Anti-Muslim Bigotry Explodes Across the Nation

The idea that the opposition to the Park51 Islamic community center in lower Manhattan is based on its proximity to the “sacred” Ground Zero is nothing more than a blatant lie.

The proof is right in front of everyone, because the Bigot Brigade, empowered by their success in spreading populist hatred against the Park51 project, are now demonstrating against mosques in many other locations in the United States. And since they don’t have the “hallowed ground” excuse in places like Sheboygan, Wisconsin, and Murfreesboro, Tennessee, they’re just letting their paranoia and prejudice hang out in front of the world: Battles Around Nation Over Proposed Mosques.

At one time, neighbors who did not want mosques in their backyards said their concerns were over traffic, parking and noise — the same reasons they might object to a church or a synagogue. But now the gloves are off.

In all of the recent conflicts, opponents have said their problem is Islam itself. They quote passages from the Koran and argue that even the most Americanized Muslim secretly wants to replace the Constitution with Islamic Shariah law.

These local skirmishes make clear that there is now widespread debate about whether the best way to uphold America’s democratic values is to allow Muslims the same religious freedom enjoyed by other Americans, or to pull away the welcome mat from a faith seen as a singular threat.

“What’s different is the heat, the volume, the level of hostility,” said Ihsan Bagby, associate professor of Islamic studies at the University of Kentucky. “It’s one thing to oppose a mosque because traffic might increase, but it’s different when you say these mosques are going to be nurturing terrorist bombers, that Islam is invading, that civilization is being undermined by Muslims.”

Feeding the resistance is a growing cottage industry of authors and bloggers — some of them former Muslims — who are invited to speak at rallies, sell their books and testify in churches. Their message is that Islam is inherently violent and incompatible with America.

That last paragraph is very interesting, because the two most visible representatives of this “cottage industry” are none other than Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer — and both of these people were quoted uncritically by the New York Times when they needed some negative quotes about me for their profile piece last year, without any context on who they are or what they believe.

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137 comments
1 pharmmajor  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 10:51:39am

I said it before, I say it again: fuck. these. racist. morons.

2 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 10:51:58am

The continued insistence of so many people that all of Islam is a monolithic block, the refusal to understand the differences between Muslims, and the lack of support for those moderate, even liberal Muslims who represent the best chance of actually defeating radical Islam baffles me.

We’re not going to kill every Muslim on the planet. We shouldn’t, of course, commit such a genocide, but even if we were bloodthirsty morons we couldn’t.

The best hope against radical Islam is secular values and moderate Muslims.

The Park51 project represents moderate Muslims. Most US mosques represent moderate Muslims. By supporting them, and their integration into secular society, we fight back against radical Islam.

3 brookly red  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 10:52:33am

Wow, mixed with anti illegal fever & a poor economy, the perfect storm so to speak. It seems odd though that it is happening now and not directly after 9/11… I question the timing.

4 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 10:53:04am

re: #3 brookly red

Huh?

5 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 10:54:49am

re: #3 brookly red

Wow, mixed with anti illegal fever & a poor economy, the perfect storm so to speak. It seems odd though that it is happening now and not directly after 9/11… I question the timing.

Let’s just make a wild guess… this is some conservatives idea of the best way to win an election? Nah… that couldn’t be it.

6 mj  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 10:55:05am

Check out this campaign ad:

Paladino TV: I’ll Stop the Mosque

7 Alexzander  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 10:56:07am

re: #2 Obdicut

I had to log in just to say that was very well said.

8 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 10:56:24am

Carl Paladino has already been exposed as a racist piece of shit. These are the people leading the opposition to Park51.

9 brookly red  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 10:56:35am

re: #3 brookly red

Wow, mixed with anti illegal fever & a poor economy, the perfect storm so to speak. It seems odd though that it is happening now and not directly after 9/11… I question the timing.

2 separate toughs sorry… the first was a general comment on the state of affairs. the 2nd I am questing why the rise in aint-Muslimness now and not a few years back… I can see how that was hard to follow.

10 Gus  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 10:56:51am

re: #6 mj

Check out this campaign ad:

Paladino TV: I’ll Stop the Mosque

[Video]

Wow, a genuine fascist.

11 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 10:57:35am

re: #9 brookly red

2 separate toughs sorry… the first was a general comment on the state of affairs. the 2nd I am questing why the rise in aint-Muslimness now and not a few years back… I can see how that was hard to follow.

I got ya.
:)

12 Gus  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 10:57:41am

Islam did not attack the World Trade Center, Al-Qaeda did.

13 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 10:59:44am

re: #12 Gus 802

Islam did not attack the World Trade Center, Al-Qaeda did.

It’s so freaking sad that this has to be said.

And frustrating as hell knowing it won’t sink in with many…

14 ihateronpaul  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 10:59:45am

Just replace “we’re heading down a path to socialism” with “we’re heading down a path to shariah law.” but the latter is even MORE off-base.

The world is really seeing a great side of America right now, the side that bigotly opposes the building of houses of worship, because all religions are equal but apparently “some” religions are more equal than others.

makes me sick.

15 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:00:38am

I just said it on one of Thanos’ pages and I’ll say it again here:

The problem with mainstreaming bigotry & racism is that the intolerance won’t confine itself to one ethnic group or religion, it will spread. This is why I found the ADL’s stance on Park51 so appalling—surely they, of all people, would be cognizant of this.

The Republican/Tea Party is playing with fire. Their whorish pandering to the basest aspects of human nature and their calls to shred parts of our Constitution—all while wrapping themselves in the flag and claiming to be patriots—is beneath contempt.

16 brookly red  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:01:35am

re: #13 Varek Raith

It’s so freaking sad that this has to be said.

And frustrating as hell knowing it won’t sink in with many…

well it took a long time to figure out that German did not automatically equal Nazi also…

17 pharmmajor  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:02:14am

re: #15 CuriousLurker


The Republican/Tea Party is playing with fire. Their whorish pandering to the basest aspects of human nature and their calls to shred parts of our Constitution—all while wrapping themselves in the flag and claiming to be patriots—is beneath contempt.

Amen. And I hope they pay for their misdeeds soon.

18 HoosierHoops  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:02:39am

re: #12 Gus 802

Islam did not attack the World Trade Center, Al-Qaeda did.

