Fox News Admits ‘Breakdown’ on Sherrod Story

Media • Views: 5,987

This is classic. The wingnut blogs are still ranting that Fox never aired a story about the Sherrod case until she had already resigned, pretending not to be aware that Fox did run stories on their websites, foxnews.com and thefoxnation.com.

Today Fox suit Michael Clemente admitted there was ‘a breakdown’.

The first mention of the Sherrod video, which surfaced on Monday, July19th on Andrew Breitbart’s biggovernment.com, was made later that day on Bill O’Reilly’s 8 p.m. show. O’Reilly later apologized for how he characterized Sherrod.�

But foxnews.com did run a story about the existence of the video, titled “Video Shows USDA Official Saying She Didn’t Give ‘Full Force’ of Help to White Farmer” at 5:58 p.m. on Monday, an hour before the Agriculture Department announced Sherrod’s resignation. And Wednesday, Clemente told POLITICO that was a mistake.

“There was a breakdown in the system, and it is being addressed,” he said. “But it must say something about the power of Fox, that a week after she resigned, we’re still talking about this.”

Snort.

Jump to bottom

796 comments
1 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 4:58:40pm

Yes there was a breakdown in the system, and if anything like this happens again we’ll fire whoever is responsible BECAUSE THERE IS A ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY FOR ERRORS AT FOX, AND WE MEAN IT!

WE ARE SERIOUS JOURNALISTS!

2 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:00:12pm

Better to admit it amd move on, hopefully with a lesson learned along the way. And on a related topic, how long did it take CBS news to admit their “breakdown” after Charles busted them in the Rathergate Memo Affair?

3 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:03:43pm

re: #2 _RememberTonyC

The Rathergate story was a lot more complicated than the fake Sharrod tape. Dan Rather was fired. Nobody’s going to lose their job at Fox for pushing a bogus story. They do it all day long every day.

4 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:04:29pm

Fox is not your friend…times have changed Lizards
I hate the MSM

5 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:04:37pm

Appropriately, from the Southern Accents Tour:

Youtube Video

6 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:04:57pm

He still had to get in a dig about the awesomeness of Fox.

7 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:07:20pm

re: #3 Killgore Trout

The Rathergate story was a lot more complicated than the fake Sharrod tape. Dan Rather was fired. Nobody’s going to lose their job at Fox for pushing a bogus story. They do it all day long every day.

bottom line is that both were examples of a media outlet acting badly. that is all i see, and CBS stonwalled for quite some time before acting contrite. FOX is no angel, but CBS attempted political dirty tricks on a much larger scale than Shirleygate. To repeat, I am not defending FOX. They were wrong.

8 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:08:34pm

re: #6 tnguitarist

He still had to get in a dig about the awesomeness of Fox.

Even if it is faulty logic.

“Our fuck-up was so awesome, folks are still talking about what awesome fuck-ups we are!”

9 darthstar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:08:49pm

O’Reilly didn’t exactly “apologize” to Ms. Sherrod. He said that the facts were not as they first appeared, but that he still felt she was unfit for employment within our government. That’s some apology.

10 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:11:05pm

I could give a rats ass about Fox’s credibility…
I have dinner to rundown…fuck the MSM, tuning in only supports their drivel

11 allegro  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:13:14pm

re: #10 albusteve

I have dinner to rundown

Roadkill barbecue?

12 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:13:58pm

The power of Fox is the power of the Big Lie.

13 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:14:50pm

re: #11 allegro

Roadkill barbecue?

actually, in Jamaica, Rundown is a stew made with baracuda…a fine delicacy considering how hard it is to catch a cuda

14 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:16:40pm

re: #12 Cato the Elder

The power of Fox is the power of the Big Lie.

bunch of simps, tuning into Beck every night…and then bitch about the lunacy all day long when they promote it…good lord

15 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:17:45pm

Reine, input?

16 RadicalModerate  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:19:24pm

“But it must say something about the power of Fox, that a week after she resigned, we’re still talking about this.”


When everyone outside of the right-wing echo chamber is talking about it from a standpoint of it being a fabricated story, and about the upcoming libel and/or defamation lawsuit that’s forthcoming, is “the power of Fox” something that you really want to be trumpeting at this time?

17 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:21:13pm

re: #16 RadicalModerate

“But it must say something about the power of Fox, that a week after she resigned, we’re still talking about this.”

When everyone outside of the right-wing echo chamber is talking about it from a standpoint of it being a fabricated story, and about the upcoming libel and/or defamation lawsuit that’s forthcoming, is “the power of Fox” something that you really want to be trumpeting at this time?

Fox has zero to trumpet…they are corrupt

18 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:21:14pm

Fox Noise should really start being honest with their viewers, they are nothing more than the National Enquirer disguised as a tv network.

19 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:22:47pm
“There was a breakdown in the system, and it is being addressed,” he said. “But it must say something about the power of Fox, that a week after she resigned, we’re still talking about this.”

Are you guys done stroking yourselves?

20 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:24:21pm

re: #19 JasonA

Are you guys done stroking yourselves?

///Not quite, give us another five minuets in the bathroom with Old Glory….

21 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:24:33pm

Fox admitted to screwing up? I’m in shock.

22 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:25:11pm

TV ratings and re-election…
the downfall of Amerika
bunch of stooges

23 simoom  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:25:41pm

It’s interesting to me how much effort FOX has been putting into insisting Sherrod was forced to resign before they touched the story. Even if we ignore the facts and allow them that, it was entirely predictable how FNC would have covered the story, and how they covered it post-resignation, before the story turned the next day, proves it. They were perfectly happy to tie it into their “Black Supremacist Obama Admin” narrative they’ve been constructing for most of his Presidency, and especially in the last couple of months. They must understand that their past behavior and their readied media megaphone shapes Washington politics even before they act?

24 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:26:05pm

my experience with hardcore wingnuts seems to demonstrate that even fox news can be classified by them as ‘liberals’ or ‘mainstream media’ if they dare to report something that violates wingnuttian ideology

25 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:26:20pm

re: #19 JasonA

Are you guys done stroking yourselves?

Don’t they have a word for that?

26 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:26:25pm

The Media Matters timeline is nice. Sure shows who the usual suspects are.

Breitbart

Gateway Pundit

HotAir

Ace of Spades

Drudge

etc.

27 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:27:02pm

re: #25 b_sharp

Don’t they have a word for that?

yes, ratings
$$$

28 allegro  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:28:02pm

I think “breakdown in the system” is rather equivalent to a “wardrobe malfunction.” Something a lowly seamstress may be busted for but not exactly an admission of culpability.

29 simoom  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:28:13pm

re: #26 wrenchwench

The Media Matters timeline is nice. Sure shows who the usual suspects are.

You must have copied in the wrong link. I think this is the one you intended ;-)

mediamatters.org

30 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:28:24pm

re: #27 albusteve

yes, ratings
$$$

You mean people are paying to take part in the Fox circle-jerk?

31 simoom  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:30:20pm

re: #29 simoom

You must have copied in the wrong link. I think this is the one you intended ;-)

[Link: mediamatters.org…]

Oops, my apologies. That politico article you linked to summarizes the MediaMatters timeline. Sorry about that :P.

32 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:30:57pm

re: #24 engineer dog

my experience with hardcore wingnuts seems to demonstrate that even fox news can be classified by them as ‘liberals’ or ‘mainstream media’ if they dare to report something that violates wingnuttian ideology

I do see that on some of the wingnuttier blogs—some of them are dubious about Fox’s absolute commitment to the cause.

33 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:32:05pm

Time to call it a day.

Night Lizards.

34 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:34:48pm

re: #31 simoom

Oops, my apologies. That politico article you linked to summarizes the MediaMatters timeline. Sorry about that :P.

Ooops, this is the one I intended!

35 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:37:45pm

re: #33 Bubblehead II

Time to call it a day.

Night Lizards.

Me too.

Image: funny-pictures-cat-situation-is-awkward.jpg

36 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:40:57pm

re: #32 SanFranciscoZionist

I do see that on some of the wingnuttier blogs—some of them are dubious about Fox’s absolute commitment to the cause.

the depths of the true believers’ ideologies are apparantly bottomless. i have just been corresponding with an individual who is sure ronald reagan was mistaken when he referred to the united states as a democracy - “it’s a republic, not a democracy!!!” - and regrets RR’s conversion to the support of ss and medicare

and, of course, we now find out from many wingnuts that george w bush was really a “closet liberal”

37 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:44:06pm

Fox may be the worst of the lot but it may also be a handy scapegoat to bash while some give the rest of the MSM a pass.

38 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:45:57pm

re: #37 Spare O’Lake

Fox may be the worst of the lot but it may also be a handy scapegoat to bash while some give the rest of the MSM a pass.

Hi Mr. Tu Quoque, would you like some cheese to go with that whine?

39 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:46:46pm

re: #36 engineer dog

the depths of the true believers’ ideologies are apparantly bottomless. i have just been corresponding with an individual who is sure ronald reagan was mistaken when he referred to the united states as a democracy - “it’s a republic, not a democracy!!!” - and regrets RR’s conversion to the support of ss and medicare

and, of course, we now find out from many wingnuts that george w bush was really a “closet liberal”

There seems to be a trend amongst our less stable brethren toward this business with ‘a republic, not a democracy!’. Does anyone know what this means to them? Is it simply that they think the forms of government correspond to the party names? I’m baffled.

40 allegro  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:47:33pm

re: #39 SanFranciscoZionist

Is it simply that they think the forms of government correspond to the party names?

I do believe that is the “logic”.

41 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:47:45pm

re: #32 SanFranciscoZionist

I do see that on some of the wingnuttier blogs—some of them are dubious about Fox’s absolute commitment to the cause.

Paranoid schizophrenia has no allies.

42 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:51:17pm

re: #38 jamesfirecat

Hi Mr. Tu Quoque, would you like some cheese to go with that whine?

poodle

43 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:51:42pm

re: #42 albusteve

poodle

bichon frise

44 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:52:23pm

re: #43 SanFranciscoZionist

bichon frise

that too

45 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:53:08pm

re: #44 albusteve

that too

pomeranian?

46 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:53:59pm

re: #45 SanFranciscoZionist

pomeranian?

yes, all snippy little shit canines…
I don’t know all their names

47 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:55:17pm

I thought we were listing toy breeds.

48 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:57:26pm

re: #38 jamesfirecat

Hi Mr. Tu Quoque, would you like some cheese to go with that whine?

No insults, please. Spare didn’t insult anyone, so please critique his point without the cattiness.

49 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:58:12pm

re: #48 Dark_Falcon

No insults, please. Spare didn’t insult anyone, so please critique his point without the cattiness.

you’re such a good guy

50 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:58:43pm

Cattiness?

What about all the dissing of dog breeds that’s going on here?

51 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:59:04pm

re: #48 Dark_Falcon

No insults, please. Spare didn’t insult anyone, so please critique his point without the cattiness.

Dark_Falcon of the Yard!

52 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:59:16pm

re: #48 Dark_Falcon

No insults, please. Spare didn’t insult anyone, so please critique his point without the cattiness.

I’m considering taking your advice, the next brawlathon

53 prairiefire  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:01:44pm

re: #41 goddamnedfrank

Paranoid schizophrenia has no allies.

RE-quoted for emphasis!

54 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:04:05pm

re: #51 Varek Raith

Dark_Falcon of the Yard!

Varek Raith, Dark Lord of the Sith!

55 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:04:16pm

universal humanity…
Youtube Video

56 Stanley Sea  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:05:06pm

re: #43 SanFranciscoZionist

bichon frise

I was trying to think of that breed of dog! Wondering what type of dog will be brought to the Mosque protest - in Temecula - tomorrow.

static.gotpetsonline.com

57 allegro  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:07:50pm

re: #56 Stanley Sea

One hope the event doesn’t attract those who give pit bulls a bad name.

58 allegro  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:08:19pm

hopes too PIMF

59 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:09:02pm

re: #56 Stanley Sea

I was trying to think of that breed of dog! Wondering what type of dog will be brought to the Mosque protest - in Temecula - tomorrow.

[Link: static.gotpetsonline.com…]

My grandmother had a bichon, named Mignon. They’re great little animals. Bred to be circus dogs, so they work well with people and are very bright.

60 allegro  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:09:50pm

Wow, I just learned that a tomatilla is a member of the gooseberry family, not the tomato family. I love Iron Chef.

61 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:10:09pm

Good Evening Lizards!
Long long day at work..
Hope you are all well

62 Stanley Sea  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:10:24pm

re: #59 SanFranciscoZionist

My grandmother had a bichon, named Mignon. They’re great little animals. Bred to be circus dogs, so they work well with people and are very bright.

I so picture them as circus dogs! I just know they bark and bark and bark!

63 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:11:07pm

Inspector -

Good. Now I’m arrestin’ this entire show on three counts: one, acts of self-conscious behaviour contrary to the ‘Not in front of the children’ Act, two, always saying ‘It’s so and so of the Yard’ every time the fuzz arrives and, three, and this is the cruncher, offenses against the ‘Getting out of sketches without using a proper punchline’ Act, four, namely, simply ending every bleedin’ sketch by just having a policeman come in and… wait a minute.
64 joest73  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:11:28pm

Anyone watch Hardball tonight? Someone forgot to tell Chris Matthews that talking points of the week were to blame everything on FOX News and Breitbart.

eyeblast.tv

Good to see the old Chris Matthews back for a few moments.

65 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:12:41pm

re: #60 allegro

Wow, I just learned that a tomatilla is a member of the gooseberry family, not the tomato family. I love Iron Chef.

They are also very easy to grow and are are one of the most prolific plants in the garden. I use them in everything; soups, stews and they work awesome in curries.

66 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:13:54pm

re: #64 joest73

Anyone watch Hardball tonight? Someone forgot to tell Chris Matthews that talking points of the week were to blame everything on FOX News and Breitbart.

[Link: www.eyeblast.tv…]

Good to see the old Chris Matthews back for a few moments.

Image: whats-the-point.jpg

67 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:14:19pm

re: #61 HoosierHoops

Good Evening Lizards!
Long long day at work..
Hope you are all well

I’m good. Got another sale at work today, so I’ll get paid for at least 5 of them. A 6th will likely pay tomorrow, and if that happens, my commission goes up from 10% to 15%, which would put an extra $360 in my pocket. And no matter what, I’ve had a very good first full month.

68 allegro  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:14:52pm

re: #65 Killgore Trout

They are also very easy to grow and are are one of the most prolific plants in the garden. I use them in everything; soups, stews and they work awesome in curries.

I’ve never grown them but do love their tangy flavor in sauces. The best is Mama Ninfa’s famous green sauce that I finally got the recipe for. I always thought the suckers were green tomatoes though.

69 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:17:50pm

re: #67 Dark_Falcon

I’m good. Got another sale at work today, so I’ll get paid for at least 5 of them. A 6th will likely pay tomorrow, and if that happens, my commission goes up from 10% to 15%, which would put an extra $360 in my pocket. And no matter what, I’ve had a very good first full month.

That is great news..I’m glad things are going so well for you…

70 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:18:09pm

re: #64 joest73

Anyone watch Hardball tonight? Someone forgot to tell Chris Matthews that talking points of the week were to blame everything on FOX News and Breitbart.

[Link: www.eyeblast.tv…]

Good to see the old Chris Matthews back for a few moments.

He’s being properly skeptical in my opinion. I think that Breitbart was being malicious, but proving it will be hard. Suing a journalist over a news story (and yes, in the eyes of the law that is what Shirley Sherrod is doing) is extremely difficult in the US. Sherrod may win, but the deck is stacked in Breitbart’s favor.

71 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:18:17pm

does anyone dig music here?…check this out
Youtube Video

72 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:20:11pm

Harlan Ellison once mailed a dead gopher to a publisher. In summertime, by fourth-class mail.

Anyone got Rupert Murdoch’s address?

73 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:21:29pm

re: #70 Dark_Falcon

He’s being properly skeptical in my opinion. I think that Breitbart was being malicious, but proving it will be hard. Suing a journalist over a news story (and yes, in the eyes of the law that is what Shirley Sherrod is doing) is extremely difficult in the US. Sherrod may win, but the deck is stacked in Breitbart’s favor.

It might not be that difficult. I think the key is who gave the tape to Breitbart. It wasn’t just downloaded off the web somewhere, it came from the company that was hired to film the event. I don’t think it will take much for them to figure out who requested the tape from them. It was probably Breitbart or one of his employees and I doubt they were very clever in trying to hide their identity.

74 Irenicum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:21:36pm

re: #71 albusteve

Excellent video Steve. I’m definitely posting it to my FB page.

75 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:22:39pm

re: #73 Killgore Trout

But she still has to prove malice, while Bratfart will claim he was just doing “news” and “commentary”.

76 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:23:32pm

re: #71 albusteve

does anyone dig music here?…check this out

[Video]

Wow! Just Wow! I give that a 10 out 10…
Thanks Steve-o

77 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:25:36pm

re: #75 freetoken

But she still has to prove malice, while Bratfart will claim he was just doing “news” and “commentary”.

That will be the easy part. Once it can be shown that he was aware of the whole tape and the nature of her statement it won’t be difficult to prove that he edited the tape with the intention of misrepresenting what she was saying.

78 joest73  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:25:37pm

re: #70 Dark_Falcon

He’s being properly skeptical in my opinion. I think that Breitbart was being malicious, but proving it will be hard. Suing a journalist over a news story (and yes, in the eyes of the law that is what Shirley Sherrod is doing) is extremely difficult in the US. Sherrod may win, but the deck is stacked in Breitbart’s favor.

I hope Matthews starts to get tough on everyone again. Who wants to watch another Olbermann, Maddow, or Hannity show filled with talking points from either side.

I also enjoyed watching Juan Williams fill in for Bill O’Reilly tonight.

79 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:25:47pm

re: #74 Irenicum

Excellent video Steve. I’m definitely posting it to my FB page.

Playing For Change
Youtube Video

80 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:27:02pm

re: #77 Killgore Trout

That will be the easy part. Once it can be shown that he was aware of the whole tape and the nature of her statement it won’t be difficult to prove that he edited the tape with the intention of misrepresenting what she was saying.

I don’t the Law..We should get lawhawk to weigh in on this

81 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:27:48pm

re: #80 HoosierHoops

I don’t Know the Law..We should get lawhawk to weigh in on this


PIMF.. Long day sorry

82 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:29:19pm

re: #77 Killgore Trout

That will be the easy part. Once it can be shown that he was aware of the whole tape and the nature of her statement it won’t be difficult to prove that he edited the tape with the intention of misrepresenting what she was saying.

Isn’t that the real problem, though? Can one distinguish that easily between malice and incompetence or commentary?

Doesn’t this get back to the problem of proving conspiracy (in the legal sense, not the paranoia of Alex Jones)?

83 Stanley Sea  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:30:17pm

Tea Party organizer talking about the planned protest at the Mosque tomorrow in Temecula:

“They hate Jews, they hate Chrisitans, they hate women, they hate dogs,” Serain said. “[The idea of the new mosque] scares the daylights out of me.”

Still, Serafin insisted she’s no bigot.

“I want you to stress this — I’m not prejudiced,” Serafin told me. “I worked retail for nine years and I didn’t even know my manager was gay until someone told me. And when I found out, I didn’t care.”

“They hate song,” she said of Muslims. “So we’re going to sing patriotic songs, Christian songs.”

“God Bless America will be one,” Serafin added.

No words.

tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com

84 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:32:31pm

Speaking of “conspiracies”:

EPA to Virginia: What Climate Conspiracy?

A group of critics of the Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA’s) decision to regulate greenhouse gases as a public health hazard were rebuffed today in an administrative move by the agency. From the EPA press release:

The petitions to reconsider EPA’s “Endangerment Finding” claimed that climate science can’t be trusted, and asserted a conspiracy that calls into question the findings of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, and the U.S. Global Change Research Program. After months of serious consideration of the petitions and of the state of climate change science, EPA found no evidence to support these claims.

The petitioners included the Commonwealth of Virginia. Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli said that EPA’s decision was “fatally flawed procedurally because the agency has reviewed and weighed new information without notice or comment from the public.” Cuccinelli is investigating former Pennsylvania State University scientist Michael Mann for possible impropriety after the “Climategate” e-mails were released last year; Mann has been exonerated by that school.

“The next step will be to appeal to the courts on what the agency has decided,” said Sheldon Gilbert, a spokesperson for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, another petitioner. The chamber is involved in a separate legal case in which it already asked a federal court to review the EPA move.

I suppose the VA AG will now claim there is a conspiracy to cover up the conspiracy!!

85 austin_blue  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:32:54pm

Hoisted on their own petard. That wasn’t a “breakdown”, it was a Tactical Nuclear Explosion.

Similar at NAACP, Ag and the White House, but they weren’t pushing the story, only reacting to Faux’s coverage. I’d call that “over reaction”. They still screwed up, but at this point, Faux News absolutely needs to “apologize”, but in much stronger terms.

They helped perpetrate a despicable fraud. They also need to announce that they will not report any Breitbart stories until they have been thoroughly researched.

86 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:34:39pm

re: #43 SanFranciscoZionist

bichon frise

Annoying little yappers. Never seem to crap well on the newspapers either.

87 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:35:02pm

No More Trouble
way cool

Youtube Video

really, I promise

88 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:36:20pm

re: #83 Stanley Sea

Tea Party organizer talking about the planned protest at the Mosque tomorrow in Temecula:

No words.

[Link: tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com…]

You know, I’m not a fan of patriotic songs either. Yeah, I’m a sekrit Muslim too.

89 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:36:40pm

re: #82 freetoken

Isn’t that the real problem, though? Can one distinguish that easily between malice and incompetence or commentary?

Doesn’t this get back to the problem of proving conspiracy (in the legal sense, not the paranoia of Alex Jones)?

That’s why I said the deck is stacked in Breitbart’s favor. Journalists in the US get very broad latitude to present their stories, a state of affairs that results from their 1st Amendment protections. The burden of proof is entirely on Sherrod, and judges are fairly leery of the kind of suit she is filing. If any notable ambiguity is found in the matter, Breitbart will win.

90 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:37:36pm

re: #87 albusteve

No More Trouble
way cool


[Video]really, I promise

I now have ‘one love’ in my head and can’t get it out…Dang you Steve!
/

91 austin_blue  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:37:50pm

re: #84 freetoken

Speaking of “conspiracies”:

EPA to Virginia: What Climate Conspiracy?

I suppose the VA AG will now claim there is a conspiracy to cover up the conspiracy!!

Well blogged! At some point, these politicians will become irrelevant as they are voted out for being ignorant (politically opportunistic), science-hating (politically opportunistic) hacks.

92 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:39:09pm

re: #85 austin_blue

Hoisted on their own petard. That wasn’t a “breakdown”, it was a Tactical Nuclear Explosion.

Similar at NAACP, Ag and the White House, but they weren’t pushing the story, only reacting to Faux’s coverage. I’d call that “over reaction”. They still screwed up, but at this point, Faux News absolutely needs to “apologize”, but in much stronger terms.

They helped perpetrate a despicable fraud. They also need to announce that they will not report any Breitbart stories until they have been thoroughly researched.

Tactical Nuclear Explosion: A nuclear explosion that occurs 50 miles down-wind of you.

93 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:41:38pm

re: #88 eclectic infidel

You know, I’m not a fan of patriotic songs either. Yeah, I’m a sekrit Muslim too.

Everyone here is either a “Seekrit Muslim”, “Radical Progressive”, or “Totalitarian Fascist”: didn’t you get the memo?

/must I?

94 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:43:38pm

where is all the killer music?
on the streets
buskers
pay them
Blues across America

Youtube Video

95 Stanley Sea  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:43:46pm

re: #87 albusteve

No More Trouble
way cool


[Video]

really, I promise

OK, I got chills from that one. Wow - Playing for a Change.

96 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:45:09pm

OK, Back from Gino’s… too stuffed to argue. I will agree to anything now…

97 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:46:21pm

re: #96 brookly red

OK, Back from Gino’s… too stuffed to argue. I will agree to anything now…

What was for dinner?

98 austin_blue  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:46:32pm

re: #94 albusteve

where is all the killer music?
on the streets
buskers
pay them
Blues across America


[Video]

Youtube Video

99 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:48:42pm

re: #48 Dark_Falcon

No insults, please. Spare didn’t insult anyone, so please critique his point without the cattiness.

Very well if you insist DF.

Spare I feel that you were bringing an uneeded, and pointless Tu Quoque by bringing up how MSN isn’t perfect while Fox is helping get a good honest woman fired and advancing the arguments of a scum bag like Andrew Breitbart.

I would appreciate it if you stuck to the topic at hand, rather than trying to say that liberals are just as bad as conservatives on every issue under the sun.

100 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:49:12pm

re: #99 jamesfirecat

Very well if you insist DF.

Spare I feel that you were bringing an uneeded, and pointless Tu Quoque by bringing up how MSN isn’t perfect while Fox is helping get a good honest woman fired and advancing the arguments of a scum bag like Andrew Breitbart.

I would appreciate it if you stuck to the topic at hand, rather than trying to say that liberals are just as bad as conservatives on every issue under the sun.

Thank you, James.

101 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:50:30pm

re: #99 jamesfirecat

Very well if you insist DF.

Spare I feel that you were bringing an uneeded, and pointless Tu Quoque by bringing up how MSN isn’t perfect while Fox is helping get a good honest woman fired and advancing the arguments of a scum bag like Andrew Breitbart.

I would appreciate it if you stuck to the topic at hand, rather than trying to say that liberals are just as bad as conservatives on every issue under the sun.

I bet you do…news flash: liberals are fair game
the topic is whatever the comenters say it is

102 AlexRogan  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:50:35pm

re: #89 Dark_Falcon

That’s why I said the deck is stacked in Breitbart’s favor. Journalists in the US get very broad latitude to present their stories, a state of affairs that results from their 1st Amendment protections. The burden of proof is entirely on Sherrod, and judges are fairly leery of the kind of suit she is filing. If any notable ambiguity is found in the matter, Breitbart will win.

As much as I’d like Sherrod to win a lawsuit against that reprehensible toad Breitbart, she’ll most likely lose, because the burden of proof is all on her.

The bastard’s probably laughing his ass off…

103 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:51:17pm

re: #97 HoosierHoops

What was for dinner?

fried calamari & salad to start. I had eggplant parm w/linguine, she can never eat anything on the menu so it was a kinda hybrid of chicken piccata & salad & broccoli rabe. Urp.

