President Obama’s Statement on the Cordoba House

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
US News • Fri Aug 13, 2010 at 11:46 pm PDT • Views: 1,184

The LA Times has the complete text of President Obama’s long-overdue statement on freedom of religion, the US Constitution, and the tide of prejudice that has risen up against the Cordoba House project and other mosques across the nation.

The White House posted the full video: Celebrating Ramadan at the White House.

Good evening. Welcome to the White House. To you, to Muslim Americans across our country, and to more than one billion Muslims around the world, I extend my best wishes on this holy month. Ramadan Kareem. I want to welcome members of the diplomatic corps; members of my administration; and Members of Congress, including Rush Holt, John Conyers, and Andre Carson, who is one of two Muslim American Members of Congress, along with Keith Ellison.

Here at the White House, we have a tradition of hosting iftars that goes back several years, just as we host Christmas parties, seders, and Diwali celebrations. These events celebrate the role of faith in the lives of the American people. They remind us of the basic truth that we are all children of God, and we all draw strength and a sense of purpose from our beliefs.
These events are also an affirmation of who we are as Americans. Our Founders understood that the best way to honor the place of faith in the lives of our people was to protect their freedom to practice religion. In the….

…Virginia Act for Establishing Religion Freedom, Thomas Jefferson wrote that “all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion.” The First Amendment of our Constitution established the freedom of religion as the law of the land. And that right has been upheld ever since.

Indeed, over the course of our history, religion has flourished within our borders precisely because Americans have had the right to worship as they choose – including the right to believe in no religion at all. And it is a testament to the wisdom of our Founders that America remains deeply religious – a nation where the ability of peoples of different faiths to coexist peacefully and with mutual respect for one another stands in contrast to the religious conflict that persists around the globe.

That is not to say that religion is without controversy. Recently, attention has been focused on the construction of mosques in certain communities – particularly in New York. Now, we must all recognize and respect the sensitivities surrounding the development of lower Manhattan. The 9/11 attacks were a deeply traumatic event for our country. The pain and suffering experienced by those who lost loved ones is unimaginable. So I understand the emotions that this issue engenders. Ground Zero is, indeed, hallowed ground.

But let me be clear: as a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country. That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances. This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable. The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country, and will not be treated differently by their government, is essential to who we are. The writ of our Founders must endure.

We must never forget those who we lost so tragically on 9/11, and we must always honor those who have led our response to that attack – from the firefighters who charged up smoke-filled staircases, to our troops who are serving in Afghanistan today. And let us always remember who we are fighting against, and what we are fighting for. Our enemies respect no freedom of religion. Al Qaeda’s cause is not Islam – it is a gross distortion of Islam. These are not religious leaders – these are terrorists who murder innocent men, women and children. In fact, al Qaeda has killed more Muslims than people of any other religion – and that list of victims includes innocent Muslims who were killed on 9/11.

That is who we are fighting against. And the reason that we will win this fight is not simply the strength of our arms – it is the strength of our values. The democracy that we uphold. The freedoms that we cherish. The laws that we apply without regard to race or religion; wealth or status. Our capacity to show not merely tolerance, but respect to those who are different from us – a way of life that stands in stark contrast to the nihilism of those who attacked us on that September morning, and who continue to plot against us today.

In my inaugural address, I said that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus — and non-believers. We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth. That diversity can bring difficult debates. Indeed, past eras have seen controversies about the construction of synagogues or Catholic churches. But time and again, the American people have demonstrated that we can work through these issues, stay true to our core values, and emerge stronger for it. So it must be – and will be – today.

Tonight, we are reminded that Ramadan is a celebration of a faith known for great diversity. And Ramadan is a reminder that Islam has always been part of America. The first Muslim ambassador to the United States, from Tunisia, was hosted by President Jefferson, who arranged a sunset dinner for his guest because it was Ramadan—making it the first known iftar at the White House, more than 200 years ago.

Like so many other immigrants, generations of Muslims came here to forge their future. They became farmers and merchants, worked in mills and factories, and helped lay the railroads. They helped build America. They founded the first Islamic center in New York City in the 1890s. They built America’s first mosque on the prairie of North Dakota. And perhaps the oldest surviving mosque in America—still in use today—is in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

Today, our nation is strengthened by millions of Muslim Americans. They excel in every walk of life. Muslim American communities—including mosques in all fifty states—also serve their neighbors. Muslim Americans protect our communities as police, firefighters and first responders. Muslim American clerics have spoken out against terror and extremism, reaffirming that Islam teaches that one must save human life, not take it. And Muslim Americans serve with honor in our military. At next week’s iftar at the Pentagon, tribute will be paid to three soldiers who gave their lives in Iraq and now rest among the heroes of Arlington National Cemetery.

These Muslim Americans died for the security that we depend upon, and the freedoms that we cherish. They are part of an unbroken line of Americans that stretches back to our Founding; Americans of all faiths who have served and sacrificed to extend the promise of America to new generations, and to ensure that what is exceptional about America is protected – our commitment to stay true to our core values, and our ability to perfect our union.

For in the end, we remain “one nation, under God, indivisible.” And we can only achieve “liberty and justice for all” if we live by that one rule at the heart of every religion, including Islam—that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

Thank you all for being here, and I wish you a blessed Ramadan. And with that, let’s eat.

Advertisement

766 comments

  • Comments do not necessarily reflect the views of Little Green Footballs.
  • Obscene, abusive, silly, or annoying remarks may be deleted, but the fact that particular comments remain on the site in no way constitutes an endorsement of their views by Little Green Footballs.
  • Posts that contain phone numbers, street addresses, email addresses or other personal information will also be deleted, as will posts that consist only of a variation on the word, "First!"
  • Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal.
  • Disagreement and debate are welcome, but insults and abuse are not, and may cause your account to be blocked.
  • REMEMBER: posting comments at LGF is a privilege, not a right. Abuse that privilege, and your account will be blocked.

Hide comments | Jump to bottom

1 simoom  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:51:37pm

WhiteHouse.gov has the video of the entire speech:
[Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]

2 Stonemason  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:53:33pm

I don't agree with much President Obama reads (yeah, just had to), but that was well done.

It is nice to see that some on the left

"...recognize and respect the sensitivities surrounding the development of lower Manhattan. The 9/11 attacks were a deeply traumatic event for our country. The pain and suffering experienced by those who lost loved ones is unimaginable. So I understand the emotions that this issue engenders. Ground Zero is, indeed, hallowed ground."

I guess recognizing the emotions is not quite the same as recogizing valid concerns, but at least the President didn't stand at that dinner and say:

Everyone who opposes the Park 51 project is a bigot, or a tool of bigots.

3 McSpiff  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:55:31pm

re: #2 Stonemason

I don't agree with much President Obama reads (yeah, just had to), but that was well done.

It is nice to see that some on the left

I guess recognizing the emotions is not quite the same as recogizing valid concerns, but at least the President didn't stand at that dinner and say:

Everyone who opposes the Park 51 project is a bigot, or a tool of bigots.

I would say in a case where all local zoning boards have had their say, after presumably some form of public consultations, that all that remains are emotions and not valid concerns.

4 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:57:32pm

I don't like that the Prez referred to ground zero as hallowed ground, but so be it.

On a related note, I'm on an email list on which a person has declared that the Imam behind the Mosque Two Blocks Away from Ground Zero, uses mosques as training grounds for jihadists. Of course, no links were provided. Anyone heard about this? It's quite the allegation.

5 freetoken  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:58:54pm

re: #4 eclectic infidel

... a person has declared that the Imam behind the Mosque Two Blocks Away from Ground Zero, uses mosques as training grounds for jihadists.

Go to any hate-right forum and one would thing that the Imam behind this project is the devil himself.

6 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:00:32am

re: #5 freetoken

Go to any hate-right forum and one would thing that the Imam behind this project is the devil himself.

The amusing part is that the one making the allegation is on the FAR-left, politically.

7 Stonemason  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:02:27am

re: #4 eclectic infidel

I don't like that the Prez referred to ground zero as hallowed ground, but so be it.

On a related note, I'm on an email list on which a person has declared that the Imam behind the Mosque Two Blocks Away from Ground Zero, uses mosques as training grounds for jihadists. Of course, no links were provided. Anyone heard about this? It's quite the allegation.

if that were the case it would have made the news. This guy as been researched top to bottom by opponents of the Center.

8 Stonemason  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:03:45am

re: #6 eclectic infidel

The amusing part is that the one making the allegation is on the FAR-left, politically.

Far left? Shoot, they should like him, he won't denounce Hamas as a terrorist organization.

9 freetoken  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:05:17am

re: #6 eclectic infidel

The amusing part is that the one making the allegation is on the FAR-left, politically.

Surprising, but not shockingly so. I guess I sympathize with Press Sec. Gibbs, in that some of the left are just professional demonstrators and trouble makers, just looking for any old cause.

10 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:06:35am

re: #6 eclectic infidel

The amusing part is that the one making the allegation is on the FAR-left, politically.

She's getting some weird stuff lately, though. Keeps talking about worries about sharia.

11 Jaerik  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:07:50am

Yeah, Mr. President, but I mean... come on.

12 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:08:10am

re: #7 Stonemason

if that were the case it would have made the news. This guy as been researched top to bottom by opponents of the Center.

I've requested links. If I get a response, I'll share with LGF.

13 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:10:21am

re: #10 SanFranciscoZionist

She's getting some weird stuff lately, though. Keeps talking about worries about sharia.

I've noticed that. Regardless, I'm going to remain vigilant and continue to oppose any involvement with protest against the community center. Besides, it's totally 'off topic.'

14 Expand Your Ground  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:11:44am

Ramadan kareen?

Are they going to have Kareem of Wheat for Iftar?

15 hutchrun  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:13:41am

If the cordoba house is acceptable, then do the right thing and accept Sharia law as well

16 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:14:17am

re: #8 Stonemason

Far left? Shoot, they should like him, he won't denounce Hamas as a terrorist organization.

No...different far left...damn...it's too late at night to explain...

17 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:15:45am

re: #12 eclectic infidel

I've requested links. If I get a response, I'll share with LGF.

I think she may mean it generically--radicals connected to mosques, connected to jihadis. I'm not sure there's meant to be direct connection between Rauf and jihadis. Or not.

I don't actually want to spend this much of my life thinking about a mosque in Manhattan. I don't live in Manhattan, and I'm not a Muslim. Why are they doing this to me again?

18 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:16:27am

re: #15 hutchrun

If the cordoba house is acceptable, then do the right thing and accept Sharia law as well

Wait. Does that mean because the Catholic church down the street is Ok, I should accept canon law?

19 Stonemason  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:16:34am

re: #16 SanFranciscoZionist

No...different far left...damn...it's too late at night to explain...

not a problem, I know that not all Democrats/lefties/progressives are the same.

20 hutchrun  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:16:57am

Imam Rauf raised no objections to official calls for suicide bombing in America and Israel.

Previously unpublished English translations of sermons from Malaysia’s Department of Islamic Development (JAKIM) reveal potentially lethal levels of hostility towards the West that appear to have gone unnoticed. The Department of Islamic Development cannot be dismissed as some renegade fringe group. It is an official and intrinsic part of the Malaysian government, similar in function to the Department of Health and Human Services in the United States.
[Link: www.malaysia-today.net...]

21 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:16:59am

re: #19 Stonemason

not a problem, I know that not all Democrats/lefties/progressives are the same.

This is just a bizarre situation. Sorry if I'm babbling.

22 JamesWI  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:17:01am

re: #15 hutchrun

Clicked on that guy's name, and shocker - class of 2004

23 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:18:00am

re: #20 hutchrun

Imam Rauf raised no objections to official calls for suicide bombing in America and Israel.

Previously unpublished English translations of sermons from Malaysia’s Department of Islamic Development (JAKIM) reveal potentially lethal levels of hostility towards the West that appear to have gone unnoticed. The Department of Islamic Development cannot be dismissed as some renegade fringe group. It is an official and intrinsic part of the Malaysian government, similar in function to the Department of Health and Human Services in the United States.
[Link: www.malaysia-today.net...]

Wait. Now Imam Rauf is supposed to respond to statements made by the Malaysian government? Did the State Department say anything to Malaysia?

24 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:18:22am

I'm having mosque overload.

25 HoosierHoops  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:18:52am

re: #22 JamesWI

Clicked on that guy's name, and shocker - class of 2004

Yup..What a surprise...

26 freetoken  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:19:36am

re: #20 hutchrun

Hehe... running a PJM story at LGF... what will they think of next?

27 hutchrun  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:20:09am

"Wait. Does that mean because the Catholic church down the street is Ok, I should accept canon law?"

Damn apples and oranges.
Since when were catholics and islam the same. You still learning the differences looks like.

28 hutchrun  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:21:00am

"I'm having mosque overload."

`ang on...you`ll make muezzin yet

29 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:21:25am

re: #15 hutchrun

If the cordoba house is acceptable, then do the right thing and accept Sharia law as well

Congrats. You've won first place for dumbest comment this early in the morning.

30 freetoken  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:21:44am

re: #20 hutchrun

Heh, I've never written anything about condemning JAKIM either... ergo I'm a terrorist?

31 freetoken  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:22:28am

re: #29 eclectic infidel

And it was only 13 minutes into the morning, at least out here in the left-coast.

32 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:22:34am

re: #25 HoosierHoops

There's a point I want to make about Maliki School of Sharia Law and English Common Law. Will I get bitten if I try and make the point?

33 HoosierHoops  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:23:13am

re: #24 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm having mosque overload.

Hey you.. I woke up awhile ago having experienced the worst nightmare of life..I'm still shook up..It's 2:20am here..I'll go to sleep soon...But jeez..Where did that dream come from? I felt wide awake during it...
Think I'll just hang awhile here...6 more hours I'm heading back to Indiana

34 hutchrun  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:23:18am

re: #20 hutchrun
Hehe... running a PJM story at LGF... what will they think of next?

Do i say "ignoramus" then? It appears in a Islamic Malaysia blog.

35 JamesWI  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:23:22am

re: #30 freetoken

Heh, I've never written anything about condemning JAKIM either... ergo I'm a terrorist?

I've never written anything condemning the government of Burma/Myanmar. You may now assume that I support the junta.

36 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:23:37am

re: #27 hutchrun

"Wait. Does that mean because the Catholic church down the street is Ok, I should accept canon law?"

Damn apples and oranges.
Since when were catholics and islam the same. You still learning the differences looks like.

Want to tell me the difference? Wait...I think I know this one...

Catholics eat bacon!!!

Do I win a prize?

(Sorry, I ran out of my Special Elul Calm in the last thread. We're back to plain snark now.)

37 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:24:22am

re: #28 hutchrun

"I'm having mosque overload."

`ang on...you`ll make muezzin yet

I can't sing, and I can't project my voice without coughing...and if there are lady muezzins, I think they should at least be Muslim.

38 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:25:12am

re: #30 freetoken

Heh, I've never written anything about condemning JAKIM either... ergo I'm a terrorist?

This reminds me of my argument for why I should get a Nobel Peace Prize. They gave one to Arafat for failing to make peace in the Middle East. I have also not made peace in the Middle East, and I've killed many fewer people in the process.

GIMME MY NOBEL!!!

39 hutchrun  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:25:28am

"Heh, I've never written anything about condemning JAKIM either... ergo I'm a terrorist?"

You weren`t working at JAKIM either. But I do hope you achieve your aspirations in beoming one.

40 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:26:02am

re: #32 ProLifeLiberal

There's a point I want to make about Maliki School of Sharia Law and English Common Law. Will I get bitten if I try and make the point?

Possibly. We're all a little wacky right now. Can you give us a hint?

41 freetoken  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:26:09am

re: #34 hutchrun

re: #20 hutchrun
Hehe... running a PJM story at LGF... what will they think of next?

Do i say "ignoramus" then? It appears in a Islamic Malaysia blog.

Did you read the line where they credited the source, at the top of the article? Look:

Imam Rauf raised no objections to official calls for suicide bombing in America and Israel.

Previously unpublished English translations of sermons from Malaysia’s Department of Islamic Development (JAKIM) reveal potentially lethal levels of hostility towards the West that appear to have gone unnoticed. The Department of Islamic Development cannot be dismissed as some renegade fringe group. It is an official and intrinsic part of the Malaysian government, similar in function to the Department of Health and Human Services in the United States.

Pajamas Media

Evidence continues to mount showing that the developer of the proposed mega-mosque at Ground Zero, Abdul Faisal Rauf, is untrustworthy at best, and possibly downright dangerous. The project would be called Cordoba House, named for a Spanish city conquered by the Moors which Muslims regard as a model for other communities.

I bold faced it for you. Oh, and the link at the bottom where it says "READ MORE HERE"???

Geez...

42 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:26:32am

re: #33 HoosierHoops

Hey you.. I woke up awhile ago having experienced the worst nightmare of life..I'm still shook up..It's 2:20am here..I'll go to sleep soon...But jeez..Where did that dream come from? I felt wide awake during it...
Think I'll just hang awhile here...6 more hours I'm heading back to Indiana

Sorry to hear that. Try to shake it off. Hang with us until you feel better.

43 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:27:01am

re: #34 hutchrun

re: #20 hutchrun
Hehe... running a PJM story at LGF... what will they think of next?

Do i say "ignoramus" then? It appears in a Islamic Malaysia blog.

What appears in an Islamic Malaysian blog?

44 hutchrun  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:27:33am

"I can't sing, and I can't project my voice without coughing...and if there are lady muezzins, I think they should at least be Muslim."

Now why should that be a problem. No one says you must have a lovely voice.

45 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:28:32am

re: #15 hutchrun

If the cordoba house is acceptable, then do the right thing and accept Sharia law as well

Just go away.

46 SpaceJesus  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:28:58am

re: #33 HoosierHoops

was MEGA MOSQUE chasing you?

47 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:29:05am

The bigots are frisky tonight.

48 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:29:29am

re: #39 hutchrun

"Heh, I've never written anything about condemning JAKIM either... ergo I'm a terrorist?"

You weren`t working at JAKIM either. But I do hope you achieve your aspirations in beoming one.

Rauf was a JAKIM employee? During what time? Links?

49 SpaceJesus  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:29:45am

wrap it up obama, you were just a con law professor, you don't know what you're talking about

50 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:30:08am

re: #44 hutchrun

"I can't sing, and I can't project my voice without coughing...and if there are lady muezzins, I think they should at least be Muslim."

Now why should that be a problem. No one says you must have a lovely voice.

Don't you have to be audible from the top of the minaret, though?

51 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:30:09am

re: #48 SanFranciscoZionist

Ze troll is gone now.

52 freetoken  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:30:33am

re: #47 Charles

Yes they are.

This topic certainly hits their hot button.

53 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:30:51am

re: #47 Charles

The bigots are frisky tonight.

They certainly are.

54 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:31:59am

Here's one of the banned troll's ancient gems:

In my house there used to be a copy of the Marmaduke Pickhall translation of the Koran which my dad had picked up about 50 years ago. We burnt it `cos of the bad luck it brought.

55 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:32:01am

And I am gone as well. Gooodnight.

56 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:32:06am

re: #50 SanFranciscoZionist

Don't you have to be audible from the top of the minaret, though?

I guess with electric amplification it doesn't matter so much.

57 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:32:26am

re: #55 eclectic infidel

And I am gone as well. Gooodnight.

Night.

58 SpaceJesus  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:32:37am

well, this story being published can mean only one thing at this time of night: time to troll the shit out of free republic before bed.

59 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:33:28am

re: #54 goddamnedfrank

Here's one of the banned troll's ancient gems:

Was the Marmaduke Pickhall translation really that bad?

60 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:34:13am

Well, Charles, why didn't you just call this post "President Obama's Seeekrit Moooslim Nirth-Certifikit Confession" and be done with it?

And by the way, I defended Karl Marx as a human being on the last thread.

I guess that's it for both of us Tranzi Progs. We're on the list.

61 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:38:53am

re: #15 hutchrun

That has been some thought I have heard of that English Common Law is very heavily influenced by the North African Maliki school of Sharia law. This a result of the Normans taking Sicily back over a thousand years ago, and adopting a very modified form of it. It would later appear in England, after William the Conquerer took over England sometime later. I'm proud of my ancestor's (the Norse) influence in creating English Common Law.

Sources:
Gaudiosi (April 1988). "The Influence of the Islamic Law of Waqf on the Development of the Trust in England_ The Case of Merton College". University of Pennsylvania Law Review (The University of Pennsylvania Law Review) 136 (4): 1231–1261. doi:10.2307/3312162. [Link: jstor.org...]

Makdisi, John A. (June 1999). "The Islamic Origins of the Common Law". North Carolina Law Review 77 (5): 1635–1739.

62 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:41:58am

All I can say is, this better be one AMAZING mosque. I'm so tired of talking about it, and it hasn't even started being built yet.

63 freetoken  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:42:53am

re: #62 SanFranciscoZionist

I thought it wasn't even really a mosque, but a multi-purpose community center that included as a small part of it a mosque/prayer-room. Am I wrong?

64 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:43:20am

re: #61 ProLifeLiberal

There has been some thought I have heard of that English Common Law is very heavily influenced by the North African Maliki school of Sharia law. This a result of the Normans taking Sicily back over a thousand years ago, and adopting a very modified form of it. It would later appear in England, after William the Conquerer took over England sometime later. I'm proud of my ancestors' (the Norse) influence in creating English Common Law.

Sources:
Gaudiosi (April 1988). "The Influence of the Islamic Law of Waqf on the Development of the Trust in England_ The Case of Merton College". University of Pennsylvania Law Review (The University of Pennsylvania Law Review) 136 (4): 1231–1261. doi:10.2307/3312162. [Link: jstor.org...]

Makdisi, John A. (June 1999). "The Islamic Origins of the Common Law". North Carolina Law Review 77 (5): 1635–1739.

I really should re-read what I type before it gets posted.

65 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:44:24am

any more right wing shutins for the evening? Or have they all tired themselves out?

66 Nimed  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:46:11am

Amazing how I really couldn't care less about the mosque when this nontroversy started. Now, thanks to the general wingnuttery, I feel like I want to start erecting the damn building myself tomorrow.

67 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:47:01am
Indeed, over the course of our history, religion has flourished within our borders precisely because Americans have had the right to worship as they choose – including the right to believe in no religion at all. And it is a testament to the wisdom of our Founders that America remains deeply religious – a nation where the ability of peoples of different faiths to coexist peacefully and with mutual respect for one another stands in contrast to the religious conflict that persists around the globe.

Can I get an "amen" (amayn, ameen) here?

68 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:48:23am

Some fun stuff from Hot Air

Does anyone care to guess at which time and date our …Obama will announce his conversion to the Religion of Peace,iss?


You know if someone suggested building a museum celebrating American ingenuity in constructing the atom bomb and suggested putting it right next the site where the bomb detonated in Nagasaki, I would say they were sick and vicious.

The Cordoba Mosque is no different.

I am an atheist, but the difference between the two couldn’t be more clear, or obvious. I would rather live in a Christian country than any other!

We have King Hussein Louie Obama and Queen Michelle Antoinette and an Executive Department run by unaccountable Czars ( a word derived from “Caesar”.) Both Houses act as if they are the House of Lords – the will of the people be damned! These are our “representatives”? They do what they want to do. The third branch – the Judiciary – is packed with more scoundrels who consider the law to be whatever they say it is, when they say it is. I posit that however bad it was, the government of George III was better than what we have now. If the Founders had a crystal ball and had looked 230 years into the future, they wouldn’t have bothered

This Traitor in Chief is unbelievable.

I’m going to go put on my red heels, click them together, and say, “There’s no place like 2012. There’s no place like 2012″ and see if I wake up in a free United States of America with a real leader.

69 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:48:51am

re: #66 Nimed

Amazing how I really couldn't care less about the mosque when this nontroversy started. Now, thanks to the general wingnuttery, I feel like I want to start erecting the damn building myself tomorrow.

There are a lot of really REALLY stupid americans on the internet :D

70 SpaceJesus  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:49:30am

lol freep

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

71 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:49:42am

A little bit of joking about beheading Obama from some Hotair commenter...


It’s quite civilized, really, as long as you don’t mind going around headless.

hillbillyjim on August 14, 2010 at 12:47 AM

Sink me, but that is really not much of a fashion statement, now is it? Although, I must grant, in the case of King Hussein Louie and Michelle Antoinette, it would be a bloody fine improvement.

PercyB on August 14, 2010 at 12:57 AM

72 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:50:14am

re: #70 SpaceJesus

ahaha the 9/11 truck, Jalopnik loves manking fun of that thing

73 SpaceJesus  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:51:13am

re: #72 WindUpBird


~*Revolution-Mobile*~

74 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:51:34am

This is the craziest one I've found so far:

I promise to go wash my own keyboard and mouth out with soap after this! LOL

And you’re right, Maobama is both a Muslim and a Marxist.
Islam and Communism/Marxism been allied before for a long time; you have only to look at Iran’s biggest ally, which is Russia.
And Yassir Arafat and the PLO were a client state of the former USSR.
Hitler (Naziism is Leftist, also) was allied with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem before that.

Jenfidel on August 14, 2010 at 1:11 AM


yeah, I love me some paranoid crazy

75 HoosierHoops  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:52:02am

Goodnight Lizards...

76 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:52:37am

re: #73 SpaceJesus

~*Revolution-Mobile*~

Runs on Saudi gas! The irony adds another 10 octane so you can use the race fuel setting

77 SpaceJesus  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:53:06am

re: #74 WindUpBird


oh yeah, those chechneyans and those afghanis just loved the ussr

78 Nimed  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:53:10am

re: #63 freetoken

I thought it wasn't even really a mosque, but a multi-purpose community center that included as a small part of it a mosque/prayer-room. Am I wrong?

Maybe, the plans should be revised the plans in order to make a statement. Let's instead build a freaking humongous mosque. The largest in the world, with minarets higher than the Empire State.

79 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:53:13am

re: #63 freetoken

I thought it wasn't even really a mosque, but a multi-purpose community center that included as a small part of it a mosque/prayer-room. Am I wrong?

No, you're correct. But all anyone seems to care about is the prayer room. Except for some dude a couple of threads back who's worried they won't have mixed adult swim so he can look at women in swimsuits.

80 freetoken  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:53:18am

re: #74 WindUpBird

And you’re right, Maobama is both a Muslim and a Marxist.

Every time I see this (and it is not uncommon) my eyes just glaze over and I realize just how stupid people can be.

81 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:54:11am

re: #66 Nimed

Amazing how I really couldn't care less about the mosque when this nontroversy started. Now, thanks to the general wingnuttery, I feel like I want to start erecting the damn building myself tomorrow.

I know just how you feel.

82 SpaceJesus  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:54:32am

300 some comments into this story and freep is still trying to decide whether obama is a free mason, or a muslim, or if it's possible to be both

83 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:54:58am

AHAHAHAHAHA

Ben Quayle is a prophet

faraway on August 14, 2010 at 1:41 AM

God, Hot Air commenters are the best, it's sort of that weird pearl-clutching earnest hysteria, mixed with some racism, mixed with the sort of dullard wit you get in Youtube comments

84 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:55:21am

re: #82 SpaceJesus

300 some comments into this story and freep is still trying to decide whether obama is a free mason, or a muslim, or if it's possible to be both

Well, there's actally two Obamas, he was a set of twins

85 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:56:28am

re: #82 SpaceJesus

300 some comments into this story and freep is still trying to decide whether obama is a free mason, or a muslim, or if it's possible to be both

What do you think?

86 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:57:09am

re: #80 freetoken

Every time I see this (and it is not uncommon) my eyes just glaze over and I realize just how stupid people can be.

I worked with people in health care who were this dumb. But! They weren't political for the most part. Too busy doing meth or drunk-driving or screaming at their boy/girlfriends on the phone

Imagining people that dumb AND involved in politics, and it's all clear to me now !

87 SpaceJesus  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:57:37am
88 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:57:40am

re: #85 SanFranciscoZionist

What do you think?

Definitely an android sent from the dark future by NeoIranians to cnage the past

89 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:58:06am

The problem is that my little activist mailing list, everyone's getting all upset about it now, and I'm reminding myself that they don't read LGF, and that when someone says, "It's triumphalist!", it's not going to make sense when I scream "DEBUNKED TALKING POINT!!!"

90 SpaceJesus  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:59:54am

re: #85 SanFranciscoZionist


hidden communist kenyan 12th imam foretold in the reaganomicon

91 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:00:25am
Either that, or the First Charter Member of the Wholly Unholy Church of Me the Barack.


btw, where are the photos/videos of this warm and wonderful Ramadan Dinner?

