The Discovery Institute’s David Klinghoffer says it’s embarrassing to be a conservative, and he should know — as one of the most embarrassing public examples of conservative anti-science creationist bad craziness on the Internet.
Klinghoffer titles this one: “From neocons to crazy-cons.” I shudder to think what he considers “crazy.”
1 |
SpaceJesus Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:14:36pm |
good job saving civilization by trying to destroy its greatest achievement: scientific rational thought.
| 2 |
brookly red Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:15:02pm |
Caring about the opinion of others is an admittance of weakness & defeat.
| 4 |
Eclectic Infidel Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:16:52pm |
Klinghoffer titles this one: “From neocons to crazy-cons.” I shudder to think what he considers “crazy.”
It would be interesting to note, though. I only say this because recently, in a sort of newly formed Zionist & activist group, I've been exposed to people on "the right," and then to Kahanists, which up to now, I've only read about but haven't actually had the [dis]pleasure of actually having conversation with them. Besides, it would give some insight as to how Klinghoffer thinks and that does fascinate me.
| 5 |
jaunte Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:16:53pm |
A new entry for the Poe's Law list.
[Link: rationalwiki.org...]
| 6 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:17:21pm |
re: #1 SpaceJesus
good job saving civilization by trying to destroy its greatest achievement: scientific rational thought.
the taco rates right up there too....be fair
| 7 |
Irenicum Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:18:02pm |
I saw that piece earlier and almost linked to it here, but decided against it. Some of what he says is spot on, but he's obviously got a huge blind spot when it comes to science.
| 8 |
Max Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:18:21pm |
Klinghoffer titles this one: “From neocons to crazy-cons.” I shudder to think what he considers “crazy.”
"Neocons," the most useless word of our generation, is a favorite neologism among Ron Paul fanatics.
It is synonymous with anyone who supports any kind of government assistance, a 21st century monetary system (without the gold standard), abortion rights, evolution, the Iraq War, and/or Israel.
| 9 |
freetoken Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:20:16pm |
From the link:
Weaver describes the course of the revolution in thought that led from a seemingly obscure philosophical debate in the Middle Ages through Darwinian evolutionary theory to class-based determinist theories in economics and onward to contemporary liberal relativism.
He just couldn't resist.
The reality is starting to dawn, though, on the older mainline self-declared conservatives that the new, media (Fox, talk radio) based "conservatism" is all about show and generating conflict to improve ratings in the highly competitive world of the media, rather than hashing out the meaning of ideas and proposing new ideas for society to chew.
Yet everyone here will be well aware of the irony of the DI complaining about "hucksterism"!
If only Klinghoffer would pull the plank out of his own eye.
| 10 |
Eclectic Infidel Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:20:24pm |
re: #4 eclectic infidel
It would be interesting to note, though. I only say this because recently, in a
sort ofnewly formed Zionist&activist group, I've been exposed to people on "the right," and then to Kahanists, which up to now, I've only read about but haven't actually had the [dis]pleasure ofactuallyhaving conversationconversing with them. Besides, it would give some insight as to how Klinghoffer thinks and that does fascinate me.
PIMP
| 11 |
Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:21:00pm |
Just imagine how Corporal Klinger must feel about all this...
| 12 |
Max Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:21:41pm |
I'm pretty sure that Klinghoffer thinks that the conservatives are crazy to not accept Dominonism, intelligent design, comprehensive immigration reform, or an isolationist foreign policy.
| 14 |
brookly red Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:22:01pm |
re: #8 Max D. Reinhardt
"Neocons," the most useless word of our generation, is a favorite neologism among Ron Paul fanatics.
It is synonymous with anyone who supports any kind of government assistance, a 21st century monetary system (without the gold standard), abortion rights, evolution, the Iraq War, and/or Israel.
neocon is a liberal handle... there are no neocons there never were.
| 15 |
HappyWarrior Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:22:46pm |
I found his Whitaker Chambers story kinda funny. He talks about how Chambers I assume found religion after being a Communist but at the same time says Chambers left secularism's materialist world. Communism is a lot of things but materialist it ain't. To his credit, he does slam Breitbart. The problem with the modern conservative movement is that it relies on fear and resentment of those who are different rather than genuine ideas. Notice that you hear the big name conservatives out there rumbling about "elitists" rather than giving genuine ideas. Plus, they're inconsistent as hell too. They whine about "big government" yet are the first people you meet when banning gay marriage comes up or they favor banning gambling and drug use too.
| 16 |
Irenicum Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:22:49pm |
So all the folks who actually self identified as neocon never actually existed? I don't get it.
| 17 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:25:03pm |
re: #14 brookly red
neocon is a liberal handle... there are no neocons there never were.
that notion is worth at least 500 posts....if the universe is only 6000k years old, Dave is merely a smarmy neophyte, probably still suckling in that regard
| 18 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:26:20pm |
re: #16 Irenicum
So all the folks who actually self identified as neocon never actually existed? I don't get it.
there is nothing to get...people call each other all sorts of stuff....labels are for the insecure
| 19 |
darthstar Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:27:53pm |
I think I just found Fox News' next spokesmodel. Move over Megyn Kelly.
| 20 |
Irenicum Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:29:09pm |
re: #18 albusteve
I'm not talking about what people call each other. Back in the 90's there were plenty of people who called themselves neocon. Of course almost nobody self identifies that way anymore. But they certainly did then. So how can we say it never really existed?
| 21 |
darthstar Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:29:27pm |
re: #18 albusteve
there is nothing to get...people call each other all sorts of stuff...labels are for the insecure
You would say that, you neocompadre.
| 22 |
brookly red Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:29:35pm |
re: #17 albusteve
that notion is worth at least 500 posts...if the universe is only 6000k years old, Dave is merely a smarmy neophyte, probably still suckling in that regard
fuck you. i like to be efficient...
| 24 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:32:34pm |
re: #20 Irenicum
I'm not talking about what people call each other. Back in the 90's there were plenty of people who called themselves neocon. Of course almost nobody self identifies that way anymore. But they certainly did then. So how can we say it never really existed?
and I'm the neoPope...think what you will
| 25 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:33:37pm |
re: #22 brookly red
fuck you. i like to be efficient...
about time...two sentences is considered windy for you
| 26 |
darthstar Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:34:14pm |
re: #24 albusteve
and I'm the neoPope...think what you will
Neopope my ass...quasicardinal, maybe...but until I see a white puff of smoke come out your ass, the title of neopope shall be denied.
| 27 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:35:14pm |
re: #19 darthstar
I think I just found Fox News' next spokesmodel. Move over Megyn Kelly.
[Video]
I'm no fan of Fox News.
For all that I disagree with Fox News, I do want to point out that Megyn Kelly is an attorney.
She doesn't really have a whole lot in common with the blonde in your video.
| 28 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:35:27pm |
re: #26 darthstar
Neopope my ass...quasicardinal, maybe...but until I see a white puff of smoke come out your ass, the title of neopope shall be denied.
maintenance is on it...wait one
| 29 |
Irenicum Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:35:35pm |
re: #24 albusteve
So words have no meaning to you? Again, what of the various folks who gladly owned that label back before it fell out of favor? Neo-conservatism has a real history, even if it's been distorted by those who are antagonistic for several reasons, some legit, some quite despicable.
| 30 |
darthstar Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:36:21pm |
re: #27 reine.de.tout
I'm no fan of Fox News.
For all that I disagree with Fox News, I do want to point out that Megyn Kelly is an attorney.
She doesn't really have a whole lot in common with the blonde in your video.
