Extremist positions on abortion are now completely mainstream in the Republican Party, as Rachel Maddow points out in this clip. It’s absolutely appalling to see the entire GOP uniting behind candidates who oppose abortion in cases of rape or incest — and even in cases where the life of the mother is in danger. Ugly misogyny, in your face, and approved by the GOP.
1 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 8:46:50pm |
Okay everybody, step right up, abortion is one of those few things that I feel my knowledge of measures up to my desire to argue with.
So not to be argumentative, but this is horrific, especially because I feel confident I can argue that even if we accept a fetus is a person with all the same rights as a living person, that still doesn't make abortion murder or wrong!
| 2 |
Obdicut Thu, Aug 5, 2010 8:49:08pm |
What the fuck.
You can't run a society like that. It turns into a competition for who can be more extremist.
Like Saudi Arabia.
Moving backwards on this is insane.
| 3 |
brookly red Thu, Aug 5, 2010 8:53:11pm |
re: #1 jamesfirecat
Okay everybody, step right up, abortion is one of those few things that I feel my knowledge of measures up to my desire to argue with.
So not to be argumentative, but this is horrific, especially because I feel confident I can argue that even if we accept a fetus is a person with all the same rights as a living person, that still doesn't make abortion murder or wrong!
OK James, I say political posturing... take gun control for example one side says no guns at all the other machine guns for all, they meet in the middle... posturing just posturing. Neither side really expects to get a complete victory.
| 4 |
theliel Thu, Aug 5, 2010 8:55:41pm |
re: #3 brookly red
re: #3 brookly red
OK James, I say political posturing... take gun control for example one side says no guns at all the other machine guns for all, they meet in the middle... posturing just posturing. Neither side really expects to get a complete victory.
Except that's not what the GOP and their Theocratic buddies are gunning for. They're using the Overton window to ensure that everyone else who isn't mega rich Obeys.
Because modern conservatism is about abusive power and control, not about achieving real ends.
| 5 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 8:56:17pm |
re: #3 brookly red
OK James, I say political posturing... take gun control for example one side says no guns at all the other machine guns for all, they meet in the middle... posturing just posturing. Neither side really expects to get a complete victory.
I'm just saying if anyone wants to have a debate on if abortion is moral or not, I think I can advance a strong argument for why it is, even if we afford a fetus the same rights we would a fully grown human being.
Also Gun Control is one of those issues where I typically consider myself just smart enough to know that I 'm not smart enough to make any major arguments so I'm going to stay mum on that front...
| 6 |
Targetpractice Thu, Aug 5, 2010 8:56:22pm |
I'm wondering how long before they drop even the exception for the mother's life, arguing that it's "God's plan" for her to die so that that child might live.
| 7 |
Obdicut Thu, Aug 5, 2010 8:57:32pm |
re: #3 brookly red
Comparing gun control to abortion rights is insane.
There has never, ever, ever, ever, been a state in the US where you couldn't pick up some sort of gun in at most a week. Only those who were insane or felons could not achieve this. A very few cities have made this more difficult-- cities, not states.
However, there have been entire criminalizations of abortion in entire states, harassment campaigns against abortion doctors-- not to mention murders of abortion doctors.
You don't get screaming insane people outside gun stores-- how could you? There are so fucking many of them.
Complete victory. Fuck.
Oklahoma Abortion Law: No Exceptions, Even Rape
But under a new law in Oklahoma, women like Casteix, who have been sexually assaulted, will be forced to undergo a second trauma. The law requires them to undergo a sonogram, and depending on the state of pregnancy, it could be a transvaginal one, which involves insertion of a wand.
The doctor must then turn the screen towards her and describe fetal dimensions and details like the number of fingers and toes and heart activity.
There are no exemptions for victims of rape and incest.
"The law takes no account of the trauma of the victim," said Casteix. "I just can't imagine what that would have done to me. It upsets me just thinking about being in that position. If you are the victim of a violent crime, it's absolutely devastating."
That's far more of a 'victory' than they should ever fucking get. Shameful. Foul. Re-raping rape victims.
| 8 |
brookly red Thu, Aug 5, 2010 8:59:56pm |
re: #5 jamesfirecat
I'm just saying if anyone wants to have a debate on if abortion is moral or not, I think I can advance a strong argument for why it is, even if we afford a fetus the same rights we would a fully grown human being.
Also Gun Control is one of those issues where I typically consider myself just smart enough to know that I 'm not smart enough to make any major arguments so I'm going to stay mum on that front...
the point is the same, it is negotiation same as it ever was both sides set extreme goals & then negotiate a compromise, that is how politics works.
| 9 |
Obdicut Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:00:29pm |
re: #8 brookly red
the point is the same, it is negotiation same as it ever was both sides set extreme goals & then negotiate a compromise, that is how politics works.
Jesus christ dude.
See above for 'compromise'.
It's insane.
| 10 |
Dancing along the light of day Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:01:52pm |
re: #7 Obdicut
Quoting for emphasis.
"That's far more of a 'victory' than they should ever fucking get. Shameful. Foul. Re-raping rape victims."
Shameful and foul are POLITE ways of putting this criticism. IMHO.
| 11 |
Targetpractice Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:03:59pm |
How the frak do you "compromise" on allowing a woman to do what she wants with her own body? This "exception" bullshit is not "compromise," it's CYA. It's a politician saying "I'm pro-life...to a point," trying to play both sides for saps.
| 12 |
brookly red Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:04:15pm |
re: #9 Obdicut
Jesus christ dude.
See above for 'compromise'.
It's insane.
no it is not... did you ever negotiate a salary, or buy a used car? same difference you bid real low/high depending on your take & them compromise... it is the way the world works.
| 13 |
boxhead Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:04:30pm |
This is a shameful attempt to marginalize women in our Country. I will not have it!
| 14 |
Obdicut Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:05:45pm |
re: #12 brookly red
Forcing a woman to have a wand shoved into her vagina after she was raped bears no resemblance to buying a used car, no.
| 15 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:07:03pm |
re: #8 brookly red
the point is the same, it is negotiation same as it ever was both sides set extreme goals & then negotiate a compromise, that is how politics works.
People shouldn't have to negotiate when one side is DEMONSTRABLY wrong.
| 16 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:07:23pm |
re: #12 brookly red
no it is not... did you ever negotiate a salary, or buy a used car? same difference you bid real low/high depending on your take & them compromise... it is the way the world works.
Compromising with Sharron Angle is like compromising with a crazy person
If one side wants to instill forcible rape of a woman into law, and the other side doesn't, is the compromise half-rape?
| 17 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:07:43pm |
re: #6 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
I'm wondering how long before they drop even the exception for the mother's life, arguing that it's "God's plan" for her to die so that that child might live.
About fifteen years ago, there was a case. I can't remember the name. The woman had had artificial insemination done, and then refused to let them do the selective abortion that's common when several embryos implant. She insisted on giving birth to some number of multiples that seemed extreme at the time, before Octomom, despite doctor's warnings that her life was at risk. She said it was "God's will".
Dan Savage commented that actually, it had been God's will that she be infertile, but apparently you don't have to accept that part.
| 18 |
brookly red Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:08:34pm |
re: #14 Obdicut
Forcing a woman to have a wand shoved into her vagina after she was raped bears no resemblance to buying a used car, no.
of course not & it was never an option, it is a position to be negotiated down from. But whatever, be outraged.
| 19 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:08:38pm |
| 20 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:08:59pm |
re: #15 jamesfirecat
People shouldn't have to negotiate when one side is DEMONSTRABLY wrong.
The notion is like compromising with aterrorist
'Okay, we'll just let you blow up a small building!"
The notion is ridiculous and very very trolley, it is what it is, etc etc
| 21 |
boxhead Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:09:10pm |
re: #8 brookly red
the point is the same, it is negotiation same as it ever was both sides set extreme goals & then negotiate a compromise, that is how politics works.
Why? It should not be so. Rational people do not need irrational positions to start a negotiation. If they do so then they are not negotiating in good faith.
| 22 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:09:16pm |
re: #18 brookly red
of course not & it was never an option, it is a position to be negotiated down from. But whatever, be outraged.
They're only women! Who cares?
| 23 |
Obdicut Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:09:38pm |
re: #18 brookly red
of course not & it was never an option, it is a position to be negotiated down from. But whatever, be outraged.
It is not only a fucking option, it is the goddamn law! Do you understand that law was actually passed?
| 24 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:10:28pm |
re: #18 brookly red
of course not & it was never an option, it is a position to be negotiated down from. But whatever, be outraged.
When its turned into a law, it's not a position to be negotiated down from, its a vile cruel law that needs to be repealed post haste, it's not on the table, its on the books!
(That analogy only a bit more twisted than the way these people think...)
| 25 |
Targetpractice Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:10:33pm |
re: #17 SanFranciscoZionist
About fifteen years ago, there was a case. I can't remember the name. The woman had had artificial insemination done, and then refused to let them do the selective abortion that's common when several embryos implant. She insisted on giving birth to some number of multiples that seemed extreme at the time, before Octomom, despite doctor's warnings that her life was at risk. She said it was "God's will".
Dan Savage commented that actually, it had been God's will that she be infertile, but apparently you don't have to accept that part.
Oh, don't worry, they'll get around to that before too long. We've got 20th century men with 21st century technology and a 14th century mindset.
"God's will," my ass.
| 26 |
Dancing along the light of day Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:11:02pm |
This will not look pretty in the morning light.
Good night, Lizardia!
| 28 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:11:30pm |
re: #18 brookly red
of course not & it was never an option, it is a position to be negotiated down from. But whatever, be outraged.
you do realize he's talking about Oklahoma, which a few other states are thinking of copying, right?
| 29 |
brookly red Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:12:55pm |
you all need to get a grip, this is not a real policy issue it is a point to be conceded later in exchange for something else...
why do I bother.
| 30 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:13:00pm |
| 31 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:13:20pm |
re: #29 brookly red
you all need to get a grip, this is not a real policy issue it is a point to be conceded later in exchange for something else...
why do I bother.
You dipshit, it's law
it's the law
it is
law
| 32 |
boxhead Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:13:34pm |
re: #23 Obdicut
It is not only a fucking option, it is the goddamn law! Do you understand that law was actually passed?
Louisianna passed such a law... what an outrage...
| 33 |
CarleeCork Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:14:21pm |
"If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament." Erica Jong
| 34 |
Ojoe Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:14:28pm |
The sun is apparently still up in L.A.
Actually the Towercam is in the fritz.
| 35 |
boxhead Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:14:52pm |
re: #33 CarleeCork
"If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament." Erica Jong
sad... but true!
| 36 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:15:11pm |
re: #34 Ojoe
The sun is apparently still up in L.A.
Actually the Towercam is in the fritz.
That's MUCH less interesting than the sun holding still over LA.
| 37 |
Varek Raith Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:15:12pm |
And I though the GOP was already falling off a cliff.
Now they've gone and strapped boulder to their legs.
Bravo, GOP, bravo.
| 38 |
Ojoe Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:15:43pm |
re: #1 jamesfirecat
even if we accept a fetus is a person with all the same rights as a living person, that still doesn't make abortion murder or wrong!
That seems to be a contradiction.
| 39 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:16:13pm |
re: #18 brookly red
of course not & it was never an option, it is a position to be negotiated down from. But whatever, be outraged.
That's a weak opening position, one should open with something like The Handmaid's Tale. Be out and open with the desire to invade, violate and degrade women at will, treat them as property, then negotiate down from that. Who cares how clear one's motives become, it's all a negotiation, right?
| 41 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:16:31pm |
re: #29 brookly red
you all need to get a grip, this is not a real policy issue it is a point to be conceded later in exchange for something else...
why do I bother.
When real women get real metal wands shoved up their private cavities just so that they can get their rapist child aborted before it fully ruins there lives this is very much a "policy issue"
And the GOP are FUCKING SICK for using women in this way as a "point to be conceded later'
Sorry for making you suffer horrific torment laddies, we needed to have something to give up so as to make the dems agree to lower taxes!
| 42 |
Ojoe Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:16:37pm |
re: #36 SanFranciscoZionist
The sun held still for one of the battles in the Bible, but I forget which one.
| 43 |
brookly red Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:16:51pm |
re: #23 Obdicut
It is not only a fucking option, it is the goddamn law! Do you understand that law was actually passed?
OK no I did not realize that the law had been passed... my bad. I thought it was just proposed. In that case I stand corrected & no longer support the back & forth.
| 45 |
Targetpractice Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:17:28pm |
re: #29 brookly red
you all need to get a grip, this is not a real policy issue it is a point to be conceded later in exchange for something else...
why do I bother.
Because the GOP's actions up to now make it perfectly clear that their ultimate goal is the outlawing of abortion in this nation. Up til now, they talked "exceptions," but even that "moderate" position is now being done away with in order to win over the far-Right. How many GOP candidates in '08, at one time or another, talked about how they'd see about overturning Roe v Wade? Or how much they focused on it during the Bush SCOTUS nominee hearings?
This is not taking an outrageous position looking to "compromise," this is a line in the sand.
| 46 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:17:41pm |
re: #41 jamesfirecat
metal?? it's bad enough without the exaggeration...
| 47 |
Max Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:17:48pm |
Is it fair to assume that Angle and Buck would go along with Rand in support of the absolutist "Right to Life Amendment?"
| 48 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:18:01pm |
re: #38 Ojoe
That seems to be a contradiction.
No it isn't.
Let me lay it out for you.
It all revolves around how sacrosanct a person's organs are.
Its okay or at least not illegal to "kill" a person (in the sense of leave them to die) by denying them access to your organs, isn't it?
| 49 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:18:07pm |
re: #14 Obdicut
Forcing a woman to have a wand shoved into her vagina after she was raped bears no resemblance to buying a used car, no.
Agreed. That said, Maddow won't change my mind. The GOP candidate for Governor of Illinois, Bill Brady, does not support rape or incest exceptions to abortion prohibition (though he does except it to save the mother's life). However, I will still be voting for Brady in the fall. Illinois simply cannot take 4 fours years of the Democratic Machine, and if pushback against the machine means electing a wingnut, then I find the price worth paying.
| 50 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:18:15pm |
re: #29 brookly red
you all need to get a grip, this is not a real policy issue it is a point to be conceded later in exchange for something else...
why do I bother.
there is a legal requirement forcing women to get an invasive ultrasound prior to getting an abortion in LA
period, end of story
that is law, full on actual real law, not some conceptual policy bon mot
| 51 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:19:09pm |
re: #46 Aceofwhat?
metal?? it's bad enough without the exaggeration...
Sorry, I luckily don't know that much about the procedure, is it a plastic wand?
| 52 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:19:19pm |
re: #47 Max D. Reinhardt
Is it fair to assume that Angle and Buck would go along with Rand in support of the absolutist "Right to Life Amendment?"
Yes, it is.
| 53 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:19:26pm |
re: #49 Dark_Falcon
Agreed. That said, Maddow won't change my mind. The GOP candidate for Governor of Illinois, Bill Brady, does not support rape or incest exceptions to abortion prohibition (though he does except it to save the mother's life). However, I will still be voting for Brady in the fall. Illinois simply cannot take 4 fours years of the Democratic Machine, and if pushback against the machine means electing a wingnut, then I find the price worth paying.
so basically you're okay with utter crazies because they're not democrats, ookay
| 54 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:19:33pm |
re: #42 Ojoe
The sun held still for one of the battles in the Bible, but I forget which one.
Gibeon?
After Google:
Yes, Gibeon. Joshua, Chapter 10
On the day the LORD gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the LORD in the presence of Israel: "O sun, stand still over Gibeon, O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon."
So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.
There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the LORD listened to a man. Surely the LORD was fighting for Israel!
| 55 |
windsagio Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:19:41pm |
re: #45 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
This is not taking an outrageous position looking to "compromise," this is a line in the sand.
There's been a lot of that around lately, I think they're feeling cornered.
| 56 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:19:43pm |
re: #51 jamesfirecat
Sorry, I luckily don't know that much about the procedure, is it a plastic wand?
Yes.
| 58 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:20:06pm |
re: #49 Dark_Falcon
Agreed. That said, Maddow won't change my mind. The GOP candidate for Governor of Illinois, Bill Brady, does not support rape or incest exceptions to abortion prohibition (though he does except it to save the mother's life). However, I will still be voting for Brady in the fall. Illinois simply cannot take 4 fours years of the Democratic Machine, and if pushback against the machine means electing a wingnut, then I find the price worth paying.
"First Hitler, then us!"
(Sorry to go all Godwin on you Dark)
| 59 |
Lidane Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:20:40pm |
re: #33 CarleeCork
"If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament." Erica Jong
Shit. If men could get pregnant, birth control would be cheap, readily available and covered by insurance. Also, morning after pills would be offered at every bar, like beer nuts.
| 60 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:20:44pm |
re: #51 jamesfirecat
Sorry, I luckily don't know that much about the procedure, is it a plastic wand?
yep. still unconscionable to force upon a person, so the overall point stands...
| 61 |
CarleeCork Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:20:46pm |
re: #51 jamesfirecat
Sorry, I luckily don't know that much about the procedure, is it a plastic wand?
Does it matter? I hate Pap Smears. I don't want anything shoved up my vagina without my consent.
| 62 |
windsagio Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:20:57pm |
re: #58 jamesfirecat
Always said a Godwin was okay if you copped to it :)
| 63 |
Max Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:20:57pm |
re: #52 Dark_Falcon
Yes, it is.
Does anyone have any idea about how many Republicans support the Paul's "Right to Life Amendment?"
| 64 |
brookly red Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:21:02pm |
re: #50 WindUpBird
there is a legal requirement forcing women to get an invasive ultrasound prior to getting an abortion in LA
period, end of story
that is law, full on actual real law, not some conceptual policy bon mot
as per my 43 I said I did not realize the law was passed, I assumed it was a proposal to be negotiated, I was wrong & I said so.
| 65 |
webevintage Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:21:22pm |
Each and every abortion law passed in the last few years are designed to make it increasingly difficult or a pain in the ass for a woman to get an abortion.
They are about chipping away at the access for women to have a legal health procedure done.
We are NOT stupid.
We do not need our hands held.
We do not need a wand put in our vaginas to give a clear picture of the fetus/baby in the womb.
There is a segment of this society that still thinks that women can not make decisions like this on their own or that they are too emotional to look at things rationally.
The only way women can be equal citizens is to be able to choose when they procreate.
| 66 |
Targetpractice Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:21:31pm |
re: #63 Max D. Reinhardt
Does anyone have any idea about how many Republicans support the Paul's "Right to Life Amendment?"
Too fraking many.
| 67 |
Ojoe Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:22:13pm |
re: #21 boxhead
Why? It should not be so. Rational people do not need irrational positions to start a negotiation. If they do so then they are not negotiating in good faith.
You might like the
Modern Whig Party
I don't think we will anymore see much good faith between the Democrats and the Republicans.
| 68 |
TheMatrix31 Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:22:15pm |
re: #53 WindUpBird
Maybe he feels that the machine is full of worse "crazies" for him and his state?
| 69 |
boxhead Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:22:34pm |
re: #49 Dark_Falcon
Agreed. That said, Maddow won't change my mind. The GOP candidate for Governor of Illinois, Bill Brady, does not support rape or incest exceptions to abortion prohibition (though he does except it to save the mother's life). However, I will still be voting for Brady in the fall. Illinois simply cannot take 4 fours years of the Democratic Machine, and if pushback against the machine means electing a wingnut, then I find the price worth paying.
Trying to understand your acceptance of infringing upon the Rights of over half of the Citizens in your state versus having the Machine. I think I would have to vote for the non infringing side cause what the GOP wants to do to women is unacceptable.
| 70 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:22:40pm |
re: #49 Dark_Falcon
Agreed. That said, Maddow won't change my mind. The GOP candidate for Governor of Illinois, Bill Brady, does not support rape or incest exceptions to abortion prohibition (though he does except it to save the mother's life). However, I will still be voting for Brady in the fall. Illinois simply cannot take 4 fours years of the Democratic Machine, and if pushback against the machine means electing a wingnut, then I find the price worth paying.
Weak sauce and hyperbolic bullshit. Illinois will survive, you vote the way you do because you think in terms of factions. You can't even personalize the Democratic candidate, it's all one big "machine" to you. Boo.
| 71 |
DaddyLawBucks Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:22:45pm |
re: #66 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Goes right along with their small govt theme, after all, what could be more appropriate than the Government making intimate decisions for women?
| 72 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:22:55pm |
re: #62 windsagio
Always said a Godwin was okay if you copped to it :)
Okay, also to make the point clear on what the meaning of the quote is, let me make it perfectly clear what I was trying to say.
Dark, your never going to get Sane Republican candidates if you encourage these loonies....
| 73 |
Targetpractice Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:23:08pm |
re: #65 webevintage
Each and every abortion law passed in the last few years are designed to make it increasingly difficult or a pain in the ass for a woman to get an abortion.
They are about chipping away at the access for women to have a legal health procedure done.We are NOT stupid.
We do not need our hands held.
We do not need a wand put in our vaginas to give a clear picture of the fetus/baby in the womb.
There is a segment of this society that still thinks that women can not make decisions like this on their own or that they are too emotional to look at things rationally.The only way women can be equal citizens is to be able to choose when they procreate.
It's more about shaming women, making them afraid of going to seek abortions because, between the bureaucratic bullshit and all the procedures and regs made to pressure women into "rethinking" their decision, it's too much of a hassle. Doubly so for those women who've found themselves pregnant as a result of incest or rape.
| 74 |
Varek Raith Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:23:14pm |
re: #68 TheMatrix31
Maybe he feels that the machine is full of worse "crazies" for him and his state?
If that's the only choice, fuck it.
I'm not voting.
| 75 |
windsagio Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:23:14pm |
re: #68 TheMatrix31
Maybe he feels that the machine is full of worse "crazies" for him and his state?
On what grounds, that they're Demoncrats?
| 76 |
Max Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:23:32pm |
re: #49 Dark_Falcon
Agreed. That said, Maddow won't change my mind. The GOP candidate for Governor of Illinois, Bill Brady, does not support rape or incest exceptions to abortion prohibition (though he does except it to save the mother's life). However, I will still be voting for Brady in the fall. Illinois simply cannot take 4 fours years of the Democratic Machine, and if pushback against the machine means electing a wingnut, then I find the price worth paying.
I'm sure that Nevadan Lizards are having the same problem. Harry Reid is a scummy, canny politician, but Sharron Angle is an isolationist, anti-science, conspiracy nut. As much as I detest Reid, I think I would have to support him.
| 77 |
TheMatrix31 Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:23:41pm |
re: #70 goddamnedfrank
Do you live in Illinois? Serious question.
| 78 |
webevintage Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:23:50pm |
re: #51 jamesfirecat
Sorry, I luckily don't know that much about the procedure, is it a plastic wand?
Well 18 years ago it was about 8 inches long and 3 inches around.
Yeah...good times.
| 79 |
Ojoe Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:23:54pm |
re: #48 jamesfirecat
Like I'm not the only person with organs, if I keep mine there might be some other Ducati Desmo rider donating his.
| 80 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:24:06pm |
re: #70 goddamnedfrank
Weak sauce and hyperbolic bullshit. Illinois will survive, you vote the way you do because you think in terms of factions. You can't even personalize the Democratic candidate, it's all one big "machine" to you. Boo.
right. because what they need is another Blagojevich.
| 81 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:24:11pm |
re: #73 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
I've asked it before, I'll ask it again: How often is incest not rape? How many babies are conceived through consensual, adult, incestual sex?
| 82 |
boxhead Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:24:23pm |
re: #67 Ojoe
You might like the
Modern Whig PartyI don't think we will anymore see much good faith between the Democrats and the Republicans.
I sent them emails and started a conversation. Then they went quiet. I am still VERY interested in getting involved with the limited free time I have.
| 83 |
TheMatrix31 Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:24:26pm |
re: #75 windsagio
The Chicago/Illinois Machine is a very famous in their corruption. I guess it just so happens that they're strong left-leaning.
| 84 |
windsagio Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:24:33pm |
re: #77 TheMatrix31
Do you live in Illinois? Serious question.
Serious, but unfortunately meaningless.
| 85 |
TheMatrix31 Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:25:12pm |
re: #74 Varek Raith
If I don't vote, I have no right to bitch.
| 86 |
McSpiff Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:25:14pm |
re: #49 Dark_Falcon
Agreed. That said, Maddow won't change my mind. The GOP candidate for Governor of Illinois, Bill Brady, does not support rape or incest exceptions to abortion prohibition (though he does except it to save the mother's life). However, I will still be voting for Brady in the fall. Illinois simply cannot take 4 fours years of the Democratic Machine, and if pushback against the machine means electing a wingnut, then I find the price worth paying.
Glad you're happy trading rights for political points...
| 87 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:25:42pm |
re: #79 Ojoe
Like I'm not the only person with organs, if I keep mine there might be some other Ducati Desmo rider donating his.
But if a person told you "I need one of your kidneys to live" is it murder if you don't give him it?
| 88 |
TheMatrix31 Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:26:03pm |
re: #84 windsagio
That question wasn't directed to you, so I'd appreciate if you don't respond or judge it.
| 89 |
Targetpractice Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:26:11pm |
re: #81 EmmmieG
I've asked it before, I'll ask it again: How often is incest not rape? How many babies are conceived through consensual, adult, incestual sex?
No way of telling, not without mandatory DNA testing. But one has to consider that there are several states in the union where marrying a first cousin is perfectly legal.
| 90 |
Obdicut Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:26:16pm |
re: #49 Dark_Falcon
Agreed. That said, Maddow won't change my mind. The GOP candidate for Governor of Illinois, Bill Brady, does not support rape or incest exceptions to abortion prohibition (though he does except it to save the mother's life). However, I will still be voting for Brady in the fall. Illinois simply cannot take 4 fours years of the Democratic Machine, and if pushback against the machine means electing a wingnut, then I find the price worth paying.
You won't pay the price, Dark.
The women in your state will.
Think about that.
You're not paying any price. You're making others pay.
| 91 |
webevintage Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:26:19pm |
re: #78 webevintage
Well 18 years ago it was about 8 inches long and 3 inches around.
