For today’s break from the political meatgrinder, here’s a fascinating talk by Yale primate psychologist Laurie Santos on her research into whether humans are wired to make bad decisions in some circumstances. Warning: this video features monkeys who learn to use money.
(Hat tip: Slumbering Behemoth.)
1 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:00:51pm |
Warning: this video features monkeys who learn to use money.
I live in Brooklyn... deal with that every day.
| 2 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:03:23pm |
Will I end up in some kind of internet limbo for updinging this post?
BTW, curse the Lizard that introduced me to TED. Those vids are extremely addictive. I'm a TED junkie, there is no hope left for me./
| 3 |
Kragar Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:06:28pm |
So my daughter told me last night the one ride that really scared her at Disneyland was the submarine ride. She was scared that we might be diving too deep.
| 4 |
Targetpractice Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:23:07pm |
Monkeys learning to use money? So this video is about Congress?
| 5 |
Jetpilot1101 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:36:17pm |
OT: Why does Ed Schultz on MSNBC yell at everyone?
| 6 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:42:25pm |
Update: Solar storm in the forecast; celestial light shows expected
The latest estimates are that the plasma will arrive in four waves, one at 3 a.m. Wednesday, one at 1 p.m. Wednesday, one at 8 p.m. Wednesday, and one at 2 a.m. Thursday, said David Aguilar, a spokesman for the Harvard-Smithsonian center.
There is a three-hour window of uncertainty both before and after those target times, he said, because the speed of the waves is not constant.
"They're like giant hurricanes. They're large and fuzzy and they're moving along. They're not like railroad trains in Europe that run on time," he said.
He said the first wave was the most powerful, but depending on the earth's magnetic field, any of the four waves could produce a spectacular light show.
The aurorae will likely not be visible during the daylight hours or to city residents, so those who want to see them would do best to get away from urban light pollution and plan to stay up late.
| 7 |
Four More Tears Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:42:34pm |
| 8 |
Jetpilot1101 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:45:43pm |
re: #7 JasonA
I can't stand him.
I try and keep an open mind so I wander around the cable news networks (that is when I watch them at all). He just seems like a left wing Bill O'Reilly; always yelling and never letting his guests get a word in edgewise unless he agrees with them.
| 9 |
HappyWarrior Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:45:48pm |
Ya know on a purely sentimental level, I look at monkeys and think who wouldn't want to be related to them. They're smart and resourceful animals. I'll never get why people get offend if you suggest that we have a common ancestor with them. I'm a humanities guy but the primates fascinate me to no end.
| 10 |
webevintage Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:52:29pm |
Too much talky not enough monkeys with money.....
BTW Bristol and Levi are off again?
Say it isn't so!!!!!!
That family would make the best non-southern redneck reality show ever.
| 11 |
Four More Tears Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:52:56pm |
re: #8 Jetpilot1101
I try and keep an open mind so I wander around the cable news networks (that is when I watch them at all). He just seems like a left wing Bill O'Reilly; always yelling and never letting his guests get a word in edgewise unless he agrees with them.
Those stupid phone polls of his rub me the wrong way. Gee, I wonder how people watching Ed Schultz are going to vote? Talk about an echo chamber...
| 12 |
webevintage Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:53:29pm |
re: #5 Jetpilot1101
OT: Why does Ed Schultz on MSNBC yell at everyone?
No idea.
My husband watched him on Friday and I had to leave the room, no like the yelling from Ed.
| 13 |
Jetpilot1101 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:56:19pm |
re: #11 JasonA
Those stupid phone polls of his rub me the wrong way. Gee, I wonder how people watching Ed Schultz are going to vote? Talk about an echo chamber...
I dislike them on any channel. Same thing happens on FoxNews and CNN. I find that the vast majority of the "opinion shows" on cable news are nothing more than shock jocks that placate their minions. I honestly don't watch them too much, I prefer a good book or conversations with friends on a well built blogging website.
| 14 |
HappyWarrior Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:00:11pm |
Political talk show hosts in general really rub me the wrong way. The majority of them seem like arrogant sobs who really do feel that they are God's gift to all of us and yet at the same time they pander by pretending to be one of "us." It's like when Limbaugh rails against elites and you know that he's worth millions of dollars and is part of the same establishment he rails against. There are some good political talk show hosts I suppose. Maddow isn't bad and it doesn't feel like I'm watching a lefty version of Limbaugh like I have with some of the other ones.
| 17 |
BenghaziHoops Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:03:09pm |
Good Afternoon Lizards!
It's a tad cooler today in Oklahoma.. Only 102 degrees...
I want a trained monkey that cooks, cleans and does laundry..And doesn't spend money!
/
| 18 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:03:36pm |
re: #10 webevintage
Too much talky not enough monkeys with money...
BTW Bristol and Levi are off again?
Say it isn't so!!!That family would make the best non-southern redneck reality show ever.
It seems he believes he may have fathered a child with yet someone else.
Tacky, tawdry buncha people.
| 19 |
Targetpractice Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:08:17pm |
re: #18 reine.de.tout
It seems he believes he may have fathered a child with yet someone else.
Tacky, tawdry buncha people.
I knew that video was gonna bite him in the ass. He saw dollar signs and couldn't stop for a second to consider how his fiancee would view the video's subject matter.
I was wondering how long it'd be before he screwed up again and the whole thing was called off again. I was betting at least until after the 2012 elections, but I guess he couldn't wait that long.
| 20 |
Cato the Elder Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:08:41pm |
This is my last post here.
Charles, I am walking away. No anger, no blame. My time is simply up, in the blogosphere as in meatspace.
If you would, please leave my account open so I can retrieve my shitty poems. There may be enough to make a shitty book.
Anyone who wants to stay in touch, and I mean anyone, my nick is blue for the last time.
God bless us, every one.
| 21 |
Cato the Elder Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:09:30pm |
| 22 |
HappyWarrior Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:09:35pm |
re: #18 reine.de.tout
It seems he believes he may have fathered a child with yet someone else.
Tacky, tawdry buncha people.
Well that was quick.
| 23 |
BenghaziHoops Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:14:39pm |
re: #20 Cato the Elder
Bummer Cato...
Yesterday,
All my blogging seemed so far away,
Now it looks as though I need to go away,
Oh, I believe in yesterday.
Suddenly,
I'm not half the man I used to be,
There's a shadow hanging over me,
Oh, yesterday came suddenly.
Why he
Had to go I don't know, he wouldn't say.
I said,
Something wrong, now I long for yesterday.
Yesterday,
Blogging was such an easy game to play,
Now I need a place to hide away,
Oh, I believe in yesterday.
| 24 |
Irenicum Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:14:45pm |
re: #21 Cato the Elder
Send me an email Cato. I'd love to stay in touch. I'm blue too right now.
| 25 |
Irenicum Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:17:28pm |
re: #21 Cato the Elder
For some reason I'm not seeing a mail thingy working on your nic. So please click on mine Cato. This place won't be same without you here.
| 26 |
avanti Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:20:03pm |
The developers of the Park 51 community center will add a inner faith center and a memorial to the victims of 9-11. Any bets on that making the opponents back off ?
| 27 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:22:34pm |
re: #21 Cato the Elder
And, of course, I forgot to click the nick-bluing box.
Done.
I cat'n make that work... but I do want to speak to you about editorial assignments... do you know AMA standards?
| 28 |
Stonemason Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:23:19pm |
re: #26 avanti
The developers of the Park 51 community center will add a inner faith center and a memorial to the victims of 9-11. Any bets on that making the opponents back off ?
disclaimer: build it if you can afford it, simple as that.
Question: will the hijackers be treated as Victims? Martyrs? or the murderers that they were?
That is one of the problems people have with this building, and it is a legitimate moral gripe.
There is no legal or constitutional leg to stand on where opposing this is concerned.
| 29 |
albusteve Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:23:27pm |
re: #4 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Monkeys learning to use money? So this video is about Congress?
good one
| 30 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:23:41pm |
re: #20 Cato the Elder
This is my last post here.
Charles, I am walking away. No anger, no blame. My time is simply up, in the blogosphere as in meatspace.
If you would, please leave my account open so I can retrieve my shitty poems. There may be enough to make a shitty book.
Anyone who wants to stay in touch, and I mean anyone, my nick is blue for the last time.
God bless us, every one.
Things will not be the same without you.
| 31 |
Cato the Elder Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:24:37pm |
It seems the email system gives some people problems.
My throwaway address, stalkers, feel free, is [catosenior] at gmail.com
| 32 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:25:01pm |
re: #26 avanti
The developers of the Park 51 community center will add a inner faith center and a memorial to the victims of 9-11. Any bets on that making the opponents back off ?
If many/some/a great many/would need to take a poll to figure out the exact number/ratio of the people who opposed the Park 51 community center could be swayed by things like logic or actions they wouldn't be against it in the first place!
| 34 |
albusteve Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:26:24pm |
re: #20 Cato the Elder
This is my last post here.
Charles, I am walking away. No anger, no blame. My time is simply up, in the blogosphere as in meatspace.
If you would, please leave my account open so I can retrieve my shitty poems. There may be enough to make a shitty book.
Anyone who wants to stay in touch, and I mean anyone, my nick is blue for the last time.
God bless us, every one.
damn you Cato...I respect your choice tho
| 35 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:28:13pm |
re: #26 avanti
The developers of the Park 51 community center will add a inner faith center and a memorial to the victims of 9-11. Any bets on that making the opponents back off ?
There's going to be a culinary school in there as well.
| 36 |
Irenicum Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:29:13pm |
re: #31 Cato the Elder
You should be getting a message now Cato. Blessings to you.
| 37 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:29:23pm |
re: #31 Cato the Elder
It seems the email system gives some people problems.
My throwaway address, stalkers, feel free, is [catosenior] at gmail.com
Run... but you cannot hide... I have you phone number, all your email addresses, I know who you are... I've even seen your jolly visage sitting at my table blathering away about this topic and that topic... you can leave LGF, fine, but you can't get away from me... that's not a threat... that's a fact.
Stop being a jerk. (I say that in love, well, you know what I mean, a man love, not a sexual love... well, don't take that the wrong way... shit... no I'm not gay... why would you think that... please, I never even came near you... you had the door locked all night... you and that scary little dog who looks like an alien...)
| 38 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:30:35pm |
re: #1 brookly red
Warning: this video features monkeys who learn to use money.
I live in Brooklyn... deal with that every day.
Fifteen/twenty years ago, a monkey escaped from the San Francisco Zoo, taking her baby with her. They were spotted in a number of locations in the Sunset before she discovered Stern Grove, and decided it was a good baby-raising spot.
They were captured and returned to the zoo despite objections from a number of San Franciscans, myself included, who felt that a primate that had demonstrated that it can cross Nineteenth Avenue safely had pretty much earned the right to live independently in San Francisco if it so chose.
| 39 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:31:24pm |
re: #10 webevintage
Too much talky not enough monkeys with money...
BTW Bristol and Levi are off again?
Say it isn't so!!!That family would make the best non-southern redneck reality show ever.
She can do better.
| 40 |
lostlakehiker Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:32:47pm |
I thought about blowing off this stupid video and clicking away from it a minute or two into it, but then I thought that would mean I'd lost time watching it. I hate being a loser, so I watched all the way through, in the hope that I'd be able to make an intelligent comment and win some karma after all.
:-)
| 41 |
albusteve Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:33:14pm |
re: #31 Cato the Elder
It seems the email system gives some people problems.
My throwaway address, stalkers, feel free, is [catosenior] at gmail.com
I consider this a personal insult, just remember that bro
| 42 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:33:32pm |
re: #21 Cato the Elder
And, of course, I forgot to click the nick-bluing box.
Done.
Ave atque vale.
We'll leave the light on for ya!
And I'll see you around.
| 43 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:34:47pm |
re: #26 avanti
The developers of the Park 51 community center will add a inner faith center and a memorial to the victims of 9-11. Any bets on that making the opponents back off ?
No chance. They'll see it as gloating. They're determined to portray these folks as the triumphalist conquerors of NYC.
The fact that NYC has not been conquered does not seem to matter to them.
| 44 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:35:47pm |
re: #28 Stonemason
disclaimer: build it if you can afford it, simple as that.
Question: will the hijackers be treated as Victims? Martyrs? or the murderers that they were?
That is one of the problems people have with this building, and it is a legitimate moral gripe.
What IS the problem, though? What's 'that'? A deep distrust that any Muslims are truly against terror?
| 46 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:40:27pm |
re: #38 SanFranciscoZionist
Fifteen/twenty years ago, a monkey escaped from the San Francisco Zoo, taking her baby with her. They were spotted in a number of locations in the Sunset before she discovered Stern Grove, and decided it was a good baby-raising spot.
They were captured and returned to the zoo despite objections from a number of San Franciscans, myself included, who felt that a primate that had demonstrated that it can cross Nineteenth Avenue safely had pretty much earned the right to live independently in San Francisco if it so chose.
yes but such an intelligent creature would surely voted in a way that the local authorities just could not allow.
| 47 |
Irenicum Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:40:53pm |
re: #45 Bear
I think since it's from Boston.com, it's probably Eastern time.
| 48 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:41:52pm |
re: #46 brookly red
yes but such an intelligent creature would surely voted in a way that the local authorities just could not allow.
You mean she might have voted for 'compassionate conservative' Gavin Newsom? Hell, so did I.
//Wait, there's a knock at the door. Some guys out there with a big butterfly net. Gotta go!!
| 49 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:41:56pm |
re: #43 SanFranciscoZionist
No chance. They'll see it as gloating. They're determined to portray these folks as the triumphalist conquerors of NYC.
The fact that NYC has not been conquered does not seem to matter to them.
conquered no. attacked? damn skippy
| 50 |
Stonemason Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:42:05pm |
re: #44 SanFranciscoZionist
"that" would be the small, slight, minuscule, possibility that somewhere in the memorial for the victims of the attacks would be martyrdom pictures/videos of the hijackers. If, and it is an if, that were to occur, the reaction would be ugly, right?
Well, the 'man on the street' was celebrating that day in many Muslim enclaves around the world (I know, not as many as portrayed, but it did happen), so some of the arguments against the placement of this center could be along those lines, and they are legitimate. Not all the protests are rooted in bigotry is all I am saying.
and once again, 'cause some don't read the whole thread, my personal opinion is that if they can afford it they can build it (now that the silly attempt to make the Burlington Coat Factory a historic site is over).
| 51 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:42:51pm |
re: #48 SanFranciscoZionist
You mean she might have voted for 'compassionate conservative' Gavin Newsom? Hell, so did I.
//Wait, there's a knock at the door. Some guys out there with a big butterfly net. Gotta go!!
no that is a fema camp... don't g...
damn.
| 52 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:43:41pm |
re: #45 Bear
Are those times Pacific?
It's a Boston paper so it might be est. It might also be a relative thing that applies in every time zone. Not sure. Either way the article mentions a 3 hour window for each event so there's lots of leeway.
| 53 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:44:05pm |
| 55 |
abolitionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:45:10pm |
I disagree with the premise that making evaluations of alternatives in a relative way is irrational. Here's a simple example to make the point. Suppose you have in your posession 10 units of food. The experimenter makes you a choice:
a) Yet one more unit of food for you, free and clear, or
b) on the flip of a coin, if heads, you get 20 more, but if tails you lose the 10 you had.
Choose a) and you then have 11 units of food.
Choose b) and you then have either 0 or 30.
The b) choice may look better to a Wall Street tycoon, provided he cares not one whit if he starves.
| 56 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:45:14pm |
re: #53 SanFranciscoZionist
Bloodied, but entirely unbowed.
Of course it's unbowed, it's New York.
I'd start making jokes at this point, but as I don't live there so I feel its not my place....
| 57 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:45:33pm |
Goodbye Cato, and good luck. (I started writing something else, and it sounded really dippy, so let's stick with this.)
| 58 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:45:39pm |
re: #54 Varek Raith
Evening.
What do you mean by that?
Got something against afternoons,, mornings!!
Eveningist!
| 59 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:46:36pm |
| 60 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:47:41pm |
re: #20 Cato the Elder
This is my last post here.
Charles, I am walking away. No anger, no blame. My time is simply up, in the blogosphere as in meatspace.
If you would, please leave my account open so I can retrieve my shitty poems. There may be enough to make a shitty book.
Anyone who wants to stay in touch, and I mean anyone, my nick is blue for the last time.
God bless us, every one.
NNOOOOOOOQ!!!!!!!
| 61 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:48:44pm |
re: #50 Stonemason
"that" would be the small, slight, minuscule, possibility that somewhere in the memorial for the victims of the attacks would be martyrdom pictures/videos of the hijackers. If, and it is an if, that were to occur, the reaction would be ugly, right?
Well, the 'man on the street' was celebrating that day in many Muslim enclaves around the world (I know, not as many as portrayed, but it did happen), so some of the arguments against the placement of this center could be along those lines, and they are legitimate. Not all the protests are rooted in bigotry is all I am saying.
and once again, 'cause some don't read the whole thread, my personal opinion is that if they can afford it they can build it (now that the silly attempt to make the Burlington Coat Factory a historic site is over).
I understand what you're saying, and yes, I have that distrust myself.
But these protests are, in fact, rooted in bigotry. That part is reasonably clear.
So how about we let the people at the mosque actually do something offensive BEFORE going nuts? So far they haven't actually done anything except want to build a mosque, and there really isn't a moral objection to people wanting to build a mosque.
| 62 |
Bear Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:48:48pm |
Thanks for the time info. With great luck the sky will be dark enough and the overcast stay away to see the aurora here in SE Alaska.
| 64 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:49:14pm |
Superman Saves Family From Foreclosure
It sounds like the stuff of superhero stories: a family on the brink of foreclosure saved their home when they found a rare copy of Superman's debut comic, Action Comics #1, in their basement.
| 65 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:49:28pm |
| 66 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:50:05pm |
| 67 |
Four More Tears Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:50:30pm |
| 68 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:50:35pm |
| 69 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:51:24pm |
| 70 |
Stonemason Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:51:48pm |
re: #61 SanFranciscoZionist
I understand what you're saying, and yes, I have that distrust myself.
But these protests are, in fact, rooted in bigotry. That part is reasonably clear.
So how about we let the people at the mosque actually do something offensive BEFORE going nuts? So far they haven't actually done anything except want to build a mosque, and there really isn't a moral objection to people wanting to build a mosque.
Right, I agree. I do. With the second part.
Just makin' conversation really, trying to get folks to come down off of the 'everyone who opposes the Park 51 Center are bigots'.
I see that isn't going to happen though, which is okay too.
| 71 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:52:16pm |
| 72 |
Stonemason Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:52:44pm |
re: #62 Bear
Thanks for the time info. With great luck the sky will be dark enough and the overcast stay away to see the aurora here in SE Alaska.
Alaska? Sheesh, I am hoping for clear skies in PA!! You're gonna see stuff according to all I have read.
| 73 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:53:03pm |
| 74 |
albusteve Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:53:45pm |
| 75 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:54:25pm |
| 76 |
albusteve Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:54:26pm |
| 77 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:54:32pm |
| 78 |
albusteve Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:55:14pm |
| 79 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:56:21pm |
re: #76 albusteve
so do I...still bums me out
I guess there is a candle in the window for him to find his way home...but let us be real home ain't what it once was.
| 80 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:57:58pm |
re: #70 Stonemason
Right, I agree. I do. With the second part.
Just makin' conversation really, trying to get folks to come down off of the 'everyone who opposes the Park 51 Center are bigots'.
I see that isn't going to happen though, which is okay too.
I'd say that getting a slightly icky feeling in the stomach is perfectly natural, and not more bigoted than the experience of this generation allows for.
I would say that anyone running around screaming that these are bad, evil people, and all of Manhattan is sacred ground are, in fact, being public bigots.
It's not that there aren't actual reasons to feel sort of dicey about a mosque project in the area. But the most prominent objectors, at this point, also object to mosques in Murfreesboro and Temecula.
So I don't feel I'm being mean to the organized protestors.
To the people who, like me, just feel slightly distrustful and resentful, I can only say, let's just do the stiff upper lip thing. Our grandchildren, God willing, won't understand what the big deal was.
| 81 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:58:34pm |
re: #75 brookly red
wow I thought O was gonna do that?
I don't think anybody did, except that one crazy woman at the rally.
| 82 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:59:44pm |
re: #81 SanFranciscoZionist
I don't think anybody did, except that one crazy woman at the rally.
and the other 60 million behind her...
| 83 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:59:54pm |
re: #38 SanFranciscoZionist
Fifteen/twenty years ago, a monkey escaped from the San Francisco Zoo, taking her baby with her. They were spotted in a number of locations in the Sunset before she discovered Stern Grove, and decided it was a good baby-raising spot.
They were captured and returned to the zoo despite objections from a number of San Franciscans, myself included, who felt that a primate that had demonstrated that it can cross Nineteenth Avenue safely had pretty much earned the right to live independently in San Francisco if it so chose.
She is still a wild animal, and if she had harmed a citizen while trying to protect her baby, the city could, you know, get its pants sued off.
| 84 |
lostlakehiker Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:00:11pm |
re: #44 SanFranciscoZionist
What IS the problem, though? What's 'that'? A deep distrust that any Muslims are truly against terror?
It is entirely possible that there are Muslims who consider terrorism bad tactics and are therefore opposed to it. There is ample grounding in history and in current affairs for this military judgment---that it won't work. Islamic doctrine allows for retreat and patience, to a point, in the face of insuperable odds.
A Muslim who reads the texts that count as holy writ in his community will read of the sword, of conversion by the sword, of forcing captured women into marriage even though they be married already and are unwilling, of pillage and slavery. Of the death penalty for apostasy, for adultery. Of the obligation to pursue conversion, or failing that, conquest and in its wake, conversion, by all possible means at every opportunity.
If he has moral objections to any of that, he had best keep silent, for dissent is apostasy. There must be untold Muslims who are desperately unhappy with the fact that their texts demand such things. But this is private distress, not Islamic policy.
I don't propose to rescind the right of a Muslim to teach his doctrine and invite others into it, but I find it regrettable that the doctrine has any appeal. Should it somehow catch on, my alternatives and yours would narrow down to forced conversion, death, or dhimmitude.
| 85 |
albusteve Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:00:34pm |
re: #79 brookly red
I guess there is a candle in the window for him to find his way home...but let us be real home ain't what it once was.
I've spoken with Cato personally...he is enormously generous and a good soul...the real deal
| 86 |
wrenchwench Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:01:06pm |
re: #20 Cato the Elder
This is my last post here.
Charles, I am walking away. No anger, no blame. My time is simply up, in the blogosphere as in meatspace.
If you would, please leave my account open so I can retrieve my shitty poems. There may be enough to make a shitty book.
Anyone who wants to stay in touch, and I mean anyone, my nick is blue for the last time.
God bless us, every one.
There have been many flounces by people who didn't like some other commenter on this blog. I have zero respect for those flounces.
You didn't give that reason on this post, but you did elsewhere.
| 88 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:01:43pm |
re: #85 albusteve
I've spoken with Cato personally...he is enormously generous and a good soul...the real deal
yes I can see that... like I said I can see where he is coming from.
| 89 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:01:47pm |
| 90 |
albusteve Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:01:55pm |
re: #81 SanFranciscoZionist
I don't think anybody did, except that one crazy woman at the rally.
oh no...she represents the entire left, all liberals, progs and donks
that's how it works
| 91 |
lostlakehiker Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:02:42pm |
re: #55 abolitionist
I disagree with the premise that making evaluations of alternatives in a relative way is irrational. Here's a simple example to make the point. Suppose you have in your posession 10 units of food. The experimenter makes you a choice:
a) Yet one more unit of food for you, free and clear, or
b) on the flip of a coin, if heads, you get 20 more, but if tails you lose the 10 you had.Choose a) and you then have 11 units of food.
Choose b) and you then have either 0 or 30.The b) choice may look better to a Wall Street tycoon, provided he cares not one whit if he starves.
You miss the point. Objectively, in this experiment, both games carried the exact same payoffs and probabilities. There is no logical grounds for choosing the risky strategy when the game is dressed up in one fashion and the safe strategy when it's dressed up in the other fashion.
| 92 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:02:46pm |
| 93 |
Stonemason Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:03:23pm |
re: #80 SanFranciscoZionist
I understand ya, and the premise, 'cause the organizers are a rather crappy bunch.
The people though, they are all over the spectrum on this one...
Ahhh oh well, it seems that there isn't any money yet ($18,000 according to a BBC report about 3 hours ago) so it may ever happen anyway, which is what made it rather moot to begin with.