Are you shitting me? She's an attorney just like Nancy Grace? When they took the bar, was it in a limbo contest?
| 31 |
Eclectic Infidel Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:36:47pm |
re: #19 darthstar
a video that never gets old. :)
| 32 |
Gus Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:36:51pm |
re: #20 Irenicum
I'm not talking about what people call each other. Back in the 90's there were plenty of people who called themselves neocon. Of course almost nobody self identifies that way anymore. But they certainly did then. So how can we say it never really existed?
Wiki has a good explanation on Neoconservatism. Looks like it's best to start with History and origins.
| 33 |
darthstar Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:38:07pm |
re: #32 Gus 802
Wiki has a good explanation on Neoconservatism. Looks like it's best to start with History and origins.
If I understand correctly, neoconservatism has evolved? Doesn't that go against their basic doctrine?
| 34 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:38:41pm |
re: #29 Irenicum
So words have no meaning to you? Again, what of the various folks who gladly owned that label back before it fell out of favor? Neo-conservatism has a real history, even if it's been distorted by those who are antagonistic for several reasons, some legit, some quite despicable.
I don't exactly fit a good example of current political nomenclature...sometimes words have meanings, yes....but not so much in this case regardless of the history...pol tabs come and go
| 35 |
HappyWarrior Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:38:46pm |
My guess is the neo-conservative views are associated with being with strongly in favor of the Iraq War and the Bush Administration. Neither of those are too popular at the moment. This conservatism breed we're seeing now in the Obama years seems to be much more populist than the conservatism of the Bush years. I wouldn't be shocked at all if the right becomes somewhat isolationist. Hell we've already seen that to a degree honestly.
| 36 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:39:24pm |
re: #4 eclectic infidel
I only say this because recently, in a sort of newly formed Zionist & activist group, I've been exposed to people on "the right," and then to Kahanists, which up to now, I've only read about but haven't actually had the [dis]pleasure of actually having conversation with them.
:) LOL
| 37 |
Irenicum Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:39:43pm |
re: #32 Gus 802
Actually I've read up on it myself, but thanks for the link anyway. I'm just astonished that people are pretending that it never really existed. It's like the 90's just fell into the memory hole.
| 38 |
Gus Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:39:56pm |
re: #33 darthstar
If I understand correctly, neoconservatism has evolved? Doesn't that go against their basic doctrine?
Looks like it. Seems to have had its start with liberalism according to Wiki and it evolved over time up to its present.
| 39 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:40:07pm |
re: #6 albusteve
the taco rates right up there too...be fair
OK:
The taco
The bra
The repeating rifle
Scientific rational thought
Are we good.
| 40 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:40:29pm |
re: #8 Max D. Reinhardt
"Neocons," the most useless word of our generation, is a favorite neologism among Ron Paul fanatics.
It is synonymous with anyone who supports any kind of government assistance, a 21st century monetary system (without the gold standard), abortion rights, evolution, the Iraq War, and/or Israel.
I consider myself an ethnic neocon.
| 41 |
swamprat Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:40:37pm |
re: #14 brookly red
neocon is a liberal handle... there are no neocons there never were.
It is a slur without any sting. A conservative is a person who wants strong industry so people can be healthy and happy. Liberals want people to be healthy and happy, but they want to drain industry in order to achieve that goal. Industry left to its own devices would treat the population as so much cleanex.
So where is the balance?
Promote industry to the degree that the population benefits.
Regulate industry to the degree that population benefits.
Oh, and also;
Oppose tyranny in all its forms.
| 42 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:41:15pm |
re: #35 HappyWarrior
My guess is the neo-conservative views are associated with being with strongly in favor of the Iraq War and the Bush Administration. Neither of those are too popular at the moment. This conservatism breed we're seeing now in the Obama years seems to be much more populist than the conservatism of the Bush years. I wouldn't be shocked at all if the right becomes somewhat isolationist. Hell we've already seen that to a degree honestly.
I'm still waiting for somebody to explain to me our involvement in Astan and what exactly our purpose is over there....otoh it may be time to invade Mexico....what do you think?
| 43 |
Eclectic Infidel Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:41:17pm |
And on the subject of science...
"Your victim was smothered. That's not an opinion, that's science, and science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14 inch strap-on."
-Masuka, Lead Forensics Investigator on Dexter (Season 3, Ep 4: All in the Family)
| 44 |
HappyWarrior Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:41:38pm |
re: #38 Gus 802
Looks like it. Seems to have had its start with liberalism according to Wiki and it evolved over time up to its present.
Yeah I believe Dick Perle and Paul Wolfowitz were Scoop Jackson staffers originally and I think Perle even had a role in writing the Jackson-Varik Amendment which allowed a lot of Soviet refugees to immigrate here.
| 45 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:42:25pm |
re: #43 eclectic infidel
And on the subject of science...
"Your victim was smothered. That's not an opinion, that's science, and science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14 inch strap-on."
-Masuka, Lead Forensics Investigator on Dexter (Season 3, Ep 4: All in the Family)
I really like Masuka. Does he ever get a girlfriend? I'm behind in the series.
| 46 |
freetoken Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:42:26pm |
Speaking of "conservatives", the NYT ran this piece about Pawlenty today:
In Iowa Tour (Already), Republican Tests His Voice
[...]
With that, the Pawlenty road show began this weekend in Iowa, the place where presidential aspirations are born. It was Mr. Pawlenty’s fifth visit in less than a year, one of many signs that he is working the state as intently as any prospective Republican presidential hopeful.
[...]
Republicans may sharply criticize Mr. Obama’s policies, as Mr. Pawlenty did during a three-day trip here, but they envy his rise. It remains an open question whether a new approach for campaigning will take shape for 2012, but considering the Republican visitors already passing through Iowa, the old method may still be in fashion.
Klinghoffer can write hypocritically all he wants to about the contemporary, shiny media personalities in today's "conservative" circles, but the truth remains about politics in America - the politicians will work the front line with all the usual talking points and methods.
The article does well in pointing out that envy is partly behind the anti-Obama screeds - Barrack Obama has come a long way for a kid born to somewhat poor, even vagrant, parents.
Pawlenty is just another SoCon, a diehard creationist, and probably someone of which Klinghoffer would approve.
| 47 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:42:46pm |
re: #39 SanFranciscoZionist
OK:
The taco
The bra
The repeating rifle
Scientific rational thoughtAre we good.
I'm cool with 2 and 4....
who cares about rational thought....you're kidding, right?
| 48 |
Linden Arden Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:42:54pm |
Weaver observed: "If we feel that creation does not express purpose, it is impossible to find an authorization for purpose in our lives." A life without real purpose is likely to be anxious, restless, prone to bitterness and suspicion. The goal of conservatism was to restore to men and women a metaphysical dream that allows for ultimate meaning in our existence.
Welcome to reality, Weaver (and Klinghoffer).
| 49 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:43:06pm |
re: #44 HappyWarrior
Yeah I believe Dick Perle and Paul Wolfowitz were Scoop Jackson staffers originally and I think Perle even had a role in writing the Jackson-Varik Amendment which allowed a lot of Soviet refugees to immigrate here.
Jackson-Vanik
(Mad English teacher strikes again.)
| 50 |
Irenicum Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:43:11pm |
re: #35 HappyWarrior
You're right about that, though neo-conservatism certainly predates the Bush years. It reached its ascendancy in the 90's and through the Bush years until even Bush got tired of it. And you're quite right that the conservatism of today is returning to the bad old days that give Pat Pukanan wet dreams at the thought of actually coming about. Disgusting.
| 51 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:44:06pm |
re: #43 eclectic infidel
And on the subject of science...
