Majority of Manhattanites Support Cordoba House Mosque

The Marist College Institute for Public Opinion has released a new poll of New York residents, showing that Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s approval rating has dropped to 49%.

The New York Post, busily inciting hatred against the Cordoba House project, links this drop to Bloomberg’s stance against bigotry and for religious freedom and the separation of church and state.

Mayor Bloomberg’s popularity rating has dropped to its lowest level in five years, in part because of his ardent defense of a proposed mosque several blocks from Ground Zero, according to a poll released yesterday.

New Yorkers’ approval of their third-term mayor (pictured) dipped to 49 percent, down from 56 percent in April, as 53 percent of those surveyed said they disagree with his position on the mosque, according to the Marist survey.

“The mosque is not doing him any good … He’s certainly on the wrong side of public opinion on that in the city,” said pollster Lee Miringoff, director of Marist College’s Institute for Public Opinion.

Support for violating the US Constitution and depriving American citizens of their rights is especially strong among New York Republicans.

Of the Republicans polled, 74 percent were against building the mosque and an accompanying cultural center near Ground Zero, while half of the Democrats surveyed expressed opposition.

It’s a textbook example of the power of populist demagoguery.

But there’s something the New York Post isn’t telling you. When you take a look at the actual poll’s cross-tabs, you discover something interesting: a clear majority of Manhattan residents — the people who live and work near Ground Zero, and who experienced the 9/11 attacks first hand — support the Cordoba House.

Jump to bottom

204 comments
1 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:04:59am

I wish New Yorkers would stop telling the rest of America how to run their city.

/

2 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:05:29am

Yes, but what percentage of REAL Americans support it?

/

3 thedopefishlives  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:06:43am

But it’s the WILL OF THE PEOPLE, man. You can’t fight it, ‘cuz this country’s, like, a DEMOCRACY or some such, and that means we get to tell you what to do!

/Ugh, my brain hurts after that one

4 Four More Tears  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:06:53am
Support for violating the US Constitution and depriving American citizens of their rights is especially strong among New York Republicans.

Someone needs to explain the concept of “precedence” to them, and how, if this were stopped by government action (even if it really could), it would be be a negative all around.

5 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:08:21am

Charles, the link to the crosstabs is wrong. It should be this.

As I commented in the last thread, the rest of the poll’s breakdowns shows no support and only a plurality of self-described liberals support this project (49%).

Even on the borough support, I’m not sure whether the poll itself can truly gauge support since only 696 people citywide were polled, and there is no geographical breakdown of where those people were so there’s no way to know if a statistically significant number of Manhattanites were polled. In fact, they lumped together Staten Island and Queens, despite the fact that each are distinct boroughs (and separated by Brooklyn no less).

Yet, your general point stands - Manhattanites seem to support the construction, but on each and every other metric in the poll, there is no support.

6 sagehen  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:08:33am

I’ll never understand why people who watched 9/11 on TV, from places that will never be at any kind of risk of terrorism, were so much more traumatized than people who walked down 70 flights of stairs, dodged falling debris and smelled the burning flesh.

It just boggles the mind.

7 Stanley Sea  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:08:41am

Bizarre how the GOP/voting Republicans, usually thought of as tough on foreign policy, tough on crime etc., are now basically crumbling in fear.

8 albusteve  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:10:07am

I don’t expect the mosque to be popular, but after all we’ve been through, you’d think people would understand…the positive numbers are weak imo…disappointing to me, but emotion is rampant these days and it’s to be expected

9 wrenchwench  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:11:14am

re: #6 sagehen

I’ll never understand why people who watched 9/11 on TV, from places that will never be at any kind of risk of terrorism, were so much more traumatized than people who walked down 70 flights of stairs, dodged falling debris and smelled the burning flesh.

It just boggles the mind.

Those on the scene were dealing with reality. Those at a distance engaged their imaginations to try to feel what it must have been like—there’s no limit to imaginings. Reality has limits.

10 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:11:24am

re: #5 lawhawk

Oops on the links myself.

The crosstabs for the construction question is here.

This is the crosstabs on the Views Toward Construction of Mosque Near World Trade Center Site (whether it is conciliatory or offensive to 9/11 victims).

11 Four More Tears  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:11:34am

re: #5 lawhawk

Is it a given that someone who thinks this project “Offends the memory of the 9-11 victims and their families” wants it to be stopped?

12 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:12:51am

re: #5 lawhawk

Charles, the link to the crosstabs is wrong. It should be this.

I was linking to the full PDF, but the link got messed up. Thanks — that direct link to a web page is better, anyway.

13 Cineaste  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:13:26am

I’m a Manhattanite and I support their right to build it.

I love that the wing nuts are claiming to speak for those of us who were victims (and I was not really a victim, I’m alive). They don’t. They speak for their own cowardice.

14 Four More Tears  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:13:44am

re: #10 lawhawk

Ah. Better. I’m starting to hate these polls. Opposition could mean anything from “I don’t want it here, but they have the right” to “shut it down by any means necessary.” And “favor?” Hell, as an atheist I’d rather Burlington Coat Factory be put back in there…

15 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:14:03am

The Post…. pushing a message of mistrust and hate??!?!?!

Say it ain’t so!!!

16 Interesting Times  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:14:18am

re: #7 Stanley Sea

Bizarre how the GOP/voting Republicans, usually thought of as tough on foreign policy, tough on crime etc., are now basically crumbling in fear.

Bizarre? Why, it’s a scientific fact ;)

Conservatives Scare More Easily Than Liberals, Say Scientists

In reflex tests of 46 political partisans, psychologists found that conservatives were more likely than liberals to be shocked by sudden threats.

17 albusteve  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:15:28am

re: #11 JasonA

Is it a given that someone who thinks this project “Offends the memory of the 9-11 victims and their families” wants it to be stopped?

if so, any mosque would offend their memory it seems to me….therefore, no mosques anywhere…the whole thing is crazy with emotion, it’s useless

18 Amory Blaine  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:15:53am

Thanks for pointing it out.

19 Four More Tears  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:15:58am

re: #17 albusteve

if so, any mosque would offend their memory it seems to me…therefore, no mosques anywhere…the whole thing is crazy with emotion, it’s useless

We… agree.

20 thedopefishlives  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:16:01am

re: #17 albusteve

if so, any mosque would offend their memory it seems to me…therefore, no mosques anywhere…the whole thing is crazy with emotion, it’s useless

Wasn’t there a post somewhere here on LGF where someone actually said this?

21 Stanley Sea  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:16:34am

re: #16 publicityStunted

Excellent article.

22 Amory Blaine  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:17:13am

re: #13 Cineaste

I’m a Manhattanite and I support their right to build it.

I love that the wing nuts are claiming to speak for those of us who were victims (and I was not really a victim, I’m alive). They don’t. They speak for their own cowardice.

Wingnuts are the perpetual victims…

23 Four More Tears  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:17:53am

re: #22 Amory Blaine

Wingnuts are the perpetual victims…

Manhattanites are victims.

Of terror attacks…

24 albusteve  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:18:58am

re: #19 JasonA

We… agree.

kinda hard not to…when this story broke I thought people would be fairly ambivalent, I’m sorta surprised at all the phony rage….just erodes my confidence a bit more again

25 albusteve  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:19:40am

re: #20 thedopefishlives

Wasn’t there a post somewhere here on LGF where someone actually said this?

don’t know

26 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:20:14am

re: #14 JasonA

Ah. Better. I’m starting to hate these polls. Opposition could mean anything from “I don’t want it here, but they have the right” to “shut it down by any means necessary.” And “favor?” Hell, as an atheist I’d rather Burlington Coat Factory be put back in there…

But leading and oddly phrased questions are how polls are supposed to work nowadays.

Right?

27 deranged cat  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:20:19am

re: #16 publicityStunted

wow. thats some study! hahaha..

28 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:20:35am

Fox News CNN is posting a new poll today…

Overwhelming majority oppose mosque near Ground Zero

A proposed mosque to be built two blocks from the World Trade Center has little support nationwide, a new CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll suggests.

According to the new survey out Wednesday, nearly 70 percent of all Americans oppose the controversial plan to build the mosque just blocks away from the solemn site in lower Manhattan while just 29 percent favor the construction.

Broken down by party affiliation, 54 percent of Democrats oppose the plans while 82 percent of Republicans disapprove. Meanwhile, 70 percent of independents said they are against the proposal.

The poll also showed opposition did not vary widely by age.

“Support for the controversial project is slightly higher among younger Americans than older Americans, but even among those under the age of 50, six in ten oppose the plan,” said CNN Polling Director Keating Holland.

29 albusteve  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:21:16am

re: #26 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

But leading and oddly phrased questions are how polls are supposed to work nowadays.

