ADL ‘Won’t Fight’ Park51 Community Center

US News • Views: 2,444

The Anti-Defamation League’s Abe Foxman now says the ADL won’t fight the Park51 project.

The Anti-Defamation League will not fight the building of a controversial Islamic center and mosque planned near the site of the September 11, 2001, terror attacks in New York, the group’s leader told CNN Wednesday.

The Jewish organization sparked debate last week by opposing what’s come to be known as the “ground zero mosque” on the grounds that the controversy over it was “counterproductive to the healing process.”

But following a ruling Tuesday that clears the way for the mosque to be built, “we’re not continuing to fight it. We raised an issue … but once the community board ruled, we move on,” Abraham Foxman told CNN’s “American Morning.”

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305 comments
1 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:20:09am

Now, of course, all those who were dancing over the ADL being “supportive” of their bigotry will haul out the tar and feathers.

2 Big Steve  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:20:14am

See everyone this is what Adults do…..

3 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:23:05am

Sorry Abe, but you can’t erase the stink of your prior position by now saying you’re not going to fight the Islamic center/community center/mosque at 47-51 Park Place.

And while Abe and the ADL are withdrawing from the fight, there’s still fight left in the anti-mosque groups; one of which is filing suit to demand a reargument of the landmarking status claiming that they rejected the landmarking out of political considerations.

Of course, rearguing the position actually introduces political considerations to trump the architectural merits (or lack thereof in this case).

4 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:26:19am
The Jewish organization sparked debate last week by opposing what’s come to be known as the “ground zero mosque” on the grounds that the controversy over it was “counterproductive to the healing process.”

But following a ruling Tuesday that clears the way for the mosque to be built, “we’re not continuing to fight it. We raised an issue … but once the community board ruled, we move on,” Abraham Foxman told CNN’s “American Morning.”

Anyone have the transcript to that show to see what he said. This report truncates what Foxman had to say - but if that’s indeed accurate, then Foxman doesn’t understand the process and ignored that the community board acted prior to the LPC and voiced its support for the project.

The LPC isn’t the community board. The community board previously voted its support. The community board’s landmarks group urged the LPC to reject the landmarking of the building. Yesterday the LPC rejected the landmarking of the building.

5 Max  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:26:50am

Abe Foxman backing out and J-Street’s support will not be enough to stop the anti-Mosque madness.

Rudy has already drunk the anti-Mosque tea.

In my opinion, George W. Bush is the only man left who can put a stop to this.

6 darthstar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:27:07am

re: #2 Big Steve

See everyone this is what Adults do…

Say stupid shit and then have to walk back away from it slowly?

7 darthstar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:29:21am

re: #3 lawhawk

The anti-mosqueteers are strong! (and sharply dressed!)

8 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:31:11am

Foxman overstepped his bounds and the larger Jewish community reminded him that synagogues are built in America under the same protections that allow for different tyes of churches and mosques.

9 jaunte  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:31:27am

re: #7 darthstar

Get Annette.

10 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:32:26am

re: #6 darthstar

I’ve seen people voice their opposition to things, get out-voted, then STFU.

I think it’s cool and adult.

11 Four More Tears  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:34:09am

Some bad craziness from black Tea Party leaders.

12 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:35:58am

re: #11 JasonA

Some bad craziness from black Tea Party leaders.

A Black tea partier is prima fascia more crazy than most.

13 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:40:56am

I was very disappointed in the ADL who in the past have filed as “friend of the court” (amicus curiae) in cases involving the ability of my church to build temples where we wanted.

It surprised me that they of all people would oppose Park 51.

The “non-opposed” position is a positive step but I’d like to hear some language similar to Mayor Bloomberg in advocating for freedom of expression and freedom to worship by ALL Americans. That would be more consistent with their previous positions and frankly the right thing to do.

14 RadicalModerate  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:41:36am

re: #11 JasonA

Some bad craziness from black Tea Party leaders.

Prediction before I click on the link - Alan Keyes is quoted in this story.

15 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:43:03am

There are ways you can raise concerns about the mosque/community center without getting into a frothing mess of racist, anti-Islam pablum.

Herein:

The proposals backers show tremendous insensitivity to the community and those who were directly affected by the 9/11 attacks by proposing to break ground on their center on the anniversary of the attacks. Such actions trump the words of sensitivity claimed by Imam Rauf and other proponents. Moreover, the lack of openness about the financial support of the community center can lead a reasonable person to believe that there is something to hide.

As this group intends to become part of, and greatly expand, the vibrant community scene in Lower Manhattan it is imperative for the group to provide outreach to the community to assuage their fears and concerns over the proposal and the group’s financial efforts. To date, the Cordoba House group has not taken sufficient steps in this effort. Moreover, when pressed, the backers of the proposal have clammed up and refused to take questions on the proposal.

Etc….

16 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:43:46am

Good on the ADL for dropping its active opposition following the ruling. To do otherwise would give the appearance of disrespecting the law.

17 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:44:27am

re: #11 JasonA

Some bad craziness from black Tea Party leaders.

I am always stunned when anyone who is Black plays the slavery card. That’s like the Ace in the deck of race cards. Using it on the President is even weirder and more tasteless.

18 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:46:22am

re: #5 Max D. Reinhardt

In my opinion, George W. Bush is the only man left who can put a stop to this.

He’s easy to find. He’s the one on the Ranch in Crawford Texas muttering “screw them if they don’t like me…” behind the wood pile.

19 Four More Tears  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:48:03am

re: #17 DaddyG

I am always stunned when anyone who is Black plays the slavery card. That’s like the Ace in the deck of race cards. Using it on the President is even weirder and more tasteless.

Yeah, this part especially:

He said tea party activists, if successful, would reduce the size of government and set in motion another Emancipation Proclamation

It really demeans the original to make that kind of a comparison.

20 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:50:30am

re: #16 Spare O’Lake

Good on the ADL for dropping its active opposition following the ruling. To do otherwise would give the appearance of disrespecting the law.

Worse than that - disrespect for the very American freedoms that allow Jews to worship in this nation. The hypocrisy was stunning.

21 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:52:41am

re: #20 LudwigVanQuixote

Worse than that - disrespect for the very American freedoms that allow Jews to worship in this nation. The hypocrisy was stunning.

Until they fully reverse, it still is.

22 RadicalModerate  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:53:01am

Just got done reading the article.

Wow. This stuff is just nuts.

Would this be the sound that’s made when you inhale instead of exhaling when blowing the dogwhistle?

“Democrats have re-enslaved America,” said Kevin Jackson, president of the Black Conservative Coalition. He said tea party activists, if successful, would reduce the size of government and set in motion another Emancipation Proclamation, the document that President Abraham Lincoln signed that effectively ended slavery.

“This time, even the white folks get freed,” said Jackson, who accused Obama of viewing fellow blacks as “mongrels.”

Other speakers called Democrats white supremacists and elitists.

23 Judith  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:53:49am

re: #6 darthstar

No obviously since the ADL took a midway position and was trying to see both sides of the issue and then made a decision not to block the mosque after a lot of consideration, obviously everyone in the ADL or whoever associated with it in any way shape or form is a just bigot to be ignored except to name call. Also we must never forget their wavering into bigotry. Yu waver once you’re permanently and forever toasted.

/sarcasm

24 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:53:54am

re: #5 Max D. Reinhardt

Abe Foxman backing out and J-Street’s support will not be enough to stop the anti-Mosque madness.

Rudy has already drunk the anti-Mosque tea.

In my opinion, George W. Bush is the only man left who can put a stop to this.

Either that, or it will put him on the right fringe’s shit list forever…but it’s worth a try. George, where are you?

(I’m guessing Haiti or Texas, but I could be mistaken.)

25 PT Barnum  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:54:00am

Was listening to On Point on NPR this morning and they tied it to an wave of concern by some that the country was being Islamasized.

I wonder how much of the fear of Sharia law being enacted and mosques being built is from the right wing Christian concerns that they might lose their status as the dominant religion in the country.

26 darthstar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:55:42am

re: #22 RadicalModerate

Just got done reading the article.

Wow. This stuff is just nuts.

Would this be the sound that’s made when you inhale instead of exhaling when blowing the dogwhistle?

Conservatives are doubling-down on stupidity. I don’t know if the Democratic party can reach deep enough into their bag of self-sabotaging techniques to give the GOP the victory it keeps predicting this fall. It really will be a test of their ability to pull defeat from the jaws of victory.

27 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:56:08am

re: #19 JasonA

It really demeans the original to make that kind of a comparison.

“This time, the white folks get freed too.”

Yes. Because last time we left them languishing in chains.

Jeez. Is there something wrong with simply saying, “Lower taxes and smaller government will benefit the black community,” or something?

28 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:57:37am

re: #25 PT Barnum

Was listening to On Point on NPR this morning and they tied it to an wave of concern by some that the country was being Islamasized.

I wonder how much of the fear of Sharia law being enacted and mosques being built is from the right wing Christian concerns that they might lose their status as the dominant religion in the country.

Seems highly unlikely. We have a very, very small Muslim population in the U.S.

If they’re this concerned, why don’t they encourage more Mexicans to move here? They’re mostly all Christians of some variety or another.

//

29 darthstar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:58:48am

re: #23 Judith

No obviously since the ADL took a midway position and was trying to see both sides of the issue and then made a decision not to block the mosque after a lot of consideration, obviously everyone in the ADL or whoever associated with it in any way shape or form is a just bigot to be ignored except to name call. Also we must never forget their wavering into bigotry. Yu waver once you’re permanently and forever toasted.

/sarcasm

A full retraction with a caveat of “What the hell were we thinking when we said that!?!” might work. But they made themselves look anti-muslim, when their stated purpose is to defend Jews. It was a bad move. I’m glad they’re walking it back, but it’ll still leave a mark for a little while (though it will soon be forgotten, I’m sure).

30 brookly red  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:59:01am

re: #28 SanFranciscoZionist

Seems highly unlikely. We have a very, very small Muslim population in the U.S.

If they’re this concerned, why don’t they encourage more Mexicans to move here? They’re mostly all Christians of some variety or another.

//

Don’t laugh, I have heard that very thing suggested…

31 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 11:59:38am

It occurred to me that I haven’t produced an LGF related photoshoppe since the Area 51 Nirth Certifikit last year. I got to work and the results are now posted in pages, Official Wingnut head-gear, modeled by Glenn Beck.

32 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:00:50pm

re: #31 Shiplord Kirel

It occurred to me that I haven’t produced an LGF related photoshoppe since the Area 51 Nirth Certifikit last year. I got to work and the results are now posted in pages, Official Wingnut head-gear, modeled by Glenn Beck.

Now, that’s cute as hell. Can I get one with a Magen David?

33 Judith  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:02:55pm

re: #25 PT Barnum

Was listening to On Point on NPR this morning and they tied it to an wave of concern by some that the country was being Islamasized.

I wonder how much of the fear of Sharia law being enacted and mosques being built is from the right wing Christian concerns that they might lose their status as the dominant religion in the country.

I fear the Islamization of the North America by Wahhabists. The Saudi Block has used their wealth and power to pretty much take over most mosques in North America and fill them with radicals in positions of power, especially over those counselling youth. I have a lot of Muslim friends who won’t let their kids go to the mosques for fear of the radical there and who feel they have been forced out of their mosques after radical took over.

I am not Christian

34 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:03:23pm

What a bunch of hypocrites. The ADL has successfully diminished itself.

35 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:04:37pm

re: #22 RadicalModerate

Just got done reading the article.

Wow. This stuff is just nuts.

Would this be the sound that’s made when you inhale instead of exhaling when blowing the dogwhistle?

That’s the sound you get when the whistle is in the wrong end of the dog. /

36 Judith  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:04:40pm

re: #29 darthstar

A full retraction with a caveat of “What the hell were we thinking when we said that!?!” might work. But they made themselves look anti-muslim, when their stated purpose is to defend Jews. It was a bad move. I’m glad they’re walking it back, but it’ll still leave a mark for a little while (though it will soon be forgotten, I’m sure).