"Your victim was smothered. That's not an opinion, that's science, and science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14 inch strap-on."
-Masuka, Lead Forensics Investigator on Dexter (Season 3, Ep 4: All in the Family)
ouch!...at least he didn't mention cojones
| 52 |
Irenicum Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:44:54pm |
re: #40 SanFranciscoZionist
Sorry then SFZ, apparently then you don't really exist according to some here. Hate to break the ontological bad news to you.
///
| 53 |
Eclectic Infidel Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:45:43pm |
re: #45 SanFranciscoZionist
I really like Masuka. Does he ever get a girlfriend? I'm behind in the series.
In Season 3 he meets an event coordinator when he organizes Dexter's bachelor party. They hit it off and Masuka seems very pleased to learn that "Tami" has a rap sheet.
I have one episode to go so I don't know if anything else develops.
| 54 |
HappyWarrior Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:45:50pm |
re: #49 SanFranciscoZionist
Jackson-Vanik
(Mad English teacher strikes again.)
Ha, thanks for the catch.
| 55 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:46:15pm |
re: #52 Irenicum
Sorry then SFZ, apparently then you don't really exist according to some here. Hate to break the ontological bad news to you.
///
Oh well. I'm apparently also a totalitarian progressive eugenicist (per our crosstown nuisance), so I guess I can be content with that.
| 56 |
Linden Arden Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:46:53pm |
re: #14 brookly red
neocon is a liberal handle... there are no neocons there never were.
Leo Strauss would be surprised to hear that.
The Power of Nightmares is one hell of a good way to begin an argument.
| 57 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:47:35pm |
It's interesting to see the spin going on here -- one of the Discovery Institute's most persistent flacks suddenly doing the concern troll thing. Funny, yet pathetic.
| 58 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:47:42pm |
re: #42 albusteve
I'm still waiting for somebody to explain to me our involvement in Astan and what exactly our purpose is over there...otoh it may be time to invade Mexico...what do you think?
One way to settle part of the immigration issue. Invade and annex Mexico, then they won't be illegal immigrants any more, will they?
//
| 59 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:47:56pm |
re: #50 Irenicum
You're right about that, though neo-conservatism certainly predates the Bush years. It reached its ascendancy in the 90's and through the Bush years until even Bush got tired of it. And you're quite right that the conservatism of today is returning to the bad old days that give Pat Pukanan wet dreams at the thought of actually coming about. Disgusting.
I'm conservative of the yesteryear type, Pukanan means nothing to me
glossies-$10, signed of course
| 60 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:48:00pm |
OT: It took me time to dig up my best landscape photo, so I have to post it here instead on the previous thread.
| 61 |
Gus Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:48:47pm |
re: #37 Irenicum
Actually I've read up on it myself, but thanks for the link anyway. I'm just astonished that people are pretending that it never really existed. It's like the 90's just fell into the memory hole.
I'm acting more like a librarian here but its existence is true and was subjected to the political evolution which reflected many human frailties -- i.e. how neo-con evolved into an insult or the revisionism of Jonah Goldberg and David Horowitz. The last word seems to have come from Irving Kristol in The Neoconservative Persuasion.
| 62 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:50:02pm |
re: #58 oaktree
One way to settle part of the immigration issue. Invade and annex Mexico, then they won't be illegal immigrants any more, will they?
//
sure, and why stop there?
| 63 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:50:18pm |
re: #57 Charles
It's interesting to see the spin going on here -- one of the Discovery Institute's most persistent flacks suddenly doing the concern troll thing. Funny, yet pathetic.
I taught him everything he knows about concerned trolling.
| 64 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:50:48pm |
| 65 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:51:57pm |
re: #45 SanFranciscoZionist
I really like Masuka. Does he ever get a girlfriend? I'm behind in the series.
No, he doesn't. He has more real human connection than Dexter, but he lacks Dexter's social skills (yes, I do that Dexter developed those skills as a cover, but he does have them).
| 66 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:52:25pm |
re: #8 Max D. Reinhardt
"Neocons," the most useless word of our generation, is a favorite neologism among Ron Paul fanatics.
It is synonymous with anyone who supports any kind of government assistance, a 21st century monetary system (without the gold standard), abortion rights, evolution, the Iraq War, and/or Israel.
Possibly but LGF might be a little different. A lot of us came here after 9-11 trying to understand what's going on and the neocon label wasn't/isn't completely objectionable (at least to me).
| 67 |
Jaerik Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:52:57pm |
I thought concern trolling was generally when someone pretends to be The Enemy, then goes on their boards as a "concerned ally" and points out problems in their arguments. Does that apply to this guy? I may just not understand the term very well.
| 68 |
freetoken Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:53:07pm |
re: #57 Charles
Looking at the comments in that story it appears as if most commenters are wrapped up in petty squabbling. A couple of them though have hit upon Klinghoffer's vacuousness.
| 69 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:55:35pm |
the term neolib was invented right here, right now....we'll find a definition later as events develope
| 70 |
freetoken Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:56:29pm |
re: #69 albusteve
"neoliberal" has been kicked around for decades. It was applied to some of the Clinton efforts.
| 71 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:56:58pm |
re: #70 freetoken
"neoliberal" has been kicked around for decades. It was applied to some of the Clinton efforts.
aw shoot...buzz killer
| 72 |
Irenicum Sun, Aug 1, 2010 7:59:27pm |
re: #61 Gus 802
Exactly. There's been a ton of academic studies about its history and its evolution. I find it beyond bizarre that some folks are actually trying to say it never really existed. Are some folks just that radically subjectivist and a-historical in their thinking?
| 73 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:02:17pm |
re: #72 Irenicum
Exactly. There's been a ton of academic studies about its history and its evolution. I find it beyond bizarre that some folks are actually trying to say it never really existed. Are some folks just that radically subjectivist and a-historical in their thinking?
explain to me why it matters and I promise to listen, regardless of the subjectivisism involved....what are we talking about here and why does it have any value to people other than Dave?....am I missing out?
| 74 |
austin_blue Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:03:25pm |
re: #70 freetoken
"neoliberal" has been kicked around for decades. It was applied to some of the Clinton efforts.
Yup. True. I miss the Clinton years. Ah, the Nineties, when jobs were plentiful, and deficits were reduced! What happened then?
Oh, wait, a new Admin was elected. How has that worked for us? Two wars with no tax increase on those able to pay for it?
The proles get screwed. I imagine that most everyone on this Board is a prole. I certainly am. My credit card to Governement debt is fast approaching $10,000. Thank you, Republicans!
| 75 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:05:39pm |
re: #74 austin_blue
Yup. True. I miss the Clinton years. Ah, the Nineties, when jobs were plentiful, and deficits were reduced! What happened then?
Oh, wait, a new Admin was elected. How has that worked for us? Two wars with no tax increase on those able to pay for it?
The proles get screwed. I imagine that most everyone on this Board is a prole. I certainly am. My credit card to Governement debt is fast approaching $10,000. Thank you, Republicans!
GB oversaw 30 quarters of economic growth....no?...and what of BOs spending?....how much did the Two Wars cost?
| 76 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:06:29pm |
re: #74 austin_blue
Yup. True. I miss the Clinton years. Ah, the Nineties, when jobs were plentiful, and deficits were reduced! What happened then?
Oh, wait, a new Admin was elected. How has that worked for us? Two wars with no tax increase on those able to pay for it?
