Charles Krauthammer Joins Everyone Else on the Right

Opinion • Views: 7,342

I’m beginning to feel like I’ve stumbled through an inter-dimensional portal into a Bizarro version of America, in which every single right wing politician, pundit, and blogger has been taken over by ranting, raving, illogical hyper-partisan doppelgangers, twisting and spinning themselves into weird pretzel shapes trying to find ways to rationalize prejudice, failing miserably, then congratulating themselves on their fabulous performances.

Today Charles Krauthammer joins the right wingers who are enabling the chorus of populist bigotry around the Cordoba House project, with an absurdly over the top op-ed titled: Sacrilege at Ground Zero.

Even when I’ve disagreed with him, I’ve always considered Krauthammer to be one of the more centrist right wing commentators; he’s pretty fair on science for a right winger— doesn’t deny evolution or global warming — and has called out the kooks on his own side more than once. But like most of the right, his positions have gradually become more extreme since Barack Obama was elected.

In this logically distorted piece, Krauthammer actually seems to be arguing that the government should step in and stop construction of Cordoba House, although he never quite gets around to saying that. But his justification is completely spurious:

America is a free country where you can build whatever you want — but not anywhere. That’s why we have zoning laws. No liquor store near a school, no strip malls where they offend local sensibilities, and, if your house doesn’t meet community architectural codes, you cannot build at all.

I honestly thought Krauthammer was better than this; his argument ignores the simple fact that none of the activities he lists — strip malls, liquor stores, etc. — are protected by the US Constitution. And that’s what I mean by my opening paragraph. What happened to the world in which people like Krauthammer supported and upheld the Constitution, instead of arguing for carving out special exceptions for certain demonized groups?

And this trend of suggesting possible ways the government could block the project, but never actually advocating blocking the project, is disturbing and very weaselish. Krauthammer should just come out and say it if he thinks the government should try to stop Cordoba House from being built, instead of indulging in this creepy sideways populism.

At its base, opposition to the Cordoba House project is based on simple paranoia — the fear that it’s actually a triumphalist statement celebrating the 9/11 attacks, and that it will harbor extremists plotting more evil against the US. And sure enough, Krauthammer goes there:

Who is to say that the mosque won’t one day hire an Anwar al-Aulaqi — spiritual mentor to the Fort Hood shooter and the Christmas Day bomber, and onetime imam at the Virginia mosque attended by two of the 9/11 terrorists?

“Who is to say that one day” the mosque might hire an Al Qaeda terrorist? What kind of argument is this, except pure fear-mongering?

The lead spokesman of the project, Imam Feisal Rauf, has made it crystal clear, in statement after statement and article after article, that he’s diametrically opposed to violent jihad and Islamic extremism. Mr. Rauf even represented the US overseas in Islamic countries for the Bush administration. On what grounds can Krauthammer possibly argue that his mosque might be used to fuel terrorism?

Krauthammer goes on:

These restrictions are for reasons of aesthetics. Others are for more profound reasons of common decency and respect for the sacred. No commercial tower over Gettysburg, no convent at Auschwitz — and no mosque at Ground Zero.

At this point, people like Krauthammer have no excuse for continuing to parrot the “Ground Zero Mosque” nonsense. It will be more than two blocks away in an area that can now best be described as “urban blight” (about the same distance from Ground Zero as a strip club called “New York Dolls”), it will have no view of Ground Zero, and it won’t just be a mosque, it will be a community center open to everyone, with a swimming pool, auditorium, restaurants and more.

Krauthammer can’t possibly be ignorant of these facts. So why is he still repeating the falsehoods?

Jump to bottom

579 comments
1 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:10:28am

Because he doesn't want the mosque built.

2 jamesfirecat  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:11:16am

"I’m beginning to feel like I’ve stumbled through an inter-dimensional portal into a Bizarro version of America, in which every single right wing politician, pundit, and blogger has been taken over by ranting, raving, illogical hyper-partisan doppelgangers, twisting and spinning themselves into weird pretzel shapes trying to find ways to rationalize prejudice, failing miserably, then congratulating themselves on their fabulous performances."

Well Mr. Krauthammer, in the words of Bart Simpson, "Welcome to THE OTHERS!"

3 Kragar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:11:24am

Money.

4 Kragar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:11:54am

re: #2 jamesfirecat

Join us. Join us.

5 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:12:24am

Welcome to irrationality, you can't ignore it & it has consequences. Buckle your seat belt and put on your crash helmet.

6 darthstar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:15:22am

I'm worried that people will flock to ground zero from around the world to drop exploding gay babies who will be US citizens on welfare that expect socialized medicine, a public education, and want the rich to pay higher taxes.

/need I?

7 darthstar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:16:45am

re: #6 darthstar

I'm worried that people will flock to ground zero from around the world to drop exploding gay babies who will be US citizens on welfare that expect socialized medicine, a public education, and want the rich to pay higher taxes.

/need I?

Oh...I see you've got a Gohmert's Pile story up as well...sorry...was in a meeting.

8 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:16:57am

Yeah...the jokes about Republicans being the "dark side"...ermm...not meant to be literal, CK et al.

9 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:18:19am

re: #8 Aceofwhat?

Yeah...the jokes about Republicans being the "dark side"...ermm...not meant to be literal, CK et al.

We are all ebil.
/

10 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:19:00am

re: #9 Cannadian Club Akbar

We are all ebil.
/

But we gots cookies.

11 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:19:10am

After 9-11, London, Madrid, Beslan, Bombay, the Washington sniper and on and on and on, this is hardly surprising. It may make no rational sense, but we are dealing not at all with rationality here. I would like to skip the next 200 years at least.

12 middy  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:19:13am

What a gutless turd.

13 ClaudeMonet  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:20:58am

re: #10 Cannadian Club Akbar

But we gots cookies.

And cheezburgerz.

14 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:21:00am

I like Gohmert's plan better: "Help us fill the hole! Help us fill the hole!"

I'm not sure which hole he's talking about, though: the one at "Ground Zero" or the one in his head.

15 captdiggs  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:21:14am

Hey...here's another

Ed Koch: Ground Zero Mosque 'Insensitive'
[Link: www.weeklystandard.com...]

He's a democrat, but...

16 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:21:54am

re: #13 ClaudeMonet

And cheezburgerz.

And stuffed jalapenos.

17 ClaudeMonet  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:21:59am

re: #14 Cato the Elder

I like Gohmert's plan better: "Help us fill the hole! Help us fill the hole!"

I'm not sure which hole he's talking about, though: the one at "Ground Zero" or the one in his head.

Both.

18 blueraven  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:22:59am

re: #11 Ojoe

After 9-11, London, Madrid, Beslan, Bombay, the Washington sniper and on and on and on, this is hardly surprising. It may make no rational sense, but we are dealing not at all with rationality here. I would like to skip the next 200 years at least.

But Krauthammer is supposed to be one of the "rational" conservative voices.
We are screwed!

19 rwmofo  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:23:05am

Overall Krauthammer is much more reasonable and far less divisive than the President (whose approval rating just fell below the taste of liver-flavored chewing gum).

20 darthstar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:23:22am

re: #14 Cato the Elder

I like Gohmert's plan better: "Help us fill the hole! Help us fill the hole!"

I'm not sure which hole he's talking about, though: the one at "Ground Zero" or the one in his head.

I'm in tears listening to the Cooper/Gohmert interview. Gohmert makes Sharron Angle look stable.

21 ArchangelMichael  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:23:30am

re: #11 Ojoe

I would like to skip the next 200 years at least.

You are more likely to come back to Barter Town than the United Federation of Planets if you do though, based on how things are going. Make sure you bring a lot of bottle caps with you.

22 Max  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:24:12am
Disney's 1993 proposal to build an American history theme park near Manassas Battlefield was defeated by a broad coalition that feared vulgarization of the Civil War (and that was wiser than me; at the time I obtusely saw little harm in the venture). It's why the commercial viewing tower built right on the border of Gettysburg was taken down by the Park Service.

Krauthammer fails to recognize that there is no right to build theme parks or commercial viewing towers in the US Constitution.

However it does guarentee the right to build a house of worship (no matter where it is.)

23 Kragar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:24:27am

re: #21 ArchangelMichael

You are more likely to come back to Barter Town than the United Federation of Planets if you do though, based on how things are going. Make sure you bring a lot of bottle caps with you.

or Waterworld.

24 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:24:30am

What the fuck is it about Ground Zero that makes otherwise sane, level-headed persons sell out their principles and their ideals? Like I said downstairs, if their were a proposal to build a mega-church on the exact same spot as the Cordoba House, you'd read glowing articles about how the construction would bring "much-needed" jobs and tax revenues to NYC.

25 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:24:40am

I like Krauthammer sometimes. I'm really not a fan of the commentator genre but he has written well in the past. Not this time. I feel like getting one of those banner planes top fly by his house for a day or two.
The banner would read like this-ITS NOT AT GROUND ZERO

I'd love to ask him if the ground is too sacred to have a coat factory again. I'd like to show him the Google street maps of various things a couple blocks away from truly sacred ground.

26 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:24:46am

re: #19 rwmofo

Overall Krauthammer is much more reasonable and far less divisive than the President (whose approval rating just fell below the taste of liver-flavored chewing gum).

33% or so?

27 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:24:49am

re: #18 blueraven

I am afraid this is an episode in a centuries long conflict that is far, far from over.

28 Tigger2005  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:25:03am

If the rational people just stand up and talk sense, eventually it will get through to the irrational people...

No, it won't. You can't argue logically against a position that wasn't reached logically.

Irrational people, if they have a shred of conscience in them, usually only calm down and realize their idiocy after they do something really, really stupid.

29 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:25:20am

re: #15 captdiggs

Yeah, I'm starting to think there's enough opposition to the project that they might succeed in blocking it somehow.

30 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:25:57am

I wonder if anyone is aware that there is a Japanese Cultural Center near Pearl Harbor.

31 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:26:38am

re: #26 Cannadian Club Akbar

33% or so?

My bad.
[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

32 mikefromArlington  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:26:49am

Doesn't it all come down to $$$ in the end?

33 captdiggs  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:26:52am

re: #22 Max D. Reinhardt

However it does guarentee the right to build a house of worship (no matter where it is.)

That's not quite accurate.
Zoning laws can and do preclude such construction in areas that are inappropriate.
For example, you can't buy a home in my neighborhood and then convert it into a church or any religious house of worship because that is not a residential usage.

34 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:27:06am

re: #22 Max D. Reinhardt

Krauthammer fails to recognize that there is no right to build theme parks or commercial viewing towers in the US Constitution.

However it does guarentee the right to build a house of worship (no matter where it is.)

You are not guaranteed a right to build a church just anywhere at all, AFAIK, but these folks got approved by their local zoning committee.

35 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:27:15am

re: #30 Alouette

I wonder if anyone is aware that there is a Japanese Cultural Center near Pearl Harbor.

There's also a Pancho Villa State Park right where he invaded the US and killed 16 US citizens.

36 HappyWarrior  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:27:17am

re: #30 Alouette

I wonder if anyone is aware that there is a Japanese Cultural Center near Pearl Harbor.

Didn't know that.

37 Gus  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:27:47am

re: #34 SanFranciscoZionist

You are not guaranteed a right to build a church just anywhere at all, AFAIK, but these folks got approved by their local zoning committee.

And current zoning allows for Park51/Cordoba House.

38 Mocking Jay  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:27:59am

Umm... let's be fair to Koch, shall we?

In a phone interview this afternoon, Koch said: "From the very inception of this controversy, I have said that every religious institution is to be treated equally. And if a church or a synagogue could be situated on that plot of land, then a mosque can as well. I understand the anger of the survivors and the relatives of those who died, but there is a United States Constitution, which guarantees equality for all religions." Koch cited the historical intolerance against Catholics and Jews in the United States.

"There is no room for discussion" on the legal question, Koch told me. "It's insensitive for those who have suffered loss and object, but the people who want to build the mosque have that right and nobody should stand in the way legally--stand in the way seeking to stop them legally."

39 Big Steve  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:28:07am

I think that all church or religious buildings are given a free pass as to where they build and what they look like. Near me a few years ago a Baptist church bought a beautiful woods, tore down every tree, and but up a big box church and acres of parking lot. It is the most insulting architecture I have ever seen. To this day they have not even planted a tree or shrub anywhere. So before one complains about this mosque take a look at some of the newer Christian buildings as well.

40 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:28:17am

re: #30 Alouette

I wonder if anyone is aware that there is a Japanese Cultural Center near Pearl Harbor.

THANK you. i knew there was a good parallel out there somewhere but i couldn't get it off of the tip of my tongue. nice job-

41 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:28:27am

re: #22 Max D. Reinhardt

Not quite. Zoning resolutions are facially neutral laws that apply to houses of worship just as they apply to any other proposed building. For example, an orthodox synagogue whose members do not drive on the Sabbath or religious holidays, must nevertheless either provide the number of parking spaces required for places of assembly or seek a variance in order to provide fewer parking spaces. Many congregations have to litigate in order to expand their building to accommodate growing membership.

42 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:28:48am

re: #30 Alouette

I wonder if anyone is aware that there is a Japanese Cultural Center near Pearl Harbor.

Very pretty, too.

43 Kragar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:29:14am

re: #30 Alouette

I wonder if anyone is aware that there is a Japanese Cultural Center near Pearl Harbor.

CREEPING SHINTOISM!

44 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:29:29am

OT, but relevant:

AP: US Muslims prep for Islamic holiday — around 9/11

NEW YORK – The lunar calendar that Muslims follow for religious holidays is creating a potential for misunderstandings or worse in a year when American Muslims are already confronting a spike in assaults on their faith and protests against new mosques.

Eid al-Fitr, a joyous holiday marking the end of the holy month of Ramadan, this year falls around Sept. 11. Muslim leaders fear that their gatherings for prayer and festivities could be misinterpreted by those unfamiliar with Islam as a celebration of the 2001 terrorist strikes.

The Muslim Public Affairs Council, an advocacy group based in Los Angeles, is contacting law enforcement and the Justice Department civil rights division to alert them to the overlap.

45 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:30:15am

re: #33 captdiggs


Also not necessarily accurate. Many local zoning ordinances allow the conversion of a building in a residential district to religious use, provided that the parking and other requirements can be met.

46 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:30:29am

re: #39 Big Steve

I think that all church or religious buildings are given a free pass as to where they build and what they look like. Near me a few years ago a Baptist church bought a beautiful woods, tore down every tree, and but up a big box church and acres of parking lot. It is the most insulting architecture I have ever seen. To this day they have not even planted a tree or shrub anywhere. So before one complains about this mosque take a look at some of the newer Christian buildings as well.

Work on your local zoning laws and development regulations.

47 tnguitarist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:30:44am

re: #38 JasonA

Umm... let's be fair to Koch, shall we?

Why be fair when you can selectively quote?

48 captdiggs  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:30:56am

re: #30 Alouette

Actually, that Buddhist temple is on the other side of the Island from Pearl Harbor

49 Big Steve  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:30:59am

re: #22 Max D. Reinhardt

However it does guarentee the right to build a house of worship (no matter where it is.)

Where does the constitution say that? It just says that Congress shall pass no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion but it does not say they have a right to build buildings anywhere they want.

50 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:31:17am

re: #44 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

OT, but relevant:

AP: US Muslims prep for Islamic holiday — around 9/11

Damn calendars.

51 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:31:44am

re: #36 HappyWarrior

Didn't know that.

It's not that close to Pearl...

52 Kragar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:32:19am

re: #48 captdiggs

Actually, that Buddhist temple is on the other side of the Island from Pearl Harbor

ITS ON THE SAME ISLAND!!!

53 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:32:45am

re: #48 captdiggs

Actually, that Buddhist temple is on the other side of the Island from Pearl Harbor

still...it does raise the point about how far is "far enough", a question which the objectors never seem to want to answer.

54 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:33:28am

re: #39 Big Steve

"Religious art is the measure of human depth and sincerity; any triviality, any weakness, cries aloud."

— Henry Adams.

BBL

55 Big Steve  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:34:34am

re: #46 wrenchwench

Work on your local zoning laws and development regulations.

I was on the city council at the time and we did end up fining them for cutting down trees without a permit.

56 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:35:15am

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Just posting this with no opinion.

57 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:35:23am

re: #33 captdiggs

That's not quite accurate.
Zoning laws can and do preclude such construction in areas that are inappropriate.
For example, you can't buy a home in my neighborhood and then convert it into a church or any religious house of worship because that is not a residential usage.

Although there is a house in my old neighborhood that has been converted into a Russian Orthodox Church. So, basically, you've got an old single-family that has been modified with small onion domes and Orthdox-style crosses, and a painting over the door.

One of my friends was deeply startled by it. She thought it was someone's house, that they had decorated to express their...intense...faith.

58 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:36:54am
59 blueraven  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:37:29am

re: #53 Aceofwhat?

still...it does raise the point about how far is "far enough", a question which the objectors never seem to want to answer.

And that is the problem; what about the protests over mosques in California and Tennessee? It is a religious thing...war on mosques heating up.

60 Gus  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:37:44am

"The true foundation of republican government is the equal right of every citizen in his person and property and in their management." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816

61 Mocking Jay  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:38:12am

One of the best signs ever: [Link: i.huffpost.com...]

62 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:38:16am

I've added some more to my article above, if anyone's interested. This is a REALLY bad piece by Krauthammer.

63 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:38:27am

re: #59 blueraven

We are watching a religious war, let's not kid ourselves.

BBL

64 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:38:45am

re: #58 Killgore Trout

Animal pictures of the week

Awwwww.

Hansani is growing up to be a cutie!!

65 Varek Raith  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:41:09am

re: #8 Aceofwhat?

Yeah...the jokes about Republicans being the "dark side"...ermm...not meant to be literal, CK et al.

Whoa, there.
Don't lump the crazies in with the likes of me!
Otherwise, I'll zap you with the Force!
Wait...

66 Cineaste  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:41:52am

It's as if the intelligentia on the right have finally given up on refuting the left's assertions that the right is intolerant and are just admitting it.

67 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:42:26am

Q: "Krauthammer can’t possibly be ignorant of these facts. So why is he still repeating the falsehoods?"

A: Because he has decided to hop on the band wagon and get some free adulation from bigoted and anti-American rubes.

The first Amendment was establish precisely to prevent this sort of bigotry from poisoning the government. It was not only the correct and moral view for its own merits, it had the practical view of saving America from the religious wars that engulfed Europe. Those are noble reasons to understand why this is a valuable freedom to be defended dearly..

A selfish reason is to ask:

How many times in Jewish history has a synagogue had issues?

There is no moral question here. Only moral disintegration.

Krauthammer can’t possibly be ignorant of these facts either. Yet, he goes on the merry ride.

68 Varek Raith  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:42:38am

re: #61 JasonA

One of the best signs ever: [Link: i.huffpost.com...]

Needs a "No Shit" sign near it.

69 webevintage  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:42:48am
“Who is to say that one day”

That one we might find out that floride in the water does induce mind control.
That cats actually are our evil (but cute) overlords.
That Obama IS a sekrit mooslim commie.
That tinfoil hats do work.
That Tupac is alive.

You know...I'm just asking....
/

70 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:43:03am

re: #16 Cannadian Club Akbar

And stuffed jalapenos.

And PINEAPPLE with Canadian bacon on PIZZA!

71 Mocking Jay  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:43:12am
America is a free country where you can build whatever you want — but not anywhere. That’s why we have zoning laws. No liquor store near a school, no strip malls where they offend local sensibilities, and, if your house doesn’t meet community architectural codes, you cannot build at all.

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and guess that they checked up on the whole zoning issue before this thing ever got off the ground.

72 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:43:51am

re: #55 Big Steve

I was on the city council at the time and we did end up fining them for cutting down trees without a permit.

Good for you! Maybe they can be embarrassed into planting some replacements.

73 tnguitarist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:43:55am

re: #61 JasonA

One of the best signs ever: [Link: i.huffpost.com...]

It should say "for dayz" at the bottom...

74 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:44:06am

re: #66 Cineaste

It's as if the intelligentia on the right have finally given up on refuting the left's assertions that the right is intolerant and are just admitting it.

I sincerely ask you don't lump us all together. That would be like me saying all on the left want to let illegals allowed to vote just for votes.

75 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:44:36am

re: #62 Charles

I've added some more to my article above, if anyone's interested. This is a REALLY bad piece by Krauthammer.

The right has simply collapsed into madness. If even Krauthammer has gone this batty, there really isn't anything left.

76 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:44:53am

re: #70 eclectic infidel

And PINEAPPLE with Canadian bacon on PIZZA!

NO PINEAPPLE!!!

77 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:45:09am

re: #69 webevintage

That one we might find out that floride in the water does induce mind control.
That cats actually are our evil (but cute) overlords.
That Obama IS a sekrit mooslim commie.
That tinfoil hats do work.
That Tupac is alive.

You know...I'm just asking...
/

That fluoridation scare of the 50's, perpetrated by the right was wacko. And the vaccine scares too. Thanks goodness most of the right gave up on vaccine scares, and the mantle was taken up by the left.

78 Mocking Jay  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:45:11am

re: #74 Cannadian Club Akbar

I sincerely ask you don't lump us all together. That would be like me saying all on the left want to let illegals allowed to vote just for votes.

He wasn't talking about you. He said "intelligentia."

/

79 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:45:47am

re: #24 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Sadly, this is probably true. On the other hand, since Christian fundamentalists did not crash airplanes into the Twin Towers, there is also an objective reason why rational people (as opposed to the wingnuts and demagogues) might not be as offended by a mega-church in relative proximity to the site.

80 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:45:51am

re: #75 LudwigVanQuixote

The right has simply collapsed into madness. If even Krauthammer has gone this batty, there really isn't anything left.

And now we have nothing.

81 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:46:09am

re: #59 blueraven

And that is the problem; what about the protests over mosques in California and Tennessee? It is a religious thing...war on mosques heating up.

Which is why i was glad to see the NCOC step up against this crap...they represent a lot of mainstream Christians.

82 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:46:29am

re: #66 Cineaste

It's as if the intelligentsia on the right have finally given up on refuting the left's assertions that the right is intolerant and are just admitting it.

The what?

83 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:46:43am

re: #78 JasonA

He wasn't talking about you. He said "intelligentia."

/

Good point. That took me a minute to respond.
/

84 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:46:49am

re: #62 Charles

I've added some more to my article above, if anyone's interested. This is a REALLY bad piece by Krauthammer.

I swear the pundits have been dashing off absolute tripe this summer, as though nobody is really going to read it anyway.

I'm almost embarrassed for the lizards who are still pushing VDH in the Pages.

85 Varek Raith  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:47:29am

re: #84 wrenchwench

I swear the pundits have been dashing off absolute tripe this summer, as though nobody is really going to read it anyway.

I'm almost embarrassed for the lizards who are still pushing VDH in the Pages.

Speaking of VDH, holy shit, did he get kooky or what?!

86 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:48:44am

re: #85 Varek Raith

Speaking of VDH, holy shit, did he get kooky or what?!

Kooky doesn't quite cover it... how about "batshit insane with a side of crazy"?

87 reidr  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:49:53am

re: #43 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

CREEPING SHINTOISM!

Sheeping Crintoism? What?

/

88 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:50:32am

re: #85 Varek Raith

Speaking of VDH, holy shit, did he get kooky or what?!

re: #86 MrSilverDragon

Kooky doesn't quite cover it... how about "batshit insane with a side of crazy"?

He's been drifting that way for a while, but I think being a special guest on those right wing cruise ships really went to his head, and he decided to pander to them full time.

89 Varek Raith  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:50:55am

re: #87 reidr

Sheeping Crintoism? What?

/

He's just mad that Amaterasu won't give him the light of day.

90 Kragar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:51:02am

re: #70 eclectic infidel

And PINEAPPLE with Canadian bacon on PIZZA!

You son of a bitch

91 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:51:04am

re: #80 Walter L. Newton

I know you are skeptical of it Walter, but we do have the Modern Whig Party.

92 blueraven  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:51:41am

re: #63 Ojoe

We are watching a religious war, let's not kid ourselves.

BBL

I think George W Bush tried to prevent this kind of right wing religious fervor. Now that the republicans have no leadership, it seems the inmates have taken over the asylum.

93 Cineaste  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:51:45am

re: #74 Cannadian Club Akbar

I sincerely ask you don't lump us all together. That would be like me saying all on the left want to let illegals allowed to vote just for votes.

Fair enough, I will modify it to say "a majority of the right is intolerant"

94 Kragar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:52:47am

re: #93 Cineaste

Fair enough, I will modify it to say "a majority of the right is intolerant"

And by intolerant, I mean batshit insane

95 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:52:58am

re: #75 LudwigVanQuixote

The right has simply collapsed into madness. If even Krauthammer has gone this batty, there really isn't anything left.

what about me?

//

96 Cineaste  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:53:24am

re: #63 Ojoe

We are watching a religious war, let's not kid ourselves.

BBL

That's what's sad about Krauthammer on this one. He's Jewish. It's one of the reasons why he hasn't bought into the young-earth craziness.

97 recusancy  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:53:46am

re: #19 rwmofo

Overall Krauthammer is much more reasonable and far less divisive than the President (whose approval rating just fell below the taste of liver-flavored chewing gum).

Here's a little tu quo que for ya: [Link: abcnews.go.com...]

98 webevintage  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:54:05am

OT, just wanted to "Thank you" everyone.
Fang feels much better now and has stopped itching.
But she does smell like a salad at the moment.

99 lawhawk  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:54:28am

I could have sworn that there were reports this morning that the CI group was actually contemplating backing out of its plan to build at 45-51 Park Place. In fact, SoHo Properties is contemplating alternatives.

Albany - Sponsors of the proposed mosque near Ground Zero are not slamming the door on Gov. Paterson's idea to build the center someplace else.

"We are open to a conversation to find out more on what the governor has in mind," the center, Park51, said in a Twitter post yesterday.

While mosque opponents charge the chosen site is insensitive to 9/11 victims, Paterson doesn't oppose the planned location.

He suggested earlier this week it might ease tensions if the center was further away from Ground Zero, and raised the possibility of offering state-owned land.