104 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:51:46pm

re: #96 brookly red

OK, Back from Gino’s… too stuffed to argue. I will agree to anything now…

i miss NYC. my wife took me to an “italian” restaurant here in the bay area the other night, and the menu items all looked to me like “aesthetic european vegetables in pretentious gelee seasoned with esoteric and unfamiliar herbs, $40.00”

105 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:54:31pm

re: #104 engineer dog

i miss NYC. my wife took me to an “italian” restaurant here in the bay area the other night, and the menu items all looked to me like “aesthetic european vegetables in pretentious gelee seasoned with esoteric and unfamiliar herbs, $40.00”

local dives are the best… the whole above meal was 40$

106 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:54:44pm

re: #104 engineer dog

i miss NYC. my wife took me to an “italian” restaurant here in the bay area the other night, and the menu items all looked to me like “aesthetic european vegetables in pretentious gelee seasoned with esoteric and unfamiliar herbs, $40.00”

I like the fish at Charlie Brown’s in Berkley

107 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:54:53pm

re: #100 Dark_Falcon

Thank you, James.

No problem.

By the way one more tricky thing for you to think about for the Tomb of the Political Gods adventure…

Kerry wasn’t married until 1970 at which point he’d been sent home from the Vietnam war…

Thus it really doesn’t make sense for a monster version of him summoned by the spirit of 68 to talk about his wife’s money, he’d be talking about his fiance’s money instead….

Or am I just overthinking this…

108 justaminute  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:55:02pm

re: #83 Stanley Sea

That’s so funny. I’ll tell my Muslim husband when he get’s back from walking HIS dogs. Usually with an Ipod listening to Iranian music. I wish we lived close so we could show up at her demo.

109 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:57:04pm

re: #102 talon_262

As much as I’d like Sherrod to win a lawsuit against that reprehensible toad Breitbart, she’ll most likely lose, because the burden of proof is all on her.

The bastard’s probably laughing his ass off…

you gotta know anyone in the game don’t do squat till their lawyers say it’s cool…

110 prairiefire  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:57:48pm

re: #107 jamesfirecat

His first wife was not the Hein$ one, she was the blonde.

111 Irenicum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:57:53pm

re: #105 brookly red

So true. There’s nothing better than New York Italian food.

112 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:58:15pm

liberal govts have wrecked the economies of several key states, including CA, IL, MI, NY, NJ etc…a liberal POTUS and congress has pushed us to the edge of national disaster with their fiscal irresponsibility…don’t sit there and pretend doofi….facts don’t lie

113 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:58:39pm

re: #106 HoosierHoops

I like the fish at Charlie Brown’s in Berkley

actually, my very favorite bay area restaurant is tadich’s grill in downtown sf. also, speisekammer in alameda is great!

i also put up with venus on shattuck since the food is down to earth even if the prices are a bit high

114 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:58:53pm

re: #104 engineer dog

i miss NYC. my wife took me to an “italian” restaurant here in the bay area the other night, and the menu items all looked to me like “aesthetic european vegetables in pretentious gelee seasoned with esoteric and unfamiliar herbs, $40.00”

Let me know next time you’re in the Bay Area. I am a resident here and I’m Italian. I know where the quality restaurants are. Seriously. I would’ve sent you two to Spiazzo Cafe over on West Portal Ave, Italian owned and operated, big portions with authentic cooking (you can hear the Italian chefs swearing at one another in the background sometimes). Or there’s the Gold Mirror on Taraval Ave near 19th St in the Parkside district. Waitstaff are all dolled up, women have the big hair and call you ‘honey’ and it’s all traditional with quality portions.

115 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:59:01pm

re: #111 Irenicum

So true. There’s nothing better than New York Italian food.

I am trapped… I can never leave.

116 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:59:27pm

Here’s a very relevant story:

On WikiLeaks scandal, hacker says he didn’t want to be a ‘coward’

(CNN) — A California hacker said he doesn’t regret going to federal officials to show them alleged confessions an Army private made about leaking more than 90,000 documents that reveal secret information about U.S. war strategy.

Adrian Lamo spoke to CNN from the Sacramento Public Library, where he was trying to get away from reporters and a throng of people who, he said, are angry with him. He says he has received death threats in person and on his Facebook page and Twitter messages from people who feel like he betrayed Pfc. Bradley Manning.

“I went to the right authorities, because it seemed incomprehensible that someone could leak that massive amount of data and not have it endanger human life,” Lamo said. “If I had acted for my own comfort and convenience and sat on my hands with that information, and I had endangered national security … I would have been the worst kind of coward.”

Manning, a 22-year-old intelligence analyst based near Baghdad, Iraq, had top-secret security clearance to sensitive information about the war, officials have said. The U.S. military is holding Manning in a Kuwait jail, suspected in the leak of a helicopter gunship attack video from Iraq.

Military investigators also suspect he accessed a military classified internet and e-mail system to download tens of thousands of documents, according to a Pentagon official who did not want to be identified because of the ongoing criminal investigation of the soldier. The whistle-blower website WikiLeaks.org posted more than 75,000 secret military documents on Sunday.

Daniel Ellsburg got away with leaking the Pentagon Papers, but Pfc Manning is going to prison. I hope he gets life.

117 Stanley Sea  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:59:40pm

re: #113 engineer dog

actually, my very favorite bay area restaurant is tadich’s grill in downtown sf. also, speisekammer in alameda is great!

i also put up with venus on shattuck since the food is down to earth even if the prices are a bit high

I’ve been to Tadich’s!! What a great place & great time we had.

118 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:00:06pm

re: #110 prairiefire

His first wife was not the Hein$ one, she was the blonde.

Oh… wait…

THEN IT MAKES EVEN LESS SENSE FOR HIM TO BE TALKING ABOUT HOW RICH HIS WIFE WAS IF HE DIDN’T MARRY THAT WOMAN TILL 1995!

Image: scanners-headexplode.jpg

119 Irenicum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:00:16pm

re: #115 brookly red

Thankfully the north side of Boston is pretty heavily Italian, or else I think I’d die of hunger.

120 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:00:27pm

re: #113 engineer dog

actually, my very favorite bay area restaurant is tadich’s grill in downtown sf. also, speisekammer in alameda is great!

i also put up with venus on shattuck since the food is down to earth even if the prices are a bit high

I was TDY in Alameda for a year…I love that town…Lived on Bay farm Island

121 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:01:32pm

re: #99 jamesfirecat

Very well if you insist DF.

Spare I feel that you were bringing an uneeded, and pointless Tu Quoque by bringing up how MSN isn’t perfect while Fox is helping get a good honest woman fired and advancing the arguments of a scum bag like Andrew Breitbart.

I would appreciate it if you stuck to the topic at hand, rather than trying to say that liberals are just as bad as conservatives on every issue under the sun.

I never said libs were just as bad as conservatives…they are of course far worse.
What I was commenting on was a trend to focus most criticism of the MSM these days on FOX, whereas in the past the criticism was spread around in a much more balanced way.

122 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:01:34pm

re: #114 eclectic infidel

Let me know next time you’re in the Bay Area. I am a resident here and I’m Italian. I know where the quality restaurants are. Seriously. I would’ve sent you two to Spiazzo Cafe over on West Portal Ave, Italian owned and operated, big portions with authentic cooking (you can hear the Italian chefs swearing at one another in the background sometimes). Or there’s the Gold Mirror on Taraval Ave near 19th St in the Parkside district. Waitstaff are all dolled up, women have the big hair and call you ‘honey’ and it’s all traditional with quality portions.

ah, cool. actually, we live in the bay area

but talking about italian restaurants reminds me of the fabulous manero’s in greenwich, conn - anybody else familiar with it?

i think the first time i went there was in 1959…

123 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:01:37pm

re: #119 Irenicum

Thankfully the north side of Boston is pretty heavily Italian, or else I think I’d die of hunger.

there is a place like 2 blocks from north station that I was impressed by… can’t recall the name.

124 prairiefire  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:01:47pm

re: #113 engineer dog

actually, my very favorite bay area restaurant is tadich’s grill in downtown sf. also, speisekammer in alameda is great!

i also put up with venus on shattuck since the food is down to earth even if the prices are a bit high

Hey, my hubby is going to Oracle Open World this fall. What do you like at Tadich’s?

125 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:02:33pm

re: #107 jamesfirecat

No problem.

By the way one more tricky thing for you to think about for the Tomb of the Political Gods adventure…

Kerry wasn’t married until 1970 at which point he’d been sent home from the Vietnam war…

Thus it really doesn’t make sense for a monster version of him summoned by the spirit of 68 to talk about his wife’s money, he’d be talking about his fiance’s money instead…

Or am I just overthinking this…

You’re overthinking it. The Backstabbing Backbencher is all that I despise about John Kerry. I was hard on Kerry, because I really do think of him as a backstabber.

126 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:04:09pm

re: #121 Spare O’Lake

I never said libs were just as bad as conservatives…they are of course far worse.
What I was commenting on was a trend to focus most criticism of the MSM these days on FOX, whereas in the past the criticism was spread around in a much more balanced way.

there is no balance here

127 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:04:14pm

re: #83 Stanley Sea


“They hate Jews, they hate Chrisitans, they hate women, they hate dogs,” Serain said. “[The idea of the new mosque] scares the daylights out of me.”

Still, Serafin insisted she’s no bigot.

“I want you to stress this — I’m not prejudiced,” Serafin told me. “I worked retail for nine years and I didn’t even know my manager was gay until someone told me. And when I found out, I didn’t care.”

“They hate song,” she said of Muslims. “So we’re going to sing patriotic songs, Christian songs.”

“God Bless America will be one,” Serafin added.

No words.

Gee, I guess this means now I’m going to have to:

1) Get rid of my iPod and start screaming & cursing next time I hear God Bless America or The Star-Spangled Banner

2) Stop liking SFZ, Obdi, Bob, and all my RL Jewish friends

3) Take that Maimonides book out of my Amazon shopping cart

4) Stop liking Cato, Reine, Irenicum, Ace, and all my RL Christian friends & relatives

5) Kick every dog I come across

6) Figure out how, as a woman, I can manage to function while hating myself; I guess I should also inform my ex-husband and all the other Muslim men I know that it’s compulsory that they hate me as well

I’ll bet we hate Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the tooth fairy too. And kittens. And… I hope these people don’t make up any more new rules, because I don’t know if I can fit all that hating into 24 short hours. /

128 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:04:39pm

re: #124 prairiefire

Hey, my hubby is going to Oracle Open World this fall. What do you like at Tadich’s?

i usually get the filet of sole, in the traditional style (whose name i can’t remember), just sauteed very plain and ready for some lemon

mmmm

129 austin_blue  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:04:44pm

re: #116 Dark_Falcon

Here’s a very relevant story:

On WikiLeaks scandal, hacker says he didn’t want to be a ‘coward’

Daniel Ellsburg got away with leaking the Pentagon Papers, but Pfc Manning is going to prison. I hope he gets life.

I guess we disagree on the value of the truth. Sorry.

Do I agree that the info should not have been released? Yes. Is it treason? No. Will it affect our ability to prosecute the war against Al Queda and the Taliban? No. Might it push Pakistan to crank down on the ISI? I certainly hope so.

The Pakistani ISI is the prime villain in the release of this info. They need to be taken down several pegs.

130 prairiefire  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:05:22pm

re: #116 Dark_Falcon

Talk about a fresh faced looking kid, geez.

131 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:05:55pm

re: #127 CuriousLurker

Gee, I guess this means now I’m going to have to:

1) Get rid of my iPod and start screaming & cursing next time I hear God Bless America or The Star-Spangled Banner

2) Stop liking SFZ, Obdi, Bob, and all my RL Jewish friends

3) Take that Maimonides book out of my Amazon shopping cart

4) Stop liking Cato, Reine, Irenicum, Ace, and all my RL Christian friends & relatives

5) Kick every dog I come across

6) Figure out how, as a woman, I can manage to function while hating myself; I guess I should also inform my ex-husband and all the other Muslim men I know that it’s compulsory that they hate me as well

I’ll bet we hate Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the tooth fairy too. And kittens. And… I hope these people don’t make up any more new rules, because I don’t know if I can fit all that hating into 24 short hours. /

no dog kicking…

132 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:06:39pm

re: #112 albusteve

liberal govts have wrecked the economies of several key states, including CA, IL, MI, NY, NJ etc…a liberal POTUS and congress has pushed us to the edge of national disaster with their fiscal irresponsibility…don’t sit there and pretend doofi…facts don’t lie

That’s because all the federal money goes to the red states.

133 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:06:44pm

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

You’re overthinking it. The Backstabbing Backbencher is all that I despise about John Kerry. I was hard on Kerry, because I really do think of him as a backstabber.

Kerry should be in prison…yet he’s a senior donk senator…as for Kennedy, he should have gone to prison as well…two of the worst sort of human beings and both an embarrassment to our country…leaders?
I hate the feds

134 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:07:39pm

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

You’re overthinking it. The Backstabbing Backbencher is all that I despise about John Kerry. I was hard on Kerry, because I really do think of him as a backstabber.

Okay then, I didn’t live through the 60’s/70’s so I have no right to judge how horrible/praiseworthy Kerry’s behavior during that time period was.

135 austin_blue  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:08:41pm

re: #133 albusteve

Kerry should be in prison…yet he’s a senior donk senator…as for Kennedy, he should have gone to prison as well…two of the worst sort of human beings and both an embarrassment to our country…leaders?
I hate the feds

His crime? Telling the truth? On Kennedy, you’ve got a leg to stand on. But not Kerry.

136 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:08:43pm

re: #134 jamesfirecat

Okay then, I didn’t live through the 60’s/70’s so I have no right to judge how horrible/praiseworthy Kerry’s behavior during that time period was.

I did

137 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:09:33pm

re: #135 austin_blue

His crime? Telling the truth? On Kennedy, you’ve got a leg to stand on. But not Kerry.

I could say that people that cover for Kerry are just as bad as he is…but I won’t

138 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:09:38pm

re: #132 tnguitarist

That’s because all the federal money goes to the red states.

That’s from 2004. Red States are also the biggest beneficiaries of socialisticy fascist totalitarian stimulus money too.

139 austin_blue  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:10:24pm

re: #137 albusteve

I could say that people that cover for Kerry are just as bad as he is…but I won’t

Because that would be rock dumb. Smart move>

140 jaunte  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:10:40pm

re: #134 jamesfirecat

It wasn’t praiseworthy.

141 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:10:58pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

That’s from 2004. Red States are also the biggest beneficiaries of socialisticy fascist totalitarian stimulus money too.

It hasn’t changed.

142 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:11:38pm

re: #137 albusteve

I could say that people that cover for Kerry are just as bad as he is…but I won’t

What did Kerry do that he should be in prison for? Did I miss something?

143 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:11:40pm

re: #131 brookly red

no dog kicking…

Okay, maybe I’ll just look at ‘em all mean & scary.

Why can’t they say we hate pineapple on pizza?

144 TampaKnight  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:11:43pm

Hey all!

145 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:12:15pm

re: #141 tnguitarist

It hasn’t changed.

lol@wingnuts and their stupid tea parties.

146 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:12:35pm

re: #142 tnguitarist

What did Kerry do that he should be in prison for? Did I miss something?

yes…google it

147 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:12:47pm

re: #143 CuriousLurker

Okay, maybe I’ll just look at ‘em all mean & scary.

Why can’t they say we hate pineapple on pizza?

cause dogs can’t talk?

148 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:12:53pm

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

You’re overthinking it. The Backstabbing Backbencher is all that I despise about John Kerry. I was hard on Kerry, because I really do think of him as a backstabber.

“You know, this war is so fucking illegal.”

-Pat Tillman, Kerryesque “backstabber,” on the invasion of Iraq.

149 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:13:01pm

re: #144 TampaKnight

Hey all!

Hi There!

150 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:13:27pm

re: #146 albusteve

yes…google it

Google what?

151 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:13:30pm

re: #145 Killgore Trout

lol@wingnuts and their stupid tea parties.

so CA demise is the fault of the feds?
hahaha!

152 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:14:01pm

re: #150 tnguitarist

Google what?

try john kerry traitor

153 austin_blue  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:14:09pm

re: #142 tnguitarist

What did Kerry do that he should be in prison for? Did I miss something?

You missed Tax Free Killer.

He was entertaining, in a bizarre kind of way. Think of Gabby Johnson in “Blazing Saddles”.

154 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:14:58pm

re: #147 brookly red

cause dogs can’t talk?

Heh, yeah, that’s probably it.

I hate you. /

155 justaminute  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:15:27pm

re: #143 CuriousLurker

My husband hates pineapple on pizza. Maybe you guys should get a t-shirt made or something.

156 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:15:55pm

re: #148 goddamnedfrank

“You know, this war is so fucking illegal.”

-Pat Tillman, Kerryesque “backstabber,” on the invasion of Iraq.

link?

157 TampaKnight  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:16:10pm

I’m 25 and I have friends watching Jersey Shore. What is going on in America?

158 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:16:43pm

re: #153 austin_blue

You missed Tax Free Killer.

He was entertaining, in a bizarre kind of way. Think of Gabby Johnson in “Blazing Saddles”.

Really? I though if John Kerry would be anyone he’d be the old guy leading the church meetings.

“I urge you all to pay head to this good book and what it has to say!” (Bible is shot full of holes) “Son, you’re on your own.”

Because John Kerry is at his funniest when he’s an oldish guy as pulling of the “I just drone on and on never letting anyone get a word in edgewise until I start foaming at the mouth and falling over backwards!” Routine.

159 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:16:44pm

re: #153 austin_blue

You missed Tax Free Killer.

He was entertaining, in a bizarre kind of way. Think of Gabby Johnson in “Blazing Saddles”.

I always miss the real fun.

160 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:16:50pm

re: #155 justaminute

My husband hates pineapple on pizza. Maybe you guys should get a t-shirt made or something.

Pineapple on pizza is only good with canadian bacon, any other use is against all that is holy.

161 Irenicum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:17:27pm

re: #157 TampaKnight

Does the phrase “hell in a hand basket” ring a bell?

162 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:18:10pm

re: #157 TampaKnight

I’m 25 and I have friends watching Jersey Shore. What is going on in America?

well start with 25 year olds have noting more productive to do than watch TV…

163 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:18:33pm

re: #155 justaminute

My husband hates pineapple on pizza. Maybe you guys should get a t-shirt made or something.

LOL, sounds good to me.

164 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:18:54pm

re: #160 PT Barnum

Pineapple on pizza is only good with canadian bacon, any other use is against all that is holy.

I have a Veggie pizza with extra Pineapples being delivered to my hotel any minute…

165 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:19:21pm

re: #152 albusteve

try john kerry traitor

I see wingnut sites foaming at the mouth about things he did. I see no proof. If he was a traitor, why wasn’t he prosecuted?

166 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:20:51pm

re: #156 albusteve

link?

Pat Tillman: This war is so fucking illegal

167 austin_blue  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:22:03pm

re: #158 jamesfirecat

Really? I though if John Kerry would be anyone he’d be the old guy leading the church meetings.

“I urge you all to pay head to this good book and what it has to say!” (Bible is shot full of holes) “Son, you’re on your own.”

Because John Kerry is at his funniest when he’s an oldish guy as pulling of the “I just drone on and on never letting anyone get a word in edgewise until I start foaming at the mouth and falling over backwards!” Routine.

Naw, TFK believed that all of John Fucking Kerry’s medals were illegitimate and that he was a Seekrit Commie who was trying to convert Amerika to Socialism.

Thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster that that meme has gone from American political discourse.

168 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:22:03pm

re: #160 PT Barnum

Pineapple on pizza is only good with canadian bacon, any other use is against all that is holy.

Try the pineapple and cubed ham, for that authentic hawaiian touch.
*blech*

169 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:22:11pm

re: #160 PT Barnum

Pineapple on pizza is only good with canadian bacon, any other use is against all that is holy.

re: #164 HoosierHoops

I have a Veggie pizza with extra Pineapples being delivered to my hotel any minute…

I recently applied for a position in hell tormenting the souls of those who put pineapple on pizza… I have a 2nd interview coming up this week. The boss liked my resume, I think I got a good chance.

170 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:22:32pm

re: #153 austin_blue

You missed Tax Free Killer.

He was entertaining, in a bizarre kind of way. Think of Gabby Johnson in “Blazing Saddles”.

Kerry shamelessly lied about America’s soldiers in Vietnam and he told his lie to a Senate Committee no less. He also participated in the libelous “Winter Soldier Investigation”. He was, and remains a piece of shit.

171 Irenicum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:22:54pm

Well I’m glad I know what’s truly important. The top of the New York Times website has the earth shattering breaking news that will truly change the course of history: Ellen is leaving idol.

Our culture is so screwed.

172 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:22:59pm

re: #165 tnguitarist

I see wingnut sites foaming at the mouth about things he did. I see no proof. If he was a traitor, why wasn’t he prosecuted?

disregard a certain amount of hyperbole…he wasn’t prosecuted because the anti war environment was red hot…J Fonda was fucking the NVA too and she skated…the laws are meaningless until enforced and the feds are notorious for laying down

173 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:24:26pm

re: #143 CuriousLurker

Okay, maybe I’ll just look at ‘em all mean & scary.

Why can’t they say we hate pineapple on pizza?

OMG. Bacon hot sauce is dee-licious on ham and pineapple pizza.

174 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:24:35pm

re: #127 CuriousLurker

Gee, I guess this means now I’m going to have to:

1) Get rid of my iPod and start screaming & cursing next time I hear God Bless America or The Star-Spangled Banner

2) Stop liking SFZ, Obdi, Bob, and all my RL Jewish friends

3) Take that Maimonides book out of my Amazon shopping cart

4) Stop liking Cato, Reine, Irenicum, Ace, and all my RL Christian friends & relatives

5) Kick every dog I come across

6) Figure out how, as a woman, I can manage to function while hating myself; I guess I should also inform my ex-husband and all the other Muslim men I know that it’s compulsory that they hate me as well

I’ll bet we hate Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the tooth fairy too. And kittens. And… I hope these people don’t make up any more new rules, because I don’t know if I can fit all that hating into 24 short hours. /

She goes on to say:

Here’s what’s really behind the Temecula mosque according to Serafin: America-hating imams are planning to build mosques “in every Christian city” so they can influence local politics, undermine our legal system and impose Sharia law on us all.

“In every Christian city”? So why are they trying to build one in New York?

175 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:25:04pm

re: #173 eclectic infidel

OMG. Bacon hot sauce is dee-licious on ham and pineapple pizza.

I am making a list…

176 albusteve  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:25:21pm

re: #166 PT Barnum

Pat Tillman: This war is so fucking illegal

that’s not proof, that’s a story
second hand

177 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:25:25pm

re: #174 Cato the Elder

“In every Christian city”? So why are they trying to build one in New York?

How does she stay standing on that slippery a slope?

178 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:25:28pm

re: #173 eclectic infidel

OMG. Bacon hot sauce is dee-licious on ham and pineapple pizza.

Ack! I mean canadian bacon and pineapple. Okay. I need to make myself supper now.

179 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:25:56pm

Evening Honcos.
I’m only here to “drop” a child so I can stay./
And pineapple has no place on pizza.:)

180 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:26:43pm

re: #176 albusteve

that’s not proof, that’s a story
second hand

That’s rich.

181 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:26:56pm

re: #174 Cato the Elder

“In every Christian city”? So why are they trying to build one in New York?

Whew! So San Francisco is safe…(you know, sodomy by the Bay…)
/

182 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:27:47pm

re: #181 eclectic infidel

Whew! So San Francisco is safe…(you know, sodomy by the Bay…)
/

Watch the innuendo…

Rectum? I almost killed ?im.

183 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:28:04pm

re: #174 Cato the Elder

She also says:

“They feel there’s religious freedom,” she said. “And I know it’s there in the Constitution and everything, but everything I read says Islam is a political movement.”


I guess that is the talking point of the hour.

184 Irenicum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:28:20pm

re: #183 freetoken

Nice analysis.

185 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:28:34pm

NatGeo is running a special on what would happen if the earth stopped spinning. Answer: We’d be fucked.

186 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:28:45pm

re: #179 Cannadian Club Akbar

Evening Honcos.
I’m only here to “drop” a child so I can stay./
And pineapple has no place on pizza.:)

Oohh. But, but, the mouthwatering combo of canadian bacon with the sweetness of the fruit combined with the bacon hot sauce is something worth trying.

On the flip side, I also like linguica, extra garlic and tomatoes and that definitely doesn’t require any bacon hot sauce. Nor pineapples.

Okay. BBL. Suppertime.

187 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:28:56pm

re: #173 eclectic infidel

OMG. Bacon hot sauce is dee-licious on ham and pineapple pizza.

That does it! I’m going to apply for a job as brookly’s assistant.

188 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:29:17pm

re: #184 Irenicum

The TPM story is just loaded with her ranting standard revanchism.

It’s just so much bull. All they’ve got is their fear and hate.

189 Irenicum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:29:25pm

re: #182 PT Barnum

Oops. Meant the “nice analysis” to be for this post. This thread moves too fast sometimes!

190 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:29:33pm

re: #187 CuriousLurker

That does it! I’m going to apply for a job as brookly’s assistant.

do you know powerpoint?

191 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:29:34pm

re: #183 freetoken

She also says:


I guess that is the talking point of the hour.

Apparently she gets all her knowledge of Islam from people like the Screeching Harpy and Robert Spencer.

192 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:29:46pm

Pizza requires pepperoni, jalapenos, and sausage.

193 jaunte  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:30:08pm

Just spilled some wine. Wiping up the keyboard, I look up to read this helpful Google advice:

Your search - bvz ,lmhjkty…..00.7410 2 - did not match any documents.

Suggestions:

* Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
* Try different keywords.
* Try more general keywords.
* Try fewer keywords.

194 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:30:39pm

re: #189 Irenicum

Oops. Meant the “nice analysis” to be for this post. This thread moves too fast sometimes!

oh hell…I probably offended someone again…sorry.

195 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:31:01pm

re: #193 jaunte

Just spilled some wine. Wiping up the keyboard, I look up to read this helpful Google advice:

bitboost.com

196 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:31:07pm

re: #193 jaunte

Just spilled some wine. Wiping up the keyboard, I look up to read this helpful Google advice:

Or, or, keep wine away from keyboard. Just sayin’.

197 austin_blue  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:31:10pm

re: #170 Dark_Falcon

Kerry shamelessly lied about America’s soldiers in Vietnam and he told his lie to a Senate Committee no less. He also participated in the libelous “Winter Soldier Investigation”. He was, and remains a piece of shit.

