ADL Opposes Park51 Community Center

US News • Views: 17,779

Today the Anti-Defamation League surprisingly and inexplicably released a statement opposing the Park51 community center: Statement On Islamic Community Center Near Ground Zero.

Proponents of the Islamic Center may have every right to build at this site, and may even have chosen the site to send a positive message about Islam. The bigotry some have expressed in attacking them is unfair, and wrong. But ultimately this is not a question of rights, but a question of what is right. In our judgment, building an Islamic Center in the shadow of the World Trade Center will cause some victims more pain – unnecessarily – and that is not right.

For a civil rights organization to take the position that feelings are more important than civil rights is, frankly, stunning.

And it’s even more stunning that the ADL acknowledges the open bigotry of many Park51 opponents, but still very publicly supports them.

Humorist Will Rogers once said about the repeal of Prohibition, “Repeal is all right, but the wrong people are for it.” In this case, the wrong people are against Park51, and if Abe Foxman and the ADL can’t keep their personal feelings out of the issue, they should have just kept quiet instead of handing the Bigot Brigade a public relations gift. What a disgrace.

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470 comments
1 Four More Tears  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:32:00am

Huh???

2 Sam N  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:33:53am

Yeah, in general this seems like a propaganda victory for extremist Muslims.

3 Randall Gross  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:35:19am

ADL's gone off the rails on this one for me. They have their own bias that they seem unable to get by.

4 Four More Tears  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:35:51am

A look at their banner tells me..
Image: top_slogan_750.gif
"to secure justice and fair treatment to all."

fail

5 webevintage  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:36:58am

Wow.

6 sffilk  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:37:31am

This is one case where I'm left totally speechless.

7 Aziz Poonawalla  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:38:35am

This sort of thing causes me problems of a different sort. I've got triumphalist emails from friends in Pakistan who have long argued (fashionably) that america is evil and a menace to the world (I confess that I dont always modulate my own exceptionalism well, which rubs them the wrong way).

the gist anyway is simple. "You're a fool and wrong to argue that western ideals are universal - they are mere propaganda"

"you're a tool - a muslim uncle Tom"

"do you still think that Afghanistan isn't a War against Islam?"

sigh. im withdrawing for a while from that sort of debate. I just cant win in the current news cycle.

8 webevintage  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:39:23am
In our judgment, building an Islamic Center in the shadow of the World Trade Center will cause some victims more pain – unnecessarily – and that is not right.

and none of these folks have still explained why a Mosque 3 blocks away from Ground Zero will cause pain BUT building great big buildings to make money on top of sacred group is not painful.

9 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:39:34am

What really, really, really, really burns me up about this is their statement that the feelings of the victims matter most of all.

As if there were no Muslim victims of 9/11.

There were.

I guess they don't count.

10 lawhawk  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:39:50am

There's no but in the 1st Amendment. You can't say on the one hand that you are for the 1st Amendment and on the other say that it is inapplicable because it would be insensitive to others. That goes against the very spirit of the 1st.

This is a flawed argument.

11 albusteve  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:40:21am

intolerance
tolerance
they all look the same to me...
what's interesting is the ADLs complete disregard for the law

12 Sam N  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:41:10am

re: #2 Sam N

in case anyone misinterprets my comment:

"This is a strange war we're fighting against Islamist terrorism. We must fight the terrorists with alacrity, but at the same time we must understand that what the terrorists seek is a clash of civilizations. We must do everything possible to avoid giving them propaganda victories in their attempt to create a cosmic war between Judeo-Christian civilization and Muslim civilization. The fight is not between the West and Islam; it is between modernists of all monotheist faiths, on the one hand, and the advocates of a specific strain of medievalist Islam, on the other. If we as a society punish Muslims of good faith, Muslims of good faith will join the other side. It's not that hard to understand. I'm disappointed that the ADL doesn't understand this. "

From Jeffrey Goldberg: [Link: www.theatlantic.com...]

13 engineer cat  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:41:20am

building an Islamic Center in the shadow of the World Trade Center

perhaps mr foxman should measure the area where the shadow falls and declare it a non freedom of religion zone

14 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:41:55am

re: #12 Sam N

I wish he'd included the secular as part of the fight, but oh well.

15 Aziz Poonawalla  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:42:10am

I can almost excuse the ADL in one sense, though. They are a *Jewish civil rights organization* and perhaps from their perspewctive the civil rights and security of the Jewish community is stronger if those of the muslim community are lessened.

I am not saying I agree or am not profoundly disappointed. But i have to admit that the ADL's reason for existence - the Holocaust - does reasonably cause their focus to be on Jewish persecution. The purpose of teh ADL is to protect Jews; muslims cant expect other people to do heavy lifting on our behalf.

This is a failure of the muslim community first and foremost. Blaming the ADL is pointless here. Anyway, have muslim orgs ever taken a stand against persecution of jews? sometimes, yes, but hardly consistently.

civil rights are tribal. Thats the reality.

16 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:42:33am

re: #10 lawhawk

There's no but in the 1st Amendment. You can't say on the one hand that you are for the 1st Amendment and on the other say that it is inapplicable because it would be insensitive to others. That goes against the very spirit of the 1st.

This is a flawed argument.

Right. In this sense, there is no right not to be offended.

17 Sam N  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:42:52am

re: #14 Obdicut

Me too.

18 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:43:00am

re: #15 azizhp

civil rights are tribal. Thats the reality.

No. That would be the exact opposite of reality.

19 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:43:38am

What. The. Fuck.

The ADL?!?!?

I'm fucking speechless. Enraged, but speechless.

20 Aziz Poonawalla  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:43:44am

re: #18 Obdicut

I guess Im just feeling cynical. its not been a good month.

21 Coracle  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:45:13am

Disappointed in the ADL for this one.

22 lawhawk  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:45:20am

re: #8 webevintage

To be fair, there were some groups of victims relatives that wanted no construction on the site - to treat the whole site as a memorial and museum. Some want the 2 million tons of debris to be brought out of Fresh Kills and back to Ground Zero or another solemn site because they don't want the possibility of remains to be located above a former landfill. Those opinions were duly noted and construction was approved by the Port Authority and NY and NJ along with Silverstein Properties.

Personally, I wanted to see the towers rebuilt, but failing that option, I backed Sir Norman Foster's master plan design which I felt was superior to that of Libeskind (whose master plan was eventually chosen).

23 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:45:39am

I just don't get it.....

Flat out don't get it...

24 lawhawk  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:45:55am

re: #13 engineer dog

Shadow of Ground Zero? Considering that the WTC could be seen from 40 miles away, it's a long shadow indeed.

25 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:46:56am

re: #20 azizhp

I guess Im just feeling cynical. its not been a good month.

If civil rights were tribal the Civil Rights movement would have never occurred, or at least never been successful.

26 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:47:18am

I'm thinking the next time someone protests the building of a synagogue the ADL won't be able to comment on that opposition as they've just shot their credibility in the nads.

27 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:47:20am

re: #19 Fozzie Bear

Also:

Everyone write to the ADL.

I did.

They can't know how you feel unless you tell them.

28 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:48:55am

re: #10 lawhawk

There's no but in the 1st Amendment. You can't say on the one hand that you are for the 1st Amendment and on the other say that it is inapplicable because it would be insensitive to others. That goes against the very spirit of the 1st.

This is a flawed argument.

As usual, the "buts" in the Constitution are written in invisible ink, discernible only to the likes of Sarah Palin and Bobby Spencer.

Why, if you do a black-light examination of that document, or just hold it up to a candle (careful! wouldn't want to burn the thing!), the words "Jesus Christ, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, is my personal savior with whom I have long conversations over pints of pale ale" are visible throughout.

29 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:49:14am
....ultimately this is not a question of rights, but a question of what is right. In our judgment, building an Islamic Center in the shadow of the World Trade Center will cause some victims more pain – unnecessarily – and that is not right.


How about this?

....ultimately this is not a question of rights, but a question of what is right. In our judgment, building an Islamic Center in the shadow of the World Trade Center drawing cartoons of the prophet Mohammed will cause some victims more pain – unnecessarily – and that is not right.


Putting hurt feeelings above Constitutional rights is a very bad idea. Even asking people to voluntarily waive their Constitutional rights is a very bad idea.

30 engineer cat  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:49:15am

re: #24 lawhawk

Shadow of Ground Zero? Considering that the WTC could be seen from 40 miles away, it's a long shadow indeed.

and considering that it's become a metaphorical shadow that seems to spread intolerance, it has grown too large for my comfort

31 engineer cat  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:52:21am

re: #28 Cato the Elder

As usual, the "buts" in the Constitution are written in invisible ink, discernible only to the likes of Sarah Palin and Bobby Spencer.

Why, if you do a black-light examination of that document, or just hold it up to a candle (careful! wouldn't want to burn the thing!), the words "Jesus Christ, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, is my personal savior with whom I have long conversations over pints of pale ale" are visible throughout.

heh

jesus whispers the original intent of the founding fathers in their ears whenever moses takes a bathroom break

32 zendette  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:53:23am

Looks like Jewish bloggers are also appalled by the adl's statement.

33 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:55:59am

re: #15 azizhp

I can almost excuse the ADL in one sense, though. They are a *Jewish civil rights organization* and perhaps from their perspewctive the civil rights and security of the Jewish community is stronger if those of the muslim community are lessened.

If that's their perspective, they're profoundly shortsighted. If they have not considered that perspective and thought better of it (which seems to be the case), they're still shortsighted. I agree with what you said on your site:

The Anti-Defamation League has betrayed itself and its own principles, by coming out against the Park 51 project (which is still being characterized incorrectly as the "ground zero mosque"). Their press release (in full below) is even worse than the denunciation of the project by Sarah Palin or Newt Gingrich, because they explicitly concede that the muslim community has the right to build - but they then argue that rights don't matter. This is an astonishing position for a civil rights organization to take, and one that undermines their own moral authority.
34 Kefirah  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:56:01am

re: #15 azizhp

the problem is that if you take your argument to its farthest point, we [jews] are exactly what the antisemites say we are: concerned only for the furtherance of our own people and our own interests [israel potentially included].

yes, antisemitism is specifically mentioned in the a.d.l's charter. but that doesn't excuse the blatant hypocrisy. the anti.defamation league would be perfectly happy if a synagogue or jewish community center were built near the sites where jews were forcibly expelled from middle eastern countries following the creation of israel. they'd laud it as a sign that wounds are healing.

rights are for all people.

hypocrisy doesn't help the a.d.l's cause at all, and frankly it will only feed zionist conspiracies around the world.

so, besides the rank stench of hypocritical policy, the backsplash adds its own sulfurous smell to things.

i'm very disappointed.

35 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:56:31am

re: #32 zendette

Looks like Jewish bloggers are also appalled by the adl's statement.

I'm not thrilled with that website.

36 Lidane  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:57:05am

re: #19 Fozzie Bear

I'm fucking speechless. Enraged, but speechless.

Yeah, this.

I can't even begin to wrap my head around this douchebaggery. It just makes no sense.

37 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:57:11am

re: #35 Gus 802

I'm not thrilled with that website.

But I do disagree with the ADL here.

38 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:57:43am

re: #24 lawhawk

Shadow of Ground Zero? Considering that the WTC could be seen from 40 miles away, it's a long shadow indeed.

Hell, on a clear day, you can see that shadow in Florida.

In fact, the Koran-burners use it to tell the time when they're due to strike the match.

39 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:58:29am

re: #9 Obdicut

What really, really, really, really burns me up about this is their statement that the feelings of the victims matter most of all.

As if there were no Muslim victims of 9/11.

There were.

I guess they don't count.

I'd be interested in asking the surviving family members of those Muslims that were killed/ injured on 9/11 what they think.

40 Aziz Poonawalla  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:58:42am

re: #34 Kefirah

the problem is that if you take your argument to its farthest point, we [jews] are exactly what the antisemites say we are: concerned only for the furtherance of our own people and our own interests [israel potentially included].

thatsthe optics, agreed. I am doing my best to fight back against that perception. This is feeding muslim anti-semitism in various forums and listservs and Im doing what i can.

i'll be mining this thread for examples of Jewish voices rebuking the ADL, so keep em coming. every bit of ammo helps.

41 Aziz Poonawalla  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:59:46am

blatant self-promotion: here's my post on the issue at City of Brass.

42 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 11:59:50am

OT:

Iceweasel left for Scotland this afternoon.

Mourn the loss, America.

Scotland, rejoice!

43 Kefirah  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:00:31pm

re: #40 azizhp

the tablet magazine article was clearly opposed to this move. that's a good, solid start. the problem with bloggers is that you need to vet them before linking to a rabidly antisemitic forum, because inevitably some troll with too much time on his hands will scroll through and find some tidbit, be it a pro.security fence entry or an article about the flotilla, post it, and fuel the fire.

44 Aziz Poonawalla  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:00:58pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

Putting hurt feeelings above Constitutional rights is a very bad idea. Even asking people to voluntarily waive their Constitutional rights is a very bad idea.

damn well said, man. its exactly the argument I made to fellow muslims about the cartoons/south park.

those arguments are being thrown in my face over the Park51 project now, of course.

45 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:01:05pm

yeah, the ADL really needs to reconsider this. logically this time.

46 Kronocide  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:01:55pm

This seems hypocritical. One of the right's key weapons against the left is that they decide too much on feelings.

This is exactly what the ADL has done.

47 Kefirah  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:02:07pm

re: #44 azizhp

by the way:

kol hakavod, b'hatzlacha, and a thousand other laudatory phrases for being a moderate muslim voice. exceptionally pleased to make your acquaintance.

48 Aziz Poonawalla  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:02:48pm

re: #47 Kefirah

alhamdolillah, and thank you. I try, but I've failed and fallen short in the past.

49 darthstar  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:02:54pm

Jstreet blog has a good response on this subject.
JStreet's president's statement in full:

The principle at stake in the Cordoba House controversy goes to the heart of American democracy and the value we place on freedom of religion. Should one religious group in this country be treated differently than another? We believe the answer is no.

As Mayor Bloomberg has said, proposing a church or a synagogue for that site would raise no questions. The Muslim community has an equal right to build a community center wherever it is legal to do so. We would hope the American Jewish community would be at the forefront of standing up for the freedom and equality of a religious minority looking to exercise its legal rights in the United States, rather than casting aspersions on its funders and giving in to the fear-mongerers and pandering politicians urging it to relocate.

What better ammunition to feed the Osama Bin Laden’s of the world and their claim of anti-Muslim bias in the United States as they seek to whip up global jihad than to hold this proposal for a Muslim religious center to a different and tougher standard than other religious institutions would be.

50 Kronocide  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:03:11pm

Is the ADL coming to Rauf/Park's aid since they've clearly been defamed?

51 Kefirah  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:03:25pm

re: #48 azizhp

try, try, try. that's all we can do, brother. all we can do.

52 Zendette  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:04:08pm

re: #37 Gus 802

I used it as an example that even there they were showing dissent with the ADL's statement. I think the site carries a large variety of Jewish blogs, not aimed at specific politics and policies, but I could be wrong.

53 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:04:47pm

The ADL, the ADL,
they think that religious freedom is swell.
It's so swell, I swear by the beard of Moses,
you could build a shul on the Mount of Noses.
But a mosque in the shadow of Ground Zero?
That's evil oppression well worthy of Nero.

Copyright © 2010 Cato the Elder

54 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:05:19pm

How long after 9/11 do we have to wait before we stop consulting the families of victims of a tragedy what we should do on policy grounds.

The 9/11 families had a fundamental right to not be violently deprived of their families. That right was violated, and it can't be un-violated. I grieve for their loss, but honestly, I don't give a flying fuck what they think about the location of mosques, the war, or any other issue.

They represent an infinitesimally small portion of the population. Why do they occupy such a pedestal?

55 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:06:10pm

re: #52 Zendette

I used it as an example that even there they were showing dissent with the ADL's statement. I think the site carries a large variety of Jewish blogs, not aimed at specific politics and policies, but I could be wrong.

I know. Just pointing out a technicality regarding that site within the context of something that occurred earlier this week in an attempt to slander Charles -- something which they allowed to be linked there.

56 b_sharp  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:08:08pm

re: #10 lawhawk

There's no but in the 1st Amendment. You can't say on the one hand that you are for the 1st Amendment and on the other say that it is inapplicable because it would be insensitive to others. That goes against the very spirit of the 1st.

This is a flawed argument.

Damned lawyer throwing logic into the mix. Hurumph.

57 Kragar  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:10:57pm

Don't you love when someone makes a change that no one tells you about and then your boss comes in and asks what you did wrong?

Always on a fucking Friday too.

58 Zendette  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:11:44pm

re: #55 Gus 802

Gus, it's hard to track all the blogs an aggregator (sp?) carries. My posts have appeared there, but that doesn't mean I agree with much of what appears.

I've been a reader and fan of LGF and Charles since I discovered them ~late 2001. I used to find it too right wing here, and some of the crazies scared me, but I liked his style and his news.

Once Charles broke with the Right, I only gained more respect for him. I wouldn't intentionally link to anyone who slandered him.

59 Michael McBacon  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:11:48pm

I wonder how Abe feels about the EDL.

60 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:12:25pm

re: #44 azizhp

damn well said, man. its exactly the argument I made to fellow muslims about the cartoons/south park.

those arguments are being thrown in my face over the Park51 project now, of course.

Kudos to you. Being offended is part of living in a free and open society. There's just no way around that.

61 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:14:41pm

re: #58 Zendette

Gus, it's hard to track all the blogs an aggregator (sp?) carries. My posts have appeared there, but that doesn't mean I agree with much of what appears.

I've been a reader and fan of LGF and Charles since I discovered them ~late 2001. I used to find it too right wing here, and some of the crazies scared me, but I liked his style and his news.

Once Charles broke with the Right, I only gained more respect for him. I wouldn't intentionally link to anyone who slandered him.

An indiscriminate aggregator is worthless. Any aggregator that links to Avideditor and Atlasshrugs is indiscriminate (unless it intentionally collects trash).

62 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:15:06pm

re: #35 Gus 802

I'm not thrilled with that website.

jewpi.com is nothing but a collection of everyone who follows @jewishbloggers on twitter. If Pamela Geller follows @jewishbloggers then her stuff will get posted at jewpi.com

63 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:15:22pm

re: #54 Fozzie Bear

How long after 9/11 do we have to wait before we stop consulting the families of victims of a tragedy what we should do on policy grounds.

It's not a "policy ground" and I would never tell them (the 9/11 victims/ survivors) how long they should or shouldn't grieve and be emotional about anything associated with that day. They have as much right to oppose this as do people that support it, and I bet they don't give a flying fuck what "you" (not personal "you" btw) think about those things either!


Why do they occupy such a pedestal?

If you can't answer that yourself, I'm sorry!

Do you also hold Pearl Harbor survivors in such disregard? I know two, and I sure don't

64 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:16:41pm

re: #58 Zendette

Gus, it's hard to track all the blogs an aggregator (sp?) carries. My posts have appeared there, but that doesn't mean I agree with much of what appears.

I've been a reader and fan of LGF and Charles since I discovered them ~late 2001. I used to find it too right wing here, and some of the crazies scared me, but I liked his style and his news.

Once Charles broke with the Right, I only gained more respect for him. I wouldn't intentionally link to anyone who slandered him.

Understood. Don't worry about it.