Right?

of course…one needs to be able to interpret them ‘properly’

30 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:21:19am

re: #22 Amory Blaine

Wingnuts are the perpetual victims…

white Christians are the biggest victims in (real) America !!!!111!!!1111!!ty

31 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:21:23am

re: #23 JasonA

Manhattanites Americans are victims.

Of terror attacks…

FIFY

32 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:22:27am

re: #28 NJDhockeyfan

Fox News CNN is posting a new poll today…

Overwhelming majority oppose mosque near Ground Zero

the network thatpandered to Lou Dobbs? - surely not!

33 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:22:29am

Grrr, any site that includes a hidden metrics or adclick site making it impossible to just click back to where you came from needs to die in a fire.

34 albusteve  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:22:53am

re: #28 NJDhockeyfan

Fox News CNN is posting a new poll today…

Overwhelming majority oppose mosque near Ground Zero

I give up…fucking polls don’t even matter…I don’t give a shit if 99% oppose it

35 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:23:07am

re: #28 NJDhockeyfan

Fox News CNN is posting a new poll today…

Overwhelming majority oppose mosque near Ground Zero

Seriously… you trust a CNN poll?

36 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:23:22am

re: #31 NJDhockeyfan

FIFY

so are people in London, Madrid, Bali, Moscow………..

37 Stanley Sea  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:24:56am

Need to compare these numbers to the % of Americans who were scared to death of the reds.

Fear!!

38 webevintage  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:25:07am

re: #22 Amory Blaine

Wingnuts are the perpetual victims…

No wonder they love President Palin…she is a professional victim.

39 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:25:38am

re: #28 NJDhockeyfan

Check out the crosstabs on that poll too (page 8).

Also, the question itself is flawed because it isn’t just a mosque. It’s a community center first and foremost, and will be a mosque/prayer space as well.

I daresay that the results would have been different if the question was phrased “As you may know, a group of Muslims in the U.S. plan to build a mosque community center two blocks from the site in
New York City where the World Trade Center used to stand. Do you favor or oppose this plan?

40 albusteve  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:25:46am

re: #35 Walter L. Newton

Seriously… you trust a CNN poll?

as for me, there is a pattern here….the MSM want’s this story to grow, become even more decisive….maybe, if they get lucky, they will see some violence

41 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:26:07am

So, 3 weeks after I try to make my online account and 2 weeks after I finally go in, wait in line and renew my license, I finally get the email from the CA DMV telling me my online account is ready.

/facepalm

42 RadicalModerate  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:26:43am

Pamela Geller has turned up the rhetoric to yet another level today.

On the “Fox and Friends” program, she equated the building of the Cordoba Project to “the KKK building a shrine next to a black Alabama church”.

The link goes to Media Matters, but all it contains the video to this morning’s interview segment on FoxNews.

43 Four More Tears  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:26:45am

re: #40 albusteve

as for me, there is a pattern here…the MSM want’s this story to grow, become even more decisive…maybe, if they get lucky, they will see some violence

Divisive?

44 HappyWarrior  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:27:12am

Just because a majority oppose doesn’t make them right. Once upon a time there was a majority of people who opposed civil rights for minorities. That didn’t make it right to oppose civil rights.

45 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:27:16am

I just got home from a 2:00 am - 10:30 am shift, working for a vacationing employee in general merchandise… got to do it again tonight… phew… a lot of poop to stock… I didn’t know they made so many different condoms… and what’s with the pineapple flavored?

46 albusteve  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:27:28am

re: #43 JasonA

Divisive?

ah yes..I goofed

47 webevintage  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:27:49am

re: #40 albusteve

as for me, there is a pattern here…the MSM want’s this story to grow, become even more decisive…maybe, if they get lucky, they will see some violence

Indeed.


I have a problem with polls that poll people based on a subject that has been missed reported. if people don’t even know the truth then their opinion should account for nothing.

48 Four More Tears  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:28:39am

Message to anyone who thinks this project needs to be stopped by the government: I will laugh at you the next time you dare speak on the intents of the Founding Fathers. You really don’t get it.

49 rwdflynavy  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:28:45am

re: #13 Cineaste

I’m a Manhattanite and I support their right to build it.

I love that the wing nuts are claiming to speak for those of us who were victims (and I was not really a victim, I’m alive). They don’t. They speak for their own cowardice.

cowardice, prejudice, tomato, tomato.

50 albusteve  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:28:55am

re: #47 webevintage

Indeed.

I have a problem with polls that poll people based on a subject that has been missed reported. if people don’t even know the truth then their opinion should account for nothing.

the MSM knows that…it’s abusive and dishonest

51 wrenchwench  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:28:59am

re: #45 Walter L. Newton

I didn’t know they made so many different condoms… and what’s with the pineapple flavored?

For pizza?

52 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:30:14am

re: #51 wrenchwench

For pizza?

You put condoms on your pizza?

53 Four More Tears  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:30:18am

re: #51 wrenchwench

For pizza?

*makes a mental note to avoid the pizza in Wrenchwench’s neck of the woods…*

54 Spider Mensch  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:30:19am

as a NYC area resident, fo a good part of my life…let me tell everyone a little something..all the sane people know the NY Post is just ahead of the supermarket check out aisle tabloids..barely. any sane New Yorker will give a knowing glance and a roll of the eyes if you quote the NY Post…and no, I am not a subscriber of the NY Times either.
I would expect nothing less from the post but to be against the mosque.

55 Amory Blaine  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:30:53am

re: #40 albusteve

as for me, there is a pattern here…the MSM want’s this story to grow, become even more decisive…maybe, if they get lucky, they will see some violence

The MSM exists to generate income for their stockholders.

56 Gus  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:30:58am

Interesting how the right wing is now relying on public opinion polls are now being used to oppose Park51. I seem to remember the polling numbers for the Iraq war to reflect a majority of Americans steadily opposing the invasion after 2006. The response from the right was to discredit all of these polls and polling in general.

57 Four More Tears  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:31:41am

re: #56 Gus 802

Interesting how the right wing is now relying on public opinion polls are now being used to oppose Park51. I seem to remember the polling numbers for the Iraq war to reflect a majority of Americans steadily opposing the invasion after 2006. The response from the right was to discredit all of these polls and polling in general.

I’ll take a page from Cheney’s book in regards to these polls.

“So what?”

58 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:32:22am

re: #56 Gus 802

Interesting how the right wing is now relying on public opinion polls are now being used to oppose Park51. I seem to remember the polling numbers for the Iraq war to reflect a majority of Americans steadily opposing the invasion after 2006. The response from the right was to discredit all of these polls and polling in general.


Please, don’t point that out - it makes heads explode when you throw their own arguments back at them.

Diddums’ often can’t cope.

59 albusteve  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:32:48am

re: #55 Amory Blaine

The MSM exists to generate income for their stockholders.

that’s why I hate them so much…95% might as well be all of them for all I care

60 Cineaste  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:33:14am

re: #23 JasonA

Manhattanites are victims.

Of terror attacks…

Let’s follow wing nut logic:

Terrorists attack us because they hate our freedom. Terrorists attack us because they hate real American values. Coastal liberal elites don’t understand real American values and freedom because we believe in things like abortion rights and marriage equality. But terrorists attack us in those places that are most liberal. Therefore aren’t those places the most free?

It’s possible that we could see a weird, Phelpsian/Rand&Ron Paul/Tea Party confluence occur where the wing nut brigade begins saying that it’s liberal values that are making us get attacked…

This leads nowhere good.

61 HappyWarrior  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:33:21am

re: #56 Gus 802

Interesting how the right wing is now relying on public opinion polls are now being used to oppose Park51. I seem to remember the polling numbers for the Iraq war to reflect a majority of Americans steadily opposing the invasion after 2006. The response from the right was to discredit all of these polls and polling in general.

It’s typical. Partisans love and embrace polls when they agree with them but they’re total bullshit when they don’t.

62 RadicalModerate  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:33:24am

re: #40 albusteve

as for me, there is a pattern here…the MSM want’s this story to grow, become even more decisive…maybe, if they get lucky, they will see some violence

Funny, what I see from the mainstream media is reporting of the conflict itself. Some are going on record as supporting its constitutional right to exist.

On the other hand, what I see from FoxNews, Limbaugh, Geller, and the barking dogs of the SoCon right is continuous race-baiting, multiple inflammatory and inaccurate statements, and general fanning the flames of anti-Muslim hatred.

63 RogueOne  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:33:40am

I wonder why the numbers in Manhattan are 20% higher than the rest of the city. Anything in the numbers to suggest why?

64 cliffster  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:34:01am

How about this for a poll: “Do you favor or oppose people across the country sticking their nose in your local municipal business?

or a different wording..

Do you, or do you not, give a shit what a bunch of fat, stupid senators and hot-air-filled commentators think about what we build here in our town?