And how many times did Bush say the same thing? Yet the rightwing will not accept this…Thanks for that post

19 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:02:45am

re: #16 brookly red

well it took a long time to figure out that German did not automatically equal Nazi also…

It did?
:(

20 webevintage  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:03:01am

Study: Contemporary Mosques Are A Deterrent To The Spread Of Terrorism
[Link: thinkprogress.org…]

21 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:03:23am

re: #16 brookly red

well it took a long time to figure out that German did not automatically equal Nazi also…

Not a good comparison. Germany, as a nation, really did fight with us. Muslims are not a nation, nor a unified group in any way.

22 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:03:52am

re: #3 brookly red

Wow, mixed with anti illegal fever & a poor economy, the perfect storm so to speak. It seems odd though that it is happening now and not directly after 9/11… I question the timing.

I think there are a couple of factors. The American “conservatives” and the Eurofascists took a while to start cooperating. The Eurofascists needed some time to adapt/hide their rhetoric about Jews and Israel and the American “conservatives” needed some time to adjust to the European anti-freedom talking points about Islam being an ideology that should be outlawed instead of a religion with Constitutional protection. The rise of the libertarian nuts like Beck and the Tea Parties helped out too with historical revisionism and anti-constitutional ideas presented as “patriotic”. This wasn’t possible a few years ago.

This is why the counterjihad movement just doesn’t have much public support anymore. It was a short lived fad like that went away with the neocons.

23 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:04:07am

My head hurts.
Later gators!

24 brookly red  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:04:24am

re: #21 Obdicut

Not a good comparison. Germany, as a nation, really did fight with us. Muslims are not a nation, nor a unified group in any way.

hey it was the closest one available…

25 tnguitarist  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:05:36am

re: #3 brookly red

Wow, mixed with anti illegal fever & a poor economy, the perfect storm so to speak. It seems odd though that it is happening now and not directly after 9/11… I question the timing.

That’s what I’ve been saying. You have to question the timing. Why now, all of a sudden? I wonder if places that drum this stuff up will ever have to answer for it?

26 brookly red  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:06:40am

re: #25 tnguitarist

That’s what I’ve been saying. You have to question the timing. Why now, all of a sudden? I wonder if places that drum this stuff up will ever have to answer for it?

no, I think it is the other way around ;)

27 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:07:06am

re: #25 tnguitarist

That’s what I’ve been saying. You have to question the timing. Why now, all of a sudden? I wonder if places that drum this stuff up will ever have to answer for it?

Am I blowing hot air here… I suggested above… “this is some conservatives idea of the best way to win an election” Anyone consider the possibility?

28 abbyadams  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:07:12am

One of Andrew Sullivan’s readers went to dinner with their “Republican” neighbo

rs (they deliberately made the distinction between the traditional Republican definition and what these people are), and related how these people felt about the mosque (that is not a mosque.) When the reader asked these neighbors if Muslims should be denied the right to work that any new workspace built on Ground Zero, (as this might lead to people worshipping actually on the spot where the Twin Towers stood,) they were greeted with “sacred ground” talking points. The reader closed with this:

These people are my friends and shall remain so. But I wonder today: Have they been led in this direction or have they always held these views and were waiting for affirmation of them from those they see as national leaders.

I fear the answer to that question.

I think the answer to that question is pretty apparent.

29 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:07:21am

re: #24 brookly red

hey it was the closest one available…

It’s not close at all, though. About a third of those fighting for the US in the ETO in WWII had German-American ancestry. I don’t know of any German-American group— beyond the Bund— that was prevented from building or doing something post-WWII.

Can you give an example?

30 brookly red  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:08:02am

re: #22 Killgore Trout

I think there are a couple of factors. The American “conservatives” and the Eurofascists took a while to start cooperating. The Eurofascists needed some time to adapt/hide their rhetoric about Jews and Israel and the American “conservatives” needed some time to adjust to the European anti-freedom talking points about Islam being an ideology that should be outlawed instead of a religion with Constitutional protection. The rise of the libertarian nuts like Beck and the Tea Parties helped out too with historical revisionism and anti-constitutional ideas presented as “patriotic”. This wasn’t possible a few years ago.

This is why the counterjihad movement just doesn’t have much public support anymore. It was a short lived fad like that went away with the neocons.

lemmie think on that… there is a lot going on.

31 tnguitarist  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:08:17am

re: #27 Walter L. Newton

Am I blowing hot air here… I suggested above… “this is some conservatives idea of the best way to win an election” Anyone consider the possibility?

No, you are correct.

32 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:08:46am

re: #2 Obdicut

We’re not going to kill every Muslim on the planet. We shouldn’t, of course, commit such a genocide, but even if we were bloodthirsty morons we couldn’t.

And that right there is the key point about where this type of logic leads. If Islam is a political mindset (not a religion), and every Muslim is a potentially dangerous subversive, then how do you neutralize the threat? Simply taking away Muslims’ first amendment rights won’t solve the problem, so the only option left is to get rid of them—either by imprisoning all of them, exiling them, or killing them.

33 brookly red  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:09:21am

re: #29 Obdicut

It’s not close at all, though. About a third of those fighting for the US in the ETO in WWII had German-American ancestry. I don’t know of any German-American group— beyond the Bund— that was prevented from building or doing something post-WWII.

Can you give an example?

yes, some people still won’t buy German cars, sheesh don’t nit pick…

34 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:13:24am

re: #33 brookly red

yes, some people still won’t buy German cars, sheesh don’t nit pick…

It’s not a nitpick, dude. But yes, some people remained bigoted against Germans their whole lives. But it wasn’t a national thing, at all.

Not a good comparison.

35 brookly red  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:14:03am

re: #34 Obdicut

It’s not a nitpick, dude. But yes, some people remained bigoted against Germans their whole lives. But it wasn’t a national thing, at all.

Not a good comparison.

so sue me.

36 Randall Gross  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:14:51am

I was interviewed for that NYT piece, they quoted the shrieking harpy instead, giving voice to a bigot in hopes it would sell more papers.

37 SpaceJesus  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:17:19am

oh no, the marxist mexican muslims are coming, whatever will i do

38 TedStriker  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:18:30am

re: #36 Thanos

I was interviewed for that NYT piece, they quoted the shrieking harpy instead, giving voice to a bigot in hopes it would sell more papers.

You know what they say…”If it bleeds, it leads”

39 Gus  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:18:50am

re: #37 SpaceJesus

oh no, the marxist mexican muslims are coming, whatever will i do

With Persian tattoos and “BMWs”!