Hopefully no one gets....Halladay just knocked in 2!!!!!!!!...hurt at the protests.
| 94 |
PhillyPretzel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:03:44pm |
re: #6 Killgore Trout
I will try to catch a view but since I live in the city I probably will not see it. I hope some fellow Lizards will try to catch it on film/digital media.
| 95 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:03:48pm |
Cato, invest in a little kitty, and when you get all stressed and want to rip the limbs off of a lefty twit , leave the computer and love the kitty. That's what I do.
| 96 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:03:49pm |
re: #83 Alouette
She is still a wild animal, and if she had harmed a citizen while trying to protect her baby, the city could, you know, get its pants sued off.
True. I just thought it would be cool to have monkeys in the park.
| 97 |
b_Snark Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:04:17pm |
Cato, I'm sorry to see you feel the need to leave. From my perspective it certainly isn't necessary nor is it desirable. Your personality has become an integral part of LGF and the personality of LGF will change without you.
I would prefer your absence to be temporary and short.
| 98 |
prairiefire Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:05:19pm |
re: #18 reine.de.tout
It seems he believes he may have fathered a child with yet someone else.
Tacky, tawdry buncha people.
Ya know, I am always hoping for the best in people, and am often disappointed.
| 99 |
jaunte Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:05:40pm |
re: #97 b_sharp
Cato, I'm sorry to see you feel the need to leave. From my perspective it certainly isn't necessary nor is it desirable. Your personality has become an integral part of LGF and the personality of LGF will change without you.
I would prefer your absence to be temporary and short.
I'll second that. Our language here will be poorer for the absence.
| 100 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:06:14pm |
re: #97 b_sharp
Cato, I'm sorry to see you feel the need to leave. From my perspective it certainly isn't necessary nor is it desirable. Your personality has become an integral part of LGF and the personality of LGF will change without you.
I would prefer your absence to be temporary and short.
I would prefer that too but let us be real Cato stood up and did what felt he needed to do and it is what it is.
| 101 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:06:40pm |
re: #90 albusteve
oh no...she represents the entire left, all liberals, progs and donks
that's how it works
PROZS IZ MADE FAH TAXIN' AN SPENDIN'!
| 102 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:07:33pm |
re: #84 lostlakehiker
It is entirely possible that there are Muslims who consider terrorism bad tactics and are therefore opposed to it. There is ample grounding in history and in current affairs for this military judgment---that it won't work. Islamic doctrine allows for retreat and patience, to a point, in the face of insuperable odds.
A Muslim who reads the texts that count as holy writ in his community will read of the sword, of conversion by the sword, of forcing captured women into marriage even though they be married already and are unwilling, of pillage and slavery. Of the death penalty for apostasy, for adultery. Of the obligation to pursue conversion, or failing that, conquest and in its wake, conversion, by all possible means at every opportunity.
If he has moral objections to any of that, he had best keep silent, for dissent is apostasy. There must be untold Muslims who are desperately unhappy with the fact that their texts demand such things. But this is private distress, not Islamic policy.
I don't propose to rescind the right of a Muslim to teach his doctrine and invite others into it, but I find it regrettable that the doctrine has any appeal. Should it somehow catch on, my alternatives and yours would narrow down to forced conversion, death, or dhimmitude.
I think that your understanding of the religion as it happens in the real world is limited. Please don't respond to that with ugly shit happening in theocracies, take into account Muslims living worldwide, in secularish Muslim nations, and non-Muslim nations.
Islam is not one piece or one philosophy.
| 103 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:08:08pm |
re: #90 albusteve
oh no...she represents the entire left, all liberals, progs and donks
that's how it works
Yes, I've noticed.
| 104 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:08:25pm |
| 105 |
Varek Raith Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:08:46pm |
re: #84 lostlakehiker
Funny, I could've said the same thing about just about any religion...
| 106 |
albusteve Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:08:48pm |
re: #101 jamesfirecat
PROZS IZ MADE FAH TAXIN' AN SPENDIN'!
I scroll past that stuff, whatever it is
| 107 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:09:21pm |
re: #101 jamesfirecat
PROZS IZ MADE FAH TAXIN' AN SPENDIN'!
I'm glad you have no problem giving more of your salary to the federal government... you're a good person... oh wait... I forgot... you don't have a job... silly me.
| 108 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:09:31pm |
re: #98 prairiefire
Ya know, I am always hoping for the best in people, and am often disappointed.
Bristol can and will do much better. I just wish she'd go to college and see a little of the world outside her mother's circle of influence.
| 109 |
Varek Raith Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:09:42pm |
re: #104 SanFranciscoZionist
Fuck off, moron.
BUT, YOU BROUGHT THIS UPON YOURSELF!!!
JUST LIKE BUSH VOTERS BROUGHT US WAAARRR!!!
/
| 110 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:09:50pm |
| 111 |
darthstar Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:10:15pm |
re: #18 reine.de.tout
It seems he believes he may have fathered a child with yet someone else.
Tacky, tawdry buncha people.
I was wondering who Trigg's father was.
| 112 |
Four More Tears Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:10:18pm |
re: #109 Varek Raith
It's really hard to take you seriously with that new avatar...
| 114 |
Varek Raith Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:10:37pm |
re: #110 brookly red
ahhh the party of tolerance...
Yep, Gringrich sure is tole...oh, you meant the left.
| 115 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:10:47pm |
re: #107 Walter L. Newton
I'm glad you have no problem giving more of your salary to the federal government... you're a good person... oh wait... I forgot... you don't have a job... silly me.
Have a job interview tomorrow, care to wish me luck?
| 116 |
darthstar Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:10:48pm |
re: #113 Alouette
Everybody's really pissed off today.
Not me...I'm all smiles. Good evening to you.
| 117 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:10:55pm |
re: #107 Walter L. Newton
I'm glad you have no problem giving more of your salary to the federal government... you're a good person... oh wait... I forgot... you don't have a job... silly me.
I have a job. I pay my taxes without whining and beating my chest over the injustice of it. I have no idea what my problem is.
| 118 |
Varek Raith Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:11:27pm |
re: #112 JasonA
It's really hard to take you seriously with that new avatar...
| 119 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:11:36pm |
re: #109 Varek Raith
BUT, YOU BROUGHT THIS UPON YOURSELF!!!
JUST LIKE BUSH VOTERS BROUGHT US WAAARRR!!!
/
What DID I bring on myself? Solar tsunamis? People getting foreclosed on...no, wait, that bubble burst before I had a chance to ruin the whole wide world.
| 120 |
Four More Tears Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:11:51pm |
re: #117 SanFranciscoZionist
I have a job. I pay my taxes without whining and beating my chest over the injustice of it. I have no idea what my problem is.
You're a tranzi prog, no?
/
| 121 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:12:30pm |
Beck finds a new historical figure to attack: Andrew Jackson, who "is where the country went wrong"
Anyone want to bet that the "scholars" he's consulting are from the Birch Society?
| 122 |
Varek Raith Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:12:31pm |
re: #119 SanFranciscoZionist
What DID I bring on myself? Solar tsunamis? People getting foreclosed on...no, wait, that bubble burst before I had a chance to ruin the whole wide world.
THE RAINBOWS IN MAH SPRINKLERS!
| 123 |
Ben G. Hazi Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:12:53pm |
re: #110 brookly red
ahhh the party of tolerance...
I'll tell you to fuck off too...and you won't like what party I'm registered to.
| 124 |
albusteve Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:13:34pm |
re: #111 darthstar
I was wondering who Trigg's father was.
I wasn't...lucky me
this People Magazine stuff sucks
| 125 |
PhillyPretzel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:13:34pm |
re: #121 Killgore Trout
Beck finds a new historical figure to attack: Andrew Jackson, who "is where the country went wrong"
Anyone want to bet that the "scholars" he's consulting are from the Birch Society?
That is an even money bet.
| 126 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:13:39pm |
re: #110 brookly red
ahhh the party of tolerance...
I repeat, fuck you. I'm sick of the waaaah factor. Newsflash, people did not vote for Barack Obama because they thought he was gonna give them free shit.
Now, that 'party of tolerance' is supposed to be your party, or so you delight in telling people, so get off your high horse, and stop acting spiteful.
| 127 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:14:11pm |
re: #117 SanFranciscoZionist
I have a job. I pay my taxes without whining and beating my chest over the injustice of it. I have no idea what my problem is.
Send me one of those really, really good huge SF burritos and I'll tell you what your problem is.
Send me six huge burritos and I'll tell you how to fix the problem.
| 128 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:14:13pm |
re: #121 Killgore Trout
Beck finds a new historical figure to attack: Andrew Jackson, who "is where the country went wrong"
Anyone want to bet that the "scholars" he's consulting are from the Birch Society?
Well he was responsible for the Trail of Tears wasn't he?
But somehow I doubt that is what Beck is angry at him for....
| 129 |
albusteve Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:14:35pm |
| 130 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:15:14pm |
| 131 |
HappyWarrior Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:15:32pm |
re: #121 Killgore Trout
Beck finds a new historical figure to attack: Andrew Jackson, who "is where the country went wrong"
Anyone want to bet that the "scholars" he's consulting are from the Birch Society?
Heh is there any president that he does like. I already know that Teddy Roosevelt, Wilson, FDR, Obama= bad but who's good in Glenn's book heh.
| 132 |
allegro Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:15:34pm |
There are really good burritos in SF? huh. Who knew.
| 133 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:15:38pm |
re: #129 albusteve
everybody is not pissed
Well, I am, but not at any of you, and I'm not going to take it out on you.
Hit a few snags in a Home Improvement project. Gah!
| 134 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:15:51pm |
re: #125 PhillyPretzel
That is an even money bet.
I'd say it's about 80-90% certainty it's a Birch society thing. It might be some sort of dominionist religious thing but I doubt it.
| 135 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:16:02pm |
re: #126 SanFranciscoZionist
I repeat, fuck you. I'm sick of the waaah factor. Newsflash, people did not vote for Barack Obama because they thought he was gonna give them free shit.
Now, that 'party of tolerance' is supposed to be your party, or so you delight in telling people, so get off your high horse, and stop acting spiteful.
Not even "free" health care!?!?!
:)
| 136 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:16:04pm |
re: #121 Killgore Trout
Beck finds a new historical figure to attack: Andrew Jackson, who "is where the country went wrong"
Anyone want to bet that the "scholars" he's consulting are from the Birch Society?
Well, apparently race relations went wrong with the Civil War, and the country went wrong with Jackson...I think we're sort of homing in on the nineteenth century as the time when things went to hell in a handbasket.
| 137 |
Varek Raith Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:16:12pm |
re: #131 HappyWarrior
Heh is there any president that he does like. I already know that Teddy Roosevelt, Wilson, FDR, Obama= bad but who's good in Glenn's book heh.
Reagan, God-Emperor of America.
| 138 |
Ben G. Hazi Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:16:14pm |
re: #126 SanFranciscoZionist
I repeat, fuck you. I'm sick of the waaah factor. Newsflash, people did not vote for Barack Obama because they thought he was gonna give them free shit.
Now, that 'party of tolerance' is supposed to be your party, or so you delight in telling people, so get off your high horse, and stop acting spiteful.
Amen!
| 139 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:16:15pm |
re: #126 SanFranciscoZionist
I repeat, fuck you. I'm sick of the waaah factor. Newsflash, people did not vote for Barack Obama because they thought he was gonna give them free shit.
Now, that 'party of tolerance' is supposed to be your party, or so you delight in telling people, so get off your high horse, and stop acting spiteful.
me spiteful? hey it was you who told me to fuck off and called me moron... it is what it is madame. care you to dig further?
| 140 |
Four More Tears Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:16:23pm |
re: #130 SanFranciscoZionist
I thought we were all unemployed! Damnit.
Wait... can you collect unemployment checks while you still have a job? Certainly we lazy good-for-nothings have figured out a way to pull that one off by now.
| 141 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:16:35pm |
re: #131 HappyWarrior
Heh is there any president that he does like. I already know that Teddy Roosevelt, Wilson, FDR, Obama= bad but who's good in Glenn's book heh.
You forgot Woodrow Wilson I think Beck ranted on him also.
| 142 |
albusteve Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:16:49pm |
re: #128 jamesfirecat
Well he was responsible for the Trail of Tears wasn't he?
But somehow I doubt that is what Beck is angry at him for...
a cruel and needless chapter in our history...and worse, it set a precedent for events to follow...Jackson failed bad on that one
| 143 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:17:04pm |
re: #132 allegro
There are really good burritos in SF? huh. Who knew.
Oh yeah. I saw a show on the Travel Channel.
Burritos from heaven. I forget the district, though. Apparently, they are quite famous.
| 144 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:17:04pm |
Yay, more cuts in AC Transit service! Woo hoo!!
| 145 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:17:08pm |
re: #131 HappyWarrior
Heh is there any president that he does like. I already know that Teddy Roosevelt, Wilson, FDR, Obama= bad but who's good in Glenn's book heh.
That's the Birch Society for you. They hate pretty much all of the Presidents with the exception of Taft and maybe one or two others.
| 146 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:17:15pm |
Somebody needs to pass out the popsicles. Calm everybody down a bit.
Not me. I'm sick of people (read: my children) dropping the wrappers gooeyy-side down on my floor.
| 147 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:17:44pm |
re: #133 EmmmieG
Well, I am, but not at any of you, and I'm not going to take it out on you.
Hit a few snags in a Home Improvement project. Gah!
Go to Home Depot
"You can do it,, We can help"
Yeah,,,well where where you when I schlepping sheets of drywall up to the second floor and whacking my thumb with a hammer, orange vest boy !?!?!
/
| 148 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:17:48pm |
re: #132 allegro
There are really good burritos in SF? huh. Who knew.
Damn straight! No pun intended.
| 149 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:17:56pm |
re: #131 HappyWarrior
Heh is there any president that he does like. I already know that Teddy Roosevelt, Wilson, FDR, Obama= bad but who's good in Glenn's book heh.
I think the fringe weirdos still like Calvin Coolidge, and their version of Reagan, but it changes day by day, and I'm not putting money on anything.
I know the really fringe weirdos have abandoned Lincoln, but I don't know where Beck stands on that.
| 150 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:18:27pm |
re: #132 allegro
There are really good burritos in SF? huh. Who knew.
Personally, I'm a Gordo's girl, but lots of people swear by the Tacqueria Can-Cun on Valencia.
| 151 |
HappyWarrior Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:18:32pm |
re: #141 jamesfirecat
You forgot Woodrow Wilson I think Beck ranted on him also.
Heh that's the Wilson I referred to. You know who I hear that people like him do like though is Grover Cleveland. I hear Cleveland was actually fairly honest but I have no respect for a guy who dodged the draft and paid for a replacement during the Civil War and then denied Civil War vets a pension.
| 152 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:18:58pm |
| 154 |
darthstar Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:19:05pm |
re: #132 allegro
There are really good burritos in SF? huh. Who knew.
La Corneta in Glenn Park (near the Glenn Park Bart Station)...best Taqueria in town. Go for the Steak & Prawn, or just Prawn burrito. Or if you're feeling really dangerous, the Chile Relleno burrito (a breaded, stuffed with cheese pepper wrapped into a burrito...HEAVEN!!!).
| 155 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:19:21pm |
re: #129 albusteve
everybody is not pissed
Fuck you!
No, fuck you!
Fuck you sideways!
Fuck you in the nose!
Either people are pissed or they're really, really horny.
| 156 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:19:22pm |
re: #150 SanFranciscoZionist
Personally, I'm a Gordo's girl, but lots of people swear by the Tacqueria Can-Cun on Valencia.
There's on on Market too. They do something wicked delicious to the pork.
| 157 |
darthstar Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:19:42pm |
re: #155 Alouette
Fuck you!
No, fuck you!
Fuck you sideways!
Fuck you in the nose!Either people are pissed or they're really, really horny.
And kinky too!
| 158 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:19:50pm |
re: #147 sattv4u2
Go to Home Depot
"You can do it,, We can help"
Yeah,,,well where where you when I schlepping sheets of drywall up to the second floor and whacking my thumb with a hammer, orange vest boy !?!?!
/
Home Depot is the problem. I stripped most of the bathroom cabinets with a product that seemed to work okay, then I ran out and went to HD for more. Problem: I went to Ace's for the first round. Product #2 is the same company as #1, but not the same stuff. I don't feel I should mix chemicals, so now I have to finish the job with #2, which I don't like as much.
| 159 |
Four More Tears Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:19:50pm |
re: #155 Alouette
Fuck you!
No, fuck you!
Fuck you sideways!
Fuck you in the nose!Either people are pissed or they're really, really horny.
I'm not pissed...
| 160 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:20:12pm |
re: #155 Alouette
Fuck you!
No, fuck you!
Fuck you sideways!
Fuck you in the nose!Either people are pissed or they're really, really horny.
sometimes it is the same thing...
| 161 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:20:17pm |
| 162 |
darthstar Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:20:46pm |
re: #161 Alouette
Fuck stampeding cattle through the Vatican!
That's not as easy as it looks on paper, by the way.
| 163 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:20:52pm |
| 164 |
albusteve Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:21:02pm |
re: #143 researchok
Oh yeah. I saw a show on the Travel Channel.
Burritos from heaven. I forget the district, though. Apparently, they are quite famous.
I saw that...some sort of New Age wrap....not really a burrito in the NM sense...a burrito is a simple gig with little variation, unless your market is a bunch of food snobs
| 165 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:21:22pm |
re: #139 brookly red
me spiteful? hey it was you who told me to fuck off and called me moron... it is what it is madame. care you to dig further?
Further into what? Your fantasies about Obama voters, or who hit first?
| 166 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:21:42pm |
re: #141 jamesfirecat
You forgot Woodrow Wilson I think Beck ranted on him also.
How do they feel about Hoover?
| 167 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:21:59pm |
Good evening all!
Wow. Cato has left the building, eh? Anything in particular or just everything in general?
I'll miss him.
| 168 |
allegro Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:22:00pm |
I shoulda knowed. SF has about the best food of any kind in the world. I've never had the chance to spend enough time there at once to try but a small sampling. I'll know where to go for a great burrito next time. :)
| 169 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:22:02pm |
re: #143 researchok
Oh yeah. I saw a show on the Travel Channel.
Burritos from heaven. I forget the district, though. Apparently, they are quite famous.
Most of the supergood places are in the Mission.
| 170 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:22:26pm |
re: #164 albusteve
I saw that...some sort of New Age wrap...not really a burrito in the NM sense...a burrito is a simple gig with little variation, unless your market is a bunch of food snobs
Taqueria La Cumbre in the SF Mission District.
SFZ is pointedly ignoring me. Maybe she just won't share.
| 171 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:22:50pm |
| 172 |
b_Snark Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:23:11pm |
STOP IT!
Everybody take a deep breath, count to 100 and calm down.
| 173 |
HappyWarrior Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:23:16pm |
re: #166 SanFranciscoZionist
How do they feel about Hoover?
I imagine like they do Teddy Roosevelt. Hoover was more of a Progressive Republican than he was a Coolidge style one from my understanding.
| 174 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:23:17pm |
re: #144 eclectic infidel
Yay, more cuts in AC Transit service! Woo hoo!!
Oh, GREAT. Hubby is gonna have to BART to his temp gig tomorrow.
I haven't even looked closely enough into the dispute to take sides, I just want them to fix it. The union is starting to put up really tetchy flyers.
| 175 |
albusteve Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:23:31pm |
| 176 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:23:35pm |
How does the Birch society feel about Martin Van Buren? Just wondering.
(One of the few presidents who did not speak English in his home.)
| 177 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:23:39pm |
re: #165 SanFranciscoZionist
Further into what? Your fantasies about Obama voters, or who hit first?
you need to reconsider your anger madame... no maybe not need to, but it would prudent to do so.
| 179 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:23:45pm |
re: #169 SanFranciscoZionist
Most of the supergood places are in the Mission.
OK, my fees are higher for SF residents.
12 burritos- in advance. Per session.
| 180 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:23:46pm |
re: #145 Killgore Trout
That's the Birch Society for you. They hate pretty much all of the Presidents with the exception of Taft and maybe one or two others.
Taft. So far no one has attacked Taft.
Except for the people who mock his weight.
| 181 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:23:52pm |
re: #137 Varek Raith
Reagan, God-Emperor of America.
Adeptus Reaganatus!
Me and my brother actually did a whole riff on this last Spring Break...
Newt Gingrich would be the chapter Liberian.
Glen Beck would be a Gray Knight (clearly the 666 Rites of Emperor left him a bit unhinged)
Sarah Palin is a sister of Battle.
Ted Stevens is a Tech Marine. (SERIES OF TUBES!)
Strom Thurmond's withered remains fight on in a Dreadnought.
They communicate over "Fox Casters"
Arnold is of course a TERMINATOR armored marine.
Stephen Colbert is a Standard Bearer with the flag of Adeptus Reagen on one side and Liberty Divided (Donkey with eight pointed start growing from it) on the other.
The Adeptus Reagen flag itself is an Aquila with RR stitched on it.
John Yu is an inquisitor....
| 182 |
darthstar Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:24:00pm |
re: #171 sattv4u2
I prefer my Dyson and Orecks!
We got the Dyson "Animal"...great fuckin' vacuum. The thing totally sucks.
| 183 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:24:33pm |
re: #172 b_sharp
STOP IT!
Everybody take a deep breath, count to 100 and calm down.
And hold it for about 20 minutes.... bahahahahahahahahaha
| 184 |
Stanghazi Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:25:19pm |
re: #177 brookly red
you need to reconsider your anger madame... no maybe not need to, but it would prudent to do so.
Brookly, you are too much. Stir the turd, that's our Brookly, that's all he does.
| 185 |
darthstar Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:25:39pm |
re: #167 austin_blue
Good evening all!
Wow. Cato has left the building, eh? Anything in particular or just everything in general?
I'll miss him.
He'll be back.
| 186 |
HappyWarrior Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:26:19pm |
Taft I think would be hated by some on the right now due to the fact he openly doubted the divinity of Christ. He also from my understanding had more trust busts than the Teddy Roosevelt admin.
| 187 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:26:19pm |
re: #172 b_sharp
STOP IT!
Everybody take a deep breath, count to 100 and calm down.
/96... 97... "turns and sucka punches b_ sharp" 98... 99
| 188 |
albusteve Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:26:29pm |
re: #184 Stanley Sea
Brookly, you are too much. Stir the turd, that's our Brookly, that's all he does.
pile on...that's all you do, stir the turd
| 190 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:27:26pm |
re: #170 researchok
Taqueria La Cumbre in the SF Mission District.
SFZ is pointedly ignoring me. Maybe she just won't share.
Hey, I mentioned Gordos and Can-Cun!!!!
There's also a place down in the Sunset that my husband and I used to go to for these bizarre oversized burritos they smothered in enchilada sauce. It was basically everything you needed for a coronary in a styrofoam box, with some carbs. We would get these things and eat them in front of the TV. I don't know if I'd call them good, but addicting.
| 191 |
Targetpractice Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:27:58pm |
What is with all this negative energy today? Come on folks, repeat after me: Woosah! Woosah!
| 192 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:28:18pm |
re: #177 brookly red
you need to reconsider your anger madame... no maybe not need to, but it would prudent to do so.
Prudent?
| 193 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:28:29pm |
re: #184 Stanley Sea
Brookly, you are too much. Stir the turd, that's our Brookly, that's all he does.
and you wonder why Cato jumped... bunch of sick fucks we done got here.
| 194 |
Stanghazi Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:28:42pm |
re: #188 albusteve
pile on...that's all you do, stir the turd
Hmmm, I get on the thread and see Brookly being an ass to SFZ. Wonder how I'll react?
Go ahead and support him, he needs it.
| 195 |
Ben G. Hazi Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:29:15pm |
re: #65 brookly red
I can so see where he is coming from...
Don't use Cato's departure (so long, you old Roman...) as an excuse to slide a veiled "but..but...LGF has changed!" jibe in. It's tacky and low-class...
| 197 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:29:28pm |
re: #185 darthstar
He'll be back.
Hope so. He was building up steam last night when I went to bed. Did things get worse on the Israel thread? I missed that. Had my eyes dilated.
| 198 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:29:32pm |
| 199 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:29:39pm |
re: #195 talon_262
Don't use Cato's departure (so long, you old Roman...) as an excuse to slide a veiled "but..but...LGF has changed!" jibe in. It's tacky and low-class...
yo mama
| 200 |
darthstar Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:30:33pm |
re: #191 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
What is with all this negative energy today? Come on folks, repeat after me: Woosah! Woosah!
People just need to look up for some inspiration...
| 201 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:30:35pm |
re: #190 SanFranciscoZionist
Hey, I mentioned Gordos and Can-Cun!!!
There's also a place down in the Sunset that my husband and I used to go to for these bizarre oversized burritos they smothered in enchilada sauce. It was basically everything you needed for a coronary in a styrofoam box, with some carbs. We would get these things and eat them in front of the TV. I don't know if I'd call them good, but addicting.
Damn. All I can get here in Raleigh is cornbread. Everyone says they like cornbread, but they really don't.