The proles get screwed. I imagine that most everyone on this Board is a prole. I certainly am. My credit card to Governement debt is fast approaching $10,000. Thank you, Republicans!
What do you mean by " I imagine that most everyone on this Board is a prole?"
| 77 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:08:29pm |
re: #74 austin_blue
Yup. True. I miss the Clinton years. Ah, the Nineties, when jobs were plentiful, and deficits were reduced! What happened then?
Oh, wait, a new Admin was elected. How has that worked for us? Two wars with no tax increase on those able to pay for it?
The proles get screwed. I imagine that most everyone on this Board is a prole. I certainly am. My credit card to Governement debt is fast approaching $10,000. Thank you, Republicans!
We were forced to go to war, and then we expanded that war to take out a hostile regime that had long been a thorn in our side. A "war tax" would have collapsed support for the war, given the American desire for a free lunch.
| 78 |
Dancing along the light of day Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:08:42pm |
I like this quote
"When I became a conservative, that is what I signed up for: a profound vision granting transcendent significance to public life and hope in private life. The goal wasn't to defeat Democratic officeholders or humiliate left-wing activists. It was, and still is, with those who remember, to save civilization."
| 79 |
freetoken Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:08:45pm |
re: #74 austin_blue
Oh, wait, a new Admin was elected. How has that worked for us? Two wars with no tax increase on those able to pay for it?
I agree it was irresponsible to not pay for two wars, but instead pretending we could just add the costs to the annual debt.
However, the boom of the 90's was only marginally dependent upon Clinton policies. The post cold war relaxation of the arms race, the flow of oil from the North Sea, the liberalization of China's economy, etc., etc. all worked together to make it a time when real growth world wide was possible.
| 80 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:10:17pm |
re: #75 albusteve
GB oversaw 30 quarters of economic growth...no?...and what of BOs spending?...how much did the Two Wars cost?
this is interesting
[Link: articles.moneycentral.msn.com...]
lot of money
| 81 |
austin_blue Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:10:41pm |
re: #75 albusteve
GB oversaw 30 quarters of economic growth...no?...and what of BOs spending?...how much did the Two Wars cost?
GB saw thirty two quarters of stagnation. The average prole saw his paycheck stall while the rich got fabulously richer. The two wars cost around $1 trillion in unpaid costs and will cost us another trillion to pay for the long term cost of the shattered warriors that the two wars have produced.
Obama inherited a pile of shit and has done his best to control the damage. Could he have done better? Sure. But considering the sinking ship he inherited, he's done an okay job.
| 82 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:11:29pm |
re: #77 Dark_Falcon
We were forced to go to war, and then we expanded that war to take out a hostile regime that had long been a thorn in our side. A "war tax" would have collapsed support for the war, given the American desire for a free lunch.
and how does BO justify his Astan adventure, when he dissed the Iraqi war from the start?
| 83 |
darthstar Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:11:50pm |
re: #76 Walter L. Newton
What do you mean by " I imagine that most everyone on this Board is a prole?"
Proletariate, I assume...- read Orwell's 1984
| 84 |
Four More Tears Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:12:29pm |
re: #83 darthstar
Proletariate, I assume...- read Orwell's 1984
Speak for yourself. I can turn my TV off. :P
| 85 |
Irenicum Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:12:34pm |
re: #73 albusteve
It matters in the sense that George Orwell would say that how we use language matters. Making the absurd claim that "neocon" never existed means we don't have to abide by the rules of plain knowledge or history. Are they distorted by bias? Of course, but we also "know" that many things actually happened and that certain words, and yes, even political words, do in fact have real meanings attached to them, even if those meanings change over time. To argue otherwise is, in my opinion, to give into a form of deep epistemological skepticism. And I'm sorry, but I happen to like the scientific revolution that real knowledge gave us. I don't want us to return to the dark ages intellectually.
| 86 |
darthstar Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:12:51pm |
re: #82 albusteve
and how does BO justify his Astan adventure, when he dissed the Iraqi war from the start?
Shit changes when you become Commander in Chief. You have a responsibility to finish some shit you wouldn't have started in the first place, and protect American lives. Gotta problem with that? I didn't think so.
| 87 |
Gus Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:13:09pm |
re: #72 Irenicum
Exactly. There's been a ton of academic studies about its history and its evolution. I find it beyond bizarre that some folks are actually trying to say it never really existed. Are some folks just that radically subjectivist and a-historical in their thinking?
I don't know. Perhaps it was as I said before how it evolved into a slur of sorts to describe conservatives within the context of the Project for the New American Century, the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars, militarism, etc., during the 2000s. Neocon became the derisive word to describe what many called the Bush "regime". There's a sociological component and it depends on who uses it much like how the liberal label is sometimes used with negative connotations. But that would be its use in the pedestrian sense as opposed to the academic sense where it in fact still exists.
| 88 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:13:23pm |
re: #83 darthstar
Proletariate, I assume...- read Orwell's 1984
Duh... do you think I did at some time? I was wondering how AB was using that term here.... I don't feel like any prole... so I was curious... but... thanks for channelling AB for me...
[Link: newton.acrossthebow.com...]
| 89 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:14:22pm |
re: #86 darthstar
Shit changes when you become Commander in Chief. You have a responsibility to finish some shit you wouldn't have started in the first place, and protect American lives. Gotta problem with that? I didn't think so.
yes, sure do...he's not protecting American lives, he's spending them....you have no problem with that?
| 90 |
darthstar Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:14:41pm |
re: #88 Walter L. Newton
I was simply responding to what you wrote. I don't know how well read you are or aren't, though you do seem to be pretty well versed in most matters religious.
| 91 |
Linden Arden Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:15:02pm |
re: #79 freetoken
The Telecommunications Act of 1996 spurred phenomenal growth in IP and circuit switching technology change.
Nostalgia = Cisco at $80/s and when Lucent and Nortel existed and were important.
| 92 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:15:47pm |
re: #78 Floral Giraffe
I like this quote
"When I became a conservative, that is what I signed up for: a profound vision granting transcendent significance to public life and hope in private life. The goal wasn't to defeat Democratic officeholders or humiliate left-wing activists. It was, and still is, with those who remember, to save civilization."
Sounds good to me. Now, he needs to live up to those words. I don't have much good to say about the Discovery Institute, but if they are willing to stand for political sanity, then I am very glad. By bring even a few people back to sanity, they might redeem themselves somewhat, despite their silly views on evolution.
| 93 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:16:32pm |
re: #90 darthstar
I was simply responding to what you wrote. I don't know how well read you are or aren't, though you do seem to be pretty well versed in most matters religious.
Testy tonight?
| 94 |
austin_blue Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:17:42pm |
re: #77 Dark_Falcon
We were forced to go to war, and then we expanded that war to take out a hostile regime that had long been a thorn in our side. A "war tax" would have collapsed support for the war, given the American desire for a free lunch.
Bullshit, DF. The war in Afghanistan was appropriate, but we didn't press the case to kill Al Queda. Then we went into Iraq, a country that was perfectly under control, to do...something...none of which turned out to be relevant and resulted in a fucking ridiculous economic disaster for our country.
The only thing that would have "collapsed" support for the war would have been a draft that would have sent you to Iraq or Afghanistan against your will. Somehow, the extra 3% that the richy rich paid under Clinton didn't result in squat except additional revenue for the Government to pay it's costs and reduce its deficits. This Republican meme has to called out as bullshit.
| 95 |
goddamnedfrank Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:17:55pm |
re: #75 albusteve
...how much did the Two Wars cost?