If there is any group of people in the world who have the right to waver and be overly suspicious and make errors in judgement when it comes to Muslim motivations, it’s Jews.

37 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:07:18pm

re: #33 Judith

I fear the Islamization of the North America by Wahhabists. The Saudi Block has used their wealth and power to pretty much take over most mosques in North America and fill them with radicals in positions of power, especially over those counselling youth. I have a lot of Muslim friends who won’t let their kids go to the mosques for fear of the radical there and who feel they have been forced out of their mosques after radical took over.

I am not Christian

You really think Islam is going to take over North America?

Seriously?

38 Kragar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:07:33pm

Wyclef Jean to Run for President of Haiti

It’s tempting to dismiss this as flaky performance art, a publicity stunt from the same guy who just a few years ago recorded a number called “President” that included the refrain “If I was President.” But Jean’s chances as well as his motives seem solid. And there are good reasons for Haitians — and the U.S.-led international donor community, which is bankrolling Haiti’s long slog to the 21st century — to take this particular hip-hop politician seriously. Pop-culture celebrity hardly disqualifies you from high office today. (The last time I looked, an action hero was still running California.) And in Haiti, where half the population of about 9 million is under age 25, it’s an asset as golden as a rapper’s chains. Amid Haiti’s gray postquake rubble, Jean is far more popular with that young cohort than their chronically corrupt and inept mainstream politicians are, and he’ll likely galvanize youth participation in the election.

More important, Jean stands to prove that fame can do more than lift voter turnout — or raise millions of dollars for earthquake victims, as his Yéle Haiti (Haiti Freedom Cry) foundation has this year. His presidential run, win or lose, could build a long-awaited bridge between Haiti and its diaspora: a legion of expatriates and their progeny, many of them successful in pursuits spanning every field, who number 800,000 in the U.S. alone. International aid managers agree that Haiti really can’t recover from the quake unless it taps into the education, capital, entrepreneurial drive and love for mother country that Jean epitomizes — even if his French (one of Haiti’s official languages) is poor and his Creole (the other) is rusty. “A lot of Haitians are excited about this,” says Marvel Dandin, a popular Port-au-Prince radio broadcaster. “Given the awful situation in Haiti right now,” he says, “most people don’t care if the President speaks fluent Creole.”

39 PT Barnum  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:08:25pm

re: #33 Judith

I fear the Islamization of the North America by Wahhabists. The Saudi Block has used their wealth and power to pretty much take over most mosques in North America and fill them with radicals in positions of power, especially over those counselling youth. I have a lot of Muslim friends who won’t let their kids go to the mosques for fear of the radical there and who feel they have been forced out of their mosques after radical took over.

I am not Christian

But then shouldn’t the issue be asking Muslims to police their own instead of raising wildly paranoid concerns about all Muslims?

40 Judith  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:10:55pm

re: #37 Charles

I think a branch of Islam would like to. But then I don’t really think the Wahhabists are islamics, they are nuts and I don’t really fear they are capable to talking over North America because Americans are far too onery. I do fear they are trying.

Let me remind everyone I supported the mosque in the previous posts.

41 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:12:16pm

re: #26 darthstar

Conservatives are doubling-down on stupidity. I don’t know if the Democratic party can reach deep enough into their bag of self-sabotaging techniques to give the GOP the victory it keeps predicting this fall. It really will be a test of their ability to pull defeat from the jaws of victory.


The Libs are pretty good at matching the Cons for Stupid Political Tricks.

I suspect both parties will be racing for oblivion this election season. (And no that is not Tu Quoque when the approval rating for the entire congress is 11%).

Its like they can’t help themselves pandering to the far extremes of their respective political parties.

The Cons are in even rarer form this cycle as the various factions vie for power within the GOP and the “enemy” is in the White House.

42 Judith  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:12:32pm

re: #39 PT Barnum

I did not say ALL muslims. I was very careful to say what specific subgroup of Muslims I am afraid of. Of course I am also an admitted right winger so you can just dismiss me as a bigot if it makes you feel better.

43 Judith  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:14:03pm

re: #39 PT Barnum

Oh and policing their own requires a comment too. Do you know what happens to Muslims who try to “police their own”?

44 Judith  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:15:00pm

re: #41 DaddyG

I am a Conservative.

45 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:16:45pm

re: #42 Judith

I did not say ALL muslims. I was very careful to say what specific subgroup of Muslims I am afraid of. Of course I am also an admitted right winger so you can just dismiss me as a bigot if it makes you feel better.


70-75% of all Muslims are Sunni which leaves 15% Shi’a. Of the Shi’a Muslims a fraction are radialized. There is money behind the Wahabbists for sure, but as far as the radicals taking over the broader religion, especially in the USA - then going on to take over our national culture and government?! That would take some doing.

Sadly that same line of thinking kept the Catholics, Jews, Mormons, Adventists, ect, down for a long time at vaiours points of our history in the USA. Some of them even died to practice their beliefs.

I hope we would learn from our mistakes.

46 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:16:56pm

re: #43 Judith

Oh and policing their own requires a comment too. Do you know what happens to Muslims who try to “police their own”?

OK, I’ll bite. Can you tell me what would happen to, say, a group of American Muslims, like your friends, who opened their own small mosque and refused Wahhabi influence?

47 Spider Mensch  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:16:57pm

re: #43 Judith

Oh and policing their own requires a comment too. Do you know what happens to Muslims who try to “police their own”?


but in your original post, you state “that you have Many muslim friends who won’t let their kids go to the mosques because of the radical views expressed there”…isn’t that policing their own??

48 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:18:03pm

re: #44 Judith

I am a Conservative.

So am I. At least I think I am… who knows I’ve been updinging Killgore and Fozzie lately. Grandma is probably spinning in her grave. She thought Nixon got the shaft until the day she died.

49 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:18:32pm

re: #47 Spider Mensch

but in your original post, you state “that you have Many muslim friends who won’t let their kids go to the mosques because of the radical views expressed there”…isn’t that policing their own??

I don’t know if it’s policing, but it does seems to suggest that the Wahhabi strategy is pissing off American Muslims.

50 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:19:07pm

re: #29 darthstar

A full retraction with a caveat of “What the hell were we thinking when we said that!?!” might work. But they made themselves look anti-muslim, when their stated purpose is to defend Jews. It was a bad move. I’m glad they’re walking it back, but it’ll still leave a mark for a little while (though it will soon be forgotten, I’m sure).

Just because something is legal doesn’t mean that anyone who opposes it is a bigot. In this case, the ADL at all times confirmed the legality of the mosque while at the same time opposing it because it was in their view insensitive and destructive of the healing process.

51 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:19:46pm

re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, I’ll bite. Can you tell me what would happen to, say, a group of American Muslims, like your friends, who opened their own small mosque and refused Wahhabi influence?

Saudi protection racket?

52 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:20:23pm

re: #50 Spare O’Lake

Just because something is legal doesn’t mean that anyone who opposes it is a bigot. In this case, the ADL at all times confirmed the legality of the mosque while at the same time opposing it because it was in their view insensitive and destructive of the healing process.

What healing process are they talking about, anyway?

53 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:22:29pm

re: #50 Spare O’Lake

Just because something is legal doesn’t mean that anyone who opposes it is a bigot. In this case, the ADL at all times confirmed the legality of the mosque while at the same time opposing it because it was in their view insensitive and destructive of the healing process.


The best possible outcome is that the ADL takes a strong stand for the religious freedom of the Muslims building the center, the Imam moves the dedication date out of respect for those who might be offended and the whole community comes together to congratulate the congregation on the opening of the center. But that would be asking too many adults to be adults I fear.

54 PT Barnum  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:23:03pm

re: #45 DaddyG

Sadly that same line of thinking kept the Catholics, Jews, Mormons, Adventists, ect, down for a long time at vaiours points of our history in the USA. Some of them even died to practice their beliefs.

I hope we would learn from our mistakes.

But that line of thinking ties in exactly with what I was saying before. Right wing Christians trying to protect their dominance.

55 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:23:47pm

re: #20 LudwigVanQuixote

Worse than that - disrespect for the very American freedoms that allow Jews to worship in this nation. The hypocrisy was stunning.

I disagree. The ADL’s opposition was in good faith based on a desire to avoid unnecessary religious friction between Americans. They may be right or not, but there is no disrespect for the law.

56 Judith  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:24:42pm

re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist

Well one of my friends had people calling his home and making death threats against him and his family and he suddenly found himself being ostracised. His children were subjected to all kinds of abuse and bullying to the point he pulled them from the Islamic day school they were in. Then he got a call from his family Afghanistan. The Taliban dropped off a night letter saying he was a collaborator with the West and left the true path and they should disown him or they would die.

Of course, that was likely an exception.

57 webevintage  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:24:55pm

It is 104 degrees here in Arkansas.
But hey, it’s a dry heat!

58 Kragar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:25:27pm

re: #55 Spare O’Lake

I disagree. The ADL’s opposition was in good faith based on a desire to avoid unnecessary religious friction between Americans. They may be right or not, but there is no disrespect for the law.

Sometimes, doing what it takes to avoid “friction” can be part of the problem.

59 brookly red  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:25:41pm

re: #55 Spare O’Lake

I disagree. The ADL’s opposition was in good faith based on a desire to avoid unnecessary religious friction between Americans. They may be right or not, but there is no disrespect for the law.

I got a bad feeling that before this is over someone is going to get hurt… I hope I am wrong.

60 PT Barnum  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:26:26pm

re: #57 webevintage

It is 104 degrees here in Arkansas.
But hey, it’s a dry heat!

humid as hell in Iowa. It’s muggy and my wife and I went out for our morning walk and got thoroughly mugged.

61 Judith  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:26:39pm

re: #59 brookly red

I hope you are as well. If it’s true what I heard that the Mosque is Sufi and not Wahhabists that would be friendly fire.

62 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:26:46pm

re: #59 brookly red

I got a bad feeling that before this is over someone is going to get hurt… I hope I am wrong.

I am guessing that security will be pretty tight - at least I hope it is.

63 Kragar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:27:04pm

re: #57 webevintage

It is 104 degrees here in Arkansas.
But hey, it’s a dry heat!

But we have no sun in San Diego.

Coldest July in San Diego in nearly 100 years

64 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:28:11pm

re: #54 PT Barnum

But that line of thinking ties in exactly with what I was saying before. Right wing Christians trying to protect their dominance.

While Conservative Chistians are involved I think the issue is broader than that. Americans have a xenophobic streak and they fear outsiders. Once the outsiders become insiders over time they forget and join that group that says “outsiders aren’t welcome unless they act like us”. There are plenty of Catholic, Jewish, Mormon and even atheist bigots joining in on the anti-Islam trend sadly enough.

Various groups are more inside and more outside depending on who is trying to define “us” and “them”.

The good news is that we have a history of accepting and protecting others rights in this country so the outsiders do eventually become insiders. I wish it could come without the interludes of bigotry and suspicion.

The terrorist acts don’t help but you cannot suspend God given rights in order to exclude a group based on what a few of them do.

65 brookly red  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:29:43pm

re: #61 Judith

re: #62 Radicchio ad Absurdum

I won’t make predictions as to who or why, but there is a lot of pent up tension out there and it is only going to get worse.

66 Jack Burton  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:30:16pm

re: #63 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

But we have no sun in San Diego.

Coldest July in San Diego in nearly 100 years

The short heat-wave we had just happened to coincide with my AC dying. Got it fixed the day it cooled down.

67 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:30:36pm

Construction map for Lower Manhattan.

68 jordash1212  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:30:45pm

Good. It was bad enough they thought it necessary to release a position on the whole ordeal.

69 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:31:27pm

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

What healing process are they talking about, anyway?

Great question.

“Foxman said the critical part of the ADL’s statement – posted on the ADL’s website last Friday, not sent out as a press release – was the paragraph, “The controversy which has emerged regarding the building of an Islamic Center at this location is counterproductive to the healing process. Therefore, under these unique circumstances, we believe the City of New York would be better served if an alternative location could be found.”