Held at the WH, on our dime, AGAIN, I would like to see, hear and know ALL about it. Let’s start with the guest list, shall we???



Seriously now, it seems the Americans would do well to reconsider the meaning of the Establishment Clause. I understand it was intended to limit the Congress, so the States would be free to establish State Churches. So we’ll just let each of the fifty States decide whether they want to be a Sanctuary State for the Sura 9:5 crowd
.

92 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:00:45am

re: #90 SpaceJesus

hidden communist kenyan 12th imam foretold in the reaganomicon

A storm of ravens will herald his arrival

93 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:03:04am

re: #91 WindUpBird

These were more Hot Air comments


here's some more!

well thank you Mr. President for clearing that up.

YOU want a monument to Muslim victory over America to be erected…and dedicated on 9/11/2011…the 10 year anniversary of that victory.

thanks for clearing that up.

tic…tic…tic…


Well said, and well done.

The Ground Zero Cordoba MEGA Mosque is similar to U.S. Marines victoriously raising the flag on Iwo Jima, or a dog triumphantly marking its territory. Make no mistake about it, that is what the Ground Zero Cordoba MEGA Mosque is.

It is so obvious to anyone not interested in finding an excuse to tolerate this sh*t.

I guess you have to be Harvard-educated, and Alinsky-indoctrinated, to understand this sort of blind ignorance.


America is full of so many fools, just wickedly stupid people

94 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:04:24am

What is up with the trolls' inability to use the quote function properly?

95 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:05:48am

The President has spoken, and spoken straight to the point.

Let the harpies shriek!

96 spiderx  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:09:20am

is there a more cynical outlet than Politico?

here's their headline

OBAMA STANDS UP FOR GROUND ZERO MOSQUE

[Link: www.politico.com...]

I'm sorry but Politico isn't a site where journalism takes place. It's far more sinister.

Because as most people have stated. This community center is not at Ground Zero. It's 2 blocks away (There's already a mosque 4 blocks away that has been there for decades) So Obama didn't stand up for a ground zero mosque or any mosque for that matter.

politico headline should read

PRESIDENT OBAMA STANDS UP AGAINST RELIGIOUS BIGOTRY

97 ClaudeMonet  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:11:41am

re: #33 HoosierHoops

Hey you.. I woke up awhile ago having experienced the worst nightmare of life..I'm still shook up..It's 2:20am here..I'll go to sleep soon...But jeez..Where did that dream come from? I felt wide awake during it...
Think I'll just hang awhile here...6 more hours I'm heading back to Indiana

I warned you about trying to live in Oklahoma. It can be a nightmare in and of itself.

98 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:12:35am

re: #96 spiderx

Yeah, Politico is just naked shit, it's basically the Drudge model with a slicker Web 2.0 sheen and more functionality. The soot-belching low HP Drudge Engine, but with a nice body kit and phat rims

99 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:13:03am

re: #91 WindUpBird

Holy Crap.

100 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:15:26am

Is it just my imagination, or are there far too many people working far too hard to figure out some way around having to live in a free country, without actually having to move somewhere inconvenient?

101 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:15:50am

And am I the only person who misses having Steve here, telling us that we don't count, and what we're talking about is stupid?

102 SpaceJesus  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:16:56am

was albusteve banned?

103 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:18:59am

re: #102 SpaceJesus

was albusteve banned?

Surgery

104 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:33:42am

re: #103 tnguitarist

Surgery

Getting the leg taken off. We're standing by for news.

105 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:39:26am

re: #96 spiderx

is there a more cynical outlet than Politico?

here's their headline

OBAMA STANDS UP FOR GROUND ZERO MOSQUE

[Link: www.politico.com...]

I'm sorry but Politico isn't a site where journalism takes place. It's far more sinister.

Because as most people have stated. This community center is not at Ground Zero. It's 2 blocks away (There's already a mosque 4 blocks away that has been there for decades) So Obama didn't stand up for a ground zero mosque or any mosque for that matter.

politico headline should read

PRESIDENT OBAMA STANDS UP AGAINST RELIGIOUS BIGOTRY

Well, but that would mean going up against Shrieks and the Poison Dwarf.

Can't do that if we're "conservative", can we?

106 boredtechindenver  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:41:35am

Steve, i know you can't see this, and when you get back it will be too far back to read. You are in my prayers. I may not always agree with you politically, footbally, or musically, but you are a contributor that makes LGF, and the community here, what it is. Even at your old man, most cantankerous, male menopausal, you are yourself. I pray your surgery and your recovery went/go well and you are back here annoying the fuck out of me soonest.

most sincerely,

Boredtechindenver

107 SpaceJesus  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:42:41am

re: #61 ProLifeLiberal


common law comes from the old dane law. some roman law. that's it.

saying a jury trial is an islamic invention that the english borrowed is a big load of crap.

108 freetoken  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:29:52am
109 freetoken  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:34:00am
110 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:35:33am

re: #107 SpaceJesus

common law comes from the old dane law. some roman law. that's it.

saying a jury trial is an islamic invention that the english borrowed is a big load of crap.

Ahem.

You may be the Lord for the Universe and all, but you might want to talk to an old undead Roman before you start ranking law codes.

Just sayin'.

111 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:54:08am

Obama can make all the fine statements he wants but this mosque thing will hurt him politically.

& Ramadan at the White House = one term president with no Congress for the last two years.

You can bet on that.

112 windsagio  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 3:07:11am

re: #111 Ojoe

Obama can make all the fine statements he wants but this mosque thing will hurt him politically.

& Ramadan at the White House = one term president with no Congress for the last two years.

You can bet on that.

So do you believe most americans are bigots, or are you just hoping?

113 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 3:14:40am

re: #112 windsagio

They are, look at the news. I'm just stating. & we're in a religious war. You and I may chose to stand aside, but the thing has momentum & will play itself out.

114 Expand Your Ground  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 3:16:08am

Dang and Iftar-nation!!!re: #27 hutchrun

Dang and Iftar-nation!!!Dang and Iftar-nation!!!re: #27 hutchrun

They are not the same, but in under the Constitution they are to be accorded equal treatment.

115 TheMatrix31  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 3:22:19am

re: #104 SanFranciscoZionist

Getting the leg taken off. We're standing by for news.

Probably not the best choice of words.

116 Expand Your Ground  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 3:29:27am

re: #111 Ojoe

Obama can make all the fine statements he wants but this mosque thing will hurt him politically.

& Ramadan at the White House = one term president with no Congress for the last two years.

You can bet on that.


No, it will certainly serve to reinforce the opinoins of those who are against him already for whatever reasons, but it will not cost him support among any Americans who are able to think.

117 TheMatrix31  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 3:31:19am

re: #116 ralphieboy

No, it will certainly serve to reinforce the opinoins of those who are against him already for whatever reasons, but it will not cost him support among any Americans who are able to think.

So if I'm against him already but don't really give a shit about this issue, am I still unable to think?

118 steve_davis  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 3:34:14am

re: #84 WindUpBird

re: #84 WindUpBird

Well, there's actally two Obamas, he was a set of twins

Yes, but remember that it was the other twin that was born in Hawaii. "Our" twin is pure Kenyan, my friends!!

119 windsagio  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 3:38:39am

re: #113 Ojoe

Well certain people sure want us to be in a religious war. It's a really bad idea to encourage them tho'.

120 TheMatrix31  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 3:47:04am

Night.

121 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 3:49:07am

I thought the president put it really well by bringing up that Muslims have been in this countries for years and brought up that there are Muslim Americans serving in uniform right now. Didn't know that bit about Jefferson and the Tunisian ambassador. Of course there will be some that will read this speech and use it as their proof that Obama is a sekrit Muslim.

122 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 4:06:15am

re: #116 ralphieboy

No, it will certainly serve to reinforce the opinoins of those who are against him already for whatever reasons, but it will not cost him support among any Americans who are able to think.

If elections were won by persuading those who are able to think, politics would look a lot different.

123 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 4:26:48am

re: #101 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, no. I miss him too.

124 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 4:58:31am

re: #104 SanFranciscoZionist

Getting the leg taken off. We're standing by for news.

We're gonna start calling him "ILENE".

125 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:01:00am

I'll tell you what. That boy is gonna' give me his first Super Bowl ring.

126 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:02:03am

re: #125 MandyManners

Nah, but at some point he'll look into the camera and say, "Hi Mom!".

That'll be enough.

Well, that and a new house.

127 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:03:57am

re: #126 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Nah, but at some point he'll look into the camera and say, "Hi Mom!".

That'll be enough.

Well, that and a new house.

*smooch*

A house with a room with no windows dedicated to nothing but sleep.

128 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:06:15am

re: #127 MandyManners

Mandy, my son played football from age 6 to 12. Practice was only 10 minutes from home... but I never went home. Stayed and watched the practices... something poetic about watching your son stand over a guy he just pancaked...

(*wipes away tear*)

129 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:06:44am

I let him get a high-and-tight haircut yesterday. He is PUMPED.

I'm thinking of feeding him raw Porterhouse for breakfast.

Testosterone: it's a wild thing.

130 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:09:24am

re: #129 MandyManners

Well, a lot of bad smells come with it.

High and tight... he'll want a mohawk at some point. I promise you, he'll regret it one day and blame you.

131 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:09:31am

Well that was an excellent speech.

It went way over the heads of the freedom loving group though, from what I can tell of the crazy comments posted.

First time ever that I can't sleep, wtf.

132 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:11:31am

re: #131 Stanley Sea

Have you thought of watching CSPAN?

133 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:13:07am

re: #132 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Have you thought of watching CSPAN?

I gave up, on my first cup of coffee now. I'll be napping later I'm sure.

Amazing how this never happens when I have to get up.

134 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:14:47am

re: #133 Stanley Sea

Woke up at 6...

DAMN YOU OBAMA!!!

Wait...

135 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:14:50am

re: #128 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Mandy, my son played football from age 6 to 12. Practice was only 10 minutes from home... but I never went home. Stayed and watched the practices... something poetic about watching your son stand over a guy he just pancaked...

(*wipes away tear*)

He has a new rallying cry: FULL-TILT BOOGIE!

The biggest kick is his fascination with Tim Tebow, BRONCO. He has those eye-black patches, the ones Tebow writes scripture on. Six-freakin'-dollars for 10. I finally got smart and hid them. I'll let him have them this morning.

136 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:17:21am

re: #135 MandyManners

There are worse people out there for him to be fascinated with.

Of course, there are millions of people who hope Tim's caught snorting coke off of a dead female hookers tits.

137 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:17:30am

re: #130 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Well, a lot of bad smells come with it.

High and tight... he'll want a mohawk at some point. I promise you, he'll regret it one day and blame you.

He can blame me all he wants some day. Heck, that'll be a full-time job at some point. But, I can take it. I'm a mom.

aaarrrggghhh

Toss me some raw meat.

138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:22:06am

re: #137 MandyManners

When the boy decided he didn't want to play anymore?... my wife mourned for a month.

139 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 6:20:55am

tap..tap..tap

Where is everyone?

140 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 6:22:45am

re: #139 Stanley Sea

Oh, going to work...

Later, taters!

141 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 6:34:20am

re: #137 MandyManners

He can blame me all he wants some day. Heck, that'll be a full-time job at some point. But, I can take it. I'm a mom.

aaarrrggghhh

Toss me some raw meat.

Here's some Gamey Buttocks from the troll Charles clubbed. I've got the rest of the troll on the grill now.

142 mr.fusion  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 6:41:11am

I forget where I read/heard this analogy but I find it very fitting...

Just wondering how the Ground Zero-ish Community Center Haters feel about the confederate flag on the South Carolina state flag?

143 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 6:45:51am

This was my favorite part..

And with that, let’s eat.
144 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 6:50:20am

re: #142 mr.fusion

Just wondering how the Ground Zero-ish Community Center Haters feel about the confederate flag on the South Carolina state flag?

Oh, they're all for it because it's only a historical and cultural symbol and if you think it's racist you're just an overly sensitive pinko commie librul.

145 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 6:51:06am

Good Morning LGF.
Nice speech by President Obama.

146 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 6:52:30am

I think it was a fine speech. Obama asked WWTJD and the answer was clear.

147 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 6:54:38am

re: #146 Mich-again

I think it was a fine speech. Obama asked WWTJD and the answer was clear.

True. Absent a violation of the law (and there isn't one), the PArk51 project has to be allowed.

148 jordash1212  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:01:35am

For the wingnuts and the ignorant this will become proof that he is really a Muslim and an Al-Qaeda operative. Not that they needed convincing...

149 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:02:56am

re: #107 SpaceJesus

Well, others say otherwise, so I'll respectfully disagree.

150 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:06:21am

re: #148 jordash1212

For the wingnuts and the ignorant this will become proof that he is really a Muslim and an Al-Qaeda operative.

Oh, they're already in full paranoid rant mode about it. Just check the link in post #70. It's both hilarious and frightening that people really are that ignorant.

151 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:10:43am

A sample of some TJ quotes.

"The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1819. ME 19:416

"I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring
about a legal ascendency of one sect over another." --Thomas
Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799.

"Politics, like religion, holds up the torches of martyrdom to the reformers of error." --Thomas Jefferson to James Ogilvie, 1811. ME 13:68

There are so many great quotes out there from Jefferson. I can get sidetracked pretty easy at this site of TJ3 quotes. (I think that last one explains why the wingnuts hate Charles so much.)

152 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:11:50am

re: #150 Lidane

Oh, they're already in full paranoid rant mode about it. Just check the link in post #70. It's both hilarious and frightening that people really are that ignorant.

Freepers Creepers, that's nasty stuff.

153 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:16:09am

re: #150 Lidane

Is that Pam's pickup truck?

154 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:21:17am

While I respect the constitutional right for this community center/mosque to be built and I have no problem with it, considering the lack of support (right or wrong) by certain segments of the public, this statement and position by the president will almost certainly assure GOP wins in November 2010.

155 Tigger2005  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:24:23am

re: #27 hutchrun

"Wait. Does that mean because the Catholic church down the street is Ok, I should accept canon law?"

Damn apples and oranges.
Since when were catholics and islam the same. You still learning the differences looks like.

We are well aware here at LGF that Islam in its current state is not as well adapted to modern, pluralistic, democratic society as many other faiths. But the way to reform Islam is to encourage those Muslims who seek to promote tolerance, reject violent jihad, accept separation of church and state, and so on.

Frankly, it seems to me that most of those objecting to the Park51 project have forgotten all about the religious freedom and separation of church and state enshrined in that Constitution they claim to love so much. Seems to me they're all for religious freedom...as long as those Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Wiccans, atheists and others damn well understand it's really the Christians who are in charge!

156 Tigger2005  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:27:15am

re: #154 Walter L. Newton

While I respect the constitutional right for this community center/mosque to be built and I have no problem with it, considering the lack of support (right or wrong) by certain segments of the public, this statement and position by the president will almost certainly assure GOP wins in November 2010.

So, he should adopt the position of the bigots, in order to keep the bigots out of office?

I'd rather he challenge the moral conscience of the nation, challenge us to set our sights higher. That's what leaders do.

157 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:27:44am

re: #154 Walter L. Newton

While I respect the constitutional right for this community center/mosque to be built and I have no problem with it, considering the lack of support (right or wrong) by certain segments of the public, this statement and position by the president will almost certainly assure GOP wins in November 2010.

Concur. though those wins may hurt the GOP in the long run.

158 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:28:28am

re: #154 Walter L. Newton

While I respect the constitutional right for this community center/mosque to be built and I have no problem with it, considering the lack of support (right or wrong) by certain segments of the public, this statement and position by the president will almost certainly assure GOP wins in November 2010.

I was waiting for this take. Seen it other places too.

When you are voting this November, you will be voting for someone you want to represent you in Washington. What in the world does the President's view on a NYC building issue (and a religious tolerance issue) have to do with your representation? Nothing. Idiotic.

159 SeafoodGumbo  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:31:51am

Has it been proven that there is no Saudi funding behind this mosque?

A big part of the "soft" Saudi jihad against America is funding mosques and schools in this country. How do we know that Saudi hate ideology won't fill the Ground Zero mosque? Radical Islamic influence in American mosques is a serious problem.

When probably 85% of the mosques in this country are under extremist leadership and probably a third or something of Muslims in America support Islamic extremism, we should know who is funding the mosque.

160 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:32:10am

Charles:

Notice he's defending the constitution. Unconditionally. He's not imploring Muslims to show "restraint" and move the cultural center/ mosque, further away so as not to offend people.

Unlike Imam Rauf, who, when South Park made a silly, harmless cartoon, wrote that the American media must show "restraint" so as not to offend Muslims.

161 captdiggs  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:35:17am

re: #151 Mich-again

Yes, Jefferson was in a unique position, having actually met with muslims in an attempt to understand its imperialistic nature.

"In 1786, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams sat down with Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja, the Tripolitan ambassador to Britain, to discuss the unprovoked attacks of the Barbary pirates on American ships. Jefferson and Adams were understandably confused as to the motivation for the pirates to attack American ships when the Americans had no quarrel with them. They recorded Ambassador Adja's response to their inquiries; in a letter to Congress, Jefferson and Adams noted "that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise." The justification contained in this passage never mentions economic goods like oil or political issues like Israel, most notably because the first was not relevant at the time and the second did not exist. The central driver of the war was the religious duty of Muslims to subjugate the infidels. "
[Link: www.forbes.com...]

162 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:37:24am

re: #159 SeafoodGumbo

Has it been proven that there is no Saudi funding behind this mosque?

No, but it HAS been proven that there's Saudi funding of Fox News:

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

Shall we also dismantle Fox because of who is funding it? I mean, clearly, they're under radical Islamic influence because a Saudi has a 7% stake in the company.

163 AntonSirius  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:37:46am

re: #52 freetoken

Yes they are.

This topic certainly hits their hot button.

As did Obama's speech, which was a very fine example of reverse dog-whistling if you ask me. He hit almost all the right buttons, hard, and then capped it off with that "the writ of the Founders must endure" line.

You could tease out the plot of a Dan Brown novel just from that speech alone. "A Muslim plot stretching back to Jefferson... a secret code hidden in the architecture of the mosques of Cedar Rapids... the shadowy hand of an atheist cabal stretching out to alter the course of human events..."

164 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:38:15am

re: #159 SeafoodGumbo

Has it been proven that there is no Saudi funding behind this mosque?

A big part of the "soft" Saudi jihad against America is funding mosques and schools in this country. How do we know that Saudi hate ideology won't fill the Ground Zero mosque? Radical Islamic influence in American mosques is a serious problem.

When probably 85% of the mosques in this country are under extremist leadership and probably a third or something of Muslims in America support Islamic extremism, we should know who is funding the mosque.

Saudi funding has to be proved, not disproved. Imam Rauf is entitled to the presumption of innocence. You are quite correct about the "soft jihad" and the Saudi threat, though.

165 SeafoodGumbo  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:40:39am

re: #162 Lidane

No, but it HAS been proven that there's Saudi funding of Fox News:

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

Shall we also dismantle Fox because of who is funding it? I mean, clearly, they're under radical Islamic influence because a Saudi has a 7% stake in the company.

You're really making equivalence between Fox News' reporting and the Saudi funding of mosques hate literature that teaches Muslims to feel contempt for the West?

166 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:40:43am

re: #159 SeafoodGumbo

Strange, polls I've seen show far less support for radicals. Also, if I'm not mistaken, I've also seen a poll earlier that showed that going to Mosque actually decreases the chance of radicalism (compared to what alternative, I don't know).

Anyone else want to handle this one?

167 AntonSirius  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:41:55am

re: #82 SpaceJesus

300 some comments into this story and freep is still trying to decide whether obama is a free mason, or a muslim, or if it's possible to be both

Dumb-asses. ALL presidents are Free Masons. You can't get the job otherwise.

168 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:41:59am

re: #164 Dark_Falcon

Agree with you about Saudi funding having to be proved.

But the press, Bloomberg, and this blog are not interested in that. There has been absolutely no effort at public due diligence.

You either stand with Charles, or you're "ignorant".

169 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:42:47am

re: #165 SeafoodGumbo

You're really making equivalence between Fox News' reporting and the Saudi funding of mosques hate literature that teaches Muslims to feel contempt for the West?

No. Just pointing out that you're complaining about Saudi funding of one thing while conveniently ignoring Saudi funding of another.

What has more influence on America-- a bunch of mosques being built for local congregations and communities of Muslims, or a cable news network that is piped into every home?

170 SeafoodGumbo  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:43:01am

re: #164 Dark_Falcon

Saudi funding has to be proved, not disproved. Imam Rauf is entitled to the presumption of innocence. You are quite correct about the "soft jihad" and the Saudi threat, though.

No, it has to be disproved. When the vast majority of mosques in the U.S. have extremist leadership, the burden of proof is on a mosque to prove that it will not be led by Islamic extremists and that it won't be filled with hate material from Saudi Arabia.

171 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:44:02am

re: #170 SeafoodGumbo

When the vast majority of mosques in the U.S. have extremist leadership

Can you prove that, or is that just your paranoid delusions talking?

172 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:45:16am

re: #165 SeafoodGumbo

You're really making equivalence between Fox News' reporting and the Saudi funding of mosques hate literature that teaches Muslims to feel contempt for the West?

Prove it.

You all ask for "reasonable, moderate Muslims" They are staring you in the face and you still deny it.

That's why we think you are voicing false concerns to hide your real feelings, that you are too chicken to say out loud.

173 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:45:24am

re: #170 SeafoodGumbo

No, it has to be disproved. When the vast majority of mosques in the U.S. have extremist leadership, the burden of proof is on a mosque to prove that it will not be led by Islamic extremists and that it won't be filled with hate material from Saudi Arabia.

Well, Rauf isn't a violent extremist, but he does need to promise to keep the haters and their works out. A community center must serve the community, hence Saudi hate-lit must have no place in it.

174 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:45:30am

re: #170 SeafoodGumbo

No, it has to be disproved. When the vast majority of mosques in the U.S. have extremist leadership, the burden of proof is on a mosque to prove that it will not be led by Islamic extremists and that it won't be filled with hate material from Saudi Arabia.

ummm,, HUH!?!?

a bit of hyperbole, or do you have any stats?

I have friends that attend three different mosques in and around the Atlanta Area. Not a one is led by "extremist leadership"

175 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:45:49am

re: #166 ProLifeLiberal

What polls?

Just curious, because a recent Newsweek article spoke of the reverse trend.

176 captdiggs  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:46:53am

re: #166 ProLifeLiberal

Strange, polls I've seen show far less support for radicals.?

True. It's down to around 50% in some places like Nigeria and the Palestinian controlled areas. In others, merely 25% of the population supports Bin laden.
But these figures are down from the immediate post 9/11 time period.

177 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:47:22am

re: #176 captdiggs

True. It's down to around 50% in some places like Nigeria and the Palestinian controlled areas. In others, merely 25% of the population supports Bin laden.
But these figures are down from the immediate post 9/11 time period.

But we are talking about America.

178 Kobalt  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:47:39am

If the nameless financial backers of this mosque sincerely wanted to "bridge the gap" between Islam and they west, they would listen to public opinion.

179 SeafoodGumbo  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:48:06am

re: #169 Lidane

No. Just pointing out that you're complaining about Saudi funding of one thing while conveniently ignoring Saudi funding of another.

What has more influence on America-- a bunch of mosques being built for local congregations and communities of Muslims, or a cable news network that is piped into every home?

Results of Saudi funding of mosques - Muslims are taught to hate infidels.

Results of Saudi funding of Fox - ___.

I'm not happy that Saudi owns some of Fox (assuming that your numbers are right), but it's no as troublesome - or nearly as widespread - as the percent of mosques in this country that Saudi Arabia is funding.

180 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:48:26am

re: #154 Walter L. Newton

No kidding.

181 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:48:47am

re: #174 sattv4u2

I have friends that attend three different mosques in and around the Atlanta Area. Not a one is led by "extremist leadership"

Shh. Don't bring up any facts. They tend to get in the way of a good paranoid conspiracy theory.

Never mind the fact that most of the Muslims you meet in this country actually LIKE living here, like the freedoms they have under the US system, and just want to go about their daily lives. They're clearly terrorists in training, and can't be trusted. At least if the wingnuts are to be believed.

182 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:48:58am

re: #158 Stanley Sea

I was waiting for this take. Seen it other places too.

When you are voting this November, you will be voting for someone you want to represent you in Washington. What in the world does the President's view on a NYC building issue (and a religious tolerance issue) have to do with your representation? Nothing. Idiotic.

Have you seen some of the GOP supporters. Idiotic. Case closed.

183 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:49:31am

re: #178 Kobalt

If the nameless financial backers of this mosque sincerely wanted to "bridge the gap" between Islam and they west, they would listen to public opinion.

The reason why they are "NAMELESS" is because the funding drive is just starting, but hellofatry!

184 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:49:35am

OUTRAGEOUSLY OUTRAGEOUS OUTRAGE!

They were within walking distance and THEY DIDN'T SAY HI!!!

Morning.

185 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:50:06am

re: #178 Kobalt

If the nameless financial backers of this mosque sincerely wanted to "bridge the gap" between Islam and they west, they would listen to public opinion.

The US Constitution > public opinion. Period.

We have a freedom of religion in this country, and they have the legal right to build wherever they want. Deal with it.

186 AntonSirius  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:50:12am

re: #146 Mich-again

I think it was a fine speech. Obama asked WWTJD and the answer was clear.

I can't figure out whether TJ is Thomas Jefferson, or Teh Jeebus.

187 captdiggs  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:50:29am

re: #177 Stanley Sea

American muslims are the most secularized in the world. I doubt a large percentage agree with Bin laden.
All the more reason that Imam Rauf should consider opening *interfaith dialogue* centers in other parts of the world, like Egypt or Saudi Arabia

188 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:50:38am

re: #170 SeafoodGumbo

No, it has to be disproved. When the vast majority of mosques in the U.S. have extremist leadership, the burden of proof is on a mosque to prove that it will not be led by Islamic extremists and that it won't be filled with hate material from Saudi Arabia.

You're an elderberry.
It's up to you to disprove it.

189 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:51:28am

re: #187 captdiggs

All the more reason that Imam Rauf should consider opening *interfaith dialogue* centers in other parts of the world, like Egypt or Saudi Arabia

You mean like all that interfaith dialogue he did in the Middle East for the Bush administration?

190 SeafoodGumbo  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:51:46am

re: #171 Lidane

Can you prove that, or is that just your paranoid delusions talking?

Charles thought that an article about this was "exactly right" a few years ago.

Among his statements, Congressman King said, “There are too many people sympathetic to radical Islam…We should be looking at them more carefully and finding out how we can infiltrate them…I think there has been a lack of full cooperation from too many people in the Muslim community…too many Mosques in this country do not cooperate with law enforcement…85 percent of Mosques in this country are controlled by extremist leadership.”

191 Kobalt  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:52:39am

re: #185 Lidane

The US Constitution > public opinion. Period.

We have a freedom of religion in this country, and they have the legal right to build wherever they want. Deal with it.

but the backers say they are trying to "bridge the gap" not test religious freedom in our constitution, right?

192 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:53:05am

re: #156 Tigger2005

So, he should adopt the position of the bigots, in order to keep the bigots out of office?

I'd rather he challenge the moral conscience of the nation, challenge us to set our sights higher. That's what leaders do.

Where did I say that? And I complimented him, it was the right decision. Now, if you would come down to reality, you've seen the crazy among a certain segment of the conservatives, you think they are going to give Obama a big "well done" and move on.

Bullshit. Face the facts, this will only embolden certain conservatives to get out a bigger and larger effort to defeat liberals in November 2010.

Get real.

193 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:53:18am

re: #189 Lidane

You mean like all that interfaith dialogue he did in the Middle East for the Bush administration?

And the one he's going on now that have the wingers up in arms?

They cannot win with this misinformation deluge.

194 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:53:21am

re: #191 Kobalt

but the backers say they are trying to "bridge the gap" not test religious freedom in our constitution, right?

Oh, shut up.
They have the right to build it there.
You don't like it? Deal with it.

195 captdiggs  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:53:38am

re: #189 Lidane

You mean like all that interfaith dialogue he did in the Middle East for the Bush administration?

More.
He should build such centers in those countries, and not limit his dialogue to short visits with some leaders of middle eastern countries.

196 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:53:40am

re: #181 Lidane

The whole "I have friends" argument is really kind of hard to prove on a message board, but I'll play.

I "have a friend", a practicing Muslim (yes really) from Egypt who has been very active in bringing Egyptian cultural activities to NYC. He is disgusted by what the Cordoba initiative is doing.