Yeah...good times.
and plastic, they are plastic, not metal.
I guess that makes it better...
I would assume that as the technology has improved the wands used for a vaginal ultrasound have gotten smaller.
God, I would hope so.
| 92 |
Varek Raith Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:26:29pm |
re: #85 TheMatrix31
If I don't vote, I have no right to bitch.
If that's the case, then you must take responsibility for helping elect a crazy theocrat.
Well done, old bean!
| 93 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:26:46pm |
re: #85 TheMatrix31
If I don't vote, I have no right to bitch.
Oh, no. First ammendment. You have an endless right to whine. In print, in video, out loud, in toothpick letters on jello...
Now, you don't have the right to make me listen, but you have the right to speak.
| 94 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:27:19pm |
I love that the party of Blagojevich is telling DFalcon that he ought to be a one-issue voter, where the issue in question is quite unrelated to the function of the office.
| 95 |
TheMatrix31 Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:27:58pm |
re: #92 Varek Raith
Luckily I don't give a fuck about religious things when it comes to politicians. All I want is someone who will kick some ass and let me keep my money. Sorry if it's that simple for me.
| 97 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:28:05pm |
re: #81 EmmmieG
I've asked it before, I'll ask it again: How often is incest not rape? How many babies are conceived through consensual, adult, incestual sex?
I'm going to guess damn few.
| 99 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:28:15pm |
re: #81 EmmmieG
I've asked it before, I'll ask it again: How often is incest not rape? How many babies are conceived through consensual, adult, incestual sex?
///Well there was this during the last Winter Olympics... Image: 007BGO_Amy_Poehler_021.jpg
| 101 |
Max Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:28:30pm |
I don't know too much about the "Democratic Machine" in Illinois but from what I've heard (Blago, et al) it's a pretty corrupt party. It's great to stand on principle, and I am unhappy about anti-corruption candidates who are anti-choice, but I think it's up people like Dark to decide what's more corrosive, an anti-choice loon (who may or may not be able to significantly effect abortion policy, he may just be using the issue to rally the base) or another corrupt Democrat.
| 102 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:28:37pm |
re: #83 TheMatrix31
The Chicago/Illinois Machine is a very famous in their corruption. I guess it just so happens that they're strong left-leaning.
Do you think it is a coincidence?
| 103 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:28:46pm |
re: #99 jamesfirecat
///Well there was this during the last Winter Olympics... Image: 007BGO_Amy_Poehler_021.jpg
Whaa...Who is this?
| 104 |
TheMatrix31 Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:28:53pm |
re: #93 EmmmieG
Someone might actually have the right to, but I dont believe they do. If they don't vote, then they need to shut up because they didn't put their choice in.
| 105 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:28:56pm |
re: #87 jamesfirecat
But if a person told you "I need one of your kidneys to live" is it murder if you don't give him it?
there are lots of good, logical reasons to support your position. This isn't one of them. a baby does not consume organs.
| 106 |
windsagio Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:29:00pm |
re: #101 Max D. Reinhardt
He can vote how he wants, we can tell him what we think :D
| 107 |
Ojoe Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:29:04pm |
re: #87 jamesfirecat
No, I don't think so, it would be some disease that would do him in; that said most people would donate; a neighbor of mine enjoyed about 8 more years of life because one of her daughters donated a kidney to her mom.
| 108 |
Varek Raith Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:29:11pm |
re: #95 TheMatrix31
Luckily I don't give a fuck about religious things when it comes to politicians. All I want is someone who will kick some ass and let me keep my money. Sorry if it's that simple for me.
I figured as much.
Who cares if they're for bringing us back to the Dark Ages as long as I get my money.
| 109 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:29:24pm |
re: #96 Obdicut
'the party of Blagojevich'?
why, is there a 3rd-party candidate running that i don't know about?
| 110 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:29:44pm |
| 111 |
McSpiff Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:29:45pm |
re: #108 Varek Raith
I figured as much.
Who cares if they're for bringing us back to the Dark Ages as long as I get my money.
"ITS ALL ABOUT ME!"
| 112 |
brookly red Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:29:47pm |
re: #96 Obdicut
'the party of Blagojevich'?
funny but to hard to pronounce... it will never catch on.
| 114 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:30:22pm |
re: #89 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
No way of telling, not without mandatory DNA testing. But one has to consider that there are several states in the union where marrying a first cousin is perfectly legal.
A first cousin is not incest, unless you're the medieval church.
(Full disclosure: one of my sets of great-grands were first cousins. It was Belarus before the First World War. It snowed year-round, and they wouldn't let Jews have horses. Or shovels. A first cousin was about as good as it got.)
| 115 |
Max Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:30:29pm |
re: #106 windsagio
He can vote how he wants, we can tell him what we think :D
That's fine, but I don't live in Illinois, so I don't know how Democratic corruption effects the efficiency of state and local government there.
| 116 |
Obdicut Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:30:32pm |
re: #109 Aceofwhat?
why, is there a 3rd-party candidate running that i don't know about?
| 117 |
boxhead Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:31:03pm |
Does anyone know if a legal challenge to Louisiana's law has been made?
| 118 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:31:07pm |
| 119 |
Obdicut Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:31:09pm |
| 120 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:31:17pm |
re: #116 Obdicut
awww...you quoted me just to hear the sound of my voice/
| 122 |
McSpiff Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:31:41pm |
re: #118 SanFranciscoZionist
Lets throw in Foley for them too.
| 123 |
brookly red Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:31:51pm |
| 124 |
Targetpractice Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:32:11pm |
re: #114 SanFranciscoZionist
A first cousin is not incest, unless you're the medieval church.
(Full disclosure: one of my sets of great-grands were first cousins. It was Belarus before the First World War. It snowed year-round, and they wouldn't let Jews have horses. Or shovels. A first cousin was about as good as it got.)
That's alright, I got an aunt and uncle who are first cousins. Didn't find out though until after they were already married and had two kids.
| 125 |
Ojoe Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:32:15pm |
re: #82 boxhead
Oh gee, send another e-mail.
This page on the Whig site has the state & regional organizations with e-mail addresses for each.
| 126 |
celticdragon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:32:26pm |
re: #2 Obdicut
What the fuck.
You can't run a society like that. It turns into a competition for who can be more extremist.
Like Saudi Arabia.
Moving backwards on this is insane.
I knew we were in trouble a couple of years ago when I started seeing more and more arguments at Townhall that the SCOTUS decision affirming the right to privacy (and the right to buy contreceptives) was a librul example of black robed tyranny that needed to be overturned.
I couldn't fucking believe that. These people are really trying to undo the last 70 years of civil rights jurisprudence. They have 4 allies on the SCOTUS. I really hate tro say that, since I thibnk the 2nd Amendment decisions were the best to be expected, but the conservative wing of the court has a real dark side to it.
| 127 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:32:39pm |
re: #103 EmmmieG
Whaa...Who is this?
In the Movie Blades of Glory; Stranz and Fairchild Van Waldenberg, in real life Will Arnett and Amy Poehler, they're married in real life but played siblings in the movie.
| 128 |
KingKenrod Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:32:40pm |
re: #117 boxhead
Does anyone know if a legal challenge to Louisiana's law has been made?
It's been under injunction since May and will remain so at least until a pre-trial hearing in January.
| 129 |
Varek Raith Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:32:41pm |
re: #122 McSpiff
Lets throw in Foley for them too.
CODE PINK!
ACORN!
SEIU THUGS!
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
| 130 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:32:58pm |
re: #105 Aceofwhat?
there are lots of good, logical reasons to support your position. This isn't one of them. a baby does not consume organs.
A baby requires the use of all of your organs, your oxygen supply and your bloodstream to keep it going throughout the pregnancy. No one would demand legally that you make these available to a born person.
James' argument is not one I choose to work with, but it has some logical merits.
| 131 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:33:10pm |
re: #53 WindUpBird
so basically you're okay with utter crazies because they're not democrats, ookay
re: #94 Aceofwhat?
I love that the party of Blagojevich is telling DFalcon that he ought to be a one-issue voter, where the issue in question is quite unrelated to the function of the office.
Agreed. But what else can Pat Quinn run on? "Vote for Pat Quinn. He'll Raise Your Taxes!" doesn't work as a slogan, nor does "Pat Quinn: At Least He's Not Blago".
| 132 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:33:18pm |
re: #119 Obdicut
Sorry. I meant to say:
Blago isn't running.
And i don't blame DF or anyone else in Illinois for wanting to punish the party that did run him, even if they don't agree with the Republican candidate on all of the issues. On the contrary, i'm surprised that folks think that the Democrats don't deserve to lose this race to someone far crazier. Serves them right.
| 134 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:33:34pm |
re: #107 Ojoe
No, I don't think so, it would be some disease that would do him in; that said most people would donate; a neighbor of mine enjoyed about 8 more years of life because one of her daughters donated a kidney to her mom.
But like I said, while it may be a very nice thing for you to donate, it is not illegal if you refuse to.
So we agree that a human being's organs are sacrosanct and no other human being can lay claim to them without their owners permission, correct?
| 135 |
McSpiff Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:33:38pm |
| 136 |
CarleeCork Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:33:41pm |
re: #101 Max D. Reinhardt
Wow! Wish the people of Texas were so smart!
| 137 |
KingKenrod Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:33:50pm |
re: #128 KingKenrod
It's been under injunction since May and will remain so at least until a pre-trial hearing in January.
Actually a correction ... that's the Oklahoma law Obdicut mentioned earlier. I don't know about LA.
| 138 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:33:55pm |
re: #121 windsagio
I posted that and then thought 'what did I just say?'
/bonk self.
haaa...that's why i kept the rejoinder pithy...i figured you were momentarily distracted.
| 139 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:33:59pm |
re: #95 TheMatrix31
Luckily I don't give a fuck about religious things when it comes to politicians. All I want is someone who will kick some ass and let me keep my money. Sorry if it's that simple for me.
This 'religious thing' involves the rights of individuals. Are you so blase about gun issues?
| 140 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:34:22pm |
re: #105 Aceofwhat?
there are lots of good, logical reasons to support your position. This isn't one of them. a baby does not consume organs.
It does not consume organs, but it does make use of the mother's organs in some cases without the mother's permission.
| 141 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:34:23pm |
| 142 |
celticdragon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:34:23pm |
re: #129 Varek Raith
CODE PINK!
ACORN!
SEIU THUGS!
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! Praise Lord Khorne!
Khorne for President 2012. Why vote for lesser of two evils?
| 143 |
boxhead Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:34:25pm |
re: #125 Ojoe
Oh gee, send another e-mail.
This page on the Whig site has the state & regional organizations with e-mail addresses for each.
will do.... I like that is was started by Vets. I donate time to the VFW hall near my house. It is a good thing.....
| 144 |
Targetpractice Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:34:31pm |
re: #129 Varek Raith
CODE PINK!
ACORN!
SEIU THUGS!
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
JJJJEEEEWWWWSSSS!!!!!!
///
| 145 |
Obdicut Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:34:33pm |
re: #132 Aceofwhat?
And i don't blame DF or anyone else in Illinois for wanting to punish the party that did run him,
I do. It makes no fucking sense.
On the contrary, i'm surprised that folks think that the Democrats don't deserve to lose this race to someone far crazier. Serves them right.
This is fucking crazy talk.
Can you explain how it leads to a good result to intentionally vote for an extremist?
| 146 |
brookly red Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:34:34pm |
| 147 |
boxhead Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:34:48pm |
re: #128 KingKenrod
It's been under injunction since May and will remain so at least until a pre-trial hearing in January.
cool.....
| 148 |
TheMatrix31 Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:34:54pm |
re: #135 McSpiff
Nor Luap!
I hate Code Pink, ACORN, SEIU and I think Ron Paul can go fuck himself too.
| 150 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:35:18pm |
| 151 |
Max Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:35:32pm |
Abortion rights are an important issue to me, and like I said it's great to stand on principle, but you have to remember what your ultimate objection for an election is. Dark's ultimate objection may be cutting bureaucracy and increasing transparency.
| 152 |
boxhead Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:35:39pm |
re: #137 KingKenrod
Actually a correction ... that's the Oklahoma law Obdicut mentioned earlier. I don't know about LA.
ok... My brother lives in LA. I need to ask him....
| 153 |
TheMatrix31 Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:35:40pm |
re: #139 SanFranciscoZionist
Yeah, not nearly as big a deal to me as foreign policy and economic stuff (on a federal scale, I mean)
| 154 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:35:46pm |
re: #130 SanFranciscoZionist
A baby requires the use of all of your organs, your oxygen supply and your bloodstream to keep it going throughout the pregnancy. No one would demand legally that you make these available to a born person.
James' argument is not one I choose to work with, but it has some logical merits.
sharing ≠ consuming. if it's a PBJ sandwich, i'll concede that there isn't much difference. if it's an organ, it's an important distinction, no? ;)
| 155 |
Varek Raith Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:35:46pm |
re: #148 TheMatrix31
I hate Code Pink, ACORN, SEIU and I think Ron Paul can go fuck himself too.
Well, your part of the Ron Paul Machine.
How's it feel?
| 156 |
Max Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:35:49pm |
re: #148 TheMatrix31
I hate Code Pink, ACORN, SEIU and I think Ron Paul can go fuck himself too.
Don't forget ANSWER too.
| 157 |
McSpiff Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:36:03pm |
re: #148 TheMatrix31
I hate Code Pink, ACORN, SEIU and I think Ron Paul can go fuck himself too.
Shit, I don't have nearly that much hate in me. Take up yoga or something.
| 158 |
Targetpractice Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:36:15pm |
| 159 |
Obdicut Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:36:23pm |
re: #151 Max D. Reinhardt
Dark's ultimate objection may be cutting bureaucracy and increasing transparency.
Well, it's not the GOP you want, then.
Jesus, this is depressing.
I'm out.
| 160 |
brookly red Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:36:28pm |
| 161 |
ProGunLiberal Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:36:36pm |
I might be Pro-Life, but I would never vote for anyone of these nuts who would but women's health in danger. I'm sorry, I'm going to stick to my three exceptions, and if one goes over that, then they lose any possiblitity of my vote.
Off-topic but interesting, is this map of the number of Muslims as a percentage of a county's population for the entire United States. I think its interesting. Right now, the Highest Concentrations are in Detroit, Toledo, Trenton, NYC, Passaic & Hudson County New Jersey, the D.C. Metro area, and the Atlanta Metro Area. I think it's interesting.
| 162 |
Varek Raith Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:36:41pm |
| 163 |
McSpiff Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:36:57pm |
re: #159 Obdicut
Democrats make some people feel icky. Nothing you can do about that.
| 164 |
celticdragon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:37:08pm |
re: #157 McSpiff
Shit, I don't have nearly that much hate in me. Take up yoga or something.
I hate avocado in my shrimp sandwich.
| 165 |
boxhead Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:37:15pm |
re: #157 McSpiff
Shit, I don't have nearly that much hate in me. Take up yoga or something.
LOL preach on brother Gandhi!
| 166 |
TheMatrix31 Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:37:18pm |
re: #132 Aceofwhat?
And i don't blame DF or anyone else in Illinois for wanting to punish the party that did run him, even if they don't agree with the Republican candidate on all of the issues. On the contrary, i'm surprised that folks think that the Democrats don't deserve to lose this race to someone far crazier. Serves them right.
If there are two pieces of shit, and both have some pretty big dealbreakers, but one is much closer to my views on a few things that matter most to me, you best believe I'm going to vote for the one that's closer to my thoughts on those few issues.
| 167 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:37:19pm |
re: #124 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
That's alright, I got an aunt and uncle who are first cousins. Didn't find out though until after they were already married and had two kids.
There is a running gag throughout _A Proud Taste for Scarlet and Miniver_, where St. Bernard of Clairvaux--Bishop Bernard at the time--keeps trying to shoot down every possible match between the assorted European royals, on ground of consanguinity.
| 168 |
brookly red Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:37:23pm |
re: #148 TheMatrix31
I hate Code Pink, ACORN, SEIU and I think Ron Paul can go fuck himself too.
now I think we need a top 10 list....
| 169 |
Targetpractice Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:37:23pm |
| 170 |
TheMatrix31 Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:37:36pm |
re: #155 Varek Raith
Well, your part of the Ron Paul Machine.
How's it feel?
I'm part of the Ron Paul machine? In what way?
| 171 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:37:37pm |
re: #154 Aceofwhat?
sharing ≠ consuming. if it's a PBJ sandwich, i'll concede that there isn't much difference. if it's an organ, it's an important distinction, no? ;)
How about this then?
Would you like to have your organs "shared" against your will by a fully grown human being who needs to use your kidneys for dialysis?
| 172 |
celticdragon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:37:50pm |
re: #162 Varek Raith
The Swiss.
Neutral people piss me off!
/
I think Swiss pikemen rock...but that was 400 years ago...
| 173 |
Varek Raith Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:37:59pm |
re: #169 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
If I die, tell my wife "Hello."
/
Live free, of don't.
| 175 |
McSpiff Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:38:21pm |
re: #172 celticdragon
I think Swiss pikemen rock...but that was 400 years ago...
I hear there's a few left hanging out in italy.
| 176 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:38:31pm |
re: #161 ProLifeLiberal
I might be Pro-Life, but I would never vote for anyone of these nuts who would but women's health in danger. I'm sorry, I'm going to stick to my three exceptions, and if one goes over that, then they lose any possiblitity of my vote.
Off-topic but interesting, is this map of the number of Muslims as a percentage of a county's population for the entire United States. I think its interesting. Right now, the Highest Concentrations are in Detroit, Toledo, Trenton, NYC, Passaic & Hudson County New Jersey, the D.C. Metro area, and the Atlanta Metro Area. I think it's interesting.
Why are you pro life?
(I'll argue why I'm pro choice with you if I want, I'm only doing it with two other people at the moment!)
| 177 |
Max Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:38:38pm |
re: #161 ProLifeLiberal
Off-topic but interesting, is this map of the number of Muslims as a percentage of a county's population for the entire United States. I think its interesting. Right now, the Highest Concentrations are in Detroit, Toledo, Trenton, NYC, Passaic & Hudson County New Jersey, the D.C. Metro area, and the Atlanta Metro Area. I think it's interesting.
Why is that interesting to you?
| 178 |
TheMatrix31 Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:38:41pm |
re: #157 McSpiff
Shit, I don't have nearly that much hate in me. Take up yoga or something.
That's not that much hate. That's 3 garbage organizations and one piece of shit person.
| 179 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:38:49pm |
re: #131 Dark_Falcon
Agreed. But what else can Pat Quinn run on? "Vote for Pat Quinn. He'll Raise Your Taxes!" doesn't work as a slogan, nor does "Pat Quinn: At Least He's Not Blago".
I actually think "At Least He's Not Blago" has some potential.
| 180 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:39:02pm |
I recognize the voice interviewing angle in the first clip. It's 9-11 Truther Alex Jones.
| 181 |
brookly red Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:39:04pm |
re: #164 celticdragon
I hate avocado in my shrimp sandwich.
see if you had put your shrimps on a pizza this would not be an issue.
| 182 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:39:53pm |
re: #140 jamesfirecat
It does not consume organs, but it does make use of the mother's organs in some cases without the mother's permission.
i agree. so kidney donation is a bit of a reach, no?
really, you have 99% of abortion hard-liners at "fertility clinics". their silence on that point is deafening...and it was an instructive thought exercise for me as a teenager trying to figure out how i should reconcile a belief that an 8-month old fetus is a person with a belief that it was too intrusive to tell women what to do with what is essentially a cyst in the early stages.
| 183 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:40:19pm |
re: #132 Aceofwhat?
And i don't blame DF or anyone else in Illinois for wanting to punish the party that did run him, even if they don't agree with the Republican candidate on all of the issues. On the contrary, i'm surprised that folks think that the Democrats don't deserve to lose this race to someone far crazier. Serves them right.
And everyone please do note that no one in my extended family voted for Brady in the primary (I myself voted for Andy McKenna). But the non-socon GOP vote split among three candidates while the socons rallied around Brady. He won a close primary. After it was over, my best friend and I examined the situation and found that even though we don't agree with Brady's social positions his honesty, the fact that he'd rather cut spending and waste than raise taxes, and the fact that he's not in thrall to the Machine makes him a the better choice for Illinois.
| 184 |
Lidane Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:40:40pm |
re: #157 McSpiff
Shit, I don't have nearly that much hate in me.
I don't either. It's not worth the mental or spiritual energy, IMO. There are politicians and people I don't like, but hate is far too visceral for me.
Take up yoga or something.
Music is good too. For example, the latest Arcade Fire album. Total awesomeness. Definitely worth the buy. *nods*
| 185 |
Aldous Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:40:41pm |
If past behavior is any indication, I am sure their own daughters and wives are excluded from these requirements.
Like Mary Cheney and Bristol Palin, etc.
| 186 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:40:45pm |
re: #154 Aceofwhat?
sharing ≠ consuming. if it's a PBJ sandwich, i'll concede that there isn't much difference. if it's an organ, it's an important distinction, no? ;)
It is. As I say, there's reasons I don't entirely embrace this argument enough to use it.
| 187 |
Varek Raith Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:40:51pm |
re: #170 TheMatrix31
I'm part of the Ron Paul machine? In what way?
Probably in no way.
Just broadbrushing the Rs just like you broadbrush the Ds.
Fun, no?
| 188 |
TheMatrix31 Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:41:09pm |
re: #184 Lidane
Music is good too. For example, the latest Arcade Fire album. Total awesomeness. Definitely worth the buy. *nods*
You're so enlightened.
| 189 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:41:14pm |
re: #156 Max D. Reinhardt
Don't forget ANSWER too.
Everyone always forgets ANSWER, and they are a hell of a lot more influential and sinister than stupid little Code Pink.
| 190 |
Varek Raith Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:41:32pm |
re: #189 SanFranciscoZionist
Everyone always forgets ANSWER, and they are a hell of a lot more influential and sinister than stupid little Code Pink.
Bingo!
| 191 |
celticdragon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:41:43pm |
re: #175 McSpiff
I hear there's a few left hanging out in italy.
They only have swords and halberds. meh.
| 192 |
TheMatrix31 Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:41:50pm |
re: #187 Varek Raith
Probably in no way.
Just broadbrushing the Rs just like you broadbrush the Ds.
Fun, no?
Stupid.
| 193 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:41:59pm |
re: #182 Aceofwhat?
i agree. so kidney donation is a bit of a reach, no?
really, you have 99% of abortion hard-liners at "fertility clinics". their silence on that point is deafening...and it was an instructive thought exercise for me as a teenager trying to figure out how i should reconcile a belief that an 8-month old fetus is a person with a belief that it was too intrusive to tell women what to do with what is essentially a cyst in the early stages.
Well fine then my argument works fine without kidney donation.
What if instead of the kidney being donated, the person is hooked up to you via some wires so that you can work like a living dialysis machine.
The person is only sharing your organs, and without them they would die?
Should it be illegal to refuse a person this service?
| 194 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:42:09pm |
re: #159 Obdicut
Well, it's not the GOP you want, then.
Jesus, this is depressing.
I'm out.
sorry if you're depressed, but in Illinois, the GOP is exactly what you want.
you lived there...don't you remember when the senior Stroger appointed the junior Stroger as the new prez, and everyone just went along with it?
that place is damn near a monarchy.
| 195 |
CarleeCork Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:42:09pm |
re: #181 brookly red
see if you had put your shrimps on a pizza this would not be an issue.
With pineapple!!!
| 196 |
TheMatrix31 Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:42:14pm |
re: #189 SanFranciscoZionist
Everyone always forgets ANSWER, and they are a hell of a lot more influential and sinister than stupid little Code Pink.
I didn't forget them, I was just going off what was in the post.
| 197 |
Varek Raith Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:42:34pm |
| 198 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:42:46pm |
re: #180 Killgore Trout
I recognize the voice interviewing angle in the first clip. It's 9-11 Truther Alex Jones.
Yikes.
BTW: Sorry about my short absence after the remarks I made. Firefox was freezing up.
| 199 |
Lidane Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:42:49pm |
re: #188 TheMatrix31
You're so enlightened.
Nah. I have a long way to go before that ever happens.
I just pick and choose my battles. That's all. :)
| 200 |
Targetpractice Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:42:57pm |
Well folks, I gotta get some shut-eye, gotta be up before the crack of noon.
BBL
| 201 |
celticdragon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:43:15pm |
re: #197 Varek Raith
Yep, it is.
Just like it's stupid to vote for crazies.
But very entertaining...
| 202 |
brookly red Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:43:35pm |
The party of Blagowig... no the the party of Blogawitz... no the party of Blagoswiss... phuc, help me here.
| 203 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:44:12pm |
re: #166 TheMatrix31
If there are two pieces of shit, and both have some pretty big dealbreakers, but one is much closer to my views on a few things that matter most to me, you best believe I'm going to vote for the one that's closer to my thoughts on those few issues.
yep. besides, isn't his position on abortion largely symbolic, given that he's the executive branch of government? just spitballing here...
| 204 |
TheMatrix31 Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:44:25pm |
re: #197 Varek Raith
Yep, it is.
Just like it's stupid to vote for crazies.
I already explained my rationale in such a situation.
| 205 |
celticdragon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:44:38pm |
re: #198 Dark_Falcon
Yikes.
BTW: Sorry about my short absence after the remarks I made. Firefox was freezing up.
You did not make the correct suplications to the Machine God. Contact your local Adeptus Mechanicus priest for remedial penance and training.
| 206 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:44:50pm |
re: #183 Dark_Falcon
And everyone please do note that no one in my extended family voted for Brady in the primary (I myself voted for Andy McKenna). But the non-socon GOP vote split among three candidates while the socons rallied around Brady. He won a close primary. After it was over, my best friend and I examined the situation and found that even though we don't agree with Brady's social positions his honesty, the fact that he'd rather cut spending and waste than raise taxes, and the fact that he's not in thrall to the Machine makes him a the better choice for Illinois.
Dark nothing personal but the fact that you give it a capital letter it makes me have to do this...