"I would hope that whatever spirituality exists would compel the developers to sit down and have this conversation," Paterson said on WOR's "The John Gambling Show" yesterday.

Mosque developer Sharif El-Gamal has said the group is interested in hearing from Paterson but added that "this has always been about serving lower Manhattan."

Can you say hollow victory where bogus stories and incomplete/error-filled reporting trumps this group's constitutional rights to build the center there?

Where exactly are they going to find a similar sized property with similar zoning in Lower Manhattan, which is the community that the group wants to serve with the community center and prayer space and mosque?

100 Kragar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:54:30am

re: #98 webevintage

OT, just wanted to "Thank you" everyone.
Fang feels much better now and has stopped itching.
But she does smell like a salad at the moment.

What kind of salad?

101 Gus  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:54:37am

re: #97 recusancy

Here's a little tu quo que for ya: [Link: abcnews.go.com...]

Lies! /

Image: abc_obama_reagan_100716_main.jpg

102 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:54:59am

re: #91 Ojoe

I know you are skeptical of it Walter, but we do have the Modern Whig Party.

I'll try to be polite about the Modern Whig Party... stuff it.

103 Mocking Jay  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:55:25am

re: #95 Aceofwhat?

what about me?

//

The Overton Window has shifted so much lately that you are now a Leftist Commie Tranzi Prog like the rest of us. Welcome! Send me a blank check and I'll see to it that your Soros money is direct deposited into your account.

/

104 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:55:29am

IT'S SO DRY IN OKLAHOMA That the Baptists are starting to baptize by sprinkling,

The Methodists are using wet-wipes,

Presbyterians are giving rain checks,

And the Catholics are praying for the wine to turn
back into water!

105 lawhawk  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:55:55am

re: #75 LudwigVanQuixote

Not everyone has drunk the kool aid.

[Link: lawhawk.blogspot.com...]

106 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:56:18am

re: #101 Gus 802

Lies! /

Image: abc_obama_reagan_100716_main.jpg

Remember, Reagan came after Carter.
/

107 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:56:19am

re: #79 sliv_the_eli

Sadly, this is probably true. On the other hand, since Christian fundamentalists did not crash airplanes into the Twin Towers, there is also an objective reason why rational people (as opposed to the wingnuts and demagogues) might not be as offended by a mega-church in relative proximity to the site.

If, instead of Cordoba House a mega-church were being constructed on the site, might biggest gripe would be like Ed Koch's: I consider it "insensitive." But that's mostly because I'm a deist and have a rather strong aversion to organized religion in general, evangelists in particular.

108 teleskiguy  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:56:47am

The right wing's thought on this community center is permeating, even friends of mine who I consider rational are saying the community center shouldn't be built. Sad indeed when fear and hatred triumph over logic and reason.

109 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:56:50am

re: #97 recusancy

Here's a little tu quo que for ya: [Link: abcnews.go.com...]

Doesn't help worth a shit, does it. President Obama is a sitting president, Reagan is dead. Reagan's approval rating doesn't mean squat right now. I'm more concerned with the living.

110 tnguitarist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:57:38am

re: #105 lawhawk

Not everyone has drunk the kool aid.

[Link: lawhawk.blogspot.com...]

True.

111 Mocking Jay  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:58:20am

A part of me would like to see them move the mosque a few blocks away, just to see exactly how far this "sacred ground" extends...

112 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:58:20am

re: #28 Tigger2005

Agreed. And you can tell the difference between the rational and the irrational people on the subject as follows:

1. A person is rational if, regardless of whether he/she supports or opposes the construction of an Islamic center in relative proximity to the WTC, he/she accepts that the owners of the property have an absolute right to build such a center and that it is only proper to debate whether building such a center is nevertheless the right thing to do in light of historical events.

2. A person is irrational if he opposes the construction of an Islamic center in relative proximity to the WTC because of antipathy towards all Muslims (or, alternatively, toward the notion that the United States is or should be anything other than a white Chrisitian nation) or solely for political gain. Likewise a person is irrational if he supports the construction of the Cordoba House project (or even only the right to build the project) and automatically believes any person falling in category 1, above, to be a bigot.

113 recusancy  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:59:00am

re: #109 Walter L. Newton

Doesn't help worth a shit, does it. President Obama is a sitting president, Reagan is dead. Reagan's approval rating doesn't mean squat right now. I'm more concerned with the living.

Why are you concerned at all about approval ratings?

114 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:59:09am

bbiab

115 Gus  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:59:29am

re: #109 Walter L. Newton

Doesn't help worth a shit, does it. President Obama is a sitting president, Reagan is dead. Reagan's approval rating doesn't mean squat right now. I'm more concerned with the living.

True. There is some good news in that the "German economy sees 'record' growth of 2.2%."

116 Kragar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:59:42am

Prop. 8 proponents file emergency appeal to block gay marriage

"The district court simply ignored virtually everything -- judicial authority, the works of eminent scholars past and present in all relevant academic fields, extensive documentary and historical evidence, and even common sense -- opposed to its conclusions," the ProtectMarriage lawyers wrote.

117 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:00:03pm

re: #112 sliv_the_eli

Agreed. And you can tell the difference between the rational and the irrational people on the subject as follows:

1. A person is rational if, regardless of whether he/she supports or opposes the construction of an Islamic center in relative proximity to the WTC, he/she accepts that the owners of the property have an absolute right to build such a center and that it is only proper to debate whether building such a center is nevertheless the right thing to do in light of historical events.

2. A person is irrational if he opposes the construction of an Islamic center in relative proximity to the WTC because of antipathy towards all Muslims (or, alternatively, toward the notion that the United States is or should be anything other than a white Chrisitian nation) or solely for political gain. Likewise a person is irrational if he supports the construction of the Cordoba House project (or even only the right to build the project) and automatically believes any person falling in category 1, above, to be a bigot.

No... if she/she does not support support the building of the mosque, he/she is irrational, no matter what.

118 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:01:09pm

re: #103 JasonA

The Overton Window has shifted so much lately that you are now a Leftist Commie Tranzi Prog like the rest of us. Welcome! Send me a blank check and I'll see to it that your Soros money is direct deposited into your account.

/

Huh. Well, we sure showed those capitalist pigs, eh komrades!?! Huzzah!

(although i'm not drinking vodka...talk about your all-time bad commie ideas...spirits should have taste, dammit!)

119 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:01:12pm

BBIAB... got to get ready for work.

120 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:01:49pm

re: #62 Charles

For the first time in a while, I wholeheartedly agree. If Krauthammer's point is that he believes it is an insensitively conceived project and that it might be better to consider Governor Patterson's proposal to help find an alternative site that would be less controversial and, therefore, more conducive to healing divisions, the article's pseudo-legalisitic arguments are inappropriate, as they suggest that Krauthammer believes it would be proper to legally block the project. If he is suggesting the latter, I would join in your disappointment, since he is usually a relatively sane voice on the right.

121 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:01:54pm

re: #105 lawhawk

Not everyone has drunk the kool aid.

[Link: lawhawk.blogspot.com...]

Lawhawk..How many thousands of offices will sit surrounding ground zero?

122 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:02:09pm

re: #111 JasonA

A part of me would like to see them move the mosque a few blocks away, just to see exactly how far this "sacred ground" extends...

There's bigots across the country opposing the construction of mosques as far away from Ground Zero as California. This isn't about how "sacred" the site is, it's about blind hatred of all Muslims.

123 Mocking Jay  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:02:51pm

re: #122 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

There's bigots across the country opposing the construction of mosques as far away from Ground Zero as California. This isn't about how "sacred" the site is, it's about blind hatred of all Muslims.

I know that, silly. I just want to watch as the opponents move the goalposts in real time.

124 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:05:15pm
Navy imam Chaplain Abuhena M. Saifulislam lifted his voice to God as he called to prayer more than 100 Department of Defense employees Monday at a celebration of Ramadan at the Pentagon.

God is most great, sang the lieutenant commander and Islamic leader, in Arabic, as iftar — the end of the daily fast began.

Uniformed military personnel, civilians and family members faced Mecca and knelt on adorned prayer rugs chanting their prayers in quiet invocation to Allah.

(Above quote from story in 2007)

Mosque in the Pentagon, never a peep.

[Link: www.salon.com...]

125 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:07:08pm

re: #53 Aceofwhat?

In truth, even those who rationally oppose the project probably cannot answer that question. Like much that has to do with tragedies of the scale of 9/11, the issue is an emotional one that is generally only resolved through open dialogue. For example, 1/2 a mile away might be too close to some if the project is sited without any dialogue, but several blocks away might be exactly right if the choice of site is the result of an open dialogue. And anyone who claims to have exclusive rights to knowing what is the right thing to do is engaging in demagoguery.

126 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:07:46pm

re: #123 JasonA

I know that, silly. I just want to watch as the opponents move the goalposts in real time.

Shit, you can do that now. Back when news first broke out, it was about it being "close to Ground Zero." Now, listening to them, you'd swear that Cordoba House was gonna be built on Ground Zero.

And I'll admit now that I did, at one time, oppose the construction of Cordoba House. But this was before I'd returned to LGF, and received everything I knew about it through a right-wing filter. I actually believed some of the BS about how it was going to be one huge mosque, about how it was gonna be within spitting distance of Ground Zero, about how it was being funded through "terrorist" groups/supporters, and that it'd be the place for those believing in Islamic jihad against America to congregate and marvel at what 19 "martyrs" had accomplished.

I now know all of that to be bullshit and have a really hard time believing that men like Krauthammer don't.

127 Kragar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:08:18pm

Greene indicted on pornography charge

South Carolina Democratic U.S. Senate nominee Alvin Greene has been indicted for "disseminating, procuring or promoting obscenity," according to the Richland County clerk of courts.

128 webevintage  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:08:54pm

re: #100 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

What kind of salad?

One with a vinaigrette dressing....

129 Ming  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:10:00pm

Things have gotten crazy. We're spending hundreds of billions of dollars to bring democracy to Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan. At the same time, apparently half (perhaps more) of Americans believe that Muslims are so hopeless that a mosque two blocks away from Ground Zero would be offensive. How can anyone be opposed to the Cordoba Mosque, while supporting our expensive nation-building in Muslim countries overseas?

130 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:10:02pm

re: #124 Stanley Sea

(Above quote from story in 2007)

Mosque in the Pentagon, never a peep.

[Link: www.salon.com...]

But if only moderate Muslims would do something to show they rejected terror. Like joining an army that's fighting a war on terror.

/no snark, just some gentle sadness

131 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:10:18pm

re: #127 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Greene indicted on pornography charge

He's the candidate planted by the Republicans, right!?!?

(no,,, I don't have a link, but yes,, I have seen it mentioned by the monnbats)

132 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:11:04pm

re: #131 sattv4u2

He's the candidate planted by the Republicans, right!?!?

(no,,, I don't have a link, but yes,, I have seen it mentioned by the monnbats)

He's the candidate that no one expected, much like the Spanish Inquisition.

133 lawhawk  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:11:22pm

re: #121 HoosierHoops

I believe it's somewhere in the range of 6-8 million square feet in Ground Zero (1WTC, Freedom Tower 7WTC and depending on whether 2 and 3 WTC are built as planned. The original WTC complex had 10 million sf of space.

I'd say that with a 1 block radius you're looking at another couple million sf of space (World Financial Center, Goldman Sachs, etc.). I don't have an exact figure handy.

134 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:11:45pm

re: #127 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Greene indicted on pornography charge

A politician in Training

135 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:12:38pm

re: #132 SanFranciscoZionist

He's the candidate that no one expected, much like the Spanish Inquisition.

Is that you, Mel Brooks!?

136 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:12:58pm

Well, I just exposed myself on a mailing list as a defender of the construction of this community center. Fortunately there's less than 15 of us on the list, and only 1 person is pushing the envelope with respect to the "ground zero mosque."

137 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:14:07pm

re: #131 sattv4u2

He's the candidate planted by the Republicans, right!?!?

(no,,, I don't have a link, but yes,, I have seen it mentioned by the monnbats)

It's all so Machiavellian, isn't it? Then again, to most conspiracy nuts, everything is.

/ (sarc tag at 50% and holding)

138 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:14:08pm

re: #127 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

re: #131 sattv4u2

He's the candidate planted by the Republicans, right!?!?

(no,,, I don't have a link, but yes,, I have seen it mentioned by the monnbats)

heh ,, actually,, there's a few!!

139 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:14:10pm

re: #92 blueraven

Speaking as a lifelong centrist Democrat, the Republicans are doing a phenomenal job of trying to pull defeat from the jaws of victory in 2010, by nominating people so extreme that moderates and independents will vote for the left wing again only because they are less crazy than the loons being nominated by the Repubs.

140 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:14:11pm

re: #125 sliv_the_eli

In truth, even those who rationally oppose the project probably cannot answer that question. Like much that has to do with tragedies of the scale of 9/11, the issue is an emotional one that is generally only resolved through open dialogue. For example, 1/2 a mile away might be too close to some if the project is sited without any dialogue, but several blocks away might be exactly right if the choice of site is the result of an open dialogue. And anyone who claims to have exclusive rights to knowing what is the right thing to do is engaging in demagoguery.

i quite agree; it's sad that so many are blind to the fact that an inability to answer that question, how far away is 'far enough', is a sign that the objections are emotional rather than rational.

141 jayzee  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:14:16pm

re: #108 teleskiguy

The right wing's thought on this community center is permeating, even friends of mine who I consider rational are saying the community center shouldn't be built. Sad indeed when fear and hatred triumph over logic and reason.

On a local level it's not just the right. I have a lot of very "liberal" NY friends who joined that "stop the mosque" thing on FB. It's appalling.

142 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:14:26pm

re: #127 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

re: #138 sattv4u2

re: #131 sattv4u2


heh ,, actually,, there's a few!!

[Link: www.google.com...]

143 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:14:42pm

re: #133 lawhawk

I believe it's somewhere in the range of 6-8 million square feet in Ground Zero (1WTC, Freedom Tower 7WTC and depending on whether 2 and 3 WTC are built as planned. The original WTC complex had 10 million sf of space.

I'd say that with a 1 block radius you're looking at another couple million sf of space (World Financial Center, Goldman Sachs, etc.). I don't have an exact figure handy.

Thanks Lawhawk...So I guess it's not hollowed ground when commercial office space sits there

144 Nimed  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:15:48pm

Krauthammer's article reads as a compilation of bad arguments.

ALL THE ERRORS OF FACT AND JUDGMENT ROLLED UP INTO ONE COLUMN....

That's exactly what Krauthammer's column is. We see no new argument, no attempt to address the points of those against the prohibition of the Cultural Center (1st Amendment rights, Muslims that died at Ground Zero, the strip clubs that are "at" Ground Zero by this very broad definition of "at").

145 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:16:24pm

re: #99 lawhawk

I am not sure there is much of a community to be served in that neck of the woods by a community center of any persuasion. Although there has been some residential development in that area of Manhattan, it remains largely a commercial/office center.

146 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:16:39pm

re: #130 SanFranciscoZionist

But if only moderate Muslims would do something to show they rejected terror. Like joining an army that's fighting a war on terror.

/no snark, just some gentle sadness

OTOH, i am in the mood for happy discussions today, so at least i won't be weighing you down further;)

147 darthstar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:17:50pm

re: #127 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Greene indicted on pornography charge

On the upside, at least he's computer literate. And really, he was hitting on some gal by showing her an offensive picture he accessed through the school library computers?

Greene, according to a report from university police, "told her to look at his computer screen."


And that constitutes "disseminating, procuring or promoting obscenity"?

From the headline, you'd think he had a trunk full of VHS tapes from the 80s.

148 webevintage  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:18:33pm

re: #145 sliv_the_eli

I am not sure there is much of a community to be served in that neck of the woods by a community center of any persuasion. Although there has been some residential development in that area of Manhattan, it remains largely a commercial/office center.

Really?
So no one lives close enough or works close enough that they would use it during the day or when they get off work?

149 Kragar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:19:28pm

re: #147 darthstar

From the headline, you'd think he had a trunk full of VHS tapes from the 80s.

Hanging out at the dirtmall, calling out, "Hey Buddy! Buddy Buddy Buddy!"

150 sagehen  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:22:09pm

re: #145 sliv_the_eli

I am not sure there is much of a community to be served in that neck of the woods by a community center of any persuasion. Although there has been some residential development in that area of Manhattan, it remains largely a commercial/office center.

A lot of food carts are operated by Senegalese, the Battery Park City apartments has thousands of units (occupied by a high percentage of foreigners who've come here to work in finance), there's a lot of Arab cab drivers, there's a bunch of hotels in the area... and I feel certain the million or so people who work within walking distance includes at least enough observant Muslims to fill a 1000-person prayer space when they get off the commuter trains before going to work, and at lunchtime, and before they board the commuter trains to go home.

151 MJ  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:22:13pm

re: #99 lawhawk

I could have sworn that there were reports this morning that the CI group was actually contemplating backing out of its plan to build at 45-51 Park Place. In fact, SoHo Properties is contemplating alternatives.

Can you say hollow victory where bogus stories and incomplete/error-filled reporting trumps this group's constitutional rights to build the center there?

Where exactly are they going to find a similar sized property with similar zoning in Lower Manhattan, which is the community that the group wants to serve with the community center and prayer space and mosque?

David Frum had his doubts that the mosque was going to be built several days ago:

Is the 9/11 Mosque a Publicity Stunt?

The lower Manhattan mosque has provoked many doubts and suspicions. Here’s mine: the whole thing is a phony-baloney publicity stunt by a developer in search of project financing...

[Link: www.frumforum.com...]

If Frum is right, one way to view uproar- some real, much of it manufactured- over the proposed Mosque is to make it such a hot potato issue that no entity would want to get involved with it- be it individuals or governments.

152 webevintage  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:22:19pm

Last nights Daily Show on Tuesday's primaries "the only thing we know is that the people who got the most votes won their primaries"

and the BS being spewed by the people who LOVE the Constitution but would like to change it:

153 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:22:58pm

re: #140 Aceofwhat?

i quite agree; it's sad that so many are blind to the fact that an inability to answer that question, how far away is 'far enough', is a sign that the objections are emotional rather than rational.

It's an entirely emotional issue. And emotionally, I have all kinds of issues.

But from a standpoint of Appropriate American Behavior, how I feel is not what guides me.

154 Randall Gross  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:23:12pm

Krauthammer's right there with the Operation Rescue bigots, who are right there with the Dove World Outreach bigots, who are right there with Spencer/Geller/et al as well as Westboro Baptist Church. Yeah that's right: to be a true conservative nowadays you have to side with the Phelps clan and co.

A little too six degrees of Kevin Bacon for you? Not at all. The crazies have conquered the asylum, and they are holding the staff hostage.

155 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:23:15pm

re: #141 jayzee

On a local level it's not just the right. I have a lot of very "liberal" NY friends who joined that "stop the mosque" thing on FB. It's appalling.

Are they Manhattanites?

156 _remembertonyc  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:24:07pm

As I have posted at least five times, the fear that this mosque/community center will be a fortress of terrorism is not credible at all. Considering how much heat this project has generated, there will be constant attention on the comings and goings of the visitors to the center. And while I'm sure some will be outraged by this bit of news, you can count on the fact that the FBI will pay close attention to everything associated with this project. Its construction and presence does not worry me at all. And at this point, I hope the organizers do NOT move the project to another location because if they do, it will be used as "proof" that New Yorkers "persecuted" followers of islam and hounded them from their chosen spot for the center. And while some Americans would see that as some sort of "victory" over extremists, I think it would make all of us look bad. It would be a classic example of winning the battle but losing the war.

157 lawhawk  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:24:32pm

re: #143 HoosierHoops

Well, some of the victims families were quite angry that any office space was going up inside the 16 acres of Ground Zero for precisely that reason. I'm sure some are angry still. More are angry that nothing was built for years - no design at all. Some will probably be upset with the memorial design that is actually nearing completion (and I have my doubts that the fountain/waterfall system will work as advertised).

Personally, I think the whole notion of running the street grid through the site was a horrible mistake because that space would be better put to use as memorial/museum land, rather than a street that will never see vehicular traffic precisely because of its proximity to the towers contemplated for the site (and don't expect Vesey to reopen to vehicular traffic because of the narrowness of the street based on the configuration of the Freedom Tower at West Street).

158 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:25:10pm

re: #117 Walter L. Newton

Please define what you mean by "irrational". If you mean irrational as in guided by emotion, I would agree with your definition. If, on the other hand, by irrational youi mean that it is objectively improper to have any opinion other than that siting the Cordoba House project at its proposed location is the right thing to do and that those who hold a contrary view are necessarily bigots, I would not only disagree with your definition but propose that it is your view which is objectively irrational.

159 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:26:43pm

re: #122 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Not "just", although the discourse has clearly lifted the covers off a wellspring of anti-Muslim bigotry that should concern all persons of good will.

160 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:28:15pm

re: #151 MJ

David Frum had his doubts that the mosque was going to be built several days ago:

Is the 9/11 Mosque a Publicity Stunt?

[Link: www.frumforum.com...]

If Frum is right, one way to view uproar- some real, much of it manufactured- over the proposed Mosque is to make it such a hot potato issue that no entity would want to get involved with it- be it individuals or governments.

Frum is a far right partisan... anything he says must be taken with a grain of salt and a whole lot of Pepto Bismol.

161 lawhawk  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:29:23pm

re: #151 MJ

The project as a stunt to garner financing is an interesting one to say the least - maybe they were counting on a Gutfeld to pony up millions to buy the buildings from them at a profit in a weak market to prevent its construction? In fact, a block away, Silverstein has idled a site that was going to be a major residential project because of financing concerns (credit is still tight, even with Liberty bonds and other incentives for Lower Manhattan).

I just don't think it's a stunt because of the way that Rauf and his associates ran the gauntlet to get approvals to move the project along. You're not going to do that unless you are legitimately trying to get the project built.

If it turns out to have been a stunt, it's one that backfired in a huge way because of the blowback and damage to the Muslim community. At the same time it did expose the bigots and those who are uninterested in protecting and defending the Constitution.

162 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:31:22pm

re: #161 lawhawk

The project as a stunt to garner financing is an interesting one to say the least - maybe they were counting on a Gutfeld to pony up millions to buy the buildings from them at a profit in a weak market to prevent its construction? In fact, a block away, Silverstein has idled a site that was going to be a major residential project because of financing concerns (credit is still tight, even with Liberty bonds and other incentives for Lower Manhattan).

I just don't think it's a stunt because of the way that Rauf and his associates ran the gauntlet to get approvals to move the project along. You're not going to do that unless you are legitimately trying to get the project built.

If it turns out to have been a stunt, it's one that backfired in a huge way because of the blowback and damage to the Muslim community. At the same time it did expose the bigots and those who are uninterested in protecting and defending the Constitution.

People interested in making large sums of money are not interested in the blowback.

163 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:31:43pm

re: #130 SanFranciscoZionist

And yet it also remains sadly true that, by and large, the voice of moderate Muslims remains largely silent or equivocal when it comes to calling out the extermists who claim to act in their name. While there are individuals who act and the occasional moderate voice, moderate Islam has remained largely a "silent majority" which many of us wish would find its collective voice and overtly join in the fight against radical Islamism.

164 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:31:57pm

re: #160 Walter L. Newton

Frum is a far right partisan... anything he says must be taken with a grain of salt and a whole lot of Pepto Bismol.

I see what you did there...

165 researchok  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:32:16pm

Krauthammer is way off base. In this instance he is wrong. He is saying moral sensibilities ought to always trump the legal components. There are times that a moral sensibility ought to prevail over a legal right. He cites Auschwitz and other places to illustrate his point. He cites the wrong cases. Those places were desecrated by governments and secessionists. Ground Zero was desecrated by a few dysfunctional bigots. Yes, there were hundreds of thousand, even millions who applauded them, but so what? Those people were and remain equally dysfunctional, racist and bigoted. They have proved they cannot escape their own failed societies. They will not undermine our democracy. They will only fall further behind.

There is another clear moral component here. In this democracy, abiding by the legal rights of a group to religious expression is the most moral thing to do That is what sets this democracy and 'great experiment' apart from most others.

I understand Krauthammer's point. In a lot of ways I share his his frustrations and sensibilities. Nevertheless in his instance, he is wrong. If the Cordoba House turns out to be a Westboro Baptist Church in disguise, the free market of ideas will render the place irrelevant, a laughing stock to be ignored an ridiculed by the civilized world.

They will have spent a lot of money to be so regarded.

166 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:32:40pm

re: #164 rwdflynavy

I see what you did there...

Good for you.

167 lawhawk  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:33:38pm

re: #145 sliv_the_eli

I am not sure there is much of a community to be served in that neck of the woods by a community center of any persuasion. Although there has been some residential development in that area of Manhattan, it remains largely a commercial/office center.

CB1 (total represented population of more than 30,000) encompasses Battery Park City (with its 10,000 residents) and Lower Manhattan and the Financial District (FiDi). The CB and city officials have been trying to increase 24hour living in Lower Manhattan, and the area does need a community center on par with the JCC or 92nd Street Y. Residential buildings have gone up within 6 blocks of Ground Zero (Gehry's tower, and a tower just south of the former Deutsche Bank building). I'd say that there's critical mass for demand - to say nothing of having a 600-800 seat theater for community gatherings, meetings, etc.

168 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:34:04pm

re: #141 jayzee

People generally have a psychological need to join whatever is popular at the moment. That is the basis of the modern consumerist society.

169 calochortus  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:37:14pm

I keep trying to think of something to say about all this-but in fact it just makes me sad. Demagogues throwing minorities under the bus. People turning on others to deny them the rights they they demand for themselves, as though it was a zero sum game. Its just so unnecessary. All that energy could go to something positive instead.

170 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:37:28pm

re: #152 webevintage

Last nights Daily Show on Tuesday's primaries "the only thing we know is that the people who got the most votes won their primaries"
[Link: www.thedailyshow.com...]

and the BS being spewed by the people who LOVE the Constitution but would like to change it:
[Link: www.thedailyshow.com...]

I like 'the gay monster'.