Completely disagree. Kerry was an American hero, rightly rewarded for his actions in combat, who fundamentally disagreed with government policy.

Question, DF. Do you believe in the right of an individual to petition the government for redress? That’s all Kerry did. He was granted that petition, and was lambasted by the Right for doing so.

So here’s the real question. Do you believe in that Constitutional Right?

Even if it’s an uncomfortable question? Because at the end of the day, the question was right on. Was Vietnam worth it?

I don’t think so. The north was always more committed than the South. They were never going to give up.

198 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:31:43pm

re: #188 freetoken

The TPM story is just loaded with her ranting standard revanchism.

It’s just so much bull. All they’ve got is their fear and hate.

Who is this person? I missed part of the story, and I must confess I don’t know to whom you are referring.

199 jaunte  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:31:45pm

re: #195 jamesfirecat

Sam the Orange writes half my posts.

200 Irenicum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:32:20pm

re: #194 PT Barnum

No apology needed. I was trying to insert a lame butt joke, and not too successfully! (read anal in analysis)
I need a drink.

201 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:32:36pm

re: #189 Irenicum

Oops. Meant the “nice analysis” to be for this post. This thread moves too fast sometimes!

I reported myself..that was an unfortunate case of the fingers typing before the brain engaged.

202 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:33:20pm

re: #200 Irenicum

No apology needed. I was trying to insert a lame butt joke, and not too successfully! (read anal in analysis)
I need a drink.

oh…geeze…me..not getting a pun…I’m going to slink off in shame now….

203 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:33:27pm

re: #200 Irenicum

No apology needed. I was trying to insert a lame butt joke, and not too successfully! (read anal in analysis)
I need a drink.

Just keep it away from Jaunte.
/

204 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:33:47pm

re: #192 Cannadian Club Akbar

Pizza requires pepperoni, jalapenos, and sausage.

Sounds good. I love jalapenos, but they no longer love back.

205 jaunte  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:34:13pm

re: #203 Cannadian Club Akbar

I have long elbows.

206 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:34:52pm

re: #205 jaunte

I have long elbows.

I have a TV tray.

207 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:34:57pm

re: #197 austin_blue

John Kerry was an anti-war activist and a liar. I only take issue with the second part.

208 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:35:01pm

re: #174 Cato the Elder

“In every Christian city”? So why are they trying to build one in New York?

Pffft. NYC isn’t even in Real America anyway, what with all those liberal elites living there and everything.

209 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:35:22pm

Harlan Ellison on smog in Los Angeles:

“The only smog I see is down there in the valley killing Republicans. I don’t give a shit about that.”

210 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:35:27pm

re: #170 Dark_Falcon

Kerry shamelessly lied about America’s soldiers in Vietnam and he told his lie to a Senate Committee no less. He also participated in the libelous “Winter Soldier Investigation”. He was, and remains a piece of shit.

He didn’t have specific enough information to prove that a massacre had occurred at Mai Lai, but that doesn’t mean he was wrong about the active horror going on in Viet Nam, in our name.

I suspect you can’t forgive him is because he was right, having been there and all.

I’m sorry, my first step-dad was marine force recon during this period, and the idea that Kerry is “a piece of shit” for trying to tell truth to power during one of the most insane debacles in US military history strikes me as ridiculous revisionism.

I brought up Pat Tillman before because he’s been a lot more convenient to the war effort dead than alive, which is why he’s considered a hero, and not a backstabber.

211 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:35:32pm

re: #200 Irenicum

No apology needed. I was trying to insert a lame butt joke, and not too successfully! (read anal in analysis)
I need a drink.

I want a beer but I am too full to even try…

212 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:36:13pm

re: #204 tnguitarist

Sounds good. I love jalapenos, but they no longer love back.

I used to eat jalapenos out of the can but can’t do that any more. About the only hot stuff I can eat is Kung Pao and Thai food (Pad Thai or Tom Yum) at about 3 out of 5 stars. Just enough to get the nose runs but not enough to need to sit on an ice cube later.

213 Pythagoras  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:36:36pm

re: #102 talon_262

As much as I’d like Sherrod to win a lawsuit against that reprehensible toad Breitbart, she’ll most likely lose, because the burden of proof is all on her.

The bastard’s probably laughing his ass off…

Lawsuits do not have a burden of proof — that’s for criminal trials. Lawsuits are decided on the preponderance of the evidence.

214 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:37:26pm

re: #190 brookly red

do you know powerpoint?

Sorta. I can practice.

215 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:37:27pm

re: #212 PT Barnum

If I ever get to the point where I can’t eat jalapenos, will you promise to smother me with a pillow?

216 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:37:42pm

re: #211 brookly red

I want a beer but I am too full to even try…

Bud light with Lime…great for a hot day when you don’t want a real beer but don’t want anything sweet either. I also highly recommend Rose’s Lime and tonic water.

217 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:38:23pm

re: #197 austin_blue

Completely disagree. Kerry was an American hero, rightly rewarded for his actions in combat, who fundamentally disagreed with government policy.

Question, DF. Do you believe in the right of an individual to petition the government for redress? That’s all Kerry did. He was granted that petition, and was lambasted by the Right for doing so.

So here’s the real question. Do you believe in that Constitutional Right?

Even if it’s an uncomfortable question? Because at the end of the day, the question was right on. Was Vietnam worth it?

I don’t think so. The north was always more committed than the South. They were never going to give up.

If all he had done what make the case that Vietnam wasn’t worth it, that would have been entirely within bounds. But he went far beyond that. He participated in a propaganda exercise masquerading as an “investigation” whose bogus allegations were subjected to an actual investigation by the NCIS and all but one of them were not found credible. And after he did that, he went before a panel of Senators and lied outrageously about the conduct of America’s armed forces. That makes him a piece of shit in my book.

218 austin_blue  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:38:51pm

re: #207 The Shadow Do

John Kerry was an anti-war activist and a liar. I only take issue with the second part.

If I had gone through what Kerry had gone through, I would have railed against the strategy used just like he did.

Dumb, dumb, dumb. It’s why we lost. My dad did two tours as a Marine pilot and he was just disgusted. He’s buried in Arlington.

219 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:39:03pm

re: #214 CuriousLurker

Sorta. I can practice.

OK, but tormenting souls is not as easy as it sounds…

220 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:39:10pm

re: #215 Cannadian Club Akbar

If I ever get to the point where I can’t eat jalapenos, will you promise to smother me with a pillow?

Sure, where do you live? I have a really nasty pillow my smaller dog has been sleeping on for quite a long time. The smell should kill you long before suffocation does.

221 justaminute  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:39:36pm

I bet that Serafin woman would be surprised we have 2 mosques in the OKC suburbs and schools for Muslims, and OU lets Iranians use their facilities to have Farsi classes for their children and spouses that do not speak Farsi. And one of the biggest hospitals in OKC has the building in big bold letters named after Dr. N. Zudi, a Muslim, who was one of the first surgeons in the area who did heart transplants. If fact, he was the one who paid for the building of a mosque.

222 austin_blue  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:40:02pm

re: #217 Dark_Falcon

If all he had done what make the case that Vietnam wasn’t worth it, that would have been entirely within bounds. But he went far beyond that. He participated in a propaganda exercise masquerading as an “investigation” whose bogus allegations were subjected to an actual investigation by the NCIS and all but one of them were not found credible. And after he did that, he went before a panel of Senators and lied outrageously about the conduct of America’s armed forces. That makes him a piece of shit in my book.

Ah, My Lai never happened.

223 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:40:03pm

re: #219 brookly red

OK, but tormenting souls is not as easy as it sounds…

Sitting through an hour long powerpoint is torturing souls. Make sure to use multiple fonts and colors with no graphics so it looks like a ransom note.

224 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:40:06pm

re: #212 PT Barnum

I used to eat jalapenos out of the can but can’t do that any more. About the only hot stuff I can eat is Kung Pao and Thai food (Pad Thai or Tom Yum) at about 3 out of 5 stars. Just enough to get the nose runs but not enough to need to sit on an ice cube later.

Funny how the body changes as we age. When I was younger, I could eat a habanero dipped in tabasco and set on fire. These days, I eat a jalapeno and why wife wonders why I’m crying in the bathroom.

225 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:40:12pm

re: #220 PT Barnum

Sure, where do you live? I have a really nasty pillow my smaller dog has been sleeping on for quite a long time. The smell should kill you long before suffocation does.

I was kinda hoping something from Martha Stewart with a silk case.
/

226 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:40:17pm

re: #215 Cannadian Club Akbar

If I ever get to the point where I can’t eat jalapenos, will you promise to smother me with a pillow?

why not just have the whole pie & go out in a blaze of glory?

227 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:40:41pm

WWE’s “World Heavyweight Champion” showed up on Napolitano’s show:

Youtube Video

Ahh… “Kane” is diehard libertarian and Paulian wants to reach “young people”.

Note what he says about the Federal Reserve.

Here is his website:
adventuresofcitizenx.com
full of all sorts of “libertarian” goodness, including links to Rockwell, Antiwar.com, etc.

It’s this guy’s boss (well, used to be boss but still married to the majority share holder) who’s running for Senator of Conn. Now, Linda herself doesn’t sound like a Rockwellian looney (that award goes to her competitor Schiff). Yet I can’t help but think this stuff by “Kane” won’t tinge WWE a bit, and by extension the McMahons.

228 austin_blue  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:40:45pm

I’m out. Adios.

229 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:41:53pm

re: #226 brookly red

why not just have the whole pie & go out in a blaze of glory?

Great. Now I’m thinking about a jalapeno and raspberry pie. Hmm. It can be done.

230 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:41:57pm

re: #223 PT Barnum

Sitting through an hour long powerpoint is torturing souls. Make sure to use multiple fonts and colors with no graphics so it looks like a ransom note.

an hour? what part of eternal damnation did you not understand?

231 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:42:03pm

re: #218 austin_blue

If I had gone through what Kerry had gone through, I would have railed against the strategy used just like he did.

Dumb, dumb, dumb. It’s why we lost. My dad did two tours as a Marine pilot and he was just disgusted. He’s buried in Arlington.

Like I said. None of it excuses his bullshit. To quote my Dad, silver star, bronze x2, DFC, “this is a bad war”.

Kerry is full of shit, that is all.

232 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:42:10pm

re: #224 tnguitarist

Funny how the body changes as we age. When I was younger, I could eat a habanero dipped in tabasco and set on fire. These days, I eat a jalapeno and why wife wonders why I’m crying in the bathroom.

Yeah…my body is no longer the willing recipient of anything I care to put in it.

233 joest73  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:42:13pm

re: #207 The Shadow Do

John Kerry was an anti-war activist and a liar. I only take issue with the second part.

And now he is a tea-sipping elitist…..

234 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:42:30pm

re: #219 brookly red

OK, but tormenting souls is not as easy as it sounds…

Dude, I’m Muslim. We’re evil incarnate. You need to pay more attention.

235 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:42:33pm

re: #221 justaminute

I bet that Serafin woman would be surprised we have 2 mosques in the OKC suburbs and schools for Muslims, and OU lets Iranians use their facilities to have Farsi classes for their children and spouses that do not speak Farsi. And one of the biggest hospitals in OKC has the building in big bold letters named after Dr. N. Zudi, a Muslim, who was one of the first surgeons in the area who did heart transplants. If fact, he was the one who paid for the building of a mosque.

Cool..I’m working in OK. right now..The OU Campus is nice…And the people seem very friendly

236 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:43:35pm

re: #233 joest73

And now he is a tea-sipping elitist…

Wine-sipping elitist.

Tea is the drink of the common man, hence Tea Party!

Haven’t you heard?

237 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:43:50pm

re: #229 Cannadian Club Akbar

Great. Now I’m thinking about a jalapeno and raspberry pie. Hmm. It can be done.

it makes a great jam… green apples & Brie with jalapeño raspberry jam.

238 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:43:54pm

re: #229 Cannadian Club Akbar

Great. Now I’m thinking about a jalapeno and raspberry pie. Hmm. It can be done.

Chipotle raspberry sauce yum! Bought some the other night. Goes great with cream cheese on crackers.

239 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:43:57pm

re: #222 austin_blue

Ah, My Lai never happened.

That’s not what I am saying. My Lai did happen, but it was the only such atrocity committed by American forces. John Kerry charged that US troops had made such conduct a matter of routine, which clearly was not the case. That is what makes him a liar and a dirtbag.

240 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:44:05pm

Lizards, this is the end of my week. And ya’ll making it fun. Thanks.

241 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:44:52pm

re: #222 austin_blue

Ah, My Lai never happened.

There are atrocities in every war. If you choose to allow My Lai to define the conflict for you then you have taken a very narrow view of what actually went on there. Does the Abu Ghrab fiasco define the service of all those who have done their duty in Iraq for you as well?

242 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:44:54pm

Kerry coming up always amazes me. You can hear the gnashing of teeth over the wires almost.

Gotta admit, Nixon did a really good job on him.

243 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:45:15pm

re: #237 brookly red

it makes a great jam… green apples & Brie with jalapeño raspberry jam.

re: #238 PT Barnum

Chipotle raspberry sauce yum! Bought some the other night. Goes great with cream cheese on crackers.

I make Chipolte sour cream.

244 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:45:17pm

re: #234 CuriousLurker

Dude, I’m Muslim. We’re evil incarnate. You need to pay more attention.

Muslim? oh sorry we have a quota system & your group is overly represented as it is…

245 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:45:18pm

anybody a musician? Any recommendations for a good beginner guitar? Not really pricy (since I’m not sure whether I’ll stick with it).

246 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:45:36pm

re: #236 jamesfirecat

But I thought tea was sipped by 85 year old British ladies!

… oh wait.

247 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:46:25pm

Harlan Ellison on anti-intellectualism in America and people who say, “But I’m entitled to my opinion”:

“No, schmuck, you are not entitled to your opinion. You’re entitled to your informed opinion. Without information, it’s just babble, hot air, and farts in the wind.”

LOL. He said Hot Air.

248 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:46:30pm

re: #245 PT Barnum

anybody a musician? Any recommendations for a good beginner guitar? Not really pricy (since I’m not sure whether I’ll stick with it).

zzounds.com

Bought a nephew a guitar here.

249 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:46:36pm

re: #244 brookly red

Muslim? oh sorry we have a quota system & your group is overly represented as it is…

Yes..the muslins need to be counter balanced by the linens.

250 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:46:55pm

re: #221 justaminute

I bet that Serafin woman would be surprised we have 2 mosques in the OKC suburbs and schools for Muslims, and OU lets Iranians use their facilities to have Farsi classes for their children and spouses that do not speak Farsi. And one of the biggest hospitals in OKC has the building in big bold letters named after Dr. N. Zudi, a Muslim, who was one of the first surgeons in the area who did heart transplants. If fact, he was the one who paid for the building of a mosque.

Okay, you’re not paying attention either. It’s a all a ruse to try to convince Real Americans that Muslims aren’t dangerous so they’ll let their guard down long enough for us to take over.

And BTW, you husband hates you. ///

251 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:48:29pm

re: #250 CuriousLurker

Okay, you’re not paying attention either. It’s a all a ruse to try to convince Real Americans that Muslims aren’t dangerous so they’ll let their guard down long enough for us to take over.

And BTW, you husband hates you. ///

/ thats why I am single… I never met a woman I hated enough to marry.

252 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:49:18pm

re: #251 brookly red

/ thats why I am single… I never met a woman I hated enough to marry.

Just find a woman you hate and give her half yor stuff!!!
///

253 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:49:37pm

re: #252 Cannadian Club Akbar

Just find a woman you hate and give her half yor stuff!!!
///

But with nice boobs!!

254 Ryan King  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:49:43pm

re: #245 PT Barnum

anybody a musician? Any recommendations for a good beginner guitar? Not really pricy (since I’m not sure whether I’ll stick with it).

You’d be better off buying a used beat up ugly better guitar that plays and sounds good than a brand new cheap guitar. My take on it.

If you can find an fugly old Martin or Takamine that is catching dust it would be worth it, as long as they play well. The action and sound of a better guitar… is what makes them better.

255 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:49:44pm

re: #245 PT Barnum

anybody a musician? Any recommendations for a good beginner guitar? Not really pricy (since I’m not sure whether I’ll stick with it).

Fender Squire. Decent enough action that your fingers won’t get too frustrated.

256 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:49:58pm

re: #252 Cannadian Club Akbar

Just find a woman you hate and give her half yor stuff!!!
///

That’s cheating on the full experience. You have to savor it, or whats the damn point?!

257 avanti  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:50:34pm

re: #239 Dark_Falcon

That’s not what I am saying. My Lai did happen, but it was the only such atrocity committed by American forces. John Kerry charged that US troops had made such conduct a matter of routine, which clearly was not the case. That is what makes him a liar and a dirtbag.

If you think My Lai was the only atrocity that occurred, you’ve been misinformed. It probably was the worse, but there were others, many covered up, just as they tried to cover up my Lai.
Kerry never condemned all of the troops, but misconduct was far from rare amount a minority.
Even on my ship, I witnessed cover ups of much smaller incidents that were not as serious, but would have been embarrassing.

258 Ryan King  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:51:16pm

re: #247 Cato the Elder

Harlan Ellison on anti-intellectualism in America and people who say, “But I’m entitled to my opinion”:

“No, schmuck, you are not entitled to your opinion. You’re entitled to your informed opinion. Without information, it’s just babble, hot air, and farts in the wind.”

LOL. He said Hot Air.

Reminds me of the the beat down Hitchens gave Mos Def a while back. Mos Def thought ‘I have an opinion, therefore it is of value.’

259 The War TARDIS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:51:16pm

re: #151 albusteve

Really, cause I was of the thought that many of the Propositions passed in California since the 80’s that have made it hard to raise taxes at all created the mess they were in. Paying taxes allows for good infrastructure, a social safety net, and a solvent government.

And here I thought that Graham wasn’t a complete nut.

re: #235 HoosierHoops

OU is very cool (I might be biased). I hope this year I’ll be able to see more in OKC. Living in Colorado Springs most of life means I’ve never seen an actual mosque that looks a mosque. I’ve seen the complex for a certain organization in my city that I have very strong opinions of though.

260 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:51:22pm

re: #245 PT Barnum

anybody a musician? Any recommendations for a good beginner guitar? Not really pricy (since I’m not sure whether I’ll stick with it).

…and craigslist is your friend.

261 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:51:23pm

re: #248 Cannadian Club Akbar

[Link: www.zzounds.com…]

Bought a nephew a guitar here.

Thanks. I bookmarked.

262 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:51:43pm

Is the Lizard Annex at True slant shutting down?

263 justaminute  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:51:59pm

re: #235 HoosierHoops

I hope your ready, it’s going to get much hotter in the next couple of days. You should make it down to Bricktown this weekend in the evening. It’s got water, good food, some great bars, a gigantic movie theater, a boat rides like San Antonio so you can see all the attractions on the canal. Then you could stop by my restaurant for breakfast. We’re not working for the rest of the week, but that’s ok the food is still good.//

264 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:52:03pm

re: #256 windsagio

That’s cheating on the full experience. You have to savor it, or whats the damn point?!

I have 3 piles of clothes on my floor: Clean, worn once, dirty. Find a woman who will tolerate that!!

266 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:53:05pm

re: #260 tnguitarist

…and craigslist is your friend.

I had a guitar that I bought at a pawn shop but I sold it on ebay later cause I didn’t have time. Now things aren’t quite as crazy so I’ll check out the one you suggested. I’m mostly interested in accompanying myself so acoustic is the way I’m gonna go.

267 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:53:46pm

re: #263 justaminute

I hope your ready, it’s going to get much hotter in the next couple of days. You should make it down to Bricktown this weekend in the evening. It’s got water, good food, some great bars, a gigantic movie theater, a boat rides like San Antonio so you can see all the attractions on the canal. Then you could stop by my restaurant for breakfast. We’re not working for the rest of the week, but that’s ok the food is still good.//

Awesome thanks..I’m going to the Memorial in OK. City Sunday.. I will never forget that day…

268 Ojoe  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:53:46pm

re: #264 Cannadian Club Akbar

Be careful not to make white clothes pink.

269 The War TARDIS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:53:50pm

Shoot, I was managed to accidently paste something from an earlier post while trying to the reply to HoosierHoops. I’m really sorry.

270 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:54:59pm

re: #268 Ojoe

Be careful not to make white clothes pink.

I have plies. You think I separate white and colors?

271 justaminute  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:55:15pm

re: #250 CuriousLurker

Yea, but my mother-in-law thought I could do no wrong.

272 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:55:45pm

re: #270 Cannadian Club Akbar

I have plies. You think I separate white and colors?

The proper answer is to just never get any bright red clothes.

273 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:55:51pm

re: #266 PT Barnum

If you’re going acoustic, definitely use cl. It’s better to get one that’s old and beat up but plays good. Your fingers are gonna hurt at first. Don’t give up!

274 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:56:04pm

re: #255 tnguitarist

Fender Squire. Decent enough action that your fingers won’t get too frustrated.

Musicans friend has a starter pack with a gig bag and tuner for 99..that seems a little cheap.

275 Ojoe  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:56:11pm

re: #270 Cannadian Club Akbar

If you have a GF & you make some of her white clothes pink, you’ll hear an ear full.

276 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:57:03pm

re: #274 PT Barnum

Musicans friend has a starter pack with a gig bag and tuner for 99..that seems a little cheap.

Action on and electric is closer than an acoustic.

277 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:57:08pm

re: #270 Cannadian Club Akbar

I have plies. You think I separate white and colors?

If you have piles you should probably go see your proctologist.

278 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:57:44pm

re: #239 Dark_Falcon

That’s not what I am saying. My Lai did happen, but it was the only such atrocity committed by American forces.

The only atrocity ever committed was actively covered up for months on end by a bureaucracy totally unaccustomed to such behavior from a force of conscripts in an active foreign war-zone, riddled with piss poor morale and hard drug addiction issues.

I wish I could have your pollyannaish level of credulity, but unfortunately I’ve heard too many stories from people who were actually there and actually witnessed atrocities.

279 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:57:48pm

re: #275 Ojoe

If you have a GF & you make some of her white clothes pink, you’ll hear an ear full.

I hate doing my own laundry. Why would I do hers? Oh, wait.

280 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:58:01pm

re: #277 PT Barnum

If you have piles you should probably go see your proctologist.

are we back to jalapeños?

281 Irenicum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:58:07pm

re: #249 PT Barnum

Oh sheet, I can’t believe you said that!

282 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:58:35pm

re: #277 PT Barnum

If you have piles you should probably go see your proctologist.

I’m building a stalagmite.
/

283 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:58:36pm

re: #257 avanti

If you think My Lai was the only atrocity that occurred, you’ve been misinformed. It probably was the worse, but there were others, many covered up, just as they tried to cover up my Lai.
Kerry never condemned all of the troops, but misconduct was far from rare amount a minority.
Even on my ship, I witnessed cover ups of much smaller incidents that were not as serious, but would have been embarrassing.


If I might try out my John Stewart tone of voice…

No, no, no, embarrassing is getting caught with your pants down around your ankles while yanking it… military incidents that had to be “covered up” are….

(I’m not going to say what as I wasn’t there and thus can’t give a valid opinion, I just don’t think that “embarrassing” might be selling it a little short)

284 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:58:50pm

re: #276 Cannadian Club Akbar

Action on and electric is closer than an acoustic.

Definitely easier on the fingers.

285 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:00:18pm

re: #284 tnguitarist

Definitely easier on the fingers.

I had a Strat that I had to end up pawning.:(

286 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:00:18pm

re: #276 Cannadian Club Akbar

Action on and electric is closer than an acoustic.

This was an acoustic…re: #284 tnguitarist

Definitely easier on the fingers.

Would I be better off getting an acoustic electric or just an electric to learn chords and etc?

I’m not interested in doing rock music, more folk.

287 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:00:24pm

re: #257 avanti

If you think My Lai was the only atrocity that occurred, you’ve been misinformed. It probably was the worse, but there were others, many covered up, just as they tried to cover up my Lai.
Kerry never condemned all of the troops, but misconduct was far from rare amount a minority.
Even on my ship, I witnessed cover ups of much smaller incidents that were not as serious, but would have been embarrassing.

Example?

288 Ojoe  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:00:28pm

re: #204 tnguitarist

Sounds good. I love jalapenos, but they no longer love back.

I ate one of those habaneros.

I almost died

I habanero escape.

289 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:01:11pm

re: #284 tnguitarist

Definitely easier on the fingers.

Thou shalt only play Strats and Gibson Hummingbirds..
Thus sayeth the Hoopster

290 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:01:12pm

re: #288 Ojoe

I ate one of those habaneros.

I almost died

I habanero escape.

I will resist peppering you with questions. Is it chili in here?

291 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:01:56pm

re: #289 HoosierHoops

Thou shalt only play Strats and Gibson Hummingbirds..
Thus sayeth the Hoopster

Strat. Sunburst.

292 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:02:10pm

re: #290 PT Barnum

*obligatory anti-pun guy*

You guys suck balls, I want you to know that.

293 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:02:41pm

Argh, gotta run. Have fun.

294 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:02:47pm

re: #291 Cannadian Club Akbar

Strat. Sunburst.

Foam green..But any old Strat will do

295 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:02:57pm

re: #293 CuriousLurker

No aneurysms!

(seriously have a good night :p)

296 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:03:15pm

re: #292 windsagio

*obligatory anti-pun guy*

You guys suck balls, I want you to know that.

There are more things on heaven and earth Fellatio than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

297 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:03:28pm

re: #285 Cannadian Club Akbar

I had a Strat that I had to end up pawning.:(

That’s always sad. I will never get rid of another guitar. I just keep adding to the collection. Not really a collection, I play them all and I could never resell for any kind of value. I’m rough on em.

298 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:04:07pm

re: #287 Dark_Falcon

Example?

How about Pat “Fucking Illegal” Tillman? That was a pretty good coverup.

299 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:04:24pm

re: #297 tnguitarist

That’s always sad. I will never get rid of another guitar. I just keep adding to the collection. Not really a collection, I play them all and I could never resell for any kind of value. I’m rough on em.

I am the same with baseball memorabilia.

300 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:04:33pm

re: #288 Ojoe

I ate one of those habaneros.

I almost died

I habanero escape.

I did eat a habanero once. It was the first and only time I cried from eating food. I had my head in the freezer, eating ice cubes.

