Lindsey Graham: Illegals Come Here to ‘Drop a Child’

Politics • Views: 6,328

If you thought the recent right wing push to repeal part of the US Constitution’s 14th amendment and take away automatic birthright citizenship was just a wacky idea from the Rand Paul fringe, think again. Lindsey Graham eyes ‘birthright citizenship’.

And in his statement on Fox News (where else?), Graham resorted to some of the crudest dehumanizing language I’ve seen from any politician.

Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) announced Wednesday night that he is considering introducing a constitutional amendment that would change existing law to no longer grant citizenship to the children of immigrants born in the United States. …

“People come here to have babies,” he said. “They come here to drop a child. It’s called “drop and leave.” To have a child in America, they cross the border, they go to the emergency room, have a child, and that child’s automatically an American citizen. That shouldn’t be the case. That attracts people here for all the wrong reasons.”

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424 comments
1 Kragar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:54:29am

Cheap political grandstanding without a chance of passing. He’s just pandering to the mob.

2 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:55:12am

re: #1 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Cheap political grandstanding without a chance of passing. He’s just pandering to the mob.

Same mob that’s been burning him in effigy, I think…

3 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:56:07am

He makes it sound like they are dropping a turd.

4 Kragar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:56:20am

re: #2 JasonA

Same mob that’s been burning him in effigy, I think…

He’s trying to show that he’s hip and with it and please, not in the face.

5 ShaunP  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:57:00am

Only problem with that idea? Having an “anchor baby” doesn’t do squat for the status of the parents:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

The term “anchor baby” assumes that having a US citizen child confers immigration benefits on the parents and extended family. This is generally a false assumption, as immigration law does not allow a US citizen child to sponsor his parents until he or she turns 21. Once the child turns 18, immigration law also allows a US citizen child to sponsor his own siblings with a 15 to 23 year quota delay. Immigration law does not provide categories for any other relatives that would apply in this situation. In addition, if the parents are illegal immigrants, they are usually barred from immigration despite having a sponsor.[1][13]

In the public debate surrounding “anchor babies”, it is also frequently assumed that an “anchor baby” would be beneficial in deportation proceedings. Such benefits do not exist except in the very rare case of extreme and profound hardship on the child. Approximately 88,000 legal immigrant parents of US citizen children have been deported in the past ten years for what it described as “minor criminal convictions” now classified as aggravated felonies, including nonviolent drug offenses, simple assaults and drunk driving.[14] Federal appellate courts and the Supreme Court have upheld the refusal by the Immigration and Naturalization Service or Immigration and Customs Enforcement to stay the deportation of illegal immigrants merely on the grounds that they have U.S.-citizen, minor children.[15]

6 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:57:02am

re: #2 JasonA

Same mob that’s been burning him in effigy, I think…

Looks like he’s trying to feed the crocodile in the hope that it will eat him last. (H/T W. Churchill)

7 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:57:09am

Who the hell talks about mothers that way?

8 brennant  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:57:11am

So far this week: Freedom of religion is out, as well as citizenship.

9 webevintage  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:57:15am

Of course he can “introduce” it all he wants, but then the Senate has to agree and then 2/3rds of the states have to say “yay” or “Nay”.
Correct?

(i think it sucks that School House Rocks is no longer played on TV on Saturdays and after school.)

10 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:57:27am
That attracts people here for all the wrong reasons.

What would be the right reasons? Mowing your lawn, picking your produce, that kind of thing?

But I do know what makes people mad, that 12 million people came here, and there seems to be no system to deal with stopping 20 million 20 years from now.

Right. Passing immigration reform would be sooo difficult, I’ll just amend the constitution instead.

Jerk.

11 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:57:38am

Lindsey Graham jumps the shark.

12 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:58:03am
“They come here to drop a child. It’s called “drop and leave.”

Uh-huh, kinda like when a cow “drops” a calf. I guess immigrants are no better than animals in some people’s eyes.

13 webevintage  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:58:06am

re: #7 Obdicut

Who the hell talks about mothers that way?

Well if one does not see illegals as actual humans then….

14 Kragar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:58:26am

re: #5 ShaunP

Do not bother the mob with facts. They’ve got pitchforks to sharpen.

15 Stanghazi  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:59:21am

Say goodbye to the Hispanic vote GOP. Hell, the minority vote period. Every day they come up with some new demonization. The short-sightedness of winning the midterms is going to kick them in the ass. And I’ll be there to help.

16 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:59:26am

re: #8 brennant

So far this week: Freedom of religion is out, as well as citizenship.

And banning books is in.

17 brennant  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:00:04am

re: #16 CuriousLurker

And banning books is in.

Oh, right. Forgot about that.

18 Kragar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:01:40am

re: #8 brennant

So far this week: Freedom of religion is out, as well as citizenship.

re: #16 CuriousLurker

And banning books is in.

I’m beginning to see a pattern

Quick, I need a chalkboard, some pictures of Hitler, and some gold sellers to sponsor me!

19 darthstar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:01:57am

Lindsey Graham is a foal.

20 Stanghazi  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:02:03am

re: #17 brennant

Oh, right. Forgot about that.

We’ve still got tomorrow, don’t close the list.

21 Kefirah  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:02:39am

re: #17 brennant

it’s getting really hot in here.

oh. look. my thermometer mercury reads 451 degrees.

and my calendar doesn’t say 2010 - it says july, 1984…

curiouser and curiouser.

22 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:03:30am

re: #19 darthstar

Lindsey Graham is a foal.

no kidding

23 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:03:44am

re: #21 Kefirah

it’s getting really hot in here.

oh. look. my thermometer mercury reads 451 degrees.

and my calendar doesn’t say 2010 - it says july, 1984…

curiouser and curiouser.

Welcome to the Brave New World?

24 brennant  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:03:49am

re: #18 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I’m beginning to see a pattern

Quick, I need a chalkboard, some pictures of Hitler, and some gold sellers to sponsor me!

GOLD?!

Glen Beck’s GOLD - in a chart

25 darthstar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:04:16am

re: #22 brookly red

no kidding

He’s not calf the man he used to be.

26 Ming  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:04:39am

Speaking of right-wing hypocrisy, Michelle Malkin herself was an “anchor baby”. I believe that both her parents were here in the USA on temporary visas. Along came Baby Michelle, and voila! Citizenship for all. I’d be surprised if her web site has anything to say about Senator Graham’s latest words of wisdom.

27 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:05:01am

re: #25 darthstar

He’s not calf the man he used to be.

Cow can you make puns at a time like this?

28 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:05:52am

re: #27 JasonA

Cow can you make puns at a time like this?

Whelp, that’s enough of that.

29 Stanghazi  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:06:23am

Oh so frustrating, you guys always milk it.

30 darthstar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:07:25am

re: #27 JasonA

Cow can you make puns at a time like this?

Welcome to the new gelded age of satire (in Lindsey’s case, that could be a literal reference).

31 uncah91  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:07:34am

re: #28 wrenchwench

Whelp, that’s enough of that.

You know, you guys really get my goat…

32 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:07:54am

re: #19 darthstar

Lindsey Graham is a foal.

Really I think he’s more of a jackass.

HE HAW!

33 darthstar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:08:08am

re: #29 Stanley Sea

Oh so frustrating, you guys always milk it.

And ewe are so different how?

34 fizzlogic  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:08:14am

If it can be quantitatively proved the law it’s being abused then it should be modified to prevent its abuse. I’ll await that proof.

35 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:08:23am

re: #29 Stanley Sea

Oh so frustrating, you guys always milk it.

Udderly ridiculous.

36 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:08:27am

re: #29 Stanley Sea

Oh so frustrating, you guys always milk it.

don’t brood about it…

37 Kefirah  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:08:49am

re: #23 JasonA

if our brave new world has such people as breitbart in it, i doubt that it is as beauteous a world as miranda thought.

shakespeare, orwell, huxley, bradbury, and bovine jokes. we have covered it all in a span of 10 minutes. well done, lizards!

38 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:09:36am

re: #34 trendsurfer

If it can be quantitatively proved the law it’s being abused then it should be modified to prevent its abuse. I’ll await that proof.

It’s not a law, though. It’s part of the constitution. It really can’t be abused. It’s part of what we are as a nation.

The Fifth Amendment is often used by those who have committed crimes to shield themselves from self-incrimination. That is not an abuse of it.

39 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:09:43am

re: #26 Ming

Speaking of right-wing hypocrisy, Michelle Malkin herself was an “anchor baby”. I believe that both her parents were here in the USA on temporary visas. Along came Baby Michelle, and voila! Citizenship for all.

That’s contradicted by ShaunP’s #5. Unless she was one of those extreme hardship cases.

40 Kragar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:09:48am

re: #24 brennant

GOLD?!

Glen Beck’s GOLD - in a chart

Idiots buy gold. Smart people buy guns and pay attention to who buys gold.

41 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:10:12am

re: #37 Kefirah

if our brave new world has such people as breitbart in it, i doubt that it is as beauteous a world as miranda thought.

shakespeare, orwell, huxley, bradbury, and bovine jokes. we have covered it all in a span of 10 minutes. well done, lizards!

I’m just disappointed we didn’t manage to work Animal Farm in there somewhere…

42 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:11:55am

re: #41 JasonA

I’m just disappointed we didn’t manage to work Animal Farm in there somewhere…

as Bart says: don’t have a cow man

43 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:12:04am

re: #41 JasonA

That’s so 1984. /

44 darthstar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:12:18am

re: #38 Obdicut

It’s not a law, though. It’s part of the constitution. It really can’t be abused. It’s part of what we are as a nation.

The Fifth Amendment is often used by those who have committed crimes to shield themselves from self-incrimination. That is not an abuse of it.

I always view invoking the Fifth as an admission of guilt. Anyone who does so forever loses my trust in all other areas.

45 Kefirah  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:12:32am

re: #41 JasonA

i think we did, by proxy.

besides, the far right screaming masses [breitbart, geller, palin] really do seem to ascribe to:

“all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”

46 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:13:02am

Alright, time to visit mom. Be well, lizards.

47 darthstar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:13:44am

re: #46 JasonA

Alright, time to visit mom. Be well, lizards.

Bring her a basket of laundry. Mothers love laundry. :)

48 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:16:11am

Someone pointed out that when the Founding Fathers drafted the Constitution, there was no such thing as “illegal” or “undocumented” immigration. Those who made it here and made their way stayed.

The XIV amendment was just about codifying it and making citizenship a federal matter not a state.

Until 2000, German citizenship was determined by the nationality of the father. It has since been changed so that children of legally resident foreign citizens automatically receive German citizenship at birth.

49 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:16:12am

re: #44 darthstar

I always view invoking the Fifth as an admission of guilt. Anyone who does so forever loses my trust in all other areas.

I hope that’s sarcasm?

50 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:17:39am

re: #34 trendsurfer

If it can be quantitatively proved the law it’s being abused then it should be modified to prevent its abuse. I’ll await that proof.

What quantity would constitute abuse? There are a lot of countries that would look at new baby citizens as a valuable resource (not meaning to use other dehumanizing terms.) In an age of falling birthrates, I see no reason to change the constitution to avoid new citizens.

51 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:17:56am

re: #49 Obdicut

I hope that’s sarcasm?

/you don’t have to answer that, Darth…

52 Kragar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:18:30am

F-I-F!!!

53 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:18:31am

re: #38 Obdicut


The Fifth Amendment is often used by those who have committed crimes to shield themselves from self-incrimination. That is not an abuse of it.

It has also been used by those who were not criminals to avoid being forced to make incriminating or unduly revealing personal revelations.

Any senator or public figure who invokes the Fifth in a hearing generally earns my disturst, but not just any private citizen in any case.

54 ShaunP  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:19:36am

re: #52 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

F-I-F!!!

Everything you say, I say “FIF!”

55 Kefirah  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:21:20am

re: #48 ralphieboy

re: #50 wrenchwench

germany has also recently codified laws that allow people who can prove german ancestry to claim german citizenship.

[Link: findarticles.com…]

i think the impetus was to rectify the loss of citizenship caused by the shoah, but the point is that germany looks at new citizens as a blessing. i am very uncomfortable with this burgeoning “people are a burden” meme.

56 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:21:25am

re: #53 ralphieboy

It has also been used by those who were not criminals to avoid being forced to make incriminating or unduly revealing personal revelations.

Yes. My point was that even the use of the fifth by actual criminals is not, in any way, an abuse of the Fifth Amendment. It is what it is for— to force the State to actually build a case.

57 Kragar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:21:57am

I took a lot of criminal justice course in my early college days, plus worked with NCIS and MPs. The one thing I learned early is if they ask you anything and you’re not sure what or why they’re asking, you plead the fifth and wait for a lawyer. You can be 100% innocent, thats not the issue. The issue is what they think you did and what the can get from you to “prove it”.

Plead the fifth.

58 fizzlogic  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:22:16am

re: #38 Obdicut

You make a very good point with the Fifth Amendment. I doubt anyone would want to amend it. But just because it’s in the Constitution doesn’t mean it can’t be amended. The country did manage to repeal prohibition.

Having said that, I love the idea that being born here automatically makes one a citizen. Outside of the minutemen or other race baiting groups I doubt it can be proved it’s being abused. To say it’s being abused is basically saying you don’t like the kind of person that’s becoming a citizen. Which is nothing more than a racially charged argument.

Graham is just pandering to the Hot Air/Michelle Malkin crowd—the same people who’ve made a living tapping in to racial biases of their readers.

59 darthstar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:24:04am

re: #49 Obdicut

I hope that’s sarcasm?


re: #51 brookly red

/you don’t have to answer that, Darth…

On the advice of counsel…(murmur, murmur, murmur)…I do not recall.

60 darthstar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:26:14am

meeting time…bbl

61 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:26:36am

First of all, what do they mean “drop”? That sounds like abandonment, and I haven’t heard of a epidemic of abandoned babies at the border.

(Okay, it also brings to mind a scene from Meaning of Life, but we’ll forget about that for now.)

Also, “for all the wrong reasons”? The primary reason to come to the United States has always been better opportunity for oneself and one’s children.

The problem is that the other nations are so unstable and messed up that it’s created the equivalent of a room with high pressure air next to a room with low pressure air. What will happen when you open the door?

62 fizzlogic  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:28:07am

re: #50 wrenchwench

I just threw that word in there. The other would have been “qualitatively” which is basically what the proponents for changing the Amendment are really saying—they don’t like Mexicans. And they promote anything and everything that would cast Mexicans in a bad light.

63 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:28:11am

a note on the 5th: don’t try it on a tax form.

64 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:28:23am

re: #48 ralphieboy

Someone pointed out that when the Founding Fathers drafted the Constitution, there was no such thing as “illegal” or “undocumented” immigration. Those who made it here and made their way stayed.

The XIV amendment was just about codifying it and making citizenship a federal matter not a state.

Until 2000, German citizenship was determined by the nationality of the father. It has since been changed so that children of legally resident foreign citizens automatically receive German citizenship at birth.

For some reason, this reminds me of the scene in “1776”, when John Adams is squabbling about slavery or some related issue with one of the Southerners in Congress. The Southerner has just denied the idea that blacks are ‘Americans’.

“They’re people, and they’re here,” says Adams. “If there is any other requirement, I’ve never heard of it.”

65 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:29:31am

re: #50 wrenchwench

What quantity would constitute abuse? There are a lot of countries that would look at new baby citizens as a valuable resource (not meaning to use other dehumanizing terms.) In an age of falling birthrates, I see no reason to change the constitution to avoid new citizens.