THE MACHINE!
| 208 |
windsagio Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:45:29pm |
OT: I was ognna make a new icon, but the image I wanted to use is too big for gimp to scale properly.
/sad panda.
| 209 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:45:38pm |
| 210 |
Varek Raith Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:46:06pm |
re: #204 TheMatrix31
I already explained my rationale in such a situation.
I have two pieces of shit.
One contains food I hate.
The other contains food I love.
Which do I eat?
Answer?
NONE, they are pieces of shit!
| 211 |
TheMatrix31 Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:46:15pm |
re: #206 jamesfirecat
Dark nothing personal but the fact that you give it a capital letter
It's that bad.
| 212 |
brookly red Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:46:24pm |
| 213 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:46:39pm |
re: #193 jamesfirecat
Well fine then my argument works fine without kidney donation.
What if instead of the kidney being donated, the person is hooked up to you via some wires so that you can work like a living dialysis machine.
The person is only sharing your organs, and without them they would die?
Should it be illegal to refuse a person this service?
it's still a bit jacked-up. for example, what if you've been supporting the person up to this point but you want to unhook the machine RIGHT NOW, even if the doctors could artificially support their life without your help?
thorny. stick to fertility clinics. trust me. i know a lot of pro-life folks.
| 214 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:46:46pm |
re: #194 Aceofwhat?
sorry if you're depressed, but in Illinois, the GOP is exactly what you want.
you lived there...don't you remember when the senior Stroger appointed the junior Stroger as the new prez, and everyone just went along with it?
that place is damn near a monarchy.
Agreed. Todd Stroger treated the office of Cook County Board president as fief, too. But his sales tax hike drew the outrage of Cook County's true political royalty, the sons of Richard J. Daley (Richard M. Daley is Chicago's mayor, of course, and John Daley sits on the County Board). Thus Stroger was handed his head in February's state primary.
| 215 |
TheMatrix31 Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:46:54pm |
re: #210 Varek Raith
I have two pieces of shit.
One contains food I hate.
The other contains food I love.
Which do I eat?
Answer?
NONE, they are pieces of shit!
That isn't a proper analogy. Like I said earlier, if I don't vote, I have no right to bitch.
| 216 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:47:20pm |
re: #198 Dark_Falcon
Yikes.
BTW: Sorry about my short absence after the remarks I made. Firefox was freezing up.
No worries. I was making shitake pollenta and tarragon mahi fillets. Quite delicious.
| 217 |
boxhead Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:47:24pm |
re: #161 ProLifeLiberal
I might be Pro-Life, but I would never vote for anyone of these nuts who would but women's health in danger. I'm sorry, I'm going to stick to my three exceptions, and if one goes over that, then they lose any possiblitity of my vote.
yep.... Women are Citizens. I cannot stand the way certain cultures treat women and I wish that our Country did not have to deal with them. Now we have our own kooks who seem to want to out kook those sand dwelling kooks.... sheesh
Off-topic but interesting, is this map of the number of Muslims as a percentage of a county's population for the entire United States. I think its interesting. Right now, the Highest Concentrations are in Detroit, Toledo, Trenton, NYC, Passaic & Hudson County New Jersey, the D.C. Metro area, and the Atlanta Metro Area. I think it's interesting.
Just curious... why do you find it interesting?
| 218 |
Varek Raith Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:47:27pm |
re: #215 TheMatrix31
That isn't a proper analogy. Like I said earlier, if I don't vote, I have no right to bitch.
Fair enough.
I disagree, but fair enough.
| 219 |
brookly red Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:47:38pm |
re: #209 SanFranciscoZionist
Or Ensign? Or Souder?
It's your party you can cry if you want to, cry if you want to....
| 220 |
Max Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:47:51pm |
Got Dostoevsky's "Crime and Punishment" for my Kindle. Gotta get reading.
Good night, Lizards!
| 221 |
boxhead Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:48:04pm |
re: #200 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Well folks, I gotta get some shut-eye, gotta be up before the crack of noon.
BBL
gnite
| 222 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:48:09pm |
re: #213 Aceofwhat?
it's still a bit jacked-up. for example, what if you've been supporting the person up to this point but you want to unhook the machine RIGHT NOW, even if the doctors could artificially support their life without your help?
thorny. stick to fertility clinics. trust me. i know a lot of pro-life folks.
But what do you mean by "supporting the person up to this point"
There is the problem right there.
In real life you haven't been supporting the fetus up to "this point" it came into being without you giving it consent to make use of your organs which should be considered sacrosanct since they are the most private property we can possibly have.
| 223 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:48:31pm |
re: #185 Aldous
If past behavior is any indication, I am sure their own daughters and wives are excluded from these requirements.
Like Mary Cheney and Bristol Palin, etc.
What?
| 224 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:48:32pm |
re: #185 Aldous
If past behavior is any indication, I am sure their own daughters and wives are excluded from these requirements.
Like Mary Cheney and Bristol Palin, etc.
Um, neither of thus two had abortions. But your comment made as much sense as the bilge you spew about Israel, so its just par for the course.
| 225 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:48:58pm |
| 226 |
boxhead Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:49:38pm |
re: #206 jamesfirecat
Dark nothing personal but the fact that you give it a capital letter it makes me have to do this...
THE MACHINE!
[Video]
Why not this?
| 227 |
Varek Raith Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:49:39pm |
| 228 |
celticdragon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:49:59pm |
re: #209 SanFranciscoZionist
Or Ensign? Or Souder?
You've heard of Rangel and Waters and Ensign and Souter...
Clinton and Sessions and Grahm who looks neutered...
But do you recall...the most infamous of them all?
Cue music from Rudolph...
| 229 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:50:09pm |
re: #191 celticdragon
They only have swords and halberds. meh.
But their costumes were designed by Michaelangelo!
(There's a cool scene in one of Robert Tannenbaum's thrillers where a member of the Swiss Guard decapitates a terrorist with his halberd on the altar of St. Patrick's Cathedral. Sadly, Tannenbaum's quality has been going down, but that scene was to die for.)
| 230 |
Kruk Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:50:18pm |
re: #90 Obdicut
You won't pay the price, Dark.
The women in your state will.
Think about that.
You're not paying any price. You're making others pay.
Slightly off topic, but this is the problem I have with the "I don't mind giving up some of my rights if [insert supposedly desirably social/security goal]" argument. My experience is that people making these high minded claims are very rarely in the group who are most at risk of being deprived of those rights.
| 231 |
ProGunLiberal Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:50:18pm |
re: #176 jamesfirecat
I guess I'm Pro-Life because of Religion (I'm Baptist) as odd as it may sound. I believe birth control is a great way to lower abortion, so it should be used far more often. Of course this requires insurance companies to cover it, and I've heard issues regarding this. I personally believe that when the embryo implants, it can no longer be touched. However, the Abortion should still be allowed for health of mother (obvious reasons), rape (to prevent any more mental damage to women), and incest (same as before).
re: #177 Max D. Reinhardt
It's interesting to me because I like seeing where various groups of people live and cluster together. It's an odd quirk of mine.
| 232 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:50:30pm |
Speaking of groups like ANSWER. The BBC had a real good audio documentary today about the "useful idiots", the people who defended Stalin. Found that fascinating. If anyone wants a link, I'll provide.
| 233 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:50:42pm |
re: #205 celticdragon
You did not make the correct suplications to the Machine God. Contact your local Adeptus Mechanicus priest for remedial penance and training.
[fires McKenna-class Battleship's Heavy Naval PPC broadside at CelticDragon]
| 234 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:51:04pm |
re: #222 jamesfirecat
But what do you mean by "supporting the person up to this point"
i mean that abortion at the 8th month and abortion at the 6th week are very, very different scenarios. in one scenario, the theoretical person has been supported for 8 months. follow?
| 235 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:52:13pm |
re: #227 Varek Raith
I miss the silly nutters.
I still face off with them in front of the Israeli Consulate every now and then.
| 236 |
celticdragon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:52:31pm |
re: #233 Dark_Falcon
[fires McKenna-class Battleship's Heavy Naval PPC broadside at CelticDragon]
Heresy gets you nowhere.
| 237 |
Varek Raith Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:52:46pm |
re: #235 SanFranciscoZionist
I still face off with them in front of the Israeli Consulate every now and then.
Give em hell!
With that, I'm out.
Night!
| 238 |
CarleeCork Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:53:04pm |
re: #224 Dark_Falcon
Um, neither of thus two had abortions. But your comment made as much sense as the bilge you spew about Israel, so its just par for the course.
They had 'choice', that's the debate dear.
| 239 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:53:15pm |
re: #234 Aceofwhat?
i mean that abortion at the 8th month and abortion at the 6th week are very, very different scenarios. in one scenario, the theoretical person has been supported for 8 months. follow?
Good point and one I've agreed with for a while. An abortion in the 6th week should not be outlawed, but it would have to be something dire to permit one in the 8th month (since the fetus is viable by then).
| 240 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:53:29pm |
re: #234 Aceofwhat?
i mean that abortion at the 8th month and abortion at the 6th week are very, very different scenarios. in one scenario, the theoretical person has been supported for 8 months. follow?
I never could understand why a woman would have an abortion at 8 months. I mean, one more week and any doctor out there will induce if you ask, and then you can just give the baby away, and people like me will think you are a hero.
Then I went and read the testimonials to that Kansas doctor who was shot. Women aborting at 8 months are not aborting healthy babies.
| 241 |
celticdragon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:53:29pm |
re: #229 SanFranciscoZionist
But their costumes were designed by Michaelangelo!
(There's a cool scene in one of Robert Tannenbaum's thrillers where a member of the Swiss Guard decapitates a terrorist with his halberd on the altar of St. Patrick's Cathedral. Sadly, Tannenbaum's quality has been going down, but that scene was to die for.)
That would be tres' kewl.
| 242 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:53:39pm |
re: #231 ProLifeLiberal
I guess I'm Pro-Life because of Religion (I'm Baptist) as odd as it may sound. I believe birth control is a great way to lower abortion, so it should be used far more often. Of course this requires insurance companies to cover it, and I've heard issues regarding this. I personally believe that when the embryo implants, it can no longer be touched. However, the Abortion should still be allowed for health of mother (obvious reasons), rape (to prevent any more mental damage to women), and incest (same as before).
re: #177 Max D. Reinhardt
It's interesting to me because I like seeing where various groups of people live and cluster together. It's an odd quirk of mine.
So you disagree with abortion because you believe the Fetus deserves all the same rights as a human being once it implants?
| 243 |
brookly red Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:53:56pm |
re: #232 HappyWarrior
Speaking of groups like ANSWER. The BBC had a real good audio documentary today about the "useful idiots", the people who defended Stalin. Found that fascinating. If anyone wants a link, I'll provide.
no, better not to go there...
| 244 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:54:21pm |
re: #232 HappyWarrior
Speaking of groups like ANSWER. The BBC had a real good audio documentary today about the "useful idiots", the people who defended Stalin. Found that fascinating. If anyone wants a link, I'll provide.
One of the reasons I love Emma Goldman--when she saw the Soviet Union was going to shit, she said so.
The other American leftists hated her for it. She didn't back down.
| 245 |
celticdragon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:55:02pm |
re: #240 EmmmieG
I never could understand why a woman would have an abortion at 8 months. I mean, one more week and any doctor out there will induce if you ask, and then you can just give the baby away, and people like me will think you are a hero.
Then I went and read the testimonials to that Kansas doctor who was shot. Women aborting at 8 months are not aborting healthy babies.
Exactly. Abortions at that time frame are nearly always from desperation and fatal birth defects.
| 246 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:55:10pm |
re: #234 Aceofwhat?
i mean that abortion at the 8th month and abortion at the 6th week are very, very different scenarios. in one scenario, the theoretical person has been supported for 8 months. follow?
Yes I follow.
But I also think that particular point is so illogical/unlikely that we can safely discard it.
Tell you what, how about we agree that a woman can get an "abortion" at the 8th month in the sense that she can have the child removed from her womb and put on life support at a hospital before its eventually sent to an orphanage hospital at the state's expense?
| 247 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:55:52pm |
re: #238 CarleeCork
They had 'choice', that's the debate dear.
Well, yes, but mentioning them by name doesn't score any particular points. The implication, unless I misread it, was that the restrictions the politicians demand would not apply to their own families.
| 248 |
TheMatrix31 Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:56:24pm |
Alright, well, since Seinfeld entertains me more than politics, I'm off to watch.
Later.
| 249 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:56:45pm |
re: #246 jamesfirecat
Yes I follow.
But I also think that particular point is so illogical/unlikely that we can safely discard it.
Tell you what, how about we agree that a woman can get an "abortion" at the 8th month in the sense that she can have the child removed from her womb and put on life support at a hospital before its eventually sent to an orphanage hospital at the state's expense?
8 months is not life support. I've had three preemie nieces and nephews. 8 months is doing great.
| 250 |
CarleeCork Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:57:05pm |
re: #234 Aceofwhat?
i mean that abortion at the 8th month and abortion at the 6th week are very, very different scenarios. in one scenario, the theoretical person has been supported for 8 months. follow?
Does anyone really think a woman gets up one morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I forgot to get that abortion?"
A woman gets an abortion in her eighth month because something is wrong.
| 251 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:57:15pm |
re: #244 SanFranciscoZionist
One of the reasons I love Emma Goldman--when she saw the Soviet Union was going to shit, she said so.
The other American leftists hated her for it. She didn't back down.
Did it pre Lenin's death I see.
| 252 |
Irenicum Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:57:19pm |
A word about abortion and then I need to get some sleep. I'm a man, that therefore I know it means in some people's eyes I have no right to speak. Yet I do. I was born as a defective child. In more recent times I would have easily been considered an "at risk" pregnancy. Hell, I was even then. The rationale offered by many pro choice rights advocates is that some lives are just too tough to live. No they're not. My second lesson came from working for several years with the severely developmentally disabled population. I still miss that work. I learned more of what it meant to be human through my friends who are challenged in that way than I have in any other work. Every single life is valuable, every single life. And lastly, I have a family relation who had a child through rape. It wasn't forced on her to do so. Nor should it have been. But she saw that even though she had been violated, the life produced was not at fault. She chose to go through with the pregnancy and give the little girl up for adoption, knowing she couldn't raise her well. I have a beautiful relative living a good life out west because of that decision who I will never know. She could make a major difference in this world because of that choice by my relative. She may not. Should that make a difference? No, it shouldn't. Since every life is important, no matter the outcome.
| 253 |
ProGunLiberal Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:57:27pm |
re: #242 jamesfirecat
Yes, exactly. However, Birth Control must be widely available to near everybody. I'm not exactly sure if the health-care bill fixed the issue of Health Insurance companies cover birth-control pills and the like. Does anyone know on this?
| 254 |
celticdragon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:58:19pm |
re: #250 CarleeCork
Does anyone really think a woman gets up one morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I forgot to get that abortion?"
A woman gets an abortion in her eighth month because something is wrong.
Not just wrong. Catastrophically wrong.
| 255 |
brookly red Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:58:35pm |
re: #247 SanFranciscoZionist
Well, yes, but mentioning them by name doesn't score any particular points. The implication, unless I misread it, was that the restrictions the politicians demand would not apply to their own families.
yes, conservatives support privacy for sure.
| 256 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:58:43pm |
re: #249 EmmmieG
8 months is not life support. I've had three preemie nieces and nephews. 8 months is doing great.
Then in that case they should just be sent to the orphanage/whatever it is we do with children who are put up for adoption when they're born. (This part of the debate I admit I am not aware of)
The woman should at any time have the right to deny the fetus access to her organs, but in doing so she should surrender it unto the state that should do what it can/feels it should do in order to keep it alive if possible.
| 257 |
boxhead Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:59:44pm |
re: #231 ProLifeLiberal
I guess I'm Pro-Life because of Religion (I'm Baptist) as odd as it may sound. I believe birth control is a great way to lower abortion, so it should be used far more often. Of course this requires insurance companies to cover it, and I've heard issues regarding this. I personally believe that when the embryo implants, it can no longer be touched. However, the Abortion should still be allowed for health of mother (obvious reasons), rape (to prevent any more mental damage to women), and incest (same as before).
re: #177 Max D. Reinhardt
It's interesting to me because I like seeing where various groups of people live and cluster together. It's an odd quirk of mine.
i am trying to recall the quote I read from Saint Thomas Aquinas about this subject. Paraphrased he said that once the fetus quickens, then it is a life. By quicken he meant heart beat and such. Roughly after the first trimester.
Being a male I feel I am not qualified to judge this.
| 258 |
Kruk Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:59:46pm |
re: #186 SanFranciscoZionist
It is. As I say, there's reasons I don't entirely embrace this argument enough to use it.
I wouldn't go so far as "consume", but there are definite health costs for women from even a normal pregnancy. One of the reasons women are more prone to osteoporosis is that calcium is taken from the bones during pregnacy, and the risk increases with the number of pregnancies.
| 259 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 9:59:52pm |
re: #240 EmmmieG
Women aborting at 8 months are not aborting healthy babies.
I don't really think that they are, either. I'm simply trying to show James that his analogy doesn't extend to the whole spectrum of the issue, especially the most visceral part.
To challenge the least visceral part, the part earliest in the pregnancy, I think that fertility clinics have tremendous potential as a logical tool to challenge the inconsistency that plagues most extreme anti-abortion positions.
| 260 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:00:04pm |
re: #240 EmmmieG
I never could understand why a woman would have an abortion at 8 months. I mean, one more week and any doctor out there will induce if you ask, and then you can just give the baby away, and people like me will think you are a hero.
Then I went and read the testimonials to that Kansas doctor who was shot. Women aborting at 8 months are not aborting healthy babies.
The stories out there are heartbreaking, and awful.
And folks will still stand up in cold blood and insist there is NEVER a medical reason for a late-term abortion.
| 261 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:00:16pm |
re: #256 jamesfirecat
Then in that case they should just be sent to the orphanage/whatever it is we do with children who are put up for adoption when they're born. (This part of the debate I admit I am not aware of)
The woman should at any time have the right to deny the fetus access to her organs, but in doing so she should surrender it unto the state that should do what it can/feels it should do in order to keep it alive if possible.
Foster homes. And a healthy infant is adopted in no time at all. Half that, if the kid is white. (Sad, but true.)
| 262 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:00:51pm |
Instadouche cheers for whitey....
POSTRACIAL AMERICA: “The former longtime mayor of Memphis, who unabashedly campaigned for voters to send him to Congress because he is black, was overwhelmingly defeated by the white incumbent in today’s 9th District Democratic primary.”Posted at 12:14 am by Glenn Reynolds
| 263 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:00:56pm |
These rabid anti abortion people remind me of the kids I grew up with who used to brag about harassing people at abortion clinics. Abortion is such a complicated issue. I disagree with those who suggest all opponents of it hate women but I equally disagree with those who demonize women who make that decision. I'd have much more respect for the pro life political side if they actually gave a goddamn about helping poor mothers after they were born.
| 264 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:01:02pm |
re: #253 ProLifeLiberal
Yes, exactly. However, Birth Control must be widely available to near everybody. I'm not exactly sure if the health-care bill fixed the issue of Health Insurance companies cover birth-control pills and the like. Does anyone know on this?
What if I were to make an argument to you, that even if we afford the fetus the same rights as a living breathing human being, it'd be possible for abortion not to be murder?
Would that make you change your mind on how you feel about abortion?
(Though I'll admit it would be a bit awkward for you here at LGF since in retrospect it might merrit creating a new account... I say jokingly)
| 265 |
celticdragon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:01:13pm |
re: #256 jamesfirecat
Then in that case they should just be sent to the orphanage/whatever it is we do with children who are put up for adoption when they're born. (This part of the debate I admit I am not aware of)
The woman should at any time have the right to deny the fetus access to her organs, but in doing so she should surrender it unto the state that should do what it can/feels it should do in order to keep it alive if possible.
As mentioned elsewhere, when women abort at 8 months they have already bonded with the baby and have found out that something is dreadfully wrong with the pregnancy...as in fatally wrong.
| 266 |
CarleeCork Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:01:25pm |
re: #252 Irenicum
A woman should always have the choice. We must never go back to abortion wards and deaths for lack of choice.
The woman's life should come first.
| 267 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:02:18pm |
| 268 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:02:34pm |
re: #246 jamesfirecat
Yes I follow.
But I also think that particular point is so illogical/unlikely that we can safely discard it.
Tell you what, how about we agree that a woman can get an "abortion" at the 8th month in the sense that she can have the child removed from her womb and put on life support at a hospital before its eventually sent to an orphanage hospital at the state's expense?
sure...but then wouldn't you want to use an analogy that focused mainly on your point, which is that at the beginning, it's just a clump of cells whose state ought to be up to the decision of the host?
| 269 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:03:40pm |
re: #265 celticdragon
As mentioned elsewhere, when women abort at 8 months they have already bonded with the baby and have found out that something is dreadfully wrong with the pregnancy...as in fatally wrong.
Yeah that's part of my point int hat I can't at the moment conceive of the idea of a woman who decides at 8 months along that she suddenly isn't fit/doesn't want to be a mother so she wants an abortion...
However its important to have a philosophy that covers even the unlikely events, so therefore I wrote out what I think mine would suggest/ what I want mine to suggest doing in that particular situation...
| 270 |
Kruk Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:03:58pm |
re: #245 celticdragon
Exactly. Abortions at that time frame are nearly always from desperation and fatal birth defects.
Not if you believe the wingnuts. They tend to run with the "woman has an argument with her boyfriend and aborts a perfectly viable 8 month baby" story.
| 271 |
ProGunLiberal Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:04:16pm |
re: #264 jamesfirecat
I would be willing to listen to your line of thought.
| 272 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:04:19pm |
I saw a study once, and no I can't find it (you try googling on "study" and "abortion," I dare you), that some majority number of women who abort do so because they have no support, in fact the reverse.
If we are truly to lower the abortion numbers, we could start there. Start with the women who feel alone and abandoned in their pregnancies.
No, that would be too bipartisan. Let's fight.
| 273 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:05:07pm |
re: #268 Aceofwhat?
sure...but then wouldn't you want to use an analogy that focused mainly on your point, which is that at the beginning, it's just a clump of cells whose state ought to be up to the decision of the host?
No, because I feel that I can make the strongest argument possibly by doing a "reverse strawman" in that I take my opponents argument and attack it at its strongest and still tear it down, showing that "even if we grant your idea that a fetus deserves all the same rights as a fully grown person, here is why abortion should still be legal..." Then it can lead to a much more dramatic conclusion to the argument.
| 274 |
celticdragon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:05:14pm |
re: #260 SanFranciscoZionist
The stories out there are heartbreaking, and awful.
And folks will still stand up in cold blood and insist there is NEVER a medical reason for a late-term abortion.
Yep. I have read testimonials from prolife families who talked about their brave decision to give birth to children with dreadfully fatal conditions...and then talk about what a blessing it was to spend an hour with a daughter (in excrutiating pain she could not undertstand) before they "gave her back to God".
Then they want to force that on everybody else.
It's a blessing, you see.
I was so horrified and enraged I started crying.
| 275 |
brookly red Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:06:14pm |
well I beat the odds at 17 million to 1 and have a private sector job interview tomorrow... so good night good folk.
| 276 |
ProGunLiberal Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:06:22pm |
re: #272 EmmmieG
I like this idea. It's something people can do.
| 277 |
Kruk Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:07:39pm |
re: #275 brookly red
well I beat the odds at 17 million to 1 and have a private sector job interview tomorrow... so good night good folk.
All the best, mate.
| 278 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:07:52pm |
re: #258 Kruk
One of the reasons women are more prone to osteoporosis is that calcium is taken from the bones during pregnacy, and the risk increases with the number of pregnancies.
that is wholly false, as far as i know. do you have any reliable citations? besides having lower bone density than men in general, osteoporosis is a risk of the dramatic decrease in estrogen production after menopause, a risk which may be magnified in women who started their periods later in life or had their ovaries removed.
it's very estrogen-related. not pregnancy-related.
| 279 |
celticdragon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:08:12pm |
re: #275 brookly red
well I beat the odds at 17 million to 1 and have a private sector job interview tomorrow... so good night good folk.
Break a leg. :)
My upding button is not working, so I will be joining Dark Falcon at Adeptus Mechanicus penance tommorrow.
| 280 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:08:58pm |
re: #271 ProLifeLiberal
I would be willing to listen to your line of thought.
Okay take a look at this...
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
To give you the long and short of it, lets give you that a fetus has all the same rights as a fully grown human being.
Does a fully grown human being have the right to make use of another human beings organs without their agreement?
If we say no, then how can abortion be unjustifed since its simply the mother refusing to let the child make use of her organs, and while it is sad that the child dies, the mother hasn't done anything morally or legally wrong. The mother might do something morally wonderful or grand if she lets the child use her organs, but she is in no way obligated to do so.
If we say yes.... this opens the door to a number of unpleasant situations concerning how we don't actually own things if other people can't survive without them.....
See how the argument works?
| 281 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:09:25pm |
re: #273 jamesfirecat
No, because I feel that I can make the strongest argument possibly by doing a "reverse strawman" in that I take my opponents argument and attack it at its strongest and still tear it down, showing that "even if we grant your idea that a fetus deserves all the same rights as a fully grown person, here is why abortion should still be legal..." Then it can lead to a much more dramatic conclusion to the argument.
alrighty. i might leave the organ sharing/consuming bit out of your attack, then.
| 282 |
brookly red Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:09:32pm |
re: #279 celticdragon
Break a leg. :)
My upding button is not working, so I will be joining Dark Falcon at Adeptus Mechanicus penance tommorrow.
I did break a leg... that is why they have an opening.
| 283 |
CarleeCork Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:10:03pm |
re: #274 celticdragon
Yep. I have read testimonials from prolife families who talked about their brave decision to give birth to children with dreadfully fatal conditions...and then talk about what a blessing it was to spend an hour with a daughter (in excrutiating pain she could not undertstand) before they "gave her back to God".
Then they want to force that on everybody else.
It's a blessing, you see.
I was so horrified and enraged I started crying.
'Blessing' has become the most abused word in the English language. People used to take deformed babies to the river and drown them.
