13am

re: #44 manny

Because I don’t have anything to add to most of the blog (for the record, I have no opposition to the project) but I do have a “thing” about people who lie about 9-11, whether they be troofers, fake victims, fake heroes or whoever.

There was no civilian triage prior to the collapse of the towers. There was no one not inside the towers who was buried in rubble and was rescued.

You have shown no proof of that.

48 albusteve  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:16:40am

re: #46 Dark_Falcon

Me neither. There are a fair number of Muslims who have no problem with America but still see Israel as evil. I understand such a viewpoint, though I do not agree with it and firmly oppose it.

I oppose anybody that opposes Israel

49 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:17:05am

I’m currently engaged in serious research into Nick Griffin and the BNP.

First fruits: these people seriously believe that “white, indigenous Britons” are now second-class citizens.

Funny. I know lots of Brits, and am in constant email contact with them.

Not one of my other-side-the-pond peeps has said a peep about this.

I know we have Brits here, and I want to be fair.

Please send me your hot-off-Geller’s-mouth stories about anti-white discrimination.

You will be quoted, here, by me, without fear or favor, as a public service.

50 allegro  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:18:30am

re: #44 manny

Because I don’t have anything to add to most of the blog (for the record, I have no opposition to the project) but I do have a “thing” about people who lie about 9-11, whether they be troofers, fake victims, fake heroes or whoever.

51 Lidane  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:19:35am

re: #44 manny

There was no civilian triage prior to the collapse of the towers. There was no one not inside the towers who was buried in rubble and was rescued.

You can’t make definitive statements like that without documented proof. A lot of things happened on that day. What documented proof do you have that there was no civilian triage running near the Ground Zero site?

Also you keep focusing on people inside the Towers when a triage would have been OUTSIDE the Towers and away from the main Ground Zero site, and the rubble from the Towers covered quite a distance as it all came down.

52 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:19:52am

re: #44 manny

There was no civilian triage prior to the collapse of the towers. There was no one not inside the towers who was buried in rubble and was rescued.

Are you assuming she was a civilian? I didn’t see that in the interview.

53 allegro  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:20:44am

Hmm, what happened there?

My comment:

The article you cited to support your claim that the man was lying about his friend, is not supported by the article. It speaks only of the miracle of 20 people who were inside the towers at the time of the collapse being successfully rescued. It is entirely possible, and even likely, that those outside of the towers when they collapsed could have been buried under rubble. The article doesn’t say one way or another.

54 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:21:19am

re: #45 Killgore Trout

I don’t understand the direct quote either. Muslims hate America because of Hiroshima and Dresden?

55 Lidane  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:22:36am

re: #52 wrenchwench

Are you assuming she was a civilian? I didn’t see that in the interview.

Civilian or not isn’t the point. They’re trying to focus on the triage story to call the entire interview into question, and by extension the motives of the Park51 developers.

All I’ve seen so far are a bunch of definitive statements that the story is false, but no proof backing it up.

56 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:25:42am

re: #55 Lidane

Civilian or not isn’t the point. They’re trying to focus on the triage story to call the entire interview into question, and by extension the motives of the Park51 developers.

All I’ve seen so far are a bunch of definitive statements that the story is false, but no proof backing it up.

Also, Manny says

To reiterate: There were exactly zero people who were not in the trade centers or who were professional first responders who were buried in rubble.

And the article he links says

Two police officers, trapped in debris between the towers, barely survived both collapses.

Police officers are first responders, right? I could be parsing Manny’s statement wrong.

57 Four More Tears  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:27:53am

re: #48 albusteve

I oppose anybody that opposes Israel

I oppose Israel 100% on this issue…

Jurists say Arab’s rape conviction sets dangerous precedent

Yeah, it’s sleazy (assuming she asked and he really did lie), but criminal? Yikes.

58 McSpiff  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:28:17am

re: #56 wrenchwench

i read it as “No one was buried was NOT (inside building OR a first responder)”

59 iceweasel  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:30:30am

Driveby: apologies if this has already been mentioned:

the Right Online conference is taking place right now, all kinds of crazy hatching out— follow the #RO10 hash tag to track—twitter.com

may announcement:

rom July 23-24 AFP Foundation will host the third annual RightOnline Conference in Las Vegas, Nevada… .
RightOnline will bring together the foremost new media experts to train attendees on how to be influential grassroots activists and sway public policy debates through the use of online tools and strategies…

list of attendees:

Congressman Mike Pence
Congresswoman Michele Bachmann
Herman Cain, Nationally Syndicated Radio Host
Erick Erickson, RedState.com
Stephen Moore, Wall Street Journal
John Fund, Wall Street Journal
Ed Morrissey, HotAir.com
Guy Benson, Radio Host
Stephen Kruiser, Fox News Contributor
Phil Kerpen, AFP Foundation

All kinds of crazy. Competing with Netroots convention— it’s killing me that I’m moving this weekend.

Bonus crying from RSM about not being invited! link to google cache:

give my regards to Erik Telford, who made sure I wasn’t invited. Again.


Boohoo!

60 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:30:45am

re: #57 JasonA

Next? They’ll go after the guys who claim to be rich…

61 captdiggs  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:30:52am

re: #16 wrenchwench

Right, so you just write off a broadcast interview from Klein, who has done some amazing work in interviewing ( on tape) Hamas and Hezbollah leaders and numerous others.
More to the point, this was not a private interview subject to a writer’s interpretation. What the Imam said was broadcast on Klein’s radio program.
It would be very easy for the Imam to straighten out any “misunderstanding” by simply making a public statement condemning Hamas as a terrorist organization. Instead, he engaged in moral equivalency.

62 Four More Tears  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:31:45am

re: #60 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Next? They’ll go after the guys who claim to be rich…

Been there. They already a convicted a guy, who claimed to be a neurosurgeon, of fraud.

63 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:31:51am

re: #59 iceweasel

You finally escaping the confines of the US of A?

64 Four More Tears  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:32:48am

re: #63 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You finally escaping the confines of the US of A?

Isn’t she supposed to do that while a Republican is President?

/

65 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:33:16am

re: #62 JasonA

Whoops.

Said he was hung?

Turned out to be this guy?

66 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:33:35am

re: #64 JasonA

Nope. She’s doing it at the right time.
/

67 blueraven  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:34:07am

re: #58 McSpiff

i read it as “No one was buried was NOT (inside building OR a first responder)”

Yes, I did too. However this story is about people who survived the initial collapse of the towers. It is not about people who may have been on the outside and got buried, or almost buried by the debris.

Surely there were medical personnel there setting up triage by the time the collapse occurred. This was several hours after the planes flew into the buildings, right?

68 webevintage  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:34:11am

OT:
New Twitter hash tag #ifandrewbreitbarteditedit

hi-larity

69 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:34:16am

re: #13 Dark_Falcon

It’s a major problem. Even if they are otherwise moderate and peaceful, most Muslims are serious haters when it comes to Israel. and that is a very serious moral blind spot.

At the same time, I know left-leaning rabbis who would give almost the same dodgy answer about Hamas. Do I agree with them? No. Do I want to bang my head against the table? Yes. Do I consider them terrorist threats? Not really.

70 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:34:41am

OK, here we have video of Feisal Abdul Rauf explaining Muslim grievances. Once again it’s pretty standard stuff. I don’t agree with him (he’s making excuses and ignoring a lot of history) but it’s nothing that should revoke his Constitutional rights.

71 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:35:48am

re: #61 captdiggs

Right, so you just write off a broadcast interview from Klein, who has done some amazing work in interviewing ( on tape) Hamas and Hezbollah leaders and numerous others.
More to the point, this was not a private interview subject to a writer’s interpretation. What the Imam said was broadcast on Klein’s radio program.
It would be very easy for the Imam to straighten out any “misunderstanding” by simply making a public statement condemning Hamas as a terrorist organization. Instead, he engaged in moral equivalency.

Correct. If it comes from Aaron Klein or World Nut Daily, I write it off. If you don’t, I write you off too. The Imam has no responsibility to correct everything said by every Muslim-bashing wingnut.

72 iceweasel  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:35:52am

re: #63 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You finally escaping the confines of the US of A?

I wouldn’t put it that way. Just extending the base of our operations!
International Progressive Alliance Enters Final Stage

Definitely approaching terminal velocity though, leaving wed. It’s killing me to leave nyc actually. :( We’ll be back!

73 Four More Tears  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:36:34am

re: #72 iceweasel

I wouldn’t put it that way. Just extending the base of our operations!
International Progressive Alliance Enters Final Stage

Definitely approaching terminal velocity though, leaving wed. It’s killing me to leave nyc actually. :( We’ll be back!

You’re going to miss NY soooo much.

74 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:36:34am

re: #69 SanFranciscoZionist

At the same time, I know left-leaning rabbis who would give almost the same dodgy answer about Hamas. Do I agree with them? No. Do I want to bang my head against the table? Yes. Do I consider them terrorist threats? Not really.

Very true. The comments from DKOS and Huffpo are far more extreme than what this imam is saying.

75 McSpiff  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:37:18am

re: #67 blueraven

Yes, I did too. However this story is about people who survived the initial collapse of the towers. It is not about people who may have been on the outside and got buried, or almost buried by the debris.

Surely there were medical personnel there setting up triage by the time the collapse occurred. This was several hours after the planes flew into the buildings, right?

O I agree 100%

76 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:37:19am

re: #72 iceweasel

I wouldn’t put it that way. Just extending the base of our operations!
International Progressive Alliance Enters Final Stage

Definitely approaching terminal velocity though, leaving wed. It’s killing me to leave nyc actually. :( We’ll be back!

I’ll be waiting.

77 iceweasel  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:38:16am

re: #73 JasonA

You’re going to miss NY sooo much.

It’s already killing me. We’re coming back for sure, no question, to live in NYC again. Problem is it won’t be for at least three years minimum.

I’m experiencing all kinds of horrible homesickness in advance, but I miss my laddie more!!!!!!!!! YAY!