And now, Robert Heinlein, in Podkayne of Mars: Illegitimacy? They’ve never heard of it. A baby is a baby, and the Corporation won’t let one want, because that baby will grow up and be an employee, and Venus has a chronic labor shortage.

66 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:30:22am

re: #61 EmmmieG

Also, “for all the wrong reasons”? The primary reason to come to the United States has always been better opportunity for oneself and one’s children.

Ah, Emmie, how quickly you forget. Wasn’t it just a couple of weeks ago that some wingnut or other said that Muslim women were coming here with the specific intent of giving birth to jihadi babies?

67 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:30:43am

re: #55 Kefirah

re: #50 wrenchwench

germany has also recently codified laws that allow people who can prove german ancestry to claim german citizenship.

[Link: findarticles.com…]

i think the impetus was to rectify the loss of citizenship caused by the shoah, but the point is that germany looks at new citizens as a blessing. i am very uncomfortable with this burgeoning “people are a burden” meme.

Some of my (gentile) ancestors had German citizenship…but Germany can keep it. Thank you!!!

68 Kefirah  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:31:24am

utterly off.topic, but still very important for those of us who watch realpolitik with bated breath:

the arab league has endorsed direct talks between israel and the palestinian leadership, assuming that the p.l.o. wants to enter into those talks.

this is a huge diplomatic victory for netanyahu - might help him keep his coalition together longer than i thought he might.

[Link: www.tabletmag.com…]

69 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:31:30am

“drop” is a very charged term in the usage Graham made.

Not normally associated with human birth, but you’ll hear it when discussing livestock; e.g. a mare dropping a foal.

You can draw your own conclusion on what implications Graham was trying to make by using that term, but in my eyes it was specifically chosen and it was meant to be derogatory.

70 Max  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:31:33am

Lindsey GrahAmesty wants them illegals to birth babies here so he can give them amnesty. Don’t be a drone! Open your eyes!!!

///

71 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:32:09am

re: #67 SanFranciscoZionist

Some of my (gentile) ancestors had German citizenship…but Germany can keep it. Thank you!!!

Actually, I’ve been working on the German ancestors recently, and I keep thinking that the “unlucky” brothers who didn’t inherit the farm came to the US, but how much luckier were their descendants when WWI & WWII hit, and they weren’t living in the middle of a battlefield?

72 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:33:13am

re: #68 Kefirah

utterly off.topic, but still very important for those of us who watch realpolitik with bated breath:

the arab league has endorsed direct talks between israel and the palestinian leadership, assuming that the p.l.o. wants to enter into those talks.

this is a huge diplomatic victory for netanyahu - might help him keep his coalition together longer than i thought he might.

[Link: www.tabletmag.com…]

In-ter-es-ting!

73 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:34:39am

re: #69 oaktree

“drop” is a very charged term in the usage Graham made.

Not normally associated with human birth, but you’ll hear it when discussing livestock; e.g. a mare dropping a foal.

You can draw your own conclusion on what implications Graham was trying to make by using that term, but in my eyes it was specifically chosen and it was meant to be derogatory.

“Drop” is used a lot in human childbirth, but it refers to the position of the baby. Babies “drop” a few weeks before birth, meaning they move lower, towards the birth canal.

I’m a natural low carrier, and my babies never dropped. Any farther down, and they were out. (My sister once walked into an OB-GYN appointment with a dropped baby and a dilation of 6. They wouldn’t let her go home.)

TMI?

74 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:35:30am

re: #69 oaktree

“drop” is a very charged term in the usage Graham made.

Not normally associated with human birth, but you’ll hear it when discussing livestock; e.g. a mare dropping a foal.

You can draw your own conclusion on what implications Graham was trying to make by using that term, but in my eyes it was specifically chosen and it was meant to be derogatory.

Exodus 1:19: The midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women, for they are vigorous and give birth before the midwife comes to them.”

Commenters have said that in this passage, the midwives are playing on Pharaoh’s stereotypes of foreigners, that they ‘drop’ their children without extended labor, and are therefore able to hide their sons.

75 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:37:51am

You know. This is just waiting for a joke about that snack food made from “graham flour, a combination of fine-ground white flour and coarse-ground wheat bran and germ” and sold by Nabisco. But that would probably be inappropriate.

//

76 ShaunP  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:38:12am

re: #73 EmmmieG

TMI?

I plead the 5th…

77 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:38:35am

re: #73 EmmmieG

“Drop” is used a lot in human childbirth, but it refers to the position of the baby. Babies “drop” a few weeks before birth, meaning they move lower, towards the birth canal.

I’m a natural low carrier, and my babies never dropped. Any farther down, and they were out. (My sister once walked into an OB-GYN appointment with a dropped baby and a dilation of 6. They wouldn’t let her go home.)

TMI?

True, but I do not think that is what Senator Graham was referring to.

78 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:40:01am

re: #71 EmmmieG

Actually, I’ve been working on the German ancestors recently, and I keep thinking that the “unlucky” brothers who didn’t inherit the farm came to the US, but how much luckier were their descendants when WWI & WWII hit, and they weren’t living in the middle of a battlefield?

I don’t know if I will ever know much about my German ancestors—in the sparse family records I have, the couple who came over are named ‘Mary and Peter Muller’—yes, I’m sure they will be easy to track down!!

I’ve always thought it was a great example of karmic justice, how much of the ass-kicking administered to Hitler’s Reich came at the hands of German-American farmboys from Kansas, whose grandfathers were lucky enough to make their way to the new world.

79 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:40:34am

“They come here to drop a child. It’s called “drop and leave.”

there seems to be a competition in the GOP now to see just how much ugliness, stupidity, and violence their pet idiots will swallow with glee

80 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:41:41am

re: #77 oaktree

True, but I do not think that is what Senator Graham was referring to.

Not at all. I was just commenting that dropping is a commonly used term in childbirth.

I just don’t get why they are using it here. People who cross the border to give birth have no intention of “dropping” the baby. They are, in fact, being good parents, giving their baby a chance that they don’t have.

(Did you know that it is also common for South Koreans to come here on a visa while heavily pregnant, overstay, and give birth. Then they go home, with the child’s American passport in hand. The passport is their child’s emergency exit, just in case of Mr. Ronery being…doing…oh just being Mr. Ronery.)

81 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:43:59am

re: #80 EmmmieG

Not at all. I was just commenting that dropping is a commonly used term in childbirth.

I just don’t get why they are using it here. People who cross the border to give birth have no intention of “dropping” the baby. They are, in fact, being good parents, giving their baby a chance that they don’t have.

(Did you know that it is also common for South Koreans to come here on a visa while heavily pregnant, overstay, and give birth. Then they go home, with the child’s American passport in hand. The passport is their child’s emergency exit, just in case of Mr. Ronery being…doing…oh just being Mr. Ronery.)

Living with Mr. Ronery just over the border must be a constant source of angst.

(I had a dream last night that I was going to North Korea to teach English. It was a very long, involved dream, punctuated by concern about how my very anti-Communist father was going to feel about this.)

82 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:44:21am

re: #78 SanFranciscoZionist

I don’t know if I will ever know much about my German ancestors—in the sparse family records I have, the couple who came over are named ‘Mary and Peter Muller’—yes, I’m sure they will be easy to track down!!

I’ve always thought it was a great example of karmic justice, how much of the ass-kicking administered to Hitler’s Reich came at the hands of German-American farmboys from Kansas, whose grandfathers were lucky enough to make their way to the new world.


[Link: pilot.familysearch.org…]

There are more tools than you know of. If you are willing to pay, ancestry.com now has the passenger lists for many boats. Having even a birth year makes it even easier.

83 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:44:29am

re: #78 SanFranciscoZionist

I don’t know if I will ever know much about my German ancestors—in the sparse family records I have, the couple who came over are named ‘Mary and Peter Muller’—yes, I’m sure they will be easy to track down!!

I’ve always thought it was a great example of karmic justice, how much of the ass-kicking administered to Hitler’s Reich came at the hands of German-American farmboys from Kansas, whose grandfathers were lucky enough to make their way to the new world.

My uncle (by marriage) was there and his last name was Zimmerman. He was from western Pennsylvania from a family of miners however, and not a Kansas farm-boy. And a chunk of the family tree on that side was over on this side of the pond by 1750, and I’ve seen grave sites of my direct ancestors from the 1830s in that same area.

84 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:45:33am

re: #80 EmmmieG

Not at all. I was just commenting that dropping is a commonly used term in childbirth.

I just don’t get why they are using it here. People who cross the border to give birth have no intention of “dropping” the baby. They are, in fact, being good parents, giving their baby a chance that they don’t have.

(Did you know that it is also common for South Koreans to come here on a visa while heavily pregnant, overstay, and give birth. Then they go home, with the child’s American passport in hand. The passport is their child’s emergency exit, just in case of Mr. Ronery being…doing…oh just being Mr. Ronery.)


I have to agree. I am not big on illegal immigration, but I can see why entering the country to have your delivery for free in a first rate facility would be much more attractive that the alliteratives…

85 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:45:35am

re: #83 oaktree

My uncle (by marriage) was there and his last name was Zimmerman. He was from western Pennsylvania from a family of miners however, and not a Kansas farm-boy. And a chunk of the family tree on that side was over on this side of the pond by 1750, and I’ve seen grave sites of my direct ancestors from the 1830s in that same area.

‘Kansas farm boy’ was a generic, referring specifically to my own grandpa…

86 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:46:35am

And today was the Jerusalem Gay Pride Parade!

(Newt would probably say that the Israelis shouldn’t allow a gay pride parade in Jerusalem until the Saudis allow one in Mecca.)

87 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:46:48am

re: #73 EmmmieG

“Drop” is used a lot in human childbirth, but it refers to the position of the baby. Babies “drop” a few weeks before birth, meaning they move lower, towards the birth canal.

I’m a natural low carrier, and my babies never dropped. Any farther down, and they were out. (My sister once walked into an OB-GYN appointment with a dropped baby and a dilation of 6. They wouldn’t let her go home.)

TMI?

whereas my wife, on the other hand, didn’t dilate, especially for kid #2. contractions - hard contractions. OB comes in.. “tsk tsk, you are not dilating at all.. let’s go!” Then, after 3 hours, the kid’s heart rate drops dramatically. Nurses rushing in, doctor comes in with the little surgery tray… chaos. Holy shit! Emergency c-section?? What’s wrong with my baby? Turns out, the head was halfway out already. Went from 1 to 10 cm in world record time. Take that, doc - she got it all done in 4 hours. Don’t tell my wife how to dilate…

88 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:47:57am

BBL

89 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:48:54am

I suspect Lindsay was also a drop and leave, but he was just dropped on his head.

90 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:50:06am

It’s pandering at its worse by Graham which is a shame since he in the past has seemed to be one of the better Republicans on immigration issues. My problem wtih this possible bill is that it will make the children of immigrants feel less Americanized. My mom’s folks were the children of immigrants from Eastern Europe and pretty much all my great uncles on that side and my grandpa himself either served in WWII or Korea in my grandpa’s case as he was born in 1929. My dad’s maternal grandfather the son of Irish immigrants ended up becoming the engineer for the first skyscraper in Pittsburgh. All these know nothing attiudes about immigrants really disturb me frankly.

91 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:50:33am

re: #87 cliffster

whereas my wife, on the other hand, didn’t dilate, especially for kid #2. contractions - hard contractions. OB comes in.. “tsk tsk, you are not dilating at all.. let’s go!” Then, after 3 hours, the kid’s heart rate drops dramatically. Nurses rushing in, doctor comes in with the little surgery tray… chaos. Holy shit! Emergency c-section?? What’s wrong with my baby? Turns out, the head was halfway out already. Went from 1 to 10 cm in world record time. Take that, doc - she got it all done in 4 hours. Don’t tell my wife how to dilate…

Apparently they asked where the baby was and out it came, which meant your wife had an answering cervix.

(My first wife was like that, I kept telling the doc they should put a net accross just in case she shot the baby across the room.

92 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:50:52am

Deal or no deal, and Rangel chose no deal. He chose poorly.

Rangel will now face trial in the House on 13 charges.

The charges include allegations that Rangel failed to report rental income on vacation property in the Dominican Republic and over the course of nearly a decade failed to report more than $600,000 on his financial disclosure statements.

Rangel’s refusal to make a deal means that this will now play out over the next few months unless Rangel’s fellow Democrats push him to retire or resign to avoid damaging their own reelection chances.

93 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:51:30am

re: #89 PT Barnum

I suspect Lindsay was also a drop and leave, but he was just dropped on his head.

I can’t believe no one has referred to a certain Monte Python skit…

94 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:51:43am

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

Tel Aviv is one of the most progressive cities anywhere. Jerusalem? Not so much.

95 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:52:38am

re: #89 PT Barnum

I suspect Lindsay was also a drop and leave, but he was just dropped on his head.

Would that explain his fascination with farm animal husbandry?

96 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:53:02am

re: #95 b_sharp

Would that explain his fascination with farm animal husbandry?

He majored in it in college until they caught him at it.

97 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:53:50am

re: #92 lawhawk

Deal or no deal, and Rangel chose no deal. He chose poorly.

Rangel will now face trial in the House on 13 charges.

Rangel’s refusal to make a deal means that this will now play out over the next few months unless Rangel’s fellow Democrats push him to retire or resign to avoid damaging their own reelection chances.

methinks he will name names…

98 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:54:31am

re: #94 lawhawk

Tel Aviv is one of the most progressive cities anywhere. Jerusalem? Not so much.

Tel Aviv is fabulous.

Jerusalem is holy and irritable.

Still, 3,000 is not a bad turn-out. It sounds like one young woman got beaten up by the counterprotesters, hope that is under control now.

99 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:54:32am

re: #93 brookly red

I can’t believe no one has referred to a certain Monte Python skit…

You mean this one?

100 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:55:21am

re: #99 PT Barnum

You mean this one?

yup that’s the one…

101 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:55:29am

re: #96 PT Barnum

He majored in it in college until they caught him at it.

Well it’s good to be good at something and god knows dogs aren’t always available.

102 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:56:20am

re: #101 b_sharp

Well it’s good to be good at something and god knows dogs aren’t always available.

with a face like his, it’s hard to tell whether it was cross species or not.

103 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:57:37am

re: #92 lawhawk

Deal or no deal, and Rangel chose no deal. He chose poorly.

Rangel will now face trial in the House on 13 charges.

Rangel’s refusal to make a deal means that this will now play out over the next few months unless Rangel’s fellow Democrats push him to retire or resign to avoid damaging their own reelection chances.

Has Pelosi mentioned ‘training the swamp’ yet?

104 Randall Gross  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:58:00am

Remember all the outrage over “punished with a baby” during the election? Bet we don’t hear a peep from those wingnuts over Graham’s statement.

105 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:58:38am

re: #103 NJDhockeyfan

Has Pelosi mentioned ‘training the swamp’ yet?

no she said let the chips fall… he is gonna take a buncha people with him…

106 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:00:00pm

re: #104 Thanos

I don’t get the connection?

107 darthstar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:03:23pm

re: #106 brookly red

I don’t get the connection?

There was outrageous outrage over President Obama saying he didn’t want his daughters “punished with a baby” or an STD, which is why he supported sex education over abstinence only education.

And as we learned later in the election, Ignorance is Bristol.

108 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:05:15pm

re: #107 darthstar

There was outrageous outrage over President Obama saying he didn’t want his daughters “punished with a baby” or an STD, which is why he supported sex education over abstinence only education.