“We didn’t say it should be found, and we didn’t say we were opposed to it, okay?” Foxman said. “We brought up a sensitivity, which was then pushed by somebody for their own interest, whatever that may be. We don’t shirk from taking a position, even if the positions are not always popular.”

The ADL’s position on the issue, Foxman said, stemmed from the organization’s sense of continuity and credibility.

“It goes back to the 1980s, where we as a community asked the world to help us prevent the building of a convent at Auschwitz, or on its periphery,” Foxman elaborated. “We were then accused of being bigots – anti-Catholic, anti-Christian.

“We said, look, if you want to heal or reconcile, do it elsewhere,” he recalled. “That location was painful for us. It wasn’t till eight years after all the ‘sturm und drang’ that Pope John Paul understood, and ordered the Carmelite nuns to move about a mile away and set up their convent.”

Foxman said the situation regarding the proposed Islamic Community Center was “similar” in terms of issues of sensitivity to the families of September 11 victims.

“The families have been saying to the Muslim proponents of the center, if you want to heal, this is not the place to heal,” Foxman said, speaking of the two-block proximity of the location to Ground Zero. “If you want to reconcile, this is not the proper place.”

jpost.com

70 Kragar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:31:48pm

re: #66 ArchangelMichael

The short heat-wave we had just happened to coincide with my AC dying. Got it fixed the day it cooled down.

I just want a little rain.

71 Judith  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:33:26pm

re: #64 DaddyG

Now that was a wise and well reasoned comment. I also agree with your attitude.

I will also add this. As the newcomers adjust to society in the west they also compromise on those parts of their doctrine that are incompatible to their new home. An example would be how Mormons had a revelation about polygamy around the time of Utah statehood. So not all of this suspicion is simply unwarranted bigotry.

72 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:33:47pm

re: #65 brookly red

re: #62 Radicchio ad Absurdum

I won’t make predictions as to who or why, but there is a lot of pent up tension out there and it is only going to get worse.

Which is why I am sure they will have tight security. I am pretty sure that if anyone tries anything, they will be put down pretty hard.

73 palomino  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:34:56pm

re: #17 DaddyG

I am always stunned when anyone who is Black plays the slavery card. That’s like the Ace in the deck of race cards. Using it on the President is even weirder and more tasteless.

I don’t think this is the kind of “outreach to black voters” that Michael Steele was talking about in his “hip hop urban suburban off the hook” speech. If this is how the right “courts” minority voters, they’ll continue to get 5% of the black vote.

On the bright side, the gop still gets 30% of the Hispanic vote. But with all the hysteria over “illegal invasions by Mexicans” and repealing the 14th Amendment, that figure is headed south too.

74 Four More Tears  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:35:31pm

*waves at Cato*

75 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:36:11pm

re: #69 Spare O’Lake

The significant difference between the World Trade Center site as a symbol of the healing process and Auschwitz si that the WTC site was murder of a diverse group of people including Muslims. Aushwitz was a place with primarily Jewish victims.

If you really want to get into the details the US protection of all religions under the law is different from a European country that is heavily Catholic.

76 brookly red  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:36:30pm

re: #74 JasonA

*waves at Cato*

yes a welcome sight it is…

77 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:36:39pm

re: #56 Judith

Well one of my friends had people calling his home and making death threats against him and his family and he suddenly found himself being ostracised. His children were subjected to all kinds of abuse and bullying to the point he pulled them from the Islamic day school they were in. Then he got a call from his family Afghanistan. The Taliban dropped off a night letter saying he was a collaborator with the West and left the true path and they should disown him or they would die.

Of course, that was likely an exception.

Sounds bad. Having family at home makes things harder, clearly.

78 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:37:42pm

re: #69 Spare O’Lake

I don’t get the impression that the two situations are even remotely similar.

79 Judith  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:40:23pm

re: #75 DaddyG

re: #77 SanFranciscoZionist

Another of my friends had a small pizzeria business. When he spoke out about the radicalization someone went around handing out flyers accusing him of being unIslamic and calling on all Muslims to boycott his business and boycott anyone who didn’t support boycotting. For about a month he noticed a difference and then business picked up again.

80 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:40:47pm

re: #71 Judith

Now that was a wise and well reasoned comment. I also agree with your attitude.

I will also add this. As the newcomers adjust to society in the west they also compromise on those parts of their doctrine that are incompatible to their new home. An example would be how Mormons had a revelation about polygamy around the time of Utah statehood. So not all of this suspicion is simply unwarranted bigotry.

(I’m going to put a too fine point on it here but) That revelation on polygamy had more to do with losing all of their property and incorporation as a church than it did statehood. The statehood question really came later. This was consistent with LDS doctrine that if a person is prevented from following a particular God given law and they have done their best to do it, they are no longer required to follow that law. It also reconcilled us to living the law of the land where we live and the Supreme court declared polygamy illegal.

Back to the topic… Yes groups are expected to assimilate to a degree, but were talking building a community center not wanting to impose sharia law on New York. I don’t think the American Muslims are going to start pushing for that real soon. Even if they did we have a due process for chanigng our laws. Simply disagreeing with them or expressing a desire for change constitutes no threat to the nation.

81 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:41:00pm

With due respect to all, I suggest everyone read the ADL’s statement on the subject, which is reproduced below in its entirety. As you will see the ADL clearly (1) stated that the proponents of the center have every legal right to build and (2) catergorically rejected those who appealed to religious bigotry in their opposition to the center. The ADL urged nothing more than that, given the relative proximity of the proposed center to the World Trade Center site, the City of New York might be better served if a different location was found for the center. One may criticize the ADL for taking any position on the matter, but those on this board who suggest that the ADL’s position had anything to do with opposition to the rights of Moslems has either not read or forgotten what the ADL actually said.

That said, the original ADL statement follows:

We regard freedom of religion as a cornerstone of the American democracy, and that freedom must include the right of all Americans – Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and other faiths – to build community centers and houses of worship.

We categorically reject appeals to bigotry on the basis of religion, and condemn those whose opposition to this proposed Islamic Center is a manifestation of such bigotry.

However, there are understandably strong passions and keen sensitivities surrounding the World Trade Center site. We are ever mindful of the tragedy which befell our nation there, the pain we all still feel – and especially the anguish of the families and friends of those who were killed on September 11, 2001.

The controversy which has emerged regarding the building of an Islamic Center at this location is counterproductive to the healing process. Therefore, under these unique circumstances, we believe the City of New York would be better served if an alternative location could be found.

In recommending that a different location be found for the Islamic Center, we are mindful that some legitimate questions have been raised about who is providing the funding to build it, and what connections, if any, its leaders might have with groups whose ideologies stand in contradiction to our shared values. These questions deserve a response, and we hope those backing the project will be transparent and forthcoming. But regardless of how they respond, the issue at stake is a broader one.

Proponents of the Islamic Center may have every right to build at this site, and may even have chosen the site to send a positive message about Islam. The bigotry some have expressed in attacking them is unfair, and wrong. But ultimately this is not a question of rights, but a question of what is right. In our judgment, building an Islamic Center in the shadow of the World Trade Center will cause some victims more pain – unnecessarily – and that is not right.

82 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:42:39pm

re: #79 Judith

re: #77 SanFranciscoZionist

Another of my friends had a small pizzeria business. When he spoke out about the radicalization someone went around handing out flyers accusing him of being unIslamic and calling on all Muslims to boycott his business and boycott anyone who didn’t support boycotting. For about a month he noticed a difference and then business picked up again.

So in that case, they failed to make the level of trouble they wanted. Interesting situations.

Is he also an Afghani, or is this a mixed community?

83 windsagio  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:42:47pm

re: #81 sliv_the_eli

I don’t think anybody would be accusing them of ill intent, just poor judgement :P

84 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:42:50pm

The definition of “prejudice:”

1 - preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience : English prejudice against foreigners | anti-Jewish prejudices.
• dislike, hostility, or unjust behavior formed on such a basis : accusations of racial prejudice.

Think about it.

85 palomino  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:43:34pm

re: #40 Judith

I think a branch of Islam would like to. But then I don’t really think the Wahhabists are islamics, they are nuts and I don’t really fear they are capable to talking over North America because Americans are far too onery. I do fear they are trying.

Let me remind everyone I supported the mosque in the previous posts.

Look at the numbers. Muslims are—at most—2% of the US population. There is exactly ONE Muslim in the US Congress. And they are fragmented in the US. They just don’t have the power to take over anything here. Not politically, economically, numerically, etc.

Native Americans stand a better chance of (re)taking America than Muslims do. And I wouldn’t worry about that either.

86 Jack Burton  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:43:45pm

re: #81 sliv_the_eli

Really none of that matters. A civil rights organization came out with a statement that was a slap in the face to the First Amendment. Then they backpedaled on it in a completely half-hearted manner. They have damaged their credibility immensely.

87 windsagio  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:44:29pm

*cough* more friends that just show up just in order to perfectly prove someones point >>

88 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:44:46pm

re: #81 sliv_the_eli

Most people here are well aware of Foxman’s original statement, and I have not changed my opinion that it was a very stupid, self-defeating thing to say. All Foxman achieved was to give ammunition to the bigots who oppose the Park51 project, and harm the credibility of the ADL.

89 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:45:28pm

re: #86 ArchangelMichael

Really none of that matters. A civil rights organization came out with a statement that was a slap in the face to the First Amendment. Then they backpedaled on it in a completely half-hearted manner. They have damaged their credibility immensely.

I would say they damaged their credibility forever.

90 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:45:33pm

re: #75 DaddyG

The analogy is apt, though. It is about showing sensitivity to the victims, regarldess of what legal rights one might possess. Nazis had a right to march in Skokie under the U.S. Constitution, but others had the right to point out the insensitivity of their doing so without being accused of forgetting that Nazis have rights too. (Personally, I prefer the way Belushi and Aykroyd dealt with marching Nazis, but that’s another matter.)

91 brookly red  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:45:55pm

re: #87 windsagio

*cough* more friends that just show up just in order to perfectly prove someones point >>

uuh speak English….

92 windsagio  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:47:00pm

re: #89 Walter L. Newton


Oh I’m sure people will forgive them eventually :p

/just like they forgave (enter politician that did something stupid/awful but stayed in power 1-1130)! >>

93 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:47:20pm

In re to the experiences of Judith’s friends, it does make me wonder how many southern Italian immigrants three or four generations ago had similar (clearly slightly different) issues and threats to deal with when they challenged the Mafia or Camorra, and the rules that followed them from the Old Country.

Of course, at the time, we were assured by the pundits of the day that Italians (and Jews, and Irish) couldn’t ever grasp democracy and stuff like that, and now I’m assured frequently that Muslims can’t be Muslims without completely accepting global Jihad.

America does amazing shit for people, though.

94 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:47:34pm

re: #89 Walter L. Newton

I would say they damaged their credibility forever.

I’m not sure I’d go that far, but to be perfectly honest I wouldn’t mind seeing the communications director replaced or something.

95 webevintage  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:47:48pm

re: #88 Charles

Most people here are well aware of Foxman’s original statement, and I have not changed my opinion that it was a very stupid, self-defeating thing to say. All Foxman achieved was to give ammunition to the bigots who oppose the Park51 project, and harm the credibility of the ADL.

I was just listening to MSNBC with half an ear and the guy yelling about how horrid the mosque is started making noise about the ADL and their support of the movement against the mosque.

96 darthstar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:47:51pm

re: #89 Walter L. Newton

I would say they damaged their credibility forever.

Forever is an awfully long time. Most Americans can’t remember that there was an earthquake in Haiti this year, or that Republicans controlled both houses of Congress and the White House in 2006. Then again, some think the last person to win American Idol was Reuben or William Hung or someone.