65 Bob Levin  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:24:43pm

I can't say I'm disappointed, because I'm not surprised. There's a trajectory of institutions, that as soon as they become entrenched or too big, they begin to do the opposite of their original intention. The UN becomes a force for discord, schools increase ignorance, the court system begets injustice, religious institutions keep people from becoming spiritual, an on and on. The ADL has lost its way a long time ago, and from what I've seen, it's going to be a long and confusing way back to its center, if it even gets there.

I think the ADL sees this mosque as a failure on their part--that they are failing in their mission of Never Again. There is no question that antisemitism is rising in the world, and you can see, in this instance, the confusion within their mission and within their response to this rising tide of hatred. They've assumed the role of a bastion against hatred directed towards Jews, and this bastion is failing every day--in fact, it may be part of the fuel for this rise.

This is all part of our need to re-examine our institutions, all of them, and get back to some very basic questions about what it means to be a Jew.

66 Spider Mensch  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:25:02pm

re: #63 sattv4u2

How long after 9/11 do we have to wait before we stop consulting the families of victims of a tragedy what we should do on policy grounds.

It's not a "policy ground" and I would never tell them (the 9/11 victims/ survivors) how long they should or shouldn't grieve and be emotional about anything associated with that day. They have as much right to oppose this as do people that support it, and I bet they don't give a flying fuck what "you" (not personal "you" btw) think about those things either!


Why do they occupy such a pedestal?

If you can't answer that yourself, I'm sorry!

Do you also hold Pearl Harbor survivors in such disregard? I know two, and I sure don't

ah the bravery the anonimity of the internet gives us...even if you agree with the statement..could you argue it face to face with one who lost a parent, or a child that day? maybe he could...don't think I could though...just my thoughts...but basically if i were a victim of 9/11 tragedy..I think the mosque question I would hope I would feel indifference to..but I can't say for sure. you have to walk in the other man's shoes sometimes I suppose....

67 davesax  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:26:13pm
And it’s even more stunning that the ADL acknowledges the open bigotry of many Park51 opponents, but still very publicly supports them.

Huh? They never say they supports the bigots who oppose the Mosque at ground zero.

Plenty of New Yorkers are uncomfortable with this project, but that doesn't mean they stand with Pamela Geller or Robert Spencer.

The narrative established by you and many in the media is, "You either support this project, or you're a bigot," and that's just bullshit.

68 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:26:16pm

So, while busily trying to subvert the First Amendment, Sarah Palin and New Gingrich (to name but two assholes) are silent as the Republicans in Congress vote against the 9/11 Health Bill, which would pay for long-term care needed by victims of 9/11.

Youtube Video

Can you eat as much as you would like to puke?

69 Spider Mensch  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:26:59pm

ack! meant "relation of a victim from the 9/11 tragedy"*

70 MJ  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:27:09pm

Frankly, I think it's way past time that Abe Foxman retire.

At the same time he engages in this bit of bigotry, he "accepts" Oliver Stone's totally insincere apology.

71 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:27:40pm

re: #69 Spider Mensch

ack! meant "relation of a victim from the 9/11 tragedy"*

understood

72 lawhawk  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:28:33pm

re: #68 Cato the Elder

And many of the same sites on the right (jammie and ace among them) are complaining about how Andrew Weiner blew his stack over yesterday's near party line vote against the bill - claiming he looks childish and on a rant - ignoring that the vote against the bill is costing Ground Zero workers additional funds for their health situation.

More here.

73 CuriousLurker  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:30:25pm

*SIGH*
That's all I've got right now.

74 Kragar  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:30:43pm

re: #72 lawhawk

And many of the same sites on the right (jammie and ace among them) are complaining about how Andrew Weiner blew his stack over yesterday's near party line vote against the bill - claiming he looks childish and on a rant - ignoring that the vote against the bill is costing Ground Zero workers additional funds for their health situation.

More here.

They're too busy blaming the Dems, saying they tried to sneak amnesty into the bill.

75 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:31:20pm

re: #73 CuriousLurker

*SIGH*
That's all I've got right now.

The Moor's last sigh?

I hope not.

76 b_sharp  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:31:46pm

re: #73 CuriousLurker

*SIGH*
That's all I've got right now.

I'd have to agree with you and all I can add is !

so

*SIGH!*

77 darthstar  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:32:38pm

re: #68 Cato the Elder

So, while busily trying to subvert the First Amendment, Sarah Palin and New Gingrich (to name but two assholes) are silent as the Republicans in Congress vote against the 9/11 Health Bill, which would pay for long-term care needed by victims of 9/11.


[Video]Can you eat as much as you would like to puke?

Weiner Rips Republicans New Asshole. Film at eleven.

78 Kragar  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:33:45pm

North Korea's failed World Cup footballers undergo public mauling

Early this month the players were summoned to an auditorium at the working people's culture palace in Pyongyang, forced onstage and subjected to a six-hour barrage of criticism for their poor performances in South Africa, according to the US-based Radio Free Asia.

Only Jung Tae-se and An Yong-hak were spared a dressing down as they flew directly to Japan, their country of birth and where they play club football, according to an unnamed Chinese businessman the station cites as its source.

The "grand debate" was reportedly witnessed by 400 athletes and sports students, and the country's sports minister. Ri Dong-kyu, a sports commentator for the North's state-run Korean Central TV, led the reprimands, pointing out the shortcomings of each player, South Korean media said.

In true Stalinist style, the players were then "invited" to mount verbal attacks on their coach, Jung-hun.

The coach was reportedly accused of betraying the leader's son, Kim Jong-un, who is expected to take over from his ailing father as leader of the world's only communist dynasty.

Radio Free Asia quoted the source as saying he had heard that Kim Jung-hun had been sent to work on a building site and there were fears for his safety.

79 joest73  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:34:37pm

re: #67 davesax

Huh? They never say they supports the bigots who oppose the Mosque at ground zero.

Plenty of New Yorkers are uncomfortable with this project, but that doesn't mean they stand with Pamela Geller or Robert Spencer.

The narrative established by you and many in the media is, "You either support this project, or you're a bigot," and that's just bullshit.

Plenty of people around the country are uncomfortable with the project. Nobody is saying that the center can't be opened in another location in NYC..... maybe they should respect the site and look to locate the center elsewhere.

80 darthstar  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:35:18pm

Some great pics of Manta Rays leaping up to 9ft out of the water.

Article here.

81 lawhawk  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:35:19pm

re: #74 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

It's a bill that's been languishing in Congress for 8 years. This is the latest attempt to bring a 9/11 workers bill to the floor for a vote.

It's simply inexcusable - and the vote should have been done on the straight bill long ago. Weiner was absolutely right to go off on the GOP for not backing the bill.

82 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:35:20pm

re: #77 darthstar

Weiner Rips Republicans New Asshole. Film at eleven.

I never get tired of liking Weiner.

83 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:35:36pm

re: #68 Cato the Elder

At the heart of the debate was a procedural maneuver made by Democrats to suspend the rules before consideration of the James Zadroga 9/11 Health and Compensation Act. The move allowed leadership to block potential GOP amendments to the measure (there was worry that Republicans would attach something overtly partisan in hopes that it could pass on the otherwise widely-popular measure)

84 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:35:53pm

re: #79 joest73

Plenty of people around the country are uncomfortable with the project. Nobody is saying that the center can't be opened in another location in NYC... maybe they should respect the site and look to locate the center elsewhere.

Why? Because it might offend somebody?

85 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:36:02pm

re: #79 joest73

What do you think should be done for the Muslim victims of 9/11?

Maybe some form of community center could be opened a few blocks away from the site of 9/11, in their memory and honor?

86 eneri  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:37:23pm

I agree with the ADL. This is in poor taste.

87 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:38:07pm

re: #79 joest73

Plenty of people around the country are uncomfortable with the project. Nobody is saying that the center can't be opened in another location in NYC... maybe they should respect the site and look to locate the center elsewhere.

Have you ever heard of tyranny by the majority? Regardless, we can't have building projects let alone religious buildings subject to the approval and commentary of the American adult population.

88 rieux  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:38:19pm

*sighI

I thought the point Will Rogers was making was that repeal of Prohibition was right despite the fact that the wrong people were against it.

I'd suggest that rights don't necessarily always trump what's right. I may have the free speech right to be rude and insulting to you, but it's still the wrong thing to do

89 Bob Levin  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:38:45pm

I should have added to my list of institutions in mission reverse--Congress can no longer solve even the simplest of problems.

90 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:39:36pm

re: #67 davesax

Okay then, if not there, where in New York City can they build their Community Center with a Prayer Room? Specifics, no little platitudes. And because land prices are fairly high in New York, would you help these people get the money nesscessary to buy a whole new plot of land somewhere else?

91 joest73  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:39:49pm

re: #85 Obdicut

What do you think should be done for the Muslim victims of 9/11?

Maybe some form of community center could be opened a few blocks away from the site of 9/11, in their memory and honor?

They should be remembered like every other victim. I am a catholic and I don't want special treatment for the catholics that died that day.

92 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:40:34pm

re: #86 eneri

I agree with the ADL. This is in poor taste.

Would it be in poor taste if they leased space to an Islamic association or even a small worship center within One World Trade Center once the project is completed? Where do you draw the line? By this logic then you would not allow any Islamic groups to lease any office space at One World Trade Center.

93 davesax  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:41:18pm

Oh, re: #90 ProLifeLiberal

ProLifeLiberal:

Down ding away!

94 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:41:21pm

re: #87 Gus 802

Have you ever heard of tyranny by the majority? Regardless, we can't have building projects let alone religious buildings subject to the approval and commentary of the American adult population.

umm,, actually, it happens every day
communities (American adults) decide how high/wide a structure can be, how much signage can be outside of a retail facility
What style/ size house are and are not allowed in sub divisions

95 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:41:58pm

re: #91 joest73

They should be remembered like every other victim. I am a catholic and I don't want special treatment for the catholics that died that day.

Then what did you mean by 'respecting the site'?

And what site, by the way? You know that this project is blocks away from the site of the twin towers, right?

96 CuriousLurker  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:42:07pm

re: #75 Cato the Elder

The Moor's last sigh?

I hope not.

Nah, I just know this isn't the end of it. Between this, the national trend toward open & unapologetic intolerance & bigotry in certain sectors, and the ridiculous points being made about race downstairs I'm just... I'm tired of all the negativity at the moment. I need to step away from it for a while and try to put things back in perspective.

97 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:44:25pm

re: #94 sattv4u2

umm,, actually, it happens every day
communities (American adults) decide how high/wide a structure can be, how much signage can be outside of a retail facility
What style/ size house are and are not allowed in sub divisions

Only if it's according to the city statutes. Then it would have to go before something like a planning commission. My point is that this is not done by nationwide vote. Landmark has approved this project on their end. If they want to prevent any future construction of Islamic centers near ground zero then they would have to rezone the area so that it state: No Muslims/Islamic oriented building use.

I wish them luck with that because that wouldn't cut Constitutional muster nor judgment from the SCOTUS.

98 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:44:30pm

re: #78 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm not sure I buy that. But, who knows with 'Lil Kim.

99 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:45:30pm

re: #96 CuriousLurker


A lolcat is often helpful.

Image: 129006686624947653.jpg

100 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:45:42pm

re: #97 Gus 802

Only if it's according to the city statutesThen it would have to go before something like a planning commission.

Exactly, which are written by and voted on by (wait for it) "the American adult population."

101 b_sharp  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:46:07pm

re: #80 darthstar

Some great pics of Manta Rays leaping up to 9ft out of the water.

Article here.

Who are they fleeing from?

102 Kragar  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:46:12pm

Now I see a ton of comic potential in this:

Oregon Tea Party vs. 4-Chan

The Oregon Tea Party's official statement is "We will not be intimidated by you basement dwellers."

Hillarity will ensue.

103 b_sharp  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:46:26pm

re: #82 Obdicut

I never get tired of liking Weiner.

Too easy.

104 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:47:11pm

re: #65 Bob Levin

This is all part of our need to re-examine our institutions, all of them, and get back to some very basic questions about what it means to be a Jew, Christian, Muslim, Mormon, Buddhist, etc....

Well, you were addressing the ADL, but I truly admire your post there.

105 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:47:30pm

re: #89 Bob Levin

I should have added to my list of institutions in mission reverse--Congress can no longer solve even the simplest of problems.

The lower house can do quite a lot, but the senate is a major f*** up at the moment more or less. it's just that you can't have an effective system when things are this partisan and yet we don't just let a simple 51% majority of our elected representatives be enough to over come minority opposition.

106 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:47:52pm

You either support the Constitution's guarantees of religious freedom, or you think it's a good idea to carve out special exceptions for certain groups, and give them diminished status under the law.

You can't have it both ways.

107 joest73  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:47:58pm

re: #90 ProLifeLiberal

Okay then, if not there, where in New York City can they build their Community Center with a Prayer Room? Specifics, no little platitudes. And because land prices are fairly high in New York, would you help these people get the money nesscessary to buy a whole new plot of land somewhere else?

If needed the city/govt. should help them find another location.

108 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:48:24pm

re: #100 sattv4u2

Only if it's according to the city statutesThen it would have to go before something like a planning commission.

Exactly, which are written by and voted on by (wait for it) "the American adult population."

You can't apply apply a law that isn't written. NYC does not create zoning restriction based on popular votes.

And to recap, I was responding to this:

#79 joest73

Plenty of people around the country are uncomfortable with the project. Nobody is saying that the center can't be opened in another location in NYC... maybe they should respect the site and look to locate the center elsewhere.

Did you catch that? Joest said, "Plenty of people around the country are uncomfortable with the project."

109 CuriousLurker  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:48:28pm

Thank you. You have no idea how much I needed that today. On second thought, maybe you do. :)

110 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:48:56pm

re: #107 joest73

Why?

111 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:48:59pm

re: #107 joest73

Well, sorry to disappoint you, but that's not going to happen. The Mayor of NY supports the project and so does the Downtown community board.

Bigots are going to lose this one.

112 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:49:09pm
And it’s even more stunning that the ADL acknowledges the open bigotry of many Park51 opponents, but still very publicly supports them.

I don't believe that making decisions based on who else might support/oppose a particular issue is an appropriate way to come to our own conclusions. If we oppose everything that might possibly be supported by people we dislike then that narrows our options down quite a bit doesn't it?

113 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:49:19pm

OT , (now that we're over 100 posts)

My 16 year old son asked for Halo Reach for his b'day (he already has 2 other Halo games)

He's asking for the special (or limited) edition

$150!!! (his games usually run $50-60)

114 b_sharp  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:49:40pm

re: #96 CuriousLurker

Nah, I just know this isn't the end of it. Between this, the national trend toward open & unapologetic intolerance & bigotry in certain sectors, and the ridiculous points being made about race downstairs I'm just... I'm tired of all the negativity at the moment. I need to step away from it for a while and try to put things back in perspective.

Don't be gone too long.

115 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:49:54pm

re: #109 CuriousLurker

Please know that I, and every Jewish friend that I've talked to, have all written the ADL to voice our objection to this statement.

116 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:50:00pm

When boards make a decision on a building permit there is always a time alloted for public input. Does anyone know if that time period is over yet?

117 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:50:01pm

re: #107 joest73

If needed the city/govt. should help them find another location.

Ex post facto. That's not going to cut it.

118 CuriousLurker  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:50:33pm

re: #109 CuriousLurker

re: #99 wrenchwench

A lolcat is often helpful.

Image: 129006686624947653.jpg

Um, that "thank you" was for wrenchwench. See? I'm not at the top of my game today.

119 Kragar  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:51:04pm

re: #113 sattv4u2

OT , (now that we're over 100 posts)

My 16 year old son asked for Halo Reach for his b'day (he already has 2 other Halo games)

He's asking for the special (or limited) edition

$150!!! (his games usually run $50-60)

You can get a Codex and 40k Starter set for that, much better investment.

120 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:51:49pm

re: #119 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Unless he wants him moved out of the basement by 30 ;-)

121 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:52:47pm

re: #108 Gus 802

Did you catch that? Joest said, "Plenty of people around the country are uncomfortable with the project."

Yes I did, and they have a right to their opinions just as victims have a right to theirs and the ADL has a right to theirs and proponents of the project have a right to thiers!

I was commeneting to your general statement about how buildings aren't the subject of the American Adult population. For the reasons I stated, I disagree. They are, sometimes in very small doses, sometimes in much larger ones! Ever been in the middle of a major metros airport expansion fight?

122 lawhawk  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:53:25pm

re: #116 RogueOne

The LPC is voting Tuesday. Their public response period may have already ended and the public hearing for the landmarking was already held a few weeks back.

The CB1 has already signaled their approval of the project - and separately voted to not landmark the building involved. That was after several public hearings.

123 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:55:06pm

re: #121 sattv4u2

Did you catch that? Joest said, "Plenty of people around the country are uncomfortable with the project."

Yes I did, and they have a right to their opinions just as victims have a right to theirs and the ADL has a right to theirs and proponents of the project have a right to thiers!

I was commeneting to your general statement about how buildings aren't the subject of the American Adult population. For the reasons I stated, I disagree. They are, sometimes in very small doses, sometimes in much larger ones! Ever been in the middle of a major metros airport expansion fight?

American adult population means by vote of the American people much like a presidential election. There's not such process for building use. Which means polling of all Americans regarding the approval of the Cordoba Center is nothing but fiction.

124 Kragar  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:55:12pm

re: #120 McSpiff

Unless he wants him moved out of the basement by 30 ;-)

SILENCE!

125 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:55:14pm

Ah well ,, BBL ,,, pool time!

126 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:56:03pm

re: #121 sattv4u2

Did you catch that? Joest said, "Plenty of people around the country are uncomfortable with the project."

Yes I did, and they have a right to their opinions just as victims have a right to theirs and the ADL has a right to theirs and proponents of the project have a right to thiers!

I was commeneting to your general statement about how buildings aren't the subject of the American Adult population. For the reasons I stated, I disagree. They are, sometimes in very small doses, sometimes in much larger ones! Ever been in the middle of a major metros airport expansion fight?

On one hand, I agree, on the other I think you're missing a point.

At least in my small corner of the world, the debate usually focuses over usage and design. So it doesn't really matter if its Wal-mart or Costco putting in the next mega mart. And I've never heard concerns that Iranians own too many apartment buildings. The idea of who owns a building, and specifically what religion they are falls far outside the normal public debate.

127 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:56:14pm

re: #122 lawhawk

The LPC is voting Tuesday. Their public response period may have already ended and the public hearing for the landmarking was already held a few weeks back.

The CB1 has already signaled their approval of the project - and separately voted to not landmark the building involved. That was after several public hearings.

Thanks. I wasn't able to get a good answer through any of the google links that were coming up.

128 Bob Levin  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:56:26pm

re: #105 jamesfirecat

I voted in our state primary the other day. Well, voted might be too strong of a word. In all of the pre-election commercials, recorded phone calls from all sides, for many offices, I heard one idea that might have worked, that at least deserved consideration that it might work. On a very long ballot, I made one mark. And the guy lost.

129 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:56:44pm

re: #107 joest73

If needed the city/govt. should help them find another location.

Oh. And that would be unacceptable. If they did that I would advise Park51 to sue for construction and/or damages.

130 blueraven  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:57:11pm

re: #86 eneri

I agree with the ADL. This is in poor taste.

Then so too, by their argument and yours, is our Constitution.

