Van Jones on the Sherrod Debacle

Opinion • Views: 2,646

Obama’s former “green jobs” adviser Van Jones (another person who was forced to resign after a dishonest right wing smear campaign) has an op-ed in the New York Times about the zero-sum politics of personal destruction: Shirley Sherrod and Me.

UNDERSTAND how Shirley Sherrod, the Agriculture Department official who was forced to resign last week, must have felt.

Last year I, too, resigned from an administration job, after I uttered some ill-chosen words about the Republican Party and was accused — falsely — of signing my name to a petition being passed around by 9/11 conspiracy theorists. Partisan Web sites and pundits pounced, and I, too, saw my name go from obscurity to national infamy within hours.

Our situations aren’t exactly the same. Ms. Sherrod’s comments, in which she, a black woman, appeared to admit to racial discrimination against a white couple, were taken far out of context, while I truly did use a vulgarity.

But the way we were treated is strikingly similar, and it reveals a lot about the venal nature of Washington politics in the Internet era. In my case, the media rushed to judgment so quickly that I was never able to make clear that the group put my name on its Web site without my permission. The group finally admitted that it never had my signature, but by then it was too late.

Fortunately, Ms. Sherrod has been offered a new job. But our stories offer cautionary tales to anyone interested in taking a job in national politics.

The crazy smearing of Van Jones was one of several major breaking points between LGF and the entire rest of the right wing blogosphere; I refused to jump on this bandwagon, and did my best to point out that Jones was being railroaded — and received a deluge of hate mail and attacks from wingnut bloggers as a result. They were in full-out lynch mode and didn’t want to hear anything that might put a crimp in their hate buzz.

And it should be noted that the person behind this dishonest hatchet job on Van Jones, who Googled up Jones’s name on a 9/11 Truther petition (and then ignored all evidence that the signature was added without his knowledge) was none other than religious fanatic Jim Hoft.

Jump to bottom

223 comments
1 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 12:23:29am

Jim Hoft also was involved in the smears about Kevin Jennings, and I believe is still pushing them even now. Homophobic outrageous outrages.

2 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 12:23:54am

“Monotony of evil: never anything new, everything about it is equivalent. Never anything real, everything about it is imaginary. It is because of this monotony that quantity plays so great a part. A host of women (Don Juan) or of men (Celimene) etc. One is condemned to false infinity. That is hell itself.”

-Simone Weil (has a posse)

G’night lizards.

3 windsagio  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 12:25:25am

The unfortunate sidestory of both of these is the administrations inability or unwillingness to stand behind people that are pretty clearly being victimized by the scumbags

4 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 12:27:07am

re: #3 windsagio

The unfortunate sidestory of both of these is the administrations inability or unwillingness to stand behind people that are pretty clearly being victimized by the scumbags

I think that’s changing. (maybe it’s just a hope).

5 freetoken  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 12:27:18am

What always got me about the Van Jones smear campaign is that the Jones himself would otherwise be held up as a positive example. Here we have a man who as an angry youngster dabbled with marxists, but then ditched the marxism as he realized it was the wrong way to go.

But you couldn’t tell that from the Hoft/Beck smears of the man.

6 windsagio  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 12:28:19am

re: #4 iceweasel

I think that’s changing

. (maybe it’s just a hope).

I think both the admin and the media have learned something from Sherrod, that they for whatever reason didn’t learn from Van Jones.

so yeah, I’m hopeful too.

7 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 12:29:00am
8 boredtechindenver  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 12:30:59am

TNC reader Rikyrah has a quote that she used on TNC’s comments and it appears, her (?) blog also. “They Are Who We Thought They Were”

Don’t kid yourself. We people of color knew this was coming if Obama was elected. I think we underestimated how bad it would get. “They Are Who We Thought They Were”

9 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 12:35:05am

re: #6 windsagio

I think both the admin and the media have learned something from Sherrod, that they for whatever reason didn’t learn from Van Jones.

so yeah, I’m hopeful too.

I think the difference might have been that Van Jones himself didn’t want to push it; didn’t want the grief it was going to bring him and his family. He would rather resign or step down than go through all that.
Also, the attacks on Sherrod are even uglier and more unhinged. They’re lying about an actual lynching? Really? Who the fuck does that?
It’s been one huge debacle after another in this ‘story’ for the Right Wing Scream Machine, and yet it hasn’t stopped them.

That’s what I would have liked Van Jones to mention; he did say this:

Anyone with a laptop and a flip camera can engineer a fake info-virus and inject it into the body politic. Those with cable TV shows and axes to grind can concoct their own realities. The high standards and wise judgments of people like Walter Cronkite once acted as our national immune system, zapping scandal-mongers and quashing wild rumors. As a step toward further democratizing America, we shrunk those old gatekeepers — and ended up weakening democracy’s defenses. Rapidly developing communication technologies did the rest.

The only solution is for Americans to adjust our culture over time to our new media technologies. The information system gives us more data than ever before, faster than ever before. But we don’t yet have the wisdom in place to help us deal with it.

…and that’s true, but race is what’s motivating much of this, as well as the hysteria on the right. It isn’t just the new technologies.

10 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 12:36:44am

re: #8 boredtechindenver

TNC reader Rikyrah has a quote that she used on TNC’s comments and it appears, her (?) blog also. “They Are Who We Thought They Were”

Don’t kid yourself. We people of color knew this was coming if Obama was elected. I think we underestimated how bad it would get. “They Are Who We Thought They Were”

They’re worse. I never thought it would be this bad or go this mainstream.

11 windsagio  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 12:40:04am

re: #9 iceweasel

I guess I can’t criticize him for doing that, really.

I was gonna say something about how not standing up to them makes them escalate and try more, but it doesnt’ seem to matter, as going from O’keefe to this shows.

The racism is hard for me to talk about really, I tend to get a little broad-brushy. At some point tho’, the organized conservative movement has become inextricably linked to racism (could be linked to the fact that every GOP president since Nixon has engaged in some level of race baiting, tho)

12 boredtechindenver  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 12:40:14am

Double posting be damned. I miss Steve Gilliard. His voice and words are missed in these times.

13 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 12:43:18am

re: #12 boredtechindenver

Double posting be damned. I miss Steve Gilliard. His voice and words are missed in these times.

YEAH! Me too. :(

14 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 12:43:34am

re: #9 iceweasel

…and that’s true, but race is what’s motivating much of this, as well as the hysteria on the right. It isn’t just the new technologies.

Van Jones, also, was looking to take a real place in the administration, which makes him a far more rational target.

This business with Sherrod is just random attack on a woman who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time while black.

15 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 12:46:55am

re: #11 windsagio


The racism is hard for me to talk about really, I tend to get a little broad-brushy. At some point tho’, the organized conservative movement has become inextricably linked to racism (could be linked to the fact that every GOP president since Nixon has engaged in some level of race baiting, tho)

yeah. The southern strategy. Well, they’ve got their southern strategy all right— the only group where they haven’t sustained demographic losses: older white male evangelical christians in the south who attend church at least once a week. (gallup poll, may 2009).
Just wish they had a strategy for the 21st century and the rest of the country, that’s all.

16 windsagio  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 12:47:05am

re: #14 SanFranciscoZionist

They had to hit someone JUST THEN tho’, because the TP was under a lot of pressure at the time over their racism.

17 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 12:51:42am

Speaking of tea party racism— I think this was mentioned here? Apologies if so:

Remember back in the day, one of the reasons Trent Lott got into trouble after his Strom Thurmond comments was that it turned out he had long-standing ties to a neo-segregationist group called the “Council of Conservative Citizens”, the successor group to the White Citizens Councils from the Civil Rights Era.

Well, they’re back.

It turns out that the good folks from the CofCC have been setting up shop at Tea Party events down in Florida. And now a prominent leader of the Florida CofCC is lambasting the Tea Party for not embracing the NAACP’s claim the Tea Party is a racist group.



White Pride Group Urges Tea Party to Flaunt Its Bigotry

I think KT had a page on this and Charles did a post— I do remember ones on Edwards; sorry if this is all a repeat, super-tired and busy the last few days. Can’t remember where I’ve seen anything at the moment.

18 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 12:55:24am

re: #14 SanFranciscoZionist

Van Jones, also, was looking to take a real place in the administration, which makes him a far more rational target.

This business with Sherrod is just random attack on a woman who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time while black.

I don’t think rationality enters into it anymore, though. I think they’ve just become more and more emboldened, angry, and unhinged. That’s my impression anyway, and I believe that’s why this fake outrage is blowing up for them- it’s so over the line, so hysterical, that even the usual gasbags and concern trolls (Our Dumb Media) are taken aback.

19 boredtechindenver  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 12:56:44am

Ice, windy, SFZ, and Charles,

Thank you for your posts. Ice and SFZ, your insight and wisdom are often guide posts when I don’t know enough about a subject, and Windy (and WUB) you keep me sane when I need laughter.

Charles, while I learned of LGF a long time ago from a poster on the original MTK (apple gossip) boards and the subsequent Spork boards, I didn’t follow you other then the big stories. I didn’t always agree with you then, and I don’t always agree with you now, but I do find myself agreeing more, and even more importantly, appreciating you more. You have created a community where disagreement and arguments are kept as civil as possible, and an echo chamber is not the desired outcome.

20 windsagio  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 12:58:17am

re: #17 iceweasel

always worth repeating/relinking, imo.


re: #18 iceweasel

They feel cornered/trapped and it makes them strike back. Cornered dog effect.

We’re seeing similar things with gay rights, etc… just not quite as bad so far.

21 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:01:12am

Watching Dave Chappelle now…

“Now, that there is a discrepancy. What you call ‘classic civil rights footage’, I call footage of me getting bit on my ass by a German Shepherd.”

22 windsagio  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:04:08am

On that subject…

Youtube Video

“Whats eating you?” “A god damn German Shepherd, thats what’s been eating me!”

23 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:04:10am

re: #20 windsagio

always worth repeating/relinking, imo.

re: #18 iceweasel

They feel cornered/trapped and it makes them strike back. Cornered dog effect.

We’re seeing similar things with gay rights, etc… just not quite as bad so far.

Oh yeah?
There’s a florida congregation running a “no homo mayor’ protest (their charming slogan). They’re also doing this:
Florida Church Hosting ‘International Burn a Koran Day’ on 9/11

These are the same sorts of bigots screaming at Egyptian Coptic Christians at the Cordoba House protests.

24 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:04:21am

re: #20 windsagio

always worth repeating/relinking, imo.

re: #18 iceweasel

They feel cornered/trapped and it makes them strike back. Cornered dog effect.

We’re seeing similar things with gay rights, etc… just not quite as bad so far.

I just do not get what’s so damn bad right now that these folks can’t calm the hell down. I KNOW they don’t like the President, but I didn’t like Bush for eight years, and it didn’t hurt me any.

25 windsagio  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:05:33am

re: #23 iceweasel

Not saying they’re not loathesome, terrible human beings :p

Beyond that, let me repeat from earlier. This is a movement that has been intentionally cultivated by the GOP since Nixon. Its just that they’ve finally spiralled out of their handlers control.

26 boredtechindenver  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:06:39am

re: #25 windsagio

Its just that they’ve finally spiralled out of their handlers control.

Is that a feature or a bug?

27 windsagio  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:08:05am

re: #24 SanFranciscoZionist

Its also that weird insecure entitlement.

I’m tired, I can’t explain it right… I guess the best way is referring to the ‘real american’ thing.

I think they have to keep telling themselves that they’re the good, right, Godly, whatever people, so if they’ve lost somehow its because they were cheated or some horrible evil is about to befall them.

Kinda messy description, but I hope I got my idea across >>

28 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:08:21am

re: #24 SanFranciscoZionist

I just do not get what’s so damn bad right now that these folks can’t calm the hell down. I KNOW they don’t like the President, but I didn’t like Bush for eight years, and it didn’t hurt me any.

Really, you don’t get it?
He’s black.
Their other problem? they bought the rove bullshit about a permanent majority; they listened to Rush and others telling them that liberals are vermin, are the enemy, are traitors for 20 years; they listened to O’reilly and others tell them that Christians are being oppressed and persecuted when they’re not allowed to breach the wall of separation between church and state, and they are outraged, outraged, that such an obviously UnAmurkin guy was elected by such a majority of other UnAmurkins.

of course they lost their minds. They’d lost em long ago, but it wasn’t til they lost power as well that we see them really enraged.

29 windsagio  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:09:05am

re: #26 boredtechindenver

Is that a feature or a bug?

Bug ;p

Its like the guy (I think it was Ice) put a page up about last night… “Make those dumbasses quit asking me birth certificate questions!”

They know that they can’t control the nutjobs to the point that it’s gonna start hurting them.

30 windsagio  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:09:44am

re: #28 iceweasel

Really, you don’t get it?
He’s black.
Their other problem? they bought the rove bullshit about a permanent majority; they listened to Rush and others telling them that liberals are vermin, are the enemy, are traitors for 20 years; they listened to O’reilly and others tell them that Christians are being oppressed and persecuted when they’re not allowed to breach the wall of separation between church and state, and they are outraged, outraged, that such an obviously UnAmurkin guy was elected by such a majority of other UnAmurkins.

of course they lost their minds. They’d lost em long ago, but it wasn’t til they lost power as well that we see them really enraged.

what I tried to say in #27, but done much better. KUDOS!