97 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:47:56pm

re: #90 sliv_the_eli

The analogy is apt, though. It is about showing sensitivity to the victims, regarldess of what legal rights one might possess. Nazis had a right to march in Skokie under the U.S. Constitution, but others had the right to point out the insensitivity of their doing so without being accused of forgetting that Nazis have rights too. (Personally, I prefer the way Belushi and Aykroyd dealt with marching Nazis, but that’s another matter.)

So you think it’s an “apt” analogy to compare the developers of the Park51 project to the death camps of the Third Reich?

Wow.

98 windsagio  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:48:05pm

re: #94 McSpiff

also; walter you fishing for someone to agree? >>

99 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:48:41pm

re: #87 windsagio

*cough* more friends that just show up just in order to perfectly prove someones point >>

Well, a coworker of mine once had a student who hid her IPhone buds under her hijab, but I wouldn’t call that a justification for asking students not to veil…

100 Judith  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:49:10pm

re: #80 DaddyG

Not too fine a point and I think you for the correction. I am not a Mormon so I don’t know. As to the rest of yes, which I why I personally, personal reservations aside 100% endorse the right of those building the Mosque to build it.

They could have been a bit more sensitive about the opening date and the name.

101 darthstar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:49:31pm

re: #97 Charles

So you think it’s an “apt” analogy to compare the developers of the Park51 project to the death camps of the Third Reich?

Wow.

Godwin! Godwin was the last winner of American Idol! I knew I was missing something.

//

102 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:49:36pm

re: #98 windsagio

Its hard to tell with Walter, that’s why I rarely just state that I agree. Better to spell out your own opinion in general.

103 windsagio  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:49:53pm

re: #99 SanFranciscoZionist

I’m just a cynic :p

(PS: great story!)

104 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:49:54pm

re: #94 McSpiff

I’m not sure I’d go that far, but to be perfectly honest I wouldn’t mind seeing the communications director replaced or something.

It’s all Foxman, it comes from Foxman, and he’s not going to be replaced unless he, like, kills someone on national TV.

105 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:50:06pm

re: #98 windsagio

also; walter you fishing for someone to agree? >>

I don’t care if anyone agrees with me or not… it’s my fucking opinion… got a problem with that?

106 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:50:27pm

re: #79 Judith

re: #77 SanFranciscoZionist

Another of my friends had a small pizzeria business. When he spoke out about the radicalization someone went around handing out flyers accusing him of being unIslamic and calling on all Muslims to boycott his business and boycott anyone who didn’t support boycotting. For about a month he noticed a difference and then business picked up again.


The extremists make it hard for everyone. I would need proof (not heresay) that the location and timing of the Mosque in New York was an intentional plot to incubate radicals in the shadow of the WTC.

Having said that the timing of the dedication is at best poor understanding of the broader communities feelings and at worst a kind of “in your face” bravado.

107 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:50:37pm

OT — repostong from the previous thread:

and now for the conclusion of my INS experience:

We ended up in a second waiting room filled with at least 50 other hopefull immigrants, some of whom had been waiting over an hour. But the lizard hopes and prayers came through and we were called for our interview within 30 seconds! (all the eyes in the room were looking our way!) The government interviewer was a West Indian lady whom coulndnt have been more polite and pleasant as we sailed through with flying colors. My wife (Surabaya Sue) is now blessed with a green card!

Thanks for all the support, lizards!

108 windsagio  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:50:40pm

re: #105 Walter L. Newton

NO!

Just when I act doubtful you sometimes praise me, and I crave your love :D

109 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:51:28pm

re: #83 windsagio
I believe it was Lawhawk who spoke of “the stink” of the ADL’s position. If one reads what ADL’s actual position was, it seems to have been nothing more than a plea to consider a different location out of consideration for the sensitivities of the friends and family (and, I would add, the survivors) of the tragedy that occurred only a few blocks away. One may disagree with that view, but it is not objectively an appropriate one and hardly excuses some of the venom I have seen directed at ADL on this board.

110 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:51:30pm

re: #108 windsagio

NO!

Just when I act doubtful you sometimes praise me, and I crave your love :D

I’ll give you something you crave :)

111 Judith  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:51:30pm

re: #93 SanFranciscoZionist

Excellent analogy! Yes it is a very similar situation. My friend the pizzeria owner said his community comes from a place that doesn’t understand the idea of tolerating dissent and it scares them. Eventually when his community thought about and grasped it they understood and they came back to his pizzeria.

Actually even the idea of a Muslim pizzeria is so…..American isn’t it?

112 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:51:32pm

re: #98 windsagio

also; walter you fishing for someone to agree? >>

Honestly, with Walter, it’s gotten to a point where I can never tell if he’s being honest, playing Devil’s Advocate, or just screwing with people’s heads. It’s OK with me, but it makes me less likely to engage, since I never know if I’m walking into a discussion or a tiger pit.

No offense, Walter, I just stay out of tiger pits on principle.

113 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:51:34pm

re: #106 DaddyG

The extremists make it hard for everyone. I would need proof (not heresay) that the location and timing of the Mosque in New York was an intentional plot to incubate radicals in the shadow of the WTC.

Having said that the timing of the dedication is at best poor understanding of the broader communities feelings and at worst a kind of “in your face” bravado.

The dedication ceremony is NOT planned for 9/11. This is another lie circulated by the Bigot Brigade.

114 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:52:02pm

re: #31 Shiplord Kirel

It occurred to me that I haven’t produced an LGF related photoshoppe since the Area 51 Nirth Certifikit last year. I got to work and the results are now posted in pages, Official Wingnut head-gear, modeled by Glenn Beck.

How about a gold foil liner? I know where you can get that…

115 windsagio  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:52:06pm

re: #110 Walter L. Newton

Man its been gettin’ all hot and steamy in here lately with you ;)

116 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:52:10pm

Why do people think it’s okay to arrogate themselves to the position of spokesmen for the collective zeitgeist of the 9/11 victims’s families. It’s disgusting.

“Hey, I’m not a bigot, but those people must be bigots now as a result of their suffering on 9/11, and we shouldn’t approve anything that might upset how I think they should think.”

117 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:52:20pm

re: #104 SanFranciscoZionist

It’s all Foxman, it comes from Foxman, and he’s not going to be replaced unless he, like, kills someone on national TV.

I know, I just have a hard time coming down on the ADL. Just throw someone under the bus so we can move on…

118 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:52:21pm

re: #112 SanFranciscoZionist

Honestly, with Walter, it’s gotten to a point where I can never tell if he’s being honest, playing Devil’s Advocate, or just screwing with people’s heads. It’s OK with me, but it makes me less likely to engage, since I never know if I’m walking into a discussion or a tiger pit.

No offense, Walter, I just stay out of tiger pits on principle.

Works for me.

119 darthstar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:52:48pm

re: #98 windsagio

also; walter you fishing for someone to agree? >>

He’s not fishing…

120 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:52:52pm

re: #85 palomino

Look at the numbers. Muslims are—at most—2% of the US population. There is exactly ONE Muslim in the US Congress. And they are fragmented in the US. They just don’t have the power to take over anything here. Not politically, economically, numerically, etc.

Native Americans stand a better chance of (re)taking America than Muslims do. And I wouldn’t worry about that either.

Not to nitpick, but Andre Carlson has joined Keith Ellison as the second Muslim in congress. Just sayin’….

121 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:53:02pm

re: #100 Judith

Not too fine a point and I think you for the correction. I am not a Mormon so I don’t know. As to the rest of yes, which I why I personally, personal reservations aside 100% endorse the right of those building the Mosque to build it.

They could have been a bit more sensitive about the opening date and the name.

Totally missed the opening date. When are they opening?

As for the name, I like “Cordoba House”, and think “Park51” sounds like a restaurant where they think being expensive as hell makes up for giving you mediocre French cooking built up into little art plates.

122 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:53:18pm

re: #81 sliv_the_eli
Thank you! I am guilty of speaking from second hand reports. I am very pleased they condemned any decisions made on the basis of bigotry.

I think they should have avoided suggeting where the mosque be built but that is a lesser slight IMO. I take more issue with the dedication date set on 9/11.

123 windsagio  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:53:19pm

re: #109 sliv_the_eli

I dunno, it was clearly a damaging mistake, and one that will haunt them for a while.

Even when we support organizations it doesn’t pay to play apologist, imo >>

124 brookly red  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:53:38pm

re: #120 Surabaya Stew

Not to nitpick, but Andre Carlson has joined Keith Ellison as the second Muslim in congress. Just sayin’…

/see that is a 100% increase!

125 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:53:44pm

re: #103 windsagio

I’m just a cynic :p

(PS: great story!)

He finally tracked the little skritchy noise down, and quietly told her to go to the bathroom, remove the earphones, and come back and give them to him.

126 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:53:47pm

re: #109 sliv_the_eli

I believe it was Lawhawk who spoke of “the stink” of the ADL’s position. If one reads what ADL’s actual position was, it seems to have been nothing more than a plea to consider a different location out of consideration for the sensitivities of the friends and family (and, I would add, the survivors) of the tragedy that occurred only a few blocks away. One may disagree with that view, but it is not objectively an appropriate one and hardly excuses some of the venom I have seen directed at ADL on this board.

I am not directing “venom” at the ADL — I’m criticizing them for doing something that was deeply offensive, not just to me, but to many people. And I’m doing this because I generally agree with the ADL’s positions, and was shocked when Abe Foxman effectively aligned himself with anti-civil rights forces.

127 Judith  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:53:47pm

re: #87 windsagio

If that was slur on me, fine. I already know to some people here my being conservative and right wing automatically makes me a bigot so why not a liar as well?

128 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:54:28pm

re: #111 Judith

Excellent analogy! Yes it is a very similar situation. My friend the pizzeria owner said his community comes from a place that doesn’t understand the idea of tolerating dissent and it scares them. Eventually when his community thought about and grasped it they understood and they came back to his pizzeria.

Actually even the idea of a Muslim pizzeria is so…American isn’t it?

There’s a halal burrito place near my gym.

129 Kragar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:54:35pm

Sharron Angle: Democrats Making “Government Our God”

Nevada Republican Senate candidate Sharron Angle told a Christian radio station earlier this year that President Obama and Democrats in Congress are violating the Bible’s First Commandment by turning government into a false god.

Angle’s remarks were highlighted by the Las Vegas Sun as an illustration of her relatively extreme views, which pundits have suggested are making a tight race out of what should have been an easy GOP victory over unpopular Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid.


“And these programs that you mentioned — that Obama has going with Reid and Pelosi pushing them forward — are all entitlement programs built to make government our God,” Angle said in an April interview with TruNews Christian Radio. “And that’s really what’s happening in this country is a violation of the First Commandment. We have become a country entrenched in idolatry, and that idolatry is the dependency upon our government. We’re supposed to depend upon God for our protection and our provision and for our daily bread, not for our government.”

Angle has used strong religious rhetoric before, characterizing her candidacy as a “calling” from God. Angle’s words have given some Nevada voters pause: “She talks to the far Christian right, but that’s about it,” Las Vegas resident Michele Ficano told Hotsheet.

130 windsagio  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:54:44pm

re: #121 SanFranciscoZionist

I think charles covered it above, there’s a meme about that they’re gonna open on 9/11.

131 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:55:41pm

re: #85 palomino

There is exactly ONE Muslim in the US Congress.

Don’t forget the President! /Wingnut

132 windsagio  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:55:44pm

re: #129 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Yay, radicals! I love me some radicals!

… now I’m the one lying >>

133 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:56:14pm

re: #117 McSpiff

I know, I just have a hard time coming down on the ADL. Just throw someone under the bus so we can move on…

The org does good work, and they agree with me much of the time. I’m OK chalking this up to another Foxman moment and moving on.

134 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:56:20pm

re: #115 windsagio

Man its been gettin’ all hot and steamy in here lately with you ;)

That’s because I work out now at the gym… I’m getting in touch with how my manly body parts feel when pushed to their limits, that tingle that runs down my legs when using the vertical-horizontal push-the-metal-plate-up-with-your-ass machine, the sensuous rhythms of the squeeze-until-your-thighs-bust-like-pus-filled-sacks device… and tonight, after work… I have my first encounter with the deep-massage-my-puckered-anus rowing machine.