Also./

131 robdouth  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:57:22pm

re: #106 Charles

You either support the Constitution's guarantees of religious freedom, or you think it's a good idea to carve out special exceptions for certain groups, and give them diminished status under the law.

You can't have it both ways.

Does some of the opposition to this Mosque/community center stem from the reports (I don't know if their correct so please let me know) that the Imam behind this is associated with the Gaza flotillas?

132 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:57:36pm

re: #131 robdouth

Does some of the opposition to this Mosque/community center stem from the reports (I don't know if their correct so please let me know) that the Imam behind this is associated with the Gaza flotillas?

Hearsay.

133 lawhawk  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:58:06pm

re: #131 robdouth

The opposition came before the flotilla incident, but intensified after possible links were made between Rauf and the IHH/Perdana.

134 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:58:11pm

re: #128 Bob Levin

I voted in our state primary the other day. Well, voted might be too strong of a word. In all of the pre-election commercials, recorded phone calls from all sides, for many offices, I heard one idea that might have worked, that at least deserved consideration that it might work. On a very long ballot, I made one mark. And the guy lost.

And this single situation that the thing you wanted didn't come out proves our entire system is screwed?

I wanted a public option, but you don't see me saying the fact that we couldn't get one is proof that the entire American Government is a pathetic mess....

135 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:58:16pm

re: #96 CuriousLurker

Nah, I just know this isn't the end of it. Between this, the national trend toward open & unapologetic intolerance & bigotry in certain sectors, and the ridiculous points being made about race downstairs I'm just... I'm tired of all the negativity at the moment. I need to step away from it for a while and try to put things back in perspective.

Try reading "A Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to Al-Medinah and Meccah" by Captain Sir Richard Francis Burton. His enemies called him the ugliest man alive, but his Catholic wife thought he was the most beautiful human she ever saw.

He made the journey in disguise as a Persian doctor of simples and higher medicine.

He told it like he saw it, without fear or favor.

He also translated, out of the depths of his vast knowledge of Arabic, the Book of a Thousand Nights and a Night, in ten volumes.

His messmates in the British Army called him "The White N*gg*r", because he bothered to learn the languages and customs of anyone he encountered.

Here is a partial list of his books:

* Goa and the Blue Mountains (1851)
* Scinde or the Unhappy Valley (1851)
* Sindh and the Races That Inhabit the Valley of the Indus (1851)
* Falconry in the Valley of the Indus (1852)
* A Complete System of Bayonet Exercise (1853)
* Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to Al Madinah and Meccah 3 Vols. (1855-6). See also PDF facsimile
* First Footsteps in East Africa (1856). See also PDF Facsimile .
* The Lake Regions of Central Equatorial Africa (1859)
* The Lake Regions of Central Africa (1860)
* The City of the Saints, Among the Mormons and Across the Rocky Mountains to California (1861)
* Wanderings in West Africa (1863)
* Abeokuta and the Cameroon Mountains (1863)
* A Mission to Gelele, King of Dahomé (1864)
* The Nile Basin (1864) With James McQueen.
* Wit and Wisdom From West Africa (1865)
* Stone Talk (1865)
* The Guide-book. A Pictorial Pilgrimage to Mecca and Medina (1865).
* Explorations of the Highlands of Brazil (1869)
* Letters From the Battlefields of Paraguay (1870)
* Vikram and the Vampire or Tales of Hindu Devilry (1870). See also PDF Facsimile.
* Unexplored Syria (1872)
* Zanzibar (1872)
* Ultima Thule (1872)
* The Lands of Cazembe. Lacerda's Journey to Cazembe in 1798 (1873). Edited and translated by Burton.
* The Captivity of Hans Stade of Hesse, in A.D. 1547-1555, Among the Wild Tribes of Eastern Brazil. Translated by Albert Tootal and annotated by Richard F. Burton.
* A New System of Sword Exercise for Infantry (1876)
* Two Trips to Gorilla Land and the Cataracts of the Congo (1876) See also PDF Facsimile.
* Etruscan Bologna (1876)
* Sind Revisited (1877)
* The Gold Mines of Midian (1878)
* The Land of Midian (revisited) (1879)
* Os Lusiadas (The Lusiads) (two volumes 1880)
* The Kasidah of Haji Abdu El-Yezdi (1880). See also PDF Facsimile.
* A Glance at the Passion-Play (1881).
* To the Gold Coast for Gold 2 Vols. (1883). See also PDF Facsimile.
* The Kama Sutra of Vatsyayana (1883) (with F. F. Arbuthnot).
* Camoens: His Life and His Lusiads (1883)
* Camoens. The Lyricks 2 Vols (1884)
* The Book of the Sword (1884)
* The Book of the Thousand Nights and a Night (ten volumes 1885)
* The Perfumed Garden of the Shaykh Nefzawi (1886)
* The Supplemental Nights to the Thousand Nights and a Night (six volumes 1886 – 1888)
* The Jew, the Gypsy and El Islam (1898)
* The Sentiment of the Sword: A Country-House Dialogue (1911)

I would be interested to know what Glenn Beck thinks of his impartial view of Mormonism.

136 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:58:37pm

re: #130 blueraven

Then so too, by their argument and yours, is our Constitution.

Also./

Hate to keep repeating myself but there is no constitutional right to build a church/mosque/synagogue wherever whatever religious organization chooses.

137 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:59:13pm

re: #136 RogueOne

And?

138 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:59:26pm

re: #136 RogueOne

Hate to keep repeating myself but there is no constitutional right to build a church/mosque/synagogue wherever whatever religious organization chooses.

Is there a constitutional right to deny a religion the ability to build something somewhere because some people's feelings are hurt by it/ are upset?

139 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:59:42pm

re: #135 Cato the Elder

Lookin' at a lolcat is a LOT easier...

140 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 12:59:52pm

re: #137 Obdicut

And?

and stop saying there is?

141 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:00:04pm

re: #83 sattv4u2

At the heart of the debate was a procedural maneuver made by Democrats to suspend the rules before consideration of the James Zadroga 9/11 Health and Compensation Act. The move allowed leadership to block potential GOP amendments to the measure (there was worry that Republicans would attach something overtly partisan in hopes that it could pass on the otherwise widely-popular measure)

Your point being?

When was the last time you perused "Robert's Rules of Order"?

142 robdouth  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:00:09pm

re: #132 Gus 802

Hearsay.

So linking him to the organization that is providing the most support to the Free Gaza Movement is hearsay? It's the first I've heard of these links, but I'm reading through all the links and they seem legit. Why is it unfair to link him with the organization supporting the flotillas?

143 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:00:46pm

re: #140 RogueOne

and stop saying there is?

That's not what people are saying, Rogue.

There cannot be a restriction against one religion that isn't in place for another.

144 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:01:13pm

re: #136 RogueOne

Hate to keep repeating myself but there is no constitutional right to build a church/mosque/synagogue wherever whatever religious organization chooses.

Strawman argument. The right being infringed is to not have the government judge you based on the religion you choose to follow and some are absolutely trying to infringe on that in this case.

If you'd support *any* other religion building there, then opposing this purely due to the fact that Islam is involved is discrimination. No ifs ands or buts.

145 Bob Levin  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:01:28pm

re: #134 jamesfirecat

No, that one situation doesn't prove anything--other than the people who end up running don't seem to have good ideas on how to solve problems. In this election. But do I really have to go to great lengths to have the opinion that Congress in generally ineffective, excessively partisan, and populated by people competent in fund raising and little else?

146 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:01:47pm

re: #138 jamesfirecat

Is there a constitutional right to deny a religion the ability to build something somewhere because some people's feelings are hurt by it/ are upset?

It happens all the time all over the country against a variety of people. The neighborhood gets to decide if the building and the purpose is appropriate. If you don't believe me try to open a liquor store down the street from a school.

147 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:02:22pm

re: #146 RogueOne

It happens all the time all over the country against a variety of people. The neighborhood gets to decide if the building and the purpose is appropriate. If you don't believe me try to open a liquor store down the street from a school.

If the liquor store was blocked because the owner was baptist, you might have something almost resembling a point.

148 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:02:52pm

re: #133 lawhawk

The opposition came before the flotilla incident, but intensified after possible links were made between Rauf and the IHH/Perdana.

Imam Rauf said he is not a member of Perdana. He spoke at one of their meetings -- that's the entire connection.

149 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:02:56pm

re: #141 Cato the Elder

Can we start raising Points of Order on LGF? That might be fun.

150 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:02:59pm

re: #142 robdouth

So linking him to the organization that is providing the most support to the Free Gaza Movement is hearsay? It's the first I've heard of these links, but I'm reading through all the links and they seem legit. Why is it unfair to link him with the organization supporting the flotillas?

If he did in fact support the Free Gaza Movement my first response would be that there is no law against American citizens from supporting that movement. However, so far all we have is hearsay and suppositions based on these alleged associations. Otherwise you're looking to apply the 6th Amendment:

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

In other words: prove it.

151 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:03:06pm

re: #94 sattv4u2

umm,, actually, it happens every day
communities (American adults) decide how high/wide a structure can be, how much signage can be outside of a retail facility
What style/ size house are and are not allowed in sub divisions

... whether Irish need apply, whether blacks get their own water fountains, whether Muslims can build a mosque ...

152 CuriousLurker  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:03:19pm

re: #114 b_sharp

Don't be gone too long.

I won't. I intend to spend the weekend purging the negativity in the only ways I know how: Prayer & meditation, reading, watching an uplifting movie (Ushpizin, the one that Cato recommended, arrived in the mail today), doing something creative design-wise.

This is a stand-up group with a lot of heart. I'm really glad I got to know you all, and I have no doubt you're are more than capable of holding down the fort while I recharge.

Have a great weekend everyone.

153 tnguitarist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:03:34pm

Our Constitution and other laws are in place for a reason. One of those reasons is to keep us from making decisions based on emotions.

154 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:03:51pm

re: #139 wrenchwench

Lookin' at a lolcat is a LOT easier...

Dammit, now you've called me out!

I'm going to create an entire lolcat series based on the life of Burton.

(Right after I finish doing the laundry and finding a paying gig.)

155 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:04:47pm

re: #149 McSpiff

Can we start raising Points of Order on LGF? That might be fun.

The gentleman is not recognized by the chair.

156 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:04:51pm

re: #154 Cato the Elder

I'm assuming you've already seen this, but as a translator you might find it particularly enjoyable... [Link: www.lolcatbible.com...]

157 CuriousLurker  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:04:56pm

re: #115 Obdicut

Please know that I, and every Jewish friend that I've talked to, have all written the ADL to voice our objection to this statement.

Thank you. And please thank your friends on my behalf. See? I feel a little better already. :)

158 robdouth  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:04:59pm

re: #150 Gus 802

In other words: prove it.

You're talking about the level of proof for a conviction and that there is no law against it. Who said there was. There's also no law against opposing someone who holds certain beliefs, but it looks like someone uptop said that the opposition was even before that, and it was cleared up that it is a weak connection so it doesn't matter anyway.

159 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:05:11pm

The really sickening part of this is that if you read what Imam Rauf has written about jihad and extremism, he's exactly the kind of Muslim all these so-called "anti-jihad" people claim they are looking for. He even said outright, "I am a supporter of the state of Israel."

Yet, when a real moderate Muslim shows up, the Bigotry Brigade's smear campaign kicks into overdrive, lying, distorting, and justifying bigotry by playing on people's feelings about 9/11.

160 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:05:17pm

re: #113 sattv4u2

Good kid, smart as hell, great grades, lots of promise, the other games haven't damaged him.

161 tnguitarist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:05:23pm

re: #146 RogueOne

It happens all the time all over the country against a variety of people. The neighborhood gets to decide if the building and the purpose is appropriate. If you don't believe me try to open a liquor store down the street from a school.

That is due to a pre-existing law that says a liquor store cannot be built within x amount feet/miles from the school.

162 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:05:47pm

re: #143 Obdicut

That's not what people are saying, Rogue.

There cannot be a restriction against one religion that isn't in place for another.

Yes, it is what people are saying. The permits are decided on a case by case basis. If it was a question of either a mosque or a christian church and this argument were being held, you would have a point but it's not. Now, if in a couple of months a christian church gets a permit to build the same type of structure then you could argue the mosque builder had their 1st amendment rights violated.

163 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:06:11pm

re: #146 RogueOne

So your contention is people objecting to this community center want no community centers with prayer rooms attached built around the world trade center, and it has nothing to do with it being Muslim?

164 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:06:36pm

re: #158 robdouth

You're talking about the level of proof for a conviction and that there is no law against it. Who said there was. There's also no law against opposing someone who holds certain beliefs, but it looks like someone uptop said that the opposition was even before that, and it was cleared up that it is a weak connection so it doesn't matter anyway.

Well, that's part of my point which is that they would have to prove that their conspiracy is real and based on facts instead of right-wing blogger's rhetoric.

165 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:06:40pm

re: #152 CuriousLurker

I won't. I intend to spend the weekend purging the negativity in the only ways I know how: Prayer & meditation, reading, watching an uplifting movie (Ushpizin, the one that Cato recommended, arrived in the mail today), doing something creative design-wise.

This is a stand-up group with a lot of heart. I'm really glad I got to know you all, and I have no doubt you're are more than capable of holding down the fort while I recharge.

Have a great weekend everyone.

Oh my, I hope I didn't overpraise that movie, else I'll be in for a well-deserved spanking!

Seriously, if your heart does not go out to those characters, I will by you the most expensive four species I can find.

166 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:07:02pm

re: #162 RogueOne

We don't need to wait a couple of months, Rogue. It's blatantly obvious the objection is that they're Muslim.

Are you really, really, really trying to claim it's not obvious?

167 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:07:40pm

re: #147 McSpiff

If the liquor store was blocked because the owner was baptist, you might have something almost resembling a point.

If you had a grasp on building permits you might understand. The neighborhood gets to decide what structures are appropriate. Unless you're suggesting they don't have any property rights involved?

168 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:07:41pm

re: #156 McSpiff

I'm assuming you've already seen this, but as a translator you might find it particularly enjoyable... [Link: www.lolcatbible.com...]

I'm always on the lookout for fresh translayshuns.

169 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:08:15pm

re: #162 RogueOne

That's not even close to how the law works. If the reason for the permit not being given is "you're Muslim", discrimination has occurred. Period.

170 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:08:36pm

re: #153 tnguitarist

Our Constitution and other laws are in place for a reason. One of those reasons is to keep us from making decisions based on emotions.

Hmm, kind of like Wal-mart not being allowed to build in certain areas of the country?

171 CuriousLurker  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:08:41pm

re: #135 Cato the Elder

Try reading "A Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to Al-Medinah and Meccah" by Captain Sir Richard Francis Burton.

Good idea—thank you. It's even available for free through Project Gutenberg.

172 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:09:41pm

re: #167 RogueOne

If you had a grasp on building permits you might understand. The neighborhood gets to decide what structures are appropriate. Unless you're suggesting they don't have any property rights involved?

I want to get this straight, because you're either being difficult or you genuinely have no concept of how these things work. If a community refused to grant building permits to blacks, you would have no opposition to that?

173 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:09:54pm

re: #162 RogueOne

Yes, it is what people are saying. The permits are decided on a case by case basis. If it was a question of either a mosque or a christian church and this argument were being held, you would have a point but it's not. Now, if in a couple of months a christian church gets a permit to build the same type of structure then you could argue the mosque builder had their 1st amendment rights violated.

I would find any claim that the people who are objecting to this mosque would object to a new church being built in the exact same spot extremely dubious.

This is about Islam, not building codes. I'm amazed anyone would attempt to argue otherwise.

174 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:10:00pm

re: #159 Charles

The really sickening part of this is that if you read what Imam Rauf has written about jihad and extremism, he's exactly the kind of Muslim all these so-called "anti-jihad" people claim they are looking for. He even said outright, "I am a supporter of the state of Israel."

Yet, when a real moderate Muslim shows up, the Bigotry Brigade's smear campaign kicks into overdrive, lying, distorting, and justifying bigotry by playing on people's feelings about 9/11.

Well, he must be telling lies, mustn't he?

I mean, just like those goddamned Jesuits, and Catholics in general, and Jews who cheat you at the market.

Funny. I wonder if Bob Spencer has every looked into the Catholic version of "taqiyya".

175 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:10:46pm

So far all I'm seeing is, a) vague applications of ex post facto laws; b) violation of the 1st Amendment; c) hearsay; and d) unproven allegations and conspiracies.

176 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:11:31pm

re: #161 tnguitarist

That is due to a pre-existing law that says a liquor store cannot be built within x amount feet/miles from the school.

That is correct in a lot of places but most permits I've dealt with are done on a situational basis. Some cities have design codes for every conceivable type of structure but the buildings purpose is usually decided case by case unless the city has had a previous issue. Even then, it's still up to the neighborhood to decide if a particular business/religious facility is appropriate.

177 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:12:10pm

Does anyone know why we're getting all these hits from AOL's search engine?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

They're from different IPs, so it's real traffic, not a bot. Someone must have posted a link to a search page somewhere with high traffic.

178 tnguitarist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:12:17pm

re: #170 RogueOne

Hmm, kind of like Wal-mart not being allowed to build in certain areas of the country?

What? That's a different issue. Comparing businesses and places of worship? If a community denied a business being built because the owner was Muslim, then we would be talking about the same thing.

179 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:12:36pm

re: #176 RogueOne

That is correct in a lot of places but most permits I've dealt with are done on a situational basis. Some cities have design codes for every conceivable type of structure but the buildings purpose is usually decided case by case unless the city has had a previous issue. Even then, it's still up to the neighborhood to decide if a particular business/religious facility is appropriate.

So, you live in a place where the concept of zoning hasn't yet reached?

180 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:12:44pm

re: #163 Obdicut

So your contention is people objecting to this community center want no community centers with prayer rooms attached built around the world trade center, and it has nothing to do with it being Muslim?

I think the neighbors have property rights that have to be taken into consideration.

181 blueraven  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:13:03pm

re: #162 RogueOne

Yes, it is what people are saying. The permits are decided on a case by case basis. If it was a question of either a mosque or a christian church and this argument were being held, you would have a point but it's not. Now, if in a couple of months a christian church gets a permit to build the same type of structure then you could argue the mosque builder had their 1st amendment rights violated.

I hope you have some help moving those extremely heavy goal posts.

182 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:13:13pm

re: #180 RogueOne

I think the neighbors have property rights that have to be taken into consideration.

That's a dodge, Rogue. Which is unlike you. Don't weasel.

183 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:13:24pm

re: #177 Charles

Does anyone know why we're getting all these hits from AOL's search engine?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

They're from different IPs, so it's real traffic, not a bot. Someone must have posted a link to a search page somewhere with high traffic.

I noticed that this morning.

184 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:13:33pm

re: #179 Fozzie Bear

So, you live in a place where the concept of zoning hasn't yet reached?

Apparently the constitution hasn't reached there yet, let alone zoning.

185 Bob Levin  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:13:36pm

re: #177 Charles

I'm betting it's because there is something less than positive about the ADL and everyone wants to see that you've completely fallen from grace.

186 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:13:50pm

re: #135 Cato the Elder

Try reading "A Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to Al-Medinah and Meccah" by Captain Sir Richard Francis Burton. His enemies called him the ugliest man alive, but his Catholic wife thought he was the most beautiful human she ever saw.