65 albusteve  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:34:31am

re: #56 Gus 802

Interesting how the right wing is now relying on public opinion polls are now being used to oppose Park51. I seem to remember the polling numbers for the Iraq war to reflect a majority of Americans steadily opposing the invasion after 2006. The response from the right was to discredit all of these polls and polling in general.

I can see why…we were getting pounded pretty good at that point

66 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:34:47am

re: #63 RogueOne

Higher percentage of self-described liberals and a lower percentage of conservatives would be my guess. Without a geographical breakdown of where persons polled lived, there’s no way to know.

67 Cineaste  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:34:50am

re: #40 albusteve

as for me, there is a pattern here…the MSM want’s this story to grow, become even more decisive…maybe, if they get lucky, they will see some violence

yep, it’s definitely the liberal elitist MSM that created the rallies against Mosques.

/

68 Gus  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:35:18am

re: #65 albusteve

I can see why…we were getting pounded pretty good at that point

Yeah. I went up towards the end. That is after the surge.

69 albusteve  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:36:24am

re: #68 Gus 802

Yeah. I went up towards the end. That is after the surge.

everybody loves a winna!

70 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:36:32am

This is the link to the Marist poll:
[Link: maristpoll.marist.edu…]

The poll subset says that 53% of Manhattanites support the mosque, but this subset carries a margin of error much greater than the poll-wide margin of 3.5%, therefore it is not correct to say that a clear majority of Manhattanites support the mosque.

71 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:36:45am

While we’re taking polls to decide who can and can’t exercise freedoms and rights, how’s about we take one on how many Americans think the KKK should be allowed to demonstrate? Or pro-lifers? Or Illinois Nazis?

These folks need to understand that hating on Muslims may be in vogue now, but who will be next in the crosshairs? Apparently not enough people are alive to remember the Red Scare and the sort of paranoid, hateful shit that went on in the “quest” to do away with all things “Un-American.”

72 albusteve  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:37:17am

re: #67 Cineaste

yep, it’s definitely the liberal elitist MSM that created the rallies against Mosques.

/

no comprende

73 Amory Blaine  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:37:29am

re: #70 Spare O’Lake

This is the link to the Marist poll:
[Link: maristpoll.marist.edu…]

The poll subset says that 53% of Manhattanites support the mosque, but this subset carries a margin of error much greater than the poll-wide margin of 3.5%, therefore it is not correct to say that a clear majority of Manhattanites support the mosque.

Wow so the poll taker is discrediting their own poll?

74 darthstar  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:38:35am
75 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:38:47am

re: #70 Spare O’Lake

This is the link to the Marist poll:
[Link: maristpoll.marist.edu…]

The poll subset says that 53% of Manhattanites support the mosque, but this subset carries a margin of error much greater than the poll-wide margin of 3.5%, therefore it is not correct to say that a clear majority of Manhattanites support the mosque.

What would it really matter. What if 95 percent of New Yorkers, or Manhattanites were against ht building of the community center… they still would be wrong…

Right?

76 brownbagj  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:38:56am

re: #71 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

No, no, no. You don’t understand. Only the right things get to be voted on and only true Americans get to vote.

So, there is nothing to worry about.

/

77 Gus  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:40:01am

This has become such a distraction. It’s become part of the GOP platform in many cases. We’re up to our elbows in economic turmoil and so much time is being wasted in opposing Park51. I’m pretty sure we’re also 2 years out from this center being completed.

78 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:41:06am

re: #70 Spare O’Lake

This is the link to the Marist poll:
[Link: maristpoll.marist.edu…]

The poll subset says that 53% of Manhattanites support the mosque, but this subset carries a margin of error much greater than the poll-wide margin of 3.5%, therefore it is not correct to say that a clear majority of Manhattanites support the mosque.

What are you talking about? Every table in the poll lists a MOE of +/- 4%.

79 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:41:13am

re: #73 Amory Blaine

Wow so the poll taker is discrediting their own poll?

Basic statistics.

80 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:42:02am

re: #76 brownbagj

No, no, no. You don’t understand. Only the right things get to be voted on and only true Americans get to vote.

So, there is nothing to worry about.

/

Yep. And since a Muslim can’t be considered a “true American,” well his opinion don’t matter.

/

81 Amory Blaine  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:42:05am

re: #77 Gus 802

This has become such a distraction. It’s become part of the GOP platform in many cases. We’re up to our elbows in economic turmoil and so much time is being wasted in opposing Park51. I’m pretty sure we’re also 2 years out from this center being completed.

Maybe it’s part of a larger plot to paint Democrats as IslamoFascist sympathizers to be used as a broad bludgeon across the country.

82 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:42:34am

And the section about New York City is simply explaining how they derived the number at which it was statistically significant.

83 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:42:45am

re: #77 Gus 802

This has become such a distraction. It’s become part of the GOP platform in many cases. We’re up to our elbows in economic turmoil and so much time is being wasted in opposing Park51. I’m pretty sure we’re also 2 years out from this center being completed.

And that’s a problem? I bet Nancy and Harry are tickled pink that this mosque thing is keeping peoples minds off the economic turmoil.

84 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:43:20am

For some reason, everyone in my office is playing this song;

THE SAILORS SAY BRANDY, YOU’RE A FINE GIRL…

85 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:44:46am

re: #78 Charles

What are you talking about? Every table in the poll lists a MOE of +/- 4%.

I referred to page 4 of the poll results at [Link: maristpoll.marist.edu…] I think if you re-read it you will agree with me, but in any case that is my source.

86 brownbagj  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:45:50am

re: #80 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

See how easy that was?

87 Stonemason  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:46:24am

re: #83 Walter L. Newton

And that’s a problem? I bet Nancy and Harry are tickled pink that this mosque thing is keeping peoples minds off the economic turmoil.

There is no money yet for the Center, $18,000 in the bank, $100,000,000 or more still needed, according to much of what I have read. Two years is a very conservative estimate and you are probably correct about this being a welcome distraction.

And no, I didn’t say they created it, I said they were not bothered by it.

88 Gus  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:47:16am

re: #83 Walter L. Newton

And that’s a problem? I bet Nancy and Harry are tickled pink that this mosque thing is keeping peoples minds off the economic turmoil.

I see it as a problem. As far as Nancy and Harry I’d include other politicians in that list since Park51 plays on basic human emotions as opposed to dealing with the complexities of the economy.

89 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:47:30am

re: #87 Stonemason

There is no money yet for the Center, $18,000 in the bank, $100,000,000 or more still needed, according to much of what I have read. Two years is a very conservative estimate and you are probably correct about this being a welcome distraction.

And no, I didn’t say they created it, I said they were not bothered by it.

And did I say they created this… no.

90 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:47:45am

The bottom line, in any case: in a legal sense it does not matter how the public “feels” about this.

I really meant it when I called this a textbook example of populist demagoguery. The madness of crowds. A little lesson in human behavior — how easily people can be misled by fearmongering and appeals to latent or not-so-latent bigotry.

91 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:48:59am

re: #88 Gus 802

I see it as a problem. As far as Nancy and Harry I’d include other politicians in that list since Park51 plays on basic human emotions as opposed to dealing with the complexities of the economy.

That’s right… New York governor Patterson even has waffled on this…

92 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:49:33am

re: #90 Charles

The bottom line, in any case: in a legal sense it does not matter how the public “feels” about this.

I really meant it when I called this a textbook example of populist demagoguery. The madness of crowds. A little lesson in human behavior — how easily people can be misled by fearmongering and appeals to latent or not-so-latent bigotry.

100% agree, no margin of error!

93 sagehen  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:52:07am

re: #63 RogueOne

I wonder why the numbers in Manhattan are 20% higher than the rest of the city. Anything in the numbers to suggest why?

Partly it’s that Manhattanites are more liberal than people in the outer boroughs.

And partly it’s that Manhattanites are the ones who’d actually be in a position to make use of a community center in lower Manhattan. We’re the ones who’d be going to the lecture series or film series, or swimming in their pool, or taking cooking classes or belly dance classes, or renting the event space that costs 1/10 as much as a banquet hall at the Hilton, or dumping our grandmas there during heat waves to enjoy the air conditioning, or putting our kids in playgroups too large for our homes when it’s too cold to take them to the park…

94 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:53:05am

Individual self control is an art that is not inherent in any one!
Feelings are a knee jerk reaction that could easily be controlled
by first THINKING ,establishing your thoughts and then
expressing or not expressing your feelings based on thinking it thru to it’s true conclusion. Your / our feelings should always
follow clear thought!
I’m GUILTY of both !

95 captdiggs  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:53:26am

re: #83 Walter L. Newton

And that’s a problem? I bet Nancy and Harry are tickled pink that this mosque thing is keeping peoples minds off the economic turmoil.