31 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:11:15am

re: #27 windsagio

re: #25 windsagio

I’m tired too but I agree with you. You’re right. This is also about the appropriation of the notion of ‘patriot’ and the appropriation of the notion of ‘american’ — and that’s been going on for about 20 years. OF COURSE now these people BELIEVE that bullshit. They genuinely believe that librhuls and brown people aren’t reel Amurkins and must be destroyed before ‘they’ bring down the Reel Amurka.

32 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:12:39am

re: #29 windsagio

Bug ;p

Its like the guy (I think it was Ice) put a page up about last night… “Make those dumbasses quit asking me birth certificate questions!”

They know that they can’t control the nutjobs to the point that it’s gonna start hurting them.

Freetoken!1! I think?

33 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:13:47am

Oh boy. here we go….

34 windsagio  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:15:15am

re: #32 iceweasel

damn! Yeah him then!

re: #33 iceweasel

Oh boy. here we go…

MM?

35 boredtechindenver  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:15:27am

re: #33 iceweasel

Down dingers on Master spy?

36 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:16:21am

I spy with my little eye,
something beginning with Y…

spidey sense rules! (spy-d)

37 windsagio  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:17:50am

re: #35 boredtechindenver

re: #36 iceweasel

lol you guys have good eyes :D

38 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:19:10am

re: #37 windsagio

re: #36 iceweasel

lol you guys have good eyes :D

We’re just one with the Matrix. /

39 boxhead  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:33:56am

re: #3 windsagio

The unfortunate sidestory of both of these is the administrations inability or unwillingness to stand behind people that are pretty clearly being victimized by the scumbags

The current form of the GOP and its Tea Party ilk have immense resources to disseminate their message all the while claiming the MSM is all in the pockets of the Left. They are good at propaganda. There is a large portion of folks that really believe that only FOX and the Right Wing radio arm tells the truth. They have made Obama jumpy as a long tailed cat in a rocking chair factory.

that is a difficult obstacle to traverse.

40 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:35:42am

re: #39 boxhead

They have made Obama jumpy as a long tailed cat in a rocking chair factory.

No, they haven’t.

41 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:41:07am

Obama, Pelosi urge activists at Netroots Nation to keep fighting for change

WaPo article is crap, as usual. This is the relevant reference, btw:

I agree with you, I want to do it, now make me do it.

Franklin D. Roosevelt

42 boredtechindenver  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:41:19am

re: #40 iceweasel

No, they haven’t.

I think Sully is right regarding Obama. Strategy vs Tactics. Or as he puts it,

Meep Meep.

43 windsagio  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:41:47am

re: #40 iceweasel

I think its just something inherent to him; like how he thought it was actually possible to compromise with the right and get anything like abuse for it>>

44 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:46:04am

re: #43 windsagio

I think its just something inherent to him; like how he thought it was actually possible to compromise with the right and get anything like abuse for it>>

I think he’s always been aware of that, actually. This is someone who has always played the long game.
He was highly aware of what would happen and the resistance he’d face. This is someone who is a barely-left centrist (despite the rhetoric on the right — and from the left who didn’t pay enough attention) and fundamentally a pragmatist.
He prefers for various reasons to force change from the bottom up.
Some of that is personal style, some of that is calculated understanding of the obstacles. IMO.

45 windsagio  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:51:30am

ok gotta do some work, later all!

46 boxhead  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:54:18am

re: #40 iceweasel

No, they haven’t.

I meant to say his admin. Obama himself is a smooth operator, but still only a human. But Sherrod’s bosses did jump way too fast. I hoped these folks knew Shirley well enough to not have asked for her resignation without talking to her. Isn’t that proper protocol? I just wish his Admin would be a little/lot more protective of their folk.

47 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 1:57:41am

re: #46 boxhead

I meant to say his admin. Obama himself is a smooth operator, but still only a human. But Sherrod’s bosses did jump way too fast. I hoped these folks knew Shirley well enough to not have asked for her resignation without talking to her. Isn’t that proper protocol? I just wish his Admin would be a little/lot more protective of their folk.

Sure. I just wish that the racists and freaks would quit fomenting outrageous outrages, but by all means, let’s pretend the greater problem here is Obama or his admin’s response to the outrageous outrages.

48 freetoken  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:02:37am

BTW, that right wing sage, VDH, is saying Sherrod asked for it:

Ms. Sherrod was done a disservice in having her comments edited in a fashion that did not represent what she was trying to say. Yes, but it is also not a wise thing to go before the NAACP to offer a confessional about how one has evolved from seeing oppression in terms of white culpability, to understanding it in terms of the culpability of those “who have.” In other words, the role of minor federal agricultural officials is not confessionals to lobbying organizations about the unfairness of present American culture. One is free to do it, but one is almost asking to be quoted out of context in doing so. (The antithesis would be something like a border-dwelling federal official, who had lost a relative to Mexican smugglers, speaking before a zealous close-the-borders, mostly white group about how he came to no longer see the problem in terms of brown people, but now largely in terms of poor people, white and brown alike. Now that would be an insane thing to do, and a Republican administration, battling selectively edited videos on the Daily Kos and Huffington Post, would have fired him).

That’s right - VDH is trying to put the onus on Sherrod, for being foolish enough to try to give a personal inspirational story!

49 freetoken  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:03:34am

I wonder what VDH thinks of women who have been raped? Maybe they were wearing provocative clothing?

50 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:05:26am

re: #49 freetoken

I wonder what VDH thinks of women who have been raped? Maybe they were wearing provocative clothing?

I have so freakin had it with VDH. Disgusting! He had some crazy ass rant this past week too, UGH!
When I’m done moving I swear that’s going to be the first thing I post. Forget wingnut of a mere week, this guy needs a place in the hall of shame.

51 aurelius  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:05:53am

Van Jones is a raving lunatic. Charles has pointed this out better than anyone.

littlegreenfootballs.com

Sherrod doesn’t need any “help” from this nutjob.

52 freetoken  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:10:32am

re: #51 aurelius

Van Jones is a raving lunatic. Charles has pointed this out better than anyone.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Sherrod doesn’t need any “help” from this nutjob.

You have missed the whole point, on purpose probably.

Yes, Jones has latched on to a bit of New Age-ism, but what is at discussion here isn’t his scientific credibility.

Rather, the point is the intense, irrational, and hate-filled screed of the right-wing ugly machine, which has been targeting people to stir up inter-racial angst.

And no, Jones is not a “raving lunatic”. I don’t turn to him for any philosophical insights, but I doubt I would inquire of you, either.

53 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:11:02am

re: #51 aurelius

Van Jones is a raving lunatic. Charles has pointed this out better than anyone.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Sherrod doesn’t need any “help” from this nutjob.

Sorry, could you point me to the place in that post or thread where Charles expressed HIS opinion on Van Jones?

Before you do, I promise you I can find a few, and they aren’t what you’re pretending.

54 boxhead  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:11:07am

re: #47 iceweasel

Yes, the main problem is not Obama’s nor his admin’s response. But the racists and the freaks are louder. That is a problem. And one not easily solved. Kind of reminds me of the movie The American President with Michael Douglas. He did not want to get dirty answering his critics over stuff that did not matter. He realized he had too.

Lewis Rothschild: You have a deeper love of this country than any man I’ve ever known. And I want to know what it says to you that in the past seven weeks, 59% of Americans have begun to question your patriotism.
President Andrew Shepherd: Look, if the people want to listen to-…
Lewis Rothschild: They don’t have a choice! Bob Rumson is the only one doing the talking! People want leadership, Mr. President, and in the absence of genuine leadership, they’ll listen to anyone who steps up to the microphone. They want leadership. They’re so thirsty for it they’ll crawl through the desert toward a mirage, and when they discover there’s no water, they’ll drink the sand.
President Andrew Shepherd: Lewis, we’ve had presidents who were beloved, who couldn’t find a coherent sentence with two hands and a flashlight. People don’t drink the sand because they’re thirsty. They drink the sand because they don’t know the difference.

Great movie….

55 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:12:16am

re: #52 freetoken

Most definitely on purpose.

56 freetoken  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:13:35am

That latest essay by VDH is quite an exercise is stroking the remnant conscience of any on the hate-right who might still have a bit of a twinge about how putrid some of the rhetoric has become.

In essence, VDH is telling them: “You’re right, it’s all Obama’s fault.”

57 aurelius  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:20:15am

The last thing we need to do is cite Van Jones to support Sherrod (if we want to help her, which I do). Charles very ably pointed out Van Jones’ support of causes that are detached from reality.

Charles by the way also separated the wheat from the chaff very well— which of Jones’ delusions were real, and which were unsubstantiated.

The real ones are real. He’s not someone a rational supporter of progressive causes needs to be citing.

58 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:23:30am

re: #57 aurelius

The last thing we need to do is cite Van Jones to support Sherrod (if we want to help her, which I do). Charles very ably pointed out Van Jones’ support of causes that are detached from reality.

Charles by the way also separated the wheat from the chaff very well— which of Jones’ delusions were real, and which were unsubstantiated.

The real ones are real. He’s not someone a rational supporter of progressive causes needs to be citing.

Thanks for the downding. Still waiting for the answer and links to my question. Cheers.

59 freetoken  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:25:41am

re: #57 aurelius

You’re still skipping the important part. What Jones brings to this discussion is not that he might have the “chaff” in his various ideas/positions, but that there is a pattern here of which Jones and Sherrod both fit.

As Charles quoted Jones:

But the way we were treated is strikingly similar, and it reveals a lot about the venal nature of Washington politics in the Internet era. In my case, the media rushed to judgment so quickly that I was never able to make clear that the group put my name on its Web site without my permission. The group finally admitted that it never had my signature, but by then it was too late.

We’re discussing here the nature of the beast, so to speak, not any peccadillos about Jone’s misc. beliefs.

60 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:27:53am

re: #56 freetoken

That latest essay by VDH is quite an exercise is stroking the remnant conscience of any on the hate-right who might still have a bit of a twinge about how putrid some of the rhetoric has become.

In essence, VDH is telling them: “You’re right, it’s all Obama’s fault.”

Check out VDH’s rant about ‘elites’ also— anti-intellectual anti-academic shite— bonus hilarity excerpt:

Why can’t any of our actors talk like a Humphrey Bogart, Glenn Ford, Lee Marvin, Henry Fonda, James Stewart, Bill Holden, or Gregory Peck? I’m not asking for Jack Palance or Fess Parker, just a normal male mainstream voice. I know there are Al Pacinos and Robert De Niros, but they too seem to fade before the new wave of DiCaprios. Elites talk (and probably sound) like the freedmen in Petronius’s Satyricon.

Yeah, nothing at all ‘elitist’ about that reference, huh?

then he follows up with this:


Today’s male’s voice is often far more feminine than that of 50 years ago. Sort of whiney, sort of nasally, sort of fussy.

Comedy GOLD, jerry!

61 freetoken  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:29:57am

re: #60 iceweasel

He’s gone over the edge, IMO. He’s at an age where he is getting some perverse enjoyment from playing with the half-wits who read his trash. Much like Farah, but without all the “Jesus” labels.

62 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:30:51am

re: #28 iceweasel

Really, you don’t get it?
He’s black.
Their other problem? they bought the rove bullshit about a permanent majority; they listened to Rush and others telling them that liberals are vermin, are the enemy, are traitors for 20 years; they listened to O’reilly and others tell them that Christians are being oppressed and persecuted when they’re not allowed to breach the wall of separation between church and state, and they are outraged, outraged, that such an obviously UnAmurkin guy was elected by such a majority of other UnAmurkins.

of course they lost their minds. They’d lost em long ago, but it wasn’t til they lost power as well that we see them really enraged.

I guess on a really deep level, I just still don’t quite believe how insane this got.

63 freetoken  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:31:55am

re: #62 SanFranciscoZionist

I guess on a really deep level, I just still don’t quite believe how insane this got.

Would you believe me if I said I think it’s going to get worse?

64 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:35:32am

re: #60 iceweasel

Comedy GOLD, jerry!

The guy who wrote a book about the Peloponnesian War is now being critical of elitists?

65 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:36:24am

re: #63 freetoken

Would you believe me if I said I think it’s going to get worse?

Sadly, yes. I may not understand it, but I can see what it is. If that makes sense.

66 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:39:11am

re: #61 freetoken

He’s gone over the edge, IMO. He’s at an age where he is getting some perverse enjoyment from playing with the half-wits who read his trash. Much like Farah, but without all the “Jesus” labels.

That article from last week slagging off the ‘elites’— by which he clearly means ‘academics’— reveals also some personal biases, I think. Someone isn’t happy with the academy.

67 freetoken  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:39:27am

re: #65 SanFranciscoZionist

Heh, understanding is not guaranteed in this life.

68 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:40:42am

re: #64 SanFranciscoZionist

The guy who wrote a book about the Peloponnesian War is now being critical of elitists?

yep. Check this out (i hate linking him, but it has to be read to be believed)
victorhanson.com

69 boxhead  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:41:41am

re: #47 iceweasel

Sure. I just wish that the racists and freaks would quit fomenting outrageous outrages, but by all means, let’s pretend the greater problem here is Obama or his admin’s response to the outrageous outrages.

Excuse the second reply, but I really want to let you see what I am thinking.