40 brookly red  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:19:37am

re: #37 SpaceJesus

oh no, the marxist mexican muslims are coming, whatever will i do

buy gold and keep it in pig skin pouches?

41 HoosierHoops  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:19:55am

re: #36 Thanos

I was interviewed for that NYT piece, they quoted the shrieking harpy instead, giving voice to a bigot in hopes it would sell more papers.

Hey..Hope you are doing better..Healthwise.. I had an article written about me in the Napa Register years ago..They got just about everything wrong in the story about me.. I have always taken everything I read in the rags with a grain of salt from that point forward…

42 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:20:52am

re: #37 SpaceJesus

re: #39 Gus 802

Gotta love you guys for making me laugh when I’m feeling angry & disgusted over all the rampant stupidity. ;o)

43 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:21:19am

re: #35 brookly red

so sue me.

No thanks, I’d rather just point out that your comparison is really off.

44 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:32:37am

re: #17 pharmmajor

Amen. And I hope they pay for their misdeeds soon.

Seconded.

45 Laughing Gas  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:38:53am

re: #8 Charles

Carl Paladino has already been exposed as a racist piece of shit. These are the people leading the opposition to Park51.

He probably uses “mulignan” a lot in his everyday speech, like his fictional compatriot Tony Soprano. Also, it’s funny how the liberal media uncritically gives credibility to the likes of Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer, who must be raking in the $$$ from these controversies.

From a behind the scenes look at the tea party movement

A good piece of mail gets its message across in 10 seconds. Television gives you 30 seconds, maybe. We’re playing to the reptilian brain rather than the logic centers, so we look for key words and images to leverage the intense rage and anxiety of white working-class conservatives. In other words, I talk to the same part of your brain that causes road rage. Ross Perot’s big mistake was his failure to connect his pie charts with the primordial brain. Two years after Perot’s first White House run the GOP figured this out, and thus was born the “angry white man” and with him a 54-seat swing in the House of Representatives.

So we finally have a confession from a “conservative” that the modern right’s political approach is largely about emotion rather than logic or reason.

46 palomino  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:41:09am

re: #25 tnguitarist

That’s what I’ve been saying. You have to question the timing. Why now, all of a sudden? I wonder if places that drum this stuff up will ever have to answer for it?

I “blame” Bush for the timing. W actually did a good job of making it clear that we were not at war with Islam, and that anti-Muslim bigotry had no place in American discourse. He deserves credit.

Unfortunately there is no such sober voice among GOP leaders today. And the hysterical sheep on the right certainly aren’t gonna listen to Obama, since he’s “one of them” anyway, or any other Dem for that matter.

47 palomino  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:43:12am

re: #27 Walter L. Newton

Am I blowing hot air here… I suggested above… “this is some conservatives idea of the best way to win an election” Anyone consider the possibility?

Surely a possibility. Wouldn’t be the first time a minority group was demonized to rally the majority to vote.

Some would argue the same about the AZ bill, as well as gop’s southern strategy.

48 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:48:15am

re: #27 Walter L. Newton

Am I blowing hot air here… I suggested above… “this is some conservatives idea of the best way to win an election” Anyone consider the possibility?

I certainly think there are politicians who are riding the wave.

49 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:50:01am

re: #27 Walter L. Newton

Am I blowing hot air here… I suggested above… “this is some conservatives idea of the best way to win an election” Anyone consider the possibility?

Not in the main. I think the GOP in much more likely to focus on economic issues.

50 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:50:50am

re: #33 brookly red

yes, some people still won’t buy German cars, sheesh don’t nit pick…

German car companies actually do still have blood on their hands. It’s not as though German industry was an innocent bystander.

OTOH, while I still don’t like to buy German, I don’t assume that Lutheran churches are plotting the restoration of the Reich.

(And of late I’ve taken to buying German on the principle that it’s better than buying from China. YOu have to balance the buying from the company that used slave labor in the forties against the buying from the company that is using slave labor now.)

51 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 11:51:11am

re: #37 SpaceJesus

oh no, the marxist mexican muslims are coming, whatever will i do

Eat a halal taco and relax.

52 elizajane  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 12:03:49pm

Re. the not-all-Germans-were-Nazis comparison; a fairer one would be Not-all-Japanese-are-Spies, perhaps. The Germans were not nearby and were not the immediate cause of our going to war. Anti-German sentiment persisted for a good long time in the countries that they actually occupied or bombed. We were only bombed by the Japanese, and only at Pearl Harbor.

53 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 12:13:18pm

Ughughugh… this is so creepily reminiscent of the uprising of the extreme right in Europe a couple of years ago in forms like the German “Pro”-groups (Pro Köln, Pro NRW), the Austrian FPÖ (making slogans like “(At) Home instead of Islam”) and BZÖ

54 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 12:35:26pm

re: #53 000G

Ughughugh… this is so creepily reminiscent of the uprising of the extreme right in Europe a couple of years ago in forms like the German “Pro”-groups (Pro Köln, Pro NRW), the Austrian FPÖ (making slogans like “(At) Home instead of Islam”) and BZÖ

It definitely is reminiscent of that — and there’s a reason. The anti-Muslim bigotry of the European far right is being very deliberately promoted in the United States by people like Frank Gaffney, Robert Spencer, Pamela Geller, and a small but highly obsessed group of “anti-jihad” bloggers. It looks like the same thing because in many ways, it is.

55 SueG  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 1:01:47pm

that’s just sick

56 schlimmerkerl  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 1:31:37pm

Full disclosure: my wife is an actual German national. Her family is ardently non-fascist… now. Back in the day, though, the older generation (now almost all passed) were equally enthusiastic party members. Close relatives in the Luftwaffe, etc. Point is, fascism was a very popular European movement c. 1920-1940. Is my wife guilty? No. Her older relatives— and almost all of Germany? Certainly. Read “Hitler’s Willing Executioners” by Daniel Goldhagen.

Similarly, and despite reluctance to agree on any point whatever with reactionary sentiments, opinions and personalities, there is much evidence to suggest that the “Muslim In the Street” would agree with many of the things they (conservatives) suggest—
• Establishment of Sharia law
• Destruction of Israel— and all Jews in general
• Establishment of a new Caliphate
and many other things repugnant or antithetical to western civilization.

The solution is, of course, not a “Final” one as suggested above, but prudence, vigilance, and, yes, some restrictions. And the minute violent Islamic movements worldwide— in the middle and near east, Indonesia, Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan— lay down their arms and reject murder as a solution to their problems is the minute that the Peace of Allah will be upon them— and upon us all.

