Mayor Bloomberg's Speech on Park51

Mayor Bloomberg’s Speech on Park51

US NewsAugust 2010 • Views: 4,359

At New York’s Governors Island this morning, Mayor Michael Bloomberg gave an impassioned speech about Park51, the planned Muslim community center two blocks from Ground Zero, and its importance as a test of religious freedom and the separation of church and state. Bloomberg even apparently choked up at one point; Justin Elliott has the full text at Salon: Mayor Bloomberg delivers stirring affirmation of religious freedom.

“Let us not forget that Muslims were among those murdered on 9/11, and that our Muslim neighbors grieved with us as New Yorkers and as Americans. We would betray our values and play into our enemies’ hands if we were to treat Muslims differently than anyone else. In fact, to cave to popular sentiment would be to hand a victory to the terrorists, and we should not stand for that.

“For that reason, I believe that this is an important test of the separation of church and state as we may see in our lifetimes, as important a test. And it is critically important that we get it right.

“On Sept. 11, 2001, thousands of first responders heroically rushed to the scene and saved tens of thousands of lives. More than 400 of those first responders did not make it out alive. In rushing into those burning buildings, not one of them asked, ‘What God do you pray to?’ (Bloomberg’s voice cracks here a little as he gets choked up.) ‘What beliefs do you hold?’”

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139 comments

theheat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:26:10pm

Anything so rational and compassionate shall be punished appropriately.

Kragar Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:26:31pm

How dare a poltician stand up for local government control of their business and following the Constitution!!!

Now wonder the Wingnuts hate him.

Wait just a sec...

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:27:25pm

Amen.

That was an act of courage and decency on the part of Mayor Bloomberg.

The GOP hate machine will start calling him a dhimmi and a socialist and a communist very shortly.

I am proud he had the courage to remind people about what America actually stands for and about what actually makes us a great nation.

SpaceJesus Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:27:45pm

love how conservatives like to boast about how you should be able to do whatever you damn well please on your land. oh, but only if youre christian

darthstar Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:29:21pm

re: #2 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

How dare a poltician stand up for local government control of their business and following the Constitution!!!

Now wonder the Wingnuts hate him.

Wait just a sec...

The wing-nuts aren't the only ones who don't want the mosque...who would have thought they'd be on the same side of this issue as Osama bin Laden?

[Feisal Abdul Rauf] represents what Bin Laden fears most: a Muslim who believes that it is possible to remain true to the values of Islam and, at the same time, to be a loyal citizen of a Western, non-Muslim country. Bin Laden wants a clash of civilizations; the opponents of the mosque project are giving him what he wants.

Obdicut Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:29:44pm

He's going to be my mayor soon.

I am now much happier about this than I was awhile ago.

nines09 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:30:02pm

Look Rush! A Democrat out to ruin America! The space between church and state is called FREEDOM. Amen.

SpaceJesus Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:30:30pm

re: #5 darthstar

spot on

Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:31:28pm

Mayor Bloomberg obviously hates America.

tnguitarist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:35:08pm

Ah, I love the fresh smell of reason in the afternoon.

Kragar Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:37:03pm

Just because I got stuck listening to him this morning and he was talking about Bloomberg.

Could someone tell Rush that "Strategerist" is not a fucking word? The word is strategist, you bloviating windbag.

Four More Tears Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:38:07pm

re: #11 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Just because I got stuck listening to him this morning and he was talking about Bloomberg.

Could someone tell Rush that "Strategerist" is not a fucking word? The word is strategist, you bloviating windbag.

pls refudiate Kragar kthxbai

ShaunP Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:38:28pm

re: #11 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

bloviating

Well played sir...

SpaceJesus Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:38:55pm

oh hi typical fox news watcher, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel

"I say we let em build it. Wait till it opens and fills up with thousands of Muslims. Weld the doors shut, then crash a plane into it killing 3000 Muslims. There, now we're even."

upchuck
Tuesday, August 03, 2010 at 1:06 PM

webevintage Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:39:06pm

re: #11 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Just because I got stuck listening to him this morning and he was talking about Bloomberg.

Could someone tell Rush that "Strategerist" is not a fucking word? The word is strategist, you bloviating windbag.

Has Rush left New York yet?
I bet Bloomberg will be glad when he finally hauls his fat ass to FL for good.

Four More Tears Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:40:20pm

re: #15 webevintage

Has Rush left New York yet?
I bet Bloomberg will be glad when he finally hauls his fat ass to FL for good.

I thought he was in FL for good?

Four More Tears Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:41:15pm

re: #14 SpaceJesus

oh hi typical fox news watcher, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel

"I say we let em build it. Wait till it opens and fills up with thousands of Muslims. Weld the doors shut, then crash a plane into it killing 3000 Muslims. There, now we're even."

upchuck
Tuesday, August 03, 2010 at 1:06 PM

wow
That's not how this works, crazyfoxnewscommentor...

ends with space Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:41:46pm

Can I ask a question?

A wingnut friend of mine (actually, not in every way a wingnut, but a blind Arab/Muslim hater) claims that:

1) the mosque will be on the top floor (or maybe the top two floors) of the community center, and that

2) this is deliberate, because the Qur'an or sharia or a hadith or something declares that a mosque must be the highest place of worship in any "conquered" city.