He made the journey in disguise as a Persian doctor of simples and higher medicine.

He told it like he saw it, without fear or favor.

He also translated, out of the depths of his vast knowledge of Arabic, the Book of a Thousand Nights and a Night, in ten volumes.

His messmates in the British Army called him "The White N*gg*r", because he bothered to learn the languages and customs of anyone he encountered.

Here is a partial list of his books:

Uh, you left out "Human Sacrifice Among the Sephardine or the Eastern Jews"

187 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:14:06pm

re: #169 McSpiff

That's not even close to how the law works. If the reason for the permit not being given is "you're Muslim", discrimination has occurred. Period.

If they wouldn't let him build a store because he's a muslim then you might have a point. What we're talking about is a 13 floor religious structure the neighbors may not want and they have every right to voice their objections for whatever reasons they choose.

188 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:14:29pm

re: #180 RogueOne

I think the neighbors have property rights that have to be taken into consideration.

Pretty sure that's an argument used against desegregation too. You really wanna walk down this road? You're better than this.

189 Kefirah  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:14:30pm

angry letter sent.

if only this were hogwarts, and i could send a howler. that might make me feel better.

190 tnguitarist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:15:06pm

re: #176 RogueOne

That is correct in a lot of places but most permits I've dealt with are done on a situational basis. Some cities have design codes for every conceivable type of structure but the buildings purpose is usually decided case by case unless the city has had a previous issue. Even then, it's still up to the neighborhood to decide if a particular business/religious facility is appropriate.

You're missing the point, probably intentionally. They can decide if the structure is appropriate, etc. Do you really think should have the right to decide if it's appropriate based on religion?

191 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:15:23pm

re: #172 McSpiff

I want to get this straight, because you're either being difficult or you genuinely have no concept of how these things work. If a community refused to grant building permits to blacks, you would have no opposition to that?

You're going to make me bang my head on my desk aren't you. So now I'm a racist because I understand the neighbors have property rights and a church/mosque/synagogue does not automatically have superior rights based on their religious beliefs?

192 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:15:44pm

re: #187 RogueOne

If they wouldn't let him build a store because he's a muslim then you might have a point. What we're talking about is a 13 floor religious structure the neighbors may not want and they have every right to voice their objections for whatever reasons they choose.

This argument brings to mind the phrase "there goes the neighborhood".

193 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:15:46pm

re: #187 RogueOne

No, they really don't have the right to object on the basis that it's a certain religion.

No matter how many times you twist it.

194 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:16:26pm

The population of people who still use AOL skews towards the incredibly ancient.

195 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:17:06pm

The AOL visitors are coming from this page:

[Link: search.aol.com...]

... to Lawhawk's Page on the Arlington Cemetery scandal.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

196 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:17:18pm

re: #191 RogueOne

You're going to make me bang my head on my desk aren't you. So now I'm a racist because I understand the neighbors have property rights and a church/mosque/synagogue does not automatically have superior rights based on their religious beliefs?

Your property rights don't extend beyond your property. It's not about whose rights are superior, it's about whose property it is.

I hope you have never called yourself a conservative, because this argument flies in the face of classical conservatism.

197 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:17:23pm

re: #173 Fozzie Bear

I would find any claim that the people who are objecting to this mosque would object to a new church being built in the exact same spot extremely dubious.

This is about Islam, not building codes. I'm amazed anyone would attempt to argue otherwise.

Yes it is about islam, an islamic mosque. A religious structure. Churches/mosques don't get special treatment just because. The neighbors also have rights that have to be honored. The neighbors are not saying you cannot be a muslim/christian they are saying we don't want that type of facility in our neighborhood. If they can do it to strip clubs explain why they can't do it to churches.

198 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:17:39pm

re: #187 RogueOne

If they wouldn't let him build a store because he's a muslim then you might have a point. What we're talking about is a 13 floor religious structure the neighbors may not want and they have every right to voice their objections for whatever reasons they choose.

If you can show me anyone who objects to this on grounds other than the fact that its a muslim structure you might have something close to a point. Otherwise we're approaching ex post facto ,possibly Bill of Attainder, plus the constitutional problems.

199 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:17:50pm

re: #177 Charles

Does anyone know why we're getting all these hits from AOL's search engine?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

They're from different IPs, so it's real traffic, not a bot. Someone must have posted a link to a search page somewhere with high traffic.

God, please tell me they're not on my trail.

200 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:18:07pm

re: #38 Cato the Elder

Hell, on a clear day, you can see that shadow in Florida.

In fact, the Koran-burners use it to tell the time when they're due to strike the match.

It reaches to Temecula.

201 researchok  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:18:13pm

The ADL's decision is a classic case of realpolitik. To their credit they were open as to their motives. There is a sense of shame that comes across- as it should.

Contrast that with the following that was published by Alexander Cockburn's Counter Punch:

The White House has appointed Mr. John Dimitris Negroponte to be United States ambassador to Iraq. He will preside over the largest embassy in the world, and housed in the Republic Palace (misleadingly named Saddam's Palace by the U.S. occupation). He will be protected by high concrete walls, barbed wires and more than 150,000 occupation force, including several thousands of foreign mercenaries armed to the teeth with the most violent tools. Mr. Negroponte is Greek-American diplomat. He is currently leading the diplomatic war against the people of Iraq as the U.S. envoy at the United Nations (UN) in New York. Negroponte is Jewish. A friend in Spain expressed his deep concern to me recently: " to appoint a Jew as ambassador to the Arab country that has been devastated because of the will of a cabal of Jewish neocons headed by Wolfowitz ­ Bush is just an accessory -, is like trying to put off a fire using buckets of gasoline".

Notwithstanding that Mr Negroponte is not Jewish, this kind of argument has become perfectly acceptable in far too many circles. Fabricating 'truths' is now business as usual.

Invariably, someone will say I am attempting to mitigate the ADL's decision. I am not. I believe that one way or another, the ADL will come to rue their regrettable position they have staked out for themselves. They too have fabricated a 'truth', that somehow the proposed Islamic Center is iinflammatory. How about we let things all play out before we tar and feather these people? If they do indeed use the Center as a front for offensive activities, I have full faith New Yorkers- and America- will respond in a most appropriate fashion.

My point is to highlight how realpolitik has been allowed to color right and wrong.

As a civil rights organization the ADL must remain blind to influences that while at times may be popular and even reflect a majority opinion, are inherently wrong. If they lose their credibility they only enhance the standing of really bad people and organizations who will point to their hypocrisy. Rather than shield themselves from popular criticism they will have weakened their mission. They will have made themselves less relevant and less credible.

202 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:18:23pm

This one boggles me. This thread boggles me. The ADL boggles me in this case. This is just wrong on so many levels.

They are not building a mosque at ground zero.

Anyone who looks at a map of NY knows that.

The land at ground zero is going to be turned into some form of corporate real estate anyway. It is not going to end up as a park or a national memorial. At best, there will be a little statue or plaque about the WTC in one of the buildings the gets built. This fact is vastly more offensive than some mosque being built some blocks away. Everyone knows this as well.

And along comes ADL, usually a good organization and they have to say crap like they just did about it all.

It is not a very wide step from saying you can't build a mosque to saying you can't build a synagogue or a certain church. Of all the organizations on the planet that should be keenly aware of that fact, the ADL should. This is a disgrace.

Either we believe in the values and promise of America and American freedoms for all Americans - or sooner, rather than later, we shall loose those freedoms. This is an argument that is not only true, but one which the ADL has made many times.

This is a travesty.

203 lawhawk  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:18:33pm

re: #177 Charles

Looks like they're referencing the page I posted about the Arlington cemetery scandal. But that page links to an MSNBC story so it beats me why that's garnering the hits.

204 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:18:41pm

re: #191 RogueOne

You're going to make me bang my head on my desk aren't you. So now I'm a racist because I understand the neighbors have property rights and a church/mosque/synagogue does not automatically have superior rights based on their religious beliefs?

If you think that's the argument anyone has made, bang it all you want. Maybe some sense will sneak in too.

205 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:18:46pm

re: #197 RogueOne

Yes it is about islam, an islamic mosque. A religious structure. Churches/mosques don't get special treatment just because. The neighbors also have rights that have to be honored. The neighbors are not saying you cannot be a muslim/christian they are saying we don't want that type of facility in our neighborhood. If they can do it to strip clubs explain why they can't do it to churches.

The rights of the neighbors extend to noise ordinances, whether the grass is kept trimmed, and other such concerns. They DO NOT extend to whether they like the neighbors.

206 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:19:11pm

re: #186 Alouette

Uh, you left out "Human Sacrifice Among the Sephardine or the Eastern Jews"

I never said he wasn't an asshole.

But he was an equal opportunity dick.

207 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:20:12pm

re: #178 tnguitarist

What? That's a different issue. Comparing businesses and places of worship? If a community denied a business being built because the owner was Muslim, then we would be talking about the same thing.

It is the same thing, that's my point. People get to decide if a structure and if its purpose fits in with their neighborhoods. I don't understand why people have this idea in their head that religions deserve more special treatment than others.

208 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:20:15pm

re: #195 Charles

The AOL visitors are coming from this page:

[Link: search.aol.com...]

... to Lawhawk's Page on the Arlington Cemetery scandal.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

What about deleting the link or perhaps renaming the page and URL?

209 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:20:15pm

re: #197 RogueOne

If you don't understand the difference between saying "No mosques" and "No religious structures" you might just be over your head in this one.

210 Kefirah  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:20:20pm

re: #202 LudwigVanQuixote

hope all is well with your new nephew, b'li ayin harah.

211 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:20:56pm

re: #207 RogueOne

It is the same thing, that's my point. People get to decide if a structure and if its purpose fits in with their neighborhoods. I don't understand why people have this idea in their head that religions deserve more special treatment than others.

They don't get to decide who lives in or uses the structure. They get to ensure that building codes are enforced.

212 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:21:04pm

re: #186 Alouette

Uh, you left out "Human Sacrifice Among the Sephardine or the Eastern Jews"

Oh dear G-d. The blood libel eh?

213 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:21:40pm

re: #182 Obdicut

That's a dodge, Rogue. Which is unlike you. Don't weasel.

That isn't a dodge, that's my whole point. Why do people think a religion has special rights that are superior to others? They don't. They have the right to worship and believe as they choose but I have the right to say I don't want their damn building next door to my business.

214 Kefirah  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:22:29pm

re: #213 RogueOne

you're correct. you have the right to say that. but your right to impose that wish stops at your property line.

215 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:22:30pm

re: #213 RogueOne

That isn't a dodge, that's my whole point. Why do people think a religion has special rights that are superior to others? They don't. They have the right to worship and believe as they choose but I have the right to say I don't want their damn building next door to my business.

Stop using the term "religion" when people are objecting to a specific religion, At the very least be honest enough to say Islam.

216 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:22:44pm

re: #213 RogueOne

That isn't a dodge, that's my whole point. Why do people think a religion has special rights that are superior to others? They don't. They have the right to worship and believe as they choose but I have the right to say I don't want their damn building next door to my business.

Why do you think that consideration on the basis of religion, at all, is ok?

This is straight-up bigotry. There's no other way to characterize it. Shame on you, Rogue.

217 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:22:44pm

Curious Lurker, if you're still here:

My favorite way of stepping back and recharging is watching a random Bruce Willis movie. His brand of sardonic, intelligent, "I buy no bullshit" humor always makes me feel better about the silly species to which we all belong.

218 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:23:27pm

re: #48 azizhp

alhamdolillah, and thank you. I try, but I've failed and fallen short in the past.

Haven't we all?

Honestly, not sure what to make of this. It seems like a poor call on Foxman's part, and I will be writing to the ADL about it.

219 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:23:27pm

re: #197 RogueOne

Yes it is about islam, an islamic mosque. A religious structure. Churches/mosques don't get special treatment just because. The neighbors also have rights that have to be honored. The neighbors are not saying you cannot be a muslim/christian they are saying we don't want that type of facility in our neighborhood. If they can do it to strip clubs explain why they can't do it to churches.

Except the neighbors overwhelmingly aren't saying that, the community board isn't saying that, only you are saying that, along with an army of bigots who don't live there and have a vested interest in misrepresenting the facts on the ground.

220 Bob Levin  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:23:54pm

re: #203 lawhawk

How do you guys see this data? I know how Charles can see it--but how can others? Just curious.

221 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:24:14pm

re: #210 Kefirah

hope all is well with your new nephew, b'li ayin harah.

:) All is fabulous and thank you so much!

222 tnguitarist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:24:32pm

re: #217 Cato the Elder

You are so random. In a good way.

223 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:24:41pm

re: #220 Bob Levin

How do you guys see this data? I know how Charles can see it--but how can others? Just curious.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...] its in the sidebar on the upper left.

224 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:24:58pm

re: #205 Fozzie Bear

The rights of the neighbors extend to noise ordinances, whether the grass is kept trimmed, and other such concerns. They DO NOT extend to whether they like the neighbors.

Yes it does, it happens ALL the time. Neighborhoods decide they don't want a strip club opening, a lingerie store, a liquor store because they don't want "those kinds of people" in that neighborhood.

I'll ask this again. Why does a church get a special right to build a structure when the rest of us do not?

225 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:25:04pm

re: #54 Fozzie Bear

How long after 9/11 do we have to wait before we stop consulting the families of victims of a tragedy what we should do on policy grounds.

The 9/11 families had a fundamental right to not be violently deprived of their families. That right was violated, and it can't be un-violated. I grieve for their loss, but honestly, I don't give a flying fuck what they think about the location of mosques, the war, or any other issue.

They represent an infinitesimally small portion of the population. Why do they occupy such a pedestal?

They don't. They are merely invoked when it suits people to do so.

Ann Coulter, you may recall, savaged a group of 9/11 widows at one point, and no one in her circles seemed to care.

226 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:25:31pm

re: #213 RogueOne

That isn't a dodge, that's my whole point. Why do people think a religion has special rights that are superior to others? They don't. They have the right to worship and believe as they choose but I have the right to say I don't want their damn building next door to my business.

No, you don't-- not on the basis of it being a particular religion.

Why do you think you do?

227 General Nimrod Bodfish  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:25:45pm

My view is this: if this proposed community center has all of the permits and the approval required, then it should go up if the group involved wants it to. The ONLY reason this shouldn't go up is if it doesn't conform to the laws and building codes of the city. So far, I haven't seen any such thing. People don't want this community center to go up for, to me, one of two reasons:
1) it's too close to the former WTC site, or
2) there are Muslims involved.

There has been no legitimate reason brought up for opposing this proposed community center. None. Nothing about someone forging a permit, nothing about someone filling in the wrong blank. Nothing. Just either "feelings will be hurt" or "MOOOSELEMS!!!!!!!111!!etc" bigotry veiled as "concern for the victims' families" (liker Captain Geller of the Bigotry Brigade).

If the everything is in place, then it should be built. Period.

228 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:26:03pm

re: #214 Kefirah

you're correct. you have the right to say that. but your right to impose that wish stops at your property line.

Actually, it doesn't. It's part of the whole democracy thing. If the rest of the neighborhood agrees with me the building doesn't get put up.

229 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:26:13pm

re: #221 LudwigVanQuixote

:) All is fabulous and thank you so much!

I tried to find a public-domain version of my favorite joyful Yiddish song to post in honor of your nephew's bris.

Came up blank.

Please email me (nick is blue) and I shall send you the MP3.

230 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:26:17pm

re: #224 RogueOne

Yes it does, it happens ALL the time. Neighborhoods decide they don't want a strip club opening, a lingerie store, a liquor store because they don't want "those kinds of people" in that neighborhood.

I'll ask this again. Why does a church get a special right to build a structure when the rest of us do not?

In every case you described, the law is being broken.

So, I'll reverse the question. Why should constitutional protections not apply to Muslims?

231 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:26:27pm

re: #208 Gus 802

Well, it's not necessarily something evil. And more traffic is always good, even if it is. I was just curious whether anyone knew where it was coming from.

Could be a link to an AOL search on an AOL portal site, for stories related to the Arlington scandal.

232 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:26:47pm

re: #228 RogueOne

Actually, it doesn't. It's part of the whole democracy thing. If the rest of the neighborhood agrees with me the building doesn't get put up.

Um, do you also think if the rest of the community decided to not allow black people to buy any houses, they're not allowed to buy houses?

233 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:27:06pm

re: #231 Charles

Well, it's not necessarily something evil. And more traffic is always good, even if it is. I was just curious whether anyone knew where it was coming from.

Could be a link to an AOL search on an AOL portal site, for stories related to the Arlington scandal.

Yeah. Plus it's from AOL so maybe "something's stuck" in one of their servers.

234 Kefirah  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:27:29pm

re: #228 RogueOne

and if the rest of the neighborhood would prefer that the african.american family doesn't move into the joneses' old house, what then?

235 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:27:29pm

re: #231 Charles

Well, it's not necessarily something evil. And more traffic is always good, even if it is. I was just curious whether anyone knew where it was coming from.

Could be a link to an AOL search on an AOL portal site, for stories related to the Arlington scandal.

What "Arlington scandal"? The one where Obama failed to show?

236 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:27:32pm

re: #228 RogueOne

Actually, it doesn't. It's part of the whole democracy thing. If the rest of the neighborhood agrees with me the building doesn't get put up.

No, that's just not true. Your grasp of the law isn't sufficient to this argument, to put it mildly.

237 Kefirah  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:27:43pm

re: #232 Obdicut

great minds, sir.

238 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:27:45pm

re: #213 RogueOne

That isn't a dodge, that's my whole point. Why do people think a religion has special rights that are superior to others? They don't. They have the right to worship and believe as they choose but I have the right to say I don't want their damn building next door to my business.

Then this must infuriate you.

239 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:27:55pm

re: #216 Fozzie Bear

Why do you think that consideration on the basis of religion, at all, is ok?

This is straight-up bigotry. There's no other way to characterize it. Shame on you, Rogue.

Don't start that crap. Just because I don't believe a religious organization doesn't deserve any more special treatment than anyone else that doesn't make me a bigot anymore than it makes you bigoted against atheists to believe the opposite.

240 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:28:22pm

re: #224 RogueOne

Yes it does, it happens ALL the time. Neighborhoods decide they don't want a strip club opening, a lingerie store, a liquor store because they don't want "those kinds of people" in that neighborhood.

I'll ask this again. Why does a church get a special right to build a structure when the rest of us do not?

ITS NOT A CHURCH. Its a Mosque. This is like objecting to a strip club because its run by Jews, or because its a liquor store owned by women.

Some classifications of people are considered "Protected". Religion is one. You can't discriminate against people because of their religion. Not allowed. Can't do it. Not even if you all take a vote first. See: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

241 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:28:38pm

re: #235 Cato the Elder

What "Arlington scandal"? The one where Obama failed to show?

The staff at Arlington Cemetery mislabeled thousands of graves and urns with the wrong names. It's really bad.

242 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:28:43pm

re: #238 goddamnedfrank

Then this must infuriate you.

I don't live there, none of my business. I just don't like seeing people talk about constitutional rights that don't exist. That, and only that, is the reason I jumped in.

243 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:28:53pm

re: #79 joest73

Plenty of people around the country are uncomfortable with the project. Nobody is saying that the center can't be opened in another location in NYC... maybe they should respect the site and look to locate the center elsewhere.

Yeah, maybe they should.