BTW, for those of you who believe that the fight is merely about calling same-sex partnerships, 'marriage', note what supporting domestic partner benefits did for Karen Handel.

171 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:37:49pm

re: #143 HoosierHoops


Some of us believe that the appropriate way to have shown respect for those who died at the WTC on 9/11 would have been to call upon our national collective will and rebuild the towers (or, as the running joke at the time went, a series of five buildings with the largest in the middle resembling a raised middle finger) as quickly as possible. Instead, we have a single building that is years late and that can no longer be called the "Freedom Tower", because the Chinese interests who helped fund it supposedly objected to that name.

172 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:39:48pm

have i missed anything?

(feeling to lazy to go back and checK)

173 crown_of_feathers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:40:07pm

Hey, I've got a great idea, guys!

Forget about that site a couple of block away.

Why the heck can't we just build a mosque RIGHT ON THE SITE OF THE WTC?! (And it would be nice if it were paid for by NYC).

I can't think of a better testament to our sensitivity than that, can you?

Hey, what the hell, let's show our compassion ("Lockerbie-bomber-release style") by having this gentleman as the resident Imam:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Better yet, let us show that we in America will not be outdone by Europe, in our acceptance of Islam, by installing these fellows also as Imams, and elevating the peace dialog further with the Religion of Peace:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Oh, by the way...do you think that will make them like us more?

174 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:40:50pm

re: #148 webevintage

I didn't say "no one" nor did I suggest nobody would make use of a community center. I was merely commenting on lawhawk's apparent supposition that there is a large community in the area clamoring for such a center. The point itself is admitteldy extraneous to the issue generally being discussed on the thread.

175 webevintage  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:41:02pm

Sully is just a dirty old man:
eoconservative pot-pundit Andrew Sullivan decorated one of his recent posts, titled “Support For Marriage Equality Accelerating?”, with this graph showing that Americans’ support for same-sex marriage has increased since 1988 to more than 50%, while opposition to it has impotenced. But Paul Hipple, editor of the popular Dominionists for Tancredo/Palin 2012 blog, sees something more in Sullivan’s illustration: “the shape of an engorged, fully erect male phallus, possibly of human origin.”

[Link: wonkette.com...]

hahahahahaha

176 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:41:22pm

Oh, good grief. Here we go again.

177 Randall Gross  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:41:36pm

re: #154 Thanos

Krauthammer's right there with the Operation Rescue bigots, who are right there with the Dove World Outreach bigots, who are right there with Spencer/Geller/et al as well as Westboro Baptist Church. Yeah that's right: to be a true conservative nowadays you have to side with the Phelps clan and co.

A little too six degrees of Kevin Bacon for you? Not at all. The crazies have conquered the asylum, and they are holding the staff hostage.


and They call the Gov Shariah.....

[Link: tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

178 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:42:09pm

re: #173 crown_of_feathersEnjoy your downdings! Let me be first.

179 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:42:12pm

re: #173 crown_of_feathers

Hey, I've got a great idea, guys!

Forget about that site a couple of block away.

Why the heck can't we just build a mosque RIGHT ON THE SITE OF THE WTC?! (And it would be nice if it were paid for by NYC).

I can't think of a better testament to our sensitivity than that, can you?

Hey, what the hell, let's show our compassion ("Lockerbie-bomber-release style") by having this gentleman as the resident Imam:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Better yet, let us show that we in America will not be outdone by Europe, in our acceptance of Islam, by installing these fellows also as Imams, and elevating the peace dialog further with the Religion of Peace:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Oh, by the way...do you think that will make them like us more?

Hey Stupid (I can call you Stupid, right). I don't think this is a mater of us making anyone like us, it's a matter of following the law and out constitution. Would you like me to repeat that again much s l o w e r ?

180 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:42:13pm

re: #150 sagehen

OK, I stand corrected. I admittedly had not considered that in commenting on lawhawk's earlier comment. For that, I shall down-ding my own post.

181 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:42:58pm

re: #176 Charles

Oh, good grief. Here we go again.

Class of 2004 again....

182 darthstar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:43:08pm

re: #169 calochortus

I keep trying to think of something to say about all this-but in fact it just makes me sad. Demagogues throwing minorities under the bus. People turning on others to deny them the rights they they demand for themselves, as though it was a zero sum game. Its just so unnecessary. All that energy could go to something positive instead.

It's an election year, we have a minority president, and the birther/seekrit mooslim argument has been losing its effectiveness. So demagoguery is really all they have left.

The good news, however, is that the GOP and people like Krauthammer are once again shooting their load too early, and this story is going to peter out faster than Lindsey Lohan's jail sentence. In 80 days people are just going to be upset with the GOP for insulting their intelligence as they have.

183 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:43:13pm

re: #173 crown_of_feathers

Hey, I've got a great idea, guys!

Forget about that site a couple of block away.

Why the heck can't we just build a mosque RIGHT ON THE SITE OF THE WTC?! (And it would be nice if it were paid for by NYC).

I can't think of a better testament to our sensitivity than that, can you?

Hey, what the hell, let's show our compassion ("Lockerbie-bomber-release style") by having this gentleman as the resident Imam:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Better yet, let us show that we in America will not be outdone by Europe, in our acceptance of Islam, by installing these fellows also as Imams, and elevating the peace dialog further with the Religion of Peace:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Oh, by the way...do you think that will make them like us more?

You just don't get this whole 'freedom of religion' thing, do you?

Please find, that although the Second Amendment has an implied clause regarding militias, the First does not have one suggesting that the point of the Establishment clause is to make people like us.

184 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:43:27pm

re: #181 HoosierHoops

Class of 2004 again...

Oi!

/

185 webevintage  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:43:34pm

re: #173 crown_of_feathers

Oh, by the way...do you think that will make them like us more?

hahahahahahahaha
That was SO DAMN FUNNY.
You've got that Limbaugh "dry wit" down pat.

sigh.

186 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:43:47pm

re: #173 crown_of_feathers

Oh, by the way...do you think that will make them like us more?

I know this makes me like you less.

187 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:44:12pm

re: #180 sliv_the_eli

Oops, apparently I cannot down-ding myself. Anyone who wishes to do so on my behalf would be appreciated. Thanks.

188 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:44:16pm

re: #181 HoosierHoops

Class of 2004 again...

The problem children.

189 jayzee  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:44:26pm

re: #155 SanFranciscoZionist

All 5 boroughs. It's purely emotional. What's funny is my more conservative friends (who tend to be Jewish Orthodox) are not against it. They seem to understand the dangers that an attempt to prevent a religious facility from being built raises.

Hope all is well with you.

J

190 calochortus  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:44:40pm

re: #182 darthstar


The good news, however, is that the GOP and people like Krauthammer are once again shooting their load too early, and this story is going to peter out faster than Lindsey Lohan's jail sentence. In 80 days people are just going to be upset with the GOP for insulting their intelligence as they have.

We should be so lucky.

191 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:44:43pm

re: #170 SanFranciscoZionist

I like 'the gay monster'.

BTW, for those of you who believe that the fight is merely about calling same-sex partnerships, 'marriage', note what supporting domestic partner benefits did for Karen Handel.

who's Karen Handel?

192 webevintage  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:44:50pm

re: #187 sliv_the_eli

Oops, apparently I cannot down-ding myself. Anyone who wishes to do so on my behalf would be appreciated. Thanks.

did you forget your sarc tag?

193 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:45:10pm

re: #173 crown_of_feathers

Hey, I've got a great idea, guys!

you have no cerebrum.

and please - stfu.

194 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:45:40pm

re: #183 SanFranciscoZionist

You just don't get this whole 'freedom of religion' thing, do you?

Please find, that although the Second Amendment has an implied clause regarding militias, the First does not have one suggesting that the point of the Establishment clause is to make people like us.

That whole freedom of religion thing can't be meant for Muslims though right?

Don't you people get it?! The entire Muslim religion and all who follow it, attacked us on 9/11!!!!11!!
//
//

195 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:45:41pm

re: #188 eclectic infidel

The problem children.

Hey, just a minute there.

196 darthstar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:45:41pm

re: #173 crown_of_feathers

I normally don't make Darth Vader references because that's not exactly where my nic comes from, but in crown_of_feathers' case, I'll make an exception.

197 Mocking Jay  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:45:54pm

re: #184 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Oi!

/

Yeah, those bums from '04 really take the cake...

:P

198 jayzee  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:47:12pm

re: #157 lawhawk

You're right too many people with too much legitimate pain to make everyone happy. Just another indication of the deep scars caused by this attack.

199 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:47:20pm

re: #197 JasonA

Yeah, those bums from '04 really take the cake...

:P

Yeah, what a bunch of ignorant jackass...oh wait...

/

200 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:48:16pm

re: #195 Alouette

Hey, just a minute there.

Almost everyone from 2004 has flounced in childish fashion...You and Lawhawk are the gems from that class

201 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:48:22pm

re: #191 Aceofwhat?

who's Karen Handel?

Just lost the GA governor's race.

202 lawhawk  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:48:23pm

re: #171 sliv_the_eli

I haven't heard that Vantone (which isn't even going to be the biggest tenant now that Conde Nast appears to have signed for 1 million sf) opposed the name. The Port Authority was never happy with the Freedom Tower moniker, which was a holdover from Gov. George Pataki (R-NY) and his half-baked scheme for Ground Zero. Pataki backed Libeskind's master plan and referred to the site as the Freedom Tower, but the Port Authority always considered that tower to be 1WTC.

203 Mocking Jay  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:48:41pm

re: #199 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yeah, what a bunch of ignorant jackass...oh wait...

/

Charles, we've had so many problems with the '04 posters that we should probably just block them all. It's the only way to be sure. They can form their own blog, just nowhere near this one.

/

204 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:48:44pm

re: #200 HoosierHoops

Almost everyone from 2004 has flounced in childish fashion...You and Lawhawk are the gems from that class

And what am I, chopped liver.

205 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:48:53pm

re: #198 jayzee

You're right too many people with too much legitimate pain to make everyone happy. Just another indication of the deep scars caused by this attack.

Terror is meant to cause this precise kind of fracturing in society.

206 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:49:28pm

re: #196 darthstar

I normally don't make Darth Vader references because that's not exactly where my nic comes from, but in crown_of_feathers' case, I'll make an exception.

Image: tatoo-fail.jpg

207 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:49:41pm

re: #203 JasonA

Charles, we've had so many problems with the '04 posters that we should probably just block them all. It's the only way to be sure. They can form their own blog, just nowhere near this one.

/

I don't think so.

208 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:49:58pm

"To be fair to our audience, Harry Reid will fuck anything that moves."

I love Jon Stewart. I admit this.

209 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:50:09pm

re: #204 Walter L. Newton

And what am I, chopped liver.

LOL..Sorry Walter..You are more like a porterhouse steak
*wink*

210 Nimed  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:50:14pm

re: #195 Alouette

Hey, just a minute there.

:D

211 simoom  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:50:40pm
America is a free country where you can build whatever you want -- but not anywhere. That's why we have zoning laws. No liquor store near a school, no strip malls where they offend local sensibilities, and, if your house doesn't meet community architectural codes, you cannot build at all.

These restrictions are for reasons of aesthetics.

Since there are churches, chapels and synagogues across the street from or within a few blocks of Ground Zero, there clearly isn't a zoning issue with houses of worship in that general area. The above passage only makes sense to me if he's advocating some sort of new zoning laws that only target a single religion. And how exactly would he challenge Park51 on aesthetic grounds? The proposed architecture is a typical rectangular building with an energy-saving translucent glass facade. Unless the point of including that sentence was a sop to the more uninformed and reactionary parts of his readership that assume there will be giant minarets or something.

212 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:50:43pm

re: #192 webevintage

No, I actually have the ability to admit when I am wrong and am perfectly prepared to accept criticism and down-dings when they are based upon the lack of merit to my post. I therefore tried to down-ding my own poorly-thought-out and asinine post, not realizing that I could not do so. I guess that makes me stupid twice over, which is still at least three degrees less than how my wife would describe me.

213 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:51:28pm

The real problem here: there really are some Islamic groups that are promoting extremist views. And there really are some mosques that can be legitimately questioned for ties to extremism.

But when the bigots take over the conversation with charges of extremism against Muslims who are NOT extremists, they make it difficult or impossible to have that discussion.

214 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:51:49pm

re: #211 simoom

Since there are churches, chapels and synagogues across the street from or within a few blocks of Ground Zero, there clearly isn't a zoning issue with houses of worship in that general area. The above passage only makes sense to me if he's advocating some sort of new zoning laws that only target a single religion. And how exactly would he challenge Park51 on aesthetic grounds? The proposed architecture is a typical rectangular building with an energy-saving translucent glass facade. Unless the point of including that sentence was a sop to the more uninformed and reactionary parts of his readership that assume there will be giant minarets or something.

I think the 'aesthetics' referred to here are human ones--people just don't want to see Muslims in NYC.

///

215 isis_node  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:52:03pm

I'm beginning to understand why Mark Steyn hasn't written anything in over a month...When he comes back I hope he addresses the bewildering nonsense coming out of the Republican Party. If he doesn't, being as clever and observant as I believe him to be, well, it'll be another hero of mine lost to party politics.

216 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:52:35pm

re: #213 Charles

The real problem here: there really are some Islamic groups that are promoting extremist views. And there really are some mosques that can be legitimately questioned for ties to extremism.

But when the bigots take over the conversation with charges of extremism against Muslims who are NOT extremists, they make it difficult or impossible to have that discussion.

Seriously. How am I supposed to tell what's a real threat, when we get hysterical every time a Muslim sneezes?

217 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:52:37pm

re: #215 isis_node

I'm beginning to understand why Mark Steyn hasn't written anything in over a month...When he comes back I hope he addresses the bewildering nonsense coming out of the Republican Party. If he doesn't, being as clever and observant as I believe him to be, well, it'll be another hero of mine lost to party politics.

Don't hold your breath.

218 Nimed  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:52:54pm

re: #175 webevintage

Well, sometimes an engorged, fully erect male phallus is just a engorged, fully erect male phallus.

/sigh, some people see cigar shapes in everything

219 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:53:03pm

re: #213 Charles

The real problem here: there really are some Islamic groups that are promoting extremist views. And there really are some mosques that can be legitimately questioned for ties to extremism.

But when the bigots take over the conversation with charges of extremism against Muslims who are NOT extremists, they make it difficult or impossible to have that discussion.

I'd posit that, in many cases, they simply don't want to have that discussion. That they prefer to stick to a far "simpler" line of logic of simply hating all Muslims, suggesting that those Muslims who are not out in the open with their hate are simply hiding it in order to "fit in."

220 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:53:49pm

re: #204 Walter L. Newton

And what am I, chopped liver.

With a glass of Chianti.

221 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:54:08pm

re: #195 Alouette

Hey, just a minute there.

You're right. I should have narrowed that comment down a bit.

You're a sweet heart, among being intelligent, mature, knowledgeable, and very well-spoken (via the written word).

222 lawhawk  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:54:10pm

re: #211 simoom

Including the St. Nicholas' Church, a Greek Orthodox Church that was completely destroyed by the collapsing towers. That site has yet to be determined because of the ongoing need to demolish the former Deutshce Bank building.

Layout of the former WTC complex.

The revised master plan showing 1 through 7 WTC.

223 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:55:25pm

"And, actually, Ben Franklin very much wanted to fly and have babies all over the world, that's why he invented the sex kite."

224 darthstar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:55:35pm

Sharron Angle's getting in touch with her inner Pinochet.

Republican U.S. Senate hopeful Sharron Angle says the nation's Social Security system needs to be privatized, and she says it was done before in Chile.

Uh, Sharron...just because "Pinochet" has a nice ring to it doesn't mean he was a nice person...

225 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:55:59pm

re: #221 eclectic infidel

You're right. I should have narrowed that comment down a bit.

You're a sweet heart, among being intelligent, mature, knowledgeable, and very well-spoken (via the written word).

And that goes for all remaining 2004 lizardettes? :)

226 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:56:47pm

re: #202 lawhawk


The technical address was always going to be 1 WTC, because the Post Office and the 911 (the emergency number, not the date) system requires street addresses. However, the building itself was originally going to be called the Freedom Tower (hence the symbolic 1,776 foot height, etc.). If I recall correctly, the project ran into funding difficulties a few years back and required the sale of bonds which, as with most deficit-funded projects in the U.S. these days, were bought in large amount by Chinese lenders who objected to calling the building the "Freedom Tower". I don't recall if the politics of the issue ever hit the newspapers, but I have heard this from multiple sources who are intimately involved with the project.

227 lawhawk  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:56:51pm

re: #211 simoom

Also, the proposed structure was going to get LEED certification - the first mosque in the nation with that certification.

228 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:56:51pm

re: #179 Walter L. Newton

Hey Stupid (I can call you Stupid, right). I don't think this is a mater of us making anyone like us, it's a matter of following the law and out constitution. Would you like me to repeat that again much s l o w e r ?

Once we started discarding parts of the constitution in order to fight the GWOT, the slide into this madness began. None of this is new, per se, it's just that it's getting particularly ugly of late. I'm speaking specifically of the torture memos, National Security Letters, suspending habeus corpus in terrorism cases, etc.

The sooner people realize that terrorism is and always was a law enforcement issue, and a massive one, domestically, the sooner we can begin to wind back the crazy. I don't think people are prepared to to go there yet, sadly. People tried to say it, be they were angrily rebuked soon after 9/11. OBL knew that we would abandon our principles and mire ourselves in a crippling conflict. We reacted exactly as he wanted us to. He won. And he even got away with it. It SUCKS, but it is true.

Just because the scale of the crime is massive, and the damage catastrophic, doesn't mean that we should have ever even considered weakening constitutional protections for the accused. It doesn't mean we should have declared an unwinnable war (you can't win when there are no definable terms of victory) on an ideology, rather than targeted those places which harbor training camps for terrorists specifically.

We went into Iraq, as part of the GWOT. Iraq was not part of the problem. The problem is that our intelligence agencies had fallen into disarray. The problem is and always was that you simply cannot always prevent people who don't care if they survive the effort from doing terrible things. The problem is that we substituted revenge for mourning, as a country. The problem is that we labeled states as enemies after being attacked by stateless entities.

I expect I will be downdinged mercilessly for saying this, but it bears repeating. The source of this insanity is that we abandoned due process years ago as regards terrorism. We abandoned our own principles and the Geneva Conventions. Krauthammer, Yoo, etc, were instrumental in this.

What makes anyone think they would somehow re-embrace the principles that they abandoned years ago when it comes to this issue?

229 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:56:55pm

re: #225 wrenchwench

And that goes for all remaining 2004 lizardettes? :)

Uh. YES!

230 Nimed  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:57:36pm

re: #221 eclectic infidel

You're right. I should have narrowed that comment down a bit.

You're a sweet heart, among being intelligent, mature, knowledgeable, and very well-spoken (via the written word).

Pandering to the 2004 class? Perhaps you think that will make them like us more.

231 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:57:39pm

re: #225 wrenchwench

And that goes for all remaining 2004 lizardettes? :)

finest buxomist wench on all the boards

232 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:58:42pm

re: #230 Nimed

Pandering to the 2004 class? Perhaps you think that will make them like us more.

The sane ones, sure. Plus Alouette makes pies. PIES!

233 tradewind  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:58:43pm

Without regard for ( or addressing ) the arguments pro and con the project, here's a thought as to why so many reasonable people are so emotional and upset about the proposed construction:
9-11 was a singular, and seminal event in our nation's history, much more than just one of those ' where were you when ' moments. Many people were, and are so marked by the trauma of that day that... regardless of measured distances or other statistics re the location... they cannot imagine this building as an acceptable part of what to them is an area to be revered.
Again, this is not my personal argument for or against.... it's just a reason I believe that the Cordoba House is such a hot button for many.
I'm specifically excluding from this argument/group those who hate all Muslims or think they are all un-American.... because their opinion is irrelevant.

234 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:59:04pm

re: #230 Nimed

Pandering to the 2004 class? Perhaps you think that will make them like us more.

Of course not, I hate you all equally.

///

235 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:59:36pm

re: #232 eclectic infidel

The sane ones, sure. Plus Alouette makes pies. PIES!

mmmmm PIE

236 blueraven  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 12:59:44pm

re: #173 crown_of_feathers

Hey, I've got a great idea, guys!

Forget about that site a couple of block away.

Why the heck can't we just build a mosque RIGHT ON THE SITE OF THE WTC?! (And it would be nice if it were paid for by NYC).

I can't think of a better testament to our sensitivity than that, can you?

Hey, what the hell, let's show our compassion ("Lockerbie-bomber-release style") by having this gentleman as the resident Imam:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Better yet, let us show that we in America will not be outdone by Europe, in our acceptance of Islam, by installing these fellows also as Imams, and elevating the peace dialog further with the Religion of Peace:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Oh, by the way...do you think that will make them like us more?

No, but if we are not careful we will become more like them, (the radicals) and less like us.

237 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:00:07pm

re: #220 wozzablog

And fava beans.

238 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:02:55pm

re: #233 tradewind

Many people were, and are so marked by the trauma of that day that... regardless of measured distances or other statistics re the location... they cannot imagine this building as an acceptable part of what to them is an area to be revered.

That's no excuse, so it's not an acceptable reason to behave like a bigot, even if one is entitled to one's feelings.

239 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:03:21pm

Featherheads. There's one in every crowd.

240 lawhawk  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:03:46pm

re: #226 sliv_the_eli

The bonding you speak of are Liberty bonds (and coincidentially, if the Chinese were upset over Freedom Tower, wouldn't they be upset by "Liberty bonds"). They could have gone with 1WTC or Freedom Tower, but the Port Authority's nomenclature won out since they retain ownership of the site.

What to call the buildings going up at Ground Zero has been a touchy subject since the debris was finally removed by 2003. I still refer to it as Freedom Tower, but will also cite it as 1WTC since the PANY prefers that name, even if the cornerstone had Freedom Tower on it.

MSNBC's report on the name change says that the name change by the Port Authority Board was a marketing decision, and had nothing to do with Vantone's lease.

241 tradewind  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:05:05pm

re: #99 lawhawk
Has the project actually been funded yet? I know there was a lot of controversy as to where the money would originate, but that aside, is the money even there?

242 Mike DeGuzman  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:05:48pm

re: #139 sliv_the_eli

Speaking as a lifelong centrist Democrat, the Republicans are doing a phenomenal job of trying to pull defeat from the jaws of victory in 2010, by nominating people so extreme that moderates and independents will vote for the left wing again only because they are less crazy than the loons being nominated by the Repubs.

If unemployment continues to climb and bailouts continues the moderates and independents may vote to the right.

243 tradewind  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:05:59pm

re: #238 wrenchwench
That's not the point. I wasn't arguing the merits of their emotions. I was merely pointing them out as reasons behind reactions, which was the question.

244 ShaunP  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:06:05pm

re: #233 tradewind

Without regard for ( or addressing ) the arguments pro and con the project, here's a thought as to why so many reasonable people are so emotional and upset about the proposed construction:
9-11 was a singular, and seminal event in our nation's history, much more than just one of those ' where were you when ' moments. Many people were, and are so marked by the trauma of that day that... regardless of measured distances or other statistics re the location... they cannot imagine this building as an acceptable part of what to them is an area to be revered.
Again, this is not my personal argument for or against... it's just a reason I believe that the Cordoba House is such a hot button for many.
I'm specifically excluding from this argument/group those who hate all Muslims or think they are all un-American... because their opinion is irrelevant.

The fact that this argument has gained any traction is a testament to how little people know about Islam. We don't go complaining to Baptists about the pope and child abuse. We should not be complaining to all muslims about the crimes of the wahabbi terrorists...

245 lawhawk  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:06:10pm

re: #241 tradewind

No, there's no word on financing having been lined up.

246 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:07:50pm

re: #243 tradewind

That's not the point. I wasn't arguing the merits of their emotions. I was merely pointing them out as reasons behind reactions, which was the question.

And I was pointing out that they are not good reasons.

247 tradewind  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:08:23pm

re: #244 ShaunP
Sigh.
Again, this is not a reasoned argument for or against the project, nor did I offer it as such.
It's a rationale for the behavior and emotional reactions of those who are protesting against it.

248 Nimed  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:08:40pm

re: #234 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

lol. Fair is fair.

You, Alouette, wrenchwench, Kragar and Walter make it a little bit more difficult to use the broad brush. But you know what they say, nothing worthwhile is ever easy.

249 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:09:57pm

re: #213 Charles

I agree that the extremists make it difficult to do so. Whether they make it impossible is entierely a function of whether the rest of us reduce the discourse to name-calling and knee-jerk rejection of any opposing viewpoint. People of good will do not always agree, but retreating into silence on the theory that having the discussion is impossible is not an option.

250 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:10:22pm

re: #247 tradewind

Sigh.
Again, this is not a reasoned argument for or against the project, nor did I offer it as such.
It's a rationale for the behavior and emotional reactions of those who are protesting against it.

i believe that the disconnect, if you'll permit my bluntness, is that you're working to explain something that just about everyone here has already grasped...

251 webevintage  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:10:32pm

it is now that kind of day.
within the time from my last post and now my husband closed one of the cats between the door and screen door (cat was saved by one of our dogs doing the danger, danger bark at the door and then i saw the cat hanging by its claws from the door window...and yes...it was actually hi-larious since no one died) and I was being a moron with a knife trying to pry 2 frozen pork chops apart (holding in my left hand because i am a moron) and yeah, it slid though and into my finger....deep..lots of blood....sigh.
i need some liquor and a nap.

252 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:10:38pm

re: #243 tradewind

That's not the point. I wasn't arguing the merits of their emotions. I was merely pointing them out as reasons behind reactions, which was the question.

Oddly enough, the loudest and most emotional yellers against this...somehow I don't believe their personal emotional scarring.

Sarah Palin's 'heartland' routine aside.

253 Nimed  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:10:44pm

re: #248 Nimed

AND CATO, I haste to add.

(yeah, just found out you're from that class)

254 darthstar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:11:22pm

re: #248 Nimed

lol. Fair is fair.

You, Alouette, wrenchwench, Kragar and Walter make it a little bit more difficult to use the broad brush. But you know what they say, nothing worthwhile is ever easy.