301 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:04:59pm

re: #285 Cannadian Club Akbar

I had a Strat that I had to end up pawning.:(

Saw a photograph of a blues guitarist in a pawn shop with the caption, “If it ain’t been in a pawnshop; it can’t play the blues.”

302 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:05:32pm

re: #294 HoosierHoops

Foam green..But any old Strat will do

Sunburst. I like to see the wood grain.

303 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:05:43pm

so for learning, easier to start with an electric or an acoustic?

304 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:05:55pm

Getting Paid To Smoke Pot
Liveleak Video
Nice gig.

305 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:06:03pm

re: #300 tnguitarist

I did eat a habanero once. It was the first and only time I cried from eating food. I had my head in the freezer, eating ice cubes.

I once told a waitress she could sell me one (sauce) or I could steal the one on the table. Heh.

306 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:06:09pm

re: #298 goddamnedfrank

Every single wrong thing I”ve ever done got caught.

All of them.

…And you know how incompetant at everything they always tell us the government is… >>

307 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:06:26pm

re: #303 PT Barnum

so for learning, easier to start with an electric or an acoustic?

“Rock Band”

/ducks

308 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:06:27pm

re: #300 tnguitarist

I did eat a habanero once. It was the first and only time I cried from eating food. I had my head in the freezer, eating ice cubes.

you should practice eating them, after awhile mace has no effect on you. well other that to make you hungry.

309 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:06:28pm

re: #304 Killgore Trout

My resume’ is in the mail.

310 Irenicum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:06:37pm

re: #303 PT Barnum

I started on an acoustic nylon string. Much friendlier on the fingers.

311 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:07:04pm

re: #303 PT Barnum

Classical guitar… larger fingerboard.. easier action on the fingers… more forgiving than an electric.

My non guitar playing self giving advice… My son has thirty or so guitars…

312 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:07:36pm

re: #302 tnguitarist

Sunburst. I like to see the wood grain.

zzounds.com

313 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:07:52pm

re: #310 Irenicum

I started on an acoustic nylon string. Much friendlier on the fingers.

Ah..good idea…My biggest problem from before was that I kept pressing on more than one string at a time on my fretting hand.

314 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:07:53pm

re: #302 tnguitarist

Sunburst. I like to see the wood grain.

I saw John Mayer play a beat up old Strat in Chicago 2007…Strats Rock!

315 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:08:19pm

re: #306 windsagio

Every single wrong thing I”ve ever done got caught.

All of them.

…And you know how incompetant at everything they always tell us the government is… >>

well see if you only had had the power to investigate your self it would have all been cool.

316 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:08:51pm

re: #310 Irenicum

I started on an acoustic nylon string. Much friendlier on the fingers.

Really? I hate nylon strings. PT, get an acoustic and put electric strings on it. It won’t quite have that acoustic sound, but it will be easier on your fingers and you’ll still be able to play without an amp.

317 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:09:28pm

re: #311 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Classical guitar… larger fingerboard.. easier action on the fingers… more forgiving than an electric.

My non guitar playing self giving advice… My son has thirty or so guitars…

Speaking of Cordoba..

318 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:09:46pm

re: #315 brookly red

well see if you only had had the power to investigate your self it would have all been cool.

God, ain’t that the truth?

I’d be better off than *warning! example deleted for Windie’s own protection!!!*

319 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:10:19pm

I can play the hell out of a baritone. Not a lot of career choices there.

320 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:10:20pm

re: #298 goddamnedfrank

How about Pat “Fucking Illegal” Tillman? That was a pretty good coverup.

That was Afghanistan, not Vietnam.

321 Ojoe  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:10:32pm

‘Night all.

322 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:10:41pm

Oh, and PT? If you’re gonna play a Martin guitar, don’t play it near this guy…

323 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:11:02pm

re: #320 Dark_Falcon

That was Afghanistan, not Vietnam.

What, they’re only allowed one cover-up per war?

324 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:11:59pm

re: #317 PT Barnum

Made of Fine Corinthian Leather.

325 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:12:02pm

re: #312 Cannadian Club Akbar

This is mine. Sienna sunburst.

…and I built this guy.

Yeah I know, shameless plug.

326 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:12:07pm

re: #323 windsagio

What, they’re only allowed one cover-up per war?

frikin stupid rules of engagement…

327 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:12:38pm

re: #326 brookly red

Yer on a roll tonight brook >

328 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:13:11pm

re: #316 tnguitarist

Really? I hate nylon strings. PT, get an acoustic and put electric strings on it. It won’t quite have that acoustic sound, but it will be easier on your fingers and you’ll still be able to play without an amp.

Okay..I’ll try that. I found what looks like a nice package for about $200 that looks like it’s going to fit the bill. Now to start the long drawn out process of talking my wife into letting me spend the money.

329 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:13:25pm
Colin Powell, then a 31-year-old Army major, was charged with investigating the letter, which did not specifically reference My Lai (Glen had limited knowledge of the events there). In his report, Powell wrote, “In direct refutation of this portrayal is the fact that relations between American[26] soldiers and the Vietnamese people are excellent.” Powell’s handling of the assignment was later characterized by some observers as “whitewashing” the atrocities of My Lai.[27] In May 2004, Powell, then United States Secretary of State, told CNN’s Larry King, “I mean, I was in a unit that was responsible for My Lai. I got there after My Lai happened. So, in war, these sorts of horrible things happen every now and again, but they are still to be deplored.”[28]

Deplored, but not investigated very hard.

330 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:13:26pm

re: #323 windsagio

What, they’re only allowed one cover-up per war?

Somebody said the first casualty of war is the truth

331 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:14:12pm

re: #328 PT Barnum

Okay..I’ll try that. I found what looks like a nice package for about $200 that looks like it’s going to fit the bill. Now to start the long drawn out process of talking my wife into letting me spend the money.

Just cry. It seems to work for women.:)

332 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:14:16pm

Well I gotta go..you all have fun..gnite.

333 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:14:21pm

re: #314 HoosierHoops

I saw John Mayer play a beat up old Strat in Chicago 2007…Strats Rock!

I love Strats and prefer them, but sometimes ya just need that scream that only two humbuckers and a set neck can give you.

334 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:14:34pm

re: #320 Dark_Falcon

That was Afghanistan, not Vietnam.

So we’ve learned nothing.

335 PT Barnum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:15:03pm

re: #331 Cannadian Club Akbar

Just cry. It seems to work for women.:)

But we weren’t talking about sex.

336 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:15:04pm

re: #328 PT Barnum

Remember, it’s easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

337 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:15:47pm

re: #334 goddamnedfrank

So we’ve learned nothing.

Well most of us have learned its not necessarily good to trust the government about these things ;)

338 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:15:56pm

re: #335 PT Barnum

But we weren’t talking about sex.

This is MUCH more important!!!
/

339 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:17:29pm

re: #334 goddamnedfrank

So we’ve learned nothing.

No, we’ve clearly done better in Afghanistan. But Tillman had been a prestige person for the Army, and given the way he died, I would’ve covered up the facts too.

340 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:17:35pm

re: #336 tnguitarist

Remember, it’s easier to ask beg for forgiveness than permission.

We’re talking about a wife. 27 years of experience talking here.

341 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:18:04pm

re: #340 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

We’re talking about a wife. 27 years of experience talking here.

15 here.

342 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:18:11pm

I emails a company once asking if they made left handed cellos. Answer? No.

343 avanti  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:18:20pm

re: #287 Dark_Falcon

Example?

OK, here’s one that I witnessed, that I’ll call embarrassing to morale at least. One of the missions of my cruiser was hunting and sinking “WABLIK’s (water born logistics crafts). As a 20 something sailor, I pictured NVA troops in small armed, gray patrol boats patrolling off the N Vietnam coast.
We’d pick them out on radar and sink them from a few miles out with our 3 inch guns. One day we picked up a survivor in the water, a kid maybe 10 years old and took him to sick bay. He was so frightened he actually crapped on the examining table.
The rest of his family had been found by the sharks and were left in the water. The kid was put in a rubber raft near the coast so he could make land fall. We were asked to not report the nature of the wooden boats we were attacking, nor anything about the survivor.
Later in the cruise, we actaully approached a WABLIK with just machine guns at the ready and found a old lady and her kid with their baskets of fish, and after inspection, they were left alone.
I know some percentage of those small boats were moving arms to the south, but the realization that we’d probably sunk dozens of simple fishing boats was a downer to our morale, and the command did not want that info sent home in letters.

344 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:18:20pm

re: #339 Dark_Falcon

No, we’ve clearly done better in Afghanistan. But Tillman had been a prestige person for the Army, and given the way he died, I would’ve covered up the facts too.

…

Jesus man.

345 Irenicum  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:20:12pm

re: #339 Dark_Falcon

Are you serious? Does his family matter? Does honor matter? God, I can’t believe you said that.

346 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:20:19pm

re: #344 windsagio

Ok needs a bit more. There’s something terribly wrong about saying ‘I’d lie to the people about a mistake because he had made the government look good.’

347 avanti  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:21:21pm

re: #339 Dark_Falcon

No, we’ve clearly done better in Afghanistan. But Tillman had been a prestige person for the Army, and given the way he died, I would’ve covered up the facts too.

Dark, we are in serious disagreement on this one. The guy was killed by friendly fire and you want it covered up because it’s bad PR ?

348 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:22:13pm

re: #347 avanti

Government has to lie to the people to protect them!

Otherwise the fools might make a wrong decision!!!

349 Pie-onist Overlord  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:22:38pm

re: #238 PT Barnum

Chipotle raspberry sauce yum! Bought some the other night. Goes great with cream cheese on crackers.

Jalapeno ice cream

350 Ojoe  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:22:45pm

re: #308 brookly red

I read on LGF that NYPD pepper spray is “freaking awesome” on a slice of pizza.

Good night again.

351 Stanley Sea  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:22:51pm

re: #339 Dark_Falcon

No, we’ve clearly done better in Afghanistan. But Tillman had been a prestige person for the Army, and given the way he died, I would’ve covered up the facts too.

Oh my, and I’m sure there’s 300 other people who think like you do. That scares the shit about me.

Oh, and what about Pat Tillman’s mother? She’s gone through hell because of the cover up.

352 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:22:58pm

re: #343 avanti

OK, here’s one that I witnessed, that I’ll call embarrassing to morale at least. One of the missions of my cruiser was hunting and sinking “WABLIK’s (water born logistics crafts). As a 20 something sailor, I pictured NVA troops in small armed, gray patrol boats patrolling off the N Vietnam coast.
We’d pick them out on radar and sink them from a few miles out with our 3 inch guns. One day we picked up a survivor in the water, a kid maybe 10 years old and took him to sick bay. He was so frightened he actually crapped on the examining table.
The rest of his family had been found by the sharks and were left in the water. The kid was put in a rubber raft near the coast so he could make land fall. We were asked to not report the nature of the wooden boats we were attacking, nor anything about the survivor.
Later in the cruise, we actaully approached a WABLIK with just machine guns at the ready and found a old lady and her kid with their baskets of fish, and after inspection, they were left alone.
I know some percentage of those small boats were moving arms to the south, but the realization that we’d probably sunk dozens of simple fishing boats was a downer to our morale, and the command did not want that info sent home in letters.

Embarrassing yes, but not an atrocity. That having been said, that situation was very badly handled, I agree. Newport News should have been supported by a number of smaller craft to enable search of suspect ships, rather than a shoot-first policy.

353 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:24:18pm

re: #349 Alouette

Jalapeno ice cream

Did ya see my idea for jalapeno and raspberry pie?

354 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:24:25pm

re: #347 avanti

Dark, we are in serious disagreement on this one. The guy was killed by friendly fire and you want it covered up because it’s bad PR ?

That’s not what he said. Really guys, step back and read his quotes again, this time with the benefit of the doubt you’d give an acquaintance you don’t assume is pure evil.

355 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:24:42pm

re: #347 avanti

Dark, we are in serious disagreement on this one. The guy was killed by friendly fire and you want it covered up because it’s bad PR ?

Do I think the coverup was a good thing? No. But I understand why it happened, and in the shoes of the people who did it I think I would have done the same thing. Call it a confession of weakness, rather than a preference for lies.

356 The War TARDIS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:25:35pm

re: #349 Alouette

Why did they do that? Ice Cream is supposed to be cool and refreshing. Putting Jalapenos in it takes the point of Ice Cream away.

357 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:26:23pm

re: #354 BryanS

That’s not what he said. Really guys, step back and read his quotes again, this time with the benefit of the doubt you’d give an acquaintance you don’t assume is pure evil.

Thank you, Brian.

358 Pie-onist Overlord  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:26:40pm

re: #353 Cannadian Club Akbar

Did ya see my idea for jalapeno and raspberry pie?

I’m not going there.

359 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:26:40pm

re: #356 ProLifeLiberal

Why did they do that? Ice Cream is supposed to be cool and refreshing. Putting Jalapenos in it takes the point of Ice Cream away.

Sounds really amazing to me, good juxtaposition of textures and flavors.

360 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:27:09pm

re: #356 ProLifeLiberal

Why did they do that? Ice Cream is supposed to be cool and refreshing. Putting Jalapenos in it takes the point of Ice Cream away.

Jalapenos have great flavor. If you are in the AC, yer good.

361 Max  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:27:41pm

re: #347 avanti

Dark, we are in serious disagreement on this one. The guy was killed by friendly fire and you want it covered up because it’s bad PR ?

A government that doles out false info during war time? That’s never happened before.

362 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:28:29pm

re: #361 Max D. Reinhardt

A government that doles out false info during war time? That’s never happened before.

Umm, you realize that you linked to this thread, and not to another one, right?

363 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:28:35pm

re: #361 Max D. Reinhardt

A government that doles out false info during war time? That’s never happened before.

Guessing that link was supposed to be to something relevant? >>

364 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:28:36pm

re: #358 Alouette

I’m not going there.

Thicken raspberries with a slurry, add jalapenos. (no seeds) Should work.

365 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:28:44pm

re: #360 Cannadian Club Akbar

Jalapenos have great flavor. If you are in the AC, yer good.

back when I ate meat I made a special burger… I topped it with jalapeño poppers & salsa.

366 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:28:56pm

re: #362 jamesfirecat

Its the front page, nub.

367 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:29:16pm

re: #336 tnguitarist

Remember, it’s easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

That used to be Bernie Ward’s signature statement at the end of his program, God Talk, then of course he got busted for distributing child porn and now he’s rotting in a federal prison somewhere in hell.

368 Max  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:29:25pm

My bad.

369 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:29:34pm

re: #357 Dark_Falcon

Thank you, Brian.

No problem. The first clue to a gratuitous pileup was a down ding of your statement “That was Afghanistan, not Vietnam.” in response to a discussion about atrocities in Vietnam when Tillman’s name was brought up.

Fairly innocuous statements getting dinged is a pretty clear sign of tempers flaring.

370 Pie-onist Overlord  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:29:35pm

re: #360 Cannadian Club Akbar

Jalapenos have great flavor. If you are in the AC, yer good.

I like jalapenos, but I don’t think I would like them in ice cream. But, my son puts jalapenos in chicken soup. It might be interesting to put them in matzo balls.

371 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:30:12pm

re: #368 Max D. Reinhardt

My bad.

Yes. We were wrong in WW2.

372 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:30:12pm

re: #349 Alouette

Jalapeno ice cream

AT a party a couple of months ago..sampled bacon cheesecake. Another excellent combination.

373 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:30:18pm

re: #355 Dark_Falcon

Do I think the coverup was a good thing? No. But I understand why it happened, and in the shoes of the people who did it I think I would have done the same thing. Call it a confession of weakness, rather than a preference for lies.

Horrible situation, and the decisions really had to be made quickly. I’m sure the decision-makers involved at the time would do it different in retrospect. If this sort of thing came out under Obama, he would be skewered for it. By a lot of the same people who were saying, “chill out, it’s not that big a deal” when it happened under Bush.

374 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:30:31pm

re: #355 Dark_Falcon

Do I think the coverup was a good thing? No. But I understand why it happened, and in the shoes of the people who did it I think I would have done the same thing. Call it a confession of weakness, rather than a preference for lies.

Is there a difference? Sacrificing things like the honor and dignity of the fallen on the alter of expedience isn’t exactly laudable.

375 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:30:55pm

re: #368 Max D. Reinhardt

To be frank, not quite sure what your point is.

Care to ellucidate? I’m exhausted from doing family crap all day.

376 avanti  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:30:57pm

re: #352 Dark_Falcon

Embarrassing yes, but not an atrocity. That having been said, that situation was very badly handled, I agree. Newport News should have been supported by a number of smaller craft to enable search of suspect ships, rather than a shoot-first policy.

Suspect ships ?, shit, these things were maybe 12-14 feet long wooden boats. We could have sunk them with hunting rifle and a tug boat, no need for a heavy cruiser.

377 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:31:12pm

re: #370 Alouette

I like jalapenos, but I don’t think I would like them in ice cream. But, my son puts jalapenos in chicken soup. It might be interesting to put them in matzo balls.

I am SO there. I am number 254 at the table. Come by and say hello.
//

378 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:31:29pm

re: #374 goddamnedfrank

altar, damnit.

379 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:32:12pm

re: #378 goddamnedfrank

altar, damnit.

you don’t know how funny that is…

380 prairiefire  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:33:34pm

re: #373 cliffster

McChrystal had some involvement, IIRC. There was never any proof that it was fratricide, either.

381 Max  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:34:06pm

re: #375 windsagio

Propaganda and cover ups that are intended to hold morale steady are common. I’m not too familiar with the Tillman case but this kind of situation doesn’t seem too uncommon to me.

382 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:34:40pm

re: #376 avanti

Suspect ships ?, shit, these things were maybe 12-14 feet long wooden boats. We could have sunk them with hunting rifle and a tug boat, no need for a heavy cruiser.

Boats that size have been used as supply craft. I was just agreeing with you that they should have been boarded and searched, instead of sunk out of hand.

383 justaminute  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:35:20pm

re: #372 eclectic infidel

Dude, if your going to be a chef some day, I am going to have to check you out.

384 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:35:44pm

re: #381 Max D. Reinhardt

Propaganda and cover ups that are intended to hold morale steady are common. I’m not too familiar with the Tillman case but this kind of situation doesn’t seem too uncommon to me.

Its substantially different than normal wartime propaganda, really.

Short version: Football star Volenteers for the marines, becomes instant hero. Hero is reported shot in some heroic manner or another, becomes bigger hero. Story eventually breaks that hero died in friendly fire and the government lied about it.

That’s a whole different kettle of fish.

385 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:36:20pm

re: #383 justaminute

Dude, if your going to be a chef some day, I am going to have to check you out.

I’ll definitely keep LGF informed of my progress. :)

386 avanti  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:36:52pm

re: #381 Max D. Reinhardt

Propaganda and cover ups that are intended to hold morale steady are common. I’m not too familiar with the Tillman case but this kind of situation doesn’t seem too uncommon to me.

Common yes, good policy, no way. If you risk life and limb for your country, the least you should expect is the truth from your commanders.

387 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:36:58pm

re: #382 Dark_Falcon

But you’re still implying that it was proper to deal with them this way.

Let me ask you, is there anything the US military did that you do think was wrong?

388 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:37:04pm

re: #385 eclectic infidel

I’ll definitely keep LGF informed of my progress. :)

Are you going to skool or working yor way up?

389 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:37:33pm

re: #254 BigPapa

You’d be better off buying a used beat up ugly better guitar that plays and sounds good than a brand new cheap guitar. My take on it.

If you can find an fugly old Martin or Takamine that is catching dust it would be worth it, as long as they play well. The action and sound of a better guitar… is what makes them better.

I have a Takamine EF341 that I love, but the sound doesn’t touch the Blueridge BR160 I have. I also have an Ovation Legend that sounds good acoustically but sounds incredible when plugged in.

390 avanti  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:38:03pm

re: #382 Dark_Falcon

Boats that size have been used as supply craft. I was just agreeing with you that they should have been boarded and searched, instead of sunk out of hand.

On that we agree.

391 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:38:12pm

re: #388 Cannadian Club Akbar

Are you going to skool or working yor way up?

My intent is to attend formal training at skool.

392 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:38:20pm

re: #264 Cannadian Club Akbar

I have 3 piles of clothes on my floor: Clean, worn once, dirty. Find a woman who will tolerate that!!

My wife.

393 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:38:33pm

re: #391 eclectic infidel

My intent is to attend formal training at skool.

CIA?

394 prairiefire  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:38:33pm

re: #371 Cannadian Club Akbar

Yes. We were wrong in WW2.

There was so much racism during that time period it is almost hard to compare to our times.

395 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:39:03pm

re: #374 goddamnedfrank

Is there a difference? Sacrificing things like the honor and dignity of the fallen on the alter of expedience isn’t exactly laudable.

It’s not laudable, but what do you want from me? I do my best to be honest, and I have never lied to you. But there are some very-high-pressure tests I fear I would fail, and the situation faced by PAt Tillman’s superiors is one of them. I pray I will be honest, but I have my doubts about myself, given who i know myself to be.

396 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:39:08pm

re: #392 b_sharp

My wife.

I can’t date her!!
///

397 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:39:15pm

re: #273 tnguitarist

If you’re going acoustic, definitely use cl. It’s better to get one that’s old and beat up but plays good. Your fingers are gonna hurt at first. Don’t give up!

Play until your fingers bleed.

398 Stanley Sea  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:39:33pm

This SF Gate column is really long
But it’s worth the read to know the story of Pat Tillman

399 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:39:37pm

re: #394 prairiefire

There was so much racism during that time period it is almost hard to compare to our times.

Gore Vidal: “In the pacific, it was entirely a race war.”

400 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:39:39pm

re: #393 Cannadian Club Akbar

CIA?

Probably the culinary academy in San Francisco. Regardless, I’ll have to work my way up anyway, but I’m quite alright with that.

401 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:40:29pm

re: #400 eclectic infidel

Probably the culinary academy in San Francisco. Regardless, I’ll have to work my way up anyway, but I’m quite alright with that.

Look into CIA. Well worth it.

402 Max  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:41:22pm

re: #384 windsagio

During the preparations for D-Day 800 US soldiers were killed in training exercises. To my knowledge, the US government took its sweet time to inform the families of the cause of their deaths.

Arguably, it was a mistake and it was bad policy, but in wartime, I hate to put it so callously, these things happen.

403 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:41:39pm

re: #395 Dark_Falcon

It’s not laudable, but what do you want from me? I do my best to be honest, and I have never lied to you. But there are some very-high-pressure tests I fear I would fail, and the situation faced by PAt Tillman’s superiors is one of them. I pray I will be honest, but I have my doubts about myself, given who i know myself to be.

“Truth is sought not because it is truth but because it is good.”

-Simone Weil (has a posse)

404 Pie-onist Overlord  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:42:09pm

re: #264 Cannadian Club Akbar

I have 3 piles of clothes on my floor: Clean, worn once, dirty. Find a woman who will tolerate that!!

That’s why Zedushka has his own bedroom.

405 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:42:43pm

re: #387 windsagio

But you’re still implying that it was proper to deal with them this way.

Let me ask you, is there anything the US military did that you do think was wrong?

No, I’m not. Sinking those boats out of hand was wrong. Period. We had better options available. However, I do not feel the wrong in the matter avanti escalated to the level of an atrocity. But to say it was not an atrocity is not to say it was not wrong.

406 prairiefire  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:42:48pm

re: #399 windsagio

Gore Vidal: “In the pacific, it was entirely a race war.”

My step-mom told me she was glad I married my Japanese American husband at a time when all of my grand parents had passed on.
Not a very elegant thing to say, but I could see she was glad not to have the trouble.

407 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:42:51pm

re: #396 Cannadian Club Akbar

I can’t date her!!
///

She won’t let me lend her out either, sorry.

408 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:43:44pm

re: #405 Dark_Falcon

Good enough answer, thanks :)

409 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:44:21pm

re: #407 b_sharp

She won’t let me lend her out either, sorry.

But, if we became members of a biker gang…
///

410 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:45:09pm

re: #405 Dark_Falcon

No, I’m not. Sinking those boats out of hand was wrong. Period. We had better options available. However, I do not feel the wrong in the matter avanti escalated to the level of an atrocity. But to say it was not an atrocity is not to say it was not wrong.

I guess atrocity is in the eye of the beholder… no?

411 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:45:49pm

re: #410 brookly red

I thought avanti was talking about cover-ups not atrocities, tho’.

412 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:45:51pm

re: #402 Max D. Reinhardt

During the preparations for D-Day 800 US soldiers were killed in training exercises. To my knowledge, the US government took its sweet time to inform the families of the cause of their deaths.

Arguably, it was a mistake and it was bad policy, but in wartime, I hate to put it so callously, these things happen.

Who could say if that was bad policy? What if 800 people dieing in training exercises, if publicly known, gave intel to the enemy about a huge attack?

A lot of information is withheld during war , and often for good reasons. When does the dishonesty outweigh the benefit? I don’t think it’s cut and dry. The casualties from D-Day were huge—good thing those numbers were not publicized. As the WWII saying went, “loose lips sink ships”.

413 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:46:49pm

re: #409 Cannadian Club Akbar

But, if we became members of a biker gang…
///

Cool.

I have a Raleigh.

414 Max  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:47:02pm

re: #412 BryanS

Who could say if that was bad policy? What if 800 people dieing in training exercises, if publicly known, gave intel to the enemy about a huge attack?

A lot of information is withheld during war , and often for good reasons. When does the dishonesty outweigh the benefit? I don’t think it’s cut and dry. The casualties from D-Day were huge—good thing those numbers were not publicized. As the WWII saying went, “loose lips sink ships”.

The security of information during wartime is a lesson that the US has forgotten (cough.. Julian Assange… cough).

415 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:47:10pm

re: #403 goddamnedfrank

“Truth is sought not because it is truth but because it is good.”

-Simone Weil (has a posse)

Idealistic pap. In war, the victorious get to say what is the truth.

416 mr. hammer  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:47:12pm

re: #245 PT Barnum

anybody a musician? Any recommendations for a good beginner guitar? Not really pricy (since I’m not sure whether I’ll stick with it).

Rather late to the party… but my suggestion is a Yamaha FG730S. Brand new for about $299 most places. I was astonished at how nice it was. Solid spruce top, rosewood back and sides. Decent tuners. Really really nice for the money. When it comes to a beginner guitar, don’t go too cheap. Cheap instruments are often difficult to play and sound uninspiring to day the least. Spend $300 bucks and get something that you’ll look forward to picking up every day.

417 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:47:32pm

re: #411 windsagio

I thought avanti was talking about cover-ups not atrocities, tho’.

