9/11 Families Who Support Park51 Community Center

US News • Views: 4,335

It’s time for the Bigot Brigade to stop claiming they speak for all the 9/11 families when they rant against the “Ground Zero mosque” (which is neither a mosque nor at Ground Zero), because there are victim’s families who see clearly that the opposition to Park51 is driven by sheer prejudice: 9/11 Victims’ Families Have Mixed Reactions to Ground Zero Muslim Center.

Herb Ouida, whose son Todd died in the attacks, says he supports the Cordoba Initiative’s project.

“To call it a mosque is not right. It’s a community center that includes a prayer center,” Ouida told AOL News today.

The 68-year-old father from River Edge, N.J., says he is deeply concerned about the tone of some of the opposition to the project.

“What we are doing [when we oppose the community center] is we are saying to the world that we are at war with Islam. And we can’t be. I want my grandchildren to live in a better world,” he said.

“To say that we’re going to condemn a religion and castigate a billion people in the world because they’re Muslims, to say that they shouldn’t have the ability to pray near the World Trade Center — I don’t think that’s going to bring people together and cross the divide.”

[…]

On 9/11, Marvin Bethea rushed to the World Trade Center to try to save lives, and has had trouble breathing ever since. The former Emergency Medical Services worker says he had to retire in 2004 when the breathing problems he acquired from toxic materials at the site made it too hard for him to work. But Bethea said he supports the Islamic center anyway.

“Even though my life has changed, I don’t hate the Muslims,” Bethea, 50, said. “Especially being a black man, I know what it’s like to be discriminated against. I’ve lived with that.”

Bethea believes racism is stoking the controversy.

“I understand the families are hurt and lost,” he said. But “how do you sit here and condemn all Muslims as being terrorists?” he said. “That’s just bigotry and hatred. We’re a better nation than that. The diversity that we have, this is what New York is about. But we have such prejudices, some of us. We have a long way to go.”

There are also some quotes from people who’ve given in to the fear-mongering and blind hatred, but you already know what they have to say so I won’t bother quoting them.

Jump to bottom

153 comments
1 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:01:48am

Obviously, these 9/11 families are pawns of the creeping Muslim overlords.
///

2 garhighway  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:04:43am

All the names of the people quoted are funny, un-American names with lots of vowels, so they don’t count.

3 PT Barnum  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:09:36am

re: #2 garhighway

All the names of the people quoted are funny, un-American names with lots of vowels, so they don’t count.

Phonemist!

4 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:09:58am

If you queried families of 9/11 victims, you’d find a wide range of opinion.

You’d have some opposed to any and all construction at Ground Zero.

You’d have some who demand that the 2 million tons of debris moved to Fresh Kills be relocated back to Ground Zero rather than sit atop a landfill; that 2 million tons likely includes remains of victims pulverized by the collapsing towers and ensuing fires that lasted for weeks following the collapses.

You’d have some opposed to any commercial towers built on the site, including the Freedom Tower.

You’d have some opposed to the master plan proffered by the Port Authority.
You’d have opposition to the master plan proffered by Daniel Libeskind.
You’d have opposition to the modified master plan as amended by the Port Authority and their starchitects.

I could go on, but you get the picture. When you have any project of any size in NYC, you’re bound to get differing opinions. When you have a project relating to Ground Zero, those opinions get magnified.

These folks are getting their voices crowded out by those who are far more vocal in their opposition. Even here, we can see that the talking points have taken hold - where some will claim that the project will tower over Ground Zero, even though the intervening skyscrapers are far taller. Now, one could argue that metaphorically the Islamic community center/mosque will loom over Ground Zero, but its proponents say that they are looking to build bridges between the community and Muslims living and working in Lower Manhattan.

5 Gus  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:10:04am

re: #2 garhighway

All the names of the people quoted are funny, un-American names with lots of vowels, so they don’t count.

Don’t worry. That’s the first thing the wingnuts will notice. I’m pretty sure they’ll also go out of their way to perform some kind of background check.

6 kenhe  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:10:41am

Th vst mjrty f ths wh lst lvd ns n 9/11 r vhmntly ppsd t th cnstrctn f Mslm Cntr nywhr nr Grnd Zr. Ths s bcs thy s t, crrctly, s wy fr th Mslms t thr clbrt thr “vctry” vr th Grt Stn, th S, n 9/11, r t try t mnmz th fct tht th 9/11 mss mrdr ws crrd t by nd jyflly clbrtd by Mslms n mrc nd thrght th wrld.
Tht thr r fw dzn msgdd ndvdls wh lst rltvs n 9/11 wh spprt th bldng f Mslm Cntr s shmfl nd n nslt t th mmry f ths wh wr brtlly mrdrd, nd ths ppl r scrnd by th vst mjrty wh pps th bldng.

7 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:11:51am

re: #6 kenhe

What exactly is your proof that the vast majority of families are opposed to the center?

8 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:12:12am

re: #7 lawhawk

What exactly is your proof that the vast majority of families are opposed to the center?

Rush told him.

9 tnguitarist  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:12:42am

re: #6 kenhe

Here comes the ban-hammer.

10 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:12:47am

re: #6 kenhe

Where did you get the information that the vast majority of families are opposed? What’s your proof?

11 Gus  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:13:06am

re: #6 kenhe

Th vst mjrt f ths wh lst lvd ns n / r vhmntl ppsd t th cnstrctn f Mslm Cntr nywhr nr Grnd Zr. Ths s bcs th s t, crrctl, s w fr th Mslms t thr clbrt thr “vctr” vr th Grt Stn, th S, n /, r t tr t mnmz th fct tht th / mss mrdr ws crrd t b nd jyfll clbrtd b Mslms n mrc nd thrght th wrld.