Full disclosure, I gave birth to a handicapped child at six months in 1978.
| 284 |
celticdragon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:10:08pm |
| 285 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:10:42pm |
re: #262 Killgore Trout
Instadouche cheers for whitey...
To be fair, Killgore, the man did run saying black people should vote for him because he is black. Obama had actually endorse Cohen, the white (and I think Jewish) incumbent. For once, Glen Reynolds is actually not spouting craziness.
| 286 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:10:47pm |
re: #281 Aceofwhat?
alrighty. i might leave the organ sharing/consuming bit out of your attack, then.
Umm... if we take the organ sharing bit out of the attack, then there is no attack.
The attack is all about how people's organs are sacrosanct and thus other people can't lay claim to them, even if those other people would die without them.
You're asking me to leave the Bacon Lettuce and Tomato out of a BLT....
| 287 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:12:56pm |
re: #280 jamesfirecat
yeaaah...i'd go with fertility clinics. but you do what you gotta do, Chat de Feu...
| 288 |
celticdragon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:13:35pm |
re: #283 CarleeCork
'Blessing' has become the most abused word in the English language. People used to take deformed babies to the river and drown them.
Full disclosure, I gave birth to a handicapped child at six months in 1978.
My spouse has moderate cerebral palsey. Our son has autism. I know what it can be like and what strength you must have.
| 289 |
Irenicum Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:13:56pm |
re: #266 CarleeCork
I agree. If there's a danger involved of one life causing the life of the other, the mother wins. The Torah even agrees on that. But it doesn't then lead to any fetus being expendable for any excuse. That's my point.
| 290 |
CarleeCork Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:15:03pm |
re: #289 Irenicum
I agree. If there's a danger involved of one life causing the life of the other, the mother wins. The Torah even agrees on that. But it doesn't then lead to any fetus being expendable for any excuse. That's my point.
How about rape? Incest?
| 291 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:15:29pm |
re: #286 jamesfirecat
Umm... if we take the organ sharing bit out of the attack, then there is no attack.
The attack is all about how people's organs are sacrosanct and thus other people can't lay claim to them, even if those other people would die without them.
You're asking me to leave the Bacon Lettuce and Tomato out of a BLT...
But instead of shredding my argument 'where it was the strongest', you essentially agreed with me. Just sayin'. Agreement can be charming and disarming, and then when you have them feeling warm, you go for the logic choke hold.
| 292 |
Irenicum Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:16:47pm |
I know this is an exceptionally emotional issue. I just believe that every life, especially the most vulnerable, need to be protected. That's my liberal side coming out I guess. And no, I'm not kidding on that.
| 293 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:17:36pm |
re: #290 CarleeCork
How about rape? Incest?
Mind you, he didn't say "no fetus can be harmed for any reason", but "you can't just harm any fetus for any old reason".
Big difference...
| 294 |
celticdragon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:18:13pm |
re: #290 CarleeCork
How about rape? Incest?
Not according to our favorite Nevada tea party candidate!~
Ya gots to make lemonade outa lemons, especially if you are a 13 year old rape victim!
Remember: it's a blessing...
/////
| 295 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:18:24pm |
re: #291 Aceofwhat?
But instead of shredding my argument 'where it was the strongest', you essentially agreed with me. Just sayin'. Agreement can be charming and disarming, and then when you have them feeling warm, you go for the logic choke hold.
Your argument was that we ought to preserve the right of 8 month old children.
I can agree with you on that front without giving up a woman's ability to get the child removed from her in a timely manner whenever she wants....
| 296 |
palomino Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:18:58pm |
Sometimes political parties moderate after consecutive bad losses. Think gop after 1964, or dems after 1984.
But the gop has decided that moving much farther to the right is the answer. Long run it's an idiotic strategy, but the few pragmatists left in the party aren't even taken seriously, so they can't influence things.
The gop will gain seats in 2010 for reasons that have little to do with this rightward push. But this is hardly an indicator that the party is healthy or resurgent. Bottom line: urbanization, time and demographics are not on the gop's side. Indeed, the party is doing nothing to ameliorate these disadvantages; instead they are self-destructively exacerbating them.
| 297 |
Irenicum Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:19:00pm |
re: #290 CarleeCork
In those cases, I believe it should be the woman's choice, even though I believe the life involved is an innocent victim of sexual violence. It's a terrible dilemma. Two innocents have been violated.
| 298 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:19:19pm |
re: #294 celticdragon
Not according to our favorite Nevada tea party candidate!~
Ya gots to make lemonade outa lemons, especially if you are a 13 year old rape victim!
Remember: it's a blessing...
///
Seriously, that's the best answer she has is a tired cliche phrase.
| 299 |
blueraven Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:19:22pm |
re: #183 Dark_Falcon
And everyone please do note that no one in my extended family voted for Brady in the primary (I myself voted for Andy McKenna). But the non-socon GOP vote split among three candidates while the socons rallied around Brady. He won a close primary. After it was over, my best friend and I examined the situation and found that even though we don't agree with Brady's social positions his honesty, the fact that he'd rather cut spending and waste than raise taxes, and the fact that he's not in thrall to the Machine makes him a the better choice for Illinois.
What spending is he gonna cut? Just be sure he wont increase spending on dumbass things like making every woman have an ultrasound before an abortion.
Or, sign an executive order like our Gov Perry did, requiring every school age girl from age 9 and up to take a vaccine for STDs. Luckily he he was shot down by the state legislature on that one.
| 300 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:19:58pm |
re: #295 jamesfirecat
Your argument was that we ought to preserve the right of 8 month old children.
I can agree with you on that front without giving up a woman's ability to get the child removed from her in a timely manner whenever she wants...
Removed ≠ aborted. That's where your organ-sharing thing goes hinky.
| 301 |
lostlakehiker Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:20:35pm |
Maddow lies when she says in this clip that Rand Paul thinks that better education of rapists in family planning is the answer to the problem of pregnancies imposed on a woman by a rapist.
His own quote from a few seconds earlier in the piece is actually saying that better education of women in the uses of the day after pill, a part of family planning, would do the trick for most rape victims.
Not that this position is anything for Rand to be proud of. But it's materially different from the position Rachel says he's taking.
She has a pretty good case already. But she has to make it better. Even tone of voice, straight practical demeanor, but the same old demagogic exaggeration and putting words in the mouths of others that we see all too often from RW TV and radio rabble rousers. She's good, gotta give her that.
| 302 |
CarleeCork Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:20:56pm |
re: #293 Aceofwhat?
Mind you, he didn't say "no fetus can be harmed for any reason", but "you can't just harm any fetus for any old reason".
Big difference...
A woman might lie. Will we hook them up to a lie detector to see if they were really raped?
I really do understand what you're saying. I don't think abortion should be used as birth control. I just don't want to see us go backwards with respect to a woman's right to control her body.
| 303 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:21:11pm |
| 304 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:23:02pm |
re: #300 Aceofwhat?
Removed ≠ aborted. That's where your organ-sharing thing goes hinky.
I give you that.
So I moderate my stance slightly.
If the child can survive on its own or with the help of machines then at the cost of the machines it should be kept alive and eventually sent to foster home just as if she had wanted to give it up after it was born.
If it can't be kept alive, then it should be left to die, which is cold, but the only logical way we can handle this particular matter.
No one should ever be forced to LET someone else take advantage of their organs against their will....
| 305 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:23:05pm |
re: #302 CarleeCork
A woman might lie. Will we hook them up to a lie detector to see if they were really raped?
In my own humble opinion? No. We ought to take someone's word for that. I think that lying on this topic carries its own...burdens. But i'm more moderate than most conservatives on this position. Hell, on most any position, who am i kidding;)
| 306 |
lostlakehiker Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:24:08pm |
re: #264 jamesfirecat
What if I were to make an argument to you, that even if we afford the fetus the same rights as a living breathing human being, it'd be possible for abortion not to be murder?
Would that make you change your mind on how you feel about abortion?
(Though I'll admit it would be a bit awkward for you here at LGF since in retrospect it might merrit creating a new account... I say jokingly)
Of course it would be possible. Analogy: overcrowded lifeboat---a boat with two passengers that will sink unless one person gets out. If neither will get out voluntarily, and if rock-paper-scissors cannot settle the matter, then whoever wins the fight has not committed murder, but simply settled an impossible situation in his own favor.
And if one volunteers to get out, that's not suicide, for that matter.
| 307 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:24:38pm |
re: #301 lostlakehiker
Maddow lies when she says in this clip that Rand Paul thinks that better education of rapists in family planning is the answer to the problem of pregnancies imposed on a woman by a rapist.
His own quote from a few seconds earlier in the piece is actually saying that better education of women in the uses of the day after pill, a part of family planning, would do the trick for most rape victims.
Not that this position is anything for Rand to be proud of. But it's materially different from the position Rachel says he's taking.
She has a pretty good case already. But she has to make it better. Even tone of voice, straight practical demeanor, but the same old demagogic exaggeration and putting words in the mouths of others that we see all too often from RW TV and radio rabble rousers. She's good, gotta give her that.
Maybe if the People at Rand Paul's organization had... I don't know... . CALLED HER BACK, Rand could have corrected her over her mistake that she asked them about to see if she was mistaken as in this case she was....
| 308 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:24:38pm |
I have made the rather stupid mistake of allowing people in the condo to find out I was a licensed electrician. Sigh, So now not only am I responsible for mom and dad I also am "on call" for problems with their kitchen appliances, air conditioners, and also now their automobiles...
"My brake lights won't go off" well gee, thank you for telling me that at 12:45am while I was laying in bed reading and trying to nod off. (Yes I went out there and disconnected her battery, and yes I have to go back out there at 8:30am or so and reconnect it.)
I have been to three different units (one unit twice) here in the last two months when their A.C.'s quit because their condensate drains were plugged up and the float switch had turned their unit off.
Hmm...service call from a reputable A.C. company $75.00 for the first half hour, plus parts if any. Service call from the idiot in your building willing to try to help you out $0.00. Don't get me wrong, if they tried to pay me or tip me I would refuse it, but so far no one has even tried...and that kinda has me pissed off.
| 309 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:25:13pm |
re: #304 jamesfirecat
I give you that.
So I moderate my stance slightly.
If the child can survive on its own or with the help of machines then at the cost of the machines it should be kept alive and eventually sent to foster home just as if she had wanted to give it up after it was born.
If it can't be kept alive, then it should be left to die, which is cold, but the only logical way we can handle this particular matter.
No one should ever be forced to LET someone else take advantage of their organs against their will...
And if we don't really have a problem with women running around aborting viable fetuses for reasons of birth control, then you really just want to highlight and nurture the part of someone's intellect that has already resigned itself to fertility clinics. Do that, and you'll have actually converted someone on this topic - no mean feat.
| 310 |
blueraven Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:25:19pm |
re: #303 Aceofwhat?
In Illinois? Is that a serious question?
Yes, its serious. I didn't say spending shouldn't be cut, but so many claim they will cut spending but wont be specific. Just curious what his ideas are for balancing the budget.
| 311 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:25:24pm |
The problem with the anti abortion political movement is they seem hellbent on harassing women who choose to get abortions. It was Oklahoma I believe I read here that had a bill that would allow the government access to the records of the women who had abortions in that state. Irony is you know the same people who proposed that probably think Obama's a tyrant.
| 312 |
CarleeCork Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:25:27pm |
re: #305 Aceofwhat?
Can we just agree that proper sex education and birth control information is the best answer?
| 313 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:26:27pm |
re: #275 brookly red
well I beat the odds at 17 million to 1 and have a private sector job interview tomorrow... so good night good folk.
Mazal tov. Knock 'em dead.
| 314 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:27:08pm |
re: #312 CarleeCork
Can we just agree that proper sex education and birth control information is the best answer?
Encouraging abstinence while ensuring proper sex ed / birth control information is the best answer, you say? I agree!
| 315 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:27:19pm |
re: #308 ausador
I have made the rather stupid mistake of allowing people in the condo to find out I was a licensed electrician. Sigh, So now not only am I responsible for mom and dad I also am "on call" for problems with their kitchen appliances, air conditioners, and also now their automobiles...
"My brake lights won't go off" well gee, thank you for telling me that at 12:45am while I was laying in bed reading and trying to nod off. (Yes I went out there and disconnected her battery, and yes I have to go back out there at 8:30am or so and reconnect it.)
I have been to three different units (one unit twice) here in the last two months when their A.C.'s quit because their condensate drains were plugged up and the float switch had turned their unit off.
Hmm...service call from a reputable A.C. company $75.00 for the first half hour, plus parts if any. Service call from the idiot in your building willing to try to help you out $0.00. Don't get me wrong, if they tried to pay me or tip me I would refuse it, but so far no one has even tried...and that kinda has me pissed off.
They owe you some help in return. A meal, or help with something they know something about.
| 316 |
celticdragon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:27:40pm |
Good night, Lizards. Off to The House and The Horseshoe tommorrow for re-enactment of the revolutionay War skirmish that happened at the actual house which is still standing (with bulleT holes!)
I get to shoot out of the actual windows that American militia fired out of.
Way too cool.
Talk on Monday :)
| 317 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:28:09pm |
re: #312 CarleeCork
Can we just agree that proper sex education and birth control information is the best answer?
That would make sense too. Too bad the religious right throws a shit fit everytime people suggest birth control and proper sex education be used in schools.
| 318 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:28:54pm |
re: #314 Aceofwhat?
Encouraging abstinence while ensuring proper sex ed / birth control information is the best answer, you say? I agree!
Lets start getting people WOW subscriptions and Laptops in high school.
That worked as such an effective anti-sex strategy for me well for me I didn't even figure out how to masturbate till I was a Junior in college!
| 320 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:29:13pm |
re: #310 blueraven
Yes, its serious. I didn't say spending shouldn't be cut, but so many claim they will cut spending but wont be specific. Just curious what his ideas are for balancing the budget.
DF would know specifically. I don't even think you have to go that far. This is a "thanks for Blagojevich, asswipes" vote, or it would be for me if i still lived in Chicago. That guy was a creep from day one; the Dems deserve to lose this election to my toy chihuahua.
| 321 |
Mocking Jay Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:29:22pm |
re: #318 jamesfirecat
Lets start getting people WOW subscriptions and Laptops in high school.
That worked as such an effective anti-sex strategy for me well for me I didn't even figure out how to masturbate till I was a Junior in college!
tmi
| 322 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:29:49pm |
re: #292 Irenicum
I know this is an exceptionally emotional issue. I just believe that every life, especially the most vulnerable, need to be protected. That's my liberal side coming out I guess. And no, I'm not kidding on that.
If "life," human life, in and of itself was important, then people would be up in arms over the worldwide scientific manufacture, use and destruction of HeLa cells. Personally, I need something more interesting and relevant, like sentience from an organism deserving of protection. Not just the potential for sentience, actual self awareness.
| 323 |
celticdragon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:29:57pm |
re: #318 jamesfirecat
Lets start getting people WOW subscriptions and Laptops in high school.
That worked as such an effective anti-sex strategy for me well for me I didn't even figure out how to masturbate till I was a Junior in college!
Daammnnn....
Game geek at a whole new level.
| 325 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:30:32pm |
re: #294 celticdragon
Not according to our favorite Nevada tea party candidate!~
Ya gots to make lemonade outa lemons, especially if you are a 13 year old rape victim!
Remember: it's a blessing...
///
This was the case that blew my mind in its complete lack of regard for the victim.
| 326 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:30:39pm |
re: #317 HappyWarrior
That would make sense too. Too bad the religious right throws a shit fit everytime people suggest birth control and proper sex education be used in schools.
Birth control should not be used in the schools. It should be used in the home.
If it's being used in the schools, they need to try closed-circuit cameras, or maybe just teacher patrols of the closets, or something.
| 327 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:32:20pm |
re: #314 Aceofwhat?
Encouraging abstinence while ensuring proper sex ed / birth control information is the best answer, you say? I agree!
Me too.
| 328 |
CarleeCork Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:33:23pm |
re: #317 HappyWarrior
That would make sense too. Too bad the religious right throws a shit fit everytime people suggest birth control and proper sex education be used in schools.
And it's too bad that some liberals pitch a fit every time abstinence is mentioned.
We would all be better off if we had actual conversations like most people here have.
This type of forum is the answer.
| 329 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:34:24pm |
re: #328 CarleeCork
And it's too bad that some liberals pitch a fit every time abstinence is mentioned.
We would all be better off if we had actual conversations like most people here have.
This type of forum is the answer.
I think abstinence should be encouraged but abstinence only education I think is a bad idea for practical reasons.
| 330 |
CarleeCork Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:35:01pm |
re: #329 HappyWarrior
I think abstinence should be encouraged but abstinence only education I think is a bad idea for practical reasons.
Agreed.
| 331 |
ProGunLiberal Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:37:30pm |
re: #329 HappyWarrior
Agreed. I like this idea. And thank JamesFireCat for showing me that. It is interesting. However, that wasn't quite able to change me mind. Thank you for introducing me to the line of thought though.
| 332 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:37:38pm |
re: #329 HappyWarrior
I think abstinence should be encouraged but abstinence only education I think is a bad idea for practical reasons.
There's always the trunk monkey and his shotgun.
(This is a reference to a commercial.)
| 333 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:37:55pm |
re: #310 blueraven
Yes, its serious. I didn't say spending shouldn't be cut, but so many claim they will cut spending but wont be specific. Just curious what his ideas are for balancing the budget.
Well, start by looking at which positions within the state government are not needed, i.e. eliminating redundancy. Also better contracting practices to ensure the voters get a good price for contracted work, not an inflated "friend of a friend" contract.
| 334 |
JamesWI Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:39:57pm |
OT:
Looked over at HotAir, on their Christopher Hitchens thread. As a fellow atheist who has been recently diagnosed with a rather serious illness (though nowhere close to as dire as Hitch) I just have to say something about prayers:
Prayers wishing us well are just fine. I'm sure Hitch would say the same thing, as essentially they're just well-wishers. To the people who take that opportunity to pray that we come to Christ, or make comments about how "there are no atheists in a foxhole/cancer ward" or make some comment along the lines of Pascal's wager, I just have to say: Fuck you, you fucking assholes. Hoping that there is something nice after death doesn't make it true.
That is all
| 335 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:40:13pm |
re: #301 lostlakehiker
Maddow lies when she says in this clip that Rand Paul thinks that better education of rapists in family planning is the answer to the problem of pregnancies imposed on a woman by a rapist.
His own quote from a few seconds earlier in the piece is actually saying that better education of women in the uses of the day after pill, a part of family planning, would do the trick for most rape victims.
Not that this position is anything for Rand to be proud of. But it's materially different from the position Rachel says he's taking.
She has a pretty good case already. But she has to make it better. Even tone of voice, straight practical demeanor, but the same old demagogic exaggeration and putting words in the mouths of others that we see all too often from RW TV and radio rabble rousers. She's good, gotta give her that.
It's not that simple. "Family planning" is not a term I would use in the context of using the morning-after pill in a case of rape. Also, in cases of incest, or abuse of an under-age victim, access to or knowledge of emergency contraception is not only not assured, it's unlikely. So what Paul is proposing is very nice, in the case of an adult rape victim who is able to get to a pharmacy and get the morning-after pill expeditiously following her rape.
It would be nicer if he was not running as a Republican, given that his party has something of a reputation for rejecting both education about sex in public schools and, as it happens, the morning after pill.
| 336 |
Mocking Jay Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:42:23pm |
re: #334 JamesWI
OT:
Looked over at HotAir, on their Christopher Hitchens thread. As a fellow atheist who has been recently diagnosed with a rather serious illness (though nowhere close to as dire as Hitch) I just have to say something about prayers:
Prayers wishing us well are just fine. I'm sure Hitch would say the same thing, as essentially they're just well-wishers. To the people who take that opportunity to pray that we come to Christ, or make comments about how "there are no atheists in a foxhole/cancer ward" or make some comment along the lines of Pascal's wager, I just have to say: Fuck you, you fucking assholes. Hoping that there is something nice after death doesn't make it true.
That is all
Yeah, as an atheist I have no issues with prayer. It says something about the person doing it, to me. That they're willing to set aside a portion of their time to dwell on someone else's problems. I appreciate it.
| 337 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:43:34pm |
re: #334 JamesWI
Nor does denying God's existence negate Him.
| 338 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:46:10pm |
re: #331 ProLifeLiberal
Agreed. I like this idea. And thank JamesFireCat for showing me that. It is interesting. However, that wasn't quite able to change me mind. Thank you for introducing me to the line of thought though.
Glad I could help expand your mind.
Think it over and have a nights sleep on it, and let me know how reading it has changed your mind if you want to argue about it some more later on...
| 339 |
JamesWI Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:46:42pm |
re: #337 Dark_Falcon
Nor does denying God's existence negate Him.
And I respect your beliefs. But to take that opportunity, when someone is likely at one of the lowest points of their life, to make comments like "Better to believe and be wrong than to disbelieve and be wrong" or pray that they change their belief system simply due to the fact that they are faced with a terrible illness, is the lowest of the low, in my opinion.
| 340 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:49:25pm |
re: #339 JamesWI
And I respect your beliefs. But to take that opportunity, when someone is likely at one of the lowest points of their life, to make comments like "Better to believe and be wrong than to disbelieve and be wrong" or pray that they change their belief system simply due to the fact that they are faced with a terrible illness, is the lowest of the low, in my opinion.
Yeah it'd be the equivalent of an atheist coming up to a Christian who has just lost a loved one in a car crash and saying "you know if your god is really all knowing, and everything else, he would have saved her wouldn't he? I mean why would a being who wasn't malevolent or indifferent separate two people who love each other so much, hmmmm?"
Some situations are NOT THE TIME FOR MAKING A POLITICAL/RELIGIOUS STATEMENT as Jon Stewart pointed out.
| 341 |
CarleeCork Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:49:40pm |
re: #337 Dark_Falcon
Nor does denying God's existence negate Him.
I respect your belief.
Will you respect my lack of belief in God?
| 342 |
blueraven Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:51:46pm |
re: #333 Dark_Falcon
Well, start by looking at which positions within the state government are not needed, i.e. eliminating redundancy. Also better contracting practices to ensure the voters get a good price for contracted work, not an inflated "friend of a friend" contract.
Well I hope if he wins, he does all that DF. Seems to me though Illinois has had a problem with corruption from both parties for a long time. Wasn't Blago like the first Democratic Governor since the early 70s? And didnt the former Governor go to jail for something?
| 343 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:56:55pm |
| 344 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:59:06pm |
re: #334 JamesWI
OT:
Looked over at HotAir, on their Christopher Hitchens thread. As a fellow atheist who has been recently diagnosed with a rather serious illness (though nowhere close to as dire as Hitch) I just have to say something about prayers:
Prayers wishing us well are just fine. I'm sure Hitch would say the same thing, as essentially they're just well-wishers. To the people who take that opportunity to pray that we come to Christ, or make comments about how "there are no atheists in a foxhole/cancer ward" or make some comment along the lines of Pascal's wager, I just have to say: Fuck you, you fucking assholes. Hoping that there is something nice after death doesn't make it true.
That is all
Ehh, you have to give them a break, pretty much all of the "evangelical" Christians I know are suffering from such a hugh case of confirmation bias that they are essentially blind to any outside contradictions.
But of course they will still pray for you.... Image: 168h65k.png
| 346 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 10:59:42pm |
re: #342 blueraven
Well I hope if he wins, he does all that DF. Seems to me though Illinois has had a problem with corruption from both parties for a long time. Wasn't Blago like the first Democratic Governor since the early 70s? And didnt the former Governor go to jail for something?
Yes, that was George Ryan. He's still at Terre Haute, I believe.
| 347 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:03:00pm |
re: #342 blueraven
Well I hope if he wins, he does all that DF. Seems to me though Illinois has had a problem with corruption from both parties for a long time. Wasn't Blago like the first Democratic Governor since the early 70s? And didn't the former Governor go to jail for something?
Yes, George Ryan went to jail. But Jim Thompson and Jim Ryan were honest, and I do believe that Brady is similarly honest. The state's finances are in such dire shape that we simply cannot afford to keep the machine that cause the crisis in power. That is why am voting for Bill Brady: Because I believe that his problems with social issues are ultimately of secondary import. Reforming government is much more important and he is much more likely to pull that off than Pat Quinn.
Gotta go to bed. Goodnight, All.
| 348 |
Dan M. Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:04:10pm |
re: #262 Killgore Trout
Opposing a black candidate who wants you to vote for him because he's black is RAAACIST!
| 349 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:04:55pm |
re: #346 SanFranciscoZionist
Yes, that was George Ryan. He's still at Terre Haute, I believe.
He's actually incarcerated up in Wisconsin, I believe.
| 350 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:07:28pm |
| 351 |
Dan M. Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:10:13pm |
Social issues are absolutely a secondary issue with the person can have absolutely no effect upon them. Is the governor of Illinois really going to be able to restrict abortion by himself? Is Sharron Angle really going to have the power to eliminate abortion in the case of rape or incest as 1 of 100 and as a member of the minority party? No. Is she going to be able to ban pornography? No.
The real issue in that election is this: would you rather have Harry Reid or Chuck Schumer as Senate Majority Leader? Sharron Angle isn't going to make a difference one way or another. The Democrats are going to have the majority and Sharon Angle's vote isn't going to matter to advance any agenda of hers.
| 352 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:12:20pm |
re: #351 Dan M.
Social issues are absolutely a secondary issue with the person can have absolutely no effect upon them. Is the governor of Illinois really going to be able to restrict abortion by himself? Is Sharron Angle really going to have the power to eliminate abortion in the case of rape or incest as 1 of 100 and as a member of the minority party? No. Is she going to be able to ban pornography? No.
The real issue in that election is this: would you rather have Harry Reid or Chuck Schumer as Senate Majority Leader? Sharron Angle isn't going to make a difference one way or another. The Democrats are going to have the majority and Sharon Angle's vote isn't going to matter to advance any agenda of hers.
Yes, lets do whatever we can in our power to make sure Harry Reid the most balless man in Washington doesn't stay the leader of the Democratic Party in the Senate!
| 353 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:18:36pm |
re: #351 Dan M.