I was responding to DF tho’

418 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:47:53pm

re: #402 Max D. Reinhardt

During the preparations for D-Day 800 US soldiers were killed in training exercises. To my knowledge, the US government took its sweet time to inform the families of the cause of their deaths.

Arguably, it was a mistake and it was bad policy, but in wartime, I hate to put it so callously, these things happen.

Actually, D-Day is one of the few cases in history where lies and and coverups can be justified. Operation Overlord needed to achieve strategic surprise. To have notified families that their sons died from an E-Boat attack on their landing rehearsal would have risked losing that surprise. Had the Germans understood the invasion target was Normandy, D-Day might have ended in disaster.

419 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:48:02pm

re: #412 BryanS

Didn’t we lose 1200 men practicing for D-Day?

420 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:48:32pm

re: #417 brookly red

I was responding to DF tho’

IF responding to someone that’s responding to a misunderstanding, is it appropriate to correct the misunderstanding, especially if it has some bearing on the response?

421 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:49:16pm

re: #415 BryanS

Idealistic pap. In war, the victorious get to say what is the truth.

“History will be kind to me, because I intend to write it.”

- Winston Spencer Churchill

422 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:49:51pm

re: #419 Cannadian Club Akbar

Didn’t we lose 1200 men practicing for D-Day?

Possibly—I’m not knowledgeable of the facts here. Just responding to another post with that figure.

423 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:50:03pm

re: #420 windsagio

IF responding to someone that’s responding to a misunderstanding, is it appropriate to correct the misunderstanding, especially if it has some bearing on the response?

but today is Thursday…

424 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:50:11pm

re: #421 Dark_Falcon

Funny thing is History eventually caught up with Churchill >>

425 Max  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:50:31pm

re: #418 Dark_Falcon

Actually, D-Day is one of the few cases in history where lies and and coverups can be justified. Operation Overlord needed to achieve strategic surprise. To have notified families that their sons died from an E-Boat attack on their landing rehearsal would have risked losing that surprise. Had the Germans understood the invasion target was Normandy, D-Day might have ended in disaster.

A good point I want to make: if we judged D-Day by today’s standards it might be considered a disastrous victory, like the second Battle of Fallujah.

The hundreds dead in training exercises and the bad intel about German trenches and barbed wire on the beach led to hundreds (if not thousands) of dead Allied soldiers.

426 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:50:50pm

re: #420 windsagio

IF responding to someone that’s responding to a misunderstanding, is it appropriate to correct the misunderstanding, especially if it has some bearing on the response?

uh

427 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:51:11pm

re: #426 cliffster

uh

haha I Love writing posts like that.

428 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:51:29pm

re: #425 Max D. Reinhardt

>> WW2 is almost cheating, nobody’s gonna criticize that ;)

429 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:52:10pm

re: #425 Max D. Reinhardt

Military operations today must exist in a world with speed of light information travel worldwide.

Indeed, if the roll out of modern communications remains unabated from what it has been, it is like that soon no military in the world will be able to conduct an operation anywhere without everyone finding out about it quickly.

430 mr. hammer  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:52:35pm

re: #416 mr. hammer

In addition, if you get a decent Yamaha or equal, and then later decide that the guitar is not your thing, you can always easily unload it on Ebay and get most of your money back.

431 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:52:49pm

re: #420 windsagio

IF responding to someone that’s responding to a misunderstanding, is it appropriate to correct the misunderstanding, especially if it has some bearing on the response?

You understand? You understand Tony… cause… diss is importance to understand so yous don’t makes the same sort of mistake ya good old dad made… capisci?

432 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:52:51pm

re: #428 windsagio

>> WW2 is almost cheating, nobody’s gonna criticize that ;)

So we’ve agreed now that lying is ok for some wars, just not others?

433 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:53:08pm

Don’t know the source, but here…
goofigure.com

434 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:53:51pm

re: #429 freetoken

Military operations today must exist in a world with speed of light information travel worldwide.

Indeed, if the roll out of modern communications remains unabated from what it has been, it is like that soon no military in the world will be able to conduct an operation anywhere without everyone finding out about it quickly.

That’s why the government needs control of the internet //
At least that’s what most despotic regimes agree on.

435 prairiefire  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:54:46pm

Senator Claire McCaskill from MO is kicking ass about the Arlington Cemetery fiasco.news.yahoo.com

436 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:55:12pm

re: #434 BryanS

No kidding. It is now become clear to any petty dictator that if he doesn’t control the internet in his domain then he will have a whole lot less secrets than he would wish.

437 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:55:38pm

re: #425 Max D. Reinhardt

A good point I want to make: if we judged D-Day by today’s standards it might be considered a disastrous victory, like the second Battle of Fallujah.

The hundreds dead in training exercises and the bad intel about German trenches and barbed wire on the beach led to hundreds (if not thousands) of dead Allied soldiers.

Very true. But back then the disparity of ability between America and our enemies was much smaller. The best Germany infantry units were equal (if not actually better) man-for-man than their American counterparts,though the crushing firepower superiority of the US (especially in artillery) gave us the edge.

438 Max  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:55:47pm

re: #428 windsagio

What shields WWII from criticism could easily parallel to Fallujah or Iraq in general.

- Both are “Good v. Evil” conflicts
- Both undoubtedly shaped their own century (to be premature)
- Both involve free forces v. totalitarians
- In both conflicts we face genocidal maniacs
- In both conflicts we combated a dangerous political ideology (Nazism and Qutbist Islamism)

etc…

439 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:55:56pm

re: #432 BryanS

No, but I know a losing fight when I see one :p

My position would be that I understand that lying happens sometimes, but I’ll never be happy with it. More importantly, the military/gov’t will always insist that a particular lie was necessary, whatever the real reason behind it (like the hideousness of US v Reynolds).

Even further, everyone will eventually find some level where they feel a lie was ‘acceptable’ or at least ‘necessary’. The mistake is in somehow thinking that justifies the lies on the other side of that line.

440 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:56:22pm

re: #429 freetoken

Military operations today must exist in a world with speed of light information travel worldwide.

Indeed, if the roll out of modern communications remains unabated from what it has been, it is like that soon no military in the world will be able to conduct an operation anywhere without everyone finding out about it quickly.

you make a good point, I guess that is where shock & awe came from… well you know it’s coming too bad you can’t do shit about it.

441 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:56:28pm

re: #425 Max D. Reinhardt

A good point I want to make: if we judged D-Day by today’s standards it might be considered a disastrous victory, like the second Battle of Fallujah.

The hundreds dead in training exercises and the bad intel about German trenches and barbed wire on the beach led to hundreds (if not thousands) of dead Allied soldiers.

Cough…My Son Fought in the second battle of Fallujah…You say it was disastrous battle..BS.
Have you heard one single thing about Fallujah since then? One effen thing?
The 2/5th and 3/5th Marines put down that City..I know what was going on with Sat calls at 3am every night and Pictures he sent us..
You don’t know Shit and never post that crap again..
Damn it!

442 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:56:33pm

re: #436 freetoken

No kidding. It is now become clear to any petty dictator that if he doesn’t control the internet in his domain then he will have a whole lot less secrets than he would wish.

Twitter: the modern regime’s worst nightmare.

443 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:56:39pm

re: #438 Max D. Reinhardt

What shields WWII from criticism could easily parallel to Fallujah or Iraq in general.

- Both are “Good v. Evil” conflicts
- Both undoubtedly shaped their own century (to be premature)
- Both involve free forces v. totalitarians
- In both conflicts we face genocidal maniacs
- In both conflicts we combated a dangerous political ideology (Nazism and Qutbist Islamism)

etc…

You lost me at several points…

Speaking of the effects of propaganda.

444 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:57:01pm

re: #438 Max D. Reinhardt

What shields WWII from criticism could easily parallel to Fallujah or Iraq in general.

- Both are “Good v. Evil” conflicts
- Both undoubtedly shaped their own century (to be premature)
- Both involve free forces v. totalitarians
- In both conflicts we face genocidal maniacs
- In both conflicts we combated a dangerous political ideology (Nazism and Qutbist Islamism)

etc…

Except that in WW2 it was A LOT f***ing easier to tell if we were winning based on territory gains, when we won something it either stayed won or they had to take it back from us…

445 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:57:09pm

I see that Lew Rockwell is now publishing articles by James Delingpole (one of the favorite UK writers of the now banned Bagua).

The UK energy minister dared to actually speak the truth. Some people just don’t like the truth.

446 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:57:37pm

re: #444 jamesfirecat

Not to mention the whole ‘secularist government but we call it islamist because Islam is evil’ thing.

447 justaminute  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:57:49pm

re: #400 eclectic infidel

I’ve been to the CIA in SF. One of our food suppliers, Cisco, took us there and I was very impressed. The students were fun and kinda nervous having 200 restaurant owners to serve lunch too. If you asked them any questions they acted like we were giving them a pop quiz. But we made it up to them by clapping when they made such a production of using a torch in each hand when they were make creme brulee. Then we were off to wine country to tour the vineyards. Good times.

448 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:58:00pm

re: #441 HoosierHoops

We told the civilians to get out so we could finish off the bastards. Thank your son for me.

449 Max  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:58:22pm

re: #437 Dark_Falcon

Very true. But back then the disparity of ability between America and our enemies was much smaller. The best Germany infantry units were equal (if not actually better) man-for-man than their American counterparts,though the crushing firepower superiority of the US (especially in artillery) gave us the edge.

In artillery? I thought the Flak-88s, Screaming MiMis, and Tigers trounced the Allies’ Howizters and Sherman tanks.

450 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:58:38pm

re: #441 HoosierHoops

Cough…My Son Fought in the second battle of Fallujah…You say it was disastrous battle..BS.
Have you heard one single thing about Fallujah since then? One effen thing?
The 2/5th and 3/5th Marines put down that City..I know what was going on with Sat calls at 3am every night and Pictures he sent us..
You don’t know Shit and never post that crap again..
Damn it!

damn max, you got knocked the fuck out

451 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:58:41pm

re: #447 justaminute

Sysco.

452 prairiefire  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:58:49pm

re: #441 HoosierHoops

I know, right? I have never heard of it being described as a disastrous victory. The insurgency was of a different piece all together.

453 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:59:15pm

re: #436 freetoken

No kidding. It is now become clear to any petty dictator that if he doesn’t control the internet in his domain then he will have a whole lot less secrets than he would wish.

Here’s hoping projects like tor can help keep people one step ahead of those regimes. I followed a number of the Iranian twitterers a year ago when the first violence broke out. It was fun to read about Chinese dissidents assisting Iranian protesters with communication using tor and other tools.

454 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:00:26pm

re: #449 Max D. Reinhardt

In artillery? I thought the Flak-88s, Screaming MiMis, and Tigers trounced the Allies’ Howizters and Sherman tanks.

The Tigers were better than the Shermans on a tank to tank, basis but I don’t have the numbers for who had more tanks and by what kind of margins.

Also I’d be willing to bet that Air Power would be ruinously in favor of the allies by the time Normandy rolled around…

455 Stanley Sea  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:00:32pm

Ah Tim Gunn is back!

See ya!

456 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:01:02pm

re: #449 Max D. Reinhardt

In artillery? I thought the Flak-88s, Screaming MiMis, and Tigers trounced the Allies’ Howizters and Sherman tanks.

then why are we speaking English?

457 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:01:03pm

re: #449 Max D. Reinhardt

In artillery? I thought the Flak-88s, Screaming MiMis, and Tigers trounced the Allies’ Howizters and Sherman tanks.

Not that you mythologize WW2 or anything.

458 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:01:28pm

re: #437 Dark_Falcon

Very true. But back then the disparity of ability between America and our enemies was much smaller. The best Germany infantry units were equal (if not actually better) man-for-man than their American counterparts,though the crushing firepower superiority of the US (especially in artillery) gave us the edge.

It was so nice of the Americans to save the British, Canadian, Australian, Russian, and others who were using slings and hand axes.

You didn’t do it alone.

Why do Americans always sound like they believe they were the Cavalry riding over the hill and saving everyone?

459 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:02:09pm

re: #448 Cannadian Club Akbar

We told the civilians to get out so we could finish off the bastards. Thank your son for me.

I saw the effen pictures of terrorists using woman and children as human shields..They all died..It really bothered alot of Marines killing children..
I know that as a fact…I will never forgive those bastards for what our Marines had to go through to fight them…
Hey anybody heard about Fallujah since then?
Didn’t effen think so…We won..They lost…

460 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:02:18pm

re: #458 b_sharp

Why do Americans always sound like they believe they were the Cavalry riding over the hill and saving everyone?

because we were.

461 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:02:54pm

re: #458 b_sharp

It was so nice of the Americans to save the British, Canadian, Australian, Russian, and others who were using slings and hand axes.

You didn’t do it alone.

Why do Americans always sound like they believe they were the Cavalry riding over the hill and saving everyone?

Because we don’t want to face the fact that for every American dead there were… I don’t know… 50 or so dead Russians last time I checked?

Makes us feel important.

Britain brought the time, Russian brought the blood and the US brought the steel.

462 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:03:11pm

re: #459 HoosierHoops

Terrorist are pussies.

463 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:03:20pm

re: #458 b_sharp

It was so nice of the Americans to save the British, Canadian, Australian, Russian, and others who were using slings and hand axes.

You didn’t do it alone.

Why do Americans always sound like they believe they were the Cavalry riding over the hill and saving everyone?

/I noticed you left out the French :)

464 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:03:36pm

re: #461 jamesfirecat

WWI was even worse for that really, but we like good stories of heroism :)

465 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:04:41pm

re: #464 windsagio

WWI was even worse for that really, but we like good stories of heroism :)

My story begins in the 12th century…

466 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:04:45pm

re: #439 windsagio

No, but I know a losing fight when I see one :p

My position would be that I understand that lying happens sometimes, but I’ll never be happy with it. More importantly, the military/gov’t will always insist that a particular lie was necessary, whatever the real reason behind it (like the hideousness of US v Reynolds).

Even further, everyone will eventually find some level where they feel a lie was ‘acceptable’ or at least ‘necessary’. The mistake is in somehow thinking that justifies the lies on the other side of that line.

As I say, it’s not always cut and dry. Was the Tillman “coverup” designed to hide wrong doing or to provide a rally cry story? Imagine if —which UK prince was it—say he fought and was killed by friendly fire. I would expect the story to be that he died guns ablazin’. Tillman was a known quantity before going into the military . I think the “coverup” was along the lines of trying to create a hero story to rally the public rather than a coverup designed to mask wrongdoing.

467 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:05:28pm

re: #464 windsagio

WWI was even worse for that really, but we like good stories of heroism :)

Meh, WWI we can be reasonably proud of ourselves for at least being prudent/coldly calculating/whatever you care to call it

Everyone else had more or less fought themselves to a really bloody stand still so when the doughboys showed up there was no question that we were the straw that broke the camel’s back….

At least that’s been my understanding of how things went down…

468 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:06:02pm

I have asked this before and will ask again. (an some others stole my question) What would the ME look like if Iran was making the bomb and Saddam was in power. That’s what I thought.

469 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:06:39pm

Tancredo is now the official candidate of the American Conservative Party of CO, for governor:

Today is a great day for the people of Colorado as we, the American Constitution Party, Colorado’s affiliate of the Constitution Party, the nation’s largest third party, welcome a good friend and great conservative to our ranks. Congressman Tom Tancredo has found a home in our organization and joins with the likes of other political luminaries whose parties have abandoned the principles on which this great nation was founded. In the American Constitution Party, Congressman Tancredo has a base from which to provide support for his American ethic and the encouragement to bring those ideals to the political arena. He gives to Colorado voters a real choice to return to the founding principles that allowed our nation to become the greatest engine for freedom and prosperity the world has ever seen. We are pleased to have Tom Tancredo run for the office of governor on our ticket.

They are the affiliate to the Constitution Party, home of hard theocratic right-wingers.

470 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:06:49pm

re: #468 Cannadian Club Akbar

I have asked this before and will ask again. (an some others stole my question) What would the ME look like if Iran was making the bomb and Saddam was in power. That’s what I thought.

Image: parking_lot_001.jpg

471 Max  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:06:51pm

re: #459 HoosierHoops

I’m sorry. I never meant any disrespect. We did win Fallujah, and I am sincerely sorry if I made you or anyone else think otherwise.

472 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:07:37pm

re: #460 cliffster

because we were.

Really?

The Americans added men and equipment to a large powerful force already in existence.

473 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:07:48pm

re: #470 Varek Raith

Image: parking_lot_001.jpg

That ain’t glass!! I was promised glass!!
/

474 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:08:39pm

re: #468 Cannadian Club Akbar

I have asked this before and will ask again. (an some others stole my question) What would the ME look like if Iran was making the bomb and Saddam was in power. That’s what I thought.

well if you want to speculate Saddam would have had his bomb already …

475 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:08:50pm

re: #463 brookly red

/I noticed you left out the French :)

The French were there, they had over 1,200,000 soldiers by the end of the war.

Contrary to current popular opinion, the F

476 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:09:00pm

re: #468 Cannadian Club Akbar

I have asked this before and will ask again. (an some others stole my question) What would the ME look like if Iran was making the bomb and Saddam was in power. That’s what I thought.

Well, Iran is making the bomb. We’ll find out that part of your question soon enough.

477 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:09:29pm

re: #469 freetoken

Tancredo is now the official candidate of the American Conservative Party of CO, for governor:

They are the affiliate to the Constitution Party, home of hard theocratic right-wingers.

Tancredo is such a tool.

478 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:09:30pm

re: #476 BryanS

Well, Iran is making the bomb. We’ll find out that part of your question soon enough.

No. Israel will.

479 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:10:14pm

The other interesting political news of the evening comes from NY, where a Republican candidate found himself in public embarrassment:

McMahon fires ‘Jewish money’ aide

Staten Island Rep. Mike McMahon (D-NY) moved into damage-control mode Thursday, firing the communications director for his re-election bid Thursday night after she gave a reporter a breakdown of a Republican rival’s “Jewish money” contributions.

McMahon announced he was firing spokeswoman Jennifer Nelson after she provided a New York Observer reporter with a breakdown of Republican rival Michael Grimm’s second-quarter financial haul donations from Jewish donors, in an apparent effort to show the former FBI agent has little financial support within the district.

In an astonishing move - putting such a statement on paper - the file the reporter was given was titled “Grimm Jewish Money Q2.”

“Where is Grimm’s money coming from,” Nelson was quoted saying to the Observer. “There is a lot of Jewish money, a lot of money from people in Florida and Manhattan, retirees.”

Must be the same folk funding LGF, eh?

480 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:10:17pm

Just heard on the Alan Colmes radio show that on the Huckabee show, Tim LaHaye, the fundy evangelical stated that Obama’s polices are bringing us close to the apocalypse, because of “raw socialism.”

481 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:10:46pm

re: #480 eclectic infidel

There was an LGF entry on this, I think… look at the front page.

482 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:10:46pm

re: #474 brookly red

well if you want to speculate Saddam would have had his bomb already …

If Israel didn’t bomb Osirak, yes.

483 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:11:10pm

re: #480 eclectic infidel

Just heard on the Alan Colmes radio show that on the Huckabee show, Tim LaHaye, the fundy evangelical stated that Obama’s polices are bringing us close to the apocalypse, because of “raw socialism.”

I want slightly cooked socialism. With pasta.
/

484 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:11:28pm

re: #475 b_sharp

The French were there, they had over 1,200,000 soldiers by the end of the war.

Contrary to current popular opinion, the French were not gutless. While part of the government was whimpering, de Gaulle was fighting.

485 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:11:39pm

re: #475 b_sharp

The French were there, they had over 1,200,000 soldiers by the end of the war.

Contrary to current popular opinion, the F

the F what? sharp? sharp?

Damn! spontaneous human combustion! hate when that happens…

486 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:11:45pm

re: #483 Cannadian Club Akbar

I want slightly cooked socialism. With pasta.
/

Forget that!
I want a pizza!
WITH NO PINEAPPLE!

487 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:12:01pm

re: #484 b_sharp

Oh there you are…

488 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:12:16pm

re: #449 Max D. Reinhardt

In artillery? I thought the Flak-88s, Screaming MiMis, and Tigers trounced the Allies’ Howizters and Sherman tanks.

Actually, no. The Tiger had better armor and a better gun, but the Sherman more mobile, more reliable, and far more numerous. As for artillery, the US had guns equal to or better than their German counterparts (except for rockets, which the Germans did have an edge in), but we had more of them and our artillery coordination was far better.

489 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:12:18pm

re: #486 Varek Raith

Forget that!
I want a pizza!
WITH NO PINEAPPLE!

I love you, Man!!

490 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:12:40pm

re: #485 brookly red

the F what? sharp? sharp?

Damn! spontaneous human combustion! hate when that happens…

My little finger hits the ctrl key instead of the shift key sometimes.

491 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:12:53pm

re: #471 Max D. Reinhardt

I’m sorry. I never meant any disrespect. We did win Fallujah, and I am sincerely sorry if I made you or anyone else think otherwise.

I’m sorry too Max…My BP rose a thousand points…Fallujah is a sore point cause when First Platoon came home All the parents got together in Oceanside for a reunion and the kids told stories and showed pictures on their password protected thumb drives…I’m sorry my son will live with those images his whole life..It hurts me.. Not that he killed terrorists but they had to kill women and babies during war…Sorry to snap on you

492 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:13:08pm

re: #483 Cannadian Club Akbar

I want slightly cooked socialism. With pasta.
/

Commie al Dante…

493 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:13:18pm

Yep.

494 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:13:19pm

re: #479 freetoken

The other interesting political news of the evening comes from NY, where a Republican candidate found himself in public embarrassment:

McMahon fires ‘Jewish money’ aide

Must be the same folk funding LGF, eh?

You got your politics backwards. It was the Dem who was embarrassed as the article you quote points out. It was the Dem who accused the Repub of having too much “Jewish money”

495 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:13:38pm

re: #490 b_sharp

My little finger hits the ctrl key instead of the shift key sometimes.

I just love games that make extensive use of the “Control” and “Alt” keys…
/
9_9

496 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:13:58pm

re: #486 Varek Raith

Forget that!
I want a pizza!
WITH NO PINEAPPLE!

and no socialism, buy your own f’in pie!

497 justaminute  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:14:05pm

re: #468 Cannadian Club Akbar

I have asked this before and will ask again. (an some others stole my question) What would the ME look like if Iran was making the bomb and Saddam was in power. That’s what I thought.

Since we playing what if, does the US still have a no-fly-zone?

498 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:14:08pm

re: #493 Gus 802

Yep.

42.
Sup?

499 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:14:50pm

re: #497 justaminute

Since we playing what if, does the US still have a no-fly-zone?

Me think no.

500 Stonemason  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:14:57pm

re: #479 freetoken

Uhhh, (D-NY) means the anti-semite is a Democrat.

501 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:15:14pm

re: #498 Varek Raith

42.
Sup?

Took a 5 hour nap. Drinking some coffee and just nommed up a 79 cent pecan pie. Yourself?

502 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:15:19pm

re: #486 Varek Raith

Forget that!
I want a pizza!
WITH NO PINEAPPLE!

I agree…. but a neighbor brought over a half of a Papa John’s Hawaiian pizza the other day and I chomped it.

503 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:15:40pm

re: #490 b_sharp

My little finger hits the ctrl key instead of the shift key sometimes.

you scared me dude… people disappear when talking to me it creeps me out.

504 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:15:42pm

re: #497 justaminute

Since we playing what if, does the US still have a no-fly-zone?

But then again we had one for years and the UN did nothing about it.

505 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:16:10pm

re: #491 HoosierHoops

I’m sorry too Max…My BP rose a thousand points…Fallujah is a sore point cause when First Platoon came home All the parents got together in Oceanside for a reunion and the kids told stories and showed pictures on their password protected thumb drives…I’m sorry my son will live with those images his whole life..It hurts me.. Not that he killed terrorists but they had to kill women and babies during war…Sorry to snap on you

If that was snapping, then your snaps are more pleasant than my best compliments.

506 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:16:42pm

re: #502 Mr Pancakes

I agree… but a neighbor brought over a half of a Papa John’s Hawaiian pizza the other day and I chomped it.

NO FUCKING PINEAPPLE ON PIZZA!!.

507 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:16:52pm

re: #501 Gus 802

Took a 5 hour nap. Drinking some coffee and just nommed up a 79 cent pecan pie. Yourself?

Encoding an anime dvd rip that refuses to encode.
Great fun that.

508 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:17:34pm

re: #490 b_sharp

My little finger hits the ctrl key instead of the shift key sometimes.

my little finger hits the “I hate you, you fucking bastard! ” key sometimes. I hate when that happens.

509 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:17:48pm

re: #507 Varek Raith

Encoding an anime dvd rip that refuses to encode.
Great fun that.

Work or play? Work’s a good thing. I read about it in history books.

510 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:18:04pm

re: #506 Cannadian Club Akbar

NO FUCKING PINEAPPLE ON PIZZA!!.

Oh I agree….. wholeheartedly

I still chomped it.

511 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:18:07pm

re: #475 b_sharp

The French were there, they had over 1,200,000 soldiers by the end of the war.

Contrary to current popular opinion, the F

Heck, the French 2nd Armored Division was one of Patton’s favorite units. Major General Philippe Lecerc’s aggressive style of mobile warfare made him an excellent fit in 3rd Army. It helped that both Patton and XIV’s Corps’ commander, Major General Wade Haslip, were Francophiles and Haslip could speak the language fluently.

512 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:18:29pm

re: #506 Cannadian Club Akbar

NO FUCKING PINEAPPLE ON PIZZA!!.

it’s OK… Papa John’s ain’t pizza.

513 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:18:55pm

re: #508 cliffster

my little finger hits the “I hate you, you fucking bastard! ” key sometimes. I hate when that happens.

I hate you, you fucking bastard.
Oops..
/

514 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:18:56pm

re: #512 brookly red

it’s OK… Papa John’s ain’t pizza.

Hahhahaaa

515 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:19:27pm

re: #511 Dark_Falcon

Not only that, but they gave us the statue of liberty. And I’ve been shitting on them all this time. I feel bad.

516 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:19:33pm

re: #509 Gus 802

Work or play? Work’s a good thing. I read about it in history books.

Play.
I finally have a hard drive big enough.
Work, on the other hand, has been slow. Few customers mean poor hours for me. I now have a 5 day weekend starting tomorrow.
Sigh.
:)

517 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:19:45pm

re: #512 brookly red

it’s OK… Papa John’s ain’t pizza.