78 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:38:37am

I have never had any real problem with this project. And I believe that the people building this center HAVE to know that their building will be under intense scrutiny from the community, so if they plan any funny business, it will probably be noticed quickly. The fact thet they still want to build it under these circumstances means they probably will be squaky clean. And if it turns out they are not, they’ll have to face the fallout. And BTW, I don’t doubt for a second that the FBI is keeping a close eye on the whole thing.

79 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:38:55am

re: #58 McSpiff

i read it as “No one was buried was NOT (inside building OR a first responder)”

I’m having trouble parsing that, too. Back to fixing bikes.

80 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:41:20am

re: #78 _RememberTonyC

I had a serious problem with it to start. Of course, I thought it was with a Minaret five feet from the site.

Hell, can’t see it from Ground Zero, can’t see ground zero from it.

Whatever…

81 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:42:18am

re: #77 iceweasel

Problem is it won’t be for at least three years minimum.

Back to President Palin? How sweet.

82 Four More Tears  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:42:51am

re: #80 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I had a serious problem with it to start. Of course, I thought it was with a Minaret five feet from the site.

Hell, can’t see it from Ground Zero, can’t see ground zero from it.

Whatever…

Haven’t you heard? They’ll be blasting the morning prayer call at 5am…

83 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:44:04am

re: #77 iceweasel

It’s already killing me. We’re coming back for sure, no question, to live in NYC again. Problem is it won’t be for at least three years minimum.

I’m experiencing all kinds of horrible homesickness in advance, but I miss my laddie more!!! YAY!

Why so long?

84 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:45:40am

re: #82 JasonA

Poor garbage men.

Who else is up to hear it?

85 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:45:52am

re: #83 Dark_Falcon

Why so long?

Jimmah is from District 9, and it will take him at least three years to make Ice back into a Merkin.

86 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:45:58am

re: #80 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I had a serious problem with it to start. Of course, I thought it was with a Minaret five feet from the site.

Hell, can’t see it from Ground Zero, can’t see ground zero from it.

Whatever…

one would hope that the center becomes an example of interfaith tolerance with functions that are inclusive of all people of goodwill. is that somewhat idealistic? yes, but it is a worthy goal. I guess time will tell ….

87 Four More Tears  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:45:58am

Heh. One of the blurbs from Pamz book:


“This book is a chilling analysis of how the policy of President Barack Obama is chipping away at the very foundation of America’s leading role in the world. It exposes his philosophy of near universal ‘moral equivalency’: a philosophy that is a dead ringer for the cultural relativism that has been poisoning Europe for the past decades. America is the last man standing and it is vital that the people of Europe adopt the attitude of proud American citizens and learn that it is not shameful to be proud of one’s heritage. This book is incredibly fascinating and at the same time holds a deeply disturbing message we should all take to heart.”

—Geert Wilders, Dutch MP

88 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:46:29am

re: #57 JasonA

I oppose Israel 100% on this issue…

Jurists say Arab’s rape conviction sets dangerous precedent

Yeah, it’s sleazy (assuming she asked and he really did lie), but criminal? Yikes.

So far I haven’t seen anything that suggests what he did was criminal. Shitty, yes, but not criminal.

89 Four More Tears  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:46:47am

re: #85 Cato the Elder

Now that’s something you could be accused of spoiling.

90 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:47:05am

re: #62 JasonA

Been there. They already a convicted a guy, who claimed to be a neurosurgeon, of fraud.

Did they convict him of rape, though?

91 Four More Tears  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:48:15am

re: #88 SanFranciscoZionist

So far I haven’t seen anything that suggests what he did was criminal. Shitty, yes, but not criminal.

Even then, he claims he never pretended to be Jewish. bbc.co.uk

92 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:49:04am

re: #71 wrenchwench

Correct. If it comes from Aaron Klein or World Nut Daily, I write it off. If you don’t, I write you off too. The Imam has no responsibility time to correct everything said by every Muslim-bashing wingnut.

It would be a long task.

93 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:50:26am

re: #91 JasonA

“Funny. He doesn’t look Druish.”

94 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:51:04am

re: #65 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Damn. I thought that was hysterical.

95 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:51:25am

re: #82 JasonA

Haven’t you heard? They’ll be blasting the morning prayer call at 5am…

We used to have a group of Arab college kids next door to us who would develop a sudden bout of piety during Ramadan. (The rest of the year it was beer, pizza, and weird hours).

I’d be up in the wee small hours of the morning, fixing breakfast and listening to the them thunk around, eating and praying. It was sort of endearing, once I realized what was going on.

96 iceweasel  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:51:38am

re: #83 Dark_Falcon

Why so long?

Mandatory that my main residence be in the UK for 2 years to be granted Indefinite Leave to Remain (permanent visa), a third year required for citizenship process if I decide to obtain that, which would mean we could both live and work anywhere in the EU at all. thanks for asking!
(sorry, didnt mean to derail thread, just popped in with the other news in case people want to follow the right online stuff)

97 Four More Tears  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:52:01am

re: #90 SanFranciscoZionist

Did they convict him of rape, though?

Good point. No, it was just fraud as far as I can tell. Still, if these qualifications are that important to a woman before having a romp in the hay I think the burden’s on them to confirm such things. Either that or get in writing for Christ’s sake.

98 Racer X  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:53:09am

re: #94 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Damn. I thought that was hysterical.

Not as funny as “President Palin”.

That is funny.

*shudders*

President Palin.

Let that one sink in for a moment.

99 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:54:31am

re: #96 iceweasel

Mandatory that my main residence be in the UK for 2 years to be granted Indefinite Leave to Remain (permanent visa), a third year required for citizenship process if I decide to obtain that, which would mean we could both live and work anywhere in the EU at all. thanks for asking!
(sorry, didnt mean to derail thread, just popped in with the other news in case people want to follow the right online stuff)

Thanks for explaining that, Ice. I’d say good luck, but you two hardly need it, mad for each other as you are.

100 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:54:59am

re: #97 JasonA

Good point. No, it was just fraud as far as I can tell. Still, if these qualifications are that important to a woman before having a romp in the hay I think the burden’s on them to confirm such things. Either that or get in writing for Christ’s sake.

Yeah. He behaved poorly, but I can’t see a real justification for the court’s decision. And it’s lousy hasbara, which the court doesn’t need to worry about, but I, a pro-Israel activist, always do.

101 manny  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:55:37am

re: #58 McSpiff

i read it as “No one was buried was NOT (inside building OR a first responder)”

Doh! Yeah, brain fart error on my part. Everyone who was “buried” and who was rescued alive was a first responder or someone who was in the towers.

As to other posts: Yes, there was rubble and debris everywhere — you don’t have to point that out to me, thanks. But no one was buried in it who had to be rescued.

And those questioning my motive are free to go jump in a lake. I do not oppose the project, I oppose 9-11 liars.

USA Today described themselves as taking a “comprehensive look at who survived the collapse and why.” That’s it — that’s everyone who was buried.

I’ve presented presumptive proof — certainly more proof than was necessary to lead Charles to claim that Imam Feisal was an Islamic supremacist who wanted to bring Sharia law to the west. Believe what you want.

102 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:55:53am

re: #98 Racer X

Not as funny as “President Palin”.

That is funny.

*shudders*

President Palin.

Let that one sink in for a moment.

Here’s an interactive website to help you imagine.

103 Four More Tears  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:56:18am

re: #100 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah. He behaved poorly, but I can’t see a real justification for the court’s decision. And it’s lousy hasbara, which the court doesn’t need to worry about, but I, a pro-Israel activist, always do.

You do, but you’re reasonable to admit that they were wrong in this case. That counts for something.

104 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:56:21am

re: #97 JasonA

I just don’t feel it actually winds up protecting women at all. It doesn’t, to me, have anything to do with consent. You consent to the person, not to the bundle of attributes that describe them. It’s kind of icky-feeling if you define it the other way around. It dehumanizes it.

105 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:57:36am

re: #101 manny

I’ve presented presumptive proof — certainly more proof than was necessary to lead Charles to claim that Imam Feisal was an Islamic supremacist who wanted to bring Sharia law to the west. Believe what you want.

Huh?

106 iceweasel  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:58:23am

re: #49 Cato the Elder

I’m currently engaged in serious research into Nick Griffin and the BNP.

First fruits: these people seriously believe that “white, indigenous Britons” are now second-class citizens.

Funny. I know lots of Brits, and am in constant email contact with them.

Not one of my other-side-the-pond peeps has said a peep about this.

I know we have Brits here, and I want to be fair.

Please send me your hot-off-Geller’s-mouth stories about anti-white discrimination.

You will be quoted, here, by me, without fear or favor, as a public service.

Jimmah has a page up about Nick Griffin. BTW, there’s shitloads of BNP type stuff happening in re UK immigration laws. In june they (the UK border agency/immigration) made it mandatory that a british citizen’s spouse can’t enter the country without speaking english. That’s some hardcore wingnuttery/nationalism right there— and it isn’t just the BNP.
These peeps will be talking lots about what’s happening there, i assure you.

107 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:59:15am

re: #99 Dark_Falcon

Thanks for explaining that, Ice. I’d say good luck, but you two hardly need it, made for each other as you are.

PIMF, though the original still works.

108 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:59:18am

re: #103 JasonA

You do, but you’re reasonable to admit that they were wrong in this case. That counts for something.

I have two activist hats…one pro-Israel, and the other being a gadfly against all sorts of things IN Israel. It means that I can be agitated most of the time.

109 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:59:34am

re: #102 SanFranciscoZionist

That’s funny as hell.

110 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:59:52am

re: #101 manny

I’ve presented presumptive proof — certainly more proof than was necessary to lead Charles to claim that Imam Feisal was an Islamic supremacist who wanted to bring Sharia law to the west. Believe what you want.

Except for this part:

36 Charles Sat, Jul 24, 2010 11:02:07am replyquote

re: #28 manny

Also, the article you posted only mentions 9 of these 20 people.