Let's not forget Charles...he's part of the class of 2004 as well...hm...could it be...a CONSPIRACY!!?!

255 tradewind  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:11:26pm

re: #246 wrenchwench
Oh, I'm sorry. It must have been distressing not to have been allowed your feelings as a child.///
Emotions are not good or bad... they just are.
It's like telling a child not to cry, that they aren't really sad because they don't have a good reason to be.
I am offering an opinion as to why there have been strong reactions from people who are not necessarily bigots and imbeciles.... not deciding whether they are right or wrong.

256 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:11:35pm

re: #233 tradewind

I'm specifically excluding from this argument/group those who hate all Muslims or think they are all un-American... because their opinion is irrelevant.

Apparently not.

257 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:12:28pm

re: #248 Nimed

lol. Fair is fair.

You, Alouette, wrenchwench, Kragar and Walter make it a little bit more difficult to use the broad brush. But you know what they say, nothing worthwhile is ever easy.

Literally hundreds from the class of 2004 have flounced...It was an interesting class that painted themselves with a broad brush....
The Class of 2004.. The Good the bad and the ugly
/

258 tradewind  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:13:05pm

re: #250 Aceofwhat?
Well since I just logged on, I'm probably not up to speed. Maybe it's completely understood and the question above was answered.
It's just an opinion, after all.

259 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:14:13pm

BB later this evening... got to get to work... check some groceries... cash some checks... make change... smile at the customers... anyone need a meat pie?

260 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:14:20pm

re: #240 lawhawk

Having dealt with the press in a previous lifetime, I can state from experience that MSNBC's failure to report any connection does not mean there is none. As often as not, such "news articles" are nothing more than re-writes of press releases issued by an organization (witness, for example, news reports following any public companies issuance of its press release announcing quarterly earnings). I had heard something different from several sources with behind-the-scenes knowledge. It is, of course, possible that they had their own political axe to grind, but that was not the impression I got when speaking to them.

261 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:14:43pm

re: #233 tradewind

Without regard for ( or addressing ) the arguments pro and con the project, here's a thought as to why so many reasonable people are so emotional and upset about the proposed construction:
9-11 was a singular, and seminal event in our nation's history, much more than just one of those ' where were you when ' moments. Many people were, and are so marked by the trauma of that day that... regardless of measured distances or other statistics re the location... they cannot imagine this building as an acceptable part of what to them is an area to be revered.
Again, this is not my personal argument for or against... it's just a reason I believe that the Cordoba House is such a hot button for many.
I'm specifically excluding from this argument/group those who hate all Muslims or think they are all un-American... because their opinion is irrelevant.

We approach the time where we must sit ourselves down and admit where we did overreact, and where we are over reacting. We need to stop overreacting.

I think your post makes a great case as to why and how many are overreacting to 9/11. Many would argue we are not there yet and all this hysteria is perfectly reasonable. To them I can only say I'm not living that way. And leave all the constitutional rights intact, or face real serious opposition.

262 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:15:50pm

re: #251 webevintage

finish knife work...THEN liquor and a nap...just looking out for you/

263 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:16:37pm

re: #242 Mike DeGuzman

We might, but the craziness coming from the Republican Party is going to make it more difficult to do so in many places.

264 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:17:15pm

re: #248 Nimed

lol. Fair is fair.

You, Alouette, wrenchwench, Kragar and Walter make it a little bit more difficult to use the broad brush. But you know what they say, nothing worthwhile is ever easy.

*ahem*

265 tradewind  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:17:27pm

re: #254 darthstar
' Return with us now to those days of yesteryear'
( cue opening credits score from Lone Ranger ).
Back in the Wild Wild West.

266 RadicalModerate  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:17:55pm

The whole "no new mosques" talking point that the American Family Association is currently advocating struck me as something that I had heard before recently, and I had to do a little bit of digging to find the story.

Granted, the other group isn't in the United States, but the reasoning they are giving is almost exactly that of the AFA, but the sentiment is the same. Not surprisingly, the group is a personal favorite of one of the loudest Cordoba Project opponents, Pam "Shrieking Harpy" Geller.

EDL calls for ban on veil – and on construction of mosques

267 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:18:10pm

re: #264 reine.de.tout

*ahem*

He's going to be clicking on avatars for days... :)

268 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:18:29pm

Fianally there is a good History Channel show on.. Robert Sherrod reporting about the war in the pacific in 1943.. I never thought I'd watch that channel again.. It's all about UFO's, Monsters, Fables and the Bible anymore..History? Not so much

269 lawhawk  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:18:41pm

re: #260 sliv_the_eli

I've been following the rebuilding for some time, so I hear lots of rumblings and grumblings, but the Vantone thing was an issue of timing that made it look like Vantone was getting a name change to suit its political outlook - even if it was a tenant (and the first one signed to that point). If the change was indeed done to ease Vantone's concerns in signing the lease, then the fault rests with the Port Authority and its leadership. It has been my impression that the PANY was never enthused about the Freedom Tower name from the outset.

270 tradewind  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:18:57pm

re: #261 Rightwingconspirator
Thanks for a reasoned answer as opposed to a lecture.

271 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:19:13pm

re: #261 Rightwingconspirator

We approach the time where we must sit ourselves down and admit where we did overreact, and where we are over reacting. We need to stop overreacting.

I think your post makes a great case as to why and how many are overreacting to 9/11. Many would argue we are not there yet and all this hysteria is perfectly reasonable. To them I can only say I'm not living that way. And leave all the constitutional rights intact, or face real serious opposition.

Take a look at my post #228. None of this is new. This madness started immediately following 9/11, and it began to grow when we began to abandon our principles.

There's a reason we have a shared set of principles. It's so that we don't have to even have conversations about how many of them we are willing to abandon when we are frightened. It's so that we don't have to renegotiate what it means to be a free society on a case by case basis.

The GWOT, framed as such, was a mistake. Abandoning the Geneva conventions on torture was a mistake. Denying people arrested on American soil due process, regardless of how evil they may be, was a mistake.

Once you start down that slope, it's hard as hell to put the brakes on. The slope started a decade ago, not in the last couple of years. This is a continuation of a process, not the start of it.

272 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:19:49pm

re: #268 HoosierHoops

Fianally there is a good History Channel show on.. Robert Sherrod reporting about the war in the pacific in 1943.. I never thought I'd watch that channel again.. It's all about UFO's, Monsters, Fables and the Bible anymore..History? Not so much

Discovery Channel has been running a show called "speed of life". Slow-mo, HD nature camerawork. Lovely stuff.

273 Nimed  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:20:14pm

re: #233 tradewind

Well, it's helpful to distinguish people who are just unhappy with the cultural center from the ones who seek to pull some kind of stunt to avoid its construction. Lots of people bitched about the construction of the new IKEA in Brooklyn, to use a much lighter example also in NYC. But they didn't suggest government interference, or attributed all kinds of imperialistic ambitions to the Swedish people.

274 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:20:29pm

re: #271 Fozzie Bear


see my -
re: #205 wozzablog

275 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:20:36pm

I'm totally open to the emotional side and understand that there are a lot of folks who do not agree with the construction of Cordoba House because of the pain of 9/11. And that proximity and personal connection or lack thereof do not make that pain any more or less relevant. But what I understand, what I believe most lizards understand now is that emotion does not carry the weight of law. They certainly deserve consideration, but they cannot be the basis for depriving persons of their rights and freedoms.

276 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:21:31pm

re: #267 wrenchwench

He's going to be clicking on avatars for days... :)

(shhh - I'm actually class of '07 - another banner year though, IIRC)

277 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:21:54pm

re: #205 wozzablog

Terror is meant to cause this precise kind of fracturing in society.

EXACTLY. The sooner we understand the goals of terrorism, the sooner we can begin to resist acquiescing to the manipulations of those who want to appeal to our lesser nature.

278 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:22:11pm

re: #272 Aceofwhat?

Discovery Channel has been running a show called "speed of life". Slow-mo, HD nature camerawork. Lovely stuff.

Last week on discovery channel was shark week..It rocked..Science channel is great...History channel has become a joke..

279 tradewind  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:22:24pm

re: #252 SanFranciscoZionist
That's pretty cynical, but it's certainly your right.
When people tell me they've been greatly affected by a tragic event , I usually take them at face value.

280 tradewind  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:23:37pm

re: #273 Nimed
They probably can't ever remember anything associated with IKEA worse than the heartbreak of losing one of the necessary screws in the box./

281 lawhawk  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:23:40pm

re: #200 HoosierHoops

And apparently my continued presence here seems to have ex-LGFers wondering why and how I am still around....

282 Nimed  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:24:02pm

re: #264 reine.de.tout

*ahem*

Oh, man... I'm sorry, reine. And you, it goes without saying.

Ok, now there's really no more people, I hope.

283 ShaunP  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:24:35pm

re: #247 tradewind

Sigh.
Again, this is not a reasoned argument for or against the project, nor did I offer it as such.
It's a rationale for the behavior and emotional reactions of those who are protesting against it.

I know. And I was commenting that the reason this rationale exists is because Americans in large part know next to nothing about Islam.

IMO, an argument is a rationale, but w/e...

284 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:24:50pm

re: #281 lawhawk

And apparently my continued presence here seems to have ex-LGFers wondering why and how I am still around...

We've got you handcuffed to a chair, with a gun pointed to your head. Now get back to typing or you lose another finger.

///

285 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:25:01pm

re: #281 lawhawk

And apparently my continued presence here seems to have ex-LGFers wondering why and how I am still around...

They are. They wonder about several (Walter included, though they themselves are not particularly fond of him)

286 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:25:04pm

re: #276 reine.de.tout

(shhh - I'm actually class of '07 - another banner year though, IIRC)

The class of '07 was famous for flouncing over Beck, Limbaugh, Malkin and Geller. The class of '04 specializes in flouncing over anything related to the Global War On Terror or GWB or the Republican Party, or...wait--that's not "specializing", is it.

287 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:25:13pm

re: #275 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I'm totally open to the emotional side and understand that there are a lot of folks who do not agree with the construction of Cordoba House because of the pain of 9/11. And that proximity and personal connection or lack thereof do not make that pain any more or less relevant. But what I understand, what I believe most lizards understand now is that emotion does not carry the weight of law. They certainly deserve consideration, but they cannot be the basis for depriving persons of their rights and freedoms.

we display it all of the time, though. take sports...how many rabid fans would happily accept a poor call by a referee as long as it was in their favor?

"We all carry within us our places of exile, our crimes, and our ravages. But our task is not to unleash them on the world; it is to fight them in ourselves and in others. "

-Camus

288 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:25:35pm

re: #269 lawhawk

Port Authority was probably not enthused with the name precisely because they thought it was too U.S.-centric and might dissuade some foreign potential tenants from locating in the building. On the other hand, at the rate they have been moving, anyone they thought they might have to deal with will have long since retired by the time the building is actually ready for occupancy.

289 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:26:11pm

re: #286 wrenchwench

The class of '07 was famous for flouncing over Beck, Limbaugh, Malkin and Geller. The class of '04 specializes in flouncing over anything related to the Global War On Terror or GWB or the Republican Party, or...wait--that's not "specializing", is it.

'07 also flounced over Spencer, IIRC. And evolution. And really, any respect for the Office of the (current) President.

290 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:26:27pm

re: #251 webevintage

it is now that kind of day.
within the time from my last post and now my husband closed one of the cats between the door and screen door (cat was saved by one of our dogs doing the danger, danger bark at the door and then i saw the cat hanging by its claws from the door window...and yes...it was actually hi-larious since no one died) and I was being a moron with a knife trying to pry 2 frozen pork chops apart (holding in my left hand because i am a moron) and yeah, it slid though and into my finger...deep..lots of blood...sigh.
i need some liquor and a nap.

I have four scars on my left hand from assassination attempts made by the right hand while it had hold of a knife. One was industrial, but two of them are from using a knife trying to pry frozen food items apart... :(

If it's deep take the time to get stitches at the hospital and make sure there is no nerve damage. Otherwise it can be more problematic healing up and with more scar tissue.

291 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:26:28pm

re: #278 HoosierHoops

Last week on discovery channel was shark week..It rocked..Science channel is great...History channel has become a joke..

i didn't watch all of it, but i love the shots over on the West Coast where the great whites launch themselves out of the water...breathtaking stuff.

292 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:27:40pm

re: #279 tradewind

That's pretty cynical, but it's certainly your right.
When people tell me they've been greatly affected by a tragic event , I usually take them at face value.

What a cynic I must be.

293 Nimed  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:27:44pm

re: #276 reine.de.tout

Grumble.

294 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:28:01pm

re: #289 reine.de.tout

'07 also flounced over Spencer, IIRC. And evolution. And really, any respect for the Office of the (current) President.

Oh, yes! And there's AGW! That pretty much spans the years. Creationism/evolution might have been the biggie.

295 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:28:02pm

re: #287 Aceofwhat?

Hey Ace..Napa Plays in the little league play-offs today at 5pm EST on ESPN..
Go Napa!

296 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:28:37pm

re: #290 oaktree

I have four scars on my left hand from assassination attempts made by the right hand while it had hold of a knife. One was industrial, but two of them are from using a knife trying to pry frozen food items apart... :(

i have one of those scars as well. it's a small hammer and an old table knife for me now.

297 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:28:49pm

Anyone know what time Steve's surgery is?

298 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:29:25pm

re: #282 Nimed

Oh, man... I'm sorry, reine. And you, it goes without saying.

Ok, now there's really no more people, I hope.

*snicker*
Better have all your ducks in a row next time, buddy-boy.
/

299 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:30:02pm

re: #281 lawhawk

And apparently my continued presence here seems to have ex-LGFers wondering why and how I am still around...

well, if they can't figure out something so obvious, then we at least understand why they're EX-lizards...

300 Big Steve  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:30:03pm

OT here. Couple of days ago an perfectly innocent 14year old black girl was gunned down a few feet from her driveway in Houston. It was was an apparent case of random robbery in which the girl actually had absolutely nothing that anyone would want. It turns out that the alleged assailants are both illegal immigrants with the trigger man having been deported two times already. Today a local community activist Quannell X, who is Houston's version of Reverand Al Sharpton is now calling for Arizonia type immigration laws. So this is now the far left part of the African American community calling for strict immigration reform...Family of slain teen calls for illegal immigrant crackdown

301 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:30:05pm

re: #297 SanFranciscoZionist

Anyone know what time Steve's surgery is?

He said he would check into the hospital at noon. So should be going on now, or coming up soon, I would think.

302 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:30:14pm

re: #297 SanFranciscoZionist

Anyone know what time Steve's surgery is?

Walter is on it

303 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:30:44pm

re: #299 Aceofwhat?

well, if they can't figure out something so obvious, then we at least understand why they're EX-lizards...

eggs-acktly.

304 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:32:02pm

re: #300 Big Steve

OT here. Couple of days ago an perfectly innocent 14year old black girl was gunned down a few feet from her driveway in Houston. It was was an apparent case of random robbery in which the girl actually had absolutely nothing that anyone would want. It turns out that the alleged assailants are both illegal immigrants with the trigger man having been deported two times already. Today a local community activist Quannell X, who is Houston's version of Reverand Al Sharpton is now calling for Arizonia type immigration laws. So this is now the far left part of the African American community calling for strict immigration reform...Family of slain teen calls for illegal immigrant crackdown

The poor kid. I can't imagine what her family is going through.

305 webevintage  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:32:20pm

re: #290 oaktree

I have four scars on my left hand from assassination attempts made by the right hand while it had hold of a knife. One was industrial, but two of them are from using a knife trying to pry frozen food items apart... :(

My husband is one of those "put a bandage on it, you'll be fine kind of folks".

what really suck is that this hand has a nice scar in the palm from the same activity and while i was prying apart the chops i actually thought "i hope i don't cut myself"....

306 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:32:52pm

re: #290 oaktree

I have four scars on my left hand from assassination attempts made by the right hand while it had hold of a knife. One was industrial, but two of them are from using a knife trying to pry frozen food items apart... :(

If it's deep take the time to get stitches at the hospital and make sure there is no nerve damage. Otherwise it can be more problematic healing up and with more scar tissue.

I should never be allowed to pick up a knife. Ever.

I've had more cuts on my hands - once I cut the pads off of two fingers, had to drive myself to the ER - got there, asked the guard where I could park, he took one look at the towel wrapped around my hand and said, "Hon, you go on in - I'll park your car and bring your keys to you". There wasn't even anything they could stitch, just had to bandage it up.

307 McSpiff  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:33:22pm

re: #297 SanFranciscoZionist

Anyone know what time Steve's surgery is?

First time I've had the guy on my mind at work without thinking "How could someone be so wrong about something so obvious!".

/// (We call each other idiots. its what we do)

We're all pullin for ya steve.

308 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:33:34pm

re: #305 webevintage

My husband is one of those "put a bandage on it, you'll be fine kind of folks".

what really suck is that this hand has a nice scar in the palm from the same activity and while i was prying apart the chops i actually thought "i hope i don't cut myself"...

LOL.
Sorry, Webeve - I'm laughing because I've done the exact same thing - cut myself while thinking, "I hope I don't cut myself".

309 Kragar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:33:44pm

re: #248 Nimed

lol. Fair is fair.

You, Alouette, wrenchwench, Kragar and Walter make it a little bit more difficult to use the broad brush. But you know what they say, nothing worthwhile is ever easy.

You're all bastards.

What were you talking about anyways?

310 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:34:06pm

re: #297 SanFranciscoZionist

Anyone know what time Steve's surgery is?

No..but it really bums me out...Saturday I head back to Indiana so tonight will be our last special Sabbath prayer list for awhile and it will return to Sundays at 10am EST next week..Steve will be on the top of of list...I can't imagine losing a leg and he is so brave to face it and needs our prayers for a speedy recovery...

311 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:35:03pm

re: #300 Big Steve

OT here. Couple of days ago an perfectly innocent 14year old black girl was gunned down a few feet from her driveway in Houston. It was was an apparent case of random robbery in which the girl actually had absolutely nothing that anyone would want. It turns out that the alleged assailants are both illegal immigrants with the trigger man having been deported two times already. Today a local community activist Quannell X, who is Houston's version of Reverand Al Sharpton is now calling for Arizonia type immigration laws. So this is now the far left part of the African American community calling for strict immigration reform...Family of slain teen calls for illegal immigrant crackdown

There's another case of a reaction based on emotion and political pandering. They already have the tools in place to catch and prosecute these people, they just need to use them more, which takes more funding FOR EXISTING PROGRAMS. The Arizona law will only distract from getting the criminal element off the streets and out of the revolving door.

312 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:35:14pm

re: #306 reine.de.tout

i hurt a little just reading that...yowza...finger pads have lots of nerve endings *shudder*

313 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:35:45pm

re: #310 HoosierHoops

No..but it really bums me out...Saturday I head back to Indiana so tonight will be our last special Sabbath prayer list for awhile and it will return to Sundays at 10am EST next week..Steve will be on the top of of list...I can't imagine losing a leg and he is so brave to face it and needs our prayers for a speedy recovery...

Those of us who pray, are praying for him, HH, even without the prayer list.
And everyone else is wishing him the best. So it's all good . . .

314 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:36:36pm

re: #313 reine.de.tout

Those of us who pray, are praying for him, HH, even without the prayer list.
And everyone else is wishing him the best. So it's all good . . .

Oh boy, I had not heard. Prayers for Steve here too.

315 tradewind  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:36:40pm

re: #300 Big Steve
Similar situations have happened here, but haven't evoked that response from the Reverend.
There is a lot of animosity between members of the African American community and undocumented immigrants here, which seems illogical on its face.

316 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:36:40pm

re: #312 Aceofwhat?

i hurt a little just reading that...yowza...finger pads have lots of nerve endings *shudder*

Oh, yes. And fingers bleed like crazy.
I actually stopped at a stupid red light on my way to the ER - I finally realized there was NOTHING COMING and I had an emergency and if a cop stopped me, it would probably be OK - before I ran that light.

317 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:37:01pm

re: #306 reine.de.tout

I should never be allowed to pick up a knife. Ever.

I've had more cuts on my hands - once I cut the pads off of two fingers, had to drive myself to the ER - got there, asked the guard where I could park, he took one look at the towel wrapped around my hand and said, "Hon, you go on in - I'll park your car and bring your keys to you". There wasn't even anything they could stitch, just had to bandage it up.

My boss at a deli had a cut like that and they did a graft with skin from his wrist. He hovered like a mother hen whenever I used a knife after that, until I reminded him who got injured.

318 Big Steve  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:37:29pm

re: #304 SanFranciscoZionist

I know, it was a mortifying waste of her precious life. She was a cheerful, somewhat chubby Jr High girl, well liked, not in trouble. The murder was described as just an oportunity crime. She had no money on her. The interesting part is that being Texas he will get the death penalty then all the complaints will be that we are executing foreign nationals again.

319 McSpiff  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:38:00pm

re: #313 reine.de.tout

Those of us who pray, are praying for him, HH, even without the prayer list.
And everyone else is wishing him the best. So it's all good . . .

Sending all the positive vibes I can for sure.

320 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:38:52pm

re: #317 wrenchwench

My boss at a deli had a cut like that and they did a graft with skin from his wrist. He hovered like a mother hen whenever I used a knife after that, until I reminded him who got injured.

They told me my injury would "fill in", and it did, you have to look really hard to see the damage.

Your boss - LOL - that's funny. My mom used to hover like that over me, and every time she did it, I would screw up whatever it was I was doing. She never understood I was just FINE if she would just leave me alone.

321 Nimed  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:40:31pm

re: #280 tradewind

They probably can't ever remember anything associated with IKEA worse than the heartbreak of losing one of the necessary screws in the box./

Vikings. Enough said.

322 McSpiff  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:41:22pm

re: #318 Big Steve

I know, it was a mortifying waste of her precious life. She was a cheerful, somewhat chubby Jr High girl, well liked, not in trouble. The murder was described as just an oportunity crime. She had no money on her. The interesting part is that being Texas he will get the death penalty then all the complaints will be that we are executing foreign nationals again.

As a foreign national who just returned from the US (Boston was amazing, not sure if I posted about the trip here yet? Very spur of the moment), my opinion is that once you enter the US (legally or illegally) you're a guest, and as such follow the rules as you would anywhere else. I understood that laws were different, and did my best to follow them. Oddly enough, the laws between Canada and the States are similar enough that I think I succeeded reasonably well. Stayed out of jail anyways. But if I had committed a crime, I would have never expected to be punished any differently than a citizen.

323 tradewind  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:41:26pm

Has anyone heard when the next Wikileaks dump is coming?
I watched a Reporters W/Out Borders journalist from Belgium today who was so distraught over the inclusion of names, especially Afghani names, that she was in tears. There can be no possible justification for this, it could be a death sentence for the named individuals.

324 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:44:17pm

re: #315 tradewind

Similar situations have happened here, but haven't evoked that response from the Reverend.
There is a lot of animosity between members of the African American community and undocumented immigrants here, which seems illogical on its face.

Economically, it makes sense in some communities. Then there's just plain suspicion of the other.

325 freetoken  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:45:34pm

In discussing whether (and how much) current American populism is fascistic I've kicked around the idea that we shouldn't think of German Nazism, but South American chaos as the model.

Well....

Sharron Angle will protect Social Security, like Pinochet did

Angle want's to emulate Pinochet... egads.

Anyway, as the Salon article points out, the Chilean so called private system has already had to be modified to address those left out of Pinochet's idea.

326 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:45:36pm

re: #324 SanFranciscoZionist

Economically, it makes sense in some communities. Then there's just plain suspicion of the other.

yep. it's not always about skin color.

327 cliffster  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:45:51pm

re: #313 reine.de.tout

Those of us who pray, are praying for him, HH, even without the prayer list.
And everyone else is wishing him the best. So it's all good . . .

yeah, I know I sure will. and prayers from texas count double..

328 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:46:49pm

re: #57 SanFranciscoZionist

Although there is a house in my old neighborhood that has been converted into a Russian Orthodox Church. So, basically, you've got an old single-family that has been modified with small onion domes and Orthdox-style crosses, and a painting over the door.

One of my friends was deeply startled by it. She thought it was someone's house, that they had decorated to express their...intense...faith.

NO TRESPASSING: THIS HOUSE PROTECTED BY LAZER RASPUTIN AND HIS COSMIC BEAR MINIONS

329 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:47:58pm
330 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:48:16pm

re: #329 Aceofwhat?

Mastodon...i should have known/

*high five*

:D

331 ShaunP  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:52:18pm

re: #325 freetoken

In discussing whether (and how much) current American populism is fascistic I've kicked around the idea that we shouldn't think of German Nazism, but South American chaos as the model.

Well...

Sharron Angle will protect Social Security, like Pinochet did

Angle want's to emulate Pinochet... egads.

Anyway, as the Salon article points out, the Chilean so called private system has already had to be modified to address those left out of Pinochet's idea.

If SS had been privatized a couple of years ago, think of the impact the financial crash would have had on the elderly...

332 tradewind  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:53:23pm

re: #325 freetoken
I wouldn't worry about that angle.
Reid probably has the only opponent he could possibly have beaten.
(Which won't be so awful if he returns as Senate minority leader ).//
The Senate's a definite long shot for a changeover, but stranger things have happened.

333 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:55:23pm

re: #331 ShaunP

If SS had been privatized a couple of years ago, think of the impact the financial crash would have had on the elderly...

no sane privatization option fails to guarantee, as a minimum, the benefits paid out to any group of age > X. that's not a reason to oppose higher returns on our money.

334 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:56:47pm

re: #332 tradewind

I wouldn't worry about that angle.
Reid probably has the only opponent he could possibly have beaten.

It's almost supernatural. Did someone make a deal with the devil to get this woman running or something?

335 bratwurst  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:57:04pm

re: #19 rwmofo

Overall Krauthammer is much more reasonable and far less divisive than the President (whose approval rating just fell below the taste of liver-flavored chewing gum).

At this rate, Obama's approval rating will be lower that George W. Bush's...by about 2014 or 2015.