57 Radical Rafe  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 1:47:03pm

So, exactly what concerns and opinions about Islam, Muslims, jihad, dawa, and all that can people have before being labeled as bigots?

58 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 1:47:42pm

re: #57 Radical Rafe

What does any of that have to do with the Park51 project, or don’t you care?

59 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 1:50:27pm

And what part of this is difficult for you to understand: Americans who happen to be Muslims have a constitutional right to freedom of religion, and you cannot take that away from them, much as you might like to.

60 kamala  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 1:54:54pm

You’d think the NY Times could at least find a Muslim to interview who HASN’T expressed disdain for this country…

Ihsan Bagby, who in this article laments the idea that “civilization is being undermined by Muslims,” once said Muslims:

“can never be full citizens of this country [the U.S.], because there is no way we can be fully committed to the institutions and ideologies of this country.”

In 2001, Bagby was the lead author of a published report, “The Mosque in America: A National Portrait.”

See [Link: www.cair.com…]

In it, 77% of Muslims in the survey said they “somewhat agree” or “strongly agree” that “America is an immoral, corrupt society.” (p. 31)

61 Radical Rafe  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 1:55:09pm

I do care. I’m not against the Park 51 project. And I’m also not opposed the new mosque/complex being considered right here in my little corner of Middle Tennessee —- with one teeny tiny little exception about Muslim burial practices. As for Park 51: If all the legal and bureaucratic hoops were jumped through, then it’s private property and the owners should be allowed to do what they want with it. I understand people’s resentment on sentimental or emotional grounds, etc.

Quoting Bill “The Butcher” Cutting in Gangs Of New York : “It’s fair. A touch indelicate, but fair.” See how I turned that around on you?

I have answered your question. Care to answer mine?

62 Radical Rafe  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 1:55:59pm

re: #59 Charles

I wouldn’t like to. But still no answer to my first, elementary question.

63 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 1:56:58pm

re: #61 Radical Rafe

You mean that absurd whining victimization ploy that people are impinging on your rights, by criticizing the open bigotry behind this anti-mosque insanity?

Did that answer your question?

64 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 1:57:10pm

there may be a new wrinkle in the controversy over the nyc mosque project. apparently there may be a question as to who actually owns the building in question.

[Link: www.myfoxny.com…]

65 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 1:58:09pm

re: #64 _RememberTonyC

Oooh, scary. This fear of the day brought to you by Fox News and the New York Post.

66 Radical Rafe  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 1:58:52pm

re: #63 Charles

Nope. What concerns can Americans voice about Islam, Muslims, jihad, and dawa before they cross your line and get labeled bigots? There it is. Let me have it. I want to learn.

67 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 1:59:30pm

re: #66 Radical Rafe

Sorry, that’s all the answer I have for your bullshit question.

68 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:00:10pm

re: #65 Charles

Oooh, scary. This fear of the day brought to you by Fox News and the New York Post.

look charles, i do not oppose the project and never have. but if the ownership of the building is in question, that is a legitimate angle of the story.

69 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:01:13pm

re: #68 _RememberTonyC

It’s going to turn out to be another fake outrage. Guaranteed. The sources for this story have been pumping out the bigotry non-stop about this project, and have zero credibility left.

70 Radical Rafe  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:02:16pm

re: #67 Charles

Right, then. It was just and honest question, Charles.

71 Radical Rafe  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:02:37pm

re: #70 Radical Rafe

PIMF

an honest question.

72 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:03:06pm

re: #70 Radical Rafe

So when did you stop beating your wife?

73 Gus  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:03:18pm

re: #64 _RememberTonyC

there may be a new wrinkle in the controversy over the nyc mosque project. apparently there may be a question as to who actually owns the building in question.

[Link: www.myfoxny.com…]

Looks like it’s just pending finalization of property deals with Con Edison.

Nothing to see here.

74 Radical Rafe  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:05:24pm

re: #72 Charles

Nice.

But I don’t follow…

75 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:05:35pm

re: #69 Charles

It’s going to turn out to be another fake outrage. Guaranteed. The sources for this story have been pumping out the bigotry non-stop about this project, and have zero credibility left.

perhaps so … but i brought it up with no axe to grind and i have no dog in the fight. but if it turns out that the ownership of the building is in question, that is a legitimate angle on the story.

76 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:06:26pm

re: #60 kamala

[…] 77% of Muslims in the survey said they “somewhat agree” or “strongly agree” that “America is an immoral, corrupt society.” (p. 31)

Funny, I’m betting if you put that question to right-wing Christians, the number would be more like 97%.

77 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:06:29pm

re: #57 Radical Rafe

So, exactly what concerns and opinions about Islam, Muslims, jihad, dawa, and all that can people have before being labeled as bigots?

Bleah. Victim on aisle 57!

78 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:07:04pm

re: #76 Cato the Elder

Funny, I’m betting if you put that question to right-wing Christians, the number would be more like 97%.

I believe that’s part of the GOP platform, in fact.

79 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:10:24pm

re: #73 Gus 802

Looks like it’s just pending finalization of property deals with Con Edison.

Nothing to see here.

The developer has a purchase option, and he’s using it. This is not “operating under false pretenses.” He’s exercising his guaranteed purchase option, but the deal is not yet finalized. Sure enough, it’s another completely fake outrage.

I don’t even know why I bother reading these stories any more.

80 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:10:25pm

Rafe, would you mind telling us what’s wrong with Muslim burial practices?

It sounds really scary and everything. C’mon, share your fears.

81 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:13:32pm

re: #75 _RememberTonyC

perhaps so … but i brought it up with no axe to grind and i have no dog in the fight. but if it turns out that the ownership of the building is in question, that is a legitimate angle on the story.

I’d agree that if there really were some impropriety it would be legitimate news. This isn’t it, though; it’s just another distortion by the Distortion Factory.

82 Gus  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:15:05pm

re: #79 Charles

The developer has a purchase option, and he’s using it. This is not “operating under false pretenses.” Sure enough, it’s another completely fake outrage.

I don’t even know why I bother reading these stories any more.

Yep. Many times I’ve started development design on properties in the past before any purchase agreements have been signed. It’s not uncommon for developers/buyers to start the preliminary application process with a municipality before finalizing any deal.