Tht thr r fw dzn msgdd ndvdls wh lst rltvs n / wh spprt th bldng f Mslm Cntr s shmfl nd n nslt t th mmr f ths wh wr brtll mrdrd, nd ths ppl r scrnd b th vst mjrt wh pps th bldng.

Whatever you say.

12 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:13:13am

re: #8 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Rush told him.

No shit. Kenhe, you gotta a link?

13 tnguitarist  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:13:27am

re: #10 MrSilverDragon

Where did you get the information that the vast majority of families are opposed? What’s your proof?

He feels that way, so they must as well.

14 PT Barnum  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:13:42am

re: #6 kenhe

Give me a fuckin’ break! 1) Muslims died in 9/11 as well as non-Muslims. 2) If you’re that capable of reading minds then you should see if Kreskin’s gig is available. 3) If you’re not that capable, then the motives for those building the center exist only in your twisted hateful pitiful soul.

15 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:14:29am

re: #6 kenhe

You were blocked once before for this kind of bigotry and hate speech, and now you’re blocked again.

Unbelievable how they just keep trying to sneak back in.

16 PT Barnum  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:14:48am

Charles, I replied before the disemvoweler hit. feel free to make any changes needed.

17 ShaunP  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:15:17am

re: #6 kenhe

In case you never met one; hi. I lost friends in the towers on 9/11 and I’m fine with Park 51.

18 Nene1  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:15:21am

I would be in favour of allowing the Islamic Centre to be built, and then monitoring what is actually preached in it.

If it transpires that the preaching consists of gloating over the weakness and stupidity of the West in the face of an all-conquering Ummah, with portraits of ‘the 19’ in the lobby and calls for the destruction of Israel, then we’ll know it.

If the preaching consists of concilliatory moves toward Non-Muslims, with emphasis on only life-affirming doctrine and charitable attitudes toward the whole human family, then we’ll know this too.

For thus reason, can we be assured that the preaching will be in English ?
We’re not in a position to judge either way otherwise.

19 tnguitarist  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:15:38am

re: #15 Charles

You were blocked once before for this kind of bigotry and hate speech, and now you’re blocked again.

Unbelievable how they just keep trying to sneak back in.

It’s a mental disorder. Seriously.

20 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:15:52am

MyListTM just keeps getting longer.

21 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:16:41am

re: #16 PT Barnum

Charles, I replied before the disemvoweler hit. feel free to make any changes needed.

Hah, the disemvoweler! First time I’ve seen that, I like it! I was wondering what was going on there.

22 PT Barnum  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:17:10am

re: #15 Charles

You were blocked once before for this kind of bigotry and hate speech, and now you’re blocked again.

Unbelievable how they just keep trying to sneak back in.

re: #18 Nene1

I would be in favour of allowing the Islamic Centre to be built, and then monitoring what is actually preached in it.

If it transpires that the preaching consists of gloating over the weakness and stupidity of the West in the face of an all-conquering Ummah, with portraits of ‘the 19’ in the lobby and calls for the destruction of Israel, then we’ll know it.

If the preaching consists of concilliatory moves toward Non-Muslims, with emphasis on only life-affirming doctrine and charitable attitudes toward the whole human family, then we’ll know this too.

For thus reason, can we be assured that the preaching will be in English ?
We’re not in a position to judge either way otherwise.

That’s just nonsense. You don’t think there are bilingual Muslims?

23 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:17:17am

Charles, please sack #6. I am waiting for the “jump”.

24 tnguitarist  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:17:18am

re: #18 Nene1

I would be in favour of allowing the Islamic Centre to be built, and then monitoring what is actually preached in it.

That’s kinda scary. Big-brother stuff there.

25 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:17:31am

re: #21 MrSilverDragon

Hah, the disemvoweler! First time I’ve seen that, I like it! I was wondering what was going on there.

I still blame it on Cthulhu.

26 PT Barnum  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:18:43am

re: #25 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I still blame it on Cthulhu.

ftagn ftagn

Not that much different from

ftang ftang (Monty Python Reference)

27 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:18:45am

re: #25 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I still blame it on Cthulhu.

If anyone’s to blame, Sue’s to blame. (or Blaine)

28 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:19:01am

re: #24 tnguitarist

That’s kinda scary. Big-brother stuff there.

We also will need to monitor various churches as well then, based on the very real threats posed by Christian extremists.

29 Nene1  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:19:15am

Out of interest, Charles, why do the comments of banned posters seem to drop all the vowels ?
Is this the way the poster themselves post the comment, perhaps to avoid word-recognising software, or something like that ?

30 kirkspencer  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:19:45am

re: #6 kenhe

…[T]he 9/11 mass murder was carried out by and joyfully celebrated by Moslems in America…

Cite. Where were the celebrations by Moslems in America?

31 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:20:02am

re: #29 Nene1

Out of interest, Charles, why do the comments of banned posters seem to drop all the vowels ?
Is this the way the poster themselves post the comment, perhaps to avoid word-recognising software, or something like that ?

They hate Vanna White.
/

32 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:20:03am

re: #29 Nene1

Out of interest, Charles, why do the comments of banned posters seem to drop all the vowels ?
Is this the way the poster themselves post the comment, perhaps to avoid word-recognising software, or something like that ?

Elder Gods and Great Old Ones have an undying thirst for vowels.