Social issues are absolutely a secondary issue with the person can have absolutely no effect upon them. Is the governor of Illinois really going to be able to restrict abortion by himself? Is Sharron Angle really going to have the power to eliminate abortion in the case of rape or incest as 1 of 100 and as a member of the minority party? No. Is she going to be able to ban pornography? No.
The real issue in that election is this: would you rather have Harry Reid or Chuck Schumer as Senate Majority Leader? Sharron Angle isn't going to make a difference one way or another. The Democrats are going to have the majority and Sharon Angle's vote isn't going to matter to advance any agenda of hers.
By the way also forgive me if I'm wrong but you seem to be a Republican.
With that in mind, hard cheese to you good sir, as your side started the culture war, you can't just declare a truce now that it seems like a lot of the things you're fighting for are no longer playing all that well with the voters.
The Democrats have every write to keep pounding the culture war drum now that the tide is turning as what was good for the goose is good for the gander.
///I say to you, we will not stop until every person in America spends their Christmas-Eve down at the homo-bortion-pot and commie jizz-porium!
(It's 2:18 AM where I am so take this post with a grain of salt...)
| 355 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:26:39pm |
re: #353 jamesfirecat
So that is sorta like a "Head-shop" only with 'jizz' and pink feather lined handcuffs too? :p
| 357 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:36:25pm |
| 358 |
Nimed Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:38:00pm |
re: #351 Dan M.
Social issues are absolutely a secondary issue with the person can have absolutely no effect upon them. Is the governor of Illinois really going to be able to restrict abortion by himself? Is Sharron Angle really going to have the power to eliminate abortion in the case of rape or incest as 1 of 100 and as a member of the minority party? No. Is she going to be able to ban pornography? No. The real issue in that election is this: would you rather have Harry Reid or Chuck Schumer as Senate Majority Leader? Sharron Angle isn't going to make a difference one way or another. The Democrats are going to have the majority and Sharon Angle's vote isn't going to matter to advance any agenda of hers.
Sharron Angle is crazy in a lot more than this issue. Putting that aside, the "she's just 1 Senator" is true enough for now, but Senate mandates last 3 election cycles. A lot can happen in 6 years and there's plenty of idiotic federal legislation regarding abortion (never mind other legislation that Angle would support) awaiting a GOP Senate majority.
As to the question of the next Senate Majority Leader, yeah, Schumer would probably be better (but let's not forget that Reid did pass HCR). But I fail to see how that is THE ISSUE in this election. The number of Senators in each side is far more important than who's the Majority Leader.
Finally, even if it's just for symbolic purposes, it's always nice when the number of crazies in the Senate doesn't increase.
| 359 |
Dan M. Thu, Aug 5, 2010 11:44:29pm |
re: #353 jamesfirecat
I don't care what partisans do. They're partisans. They just want to push whatever they think will give them an advantage. If Republicans want to pretend that there's no longer any culture war, they can do that because they're partisans. And if Democrats want to drum up the culture war, they can do so. No big deal. I simply expect reasonable people to make reasonably informed decisions. In this case I'm simply saying that Sharron Angle's position on abortion is largely irrelevant to the position she is running for, however, she might be largely irrelevant, anyway, so it might be advantageous for Republicans to just let her lose so we can keep Harry Reid as the Majority Leader, not so much because he's ineffective, but because he's s lot more trustworthy on gun issues than Chuck Schumer.
I don't know what it means to say that Republicans "started the culture war." There are so many aspects to the culture war that were justifiably started be anti-establishment types, and others that were started by people afraid of natural social change. To say that some of the things that I'm fighting for are out of fashion as if I have been fighting the culture war is largely mistaken.
| 361 |
windsagio Fri, Aug 6, 2010 12:09:32am |
re: #360 Nimed
Good!
The campaign is really amazing
almost no basic 'build a base, kill these expansions' misisons
| 362 |
windsagio Fri, Aug 6, 2010 12:09:47am |
re: #360 Nimed
Dammit probalyb missed you > was out getting eats
| 364 |
Nimed Fri, Aug 6, 2010 12:15:18am |
re: #361 windsagio
Good!
The campaign is really amazing
almost no basic 'build a base, kill these expansions' misisons
Oh, I didn't realize you were playing the campaign.
What's the campaign order? Who do you play first? I'm going to take a quick look at the new units.
| 365 |
pharmmajor Fri, Aug 6, 2010 12:16:13am |
Fuck them all. May none of them get a single vote this November.
| 366 |
windsagio Fri, Aug 6, 2010 12:18:42am |
re: #364 Nimed
Terran first, you don't have campaigns for the other 2 sides at all. That being said, there are 30 missions for just the side.
You can play all of them in MP tho'
Tons of weird single-only units too, altho' I suspect versions with them modded in weill be mad common soon enough.
| 368 |
Nimed Fri, Aug 6, 2010 12:26:08am |
re: #366 windsagio
Terran first, you don't have campaigns for the other 2 sides at all. That being said, there are 30 missions for just the side.
You can play all of them in MP tho'
Tons of weird single-only units too, altho' I suspect versions with them modded in weill be mad common soon enough.
I'm reading the wikipedia entry -- the campaign is non-linear and Jim Raynor comes back. Yay! A pity there's no 4th race, though.
Watching the intro in the Sc2 site.
| 369 |
freetoken Fri, Aug 6, 2010 12:38:40am |
| 372 |
freetoken Fri, Aug 6, 2010 1:25:42am |
| 373 |
windsagio Fri, Aug 6, 2010 1:26:23am |
re: #372 freetoken
You know, it was popular to diss bell bottoms for a while, but they're actually like super cool.
| 374 |
freetoken Fri, Aug 6, 2010 1:27:01am |
re: #373 windsagio
Yeah... but that top - it ought to be in a museum someplace.
| 375 |
windsagio Fri, Aug 6, 2010 1:40:18am |
re: #374 freetoken
Big woman, can't expect normal clothes :D
| 376 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Aug 6, 2010 1:49:21am |
re: #148 TheMatrix31
I hate Code Pink, ACORN, SEIU and I think Ron Paul can go fuck himself too.
hate liberal hate liberal hate liberal oh yeah and this guy that everyone on LGF hates, that guy too, got it
| 377 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Aug 6, 2010 1:51:08am |
| 378 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Aug 6, 2010 1:55:22am |
re: #108 Varek Raith
I figured as much.
Who cares if they're for bringing us back to the Dark Ages as long as I get my money.
And this my friends, is why I'm not a Republican. Because money is not the most important thing in my life.
| 379 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Aug 6, 2010 1:57:59am |
re: #70 goddamnedfrank
Weak sauce and hyperbolic bullshit. Illinois will survive, you vote the way you do because you think in terms of factions. You can't even personalize the Democratic candidate, it's all one big "machine" to you. Boo.
The game is an intoxicating game
| 382 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Aug 6, 2010 2:01:35am |
re: #381 windsagio
oh fuck yeah
| 383 |
boxhead Fri, Aug 6, 2010 2:02:31am |
re: #379 WindUpBird
The game is an intoxicating game
Game it may be to many, but the stakes are rather high for it to be a game.
| 384 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Aug 6, 2010 2:02:33am |
| 385 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Aug 6, 2010 2:03:43am |
re: #383 boxhead
Game it may be to many, but the stakes are rather high for it to be a game.
I was mostly referring to the game of people who have no power commenting on the scene, as opposed ot the real political thing :D
| 386 |
boxhead Fri, Aug 6, 2010 2:08:20am |
re: #385 WindUpBird
I was mostly referring to the game of people who have no power commenting on the scene, as opposed ot the real political thing :D
the people who comment with the aid of radio and TV do have power. and it is abused by many.
| 388 |
windsagio Fri, Aug 6, 2010 2:10:10am |
Elsewhere I'm debating whether Squirrel Girl will be in MvC3 >>
| 389 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Fri, Aug 6, 2010 3:28:55am |
Good Morning Lizards,
I have skimmed through most of this post and was worried at the outset that it would be a flame-fest.
I am happy and proud of this fine community that even on a topic such as abortion we can agree to disagree and have a (mostly) reasoned debate. I'm honored to be part of this group.
My position is similar to many, I am pro-life but feel abortion should remain legal. I would like to see it's use decrease, but mandatory ultrasounds aren't the way to achieve that. Access to birth control and family planning education are important. I'd also like to see more advertising/support for pregnancy crisis centers to help women find out options for adoption.
Irenicum, I thought you had the best post of the night. Thanks for sharing.
re: #252 Irenicum
Off to the salt lick.
| 390 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Aug 6, 2010 4:51:11am |
Good morning no one. I mean Honcos.
| 391 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:03:19am |
| 393 |
RogueOne Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:09:48am |
re: #392 Cannadian Club Akbar
Happens somewhere every year. I wonder if that butthole ever reads the news?
| 394 |
theheat Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:11:50am |
My rant machine is working overtime, and this is a long one, but I feel I need to say this to retain any semblance of sanity. (Two parts.)
Without any revolutionary ideas to contribute to solving problems, the GOP has focused on becoming a wall of solidarity where social issues are concerned. Before, I could go along for the ride and keep my feelings about social issues under my hat, and often pulled the lever for pols with -R next to their name.
I can't do that any more. I feel like I owe my fellow human beings more than that. One one hand, there's economics, and on the other there are very real human issues. While the GOP would like to pretend they are the cure for the nation's economic problems, despite a less than stellar track record the previous two terms, they have collectively decided to assert themselves all over the rights of individuals to supposedly correct the ills of society and put America "back on track."
If you're GLBT, you're defective, in spite of God's "perfect plan"; you don't share the same legal rights as heterosexuals. At best you might be tolerated, or your wretched and confused soul prayed for, but you shouldn't count on acceptance, nor shall you be treated as an equal legally or socially.
If you are a religious or ethnic minority, at best you will be treated with suspicion, and at worst blamed for the downfall of the entire country; discriminated against, and possibly find yourself on the receiving end of lethal violence. You are imperfect, a flaw, a boil on the ass of the baby-smooth buttocks of a country that be otherwise thriving, save for supporting your worthless kind. New age history will marginalize you, defame you, and conveniently attribute qualities to you and your kind that prove beyond any doubt you have little value as a human being. Not to mention, you are a constant source of wink wink insider jokes and impolite political cartoons, shared among the white Christian defenders of our great nation. Face it: You're shit.
If you care about the world around you, you are Satan's lap dog, a tree hugger, a bleeding heart. You've been blinded by science, and it's up to the people who leave the planet's future "in God's hands" to put things in perspective. Global warming, overpopulation, deforestation, environmental pollution - those are simply tools of Those Without Faith to make you cart your fat ass out to the recycle bin and buy really expensive light bulbs. Given the GOP's views on human rights, the animals of the world fare no better, and a cruel flavor of entitlement and dominionism prevails under the guise of "responsible management" by those godly salt-of-the-earthers that have the guts to make those "hard decisions" the bleeding hearts cannot. It's high time America stopped accommodating some obscure salamander or owl, and stopped crying about factory farming. It's time butch up, cut some damned trees, drill baby drill, and provide hardworking families with all the red meat they can consume. (And, BTW, screw that "wookie" black elitist Michelle Obama and her sissy liberal concerns about obesity, and just buy bigger clothes from Wal-Mart. Like, how hard is that?)
| 395 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:12:07am |
re: #393 RogueOne
Happens somewhere every year. I wonder if that butthole ever reads the news?
As far as I can read, she is safer then my local McDonalds, sanitation wise.
| 396 |
theheat Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:12:52am |
Rant, conclusion, part two of two.
If you're a women, you're doubly screwed. The GOP wants to limit your access to birth control, rescind legal abortion, and crawl up your snatch with instruments to demonstrate how they can best regulate your reproductive future. You're a whore if you like sex, and a bigger whore if you choose not to give birth. You should be married to a man, have sex, and have children, in that order. God's plan should be your plan, too, and since the GOP behaves as though they have a 1-800 line to God, they know what's best. Jesus loves all babies; the starving ones in underdeveloped impoverished countries, the severely handicapped ones, the ones with fatal birth defects, and the ones whose mothers die before giving birth. Above that, Jesus loves sperm, and they're all sacred. A rapist's sperm is no different than that of a loving husband, abusive boyfriend, or freaky relative; it's all precious. Possibly, God's greatest gift was allowing women to get pregnant, and you should rejoice, no matter. God's plan is perfect, so stop your whining and murdering, and make lemons out of lemonade, you selfish godless murderous bitches.
If you're poor, it's your own fault. You have no right to burden others with your poor planning, lack of earnest prayer to change your circumstances, not depositing enough in your weekly savings account, or the fact you missed attending that last Joel Osteen hallelujahfest. Don't look to your neighbor or government for a helping hand, or medical assistance, just shut the hell up, because the din of your whining has become annoying to the rest of us. Get your ass in church, get right with God, and watch your world turn around. Do I hear an Amen?
This isn't even the full socon agenda, and that's why it's so terrifying. We have been in the crosshairs of terrorism and economic collapse for so long, it's given the de-humanists an opportunity to railroad what is must basic: the rights of individuals. In my world view, we're all particles in a cosmic game of dodgeball. Besides food, clothing, and shelter, we also require compassion and curious minds to insure our very existence, yet the GOP collectively denies the latter.
The GOP is poised to assert itself all over my fellow Americans, and is doing so incrementally. So, no, it's no longer a case where I can ignore the social issues, and only concentrate on the economic. In every town across America there's an Angle, a Palin, a Bachmann, a Jindal, and Rand Paul, a Ron Paul, a Ken Buck, a Huckabee - voting for them only helps advance their oppressive social agenda. I have pulled the R lever for the last time. Humans of all stripes deserve better.
And with this, I must go to work...
| 399 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:22:56am |
re: #397 Gus 802
Good. The girl followed all of the rules involving heath concerns. Like I said in my #395, prolly better than the local McDonalds.
| 400 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:28:11am |
I don't like polls. But my local radio station is letting people on the air and 90% of them are idiots.
| 402 |
RogueOne Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:28:55am |
| 403 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:30:01am |
re: #399 Cannadian Club Akbar
Good. The girl followed all of the rules involving heath concerns. Like I said in my #395, prolly better than the local McDonalds.
Probably so. It's important to point out that this did not occur at some lonely street corner but at the North Alberta Street fair.
| 404 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:30:07am |
re: #402 RogueOne
"The inspector was just doing his job" was the quote I heard this morning.
It's fucking bullshit. I hate these people.
| 405 |
RogueOne Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:35:44am |
"unexpected" job loss last week. I don't think that word means what they think it means.
| 406 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:35:53am |
I have had my food handlers card for 24 years. Most of these gubment employees are idiots.
| 407 |
DaddyG Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:36:12am |
re: #399 Cannadian Club Akbar
Good. The girl followed all of the rules involving heath concerns. Like I said in my #395, prolly better than the local McDonalds.
Notice that even though the commissioner gave her a repreive there was still a health inspector bitching about the exception. That is what makes my job (state government customer service) difficult at times. For every 999 great helpful employees we have there is always 1 person that is in the buisiness of being an ass.
| 408 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:36:53am |
re: #405 RogueOne
"unexpected" job loss last week. I don't think that word means what they think it means.
It is a media word when they want to protect a President. MSM.
| 409 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:40:10am |
re: #408 Cannadian Club Akbar
It is a media word when they want to protect a President. MSM.
Fucking Douchebags.
| 410 |
DaddyG Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:40:19am |
The GOP is pandering their way right off the edge of the cliff.
While all political campaigns tend to move outward towards their base during the primaries and back to the center line during the general election at least the candidates stay somewhere on the road. These nuts have left the pavement and are fixing to leave the planet.
Like I said yesterday - I am now officially a moderate.
| 411 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:44:01am |
131,000 Jobs lost in July. STIMULUS!!!
| 412 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:45:16am |
re: #407 DaddyG
Notice that even though the commissioner gave her a repreive there was still a health inspector bitching about the exception. That is what makes my job (state government customer service) difficult at times. For every 999 great helpful employees we have there is always 1 person that is in the buisiness of being an ass.
And the public will very often base their opinion about gubmint workers on the attitude of the one ass.
| 413 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:45:29am |
Well, Christina Romer is leaving. Of course if she's replaced by another clone that won't help. Good to see Peter Orszag is going as well.
| 414 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:46:34am |
I think the guy one my radio is on a Lemon714. Idiot.
| 415 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:48:14am |
re: #400 Cannadian Club Akbar
I don't like polls. But my local radio station is letting people on the air and 90% of them are idiots.
“The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.”
Winston Churchill
| 416 |
Taqyia2Me Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:48:59am |
re: #411 Cannadian Club Akbar
131,000 Jobs lost in July. STIMULUS!!!
Wet firecracker from a wet fart of an administration/ruling class/DC elitists.
| 417 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:49:21am |
re: #415 rwdflynavy
“The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.”
Winston Churchill
Amen brother.
| 418 |
Varek Raith Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:49:30am |
My, you all sound so...
Elitist.
THAT'S MY JOB, PEASANTS!
/
| 420 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:51:58am |
re: #416 Taqyia2Me
Wet firecracker from a wet fart of an administration/ruling class/DC elitists.
But, but, we need to spend a trillion dollars so unemployment doesn't hit 8%.
/
| 421 |
RogueOne Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:52:55am |
Morning Joe has a spokesman from CAIR on discussing the NYC mosque. Dan Senor made the "you have the right, but is it prudent" argument, the same argument I hear a lot of people here make about free speech/2nd amendment rights. The rest of the panel, obviously all bigots, keep making the same argument. Zead Ramadan is the spokesman, he's doing a pretty good job.
| 422 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:58:20am |
A new girl that is on my radio got the most vile email. These people need a (deleted). Just sayin'.
| 423 |
Varek Raith Fri, Aug 6, 2010 5:59:48am |
re: #421 RogueOne
Morning Joe has a spokesman from CAIR on discussing the NYC mosque. Dan Senor made the "you have the right, but is it prudent" argument, the same argument I hear a lot of people here make about free speech/2nd amendment rights. The rest of the panel, obviously all bigots, keep making the same argument. Zead Ramadan is the spokesman, he's doing a pretty good job.
What does a Mosque have to do with 9/11?
| 424 |
RogueOne Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:01:32am |
re: #423 Varek Raith
What does a Mosque have to do with 9/11?
The CAIR spokesman said he understands why people would feel uneasy after 9/11 about building a mosque 1 1/2 blocks away. You'll have to ask him but he's obviously a bigot.
| 425 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:02:15am |
re: #423 Varek Raith
What does a Mosque have to do with 9/11?
Ask the people at the Al-Farook (sp?) Mosque in Brooklyn.
| 426 |
RogueOne Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:02:58am |
re: #423 Varek Raith
I was called a bigot by about a dozen posters the other day for having the audacity to suggest the neighborhood has the right to decide what businesses and properties are built in their own neighborhoods. I'll be on a bit of a bigot rant for awhile.
| 428 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:05:53am |
re: #425 Cannadian Club Akbar
Ask the people at the Al-Farook (sp?) Mosque in Brooklyn.
This is where Mohamed Atta prayed
| 429 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:07:48am |
I can't believe people that oppose Cordoba House. We're up shit creek with regards to the economy and these pukes have managed to make this a national issue. The same goes with abortion. I could give a rats ass about both. Let them build Cordoba House and abortions should remain legal.
| 430 |
Varek Raith Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:08:02am |
re: #428 Cannadian Club Akbar
This is where Mohamed Atta prayed
True.
So what does that have to do with this proposed Mosque?
| 431 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:08:46am |
| 432 |
Varek Raith Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:09:34am |
| 433 |
Taqyia2Me Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:10:44am |
re: #431 Cannadian Club Akbar
Nothing.
Muy dificile to convince the knee-jerkers of that, however...
| 434 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:10:56am |
re: #432 Varek Raith
Ok.
Sorry.
I'm just worked up over this 'issue'.
:/
A nuke can be built in my garage. Everyone needs to calm down.
| 435 |
Varek Raith Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:13:58am |
re: #434 Cannadian Club Akbar
A nuke can be built in my garage. Everyone needs to calm down.
PFFFTTT, I build planet busters in my basement.
:P
| 436 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:14:48am |
And FWIW, they are making fun of Birthers on Beck.
| 439 |
lawhawk Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:35:20am |
re: #435 Varek Raith
So, you're the one who took my Pu-36 explosive space modulator. Damn you.... damn you all to hell! /
| 440 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:42:13am |
re: #429 Gus 802
I can't believe people that oppose Cordoba House. We're up shit creek with regards to the economy and these pukes have managed to make this a national issue. The same goes with abortion. I could give a rats ass about both. Let them build Cordoba House and abortions should remain legal.
Fannie Mae Seeks $1.5 Billion From U.S. Treasury After 12th Straight Loss
| 441 |
JRCMYP Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:44:22am |
Listen, I haven't read all of the posts here. But honestly, if you believe abortion is morally wrong then of course you see it as wrong even in the case of rape or incest. In fact, I think the anti-abortion people who somehow think it's okay to abort in circumstances where the pregnancy was *no fault of the woman* are revealing the real reason that they don't want women to abort. If one is morally opposed to abortion, one is morally opposed to abortion in all instances. When a woman is raped and becomes pregnant, the resulting fetus is just as "innocent" as any other pregnancy, correct? I can understand the hard-line anti-abortion folks train of thought. I find misogynistic and possibly even racist the people who think making the choice to terminate is okay only if the pregnancy was forced upon a woman.
I'm pro-choice and find any government intrusion into my fertility, family planning or desire to carry a fetus to term unacceptable. I've said it before and I'll say it again, life changing personal decisions are only the business of the person living them out.
| 442 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:47:44am |
re: #440 Walter L. Newton
Fannie Mae Seeks $1.5 Billion From U.S. Treasury After 12th Straight Loss
Yeah, I saw that. I'm at my wits end here. Can't find any work and the only people calling up are my credit card companies. The unemployment figure of 9.5 percent is a low figure. It's higher than that since they only include people that are collecting unemployment insurance. I can't collect a single dime because I'm self employed and never payed unemployment insurance. Only had I been incorporated would I have done that.
Talked with a contractor I know yesterday. A lot of people he knows in the biz are going out of business. There's simply no work even with simple remodels. The same is true with architects and structural or civil engineers. It's been dead for almost 2 years now. This summer is a wash and it's almost over. Once we go into the end of September it will be dead until late January or beyond which is even true when the economy is doing well.
| 443 |
RadicalModerate Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:49:04am |
Rush Limbaugh on yesterday's radio show, in response to a caller advocating secession and/or civil war because she doesn't trust elections:
"This is a reasonable woman, she's talking about secession. Civil War. She is not alone. This is not the rantings of extreme kookism anymore. Minorities do not - if we give way to minorities... then minorities will rule, which is what we have by the way, and look where its taking us. We need revolution. We need secession...Some might say a civil war is already on"
He goes on to claim that this civil war was started by the left "years and years ago, and is just now intensifying."
| 444 |
lawhawk Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:55:28am |
Re: Ground Zero news - the Durst Organization has entered into a deal to handle Freedom Tower marketing/leasing and a 10% ownership stake for $100 million.
The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey approved the terms of a partnership deal with the Dursts on Thursday in which the family would pay $100 million for a roughly 10 percent stake in the $3.3 billion building. In the future, the Dursts’ investment could swell to $300 million.When the deal is complete, the Dursts will take over responsibility for leasing the tower, whose steel superstructure now rises 320 feet above street level, managing the property and dealing with construction of tenants’ spaces.
Earlier this week publishing giant Conde Nast was reported to be interested in 1 million sf at 1WTC/Freedom Tower beginning in 2014 when the tower should be ready and would be the largest tenant at the 1,776 foot skyscraper that has nearly 2.6 million sf of space.
| 445 |
garhighway Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:55:52am |
re: #442 Gus 802
Yeah, I saw that. I'm at my wits end here. Can't find any work and the only people calling up are my credit card companies. The unemployment figure of 9.5 percent is a low figure. It's higher than that since they only include people that are collecting unemployment insurance. I can't collect a single dime because I'm self employed and never payed unemployment insurance. Only had I been incorporated would I have done that.
Talked with a contractor I know yesterday. A lot of people he knows in the biz are going out of business. There's simply no work even with simple remodels. The same is true with architects and structural or civil engineers. It's been dead for almost 2 years now. This summer is a wash and it's almost over. Once we go into the end of September it will be dead until late January or beyond which is even true when the economy is doing well.
The corporate economist where I work projects that housing starts won't recover past 60% or so of their peak during this economic cycle. He also said that it isn't unusual to see the activity that help feed the "bubble" behave that way: IT employment didn't fully recover in the last economic cycle after the internet bubble burst.
He nevertheless predicts significant (but not fast) recovery.
| 446 |
garhighway Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:57:07am |
re: #444 lawhawk
Re: Ground Zero news - the Durst Organization has entered into a deal to handle Freedom Tower marketing/leasing and a 10% ownership stake for $100 million.
Earlier this week publishing giant Conde Nast was reported to be interested in 1 million sf at 1WTC/Freedom Tower beginning in 2014 when the tower should be ready and would be the largest tenant at the 1,776 foot skyscraper that has nearly 2.6 million sf of space.
That would be nice.
People forget that the original WTC 1 and 2 were largely occupied by government agencies in the beginning. It took them a while to catch on with private sector tenants.
| 447 |
Wozza Matter? Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:57:37am |
re: #443 RadicalModerate
Rush Limbaugh on yesterday's radio show, in response to a caller advocating secession and/or civil war because she doesn't trust elections:
He goes on to claim that this civil war was started by the left "years and years ago, and is just now intensifying."
Not good.
| 448 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:58:55am |
re: #445 garhighway
The corporate economist where I work projects that housing starts won't recover past 60% or so of their peak during this economic cycle. He also said that it isn't unusual to see the activity that help feed the "bubble" behave that way: IT employment didn't fully recover in the last economic cycle after the internet bubble burst.
He nevertheless predicts significant (but not fast) recovery.