83 Fozzie Bear  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:15:29pm

Unsurprisingly, anti-Muslim bigotry explodes here, as well as across the nation.

84 Radical Rafe  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:20:50pm

re: #80 Cato the Elder

Well to my knowledge they forbid the use of embalming, caskets and vaults —- they wrap the body in cloth and lower it into the ground. (I have no objections or issues with this if that their custom and their practice.) But here, where they were seeking permits to use part of their newly acquired property as a cemetery, approximately 30% of the surrounding households use well water and voiced health and sanitation concerns about such unpleasant things as a) rotting flesh contaminating household water supplies, and b) coyotes, wildcats and the occasional bear are still seen around here and have been known to dig up bodies of buried pets and livestock if they detected a scent.

The concerns may turn out to be nothing. But if I were them, I’d want to know too.

85 Radical Rafe  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:22:48pm

re: #84 Radical Rafe

And I hasten to add, Cato, that I’m not afraid, and none of it scary.

86 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:25:31pm

re: #81 Charles

I’d agree that if there really were some impropriety it would be legitimate news. This isn’t it, though; it’s just another distortion by the Distortion Factory.

the traffic between these two threads is like the 405 at 5pm … but I think we are basically in agreement here. Just let the transcation be done above board and I’m OK with it.

87 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:27:26pm

a swarm from another place.

just a guess.

88 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:30:39pm

re: #84 Radical Rafe

Well to my knowledge they forbid the use of embalming, caskets and vaults —- they wrap the body in cloth and lower it into the ground. (I have no objections or issues with this if that their custom and their practice.) But here, where they were seeking permits to use part of their newly acquired property as a cemetery, approximately 30% of the surrounding households use well water and voiced health and sanitation concerns about such unpleasant things as a) rotting flesh contaminating household water supplies, and b) coyotes, wildcats and the occasional bear are still seen around here and have been known to dig up bodies of buried pets and livestock if they detected a scent.

The concerns may turn out to be nothing. But if I were them, I’d want to know too.

I think there’s some regulation in the cemetery and burial business. Permits and stuff.

May I ask if this had actually come up in the public discussion about the mosque being built, or if you just read up on Muslim burial practices and got worried?

89 Radical Rafe  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:32:05pm

re: #88 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes you may, and yes it did. I wouldn’t have even thought of it had it not run in one of my county’s local papers.

90 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:32:12pm

re: #2 Obdicut

That’s quite true. Every time I go out shopping in Oakland, either at TJ’s or Berkeley Bowl, I see Muslim women, dressed modestly, but also with MP3’s, blue tooths, wearing medium length skirts, with bare arms, wearing make-up, etc. I suspect in a few generations, Muslim Americans will painlessly blend into American society while maintaining their own sense of culture. As it should be.

91 harlequinade  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:32:19pm

re: #57 Radical Rafe

So, exactly what concerns and opinions about Islam, Muslims, jihad, dawa, and all that can people have before being labeled as bigots?

On a similar note, what concerns and opinions about Christianity, Christians, bombing abortion clinics, denying science, subjugating women and generally pushing a new dark age before being labeled “progressives” and told to leave America because it’s God’s country?

And - exactly - when did you stop beating your wife?

92 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:33:42pm

re: #84 Radical Rafe

Well to my knowledge they forbid the use of embalming, caskets and vaults —- they wrap the body in cloth and lower it into the ground. (I have no objections or issues with this if that their custom and their practice.) But here, where they were seeking permits to use part of their newly acquired property as a cemetery, approximately 30% of the surrounding households use well water and voiced health and sanitation concerns about such unpleasant things as a) rotting flesh contaminating household water supplies, and b) coyotes, wildcats and the occasional bear are still seen around here and have been known to dig up bodies of buried pets and livestock if they detected a scent.

The concerns may turn out to be nothing. But if I were them, I’d want to know too.

They do not use caskets if the law allows it. Otherwise, they most certainly bury in caskets. If you google, you’ll find Muslim caskets for sale.

Like Jews, they do not embalm, unless the body has to be transported and then they may have to. Like Jews, they bury within 24 hours. Like Jews, they shouldn’t cremate, but probably do now. (Jews cremate more often as of late.)

I only mention the comparison because I was talking about cultural similarities in another thread and this is another one.

93 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:33:44pm

re: #89 Radical Rafe

Yes you may, and yes it did. I wouldn’t have even thought of it had it not run in one of my county’s local papers.

So, what about the permits? I assume there are other Muslim cemeteries in the United States. What do they do?

94 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:35:17pm

please do not feed the trolls after midnight.

95 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:35:56pm

re: #94 wozzablog

please do not feed the trolls after midnight.

I really can’t stand misinformation.

96 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:35:58pm

re: #94 wozzablog

please do not feed the trolls after midnight.

It’s two-thirty in the afternoon.

97 harlequinade  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:36:35pm

Gah - and I have to post and run. Rubbish bed times. Still - I’ll catch up with this in the AM.

Good luck with straightening out that misinformation.

98 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:38:27pm

re: #96 SanFranciscoZionist

It’s two-thirty in the afternoon.

that gives you a few hours ;-)

99 Radical Rafe  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:39:21pm

re: #93 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, I don’t know, SFZ. My original point was, outside of those things (which I think are important to the surrounding residents and should be checked out, etc.), I don’t have any objections to a mosque/complex being built in my neighborhood, just as I have no objections to Park 51.

100 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:39:24pm

re: #92 marjoriemoon

They do not use caskets if the law allows it. Otherwise, they most certainly bury in caskets. If you google, you’ll find Muslim caskets for sale.

Like Jews, they do not embalm, unless the body has to be transported and then they may have to. Like Jews, they bury within 24 hours. Like Jews, they shouldn’t cremate, but probably do now. (Jews cremate more often as of late.)

I only mention the comparison because I was talking about cultural similarities in another thread and this is another one.

You’re exactly right (except I don’t know of any Muslim that has been crematd, but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened). Thank you for explaining things—I’m afraid I’ll burn the rice I have on the stove if I get into another discussion. ;-)

101 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:40:06pm

re: #95 marjoriemoon

I really can’t stand misinformation.

it becomes a never ending cycle - trying to get the last word just ends up with RSI and a slightly dirty unfulfilled feeling about what one is actually *achieving* in life.