33 PT Barnum  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:20:20am

re: #29 Nene1

Out of interest, Charles, why do the comments of banned posters seem to drop all the vowels ?
Is this the way the poster themselves post the comment, perhaps to avoid word-recognising software, or something like that ?


No it’s the disemvoweler, which strips all vowels out of htfll stpd psts.

34 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:20:24am

re: #30 kirkspencer

Cite. Where were the celebrations by Moslems in America?

He’s dead Jim.

35 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:23:03am

I always get this feeling that the people who complain about ‘the Muslims celebrating 9/11’ indulged in a fair bit of celebration themselves when the Alfred P. Murragh building went up.

36 PT Barnum  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:23:09am

re: #32 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Elder Gods and Great Old Ones have an undying thirst for vowels.

Only HP Lovecraft reference in Star Trek that I know of is in the episode “What are little girls made of”

37 PT Barnum  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:23:42am

re: #35 Romantic Heretic

I always get this feeling that the people who complain about ‘the Muslims celebrating 9/11’ indulged in a fair bit of celebration themselves when the Alfred P. Murragh building went up.

But their real Murkuns, so it doesn’t count
//

38 Gus  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:23:47am

re: #24 tnguitarist

That’s kinda scary. Big-brother stuff there.

Like North Korea, China, or the “former” Soviet Union. Seems a bit absurd to lobby for government monitoring. If these places of worship are open to the public then it would be open to being monitored by all of our citizens including law enforcement from time to time. As far as FISA type investigations nothing can be done to stop that anyway. That is, there are already mechanisms in place to monitor whoever and whomever.

39 RadicalModerate  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:23:49am

Glenn Beck is in some surrealistic territory today:

“I don’t understand the denial that many Jews are in today - if anyone should see trouble coming, it should be those that historically speaking trouble has come to first every single time”
The context? Apparently, Glenn has been reading up on the rise of the Third Reich, and according to him, “The patterns of the Weimar Republic are repeating themselves.”

Audio here:

This comes on the heels of Glenn having to apologize to Simon Greer of the Jewish Funds for Justice for telling him on his TV show last week that social justice “leads to death camps”.

Report: Fox executives believe Beck comments on Holocaust crossed the line

40 tnguitarist  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:24:45am

re: #31 Cannadian Club Akbar

They hate Vanna White.
/

They’re cheap. Vowels cost money.

41 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:25:56am

re: #40 tnguitarist

They’re cheap. Vowels cost money.

Tell me Vanna isn’t sill hot, though.

42 PT Barnum  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:26:02am

re: #39 RadicalModerate

Glenn Beck is in some surrealistic territory today:

“I don’t understand the denial that many Jews are in today - if anyone should see trouble coming, it should be those that historically speaking trouble has come to first every single time”
The context? Apparently, Glenn has been reading up on the rise of the Third Reich, and according to him, “The patterns of the Weimar Republic are repeating themselves.”

Audio here:
[Link: mediamatters.org…]

This comes on the heels of Glenn having to apologize to Simon Greer of the Jewish Funds for Justice for telling him on his TV show last week that social justice “leads to death camps”.

Report: Fox executives believe Beck comments on Holocaust crossed the line

Except what Becky doesn’t seem to see is that it’s his own rhetoric that most closely resembles the rhetoric of the people who overthrew the Weimar.

43 tradewind  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:26:08am

Meanwhile, group in Minneapolis purporting to be raising money ’ to help the poor and needy ’ busted as al-Shabbab terrorists.
[Link: liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com…]

44 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:26:30am

Lou Engle: Prop 8 decisions = religious repression

Proposition 8 advocates argue that same-sex marriage is not ideal for child rearing, but they say it also has serious implications on religious freedom.

“It’s a chilling moment,” said TheCall founder Lou Engle, who organized a prayer rally in support of Proposition 8 in September 2008. “Democracy is crumbling, and I believe, again, we’re going to see the persecution of the church. … Across the board, religious freedom now is being trumped by gender freedom.”

Garlow said in several areas where gay marriage has been legalized, Christians have lost personal and religious liberties. He points to Swedish pastor Ake Green, who was jailed after preaching that homosexuality is a sin, and to a Christian camp in Ocean Grove, N.J., that lost a discrimination lawsuit filed after it refused to allow a lesbian couple to hold a commitment ceremony at its facility.

“If we lose on this one, we lose the capacity to be able to proclaim the gospel as we know it,” Garlow said.

Yes, because telling other people how to live their lives and denying them the same rights and privileges you enjoy is obviously religious repression and persecution.

45 PT Barnum  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:26:49am

re: #41 Cannadian Club Akbar

Tell me Vanna isn’t sill hot, though.

She’s gotten a bit matronly, but I’d still turn her consonants, if you know what i mean.

46 tradewind  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:27:18am

re: #41 Cannadian Club Akbar
She could use a sandwich….

47 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:27:44am

re: #45 PT Barnum

She’s gotten a bit matronly, but I’d still turn her consonants, if you know what i mean.

Lemme see if I can figure this out.

48 PT Barnum  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:27:47am

re: #46 tradewind

She could use a sandwich…

Queen Latifa for the win!

49 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:28:05am

re: #45 PT Barnum

She’s gotten a bit matronly, but I’d still turn her consonants, if you know what i mean.

And yes, there will be an O.

50 PT Barnum  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:28:10am

re: #46 tradewind

She could use a sandwich…

I like em a bit more zaftig myself.

51 PT Barnum  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:28:45am

re: #49 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And yes, there will be an O.