I know there's no point in trying to reach this guy by exploding his myths, but I'm curious for my own sake: Is either of these points even remotely true? #1 is asserted (without substantiation) on a number of right-wing blogs but I can't find even the vaguest reference to #2 anywhere. So where did he get this?

(For the record: I myself feel that the people fighting the project are playing into the hands of the terrorists, because asserting that our vaunted freedom of religion doesn't apply to Muslims is just one more proof to the world that we're a bunch of hypocrites with no right to lecture others about morality.)

CuriousLurker Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:43:36pm

Good on Mr. Bloomberg and the three Jewish leaders who stood with him during the speech.re: #14 SpaceJesus

oh hi typical fox news watcher, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel

"I say we let em build it. Wait till it opens and fills up with thousands of Muslims. Weld the doors shut, then crash a plane into it killing 3000 Muslims. There, now we're ~~even~~ scum-sucking terrorist dirtbags just like the 9/11 hijackers."

upchuck
Tuesday, August 03, 2010 at 1:06 PM

Fixed that for him/her.

Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:45:09pm

"The attack was an act of war, and our first responders defended not only our city, but our country and our constitution. We do not honor their lives by denying the very constitutional rights they died protecting. We honor their lives by defending those rights and the freedoms that the terrorists attacked.

This can be applied to a number of situations, including our military campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq. Just as I've been told that I can't really be for America if I oppose our involvement in those two countries, we are now hearing over and over ad nauseum, that the building of this community center is an affront to America.

So I am curious. Do those who hold these views really not understand that it is rational to support the mosque based on principles enumerated in the Constitution, or do they understand that and simply don't care?

soap_man Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:45:16pm

I really like Bloomberg. I hope he runs for president some day. He'll have my vote.

William Barnett-Lewis Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:45:39pm

I'm not particularly fond of Bloomberg on a number of levels but I'm thankful he had the courage & decency to make this speech.

SpaceJesus Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:46:19pm

re: #18 ends with space

probably found it in mein kampf or pamella geller's book

Four More Tears Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:47:05pm

re: #18 ends with space

Er, I don't think it just applies to "conquered" cities. See Kingdom Centre, a really tall skyscraper that has a mosque on top.

Not that I really give a crap. Still a pretty building.

sffilk Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:47:27pm

It appears to be a good speech. I'm thinking he is correct 100%. However, there are too many people who equate what happened down there with all Muslims, and will never be satisfied about it. I'm thinking it's a mindset of "freedom of religion for everyone . . . except Muslims!"

I'm not saying I agree with them; I merely point this out because of the stuff I've been hearing from those said, "Never put a mosque down there!"

Cineaste Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:49:16pm

This speech is beautiful.

Thank goodness Mayor Bloomberg is our Mayor today and not Mayor Giuliani.

davesax Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:49:39pm

Nice to hear Bloomie, who overturned term limits by paying off city council members, only to win the election by the skin of his teeth, talk about the U.S. Constitution.

NYPD cops, who are under more pressure than ever to stop and frisk minorities because of Bloomberg's insane policies, are cracking up. A

Perhaps Bloomberg's office will respond to the recent NYPD tapes scandal that broke in the Village Voice, documenting these draconian practices, one of these days.

But, hey, as long as he chokes up about Park51, he's cool!

Spider Mensch Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:50:01pm

re: #18 ends with space

Can I ask a question?

A wingnut friend of mine (actually, not in every way a wingnut, but a blind Arab/Muslim hater) claims that:

1) the mosque will be on the top floor (or maybe the top two floors) of the community center, and that

2) this is deliberate, because the Qur'an or sharia or a hadith or something declares that a mosque must be the highest place of worship in any "conquered" city.

I know there's no point in trying to reach this guy by exploding his myths, but I'm curious for my own sake: Is either of these points even remotely true? #1 is asserted (without substantiation) on a number of right-wing blogs but I can't find even the vaguest reference to #2 anywhere. So where did he get this?

(For the record: I myself feel that the people fighting the project are playing into the hands of the terrorists, because asserting that our vaunted freedom of religion doesn't apply to Muslims is just one more proof to the world that we're a bunch of hypocrites with no right to lecture others about morality.)

not sure how it relates to what you friend claims, but the reason may lie in the same as a church steeple, the minaret of a mosque is tall for the call to prayers to be heard, same as church bells in a steeple. maybe being built on high ground in some areas so the call to prayer may be heard through out an area or town...usually the most logical answer...is the correct one

McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:50:10pm

Jeeze he did good with this one... actually makes me feel even more certain in my support of Park51.

Lidane Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:50:22pm

re: #22 wlewisiii

I'm not particularly fond of Bloomberg on a number of levels but I'm thankful he had the courage & decency to make this speech.

Yeah, this. Good on him for doing and saying the right thing.

Four More Tears Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:50:34pm

re: #26 Cineaste

This speech is beautiful.

Thank goodness Mayor Bloomberg is our Mayor today and not Mayor Giuliani.

I'm surprised he's been so quiet over this. He just said something about it recently, but he should've been the spokesperson for the anti-ground zero mosque brigade, no?

