Video: Heatwave

Charles

EnvironmentJuly 2010 • Views: 5,201

The latest Climate Denial Crock of the Week video from environmentalist Peter Sinclair comes in two parts.

Youtube Video

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117 comments

Cato the Elder Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:32:05pm

I could write a poem mocking humanity for its AGW denial, but to whom would it be addressed? All the excess people? The oil company execs, who provide all the excess people with what they’re all eager to buy? Gaia, the bitch-goddess? Or maybe my air conditioners?

I’ll be back with my mockery when there’s something or someone who will feel the sting.

goddamnedfrank Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:33:56pm

Misanthropy, it’s what’s for dinner.

freetoken Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:36:46pm

Checking around the blogosphere and the news sites online, one can find copious, voluminous, denial of the most basic of science observations.

Why is that so?

Over on WeatherUndergroud, Jeff Masters has a detailed review of James Hansen’s book: Storms of My Grandchildren by Dr. James Hansen

Now, the commenters over on WeatherUnderground have always had a hard core AGW-denial group, even though Jeff et. al. keep serving up the data.

Here is one of the comments to Master’s latest entry:

5186. SeaMule 3:51 AM GMT on July 29, 2010
after reading Dr Master’s comments on the book, here is my take on Earth’s future.

We are not alone. I don’t for a second believe this earth, this wonderfully created earth…happened by chance.

We don’t have to worry about the earth being destroyed by greed or incompetence. Mankind is incapable, and certainly too divided…to collect his thoughts and plans to one benevolent goal. Too many divisive countries, that all try to “get all they can get”….from earth’s resources. China will pass the US this year in using fossil fuels. If the fears of CO2 emissions are real….and scientific….then why would government NOT do something? Because it is too divided. with special interest groups…with individual agendas inspired more by self interests and not the public good…..to what end? As I mentioned….that man, left unchecked, would eventually wipe himself off the planet by his own foolishness. Independent minded and self seeking, and full of false pride. So then, the answer? Jer 10:23 says.. “it does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.”
The incoming Kingdom of God, as prophesied in the Bible, will “crush and put an end to all these Kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite.” Dan 2:44

It will bring global peace and prosperity to all, and treat our home, the earth, as a gift from the Creator.

Well, there you’ve got it, a classic denialist. Doesn’t accept evolution either. To him AGW doesn’t matter because in the end the Kingdom of God will overrule anything man does.

This demonstrates the mindset of a large enough segment of the population to force the body politic of this country to simply avoid honestly dealing with the issue.

re: #1 Cato the Elder

May I suggest you write your poem to “SeaMule”?

Dark_Falcon Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:38:00pm

re: #2 goddamnedfrank

Misanthropy, it’s what’s for dinner.

Well, Florence King would surely approve.

freetoken Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:38:53pm

re: #2 goddamnedfrank

Misanthropy, it’s what’s for dinner.

Speaking of which, did you catch my Soylent Green scenario Pages entry about phytoplankton?

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:40:51pm

For those of you who might think that this is confusing climate and weather, not at all.

Just as the extreme weather events of this last winter were caused by substantially warmer oceans and lakes, the quite well predicted el Nino is going to make things into super scorchers.

We were warming even when things should have been cooling, if not for the emissions. Right now, we are still adding warming even when things would be getting hotter anyway if not for the emissions. Strap in kids - it will get much worse from here.

jamesfirecat Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:40:59pm

re: #4 Dark_Falcon

Well, Florence King would surely approve.

Hey Dark thanks again for being open to my suggestions on the Spirit of 68, left you one last comment on the last thread in case you wouldn’t have checked otherwise….

Cato the Elder Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:41:23pm

Misanthropy! Misanthropy!
Beware this accusation.
If you do not an answer see
to all human hypocrisy,
hell is your destination.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:41:40pm

Several dozen times, I have been asked something like:

Ludwig, what do you think is the most effective action for an individual to take at this point?

Here are my answers:

1. Get really clear on the science and the need to stop burning fossil fuels as quickly as possible.

Let’s not mince words. The science is the science. In science, there are only two sides, the correct side and everything else that is incorrect. It is not a matter of debate. It is not a matter of being “fair.” There is no second place in science. Just like a kid who writes that 3X7=38 gets marked wrong on an exam, so does anyone who gets the science wrong. Opinions simply do not matter in science. Only facts, mathematics and data matter.

The facts, mathematics and data are clear. AGW is happening. It has been happening. We are causing it. The consequences of not changing course will be utterly catastrophic. The science is not even that difficult to understand in terms of basic mechanisms. Simply put, CO2 does what it does. Feedbacks do what they do. These are simple mechanisms to understand.

Get real about what utterly catastrophic means. It means billions of refugees, mass starvation, drought, famine spread of contagion, war for diminishing resources, and ultimately billions of deaths - not to mention the extinction of many species that we like.

These changes are coming much sooner rather than later. In physics, there is no variable or parameter for mercy. The universe will, through brutal cause and effect, kill you if you do something stupid. Be real about this.

This is not what just I am saying. This is the analysis of every major scientific organization on the planet. This is what NASA, NOAA, APS, AIP, AGU, the Royal Society, The French and German academies and even many in the US military say (to name a few).

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:42:17pm

2. Get really clear that alternative energy sources exist and can be deployed. Be able to make the case for solar, wind and nuclear. Understand about smart grids and advanced battery systems.

For example, Denmark produces 21% of its electricity from wind and Germany has deployed effective wind and smart grids as well. So has the US Navy. Again, in my pages, you will find many links to these facts. Anyone who tells you that these things are not economically viable has not looked into the actual economics of this. The only “economies” hurt by this are the private economies of companies like Exxon and BP - and nations like Saudi Arabia. The technologies work. They are deployable, and the terrible things referred to in part one need not happen.

3. Be willing to walk the talk and pay for such systems in the form of taxes or home improvements - with the understanding that it is an investment and that the systems once deployed will make energy prices ultimately go down and boost America’s economy. Also understand this means being able to tell the Saudis and Iran and Venezuela to go to hell.