336 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:58:25pm

re: #333 Aceofwhat?

no sane privatization option fails to guarantee, as a minimum, the benefits paid out to any group of age > X. that's not a reason to oppose higher returns on our money.

Precisely. Partial or full privatization proposals include plans to see out the retirements of those either already collecting or set to begin collecting within a certain timeframe.

337 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:59:33pm

re: #335 bratwurst

At this rate, Obama's approval rating will be lower that George W. Bush's...by about 2014 or 2015.

"I gonna smoke 'em out. And then I'm gonna smoke 'em back in again. And then I'm gonna smoke 'em out. And then I'm gonna smoke 'em back in again. Why? Because I can. My approval rating's like a hundred and six percent or something."

I don't even remember whose skit that was.

338 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 2:03:19pm

re: #213 Charles

The real problem here: there really are some Islamic groups that are promoting extremist views. And there really are some mosques that can be legitimately questioned for ties to extremism.

But when the bigots take over the conversation with charges of extremism against Muslims who are NOT extremists, they make it difficult or impossible to have that discussion.

Restated for truth.

339 windsagio  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 2:06:18pm

Didn't read the whole thread, and there's a new one anyways, but just wanted to throw out:

"Many of them are doing it because its 'just politics', and they think its what it takes for their guys to win."

340 Pythagoras  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 2:07:01pm

Since the articles I've seen don't show exactly where the community center will be, I MapQuested the address. It's 2 blocks north of the edge of the WTC Port Authority site but one block from WTC 7, which was off-property. That's closer to some of the buildings than the buildings' former height.

I don't have a dog in this hunt but I think the height of the buildings is, in this case, a fair standard for the distance. That's not much farther. It would take the phrase "In the shadow of" off the table (though it isn't defined this way -- or any other way, really.)

341 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 2:09:18pm

re: #173 crown_of_feathers

Why look someone from the stalker blog! Miss us much guys?

342 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 2:10:06pm

How many socks were made by the class of 2004? Really how many? What kind of people do that?

343 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 2:11:57pm

re: #342 LudwigVanQuixote

How many socks were made by the class of 2004? Really how many? What kind of people do that?

It's weird. It's as though they predicted that some day they would hate the blog as much as they loved it at the time, and would need various routes back in to act out.

344 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 2:16:44pm

re: #343 SanFranciscoZionist

It's weird. It's as though they predicted that some day they would hate the blog as much as they loved it at the time, and would need various routes back in to act out.

Don't laugh, one of the favorite "jokes" back in the days before registration was to log on while a regular was offline (or sometimes even while they were on), adopt a screenname that was the same or close enough that nobody would question it, and post ridiculous or hateful BS while claiming to be the regular.

Trolls especially loved to do it, because they'd then go back to their echo chambers and put up their sock posts as "proof" of just how racist and bigoted we were.

345 Edward Halper  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 2:17:55pm

I think you missed the boat on this one, Charles. A mosque near ground zero is likely to be perceived a symbolic acknowledgment of victory by Islamists and would possibly be a powerful recruitment tool. We need to try to understand the way that they perceive the world if we are going to be effective in defeating Islamism--which is, of course, not Islam. It does not compromise our principles to ask that this mosque be built somewheres else.

The only evidence I have that Islamists intend the mosque to be symbolic is its name. There was a very large mosque in Cordoba, Spain that was converted into a Church when Muslims were expelled from Spain. A portion of it is still used as a Church. The Muslim community recently asked to use another portion as a mosque and was denied. After 9/11, bin Laden wrote a widely publicized letter in which he referred to the need to reconquer Spain for the new Caliphate. I imagine he had the famous Cordoba mosque in mind as proof that Spain is truly an Islamic domain. A mosque in NYC near ground zero that is called "Cordoba" evokes the 9/11 attack and the Islamists intent on retaking Spain. We do not have to pay attention to the symbolism that others attach to their own religious structures, and we should certainly not compromise our principles to prevent others deriving satisfaction from symbols. However, we should prevent the existence of a symbol that will be perceived as a victory and rally for those who are fighting to end freedom of religion.

346 windsagio  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 2:20:14pm

re: #345 Edward Halper

TALKING POINT ALERT!

dolt.

347 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 2:27:47pm

re: #242 Mike DeGuzman

If unemployment continues to climb and bailouts continues the moderates and independents may vote to the right.

Unless the Dems can demonstrate that "the right" is doing next to nothing for them.
Of course, the Dems don't have a good track record either.

348 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 2:29:21pm

re: #345 Edward Halper

Or that we are so strong, we aren't threatened by such displays of tolerance so close to the site of the 9/11 attacks.

This isn't 1930's Europe. "Islamists" need to be recognized and ferreted out, but we do not need to project symbolic strength when we could sneeze and wipe a nation off of the map. Rather, we need to project a calm tolerance that does not make room for extremists so that we continue to attract peaceful, enlightened Muslims to our country and our cause.

349 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 2:31:56pm

re: #345 Edward Halper

A mosque near ground zero is likely to be perceived a symbolic acknowledgment of victory by Islamists and would possibly be a powerful recruitment tool.

You really think people are going to become jihadis because there's a mosque in Lower Manhattan? More than are already becoming jihadis because of the other mosque in Lower Manhattan?

If not, what does 'recruitment tool' mean in this case?

350 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 2:32:49pm

re: #345 Edward Halper

Well, the mosque is part of a larger building that will include nifty things like a swimming pool, culinary kitchen, restaurants, etc. Open to the public even. The structure isn't a super story building with a crescent moon atop, towering over the NYC skyline.

This is America, and feelings such as yours and others don't trump the right of other Americans to associate and worship freely. You and others will need to move beyond this.

351 Food Lion  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 2:41:31pm

it will be a community center open to everyone with a swimming pool

Will the sexes be able to swim together? What about a dress code for the pool? Will Burkinis be mandatory?

352 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 2:47:20pm

re: #351 Food Lion

it will be a community center open to everyone with a swimming pool

Will the sexes be able to swim together? What about a dress code for the pool? Will Burkinis be mandatory?

I'm going to guess that there will be single-sex swimming times, just as there are at my JCC, and mixed-gender swimming times, and that Burkinis will be acceptable but not mandatory.

If you live in Lower Manhattan and would like to check this out further so you can plan on making use of the pool facilities, I suggest contacting the people organizing the project.

353 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 2:50:24pm

re: #351 Food Lion

Why only open to people with swimming pools? And if we already have swimming pools, why would we need to use theirs?

//Just saying..

354 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 2:51:08pm

re: #352 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm going to guess that there will be single-sex swimming times, just as there are at my JCC, and mixed-gender swimming times, and that Burkinis will be acceptable but not mandatory.

If you live in Lower Manhattan and would like to check this out further so you can plan on making use of the pool facilities, I suggest contacting the people organizing the project.

The Manhattan JCC pool schedule.

Please note the ladies only swim hours.

355 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 2:53:47pm

re: #354 SanFranciscoZionist

The Manhattan JCC pool schedule.

Please note the ladies only swim hours.

There's obviously Islamic influence at work there.
///

356 NC Gray  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 2:56:54pm

I am curious, have any of the folks who claim this is a constitutional issue ever tried to build a church? Because it seems to me that this project is being fast tracked in a way that even a Christian church would not be…

In the relatively small suburban southern city where I live it took my church 4 years of planning and nearly $300,000 cost (survey, architectural etc.) before we ever broke ground. After approval came we had to purchase two other parcels of land and make our paved parking area approximately 85% of the size it needed to be for our congregation size.

It never occurred to us complain to the city/county planning board that we were entitled to build where we wanted in the manor that we saw fit.

What I see here relating to the Islamic faith is a large amount of cognitive dissidence related to what Muslims believe regarding the level to which they can impose their believes on other Muslims or non Muslims. I wonder if liberal / progressives simply view issues like this as triangulation (the enemy of my enemy is my friend). And if so if one day we have Sharia law here in the US and women are forced to where burqas and Jews, liberal Christians (conservative Christians will be dead) other faiths have to pay the jizyah, will you guys look back and think the conservatives might have had a point?

357 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:00:17pm

re: #356 NC Gray

I am curious, have any of the folks who claim this is a constitutional issue ever tried to build a church? Because it seems to me that this project is being fast tracked in a way that even a Christian church would not be…

In the relatively small suburban southern city where I live it took my church 4 years of planning and nearly $300,000 cost (survey, architectural etc.) before we ever broke ground. After approval came we had to purchase two other parcels of land and make our paved parking area approximately 85% of the size it needed to be for our congregation size.

It never occurred to us complain to the city/county planning board that we were entitled to build where we wanted in the manor that we saw fit.

What I see here relating to the Islamic faith is a large amount of cognitive dissidence related to what Muslims believe regarding the level to which they can impose their believes on other Muslims or non Muslims. I wonder if liberal / progressives simply view issues like this as triangulation (the enemy of my enemy is my friend). And if so if one day we have Sharia law here in the US and women are forced to where burqas and Jews, liberal Christians (conservative Christians will be dead) other faiths have to pay the jizyah, will you guys look back and think the conservatives might have had a point?

And it all started with the second or third mosque in Lower Manhattan...

Is this project being fast-tracked? How long did it take for them to get to the stage of having their project approved by the zoning commission?

Also, you mean 'cognitive dissonance'. "Cognitive dissidence" would be something else.

358 darthstar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:01:34pm

re: #345 Edward Halper

The only evidence I have that Islamists intend the mosque to be symbolic is its name.

And the only evidence I have that your head is firmly implanted in your sphincter is the sentence above, but it is pretty convincing. You assume that they have some evil purpose, but require evidence that they aren't evil?

Kindly fuck off.

359 Food Lion  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:01:46pm

Why would I want to swim with my own sex only? That kind of defeats any purpose for going to the pool, IMO. I probably won't be visiting this place. Seaside Heights for me!

360 SpaceJesus  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:02:00pm

MEGA MOSQUE

361 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:02:32pm

re: #359 Food Lion

Why would I want to swim with my own sex only? That kind of defeats any purpose for going to the pool, IMO. I probably won't be visiting this place. Seaside Heights for me!

You believe they won't have mixed adult swim? Why?

362 jaunte  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:04:05pm

re: #356 NC Gray


And if so if one day we have Sharia law here in the US and women are forced to where burqas and Jews, liberal Christians (conservative Christians will be dead) other faiths have to pay the jizyah, will you guys look back and think the conservatives might have had a point?


Given the simple difference in numbers (relatively tiny US Muslim population compared to Christian) this sort of imaginative speculation just comes off as paranoia.

363 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:05:59pm

re: #362 jaunte

Given the simple difference in numbers (relatively tiny US Muslim population compared to Christian) this sort of imaginative speculation just comes off as paranoia.


But if it happened, wouldn't it be awful? And wouldn't we feel terrible that we relied on the U.S. Army to protect us, instead of banning all the mosques like the 'conservatives' wanted?

364 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:06:30pm

re: #359 Food Lion

Why would I want to swim with my own sex only? That kind of defeats any purpose for going to the pool, IMO. I probably won't be visiting this place. Seaside Heights for me!

Whatever. Go play in another sandbox already.

365 darthstar  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:08:24pm

re: #356 NC Gray

And if so if one day we have Sharia law here in the US and women are forced to where burqas and Jews, liberal Christians (conservative Christians will be dead) other faiths have to pay the jizyah, will you guys look back and think the conservatives might have had a point?

Shouldn't you be hiding in your basement and hoping for the Rapture?

366 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:10:17pm

re: #356 NC Gray

really? first this, then Sharia law? I mean, we object to the Ten Commandments in a courthouse but we're flirting with scraggly beards and veils here?

Come on.

Christians like you give Christians like me a bad name. Just sayin'.

367 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:10:52pm

re: #359 Food Lion

Why would I want to swim with my own sex only? That kind of defeats any purpose for going to the pool, IMO. I probably won't be visiting this place. Seaside Heights for me!

Really? You go to the pool to pick up women?

dude.

368 jaunte  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:11:08pm

re: #363 SanFranciscoZionist

If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a bicycle. And if Muslim terrorists stole those wheels and made them wear a burka, then we might look back on things and realize someone once had a point, but I'm not sure what it would be.

369 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:11:58pm

re: #357 SanFranciscoZionist

And it all started with the second or third mosque in Lower Manhattan...

Is this project being fast-tracked? How long did it take for them to get to the stage of having their project approved by the zoning commission?

Also, you mean 'cognitive dissonance'. "Cognitive dissidence" would be something else.

well...at least they're correct in saying that you can't just go build in any manor. property rights, you know;)

370 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:12:15pm

re: #368 jaunte

*chortle*

371 NC Gray  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:13:59pm

Thank you for the correction...re: #357 SanFranciscoZionist

372 NC Gray  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:21:52pm

re: #366 Aceofwhat?

I don't know what kind of Christian you are and you certainly don't know what kind of Christian that I am.

I don't really care where they build, but I do understand why it offends. What I don't understand is why when folks ask questions they are not addressed seriously but are instead demonized in way that seems disproportionate to the issue at hand.

373 Food Lion  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:24:31pm

re: #361 SanFranciscoZionist

You believe they won't have mixed adult swim? Why?

Yes, I believe they won't have a mixed adult swim. What would lead you to believe they would?

374 Food Lion  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:27:08pm

re: #367 Aceofwhat?

Really? You go to the pool to pick up women?

dude.

I was being sarcastic. Seaside Heights is not really a place to go for women either. Unless you want a lifetime of memories, if you catch my drift.

375 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:27:39pm

re: #372 NC Gray

I don't know what kind of Christian you are and you certainly don't know what kind of Christian that I am.

I don't really care where they build, but I do understand why it offends. What I don't understand is why when folks ask questions they are not addressed seriously but are instead demonized in way that seems disproportionate to the issue at hand.

I'm a Christian who doesn't see Sharia lurking around every corner.

The question isn't serious, so the response isn't either. I have a difficult time even mapping out the incredible leap that you made from "Muslim community center" to "Sharia law". I mean, it's like pointing at a shrew and saying "watch out, that sucker is about to evolve into a new species of rhinoceros".

Your concern about the 'danger' of the community center is absurd. So i will attempt to steer you to a more serious question. What, exactly, are you afraid of here?

376 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:29:50pm

re: #374 Food Lion

I was being sarcastic. Seaside Heights is not really a place to go for women either. Unless you want a lifetime of memories, if you catch my drift.

Thank heavens.

As to your other question, why would they have mixed-gender swim periods? Because that's what a community center catering to the local community would do.

377 Food Lion  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:33:56pm

re: #376 Aceofwhat?

Thank heavens.

As to your other question, why would they have mixed-gender swim periods? Because that's what a community center catering to the local community would do.

Fair enough. I guess my prejudices will have to be reckoned with. I just don't think "Mixed swim" when I think of a pool at an Islamic community center.

378 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:36:48pm

re: #377 Food Lion

Fair enough. I guess my prejudices will have to be reckoned with. I just don't think "Mixed swim" when I think of a pool at an Islamic community center.

Well, just like any religiously-funded community center, if you get too churchy, no one wants to play. The age-old rules of getting people to come through your doors still apply!

379 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:38:37pm

re: #356 NC Gray

What I see here relating to the Islamic faith is a large amount of cognitive dissidence related to what Muslims believe regarding the level to which they can impose their believes on other Muslims or non Muslims. I wonder if liberal / progressives simply view issues like this as triangulation (the enemy of my enemy is my friend). And if so if one day we have Sharia law here in the US and women are forced to where burqas and Jews, liberal Christians (conservative Christians will be dead) other faiths have to pay the jizyah, will you guys look back and think the conservatives might have had a point?

Shucks, Li'l Abner, ah thanks yew may have a point there.

No, no. Right there, on top of yewr hayed.

Seriously - why would all the conservative Christians be dead? Mass suicide? Or can Moooslims tell a conservative from a liberal Christian on sight? And mightn't they keep a few conservative Christians around, you know, as pets, or in zoos, or just to increase the jizyah revenues?

Pinhead.

380 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:41:20pm

I knew I'd find a Rotating Title in there.

women are forced to where burqas and Jews
381 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:42:11pm

re: #372 NC Gray

I don't know what kind of Christian you are and you certainly don't know what kind of Christian that I am.

Just as a hypothesis, I'm guessin' you're the kind of Christian who wasn't burdened with an overabundance of schoolin'.

382 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:44:06pm

re: #372 NC Gray

I don't know what kind of Christian you are and you certainly don't know what kind of Christian that I am.

I don't really care where they build, but I do understand why it offends. What I don't understand is why when folks ask questions they are not addressed seriously but are instead demonized in way that seems disproportionate to the issue at hand.

The issue has been smacked around a lot already here. Everything has been dissected and turned over and scrutinized. When the same talking points are repeated, well, sometimes it's a challenge to resort to serious responses late in the game. Look at it this way though, if you stick around LGF long enough, you'll develop a thick outer shell with the ability to respond with witty smack backs. Or something.

383 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:47:06pm

re: #382 eclectic infidel

The issue has been smacked around a lot already here. Everything has been dissected and turned over and scrutinized. When the same talking points are repeated, well, sometimes it's a challenge to resort to provide serious responses (late in the game). Look at it this way though, if you stick around LGF long enough, you'll develop a thick outer shell with the ability to respond with witty smack backs. Or something.


PIMF

384 Edward Halper  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:51:54pm

re: #349 SanFranciscoZionist

You really think people are going to become jihadis because there's a mosque in Lower Manhattan?

I do. There's a very different way of thinking in the Islamic world. Too many people here in the US think that everyone is alike. Try reading some works by Muslim scholars. Try talking to some American Muslims who are recent immigrants.

The issue here is not tolerance. We have freedom of religion, and it's a basic pillar of American life. This is not going to change. It is important to respect the rights of Muslims to worship as they choose. It is also important that the building of a mosque not be used as symbol against America's ideals. We are not compromising freedom of religion by asking that the mosque be located elsewhere.

385 windsagio  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:52:44pm

re: #384 Edward Halper

"the slaves think differently than us, that's why its better to keep them in bondage!"

386 NC Gray  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:53:54pm

re: #379 Cato the Elder

ur clever

387 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:53:57pm

re: #367 Aceofwhat?

How did we get back to the Eric Cantor thread?

388 jaunte  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:54:20pm

re: #384 Edward Halper

We are not compromising freedom of religion by asking that the mosque be located elsewhere.


Asking that it be located elsewhere is discrimination against a small class of Americans based on a fear that something might happen.

389 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:54:42pm

re: #384 Edward Halper

I do. There's a very different way of thinking in the Islamic world. Too many people here in the US think that everyone is all Muslims are alike.

FTFY.

Try reading some works by Muslim scholars.

Who do you recommend?

390 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:55:41pm

re: #384 Edward Halper

We are not compromising freedom of religion by asking that the mosque be located elsewhere.

Such as in Staten Island Long Island Sheboygan Murfreesboro - scratch all those places. They're protesting mosques there, too.

Where would you like to see one built that would be a good compromise between the constitution and your paranoia?

391 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:57:02pm

re: #386 NC Gray

ur clever

ur welkum

392 NC Gray  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 3:59:38pm

re: #391 Cato the Elder

anytime

393 Reginald Perrin  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 4:01:51pm

re: #384 Edward Halper


Another sleeper, gee what a surprise.

394 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 4:02:31pm

re: #384 Edward Halper

. It is also important that the building of a mosque not be used as symbol against America's ideals. We are not compromising freedom of religion by asking that the mosque be located elsewhere.

Gah. Or our refusal to permit the mosque could be used as a symbol against America's ideals. Teh crazee, including Islamic crazee, are going to want to kill us anyway. Therefore, we might as well stick to our principles insofar as they do not jeopardize our safety, and in this case, it doesn't. I can't think of a worse place for a Muslim to misbehave than NYC...New Yorkers aren't exactly slow to throw a punch.

395 Edward Halper  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 4:03:42pm

re: #350 eclectic infidel

This is America, and feelings such as yours and others don't trump the right of other Americans to associate and worship freely. You and others will need to move beyond this.

Where did I say or even suggest that Muslims do not have the right to worship freely? It is not about feelings. It is about allowing a symbol to arise.

After 9/11 one of the Saudi nobles came to NYC to donate a million dollars for repairs. At the ceremony, he condemned the attack but then added that he understood the attacker's anger at the US because he, too, opposed our foreign policy. Giuliani, who was then mayor, refused to accept the gift. One of the best things Giuliani ever did. Had he accepted the gift, it would have been interpreted in the Arab world--even if not in the US-- as a humiliating agreement that American foreign policy justified the attack. This is the kind of symbolism we risk with the mosque.

Once upon a time, I studied with Hans Morgenthau. I didn't agree with him at the time. I've come to think otherwise: symbols can be important.

396 Gus  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 4:04:11pm

re: #389 wrenchwench

FTFY.

Who do you recommend?

Robert Spencer

///

397 lostlakehiker  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 4:06:28pm

re: #356 NC Gray

I am curious, have any of the folks who claim this is a constitutional issue ever tried to build a church? Because it seems to me that this project is being fast tracked in a way that even a Christian church would not be…

In the relatively small suburban southern city where I live it took my church 4 years of planning and nearly $300,000 cost (survey, architectural etc.) before we ever broke ground. After approval came we had to purchase two other parcels of land and make our paved parking area approximately 85% of the size it needed to be for our congregation size.

It never occurred to us complain to the city/county planning board that we were entitled to build where we wanted in the manor that we saw fit.

What I see here relating to the Islamic faith is a large amount of cognitive dissidence related to what Muslims believe regarding the level to which they can impose their believes on other Muslims or non Muslims. I wonder if liberal / progressives simply view issues like this as triangulation (the enemy of my enemy is my friend). And if so if one day we have Sharia law here in the US and women are forced to where burqas and Jews, liberal Christians (conservative Christians will be dead) other faiths have to pay the jizyah, will you guys look back and think the conservatives might have had a point?

If conservatives are ever to have a point, it has to be a reality-based point. Liberals absolutely have the high ground when it comes to wanting a better world. The only objection that can be raised is that wishing something true doesn't make it so, and that liberal wish-lists have repeatedly gone terribly awry.

Your scenario is implausible. How will a nation that is, apart from trace ingredients, a mix of resolute adherents to faiths other than Islam, and liberals who rate freedom highly and religion as suspect, embrace Islam? Neither of our two major camps has core beliefs that are compatible with that.

Supposing we go ahead with our old plan, the one we've had all along, to let religions recruit by any means short of kidnapping and brainwashing. Suppose Saudi Arabia funds the establishment of mighty mosques at the heart of all our cities, as well as recruitment drives in prisons, shopping centers, and county fairs. So what? The Muslim recruiter in the U.S. is tilling stony ground. The fanatical Islamist Muslim recruiter is trying to grow canteloupes in Death Valley.

The prospect of Sharia law in the U.S., along with mass execution of conservative Christians, is just not realistic. It even ignores the doctrinal point that if somehow Islam came to mastery, conservative Christians would be more tolerable to our hypothetical new masters than would liberal Christians, much less liberal atheists.

398 windsagio  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 4:09:32pm

re: #397 lostlakehiker

'and religion as suspect'?

As a religious leftie I find that comment unpleasant.

399 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 4:10:45pm

re: #384 Edward Halper

Okay, then where exactly do you want the proposed building to be moved too? Because right now, any potential Mosque construction is being protested. Are you willing to condemn those protests, or are you just another person who thinks all Muslims should pay for the actions of a few? I've gotten fed up with the stuff Muslims in the US are being put through. Murfeesboro, Temecula, and so many other places are examples.

400 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 4:12:08pm

re: #398 windsagio

I agree with you on that point.

401 lostlakehiker  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 4:16:41pm

re: #398 windsagio

'and religion as suspect'?

As a religious leftie I find that comment unpleasant.

Consider yourself part of the first group then. It's set theory. You have set A, set B, and set C. A is all firm adherents to some faith other than Islam. B is all those who consider religion suspect, and who are liberal. C is the rest. Like me---conservative, don't consider religion suspect, but not a believer. I don't offend myself by placing myself in the trace-ingredients category, and I hope I don't offend you by letting you decide which group you fit: A, B, or C.

402 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 4:17:37pm
"And if so if one day we have Sharia law here in the US and women are forced to where burqas and Jews, liberal Christians (conservative Christians will be dead) other faiths have to pay the jizyah, will you guys look back and think the conservatives might have had a point?"

And if so if one day we are ruled by $cientology here in the US and women are forced to where Prada and Jews, liberal Christians (conservative Christians will join the cult, 'cuz they like money and are all, like, conservative and shit) other faiths have to pay the regular E-meter auditing rates instead of getting a discount, will you guys look back and think the anti-$cientologists might have had a point?

403 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 4:18:51pm

re: #402 Cato the Elder

that "where" hurt, didn't it...i know i winced

404 mikhailtheplumber  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 4:25:39pm

re: #390 Cato the Elder

Such as in Staten Island Long Island Sheboygan Murfreesboro - scratch all those places. They're protesting mosques there, too.

Where would you like to see one built that would be a good compromise between the constitution and your paranoia?

Maybe Alcatraz? I'm pretty sure the paranoid right-wingers would approve, if we were to turn the power of the electric wires back on.
//

405 Edward Halper  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 4:32:08pm

re: #399 ProLifeLiberal

Okay, then where exactly do you want the proposed building to be moved too?

The governor of NY has suggested Brooklyn, if I'm remembering correctly. There are plenty of other areas on Manhattan, and many of them make more sense because they have Muslim communities.

The issue is not about the rights of Muslims, and everyone else, to worship. That's why I think Charles has missed the boat on this issue. It's not right to lump the anti-ground zero mosque folks with the anti-Muslim folks. In fact, lumping it's just the sort of thing Charles has been complaining about others doing--I mean lumping together Islamists and Muslims as if all Muslims were Islamists.

406 webevintage  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 4:34:16pm

re: #356 NC Gray

And if so if one day we have Sharia law here in the US and women are forced to where burqas and Jews, liberal Christians (conservative Christians will be dead) other faiths have to pay the jizyah, will you guys look back and think the conservatives might have had a point?

You know what asshole...I am a lot more concerned with the religous rightwing Theocrats taking over then I am worried about mooslims coming here and killing "conservative" Christians and instituting sharia law.