And as we learned later in the election, Ignorance is Bristol.

I still don’t see a connection to what Graham said… oh well whatever.

109 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:06:02pm

re: #97 brookly red

The only names to name are himself, his son Steven, and perhaps his wife. He’s got no one else to blame for his mess. He alone was responsible for his tax mess (even as he tried at one point to blame his wife for the tax mess). He was responsible for sending out solicitations for donations for his public policy center on his House letterhead, failing to pay taxes on his Dominican villa, etc.

110 Kragar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:07:39pm

Rangel’s plea deal has fallen thru, ethics committee pressing forward with charges

111 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:07:42pm

re: #109 lawhawk

The only names to name are himself, his son Steven, and perhaps his wife. He’s got no one else to blame for his mess. He alone was responsible for his tax mess (even as he tried at one point to blame his wife for the tax mess). He was responsible for sending out solicitations for donations for his public policy center on his House letterhead, failing to pay taxes on his Dominican villa, etc.

true but he knows “where the bodies are hidden” and he ain’t happy he didn’t the wagons circled round him.

112 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:07:44pm

re: #105 brookly red

If anyone else gets the fallout, it will come from them not demanding his ouster before now strenuously enough or for taking his donations as part of their reelection campaigns. Some members have returned those donations (Rangel was one of the most prodigious campaign fundraisers in the House for the Democrats), but others have held on to those funds. They’re going to have a harder time justifying their actions now.

113 tank816  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:07:49pm

I just want to point out that it’s not really that “wacky” of an idea: It’s how citizenship works in the UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, France and South Africa. They all work on a modified jus soli form of citizenship that requires that parents must be legal residents, or have lived in the country for a certain amount of time. India goes further and requires parents to be citizens. All of these countries did this in response to immigration problems, so there’s definite international precedent for this sort of overreaction.

114 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:10:25pm

re: #91 PT Barnum

Apparently they asked where the baby was and out it came, which meant your wife had an answering cervix.

(My first wife was like that, I kept telling the doc they should put a net accross just in case she shot the baby across the room.

Sure beats 36 hours of labor. It was pretty scary.. when the heart rate drops they all go into action mode. I couldn’t ask questions, I couldn’t help with anything.. I was completely powerless. All I could do is stand there watching, trying to keep the tears from spilling over. Fortunately it was only for 30 seconds or so.. they saw the head and they put the scalpels away and pulled him out the old fashioned way. Little dude’s a pain in the ass and it started literally the day he was born.

115 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:10:27pm

re: #113 tank816

interesting…

116 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:10:30pm

re: #113 tank816

I just want to point out that it’s not really that “wacky” of an idea: It’s how citizenship works in the UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, France and South Africa. They all work on a modified jus soli form of citizenship that requires that parents must be legal residents, or have lived in the country for a certain amount of time. India goes further and requires parents to be citizens. All of these countries did this in response to immigration problems, so there’s definite international precedent for this sort of overreaction.

Following a friend over the cliff is no better than doing it all on your own.

Even if we accept it as a good policy, it doesn’t excuse the language.

117 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:10:31pm

re: #113 tank816

I just want to point out that it’s not really that “wacky” of an idea: It’s how citizenship works in the UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, France and South Africa. They all work on a modified jus soli form of citizenship that requires that parents must be legal residents, or have lived in the country for a certain amount of time. India goes further and requires parents to be citizens. All of these countries did this in response to immigration problems, so there’s definite international precedent for this sort of overreaction.

OK. It’s not wacky. It’s just un-American!

118 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:12:51pm

re: #92 lawhawk

Deal or no deal, and Rangel chose no deal. He chose poorly.

Rangel will now face trial in the House on 13 charges.

Rangel’s refusal to make a deal means that this will now play out over the next few months unless Rangel’s fellow Democrats push him to retire or resign to avoid damaging their own reelection chances.

You’re probably right, and it’s absurd that every other democrat would have to account for Rangel’s actions. That’s just stupid.

119 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:13:53pm

I do not agree with the law regarding the 14th amendment…but it’s the law and I can live with it….there is no need to demonize the parents and frankly if I were in their shoes I’d probably do the same thing

120 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:17:08pm

I do wonder what the tipping point (and criteria) are at which people having child (or the child itself) is considered a detriment to a country rather than an asset?

Aside: In a thread discussion here the other day someone posted a link to “Tradition” from _Fiddler On the Roof_. A song describing the gender roles and some of the society rolls in the subject Russian village. And anyone familiar with the plot gets to see some challenges made to these roles and that while traditions are powerful and useful in many situations, they also can fail to handle change well.

And as I viewed the link I also saw that the village was essentially locking 50% (the female half) of their population into a niche that denied them any sort of formal education. Essentially writing off half of their intellectual potential from square one.

Not simply a Jewish issue (for that time and place), but a long-standing issue wherever caste, social class, or other factors drive the population to discriminate in education. (And one of the driving forces for universal public education in the United States was the realization that an educated population was more valuable to the economy and the country as a whole. An investment that has paid back immensely.)

Back on the topic at hand. Should we be viewing children (and especially immigrant children) as a liability to be scorned, or an asset to nurtured and supported in order to help our country?

121 Kefirah  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:18:50pm

re: #72 SanFranciscoZionist

very interesting. and i think tablet magazine made some good points. now that the p.l.o. looks like the obstructing party, netanyahu has the upper hand once again.

this in spite of the international outrageous outrage regarding the flotilla [a tragedy that 9 died; what’s worse was the media bias and purposeful blindness to the perpetrated violence of the mavi marmara], the settlements + thawing of the freeze in september, and the recent court case about rape by deception [turns out, there is israeli legal precedent. two jewish citizens were convicted of the same charge. still makes my stomach turn, but not totally out of the blue].

it’s an impressive turn of events.

here’s hoping.

122 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:18:56pm

re: #103 NJDhockeyfan

Has Pelosi mentioned ‘training the swamp’ yet?

Pelosi should give up her position for abetting Rangle all these years…as far as I’m concerned she is complicit

123 webevintage  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:19:20pm

re: #122 albusteve

Pelosi should give up her position for abetting Rangle all these years…as far as I’m concerned she is complicit

How?

124 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:20:10pm

Of all the problems connected with immigration, this “anchor baby” hysteria has to be the tiniest one of the bunch.

And Lindsey Graham is playing it up as though it were a tidal wave.

A tsunami of children! Run for your lives!

Disgusting talk from a disgusting man.

125 allegro  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:20:26pm

So now is it OK to say the GOP is promoting a racist agenda without the conciliatory “some” or “a few” or “just the fringe element”?

When the top elected officials of the GOP feel quite free to spout this ugly, racist, dehumanizing rhetoric to applause, I think it’s fair to drop the “not all, but some are” crap. Those who aren’t offended by it have no excuse.

126 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:20:55pm

re: #123 webevintage

How?

she’s blocked an investigation or two…a lot of reps are familiar with Rangle’s problems, they don’t give a shit and they probably admire him

127 Kragar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:21:29pm

Lou Engle is on his “help help, I’m being repressed” kick again;

Christians Facing ‘New Day’ of Discrimination

A federal judge’s ruling in favor of a public university that removed a Christian student from its counseling program over her belief that homosexuality is morally wrong signals a “new day” of discrimination against Christians.

So says prayer leader Lou Engle, who worries the decision this week could set “the precedent for Christian students being expelled in universities across America who refuse to compromise biblical views on morality.”

On Monday U.S. District Judge George Caram Steeh dismissed a lawsuit Julea Ward filed against Eastern Michigan University (EMU) alleging she was removed from the school’s graduate counseling program last year after she refused to counsel homosexual clients about relationships.

“The federal judge is declaring that Christian kids do not have a voice to stand for a moral truth [and their] biblical convictions on the issue of homosexuality and immorality in the nation,” said Engle, founder of TheCall, a prayer movement that has drawn thousands of college-age youth. “This is a profound moment.”

128 Kronocide  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:21:30pm

Child Dropping is a crime!

Will the child go to Kinderjail too?

129 webevintage  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:22:04pm

re: #118 cliffster

You’re probably right, and it’s absurd that every other democrat would have to account for Rangel’s actions. That’s just stupid.

That would be like Republican’s in the Senate being on the hook for whatever slimy bullshit that Ensign was involved with.
(well everyone but Coburn)

I’m glad there will be hearings…you can say you are different if you are willing to do what has always been done before.

130 Randall Gross  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:22:24pm

Just Zedonkulous
[Link: www.boston.com…]

131 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:22:40pm

re: #125 allegro

So now is it OK to say the GOP is promoting a racist agenda without the conciliatory “some” or “a few” or “just the fringe element”?

When the top elected officials of the GOP feel quite free to spout this ugly, racist, dehumanizing rhetoric to applause, I think it’s fair to drop the “not all, but some are” crap. Those who aren’t offended by it have no excuse.

It’s hard to minimize Lindsey Graham.

132 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:23:02pm

re: #122 albusteve

Pelosi should give up her position for abetting Rangle all these years…as far as I’m concerned she is complicit

My beef is that the House can investigate itself… tax evasion is crime & he should get a jury trial like everyone else would.

133 webevintage  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:23:26pm

re: #126 albusteve

she’s blocked an investigation or two…a lot of reps are familiar with Rangle’s problems, they don’t give a shit and they probably admire him

Was there enough evidence to move forward?
If she blocked an “investigation or tow” why would she change directions now and allow an investigation into Rangle and not be willing to make a deal?

134 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:24:16pm

re: #132 brookly red

My beef is that the House can investigate itself… tax evasion is crime & he should get a jury trial like everyone else would.

he should be expelled and in that event I think he would face evasion charges…lawhawk would kmow

135 rwdflynavy  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:24:33pm

re: #122 albusteve

Pelosi should give up her position for abetting Rangle all these years…as far as I’m concerned she is complicit

“The most ethical Congress EVER!!!”

136 allegro  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:25:11pm

re: #127 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

“The federal judge is declaring that Christian kids do not have a voice to stand for a moral truth [and their] biblical convictions on the issue of homosexuality and immorality in the nation,”

Their voices are just as loud (and obnoxious) as ever. They just can’t get certification for a profession while flouting the demanded requirement of it like everyone else.

137 Kragar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:25:13pm

re: #127 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Engle went on to add;

Engle said Christian students will be forced to take a stand. “We’re in the days of Daniel. … You’ve got to trust that God will bring you divine promotion when you refuse to bow down to the image,” he said. “To compromise for the sake of getting a grade, you’re practicing to receive the mark of the beast.”

“In other words, if you can’t stand in this day, how are you going to stand when the real pressure heats up?” Engle continued. “We’re going to find out who the real Christians are.”

No real christian, eh?

Pretty soon he’ll be advocating Christian martyrdom operations. Oops, too late, he does that already

138 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:25:27pm

re: #133 webevintage

Was there enough evidence to move forward?
If she blocked an “investigation or tow” why would she change directions now and allow an investigation into Rangle and not be willing to make a deal?

it’s just too big….she blocked the hearings, not the investigation….my bad….it’s been going on for years

139 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:25:36pm

re: #135 rwdflynavy

“The most ethical Congress EVER!!!”

Damnation via faint praise indeed. Oh, you were being sarcastic, weren’t you?

;)

140 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:25:44pm

re: #133 webevintage

There were delays in calling for investigations beginning in 2008 prior to the elections (the scandals broke during the summer of 2008). Pelosi refused calls to make Rangel step down, lest it be seen as a slight of the CBC. Heck, she refused and rebuffed calls for Rangel to step down in 2009 when even the NYT was calling on him to step down from the chairmanship over the weight of the charges arrayed against him.

141 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:26:44pm

re: #140 lawhawk

There were delays in calling for investigations beginning in 2008 prior to the elections (the scandals broke during the summer of 2008). Pelosi refused calls to make Rangel step down, lest it be seen as a slight of the CBC. Heck, she refused and rebuffed calls for Rangel to step down in 2009 when even the NYT was calling on him to step down from the chairmanship over the weight of the charges arrayed against him.

thanks

142 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:27:30pm

re: #125 allegro

So now is it OK to say the GOP is promoting a racist agenda without the conciliatory “some” or “a few” or “just the fringe element”?

When the top elected officials of the GOP feel quite free to spout this ugly, racist, dehumanizing rhetoric to applause, I think it’s fair to drop the “not all, but some are” crap. Those who aren’t offended by it have no excuse.

I hardly think that suggesting people come here illegally so they can have a child that is a citizen would be considered, “ugly, racist, dehumanizing rhetoric”.

143 webevintage  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:28:06pm

re: #140 lawhawk

There were delays in calling for investigations beginning in 2008 prior to the elections (the scandals broke during the summer of 2008). Pelosi refused calls to make Rangel step down, lest it be seen as a slight of the CBC. Heck, she refused and rebuffed calls for Rangel to step down in 2009 when even the NYT was calling on him to step down from the chairmanship over the weight of the charges arrayed against him.

Thank you for that information.

144 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:28:34pm

re: #142 cliffster

I hardly think that suggesting people come here illegally so they can have a child that is a citizen would be considered, “ugly, racist, dehumanizing rhetoric”.

What about saying:

“They come here to drop a child. It’s called “drop and leave.”

145 avanti  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:28:56pm

re: #24 brennant

GOLD?!

Glen Beck’s GOLD - in a chart

Very interesting link. Buy Beck’s gold today, and if it almost triples in value, you’ll break even. There is indeed no law about over pricing a product, but this is a “investment”.

146 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:29:49pm

re: #142 cliffster

I hardly think that suggesting people come here illegally so they can have a child that is a citizen would be considered, “ugly, racist, dehumanizing rhetoric”.

it seems to be the packaging and not the product that is in question…

147 allegro  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:29:55pm

re: #142 cliffster

I hardly think that suggesting people come here illegally so they can have a child that is a citizen would be considered, “ugly, racist, dehumanizing rhetoric”.

If you think that “drop and leave” isn’t dehumanizing rhetoric, there’s little more to discuss.

148 webevintage  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:29:57pm

re: #142 cliffster

I hardly think that suggesting people come here illegally so they can have a child that is a citizen would be considered, “ugly, racist, dehumanizing rhetoric”.

No but using the rhetoric “drop a child” IS dehumanizing as women do not “drop” their offspring.
They have babies.

Horses and cows “drop”.

149 Stanghazi  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:29:58pm

re: #130 Thanos

Just Zedonkulous
[Link: www.boston.com…]

They have those in Tijuana! They use paint though.

150 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:30:55pm

re: #134 albusteve

He could be expelled from Congress under House rules, but that doesn’t automatically mean he’d be charged for tax evasion. The House would have to make that specific finding, and he would have to be independently indicted and convicted of same in a court of law.

The good example of a similar situation: Dan Rostenkowski (and a former head of the House Ways and Means) or Jim Traficant (who was the first to be expelled from Congress since Myers in the Abscam mess).

151 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:31:09pm

Lindsey Graham, on campaign,
dropped a baby on its brain.
Cries of outrage flew to heaven.
No worries. The mama had dropped seven.

152 Claire  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:31:38pm

Pedant here-
Drop and leave? Leave what? Leave where? Leave it at the hospital? Leave the country? Who? The baby? Huh?

153 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:33:27pm

re: #142 cliffster

I hardly think that suggesting people come here illegally so they can have a child that is a citizen would be considered, “ugly, racist, dehumanizing rhetoric”.

even more inflammatory then ‘dropping’….does not help

154 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:34:24pm

re: #153 albusteve

What is more inflammatory than ‘dropping’, Steve?