I love this Country. My dad was a Vet. through his service I joined the VFW Men’s Auxiliary where I donate time and energy to Veteran causes. I have a 18 year old child who must navigate the political and social climate my age group has created. I admit I have concerns for the future. It pisses me off to watch and listen to folks with a microphone lie intentionally for their gain regardless of our Constitution and the beliefs behind it. But I feel powerless to stop that noise machine. Instead what teach my son is critical thinking. I also will speak truth to lies… (but I must be careful when and how. I have friends and family I want to win over slowly) My point is not that Obama, nor his admin is to blame, but rather, if anyone has the mandate to speak truth to lies is Obama. I believe there are more “good” folks than deceivers. And we need to stand up too. Then it would not matter what the freaks and liars say. They will not be heard!

70 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:45:43am

re: #68 iceweasel

yep. Check this out (i hate linking him, but it has to be read to be believed)
[Link: www.victorhanson.com…]

Notice also that in that piece VDH is pushing the ‘theory’ that Obama’s test scores and grades didn’t warrant admission to Ivy League schools, and says that if ONLY obama would ReLeAsE TeH TrAnScrIPts, he could prove VDH’s ‘theory’ wrong.

How long til he wants the Nirth Certifikat too?

71 freetoken  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:50:45am

re: #66 iceweasel

You do realize that he is on the dole at the Hoover Institution. The Hoover Inst. is located at Stanford and technically part of the larger university there. However, just being employed by Hoover does not mean one is a professor at Stanford, something which apparently has been a sore point among some at Stanford. As Hoover got more and more conservative there appears to have been a growing rift between Hoover and Stanford.

I say that because VDH himself was a professor at a state school! That’s right, he was on the government dole and likely will get some retirement when he gets of age.

VDH is the classic case of an academic who chucked scholarship for the fame of celebrity by hawking his credentials while selling anything his audience will buy. It’s a shame, but he is far from the only person to go down that path.

72 theheat  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 2:50:58am

re: #70 iceweasel

I read that a few days ago. VDH’s on a roll, and it ultimately blames Obama.

The wingnuts simply cannot let this go. There’s a collective frenzy… something about the joys of beating a dead unicorn.

73 rwdflynavy  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 3:03:55am

Good Morning Lizards!

Today’s Simpson Quote:

Homer: “Alright Brain, you don’t like me, and I don’t like you. But lets just do this, and I can get back to killing you with beer.”

74 iceweasel  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 3:08:14am

re: #71 freetoken


I say that because VDH himself was a professor at a state school! That’s right, he was on the government dole and likely will get some retirement when he gets of age.

VDH is the classic case of an academic who chucked scholarship for the fame of celebrity by hawking his credentials while selling anything his audience will buy. It’s a shame, but he is far from the only person to go down that path.

I think worse. he’s the classic academic who felt slighted that he was ‘only’ at a state school, and who resents other academics who were not— and also, the classic anger of the failed academic who turned celebrity— at academia for not recognising him enough.

You know the saying: Why are battles in academia so bitter?— because the stakes are so small.
Kinda true and kinda not. The truth is no amount of money earned in other ways can ever assuage the failed academic’s raging butthurt.
(and ‘failed’ here is a wholly relative term; it’s all about the perceived prestige within the tiny community— and this is a community where no matter how clever you are, someone is always more clever than you.)

75 rwdflynavy  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 3:23:54am

Off to the salt lick. BBLL.

Ice, Hope the moving preps are going well!

76 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 3:24:37am

Not to disparage Van Jones, but does anyone else look for a first name when they see his name?

77 freetoken  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 3:25:41am

re: #74 iceweasel


(and ‘failed’ here is a wholly relative term; it’s all about the perceived prestige within the tiny community— and this is a community where no matter how clever you are, someone is always more clever than you.)

Classicists (proper) are not numerous in this country. At least relative to other academic disciplines, such as in the science or engineering, the faculties of which exploded in the 20th century while in the meantime the Classics slowly faded into obscurity.

Heh, at one time everybody studied Latin. Who does that anymore? Even when I took 2 years in HS (decades ago) it was very rare.

On top of that, most people in this country who study ancient Greek are in Bible schools and what they are studying is just canned recitations of the NT and comments on NT Greek. They really aren’t Classicists.

So yes, VDH was in a relatively small academic discipline and no doubt the competition for tenured position at the leading schools is extremely difficult to get.

Yet I don’t know for sure if VDH could have or have not secured such a position, so I’m not going to judge him on how his academic career turned out. All I do know is that he has turned to punditry, and very shallow punditry at that.

78 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 3:26:05am

re: #75 rwdflynavy

Hope the moving preps are going well!

Sounds like something before a Colonoscopy.

79 freetoken  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 3:26:07am

re: #76 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yeah, it took me a couple of tries to figure it out.

80 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 3:30:12am

re: #79 freetoken

I have a friend and an uncle who’s first names are Van. It’s fine when I call them “Van”. When ever I put their last name behind it? Just doesn’t roll off the tongue.

81 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 3:34:34am

re: #77 freetoken

Both of my kids took five years of Latin. Both of my kids today say it was a huge waste of time.

82 freetoken  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 3:40:53am

re: #81 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I’m not sure what good it really did me, but I think it has helped me understand English better as I get older. Especially when comparing with Japanese, I can see how the influence of Latin is so pervasive but somewhat hidden in our language.

Also, for those working in biology, the nomenclature rules are such that comfort with Latin might keep learning the rules from being so onerous.

I remember in Latin 1 class the juvenile fascination with the Latin word for bread (panis). Ironically, it’s one of the few Latin words that made it into Japanese before the arrival of the Americans in the 1850’s. In Japanese the word for bread is “pan”.

83 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 3:43:33am

re: #82 freetoken

She’s going into medicine (therapy); he’s decided to get his Master’s degree. As each get farther along on those paths, the more they will be glad they took Latin.

84 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 3:45:52am

re: #82 freetoken

Sure it is from Latin? Couldn’t it have been formed another way?

85 Renaissance_Man  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 3:51:22am

re: #81 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Both of my kids took five years of Latin. Both of my kids today say it was a huge waste of time.

I have never regretted the five years of Latin I did, even before going into Medicine.

86 freetoken  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 3:52:37am

re: #84 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sure it is from Latin? Couldn’t it have been formed another way?

The Japanese didn’t have bread. The first Westerners to reach Japan were the Portuguese, who were allowed to maintain a small presence in port of Nagasaki. So the word came in through the Portuguese language, which is of course the closest thing one could come to Latin at that time in that place of the world.

The Portuguese stayed around for a while, but the converting activity of the priests finally caused problems, and bunch of the Westerners ended up with their heads cut off.

So in the end what remained was the introduction of some food concepts, a few words, and Christianity, which persevered in Nagasaki. (And then we nuked the place.)

87 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 4:03:21am

re: #86 freetoken

The etymology there is interesting. Thanks.

(And then we nuked the place.)

Damn right.

88 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 4:05:37am

re: #85 Renaissance_Man

Waste of time is not a regret. They both found it interesting, but useless.

Up until now. Now, they’re both going to need it.

Son did four years of German also, found it more interesting than Latin. I told him to wait until he’s finished schooling before he decides which was more useful.

I had four years of English I, so, who am I to judge.

89 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 4:29:44am

Konstantin von Gebsattel, secret leader of the Deutschvölkischer Schutz und Trutzbund the largest, most active, and most influential anti-Semitic federation in Germany after the first World War, wrote to Heinrich Claß, president of the Alldeutscher Verband, the most vocal of the ultra-nationalist organizations in Germany, on the topic of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (which Gebsattel had gotten a copy of in March of 1919):

„Ob es eine Fälschung ist oder nicht – jedenfalls entspricht es der Wirklichkeit.“

“Whether it is a forgery or not — in any case it is consistent with reality.”

I was reminded of this after going reading the whole Sherrod debacle. Dedicated racists do not care whether the documents they base their claims on are forged or wildly taken out of context. It is irrelevant to them, because they have already decided on the truth of the racist premises with which to explain the world at large. And it is exactly because those premises are so removed from actual reality that you cannot, in the racist’s mind and from his point of view, prove a racist wrong. To him, his world view is true without any further observation, even though the epistemological quality of his resentments is only informed by prima facie. His racism is an article of faith.

90 thedopefishlives  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 4:40:48am

re: #89 000G

Fake but Accurate.

91 freetoken  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 4:40:55am

re: #89 000G

To him, his world view is true without any further observation, even though the epistemological quality of his resentments is only informed by prima facie. His racism is an article of faith.

Speaking of which, I just put up a Pages entry about VDH’s latest article. He’s just 100% convinced all these issues about race are Obama’s fault, and goes down the laundry list.

In recent months there has been quite a bit written about “epistemic closure”, and it’s dangers.

92 Judith  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 4:41:26am

Hm….Charles I am having trouble with this one. Certain people on the right go out and start a smear campaign with unfair details taken out of context. Someone in government then reacts in a knee jerk fashion and fires them unfairly. Yet instead of blaming the government you blame the smear tactic types?

The article you quote clearly lays blame where it belongs, on those who fire people unfairly based on stupid smear jobs. If Obama’s administration had not urged the immedaite resignation from this woman, the swearers would have been made to look like idiots. Instead Obamba’s administration has been to look incredibly weak and vulnerable.

I mean, honestly, if they made her resign over a smear job what will they do with faulty intelligence on the bomb from Iran or something equally serious. Is this the right man to have his finger on the button?

Don’t get me wrong, I do think the smear campaign is stupid, wrong and morally reprehensible. However it wasn’t those doing the smear job that ruined their lives. It was the people who fired them without cause because of a smear job.

93 freetoken  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 4:43:13am

re: #92 Judith

Yet instead of blaming the government you blame the smear tactic types?

I’ve not seen anyone here excuse Vilsack for acting improperly.

94 thedopefishlives  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 4:45:02am

re: #92 Judith

I think the blame properly lies in both areas. The main difference is that the people who did the firing at least acknowledged and offered to make up for their mistake. The people running the smear campaign are running full steam ahead with their truckload of stupid, regardless of the facts.

95 Judith  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 4:51:33am

re: #47 iceweasel

Sure. I just wish that the racists and freaks would quit fomenting outrageous outrages, but by all means, let’s pretend the greater problem here is Obama or his admin’s response to the outrageous outrages.

Actually it is. Smart people get the whole story, listen to both sides and do the right thing. They don’t fire people based on a smear campaign by horrible people.

96 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 4:51:58am

re: #92 Judith

Lots of bad actors…

97 Judith  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 4:52:26am

re: #93 freetoken

I’ve not seen anyone here excuse Vilsack for acting improperly.

Not excuse, ignore their contribution.

98 Renaissance_Man  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 4:56:55am

re: #92 Judith


Don’t get me wrong, I do think the smear campaign is stupid, wrong and morally reprehensible. However it wasn’t those doing the smear job that ruined their lives. It was the people who fired them without cause because of a smear job.

Are you supposing that if, hypothetically, the administration had not jumped the gun and instead stood by their woman, that her life would have been just fine, even despite smears and slander trumpeted from every national news source?

It is unfortunate that some politicians have not yet realised that in the world of 21st century American politics, it is no longer appropriate to always take immediate action, even on such serious charges, without considering the source. Some have not yet fully realised how all-encompassing the news media is - in that facts can now be made up out of whole cloth, and loyal audiences believe them rather than the evidence of their lying eyes or ears. This is a brave new world, where news media can create separate realities, and FOX has understood this well before those it attacks. However, that does not mean that the primary fault lies with those who react to false, slanderous, made-up news stories.

99 Judith  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 4:58:16am

I am just stating my reaction to Charles approach on this. I rarely disagree with Charles. This time I do.

Oh and I do listen to a lot of FOX radio and I watch FOX, among other sources, and I also dislike the blanket smear campaign some people indulge in here that all members of the right are racists. Some of them ARE completely nuts but not all of them. There is definitely something to the charge that you shut people up who are saying things that are true but you don’t want to hear by calling them racists. Not everyone in the tea party is a white male born again Christian with ties to the Nazis.

It’s like the Arizona issue. I spent the winter in Arizona. There is a real problem with border security that the feds are falling down on and they are not doing their job there. Instead of dealing with the fact that the border is not secure and the border leaks druggies and criminals in addition to decent honest types who just want a better life in the USA, the Feds just scream “Oh those Arizonans are a bunch of racists.” and ignore the issue which is a porous border on Federal land.

100 Judith  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 4:59:34am

re: #98 Renaissance_Man

Are you supposing that if, hypothetically, the administration had not jumped the gun and instead stood by their woman, that her life would have been just fine, even despite smears and slander trumpeted from every national news source?

No but if the tactic didn’t WORK, they might quit doing it and she would still have her job. Are you saying the feds didn’t make it worse?

101 freetoken  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 5:00:09am

re: #97 Judith

Well, a lot of people get on Charles’ case for not pursuing this or that angle to a contemporary event.

Yet I do think you are not appreciating the real story here that Charles is following. Vilsack did not create this issue - here merely mis-managed it.

LGF has been on the case of Andrew Breitbart as one of the key bad actors on the current American political scene for awhile.

The Sherrod controversy is a continuation of Breitbart’s malfeasance in the ACORN tapes.