Manly.

135 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:56:22pm

re: #88 Charles
Charles, I understand your view about lending any ammunition to the bigots who oppose the center for that reason alone. My initial reaction was the same as yours, that it was a stupid thing to do. On the other hand, I have served as an advisor to a number of non-profit groups over the years (not the ADL) and sometimes the need to develop an internal consensus causes them to act on schedules that seem to bear no relation to what is politically or strategically wise. My beef with ADL is not in the position that they took, but in the timing, because the issue has now become so politicized that, as the LGF board reflects, anything other than outright support for the Center is treated as support for the bigots.

136 windsagio  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:56:31pm

re: #128 SanFranciscoZionist

There’s a trend for weird things being halal right now (at least in Seattle), I think it might be a health nut thing.

137 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:56:38pm

re: #120 Surabaya Stew

Not to nitpick, but Andre Carlson has joined Keith Ellison as the second Muslim in congress. Just sayin’…

What did HE swear in on?

138 brookly red  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:56:44pm

re: #128 SanFranciscoZionist

There’s a halal burrito place near my gym.

why is the best fast food always right next to the freakin gym?

139 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:57:09pm

re: #113 Charles

The dedication ceremony is NOT planned for 9/11. This is another lie circulated by the Bigot Brigade.


I stand corrected and embarassed. *Sigh* I shouldn’t have flipped past the O’Reilly report so fast on the way to King of the Hill last night.

140 darthstar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:57:41pm

re: #138 brookly red

why is the best fast food always right next to the freakin gym?

And why don’t they put food trays on the recumbent stationary bicycles?!

141 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:58:09pm

re: #112 SanFranciscoZionist

Honestly, with Walter, it’s gotten to a point where I can never tell if he’s being honest, playing Devil’s Advocate, or just screwing with people’s heads. It’s OK with me, but it makes me less likely to engage, since I never know if I’m walking into a discussion or a tiger pit.

No offense, Walter, I just stay out of tiger pits on principle.

You and me both. I also try to quote Walter as much as possible, to avoid putting words in his mouth.

142 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:58:34pm

re: #90 sliv_the_eli

The analogy is apt, though. It is about showing sensitivity to the victims, regarldess of what legal rights one might possess. Nazis had a right to march in Skokie under the U.S. Constitution, but others had the right to point out the insensitivity of their doing so without being accused of forgetting that Nazis have rights too. (Personally, I prefer the way Belushi and Aykroyd dealt with marching Nazis, but that’s another matter.)

People aren’t merely pointing out alleged insensitivity here - they are using smear campaigns, well-organized smear campaigns that play off the fears of Muslims taking over America, the President being a sekrit Muslim, with the full backing of right-wing pundits with radio programs that reach millions. Bad comparison.

143 windsagio  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:59:13pm

re: #141 McSpiff

you just have to have fun with it :)

144 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:00:03pm

re: #109 sliv_the_eli

We expect the ADL to act with integrity, and it didn’t. The venom, as you put it, is justified.

145 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:00:16pm

re: #129 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Sharron Angle: Democrats Making “Government Our God”

Sharron, I couldn’t agree more. Politics tarnishes the soul. You should stay away from it.

146 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:00:32pm

re: #143 windsagio

you just have to have fun with it :)

Look who’s talking steamy now?

147 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:01:11pm

re: #144 eclectic infidel

Heya. OT: Just checking you got the email. I do encourage you to call Mary Anne.

148 Kragar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:01:14pm

Let me just quote Angle hear again, “We’re supposed to depend upon God for our protection and our provision and for our daily bread, not for our government.”

Funny, but it seems to me every time there is an emergency, I’m not really seeing mana from Heaven, but I do see U.S. troops and supplies.

149 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:01:20pm

re: #136 windsagio

There’s a trend for weird things being halal right now (at least in Seattle), I think it might be a health nut thing.

Well, OK…

150 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:02:01pm

re: #148 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

God turned me down for a low-APR loan, the bastard.

151 windsagio  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:02:17pm

re: #149 SanFranciscoZionist

sorry, just a weird thing I noticed when I was up visiting my sister and her kids; lotsa places advertising halal menus (like wraps and such).

152 Max  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:02:43pm

The Republican candidate for Governor of Colorado, Dan Maes, claimed today that the Denver Mayor’s “pro-bike” policies are going to lead to UN control of the city.

153 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:03:03pm

re: #148 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Let me just quote Angle hear again, “We’re supposed to depend upon God for our protection and our provision and for our daily bread, not for our government.”

Funny, but it seems to me every time there is an emergency, I’m not really seeing mana from Heaven, but I do see U.S. troops and supplies.

How else is God supposed to deliver the stuff?

154 Jack Burton  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:03:06pm

re: #121 SanFranciscoZionist

Totally missed the opening date. When are they opening?

As for the name, I like “Cordoba House”, and think “Park51” sounds like a restaurant where they think being expensive as hell makes up for giving you mediocre French cooking built up into little art plates.

Park51 sounds like it should be a trendy dance club with overpriced, watered down drinks for douchebags in the North Park area of San Diego.

155 darthstar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:03:07pm

re: #145 SanFranciscoZionist

Sharron, I couldn’t agree more. Politics tarnishes the soul. You should stay away from it.

Today’s “This Modern World” outlines the new outrages quite nicely.

156 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:03:39pm

re: #113 Charles

The Daily Mail posits groundbreaking for 9/11/2011. Andrea Peyser at NYPost says that it will open in 2011.

That’s probably where all the talk about 9/11 and a groundbreaking/opening come from. Peyser’s dates are clearly bogus - especially since no one can build anything in NYC on that kind of expedited timeframe (just over 1 year from authorization to completion - and the final authorization by the City Council hasn’t been granted). Once those are done, it will take some time before the building is demolished and rebuilt.

157 darthstar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:03:44pm

re: #154 ArchangelMichael

Park51 sounds like it should be a trendy dance club with overpriced, watered down drinks for douchebags in the North Park area of San Diego.

It’s like Studio 54, only different.

158 Jack Burton  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:03:49pm

re: #153 SanFranciscoZionist

How else is God supposed to deliver the stuff?

With a starship?

159 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:03:51pm

re: #143 windsagio

you just have to have fun with it :)

I like Walter, I just think he’s one of the posters here that I accidentally step on some toes with occasionally. Why get in a stupid argument over someone’s opinions of the gnostic gospels when you really don’t need to? (hypothetical example)

160 Kragar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:03:56pm

re: #150 Obdicut

God turned me down for a low-APR loan, the bastard.

Reminds me of the old joke, “God, I thought you were going to help me?”

“Hey, I sent a truck, a boat and helicopter. What the hell else did you want me to do?”

161 brookly red  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:04:31pm

re: #151 windsagio

sorry, just a weird thing I noticed when I was up visiting my sister and her kids; lotsa places advertising halal menus (like wraps and such).

Oddly enough my local halal restaurant buys exclusively from the kosher butcher… this is America.

162 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:04:34pm

re: #74 JasonA

Whaa?

163 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:04:47pm

re: #152 Max D. Reinhardt

The Republican candidate for Governor of Colorado, Dan Maes, claimed today that the Denver Mayor’s “pro-bike” policies are going to lead to UN control of the city.

You know, there’s an old joke from WWI. Two German men are sitting in a cafe, and one of them says, “The war is all the fault of the Jews!”

The guy next to him nods vigorously, and says, “Yes! And the bicyclists!”

The first guy looks confused. “Why the bicyclists?”

“I don’t know. Why the Jews?”

It was supposed to be a JOKE, Mr. Maes.

164 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:04:50pm

re: #111 Judith

Excellent analogy! Yes it is a very similar situation. My friend the pizzeria owner said his community comes from a place that doesn’t understand the idea of tolerating dissent and it scares them. Eventually when his community thought about and grasped it they understood and they came back to his pizzeria.

Actually even the idea of a Muslim pizzeria is so…American isn’t it?

I’ve never been to NYC, but my ex assures me that it used to be littered with Pizzerias with names like “O’Reilly’s Pizzeria” and “Hallinna’s Pizza and Subway Stop,” etc.

So yes, a Muslim run pizzeria is very much American. Sometimes when I’m in the Mission district in San Francisco, and I want a tasty, vegetarian dinner, I purposely seek out a halal restaurant. I like choices. Another culture adds more of that to the table. Pun intended. I’m hungry!

165 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:05:12pm

On the whole the ADL is a very positive organization. They have a long track record of defending religious freedoms and not just for Jews.

Discussing that a statement made by their spokesperson was ill advised and not in character is not piling on in any sense.

I’ve taken my lumps here for supporting the Boy Scouts of America and the LDS (Mormon) Church given their political positions on gays and marriage. That doesn’t mean I’m giving up on my religion or a great organization for helping boys become good men. It also doesn’t mean that understanding others positions and beliefs is compromising my own integrity.

If you (generic you) are 100% aligned with any group or set of beliefs I would venture to guess you don’t fully comprehend the group or your own beliefs.

[soapbox]

166 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:05:49pm

re: #147 Obdicut

Heya. OT: Just checking you got the email. I do encourage you to call Mary Anne.

Yes. Email received. I will call her pronto. Thank you again. If I have more questions, is it cool to contact you again? I suspect the more I investigate, the more ideas will bubble to the surface.

167 windsagio  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:05:51pm

re: #161 brookly red

this is America.

Last I checked, yes.

Except for those who live in Canada :p

168 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:05:54pm

re: #153 SanFranciscoZionist

How else is God supposed to deliver the stuff?

Manna

169 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:06:31pm

re: #148 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Let me just quote Angle hear again, “We’re supposed to depend upon God for our protection and our provision and for our daily bread, not for our government.”

Funny, but it seems to me every time there is an emergency, I’m not really seeing mana from Heaven, but I do see U.S. troops and supplies.


How does that square with our American Government “for the people and by the people” being inspired of God?

170 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:06:36pm

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

What did HE swear in on?

Just a regular Koran, I beleive. Being second for anything doesn’t get you Thomas Jefferson’s personal copy.
/

171 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:06:46pm

re: #158 ArchangelMichael

With a starship?

Why would God need a starship when She has the U.S. Marine Corps?

172 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:07:07pm

re: #164 eclectic infidel

“Hallinna’s Pizza and Subway Stop,”

SHOULD READ,

“Hallinnans’s Pizza and Subway Shop”

WILL feed self now.

173 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:07:13pm

re: #165 DaddyG

I’ll agree with this, on the assumption this isn’t a reflection of a new ADL position in general (which I don’t think it is). If this becomes a regular thing, they’ll quickly lose at least a chunk of my support.

174 Cineaste  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:07:16pm

re: #69 Spare O’Lake

The analogy that everyone is making about the nuns at Auschwitz is such a crock of shit. That all stemmed from a Cross that was planted at Auschwitz in honor of a speech that Pope John Paul II gave there. The Jewish community objected to a cross being put on the grounds or directly in front of the torture barracks. The cross was removed and replaced a few times and then the nuns, who had backed the cross, tried to set up their convent. The key thing about all this is that they were trying to inject Christianity into Auschwitz, a place of great significance to Jews because Jews were killed for being Jewish there. This Mosque isn’t at, or even adjacent to ground zero, and it’s location is where it is because A) that particular Muslim community has been in that neighborhood for several decades and B) That’s where they were able to buy a cheap, non-landmarked property that could be built into their purposes.

175 brookly red  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:07:17pm

re: #164 eclectic infidel

I’ve never been to NYC, but my ex assures me that it used to be littered with Pizzerias with names like “O’Reilly’s Pizzeria” and “Hallinna’s Pizza and Subway Stop,” etc.