She always looks so happy when someone buys that particular vowel. Must be her O face.

52 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:29:07am

Meanwhile, at Andrew Breitbart’s “Big Peace” website, anti-Muslim wacko Christine Brim has a completely deranged article accusing Elena Kagan of being “pro-sharia.”

[Link: bigpeace.com…]

Brim is the freak who viciously attacked me when I wouldn’t join forces with European fascist groups. Insane is too kind a description; this woman is a snake.

53 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:29:28am

I’ll take Vanna and Eva Longoria for the win, Jack.

54 PT Barnum  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:30:08am

re: #53 Cannadian Club Akbar

I’ll take Vanna and Eva Longoria for the win, Jack.

too scrawny…would be like humpin a broom..

55 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:30:17am

re: #53 Cannadian Club Akbar

I’ll take Vanna and Eva Longoria for the win, Jack.

Lucy Lawless and Summer Glau and I’ll be a happy man.

56 tnguitarist  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:32:35am

re: #55 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Lucy Lawless and Summer Glau and I’ll be a happy man.

I finally got around to watching Firefly. Don’t say anything. I still have 2 episodes and Serenity left to watch.

57 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:33:02am

re: #54 PT Barnum

too scrawny…would be like humpin a broom..

I’ll take Roseanne Barr and Rosie O’Donnel?
/I just threw up in my mouth.

58 tradewind  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:33:40am

re: #55 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Just when TSCC was hitting its stride, they deep-sixed it. Glau’s best role.

59 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:33:51am

re: #57 Cannadian Club Akbar

I’ll take Roseanne Barr and Rosie O’Donnel?
/I just threw up in my mouth.

Out.

/points to the door

60 RadicalModerate  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:34:23am

re: #42 PT Barnum

Except what Becky doesn’t seem to see is that it’s his own rhetoric that most closely resembles the rhetoric of the people who overthrew the Weimar.

Funny thing there. The American right wing is using VERY similar rhetoric when talking about Muslim people as was seen in early 1930s Germany in anti-Jewish propaganda. Plus, it’s the Birchers and Paulians (you know Glenn, those guys who you’re suddenly enamored with?) who are making rumblings about those “international bankers”…

61 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:34:54am

re: #58 tradewind

Just when TSCC was hitting its stride, they deep-sixed it. Glau’s best role.

What do you expect? Its Fox. They probably had to make room on the schedule for some reality show that bombed in its third week.

62 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:35:35am

re: #56 tnguitarist

I finally got around to watching Firefly. Don’t say anything. I still have 2 episodes and Serenity left to watch.

Serenity was a great Scifi movie.

63 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:35:57am

re: #59 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Out.

/points to the door

Actually, if I could have a samich, it would be Sela Ward and Jennifer Anniston.

64 Gus  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:36:02am

re: #52 Charles

Meanwhile, at Andrew Breitbart’s “Big Peace” website, anti-Muslim wacko Christine Brim has a completely deranged article accusing Elena Kagan of being “pro-sharia.”

[Link: bigpeace.com…]

Brim is the freak who viciously attacked me when I wouldn’t join forces with European fascist groups. Insane is too kind a description; this woman is a snake.

Another conspiracy by Googling. It’s almost as bad as Pam Geller’s conspiracies.

Well, today is the day that Kagan will likely be confirmed. Expect another round of mass hysteria.

When you combine the Park51 Landmarks vote, the overturning of Prop. 8, and the soon to be confirmation of Kagan overall it’s been a very bad week for wingnuts.

65 tradewind  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:36:15am

re: #61 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Fox isn’t the king of the reality crap….that title belongs to the alphabets.
Damn that writers’ strike anyway. Hope they got what they were after, ’ cause it sure screwed the programming.

66 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:37:24am

re: #57 Cannadian Club Akbar

I’ll take Roseanne Barr and Rosie O’Donnel?
/I just threw up in my mouth.

Kate Bush and Sarah Mclachlan for me, please. Angels sing like them.

67 ShaunP  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:38:08am

re: #65 tradewind

Fox isn’t the king of the reality crap…that title belongs to the alphabets.
Damn that writers’ strike anyway. Hope they got what they were after, ’ cause it sure screwed the programming.

Fox network is the king of juggling good shows around until they are no longer popular, then canceling them…

68 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:38:10am

re: #66 Romantic Heretic

Kate Bush and Sarah Mclachlan for me, please. Angels sing like them.

I’ll hold the camera.
/

69 Achilles Tang  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:39:02am

re: #43 tradewind

Meanwhile, group in Minneapolis purporting to be raising money ’ to help the poor and needy ’ busted as al-Shabbab terrorists.
[Link: liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com…]

re: #43 tradewind

Meanwhile, group in Minneapolis purporting to be raising money ’ to help the poor and needy ’ busted as al-Shabbab terrorists.
[Link: liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com…]

Good thing they weren’t also soliciting for Park 51. That would have been embarrassing.

70 tradewind  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:39:28am

re: #67 ShaunP
NBC. They took Charlie Crews away, and I’ll never forgive ‘em.

71 ShaunP  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:40:08am

re: #70 tradewind

NBC. They took Charlie Crews away, and I’ll never forgive ‘em.

Fox did it for me with Arrested Development and Family Guy (the first time around)…

72 tradewind  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:41:02am

re: #69 Naso Tang
This was MSP. NYC probably has its own fundraising apparatus.

73 tradewind  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:41:43am

re: #71 ShaunP
I thought those two were still around.
Not that I ever saw either one.