4. Tell people about what you have learned. Just tell them. Tell them the facts and get as many clear on the first three points as you can. The only way that things will really change is if the average person gets a clue. That is the only way to overcome the cowardice and greed in DC.

5. Conserve energy at home. Do the basic and obvious things. Turn off lights that are not i use. Fix that leaky faucet. Walk places or ride bikes for a change rather than taking the car for super short trips.

Put solar panels on your roof if you can afford it.

Buy a hybrid car or an electric if you can afford one.

If the market for hybrids goes up, then more get made.

6. Write your congress critter. Make the case eloquently and state facts.
Demand that the government make the needed changes to move us off of fossil fuels.

7. Write your local TV news. Demand that they cover the science of AGW more. Demand that they cover the consequences of inaction more. Demand that they stop attempting to create a false equivalence between actual scientists and political cranks.

8. Buy less sweatshop crap from China. They are poised to overtake us as the worlds largest polluter. We are funding it. You are personally funding it every time you buy some cheap crap you do not need.

9. Walk the talk. If you think about it, there are thousands of things you really can do. Every little bit helps.

10. Do not give up hope. Hopelessness leads to inaction. Action can still be taken.

Dancing along the light of day Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:44:38pm

re: #10 LudwigVanQuixote

Everything that we can do now, makes a difference!

Dancing along the light of day Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:48:41pm

There’s a book about a US family, that made a resolution to not buyu anything made in China for a year. And how hard it was. I’ll go off & look for the story. Basically, if it’s made in China, it is made with lower quality standards, and made by people receiving lower wages, than US workers would.

UNDERSTAND what you are trading for.
THINK about it.
Then , you can make a choice.
(HINT, Mine is NOT to provide jobs in China…)

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:49:11pm

Some science to back up my claims:

[Link: www.climatescience.gov…]

This is the third revised draft of a multi agency government report on climate impacts in the United States of America. This draft was compiled in Apr 2009.
For those looking for an easy to read and very thorough look at AGW and its impacts right here in the USA, you will not find a better document. There are hundreds of very informative graphs, and careful easy to read explanations. It is written on a level that even a politician in congress could understand. For more technical information, there are over 500 references in the bibliography, comprising the work of tens of thousands of scientists. I heartily invite you to track down any of those papers for more detailed information.
Because of the political nature of this document - out and out mortality predictions are to be inferred by the intelligent reader, by piecing the information together. However, all the pieces are there to show that many millions of Americans are projected to perish as a result of a “business as usual” scenario.
Some of the agencies involved are:
NASA
NOAA
NSF
EPA
Dept of the Interior
Dept of Defense
Dept of Energy
Dept of Health
Dept of Commerce
Dept of State
Dept of Agriculture
Office of the President

Mr Pancakes Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:49:17pm

re: #10 LudwigVanQuixote

8. Buy less sweatshop crap from China. They are poised to overtake us as the worlds largest polluter. We are funding it. You are personally funding it every time you buy some cheap crap you do not need.

.

That will never happen…… I can say that as someone who has seen my industry decimated by the Chinese. We saw this happen before in Japan, it shouldn’t be a surprise.

They are very capable of producing quality. Wanna spend $400 for that DVD player or $40?

Dancing along the light of day Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:50:27pm

re: #14 Mr Pancakes

You make a choice.
And, live with it.
Some things are worth spending more money on.
It’s A CHOICE.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:50:53pm

re: #7 jamesfirecat

Hey Dark thanks again for being open to my suggestions on the Spirit of 68, left you one last comment on the last thread in case you wouldn’t have checked otherwise…

I saw it and replied there. Thank you, though.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:51:18pm

re: #14 Mr Pancakes

That will never happen… I can say that as someone who has seen my industry decimated by the Chinese. We saw this happen before in Japan, it shouldn’t be a surprise.

They are very capable of producing quality. Wanna spend $400 for that DVD player or $40?

And the Lord said, let there be punitive tarrifs for not being more green. And there were and they were good, for the workers in the sweat shops rejoiced and the children breathed clean air and had food to eat.

Mr Pancakes Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:51:45pm

re: #15 Floral Giraffe

You make a choice.
And, live with it.
Some things are worth spending more money on.
It’s A CHOICE.

Ummmm is the US even making DVD players? We aren’t making TVs anymore.

Mr Pancakes Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:53:35pm

re: #17 LudwigVanQuixote

And the Lord said, let there be punitive tarrifs for not being more green. And there were and they were good, for the workers in the sweat shops rejoiced and the children breathed clean air and had food to eat.

I would love tariffs ……. they applied them to the steel industry…… why not mine?

Dancing along the light of day Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:53:59pm

re: #12 Floral Giraffe

Here is the link!
[Link: www.treehugger.com…]
May your trees enjoy being hugged!

Mr Pancakes Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:54:55pm

re: #20 Floral Giraffe

Here is the link!
[Link: www.treehugger.com…]
May your trees enjoy being hugged!

Hey… I’m all for it……. good luck with that.

Cato the Elder Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:55:48pm

re: #14 Mr Pancakes

That will never happen… I can say that as someone who has seen my industry decimated by the Chinese. We saw this happen before in Japan, it shouldn’t be a surprise.

They are very capable of producing quality. Wanna spend $400 for that DVD player or $40?

Indeed. When people talk of “sweatshop crap”, they generally think of clothes and such.

Pull your “Swiss” watch or your “American” iPhone apart, and the stuff inside is all from China.

Now, if all the Chinese were to die mysteriously of the blues, humanity might have a fighting chance.

Otherwise, we’re good and fucked.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:56:51pm

Some more science:

We will pass 2 meter sea level rises by 2100 if the acceleration of ice sheet melting is constant

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

And a post that includes:

1. a general overview site that covers the topic well. It is a full on freshman level course from UCSD. The contents of the site will take you appx four hours to read carefully, and the level is basic,

2. a page from the Princeton Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Lab. Do explore their site while you are at it.