What, me worry? Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:54:03pm

re: #26 Cineaste

This speech is beautiful.

Thank goodness Mayor Bloomberg is our Mayor today and not Mayor Giuliani.

It was as lovely speech.

“Our doors are open to everyone. Everyone with a dream and a willingness to work hard and play by the rules. New York City was built by immigrants, and it's sustained by immigrants -- by people from more than 100 different countries speaking more than 200 different languages and professing every faith. And whether your parents were born here or you came here yesterday, you are a New Yorker."

Bloomberg should make a trip to southern Arizona.

CuriousLurker Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:54:32pm

re: #18 ends with space

Can I ask a question?

A wingnut friend of mine (actually, not in every way a wingnut, but a blind Arab/Muslim hater) claims that:

1) the mosque will be on the top floor (or maybe the top two floors) of the community center, and that

2) this is deliberate, because the Qur'an or sharia or a hadith or something declares that a mosque must be the highest place of worship in any "conquered" city.

In nearly 20 years of being Muslim this is the first I've ever heard of such a thing. I've been hearing a lot of "firsts" lately...

I know there's no point in trying to reach this guy by exploding his myths, but I'm curious for my own sake: Is either of these points even remotely true? #1 is asserted (without substantiation) on a number of right-wing blogs but I can't find even the vaguest reference to #2 anywhere. So where did he get this?

Probably the same place the wingnut haters get the rest of their "facts"—an apparently bottomless well of ignorance.

FWIW, the only thing even remotely close to that—and this is a HUGE stretch as it doesn't apply to mosques—is that the Qur'an should be handled with respect, kept off the ground, and placed physically higher than other books (I keep mine on the top shelf of my bookcase). Hope that helps a little.

Kragar Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:54:58pm

Steele ‘punked’ by blogger posing as GOP donor

It might be a good idea for Republican National Committee chairman Michael Steele to start screening his calls.

Last week, the embattled GOP chairman took a call at his home from someone he thought was a prospective GOP donor and, during the conversation, dismissed the idea that former Sen. Norm Coleman might be after his job. "Norm is an old friend. Norm is not going to challenge me for RNC chairman," Steele said. "If he does, I'll put my record up against anyone who comes after me."

The only thing is: Steele wasn't talking to a donor. He was talking to conservative blogger Evan Gahr, who was pretending to be a donor and who later published the conversation on his site. (He calls himself Washington Gadfly.)

Steele has become nothing more than a running gag to the RNC.

CuriousLurker Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:55:57pm

re: #31 JasonA

I'm surprised he's been so quiet over this. He just said something about it recently, but he should've been the spokesperson for the anti-ground zero mosque brigade, no?

He hasn't. Didn't you see Max's page?

Four More Tears Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:57:30pm

re: #35 CuriousLurker

He hasn't. Didn't you see Max's page?

Yeah, that one I saw. I guess I've just been expecting to see him on FoxNews 24/7 or something.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:57:48pm

re: #18 ends with space

Can I ask a question?

A wingnut friend of mine (actually, not in every way a wingnut, but a blind Arab/Muslim hater) claims that:

1) the mosque will be on the top floor (or maybe the top two floors) of the community center, and that

2) this is deliberate, because the Qur'an or sharia or a hadith or something declares that a mosque must be the highest place of worship in any "conquered" city.

I know there's no point in trying to reach this guy by exploding his myths, but I'm curious for my own sake: Is either of these points even remotely true? #1 is asserted (without substantiation) on a number of right-wing blogs but I can't find even the vaguest reference to #2 anywhere. So where did he get this?

(For the record: I myself feel that the people fighting the project are playing into the hands of the terrorists, because asserting that our vaunted freedom of religion doesn't apply to Muslims is just one more proof to the world that we're a bunch of hypocrites with no right to lecture others about morality.)

I have no information on where the mosque part of the community center will be placed.

However, it is Muslim law that in Muslim lands that the no other house of worship shall be higher than a mosque.

This is one of the reasons that the Temple Mount, in Jerusalem, had two mosques placed on top of it. In general, building a mosque on someone else's holiest site is a thumb in the eye - and was intended as such. Just ask the Greeks about Hagia Sophia.

One of the biggest issues with the American wingnuts is that they are so crazy, hateful and delusional, that they make any discussion about real problems with Islam, which are not pleasant, automatically suspect.

Just as it is utterly wrong, foolish and immoral to lump the innocent with the guilty or pretend that Islam is monolithic or to simply be an ignorant and prejudiced fool, it is utterly foolish to pretend that the Islam of the Middle East (which many American Muslims did their best to get away from) is somehow cuddly.

What, me worry? Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:59:17pm

re: #34 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Steele ‘punked’ by blogger posing as GOP donor

Steele has become nothing more than a running gag to the RNC.

Might I suggest there's something extra sleazy about posing as a GOP donor while being the host of a blog. And why is Steele making personal statements to "donors" anyway at his HOUSE? Don't they have volunteers for that? The whole thing sounds weird.

Gus Tue, Aug 3, 2010 12:59:23pm

Video of speech:

[Link: www.nyc.gov...]