74 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:43:25am

re: #73 tradewind

I thought those two were still around.
Not that I ever saw either one.

I watch The Good Guys, Fringe and Lie to Me. Yet I am never home to see them. I love NatGeo.

75 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:44:23am

re: #73 tradewind

I thought those two were still around.
Not that I ever saw either one.

AD is dead, but they are working on a movie. Family guy came back after a few years but not as good.

76 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:44:32am

re: #57 Cannadian Club Akbar

I’ll take Roseanne Barr and Rosie O’Donnel?
/I just threw up in my mouth.

Wow, I wasn’t able to restrain it to my mouth. XP

And, on that note, y’all have a good evening, apparently I’m off to Crystal City to test fiber. How exciting!

77 RadicalModerate  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:44:49am

re: #65 tradewind

Fox isn’t the king of the reality crap…that title belongs to the alphabets.
Damn that writers’ strike anyway. Hope they got what they were after, ’ cause it sure screwed the programming.

I dunno about that - FOX was the network that gave us “Trading Spouses”, which will be forever famous for “DARK-SIDED!!”

78 Lidane  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:44:49am

re: #18 Nene1

I would be in favour of allowing the Islamic Centre to be built, and then monitoring what is actually preached in it.

There are so many things wrong with that statement I don’t know where to begin.

What a pathetic idea. Seriously.

79 ShaunP  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:45:26am

re: #75 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

AD is dead, but they are working on a movie.

Whaaaaa? Google, here I come!

80 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:46:58am

I watch..oh wait, I dont. Nevermind.

81 kirkspencer  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:47:46am

re: #71 ShaunP

Fox did it for me with Arrested Development and Family Guy (the first time around)…

I considered myself warned when reviewing how they juggled the Simpsons and Married with Children for the first couple of seasons.

82 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:48:28am

re: #68 Cannadian Club Akbar

I’ll hold the camera.
/

Sorry. I only write porn. I don’t star in it.

83 tradewind  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:49:09am

re: #74 Cannadian Club Akbar
I like those too. Although it took me a while to adjust from Josh/West Wing to the present-day Bradley Whitford.
I don’t think I’ve watched a live broadcast other than news in a year or so. Don’t see how the commercial people even justify their existence.

84 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:49:20am

re: #82 Romantic Heretic

Sorry. I only write porn. I don’t star in it.

Love your music.
/

85 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:49:42am

re: #82 Romantic Heretic

Sorry. I only write porn. I don’t star in it.

“Did someone report a fire?”
“Yeah, its in my pants.”
“Lucky for you I brought the hose.”
/bowchikabowwow

86 tradewind  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:50:02am

re: #77 RadicalModerate
Proud to say I never saw it, not breakin’ that record.
:)

87 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:51:05am

I can’t remember the last time I watched any form of broadcast television. I don’t miss it at all.

88 RogueOne  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:51:11am

re: #18 Nene1

I would be in favour of allowing the Islamic Centre to be built, and then monitoring what is actually preached in it.

If it transpires that the preaching consists of gloating over the weakness and stupidity of the West in the face of an all-conquering Ummah, with portraits of ‘the 19’ in the lobby and calls for the destruction of Israel, then we’ll know it.

If the preaching consists of concilliatory moves toward Non-Muslims, with emphasis on only life-affirming doctrine and charitable attitudes toward the whole human family, then we’ll know this too.

For thus reason, can we be assured that the preaching will be in English ?
We’re not in a position to judge either way otherwise.

I would have argued just the opposite. Until the final approval has been given the people of the neighborhood have every right to oppose it for whatever reasons they choose. Once it has been built, churches have the right to say whatever it is they please including we’ll all burn in hell for not being sufficiently god-like.

89 tradewind  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:51:32am

re: #78 Lidane
It’s being done anyway, whether or not the NSA admits it.

90 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:53:38am

re: #89 tradewind

It’s being done anyway, whether or not the NSA admits it.

Which is why I practice this old piece of Klingon wisdom: If you do not want something heard, do not say it.

91 Lidane  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:53:39am

re: #74 Cannadian Club Akbar

I watch The Good Guys, Fringe and Lie to Me. Yet I am never home to see them. I love NatGeo.

Every time I watch The Good Guys, I keep referring to Bradley Whitford’s character as Stroker, because he reminds me of the character from the Adult Swim show Stroker and Hoop. Heh.

I like The Good Guys. It’s entertaining. And Lie to Me is good, too.

92 b_sharp  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:54:27am

re: #55 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Lucy Lawless and Summer Glau and I’ll be a happy man.

At the same time. Rawr!

Did you see Vanna’s pic in Playboy back in the day?

93 b_sharp  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:55:10am

re: #57 Cannadian Club Akbar

I’ll take Roseanne Barr and Rosie O’Donnel?
/I just threw up in my mouth.

Keep that up and I’ll downding your silly ass.

94 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:55:13am

I love the fact that my liberal boss pays me half in cash because of taxes. Heh.( I love my boss)

95 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:55:18am

re: #92 b_sharp

At the same time. Rawr!

Did you see Vanna’s pic in Playboy back in the day?

I’m a man with access to the internet. Of course I have.

96 Lidane  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:55:54am

re: #89 tradewind

It’s being done anyway, whether or not the NSA admits it.

Not the point. It’s a statement made from bigotry. I wonder if they’d also support the same kind of monitoring for every new Christian church that’s built.

97 b_sharp  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:57:21am

re: #63 Cannadian Club Akbar

Actually, if I could have a samich, it would be Sela Ward and Jennifer Anniston.