Bingo

The fed downgrades the economic outlook, Fannie Mae predicts that home values will fall further, Geithner says the 9.5% unemployment numbers will get worse, before it gets better. Not to mention two upcoming corruption trials for prominent democrats just before an election.

96 wrenchwench  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:53:47am

re: #93 sagehen

Partly it’s that Manhattanites are more liberal than people in the outer boroughs.

And partly it’s that Manhattanites are the ones who’d actually be in a position to make use of a community center in lower Manhattan. We’re the ones who’d be going to the lecture series or film series, or swimming in their pool, or taking cooking classes or belly dance classes, or renting the event space that costs 1/10 as much as a banquet hall at the Hilton, or dumping our grandmas there during heat waves to enjoy the air conditioning, or putting our kids in playgroups too large for our homes when it’s too cold to take them to the park…

You mean—it’s a good thing in itself?!? What a thought!

97 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:54:04am

re: #95 captdiggs

Buzz killer!
/

98 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:54:46am

Charles …. good job on this very polarizing story. When it comes to your support for Israel, the fact that you also are demanding that muslims be protected by the constitution shows you are as close to objective as possible. It enhances your credibility.

99 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:55:00am

re: #95 captdiggs

Bingo

The fed downgrades the economic outlook, Fannie Mae predicts that home values will fall further, Geithner says the 9.5% unemployment numbers will get worse, before it gets better. Not to mention two upcoming corruption trials for prominent democrats just before an election.

Everyone knows that all George Bush’s fault.

//

100 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:55:15am

OT:
RIP Former Rep. Dan Rostenkowski.

Dan Rostenkowski, a legendary wheeler-dealer who dominated the House for more than three decades, died today. The Associated Press reports that he was surrounded by family at a lakeside home in Wisconsin.

Rostenkowski, 82, served in the House from 1959 to 1995. At the peak of his power, “Rosty,” as he became known, chaired the House Ways and Means Committee, one of the most influential panels on Capitol Hill because it writes the nation’s tax laws. Later, he went to jail for misusing the perks of his office. He enjoyed something of a public relations rehabilitation when he emerged, appearing from time to time as a political sage. In 2008, he did an oral history interview about his time in politics, available on C-SPAN.

Then-president Bill Clinton pardoned Rostenkowski in 2000.

101 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:55:16am

re: #90 Charles

The bottom line, in any case: in a legal sense it does not matter how the public “feels” about this.

I really meant it when I called this a textbook example of populist demagoguery. The madness of crowds. A little lesson in human behavior — how easily people can be misled by fearmongering and appeals to latent or not-so-latent bigotry.

The real bottom line IS how the public feels about it, because a lot of times politicians will begin to overreact if popular opinion becomes too… well… popular.

In WWI, three members of Jehovah’s Witnesses board of directors were imprisoned for 20 years, because their magazine opposed the war and claim that if was a Papist inspired war. Crazy stuff yes, but they were put in prison for sedition… they were released after 6 months… but they had to fight the case.

During WWII, we confiscated radios of German-American citizens worried that they would be using the radios to either communicated with the fatherland, or listen to propaganda from Germany.

And of course, the Japanese interments… no more needs to be said about that.

Populist opinion can lead to illegal and unconstitutional behavior.

102 RogueOne  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:55:48am

re: #93 sagehen

Partly it’s that Manhattanites are more liberal than people in the outer boroughs.

And partly it’s that Manhattanites are the ones who’d actually be in a position to make use of a community center in lower Manhattan. We’re the ones who’d be going to the lecture series or film series, or swimming in their pool, or taking cooking classes or belly dance classes, or renting the event space that costs 1/10 as much as a banquet hall at the Hilton, or dumping our grandmas there during heat waves to enjoy the air conditioning, or putting our kids in playgroups too large for our homes when it’s too cold to take them to the park…

That’s probably most of it but without the raw numbers it’s hard to tell. It just seems odd that their results are the mirror opposite of the rest of the city. The poll does say that it’s +/- 4 with the margin of error increasing with cross-tabulation so that might play a part in it too.

103 blueraven  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:55:56am

re: #5 lawhawk

I posted this on the last thread but everyone had moved on so again

That poll shows no breakdown of voter party. How many democrats, republicans, conservatives, liberals etc…

The only breakdown I see is this

This survey of 809 New York City residents was conducted July 28th through August 5th, 2010. Residents 18 years of age and older were interviewed by telephone. Telephone numbers were selected based upon a list of telephone exchanges from throughout the city. The exchanges were selected to ensure that each borough was represented in proportion to its population. Interviews were conducted in both English and Spanish. Results are statistically significant at ±3.5%. There are 696 Registered Voters. The results for this subset are statistically significant at ±4.0. The error margin increases for cross-tabulations.

The self identification of those polled hold a significant effect on the results, and should be included in any reliable poll. Maybe I missed that info?

104 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:56:45am

re: #86 brownbagj

See how easy that was?

Yes, you too can be a brain-dead bigot, just by following the easy steps in “Hating for Dummies,” the newest book in the “For Dummies” series. You can learn such skills as:

- Seven Degrees of Terrorism: Linking the person or group of your hatred to the worst terrorist groups in existence, using the most convoluted logic possible.

- Constitutional Origami: Finding various and sundry ways to bend and fold the Constitution so that Christian fundies and various religious fruitloops can enjoy all the freedoms and rights our Founding Fathers intended, but not the religion you hate.

- Hypocrisy, Schmocrisy: Learn how to advocate using groups or minorities you hate with a passion as tools to further your hate, such as setting up a gay bar next to an Islamic community center.

- Stalinism, Wow!: And finally, discover how to whitewash and erase entire sections of actual history, doing away with those icky things like wars in the name of your God, persecution, inquisitions, and other inconvenient facts.

Yes, this book has got it all and is available now at a major bookseller near you.

///

105 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:57:08am

re: #100 lawhawk

OT:
RIP Former Rep. Dan Rostenkowski.

what is it about that job that seems to lead its holders to trouble of some sort? Rosty was first, then Charlie.

106 albusteve  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:57:59am

re: #105 _RememberTonyC

what is it about that job that seems to lead its holders to trouble of some sort? Rosty was first, then Charlie.

power

107 RadicalModerate  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:58:12am

One question for the Gellers/Limbaughs of the world:

WHAT PART OF “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF” do you idiots not understand?

Its the first damned sentence of the Bill of Rights.

108 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:58:34am

re: #83 Walter L. Newton

And that’s a problem? I bet Nancy and Harry are tickled pink that this mosque thing is keeping peoples minds off the economic turmoil.

You think the Dems would exploit and fan the flames of this mosque controversy in order to divert attention from the economy, and in order to reduce their losses in the mid-terms?
That’s so sick that it could be true, except that according to the poll Bloomberg is paying a steep political price for the controversy.

109 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:59:14am

re: #103 blueraven

The poll does break down support by political party, but it doesn’t provide how many people those percentages represents.

For Against Unsure
Registered Voters 34% 53% 13%
Party Registration
Democrat 38% 50% 12%
Republican 16% 74% 11%
Non-enrolled 35% 52% 13%

110 deranged cat  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:59:17am

ps.. i read a comment the other day on LGF that was pretty cool, but i can’t find it. it went along the lines of “being reasonable is disagreeing with someone one day, but having the ability to agree with them the next”

does that ring a bell for anyone?

111 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:59:25am

re: #106 albusteve

power

well …. there is that!

112 abolitionist  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 10:59:59am

re: #85 Spare O’Lake

I referred to page 4 of the poll results at [Link: maristpoll.marist.edu…] I think if you re-read it you will agree with me, but in any case that is my source.

Error 404 for that link; checked twice.

113 sagehen  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:00:16am

re: #104 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yes, you too can be a brain-dead bigot, just by following the easy steps in “Hating for Dummies,” the newest book in the “For Dummies” series. You can learn such skills as:

- Seven Degrees of Terrorism: Linking the person or group of your hatred to the worst terrorist groups in existence, using the most convoluted logic possible.

It’s like the 21st century version of Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon.

114 albusteve  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:00:26am

re: #107 RadicalModerate

One question for the Gellers/Limbaughs of the world:

WHAT PART OF “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF” do you idiots not understand?

Its the first damned sentence of the Bill of Rights.

I’ve been saying for a couple of years, the 1st is gonna come under some serious scrutiny one day

115 captdiggs  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:01:39am

re: #108 Spare O’Lake

You think the Dems would exploit and fan the flames of this mosque controversy in order to divert attention from the economy, and in order to reduce their losses in the mid-terms?
That’s so sick that it could be true, except that according to the poll Bloomberg is paying a steep political price for the controversy.

I don’t think he meant that.
I took his point to be that they don’t mind the mosque controversy being front page instead of the economy or Charlie Rangel’s corruption charges.