CuriousLurker Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:00:15pm

re: #36 JasonA

Yeah, that one I saw. I guess I've just been expecting to see him on FoxNews 24/7 or something.

Give him a little time. *gag* I can't stand that man.

Kragar Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:02:06pm

re: #38 marjoriemoon

Might I suggest there's something extra sleazy about posing as a GOP donor while being the host of a blog. And why is Steele making personal statements to "donors" anyway at his HOUSE? Don't they have volunteers for that? The whole thing sounds weird.

Yes, the caller was a sleazeball, but he somehow still got thru to Steele and Steele fell for it. The man is an embarassment.

Gus Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:02:08pm

re: #39 Gus 802

Video of speech:

[Link: www.nyc.gov...]

Lower bandwidth:

[Link: www.nyc.gov...]

justaminute Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:02:30pm

Maybe a cultural center should be built on ground-zero dedicated to wiping out ignorance of the Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths.

SpaceJesus Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:03:49pm

re: #43 justaminute

a library?

Kragar Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:04:37pm

re: #43 justaminute

Maybe a cultural center should be built on ground-zero dedicated to wiping out ignorance of the Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths.

Because the Christians will call for bloody murder if you equate them with those godless heathens.

///

freetoken Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:04:39pm

re: #38 marjoriemoon

If you look a the blog of the person who did this to Steele, he (Gahr) has had articles in the WT and the American Spectator, and so forth. His few blog entries are of topics not surprising given that.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:05:23pm

re: #43 justaminute

Maybe a cultural center should be built on ground-zero dedicated to wiping out ignorance of the Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths.

The best way to do that is to enforce a secular government, which by law, shall enforce no preferences based on faith amongst the citizenry - and to constantly remind the citizenry that this respect, rationalism and tolerance is a cornerstone of the republic.

Such a shrine already exists. It is the National Archives. We keep the Constitution there.

justaminute Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:05:26pm

re: #44 SpaceJesus

a library?

Maybe but there is so much ignorance out there and we don't seem to be gaining ground on the ignorant.

jaunte Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:06:46pm

re: #37 LudwigVanQuixote

There's an interesting article here on the changes that are happening lately in mosque architecture:

As Muslims get wealthier, more confident and more geographically diffuse — almost a third of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims live in non-Muslim-majority states — their mosques are no longer just monuments to the rulers whose names they bear. Increasingly, they symbolize the struggle to marry tradition with modernity and to set down roots in the West. The most daring buildings are dreamt up by second- and third-generation Muslim immigrants, who have the confidence and cash to build stone-and-glass symbols of Islam's growing strength in places like Europe. Simply importing traditional mosque architecture "doesn't express loyalty to your current surroundings," says Zulfiqar Husain, honorary secretary of an innovative new eco-mosque in Manchester, England. "It almost expresses that you want to be separate from the society you live in."
[Link: www.islamdaily.net...]

SpaceJesus Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:07:40pm

re: #48 justaminute

Maybe but there is so much ignorance out there and we don't seem to be gaining ground on the ignorant.

a prerequisite for its effective use is that ignorant people are able to read. judging from the time ive spent at free republic and foxnews today, this may be too high of a bar to set.

What, me worry? Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:07:41pm

re: #46 freetoken

If you look a the blog of the person who did this to Steele, he (Gahr) has had articles in the WT and the American Spectator, and so forth. His few blog entries are of topics not surprising given that.

I'm not familiar, but the story sounds so weird. I guess it could be true. Anyway, what's wrong with the statement he made about Norm Coleman?

"Norm is an old friend. Norm is not going to challenge me for RNC chairman," Steele said. "If he does, I'll put my record up against anyone who comes after me."

I'm no fan of Mike Steele, but if this is the worse he said, who cares?

What, me worry? Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:08:16pm

re: #44 SpaceJesus

a library?

What is that?

goddamnedfrank Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:08:36pm

re: #43 justaminute

Maybe a cultural center should be built on ground-zero dedicated to wiping out ignorance of the Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths.

They decided to go the other way instead.

SpaceJesus Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:09:05pm

re: #52 marjoriemoon

What is that?

a place where liberals keep their evil communist magic

freetoken Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:09:09pm

re: #51 marjoriemoon

The blogger in question also seems highly concerned about Kagan's parents, why rappers supported Obama in the election, and so forth.

Don't look for rationality and decency among the wingnuts.

What, me worry? Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:09:44pm

re: #54 SpaceJesus

a place where liberals keep their evil communist magic

Oohh!! LOLLLL!

CuriousLurker Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:10:33pm

re: #37 LudwigVanQuixote

I have no information on where the mosque part of the community center will be placed.

However, it is Muslim law that in Muslim lands that the no other house of worship shall be higher than a mosque.

Heh, fancy that—I just learned something about Islam from a Jew. Now I'm going to have to go look into that and find out the details.

This is one of the reasons that the Temple Mount, in Jerusalem, had two mosques placed on top of it. In general, building a mosque on someone else's holiest site is a thumb in the eye - and was intended as such. Just ask the Greeks about Hagia Sophia.

That's pretty much standard. I'm thinking of the Great Mosque of Cordoba (church > mosque > church), and the Christians building on top of Roman temples.