They seem to want to go ahead, though.

I see no reason for the ADL, or Pam Geller, to have an official opinion about any of this.

244 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:28:54pm

re: #239 RogueOne

What special treatment are you under the impression they're receiving, Rogue?

245 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:29:07pm

re: #239 RogueOne

Don't start that crap. Just because I don't believe a religious organization doesn't deserve any more special treatment than anyone else that doesn't make me a bigot anymore than it makes you bigoted against atheists to believe the opposite.

The moment I start arguing that property owners get to dictate who is allowed to buy the house next door on the basis of religion, then I would be a bigot.

Just like you.

246 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:29:12pm

Now that I've had my daily allotment of being called a bigot, I'll leave you all to your weekends.

247 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:29:50pm

re: #235 Cato the Elder

What "Arlington scandal"? The one where Obama failed to show?

No this actually was a reasonable scandal.

Apparently people were buried in the wrong graves (which I could see as just a bad filing accident) and in some cases multiple people buried in the same grave (which I can't....)

248 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:29:56pm

re: #239 RogueOne

Don't start that crap. Just because I don't believe a religious organization doesn't deserve any more special treatment than anyone else that doesn't make me a bigot anymore than it makes you bigoted against atheists to believe the opposite.

You aren't allowed to discriminate on religious ground. That particular special treatment is in fact written into law. Civil Rights Act of 1964.

249 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:30:01pm

re: #246 RogueOne

Now that I've had my daily allotment of being called a bigot, I'll leave you all to your weekends.

When you repeatedly show the world that the shoe fits...

250 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:30:16pm

re: #246 RogueOne

Now that I've had my daily allotment of being called a bigot, I'll leave you all to your weekends.

Now that you've failed to make an argument, dodged every pertinent question, and pulled the victimhood card, you can stop boring the shit out of us with a half-assed line of misreason.

251 tnguitarist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:30:18pm

re: #224 RogueOne

Yes it does, it happens ALL the time. Neighborhoods decide they don't want a strip club opening, a lingerie store, a liquor store because they don't want "those kinds of people" in that neighborhood.

I'll ask this again. Why does a church get a special right to build a structure when the rest of us do not?

When they forbid things like a liquor store or strip club, it's because they are worried about the 'kind of people' those establishments might bring in to the area (however rational or irrational that may be). Is that what they are worried about with a mosque? I think it may be.

252 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:31:02pm

re: #246 RogueOne

Now that I've had my daily allotment of being called a bigot, I'll leave you all to your weekends.

When confronted with facts, citations and laws the best counter-argument is indeed "Screw you guys, im leaving". Well played.

253 blueraven  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:31:03pm

re: #225 SanFranciscoZionist

They don't. They are merely invoked when it suits people to do so.

Ann Coulter, you may recall, savaged a group of 9/11 widows at one point, and no one in her circles seemed to care.

As did Glenn Beck. Well...9/11 victim families

Youtube Video
254 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:31:16pm

re: #229 Cato the Elder

Mailed you.

255 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:31:19pm

I think some people are trying to second guess the actual planning process for Park51 approval and making up procedures on the fly.

256 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:31:57pm

re: #241 Charles

The staff at Arlington Cemetery mislabeled thousands of graves and urns with the wrong names. It's really bad.

Yeah, I did hear about that, on the periphery of consciousness. Can it be fixed, or must we blame the Muslims?

257 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:32:09pm

re: #255 Gus 802

I think some people are trying to second guess the actual planning process for Park51 approval and making up procedures on the fly.

Some people can't believe they're actually forced to share their communities with Muslims!.

258 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:33:26pm

re: #91 joest73

They should be remembered like every other victim. I am a catholic and I don't want special treatment for the catholics that died that day.

If there was a church being built in the area to honor, say, Fr. Mychal Judge, we would not be having this discussion.

259 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:33:37pm

re: #256 Cato the Elder

Yeah, I did hear about that, on the periphery of consciousness. Can it be fixed, or must we blame the Muslims?

A good multi tasker could do BOTH!!

///

260 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:34:36pm

re: #107 joest73

If needed the city/govt. should help them find another location.

WHoa. Why is it NYC's problem to move these folks away from an appropriately zoned site and help them find another one. Are they gonna do the same for Fr. Mychal's church?

261 b_sharp  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:35:30pm

re: #197 RogueOne

Yes it is about islam, an islamic mosque. A religious structure. Churches/mosques don't get special treatment just because. The neighbors also have rights that have to be honored. The neighbors are not saying you cannot be a muslim/christian they are saying we don't want that type of facility in our neighborhood. If they can do it to strip clubs explain why they can't do it to churches.

The right to practice your chosen religion is entrenched is it not? The right to drool, not so much.

262 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:36:08pm

re: #257 McSpiff

Some people can't believe they're actually forced to share their communities with Muslims!.

Hell

Next week I have to share my house with one!!

One of my sons best friends parents are going out of town for 5 days and my sons friend is staying with us

I remember when he stayed with us several years ago and someone here (LGF)((can't/ don;t want to remember who) told me that I was crazy!

Well,, I am ,, but not for THAT reason!!
/(last sentence only)

263 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:36:45pm

re: #136 RogueOne

Hate to keep repeating myself but there is no constitutional right to build a church/mosque/synagogue wherever whatever religious organization chooses.

However, there is a constitutional right to build such a thing anywhere that's been zoned for such a building, without reference to what faith will be practiced in it.

264 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:36:45pm

re: #242 RogueOne

I don't live there, none of my business. I just don't like seeing people talk about constitutional rights that don't exist. That, and only that, is the reason I jumped in.

Q: Who put this cross on a pedestal at the WTC site?

A: Rudy Giuliani personally gave expedited approval.

How mad did that make you?

265 b_sharp  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:38:26pm

re: #202 LudwigVanQuixote

This one boggles me. This thread boggles me. The ADL boggles me in this case. This is just wrong on so many levels.

They are not building a mosque at ground zero.

Anyone who looks at a map of NY knows that.

The land at ground zero is going to be turned into some form of corporate real estate anyway. It is not going to end up as a park or a national memorial. At best, there will be a little statue or plaque about the WTC in one of the buildings the gets built. This fact is vastly more offensive than some mosque being built some blocks away. Everyone knows this as well.

And along comes ADL, usually a good organization and they have to say crap like they just did about it all.

It is not a very wide step from saying you can't build a mosque to saying you can't build a synagogue or a certain church. Of all the organizations on the planet that should be keenly aware of that fact, the ADL should. This is a disgrace.

Either we believe in the values and promise of America and American freedoms for all Americans - or sooner, rather than later, we shall loose those freedoms. This is an argument that is not only true, but one which the ADL has made many times.

This is a travesty.

Well since most of the rest of us seem just as boggled as you, you've chosen a good group to be boggled with IMHO.

266 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:39:40pm

re: #258 SanFranciscoZionist

If there was a church being built in the area to honor, say, Fr. Mychal Judge, we would not be having this discussion.

If there was a Mosque being built to honor Mohamed Mohamed el-Amir Awad el-Sayed Atta we wouldn't be supporting someone's right to build it either.

This is not a "Woo-hoo! We did it!" Monument. It's a Mosque.

In the beginning, my knee jerked hard on this one too.

267 pharmmajor  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:39:57pm

Notice that while the ADL disagrees, they still say that the center's proponents have the right to build there. That's a key difference from the people saying they'll blow up the center if it's built.

268 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:40:07pm

re: #254 LudwigVanQuixote

Mailed you.

Mailed you back. Tell me if you can listen to the song.

I don't have "a blassa shimma" how good your Yiddish is, so let me know if you need a pony.

269 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:40:24pm

So. I wonder how the anti-1st Amendment people that don't want Park51 approved feel about hate monger and lunatic Pastor Bill Keller wanting to build a Christian Center center near Ground Zero.

Florida televangelist plans "9/11 Christian Center" at Ground Zero

You might remember Bill Keller, the pastor who told his "virtual" congregation that a vote for Mitt Romney was a vote for Satan, after which he was apparently investigated by the IRS.

Based in Largo, Florida, Keller, creator of Liveprayer.com, the "world's largest interactive Christian website," took his late-night televangelism shtick to the nation in 2006. The ex-con, who spent years in jail for insider trading, was a perfect fit for the televangelism line-up. His church is all over the Internet and the airwaves.

Now, he's set up a temporary office in the ballroom of the Embassy Suites New York, from where he hopes to take millions of dollars in donations in an effort to build a counter protest to the proposed Islamic Center to be built near Ground Zero.

Clearly, the idea of mosque in New York infuriates Keller. "The gall, the arrogance, the audacity of this false religion of violence, hate, and death," he writes, "to build their temple to satan just blocks from that hallowed ground."

Continues.

270 tnguitarist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:40:56pm

re: #265 b_sharp

Well since most of the rest of us seem just as boggled as you, you've chosen a good group to be boggled with IMHO.

It's mind-bottling.

271 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:41:00pm

re: #197 RogueOne

Yes it is about islam, an islamic mosque. A religious structure. Churches/mosques don't get special treatment just because. The neighbors also have rights that have to be honored. The neighbors are not saying you cannot be a muslim/christian they are saying we don't want that type of facility in our neighborhood. If they can do it to strip clubs explain why they can't do it to churches.

The zoning committee has approved the building, no?

272 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:41:03pm

PIMF Had an extra "center" in that last post.

273 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:42:07pm

re: #207 RogueOne

It is the same thing, that's my point. People get to decide if a structure and if its purpose fits in with their neighborhoods. I don't understand why people have this idea in their head that religions deserve more special treatment than others.

No one has that in their heads. What they do have in their heads is that no religion deserves better or worse treatment than another.

274 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:42:16pm

re: #272 Gus 802

PIMF Had an extra "center" in that last post.

N/P, we need more "center" in this country

Too many far right and left pulling us apart!

275 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:42:49pm

re: #274 sattv4u2

N/P, we need more "center" in this country

Too many far right and left pulling us apart!

Hell, I'm starting to root for a black hole.

276 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:43:14pm

re: #224 RogueOne

Yes it does, it happens ALL the time. Neighborhoods decide they don't want a strip club opening, a lingerie store, a liquor store because they don't want "those kinds of people" in that neighborhood.

I'll ask this again. Why does a church get a special right to build a structure when the rest of us do not?

They don't. No one is saying they do.

277 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:43:20pm

re: #269 Gus 802

So. I wonder how the anti-1st Amendment people that don't want Park51 approved feel about hate monger and lunatic Pastor Bill Keller wanting to build a Christian Center near Ground Zero.

Florida televangelist plans "9/11 Christian Center" at Ground Zero

Here's his website.

So is that OK? Should this guy be allowed to build or locate near Ground Zero?

278 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:43:58pm

re: #274 sattv4u2

N/P, we need more "center" in this country

Too many far right and left pulling us apart!

Thanks thanks.

/

279 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:44:07pm

re: #267 pharmmajor

Notice that while the ADL disagrees, they still say that the center's proponents have the right to build there. That's a key difference from the people saying they'll blow up the center if it's built.

And the ADL should know better than anyone what they're fueling, they're the adults in the room and therefore have no excuse.

280 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:44:28pm

re: #228 RogueOne

Actually, it doesn't. It's part of the whole democracy thing. If the rest of the neighborhood agrees with me the building doesn't get put up.

The rest of the neighborhood, otherwise known as the zoning committee, has spoken.

281 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:44:53pm

re: #275 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hell, I'm starting to root for a black hole.

Sounds like whats left of the buffet table after you've hit it!!

282 Bob Levin  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:45:08pm

re: #267 pharmmajor

It still has nothing to do with their mission. And it's probably hypocritical too--if they are upset about the President voicing opinions about the rulings of the Jerusalem zoning commission.

283 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:45:14pm

re: #235 Cato the Elder

What "Arlington scandal"? The one where Obama failed to show?

No, they've managed to screw up recordkeeping, lose some of the graves, possible mislabel others...it's a bit of a mess.

284 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:45:47pm

It just occurred to me that if that many people were really being hurt by the plans for the community center they'd buy the property. Everything has its price and it would be a guaranteed way to block the project but that's not really what this is about. This is about hassling Muslims.

285 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:45:51pm

re: #262 sattv4u2

Hell

Next week I have to share my house with one!!

One of my sons best friends parents are going out of town for 5 days and my sons friend is staying with us

I remember when he stayed with us several years ago and someone here (LGF)((can't/ don;t want to remember who) told me that I was crazy!

Well,, I am ,, but not for THAT reason!!
/(last sentence only)

That's awesome. This entire thread has really, really impressed me.

286 albusteve  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:46:05pm

re: #263 SanFranciscoZionist

However, there is a constitutional right to build such a thing anywhere that's been zoned for such a building, without reference to what faith will be practiced in it.

mini mega churches just about ruined my hometown village...demolished stands of old trees, ripped up the corn fields and built these ugly monstrosities....there are four of them in a one mile square village....the traffic is unbearable...activities every night, bright lights all night long....it's a bad joke, not to mention the tax burden on the rest of the residence

287 tnguitarist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:47:45pm

re: #286 albusteve

mini mega churches just about ruined my hometown village...demolished stands of old trees, ripped up the corn fields and built these ugly monstrosities...there are four of them in a one mile square village...the traffic is unbearable...activities every night, bright lights all night long...it's a bad joke, not to mention the tax burden on the rest of the residence

What is it with so many mega-churches locating to that general area of the country?

288 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:48:43pm

re: #281 sattv4u2

The carved roast beef is safe.

289 Four More Tears  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:48:47pm

re: #286 albusteve

not to mention the tax burden on the rest of the residence

Hey, if you're saying churches should be paying their fair share then I'm right behind you, buddy.

290 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:48:49pm

re: #285 McSpiff

That's awesome. This entire thread has really, really impressed me.

Whats "awesome"?

When we met the family we never even thought of asking them what their religion is. Unless we meet someone in our church where it's fairly obvious, we never ask. In time, it comes up, of course, but two weeks ago when we were home (we're away on vacation right now) my sons room looked like a UN meeting! (he had the usual gang of friends over for video games/ BBQ)

291 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:49:15pm

Speaking of BBQ

BRB,, gotta go light the grill

292 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:49:17pm

re: #286 albusteve

I have no problem with someone saying "13 stories? That's a little on the big side eh?". I think involvement from the community at large can only be a good thing for this project.

293 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:50:07pm

It's a bit odd. With this statement, the ADL has actual found themselves on the side of the very same people (wingnuts) that despise them.

294 freetoken  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:50:07pm

They have shown up once again down on the last AGW thread. I would be amazed but I've now been trained to expect it.

295 albusteve  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:50:18pm

re: #287 tnguitarist

What is it with so many mega-churches locating to that general area of the country?

my village is a upper middle class little bedroom community, located right between Battle Creek and Kalamazoo MI....Richland...many people think it's ruined now

296 justaminute  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:50:32pm

When I go to Iran I always joke that I am the unofficial American voice of critically thinking Americans. I am not Muslim but I love a son of Islam but do not subscribe to the Muslim faith. In Iran I have seen people practice Islam as a religion of peace and something to be admired as Curious Lurker practices and many others do. I see them. I also have seen who I do not get the feeling that they are practicing what they say Islam is.

I grew up in the Christian faith. But I left my fundamentalist Baptist faith when I was 17 because I didn't see it there. I came to think that God or what some calls him is bigger than religion but it is the one thing that I can't see, I feel it.

I grew up with the pictures and stories of the Holocaust and heard my dad's and grandfather's stories of WWII. I sat through church and heard the stories of Jew's in the Bible. I support Israel's right to exist. I have always stated that in Iran. Frankly, only one Iranian has ever questioned me on this. And frankly I may question some of the policies of some in Israel but I still see them.

When LGF and it's Jewish members support the mosque in NY I am glad that no only do I see them, I joined them. Thank you.

297 albusteve  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:51:10pm

re: #289 JasonA

Hey, if you're saying churches should be paying their fair share then I'm right behind you, buddy.

I am, that makes two of us

298 robdouth  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:51:26pm

re: #164 Gus 802

Well, that's part of my point which is that they would have to prove that their conspiracy is real and based on facts instead of right-wing blogger's rhetoric.

No actually the 1st amendment allows for their free association and to act like idiots in opposing this mosque as well. sometimes freedoms allow people to do stupid things.

299 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:51:28pm

re: #290 sattv4u2

Just that he has that exposure earlier in life. I never had any Muslim friends till university. Not due to bigotry or avoidance, just circumstance.

300 jordash1212  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:51:30pm

The ADL has its purpose, but it is not their place to provide a position on the building of a mosque near Ground Zero. They are mistaken if they believe that 9/11 was merely a religious attack by fanatical Muslims. It was an attack against a society and a culture; they should not try to magnify this mosque's construction into a religious conflict.

301 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:51:49pm

re: #275 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hell, I'm starting to root for a black hole.

They tried that in Calcutta. In the end, it didn't work

302 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:52:05pm

If I step back and look here I am puzzled by the Islamic community's lack of prudence in its site selection, from a PR standpoint if nothing else.

303 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:52:48pm

re: #277 Gus 802

Here's his website.

So is that OK? Should this guy be allowed to build or locate near Ground Zero?

He seems like a right asshole, but I can't see a reason he can't build this thing if he can afford to.

I especially like the Gold for Souls link, which has a decided whiff of "The Countess Cathleen" about it.

304 albusteve  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:53:01pm

re: #292 McSpiff

I have no problem with someone saying "13 stories? That's a little on the big side eh?". I think involvement from the community at large can only be a good thing for this project.

I have no opinion about the peripheral debate...it should be built, it has to...it's the law

305 tnguitarist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:53:05pm

re: #295 albusteve

I was thinking you were out west for some reason.

306 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:53:11pm

re: #302 Ojoe

If I step back and look here I am puzzled by the Islamic community's lack of prudence in its site selection, from a PR standpoint if nothing else.

I'm glad they choose this site. Lets deal with these issues now and show the bigots they don't have nearly as much support as they think they do.

307 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:53:43pm

re: #303 SanFranciscoZionist

He seems like a right asshole, but I can't see a reason he can't build this thing if he can afford to.

I especially like the Gold for Souls link, which has a decided whiff of "The Countess Cathleen" about it.

Yeah. In order to be legally consistent I couldn't oppose them either.

308 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:53:47pm

re: #286 albusteve

mini mega churches just about ruined my hometown village...demolished stands of old trees, ripped up the corn fields and built these ugly monstrosities...there are four of them in a one mile square village...the traffic is unbearable...activities every night, bright lights all night long...it's a bad joke, not to mention the tax burden on the rest of the residence

Sounds like you needed a better zoning committee.

309 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:53:55pm

re: #302 Ojoe

If I step back and look here I am puzzled by the Islamic community's lack of prudence in its site selection, from a PR standpoint if nothing else.

Living in a neighborhood for 20 years has a way of attaching you to it.

310 albusteve  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:54:49pm

re: #302 Ojoe

If I step back and look here I am puzzled by the Islamic community's lack of prudence in its site selection, from a PR standpoint if nothing else.

agreed, poor judgement, but thems the breaks...we have to live with it

311 b_sharp  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:54:57pm

re: #239 RogueOne

Don't start that crap. Just because I don't believe a religious organization doesn't deserve any more special treatment than anyone else that doesn't make me a bigot anymore than it makes you bigoted against atheists to believe the opposite.