111 webevintage  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:03:11pm

If anyone is interested Elisabeth Warren is speaking at netroots nation now:
ustream.tv

112 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:04:16pm

re: #106 iceweasel

Jimmah has a page up about Nick Griffin. BTW, there’s shitloads of BNP type stuff happening in re UK immigration laws. In june they (the UK border agency/immigration) made it mandatory that a british citizen’s spouse can’t enter the country without speaking english. That’s some hardcore wingnuttery/nationalism right there— and it isn’t just the BNP.
These peeps will be talking lots about what’s happening there, i assure you.

I actually agree with that one. It makes it somewhat harder to simply bring a wife in from Pakistan and then isolate her effectively. It also serves notice that those unwilling to assimilate are unwelcome. Frankly, I think that if the US does not have does not have such a rule, it should implement one.

113 blueraven  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:07:47pm

re: #101 manny

USA Today described themselves as taking a “comprehensive look at who survived the collapse and why.” That’s it — that’s everyone who was buried.

Survived the collapse…meaning those inside the towers.

114 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:10:55pm

It’s a warm and fuzzy interview. Past comments by Imam Feisal were not addressed, even adequately. Time will tell if funding sources are revealed to the public.

115 kirkspencer  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:12:14pm

Re the question about people outside the towers being buried, I submit the following three -part blog report. [part 1] [part 2] [conclusion]. They allege to be the tale of Major Thane J. Thompson, given to the blogger who goes by the name Sean Linnane. For the short version, Major Thompson was outside, and as a former combat medic he went forward to help. When the first tower collapsed it threw a lot of debris which, among other things, closed off the parking garage in which he and others took shelter. They found and cleared an exit.

Not quite the same story, yet I think it gives insight. When that tower went down there was a very large debris cloud that buried everyone who couldn’t run fast enough. There were hasty triage and aid stations set up before the first collapse, and more between the first and second. Concentrating only on the people in and immediately adjacent to the two towers misses a lot of people who were involved.

116 iceweasel  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:17:03pm

re: #112 Dark_Falcon

I actually agree with that one. It makes it somewhat harder to simply bring a wife in from Pakistan and then isolate her effectively. It also serves notice that those unwilling to assimilate are unwelcome. Frankly, I think that if the US does not have does not have such a rule, it should implement one.

No, it’s a horrible idea—they already have extensive standards in place that are designed to weed out domestic abuse, arranged marriages, all of that. The rationale you gave is the *nice* one, but the *real* one is more pandering to the BNP/nationalist types. Consider, afaik the legislation will ALSO apply to a returning UK citizen who wants to bring his non-english speaking wife with whom he has been living and has been married to for years. (there’s some exceptions i think when they have children) — havent had time to dig into it.

the UK already makes you take a really rather bizarre Life in the UK knowledge test to get citizenship. It isn’t like the US tests for citizenship— you have to know stuff like ‘where is the scouse dialect spoken?’ — that’s a direct effect of BNP/nationalistic/’protect our culture!1!’ stuff.
Anyway sorry this is fast— i do have some extensive pages planned on this and how US immigration law differs but don’t have sufficient time now. Google the”life in the uk” test and see the sample questions and compare to the us citizenship questions. Bad stuff in the UK.

117 kirkspencer  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:20:24pm

re: #100 SanFranciscoZionist

I ran across something recently. Seems this is not a completely ground-breaking issue in Israel. There have been previous rape convictions for sex on fraudulent inducement - claims of wealth or ability. See this Haaretz article, but the critical paragraph from it reads:

In 2008, the High Court of Justice set a precedent on rape by deception, rejecting an appeal of the rape conviction by Zvi Sleiman, who impersonated a senior official in the Housing Ministry whose wife worked in the National Insurance Institute. Sleiman told women he would get them an apartment and increased NII payments if they would sleep with him.
118 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:25:23pm

re: #117 kirkspencer

I ran across something recently. Seems this is not a completely ground-breaking issue in Israel. There have been previous rape convictions for sex on fraudulent inducement - claims of wealth or ability. See this Haaretz article, but the critical paragraph from it reads:

Interesting parallel. I’m still planning to do more reading on this…any day now.

119 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:26:24pm

OK, this will be funnier to Lizards with some Hebrew reading ability, but this site made me laugh and laugh, so I present:

Bad Hebrew Tattoos

120 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:29:12pm

re: #117 kirkspencer


Thank you. Although I think the law is terrible, at least the law itself isn’t based on racism, but generally fraudulent misrepresentation.

121 Racer X  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:29:28pm

re: #102 SanFranciscoZionist

Here’s an interactive website to help you imagine.

Oh jeez that is hysterical!

122 The Shadow Do  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:31:07pm

re: #38 Killgore Trout

Imam Feisal said the bombing in Madrid had made his message more urgent. He said there was an endless supply of angry young Muslim rebels prepared to die for their cause and there was no sign of the attacks ending unless there was a fundamental change in the world.

Imam Feisal, who argues for a Western style of Islam that promotes democracy and tolerance, said there could be little progress until the US acknowledged backing dictators and the US President gave an “America Culpa” speech to the Muslim world.

This is the thing that remains a big bur under my saddle. This is 180 degrees off the mark. It is impossible for Western contrition to affect opinion so long as Muslims of all stripes refuse to take ownership of the cancer that is manifested in terrorism but instead make excuses for Hamas et al. The sea change needed starts there, not with a string of Obama mea culpas.

and this statement:

“The Islamic method of waging war is not to kill innocent civilians. But it was Christians in World War II who bombed civilians in Dresden and Hiroshima, neither of which were military targets.”

has nothing to do with the price of pears in Paraguay.

And it is a political position too, in spite of the good Imam’s non-political posturing.

I don’t give a rip if they build a mosque just cut the crap please.

123 Lidane  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:32:50pm

re: #101 manny

I’ve presented presumptive proof

So in other words, you’ve presented nothing of value. Presumptive evidence isn’t worth much without more substantial proof of what you’re claiming.

124 Racer X  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:33:08pm

re: #122 The Shadow Do


I don’t give a rip if they build a mosque just cut the crap please.

Well said.

125 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:34:31pm

re: #122 The Shadow Do

has nothing to do with the price of pears in Paraguay.

And it is a political position too, in spite of the good Imam’s non-political posturing.

I don’t give a rip if they build a mosque just cut the crap please.

And its not true that Dresden and Hiroshima were not military targets. Both had substantial military supporting industries and by the standards in place during WWII both were valid targets.

126 iceweasel  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:35:16pm

re: #117 kirkspencer

I ran across something recently. Seems this is not a completely ground-breaking issue in Israel. There have been previous rape convictions for sex on fraudulent inducement - claims of wealth or ability. See this Haaretz article, but the critical paragraph from it reads:

That sounds like straight up extortion though, not romantic deception (or whatever we want to call it)— sort of like “have sex with me and I’ll give you a job”. “I’m married to a housing official, have sex with me and I’ll get you such and such”.

in that case it’s like they were consenting in the sense of exchanging sex for services. In this other one, it does look creepy, like we’re saying any and all lies told to get someone into bed are actionable. I don’t know— looks like there is a difference here.

127 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:37:04pm

So, what if God were to come down from on high and add an eleventh commandment?

“Thou shalt not be a fucking racist.”

I’m betting that would not be included in courthouse tablets.

128 kirkspencer  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:37:53pm

re: #126 iceweasel

Different nation, different laws.

As the article notes, most of the precedence is for fraud - as in, any lies told to get someone into bed are actionable, but they’re fraud, not rape. It’s the rape attachment that bothers Israeli jurists (according to Haaretz, apply appropriate grains of salt, etc.)

129 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:38:30pm

re: #106 iceweasel

Jimmah has a page up about Nick Griffin. BTW, there’s shitloads of BNP type stuff happening in re UK immigration laws. In june they (the UK border agency/immigration) made it mandatory that a british citizen’s spouse can’t enter the country without speaking english. That’s some hardcore wingnuttery/nationalism right there— and it isn’t just the BNP.
These peeps will be talking lots about what’s happening there, i assure you.

Does that apply to Brits who buy non-English-speaking Ukrainian grrrls off the web?

130 iceweasel  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:39:28pm

re: #128 kirkspencer

Different nation, different laws.

As the article notes, most of the precedence is for fraud - as in, any lies told to get someone into bed are actionable, but they’re fraud, not rape. It’s the rape attachment that bothers Israeli jurists (according to Haaretz, apply appropriate grains of salt, etc.)

Sorry, wasn’t clear— the rape attachment is what bothers me too. I really shouldn’t opine on this at all til I can get into it more deeply (i saved your links and others, thanks for them)

131 iceweasel  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:40:47pm

re: #129 Cato the Elder

Does that apply to Brits who buy non-English-speaking Ukrainian grrrls off the web?

Yep! so far as i know. as of last month anyway sometime. June 10? somethign like that.

132 kirkspencer  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:41:34pm

re: #130 iceweasel

Ah. And you’re welcome.

133 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:42:09pm

re: #131 iceweasel

Yep! so far as i know. as of last month anyway sometime. June 10? somethign like that.

Damn. I’m so glad to live in Baltimore, where the cute foreign grad-grrrls run around talking whatever lingo they please!

134 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:44:14pm

re: #106 iceweasel

Goddamn! It’s a good thing they haven’t gotten around to demanding that foreign brides of Scots must speaka tah Gaelic, or you’d be screwed.

135 iceweasel  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:46:07pm

re: #134 Cato the Elder

Goddamn! It’s a good thing they haven’t gotten around to demanding that foreign brides of Scots must speaka tah Gaelic, or you’d be screwed.

Cushla machree? Manim asthee hu? Cead mile fuck-ye?

Manim asthee hu is prolly the best way to say I love you in any language. ;)

136 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:47:14pm

re: #13 Dark_Falcon

It’s a major problem. Even if they are otherwise moderate and peaceful, most Muslims are serious haters when it comes to Israel. and that is a very serious moral blind spot.

But few give a damn about this.

137 Varek Raith  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:47:48pm

re: #135 iceweasel

Cushla machree? Manim asthee hu? Cead mile fuck-ye?

Manim asthee hu is prolly the best way to say I love you in any language. ;)

K’pla!