155 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:34:43pm

re: #144 Obdicut

What about saying:

“They come here to drop a child. It’s called “drop and leave.”

I got hammered for using the euphemism ‘anchor baby’

157 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:36:04pm

re: #154 Obdicut

What is more inflammatory than ‘dropping’, Steve?

huh?…read the post

158 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:36:15pm

re: #144 Obdicut

What about saying:

“They come here to drop a child. It’s called “drop and leave.”

“Ugly, racist, dehumanizing rhetoric” that is not. I’m not fond of the choice of words, but this stuff about it being horribly racist is completely over the top.

159 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:36:26pm

re: #157 albusteve

huh?…read the post

I did. What are you saying is more inflammatory than ‘dropping’, Steve?

160 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:37:05pm

re: #147 allegro

If you think that “drop and leave” isn’t dehumanizing rhetoric, there’s little more to discuss.

Really? What would you like to discuss?

161 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:37:14pm

re: #158 cliffster

“Ugly, racist, dehumanizing rhetoric” that is not. I’m not fond of the choice of words, but this stuff about it being horribly racist is completely over the top.

Who are the ‘they’ he is talking about?

Which border is he talking about?

Why did he use the phrase ‘drop’?

162 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:37:19pm

re: #156 Killgore Trout

Rangel, Ethics Committee Reach Plea Deal: Report

However, committee members have not agreed to the settlement.

typical double talk

163 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:37:32pm

re: #158 cliffster

it is what it is…

164 ProBosniaLiberal  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:40:02pm

And here I thought that Graham wasn’t a complete nut.

Off topic, but Mahmoud Ahmanutball said something laughably stupid again, this time about Paul the Octopus.

165 Claire  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:40:12pm

re: #155 albusteve

I got hammered for using the euphemism ‘anchor baby’


You offended a bunch of sailors. How could you?

166 webevintage  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:41:01pm

re: #158 cliffster

“Ugly, racist, dehumanizing rhetoric” that is not. I’m not fond of the choice of words, but this stuff about it being horribly racist is completely over the top.

Horribly racist?
May be not.

But rhetoric like that is specially designed to strip people of their humanity so that it is easier to see them as the “other”. if you don’t see them as human as you are then it is easier to rile up folks against those “others” who might come and take some of your stuff. It is easier to pass laws making it criminal to help those “others”.

167 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:41:11pm

re: #165 Claire

You offended a bunch of sailors. How could you?

now I’m a sailor bigot too!
ya just can’t win sometimes

168 Kronocide  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:41:22pm

re: #142 cliffster

I hardly think that suggesting people come here illegally so they can have a child that is a citizen would be considered, “ugly, racist, dehumanizing rhetoric”.

Suggesting that a significant amount of people would do that is dehumanizing because to do that, they parents are dehumanizing the child. Most transient peoples are looking for a better life, not trying to come get free social security checks or have terrorist babies that will blow up jets in 30 years.

That a couple would have an ‘anchor baby’ is undeniable. That it would happen with any amount of regularity or be anything more than a rare exception is dehumanizing. To make it part of the national discussion as a relevant point of debate is dehumanizing.

169 rwdflynavy  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:42:03pm

re: #165 Claire

You offended a bunch of sailors. How could you?

What the Hell Steve!!!?
//

170 webevintage  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:42:55pm

re: #164 ProLifeLiberal

And here I thought that Graham wasn’t a complete nut.

Off topic, but Mahmoud Ahmanutball said something laughably stupid again, this time about Paul the Octopus.

It is a funny story.


“What have you infidels done this time to infuriate Mahmoud Ahmadinejad so thoroughly? (Trick question, for your very existence forces Ahmadinejad to hate you at all hours of the day.) But his never-ceasing hatred has just been multiplied by infinity, thanks in part to a certain German octopus by the name of Paul, who is worshiped like a false Western prophet because he incorrectly guessed Spain would win the World Cup and not “Death to America.” Ahmadinejad laughs and laughs at your so-called octopus.”

Read more at Wonkette: [Link: wonkette.com…]

171 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:43:38pm

re: #158 cliffster

“Ugly, racist, dehumanizing rhetoric” that is not. I’m not fond of the choice of words, but this stuff about it being horribly racist is completely over the top.

With that little peek into his mind presented by the phrase ‘drop and leave’ it becomes pretty obvious he considers Mexicans in particular, illegal aliens in general, to either be or act like animals.

What about that doesn’t speak volumes to the question of ethnic bigotry, or racism?

172 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:43:41pm

re: #168 BigPapa

Suggesting that a significant amount of people would do that is dehumanizing because to do that, they parents are dehumanizing the child. Most transient peoples are looking for a better life, not trying to come get free social security checks or have terrorist babies that will blow up jets in 30 years.

That a couple would have an ‘anchor baby’ is undeniable. That it would happen with any amount of regularity or be anything more than a rare exception is dehumanizing. To make it part of the national discussion as a relevant point of debate is dehumanizing.

I would agree to that…but the notion that the racism card is over played in some circumstances is legit

173 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:43:58pm

I suggest mandatory ultrasounds for all women of childbearing age who look like they might be foreigners. And if they turn out to be pregnant, and don’t have the proper baby-dropping licenses, they must leave or abort.

Oh, wait…

174 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:45:10pm

re: #161 Obdicut

Who are the ‘they’ he is talking about?

Which border is he talking about?

Why did he use the phrase ‘drop’?

What exactly are those questions supposed to mean? I had a girlfriend when I was a teenager who was in that exact situation - her dad had gotten her mom across the border so that she’d be born in America and be a citizen. It happens.

Either way, this over-the-top OH MY GOD HE IS A HORRIBLE RACIST PIG stuff doesn’t help the case. His language was a little crass and inappropriate. That’s all. Taking it to this other level is just partisan extremism. I don’t understand why the same people who can see how ridiculous it is to get hysterical over every little thing Obama says, will turn around and get hysterical over anything a republican says. It’s made political discourse into what it is today - just a big screaming match.

175 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:45:10pm

re: #173 Cato the Elder

I suggest mandatory ultrasounds for all women of childbearing age who look like they might be foreigners. And if they turn out to be pregnant, and don’t have the proper baby-dropping licenses, they must leave or abort.

Oh, wait…

you should run for office…steady paycheck, lots of cool bennies

176 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:45:47pm

re: #172 albusteve

but the notion that the racism card is over played in some circumstances is legit

I see that claim all the time, but never with a link….

177 webevintage  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:46:17pm

[Link: politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com…]

The vast majority of Americans say they favor allowing illegal immigrants to stay in the U.S. if they have a job and pay their taxes, according to a new national poll. But a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey also indicates that a majority of the public says such a plan takes a back seat to stopping the flow of illegal immigrants into the country.

Eighty-one percent of people questioned in the poll say they support creating a program that would allow illegal immigrants already living in the U.S. for a number of years to stay here and apply to legally remain in this country permanently if they had a job and paid back taxes, with 19 percent opposed to such a plan.

(i have not opened the pdf yet to read deeper)

178 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:46:48pm

re: #176 wrenchwench

I see that claim all the time, but never with a link…

it’s my observation…not linkable

179 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:48:02pm

Most illegal aliens working in this country do not make enough to owe taxes. Which is exactly how the corporations want it.

180 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:48:24pm

re: #174 cliffster

His language was a little crass and inappropriate. That’s all. Taking it to this other level is just partisan extremism.

I disagree. It wasn’t “crass”, it was revealing. Graham is the one who took it to the level of partisan extremism.

181 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:49:42pm

re: #171 b_sharp

With that little peek into his mind presented by the phrase ‘drop and leave’ it becomes pretty obvious he considers Mexicans in particular, illegal aliens in general, to either be or act like animals.

What about that doesn’t speak volumes to the question of ethnic bigotry, or racism?

The part where I don’t see everything through a partisan lens. I’m sorry - this sort of discussion - breaking down, picking apart, and psychoanalyzing Graham’s statement is 100%, exactly the same sort of thing the idiots on the right do with Obama and Pelosi. Like I said, it’s just a big screaming match.

182 tradewind  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:51:31pm

re: #142 cliffster
Well, ’ drop a child ’ wasn’t the best choice of terms. He could have simply called it birth tourism, like they do in the brochures.
[Link: www.breakingtravelnews.com…]

183 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:52:08pm

republicans are bad

184 Kragar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:52:10pm

lol, So my kids called me up and are trying to get hints on what the big suprise is for Saturday (Disneyland). So my youngest asks me;

“Can you tell me what letter it starts with?”
“It? Well, IT starts with an I.”
“It starts with an I?”
“Yes, IT starts with an I.”
“HE SAYS IT STARTS WITH AN I”

That should keep them busy for a few hours.

185 Kronocide  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:52:28pm

re: #172 albusteve

I would agree to that…but the notion that the racism card is over played in some circumstances is legit

OK, the racism card is overplayed sometimes. But don’t let that detract from the relevant discussion at hand. Sometimes people can get a little overzealous in their descriptions of events, that shouldn’t change the subject. Or, we can get lost in quibbling the errata of specific terms and strength of statements.

What Graham said may not be ‘horribly racist,’ but it sure is dehumanizing and has a very strong tinge of racism to it. Actual racists will approve of the tact and message, this is ‘dog whistle’ talk. Whether he meant to use the dog whistle or he’s just a buffoon I’m not sure of yet but I’ll be watching to see that.

186 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:52:31pm

Will this kind of pandering hysterical rhetoric from Graham be enough to stop the wingnuts from wanting to burn him in effigy?

Stay tuned.

187 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:52:46pm

re: #174 cliffster

What exactly are those questions supposed to mean?

Exactly what they say. They are straightforward questions.

I had a girlfriend when I was a teenager who was in that exact situation - her dad had gotten her mom across the border so that she’d be born in America and be a citizen. It happens.

Would you refer to her mother giving birth as ‘dropping’ her?


Either way, this over-the-top OH MY GOD HE IS A HORRIBLE RACIST PIG stuff doesn’t help the case.

Why are you changing what was said? Allegro said that it was ugly, racist rhetoric. And it is.

His language was a little crass and inappropriate. That’s all.

A little? Seriously? That’s your honest opinion? Referring to pregnant mothers giving birth as ‘dropping babies’, and implying they then leave those children is just a little crass and inappropriate?

I’m sorry, dude, but accusing people who are upset by this of being partisan is foolish in the extreme. It is not because he is a Republican that this is upsetting. It is because of the nature of the comments— an us vs. them, dehumanizing statement aimed at mothers.

It is fine if you think it is over the line to call it ‘racist’. I disagree with you. But it is not wildly out of scope in any way.

Do you think he was not talking about Hispanics crossing the southern border?

188 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:52:54pm

re: #183 SpaceJesus

republicans are bad

rotating title…

189 tradewind  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:53:35pm

re: #183 SpaceJesus
b-b-b-ba-aaad.

190 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:54:26pm

re: #182 tradewind

Well, ’ drop a child ’ wasn’t the best choice of terms. He could have simply called it birth tourism, like they do in the brochures.
[Link: www.breakingtravelnews.com…]

heh..very interesting

191 rwdflynavy  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:54:29pm

For all the hyperventilating about building a mosque near WTC….

Shinto Shrine near Pearl Harbor…

192 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:54:55pm

re: #183 SpaceJesus

republicans are bad

so are democrats…
I hate the feds

193 Claire  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:55:02pm

re: #179 Cato the Elder

Most illegal aliens working in this country do not make enough to owe taxes. Which is exactly how the corporations want it.

Most of them pay FICA to Social Security accounts they will never collect from. Which is exactly how the Feds want it.

194 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:55:35pm

re: #170 webevintage

It is a funny story.

“What have you infidels done this time to infuriate Mahmoud Ahmadinejad so thoroughly? (Trick question, for your very existence forces Ahmadinejad to hate you at all hours of the day.) But his never-ceasing hatred has just been multiplied by infinity, thanks in part to a certain German octopus by the name of Paul, who is worshiped like a false Western prophet because he incorrectly guessed Spain would win the World Cup and not “Death to America.” Ahmadinejad laughs and laughs at your so-called octopus.”

Read more at Wonkette: [Link: wonkette.com…]

The cephalopod overlords GAZE at Iran and begin to plan. They are patient, or so patient…

195 Kragar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:55:47pm

re: #191 rwdflynavy

For all the hyperventilating about building a mosque near WTC…

Shinto Shrine near Pearl Harbor…

THOSE BASTARDS!
///

196 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:56:22pm

re: #193 Claire

Most of them us pay FICA to Social Security accounts they will never collect from. Which is exactly how the Feds want it.

fify

197 Claire  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:57:00pm

re: #196 brookly red


True!

198 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:57:16pm

re: #191 rwdflynavy

For all the hyperventilating about building a mosque near WTC…

Shinto Shrine near Pearl Harbor…

See your point…but the Japanese were not really motivated by the Shinto religion in WWII, unless I missed something. They were motivated by nationalistic pride.


(Are there such things as rabid Shinto zealots? Other than weird American converts, I mean.)

199 tradewind  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:57:55pm

It’s not just a south-of-the-border thang:

Key source markets include Hong Kong, South Korea and Turkey, where a number of travel agencies specialise in the birth tourism market.


[Link: www.breakingtravelnews.com…]
What could go wrong?/

200 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:58:35pm

re: #198 EmmmieG

Well… yes, they kind of were. It’s a very tricky subject in general, but the godhood of the Emperor was definitely important to Japan. Shintoism is very hard to disentangle fully from Japanese national identity. Hell, it’s hard to disentangle from Buddhism in Japan, as well.

201 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:59:11pm

re: #198 EmmmieG

See your point…but the Japanese were not really motivated by the Shinto religion in WWII, unless I missed something. They were motivated by nationalistic pride.

(Are there such things as rabid Shinto zealots? Other than weird American converts, I mean.)

Rabid Shinto Zealots? sure, back in the day I used to like their show at CBGB…

202 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:59:12pm

re: #199 tradewind

It’s not just a south-of-the-border thang:

[Link: www.breakingtravelnews.com…]

What could go wrong?/

Yeah, I bet there are dozens of such cases every year. We be doomed!

203 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:59:33pm

re: #198 EmmmieG

See your point…but the Japanese were not really motivated by the Shinto religion in WWII, unless I missed something. They were motivated by nationalistic pride.

(Are there such things as rabid Shinto zealots? Other than weird American converts, I mean.)

Well, in Shinto, the Emperors were descendant of Amaterasu.
So…
Maybe…

204 McSpiff  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:59:41pm

re: #198 EmmmieG

See your point…but the Japanese were not really motivated by the Shinto religion in WWII, unless I missed something. They were motivated by nationalistic pride.

(Are there such things as rabid Shinto zealots? Other than weird American converts, I mean.)

It could be argued that the deification of the emperor largely intertwined religious fantacism and nationalism.

205 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:00:00pm

re: #198 EmmmieG

See your point…but the Japanese were not really motivated by the Shinto religion in WWII, unless I missed something. They were motivated by nationalistic pride.

(Are there such things as rabid Shinto zealots? Other than weird American converts, I mean.)

the famed kamakazi was an expression of Shintoism, as was their choice to fight to the death in the Pacific

206 McSpiff  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:00:51pm

If I didn’t know better, I’d say we had some history buffs here at LGF. Call me crazy.