If that’s the story you don’t want to follow - then fine. However, some of us see the turn to ugly that what I label variously as the “hate-o-sphere” or the “ugly-o-sphere” to be one of the more important political/social issues in America today.

102 Judith  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 5:00:13am

and I have to go to work now. Have a great everyone.

103 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 5:01:43am

Flying visit (in the middle of a massive list of household chores right now) :

Tennessee Lt. Gov. Ron Ramsey’s bigotry gets noticed in the UK (Charles is hat-tipped):


You have a cult

Neil D, July 27th 2010, 12:35 am

I have a religion.

Tennessee Lt. Gov. Ron Ramsey, currently running third in the state’s Republican gubernatorial primary race, thinks the constitutional guarantees of religious freedom in the US may not apply to Muslim

s:

hurryupharry.org

104 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 5:21:02am

re: #99 Judith

I am just stating my reaction to Charles approach on this. I rarely disagree with Charles. This time I do.

Oh and I do listen to a lot of FOX radio and I watch FOX, among other sources, and I also dislike the blanket smear campaign some people indulge in here that all members of the right are racists. Some of them ARE completely nuts but not all of them. There is definitely something to the charge that you shut people up who are saying things that are true but you don’t want to hear by calling them racists. Not everyone in the tea party is a white male born again Christian with ties to the Nazis.

It’s like the Arizona issue. I spent the winter in Arizona. There is a real problem with border security that the feds are falling down on and they are not doing their job there. Instead of dealing with the fact that the border is not secure and the border leaks druggies and criminals in addition to decent honest types who just want a better life in the USA, the Feds just scream “Oh those Arizonans are a bunch of racists.” and ignore the issue which is a porous border on Federal land.

First of all - please link some ‘sensible conservative’ sites out there where all these ‘sensible conservatives’ hang out - I’ve asked conservative posters here that before in good faith and none of them can think of any. It is at this point beyond dispute that the right has lost it’s marbles. However, no -one said that every single conservative is a racist or whatever - that’s a strawman that you have constructed in order to avoid facing the fact that the right has generally speaking gone off the deep end.

Second-you don’t disagree with Charles on much - just his criticisms of the teabaggers, the bigotry of the Arizona GOP, and his rejection of the right wing generally. Ok, but I think that’s rather a lot.

105 Renaissance_Man  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 5:23:32am

re: #100 Judith

No but if the tactic didn’t WORK, they might quit doing it and she would still have her job. Are you saying the feds didn’t make it worse?

The tactic, though, was never to attack Shirley Sherrod. The tactic was to make the NAACP, the White House, the Feds, and the ‘liberals’ appear to be harbouring racists, since the NAACP had had the temerity to point out the racism rife in the Tea Parties. Had the NAACP and the administration done as you suggest, and simply stood by her, pointing out actual facts, the attacks would have intensified, because the point of it was to make the argument about how the evil liberals are harbouring racists.

The point of these attacks is not about facts. It’s about creating national memes. The loyal audiences of the Conservative cult already believe all liberals are racists. Making another accusation, false or not, just gives them their two minute hate. However, if the cult media can make the story about the argument back and forth as to whether this hapless employee is a racist or not, and are they defending her correctly or not, and are these liberals really full on out there racists or just closeted ones, then they have shaped the national discussion again as a question of just how evil and racist those liberals are, and how horrible it is that the evil Democrat in the White House encourages and protects them. And that is exactly what would have happened if the NAACP and administration had simply stood by the facts.

I am, in fact, saying that the feds did not make it worse. Yes, it is unfortunate that they overreacted to the lies of a repulsive smear merchant. Yes, it is unfortunate that they cannot simply call the repulsive smear merchants what they are. And yes, it is even more unfortunate that being a repulsive smear merchant is much more lucrative, successful, and powerful than being an actual journalist in today’s media climate. However, the sad truth is that nowadays, simply having the facts on your side is not enough. Having the facts simply allows your opponents to frame the debate and suggest that reality lies somewhere between the facts and their complete made up lies.

The ‘feds’, if you want to call them that, have been actually almost exemplary. Yes, they overreacted. And then they were immediately adult about it, apologised, called the facts to the fore, and tried to make amends. An adult reaction of that sort was the last thing FOX and the cult media expected. Taking that road took the power to frame the debate away from the cult. I doubt it was calculated that way, but that is how it has shaken out. Now, instead of people trying to decide whether the ‘feds’ are protecting an evil racist (Chicago style politics! Maoists! Reverse racism!), nobody except the most unhinged doubts her innocence. Now the question simply becomes whether one believes the ‘feds’ are still the bad guys, somehow. And, truth be told, I suspect that those who still believe they are are those who think everything they do is bad. Which is as much of a win as it gets these days.

106 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 5:35:20am

re: #99 Judith

It’s like the Arizona issue. I spent the winter in Arizona. There is a real problem with border security that the feds are falling down on and they are not doing their job there. Instead of dealing with the fact that the border is not secure and the border leaks druggies and criminals in addition to decent honest types who just want a better life in the USA, the Feds just scream “Oh those Arizonans are a bunch of racists.” and ignore the issue which is a porous border on Federal land.

You want better fed work on the border? Cool - pay for it. Accept an increase in taxes.

Now, I happen to think you’re wrong about the Arizona issue. I note that crime has been decreasing for the past decade. I note that crimes involving illegals have been decreasing for the past decade. These notes tell me that you’re responding not to fact but to perception, driven by the steady drumbeat of some folk with an axe to grind. But that’s beside the point.

We’ve only a tiny fraction of the number of border patrol officers we should have. It’s not the only agency suffering this way, but it’s a glaring example. To approach the level being demanded requires a significant increase in the numbers of officers available. The only way to get them is to pay for them. The only way to pay for them is to increase taxes.

Now the reality of life and politics is that you can’t guarantee taxes are going only to this, that or the other agency. There are shortfalls in performance in almost every agency that could be recovered by increasing the number of workers. The dollars you raise will go in a variety of directions, only some of which will be the border patrol. So if you want improvement you have to accept higher taxes - at least back to the 1990s, and maybe back to some stronger eras - say, the 1950s where the marginal tax rate on incomes over $400,000 was 91%.

Are you willing to have your taxes raised to take care of the millions of problems with which we’re dealing? I am.

107 McSpiff  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 5:37:29am

re: #106 kirkspencer

“We need to trim the fat!”…”We need to increase spending!”. Its like they don’t even understand the basic words in their talking points anymore….

108 garhighway  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 5:41:08am

re: #106 kirkspencer

You want better fed work on the border? Cool - pay for it. Accept an increase in taxes.

Now, I happen to think you’re wrong about the Arizona issue. I note that crime has been decreasing for the past decade. I note that crimes involving illegals have been decreasing for the past decade. These notes tell me that you’re responding not to fact but to perception, driven by the steady drumbeat of some folk with an axe to grind. But that’s beside the point.

We’ve only a tiny fraction of the number of border patrol officers we should have. It’s not the only agency suffering this way, but it’s a glaring example. To approach the level being demanded requires a significant increase in the numbers of officers available. The only way to get them is to pay for them. The only way to pay for them is to increase taxes.

Now the reality of life and politics is that you can’t guarantee taxes are going only to this, that or the other agency. There are shortfalls in performance in almost every agency that could be recovered by increasing the number of workers. The dollars you raise will go in a variety of directions, only some of which will be the border patrol. So if you want improvement you have to accept higher taxes - at least back to the 1990s, and maybe back to some stronger eras - say, the 1950s where the marginal tax rate on incomes over $400,000 was 91%.

Are you willing to have your taxes raised to take care of the millions of problems with which we’re dealing? I am.

Wait a minute! Are you suggesting that there is a direct relationship between taxes and spending, and that if we want our government to do more, we have to expect to pay for it?

Are you some kind of dirty commie?

/

109 cliffster  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 5:51:56am

So Tony Hayward is stepping down? I guess he gets his life back, then.

110 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 5:52:33am

re: #108 garhighway

Wait a minute! Are you suggesting that there is a direct relationship between taxes and spending, and that if we want our government to do more, we have to expect to pay for it?

Are you some kind of dirty commie?

/

Apparently. Tanstaafl.

111 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 5:53:42am

re: #108 garhighway

Wait a minute! Are you suggesting that there is a direct relationship between taxes and spending, and that if we want our government to do more, we have to expect to pay for it?

Are you some kind of dirty commie?

/

Well, I can grumpily disagree with that. I’m not someone who buys into the weird idea that government bureaucracy is automatically more inefficient than private bureaucracy, but there is definitely room for lots of efficiency improvements in our government. There’s lots of stuff with downstream effects, as well.

For example, if we substantially changed the way that we fought the drug war— decriminalizing marijuana, decriminalizing possession of most other stuff— we’d be able to spend far less tax money on prisons, the justice system, law enforcement, and a whole host of other areas. In addition, those who were previously arrested could be holding down jobs out in the walking world, contributing to their own upkeep instead of it being paid totally by the state.

I am all for necessary raising of taxes. However, we have such systemic faults in so many areas in this country, we really do need to change the way we go about doing things, as well.

112 McSpiff  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 6:01:16am

re: #111 Obdicut

You make the mistake of assuming the inefficiencies are accidental. The prison industry is huge, and its benefits are two fold. Mainly rural areas are given a primary employer, and the government keeps unemployed numbers down. They also provide cheap labor in many cases. Government isn’t so much inefficient, it just has different goals than many of us assume. Remove the federal government from the economy(as a market player, not regulator or creator) and it all comes crashing down rather quickly. Keeping as many people employed either directly or indirectly through $5,000 toilet seats is no accident.

113 SilentAlfa  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 6:02:35am

This is a democracy, if OUR GUB’MINT is failing us, don’t we have only ourselves to blame?

114 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 6:06:01am

re: #111 Obdicut

Well, I can grumpily disagree with that. I’m not someone who buys into the weird idea that government bureaucracy is automatically more inefficient than private bureaucracy, but there is definitely room for lots of efficiency improvements in our government. There’s lots of stuff with downstream effects, as well.

For example, if we substantially changed the way that we fought the drug war— decriminalizing marijuana, decriminalizing possession of most other stuff— we’d be able to spend far less tax money on prisons, the justice system, law enforcement, and a whole host of other areas. In addition, those who were previously arrested could be holding down jobs out in the walking world, contributing to their own upkeep instead of it being paid totally by the state.

I am all for necessary raising of taxes. However, we have such systemic faults in so many areas in this country, we really do need to change the way we go about doing things, as well.

While we would probably disagree about the number and placement of systemic faults, I agree with the basic. I also agree with the specific re changing how we deal with drugs.

That said, it’s also an easy trap to get into. It’s what leads to the philosophy, “We don’t need to raise taxes, we just need to cut unnecessary government.” From there it’s an easy shuffle to the current belief that ALL government is too big and needs cut down so it can be “drowned in a bathtub.” (Grover Norquist, Anarchist.)

It also leads to the false economy of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Agencies and such are no longer evaluated on need and effectiveness and rightness. Instead, they are whittled downward as one is sacrificed to increase another, then that second is sacrificed to raise the first — but not quite to the level it was before, thus ratcheting it all downward.

Thus I push the “pay for it” meme. You want it? Pay for it. Don’t rob someone else, pull the money out of YOUR wallet. Or quite complaining - either works as a first step for me.

115 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 6:09:54am

re: #112 McSpiff

You make the mistake of assuming the inefficiencies are accidental.

No I don’t, since I didn’t address why they exist.

The prison industry is huge, and its benefits are two fold. Mainly rural areas are given a primary employer, and the government keeps unemployed numbers down.

Yep. Though I’m not sure whether the effect on unemployment numbers is actually statistically significant. Also, there’s a lot of NIMBY-ness about prisons— even though they provide a boost to the economy, a lot of voters don’t actually like having them around.

They also provide cheap labor in many cases.

Well, they provide incredibly expensive labor— if you mean cheap to whoever’s employing them, sure. But in the end, incredibly expensive.

Government isn’t so much inefficient, it just has different goals than many of us assume.

Sometimes it’s also inefficient.

Remove the federal government from the economy(as a market player, not regulator or creator) and it all comes crashing down rather quickly.

Remove anything large from the economy and it comes crashing down.

Keeping as many people employed either directly or indirectly through $5,000 toilet seats is no accident.

I’m fairly sure the $5,000 toilet seat thingy is an urban legend.

But anyway: there is tons and tons of real work that the government could be paying for. There is never a need for the government to gin up faked work to give to people. Sure, there’s a benefit of people being employed in the prison industry; so after reducing that industry, take the same money, and use it on infrastructure jobs, use it for police.

116 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 6:16:02am

re: #114 kirkspencer


That said, it’s also an easy trap to get into. It’s what leads to the philosophy, “We don’t need to raise taxes, we just need to cut unnecessary government.” From there it’s an easy shuffle to the current belief that ALL government is too big and needs cut down so it can be “drowned in a bathtub.” (Grover Norquist, Anarchist.)

I didn’t say anything about cutting unnecessary government, though. I don’t see how it’s an easy shuffle from me to Grover Norquist, either. I talked about changing a policy that would have beneficical downstream effects. I didn’t even talk about specifically making any cuts into spending, but adjusting a policy that would lead to a lower demand for prisons, which would wind up with us spending less on prisons.

So why would you start with that statement of mine, and end up with the evil Norquist?