Rogue, your argument has changed, or your explanation of it has. The original argument was specific to a religion - Islam - not to all religions.

I would be the first to agree with you that a religion, in a generic sense, does not have a right to build or occupy a building when others are prevented from doing so, but that isn't the point.

This isn't a case of others being restricted but religions not, it's about Islam being restricted but other religions not.

The community surrounding the proposed use of the building may have the right to determine that a religion not build or use an existing site, but do they have the right to specify that one and only one type of universally recognized religion cannot occupy the site? If they restrict this religion, then they have to use the same standards and qualification criteria for any other religious group that wants to occupy any site within their purview.

312 freetoken  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:55:33pm

re: #300 jordash1212

It was an attack against a society and a culture;

That's a point that is often lost. AQ did not target the Statue of Liberty, the Liberty Bell, the various historical monuments, or even a national cemetery. Instead they targeted what they saw as the financial center of the world, and then in the Pentagon what they saw as the nexus of world-influencing military.

AQ is (violently) against modernity and internationalism.

313 robdouth  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:55:43pm

re: #307 Gus 802

Yeah. In order to be legally consistent I couldn't oppose them either.

No not true. You aren't the government, so you can oppose or support whatever you want to. Just like these idiots can oppose or support whatever they want to. It's just they would oppose this mosque/community center for the wrong reasons, wheras you can oppose a church being built for the right reasons. It's just a matter of what the government does.

314 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:56:11pm

re: #310 albusteve

I myself am going to watch this one, puzzled, from the sidelines, with an air of scientific detachment.

It reminds me of the cats from Kilkenny.

315 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:56:11pm

re: #304 albusteve

I have no opinion about the peripheral debate...it should be built, it has to...it's the law

No disagreement here. I'd just like to see Park51 be something of a uniter. Nothing would make me happier than to read about how other organizations and faiths are renting and utilizing the space down the road.

316 Ericus58  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:56:28pm

re: #295 albusteve

my village is a upper middle class little bedroom community, located right between Battle Creek and Kalamazoo MI...Richland...many people think it's ruined now

Heh, I grew up in the Battle Creek area...
There was a time that my family attended The Family Alter Chapel.
I wonder if that's still going? They even had a radio station at one point... Pastor Don Burkett (sp)?
LOL, the stories and behind the scene stuff that went on....

317 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:56:28pm

re: #106 Charles

You either support the Constitution's guarantees of religious freedom, or you think it's a good idea to carve out special exceptions for certain groups, and give them diminished status under the law.

You can't have it both ways.

This. Freedom is for everybody, or soon it's for nobody save a very few.

318 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:56:57pm

Some example of how the wingnuts hate the ADL can be found here:


ADL site:atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com

ADL site:freerepublic.com

319 albusteve  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:57:00pm

re: #305 tnguitarist

I was thinking you were out west for some reason.

I'm in Albuquerque and there are several MASSIVE churches out here....HUGE, but ABQ is 190sq miles for 500k people, so we are nicely spread out

320 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:57:24pm

re: #301 Cato the Elder

They need to fire up the damn collider again...

321 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:58:27pm

re: #313 robdouth

No not true. You aren't the government, so you can oppose or support whatever you want to. Just like these idiots can oppose or support whatever they want to. It's just they would oppose this mosque/community center for the wrong reasons, wheras you can oppose a church being built for the right reasons. It's just a matter of what the government does.

Don't take this the wrong way but you're giving me a headache.

322 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:58:33pm

re: #319 albusteve

First time I ever ate at a PF Chang's was in Albuquerque.

Fell in love.

323 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:58:37pm

re: #316 Ericus58

Heh, I grew up in the Battle Creek area...
There was a time that my family attended The Family Alter Chapel.
I wonder if that's still going? They even had a radio station at one point... Pastor Don Burkett (sp)?
LOL, the stories and behind the scene stuff that went on...

My BIL's parents live in Battle Creek. I've never met them, but I know they were very kind to my SIL during her husband's first deployments to Afghanistan, and when she and the BIL got engaged, they sent Christmas presents to her daughter from "your new Grandma and Grandpa".

324 robdouth  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:58:41pm

re: #317 Romantic Heretic

This. Freedom is for everybody, or soon it's for nobody save a very few.

We have to differentiate though, and recognize that as long as it isn't government opposing the building of the community center, than even those protesting the spot are not abusing the Constitution. They are just being bigots. Since they are private citizens, they can't infringe on their 1st amendment rights. If they are trying to petition the government, they are still not impinging on those rights. Only if the government gives in and denies the building would there be a first amendment arguement.

325 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:58:43pm

re: #268 Cato the Elder

Mailed you back. Tell me if you can listen to the song.

I don't have "a blassa shimma" how good your Yiddish is, so let me know if you need a pony.

My Yiddish is mostly odd phrases and cuss words I picked up from my Gran... :)


However, I think I will like the challenge of figuring out the translation.


Thanks much for the mail.

326 tnguitarist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 1:59:29pm

re: #319 albusteve

I'm in Albuquerque and there are several MASSIVE churches out here...HUGE, but ABQ is 190sq miles for 500k people, so we are nicely spread out

Is it Colorado Springs that has the concentration of those huge churches?

327 McSpiff  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:00:20pm

re: #326 tnguitarist

Is it Colorado Springs that has the concentration of those huge churches?

I think so. Wherever the USAF Academy is.

328 albusteve  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:00:20pm

re: #316 Ericus58

Heh, I grew up in the Battle Creek area...
There was a time that my family attended The Family Alter Chapel.
I wonder if that's still going? They even had a radio station at one point... Pastor Don Burkett (sp)?
LOL, the stories and behind the scene stuff that went on...

Cato was born in A2 and has kin in Marshall...small world

329 robdouth  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:00:29pm

re: #321 Gus 802

Don't take this the wrong way but you're giving me a headache.

Ok, but I'm just trying to say I would support you're right to oppose the building of what you see as a hate-filled church at ground zero (if you feel that way) just like I support the right of these idiots to oppose the mosque. I would just join you in your opposition, and not join the idiots in theirs, but you have a right and you are in no way inconsistent if you wanted to oppose the bigoted church.

330 b_sharp  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:00:39pm

re: #270 tnguitarist

It's mind-bottling.

I've found many an interesting thing at the bottom of a bottle but never someone's mind.

I wouldn't mind doing so.

331 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:00:43pm

re: #326 tnguitarist

Is it Colorado Springs that has the concentration of those huge churches?

Too much drywall

Not enough stone

332 Ericus58  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:00:43pm

re: #323 SanFranciscoZionist

My BIL's parents live in Battle Creek. I've never met them, but I know they were very kind to my SIL during her husband's first deployments to Afghanistan, and when she and the BIL got engaged, they sent Christmas presents to her daughter from "your new Grandma and Grandpa".

Aw, that is very nice to hear. Good for them.
I miss the clear distinction of the seasons... and the fall was always my favorite.

333 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:02:16pm

re: #330 b_sharp

Mind bottling (2).

BBL

334 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:02:25pm

re: #329 robdouth

Ok, but I'm just trying to say I would support you're right to oppose the building of what you see as a hate-filled church at ground zero (if you feel that way) just like I support the right of these idiots to oppose the mosque. I would just join you in your opposition, and not join the idiots in theirs, but you have a right and you are in no way inconsistent if you wanted to oppose the bigoted church.

Ah, OK.

335 albusteve  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:02:26pm

re: #322 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

First time I ever ate at a PF Chang's was in Albuquerque.

Fell in love.

with ABQ or Changs
Albuquerque is a sleeper...a hell of a town when you realize what it is...people love it when they get around and see it

336 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:02:55pm

re: #331 Ojoe

Too much drywall

Not enough stone

EIFS

/

337 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:02:57pm

re: #302 Ojoe

If I step back and look here I am puzzled by the Islamic community's lack of prudence in its site selection, from a PR standpoint if nothing else.

Muslims have actually been holding prayer services there for quite a while, in the abandoned Burlington coat factory, and nobody ever complained.

338 albusteve  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:03:12pm

re: #326 tnguitarist

Is it Colorado Springs that has the concentration of those huge churches?

don't know

339 Ericus58  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:03:28pm

re: #328 albusteve

Cato was born in A2 and has kin in Marshall...small world

Marshall - small town, nice area from what I remember. They have also suffered through a tornado or two. When I attended Harper Creek H.S. for a year, our wrestling team had meets with them.

340 b_sharp  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:03:49pm

re: #277 Gus 802

Here's his website.

So is that OK? Should this guy be allowed to build or locate near Ground Zero?

Does he honestly represent Christianity? Then yes.

Is he a maniacal (word of the day), bigoted, religious nut case that nobody in their right mind would have any contact? Then no.

341 albusteve  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:04:26pm

re: #332 Ericus58

Aw, that is very nice to hear. Good for them.
I miss the clear distinction of the seasons... and the fall was always my favorite.

fall in MI is a thing to behold...no question

342 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:04:45pm

And here an example of how things are done right at a wedding or any other great celebration:

Motl, Reb Shimn,
di oreme layt zenen ongekimen.
Shtel fir zey den feysten tish,
tayreh weyn un tayreh fish,
Kum, mayn tochter, gib mir a kish.
Di mezinkeh oysgegeben!

Mottel, dear Shimon,
the poor folks have arrived.
Set up for them the finest table.
Good wine, good fish, as you are able!
Come, my daughter, give me a kiss.
I give away my youngest today!

343 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:04:58pm

re: #340 b_sharp

Does he honestly represent Christianity? Then yes.

Is he a maniacal (word of the day), bigoted, religious nut case that nobody in their right mind would have any contact? Then no.

Yeah. Somehow I couldn't see him fitting in with the Lower Manhattan culture. Stranger things have happened of course.

344 albusteve  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:05:07pm

re: #327 McSpiff

I think so. Wherever the USAF Academy is.

the Springs...yes

345 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:05:32pm

re: #337 Charles

I did not know that one.

We live in contentious times.

Oh well.

Maybe it will calm down later.

346 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:06:04pm

re: #340 b_sharp

Does he honestly represent Christianity? Then yes.

Is he a maniacal (word of the day), bigoted, religious nut case that nobody in their right mind would have any contact? Then no.

The problem is, in America, no one really gets to decide on an official basis if you are a real Christian or not.

Now, I could see excluding the Phelpses, on the grounds that they're not gonna be good neighbors, but this guy? There's no law against being a bigoted, religious nut case.

347 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:06:33pm

re: #336 Gus 802

EIFS better install it correctly.

348 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:07:34pm

re: #325 LudwigVanQuixote

My Yiddish is mostly odd phrases and cuss words I picked up from my Gran... :)

However, I think I will like the challenge of figuring out the translation.

Thanks much for the mail.

Another four songs comin' up. One is not enough for your nephew.

I hope you will play them for him instead of "Baby Einstein" tapes. Much better stuff.

349 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:07:43pm

re: #327 McSpiff

I think so. Wherever the USAF Academy is.

Largest concentration of mega-churches is California according this study. Regionally it's the Southeast.

[Link: hirr.hartsem.edu...]

350 Ojoe  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:09:01pm

EIFS = exterior insulation and finish system.

BBL

351 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:13:01pm

Here's a map: Where Megachurches Are Concentrated

And for the outside "observers": no, I have nothing against megachurches.

352 Bob Levin  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:14:24pm

re: #348 Cato the Elder

I'm not sure if this is relevant--but I'll post this and then I have to go.

Your text to link...

353 tnguitarist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:15:47pm

re: #349 Gus 802

Largest concentration of mega-churches is California according this study. Regionally it's the Southeast.

[Link: hirr.hartsem.edu...]

I assumed the SE would have the most. Before I even look at the link, I'll guess that Florida has quite a few.

354 robdouth  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:17:26pm

re: #337 Charles

Muslims have actually been holding prayer services there for quite a while, in the abandoned Burlington coat factory, and nobody ever complained.

I don't know what you are talking about, I complained because it made purchasing my new coat very awkward for me. How can I find a nice new windbreaker with all that racket.

355 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:22:47pm

re: #311 b_sharp

I disagree, my argument hasn't changed. My argument is a church is not granted a constitutional guarantee to build anywhere or any type of structure they want just because they're a religious organization. My second argument is the public does have a right to say what goes in their neighborhoods. The argument I keep getting here is that understanding is somehow illegitimate, that "property rights end at the border", that people don't have that right when they obviously do. In Indianapolis, like most places, it's the law. They HAVE to have public hearings. If putting up a building only depends on what's allowed by the local codes then they wouldn't even have public hearings but that's obviously not the case.

356 What, me worry?  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:24:53pm

Afternoon all.

The ADL is a fair organization set up to stop the defamation of Jews, but also religious bigotry of any kind. They certainly speak out against anti-Muslim bigotry.

ADL Asks Judge to Reconsider Contempt Citation for Muslim Woman Wearing Head Scarf in Court
ADL Statement on Dennis Prager's Attack On Muslim Congressman for Taking Oath of Office on Koran
ADL Honors Tunisian Muslim For Protecting Jews From The Nazis During The Holocaust
ADL Condemns Congressman Tancredo's Repeated Anti-Muslim Threats
ADL Condemns Hate Crime Against Pakistani Muslim In Brooklyn
The ADL rarely gets a fair shake by Republicans. Maybe this is the reason. That they have the "audacity" to support Muslims, any Muslim. The truth is, they strive for even-handedness. I say this because it would be wrong to assume the ADL's stand on the community center has something to do with Muslim bigotry nor should it be proof that they have joined the wingut bandwagon on this issue. It doesn't and they haven't. It's about sensitivity. Well, that's what they say and I have to believe them.

I'm a little torn on the issue, personally. I'm actually leaning towards the idea of forming better relations with non-Muslims, but I can't stop by feel trepidation about the whole thing.

357 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:28:28pm

I came back because on my way home I drove by my folks house and there is an open lot down the street that is the perfect example for what I'm saying. 7 years or so a church bought the open lot with the plan of putting up a church. It's obviously within the city code for that type of structure (there's a church less than 1/4 mile down the road) but their parking lot would have butted up against the backyards of a nice subdivision. The church ended up being denied a permit because the people in the area didn't want to have to deal with a church and the associated traffic and noise on a Sunday morning and they expressed that during the public hearing. They already have a big high school down the street and they didn't want to deal with that kind of mess 6 out of 7 days of the week. Now, does that make the neighborhood a bigoted area? Was the church denied its first amendment rights? Of course not.

358 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:28:45pm

re: #356 marjoriemoon

Afternoon all.

The ADL is a fair organization set up to stop the defamation of Jews, but also religious bigotry of any kind. They certainly speak out against anti-Muslim bigotry.

ADL Asks Judge to Reconsider Contempt Citation for Muslim Woman Wearing Head Scarf in Court
ADL Statement on Dennis Prager's Attack On Muslim Congressman for Taking Oath of Office on Koran
ADL Honors Tunisian Muslim For Protecting Jews From The Nazis During The Holocaust
ADL Condemns Congressman Tancredo's Repeated Anti-Muslim Threats
ADL Condemns Hate Crime Against Pakistani Muslim In Brooklyn
The ADL rarely gets a fair shake by Republicans. Maybe this is the reason. That they have the "audacity" to support Muslims, any Muslim. The truth is, they strive for even-handedness. I say this because it would be wrong to assume the ADL's stand on the community center has something to do with Muslim bigotry nor should it be proof that they have joined the wingut bandwagon on this issue. It doesn't and they haven't. It's about sensitivity. Well, that's what they say and I have to believe them.

I'm a little torn on the issue, personally. I'm actually leaning towards the idea of forming better relations with non-Muslims, but I can't stop by feel trepidation about the whole thing.

Interesting... nothing in the world is just black and white... is it? This highlights how issues are not always either/or, good or bad, and you just can't neatly plop something into a comfortable bucket.

Interesting.

359 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:29:54pm

re: #358 Walter L. Newton

Who would have imagined me being the one having to defend the ADL. Next I'll be the one defending the SPLC.

360 freetoken  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:31:22pm

re: #357 RogueOne

Zoning issues for meeting places is not uncommon.

However, it should be pointed out yet again that the proposed center in Manhattan was approved by the zoning board.

361 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:32:46pm

re: #360 freetoken

Zoning issues for meeting places is not uncommon.

However, it should be pointed out yet again that the proposed center in Manhattan was approved by the zoning board.

approval by the zoning board is just one hurdle to clear. Like I said in the previous post, it comes down to more than just what is allowed by code.

362 What, me worry?  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:33:27pm

re: #357 RogueOne

I came back because on my way home I drove by my folks house and there is an open lot down the street that is the perfect example for what I'm saying. 7 years or so a church bought the open lot with the plan of putting up a church. It's obviously within the city code for that type of structure (there's a church less than 1/4 mile down the road) but their parking lot would have butted up against the backyards of a nice subdivision. The church ended up being denied a permit because the people in the area didn't want to have to deal with a church and the associated traffic and noise on a Sunday morning and they expressed that during the public hearing. They already have a big high school down the street and they didn't want to deal with that kind of mess 6 out of 7 days of the week. Now, does that make the neighborhood a bigoted area? Was the church denied its first amendment rights? Of course not.

That happens all the time. It happened in my neighbor too. For us, it was a closed church that was going to be bought by a charter school. Our community is small and there is no way we can support the kind of traffic created by the school without making our lives miserable. We marched on city hall and we won.

In the end, I say it's in the hands of the NYers. Not that we can't have an opinion, but whatever they ultimately decide we should all accept.

363 tnguitarist  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:33:53pm

re: #357 RogueOne

Complaining about the noise and such is a legitimate beef. Are people complaining about the noise is downtown NYC?

364 What, me worry?  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:34:20pm

re: #358 Walter L. Newton

Interesting... nothing in the world is just black and white... is it? This highlights how issues are not always either/or, good or bad, and you just can't neatly plop something into a comfortable bucket.

Interesting.

Indeed. First Amendment rights also belong to the community, not just the builders. But like I say, the NYers have to decide what they want in their neighborhoods.

365 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:38:00pm

one my favs from con rights

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

366 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:38:03pm

re: #362 marjoriemoon

That happens all the time. It happened in my neighbor too. For us, it was a closed church that was going to be bought by a charter school. Our community is small and there is no way we can support the kind of traffic created by the school without making our lives miserable. We marched on city hall and we won.

In the end, I say it's in the hands of the NYers. Not that we can't have an opinion, but whatever they ultimately decide we should all accept.

Annoying thing, that Constitution, how dare it give people the right to oppose other people rights.

367 What, me worry?  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:38:07pm

I seem to be having a problem typing clearly... hope you all don't hold that against me. I'm still recovering from vacation lol

368 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:38:15pm

re: #363 tnguitarist

Complaining about the noise and such is a legitimate beef. Are people complaining about the noise is downtown NYC?

I'm not even trying to argue that some, if not most, of the uproar is coming from people who are more concerned with the Islam portion of the building than the building itself. My biggest beef is that in coming to their defense most of the people here are trying to deny the majority of the people in that neighborhood their right to decide what's appropriate. Whether we like it or not, that is the way it works.

369 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:39:11pm

re: #368 RogueOne

no, no it isn't

370 joest73  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:40:02pm

re: #267 pharmmajor

Notice that while the ADL disagrees, they still say that the center's proponents have the right to build there. That's a key difference from the people saying they'll blow up the center if it's built.