So yes, a Muslim run pizzeria is very much American. Sometimes when I’m in the Mission district in San Francisco, and I want a tasty, vegetarian dinner, I purposely seek out a halal restaurant. I like choices. Another culture adds more of that to the table. Pun intended. I’m hungry!

fyi, there are more Egyptian pizza joints than Greek dinners in NY…

176 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:07:33pm

re: #161 brookly red

Oddly enough my local halal restaurant buys exclusively from the kosher butcher… this is America.

That goes back to the old country. Jews were preferred as butchers in a number of Sunni areas.

177 Kragar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:07:53pm

re: #168 Radicchio ad Absurdum

Manna

Buy in bulk, its cheaper.

Image: mana_energy_potion_sixpack.jpg

178 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:08:11pm

re: #159 McSpiff

I like Walter, I just think he’s one of the posters here that I accidentally step on some toes with occasionally. Why get in a stupid argument over someone’s opinions of the gnostic gospels when you really don’t need to? (hypothetical example)

…you have a problem with the gnbostic gospels? *glare* //

179 windsagio  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:08:36pm

re: #176 SanFranciscoZionist

Which makes perfect sense of course, because the rules are very similar.

180 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:08:38pm

re: #166 eclectic infidel

Yes, feel free. I’d also note that if you’re able to travel, doing cruise line work is a good way to get your feet wet. They often have positions like ‘cook trainee’ if they don’t want to take you as third cook.

181 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:09:06pm

re: #177 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Heh

182 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:09:20pm

re: #156 lawhawk

Peyser’s dates are clearly bogus - especially since no one can build anything in NYC on that kind of expedited timeframe…

The truth is stranger than fiction and far, far funnier.

183 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:09:41pm

re: #175 brookly red

fyi, there are more Egyptian pizza joints than Greek dinners in NY…

My favorite pizza delivery place is called Amazona’s. They’re Brazilian and they make superb pizza. And their delivery people - probably all from the same family - are beautiful, both the men and women, even though I’m partial to women. Dark golden skin, bright blue eyes, and that accent. Wowza.

184 brookly red  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:10:30pm

re: #176 SanFranciscoZionist

That goes back to the old country. Jews were preferred as butchers in a number of Sunni areas.

I did not know that… but around here I think it’s more like you shop where Vinny says you shop.

185 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:10:37pm

re: #180 Obdicut

Yes, feel free. I’d also note that if you’re able to travel, doing cruise line work is a good way to get your feet wet. They often have positions like ‘cook trainee’ if they don’t want to take you as third cook.

I am already thinking about that. I love to travel and my cats can easily stay with my folks up north.

186 windsagio  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:10:56pm

damn you people and your food talk. I’ll…. be right back >>

187 brookly red  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:11:14pm

re: #183 eclectic infidel

My favorite pizza delivery place is called Amazona’s. They’re Brazilian and they make superb pizza. And their delivery people - probably all from the same family - are beautiful, both the men and women, even though I’m partial to women. Dark golden skin, bright blue eyes, and that accent. Wowza.

calm dowm… how is the pizza?

188 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:11:19pm

re: #97 Charles

With due respect, Charles, you should know better than to raise straw men.

For the record, the chain I was commenting on started with a comparison of both sites as sources of immense pain to the victims. It is in that sense, and that sense only, that the comparison is apt.

189 Kragar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:11:27pm

re: #186 windsagio

damn you people and your food talk. I’ll… be right back >>

I just had delicious spicy pork tacos. mmm

190 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:11:55pm

re: #179 windsagio

Which makes perfect sense of course, because the rules are very similar.

The kosher ones are also a little more rigorous, so it was assumed that if you got from a Jewish butcher, you were getting the really properly done stuff.

191 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:12:09pm

re: #185 eclectic infidel

I am already thinking about that. I love to travel and my cats can easily stay with my folks up north.

Then I advise going for those jobs— there’s a much smaller applicant pool. They can be hell, of course, and you’re trapped with no possibility of walking out the door, but in this economy, for a new chef, it is probably a good bet.

I’m going to go do some cooking of my own for m going-away party.

See y’all later.

192 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:12:33pm

re: #184 brookly red

I did not know that… but around here I think it’s more like you shop where Vinny says you shop.

I’m glad Vinnie is supporting kosher businesses then.

193 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:13:11pm

re: #184 brookly red

I did not know that… but around here I think it’s more like you shop where Vinny says you shop.

I’ve heard of Sunni and Shi’a Muslims but Vinny Muslims has to be unique to New York.

194 brookly red  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:14:17pm

re: #192 SanFranciscoZionist

I’m glad Vinnie is supporting kosher businesses then.

why not they support his trash hauling service?

195 Kragar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:15:10pm

re: #193 DaddyG

I’ve heard of Sunni and Shi’a Muslims but Vinny Muslims has to be unique to New York.

Thinking of the Dennis Hopper and Christopher Walken scene from True Romance, but I’m not gonna say anything.

WAIT, DAMN.

196 brookly red  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:15:25pm

re: #193 DaddyG

I’ve heard of Sunni and Shi’a Muslims but Vinny Muslims has to be unique to New York.

you got a problem with that?

197 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:17:41pm

re: #195 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Thinking of the Dennis Hopper and Christopher Walken scene from True Romance, but I’m not gonna say anything.

WAIT, DAMN.

Look out, you will end up with egg on your face

198 pharmmajor  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:17:57pm

Nice to see some reason prevail in all this madness.

199 Cineaste  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:18:41pm

re: #188 sliv_the_eli

With due respect, Charles, you should know better than to raise straw men.

For the record, the chain I was commenting on started with a comparison of both sites as sources of immense pain to the victims. It is in that sense, and that sense only, that the comparison is apt.

Also, can someone point me to the big giant list of victims’ families that are starting this BS about Park51? Oh right, there isn’t one. It’s carpet baggers from other places who love to deride those of us in New York as East Coast Liberals who don’t understand the world except when they need our mourning and our trama to support their ignorance. They drum up hatred and ignorance and then roll out “victims” as their martyrs. Remember when these same ignorant assholes were calling some of those same victims “harpies”? Right… see, they just want the victims they can use, they don’t really give a fuck.

I live less than a mile from Ground Zero. I lost a friend there. Other friends of mine fled for their lives and saw bodies land around them. I watched from the front of my apartment as my city was consumed in smoke and dust when the towers fell that morning. I spent the better part of a week on lock-down breathing the burning ashes and wiping them off my window sills and mourning every moment.

I don’t give a flying fuck if someone wants to have a muslim community center there.

200 Kragar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:19:28pm

re: #197 Radicchio ad Absurdum

Look out, you will end up with egg on your face

Hey, I’m Italian and I get a laugh from it every time.

201 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:19:32pm

re: #142 eclectic infidel

You mean he’s not???


/do I have to?

202 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:19:54pm

re: #198 pharmmajor

Nice to see some reason prevail in all this madness.

Yeah… but it really slows down the discussion. Quick - someone bring up global warming!

203 freetoken  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:19:56pm

Slightly OT: today being the President’s birthday, has there been any new rabid outbursts from the ‘nirther crowd and such?

204 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:20:24pm

re: #188 sliv_the_eli

With due respect, Charles, you should know better than to raise straw men.

For the record, the chain I was commenting on started with a comparison of both sites as sources of immense pain to the victims. It is in that sense, and that sense only, that the comparison is apt.

1.) Some of the innocent victims were muslim.

2.) None of the victims died at the Burlington Coat Factory.

3.) Why should anybody be allowed to speak for the feelings and opinions of such a large, diverse group without having tracked down and polled every single member of it?

205 darthstar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:20:38pm

re: #201 sliv_the_eli

You mean he’s not???

/do I have to?

There’s a 50 comment grace period to add a sarc tag. You missed it.

206 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:21:04pm

re: #203 freetoken

Slightly OT: today being the President’s birthday, has there been any new rabid outbursts from the ‘nirther crowd and such?


Don’t you mean the anniversary of his hatching? //

207 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:21:12pm

re: #200 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Hey, I’m Italian and I get a laugh from it every time.

T’was a joke, and also the one of the last things Walken said after offing Hopper. I actually think it is one of the best scenes in movie history. I think it may have been ad lib, but I could be wrong on that.

208 brookly red  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:21:47pm

re: #203 freetoken

Slightly OT: today being the President’s birthday, has there been any new rabid outbursts from the ‘nirther crowd and such?

/no but every one is wondering why he is not spending it with his wife…

209 wrenchwench  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:21:52pm

re: #203 freetoken

Slightly OT: today being the President’s birthday, has there been any new rabid outbursts from the ‘nirther crowd and such?

I think Nirthday Parties have broken out all over Twitter.

210 freetoken  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:21:52pm

re: #206 DaddyG

Don’t you mean the anniversary of his hatching? //

What? Are you saying Muslims “hatch”?


/just saying…

211 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:22:39pm

re: #210 freetoken

What? Are you saying Muslims “hatch”?


/just saying…


Muzlum Space Aliuns do!

212 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:23:27pm

re: #208 brookly red

/no but every one is wondering why he is not spending it with his wife…

What’s he doing?

213 MJ  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:23:52pm

At least they’re not claiming that they “all look alike”.

No, I don’t mean the blonds either:

Fox host apologizes for Sherrod-Waters mixup

news.yahoo.com

214 brookly red  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:24:11pm

re: #211 DaddyG

Muzlum Space Aliuns do!

I love the scene where it bursts out of the guys chest!

215 freetoken  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:24:14pm

re: #211 DaddyG

Oh yeah, I forgot about the Tau Ceti place of birth….

It looks like Steele’s RNC is as classy as ever:
Obama Birthday Cards: RNC Celebrates By Mocking The President

216 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:25:11pm

I’m a one blog kind of guy- just the occasional peek and opine when the office is slow. So feeling the shift of the LGF crowd and not agreeing with everyones viewpoint I wondered if I could find another discussion forum worth my time as a “kinder, gentler, saner, conservative.”

I could not.

Thanks for being Lizards- at least I know I can have a generally intelligent conversation with this crowd.

217 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:25:42pm

re: #205 darthstar

Sorry. I though I got the usual 25% increase for Jewish time.

218 brookly red  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:25:43pm

re: #212 SanFranciscoZionist

What’s he doing?

well she jetted of to Spain, and he is in Chicago slamin beers with Bill & the boys…

219 webevintage  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:26:23pm

re: #218 brookly red

well she jetted of to Spain, and he is in Chicago slamin beers with Bill & the boys…

I’m sure this means…something….

220 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:27:20pm

re: #218 brookly red

well she jetted of to Spain, and he is in Chicago slamin beers with Bill & the boys…

That sounds nice.

221 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:27:31pm

re: #216 DaddyG

at least I know I can have a generally intelligent conversation with this crowd.

Huh !?!?
do you have to use such big words!!?!?

222 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:28:18pm

re: #27 SanFranciscoZionist

“This time, the white folks get freed too.”

Yes. Because last time we left them languishing in chains.

Jeez. Is there something wrong with simply saying, “Lower taxes and smaller government will benefit the black community,” or something?

It has no emotional content, it doesn’t grab the conservative public by the balls.

223 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:28:27pm

re: #215 freetoken

Oh yeah, I forgot about the Tau Ceti place of birth…

It looks like Steele’s RNC is as classy as ever:
Obama Birthday Cards: RNC Celebrates By Mocking The President


OK The Biden one is hilarious. “For your birthday you won’t hear a f#%@$@ peep out of me”.

Anyone with the Presidents job has to expect some ribbing (Ask GWB). Although I question the GOPs judgement in being the source of the ribbing.

224 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:29:29pm

re: #204 goddamnedfrank

You may find it difficult to believe, but I agree with all three points. Nobody gets the right to appoint themselves spokesperson and, in fact, there are differing views on the subject among the families, friends and survivors of the 9/11 attacks. On the other hand, empathy for the pain of others is generally considered a good thing, and I find nothing wrong with speaking out. That’s how the free marketplace of ideas works in a democracy. And — to bring this back to the beginnign of the thread — the political process has run its course, and has ruled in favor of the legal rights of the property owners to build their community center. The ADL has therefore rightly said that it will not continue to oppose that decision.