116 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:01:47am

re: #108 Spare O’Lake

You think the Dems would exploit and fan the flames of this mosque controversy in order to divert attention from the economy, and in order to reduce their losses in the mid-terms?
That’s so sick that it could be true, except that according to the poll Bloomberg is paying a steep political price for the controversy.

Wow… you certainly took a simple statement of mine and turned it into a who lot of what I never said. You do that often to people on here. Why?

117 blueraven  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:02:58am

re: #109 lawhawk

The poll does break down support by political party, but it doesn’t provide how many people those percentages represents.

Yes I understand that, but if out of the 800+ people polled only 25%, or 200 of them are self described democrats or liberals, that might have a big effect on the outcome, right?

118 M. Dubious  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:04:12am

re: #110 deranged cat

That’s pretty good. If there are no takers, I’ll claim it.

119 deranged cat  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:04:58am

re: #118 harald

i -will- find it. haha

120 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:05:07am

re: #115 captdiggs

I don’t think he meant that.
I took his point to be that they don’t mind the mosque controversy being front page instead of the economy or Charlie Rangel’s corruption charges.

i think charlie is like lots of pols …. he wants to give to others but also wants to give to himself. personal opinions aside, his speech in the well yesterday was damn impressive. he went 35 minutes without a prompter and the dude is 80 years old. He seized the moment.

121 Stanley Sea  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:05:18am

re: #110 deranged cat

ps.. i read a comment the other day on LGF that was pretty cool, but i can’t find it. it went along the lines of “being reasonable is disagreeing with someone one day, but having the ability to agree with them the next”

does that ring a bell for anyone?

I think it was this one by Cato.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

122 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:07:08am

re: #100 lawhawk

OT:
RIP Former Rep. Dan Rostenkowski.

RIP.

I wonder, though -
Why is it so many get in trouble for “abusing” the perks of their office?

Could it possibly be that some of the ethics rules are too damned complicated?

(spoken by a former public employee who found it impossible, in ten years time, to find an attorney to tell me what, exactly, the La. Ethics laws actually meant).

123 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:07:13am

re: #112 abolitionist

Error 404 for that link; checked twice.

Use this one, and then click on the blue link after the second paragraph of the story:
[Link: maristpoll.marist.edu…]

124 teambru  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:08:46am

Charles,

I take issue with your statement that: “Support for violating the US Constitution and depriving American citizens of their rights is especially strong among New York Republicans.” The pole you cite only shows that a majority of NY Republicans “oppose” the construction of Cordoba House or Park 51 or whatever it is called. But saying that you oppose construction of the community center is not the same as saying that those who plan to build the center have no right from doing so. Indeed, those people who are announcing their opposition to the mosque are exercising their rights to free speech and freedom of religion just as the group seeking to build the mosque is exercising its rights.

By way of example, I strongly oppose anarchy, but I recognize that anarchists have a right to peacefully state their beliefs (what they don’t have a right to do is to destroy the private property of others during G20 meetings). In much the same way, I oppose Park 51 because I have concerns about the commitment of its backers to creating a true inter-faith dialog and about the sources of their funding for building the center. But regardless of my concerns, I still recognize that those behind the project have a right to proceed. Not everyone who has concerns about the project or its backers is of the same mindset as Pamela Geller, and when you lump all of those people in with her, you engage in the same type of bigotry about which you complain.

125 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:09:05am
I wonder why the numbers in Manhattan are 20% higher than the rest of the city. Anything in the numbers to suggest why?

Because Manhattan tends to be more liberal than the rest of the city, and liberals tend to be more tolerant.

126 sagehen  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:09:36am

re: #122 reine.de.tout

RIP.

I wonder, though -
Why is it so many get in trouble for “abusing” the perks of their office?

Could it possibly be that some of the ethics rules are too damned complicated?

Maybe it just says something about the kind of personalities that are likely to run for office in the first place.

127 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:10:34am

re: #125 Fozzie Bear

Because Manhattan tends to be more liberal than the rest of the city, and liberals tend to be more tolerant.

Bwahahahahaha! Good one!

Now that’s funny right there.

128 deranged cat  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:10:55am

re: #121 Stanley Sea

I think it was this one by Cato.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]


damn youre good! thank you!!

re: #118 harald
credit goes to Cato, sorry :P

129 Gus  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:12:14am

Well, time to go hide. Later.

130 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:12:58am

re: #127 NJDhockeyfan

Bwahahahahaha! Good one!

Now that’s funny right there.

Well, it is certainly true, at least in your case, that conservatives tend to be less tolerant.

131 Stanley Sea  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:13:10am

re: #128 deranged cat

damn youre good! thank you!!

re: #118 harald
credit goes to Cato, sorry :P

I favorited it. I love it, it is so amazingly to the point.

132 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:13:54am

re: #127 NJDhockeyfan

Bwahahahahaha! Good one!

Now that’s funny right there.

i try not to generalize and use the term “liberals” casually, but if a member of their own side wants to engage in generalization about how tolerant they all are, they could also add ‘they’ are more “naive” (in some cases).

133 abolitionist  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:13:56am

re: #123 Spare O’Lake

Use this one, and then click on the blue link after the second paragraph of the story:
[Link: maristpoll.marist.edu…]

Thanks, that worked. The referenced link is a pdf file.

134 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:14:03am

re: #116 Walter L. Newton

Wow… you certainly took a simple statement of mine and turned it into a who lot of what I never said. You do that often to people on here. Why?

I extrapolated from your statement, took it to it’s logical conclusion and framed it as a question. It’s a common debating technique, I think.
BTW, what did you mean when you stated that Pelosi and Reed would be tickled pink to have the mosque keep people’s minds off the economy…were you just commenting in a vacuum on their general state of happiness?

135 Stonemason  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:14:46am

re: #124 teambru


A lesson in how to take Karma from 0 to negative numbers with one post…

Everyone who opposes the Park 51 center is either a bigot or a loser tool of bigots.

136 Stonemason  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:16:46am

re: #116 Walter L. Newton

Wow… you certainly took a simple statement of mine and turned it into a who lot of what I never said. You do that often to people on here. Why?


That’s why I added my disclaimer to my original post. It doesn’t always work, but it does help.

137 M. Dubious  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:18:07am

re: #128 deranged cat

Alright. How about this one of mine: “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”?

138 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:20:38am

re: #132 _RememberTonyC

i try not to generalize and use the term “liberals” casually, but if a member of their own side wants to engage in generalization about how tolerant they all are, they could also add ‘they’ are more “naive” (in some cases).

Look at issues of homosexuality, religions other than Christianity, etc.

When it comes to acceptance of lifestyles/cultures/religions/creeds differing from one’s own, the American left does tend to be more tolerant than the American right. This is borne out in the case of public opinion regarding the park51 mosque, certainly, when comparing public opinion in Manhattan, relative to public opinion elsewhere in NYC.

I wouldn’t expect a self-described conservative to acknowledge it, though.

139 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:22:34am

re: #137 harald

Alright. How about this one of mine: “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”?

Wow, I didn’t realize we had Rabbi Hillel posting here…welcome.

140 Stonemason  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:23:46am

re: #138 Fozzie Bear

Look at issues of homosexuality, religions other than Christianity, etc.

When it comes to acceptance of lifestyles/cultures/religions/creeds differing from one’s own, the American left does tend to be more tolerant than the American right. This is borne out in the case of public opinion regarding the park51 mosque, certainly, when comparing public opinion in Manhattan, relative to public opinion elsewhere in NYC.

I wouldn’t expect a self-described conservative to acknowledge it, though.


LOL

Coming from someone who called all of Middle America “a bunch of racist backward ——s from the stone age. In other words, middle Americans.”

141 abolitionist  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:25:12am

re: #133 abolitionist

Correction. The link labeled Click Here for Complete August 10, 2010 NYC Poll Release and Tables is only page one of a 15-page pdf document. A quote from page 1: *** Complete tables for poll appended ***

142 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:25:27am

re: #122 reine.de.tout

Maybe it’s because so many politicians don’t seem to be bothered by it - or being surrounded by those who have ethics problems. Major Democrats are still planning to attend Rangel’s birthday bash at the Plaza hotel in Manhattan tonight, including Sens. Schumer and Gillenbrand, Gov. Paterson, candidate and AG Andy Cuomo, etc.

Instead of distancing themselves from the toxic Rangel, they’re showing up. It’s an attack ad that writes itself…

143 deranged cat  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:26:08am

re: #131 Stanley Sea

thanks again man. it wouldve bothered me all day!

144 M. Dubious  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:28:10am

re: #139 Spare O’Lake

Wow, I didn’t realize we had Rabbi Hillel posting here…welcome.

Now that dude - he’s been stealing my thunder for years.