407 lostlakehiker  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 4:34:34pm

re: #228 Fozzie Bear

Once we started discarding parts of the constitution in order to fight the GWOT, the slide into this madness began. None of this is new, per se, it's just that it's getting particularly ugly of late. I'm speaking specifically of the torture memos, National Security Letters, suspending habeus corpus in terrorism cases, etc.

The sooner people realize that terrorism is and always was a law enforcement issue, and a massive one, domestically, the sooner we can begin to wind back the crazy. I don't think people are prepared to to go there yet, sadly. People tried to say it, be they were angrily rebuked soon after 9/11. OBL knew that we would abandon our principles and mire ourselves in a crippling conflict. We reacted exactly as he wanted us to. He won. And he even got away with it. It SUCKS, but it is true.

Just because the scale of the crime is massive, and the damage catastrophic, doesn't mean that we should have ever even considered weakening constitutional protections for the accused. It doesn't mean we should have declared an unwinnable war (you can't win when there are no definable terms of victory) on an ideology, rather than targeted those places which harbor training camps for terrorists specifically.

We went into Iraq, as part of the GWOT. Iraq was not part of the problem. The problem is that our intelligence agencies had fallen into disarray. The problem is and always was that you simply cannot always prevent people who don't care if they survive the effort from doing terrible things. The problem is that we substituted revenge for mourning, as a country. The problem is that we labeled states as enemies after being attacked by stateless entities.

I expect I will be downdinged mercilessly for saying this, but it bears repeating. The source of this insanity is that we abandoned due process years ago as regards terrorism. We abandoned our own principles and the Geneva Conventions. Krauthammer, Yoo, etc, were instrumental in this.

What makes anyone think they would somehow re-embrace the principles that they abandoned years ago when it comes to this issue?

You got a lot of updings. Rejoice. But the whole point of war, as opposed to criminal justice, is that in fact you cannot prevent kamikaze attacks by putting the death penalty on the crime.

Such attacks are not primarily crimes, though as violations of the law of war they are also crimes. They are primarily war.

Conversely, persons who are actively waging war against us, but are pretending to be civilians going about their lawful business, have no standing under the Geneva conventions. International law instead says that the lives of spies and saboteurs are forfeit, if the nation capturing them is not inclined to go easy or make a trade.

Roosevelt had a bunch of German spies tried before a military court, taking the matter out of the hands of the civilian courts with their unwarranted and prissy [under the circumstances] protections and rights. The guys were given a swift trial, but not kangaroo style. The evidence was good, they were convicted, and executed. Roosevelt had it right.

If we have not summarily executed those implicated in 9-11 who escaped an immediate fiery death, it is not because the law stayed our hand. It is because we wanted to know what they might be able to tell us. And if we used forceful interrogation, well, there is nothing in our laws, or in international law, that bans loud music, hard cold floors, bad food, or bright lights during questioning. Those guys are not civilians, not POWs, but saboteurs.

408 webevintage  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 4:37:01pm

re: #405 Edward Halper


The issue is not about the rights of Muslims, and everyone else, to worship. That's why I think Charles has missed the boat on this issue. It's not right to lump the anti-ground zero mosque folks with the anti-Muslim folks. In fact, lumping it's just the sort of thing Charles has been complaining about others doing--I mean lumping together Islamists and Muslims as if all Muslims were Islamists.

BUT besides being anti-Muslim there is no realistic reason to be against the "community center with a prayer room that is 2 blocks from ground zero" and willing to say "in this case fuck the bill of rights".

409 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 4:42:26pm

re: #395 Edward Halper

Yes. It is about a symbol of the sort of Islam that we WILL tolerate, as opposed to the backasswards, medieval thing that many practice in the land of Saud.

410 MittDoesNotCompute  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 4:58:55pm

re: #405 Edward Halper

The governor of NY has suggested Brooklyn, if I'm remembering correctly. There are plenty of other areas on Manhattan, and many of them make more sense because they have Muslim communities.

The issue is not about the rights of Muslims, and everyone else, to worship. That's why I think Charles has missed the boat on this issue. It's not right to lump the anti-ground zero mosque folks with the anti-Muslim folks. In fact, lumping it's just the sort of thing Charles has been complaining about others doing--I mean lumping together Islamists and Muslims as if all Muslims were Islamists.

All hail the Sacred Bubble of Ground Zero...that apparently stretches for blocks around the WTC site. If you and the other anti-Cordoba House/Park51 folks were honest about not have a "mosque" defile the general area of Ground Zero, you'd have to also ban all commercial activities from the area and turn it into a park, not build another WTC on the site to try to carry on as before. But with Wall Street right there and all of the existing businesses there on Lower Manhattan, the "no commercial zone" idea would never happen, not with such prime real estate.

So, just come out and say it...you and others who think like you do don't want Cordoba House/Park51 in its planned location precisely because it contains a mosque (in addition to its other planned spaces). Would you have the same objections if a Christian church or Jewish synagogue wanted to build something similar in the same spot?

In my opinion, the people who are pissing on the memory of those lost on 9/11 are those who are trying to block this project, because innocent people of all faiths, colors, and creeds died that day...nobody has a monopoly on what happened that day.

411 palomino  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 5:17:40pm

re: #19 rwmofo

Overall Krauthammer is much more reasonable and far less divisive than the President (whose approval rating just fell below the taste of liver-flavored chewing gum).

Are you a member of the Quayle family? Obama's relatively anemic approval rating is still higher at this point than either Cliton's or Reagan's at this point in their presidencies. And it's TWICE what Bush's was for the last two years of his presidency.

But don't let me put a damper on your hard-on with facts. "Obama. Worst. President. Ever."

412 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 5:24:00pm

re: #405 Edward Halper

The governor of NY has suggested Brooklyn, if I'm remembering correctly.

The Gov is a putz whose only Gov because the previous philandering putz got caught and had to leave office. The man is so unpopular that Obama personally asked him not to run for a full term, because the man had (at the time) the worst popularity rating of a New York governor ever.

There are plenty of other areas on Manhattan, and many of them make more sense because they have Muslim communities.

There's churches and synagogues within spitting distance of Ground Zero, should they also be moved to places that "make more sense"?

The issue is not about the rights of Muslims, and everyone else, to worship.

Isn't it? Telling them where they can and can't worship, in this case blocks away from Ground Zero, is not a violation of their rights?

That's why I think Charles has missed the boat on this issue.

God, how many times have we heard words to this effect? "Charles doesn't get it" or "Charles don't realize" or "Charles has missed the boat." Let me tell you something, sparky, in my years here, I have never seen Charles take a position without first reviewing all the facts. He has shone a light on numerous cases of mosques being used to push jihadist ideology and has called to account various persons and organizations with such goals in mind. If there was any argument against Cordoba House that did not smack of naked bigotry, I have little doubt he'd be "on the boat."

It's not right to lump the anti-ground zero mosque folks with the anti-Muslim folks. In fact, lumping it's just the sort of thing Charles has been complaining about others doing--I mean lumping together Islamists and Muslims as if all Muslims were Islamists.

Except that is exactly the sort of bullshit that is being done by the movers and shakers in the "anti-ground zero mosque" ranks, speaking out against the construction because they see "Islamists" everywhere. If you're not speaking out against the bigots, then you are condoning them or are one of them. There is no middle ground, there are no "Good Germans."

413 Cineaste  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 5:24:04pm

re: #233 tradewind

Many people were, and are so marked by the trauma of that day that... regardless of measured distances or other statistics re the location... they cannot imagine this building as an acceptable part of what to them is an area to be revered.

That may be but there are two points in rebuttal:

1) Most of those people don't live anywhere near the "area to be revered". To whit, a majority of residents of Manhattan support the Park 51 project.

2) Our society should not be putting religious tolerance up to a popular vote. That's not how this works. Emotional reactions should be trumped by reason, intellect and the rule of law otherwise we become little more than a pitchfork wielding mob turning on anyone we view as a scapegoat. That is the seeds of discontent that led to things like Kristallnacht.**

**Note: I am not equating opposition to Park 51 with Naziism. I am pointing out what happens when society builds it's behavior around emotions and scapegoating religious or ethnic minorities.

414 Cineaste  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 5:25:08pm

re: #405 Edward Halper

The governor of NY has suggested Brooklyn, if I'm remembering correctly. There are plenty of other areas on Manhattan, and many of them make more sense because they have Muslim communities.

The issue is not about the rights of Muslims, and everyone else, to worship. That's why I think Charles has missed the boat on this issue. It's not right to lump the anti-ground zero mosque folks with the anti-Muslim folks. In fact, lumping it's just the sort of thing Charles has been complaining about others doing--I mean lumping together Islamists and Muslims as if all Muslims were Islamists.

Just out of curiosity. There is another mosque that has been there for 30 years in the same neighborhood. Should we ask them to move too?

415 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 5:25:26pm

You know...if the planned "mosque" were to be all mosquey and shit, with minarets, domes, a fantastic set of gardens watered by ingenious 14th-century plumbing and all, plus a blaring muezzin speaker system calling the faithful to prayer five times a day...I might think it was a slap in the face, too.

But it's not. When you walk by the completed building, the only thing to tip you off that there might be a prayer space inside will be a bunch of guys wearing oversized kippahs. Some people get nervous the first time they see a gaggle of hitl-wearing Jews outside an otherwise unidentifiable synagogue, but that's their problem.

This will be just another renovated 13-storey building in New York.

One out of maybe 1,200 mosques in the entire country. So get over it, schmucks.

416 Cineaste  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 5:40:14pm

re: #415 Cato the Elder

Cato, you fool, you didn't hear about the original name for the project before it was renamed "Cordoba House"? It was originally called the "We RulZ! Nine-Elevin 4 EVA! Mosque and Jihadi Recruitment Center".

/

417 Decider  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 5:45:16pm

You give Krauthammer far too much credit. He is little more than Sean Hannity without the over the top jingoism. Nothing more. Nothing less. That is why he is on Fox News.

418 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 5:47:11pm

re: #359 Food Lion

Why would I want to swim with my own sex only? That kind of defeats any purpose for going to the pool, IMO. I probably won't be visiting this place. Seaside Heights for me!

My health club is women only.
So there are only women in and around the swimming pool.
And it's a regular secular fitness center, not an Islamic Community Center.
And you know what?
We like the privacy.
Because it allows us to swim for exercise. Which sort if IS the point of swimming; ogling is sort of NOT.

419 joest73  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 5:59:35pm

re: #417 Decider

You give Krauthammer far too much credit. He is little more than Sean Hannity without the over the top jingoism. Nothing more. Nothing less. That is why he is on Fox News.

I disagree. That would be like saying Paul Krugman is nothing more than Ed Schultz.......

420 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 6:01:24pm

re: #373 Food Lion

Yes, I believe they won't have a mixed adult swim. What would lead you to believe they would?

They're trying to get the residents of Lower Manhattan to use their fitness center. That's why.

421 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 6:02:17pm

re: #375 Aceofwhat?

I mean, it's like pointing at a shrew and saying "watch out, that sucker is about to evolve into a new species of rhinoceros".

But if it did, and then trampled you into a bloody pulp, wouldn't you wish you'd paid attention to the warnings?

422 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 6:06:21pm

re: #421 SanFranciscoZionist

But if it did, and then trampled you into a bloody pulp, wouldn't you wish you'd paid attention to the warnings?

ironic, because i was about to return with proof of evolution that would have boggled even the creationists...and then splat. all because i didn't heed the warnings!

423 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 6:06:31pm

re: #421 SanFranciscoZionist

High-larious!

424 joest73  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 6:21:40pm

re: #413 Cineaste


1) Most of those people don't live anywhere near the "area to be revered". To whit, a majority of residents of Manhattan support the Park 51 project.

I personally don't care if the community center is near ground zero. We have bigger problems in this country than this.

Rasmussen did a poll back in 2007 that found that 35% of Democrats believe that Bush knew about the 9/11 attacks in advance. I wonder what the percentage of Manhattanites still think Bush knew about 9/11 in advance? I wouldn't be surprised to see a flip in the numbers just like the recent poll that shows Manhattanites overwhelmingly support Park 51.

425 Cineaste  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 6:37:32pm

re: #424 joest73

I personally don't care if the community center is near ground zero. We have bigger problems in this country than this.

Rasmussen did a poll back in 2007 that found that 35% of Democrats believe that Bush knew about the 9/11 attacks in advance. I wonder what the percentage of Manhattanites still think Bush knew about 9/11 in advance? I wouldn't be surprised to see a flip in the numbers just like the recent poll that shows Manhattanites overwhelmingly support Park 51.

So you're saying saying that because a minority of Democrats believed something moronic in 2007 that that has a parallel with a majority of Republicans believing something moronic in 2010?

426 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 6:41:20pm

re: #424 joest73

i heard that in 1649, 57% of the folks living in the general area of Massachusetts believed in witches. So i wouldn't be surprised about what you're not surprised about either.

427 dbe928  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:02:28pm

I disagree with you about Krauthammer and the ground zero mosque controversy. It's not a right-wing thing. It's a symbolism thing.
We're talking about a larger issue involving perception, religion, and a cultural clash; to look at it as a simple zoning rights issue is to belittle the importance of the Islamist supremacists' quest for symbolic as well as physical victories over the secular, infidel West.
Krauthammer has it right, I submit:

Location matters. Especially this location. Ground Zero is the site of the greatest mass murder in American history — perpetrated by Muslims of a particular Islamist orthodoxy in whose cause they died and in whose name they killed.

Of course that strain represents only a minority of Muslims. Islam is no more intrinsically Islamist than present-day Germany is Nazi — yet despite contemporary Germany’s innocence, no German of good will would even think of proposing a German cultural center at, say, Treblinka.

Which makes you wonder about the good will behind Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf’s proposal. This is a man who has called U.S. policy “an accessory to the crime” of 9/11 and, when recently asked whether Hamas is a terrorist organization, replied, “I’m not a politician. . . . The issue of terrorism is a very complex question.”

America is a free country where you can build whatever you want — but not anywhere. That’s why we have zoning laws. No liquor store near a school, no strip malls where they offend local sensibilities, and, if your house doesn’t meet community architectural codes, you cannot build at all.

These restrictions are for reasons of aesthetics. Others are for more profound reasons of common decency and respect for the sacred. No commercial tower over Gettysburg, no convent at Auschwitz — and no mosque at Ground Zero.

Build it anywhere but there.

The governor of New York offered to help find land to build the mosque elsewhere. A mosque really seeking to build bridges, Rauf’s ostensible hope for the structure, would accept the offer.

428 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:08:39pm

re: #424 joest73

I personally don't care if the community center is near ground zero. We have bigger problems in this country than this.

Rasmussen did a poll back in 2007 that found that 35% of Democrats believe that Bush knew about the 9/11 attacks in advance. I wonder what the percentage of Manhattanites still think Bush knew about 9/11 in advance? I wouldn't be surprised to see a flip in the numbers just like the recent poll that shows Manhattanites overwhelmingly support Park 51.

Your point eludes me. Do you mean to show that people in Manhattan can believe false things?

429 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:08:59pm

re: #427 dbe928

I disagree with you about Krauthammer and the ground zero mosque controversy. It's not a right-wing thing. It's a symbolism thing.
We're talking about a larger issue involving perception, religion, and a cultural clash; to look at it as a simple zoning rights issue is to belittle the importance of the Islamist supremacists' quest for symbolic as well as physical victories over the secular, infidel West.
Krauthammer has it right, I submit:

And what greater symbolism would there be for how tolerant and cultured America is over the sort of jihadist shitholes that OBL and his ilk thrive in than to construct a community center that contains a mosque where peace and togetherness are preached instead of hatred and war? You think OBL will consider it a "victory" if we move past the pain and anger over 9/11 and open a dialogue aimed towards strengthening our ties rather than widening the gulf?

430 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:09:33pm

re: #427 dbe928

I disagree with you about Krauthammer and the ground zero mosque controversy. It's not a right-wing thing. It's a symbolism thing.
We're talking about a larger issue involving perception, religion, and a cultural clash; to look at it as a simple zoning rights issue is to belittle the importance of the Islamist supremacists' quest for symbolic as well as physical victories over the secular, infidel West.
Krauthammer has it right, I submit:

Has MEMRI or anyone come up with a single example of this mosque being used as a symbol or rallying issue among jihadim?

431 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:09:40pm

re: #427 dbe928

covered this already. #409

432 webevintage  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:10:58pm

re: #427 dbe928

I disagree with you about Krauthammer and the ground zero mosque controversy. It's not a right-wing thing. It's a symbolism thing.
We're talking about a larger issue involving perception, religion, and a cultural clash; to look at it as a simple zoning rights issue is to belittle the importance of the Islamist supremacists' quest for symbolic as well as physical victories over the secular, infidel West.
Krauthammer has it right, I submit:

Except no one cares about the "symbolism" except for the folks who have a problem with the "community center near ground zero with a scary mooslim prayer room in it".

433 crown_of_feathers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:35:02pm

re: #427 dbe928

Give it up, my friend.

LGF has, as we used to say back in the LGF day, "jumped the shark".

God forbid you try to make a distinction between "We're going to PREVENT YOU from building a mosque (because we're RETHUGLICANS and don't care about NO CONSTEETUTION!)" and "My Islamic friends, don't you think it MIGHT POSSIBLY be more sensitive to the memory of dead Americans to put your center a little bit further away from where your co-religionists MURDERED THEM???????"

But that's too FREAKING DIFFICULT for Charles and the MORON CREW that populate LGF nowadays to work out, isn't it?

Isn't it, Charles???

By the way (last comment before being banned): I'll take Robert Spencer, David Horowitz, and Charles Krauthammer over this LGF crew of a-holes ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!

434 Gus  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:42:01pm

re: #433 crown_of_feathers

So long Cletus. You will not be missed.

435 webevintage  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:42:42pm

re: #433 crown_of_feathers

Give it up, my friend.

LGF has, as we used to say back in the LGF day, "jumped the shark".

This is funnier in LOL:

GIV IT UP, MAH FREND.

LGF HAS, AS WE USD 2 SAY BAK IN DA LGF DAI, "JUMPD TEH SHARK".

CEILIN CAT FORBID U TRY 2 MAK DISTINCSHUN TWEEN "WERE GOIN 2 PREVENT U FRUM BUILDIN MOSQUE (CUZ WERE RETHUGLICANZ AN DOAN CARE BOUT NO CONSTEETUSHUN!)" AN "MAH ISLAMIC FRENZ, DOAN U FINKZ IT MITE POSIBLY BE MOAR SENSITIV 2 TEH MEMS OV DED AMERICANZ 2 PUT UR SENTR LIL BIT FURTHR AWAY FRUM WER UR CO-RELIGIONISTS MURDERD THEM???"

BUT THAZ 2 FREAKIN DIFFICULT 4 CHARLEZ AN TEH MORON CREW DAT POPULATE LGF NOWADAIS 2 WERK OUT, ISNT IT?

ISNT IT, CHARLEZ???

BY TEH WAI (LAST COMMENT BEFORE BEAN BANND): ILL TAEK ROBERT SPENCR, DAVID HOROWITZ, AN CHARLEZ KRAUTHAMMR OVAR DIS LGF CREW OV A-HOLEZ ANY DAI OV TEH WEEK!

436 dbe928  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:44:21pm

There are a couple of important issues here; first, what makes people think peace and togetherness would be preached here? Because this Imam said so? Look at what Clifford May wrote:

It’s hardly a secret that some mosques in America, Europe, and the Middle East are centers of extremism. As former federal prosecutor Andrew McCarthy has chronicled, the Dar al-Hijrah Islamic Center and mosque in Falls Church, Va., a suburb of Washington, D.C., has provided a pulpit for several radical imams, including Anwar al-Awlaki, the al-Qaeda terrorist now hiding out in Yemen. Among those Awlaki is said to have inspired: Farouk Abdulmutallab, who tried to blow up a plane on Christmas, Fort Hood massacre suspect Nidal Hasan, and at least two of the 9/11 hijackers.

Terrorists who would go on to take part in the 9/11 attacks also made their base at the King Fahd Mosque in Los Angeles. As Nina Shea has noted, “the mosque’s imam, Fahad al Thumairy, a former Saudi diplomat, was finally expelled by the U.S. in 2003 for suspected terror connections.”

The Al Farouq mosque in Brooklyn is where Omar Abdel Rahman, the Blind Sheikh, delivered sermons. Andy McCarthy eventually sent him to prison in connection with the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.

And just this week, as my colleague Ben Weinthal reported, German authorities banned the Masjid Taiba mosque of Hamburg. It had been a launching pad for the 9/11 terror attacks and “had long served as a hotbed for training jihadists and stoking anti-Western ideology.”

These are just a few, maybe not representative examples, but look at the imam involved:

In his Newsweek column, Zakaria asserts that Rauf “is a moderate Muslim clergyman. He has said one or two things about American foreign policy that strike me as overly critical — but it’s stuff you could read on The Huffington Post any day.”
Among Rauf’s Huffingtonian statements: that American policy was “an accessory to the crime” of 9/11, and that Osama bin Laden was “made in America.”

Rauf will not say whether he views Hamas — which intentionally slaughters civilians, has been designated as a terrorist organization by the U.S. government, and advocates the extermination of both Israelis and Jews — as a terrorist organization.

He explains his reticence by saying that “the issue of terrorism is a very complex question.” No, actually, it’s quite simple: Whatever your grievances, you do not express them by murdering other people’s children. Not accepting that proposition does not make you a terrorist. But it disqualifies you as an anti-terrorist and identifies you as an anti-anti-terrorist.

437 Mr Pancakes  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:45:19pm

re: #433 crown_of_feathers

Give it up, my friend.

LGF has, as we used to say back in the LGF day, "jumped the shark".

God forbid you try to make a distinction between "We're going to PREVENT YOU from building a mosque (because we're RETHUGLICANS and don't care about NO CONSTEETUTION!)" and "My Islamic friends, don't you think it MIGHT POSSIBLY be more sensitive to the memory of dead Americans to put your center a little bit further away from where your co-religionists MURDERED THEM???"

But that's too FREAKING DIFFICULT for Charles and the MORON CREW that populate LGF nowadays to work out, isn't it?

Isn't it, Charles???

By the way (last comment before being banned): I'll take Robert Spencer, David Horowitz, and Charles Krauthammer over this LGF crew of a-holes ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!

You are a waste of flesh. You have no rhythm. You are ridiculous and
obnoxious. You are the moral equivalent of a leech. You are a living
emptiness, a meaningless void. You are sour and senile. You are a disease,
you puerile one-handed slack-jawed drooling meatslapper.

438 webevintage  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:46:40pm

re: #436 dbe928

There are a couple of important issues here; first, what makes people think peace and togetherness would be preached here? Because this Imam said so?

Look, how do I know that peace and togetherness are being preached at my local Evangelical church? Because the Preacher says so?

439 crown_of_feathers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:46:57pm

re: #434 Gus 802

"So long Cletus"

Thanks, lemming.

440 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:47:12pm

re: #433 crown_of_feathers

i love it when people insult themselves. saves me the trouble.

441 tnguitarist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:48:18pm

re: #439 crown_of_feathers

"So long Cletus"

Thanks, lemming.

It really must be depressing to live in such an angry world.

442 dbe928  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:50:07pm

re: #438 webevintage

Any reporter can go into your evangelical church and write a story about the Sunday sermon. If the guy is telling people to kill unbelievers, it will probably get in the paper. How many reporters can go into mosques and understand Arabic? And how many would be allowed in when hate is being preached or plots hatched?

443 Gus  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:50:24pm

re: #439 crown_of_feathers

Right. I'm a lemming. This coming from a guy that's marching in goose lock step with the American far-right.

444 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:50:56pm

re: #433 crown_of_feathers

Give it up, my friend.

LGF has, as we used to say back in the LGF day, "jumped the shark".

God forbid you try to make a distinction between "We're going to PREVENT YOU from building a mosque (because we're RETHUGLICANS and don't care about NO CONSTEETUTION!)" and "My Islamic friends, don't you think it MIGHT POSSIBLY be more sensitive to the memory of dead Americans to put your center a little bit further away from where your co-religionists MURDERED THEM???"

But that's too FREAKING DIFFICULT for Charles and the MORON CREW that populate LGF nowadays to work out, isn't it?

Isn't it, Charles???

By the way (last comment before being banned): I'll take Robert Spencer, David Horowitz, and Charles Krauthammer over this LGF crew of a-holes ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!

I can now see why the old guard have such a bad reputation here. So many amongst the ranks still believe the old myth that there is no such thing as a "moderate Muslim" and want to believe that every one of them has some sort of agenda, either openly or secretly. Obviously there was no great loss in seeing the vast majority of you dipshits shuffled off to your echo chambers of choice.

When you get to whichever stalker blog and circle jerk you've chosen to take part in, tell them I said "Go frak yourselves."

445 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:52:36pm

re: #442 dbe928

Any reporter can go into your evangelical church and write a story about the Sunday sermon. If the guy is telling people to kill unbelievers, it will probably get in the paper. How many reporters can go into mosques and understand Arabic? And how many would be allowed in when hate is being preached or plots hatched?

You're seeing a whole team of psychiatrists, aren't you? You must be if you're seeing jihadists everywhere.

446 tnguitarist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:53:08pm

re: #442 dbe928

Any reporter can go into your evangelical church and write a story about the Sunday sermon. If the guy is telling people to kill unbelievers, it will probably get in the paper. How many reporters can go into mosques and understand Arabic? And how many would be allowed in when hate is being preached or plots hatched?

Or, an Arabic speaking reporter could go in there. Or one of the translators fired from the military for being gay. They have some free time.

447 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:54:03pm

re: #439 crown_of_feathers

is it an apostate or an impostor...did it abandon good principles, or simply lack them from the beginning? i could drive a buick through your posts without bumping into a mote of meaning.

448 webevintage  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:54:06pm

re: #442 dbe928

Any reporter can go into your evangelical church and write a story about the Sunday sermon. If the guy is telling people to kill unbelievers, it will probably get in the paper. How many reporters can go into mosques and understand Arabic? And how many would be allowed in when hate is being preached or plots hatched?