3. the NASA GISS page. By exploring the NASA page you will find many discussions from the highest level - i the links to the actual papers and data sets ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTE! to the ley level.

4. a many hundred citation PNAS. It covers tipping points and why they are real and how to look for them as well as making predictions for the future. The paper is very readable and requires little advanced knowledge as presented. The mathematical appendix is available on the right, if you are interested in more detailed arguments.

Note: this is an older paper and more data has come in. All time tables are now moved up.

5. a paper about crop loss.

6. a very famous paper from Nature about observed climate shifts. It was cited over 1100 times.

7. a review of temperature trends

8. trends of forcing agents: Note this is an older paper… follow it forward for more recent and alarming data.

and much more.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Dancing along the light of day Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:57:05pm

re: #22 Cato the Elder

Indeed. When people talk of “sweatshop crap”, they generally think of clothes and such.

Pull your “Swiss” watch or your “American” iPhone apart, and the stuff inside is all from China.

Now, if all the Chinese were to die mysteriously of the blues, humanity might have a fighting chance.

Otherwise, we’re good and fucked.

And the dears make $0.10 an hour fpor their wages, IF they are lucky.
IMHO it’s all about wage rates & human rights.

Dancing along the light of day Wed, Jul 28, 2010 9:58:56pm

re: #23 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, so, you know I adore you, right?

Cato the Elder Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:00:37pm

re: #24 Floral Giraffe

And the dears make $0.10 an hour fpor their wages, IF they are lucky.
IMHO it’s all about wage rates & human rights.

In my entirely jaundiced opinion, it’s all about masses and aggregates of humans doing what comes naturally. We can bleat and cry about what may happen 100 years from now, but nobody in America or Europe, where the Chinese goods are consumed, really gives a flying fuck.

Irenicum Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:00:55pm

Just got done watching parts one and two. I’m so glad Peter Sinclair is doing this. I don’t think, sadly enough, that my posting this on my pages will convince my most conservative friends. They’re already wedded to their fantasist ideology which views facts as the enemy. But I do have reasonable friends on the fence who will take the time to listen to more complex sentences than Fox and Fiends provides. Thank you Charles for posting this and for introducing me and other here to Sinclair’s videos.

Mr Pancakes Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:01:48pm

re: #24 Floral Giraffe

And the dears make $0.10 an hour fpor their wages, IF they are lucky.
IMHO it’s all about wage rates & human rights.

Yes it is all about wages……… they live on site and their families come to visit them at the factory for holidays .

My only hope (and it probably won”t be in my lifetime) that they demand a higher standard of living which will balance things out if they succeed.

freetoken Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:01:53pm

re: #23 LudwigVanQuixote

One thing your Pages science-summary entry lacks is a historical review.

May I suggest this one as a start?:

[Link: wiki.nsdl.org…]

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:01:56pm

BY the way and for the record,

If you have an “opinion” about the science of AGW that disagrees with the science of AGW, whatever it is you think you know is covered by actual scientists in those links.

Those links are all hard science and are quite representative of the research and the actual information.

If you read those links, and understand the science, and you were one of the skeptics or deniers or just Fox news viewers, you will realize you were lied to and you will realize that you have been had by a propaganda machine.

If you don’t read those links and wish to “debate” the science, claim the science isn’t true, claim a scientific conspiracy to promote socialism, think that the middle ages were really really warm and there is nothing to worry about, claim it is all the sun or any of the normal bullshit, then you deserve any scorn you get for your ignorance and stupidity.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:02:18pm

re: #25 Floral Giraffe

OK, so, you know I adore you, right?

Right back at you sweetheart.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:04:02pm

re: #29 freetoken

One thing your Pages science-summary entry lacks is a historical review.

May I suggest this one as a start?:

[Link: wiki.nsdl.org…]

Fantastic.

Also the AIP site from July 2009 should be mentioned,

The Discovery of Global Warming

A hypertext history of how scientists came to (partly) understand what people are doing to cause climate change.

[Link: www.aip.org…]

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:04:37pm

Oh Elizabeth Hasslebeck, you are just a really weird and out-of-touch person

Elisabeth Hasselbeck told her round table of “The View” co-hosts Tuesday that she believed that older women were being forced into a choice of lesbianism due to the lack of older men to date or marry.

Dancing along the light of day Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:05:27pm

re: #26 Cato the Elder

Well, I give a flying fuck about my socks being made by Chinese prison labor, and if they’re LUCKY the get paid $0.10 cents on the hour. That is NOT any way to make a living. I like my socks, and would be HAPPY to pay a little more, especially if the jobs could be kept in the USA. Protectionist, you betcha, on that one! BTW, my socks are made in South Carolina.

freetoken Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:07:34pm

re: #26 Cato the Elder

We can bleat and cry about what may happen …

MP3 Audio

Cato the Elder Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:07:34pm

re: #34 Floral Giraffe

Well, I give a flying fuck about my socks being made by Chinese prison labor, and if they’re LUCKY the get paid $0.10 cents on the hour. That is NOT any way to make a living. I like my socks, and would be HAPPY to pay a little more, especially if the jobs could be kept in the USA. Protectionist, you betcha, on that one! BTW, my socks are made in South Carolina.

Yeah, good on you.

But do you know or care where your DVDs and DVD players were made?

Didn’t think so.

Mr Pancakes Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:08:57pm

re: #34 Floral Giraffe

Well, I give a flying fuck about my socks being made by Chinese prison labor, and if they’re LUCKY the get paid $0.10 cents on the hour. That is NOT any way to make a living. I like my socks, and would be HAPPY to pay a little more, especially if the jobs could be kept in the USA. Protectionist, you betcha, on that one! BTW, my socks are made in South Carolina.

Socks are generally cheap……. that was an easy declaration.

SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:11:21pm

re: #33 WindUpBird

Oh Elizabeth Hasslebeck, you are just a really weird and out-of-touch person

Well, OK. What would Elisabeth like us to do about this?

And, in other wacky news, face veiling is continuing to spread in Israel. No, not among Muslims.