Agencies and such are no longer evaluated on need and effectiveness and rightness. Instead, they are whittled downward as one is sacrificed to increase another, then that second is sacrificed to raise the first — but not quite to the level it was before, thus ratcheting it all downward.

This definitely happens— and what is sacrificed first is staff, which just overburdens the remaining workers.

However, it has nothing to do with what I was talking about.


Thus I push the “pay for it” meme. You want it? Pay for it. Don’t rob someone else, pull the money out of YOUR wallet. Or quite complaining - either works as a first step for me.

I’m sorry, but couldn’t that same exact turn of phrase be used to argue for ending welfare and any support for the poor?

I am all for people recognizing that their tax money actually gets them stuff, and that if they want expanded services people will have to pay for it— as a Californian, I know that it’s very, very hard to convince people of that, as well.

But I object to the personalization of it. Who is the “You?” If I live in a depressed community with polluted water, do we really need to reach into our pockets to pay for a cleanup of that water, and if we can’t, stop complaining?

117 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 6:23:58am

re: #112 McSpiff

You make the mistake of assuming the inefficiencies are accidental. The prison industry is huge, and its benefits are two fold. Mainly rural areas are given a primary employer, and the government keeps unemployed numbers down. They also provide cheap labor in many cases. Government isn’t so much inefficient, it just has different goals than many of us assume. Remove the federal government from the economy(as a market player, not regulator or creator) and it all comes crashing down rather quickly. Keeping as many people employed either directly or indirectly through $5,000 toilet seats is no accident.

If I may intercede here with a related, but a bit OT topic, as regards prisons:

A few years ago, a young women’s magazine published a list of US locations where the men outnumbered the women. Ladies — Here’s where ya go if you wanna find a man!

Included in that list was West Feliciana Parish, Louisiana, - pop. approx 15,000, percent of males a whopping 65% of the total!

What the magazine failed to notice was this, and we here laughed out loud quite awhile over this:

West Feliciana Parish is home to Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola, prison population 5,000 of the very worst and most violent male criminals in the State of Louisiana.

Which was the reason why the demographic information for West Feliciana shows that 65% of its population is male.

People ought to check these things out much better than they do, eh?

Good morning, everyone!

118 McSpiff  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 6:30:37am

re: #115

No I don’t, since I didn’t address why they exist.

Sorry, was basing this on the idea that inefficiency is something undesirable. If its a goal, its probably not an inefficiency. Put words in your mouth there.

Yep. Though I’m not sure whether the effect on unemployment numbers is actually statistically significant. Also, there’s a lot of NIMBY-ness about prisons— even though they provide a boost to the economy, a lot of voters don’t actually like having them around.

Its the secondary employment where it becomes key. Same thing with farm subsidies, military bases, etc. All used to inject money into the local economy. Even infrastructure projects are used for this. The idea of pork isn’t particularly new or exciting.

Well, they provide incredibly expensive labor— if you mean cheap to whoever’s employing them, sure. But in the end, incredibly expensive.

That’s exactly what I mean with all these examples. Local economy gets the benifiet, feds take the hit, we don’t have ghost towns.

Remove anything large from the economy and it comes crashing down.

And when the “something” is a key player, even removing 20 or 30% can have it all come crashing down.

I’m fairly sure the $5,000 toilet seat thingy is an urban legend.

You’d think, but anything “Mil-Spec” gets cost inflated. Comes from the same factory, same part but once its DoD approved, you’re paying for the entire procurement process, which keeps people employed etc.


But anyway: there is tons and tons of real work that the government could be paying for. There is never a need for the government to gin up faked work to give to people. Sure, there’s a benefit of people being employed in the prison industry; so after reducing that industry, take the same money, and use it on infrastructure jobs, use it for police.

In many places that would work just fine. The problem is areas now being dependent on the federal money. So we end the drug war, close down a few prisons. What replaces them? What could go there that wouldn’t be equally wasteful? You can only build so many interstates, hire so many town cops. At some point you need a primary employer, which is what prisons, and military bases and other federal jobs create.

119 McSpiff  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 6:31:03am

re: #118 McSpiff

…I have no idea how I formatted that comment so poorly. Sorry about that…

120 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 6:33:00am

re: #119 McSpiff

…I have no idea how I formatted that comment so poorly. Sorry about that…


Long comment, it happens.
Could still follow though.

121 McSpiff  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 6:33:34am

re: #117 reine.de.tout

I remember reading about one of those “Best places to live!” lists. They based it purely off statistics. Well one of the top places ended up being a Census-designated place in Virginia, basically just a ZIP code used for various companies that had their head quarters there, or something similar. Population was 0, but hey the crime rate and taxes were amazing!

122 McSpiff  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 6:35:41am

Also, there isn’t always a NIMBY-ness to prisons (although it does occur)

ADX Florence opened in November 1994. The residents in Florence’s surrounding area, Fremont County, welcomed the prison as a source of employment in a time of economic hardship. At the time, the county was already home to nine existing prisons. However, the lure of between 750 to 900 permanent jobs, in addition to another 1,000 temporary jobs during the prison’s construction, led residents in the area to raise $160,000 to purchase 600 acres (242.8 ha) for the new prison. Hundreds of people attended the groundbreaking construction of ADX Florence, which cost over $60 million.[6]

en.wikipedia.org

123 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 6:36:02am

re: #121 McSpiff

I remember reading about one of those “Best places to live!” lists. They based it purely off statistics. Well one of the top places ended up being a Census-designated place in Virginia, basically just a ZIP code used for various companies that had their head quarters there, or something similar. Population was 0, but hey the crime rate and taxes were amazing!

LOL.
Those magazines need quick and easy stories, I think, and just find infomation and draw conclusions from it without checking out the whys and wherefores.

As the local news anchors reported this story, they could hardly keep from laughing.

124 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 6:38:45am

re: #121 McSpiff

We had something similar in New Jersey a while back. NJ Monthly rated the top places to live, and their finding was that Teterboro was the best place to live in Bergen County - despite the fact that it has 18 people living there, is next to the airport, and the state is looking to disband the municipality altogether and split it up among four neighboring towns to reduce costs.

For all the reasons that they claimed that Teterboro was tops in Bergen County, they failed to rank the much larger and capable towns like Paramus, Ridgewood, Glen Rock, Westwood, River Edge, Fair Lawn, and Oradell much lower - even though all were in close proximity to the very things that the methodologies claimed were important.

125 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 6:38:54am

re: #118 McSpiff

Sorry, was basing this on the idea that inefficiency is something undesirable. If its a goal, its probably not an inefficiency. Put words in your mouth there.

No problem. And I quite agree with your larger point: many times what the government does is inherently ‘inefficient’ from a market perspective— and that’s precisely why the government has to do it; the private markets will never provide it.


Its the secondary employment where it becomes key. Same thing with farm subsidies, military bases, etc. All used to inject money into the local economy. Even infrastructure projects are used for this. The idea of pork isn’t particularly new or exciting.

I’m just saying that as long as we have pork, it can be for things that are needed and good. I don’t think we need to incarcerate as many people as we do. I think it’s rather terrible, actually.


In many places that would work just fine. The problem is areas now being dependent on the federal money. So we end the drug war, close down a few prisons. What replaces them? What could go there that wouldn’t be equally wasteful? You can only build so many interstates, hire so many town cops. At some point you need a primary employer, which is what prisons, and military bases and other federal jobs create.

The amount of infrastructure work that really needs doing in the US could last us a long, long while— and right now, of course, what we really need is a gigantic, huge, enormous push towards energy efficiency and alternative energy. That is where we should be seeing huge amounts of growth in government spending and jobs.

We aren’t, though. And likely won’t.

126 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 6:40:15am

re: #122 McSpiff

Shit, when you’ve got nine prisons already, what’s one more?

What a weird place to live that must be.

127 darthstar  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 6:49:21am

Mornin’ everyone…Here’s a perfect example of how you roast troll butt until it pops.

Michael Eric Dyson (Sociology Professor) versus Erick Erickson (Wingnut Blogger) on Howard Dean’s calling Fox News’ Sherrod coverage racist:
Youtube Video

128 McSpiff  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 6:50:52am

re: #125 Obdicut

I agree 100% that in general, across the United States infrastructure improvement alone could probably be used dollar for dollar and provide a much better, and efficient investment. No disagreement there.

But unless you plan on having roving bands of construction workers migrating across America, these improvements will, most likely be a) confined to large population centers or b) connecting them.

It does nothing to replace the UPS Prison in the Middle of Nowhere Alabama or make up for the funding difference to a now purely municipal airport that was formerly civilian/military.

Could the Fed finance a huge solar installation in Florence, CO to replace the Supermax? (Poor example I know, supermax isn’t directly related to drug trade but I figured I’d stick with one example) Yes, but now you need a transmission network in place to get it where the power is needed. Which is dumb inefficiency of a different kind.

Look at how many communities were affected by the BRAC I and II. People really don’t want a smaller, leaner fed. If anything, they seem to prefer it to TARP or Cash for clunkers.

I will agree 100% that keeping incarceration rates high for economic purposes is evil tho.

129 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 6:56:34am

re: #128 McSpiff

But unless you plan on having roving bands of construction workers migrating across America, these improvements will, most likely be a) confined to large population centers or b) connecting them.

Luckily, most alternative energy projects need large open spaces.


It does nothing to replace the UPS Prison in the Middle of Nowhere Alabama or make up for the funding difference to a now purely municipal airport that was formerly civilian/military.

Would it swap, Indiana Jones style, every prison job for a new one? No. I’m not sure what bearing that has.


Could the Fed finance a huge solar installation in Florence, CO to replace the Supermax? (Poor example I know, supermax isn’t directly related to drug trade but I figured I’d stick with one example) Yes, but now you need a transmission network in place to get it where the power is needed. Which is dumb inefficiency of a different kind.

Well, we are going to have to put the large-scale solar stuff in the middle of nowhere. That’s just the nature of the beast.

But yes, some communities that are uniquely tied to a specific, government-funded entity will be hurt whenever that entity is reduced or changed. That doesn’t mean it’s not a good idea to go ahead and do it.

Getting more people to live in population centers and not spread out all over the damn place would actually help us achieve a lot more energy efficiency, too. I love small towns, but ones that rely on single employers tend to be kinda weird.

130 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 6:56:49am

And now, the commute.

131 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 6:56:56am

re: #116 Obdicut

I didn’t say anything about cutting unnecessary government, though. I don’t see how it’s an easy shuffle from me to Grover Norquist, either. I talked about changing a policy that would have beneficical downstream effects. I didn’t even talk about specifically making any cuts into spending, but adjusting a policy that would lead to a lower demand for prisons, which would wind up with us spending less on prisons.

So why would you start with that statement of mine, and end up with the evil Norquist?

Because you DID speak of cutting unnecessary government. Reread your post about the drug war - ending it with the resulting reduction in prisons, law enforcement, etc. Again, I agree that this needs to happen, but the argument of using this cut to pay for other things is a wrongful argument.

And that argument - that we need to cut things to pay for the rest - is the heart and soul of Norquist’s argument.

[kirkspencer]Thus I push the “pay for it” meme. You want it? Pay for it. Don’t rob someone else, pull the money out of YOUR wallet. Or quite complaining - either works as a first step for me.


I’m sorry, but couldn’t that same exact turn of phrase be used to argue for ending welfare and any support for the poor?

I am all for people recognizing that their tax money actually gets them stuff, and that if they want expanded services people will have to pay for it— as a Californian, I know that it’s very, very hard to convince people of that, as well.

But I object to the personalization of it. Who is the “You?” If I live in a depressed community with polluted water, do we really need to reach into our pockets to pay for a cleanup of that water, and if we can’t, stop complaining?

I didn’t follow your logic. I said it needs paid for by increasing taxes, and you say I’m using argument that says we must end welfare and support for the poor.

“You” is more properly “We.” That said, you’re taking the argument in a strange direction, to a point of absurdism. The question implies that only you will cover the cost, that you will cover all the cost, and that you will cover only the cost. The three are completely untrue. You - and everyone else paying taxes [aka WE] - will cover the cost of making the polluters clean the water. You (and we) will between us cover all the cost. The money we pay will cover not only your water but water in all 50 states, plus border patrol and customs checks and FDA inspections/control of toys and foods and … and all the myriad things we require of our government.

For what it’s worth, I also despise the false argument of “must we make the poor pay?” No, we must not. Raising taxes, as I noted in my first post in this thread, is not truly universal. Instead it should follow the sutton rule - get the money from where the money is. I am only semi-joking when I suggest the simple tax — 50% on ALL income regardless of type or source, $100,000 per person exemption. For several decades now the wealthy have used the poor to protect themselves in arguments, noting how any tax would burden those less well off than themselves.

132 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 6:57:16am

re: #92 Judith

Hm…Charles I am having trouble with this one. Certain people on the right go out and start a smear campaign with unfair details taken out of context. Someone in government then reacts in a knee jerk fashion and fires them unfairly. Yet instead of blaming the government you blame the smear tactic types?

The article you quote clearly lays blame where it belongs, on those who fire people unfairly based on stupid smear jobs. If Obama’s administration had not urged the immedaite resignation from this woman, the swearers would have been made to look like idiots. Instead Obamba’s administration has been to look incredibly weak and vulnerable.