Over $1 Trillion so far, assuming you don't count prosthetics, physical therapy, rehabilitation, disability payments and burial costs.
re: #77 Dark_Falcon
We were forced to go to war, and then we expanded that war to take out a hostile regime that had long been a thorn in our side. A "war tax" would have collapsed support for the war, given the American desire for a free lunch.
Given the true costs in terms of minds, lives and limbs destroyed, I'd say that any thorn worth pulling is worth pulling honestly.
| 96 |
darthstar Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:18:20pm |
re: #89 albusteve
yes, sure do...he's not protecting American lives, he's spending them...you have no problem with that?
If you think he could get us out of Iraq without losing another US life, then you're a bigger fan of the president than I am...and I actually like the guy. It's okay to be an asshole, Steve...I can understand that. But willful ignorance on top just makes you look like a dumb one. Don't.
| 97 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:18:36pm |
Sorry for interrupting. I just found out my son made the Dean's List at his college.
.
.
.
Three years ago.
Does that make me a bad father?
| 99 |
Irenicum Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:19:13pm |
re: #87 Gus 802
It certainly has become much more a pejorative term nowadays for exactly the reasons you cite. But back in the day it was proudly owned by many folks. I'm not a fan of that view myself. But when I describe it, I would want to go with a self described definition rather than one given by an antagonist.
| 100 |
Vicious Michigan Union Thug Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:20:21pm |
re: #27 reine.de.tout
I'm no fan of Fox News.
For all that I disagree with Fox News, I do want to point out that Megyn Kelly is an attorney.
She doesn't really have a whole lot in common with the blonde in your video.
Like Orly Taitz?
| 101 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:20:53pm |
re: #95 goddamnedfrank
Given the true costs in terms of minds, lives and limbs destroyed, I'd say that any thorn worth pulling is worth pulling honestly.
And we pulled it honestly. Bush thought he had a valid pretext, so he made the move. No lying was involved.
| 102 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:23:33pm |
re: #96 darthstar
If you think he could get us out of Iraq without losing another US life, then you're a bigger fan of the president than I am...and I actually like the guy. It's okay to be an asshole, Steve...I can understand that. But willful ignorance on top just makes you look like a dumb one. Don't.
you didn't even attempt an answer...and if I'm an asshole for not wanting to toss away American lives, what does that make you?...I'm not talking about Iraq...if we have a mission in Astan I've not heard it, or if our mission is to kill Talis and hold ground we have failed and you know it...they are organic and they will never quit...it's a loser
| 103 |
brookly red Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:23:34pm |
re: #95 goddamnedfrank
Given the true costs in terms of minds, lives and limbs destroyed, I'd say that any thorn worth pulling is worth pulling honestly.
well I don't want to argue whether or not we should have gone into Iraq, too late we did. As far as unintended consequences go Iraq was the balance against Iran... that now being gone we have other issues.
| 104 |
brookly red Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:26:02pm |
re: #97 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Sorry for interrupting. I just found out my son made the Dean's List at his college.
.
.
.
Three years ago.Does that make me a bad father?
no you sent him to college did you not?
| 105 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:26:03pm |
A solid Sci-fi flick for those interested....
Pandorum
I think what kept it from being a truly great film was too much action. It has a really solid plot along the lines of Asimov or Arthur C. Clarke but they junked it up with too much action. Worth watching anyways.
| 106 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:26:48pm |
re: #103 brookly red
well I don't want to argue whether or not we should have gone into Iraq, too late we did. As far as unintended consequences go Iraq was the balance against Iran... that now being gone we have other issues.
Iraq is over...Afghanistan is raging and we have accomplished zero since last June...people are dying, our command failed, NATO is dwindling yet BO wanted this righteous war....he's a basketcase and so is our strategy
| 107 |
austin_blue Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:26:59pm |
re: #103 brookly red
well I don't want to argue whether or not we should have gone into Iraq, too late we did. As far as unintended consequences go Iraq was the balance against Iran... that now being gone we have other issues.
You are exactly right. Our incursion in Iraq did more to strengthen Iran's hand in the region than any other action any country could have taken. Hooray for us!
| 108 |
goddamnedfrank Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:27:30pm |
re: #101 Dark_Falcon
And we pulled it honestly. Bush thought he had a valid pretext, so he made the move. No lying was involved.
If the reason was actually valid, it wouldn't be a pretext, now would it?
| 110 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:28:05pm |
re: #107 austin_blue
You are exactly right. Our incursion in Iraq did more to strengthen Iran's hand in the region than any other action any country could have taken. Hooray for us!
that's totally subjective
| 111 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:28:23pm |
| 113 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:29:19pm |
| 114 |
Four More Tears Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:30:45pm |
| 115 |
Irenicum Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:31:45pm |
Well gang, I guess ignorance is bliss. I'm gonna go read and go to bed. See ya later gators.
| 116 |
austin_blue Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:32:01pm |
re: #110 albusteve
that's totally subjective
Why? Iraq was the wedge between the Kingdom and the Farsi-speaking non-arab Persian Shiites. That's why we knocked it off in '91 instead of taking Iraq. If you don't understand history, please refrain from commenting on the present.
| 117 |
brookly red Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:33:14pm |
| 118 |
A Man for all Seasons Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:34:44pm |
re: #106 albusteve
Iraq is over...Afghanistan is raging and we have accomplished zero since last June...people are dying, our command failed, NATO is dwindling yet BO wanted this righteous war...he's a basketcase and so is our strategy
I do believe the only time Charles Deleted a post of mine was when I got the news that the 3/5th Marines after Iraq was not going to Afghanistan instead was deployed to Japan...I used every happy curse word known to man and was running around the house screaming with Joy..
It's possible no poster in the world has said that many bad words in one post...I have never been happier for my Son in my life...Poor Charles..I used a lot of bad words screaming from the rooftop...And he had to delete that post..
The most wonderful delete in my life
| 119 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:34:51pm |
re: #116 austin_blue
Why? Iraq was the wedge between the Kingdom and the Farsi-speaking non-arab Persian Shiites. That's why we knocked it off in '91 instead of taking Iraq. If you don't understand history, please refrain from commenting on the present.
Iraq is a voting democracy at this point...if you don't think that weakens the mullahs to some degree then you need to reconsider, and the Kingdom is no threat to anybody materially...and don't patronize me with your petty insults
| 120 |
fire at night Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:35:32pm |
[sarc]
Even a broken clock is right twice in a Biblical day...
[/sarc]
| 121 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:35:57pm |
re: #108 goddamnedfrank
If the reason was actually valid, it wouldn't be a pretext, now would it?
Not truly. The stated reasons were legitimate, but they weren't the whole story. The administration wanted a hostile tyrant, who kept pushing at his sanctions box box, and had proven himself a threat, gone. That was the cardinal reason for war.
| 122 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:36:12pm |
| 123 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:37:17pm |
re: #116 austin_blue
I'm not the biggest advocate of the war in Iraq but could you imagime what would be going on today with Saddam still in power. Iran getting close to a nuke and Baghdad would be first on the target list over Tel Aviv. Saddam would be desperate to catch up. It would be a very high stakes arms race.
| 124 |
Political Atheist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:38:49pm |
re: #60 Dark_Falcon
Nice shot. I like the portrait layout.
| 126 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:42:07pm |
so why is BO getting the US deeper into the Astan gig, when Iraq was the wrong war that could not be won....we have seen on the ground success in Iraq...is his ego out of control?
| 127 |
Four More Tears Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:42:20pm |
Thank goodness we've stabilized Iraq.
