Hallowed Ground?

US News • Views: 3,943

Daryl Lang has an excellent post with a dozen photographs of some of the other stuff about two blocks from the “hallowed ground” of the World Trade Center — the same distance as the “Ground Zero Mosque:” ‘Hallowed Ground’.

What’s my point? A month ago, I wrote about my support for a group of Muslim New Yorkers—whom I consider my neighbors—and their right to put a religious building on a piece of private property in Lower Manhattan. Since then, the debate over the Park51 community center, inaccurately nicknamed the “Ground Zero Mosque,” has jumped from talk radio to mainstream conversation, and turned nasty in the process. Sarah Palin wrote that, “it would be an intolerable and tragic mistake to allow such a project sponsored by such an individual to go forward on such hallowed ground.”

Look at the photos. This neighborhood is not hallowed. The people who live and work here are not obsessed with 9/11. The blocks around Ground Zero are like every other hard-working neighborhood in New York, where Muslims are just another thread of the city fabric.

At this point the only argument against this project is fear, specifically fear of Muslims, and that’s a bigoted, cowardly and completely indefensible position.

I couldn’t agree more with Lang’s statement.

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260 comments
1 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:37:04am

And I agree with him right along with you.

Charles - thank you for LGF.

2 webevintage  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:37:16am

Breaking: Halal food carts cited ON Ground Zero!
[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

3 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:37:42am

Transvestites and bookies did not murder thousands of Americans on Sep. 11th. And if they did, they were not Muslim transvestites and bookies!!!

/

4 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:39:34am

What could be more American than having fast food, seeing an exotic dancer, placing a bet then going to pray (regardless of denomination) all within a couple of blocks!!!

T-SHIRTS ,,, GET YOUR AUTHENTIC NEW YORK T-SHIRTS HERE !!

5 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:39:50am

They better not build an ice cream store anywhere near ground zero. I'm completely intolerant... of lactose.

/dunno where that came from.

6 elizajane  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:42:01am

It was telling that in the survey of New Yorkers' opinions on the Muslim Community Center, while in the city overall about 65% were opposed and 35% were in favor, those numbers were reversed in Manhattan where people get what 2 blocks away means, what a crowded and diverse neighborhood is actually like... I think that over 70 % were in favor. That's why it passed the planning council so easily.
But as has been said, there's no real way to put this back into the hands of the neighborhood.

7 theheat  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:42:21am

This hallowed ground mantra is nothing more than masturbation fodder for a bunch of red meat wingnuts trying to shit up and down the Constitution, while simultaneously pimping their own oppressive world views.

Brought to you courtesy of the great white Christian land of Neverfuckingwas.

8 Kragarghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:44:39am

Caught Rush this morning coming in. He was arguing that anything even touched by debris should be considered "hallowed ground."

9 SpaceJesus  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:45:52am
10 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:46:41am

I agree with a lot of those opponents that it is a bad idea and should not be built, but I cannot see any legal grounds to prevent it from being built, especially if the local board approved it.

When it is built, it will probably lead to violent protest (especially if there is another lethal Islamist terrorist attack on US territory), but backing down out of fear of violent reprisal is truly the moral equivalent of giving into terrorists.

11 theheat  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:47:08am

re: #8 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

At least as sacred as any one of his marriages.

12 webevintage  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:47:57am

re: #8 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Caught Rush this morning coming in. He was arguing that anything even touched by debris should be considered "hallowed ground."

So then I guess Rush is against the underground mall that is being built right in ground zero...shopping in a graveyard....awesome.

13 jaunte  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:49:00am

re: #8 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Caught Rush this morning coming in. He was arguing that anything even touched by debris should be considered "hallowed ground."

I guess by that he specifically means 'ground which is forbidden to Muslims.'

14 Kragarghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:49:12am

re: #12 webevintage

So then I guess Rush is against the underground mall that is being built right in ground zero...shopping in a graveyard...awesome.

Do they plan to advertise on his show?

15 aurelius  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:49:15am

lol... exactly...

"But the terrorists were not screaming "Put 2 grand on Whistler's Mother in the 6th" as they were crashing the planes... it was Allahu akbar... blah blah blah"

Idiot wingnuts


re: #3 ralphieboy

Transvestites and bookies did not murder thousands of Americans on Sep. 11th. And if they did, they were not Muslim transvestites and bookies!!!

/

16 What, me worry?  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:49:22am

The REAL question is... are any of those places owned by Muslims?

The strip club
Burger King
Off track betting
Shop after shop after shop

I think this should be the shrieking harpy's new mission. Find every Muslim owned business in Manhattan and stand outside and rant.

Eh, no one would pay attention. NYers are used to weird ranting people anyway.

17 theheat  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:49:24am

re: #12 webevintage

But that's just good business.
//

18 garhighway  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:50:49am

re: #10 ralphieboy

I agree with a lot of those opponents that it is a bad idea and should not be built,

Please describe the precise size and shape of the Islamic Community Center Exclusion Zone you would propose. And how you arrived at that size and shape. And what else ought be excluded from that Zone.

19 Surabaya Stew  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:50:51am

Scared strippers & gamblers....my city has it all, I tell you!
/

20 Sakublock  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:50:54am

re: #5 MrSilverDragon

re: #3 ralphieboy

Right and Bloomberg hates transfats.

21 webevintage  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:51:24am

re: #10 ralphieboy


When it is built, it will probably lead to violent protest (especially if there is another lethal Islamist terrorist attack on US territory), but backing down out of fear of violent reprisal is truly the moral equivalent of giving into terrorists.