I mean, honestly, if they made her resign over a smear job what will they do with faulty intelligence on the bomb from Iran or something equally serious. Is this the right man to have his finger on the button?

Don’t get me wrong, I do think the smear campaign is stupid, wrong and morally reprehensible. However it wasn’t those doing the smear job that ruined their lives. It was the people who fired them without cause because of a smear job.

Yeah how dare we blame the jackass who pulled the fire alarm instead of the firemen who axed their way through several doors, sprayed water all over the computers and turned the place upside down looking for a fire for them to put out!

Really dude, in what other situation do you hold the victim of a con more to blame than the conman?

133 darthstar  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 6:59:20am

Ooh…who says Michigan Republicans can’t get their groove on?

From Politico:


BOMBSHELL IN MICHIGAN: Republican state Attorney General Mike Cox’s campaign for governor was rocked Monday evening by a report purporting to confirm that the candidate attended a raucous party at the Detroit mayor’s mansion during the Kwame Kilpatrick administration. Cox has previously been accused of covering up the event — he called it an “urban legend” — but with just days to go before the GOP’s Aug. 3 nominating vote an unidentified witness has signed an affidavit claiming that Cox was at the Manoogian Mansion for a party with Kilpatrick. The money quote: “I saw Mike Cox getting a lap dance from one of the female exotic dancers while he was present at the party.” Cox called the accusation “absolutely ridiculous.”

Well, with a name like “Mike Cox” he’ll still probably win. I’d choose Mike Cox over the other guy any day. And I’m sure a lap dance would make Mike Cox very happy indeed.

134 Judith  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:00:02am

re: #106 kirkspencer

re: #104 Jimmah

First of all - please link some ‘sensible conservative’ sites out there where all these ‘sensible conservatives’ hang out - I’ve asked conservative posters here that before in good faith and none of them can think of any.

Now who is talking strawmen and who is smearing everyone. IN point of fact I happen to think Charles is a sensible conservative. He’s distanced himself from the lunatics.

135 Judith  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:03:53am

re: #132 jamesfirecat

Yeah how dare we blame the jackass who pulled the fire alarm instead of the firemen who axed their way through several doors, sprayed water all over the computers and turned the place upside down looking for a fire for them to put out!

Really dude, in what other situation do you hold the victim of a con more to blame than the conman?

Actually if firemen knocked down a bunch of doors and poured water all over computers before making sure there was real fire to fight I would indeed consider them to be at fault for the damage in addition to the conman. NOTE: I did say the actions of the smearers were outrageous and unsupportable. I am not defending them.

136 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:05:23am

Leadership in our government would go a long way towards defining where the future infrastructure and, intend, direction of the country is headed.

Railroad expansion in the 1800s was heavily subsidized/supported by government (state and/or federal). A number of books cover this, and one comes across mentions of political support and opposition to railroad bills in histories on other subjects in passing.
(Recommend Stephen Ambrose’s _Nothing Like It in the World_ to get an interesting take on the Transcontinental railroad. Government support, political chicanery, and conflicting interests galore.)

With the internal combustion engine coming to the fore, and the railroads heavily controlling freight movement in the interior of the U.S. you get governmental interference with railroad freight rates, and also bills that promote the development of the trucking industry along with road infrastructure improvements that help the trucking industry indirectly; especially in comparison to the railroads. This trend cumulates in the interstate highway bills during the Eisenhower Administration that essentially allow interstate trucking to take off using a more efficient set of highways and compete with the railroads even more while the latter continue to be denied control to vary their freight rates.

Government can drive the issue if it wants to. Often indirectly, but also simply by supporting infrastructure development and maintenance to favor a particular industry or developing trend. So the future might be to develop transmission corridors for data, energy, and transportation which will allow a backwoods area to develop. TVA anyone?

137 Judith  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:05:53am

re: #105 Renaissance_Man

The tactic, though, was never to attack Shirley Sherrod. The tactic was to make the NAACP, the White House, the Feds, and the ‘liberals’ appear to be harbouring racists, since the NAACP had had the temerity to point out the racism rife in the Tea Parties. Had the NAACP and the administration done as you suggest, and simply stood by her, pointing out actual facts, the attacks would have intensified, because the point of it was to make the argument about how the evil liberals are harbouring racists.

I disagree. If they had not kneejerk fired the poor woman and instead simply been he ones to release the full tape THEN the ones doing the smearing would have looked back. As it now stands they look the got caught with their pants down by those in the smear compaign business.

138 McSpiff  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:06:44am

re: #129 Obdicut

Luckily, most alternative energy projects need large open spaces.

Which wide open space used has a big impact though. Closer to population centers the better in terms of transmission loses. Why put it in CO when you have desert between LA and Las Vegas? The best locations are those closet to large population centers.

Would it swap, Indiana Jones style, every prison job for a new one? No. I’m not sure what bearing that has.

Then you miss the entire point. No one is going to support job cuts, especially if it means destroying entire communities. Not with the economy the way it is, and with elections coming down to single states.

But yes, some communities that are uniquely tied to a specific, government-funded entity will be hurt whenever that entity is reduced or changed. That doesn’t mean it’s not a good idea to go ahead and do it.

Getting more people to live in population centers and not spread out all over the damn place would actually help us achieve a lot more energy efficiency, too. I love small towns, but ones that rely on single employers tend to be kinda weird.

So we’ve gone from “lets cut the fat” to a government program of encouraged population movement through withdrawal of services? We tried that.

139 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:08:13am

re: #135 Judith

Actually if firemen knocked down a bunch of doors and poured water all over computers before making sure there was real fire to fight I would indeed consider them to be at fault for the damage in addition to the conman. NOTE: I did say the actions of the smearers were outrageous and unsupportable. I am not defending them.

Yes, but you seem to feel the people who were only trying to do the right thing (fire the racist) should be equally to blame as Fox news.

As someone here suggested, if the NAACP or the government had tried to drag their feet and say “we need more time to research this before we act…” Then FOX news and the right would likely be all of them for coddling racists and not being able to see what racism looked like when ti right in front of their eyes, not believing that blacks could be racist… ecetra, ecetra…

They were in a damn if you do, damned if you don’t situation.

Serriously stop trying to blame the Obama administration for making one of the bad choices open to them after Fox and Brietbart pushed them into a situation where there where no good choices….

140 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:09:14am

re: #137 Judith

I disagree. If they had not kneejerk fired the poor woman and instead simply been he ones to release the full tape THEN the ones doing the smearing would have looked back. As it now stands they look the got caught with their pants down by those in the smear compaign business.

Did you miss the f***ing part where as Charles and others here on LGF have pointed out it took them a while to actually FIND the full tape?

141 Judith  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:09:17am

re: #104 Jimmah

First of all - please link some ‘sensible conservative’ sites out there where all these ‘sensible conservatives’ hang out - I’ve asked conservative posters here that before in good faith and none of them can think of any. It is at this point beyond dispute that the right has lost it’s marbles. However, no -one said that every single conservative is a racist or whatever - that’s a strawman that you have constructed in order to avoid facing the fact that the right has generally speaking gone off the deep end.

Second-you don’t disagree with Charles on much - just his criticisms of the teabaggers, the bigotry of the Arizona GOP, and his rejection of the right wing generally. Ok, but I think that’s rather a lot.

First of all just go back and reread several comments on this blog making blanket smears of everyone in the tea party and GOP including your own comment “the bigotry of the Arizona GOP” not the majority of the GOP are bigots, or bigotry is a problem in some aspects of the GOP, but rather ALL the GOP is bigotry “the bigotry of the Arizona GOP”” your very own words.

Second I have following Charles blog for years since 2001 I believe and it has been that very long context I am talking about not three rather small items in all those long years.

142 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:10:31am

re: #134 Judith

re: #104 Jimmah

Now who is talking strawmen and who is smearing everyone. IN point of fact I happen to think Charles is a sensible conservative. He’s distanced himself from the lunatics.

Excuse me, neither Jimmah nor I said anything about strawman or smearing. I never said anything about Charles, and what Jimmah did was point out several specific places where you and he were in specific disagreement, and state he thought that actually a fairly large region. No smears, just statement of observation.

You’re welcome to make statements, but please do not lie about what others are saying.

143 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:10:43am

re: #129 Obdicut

Well, we are going to have to put the large-scale solar stuff in the middle of nowhere. That’s just the nature of the beast.

Building those solar farms in the middle of nowhere (or offshore - sufficiently far from shore so they’re not noticeable, but which increases the costs significantly) is one thing. Stringing the power lines to get the power from the source to its destination is another.

Opposition is such that entire wind farm projects have withered because of opposition to the distribution lines. That means that viable projects for wind power in places like Texas don’t get done because there’s no way to ship the power from where it’s made to where it’s needed.

144 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:11:30am

re: #134 Judith

re: #104 Jimmah

Now who is talking strawmen and who is smearing everyone. IN point of fact I happen to think Charles is a sensible conservative. He’s distanced himself from the lunatics.

If you are talking about me - please point out these ‘strawmen’ that you allege, and be specific, as I was with you. And smears? If you think my contention that the right has gone off the deep end is a smear, then you must think most people here, including our host, are smear merchants. I have no idea what else in my post you could be referring to when you say ‘smear’.

145 Judith  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:12:06am

re: #139 jamesfirecat

Yes, but you seem to feel the people who were only trying to do the right thing (fire the racist) should be equally to blame as Fox news.

Actually FOX news did NOT run with the story. They held back on it to get the full story and weren’t satisfied that the full story was there. The woman was forced to resign a full day BEFORE FOX news even covered the story.

Sorry to blow your perception of FOX out of the water with stupid inconvenient things like facts.

146 McSpiff  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:12:45am

re: #143 lawhawk

Only real solution to this is going to come when you see super conductors able to operate at high temperature. They’ll still need to be cooled, which will most likely result in them needing to be buried/tunneled.

147 McSpiff  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:13:25am

re: #145 Judith

You do know Charles has throughly debunked this one, right?

148 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:13:35am

re: #136 oaktree

And in the end, with the consolidation of the railroad lines, we’ve got rail shipping more commerce by tonnage more cheaply and efficiently than trucks could deliver over great distances. Rail still carries the bulk of goods over long distances in the US, but passenger rail has to share that space, which means that they can’t reach the speeds necessary to make passenger rail enticing to break into the airlines hold on midrange travel despite the hassles involved in traveling by plane these days.

149 darthstar  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:14:15am

re: #139 jamesfirecat

They were in a damn if you do, damned if you don’t situation.

Serriously stop trying to blame the Obama administration for making one of the bad choices open to them after Fox and Brietbart pushed them into a situation where there where no good choices…

One good thing I can see coming out of this situation for the administration is a return to slow, steady responses. They reacted, which was out of character for President Obama and his team, because of the volatility of the race issue and Fox’s hunger to escalate any possible gotcha to Lewinsky status for the GOP this fall.

Now, when the next outrageous outrage occurs, Gibbs can simply say, “We’re aware of what people are saying, but we will not trust the word of Fox News or some right-wing blogger until we’ve got all the facts.” Name and shame.

150 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:14:30am

re: #142 kirkspencer

Excuse me, neither Jimmah nor I said anything about strawman or smearing. I never said anything about Charles, and what Jimmah did was point out several specific places where you and he were in specific disagreement, and state he thought that actually a fairly large region. No smears, just statement of observation.

You’re welcome to make statements, but please do not lie about what others are saying.

Seconded - I saw nothing in your posts that could be called a smear or strawman either.

151 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:18:32am

re: #145 Judith

Actually FOX news did NOT run with the story. They held back on it to get the full story and weren’t satisfied that the full story was there. The woman was forced to resign a full day BEFORE FOX news even covered the story.

Sorry to blow your perception of FOX out of the water with stupid inconvenient things like facts.

You want to talk about stupid in inconvenient things like facts?

I’ve got some stupid inconvenient facts for you…..


littlegreenfootballs.com

Clearly Rachel Maddow must have have access to some kind of “what if machine” how else could she have gotten all those clips of people ON FOX talking about how Sherrod NEEDED TO BE FIRED if she had already been fired if Fox didn’t run with the story till after she was fired?

Riddle me that Batman!

152 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:18:47am

re: #150 Jimmah

Seconded - I saw nothing in your posts that could be called a smear or strawman either.

Actually, I need to retract and apologize in part to Judith. Yes, you did say “strawman” in your post. That portion was not a lie, and I apologize for saying she did so on that specific element.

re: #104 Jimmah

[snip] However, no -one said that every single conservative is a racist or whatever - that’s a strawman that you have constructed in order to avoid facing the fact that the right has generally speaking gone off the deep end. [and snip]

153 Slap  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:18:49am

Just wanted to say kudos, all. Some nicely thought-out, longer takes here today. It’s a nice morning break from the long strings of short bursts.

Thanks for the mind lubricants!

154 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:19:07am

re: #126 Obdicut

Upstate NY has an entire complex of prisons serving to hold mostly downstate criminals (from NYC metro area). It’s a parasitic/symbiotic relationship - so that when there’s talk of reforming sentencing guidelines or reducing prison populations, the upstate communities take umbrage since it would mean the loss of one of the last secure jobs in the region - since companies like Xerox, IBM and others have reduced their presence upstate, the prisons are left as a source of civic pride and jobs. Shut down a prison and entire towns would likely disappear.