138 AlexRogan  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:52:15pm

re: #101 manny

And those questioning my motive are free to go jump in a lake. I do not oppose the project, I oppose 9-11 liars.

With that, I cordially invite you to piss off.

USA Today described themselves as taking a “comprehensive look at who survived the collapse and why.” That’s it — that’s everyone who was buried.

Your “proof” consists of a lone USA Today story that written about people who survived the WTC inside the buildings, not outside of them

I’ve presented presumptive proof — certainly more proof than was necessary to lead Charles to claim that Imam Feisal was an Islamic supremacist who wanted to bring Sharia law to the west. Believe what you want.

Huh? You’re full of shit…

139 blueraven  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:53:28pm

re: #136 eclectic infidel

Building this center or not has no bearing on that. Nothing will change in that regard because of this building.

140 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:53:34pm

re: #100 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah. He behaved poorly, but I can’t see a real justification for the court’s decision. And it’s lousy hasbara, which the court doesn’t need to worry about, but I, a pro-Israel activist, always do.

the precedent was set in 2008 by the Israeli SCOTUS, i think. Zvi Sleiman, right?

141 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:54:02pm

re: #104 Obdicut

I just don’t feel it actually winds up protecting women at all. It doesn’t, to me, have anything to do with consent. You consent to the person, not to the bundle of attributes that describe them. It’s kind of icky-feeling if you define it the other way around. It dehumanizes it.

agree completely

142 AlexRogan  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:56:21pm

re: #138 talon_262

Whoops, screwed the pooch on formatting that post…sorry.

143 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:56:50pm

re: #101 manny

boo. feel free to only pop up to post once per year…that’s why there are no ‘minimum posting requirements’ in the LGF Commandments…but don’t expect us to trust you without a larger-than-average cache of data to back up such a claim. we just don’t know you…i don’t mean that in a good way or a bad way…post as often or infrequently as you want…but i think many of us could do without the whining after an easily understandable request for more links.

rocket surgery, this isn’t…

144 The Shadow Do  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:58:25pm

2 US Navy service members missing in Afghanistan
Bad shit, a fate worse than death.

145 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:58:29pm

re: #117 kirkspencer

I ran across something recently. Seems this is not a completely ground-breaking issue in Israel. There have been previous rape convictions for sex on fraudulent inducement - claims of wealth or ability. See this Haaretz article, but the critical paragraph from it reads:

dang. gmta.

146 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 12:58:57pm

re: #136 eclectic infidel

But few give a damn about this.

But I’m one of them.

147 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:00:00pm

re: #122 The Shadow Do

And again — you’re getting upset about something that is not a direct quote, but a paraphrase by a reporter.

148 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:03:15pm

re: #143 Aceofwhat?

boo. feel free to only pop up to post once per year…that’s why there are no ‘minimum posting requirements’ in the LGF Commandments…but don’t expect us to trust you without a larger-than-average cache of data to back up such a claim. we just don’t know you…i don’t mean that in a good way or a bad way…post as often or infrequently as you want…but i think many of us could do without the whining after an easily understandable request for more links.

rocket surgery, this isn’t…

Agreed. LGF is skeptical when it comes to those who mostly lurk. Its not that they’re not welcome to do that, but you have to be a regular in order to avoid having your motives questioned.

149 The Shadow Do  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:03:31pm

re: #147 Charles

And again — you’re getting upset about something that is not a direct quote, but a paraphrase by a reporter.

Bur removed…for now

150 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:06:20pm

The funniest thing on this thread so far:

The word “yobbos” is accepted without protest as properly spelled.

Goddamn!

Congratulations, yobbos, you’ve made the dictionary.

151 McSpiff  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:06:51pm

re: #148 Dark_Falcon

Heh I’ve seen plenty of regulars have their motives questioned. Hell, I’ve done it. Just par for the course.

152 prairiefire  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:11:36pm

re: #102 SanFranciscoZionist

Here’s an interactive website to help you imagine.

There are pumping oil wells outside and a leaky ceiling inside.

153 Varek Raith  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:13:07pm

re: #152 prairiefire

There are pumping oil wells outside and a leaky ceiling inside.

LOL@the dinosaur walking past the window.

154 Nimed  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:14:16pm

re: #151 McSpiff

Heh I’ve seen plenty of regulars have their motives questioned. Hell, I’ve done it. Just par for the course.

I find it curious that you have chosen precisely this thread to make this observation. But keep playing that little game of yours…
/

155 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:15:28pm

re: #151 McSpiff

Heh I’ve seen plenty of regulars have their motives questioned. Hell, I’ve done it. Just par for the course.

So your balls are no longer in a knot?

156 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:16:24pm

re: #152 prairiefire

There are pumping oil wells outside and a leaky ceiling inside.

Try clicking on the red phone.

Hell, try clicking on everything.

157 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:16:56pm

re: #153 Varek Raith

LOL@the dinosaur walking past the window.

and the light switch was a nice touch

158 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:17:35pm

re: #154 Nimed

I find it curious that you have chosen precisely this thread to make this observation. But keep playing that little game of yours…
/

*chortle*

159 captdiggs  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:17:37pm

re: #71 wrenchwench

Correct. If it comes from Aaron Klein or World Nut Daily, I write it off. If you don’t, I write you off too. The Imam has no responsibility to correct everything said by every Muslim-bashing wingnut.

I see, so this is some sort of reverse phobia.
The Imam is not to be questioned, but Klein is to be dismissed out of hand, even though the Imam said it in a recorded broadcast.
That’s a very closed minded way of evaluating information.

Some of that sort of thinking led to the massacre at Ft Hood.
Everyone was afraid of looking “islamophobic”…so a lot of people died.

160 Varek Raith  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:20:04pm

re: #159 captdiggs

I see, so this is some sort of reverse phobia.
The Imam is not to be questioned, but Klein is to be dismissed out of hand, even though the Imam said it in a recorded broadcast.
That’s a very closed minded way of evaluating information.

Some of that sort of thinking led to the massacre at Ft Hood.
Everyone was afraid of looking “islamophobic”…so a lot of people died.


Okely dokely

Aaron Klein is a NY Times bestselling author, [1] a Middle East correspondent, head of the Jerusalem bureau for WorldNetDaily (WND),[1] a columnist for The Jewish Press, and a radio talk show host on WABC (AM).[2] His WND articles have been republished on Ynetnews and in The New York Sun.[3] In addition to his own program, Klein appears regularly on John Batchelor’s radio talk show as well as other radio programs and has written three books.

161 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:21:02pm

LOL.

New Palin baby names:

Carport
Cashew
Rake
Purple

Fecundity has it’s privileges.

162 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:21:19pm

re: #127 Cato the Elder

So, what if God were to come down from on high and add an eleventh commandment?

“Thou shalt not be a fucking racist.”

I’m betting that would not be included in courthouse tablets.

I always thought that Christians at least had that bit covered with the story of the Good Samaritan. Seems to be ignored in favor of the Curse of Ham.

163 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:21:22pm

re: #159 captdiggs

I see, so this is some sort of reverse phobia.
The Imam is not to be questioned, but Klein is to be dismissed out of hand, even though the Imam said it in a recorded broadcast.
That’s a very closed minded way of evaluating information.

Some of that sort of thinking led to the massacre at Ft Hood.
Everyone was afraid of looking “islamophobic”…so a lot of people died.

Exactly wrong this time. This is not a phobia, this is not closed-mindedness. This is an analysis of a source of information, conducted over a period of years.

WND = FAIL.

Aaron Klein = FAIL.

I doubt there is anything you could link to demonstrate either of them is a reliable source of information.

164 blueraven  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:21:51pm

re: #159 captdiggs

I see, so this is some sort of reverse phobia.
The Imam is not to be questioned, but Klein is to be dismissed out of hand, even though the Imam said it in a recorded broadcast.
That’s a very closed minded way of evaluating information.

Some of that sort of thinking led to the massacre at Ft Hood.
Everyone was afraid of looking “islamophobic”…so a lot of people died.

Nobody said that. But one should always consider the source. I think Mr Breitbart proved that this week.

165 ClaudeMonet  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:24:15pm

re: #78 _RememberTonyC

I have never had any real problem with this project. And I believe that the people building this center HAVE to know that their building will be under intense scrutiny from the community, so if they plan any funny business, it will probably be noticed quickly. The fact thet they still want to build it under these circumstances means they probably will be squaky clean. And if it turns out they are not, they’ll have to face the fallout. And BTW, I don’t doubt for a second that the FBI is keeping a close eye on the whole thing.

If they don’t already, the FBI will have cameras recording all the comings and goings—and I can’t blame them for it. I also have little doubt that the more radical Muslims should know better than to meet there (but may do it anyway, as sometimes they’re more zealous than smart).

And if the civil liberties crowd want to get involved, let ‘em. “Look, it wasn’t a bunch of Swedish Lutherans who took down the Twin Towers. If it had been, we’d be watching Swedes. It was Muslims, so we watch Muslims.”

166 captdiggs  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:24:27pm

re: #160 Varek Raith

Attacking the messenger as most are doing here is a poor way to make an argument.
It usually means there is no defense.

For the third time now—-the imam made his statements in a public radio broadcast.
I really do not care who the interviewer was.

167 blueraven  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:25:42pm

re: #166 captdiggs

Attacking the messenger as most are doing here is a poor way to make an argument.
It usually means there is no defense.

For the third time now—-the imam made his statements in a public radio broadcast.
I really do not care who the interviewer was.

Can you link to the audio, or a transcript?

168 kirkspencer  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:25:59pm

re: #159 captdiggs

I see, so this is some sort of reverse phobia.
The Imam is not to be questioned, but Klein is to be dismissed out of hand, even though the Imam said it in a recorded broadcast.
That’s a very closed minded way of evaluating information.

Some of that sort of thinking led to the massacre at Ft Hood.
Everyone was afraid of looking “islamophobic”…so a lot of people died.

Would you be so kind as to link the recorded broadcast?