Jennifer Anniston?

(scratches head)

Jennifer Anniston?

Really?

(scratches balls and heads for the door mumbling)

98 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:58:57am

re: #97 b_sharp

I like her nipples. (this will soon be deleted)

99 tradewind  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:00:23am

re: #93 b_sharp
ZOMG!! !! I bet that’ll put a stop to it!!

100 b_sharp  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:00:45am

re: #88 RogueOne

I would have argued just the opposite. Until the final approval has been given the people of the neighborhood have every right to oppose it for whatever reasons they choose. Once it has been built, churches have the right to say whatever it is they please including we’ll all burn in hell for not being sufficiently god-like.

Are you stuck in a time loop?

101 tradewind  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:02:28am

re: #96 Lidane
Not every one… just the groups that have engaged in violence. And there have been some.
The feds have every right to send people into any institution where they believe anti-government activity may be discussed or planned.
It’s not as if there’s no precedent.

102 tradewind  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:03:36am

re: #98 Cannadian Club Akbar
/not soon enough/

103 tradewind  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:04:49am

Bet there’s a new thread in 5..4..3..

104 RogueOne  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:05:55am

re: #100 b_sharp

Are you stuck in a time loop?

Nope. I remain perfectly consistent. It’s the rest of you that want to enforce proper behavior on the proletariat while I’m content to let people be people.

Up with people and all that.

105 Four More Tears  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:06:17am

re: #103 tradewind

Bet there’s a new thread in 5..4..3..

Amazing how you predicted that two minutes after a new one went up…

106 DaddyG  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:10:02am

I wasted time this morning trying to explain the whole reason for the first amendment to the constitution and how it applies to homosexuals as well as protects religious expression as well.

When the Dr. Venkman arguments* started to fly I lost hope of intelligent discussion.

*Cats living with dogs… Mass Hysteria!

107 Lidane  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:10:54am

re: #101 tradewind

Not every one… just the groups that have engaged in violence. And there have been some.

But there is no credible evidence that suggests anything remiss with Park51. And you can’t lump all Muslims with the crazy nutjobs that flew planes into the WTC, just as you can’t lump all Christians with the crazy nutjobs who shoot abortion providers and bomb clinics. That’s the problem.

A lot of folks have decided to conflate all Muslims with Al Qaeda, and to turn every Muslim into a sharia-obsessed bogeyman that’s going to blow up buildings. Saying that it’s okay to build the community center as long as every word that’s preached is monitored is giving in to that kind of baseless fear of all Muslims.

108 tradewind  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:11:14am

re: #105 JasonA
It was pretty clear about fifteen posts back, but since I was still on this one, whatev.
We kinda went rogue with the tv thing, our fault.
Probably there’ll be more Kagan vs Sharia law-thing news/scuttlebutt after she’s confirmed, and it will get another shot.

109 tradewind  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:12:12am

re: #107 Lidane
Excuse me, but you mentioned Christian groups. That’s what I was discussing re planning violence.
Reading is comprehension./

110 b_sharp  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:12:25am

re: #106 DaddyG

I wasted time this morning trying to explain the whole reason for the first amendment to the constitution and how it applies to homosexuals as well as protects religious expression as well.

When the Dr. Venkman arguments* started to fly I lost hope of intelligent discussion.

*Cats living with dogs… Mass Hysteria!

I just love a slippery slope argument. It means your opponent has run out of ideas.

111 Lidane  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:17:04am

re: #109 tradewind

So is writing coherently. If you were specifically talking about Christian groups, you should have made that clear.

112 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:20:17am

re: #110 b_sharp

I just love a slippery slope argument. It means your opponent has run out of ideas.

When you go down the slippery slope you should be careful not to run into the thin edge of the wedge.

113 friarstale  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:27:11am

this was always a phony issue
what is it, 3 blocks away?
well, whatever the “unacceptable” distance, what would be an acceptable distance?
another block?
two more blocks?
a mile?

114 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:28:03am

re: #18 Nene1

For thus reason, can we be assured that the preaching will be in English ?
We’re not in a position to judge either way otherwise.

Go to hell.

115 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:29:24am

re: #39 RadicalModerate

Glenn Beck is in some surrealistic territory today:

“I don’t understand the denial that many Jews are in today - if anyone should see trouble coming, it should be those that historically speaking trouble has come to first every single time”
The context? Apparently, Glenn has been reading up on the rise of the Third Reich, and according to him, “The patterns of the Weimar Republic are repeating themselves.”

Audio here:
[Link: mediamatters.org…]

This comes on the heels of Glenn having to apologize to Simon Greer of the Jewish Funds for Justice for telling him on his TV show last week that social justice “leads to death camps”.

Report: Fox executives believe Beck comments on Holocaust crossed the line

Yes, actually, Glenn, I am seeing some warning signs. Unfortunately, Glenn, you are one of them.

116 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:30:38am

re: #60 RadicalModerate

Funny thing there. The American right wing is using VERY similar rhetoric when talking about Muslim people as was seen in early 1930s Germany in anti-Jewish propaganda. Plus, it’s the Birchers and Paulians (you know Glenn, those guys who you’re suddenly enamored with?) who are making rumblings about those “international bankers”…

Why make up all new shit, when the old shit works?

117 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:30:57am

re: #63 Cannadian Club Akbar

Actually, if I could have a samich, it would be Sela Ward and Jennifer Anniston.

OK, Sela Ward I gotta give you.

Jennifer Anniston?