155 darthstar  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:22:22am

re: #145 Judith

Actually FOX news did NOT run with the story. They held back on it to get the full story and weren’t satisfied that the full story was there. The woman was forced to resign a full day BEFORE FOX news even covered the story.

Sorry to blow your perception of FOX out of the water with stupid inconvenient things like facts.

Actually, Bill O’Reilly recorded his show calling for her resignation hours BEFORE it was announced that she had resigned. And it was covered throughout the night and picked up by your friends on their morning show (that’s the & Friends part of Fox & Friends, by the way…don’t you feel so included?).

I can understand your wanting to defend Fox. They like you. They tell you this in every episode of the soap opera they call “news” on that network. Glenn Beck reaches out of the camera and cries on your shoulder, for chrissakes. The morning crew is so sweet, it’s like having the kids home from college to sit on the couch and have a big old laugh at this terrible world in which we live, may we pray for peace. And that Megyn Kelly, so cute and feisty! I don’t see how you could ever turn her off!!11ty!

156 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:23:14am

re: #141 Judith

First of all just go back and reread several comments on this blog making blanket smears of everyone in the tea party and GOP including your own comment “the bigotry of the Arizona GOP” not the majority of the GOP are bigots, or bigotry is a problem in some aspects of the GOP, but rather ALL the GOP is bigotry “the bigotry of the Arizona GOP”” your very own words.

Second I have following Charles blog for years since 2001 I believe and it has been that very long context I am talking about not three rather small items in all those long years.

So there is no bigotry in the Arizona GOP that one might legitimately speak of? If you are saying that my statement constitutes a smear, then you must consider Charles a smear merchant as well, because the bigotry of the Arizona GOP(not that speaking of that does not entail your strawman idea that every single person in the Arizone GOP is being accused of bigotry) is something that he has posted about many times.

157 McSpiff  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:23:30am

re: #130 Obdicut

I think you’re gone, but in case you come back and see this… my family’s personal experience with government relocation was in the province of Newfoundland under Joey Smallwood. There were pros and cons, but I’ll never be able to support a government program of “encouraging” community destruction except in the most extreme cases.

158 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:23:57am

re: #155 darthstar

Actually, Bill O’Reilly recorded his show calling for her resignation hours BEFORE it was announced that she had resigned. And it was covered throughout the night and picked up by your friends on their morning show (that’s the & Friends part of Fox & Friends, by the way…don’t you feel so included?).

I can understand your wanting to defend Fox. They like you. They tell you this in every episode of the soap opera they call “news” on that network. Glenn Beck reaches out of the camera and cries on your shoulder, for chrissakes. The morning crew is so sweet, it’s like having the kids home from college to sit on the couch and have a big old laugh at this terrible world in which we live, may we pray for peace. And that Megyn Kelly, so cute and feisty! I don’t see how you could ever turn her off!!11ty!

Wow… you convinced me… I need to watch Fox.

159 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:24:01am

re: #156 Jimmah

(note that speaking of that does not entail your strawman idea that every single person in the Arizone GOP is being accused of bigotry)

PIMF

160 darthstar  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:24:21am

re: #153 Slap

Just wanted to say kudos, all. Some nicely thought-out, longer takes here today. It’s a nice morning break from the long strings of short bursts.

Thanks for the mind lubricants!

Speaking of which…all this talk of Fox news and nobody noticed my clip above about Mike Cox getting a lap dance. Talk about a mind lubricant!

161 darthstar  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:25:37am

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

Wow… you convinced me… I need to watch Fox.

I said they like Judith, Walter…they speak to her. I didn’t say they liked you. :)

162 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:28:01am

re: #152 kirkspencer

You don’t need to apologise - she was at that point accusing us of employing strawmen, not of mentioning hers.

163 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:33:56am

Time for me to disappear back into the shadowy world of household chores from which I came.

Leaving you with some classic dark humour from dear old Blighty:

Jam - “It’s About Ryan”

Youtube Video

164 albusteve  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:37:19am

re: #160 darthstar

Speaking of which…all this talk of Fox news and nobody noticed my clip above about Mike Cox getting a lap dance. Talk about a mind lubricant!

why, that’s even more lame than the rest of this garbage

165 Political Atheist  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:39:07am

Change up-
Know anyone about to buy gold out of ODS? Show them this Page. It has a compelling chart with todays’ dramatic fall in the gold price.

166 darthstar  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:40:21am

re: #164 albusteve

why, that’s even more lame than the rest of this garbage

steeerrriiike!

167 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:40:38am

I was pretty skeptical of Van Jones at the time but didn’t really follow the story closely. It seems very likely with what we’ve seen recently that he was smeared unfairly.

168 darthstar  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:42:37am

re: #165 Rightwingconspirator

Change up-
Know anyone about to buy gold out of ODS? Show them this Page. It has a compelling chart with todays’ dramatic fall in the gold price.

This is great news if you own stock in Goldline.com. Your product costs just went down 2% while your retail prices remained steady.

169 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:42:50am

re: #165 Rightwingconspirator

Change up-
Know anyone about to buy gold out of ODS? Show them this Page. It has a compelling chart with todays’ dramatic fall in the gold price.

There has been some talk of a gold bubble for a while now. I’m not sure how accurate the predictions of a gold crash are.

170 Political Atheist  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:45:33am

re: #167 Killgore Trout

I was pretty skeptical of Van Jones at the time but didn’t really follow the story closely. It seems very likely with what we’ve seen recently that he was smeared unfairly.

The Sherrod case is far more clear than that one. Van Jones espoused some very far left views along the way. How much that should have been held against him is the question. I submit this, about Van Jones re-emergence.

Excerpt
In giving him the NAACP’s President’s Award, Jealous referred to Jones’s missteps, including political statements made years ago. Yes, it was a misstep to sign a 911truth.org petition. But Jones repudiated his signature and said the petition’s wording didn’t then and doesn’t now represent his views. In a saner political environment, that would have been the end of it. Or, as the NAACP’S Jealous put it, “we can never afford to forget that a defining trait of our country is our collective capacity to practice forgiveness and celebrate redemption. This is a nation built on second chances.”

171 Political Atheist  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:48:59am

re: #169 Killgore Trout

There has been some talk of a gold bubble for a while now. I’m not sure how accurate the predictions of a gold crash are.

I’m on record, in many places online, that there is undeniably a bubble. The question is how close to the “pop” are we? My worry is we see $1500 or worse before we see a correction below $1000. It’s worth remembering if gold ever truly caught up with the real inflation rate of the past decades it would be $2,200!
((Calculated by taking the Carter era high and applying all the inflation since, go from that post bubble pop down to $400 and you get a number like what we have today.))

172 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:49:01am

Farkalanche on the Fox News thread.

173 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:49:05am

Man, I choose one day to sleep in and I’m already down 170 comments. Morning Honcos.

174 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:53:05am

re: #169 Killgore Trout

The move on gold at 1185 to 1165 represents a decline of 1.7%. That’s hardly the sign of the end times. However, the prices are off the high of 1257 set back in June - as the charts here show (you’ll have to click through to the 1 year chart). The charts for all other periods show a serious runup in prices of gold since they suffered serious declines following the 1979-1983 spike. Prices were in the 350-400 range for most of the ensuing period, but began a runup in 2004, which sharply increased in 2007-2009.

175 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:54:12am

re: #174 lawhawk

Oh, but if there is a crash in gold - it will benefit jewelers and those looking to buy jewelery since they’ve been hit hard by the price runup.

176 prairiefire  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:54:18am

re: #127 darthstar

Whine, whine, whine. Erick, the red headed pant load.

177 KingKenrod  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:56:17am

re: #165 Rightwingconspirator

Change up-
Know anyone about to buy gold out of ODS? Show them this Page. It has a compelling chart with todays’ dramatic fall in the gold price.

Glenn Beck: The government wants all your gold!

178 Political Atheist  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:57:14am

re: #174 lawhawk

We should recall the “gold doldrums” when it just laid there below $300! It was so undervalued it sparked really (sorry ladies!) truly awful jewelry design trends. “Pink Ice” (colored CZ) and 10kt took over the traditional “costume” or “fashion” jewelry showcase space. Bounced silver right out as a near trash metal like brass.

179 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:59:41am

re: #177 KingKenrod

Glenn Beck: The government wants all your gold!

Na, they just want to tax it.
moneynews.com

180 darthstar  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 7:59:49am

re: #176 prairiefire

Whine, whine, whine. Erick, the red headed pant load.

It’s a pretty sweet smack-down. I should probably put it on a page…or maybe someone else will.

181 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:00:02am

I’m thinking of something Robert Townsend wrote in Up The Organization.

Make sure your reporting system is reasonably clean and effective before you automate. Otherwise your new computer will just speed up the mess.

The internet has “sped up the mess.” It’s highlighted and expanded the cracks in society. Luckily, like Mr. Jones says, our society will adapt to it.

Whether it adapts in time is another question altogether.

182 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:01:32am

And now for a momentary diversion.

Old Faithful in action.

Youtube Video

I think I’m getting the handle on making and uploading videos - this is one of the ones I took while in Yellowstone this past May.

183 Political Atheist  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:01:32am

re: #179 Cannadian Club Akbar

Hold on. That is not a new tax! It is a new reporting requirement to stop people from cheating on the gains!Why it was in Obama care instead of the Wall strett bill is pure politics. But can we please not call it a new tax?

184 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:05:16am

re: #182 lawhawk

Nice!

185 darthstar  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:06:08am

re: #182 lawhawk

I saw Old Faithful once…pretty nice quality video, and a perfect day for it you had. My wife and I stopped in Iceland a few years back for a couple of days on a return trip from France and went to see the geysers there. They were, shall we say, roped off a little closer to the source than they could have been. People who stood next to the ropes got sprayed pretty severely.

186 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:07:11am

re: #160 darthstar

Speaking of which…all this talk of Fox news and nobody noticed my clip above about Mike Cox getting a lap dance. Talk about a mind lubricant!

Maybe because your comment is a prime example of the total lack of anyone, right, left or otherwise, to address actual important political and policy issues. It’s become a culture of “gotcha,” an activity that takes the metal prowess of a slug. What was at one time chatter and rag chewing that was relegated to drunks at the bar, coffee clutches or the unintelligible ramblings of “I am Napoleon” patients in mental institutions, now this sort of punditry has gone mainstream.

And what are we accomplishing in accepting this chafe and digesting this pablum? We are missing the real outrage, the real problem, we’ve fell hook, line an sinker for these deflections, while the powers to be scarf up our money and our freedoms.

The culture of “gotcha” is an easy game to play, we’ve all been given the time and tools to participate, the internet, the forums, the blogs, before it’s been ripped off and thrown up against the wall, we know the color of the condom that Mr. Politician just finished using on his congressional aid. We feel in powered with our ability to grab a sound bite, host it minutes to the world and then not even pay attention to the person behind us, holding the cell phone that will catch us. We’ve all become thought police, but we abuse this technology to score cheap points and send tingles up our legs.

It’s really come down to them against us. And the only thing that is going to give us any say in the matter, the only hope that we can actually effect change is if we put blatant partisanship on the back burner and start looking for some common ground. Because if we don’t, if we continue to spin our own private culture of “personal celebrity,” tweeting along with the millions of tweeters, finding friends among marketed virtual buddies, our ability to govern ourselves is going to permanently vanish and we will become meaningless and ineffective.

187 darthstar  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:10:37am

re: #183 Rightwingconspirator

Hold on. That is not a new tax! It is a new reporting requirement to stop people from cheating on the gains!Why it was in Obama care instead of the Wall strett bill is pure politics. But can we please not call it a new tax?

The lie is much more fun to complain about. Not that I’m calling CCA a liar…he’s just repeating what he’s been fed.

Preemptive peace offering.

188 darthstar  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:11:45am

re: #186 Walter L. Newton

Here

189 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:11:48am

re: #183 Rightwingconspirator

From the link:
Pat Heller, who owns Liberty Coin Service in Lansing, Mich., deals with around 1,000 customers every week and estimates that he will be filling out between 10,000 and 20,000 tax forms per year after the new law takes effect.

“I’ll have to hire two full-time people just to track all this stuff, which cuts into my profitability,” Heller told ABC.

Gotta pay taxes on the new employees.

190 darthstar  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:12:37am

re: #189 Cannadian Club Akbar

From the link:
Pat Heller, who owns Liberty Coin Service in Lansing, Mich., deals with around 1,000 customers every week and estimates that he will be filling out between 10,000 and 20,000 tax forms per year after the new law takes effect.

“I’ll have to hire two full-time people just to track all this stuff, which cuts into my profitability,” Heller told ABC.

Gotta pay taxes on the new employees.

Taxes create jobs!

191 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:12:50am

re: #185 darthstar

Yeah, we had some spectacular weather - and I’ll probably post another Old Faithful vid taken at sunset at some point.

My favorite geyser was probably Steamboat, which was busy gurgling and sending up plumes about 40-60 feet when we were there - but you could get a whole lot closer (and did get misted by some of the outflow). If Steamboat was in a full eruption, it could go 200-300 feet high (or more) but it hasn’t done that since 2005.