225 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:29:42pm

Excuse me for being away… one of those “create or save” job people on the phone with me… census long form… it took him 30 minutes just to go over the questions pertaining to ME. Still have to answer questions about 3 other people… not a happy camper.

226 Kragar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:30:17pm

From Drudge, no article or official word yet;

SOURCE: CA Prop 8 held to be unconstitutional under due process and equal protection. Court enjoins enforcement of Prop 8…

227 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:31:16pm

re: #226 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

From Drudge, no article or official word yet;

SOURCE: CA Prop 8 held to be unconstitutional under due process and equal protection. Court enjoins enforcement of Prop 8…

Good.

228 brookly red  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:31:28pm

re: #225 Walter L. Newton

Excuse me for being away… one of those “create or save” job people on the phone with me… census long form… it took him 30 minutes just to go over the questions pertaining to ME. Still have to answer questions about 3 other people… not a happy camper.

long form? uh-oh you done got picked for the dreaded census audit! get a lawyer quick!

229 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:32:30pm

re: #226 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

From Drudge, no article or official word yet;

SOURCE: CA Prop 8 held to be unconstitutional under due process and equal protection. Court enjoins enforcement of Prop 8…

I’ve got ABC7 running live. Let you know if anything comes through.

230 darthstar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:32:38pm

Kingmaker Palin fails again:

(from her facebook endorsement page)

Sarah Palin I want to remind the good people of Kansas to vote on Tuesday for Todd Tiahrt for U.S. Senate. He is a strong commonsense conservative who will serve Kansans with honor and help put our country on the right fiscal track.

Tiahrt lost to, get this, Todd Moran! …and he still needs to buy a vowel.

231 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:33:00pm

Sounds like they haven’t heard yet.

232 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:33:10pm

re: #228 brookly red

long form? uh-oh you done got picked for the dreaded census audit! get a lawyer quick!

He asked me if we grew or sold any agricultural products from our property… I answered “pot.”

I wasn’t very cooperative.

233 Kragar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:33:28pm

Group sues to stop mosque near NY’s ground zero

A conservative advocacy group founded by the Rev. Pat Robertson is suing to try to block a planned Islamic community center and mosque near ground zero.

The mosque proposal has become a fulcrum for balancing religious freedom and the legacy of the Sept. 11 attacks. It would be two blocks from ground zero.

The American Center for Law and Justice says it filed a petition Wednesday challenging a city panel’s decision to let developers tear down a building to make way for the mosque.

234 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:33:36pm

re: #33 Judith

I fear the Islamization of the North America by Wahhabists. The Saudi Block has used their wealth and power to pretty much take over most mosques in North America and fill them with radicals in positions of power, especially over those counselling youth. I have a lot of Muslim friends who won’t let their kids go to the mosques for fear of the radical there and who feel they have been forced out of their mosques after radical took over.

What is this - ‘the sky is falling’ argument?

I am not Christian

Who cares?

235 brookly red  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:33:46pm

re: #220 SanFranciscoZionist

That sounds nice.

yeah well the other daughter is at camp… can you imagine the poor counselors?

236 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:34:14pm

re: #230 darthstar

Kingmaker Palin fails again:

(from her facebook endorsement page)

Tiahrt lost to, get this, Todd Moran! …and he still needs to buy a vowel.

I can’t imagine that the average Kansan checks with Sarah Palin’s Facebook to see who to vote for.

237 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:34:33pm

re: #232 Walter L. Newton

He asked me if we grew or sold any agricultural products from our property… I answered “pot.”

I wasn’t very cooperative.

KNOCK KNOCK!!

238 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:35:01pm

re: #187 brookly red

calm dowm… how is the pizza?

The pizza is fresh, savory, creative and addicting. A gem of a find here in Oakland. Here’s a sampling of the menu:

Amazonia: tomatoes, heart of palm, corn, red onions, linguica

Jaguar: salami, pepperoni, American bacon, linguica, italian sausage, beef

Lua: pesto, spinach, green olives, tomatoes, feta, garlic

Bubi: white sauce, garlic chicken, tomatoes, pinenuts

There are 14 standard pizzas they make in addition to creating your own (my fav is garlic, tomatoes and linquica). They have NY style pizzas, thin crust pizzas, even dessert pizzas.

Amazona’s Pizza (dot com) @[no phone numbers allowed]

239 brookly red  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:35:10pm

re: #232 Walter L. Newton

He asked me if we grew or sold any agricultural products from our property… I answered “pot.”

I wasn’t very cooperative.

not smart…now the IRS will look into you un-incorporated business status.

240 darthstar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:35:15pm

Prop 8 goes down. Expect wingnuttia to explode.

241 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:36:10pm

re: #224 sliv_the_eli

On the other hand, empathy for the pain of others is generally considered a good thing, and I find nothing wrong with speaking out.

If you want to speak out about pain and empathy, fine, then go talk to the cross, because the people who approved that up sure as shit didn’t give a rat’s ass about representing equality.

242 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:36:37pm

re: #231 SanFranciscoZionist

Sounds like they haven’t heard yet.

OK, ABC7 is no longer talking to me. I can see a group of people standing in front of SF Federal Court. They are holding a big rainbow flag, little American flags, and two signs saying “We All Deserve The Freedom To Marry”.

I expect Zombie will not cover this, since everyone is fully dressed and looks quite respectable.

243 webevintage  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:36:40pm

re: #215 freetoken

Oh yeah, I forgot about the Tau Ceti place of birth…

It looks like Steele’s RNC is as classy as ever:
Obama Birthday Cards: RNC Celebrates By Mocking The President

Those are lame…except for the Biden one which did make me chuckle a bit.

244 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:36:45pm

re: #240 darthstar

Prop 8 goes down. Expect wingnuttia to explode.

Somehow that phrase fits!!

(yes ,, I’m a sick man ,, whats it to you !?!!?)

245 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:36:50pm

re: #232 Walter L. Newton

He asked me if we grew or sold any agricultural products from our property… I answered “pot.”

I wasn’t very cooperative.

Walter, stop hassling the Census people.

246 Kragar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:37:11pm

re: #240 darthstar

Prop 8 goes down. Expect wingnuttia to explode.

I must get to my torch and pitchfork concession ASAP!

247 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:37:46pm

re: #235 brookly red

yeah well the other daughter is at camp… can you imagine the poor counselors?

Do the Secret Service guys get to wear aloha shirts and shorts while the president’s kid is at camp?

248 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:38:34pm

re: #240 darthstar

Prop 8 goes down. Expect wingnuttia to explode.

For real? I’m watching the scene outside the courthouse.

Wait. I heard a whoop somewhere inside the building.

249 brookly red  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:38:44pm

re: #247 SanFranciscoZionist

Do the Secret Service guys get to wear aloha shirts and shorts while the president’s kid is at camp?

yes but the body armor still makes you sweat like a pig….

250 darthstar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:38:56pm

re: #244 sattv4u2

Somehow that phrase fits!!

(yes ,, I’m a sick man ,, whats it to you !?!!?)

I had originally added “like a sorority girl after three Long Islands” but decided against it…I’m just happy the first battle has been won…though I have little hope that today’s SCOTUS will uphold the lower courts’ rulings when it gets to them.

251 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:39:03pm

re: #247 SanFranciscoZionist

Do the Secret Service guys get to wear aloha shirts and shorts while the president’s kid is at camp?

I thought Aloha shirts were more a Hawaiin thing, not Indonesia!!
//

252 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:39:39pm

They’re screaming. They’ve all run off toward the building steps.

253 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:40:16pm

re: #245 SanFranciscoZionist

Walter, stop hassling the Census people.

Have you seen the long form questions? Financial questions about your mortgage, property taxes, salaries, personal information I wouldn’t trust a priest with. I found the questions to be very intrusive and very personal.

254 Kragar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:40:27pm

re: #252 SanFranciscoZionist

They’re screaming. They’ve all run off toward the building steps.

Which side?

255 darthstar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:40:41pm

re: #252 SanFranciscoZionist

They’re screaming. They’ve all run off toward the building steps.

I wish I still worked at 1st and Market…I’d be there in a heartbeat.

256 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:40:43pm

re: #241 goddamnedfrank

There is a wee bit of misunderstanding about that cross. For starters - the steel cross was found in the site following the collapse.

The cross-like structure that has become so familiar was found among the ruins after that tragic day, but was moved temporarily as new construction begins at the World Trade Center site.

At a time when it seemed there was no hope, the T-shaped steel beam continued to stand among the rubble and the smoking ruins of the Twin Towers.

The 20-foot tall cross-shaped beams that were once a part of World Trade Center No. 6, have been an important fixture at the site for family members, rescue workers and people who have come to visit over the year.

This is why officials have gone to great lengths to make sure it’s being taken from and returned to the site properly.

After its discovery, relief workers set it up as a memorial to all those murdered. It is now located down the block at St. Peter’s Church. It’s expected to be moved back to Ground Zero as part of the 9/11 WTC Memorial/Museum.

257 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:40:44pm

re: #253 Walter L. Newton

Have you seen the long form questions? Financial questions about your mortgage, property taxes, salaries, personal information I wouldn’t trust a priest with. I found the questions to be very intrusive and very personal.

Sorry to hear it.

258 brookly red  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:41:00pm

re: #254 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Which side?

/the left?

259 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:41:09pm

re: #254 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Which side?

To the right, toward the doors…oh, wait, well, they had a rainbow flag.

260 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:41:13pm

re: #219 webevintage

I’m sure this means…something…

Where’s Oliver Stone when you need him? *cough*

261 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:41:25pm

re: #253 Walter L. Newton

you’ve got mail

262 Kragar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:41:58pm

re: #260 eclectic infidel

Where’s Oliver Stone when you need him? *cough*

Down and to the left…Down and to the left…

263 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:42:21pm

re: #255 darthstar

I wish I still worked at 1st and Market…I’d be there in a heartbeat.

The reporter has gone quiet again. They’ve refocused the cameras. Group is huddled outside the door of the Federal courthouse, and I really can’t see anything.

264 avanti  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:42:42pm

Prop 8 California vote to ban gay marriage overturned just now by court.

265 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:42:52pm

re: #255 darthstar

I wish I still worked at 1st and Market…I’d be there in a heartbeat.

Jaysus, I should have gone into the City today. Didn’t even think about it.

My status as a bridesmaid is riding on this, folks…

266 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:42:54pm

re: #260 eclectic infidel

Where’s Oliver Stone when you need him? *cough*

hanging Hitler and Chavez posters in his house!
//

267 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:44:22pm

Screaming and what I think is cheering coming from the group by the doors.

268 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:44:49pm

re: #261 sattv4u2

you’ve got mail

I’ll check… I have to get to work… I’ll answer later… or soon, I have a shift this afternoon and then to the fitness club and then a unusual 8 hour DAY shift tomorrow, a 9-5 sort of day (I don’t know how I got that)… so I’ll get back to you ASAP.

269 Kragar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:45:27pm

re: #264 avanti

Prop 8 California vote to ban gay marriage overturned just now by court.

In rebuttal, those favoring a ban have released this image;

Image: faee87b8a65148b2_91f468af118aa9cf_o.jpg

270 darthstar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:45:38pm

re: #267 SanFranciscoZionist

Screaming and what I think is cheering coming from the group by the doors.

Where are you watching this? Is it streaming?

271 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:46:08pm

“With Carolyn, without Carolyn, we need to know,” a voice just said crisply off-camera.

272 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:46:23pm

re: #270 darthstar

Where are you watching this? Is it streaming?

abclocal.go.com

Yes.

273 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:46:57pm

re: #268 Walter L. Newton

I’ll check… I have to get to work… I’ll answer later… or soon, I have a shift this afternoon and then to the fitness club and then a unusual 8 hour DAY shift tomorrow, a 9-5 sort of day (I don’t know how I got that)… so I’ll get back to you ASAP.