Yeah, breakfast of grits and cornbread. Like I'm gonna pay for that.
| 202 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:31:12pm |
For those who like crepes, there's the Crepevine at 216 Church St in San Francisco. And I know there's a burrito place across the street but the name escapes me at the moment.
I might be wrong.
But the Can-Cun is excellent. Try the pork tacos.
| 203 |
Stonemason Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:31:20pm |
re: #190 SanFranciscoZionist
Hey, I mentioned Gordos and Can-Cun!!!
There's also a place down in the Sunset that my husband and I used to go to for these bizarre oversized burritos they smothered in enchilada sauce. It was basically everything you needed for a coronary in a styrofoam box, with some carbs. We would get these things and eat them in front of the TV. I don't know if I'd call them good, but addicting.
My wife makes those...encharitos she calls them...mmmmm...
| 204 |
albusteve Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:31:26pm |
re: #194 Stanley Sea
Hmmm, I get on the thread and see Brookly being an ass to SFZ. Wonder how I'll react?
Go ahead and support him, he needs it.
nice twist...doesn't work
maybe you should read the thread before you automatically "support" people...sometime keeping your mouth shut is best and let others do what they need to
| 205 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:31:52pm |
hey I am gonna go get some Chinese take out... hope y'all get your issues sorted out.
| 206 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:32:10pm |
And also in the Castro is Orphan Andy's. Diner food that serves breakfast all day long.
SFZ can attest.
| 207 |
allegro Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:32:15pm |
re: #201 researchok
Damn. All I can get here in Raleigh is cornbread. Everyone says they like cornbread, but they really don't.
Few things beat a good jalapeno cornbread with a succulent bowl of chili.
Grits blow, however.
| 208 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:32:27pm |
re: #205 brookly red
hey I am gonna go get some Chinese take out... hope y'all get your issues sorted out.
Forget Chinese. Get a burrito.
| 209 |
albusteve Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:32:58pm |
re: #195 talon_262
Don't use Cato's departure (so long, you old Roman...) as an excuse to slide a veiled "but..but...LGF has changed!" jibe in. It's tacky and low-class...
it has...what's tacky and low class about that factoid?...calling people that for stating the obvious might be tacky and low class
| 210 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:33:43pm |
re: #201 researchok
Damn. All I can get here in Raleigh is cornbread. Everyone says they like cornbread, but they really don't.
Yeah, breakfast of grits and cornbread. Like I'm gonna pay for that.
My husband likes cornbread. Thank God they make it at the Safeway, because I got sick of messing with iron skillets and the oven temperature, and the bubbles and such.
| 211 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:33:52pm |
re: #207 allegro
Few things beat a good jalapeno cornbread with a succulent bowl of chili.
Grits blow, however.
Chili, I'm good. Cornbread, not so much. I actually have chili with fresh tortillas, made not too far from me.
| 212 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:34:01pm |
re: #193 brookly red
and you wonder why Cato jumped... bunch of sick fucks we done got here.
///No wonder you fit in so well!
(Not intended as an insult, but come on, you just left yourself wide open to it)
| 213 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:34:13pm |
re: #207 allegro
Few things beat a good jalapeno cornbread with a succulent bowl of chili.
Grits blow, however.
Ah, homemade grits are the best. I discovered grits ten years ago, courtesy of my ex. Found 'em to be a nice alternative to sauteed potatoes on the side with eggs and bacon.
| 214 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:34:23pm |
re: #202 eclectic infidel
For those who like crepes, there's the Crepevine at 216 Church St in San Francisco. And I know there's a burrito place across the street but the name escapes me at the moment.
I might be wrong.
But the Can-Cun is excellent. Try the pork tacos.
Just go down to Sixteenth and Market and look around. There will be about seventeen tacquerias in your line of sight. Pick one. Odds are it will be good.
| 215 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:34:54pm |
| 216 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:35:14pm |
If you don't have a valid point to make and resort to ad hominem attacks, maybe it's best not to hit the "post this comment". Argue the point at hand. Don't attack the poster of the original point. And while your here, learn these fallacies of debate and don't use them:
Absurdity · Accident · Ad nauseam · Argument from ignorance · Argument from silence · Argument to moderation · Argumentum ad populum · Base rate · Compound question · Evidence of absence · Invincible ignorance · Loaded question · Moralistic · Naturalistic · Non sequitur · Proof by assertion · Irrelevant conclusion · Special pleading · Straw man · Tu quoque -Two wrongs make a right
Just sayin'.
| 217 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:35:17pm |
re: #206 eclectic infidel
And also in the Castro is Orphan Andy's. Diner food that serves breakfast all day long.
SFZ can attest.
Tasty diner food, great staff.
| 218 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:35:19pm |
re: #214 SanFranciscoZionist
Just go down to Sixteenth and Market and look around. There will be about seventeen tacquerias in your line of sight. Pick one. Odds are it will be good.
I lived in Alhambra California for a short while, a decade and a half ago.
The standard for Chinese food was excellence in that town.
| 219 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:36:03pm |
re: #210 SanFranciscoZionist
My husband likes cornbread. Thank God they make it at the Safeway, because I got sick of messing with iron skillets and the oven temperature, and the bubbles and such.
I've lived here for a while now. I just can't get into cornbread. The slaw and beans however, are outstanding. We have a place here that makes the beans with brisket burnt ends.
A work of art.
| 220 |
allegro Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:36:06pm |
re: #213 eclectic infidel
Ah, homemade grits are the best. I discovered grits ten years ago, courtesy of my ex. Found 'em to be a nice alternative to sauteed potatoes on the side with eggs and bacon.
When I first moved to Texas from Chicago, I worked in a breakfast joint waiting tables while in grad school. I kept wondering why they put Cream o' Wheat on all the plates. Boy, did I feel dumb...
| 221 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:36:24pm |
| 222 |
wrenchwench Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:36:38pm |
Image: funny-pictures-cat-comforts-dog.jpg
See y'all tomorrow, except maybe Cato, who I actually like a lot, when he's not being a jerk, and I hope he comes back.
| 223 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:36:41pm |
re: #213 eclectic infidel
Ah, homemade grits are the best. I discovered grits ten years ago, courtesy of my ex. Found 'em to be a nice alternative to sauteed potatoes on the side with eggs and bacon.
My grandmother used to make grits. I can't say I remember them fondly, but I do remember them. My grandmother really didn't see the point of food, mostly.
| 224 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:36:42pm |
re: #214 SanFranciscoZionist
Just go down to Sixteenth and Market and look around. There will be about seventeen tacquerias in your line of sight. Pick one. Odds are it will be good.
Oh, no doubt. I love the Mission district that way. Choices up the wazoo - Mexican, Halal, hole in the walls, etc. I admit I am particular when it comes to taco houses. I find a good one, I keep going back.
| 225 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:37:22pm |
re: #218 EmmmieG
I lived in Alhambra California for a short while, a decade and a half ago.
The standard for Chinese food was excellence in that town.
My parents went to high school there. Met there, actually.
| 226 |
Jetpilot1101 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:38:07pm |
Well, I am sad to see Cato leave the building. I didn't always agree with him but I appreciated his posts and learned a lot from his musings. Isn't that what life is all about; taking in the big picture, learning from every experience (and every intelligent poster) and develoing a clear and rational view of life.
| 227 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:38:45pm |
re: #220 allegro
When I first moved to Texas from Chicago, I worked in a breakfast joint waiting tables while in grad school. I kept wondering why they put Cream o' Wheat on all the plates. Boy, did I feel dumb...
It's visually identical. I once spent five minutes, jet lagged out of my mind, trying to get a bowl of Cream of Wheat from a woman in the Dallas airport who said there was no Cream of Wheat, even though I could SEE the Cream of Wheat.
Finally, I pointed, and she said, gently, "Those are grits, honey."
So I took some and I ate them.
| 228 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:38:58pm |
re: #197 SanFranciscoZionist
Hope so. He was building up steam last night when I went to bed. Did things get worse on the Israel thread? I missed that. Had my eyes dilated.
Cato got fed up with a certain Lizard who likes to season his silly anti-Israel comments with stupid little emoticons.
Not worth flouncing over, IMO.
| 229 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:39:19pm |
re: #220 allegro
When I first moved to Texas from Chicago, I worked in a breakfast joint waiting tables while in grad school. I kept wondering why they put Cream o' Wheat on all the plates. Boy, did I feel dumb...
Did you ask that out loud or did you figure it out one day?
| 230 |
allegro Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:39:41pm |
re: #227 SanFranciscoZionist
It's visually identical. I once spent five minutes, jet lagged out of my mind, trying to get a bowl of Cream of Wheat from a woman in the Dallas airport who said there was no Cream of Wheat, even though I could SEE the Cream of Wheat.
Finally, I pointed, and she said, gently, "Those are grits, honey."
So I took some and I ate them.
| 231 |
albusteve Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:39:52pm |
re: #226 Jetpilot1101
Well, I am sad to see Cato leave the building. I didn't always agree with him but I appreciated his posts and learned a lot from his musings. Isn't that what life is all about; taking in the big picture, learning from every experience (and every intelligent poster) and develoing a clear and rational view of life.
the stupidity and willful ignorance grinds his ass....surf the last thread for a perfect example
| 232 |
allegro Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:40:07pm |
Oops. Quote fail.
I was going to thank you for that. Now it know it wasn't just me.
| 234 |
albusteve Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:40:48pm |
re: #228 Alouette
Cato got fed up with a certain Lizard who likes to season his silly anti-Israel comments with stupid little emoticons.
Not worth flouncing over, IMO.
he didn't flounce...he bowed out gracefully
| 235 |
prairiefire Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:40:52pm |
re: #92 brookly red
don't bait me you helped bring this to be...
What sort of fantasy world are you living in, brookly?
| 236 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:41:10pm |
| 237 |
goddamnedfrank Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:41:12pm |
I think that the 805 marks the neutral zone for California coast restaurant quality. As you head north towards San Francisco things get much, much better, as you move south towards LA your best options are going to be bought off a truck. What's up with that?
| 238 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:41:22pm |
re: #234 albusteve
he didn't flounce...he bowed out gracefully
Honest opinion, you think he's gone for good?
| 239 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:41:33pm |
re: #228 Alouette
Cato got fed up with a certain Lizard who likes to season his silly anti-Israel comments with stupid little emoticons.
Not worth flouncing over, IMO.
I find that particular lizard's behavior on LGF to be very annoying. I have trained myself to overlook the nonsense. It's no easy task.
| 240 |
TheMatrix31 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:42:41pm |
People didn't vote for Obama because they thought he was gonna give them free shit?
LOL. Okay.
| 241 |
albusteve Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:43:07pm |
re: #238 McSpiff
Honest opinion, you think he's gone for good?
not sure....he can be unpredictable, like the rest of us I guess
| 242 |
Four More Tears Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:43:20pm |
re: #240 TheMatrix31
Please follow in Cato's footsteps.
| 243 |
allegro Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:43:30pm |
re: #229 eclectic infidel
Did you ask that out loud or did you figure it out one day?
Oh hell, I finally asked about the Cream o' Wheat. When the laughter died down, someone told me what it was.
| 245 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:43:53pm |
re: #240 TheMatrix31
People didn't vote for Obama because they thought he was gonna give them free shit?
LOL. Okay.
You know what's another good way to say "gonna give them free shit" or at least "shit for free"
Tax cuts that you don't pay for....
| 246 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:44:23pm |
re: #240 TheMatrix31
People didn't vote for Obama because they thought he was gonna give them free shit?
LOL. Okay.
Boy, you have a real positive view of your fellow Americans, don't you? Why did they vote for Bush twice? Was he offering better free stuff?
| 247 |
albusteve Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:45:13pm |
re: #238 McSpiff
Honest opinion, you think he's gone for good?
and as for you....you stood your ground with no snark or other bullshit...it's not always what you know, it's how you behave in many cases...
gonna go check out some hot rods...bbl
| 248 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:45:26pm |
re: #243 allegro
Oh hell, I finally asked about the Cream o' Wheat. When the laughter died down, someone told me what it was.
Admittedly, had my ex never introduced me to grits, I would have never bothered to investigate on my own.
| 249 |
TheMatrix31 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:45:31pm |
re: #246 SanFranciscoZionist
I don't have a positive view of people in general, clearly.
Sorry, all the Obama Stash, Lady-In-Denver crap leads me to believe that MANY people voted for him solely for that reason.
Whatever.
| 250 |
Four More Tears Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:45:46pm |
re: #246 SanFranciscoZionist
Boy, you have a real positive view of your fellow Americans, don't you? Why did they vote for Bush twice? Was he offering better free stuff?
I happen to remember at least a couple of stimulus checks under Bush...
| 251 |
HappyWarrior Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:46:08pm |
re: #245 jamesfirecat
You know what's another good way to say "gonna give them free shit" or at least "shit for free"
Tax cuts that you don't pay for...
Heh good catch.
| 252 |
albusteve Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:46:23pm |
re: #242 JasonA
Please follow in Cato's footsteps.
and then fall in line yourself....your jerkness is spent
| 253 |
prairiefire Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:46:28pm |
re: #146 EmmmieG
Somebody needs to pass out the popsicles. Calm everybody down a bit.
Not me. I'm sick of people (read: my children) dropping the wrappers gooeyy-side down on my floor.
I have been on my daughter about abusing her 5 year younger brother for weeks. This morning, screams from him, "what are you doing to him?', "trying to stuff him in the closet."
Restrictions have followed
| 254 |
Jetpilot1101 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:47:35pm |
re: #231 albusteve
the stupidity and willful ignorance grinds his ass...surf the last thread for a perfect example
Didn't take long to spot the buffoon. Thanks for sending me over there. Wonder why the Karma is so high with that moron?
| 255 |
prairiefire Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:47:38pm |
re: #246 SanFranciscoZionist
Boy, you have a real positive view of your fellow Americans, don't you? Why did they vote for Bush twice? Was he offering better free stuff?
He was offering free war.
| 256 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:47:38pm |
re: #239 eclectic infidel
I think LGF has taken on an influx of newer, younger blood. I make no secret about my age (22) so I'm speaking about myself here to a certain degree... I think we're seeing a bit of a cultural shift here that goes beyond the normal left-right thing we've been seeing. Yes, younger people tend to go more left wing in general (post counter examples to prove I'm wrong...now) but we also have a different set of life experiences, different goals for the most part (ask me about owning my own home...) and probably a different way of expressing ourselves. I grew up with emoticons. They seem like a normal aspect of online speech to me, used to crudely fill in some of the information lost when we stopped having tone and body language to look to.
I don't think either side of this is right or wrong, and I hope to see that we can all adjust, learn and teach and generally widening each others world views.
Or we can rip each others throats out. Whatever works.
| 257 |
Four More Tears Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:47:40pm |
re: #252 albusteve
and then fall in line yourself...your jerkness is spent
I have the equivalent of an American Express Black card in jerkness. And that really wasn't meant as a knock against Cato, in case you took it that way.
| 258 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:47:59pm |
re: #253 prairiefire
I have been on my daughter about abusing her 5 year younger brother for weeks. This morning, screams from him, "what are you doing to him?', "trying to stuff him in the closet."
Restrictions have followed
Are you ready for summer to end?
| 259 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:48:12pm |
re: #247 albusteve
and as for you...you stood your ground with no snark or other bullshit...it's not always what you know, it's how you behave in many cases...
gonna go check out some hot rods...bbl
We're cool?
| 260 |
prairiefire Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:48:26pm |
| 261 |
goddamnedfrank Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:50:04pm |
re: #249 TheMatrix31
Sorry, all the Obama Stash, Lady-In-Denver crap leads me to believe that MANY people voted for him solely for that reason.
If it wasn't based on some cryptic, specious, rock-stupid anecdote, it wouldn't belong to TheMatrix31.
| 263 |
TheMatrix31 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:50:09pm |
re: #255 prairiefire
War is never free. The price we pay for our freedom is regrettably necessary. God bless our men and women, and God bless those in charge of leading our country.
| 264 |
Stanghazi Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:50:18pm |
re: #249 TheMatrix31
I don't have a positive view of people in general, clearly.
Sorry, all the Obama Stash, Lady-In-Denver crap leads me to believe that MANY people voted for him solely for that reason.Whatever.
Give up the social/political blogs. It will be better for you and those affected.
| 266 |
darthstar Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:51:25pm |
re: #234 albusteve
he didn't flounce...he bowed out
gracefullypassive-aggressively
ftfy...not that it makes any difference. He's "bowed out" before...and any time someone gets that wrapped up in a blog, it's probably a good time for a break anyway.
| 267 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:51:44pm |
re: #256 McSpiff
When you speak of political differences, your points merit discussion.
Nevertheless, issues of right and wrong, morality and ethics are not age differentiated.
Ever.
| 268 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:51:51pm |
re: #263 TheMatrix31
War is never free. The price we pay for our freedom is regrettably necessary. God bless our men and women, and God bless those in charge of leading our country.
"The Price we pay for our freedom is regrettably necessary"
So we should raise taxes to make sure we don't burden future generations with it?
| 269 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:52:04pm |
have to go and make dinner for the popsicle-wrapper droppers.
SFZ--have you seen this...
| 270 |
Stonemason Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:52:57pm |
re: #245 jamesfirecat
You know what's another good way to say "gonna give them free shit" or at least "shit for free"
Tax cuts that you don't pay for...
If you had said 'tax cuts you don't follow with entitlement cuts' I would've agreed with you, but what is this stuff about 'paying' for tax cuts? Is that so dems don't have to pay for the stuff going on now?
Really...letting me (and all Americans that paid taxes) to keep more of our own money is a bad thing? And needs to be 'paid for'? No, our taxes pay for things, the taxes we pay for everything we buy, everything we do, pays for things. The Government pays for nothing, we, the citizens do (okay, for the past 10 years or so the Chinese have paid for quite a bit of it).
Say what you mean, don't regurgitate talking points. President Bush and the Republican Congress spent way to much freakin' money and now President Obama and the Democrat Congress is making them look like pikers.
Look, I have no problem with you ripping President Bush for his spending, but try to use the right terms.
| 271 |
TheMatrix31 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:53:04pm |
re: #268 jamesfirecat
If its one thing I don't mind paying for, it's the fight.
| 272 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:53:07pm |
re: #256 McSpiff
I think LGF has taken on an influx of newer, younger blood. I make no secret about my age (22) so I'm speaking about myself here to a certain degree... I think we're seeing a bit of a cultural shift here that goes beyond the normal left-right thing we've been seeing. Yes, younger people tend to go more left wing in general (post counter examples to prove I'm wrong...now) but we also have a different set of life experiences, different goals for the most part (ask me about owning my own home...) and probably a different way of expressing ourselves. I grew up with emoticons. They seem like a normal aspect of online speech to me, used to crudely fill in some of the information lost when we stopped having tone and body language to look to.
I don't think either side of this is right or wrong, and I hope to see that we can all adjust, learn and teach and generally widening each others world views.
Or we can rip each others throats out. Whatever works.
I'm 57 years old, and I have to agree, I think we're seeing a bit of a cultural shift here that goes beyond the normal left-right thing we've been seeing... and in my culture... we rip throats out. It's beats the shit out of those silly girly-man, passive-aggressive emoticons... tiptoeing around trying not to break eggs.
| 273 |
PhillyPretzel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:53:08pm |
re: #6 Killgore Trout
Update: Solar storm in the forecast; celestial light shows expected
Here are the pictures of that show from Yahoo.
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]
| 274 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:53:17pm |
re: #267 researchok
When you speak of political differences, your points merit discussion.
Nevertheless, issues of right and wrong, morality and ethics are not age differentiated.
Ever.
Sure they are. I was taught from day 1 that homosexuality was totally acceptable, same with most of my peers. To me, gay marriage is an inventiable, inalienable right. How many people 30 or 40 years older than me can say the same thing?
| 275 |
bratwurst Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:53:37pm |
Oh well...at least there is good news on the "war on obesity" front.
Oh wait...did I say GOOD news? I meant BAD news:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 276 |
prairiefire Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:54:16pm |
re: #263 TheMatrix31
President Obama put the wars initiated by President Bush on the actual budget books, now the wingers cry about the deficit.
Don't wrap yourself in the flag, or the likes of our brave servicemen and women, Matrix. It does not become you.
| 277 |
b_Snark Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:54:50pm |
re: #267 researchok
When you speak of political differences, your points merit discussion.
Nevertheless, issues of right and wrong, morality and ethics are not age differentiated.
Ever.
Morality changes over time as a society evolves, so yes morality can be and is age differentiated.
| 278 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:55:01pm |
re: #272 Walter L. Newton
I'm 57 years old, and I have to agree, I think we're seeing a bit of a cultural shift here that goes beyond the normal left-right thing we've been seeing... and in my culture... we rip throats out. It's beats the shit out of those silly girly-man, passive-aggressive emoticons... tiptoeing around trying not to break eggs.
I think I screamed enough "fuck you"s last thread that at the very least I can't be accused of tiptoeing to avoid offending people. But I'll take your post as being generally in agreement.
| 279 |
TheMatrix31 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:55:10pm |
re: #276 prairiefire
How much of that deficit is due to the wars?
| 280 |
Ojoe Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:55:53pm |
OT
Here we go with yet more motherfucking morons proposing idiotic ideas, in this case changing the Constitution so we wold have nobility in this country, a hereditary class with advantages because they were born here before a certain date:
Leading Republicans Push for Review of Birthright Citizenship
Excuse me while I hock a massive, thick lugie thru the window and onto the floor of the main office of the RNC:
Hhaaaakkk
Pithhhhoooowii.
That one is from Ojoe
| 281 |
allegro Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:55:57pm |
re: #274 McSpiff
To me, gay marriage is an inventiable, inalienable right. How many people 30 or 40 years older than me can say the same thing?
*raising my hand*
| 282 |
b_Snark Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:56:25pm |
re: #272 Walter L. Newton
I'm 57 years old, and I have to agree, I think we're seeing a bit of a cultural shift here that goes beyond the normal left-right thing we've been seeing... and in my culture... we rip throats out. It's beats the shit out of those silly girly-man, passive-aggressive emoticons... tiptoeing around trying not to break eggs.
Then we have to be ready and willing to clean the mess up after.
| 283 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:56:33pm |
re: #269 EmmmieG
have to go and make dinner for the popsicle-wrapper droppers.
SFZ--have you seen this...
[Video]
Oh yeah, that's a keeper.
| 284 |
Kragar Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:56:43pm |
Every generation says they're idealists who've learned the lessons of the past.
| 285 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:56:43pm |
re: #281 allegro
*raising my hand*
Sorry, I phrased that poorly. How many people were taught that was more what I was going for.
| 286 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:56:53pm |
re: #270 Stonemason
If you had said 'tax cuts you don't follow with entitlement cuts' I would've agreed with you, but what is this stuff about 'paying' for tax cuts? Is that so dems don't have to pay for the stuff going on now?
Really...letting me (and all Americans that paid taxes) to keep more of our own money is a bad thing? And needs to be 'paid for'? No, our taxes pay for things, the taxes we pay for everything we buy, everything we do, pays for things. The Government pays for nothing, we, the citizens do (okay, for the past 10 years or so the Chinese have paid for quite a bit of it).
Say what you mean, don't regurgitate talking points. President Bush and the Republican Congress spent way to much freakin' money and now President Obama and the Democrat Congress is making them look like pikers.
Look, I have no problem with you ripping President Bush for his spending, but try to use the right terms.
At the moment we have a deficit because if our government spends more than they take in.
If we decrease the amount we take in by cutting taxes, that's going to increase the deficit.
Thinking that tax cuts pay for themselves, that the Laffer Curve is universal, or that we (when people are paying the least they've done in a very long time in Taxes) are on the righthand side of it, is foolish.
| 287 |
Targetpractice Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:56:54pm |
The frak got into the water today to drive aggressions through the roof?
| 288 |
prairiefire Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:57:06pm |
| 289 |
Four More Tears Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:57:24pm |
re: #287 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
The frak got into the water today to drive aggressions through the roof?
Are you lookin' at me?
/
| 290 |
Targetpractice Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:57:31pm |
re: #284 Kragar (proud to be kafir)
Every generation says they're idealists who've learned the lessons of the past.
Who then go on to make the exact same mistakes.
| 291 |
Ojoe Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:57:31pm |
re: #240 TheMatrix31
People didn't vote for Obama because they thought he was gonna give them free shit?
LOL. Okay.
Some probably did, it is a question of percentage.
| 292 |
Stonemason Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:58:07pm |
re: #268 jamesfirecat
"The Price we pay for our freedom is regrettably necessary"
So we should raise taxes to make sure we don't burden future generations with it?