Iraq casualties rise sharply amid post-election vacuum
July was Iraq's deadliest month for more than two years, figures show, amid fears insurgents are exploiting a political power vacuum.
Last month, 535 people were killed and 1,000 hurt in bombings or other attacks, Iraq said, although the US insisted the tolls were much lower.
Insurgent attacks have increased since inconclusive elections in March.
Sunni, Shia and Kurdish factions that won most seats are still bickering over who should be the next prime minister
Aw nuts...
| 128 |
Eclectic Infidel Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:42:29pm |
re: #105 Killgore Trout
It was an interesting idea but I found the movie too slow and it was never explained how Earth just disappeared into thin air. But still, a very interesting idea for a sci fi movie.
| 129 |
Political Atheist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:43:24pm |
re: #123 Killgore Trout
The sanctions would be over with by now I think. Maybe the southern no fly zone.
| 130 |
Four More Tears Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:43:39pm |
re: #126 albusteve
so why is BO getting the US deeper into the Astan gig, when Iraq was the wrong war that could not be won...we have seen on the ground success in Iraq...is his ego out of control?
No, but I think your imagination is.
| 131 |
A Man for all Seasons Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:43:41pm |
re: #125 Floral Giraffe
LOL!
*waves*
Hi Cutie! Blazing hot in Oklahoma...Thank the lawd for Room service..I ain't going outside till the morning..
How are you tonight?
| 132 |
brookly red Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:44:41pm |
re: #123 Killgore Trout
I'm not the biggest advocate of the war in Iraq but could you imagime what would be going on today with Saddam still in power. Iran getting close to a nuke and Baghdad would be first on the target list over Tel Aviv. Saddam would be desperate to catch up. It would be a very high stakes arms race.
we are training a good sized Iraqi army, 350,000 IIRC, care to guess who we are training them to fight?
| 133 |
Political Atheist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:44:47pm |
re: #125 Floral Giraffe
Hello from us both Floral. How are ya?
| 134 |
Dancing along the light of day Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:45:05pm |
re: #131 HoosierHoops
Super!
How was karaoke night?
| 135 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:45:19pm |
re: #130 JasonA
No, but I think your imagination is.
why don't you answer the question?
snark is no answer...if you can't, just say so or scroll by
| 136 |
Dancing along the light of day Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:45:33pm |
re: #133 Rightwingconspirator
Chillin' in the fog!
Loving it!
| 137 |
brookly red Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:46:30pm |
re: #126 albusteve
so why is BO getting the US deeper into the Astan gig, when Iraq was the wrong war that could not be won...we have seen on the ground success in Iraq...is his ego out of control?
heh, Chicago thuggery goes a bridge too far...
| 138 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:46:35pm |
re: #132 brookly red
we are training a good sized Iraqi army, 350,000 IIRC, care to guess who we are training them to fight?
they must bear down or risk losing their country to chaos again...I think they will be okay in the long run
| 139 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:48:43pm |
re: #137 brookly red
heh, Chicago thuggery goes a bridge too far...
I'm going to press the issue when it comes up...nothing pisses me off more than military deaths except those that don't count...it appears to me he has played politics with Astan....unacceptable
| 140 |
Gus Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:48:45pm |
It's called AFPAK. The plan all along was that after the draw down and withdrawal from Iraq that all military manpower and resources would re-focus at a heightened level operations in AFPAK. This isn't something that was concocted by the Obama administration. This is a strategy largely created in the Pentagon and long supported by Secretary Gates and the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
| 141 |
Political Atheist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:49:14pm |
re: #136 Floral Giraffe
We went all over the place today. Getting used to the new truck we bought last week. Sweet ride on several canyon roads and the famous mulholland drive. Weird thing saw lots of paramedics and sheriffs racing to the coast on Topanga and Malibu. Nothing on the news. Heard anything?
| 142 |
Four More Tears Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:49:16pm |
re: #135 albusteve
why don't you answer the question?
snark is no answer...if you can't, just say so or scroll by
Oookay.
so why is BO getting the US deeper into the Astan gig
Because leaving now would make the whole thing a complete waste.
| 143 |
brookly red Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:50:07pm |
re: #138 albusteve
they must bear down or risk losing their country to chaos again...I think they will be okay in the long run
true, and bearing down will require suppressing unwanted foreign (Iran) influence... lalalal.
| 144 |
Dancing along the light of day Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:51:33pm |
re: #141 Rightwingconspirator
No, but hot weekends can make for bad accidents on PCH.
| 145 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:51:37pm |
re: #132 brookly red
we are training a good sized Iraqi army, 350,000 IIRC, care to guess who we are training them to fight?
I'm more interested in betting on how long Iraq can be maintained as a stable democracy.
| 146 |
Four More Tears Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:52:05pm |
re: #145 SanFranciscoZionist
I'm more interested in betting on how long Iraq can be maintained as a stable democracy.
Are we starting a pool?
| 147 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:52:35pm |
re: #137 brookly red
heh, Chicago thuggery goes a bridge too far...
You really see stepping up in Afghanistan as 'Chicago thuggery'? I'm trying to figure out where you're coming from here.
| 148 |
A Man for all Seasons Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:52:37pm |
re: #134 Floral Giraffe
Super!
How was karaoke night?
A bunch of us from Indiana tore up the night and I didn't wake up till like 11am today...People think I sing well..But the secret is those dang nuns whacking you when you sang out of Key...Trust me..After that, you learn to stay in key..Nuns! dang them!
*wink*
| 149 |
Gus Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:53:27pm |
Earth to base!
See the guys to the left and right of President Bush in this image...
Image: Bush%2C_Mullen%2C_and_Cartwright_2007.jpg
Same guys are still at the helm.
| 150 |
Four More Tears Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:53:34pm |
Did someone bring up 1984?
Two Gulf states to ban some Blackberry functions
The United Arab Emirates is to block sending emails, accessing the internet, and delivering instant messages to other Blackberry handsets.
Saudi Arabia is to prevent the use of the Blackberry to Blackberry instant messaging service.
Both nations are unhappy that they are unable to monitor such communications via the handsets.
This is because the Blackberry handsets automatically send the encrypted data to computer servers outside of the two countries.
| 151 |
A Man for all Seasons Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:53:35pm |
re: #141 Rightwingconspirator
We went all over the place today. Getting used to the new truck we bought last week. Sweet ride on several canyon roads and the famous mulholland drive. Weird thing saw lots of paramedics and sheriffs racing to the coast on Topanga and Malibu. Nothing on the news. Heard anything?
Charlie Sheen again?
| 152 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:53:58pm |
re: #148 HoosierHoops
I've been to a bunch of Karaoke bars in my life. Based on your post?
There are not nearly enough nuns.
| 153 |
brookly red Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:54:10pm |
re: #145 SanFranciscoZionist
I'm more interested in betting on how long Iraq can be maintained as a stable democracy.
350,000 troops can bring a fair amount of stability ... especially if outside agitation is uhh, suppressed.
| 154 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:54:13pm |
| 155 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:54:26pm |
re: #142 JasonA
Because leaving now would make the whole thing a complete waste.
it's been a complete waste since the fight at Tora Bora...what don't you get about it?....do you honestly think we can stay there for another generation, to break the Tali chain?....do you not think the American people deserve answers for all the life and treasure we are sacrificing?...you bitched about Iraq but Astan is legit?....how so?
| 156 |
freetoken Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:54:43pm |
Sigh... looks like another of my hard drives went belly up. This one was bought about 3.5 years ago, in Japan, a Maxtor something or other. It's brother (another Maxtor, bought about a half year earlier) went belly up a few months ago.