In the end they do have the right to open the community center near the WTC site. Any threats to "blow up" the center can't be tolerated.
I'm torn on whether we need to be more tolerant of a religion that has an extreme fringe that flew planes into the WTC or if the people that want to open the community center should be more tolerant and decide to open the community center in another part of the city.

As a catholic.....I know I have little room to speak of "extreme fringes".

The ADL link now shows a "HTTP/1.1 500 Server Error". Did Drudge link to it?

371 b_sharp  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:40:41pm

re: #364 marjoriemoon

Indeed. First Amendment rights also belong to the community, not just the builders. But like I say, the NYers have to decide what they want in their neighborhoods.

Is the fact it is going to be Islamic, situated close to where Islamic fundamentalists destroyed buildings and killed innocent people a valid criterion for making that decision?

That is the link being made.

It wasn't the Muslims requesting to have a Mosque there that killed those people, but they seem to be guilty by association. Enough guilt apparently that they should be refused a permit.

372 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:41:04pm

re: #369 SpaceJesus

no, no it isn't

Why do you believe a church has a 1st amendment right that supersedes the rights of everyone else?

373 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:44:44pm

re: #372 RogueOne

Why do you believe a church has a 1st amendment right that supersedes the rights of everyone else?


what rights are those pray tell? the right to choose what religions can set up shop in your neighborhood? didn't realize that was a right.

374 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:45:39pm

re: #368 RogueOne

My biggest beef is that in coming to their defense most of the people here are trying to deny the majority of the people in that neighborhood their right to decide what's appropriate.

Pure, unmitigated bullshit. You don't speak for the majority of the people in the neighborhood, you have no idea how they feel but you're all too happy projecting you own opinion on them. Their Community and Zoning boards approved, after proposed land use hearings that the people in the neighborhood participated in. You're the one second guessing the local democratic process, pretending that it has led to an outcome counter to the will of the community.

375 zora  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:46:06pm

re: #372 RogueOne

Why do you believe a church has a 1st amendment right that supersedes the rights of everyone else?

nobody is making that point. nobody but you, i guess.

376 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:46:26pm

oh, rogueone, would you mind explaining to me why you downdinged my link to babalu? that's an awesome case.

377 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:47:19pm

re: #373 SpaceJesus

what rights are those pray tell? the right to choose what religions can set up shop in your neighborhood? didn't realize that was a right.

The right to protest what ever... even if they are wrong... that's the kind of right that is being discussed... the constitutional right to disagree, right or wrong. YOu know what right is being discussed here.

I don't care if they build that mosque, but evidently there are people who do, and for what ever reason, bigoted or legitimate, apparently, unless I missed something, they have the right to oppose that mosque.

378 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:47:31pm

re: #373 SpaceJesus

They have a right to decide what is appropriate for their neighborhood otherwise, like I said, there wouldn't be a need for a public hearing period. They do it everyday to bars, liquor stores, and commercial property. Why should a church have a special 1st amendment right to build what they want, where they want, no one else has?

379 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:48:28pm

re: #376 SpaceJesus

oh, rogueone, would you mind explaining to me why you downdinged my link to babalu? that's an awesome case.

retribution for downdinging me and not responding. If you had responded and downdinged I wouldn't have cared. I'll give it back because that's the kind of guy I am./

380 captdiggs  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:48:58pm

re: #3 Thanos

ADL's gone off the rails on this one for me.

I think they expressed it quite well.
They agree to the "right" to build a mosque but they question the emotional impact on many people affected by 9/11.

381 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:49:44pm

re: #378 RogueOne


because of the free exercise clause. also, those laws against porn and liquor stores tend to be neutral, in other words, they apply to all vendors of those sorts of goods. this applies just to muslims, not to all religious structures.

read babalu and its progeny, you might learn something

382 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:49:58pm

re: #374 goddamnedfrank

Pure, unmitigated bullshit. You don't speak for the majority of the people in the neighborhood, you have no idea how they feel but you're all too happy projecting you own opinion on them. Their Community and Zoning boards approved, after proposed land use hearings that the people in the neighborhood participated in. You're the one second guessing the local democratic process, pretending that it has led to an outcome counter to the will of the community.

Actually it was the first question I asked, has the public hearing time expired. I also said, repeatedly, that I don't live there and I don't really care. You might want to calm down a bit.

383 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:50:54pm

re: #375 zora

nobody is making that point. nobody but you, i guess.

Actually it has been made over and over and over. That's why I keep pointing out that right doesn't actually exist.

384 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:51:27pm

re: #379 RogueOne

im responding to you now, also i don't think i have to respond.

i downdinged you because i disagree with you.

are you downdinging me because you disagree with the supreme court?

385 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:51:27pm

With that I'm taking off, enjoy the rest of the night folks.

386 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:52:16pm

re: #385 RogueOne

With that I'm taking off, enjoy the rest of the night folks.


enjoy not knowing anything about the law of the united states

387 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:52:16pm

re: #384 SpaceJesus

im responding to you now, also i don't think i have to respond.

i downdinged you because i disagree with you.

are you downdinging me because you disagree with the supreme court?

I took it back, I rarely downding even if I disagree. I did it to get your attention.

388 jordash1212  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:52:19pm

Don't down-ding me bro!

389 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:52:51pm

re: #386 SpaceJesus

enjoy not knowing anything about the law of the united states

except that's one time I'll downding. Enjoy not understanding how the whole building process works. Good thing you're not a GC.

390 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:53:52pm

re: #378 RogueOne

They have a right to decide what is appropriate for their neighborhood otherwise, like I said, there wouldn't be a need for a public hearing period. They do it everyday to bars, liquor stores, and commercial property. Why should a church have a special 1st amendment right to build what they want, where they want, no one else has?

They held regular public land use hearings, the people in the neighborhood all got proper notice and those with an interest showed up to the hearings and spoke or mailed in their opinions. The project was approved. Why can't you grasp this?

391 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:54:16pm

re: #389 RogueOne


good thing your not an attorney

392 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 2:54:27pm

*e

393 captdiggs  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 3:02:48pm

re: #159 Charles

if you read what Imam Rauf has written about jihad and extremism,.


He also plays the moral equivalency, and blame America, cards.

""60 Minutes" interview a few weeks after the 9/11 attacks, Imam Feisal said, "The United States' policies were an accessory to the crime that happened."
[Link: wcbstv.com...]

394 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 3:05:15pm

re: #389 RogueOne

Enjoy not understanding how the whole building process works.

LOL. Have you ever even been to an urban proposed land use / building construction hearing? I have and I know how the entire process works. You're the one drowning in their own ignorance of the situation.

395 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 3:07:16pm

re: #393 captdiggs

From your link:

* He has not condemned Hamas as a terrorist organization.

* There are reports he was behind the funding of the flotilla which tried to break the blockade of Gaza.

And in a "60 Minutes" interview a few weeks after the 9/11 attacks, Imam Feisal said, "The United States' policies were an accessory to the crime that happened."

#1 is from an interview with someone who is unreliable, #2 is wrong, therefore I wouldn't accept #3 without a link with an actual quotation. Got one?

396 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 3:12:14pm

re: #327 McSpiff

Yes. Alot of large churches are in Colorado Springs, along with Focus on the Family, which I loathe.

397 What, me worry?  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 3:14:58pm

re: #371 b_sharp

Is the fact it is going to be Islamic, situated close to where Islamic fundamentalists destroyed buildings and killed innocent people a valid criterion for making that decision?

That is the link being made.

It wasn't the Muslims requesting to have a Mosque there that killed those people, but they seem to be guilty by association. Enough guilt apparently that they should be refused a permit.

Sorry... neighbor at the door.

I think yes, your first question, it's a valid concern. While it was a trauma the whole nation experienced, it was obviously felt more acutely there. Emotions don't make "legal" sense. It's a fear which I understand, something I am personally trying to shake. Some people have a harder time moving past it.

398 captdiggs  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 3:39:24pm

re: #395 wrenchwench

The link for that quote is the one I gave, CBS. There are dozens of links for that quote. After all, he said it on 60 minutes.

And that one simple quote belies all the political correctness.
He clearly and unequivocally placed at least partial blame for the 9/11 attack on America.

399 eightyfiv  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 3:39:58pm

Hm. NYTimes even picked up the story. They paraphrase an interesting quote from Foxman:

In a phone interview, he compared the idea of a mosque near ground zero to the Roman Catholic Carmelite nuns who had a convent at the Auschwitz death camp. In 1993, Pope John Paul II responded to Jewish protests by ordering the nuns to move.

Personally, that comparison makes the the "Please don't" attitude a lot more plausble to me -- asking Cordoba to keep a respectful distance.

400 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 3:44:34pm

re: #383 RogueOne

Actually it has been made over and over and over. That's why I keep pointing out that right doesn't actually exist.

The "right" that you, and only you, keep mentioning?

401 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 3:46:21pm

re: #356 marjoriemoon

Afternoon all.

The ADL is a fair organization set up to stop the defamation of Jews, but also religious bigotry of any kind. They certainly speak out against anti-Muslim bigotry.

ADL Asks Judge to Reconsider Contempt Citation for Muslim Woman Wearing Head Scarf in Court
ADL Statement on Dennis Prager's Attack On Muslim Congressman for Taking Oath of Office on Koran
ADL Honors Tunisian Muslim For Protecting Jews From The Nazis During The Holocaust
ADL Condemns Congressman Tancredo's Repeated Anti-Muslim Threats
ADL Condemns Hate Crime Against Pakistani Muslim In Brooklyn
The ADL rarely gets a fair shake by Republicans. Maybe this is the reason. That they have the "audacity" to support Muslims, any Muslim. The truth is, they strive for even-handedness. I say this because it would be wrong to assume the ADL's stand on the community center has something to do with Muslim bigotry nor should it be proof that they have joined the wingut bandwagon on this issue. It doesn't and they haven't. It's about sensitivity. Well, that's what they say and I have to believe them.

I'm a little torn on the issue, personally. I'm actually leaning towards the idea of forming better relations with non-Muslims, but I can't stop by feel trepidation about the whole thing.

This is an excellent post. In general, the ADL is an honorable organization. However, this time, I can only feel the deepest regret and outrage that they betrayed their own principles with this so badly while representing my people.

402 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 3:48:12pm

re: #398 captdiggs

The link for that quote is the one I gave, CBS. There are dozens of links for that quote. After all, he said it on 60 minutes.

And that one simple quote belies all the political correctness.
He clearly and unequivocally placed at least partial blame for the 9/11 attack on America.

The link you gave was to a pathetic article that did not give a source for the statements I posted in #395, except this:


Critics of the project at 45 Park Place said that this is not just for community outreach. They said the mosque will be used as a radical Islamic recruiting center. And they pointed to some of the things the imam has said -- and some things he refuses to say.

what follows is what I put in #395. Until I see the unedited clip from 60 Minutes, it has no credibility. If, as you say, there are dozens of links for it, perhaps you could provide one.

403 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 3:56:46pm

re: #399 eightyfiv

that situation is a bit more convoluted

404 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 4:00:12pm

re: #397 marjoriemoon

Sorry... neighbor at the door.

I think yes, your first question, it's a valid concern. While it was a trauma the whole nation experienced, it was obviously felt more acutely there. Emotions don't make "legal" sense. It's a fear which I understand, something I am personally trying to shake. Some people have a harder time moving past it.

OK, so let's say I hear you completely.

I really do.

A good way to move past it is to remember several things:

1. Islam is not monolithic. Given the terrible history of relations between Jews and Christians, should you be opposed to people building churches? If you aren't - and I hope you aren't, some possible reasons to not be opposed to the construction of new churches is that Christianity is not monolithic either. Most Christians are not keen on re-starting the inquisition and moreover most of them would be appalled by it. The same applies to American Muslims.

2. We should only punish the guilty. To do otherwise is to simply be racist. If you meet someone who is German, do you hate them? I bring that one up because, honestly when I was younger and I first went to graduate school, I met some real live actual Germans. I could not help a pit in my stomach when I met them. Then I realized that blaming someone for the sins of their grandparents was just wrong.

3. American rights and liberties stem from freedom of speech and freedom of religion - in short freedom to believe as you will without being persecuted for it. Going down the slippery slope of making exceptions in order to assuage what is ultimately a charge of guilt by association and latent racism on your part is a loss for all of America.

4. In the long run the problem in 3 is a loss for you too. There are plenty who would rather not see a synagogue or a kosher bakery built as well. There are plenty who have issues with setting up an eruv. But it goes further than that. There are plenty who will have whatever grudge against this form or protestant or that form of Catholic. Would you argue that a Church that openly accepted gays should be closed or not built? You know full well that many in this nation feel that way to the point of violence. By making America free, the founding forefathers had the sense to prevent all of that, by taking it off the board.

5. American Muslims are just as American as you. give them the same honor for their faith as you would expect in return. Just like you respect the rights of Christians even though some tell you that are going to burn in hell for being a Jew.

405 Bob Levin  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 4:09:53pm

re: #404 LudwigVanQuixote

Not to mention that in nearly 10 years, someone else could have bought this hallowed property, hired their own architects, went through the zoning rigmarole--but no one person or organization did. I take this as an indication of how much folks actually care about this land.

Just popped in for a second.

406 mardukhai  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 4:20:38pm

re: #15 azizhp

Actually, the ADL was founded long before the Holocaust, and was heavily involved in the fight against racial segregation.

Frankly, I'm surprised that Foxman and his group took this stand. They tend to be lily-livered.

What right, for example, did the ADL have to "accept" Oliver's Stone's two-faced apology? I didn't give them that right.

407 robdouth  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 4:23:47pm

re: #404 LudwigVanQuixote


2. We should only punish the guilty. To do otherwise is to simply be racist. If you meet someone who is German, do you hate them? I bring that one up because, honestly when I was younger and I first went to graduate school, I met some real live actual Germans. I could not help a pit in my stomach when I met them. Then I realized that blaming someone for the sins of their grandparents was just wrong.


Ugh, how is it racist? I imagine you're talking about islam and comparing it to Germans, but how is this racism?

408 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 4:46:38pm

The entire ADL Press Center is now down, not the website, just the Press Center. All press releases are currently inaccessible due to "server error."

409 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 4:58:03pm

re: #326 tnguitarist

Is it Colorado Springs that has the concentration of those huge churches?


Yes, and Colorado Springs is sort of ground zero for political evangelical organizations, some of the bat-shit insane variety, like Focus on the Family

410 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 5:47:04pm
411 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 5:52:15pm

re: #410 bj

No, three blocks away from the site of the twin towers is nothing like building on top of Solomon's temple. At all.

412 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 5:52:42pm

Oh, for Pete's sake.

413 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 5:53:37pm

I think I missed the part where "massive, obvious bigotry" is part of the healing process.

414 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 5:56:51pm
415 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 5:57:44pm
416 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 6:04:20pm

re: #414 bj

Really? You are entitled to your opinion.

In what way is two blocks away from the twin towers similar to the temple of Solomon?

Do you care about anything else in the area-- check cashing places, strip clubs, etc.?

417 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 6:06:08pm

re: #416 Obdicut

In what way is two blocks away from the twin towers similar to the temple of Solomon?

Do you care about anything else in the area-- check cashing places, strip clubs, etc.?

Don't forget the Amish Market, that will now have to dwell in the shadows of sharia.

cough

418 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 6:17:11pm

I remember going on pilgrimage with my grandfather and the other sweatshop tailors to see the Holy Temple of the Burlington Coat Factory Building.

419 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 6:23:29pm
420 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 6:24:31pm
421 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 6:43:50pm

re: #419 bj

First you compare it to building on Solomon's temple, now you're saying it's none of your business and New Yorker's should handle it.

You make no sense.

422 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 7:08:47pm
423 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 7:13:05pm

re: #415 bj

Good taste and respect are needed in times of healing.

There is massive hypocrisy in this statement.

424 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 7:25:42pm

re: #422 abbynorm


was it a lobotomy

425 coldpizza  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 7:28:03pm

hvn't pstd hr n bt yr thnk? Bt th tn rnd hr sr hs chngd? hv t sy gr wth th DL sttmnt, nd tht th fct f th Msq bng thr blcks wy s n ss.
slmc xtrmsts flw plns nt th bldngs nd ts sr pnt nd hnstly n nslt t vn prss th pnt f why d thy vn nd msq ( cmmnty Cntr) n tht r.. ts lk rbbng slt nt stll pn wnd. sk yrslf wld th S bld Msm fr th "tmc bmb" n th hrt f Hrshm?

jstmy 2 cnts...

426 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 7:31:09pm
427 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 7:36:12pm

re: #425 coldpizza


how is this anything like that. like at all.

the only way this could be an outrage is if al qaeda built a statue of osama bin laden near ground zero or something akin that.

al qaeda attacked the united states, islam did not attack the united states. this simple concept doesn't seem to sink in with people on the right.

428 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 7:42:44pm
429 abbynorm  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 7:43:34pm

Thy ttckd n th nm f slm nd thy wr mslm.
n thr vrsn f slm vryn tsd f wht thy blv, vn thr mslms, s glty. Thrfr t s k t kll thm.

430 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 7:48:06pm

re: #428 coldpizza

i dont even understand how this invalidates anything i just pointed out

(even if it's true or not)

431 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 7:49:28pm

Nuts coming out of the woodwork.

432 Gus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 7:51:46pm

re: #431 Charles

Nuts coming out of the woodwork.

Image: wingnuts-sign.png

433 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 7:57:26pm

why are the crazies always late to the show?

434 simoom  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 8:19:53pm

Hey, at least we've finally been given the distance the hollowed sphere of sanctity extends:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

The issue was wrenching for the Anti-Defamation League, which in the past has spoken out against anti-Islamic sentiment. But its national director, Abraham H. Foxman, said in an interview on Friday that the organization came to the conclusion that the location was offensive to families of victims of Sept. 11, and he suggested that the center’s backers should look for a site “a mile away.”

“It’s the wrong place,” Mr. Foxman said. “Find another place.”

I imagine that Mr. Foxman will shortly be calling for the removal of all houses of worship within that 1 mile radius? Or perhaps just a ban on all future religious construction or building renovations within that holy zone? ///

This seems to be the crux of Foxman's argument:

Asked why the opposition of the families was so pivotal in the decision, Mr. Foxman, a Holocaust survivor, said they were entitled to their emotions.

“Survivors of the Holocaust are entitled to feelings that are irrational,” he said. Referring to the loved ones of Sept. 11 victims, he said, “Their anguish entitles them to positions that others would categorize as irrational or bigoted.”

But he's clearly not just saying they're entitled to those opinions, as he's calling for the center to be relocated. So perhaps it's that any fraction of the 9/11 families, in perpetuity, has a veto over anything planned in that 1 mile zone?

435 Cineaste  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 8:26:58pm

Late to this thread but this is a sad day. I wrote the ADL to express how shameful this statement is. They have lost all credibility in calling out the intolerance of others by allowing themselves to be a vehicle of intolerance themselves. It's very sad and Abe Foxman should be forced out.

436 jordash1212  Fri, Jul 30, 2010 9:29:35pm

re: #435 Cineaste

It just doesn't make sense how they represent the victims of Jewish intolerance yet stand by and approve of such prejudice.

437 boxhead  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 12:11:35am

re: #6 sffilk

This is one case where I'm left totally speechless.

I agree, I was speechless till I saw your post and it allowed me to do a "me too". :p

Our Constitution matters. It is not negotiable unless you follow the Amendment process. That is why USA is awesome!