We probably should, but I would need to take a close look at the budget first.
| 293 |
Targetpractice Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:58:13pm |
| 294 |
TheMatrix31 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:58:22pm |
re: #288 prairiefire
Why don't you tell me, from an approved source? If I'm so unenlightened (like so many here portray me) then clearly I won't find correct, unbiased info.
| 295 |
TheMatrix31 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:58:42pm |
re: #289 JasonA
So, Jason, why should I follow in Cato's footsteps?
| 296 |
b_Snark Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:58:47pm |
re: #274 McSpiff
Sure they are. I was taught from day 1 that homosexuality was totally acceptable, same with most of my peers. To me, gay marriage is an inventiable, inalienable right. How many people 30 or 40 years older than me can say the same thing?
Probably more than you expect. Not as many as there should be. However the generation of my father is having a great deal of trouble dealing with 'gayness' in general.
| 297 |
Stanghazi Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:58:54pm |
| 298 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:59:10pm |
re: #279 TheMatrix31
How much of that deficit is due to the wars?
F*** it there's a great chart that shows this, and I can't find it!
| 299 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:00:00pm |
re: #277 b_sharp
Morality changes over time as a society evolves, so yes morality can be and is age differentiated.
Up to a point, that is true- but only up to a point.
On the big and significant issues morality does not change. There are those who want and need morality to change so as to further their political agenda and then are those for whom pasr values are what bind a society (this is in essence the Marshall Berman- Francis Fukayama debate).
| 300 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:00:41pm |
Now a bottom feeder has showed up on the previous thread.
| 301 |
Targetpractice Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:00:42pm |
re: #297 Stanley Sea
It's so obviously the "get off my lawn" syndrome.
Ahh, the growth of a blog.
Oh right, that reminds me...
YOU DAMN KIDS, GET OFF MY LAWN!! *Waves cane*
///
| 302 |
allegro Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:00:44pm |
re: #296 b_sharp
Probably more than you expect. Not as many as there should be. However the generation of my father is having a great deal of trouble dealing with 'gayness' in general.
I think my parents and their generation did have some issues with the gay thing. That is until I had a gay roommate in my 20s. They loved him and were delighted that I had a great roommate who was male to "protect" their daughter but who wouldn't touch me. LOL
| 303 |
Kragar Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:01:25pm |
re: #301 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Oh right, that reminds me...
YOU DAMN KIDS, GET OFF MY LAWN!! *Waves cane*
///
AND WHO LEFT THIS FLAMING BAG ON THE PORCH?
| 304 |
HappyWarrior Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:01:33pm |
I agree with Spiff's point about people in our generation. I'm 23. Though I can remember joking around about gays as a preteen. I can't really remember ever thinking that it would be right to tell them they shouldn't have the same rights I have. Guess it was similiar with drugs too. Even though I had never done pot. I never could understand why it was criminalized.
| 305 |
Four More Tears Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:01:51pm |
re: #295 TheMatrix31
So, Jason, why should I follow in Cato's footsteps?
I never said you should, I only asked if you would. And I did say please...
| 306 |
BryanS Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:02:08pm |
Regarding the topic on top of the thread, some design, huh?
| 308 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:02:32pm |
re: #279 TheMatrix31
How much of that deficit is due to the wars?
Wait I have it!
Image: 12-16-09bud-rev6-28-10-f1.jpg
[Link: www.cbpp.org...]
Looks like about a .3 trillion dollars or 1/5th of our total deficit....
| 309 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:03:30pm |
re: #278 McSpiff
I think I screamed enough "fuck you"s last thread that at the very least I can't be accused of tiptoeing to avoid offending people. But I'll take your post as being generally in agreement.
It was in agreement, and not meant to be mean. I do come from a culture that is affected by a number of different factors. The general factor of the era I was born into, the factor of where I spent my formative years (Brooklyn NY and New Jersey) and personal factors of having a tough assed physically abusive father, and having it drummed into me that I am the only person responsible for what happens next in my life.
So, I can respect new ideas, new cultural mores, I can try to pick up some positives from others and their ideas, but on certain levels, on certain issues, the way I will react to certain events, opinions and politics, there is probably no changing some of my core values, my core issues, my way of dealing with certain aspects of life.
Evidently I'm not wrong, evidently you're not wrong, it's worked for me, it works for you... and I feel confident that I have not willfully hurt anyone in the process.
I'm not where I am because I've gone through life being wrong. But I may have gone through life not doing it the way you would, or will.
See how that works?
| 310 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:03:56pm |
re: #297 Stanley Sea
It's so obviously the "get off my lawn" syndrome.
Ahh, the growth of a blog.
Hey I'm not knocking anybody. I was in a discussion here with a few posters talking about the 60's. Obviously I hadn't lived through it. I was familiar with the facts and dates being discussed but I've never had a better sense for the feeling of the time. I also had the opportunity to ask questions, which they responded to positively and with insight. It was just a really neat discussion about everything from music and cars, to Canadian politics and the anti-war movement.
I can't have that type of discussion with someone who is 22 or 23. Its impossible. I don't ever want this place to be me and my friends/peers talking about how right we are about the world. I want to take my knocks, be forced to think and defend myself.
| 311 |
Ojoe Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:04:19pm |
re: #304 HappyWarrior
Even though I had never done pot. I never could understand why it was criminalized.
It had better be leagalized and taxed, because the mexican drug cartels are sending people up to my neck of the woods to grow it & they are violent types who they send.
| 313 |
Stanghazi Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:04:32pm |
re: #294 TheMatrix31
Why don't you tell me, from an approved source? If I'm so unenlightened (like so many here portray me) then clearly I won't find correct, unbiased info.
You don't like people. Why bother.
| 314 |
HappyWarrior Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:05:40pm |
re: #311 Ojoe
It had better be leagalized and taxed, because the mexican drug cartels are sending people up to my neck of the woods to grow it & they are violent types who they send.
Yeah just like tobacco and alcohol. I think my biggest problem with the drug war has been that we treat users like they're criminals.
| 315 |
TheMatrix31 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:06:25pm |
re: #313 Stanley Sea
That has nothing to do with my query.
| 316 |
Stanghazi Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:07:03pm |
re: #308 jamesfirecat
Wait I have it!
Image: 12-16-09bud-rev6-28-10-f1.jpg
[Link: www.cbpp.org...]
Looks like about a .3 trillion dollars or 1/5th of our total deficit...
Dude, I swear they won't click. It would blow it if they did.
| 317 |
b_Snark Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:07:28pm |
re: #299 researchok
Up to a point, that is true- but only up to a point.
On the big and significant issues morality does not change. There are those who want and need morality to change so as to further their political agenda and then are those for whom pasr values are what bind a society (this is in essence the Marshall Berman- Francis Fukayama debate).
I can't think of a value that is absolute. There are some that are universal, like not killing a member of your in-group, but I'm not sure universal equates to absolute.
| 318 |
BryanS Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:07:31pm |
re: #314 HappyWarrior
Yeah just like tobacco and alcohol. I think my biggest problem with the drug war has been that we treat users like they're criminals.
Besides the fact they are...but I get the sentiment. Most drugs should be legal. And giving drugs to minors should always be criminal.
| 319 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:08:44pm |
re: #316 Stanley Sea
Dude, I swear they won't click. It would blow it if they did.
Who cares I have reaffirmed my own personal google-fu skills.
Besides there's always a chance... right?
| 321 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:10:13pm |
re: #317 b_sharp
I can't think of a value that is absolute. There are some that are universal, like not killing a member of your in-group, but I'm not sure universal equates to absolute.
Murder is an absolute. Racism is never acceptable, nor is child or spouse abuse. Democracy is always preferable to tyranny. Genocide, calls to genocide, and religious intolerance are but a few examples.
Lots more.
| 322 |
TheMatrix31 Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:10:53pm |
Anyway, rather than be dragged through the mud yet again by the usual suspects, I'm going to hop in the shower and get ready for dinner.
Thanks again for the link, firecat
| 323 |
webevintage Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:10:58pm |
As always I have no idea what happened.
I probably don't want to know....
| 324 |
BryanS Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:11:19pm |
re: #321 researchok
Murder is an absolute. Racism is never acceptable, nor is child or spouse abuse. Democracy is always preferable to tyranny. Genocide, calls to genocide, and religious intolerance are but a few examples.
Lots more.
Would murdering a despot be immoral? Hate to invoke Godwin's law and all.
| 325 |
Ojoe Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:11:40pm |
re: #317 b_sharp
I can't think of a value that is absolute.
Try the 10 Commandments.
They are pretty much like engineering rules in the sense of producing something that works, if you want to get a society that is actually fair and nobody gets hurt.
That is an absolute goal, in my book anyway.
| 326 |
abolitionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:11:56pm |
re: #20 Cato the Elder
Sorry to hear about your time being up, ...in meatspace. That sounds serious.
{ Cato }
| 327 |
Stanghazi Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:11:59pm |
| 328 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:12:03pm |
Completely (and thankfully off-topic for this increasingly toxic thread) here's an article about how oil and naturals gas forms. It's called petrogenesis and the article is Killer Bee:
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
| 329 |
Obdicut Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:12:07pm |
re: #322 TheMatrix31
How about actually reacting to the link in some manner, rather than just jumping in the victimhood shower?
Whatever.
Maybe it's the heat. People are blowing tops left and right. It's like an earthquake in a champagne factory.
| 330 |
allegro Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:12:25pm |
re: #321 researchok
Murder is an absolute. Racism is never acceptable, nor is child or spouse abuse. Democracy is always preferable to tyranny. Genocide, calls to genocide, and religious intolerance are but a few examples.
Lots more.
You must be very young as well. In my little kidhood, schools and businesses were segregated and racism was a matter-of-fact given. Spouse abuse, short of murder, was kept quiet - a woman was a man's property doncha know.
| 331 |
Ojoe Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:12:26pm |
re: #324 BryanS
Now you are getting into the distinction between murder and killing.
| 332 |
jaunte Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:12:28pm |
re: #323 webevintage
As always I have no idea what happened.
I probably don't want to know...
Turns out that monkeys aren't any better with money than humans are.
| 333 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:13:19pm |
re: #324 BryanS
Would murdering a despot be immoral? Hate to invoke Godwin's law and all.
No, murdering a despot would not be immoral., if that murder were to occur in the context of ending tyranny. In fact, it would be obligatory- and most moral.
| 334 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:13:21pm |
re: #320 TheMatrix31
Whoa! What did I just step in?
(my beer froze in the hotel fridge. I hate hotel fridges)
| 335 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:14:16pm |
re: #322 TheMatrix31
Anyway, rather than be dragged through the mud yet again by the usual suspects, I'm going to hop in the shower and get ready for dinner.
Thanks again for the link, firecat
there seems to be general discontent regarding the usual suspects...
| 336 |
BryanS Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:15:17pm |
re: #325 Ojoe
Try the 10 Commandments.
They are pretty much like engineering rules in the sense of producing something that works, if you want to get a society that is actually fair and nobody gets hurt.
That is an absolute goal, in my book anyway.
The first couple are all about praising a jealous god. Nothing moral about that.
The Hitch convincingly lays waste to any claim the commandments have on morality, and comes up with a list much better then the "original ten"
| 337 |
BenghaziHoops Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:15:26pm |
re: #334 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Whoa! What did I just step in?
(my beer froze in the hotel fridge. I hate hotel fridges)
Hi Veggie! We brothers we few Living in Hotels...
What shall we do?
102 outside
| 338 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:15:27pm |
re: #300 Alouette
Now a bottom feeder has showed up on the previous thread.
Puts on rubber suit and wades back in..
| 339 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:15:50pm |
re: #324 BryanS
Would murdering a despot be immoral? Hate to invoke Godwin's law and all.
Depends, doesn't it? What if his successor was his worse? Many believe that the object of Godwin's Law was the Ultimate Evil.
Really? Really?!?!? He existed in a vacuum?
| 340 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:15:50pm |
re: #335 brookly red
there seems to be general discontent regarding the usual suspects...
Yeah I mean seriously, there is no way that Verbal Kint could possibly be Keyser Soze ...
| 341 |
goddamnedfrank Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:15:51pm |
re: #298 jamesfirecat
F*** it there's a great chart that shows this, and I can't find it!
Total US public debt = 14.078 Trillion Dollars
Estimated to date total cost of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan = 1.082 Trillion Dollars
Percentage of US Debt due to Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan = 1.082/14.078*100 = 7.686%
Note: This figure does not include out of theater medical care, physical and mental rehabilitation, prosthetics, crimes and domestic violence committed in partial response to post traumatic stress symptoms, etc.
| 342 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:16:03pm |
re: #337 HoosierHoops
Hi Veggie! We brothers we few Living in Hotels...
What shall we do?
102 outside
We shall stay in and drink frozen beer.
| 343 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:16:17pm |
re: #309 Walter L. Newton
re: #309 Walter L. Newton
You summed up what I've been trying to say quite nicely actually. Neither of us is wrong, but if you or any other poster wants to help point out upcoming speed bumps in life, just because you've been down this road before, its appreciated. I've already had it drilled into me here that I'm never too young to be responsible and save money and plan ahead.
| 344 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:16:32pm |
re: #330 allegro
You must be very young as well. In my little kidhood, schools and businesses were segregated and racism was a matter-of-fact given. Spouse abuse, short of murder, was kept quiet - a woman was a man's property doncha know.
No, I am not very young at all.
Morality that challenges and changes immorality is a very good thing.
Morality that would impart equality and a moral standing to bigots and racists is immmorality.
| 345 |
Nimed Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:16:51pm |
Finally caught up with the thread. Glad to see all hell stopped braking loose, though I'm sorry I missed last thread's heated discussion.
Also, have you guys ever noticed that, when you're writing a post, you can resize the text box? First time I've seen this feature in a comment section.
| 346 |
prairiefire Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:16:54pm |
re: #334 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Whoa! What did I just step in?
(my beer froze in the hotel fridge. I hate hotel fridges)
Just set it on the counter for a while, it will be alright.
| 347 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:17:00pm |
re: #228 Alouette
Cato got fed up with a certain Lizard who likes to season his silly anti-Israel comments with stupid little emoticons.
Not worth flouncing over, IMO.
a bit late, but... I think that he just hates my emoticons...
...
>>
| 348 |
BryanS Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:17:31pm |
re: #339 austin_blue
Depends, doesn't it? What if his successor was his worse? Many believe that the object of Godwin's Law was the Ultimate Evil.
Really? Really?!?!? He existed in a vacuum?
Exactly. It's not always so cut and dry.
| 349 |
Targetpractice Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:17:35pm |
re: #339 austin_blue
Depends, doesn't it? What if his successor was his worse? Many believe that the object of Godwin's Law was the Ultimate Evil.
Really? Really?!?!? He existed in a vacuum?
Ultimate Evil? Depends on what criteria you wish to argue.
| 350 |
Ojoe Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:17:44pm |
re: #336 BryanS
The first couple are all about praising a jealous god. Nothing moral about that.
Well worship of material gain might have got us into this economy mess, don't you think? That's idolatry, right?
I think the 1st Commandment might be important after all.
| 351 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:17:53pm |
re: #340 jamesfirecat
Yeah I mean seriously, there is no way that Verbal Kint could possibly be Keyser Soze ...
upding for humor but the shit is still unraveling...
| 353 |
prairiefire Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:18:56pm |
re: #343 McSpiff
re: #309 Walter L. Newton
You summed up what I've been trying to say quite nicely actually. Neither of us is wrong, but if you or any other poster wants to help point out upcoming speed bumps in life, just because you've been down this road before, its appreciated. I've already had it drilled into me here that I'm never too young to be responsible and save money and plan ahead.
How are your teeth? : )
| 354 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:19:02pm |
re: #347 windsagio
a bit late, but... I think that he just hates my emoticons...
...
>>
I think you just missed the real meat of Alouette's comment... "anti-Israel comments"... kind of slide right past you... huh ;) :) >> ;;; ### $$$ %%% 666
| 355 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:20:44pm |
re: #354 Walter L. Newton
Yeah I should totally dig right into Israel again, I"m sure everyone would enjoy that!
| 356 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:20:53pm |
re: #269 EmmmieG
have to go and make dinner for the popsicle-wrapper droppers.
SFZ--have you seen this...[Video]
Wow.
| 357 |
Stonemason Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:21:00pm |
re: #341 goddamnedfrank
Total US public debt = 14.078 Trillion Dollars
Estimated to date total cost of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan = 1.082 Trillion Dollars
Percentage of US Debt due to Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan = 1.082/14.078*100 = 7.686%
Note: This figure does not include out of theater medical care, physical and mental rehabilitation, prosthetics, crimes and domestic violence committed in partial response to post traumatic stress symptoms, etc.
But the chart...the chart...it said 20%...
| 358 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:21:01pm |
re: #346 prairiefire
Just set it on the counter for a while, it will be alright.
Me wants it. My precious.
| 360 |
BryanS Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:21:48pm |
re: #350 Ojoe
Well worship of material gain might have got us into this economy mess, don't you think? That's idolatry, right?
I think the 1st Commandment might be important after all.
First commandment is about not having any other god or make idols (of other said gods). Pretty sure we could do just fine without it.
| 361 |
BenghaziHoops Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:21:49pm |
Well there is a new open thread...
I swabbed the the Thread for radioactivity after the suitcase Nuke went off...
It is way over 450 micro curries squared per Centimeter...Get out..
Get out now!
| 362 |
Stonemason Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:22:09pm |
re: #343 McSpiff
re: #309 Walter L. Newton
You summed up what I've been trying to say quite nicely actually. Neither of us is wrong, but if you or any other poster wants to help point out upcoming speed bumps in life, just because you've been down this road before, its appreciated. I've already had it drilled into me here that I'm never too young to be responsible and save money and plan ahead.
Even if you choose to go commando most of the time, keep a clean pair in the glove box.
| 363 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:22:33pm |
re: #349 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Ultimate Evil? Depends on what criteria you wish to argue.
My point exactly. Many people want to argue that Libtards such as I cannot think in terms of right and wrong. I agree. I think in terms of righter and wronger and try to get as much info as I can on policy before making a decision on whether that specific policy is righter or wronger than possible alternatives. To me, as a thinking human.
| 364 |
Obdicut Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:23:04pm |
re: #361 HoosierHoops
Hoops, if you haven't read anything by Terry Pratchett, you really should.
| 365 |
Targetpractice Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:23:47pm |
re: #361 HoosierHoops
Well there is a new open thread...
I swabbed the the Thread for radioactivity after the suitcase Nuke went off...
It is way over 450 micro curries squared per Centimeter...Get out..
Get out now!
That's what the power armor's for. That and a couple of Rad-X pills.
/
| 366 |
b_Snark Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:25:01pm |
re: #321 researchok
Murder is an absolute. Racism is never acceptable, nor is child or spouse abuse. Democracy is always preferable to tyranny. Genocide, calls to genocide, and religious intolerance are but a few examples.
Lots more.
Murder has not always been an absolute. It is universal in cultures where in-group and out-group boundries are fuzzy, but there are still cultures where killing members of an out-group is not only accepted but encouraged. This was also encouraged not that long ago in North America between First Nations, and between Colonialists and First Nations, and even farther back in European cultures.
The other absolutes you mention are also recent value changes. The best you can say is that they are currently absolute within Western culture.
| 367 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:25:19pm |
re: #363 austin_blue
My point exactly. Many people want to argue that Libtards such as I cannot think in terms of right and wrong. I agree. I think in terms of righter and wronger and try to get as much info as I can on policy before making a decision on whether that specific policy is righter or wronger than possible alternatives. To me, as a thinking human.
What about moral absolutes? Do you have to think about those as well?
Murder, racism, tyranny, bigotry, hate, etc.
| 368 |
blueraven Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:25:33pm |
re: #359 windsagio
forgot my emote:
oO
Why don't you give it a break and let things settle down. Stop with the obvious attempts at sarcasm, or gloating?... or whatever you are doing with that post.
| 369 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:27:22pm |
re: #368 blueraven
'making light of an ugly situation?' Ok. I can be dead seroius if you really want :P
But I suspect you don't ;)
| 370 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:28:20pm |
re: #366 b_sharp
Murder has not always been an absolute. It is universal in cultures where in-group and out-group boundries are fuzzy, but there are still cultures where killing members of an out-group is not only accepted but encouraged. This was also encouraged not that long ago in North America between First Nations, and between Colonialists and First Nations, and even farther back in European cultures.
The other absolutes you mention are also recent value changes. The best you can say is that they are currently absolute within Western culture.
Yes- and it is incumbent upon us to elevate murder to an absolute!
As to your other remark, are you implying those absolutes ought to temporary? That we ought not defend them? Are you saying we ought not intervene where those absolutes are not accepted??
| 371 |
Nimed Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:28:29pm |
re: #347 windsagio
a bit late, but... I think that he just hates my emoticons...
...
>>
By the way, I can't believe the anti-Israel bullshit accusations came up yet again. Was it because you said that's it's likely the blue helmets didn't conspire with the Lebanese Armed Forces in the attack against IDF?
| 372 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:29:09pm |
re: #371 Nimed
By the way, I can't believe the anti-Israel bullshit accusations came up yet again. Was it because you said that's it's likely the blue helmets didn't conspire with the Lebanese Armed Forces in the attack against IDF?
Lol in the name of peace lets let it go until next time :D
But yes, its very strange... >>
| 373 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:29:20pm |
re: #369 windsagio
'making light of an ugly situation?' Ok. I can be dead seroius if you really want :P
But I suspect you don't ;)
Well, it's dead serious that you drove Cato away.
| 374 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:30:00pm |
re: #333 researchok
No, murdering a despot would not be immoral., if that murder were to occur in the context of ending tyranny. In fact, it would be obligatory- and most moral.
Was it moral to murder the Czar's entire family?
Was it moral to murder Marie Antoinette?
| 375 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:30:07pm |
re: #373 Walter L. Newton
do you really really want to discuss this walter?
Because I"m all game, but it'll become a fight, and I suspect Charles will get annoyed. :p
| 376 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:30:14pm |
re: #367 researchok
What about moral absolutes? Do you have to think about those as well?
Murder, racism, tyranny, bigotry, hate, etc.
That's an interesting question! Does murder = homicide? I think some homicides, in extremis, are justified. I think a Benevolent Tyrant who maintains power to prevent a tribal genocide, for example, is justified. I think bigotry is stupid, not immoral, and everyone has the right to hate injustice.
| 378 |
Stanghazi Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:31:00pm |
By the way, I can't believe the anti-Israel bullshit accusations came up yet again. Was it because you said that's it's likely the blue helmets didn't conspire with the Lebanese Armed Forces in the attack against IDF?
Nooo, cannot question. Cannot think.
Seriously. I didn't even read the thread.
| 379 |
blueraven Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:31:19pm |
re: #369 windsagio
'making light of an ugly situation?' Ok. I can be dead seroius if you really want :P
But I suspect you don't ;)
A little restraint every now and then is a healthy thing. But, whatever. Carry on.
| 380 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:31:30pm |
re: #256 McSpiff
I think LGF has taken on an influx of newer, younger blood. I make no secret about my age (22) so I'm speaking about myself here to a certain degree... I think we're seeing a bit of a cultural shift here that goes beyond the normal left-right thing we've been seeing. Yes, younger people tend to go more left wing in general (post counter examples to prove I'm wrong...now) but we also have a different set of life experiences, different goals for the most part (ask me about owning my own home...) and probably a different way of expressing ourselves. I grew up with emoticons. They seem like a normal aspect of online speech to me, used to crudely fill in some of the information lost when we stopped having tone and body language to look to.
I don't think either side of this is right or wrong, and I hope to see that we can all adjust, learn and teach and generally widening each others world views.
Or we can rip each others throats out. Whatever works.
Regardless of what your age is, you do have a more mature demeanor than some others do, and it is appreciated.
| 381 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:31:59pm |
re: #379 blueraven
Had just about enough of that noise :p
Was tolerant and showed massive restraint for over a month, and they STILL lay blame when the guy flames out.
| 382 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:32:09pm |
re: #380 reine.de.tout
Regardless of what your age is, you do have a more mature demeanor than some others do, and it is appreciated.
Thanks, Reine, well said.
| 384 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:32:30pm |
re: #373 Walter L. Newton
Well, it's dead serious that you drove Cato away.
no sir...it was Cato's choice not to lower himself. there is a difference.
| 385 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:32:47pm |
| 387 |
Stanghazi Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:33:47pm |
re: #373 Walter L. Newton
Well, it's dead serious that you drove Cato away.
Waaah. Bullshit.
You oldies are trying SO HARD to pin the decisions of your fellows on the new blood. Absolute bullshit.
btw, anyone in touch with Bagua???
Cato, of all posters, from my view, is stronger than letting some "new" person get to him.
Stop with the reverse pogroms.
What the hell.
| 388 |
blueraven Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:34:12pm |
re: #381 windsagio
Had just about enough of that noise :p
Was tolerant and showed massive restraint for over a month, and they STILL lay blame when the guy flames out.
That's not what I was talking about. It was your "forgot your emoticons" post. Why?
It was sarcastic and not in a really funny way.
| 390 |
Targetpractice Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:35:23pm |
re: #367 researchok
What about moral absolutes? Do you have to think about those as well?