I know, i’ve been that way often enough :p

102 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:47:58pm

re: #99 Radical Rafe

Well, I don’t know, SFZ. My original point was, outside of those things (which I think are important to the surrounding residents and should be checked out, etc.), I don’t have any objections to a mosque/complex being built in my neighborhood, just as I have no objections to Park 51.

OK. I really wouldn’t worry about the cemetery, unless there’s some reason to think the mosque officials are likely to screw it up. As Marjorie pointed out, there are modifications to the laws on burial that can be and are made when necessary, as when accomodating Tennessee state law.

103 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:50:24pm

re: #97 harlequinade

Gah - and I have to post and run. Rubbish bed times. Still - I’ll catch up with this in the AM.

Good luck with straightening out that misinformation.

It’s misinformation because the rest of the survey indicates that Muslims very much want to be part of the American dream, in politics, technology, in their own communities.

I would surmise if you polled Christians, they would also say that this country is going to hell in a handbasket.

But, of course, if Muslims want to be part of the community, they’re only doing it to take over. If that’s you’re argument, than you’ve bought into a whole bunch of other misinformation.

How long have Muslims been living in NY btw. 30, 40, 50 years? If they want to take over, they better get crackin!

104 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:50:58pm

re: #100 CuriousLurker

You’re exactly right (except I don’t know of any Muslim that has been crematd, but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened). Thank you for explaining things—I’m afraid I’ll burn the rice I have on the stove if I get into another discussion. ;-)

Ack! Don’t burn the rice!

:)

105 Radical Rafe  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:57:25pm

re: #102 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, thank you ;-)

But it seems I came to the thread too late (and pissed Charles off too early) to gain an understanding of where the line is drawn, where people can express concerns, fears, and opinions about Islam before they get labeled a “bigot”.

Park 51? No objections from me. Mosque/complex in my neighborhood? Fine, as long as they satisfy their neighbors’ concerns about the cemetery, their well water, etc. So, I don’t *think* I’m a bigot…

But I’ve got thoughts, ideas and concerns (which is what led me discover LGF in the first place) about the advance of Islam in the post 9/11 United States. What words could I put them in here before I’m either banned, blocked or called a bigot?

106 webevintage  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 3:02:20pm

re: #105 Radical Rafe

But I’ve got thoughts, ideas and concerns (which is what led me discover LGF in the first place) about the advance of Islam in the post 9/11 United States. What words could I put them in here before I’m either banned, blocked or called a bigot?

I would think ones that do not infer that having Muslims in this country makes the country over run by Muslims and one that does not infer that these folks who are Muslim are not going to enforce Sharia law in America and, yeah also that they are not all terrorists or support terrorism.

107 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 3:03:42pm

re: #105 Radical Rafe

Well, thank you ;-)

But it seems I came to the thread too late (and pissed Charles off too early) to gain an understanding of where the line is drawn, where people can express concerns, fears, and opinions about Islam before they get labeled a “bigot”.

Park 51? No objections from me. Mosque/complex in my neighborhood? Fine, as long as they satisfy their neighbors’ concerns about the cemetery, their well water, etc. So, I don’t *think* I’m a bigot…

But I’ve got thoughts, ideas and concerns (which is what led me discover LGF in the first place) about the advance of Islam in the post 9/11 United States. What words could I put them in here before I’m either banned, blocked or called a bigot?

Your question assumes that there’s some special set of beliefs to which all lizards adhere, and that if you step over the line, we will all call you a bigot. It’s a bit more complicated than that, and most of us have learned to be wary of people who start conversations with, “What am I allowed to say without being called a bigot?” It does inherently assume that you’re going to be called one unfairly if you say what’s on your mind.

108 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 3:06:25pm

re: #103 marjoriemoon

How long have Muslims been living in NY btw. 30, 40, 50 years? If they want to take over, they better get crackin!

Hehehe. I once had on older Muslim man point out an old building in Harlem that housed the very first NYC mosque. IIRC, he said it was converted into a mosque in 1910’s or 1920’s.

109 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 3:09:24pm

re: #60 kamala

I’m willing to best there are plenty of evangelical Christians who also believe that America is corrupt and immoral. And truthfully, that group has incredible potential in the U.S. to influence public policy and pass laws that could curb freedoms. Heck, I’m an atheist and even I think the U.S. is corrupt and immoral, especially how our elected officials continue to ignore the hazards of jobs going overseas, millions without affordable health insurance, poverty among children, etc.Our two party system, though immensely better and preferable to that of a caliphate or dictatorship, also has us gridlocked - vote for tweedle dee or tweedle dum.

Ok I’m done. Dark chocolate anyone?

110 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 3:11:18pm

there has been re: #109 eclectic infidel

I’m willing to best there are plenty of evangelical Christians who also believe that America is corrupt and immoral. And truthfully, that group has incredible potential in the U.S. to influence public policy and pass laws that could curb freedoms. Heck, I’m an atheist and even I think the U.S. is corrupt and immoral, especially how our elected officials continue to ignore the hazards of jobs going overseas, millions without affordable health insurance, poverty among children, etc.Our two party system, though immensely better and preferable to that of a caliphate or dictatorship, also has us gridlocked - vote for tweedle dee or tweedle dum.

Ok I’m done. Dark chocolate anyone?

Don’t blame me - i voted for Kodos.

111 Radical Rafe  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 3:13:28pm

re: #107 SanFranciscoZionist

well, I was mainly asking about Charles himself, since this is his sandbox.

I don’t visit the site often. But I don’t see a lot of room here for people to say “Yeah, you know, the Park 51 thing is fine and all, but it couldn’t hurt to be just a LITTLE careful about the growing number of mosques and Muslims in the US and the potential of terroristic influence and planning emanating therefrom.”

112 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 3:16:51pm

re: #111 Radical Rafe

well, I was mainly asking about Charles himself, since this is his sandbox.

I don’t visit the site often. But I don’t see a lot of room here for people to say “Yeah, you know, the Park 51 thing is fine and all, but it couldn’t hurt to be just a LITTLE careful about the growing number of mosques and Muslims in the US and the potential of terroristic influence and planning emanating therefrom.”

I’m more worried about the growing number of right-wing Christofascists.

113 Radical Rafe  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 3:22:25pm

re: #112 Cato the Elder

Which is fine, Cato. I’m right there with you. I may disagree on the comparable criticality of the threat —- I think if there are going to be many more spectacular and deadly attacks, explosions, or beheadings it will more likely be a Muslim than an evangelical, but I could very well be wrong.