207 Kronocide  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:01:01pm

That people would travel here just to have a baby is ignorant. They come here for a better life, to live and work, but they want to live here. Like most of the rest of us, the have romance, sex, and babies. They want to have families. There is nothing sinister about it.

But no: they are a bunch of scheming conniving foreigners that will ‘drop a baby’ just to stay here. The implied context is very dehumanizing.

208 rwdflynavy  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:01:47pm

re: #198 EmmmieG

See your point…but the Japanese were not really motivated by the Shinto religion in WWII, unless I missed something. They were motivated by nationalistic pride.


(Are there such things as rabid Shinto zealots? Other than weird American converts, I mean.)

EmmmieG, I agree. Kinda like the 9-11 hijackers were motivated by Rabid Wahhabism version of Sunni Islam, not the mystic, peaceful Sufi version building the community center.

209 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:01:53pm

re: #205 albusteve

the famed kamakazi was an expression of Shintoism, as was their choice to fight to the death in the Pacific

motivation is irrelevant, that is why I don’t like hate crime laws… they did what they did (I don’t care why) & we did what we did.

210 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:02:30pm

re: #206 McSpiff

If I didn’t know better, I’d say we had some history buffs here at LGF. Call me crazy.

my dear old dad fought the Japanese for three years…
2d Marines

211 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:02:50pm

re: #209 brookly red

Do you consider motivation unimportant when it comes to the charge of murder?

Should someone who’s motivation was a split-second of fear and rage be prosecuted the same as someone who’s motivation was that they were paid to kill someone in cold blood?

212 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:04:00pm

re: #211 Obdicut

Do you consider motivation unimportant when it comes to the charge of murder?

Should someone who’s motivation was a split-second of fear and rage be prosecuted the same as someone who’s motivation was that they were paid to kill someone in cold blood?

Self defense is a motivation…..

213 tradewind  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:04:09pm

re: #186 Cato the Elder
Are you implying that Graham would say, go overboard with statement after statement seeking to curry favor with a group whose patience he had strained to near point-of-no-return?

214 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:04:13pm

re: #207 BigPapa

That people would travel here just to have a baby is ignorant. They come here for a better life, to live and work, but they want to live here. Like most of the rest of us, the have romance, sex, and babies. They want to have families. There is nothing sinister about it.

But no: they are a bunch of scheming conniving foreigners that will ‘drop a baby’ just to stay here. The implied context is very dehumanizing.

it’s just mincing words…nobody defended the language, but in the end it’s all the same…live here, better life etc

215 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:04:41pm

re: #208 rwdflynavy

A good bit from that article:


On July 31, 1965, a stone memorial was erected in honor of shrine members who persisted against overwhelming odds in a lawsuit against discrimination by the Federal Government. It was also meant to serve as a constant reminder of the hardships and indignities suffered at the hands of a nation misguided by wartime hysteria, racial prejudice and fear, which we must not allow to happen again to any group, regardless of race, religion or national origin.
216 McSpiff  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:04:53pm

re: #210 albusteve

my dear old dad fought the Japanese for three years…
2d Marines

Hell of a job they had to do. Had to be done, but the cost was unimaginable.

217 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:06:14pm

re: #211 Obdicut

Do you consider motivation unimportant when it comes to the charge of murder?

Should someone who’s motivation was a split-second of fear and rage be prosecuted the same as someone who’s motivation was that they were paid to kill someone in cold blood?

murder is murder and maximum sentence is maximum sentence. motivation is irrelevant.

218 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:06:14pm

re: #206 McSpiff

If I didn’t know better, I’d say we had some history buffs here at LGF. Call me crazy.

I’m waiting til the conversation turns back to football so I can chime in.

219 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:06:47pm

re: #217 brookly red

murder is murder and maximum sentence is maximum sentence. motivation is irrelevant.

No, this is not in the least bit true. The division between first, second, and third degree murder all have to do with motivation.

Do you seriously not know that?

220 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:06:47pm

Hmmm…Perhaps I am seeing Shintoism as it is expressed in the post-WWII world.

On the other hand, my grandfather didn’t freak out when he saw “Shintos” walking around Portland. He saw the Japanese, and tried to shoot them with a gun he hadn’t worn for 20 years. (Japanese sailors, Rose festival).

(And that was all he did. I doubt they even noticed him. He did not harass them, once he came back to 1965.)

221 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:08:06pm

re: #220 EmmmieG

I’m not really sure what you’re asking/saying.

The reverence and obedience to the Emperor was definitely an expression of Shintoism. That it was channeled into militaristic ends was not a necessary output of Shintoism, but the dedication and obedience to the Emperor was definitely rooted in Shinto.

222 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:08:18pm

re: #219 Obdicut

No, this is not in the least bit true. The division between first, second, and third degree murder all have to do with motivation.

Do you seriously not know that?

I am quite aware, we don’t have murder 1 in NY…

223 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:08:57pm

re: #164 ProLifeLiberal

And here I thought that Graham wasn’t a complete nut.

Off topic, but Mahmoud Ahmanutball said something laughably stupid again, this time about Paul the Octopus.

Oh, yeah. Good old Paul, demonstrating the superstition and benightedness of the West.

224 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:09:13pm

re: #219 Obdicut

The degree in a crime may have to do with the intent, whether it is part of an additional crime, and who the victim is (public official, law enforcement, etc.).

Murdering a cop is generally considered 1st degree; murder Joe Smith on the street and that’s considered 2d degree if all else is equal.

225 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:09:37pm

re: #216 McSpiff

Hell of a job they had to do. Had to be done, but the cost was unimaginable.

the 2d division was mauled so bad at Saipan, they went off line…they were decimated and did not take part in the Iwo Jima fight…two entirely new divisions had to be formed and trained for Iwo…the second then saw action on Okinawa, months later….the US Marines got fucking clobbered fighting the Japanese…they won out but they paid for it in terms unrealistic to the US Army’s style….in fact the Army’s combat division on Okinawa would not fight and their commander was relieved

226 tradewind  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:09:54pm

re: #219 Obdicut
Do you seriously not know that in many jurisdictions, only first-degree is ’ murder ‘, with lesser charges falling into the manslaughter or homicide category?

227 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:09:59pm

re: #192 albusteve

so are democrats…
I hate the feds

por que no te gusta los federales guey?

228 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:10:17pm

re: #218 cliffster

I’m waiting til the conversation turns back to football so I can chime in.

hoy hoy!

229 McSpiff  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:12:04pm

re: #220 EmmmieG

Hmmm…Perhaps I am seeing Shintoism as it is expressed in the post-WWII world.

On the other hand, my grandfather didn’t freak out when he saw “Shintos” walking around Portland. He saw the Japanese, and tried to shoot them with a gun he hadn’t worn for 20 years. (Japanese sailors, Rose festival).

(And that was all he did. I doubt they even noticed him. He did not harass them, once he came back to 1965.)

You most likely are. Nothing wrong with that either, just shows that a religion can be reformed. Like steve said, kamikaze came from the Japanese term “Divine Wind” IIRC. Much of the nationalism and militarism was tied up with Shintoism and the divine nature of the emperor. I’m just hoping for the day that AQ is considered a relic of Islam past…

230 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:12:08pm

re: #168 BigPapa

Suggesting that a significant amount of people would do that is dehumanizing because to do that, they parents are dehumanizing the child. Most transient peoples are looking for a better life, not trying to come get free social security checks or have terrorist babies that will blow up jets in 30 years.

That a couple would have an ‘anchor baby’ is undeniable. That it would happen with any amount of regularity or be anything more than a rare exception is dehumanizing. To make it part of the national discussion as a relevant point of debate is dehumanizing.

The concept behind ‘anchor babies’ has always been that people are determinedly scooting across the border as their labor pains begin, for the sole purpose of having a citizen child. The fact that no one has ever really offered evidence that this is happening, that it’s done deliberately, or that it gives the parents any advantage has completely failed to get people to stop talking about it as though it were some sort of established factual phenomenon.

231 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:12:18pm

re: #222 brookly red

I am quite aware, we don’t have murder 1 in NY…

What are you talking about?

If you’re quite aware the distinctions between the degrees of murder is motivation, why did you say that motivation doesn’t matter, and that murder is all just murder?

And why are you claiming that New York doesn’t have first degree murder?

[Link: public.leginfo.state.ny.us…]

That’s a description of murder in the first degree in New York.

232 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:12:26pm

re: #227 SpaceJesus

por que no te gusta los federales guey?

si?

233 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:13:09pm

re: #224 lawhawk

The degree in a crime may have to do with the intent, whether it is part of an additional crime, and who the victim is (public official, law enforcement, etc.).

Murdering a cop is generally considered 1st degree; murder Joe Smith on the street and that’s considered 2d degree if all else is equal.

So, in other words, motivation does matter in the charge of murder.

234 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:13:18pm

re: #231 Obdicut

What are you talking about?

If you’re quite aware the distinctions between the degrees of murder is motivation, why did you say that motivation doesn’t matter, and that murder is all just murder?

And why are you claiming that New York doesn’t have first degree murder?

[Link: public.leginfo.state.ny.us…]

That’s a description of murder in the first degree in New York.

I would check the date on that…

235 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:13:48pm

re: #227 SpaceJesus

por que no te gusta los federales guey?

All the federales say they could have had him any day…

236 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:13:51pm

re: #222 brookly red

1st Degree murder in NY. Murder in the first degree is a class A-I felony in New York.

The sentencing for Murder 1 in NY has changed because of the death penalty issues and is generally 25 to life.

237 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:14:40pm

re: #232 albusteve

si?

como? i thought you were from new mexico ese

238 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:15:10pm

re: #221 Obdicut

I’m not really sure what you’re asking/saying.

The reverence and obedience to the Emperor was definitely an expression of Shintoism. That it was channeled into militaristic ends was not a necessary output of Shintoism, but the dedication and obedience to the Emperor was definitely rooted in Shinto.

I guess what I’m saying is that when people think of the Trade Center, they think of, to be honest, a religion, or rather extremist zealots of that religion. When they think of Pearl Harbor, they think of a nation attacking a nation.

239 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:15:12pm

re: #233 Obdicut

So, in other words, motivation does matter in the charge of murder.

I think his point was that after a conviction, motivation in terms of hate crimes is not relevant to the sentence…if that’s what he meant, I agree…hate crimes are a legal fiction

240 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:15:21pm

re: #226 tradewind

Do you seriously not know that in many jurisdictions, only first-degree is ’ murder ‘, with lesser charges falling into the manslaughter or homicide category?

That’s completely aside the point. Motivation matters in the killing of another human being. Hugely.
re: #234 brookly red

I would check the date on that…

That comes straight from the New York State Legislature site, Brookly. Can you provide any evidence that murder 1 doesn’t exist in New York?

I really doubt you can, since it’s a total fiction.

241 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:16:12pm

re: #237 SpaceJesus

como? i thought you were from new mexico ese

no, I’m from Albuquerque

242 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:16:24pm

re: #238 EmmmieG

I guess what I’m saying is that when people think of the Trade Center, they think of, to be honest, a religion, or rather extremist zealots of that religion. When they think of Pearl Harbor, they think of a nation attacking a nation.

… and?

I’m just not getting what your point is. Sorry. I’m not trying to badger you, I’m just really not understanding why you’re saying this.

243 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:17:27pm

re: #237 SpaceJesus

como? i thought you were from new mexico ese

actually I’m a bit embarrassed I know no Spanish…but I get by in the south valley

244 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:17:37pm

re: #239 albusteve

I agree…hate crimes are a legal fiction


defendant’s motion to suppress evidence related to motive because hate is a fictional word.

245 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:17:47pm

re: #239 albusteve

I think his point was that after a conviction, motivation in terms of hate crimes is not relevant to the sentence…if that’s what he meant, I agree…hate crimes are a legal fiction

Well, given that hate crimes are a different charge, not something that comes in at sentencing, I’d agree. They are irrelevant to the sentence. They are a separate charge to be proved.

As to them being a legal fiction— I think there’s a good reason why a swastika painted on the side of a Jewish household is different than just a random spray tag.

You don’t?

246 tradewind  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:18:18pm

re: #152 Claire
Leave the hospital’s emergency room, with their infant.
The ’ drop and leave ’ phrase, although not very sophisticated, refers to the fact that the women have not had prenatal care and therefore use the emergency rooms of the hospitals ( ’ drop in ’ ) as their first medical contact. They don’t check into the birthing suites…… they deliver the babies and leave the hospital.
Which is probably healthier for both, btw. A hospital is no place for a ( healthy ) baby.

247 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:18:39pm

re: #240 Obdicut

That comes straight from the New York State Legislature site, Brookly. Can you provide any evidence that murder 1 doesn’t exist in New York?

I really doubt you can, since it’s a total fiction.

I think law hawk cleared it up just fine… since the sentence is the same for both in effect there is no difference. But I still don’t think motivation is relevant… you do the crime you do the time. Last I got to say on the matter.

248 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:19:01pm

re: #213 tradewind

Are you implying that Graham would say, go overboard with statement after statement seeking to curry favor with a group whose patience he had strained to near point-of-no-return?

Undocumented workers? I don’t think they can vote for him anyway.

249 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:19:05pm

re: #243 albusteve


so glad i don’t live there anymore. i got a place near campus now.

fewer hooligans, mormon missionaries, and hookers.

250 McSpiff  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:19:26pm

re: #225 albusteve

the 2d division was mauled so bad at Saipan, they went off line…they were decimated and did not take part in the Iwo Jima fight…two entirely new divisions had to be formed and trained for Iwo…the second then saw action on Okinawa, months later…the US Marines got fucking clobbered fighting the Japanese…they won out but they paid for it in terms unrealistic to the US Army’s style…in fact the Army’s combat division on Okinawa would not fight and their commander was relieved

re: #238 EmmmieG

I guess what I’m saying is that when people think of the Trade Center, they think of, to be honest, a religion, or rather extremist zealots of that religion. When they think of Pearl Harbor, they think of a nation attacking a nation.

A nation defined by militant shintoism. I don’t think the difference is so much that the Japanese lacked religious extremism so much that AQ lacked a nation.

251 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:19:26pm

re: #242 Obdicut

… and?

I’m just not getting what your point is. Sorry. I’m not trying to badger you, I’m just really not understanding why you’re saying this.

This was about there being a Shinto shrine near Pearl Harbor vs. the mosque near the Trade Center.

Go back up to #191.

252 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:20:39pm

re: #245 Obdicut

Well, given that hate crimes are a different charge, not something that comes in at sentencing, I’d agree. They are irrelevant to the sentence. They are a separate charge to be proved.

As to them being a legal fiction— I think there’s a good reason why a swastika painted on the side of a Jewish household is different than just a random spray tag.

You don’t?

take up the matter in sentencing where it belongs, not the trial

253 subsailor68  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:21:16pm

re: #230 SanFranciscoZionist

The concept behind ‘anchor babies’ has always been that people are determinedly scooting across the border as their labor pains begin, for the sole purpose of having a citizen child. The fact that no one has ever really offered evidence that this is happening, that it’s done deliberately, or that it gives the parents any advantage has completely failed to get people to stop talking about it as though it were some sort of established factual phenomenon.

Hi SFZ. It does appear that some do come across for that purpose - how many is certainly open to question. Here’s an article from CBS news:

Illegal Immigrant Births - At Your Expense

The uncompensated cost to McCallen Texas Medical Center does seem pretty significant at $200 million a year.

254 tradewind  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:21:44pm

re: #248 SanFranciscoZionist

I don’t think would hope they can can’t vote for him anyway.