Murder, racism, tyranny, bigotry, hate, etc.
All depends on the viewpoint.
| 391 |
blueraven Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:35:40pm |
| 392 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:35:45pm |
re: #371 Nimed
By the way, I can't believe the anti-Israel bullshit accusations came up yet again. Was it because you said that's it's likely the blue helmets didn't conspire with the Lebanese Armed Forces in the attack against IDF?
That wasn't my take on it.
I mean, that wasn't the reason for any anti-Israel "bullshit".
It had more to do with what appeared to be a complete and total unwillingness to even consider that perhaps the UN peacekeepers have an agenda.
| 394 |
Nimed Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:37:42pm |
re: #378 Stanley Sea
Nooo, cannot question. Cannot think.
Seriously. I didn't even read the thread.
I did. What I found pretty strange it that the substantive disagreements were not that great. Nobody tried to argue that the LAF response was justified. And lots of people had really good contributions to the discussion. But some people just lose their minds about the slightest difference of opinion in this issue that doesn't come with a list of disclaimers.
| 395 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:38:06pm |
re: #354 Walter L. Newton
I think you just missed the real meat of Alouette's comment... "anti-Israel comments"... kind of slide right past you... huh ;) :) >> ;;; ### $$$ %%% 666
Here's where I might get smacked... but I'm going to post my thoughts honestly and I'll do my best to explain it if required.
My earliest memories are roughly from 1993. Watching the westray mine disaster and something in Bosnia with my dad. I do not remember the Soviet Union. I never watched with horror the Munich Olympics. I don't even remember Gulf War I. I'm too young to have seen the Dawson's Field Hijacking or most other Palestinian attacks. I never saw Israel finally win control back of Jerusalem.
I've never seen Israel battle for its existence.
That last point is key. My generation has never questioned the existence of Israel. Its been a constant for us. I've seen Israel attacked, I've seen Jews murdered all over the globe but I've never had to seriously consider a world without Israel as a Jewish homeland.
I like to think I'm more historically educated than many of my generation, but that's quite possibly me blowing my own horn. Israel is an ally, and 1st world democracy and by all accounts a nice country with shitty neighbors and a terrorism problem. That's how my generation largely see's Israel. It's very different from someone born even in the 1970s.
So you have an odd situation where even the youth that support Israel don't really understand the magnitude of its very existence. Some may support Israel the same way they'd support Holland or Spain. Of course they have a right to exist! Of course we should trade with them and defend them. Its almost by default, the same way some would view the USA today, not as an extraordinaire group of people breaking free of tyranny, but as.. the USA. Warts and all.
I know I've treated Israel as "just another country" and had some hint that maybe I wasn't as pro-Israeli as I let on? And maybe to a certain degree its true. I honestly can't picture Israel ever being invaded. Its like Canada or the US being invaded.
So if some of the users post something that comes across as too pro-UN or somewhat anti-Israel just try to keep in mind that to some of us, Israel is just as stable as Canada or Germany. We don't have that image of Israel battling for its very survival, and to be honest I'm grateful that I don't. I hope she never needs to have that fight again.
Not saying this is true for everyone. Some on the left still hate Israel and say they stole the lands and blah blah blah. I'm mainly referring to what some might consider edge cases.
| 396 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:38:10pm |
re: #393 windsagio
Trying... not... to... reopen... that... discussion...!
:p
Do what you want.
I was answering Nimed, who questioned the reasons and got them wrong.
| 397 |
Stanghazi Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:38:49pm |
It's political blog. There are disagreements.
When disagreements are verboten, regardless of the subject matter, well....
| 398 |
Targetpractice Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:40:16pm |
re: #397 Stanley Sea
It's political blog. There are disagreements.
When disagreements are verboten, regardless of the subject matter, well...
Then we become an echo chamber. Having waded through the depths of DU before, I have absolutely no desire to see LGF become an echo chamber.
| 399 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:40:28pm |
re: #395 McSpiff
Very excellently said (not reposting because its so long :P)
I'm way older than you too, but its basically the same thing. I just come on a little stronger.
PS: You really a chick? I had you down as male on my list :P
| 400 |
ShaunP Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:40:38pm |
re: #394 Nimed
I did. What I found pretty strange it that the substantive disagreements were not that great. Nobody tried to argue that the LAF response was justified. And lots of people had really good contributions to the discussion. But some people just lose their minds about the slightest difference of opinion in this issue that doesn't come with a list of disclaimers.
I wrote several quasi-posts basically saying the same thing, but none ever graduated to full-fledged post status. Wasn't willing to tread through the muckety muck.
Seriously though, sometimes we argue tooth and nail between 95% and 100% of an argument...
| 401 |
b_Snark Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:41:04pm |
re: #325 Ojoe
Try the 10 Commandments.
They are pretty much like engineering rules in the sense of producing something that works, if you want to get a society that is actually fair and nobody gets hurt.
That is an absolute goal, in my book anyway.
Not all of those are practical or necessary beyond control of a society and the others were put in place because they were functionally necessary for a society too large for normal/historical in-group out-group dynamics.
I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
Irrelevant.
______________
Do not have any other gods before me.
Irrelevant.
______________
You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Irrelevant.
______________
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
Irrelevant.
______________
but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Irrelevant.
______________
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.
Irrelevant.
______________
Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.
Irrelevant.
______________
For six days you shall labour and do all your work.
Irrelevant.
______________
But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.
Irrelevant.
______________
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.
Irrelevant.
______________
Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
This one is universal and may be ingrained in our DNA.
______________
You shall not murder.
This is universal with respect to in-group only.
______________
You shall not commit adultery.
This one is highly practical but not universal.
______________
You shall not steal.
Practical but not universal.
______________
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Practical but not universal.
______________
You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
Practical but not universal.
______________
| 402 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:41:10pm |
re: #397 Stanley Sea
It's political blog. There are disagreements.
When disagreements are verboten, regardless of the subject matter, well...
It would serve you well to remember that before you go on your next downding exposition... :)
| 403 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:41:15pm |
re: #387 Stanley Sea
Waaah. Bullshit.
You oldies are trying SO HARD to pin the decisions of your fellows on the new blood. Absolute bullshit.
btw, anyone in touch with Bagua???
Cato, of all posters, from my view, is stronger than letting some "new" person get to him.
Stop with the reverse pogroms.
What the hell.
Bagua... no... I haven't heard about or from him since the day he left here. I don't play games "behind the scenes." And Lizards that are friends of mine off this blog, are simply who they are, in real like (like you for example) and I don't bring and ounce of the conflicts that happen one here into that personal space.
And if you make a list of the Lizards I have actually dealt with off LGF either face to face, or at least more personal than a couple of emails, those Lizards are well aware that I don't hold any sort of court from one medium to another.
You should know that yourself. So, I have no idea why you would bring Bagua up in this conversation, at least bring him up to me?
| 404 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:41:20pm |
re: #398 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
That's exactly why a lot of the old hardcore righties flamed out. It quit being an echochamber on their pet subjects, and they couldn't handle it.
Israel is the final frontier in that regard.
| 405 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:41:22pm |
re: #399 windsagio
*Double checks* Nope, still a dude. Did I fuck up a pronoun somewhere?
| 406 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:41:23pm |
re: #395 McSpiff
. ..
I know I've treated Israel as "just another country" and had some hint that maybe I wasn't as pro-Israeli as I let on? And maybe to a certain degree its true. I honestly can't picture Israel ever being invaded. Its like Canada or the US being invaded.So if some of the users post something that comes across as too pro-UN or somewhat anti-Israel just try to keep in mind that to some of us, Israel is just as stable as Canada or Germany. We don't have that image of Israel battling for its very survival, and to be honest I'm grateful that I don't. I hope she never needs to have that fight again.
Not saying this is true for everyone. Some on the left still hate Israel and say they stole the lands and blah blah blah. I'm mainly referring to what some might consider edge cases.
Well, I'm not going to smack you.
I do believe you are in error in thinking that the situation in as regards the state of Israel is as stable as Canada or Germany. If it is stable, it is because the Israelis defend themselves strongly when necessary, and it seems to be necessary a whole bunch.
| 407 |
Nimed Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:41:44pm |
re: #392 reine.de.tout
That wasn't my take on it.
I mean, that wasn't the reason for any anti-Israel "bullshit".
It had more to do with what appeared to be a complete and total unwillingness to even consider that perhaps the UN peacekeepers have an agenda.
The discussion started with photographic evidence of LAF and the blue helmets working together (the latter waving the white flag while the former ambushed IGF forces). I too think that the picture is far from conclusive and that there are a bunch of other more plausible explanations for this.
And here's the thing -- I may be wrong. Who knows, maybe those particular soldiers were corrupt bastards! But I still don't think that justifies pilling on wind the way people did.
| 408 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:41:54pm |
re: #393 windsagio
Trying... not... to... reopen... that... discussion...!
:p
And yet your post and it's structure says you are absolutely willing to do so! Please. Stop this.
You are doing yourself no favors by not offering this Board anything but how you "feel". This is not debate. This is trying to force us all to wear your Pearl Necklace. Inappropriate. Please. Stop this.
| 409 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:42:07pm |
re: #402 brookly red
People treat downdings too hard, karma doesn't matter at all :P
| 411 |
Targetpractice Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:42:37pm |
re: #404 windsagio
That's exactly why a lot of the old hardcore righties flamed out. It quit being an echochamber on their pet subjects, and they couldn't handle it.
Israel is the final frontier in that regard.
In what respect?
| 412 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:43:06pm |
re: #397 Stanley Sea
It's political blog. There are disagreements.
When disagreements are verboten, regardless of the subject matter, well...
Disagreements are not verboten.
Some people choose to leave the discussions. OR, some choose to do nothing more than point and laugh at others' points of view, rather than actually, you know, discussing them.
| 413 |
b_Snark Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:43:11pm |
re: #331 Ojoe
Now you are getting into the distinction between murder and killing.
You can't define murder as immoral killing without arguing in a circle.
| 414 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:43:14pm |
re: #409 windsagio
People treat downdings too hard, karma doesn't matter at all :P
yes I was simply referring to the hypocrisy...
| 415 |
b_Snark Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:43:46pm |
re: #334 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Whoa! What did I just step in?
(my beer froze in the hotel fridge. I hate hotel fridges)
Use your heat vision to thaw it out.
| 416 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:44:22pm |
re: #408 austin_blue
*sigh*.
I admit I"m making a point >>
The point is, nobody wants to recreate the sewer that was the last thread... Or at least I think that's the case.
That leaves a situation where one can either let something inaccurate go, or reopen the argument and turn another thread into a hellhole.
Alternatively, you can try some self-depreciating humor to lightly dispute the point, but also say that you're not terribly interested in getting back into the flames.
| 417 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:44:55pm |
re: #395 McSpiff
Not saying this is true for everyone. Some on the left still hate Israel and say they stole the lands and blah blah blah. I'm mainly referring to what some might consider edge cases.
I wouldn't, though. I would say that those 'edge cases' have considerable influence in the left-wing and progressive communities, considerable funding, and have managed to make their agenda part of the agenda of many, many other organizations.
It is still not unusual for there to be serious debate in some circles about whether the state of Israel should continue to exist.
So I think many of us react the way we do, not because OMG, we can't handle any opposing viewpoints, but because we see people parroting bad information from bad sources, and thinking that they're being terribly groundbreaking to suggest that 'maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle'.
And elsewhere, we see people deliberately passing horrible information, and calling for the boycott and ultimate destruction of Israel.
| 418 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:45:00pm |
re: #411 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Its largely an echo-chamber on that particular subject.
| 419 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:45:20pm |
re: #407 Nimed
The discussion started with photographic evidence of LAF and the blue helmets working together (the latter waving the white flag while the former ambushed IGF forces). I too think that the picture is far from conclusive and that there are a bunch of other more plausible explanations for this.
And here's the thing -- I may be wrong. Who knows, maybe those particular soldiers were corrupt bastards! But I still don't think that justifies pilling on wind the way people did.
Wind has a tendency to simply point and laugh at other points of view.
I scroll on past.
Many here, including LVQ, pointed to actual events and actions that cause them to believe the UN is anti-Israel. I think if Wind would give the same sort of evidence otherwise, instead of pointing and giggling, it would be a better discussion.
| 420 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:45:27pm |
re: #395 McSpiff
I can see where you are coming from. And to be totally honest with you, I never considered the view from your "age." You're right, it's was just there, and it's easier to treat it like every another country (and really, it would be nice if it could be treated like "just" another country), and maybe miss some of the passions, the pain, what still festers inside people who are much older than you, closer to the generation that saw Israel birth from the dust of the ME.
| 421 |
Stanghazi Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:45:30pm |
re: #402 brookly red
It would serve you well to remember that before you go on your next downding exposition... :)
And here we go. The ding conversation.
I've said it like 10 times. This blog has dings. For a reason. So ready for a psychological study how you (and others) zero in on them. Live with it.
Ding away, don't sweat it. (my mantra)
| 422 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:45:31pm |
re: #406 reine.de.tout
Well, I'm not going to smack you.
I do believe you are in error in thinking that the situation in as regards the state of Israel is as stable as Canada or Germany. If it is stable, it is because the Israelis defend themselves strongly when necessary, and it seems to be necessary a whole bunch.
I agree with you that its only stable because Israel and the Israelis work tirelessly to ensure its stable. But truthfully, I have an easier time imagining Belgium ceasing to be a nation than Israel. But that's 100% my own basis. And I would never, ever, ever suggest that Israel is somehow "over defending" itself.
| 423 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:46:12pm |
re: #404 windsagio
That's exactly why a lot of the old hardcore righties flamed out. It quit being an echochamber on their pet subjects, and they couldn't handle it.
Israel is the final frontier in that regard.
Why? Simple question!
Why?
| 424 |
BryanS Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:46:15pm |
re: #409 windsagio
People treat downdings too hard, karma doesn't matter at all :P
Downdinged just for grins :)
| 425 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:47:07pm |
re: #418 windsagio
Its largely an echo-chamber on that particular subject.
leftist definition: echo chamber
real world definition: consensus
oooops I said too much.
| 427 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:47:24pm |
re: #422 McSpiff
I agree with you that its only stable because Israel and the Israelis work tirelessly to ensure its stable. But truthfully, I have an easier time imagining Belgium ceasing to be a nation than Israel. But that's 100% my own basis. And I would never, ever, ever suggest that Israel is somehow "over defending" itself.
No, I didn't mean to suggest that you did say that Israel is "over-defending" itself.
But I believe it's quite clear that Israel is called upon to defend itself, within its own territory and immediately outside its borders, a heckuva lot more than Germany, Canada, Belgium, the US, etc etc etc. So to say it's "as stable", is just incorrect, IMO.
| 429 |
Stanghazi Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:47:28pm |
| 430 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:47:54pm |
re: #421 Stanley Sea
And here we go. The ding conversation.
I've said it like 10 times. This blog has dings. For a reason. So ready for a psychological study how you (and others) zero in on them. Live with it.
Ding away, don't sweat it. (my mantra)
it's not the ding it's the motive...
| 431 |
jaunte Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:48:25pm |
re: #419 reine.de.tout
Many here, including LVQ, pointed to actual events and actions that cause them to believe the UN is anti-Israel. I think if Wind would give the same sort of evidence otherwise, instead of pointing and giggling, it would be a better discussion.
Thanks for articulating that so concisely. I think that would help.
| 432 |
Targetpractice Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:48:26pm |
re: #418 windsagio
Its largely an echo-chamber on that particular subject.
Having been around as long as I have, seeing some of the shit the Palestinians did during the last Intifada, it's hard for me not to automatically take the pro-Israeli side of any incident.
| 433 |
b_Snark Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:48:33pm |
re: #344 researchok
No, I am not very young at all.
Morality that challenges and changes immorality is a very good thing.
Morality that would impart equality and a moral standing to bigots and racists is immmorality.
You are arguing by definition. You've defined morals as absolute and all old values that don't fit into that definition as immoral.
| 435 |
Spare O'Lake Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:48:57pm |
re: #395 McSpiffWe don't have that image of Israel battling for its very survival, and to be honest I'm grateful that I don't. I hope she never needs to have that fight again.
I'm sure people are greatly comforted by the smugness and hateful ignorance of those who pretend that Israel's very existence is not seriously denied by its neighbours, and who pretend that the UN is not riddled with anti-Semitism.
| 436 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:49:29pm |
re: #366 b_sharp
Murder has not always been an absolute. It is universal in cultures where in-group and out-group boundries are fuzzy, but there are still cultures where killing members of an out-group is not only accepted but encouraged. This was also encouraged not that long ago in North America between First Nations, and between Colonialists and First Nations, and even farther back in European cultures.
The other absolutes you mention are also recent value changes. The best you can say is that they are currently absolute within Western culture.
Yes- and it is incumbent upon us to elevate murder to an absolute!
As to your other remark, are you implying those absolutes ought to temporary? That we ought not defend them? Are you saying we ought not intervene where those absolutes are not accepted??re: #374 Alouette
Was it moral to murder the Czar's entire family?
Was it moral to murder Marie Antoinette?
Two issues here.
Firstly, the czar's tyranny was replaced by other tyrants. He and his family were not murdered so that tyranny would be replaced with democracy. Hence, the murders were immoral.
As far as Marie Antoinette, to a large degree her murder was dictated by the mob. Was her murder moral? No.
Motality is something we strive for. We may not get it right all the time but that does not mean we abdicate our need to be moral.
| 437 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:49:43pm |
| 438 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:49:52pm |
re: #432 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Fair enough. But people get so damn aggressive/defensive (or both :p)
Its impossible to have a reasonable discussion on the matter without dissolving into insults and insinuations.
| 439 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:50:01pm |
re: #417 SanFranciscoZionist
I wouldn't, though. I would say that those 'edge cases' have considerable influence in the left-wing and progressive communities, considerable funding, and have managed to make their agenda part of the agenda of many, many other organizations.
It is still not unusual for there to be serious debate in some circles about whether the state of Israel should continue to exist.
So I think many of us react the way we do, not because OMG, we can't handle any opposing viewpoints, but because we see people parroting bad information from bad sources, and thinking that they're being terribly groundbreaking to suggest that 'maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle'.
And elsewhere, we see people deliberately passing horrible information, and calling for the boycott and ultimate destruction of Israel.
Anyone who questions Israel's right to exist is right out in my book (Ha Ha). I'm not saying anyone should change their reaction to anything. Just trying to provide a slightly different view point of "Israel by default".
| 440 |
brookly red Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:50:09pm |
well water seeks it own level... so it is what it is. good night good folks.
| 441 |
Spare O'Lake Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:50:14pm |
re: #404 windsagio
That's exactly why a lot of the old hardcore righties flamed out. It quit being an echochamber on their pet subjects, and they couldn't handle it.
Israel is the final frontier in that regard.
You are dirt.
| 442 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:50:14pm |
re: #433 b_sharp
You are arguing by definition. You've defined morals as absolute and all old values that don't fit into that definition as immoral.
Please explain. I do not understand what you are trying to say.
| 443 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:50:36pm |
re: #437 austin_blue
To be honest, I didn't know what you were asking in reference to.
I'll do my damndest to answer, if you'll tell me 'why what'?
| 445 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:51:59pm |
re: #435 Spare O'Lake
I'm sure people are greatly comforted by the smugness and hateful ignorance of those who pretend that Israel's very existence is not seriously denied by its neighbours, and who pretend that the UN is not riddled with anti-Semitism.
Well, if you want to label me as smug and hatefully ignorant, that's your business. I'm just glad most here responded better than that.
| 446 |
Stanghazi Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:53:02pm |
re: #412 reine.de.tout
Disagreements are not verboten.
Some people choose to leave the discussions. OR, some choose to do nothing more than point and laugh at others' points of view, rather than actually, you know, discussing them.
Yeah, we wish. Seems like a lot of bashing of the other view takes place.
And then the blame of a loved poster leaving is on these bashees.
Sorry, that pisses me off. Us vs. them. Old vs. new
bullshit vs. bullshit
| 447 |
Ojoe Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:53:02pm |
re: #401 b_sharp
Irrelevant.
___
Do not have any other gods before me.
Not irrelevant. The fanatical followers of Adolph Hitler were breaking that one.
| 448 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:53:23pm |
re: #376 austin_blue
That's an interesting question! Does murder = homicide? I think some homicides, in extremis, are justified. I think a Benevolent Tyrant who maintains power to prevent a tribal genocide, for example, is justified. I think bigotry is stupid, not immoral, and everyone has the right to hate injustice.
Bigotry is not just stupid. It is deadly.
Minorities, women, gays and religious adherents are proof of that.
As for the benevolent tyrant, his actions may indeed be moral- for a time. Inevitably, tyrants of all stripes will behave in an immoral fashion.
| 449 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:53:39pm |
re: #443 windsagio
To be honest, I didn't know what you were asking in reference to.
I'll do my damndest to answer, if you'll tell me 'why what'?
Why is "Israel the final frontier in that regard?"
| 450 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:54:27pm |
| 451 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:54:43pm |
re: #427 reine.de.tout
No, I didn't mean to suggest that you did say that Israel is "over-defending" itself.
But I believe it's quite clear that Israel is called upon to defend itself, within its own territory and immediately outside its borders, a heckuva lot more than Germany, Canada, Belgium, the US, etc etc etc. So to say it's "as stable", is just incorrect, IMO.
On one level I agree. Israel battles daily to keep terrorist out, to maintain the IDF at a level that the Arab armies never question it. Rockets hit it every day. But somehow life goes on. This is the Israel I've always known.
| 452 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:54:52pm |
re: #446 Stanley Sea
Exactly.
Let me repeat again. Cato harassed me and chain-downdinged me for over a month, being warned several times in the process (not to mention how he treated Mandy :p).
Ice asked me to be careful around him because he was 'having a tough time', and I did my damndest to be careful with him and give him a lot of room.
So in the end what happens? Its still my fault that he decides he's gonna quit in a drunken rage.
| 453 |
BryanS Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:55:44pm |
re: #447 Ojoe
Not irrelevant. The fanatical followers of Adolph Hitler were breaking that one.
Ohh, so if only they worshiped god more--they had strong support form the catholic church afterall--the Nazis wouldn't have incinerated so many Jews?
Riiiiggghhht
| 454 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:55:53pm |
re: #450 researchok
Try 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973.
2010 - 22 = 1988. I've never seen the wars of 1948, 56, 67 and 73. I literally meant "wars I was alive for"
| 455 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:56:17pm |
re: #390 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
All depends on the viewpoint.
What viewpoint makes any of those things acceptable and morally equal to our way of life and morality?
| 456 |
Ojoe Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:56:21pm |
re: #452 windsagio
One could see that, anyway, Cato needed a break.
| 457 |
goddamnedfrank Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:56:22pm |
Here's the thing that pisses me off. The whole drama queen aspect of it all.
If I ever get to the point where I no longer find visiting LGF to be conducive to my enjoyment, I'll just slip away without a word. Why make it all about you, just go. Especially if you're the kind of person with a track record of having self-imposed a two week timeout that you never honored, just shut the fuck up about it and go, don't make a production out of it, go.
I know that Cato was a fixture and I love him too, but let us not pretend that stability is his strong suit. Maybe it's because as much as I like the lizards here, it's hard to imagine getting so pissed off over what I view, in the end, as some pixels on a screen as to leave. I just can't imagine letting one individual personality determine whether or not I'm going to post anymore. I find such impulsive displays difficult to respect.
| 458 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:56:35pm |
re: #449 austin_blue
Why is "Israel the final frontier in that regard?"
Because dissent is strongly suppressed on that issue.
Like I said above, you can't have a remotely dissenting pov on the subject without being fiercely attacked. Part of the reason for this is because there was effectively no dissent for so long, people get used to it.
The other part is that, well, Its a very important subject to some people.
| 459 |
Targetpractice Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:56:40pm |
re: #438 windsagio
Fair enough. But people get so damn aggressive/defensive (or both :p)
Its impossible to have a reasonable discussion on the matter without dissolving into insults and insinuations.
Again, you have to take into consideration that you're not the first to come here and take issue with Israel's actions or the support of those actions. Especially back in the ol' days, we had many trolls who would sit here for hours and meet even the most detailed, unbiased arguments in Israel's favor with accusations that we were all "racists," "Zionists," "Nazis," and so forth. They could not be debated in a civil manner, could offer nothing beyond well-used talking points, and would stoop to personal attacks when pressed to back up their arguments.
I'm not trying to make excuses, I'm trying to point out that the LGF of today and the LGF of 6 years ago are as culturally divided as the modern era and the Wild West.
| 460 |
BryanS Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:58:26pm |
re: #451 McSpiff
On one level I agree. Israel battles daily to keep terrorist out, to maintain the IDF at a level that the Arab armies never question it. Rockets hit it every day. But somehow life goes on. This is the Israel I've always known.