192 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:15:11am

re: #187 darthstar

You realize that bottle is plastic. Why do you hate the environment?
//

193 ShaunP  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:16:46am

re: #192 Cannadian Club Akbar

You realize that bottle is plastic. Why do you hate the environment?
//

Beer in a plastic bottle, ugh…

194 darthstar  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:16:55am

re: #192 Cannadian Club Akbar

You realize that bottle is plastic. Why do you hate the environment?
//

The otter has no opposable thumb. Chewing through glass is impossible. How else is it supposed to enjoy the refreshing flavor of Bud Light?

195 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:17:04am

re: #188 darthstar

Here

Yawn.

196 darthstar  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:18:56am

re: #195 Walter L. Newton

Yawn.

Oh, Walter…

197 Political Atheist  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:22:24am

re: #189 Cannadian Club Akbar

I call BS on him. We will sort this out where I work, with some software that automates the process. But hiring is good! Watch and see if coin premiums even change. They might go up a bit.

198 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:23:09am

re: #196 darthstar

Oh, Walter…

I’m going to the post office to mail a very nice choker to a Lizard who has a wonderful taste in handcrafted jewelry… BBIAB…

199 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:29:30am

Alright. These dishes aren’t gonna wash themselves. And no one is gonna make my lunch. Then a day of hell work. See ya’ll tonight.

200 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:35:17am

UK Prime Minister David Cameron: Gaza is a prison.

UK Prime Minister David Cameron has condemned the blockade of the Gaza Strip, describing the territory as a “prison camp”.

He also criticised Israel for launching an attack on a convoy transporting Turkish activists and aid to Gaza. Nine Turkish citizens died in the raid.

He was speaking to an audience of businessmen during a visit to Ankara.

The Israeli embassy in London said Gazans were prisoners of Palestinian militant Islamist group Hamas.

Israel and Egypt enforce a blockade on Gaza which restricts goods and people from coming in or out freely.

“Gaza cannot and must not be allowed to remain a prison camp,” Mr Cameron said.

Really? It’s a prison camp? When you start criticizing Hamas and the Gazans for the actions that included 10,000 rockets fired at Israel upon Israel’s withdrawal in 2005, get back to me.

201 Pie-onist Overlord  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:41:44am

re: #200 lawhawk

UK Prime Minister David Cameron: Gaza is a prison.

Really? It’s a prison camp? When you start criticizing Hamas and the Gazans for the actions that included 10,000 rockets fired at Israel upon Israel’s withdrawal in 2005, get back to me.

Scenes from the Gaza prison.

The horror. The horror!

202 laZardo  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:42:32am

re: #200 lawhawk

“Well, they don’t have a choice, do they?”

/getting jaws of life to pry palm from face.

//also good evening.

203 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:49:55am

I mocked the wingnuts for claiming victory after their stupid attacks on Sharrod but it looks like they did win after all…..
Hoyer ‘Very Disappointed’ That USDA Race Settlement Stripped From War Bill


House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer said today that he is “very disappointed” that senators struck settlement funds for African-American farmers who faced discrimination from a supplemental spending bill his chamber passed earlier this year.

The funds, known at the Pigford II settlement, are intended to compensate farmers for long-standing racial discrimination they faced from USDA that, in many cases, resulted in the loss of their farms. The settlement achieved a level of publicity last week after some conservatives attempted to use the firing of Shirley Sherrod to claim that the settlement procedures had led to fraud.


They won. I stand corrected.

204 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:52:41am

re: #203 Killgore Trout

I mocked the wingnuts for claiming victory after their stupid attacks on Sharrod but it looks like they did win after all…
Hoyer ‘Very Disappointed’ That USDA Race Settlement Stripped From War Bill


They won. I stand corrected.

Where the hell are all our Tranzi Totalitarian Progressive Democrats when we need them?

205 laZardo  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 8:52:54am

re: #203 Killgore Trout

The funds, known at the Pigford II settlement, are intended to compensate farmers for long-standing racial discrimination they faced from USDA that, in many cases, resulted in the loss of their farms. The settlement achieved a level of publicity last week after some conservatives attempted to use the firing of Shirley Sherrod to claim that the settlement procedures had led to fraud.

And I still wonder exactly how conservatism isn’t racism.

206 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 9:02:03am

re: #200 lawhawk

UK Prime Minister David Cameron: Gaza is a prison.

Really? It’s a prison camp? When you start criticizing Hamas and the Gazans for the actions that included 10,000 rockets fired at Israel upon Israel’s withdrawal in 2005, get back to me.

Is the “wardens office” in that new shopping mall?

207 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 9:04:16am

re: #205 laZardo

And I still wonder exactly how conservatism isn’t racism.

Because, conservatism doesn’t have racism as part of it’s political philosophy, but you will find conservatives who do… big difference, don’t you think? Or is your assignment today to paint with a broad brush?

208 laZardo  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 9:05:14am

re: #207 Walter L. Newton

Because, conservatism doesn’t have racism as part of it’s political philosophy, but you will find conservatives who do… big difference, don’t you think? Or is your assignment today to paint with a broad brush?

And quite gratuitously. In the case of the right wing in America today, with cases like Shirley Sherrod and Van Jones, they’re just stepping right up to be painted.

209 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 9:08:23am

NYS GOP stupidity continues. The GOP candidate for governor, Rick Lazio, wants to debate Andy Cuomo over the Cordoba House proposal.

Good luck with that. What part of the 1st Amendment does Lazio not understand? Cuomo can’t comment on an investigation if he undertakes one, but so far he’s declined to do so.

Lazio is left plumbing this issue because he feels heat from Paladino?

And with all the other issues facing the state, this is the one that Lazio wants to focus on? Sheesh. You know the issues by now - a state budget that still hasn’t been finalized four months after it was due (April 1). A multibillion dollar deficit. The failure to fund MTA has meant threats of still more fare hikes and service cuts. Pension funding obligations that go unfulfilled. Etc.

210 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 9:08:48am

re: #206 Walter L. Newton

I think it was in the spa that Alouette posted above.

211 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 9:17:50am

re: #210 lawhawk

I think it was in the spa that Alouette posted above.

Sorry.

212 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 9:18:59am

re: #208 laZardo

And quite gratuitously. In the case of the right wing in America today, with cases like Shirley Sherrod and Van Jones, they’re just stepping right up to be painted.

Figures… you have substituted a “national enquirer” sort of dialog for meaningful discourse.

213 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 9:19:27am

So, we’ve now reached the point in this country where burning books (the Koran, non-KJV bibles) is no longer fun enough. People are making and burning effigies again.

These little Volksfests that are gaining new popularity have one point, and one point only: to stir up mob hatred.

Back in the early Naughties, a guy I worked with got fired. He was mad because he was in the process of staging a palace coup against the boss, and got caught at plotting, so instead of stepping into the top job he found himself on the street, polishing his résumé, without a recommendation.

So he fires off an email to everyone he knew in the company inviting us all to a barbecue where the main attraction would be a life-sized effigy of The Boss, for spitting and pissing on, stabbing with knives, and ultimately, burning.

Gee, what a great idea! Why don’t you include a blow-up doll made up to look like his wife, and a few other dollies to represent his three children?

This guy went from having some sympathy to no one among his former colleagues wanting to be seen on the same block with him.

Fire ‘em up! Show us who you really are!

214 laZardo  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 9:22:21am

re: #212 Walter L. Newton

Figures… you have substituted a “national enquirer” sort of dialog for meaningful discourse.

That’s the discourse they and the majority of the conservative viewing audience want. Unfortunately, in this internet age where all discourse has to be fit into 140-character tweets, that’s the kind that produce results (i.e. in Killgore’s post).

215 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 9:23:57am

re: #138 McSpiff


Which wide open space used has a big impact though. Closer to population centers the better in terms of transmission loses. Why put it in CO when you have desert between LA and Las Vegas? The best locations are those closet to large population centers.

Denver metro area actually does have a lot of people. If we could get solar enough to supply that, it’d be huge. In addition, one of the reasons for dispersed power emplacements is for electric vehicle refueling.

Then you miss the entire point. No one is going to support job cuts, especially if it means destroying entire communities. Not with the economy the way it is, and with elections coming down to single states.

I don’t miss that point. I didn’t, and never intended to, address that point.

So we’ve gone from “lets cut the fat” to a government program of encouraged population movement through withdrawal of services? We tried that.

No, not at all through withdrawal of services. In the least. I didn’t say anything amounting to that at all. I said that “keep the community alive” isn’t actually a reason to keep a wasteful prison open or a coal plant open or anything else.

216 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 9:29:18am

re: #131 kirkspencer

Because you DID speak of cutting unnecessary government.

I don’t even think that’s a phrase that makes sense, so no, I really didn’t.


Reread your post about the drug war - ending it with the resulting reduction in prisons, law enforcement, etc. Again, I agree that this needs to happen, but the argument of using this cut to pay for other things is a wrongful argument.

Prisons are mostly private. It’d actually be cutting government spending, mostly, not government. The reduction in federal prison population would be nice, too, but it’s mostly money paid from the government to private entities.

I’m not sure why you think saying my argument is ‘wrongful’ without explanation is going to do any good.


I didn’t follow your logic. I said it needs paid for by increasing taxes, and you say I’m using argument that says we must end welfare and support for the poor.

I said it could be used, the same phraseology, as anti-entitlement rhetoric: YOU want a government service? YOU pay for it!

And that argument - that we need to cut things to pay for the rest - is the heart and soul of Norquist’s argument.

But I didn’t say that. I said that we should cut the prison stuff, because it’s wasteful and bad on every level, and that would have the beneficial effect of allowing us to pay for other things.

You do know that comparing me to Norquist is incredibly insulting, right?

“You” is more properly “We.” That said, you’re taking the argument in a strange direction, to a point of absurdism.

No, you’re just not getting me. Which is fine; maybe I’m not explaining myself well. No need to claim that it’s absurd.

You - and everyone else paying taxes [aka WE] - will cover the cost of making the polluters clean the water.

That’s my point. Not you— we. I’m glad you saw the problem, but I’m unsure why you don’t get that that’s what I was pointing out— you should have said we, not you.

For what it’s worth, I also despise the false argument of “must we make the poor pay?”

I didn’t make that argument, either.

217 b_sharp  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 10:16:56am

re: #104 Jimmah

First of all - please link some ‘sensible conservative’ sites out there where all these ‘sensible conservatives’ hang out - I’ve asked conservative posters here that before in good faith and none of them can think of any. It is at this point beyond dispute that the right has lost it’s marbles. However, no -one said that every single conservative is a racist or whatever - that’s a strawman that you have constructed in order to avoid facing the fact that the right has generally speaking gone off the deep end.

Second-you don’t disagree with Charles on much - just his criticisms of the teabaggers, the bigotry of the Arizona GOP, and his rejection of the right wing generally. Ok, but I think that’s rather a lot.

Judith probably considers Small Dead Animals a hang-out for sensible conservatives. Don’t go there, its just the FreeRepublic of the north.

218 b_sharp  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 10:32:18am

re: #134 Judith

re: #104 Jimmah

Now who is talking strawmen and who is smearing everyone. IN point of fact I happen to think Charles is a sensible conservative. He’s distanced himself from the lunatics.

You didn’t answer Jimmah’s question, and the portion of his comment you quoted was indeed that, a question. It wasn’t a strawman, and it wasn’t a smear.

219 rduke305  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 4:52:59pm

I’m getting so d**n tired of all of this blogosphere s**t. Maybe Van Jones did sign a 9/11 truther petition…I don’t agree with the man and I don’t agree that someone with such views, unsubstantiated or not, should get a job in the administration where his dictum/views become policy without consent and approval. I also don’t agree with the characterization of GatewayPundit/Jim Hoft as a right wing race baiter, nazi storm trooper, eater of babies and kittens, etc., Granted…he stretches right and I read both blogs regularly. But he’s not a criminal. I’m intelligent enough to make my own choices. Could everyone stick to the facts instead of the invective.

This is supposed to be the “new journalism” after all.

If I can’t read my newspaper, at least I’d like to read my blogs on the web-book on the toilet in peace.

Does anyone remember “Jewish Jokes for the John?”

EVERYONE…GET A GRIP!!!!!

Sheesh.

220 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 27, 2010 5:21:50pm

re: #219 rduke305

I’m getting so d**n tired of all of this blogosphere s**t.

So go away. Apparently one comment per year is a bit much for you.

221 rduke305  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:30:12pm

r: #220 wrnchwnch

Wll….g bck t yr mstrbtrm, Wrnchwrnch, nd wt fr nthr n nxt yr… prms ‘ll kp y n mnd. Th frqncy f my bsrvtns nd psts s nt grmn t NY tpcs ndr dscssn. r y s dssd y hv t chck bck s t th lst tm pstd? ‘m nttld t rd bt nt cmmnt, h? G spk Klngn t smbdy.

222 rduke305  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 1:40:24pm

Apologies…failed to notice you were a WrenchWench as opposed to a Wrenchwrench. I do believe in chivalry.

223 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 28, 2010 8:29:55pm

re: #221 rduke305

Wll…g bck t yr mstrbtrm, Wrnchwrnch, nd wt fr nthr n nxt yr… prms ‘ll kp y n mnd. Th frqncy f my bsrvtns nd psts s nt grmn t NY tpcs ndr dscssn. re y s dssd y hv t chck bck s t th lst tm pstd? ‘m nttld t rd bt nt cmmnt, h? G spk Klngn t smbdy.

GAZE


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