He also has no faith "interfaith" discussions, at least in Brooklyn, between Muslims and Jews. He claims that on the Muslim side, the leaders of these discussions claim one thing in English but are quite clearer about their intentions with each other.

Ugly stuff, I know. But there it is.

197 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:53:56am

re: #191 Kobalt

but the backers say they are trying to "bridge the gap" not test religious freedom in our constitution, right?

and ,,,?!?!?!

What better way to bridge the gap than to show a 100% peacfeul community positive NON radicalized mosque/ family ctr!?!?!

198 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:54:37am

re: #179 SeafoodGumbo

Results of Saudi funding of mosques - Muslims are taught to hate infidels.

Results of Saudi funding of Fox - ___.

I'm not happy that Saudi owns some of Fox (assuming that your numbers are right), but it's no as troublesome - or nearly as widespread - as the percent of mosques in this country that Saudi Arabia is funding.

That I have to agree with. The control the Saudis' funding of mosques gives them and how they use that control to push Radical Islam is a cause for concern.

199 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:54:54am

Good grief.
My head hurts and I've only been logged in for about 10 minutes.
XD

200 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:55:03am

re: #190 SeafoodGumbo

Charles thought that an article about this was "exactly right" a few years ago.

That was years ago. Clearly, Charles is in favor of the Park51 center being built now, given his posts on the subject.

Also, if you haven't noticed, this blog is significantly different now from what it was in 2007.

201 AntonSirius  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:55:24am

re: #154 Walter L. Newton

While I respect the constitutional right for this community center/mosque to be built and I have no problem with it, considering the lack of support (right or wrong) by certain segments of the public, this statement and position by the president will almost certainly assure GOP wins in November 2010.

So you believe that a) there are people who were going to stay home because they didn't care about the election enough but now, because of this, they will go out and vote Republican, and/or b) there are people who were going to vote Democratic but now, because of this, they will stay home? And no one will be motivated in the other direction (were going to stay home but will now vote Democratic, and/or were going to vote Republican but will now stay home)?

202 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:55:46am

re: #198 Dark_Falcon

That I have to agree with. The control the Saudis' funding of mosques gives them and how they use that control to push Radical Islam is a cause for concern.

I would think that any control over American media, which has FAR more influence on the average person than a few mosques, would be a bigger cause for concern.

203 Kobalt  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:55:50am

re: #194 Varek Raith

Oh, shut up.
They have the right to build it there.
You don't like it? Deal with it.

oh that's mature; dont like my opinion, just tell the other person to "shut up."
well done.

204 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:56:09am

re: #192 Walter L. Newton

Where did I say that? And I complimented him, it was the right decision. Now, if you would come down to reality, you've seen the crazy among a certain segment of the conservatives, you think they are going to give Obama a big "well done" and move on.

Bullshit. Face the facts, this will only embolden certain conservatives to get out a bigger and larger effort to defeat liberals in November 2010.

Get real.

Agreed. Quite often the right thing morally, is not the "right thing" politically.

205 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:56:15am

re: #195 captdiggs

More.
He should build such centers in those countries, and not limit his dialogue to short visits with some leaders of middle eastern countries.

He's an AMERICAN, wtf?

206 Kobalt  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:56:50am

re: #200 Lidane

Charles is a very different person now...

207 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:57:04am

re: #203 Kobalt

oh that's mature; dont like my opinion, just tell the other person to "shut up."
well done.

I'm way past the point of giving respect to those opposed to this Mosque.

208 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:57:05am

re: #191 Kobalt

but the backers say they are trying to "bridge the gap" not test religious freedom in our constitution, right?

Guess what? There is no argument you can make that has any constitutional standing on this matter. It's an issue that has both historical and contemporary support, it's called our freedom of religion.

Unless you intend to change that, all your whining and deflecting will accomplish nothing except to make you look like a bigot.

Understand?

209 SeafoodGumbo  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:57:10am

re: #200 Lidane

That was years ago. Clearly, Charles is in favor of the Park51 center being built now, given his posts on the subject.

Also, if you haven't noticed, this blog is significantly different now from what it was in 2007.

So, are you saying that Charles was wrong three years ago?

210 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:57:20am

re: #191 Kobalt

but the backers say they are trying to "bridge the gap" not test religious freedom in our constitution, right?

They have a legal right to build. They have legal clearances to build. We have religious freedom in this country, which enables them to build.

Deal. With. It.

211 AntonSirius  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:57:32am

re: #160 davesax

Charles:

Notice he's defending the constitution. Unconditionally. He's not imploring Muslims to show "restraint" and move the cultural center/ mosque, further away so as not to offend people.

Unlike Imam Rauf, who, when South Park made a silly, harmless cartoon, wrote that the American media must show "restraint" so as not to offend Muslims.

So don't vote for Rauf.

212 darthstar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:57:52am

re: #199 Varek Raith

Good grief.
My head hurts and I've only been logged in for about 10 minutes.
XD

Indeed...I just popped in myself and it appears a fleet of short buses broke down outside an internet cafe somewhere.

213 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:58:30am

re: #212 darthstar

Indeed...I just popped in myself and it appears a fleet of short buses broke down outside an internet cafe somewhere.

I'm so stealing that.

214 Kobalt  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:58:57am

re: #204 Dark_Falcon

Dark falcon: your are wasting your time with these liberals. They clearly support obama unconditionally.

215 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:59:28am

re: #214 Kobalt

Dark falcon: your are wasting your time with these liberals. They clearly support obama unconditionally.

And you clearly don't like the Constitution.
Why do you hate the Constitution?

216 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:59:32am

re: #209 SeafoodGumbo

So, are you saying that Charles was wrong three years ago?

I'm saying Charles is a grown man entitled to his own opinions. The only person who can decide if he was wrong back then is Charles. End of story.

However, given his posts about Park51, I can only assume that he really, really doesn't have a problem with it being built, and that he thinks the people freaking out about it are wrong.

217 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:00:06am

re: #202 Lidane

I would think that any control over American media, which has FAR more influence on the average person than a few mosques, would be a bigger cause for concern.

True, but no one's been able to show that 7% investment producing any control of reporting and news coverage. Whereas the connection between Saudi funding of a mosque and Islamist hate-lit being found within same is much clearer.

However, Imam Rauf hasn't passed out or defended said hate-lit. If such filth shows up at Park51, then we can do something about it. But prior restraint is not permissible in this situation.

218 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:00:22am

Ok, I found the poll (acutally, it's a study, my fault for memory issues) that I was talking about. It's talked about in an article in the New York Times about resistance to mosques all over the United States, on the 2nd page, 2nd paragraph.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Here is the applicable quote:

A two-year study by a group of academics on American Muslims and terrorism concluded that contemporary mosques are actually a deterrent to the spread of militant Islam and terrorism. The study was conducted by professors with Duke’s Sanford School of Public Policy and the University of North Carolina. It disclosed that many mosque leaders had put significant effort into countering extremism by building youth programs, sponsoring antiviolence forums and scrutinizing teachers and texts.

219 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:00:31am

re: #214 Kobalt

Dark falcon: your are wasting your time with these liberals. They clearly support obama unconditionally.

Disagreeing with you =/= unconditional support for Obama.

And not everyone who supports Park51 around here is a liberal. Some of us are, but you can't generalize that easily.

220 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:01:03am

re: #214 Kobalt

Dark falcon: your are wasting your time with these liberals. They clearly support obama unconditionally.

I am FAR from a 'liberal" and don't support very much of this Presidents agenda (just ask here) but as far as this issue is concerned you are, for the reasons I have stated here, 100% wrong.

221 Kobalt  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:01:06am

re: #215 Varek Raith

And you clearly don't like the Constitution.
Why do you hate the Constitution?

I'm *not talking about the constitution.
Why dont you re-read my posts or have an adult read them to you?

222 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:01:47am

re: #219 Lidane

Disagreeing with you =/= unconditional support for Obama.

And not everyone who supports Park51 around here is a liberal. Some of us are, but you can't generalize that easily.

see 220

223 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:01:54am

re: #221 Kobalt

I'm *not talking about the constitution.
Why dont you re-read my posts or have an adult read them to you?

Constitution > Your Opinion
They can build it.

224 Kobalt  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:02:16am

re: #219 Lidane

Disagreeing with you =/= unconditional support for Obama.

And not everyone who supports Park51 around here is a liberal. Some of us are, but you can't generalize that easily.

okay. can you name a single Republican that does support it then?

225 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:02:18am

re: #214 Kobalt

Your are an ass.

226 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:02:42am

re: #205 Stanley Sea

He's an AMERICAN, wtf?

Oh, but it's his responsibility to single-handedly build all these centers and open all this dialogue. I mean, he's not just an American, he's a Muslim, too. It's all on him, apparently.

227 AntonSirius  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:02:44am

re: #192 Walter L. Newton

Where did I say that? And I complimented him, it was the right decision. Now, if you would come down to reality, you've seen the crazy among a certain segment of the conservatives, you think they are going to give Obama a big "well done" and move on.

Bullshit. Face the facts, this will only embolden certain conservatives to get out a bigger and larger effort to defeat liberals in November 2010.

Get real.

Seriously Walter. How much more can they be emboldened? They're already cranked past 11.

228 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:02:54am

re: #224 Kobalt

okay. can you name a single Republican that does support it then?

me

229 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:02:55am

re: #214 Kobalt

Dark_Falcon: yr r wstng yr tm wth ths lbrls. Thy clrly spprt Obama ncndtnlly.

And you're clearly a troll.

When this troll gets clubbed, will someone please put it on ice till I can grill it tonight?

230 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:03:12am

re: #221 Kobalt

I'm *not talking about the constitution. Why dont you re-read my posts or have an adult read them to you?

Evidently you don't even know about the constitution. Thanks for playing.

231 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:03:12am

re: #228 sattv4u2

me

YOU DON'T COUNT!!!

232 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:03:14am

re: #225 Cato the Elder

Your are an ass.

I was thinking douche.

233 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:03:29am

re: #224 Kobalt

okay. can you name a single Republican that does support it then?

Don't know. Don't care. I'm not a Republican, and given the way the Republicans have lost their goddamn minds since Obama got elected, I wouldn't want to be one anyway.

234 prairiefire  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:03:41am

re: #220 sattv4u2

Hey, Satt, OT, but this article is for you. Sofia in Esquire mag:[Link: www.esquire.com...]

235 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:03:57am

re: #231 Varek Raith

YOU DON'T COUNT!!!

Yes I do
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 11evnty !!

See !?!?

236 Kobalt  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:04:30am

re: #223 Varek Raith

Brilliant reply!!!
I say I'm not talking about the constitution and you intelligently quote the constitution again!!
LOLOL
Like arguing with a broken record!!

237 SeafoodGumbo  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:04:43am

re: #216 Lidane

I'm saying Charles is a grown man entitled to his own opinions. The only person who can decide if he was wrong back then is Charles. End of story.

However, given his posts about Park51, I can only assume that he really, really doesn't have a problem with it being built, and that he thinks the people freaking out about it are wrong.

How is it "freaking out" to be worried about a mosque being built at Ground Zero when Saudia Arabia provides funding for 85% of the mosques and this imam is being secretive about the funding for the mosque? Head in the sand much?

238 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:04:48am

re: #234 prairiefire

Hey, Satt, OT, but this article is for you. Sofia in Esquire mag:[Link: www.esquire.com...]

OMG !!!

Okay ,, I have to go ,umm,, be alone for awhile

then have a cigarette and a nap!!

239 darthstar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:04:51am

re: #229 Dark_Falcon

And you're clearly a troll.

When this troll gets clubbed, will someone please put it on ice till I can grill it tonight?

I think it's sweet he/she tried to appeal to you personally. And it certainly makes the Saturday morning chat more entertaining.

240 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:05:14am

re: #236 Kobalt

Heh, you sound like a lefty.
All emotional and stuff.
XD

241 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:05:17am

re: #228 sattv4u2

me

DING!!!

242 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:05:31am

re: #218 ProLifeLiberal

ProLife:

Thanks for that information. Obviously polls will show different results, depending on the variables.

The Newsweek article I linked to claims the opposite, and doesn't even mention that poll.

But regardless, I must confess, I find it kind of odd to argue that the threat of homegrown extremism is declining, when, in this year alone we had Ft. Hood, Times Square, a number of arrests of thwarted plots (that were at least made public), etc.

243 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:05:49am

Wow, walked into a firestorm today.

244 jaunte  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:06:04am

re: #240 Varek Raith

The argument does seem to be all about 'feelings.'

245 Kobalt  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:06:07am

re: #228 sattv4u2

me

How about a Republican IN OFFICE?

246 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:06:19am

re: #228 sattv4u2

me

KOBALT

Why did you downding that post

YOU asked, I gave you an answer,,, an HONEST one

Can't deal with honesty!?!?!

247 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:06:21am

re: #243 Cannadian Club Akbar

Wow, walked into a firestorm today.

More like a shitstorm... by a shithead.

248 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:06:35am

re: #237 SeafoodGumbo

How is it "freaking out" to be worried about a mosque being built at Ground Zero when Saudia Arabia provides funding for 85% of the mosques and this imam is being secretive about the funding for the mosque? Head in the sand much?

Oh please.

249 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:06:36am

re: #236 Kobalt

Brllnt rply!!!
sy 'm nt tlkng abt th cnstttn nd y ntllgntly qt th cnstttn gn!!
LLL
Lk rgng wth brkn rcrd!!

The Constitution is the cardinal issue here, not your paranoia. Go back under your bridge.

250 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:07:12am

re: #170 SeafoodGumbo

No, it has to be disproved. When the vast majority of mosques in the U.S. have extremist leadership, the burden of proof is on a mosque to prove that it will not be led by Islamic extremists and that it won't be filled with hate material from Saudi Arabia.

The "vast majority" of mosques in the US have extremist leadership?

Prove that. And then go tell the FBI and the DHS. I'm sure you'll get a pat on the head.

251 AntonSirius  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:07:35am

re: #219 Lidane

Disagreeing with you =/= unconditional support for Obama.

And not everyone who supports Park51 around here is a liberal. Some of us are, but you can't generalize that easily.

Well, on this subject I unconditionally support Obama.

And, though I'm sure it's purely a coincidence, the Constitution.

252 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:07:45am

re: #246 sattv4u2

Why do people on these boards get so personal when they disagree?

It's childish.

Everyone should just chill out.

253 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:07:54am

re: #245 Kobalt

How about a Republican IN OFFICE?

What difference does it make if it's an office holder or not

You follow EVERYTHING someone says just because they are an "office holder"

I have been voting for almost 40 years now. I have NEVER found someone that I agree with 100%

254 darthstar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:07:55am

re: #232 Cannadian Club Akbar

I was thinking douche.


He's definitely an enema of reason.

255 Kobalt  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:08:17am

re: #249 Dark_Falcon

leet speak. even more mature.
Right out of the 4chan playbook, mmm?

256 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:08:42am

re: #237 SeafoodGumbo

a mosque being built at Ground Zero

It's not just a mosque, and it's not "at Ground Zero". Also, there's already an ACTUAL mosque that's closer to the WTC than Park51. It's been there for decades, and I don't see you bitching about that one. What makes this one so special, given that there's already a mosque in the area?

when Saudia Arabia provides funding for 85% of the mosques

Prove it. Give me your source on that.

Head in the sand much?

Nah. I'm just not ruled by paranoia and fear.

257 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:09:03am

re: #255 Kobalt

leet speak. even more mature.
Right out of the 4chan playbook, mmm?

First. That's not leet speak, no0b.
Second. Image: sockpuppet.jpg

258 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:09:56am

re: #255 Kobalt

Gotta go. I'll roast your Gamey Buttocks properly when I get home tonight.

259 It's a cookbook!  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:10:18am

I don't know that I find this statement "overdue," Charles. I'm glad he waited and let the other side turn it into a national issue than do it himself. Not that I want it to be such a big deal, but I think you get my drift.

260 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:10:23am

I was gonna mow the yard but instead I will play "smack around stoopid people".

261 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:10:43am

re: #245 Kobalt

How about a Republican IN OFFICE?

"Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y said the president is "wrong.""

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

262 SeafoodGumbo  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:10:48am

re: #250 Cato the Elder

The "vast majority" of mosques in the US have extremist leadership?

Prove that. And then go tell the FBI and the DHS. I'm sure you'll get a pat on the head.

It's in the link I posted above from this very blog. Those are numbers taken from this blog. I hope that the FBI and DHS are giving this the proper consideration.

263 AntonSirius  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:10:52am

re: #237 SeafoodGumbo

How is it "freaking out" to be worried about a mosque being built at Ground Zero when Saudia Arabia provides funding for 85% of the mosques and this imam is being secretive about the funding for the mosque? Head in the sand much?

OMG!!! Someone's building a mosque at Ground Zero???

Does the Cordoba Initiative know about this? Having a mosque within two blocks of their community center could really cut into their traffic.

264 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:10:52am

re: #256 Lidane

Lidane:

The funding of mosques by Saudis really isn't a political chip. It's a fact. It's been written about in liberal and conservative publications.

For instance, the State Department has restricted Rauf from doing fundraising on his current tour. There's a reason for that. Otherwise, they wouldn't have made it an issue.

265 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:11:16am

re: #260 Cannadian Club Akbar

I was gonna mow the yard but instead I will play "smack around stoopid people".

OUCH ,, not so hard!!

(oh ,, you didn't mean me this time!?!?!)

266 bubba zanetti  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:11:54am

re: #237 SeafoodGumbo

How is it "freaking out" to be worried about a mosque being built at Ground Zero when Saudia Arabia provides funding for 85% of the mosques and this imam is being secretive about the funding for the mosque?

You know those bastards will put too much chlorine in their pool, drying out our pure blond American hair and causing split ends.

267 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:11:57am

re: #265 sattv4u2

OUCH ,, not so hard!!

(oh ,, you didn't mean me this time!?!?!)

your time will come.
//

268 It's a cookbook!  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:12:02am

re: #265 sattv4u2

OUCH ,, not so hard!!

(oh ,, you didn't mean me this time!?!?!)

Oh, we always have room for you, Satt. :)

269 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:12:28am

re: #261 Walter L. Newton

"Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y said the president is "wrong.""

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

He was asking if there's a Repub in office that has come out saying the 'mosque" should be built

270 McSpiff  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:12:56am

re: #265 sattv4u2

OUCH ,, not so hard!!

(oh ,, you didn't mean me this time!?!?!)

Rampant xenophobia makes for odd bedfellows. The few, the proud, the rational.

271 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:13:21am

re: #262 SeafoodGumbo

It's in the link I posted above from this very blog. Those are numbers taken from this blog. I hope that the FBI and DHS are giving this the proper consideration.

No, I'm sure you're the only one worried about it. And your worry is all that stands between the rest of the country and death! Death, I tells you!

272 SeafoodGumbo  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:13:51am

re: #256 Lidane

It's not just a mosque, and it's not "at Ground Zero". Also, there's already an ACTUAL mosque that's closer to the WTC than Park51. It's been there for decades, and I don't see you bitching about that one. What makes this one so special, given that there's already a mosque in the area?

Prove it. Give me your source on that.

Nah. I'm just not ruled by paranoia and fear.

Landing gear from one of the planes flew into the building. Maybe that's not close enough for you to call it Ground Zero, but it is for me.

273 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:13:56am

re: #270 McSpiff

Rampant xenophobia makes for odd bedfellows. The few, the proud, the rational.

You know who needs to be stopped? The Polish.
/

274 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:14:01am

re: #264 davesax

There is a difference between them funding some mosques and them funding 85% of them. I want hard, solid proof that 85% of the mosques in this country are not only Saudi funded, but that they teach Saudi-style Wahhabism.

Without that proof, I will dismiss the suggestion that 85% of the mosques in this country have extremist leadership and are Saudi as just paranoid bullshit.

275 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:14:52am

re: #272 SeafoodGumbo

Landing gear from one of the planes flew into the building. Maybe that's not close enough for you to call it Ground Zero, but it is for me.

My aunt could see the smoke from her apartment in Jersey. Is that close enough to 'ground zero'???

276 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:15:27am

re: #262 SeafoodGumbo

It's in the link I posted above from this very blog. Those are numbers taken from this blog. I hope that the FBI and DHS are giving this the proper consideration.

And since that report how many of those mosques have been investigated and
A) cleared
B) closed
C) removed the radical elements
D) the radical elements, knowing they were being investigated went back to the Middle East?

277 It's a cookbook!  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:15:28am

re: #272 SeafoodGumbo

Landing gear from one of the planes flew into the building. Maybe that's not close enough for you to call it Ground Zero, but it is for me.

Oh, the fucking landing gear canard again.

278 McSpiff  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:15:41am

re: #272 SeafoodGumbo

Landing gear from one of the planes flew into the building. Maybe that's not close enough for you to call it Ground Zero, but it is for me.

If getting hit with debris counts, than there most likely isn't a spot in lower Manhattan you wouldn't consider ground zero.

279 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:15:53am

re: #272 SeafoodGumbo

Landing gear from one of the planes flew into the building. Maybe that's not close enough for you to call it Ground Zero, but it is for me.

Who the fuck cares how far your Ground Zero zone extends in you little mind, what does that have to do with the constitutional right to practice their religion?

280 AntonSirius  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:16:20am

re: #272 SeafoodGumbo

Landing gear from one of the planes flew into the building. Maybe that's not close enough for you to call it Ground Zero, but it is for me.

OK. So your definition of 'Ground Zero' is the area of Lower Manhattan that was directly damaged by the 9/11 attack. Not a definition I personally agree with, but it's at least based on something tangible.

Do you advocate shutting down all the existing mosques within that area?

281 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:16:24am

re: #272 SeafoodGumbo

I'll repost from last night, just for you:

Navy imam Chaplain Abuhena M. Saifulislam lifted his voice to God as he called to prayer more than 100 Department of Defense employees Monday at a celebration of Ramadan at the Pentagon.
God is most great, sang the lieutenant commander and Islamic leader, in Arabic, as iftar — the end of the daily fast began.

Uniformed military personnel, civilians and family members faced Mecca and knelt on adorned prayer rugs chanting their prayers in quiet invocation to Allah.

(Above quote from story in 2007)

Mosque in the Pentagon, never a peep.

[Link: [Link: www.salon.com...]...]

Your current concern is uneducated, misplaced and sooo chickenshit.

282 darthstar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:16:40am

re: #262 SeafoodGumbo

It's in the link I posted above from this very blog. Those are numbers taken from this blog. I hope that the FBI and DHS are giving this the proper consideration.

Take your fear and shove it.

283 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:16:57am

There really are two separate issues, here.

The first has to do with the consititution and freedom of religion. And there sees to be a vocal contingent that is against extending those rights to the builders of this center/mosque.

This contingent is wrong.

The second issue has to do with a matter of taste. Some people think it's in pour taste to go ahead and do this without being transparent about the funding, etc. And others think it's just in poor taste, period.

On the second issue, I'm someone who thinks this is in poor taste. That is now dismissed as "bigotry" or "ignorance" by Charles and other in the media. I disagree with them on that, and it's something I stand by.

284 It's a cookbook!  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:17:07am

re: #278 McSpiff

If getting hit with debris counts, than there most likely isn't a spot in lower Manhattan you wouldn't consider ground zero.

It would be really nice if we held the 9/11 responders in such high regard as we do this plot of land. Maybe we could make a national issue out of their medical care...

285 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:17:27am

re: #242 davesax

I think alot of radicalization occurs with people with the internet. In fact, it would seem the Major Hasan was in contact with this guy over email, and Charles Allen, former Undersecertary for Homeland Security, actucally stated that al-Awlaki was targeting Muslims with online lectures encouraging Terrorist attacks.

286 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:17:30am

re: #284 JasonA

It would be really nice if we held the 9/11 responders in such high regard as we do this plot of land. Maybe we could make a national issue out of their medical care...

OH SNAP

287 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:17:35am

9/11 turned lots of people into Newts.

Some of us got better.

288 It's a cookbook!  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:18:14am

re: #283 davesax

You think it's in poor taste because they are Muslims, no?

289 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:18:16am

re: #272 SeafoodGumbo

Landing gear from one of the planes flew into the building. Maybe that's not close enough for you to call it Ground Zero, but it is for me.

Oh for fuck's sake. You DO know that Muslims died in the Twin Towers, and that I'm not just talking about the assholes who flew the planes into the buildings?

BTW, the Pentagon was also attacked on 9/11, and they have a mosque:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Shall we dismantle that one, too? I mean, it's not even two blocks away from a 9/11 attack site. It's INSIDE one.

290 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:18:39am

SEAFOOD GUMBO

There is a 4 part question for you as yet unanswered in post #276

I await

291 SeafoodGumbo  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:19:02am

re: #280 AntonSirius

OK. So your definition of 'Ground Zero' is the area of Lower Manhattan that was directly damaged by the 9/11 attack. Not a definition I personally agree with, but it's at least based on something tangible.

Do you advocate shutting down all the existing mosques within that area?

What's your definition of Ground Zero?

292 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:19:26am

re: #291 SeafoodGumbo

What's your definition of Ground Zero?

The epicenter of a nuclear blast.

293 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:19:26am

re: #274 Lidane

Lidane, Charles has an article up on this site claiming that 80% of them are funded by Saudis. He also had one up years ago, which was a report by Freedom House, based on - I think it was - sixteen of the largest mosques in the United States. If you do a search you'll find it.

As far as "dismissing it as paranoid" bullshit, well, dismiss away.

Cheers.

294 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:19:59am

re: #283 davesax

There really are two separate issues, here.

The first has to do with the consititution and freedom of religion. And there sees to be a vocal contingent that is against extending those rights to the builders of this center/mosque.

This contingent is wrong.

The second issue has to do with a matter of taste. Some people think it's in pour taste to go ahead and do this without being transparent about the funding, etc. And others think it's just in poor taste, period.

On the second issue, I'm someone who thinks this is in poor taste. That is now dismissed as "bigotry" or "ignorance" by Charles and other in the media. I disagree with them on that, and it's something I stand by.

Having poor taste is not a crime in America.

295 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:20:01am

re: #283 davesax

There really are two separate issues, here.

The first has to do with the consititution and freedom of religion. And there sees to be a vocal contingent that is against extending those rights to the builders of this center/mosque.

This contingent is wrong.

The second issue has to do with a matter of taste. Some people think it's in pour taste to go ahead and do this without being transparent about the funding, etc. And others think it's just in poor taste, period.

On the second issue, I'm someone who thinks this is in poor taste. That is now dismissed as "bigotry" or "ignorance" by Charles and other in the media. I disagree with them on that, and it's something I stand by.

"...Many opponents of the project have been employing a clever little dodge. They say they don't question the group's legal right to build it under the Constitution. Rather, they say, they're merely criticizing the group's decision to do so, on the grounds that it's insensitive to 9/11 families and will undercut the project's goal of reconciliation. The group has the right to build the center, runs this argument, but they are wrong to exercise it..."

You swallowed it whole.

Obama takes on the demagogues

296 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:20:18am

re: #283 davesax

I think the existence of privately-owned universities run by the likes of Pat Robertson is in poor taste.

Doesn't stop them, though.

297 SeafoodGumbo  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:20:31am

re: #282 darthstar

Take your fear and shove it.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I will have to ignore your advice.

298 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:20:41am

re: #214 Kobalt

Dark falcon: your are wasting your time with these liberals. They clearly support obama unconditionally.

No need to guess as to the origin of the "DF is wasting his time with these libs" meme. Another day, another stalker.

299 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:20:45am

((ummm,,, errr,,, isn't Saturdays usually when we come here, chill, have a few laughs and MORE importantly keep me amused while I'm at work alone for 12 hours!?!?!?!))

300 It's a cookbook!  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:21:04am

re: #293 davesax

Lidane, Charles has an article up on this site claiming that 80% of them are funded by Saudis. He also had one up years ago, which was a report by Freedom House, based on - I think it was - sixteen of the largest mosques in the United States. If you do a search you'll find it.

As far as "dismissing it as paranoid" bullshit, well, dismiss away.

Cheers.

What does the whole "funded by Saudis" issue have to do with anything, by the way? Are Muslims not allowed to get capital from them or something?

301 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:21:08am

re: #293 davesax

So you're going to make a claim then expect me to find the proof for you?

Nope. Not doing it. If you are going to tell me that 85% of the mosques in this country are not just Saudi funded, but that they have extremist leadership, then I expect YOU to give me that proof. I'm not doing the work for you.

302 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:21:23am

re: #299 sattv4u2

((ummm,,, errr,,, isn't Saturdays usually when we come here, chill, have a few laughs and MORE importantly keep me amused while I'm at work alone for 12 hours!?!?!?!))

Just crash some satellites together. That ought to be fun!