145 albusteve  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:28:11am

I don’t think human nature is politically partisan…it’s amazing tho, how hard people try to frame behavior in that way…almost comical

146 teambru  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:28:41am

re: #135 Stonemason

The nice thing about painting with such a broad brush is that it fills in all of the crevices.

147 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:28:44am

re: #140 Stonemason

LOL

Coming from someone who called all of Middle America “a bunch of racist backward —-s from the stone age. In other words, middle Americans.”

Disdain != intolerance.

I would note my disdain for middle (non-coastal) America arises precisely from my experiences with rather incredible displays of intolerance there. I would never argue for anyone to force them to be otherwise. I tolerate it. I don’t have to like it.

It should further be noted I was describing the RNC base. I stand by that. The GOP really is a backward remnant of the worst aspects of America’s long history of hatred and intolerance.

Thirdly, piss off.

148 albusteve  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:29:05am

re: #142 lawhawk

Maybe it’s because so many politicians don’t seem to be bothered by it - or being surrounded by those who have ethics problems. Major Democrats are still planning to attend Rangel’s birthday bash at the Plaza hotel in Manhattan tonight, including Sens. Schumer and Gillenbrand, Gov. Paterson, candidate and AG Andy Cuomo, etc.

Instead of distancing themselves from the toxic Rangel, they’re showing up. It’s an attack ad that writes itself…

boy, are they tolerant or what?

149 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:30:28am

You can poke fun at the point, but it is manifestly true that very little of the vocal opposition to the mosque comes from liberal circles. It is almost entirely a right-wing phenomenon.

150 albusteve  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:30:29am

now tolerance can be measured geographically!…awesome!

151 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:33:23am

re: #63 RogueOne

I wonder why the numbers in Manhattan are 20% higher than the rest of the city. Anything in the numbers to suggest why?

sanity?

152 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:36:57am

re: #138 Fozzie Bear

Look at issues of homosexuality, religions other than Christianity, etc.

When it comes to acceptance of lifestyles/cultures/religions/creeds differing from one’s own, the American left does tend to be more tolerant than the American right. This is borne out in the case of public opinion regarding the park51 mosque, certainly, when comparing public opinion in Manhattan, relative to public opinion elsewhere in NYC.

I wouldn’t expect a self-described conservative to acknowledge it, though.

dude …. YOU generalized about a whole lot of people, and due to your thin skin, you thought I disagreed with you, which i did not. I just ADDED another word. how old are you, anyway? 21-22? Toughen up friend and don’t assume things out of youthful zeal.

153 garhighway  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:38:17am

re: #124 teambru

Charles,

I take issue with your statement that: “Support for violating the US Constitution and depriving American citizens of their rights is especially strong among New York Republicans.” The pole you cite only shows that a majority of NY Republicans “oppose” the construction of Cordoba House or Park 51 or whatever it is called. But saying that you oppose construction of the community center is not the same as saying that those who plan to build the center have no right from doing so. Indeed, those people who are announcing their opposition to the mosque are exercising their rights to free speech and freedom of religion just as the group seeking to build the mosque is exercising its rights.

By way of example, I strongly oppose anarchy, but I recognize that anarchists have a right to peacefully state their beliefs (what they don’t have a right to do is to destroy the private property of others during G20 meetings). In much the same way, I oppose Park 51 because I have concerns about the commitment of its backers to creating a true inter-faith dialog and about the sources of their funding for building the center. But regardless of my concerns, I still recognize that those behind the project have a right to proceed. Not everyone who has concerns about the project or its backers is of the same mindset as Pamela Geller, and when you lump all of those people in with her, you engage in the same type of bigotry about which you complain.

So you “have concerns”?

154 Nimed  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:39:46am

The take home message here is that Manhattanites rock. Don’t you forget it, people.

155 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:39:50am

re: #153 garhighway

So you “have concerns”?

a troglodyte with concerns?

156 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:41:15am

re: #152 _RememberTonyC

dude … YOU generalized about a whole lot of people, and due to your thin skin, you thought I disagreed with you, which i did not. I just ADDED another word. how old are you, anyway? 21-22? Toughen up friend and don’t assume things out of youthful zeal.

I actually don’t at all disagree with your point regarding naivete. I’m not sure why you think I do. It is true that liberals, especially less moderate ones, tend to be naive regarding human nature, in the sense that they assume positive motives of people who exhibit none. (I’m thinking of Hamas, in particular.)

My skin is unharmed, as are my feelings. I didn’t even think you necessarily disagreed. I think you are trying a little too hard to understand the emotions of people with whom you are discussing, frankly.

157 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:44:03am

re: #6 sagehen

I’ll never understand why people who watched 9/11 on TV, from places that will never be at any kind of risk of terrorism, were so much more traumatized than people who walked down 70 flights of stairs, dodged falling debris and smelled the burning flesh.

It just boggles the mind.

I recall that some small town in…crap, I can’t remember the state, but I want to say Wisconsin…cancelled their elementary school’s trip to the pumpkin patch that Halloween, out of fears of terrorism.

Not kidding.

Meanwhile, my Manhattan friends and relatives were saying things like “Well, yeah, it’s still like breathing in a vacuum cleaner, and everything I own is covered in ash, and Have You Seen…? notices line the streets, but otherwise we’re OK.”

158 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:47:45am

re: #156 Fozzie Bear

I actually don’t at all disagree with your point regarding naivete. I’m not sure why you think I do. It is true that liberals, especially less moderate ones, tend to be naive regarding human nature, in the sense that they assume positive motives of people who exhibit none. (I’m thinking of Hamas, in particular.)

My skin is unharmed, as are my feelings. I didn’t even think you necessarily disagreed. I think you are trying a little too hard to understand the emotions of people with whom you are discussing, frankly.

since you never acknowledged agreement with my comment, and proceded to spout off about the stuff I didn’t address, why would i think you agreed with anything in my post? and the gratuitous slap at the end of your comment was uncalled for. If you piss on my leg, don’t try to tell me it’s raining.

159 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:49:58am

re: #60 Cineaste

Let’s follow wing nut logic:

Terrorists attack us because they hate our freedom. Terrorists attack us because they hate real American values. Coastal liberal elites don’t understand real American values and freedom because we believe in things like abortion rights and marriage equality. But terrorists attack us in those places that are most liberal. Therefore aren’t those places the most free?

It’s possible that we could see a weird, Phelpsian/Rand&Ron Paul/Tea Party confluence occur where the wing nut brigade begins saying that it’s liberal values that are making us get attacked…

This leads nowhere good.

See Falwell, September 13, 2001.

160 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:54:17am

re: #154 Nimed

The take home message here is that Manhattanites rock. Don’t you forget it, people.

We always knew that.

161 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:56:52am

later folks

162 teambru  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:59:15am

re: #155 wozzablog

Your argument loses force when you resort to calling another person names to make it. I attempted to explain my disagreement with Charles’s position in civilized and polite manner. I would appreciate the same courtesy in return.

163 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 12:00:03pm

re: #130 Fozzie Bear

Well, it is certainly true, at least in your case, that conservatives tend to be less tolerant.

I’m sorry, I didn’t understand how tolerant the Progs can be…

N.H. Dem wishes Palin ill

A Democratic candidate for state representative in New Hampshire expresses, on Facebook naturally, the wish that Sarah Palin and Levi Johnston had gone down with Ted Stevens’s plane.

Nice tolerance there.

164 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 12:02:48pm

re: #163 NJDhockeyfan

I’m sorry, I didn’t understand how tolerant the Progs can be…

N.H. Dem wishes Palin ill

Nice tolerance there.

Two things:

1. What an asshole.

2. If we start playing the ‘a Democrat said X, which means Y about liberals’ game, we’re gonna be here a while, and I’m not taking odds on who comes out looking less tasteful.

165 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 12:03:38pm

re: #164 SanFranciscoZionist

Two things:

1. What an asshole.

2. If we start playing the ‘a Democrat said X, which means Y about liberals’ game, we’re gonna be here a while, and I’m not taking odds on who comes out looking less tasteful.

Actually, three things. Get rid of the ‘prog’ label. It doesn’t mean what you think it means, and it’s really, really stupid.

166 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 12:04:16pm

re: #154 Nimed

The take home message here is that Manhattanites rock. Don’t you forget it, people.

Thank you very much! Just don’t say it too often, we Manhattanites wouldn’t want to start becoming egotistical and narcissistic.
/

167 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 12:05:17pm

re: #162 teambru

I didn’t see anything other than (paraphrasing) “these people may possibly at some point down the line not stick to what they said vis-a-vis the multicultural swimming pool”…………….

168 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 12:06:05pm

re: #164 SanFranciscoZionist

Two things:

1. What an asshole.

2. If we start playing the ‘a Democrat said X, which means Y about liberals’ game, we’re gonna be here a while, and I’m not taking odds on who comes out looking less tasteful.