I've never been able to keep HD's going past about 4 years.
| 157 |
Gus Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:56:30pm |
re: #147 SanFranciscoZionist
You really see stepping up in Afghanistan as 'Chicago thuggery'? I'm trying to figure out where you're coming from here.
I guess this means that Admiral Michael Mullen, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, and General David Petraeus are all part of the secret Chicago Thuggery cabal. I don't know. Maybe there's no sense in trying to figure it out at thus hour.
| 158 |
Political Atheist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:56:30pm |
re: #144 Floral Giraffe
Too true. Driving up PCH and being overtaken by 30 or so canyon racer motorcycles was interesting. We were surrounded. Oh and a small club of Ferraris and a Ducati bike running along together on Decker canyon. And I do mean running. Entertaining to say the least.
| 159 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:56:32pm |
re: #153 brookly red
350,000 troops can bring a fair amount of stability ... especially if outside agitation is uhh, suppressed.
Right. So basically, let me translate this, any asshole dictator who will offer to keep Iran under the gun for us will get to be the new Saddam, and we'll support him until his usefulness runs out, or he gets too unstable for us to truck with?
God, I love Middle Eastern politics. If you go fast enough, you throw up?
| 160 |
Dancing along the light of day Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:57:12pm |
re: #145 SanFranciscoZionist
I'm more interested in betting on how long Iraq can be maintained as a stable democracy.
Or IF they can get to a stable democracy, at all...
| 161 |
Four More Tears Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:57:19pm |
re: #155 albusteve
I've bitched about starting the Iraq War. I never said we should've pulled out leaving the country unstable. Same goes for Afghanistan.
| 162 |
brookly red Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:57:46pm |
re: #159 SanFranciscoZionist
Right. So basically, let me translate this, any asshole dictator who will offer to keep Iran under the gun for us will get to be the new Saddam, and we'll support him until his usefulness runs out, or he gets too unstable for us to truck with?
God, I love Middle Eastern politics. If you go fast enough, you throw up?
you really have a bad attitude sometimes :)
| 163 |
Political Atheist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:58:07pm |
re: #151 HoosierHoops
No celebrity sightings on our part. Hey, maybe Charlie Sheen had a set to with Mel Gibson, and Sean Penn was the referee.
| 164 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:58:45pm |
re: #161 JasonA
I've bitched about starting the Iraq War. I never said we should've pulled out leaving the country unstable. Same goes for Afghanistan.
The problem with Afghanistan is that taking up nation-building with Afghanistan is a little like taking up hiking with K2.
| 165 |
Dancing along the light of day Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:58:50pm |
re: #163 Rightwingconspirator
Pssst.
You drove past Pamela Anderson & didn't notice it!
LOL!
| 166 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:58:54pm |
re: #159 SanFranciscoZionist
Right. So basically, let me translate this, any asshole dictator who will offer to keep Iran under the gun for us will get to be the new Saddam, and we'll support him until his usefulness runs out, or he gets too unstable for us to truck with?
God, I love Middle Eastern politics. If you go fast enough, you throw up?
who are you talking about?...Iraq is a young democracy
| 167 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:58:56pm |
| 168 |
freetoken Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:59:23pm |
The Joy of Pages: My latest Louisiana creationism entry comes up on a Google search of "creationism louisiana" near the top of the front page, on a search the reports "About 1,190,000 results".
Not bad.
My only plea to the lizards is that they make their Pages more than just links to news stories, but that they add something, your thoughts, to the issue.
| 169 |
Gus Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:59:31pm |
re: #164 SanFranciscoZionist
The problem with Afghanistan is that taking up nation-building with Afghanistan is a little like taking up hiking with K2.
Or herding cats.
| 170 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:59:41pm |
| 171 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 8:59:59pm |
re: #161 JasonA
I've bitched about starting the Iraq War. I never said we should've pulled out leaving the country unstable. Same goes for Afghanistan.
what is our mission in Astan, in your opinion?
| 172 |
brookly red Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:01:45pm |
re: #167 SanFranciscoZionist
How wrong am I, though?
look at the map, Iraq on one side Afghanistan on the other... Iran was always the target. The other wars are just for staging ground. Sad but true.
| 173 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:02:29pm |
re: #172 brookly red
look at the map, Iraq on one side Afghanistan on the other... Iran was always the target. The other wars are just for staging ground. Sad but true.
and Pakistan has the nukes...sweet
| 174 |
A Man for all Seasons Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:02:40pm |
re: #156 freetoken
Sigh... looks like another of my hard drives went belly up. This one was bought about 3.5 years ago, in Japan, a Maxtor something or other. It's brother (another Maxtor, bought about a half year earlier) went belly up a few months ago.
I've never been able to keep HD's going past about 4 years.
We bought the IBM hard drive Division about 5 years ago...Now called HGST Division...Enterprise drives..Pricey but the most excellent made today...
Don't go cheap Freetoken..You get what you pay for
good luck
| 175 |
theheat Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:02:43pm |
re: #145 SanFranciscoZionist
I share those reservations. IIRC, Hamas was also "democratically" elected. Part of the problem is the turd was never taken out of the soup.
| 176 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:02:46pm |
re: #166 albusteve
who are you talking about?...Iraq is a young democracy
What I'm talking about is whether they're going to make it to middle-aged democracy.
| 177 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:03:20pm |
re: #172 brookly red
look at the map, Iraq on one side Afghanistan on the other... Iran was always the target. The other wars are just for staging ground. Sad but true.
So, how wrong am I then?
| 178 |
brookly red Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:03:32pm |
| 179 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:03:54pm |
re: #176 SanFranciscoZionist
What I'm talking about is whether they're going to make it to middle-aged democracy.
they will....no pain, no gain
| 180 |
brookly red Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:04:20pm |
| 181 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:05:17pm |
re: #178 brookly red
as does India... oh and we have a few too.
Of course he has a knife, he always has a knife, we all have knives! It's 1183 and we're barbarians! How clear we make it. Oh, my piglets, we are the origins of war: not history's forces, nor the times, nor justice, nor the lack of it, nor causes, nor religions, nor ideas, nor kinds of government, nor any other thing. We are the killers. We breed wars. We carry it like syphilis inside.
| 182 |
freetoken Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:05:21pm |
re: #174 HoosierHoops
We bought the IBM hard drive Division about 5 years ago...Now called HGST Division...
Ah, yes, Hitachi, the makers of the micro-drive that failed me...
| 183 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:06:01pm |
re: #180 brookly red
where did I say you were wrong?
You didn't. I'm just not looking forward to watching the next act play out.
| 184 |
Four More Tears Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:06:11pm |
re: #171 albusteve
what is our mission in Astan, in your opinion?
My opinion? Turn it into a place where terrorists aren't free to have a home. That's it in a nutshell for me. Isn't that the whole reason we went there? Do what we need to do so their leaders can actually govern.
| 185 |
A Man for all Seasons Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:06:48pm |
re: #182 freetoken
Ah, yes, Hitachi, the makers of the micro-drive that failed me...
Uh oh..Better call my boss
| 186 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:06:55pm |
what is our mission in Astan, anybody?....JasonA can't handle it...stand up and defend BO
| 187 |
brookly red Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:07:02pm |
re: #183 SanFranciscoZionist
You didn't. I'm just not looking forward to watching the next act play out.
actually I don't think you are... nobody is.
| 188 |
Four More Tears Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:08:02pm |
re: #186 albusteve
what is our mission in Astan, anybody?...JasonA can't handle it...stand up and defend BO
That's a really shitty way to argue your point, you know. Especially after I answered...
| 189 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:08:10pm |
re: #184 JasonA
My opinion? Turn it into a place where terrorists aren't free to have a home. That's it in a nutshell for me. Isn't that the whole reason we went there? Do what we need to do so their leaders can actually govern.
the Taliban were never a threat to the US....what terrorists are you talking about?
| 190 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:08:51pm |
re: #188 JasonA
That's a really shitty way to argue your point, you know. Especially after I answered...