Dancing along the light of day Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:12:08pm

re: #36 Cato the Elder

I do.
I wish they could be made in the USA.
Well, they could be, if more folks had a protectionist attitude about jobs, rather than price.
But hey! We’re a cheap society these days, all we want is to have “it all” for cheap. And, if it breaks, we don’t try to fix it, we just buy another one.
It’s a choice we have made, as a society. I don’t personally agree with it, but, I can’t swim alone, upstream.

Cato the Elder Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:13:10pm

re: #38 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, OK. What would Elisabeth like us to do about this?

And, in other wacky news, face veiling is continuing to spread in Israel. No, not among Muslims.

I never will understand why a simple headscarf, the hijab, raises so many hackles among wingtards when the Jewish equivalent gets a pass.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:13:51pm

re: #36 Cato the Elder

Yeah, good on you.

But do you know or care where your DVDs and DVD players were made?

Didn’t think so.

Do you think you will be able to watch any DVDs post eco collapse?

freetoken Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:14:11pm

re: #38 SanFranciscoZionist

When Dawkins coined the word “meme” he had in mind the evolutionary process of selection. As a virus undergoes selection as it varies itself, and is selected according to its ability to be spread, human memes do likewise.

Dancing along the light of day Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:15:00pm

re: #37 Mr Pancakes

Buy Thorlos, made in North Carolina. Pick the cushion you need, They are AMAZING. Says the lady who has added 5 miles of walking a day to her routine. WITH NO FOOT PAIN. Bought 3 more pairs today!
My feet may not smell pretty, but they do NOT hurt!

LOVE these socks.

(OK, who loves socks???)

Irenicum Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:15:10pm

re: #40 Cato the Elder

And I used to hang with a Christian crowd that practiced the exact same thing. They just called it “head coverings.” It’s all about the “other.”

goddamnedfrank Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:15:14pm

Mike Huckabee interviews Tim Lahaye, apocularity ensues:

“Our present president doesn’t seem to get it,” LaHaye explained. “He doesn’t understand that some of the things he’s introducing that many of us call ‘raw socialism’ — it’s a different name, but it’s essentially government control and government domination of everything.”

The evangelical voice said of the political platform maintained by the Obama administration, “It’s going to work against our country and bringing us closer to the apocalypse.”

Huckabee went on to prod LaHaye a bit further on his assertion. “Are we now living in the end times, from your perspective?” asked the former Arkansas Governor and possible 2012 White House contender.

LaHaye’s response: “Very definitely, governor.”

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:15:45pm

re: #40 Cato the Elder

I never will understand why a simple headscarf, the hijab, raises so many hackles among wingtards when the Jewish equivalent gets a pass.

We have no equivalent of the hijab actually. In Israel, it is not state law that married women need to cover their hair. It is custom only amongst the Observant and completely voluntary. That is the difference.

For the record, I am not so keen on the custom, however observant I may be.

Irenicum Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:16:23pm

re: #45 goddamnedfrank

Oh I am so gonna use the term apocularity!

SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:16:42pm

re: #40 Cato the Elder

I never will understand why a simple headscarf, the hijab, raises so many hackles among wingtards when the Jewish equivalent gets a pass.

I’ve had some fairly hostile conversations with people both left and right about head-covering, shomer negiah and the like.

Mr Pancakes Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:16:55pm

re: #39 Floral Giraffe

I do.
I wish they could be made in the USA.
Well, they could be, if more folks had a protectionist attitude about jobs, rather than price.
But hey! We’re a cheap society these days, all we want is to have “it all” for cheap. And, if it breaks, we don’t try to fix it, we just buy another one.
It’s a choice we have made, as a society. I don’t personally agree with it, but, I can’t swim alone, upstream.

Yep… those days are over. If it breaks buy a new one. This is a choice we have made as a society. You couldn’t buy a US TV if you wanted to. I think Curtis Mathis was the last hold out. Believe me, I hate it but it’s the way it is.

Dancing along the light of day Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:18:43pm

re: #49 Mr Pancakes

So, are you working to change the things that you don’t like?
Or just riding with the wind?

SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:19:24pm

re: #46 LudwigVanQuixote

We have no equivalent of the hijab actually. In Israel, it is not state law that married women need to cover their hair. It is custom only amongst the Observant and completely voluntary. That is the difference.

For the record, I am not so keen on the custom, however observant I may be.

Hold on. There are plenty of Muslim countries, and countries with Muslims in them, where it’s not state law for women to cover. And ‘voluntary’ is stretching it a bit, for some of our communities. Sure it’s technically voluntary…if you don’t care if your child ever gets into a good yeshiva, or finds a decent shidduch.

The only difference is that in Islam, single women also cover.

Irenicum Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:20:00pm

On a side, but related note. Ludwig, thanks for being here. You may sometimes offer a little excessive verbiage, but you do offer us a weight and substance to this discussion that is sorely lacking and deeply needed. Thank you.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:20:25pm

re: #38 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, OK. What would Elisabeth like us to do about this?

And, in other wacky news, face veiling is continuing to spread in Israel. No, not among Muslims.

OK that is utterly insane. I repeat utterly insane.

The Law, Jewish Law, the actual Jewish Law as laid out very clearly in Halacha is that tsniut - laws of modesty are always based around the prevailing dress codes of the society you live in - and that Jewish women are to be a little more modest than their neighbors.

The Talmud goes on to explain that for example, if the custom is to have bare arms because it is hot, a Jewish woman should cover her shoulders etc…

Even the most observant of the observant (that are still part of normative Judaism, and some whack jobs who no doubt have sniffed to much paint in the desert) will tell you that in the 21st century, tsniut is a skirt down past the knees and covered elbows.

Dancing along the light of day Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:20:34pm

re: #46 LudwigVanQuixote

Voluntary, is good.
Lovely to “see” you tonight.
*smooch*
And, best wishes.

Cato the Elder Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:20:47pm

re: #41 LudwigVanQuixote

Do you think you will be able to watch any DVDs post eco collapse?

Meh. I’ll be dead long before.

SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:22:56pm

re: #53 LudwigVanQuixote

OK that is utterly insane. I repeat utterly insane.

The Law, Jewish Law, the actual Jewish Law as laid out very clearly in Halacha is that tsniut - laws of modesty are always based around the prevailing dress codes of the society you live in - and that Jewish women are to be a little more modest than their neighbors.

The Talmud goes on to explain that for example, if the custom is to have bare arms because it is hot, a Jewish woman should cover her shoulders etc…

Even the most observant of the observant (that are still part of normative Judaism, and some whack jobs who no doubt have sniffed to much paint in the desert) will tell you that in the 21st century, tsniut is a skirt down past the knees and covered elbows.

It’s nuts, but it’s also, as A Mother In Israel points out, a fairly logical next step, given how increasingly obsessive some of the haredi communities have become in recent years about tsnius.

Mr Pancakes Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:23:10pm

re: #50 Floral Giraffe

So, are you working to change the things that you don’t like?
Or just riding with the wind?

Oh …. it’s much bigger than me dear. If I could change things I’d make a lot more money. Back in the mid 80’s my industry had 5000 shops in the US. Today there is less than 400 shops. The US cant compete. Although I always buy American when it comes to cars.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:25:13pm

re: #51 SanFranciscoZionist

Hold on. There are plenty of Muslim countries, and countries with Muslims in them, where it’s not state law for women to cover. And ‘voluntary’ is stretching it a bit, for some of our communities. Sure it’s technically voluntary…if you don’t care if your child ever gets into a good yeshiva, or finds a decent shidduch.

The only difference is that in Islam, single women also cover.

First of all, the finds a decent shidduch is a stretch.

While I admit that there are some communities where a mother who did not cover her hair might arouse a great deal of gossip, at the end of the day, unless you are in the bowels of Brooklyn or Monsey, observant communities are not that insane.

There is also such a thing as Modern Orthodox.

As to certain yishuvim in Israel and Mea Sharim - OK you got me, those folks are insane. They are also a minority.

As to what goes on in an Islamic Reupublic though, even Mea Sharim is not close. There are no State sponsored police. Or a Saudi task force enforcing modesty with threats of violence, torture, rape and imrisonment.

Dancing along the light of day Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:25:57pm

re: #57 Mr Pancakes

Oh … it’s much bigger than me dear. If I could change things I’d make a lot more money. Back in the mid 80’s my industry had 5000 shops in the US. Today there is less than 400 shops. The US cant compete. Although I always buy American when it comes to cars.

True, of a lot of industries.
Hope all works out for you!

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:27:05pm

re: #53 LudwigVanQuixote

PIMF

Even the most observant of the observant (that are still part of normative Judaism, and NOT some whack jobs who no doubt have sniffed to much paint in the desert) will tell you that in the 21st century, tsniut is a skirt down past the knees and covered elbows.

SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:27:37pm

re: #58 LudwigVanQuixote

First of all, the finds a decent shidduch is a stretch.

While I admit that there are some communities where a mother who did not cover her hair might arouse a great deal of gossip, at the end of the day, unless you are in the bowels of Brooklyn or Monsey, observant communities are not that insane.

There is also such a thing as Modern Orthodox.

As to certain yishuvim in Israel and Mea Sharim - OK you got me, those folks are insane. They are also a minority.

As to what goes on in an Islamic Reupublic though, even Mea Sharim is not close. There are no State sponsored police. Or a Saudi task force enforcing modesty with threats of violence, torture, rape and imrisonment.

I never said there were. But the tsnius police have, in fact, been getting crazier.

And ‘hijab’ does not mean ‘enforced by the police’. So saying that there is no parallel to hijab in Judaism is just silly.

goddamnedfrank Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:28:03pm

re: #55 Cato the Elder

Meh. I’ll be dead long before.

You’re 2244 years young.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:29:15pm

re: #61 SanFranciscoZionist

I never said there were. But the tsnius police have, in fact, been getting crazier.

And ‘hijab’ does not mean ‘enforced by the police’. So saying that there is no parallel to hijab in Judaism is just silly.

No parallel to what it is that sensible people complain about in terms of the hijab and the things that go with it in certain Islamic regimes.

Yes a scarf is a scarf.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:29:17pm

re: #43 Floral Giraffe

Buy Thorlos, made in North Carolina. Pick the cushion you need, They are AMAZING. Says the lady who has added 5 miles of walking a day to her routine. WITH NO FOOT PAIN. Bought 3 more pairs today!
My feet may not smell pretty, but they do NOT hurt!

LOVE these socks.

(OK, who loves socks???)

Thorlos are the only socks I buy. I need the extra cushioning and they last longer than most socks. But costing near $20 a pair for me (my feet are size 14), they’d better last longer.

SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:31:06pm

re: #63 LudwigVanQuixote

No parallel to what it is that sensible people complain about in terms of the hijab and the things that go with it in certain Islamic regimes.

Yes a scarf is a scarf.

Cato said ‘wingnuts’. Not ‘sensible people’.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:31:09pm

Back to the original topic… I made a page that show cases the AIP history of global warming.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:32:33pm

re: #61 SanFranciscoZionist

I never said there were. But the tsnius police have, in fact, been getting crazier.

And ‘hijab’ does not mean ‘enforced by the police’. So saying that there is no parallel to hijab in Judaism is just silly.

I don’t understand these ultra-Orthodox the article is speaking about. COuld you or Ludwig fill me in on them?

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:32:36pm

re: #65 SanFranciscoZionist

Cato said ‘wingnuts’. Not ‘sensible people’.

And my point is that there are senible things about the enforcement of the hijab in Muslim countries that one can take issue with without being a wingut - and that those sensible things do not apply to the Jewish community world wide or in Israel in general.

SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:33:37pm

re: #67 Dark_Falcon

I don’t understand these ultra-Orthodox the article is speaking about. COuld you or Ludwig fill me in on them?

Extremely observant Jews—I would argue to a point of creating stringencies for stringency’s sake.