Thanks. I've heard plenty of predictions over the past two years. Doesn't do me any good. I'm down to 29 dollars and the rent isn't payed. The unemployment figures are going nowhere:
They will rise in the coming months due to the traditional holiday and back-to-school slump.
| 449 |
JRCMYP Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:00:46am |
re: #91 webevintage
and plastic, they are plastic, not metal.
I guess that makes it better...
I would assume that as the technology has improved the wands used for a vaginal ultrasound have gotten smaller.
God, I would hope so.
They have not. As of almost 7 years ago.
| 450 |
Spare O'Lake Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:01:08am |
Teach Your Children Well Alert:
New Al Qaida Chief Is Former US Resident
By ASSOCIATED PRESS
08/06/2010 11:03
Operative lived in US for 15 years, now head of global operations.A suspected Al Qaida operative who lived for more than 15 years in the United States has become chief of the terror network's global operations, the FBI says, marking the first time a leader so intimately familiar with American society has been placed in charge of planning attacks.
Adnan Shukrijumah, 35, has taken over a position once held by September 11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who was captured in 2003, Miami-based FBI counterterrorism agent Brian LeBlanc told The Associated Press in an exclusive interview. That puts him in regular contact with al-Qaida's senior leadership, including Osama bin Laden, LeBlanc said.
...
Before turning to radical strains of Islam, Shukrijumah lived in Miramar with his mother and five siblings, excelling at computer science and chemistry courses while studying at community college. He had come to South Florida in 1995 when his father, a Muslim cleric and missionary trained in Saudi Arabia, decided to take a post at a Florida mosque after several years at a mosque in Brooklyn, New York.
...
[Link: www.jpost.com...]
Good Morning LGF
| 451 |
lawhawk Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:01:40am |
re: #442 Gus 802
The U3 figure is the one that undercounts the overall unemployed. U6 is showing 16.5%. The U3 rate drops out those who are no longer actively seeking work or who are no longer getting benefits.
And as bad as the rates are overall - it's abysmal if you're anyone in the 16-19 range, where the rate is above 25%.
| 452 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:02:35am |
re: #359 Dan M.
I don't care what partisans do. They're partisans. They just want to push whatever they think will give them an advantage. If Republicans want to pretend that there's no longer any culture war, they can do that because they're partisans. And if Democrats want to drum up the culture war, they can do so. No big deal. I simply expect reasonable people to make reasonably informed decisions. In this case I'm simply saying that Sharron Angle's position on abortion is largely irrelevant to the position she is running for, however, she might be largely irrelevant, anyway, so it might be advantageous for Republicans to just let her lose so we can keep Harry Reid as the Majority Leader, not so much because he's ineffective, but because he's s lot more trustworthy on gun issues than Chuck Schumer.
I don't know what it means to say that Republicans "started the culture war." There are so many aspects to the culture war that were justifiably started be anti-establishment types, and others that were started by people afraid of natural social change. To say that some of the things that I'm fighting for are out of fashion as if I have been fighting the culture war is largely mistaken.
"I don't care what partisans do. They're partisans."
"Haters gonna hate," is not an acceptable reason to elect a woman who is clearly unqualified for the job to the position of US Senator.
We may not be able to do anything to stop her from being crazy pants partisan, but we doubtlessly shouldn't reward it with a Senate seat....
| 453 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:03:46am |
re: #442 Gus 802
re: #445 garhighway
But... but... but... the stimulus is working.
Gus... evidently I know exactly what you are talking about, since we reside in the same basic community... and you know what I currently do for a living... it's far from my career or pass salary range.
And just like you worry about the "seasons" and how you have another "down time" coming up, I worry about being away from my career job market so long (six years now, except for the on/off small private stuff I occasionally do) that I wouldn't be able to get back into the IT market even if jobs became abundant.
I suspect, except for maybe an increase in doing some private contract work on legacy stuff, I'm permanently out of the day to day IT world.
That's a fact.
| 454 |
lawhawk Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:03:48am |
re: #446 garhighway
Indeed, the original WTC were finally near full occupancy at the time of the attacks for the first time and the rents were at market levels. The Port Authority's offices were in one of the Twin Towers, and other federal, state and local offices were present throughout the complex as was the Mercantile Exchange. Several major financial and insurance companies were also in the buildings.
| 455 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:05:23am |
re: #450 Spare O'Lake
Teach Your Children Well Alert:
Good Morning LGF
| 456 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:06:33am |
re: #452 jamesfirecat
How did your job interview go?
| 457 |
garhighway Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:08:06am |
re: #453 Walter L. Newton
re: #445 garhighway
But... but... but... the stimulus is working.
The real question is what would the numbers look like had the stimulus not been passed.
I remember Paul Krugman writing at the time that he thought it was too small, and I thought then that he was being alarmist.
| 458 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:08:48am |
re: #453 Walter L. Newton
re: #445 garhighway
But... but... but... the stimulus is working.
Gus... evidently I know exactly what you are talking about, since we reside in the same basic community... and you know what I currently do for a living... it's far from my career or pass salary range.
And just like you worry about the "seasons" and how you have another "down time" coming up, I worry about being away from my career job market so long (six years now, except for the on/off small private stuff I occasionally do) that I wouldn't be able to get back into the IT market even if jobs became abundant.
I suspect, except for maybe an increase in doing some private contract work on legacy stuff, I'm permanently out of the day to day IT world.
That's a fact.
Whatever jobs I have seen have requirements that are almost two pages long. Since there are so many people unemployed they get to be choosy. Another thing I noticed is that the salaries are almost down to rates from the 1980s. I've seen some for 12/hour. Heck, I was making a little of 12/hour in 1985 and I was just a greenhorn kid. Age discrimination will also grow with this recession.
| 459 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:13:41am |
re: #457 garhighway
The real question is what would the numbers look like had the stimulus not been passed.
I remember Paul Krugman writing at the time that he thought it was too small, and I thought then that he was being alarmist.
No... the question is why are banks sitting on profits and not lending, why are employers sitting on profits, building up inventory and not hiring, why are people dropping out of 30 year long careers to work in retail and service jobs, which in turn are really taking jobs away from a up and coming younger work force who needs training in how to work at a job? Question is why does an administration pass laws that are bound and determined to take more money from it's citizens at a time when those citizens have less money to give.
| 460 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:14:18am |
re: #457 garhighway
The real question is what would the numbers look like had the stimulus not been passed.
I remember Paul Krugman writing at the time that he thought it was too small, and I thought then that he was being alarmist.
I realize I'm getting into "though shalt not criticize the stimulus" territory here but yes, it's difficult to gauge what would have been the result without this stimulus. However, I think it's rather apparent that the end result of the stimulus is poor and has barely made a dent on the recovery. Since its creation it was well known that roughly 17 percent of stimulus funds would create employment and even then it was mostly temporary employment. There's another factor in that we still yet have to pay for the stimulus and is essentially payed for "on credit".
| 461 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:18:49am |
re: #458 Gus 802
Whatever jobs I have seen have requirements that are almost two pages long. Since there are so many people unemployed they get to be choosy. Another thing I noticed is that the salaries are almost down to rates from the 1980s. I've seen some for 12/hour. Heck, I was making a little of 12/hour in 1985 and I was just a greenhorn kid. Age discrimination will also grow with this recession.
No kidding. In the IT field, some of that is due to the massive "specialization" careers that we saw in the 90's... everyone was a specialist in ONE NICHE of the IT infrastructure. Companies where bloated with employees who should have been wearing a few more hats...
And now the overreaction in the other direction. In IT, companies are looking for someone who has skills in 10-15 different IT tools, platforms, hardware expertise and so on.
As in my case, I have more than what was ever average in skills, I never considered myself a specialist, I'd rather market myself as someone who could get the job done, no matter what. But now a days... I couldn't come close to wearing all the hats that some of these positions require.
Companies are trying to fill 2-3 different jobs with one warm body.
| 462 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:19:39am |
re: #456 Walter L. Newton
How did your job interview go?
Thank you for asking Walter.
It went decently. There were some questions I didn't know the answers to and some areas I didn't know as much about as I'd like, but its an entry level position so they said its okay if I don't know everything.
I should be hearing from them if I got the job either today or Monday....
| 463 |
Mich-again Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:23:34am |
A few random thoughts on the A word.
If someone is really that pro-life that they would oppose abortion even in the case where a mother's life is endangered, I wonder if they are consistent and strongly oppose the death penalty as well. But I'm guessing about 90% of the pro-lifers in the US are also proponents of he death penalty. So much for principles.
I find it somewhat amusing that the same people who are pro-choice get squirmy when they hear about people in some parts of the world who use abortion as a means for selecting the sex of their child. Typically this leads to baby girls being aborted. This is a disgusting practice in my opinion, but hey, if a person is pro-choice, they can't go and put restrictions on that choice now can they. Not if principles mean anything.
Abortion is a medical procedure and there are risks associated with it. Thats why I am opposed to allowing minors to have an abortion without their parents' knowledge. A dentist can't fill a cavity in a minor patient's tooth without parent's consent. Heck a kid can't even get a tattoo without parental consent. Its inconsistent logic to say a minor should be able to get an abortion without the parents knowing.
Its a very thin line, if there is a line at all, between partial birth abortion and infanticide. If it truly was required to save the life of the mother I wouldn't be opposed to it. Otherwise, I think it is barbaric and not much different than having a baby and tossing it in a garbage can.
Abortion is a gut wrenching decision and I don't think the Government should get in the middle of that decision, so I don't fall in line with the agenda of the pro-life crowd. OTOH, I don't fall in line with the pro-choice agenda that opposes any restrictions whatsoever. Extremism breeds extremism and unfortunately, those are the people who dominate the discussion.
I
| 464 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:25:42am |
re: #461 Walter L. Newton
And now the overreaction in the other direction. In IT, companies are looking for someone who has skills in 10-15 different IT tools, platforms, hardware expertise and so on.
That's exactly what I've been seeing. Dozens of specific software experience requirements. Not only the software but right down to the release version or year. It really angers me having started with pencil and pen which didn't have "new releases" over a period of almost 100 years.
Now, we have to keep up with specific software in order to get some job in a cubicle? I'm using software at home that's almost 9 years old and it does and I do more with that than your average office clone that is using the latest software that produces the same end result of working drawings.
That last point is moot at this point. No one needs any working drawings because no one is building anything. About the only ones that are getting work are the lucky few engineering firms that might be getting the few road building and infrastructure projects created by the "stimulus" funds.
| 465 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:26:03am |
re: #462 jamesfirecat
Thank you for asking Walter.
It went decently. There were some questions I didn't know the answers to and some areas I didn't know as much about as I'd like, but its an entry level position so they said its okay if I don't know everything.
I should be hearing from them if I got the job either today or Monday...
Don't wait fro them to call. If you have the proper contact info, call THEM and nicely imply that you "are really interested in the job and are waiting for their decision" or something to that effect.
You have to let them know you are "hungry" for the job. More than likely they have a dozen other people that fit the requirements and you have to try to stand out.
Just waiting on a call is not the best thing to do.
And if there are other job interviews in the future with other potential employers, ask them at the interview (toward the end) if they would mind you checking back in a few days.
Show them right away that you are interested.
| 466 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:26:53am |
Maybe I should just hit the Ritz-Carlton in Spain for the weekend.
/
| 467 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:26:56am |
re: #463 Mich-again
A few random thoughts on the A word.
If someone is really that pro-life that they would oppose abortion even in the case where a mother's life is endangered, I wonder if they are consistent and strongly oppose the death penalty as well. But I'm guessing about 90% of the pro-lifers in the US are also proponents of he death penalty. So much for principles.
I find it somewhat amusing that the same people who are pro-choice get squirmy when they hear about people in some parts of the world who use abortion as a means for selecting the sex of their child. Typically this leads to baby girls being aborted. This is a disgusting practice in my opinion, but hey, if a person is pro-choice, they can't go and put restrictions on that choice now can they. Not if principles mean anything.
Abortion is a medical procedure and there are risks associated with it. Thats why I am opposed to allowing minors to have an abortion without their parents' knowledge. A dentist can't fill a cavity in a minor patient's tooth without parent's consent. Heck a kid can't even get a tattoo without parental consent. Its inconsistent logic to say a minor should be able to get an abortion without the parents knowing.
Its a very thin line, if there is a line at all, between partial birth abortion and infanticide. If it truly was required to save the life of the mother I wouldn't be opposed to it. Otherwise, I think it is barbaric and not much different than having a baby and tossing it in a garbage can.
Abortion is a gut wrenching decision and I don't think the Government should get in the middle of that decision, so I don't fall in line with the agenda of the pro-life crowd. OTOH, I don't fall in line with the pro-choice agenda that opposes any restrictions whatsoever. Extremism breeds extremism and unfortunately, those are the people who dominate the discussion.
I
I think one of the reasons for letting minors get abortions without the parents knowing is in the case of incest.....
That is of course a nasty situation with no happy way out but it makes things slightly less worse than they would be otherwise....
| 468 |
cronus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:28:38am |
re: #459 Walter L. Newton
No... the question is why are banks sitting on profits and not lending, why are employers sitting on profits, building up inventory and not hiring, why are people dropping out of 30 year long careers to work in retail and service jobs, which in turn are really taking jobs away from a up and coming younger work force who needs training in how to work at a job? Question is why does an administration pass laws that are bound and determined to take more money from it's citizens at a time when those citizens have less money to give.
These are the right questions. Banks and employers aren't convinced of the strength of this recovery. They're shoring up their balance sheets in preparation for another downturn or prolonged water treading.
Morning Lizards
| 469 |
lawhawk Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:28:46am |
re: #460 Gus 802
I've frequently criticized the stimulus package because it was so poorly organized and disjointed. Not only was the bulk of the funds an essential bailout for states that were themselves overdrawn, but the so-called infrastructure improvements and shovel ready projects anything but. Much of the money for infrastructure has yet to be spent, but we'll be paying for it for a generation to come.
The stimulus meant that the painful choices to reduce spending to bring it in line with lower revenues have not been fully realized. Some states, like NY, are still ignoring the all too obvious fact that they're spending more than their taxpayers can send to the coffers.
And as various parts of the stimulus are realized we see that the effects were anything but. Cash for clunkers and the homebuyers credits turned out to be nothing more than a cannibalization of sales that would have otherwise occurred - robbing future quarters of sales for a quick jolt on sales. Take the boost with the aftermath and the increases were negligible (if present at all - and the various real estate reports continue to show disappointing returns).
| 470 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:31:31am |
re: #468 cronus
These are the right questions. Banks and employers aren't convinced of the strength of this recovery. They're shoring up their balance sheets in preparation for another downturn or prolonged water treading.
Morning Lizards
Which of course then becomes a f***ing self fulfilling prophecy, since if banks aren't spending/lending, and the rest of the private sector is likewise to scared to spend, and the government has its hands tied so it can't spend, OF COURSE we're going to see another down turn or prolonged water treading....
| 471 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:31:34am |
re: #464 Gus 802
That's exactly what I've been seeing. Dozens of specific software experience requirements. Not only the software but right down to the release version or year. It really angers me having started with pencil and pen which didn't have "new releases" over a period of almost 100 years.
Now, we have to keep up with specific software in order to get some job in a cubicle? I'm using software at home that's almost 9 years old and it does and I do more with that than your average office clone that is using the latest software that produces the same end result of working drawings.
That last point is moot at this point. No one needs any working drawings because no one is building anything. About the only ones that are getting work are the lucky few engineering firms that might be getting the few road building and infrastructure projects created by the "stimulus" funds.
Yes... and I think you will remember me making this point many time before, but those "lucky few engineering firms" are the same firms that local and state governments have had in their pockets for ever.
The stimulus did not open the job market up to new blood, it simply helped pad the pockets of all the "good old boy" contractors and firms that have been sucking off the public funds teats for years.
And these firms already had contracts, already were working on projects. You should know that. Look around town. How many NEW projects have been started because of stimulus funds?
All the stimulus funds did was go to people who already had the work, and cities and states have still run out of money to pay for day to day public sector services.
Wonder why? I don't.
| 472 |
Mich-again Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:31:37am |
re: #467 jamesfirecat
I think one of the reasons for letting minors get abortions without the parents knowing is in the case of incest...
That is of course a nasty situation with no happy way out but it makes things slightly less worse than they would be otherwise...
Well if there is incest, then the father should be arrested and prosecuted. I don't quite understand how it helps anything to quietly give the minor an abortion and then send her back home.
| 473 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:34:04am |
re: #472 Mich-again
Well if there is incest, then the father should be arrested and prosecuted. I don't quite understand how it helps anything to quietly give the minor an abortion and then send her back home.
Incest /rape tend to be very hard things to prove, especially if the girl in question doesn't want to come forward and talk about it for one reason or another (fear/shame).
If there is incest then yes letting the girl get an abortion is like putting a band-aid on a artillery wound, but it is better than the alternative isn't it?
| 474 |
garhighway Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:35:46am |
re: #459 Walter L. Newton
No... the question is why are banks sitting on profits and not lending
It's called "de-leveraging". It is what you do when you discover your balance sheet is ridiculously leveraged and you are short of capital.
| 475 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:35:50am |
re: #465 Walter L. Newton
Don't wait fro them to call. If you have the proper contact info, call THEM and nicely imply that you "are really interested in the job and are waiting for their decision" or something to that effect.
You have to let them know you are "hungry" for the job. More than likely they have a dozen other people that fit the requirements and you have to try to stand out.
Just waiting on a call is not the best thing to do.
And if there are other job interviews in the future with other potential employers, ask them at the interview (toward the end) if they would mind you checking back in a few days.
Show them right away that you are interested.
EXCELLENT advice!
| 476 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:36:20am |
re: #471 Walter L. Newton
Yes... and I think you will remember me making this point many time before, but those "lucky few engineering firms" are the same firms that local and state governments have had in their pockets for ever.
The stimulus did not open the job market up to new blood, it simply helped pad the pockets of all the "good old boy" contractors and firms that have been sucking off the public funds teats for years.
And these firms already had contracts, already were working on projects. You should know that. Look around town. How many NEW projects have been started because of stimulus funds?
All the stimulus funds did was go to people who already had the work, and cities and states have still run out of money to pay for day to day public sector services.
Wonder why? I don't.
That's exactly true about those lucky few engineering firms. I forget the specific names but they mostly come from the Engineering 500 list and have had long standing relationships with Denver. Many of which were also involved with large commercial project (high rises) in Denver when times were good. Many of these firms also perform their engineering work outside of Denver.
I haven't seen much stimulus work of note. They did repave some of the avenues which almost took a year but that was planned before the stimulus. Oh, and did you see that latest plan for DIA? 1 billion dollars for what? DIA is another money pit.
| 477 |
Mich-again Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:41:27am |
The stimulus package was needed to "prime the pump" of the stalled economy. How effective it was is yet to be completely determined, and its impossible to say how much worse things might be right now if the Government had done nothing and watched the economy collapse. One key variable in the American economy is consumer confidence, so part of the economic recovery relies on people having enough confidence to make the major purchases. That doesn't get easier with all the radio blowhards beating the drum every day about how bad everything is and how much worse the administration is making it, self-fulfilling prophecies and all.. In a perfect world, the stimulus package would be invested in projects that will make American businesses more profitable and more likely to hire people instead of just dumping money into a bottomless pit. But its not a perfect world.
| 478 |
lawhawk Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:42:07am |
Hey Ayatollahs, leave those kids alone!
| 479 |
RogueOne Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:49:02am |
re: #442 Gus 802
Yeah, I saw that. I'm at my wits end here. Can't find any work and the only people calling up are my credit card companies. The unemployment figure of 9.5 percent is a low figure. It's higher than that since they only include people that are collecting unemployment insurance. I can't collect a single dime because I'm self employed and never payed unemployment insurance. Only had I been incorporated would I have done that.
Talked with a contractor I know yesterday. A lot of people he knows in the biz are going out of business. There's simply no work even with simple remodels. The same is true with architects and structural or civil engineers. It's been dead for almost 2 years now. This summer is a wash and it's almost over. Once we go into the end of September it will be dead until late January or beyond which is even true when the economy is doing well.
That's the same thing we're running into out here. No one is building anything. Yesterday I was in one of the fastest growing portions of the country, Noblesville/Fishers, where they generally have a construction site going every 50 yards (slight exaggeration). This year I saw one. I've managed to pick up some business just because others couldn't hold on any longer. It blows around here. Thank the gods for Taco Bell, KFC, and Burger King!
| 480 |
garhighway Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:50:26am |
re: #460 Gus 802
I realize I'm getting into "though shalt not criticize the stimulus" territory here but yes, it's difficult to gauge what would have been the result without this stimulus. However, I think it's rather apparent that the end result of the stimulus is poor and has barely made a dent on the recovery. Since its creation it was well known that roughly 17 percent of stimulus funds would create employment and even then it was mostly temporary employment. There's another factor in that we still yet have to pay for the stimulus and is essentially payed for "on credit".
Where does that 17% number come from?
As for how we pay for the stimulus, that sort of misses the point. Think back to 1/2009. We had nothing in the monetary policy arsenal to stimulate the economy, as interest rates were already essentially zero. But we had an economy that was severely contracting. Classic economic theory says that is the time for spending stimulus: yes, it is on borrowed money, but the expectation is that the economy can handle the marginal increase in the debt and pay it back in better times. Getting serious about deficit reduction in the depths of a severe contraction is just terrible policy that would make the contraction worse.
I was disappointed in the structure of the stimulus: it could have been more front-loaded. But to criticize the third that went to state and local governments is to ask for huge job cuts from them (with the accompanying exacerbating effect that would have on the contraction) at the absolute worst time. And the whole point of the stimulus was to prevent more unemployment and to prime the pump for re-employment.
Long term, I would like to see the federal government out of the business of revenue sharing with state and local governments, as doing so gives people an unrealistic sense of the cost of their local services. Those services should be paid for out of locally-generated tax revenue, and then local voters can decide what they want and don't want and tax themselves accordingly. But January of 2009 would have been the exact wrong time to start down that path.
I think a sort of collective amnesia has set in, with people forgetting just how close we came to something really, really bad. Between the collapse of the finance sector, the construction industry and the domestic auto industry we were very close to a massive depression. There was no free market solution to that. None.
| 481 |
Spare O'Lake Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:51:52am |
'Adolf Hitler' Taken Away From Parents By NJ Court
By JPOST.COM STAFF
08/06/2010 17:25A New Jersey appellate court Friday ruled that Adolf Hitler Campbell and his two siblings would be permanently taken away from their parents due to abuse.
The Campbells gave each of their three children names in honor of the Nazi regime. Both parents are unemployed, suffer from disabilities and experienced severe parental abuse when they were children.
The Campbell children have been in foster homes since January 2009 after the allegations of physical and mental abuse of their children were lodged.
The Campbells first gained national exposure when a local New Jersey supermarket refused to decorate a birthday cake for their child with icing that was to have read, "Happy Birthday, Adolf Hitler."
[Link: www.jpost.com...]
Anyone know the names of the other siblings?
| 482 |
Stonemason Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:52:50am |
re: #463 Mich-again
I am one of those wing nuts that thinks a woman has the right to choose but have a big problem with the following argument:
If someone is really that pro-life that they would oppose abortion even in the case where a mother's life is endangered, I wonder if they are consistent and strongly oppose the death penalty as well. But I'm guessing about 90% of the pro-lifers in the US are also proponents of he death penalty. So much for principles.
The vast majority of people who are being executed have made a choice to break a law that comes with a death penalty. The fetus in question did not make the choice to be implanted.
Not equal arguments, from either side.
| 484 |
RogueOne Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:53:07am |
re: #443 RadicalModerate
Rush Limbaugh on yesterday's radio show, in response to a caller advocating secession and/or civil war because she doesn't trust elections:
He goes on to claim that this civil war was started by the left "years and years ago, and is just now intensifying."
Did we not learn last week that partisan sites just might put edited clips out there that take things out of context?
| 485 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:53:11am |
re: #480 garhighway
The collapse of the financial sector wasn't allegedly prevented by the stimulus project. That was TARP.
| 486 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:56:07am |
re: #480 garhighway
I love the smell of spin in the morning. It's not working, not to the benefit of the everyday citizen who need the fucking jobs. Yea, it's working for the CEO's, the project leaders, the same contractors and firms that have been in the pocket of the public dole for years, but it isn't trickling down to where I sit...
Bullshit. Using you logic, the super rich is the ones benefitting, their money is safe. Big business money is safe, big banking money is safe, big pharm is safe, the auto unions pensions are safe... the rest of us don't have jack.
That's evidently ok with you.
Bullshit.
| 487 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:56:13am |
Well, it's too late to change what was done but here's the reality of today's news:
U.S. Stocks Fall After Weaker-Than-Estimated Jobs Report
U.S. stocks fell, paring a weekly advance for the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index, after weaker-than- forecast growth in company payrolls added to evidence the economic recovery is slowing.
U.S. Companies Add 71,000 Jobs; Unemployment at 9.5%
Companies in the U.S. added workers in July for a seventh straight month at a pace that suggests the labor-market recovery will be slow to take hold.
DJI: 10561.99 -112.99 (-1.06%) Aug 6 10:54am ET
| 489 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:56:24am |
re: #480 garhighway
Where does that 17% number come from?
As for how we pay for the stimulus, that sort of misses the point. Think back to 1/2009. We had nothing in the monetary policy arsenal to stimulate the economy, as interest rates were already essentially zero. But we had an economy that was severely contracting. Classic economic theory says that is the time for spending stimulus: yes, it is on borrowed money, but the expectation is that the economy can handle the marginal increase in the debt and pay it back in better times. Getting serious about deficit reduction in the depths of a severe contraction is just terrible policy that would make the contraction worse.
I was disappointed in the structure of the stimulus: it could have been more front-loaded. But to criticize the third that went to state and local governments is to ask for huge job cuts from them (with the accompanying exacerbating effect that would have on the contraction) at the absolute worst time. And the whole point of the stimulus was to prevent more unemployment and to prime the pump for re-employment.