What, me worry? Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:13:56pm

re: #55 freetoken

The blogger in question also seems highly concerned about Kagan's parents, why rappers supported Obama in the election, and so forth.

Don't look for rationality and decency among the wingnuts.

Yikes, that's pretty awful. I got that sense which is why I immediately ran to Steele's side of things (strange place, I've never been there before :p). But really, he seems to be pretty high up the political food chain to take calls from donors. I guess the guy must have really BS'd his way in.

It sounds like a whole bunch of nothing to me and certainly nothing to be embarrassed about.

CuriousLurker Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:15:38pm

Alas, time for me to get back to work. BBL

davesax Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:17:07pm

A truly brilliant media come back for our term-limits overturning mayor. He must have hired the best PR people money can buy, with an intensive acting class or two.

After all, his recent performances - including defending wall street executives who destroyed the economy, and acting as the unofficial publicist for BP - were so bad, Mort Zuckerman couldn't even keep them out of the Daily News!

Gag.

windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:18:10pm

re: #60 davesax

He just couldn't possibly actually believe what he said, eh?

brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:22:41pm

When this thing broke I thought it would be a bid deal, but I am surprised to see just how big a deal this is getting to be...

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:26:46pm

re: #62 brookly red

When this thing broke I thought it would be a bid deal, but I am surprised to see just how big a deal this is getting to be...

I don't want it there AT ALL. And that's about the extent of anything that I would want to try to do about it. That's it, my opinion, nothing more than that, they have ever single right offered to them and all of us to attempt to build it where they want it.

Why is that so hard for anyone to understand?

Obdicut Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:27:48pm

re: #63 Walter L. Newton

And why don't you want it there?

Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:28:22pm

re: #64 Obdicut

And why don't you want it there?

Doesn't matter, I'm all for them putting it there.

Romantic Heretic Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:29:45pm

Every so often something happens to give me hope.

windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:31:32pm

re: #65 Walter L. Newton

Might not matter, but its an interesting question :)

Knowing its irrelevant, may I ask why anyways?

Obdicut Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:32:25pm

re: #65 Walter L. Newton

Doesn't matter, I'm all for them putting it there.

Why not answer the question, Walter?

Why don't you want it there?

davesax Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:34:58pm

re: #61 windsagio

Well, at least he got emotional. Unlike when the crane collapses killed people, and he just got angry at any reporter that asked about his oversite of the Department of Buildings.

Now, downding away, dork.

windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:35:46pm

re: #69 davesax

People need to learn that if they tell me to downding, I'll gladly help them out ;)

davesax Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:37:50pm

re: #70 windsagio

Yeah, I noticed.

It really turns me on when you downding.

Obdicut Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:38:02pm

re: #69 davesax

Meow!

davesax Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:38:46pm

re: #72 Obdicut

;-)

windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:39:39pm

re: #71 davesax

you live in PDX? We could just cut the chitchat if you wanted :)

jc717 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:39:44pm

re: #5 darthstar

Extremists are extremists. Our extremists and their extremists are opposite side of the same coin. I'm not surprised at all.

Achilles Tang Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:41:01pm

re: #43 justaminute

Maybe a cultural center should be built on ground-zero dedicated to wiping out ignorance of the Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths.

An atheist center? You must be joking!//

Achilles Tang Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:42:29pm

re: #70 windsagio

People need to learn that if they tell me to downding, I'll gladly help them out ;)

People need to learn they don't need to tell you.

windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:44:43pm

re: #77 Naso Tang

Maybe they wanna make sure :)

davesax Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:45:57pm

My point, of course, is that a good press conference hardly changes my overall picture of Bloomberg, and to hear him get choked up after taking stances that are extremely unpopular with most New Yorkers and undemocratic, besides (his endless use of eminent domain, overturning term limits, angry outbursts at reporters who challenge him with his stupid "I am what I am" comeback, etc.), really doesn't move me.

I know that's not a popular position on today's thread, but its how I feel.

Right now, I just want him to get cell phone service on the subways, something he said he'd do five years ago and never did and never mentioned again. And while he's prattling on about private property, maybe he'll enlighten us as to why he's used eminent domain so much to fill the pockets of developers.

But, today, he's the mayor who gets choked up about religious freedom.

Tomorrow, when the next corporate castrophy ruins the lives of working people, and he takes the side of the big wigs, this will all be forgotten.

Obdicut Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:47:16pm

re: #79 davesax

Why are you lying and saying that most New Yorkers don't support Park51?

davesax Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:52:04pm

re: #80 Obdicut

Obdicut, I never said that. I'm not lying about anything.

I meant his stupid defense of BP that had all the New York papers and blogs stirring, along with his ridiculous defense of Wall Street executives, his reputation for getting angry at reporters who challenge him (Clyde Haberman has good columns about this), the fact that he has some of the lowest approval ratings with minorities of any mayor in NYC history, his politicies that are making the police department a stop-and-frisk department, and the final fact that he really won the last election by the skin of his teeth.

So, downding me if I'm not moved by his most recent performance. Like I said, it tickles. ;-)

Locker Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:02:04pm

re: #69 davesax

Well, at least he got emotional. Unlike when the crane collapses killed people, and he just got angry at any reporter that asked about his oversite of the Department of Buildings.