I’ll eat cardboard first.

518 Max  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:20:07pm

re: #491 HoosierHoops

I’m sorry too Max…My BP rose a thousand points…Fallujah is a sore point cause when First Platoon came home All the parents got together in Oceanside for a reunion and the kids told stories and showed pictures on their password protected thumb drives…I’m sorry my son will live with those images his whole life..It hurts me.. Not that he killed terrorists but they had to kill women and babies during war…Sorry to snap on you

I’m sorry I minced words on a very important and emotional subject, just to make my point. That wasn’t cool.

I should have said that both Overlord and Fallujah were costly battles.

Fallujah is really when I started paying attention to the Iraq War. When I heard what the terrorists did (human shields, torture, et al) to civilians and then saw the moonbats calling our troops “assassins” and other horrible names, that not only made me realize what we were fighting against, it made me a staunch defender of our troops against the loony left’s character assassinations.

519 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:20:08pm

Hey gang. Just got back from a week at Disney with friends, The Fam and a gaggle of children. Was fun and H O T~!~ Was also really good to be news-free for a week.

Meanwhile, just lurking and looking for a spot to jump in and dazzle you with my awesome political knowledge skillz.

520 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:20:14pm

re: #503 brookly red

you scared me dude… people disappear when talking to me it creeps me out.

They’re not disappearing. They’re walking away.

Couldn’t resist. I owed you one.

521 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:20:16pm

re: #517 Cannadian Club Akbar

I’ll eat cardboard first.

DAMN STRAIGHT!

522 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:20:41pm

re: #517 Cannadian Club Akbar

I’ll eat cardboard first.

more fiber & less salt…

523 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:21:21pm

re: #520 tnguitarist

They’re not disappearing. They’re walking away.

Couldn’t resist. I owed you one.

touche

524 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:21:40pm

re: #519 marjoriemoon

you were an hour from me. You didn’t wave hello.
///

525 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:21:42pm

re: #515 cliffster

Not only that, but they gave us the statue of liberty. And I’ve been shitting on them all this time. I feel bad.

The French have some serious problem with us, and we with them. But they are not really the losers they often get labeled as and Sarkozy is making a heroic effort to turn things around over there.

526 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:21:49pm

re: #523 brookly red

touche

Whoa, not in front of the kids!

527 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:22:00pm

re: #517 Cannadian Club Akbar

I’ll eat cardboard first.

Virgin cardboard is preferable — unbleached. Some people prefer the free range cardboard but I think it tastes a little gamey.

528 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:22:45pm

re: #525 Dark_Falcon

The French have some serious problem with us, and we with them. But they are not really the losers they often get labeled as and Sarkozy is making a heroic effort to turn things around over there.

That he is.. good man.

And you know what else? The girls are HOT.

529 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:23:26pm

re: #526 Varek Raith

Whoa, not in front of the kids!

I don’t have any kids… I caught them eating pineapple pizza.

530 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:23:41pm

re: #527 Gus 802

Virgin cardboard is preferable — unbleached. Some people prefer the free range cardboard but I think it tastes a little gamey.

I like my coffee the way I like my women.. ground up and in the freezer!!
/

531 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:24:17pm

re: #524 Cannadian Club Akbar

you were an hour from me. You didn’t wave hello.
///

No way… If I’d only have known! Did you get rain?

532 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:24:20pm

re: #529 brookly red

I don’t have any kids… I caught them eating pineapple pizza.

Pizza snob!

533 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:24:56pm

re: #525 Dark_Falcon

The French have some serious problem with us, and we with them. But they are not really the losers they often get labeled as and Sarkozy is making a heroic effort to turn things around over there.

Too bad really that Sarkozy and Obama don’t seem to get along. It’s been a while since there was an America-phile leader of France.

534 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:25:27pm

re: #531 marjoriemoon

No way… If I’d only have known! Did you get rain?

No. Losta lightning. Kept me from smoking at work. ( outside)

535 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:25:33pm

re: #532 Mr Pancakes

Pizza snob!

that is Lord high Faith Keeper to you peasant.

536 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:26:07pm

re: #534 Cannadian Club Akbar

No. Losta lightning. Kept me from smoking at work. ( outside)

Never kept me from smoking.
Sissy.

537 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:26:25pm

re: #532 Mr Pancakes

Pizza snob!

Oh yeah?
I’ll show you!
*Parachutes off of high horse*

538 justaminute  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:26:26pm

re: #504 Cannadian Club Akbar

But then again we had one for years and the UN did nothing about it.

We also had an embargo and that food-for-oil and inspections. But that did not really mean that much to the Bush Adm. did it? We came, we saw, and we conquered all. Now Iraqi’s name their first born children after us. All the little Ali America’s. War in Iraq, war in Afghanistan.. why won’t those dumb Iranian’s listen to us?

539 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:26:56pm

re: #536 reine.de.tout

Never kept me from smoking.
Sissy.

Use the lightening to light up the cigarette.

540 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:27:23pm

re: #536 reine.de.tout

Never kept me from smoking.
Sissy.

Oh, snap!

541 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:27:27pm

re: #533 BryanS

Too bad really that Sarkozy and Obama don’t seem to get along. It’s been a while since there was an America-phile leader of France.

Yeah, its a pity.

542 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:27:46pm

re: #538 justaminute

We also had an embargo and that food-for-oil and inspections. But that did not really mean that much to the Bush Adm. did it? We came, we saw, and we conquered all. Now Iraqi’s name their first born children after us. All the little Ali America’s. War in Iraq, war in Afghanistan.. why won’t those dumb Iranian’s listen to us?

I never said anyone was dumb.

543 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:28:24pm

re: #539 Gus 802

Use the lightening to light up the cigarette.

re: #540 Varek Raith

Oh, snap!

Just shut up!!

544 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:28:38pm

re: #536 reine.de.tout

Never kept me from smoking.
Sissy.

Lightning never stopped me either….. not much did…. until they raised the price. Cigarette free for a year and a half now.

545 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:28:57pm

re: #534 Cannadian Club Akbar

No. Losta lightning. Kept me from smoking at work. ( outside)

You are in the Lightening Capital after all. The Fam is from California and are always impressed they don’t have to bring lotion when they visit. How’s that for a positive spin on humidity?

546 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:29:33pm

re: #536 reine.de.tout

Never kept me from smoking.
Sissy.

oh, good idea lemmie twist one up & maybe it will make the eggplant settle…

547 justaminute  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:29:42pm

re: #542 Cannadian Club Akbar

My bad, no you didn’t.

548 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:29:47pm

re: #538 justaminute

We also had an embargo and that food-for-oil and inspections. But that did not really mean that much to the Bush Adm. did it? We came, we saw, and we conquered all. Now Iraqi’s name their first born children after us. All the little Ali America’s. War in Iraq, war in Afghanistan.. why won’t those dumb Iranian’s listen to us?

And the support for those sanctions was failing. We weren’t going to be able to keep Saddam in a box for too much longer. That, I think, was one of the factors driving the decision to remove him, though it was not a stated reason.

549 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:29:49pm

re: #545 marjoriemoon

You are in the Lightening Capital after all. The Fam is from California and are always impressed they don’t have to bring lotion when they visit. How’s that for a positive spin on humidity?

We were but I think Brazil took over.

550 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:29:50pm

re: #535 brookly red

that is Lord high Faith Keeper to you peasant.

Hey Red..I ate a pizza an hour ago in my hotel room..
Extra Veggies and extra Pineapples..No meat…
Yummy…
/What’s that sound? Is that incoming mortar fire From NY? Oh well..
I like the Red Sox also….
Heading to the bomb shelter now
//

551 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:30:30pm

re: #550 HoosierHoops

Hey Red..I ate a pizza an hour ago in my hotel room..
Extra Veggies and extra Pineapples..No meat…
Yummy…

//

Uh oh…..

552 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:30:56pm

re: #549 Cannadian Club Akbar

We were but I think Brazil took over.

I thought they were the Murder Capital. Dern feriners.

553 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:31:03pm

re: #547 justaminute

My bad, no you didn’t.

Cool. I’m gonna end up at your restaurant and Hoops couch. It’s all good!!
//

554 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:31:04pm

Hey all… It’s been a busy day. How goes it?

555 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:31:45pm

re: #554 LudwigVanQuixote

Hey all… It’s been a busy day. How goes it?

Funzy tonight!!

556 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:31:48pm

re: #544 Mr Pancakes

Lightning never stopped me either… not much did… until they raised the price. Cigarette free for a year and a half now.

good for you!
i keep trying to quit, and keep trying, and keep trying …

557 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:31:55pm

re: #538 justaminute

We also had an embargo and that food-for-oil and inspections. But that did not really mean that much to the Bush Adm. did it? We came, we saw, and we conquered all. Now Iraqi’s name their first born children after us. All the little Ali America’s. War in Iraq, war in Afghanistan.. why won’t those dumb Iranian’s listen to us?

We didn’t really have “the oil embargo” since it was flouted with wild abandon by almost everyone. And the no fly zones were very expensive to maintain and had waining international support. That’s not to say invading Iraq was a great decision—just that things weren’t so stable before the decision to do so.

558 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:31:57pm

re: #554 LudwigVanQuixote

Hey all… It’s been a busy day. How goes it?

HIT THE DECK!!!
HH just bragged about a pizza with pineapple toppings!

559 Max  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:32:32pm

re: #554 LudwigVanQuixote

Hey Ludwig, wassup buddy? We got pizza!!

560 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:32:47pm

re: #550 HoosierHoops

Hey Red..I ate a pizza an hour ago in my hotel room..
Extra Veggies and extra Pineapples..No meat…
Yummy…
/What’s that sound? Is that incoming mortar fire From NY? Oh well..
I like the Red Sox also…
Heading to the bomb shelter now
//

some day I will have your soul & there will be tofu burgers, powerpoint presentations, and Cher muzak till hell freezes over… :)

561 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:33:06pm

re: #556 reine.de.tout

good for you!
i keep trying to quit, and keep trying, and keep trying …

If you quit quitting, doesn’t that mean you quit?
/

562 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:33:15pm

re: #556 reine.de.tout

good for you!
i keep trying to quit, and keep trying, and keep trying …

I feel for you…….. It’s hard.

563 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:33:50pm

re: #560 brookly red

some day I will have your soul & there will be tofu burgers, powerpoint presentations, and Cher muzak till hell freezes over… :)

i will keel you!!
//

564 justaminute  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:34:02pm

re: #548 Dark_Falcon

And the support for those sanctions was failing. We weren’t going to be able to keep Saddam in a box for too much longer. That, I think, was one of the factors driving the decision to remove him, though it was not a stated reason.

Maybe we should have just offered him money to leave an go to Somalia. Did he ask for some millions and we rejected that? I don’t know and don’t care. Too much blood under the bridge now.

565 Kruk  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:35:09pm

It seems that while the wingnuts might not like the 14th Amendment, they are rather fond of the 13th. Not that trifling 13th Amendment that bans slavery, but the *real* 13th Amendment.

huffingtonpost.com

Yeah, the fact that the part of the Constitution that they want altered is the one that outlawed slavery. Pure coincidence, naturally.

566 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:35:26pm

re: #556 reine.de.tout

good for you!
i keep trying to quit, and keep trying, and keep trying …

{{Reine}}

I’m in the same boat :(

567 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:37:21pm

re: #560 brookly red

some day I will have your soul & there will be tofu burgers, powerpoint presentations, and Cher muzak till hell freezes over… :)

I heard a comedian ask once…
What kind of world do we live in when they shoot John Lennon in the back and let Barry Manilow live?
//

568 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:38:24pm

re: #567 HoosierHoops

I heard a comedian ask once…
What kind of world do we live in when they shoot John Lennon in the back and let Barry Manilow live?
//

IIRC he was shot in the chest…

569 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:38:30pm

re: #565 Kruk

Yup, it’s another one of those things that emerged from the Iowa GOP platform process last month. It’s full of goodies.

570 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:38:50pm

you don’t need a parachute to skydive… you need a parachute to skydive twice

571 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:39:31pm

Surprised to find out Maury Chaykin died Tuesday. He wasn’t that old.

Was on many TV series:

Youtube Video

572 Kruk  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:40:54pm

re: #570 cliffster

you don’t need a parachute to skydive… you need a parachute to skydive twice

Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory.

573 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:41:39pm

re: #572 Kruk

Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory.

Unless you’re in geosynchronous orbit.

574 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:42:04pm

re: #572 Kruk

Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory.

unless of course you do the Bermuda triangle…

575 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:42:25pm

All righty kiddies, time for eats and bed. Nighty all.

576 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:42:38pm

re: #571 freetoken

Surprised to find out Maury Chaykin died Tuesday. He wasn’t that old.

Was on many TV series:


[Video]

Here’s a good site if you want to see who died during the week……. they usually don’t miss anyone slightly famous.

577 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:44:02pm

Will you look at that. Turns out that face on Mars was just a rocky hill. Well I’ll be darned. Glad they cleared that up.

578 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:44:13pm

re: #571 freetoken

Surprised to find out Maury Chaykin died Tuesday. He wasn’t that old.

Was on many TV series:


[Video]

:(

Maury Chaykin died in Toronto on July 27, 2010 — his 61st birthday — from complications of a heart valve infection.
579 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:44:18pm

anybody like to take a question out of left field?

one of my conservative correspondents write to me:

health care bill will be to terminate almost all current employer based insurance plans. No one, but no one, is disputing that.

???

why would they say that?

since the bill actually mandates that all employers over a certain (rather small) size provide their employees with health insurance, and provides subsidies for it, the opposite would seem to be the case

580 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:45:11pm

re: #565 Kruk

It seems that while the wingnuts might not like the 14th Amendment, they are rather fond of the 13th. Not that trifling 13th Amendment that bans slavery, but the *real* 13th Amendment.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com…]

Yeah, the fact that the part of the Constitution that they want altered is the one that outlawed slavery. Pure coincidence, naturally.

They actually don’t want the recognized 13th Amendment removed, they want the ‘original 13th’ added. They are wrong of course: Faulty history + ODS = Bad Craziness.

581 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:45:21pm

re: #548 Dark_Falcon

And the support for those sanctions was failing. We weren’t going to be able to keep Saddam in a box for too much longer. That, I think, was one of the factors driving the decision to remove him, though it was not a stated reason.

I don’t think there’s any proof of that, that the sanctions were failing. We certainly didn’t find evidence of him acquiring nukes when we invaded and during the 12 odd years of inspections, they weren’t sure what he had. He lied, he falsified records, sent them on wild goose chases. In 1999, 2000, the inspectors were saying it was a 50/50 chance. I’ve mentioned this before, but a grave concern was that they couldn’t find the toxic waste. We now know why.

David Kay headed the UN inspections. He was also on the Bush payroll. All of a sudden, he’s confirming WMDs. In this Slate article, he admits he puffed up his reports to make Hussein look worse than he was. But if you had been following any of it prior to 2003, it’s not a surprise to learn it. Anyway, Kay is a rotten apple in my book.

582 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:46:29pm

re: #579 engineer dog

anybody like to take a question out of left field?

one of my conservative correspondents write to me:

health care bill will be to terminate almost all current employer based insurance plans. No one, but no one, is disputing that.

???

why would they say that?

since the bill actually mandates that all employers over a certain (rather small) size provide their employees with health insurance, and provides subsidies for it, the opposite would seem to be the case

well the way I heard it is that the mandated fine for not providing coverage will be a small fraction of the cost of coverage…

583 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:46:38pm

Breaking news!

Snooki goes out for a stroll!

Image: article-0-0A9FE154000005DC-366_468x575.jpg

584 TheMatrix31  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:47:12pm

abclocal.go.com

What I wanna know is, what the fuck are these morons still protesting for?! WHAT IS THERE TO PROTEST ABOUT. Jeez.

Causing all this trouble for NO reason.

585 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:47:49pm

re: #583 Gus 802

Breaking news!

Snooki goes out for a stroll!

Image: article-0-0A9FE154000005DC-366_468x575.jpg

apparently she could use the exercise…

586 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:48:20pm

re: #585 brookly red

apparently she could use the exercise…

Looks like she’s sweeping up the sidewalk with those “shoes”.

587 TheMatrix31  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:49:39pm

re: #583 Gus 802

That chick is the epitome of worthless.

588 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:50:15pm

re: #581 marjoriemoon

I don’t think there’s any proof of that, that the sanctions were failing. We certainly didn’t find evidence of him acquiring nukes when we invaded and during the 12 odd years of inspections, they weren’t sure what he had. He lied, he falsified records, sent them on wild goose chases. In 1999, 2000, the inspectors were saying it was a 50/50 chance. I’ve mentioned this before, but a grave concern was that they couldn’t find the toxic waste. We now know why.

David Kay headed the UN inspections. He was also on the Bush payroll. All of a sudden, he’s confirming WMDs. In this Slate article, he admits he puffed up his reports to make Hussein look worse than he was. But if you had been following any of it prior to 2003, it’s not a surprise to learn it. Anyway, Kay is a rotten apple in my book.

Well, Saddam was evading the sanctions to smuggle oil and import weapons and spare parts for his tanks. In 2003 his Republican Guard used AT-14 anti-tank missiles that weren’t even in the test phase in 1991. Moreover, we found shipments of T-72 spare parts knew other shipments had gotten through. He was violating the sanctions frequently and glaringly. That alone would have justified his removal.

589 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:50:39pm

re: #587 TheMatrix31

That chick is the epitome of worthless.

and she gets paid for being worthless… gotta love the system.

590 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:50:48pm

re: #579 engineer dog

anybody like to take a question out of left field?

one of my conservative correspondents write to me:

health care bill will be to terminate almost all current employer based insurance plans. No one, but no one, is disputing that.

???

why would they say that?

since the bill actually mandates that all employers over a certain (rather small) size provide their employees with health insurance, and provides subsidies for it, the opposite would seem to be the case

Sure. A number of companies have run the numbers—and for many of them it will be cheaper to drop coverage and pay the “penalty” knowing that their employees will then be covered by the exchange.

The alternative is to meet the requirements of covering insurance expenses up to the point where no more than 9% of income goes into paying health insurance expenses. So the legislation mandates higher coverages and employers have the option of paying a less expensive penalty to bail.

591 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:50:54pm

re: #587 TheMatrix31

That chick is the epitome of worthless.

Yeah, lowlife reality-tv cable programming. Don’t think I’ve ever seen her move.

592 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:51:33pm

re: #587 TheMatrix31

That chick is the epitome of worthless.

Agreed. “Jersey Shore” is just cultural jetsam, washed up on the beach.

593 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:52:05pm

re: #592 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. “Jersey Shore” is just cultural jetsam, washed up on the beach.

Perth Amboy effluent.

594 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:54:54pm

re: #591 Gus 802

Yeah, lowlife reality-tv cable programming. Don’t think I’ve ever seen her move.

I feel stupider for having read the 4 or 5 posts on the subject. And stupider still for seeing the picture. Stop, please, I wasn’t too much brain to being with.

595 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:55:07pm

re: #589 brookly red

and she gets paid for being worthless… gotta love the system.

Role model.

596 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:55:13pm

re: #560 brookly red

some day I will have your soul & there will be tofu burgers, powerpoint presentations, and Cher muzak till hell freezes over… :)

ooooh & Jersey shore re-runs Muhahahaha! yeah that’s the ticket.

597 justaminute  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:55:37pm

Got to go and send the Muslim to bed now. He’s on his 2nd movie now. Somethin about Muslims taking over the US one restaurant at a time. Be afraid, very afraid. Pleasant dream and be sure an tip your waitress.//

598 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:55:48pm

re: #594 cliffster

I feel stupider for having read the 4 or 5 posts on the subject. And stupider still for seeing the picture. Stop, please, I wasn’t too much brain to being with.

OK, I’ll stop!

599 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:57:09pm

re: #597 justaminute

Got to go and send the Muslim to bed now. He’s on his 2nd movie now. Somethin about Muslims taking over the US one restaurant at a time. Be afraid, very afraid. Pleasant dream and be sure an tip your waitress.//

Damn! when the guy in the BBQ shack said his name was Achmid I knew something was up…

600 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:57:27pm

re: #582 brookly red

well the way I heard it is that the mandated fine for not providing coverage will be a small fraction of the cost of coverage…

hmmm, yeah, now i see where some people have predicted that:

The fine for AT&T would have amounted to $2,000 per employee, costing the company a grand total of $600 million a year. Maintaining benefits, meanwhile, will cost the firm some $4.6 billion

however, i can find no evidence that large companies are doing this. on the other hand

The Massachusetts Division of Health Care Finance and Policy annually surveys employers and found no significant drop in coverage as of the end of 2009, when more than three-quarters of companies offered health insurance.

But insurance brokers say the pace of terminations has picked up considerably since then among small companies, of which there are thousands in Massachusetts. Many of these companies — restaurants, day-care centers, hair salons, and retail shops — typically pay such low wages that their workers qualify for state-subsidized health insurance when their employers drop their plans.

on the third hand, if mid size and big companies want to attract and keep employees, they would become less competitive in the hiring marketplace if they drop health insurace but other firms keep it. i was just talking to a manager at a big firm who was thinking of going somewhere else because the company had stopped stock grants for people at his level

601 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:57:39pm

re: #594 cliffster

I feel stupider for having read the 4 or 5 posts on the subject. And stupider still for seeing the picture. Stop, please, I wasn’t too much brain to being with.

Youtube Video

602 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:57:54pm

re: #592 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. “Jersey Shore” is just cultural jetsam, washed up on the beach.

Not really, it’s a spectacle, one one that is crafted with purpose and which serves its creators well.

603 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:57:55pm

Time for some Keyboard Cat

Youtube Video

604 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:58:02pm

re: #590 BryanS

Sure. A number of companies have run the numbers—and for many of them it will be cheaper to drop coverage and pay the “penalty” knowing that their employees will then be covered by the exchange.

The alternative is to meet the requirements of covering insurance expenses up to the point where no more than 9% of income goes into paying health insurance expenses. So the legislation mandates higher coverages and employers have the option of paying a less expensive penalty to bail.

Also, this site has a great way to look at all the changes:
kff.org

You can see what the final legislation is by selecting that version of proposed changes. There’s quite a bit of information there, but it is the single best clear summary of what the bill contains that I have seen anywhere on the web.

605 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:58:04pm

re: #592 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. “Jersey Shore” is just cultural jetsam, washed up on the beach.

Thank god my folks moved from there to California before I was born.

Excuse me while I eat a pizza that was just delivered ……. artichoke hearts, sun dried tomatoes, white truffles, marshmallows, and extra gummi bears.

606 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:58:11pm

re: #559 Max D. Reinhardt

Hey Ludwig, wassup buddy? We got pizza!!

Love a good pizza…

607 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:59:39pm

re: #604 BryanS

thx!

608 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:00:09pm

re: #601 Varek Raith

good god

609 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:00:14pm

re: #606 LudwigVanQuixote

Love a good pizza…

Hi You! Hope today finds you well

610 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:00:17pm

re: #600 engineer dog

hmmm, yeah, now i see where some people have predicted that:

The fine for AT&T would have amounted to $2,000 per employee, costing the company a grand total of $600 million a year. Maintaining benefits, meanwhile, will cost the firm some $4.6 billion

however, i can find no evidence that large companies are doing this. on the other hand

The Massachusetts Division of Health Care Finance and Policy annually surveys employers and found no significant drop in coverage as of the end of 2009, when more than three-quarters of companies offered health insurance.

But insurance brokers say the pace of terminations has picked up considerably since then among small companies, of which there are thousands in Massachusetts. Many of these companies — restaurants, day-care centers, hair salons, and retail shops — typically pay such low wages that their workers qualify for state-subsidized health insurance when their employers drop their plans.

on the third hand, if mid size and big companies want to attract and keep employees, they would become less competitive in the hiring marketplace if they drop health insurace but other firms keep it. i was just talking to a manager at a big firm who was thinking of going somewhere else because the company had stopped stock grants for people at his level

in the end all will be forced into public option… that is and always was the plan.

611 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:00:31pm

re: #588 Dark_Falcon

Well, Saddam was evading the sanctions to smuggle oil and import weapons and spare parts for his tanks. In 2003 his Republican Guard used AT-14 anti-tank missiles that weren’t even in the test phase in 1991. Moreover, we found shipments of T-72 spare parts knew other shipments had gotten through. He was violating the sanctions frequently and glaringly. That alone would have justified his removal.

I don’t know if it would have justified it anyway if the inspectors stayed there. It still put a wrench in the works. I don’t buy the argument that UN inspections are no good because these man keep seeking to acquire. They worked in NK with Clinton and only after Jong iL kicked them out did he start to build.

Killing the Hussein clan was a good thing, but the price has been steep and ongoing.

612 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:00:35pm

re: #579 engineer dog

anybody like to take a question out of left field?

one of my conservative correspondents write to me:

health care bill will be to terminate almost all current employer based insurance plans. No one, but no one, is disputing that.

???

why would they say that?

since the bill actually mandates that all employers over a certain (rather small) size provide their employees with health insurance, and provides subsidies for it, the opposite would seem to be the case

Saying that black is white, red is blue, left is right and up means down is a wing nut specialty. One does have to wonder when schizophrenia in the clinical sense becomes legitimate to discuss.

613 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:00:52pm

re: #609 HoosierHoops

Hi You! Hope today finds you well

You as well my friend!

614 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:01:57pm

re: #610 brookly red

in the end all will be forced into public option… that is and always was the plan.

there is no public option

it was dropped from the bill in senate negotiations

615 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:01:58pm

re: #612 LudwigVanQuixote

Saying that black is white, red is blue, left is right and up means down is a wing nut specialty. One does have to wonder when schizophrenia in the clinical sense becomes legitimate to discuss.

In the land of the paranoid, the schizophrenic man is king.

616 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:02:38pm

re: #614 engineer dog

there is no public option

it was dropped from the bill in senate negotiations

don’t worry there will be…

617 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:03:46pm

re: #605 Mr Pancakes

Thank god my folks moved from there to California before I was born.