So you are saying that a prayer room in a community center that will be used by Americans who are Muslims will not have preaching in English? When one becomes Muslim do they automatically begin understanding spoken Arabic? I had no idea.

I wish folks who don't want the "community center near ground zero with a prayer room in it" would stop with all the bullshit and just admit they just do not care about the bill of rights and fuck the Muslims.
It would make everything easier for all of us.

449 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:54:21pm

re: #446 tnguitarist

Or, an Arabic speaking reporter could go in there. Or one of the translators fired from the military for being gay. They have some free time.

Yeah, but you know they're only going to lie to you. I mean, that's part of their religion, lying to infidels! Surely you can't trust them!!

///

450 tnguitarist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:55:39pm

Please don't ban them just yet.

451 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:56:06pm

re: #433 crown_of_feathers

The door is that way. Don't let it hit your bottom, please. I dislike having to clean up the skid marks.

452 tnguitarist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:56:55pm

Don't go! All the plants are gonna die!

453 crown_of_feathers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:56:59pm

re: #441 tnguitarist

"It really must be depressing to live in such an angry world."

I'm glad you sympathize, my friend.

It is, admittedly, terrible and depressing to be so angry. And ya know, if I just closed my eyes tighter, and didn't see what the hell is going on in Europe (where Islam will be triumphant in just a few short decades, and where free speech will soon be a thing of the past) maybe I wouldn't be so freakin' angry!

Help me have a lobotomy like you, won't you please?

454 tnguitarist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:58:20pm

re: #453 crown_of_feathers

Is that what you guys call an open mind?

455 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:58:44pm

re: #454 tnguitarist

Is that what you guys call an open mind?

As in so open, their brains fell out?

456 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:58:45pm

re: #433 crown_of_feathers

oh, i forgot. it's not "sensitive". oh, my stars. sooo insensitive. here, take a bottle of my wife's nail polish. your pantyhose might get a run...

457 palomino  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:02:40pm

re: #433 crown_of_feathers


God forbid you try to make a distinction between "We're going to PREVENT YOU from building a mosque (because we're RETHUGLICANS and don't care about NO CONSTEETUTION!)" and "My Islamic friends, don't you think it MIGHT POSSIBLY be more sensitive to the memory of dead Americans to put your center a little bit further away from where your co-religionists MURDERED THEM???"

"Co-religionists" = code for "all Muslims are the same, ie, terrorists or sympathizers."

A terribly loaded term, like Islamofascism, which attempts to conflate pretty much all of Islam with the most notorious of the fascists--Nazis.

458 tnguitarist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:02:42pm

re: #453 crown_of_feathers

I'm so sick of being nice to dickholes like you. Just continue to sit around in granny's basement pissing your pants while the rest of us get on with a happy fucking existence. Enjoy.

459 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:02:50pm

re: #453 crown_of_feathers

my chihuahua shakes when it's skeert, too.

we're not calm because we're apathetic, you puling, callow little frightened soul. we're calm because our republic is not so fragile as you might imagine. go find some stones for your man-pouch and stop sniveling. it's unseemly.

460 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:04:19pm

re: #442 dbe928

Any reporter can go into your evangelical church and write a story about the Sunday sermon. If the guy is telling people to kill unbelievers, it will probably get in the paper. How many reporters can go into mosques and understand Arabic? And how many would be allowed in when hate is being preached or plots hatched?

1. This is an open-to-all community center.

2. Perhaps more reporters should learn Arabic. Certainly, more FBI agents and such should learn Arabic. Maybe even the gay ones.

3. There's a church up the street from me that has sermons in Korean every Sunday. HOW CAN I BE SURE THEY ARE NOT A NORTH KOREAN TERROR CELL?

461 jaunte  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:06:45pm

re: #460 SanFranciscoZionist

HOW CAN I BE SURE

462 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:06:59pm

re: #446 tnguitarist

Or, an Arabic speaking reporter could go in there. Or one of the translators fired from the military for being gay. They have some free time.

Right after 9/11, my cousin's college friend Achmed got his first government job, translating the piles of shit they had in Arabic they'd never bothered to have translated.

Yes. That's how strapped they were for translators. They hired a twenty-two year old boy right out of UC Santa Barbara whose sole qualification was that he could read Arabic, pretty well.

That was nearly a decade ago. We no longer have an excuse.

463 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:07:41pm

re: #449 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yeah, but you know they're only going to lie to you. I mean, that's part of their religion, lying to infidels! Surely you can't trust them!!

///

Gay people have a religion that makes them lie to infidels? This is so ocmplicated.

464 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:08:32pm

re: #453 crown_of_feathers

"It really must be depressing to live in such an angry world."

I'm glad you sympathize, my friend.

It is, admittedly, terrible and depressing to be so angry. And ya know, if I just closed my eyes tighter, and didn't see what the hell is going on in Europe (where Islam will be triumphant in just a few short decades, and where free speech will soon be a thing of the past) maybe I wouldn't be so freakin' angry!

Help me have a lobotomy like you, won't you please?

Serious question, m'dear. How aware were you of terrorism before 9/11/01?

465 palomino  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:09:59pm

re: #453 crown_of_feathers

466 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:11:22pm

Huh, imagine that. Crown whacks the hornet's nest, then runs for the hills as soon as he starts gettin' his ass stung.

Pathetic.

467 tnguitarist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:12:26pm

Bye....

468 Gus  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:16:00pm

re: #442 dbe928

Any reporter can go into your evangelical church and write a story about the Sunday sermon. If the guy is telling people to kill unbelievers, it will probably get in the paper. How many reporters can go into mosques and understand Arabic? And how many would be allowed in when hate is being preached or plots hatched?

Right. They're going to reveal their plots in a sermon or engage in hate in Arabic in the middle of Manhattan and none of the press that may be present will understand. Yeah, no one speaks Arabic in in Manhattan and all of these imaginary press people will be populated by English only people. Along with your conspiracy assuming that everyone that would be sitting there would remain silent. What are you folks going to come up with next? That they're going to place a secret "doomsday machine" in the foundation of Park51 to be deployed in the future?

Ooga booga!

469 erraticsphinx  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:18:27pm

re: #468 Gus 802

To the crazed, that actually sounds like something that could happen. They've moved to a different plane of existence (consisting of constant bed-wetting and rage).

And yet, not joining them makes you a "lemming", apparently.

470 palomino  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:18:35pm

re: #356 NC Gray

I am curious, have any of the folks who claim this is a constitutional issue ever tried to build a church? Because it seems to me that this project is being fast tracked in a way that even a Christian church would not be…

In the relatively small suburban southern city where I live it took my church 4 years of planning and nearly $300,000 cost (survey, architectural etc.) before we ever broke ground. After approval came we had to purchase two other parcels of land and make our paved parking area approximately 85% of the size it needed to be for our congregation size.

It never occurred to us complain to the city/county planning board that we were entitled to build where we wanted in the manor that we saw fit.

What I see here relating to the Islamic faith is a large amount of cognitive dissidence related to what Muslims believe regarding the level to which they can impose their believes on other Muslims or non Muslims. I wonder if liberal / progressives simply view issues like this as triangulation (the enemy of my enemy is my friend). And if so if one day we have Sharia law here in the US and women are forced to where burqas and Jews, liberal Christians (conservative Christians will be dead) other faiths have to pay the jizyah, will you guys look back and think the conservatives might have had a point?

Right, because Muslims (1.5% of the US population) are just SO close to taking over and imposing Sharia law.

Like so many conservative Christians, you see yourself as some sort of persecuted minority when there is no evidence for such a view, other than the fact that some Americans aren't members of your church.

471 Gus  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:19:56pm

re: #469 erraticsphinx

To the crazed, that actually sounds like something that could happen. They've moved to a different plane of existence (consisting of constant bed-wetting and rage).

And yet, not joining them makes you a "lemming", apparently.

Yes. They're known for having a diversity of opinions.

//

472 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:20:37pm

re: #453 crown_of_feathers

"It really must be depressing to live in such an angry world."

'm gld y smpthz, my frnd.

t s, dmttdly, trrbl nd dprssng t b s ngry. nd y knw, f jst clsd my ys tghtr, nd ddn't s wht th hll s gng n n rp (whr slm wll b trmphnt n jst fw shrt dcds, nd whr fr spch wll sn b thng of th pst) myb wldn't b s freakin' angry!

Hlp m hv lbtmy lk y, wn't y pls?

The troll says what?

473 Gus  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:21:46pm

re: #470 palomino

Right, because Muslims (1.5% of the US population) are just SO close to taking over and imposing Sharia law.

Like so many conservative Christians, you see yourself as some sort of persecuted minority when there is no evidence for such a view, other than the fact that some Americans aren't members of your church.

You ever notice how it's always the significant minorities that are always being cast as eventually taking over the USA by the paranoid?

474 jaunte  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:22:08pm

re: #472 Dark_Falcon

The troll says what?

Image: devowelizer.jpg

475 tnguitarist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:23:40pm

I have a nominee for the official 'ooga booga' image.

Image: drpork.jpg

Bonus internet dollarz if you know the movie.

476 crown_of_feathers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:27:51pm

re: #464 SanFranciscoZionist

"Serious question, m'dear. How aware were you of terrorism before 9/11/01?"

Hmm. Not sure of the reason for that question. I was fairly aware of it. And, like a good knee-jerk Jew, ALWAYS voted Democrat.

Then 9-11 happened. And then I went on a number of message boards, and the savage anti-American, anti-Jewish tone coming from the Leftists and their allies (the Islamofascists) made me sick to my stomach. And that helped me see that, at the bottom, at the CORE, of all the leftist horse-crap, was a hatred of America, and that there was a growing Jew-hating sickness within the Left, masquerading as Anti-Israel hatred.

And (whatever Charles and the crew here say) I came to see that the sickness within the Left is far, far, more dangerous than whatever pale inanities might be coming from the leaderless Right.

477 tnguitarist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:28:56pm

re: #476 crown_of_feathers

Yawn.

478 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:30:13pm

re: #476 crown_of_feathers

"Serious question, m'dear. How aware were you of terrorism before 9/11/01?"

Hmm. Not sure of the reason for that question. I was fairly aware of it. And, like a good knee-jerk Jew, ALWAYS voted Democrat.

Then 9-11 happened. And then I went on a number of message boards, and the savage anti-American, anti-Jewish tone coming from the Leftists and their allies (the Islamofascists) made me sick to my stomach. And that helped me see that, at the bottom, at the CORE, of all the leftist horse-crap, was a hatred of America, and that there was a growing Jew-hating sickness within the Left, masquerading as Anti-Israel hatred.

And (whatever Charles and the crew here say) I came to see that the sickness within the Left is far, far, more dangerous than whatever pale inanities might be coming from the leaderless Right.

The threat from the left is still great indeed, but the Right poses the greatest immediate threat of violence. Let's not ignore either.

479 What, me worry?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:33:06pm

re: #461 jaunte

HOW CAN I BE SURE

How about this gal? :)

480 crown_of_feathers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:34:04pm

em>re: #478 Dark_Falcon

""the Right poses the greatest immediate threat of violence."

481 crown_of_feathers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:35:26pm

re: #480 crown_of_feathers

Can you give some specific examples?

482 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:36:19pm

re: #476 crown_of_feathers

"Serious question, m'dear. How aware were you of terrorism before 9/11/01?"

Hmm. Not sure of the reason for that question. I was fairly aware of it. And, like a good knee-jerk Jew, ALWAYS voted Democrat.

Then 9-11 happened. And then I went on a number of message boards, and the savage anti-American, anti-Jewish tone coming from the Leftists and their allies (the Islamofascists) made me sick to my stomach. And that helped me see that, at the bottom, at the CORE, of all the leftist horse-crap, was a hatred of America, and that there was a growing Jew-hating sickness within the Left, masquerading as Anti-Israel hatred.

And (whatever Charles and the crew here say) I came to see that the sickness within the Left is far, far, more dangerous than whatever pale inanities might be coming from the leaderless Right.

I had, in some ways, a similar experience with the farther left, although I do not seem to have made as great a change politically. So I understand that anger.

What I don't understand is your fury at people here, who are not anti-Semites, not anti-American, who simply don't agree with you on a single, not terribly important issue.

What have the folks at LGF done to earn such wrath?

483 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:38:40pm

re: #476 crown_of_feathers

"Serious question, m'dear. How aware were you of terrorism before 9/11/01?"

Hmm. Not sure of the reason for that question. I was fairly aware of it. And, like a good knee-jerk Jew, ALWAYS voted Democrat.

Then 9-11 happened. And then I went on a number of message boards, and the savage anti-American, anti-Jewish tone coming from the Leftists and their allies (the Islamofascists) made me sick to my stomach. And that helped me see that, at the bottom, at the CORE, of all the leftist horse-crap, was a hatred of America, and that there was a growing Jew-hating sickness within the Left, masquerading as Anti-Israel hatred.

And (whatever Charles and the crew here say) I came to see that the sickness within the Left is far, far, more dangerous than whatever pale inanities might be coming from the leaderless Right.

It absolutely amazes me how you could have been around as long as I have, yet not be able to see the difference between those Muslims who truly love America and go out of their way to prove so and the jihadis who wish nothing more than this nation torn down and rebuilt as a backwards hellhole.

484 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:39:33pm

re: #481 crown_of_feathers

Can you give some specific examples?

Well, there's the militia nuts that were arrested in Michigan, as well as the murderous John Joseph Jay that Pam Geller in league with.

485 crown_of_feathers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:45:51pm

re: #482 SanFranciscoZionist

"What have the folks at LGF done to earn such wrath?"

You mistake me. There's no wrath here. I suggest you look at the reactions to the comment I made (first comment in a couple of years) in the earlier Charles Krauthammer thread. I was savaged for it. There's where the real wrath came in (from the LGF crew).

I actually find it somewhat disorienting, and really quite weird but yet instructive, to be attacked on LGF.

My friend, there is a major problem with the Left, and Islam in the West, and with the Left's reaction to Islam. I don't think making happy-face with Islam is going to help us, any more than it has helped the Europeans. Perhaps Charles thinks so. I disagree.

486 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:53:57pm

re: #485 crown_of_feathers

"What have the folks at LGF done to earn such wrath?"

You mistake me. There's no wrath here. I suggest you look at the reactions to the comment I made (first comment in a couple of years) in the earlier Charles Krauthammer thread. I was savaged for it. There's where the real wrath came in (from the LGF crew).

I actually find it somewhat disorienting, and really quite weird but yet instructive, to be attacked on LGF.

My friend, there is a major problem with the Left, and Islam in the West, and with the Left's reaction to Islam. I don't think making happy-face with Islam is going to help us, any more than it has helped the Europeans. Perhaps Charles thinks so. I disagree.

What earlier Krauthammer thread? The only one I can find recently is this one.

487 crown_of_feathers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:57:21pm

re: #483 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

"yet not be able to see the difference between those Muslims who truly love America"
...God bless them!!

".. and go out of their way to prove so"
...you mean like, at every turn saying they hate terrorism, BUT saying...let's look first at the ROOT CAUSES of the "militants" .

Look, if you're looking for someone who HATES MUSLIMS as human beings, you won't find it with me.

If you're looking for someone who thinks (rightfully so) that Islam (the creed) is a sick, militant, murderous, pathological ideology, I'm your man. Sorry for espousing the truth.

488 What, me worry?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:00:59pm

re: #485 crown_of_feathers

No wrath? You called us all assholes and favored Robert Spencer. Or you want to go back and read what you wrote.

You can keep your blinders on if you don't want to see the disgusting racism on the Right. That's your business. As a Jew, I would think you would be concerned with all forms of racism, but you don't want to acknowledge that.

You don't hate Muslims, ok, but what can they do to satisfy you? Not be Muslims maybe?

We get you. Now be off to your little swamp so you can write about your experiences.

489 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:02:04pm

re: #487 crown_of_feathers

"yet not be able to see the difference between those Muslims who truly love America"
...God bless them!!

".. and go out of their way to prove so"
...you mean like, at every turn saying they hate terrorism, BUT saying...let's look first at the ROOT CAUSES of the "militants" .

Look, if you're looking for someone who HATES MUSLIMS as human beings, you won't find it with me.

If you're looking for someone who thinks (rightfully so) that Islam (the creed) is a sick, militant, murderous, pathological ideology, I'm your man. Sorry for espousing the truth.

And ignorant little fucks like you are precisely why guys like OBL find such willing converts, both here at home and abroad. Why would Muslims want to feel pride and support a nation that views them with suspicion and hatred simply because of their beliefs, rather than anything they have done.

But sure, go ahead and keep telling yourself that you can hate Islam and not hate Muslims. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

490 crown_of_feathers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:02:11pm

re: #486 SanFranciscoZionist

"What earlier Krauthammer thread? "

Oops. Yeah, this is the one. It's being going on for so freakin' long, I guess, that I thought it was another thread.

491 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:04:14pm

re: #490 crown_of_feathers

"What earlier Krauthammer thread? "

Oops. Yeah, this is the one. It's being going on for so freakin' long, I guess, that I thought it was another thread.

OK. I will say, though, that you came on with clear aggression. Reread your first post. It's dripping with anger and sarcasm.

492 Nimed  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:06:17pm

re: #487 crown_of_feathers

Fuck off, dipshit.

493 crown_of_feathers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:07:28pm

re: #489 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

"But sure, go ahead and keep telling yourself that you can hate Islam and not hate Muslims. Whatever helps you sleep at night."

Well, ya know what, buddy?

I really, really, really hate Nazis. But I don't have quite the same feeling against GERMANS as a people. It IS possible to ween oneself away from a sick ideology, and be a decent PERSON.

And guess what? The Nazis (Hitler among them) felt the greatest affinity for Islam. I wonder why that might be?

494 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:09:56pm

re: #493 crown_of_feathers

"But sure, go ahead and keep telling yourself that you can hate Islam and not hate Muslims. Whatever helps you sleep at night."

Well, ya know what, buddy?

I really, really, really hate Nazis. But I don't have quite the same feeling against GERMANS as a people. It IS possible to ween oneself away from a sick ideology, and be a decent PERSON.

And guess what? The Nazis (Hitler among them) felt the greatest affinity for Islam. I wonder why that might be?

What convinces you that it is not possible to be a decent person and a Muslim?

495 Artist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:10:43pm

The only thing evil about any religion is that there are crazed fundamentalists out there willing to do horrid things for their beliefs.

This is not exclusive to Islam.

496 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:12:42pm

re: #493 crown_of_feathers

"But sure, go ahead and keep telling yourself that you can hate Islam and not hate Muslims. Whatever helps you sleep at night."

Well, ya know what, buddy?

I really, really, really hate Nazis. But I don't have quite the same feeling against GERMANS as a people. It IS possible to ween oneself away from a sick ideology, and be a decent PERSON.

And guess what? The Nazis (Hitler among them) felt the greatest affinity for Islam. I wonder why that might be?

Comparing Islam in toto to Fascism is crazy talk. There are non-violent strains of Islam, and to lump them in with Wahabbism is grossly unfair.

497 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:14:24pm

re: #495 SteelPH

The only thing evil about any religion is that there are crazed fundamentalists out there willing to do horrid things for their beliefs.

This is not exclusive to Islam.

but Islam has more of them than any other religion. The nature of some its sects is the reason why.

(that should not be read to say that Islam is intrinsically evil.)

498 crown_of_feathers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:14:43pm

"It's dripping with anger and sarcasm."

Really? Could it possibly be because Charles (and his obedient crew here) have dealt with the anger of a majority of Americans by regarding them with CONTEMPT?

Any chance that Charles could make an attempt to see that Americans are still hurting over that atrocity, and that maybe, just maybe the Muslims involved (who I am sure are wonderful people) might more reasonably just say "You know, you're hurting, and we don't want to hurt you any more, so maybe we'll just build our center a bit further away from that area, and we can all be friends?)"

499 Artist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:15:31pm

re: #497 Dark_Falcon

No denying that.

500 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:16:10pm

re: #493 crown_of_feathers

"But sure, go ahead and keep telling yourself that you can hate Islam and not hate Muslims. Whatever helps you sleep at night."

Well, ya know what, buddy?

I really, really, really hate Nazis. But I don't have quite the same feeling against GERMANS as a people. It IS possible to ween oneself away from a sick ideology, and be a decent PERSON.

And guess what? The Nazis (Hitler among them) felt the greatest affinity for Islam. I wonder why that might be?

Yeah, everybody was a "Good German," nobody really believed what the Fuhrer and their local party leaders were telling them. They loved Jews and Gypsies and Slavs and all the other "untermensch" and never agreed with the Final Solution or with the Gestapo dragging people into the street and blowing their brains out without reason or provocation. And they only did the salutes and pledged eternal allegiance to Hitler because they were afraid of what would happen if they didn't.

The fact that you can't tell the different between a sick ideology like Nazism and a legitimate religion like Islam tells me all I need to know where you head is at, namely rammed right up your keister.

501 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:18:13pm

re: #498 crown_of_feathers

"It's dripping with anger and sarcasm."

Really? Could it possibly be because Charles (and his obedient crew here) have dealt with the anger of a majority of Americans by regarding them with CONTEMPT?

Any chance that Charles could make an attempt to see that Americans are still hurting over that atrocity, and that maybe, just maybe the Muslims involved (who I am sure are wonderful people) might more reasonably just say "You know, you're hurting, and we don't want to hurt you any more, so maybe we'll just build our center a bit further away from that area, and we can all be friends?)"

(Hard to believe that would help, under the circumstances.)

You think it's contempt to strongly disagree with someone?

502 crown_of_feathers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:18:57pm

re: #494 SanFranciscoZionist

"What convinces you that it is not possible to be a decent person and a Muslim?"

Sir - or ma'am -

I am absolutely sure it is possible to be a decent person and a Muslim. There are TONS of fine Muslims. But they are fine Muslims IN SPITE OF their belief in Islam, not BECAUSE OF ISLAM.

503 What, me worry?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:20:44pm

re: #498 crown_of_feathers

"It's dripping with anger and sarcasm."

Really? Could it possibly be because Charles (and his obedient crew here) have dealt with the anger of a majority of Americans by regarding them with CONTEMPT?

Any chance that Charles could make an attempt to see that Americans are still hurting over that atrocity, and that maybe, just maybe the Muslims involved (who I am sure are wonderful people) might more reasonably just say "You know, you're hurting, and we don't want to hurt you any more, so maybe we'll just build our center a bit further away from that area, and we can all be friends?)"

The Imam already had a congregation on West Broadway since 1983. You knew that, right?

504 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:21:25pm

re: #502 crown_of_feathers

"What convinces you that it is not possible to be a decent person and a Muslim?"

Sir - or ma'am -

I am absolutely sure it is possible to be a decent person and a Muslim. There are TONS of fine Muslims. But they are fine Muslims IN SPITE OF their belief in Islam, not BECAUSE OF ISLAM.

Is there a religion you would say contributes to making someone a fine person?

505 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:25:00pm

re: #498 crown_of_feathers

"It's dripping with anger and sarcasm."

Rlly? Cld t pssbly b bcs Charles (nd hs bdnt crw hr) hv dlt wth th ngr of mjrty f mrcns by rgrdng thm wth CNTMPT?

ny chnc tht Charles cld mk n ttmpt t s tht mrcns r stll hrtng vr tht trcty, nd tht myb, jst myb th Mslms nvlvd (wh m sr r wndrfl ppl) mght mr rsnbly jst sy "Y knw, y'r hrtng, nd w dn't wnt t hrt y ny mr, s myb w'll jst bld r cntr bt frthr wy frm tht r, nd w cn ll b frnds?)"

GAZE

506 crown_of_feathers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:25:56pm

re: #500 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

"The fact that you can't tell the different between a sick ideology like Nazism and a legitimate religion like Islam tells me all I need to know where you head is at, namely rammed right up your keister."

Well, this is really THE ISSUE of the 21st century. (I don't mean your opinion about where my head is).

I mean, is it possible to live with Islam? Is it just a few bad eggs that give Islam a bad name (this is the George Bush doctrine), or is Islam QUA Islam something evil (the Robert Spencer approach).

I sure hope you BUSHites are correct. Because we are in a world of hurtin' if Robert Spencer has analyzed things correctly.

And you know what? Unfortunately Robert Spencer knows a whole HELL of a lot more about Islam and its doctrines than George Bush.

507 crown_of_feathers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:28:00pm

re: #505 Dark_Falcon

Are you taking some weird pharmaceuticals, Sir?

Trust me, its better to stick with beer.

508 swamprat  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:28:04pm

re: #502 crown_of_feathers

"What convinces you that it is not possible to be a decent person and a Muslim?"

Sir - or ma'am -

I am absolutely sure it is possible to be a decent person and a Muslim. There are TONS of fine Muslims. But they are fine Muslims IN SPITE OF their belief in Islam, not BECAUSE OF ISLAM.

I feel the same way about people who order pizza with pineapple.
Or wear lime green polyester.

The atheists called. They want their talking point back.
Oh. Oh! the Christian anti-gay coalition called, too. They said the same thing.
The Democrats DID NOT call. Nor the Republicans; They're having a spat.

509 swamprat  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:29:12pm

re: #504 SanFranciscoZionist

Is there a religion you would say contributes to making someone a fine person?


What is Buddhism, Alex?

510 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:30:05pm

re: #506 crown_of_feathers

"The fact that you can't tell the different between a sick ideology like Nazism and a legitimate religion like Islam tells me all I need to know where you head is at, namely rammed right up your keister."

Well, this is really THE ISSUE of the 21st century. (I don't mean your opinion about where my head is).

I mean, is it possible to live with Islam? Is it just a few bad eggs that give Islam a bad name (this is the George Bush doctrine), or is Islam QUA Islam something evil (the Robert Spencer approach).

I sure hope you BUSHites are correct. Because we are in a world of hurtin' if Robert Spencer has analyzed things correctly.

And you know what? Unfortunately Robert Spencer knows a whole HELL of a lot more about Islam and its doctrines than George Bush.

And what of the few bad eggs who've gone around with a Bible in hand, claiming to do the lords work while killing abortion doctors or blowing up clinics? Or blowing up a federal building because they disagreed with the government? Or the ones who've abused children and allowed them to die instead of receive medical treatment because it goes against God's plan?