303 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:21:55am

re: #297 SeafoodGumbo

Thanks for the suggestion, but I will have to ignore your advice.

I also noticed you ignored answering # 276

304 It's a cookbook!  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:21:58am

re: #298 Jimmah

No need to guess as to the origin of the "DF is wasting his time with these libs" meme. Another day, another stalker.

Jimmah! I demand to speak to Iceweasel immediately! What, do you have her locked up in the basement or something??? :P

305 Gitarzan  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:22:02am

re: #15 hutchrun

Another member of the LGF Class of 2004 getting apoplectic over and flaming out...in this case, good riddance.

/sound and fury, signifying nothing

306 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:22:08am

re: #302 Varek Raith

Just crash some satellites together. That ought to be fun!

That's YOUR job. Lazy.

307 darthstar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:22:15am

re: #291 SeafoodGumbo

What's your definition of Ground Zero?

The whole fuckin' planet is "Ground Zero." We're all in this together, Christian, Muslim, atheist... It is in our best interest as a species that we learn to coexist...and for as long as we've been on this planet we've struggled with that lesson. Most people have learned that blind hatred and irrational fear are not positive qualities. You should try learning that as well.

308 AntonSirius  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:22:18am

re: #291 SeafoodGumbo

What's your definition of Ground Zero?

Answer the question. Do you believe all the existing mosques within the area of Lower Manhattan that you consider to be 'Ground Zero' should be shut down?

309 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:22:21am

re: #294 Walter L. Newton

Having poor taste is not a crime in America.

If it were, the jails would be full of Britney Spears fans.

310 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:22:22am

re: #302 Varek Raith

Just crash some satellites together. That ought to be fun!

We've already lost one this year!

311 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:23:01am

re: #272 SeafoodGumbo

Landing gear from one of the planes flew into the building. Maybe that's not close enough for you to call it Ground Zero, but it is for me.

And there is a weekly jummah prayer service in the White House in room HC-5. Never saw you complain about that.

[Link: twitter.com...]

312 Gitarzan  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:23:03am

re: #287 Cato the Elder

9/11 turned lots of people into Newts.

Some of us got better.

Nice wordplay, Cato...

313 RadicalModerate  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:23:21am

re: #255 Kobalt

leet speak. even more mature.
Right out of the 4chan playbook, mmm?

No, that would be the effect of the disemvoweler that Charles put in a couple of months ago, a fact you'd know if you spent any time at all reading here.

314 jaunte  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:23:29am

re: #295 Stanley Sea

As a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country. And that includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances. This is America. And our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable. The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country and that they will not be treated differently by their government is essential to who we are. The writ of the Founders must endure.


This is what will defeat the extremists of all stripes.

315 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:23:35am

re: #310 sattv4u2

We've already lost one this year!

Do you what killed it?

316 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:23:35am

re: #310 sattv4u2

We've already lost one this year!

Do you ever have that weird urge to disrupt a football game? The power!

317 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:24:26am

re: #315 Varek Raith

Do you know what killed it?

Way to miss a word, Varek!

318 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:24:35am

re: #315 Varek Raith

Do you what killed it?

Wordsmith.
/

319 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:24:37am

re: #295 Stanley Sea

"...Many opponents of the project have been employing a clever little dodge. They say they don't question the group's legal right to build it under the Constitution. Rather, they say, they're merely criticizing the group's decision to do so, on the grounds that it's insensitive to 9/11 families and will undercut the project's goal of reconciliation. The group has the right to build the center, runs this argument, but they are wrong to exercise it..."

You swallowed it whole.

Obama takes on the demagogues

Pamela Geller : 'people could get hurt!'.

320 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:25:15am

re: #288 JasonA

No.

I think it's in poor taste because my neigborhood smelled of burned flesh and hair for four weeks , and because two blocks away from Ground Zero is on a street where people died, while Muslims around the world cheered, and Prince Alaweed came here and lectured Guliani about our foreign policy and how it was to blame for this. And now we know that Rauf told sixty minutes that we were "accessories" to what happened.

It is, and will remain, an open wound.

Leave it alone and put it somewhere else.

321 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:25:41am

re: #318 Cannadian Club Akbar

Wordsmith.
/

Indeed.
:)

322 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:25:51am

re: #315 Varek Raith

Do you what killed it?

believe it or not,,, the SUN

We're expecting more problems between now and October. Everything from a millisecond interruption of reception to out and out loss of telemetry

323 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:26:15am

re: #295 Stanley Sea

Na, Stanley, I haven't swallowed anything. I haven't even made decisions based on what any group has said. It's a personal conclusion.

You obviously disagree with it.

Good on you.

324 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:26:18am

re: #316 Stanley Sea

Do you ever have that weird urge to disrupt a football game? The power!

Always ,, especially when "my" team is losing!!!

325 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:26:20am

re: #304 JasonA

Jimmah! I demand to speak to Iceweasel immediately! What, do you have her locked up in the basement or something??? :P

Did you miss my post about the unfortunate outcome of last weeks chores? Like I said, all communication will have to be through me for the time being. There is nothing to worry about :)

326 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:26:28am

re: #320 davesax

Falwell and Robertson said we were accessories to 9/11 as well.

327 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:26:48am

re: #319 Jimmah

Pamela Geller : 'people could get hurt!'.

I mean, come on!

(wonder what ever happened to the investigation into the btw)

328 It's a cookbook!  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:26:59am

re: #320 davesax

Okay. But the titty bar gets to stay, right?

329 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:28:07am

re: #328 JasonA

Okay. But the titty bar gets to stay, right?

It better. Where else are we gonna get free popcorn?

330 AntonSirius  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:28:07am

re: #328 JasonA

Okay. But the titty bar gets to stay, right?

Axe wounds don't count.

/ducks

331 It's a cookbook!  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:28:27am

re: #325 Jimmah

Did you miss my post about the unfortunate outcome of last weeks chores? Like I said, all communication will have to be through me for the time being. There is nothing to worry about :)

Oh, wait. I do vaguely remember something about her cutting herself. Am I remembering that right?

332 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:28:32am

re: #326 Varek Raith

Sure they did.

And I wouldn't want them building an evangelical center near ground zero, either.

333 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:28:51am

re: #327 Stanley Sea

urgh. Investigation into the magic bullet.

334 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:29:19am

re: #320 davesax

Again, The US Constitution > public opinion.

Some people might still feel raw about 9/11, but we can't trample on the freedom of religion of others, or otherwise stop them from exercising their legal right to build where they want. At that point, you're just giving in to fear, and letting the attackers accomplish what they set out to do in the first place.

335 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:29:51am

re: #328 JasonA

Jason, why so snide?

And what does a nude bar have to do with anything? I don't recall strippers being behind the September 11th attacks. Islamic fundamentalists were.

Where's the analogy?

336 McSpiff  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:30:35am

re: #332 davesax

Sure they did.

And I wouldn't want them building an evangelical center near ground zero, either.

Keep posting. You're doing more to ensure public support for this than you could possibly know.

337 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:30:44am

re: #332 davesax

Sure they did.

And I wouldn't want them building an evangelical center near ground zero, either.

Good on you.

But guess what. It doesn't matter. What they want to do is legal and they have every right to do it if they are not in violation of any local laws such as zoning etc.

Good on you. (back at ya).

338 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:30:56am

re: #335 davesax

Jason, why so snide?

And what does a nude bar have to do with anything? I don't recall strippers being behind the September 11th attacks. Islamic fundamentalists were.

Where's the analogy?

How do you equate Islamic fundamentalists with American Muslims.

Explain this.

339 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:31:07am

re: #331 JasonA

Oh, wait. I do vaguely remember something about her cutting herself. Am I remembering that right?

Yeah - she had a diffence of opinion with a mandolin slicer (first time I've ever seen her lose an argument - not to mention part of a fingertip). Healing up nicely though - she'll be getting her last dressing put on it at the hospital tomorrow.

340 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:31:18am

re: #335 davesax

Jason, why so snide?

And what does a nude bar have to do with anything? I don't recall strippers being behind the September 11th attacks. Islamic fundamentalists were.

Where's the analogy?

Didn't Atta and his friend hire hookers the night before? (just trying to remember here)

341 McSpiff  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:31:31am

re: #335 davesax

Jason, why so snide?

And what does a nude bar have to do with anything? I don't recall strippers being behind the September 11th attacks. Islamic fundamentalists were.

Where's the analogy?

And this community center isn't being built by Islamic fundamentalists either. Where's your analogy now?

342 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:31:54am

re: #339 Jimmah

Yeah - she had a diffence of opinion with a mandolin slicer (first time I've ever seen her lose an argument - not to mention part of a fingertip). Healing up nicely though - she'll be getting her last dressing put on it at the hospital tomorrow.

Ouch!
I blame Bush.
Get well soon Ice!

343 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:31:55am

re: #334 Lidane

Lidane, you're not reading what I said, obviously.

I will repeat, as I have a dozen times on these boards, they have the right to build it wherever they want. And they will. I will not try to stop them.

But I think it's in poor taste. Just like I find Jews for Jesus, who have the right to approach me on the street and try to convert me, in poor taste. Just like I think it was in poor taste to put an adult video store across the street from a school near me in Brookyn.

344 It's a cookbook!  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:32:25am

re: #335 davesax

Why so snide? You must have skimmed over my posts for the last year or so...

345 McSpiff  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:32:52am

re: #343 davesax

There's a difference between 'taste' and racism that is clearly lost on you. Unless you think support for segregation was also a matter of personal taste.

346 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:33:04am

re: #336 McSpiff

Nah, I doubt it. MOst of the public is opposed. And thanks for the vote of confidence, but I really don't think my words mean all that much. On these boards, they just get me more personal animosity, and that's about it.

347 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:33:43am

re: #69 WindUpBird

There are a lot of really REALLY stupid americans on the internet :D

re: #121 HappyWarrior

I thought the president put it really well by bringing up that Muslims have been in this countries for years and brought up that there are Muslim Americans serving in uniform right now. Didn't know that bit about Jefferson and the Tunisian ambassador. Of course there will be some that will read this speech and use it as their proof that Obama is a sekrit Muslim.

Hell, they'll probably use it to show that Jefferson was a secret Muslim and therefore the Constitution must be rewritten to reflect 'True American Values'.

348 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:33:49am

re: #344 JasonA

Nah.

Why would take the time to do that?

And how am I being snide?

349 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:34:00am

Seriously, the arguments given tread so so close into demagoguing all Muslims. But always there's some excuse, some bit of pull back not to say it out loud.

Bullshit.

350 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:34:06am

re: #315 Varek Raith

Do you what killed it?

BTW

[Link: www.csmonitor.com...]

351 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:34:22am

re: #346 davesax

Nah, I doubt it. MOst of the public is opposed. And thanks for the vote of confidence, but I really don't think my words mean all that much. On these boards, they just get me more personal animosity, and that's about it.

Sort of like the bigoted personal animosity you have against Muslims?

352 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:34:40am

re: #345 McSpiff

McSpiff. I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're say. Taste and Racism? Segregation?

What are you talking about?

353 It's a cookbook!  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:34:57am

re: #348 davesax

I was responding to your question, asking me why I was being so snide.

354 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:35:01am

re: #343 davesax

Oh, I'm reading what you're saying. I just happen to disagree.

There's a mosque INSIDE the Pentagon, and it was attacked on 9/11 as well. I honestly don't see a difference between that and the Park51 center being built in NYC. Some people might not like it, but that's not a good enough reason to stop it or move it.

355 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:36:16am

re: #351 Walter L. Newton

I'm a bigot because I think it's in poor taste to put a mosque/cultural center two blocks from ground zero?

I disagree.

And how is it bigoted to note that many muslims throughout the world rejoiced on September 11th? Charles has links to it on this site.

So, I don't it's bigoted to note that.

356 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:36:43am

re: #353 JasonA

Oh. Thanks for clarifying.

357 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:37:29am

re: #354 Lidane

Ok, well, I disagree with you.

We have agreed to disagree.

And that's just how it is.

358 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:38:29am

bbl.

359 McSpiff  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:38:48am

re: #352 davesax

McSpiff. I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're say. Taste and Racism? Segregation?

What are you talking about?

You're saying that your entire opposition to this is because its in 'poor taste'. I say opposing this has nothing to do with taste, and everything to do with bigotry. The same way that many tried to argue that opposing desegregation was a matter of taste, or politeness. It wasn't that they didn't like blacks, they just didn't think they should mix in polite society. A matter of taste. At least man up and say "I don't like Muslims" instead of trying to pass it off that you just don't like the drapes or something.

360 jaunte  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:41:21am

re: #355 davesax

I'm a bigot because I think it's in poor taste to put a mosque/cultural center two blocks from ground zero?

I disagree.

And how is it bigoted to note that many muslims throughout the world rejoiced on September 11th? Charles has links to it on this site.

So, I don't it's bigoted to note that.

The bigoted part is the built-in assumption that all Muslims in the world are connected, think alike, act alike, share the same viewpoints, and are responsible for what each individual of the group does.

361 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:41:40am

re: #360 jaunte

The bigoted part is the built-in assumption that all Muslims in the world are connected, think alike, act alike, share the same viewpoints, and are responsible for what each individual of the group does.

WE ARE THE BORG

362 Aye Pod  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:41:42am

re: #342 Varek Raith

Ouch!
I blame Bush.
Get well soon Ice!

Thanks Varek. (Ice says Hi!)

Oh well, off to the shops for me again. Catch you all later :)

363 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:41:56am

re: #359 McSpiff

McSpiff: Are you an authority on taste and racism?

You're wrong that there is no difference between taste and racism. They're completely different words with different meanings.

But, if that's what you want to believe, by all means, that's your right.

I still disagree with you.

364 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:42:50am

re: #357 davesax

So tell me, then-- what's the difference between a mosque inside the Pentagon, and Park51?

The Pentagon is a 9/11 attack site. People died there, and yet no one's ever made an issue out of a mosque being inside it. It's not even two blocks away. It's inside the building. Is the Pentagon somehow not "hallowed ground", or is it somehow different from the WTC? If it is different, then why? And why focus all the outrageous outrage over Park51?

For all the emotional appeals people keep making about Park51, I've never seen an answer for that. Why get all up in arms about one of them, but not the other?

365 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:43:24am

re: #359 McSpiff

You're saying that your entire opposition to this is because its in 'poor taste'. I say opposing this has nothing to do with taste, and everything to do with bigotry

I have no opposition to the mosque

That stated, do you think it would be poor taste for it, as reported, to have it's grand opening on 9/11/2011 or am I a bigot for finding that (if accurate) distasteful?

366 McSpiff  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:43:46am

re: #363 davesax

McSpiff: Are you an authority on taste and racism?

You're wrong that there is no difference between taste and racism. They're completely different words with different meanings.

But, if that's what you want to believe, by all means, that's your right.

I still disagree with you.

I'm saying historically your argument has been used as a thin vernier over some extremely ugly racism. If you're too stupid to know that, there's nothing I can do. Interracial marriage was opposed as a matter of taste by many.

Its extremely clear to everyone here that you don't like Muslims as a group. Do you disagree?

367 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:43:49am

re: #360 jaunte

Jaunte.

I've made my point. I never said all Muslims were connected.

I said this was an open wound. Let it be.

It's an issue of taste.

Feel free to read into it more than that.

I feel as I feel. Or, as the new hero on these boards - Michael Bloomberg - likes to say, "I am what I am."

Have a good weekend.

368 It's a cookbook!  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:43:55am

re: #364 Lidane

So tell me, then-- what's the difference between a mosque inside the Pentagon, and Park51?

The Pentagon is a 9/11 attack site. People died there, and yet no one's ever made an issue out of a mosque being inside it. It's not even two blocks away. It's inside the building. Is the Pentagon somehow not "hallowed ground", or is it somehow different from the WTC? If it is different, then why? And why focus all the outrageous outrage over Park51?

For all the emotional appeals people keep making about Park51, I've never seen an answer for that. Why get all up in arms about one of them, but not the other?

Give them time! Jeez... They only only handle so many outrages at once, you know.

369 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:44:42am

re: #355 davesax

I'm a bigot because I think it's in poor taste to put a mosque/cultural center two blocks from ground zero?

I disagree.

And how is it bigoted to note that many muslims throughout the world rejoiced on September 11th? Charles has links to it on this site.

So, I don't it's bigoted to note that.

So, you equate many Muslims throughout the world to the American-Muslims who want to build this mosque.

Broad brushed - Sweepingly general in scope or thrust.

Major fail on your part. Why don't you just admit that your stance is bigoted. You have laid out all the typical bigoted arguments... "many Muslims," "poor taste," "Most of the public is opposed."

If most of the public wanted to reinstate slavery, you'd have to go along with it.

Lame unsupportable positions.

Admit you're a bigot.

370 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:45:21am

re: #365 sattv4u2

You're saying that your entire opposition to this is because its in 'poor taste'. I say opposing this has nothing to do with taste, and everything to do with bigotry

I have no opposition to the mosque

That stated, do you think it would be poor taste for it, as reported, to have it's grand opening on 9/11/2011 or am I a bigot for finding that (if accurate) distasteful?

The 9/11 opening date is false. Created and spread by those who want to make these people look bad.

371 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:45:22am

re: #366 McSpiff

It's "extremely clear" I'm "too stupid"?

Well, all due respect, I really don't see much meat to your arguments, expect to call me a racist, which I think is very lame.

Have a good weekend, McSpiff.

372 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:45:34am

Fresh warm French Bread with melted cheese, Peppers/Eggs/Ham/Tomato


Life is good!

373 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:46:17am

re: #369 Walter L. Newton

I'd have to go along with SLAVERY?

374 McSpiff  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:46:17am

re: #371 davesax

It's "extremely clear" I'm "too stupid"?

Well, all due respect, I really don't see much meat to your arguments, expect to call me a racist, which I think is very lame.

Have a good weekend, McSpiff.

Enjoy your cave.

375 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:46:22am

re: #370 Stanley Sea

The 9/11 opening date is false. Created and spread by those who want to make these people look bad.

That wasn't the question

Would you find it distasteful IF it was to open on that date?

376 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:46:48am

Well, all, this has been fun.

Have a great weekend!

377 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:47:14am

re: #373 davesax

I'd have to go along with SLAVERY?

Answer the question about the Pentagon Mosque.

Please!!

378 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:47:54am

re: #375 sattv4u2

That wasn't the question

Would you find it distasteful IF it was to open on that date?

I am not going to opine on a lie created to make someone look bad. Nope.

I mean, come on!

379 McSpiff  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:48:35am

re: #365 sattv4u2

You're saying that your entire opposition to this is because its in 'poor taste'. I say opposing this has nothing to do with taste, and everything to do with bigotry

I have no opposition to the mosque

That stated, do you think it would be poor taste for it, as reported, to have it's grand opening on 9/11/2011 or am I a bigot for finding that (if accurate) distasteful?

I have no idea if that is in fact the opening date for the community center. But I do know that Eid, the festival celebrating the end of Ramadan falls on the 10th or 11th. So I fully expect to see muslims celebrating. Would you not celebrate Christmas because some christians commited a crime on that date? I have no idea what the right answer is. But i must run.

380 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:49:14am

re: #378 Stanley Sea

I am not going to opine on a lie created to make someone look bad. Nope.

I mean, come on!

So hypothetical excesses can't be discussed/ introduced?

K

381 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:49:22am

Hello, all.

As always, a straw man - the question wasn't whether Muslims could practice their religion, but whether one particular mosque could or should be built on one particular bit of real estate. Still, it's always easiest to oversimplify the matter.

I'm agnostic on the thing - it's a local matter, despite the funding coming in from sources unknown; it's up to the local authorities whether to approve construction, and they seem perfectly fine with it.

382 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:50:18am

re: #355 davesax

I'm a bigot because I think it's in poor taste to put a mosque/cultural center two blocks from ground zero?

Yes.

And how is it bigoted to note that many muslims throughout the world rejoiced on September 11th? Charles has links to it on this site.

Because many muslims, especially Sufi and Kosovar muslims, did not rejoice. But you hold tightly to a blanket, universal intolerance of all Islam.

383 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:50:30am

re: #380 sattv4u2

So hypothetical excesses can't be discussed/ introduced?

K

Not when it's intention is to smear someone falsely. You have to stop somewhere you know.

384 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:50:32am

re: #378 Stanley Sea

re: #380 sattv4u2

So hypothetical excesses EXERCISES can't be discussed/ introduced?

K

pimf

385 Gitarzan  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:50:32am

re: #355 davesax

I'm a bigot because I think it's in poor taste to put a mosque/cultural center two blocks from ground zero?

I disagree.

And how is it bigoted to note that many muslims throughout the world rejoiced on September 11th? Charles has links to it on this site.

So, I don't it's bigoted to note that.

If it the shoe fits...

/guilt by association isn't and shouldn't be the American Way

386 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:51:44am

Would I be a bigot if I said;
No more Churches near abortion clinics?
No more Churches near Federal buildings?
No more Churches near where children congregate?

Answer?
YES! YES, IT WOULD BE BIGOTED OF ME TO SAY THAT!
Sheesh.

387 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:52:43am

Who the hell is "Desperate Hippy", and why doesn't he put down the bong and say something?

388 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:52:55am

re: #379 McSpiff

I have no idea if that is in fact the opening date for the community center. But I do know that Eid, the festival celebrating the end of Ramadan falls on the 10th or 11th. So I fully expect to see muslims celebrating. Would you not celebrate Christmas because some christians commited a crime on that date? I have no idea what the right answer is. But i must run.

My "celebration" would be a LOT different than in years past

I have a (Catholic) friend whose mother died on a Christmas Day..

The family still "celebrates" Christmas, but there is definitely a different feel now

389 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:53:36am

re: #387 Cato the Elder

Who the hell is "Desperate Hippy", and why doesn't he put down the bong and say something?

Because
A) he's desperate
and
B) he's a hippy!!

Ggeeezzz!!

390 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:54:40am

re: #387 Cato the Elder

Who the hell is "Desperate Hippy", and why doesn't he put down the bong and say something?

I put it down. Oh, you mean someone with the nic Desperate Hippy...

391 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:55:55am

re: #245 Kobalt

How about a Republican IN OFFICE?

Ah, the best way to win an argument. Move the goalposts.

392 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:56:05am

re: #168 davesax

Agree with you about Saudi funding having to be proved.

But the press, Bloomberg, and this blog are not interested in that. There has been absolutely no effort at public due diligence.

You either stand with Charles, or you're "ignorant".

And after everything we discussed, here you are back again spewing the same ignorant bullshit.

393 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:56:26am

Can we please find a new outrage? Aren't these mosque trolls exhausted yet?

394 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:57:28am

re: #393 tnguitarist

Can we please find a new outrage? Aren't these mosque trolls exhausted yet?

How about the fact that the First Lady was in town Thursday night and DIDN'T SAY HELLO!?!?!

395 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 8:57:48am

re: #393 tnguitarist

Can we please find a new outrage? Aren't these mosque trolls exhausted yet?

Howzabout whether POTUS et family will swim in the gulf waters, and what meaning se can attach to the decision?

(By the way, you think he's sick of eating shrimp yet to demonstrate its safety?)

396 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:00:20am

re: #394 Varek Raith

How about the fact that the First Lady was in town Thursday night and DIDN'T SAY HELLO!?!?!

Her hubby snubbed me when he swung by the Lone Star State, too. Geez! What's WITH these people?

397 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:00:24am

re: #395 Guanxi88

Howzabout whether POTUS et family will swim in the gulf waters, and what meaning se can attach to the decision?

(By the way, you think he's sick of eating shrimp yet to demonstrate its safety?)

He should parasail over the water, looking down upon to survey his dominion. That would piss em off.

398 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:00:30am

re: #394 Varek Raith

How about the fact that the First Lady was in town Thursday night and DIDN'T SAY HELLO!?!?!

She did
Just not to you!

399 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:01:16am

re: #398 sattv4u2

She did
Just not to you!

OUTRAGEOUS OUTRAGE!!!

400 Lidane  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:01:35am

re: #393 tnguitarist

Can we please find a new outrage? Aren't these mosque trolls exhausted yet?

Seriously. You'd think that all the outrageous outrage would get tiring after a while.

401 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:01:42am

re: #397 tnguitarist

He should parasail over the water, looking down upon to survey his dominion. That would piss em off.

A parasailing POTUS; it's an amusing image, but not one the Secret Service ever hope to see, I'm sure.

402 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:02:03am

re: #380 sattv4u2

So hypothetical excesses can't be discussed/ introduced?

K

Fine, I'll indulge this idiocy. Exactly how reasonable is this hypothesis when we examine it? They just got clearance from the Landmark Preservation Board and are entering phase two, design. Then a funding plan, fundraising, hiring contractors, groundbreaking, inspections, construction, more inspections, finishing, final inspections, and then it can be opened for use.

How the fuck could they know when the building would be finished and have planned a 9/11 opening before the design phase has even begun?

What exactly is the purpose of entertaining repeating this obvious bullshit?

403 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:02:25am

re: #400 Lidane

Seriously. You'd think that all the outrageous outrage would get tiring after a while.

"just think of all the fun you'll be missing. You won't have Barry Obama to kick around anymore."

404 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:03:27am

re: #297 SeafoodGumbo

Thanks for the suggestion, but I will have to ignore your advice.

Understood. Fear, anger and hate are such warm, wonderful things. Who would want to give that up? /

405 mr.fusion  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:06:52am

The scariest thing about this is the way the hatred and bigotry seems to be resonating with so many Americans. Can you imagine what would be going on in this country right now with a President McCain and VP Palin? I'm picturing national guard at Park51 ala McGovern in Bama...obviously a ground war with Iran...GM would be out of business with about another 3 million out of work, and forget about unemployment benefits (that most of the unemployed have paid into for their entire lives), etc etc etc...

It is scary as hell how this message of hate, divisiveness and bigotry is resonating and how close we are to having them back in power...

406 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:07:49am

I see that 'desperate hippy' (who is in the Netherlands) went through this thread dinging up every bigoted comment and dinging down every reasonable comment. All without posting a single comment himself since 2006.

That's the last time.

407 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:08:00am

re: #405 mr.fusion

The scariest thing about this is the way the hatred and bigotry seems to be resonating with so many Americans. Can you imagine what would be going on in this country right now with a President McCain and VP Palin? I'm picturing national guard at Park51 ala McGovern in Bama...obviously a ground war with Iran...GM would be out of business with about another 3 million out of work, and forget about unemployment benefits (that most of the unemployed have paid into for their entire lives), etc etc etc...

It is scary as hell how this message of hate, divisiveness and bigotry is resonating and how close we are to having them back in power...

... strikes deep.
Into your life, it will creep.
It happens, when you're always afraid;
Step outta line, the man come, and take you away.

408 jc717  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:08:15am

Good speech. He should have given it 2 weeks ago. Better late than never though.

409 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:09:20am

re: #405 mr.fusion

The scariest thing about this is the way the hatred and bigotry seems to be resonating with so many Americans. Can you imagine what would be going on in this country right now with a President McCain and VP Palin? I'm picturing national guard at Park51 ala McGovern in Bama...obviously a ground war with Iran...GM would be out of business with about another 3 million out of work, and forget about unemployment benefits (that most of the unemployed have paid into for their entire lives), etc etc etc...

It is scary as hell how this message of hate, divisiveness and bigotry is resonating and how close we are to having them back in power...

And I imagine your hyperbole is a bunch of bullshit... but that's just me. Your rhetoric and position is as lame as people like Davesax. This kind of crap is the same side of stupid.

410 Gitarzan  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:09:51am

re: #406 Charles

I see that 'desperate hippy' (who is in the Netherlands) went through this thread dinging up every bigoted comment and dinging down every reasonable comment. All without posting a single comment himself since 2006.

That's the last time.

I'm guessing they're a Geert Wilders fan...

/and now they're gone like a fart in the wind

411 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:11:48am

re: #402 goddamnedfrank

How the fuck could they know when the building would be finished and have planned a 9/11 opening before the design phase has even begun

You obviously have no clue about the construction business
(and it's always nice to see you raise the bar of the discussion with your swearing and name calling!)

412 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:12:34am

re: #409 Walter L. Newton

I don't agree with you at all. It is scary to see this tide of bigotry catching on like this. And it's not hyperbole, when the ENTIRE GOP signs on to it.

413 Gitarzan  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:13:26am

re: #401 Guanxi88

A parasailing POTUS; it's an amusing image, but not one the Secret Service ever hope to see, I'm sure.

Just hope he didn't parasail during duck season...or near a skeet range.

414 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:14:46am

re: #413 talon_262

Just hope he didn't parasail during duck season...or near a skeet range.