No rush

274 darthstar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:47:10pm

re: #272 SanFranciscoZionist

Thanks

275 AlexRogan  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:47:13pm

re: #107 Surabaya Stew

OT — repostong from the previous thread:

and now for the conclusion of my INS experience:

We ended up in a second waiting room filled with at least 50 other hopefull immigrants, some of whom had been waiting over an hour. But the lizard hopes and prayers came through and we were called for our interview within 30 seconds! (all the eyes in the room were looking our way!) The government interviewer was a West Indian lady whom coulndnt have been more polite and pleasant as we sailed through with flying colors. My wife (Surabaya Sue) is now blessed with a green card!

Thanks for all the support, lizards!

Huzzah!!!

re: #233 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Group sues to stop mosque near NY’s ground zero

Why am I not surprised that Pat Robertson gets involved in this, directly or indirectly?

276 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:48:05pm

re: #274 darthstar

Thanks

Carolyn was located. She is now on camera.

277 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:50:09pm

Has prop 8 been struck down? I need a link!!

278 darthstar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:51:15pm

re: #277 eclectic infidel

Has prop 8 been struck down? I need a link!!

It looks that way…the live stream is linked by SFZ above.

279 Kragar  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:51:35pm

re: #277 eclectic infidel

Has prop 8 been struck down? I need a link!!

2 threads up.

280 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 1:54:57pm

As reported on Pam’s House Blend:

Prop 8 is overturned!

281 garhighway  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 2:03:59pm

re: #188 sliv_the_eli

With due respect, Charles, you should know better than to raise straw men.

For the record, the chain I was commenting on started with a comparison of both sites as sources of immense pain to the victims. It is in that sense, and that sense only, that the comparison is apt.

They are both in the Northern Hemisphere. They both involve places were people died. They both involve places where gravity is 1.0 Earth standard.

There are many ways in which the comparison is apt. Just none that matter.

282 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 2:20:50pm

Siwwy gubmint!

283 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 2:29:59pm

re: #281 garhighway

They are both in the Northern Hemisphere. They both involve places were people died. They both involve places where gravity is 1.0 Earth standard.

There are many ways in which the comparison is apt. Just none that matter.

The comparison is indeed apt. The survivors and countrymen of the victims of 9-11, like the survivors and families of the victims of the holocaust, all harboured great animosity toward those who they believe to have perpetrated and acquiesced in the dastardly deeds.
It is these feelings of hostility and collective blame which are in fact the wounds which need to be healed.
In the case of the holocaust, it has taken generations for most to stop blaming all Germans for the holocaust, even those who were children during the war.
In the case of 9-11 many still blame most Muslims for the attacks, even those who have done nothing worse than to have remained silent out of fear. Many feel betrayed and wounded by the silence, not to mention the hurtful words of those who lectured and blamed the victims and US foreign policy.
These wounds are still fresh and there is a healing process under way which some, like the ADL, believe will not be advanced by the project as currently located and planned.

284 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 2:42:22pm

re: #283 Spare O’Lake

Well said.

285 garhighway  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 2:52:46pm

re: #283 Spare O’Lake

The comparison is indeed apt. The survivors and countrymen of the victims of 9-11, like the survivors and families of the victims of the holocaust, all harboured great animosity toward those who they believe to have perpetrated and acquiesced in the dastardly deeds.
It is these feelings of hostility and collective blame which are in fact the wounds which need to be healed.
In the case of the holocaust, it has taken generations for most to stop blaming all Germans for the holocaust, even those who were children during the war.
In the case of 9-11 many still blame most Muslims for the attacks, even those who have done nothing worse than to have remained silent out of fear. Many feel betrayed and wounded by the silence, not to mention the hurtful words of those who lectured and blamed the victims and US foreign policy.
These wounds are still fresh and there is a healing process under way which some, like the ADL, believe will not be advanced by the project as currently located and planned.

I respectfully disagree. First there is the multiple order of magnitude difference in the events (3000 vs 6000000 is kind of significant). Second, the Holocaust was aimed at one ethnic/religious subgroup. 9/11 hit lots, including many from the ethnic/religious subgroup whose rights some now want to restrict.

I don’t blame the subset of 9/11 victims that oppose the project for believing what they believe. But that’s one reason why we have laws: to take important questions out of the hands of the directly aggrieved. That’s why we don’t let crime victims do sentencing. That’s why we don’t let your next door neighbor decide what you can build on your property. Because we want fairness and predictability. As the opposition to mosques in California and Tennessee have shown, this isn’t about the location for the vast majority of those who oppose the project. It’s about mosques in America. Are there some who oppose the project in good faith? Sure. A few. But their objections ought not drive public policy.

286 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 2:55:50pm
287 Kruk  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 2:56:54pm

re: #12 LudwigVanQuixote

A Black tea partier is prima fascia more crazy than most.

Or just feeding the crocodile in the hope it will eat him last.

288 Kruk  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 2:59:37pm

re: #18 DaddyG

He’s easy to find. He’s the one on the Ranch in Crawford Texas muttering “screw them if they don’t like me…” behind the wood pile.

Awww. If you’re reading this, Dubya, there’s at least one person out here eagerly waiting for your memoir.

Yeah, I’m a liberal who has a grudging admiration for GWB. I can’t quite expain it.

289 Kruk  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 3:03:39pm

re: #26 darthstar

Conservatives are doubling-down on stupidity. I don’t know if the Democratic party can reach deep enough into their bag of self-sabotaging techniques to give the GOP the victory it keeps predicting this fall. It really will be a test of their ability to pull defeat from the jaws of victory.

I’m not sure about that. Like someone said ‘It’s the econonmy, stupid’. If it stays in the tank, expect the party in power to get a hammering no matter how smart they are or how crazy the opposition is. Of course, if people elect the foaming at the mouth wingnuts to office, they get the Government they deserve.

290 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 3:23:10pm

re: #283 Spare O’Lake

I disagree 100%. The comparison between a convent at Auschwitz and the community center two blocks from Ground Zero is outrageously, stupidly overblown, and exaggerated beyond belief. To compare an act of terrorism with the systematic genocide carried out by a national government against millions of people is Holocaust minimization.

291 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 3:24:16pm

And another sleeper awakes.

292 Kruk  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 3:24:42pm

re: #152 Max D. Reinhardt

The Republican candidate for Governor of Colorado, Dan Maes, claimed today that the Denver Mayor’s “pro-bike” policies are going to lead to UN control of the city.

So even the UN is trading down from Black Helicoptors to bikes? Man, this reccession blows.

293 Kruk  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 3:27:56pm

re: #158 ArchangelMichael

With a starship?

‘Excuse me, but what does God need a spaceship?’

(Bonus marks to anyone who gets that one)

294 garhighway  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 3:30:53pm

re: #293 Kruk

‘Excuse me, but what does God need a spaceship?’

(Bonus marks to anyone who gets that one)

Was that 4 or 5? Since the even numbered ones were the good ones, I am guessing 5.

295 Kruk  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 3:36:05pm

re: #294 garhighway

Was that 4 or 5? Since the even numbered ones were the good ones, I am guessing 5.

Star Trek V. And yeah, it stretched the bounds of plausibility just a little.

296 garhighway  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 3:36:54pm

re: #295 Kruk

Star Trek V. And yeah, it stretched the bounds of plausibility just a little.

And yet I loved them all.

297 Kruk  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 3:42:08pm

re: #296 garhighway

Heh. I loved the original series movies, but some of the Next Gen movies just felt like extended episodes (Insurrection in particular.)

298 garhighway  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 3:44:27pm

re: #297 Kruk

Heh. I loved the original series movies, but some of the Next Gen movies just felt like extended episodes (Insurrection in particular.)

Yeah, but bad sci-fi is better than no sci-fi.

299 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 3:51:05pm

Opposing the “Ground Zero Mosque” in the first place was nothing but populist ‘kneejerkism’, how stupid do you have to be as a Jew to oppose another religions rights to freely practice their religion?

Ban Islam today, then what? Who is next? The Jewish faith, Scientology, Mormons? Whose religion are we going to decide “just isn’t acceptable” next?

Where are all the “slippery slope” people now? Mainly on the wrong side of the argument that’s where. They should be screaming at the top of their lungs about persecution of religion, instead they are the ones backing it.

I’m still constantly amazed by how easy it is for the demagogue’s to get so many people to campaign against their own best interests with a little bit of propaganda.

300 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 9:05:02pm

re: #290 Charles

Wow, 100%, that’s pretty strong disagreement. What, exactly, do you disagree with in his post? That some might think it appropriate to consider the pain of those who lost loved ones at the WTC on 9/11? Sorry, Charles, but on this one I think you are letting your strong antipathy to the right wing demagogues blind you to a fairly simple note of empathy for those who suffered.

Oh, and for the record, I agree with your view that Holocaust analogies are way overdone and that the Cordoba House issue was seized on by demagogues and racists on the right. But neither Spare O’Lake nor I have said the Holocaust and 9/11 are comparable or that the right wing demagogues are right, only that we understand the desire of some to try and show some sympathy for the still open emotional wounds of those who were direclty affected by the terrorist attacks at the WTC. As for the knee-jerk, misguided and intellectually dishonest responses to our respective posts , I frankly find them disappointing; I had come to expect a more mature discourse at LGF over the years (even if I have generally been a sleeper).

301 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 9:07:51pm

Oh, and for the record, I have no problem with anyone opening a house of worship anywhere they damn well please in this country. Something about the First Amendment and the right to freedom of conscience applying to everyone, not just those I agree with. A lesson some seem to have forgotten today.

302 ihateronpaul  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 9:45:18pm

I took one look at this and was like “wow, the ADL seems to really want to drive the point home that they believe in rights for all…except muslims.”

It’s a real shame, for they have done some great work. But moves like this are absurd. They give fuel to their detractors who negatively and eagerly label the adl as a “jewish-first group.” You can’t show true tolerance if you do it animal farm style….

303 changomo  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 10:18:05pm

sorry if missed earlier in the thread if this question was addressed….

My view on the whole Park 51 is this. They should be allowed to build it….but it is also completely valid to say it is incredibly insensitive to the victims to do so…

Similar to how nuns set up near Auschwitz with nothing but the best intentions to pray for the souls of victims…it created a firestorm with Jews…The pope stepped in and asked the nuns to relocate farther away….

I’m just saying that the organizers have to recognize that having the right to do something doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do.”

304 ClaudeMonet  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 1:29:04am

re: #12 LudwigVanQuixote

A Black tea partier is prima fascia more crazy than most.

prima facie

re: #57 webevintage

It is 104 degrees here in Arkansas.
But hey, it’s a dry heat!

Carson—“When I die, if I go [points to floor], there’ll be someone from Southern California saying, ‘But it’s a dry heat!’.”

re: #69 Spare O’Lake

If the proponents seek to build it two blocks away, the response will be, “Too close, built it ten blocks away”. If ten blocks away, “Too close, build it 25 blocks away”. If 25 blocks away, “Too close, build it five miles away”. And so on ad infinitum.

re: #71 Judith


I will also add this. As the newcomers adjust to society in the west they also compromise on those parts of their doctrine that are incompatible to their new home. An example would be how Mormons had a revelation about polygamy around the time of Utah statehood. So not all of this suspicion is simply unwarranted bigotry.

The fact that the federal government basically said, “Polygamy or statehood, your call”, had nothing to do with it./

re: #161 brookly red

Oddly enough my local halal restaurant buys exclusively from the kosher butcher… this is America.

You’re going to get that restaurant’s owner in all kinds of trouble.

re: #233 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Group sues to stop mosque near NY’s ground zero

One of the most aggravating things about moonbat advocacy groups is that they butt in where they have no standing.

One of the most aggravating things about wingnut advocacy groups is that they do the same damned thing.

One talks about the right to privacy but allows none. The other talks about wanting to be left alone but doesn’t allow the same thing.

305 Nene1  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:41:44am

re: #293 Kruk
This reference anything to do with a certain Erich Von Daninken ?
(May have spelt that wrong )


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The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ...
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