But, I’m not asking you when you stopped beating your wife.

114 Filala  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 3:45:54pm

re: #2 Obdicut
How do you know that most mosques are moderate? The one’s funded by Saudi Arabia certainly don’t promote tolerence.

[Link: www.freedomhouse.org…]

In opening our country up to an influx of Muslims, given the steady stream of anti-Western propaganda coming from Muslim States and the fact that most violence in the world today involves Muslim fanatics, or whatever you want to call them, I believe the prudent policy is to know who exactly you allowing into the country. I don’t have much confidence in the way things are handled now. I think that caution is our best option at this time, and for the forseeable future.

115 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 3:49:59pm

re: #114 Filala

How do you know that most mosques are moderate? The one’s funded by Saudi Arabia certainly don’t promote tolerence.

[Link: www.freedomhouse.org…]

In opening our country up to an influx of Muslims, given the steady stream of anti-Western propaganda coming from Muslim States and the fact that most violence in the world today involves Muslim fanatics, or whatever you want to call them, I believe the prudent policy is to know who exactly you allowing into the country. I don’t have much confidence in the way things are handled now. I think that caution is our best option at this time, and for the forseeable future.

Yawn.

116 ihateronpaul  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 3:50:32pm

In my (left-leaning and thus biased, but EVERYONE is biased) opinion, the right wing has an “evil cancer”

I feel like when I hear right wing ideologues speaking out against “the gays,” “the moozlims,” “the poor,” “rape-caused abortion,”

it is coming from the same fucked up, evil part of their brains. That a few scapegoated entities magically create all problems. Why do they do this? I’m guessing it’s to distract them from the ugliness inside of themselves….

117 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 3:58:53pm

re: #116 ihateronpaul

In my (left-leaning and thus biased, but EVERYONE is biased) opinion, the right wing has an “evil cancer”

I feel like when I hear right wing ideologues speaking out against “the gays,” “the moozlims,” “the poor,” “rape-caused abortion,”

it is coming from the same fucked up, evil part of their brains. That a few scapegoated entities magically create all problems. Why do they do this? I’m guessing it’s to distract them from the ugliness inside of themselves…

The “American Taliban” name stuck as a monicker for a reason.

118 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 4:00:57pm

re: #114 Filala

How do you know that most mosques are moderate? The one’s funded by Saudi Arabia certainly don’t promote tolerence.

Please provide a list naming the specific mosques you’re referring to.

…most violence in the world today involves Muslim fanatics…

Really? Muslims are responsible for most wars, murders, rapes, etc. all around the world? Would you care to provide proof for that also?

…I believe the prudent policy is to know who exactly you allowing into the country…

What do you propose be done about American-born Muslims?

119 webevintage  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 4:04:49pm

re: #114 Filala

How do you know that most mosques are moderate? The one’s funded by Saudi Arabia certainly don’t promote tolerence.

[Link: www.freedomhouse.org…]

In opening our country up to an influx of Muslims, given the steady stream of anti-Western propaganda coming from Muslim States and the fact that most violence in the world today involves Muslim fanatics, or whatever you want to call them, I believe the prudent policy is to know who exactly you allowing into the country. I don’t have much confidence in the way things are handled now. I think that caution is our best option at this time, and for the forseeable future.

Jesus.
[Link: www.sanford.duke.edu…]
“A two-year study by a group of academics on American Muslims and terrorism concluded that contemporary mosques are actually a deterrent to the spread of militant Islam and terrorism. The study was conducted by professors with Duke’s Sanford School of Public Policy and the University of North Carolina. It disclosed that many mosque leaders had put significant effort into countering extremism by building youth programs, sponsoring antiviolence forums and scrutinizing teachers and texts. ”
From the NYT today.

120 Radical Rafe  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 4:18:32pm

re: #80 Cato the Elder

Now Cato,

I inferred the sarcasm from your post. And I responded with something reasonable and germane, which seemed to zip you up because you didn’t come back with anything pithy or biting.

Didn’t have anything to say to a thoughtful and well-reasoned concern, did you?

121 tradewind  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 6:18:00pm

re: #106 webevintage

I would think ones that do not infer imply that having Muslims in this country makes the country over run by Muslims and one that does not infer imply….


FTFY, I think.

122 zfog888  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 7:59:02pm

It is obvious that you do not understand the the definition of the word “racist”. Please look it up in the dictionary. M-W would be a good site to consult and/or an English dictionary.

Improper use of words just makes you look ignorant.

Muslims are NOT a race but Chinese people are a race.

123 solomonpanting  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 7:59:08pm

re: #118 CuriousLurker

re: #114 Filala

How do you know that most mosques are moderate? The one’s funded by Saudi Arabia certainly don’t promote tolerence.

Please provide a list naming the specific mosques you’re referring to

No specifics, but 80% is a rather large amount.

124 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 8:02:13pm

re: #120 Radical Rafe

Now Cato,

I inferred the sarcasm from your post. And I responded with something reasonable and germane, which seemed to zip you up because you didn’t come back with anything pithy or biting.

Didn’t have anything to say to a thoughtful and well-reasoned concern, did you?

No, I’m just done talking to dicks for the day.

125 zfog888  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 8:05:06pm

re: #112 Cato the Elder

So how many deaths/injuries in the last few years can we attribute to Islamist and how many can we attribute to right-wing Christofascists?

You are being intellectually dishonest.

126 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 8:05:49pm

re: #125 zfog888

So how many deaths/injuries in the last few years can we attribute to Islamist and how many can we attribute to right-wing Christofascists?

You are being intellectually dishonest.

And you are being a dead-thread troll.

Have fun with that.

127 zfog888  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 8:17:10pm

re: #83 Fozzie Bear
Bigotry is a 2+ street road. Using the words bigotry is poor way to side track a discussion/debate. Invalidate the arguments via logic.

128 zfog888  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 8:36:34pm

re: #2 Obdicut

So you are saying that Iman Feisa is a “moderate”?

Please provide a definition of a “moderate” muslim.

129 zfog888  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 8:42:38pm

re: #126 Cato the Elder

Being dismissive does not provide support for your argument.

It’s “ok” if you don’t want to answer that question.

Just say “I do not feel discussing/debating my statement.”

130 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 8:45:02pm

re: #129 zfog888

You are not welcome at my website. Just go away.