I disagree with the man's judgment on many matters, but do not doubt that he's got the wisdom necessary to make any parasailing - should he indulge in so odd a sport - forays into safe and neutral airspace.

415 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:15:01am

re: #412 Charles

I don't agree with you at all. It is scary to see this tide of bigotry catching on like this. And it's not hyperbole, when the ENTIRE GOP signs on to it.

The highlighted part, esp. the with a President McCain and VP Palin,,I'm picturing national guard at Park51 ala McGovern in Bama..was the hyperbole, no?

416 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:15:17am

re: #409 Walter L. Newton

And I imagine your hyperbole is a bunch of bullshit... but that's just me. Your rhetoric and position is as lame as people like Davesax. This kind of crap is the same side of stupid.

I think war with Iran would have been a distinct possibility.

417 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:15:37am

re: #415 sattv4u2

The highlighted part, esp. the with a President McCain and VP Palin,,I'm picturing national guard at Park51 ala McGovern in Bama..was the hyperbole, no?

Of course not...
//

418 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:15:39am

re: #416 tnguitarist

I think war with Iran would have been a distinct possibility.

And is to this minute, lest we forget.

419 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:15:54am

re: #416 tnguitarist

I think war with Iran would have been a distinct possibility.

You think thats off the table with this admin?

420 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:16:52am

re: #411 sattv4u2

How the fuck could they know when the building would be finished and have planned a 9/11 opening before the design phase has even begun

You obviously have no clue about the construction business
(and it's always nice to see you raise the bar of the discussion with your swearing and name calling!)

Beat it bigot. The only reason you brought up this ignorant rumor is because you want to associate the project with 9/11.

421 ihateronpaul  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:17:12am

Very courageous. I can bet $1000 the hot air crowd will use this as proof of obamas sekrit moosliim-ness

422 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:17:21am

re: #419 sattv4u2

You think thats off the table with this admin?

Not off the table. I'm saying we would probably already be there. Remember the ole 'bomb, bomb, bomb Iran' tune?

423 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:17:37am

re: #420 goddamnedfrank

Beat it bigot. The only reason you brought up this ignorant rumor is because you want to associate the project with 9/11.

LOL,,LOL
Go back and read my comments on this thread!

424 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:17:50am

re: #416 tnguitarist

I think war with Iran would have been a distinct possibility.

It's a distinct possibility now. My comment was in regards to the hyperbolic cascading concept that Mr. Fusion was trying to present. Really.

425 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:18:47am

re: #406 Charles

I see that 'desperate hippy' (who is in the Netherlands) went through this thread dinging up every bigoted comment and dinging down every reasonable comment. All without posting a single comment himself since 2006.

That's the last time.

Next up: CommonMan

426 ihateronpaul  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:19:36am

re: #408 jc717

Good speech. He should have given it 2 weeks ago. Better late than never though.

your comment/avatar combo is quite jarring

427 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:19:48am

re: #417 Walter L. Newton

Of course not...
//

Fortunate indeed is the nation spared the inevitable descent into the dark night of McCain/Palin totalitarianism; we sure dodged a bullet with that one, to say nothing of the great good fortune, in this, the 31st month of the Depression that dare not speak its name, to be spared the additional burdens on the poor, long-suffering populace, unceremoniously evicted from work and home to make way for barracks-cum-mega-churches for the goose-stepping stormtroopers of the theocratic national guard.

428 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:20:26am

re: #422 tnguitarist

Not off the table. I'm saying we would probably already be there. Remember the ole 'bomb, bomb, bomb Iran' tune?

Circa 1979 was when I first heard it. Damn you, Carter!

429 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:21:33am

re: #392 Charles

Bullshit?

Don't be so self righteous.

We've all made some controversial calls over the years.

After all, the swift boat veterans for truth weren't exactly roll models for tolerance.

430 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:22:10am

re: #428 Guanxi88

Circa 1979 was when I first heard it. Damn you, Carter!

First of all, McCain literally sang those words. Second of all, we weren't in two other wars at that time.

431 CommonMan  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:22:22am

re: #210 Lidane

And yet, while it is perfectly legal to build Park51 they should also realize that it is an insensitive thing to do. It is up to them to continue with a legal but offensive project.

432 RadicalModerate  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:22:47am

re: #429 davesax

Bullshit?

Don't be so self righteous.

We've all made some controversial calls over the years.

After all, the swift boat veterans for truth weren't exactly roll models for tolerance.

Or truth either, for that matter.

433 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:22:49am

re: #422 tnguitarist

Not off the table. I'm saying we would probably already be there. Remember the ole 'bomb, bomb, bomb Iran' tune?

It was first aired on KFQD Radio (where Rivers was program director) in Anchorage, Alaska on Apr. 25, 1980...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Get a grip.

434 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:23:12am

re: #424 Walter L. Newton

It's a distinct possibility now. My comment was in regards to the hyperbolic cascading concept that Mr. Fusion was trying to present. Really.

In fairness to Mr. Fusion and human nature, these occasional expeditions out to where the buses don't run are not, on their own, indications of anything other than an active imagination.

435 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:23:20am

re: #420 goddamnedfrank

Because I know you're too lazy too

here

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

{sigh}

436 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:23:37am

re: #433 Walter L. Newton

It was first aired on KFQD Radio (where Rivers was program director) in Anchorage, Alaska on Apr. 25, 1980...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Get a grip.

Was a presidential candidate singing it then?

437 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:24:25am

Man, they are really coming out of the woodwork.

438 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:24:46am

re: #434 Guanxi88

In fairness to Mr. Fusion and human nature, these occasional expeditions out to where the buses don't run are not, on their own, indications of anything other than an active imagination.

I LOVE that phrase

1st I ever saw/ heard it was in Kinky Friedmans novels. Same with you?

439 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:25:07am

re: #430 tnguitarist

First of all, McCain literally sang those words. Second of all, we weren't in two other wars at that time.

So, it would have been a theocratic warrior state - Empire abroad, penury and repression at home; sorta like a cross between North Korea, Apartheid RSA, and Jesus Camp? Something along those lines, perhaps, seems unlikely of accomplishment.

440 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:25:08am

re: #431 CommonMan

And yet, while it is perfectly legal to build Park51 they should also realize that it is an insensitive thing to do. It is up to them to continue with a legal but offensive project.

When the 23 amendment to the constitution was created, it's anti-slavery protection was offensive to a lot of people in this country. Guess what? Offensive doesn't cut it in a court of law.

Deal with it.

441 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:25:30am

re: #438 sattv4u2

I LOVE that phrase

1st I ever saw/ heard it was in Kinky Friedmans novels. Same with you?

Yep, the Kinkster. Also a big fan of "cooking on another planet."

442 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:26:02am

re: #439 Guanxi88

So, it would have been a theocratic warrior state - Empire abroad, penury and repression at home; sorta like a cross between North Korea, Apartheid RSA, and Jesus Camp? Something along those lines, perhaps, seems unlikely of accomplishment.

Did I say any of that?

443 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:26:12am

re: #441 Guanxi88

Yep, the Kinkster. Also a big fan of "cooking on another planet."

tripping over a rainbow

444 darthstar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:26:20am

re: #437 Charles

Man, they are really coming out of the woodwork.

It's been an interesting morning. I haven't even posted much because the back and forth has been so funny I didn't think there was anything to add.

445 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:26:32am

re: #443 sattv4u2

tripping over a rainbow

"stepped on a rainbow and went to meet Jesus>'

446 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:27:47am

re: #445 Guanxi88

"stepped on a rainbow and went to meet Jesus>'

Sleep came slower than a frigid woman.

447 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:27:47am

re: #442 tnguitarist

Did I say any of that?

No, not you; I was sorta riffing on the Mr. Fusion bit; I've been guilty of such excesses in the past; in some ways, they're not only a good bit of fun - like campfire stories for the political junkies - but I think they're even useful intellectual exercises.

Sketch out your worst, most dramatic fears, say them out loud, and then laugh at your folly.

448 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:28:39am

re: #436 tnguitarist

Was a presidential candidate singing it then?

No. You're right. It's a major issue and we certainly just missed biting the bullet on that one. And speaking of parody songs and satire, I hope the hell none of those satirical little trickers from Saturday Night Live even run for office.

My goodness, some of the things they sang and said over the years, well, my gosh, if one of those jolly little life of the party ever became a senator... the shit could hit the fan.

Franken.

449 CommonMan  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:28:51am

re: #440 Walter L. Newton

I said that it is perfectly legal to continue with a project, it is not about a court of law. The people doing the project should realize it may not help to bridge the differences.

450 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:29:27am

re: #446 sattv4u2

Sleep came slower than a frigid woman.

Golf is the only opportunity that middle-aged Wasps have to dress up like a pimp.

451 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:29:28am

re: #436 tnguitarist

Was a presidential candidate singing it then?

Down the memory hole.

Oh and wrench - way to call it!

452 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:29:44am

re: #447 Guanxi88

No, not you; I was sorta riffing on the Mr. Fusion bit; I've been guilty of such excesses in the past; in some ways, they're not only a good bit of fun - like campfire stories for the political junkies - but I think they're even useful intellectual exercises.

Sketch out your worst, most dramatic fears, say them out loud, and then laugh at your folly.

My only concern is war. If we weren't embroiled in two other wars, it would be a different story. Where would we get the money? Where would we get the troops? We are stretched extremely thin right now.

453 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:30:14am

re: #449 CommonMan

I said that it is perfectly legal to continue with a project, it is not about a court of law. The people doing the project should realize it may not help to bridge the differences.

Well, no, if people like you keep up with your bigotry towards the project, nothing is going to help to bridge the differences.

454 darthstar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:30:27am

re: #431 CommonMan

And yet, while it is perfectly legal to build Park51 they should also realize that it is an insensitive thing to do. It is up to them to continue with a legal but offensive project.

You know what I find offensive? Bake sales where people buy those plastic tubs of crappy cookies at Costco and then put them on a plate for a buck a piece to raise money for whatever it is they're raising money for because the brownies their kid made came out like crap.

455 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:30:42am

re: #450 Guanxi88

Golf is the only opportunity that middle-aged Wasps have to dress up like a pimp.

Just for the entertainment value, I REALLY wish he had won the governorship of Texas!

456 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:30:58am

re: #452 tnguitarist

My only concern is war. If we weren't embroiled in two other wars, it would be a different story. Where would we get the money? Where would we get the troops? We are stretched extremely thin right now.

I dunno - my grandkids' grandkids are covering the stimulus, bailouts, and expanded unemployment and so forth; maybe their kids' grandkids could cover it.

457 LemonJoose  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:31:05am

There's a difference between acknowledging that they have the right to build the mosque there (which they do), and asking them to exercise good judgment and demonstrating that they care about the feelings of most of their fellow Americans. The choice is theirs -- they have the right to build the mosque there. If they do, the rest of America has the right to conclude that they are a bunch of insensitive jerks who care more about promoting their religion and making some kind of statement than they do about developing good relations with their neighbors and their fellow Americans.

458 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:31:42am

re: #455 sattv4u2

Just for the entertainment value, I REALLY wish he had won the governorship of Texas!

Cats are a fairly right-wing group politically. They are lovers of the status quo. They don't like anything that might represent change. They hate marriages, divorces, moving days, graduations, bar mitzvahs, bill collectors, rug shampooers, painters, plumbers, electricians, television repairmen, out-call masseuses, Jehovah's Witnesses, and just about everything else, most of which I agree with them about.

459 CommonMan  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:31:44am

re: #454 darthstar

I'm with you.

460 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:32:07am

re: #452 tnguitarist

My only concern is war. If we weren't embroiled in two other wars, it would be a different story. Where would we get the money? Where would we get the troops? We are stretched extremely thin right now.

And of course, parody songs were never used in the past during wars, and about wars, and about supposed enemies...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

461 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:32:11am

re: #458 Guanxi88

Cats are a fairly right-wing group politically. They are lovers of the status quo. They don't like anything that might represent change. They hate marriages, divorces, moving days, graduations, bar mitzvahs, bill collectors, rug shampooers, painters, plumbers, electricians, television repairmen, out-call masseuses, Jehovah's Witnesses, and just about everything else, most of which I agree with them about.

I'd often felt that a man without a woman was like a neck without a pain

462 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:32:21am

I go away for a few hours of unconsciousness and come back to see that some wingnuts let the crazy all hang out. Oh well, there's still half a day to go, plenty of time for more mental lightweights to pop up and get smacked down.

463 CommonMan  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:32:34am

re: #453 Walter L. Newton

My bigotry? Hmm, ok.

464 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:32:42am

re: #457 LemonJoose

There's a difference between acknowledging that they have the right to build the mosque there (which they do), and asking them to exercise good judgment and demonstrating that they care about the feelings of most of their fellow Americans. The choice is theirs -- they have the right to build the mosque there. If they do, the rest of America has the right to conclude that they are a bunch of insensitive jerks who care more about promoting their religion and making some kind of statement than they do about developing good relations with their neighbors and their fellow Americans.

They could do NOTHING to make you folks happy. What a bunch of crap.

465 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:33:00am

re: #448 Walter L. Newton

No. You're right. It's a major issue and we certainly just missed biting the bullet on that one. And speaking of parody songs and satire, I hope the hell none of those satirical little trickers from Saturday Night Live even run for office.

My goodness, some of the things they sang and said over the years, well, my gosh, if one of those jolly little life of the party ever became a senator... the shit could hit the fan.

Franken.

Apples and oranges. During a time of war and facing rising tensions with another country, a presidential candidate was singing a little ditty about bombing the country in question. How is this the same? Was McCain on SNL when he sang it?

467 darthstar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:34:17am

re: #449 CommonMan

I said that it is perfectly legal to continue with a project, it is not about a court of law. The people doing the project should realize it may not help to bridge the differences.

So, you're going to just sit on your ass and wait for the bridge to reach you? What exactly are you doing to "help to bridge the differences"?

The Cordoba House/Park51 project isn't an assault on American values, nor is it an insult to victims of 9/11. What IS an assault on American values and an insult to the victims of 9/11 is the opposition to the building of a community center because the people building it happen to be muslim.

468 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:34:29am

re: #409 Walter L. Newton

Walter, you really take things personally, don't you?

469 RadicalModerate  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:34:41am

Yay. Another sleeper from the class of 2004 awakens.

470 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:34:47am

re: #457 LemonJoose

There's a difference between acknowledging that they have the right to build the mosque there (which they do), and asking them to exercise good judgment and demonstrating that they care about the feelings of most of their fellow Americans. The choice is theirs -- they have the right to build the mosque there. If they do, the rest of America has the right to conclude that they are a bunch of insensitive jerks who care more about promoting their religion and making some kind of statement than they do about developing good relations with their neighbors and their fellow Americans.

And the rest of America doesn't have the right to conclude that YOU are a insensitive bigot who cares more about promoting your political agenda and making some kind of statement than you do about developing good relations with fellow Muslim neighbors and fellow Americans who have the freedom to have their place of worship?

471 darthstar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:35:20am

re: #459 CommonMan

I'm with you.

Not even close.

472 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:36:10am

re: #460 Walter L. Newton

And of course, parody songs were never used in the past during wars, and about wars, and about supposed enemies...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

You're right. That ole jokester McCain was just joshin around folks. He's never really mentioned anything about going to war with Iran.

473 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:36:18am

re: #469 RadicalModerate

Yay. Another sleeper from the class of 2004 awakens.

it's the Spice. We knew it would change them.

474 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:36:43am

re: #468 davesax

Walter, you really take things personally, don't you?

I thought you promised to leave. In the least then, if you are going to stick around, answer some of the questions put to you.

Boring.

475 CommonMan  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:36:52am

re: #467 darthstar

The public campaign in opposition to this project is counter productive. People behind the project should realize that they are doing something insensitive.

476 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:37:10am

GODDAMNFRANK

Have you finished (or even started) reading the posts linked in #435?

Or would doing that prevent you from learning something!

477 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:37:56am

re: #475 CommonMan

Good grief.

478 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:38:09am

re: #468 davesax

What's your take on the Pentagon Mosque Dave??

479 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:38:18am

re: #475 CommonMan

The public campaign in opposition to this project is counter productive. People behind the project should realize that they are doing something insensitive.

Yes, apparently building a mosque anywhere in this country is now considered "insensitive," since there's protests against them in several cities and towns across the country, even as far as away from Ground Zero as California.

480 Soap_Man  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:38:29am

Morning all.

Looks like the Corboda House issue really brings out the trolls. But that's fine. Chance for a little late-summer cleaning.

481 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:38:36am

re: #472 tnguitarist

You're right. That ole jokester McCain was just joshin around folks. He's never really mentioned anything about going to war with Iran.

Lets look at this another way (i.e. logically)

Do you or do you not think the Dept of Defense WITH this current admins consent has a plan on the table for the invasion of Iran, whether or not it's put to song?

482 LemonJoose  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:38:38am

re: #470 Walter L. Newton

You have the right to conclude whatever you want about me, but it doesn't mean you're right, and it doesn't mean I care.

483 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:39:02am

re: #475 CommonMan

The public campaign in opposition to this project is counter productive. People behind the project should realize that they are doing something insensitive.

I have never seen the far right use the word 'insensitive' so much. I remember when the liberals were the ones whose feelings were getting hurt all the time.

484 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:39:20am

re: #479 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yes, apparently building a mosque anywhere in this country is now considered "insensitive," since there's protests against them in several cities and towns across the country, even as far as away from Ground Zero as California.

WE ARE ALL GROUND ZERO
9_9

485 darthstar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:39:30am

re: #475 CommonMan

The public campaign in opposition to this project is counter productive. People behind the project should realize that they are doing something insensitive.

They're building a community center. There's another mosque within a block or two of Ground Zero (is that one insensitive? it's been there for forty years). What's insensitive is the reaction to the project. Intolerance is ugly, and the irony is that the uglier people act toward the Cordoba project, the more people blame the victims of this assault (the Cordoba project) for the ugliness they see in themselves.

486 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:39:40am

re: #475 CommonMan

The public campaign in opposition to this project is counter productive. People behind the project should realize that they are doing something insensitive.

Maybe you will answer my question, since you keep tracking on this line of faulty reasoning.

When the 13th amendment to the constitution was created, it's anti-slavery protection was offensive to a lot of people in this country. Guess what? Offensive doesn't cut it in a court of law.

Deal with it.

487 bratwurst  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:40:11am

re: #457 LemonJoose

The class of 2004 strikes again!

488 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:40:13am

re: #475 CommonMan

The public campaign in opposition to this project is counter productive. People behind the project should realize that they are doing something insensitive.

And when will you realize how insensitive you are being?

489 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:40:14am

You know what? I love the karma feature. You can see when someone's made over 500 comments & is negative. Saves time.

490 Soap_Man  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:40:45am

re: #475 CommonMan

The public campaign in opposition to this project is counter productive. People behind the project should realize that they are doing something insensitive.

And if it was built on the upper west side, it would be insensitive. If it was built in the Bronx it would be insensitive. If it was built in Yonkers it would be insensitive. Etc.

The location is irrelevant. I mean, it really is.

491 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:41:02am

re: #482 LemonJoose

You have the right to conclude whatever you want about me, but it doesn't mean you're right, and it doesn't mean I care.

But it does mean you are a bigot.

492 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:41:37am

re: #457 LemonJoose

There's a difference between acknowledging that they have the right to build the mosque there (which they do), and asking them to exercise good judgment and demonstrating that they care about the feelings of most of their fellow Americans. The choice is theirs -- they have the right to build the mosque there. If they do, the rest of America has the right to conclude that they are a bunch of insensitive jerks who care more about promoting their religion and making some kind of statement than they do about developing good relations with their neighbors and their fellow Americans.

I'll say this once, and I'll say it again. Where else in Lower Manhattan could this be built. Give me concrete examples, no platitudes. And what about the Muslims in Murfreesboro and Temecula, among other places? What about the bombing of the mosque in Jacksonville, and other incidents. They are far from Ground Zero, and these guys also have to put up with all sorts of atrocious behavior. Would you condemn those mistreating these Muslims.

A question to all the bloggers like Cato and the others who have been here a long time. What exactly is the limit of criticism I can use on the anti-Muslim bigots. I fed up with these low-lifes.

493 SeafoodGumbo  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:41:53am

re: #412 Charles

I don't agree with you at all. It is scary to see this tide of bigotry catching on like this. And it's not hyperbole, when the ENTIRE GOP signs on to it.

Charles,

Were you a bigot when you approved of shutting down a Muslim high school in Virginia?

Or when you posted articles in the past that 85% of mosques in this country have extremist leadership?

494 CommonMan  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:41:54am

re: #483 tnguitarist

Far right? :) Now this is funny.

495 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:42:02am

re: #492 ProLifeLiberal

I'll say this once, and I'll say it again

huh !?!?!

LOL

496 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:42:03am

re: #481 sattv4u2

Lets look at this another way (i.e. logically)

Do you or do you not think the Dept of Defense WITH this current admins consent has a plan on the table for the invasion of Iran, whether or not it's put to song?

I'm not even arguing that. I'm sure we do and we should. I was talking about McCain's irresponsibility. To me, potential war is something you don't joke about if you're the person that could possibly be in charge of running that war.

497 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:43:05am

re: #492 ProLifeLiberal

A question to all the bloggers like Cato and the others who have been here a long time. What exactly is the limit of criticism I can use on the anti-Muslim bigots. I fed up with these low-lifes.

If you have read Cato's comments, you should realize you can go pretty far in your criticism. And rhyming helps.

498 CommonMan  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:43:05am

re: #486 Walter L. Newton

Maybe you will answer my question, since you keep tracking on this line of faulty reasoning.

When the 13th amendment to the constitution was created, it's anti-slavery protection was offensive to a lot of people in this country. Guess what? Offensive doesn't cut it in a court of law.

Deal with it.

What's your question?

499 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:43:34am

re: #496 tnguitarist

I'm not even arguing that. I'm sure we do and we should. I was talking about McCain's irresponsibility. To me, potential war is something you don't joke about if you're the person that could possibly be in charge of running that war.

How is it irresponsible when EVERY President since Carter has STATED that when it comes to Iran NOTHING is off the table

500 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:44:02am

re: #495 sattv4u2

I think I've said the "where else can they build the community center" line in the past on previous blog posts. I might be wrong, and I might have confused it with some chats I've had on Facebook.

501 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:44:28am

re: #493 SeafoodGumbo

Ah. Class of '07. Reine told us...

502 darthstar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:44:35am

It's a fucking FLOUNCEKRIEG! Incoming! Seafood Gumbo, Lemonjoose, CommonMan, Kobalt (with a K)...this really is a coordinated assault on reason.

Sheesh.

503 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:44:35am

re: #494 CommonMan

re: #482 LemonJoose

re: #468 davesax

You know, as a conservative, this shit really pisses me off. Insensitive, offensive... whatever... you all sound like a bunch of whiny liberals.

(Liberals... I know, that was a cheap shot, but I had to make a point, excuse me)

504 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:44:39am

re: #499 sattv4u2

How is it irresponsible when EVERY President since Carter has STATED that when it comes to Iran NOTHING is off the table

I'm talking about singing the damn song and making a joke about war. Did you read my comment?

505 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:45:24am

re: #493 SeafoodGumbo

Before YOU go asking questions, YOU still haven't answered
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
yet

The room awaits !

506 jaunte  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:45:28am

re: #500 ProLifeLiberal

I've seen the question asked here a lot, and the only concrete answer I've seen yet was 'maybe Brooklyn.'

507 LemonJoose  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:45:33am

re: #492 ProLifeLiberal

Yes, I condemn any kind of terrorism, whether it is the 9/11 bombing or bombing those mosques you refer to.

508 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:45:56am

re: #504 tnguitarist

I'm talking about singing the damn song and making a joke about war. Did you read my comment?

OH NOES ,, SOMEONE SANG A SONG !

509 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:46:37am

re: #499 sattv4u2

How is it irresponsible when EVERY President since Carter has STATED that when it comes to Iran NOTHING is off the table

I mean, come on. Admit it was a gaff by McCain to sing that into the open mic, not worth defending, it was a stupid gaff.

510 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:46:46am

re: #493 SeafoodGumbo

When did it become fashionable to equate a school that undoubtedly has extremist associations to a project by an Imam with a long history of promoting tolerance?

Go ahead, keep trying to throw my past posts in my face, and just ignore the fact that I never tried to equate all Muslims with extremists. I argued against this kind of crap from the start.

And go ahead and keep demonizing decent people. See where that gets you.

511 darthstar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:47:09am

re: #503 Walter L. Newton

re: #482 LemonJoose

re: #468 davesax

You know, as a conservative, this shit really pisses me off. Insensitive, offensive... whatever... you all sound like a bunch of whiny liberals.

(Liberals... I know, that was a cheap shot, but I had to make a point, excuse me)

Hey, we whiny liberals were against stupid shit because it was illegal, not because it was insensitive.

But yes, they are being rather hypersensitive I agree.

512 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:47:45am

re: #509 Stanley Sea

I mean, come on. Admit it was a gaff by McCain to sing that into the open mic, not worth defending, it was a stupid gaff.

and ?!?!?!?

513 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:48:40am

re: #493 SeafoodGumbo

Charles,

Were you a bigot when you approved of shutting down a Muslim high school in Virginia?

Or when you posted articles in the past that 85% of mosques in this country have extremist leadership?

If you were using your brain instead of your limbic system, you would see that the fact that Charles can criticize extremist Muslims and defend moderate Muslims makes him a more reliable commentator, not a less reliable one.

514 darthstar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:48:52am

re: #509 Stanley Sea

I mean, come on. Admit it was a gaff by McCain to sing that into the open mic, not worth defending, it was a stupid gaff.

Speaking of McCain, now that he feels confident he'll win the primary he's walking back his comments on repealing the 14th Amendment. Dude's a fucking wind-sock.

515 mr.fusion  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:48:59am

re: #409 Walter L. Newton

And I imagine your hyperbole is a bunch of bullshit... but that's just me. Your rhetoric and position is as lame as people like Davesax. This kind of crap is the same side of stupid.

Have you seen the rhetoric coming from every single major player on the right? Have you not thought at all about how these people would govern if given the opportunity? Seriously, when you have this type of talk coming from the leaders of the party you have to wonder what they would do if back in power...

516 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:49:30am

[Link: www.smh.com.au...]

The US and the West must acknowledge the harm they have done to Muslims before terrorism can end, says an Islamic cleric invited to Sydney by Premier Bob Carr.

New York-based Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, who impressed Mr Carr at an international conference last year, arrives in Sydney today for two weeks of meetings and public talks.

Speaking from his New York mosque, Imam Feisal said the West had to understand the terrorists' point of view.

In a move likely to cause controversy with church leaders, Imam Feisal said it was Christians who started mass attacks on civilians.

"The Islamic method of waging war is not to kill innocent civilians. But it was Christians in World War II who bombed civilians in Dresden and Hiroshima, neither of which were military targets."

Imam Feisal said the bombing in Madrid had made his message more urgent. He said there was an endless supply of angry young Muslim rebels prepared to die for their cause and there was no sign of the attacks ending unless there was a fundamental change in the world.

Imam Feisal, who argues for a Western style of Islam that promotes democracy and tolerance, said there could be little progress until the US acknowledged backing dictators and the US President gave an "America Culpa" speech to the Muslim world.

His major talks will be at noon on April 1 at St Mary's Cathedral with Cardinal George Pell and Mr Carr, and a public lecture at 6pm at the Wesley Centre in Pitt Street.

517 SeafoodGumbo  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:50:31am
518 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:50:58am

re: #516 Guanxi88


Probably the 200th time this article has been posted. And for the 200th time, I'll point out that all the inflammatory statements in that article are NOT DIRECT QUOTES. They're the words of the reporter.

519 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:51:21am

re: #508 sattv4u2

OH NOES ,, SOMEONE SANG A SONG !

Put it in this light...What if Obama had done it? So you think it's perfectly fine to joke about starting wars while soldiers are overseas dying in other wars? Forgive me for not being a warmonger, but when you live in an area where countless families are missing sons, daughters, fathers, mothers, etc., it tends to skew your perspective.
It's fun for us to sit back and treat war like it's some damn video game, but there is a real cost to it, and it's measured in human lives.

520 darthstar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:51:24am

re: #492 ProLifeLiberal


A question to all the bloggers like Cato and the others who have been here a long time. What exactly is the limit of criticism I can use on the anti-Muslim bigots. I fed up with these low-lifes.

I haven't been here a year yet, but just about anything short of calling them 'cocksucker' will probably fly...some people find that word, shall we say, insensitive.

521 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:51:36am

re: #517 SeafoodGumbo

Never forget.