Now, downding away, dork.

dork n. - A member of the LGF blog who has enough energy to preemptively flame anyone who may, in the future, downdings them but is too lazy to set an avatar.

davesax Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:03:52pm

Maybe I was too hard on Bloomberg. After all, he was talking about the firefighters.

I still think he's full of it most of the time.

Locker, thanks for that definition. I'll keep it in mind.

Cineaste Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:18:58pm

re: #32 marjoriemoon

Bloomberg should make a trip to southern Arizona.

I was talking with a friend the other day, another long-time New Yorker who also has lived in different places around the world and we both were commenting on the fact that New York is one of the only places in the world that doesn't have "ex-pat" communities. It has communities of New Yorkers that hail from different places around the globe - but they are New Yorkers. I could live the entire rest of my life in Paris or London but I will never be truly Parisian or a Londoner. You live in New York, you become a New Yorker. It's a powerful quality.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:11:53pm

re: #7 nines09

Look Rush! A Democrat out to ruin America! The space between church and state is called FREEDOM. Amen.

Isn't Bloomberg an independent these days? Or is he back to being a Democrat? I have never been to keep track of him.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:12:46pm

re: #11 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Just because I got stuck listening to him this morning and he was talking about Bloomberg.

Could someone tell Rush that "Strategerist" is not a fucking word? The word is strategist, you bloviating windbag.

Wait, didn't Bush once spit it out as 'strategery'? Rush may be riffing on that, although I don't know why. It was a slip of the tongue from a president he supposedly liked better than the present on.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:13:19pm

re: #14 SpaceJesus

oh hi typical fox news watcher, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel

"I say we let em build it. Wait till it opens and fills up with thousands of Muslims. Weld the doors shut, then crash a plane into it killing 3000 Muslims. There, now we're even."

upchuck
Tuesday, August 03, 2010 at 1:06 PM

SpaceJesus, you have to stop reading the comments at news sites. Crazy people go there.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:13:51pm

re: #15 webevintage

Has Rush left New York yet?
I bet Bloomberg will be glad when he finally hauls his fat ass to FL for good.

Isn't it easier to get to his doctor in Costa Rica from Florida?

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:20:09pm

re: #18 ends with space

Can I ask a question?

A wingnut friend of mine (actually, not in every way a wingnut, but a blind Arab/Muslim hater) claims that:

1) the mosque will be on the top floor (or maybe the top two floors) of the community center, and that

2) this is deliberate, because the Qur'an or sharia or a hadith or something declares that a mosque must be the highest place of worship in any "conquered" city.

I know there's no point in trying to reach this guy by exploding his myths, but I'm curious for my own sake: Is either of these points even remotely true? #1 is asserted (without substantiation) on a number of right-wing blogs but I can't find even the vaguest reference to #2 anywhere. So where did he get this?

(For the record: I myself feel that the people fighting the project are playing into the hands of the terrorists, because asserting that our vaunted freedom of religion doesn't apply to Muslims is just one more proof to the world that we're a bunch of hypocrites with no right to lecture others about morality.)

1. I believe that the use of upper floors for prayer space is to honor the prayer rooms.

2. Historically speaking, various Muslim armies and governments have built minarets higher than local churches, or restricted the height of churches and synagogues, to prove a point of dominance. I have no idea if this is in the hadith or not. It's not being made up, but it is being universalized and 'codified' in a way that doesn't reflect historical experience.

3. Christians did similar things, so you clearly don't need whatever hadith it is to get the basic symbolism here.

4. The top of the Burlington Coat Factory building is, I'm gonna wager, not in the top 5000 points in Manhattan, and no, there is no special dispensation that says it needs to only be a 'place of worship' and skyscrapers don't count.

5. New York is not a conquered city. New York is the banner of American diversity, freedom, and commerce.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:21:05pm

re: #24 JasonA

Er, I don't think it just applies to "conquered" cities. See Kingdom Centre, a really tall skyscraper that has a mosque on top.

Not that I really give a crap. Still a pretty building.

Your taste in buildings, she is not my taste in buildings.

Rhino Dryke Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:33:45pm

The idea that this controversy is about freedom of religion is a joke. The building of this "center" is a political act and nothing more. If I had the means to buy enough property to erect this building somewhere else in the city and gave it to the people who are trying to get this thing built, I am certain that I would not be taken up on it. I would bet my life on it.
And to preemptively answer the question as to why it should not be built in this exact location my response would be that it is insensitive to the victims of the radicalized Islamists who commited the destruction of WTC. Most of the victims families find it offensive. Friends of mine who lost family and friends find it offensive. And, oh by the way, one can be against this building being built and not be intolerant.

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:52:06pm

re: #91 Rhino Dryke

No you don't get the last word on a dead thread, and no, your 9/11 boilerplate GOP talking-point fake-ass heartstring pulling about friends who lost friends doesn't support your argument, in fact it weakens it, and also I don't believe you

Back into the bucket

Youtube Video

Obdicut Tue, Aug 3, 2010 8:48:51pm

re: #91 Rhino Dryke

And the Muslim victims of 9/11? What about them?

meeshlr Tue, Aug 3, 2010 10:47:31pm

My husband is Muslim and he believes that it is wrong to build a mosque so close to Ground Zero in NYC.