131 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 12:55:24am

re: #29 Obdicut

It’s not close at all, though. About a third of those fighting for the US in the ETO in WWII had German-American ancestry. I don’t know of any German-American group— beyond the Bund— that was prevented from building or doing something post-WWII.

Can you give an example?

My mother’s brother (long deceased) got his American citizenship by enlisting in 1943 (my grandparents and my mother became citizens in 1939, five years after they arrived here from Germany). In its infinite wisdom, the Army sent this native German, who still spoke excellent German, to the Pacific.

re: #37 SpaceJesus

oh no, the marxist mexican muslims are coming, whatever will i do

You’ll think it’s a blessing when the next wave, the gay Marxist Mexican Muslims, arrive here.

re: #47 palomino

Surely a possibility. Wouldn’t be the first time a minority group was demonized to rally the majority to vote.

Some would argue the same about the AZ bill, as well as gop’s southern strategy.

Why do you think my mother’s family bailed out of a relatively comfortable life in The Fatherland?

re: #92 marjoriemoon


Like Jews, they do not embalm, unless the body has to be transported and then they may have to. Like Jews, they bury within 24 hours. Like Jews, they shouldn’t cremate, but probably do now. (Jews cremate more often as of late.)

I can’t speak for Islamic practice, but halacha (religious law) for Jews says 72 hours. Cremation is technically against halacha, but many of us have said or say “to heck with that”, including my late father.

re: #119 webevintage

Jesus.
[Link: www.sanford.duke.edu…]
“A two-year study by a group of academics on American Muslims and terrorism concluded that contemporary mosques are actually a deterrent to the spread of militant Islam and terrorism. The study was conducted by professors with Duke’s Sanford School of Public Policy and the University of North Carolina. It disclosed that many mosque leaders had put significant effort into countering extremism by building youth programs, sponsoring antiviolence forums and scrutinizing teachers and texts. ”
From the NYT today.

I have found that most well-publicized studies come to the conclusions desired by either those funding them or those conducting them. It doesn’t mean they’re wrong, but tell me who’s paying and who’s studying, and I can usually tell you the conclusion.

132 CuriousLurker  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 3:45:03am

re: #123 solomonpanting

No specifics, but 80% is a rather large amount.

Ah, yes, by all means let’s point to a five year old LGF article which points to an article from the Jerusalem Post that no longer exists, at least not that I could find.

Ms. Barsky, who is quoted in the article, doesn’t appear to have personally done any formal studies, at least not based on anything I could find on the AJC’s Counterterrorism Watch page or it’s Terrorism Publications page.

Since the above left me with claims that I couldn’t find documentation for, I decided to do some digging. Interestingly, I was able to locate testimony given seven years ago by a Mr. Stephen Schwartz to the U.S. Senate Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Homeland Security, copies of which can be found here and here (PDF). Lo and behold, there were the claims of 80% about American mosques being “under Wahhabi control”. Mr. Schwartz apparently based that figure on estimates by “Shia and other non-Wahhabi Muslim community leaders”. Hmm, that’s pretty vague. Why not provide documented facts? Time to check out Mr. Schwartz I guess…

First stop, check out the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, which is the organization Mr. Schwartz was representing when he gave his testimony to the Senate Subcommittee in 2003. Oh look, guess who’s on their Leadership Council? None other than the Illustrious Newt Gingrich! Small, small world, isn’t it? Guess who else is on the council? Gary Bauer, evangelical Christian and President of American Values. A sampling of their pro-life, anti-evolution, anti-gay marriage articles can be found here (Google cache via bit.ly). BTW, Mr. Bauer also failed to disagree with G. Gordon Liddy’s assertion that “Barack Obama is a Muslim” (hat tip to iceweasel for her page with the link to that story).

Second stop, Wikipedia. It says Mr. Schwartz is a Muslim convert who came to Islam by way of having read Sufi teachings (just as I did), yet he now self-identifies as a neoconservative and writes for The Weekly Standard. Odd for someone who calls himself a “disciple of Ibn Arabi”. He is also the executive director of an outfit called the Center for Islamic Pluralism. Even more odd—especially for someone who claims to be a Muslim dedicated to pluralism—several of his articles come across as alarmist at best, Islamophobic at worst. He’s also against Park51 and seems to harbor a special contempt for Imam Rauf, who he does his best to paint as an insincere, devious radical in several of his articles (Google cache via bit.ly—you’ll need to go to the live site to see the most recent articles).

Based on the above, Mr. Schwartz is now on my “people to disregard” list. Let me know when/if you come up with recent, verifiable data from a non-partisan source to substantiate your claim.

133 CuriousLurker  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 4:03:03am

re: #131 ClaudeMonet

I have found that most well-publicized studies come to the conclusions desired by either those funding them or those conducting them. It doesn’t mean they’re wrong, but tell me who’s paying and who’s studying, and I can usually tell you the conclusion.

“Muslim-Americans organizations and the vast majority of individuals that we interviewed firmly reject the radical extremist ideology that justifies the use of violence to achieve political ends,” said co-author David H. Schanzer, director of the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security.

The report, “Anti-Terror Lessons of Muslim American Communities,” was co-authored by Schanzer, associate professor at Duke’s Sanford School of Public Policy; Charles Kurzman, professor of sociology at UNC’s College of Arts and Sciences; and Ebrahim Moosa, associate professor of religion at Duke. It summarizes two years of research in Muslim-American communities in Seattle, Houston, Buffalo and Raleigh-Durham, funded by a grant from the U.S. Department of Justice.

[Link: sanford.duke.edu…]

134 jea62  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 6:56:57am

Ten doctors were executed in northern Afghanistan by the Taliban for “proselytizing.” Time magazine has on this week’s cover a picture of a Pakistani (I believe, perhaps she’s Afghani) young woman whose nose and ears were cut off for running away from abusive relatives (I believe it was her in-laws). Gee, why do you suppose people think Islam is a violent religion?

135 CuriousLurker  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 7:36:34am

Annnnnnd the dead thread trolls are back.

136 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 4:41:08pm
137 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 12:19:28am

re: #134 jea62

Ten doctors were executed in northern Afghanistan by the Taliban for “proselytizing.” Time magazine has on this week’s cover a picture of a Pakistani (I believe, perhaps she’s Afghani) young woman whose nose and ears were cut off for running away from abusive relatives (I believe it was her in-laws). Gee, why do you suppose people think Islam is a violent religion?

How many young women have been burned to death by their Hindu in-laws this year, and how many times did you see it in the paper, or give a shit?


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