Dancing along the light of day Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:33:58pm

re: #68 LudwigVanQuixote

Good night, all.
Play nicely, or hit VERY hard!
Please?
LOL!

Mr Pancakes Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:37:13pm

re: #66 LudwigVanQuixote

Back to the original topic… I made a page that show cases the AIP history of global warming.

Take this out…… sounds good, but it’s not practical.

freetoken Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:38:27pm

Not really off topic: KT has done a good job highlighting the growing influence of the nutty Alex Jones crowd on the GOP and “conservative” circles, but as if you need some more evidence, note the latest entry over at Townhall by Carol Liebau (socon and former SD TV news caster):
Nip Tancredo’s War Cry in the Bud

Now Liebau’s point is purely tactical - Tancredo in a race and talking about impeaching Obama makes for a distraction - and not a moral case. Yet look at the comments she gets - hostile to her, conspiracist, and among other things citing Jone’s Infowars website!

When even a dyed-in-the-wool theocon/socon like Liebau isn’t hard-right enough for the peanut gallery, we can be assured that the self-declared “right” masses out there are going on pure emotion.

Obdicut Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:38:44pm

re: #71 Mr Pancakes

Don’t be silly. Of course it’s practical. Hell, it only says “less”.

Irenicum Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:38:51pm

I fear that with the season of instability that we’re entering into, we’re going to see an ever increasing tendency towards extremism, both religious and secular. Western culture, and now its Eastern counterpart, have been living beyond their means for decades, if not centuries. The severe counter-reaction that excessive consumption is now producing instills deep fears and extreme antagonisms built on a sense of loss of privilege among those who heretofore have enjoyed the benefits of said consumption. It’s dangerous now and it’s going to get more dangerous in the years to come.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:39:02pm

re: #69 SanFranciscoZionist

Extremely observant Jews—I would argue to a point of creating stringencies for stringency’s sake.

I see. Sounds like the stringencies have a “holier than thou” aspect to them.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:39:06pm

re: #67 Dark_Falcon

I don’t understand these ultra-Orthodox the article is speaking about. COuld you or Ludwig fill me in on them?

Ultra-Orthodox is an unfortunate oversimplification. Essentially anyone who wears black and white or is haredi gets lumped into “ultra-orthodox.” This group is not, most assuredly not, monolithic.

The vast majority of people who would get called that are actually well educated non-crazies. They may be very traditional and strictly observant - of things like kashrut and shabbos etc… but they also tend to have college degrees or even advanced degrees (both men and women) and should not at all be thought of as any particularly different than any other person who is sincerely religious.

However, as you can tell from the article, there are certain small groups who are just simply insane. They do not tend to be violent. However they are insane and have taken to inventing the most extreme expressions of the Law in ways that frequently defeat the purpose of the law.

Every religion has subsets that the sensible members are aghast at.

Frequently, these subsets are rarely larger than 100 or so people. They tend to cluster around one or at most a handfull of rabbis who are way “out there.”

There are dozens of such little groups. They never fail to make the press by being so very embarrassing.

Cato the Elder Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:39:51pm

I am an ultra-orthodox pessimist.

Mr Pancakes Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:40:15pm

re: #73 Obdicut

Don’t be silly. Of course it’s practical. Hell, it only says “less”.

Less of course……. buy more TVs from Korea…….. got cha.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:40:32pm

re: #69 SanFranciscoZionist

Extremely observant Jews—I would argue to a point of creating stringencies for stringency’s sake.

Yes I would agree with that as well - but it is more than that. There are those who have whatever OCD about being extra stringent and then there are utter whackos. You linked to a story about some utter whackos.

Obdicut Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:41:17pm

re: #78 Mr Pancakes

Less of course… buy more TVs from Korea… got cha.

What’s your deal, dude? Try making a straightforward point, not a passive one.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:41:50pm

re: #72 freetoken

Not really off topic: KT has done a good job highlighting the growing influence of the nutty Alex Jones crowd on the GOP and “conservative” circles, but as if you need some more evidence, note the latest entry over at Townhall by Carol Liebau (socon and former SD TV news caster):
Nip Tancredo’s War Cry in the Bud

Now Liebau’s point is purely tactical - Tancredo in a race and talking about impeaching Obama makes for a distraction - and not a moral case. Yet look at the comments she gets - hostile to her, conspiracist, and among other things citing Jone’s Infowars website!

When even a dyed-in-the-wool theocon/socon like Liebau isn’t hard-right enough for the peanut gallery, we can be assured that the self-declared “right” masses out there are going on pure emotion.

I wouldn’t take that too seriously, FT. Unmoderated comment sections attract haters and where haters are, sane people aren’t. Any unmoderated comment section on politics will fill up with hate, regardless of the mood or sanity of the party of the people posting the comments.

Obdicut Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:42:05pm

re: #76 LudwigVanQuixote

There are also an unfortunately large number of them who define Jewishness in terms of Judaism.

This is a lot of the tension inside Israel not much understood by outsiders. A tension in the Jewish community at large, as well.

Mr Pancakes Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:42:26pm

re: #80 Obdicut

What’s your deal, dude? Try making a straightforward point, not a passive one.

Well ok,,, relax man…… we don’t make TVs anymore. Buy them from where less?

freetoken Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:44:05pm

re: #74 Irenicum

Limbaugh, Murdoch, etc. - the powers that be in the media business that have been hammering for decades on the American psyche about the “threat” of liberals, the government, etc. are finally getting their way. There is now a group of people in this country intent on hating the government and anyone who wants to apply governance to address issues.

What is the old saying - sow the wind and reap the whirlwind? (It’s probably in the Bible - you could look it up.)

This is just one example, though, of a bigger issue brewing around the world. KT put up the Wiki list of terrorist groups a while back. While the intent of some was to show that the majority of them are Islamicists, I think there is another prevailing attribute that has been overlooked.