Excuse me while I eat a pizza that was just delivered … artichoke hearts, sun dried tomatoes, white truffles, marshmallows, and extra gummi bears.

places x next to Pancake’s name…

618 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:03:52pm

re: #600 engineer dog

from the site I linked:

* Assess employers with 50 or more employees that do not offer coverage and have at least one full-time employee who receives a premium tax credit a fee of $2,000 per full-time employee, excluding the first 30 employees from the assessment. Employers with more than 50 employees that offer coverage but have at least one full-time employee receiving a premium tax credit, will pay the lesser of $3,000 for each employee receiving a premium credit or $2,000 for each full-time employee, excluding the first 30 employees from the assessment. (Effective January 1, 2014)
* Exempt employers with fewer than 50 employees from any of the above penalties.
* Require employers that offer coverage to their employees to provide a free choice voucher to employees with incomes less than 400% FPL whose share of the premium exceeds 8% but is less than 9.8% of their income and who choose to enroll in a plan in the Exchange. The voucher amount is equal to what the employer would have paid to provide coverage to the employee under the employer’s plan and will be used to offset the premium costs for the plan in which the employee is enrolled. Employers providing free choice vouchers will not be subject to penalties for employees that receive premium credits in the Exchange. (Effective January 1, 2014)
* Require employers with more than 200 employees to automatically enroll employees into health insurance plans offered by the employer. Employees may opt out of coverage.


In short, there is a safe harbor where you have to provide coverage that costs no more than 9.8% of their income, or pay a $3000 penalty on top of what they pay for the coverage they offer for each person covered whose expenses exceed 9.8% of income and qualifies for an additional government subsidy. (or $2000 for every employee in the company if that is cheaper than an extra $3000 for any employee whose costs exceed 9.8% of income).

So, the least expensive option is to provide no coverage and pay $2000 per employee.

619 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:03:55pm

re: #611 marjoriemoon

I don’t know if it would have justified it anyway if the inspectors stayed there. It still put a wrench in the works. I don’t buy the argument that UN inspections are no good because these man keep seeking to acquire. They worked in NK with Clinton and only after Jong iL kicked them out did he start to build.

Killing the Hussein clan was a good thing, but the price has been steep and ongoing.

Not talking about WMDs, I was talking about conventional weapons that were beyond Hans Blix’s purview. Saddam was importing them illegally.

620 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:04:01pm

re: #616 brookly red

don’t worry there will be…

Good.

621 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:04:20pm

re: #615 Cato the Elder

In the land of the paranoid, the schizophrenic man is king.

I rather like that! It should be a “tee” shirt.

622 Stanley Sea  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:04:38pm

re: #604 BryanS

Also, this site has a great way to look at all the changes:
[Link: www.kff.org…]

You can see what the final legislation is by selecting that version of proposed changes. There’s quite a bit of information there, but it is the single best clear summary of what the bill contains that I have seen anywhere on the web.

Great link, funny the Kaiser Foundation was dissed earlier here tonight!!

623 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:05:09pm

re: #621 LudwigVanQuixote

I rather like that! It should be a “tee” shirt.

A Tea shirt?

624 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:05:41pm

re: #616 brookly red

don’t worry there will be…

it was the most difficult thing to pass in the proposed bill, so it was dropped. now the next congress will most likely be more republican. so chances of passing a public option, at least for the foreseeable future, would seem to be nil

but, if there were a public health insurance company, and it was cheaper than the private companies so that people would move to it massively as you predict

where is the downside?

625 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:05:51pm

re: #623 Cato the Elder

A Tea shirt?

Even better. Real Americans drink coffee!

626 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:05:55pm

Image: 6a00d8341c630a53ef01157074eb2d970b-pi.jpg

627 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:06:00pm

re: #622 Stanley Sea

Great link, funny the Kaiser Foundation was dissed earlier here tonight!!

Was it? They are fairly non-partisan I think.

628 TheMatrix31  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:06:42pm

re: #616 brookly red

Youtube Video

629 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:06:48pm

re: #613 LudwigVanQuixote

Ludwig, I saw this today and thought of you:

v

(FT) — International scientists have injected fresh evidence into the debate over global warming, saying that climate change is “undeniable” and shows clear signs of “human fingerprints” in the first major piece of research since the “Climategate” controversy.

The research, headed by the US National Oceans and Atmospheric Administration, is based on new data not available for the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report of 2007, the target of attacks by skeptics in recent years.

The NOAA study drew on up to 11 different indicators of climate, and found that each one pointed to a world that was warming owing to the influence of greenhouse gases, said Peter Stott, head of climate monitoring at the UK’s Met Office, one of the agencies participating.

Seven indicators were rising, he said. These were: air temperature over land, sea-surface temperature, marine air temperature, sea level, ocean heat, humidity, and tropospheric temperature in the “active-weather” layer of the atmosphere closest to the earth’s surface. Four indicators were declining: Arctic sea ice, glaciers, spring snow cover in the northern hemisphere, and stratospheric temperatures.

Mr Stott said: “The whole of the climate system is acting in a way consistent with the effects of greenhouse gases.” “The fingerprints are clear,” he said. “The glaringly obvious explanation for this is warming from greenhouse gases.”

Some scientists hailed the study as a refutation of the claims made by climate skeptics during the “Climategate” saga. Those scandals involved accusations — some since proven correct — of flaws in the IPCC’s landmark 2007 report, and the release of hundreds of emails from climate scientists that appeared to show them distorting certain data.

“This confirms that while all of this [Climategate] was going on, the earth was continuing to warm. It shows that Climategate was a distraction, because it took the focus off what the science actually says,” said Bob Ward, policy director of the Grantham Institute at the London School of Economics.

SNIP

630 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:07:01pm

re: #626 Gus 802

Image: 6a00d8341c630a53ef01157074eb2d970b-pi.jpg

Kentucky Fried Chocobo?

631 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:07:08pm

re: #626 Gus 802

Image: 6a00d8341c630a53ef01157074eb2d970b-pi.jpg

okay what part is that!?!

632 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:07:24pm

re: #624 engineer dog

it was the most difficult thing to pass in the proposed bill, so it was dropped. now the next congress will most likely be more republican. so chances of passing a public option, at least for the foreseeable future, would seem to be nil

but, if there were a public health insurance company, and it was cheaper than the private companies so that people would move to it massively as you predict

where is the downside?

if you have to ask you will never know… I really don’t want to bring this up now, sorry.

633 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:07:29pm

re: #631 eclectic infidel

okay what part is that!?!

The goiter.

634 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:07:49pm

re: #631 eclectic infidel

okay what part is that!?!

Looks like it might be a Chocobo nugget.

635 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:09:13pm

re: #619 Dark_Falcon

Not talking about WMDs, I was talking about conventional weapons that were beyond Hans Blix’s purview. Saddam was importing them illegally.

Ok, but he did a lot of things illegally. His whole reign was a torment. We can’t go into every totalitarian country and make it right. He has to have either attacked us or we have knowledge that he will attack us. That’s how the rules work. I mean, for the U.S. to go a war.

636 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:09:38pm

re: #629 Dark_Falcon

Let’s try that link again:

Study: Climate change ‘undeniable’

637 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:09:38pm

re: #624 engineer dog

it was the most difficult thing to pass in the proposed bill, so it was dropped. now the next congress will most likely be more republican. so chances of passing a public option, at least for the foreseeable future, would seem to be nil

but, if there were a public health insurance company, and it was cheaper than the private companies so that people would move to it massively as you predict

where is the downside?

It depends on why it is cheaper. If it is cheaper because of subsidies, then it isn’t really less expensive, just cheaper. Saves nothing.

If it is cheaper because of price fixing by the government, then that will result in market distortions because artificially lowering prices drives up demand while suppressing supply. If it is cheaper because it is non-profit, well my HMO is a non profit and that doesn’t make a lick of difference. It’s good coverage, but cheaper? No, it’s about in the middle of the pack.

638 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:10:04pm

re: #635 marjoriemoon

Ok, but he did a lot of things illegally. His whole reign was a torment. We can’t go into every totalitarian country and make it right. He has to have either attacked us or we have knowledge that he will attack us. That’s how the rules work. I mean, for the U.S. to go a war.

Tell that to the Vietnamese.

639 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:10:10pm

re: #635 marjoriemoon

Ok, but he did a lot of things illegally. His whole reign was a torment. We can’t go into every totalitarian country and make it right. He has to have either attacked us or we have knowledge that he will attack us. That’s how the rules work. I mean, for the U.S. to go a war.

congress did not see it that way…

640 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:10:48pm

re: #638 Cato the Elder

Tell that to the Vietnamese.

Well yea. And we saw how well that worked out.

641 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:11:05pm

re: #639 brookly red

congress did not see it that way…

On whose evidence?

642 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:11:44pm

re: #635 marjoriemoon

Ok, but he did a lot of things illegally. His whole reign was a torment. We can’t go into every totalitarian country and make it right. He has to have either attacked us or we have knowledge that he will attack us. That’s how the rules work. I mean, for the U.S. to go a war.

No, not in his case. After the first Gulf War, he signed a cease-fire that gave us the right to resume hostilities if he smuggled in weapons like he did. Iraq was like a parolee, and did not have the same rights as other nations.

643 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:11:45pm

A rehash of the Iraq War?
Unexpected.

644 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:12:01pm

Omigod, market distortions?!?11ty

As in, the gigantic funhouse mirror that is Wall Street?

Buy gold!

645 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:12:05pm

re: #613 LudwigVanQuixote

You as well my friend!

Crazy day..I’m in Oklahoma..Big job..I wake up at 3am last night..Couldn’t go back to sleep.. Worked a 14 hour day..Coming home my check oil light comes on..So I pull into Shell and bought a qt. of oil.. Opened up the hood and prepared to pour in the oil and burned my hand and spilled the oil all over the engine block…Smoke everywhere…I really messed up…I pull into the Hotel with smoke pouring out of the Beemer…I hope it’s ok in the morning…
What a day…Will a qt of oil on the engine ruin my car? I know it stinks bad..

646 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:12:09pm

re: #641 marjoriemoon

On whose evidence?

Mine. OK blame me, it was my fault & I did it on purpose OK?

647 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:12:49pm

Image: 1669FL.jpg

648 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:13:01pm

re: #646 brookly red

Mine. OK blame me, it was my fault & I did it on purpose OK?

Dubya? That you? And all this time I thought you were just a small town boy living in the big city.

649 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:13:22pm

re: #618 BryanS

from the site I linked:
So, the least expensive option is to provide no coverage and pay $2000 per employee.

let’s see… companies can choose not to provide health insurance now, and they will pay no penalty.

after jan 1st 2014, companies can choose not to provide health insurance, and they WILL pay a penalty

and why would the imposition of a penalty make companies more likely to incur it?

650 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:13:49pm

re: #645 HoosierHoops

Crazy day..I’m in Oklahoma..Big job..I wake up at 3am last night..Couldn’t go back to sleep.. Worked a 14 hour day..Coming home my check oil light comes on..So I pull into Shell and bought a qt. of oil.. Opened up the hood and prepared to pour in the oil and burned my hand and spilled the oil all over the engine block…Smoke everywhere…I really messed up…I pull into the Hotel with smoke pouring out of the Beemer…I hope it’s ok in the morning…
What a day…Will a qt of oil on the engine ruin my car? I know it stinks bad..

You should have the engine power-washed.

651 TheMatrix31  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:13:49pm

re: #646 brookly red

Shit, these libs have been blaming the wrong fuckin’ person all this time.

“Blame Brookly Red” doesnt roll off the tongue as nicely.

652 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:14:24pm

re: #634 Gus 802

Looks like it might be a Chocobo nugget.

Or perhaps the rump of a chupacabra?

653 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:14:40pm

re: #651 TheMatrix31

Shit, these libs have been blaming the wrong fuckin’ person all this time.

“Blame Brookly Red” doesnt roll off the tongue as nicely.

[smiles]

654 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:15:17pm

re: #651 TheMatrix31

Shit, these libs have been blaming the wrong fuckin’ person all this time.

“Blame Brookly Red” doesnt roll off the tongue as nicely.

just wait till you see what I do to Iran :)

655 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:15:21pm

re: #637 BryanS

It depends on why it is cheaper.

If it is cheaper because of price fixing by the government, then that will result in market distortions because artificially lowering prices drives up demand while suppressing supply.

this is the way it works in canada, and the result is the healthcare costs half as much

656 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:15:29pm

re: #644 Cato the Elder

Omigod, market distortions?!?11ty

As in, the gigantic funhouse mirror that is Wall Street?

Buy gold!

Yeah—like when the government sets rates for reimbursement on Medicare and if set too low drives doctors out of the business of providing care to Medicare patients. That was the controversy around the “doctor fix”.

657 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:15:39pm

re: #637 BryanS

wingnut

658 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:15:59pm

re: #642 Dark_Falcon

No, not in his case. After the first Gulf War, he signed a cease-fire that gave us the right to resume hostilities if he smuggled in weapons like he did. Iraq was like a parolee, and did not have the same rights as other nations.

So why then didn’t just Bush do that instead of trying to put WMDs in his pocket.

659 TheMatrix31  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:16:06pm

re: #654 brookly red

Can’t wait.

660 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:16:33pm

Elections have consequences.

661 Kruk  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:16:54pm

re: #639 brookly red

congress did not see it that way…

“Let’s say you’re an idiot, let’s say you’re a member of Congress…but then, I repeat myself.”- Mark Twain

662 Kruk  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:18:35pm

re: #660 Varek Raith

Elections have consequences.

Or put another way, people get the Government they deserve :)

663 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:18:40pm

re: #649 engineer dog

re: #618 BryanS

let’s see… companies can choose not to provide health insurance now, and they will pay no penalty.

after jan 1st 2014, companies can choose not to provide health insurance, and they WILL pay a penalty

and why would the imposition of a penalty make companies more likely to incur it?

Right now, if they drop coverage they are at a competitive disadvantage because almost everyone gets their insurance from their employers.

After Jan 1st, 2014, if they stop offering the benefit, they can pay a measly $2000 and let the government pick up the rest. Voila, health care for all your employees without paying for it.

664 TheMatrix31  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:19:07pm

re: #660 Varek Raith

Don’t we know it.

665 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:19:10pm

re: #661 Kruk

“Let’s say you’re an idiot, let’s say you’re a member of Congress…but then, I repeat myself.”- Mark Twain

Take my wife… PLEASE!!

666 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:19:15pm

re: #641 marjoriemoon

On whose evidence?

please allow me to introduce my self…

667 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:19:40pm

Do not click this.

668 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:19:41pm

re: #650 Cato the Elder

You should have the engine power-washed.

Can I do that at a car wash? I’m sorry but I know nothing about cars

669 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:19:49pm

re: #655 engineer dog

this is the way it works in canada, and the result is the healthcare costs half as much

And with wait times much more than twice as long for many procedures. Everyone loves the price—the service…meh.

670 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:20:53pm

re: #667 Gus 802

Love that site.

671 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:21:04pm

re: #662 Kruk

Or put another way, people get the Government they deserve :)

I don’t think we deserve two parties that are almost the same. At the rate we’re going, it’ll take another good century to introduce a third party that can compete with the miserable GOP or the useless Democrats. Until then, it’s the lesser of two evils.

672 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:21:34pm

re: #435 prairiefire

Senator Claire McCaskill from MO is kicking ass about the Arlington Cemetery fiasco.[Link: news.yahoo.com…]

I like McCaskill.

673 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:21:50pm

Long-time fixture of Congress, C. Rangel,
finds himself in a heck of a tangle.
But he knows where his friends’
buried bodies lie. Hence
I’m betting a pardon he’ll wangle.

Copyright © 2010 Cato the Elder

674 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:21:57pm

re: #670 freetoken

Love that site.

It’s great anthropology.

675 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:22:03pm

re: #670 freetoken

Love that site.

I feel like an asshole when I go to that site and laugh. Then I remember - I AM an asshole. That makes me feel better.

676 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:22:33pm

re: #658 marjoriemoon

So why then didn’t just Bush do that instead of trying to put WMDs in his pocket.

Because WMD’s were an issue that would hold the public’s attention far more readily, and Bush (like the CIA and MI6) was sure Saddam was hiding them. The real purpose for the final run of inspections was to provide political cover for Tony Blair, who in turn supplied British troops we needed both militarily and politically (so we would not be seen as “going it alone”). WMD’s were a pretext; if Saddam had been decisively cleared of them, George W. would have found another one. The real reason for the war was to remove a hostile and ambitious tyrant who’d been a drain on our money and political capital for far too long.

677 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:22:42pm

re: #668 HoosierHoops

Can I do that at a car wash? I’m sorry but I know nothing about cars

I’m pretty sure any full-service car wash can do it for you.

678 Political Atheist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:23:50pm

Kinda cool when something you Page winds up as a real thread. I’m late to this thread, went out and bought a truck. Man that is a grind of a process.

679 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:24:48pm

re: #458 b_sharp

It was so nice of the Americans to save the British, Canadian, Australian, Russian, and others who were using slings and hand axes.

You didn’t do it alone.

Why do Americans always sound like they believe they were the Cavalry riding over the hill and saving everyone?

It’s our personal mythos! Don’t challenge the special national personal mythos!

(Also, I have it on good authority that the ANZACs did use hand axes, but by personal preference. Guns would have made it all unsporting.)

//

680 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:25:14pm

re: #663 BryanS

Right now, if they drop coverage they are at a competitive disadvantage because almost everyone gets their insurance from their employers.

After Jan 1st, 2014, if they stop offering the benefit, they can pay a measly $2000 and let the government pick up the rest. Voila, health care for all your employees without paying for it.

no, they will still pay more in the future for not providing coverage than they do now

there is no penalty or requirement to fulfill if they don’t provide coverage now

681 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:25:31pm

re: #667 Gus 802

Do not click this.

Back boob pr0n!

682 Kruk  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:25:56pm

re: #665 cliffster

Take my wife… PLEASE!!

“A wife is a luxury. A smart accountant is a neccesity”.- From the Ferengi Rules of Acquistion.

sjtrek.com

683 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:26:25pm

re: #667 Gus 802

Do not click this.

Dammit, I was in such a rush to get to the big sale at Wal-Mart, I put my boobs on backwards again!

684 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:26:47pm

re: #681 Varek Raith

Back boob pr0n!

those are not back boobs… that is a 2nd butt.

685 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:27:02pm

re: #466 BryanS

As I say, it’s not always cut and dry. Was the Tillman “coverup” designed to hide wrong doing or to provide a rally cry story? Imagine if —which UK prince was it—say he fought and was killed by friendly fire. I would expect the story to be that he died guns ablazin’. Tillman was a known quantity before going into the military . I think the “coverup” was along the lines of trying to create a hero story to rally the public rather than a coverup designed to mask wrongdoing.

As the public, I took it rather personally. I am a grown-up. I can deal with the fact that a man can be a good person and a good soldier and still die of friendly fire like anyone else. I do not need to be coddled with pretend stories about All-American heroes.

686 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:27:43pm

re: #468 Cannadian Club Akbar

I have asked this before and will ask again. (an some others stole my question) What would the ME look like if Iran was making the bomb and Saddam was in power. That’s what I thought.

What do you think Saddam’s reaction to a potential nuclear Iran might have been?

687 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:28:30pm

re: #669 BryanS

And with wait times much more than twice as long for many procedures. Everyone loves the price—the service…meh.

worse things can happen to a person than to wait a while

before the health insurance bill, there were millions (still are) of people in this country who have no health insurance

in this country, that means the only health care you can afford is the emergency room at the last possible minute

what would you rather have: no health care or longer waiting times?

688 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:29:06pm

Damn. I need some brain bleach.

689 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:29:26pm

re: #479 freetoken

The other interesting political news of the evening comes from NY, where a Republican candidate found himself in public embarrassment:

McMahon fires ‘Jewish money’ aide

Must be the same folk funding LGF, eh?

Er, sounds like the Democrat is the one who’s got some ‘splainin’ to do.

690 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:30:20pm

re: #482 BryanS

If Israel didn’t bomb Osirak, yes.

Yes, but Osirak was bombed in 1981. For the Lord’s sake.

691 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:30:37pm

re: #676 Dark_Falcon

Because WMD’s were an issue that would hold the public’s attention far more readily, and Bush (like the CIA and MI6) was sure Saddam was hiding them. The real purpose for the final run of inspections was to provide political cover for Tony Blair, who in turn supplied British troops we needed both militarily and politically (so we would not be seen as “going it alone”). WMD’s were a pretext; if Saddam had been decisively cleared of them, George W. would have found another one. The real reason for the war was to remove a hostile and ambitious tyrant who’d been a drain on our money and political capital for far too long.

Indeed, that certainly is the story and like it or not, we’re all stuck with it. I think there were a lot of reasons for the war, but I can’t say all were justified. There was a time I would have agreed with you more, but I’m not so decisive now.

692 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:30:54pm

re: #483 Cannadian Club Akbar

I want slightly cooked socialism. With pasta.
/

Al dente socialism with al dente pasta?
Seared socialism, still pink at the core?
Lightly sauteed socialism?

693 Kruk  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:31:31pm

re: #687 engineer dog

worse things can happen to a person than to wait a while

before the health insurance bill, there were millions (still are) of people in this country who have no health insurance

in this country, that means the only health care you can afford is the emergency room at the last possible minute

what would you rather have: no health care or longer waiting times?

Not to mention you can have the best of both worlds. Here in NZ, the public sector offers universal, guarnteed coverage at little or no cost. You can also have private coverage that allows you skip the waiting lists and pay for the services you want.

694 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:31:47pm

re: #687 engineer dog

worse things can happen to a person than to wait a while

before the health insurance bill, there were millions (still are) of people in this country who have no health insurance

in this country, that means the only health care you can afford is the emergency room at the last possible minute

what would you rather have: no health care or longer waiting times?

People with no health insurance can’t afford the ER……. this I know. I’m talking those who pay their bills.

695 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:32:04pm

re: #678 Rightwingconspirator

Kinda cool when something you Page winds up as a real thread. I’m late to this thread, went out and bought a truck. Man that is a grind of a process.

you bought a truck? sweet. will you help me move this weekend?

696 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:33:05pm

re: #680 engineer dog

no, they will still pay more in the future for not providing coverage than they do now

there is no penalty or requirement to fulfill if they don’t provide coverage now

Is your assumption that most companies don’t pay for insurance now? The vast majority of jobs include insurance coverage as a benefit.

I can assure you the costs at my company (any company really) are much more than $2000 per employee to provide health insurance. So yes, there are some companies representing a small percentage of the workforce that now pay nothing because they offer no benefits. Point is, almost every company that does offer benefits now will have incentives to drop coverage.

Now, I don’t want to drop coverage on my employees, but if my competitors drop coverage and their employees go into the exchange they will lower their labor costs. I may be forced to drop coverage to stay competitive.

697 Professor Chaos  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:33:13pm

re: #676 Dark_Falcon

Because WMD’s were an issue that would hold the public’s attention far more readily, and Bush (like the CIA and MI6) was sure Saddam was hiding them. The real purpose for the final run of inspections was to provide political cover for Tony Blair, who in turn supplied British troops we needed both militarily and politically (so we would not be seen as “going it alone”). WMD’s were a pretext; if Saddam had been decisively cleared of them, George W. would have found another one. The real reason for the war was to remove a hostile and ambitious tyrant who’d been a drain on our money and political capital for far too long.

Yeah, look at all that money and political capital we’ve saved over the last seven years.

698 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:34:27pm

ok kids, I’m out. Have fun :>

699 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:34:50pm

re: #696 BryanS

Is your assumption that most companies don’t pay for insurance now? The vast majority of jobs include insurance coverage as a benefit.

I can assure you the costs at my company (any company really) are much more than $2000 per employee to provide health insurance. So yes, there are some companies representing a small percentage of the workforce that now pay nothing because they offer no benefits. Point is, almost every company that does offer benefits now will have incentives to drop coverage.

you haven’t shown what those incentives are

700 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:35:07pm

re: #580 Dark_Falcon

They actually don’t want the recognized 13th Amendment removed, they want the ‘original 13th’ added. They are wrong of course: Faulty history + ODS = Bad Craziness.

Didn’t Teddy Roosevelt also receive a Nobel?

701 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:35:25pm

re: #687 engineer dog

worse things can happen to a person than to wait a while

before the health insurance bill, there were millions (still are) of people in this country who have no health insurance

in this country, that means the only health care you can afford is the emergency room at the last possible minute

what would you rather have: no health care or longer waiting times?

I’d rather have the option of paying for health care that is good if I can afford it. In Canada, it is not legal to practice medicine outside the government system.

702 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:35:48pm

re: #690 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, but Osirak was bombed in 1981. For the Lord’s sake.

Also, it was un-fueled.

703 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:36:03pm

re: #592 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. “Jersey Shore” is just cultural jetsam, washed up on the beach.

I’ve never seen it, but frankly, as compared to ‘Real Housewives’ or whatever, it seems sort of harmless. Heavily tanned kids, showing off their figures, OK.

704 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:36:41pm

re: #599 brookly red

Damn! when the guy in the BBQ shack said his name was Achmid I knew something was up…

There’s a halal burrito place in Albany I keep meaning to try.

705 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:36:42pm

re: #694 Mr Pancakes

People with no health insurance can’t afford the ER… this I know. I’m talking those who pay their bills.

indeed

in fact, the rest of the world is the empirical proof that all the theories proposed for why universal coverage is bad are false

we have most of the best hospitals in the world, yet our overall health care rating is not good for such a rich country

706 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:36:42pm

re: #690 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, but Osirak was bombed in 1981. For the Lord’s sake.

That was my point, I think. Iraq was no where near a nuke. The Israeli bombing in ‘81 set them back pretty much for good.

707 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:37:24pm

re: #619 Dark_Falcon

Not talking about WMDs, I was talking about conventional weapons that were beyond Hans Blix’s purview. Saddam was importing them illegally.

Fuck you, Hans Brix!!!

708 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:38:06pm

“There’s never enough time to do all the nothing you want.” — Calvin and Hobbes

709 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:38:25pm

re: #706 BryanS

/throws some gas on the fire.

Takes me back to months ago, people saying that Israel has never taken pre-emptive strikes :)

710 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:38:40pm

re: #635 marjoriemoon

Ok, but he did a lot of things illegally. His whole reign was a torment. We can’t go into every totalitarian country and make it right. He has to have either attacked us or we have knowledge that he will attack us. That’s how the rules work. I mean, for the U.S. to go a war.

Well, that was the whole issue around the Bush Doctrine—which is why it worried me that Sarah Palin had never heard of it.

711 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:38:45pm

re: #701 BryanS

I’d rather have the option of paying for health care that is good if I can afford it. In Canada, it is not legal to practice medicine outside the government system.

as far as i know, only health insurance is fully socialized in canada. most of the hospitals and doctors are private

712 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:39:15pm

re: #707 SanFranciscoZionist

Fuck you, Hans Brix!!!