/ftfy/

256 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:22:34pm

re: #249 SpaceJesus

so glad i don’t live there anymore. i got a place near campus now.

fewer hooligans, mormon missionaries, and hookers.

I only visit for medicinal purposes…I’m up in the Los Ranchos hood

257 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:23:10pm

re: #238 EmmmieG

I guess what I’m saying is that when people think of the Trade Center, they think of, to be honest, a religion, or rather extremist zealots of that religion. When they think of Pearl Harbor, they think of a nation attacking a nation.

Well, our problem with al-Qaeda is that they’re NOT a nation-state. What we’re trying to figure out now is how you fight a war with a terror network that claims no land, has no real form of government…

With Japan, the religious fanaticism came packaged with a country. Hirohito could surrender for Japan, and have that honored by his people. Bin Laden can’t call off the jihad.

258 tradewind  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:24:00pm

re: #257 SanFranciscoZionist
But he probably could have called back the heinous nineteen.

259 webevintage  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:24:15pm

In case you are a fan, Project Runway comes back tonight.

260 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:24:17pm

re: #250 McSpiff

A nation defined by militant shintoism. I don’t think the difference is so much that the Japanese lacked religious extremism so much that AQ lacked a nation.

Ding ding ding.

261 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:24:44pm

re: #251 EmmmieG

I know. I don’t get why it’s important that the Japanese are identified as a nationalistic group and the Muslims as a religious group. I’m sorry.

262 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:25:26pm

re: #257 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, our problem with al-Qaeda is that they’re NOT a nation-state. What we’re trying to figure out now is how you fight a war with a terror network that claims no land, has no real form of government…

Well, sure they claim land.

263 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:25:33pm

re: #252 albusteve

take up the matter in sentencing where it belongs, not the trial

You just said it didn’t belong at sentencing, Steve.

Remember?

motivation in terms of hate crimes is not relevant to the sentence…if that’s what he meant, I agree

264 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:25:54pm

re: #262 Alouette

Well, sure they claim land.

all of it

265 darthstar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:26:26pm

I was watching the news while I worked out, and it appears Sheriff Arpaio is at it again, deputizing a posse and going through Western Phoenix to ‘round up illegals’…

266 tradewind  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:27:24pm

re: #253 subsailor68
McAllen’s right smack on the border, and I’m sure that a significant portion of their unrecompensed medical expense has to do with illegal aliens using their emergency room as a primary care / maternity hospital.
Humanitarian-wise, that is fine. But to ask the people of McAllen to subsidize it with their taxes is not. There are enough American citizens who cannot pay for medical care, and we owe them first.

267 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:27:34pm

re: #259 webevintage

In case you are a fan, Project Runway comes back tonight.

I’m sure my wife is ecstatic.

268 darthstar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:28:01pm

re: #259 webevintage

In case you are a fan, Project Runway comes back tonight.

Coolio…I like that show. (I’m a bit of a “seamster” myself…) I am disappointed in Top Chef this season though…can’t seem to really give a crap about anyone on that show enough to watch it regularly (except, of course, for Padma).

269 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:28:24pm

re: #258 tradewind

But he probably could have called back the heinous nineteen.

Sure, that was his operation, as far as we can tell, so presumably he could have called it off. But even if he’s still alive, he does not have the kind of authority that the head of a nation has. AQ and its affiliates have largely encouraged a DIY approach to this sort of thing. I always contrast it to, say, the IRA or the Basque terror groups. If you randomly decided to blow some shit up on your own, they would have effing kneecapped you at the least.

AQ seems happy to have assorted amateurs carrying out their own operations.

270 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:28:58pm

re: #262 Alouette

Well, sure they claim land.

Not in the sense that Japan did, though.

271 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:29:09pm

re: #263 Obdicut

what I am trying to say, not too well, is that a judge should use his discretion at sentencing in terms of hate motivation…as for the trial itself, I see no benefit to try and prosecute a hate crime…it is just too indefinate

272 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:29:18pm

re: #265 darthstar

I was watching the news while I worked out, and it appears Sheriff Arpaio is at it again, deputizing a posse and going through Western Phoenix to ‘round up illegals’…

How does a man his age find so much energy?

273 subsailor68  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:29:23pm

re: #266 tradewind

Hi tradewind! I think you’re probably right about McAllen - it certainly is right on the border.

274 palomino  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:29:29pm

re: #164 ProLifeLiberal

And here I thought that Graham wasn’t a complete nut.

Graham isn’t a complete nut; he’s actually one of the more sane GOP senators, and has shown willingness in the past to work in bipartisan manner on tough issues like climate change and immigration. And he will apparently vote FOR Elena Kagan, again breaking from most of his gop colleagues.

But he’s still a politician who doesn’t want to lose his next election. After being called a RINO by many of the right’s talking heads, and after being targeted for defeat for his occasional moderate “heresy”, and after being “outed” by some tea party extremists (who think he must be gay because he’s 55 and single), Graham seems to have made a choice. He’s got to prove his right-wing bona fides or face what McCain is getting in AZ. He’s throwing out raw meat to remind SC voters that he is “one of them”, (i.e., politics as usual.)

275 tradewind  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:29:32pm

re: #269 SanFranciscoZionist
Yeah, I think he’s bin laden the dust of Tora Bora or some other hell hole for a long time now.

276 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:29:43pm

re: #272 SanFranciscoZionist

Precious bodily fluids… /

277 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:29:48pm

re: #261 Obdicut

I know. I don’t get why it’s important that the Japanese are identified as a nationalistic group and the Muslims as a religious group. I’m sorry.

I think I see why we are going around and around. I’m not talking about logic. I’m talking about the gut-level reaction of the people who lived through the time.

There are people freaking out about the mosque. My grandparents’ generation, which lived through Pearl Harbor, took no notice of the shrine. (I have to confess I don’t know when it went in.)

The question is why the difference in reactions? When the Smithsonian was going to run an exhibit on the dropping of the bomb that was viewed as somewhat pro-Japanese, the vets groups went ballistic.


[Link: www.nytimes.com…]

278 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:29:58pm

re: #265 darthstar

I was watching the news while I worked out, and it appears Sheriff Arpaio is at it again, deputizing a posse and going through Western Phoenix to ‘round up illegals’…

he has that responsibility, no?

279 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:30:00pm

re: #270 SanFranciscoZionist

Not in the sense that Japan did, though.

I am not so sure… world domination is world domination?, no?

280 tradewind  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:30:01pm

re: #272 SanFranciscoZionist
Maybe he goes to see Alice./

281 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:30:22pm

re: #271 albusteve

So you don’t think there should be any additional charge against someone who spraypaints a swastika and “Jews are pigs” on a synagogue, beyond the standard charge for vandalism?

282 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:31:08pm

re: #275 tradewind

Yeah, I think he’s bin laden the dust of Tora Bora or some other hell hole for a long time now.

he is drinking Iced tea in Iran…

283 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:31:13pm

re: #275 tradewind

Yeah, I think he’s bin laden the dust of Tora Bora or some other hell hole for a long time now.

Maybe. Probably. I want to see the body.

284 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:31:39pm

re: #281 Obdicut

So you don’t think there should be any additional charge against someone who spraypaints a swastika and “Jews are pigs” on a synagogue, beyond the standard charge for vandalism?

correct

285 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:31:48pm

re: #277 EmmmieG

Oh, I get it.

The Shinto shrine predates WWII by a large amount.

And afterwards, people did try to shut it down.

So the situations are different, but in terms of people trying to close it down, quite similar.

286 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:32:23pm

re: #284 albusteve

correct

Well, I think that’s a very, very, very, very foolish view on your part.

It is an entirely different crime, meant to intimidate and cause fear.

287 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:32:32pm

re: #282 brookly red

he is drinking Iced tea in Iran…

Orlando…bet me
probably has a condo and a golf cart

288 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:32:36pm

re: #185 BigPapa

What Graham said may not be ‘horribly racist,’ but it sure is dehumanizing and has a very strong tinge of racism to it. Actual racists will approve of the tact and message, this is ‘dog whistle’ talk. Whether he meant to use the dog whistle or he’s just a buffoon I’m not sure of yet but I’ll be watching to see that.

I consider part of the demonization of the “other”. The populist angst in this country is strongly imbued with fear/anger at the “other”.

289 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:32:41pm

This is what passes for immigration policy today. Instead of fixing border issues systematically and logically, we hammer and punish the poor. Just like our labor policy, drug policy, transportation policy etc.

Where is his proposal to lock up employers for 20 years in prison for employing illegals?

290 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:32:53pm

re: #276 lawhawk

Precious bodily fluids… /

I mean, hell, he’s 78. I’m not forty yet, and if you asked me to ride through West Phoenix rounding up illegal immigrants, I’d probably tell you I needed a nap instead.

291 darthstar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:32:58pm

re: #278 albusteve

he has that responsibility, no?

Of course…I mean, there’s no sense investigating who shot out a window at Rep Grijalva’s office in Yuma…that’s just nothing to worry about, right? Besides, hunting illegals is much more glamorous.

292 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:32:59pm

re: #283 SanFranciscoZionist

Maybe. Probably. I want to see the body.

He’s a six foot five Arab man on dialis, why is that so f***ing hard to find? Here’s a clue, look for someone attached to their luggage!


Robin Williams.

293 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:33:19pm

re: #286 Obdicut

Well, I think that’s a very, very, very, very foolish view on your part.

It is an entirely different crime, meant to intimidate and cause fear.

I knew that

294 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:33:51pm

re: #293 albusteve

I knew that

Then why do you feel that the charge should just be vandalism, when the intent is obviously different?

295 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:34:37pm

re: #291 darthstar

Of course…I mean, there’s no sense investigating who shot out a window at Rep Grijalva’s office in Yuma…that’s just nothing to worry about, right? Besides, hunting illegals is much more glamorous.

the feds do it all the time…what’s your beef with upholding the law?

296 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:34:54pm

re: #279 brookly red

I am not so sure… world domination is world domination?, no?

In what sense? Morally? Maybe, sure.

Organizationally—no. We defeated Japan, they agreed, and the war ended. Terms were set and carried out.

We are never going to have a surrender ceremony for the War on Terror.

297 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:35:07pm

re: #294 Obdicut

Then why do you feel that the charge should just be vandalism, when the intent is obviously different?

because that’s what it is

298 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:35:24pm

re: #280 tradewind

Maybe he goes to see Alice./

Great, now we have a sheriff on drugs rounding up a posse!

299 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:35:45pm

re: #296 SanFranciscoZionist

In what sense? Morally? Maybe, sure.

Organizationally—no. We defeated Japan, they agreed, and the war ended. Terms were set and carried out.

We are never going to have a surrender ceremony for the War on Terror.

true that

300 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:36:01pm

re: #297 albusteve

because that’s what it is

So according to you, a swastika painted on a synagogue with the slogan “Jews are pigs” is just vandalism, not an attempt to intimidate Jews?

301 palomino  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:36:04pm

re: #288 freetoken

I consider part of the demonization of the “other”. The populist angst in this country is strongly imbued with fear/anger at the “other”.

Which is why the teabag movement is almost exclusively white, and its targets largely not.

302 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:36:32pm

re: #282 brookly red

he is drinking Iced tea in Iran…

You think they’ll take in a Sunni maverick like that? (Maybe, who the hell knows.)

303 tradewind  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:36:48pm

re: #261 Obdicut
Ummm, maybe because the Japanese are a group of nationals, and Muslims are members of a religion?
Just a guess.

304 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:37:03pm

re: #302 SanFranciscoZionist

You think they’ll take in a Sunni maverick like that? (Maybe, who the hell knows.)

yes I do…

305 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:37:10pm

re: #268 darthstar

Coolio…I like that show. (I’m a bit of a “seamster” myself…) I am disappointed in Top Chef this season though…can’t seem to really give a crap about anyone on that show enough to watch it regularly (except, of course, for Padma).

If you’re looking for a cooking show and you’re not burned out on Gordon Ramsay there’s a new show which just started: Master Chef
Fairly generic but watchable. American cooking shows kinda stink but at least it’s something.

306 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:37:57pm

re: #300 Obdicut

So according to you, a swastika painted on a synagogue with the slogan “Jews are pigs” is just vandalism, not an attempt to intimidate Jews?

well, there’s a difference between “what do I think it is” and “what sorts of meaning should a judge be allowed to read into it”.

307 tradewind  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:38:29pm

re: #283 SanFranciscoZionist
Not going to happen, I would bet. Dust in the wind.
I mean, I could be wrong, and he could be huddled up in a cave somewhere in Pakistan. But it just doesn’t seem credible that he’s never released one video since…. he was such a ham.
Well…. poor choice of words, but… you know what I mean.

308 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:38:39pm

re: #306 cliffster

well, there’s a difference between “what do I think it is” and “what sorts of meaning should a judge be allowed to read into it”.

Okay. Do you think a judge should not be allowed to read intimidation into that?

309 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:38:43pm

re: #292 jamesfirecat

He’s a six foot five Arab man on dialis, why is that so f***ing hard to find? Here’s a clue, look for someone attached to their luggage!

Robin Williams.

Bin Laden looks alarmingly like one of my uncles. My uncle is shorter, though, and doesn’t wear a beard.

We spent weeks not mentioning this in my family, after 9/11, until my mother finally said, “OK, this is awful, but doesn’t Bin Laden look a LOT like your Uncle Moish?”

310 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:39:13pm

re: #305 Killgore Trout

If you’re looking for a cooking show and you’re not burned out on Gordon Ramsay there’s a new show which just started: Master Chef
Fairly generic but watchable. American cooking shows kinda stink but at least it’s something.

how about a cooking show where you first have to catch what you cook? Today’s menu is alligator… ready contestants?

311 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:39:22pm

re: #300 Obdicut

So according to you, a swastika painted on a synagogue with the slogan “Jews are pigs” is just vandalism, not an attempt to intimidate Jews?

Oh, those crazy kids are just letting off steam.

312 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:39:56pm

re: #309 SanFranciscoZionist

Bin Laden looks alarmingly like one of my uncles. My uncle is shorter, though, and doesn’t wear a beard.

We spent weeks not mentioning this in my family, after 9/11, until my mother finally said, “OK, this is awful, but doesn’t Bin Laden look a LOT like your Uncle Moish?”

I’d like to think that Osama would hate that more than Moish would.

313 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:40:20pm

re: #305 Killgore Trout

Pressure Cook is a pretty good show. It’s on Hulu.

Did Hulu go to a subscription service?

314 ShaunP  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:40:40pm

re: #311 Amory Blaine

Oh, those crazy kids are just letting off steam.

I think that may be it. I can’t see how you can treat “ShaunP wuz here” the same as a friggin swastika on a synagogue…

315 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:40:55pm

re: #300 Obdicut

So according to you, a swastika painted on a synagogue with the slogan “Jews are pigs” is just vandalism, not an attempt to intimidate Jews?

yes it’s just vandalism, the effect is to intimidate….therefore the perp should get a year in jail rather than 30 days and probation…pretty simple

316 Kronocide  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:41:04pm

re: #289 Amory Blaine


Where is his proposal to lock up employers for 20 years in prison for employing illegals?

That’s a little too simplistic. Although I’m not against punishment, you’d imprison the people actually employing the migrant workers, who would then be out of work.

317 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:41:27pm

re: #303 tradewind

Ummm, maybe because the Japanese are a group of nationals, and Muslims are members of a religion?
Just a guess.

ah…good guess!