The reactionaries are doing just that - reacting against the 20th century and modernity.

freetoken Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:44:51pm

re: #81 Dark_Falcon

It’s not the existence of hate in the comments that surprises me, but the migration of opinion towards the professional conspiracists like Jones.

sagehen Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:47:33pm

I saw the thread title and was hoping it would be this

Youtube Video

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:47:38pm

re: #85 freetoken

It’s not the existence of hate in the comments that surprises me, but the migration of opinion towards the professional conspiracists like Jones.

That is what we get for Fox being on air spreading conspiracy mongering BS for years - with no responsible journalists taking them on. In a better world, someone like Brokaw would have gotten up and commented on how they are just not news and ran story after story exposing their lies.

Irenicum Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:48:29pm

re: #82 Obdicut

Um, how is it unfortunate to define Jewishness by Judaism? That seems part and parcel of what it means to be a Jew. Is it also a cultural construct? Yes. But even that cultural construct is predicated on a concept that is inherently religious in its understanding.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:48:45pm

re: #85 freetoken

It’s not the existence of hate in the comments that surprises me, but the migration of opinion towards the professional conspiracists like Jones.

That is a concern, but it does appear that many (possibly most) of the comments lambasted Tancredo and supported Liebau. Thankfully, it looks like Tom Tancredo is not an effective vessel for spreading Bad Craziness to uninfected people.

Obdicut Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:48:49pm

re: #83 Mr Pancakes

Well ok,,, relax man… we don’t make TVs anymore. Buy them from where less?

How about: Buy them less. And when you do buy them, don’t buy the most massive screen available, but one that’ll be actually comfy. Buy an LCD and not a plasma screen, to reduce your energy usage. Don’t buy a TV for every room.

Buy less.

sagehen Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:49:08pm

Even though at your age, this

Youtube Video

would be more likely

BryanS Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:49:50pm

re: #77 Cato the Elder

I am an ultra-orthodox pessimist.

I thought it was ulta-orthodox curmudgeon . I stand corrected :)

Obdicut Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:49:52pm

re: #88 Irenicum

Um, how is it unfortunate to define Jewishness by Judaism? That seems part and parcel of what it means to be a Jew. Is it also a cultural construct? Yes. But even that cultural construct is predicated on a concept that is inherently religious in its understanding.

Nope. I’m Jewish. I’m an atheist. Doesn’t make me less Jewish. Makes me a different kind of Jew.

I know there are some religious Jews who feel otherwise— in fact, I just talked about that.

BryanS Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:52:17pm

re: #89 Dark_Falcon

That is a concern, but it does appear that many (possibly most) of the comments lambasted Tancredo and supported Liebau. Thankfully, it looks like Tom Tancredo is not an effective vessel for spreading Bad Craziness to uninfected people.

Tancredo is a nut who banged a one note anti-immigration message last he tried running for president.

Irenicum Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:53:59pm

re: #84 freetoken

I agree with you. But I think we’ve also seen a hardening among some secularists, even to the point of advocating violence in defense of that supreme value (see Sam Harris). And of course the death count for the 20th century is owned by officially atheistic governments much more than any owning a theistic faith. I’m just saying that periods of instability produce more extremism among many sides. The numbers are staggering.

Irenicum Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:55:30pm

re: #93 Obdicut

I don’t discount that you can be an atheistic Jew. I know several. But the roots of being Jewish are themselves religious. That’s my point.

Mr Pancakes Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:56:31pm

re: #90 Obdicut

How about: Buy them less. And when you do buy them, don’t buy the most massive screen available, but one that’ll be actually comfy. Buy an LCD and not a plasma screen, to reduce your energy usage. Don’t buy a TV for every room.

Buy less.

I personally have a TV card on my computer. My wife has a small LCD TV in her room. I do know that people love their big screen plasma TVs…… good luck changing that mindset. There’s a lot of TVs out there… and we know where they were made. Good luck on less.

Mexico doesn’t make them anymore either.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:56:33pm

re: #94 BryanS

Tancredo is a nut who banged a one note anti-immigration message last he tried running for president.

Agreed.

Gotta get to bed. Goodnight, all.

sagehen Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:57:19pm

re: #88 Irenicum

Um, how is it unfortunate to define Jewishness by Judaism? That seems part and parcel of what it means to be a Jew. Is it also a cultural construct? Yes. But even that cultural construct is predicated on a concept that is inherently religious in its understanding.

I’ve never met a Greek person who worships Zeus or Athena (although I’ve heard there’s still a few out there). Greek Orthodox Christians are more common, but following that faith is not what makes them Greek. If they’re of Greek descent, and proud of the Parthenon and the Olympics and they love Aeschylus and they can do the funny dance and throw plates and cook souvlaki, you’d never dare care them “not really greek” even if they’re atheist or buddhist or protestant.

100

BryanS Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:58:33pm

re: #98 Dark_Falcon

Agreed.

Gotta get to bed. Goodnight, all.

night

101

freetoken Wed, Jul 28, 2010 10:59:24pm

re: #89 Dark_Falcon

Liebau has her supporters, but again they are tacticians.

That is, the problem with Tancredo in many of their eyes is that he will keep them from victory, not the fundamental problem of Tancredo’s immorality.

102

Obdicut Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:00:05pm

re: #96 Irenicum

I don’t discount that you can be an atheistic Jew. I know several. But the roots of being Jewish are themselves religious. That’s my point.

It depends what you mean by roots, but sure. That matters as much to me as saying that Japanese followed (and follow) Shinto.

103

Obdicut Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:01:19pm

re: #97 Mr Pancakes

Okay. So this is just more ‘Human nature won’t allow us to survive’ carping?

Great.

Human culture really does change, you know. Achingly slowly sometimes, but sometimes very quickly. women didn’t used to be able to vote here in the US. Black people used to be slaves. They aren’t any more.

Because people changed their minds and how they behave.

104

Mr Pancakes Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:02:15pm

re: #103 Obdicut

Okay. So this is just more ‘Human nature won’t allow us to survive’ carping?

Great.

Human culture really does change, you know. Achingly slowly sometimes, but sometimes very quickly. women didn’t used to be able to vote here in the US. Black people used to be slaves. They aren’t any more.

Because people changed their minds and how they behave.