169 Varek Raith  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:26:13pm

re: #166 captdiggs

Attacking the messenger as most are doing here is a poor way to make an argument.
It usually means there is no defense.

For the third time now—-the imam made his statements in a public radio broadcast.
I really do not care who the interviewer was.

Just like with the Sherrod tape.
Or the Acorn vids.
Who cares if the source is a nut?

170 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:26:20pm

re: #165 ClaudeMonet

It’s a Sufi place. Wahabists hate Sufi. So they’re not likely to go there, except to blow it up.

171 kirkspencer  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:26:58pm

re: #167 blueraven

gmta

172 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:27:07pm

re: #170 Obdicut

It’s a Sufi place. Wahabists hate Sufi. So they’re not likely to go there, except to blow it up.

SEE??? TERRORISM!!11!

173 CuriousLurker  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:27:08pm

re: #36 Charles

Also, the article you posted only mentions 9 of these 20 people.

I was just cruising by to see what today’s topics are and wanted to make a quick additional point.

Not every Muslim has a Muslim name. Many Muslim converts have Muslim names that they go by, but their legal name remains whatever their parents gave them.

Photos are not an accurate either; not every Muslim woman wears hijab, and not every Muslim man has a beard or wears one of those kufi caps.

The Ukranian American pharmacist at your drug store might be Muslim. The cowboy with the heavy drawl & blue eyes driving that pick-up in Texas might be Muslim. Your African American neighbor, the one with the Peruvian wife? Muslim, both of them. That Puerto Rican kid who works down at the corner store…

Every time I go out, there are Muslims in the street (including kids) who give me salaams when they see my hijab. If they didn’t, there’s NO WAY I would ever guess they were Muslim.

Okay, now I’m going to log back out and go watch District 9.

Later, Lizards.

174 albusteve  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:29:32pm

re: #148 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. LGF is skeptical when it comes to those who mostly lurk. Its not that they’re not welcome to do that, but you have to be a regular in order to avoid having your motives questioned.

lurk you

175 CuriousLurker  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:31:13pm

re: #173 CuriousLurker

P.S. By the way, those examples I gave? Those are all real people I’ve met.