I know that they are completely within their rights to build a mosque on any property that they own. However, just because it is legal doesn't make it the right thing to do.

freetoken Tue, Aug 3, 2010 10:58:34pm

re: #94 meeshlr

My husband is Muslim and he believes that it is wrong to build a mosque so close to Ground Zero in NYC.

He is "Muslim"... hmmm, is he a religious muslim, or does he simply label himself that because his parents raised him that way?

The reason I ask is your blog post:

I would open a BBQ restaurant next door to the the Ground Zero mosque and Islamic center. We would have the smoker and grill out back. Featured meal? Pulled pork sandwiches and cold beer with a side of bacon.

meeshlr Tue, Aug 3, 2010 11:50:32pm

He's a religious Muslim. Five daily prayers, no pork, no alcohol, went on Hajj ... does that fulfill your criteria?

I'm an atheist and that is MY blog, not his.

Obdicut Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:10:08am

re: #96 meeshlr

And yet you'd have a BBQ just to offend ordinary Muslims, near the community center.

Classy!

Rhino Dryke Wed, Aug 4, 2010 4:44:29am

My post weakens my argument? GOP talking points? Pathetic. And it is just as much a tragedy for Muslim victims families as it is for the families of other faiths.

Rhino Dryke Wed, Aug 4, 2010 5:10:55am

and atheists and agnostics.

100

davesax Wed, Aug 4, 2010 8:26:07am

Who cares what Bloomberg said at an orchestrated press conference. Media PR bullshit.

101

davesax Wed, Aug 4, 2010 8:38:39am

And good for Megan McArdle at the Atlantic for pointing out his ludicrous, newfound respect for private property after using eminent domain to approve the money losing Atlantic yards to be subsidized with city money.

Watching you guys fall into groupthink about a Mayor you obviously know nothing about is a trip.

102

Obdicut Wed, Aug 4, 2010 9:13:12am

re: #101 davesax

You seem like a really unbiased source who we should put a lot of credibility into.

103

Gus Wed, Aug 4, 2010 9:22:00am

re: #100 davesax

Who cares what Bloomberg said at an orchestrated press conference. Media PR bullshit.

Maybe you should stick with Atlas Shrugged, Gates of Vienna, and Jihad Watch. You'll be happier there.

104

Charles Johnson Wed, Aug 4, 2010 9:45:02am

re: #91 Rhino Dryke

And yet another raving bigot awakes from sleep.

105

Rhino Dryke Wed, Aug 4, 2010 10:08:55am

How is my post bigoted? And because I don't post on your blog I'm asleep?

106

jaunte Wed, Aug 4, 2010 10:16:24am

re: #105 Rhino Dryke

You're asleep because you haven't noticed the mosque in question has been at 12 Warren Street since 1970.

107

Charles Johnson Wed, Aug 4, 2010 10:19:30am

re: #94 meeshlr

My husband is Muslim and he believes that it is wrong to build a mosque so close to Ground Zero in NYC.

I know that they are completely within their rights to build a mosque on any property that they own. However, just because it is legal doesn't make it the right thing to do.

Really? Your husband is a "practicing Muslim," yet you write on your blog about your plans to hold a bigoted pork BBQ for no reason except to offend Muslims?

And you think people are going to believe you?

108

Rhino Dryke Wed, Aug 4, 2010 10:20:47am

There are mosques all over the city-so what.

109

jaunte Wed, Aug 4, 2010 10:21:51am

re: #108 Rhino Dryke

Yes.

110

Locker Wed, Aug 4, 2010 10:22:00am

re: #91 Rhino Dryke

The idea that this controversy is about freedom of religion is a joke. The building of this "center" is a political act and nothing more. If I had the means to buy enough property to erect this building somewhere else in the city and gave it to the people who are trying to get this thing built, I am certain that I would not be taken up on it. I would bet my life on it.
And to preemptively answer the question as to why it should not be built in this exact location my response would be that it is insensitive to the victims of the radicalized Islamists who commited the destruction of WTC. Most of the victims families find it offensive. Friends of mine who lost family and friends find it offensive. And, oh by the way, one can be against this building being built and not be intolerant.

I find every single church in my extremely conservative town offensive but that doesn't mean I could or should be able to stop their construction or have them move. Guess what, I don't care if you are offended, especially when it's false outrage being used to cover up bigotry.

How can you be against this project and not call yourself intolerant? It's a simple and clear cut case of freedom of religion and private property. There are no "tolerant" reasons to create this much of an uproar of a perfectly legal AND protected activity.

Why do you think that rules are only applicable when they are in your benefit or support your own bias?

111

Locker Wed, Aug 4, 2010 10:22:57am

re: #94 meeshlr

My husband is Muslim and he believes that it is wrong to build a mosque so close to Ground Zero in NYC.

I know that they are completely within their rights to build a mosque on any property that they own. However, just because it is legal doesn't make it the right thing to do.