Well again… good luck with that….. I support you!

105

Irenicum Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:08:42pm

re: #99 sagehen

This delves into the thorny issue of ethnicity and religion. I also have Greek friends, all of whom are Greek Orthodox. But nonetheless to be Greek does not automatically mean you are an Orthodox Christian, though it does predominate. Judaism has the powerful and unfortunate distinction of being both a nationality/ethnicity and a religion. That has been both its strength (thank God) and its source of continuous attack by those antagonistic to it, whether Christian, Muslim, the modern left and far right, or even the ancient Pagan empires.

Jews “enjoy” a unique place in human history in this way. They are both lionized and demonized because of this distinction. Believe me, I’ve seen both among family and friends.

106

Irenicum Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:11:09pm

re: #102 Obdicut

A very different historical context completely. Apples and oranges.

107

Obdicut Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:12:32pm

re: #105 Irenicum

No, Judaism is the religion, not the ethnicity.

You can tell from the ‘ism’ part.

That can’t describe an ethnicity.

108

Obdicut Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:23:52pm

re: #106 Irenicum

I think you think I’m saying something I’m not.

The option of not being religious is not something which existed prior to the modern day, really. There have been rare, rare atheists before the Enlightenment, but few and far between.

Jews, dispersed as they were before the Enlightenment, had their culture to tie them together— a culture that included a religion. But it was a culture, not just a religion— which is a good thing, given that the nature of most other religions was to war on each other as heretics. Christians fought each other bloodily over versions of Christianity— Jews, mostly (in the modern era) respected the variations of worship; we’ve always been more ecumenical.

Moreover, given that the ritual is the way, for Jews, there is no real need to believe in God, or, more perfectly, to believe you know how to believe in God. I know Jewish atheists who are open about their atheism and considered in good standing in Orthodox and Conservative congregations.

I am a very neglectful Jew when it comes to ritual, given that I don’t practice it at all. But that just places me somewhere on the spectrum. I still try to abide by many of the Jewish values of philosophy and life transmitted to me by my grandmother, who herself was a secular Jew. These are values you’ve heard Ludwig speak of often, I suppose— they are values that do not depend on the religion to validate them. They never did.

109

Irenicum Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:29:16pm

re: #107 Obdicut

I agree that Judaism is the religious expression of being Jewish. But being Jewish is predicated upon ethnically Judaic roots, which is inherently religious in its nature. Can an ethnically non-Jew become a Jew? Yes. I considered that myself as a teenager. But someone who is Jewish by ethnicity is that because they can trace their ethnic heritage to a specific tribe from the Middle East. And that tribe became what it was because of a religious distinction. Again, I’m not disputing your “Jewishness” I’m just saying that Jews have a religious identity that is complicated by ethnic heritage. By the way, it doesn’t make them any better or worse, just interesting sociologically and religiously. I say this as a Christian who affirms the central importance of Judaism in my own faith.

110

sagehen Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:30:26pm

re: #108 Obdicut

“Two Jews, three opinions.”

and then there’s the Jew shipwrecked alone on a desert island. When they rescue him ten years later, they wonder why he’s built two synagogues. “So there’d be one I don’t go to.”

111

Irenicum Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:32:28pm

re: #110 sagehen

Ha. That sound suspiciously like Baptists and Presbyterians I know.

112

sagehen Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:34:02pm

re: #109 Irenicum

But even all the way back in the day when we were that nomadic tribe, before we had a place, and then throughout the years when we did have a nation with kings… there were lots of people who didn’t believe in the religion. Our tribal chronicle (Christians call it The Old Testament”) has lots of stories of those of our people, including even the leaders sometimes, who totally blew off the religious part.

113

Irenicum Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:45:59pm

re: #112 sagehen

That’s very true. There has always been a diversity among the tribes. A good point. And yet every person was still considered a Jew. (Though Samaritans were, and still are, considered half-breeds. It seems racism is a cross cultural reality.) Thanks for the clarification. Jews and Judaism have progressed through the millennia and have adapted better than most to the turn towards modernity. I appreciate this dialogue by the way and mean no disrespect.

114

Obdicut Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:47:07pm

re: #109 Irenicum

I agree that Judaism is the religious expression of being Jewish. But being Jewish is predicated upon ethnically Judaic roots, which is inherently religious in its nature.

No it’s not. For reasons I already explained, which apparently you’re just ignoring.

But someone who is Jewish by ethnicity is that because they can trace their ethnic heritage to a specific tribe from the Middle East. And that tribe became what it was because of a religious distinction.

First of all: More than one tribe.

Second of all: Maybe to you, a Christian, Jews became ‘what it was’ because of religious distinction. To many Jews, it was also about our culture, not all of which was defined by our religion. It diminishes Jewish culture to frame it solely in terms of the religion.

115

Irenicum Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:56:31pm

re: #114 Obdicut

Once again, I agree that it’s not just about religion. I’m not saying that. It is larger than just a religious affiliation. But the roots do seem, by every account, to predicate a divine interaction with a specific person (Abraham) leading to a people (Jews) set apart. Why is that so hard to see or accept? You can reject the idea that Abraham met God in Ur of the Chaldees and was called to travel to a land he knew nothing of, a land we now call Israel. But he (Abraham) saw it that way, and a people was born because of that. Of course I do accept the biblical witness of this account. That’s a whole ‘nuther separate issue.

116

Obdicut Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:33:34am

re: #115 Irenicum

But he (Abraham) saw it that way, and a people was born because of that.

No. That is the myth of origin. Not the origin.

This is really silly. Do you also think he was ten generations away from Noah? And lived 175 years?

117

Fozzie Bear Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:16:07am

re: #28 Mr Pancakes

Yes it is all about wages… they live on site and their families come to visit them at the factory for holidays .

My only hope (and it probably won”t be in my lifetime) that they demand a higher standard of living which will balance things out if they succeed.

Hope for us in the US, in large part, hinges upon the development of labor movements in China.

The grand irony of it all is that we need an ostensibly “communist” country to become more liberal in order for there to be hope of stability in our own economy.

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