118 Lidane  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:31:30am

re: #113 friarstale

well, whatever the “unacceptable” distance, what would be an acceptable distance?

Mars. Maybe. As long as wherever it’s built doesn’t sometimes face the WTC during the planet’s rotation.

119 b_sharp  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:32:17am

re: #114 SanFranciscoZionist

Go to hell.

I’m an atheist so I don’t accept the religious idea of Hell. Sending someone there is a pretty feeble curse, so … is there anyplace on this Earth that would be a more, um, ‘convincing’ alternative?

120 Four More Tears  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:32:31am

re: #118 Lidane

Mars. Maybe. As long as wherever it’s built doesn’t sometimes face the WTC during the planet’s rotation.

If this ground is so sacred why are we (slowly) building a gaudy skyscraper on top of it???

121 captdiggs  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:32:48am

For informational purposes only


Thursday, August 5, 2010
By a margin of 61 to 26 percent, New Yorkers oppose the proposal to build the Cordoba
House, a multi-story Muslim Cultural Center in lower Manhattan two blocks from the site of the World Trade
Center according to a new survey released today from the Siena College Research Institute (SRI).
[Link: www.siena.edu…]

122 Four More Tears  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:33:13am

re: #119 b_sharp

I’m an atheist so I don’t accept the religious idea of Hell. Sending someone there is a pretty feeble curse, so … is there anyplace on this Earth that would be a more, um, ‘convincing’ alternative?

“Send him to… Detroit!”

Major updingage to whomever gets that reference.

123 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:33:26am

re: #119 b_sharp

I’m an atheist so I don’t accept the religious idea of Hell. Sending someone there is a pretty feeble curse, so … is there anyplace on this Earth that would be a more, um, ‘convincing’ alternative?

How about “May you spend all your summers in northern Louisiana in an RV with broken air conditioning”?

124 b_sharp  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:34:29am

re: #123 SanFranciscoZionist

How about “May you spend all your summers in northern Louisiana in an RV with broken air conditioning”?

Throw an alligator or two in there and I think you’ve got it.

125 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:34:55am

re: #120 JasonA

If this ground is so sacred why are we (slowly) building a gaudy skyscraper on top of it???

Because:

1. It shows that we will go on with our lives and not be cowed.

2. Land in Manhattan is really, really valuable.

You can pick whichever reason seems best to you. Both, of course, go a long way to argue for the Park51 project as well.

126 Four More Tears  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:38:15am

re: #121 captdiggs

For informational purposes only

Thursday, August 5, 2010
By a margin of 61 to 26 percent, New Yorkers oppose the proposal to build the Cordoba
House, a multi-story Muslim Cultural Center in lower Manhattan two blocks from the site of the World Trade
Center according to a new survey released today from the Siena College Research Institute (SRI).
[Link: www.siena.edu…]

It should be made clear that the poll was of residents of New York State, not just the city.

127 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:39:39am

re: #126 JasonA

Here are the crosstabs for that poll (see the last page). The opposition in NYC is less than statewide, but still significant. No doubt that many have been swayed by bogus stories about its proximity to Ground Zero (many claiming it is in or part of Ground Zero, its size, etc.)

128 cjrael  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:56:00am

Can anybody here seriously say that they would have been all for this “Islamic Cultural Center” in the days, weeks, months and even several years after 9-11? If so, fine. If not (but you’re all for it now), tell me what has happened in the last 9 years to change your mind. Also, would you have a problem if this was proposed being built right smack where the Twin Towers used to stand? If not, why not?

129 Coracle  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 12:01:25pm

re: #128 cjrael

Can anybody here seriously say that they would have been all for this “Islamic Cultural Center” in the days, weeks, months and even several years after 9-11? If so, fine. If not (but you’re all for it now), tell me what has happened in the last 9 years to change your mind. Also, would you have a problem if this was proposed being built right smack where the Twin Towers used to stand? If not, why not?

If my grandmother had wheels, she’d be a bus.

130 Lidane  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 12:05:04pm

re: #128 cjrael

35 comments in 4 years? Go back to sleep, Rip Van Winkle.

131 DaddyG  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 12:10:23pm

re: #128 cjrael

Can anybody here seriously say that they would have been all for this “Islamic Cultural Center” in the days, weeks, months and even several years after 9-11? If so, fine. If not (but you’re all for it now), tell me what has happened in the last 9 years to change your mind. Also, would you have a problem if this was proposed being built right smack where the Twin Towers used to stand? If not, why not?

Yes.
Religious freedom is a good American freedom.

No.
The area where the twin towers stand is a good place to leave a non-partisan and non-denominational monument.

Simple enough?

132 cjrael  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 12:16:18pm

and you’d be under it…nextre: #129 Coracle

133 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 12:16:56pm

re: #128 cjrael

Can anybody here seriously say that they would have been all for this “Islamic Cultural Center” in the days, weeks, months and even several years after 9-11? If so, fine. If not (but you’re all for it now), tell me what has happened in the last 9 years to change your mind. Also, would you have a problem if this was proposed being built right smack where the Twin Towers used to stand? If not, why not?

In the immediate aftermath, I don’t even know if it would have registered, everyone was so freaked out.

From about six months out, my attitude would be the same as it is now.

As for the actual site, I’m not happy that we’re building on it again at all. I would like to leave the footprint open. If the buildings being put up there were to include a mosque, I would not have a problem with that.