Now I’m really leaving, I swear.

~~~GONE~~~

176 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:31:39pm

re: #166 captdiggs

I really do not care who the interviewer was.

You should. Taking everything at face value will get you fooled on a regular basis. Since I know you don’t vet your sources, now I can’t trust anything you say.

177 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:31:52pm

I am not opposed to the mosque but I do have my questions about Imam Rauf.

He backs Perdana which initiated the Gaza Peach Flotilla by ponying up money to buy the first boat. After the Flotilla the Perdana site was filled with hate and lies.
They mostly cleaned it up.

Here is Iman Rauf’s page at Perdana Global Peace. It’s interesting that you can no longer navigate to that page from the website. At least I can’t find a way.) You have to have saved the address from before.

If this is the goal of Imam Rauf’s Cordoba Initiative …

Cordoba Initiative (CI) aims to achieve a tipping point in Muslim-West relations within the next decade, steering the world back to the course of mutual recognition and respect and away from heightened tensions.

… how come Imam Rauf is an important person at Perdana, the organization that started the so-called Gaza Peace Flotilla by contributing money to buy a ship?

Here are Perdana’s goals:

“Peace for us simply means the absence of war. We must never be deflected from this simple objective.”
Tun Dr. Mahathir Mohamad – Prime Minister of Malaysia 1981 – 2003

The Perdana Global Peace Organization, a first but resolute step in the arduous journey towards global peace, moves towards the single goal of putting an end to war. Its founder, Tun Dr. Mahathir Mohamad, envisages “a serious, active and sustained struggle against war and for peace”. Sharing and supporting this agenda are world-prominent professionals, intellectuals, authors, statesmen – all passionate advocates of international peace. Together, they have signed the Kuala Lumpur Initiative that defines the Kuala Lumpur Initiative to Criminalise War.

And

PGPO’s Objectives

1. To oppose war and champion peace and global understanding

2. To organise fora, seminars and spread information on peace and global understanding

3. To conduct dialogue at national and international levels on peace issues

4. To network with other non governmental organisations working on peace issues

(I can’t link directly. Look for the button ABOUT.)

Nobody seems to ask Imam Rauf, his wife or his supporters about Perdana. Not this article or the NPR piece I saw on the mosque. And nobody has asked him about Hamas. That would sure end speculation about whether or not the Klein piece is accurate.

This piece and the NPR piece are hardly what I’d call tough investigative reports. They come off as puff pieces to me. Why didn’t they ask the obvious questions about Perdana and Hamas?

Again, I’m not opposed to the mosque. But that doesn’t mean I trust Imam Rauf.

178 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:32:04pm

re: #173 CuriousLurker

I was just cruising by to see what today’s topics are and wanted to make a quick additional point.

Not every Muslim has a Muslim name. Many Muslim converts have Muslim names that they go by, but their legal name remains whatever their parents gave them.

Photos are not an accurate either; not every Muslim woman wears hijab, and not every Muslim man has a beard or wears one of those kufi caps.

The Ukranian American pharmacist at your drug store might be Muslim. The cowboy with the heavy drawl & blue eyes driving that pick-up in Texas might be Muslim. Your African American neighbor, the one with the Peruvian wife? Muslim, both of them. That Puerto Rican kid who works down at the corner store…

Every time I go out, there are Muslims in the street (including kids) who give me salaams when they see my hijab. If they didn’t, there’s NO WAY I would ever guess they were Muslim.

Okay, now I’m going to log back out and go watch District 9.

Later, Lizards.

My fair-skinned, red-haired cousin might be a Muslim.

Gosh-darn, why in fact, she is!
And I’ve seen the family 4th of July photos.
And the family photos of celebration with the Christian family members at Easter, Christmas.
What sorts of odd Muslims are these?
/ probably many more like this than not, I suspect.

179 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:32:18pm

Hi folks.
Now why on earth would anyone be crticized for questioning the motives of someone they neither know personally nor have reason to trust blindly?
Unless, of course, they work for the MSM in which case they should definitely get a pass.

180 captdiggs  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:36:34pm

re: #167 blueraven

Can you link to the audio, or a transcript?

Sure…did a quick search…and at the *dreaded, feared,and loathed* WND—they have the actual clip of the show

wnd.com

I am fairly confident that should anyone go to the link, that they will not catch any fatal diseases, nor become a raving *islamophobic* maniac.

181 Varek Raith  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:37:51pm

Lol

182 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:37:55pm

re: #177 HelloDare

Again, I’m not opposed to the mosque. But that doesn’t mean I trust Imam Rauf.

Just like Killgore said…and i don’t disagree either. We can object to the knee-jerk overreaction to the project without forsaking our ability to do what we do every day: sift through facts and words and look for truth.

(other thing we do every day: try to take over the world)

183 captdiggs  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:39:22pm

re: #176 wrenchwench

You should. Taking everything at face value will get you fooled on a regular basis. Since I know you don’t vet your sources, now I can’t trust anything you say.

sheesh…go listen to the interview and lay aside your obvious irrational hared of Aaron Klein.

184 Varek Raith  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:42:00pm

re: #183 captdiggs

sheesh…go listen to the interview and lay aside your obvious irrational hared of Aaron Klein.

Oh, please.
WND is completely off the rails.

185 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:42:22pm

re: #161 Cato the Elder

LOL.

New Palin baby names:

Carport
Cashew
Rake
Purple

Fecundity has it’s privileges.

That actually pissed me off. I’ve seen people who came up with more out there than “Track” or “Trig”. That part struck me as crass and catty.

186 ClaudeMonet  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:44:00pm

re: #173 CuriousLurker

Every time I go out, there are Muslims in the street (including kids) who give me salaams when they see my hijab. If they didn’t, there’s NO WAY I would ever guess they were Muslim.

Okay, now I’m going to log back out and go watch District 9.

Later, Lizards.

They may not be Muslim. They may know that “salaam” is a good greeting for a passing person who is dressed as a Muslim, just as one may say, “Sholom” to a passing Hasidic Jew.

Heck, I often say “salaam” to the Muslims in my apartment complex, and I’m not exactly a Muslim.

187 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:44:33pm

re: #184 Varek Raith

Oh, please.
WND is completely off the rails.

Quite Concur. If WND says it, I will not believe it unless it is verified by a reputable source.

188 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:52:24pm

re: #183 captdiggs

sheesh…go listen to the interview and lay aside your obvious irrational hared of Aaron Klein.

heh, this is the guy who was tossed out of british parliament by George Galloway along with wacko right-wing radio jock Rusty Humphries, I totally remember when that happened and all the normal mindless talker jerkoffs were all a twitter about it. This guy’s another one of these hack partisan broadcasters. Whining about wikipedia, lol.


Not everyone who calls themselves a bureau chief is a real journalist

189 kirkspencer  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:56:05pm

re: #180 captdiggs

Thanks. I did listen.

Listening, and then re-reading what was written above (which is cut and pasted from the top of that WND link) left me with a feeling of deja-vu. In a word: Sherrod. Or maybe Breitbart. The quotes are accurate, but when you listen to what was cut it makes the tale a slight bit different.

Not least in that is the fact that Klein reminded me a great deal of Bill O’Reilly.

190 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:56:10pm

re: #180 captdiggs

That was a great interview. Thanks. Klein asked the questions that I wanted answers to. And Imam Rauf refused to answer them. Wish Klein had asked more about the Gaza Peace Flotilla.

Klein asked the obvious questions. The Park51 interview was a puff piece.

Thanks again for the link.

191 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:57:14pm

hahaha Aaron Klein book title. AN ACTUAL TITLE

“The Manchurian President: Barack Obama’s Ties to Communists, Socialists and Anti-American Extremists “

Highlights of The Manchurian President:

*Obama’s mysterious college years unearthed

*Shocking new details of Obama’s relationship with Bill Ayers and other Weathermen terrorists

*Obama’s ties to Islam and black liberation theology

*Startling facts about Obama’s eligibility to serve as president

*Obama’s membership in a socialist party probed

*How Obama’s “hope,” “change” slogans stem from communist activism

*Radical socalists involved in drafting stimulus bill, ObamaCare

*Communists, socialists and other radicals on team Obama, including an expose on Obama’s top guns in the White House

*Never-before-revealed depth of Obama’s relationship with ACORN

You’re taking this guy seriously, Diggs? What the hell? This is AlexJonesTown territory. There ain’t weed strong enough for this fool and his gibbering to make sense to me.

192 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:58:24pm

re: #190 HelloDare

That was a great interview. Thanks. Klein asked the questions that I wanted answers to. And Imam Rauf refused to answer them. Wish Klein had asked more about the Gaza Peace Flotilla.

Klein asked the obvious questions. The Park51 interview was a puff piece.

Thanks again for the link.

So sorry you didn’t get your daily recommended allowance of paranoid hackery and faux “journalism”, there’s always Pam Gellar

193 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 1:59:51pm

re: #189 kirkspencer

I don’t know about Klein’s other work but there was nothing untoward with that interview. He asked questions. Rauf refused to answer them. So Klein pushed him. Normal, everyday stuff.

Again, maybe Klein is a jerk. But he did a good job in this interview.

194 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:04:50pm
In March 2009, Klein criticized Wikipedia for what he described as preferential treatment of Barack Obama coverage. Klein said that Wikipedia editors had scrubbed the article of material critical of the president and that an editor had been suspended for attempting to add “missing” details about Obama’s relationship with Bill Ayers and allegations that Obama was not born in the United States. Klein said similar negative content was found in the article of George W. Bush.[22][23][24]

The story was picked up by The Independent, The Daily Telegraph, Drudge Report and Fox News. A spokesperson for Wikipedia stated that the Obama article had not received any preferential treatment[22] and another spokesperson noted the site’s content is monitored and edited entirely by users. “Editors are really, really trying to do this as neutral as possible”.[25]

Klein removed the name of the editor from the article after reports arose on blogs and Wired News that he might himself be the suspended editor described in the story. In an email sent in response to the Wired News article, Klein wrote that the editor “works with me and does research for me.”

Basically, Klein engaging in Ywikipedia vandalizing on Barack Obama


This is your “journalist”, Aaron Klein. This is what passes for credibility? This is your interviewer? Uh uh. This is a hack preaching to bigots and paranoids. Give me a break with these children who call themselves “journalists”.

195 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:06:14pm

re: #192 WindUpBird

So sorry you didn’t get your daily recommended allowance of paranoid hackery and faux “journalism”, there’s always Pam Gellar


In the case of an unedited interview there is no reason to discredit the source. An op-ed or an editorial is a different matter.
McCarthyism was all about blackballing folks whose politics were considered unacceptable.

196 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:07:10pm

re: #193 HelloDare

I don’t know about Klein’s other work but there was nothing untoward with that interview. He asked questions. Rauf refused to answer them. So Klein pushed him. Normal, everyday stuff.

Again, maybe Klein is a jerk. But he did a good job in this interview.

I’m listening to it right now, and so far I haven’t heard the Imam say anything questionable. He speaks out VERY strongly against Islamic radicalism and expansionism.

I don’t see anything wrong with his statements on Al Qaeda.

And he says “I am a supporter of the state of Israel.”

Hello? What the hell am I supposed to be outraged about, except that a guy who appears to me to be pretty decent and reasonable is being portrayed as an extremist?

197 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:07:16pm

re: #195 Spare O’Lake

In the case of an unedited interview there is no reason to discredit the source. An op-ed or an editorial is a different matter.
McCarthyism was all about blackballing folks whose politics were considered unacceptable.

Lol. gawker.com

yeah, you keep on covering for these fools

198 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:09:38pm

re: #191 WindUpBird

wow

199 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:10:11pm

And I’m out to the Portland Brewer’s Festival and then the Cynic/Intronaut show. HELL YEAH

200 blueraven  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:12:49pm

re: #196 Charles

I’m listening to it right now, and so far I haven’t heard the Imam say anything questionable. He speaks out VERY strongly against Islamic radicalism and expansionism.

I don’t see anything wrong with his statements on Al Qaeda.

And he says “I am a supporter of the state of Israel.”

Hello? What the hell am I supposed to be outraged about, except that a guy who appears to me to be pretty decent and reasonable is being portrayed as an extremist?

Ditto. I am not the hearing the outrageous outrage portrayed.

201 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:13:11pm

re: #196 Charles

I’m listening to it right now, and so far I haven’t heard the Imam say anything questionable. He speaks out VERY strongly against Islamic radicalism and expansionism.

I don’t see anything wrong with his statements on Al Qaeda.

And he says “I am a supporter of the state of Israel.”

Hello? What the hell am I supposed to be outraged about, except that a guy who appears to me to be pretty decent and reasonable is being portrayed as an extremist?

He doesn’t seem to be very extreme at all. It was a good interview, no?

202 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:13:38pm