318 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:41:43pm

re: #315 albusteve

Thank you. I’m glad you agree with hate crime laws, Steve.

319 darthstar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:41:45pm

re: #305 Killgore Trout

If you’re looking for a cooking show and you’re not burned out on Gordon Ramsay there’s a new show which just started: Master Chef
Fairly generic but watchable. American cooking shows kinda stink but at least it’s something.

Nah…it’s not that important. I do like looking at the dishes they make and thinking about how I would have done them. (the gal who served a full-sized porterhouse during a five-course meal competition, for example, would have been wise to do what her competitor did, and serve small slices of each side (the NY and Filet) and focus on creating a couple of sauces. And all the fish people did the same - large fillets when a smaller portion would have been more appropriate and easier to time cooking-wise.

Flavor first, then presentation. Wins every time. Nobody loses because the judges would have liked to have another bite or two to enjoy.

320 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:41:56pm

re: #217 brookly red

murder is murder and maximum sentence is maximum sentence. motivation is irrelevant.

You know nothing about law

321 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:42:09pm

re: #316 BigPapa

That’s a little too simplistic. Although I’m not against punishment, you’d imprison the people actually employing the migrant workers, who would then be out of work.

I think I would also confiscate the business also. Just like they confiscate money from drug dealers. Maybe put it towards sane immigration policy.

322 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:42:50pm

re: #320 WindUpBird

You know nothing about law

hello bird… good night bird.

323 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:42:53pm

re: #321 Amory Blaine

Confiscating money from accused drug dealers, which is currently done without the benefit of a trial, is one of the largest injustices currently at work in our system.

324 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:42:56pm

re: #310 brookly red

how about a cooking show where you first have to catch what you cook? Today’s menu is alligator… ready contestants?

River Cottage and Kill it, cook it, eat it are two British shows that did that. You can download through torrents. I think Jaimie Oliver slaughtered a lamb once on live tv but I can’t find the episode.

325 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:43:12pm

re: #310 brookly red

how about a cooking show where you first have to catch what you cook? Today’s menu is alligator… ready contestants?

I’d pay to see that.

326 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:43:29pm

re: #321 Amory Blaine

I take it then that you don’t believe the libertarian argument that free movement of labor is just as important as any other free-trade item?

327 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:43:45pm

re: #323 Obdicut

Confiscating money from accused drug dealers, which is currently done without the benefit of a trial, is one of the largest injustices currently at work in our system.

Agreed

And if you’re found not guilty? You don’t get your stuff back.

328 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:43:47pm

re: #313 Obdicut

Pressure Cook is a pretty good show. It’s on Hulu.

Did Hulu go to a subscription service?

No, it’s still free. They have some premium service but I don’t know what you get for it.

329 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:44:11pm

re: #323 Obdicut

Confiscating money from accused drug dealers, which is currently done without the benefit of a trial, is one of the largest injustices currently at work in our system.

They would get a trial.

330 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:44:13pm

re: #324 Killgore Trout

River Cottage and Kill it, cook it, eat it are two British shows that did that. You can download through torrents. I think Jaimie Oliver slaughtered a lamb once on live tv but I can’t find the episode.

I got a taste for some shark steak…

331 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:44:40pm

re: #326 freetoken

I take it then that you don’t believe the libertarian argument that free movement of labor is just as important as any other free-trade item?

Free movement of illegal labor?

332 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:44:45pm

re: #328 Killgore Trout

Good to know, thanks.

Pressure Cook is a slightly contrived but funny show where the cook— I forget his name— is put in random locations and has to earn money at cooking jobs for his plane ticket home or else eat a penalty.

333 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:44:51pm

re: #308 Obdicut

Okay. Do you think a judge should not be allowed to read intimidation into that?

ACTIVIZZT JUDGEZZ

334 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:44:57pm

re: #318 Obdicut

Thank you. I’m glad you agree with hate crime laws, Steve.

enjoy your cookie…but consider that I didn’t…the crime is vandalism, the sentence reflects any other factors involved….more like hate sentencing, not hate crime…get it now?

335 darthstar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:45:56pm

re: #323 Obdicut

Confiscating money from accused drug dealers, which is currently done without the benefit of a trial, is one of the largest injustices currently at work in our system.

Not just money, but property. I think it was during Reagan’s admin that they started that practice. I remember reading that there were more than a few very rich people who got pissed off when their kids got busted on their yachts in Florida with a half ounce of coke, or coming back from Canada in dad’s car with a roach in the ashtray.

336 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:45:57pm

re: #313 Obdicut

Pressure Cook is a pretty good show. It’s on Hulu.

Did Hulu go to a subscription service?

Here it is. I’ll give it a try. Thanks for the tip.

337 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:46:26pm

re: #330 brookly red

I got a taste for some shark steak…

yes, and swordfish
mmmm….

338 ShaunP  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:47:19pm

re: #330 brookly red

I got a taste for some shark steak…

Just FYI, shark fisheries are one of the least sustainable in the world. Top predator with a low birth rate that lives a long time and builds up a lot of mercury in it’s flesh. Overfishing is a real problem…

*hippie off!*

I’m down for some gator though…

339 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:47:21pm

re: #331 Amory Blaine

Free movement of illegal labor?

In libertarian idealism, free movement of people across borders (for purposes of work) would not be illegal.

340 Randall Gross  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:47:34pm

re: #328 Killgore Trout

No, it’s still free. They have some premium service but I don’t know what you get for it.

Complete series instead of just the most recent five EPs and things like that….

341 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:47:35pm

re: #335 darthstar

Not just money, but property. I think it was during Reagan’s admin that they started that practice. I remember reading that there were more than a few very rich people who got pissed off when their kids got busted on their yachts in Florida with a half ounce of coke, or coming back from Canada in dad’s car with a roach in the ashtray.

Since we’re talking about how the fuzz can mess with you this felt like a prudent link to post….

[Link: www.cracked.com…]

342 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:48:34pm

re: #308 Obdicut

Okay. Do you think a judge should not be allowed to read intimidation into that?

I’m not sure what I think about hate crime laws. It seems like allowing for pretty subjective judgments. On the other hand, from my perception (I don’t really know any numbers), it seems effective and I don’t think anyone is accusing anyone of abusing it.

343 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:48:48pm

re: #338 ShaunP

Just FYI, shark fisheries are one of the least sustainable in the world. Top predator with a low birth rate that lives a long time and builds up a lot of mercury in it’s flesh. Overfishing is a real problem…

*hippie off!*

I’m down for some gator though…

no them little sand sharks are are plentiful… want proof? try to catch something else.

344 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:48:49pm

re: #334 albusteve

enjoy your cookie…but consider that I didn’t…the crime is vandalism, the sentence reflects any other factors involved…more like hate sentencing, not hate crime…get it now?

Sure. It makes no real difference at all.

345 tradewind  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:48:56pm

re: #325 SanFranciscoZionist
Very very large hook ( as in meat hook) , big rotten chicken breast, two empty milk jugs on trot lines.
Gator grabs the chicken and goes under, taking the milk jugs with him. When you see the jugs, you know he’s hooked, and then he’s reeled in.
Not pretty, but works.

346 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:49:19pm

Before you guys get your hooks too deep in me, let me say this, I also believe that immigrant labor quotas need to rise if the market needs it. If farmers need migrant labor, they should get it as needed, and easily all above board and with documentation.

347 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:49:41pm

re: #339 freetoken

In libertarian idealism, free movement of people across borders (for purposes of work) would not be illegal.

I agree.

348 tradewind  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:50:37pm

re: #337 albusteve
re: #330 brookly red
Mercury Rising.

349 Randall Gross  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:50:41pm

I suspect that eventually everything will be online and available for free streaming at all times. It just makes sense. If someone wants to watch something obscure like this and you can play some ads with it….

Some ads and some revenue is better than no ads and no revenue while something collects dust in an archive.

So I am predicting that “Premium Hulu” will not work for very long.

350 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:51:26pm

re: #344 Obdicut

Sure. It makes no real difference at all.

then why have you spent so much effort on the subject?….to ‘win’?…you can’t

351 Kronocide  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:52:39pm

re: #335 darthstar

Not just money, but property. I think it was during Reagan’s admin that they started that practice. I remember reading that there were more than a few very rich people who got pissed off when their kids got busted on their yachts in Florida with a half ounce of coke, or coming back from Canada in dad’s car with a roach in the ashtray.

It got worse than that. Some jurisdictions would actually test for cocaine on any found cash of any significant level. At one point in time some 80% of $100 bills in circulation had cocaine contamination. This led to cash being confiscated as ‘drug money’ merely because it had cocaine contamination.

Departments furthered this pursuit because the jurisdiction that confiscated the money was allowed to keep it for their departmental budget.

You had people moving cross country (usual targets) with all the belongings and cash with them, pulled over, getting their savings taken and having to prove their innocence.

Putting a bunch of business owners in jail because they hired illegal aliens is a very clumsy solution with huge downside potential.

352 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:53:09pm

re: #350 albusteve

then why have you spent so much effort on the subject?…to ‘win’?…you can’t

To win what? What are you talking about?

Are there prizes?

How come no one told me?

Hate crimes— or rather, crimes of intimidation against a portion of the populace— are an important topic worth spending energy on.

353 ShaunP  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:53:23pm

re: #350 albusteve

then why have you spent so much effort on the subject?…to ‘win’?…you can’t

If Obdi is anything like me, he wasn’t trying to win. I followed that conversation from start to finish to try and understand the reasoning…

354 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:53:53pm

On topic, and more:

SCHLAFLY DOES IT AGAIN….

In Michigan’s 9th congressional district, Republicans hope to take down freshman Rep. Gary Peters (D) in what has historically been a relatively “red” area. One of the leading GOP candidates is Andrew “Rocky” Raczkowski, who apparently thought it’d be a good idea to prove his right-wing bona fides by campaigning with Phyllis Schlafly, founder of the far-right Eagle Forum.

What could possibly go wrong? Well, for one thing, Schlafly could start sharing some of her radical beliefs in public. (via Melissa McEwan)

During her speech at a Saturday fundraiser at the American Polish Cultural Center in Troy for Oakland County congressional candidate Andrew “Rocky” Raczkowski, Schlafly compared unmarried women to welfare recipients.

The conservative commentator is under fire from many women’s rights groups for her comments.

“Seventy percent of unmarried women voted for Obama,” Schlafly said in her speech. “And this is because when you kick your husband out, you gotta have Big Brother government to be your provider.”

Schlafly went on to note that President Obama was elected thanks to support from “the blacks,” before lamenting all the babies born “illegitimately” in the U.S. The Obama administration, she added, “wants to continue to subsidize this group because they know they are Democratic votes.”

Schlafly just appears to be a rather mainstream Tea Partier, no? So what’s all the hullaballoo about? This is the new “normal”, as Sen. Graham as demonstrated.

355 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:54:02pm

re: #349 Thanos

I suspect that eventually everything will be online and available for free streaming at all times. It just makes sense. If someone wants to watch something obscure like this and you can play some ads with it…

Some ads and some revenue is better than no ads and no revenue while something collects dust in an archive.

So I am predicting that “Premium Hulu” will not work for very long.

I don’t think it will last long either. Especially when Net flix is cheaper and has a better selection.

356 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:54:35pm

re: #353 ShaunP

If Obdi is anything like me, he wasn’t trying to win. I followed that conversation from start to finish to try and understand the reasoning…

I play once in a while

357 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:55:25pm

re: #352 Obdicut

To win what? What are you talking about?

Are there prizes?

How come no one told me?

Hate crimes— or rather, crimes of intimidation against a portion of the populace— are an important topic worth spending energy on.

but you stated “it makes no difference at all”

358 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:56:39pm

re: #357 albusteve

but you stated “it makes no difference at all”

It makes no difference whether you contradict your previous statement that it shouldn’t be used at sentencing and be used at sentencing for whatever crime, or be a separate crime. Except that it’s harder to defend against when it’s in sentencing, so I was wrong; you favor a harsher version of hate crime laws than I do.

359 ShaunP  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:56:42pm

re: #357 albusteve

but you stated “it makes no difference at all”

The end result of your and Obdi’s reasoning is the same thing; longer sentence for someone who’s motive was to intimidate…

360 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:56:45pm

re: #351 BigPapa

It got worse than that. Some jurisdictions would actually test for cocaine on any found cash of any significant level. At one point in time some 80% of $100 bills in circulation had cocaine contamination. This led to cash being confiscated as ‘drug money’ merely because it had cocaine contamination.

Departments furthered this pursuit because the jurisdiction that confiscated the money was allowed to keep it for their departmental budget.

You had people moving cross country (usual targets) with all the belongings and cash with them, pulled over, getting their savings taken and having to prove their innocence.

Putting a bunch of business owners in jail because they hired illegal aliens is a very clumsy solution with huge downside potential.

Hey I agree, but if congress goes down this road of punishing people, locking them up, changing the constitution etc., then all players need to be at the table.

361 allegro  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:58:20pm

re: #354 freetoken

“And this is because when you kick your husband out, you gotta have Big Brother government to be your provider.”

Yeah, because no woman can possibly be self-supporting and all. Where the heck is my check, Big Brother?

362 brennant  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:58:58pm

re: #354 freetoken

Frightening.

363 Kronocide  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:59:41pm

re: #339 freetoken

In libertarian idealism, free movement of people across borders (for purposes of work) would not be illegal.

I’m for the idealism, but just like capitalism, it’s not meant to operate in a vacuum, to the absolute.

If all for relatively free movement across borders, as long as other issues are addressed. Easier said than done.

364 Ericus58  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:01:09pm

I’ve been away for the past 6 days… my son completed some ROTC training at Ft.Lewis and we had a blast on vacation.

Are we missing any of the regular Lizzards? Empty deck chairs?

365 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:01:43pm

re: #358 Obdicut

It makes no difference whether you contradict your previous statement that it shouldn’t be used at sentencing and be used at sentencing for whatever crime, or be a separate crime. Except that it’s harder to defend against when it’s in sentencing, so I was wrong; you favor a harsher version of hate crime laws than I do.

there is a distinction between the crime and the sentencing….there is no such thing as a hate crime…it is entirely subjective…if you assault a gay, you’ve assaulted a person, that’s the crime…if the crime is particularly heinous in some regard, that should indeed reflect on the sentence…prosecution doesn’t need hate for a conviction

366 Kronocide  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:01:51pm

re: #349 Thanos

I suspect that eventually everything will be online and available for free streaming at all times. It just makes sense. If someone wants to watch something obscure like this and you can play some ads with it…

Some ads and some revenue is better than no ads and no revenue while something collects dust in an archive.

So I am predicting that “Premium Hulu” will not work for very long.

The makers of media storage devices are sweating right now. In the near future local storage will only be used to buffer download services, as the internet gets faster. My business is going through a lot of changes fast.

367 justaminute  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:03:56pm

The last two days I have been stuck at home while my roof is being replaced due to the last bad storms in Oklahoma. Our roofing co. has been in the state for 40 years. We ‘re probably the tenth house on our street alone that has their roof replaced and the one thing in common is all the laborers were 100% Hispanic. The first day of my roofing replacement there was 14 laborers there and no one but one spoke English because when I had a problem they would have to go get him.

In Oklahoma we are second to AZ in anti-immigrant laws. It’s funny that OK passes these laws then closes their eyes when the labor is hard. Replacing hundreds of roofs in 98 to 100 degree temperatures would cost how much if the labor was paid with legal labor? I bet it’s a lot more than insurance companies or homeowners will want to pay. No one has been calling ICE even though 2 lawyer’s and a Judge live on this street. What defines an “employer” and should be penalized? Or send us all to jail for hiring illegals?
As a business owner all this just makes me shake my head.