Long term, I would like to see the federal government out of the business of revenue sharing with state and local governments, as doing so gives people an unrealistic sense of the cost of their local services. Those services should be paid for out of locally-generated tax revenue, and then local voters can decide what they want and don't want and tax themselves accordingly. But January of 2009 would have been the exact wrong time to start down that path.
I think a sort of collective amnesia has set in, with people forgetting just how close we came to something really, really bad. Between the collapse of the finance sector, the construction industry and the domestic auto industry we were very close to a massive depression. There was no free market solution to that. None.
Thank you.
| 490 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:57:15am |
re: #487 Gus 802
Well, it's too late to change what was done but here's the reality of today's news:
U.S. Stocks Fall After Weaker-Than-Estimated Jobs Report
DJI: 10561.99 -112.99 (-1.06%) Aug 6 10:54am ET
Imagine what it would be like if we didn't have the stimulus. Of course you can imagine, since nothing has changed for you and I.
| 491 |
Mich-again Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:57:59am |
re: #482 Stonemason
I see your point. But if someone is pro-life for religious reasons, I don't see how they can use the same religion to promote execution.
| 492 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:58:12am |
re: #484 RogueOne
Did we not learn last week that partisan sites just might put edited clips out there that take things out of context?
Well then I can't wait for Rush to release the full tape!
| 493 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:59:04am |
re: #490 Walter L. Newton
Imagine what it would be like if we didn't have the stimulus. Of course you can imagine, since nothing has changed for you and I.
They're actually talking about another stimulus. Which has me wondering. How can we get in on the ground floor of one of those stimulus scams schemes we've been seeing.
| 494 |
cronus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 7:59:31am |
There are very reasonable and important criticisms of the stimulus package as passed, but the idea of no fiscal stimulus is difficult to take seriously. Those opposing stimulus on principle are also those chiefly engaging in TARP revisionism. Do these politicians/pundits really believe that Congress should have taken no action to shore up credit markets or combat the economic free fall?
| 495 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:02:18am |
And get ready for this:
Wheat Heads for Biggest Gain in Half a Century on Export Bans
Wheat headed for the biggest weekly gain in half a century on concern other countries may follow an export ban by Russia, and may reach $10 a bushel, a price not seen since the global food crisis in 2008.
Look for higher food prices in the USA which will compound the difficulties faced by this failed economy.
| 496 |
palomino Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:02:53am |
re: #490 Walter L. Newton
Imagine what it would be like if we didn't have the stimulus. Of course you can imagine, since nothing has changed for you and I.
I can imagine not getting the tax cut I got.
Things might have been worse without it, who knows? But no president was gonna take office in the worst crisis since the Depression and then go all Herbert Hoover, doing nothing about it.
| 497 |
lawhawk Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:03:03am |
re: #480 garhighway
The solution to the auto industry's problem was the solution eventually found for GM and Chrysler after their respective multibillion dollar bailouts - bankruptcy reorganizations. Even then, both those companies are in poor shape - and the combination of bad management and awful union deals contributed mightily to their positions, especially when you look at those companies' exposure to the financial meltdown through their financing arms (GMAC in particular).
Ford didn't go that route because it vigorously reorganized and trimmed the fat and problems within the company and renegotiated its debt.
GM and Chrysler took the bailouts. All those bailouts did was leave taxpayers on the hook and string the companies along for a few months more until they entered expedited bankruptcies. Those billions would have never been spent had the companies directly proceeded into reorganizations - and for that I blame Bush. And then I blame Obama, who extended additional bailout funds to both companies, even though reorganization was critical to turning those companies around.
What's worse is that the feds then took ownership positions in GM. GM is clearly seeing that people are loathe to buy GM cars because GM's Whiteacre can't wait to get the feds out of their ownership position so that the company can begin issuing new stock but the feds are dragging their feet.
| 498 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:03:07am |
| 499 |
Stonemason Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:03:11am |
re: #491 Mich-again
I see your point. But if someone is pro-life for religious reasons, I don't see how they can use the same religion to promote execution.
It's the choice part of it. We don't usually send people to the chair who have committed anything less than pre-meditated murder (I think rapists should go too), which means that the murderer knew before committing the act the consequences of that act (if the DP was used correctly, another discussion). The punishment part is fine with religious folk, remember, one is punished for eternity if one does not follow the rules of the religion, which, according to each faith, is a choice of the 'sinner'.
Once again, for clarity, I support fully a woman's right to choose how to proceed with a pregnancy.
| 500 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:03:39am |
re: #496 palomino
I can imagine not getting the tax cut I got.
Things might have been worse without it, who knows? But no president was gonna take office in the worst crisis since the Depression and then go all Herbert Hoover, doing nothing about it.
Times up... stop blaming Bush. It's all your now.
| 502 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:04:43am |
re: #496 palomino
I can imagine not getting the tax cut I got.
Things might have been worse without it, who knows? But no president was gonna take office in the worst crisis since the Depression and then go all Herbert Hoover, doing nothing about it.
Didn't McCain later support a five year spending freeze as the answer to our problems?
Why yes he did!
| 503 |
Stonemason Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:04:52am |
re: #495 Gus 802
And get ready for this:
Wheat Heads for Biggest Gain in Half a Century on Export Bans
Look for higher food prices in the USA which will compound the difficulties faced by this failed economy.
Drats, I heard a report on NPR (or the Beeb) where bakers said the price of bread would not go up due to this...must now google...
| 504 |
Spare O'Lake Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:05:21am |
| 505 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:05:51am |
re: #500 Walter L. Newton
Times up... stop blaming Bush. It's all your now.
But we're not even a year and 9 months in!
If Bush can blame Clinton for 9/11 then clearly we can still keep blaming Bush for at least another month!
| 506 |
lawhawk Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:06:11am |
re: #494 cronus
The credit markets were in dire shape and TARP addresses many of those issues, but since the credit markets have stabilized, the TARP funds have become something of a slush fund as a go-to for any and all kinds of items that have nothing to do with their original purpose, such as the mortgage modification program (HAMP).
| 507 |
Stonemason Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:06:12am |
re: #503 Stonemason
and all my googling proves my hearing wrong, oh well, buy bread now and freeze it!
| 508 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:06:12am |
re: #503 Stonemason
Drats, I heard a report on NPR (or the Beeb) where bakers said the price of bread would not go up due to this...must now google...
I doubt it. Once Safeway and other grocers see this they'll be raising the prices on all wheat products big time.
| 509 |
RadicalModerate Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:06:17am |
re: #484 RogueOne
Did we not learn last week that partisan sites just might put edited clips out there that take things out of context?
The clip is an unedited, self-contained segment. It begins with a call taken by Limbaugh, followed by his response in monologue form (no interaction with caller outside of opening part of segment). The only way this could have been edited is if sections were taken out mid-segment, and the flow of the clip indicates there are no gaps.
| 511 |
Stonemason Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:07:51am |
re: #498 Walter L. Newton
wasn't that video highly edited to make the viewer come to a conclusion that was not in anyway supported by the full video?
| 512 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:08:17am |
| 513 |
Stonemason Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:09:31am |
re: #505 jamesfirecat
But we're not even a year and 9 months in!
If Bush can blame Clinton for 9/11 then clearly we can still keep blaming Bush for at least another month!
uhhh, September 11, 2001 was less than 9 months into Bush's term, he was sworn in on January 20, 2001.
| 514 |
Stonemason Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:10:24am |
re: #508 Gus 802
I doubt it. Once Safeway and other grocers see this they'll be raising the prices on all wheat products big time.
yeah, you are right, the baker I heard was a small guy who was afraid he would lose sales if he raised prices.
| 515 |
lawhawk Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:10:52am |
re: #496 palomino
Actually, that's exactly the position now. President Obama is doing nothing to demand Congress act on the expiring 2001 and 2003 Bush tax cuts (EGTRRA and JGTRRA). The expiration of the tax cuts would result in a 10-30% tax hike for nearly all Americans in the teeth of a teetering recession.
That's on Obama. You can't blame anyone else for that.
Well, actually, we can. We can blame Pelosi and Reid who have yet to formulate an alternative proposal to deal with the expiring cuts.
If Congress does nothing and the President has nothing to sign into law - those tax cuts expire, and everyone will see tax hikes.
If you think the current situation is bad, it's going to get real ugly next year when everyone sees their take home pay cut because the tax hikes hit home.
And that is the real reason that everyone is sitting on the sidelines with their money. They don't know what Congress is going to do with the tax policy and hunkering down with what money they have in hand is the best thing they can do because they're going to have less income next year as those tax hikes take hold.
Businesses can't set long term business decisions because they don't know the tax rates and those that are acting are doing so under the worst case scenarios - the higher tax rates.
| 516 |
Mich-again Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:11:23am |
re: #495 Gus 802
True, but I do think the US is a food exporter and higher prices will help reduce the trade deficit so while highere bread prices are bad for most, at least some parts of the American economy may even benefit from that.
| 517 |
RogueOne Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:12:02am |
re: #509 RadicalModerate
The clip is an unedited, self-contained segment. It begins with a call taken by Limbaugh, followed by his response in monologue form (no interaction with caller outside of opening part of segment). The only way this could have been edited is if sections were taken out mid-segment, and the flow of the clip indicates there are no gaps.
Which we learned in the Sherrod episode is considered edited. It was cut out of a 3 hour show. A 1 minute response out of roughly 180 and no context at all in the printed quote. This kind of "gotcha" crap is never going to end if people keep giving these kinds of sites linkage.
Rule #4: If it's from a partisan site it's more than likely bullshit.
| 518 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:12:12am |
re: #514 Stonemason
yeah, you are right, the baker I heard was a small guy who was afraid he would lose sales if he raised prices.
His prices are probably already inflated anyway. I'll assume they talked to someone running a "boutique" bakery if you know what I mean. I was just wondering about why I can't get a dollar cup of coffee around here. The lowest is like 2.50. By the time you leave 50 cents it's like 3 bucks for a stupid cup of coffee.
| 519 |
RogueOne Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:12:31am |
re: #512 jamesfirecat
Rush is going to make ME pay for to make HIM release the tape that clears HIS name?
Wow that guy really is a penny pincher...
He didn't make his money by being a philanthropist.
| 520 |
Spare O'Lake Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:12:41am |
re: #480 garhighway
The stimulus has pushed the day of reckoning a ways down the road for those fortunate enough to have decent jobs or viable businesses. But without hard-nosed solutions to the humongous structural deficits and the ballooning national debt, how can anyone delude themselves into believing that the worst is past?
| 521 |
Stonemason Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:14:16am |
re: #518 Gus 802
Wawa...great coffee, less than 2 bucks, and no tip needed!
| 522 |
cronus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:14:45am |
re: #506 lawhawk
The credit markets were in dire shape and TARP addresses many of those issues, but since the credit markets have stabilized, the TARP funds have become something of a slush fund as a go-to for any and all kinds of items that have nothing to do with their original purpose, such as the mortgage modification program (HAMP).
Agreed. But TARP was passed under different circumstances than the stimulus. Treasury and the Fed needed immediate access to funds and flexibility they didn't have by statute. To paraphrase Warren Buffett regarding TARP: "it was more important to be fast than perfect."
I think that doesn't apply as much to stimulus. There was more time to consider the framework and focus of the stimulus. We could also look to the Chinese stimulus package as an example. But politicians being politicians, the stimulus became a compromised and unfocused hodgepodge. I think elements of it have helped but much of the spending I think will be shown to have been marginal to irrelevant. Which is what you would expect because there was little rhyme or reason to it's construction.
| 523 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:15:32am |
re: #513 Stonemason
uhhh, September 11, 2001 was less than 9 months into Bush's term, he was sworn in on January 20, 2001.
Sorry my bad.
That said I think I'll let Jon Stewart speak for me....
| 524 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:16:44am |
re: #511 Stonemason
wasn't that video highly edited to make the viewer come to a conclusion that was not in anyway supported by the full video?
What video are you talking about? We are talking about thousands and thousands of copies of military documents that were sent from someone (Manning, the suspect?) to Assange at Wikileaks.
That video is a small, drop in the bucket nothing in comparison to what this article is talking about. And I'm not even sure if that video that was leaked has even been attributed to Manning.
| 525 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:18:46am |
re: #517 RogueOne
Which we learned in the Sherrod episode is considered edited. It was cut out of a 3 hour show. A 1 minute response out of roughly 180 and no context at all in the printed quote. This kind of "gotcha" crap is never going to end if people keep giving these kinds of sites linkage.
Rule #4: If it's from a partisan site it's more than likely bullshit.
Does this mean we can next expect to see Media Maters showing video from a kid who obtained it by dressing up like a pimp and joining the NRA?
| 526 |
cronus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:21:04am |
re: #515 lawhawk
And that is the real reason that everyone is sitting on the sidelines with their money. They don't know what Congress is going to do with the tax policy and hunkering down with what money they have in hand is the best thing they can do because they're going to have less income next year as those tax hikes take hold.
This is compounded by the regulatory uncertainty most businesses face in regards to the federal agencies that regulate their industries. Most of your true anti-industry ideologues end up in regulatory positions within agencies. The rules they write and decisions they enforce are often much more significant to industry than the Congressional branch action that grabs all the headlines.
| 527 |
RogueOne Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:21:43am |
re: #525 jamesfirecat
Does this mean we can next expect to see Media Maters showing video from a kid who obtained it by dressing up like a pimp and joining the NRA?
Probably, but it will probably turn out to be a Halloween prank by some college kid.
| 528 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:23:49am |
re: #515 lawhawk
Imagine what it would be like if we didn't have the stimulus.
| 529 |
RadicalModerate Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:24:44am |
Effect on US consumer prices should be minimal, as the US is fully self-sufficient on wheat and many other grain crops, and will be exporting from a bumper crop to help fill in gaps left by Russian shortages.
The fear that Russia, a major wheat producer, will have to cut exports by at least 30 percent is good news for U.S. farmers, who now are getting more money to go along with a bumper crop this year.
That big harvest, analysts point out, should spare U.S. consumers much increase in the prices of bread and other wheat-based foods despite the problems in Russia.
Any price increases will hit consumers hardest in wheat-deficient areas such as the Middle East, Africa and parts of Asia.
Russian wheat crop in dire straits, while U.S. farmers expect bumper harvests
| 530 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:25:22am |
re: #528 Walter L. Newton
Imagine what it would be like if we didn't have the stimulus.
Where's Professor Farnsworth when you need him?
| 531 |
Stonemason Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:25:54am |
re: #524 Walter L. Newton
What video are you talking about? We are talking about thousands and thousands of copies of military documents that were sent from someone (Manning, the suspect?) to Assange at Wikileaks.
That video is a small, drop in the bucket nothing in comparison to what this article is talking about. And I'm not even sure if that video that was leaked has even been attributed to Manning.
He has not been formally charged with the document leak, he has been charged with leaking the video that Assange then edited to make the Americans look like murderers. This is what he was turned in for, the document drop then landed in his lap too. This guy (and Assange) need to spend the rest of their lives in prison (or, be executed, depending on the laws violated.)
Anyway my point was that a left wing smear site edited a video (this year) to make a political point.
| 532 |
RadicalModerate Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:26:16am |
re: #530 jamesfirecat
Where's Professor Farnsworth when you need him?
I seriously doubt he would be saying "Good news, everyone!"
| 533 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:26:59am |
RogueOne evoking Sherrod to try and cast doubt on Limbaugh's treason. Shameless.
| 534 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:27:07am |
re: #532 RadicalModerate
I seriously doubt he would be saying "Good news, everyone!"
No.. he'd be saying "Imagine what it would be like if we didn't have the stimulus."
| 535 |
RogueOne Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:27:22am |
Don't know how I missed this. Finally, someone is taking my war on redheads argument seriously:
| 536 |
RogueOne Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:28:04am |
re: #535 RogueOne
Crap, NSFW!!!!! old people boobs about 1 min in
| 537 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:29:11am |
re: #498 Walter L. Newton
P.S...
He appears to be a "lefty"
"Judging by his Facebook page, the young soldier's politics appear to be left-leaning..."
| 538 |
_RememberTonyC Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:31:26am |
Has anyone heard any polling numbers on the demographic makeup of the "birthers?" Since the birthers (IMHO) are the most deranged of the Obama haters, I'd like to know how many Dems and Independents makeup "birther nation?" I couldn't find anything on that.
| 539 |
Soap_Man Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:31:42am |
re: #537 Walter L. Newton
P.S...
He appears to be a "lefty"
"Judging by his Facebook page, the young soldier's politics appear to be left-leaning..."
Judging by his Facebook page, the young soldier's politics appear to be left-leaning, and he's an ardent supporter of groups working to achieve full civil rights for gays. Manning listed on his page causes such as "Repeal the Ban - End Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and included links to "No on Prop 8," a California ballot measure that eliminated the right to marry for same-sex couples, Human Rights Campaign and the National Center for Transgender Equality.
That's just one position they cite. Need more than that to consider someone "left-leaning" or "right-leaning" or whatever.
| 540 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:32:19am |
And... on the INTERNATIONAL STIMULUS front...
My pocket doesn't go much deeper.
| 541 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:32:53am |
re: #539 Soap_Man
That's just one position they cite. Need more than that to consider someone "left-leaning" or "right-leaning" or whatever.
Talk to CNN, not me?
| 542 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:35:59am |
re: #540 Walter L. Newton
And... on the INTERNATIONAL STIMULUS front...
My pocket doesn't go much deeper.
I'll do my part by selling my car so I can keep a roof over my head for a couple of months or three. Thanks to this "robust" economy. Problem solved.
/
| 543 |
RadicalModerate Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:36:29am |
re: #539 Soap_Man
That's just one position they cite. Need more than that to consider someone "left-leaning" or "right-leaning" or whatever.
Well, since he's a gay, believes in civil rights, and had misgivings about how the Iraq War was conducted, he's obviously a Obama voting America-hating ACORN member.
//
| 544 |
garhighway Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:37:02am |
re: #485 Gus 802
The collapse of the financial sector wasn't allegedly prevented by the stimulus project. That was TARP.
Agreed. Didn't say otherwise.
| 545 |
Stonemason Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:37:23am |
re: #539 Soap_Man
That's just one position they cite. Need more than that to consider someone "left-leaning" or "right-leaning" or whatever.
Manning seemed "naive," Lamo said, "easily led," but a "genuine, sincere boy.
"
also from the link...more evidence of leftiness...
| 546 |
garhighway Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:41:40am |
re: #486 Walter L. Newton
I love the smell of spin in the morning. It's not working, not to the benefit of the everyday citizen who need the fucking jobs. Yea, it's working for the CEO's, the project leaders, the same contractors and firms that have been in the pocket of the public dole for years, but it isn't trickling down to where I sit...
Bullshit. Using you logic, the super rich is the ones benefitting, their money is safe. Big business money is safe, big banking money is safe, big pharm is safe, the auto unions pensions are safe... the rest of us don't have jack.
That's evidently ok with you.
Bullshit.
I respectfully disagree.
I am as unhappy with the state of the economy as everyone else is. But the grading scale some use for the stimulus is flawed. The real question is where we would be had we not done that. From what I read, the answer is that things would be worse.
Do I like the tepid pace of recovery? I do not. Do I wish it were faster? I do.
But not doing a stimulus bill would have been a terrible idea. Was it ideally structured? I don't think so. But what is?
| 547 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:43:19am |
re: #544 garhighway
Agreed. Didn't say otherwise.
OK Anyway. I'm not saying this recovery is all the sole burden of the government. Within the context of TARP and financial institutions I would say it's high time the private sector started doing some investing to stimulate the economy and stop giving development investors such a hard time getting loans.
| 548 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:44:37am |
OK, so I was looking for a dollar cup of coffee. Is there any place for a 5 dollar hair cut?
| 549 |
_RememberTonyC Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:45:55am |
re: #538 _RememberTonyC
Has anyone heard any polling numbers on the demographic makeup of the "birthers?" Since the birthers (IMHO) are the most deranged of the Obama haters, I'd like to know how many Dems and Independents makeup "birther nation?" I couldn't find anything on that.
here's a clip from the Washington Post:
Fifteen percent of self-identified Democrats said cited solid evidence (six percent), suspicions (seven percent) or no opinion (one percent) about whether the President was born in the U.S. Thirty-one percent of Republicans had suspicions (19 percent) or solid evidence (11 percent) that Obama was not born in the country.
So while it shows that more republicans than democrats are birthers, it also shows that perhaps one in three birthers are democrats, and that is not an insignificant percentage. And Independents surely are also represented in the birther movement. So I think all of us need to chill out about only people to the right being crazy on this issue.
| 550 |
Stonemason Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:46:13am |
re: #548 Gus 802
OK, so I was looking for a dollar cup of coffee. Is there any place for a 5 dollar hair cut?
Go to the hair-stylist schools, they offer low cost cuts.
| 552 |
Soap_Man Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:46:56am |
A president and the economy is like a quarterback and a football team. Too much blame when things are bad, too much credit when things are good.
| 553 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:46:57am |
re: #548 Gus 802
OK, so I was looking for a dollar cup of coffee. Is there any place for a 5 dollar hair cut?
I cut my boys' hair myself, because it would otherwise cost around $40 to get all four.
My husband gets his hair cut professionally, mostly because if someone messes it up, it's not going to be me.
| 554 |
wrenchwench Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:48:21am |
re: #548 Gus 802
OK, so I was looking for a dollar cup of coffee. Is there any place for a 5 dollar hair cut?
I had an employee who would cut his friends' hair for $2.00. I had him do mine once, but that was just cutting off a braid, and straightening out the results a bit.
| 555 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:48:26am |
re: #548 Gus 802
Is there any place for a 5 dollar hair cut?
Buy a pair of clippers for about $25 and do it yourself. They will last for years.
| 556 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:48:46am |
re: #553 EmmmieG
I cut my boys' hair myself, because it would otherwise cost around $40 to get all four.
My husband gets his hair cut professionally, mostly because if someone messes it up, it's not going to be me.
Do you use the electric hair clippers? That's what my mom used to use with me and my brother.
| 557 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:48:57am |
re: #548 Gus 802
OK, so I was looking for a dollar cup of coffee. Is there any place for a 5 dollar hair cut?
Also, y'know, you could join the Mormon church. No more coffee costs ever. And there is a person in each ward specifically called to help people network and get jobs.
(Yeah, I know, but I had to say it.)
| 558 |
garhighway Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:49:40am |
re: #497 lawhawk
The solution to the auto industry's problem was the solution eventually found for GM and Chrysler after their respective multibillion dollar bailouts - bankruptcy reorganizations. Even then, both those companies are in poor shape - and the combination of bad management and awful union deals contributed mightily to their positions, especially when you look at those companies' exposure to the financial meltdown through their financing arms (GMAC in particular).
Ford didn't go that route because it vigorously reorganized and trimmed the fat and problems within the company and renegotiated its debt.
GM and Chrysler took the bailouts. All those bailouts did was leave taxpayers on the hook and string the companies along for a few months more until they entered expedited bankruptcies. Those billions would have never been spent had the companies directly proceeded into reorganizations - and for that I blame Bush. And then I blame Obama, who extended additional bailout funds to both companies, even though reorganization was critical to turning those companies around.
What's worse is that the feds then took ownership positions in GM. GM is clearly seeing that people are loathe to buy GM cars because GM's Whiteacre can't wait to get the feds out of their ownership position so that the company can begin issuing new stock but the feds are dragging their feet.
By the time the auto bailouts were done the idea that we taxpayers get ann ownership interest in exchange for our money was pretty firmly established. (See: AIG and TARP.)
Those two companies were in such a mess that there was no way, none, that they would get through a BK reorg without Federal money and structural reform.
Did they make a zillion mistakes to end up where they did? You betcha. Plus, in Chrysler's case, they had serially raped by Daimler and the private equity guys. But what was the choice? Let them fail (again, in the depths of a brutal contraction) and watch the auto jobs, the supplier jobs and the support industry jobs all evaporate? Really?
| 559 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:49:40am |
re: #556 Gus 802
Do you use the electric hair clippers? That's what my mom used to use with me and my brother.
Yes, but they hate the clippers. Also, I'm just buzzing it.
| 560 |
Mocking Jay Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:49:48am |
re: #556 Gus 802
Do you use the electric hair clippers? That's what my mom used to use with me and my brother.
Oh, just go bald, like me, and be done with it!
| 561 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:49:55am |
re: #557 EmmmieG
Also, y'know, you could join the Mormon church. No more coffee costs ever. And there is a person in each ward specifically called to help people network and get jobs.
(Yeah, I know, but I had to say it.)
Do they accept atheists? ;)
I actually have some Elders in my building.
| 562 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:50:06am |
And this morning, because of this post and another one on extremist anti-abortion fanatics, I received several emails from a religious fanatic creepazoid containing pictures of dead babies.
| 563 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:50:39am |
re: #562 Charles
And this morning, because of this post and another one on extremist anti-abortion fanatics, I received several emails from a religious fanatic creepazoid containing pictures of dead babies.
Par for the course.
| 564 |
garhighway Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:50:41am |
re: #547 Gus 802
OK Anyway. I'm not saying this recovery is all the sole burden of the government. Within the context of TARP and financial institutions I would say it's high time the private sector started doing some investing to stimulate the economy and stop giving development investors such a hard time getting loans.
Slightly OT: I think I read that it looks like TARP will break even at the end of the day.
| 565 |
Soap_Man Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:50:50am |
re: #555 Killgore Trout
Buy a pair of clippers for about $25 and do it yourself. They will last for years.
For the past year or so, I have been getting my hair cut at 5/8 all the way around. I was paying a barber $18 every time to give me a haircut that requires no skill, training or expertise.
Buying clippers was a great idea. It paid for itself, and then some, after only two uses.
| 566 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:51:22am |
re: #559 EmmmieG
Yes, but they hate the clippers. Also, I'm just buzzing it.
Yeah. I reached a point when I said "no more clippers!" and decided to have longer hair. That's when the bangs started coming in. Probably because of the Beatles.
| 567 |
Mocking Jay Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:51:48am |
re: #562 Charles
And this morning, because of this post and another one on extremist anti-abortion fanatics, I received several emails from a religious fanatic creepazoid containing pictures of dead babies.