re: #196 Charles

I’m listening to it right now, and so far I haven’t heard the Imam say anything questionable. He speaks out VERY strongly against Islamic radicalism and expansionism.

I don’t see anything wrong with his statements on Al Qaeda.

And he says “I am a supporter of the state of Israel.”

Hello? What the hell am I supposed to be outraged about, except that a guy who appears to me to be pretty decent and reasonable is being portrayed as an extremist?

I recall when you got on CAIR’s case because they would not renounce Hamas.
Would it make a difference if Klein or you had asked CAIR the question?

203 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:16:12pm

re: #201 Spare O’Lake

He doesn’t seem to be very extreme at all. It was a good interview, no?

Actually, no, I didn’t think it was a good interview. Aaron Klein started out sounding reasonable, but about halfway through he turned quite nasty, hectoring and interrupting and demanding that Imam Feisal jump through hoops. I don’t blame him for getting irritated at that kind of bullshit attack interview.

204 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:17:52pm

re: #202 HelloDare

I recall when you got on CAIR’s case because they would not renounce Hamas.
Would it make a difference if Klein or you had asked CAIR the question?

When did CAIR ever say, “We are supporters of the state of Israel,” or when did CAIR ever condemn Islamic radicalism in completely unequivocal terms? Never.

The cases could not be any more different. There’s no parallel here.

205 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:29:30pm

re: #204 Charles

When did CAIR ever say, “We are supporters of the state of Israel,” or when did CAIR ever condemn Islamic radicalism in completely unequivocal terms? Never.

The cases could not be any more different. There’s no parallel here.

This is the mission of Iman Rauf’s Cordoba Initiative: Cordoba Initiative (CI) aims to achieve a tipping point in Muslim-West relations within the next decade, steering the world back to the course of mutual recognition and respect and away from heightened tensions.

When a man who devotes his life to peace refuses to renounce Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood, I am suspicious when he says he supports the state of Israel.

206 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:30:04pm

re: #172 Aceofwhat?

SEE??? TERRORISM!!11!

I am actually worried that the Wahabists might target this place because, to them, the Muslims that go there are apostates.

I hope they have planned for good security.

They should hire the Israelis.

207 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:31:40pm

Please note that in that interview, Imam Feisal also points out that he had absolutely nothing to do with the group that donated money to the Gaza flotilla — he gave a speech once to the group, and now he’s being portrayed as a “key member.” And he also points out that his father was not in the Muslim Brotherhood, another lie that’s being spread.

What the Bigot Brigade is doing to Imam Feisal reminds me a lot of what Andrew Breitbart did to Shirley Sherrod.

Listen to that interview and then read the World Net Daily article about it — they completely omit his strong condemnations of Islamic radicalism, and his statements about bridge-building. And they completely omit, “I am a supporter of Israel.” Instead the title they use is, “Ground Zero’ imam makes stunning terror comments.”

This is typical disgusting World Net Daily garbage.

208 mardukhai  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:33:34pm

Charles —

Okay, he’s not CAIR. I admit that.

But why not ask the good Imam to condemn the butchers of Sudan? Why does even al-Jazeera have problems with his activism for Bashir.

And really, where does the money come from for this “Park51”?

I’ve been reading his newsletter for years, and as a journalist, it makes me itch. Something’s not right. He’s not as moderate as he seems.

209 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:37:10pm

re: #195 Spare O’Lake

In the case of an unedited interview there is no reason to discredit the source. An op-ed or an editorial is a different matter.
McCarthyism was all about blackballing folks whose politics were considered unacceptable.

In the case of someone who works for WND, I’m not sure I believe in ‘unedited interviews’.

210 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:38:35pm

re: #203 Charles

Actually, no, I didn’t think it was a good interview. Aaron Klein started out sounding reasonable, but about halfway through he turned quite nasty, hectoring and interrupting and demanding that Imam Feisal jump through hoops. I don’t blame him for getting irritated at that kind of bullshit attack interview.

I don’t see it as demanding that Imam Rauf jump through hoops. He was trying to get the Imam to answer simple question. If an organizer of a Tea Party refused to denounce the John Birch Society and said, “I’m a peacemaker, don’t try to connect me with that group.” Wouldn’t the interviewer be correct to keep asking the Tea Party guy to denounce the group?

211 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:38:50pm

re: #208 mardukhai

Charles —

Okay, he’s not CAIR. I admit that.

But why not ask the good Imam to condemn the butchers of Sudan? Why does even al-Jazeera have problems with his activism for Bashir.

And really, where does the money come from for this “Park51”?

I’ve been reading his newsletter for years, and as a journalist, it makes me itch. Something’s not right. He’s not as moderate as he seems.

Can you give me a link to his activism for Bashir? You gave us an article last time, but I didn’t understand the connection being made.

212 Kronocide  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:38:51pm

re: #205 HelloDare


When a man who devotes his life to peace refuses to renounce Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood, I am suspicious when he says he supports the state of Israel.

When did he refuse to answer those direct questions?

213 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:40:27pm

re: #212 BigPapa

Jeez. Listen to the damn tape.

214 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:41:17pm

I have to say that I think the imam is probably in a no-win situation here. If he got on the horn and yelled “I love Israel! Hamas sucks! All terrorists should be shot! God bless America!” I think the next thing you’d see would be another hit piece in WND, and folks here saying they didn’t think he was sincere, and what about some other thing he could have said and didn’t?

215 Kronocide  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:43:34pm

re: #213 HelloDare

Jeez. Listen to the damn tape.

I’m listening to the damn tape now. So you’re stating that he’s ‘refusing to renounce Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood’ in this recording?

216 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:46:28pm

re: #207 Charles

Please note that in that interview, Imam Feisal also points out that he had absolutely nothing to do with the group that donated money to the Gaza flotilla — he gave a speech once to the group, and now he’s being portrayed as a “key member.” And he also points out that his father was not in the Muslim Brotherhood, another lie that’s being spread.

What the Bigot Brigade is doing to Imam Feisal reminds me a lot of what Andrew Breitbart did to Shirley Sherrod.

Listen to that interview and then read the World Net Daily article about it — they completely omit his strong condemnations of Islamic radicalism, and his statements about bridge-building. And they completely omit, “I am a supporter of Israel.” Instead the title they use is, “Ground Zero’ imam makes stunning terror comments.”

This is typical disgusting World Net Daily garbage.

I had questions about Imam Rauf’s connection with Perdana. Does that make me a liar? Klein asked the question. A valid question because the Imam has a page at Perdana. Imam Rauf answered the question. What’s the problem?

How does asking a valid question make somebody a liar?

217 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:47:04pm

re: #210 HelloDare

I don’t see it as demanding that Imam Rauf jump through hoops. He was trying to get the Imam to answer simple question. If an organizer of a Tea Party refused to denounce the John Birch Society and said, “I’m a peacemaker, don’t try to connect me with that group.” Wouldn’t the interviewer be correct to keep asking the Tea Party guy to denounce the group?

By the time the Imam did this interview, he had already been through this routine numerous times. I hear someone who’s refusing to play along with gotcha questions. And the proof that this was nothing but an attack job is in the WND article, which is such a distorted picture of the interview it’s beyond ludicrous.

218 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:49:22pm

re: #216 HelloDare

I had questions about Imam Rauf’s connection with Perdana. Does that make me a liar? Klein asked the question. A valid question because the Imam has a page at Perdana. Imam Rauf answered the question. What’s the problem?

The problem is that people are continuing to promote the lie that he’s a highly placed member of the group, right now, today.

How does asking a valid question make somebody a liar?

See above.

219 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:50:26pm

re: #217 Charles

By the time the Imam did this interview, he had already been through this routine numerous times. I hear someone who’s refusing to play along with gotcha questions. And the proof that this was nothing but an attack job is in the WND article, which is such a distorted picture of the interview it’s beyond ludicrous.

I have never heard the Imam being asked about Perdana. I’ve made that point a couple times at LGF.

220 Nimed  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:54:12pm

re: #219 HelloDare

I don’t get the endgame in this discussion, Hellodare. Let’s for a moment assume the worst about Rauf — that he holds a bunch of repulsive views he is hiding from the public. What would be the implications for you here?

Lots of religious leaders hold pretty dispicable views very openly, and people usually don’t go around forbidding the construction of their places of worship.

221 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:56:12pm

re: #220 Nimed

I don’t get the endgame in this discussion, Hellodare. Let’s for a moment assume the worst about Rauf — that he holds a bunch of repulsive views he is hiding from the public. What would be the implications for you here?

Lots of religious leaders hold pretty dispicable views very openly, and people usually don’t go around forbidding the construction of their places of worship.

Basically. This guy could be horrible. I do, however, know a lot of people who hold far more repulsive opinions than he has so far expressed, and while I don’t like them much, there’s very little I can do about them.

222 Kronocide  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:56:28pm

The interview started off smooth but went sorta gotcha, then the ‘do you still beat your wife’ questions started.

Those would be fair questions to ask of the Imam in a different time and place. Obviously context is lost here.

223 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 2:56:58pm

re: #219 HelloDare

I have never heard the Imam being asked about Perdana. I’ve made that point a couple times at LGF.

The WND article never mentions that he is not a member of the group. It omits every positive thing the Imam said in the interview, and twists everything else to sound negative.

For example:

The WABC host asked Rauf whether the Muslim Brotherhood is an extremist group. “I have nothing to do with the Muslim Brotherhood. My father was never a member of the Muslim Brotherhood,” retorted Rauf.

Klein, however, had not accused Rauf or his family of being involved with the Muslim Brotherhood.

That’s infuriatingly dishonest. In the interview, the Imam says immediately after the WND quotes that this Muslim Brotherhood accusation is another lie being spread about him. They conveniently left that out, and portrayed it as if he was hysterically ranting, when in truth it was obvious that he saw exactly where Klein was going with that question and tried to head it off.

Why are you taken in by this crap?

224 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 3:00:40pm

re: #220 Nimed

I said at the beginning and end of comment #177 that I am not opposed to the mosque but I do have my questions about Imam Rauf.

225 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 3:07:01pm

It was nice to see that the guy who did the interview linked at the top was logged into this thread for a while earlier.

226 Kronocide  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 3:07:53pm

re: #224 HelloDare

I said at the beginning and end… I am not opposed to the mosque but I do have my questions about Imam Rauf.

I have a few questions too but Klein didn’t do a good job of getting them answered. In fact, I have questions about Klein now.

While this is the court of public opinion and not law, the presumption of innocence still holds some merit. Rauf seems like he’s had a hell of a case made against him mostly on circumstantial and circumspect analogy, but no hard facts.

227 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 3:07:57pm

The clincher for me: “I am a supporter of the state of Israel.”

There is absolutely NO WAY that an Islamic extremist would ever say such a thing, whether they were hiding their extremism or not. You’ll never hear a CAIR spokesman say that. They’re incapable of telling that lie.

228 Nimed  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 3:09:40pm

re: #224 HelloDare

I said at the beginning and end of comment #177 that I am not opposed to the mosque but I do have my questions about Imam Rauf.

Fair enough.

229 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 3:11:20pm

WND is nuts. I never go there. Only went there because of the link to the interview. That aside, I thought the interview was good.

Taken on its own, Imam Rauf still did not denounce Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood in the interview. How can a person claim to be for Israel and not denounce organizations dedicated to its destruction?

No matter what WND said before or after the interview, Imam Rauf could have cleared everything up by denouncing Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood.

The interview would have stood on it’s own. Imam Rauf would have denounced Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood, no matter what WND wrote afterwards.

230 Kronocide  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 3:17:20pm

re: #229 HelloDare


Taken on its own, Imam Rauf still did not denounce Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood in the interview. How can a person claim to be for Israel and not denounce organizations dedicated to its destruction?

That’s a fair question absent the context of Klein’s interviewing style and setup, which obviously irritated Rauf. Maybe he’ll address that concisely to your liking another day.

231 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 3:24:50pm