368 darthstar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:04:13pm

A friend of mine got a new dog…a stray. Cute little thing, but he’s afraid to put a collar on it.

369 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:05:06pm

re: #365 albusteve

How many times are you going to flip-flop on this?

370 Kragar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:05:42pm

re: #368 darthstar

A friend of mine got a new dog…a stray. Cute little thing, but he’s afraid to put a collar on it.

PUPPY!

371 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:05:50pm

re: #365 albusteve

.if the crime is particularly heinous in some regard,,,,

That in and of itself could be further charges. The charge determines the sentencing guidelines. Extra charges, extra sentence(s)

372 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:06:17pm

re: #369 Obdicut

How many times are you going to flip-flop on this?

whatever…if you can’t get my drift, I really don’t care

373 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:06:50pm

re: #368 darthstar

A friend of mine got a new dog…a stray. Cute little thing, but he’s afraid to put a collar on it.

Just tell you friend he only has to (is able to) do it once!!
/

374 darthstar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:08:59pm

re: #370 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

PUPPY!

They really are beautiful creatures. This little guy surprised my wife two ski seasons ago while she was doing dishes. Just put his nose against the glass to ask if she had any noms for him. He’s about 1/3 the size of the one linked above.

375 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:09:13pm

re: #371 sattv4u2

Did you actually find the package. My tracking number indicates it was delivered. Como?

376 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:09:14pm

re: #372 albusteve

Your drift was first that:

take up the matter in sentencing where it belongs, not the trial

and then it was

motivation in terms of hate crimes is not relevant to the sentence…if that’s what he meant, I agree

and then it was:

yes it’s just vandalism, the effect is to intimidate…therefore the perp should get a year in jail rather than 30 days and probation…pretty simple

and now it’s:

if the crime is particularly heinous in some regard, that should indeed reflect on the sentence

You’ve gone beyond drifts, into tides.

377 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:09:16pm

re: #354 freetoken

On topic, and more:

SCHLAFLY DOES IT AGAIN…

Schlafly just appears to be a rather mainstream Tea Partier, no? So what’s all the hullaballoo about? This is the new “normal”, as Sen. Graham as demonstrated.

She has been pissing me off for 35 years. She must be darn old by now.

378 Randall Gross  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:09:36pm

re: #366 BigPapa

The makers of media storage devices are sweating right now. In the near future local storage will only be used to buffer download services, as the internet gets faster. My business is going through a lot of changes fast.

I’m just wondering how much longer DVD’s are going to last, between the fact that streaming is getting cheaper, bandwidth greater, and static large storage chips are getting dirt cheap (I’ve seen 8GB SD’s for

379 ShaunP  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:10:51pm

re: #378 Thanos

I’m just wondering how much longer DVD’s are going to last, between the fact that streaming is getting cheaper, bandwidth greater, and static large storage chips are getting dirt cheap (I’ve seen 8GB SD’s for

less than sign strikes again!

380 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:11:16pm

re: #377 wrenchwench

I thought it was rather kind of her to summarize the opposition to President Obama so clearly for us.

Ms Schlafly - the pundits best friend.

381 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:11:58pm

re: #375 Walter L. Newton

Did you actually find the package. My tracking number indicates it was delivered. Como?

Perry!?!?!

I’m sure it arrived at work, but I’m on vacation till Tuesday and don’t dare call there to check lest they tell me I have to come back early for some stupid reason (which has happened in the past!!)

No way I’m cutting my vacation short. I won’t even be driving home from South Carolina till Sunday afternoon at the earliest

382 darthstar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:12:07pm

re: #373 sattv4u2

Just tell you friend he only has to (is able to) do it once!!
/

Heh…that reminds me of the joke we used to tell when we were kids about the guy who took a bet to 1) drink a quart of whiskey, 2) pull a tooth from a live bear and 3) sleep with a rather heinous looking prostitute. After step 2, he comes staggering out of the room and says, “Where’s that hooker, I need to pull her tooth.”

383 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:12:13pm

re: #376 Obdicut

Your drift was first that:

You’ve gone beyond drifts, into tides.

do you understand my position or not?
yes or no

384 jaunte  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:12:26pm

re: #364 Ericus58

I’ve been away for the past 6 days… my son completed some ROTC training at Ft.Lewis and we had a blast on vacation.

Are we missing any of the regular Lizzards? Empty deck chairs?

I was probably at Ft. Lewis at the same time as you last week; just helped my daughter move down to New Mexico after she got out.

385 Randall Gross  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:13:14pm

re: #379 ShaunP

Yep, it got me…

386 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:14:04pm

re: #381 sattv4u2

I’m sorry. I keep forgetting that. That’s fine.

387 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:14:46pm

re: #384 jaunte

I was probably at Ft. Lewis at the same time as you last week; just helped my daughter move down to New Mexico after she got out.

where is she?

388 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:15:05pm

re: #383 albusteve

do you understand my position or not?
yes or no

Which position? You’ve adopted about three.

389 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:15:42pm

re: #388 Obdicut

Which position? You’ve adopted about three.

wrong answer…case closed

390 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:15:49pm

re: #388 Obdicut

Which position? You’ve adopted about three.

The forth one.

391 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:16:09pm

re: #386 Walter L. Newton

I’m sorry. I keep forgetting that. That’s fine.

n/p ,, so ,, did I tell you that I’m on vacation and won’t get the package until ,,,,,

:)

392 Kronocide  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:16:25pm

re: #378 Thanos

I’m just wondering how much longer DVD’s are going to last, between the fact that streaming is getting cheaper, bandwidth greater, and static large storage chips are getting dirt cheap (I’ve seen 8GB SD’s for

I saw 4GB flash drives for $9 today.

DVD’s won’t disappear, it’s just that they won’t be replaced with a new medium, at least for the mass produced. We’re fast reaching a point similar to Moore’s Law: video resolution only looks so good on a small screen once you get past 1080P.

Once you can stream 1080P in real time to a 50” plasma on demand the media server market is done. It’s not there, yet, but you can get 480p streamed to a 50” display. People think it’s cool even though the picture quality is crappy. Look at AppleTV and YouTube.

People will pick convenience over quality every time.

I think there will be a market for 4k native video for home theater enthusiasts and movie theater because higher resolution matters in those mediums, but not for the rest of us. That may be on somme kind of disc, or a chip, or downloadable (but you have to ‘wait’ a few minutes for the buffer to fill).

393 jaunte  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:16:50pm

re: #387 albusteve

She’s in Alamogordo now. Older sister was Air Force, with a husband still in.

394 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:16:54pm

re: #390 Walter L. Newton

The forth one.

I’ll take the Fifth!

((no,, wait,, I’m still on vacation ,,I’ll DRINK the fifth!!)

395 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:17:22pm

re: #390 Walter L. Newton

The forth one.

sup Walter?
I got a date with the chopper next month

396 Ericus58  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:17:50pm

re: #384 jaunte

I was probably at Ft. Lewis at the same time as you last week; just helped my daughter move down to New Mexico after she got out.

How cool! Congratulations to her, and hope the best in her future.

He was there for LDAC and had a graduation on this past Saturday. My wife and I live in the county just north so we attended and brought him home for some relax time before his senior year at university. My wife called him ‘cadet’ during his stay….lol

397 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:18:32pm

re: #393 jaunte

She’s in Alamogordo now. Older sister was Air Force, with a husband still in.

it’s nice down there…the Sacramento Mts are beautiful…I’ll bet she likes it

398 darthstar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:18:43pm

NV Governor candidate Brian Sandoval (R) identifies himself as ‘Hispanic’ but let this little verbal slip out on Univision when asked about his support for SB-1070 in Arizona:

It wasn’t long ago that he said in an interview on Univision that he vehemently supported Arizona’s anti-immigrant law. In reference to the same law, he was asked how he would feel if he his children were stopped in the street and asked for their papers. He answered, with a note of pride in his voice, “my children don’t look Hispanic.”
399 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:19:49pm

re: #395 albusteve

sup Walter?
I got a date with the chopper next month

I’ll come down and hold your hand. Or your dope :) You know we’ve talked about this on the phone… if that’s what the doc thinks is best, then it’s better than those veins constantly shutting down and causing other complications, ones that the doc may not be able to fix.

Let’s talk as you see fit… ok?

400 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:19:50pm

re: #398 darthstar

Classy

401 jaunte  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:20:29pm

re: #397 albusteve

Yes, they love being able to head up for just a half hour into the cool altitudes when it gets too hot down in the basin.

402 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:20:31pm

re: #399 Walter L. Newton

I’ll come down and hold your hand. Or your dope :) You know we’ve talked about this on the phone… if that’s what the doc thinks is best, then it’s better than those veins constantly shutting down and causing other complications, ones that the doc may not be able to fix.

Let’s talk as you see fit… ok?

I’ll call soon bro

403 Ericus58  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:21:06pm

re: #395 albusteve

sup Walter?
I got a date with the chopper next month

Best to you, Steve. Be well, Bro.

404 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:22:16pm

re: #402 albusteve

I’ll call soon bro

Steve

If you ever need another old crumudgeon (besides Walter) to yak at I would be happy to lend an ear!

Walter has my contact info

405 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:22:21pm

re: #401 jaunte

Yes, they love being able to head up for just a half hour into the cool altitudes when it gets too hot down in the basin.

a unique thing…visitors are amazed when the can go from high desert to ponderosa alpine zones in a few minutes

406 darthstar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:23:03pm

Tomorrow will have to be a work from home day…which means Banjo gets to do this (only not sideways)

Youtube Video
407 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:23:13pm

re: #403 Ericus58

re: #404 sattv4u2

just a scratch…I’ll survive

408 zora  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:25:48pm

re: #377 wrenchwench

She has been pissing me off for 35 years. She must be darn old by now.

the first comment make me chuckle:

That lady has been a bit unhimged since the Devil turned her son gay.

409 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:26:01pm

re: #407 albusteve

re: #404 sattv4u2

just a scratch…I’ll survive

I know you will
I wasn’t offering to talk about THAT
I was offering to listen to you cry about how bad Tony Romo is!!

:)

410 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:26:55pm

re: #409 sattv4u2

I know you will
I wasn’t offering to talk about THAT
I was offering to listen to you cry about how bad Tony Romo is!!

:)

heh…soon come d/a
you need an education?

411 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:30:12pm

re: #410 albusteve

heh…soon come d/a
you need an education?

can’t teach an old dog new tricks
Hell,, in my case, I forget most of my OLD tricks!

412 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:30:43pm

re: #409 sattv4u2

I know you will
I wasn’t offering to talk about THAT
I was offering to listen to you cry about how bad Tony Romo is!!

:)

This Tony Romo?

413 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:33:01pm

re: #411 sattv4u2

can’t teach an old dog new tricks
Hell,, in my case, I forget most of my OLD tricks!

well, you hammered me before…this year I’m coming loaded (?)
Romo had a career year last season…on paper the CBs are awesome…number 2 defense for points against last season, but 28th in +TOs …go figure

414 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:33:38pm

re: #412 tnguitarist

This Tony Romo?

yup, that’s the deadbeat

415 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:35:44pm

re: #412 tnguitarist

This Tony Romo?

That would be him, he of the 1-3 post season record! (iirc)

416 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:36:26pm

re: #415 sattv4u2

That would be him, he of the 1-3 post season record! (iirc)

Oy. Teams play the game.

417 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:37:43pm

re: #415 sattv4u2

That would be him, he of the 1-3 post season record! (iirc)

yes, a one man TEAM….d/a
offensive lineman don’t count…and in the Vikings game, they were certainly offensive

418 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:38:01pm

re: #411 sattv4u2

can’t teach an old dog new tricks
Hell,, in my case, I forget most of my OLD tricks!

You know you’re getting old when you are sitting alone at home on a Sat. night and the phone rings, and you hop it’s not for you.

419 garhighway  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:41:16pm

re: #109 lawhawk

The only names to name are himself, his son Steven, and perhaps his wife. He’s got no one else to blame for his mess. He alone was responsible for his tax mess (even as he tried at one point to blame his wife for the tax mess). He was responsible for sending out solicitations for donations for his public policy center on his House letterhead, failing to pay taxes on his Dominican villa, etc.

Hard to see how his case gets better by naming names or pointing the finger. If his goal is to win, that is a bad strategy. Since he is sleazy and sloppy but not stupid, I find that an unlikely course for him to take.

420 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:41:49pm

re: #416 tnguitarist

Oy. Teams play the game.

Leaders WILL their teams to victory (see Brady, Tom,, Manning, Peyton,, Manning, Eli,,,Brees, Drew)

In each of those cases their teams were good, but were NOT expected to win the S/B that particular year

421 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 3:31:58pm

re: #354 freetoken

On topic, and more:

SCHLAFLY DOES IT AGAIN…

Schlafly just appears to be a rather mainstream Tea Partier, no? So what’s all the hullaballoo about? This is the new “normal”, as Sen. Graham as demonstrated.

Phyllis, as always, can kiss my married, tax-paying, wage-earning ass.

422 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:54:40pm

re: #420 sattv4u2

Leaders WILL their teams to victory (see Brady, Tom,, Manning, Peyton,, Manning, Eli,,,Brees, Drew)

In each of those cases their teams were good, but were NOT expected to win the S/B that particular year

Why didn’t Brady will his team to victory when they went 16-0, since he is so positive in the willpower/game stat column? If will is all it takes, why do teams pay so much money for that talent thing?

423 bigred1961  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 1:31:14pm

Sen. Graham used disgusting, foul language in his description of illegals “dropping” babies.
Now as to the charge that the right wing is trying to repeal part of the 14th amendment I am going to throw this out there which is from a (claimed) Constitutional scholar.

“Dr. John C. Eastman, Dean of Chapman University’s law school in Orange, California, is among the leading scholars in the nation on constitutional law and has testified before Congress on the issue of birthright citizenship. Eastman states plainly that the framers of the 14th Amendment had no intention of allowing another country to wage demographic warfare against the U.S. and reshaping its culture by means of exploiting birthright citizenship.

“We have this common understanding of when you come here to visit, that you are subject to our jurisdiction. You have to obey our traffic laws. If you come here from England, you have to drive on the right side of the road and not on the left side of the road,” he said. “But the framers of the 14th Amendment had in mind two different notions of ‘subject to the jurisdiction.’ There was what they called territorial jurisdiction— you have to follow the laws in the place where you are—but there was also this more complete, or allegiance-owing jurisdiction that held that you not only have to follow the laws, but that you owe allegiance to the sovereign. And that doesn’t come by just visiting here. That comes by taking an oath of support and becoming part of the body politic. And it is that jurisdiction that they are talking about in the 14th Amendment.”

This article is at [Link: www.capsweb.org…]

Now the source of this article seems pretty shaky and I know virtually nothing about the organization behind this website. In fact, some of the comments on their forum are down right disgusting.
But I did a little research on the Dr. John C. Eastman and he seems to be what is claimed. He has a PHD in Government with Constitutional Law being one of his areas of study as well as a JD from University of Chicago Law and clerked with Justice Thomas at the SCOTUS
I might get my head bitten off for poking it out of my hole where I usually stay hidden, but oh well…

424 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 7:50:39pm

re: #423 bigred1961

You posted in a two-day old thread. Why?


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