Well that's a great way to start your day...
| 568 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:52:11am |
An UAE investigation has concluded that a Japanese oil tanker was attacked last week in the Strait of Hormuz, by an explosive laden suicide boat. It punched a dent in the hull, shattered windows, tore off handrails and a lifeboat, and injured one crewman.
| 569 |
lawhawk Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:53:07am |
re: #558 garhighway
So instead they failed even with the bailouts and took billions of US dollars with them. Yeah, that's a great bargain.
| 570 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:53:21am |
re: #565 Soap_Man
For the past year or so, I have been getting my hair cut at 5/8 all the way around. I was paying a barber $18 every time to give me a haircut that requires no skill, training or expertise.
Buying clippers was a great idea. It paid for itself, and then some, after only two uses.
I also like to convenience of it. I don't have to drive somewhere, park then wait to get a haircut. Just pull out the clippers and I'm done in about 10 minutes instead of an hour long ordeal.
| 571 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:54:05am |
re: #561 Gus 802
Do they accept atheists? ;)
I actually have some Elders in my building.
I don't think you have to be LDS to talk to the employment specialist. You also don't have to be LDS to go to the canneries, but it doesn't sound like you are in the mood to buy and store 200 punds of wheat right now.
| 572 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:54:11am |
re: #564 garhighway
Slightly OT: I think I read that it looks like TARP will break even at the end of the day.
This is not a matter if big business, big government, the money makers, the mover, shakers... what ever... it's not a matter if they break even... none of this stimulus has done jack for the common man on the street who just needs a job, or some credit, or not to loose their homes... that's a fact, and that's the only fact that matters... I don't really give two shits that "something was too big to fail..." evidently the rest of us are TOO SMALL not to.
| 573 |
bratwurst Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:54:47am |
re: #484 RogueOne
Did we not learn last week that partisan sites just might put edited clips out there that take things out of context?
Suggesting people be forced to listen to all 3 hours of Rush Limbaugh in order to comment is tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment. I would also point out that, quite unlike Shirley Sherrod, Rush ahs a very long public record of polemical remarks.
| 574 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:54:55am |
Democrats love the Tea Parties....
Dems accused of tea party tampering
Nationally, Democrats say they intend to campaign against the tea party movement. But locally, Democratic officials and activists in at least four states now stand accused of collaborating with tea party candidates in an attempt to sabotage Republican challengers in some of the closest House races in the nation.The charges of dirty tricks are being leveled in Pennsylvania, Michigan, New Jersey and Florida — and they involve more than a half-dozen contests that could tip the balance of power in the House.
The accusations range from helping tea party activists circulate candidate petition sheets to underwriting the creation of official tea parties, which then put forth slates of candidates that local conservatives accuse of being rife with Democratic plants.
In all of the affected races, the outcome is expected to be close enough that a third-party candidate who wins just a few percentage points could end up swinging the outcome to the Democratic congressman or candidate.
| 575 |
RogueOne Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:55:35am |
re: #533 goddamnedfrank
RogueOne evoking Sherrod to try and cast doubt on Limbaugh's treason. Shameless.
Sigh. You think a lot of things are shameless, as long as it's on the other side of the aisle. You cannot make the logical argument that one partisan site that puts out "edited" snippets is more righteous than another strictly because you agree with their politics. I guess you can but what does that really say about you?
| 576 |
Stonemason Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:55:57am |
re: #562 Charles
And this morning, because of this post and another one on extremist anti-abortion fanatics, I received several emails from a religious fanatic creepazoid containing pictures of dead babies.
Heck, emailed pictures are at least kinda private. Don't the really nutty ones drive around in a bus with the pictures on the sides? Yeah, that's gonna make me change my mind.
| 577 |
Gus Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:56:01am |
re: #571 EmmmieG
I don't think you have to be LDS to talk to the employment specialist. You also don't have to be LDS to go to the canneries, but it doesn't sound like you are in the mood to buy and store 200 punds of wheat right now.
200 pounds of wheat? I kind of like the Elders. They've been mostly young women for the past few years and they're pretty darn quiet -- which I like.
| 578 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:56:05am |
Here's why abortion must be completely legal, no exceptions.
If you make it legal only in cases of rape, for instance, then that would mean that the woman would have to prove she was raped before she could obtain an abortion. Rape is incredibly difficult to prove in court. 9/10 times it is he said vs. she said. So, you end up with a situation where women who are raped, but who don't want to deal with the added humiliation of court proceedings, which is a fairly common thing, being forced to either tell the world they were raped on the public record (and possibly fail at prevailing), or give birth to the child of a monster.
Abortion has to be completely legal, because the alternative necessarily means that women do not have control over their own reproduction.
| 579 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:56:19am |
re: #575 RogueOne
Sigh. You think a lot of things are shameless, as long as it's on the other side of the aisle. You cannot make the logical argument that one partisan site that puts out "edited" snippets is more righteous than another strictly because you agree with their politics. I guess you can but what does that really say about you?
That past performance matters?
| 580 |
_RememberTonyC Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:56:56am |
re: #562 Charles
And this morning, because of this post and another one on extremist anti-abortion fanatics, I received several emails from a religious fanatic creepazoid containing pictures of dead babies.
i'm sure they were very persuasive and did not resort to cheap exploitation of the dead to make their points ...
| 581 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:56:59am |
re: #565 Soap_Man
For the past year or so, I have been getting my hair cut at 5/8 all the way around. I was paying a barber $18 every time to give me a haircut that requires no skill, training or expertise.
Buying clippers was a great idea. It paid for itself, and then some, after only two uses.
I shave my head to a 1/4 inch then let it grow for a year or more...no hair problem costs whatsoever
| 582 |
palomino Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:57:08am |
re: #500 Walter L. Newton
Times up... stop blaming Bush. It's all your now.
How is it blaming Bush to give Obama credit for a tax cut? Or to acknowledge that any president, including Obama and Bush, wasn't going to sit around, do nothing, and get called Herbert Hoover?
As for blaming Bush, that's not gonna end soon. He deserves a lot. Jesus, you guys still blame Carter for half the world's ills. How is Bush immune?
| 583 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:58:21am |
re: #582 palomino
How is it blaming Bush to give Obama credit for a tax cut? Or to acknowledge that any president, including Obama and Bush, wasn't going to sit around, do nothing, and get called Herbert Hoover?
As for blaming Bush, that's not gonna end soon. He deserves a lot. Jesus, you guys still blame Carter for half the world's ills. How is Bush immune?
Who's "you guys." If you noticed, I don't fit in your little exploitive bucket... so back off the "you guys."
| 584 |
Spare O'Lake Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:58:25am |
re: #562 Charles
And this morning, because of this post and another one on extremist anti-abortion fanatics, I received several emails from a religious fanatic creepazoid containing pictures of dead babies.
They just don't care about the rape victims. What I find especially galling is that some of the biggest right to life advocates are women, whom one would think would be more sensitive to the plight of the female victims.
| 585 |
Stonemason Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:58:55am |
re: #574 Killgore Trout
Democrats love the Tea Parties...
Dems accused of tea party tampering
They loved Perot too, and the Republicans love Nader...
| 586 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:59:27am |
re: #583 Walter L. Newton
Who's "you guys." If you noticed, I don't fit in your little exploitive bucket... so back off the "you guys."
it's a partisan thing...these people who worship BO and the feds are killing us
| 587 |
RogueOne Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:00:06am |
re: #573 bratwurst
Suggesting people be forced to listen to all 3 hours of Rush Limbaugh in order to comment is tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment. I would also point out that, quite unlike Shirley Sherrod, Rush ahs a very long public record of polemical remarks.
I seem to remember that the worst of the rush comments were made up. You're entitled to take a partisan sites word for anything you choose, I choose to not support those kinds of sites.
| 588 |
RogueOne Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:00:47am |
re: #574 Killgore Trout
Democrats love the Tea Parties...
Dems accused of tea party tampering
There have been quite a few stories in the same vein over the last few months. Sneaky.
| 589 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:01:43am |
re: #577 Gus 802
200 pounds of wheat? I kind of like the Elders. They've been mostly young women for the past few years and they're pretty darn quiet -- which I like.
That was me 20 years ago.
And now I have to run out to a garage sale for a young woman in Beaverton who has cancer and no insurance.
Have a good morning everyone.
| 590 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:02:00am |
re: #588 RogueOne
There have been quite a few stories in the same vein over the last few months. Sneaky.
All the GOP has to do to stop it is stop funding their campaigns. Stop endorsing them. Stop giving them a tent.
But they don't.
| 591 |
Achilles Tang Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:02:04am |
My opinion on the economic recovery includes thoughts on the mindset of the so called entrepreneurial private sector that the Republican say should have been left alone to do their magic.
I am involved in sourcing various materials/solutions for a development project and I am no longer surprised at the lackadaisical attitude of American businesses, from large to small.
The biggest well known names have their fancy websites with inquiry forms, yet they mostly never respond to an inquiry at all. I think they just want government inquiries.
The smaller companies sell their product entirely on narrow specifications with no customization, and take weeks to respond if at all. Some of them won't even quote shipping costs; that's the buyers problem. Many of them, in the renewable energy field are just selling the tax/rebate programs rather than their hardware or services, or they want to be paid fees up front to tell a prospective customer how much certain standard equipment would cost.
It's not practical for us to source in China, but I am convinced that the Chinese would fall over themselves trying to get new business.
I could go on about where the innovations of today come from, not to forget almost all the equipment for renewable energy, and down to the coffee cups that most of us drink from.
American industry and innovation and energy is not what it was.
| 592 |
RogueOne Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:03:29am |
re: #579 goddamnedfrank
That past performance matters?
Exactly, past performance from all parties. I'm not saying that I refuse to believe Rush called for a civil war just that if a partisan site (MM, Kos, Hot Air, the other MM, Whatever the rightwing verson of media matters is...) tells me the sky is blue I'd still want to check for myself.
| 593 |
webevintage Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:03:41am |
Morning.
So far this morning my favorite stories are Palin taking on PolitiFact.
[Link: www.politifact.com...]
And Krugman going after Paul Ryan and his budget bullshit.
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
| 594 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:04:10am |
here comes Geert....battling the mosque in NYC
[Link: www.expatica.com...]
| 595 |
_RememberTonyC Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:04:14am |
re: #582 palomino
How is it blaming Bush to give Obama credit for a tax cut? Or to acknowledge that any president, including Obama and Bush, wasn't going to sit around, do nothing, and get called Herbert Hoover?
As for blaming Bush, that's not gonna end soon. He deserves a lot. Jesus, you guys still blame Carter for half the world's ills. How is Bush immune?
he isn't immune .... some stuff is Bush's fault. And sadly, President Obama's biggest problem (iran) is the result of carter's foreign policy. but at some point the POTUS has to "man up" and own the situation. He did ASK for this job and claimed to have the answers. So he needs to find them soon or "modify" his approach. He's really good at the politics part, but he HAS the job and needs to do it well.
| 596 |
palomino Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:04:33am |
re: #515 lawhawk
You really think the Dems will raise taxes NOW for anyone other than the top 3%? Why? Because they're deficit hawks, or they want to piss off the middle class?
No, they'll just take us back to Clinton era tax rates on those of us over 200k, and like the 90s it won't be the end of the world.
When I said do nothing, I meant no stimulus, which is what congressional gop wanted last year. But even a Pres. McCain wouldn't have sat around not injecting govt money into a moribund economy. His stim might have looked different, but there would have been one.
| 597 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:05:08am |
re: #549 _RememberTonyC
here's a clip from the Washington Post:
Fifteen percent of self-identified Democrats said cited solid evidence (six percent), suspicions (seven percent) or no opinion (one percent) about whether the President was born in the U.S. Thirty-one percent of Republicans had suspicions (19 percent) or solid evidence (11 percent) that Obama was not born in the country.
So while it shows that more republicans than democrats are birthers, it also shows that perhaps one in three birthers are democrats, and that is not an insignificant percentage. And Independents surely are also represented in the birther movement. So I think all of us need to chill out about only people to the right being crazy on this issue.
Take a look at this....
[Link: i2.cdn.turner.com...]
The numbers are a lot worse for Republicans 31% Try 41% if you believe CNN....
| 598 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:05:20am |
| 599 |
Soap_Man Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:05:30am |
re: #591 Naso Tang
"We used to build things in this country. Now we just stick our hands in the next guy's pocket."
— Frank Sobotka, The Wire
| 600 |
RogueOne Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:05:41am |
re: #590 Fozzie Bear
All the GOP has to do to stop it is stop funding their campaigns. Stop endorsing them. Stop giving them a tent.
But they don't.
I'm talking about the dems use of tea parties to take votes from republicans. There have been accusations in NM, FL, and NY that I've read about lately. Perfectly legal and sneaky.
| 601 |
Stonemason Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:07:06am |
re: #584 Spare O'Lake
They just don't care about the rape victims. What I find especially galling is that some of the biggest right to life advocates are women, whom one would think would be more sensitive to the plight of the female victims.
What I do not understand is how some just can't get that 'choice' includes the choice to keep the child?
I know it's a control issue, I get it, but maybe if the pro-choice movement would focus more on all choices, like Clinton (Right? wasn't he "legal, safe, and rare"?).
I guess both sides have their control and power issues where the human body is concerned. Stay out of my bedroom and my kitchen!
| 602 |
RadicalModerate Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:07:07am |
Let me get this straight.
They're claiming that candidates like Sharron Angle and Rand Paul are Democratic plants?
| 603 |
webevintage Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:07:48am |
re: #596 palomino
You really think the Dems will raise taxes NOW for anyone other than the top 3%?
President Palin said it was so which means it must be true because she never lies or writes shit without actually knowing what she is talking about.
/
| 604 |
palomino Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:08:02am |
re: #520 Spare O'Lake
The stimulus has pushed the day of reckoning a ways down the road for those fortunate enough to have decent jobs or viable businesses. But without hard-nosed solutions to the humongous structural deficits and the ballooning national debt, how can anyone delude themselves into believing that the worst is past?
Agreed. I don't think anyone's really deluded into thinking the worst is behind us, but both parties act that way at different times. Who's got the political will to say Medicare, SS, military spending all need to be on the table, along with tax hikes, in order to tackle the huge problem you outline? No one at this point; probably won't happen until we reach even bigger crisis mode.
| 605 |
Mocking Jay Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:08:04am |
re: #601 Stonemason
Who wants to deny them the right to keep the child?
| 606 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:08:23am |
re: #602 RadicalModerate
Let me get this straight.
They're claiming that candidates like Sharron Angle and Rand Paul are Democratic plants?
Yes, and they're outraged about it! Outrageously outraged.
| 607 |
webevintage Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:09:12am |
re: #606 Charles
Yes, and they're outraged about it! Outrageously outraged.
Is Palin a Dem plant too?
| 608 |
jaunte Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:09:58am |
re: #591 Naso Tang
Making stuff:
One of my clients is asking our company this morning for help in trying to combat a counterfeit manufacturer in China that used to make their product (and in a walled-off part of the factory, the counterfeit). They've switched manufacturing to the US, but the Chinese maker is bringing the product in to Mexico and selling it in to an authorized distributor, and out through a legitimate retailer (and EBay). Plenty of work for lawyers.
| 609 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:10:03am |
| 610 |
_RememberTonyC Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:10:49am |
re: #597 jamesfirecat
Take a look at this...
[Link: i2.cdn.turner.com...]
The numbers are a lot worse for Republicans 31% Try 41% if you believe CNN...
that's fine ..... let's split the difference and agree that while there are MORE Republicans in the birther movement, there are a significant number of Dems and Indys also in that crazy crowd. That is my point. It's not the sole domain of the far right.
| 611 |
_RememberTonyC Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:12:13am |
| 612 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:13:05am |
re: #611 _RememberTonyC
wasn't belgian endive jimmy carter's favorite dem plant?
I thought it was the Iranian qumquat
| 613 |
palomino Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:13:05am |
re: #528 Walter L. Newton
Imagine what it would be like if we didn't have the stimulus.
I'm sure we'd have a balanced budget by now, with 4% unemployment, and no talk of secession/revolution on the right. Damn that Obama!
| 614 |
RogueOne Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:13:36am |
re: #610 _RememberTonyC
that's fine ... let's split the difference and agree that while there are MORE Republicans in the birther movement, there are a significant number of Dems and Indys also in that crazy crowd. That is my point. It's not the sole domain of the far right.
There are no Indy birthers, that's a damn dirty lie!
| 615 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:14:29am |
re: #610 _RememberTonyC
that's fine ... let's split the difference and agree that while there are MORE Republicans in the birther movement, there are a significant number of Dems and Indys also in that crazy crowd. That is my point. It's not the sole domain of the far right.
You won't see any actual political figures pushing the issue except on the right. There have been GOP senators and representatives, candidates, and talking heads pushing the birther meme.
You will find no symmetry in the public support for the birthers. You'll just find that some on each side have sipped the kool-aid that the right is serving.
| 616 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:14:35am |
re: #610 _RememberTonyC
that's fine ... let's split the difference and agree that while there are MORE Republicans in the birther movement, there are a significant number of Dems and Indys also in that crazy crowd. That is my point. It's not the sole domain of the far right.
Looks like to rough it, 1 in every five dems, one in every 3 indies and in every two and a half Republicans.
So no, not the sole domain of the right, but on the other hand, the right is the only one pushing for legislation about this issue last time I checked....
| 617 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:14:44am |
re: #613 palomino
I'm sure we'd have a balanced budget by now, with 4% unemployment, and no talk of secession/revolution on the right. Damn that Obama!
the dems are failing badly...snark all you want
| 618 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:16:30am |
re: #616 jamesfirecat
Looks like to rough it, 1 in every five dems, one in every 3 indies and in every two and a half Republicans.
So no, not the sole domain of the right, but on the other hand, the right is the only one pushing for legislation about this issue last time I checked...
you tax dollars at work....Mickey Mouse legislation doomed to failure....who could give a fuck at this point?
| 619 |
RogueOne Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:17:16am |
I have to do a little equipment repair and then I'm already taking off for the weekend. I have a cold 6 pack waiting for me by the pool, enjoy the weekend folks.
| 620 |
palomino Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:18:03am |
re: #583 Walter L. Newton
Who's "you guys." If you noticed, I don't fit in your little exploitive bucket... so back off the "you guys."
OK, those guys still blame Carter for all sorts of problems. Which means that blaming Bush isn't likely to end soon, especially given the conditions when he left office (which, fair or not, happens to be one of the ways we judge our presidents.)
| 621 |
_RememberTonyC Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:19:31am |
re: #616 jamesfirecat
Looks like to rough it, 1 in every five dems, one in every 3 indies and in every two and a half Republicans.
So no, not the sole domain of the right, but on the other hand, the right is the only one pushing for legislation about this issue last time I checked...
do not excuse your own side because the other guys are worse. you have no problem painting tea partiers with a broad brush, so apply the same standards to your own bad apples. If they support the movement, they bear some responsibility for it.
| 622 |
palomino Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:19:52am |
re: #588 RogueOne
There have been quite a few stories in the same vein over the last few months. Sneaky.
It's Operation Chaos, Democratic style. Dirty tricks didn't end with Nixon, or with Limbaugh.
| 623 |
_RememberTonyC Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:21:23am |
re: #615 Fozzie Bear
You won't see any actual political figures pushing the issue except on the right. There have been GOP senators and representatives, candidates, and talking heads pushing the birther meme.
You will find no symmetry in the public support for the birthers. You'll just find that some on each side have sipped the kool-aid that the right is serving.
there are dems and indys in the movement too .... apply your logic vis-a-vis the tea party to your own bad seeds and demand accountability from THEM too.
| 624 |
palomino Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:24:09am |
re: #595 _RememberTonyC
he isn't immune ... some stuff is Bush's fault. And sadly, President Obama's biggest problem (iran) is the result of carter's foreign policy. but at some point the POTUS has to "man up" and own the situation. He did ASK for this job and claimed to have the answers. So he needs to find them soon or "modify" his approach. He's really good at the politics part, but he HAS the job and needs to do it well.
First, every president blames his predecessor. Reagan did it to Carter, Clinton to Bush Sr., even W to Clinton, so this is nothing new. And when you inherit the worst conditions since the Great Depression, you're not likely to let the public forget it.
As for the answers, I think he's desperately searching for them. What do you suggest the answers are?
| 625 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:24:42am |
re: #623 _RememberTonyC
there are dems and indys in the movement too ... apply your logic vis-a-vis the tea party to your own bad seeds and demand accountability from THEM too.
Name a DNC politician who is or has advanced the birther meme, besides Hillary Clinton. She's the only one, and frankly, I'm no fan of hers.
There are many on the right.
| 626 |
palomino Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:25:39am |
re: #603 webevintage
President Palin said it was so which means it must be true because she never lies or writes shit without actually knowing what she is talking about.
/
She's the President of Real America, right? I wouldn't know as I live in Atheist Sodomyland, aka SoCal.
| 627 |
palomino Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:26:29am |
| 628 |
palomino Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:28:34am |
re: #617 albusteve
the dems are failing badly...snark all you want
so, we'd be OK if only the gop had stayed in office to clean up their mess? because the person to drive you out of a ditch is the one who drove you in?
| 629 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:30:20am |
re: #628 palomino
so, we'd be OK if only the gop had stayed in office to clean up their mess? because the person to drive you out of a ditch is the one who drove you in?
No... because Bush wasn't up for reelection... anything would have been better.
| 630 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:41:59am |
re: #621 _RememberTonyC
do not excuse your own side because the other guys are worse. you have no problem painting tea partiers with a broad brush, so apply the same standards to your own bad apples. If they support the movement, they bear some responsibility for it.
You are correct sir that I should not excuse my own side because the other guys are worse.
I condemn Birthers of every political stripe.
What more would you like me to do?
| 631 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:44:28am |
The point is, there has only ever been ONE major democratic politician who is a birther, and that would be Hillary Clinton.
And I can't fucking stand that craven excuse for a human being.
| 632 |
Stonemason Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:48:03am |
re: #631 Fozzie Bear
The point is, there has only ever been ONE major democratic politician who is a birther, and that would be Hillary Clinton.
And I can't fucking stand that craven excuse for a human being.
so because Fozzie can't stand her, she's not a politician really and does not count when it comes to looking for a politician that is a birther which was not the point to begin with, just more obfuscation....
gotcha.
| 633 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:50:12am |
re: #631 Fozzie Bear
The point is, there has only ever been ONE major democratic politician who is a birther, and that would be Hillary Clinton.
And I can't fucking stand that craven excuse for a human being.
heh...me either
| 634 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:51:02am |
re: #632 Stonemason
so because Fozzie can't stand her, she's not a politician really and does not count when it comes to looking for a politician that is a birther which was not the point to begin with, just more obfuscation...
gotcha.
The point is, she is the only one on the left. There are dozens on the right.
But I see that you wish to make this personal. Seek help. It's a blog.
| 635 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:51:05am |
re: #628 palomino
so, we'd be OK if only the gop had stayed in office to clean up their mess? because the person to drive you out of a ditch is the one who drove you in?
I'm not hung up on that shit...the dems have had 4 years to get their act together and they haven't
| 636 |
webevintage Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:51:49am |
DeMint Tries To Rewrite History: ‘This Was Not Bush’s Recession’
[Link: thinkprogress.org...]
In a recent report, two leading economists “empirically proved” that the Obama’s stimulus package and other interventionist measures “helped avert a second Depression.” Without the stimulus package, GDP would have been 2 percent lower and an additional 2.7 million jobs would have been lost, they found. Meanwhile, “On every major measurement” of economic growth, “the country lost ground during Bush’s two terms,” the National Journal’s Ron Brownstein observed, citing Census data.
| 637 |
webevintage Fri, Aug 6, 2010 9:54:35am |
I think we all missed the good reports on both Medicare and Social Security yesterday:
[Link: www.ssa.gov...]
[Link: www.cms.gov...]
| 638 |
Cforchange Fri, Aug 6, 2010 10:07:56am |
To the topic of life, does anyone think that abortion medical control will be the end. Once the start of life issue is conquered, intervention of end of life legislation will start. There will be significant meddling in our personal medical affairs and that is the strongest point of RM's discussion.
While virtually all GOP candidates across the country this cycle are professing to be pro life, they each should explain what they intend to do with their belief. A claim such as this requires full disclosure, especially before you gift them with a vote.
To the Illinois voter above, conceding a vote to any old Republican is exactly why we are at this juncture. Before you cast your vote - please confirm that your candidate is reliably fiscally skilled - make sure he didn't make his career from a government funded activity including a faith based funded initiative or offshoot. Sorry - money made this way indicates opportunism not skill. Honesty while critical is only a component of an effective leader. It's beyond time for the true business grizzlies to step into government leadership but they can't get there in the GOP, the current infrastructure won't permit anyone but those in the "christian clique" to get anywhere near. A part regular church attendee myself - I know no one in this clique.
For those who cherish privacy and individual freedom - voting has become simply one big compromise. We have been manipulated for years and now with votes like that of the Illinois voter, many will knowingly participate in the biggest GOP hypocrisy of our lifetime which likely now could be legislating life at all costs while tolerating an ineffective safety net for the innocent living.
Be thankful your parents were competent and be more thoughtful for those who arrive lacking that asset.
| 639 |
_RememberTonyC Fri, Aug 6, 2010 10:52:33am |
re: #630 jamesfirecat
You are correct sir that I should not excuse my own side because the other guys are worse.
I condemn Birthers of every political stripe.
What more would you like me to do?
that's good enough for me .... and from now on, remember that there are crazies all over the place and acting like they're ALL on the other political side prevents you from recognizing that the other side does have some LEGITIMATE points to make as well.
| 640 |
_RememberTonyC Fri, Aug 6, 2010 10:54:28am |
re: #631 Fozzie Bear
The point is, there has only ever been ONE major democratic politician who is a birther, and that would be Hillary Clinton.
And I can't fucking stand that craven excuse for a human being.
i'm not just talking about politicians, but you seem to believe i am. and by the way, clinton has done a good job under the circumstances.
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