438 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 12:19:04am

Well dammit, I missed all the crazy wingnuts!

439 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 12:22:25am

re: #368 RogueOne

I'm not even trying to argue that some, if not most, of the uproar is coming from people who are more concerned with the Islam portion of the building than the building itself. My biggest beef is that in coming to their defense most of the people here are trying to deny the majority of the people in that neighborhood their right to decide what's appropriate. Whether we like it or not, that is the way it works.

if what they want is unconstitutional?

Yes, that is exactly correct. that is precisely correct. A neighborhood does not get to do anything they want to a minority, even if they all agree.

you don't seem to get this, and I don't understand why, you've been plainly shown all the resources you need by SpaceJesus, and you just continue to assert things that aren't true.

440 ClaudeMonet  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 12:40:23am

re: #113 sattv4u2

OT , (now that we're over 100 posts)

My 16 year old son asked for Halo Reach for his b'day (he already has 2 other Halo games)

He's asking for the special (or limited) edition

$150!!! (his games usually run $50-60)

"I'll give you half. Get a job and work for the rest."

441 ClaudeMonet  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 1:19:55am

re: #228 RogueOne

Actually, it doesn't. It's part of the whole democracy thing. If the rest of the neighborhood agrees with me the building doesn't get put up.

The building IS up. As far as I know, the Muslim group is doing no exterior change. It's strictly interior remodeling and a different use.

re: #234 Kefirah

and if the rest of the neighborhood would prefer that the african.american family doesn't move into the joneses' old house, what then?

My parents were involved in exactly this kind of situation 45 years ago, when we lived in suburban Pittsburgh. The street had a restrictive covenant that said that non-whites were not permitted to own a house there (about 15-20 lots). A family that was the worst sort of "white trash" (if something was missing from your lawn/garage/house, you knew where to look first) finally moved away, and the proposed new owners were black. The proposal to delete the restrictive covenant was hotly contested and barely passed. There was still bad blood about it a year-plus later when we moved away.

As it turned out, the "dreaded black family" consisted of a senior Westinghouse exec, his school assistant principal wife, and their honor student son. Best upgrade the street ever got.

re: #256 Cato the Elder

Yeah, I did hear about that, on the periphery of consciousness. Can it be fixed, or must we blame the Muslims?

It is obviously the fault of George W. Bush. //

re: #351 Gus 802

Here's a map: Where Megachurches Are Concentrated

And for the outside "observers": no, I have nothing against megachurches.

Nor do I, except when I'm driving by one around the time they're getting ready to start services or letting out.

re: #401 ludwigvanquixote

This is an excellent post. In general, the ADL is an honorable organization. However, this time, I can only feel the deepest regret and outrage that they betrayed their own principles with this so badly while representing my people.

Well said. Expresses my opinion better than I could have. I intend to fire off a screed to the ADL tomorrow, when perhaps I'll be able to avoid using phrases like "way to pander to those who hate us, YOU ASSHOLES".

442 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 1:53:15am

I agree with the ADL that the commujhnity center is rather a bad idea, but they have every right to build it.

I do not feel any outrage or any need to try and stop it being built, and I believe that most of its opponents are doing it out of bigotry and/or calculating political expediency.

443 judithet  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 4:24:37am

The Pantheon, the Roman temple to all the gods, is now a Christian church, a symbol of Christianity's triumph over the Roman state and Roman religion. The Dome of the Rock and the al-Aqsa mosque symbolize the victory of Islam over Judaism. The 13 story mosque built near Ground Zero symbolizes the completion of Islam's victory over America that began with the murder of nearly 3000 people on September 11. It is a victory dance on the grave of the dead. Some deeds are beyond the simplicities of law. Some deeds are the death of the law.

444 RogueOne  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 4:33:36am

re: #439 WindUpBird

if what they want is unconstitutional?

Yes, that is exactly correct. that is precisely correct. A neighborhood does not get to do anything they want to a minority, even if they all agree.

you don't seem to get this, and I don't understand why, you've been plainly shown all the resources you need by SpaceJesus, and you just continue to assert things that aren't true.

That's is just it, it ISN'T unconstitutional to not want a religious facility next door. Spacejesus doesn't know what he's talking about. All you have to do is a short google search and you'll find dozens and dozens of similiar situations where the community didn't want a church in their area and even though it was permitted by codes and commissions they didn't get built.

New Church:
[Link: www.times-herald.com...]

The Coweta County Planning Department recommended approval of the request.

Denied anyway.

Church Renovations:
Motives questioned when mosque building permit denied: Marietta, GA
[Link: www.accessnorthga.com...]

Church denied special use permits:
Church sues city of Muskegon over denied permit
[Link: blog.mlive.com...]

The planning commission's denials of the special-use permit came after opposition to the church's request by several people who live or do business in the area, including the owners of two nearby bars who feared negative consequences for their businesses.


Stopped by bar owners which I find especially funny.

SpaceJesus needs to keep studying and some of you need to stop pretending religious facilities have a 1st amendment right to put up buildings where the rest of us don't want them.

445 Dom  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 6:14:53am

Proximity to the towers is irrelevant and there are no grounds to refuse permission but these large Islamic centres are worth keeping an eye on to be sure they are properly managed and indeed are not vested with jihadi political ideals. I don't know what groups plan to make use of the new building and am not especially circumspect so that's all I'll say about it.

446 Laughing Gas  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 6:17:55am

The Marine officer, Ilario Pantano, who was accused of murder in Iraq (charges dropped) is now running as a Republican in North Carolina. Apparently, he's joined the Palin/Gingrich bandwagon and made the non-construction of the center a major part of his platform.

447 jewpi  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 7:47:04am

re: #62 Alouette

"jewpi.com is nothing but a collection of everyone who follows @jewishbloggers on twitter. If Pamela Geller follows @jewishbloggers then her stuff will get posted at jewpi.com"

No, jewpi.com is a collection of carefully selected sources. As of today there are 1818 active Jewish and Israeli blogs and hundreds of news sources on my watchlist which is being maintained manually on daily basis.

448 kamala  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 8:07:37am

re: #445 Dom

And if you knew it would be "vested with jihadi political ideals," you'd oppose it?

449 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 8:25:26am

re: #444 RogueOne

Stopped by bar owners which I find especially funny.

SpaceJesus needs to keep studying and some of you need to stop pretending religious facilities have a 1st amendment right to put up buildings where the rest of us don't want them.

It might help if you stopped pretending:

A) That a building is being put up, when it's not

B) That the objection to this is that it's a religious building, not that it's being done by Muslims.

Think you can do that?

450 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 10:23:46am

So much stupid in this thread.

Rogue, what little respect I had for you prior to this is gone. You are a fucking scumbag.

451 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 10:30:35am

re: #444 RogueOne

Stopped by bar owners which I find especially funny.

SpaceJesus needs to keep studying and some of you need to stop pretending religious facilities have a 1st amendment right to put up buildings where the rest of us don't want them.


you are retarded. try learning some critical reading skills. also, shame on you for making me do this this morning when i have a hangover and am in no mood to lecture you on the law again. anyway as to your post,


New Church:
[Link: [Link: www.times-herald.com...]...]

this church was denied a permit because of traffic concerns.

Church Renovations:
Motives questioned when mosque building permit denied: Marietta, GA
[Link: [Link: www.accessnorthga.com...]...]

mosque wanted to put up a giant spire, a neutral ordinance against structures exceeding 25 feet in height was already in place. also, the city was very careful not to say it was done because it was a mosque.

Church denied special use permits:
Church sues city of Muskegon over denied permit
[Link: blog.mlive.com...]

the permit here was denied because the commissioners saw the area the church wanted to build in as being a commercial area not fit for a church. also the church had tax exempt status in area where nobody else has it (all churches have tax exempt status). it was not denied on the grounds that this church's particular faith was offensive. this case still sounds unconstitutional to me though, OH WAIT, LOOK, IT WAS


UPDATE YOU LYING BASTARD:


MUSKEGON, Mich. — A Michigan church has reached a favorable settlement in a lawsuit filed by an Alliance Defense Fund allied attorney against the city of Muskegon. The city planning commission had unlawfully prohibited the church from using a vacant car dealership as a house of worship but has now agreed to allow the congregation to use the building.

"Churches should not be singled out for discrimination by a city’s zoning restrictions or desire for tax dollars, and the city of Muskegon should be commended for understanding this,” said ADF-allied attorney Daniel Dalton, who represented Celebration Community Church. “Other cities should follow Muskegon’s lead in recognizing the rights of churches to worship on their legitimately chosen property.”

Immediately after the church filed suit in late March, the city asked to settle the case with the church, and both parties were directed into mediation. The city council approved the settlement on June 24, with the city agreeing to allow the church to use the contested property for religious purposes as the congregation originally desired.


why don't you learn how to do some proper research before you go spouting off about your lack of knowledge about the law eh?

jesus christ man. what part of, "you can't intentionally discriminate and single out a single religion amid others with a law harming them" don't you understand?

again, read this supreme court decision if you still don't understand why it is illegal to deny a religious group a place of worship based SOLELY on what sect or creed they are :

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]


read this case and what follows it, and you might LEARN SOMETHING

452 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 10:35:26am

[Link: www.alliancedefensefund.org...]

that's the link to the story you forgot to read about the church in muskegon. you know. the one where the church WAS allowed to go ahead because of this little thing called THE LAW


“RLIUPA levels the playing field for religious organizations and prevents zoning officials from engaging in unlawful discrimination,” Dalton added. “Now, the church can freely worship at the location it has legitimately selected.”

453 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 10:57:31am

re: #451 SpaceJesus

Upding for style.

454 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 11:32:20am

re: #447 jewpi

No, jewpi.com is a collection of carefully selected sources. As of today there are 1818 active Jewish and Israeli blogs and hundreds of news sources on my watchlist which is being maintained manually on daily basis.

Maybe it's insignificant for me to complain about a few out of 1800 blogs and news sources, but these I find to be pretty poor sources:

American Thinker
Antiwar.com
Avid Editor
HotAir

Might forward that to the quality control department.

455 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 12:00:52pm

re: #443 judithet

And another sleeper awakes.

456 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 12:01:33pm

re: #433 SpaceJesus

why are the crazies always late to the show?

Because they think they win if they get the last comment.

457 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 1:25:08pm

re: #444 RogueOne

You've been served so many times in this thread you may want to get the check

458 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jul 31, 2010 10:39:35pm

re: #443 judithet

The Pantheon, the Roman temple to all the gods, is now a Christian church, a symbol of Christianity's triumph over the Roman state and Roman religion. The Dome of the Rock and the al-Aqsa mosque symbolize the victory of Islam over Judaism. The 13 story mosque built near Ground Zero symbolizes the completion of Islam's victory over America that began with the murder of nearly 3000 people on September 11. It is a victory dance on the grave of the dead. Some deeds are beyond the simplicities of law. Some deeds are the death of the law.

The al-Aqsa mosque symbolizes the victory of Islam over Judaism how, exactly? Under what circumstances do you imagine it was built there?

Secondly, in what universe do you imagine that building a mosque demonstrates 'victory' over America? We ain't been conquered, nor will we be.

459 krypto  Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:42:24am

I have to disagree with the statement, "if Abe Foxman and the ADL can’t keep their personal feelings out of the issue, they should have just kept quiet instead of handing the Bigot Brigade a public relations gift."

The world is not divided into those who agree with Charles Johnson, those who agree with Robert Spencer, and those who must be silent. Characterizing Foxman's views as "personal" opinions, because they are not either the recognized opinion of either camp is just more of the same "them vs. us and no one else has a right to speak" mentality.

Yes, some Muslims were killed also, it's impossible to define how close is close, the people opposed to the projects includes many outright bigots, etc. Maybe there's really nothing wrong about the Park51 project. But in fact it may very well be hurtful and disrespectful to be building a markedly Islamic structure deliberately just two blocks away from a site where thousands of innocent people were murdered by terrorists whose Muslim religion was very much attached to their actions. And it is valid to question wonder just why that site was chosen, and whether it was a good choice or not - independent of both the bigots who want to deny Muslims their religion and those who say that anyone who openly expresses an opinion contrary to their own is a bigot and a disgrace.

There are many comments around comparing the Park51 project with other possible situations involving one religion building some religious structure near the site of a disaster for a different group. Foxman's comments may very likely be influenced by a very real and sometimes bitter conflict about various Catholic groups in Poland wanting to build Catholic religious structures at Auschwitz:

[Link: www.scrapbookpages.com...]

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

460 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 1, 2010 10:48:26am

re: #459 krypto

Oh please. Exactly where did I say that Foxman "doesn't have the right to speak?"

He has the right to express this stupid and self-defeating opinion, and I have the right to criticize him for it.

461 krypto  Sun, Aug 1, 2010 11:57:02am

re: #460 Charles

Oh please. Exactly where did I say that Foxman "doesn't have the right to speak?"

He has the right to express this stupid and self-defeating opinion, and I have the right to criticize him for it.


=============================================

I quoted your exact words at the beginning of my comment, "if Abe Foxman and the ADL can’t keep their personal feelings out of the issue, they should have kept quiet .... ." That clearly states that he had an obligation not to express his opinions. Obviously everyone agrees that he has a legal right to speak, but you were referring to a moral right, that he should have felt obligated not to speak, and I disagree with that.

Foxman was expressing his opinion about respect for the feelings of the families that suffered losses (opinion, not his mere "personal feelings" that he should therefore keep to himself). I see after checking further that the historical controversy involving efforts to place crosses and build a Carmelite convent at the edge of Auschwitz actually was part of what pushed Foxman in the direction of the opinion he expressed - since it turns out he referred to that earlier controversy in explaining his position, during an interview, on the Mulsim Community Center Project. In fact there are striking similarities.

462 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 1, 2010 4:01:16pm

re: #461 krypto

Foxman was expressing his opinion about respect for the feelings of the families that suffered losses (

Leaving out, of course, the Muslim families.

463 krypto  Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:44:04pm

re: #462 Obdicut

Leaving out, of course, the Muslim families.

True. A minority of the families that suffered losses were Muslim and are less likely to feel bothered by the choice of construction site. But what's your point? That because there were also Muslims killed therefore a Muslim Community Center should be built there even if it is hurtful to other families who suffered losses?

I think Foxman's point was that many of the families (not every single one) in his opinion would find it hurtful to have a Muslim Community Center built on what really is very close to ground zero, and that he believed that made it a bad idea, in fact wrong. I don't think the fact that Muslim families also suffered losses refutes his point - it could be argued that it makes it all the more appropriate to avoid the divisiveness and conflict that comes from that choice of site in the first place.

I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other on the Muslim Community Center, but I am bothered by the extreme reaction to Foxman's statement of his opinion. Things have reached a sorry state when we cannot discuss the kind of issue he raised in an honest and open way because we have to worry that bigots are listening.

464 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:30:39pm

re: #463 krypto

True. A minority of the families that suffered losses were Muslim and are less likely to feel bothered by the choice of construction site.

More that such a thing would bring them happiness and peace.

. But what's your point? That because there were also Muslims killed therefore a Muslim Community Center should be built there even if it is hurtful to other families who suffered losses?

Yep, pretty much. I mean, not that one should be built, but that the rationale of "think of the victims' families" is rather stupid when you have to say, "Well, except for the Muslim families. Fuck them."

it could be argued that it makes it all the more appropriate to avoid the divisiveness and conflict that comes from that choice of site in the first place.

The divisiveness and conflict come from the bigotry opposing it.

Things have reached a sorry state when we cannot discuss the kind of issue he raised in an honest and open way because we have to worry that bigots are listening.

I don't think he's being either honest or open.

465 krypto  Mon, Aug 2, 2010 12:33:49am

re: #464 Obdicut

More that such a thing would bring them happiness and peace.

That claim seems unlikely and contrived. I doubt that it would have any such effect at all.

I"Yep, pretty much. I mean, not that one should be built, but that the rationale of "think of the victims' families" is rather stupid when you have to say, "Well, except for the Muslim families. Fuck them."


The "Fuck them" is your own comment, not something I see Foxman saying or implying. It's not as if any family that suffered a loss therefore should expect a Community Center associated with their religion built nearby, and that Muslim families are being deprived of that right, as your "Fuck them" comment implies.

The divisiveness and conflict come from the bigotry opposing it.


Unless the choice of site was mere coincidence, it comes also from the decision to use the WTC location as a location to make a statement about Islam. It may indeed have been done to cast Islam in a favorable light and intended to promote peace and harmony. But I don't think it takes bigotry for a family that has lost someone to terrorists who claim to act in the name of Islam to feel uncomfortable with next seeing what appears to be a monument to Islam being built very close to the site of the atrocity.

I don't think he's being either honest or open.


I disagree with you. It does appear from his own statements that he was influenced by similarity to the long and bitter conflict between Jewish organizations and the Catholic Church years ago about those crosses and the Camelite convent at the Auschwitz site with the nuns carrying out their self-appointed task of praying for the Jews (and others). He may possibly be mistaken in his opinion that that families of 9/11 victims would feel similarly about the Community Center and the WTC site. (The same argument came up then too - many of those killed in Auschwitz were in fact Polish Catholics.) But I have no doubt that his opinion is honest, whether mistaken or not.

And what exactly do you mean by "open" that you claim he is not discussing it openly - was that too just to disagree?

466 davesax  Mon, Aug 2, 2010 11:34:26am

Whether or not one agrees with Foxman, I think it's true that he should have kept his mouth shut on this one.

467 Steve Dutch  Mon, Aug 2, 2010 1:14:29pm

I've been out of town for a while so I was catching up on my missed LGF's. A week or so ago, there was an aerial photo showing the location of the mosque (and community center, etc.). Between it and GZ was a building captioned "University of Phoenix."

I'm far less offended at the idea of having a mosque at Ground Zero than having a third rate diploma mill like University of Phoenix. Even a crack house would be a step up.

I'm retired U.S. Army with tours in Turkey, Kuwait and Bosnia, if that matters. I've talked to a heck of a lot more Muslims than any of the anti-mosque cranks.

468 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 2, 2010 1:16:12pm

re: #461 krypto

I quoted your exact words at the beginning of my comment...

And then proceeded to completely distort what I wrote. Again, this is very simple -- Foxman has a right to express this opinion. And I have a right to say he should have kept his mouth shut on the issue, because his statement is self-contradictory, illogical, gives ammunition to bigots, and is diametrically opposed to the stated goal of the ADL as a civil rights organization.

What Foxman has achieved with this ill-advised and deeply stupid statement is to degrade the credibility of the ADL.

469 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:44:15am

re: #465 krypto

Yes, the location is a 'coincidence'. It comes from, you know, that Imam starting it having lived in the neighborhood for twenty-plus years, and there being a Muslim community.

I don't think the Carmelite nuns had been living at Auschwitz for twenty years,

470 krypto  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 10:25:04pm

re: #469 Obdicut

Yes, the location is a 'coincidence'. It comes from, you know, that Imam starting it having lived in the neighborhood for twenty-plus years, and there being a Muslim community.

I don't think the Carmelite nuns had been living at Auschwitz for twenty years,


Please, the issue Foxman was addressing was respect for the families that suffered losses and for what would be hurtful to them, at least from his own view – not the relative numbers of years that Carmelite nuns and a New York Imam lived in their respective neighborhoods.


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