And at any moment or time, if Isreal were proven to be vulnerable to successful attack, it would cease to exist.
Some fanatical circles in Iran (their president among them) seriously discuss how nuking Isreal would destroy them in one fell swoop, and that it would be worth the collateral damage to be finally rid of their enemy they hate so much.
| 461 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:58:34pm |
re: #395 McSpiff
I know I've treated Israel as "just another country"
That is most commendable. Sadly, the UN and much of the international community is not so enlightened.
| 463 |
Stonemason Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:59:11pm |
re: #418 windsagio
Its largely an echo-chamber on that particular subject.
Which one? AGW? Evolution? Tea Parties?
One only sees an echo chamber when one is on the outside, I have learned that the hard way, here, by sitting back, reading, understanding, and realizing that I can disagree with things in a mature manner.
You (and other posters) seem to turn the Israel threads into attacks on the intellectual honesty of those who disagree with you. I have seen so many posts that accuse other posters of not thinking 'clearly' on this subject, which is just bunk.
| 464 |
BryanS Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:59:53pm |
re: #457 goddamnedfrank
Here's the thing that pisses me off. The whole drama queen aspect of it all.
If I ever get to the point where I no longer find visiting LGF to be conducive to my enjoyment, I'll just slip away without a word. Why make it all about you, just go. Especially if you're the kind of person with a track record of having self-imposed a two week timeout that you never honored, just shut the fuck up about it and go, don't make a production out of it, go.
I know that Cato was a fixture and I love him too, but let us not pretend that stability is his strong suit. Maybe it's because as much as I like the lizards here, it's hard to imagine getting so pissed off over what I view, in the end, as some pixels on a screen as to leave. I just can't imagine letting one individual personality determine whether or not I'm going to post anymore. I find such impulsive displays difficult to respect.
Was thinking EXACTLY the same thing.
| 465 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:59:55pm |
re: #459 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Can you acknowledge that its unfair at least to slot new people into old conversations? They often don't match up right.
Thats why I hated the troll hammer so much. People would post it to folks who weren't saying anything that it disputed.
I understand it, but I don't have to like it :p
| 466 |
Ojoe Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:00:09pm |
| 467 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:00:15pm |
re: #459 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
And that's... okay.
-Al Franken
| 468 |
goddamnedfrank Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:00:39pm |
re: #462 windsagio
I'm in your corner, but let me say this: There is such a thing as winning gracefully. You might do well to drop it now as well.
| 469 |
allegro Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:01:19pm |
re: #460 BryanS
Some fanatical circles in Iran (their president among them) seriously discuss how nuking Isreal would destroy them in one fell swoop, and that it would be worth the collateral damage to be finally rid of their enemy they hate so much.
Bomb, bomb, bomb.... bomb bomb Iran...
Not disagreeing with you, just sayin...
| 470 |
b_Snark Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:01:44pm |
re: #357 Stonemason
But the chart...the chart...it said 20%...
The wars are costing >3 trillion.
That makes it closer to 20%
| 471 |
Stanghazi Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:01:45pm |
re: #417 SanFranciscoZionist
I wouldn't, though. I would say that those 'edge cases' have considerable influence in the left-wing and progressive communities, considerable funding, and have managed to make their agenda part of the agenda of many, many other organizations.
It is still not unusual for there to be serious debate in some circles about whether the state of Israel should continue to exist.
So I think many of us react the way we do, not because OMG, we can't handle any opposing viewpoints, but because we see people parroting bad information from bad sources, and thinking that they're being terribly groundbreaking to suggest that 'maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle'.
And elsewhere, we see people deliberately passing horrible information, and calling for the boycott and ultimate destruction of Israel.
SFZ, this is one of the reasons I'm here, to get directed away from the bullshit being passed around. I read Haaretz every day now. Before anyone bitches, I'm a lefty here, why wouldn't I read the lefty press in Israel?
I hope you don't give up on us infidels (maybe ignorant on facts, but seeing it through a different lens) I, at least, appreciate every point you post.
| 472 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:01:46pm |
re: #395 McSpiff
That last point is key. My generation has never questioned the existence of Israel. Its been a constant for us. I've seen Israel attacked, I've seen Jews murdered all over the globe but I've never had to seriously consider a world without Israel as a Jewish homeland.
My son is your age, maybe a couple of years older, and he doesn't take the existence of Israel as a given and a constant.
But, he was in the IDF, so maybe he knows a teeny bit more than you.
| 473 |
ShaunP Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:02:04pm |
re: #466 Ojoe
re: #453 BryanS
You have to be seriously out of touch with the Creator to commit the things that the Nazis committed.
God is love after all.
If you go for other things the results are not as good, and sometimes a lot worse.
There were plenty of good Christians lynching blacks in the south. And yes, I think they were seriously out of touch with their creator...
| 474 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:02:10pm |
re: #417 SanFranciscoZionist
I wouldn't, though. I would say that those 'edge cases' have considerable influence in the left-wing and progressive communities, considerable funding, and have managed to make their agenda part of the agenda of many, many other organizations.
It is still not unusual for there to be serious debate in some circles about whether the state of Israel should continue to exist.
So I think many of us react the way we do, not because OMG, we can't handle any opposing viewpoints, but because we see people parroting bad information from bad sources, and thinking that they're being terribly groundbreaking to suggest that 'maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle'.
And elsewhere, we see people deliberately passing horrible information, and calling for the boycott and ultimate destruction of Israel.
Exactly. Right on point. It drives me nuts reading the same leftwing talking points over and over. Especially when such points litter the Internet (Max Blumenthal, Huff Post, IndyBay, plenty of feminists and atheists are anti-Israel for dumb reasons, etc.)
| 475 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:02:13pm |
re: #468 goddamnedfrank
To be frank, for the first time on this blog, I'm really pissed.
Trying to rein it in, make light of it, but then I see something (like being blamed for something beyond my control) and "BLAMMO", the hurtfulness comes out.
That being said, I'll gladly drop it if everyone else does :)
| 476 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:02:22pm |
re: #460 BryanS
And at any moment or time, if Isreal were proven to be vulnerable to successful attack, it would cease to exist.
Some fanatical circles in Iran (their president among them) seriously discuss how nuking Isreal would destroy them in one fell swoop, and that it would be worth the collateral damage to be finally rid of their enemy they hate so much.
Now that is an extraordinaire situation, absolutely. And its the reason I think Iran should be stopped before it reaches the point that that becomes a reality. But to be truthfully honest with the Lizards here, my gut says that the IDF will do what must be done, Iran will cease to be a threat for the foreseeable future, some other Arab state will step up to the plate to be Israel's #1 enemy (to get the prestige that comes with) and the cycle will repeat.
| 477 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:02:56pm |
re: #463 Stonemason
Which one? AGW? Evolution? Tea Parties?
One only sees an echo chamber when one is on the outside, I have learned that the hard way, here, by sitting back, reading, understanding, and realizing that I can disagree with things in a mature manner.
You (and other posters) seem to turn the Israel threads into attacks on the intellectual honesty of those who disagree with you. I have seen so many posts that accuse other posters of not thinking 'clearly' on this subject, which is just bunk.
I'll add to this, as someone who generally likes and gets along with Windsagio--you spend more time in these threads telling everyone how closed-minded they are, and being skeptical than offering hard facts and real ideas.
You'd get farther with the hard facts and the real ideas. Some folks, yes, will just shut you out, but that's true about most of what we talk about.
| 479 |
goddamnedfrank Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:03:33pm |
re: #475 windsagio
To be frank, for the first time on this blog, I'm really pissed.
Trying to rein it in, make light of it, but then I see something (like being blamed for something beyond my control) and "BLAMMO", the hurtfulness comes out.
That being said, I'll gladly drop it if everyone else does :)
Grace is never contingent on the actions of others.
Just sayin'.
| 480 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:03:42pm |
re: #472 Alouette
It makes a certain sense to me that an Orthodox Jew (I'm remembering that right, right?) would see the subject differently.
| 482 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:04:23pm |
re: #479 goddamnedfrank
Dammit, quit shaming me!
Yer right tho', I'll go first :)
You're a good man, Gungafrank!
| 483 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:04:32pm |
re: #461 researchok
That is most commendable. Sadly, the UN and much of the international community is not so enlightened.
Well, thank you kindly.
re: #472 Alouette
My son is your age, maybe a couple of years older, and he doesn't take the existence of Israel as a given and a constant.
But, he was in the IDF, so maybe he knows a teeny bit more than you.
O, I'm writing from a completely North American, gentile, non-Israeli perspective. I suspect even living in Israel for a short time would remove any such illusions. I'm not saying the perspective I've presented reflects reality in any way shape or form, merely that the perspective exists.
| 484 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:04:42pm |
re: #435 Spare O'Lake
I'm sure people are greatly comforted by the smugness and hateful ignorance of those who pretend that Israel's very existence is not seriously denied by its neighbours, and who pretend that the UN is not riddled with anti-Semitism.
It's that smugness that also boils my blood. Add a few stupid emoticons to that and I want to....
Anyway, well said Spare.
| 485 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:04:50pm |
re: #471 Stanley Sea
SFZ, this is one of the reasons I'm here, to get directed away from the bullshit being passed around. I read Haaretz every day now. Before anyone bitches, I'm a lefty here, why wouldn't I read the lefty press in Israel?
I hope you don't give up on us infidels (maybe ignorant on facts, but seeing it through a different lens) I, at least, appreciate every point you post.
I read Ha'aretz! I figure that if I read about it in Ha'aretz, JPost, and Ynetnews, I have some clue as to what really happened.
| 486 |
BryanS Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:04:50pm |
re: #466 Ojoe
re: #453 BryanS
You have to be seriously out of touch with the Creator to commit the things that the Nazis committed.
God is love after all.
If you go for other things the results are not as good, and sometimes a lot worse.
I am seriously out of touch with the "creator" and am doing just fine. I'm also out of touch with the Yaweh, Jesus, Vishnu, Zoroaster, Buddha, the tooth fairy, and Mr Snuffleupagus .If you're in touch with them, tell 'em I said hi .
| 487 |
Targetpractice Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:05:14pm |
re: #455 researchok
What viewpoint makes any of those things acceptable and morally equal to our way of life and morality?
Those are the key words: "Our way of life and morality." Who's to say, 50 years from now, that things we take for granted now won't be viewed in the same light? Or go to the worst slums of any third world nation you wish to name, where people scrape together meager lives at best, and ask them if such things are so cut and dry.
There's a reason that the saying "History is written by the victors" exists.
| 488 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:05:19pm |
re: #422 McSpiff
I agree with you that its only stable because Israel and the Israelis work tirelessly to ensure its stable. But truthfully, I have an easier time imagining Belgium ceasing to be a nation than Israel. But that's 100% my own basis. And I would never, ever, ever suggest that Israel is somehow "over defending" itself.
The problem is often obfuscated. I have no issue with anyone who criticizes Israeli policy. I have plenty I disagree with.
The issue occurs when critics of Israel and Israeli policy adopt a pro Palestinian posture.
The Palestinians have a long and well documented history of racism, bigotry and hate- and that is before their well documented calls to genocide. Palestinian and Arab world media are replete with examples of their aforementioned, day an and day out.
Palestinian and Arab world school curriculum reflect bigotry and racism of the most vile sort and that same bigotry and racism is often preached from the pulpit.
Not approving of Israeli policies is one thing. Not agreeing and adopting pro Palestinian positions is quite another,
| 490 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:06:31pm |
re: #480 windsagio
It makes a certain sense to me that an Orthodox Jew (I'm remembering that right, right?) would see the subject differently.
Why? The early founders of Israel were mostly staunch secularists.
| 491 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:06:38pm |
Did anybody here know that Charles Krauthammer is paralyzed?
I just learned it and am freaking flummoxed.
| 492 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:07:02pm |
re: #491 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Did anybody here know that Charles Krauthammer is paralyzed?
I just learned it and am freaking flummoxed.
Yup.
| 493 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:07:15pm |
re: #477 SanFranciscoZionist
I kinda come from the position that if we don't overcome this basic difference there can be no discussion of facts, because the facts look different from different positions.
You're right that it might be a little counterproductive, but even on the facts, you get lambasted.
Like the thing last thread. There were very few facts. There was, however a ton of speculation presented as fact. What do you do with that?
| 494 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:07:19pm |
re: #446 Stanley Sea
Yeah, we wish. Seems like a lot of bashing of the other view takes place.
And then the blame of a loved poster leaving is on these bashees.
Sorry, that pisses me off. Us vs. them. Old vs. new
bullshit vs. bullshit
Disagreement is not bashing.
The other stuff - name-calling, lack of respect toward each other - many folks here do it, it goes both ways. I choose to scroll and ignore.
| 496 |
Nimed Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:07:23pm |
re: #475 windsagio
To be frank, for the first time on this blog, I'm really pissed.
Trying to rein it in, make light of it, but then I see something (like being blamed for something beyond my control) and "BLAMMO", the hurtfulness comes out.
That being said, I'll gladly drop it if everyone else does :)
To be honest, you're kind of being too harsh (and frank too) in the last couple of comments. If you want to vent a little and need a punching bag, we can always do the laggy chat room thing again. But it has to be the laggy chat for the mystique.
| 497 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:07:25pm |
re: #488 researchok
The problem is often obfuscated. I have no issue with anyone who criticizes Israeli policy. I have plenty I disagree with.
The issue occurs when critics of Israel and Israeli policy adopt a pro Palestinian posture.
The Palestinians have a long and well documented history of racism, bigotry and hate- and that is before their well documented calls to genocide. Palestinian and Arab world media are replete with examples of their aforementioned, day an and day out.
Palestinian and Arab world school curriculum reflect bigotry and racism of the most vile sort and that same bigotry and racism is often preached from the pulpit.
Not approving of Israeli policies is one thing. Not agreeing and adopting pro Palestinian positions is quite another,
Again, agreed completely. This goes in the same category as questioning Israel's right to exist. That passes from somewhat excusable ignorance into deliberate misinformation and hate.
| 498 |
prairiefire Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:07:45pm |
re: #395 McSpiff
I see where we differ in perceptions. Looking at a map, I do not see the impenetrability of Israel, at all.
| 499 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:07:51pm |
| 500 |
HappyWarrior Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:08:04pm |
re: #495 Ojoe
From a recent accident?
Nah, he's been for some time now. I'm forgetting what happened at the moment. I wanna say it was a car accident.
| 501 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:08:13pm |
re: #495 Ojoe
From his first year in Medical School.
| 502 |
Targetpractice Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:08:23pm |
re: #465 windsagio
Can you acknowledge that its unfair at least to slot new people into old conversations? They often don't match up right.
Thats why I hated the troll hammer so much. People would post it to folks who weren't saying anything that it disputed.
I understand it, but I don't have to like it :p
I'll acknowledge that some of us still have a tendency to shoot first and ask questions later. But sometimes there's a good reason for it.
| 503 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:08:26pm |
re: #490 SanFranciscoZionist
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Israel being there an important sector of the more conservative forms of the religion? I was under the impression that that was a major driving force behind some of the more controversial settlements.
| 504 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:08:31pm |
re: #500 HappyWarrior
Nah, he's been for some time now. I'm forgetting what happened at the moment. I wanna say it was a car accident.
Diving accident.
| 505 |
Stanghazi Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:08:36pm |
re: #441 Spare O'Lake
You are dirt.
You? My vision of the American right wing. All encompassed.
'cept you live in Canada.
| 506 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:08:39pm |
re: #488 researchok
. . .
The issue occurs when critics of Israel and Israeli policy adopt a pro Palestinian posture.The Palestinians have a long and well documented history of racism, bigotry and hate- and that is before their well documented calls to genocide. Palestinian and Arab world media are replete with examples of their aforementioned, day an and day out.
Palestinian and Arab world school curriculum reflect bigotry and racism of the most vile sort and that same bigotry and racism is often preached from the pulpit.
Not approving of Israeli policies is one thing. Not agreeing and adopting pro Palestinian positions is quite another,
BINGO.
| 507 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:08:42pm |
re: #448 researchok
Bigotry is not just stupid. It is deadly.
Minorities, women, gays and religious adherents are proof of that.
As for the benevolent tyrant, his actions may indeed be moral- for a time. Inevitably, tyrants of all stripes will behave in an immoral fashion.
Really? That's a great example of the "everybody knows" fallacy of debate. In fact, there are numerous examples of benevolent tyrannies. The Caliphs of Spain are probably the best example. They ran the country peacefully for over 600 years and after they got thrown out the Inquisition began. The Emperors during the Pax Romana (well, many of them) are another example.
| 508 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:08:45pm |
| 511 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:09:07pm |
re: #502 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Pff, I'm never, ever guilty of that.
| 512 |
Nimed Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:09:20pm |
re: #491 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Did anybody here know that Charles Krauthammer is paralyzed?
I just learned it and am freaking flummoxed.
Oh yeah. It happened a long time ago -- he was still a college student IIRC.
| 513 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:09:26pm |
re: #491 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Did anybody here know that Charles Krauthammer is paralyzed?
I just learned it and am freaking flummoxed.
I had not been aware. Is this recent, or has he been paralyzed for a long time?
| 514 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:09:46pm |
re: #513 SanFranciscoZionist
I had not been aware. Is this recent, or has he been paralyzed for a long time?
Long time.
| 515 |
Targetpractice Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:09:52pm |
re: #511 windsagio
Pff, I'm never, ever guilty of that.
Me neither. If I shot'em, they probably deserved it. I'm sure I'll come up with a good reason later.
/
| 518 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:10:16pm |
re: #509 Ojoe
He's dead fortunately
I'm just saying that a man can be deeply religious, and still do deeply horrific things...
| 520 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:10:29pm |
re: #493 windsagio
I kinda come from the position that if we don't overcome this basic difference there can be no discussion of facts, because the facts look different from different positions.
Yeah, this is where I start to get woozy.
Yes, I'm sure they do, but can you get a little more specific or somethin'?
| 521 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:10:59pm |
re: #497 McSpiff
Again, agreed completely. This goes in the same category as questioning Israel's right to exist. That passes from somewhat excusable ignorance into deliberate misinformation and hate.
That is absolutely true.
Nations come into existence by compact of by way of conflict. The UN portioned Israel in 1947. The Arabs attacked. Israel's legitimacy as a nation has been forged both by compact and conflict.
| 522 |
BryanS Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:11:02pm |
re: #491 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Did anybody here know that Charles Krauthammer is paralyzed?
I just learned it and am freaking flummoxed.
Well...yeah. Ever see him on TV? You probably picked up something strange about his lack of body language without putting a finger on it, but it's not too hidden.
| 523 |
HappyWarrior Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:11:40pm |
The thing I look at as far as Israel and her neighbors go is the history. I know that as SFZ just pointed out that the founders of Israel were secularists and some of them were even socialists. I also know that many Nazi war criminals fled to the Middle East and helped those regimes try to destroy Israel. Conversely I know that many liberals at the time were strong defenders of Israel. Hell, I believe RFK was killed because of supporting Israel in the Six Days War. I've also seen Hamas propaganda against Israel namely that Pioneers of Tomorrow. I realize that Israel isn't perfect but it is miles ahead of its enemies on many issues.
| 524 |
Stonemason Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:12:03pm |
re: #470 b_sharp
The wars are costing >3 trillion.
That makes it closer to 20%
I saw a 10 trillion number the other day, not sure where...20% is out of line, 10% maybe, 12% on the outside.
Not that any of it is a good thing, the Debt is huge, the Deficit is huge, and no one seems to understand that we need to get spending under control. Raising taxes is not going to fix it, it will make it worse.
If Congress can raise a little and cut a lot, that would help. What I see happening though is raising a lot and cutting not at all.
| 525 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:12:05pm |
re: #458 windsagio
Because dissent is strongly suppressed on that issue.
Like I said above, you can't have a remotely dissenting pov on the subject without being fiercely attacked. Part of the reason for this is because there was effectively no dissent for so long, people get used to it.
The other part is that, well, Its a very important subject to some people.
Dissent is not "suppressed". It is debated. Does the debate get heated? Of course it does. It goes to the core of many peoples' beliefs. But you flippant attitude is not helpful in that debate. That is some serious shit, and the last thing people want to see is some youngling posting "Whatever, get over it."
| 526 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:13:46pm |
I hope y'all forgive me in the future for bringing Charles Krauthammer's situation up.
Just got a paralyzed boyfriend/fiance/son-in-law and am clinging onto every strand of "well, it's not the end, ya know!" sanity I can gather.
| 527 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:13:48pm |
re: #498 prairiefire
I see where we differ in perceptions. Looking at a map, I do not see the impenetrability of Israel, at all.
Israel is surrounded by neighbors that would like to redraw that map in short order. Its one of the few (only?) countries in that situation. However, I also see that Israel is smart. They've learned from tragedy. They continue to outsmart their enemies. Its only through constant vigilance they maintain. However Israel does not resemble a country at war the way that many people think of. Maybe that was more my point?
Its almost similar to South Korea in my mind.
| 528 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:13:55pm |
re: #524 Stonemason
I saw a 10 trillion number the other day, not sure where...20% is out of line, 10% maybe, 12% on the outside.
Not that any of it is a good thing, the Debt is huge, the Deficit is huge, and no one seems to understand that we need to get spending under control. Raising taxes is not going to fix it, it will make it worse.
If Congress can raise a little and cut a lot, that would help. What I see happening though is raising a lot and cutting not at all.
Raising taxes is not going to fix it, it will make it worse.
Would you say tax cuts pay for themselves then?
| 529 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:14:12pm |
re: #522 BryanS
Not really. But I'm dumber than a sack of stones.
| 530 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:14:39pm |
re: #520 SanFranciscoZionist
OK, for example:
Put a Kos'er and a freeper in the same room chatting. They'll both throw tons of 'facts' and 'sources' at each other, and none of it will matter, because they absolutely refuse to admit each other's sources. They both are absolutely sure they have the 'facts', but there's no possibility of any discussion.
It can be like that with the Israel discussions too.
| 531 |
Stanghazi Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:14:42pm |
re: #452 windsagio
Exactly.
Let me repeat again. Cato harassed me and chain-downdinged me for over a month, being warned several times in the process (not to mention how he treated Mandy :p).
Ice asked me to be careful around him because he was 'having a tough time', and I did my damndest to be careful with him and give him a lot of room.
So in the end what happens? Its still my fault that he decides he's gonna quit in a drunken rage.
bullshit.
They diminish Cato by blaming you. Oooh Windy! That terror. Watch out folks!
Everyone has a reason. I cannot deal with blamers and complainers.
| 532 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:15:10pm |
re: #507 austin_blue
Really? That's a great example of the "everybody knows" fallacy of debate. In fact, there are numerous examples of benevolent tyrannies. The Caliphs of Spain are probably the best example. They ran the country peacefully for over 600 years and after they got thrown out the Inquisition began. The Emperors during the Pax Romana (well, many of them) are another example.
And where did the caliphs of Spain end up?
Further, they were not as benevolent as many would have you believe. See Andrew Bostom's book, The Legacy of Jihad. Islamic Holy War and the Fate of Non-Muslims.
| 533 |
allegro Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:15:11pm |
re: #524 Stonemason
I saw a 10 trillion number the other day, not sure where...20% is out of line, 10% maybe, 12% on the outside.
I suspect that if the entire cost was considered, as someone pointed out above, of the returned disabled young veterans who will be on disability for life along with their health care costs, etc., that 10 trillion number may not be far from the mark.
| 534 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:15:37pm |
re: #525 austin_blue
what about being called 'fucking stupid' or a jew-hater?
Is that not an attempt to supress through bullying?
| 535 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:15:57pm |
re: #491 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Did anybody here know that Charles Krauthammer is paralyzed?
I just learned it and am freaking flummoxed.
I had no idea either.
I mean, I read excellent pieces like this and I get lost in the words and think of nothing else. Had you not brought it up now, I probably would have never known.
| 536 |
BryanS Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:16:09pm |
re: #524 Stonemason
I saw a 10 trillion number the other day, not sure where...20% is out of line, 10% maybe, 12% on the outside.
Not that any of it is a good thing, the Debt is huge, the Deficit is huge, and no one seems to understand that we need to get spending under control. Raising taxes is not going to fix it, it will make it worse.
If Congress can raise a little and cut a lot, that would help. What I see happening though is raising a lot and cutting not at all.
But doesn't all that spending create jobs? Just putting on my Keynsian hat for the moment. It is curious how the biggest proponents of spending in whatever inefficient way possible vast sums of money then turn around and use the deficit to bash the war.
| 537 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:16:38pm |
re: #503 windsagio
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Israel being there an important sector of the more conservative forms of the religion? I was under the impression that that was a major driving force behind some of the more controversial settlements.
Some of the settlers have deep ideological ideas about the settlements and are also observant, yes. Some very Orthodox people are not supporters of the settlements. Some secularists are greatly in favor of the settlements. And some of the settlements are full of young families who are looking for cheap housing.