I smiled at it, thought a minute, got it then laughed ‘for reals’ ;)

713 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:40:25pm

re: #699 engineer dog

you haven’t shown what those incentives are

Sure I have. Starting in 2014, instead of paying an average of $5000 per employee to offer insurance, I can pay instead $2000 and drop coverage—letting the employees go into the exchange instead. I save $3000 per employee and they still get their health care.

714 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:40:29pm

re: #705 engineer dog

indeed

in fact, the rest of the world is the empirical proof that all the theories proposed for why universal coverage is bad are false

we have most of the best hospitals in the world, yet our overall health care rating is not good for such a rich country

Yes… you nailed it. My only option is to cross into Mexico for health care and dentistry….. that ain’t right in my view.

715 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:41:10pm

re: #710 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, that was the whole issue around the Bush Doctrine—which is why it worried me that Sarah Palin had never heard of it.

In what respect Charlie?

716 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:41:45pm

re: #708 cliffster

“There’s never enough time to do all the nothing you want.” — Calvin and Hobbes

There really isn’t. Sigh.

717 TheMatrix31  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:41:55pm

re: #713 BryanS

Wait! Show me more specifics!

/

718 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:42:42pm

re: #713 BryanS

Sure I have. Starting in 2014, instead of paying an average of $5000 per employee to offer insurance, I can pay instead $2000 and drop coverage—letting the employees go into the exchange instead. I save $3000 per employee and they still get their health care.

which you still pay for in increased taxes…

719 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:42:50pm

re: #708 cliffster

“There’s never enough time to do all the nothing you want.” — Calvin and Hobbes

You can never go back to fix the past..So just run away as fast as you can from it.
-Hoopster

720 brookly red  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:44:13pm

OK that’s all for me…

721 windsagio  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:44:40pm

re: #719 HoosierHoops

Pff everyone loves arguing about he Iraq war!

722 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:44:57pm

re: #713 BryanS

Sure I have. Starting in 2014, instead of paying an average of $5000 per employee to offer insurance, I can pay instead $2000 and drop coverage—letting the employees go into the exchange instead. I save $3000 per employee and they still get their health care.

OR, I can pay an extra $3000 per employee where their share of the premium exceeds 9.8% of their income if I keep insurance as a benefit. That would be true for every employee who has a family in my company—the subsidy rules are that if the person’s share of health care expenses exceed 9.8% and their income is less than 4 times the rate of poverty ($80,000 for a family of 4) then I have to pay a $3000 penalty.

So my options would be to pay an additional 7*$3000=$21k to keep insurance, or drop it and save 15*$3000=$45k. That’s a big swing in expenses.

723 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:45:07pm

re: #713 BryanS

Sure I have. Starting in 2014, instead of paying an average of $5000 per employee to offer insurance, I can pay instead $2000 and drop coverage—letting the employees go into the exchange instead. I save $3000 per employee and they still get their health care.

you can drop insurance now and not pay any fine

what’s your point?

now, if you drop your employees, you pay no fine and your employees have to fend for themselves. in the future, you will have to pay a fine and your employees will get a little bit of help fending for themselves

why is that better for you?

724 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:45:08pm

re: #720 brookly red

OK that’s all for me…

See ya pizza snob….. goodnight.

725 Kruk  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:45:24pm

re: #718 brookly red

which you still pay for in increased taxes…

That’s right. Us evil socialists will get you one way or the other. We’ll screen, vaccinate and treat you all, regardless of whether you can afford it or not, and you will *like* it. Muahahhaha!

726 Stanley Sea  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:45:58pm

It’s Snooki’s Stock Market Now

727 cliffster  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:45:59pm

off to bed I go. night all..

728 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:46:40pm

re: #727 cliffster

off to bed I go. night all..

Niterz dude

729 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:47:59pm

re: #711 engineer dog

as far as i know, only health insurance is fully socialized in canada. most of the hospitals and doctors are private

I could stand to be corrected here, but the reason I believe Canadians come here for health coverage is that they DO NOT currently have the right to pay for their own health care directly to doctors or medical facilities. So that is why they come here instead if they are unhappy about the waits. I read changes to those limitations were under consideration.

730 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:48:10pm

re: #726 Stanley Sea

It’s Snooki’s Stock Market Now

That’s it. Stop the world. I’m getting off.

Cripes. What a country.

731 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:48:33pm

re: #726 Stanley Sea

It’s Snooki’s Stock Market Now

Lol, what’s with that dude’s hair???

732 Stanley Sea  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:48:43pm

QuakeReports
M 2.5, Baja California, Mexico bit.ly
20 minutes ago via twitterfeed

QuakeReports
M 6.2, off the east coast of the Kamchatka Peninsula, Russia bit.ly
20 minutes ago via twitterfeed

QuakeReports
M 5.4, off the east coast of the Kamchatka Peninsula, Russia bit.ly
20 minutes ago via twitterfeed

QuakeReports
M 5.2, Balleny Islands region bit.ly
20 minutes ago via twitterfeed

QuakeReports

M 2.7, Central California bit.ly
20 minutes ago via twitterfeed

Not sure if following QuakeReports is a good thing.

733 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:49:08pm

re: #730 Gus 802

That’s it. Stop the world. I’m getting off.

Cripes. What a country.

Yea… that whole culture is goofy…….. I will never watch that show.

734 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:49:20pm

re: #718 brookly red

which you still pay for in increased taxes…

Yes, but if I choose to keep trying to offer coverage myself, I’m basically double paying. While a competitor of mine, if they chose to drop coverage, then has a huge cost advantage over me.

735 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:50:57pm

so, let’s review:

now, an employer can not offer health insurance. their employees can re: #729 BryanS

I could stand to be corrected here, but the reason I believe Canadians come here for health coverage is that they DO NOT currently have the right to pay for their own health care directly to doctors or medical facilities. So that is why they come here instead if they are unhappy about the waits. I read changes to those limitations were under consideration.

This does not constitute a ban on privately funded care; indeed, about 30% of Canadian health expenditures come from private sources, both insurance and out-of-pocket payments.[70] The Canada Health Act does not address delivery. Private clinics are therefore permitted, albeit subject to provincial/territorial regulations, but they cannot charge above the agreed-upon fee schedule unless they are treating non-insured persons (which may include those eligible under automobile insurance or worker’s compensation, in addition to those who are not Canadian residents), or providing non-insured services. This provision has been controversial among those seeking a greater role for private funding.

In 2006, a Canadian court threatened to shut down one private clinic because it was planning to start accepting private payments from patients.[71]

en.wikipedia.org

736 Stanley Sea  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:51:22pm

re: #730 Gus 802

That’s it. Stop the world. I’m getting off.

Cripes. What a country.

They’ll be on the floor next year

737 Professor Chaos  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:51:46pm

re: #732 Stanley Sea

QuakeReports
M 2.5, Baja California, Mexico [Link: bit.ly…]
20 minutes ago via twitterfeed

QuakeReports
M 6.2, off the east coast of the Kamchatka Peninsula, Russia [Link: bit.ly…]
20 minutes ago via twitterfeed

QuakeReports
M 5.4, off the east coast of the Kamchatka Peninsula, Russia [Link: bit.ly…]
20 minutes ago via twitterfeed

QuakeReports
M 5.2, Balleny Islands region [Link: bit.ly…]
20 minutes ago via twitterfeed

QuakeReports

M 2.7, Central California [Link: bit.ly…]
20 minutes ago via twitterfeed

Not sure if following QuakeReports is a good thing.

Only if you want a constant and accurate description of where, when, and how hard your world is being rocked.

738 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:51:48pm

re: #733 Mr Pancakes

Yea… that whole culture is goofy… I will never watch that show.

I can imagine. Never seen it and don’t want to see it. One of the reasons I don’t watch TV is because there’s a lot of that type of garbage on TV these days.

739 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:53:02pm

re: #736 Stanley Sea

They’ll be on the floor next year

You’re killing me!

740 Stanley Sea  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:53:26pm

re: #738 Gus 802

I can imagine. Never seen it and don’t want to see it. One of the reasons I don’t watch TV is because there’s a lot of that type of garbage on TV these days.

And now I will report: Project Runway is back, and I love it!!

741 Stanley Sea  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:53:47pm

re: #739 Gus 802

You’re killing me!

I flipped out that they were at the NYSE and rang the bell!

742 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:54:00pm

re: #740 Stanley Sea

And now I will report: Project Runway is back, and I love it!!

Nikki’s favorite show!

743 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:54:24pm

re: #723 engineer dog

you can drop insurance now and not pay any fine

what’s your point?

now, if you drop your employees, you pay no fine and your employees have to fend for themselves. in the future, you will have to pay a fine and your employees will get a little bit of help fending for themselves

why is that better for you?

I don’t understand what you don’t understand. I do not really have the option of dropping coverage now—my employees will not have coverage then. I want my employees to have coverage, as do most employers. If I did drop coverage, I’d probably also lose employees. However once the health care bill is fully in effect, I can save a lot of money by dropping coverage without the concern that my employees do not have coverage. The point is that there is a big incentive for me as an employer to discontinue health care coverage as an employee benefit. And if my competitors choose to drop coverage as well and lower their labor costs, I will be at a competitive disadvantage if I kept insurance benefits.

744 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:55:13pm

re: #738 Gus 802

I can imagine. Never seen it and don’t want to see it. One of the reasons I don’t watch TV is because there’s a lot of that type of garbage on TV these days.

If it wasn’t for NFL football….. I could see canceling my cable.

745 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:55:21pm

re: #722 BryanS

OR, I can pay an extra $3000 per employee where their share of the premium exceeds 9.8% of their income if I keep insurance as a benefit. That would be true for every employee who has a family in my company—the subsidy rules are that if the person’s share of health care expenses exceed 9.8% and their income is less than 4 times the rate of poverty ($80,000 for a family of 4) then I have to pay a $3000 penalty.

So my options would be to pay an additional 7*$3000=$21k to keep insurance, or drop it and save 15*$3000=$45k. That’s a big swing in expenses.

ok - are you going to drop health insurance for your employees?

as for the rest of the country, i guess we’ll find out in 2014

746 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:58:08pm

re: #743 BryanS

I don’t understand what you don’t understand. I do not really have the option of dropping coverage now—my employees will not have coverage then. I want my employees to have coverage, as do most employers. If I did drop coverage, I’d probably also lose employees. However once the health care bill is fully in effect, I can save a lot of money by dropping coverage without the concern that my employees do not have coverage. The point is that there is a big incentive for me as an employer to discontinue health care coverage as an employee benefit. And if my competitors choose to drop coverage as well and lower their labor costs, I will be at a competitive disadvantage if I kept insurance benefits.

does the “exchange” (or whatever) completely cover the cost of insurance that you are now providing with government subsidized payments?

unless the employees see no increase in the part that they have to pay, you will be just as likely to lose employees after 2014

and you will have to pay the fine

747 Stanley Sea  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:58:41pm

Night all!

748 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:58:56pm

Oh boy. I’m still listening to Alam Colmes. The Southerners calling in are rabid nut bars. Rabid, I tell you.

749 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:59:02pm

re: #736 Stanley Sea

They’ll be on the floor next year

That’s it.
Your planet is toast as soon as I have a pop tart and some coffee.
Ah, fuck it!
*Presses Red Button of Certain DOOOMMM*

750 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:59:08pm

re: #747 Stanley Sea

Night all!

Goodnite Stanley

751 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:01:06pm

re: #744 Mr Pancakes

If it wasn’t for NFL football… I could see canceling my cable.

I watch what’s good on Hulu. Might catch “Pride of the Yankees” later with Gary Cooper. Odd though. They have it listed under documentaries but it’s really a biopic or a docu-drama.

752 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:01:09pm

re: #745 engineer dog

ok - are you going to drop health insurance for your employees?

as for the rest of the country, i guess we’ll find out in 2014

I’d prefer not to. But I’ll have to wait and see if I can afford to keep it. Saving $45k versus seeing mandated increases of $21k is a large pill to swallow. That’s on the order of a difference in 10% of my payroll. If my competitors decide to drop coverage, I don’t think I will be able to hold on long to offering coverage. A 10% difference in labor costs is a huge disadvantage.

753 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:03:10pm

re: #748 eclectic infidel

Oh boy. I’m still listening to Alam Colmes. The Southerners calling in are rabid nut bars. Rabid, I tell you.

Rabies is almost invariably fatal if post-exposure prophylaxis is not administered prior to the onset of severe symptoms.

Now that you’ve been exposed to it, be sure to get the prophylaxis pronto!

754 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:03:15pm

re: #751 Gus 802

I watch what’s good on Hulu. Might catch “Pride of the Yankees” later with Gary Cooper. Odd though. They have it listed under documentaries but it’s really a biopic or a docu-drama.

Hulu is cool……. lot’s o’ Saturday Night Live stuff that keeps me and my daughter laughing.

755 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:03:23pm

I’m out.
:)

756 Cheechako  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:03:31pm

re: #718 brookly red

which you still pay for in increased taxes…


And where do the increased taxes come from?
From the tax-payers who have health insurance as the amount you and your employer pay for health insurance will now be included in your gross income and you will pay the increased taxes!

757 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:03:52pm

re: #755 Varek Raith

I’m out.
:)

Goodnite Varek

758 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:04:21pm

re: #748 eclectic infidel

Oh boy. I’m still listening to Alam Colmes. The Southerners calling in are rabid nut bars. Rabid, I tell you.

What are they mad at Alan about now?

759 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:05:19pm

re: #754 Mr Pancakes

Hulu is cool… lot’s o’ Saturday Night Live stuff that keeps me and my daughter laughing.

They have a nice collection of some of the good old TV series like Rockford Files, Magnum PI, Simon & Simon.

760 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:06:11pm

re: #759 Gus 802

They have a nice collection of some of the good old TV series like Rockford Files, Magnum PI, Simon & Simon.

Yea…. I need to dig deeper.

761 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:06:35pm

re: #758 SanFranciscoZionist

What are they mad at Alan about now?

Alan supports illegals coming to the country to work, and is opposed to building a wall. That’s generating an incredible amount of anger.

762 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:07:14pm

re: #743 BryanS

Let’s start with people who are unemployed, self-employed, or work for businesses that don’t offer insurance. Beginning in 2014 (that’s right, this is four years away), these people would be able to shop for coverage in new “health exchanges,” a sort of online bazaar in which insurers would hawk different kinds of plans. We’ll talk more about how these malls might work in our next story.

Congressional budget experts figure that about 25 million people will shop for coverage in these exchanges. That’s a pretty big market. Of these, about 19 million are likely to be eligible for financial aid.

The cutoff level would be an income of four times the federal poverty level. For one person, that’s about $44,000 a year. For a family of four, the comparable figure is about $88,000.

Subsidies would be figured on a sliding scale, with those who make less getting a bigger boost and those nearer the top getting a smaller one.

The formula is pretty complicated. Basically, though, people who make three or four times the poverty level would get enough federal money so that they would not have to pay more than about 10 percent of their income for a decent health insurance package.

People who make less would have to pay a smaller slice of their income for coverage. For instance, individuals who make about $14,000, and four-person families with incomes of about $29,000, would not have to pay more than 3 to 4 percent of their incomes for insurance

so, if you drop insurance for your employees, they will have to pay from 3 to 10 percent of their income for health insurance, and you would have to pay $2000/employee

so, they have to pay more out of pocket, and you still pay the fine

763 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:07:45pm

re: #746 engineer dog

does the “exchange” (or whatever) completely cover the cost of insurance that you are now providing with government subsidized payments?

unless the employees see no increase in the part that they have to pay, you will be just as likely to lose employees after 2014

and you will have to pay the fine

Yes, in large part because of the subsidies. The out of pocket expenses will be similar to what they have now.

The subsidies cap as percentage of income how much they pay:

Up to 133% FPL: 2% of income
133-150% FPL: 3 – 4% of income
150-200% FPL: 4 – 6.3% of income
200-250% FPL: 6.3 – 8.05% of income
250-300% FPL: 8.05 – 9.5% of income
300-400% FPL: 9.5% of income
764 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:09:45pm

re: #761 eclectic infidel

As I pointed out earlier today, that open-borders idea is a libertarian one… which shows how ironic it is for Colmes to get attacked for what is the economic theory of some of the people who are behind the anti-“Liberal” rhetoric out there.

765 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:10:53pm

re: #752 BryanS

mandated increases of $21k .

where does this figure come from?

my apologies, i missed the explanation the first time

766 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:12:09pm

re: #762 engineer dog

re: #743 BryanS

so, if you drop insurance for your employees, they will have to pay from 3 to 10 percent of their income for health insurance, and you would have to pay $2000/employee

so, they have to pay more out of pocket, and you still pay the fine

Insurance costs a lot. A number of my employees will actually pay much less if I drop the benefit.

767 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:14:04pm

Yes, in large part because of the subsidies. The out of pocket expenses will be similar to what they have now.

The subsidies cap as percentage of income how much they pay:

Up to 133% FPL: 2% of income
133-150% FPL: 3 – 4% of income
150-200% FPL: 4 – 6.3% of income
200-250% FPL: 6.3 – 8.05% of income
250-300% FPL: 8.05 – 9.5% of income
300-400% FPL: 9.5% of income

i’m at the top level, and a couple of years ago when i had company health insurance, the amount deducted from my paycheck for it was considerably less than 9.5%

768 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:14:18pm

Speaking of Hulu, I’m watching the Presidents visit to the View:

hulu.com

I see Barbara came back and did the lead off questions.

Some of the questions are pretty tough, compared to what is soft-balled on so many shows.

769 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:15:57pm

re: #766 BryanS

Insurance costs a lot. A number of my employees will actually pay much less if I drop the benefit.

Are you talking getting insurance on their own? I priced it for my family…… it was 3x than what I was paying when I was working for a company…… one and a half times my rent.

If I misunderstood you…… sorry.

770 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:17:38pm

re: #765 engineer dog

where does this figure come from?

my apologies, i missed the explanation the first time

Eveyone in my company who has a family would fall under the category of earning less than 4 times the poverty rate, so i would have to pay a $3000 penalty because their out of pocket expenses exceed 9.8% of their income. Remember that family of four needs to make $80k before they no longer qualify for subsidies. Cost of living where I live is much lower than large metropolitan areas. $80k would be on the high end of the salary range in my community. I’d guess 90%+ of families in my community would qualify for subsidies.

771 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:18:33pm

re: #769 Mr Pancakes

Are you talking getting insurance on their own? I priced it for my family… it was 3x than what I was paying when I was working for a company… one and a half times my rent.

If I misunderstood you… sorry.

I’m talking about what the costs would be once the subsidy structure is in place under the health care reforms.

772 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:19:19pm

re: #771 BryanS

I’m talking about what the costs would be once the subsidy structure is in place under the health care reforms.

Ahhhhhh I jumped in late…..

773 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:22:00pm

re: #770 BryanS

their out of pocket expenses exceed 9.8% of their income

how do their out-of-pocket expenses exceed 9.8% of their income?

if you are paying somebody, say $40k/yr, do they have to pay in more than $4k/yr as their part of your insurance plan?

774 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:26:54pm

Oh and a few right-wing jerks offs are whining over the fact that Obama appeared on The View.

775 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:29:46pm

re: #774 eclectic infidel

Oh and a few right-wing jerks offs are whining over the fact that Obama appeared on The View.

Sorry. Tired. “jerk-offs” PIMP

776 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:31:29pm

ok, i have made a nuisance of myself spamming things up with this discussion and have killed the thread

i’ll show mercy to the rest of the crowd and shut up now

:-(

777 Gus  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:31:46pm

Note. Web designers who create slide shows that make the whole page reload whenever you advance to the next image are dumber than dirt.

778 BryanS  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:34:22pm

re: #773 engineer dog

how do their out-of-pocket expenses exceed 9.8% of their income?

if you are paying somebody, say $40k/yr, do they have to pay in more than $4k/yr as their part of your insurance plan?

Yep. Play with some numbers here:

healthreform.kff.org

That family of four would pay $1,982 if they were in the exchange the rest would be paid as government subsidy. They pay about $6000 now. Also, keep in mind entry level jobs tend to have lower salaries and tend to be single unmarried people. Some would pay a bit more, some a bit less, but on the whole most would pay less. And families would pay on average a lot less.

779 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:40:31pm

re: #774 eclectic infidel

Oh and a few right-wing jerks offs are whining over the fact that Obama appeared on The View.

Some of the commenters on Hulu likewise are whining.

Yet Presidents always go campaigning at election time, and we’re just 3 months away from the mid-term elections.

I think President Obama handled himself well, even if most of his answers were obviously well crafted from a political perspective.

780 dog philosopher  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:41:35pm

re: #778 BryanS

Yep. Play with some numbers here:

[Link: healthreform.kff.org…]

That family of four would pay $1,982 if they were in the exchange the rest would be paid as government subsidy. They pay about $6000 now. Also, keep in mind entry level jobs tend to have lower salaries and tend to be single unmarried people. Some would pay a bit more, some a bit less, but on the whole most would pay less. And families would pay on average a lot less.

ok, now we have you paying less, perhaps, and the employee paying less

you pay a $2000/employee fine which is in effect a health insurance tax, and in return your employees get subsidized health insurance that is less than they are paying now

is that correct?

781 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:42:39pm

re: #766 BryanS

Insurance costs a lot. A number of my employees will actually pay much less if I drop the benefit.

Unless of course they actually become sick and need care.

782 freetoken  Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:58:31pm

Vending machines done right in Japan:

Youtube Video

783 BryanS  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:00:59am

re: #780 engineer dog

ok, now we have you paying less, perhaps, and the employee paying less

you pay a $2000/employee fine which is in effect a health insurance tax, and in return your employees get subsidized health insurance that is less than they are paying now

is that correct?

Yep. Now they are paying less because of subsidies, but yes. Point is, there is an incentive for employers to discontinue offering health insurance as a benefit. And the lower costs come in the form of higher taxes spread across the board. This is why originally when you posted your question about why large companies were considering dropping coverage, I could understand why that would be.

My company has a higher than average pay rate for the community I live in. I would guess that industries with lower than average salaries will cease providing coverage en masse once the legislation is in effect. Industries with higher average salaries will have less incentive to do so since employees would receive less subsidy.

I think the effect of this legislation will be to phase out employee provided health care. Almost everyone will purchase health insurance as individuals via the exchanges. One could argue this would result in more individual decisions and therefore a more efficient market than the current system. Risk would be pooled via the exchanges rather than via companies.

784 dog philosopher  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:02:33am

re: #783 BryanS

so, win-win and more private choice

785 BryanS  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:03:47am

re: #781 goddamnedfrank

Unless of course they actually become sick and need care.

do you mean to say that the health exchanges will not provide good care? we’ll see.

Otherwise, if you weren’t following the conversation, I was referring to dropping coverage after the exchanges are up and the legislation is in place to subsidize insurance purchases by individuals buying in the exchange.

786 BryanS  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:07:14am

re: #784 engineer dog

so, win-win and more private choice

Possibly. The other big gotcha is that the government is dictating a lot about what it considers a valid plan. So we may end up with near 100% the same plans, just with a choice of administrators.

Basically, the companies in the exchange have to provide coverage to very exacting standards set by the government. If all the plans are exactly the same, your choice really is only in who your administrator is. The insurance companies essentially act like government contractors offering the exact same service.

787 dog philosopher  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:07:43am

well, BryanS, thanks for a very enlightening discussion

and thank you very much for sticking with me despite my being a relentlessly annoying pain in the ass

788 BryanS  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:09:19am

re: #787 engineer dog

well, BryanS, thanks for a very enlightening discussion

and thank you very much for sticking with me despite my being a relentlessly annoying pain in the ass

heh. no problem. I like talking about the health care issue—it’s something I’ve followed closely.

789 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:19:33am

re: #610 brookly red

in the end all will be forced into public option… that is and always was the plan.

lol wingnut

790 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:20:52am

Watch tonight’s episode of the Daily Show. It’s excellent.

They had some clip of the Faux News morons including that lunatic Michelle Malkin making a big deal about Obama appearing on The View. Some other wingnut pundits say how it demeans the office of the president.

Turns out George and Laura Bush were on Dr. Phil. Here’s an article from the boot lickers over at Weekly Standard:

The Bushes Do Dr. Phil
And wouldn’t you know it? They’re just like you!
BY David Skinner
September 29, 2004 5:00 PM

Wing nuttery is a mental illness.

791 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 3:54:32am

re: #635 marjoriemoon

Ok, but he did a lot of things illegally. His whole reign was a torment. We can’t go into every totalitarian country and make it right. He has to have either attacked us or we have knowledge that he will attack us. That’s how the rules work. I mean, for the U.S. to go a war.

Why? Should people sit on their hands when they see their neighbor beating his wife and kids? We worry and scream about the millions that might possibly die due to global climate change but pretend that nothing is going on while millions suffer and die right before our eyes. It’s pathetic, weak, and shameful.

792 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 6:05:08am

re: #791 RogueOne

We lack the actual temporal power and ability, Rogue. Not to mention that it often doesn’t work.

Millions more suffer and die from basic lack of food and medicine than suffer and die from totalitarian dictators.

What’s your actual plan for us fixing every other country in the world? How does this work out?

793 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 9:41:32am

re: #792 Obdicut

The only thing we lack is the will because, like I said, people are weak and pathetic.

I don’t have a “plan” but I do know doing something, anything, is better than the status quo. How many millions have died in N. Korea alone during the last 50 years? Think the worlds plan is working very well? I don’t.

794 joest73  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:32:01am

re: #78 joest73

I hope Matthews starts to get tough on everyone again. Who wants to watch another Olbermann, Maddow, or Hannity show filled with talking points from either side.

I also enjoyed watching Juan Williams fill in for Bill O’Reilly tonight.

Well I guess Matthews got the memo before the 7pm show that he was a little tough on Howard Dean. The segment was retaped for the 7pm show.

Chris Matthews Retapes Sherrod Segment For 7PM Hardball Rerun After 5PM Flap

795 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 3:31:48pm

re: #793 RogueOne

The world doesn’t have a plan, Rogue. You’re talking nonsense. The plan of “invade everywhere and make it better” is no better than the current mishmash of plans.

796 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 12:25:09am

re: #791 RogueOne

Why? Should people sit on their hands when they see their neighbor beating his wife and kids? We worry and scream about the millions that might possibly die due to global climate change but pretend that nothing is going on while millions suffer and die right before our eyes. It’s pathetic, weak, and shameful.

let me guess, you really want us to do something ANYTHING, pull out all the stops, expend all resources, but you don’t want to raise taxes to do it


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