I agree completely. I just wanted to show Fozzie how stupid his statement was. Intolerance belongs to no specific political party. They both do it.

169 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 12:06:41pm

re: #168 NJDhockeyfan

I agree completely. I just wanted to show Fozzie how stupid his statement was. Intolerance belongs to no specific political party. They both do it.

I can live with that. But seriously, lose the ‘prog’.

170 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 12:12:58pm

re: #158 _RememberTonyC

since you never acknowledged agreement with my comment, and proceded to spout off about the stuff I didn’t address, why would i think you agreed with anything in my post? and the gratuitous slap at the end of your comment was uncalled for. If you piss on my leg, don’t try to tell me it’s raining.

A fair point. That wasn’t rain, I was pissing on your leg, and it was uncalled for.

However, when you are right, you are right. More than once, I have found myself facepalming at people (liberals) who, for instance, assumed that the passengers on the Rachel Corrie were “just protesting the blockade”. If that isn’t naive, nothing is.

171 jordash1212  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 12:20:26pm

So there is some silver lining after all this stir. I can’t wait to see how the bigots scramble to rationalize these data to fit their hate.

172 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 12:24:03pm

re: #166 Surabaya Stew

Thank you very much! Just don’t say it too often, we Manhattanites wouldn’t want to start becoming egotistical and narcissistic.
/

As a Manhattanite, I just don’t care much about Cordoba House. They have every right to build it and I support them in their efforts to do so against bigotry and un-american ‘activists’, but I care not much about them; (exactly as I feel about the YMCA or the 92nd Street Y). I feel a bit like Steve here in that I really don’t get all the fuss; but when one considers that hate is an issue, then it all comes together.

173 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 12:29:03pm

re: #98 _RememberTonyC

Charles … good job on this very polarizing story. When it comes to your support for Israel, the fact that you also are demanding that muslims be protected by the constitution shows you are as close to objective as possible. It enhances your credibility.

Thank you for the words of support!

174 simoom  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 12:58:03pm

I wish these polls would always have a second question that is phrased somewhat differently. In addition to the standard:

Do you favor or oppose the building of an Islamic community center and prayer space two blocks from the site of the World Trade Center?

I’d also like see something along the lines of:

Do you favor or oppose government intervention to stop the building of an Islamic community center and prayer space two blocks from the site of the World Trade Center?

Because, while the former is what is always polled, the latter is how the opponents of Park51 and the media always interpret what was polled. While I both favor the community center’s building, and oppose government intervention, I could easily see folks who would never favor the building of any house of worship outside their own faith’s, while still opposing unconstitutional government intervention in the free exercise of religion.

175 acacia  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 1:08:06pm

re: #174 simoom

I couldn’t agree with you more. Those are two distinct questions and the second is far more relevant.

176 skullkrusher  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 1:21:58pm

I like the support for Cordoba House, LGF. Well done on keeping the feet to the fire for those whose feet need firing. However, I am a bit confused about “Manhattan residents — the people who live and work near Ground Zero, and who experienced the 9/11 attacks first hand”. The vast majority of rescue workers that day were not Manhattan residents. Many people in the outer boroughs live closer to the site than people in many parts of Manhattan and everyone in NYC that day experienced the attacks first hand - not just those who live in New York County.

177 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 1:46:17pm

As Skullrusher just pointed out, Charles, your extrapolation is not necessarily accurate. In fact, MANY of the people killed in the collapse of the towers were support staff and others who do not live in Manhattan, and many of the white collar workers killed actually lived in the suburbs of New York City. In addition, many who are registered voters in Manhattan in 2010 (which appears to be the basis of the polling) may not have lived anywhere near New York City 9 years ago. Many of today’s Manhattan residents were high school or college students elsewhere in the world in September 2001. The supposition that “Manhattan residents [are] the people who live and work near Ground Zero, and who experienced the 9/11 attacks first hand” is not necessarily accurate.

The far more likely explanation for the polling results, as several have suggested, is that Manhattan residents tend to self-identify (and vote) as liberals on a far greater scale than the largely blue-collar residents of the other boroughs in New York City. I suspect that if the polling results could be broken down to reflect how respondends within Manhattan identified their general political leanings (i.e., liberal, moderate, conservative) or if a statistical analysis could be done to account for the different proportions of respondents in each borough who identified as liberal/moderate/conservative, the results would show that liberal Manhattanites’ views and liberal Staten Islanders’ views were similar, as are the views of conservative Manhattanites and conservative Staten Islanders.

178 wrenchwench  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 1:58:25pm

re: #177 sliv_the_eli

The far more likely explanation for the polling results, as several have suggested, is that Manhattan residents tend to self-identify (and vote) as liberals on a far greater scale than the largely blue-collar residents of the other boroughs in New York City. I suspect that if the polling results could be broken down to reflect how respondends within Manhattan identified their general political leanings (i.e., liberal, moderate, conservative) or if a statistical analysis could be done to account for the different proportions of respondents in each borough who identified as liberal/moderate/conservative, the results would show that liberal Manhattanites’ views and liberal Staten Islanders’ views were similar, as are the views of conservative Manhattanites and conservative Staten Islanders.

Or maybe they’re for it because they look forward to it:

Partly it’s that Manhattanites are more liberal than people in the outer boroughs.

And partly it’s that Manhattanites are the ones who’d actually be in a position to make use of a community center in lower Manhattan. We’re the ones who’d be going to the lecture series or film series, or swimming in their pool, or taking cooking classes or belly dance classes, or renting the event space that costs 1/10 as much as a banquet hall at the Hilton, or dumping our grandmas there during heat waves to enjoy the air conditioning, or putting our kids in playgroups too large for our homes when it’s too cold to take them to the park…

179 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 2:04:27pm

re: #178 wrenchwench

I do not doubt that for some, and particularly for Muslim residents who might view Cordoba House as their version of the 92nd Street Y, that is a reason for support. In general, however, the population of Manhattanites who actually make use of cultural centers and similar organizations for those purposes, much less for whom that would be part of their calculus in determining their view on the Cordoba House project, is relatively small.

180 teambru  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 2:38:07pm

re: #167 wozzablog

Well, one of my concerns is that organizations don’t choose names accidentally. Here, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and the other backers of this project initially called it the “Cordoba House.” As Victor Davis Hanson recently pointed out, Cordoba has different meanings depending on the audience and the time period involved:

The very name of the initiative itself, “Cordoba,” offers different connotations to different people: In the West, the Andalusian city of Cordoba is regularly touted as the model of medieval Muslim progressiveness and tolerance for Christians and Jews. To many Americans, then, the choice to name the mosque “Cordoba” is suggestive of rapprochement and interfaith dialogue; atop the rubble of 9/11, it implies “healing” — a new beginning between Muslims and Americans. The Cordoba Initiative’s mission statement certainly suggests as much:

Cordoba Initiative aims to achieve a tipping point in Muslim-West relations within the next decade, bringing back the atmosphere of interfaith tolerance and respect that we have longed for since Muslims, Christians and Jews lived together in harmony and prosperity eight hundred years ago.

Oddly enough, the so-called “tolerant” era of Cordoba supposedly occurred during the caliphate of ‘Abd al-Rahman III (912-961) — well over a thousand years ago. “Eight hundred years ago,” i.e., around 1200, the fanatical Almohids — ideological predecessors of al Qaeda — were ravaging Cordoba, where “Christians and Jews were given the choice of conversion, exile, or death.”

A Freudian slip on the part of the Cordoba Initiative?

Personally, I find it hard to believe that the double meaning of the project’s original name was lost on Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and the other project supporters. And, strangely, since Mr. Hanson wrote this piece in late July, the Cordoba Institute has changed both the name for the community center, which is now the very secular sounding “Park 51,” and its own mission statement, which now makes no reference to the city of Cordoba.

181 skullkrusher  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 2:49:15pm

re: #180 teambru

assuming you are correct and he IS aware of the double meaning and, presumably, wants to launch his Islamification of the United States North American Tour, what does he possibly stand to gain by making this not-so-inside joke?

182 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 3:13:07pm

re: #170 Fozzie Bear

A fair point. That wasn’t rain, I was pissing on your leg, and it was uncalled for.

However, when you are right, you are right. More than once, I have found myself facepalming at people (liberals) who, for instance, assumed that the passengers on the Rachel Corrie were “just protesting the blockade”. If that isn’t naive, nothing is.


Good job, Foz :)

183 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 3:13:39pm

re: #173 Charles

Thank you for the words of support!

my pleasure

184 Reginald Perrin  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 3:43:22pm

re: #180 teambru

re: #181 skullkrusher

Two “sleepers”wake up and talk to each other on a dead thread, isn’t that cute?
The stalkers must be having orgasms.trol

You brainwashed idiots should get over not being wanted here and move on.
Don’t you realize how pathetic you appear to the grownups here?