Shit, how about the centuries of bloodshed, inquisitions, witch hunts, and other inhumanity towards our fellow man that was committed in the name of God? Is Christianity still a "good" religion despite all that?

511 What, me worry?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:30:13pm

re: #509 swamprat

What is Buddhism, Alex?

I don't know. I know some angry Buddhists!

512 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:31:33pm

re: #507 crown_of_feathers

r y tkng sm wrd phrmctcls, Sr?

Trst m, ts bttr t stck wth br.

It's called "disemvoweling", and its meant to show that I think you're being nonsensical.

513 Gus  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:31:42pm

BUSHites?

514 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:33:05pm

re: #506 crown_of_feathers


I sure hope you BUSHites are correct. Because we are in a world of hurtin' if Robert Spencer has analyzed things correctly.

And you know what? Unfortunately Robert Spencer knows a whole HELL of a lot more about Islam and its doctrines than George Bush.

No one has ever called me a Bushite before, so thank you for that unique experience.

Why do you believe Spencer is a good source on Islam? What are his qualifications to write on the subject, beside a great deal of self-confidence? Have you read any of Bernard Lewis' work? And why do you assume that George Bush, a man with the world's intelligence networks and best political analysts at his beck and call was uninformed about Islam?

515 crown_of_feathers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:33:57pm

re: #504 SanFranciscoZionist

Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism (especially Buddhism).

As for Islam, I'll make an exception for Sufism. Those guys seem to be pretty o.k.;

516 What, me worry?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:34:02pm

re: #506 crown_of_feathers

It's not possible to live within Islam then, because if you do, you're really just lying in wait to take over. All those Muslims who fled their mother countries because of tyranny, we shouldn't trust them.

And Imam Rauf had a mosque in Manhattan for almost 30 years, but is waiting until now to begin the Islamic take over.

So it's ok to be a Muslim... if you're not a Muslim.

You, Spencer and Geller have been drinking the same tainted water.

517 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:34:15pm

re: #509 swamprat

What is Buddhism, Alex?

I've known Buddhists who were total assholes, though, so it doesn't always 'take'.

518 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:34:44pm

re: #510 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

And what of the few bad eggs who've gone around with a Bible in hand, claiming to do the lords work while killing abortion doctors or blowing up clinics? Or blowing up a federal building because they disagreed with the government? Or the ones who've abused children and allowed them to die instead of receive medical treatment because it goes against God's plan?

Shit, how about the centuries of bloodshed, inquisitions, witch hunts, and other inhumanity towards our fellow man that was committed in the name of God? Is Christianity still a "good" religion despite all that?

There are no good religions. There are only good people who follow religions.

519 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:35:33pm

re: #515 crown_of_feathers

Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism (especially Buddhism).

As for Islam, I'll make an exception for Sufism. Those guys seem to be pretty o.k.;

Facepalm. You do know this mosque is being built by Sufis?

No make that a double facepalm.

FAIL.

520 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:37:00pm

re: #515 crown_of_feathers

Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism (especially Buddhism).

As for Islam, I'll make an exception for Sufism. Those guys seem to be pretty o.k.;

So a good person who's a Christian is good because of Christianity, and a good person who's a Muslim is good despite Islam? Unless he's a Sufi?

How do you make that judgement call?

521 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:39:04pm

BTW, re Cato's question a few days ago, I am finding blog-type sources that say Robert Spencer doesn't speak Arabic. Does anyone actually know?

522 swamprat  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:42:47pm

They have the right to build a mosque there. I have the right to call it a mosque.
Further, I strongly object to those who would use religion to stop its construction.
("First they came for the Mosque-builders, but I didn't build mosques, so I said nothing")...We know where THAT led!
But it is more than just a mosque you say?

Right you are!

It is a mosque-orama!

Let them build it! Right wrong or indifferent! The rules count even when we don't like them. That's why we write shit down.

523 crown_of_feathers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:42:57pm

re: #510 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

"Shit, how about the centuries of bloodshed, inquisitions, witch hunts, and other inhumanity towards our fellow man that was committed in the name of God? Is Christianity still a "good" religion despite all that?"

The answer is YES. And I say that as a Jew. Because Christianity's historical misdeeds (and they are grievous) are DISTORTIONS of the founder's doctrines, which would have undoubtedly been the foundation of a "religion of peace" if its followers hadn't f'ed up so badly.

Whereas Islam's historical (and ongoing) misdeeds) are not distortions of the founder's doctrine's, unless you so twist, turn, and distort those doctrines themselves to make Islam into a mythical "religion of peace". They are a FULFILLMENT of those doctrines.

524 What, me worry?  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:46:02pm

I'm out of this conversation. Let the bigot talk to her/himself.

You can tell your friends, Marjoriemoonbat said so.

525 crown_of_feathers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:46:37pm

re: #519 wlewisiii

"You do know this mosque is being built by Sufis?"

Jeez, and I thought the Sufis WEREN'T a-holes.

My bad.

526 crown_of_feathers  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:49:43pm

re: #524 marjoriemoon

Night, night, marjoriemoonbat.

Don't let the Burkha irritate ya...

527 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:55:01pm

re: #523 crown_of_feathers

"Shit, how about the centuries of bloodshed, inquisitions, witch hunts, and other inhumanity towards our fellow man that was committed in the name of God? Is Christianity still a "good" religion despite all that?"

The answer is YES. And I say that as a Jew. Because Christianity's historical misdeeds (and they are grievous) are DISTORTIONS of the founder's doctrines, which would have undoubtedly been the foundation of a "religion of peace" if its followers hadn't f'ed up so badly.

Whereas Islam's historical (and ongoing) misdeeds) are not distortions of the founder's doctrine's, unless you so twist, turn, and distort those doctrines themselves to make Islam into a mythical "religion of peace". They are a FULFILLMENT of those doctrines.

How do you figure that? Seriously. Christianity gets absolution for its sins because Jesus meant well, and Islam doesn't, because Mohammed didn't?

My brain is squeaking.

528 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:55:28pm

re: #525 crown_of_feathers

"You do know this mosque is being built by Sufis?"

Jeez, and I thought the Sufis WEREN'T a-holes.

My bad.

Could it be that the Sufis are OK, and are building the mosque because they're OK?

529 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:08:12pm

re: #523 crown_of_feathers

"Shit, how about the centuries of bloodshed, inquisitions, witch hunts, and other inhumanity towards our fellow man that was committed in the name of God? Is Christianity still a "good" religion despite all that?"

The answer is YES. And I say that as a Jew. Because Christianity's historical misdeeds (and they are grievous) are DISTORTIONS of the founder's doctrines, which would have undoubtedly been the foundation of a "religion of peace" if its followers hadn't f'ed up so badly.

Whereas Islam's historical (and ongoing) misdeeds) are not distortions of the founder's doctrine's, unless you so twist, turn, and distort those doctrines themselves to make Islam into a mythical "religion of peace". They are a FULFILLMENT of those doctrines.

My friend, have you yourself ever opened a Koran and actually read what it says? Or do you simply take what guys like Spencer say as the whole truth and believe that this nothing good or righteous in Islam? That he doesn't omit or twist passages from the Koran to fit his beliefs? And that those who've claimed that he's ignoring or distorting portions of the Koran that do not support his view of Islam as being "evil" from its creation are all liars?

530 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:17:56pm

re: #526 crown_of_feathers

FOAD

531 Cineaste  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:23:31pm

re: #436 dbe928

So you cite 3 mosques out of 1200 in the US. How many synagogues have supported the idiots who camp out on hilltops in the West Bank and fuck with the Palestinians? I would bet at least 3. How many Churches have sent financing to the assholes in Africa who want to make homosexuality a capital offense - I am certain it's more than 3. When you show me a tidal wave of radical, violent islamists pouring out of mosques in America then I'll agree we have a problem. Until then, don't throw stones because we'll need to ban a lot of Christians from building in this country if we do...

532 Cineaste  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:26:52pm

re: #442 dbe928

Any reporter can go into your evangelical church and write a story about the Sunday sermon. If the guy is telling people to kill unbelievers, it will probably get in the paper. How many reporters can go into mosques and understand Arabic? And how many would be allowed in when hate is being preached or plots hatched?

How many reporters speak Latin? Those Catholics with their latin masses are definitely up to some killin'....

533 Cineaste  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:28:57pm

re: #453 crown_of_feathers

And ya know, if I just closed my eyes tighter, and didn't see what the hell is going on in Europe (where Islam will be triumphant in just a few short decades, and where free speech will soon be a thing of the past) maybe I wouldn't be so freakin' angry!

Why do I suspect this guy is jumping up and down and crying when Obama references Europe as a comparison for the US? What happened to the greatness of American exceptionalism?

534 Cineaste  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:33:27pm

re: #476 crown_of_feathers

And then I went on a number of message boards, and the savage anti-American, anti-Jewish tone coming from the Leftists and their allies (the Islamofascists) made me sick to my stomach.

Yep, you know how much a good Jihadi likes gay marriage, doing drugs and the general liberal hedonism of the left...

535 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:37:02pm

I'm officially closing my window for this thread. Will check back in the AM.

536 Cineaste  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:37:14pm

re: #498 crown_of_feathers

Any chance that Charles could make an attempt to see that Americans are still hurting over that atrocity, and that maybe, just maybe the Muslims involved (who I am sure are wonderful people) might more reasonably just say "You know, you're hurting, and we don't want to hurt you any more, so maybe we'll just build our center a bit further away from that area, and we can all be friends?)"

For fuck's sake. It's Americans who are building Park 51... Stop saying that there are Americans and there are Muslims as though those two are always separate groups, ok? We are all Americans and should be treated that way.

537 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:38:39pm

re: #535 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm officially closing my window for this thread. Will check back in the AM.

Methinks this particular nimrod won't be around come the morn. No great loss.

538 Cineaste  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:39:00pm

re: #506 crown_of_feathers

And you know what? Unfortunately Robert Spencer knows a whole HELL of a lot more about Islam and its doctrines than George Bush.

Ahh, this makes it clear. You view the two smartest people around as George Bush and Robert Spencer.

There's a building in your neighborhood. It's called a library. Go check it out.

539 sonopasquale  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:40:38pm

When did LGF become the lapdog of daily kos.

540 Cineaste  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:41:11pm

re: #539 sonopasquale

When did LGF become the lapdog of daily kos.

Say wha?

542 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:46:27pm

re: #539 sonopasquale

When did LGF become the lapdog of daily kos.

Considering that this site has been "graced" with your presence 7 times in the last 3 years, my guess is you haven't a frakin' clue what LGF truly is. Go back to whatever Rightwing blog you crawled out of.

543 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:46:40pm

Hay guys what's up in this thread

544 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:47:11pm

re: #539 sonopasquale

When did LGF become the lapdog of daily kos.

When did you get internet privileges at your group home?

545 webevintage  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:47:15pm

re: #543 WindUpBird

Hay guys what's up in this thread


crazy people being crazy

546 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:49:50pm

re: #545 webevintage

crazy people being crazy

Well, it's not their fault their parents drank

547 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:53:38pm

re: #539 sonopasquale

When did LGF become the lapdog of daily kos.

YOU'RE TOO LATE. GO AWAY.

548 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:07:34pm

Muhammad is said to have hated dogs, and recommended that they all be killed. In one of the ahadith.

Yet in another, he is reported to have severely chastised a woman for tying up her dog outside in the heat of the day and not giving it enough water. He told her she could go to hell for such cruelty.

In another story, he is said to have cut off the sleeve of his robe rather than disturb a sleeping cat.

All of these are stories. Which one is the real Muhammad?

It's not Muhammad's fault if his followers chose the one that reified their cultural dislike of dogs.

Which one of these is the Real Jesus™?

"Whoever harms one of these little ones, it were better that a millstone were tied around his neck, and he be cast into the sea."

Or

"I come not to bring peace, but a sword."

???

Forests of paper and oceans of ink have been spilt trying to sort that out.

Me, I go with one simple sentence: "By their fruits ye shall know them."

549 efuseakay  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:07:50pm

Charles, I emailed you hoping to get a response, but I never did... I found this post of yours from back in 2008 about Imam Rauf...

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Eh... not very comforting, to tell you the truth... It is the same guy involved with Park51, isn't it? :(

550 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:23:21pm

re: #549 efuseakay

Charles, I emailed you hoping to get a response, but I never did... I found this post of yours from back in 2008 about Imam Rauf...

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Eh... not very comforting, to tell you the truth... It is the same guy involved with Park51, isn't it? :(

I'm sure I would disagree with Imam Rauf on some things -- including whether Britain should accommodate sharia in a limited way.

But after reading a lot more of his work over a period of years, it's very clear that this is not any kind of radical Islamist.

Have you ever thought about the kind of investigation Imam Rauf would have undergone to be sent overseas by the Bush administration State Department? The idea that he could be a secret radical Moorish agent is ridiculous. They went through his past with a fine toothed comb.

551 Pacificlady  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:19:15pm

If this is about building bridges between people than they should build it somewhere else. As Canadian Muslims Raheel Raza and Tarek Fatah wrote: "We Muslims know that the idea behind the ground zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation to thumb our noses at the infidel." I believe them.

552 webs87  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 3:19:24pm

re: #550 Charles

I don't care one way or the other about this mosque being built, but it's disingenuous to say Imam Rauf is irreproachable and honest about his motivations as a peace builder.
I'm guessing you've read that shortly after 9/11 when asked whether US deserved the attacks Rauf answered:

"I wouldn’t say that the United States deserved what happened. But the United States’ policies were an accessory to the crime that happened."


When asked to clarify about US being an accessory, he said:

"Because we have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world. In fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA."

But when asked this June whether he considers Hamas a terrorist organization, he said:

"I'm not a politician. I try to avoid the issues. The issue of terrorism is a very complex question... I am a peace builder. I will not allow anybody to put me in a position where I am seen by any party in the world as an adversary or as an enemy."


So now all of a sudden he's not a politician. But he had no problems earlier speaking about "US policies." He had no problem talking about incorporation of Sharia Law into Britain. He had no problem with putting himself into a position of being seen as an adversary by any party. But god forbid he calls Hamas what it is.
Since you've read a lot of his work over a period of years, can you explain this change in outlook on his part?

553 acacia  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 3:21:26pm

I can see someone disagreeing with Krauthammer on his points but this is hardly evidence he has gone off the deep end. There are 2 issues here. One is the right to build it there and the other is the wisdom to build it there. While Krauthammer does raise zoning laws at one point toward the end of the article I don't see this as anything but a statement - along with all his much more numerous non-legal examples - that location matters. It does. He's weighing in on the wisdom of building it there not the legal right to do it. I think his examples of Gettysburg, Treblinka and Auschwitz are good ones and bring home the point that there is more merit in not doing something you have a right to do rather than doing it just because you can and in your mind it's a good idea. I personally find this whole issue boring but I think Krauthammer makes good points. It's only those that say there is no "right" to build a house of worship in an area otherwise zoned for it that are off the deep end because they essentially advocate a law "prohibiting the free exercise" of religion. Last I checked you can't do that.

554 webs87  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 3:40:41pm

re: #30 Alouette

Followed your link. It's a Buddhist temple, not a Japanese cultural center. And the state religion of Imperial Japan was Shinto.
And you're really stretching the word "near". It's about 15 miles away. Do you know how many mosques there are within that distance from Ground Zero?

555 webs87  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 4:22:43pm

re: #553 acacia

I can see someone disagreeing with Krauthammer on his points but this is hardly evidence he has gone off the deep end. There are 2 issues here. One is the right to build it there and the other is the wisdom to build it there. While Krauthammer does raise zoning laws at one point toward the end of the article I don't see this as anything but a statement - along with all his much more numerous non-legal examples - that location matters. It does. He's weighing in on the wisdom of building it there not the legal right to do it. I think his examples of Gettysburg, Treblinka and Auschwitz are good ones and bring home the point that there is more merit in not doing something you have a right to do rather than doing it just because you can and in your mind it's a good idea. I personally find this whole issue boring but I think Krauthammer makes good points. It's only those that say there is no "right" to build a house of worship in an area otherwise zoned for it that are off the deep end because they essentially advocate a law "prohibiting the free exercise" of religion. Last I checked you can't do that.

I agree. Krauthammer doesn't deny the Constitutional right to build the mosque, like Charles suggests. For him it boils down to "common decency and respect for the sacred." Charles completely misrepresents Krauthammer and quotes out of context.

556 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 4:42:23pm

And here we go again at the end of a dead thread.

557 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 4:57:28pm

re: #555 webs87

I agree. Krauthammer doesn't deny the Constitutional right to build the mosque, like Charles suggests. For him it boils down to "common decency and respect for the sacred." Charles completely misrepresents Krauthammer and quotes out of context.

Then - why don't you or Krauthammer complain about the titty bar?.

558 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:08:15pm

re: #555 webs87

I agree. Krauthammer doesn't deny the Constitutional right to build the mosque, like Charles suggests. For him it boils down to "common decency and respect for the sacred." Charles completely misrepresents Krauthammer and quotes out of context.

Why do you asshats always show up on dead threads? Some weird macho thing about getting the last word in? If you want to discuss something, come to a fresh thread.

559 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:11:46pm

Hay, what's happening with all these right wing blog commenter cowards eating feces in the darkness

oh hi webs87! Is it internet privilege night at the group home?

560 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:12:46pm

re: #558 tnguitarist

Why do you asshats always show up on dead threads? Some weird macho thing about getting the last word in? If you want to discuss something, come to a fresh thread.

macho zeta males who sit and munch doritos and read Spencer books in their darkened apartment and shiver in fear at the coming muslim hordes :D

Internet tough guys!

561 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:13:38pm

re: #553 acacia

tl dr

562 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:13:49pm

re: #555 webs87

liar

563 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:14:11pm

re: #551 Pacificlady

repetitive talking point

564 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:15:11pm

re: #551 Pacificlady

If this is about building bridges between people than they should build it somewhere else. As Canadian Muslims Raheel Raza and Tarek Fatah wrote: "We Muslims know that the idea behind the ground zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation to thumb our noses at the infidel." I believe them.

You know what? Canadians have no fucking right to comment on American law. You follow Palin right? She linked that article. So American!

565 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:21:01pm

re: #560 WindUpBird

macho zeta males who sit and munch doritos and read Spencer books in their darkened apartment and shiver in fear at the coming muslim hordes :D

Internet tough guys!

or new york post readers...............

566 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:37:13pm

re: #555 webs87

I agree. Krauthammer doesn't deny the Constitutional right to build the mosque, like Charles suggests. For him it boils down to "common decency and respect for the sacred." Charles completely misrepresents Krauthammer and quotes out of context.

Totally. We should also rip down the mosque that's already as close or closer as the planned community center. You know, respect for the sacred.

//

567 Solomon2  Sun, Aug 15, 2010 6:05:52am

""Krauthammer can’t possibly be ignorant of these facts. So why is he still repeating the falsehoods?"

"Krauthammer should just come out and say it if he thinks the government should try to stop Cordoba House from being built, instead of indulging in this creepy sideways populism."

The law permits Cordoba House to be built. That doesn't mean doing so is a good idea. Are you denying Krauthammer the right to voice his sensitivity to such a project?

Muslims should know that it will take only one Imam preaching there, claiming, "This is evidence of the success of our assault on America; our brand of Islam will conquer the world!" to create long-lasting anger and hatred between Muslims and non-Muslims in America.

Not all religions are created equal, nor do their followers necessarily follow the same ethics. Muslims are free to build Cordoba House. Whether they will actually support doing so is something else, for some may get the message that it isn't bigotry that opposes them, but grief and sensitivity. By their choice shall we judge them.

As George Washington wrote to the Jewish community of Newport, Rhode Island:

...happily, the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens...May the children of the stock of Abraham who dwell in this land continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other inhabitants while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and fig tree and there shall be none to make him afraid.

Amen.

568 webs87  Sun, Aug 15, 2010 6:17:57am

re: #558 tnguitarist

re: #558 tnguitarist

re: #558 tnguitarist

Why do you asshats always show up on dead threads? Some weird macho thing about getting the last word in? If you want to discuss something, come to a fresh thread.

How's the thread dead? It's one day old. Why would I come to a different thread when I want to comment on this particular Krauthammer article? I would actually would've like a response (not ad hominems), so it's not about a getting the last word in. For you and other "dead thread" enforcers here apparently it is about just that.

569 webs87  Sun, Aug 15, 2010 6:25:26am

re: #566 Aceofwhat?

Totally. We should also rip down the mosque that's already as close or closer as the planned community center. You know, respect for the sacred.

//

Why do you think mosque opponents don't advocate that?

570 webs87  Sun, Aug 15, 2010 6:33:22am

re: #556 Charles

And here we go again at the end of a dead thread.

If you want to declare a one-day old thread dead, then disable commenting. Usually blog posts and forum threads have a longer lifespan than a day, so you can't expect people to know that commenting the next day is taboo here.

571 tnguitarist  Sun, Aug 15, 2010 8:30:06am

re: #570 webs87

If you want to declare a one-day old thread dead, then disable commenting. Usually blog posts and forum threads have a longer lifespan than a day, so you can't expect people to know that commenting the next day is taboo here.

You know people aren't here, that's why you come here to comment. If you really want to discuss a particular topic, come to a fresh thread and say, "Hai guys, come join me in the Krauthammer thread for some spirited discussion!". Don't pretend you don't know what you're doing. By the way, did all you guys get a memo about the phrase ad hominem recently? I sure have been seeing it used quite a bit lately.

572 webs87  Sun, Aug 15, 2010 10:21:51am

re: #571 tnguitarist

You know people aren't here, that's why you come here to comment. If you really want to discuss a particular topic, come to a fresh thread and say, "Hai guys, come join me in the Krauthammer thread for some spirited discussion!". Don't pretend you don't know what you're doing.

No, I don't know that people aren't here. What is this like a physical room where you can see who's here and who's not? And obviously people are here, since there were several responses and not a single one actually addressed my comments. Don't pretend that a thread that's one day old and is on the front page is off limits to comments.

By the way, did all you guys get a memo about the phrase ad hominem recently? I sure have been seeing it used quite a bit lately.

Who is all you guys? You sound like a paranoid psychotic. Unlike you, I'm not part of a hive mind collective. I don't see thing in false dichotomies like you where it's us guys vs. you guys. I can think for myself. You apparently can't. You seek solace in a groupthink collective. Without it, you're lost.

573 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 15, 2010 10:35:43am

re: #567 Solomon2

Look up the word "prejudice" in the dictionary. This is exactly what you are doing.

574 Solomon2  Sun, Aug 15, 2010 11:29:28am

An opinion can't be prejudice if one can demonstrate it springs from informed, contextual, and reasoned judgment. Charles, I deduce there is something here you don't want to face.

575 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 15, 2010 11:31:15am

re: #574 Solomon2

An opinion can't be prejudice if one can demonstrate it springs from informed, contextual, and reasoned judgment. Charles, I deduce there is something here you don't want to face.

Your opinion is based on pure paranoia and prejudice. You've proved that over and over with your comments.

576 Solomon2  Sun, Aug 15, 2010 11:56:21am

Charles, I am only alive today because my grandparents sent my parents - children at the time - away from them and out of Germany days before WWII. (So do many such people who send their kids out of soon-to-be war zones.) Do you think that they were acting "based on pure paranoia and prejudice"? Where do YOU draw the line, exactly?

577 Pacificlady  Sun, Aug 15, 2010 1:00:10pm

re: Stanley Sea

I don't believe those Canadian Muslims were commenting about American law, rather they were commenting on the true intent behind building that mosque in that particular location; i.e., giving American the middle finger.

578 sam22  Sun, Aug 15, 2010 10:20:35pm

The 21st amendment actually gives states explicit power to regulate alcohol, so its a poor comparison to compare liquor shops and religious institutions.

579 Sacred Plants  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 1:09:16am

It's due time for this belated knowledge of self. That is precisely what this blog has been before the average half-life of the profound threads shrunk considerably, and the project devolved into "bike seat" threads nursing the sleepless. At that time Krauthammer stood out as significantly more scrupulous than your average garden variety body language artist, presumably due to a reflection of one's own wounds with a compassion quite unusual for a conservative. Whenever the spoiled crowd went too far with its anatomical fantasies he would draw them over the cliff, again and again. Among other things, the man observed how the so-called "intelligence community" would even torture the truth over the "Iranian Manhattan Project." Like so many, he learned that just because the 9/11 truthers are making stupid arguments it doesn't mean they hadn't got a point, as to the fact that as long as there is any such letal pathology as a right to exist for a caste of secret government officials those wounds can never heal properly. Why would we aspire to pursue a more open society than "Saudi" Arabia or Pakistan?

Since Krauthammer seems to be getting lost in historical and cultural analogies, here is in conservative-readable form what this boils down to:

President: Hi Intelligence Czar! Would you assure me that the gaga mosque is mostly harmless?
Intelligence Czar: *clicks heels* Yes we can! *crosses fingers behind back* But only if you feed my branch ever more and more taxpayer money!
President: I knew you would. What was that last part?
Intelligence Czar: Never mind. If you continue your ways we are working for you.
President: Great to hear. Now I know how to create jobs!
Intelligence Czar: And since we learnt from a sensible and reliable source that you are planning to take your family out for bathing to an undisclosed location this afternoon, I personally recommend to take a copy of the Reilly Statement on the D'Arcy Concession from the Archbold Letters with you for previous reading.
President: *blinks* Ah, libraries! I remember how I opened one years ago, with titles like that. The Chinese market is a huge challenge, isn't it?
Intelligence Czar: All that matters is that they don't listen to us just right now.
President: Good one! Serve me some pie!


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Once Praised, the Settlement to Help Sickened BP Oil Spill Workers Leaves Most With Nearly Nothing When a deadly explosion destroyed BP’s Deepwater Horizon drilling rig in the Gulf of Mexico, 134 million gallons of crude erupted into the sea over the next three months — and tens of thousands of ordinary people were hired ...
Cheechako
Yesterday
Views: 69 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
4 days ago
Views: 169 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1