re: #230 BigPapa

That’s a fair question absent the context of Klein’s interviewing style and setup, which obviously irritated Rauf. Maybe he’ll address that concisely to your liking another day.

You have to put the Klein interview in context. Compared it to, say, 60 Minutes, or Hard Ball or any interview show on TV. When somebody doesn’t answer a direct question, they are asked again and again.

There was nothing unusual here. The Imam did not answer a direct question. And Klein, no matter how despicable he may be, did a good job in this interview. He did the same thing that Chris Matthews or anybody at 60 Minutes would have done. He pushed for a direct answer.

232 scandalous?  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 3:50:54pm

Muslims have two forms of lying to non-believers permitted under certain circumstances: taqiyya and kitman. In some cases lying is used to gain the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability to defeat them.

Arafat used to tell his Muslim audience (and Abbas still does) one story and another to the anxious and open-minded Western press. Please, let’s not be so naive.

Does anyone have any history on this guy with respect to remarks he claims he made on 9-11 or after? Muslims in this country, in the years before and after 9-ll, have been quiet as mice when it comes to denouncing Islamic terrorism committed in the US and elsewhere. Has anyone heard of CAIR (Council of American Islamic Relations)? They consistently deny Islamic terrorism.

Many mosques and related facilities have been a safe harbor for terrorists in the making. So you are certain that a facility so large and close to 9-ll won’t draw new hopeful terrorists and wanna-be terrorists in like flies?

233 Kronocide  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 4:04:36pm

re: #231 HelloDare

You have to put the Klein interview in context. Compared it to, say, 60 Minutes, or Hard Ball or any interview show on TV. When somebody doesn’t answer a direct question, they are asked again and again.

There was nothing unusual here. The Imam did not answer a direct question. And Klein, no matter how despicable he may be, did a good job in this interview. He did the same thing that Chris Matthews or anybody at 60 Minutes would have done. He pushed for a direct answer.

Again, context: that was supposed to be a 7 minute interview according to Imam Rauf, and the first 7 minutes went smooth, then it got a little more Hardballian. I don’t like it when Mathews does it either, unless the interview is set up with both parties knowing that hard questions are going to be asked. I’m not sure that is what happened.

While times it may be an interviewer’s job to ask questions, it is also their job to get information or questions answered… or, depending on the show and format, badger around an interviewee. This one started getting a little more like the later before it finished.

If it was Klein’s job to get the Imam to make a statement on those specific questions, then he failed because he pushed too hard. So it depends on how you look at it.

234 Fortitudine  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 4:09:37pm

Shall I ask the brave soldier who fights by my side
In the cause of mankind, if our creeds agree? (Thomas Moore).

Fortunately the same America that breeds Pam Gellars also produces Joe Wrightsmans.

235 Kronocide  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 4:23:46pm

re: #232 scandalous?

Muslims have two forms of lying to non-believers permitted under certain circumstances: taqiyya and kitman. In some cases lying is used to gain the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability to defeat them.

Arafat used to tell his Muslim audience (and Abbas still does) one story and another to the anxious and open-minded Western press. Please, let’s not be so naive.

Muslims do not have a monopoly on lying or deception. Just because there’s a word for lying… well, we have a word for it too. It’s called lying.
You’re straining to accept that Rauf is the boogeyman and searching for proof, instead of taking things at face value and making judgement.

236 iceweasel  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 4:28:05pm

re: #232 scandalous?

Muslims have two forms of lying to non-believers permitted under certain circumstances: taqiyya and kitman.

Another ‘expert’ on Islam and taqiyyah, huh?

Here’s an actual Muslim at LGF setting you straight.

I doubt this will affect you, but there you go.

237 Gus  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 4:33:34pm

re: #236 iceweasel

Another ‘expert’ on Islam and taqiyyah, huh?

Here’s an actual Muslim at LGF setting you straight.

I doubt this will affect you, but there you go.

I doubt he or she will read it. They already have their mind made up and won’t read anything that challenges their preconceived and spoon fed assumptions on Islam.

238 Kronocide  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 4:37:09pm

re: #236 iceweasel

Another ‘expert’ on Islam and taqiyyah, huh?

Here’s an actual Muslim at LGF setting you straight.

I doubt this will affect you, but there you go.

I read it, I found it informative. I wonder what scandalous? response is to that nice effort.

239 CuriousLurker  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 4:49:54pm

re: #186 ClaudeMonet

They may not be Muslim. They may know that “salaam” is a good greeting for a passing person who is dressed as a Muslim, just as one may say, “Sholom” to a passing Hasidic Jew.

Heck, I often say “salaam” to the Muslims in my apartment complex, and I’m not exactly a Muslim.

Perhaps I should have been more specific. When I said “give me salaams” I didn’t mean they simply say “salaam”; between Muslims it is more formal and is almost always accompanied by other subtler cues.

I do sometimes get salaams from non-Muslims as well. It always brightens my day a little, so it’s nice to hear that you to say “salaam” to your neighbors.

240 iceweasel  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 4:55:18pm

re: #237 Gus 802

I doubt he or she will read it. They already have their mind made up and won’t read anything that challenges their preconceived and spoon fed assumptions on Islam.

I know. Even so, there are always people reading here that don’t have accounts or comment, and generally when I’m providing links like that it’s for them, not because I think it will change someone like that.

re: #238 BigPapa

I read it, I found it informative. I wonder what scandalous? response is to that nice effort.

The typical bigot will respond with garbled rage and spluttering.

A sockpuppet or troll will respond with a personal attack.

The more ‘intellekshul’ of the muslim-haters and bigots will think they’re being clever by saying yeah well, in the REAL version of taqiyyah muslims can lie about taqiyyah!1!1!

It’s a nice gig. It means they get to keep defining what Islam is and what Muslims think contrary to all evidence provided by actual Muslims, forever and ever.

Sigh.

241 CuriousLurker  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 5:03:44pm

re: #240 iceweasel

The more ‘intellekshul’ of the muslim-haters and bigots will think they’re being clever by saying yeah well, in the REAL version of taqiyyah muslims can lie about taqiyyah!1!1!

1000x up-dings for making me laugh after reading all the ick.

242 'K.'  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 6:04:15pm

Many of the arguments against this mosque are equally valid against any mosque! “Look at these fractious Muslims. Don’t let them get a foothold in America or we’re ruined.” Opponents should ask themselves whether they’d rather ban Muslim worship in America entirely.

Why are Christian politicians so concerned with Islam in an age when most young people leaving Christianity today aren’t leaving for Islam but quitting organized religion entirely? Instead of opposing a project that will increase religious faith in America, they should wise up and save their barbs for the unprecedented hemorrhaging of faith in the United States.

243 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 7:48:17pm

re: #220 Nimed

I don’t get the endgame in this discussion, Hellodare. Let’s for a moment assume the worst about Rauf — that he holds a bunch of repulsive views he is hiding from the public. What would be the implications for you here?

Lots of religious leaders hold pretty dispicable views very openly, and people usually don’t go around forbidding the construction of their places of worship.

basically, It’s Okay If You’re Not Muslim.

244 iceweasel  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 7:53:19pm

re: #242 ‘K.’

Many of the arguments against this mosque are equally valid against any mosque! “Look at these fractious Muslims. Don’t let them get a foothold in America or we’re ruined.” Opponents should ask themselves whether they’d rather ban Muslim worship in America entirely.

Why are Christian politicians so concerned with Islam in an age when most young people leaving Christianity today aren’t leaving for Islam but quitting organized religion entirely? Instead of opposing a project that will increase religious faith in America, they should wise up and save their barbs for the unprecedented hemorrhaging of faith in the United States.

US Christian politicians (i refer here to the wingnut theocrat variety) only see Christianity as the legitimate faith anyway. That’s why they don’t care about people leaving organised religion per se, or even about people leaving formal denominations— all the action is in furthering the lie that the US is ‘founded as a Christian nation’— and seeking to impose their theocratic rule on others. They’ll ‘settle’ for national days of prayer (cough) and for ensuring no one can get an abortion, etc.

Many of the arguments against this mosque are equally valid against any mosque!

Actually, most of the shitty arguments made in this thread can be exposed as such if we replace the word ‘muslim’ with ‘christian’, and make reference to the Army of God and domestic terrorism such as the assassination of Dr Tiller. I was about to do that with one such above — and replace ‘mosque’ with ‘church’ but I wasn’t especially up for the shitstorm that would follow.

At the time, that is. ;)

245 iceweasel  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 8:01:13pm

re: #232 scandalous?

Behold! Let’s have a thought experiment! :

Muslims Christians have two forms of lying to non-believers permitted under certain circumstances: abortion is one of them, gay people the other. In some cases lying is used to gain the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability to defeat them.

Arafat Randall Terry used to tell his Muslim Christian audience one story and another to the anxious and open-minded Western press librhul media. Please, let’s not be so naive.

Does anyone have any history on this guy with respect to remarks he claims he made on 9-11 the day Scott Roeder killed Dr Tiller or after?

Christians Muslims in this country, in the years before and after 9-ll the murder of Dr Tiller, have been quiet as mice when it comes to denouncing Islamic terrorism domestic terrorism against abortion providers committed in the US and elsewhere. Has anyone heard of CAIR (Council of American Islamic Relations) the GOP? They consistently deny Islamic terrorism that the Army of God and others are engaged in terrorism.

Many mosques churches and related facilities have been a safe harbor for terrorists in the making. So you are certain that a facility so large and close to 9-ll Wichita, Kansas won’t draw new hopeful terrorists and wanna-be terrorists in like flies?

*reminder: after Tiller’s murder, Operation Rescue moved its base of operations to Nebraska, the town where Dr Leroy Carthart, one of the only other 2 practicioners of late term abortion left in the US, lives and practices.

246 scandalous?  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 8:29:12pm

r: #238 BgPp

Sr rd t nd bt ddn’t swllw t. ny mm wll prsnt thr ntrprttn (n ths cs Snn) n cntxt ccptbl fr th gnrl pblc. rcll tht Hrvrd grd ws gvn chnc t dfn jhd fr th nvrsty nt lng ftr 9-11 s tht trm ws rltvly nw t th pblc t lrg. S h tld hs dnc jhd s ll bt slf-ntrspctn. H sd “Jhd, n ts trst nd prst frm, th frm t whch ll Mslms spr, s th dtrmntn t d rght, t d jstc vn gnst yr wn ntrsts.”

Tdy, mst f th wrld hs cm t ccpt jhd s mnng smthng dffrnt. Mslms wh crry t vlnt ctns whnvr thr mms tll thm thy r ndd t rctfy sttns r crryng t jhd. nd th jhd cn nd ds crss brdrs.

Sm stry fr tqyy. Thr my b “frml” dfntns bt mnngs smply chng vr tm. vn fndmntlsts sm t hv thr wn vrsns. n fnl xmpl: n 1975 th N Gnrl ssmbly ssrtd Znsm s rcsm. Wll tht dfntn thgh vrtrnd qt whl g s stll n pplr s (nd nfrtntly wdly ccptd) tdy.

247 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 8:53:10pm

re: #246 scandalous?

This is the third username you’ve registered to spread bigoted crap at LGF, and now this one is blocked too. Just go away. Nobody is buying what you’re selling any more.

248 DemonFish  Sun, Jul 25, 2010 10:40:02am

re: #57 JasonA

If being liberal with the truth to get laid is illegal - I’m an unashamed repeat offender!

249 kamala  Sun, Jul 25, 2010 2:35:18pm

1. Feisal Abdul Rauf (FAR) is a “visionary in this project” according to El Gamal.

2. FAR is the founder & chairman of the Cordoba Intiative.

3. One of the Cordoba Initiative’s key projects is called “Muslim Leaders of Tomorrow.” The group explicitly designates and approves each of these “Leaders.”

4. One such Muslim Leader of Tomorrow is Yasir Qadhi, who has been featured on the Cordoba Initative’s web site.

5. Yasir Qadhi is a raving anti-semite who has expressed vehement support for extremist imams caught via undercover recordings in the UK.

revuse.wetpaint.com

The key question to ask yourself is this — could anything at all convince you that Park 51 shouldn’t be built? If so, what would it be?

On one hand, nothing today in the US prevents “unsavory” characters from buying and building a house of worship.

And yet, if avowed supporters of Al-Qaeda were to build a mosque in America where they’d unabashedly teach and promote their version of Islam, would you encourage its development or would you try to stop it via different legal channels?

If you’re eager to defend their right to build such a mosque, congratulations for sticking to your suicidal principles.

If not, where do you draw the line?

250 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 25, 2010 4:19:40pm

As usual they’re coming out of the woodwork now that the thread has moved down, trying to get the last comments.

251 SeafoodGumbo  Mon, Jul 26, 2010 6:32:58pm

On September 11, 2001, I went down to the site of the attacks and spent two days handing out water to first responders and other victims. Hundreds of Muslims died on that day.

It was really 80,000 Muslims who died in the attack; 92% of the victims were Muslim. I wonder why he’s under-counting by so much.

252 Fortitudine  Mon, Jul 26, 2010 7:01:57pm

If you’re eager to defend their right to build such a mosque, congratulations for sticking to your suicidal principles.

Pesky thing, that First Amendment. Obviously an Islamofascist plot.


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