Your motto could be NEVER ANSWER

# 276
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

STILL waiting

522 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:51:43am

re: #515 mr.fusion

Have you seen the rhetoric coming from every single major player on the right? Have you not thought at all about how these people would govern if given the opportunity? Seriously, when you have this type of talk coming from the leaders of the party you have to wonder what they would do if back in power...

You cannot, and must not, read too much into the things they may or may not say, or to the things they - or those close to them - have written. Guilt by association, dontcha know?

523 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:51:48am

re: #517 SeafoodGumbo

Remember, but don't use it as a substitute for thinking.

524 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:51:56am

re: #517 SeafoodGumbo

Never forget.

And please, always hate the wrong people.

The terrorists beat your ass!

525 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:52:01am

re: #517 SeafoodGumbo

Never forget.

That's right. Never forget that we were attacked by militant Islamists. And never forget that not all Muslims are evil terrorists.

It might be a good idea not to forget the First Amendment to the US Constitution either.

526 darthstar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:52:37am

re: #517 SeafoodGumbo

Never forget.

Those had better be Rick Astley videos, because if I click a link that shows me planes flying into buildings, I'll be fucking pissed.

527 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:52:40am

re: #518 Charles

Probably the 200th time this article has been posted. And for the 200th time, I'll point out that all the inflammatory statements in that article are NOT DIRECT QUOTES. They're the words of the reporter.

Excellent, then. So it's thoroughly debunked.

Did 60 minutes edit his comments and take them out of context? He's no Nasrullah, but he's not exactly a friendly chap, either.

528 swamprat  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:53:00am

I do not support this project.
But I absolutely support the owners right to build without having religious prejudice used as an argument against issuing zoning and building permits.
The arguments about feelings, taste, and to a degree, funding... are valid arguments, but only as arguments, not as legal points.
I think this project will be used as a talking point by idiots of every stripe and outlook...But that is not my call.
As to the aspersions cast about the funding... If the unlikely scenario is proved that terrorists funded a Sufi project, then there will be hell to pay, from a number of sources, legal and religious.

We don't change the rules because we don't like the players. THAT is about as un-American as it gets. You can complain, point and shout, whine, etc, but please don't think you have the right to impose your prejudices upon other people just because you don't like them, you question their motives, or you think they show bad taste or judgment.

I know what I am talking about; I owned a Gremlin.

529 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:53:55am

re: #517 SeafoodGumbo

Never forget.

Hey, you notice something you can't see in the videos? That's right: No single race, gender, or creed was the sole victim that day. There were Muslims amongst the Americans killed as well as Christians, Jews, and so forth. The actions of 19 fanatics does not make the deaths of those victims any less tragic or the persecution of their fellow adherents any less bigoted.

Now kindly go frak yourself.

530 darthstar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:54:41am

re: #528 swamprat


I know what I am talking about; I owned a Gremlin.

Whoa.

531 ihateronpaul  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:55:09am

re: #431 CommonMan

And yet, while it is perfectly legal to build Park51 they should also realize that it is an insensitive thing to do. It is up to them to continue with a legal but offensive project.

You know what's insensitive? Claiming that no moozlims should be allowed to practice their religion due to an arbitrary social construct about ground zero. If ground zero is so sacred, why is it a gaping sore with nothing there? Sure seems like we cared a whole fucking lot about it before this nontroversey reared it's ugly head, what with not building any sort of monument to it.

532 ihateronpaul  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:56:05am

re: #531 ihateronpaul

I meant at the site. Of course there is 9/11 memorials around the country, as there should be. but the fact that there isn't one at ground zero is stunning.

533 Soap_Man  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:56:18am

re: #517 SeafoodGumbo

Never forget.

Ah, I know this game. Try to support your "point" by invoking the tragic imagery of 9/11.

See, then when people see through it and down-ding the "fuck all Muslims" point you are going for by linking to those videos, you can report back to whatever blog you hail from and say "they downdinged me for Sept. 11 at LGF!!!1!1!!"

534 darthstar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:56:51am

re: #524 Stanley Sea

And please, always hate the wrong people.

The terrorists beat your ass!

Remember the Alamo!

(note: that's not an endorsement for SB1070)

535 SeafoodGumbo  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:56:51am

re: #510 Charles

When did it become fashionable to equate a school that undoubtedly has extremist associations to a project by an Imam with a long history of promoting tolerance?

Go ahead, keep trying to throw my past posts in my face, and just ignore the fact that I never tried to equate all Muslims with extremists. I argued against this kind of crap from the start.

And go ahead and keep demonizing decent people. See where that gets you.

Your blog has noted in the past that 85% of mosques in this country are funded by the Saudis and the Ground Zero mosque is not divulging where their funds are coming from, but it's wrong to have a problem with that?

536 CommonMan  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:57:51am

re: #531 ihateronpaul

You know what's insensitive? Claiming that no moozlims should be allowed to practice their religion due to an arbitrary social construct about ground zero. If ground zero is so sacred, why is it a gaping sore with nothing there? Sure seems like we cared a whole fucking lot about it before this nontroversey reared it's ugly head, what with not building any sort of monument to it.

Why "moozlims"? Are you trying to funny (didn't work) or offensive?

I don't know why there is a gaping sore at WTC. I wonder about that every time I see it.

537 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:57:54am

re: #535 SeafoodGumbo

Your blog has noted in the past that 85% of mosques in this country are funded by the Saudis and the Ground Zero mosque is not divulging where their funds are coming from, but it's wrong to have a problem with that?

nahh ,, it IS wrong to ignore/ not answer a direct question however!

#276 ,,, Still waiting!!

538 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:58:29am

re: #527 Guanxi88

Excellent, then. So it's thoroughly debunked.

Did 60 minutes edit his comments and take them out of context? He's no Nasrullah, but he's not exactly a friendly chap, either.

Is it really too much to ask that you go and read the many articles Imam Rauf has written, instead of relying on one article in an Australian newspaper that contains only ONE direct quote?

539 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:58:45am

re: #525 Charles

That's right. Never forget that we were attacked by militant Islamists. And never forget that not all Muslims are evil terrorists.

It might be a good idea not to forget the First Amendment to the US Constitution either.

What these folks want is a war with the entire Islamic world. They want to relive the Crusades.

540 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:58:48am

re: #515 mr.fusion

Have you seen the rhetoric coming from every single major player on the right? Have you not thought at all about how these people would govern if given the opportunity? Seriously, when you have this type of talk coming from the leaders of the party you have to wonder what they would do if back in power...

Boo...

541 darthstar  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 9:59:00am

Okay, folks...time to get off my ass and go for a bike ride.

Play nice.

542 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:00:07am

re: #539 tnguitarist

What these folks want is a war with the entire Islamic world. They want to relive the Crusades.

Except, of course, for the part where the Muslims subsequently kicked the Crusaders asses black and blue and threw them out of the Holy Land for generations.

543 Soap_Man  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:00:28am

I must say, this is the first time I have been on a thread where the original subject is still being discussed after 500 comments.

544 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:00:32am

re: #535 SeafoodGumbo

Your blog has noted in the past that 85% of mosques in this country are funded by the Saudis and the Ground Zero mosque is not divulging where their funds are coming from, but it's wrong to have a problem with that?

That's right, I did post that entry -- quoting a claim that eventually traced back to Stephen Schwartz. Obviously I can't go back and fact check every one of about 37,000 posts, but this one I did look into -- and there appears to be no valid source for this claim.

545 mr.fusion  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:00:54am

re: #522 Guanxi88

You cannot, and must not, read too much into the things they may or may not say, or to the things they - or those close to them - have written. Guilt by association, dontcha know?

It's not guilt by association when it's coming from the mouths of the leaders of the party. Hell, not just the leaders of the party, if you are a "conservative" you have to be deeeply offended by a community center being built kinda sorta almost near the WTC. You also have to ignore the fact that there's many-a-mosque in that area, you have to ignore the fact that there's a mosque built in the Pentagon, you have to ignore the fact that there are tens of thousands of Muslims worshiping every day near ground zero, you have to ignore the fact that the Imam has been tasked with outreach by the Bush administration, you have to ignore the first amendment, and on and on and on.

...these people don't think it belongs there. If they had the power what do you think they would do? Allow it to move forward as planned? I'm sorry but I don't think they would...

546 jaunte  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:01:40am

I'm sure the terrorists who attacked the WTC would be pleased to have the shriekingharpy and others who believe her confuse all Muslims for terrorists.

Here's her latest demagoguery:

"Obama came out for the Islamic supremacist mosque at the hallowed ground of 911 attack. He has, in effect, sided with the Islamic jihadists and told the ummah (at an Iftar dinner on the third night of Ramadan, of course) that he believes in and supports a triumphal mosque on the cherished site of Islamic conquest."

Magically the number of a radical minority is swelled to over a billion.
Nice work, Pam.

547 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:02:03am

re: #540 Walter L. Newton

Walter, I'm not sure what "questions" you want me to answer.

The one where you acccuse me of being a bigot, or the one saying I would approve of slavery?

;-)

548 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:02:10am

re: #542 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Except, of course, for the part where the Muslims subsequently kicked the Crusaders asses black and blue and threw them out of the Holy Land for generations.

That's why they want a redo. On a side note, I watched a great documentary on the dark ages last night.

549 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:02:12am

re: #538 Charles

Is it really too much to ask that you go and read the many articles Imam Rauf has written, instead of relying on one article in an Australian newspaper that contains only ONE direct quote?

In point of fact, I'll go ahead and say it - I'm less interested in what he writes for public consumption by Westerners than I am in what he does.

Hamas - does he have a position on them one way or another?

I've read his tripe about the Abrahamic faith and all the rest of it - it's slick and well-written dawah; nothing wrong with it, but let's not paint the guy as an Islamic Martin Luther.

550 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:02:38am

I wonder what will happen when Muslims try to open a prayer center in the new World Trade Center?

You know, like the one they had in the original WTC?

551 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:02:57am

re: #547 davesax

Walter, I'm not sure what "questions" you want me to answer.

The one where you acccuse me of being a bigot, or the one saying I would approve of slavery?

;-)

You know which one, your comment on the Pentagon Mosque.

552 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:03:33am

re: #549 Guanxi88

That's what I thought. You really don't care what he's written or what he's done. You just want to hate him. Facts be damned.

553 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:03:40am

re: #550 Charles

I wonder what will happen when Muslims try to open a prayer center in the new World Trade Center?

You know, like the one they had in the original WTC?

Heads will explode.

554 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:04:02am

re: #550 Charles

I wonder what will happen when Muslims try to open a prayer center in the new World Trade Center?

You know, like the one they had in the original WTC?

Much the same as what's happening now. Some folk will shriek, it;ll go in, and we'll get to hear about the creeping theocratic tendencies of the conservative movement, as demonstrated by the failure to stop the Park51 project, etc., and the dark and foreboding tone set by Bloomberg for the city.

555 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:04:30am

re: #550 Charles

I wonder what will happen when Muslims try to open a prayer center in the new World Trade Center?

You know, like the one they had in the original WTC?

"How DARE they!? Don't they realize how insensitive that is?! Don't they realize that fellow Muslims killed all those people on 9/11?! That they'd open this center is just proof that they're looking for a symbolic victory over America!!!1111111"

556 RadicalModerate  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:05:23am

This is some Grade A insanity going around.

Start with Fundamentalist Christian organizations, throw in some Andrew Brietbart/Pam Geller/Geert Wilders brand race-baiting, mix in with Alex Jones/Glenn Beck/John Birch Society conspiracy theorizing and stir and heat thoroughly.

Weapons-grade stupidity pie: Serves thousands.

557 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:06:13am

re: #546 jaunte

triumphal mosque

Islamic supremacist mosque

What to use when "Ground Zero Mosque" just isn't setting them on fire any more.

558 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:06:25am

re: #547 davesax

Walter, I'm not sure what "questions" you want me to answer.

The one where you acccuse me of being a bigot, or the one saying I would approve of slavery?

;-)

When in doubt... play stupid.

559 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:06:41am

re: #552 Charles

That's what I thought. You really don't care what he's written or what he's done. You just want to hate him. Facts be damned.

That's me, boss; that's me to a T.

Facts be damned, eh? Hamas, what's his stance. How are our policies accessories to the attacks on 9/11? Where the Hell is he getting the money for the project?

Bigot that I am, I'm just a bit troubled by this stuff.

Still, I'd refer you to my opening post this thread for the real concrete evidence of the depths of my bigotry:
re: #381 Guanxi88

Hello, all.

As always, a straw man - the question wasn't whether Muslims could practice their religion, but whether one particular mosque could or should be built on one particular bit of real estate. Still, it's always easiest to oversimplify the matter.

I'm agnostic on the thing - it's a local matter, despite the funding coming in from sources unknown; it's up to the local authorities whether to approve construction, and they seem perfectly fine with it.

560 jaunte  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:06:51am

re: #557 wrenchwench

Plus it's 15-story-mega.
Can't forget the height angle.

561 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:06:59am

re: #551 Stanley Sea

You know which one, your comment on the Pentagon Mosque.

There's a mosque built in the shape of a pentagon!?!?!

COOL

I think I'll propose to my archdiocese that the next church we build be in the shape of a Blivet

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

//

562 SeafoodGumbo  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:07:27am

re: #510 Charles

When did it become fashionable to equate a school that undoubtedly has extremist associations to a project by an Imam with a long history of promoting tolerance?

Go ahead, keep trying to throw my past posts in my face, and just ignore the fact that I never tried to equate all Muslims with extremists. I argued against this kind of crap from the start.

And go ahead and keep demonizing decent people. See where that gets you.

Adbul Rauf isn't in warm-fuzzy-land when he speaks to the Arab press.

563 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:07:36am

Charles:

I think it's fair to say your POV has become more nuanced in the last few years, after you saw what happened to the anti-Jihad movement.

There were statements you made, where you came flat out against a Palestinian State, supported Serge Trikovick, among other things, etc, that were to the right of how I felt (and baffled me), and that today would definitely be beyond the pale here at LGF.

564 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:09:18am

re: #563 davesax

Charles:

I think it's fair to say your POV has become more nuanced in the last few years, after you saw what happened to the anti-Jihad movement.

There were statements you made, where you came flat out against a Palestinian State, supported Serge Trikovick, among other things, etc, that were to the right of how I felt (and baffled me), and that today would definitely be beyond the pale here at LGF.

You mean someone changed their opinion over the course of time? Outrageous!

565 Soap_Man  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:10:01am

re: #564 tnguitarist

You mean someone changed their opinion over the course of time? Outrageous!

Fucking flip-flopper!

/

566 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:10:38am

re: #2 Stonemason

I don't agree with much President Obama reads (yeah, just had to), but that was well done.

It is nice to see that some on the left

I guess recognizing the emotions is not quite the same as recogizing valid concerns, but at least the President didn't stand at that dinner and say:

Everyone who opposes the Park 51 project is a bigot, or a tool of bigots.

It's perfectly reasonable for people to be unhappy that this project is proposed and is likely to go through. Those behind the project, if they wanted to take feelings into account, could do so by swapping the current site for another in lower Manhattan that didn't push so many buttons.

But that is their business. The law cannot take such feelings into account. If the Park51 people are determined to go ahead with their original plan, then out of respect for our own law and founding principles, we must recognize that they have every right to do so.

Obama gave a good speech for the most part. But---

Those three members of the military who now rest at Arlington are one side of a coin that has another side. There's a dozen and more who fell at the hands of Major Hasan. Since the speech in question was not the time to bring that up, and since mention of the other brings it up like it or not, {it's hard to think about just one side of the coin}, best to just not say anything at all about Muslims and their military service.

567 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:11:30am

re: #559 Guanxi88

That's me, boss; that's me to a T.

Facts be damned, eh? Hamas, what's his stance. How are our policies accessories to the attacks on 9/11? Where the Hell is he getting the money for the project?

Bigot that I am, I'm just a bit troubled by this stuff.

Still, I'd refer you to my opening post this thread for the real concrete evidence of the depths of my bigotry:
re: #381 Guanxi88

If you're interested in what Imam Rauf has written and what he's done, it's a matter of public record. You just told us you really don't care, and brushed off all of his words as lies.

To me, that looks like prejudice. Go ahead and try to argue that it isn't.

568 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:11:34am

re: #562 SeafoodGumbo

#276

question to be answered

IGNORE is NOT your friend

569 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:11:36am

re: #552 Charles

That's what I thought. You really don't care what he's written or what he's done. You just want to hate him. Facts be damned.

Oh, and a masterful distortion of what I wrote; Brietbart could use you.

570 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:13:00am

re: #569 Guanxi88

Dude, WTF?

571 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:13:00am

re: #567 Charles

If you're interested in what Imam Rauf has written and what he's done, it's a matter of public record. You just told you really don't care, and brushed off all of his words as lies.

To me, that looks like prejudice. Go ahead and try to argue that it isn't.

He has written material intended to encourage a "dialogue" that is simply a far better, more nuanced version, of traditional proselytizing; don't make it anything more than what it is - an attempt to win converts.

572 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:13:19am

re: #566 lostlakehiker

I disagree with your last paragraph.

573 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:13:49am

re: #570 Varek Raith

Dude, WTF?

Eh, feeling froggy, perhaps. Resent deeply getting tarred with the brush of bigotry.

574 webevintage  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:14:11am

Lovely speech.
Thank God it was President Obama making it and not President Palin.

I don't really give a shit anymore what wingnuts and bigots eho pretend they are not bigots before they are sad someones feelings are getting hurt (Jesus, man up America) and folks who only like the parts of the Constitution that protects them, but I am sick to death of Dems and liberals who are go on and on about how much the President sucks.
I read Greenwald this morning and some of the comments there are as moronic as what the folks on Hot Air say.
They really did think they would get that pony.

575 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:14:32am

re: #563 davesax

Charles:

I think it's fair to say your POV has become more nuanced in the last few years, after you saw what happened to the anti-Jihad movement.

There were statements you made, where you came flat out against a Palestinian State, supported Serge Trikovick, among other things, etc, that were to the right of how I felt (and baffled me), and that today would definitely be beyond the pale here at LGF.

I'd say that Charles, like a lot of ol' timers who still draw breath here, came to realize that the "imminent Islamic invasion" was neither imminent nor an invasion. And that every Muslim in America is not a jihadi waiting for a signal to haul out their bomb vest and become a "martyr." Does that mean that the threat doesn't exist? Hardly, but it also means that we can't go around expecting a jihadi to jump out of the shadows at any second. It was the sort of reactionary, single-minded response to past attacks that men like OBL use to prove that the West is against Islam, wishes to see it destroyed, and so finds plenty of willing recruits.

576 swamprat  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:14:46am

re: #535 SeafoodGumbo

Your blog has noted in the past that 85% of mosques in this country are funded by the Saudis and the Ground Zero mosque is not divulging where their funds are coming from, but it's wrong to have a problem with that?

You think that the Saudis are Satan? They are self-serving assholes, sure, but that only makes them eligible to be politicians. They fund a lot of stuff, it's a friggin' country. Don't like it? Well stand in line. Our likes and dislike are not legal arguments.
Some states have sunshine laws. This is why. Instead of trying unAmerican attacks upon legal rights, why doesn't somebody try to enact legislation, that would force all that build, to reveal their funding? We could hose the mafia, terrorists, and criminals of many sorts. And it would be LEGAL!

You have a right to feel as you do. Hell, it might even be a good thing. But it is not a Constitutional thing.

577 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:14:47am

re: #571 Guanxi88

He has written material intended to encourage a "dialogue" that is simply a far better, more nuanced version, of traditional proselytizing; don't make it anything more than what it is - an attempt to win converts.

Taqiyyah!

578 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:15:34am

re: #564 tnguitarist

Um, it wasn't a judgment.

I was stating it because Charles said he was always like this. He wasn't. And I'm not putting him down for it.

579 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:16:21am

re: #577 wrenchwench

Taqiyyah!

No - taqqiyah is practiced by shiites in the face of sunni repression. Rauf there is using what's known as dialectical apologetics - it has a long and distinguished history in the world of religion.

580 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:16:27am

re: #563 davesax

Charles:

I think it's fair to say your POV has become more nuanced in the last few years, after you saw what happened to the anti-Jihad movement.

There were statements you made, where you came flat out against a Palestinian State, supported Serge Trikovick, among other things, etc, that were to the right of how I felt (and baffled me), and that today would definitely be beyond the pale here at LGF.

Oh, bullshit. Just because I posted links to a few articles by Trifkovic doesn't mean I "supported" him.

Guess what? In the days after 9/11 I was trying to learn about radical Islam. I wasn't already an expert. Every link I posted was not a reflection of my personal opinions.

And some of the people who came right out to the forefront after 9/11 turned out to be raving bigots, who hid it pretty well for a while.

I guess this is going to be the new argument tactic -- dig up my old posts and throw them at me. How fucking tedious.

581 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:16:35am

re: #566 lostlakehiker

best to just not say anything at all about Muslims and their military service.

Bigot.

582 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:17:09am

re: #571 Guanxi88

He has written material intended to encourage a "dialogue" that is simply a far better, more nuanced version, of traditional proselytizing; don't make it anything more than what it is - an attempt to win converts.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. You could not care less what he's actually written. I doubt you've even read a single article by Imam Rauf.

583 webevintage  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:17:13am

Let's try this again without the odd stuff...typing sans one fingure sucks.

Lovely speech.
Thank God it was President Obama making it and not President Palin.

I don't really give a shit anymore what wingnuts and the bigots who pretend they are not bigots because they are sad someone's feelings are getting hurt (Jesus, man up America) and the folks who only like the parts of the Constitution that protects them think or do, but I am sick to death of Dems and liberals who go on and on about how much the President sucks.
I read Greenwald this morning and some of the comments there are as moronic as what the folks on Hot Air say.
They really did think they would get that pony.

584 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:17:44am

re: #573 Guanxi88

Go get some fucking snuff. Walk right now.

585 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:18:07am

re: #584 Stanley Sea

Go get some fucking snuff. Walk right now.

Way ahead of you, sir - rummaged into my emergency supply.

586 webevintage  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:18:18am

re: #566 lostlakehiker

Those three members of the military who now rest at Arlington are one side of a coin that has another side. There's a dozen and more who fell at the hands of Major Hasan. Since the speech in question was not the time to bring that up, and since mention of the other brings it up like it or not, {it's hard to think about just one side of the coin}, best to just not say anything at all about Muslims and their military service.

bullshit

587 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:18:41am

re: #569 Guanxi88

Oh, and a masterful distortion of what I wrote; Brietbart could use you.

Not smart. I probably don't agree with 50 percent of what most people here post, and probably don't agree with 10 percent of what Charles says, but I don't go so far as to insult the host. I don't suck up to him either, but, I keep away from the insults.

I save them for the trolls and the other side of stupid commenters.

588 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:19:06am

re: #582 Charles

That's exactly what I'm talking about. You could not care less what he's actually written. I doubt you've even read a single article by Imam Rauf.

And I'm not likely to be convinced by anything he's written, blinded by my bigotry as I am, am I?

You swing the bigot club a bit too freely.

589 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:19:28am

re: #588 Guanxi88

And I'm not likely to be convinced by anything he's written, blinded by my bigotry as I am, am I?

You swing the bigot club a bit too freely.

Have you read any articles by Imam Rauf?

590 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:19:45am

Julia Child making omelette

591 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:20:08am

re: #587 Walter L. Newton

Not smart. I probably don't agree with 50 percent of what most people here post, and probably don't agree with 10 percent of what Charles says, but I don't go so far as to insult the host. I don't suck up to him either, but, I keep away from the insults.

I save them for the trolls and the other side of stupid commenters.

ditto

592 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:20:49am
593 bratwurst  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:20:57am

I don't know about you, but I never get tired of the old "I can't POSSIBLY be a bigot if I'm telling the truth!" excuse.

594 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:21:10am

re: #518 Charles

Probably the 200th time this article has been posted. And for the 200th time, I'll point out that all the inflammatory statements in that article are NOT DIRECT QUOTES. They're the words of the reporter.

On what grounds do you say that? The quote is given, as a quote, by wikipedia.

wikipedia article on Fesial Rauf.

If indeed it were settled fact that Rauf never said it, how would the quote in Wikipedia stand there, unchallenged? Here is part of the text of the wikipedia article:

Some U.S. politicians have voiced concerns about his views.[8][9][10][11]

In 2004, he said the U.S. and the West must acknowledge the harm they have done to Muslims before terrorism can end. Speaking at his New York mosque, Abdul Rauf said:

QUOTE The Islamic method of waging war is not to kill innocent civilians. But it was Christians in World War II who bombed civilians in Dresden and Hiroshima, neither of which were military targets. END QUOTE

He also said that there could be little progress in Western-Islamic relations until the U.S. acknowledged backing Middle East dictators, and the U.S. President gave an "American Culpa" speech to the Muslim world, because there are "an endless supply of angry young Muslim rebels prepared to die for their cause and there [is] no sign of the attacks ending unless there [is] a fundamental change in the world".[12]

Columnist Jonathan Rauch wrote that Abdul Rauf gave a "mixed, muddled, muttered" message after 9/11.[13] Nineteen days after the attacks, he told CBS’s 60 Minutes that fanaticism and terrorism have no place in Islam. Rauch said that the message was mixed, however, because when then asked if the U.S. deserved the attacks, Rauf answered: "I wouldn’t say that the United States deserved what happened. But the United States’ policies were an accessory to the crime that happened."[14][15][3] Rauch observed: "Note the verb. The crime "happened"?"[13]

595 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:21:28am

re: #588 Guanxi88

take a deep breath and step away for awhile

Come back and disagree if you want too, but don't be disagreeable

I say this as a friend

596 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:21:45am

Pathetic.

If you keep posting links to bigoted creep websites, I'll just block your account. I'm finished arguing about this.

597 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:21:54am

re: #589 Charles

Have you read any articles by Imam Rauf?

I've dug up the text - through the interwebs @ Amazon, of some sections of his "What's Right with islam", read a transcript of his remarks on the occasion of the announcement of the project, and, in truth, that's it.

He's a religious leader of a proselytizing religious community - he proselytizes. he does not appear to be a bomb-thrower, and has condemned violence; this makes him a great fellow, I suppose.

The State Dept vouches for him, so he's Jake with me.

598 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:21:55am

re: #590 Killgore Trout

Julia Child making omelette

[Video]

Upding for randomness.

599 cliffster  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:22:45am

re: #591 sattv4u2

ditto

Tritto. I like you, Guanxi

600 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:23:18am

re: #594 lostlakehiker

Excuse me, but why is this supposed to matter?

Are those opinions really so outrageous that we should take away his constitutional rights? Seems to me his opinions are almost exactly the same as Ron Paul and many tea partiers.

601 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:23:22am

re: #598 tnguitarist

Upding for randomness.

In KT's mind, it's not random!!

He'll be able to tie it in somehow,, and somewhere along that line Kevin Bacon will be involved too!!

//

602 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:23:30am

re: #580 Charles

I guess this is going to be the new argument tactic -- dig up my old posts and throw them at me. How fucking tedious.


I noticed some of that yesterday.

603 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:23:32am

Rupert/The Post strikes again:

Image: tujt.jpg

604 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:23:44am

re: #579 Guanxi88

No - taqqiyah is practiced by shiites in the face of sunni repression. Rauf there is using what's known as dialectical apologetics - it has a long and distinguished history in the world of religion.

Damn! Spelling out the difference between taqqiyah and proselytizing earns kicks in the shins?

Who knew that nuance was so regressive?

605 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:24:30am

re: #600 Charles

Excuse me, but why is this supposed to matter?

Are those opinions really so outrageous that we should take away his constitutional rights? Seems to me his opinions are almost exactly the same as Ron Paul and many tea partiers.

We're to run around in circles in panic about the Tea Party, aren't we?

606 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:24:46am

re: #580 Charles

Charles, what's gotten into you?

I wasn't even arguing with you. I'm not throwing anything at you.

I simply said there were statements you made that were to the right of where I would have gone, especially your opposition to a Palestinan state, that I don't think would sit well here, now.

Man, I've met you, talked shop with you, given you money, still support you most of the time (never agreed with you 100% of the time, anyway), and this your thing?

Just to be pissed off?

I'm sorry if you felt I oversimplyfied your views on this Corodoba project earlier, but man, you're really acting like a jerk.

607 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:24:53am

re: #597 Guanxi88

I've dug up the text - through the interwebs @ Amazon, of some sections of his "What's Right with islam", read a transcript of his remarks on the occasion of the announcement of the project, and, in truth, that's it.

That's what I thought.

Look up the definition of "prejudice."

608 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:25:23am

re: #601 sattv4u2

In KT's mind, it's not random!!