185 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 4:11:32pm

Happens every time.

186 jayzee  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 4:24:51pm

I’m born and raised NY and I think that Cordoba house has every right to be built. Whether I feel it should be or shouldn’t be is irrelevant.

I would like to point out however that Manhattan residents are not the only ones that work around ground zero. A very significant number of victims lived in the outer boroughs and (NJ, LI, CT and NY) suburbs.

187 joest73  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 4:49:02pm

Is anyone surprised that a majority of people from Manhattan support the community center? Olbermann and Maddow aren’t liberal enough to fit in the liberal click in Manhattan. Remember the tolerance of “Manhattanites” at a McCain rally in 2008?

188 Reginald Perrin  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 5:10:34pm

re: #187 joest73

Your concern has been duly noted.

189 dbe928  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 7:02:47pm

What about the CNN poll showing 68% nationwide opposing the Two-Blocks-From-Ground-Zero-Mosque?


“Broken down by party affiliation, 54 percent of Democrats oppose the plans while 82 percent of Republicans disapprove. Meanwhile, 70 percent of independents said they are against the proposal.

The poll also showed opposition did not vary widely by age.”

190 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 8:07:31pm

It’s a sleeperfest!

191 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 9:05:14pm

Well, you know, Jews are kinda old school and boring as “National Enemies” besides they don’t really eat nearly as many Christian babies as most people claim they do…

///


Obviously we need a new, fresh and exciting “National Enemy” so the politicians can say “quick, look over there at the evil Muslims!” Of course this is only meant to distract you while they anally penetrate you, but hey, it still continues to work with quite a large percentage of electorate apparently, (go figure).

192 teambru  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 9:27:54pm

re: #184 Reginald Perrin

Whoa, what?? My first comment on this string occurred at 11:08 a.m (see comment 124). And my comment that you reference was a reply to a comment that wozzablog had about me (see comment 167). I never talked to Skullkrusher; he simply made a statement about my reply to wozzablog.

But I do enjoy the irony of you calling me “brainwashed” even though you were the one who attacked me as a “sleeper” and “stalker” without apparently having bothered to look at when I first commented on this string or why I had replied to wozzablog. It’s almost as if you are programmed to insult and disparage anyone who doesn’t toe the company line.

193 ClaudeMonet  Wed, Aug 11, 2010 11:36:19pm

re: #105 _RememberTonyC

what is it about that job that seems to lead its holders to trouble of some sort? Rosty was first, then Charlie.

Rosty “first”? Does anyone remember Wilbur Mills? I doubt that he was the first Ways & Means chair to think he was invulnerable, either.

194 Hieronymus Bosch  Thu, Aug 12, 2010 9:12:56am

Charles, just a thought here that I’d like your comment on — in the very recent past you’ve cited the ADL as a credible source. What’s your thought on their opposition to the building of the mosque?

My view is that the ADL ceased to be a relevant civil rights group decades ago, and largely coincides with Peter Beinart’s analysis here, which also notes that the ADL largely pretends that anti-Muslim bigotry does not exist in Israel. (Also note that the ADL supported George W. Bush’s invasion of Iraq, as if supporting an aggressive Neocon foreign policy is important in defending the civil rights of Jews and others, etc.)

195 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 12, 2010 9:28:16am

re: #194 Hieronymus Bosch

Charles, just a thought here that I’d like your comment on — in the very recent past you’ve cited the ADL as a credible source. What’s your thought on their opposition to the building of the mosque?

At the bottom of the post on the top of the page is a set of tags. Click on the one that says “Park51”. Scroll down a little and you will find at least two articles that tell what Charles thinks of the ADL’s position. They even have “ADL” in the title. But I suspect your main purpose is to spread your view, rather than learn something.

196 skullkrusher  Thu, Aug 12, 2010 10:30:34am

re: #184 Reginald Perrin

not sure what you’re taking issue with… Considering your response to joest73, I assume you favor the construction of the Cordoba House. As do I… I notice you minused both of my posts - the first of which expressed approval of LGF’s position on the issue while pointing out something I found a bit inaccurate. The second post you minused I was disagreeing with someone who thought there was some sinister double meaning behind using “Cordoba” in the title… you also -1’d his post… you really don’t know what you’re reading, do ya?

197 Hieronymus Bosch  Thu, Aug 12, 2010 11:02:59am

re: #195 wrenchwench

Actually, I was seriously wondering what Charles thought. I hadn’t seen his previous posts as I don’t check this blog everyday. Thanks for pointing me to those, but, please, assume good faith on the part of commenters.

198 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 12, 2010 1:15:37pm

re: #197 Hieronymus Bosch

Actually, I was seriously wondering what Charles thought. I hadn’t seen his previous posts as I don’t check this blog everyday. Thanks for pointing me to those, but, please, assume good faith on the part of commenters.

Since you don’t check the blog every day, it would be even more valuable to you to learn how to search it.

Rather than make an assumption about your “good faith”, I looked at your prior comments and made a judgment, then I acted on it. If you have anything besides your prior comments you’d like to share to influence my judgment, have at it.

199 Hieronymus Bosch  Thu, Aug 12, 2010 2:07:45pm

re: #198 wrenchwench

Which of my comments made you feel that I somehow was lacking in sincerity??

I could understand if you disagree with something, but why would you assume that I’m not interested in hearing what someone has to say?

I thought Beinart’s critque of the ADL (which ceased to be a credible organization a very long time ago and has an unfortunate tendency to treat Muslims differently than other minorities) was thoughtful, but apparently you disagree?

If you have anything besides your prior comments you’d like to share to influence my judgment, have at it.

Um, like my life story or a succinct explanation of my political views, or….?

200 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 12, 2010 2:22:42pm

re: #199 Hieronymus Bosch

Which of my comments made you feel that I somehow was lacking in sincerity??

I could understand if you disagree with something, but why would you assume that I’m not interested in hearing what someone has to say?

I thought Beinart’s critque of the ADL (which ceased to be a credible organization a very long time ago and has an unfortunate tendency to treat Muslims differently than other minorities) was thoughtful, but apparently you disagree?

Um, like my life story or a succinct explanation of my political views, or…?

Here’s a starting place. Did you look at what Charles’s thought’s on the ADL’s position are? What did you think?

201 Hieronymus Bosch  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:38:59am

I did read those comments, and I’m slightly confused because, again, the ADL is treated as some sort of font of credibility and its catering to anti-Muslim bigots is treated as somehow an aberration.

The ADL is not a “civil rights organization” so much as a hardline Likudnik spy network. Progressive Jews like Michael Lerner denounced the ADL years ago for smearing even the most moderate critics of Israeli policy as “anti-Semites.” I was not a commenter on LGF until very recently, but I’m well-aware of the site’s past as a far-right hate group against Muslims — I commend Charles for the maturing of his views (even if he hasn’t ever quite apologized for all the past incitements to genocide that occurred on this blog), and find it somewhat surreal (but in a good way) to see the recent set of highly-agreeable posts defending the civil rights of Muslims, contrasted with the set of truly extreme bigoted posts against Muslims from past years. But I find it strange that his views changed so quickly on virtually every single issue possible, except those relating to the Israeli far-right and its American apologists.

The true face of the ADL emerges when one notes its activities in the 1980s and 1990s illegally spying on anti-Apartheid activists inside the United States and passing along their information to the racist South African government. What sort of “civil rights organization” would engage in that sort of behavior? (Apartheid South Africa, even during its period of intense diplomatic isolation, was one of Israel’s key strategic allies. Israel was the only developed state in the world to maintain normal diplomatic relations with the Apartheid regime.)

I guess my thought is that I’m just surprised that Charles would have even expressed any surprise at all that the ADL would have catered to bigots, since they’ve been doing that for a very long time. I agree that Palin and Cantor are bigots for opposing the mosque (although, to be fair, their remarks are nowhere near as severe as the ones Charles himself made as recently as a couple of years ago on the subject of Islam), but the ADL’s coddling of these bigots is nowhere near as offensive as their aiding and abetting of the white racists in South Africa.

I hope that at least partially explains where I’m coming from. Let me know if you disagree or whatever.

202 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:46:46am

re: #201 Hieronymus Bosch

Get off my website, and while you’re at it, you can kiss my ass for that “incitements to genocide” remark.

203 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:49:19am

re: #202 Charles

1.) That email comment subscription thingy is way handy.

2.) You just saved me a bunch more typing. Thanks.

204 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:52:24am

re: #203 wrenchwench

1.) That email comment subscription thingy is way handy.

2.) You just saved me a bunch more typing. Thanks.

They always try to leave this crap at the end of threads about to be archived. And clearly, it’s not just the wingnuts who do it.


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