Yea and just because it's legal for you bucket heads to shoot your ignorant and bigoted mouths off doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

112

webevintage Wed, Aug 4, 2010 10:26:03am

re: #101 davesax

And good for Megan McArdle at the Atlantic for pointing out his ludicrous, newfound respect for private property after using eminent domain to approve the money losing Atlantic yards to be subsidized with city money.

Watching you guys fall into groupthink about a Mayor you obviously know nothing about is a trip.

Megan?
Now I know you can't be taken as seriously.
No one gets points for using The McArdle to back up an argument.

For all I know Bloomberg might suck as a mayor but in this instance he is right.
America.
Religous Freedom.
Think on that a bit.
Asshole.

113

Locker Wed, Aug 4, 2010 10:28:33am

re: #100 davesax

Who cares what Bloomberg said at an orchestrated press conference. Media PR bullshit.

I'm gonna go ahead and say that a lot more folks care about that than your personal PR bullshit.

114

Rhino Dryke Wed, Aug 4, 2010 10:28:46am

i agree that it is perfectly legal for this building to be built. And I am defintely not advocating for the government to intervene here. I am saying that to build a new mosque in the shadow of the former WTC is insensitive to the victims families. So go ahead and attempt to parse my posts if you like. But I'm no bigot.

115

webevintage Wed, Aug 4, 2010 10:32:13am

re: #114 Rhino Dryke

I am saying that to build a new mosque in the shadow of the former WTC is insensitive to the victims families.

Maybe it is.
Maybe you are not a bigot.
BUT religious freedom in America is more important then the feelings of the victims families.

116

jaunte Wed, Aug 4, 2010 10:32:37am

re: #106 jaunte

You're asleep because you haven't noticed the mosque in question has been at 12 Warren Street since 1970.

Sorry, I misread the source. To clarify, the Masjid Mosque (not the group building Cordoba house mosque) has been at 12 Warren Street since 1970. Which is just 4 blocks north of the site of the World Trade Center towers. What's the difference in that location and the Cordoba house location that causes such a huge difference in anti-mosque sentiment?
[Link: www.musalmantimes.com...]

117

Locker Wed, Aug 4, 2010 10:33:55am

re: #114 Rhino Dryke

i agree that it is perfectly legal for this building to be built. And I am defintely not advocating for the government to intervene here. I am saying that to build a new mosque in the shadow of the former WTC is insensitive to the victims families. So go ahead and attempt to parse my posts if you like. But I'm no bigot.

It is bigoted. Let me explain. Some fuckhead whack jobs crashed those planes into our buildings. Just like some whack job blew up the OKC Federal Building.

It's not insensitive to the victims families to build a Catholic Church near the site of that bombing and it's not insensitive to the victims families to build a Mosque near the WTC site.

You, and people like you are inferring that the entire Muslim faith carried out this attack and that anything Muslim is offensive. THAT is being bigoted.

118

Rhino Dryke Wed, Aug 4, 2010 10:42:10am

Religious freedom is one of the cornerstones of the USA. And I agree that the concept of that freedom probably should trump the concerns of the families. But let me ask those who so carelessly call others bigots: Do you think that this site was picked randomly?

119

Locker Wed, Aug 4, 2010 10:45:33am

re: #118 Rhino Dryke

Religious freedom is one of the cornerstones of the USA. And I agree that the concept of that freedom probably should trump the concerns of the families. But let me ask those who so carelessly call others bigots: Do you think that this site was picked randomly?

Do you think the bike sharing program in Denver was created randomly?? Or is a secret UN plot to take over the US?

So the "excuse/reason" for your bigotry is a sinister, self-realized conspiracy plot to do what exactly? What's the big plot here?

120

Charles Johnson Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:01:18am

re: #118 Rhino Dryke

Religious freedom is one of the cornerstones of the USA. And I agree that the concept of that freedom probably should trump the concerns of the families. But let me ask those who so carelessly call others bigots: Do you think that this site was picked randomly?

Randomly? No, of course not. It was picked because it's an empty building, and because there have been Muslim prayer services held there for a long time already. Yes, that's right. They're already there. In case you haven't noticed, there isn't a whole lot of available real estate in lower Manhattan.

So let me ask you: how can you say your opinion isn't bigoted, when you're trying to claim that the Muslims of Park51 are furthering the work of the 9/11 hijackers -- without ANY evidence for this belief?

121

Rhino Dryke Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:18:11am

There isn't a whole lot of real estate available in Manhattan? In this economy?
Charles, are you a mindreader? I am not using the same broad brush that you are in calling me a bigot.
I have nothing at all against law-abiding Muslims who wish to practice their faith. I do not care if you believe that. I am sensitive to the families that have lost victims who question the motives of those developing this site. Why not build a multi-denominational facility that celebrates all faiths.

122

jaunte Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:24:32am

Manhattan real estate:

Silverstein's president of World Trade Center properties Janno Lieber adds that there are a number of other reasons why developers are bullish on Downtown. For one, he points out that despite a soured economy, Downtown has the lowest vacancy of any commercial business district in the nation. The national average is 16.3 percent. The vacancy rate in Midtown is currently 10.5 percent.

Mayor Bloomberg’s Speech on Park51

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