He'll be able to tie it in somehow,, and somewhere along that line Kevin Bacon will be involved too!!

//

It's breakfast time here on the left coast. Not random to me.

609 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:25:44am

re: #608 Killgore Trout

It's breakfast time here on the left coast. Not random to me.

SEE!!!

:)

//

610 RadicalModerate  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:26:00am

re: #596 Charles

Instead of firing up the troll grill, maybe Creole is on the menu today?

611 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:26:44am

re: #610 RadicalModerate

Instead of firing up the troll grill, maybe Creole is on the menu today?

Troll stew?

612 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:27:09am

re: #606 davesax

Wow. After the insults you've been tossing at me, that takes some nerve.

613 Joo-LiZ  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:27:32am

That was a pretty sound speech.

614 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:27:51am

re: #607 Charles

That's what I thought.

Look up the definition of "prejudice."

Altogether uncalled for. I have not dismissed his rights to practice his faith, have said the mosque or cultural center's construction is a local matter, and the locals seem fine with, and have, further, in no wise engaged in conduct or speech (is it speech if you type it?) that suggests anything other than he's not a bad guy based on what I can tell about him.

I am so bigoted to point out that he engages in proselytizing for Islam - as required by his faith - in a very sophisticated and intellectually engaging manner, consistent with a fine and long tradition of such practices going back to Ibn Rushd and al-Farabi.

And I'm prejudiced, am I?

615 Soap_Man  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:28:25am

re: #596 Charles

Pathetic.

If you keep posting links to bigoted creep websites, I'll just block your account. I'm finished arguing about this.

Not to mention how out-of-context they took those quotes. Here is most of article: I shall bold the quote they found so offensive. Can't post the last two paragraphs. Too long I guess.

After our proposal to build a community and cultural center two blocks from the World Trade Center site, I was pleased and gratified by the outpouring of support from city officials and a wide range of people who understand our mission.

My colleagues and I are the anti-terrorists. We are the people who want to embolden the vast majority of Muslims who hate terrorism to stand up to the radical rhetoric. Our purpose is to interweave America's Muslim population into the mainstream society.

People who are stakeholders in society, who believe they are welcomed as equal partners, do not want to destroy it. They want to build it. And there's no better demonstration of our desire to build than the construction of this center. It will help revive lower Manhattan.

The project has been mischaracterized, so I want to explain clearly what it would be. Our planned 13-story community center is intended for Park Place between Church St. and West Broadway. It is not a mosque, although it will include a space for Muslim prayer services. It will have a swimming pool, basketball court, meeting rooms, a 500-seat auditorium, banquet facilities and many other things a community needs to be healthy. The center will offer theatrical programming, art exhibitions and cooking classes. These are amenities missing now from this part of the city.

And, yes, the center will have a public memorial to the victims of 9/11 as well as a meditation room where all will be welcome for quiet reflection. The center will support soul and body.

The center will be open to all regardless of religion. Like a YMCA, the 92nd St. Y or the Jewish Community Center uptown, it will admit everyone. It will be a center for all New Yorkers.

What grieves me most is the false reporting that leads some families of 9/11 victims to think this project somehow is designed by Muslims to gloat over the attack.

That could not be further from the truth.

My heart goes out to all of the victims of 9/11. They are all heroes. But I urge you to include in your sympathy the family of Mohammad Salman Hamdani. Born in Pakistan, his parents brought him to New York as a small child. He wanted nothing more than to be an American, and he was.

A high school football player in Bayside, Queens, he graduated from Queens College. When he could not get into an American medical school, he became a part-time ambulance driver. He disappeared on 9/11; his body was found months later in the wreckage of the north tower. This 23-year-old Muslim died trying to save his fellow New Yorkers.

Religion did not separate the victims on that terrible day. Whether Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists or any other faith, all of these people made up the fabric of New York. They all died together.

Freedom of religion is something we hold dear. It is the core of what America is all about, and it is what people worldwide respect about our country. The Koran itself says compulsion in religion is wrong.

American Muslims want to be both good Americans and good Muslims. They can be the best assets the United States has in combatting radicalism.

They know that many American values - freedom of religion, human dignity and opportunity for prosperity - are also Muslim values.

We believe that people of good faith can use the common core of their religions to find solutions to problems that will let them live together.

616 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:28:40am

re: #600 Charles

Excuse me, but why is this supposed to matter?

Are those opinions really so outrageous that we should take away his constitutional rights? Seems to me his opinions are almost exactly the same as Ron Paul and many tea partiers.

He can go and build his center. I won't try to stop it and I don't think there are any valid legal objections.

But does it simply not matter whether the quote is a quote or isn't? We're on the topic of a question of fact.

617 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:28:44am

It seems that the biggest bitching point about Rauf is that he says, for there to be a dialogue, that the US first has to admit we've done things in the past that brought events like 9/11 upon us. 9 years ago, I'd have told any person suggesting that to get stuffed. Now...I'm not so sure. I know I'm practically begging to be down-dinged for this, but perhaps it's time we as Americans came clean with the reality that we put a lot of shit in motion in the Middle East that has come back to bite us in the ass. There's no shame in admitting mistakes, only in continuing to make them.

618 SeafoodGumbo  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:28:59am

re: #596 Charles

Pathetic.

If you keep posting links to bigoted creep websites, I'll just block your account. I'm finished arguing about this.

That's why I posted a link to a google search for the article, because I thought you didn't want direct links to sites you don't like.

Anyway, I'm on Charles Krauthammer and VDH's side on this, and not on CAIR's side.

619 SeafoodGumbo  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:30:07am

Are links to VDH allowed? There's a piece he did on the Ground Zero mosque that I want to post. He has a very good take on the issue.

620 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:30:52am

Too much drama for a lazy Saturday afternoon. Let's go to the shop and build some guitars. Later.

621 Soap_Man  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:30:57am

re: #618 SeafoodGumbo

That's why I posted a link to a google search for the article, because I thought you didn't want direct links to sites you don't like.

Anyway, I'm on Charles Krauthammer and VDH's side on this, and not on CAIR's side.

What a bullshit thing to say. That's like someone saying during the election: "I'm voting for Obama, cause I don't want to be on the same side as the KKK and you McCain supporters."

(Not saying CAIR is like the KKK. Just saying its bullshit to say "well, there are some unsavory people on your side, so you must be wrong.)

Seriously, that's like grade-school level debate.

622 webevintage  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:32:23am

re: #617 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

There's no shame in admitting mistakes, only in continuing to make them.

American EXCEPTIONALISIM!!!
Never admit mistakes!!!
You are just like Obambi apologizing for American...why do you and him hate America!!111!!!
TERROR BABIES!!!
/

623 Soap_Man  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:32:34am

re: #620 tnguitarist

Too much drama for a lazy Saturday afternoon. Let's go to the shop and build some guitars. Later.

Agreed. I'm going to go play some Starcraft.

624 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:33:23am

re: #612 Charles

Well, I've been critical of you, but I never meant to insult you.

And if it came across that way, through these boards, I do apologize.

And I mean that sincerely.

625 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:33:26am

re: #621 Soap_Man

What a bullshit thing to say. That's like someone saying during the election: "I'm voting for Obama, cause I don't want to be on the same side as the KKK and you McCain supporters."

(Not saying CAIR is like the KKK. Just saying its bullshit to say "well, there are some unsavory people on your side, so you must be wrong.)

Seriously, that's like grade-school level debate.

I've been at odds with Seafood this entire thread (he/she STILL hasn't answered my #276) but I don't see how pointing out respected people I agree with and people I don't agree with as "bullshit"

626 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:33:47am

re: #586 webevintage

bullshit

OK Sorry. Major Hasan didn't do it. Somebody else did. Or it warn't no big thang. Whatever.

Down here it was kind of, like, news.

627 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:34:04am

re: #616 lostlakehiker

He can go and build his center. I won't try to stop it and I don't think there are any valid legal objections.

But does it simply not matter whether the quote is a quote or isn't? We're on the topic of a question of fact.

The problem with the Australian article is that it's deliberately written to be inflammatory, and there is only one direct quote in the piece.

I'm not denying that he said those things. He did.

Ron Paul said all that and worse. And he's a star in the GOP.

628 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:34:32am

re: #612 Charles

But, you did misinterpret my last post.

It wasn't meant as a criticism, or insult, at all.

629 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:34:43am

Great googly moogly.

630 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:36:29am

re: #615 Soap_Man

Thanks for pointing that out. I won't even bother reading the garbage posted at right wing blogs about this issue any more -- they just blatantly lie.

631 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:36:30am

re: #627 Charles

The problem with the Australian article is that it's deliberately written to be inflammatory, and there is only one direct quote in the piece.

I'm not denying that he said those things. He did.

Ron Paul said all that and worse. And he's a star in the GOP.

Tuo quoque, isn't that the name for that?

632 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:36:34am

re: #628 davesax

But, you did misinterpret my last post.

It wasn't meant as a criticism, or insult, at all.

Is this Dave S?

633 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:36:43am

re: #629 Varek Raith

Great googly moogly.

THE best commercial EVER!

634 RadicalModerate  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:37:13am

re: #623 Soap_Man

Agreed. I'm going to go play some Starcraft.

Nothing says "therapeutic and relaxing activity" like a near-genocidal attack on a zergling rush.

/kekeke

635 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:38:00am

re: #631 Guanxi88

redux

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

636 webevintage  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:38:08am

I'm just a bit disgusted with my fellow Americans today.
Religious freedom is all well and good it seems but only for me and mine and only, only if it does not hurt anyone's feelings and only if you tell us everything about everyone who might be paying for your building and only if you let us read/hear everything you have ever said about anything and these conditions ONLY apply if you happen to be Muslim.

I am proud that the President was willing to step into what is becoming a national embarrassment to make a statement that is sure to piss off many folks before an election. It takes balls to stand up to the mob when it gets going.

637 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:38:52am

re: #614 Guanxi88

Altogether uncalled for. I have not dismissed his rights to practice his faith, have said the mosque or cultural center's construction is a local matter, and the locals seem fine with, and have, further, in no wise engaged in conduct or speech (is it speech if you type it?) that suggests anything other than he's not a bad guy based on what I can tell about him.

I am so bigoted to point out that he engages in proselytizing for Islam - as required by his faith - in a very sophisticated and intellectually engaging manner, consistent with a fine and long tradition of such practices going back to Ibn Rushd and al-Farabi.

And I'm prejudiced, am I?

Yes, very obviously you are prejudiced. Your own comments show it. You dismiss everything Imam Rauf has written as either lies or proselytizing -- for no objective reason whatsoever.

Again, read the definition of "prejudice." This is it.

638 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:38:53am

re: #635 sattv4u2

redux

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

You're right. Off to smoke a bowl of Carter Hall.

639 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:39:18am

Jesus cursing out that fig tree really offends me.
His insensitivity makes me just wanna ban Churches near trees.
///

640 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:39:32am

re: #632 Walter L. Newton

?

641 AntonSirius  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:40:24am

re: #448 Walter L. Newton

No. You're right. It's a major issue and we certainly just missed biting the bullet on that one. And speaking of parody songs and satire, I hope the hell none of those satirical little trickers from Saturday Night Live even run for office.

My goodness, some of the things they sang and said over the years, well, my gosh, if one of those jolly little life of the party ever became a senator... the shit could hit the fan.

Franken.

Thanks for clearing up who you were referring to. For a second there, I was worried Melanie Hutsell had been elected to Congress.

642 webevintage  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:40:59am

re: #626 lostlakehiker

OK Sorry. Major Hasan didn't do it. Somebody else did. Or it warn't no big thang. Whatever.

Down here it was kind of, like, news.

What you said was bullshit because by bringing him up you denigrated the memory of men who died serving this country just so you could bitch about the Presidents speech.
That's why I called it bullshit.

643 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:42:13am

prejudice |ˈprejədəs|
noun

1 -- preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience : English prejudice against foreigners | anti-Jewish prejudices.
• dislike, hostility, or unjust behavior formed on such a basis : accusations of racial prejudice.

644 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:42:48am
A growing perception of the United States as hostile to the Muslim world—and of the Muslim world as hostile to the United States—has hobbled the effectiveness of American Muslims as mediators between Islam and the West. And yet those mutual suspicions have made communication between them more crucial than ever. And there's another challenge, closer to home. We need to build our institutions, empower women and youth, strengthen our identity as American Muslims and create leaders for the generations to come. We need to identify the fundamental principles of our faith and apply them no matter how circumstances may change. "Raise your children for times different from your own," said Imam Ali, the prophet's cousin.

This means we must examine the past as we move toward the future. A worldwide Islamic renewal will succeed only if it maintains continuity with our history and promotes diversity in many forms. As the prophet said, "Differences of opinion in my community are a blessing." This is classical Islam, embracing freedom of interpretation within its basic creed and appreciating the diversity of all peoples and nations. Only when the world's Muslims—perhaps inspired by their American brothers and sisters—rediscover the value of pluralism will the umma truly fulfill the prophet's prediction of a western Islamic revival.

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and Daisy Khan

645 Ghost of Insanity  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:44:51am

Should we move Home sapiens to the Pan genus, or should we include those poo flinging Pans in the Homo genus?

646 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:45:08am

A quote from Imam Feisal Rauf -- from the interview with Aaron Klein of World Nut Daily in which Klein tried to play gotcha with that Hamas question:

"I am a supporter of the state of Israel."

But of course, he must be lying.

647 webevintage  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:45:17am

Mark Williams is my favorite Teaparty Spokesman:
Mark Williams, a controversial tea party political movement supporter, said the center would be used for "terrorists to worship their monkey god."

Really?
I love monkeys. I would join a religion that worships monkey gods...except Williams is an idiot racist and yeah, no monkey god in Islam.

via Balloon Juice

648 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:46:45am

re: #647 webevintage

Mark Williams is my favorite Teaparty Spokesman:
Mark Williams, a controversial tea party political movement supporter, said the center would be used for "terrorists to worship their monkey god."

Really?
I love monkeys. I would join a religion that worships monkey gods...except Williams is an idiot racist and yeah, no monkey god in Islam.

via Balloon Juice

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

649 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:46:59am

re: #646 Charles

A quote from Imam Feisal Rauf -- from the interview with Aaron Klein of World Nut Daily in which Klein tried to play gotcha with that Hamas question:

"I am a supporter of the state of Israel."

But of course, he must be lying.

WND a source?

650 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:49:12am

re: #644 goddamnedfrank

They posted the audio recording. That quote is from the recording -- World Net Daily did not even mention it in their article about the interview.

651 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:49:52am

re: #649 Walter L. Newton

WND a source?

Perhaps the point is that the source is the same one from which the mosque opponents quote--but not that part. They like the part where Klein says he wouldn't condemn Hamas.

652 webevintage  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:49:52am

re: #648 Charles

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

wow...I missed that one.

653 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:51:29am
654 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:51:50am

An optical illusion

If you look real REAL close, you can see the 10 yard line!!

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

((trying to lighten the mood here ))!!

655 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:51:57am

re: #651 wrenchwench

Perhaps the point is that the source is the same one from which the mosque opponents quote--but not that part. They like the part where Klein says he wouldn't condemn Hamas.

Exactly. Fox News constantly runs the out of context quotes from this interview too, and ignores everything positive Rauf says on the recording -- and there's quite a bit of positive stuff too.

656 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:52:59am

re: #653 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hey! I know this guy!

you only know one guy !?!?!?

657 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:53:37am

re: #653 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hey! I know this guy!

Is that a star and crescent in his logo?!?

/

658 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:55:02am

re: #651 wrenchwench

Perhaps the point is that the source is the same one from which the mosque opponents quote--but not that part. They like the part where Klein says he wouldn't condemn Hamas.

I'm sorry... I thought Charles was saying Klein writes for WND. I don't ever go to that site, I didn't know.

659 webevintage  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:55:22am

re: #653 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hey! I know this guy!

WTH is a "libertarian republican"?

660 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:55:47am

re: #658 Walter L. Newton

I'm sorry... I thought Charles was saying Klein writes for WND. I don't ever go to that site, I didn't know.

He does write for WND.

661 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:56:06am

re: #627 Charles

The problem with the Australian article is that it's deliberately written to be inflammatory, and there is only one direct quote in the piece.

I'm not denying that he said those things. He did.

Ron Paul said all that and worse. And he's a star in the GOP.

Then we're square. I agree that the Australian article is not even-handed. Ron Paul has said a lot of things he should not have said---and every time he opens his mouth, he adds to the score.

Quibbler that I am, I'll dissent from the last point. Ron Paul cratered in the 2008 Republican primary. His team, his fans, he himself [take your pick] was good at gaming the online polls, but when it came time for real world voting, he didn't have much support. I'll predict that he gets nowhere in the 2012 primary.

662 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:56:36am

re: #657 wrenchwench

Is that a star and crescent in his logo?!?

/

Eleventy!!1!!1!!

663 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:56:53am

I don't doubt that Rauf said that.

It's nice to hear.

664 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:56:55am

re: #659 webevintage

That guy.

665 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:57:08am

re: #658 Walter L. Newton

I'm sorry... I thought Charles was saying Klein writes for WND. I don't ever go to that site, I didn't know.

Wait a second... ok... I looked him up... he does write for WND... "head of the Jerusalem bureau for WorldNetDaily (WND)" [Link: en.wikipedia.org...] ok...

Ok... I'm confused now... why is he a valid source?

666 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:58:37am

re: #647 webevintage

Mark Williams is my favorite Teaparty Spokesman:
Mark Williams, a controversial tea party political movement supporter, said the center would be used for "terrorists to worship their monkey god."

Really?
I love monkeys. I would join a religion that worships monkey gods...except Williams is an idiot racist and yeah, no monkey god in Islam.

via Balloon Juice

Wow. Ignorance squared. Somebody wanting to make fun of Mark could have a field day aping him.

667 Ghost of Insanity  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:58:48am

re: #665 Walter L. Newton

Wait a second... ok... I looked him up... he does write for WND... "head of the Jerusalem bureau for WorldNetDaily (WND)" [Link: en.wikipedia.org...] ok...

Ok... I'm confused now... why is he a valid source?

He isn't. The recording of the interview, as long as it doesn't show evidence of tampering, can be.

668 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 10:59:09am

re: #665 Walter L. Newton

He's a valid source because WND is so right wing that if Klein printed that Rauf said it, it's true because it goes against their editorial line.

669 RadicalModerate  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:01:14am

re: #653 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Good lord. You've hit the motherlode of nuttery there.

On the main page:

Ayn Rand as center image on header.
First story, links to white supremacist Robert Stacy McCain.
Third Story: TERROR BABIES!!1
A bit further down, we have Carly Fiorina, Michelle Bachmann, Kathy Glass, and last, but not least, RAND PAUL

670 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:01:18am

re: #659 webevintage

WTH is a "libertarian republican"?

A Libertarian who ain't got the balls to run as one, thinks tacking on "Republican" makes him seem like less of a loon.

671 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:03:43am

re: #668 davesax

He's a valid source because WND is so right wing that if Klein printed that Rauf said it, it's true because it goes against their editorial line.

Klein didn't print it. The WND article doesn't even mention it.

I know about it because I listened to the audio recording.

Fox News also runs portions of that audio constantly, but never plays any of the positive statements.

These people are lying to you about Imam Rauf.

672 davesax  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:06:13am

OH, well, I was confused.

I don't pay attention to those guys, Charles.

Ever.

I actually believe you, and I do believe that Rauf said it.

And again, that's a really cool thing to hear.

673 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:06:30am

re: #650 Charles

They posted the audio recording. That quote is from the recording -- World Net Daily did not even mention it in their article about the interview.

I assume you meant this response for Walter's #649?
re: #665 Walter L. Newton

Wait a second... ok... I looked him up... he does write for WND... "head of the Jerusalem bureau for WorldNetDaily (WND)" [Link: en.wikipedia.org...] ok...

Ok... I'm confused now... why is he a valid source?

He's not, however the posted full audio recording containing the exculpatory quotations that he deliberately avoided, is.

674 webevintage  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:06:51am

re: #670 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

A Libertarian who ain't got the balls to run as one, thinks tacking on "Republican" makes him seem like less of a loon.

Like Rand Paul?

675 swamprat  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:07:38am

re: #646 Charles

A quote from Imam Feisal Rauf -- from the interview with Aaron Klein of World Nut Daily in which Klein tried to play gotcha with that Hamas question:

"I am a supporter of the state of Israel."

But of course, he must be lying.

Nice, but you are getting drawn into a discussion about the quality of Rauf's chacter, and that should not be the point. Quite the opposite, in fact. In America, assholes and fools are regularly granted permits, and that is as it should be.

676 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:09:17am

re: #671 Charles

I admire your patience and persistence. I have more luck reasoning with my 6 year old.

"Dad, can I have a donut"
"No, honey, it's almost dinner"
"But a donut is food"
"That's true, but it's not nourishment, and dinner is about nourishing your body"
"But it makes me feel good"
"No disagreement there"
"So can I have a donut"
"No, honey, it's almost dinner and we need to make sure we have nourishment before we have crap"
"I guess that makes sense"
"Your a smart kid"
"Smart enough to have a donut?"
"No. It's almost dinner."

677 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:10:34am

re: #674 webevintage

Like Rand Paul?

And his daddy. And the majority of "Tea Party" candidates running this year. They would fit better in the Libertarian or Constitution party ranks, but because they know they have a snowball's chance in hell of winning if they ran as such and the GOP's so desperate to win back a majority that they'll make whatever Faustian deal necessary, they're being running as "Republicans" this year.

678 austin_blue  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:11:04am

Great little speech, there. I love the bit about Thomas Jefferson hosting the first Iftar over 200 years ago.

And this:

"And Muslim Americans serve with honor in our military. At next week’s iftar at the Pentagon, tribute will be paid to three soldiers who gave their lives in Iraq and now rest among the heroes of Arlington National Cemetery."

The Pentagon?!?!?!

Oh, noes! They'll see the Big Board!!

679 swamprat  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:14:19am

In other news, the world is ending.
I know this is true because I just heard NPR's "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me" has a new sponsor:

Pabst's Blue Ribbon Beer.


Anybody got any non-hybid seeds?

680 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:14:20am

re: #678 austin_blue

Great little speech, there. I love the bit about Thomas Jefferson hosting the first Iftar over 200 years ago.

And this:

"And Muslim Americans serve with honor in our military. At next week’s iftar at the Pentagon, tribute will be paid to three soldiers who gave their lives in Iraq and now rest among the heroes of Arlington National Cemetery."

The Pentagon?!?!?!

Oh, noes! They'll see the Big Board!!

There's no fighting in the war room!

681 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:14:30am
682 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:15:15am

re: #680 Guanxi88

There's no fighting in the war room!

Mr. President, We cannot allow a mineshaft gap!

683 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:15:31am

re: #679 swamprat

In other news, the world is ending.
I know this is true because I just heard NPR's "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me" has a new sponsor:

Pabst's Blue Ribbon Beer.

Anybody got any non-hybid seeds?

Managed to save seeds from this year's crop of Orinoco, Lizard Tail, and Perique tobacco. Figure they'll be worth more than any crappy pinto bean seeds, comes the apocalypse.

684 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:16:29am

re: #682 rwdflynavy

Mr. President, We cannot allow a mineshaft gap!

Mr. President, I have a plan...MEIN FUHRER, I CAN WALK!

685 swamprat  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:16:55am

re: #683 Guanxi88

Good enough.

686 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:17:35am

President Merkin Muffley: General Turgidson! When you instituted the human reliability tests, you *assured* me there was *no* possibility of such a thing *ever* occurring!

General "Buck" Turgidson: Well, I, uh, don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up, sir.

687 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:17:59am

re: #683 Guanxi88

Managed to save seeds from this year's crop of Orinoco, Lizard Tail, and Perique tobacco. Figure they'll be worth more than any crappy pinto bean seeds, comes the apocalypse.

Expanding on the theme a bit, I'll say that folk buying food crop seeds in the event of the worst case scenario - whatever that may be - are just setting themselves up to become peasants and serfs, assuming they don't starve to death before their first crop comes in.

Me? I'd suggest anyone entertaining these notions learn to grow and process tobacco, and brush up on their fermenting and moonshining skills. That's the kinda stuff that'll make you a rich man when the wheels fall off.

688 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:19:21am

re: #685 swamprat

Good enough.

Sad thing is, there's a minimal time-lag of about 3 months, assuming it's cured properly, before tobacco is anything like smokeable. Ideally, you want to age it for about a year or so, but who has time for that?

689 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:19:58am

re: #678 austin_blue

Hey, 78704!

Hot enough for you?

690 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:20:19am

re: #687 Guanxi88

Expanding on the theme a bit, I'll say that folk buying food crop seeds in the event of the worst case scenario - whatever that may be - are just setting themselves up to become peasants and serfs, assuming they don't starve to death before their first crop comes in.

Me? I'd suggest anyone entertaining these notions learn to grow and process tobacco, and brush up on their fermenting and moonshining skills. That's the kinda stuff that'll make you a rich man when the wheels fall off.

Reminds me of this line:

You see in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend. Those with loaded guns, and those who dig. You dig.

691 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:20:50am

re: #687 Guanxi88

I'm investing in FMJ. When the wheels fall of, I'll have your tobacco, your moonshine, your gold, your food, your...
/imkiddingofcourse

692 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:21:03am

re: #675 swamprat

Nice, but you are getting drawn into a discussion about the quality of Rauf's chacter, and that should not be the point. Quite the opposite, in fact. In America, assholes and fools are regularly granted permits, and that is as it should be.

Well, it would be nice if Rauf's character was not part of the issue, but unfortunately he's been subjected to a really nasty smear attack. I've taken the time to watch some of the videos with Rauf in Sudan, and read through a lot of his posts at the Washington Post "On Faith" blog, and his articles at other sites, and while I do take issue with some of his statements about US foreign policy, I just don't see any of them as being very extreme.

And a whole LOT of his opinions represent exactly the kind of moderate Islamic thought we should be encouraging and supporting, not smearing and attacking.

Rauf has been very pro-America, and very pro-democracy in the past. He worked as an overseas emissary to the Islamic world for the Bush administration (who, by the way, would also have done a VERY thorough background check on him).

I wonder if this insanity has colored his view of America now?

693 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:22:06am

re: #690 rwdflynavy

Reminds me of this line:

You see in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend. Those with loaded guns, and those who dig. You dig.

I know that's originally from The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly, but when I read it, the first thing that comes to mind is a quest from Fallout 2.

694 I Am Kreniigh!  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:23:18am

Why do they keep referring to Obama as "Louie" as in "King Hussein Louie"? It's a Jungle Book reference, isn't it. To an orangutan. Am I correct?

695 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:23:51am

re: #691 Slumbering Behemoth

I'm investing in FMJ. When the wheels fall of, I'll have your tobacco, your moonshine, your gold, your food, your...
/imkiddingofcourse

We accept gold, silver, booze, tools, boom-sticks, and ballistic wampum here, so we got you covered.

But these are just my common goods, sir. I can see that you are a man of taste and connoisseurship; because I love you like a brother and see that you appreciate the finer things, let me show you my vintage popskull - nearly two months old, you know.

696 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:24:24am

re: #694 Kreniigh

Why do they keep referring to Obama as "Louie" as in "King Hussein Louie"? It's a Jungle Book reference, isn't it. To an orangutan. Am I correct?

Yep. That's not racist at all, to compare a black man to an orangutan.
//

697 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:25:32am

re: #694 Kreniigh

Why do they keep referring to Obama as "Louie" as in "King Hussein Louie"? It's a Jungle Book reference, isn't it. To an orangutan. Am I correct?

You're right. I never made that connection before. "King Louie" was an orangutan in Jungle Book.

Ugh.

698 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:25:33am

re: #694 Kreniigh

Why do they keep referring to Obama as "Louie" as in "King Hussein Louie"? It's a Jungle Book reference, isn't it. To an orangutan. Am I correct?

I thought it was a corruption of Louis, as in Louis XIV, a reference to the supposed wretched excesses of his "court" - ie, the FLOTUS' trip to Spain.

699 jordash1212  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:27:49am

re: #580 Charles

I guess this is going to be the new argument tactic -- dig up my old posts and throw them at me. How fucking tedious.

Your past can't really escape you on the internet. I suppose that I, just like you, found myself much more vocal about radical Islam the few years after 9/11 until I began to educate myself on the Middle East, religion, politics, culture, etc. I got in many debates with more liberal friends about the residual effects of radical Islam post-9/11.