Yes, there's a religious/nationalist element of society, but assuming that an American Orthodox Jew thinks differently than an American non-Orthodox Jew because of that is getting into deep waters.
A little like my assuming that every pious Iranian wants to blow up Israel, because hell, Ahmedinejad is a Muslim, and HE does.
Now, let me throw something back for you to look at. You write "Israel being there an important factor..."
We don't talk like that about any other sixty-something stable democracy on Earth, no matter what it's land problems or border disputes. Only about Israel do we talk like that, as though it could be there or not be there, without some enormous genocidal tragedy having taken place. And that's what gets my back up.
Gotta go, BBIAB.
| 538 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:16:44pm |
re: #535 eclectic infidel
Flummoxed. S'what I'm sayin'.
| 539 |
Nimed Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:16:49pm |
re: #419 reine.de.tout
Wind has a tendency to simply point and laugh at other points of view.
I scroll on past.Many here, including LVQ, pointed to actual events and actions that cause them to believe the UN is anti-Israel. I think if Wind would give the same sort of evidence otherwise, instead of pointing and giggling, it would be a better discussion.
Sorry reine, somehow I didn't see your post until now. We can discuss if the UN is anti-Israel or not. I believe it's very misleading to treat the UN as a very cohesive organization with a single agenda regarding Israel (or pretty much anything else, for that matter). For instance, "the UN" acknowledged several violations of Resolution 1701 perpetrated by Lebanese forces. Why would they do that if they are that anti-Israel?
More to the point and coming back to this incident, the reasoning "the UN is anti-Israel, therefore the blue helmets were in on it" is very, very faulty IMO.
| 540 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:18:30pm |
re: #537 SanFranciscoZionist
I admit I'm out of my depth, but I'd imagine it'd be very different from someone from another culture altogether (unless there's another way I'm confused about Spiff).
| 541 |
b_Snark Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:18:31pm |
re: #370 researchok
Yes- and it is incumbent upon us to elevate murder to an absolute!
As to your other remark, are you implying those absolutes ought to temporary? That we ought not defend them? Are you saying we ought not intervene where those absolutes are not accepted??
Don't jump to conclusions and please don't put words into my mouth.
If you can't discuss this objectively then the discussion won't get too far.
That said, the moral values we find important right now should be both universal and permanent. I would defend them if someone tried to change them. However, intervention itself, as a moral value, should not be an absolute nor a universal but in some cases it is practical and even necessary.
| 542 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:18:53pm |
re: #536 BryanS
But doesn't all that spending create jobs? Just putting on my Keynsian hat for the moment. It is curious how the biggest proponents of spending in whatever inefficient way possible vast sums of money then turn around and use the deficit to bash the war.
It probably creates jobs, but not as many jobs as could be created if we spent the money elsewhere.
Do you recall what they said in 1984?
Spending money on war leads to governments funneling money into something with no real lasting benefit.
A road or bridge gives people place to drive for years, a tank or helicopter is a lot of taxpayer money going up in smoke when it gets blown up....
| 543 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:18:55pm |
re: #525 austin_blue
Dissent is not "suppressed". It is debated. Does the debate get heated? Of course it does. It goes to the core of many peoples' beliefs. But you flippant attitude is not helpful in that debate. That is some serious shit, and the last thing people want to see is some youngling posting "Whatever, get over it."
Great way to put it, Austin.
| 544 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:19:07pm |
FWIW...
This is the live thread.
| 545 |
Stanghazi Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:19:24pm |
re: #459 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Again, you have to take into consideration that you're not the first to come here and take issue with Israel's actions or the support of those actions. Especially back in the ol' days, we had many trolls who would sit here for hours and meet even the most detailed, unbiased arguments in Israel's favor with accusations that we were all "racists," "Zionists," "Nazis," and so forth. They could not be debated in a civil manner, could offer nothing beyond well-used talking points, and would stoop to personal attacks when pressed to back up their arguments.
I'm not trying to make excuses, I'm trying to point out that the LGF of today and the LGF of 6 years ago are as culturally divided as the modern era and the Wild West.
Good post. But don't paint people by the perceptions of the past.
| 546 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:19:43pm |
re: #544 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Lotsa emotional energy to burn off >>
| 547 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:19:46pm |
re: #534 windsagio
I slipped off for supper without saying "bye." Anyway, I'm back... anything settled?
| 548 |
prairiefire Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:20:05pm |
re: #403 Walter L. Newton
She said "Anyone in touch with Bagua", perhaps meaning as a more generaly directed question to the blog.
Stanley, let go of what that manipulative man posted about exchanging messages with lizards.
More poison.
| 550 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:20:20pm |
re: #547 Walter L. Newton
I'm gonna quit cussing out the MIA Cato. Everything else is still up in the air :p
| 551 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:20:23pm |
re: #540 windsagio
I admit I'm out of my depth, but I'd imagine it'd be very different from someone from another culture altogether (unless there's another way I'm confused about Spiff).
It also bears remembering that there are profound differences between fundamentalist ideologies.
What makes a Muslim fundamentalist is very different than what makes a Jewish fundamentalist.
You are right to note the nuances.
| 552 |
BryanS Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:20:49pm |
re: #542 jamesfirecat
It probably creates jobs, but not as many jobs as could be created if we spent the money elsewhere.
Do you recall what they said in 1984?
Spending money on war leads to governments funneling money into something with no real lasting benefit.
A road or bridge gives people place to drive for years, a tank or helicopter is a lot of taxpayer money going up in smoke when it gets blown up...
I wish we spent tha vast majority of money on infrastructure. Long hall electrical transport is not only needed today. If ever we want to consider alternative sources form fossil fuels more long haul transport of electrical power will be needed.
| 554 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:20:53pm |
re: #547 Walter L. Newton
I slipped off for supper without saying "bye." Anyway, I'm back... anything settled?
Nope, the exchange of fire continues unabated. But I finally got my PC working right, so I can at least and my own words to the fray.
| 555 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:21:12pm |
re: #550 windsagio
I'm gonna quit cussing out the MIA Cato. Everything else is still up in the air :p
Ok... good start... now kiss me.
| 556 |
Targetpractice Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:21:20pm |
re: #530 windsagio
OK, for example:
Put a Kos'er and a freeper in the same room chatting. They'll both throw tons of 'facts' and 'sources' at each other, and none of it will matter, because they absolutely refuse to admit each other's sources. They both are absolutely sure they have the 'facts', but there's no possibility of any discussion.
It can be like that with the Israel discussions too.
The difference I've noticed between LGF and echo chambers like FR and (somewhat) partisan sites like DK is that, when faced with solid evidence that contradicts his argument, a lizard will either correct himself and/or acknowledge his fault. If he refuses to, he's liable to get his ass kicked black and blue by other lizards until he either does so or simply drops the argument. You will not tend to see the same situation in the other two sites, with infrequent exceptions.
| 557 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:21:24pm |
re: #547 Walter L. Newton
I slipped off for supper without saying "bye." Anyway, I'm back... anything settled?
The word in English is
NOPE!
| 558 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:21:28pm |
re: #551 researchok
But a non-fundamentalist will not put the same stress on say The Vatican, or Jerusalem, or Mecca that a fundamentalist of the appropriate sect would. That was the point of my post.
| 559 |
justaminute Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:21:42pm |
re: #472 Alouette
My son is your age, maybe a couple of years older, and he doesn't take the existence of Israel as a given and a constant.
But, he was in the IDF, so maybe he knows a teeny bit more than you.
You just zonked me on the last thread about bringing up my family. I wasn't there and I answered it there. Why is bringing up your son when you knocked me for bringing up mine?
| 562 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:21:56pm |
re: #552 BryanS
I wish we spent tha vast majority of money on infrastructure. Long hall electrical transport is not only needed today. If ever we want to consider alternative sources form fossil fuels more long haul transport of electrical power will be needed.
F*** yes I agree with you, we should be spending more money on infrastructure....
| 563 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:22:03pm |
re: #540 windsagio
I admit I'm out of my depth, but I'd imagine it'd be very different from someone from another culture altogether (unless there's another way I'm confused about Spiff).
McSpiff's Complete Idiot's Guide to Israeli politics (written by an expert idiot ;-)).
Its really fucking complicated. All of it. Seems like everything has at least 3 dozen reasons behind it. Seems like parties can back the same idea for completely contractary reasons at times.
| 564 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:22:26pm |
re: #532 researchok
And where did the caliphs of Spain end up?
Further, they were not as benevolent as many would have you believe. See Andrew Bostom's book, The Legacy of Jihad. Islamic Holy War and the Fate of Non-Muslims.
Yeah, the Jews of Iberia got a square deal after the Christians took over didn't they? They were persecuted as lackeys of the Moors and were either killed or exiled. Where do you think the vast majority of Sephardim in North Africa came from?
| 565 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:22:38pm |
re: #547 Walter L. Newton
I slipped off for supper without saying "bye." Anyway, I'm back... anything settled?
Yes. We are in agreement that Lindsey Lohan is an idiot.
Took some thrashing out but we got there.
| 566 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:22:44pm |
re: #554 Dark_Falcon
Nope, the exchange of fire continues unabated. But I finally got my PC working right, so I can at least and my own words to the fray.
How is the D&D thing coming?
I want to see what the GOP crazy looks like in the Monster Manual...
| 567 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:23:26pm |
re: #539 Nimed
Sorry reine, somehow I didn't see your post until now. We can discuss if the UN is anti-Israel or not. I believe it's very misleading to treat the UN as a very cohesive organization with a single agenda regarding Israel (or pretty much anything else, for that matter). For instance, "the UN" acknowledged several violations of Resolution 1701 perpetrated by Lebanese forces. Why would they do that if they are that anti-Israel?
More to the point and coming back to this incident, the reasoning "the UN is anti-Israel, therefore the blue helmets were in on it" is very, very faulty IMO.
I don't care to argue with you about the UN.
You were wondering why the pile-on, on windsagio.
There are facts (actual events that occur at the UN), there are assumptions (the blue-helmet guys in the photo discussed in the previous thread), and there are conclusions (opinions) that people have, usually based on facts.
LVQ presented his opinion, backed up by pointing to actual events that led him to conclusions that formed his opinion.
Windsagio just got pissed off, rather than explain his own opinions and the events that led him to whatever conclusions inform his opinions. We would be better served if he would do a bit more than just get pissed off when someone posts something that's uncomfortable for him to consider.
| 568 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:23:35pm |
re: #563 McSpiff
McSpiff's Complete Idiot's Guide to Israeli politics (written by an expert idiot ;-)).
Its really fucking complicated. All of it. Seems like everything has at least 3 dozen reasons behind it. Seems like parties can back the same idea for completely contractary reasons at times.
Welcome to the Tea Party.
| 569 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:23:58pm |
re: #556 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
...
I had a whole post written, but I"m gonna recuse myself because SFZ is right.
I can't discuss it without implicitly insulting a whole bunch of people on here.
| 570 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:24:09pm |
And in other news, "The Diary of Dorkus" is attacking Cato for saying he's walking away. That freak can't let go of someone once he's latched on.
| 571 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:24:58pm |
re: #565 researchok
Yes. We are in agreement that Lindsey Lohan is an idiot.
Took some thrashing out but we got there.
One of my funny lines I have been using at the check out stand, when customers have a magazine among the items, I pick up the magazine to scan it and say "you see that headline 'Lindsey Lohan leans to play chess in prison."
Problem is, I'm so "poker faced" and convincing, they believe me.
| 573 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:25:24pm |
re: #534 windsagio
what about being called 'fucking stupid' or a jew-hater?
Is that not an attempt to supress through bullying?
Not if you successfully refute such ad hominem attacks with facts.
Gird your loins, youngling! It's a harsh world out there.
| 574 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:25:53pm |
re: #571 Walter L. Newton
How Kroger must love you.
| 575 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:26:10pm |
re: #573 austin_blue
You can fight back, but its still an attempt to bully people into silence.
| 576 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:26:19pm |
| 577 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:26:23pm |
| 578 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:26:33pm |
| 579 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:27:03pm |
re: #577 Walter L. Newton
I do a show at 6:00pm and 12:00 midnight!
"And give it up for the lovely Walllltttteeerrrr"
| 580 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:27:03pm |
re: #566 jamesfirecat
How is the D&D thing coming?
I want to see what the GOP crazy looks like in the Monster Manual...
I've got the next installment fleshed out, and once things settle down a bit I'll post it. I also finally got my hotel reservation set for GenCon. Got a hotel within a mile of the Indiana Convention Center (that's actually a decent place to stay) for less than $300 for two nights.
| 581 |
Targetpractice Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:27:17pm |
re: #542 jamesfirecat
It probably creates jobs, but not as many jobs as could be created if we spent the money elsewhere.
Do you recall what they said in 1984?
Spending money on war leads to governments funneling money into something with no real lasting benefit.
A road or bridge gives people place to drive for years, a tank or helicopter is a lot of taxpayer money going up in smoke when it gets blown up...
Except so long as that tank/helicopter/rifle is in service, you got people working to produce more, to produce replacement parts, to repair them, and work on further upgrades or replacements. Even if all they're doing is sitting around, waiting on a war to break out, money is still going into maintaining them for when "war were declared."
| 582 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:27:23pm |
re: #564 austin_blue
Yeah, the Jews of Iberia got a square deal after the Christians took over didn't they? They were persecuted as lackeys of the Moors and were either killed or exiled. Where do you think the vast majority of Sephardim in North Africa came from?
What does that have to do with anything?
That the European Christians were hardly better makes no difference insofar as our exchange goes.
Now, as a matter of record, my antecedents were Sephardic Jews who ended up in Holland and then migrated to to England. Sephardic Jews were dispersed all over Europe (mostly Southern) as well as North Africa.
| 583 |
windsagio Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:27:38pm |
OK I seriously promised my friends that I'd play at least a little Starcraft 2 tonight, so I'm gonna have to bail, since work is soon.
You folks will have to get along without me for a while >>
| 584 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:27:54pm |
Really. Frozen beer still has an alcohol content.
G'night Knuckleheads!
| 585 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:28:07pm |
| 586 |
prairiefire Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:28:19pm |
re: #575 windsagio
You can fight back, but its still an attempt to bully people into silence.
Windy, you can come across like an Emery board at times.
| 587 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:28:52pm |
re: #583 windsagio
OK I seriously promised my friends that I'd play at least a little Starcraft 2 tonight, so I'm gonna have to bail, since work is soon.
You folks will have to get along without me for a while >>
We shall go into mourning in your absence.
Good luck with the game.
| 589 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:29:37pm |
re: #585 researchok
LOL- I meant the Mad Hatter's!
Whew! Excellent reference.
(Glad I deleted that "why I outta..." post...)
| 590 |
Nimed Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:29:38pm |
re: #563 McSpiff
McSpiff's Complete Idiot's Guide to Israeli politics (written by an expert idiot ;-)).
Its really fucking complicated. All of it. Seems like everything has at least 3 dozen reasons behind it. Seems like parties can back the same idea for completely contractary reasons at times.
You know, I really liked a couple of posts of yours in the last thread. When you have the time, you may want to have a look at this article by Peter Beinart. It's about the attitudes of American Jews of your generation toward the Israelo-Palestinian conflict.
[Link: www.nybooks.com...]
| 591 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:29:52pm |
re: #581 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Except so long as that tank/helicopter/rifle is in service, you got people working to produce more, to produce replacement parts, to repair them, and work on further upgrades or replacements. Even if all they're doing is sitting around, waiting on a war to break out, money is still going into maintaining them for when "war were declared."
Yes it is.
The question is, if we were to spend the money. If we spent it on stuff like roads and bridges at home, would the end result for the country be greater good between the money we pay the people to build it and the use we get out of it be of greater good to America then what we get out of a tank or helicopter.
A tank or helicopter does no good to America unless we're in a war and its in use, even if the process of building it is still good for America in that "paying people to dig a ditch" kind of way.
| 592 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:30:44pm |
re: #575 windsagio
You can fight back, but its still an attempt to bully people into silence.
Then pick a position, hold your ground, and defend it with proven facts. This is the way to respect, grasshopper.
| 593 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:31:28pm |
re: #592 austin_blue
Then pick a position, hold your ground, and defend it with proven facts. This is the way to respect, grasshopper.
I thought it was "Chipmunk?"
| 594 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:31:58pm |
re: #579 McSpiff
"And give it up for the lovely Walllttteeerrr"
"I'll be her all week, and don't forget to tip your bartender.."
| 595 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:32:00pm |
re: #591 jamesfirecat
Yes it is.
The question is, if we were to spend the money. If we spent it on stuff like roads and bridges at home, would the end result for the country be greater good between the money we pay the people to build it and the use we get out of it be of greater good to America then what we get out of a tank or helicopter.
A tank or helicopter does no good to America unless we're in a war and its in use, even if the process of building it is still good for America in that "paying people to dig a ditch" kind of way.
Actually, tanks and helos do us good by helping to prevents wars. The enemy can see our strength in our Apaches and M1A2s and will hesitate to attack us. If you wish for peace, prepare for war.
| 596 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:32:44pm |
re: #575 windsagio
You can fight back, but its still an attempt to bully people into silence.
Well, rest assured that on LGF you're not going to find yourself with a blocked account just because you take an opposing view. With that in mind, if you do stand up for yourself with facts, it is a positive way to stand up to bullying. Simply put, fire back with facts.
| 597 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:33:24pm |
re: #595 Dark_Falcon
Actually, tanks and helos do us good by helping to prevents wars. The enemy can see our strength in our Apaches and M1A2s and will hesitate to attack us. If you wish for peace, prepare for war.
Fair enough.
Like I said it's complicated, probably too complicated for me to figure out, as you'd need a team of economists and some HUGE computers, but my argument is as follows, military spending while stimulating, not all forms of stimulus are created equal, see Bush's Tax Cuts...
| 598 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:33:24pm |
re: #590 Nimed
You know, I really liked a couple of posts of yours in the last thread. When you have the time, you may want to have a look at this article by Peter Beinart. It's about the attitudes of American Jews of your generation toward the Israelo-Palestinian conflict.
[Link: www.nybooks.com...]
Just gave it a brief skim, but that looks extremely interesting. From my experience it definitely rings true (at least the first few sections).
| 599 |
Targetpractice Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:33:30pm |
re: #591 jamesfirecat
Yes it is.
The question is, if we were to spend the money. If we spent it on stuff like roads and bridges at home, would the end result for the country be greater good between the money we pay the people to build it and the use we get out of it be of greater good to America then what we get out of a tank or helicopter.
A tank or helicopter does no good to America unless we're in a war and its in use, even if the process of building it is still good for America in that "paying people to dig a ditch" kind of way.
Unfortunately, knowing what I know about government spending here in VA alone, I'm prone to believe that if we weren't spending the money we are on defense, we'd be spending it on anything but roads and bridges.
| 600 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:33:39pm |
re: #582 researchok
What does that have to do with anything?
That the European Christians were hardly better makes no difference insofar as our exchange goes.
Now, as a matter of record, my antecedents were Sephardic Jews who ended up in Holland and then migrated to to England. Sephardic Jews were dispersed all over Europe (mostly Southern) as well as North Africa.
You miss my point. The Christians were *infinitely* worse.
| 601 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:33:45pm |
re: #594 austin_blue
"I'll be her all week, and don't forget to tip your bartender.."
"I had a couple of requests while I was on my break... but I decided to come back anyway."
| 602 |
b_Snark Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:35:23pm |
re: #442 researchok
Please explain. I do not understand what you are trying to say.
A later post of yours gave me an insight into what you are saying. We aren't arguing the same thing. I arguing against any morals as being inherently absolute and you are arguing that there are some that we should treat as absolute, so in effect you are defining certain morals as being absolute.
Because our arguments aren't mutually exclusive we can both be right. There are indeed some moral values I would like to see as universal and absolute, I just do not believe any of them can be absolute, in your sense of the word, without being enforced by a tyranny.
| 603 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:35:42pm |
| 604 |
BryanS Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:35:46pm |
re: #600 austin_blue
You miss my point. The Christians
wereare *infinitely* worse.
There, corrected it for you. Still a lot of antisemitism in Europe.
| 605 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:36:20pm |
re: #597 jamesfirecat
Fair enough.
Like I said it's complicated, probably too complicated for me to figure out, as you'd need a team of economists and some HUGE computers, but my argument is as follows, military spending while stimulating, not all forms of stimulus are created equal, see Bush's Tax Cuts...
Defense spending is still money better spent than money for social programs. But that's one conservative's opinion (I also liked the tax cuts, especially when they saved my family a huge amount of inheritance tax).
| 606 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:36:25pm |
re: #522 BryanS
Well...yeah. Ever see him on TV? You probably picked up something strange about his lack of body language without putting a finger on it, but it's not too hidden.
I don't think I've ever seen him on TV, only read pieces by him.
| 607 |
BryanS Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:36:49pm |
re: #602 b_sharp
A later post of yours gave me an insight into what you are saying. We aren't arguing the same thing. I arguing against any morals as being inherently absolute and you are arguing that there are some that we should treat as absolute, so in effect you are defining certain morals as being absolute.
Because our arguments aren't mutually exclusive we can both be right. There are indeed some moral values I would like to see as universal and absolute, I just do not believe any of them can be absolute, in your sense of the word, without being enforced by a tyranny.
For some, that's where their religion fills the gap.
| 608 |
prairiefire Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:36:57pm |
re: #524 Stonemason
Let see what President Obama's debt commission recommends? After the mid terms, thank goodness.
| 609 |
BryanS Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:38:52pm |
re: #606 SanFranciscoZionist
I don't think I've ever seen him on TV, only read pieces by him.
He's a regular on Fox's Special Report and Sunday talk show.
| 610 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:39:04pm |
re: #526 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I hope y'all forgive me in the future for bringing Charles Krauthammer's situation up.
Just got a paralyzed boyfriend/fiance/son-in-law and am clinging onto every strand of "well, it's not the end, ya know!" sanity I can gather.
Jaysus, go right ahead! Lots of people here read Krauthammer, and it's an interesting thing to know, and YES, you're going to want some reassurance that people go on to have good, whole, happy, impressive lives after stuff like this happens.
John Hockenberry is a paraplegic journalist who wrote a very interesting memoir. Might want to look at it. He covered the Ayatollah's funeral--got a chance to go up over the crowd in a helicopter--no room for his wheelchair. He gave it to a random Iranian guy on the street who was chanting 'Death to America' with everyone else, but agreed to keep it for him, and was waiting with it when the helicopter came back.
| 611 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:39:26pm |
re: #530 windsagio
OK, for example:
Put a Kos'er and a freeper in the same room chatting. They'll both throw tons of 'facts' and 'sources' at each other, and none of it will matter, because they absolutely refuse to admit each other's sources. They both are absolutely sure they have the 'facts', but there's no possibility of any discussion.
It can be like that with the Israel discussions too.
True.
| 612 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:39:29pm |
re: #595 Dark_Falcon
Actually, tanks and helos do us good by helping to prevents wars. The enemy can see our strength in our Apaches and M1A2s and will hesitate to attack us. If you wish for peace, prepare for war.
Um.. Iraq?.. Afghanistan? Our superior supporting arms have certainly cowed those opposing us, eh?
In fact, the surge in Iraq worked because, at the same time we sent in more troops, the Sunni tribes agreed to work with us and stamp on the Sunni insurgents. The problem in Afghanistan is that we have yet to achieve that kind of buy-in from the Tribes. So the situation is still real dicey.
| 613 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:40:27pm |
re: #532 researchok
And where did the caliphs of Spain end up?
Further, they were not as benevolent as many would have you believe. See Andrew Bostom's book, The Legacy of Jihad. Islamic Holy War and the Fate of Non-Muslims.
If we're gonna start bashing the caliphs of Spain and saying they reflect Islam, we're gonna go down a long, bad road. Let's just say that the Christian monarchs of the day come off looking pretty horrific as well.
| 614 |
Nimed Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:40:44pm |
re: #567 reine.de.tout
I don't care to argue with you about the UN.
You were wondering why the pile-on, on windsagio.
There are facts (actual events that occur at the UN), there are assumptions (the blue-helmet guys in the photo discussed in the previous thread), and there are conclusions (opinions) that people have, usually based on facts. LVQ presented his opinion, backed up by pointing to actual events that led him to conclusions that formed his opinion.
See, that's what I meant. Now you're treating the UN like a physical location. The UN is an enormous organization AND an enormous forum. It also has very little power to do much of anything to enforce their Resolutions. If you don't want to discuss it, that's fine. I disagree with some of LVQ's conclusions, but I'm not talking about his posts anyway.
Windsagio just got pissed off, rather than explain his own opinions and the events that led him to whatever conclusions inform his opinions. We would be better served if he would do a bit more than just get pissed off when someone posts something that's uncomfortable for him to consider.