I'm not arguing a point, I'm waiting for yours
| 191 |
Gus Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:10:04pm |
re: #189 albusteve
the Taliban were never a threat to the US...what terrorists are you talking about?
The Taliban were harboring Al-Qaeda. Remember? If the Taliban regain control that means the return of Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan.
| 192 |
Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:10:43pm |
re: #181 SanFranciscoZionist
Of course he has a knife, he always has a knife, we all have knives! It's 1183 and we're barbarians! How clear we make it. Oh, my piglets, we are the origins of war: not history's forces, nor the times, nor justice, nor the lack of it, nor causes, nor religions, nor ideas, nor kinds of government, nor any other thing. We are the killers. We breed wars. We carry it like syphilis inside.
Mega-upding for "The Lion In Winter" ref.
| 193 |
Four More Tears Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:10:51pm |
re: #191 Gus 802
The Taliban were harboring Al-Qaeda. Remember? If the Taliban regain control that means the return of Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan.
Stop. He's too fucking stupid to argue with right now. I'm done.
| 194 |
Gus Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:11:15pm |
| 195 |
brookly red Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:12:14pm |
re: #193 JasonA
Stop. He's too fucking stupid to argue with right now. I'm done.
not bad for a stupid guy huh?
| 196 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:13:05pm |
re: #191 Gus 802
The Taliban were harboring Al-Qaeda. Remember? If the Taliban regain control that means the return of Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan.
that was then, years ago...but if our mission is to deny AQ a refuge via the Talis, how long could that take?...have you ever heard of the Arab blood feud?...it lasts forever and officially we are pulling out next year...if not, how come BO does not address the people and say so?...why?
| 197 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:13:48pm |
re: #193 JasonA
Stop. He's too fucking stupid to argue with right now. I'm done.
and you have contributed nothing....butt out poodle
| 198 |
brookly red Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:15:27pm |
good night folks, sleep well knowing really well trained people are watching over you.
| 199 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:17:12pm |
re: #196 albusteve
that was then, years ago...but if our mission is to deny AQ a refuge via the Talis, how long could that take?...have you ever heard of the Arab blood feud?...it lasts forever and officially we are pulling out next year...if not, how come BO does not address the people and say so?...why?
Well, Afghans aren't Arabs, so perhaps that will work to our advantage.
| 200 |
albusteve Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:17:47pm |
droolers will support BO right down to life and death...amazing
I'm out like Ernie Shavers...
have fun trashing me
| 201 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:22:37pm |
re: #200 albusteve
droolers will support BO right down to life and death...amazing
I'm out like Ernie Shavers...
have fun trashing me
I'd rather not, but I am curious about this discussion we're having. I can recall a time when questioning what our mission in AfPak was or should be would get you filleted by many of the more Republican-inclined lizards.
I recall that George W. Bush was president at the time.
Are people changing their views, or has the tenor of the blog changed in such a way that different voices are emerging, or has the party of the presently serving CinC made a great difference?
I am genuinely curious about what people think.
| 202 |
Gus Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:25:28pm |
Concern trolling about withdrawing from AFPAK while rationalizing that we must withdraw because of alleged failures by the Obama administration.
It's the new pink.
| 203 |
freetoken Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:26:17pm |
re: #201 SanFranciscoZionist
At the time of the invasion (of Afghanistan) I thought it was the right thing to do, and I don't regret that.
Yet I was on here even a few years ago whining about how the Bush administration would never use the phrase "nation building", even though that is clearly what we are doing (in both Afghanistan and Iraq.) GWB hated that phrase, but it is the truth - we are trying to build modern nations in both locations.
| 204 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:33:11pm |
re: #203 freetoken
At the time of the invasion (of Afghanistan) I thought it was the right thing to do, and I don't regret that.
Yet I was on here even a few years ago whining about how the Bush administration would never use the phrase "nation building", even though that is clearly what we are doing (in both Afghanistan and Iraq.) GWB hated that phrase, but it is the truth - we are trying to build modern nations in both locations.
I think rousting out AQ and their local supporters was well worth the effort. Iraq I was opposed to.
I have a very gloomy outlook on the possibility of either country becoming a stable democracy any time in the near future. The most I hope for is that they won't collapse into anything as bad as what they started with.
It's entirely possible to debate me on all of these points.
But I am baffled by the turn these conversations have taken of late. Seriously, Brookly. 'Chicago thuggery'? What does that MEAN in this situation?
| 205 |
Gus Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:36:17pm |
re: #204 SanFranciscoZionist
I think rousting out AQ and their local supporters was well worth the effort. Iraq I was opposed to.
I have a very gloomy outlook on the possibility of either country becoming a stable democracy any time in the near future. The most I hope for is that they won't collapse into anything as bad as what they started with.
It's entirely possible to debate me on all of these points.
But I am baffled by the turn these conversations have taken of late. Seriously, Brookly. 'Chicago thuggery'? What does that MEAN in this situation?
Don't you know? Apparently, supporting the current strategy in AFPAK means that you're an "Obot" or a "drooler." Clearly we might be victims of "Chicago thuggery."
| 206 |
theheat Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:37:20pm |
re: #201 SanFranciscoZionist
I don't see Afghanistan as being able to hold its shit together without us, quite honestly. It's corrupt, poor, and used to being ruled by religious zealots. The biggest problem I see, is the same as Iraq: it's a fucked-up theocracy with democratic elections i.e. the same turds are all floating in the soup. Not only that, but surrounding countries harbor religious zealot terrorists, just ready and waiting to move in and take over. They aren't going away just because we're there.
Basically, we've set the stage for the longest babysitting term in history, at the cost of American lives and trillions of dollars. If we leave, the region implodes. If it implodes, what was the point in the first place?
Quite simply, we could ask the Russians how that whole Afghanistan thing turned out, and regain some perspective. Personally, I wish we'd accepted their help when they offered it. And they did. And we didn't.
| 207 |
freetoken Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:47:46pm |
re: #206 theheat
I
Basically, we've set the stage for the longest babysitting term in history, ...
Well, the British tried in both of those places, for many years, long before we got involved. We could ask them too how it turned out.
| 208 |
theheat Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:50:18pm |
re: #207 freetoken
Something about the definition of insanity: repeating the same mistakes over and over, and expecting a different result.
| 209 |
austin_blue Sun, Aug 1, 2010 9:54:56pm |
re: #119 albusteve
Iraq is a voting democracy at this point...if you don't think that weakens the mullahs to some degree then you need to reconsider, and the Kingdom is no threat to anybody materially...and don't patronize me with your petty insults
Iraq is a collection of tribes and sects that hate each other. The Kingdom has *huge* stroke because of the oil it provides to the great sucking maw of the West. Which is why we grit our teeth and accept the building of mosques in the West that push Wahabiist/Salafist fundamentalism. And that wasn't patronizing. That was a wake up call.
| 210 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Aug 2, 2010 12:22:23am |
re: #205 Gus 802
Don't you know? Apparently, supporting the current strategy in AFPAK means that you're an "Obot" or a "drooler." Clearly we might be victims of "Chicago thuggery."
Politics is grand, isn't it? :D
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