134 cjrael  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 12:18:34pm

re: #130 Lidane
35? this was my 1st as far as i know but that’s irrelevant

your nasty response is as well…

135 cjrael  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 12:22:08pm

re: #131 DaddyG
i didn’t ask for simplicity but i didn’t expect much else

136 cjrael  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 12:28:54pm

re: #133 SanFranciscoZionist
i guess you’re not freaked out anymore, huh? well, MOST of us still are and ALWAYS will be, which is why we have a visceral feeling that this mosque is an abomination.

137 Coracle  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 12:30:55pm

re: #132 cjrael

Too clever by half, cjrael. In this country, freedom of religion was as guaranteed on 9/12/01 as it is today.

138 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 12:33:19pm

And yet another anti-Muslim sleeper awakes.

139 teleskiguy  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 12:37:38pm

cjrael, don’t bring your bigotry here. You’re better off posting comments at hotair you asshat!

140 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 12:41:41pm

re: #136 cjrael

Being ‘freaked out’ is not actually grounds for anything, dude.

Except that you need to work on not being freaked out.

141 CuriousLurker  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 12:41:53pm

re: #138 Charles

Nasty little balls of rage, the lot of them.

142 jamesfirecat  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 12:42:32pm

re: #18 Nene1

I would be in favour of allowing the Islamic Centre to be built, and then monitoring what is actually preached in it.

If it transpires that the preaching consists of gloating over the weakness and stupidity of the West in the face of an all-conquering Ummah, with portraits of ‘the 19’ in the lobby and calls for the destruction of Israel, then we’ll know it.

If the preaching consists of concilliatory moves toward Non-Muslims, with emphasis on only life-affirming doctrine and charitable attitudes toward the whole human family, then we’ll know this too.

For thus reason, can we be assured that the preaching will be in English ?
We’re not in a position to judge either way otherwise.

Damn, if only we hadn’t fired all those gay Arabic translators we wouldn’t have to insist on this utterly ridiculous measure so that we could spy on them easier!

143 Nene1  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 12:44:22pm

re: #138 Charles
Charles, glad you’re still in the vicinity to take queries …

Did you see my earlier question about vowels being dropped in the comments of banned posters ?
Why does this happen ? Is it done by yourself in order to intentionally make the controversial comment diffucult to read but still decipherable to those who really wanted to find out what it said ? IE like a ‘part-deletion’ ?

144 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 6:20:27pm

re: #143 Nene1

Charles, glad you’re still in the vicinity to take queries …

Did you see my earlier question about vowels being dropped in the comments of banned posters ?
Why does this happen ? Is it done by yourself in order to intentionally make the controversial comment diffucult to read but still decipherable to those who really wanted to find out what it said ? IE like a ‘part-deletion’ ?

It’s a way of mocking the troll; It leaves a comment to reply to, while rendering the hater largely unreadable.

145 cjrael  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:05:38pm

re: #138 Charles
i was fine with muslims until i started reading LGF after 9-11 —

you made me what i am today!

146 krypto  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:22:30pm

The article quoted two people who suffered a WTC loss quoted to be expressing support for the Muslim Community Center Project, out of a total of about seven. The others merely expressed opinions against racism or bigotry (which is not the same as being in favor of the Center being built at that specific site) or else expressed misgivings about that choice of site, or both.

Meanwhile, there were nearly three thousand people killed in the WTC attack, probably each of them with a family that suffered from that loss. Among that many people you could find at least two person with almost any opinion you look for.

Sorry, but the statistics based on the information in that article just don’t support the conclusion that families of the victims significantly support the building of the center, or really much of any conclusion at all.

147 ClaudeMonet  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 12:14:06am

re: #119 b_sharp

I’m an atheist so I don’t accept the religious idea of Hell. Sending someone there is a pretty feeble curse, so … is there anyplace on this Earth that would be a more, um, ‘convincing’ alternative?

East St. Louis.

Camden.

Eastern New Mexico.

Pat Robertson’s house.

Glenn Beck’s mind.

148 ClaudeMonet  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 12:16:38am

re: #122 JasonA

“Send him to… Detroit!”

Major updingage to whomever gets that reference.

It’s from a Monty Python sketch IIRC

149 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 10:17:13am

re: #145 cjrael

Oh, just piss off, you moron. Your bigotry is entirely your own.

150 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 11:23:07am

re: #129 Coracle

If my grandmother had wheels, she’d be a bus.

Coracle! You’re back! I have missed you!

151 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 11:23:55am

re: #136 cjrael

i guess you’re not freaked out anymore, huh? well, MOST of us still are and ALWAYS will be, which is why we have a visceral feeling that this mosque is an abomination.

I was dealing with terror attacks and their aftermaths coming too close to those I loved long before 9/11. I will always grieve and be angry about 9/11, but no, ‘freaked out’ is an emotional state you emerge from if you’re emotionally healthy. Ask any Israeli.

And we do not decide the law in this country on visceral feelings about abomination, so neither your visceral feelings or mine are particularly important.

152 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 11:24:53am

re: #142 jamesfirecat

Damn, if only we hadn’t fired all those gay Arabic translators we wouldn’t have to insist on this utterly ridiculous measure so that we could spy on them easier!

James, don’t talk nonsense. They were gay. We had to replace them with red-blooded straight Americans. The fact that the red-blooded straight Americans spoke only English was not relevent.

153 jamesfirecat  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:48:40pm

re: #145 cjrael

i was fine with muslims until i started reading LGF after 9-11 —

you made me what i am today!

Who taught you how to do this stuff?

YOU ALL RIGHT? I LEARNED IT BY WATCHING YOU!

Charles may provide information, but at the end of the day its up to each of us to decide what decisions we make based on that information.


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