Did we read the same thread here? A LOT of people "got pissed off" before windsagio. Way more pissed off, and way more offensive.
| 615 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:40:46pm |
re: #559 justaminute
You just zonked me on the last thread about bringing up my family. I wasn't there and I answered it there. Why is bringing up your son when you knocked me for bringing up mine?
You can bring up your family and I can bring up mine.
| 616 |
Spare O'Lake Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:41:16pm |
If attempts to marginalize the defence of Israel's right to exist by being transparently dismissive, feigning boredom and being just plain rude and insulting without presenting facts or reasoned arguments...if this is the "final frontier" for some here, then I say that such people need to be treated like the creepy trolls that they are.
Good night.
| 617 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:42:14pm |
re: #610 SanFranciscoZionist
Jaysus, go right ahead! Lots of people here read Krauthammer, and it's an interesting thing to know, and YES, you're going to want some reassurance that people go on to have good, whole, happy, impressive lives after stuff like this happens.
John Hockenberry is a paraplegic journalist who wrote a very interesting memoir. Might want to look at it. He covered the Ayatollah's funeral--got a chance to go up over the crowd in a helicopter--no room for his wheelchair. He gave it to a random Iranian guy on the street who was chanting 'Death to America' with everyone else, but agreed to keep it for him, and was waiting with it when the helicopter came back.
This reminded me of something an Iranian friend told me, and I have no idea if its true. Apparently Persian is a very "poetic" language that tends to come across as rather extreme to non-native speakers. You don't just like the taste of something, you absolutely love it. You don't get annoyed at traffic, you say "death to traffic jams!".
Was he pulling my leg in an attempt to make his country look less crazy?
| 618 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:42:15pm |
re: #539 Nimed
Sorry reine, somehow I didn't see your post until now. We can discuss if the UN is anti-Israel or not. I believe it's very misleading to treat the UN as a very cohesive organization with a single agenda regarding Israel (or pretty much anything else, for that matter). For instance, "the UN" acknowledged several violations of Resolution 1701 perpetrated by Lebanese forces. Why would they do that if they are that anti-Israel?
More to the point and coming back to this incident, the reasoning "the UN is anti-Israel, therefore the blue helmets were in on it" is very, very faulty IMO.
As for that last, true, but the UN's general behavior toward Israel has been pretty comically awful. Not of a piece, but overall, pretty damn bad.
| 620 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:43:17pm |
re: #618 SanFranciscoZionist
As for that last, true, but the UN's general behavior toward Israel has been pretty comically awful. Not of a piece, but overall, pretty damn bad.
Would it be fair to say that a majority of the world treats Israel poorly and the UN is mainly a forum/vessel for that to flow through?
| 621 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:43:56pm |
re: #604 BryanS
There, corrected it for you. Still a lot of antisemitism in Europe.
Don't do that. Downding. It sidetracks the debate, and it's not clever. Since 1948, Muslim North Africa has purged its Jewish population. Anti-Semitism in Europe? Yes. But not like that.
| 622 |
b_Snark Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:44:29pm |
re: #447 Ojoe
Not irrelevant. The fanatical followers of Adolph Hitler were breaking that one.
I think you are broadening the definition of god a bit far. If you are saying that zealotry in any form is detrimental to society, I would agree with you. That doesn't mean it is an absolute.
By absolute I mean a value inherent in being human that is universal and doesn't change over time and through cultures.
We may be arguing about different definitions of absolute.
| 623 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:44:59pm |
re: #612 austin_blue
Um.. Iraq?.. Afghanistan? Our superior supporting arms have certainly cowed those opposing us, eh?
In fact, the surge in Iraq worked because, at the same time we sent in more troops, the Sunni tribes agreed to work with us and stamp on the Sunni insurgents. The problem in Afghanistan is that we have yet to achieve that kind of buy-in from the Tribes. So the situation is still real dicey.
Well, the AH-64s have been a great help in both places, and the M1A2s massive armor and firepower sometimes convince enemies to surrender or run before the shooting even starts. They play their part, and our enemies do fear our strength. That said, I'm not at all certain that what happened in Anbar can be replicated. The Sunnis of that province had a degree of communication with each other not found in southern Afghanistan (where even someone from the next valley can be seen as a foreigner). Further, Fallujah was a caravan town for centuries. Even at their most insular, the Sunnis of Iraq were (and still are) more aware of the world and able to deal with outsiders than most Pushtuns.
| 624 |
BryanS Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:45:32pm |
re: #617 McSpiff
This reminded me of something an Iranian friend told me, and I have no idea if its true. Apparently Persian is a very "poetic" language that tends to come across as rather extreme to non-native speakers. You don't just like the taste of something, you absolutely love it. You don't get annoyed at traffic, you say "death to traffic jams!".
Was he pulling my leg in an attempt to make his country look less crazy?
Interesting question. Any Persian speakers here? Learning Japanese, it was clear to me how the language influenced/reinforced culture. With so much politeness and honorific forms of words in it, it's no wonder they will resort to English at times when they need to swear. "You foolish person, you" just doesn't have the same zing as "you fucking retard".
| 625 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:46:47pm |
re: #621 austin_blue
Don't do that. Downding. It sidetracks the debate, and it's not clever. Since 1948, Muslim North Africa has purged its Jewish population. Anti-Semitism in Europe? Yes. But not like that.
Agreed. At times, Christians have treated Jews very badly. But in the post WWII world, it is Muslims who have done the worst.
| 626 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:47:42pm |
re: #558 windsagio
But a non-fundamentalist will not put the same stress on say The Vatican, or Jerusalem, or Mecca that a fundamentalist of the appropriate sect would. That was the point of my post.
I'm not a fundamentalist of any kind, but I put a fair amount of stress on Jerusalem.
| 627 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:47:50pm |
re: #623 Dark_Falcon
Well, the AH-64s have been a great help in both places, and the M1A2s massive armor and firepower sometimes convince enemies to surrender or run before the shooting even starts. They play their part, and our enemies do fear our strength. That said, I'm not at all certain that what happened in Anbar can be replicated. The Sunnis of that province had a degree of communication with each other not found in southern Afghanistan (where even someone from the next valley can be seen as a foreigner). Further, Fallujah was a caravan town for centuries. Even at their most insular, the Sunnis of Iraq were (and still are) more aware of the world and able to deal with outsiders than most Pushtuns.
It also helps that, unlike their Afghani brethren, they are literate and have some familiarity with technology. Wasn't ragging on you, my man, just saying that our supporting arms don't impress much of the Afghan resistance.
| 628 |
BryanS Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:48:00pm |
re: #620 McSpiff
Would it be fair to say that a majority of the world treats Israel poorly and the UN is mainly a forum/vessel for that to flow through?
Majority of countries, yes. If the UN didn't have the security council, we'd probably have votes to authorize the destruction of Israel by now. The general council is dominated by tin pot dictators who have all the time in the world to investigate Israeli human rights abuses, but no time whatsoever to consider what happened and still happens in Sudan.
| 629 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:48:35pm |
re: #624 BryanS
Interesting question. Any Persian speakers here? Learning Japanese, it was clear to me how the language influenced/reinforced culture. With so much politeness and honorific forms of words in it, it's no wonder they will resort to English at times when they need to swear. "You foolish person, you" just doesn't have the same zing as "you fucking retard".
That's what I was wondering. Now language doesn't explain the anti-semetism, holocaust denial, etc. I have absolutely no doubt that Iran wants to wipe Israel off the map. I've just had this great image of a cabbie in downtown Tehran screaming "Death to Traffic Lights!" out his window kind of thing.
| 630 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:48:39pm |
re: #564 austin_blue
Yeah, the Jews of Iberia got a square deal after the Christians took over didn't they? They were persecuted as lackeys of the Moors and were either killed or exiled. Where do you think the vast majority of Sephardim in North Africa came from?
The 'dismantling' of the 'myth' of benevolent Muslims rulers of the Middle Ages tends to overlook the horror that was Christian Europe at the time.
| 631 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:49:08pm |
re: #570 Dark_Falcon
And in other news, "The Diary of Dorkus" is attacking Cato for saying he's walking away. That freak can't let go of someone once he's latched on.
Fuckers.
| 632 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:49:32pm |
re: #628 BryanS
Majority of countries, yes. If the UN didn't have the security council, we'd probably have votes to authorize the destruction of Israel by now. The general council is dominated by tin pot dictators who have all the time in the world to investigate Israeli human rights abuses, but no time whatsoever to consider what happened and still happens in Sudan.
Yes, countries is a better word there, thank you.
| 633 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:50:03pm |
re: #582 researchok
What does that have to do with anything?
That the European Christians were hardly better makes no difference insofar as our exchange goes.
Now, as a matter of record, my antecedents were Sephardic Jews who ended up in Holland and then migrated to to England. Sephardic Jews were dispersed all over Europe (mostly Southern) as well as North Africa.
It does, in fact, make a difference. It establishes the standard of the day.
| 634 |
Stanghazi Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:50:19pm |
re: #573 austin_blue
Not if you successfully refute such ad hominem attacks with facts.
Gird your loins, youngling! It's a harsh world out there.
Sorry, hard to argue against someone calling you a jew hater.
| 635 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:50:20pm |
Obdicut, when you read this post please email me. Nic is blue. It's urgent.
| 636 |
BryanS Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:51:03pm |
re: #621 austin_blue
Don't do that. Downding. It sidetracks the debate, and it's not clever. Since 1948, Muslim North Africa has purged its Jewish population. Anti-Semitism in Europe? Yes. But not like that.
Yes, true. Anti-semetism in Europe isn't as bad as elsewhere now, or what it has been in the past. But don't underestimate the growing influence of nationalist/jew hating (and these days muslim hating as well) parties in Europe. I don't think that issue is unimportant or that pointing it out diminishes the problem of antisemitism elsewhere.
| 637 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:51:23pm |
re: #609 BryanS
He's a regular on Fox's Special Report and Sunday talk show.
Yes, but I don't watch Fox. Unless I am visiting my family in Louisiana, in which case I have no control over the TV.
| 638 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:52:14pm |
re: #627 austin_blue
It also helps that, unlike their Afghani brethren, they are literate and have some familiarity with technology. Wasn't ragging on you, my man, just saying that our supporting arms don't impress much of the Afghan resistance.
They don't cower before them, but they do respect their power. And the Predator and Reaper drones do scare the daylights out of the Taliban. The drones' ability to deliver death with no notice terrifies the enemy.
| 639 |
justaminute Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:52:45pm |
re: #624 BryanS
Interesting question. Any Persian speakers here? Learning Japanese, it was clear to me how the language influenced/reinforced culture. With so much politeness and honorific forms of words in it, it's no wonder they will resort to English at times when they need to swear. "You foolish person, you" just doesn't have the same zing as "you fucking retard".
I don't speak Farsi, but my husband has told me a thousand times that it is very, very hard to get an accurate translation from Farsi to English and visa versa. He's heard many translations done by Farsi translators that were done in English and the English translation was off same things translators due English to Farsi that he stated was incorrect.
| 640 |
BryanS Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:52:47pm |
re: #629 McSpiff
That's what I was wondering. Now language doesn't explain the anti-semetism, holocaust denial, etc. I have absolutely no doubt that Iran wants to wipe Israel off the map. I've just had this great image of a cabbie in downtown Tehran screaming "Death to Traffic Lights!" out his window kind of thing.
Fun image :)
| 641 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:53:46pm |
re: #605 Dark_Falcon
Defense spending is still money better spent than money for social programs. But that's one conservative's opinion (I also liked the tax cuts, especially when they saved my family a huge amount of inheritance tax).
Dark... nothing personal but are you aware of how stimulating unemployment spending is (I think that counts as a social program) because the people who get it can't afford to just sit on it?
| 642 |
prairiefire Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:54:25pm |
re: #420 Walter L. Newton
With some help for Harry Truman!
The Edward Jacobson Papers, the truman Library.[Link: www.trumanlibrary.org...]
Mr. Jacobson ws a close, Jewish friend of President Truman. Truman's wife, Bess, never let Mr. Jacobson take a step into her home in her life.
| 643 |
researchok Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:54:34pm |
re: #613 SanFranciscoZionist
If we're gonna start bashing the caliphs of Spain and saying they reflect Islam, we're gonna go down a long, bad road. Let's just say that the Christian monarchs of the day come off looking pretty horrific as well.
That was my point in another comment.
| 644 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:54:47pm |
re: #641 jamesfirecat
Dark... nothing personal but are you aware of how stimulating unemployment spending is (I think that counts as a social program) because the people who get it can't afford to just sit on it?
Well, the banks seem to be sitting on stimulus money just fine.
| 645 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:54:49pm |
re: #617 McSpiff
This reminded me of something an Iranian friend told me, and I have no idea if its true. Apparently Persian is a very "poetic" language that tends to come across as rather extreme to non-native speakers. You don't just like the taste of something, you absolutely love it. You don't get annoyed at traffic, you say "death to traffic jams!".
Was he pulling my leg in an attempt to make his country look less crazy?
No, actually that comes up in the book. Hockenberry asks the guy about the 'Death to America' chanting, and the dude is actually sort of offended that anyone would think that means he doesn't like Americans! He loves Americans! It's just the American government he's not crazy about. Americans get this, no? Of course Americans get this!
Hockenberry says no, he thinks most Americans feel attacked by this. The guy is incredulous.
You do speak much more dramatically in Farsi than in English. This is not to say that the government of Iran doesn't really hate the U.S., but some of the rhetoric is not as gonzo hating as it sounds when translated.
| 646 |
Interesting Times Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:56:56pm |
re: #605 Dark_Falcon
Defense spending is still money better spent than money for social programs.
How can you expect an impoverished, unhealthy or poorly-educated populace to properly defend itself?
| 647 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:57:16pm |
re: #620 McSpiff
Would it be fair to say that a majority of the world treats Israel poorly and the UN is mainly a forum/vessel for that to flow through?
Defining 'the world' in a political sense is pretty hard. I will say that a number of nations that really don't like Israel have managed to hold prominent positions in the UN, and that other nations have humored them for various reasons.
Weirdest thing I remember from the first Durban conference: a picture of two ladies from the Amazon rainforest, in traditional dress, holding signs about Israel being a racist oppressor.
And I'm thinking, hey, maybe these ladies have some bigger problems than the State of Israel...no?
| 648 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:57:22pm |
re: #645 SanFranciscoZionist
Ha alright, that basically confirms what I was told. I was just a little skeptical when someone tries to say that 'hate' really means 'we take issue with your foreign policy'.
Of course as you say, the government of Iran is very clear on its position with respect to America and Israel.
| 649 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:58:17pm |
re: #614 Nimed
Did we read the same thread here? A LOT of people "got pissed off" before windsagio. Way more pissed off, and way more offensive.
Perhaps so; but your initial question was about windsagio, so that's what I answered. If you want to talk about other people - well, figure out who you want to talk about and bring 'em up!
See, that's what I meant. Now you're treating the UN like a physical location. The UN is an enormous organization AND an enormous forum. It also has very little power to do much of anything to enforce their Resolutions. If you don't want to discuss it, that's fine. I disagree with some of LVQ's conclusions, but I'm not talking about his posts anyway.
I don't want to discuss it because others do it much more eloquently than I do; LVQ is one, and I basically agree with his conclusions.
The UN does indeed have a physical location; things do indeed happen there - resolutions are passed, votes are taken, etc. So . . . I'm a bit confused as to why it's a problem to discuss what happens at the UN's physical location. LVQ used some of those actions in forming his conclusions; I pointed out that he did so.
The UN is also an enormous organization, as you say. I don't think I've argued otherwise. I've basically, here, been responding to things you've said.
Where are you trying to go with this?
| 650 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:58:36pm |
re: #644 Dark_Falcon
Well, the banks seem to be sitting on stimulus money just fine.
I'll give you that some forms of social programs may not be that great, but to say all social programs aren't as stimulating as defense spending is just (to me) obviously wrong when we get (if my memory serves) something between a 1.5 and 2 to 1 return for the money we put into unemployments benefits spending.
| 651 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:58:54pm |
re: #621 austin_blue
Don't do that. Downding. It sidetracks the debate, and it's not clever. Since 1948, Muslim North Africa has purged its Jewish population. Anti-Semitism in Europe? Yes. But not like that.
A few years earlier, Christian Europe managed to kill 67% of its Jewish population, and see most of the rest of it out the door.
| 652 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Aug 3, 2010 8:00:23pm |
re: #646 publicityStunted
How can you expect an impoverished, unhealthy or poorly-educated populace to properly defend itself?
I don't, but I don't think that government can enrich a population, nor is it likely to make them healthier for most matters (there are some exceptions, such as epidemic diseases, that really do require government).
| 653 |
austin_blue Tue, Aug 3, 2010 8:00:25pm |
re: #651 SanFranciscoZionist
A few years earlier, Christian Europe managed to kill 67% of its Jewish population, and see most of the rest of it out the door.
Yup. 'Nuff said.
| 654 |
justaminute Tue, Aug 3, 2010 8:02:30pm |
re: #648 McSpiff
Some time when my husband is not working I hope this subject will come up and I will let my husband post under my name on this subject. But he's a really slow typist, so it would be a very long time for his answers to posts to come up.
| 655 |
b_Snark Tue, Aug 3, 2010 8:03:37pm |
Well, since I'm now arguing with myself, I might as well go play with myself.
| 656 |
McSpiff Tue, Aug 3, 2010 8:03:37pm |
re: #654 justaminute
Some time when my husband is not working I hope this subject will come up and I will let my husband post under my name on this subject. But he's a really slow typist, so it would be a very long time for his answers to posts to come up.
Any time he's free. Not even just this topic, anything on the topic of Iran that he feels is worth explaining I'd love to hear.
| 657 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 3, 2010 8:03:42pm |
re: #242 JasonA
Please follow in Cato's footsteps.
That twit couldn't fill one Cato shoe with both feet.
Cato, I'm saddened to see you go, even if I often disagreed. I like your style.
| 658 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 8:03:48pm |
re: #646 publicityStunted
How can you expect an impoverished, unhealthy or poorly-educated populace to properly defend itself?
They used to turn boys down for the Army because of illiteracy, underweight, and all kinds of health problems due to poverty.
These days it's extreme overweight.
A healthy population means a healthy army.
| 659 |
Nimed Tue, Aug 3, 2010 8:05:08pm |
re: #618 SanFranciscoZionist
As for that last, true, but the UN's general behavior toward Israel has been pretty comically awful. Not of a piece, but overall, pretty damn bad.
I agree with you here. The dynamics of the UN are pretty complicated, and I won't pretend to know much about it. A lot of anti-Israel sentiment simply comes from the awful composition of the Human Rights Council. Another part of it is the tendency of the peacekeeping forces to recruit locally. I'm surely there's a lot more to be said here. What IMO doesn't help is to treat the whole organization as a cabal of evil-doers that have the specific agenda of harming Israel.
Apart from all this, a very important point that is often neglected is that peacekeeping forces actually have very little legitimate power to do much of anything. For instance, they really can't stop Hezbollah from rearming, they can only report it. People also frequently forget that giving that kind of power to the blue helmets is essentially granting the UN the power to de facto occupy a sovereign nation. Incidentally, this is exactly the kind of stuff that is the object of the One World Government loons' paranoia.
| 660 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 3, 2010 8:05:09pm |
re: #647 SanFranciscoZionist
Defining 'the world' in a political sense is pretty hard. I will say that a number of nations that really don't like Israel have managed to hold prominent positions in the UN, and that other nations have humored them for various reasons.
Weirdest thing I remember from the first Durban conference: a picture of two ladies from the Amazon rainforest, in traditional dress, holding signs about Israel being a racist oppressor.
And I'm thinking, hey, maybe these ladies have some bigger problems than the State of Israel...no?
The Dalits from India were pretty hacked about the Palestinian presence at Durban, IIRC. One of their spokesmen said you couldn't find a patch of space to demonstrate about the situation of his people without the Palestinian supporters crashing in on you and making it about Israel.
| 661 |
BryanS Tue, Aug 3, 2010 8:06:02pm |
re: #655 b_sharp
Well, since I'm now arguing with myself, I might as well go play with myself.
too easy...:)
| 662 |
lostlakehiker Tue, Aug 3, 2010 8:07:00pm |
re: #95 eclectic infidel
Cato, invest in a little kitty, and when you get all stressed and want to rip the limbs off of a lefty twit , leave the computer and love the kitty. That's what I do.
Me, I'd twist the kitty's tail.
/know thyself?
| 663 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Aug 3, 2010 8:10:59pm |
re: #662 lostlakehiker
Me, I'd twist the kitty's tail.
/know thyself?
People who commit violence against innocent felines disturb and frighten me....
| 664 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Aug 3, 2010 8:12:19pm |
re: #373 Walter L. Newton
Well, it's dead serious that you drove Cato away.
If by drive away you mean "didn't tolerate constant harassment and namecalling" yeah. He drove Cato away.
So sorry we won't just lie down and take abuse happily. Many apologies.
Maybe you should go to last night's thread where cato was teeing off on me for no earthly fucking reason at all. I'm sorry your friend can't control himself. It's not our fault.
| 665 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Aug 3, 2010 8:18:31pm |
re: #663 jamesfirecat
People who commit violence against innocent felines disturb and frighten me...
Agreed.
| 666 |
Interesting Times Tue, Aug 3, 2010 8:18:37pm |
re: #658 SanFranciscoZionist
They used to turn boys down for the Army because of illiteracy, underweight, and all kinds of health problems due to poverty.
These days it's extreme overweight.
They seem to be, er, leaving a little wiggle room on that last point...
| 667 |
Nimed Tue, Aug 3, 2010 8:21:07pm |
re: #649 reine.de.tout
I don't want to discuss it because others do it much more eloquently than I do; LVQ is one, and I basically agree with his conclusions.
The UN does indeed have a physical location; things do indeed happen there - resolutions are passed, votes are taken, etc. So . . . I'm a bit confused as to why it's a problem to discuss what happens at the UN's physical location. LVQ used some of those actions in forming his conclusions; I pointed out that he did so.
The UN is also an enormous organization, as you say. I don't think I've argued otherwise. I've basically, here, been responding to things you've said.
Where are you trying to go with this?
Reine, what I'm trying to say is that it's incredibly reductionist to attribute a specific agenda to a global institution that fundamentally represents a conglomerate of incredibly diverse (and often contradictory) interests.
| 668 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 3, 2010 8:23:06pm |
re: #667 Nimed
Reine, what I'm trying to say is that it's incredibly reductionist to attribute a specific agenda to a global institution that fundamentally represents a conglomerate of incredibly diverse (and often contradictory) interests.
This is a very succinct summary of my feelings regarding the UN. Ineffective? Yes, terribly. But not possessed of foul motive.
| 672 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 3, 2010 8:33:01pm |
| 673 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Aug 3, 2010 8:35:13pm |
re: #671 Alouette
How did the spammer get in?
He posted two threads up, too. Stinky blocked his ass.
| 674 |
Bob Levin Tue, Aug 3, 2010 8:45:43pm |
I'm sorry if someone already posted this type of comment, but reading nearly 700 posts is a bit much for me.
I think our economic crisis started from so many people deciding to start their own vineyard, grow their own mounds of grapes, that there was no one left to buy the grapes. Then the soil went bad from all of the rotting grapes, and here we are with no grapes, and lousy soil.
Let's see the monkeys pull that one.
| 675 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Aug 3, 2010 8:50:25pm |
re: #674 Bob Levin
I'm sorry if someone already posted this type of comment, but reading nearly 700 posts is a bit much for me.
I think our economic crisis started from so many people deciding to start their own vineyard, grow their own mounds of grapes, that there was no one left to buy the grapes. Then the soil went bad from all of the rotting grapes, and here we are with no grapes, and lousy soil.
Let's see the monkeys pull that one.
This isn't that far off, imo. If you can find it, look up "giant pool of money" on NPR's "This American Life". It's a fascinating take on the economic crisis. It isn't available for free, but you can download it for 99 cents I think. It's worth every penny.
| 676 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Aug 3, 2010 9:23:34pm |
re: #667 Nimed
Reine, what I'm trying to say is that it's incredibly reductionist to attribute a specific agenda to a global institution that fundamentally represents a conglomerate of incredibly diverse (and often contradictory) interests.
Well, it would be, EXCEPT, IMO, this conglomerate votes on things, with the final vote representing the body as a whole, and the final outcomes of the body as a whole seem to be very strongly and consistently against Israel, portraying Israel's defensive actions as if they are offensive actions.
| 677 |
boredtechindenver Tue, Aug 3, 2010 11:50:13pm |
re: #654 justaminute
I know you aren't here, and may not see this, but the LGF User Pages are made for a post from your husband. He can write it out in a word processor and take as long as he needs to get his ideas down, and you can post it for him. I know many here, including myself, would love to see as many view points as possible.
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