Islamic radicalism took the world by storm, including its own adherents. That doesn't mean that we can't alter our opinions and beliefs after doing the necessary learning. However, it will mean that what you have put on record will be brought up and dissected. I think it is a desperate attempt by these bigots to discredit you after you have moved on to not just a more nuanced view, but a more enlightened and educated one.

It doesn't make sense to hate the whole religion of the haters. That doesn't make us any better than they are.

700 SpaceJesus  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:29:17am

re: #110 Cato the Elder

Ahem.

You may be the Lord for the Universe and all, but you might want to talk to an old undead Roman before you start ranking law codes.

Just sayin'.

no ranking, just historical pedigree. islamic law has nothing to do with the common law at all. there's simply no connection there.

701 swamprat  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:29:26am

re: #692 Charles

You are probably correct about Rauf's character, but we are supposed to be a nation of laws, not feelings. As to whether the attacks against have changed his view of America, I would say not. He probably saw worse right after 9-11. He must have known he would stir up a hornet's nest when he started. If nothing else, he is not afraid to stand in a whirlwind.

702 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:29:55am

re: #697 Charles

Sung by Louis Prima tho.

Love Louis Prima. Super cool!

Maybe they're calling him "Super Cool!"

703 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:32:39am

i have for a while corresponded with a "true" libertarian on facebook - almost anarchistic - who i thought had an appreciation for both Geography and the Constitution.
It seems he doesn't.

"Ground Zero mosque" - unspecified "legitimate concerns" - comparisions to building a Hitler shrine at Aushwitz...

Yeah, i tried to get into it with him - but he's now brain dead to the constitution and the concept false equivalence.

704 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:33:07am

re: #702 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sung by Louis Prima tho.

Love Louis Prima. Super cool!

Maybe they're calling him "Super Cool!"

You're looking for the frosting in the nut cake. That's nice. I'm afraid you'll be disappointed, though.

705 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:35:10am

re: #704 wrenchwench

You're looking for the frosting in the nut cake. That's nice. I'm afraid you'll be disappointed, though.

He'll find the frosting. It's crunchy peanut butter.

706 webevintage  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:36:16am
Reacting angrily to President Obama’s statement yesterday in support of the Cordoba House community center in lower Manhattan on the basis of religious freedom, blogger and CNN contributor Erick Erickson compared supporting the rights of Muslims to establish mosques in America to supporting “human sacrifice” by the Church of Satan.


[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

what an ass.

707 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:37:13am

re: #706 webevintage

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

what an ass.

That's absurd. La Vey's group doesn't practice human sacrifice.
///

708 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:37:16am

re: #699 jordash1212

Your past can't really escape you on the internet. I suppose that I, just like you, found myself much more vocal about radical Islam the few years after 9/11 until I began to educate myself on the Middle East, religion, politics, culture, etc. I got in many debates with more liberal friends about the residual effects of radical Islam post-9/11.

Islamic radicalism took the world by storm, including its own adherents. That doesn't mean that we can't alter our opinions and beliefs after doing the necessary learning. However, it will mean that what you have put on record will be brought up and dissected. I think it is a desperate attempt by these bigots to discredit you after you have moved on to not just a more nuanced view, but a more enlightened and educated one.

It doesn't make sense to hate the whole religion of the haters. That doesn't make us any better than they are.

I know -- I fully expect this kind of thing. It's just extremely tedious.

Note: a lot of the people I linked to in the early days of LGF turned out to be very bad people. I'm talking about Robert Spencer especially, but he's not the only one. In my personal quest to learn about radical Islam there were sometimes links at LGF to claims and sources that I now know to be very questionable and occasionally outright fraudulent. I didn't claim to be an expert, and I was learning about the subject, who was trustworthy and who was not, just like everyone else.

I don't regret going through this learning process, but it's been years since these people have been able to pull the wool over my eyes.

709 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:38:07am

I dare anyone to tell me this is not super-cool:

Samsung 3D Projection Mapping In Amsterdam

It starts off a little slow. Wait for it, wait for it.

710 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:38:12am

re: #703 wozzablog

i have for a while corresponded with a "true" libertarian on facebook - almost anarchistic - who i thought had an appreciation for both Geography and the Constitution.
It seems he doesn't.

"Ground Zero mosque" - unspecified "legitimate concerns" - comparisions to building a Hitler shrine at Aushwitz...

Yeah, i tried to get into it with him - but he's now brain dead to the constitution and the concept false equivalence.

ah - just checked back to my messages - and it seems the 2nd and 10th are still sacred...i'm not going to push him on what he thinks of the 9th...

711 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:39:02am

re: #706 webevintage

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

what an ass.

Isn't he Mr. Nuance:

There is, in fact, a difference between the exertion of a legal right and supporting the use of a legal right that is offensive.
712 Nimed  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:41:25am

SeafoodGumbo and davesax are giving me urges to build minarets. Somebody should start a Build a Minaret day.

713 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:43:20am

re: #712 Nimed

SeafoodGumbo and davesax are giving me urges to build minarets. Somebody should start a Build a Minaret day.

Later, I'm going to build a banana split, does that count !?!?!

714 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:43:52am

re: #712 Nimed

re: #713 sattv4u2

Later, I'm going to build a banana split, does that count !?!?!

(((and BTW ,, Seafood STILL owes me an answer to my #276!!!)))

715 webevintage  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:44:02am

Well the firebaggers can now screech that Obama did not give them their pony last night:

[Link: www.politico.com...]
(I hate linking to politico)

"I was not commenting and I will not comment on the wisdom of making the decision to put a mosque there. I was commenting very specifically on the right people have that dates back to our founding," he said.
Obama's new stance is logically consistent with his words last night, if a bit less "clarion," as Mike Bloomberg called the first remarks. And there are certainly two possible stances here: Bloomberg's, that the Cordoba project itself represents the best of America; and Obama's, that the freedom of religion is an important American value.
Obama's new remarks, literally speaking, re-open the question of which side he's on.


I don't know Ben, maybe they don't open any question except in the mind of folks who are always looking for something to nitpick and as such should just be ignored.
Sounds to me like he is on the side of the Constitution.

716 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:44:24am

re: #706 webevintage

I've got a really bad feeling that the only way this rage against Muslims will stop is when something horrible happens. Am I being to pessimistic?

717 austin_blue  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:46:12am

re: #692 Charles

Well, it would be nice if Rauf's character was not part of the issue, but unfortunately he's been subjected to a really nasty smear attack. I've taken the time to watch some of the videos with Rauf in Sudan, and read through a lot of his posts at the Washington Post "On Faith" blog, and his articles at other sites, and while I do take issue with some of his statements about US foreign policy, I just don't see any of them as being very extreme.

And a whole LOT of what his opinions represent exactly the kind of moderate Islamic thought we should be encouraging and supporting, not smearing and attacking.

Rauf has been very pro-America, and very pro-democracy in the past. He worked as an overseas emissary to the Islamic world for the Bush administration (who, by the way, would also have done a VERY thorough background check on him).

I wonder if this insanity has colored his view of America now?

Good question. I certainly hope not. I would think that he knows that fifty years ago, similar gaspers were spreading the idea that JFK would be more loyal to Rome than the Constitution.

Same argument, same bigotry, same group of gaspers who are doing the yelling. They just have a louder megaphone, now.

718 simoom  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:49:58am

re: #111 Ojoe

Ramadan at the White House = one term president with no Congress for the last two years.

You can bet on that.

Doing exactly the same didn't make George Bush a one term president... I guess that must be because he wasn't a sekrit muslim ///.

President Bush's Remarks at White House Iftar - 2007

THE PRESIDENT: Thank you all for coming. Please be seated. Ramadan Mubarak. Laura and I are pleased to have you here for our seventh Iftaar dinner. Tonight we celebrate traditions of Islamic faith, which brings hope and comfort to more than a billion people. For Muslims around the world, the holy month of Ramadan is a special time of prayer and fasting. It is a time for charity and service to those less fortunate. It's a time to celebrate Islam's learned and vibrant culture, which has enriched civilization for centuries.

Ramadan is also a good time for Americans of all faiths to reflect on the values we hold in common -- including love of family, gratitude to the Almighty, devotion to community, and a commitment to religious liberty. The freedom of worship is central to the American character. It's the first protection in the Bill of Rights. It holds together the fabric of American society -- supporting every individual's right to practice his or her beliefs without fear.
...

719 webevintage  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:50:06am

re: #712 Nimed

SeafoodGumbo and davesax are giving me urges to build minarets. Somebody should start a Build a Minaret day.

I would like to add a minaret to my house...

720 Nimed  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:51:47am

re: #713 sattv4u2

Later, I'm going to build a banana split, does that count !?!?!

It can. You can sharp the ends of the banana to make a crescent shape, work on either the ice cream balls or the whipped cream to shape a star.

721 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:52:44am

re: #719 webevintage

I would like to add a minaret to my house...

Ahh, going for tax-exempt status, are ya?

Well-played. Just make sure you got your permits and zoning all squared away.

722 Winny Spencer  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:53:05am

re: #698 Guanxi88

Yes. And it generally seems to be a consequence of them comparing Michelle to Marie Antoinette, which is ludicrous and offensive to begin with.

723 Guanxi88  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:53:52am

re: #722 Winny Spencer

Yes. And it generally seems to be a consequence of them comparing Michelle to Marie Antoinette, which is ludicrous and offensive to begin with.

Yeah, that shoe doesn't fit. Michelle seems about the least likely person you'd have an objection to.

724 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 11:56:45am

re: #717 austin_blue

I wonder if this insanity has colored his view of America now

Good reply to that

Also, it doesn't seem to have soured him against Islam due to the insanity of the fanatic jihadis in it. Hopefully he will work to bridge the gap between moderate Muslims and moderate westerners

725 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:00:52pm

re: #111 Ojoe

Obama can make all the fine statements he wants but this mosque thing will hurt him politically.

& Ramadan at the White House = one term president with no Congress for the last two years.

You can bet on that.

Huh? Obama may not "win" the presidential election in 2012, but he doesn't have to. The republicans are hard at work losing it. And recognizing Ramadan is hardly controversial. Bush did it.

As has been pointed out in a recent post, this practice goes back to when Jefferson(?---one of his contemporaries, anyhow) held a sunset dinner for the Tunisian ambassador, out of consideration for Ramadan.

As to Congress, let's see. The Democrats have made a mess of health care, but that mess hasn't been put in place yet. They won't pay a price until later, if ever. The economy is a mess, but it was a mess at the end of 2008. It was a mess in 2005, due to the fact that lending was propping up a weak economy and the lending was going to people who had little chance of being able to make their payments. The Democrats won't and shouldn't get all the blame for the economic mess.

All in all, it's easy enough to say why the Democrats don't deserve control of Congress for 2010. But it's easy to say why the Republicans don't, too. So, who will make the strongest case for being unfit to govern? Both sides are doing their best in their own way. We report, you cry.

This election will break to the Democrats toward the end, as the talking points drumbeat wears thin and voters tire of a factually thin, sectarian and negative campaign that seems to be what the Republicans have decided on.

Democrats won't have anything to rejoice over. This win will mean that they cannot escape responsibility for what happens next, and their understanding of economics is so bad that the harder they try, the more exactly and thoroughly they administer their cure to the patient, the sicker he gets.

We'll be a decade or more sorting this out. Both parties need major repair work to get back to responsible governance.

726 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:05:32pm

re: #716 ProLifeLiberal

I've got a really bad feeling that the only way this rage against Muslims will stop is when something horrible happens. Am I being to pessimistic?

Huh? Yes, you're too pessimistic. If our basic decency prevailed in the wake of 9-11 it's too robust for any little flap like this to come to anything.

727 ClaudeMonet  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:05:42pm

re: #214 Kobalt

Dark falcon: your are wasting your time with these liberals. They clearly support obama unconditionally.

Liberal? Me? Perhaps by the standards of the reactionary area in which I live, but by sane, objective standards, no freaking way. Liberals don't like me, as I approach each issue on its own and don't subscribe to the whole agenda of anyone.

And BTW, in no way do I support The President unconditionally. I find him to be (so far) a weenie on many matters and a detached academic on others. In my lifetime, which goes back to President Eisenhower, there has yet to be a President whom I support unconditionally; but as long as he is The President, I give him the benefit of the doubt if I have any doubt.

On this matter, I wish he had not needed to speak out, but I support what he said.

728 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:06:37pm

re: #111 Ojoe

Obama can make all the fine statements he wants but this mosque thing will hurt him politically.

& Ramadan at the White House = one term president with no Congress for the last two years.

You can bet on that.

Why? Bush held Ramadan iftars as well. Clinton started it, Bush continued it, and Obama is carrying on the tradition.

729 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:07:26pm

re: #726 lostlakehiker

Huh? Yes, you're too pessimistic. If our basic decency prevailed in the wake of 9-11 it's too robust for any little flap like this to come to anything.

bingo

730 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:10:00pm

re: #154 Walter L. Newton

While I respect the constitutional right for this community center/mosque to be built and I have no problem with it, considering the lack of support (right or wrong) by certain segments of the public, this statement and position by the president will almost certainly assure GOP wins in November 2010.

Let them come. There's shit you can't back down on.

If Obama's gonna lose political ground, I'd rather it be for this than a lot of other things.

731 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:12:59pm

re: #165 SeafoodGumbo

You're really making equivalence between Fox News' reporting and the Saudi funding of mosques hate literature that teaches Muslims to feel contempt for the West?

You really have no problem with the fact that a Saudi prince with known ties to terror owns a substantial chunk of one of the West's major new agencies?

That doesn't give you even the slightest concern?

732 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:15:45pm

re: #722 Winny Spencer

Yes. And it generally seems to be a consequence of them comparing Michelle to Marie Antoinette, which is ludicrous and offensive to begin with.

Mostly ludicrous. It's too weird to be offensive.

733 webevintage  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:18:29pm

re: #730 SanFranciscoZionist

Let them come. There's shit you can't back down on.

If Obama's gonna lose political ground, I'd rather it be for this than a lot of other things.

Indeed.
How can it ever be wrong for the President to defend the Constitution against the mob?

734 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:30:04pm

re: #694 Kreniigh

Why do they keep referring to Obama as "Louie" as in "King Hussein Louie"? It's a Jungle Book reference, isn't it. To an orangutan. Am I correct?

Yes, King Louie is the orangutan from The Jungle Book (film, not Kipling).

I think it's a spin-off of the whole bit where he's supposed to be King Louis VI, and Michelle is Marie Antoinette. But how can they resist the ape reference?

735 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:30:27pm

re: #696 rwdflynavy

Yep. That's not racist at all, to compare a black man to an orangutan.
//

Now, if he were a redhead...

736 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:30:52pm

re: #698 Guanxi88

I thought it was a corruption of Louis, as in Louis XIV, a reference to the supposed wretched excesses of his "court" - ie, the FLOTUS' trip to Spain.

They ain't making wretched excess like they used to.

737 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:32:09pm

re: #716 ProLifeLiberal

I've got a really bad feeling that the only way this rage against Muslims will stop is when something horrible happens. Am I being to pessimistic?

No, you're being too optimistic. WHy do you think something horrible happening will stop it?

/I'm being a nervous jerk.

738 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:34:34pm

re: #718 simoom

Doing exactly the same didn't make George Bush a one term president... I guess that must be because he wasn't a sekrit muslim ///.

President Bush's Remarks at White House Iftar - 2007

I have noted, in recent conversations with passing wingnuts that months of repeated, "But Bush did that," has led them not to consider that Obama may not be so bad, but to turn on Bush.

I was, contemptuously, called a "Bushite" last night for bein' soft on Muslims.

739 webevintage  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:37:40pm

re: #736 SanFranciscoZionist

They ain't making wretched excess like they used to.

No kidding.
The President has still not even wasted money for a new rug in the Oval Office and Michelle really needs to get on with the wearing of folks like Galanos and Dior and De Le Renta ever time we see her in public.

And ponies.
Why do those girls not have ponies to ride around on the WH lawn?

740 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:43:06pm

re: #739 webevintage

No kidding.
The President has still not even wasted money for a new rug in the Oval Office and Michelle really needs to get on with the wearing of folks like Galanos and Dior and De Le Renta ever time we see her in public.

And ponies.
Why do those girls not have ponies to ride around on the WH lawn?

Plus, grooms in matched uniforms by Versace to lead the ponies...

741 I Am Kreniigh!  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 12:55:15pm

re: #709 Slumbering Behemoth

I dare anyone to tell me this is not super-cool:

Samsung 3D Projection Mapping In Amsterdam

[Video]It starts off a little slow. Wait for it, wait for it.

Cool. Aside from the cat and the monitor ad, that gave off a serious Bioshock 2 vibe...

742 I Am Kreniigh!  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:09:05pm

re: #734 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, King Louie is the orangutan from The Jungle Book (film, not Kipling).

I think it's a spin-off of the whole bit where he's supposed to be King Louis VI, and Michelle is Marie Antoinette. But how can they resist the ape reference?

The single thing most people know about Marie Antoinette is that "let them eat cake" quote (probably a misattribution), which is assumed to display royal disregard for the lower classes. I guess the King Louie thing fits into that as well.

So... They are pompous, out-of-touch monarchs, and yet also socialists who are going to bankrupt the country with entitlement programs for the poor. Uh huh.

You know what sounds more like "let them eat cake" these days? GWB: "I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."

743 gadlaw  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:39:12pm

You know, I strongly disagree with letting these people build their Islamic Center anywhere near the site of the World Trade Center. I read that 70 Percent of people disagree with building the Islamic Center where they want to build it. Or as the Policitally Correct Police would say '70 Percent of America is Racist and Islamophobes!!*!' It would be perceived by our enemies as weakness on our part and a victory on their part. And knowing the proclivity of religions to build sites then later pronounce them to be 'Holy Sites' that are therefore inviolate and people get killed over, why in the name of common sense would you want to let an Islamic site anywhere near the most horrific terrorist attack on the United States? And for those folks who say 'hey there's a Shinto Shrine near Pearl Harbor!' - I say who won that war? A symbol of healing is fine and dandy when the war is over and the war against 'Radical Islam' isn't anywhere near being over. I see the President trying to wheel back from his pronouncement of unwavering support for the Islamic Center to the right to be able to build an Islamic Center without backing this particular one in this particular place. This is another bit of losing baggage that Obama is taking on as if he purposely wants to be a one term President.

744 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:48:55pm

"These people"

That's all I need to hear.

745 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:50:48pm

re: #743 gadlaw

There's so many bullshit talking points already serially refuted several times up thread in your post that I'm not gonna bother. Instead I'll merely point out that directly across the street from the biggest christian terrorist attack ever in this country (see Terry Nichol's latest ravings about Christian Identity and pure foods from prison if you doubt,) there are two Mega churches. Omigosh, Megachurches across from the Murrah building...
///

746 gadlaw  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:59:08pm

re: #745 Thanos

Hey Thanos, except that it's Christian Megachurches that are ubiquitous in this country and so how can one nutjob or a bunch of nutjobs with the Christian Identity beliefs take those churches as any sort of symbol of the the onward march of their religion? I'm not thinking many if any. MegaChurches are McDonald's Christianity, not White Power Christianity. And I don't know what talking you are referring to. I think my points are valid, thanks much for not addressing them though.

747 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:02:49pm

re: #746 gadlaw

Hey Thanos, except that it's Christian Megachurches that are ubiquitous in this country and so how can one nutjob or a bunch of nutjobs with the Christian Identity beliefs take those churches as any sort of symbol of the the onward march of their religion? I'm not thinking many if any. MegaChurches are McDonald's Christianity, not White Power Christianity. And I don't know what talking you are referring to. I think my points are valid, thanks much for not addressing them though.

You must have missed this part:

There's so many bullshit talking points already serially refuted several times up thread in your post that I'm not gonna bother.
748 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:03:19pm

re: #746 gadlaw

Hey Thanos, except that it's Christian Megachurches that are ubiquitous in this country and so how can one nutjob or a bunch of nutjobs with the Christian Identity beliefs take those churches as any sort of symbol of the the onward march of their religion? I'm not thinking many if any. MegaChurches are McDonald's Christianity, not White Power Christianity. And I don't know what talking you are referring to. I think my points are valid, thanks much for not addressing them though.

Your points are contra constitutional bullshit. You are a fool. You get your TP from wingnuts. Opposition to the mosque and full on clash of civilizations is what the real terrorists like Zawahiri want, along with the Christian bigots who oppose this mosque. The Christian fundies further this agitprop better than Bin Laden does.

You are right in line with Westboro Baptist, Dove World Outreach, The Operation Rescue fundy whackos, and several other Christian dominionist type idiots. All of them want the bible to be the law instead of the constitutution, and I can see you love the idea as well.

749 gadlaw  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:04:26pm

re: #744 Stanley Sea

I know this place has turned into a green style Daily Kos but all I meant by 'these people' is that I don't know who all of those folks are who are advocating and pushing this Islamic Center. It can't be all those Muslims who are marching against violence - I haven't seen any of those. It can't be any of those Muslims who are saying that Israel has a right to exist - Haven't seen any of those. It can't be any of those Muslims who I see campaigning for Women's rights - haven't seen any of those. Everyone wants to get along as long as getting along means having your beliefs and your Religion jammed down the throats of the survivors of the World Trade Center attacks and the rest of us.

750 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:06:11pm

re: #749 gadlaw

Read the thread, all your questions have been answered.

751 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:06:37pm

re: #749 gadlaw

The Imam of the mosque in question says Israel has a right to exist and favors a two state solution, Charles has posted the same here. So either you are an ignorant fool, or lying through your teeth. Pick one mr neg karma.

752 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:08:31pm

re: #749 gadlaw

And I don't know why I was nice. You sound full of irrational hate. Jammed down their throats?

753 bratwurst  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:08:42pm

re: #749 gadlaw

I know this place has turned into a green style Daily Kos.

So I guess that means you will be fucking the hell off any time now.

754 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:09:17pm

re: #749 gadlaw

I love how you use the favorite wingnut phrase "Jammed down your throats"... that right, a mosque two blocks from the WTC that already exists and which has been in service a long time is "jamming somethign down your throat"... You are just another xenophobe bigot.

755 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:11:17pm

Hey Gadlaw -- I'll think of you when I burn the idiot traitor's flag on 9/12

756 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:12:19pm

re: #749 gadlaw

Dude, you're a Buddhist? You're website does not reflect your comments here AT ALL. How in the hell did freedom of religion turn you so bad?

757 gadlaw  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:16:47pm

re: #748 Thanos

I'm an atheist actually. And I don't see how labeling everyone who disagrees with you can be put in such a box. Point in fact - religions are not inclusive of anyone outside of their religions. How is letting Muslims build a Center that close to the World Trade Center opening anyone's arms? Why is it necessary to conflict rather than compromise? With so much objection to it why not build it further down the street? The hardliners on all sides love the fight, they love the conflict. Why let there be a conflict? I would love it very much if Islam evolved to allow rights to women and no longer took their religion as an excuse to do all the horrific things done in it's name. I'd love to see Christianity evolve to where they don't exclude gay people from equal human rights. The Christian fundamentalists though are fighting to keep gay folks from getting married. In Iran they execute gay folks. Tell me again why I need to be tolerant of either when neither is tolerant of other folks? And why does that make me a nutcase for seeing reality?

758 gadlaw  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:18:17pm

re: #754 Thanos

Again, I'm talking about how the folks who were impacted directly by the attack on the World Trade Center feel. You don't believe they have any validity in their feelings?

759 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:18:54pm

re: #757 gadlaw

They own the property. Have for years.

760 gadlaw  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:26:27pm

re: #756 Stanley Sea

You guys are always in such attack mode these days. If everyone is always attacking everyone how is anything supposed to be actually discussed and valid points expressed? Everyone who objects to the Islamic center being build where they want to build it can't possibly be a racist. Some people have honest thoughts that don't agree with your thoughts. I mean, if you think everyone who disagrees with you is a racist then attacking everyone who doesn't have your point of view is valid I suppose. All those pesky racists out there, must feel like a Zombie Apocalypse to you guys.

761 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:31:56pm

re: #760 gadlaw

You guys are always in such attack mode these days. If everyone is always attacking everyone how is anything supposed to be actually discussed and valid points expressed? Everyone who objects to the Islamic center being build where they want to build it can't possibly be a racist. Some people have honest thoughts that don't agree with your thoughts. I mean, if you think everyone who disagrees with you is a racist then attacking everyone who doesn't have your point of view is valid I suppose. All those pesky racists out there, must feel like a Zombie Apocalypse to you guys.

No.

It's frustrating that you obviously didn't read the thread. All the points you have brought up have been discussed in detail. We're ahead of your comments by far and it's frustrating to hear them brought up, once again.

762 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:39:57pm

re: #757 gadlaw

Well unless you opposed the churches across from the Murrah building then you are inconsistent, and I see no point in talking to someone who is choosing to be a bigot.

763 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:40:56pm

re: #760 gadlaw

hahah bullshit, you come in calling us all "Dailykos" and then try to pretend that we are attacking? What a fuckin wanker fool.

764 abolitionist  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:57:51pm

For in the end, we remain “one nation, under God, indivisible.” And we can only achieve “liberty and justice for all” if we live by that one rule at the heart of every religion, including Islam—that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

With respect to islam and the golden rule, my President is blowing smoke.

I agree with Obama's central messages about religious freedom in America, but he should not be trying so hard to misrepresent history, or the tenants of any religion, as he seems to be doing here.

On the subject of Jefferson's White House dinner for the Tunisian Ambassador, there's a mention of it here - Tunisian Envoy

Mellimelli was in Washington during Ramadan, a month-long period in which Muslims fast from sunrise to sunset. To accommodate his guest’s religious obligation, Jefferson’s invitation to the President’s House on December 9 changed the time of dinner from the usual “half after three” to “precisely at sunset.”

765 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 4:50:14pm

re: #760 gadlaw

You guys are always in such attack mode these days.

you've never seen me in attack mode.

You never want to see me in attack mode.
Snivelling piece of trolling shit.

766 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 5:14:47pm

re: #761 Stanley Sea

No.

It's frustrating that you obviously didn't read the thread. All the points you have brought up have been discussed in detail. We're ahead of your comments by far and it's frustrating to hear them brought up, once again.

THIS.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

^ back to top ^

Name:

Pass:

Register Forgot Your Password? Re-send Confirmation (To log in, cookies must be enabled in your browser!)

Turn off ads by subscribing!
For about 33 cents a day, our subscription option turns off all advertisements at LGF!
Read more...


► LGF Headlines

  • Loading...

► Tweeted Articles

  • Loading...

► Tweeted Pages

  • Loading...

► Top 10 Comments

  • Loading...

► Bottom Comments

  • Loading...

► Recent Comments

  • Loading...

► Tools/Info

► Tag Cloud

► Contact

You must have Javascript enabled to use the contact form.
Your email:

Subject:

Message:


Messages may be published in our weblog, unless you request otherwise.
Tech Note:
Using the Contact Form

More Partners

Compare Electricity Prices in your area. Texas Electricity is deregulated; you have the right to choose Texas Electric Rates from among many Texas Electric Companies.

Stone the unfaithful monkey.

TwitterFacebook
LGF Pages
Recent Pages

Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You
Lying For Jesus: Something We See More of Every Day, The Ends Justify The Means?
33 minutes ago
Views: 22 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 0

researchok
Honoring Fallen Civil War Soldiers
44 minutes ago
Views: 30 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 0

MikeySDCA
The History of the Paper Clip: It Was Invented in 1899. It Hasn't Been Improved Upon Since.
1 hour, 25 minutes ago
Views: 28 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 0

Daniel Ballard
Late Afternoon Light-Kalanchoe
1 day, 1 hour ago
Views: 165 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 5

Eclectic Infidel
City College of San Francisco Budget Update
1 day, 2 hours ago
Views: 184 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 0

Michael McBacon
Kansas governor signs 'Shariah bill' to ban Islamic law
1 day, 6 hours ago
Views: 326 • Comments: 7
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 6

Aigle
National Geographic Traveler Veers Off Track
2 days, 6 hours ago
Views: 720 • Comments: 16
Tweets: 24 • Rating: -6

MichaelJ
Apple TV Slated to Debut in December?
2 days, 7 hours ago
Views: 271 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 1

Ascher
Israeli Who Saved Turk on Everest: You Never Abandon a Friend - Israel News, Ynetnews
2 days, 9 hours ago
Views: 348 • Comments: 1
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 4

Haywood Jabloeme
The Harrassment of Patterico & Its Roots in Left-Wing Activism
2 days, 9 hours ago
Views: 588 • Comments: 2
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 4

 Frank says:

Here I stand hoping against hope that it's a chick with a low voice. -- At a concert in Beloit, Wisconsin 1968 or 69, when a guy in the audience yelled out, "Eat me Zappa".