I disagree.
If ElizaJane is right then the people who live in Manhattan proper do. not. care.
They want it built.
There might be one or two protests at the beginning, but after awhile most people will forget and the rest will wonder what the fuss was all about while they are swimming in the pool or bringing their kids there for a playgroup.

22 aurelius  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:51:41am

am worried though that this is causing blowback on Obama..

[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

that's what you get for standing up for completley unfettered freedom of expression in America.

Somehow we need to educate middle america on this. Freedom of expression is an absolute.

23 oriana fan  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:52:12am

when OTB bettors or go-go girls fly planes into buildings screaming the virtues of their faith, I will agree that neither of them should be allowed to build a triumphal facility near the location of their conquest. those businesses were likely there before 9/11 and they do not dig up wonds of survivors and their families.

If these folks want to earn a place in american hearts they should announce they are moving their "community center" to another location along with a sizable donation to a fund that supports the families of 9/11. They will also disclose the source of thier foreign funding. Finally, I am still waiting for the massive "not in our name" parade help by muslim americans in NY and DC after 9/11. Likewise, I am still waiting for all the arab speaking volunteers to flock to the FBI and CIA to help our govt digest the raw intelligence that is gathered.

oriana fan.

24 wrenchwench  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:52:52am

re: #23 oriana fan

a triumphal facility

hahahahaha

25 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:53:01am

Well Lang certainly debunked that. Not that it will work with people like Palin, Limbaugh, and Gingrich. People need to realize that we don't have the right to limit freedoms based on our emotions which is exactly what is happening right here.

26 Alouenghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:53:26am

re: #2 webevintage

Breaking: Halal food carts cited ON Ground Zero!
[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

The article Charles linked shows a kosher pizza parlor.

27 What, me worry?  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:53:28am

Geller in 25 years.

28 webevintage  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:53:46am

re: #23 oriana fan

when OTB bettors or go-go girls fly planes into buildings screaming the virtues of their faith, I will agree that neither of them should be allowed to build a triumphal facility near the location of their conquest. those businesses were likely there before 9/11 and they do not dig up wonds of survivors and their families.

If these folks want to earn a place in american hearts they should announce they are moving their "community center" to another location along with a sizable donation to a fund that supports the families of 9/11. They will also disclose the source of thier foreign funding. Finally, I am still waiting for the massive "not in our name" parade help by muslim americans in NY and DC after 9/11. Likewise, I am still waiting for all the arab speaking volunteers to flock to the FBI and CIA to help our govt digest the raw intelligence that is gathered.

oriana fan.

Your post proves the terrorists have won.
Thanks for that.

29 Claire  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:54:36am

If it were proposed to be built right smack-dab in the center of the footprint of one of the towers, in some retail space, still with the 11 story Moorish filigree facade, etc, would the basic argument here change?

30 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:55:00am

re: #22 aurelius

Somehow we need to educate middle america on this

please define "middle America"

31 Kragarghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:55:01am

re: #23 oriana fan

I'm waiting for Catholics to come clean on decades of child abuse and Evangelicals to apologize for harrassing, assaulting and killing doctors.

32 Alouenghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:55:20am

re: #12 webevintage

So then I guess Rush is against the underground mall that is being built right in ground zero...shopping in a graveyard...awesome.

Wasn't there already an underground mall beneath the Twin Towers? I seem to remember a number of people escaping to safety through the mall.

33 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:55:21am

Meanwhile the wingnuts are making up stories about their religious freedom being inhibited....
Glenn Beck told they can't pray at Kennedy Center


Outrageous!
/...and bogus too.
34 theheat  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:55:43am

re: #23 oriana fan

Class of 2007? It keeps us on our toes to change it up now and then.

35 Gus  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:56:05am

re: #23 oriana fan

You're waiting for "Arab speaking volunteers to flock to the FBI and CIA to help our govt digest the raw intelligence that is gathered?"

That's just plain dumb.

36 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:56:18am

re: #18 garhighway

Please describe the precise size and shape of the Islamic Community Center Exclusion Zone you would propose. And how you arrived at that size and shape. And what else ought be excluded from that Zone.

Please note the nuance, I do not oppose this or any other Islamic Center in America, I don't find it a good idea given the fact that it has caused such an uproar and is going to offend a lot of people's sensibilities, but I never said it should not be built.

37 Kragarghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:56:30am

re: #32 Alouette

Wasn't there already an underground mall beneath the Twin Towers? I seem to remember a number of people escaping to safety through the mall.

Wasn't that part of the Subway, just a larger station because of the WTC?

38 wrenchwench  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:56:56am

re: #29 Claire

If it were proposed to be built right smack-dab in the center of the footprint of one of the towers, in some retail space, still with the 11 story Moorish filigree facade, etc, would the basic argument here change?

Is it the Moorish filigree facade for you, when you get right down to it?

39 jaunte  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:57:04am

re: #36 ralphieboy

The uproar is being stoked largely by people who are profiting from the uproar.

40 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:57:14am

re: #23 oriana fan

Your fan is broken!

41 elizajane  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:57:19am

Surprisingly excellent column this morning by Michael Gerson, attracting huge amounts of comment on the WaPo website. His bottom line: "A war on Islam would make a war on terrorism impossible" and Obama has done exactly the right thing.
Stunned applause from half the commentators, enraged hissy-fits from the rest.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

42 garhighway  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:57:44am

re: #32 Alouette

Wasn't there already an underground mall beneath the Twin Towers? I seem to remember a number of people escaping to safety through the mall.

There was.

And by the way, the WTC site is not "a graveyard". No one is buried there.

43 webevintage  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:58:31am

re: #26 Alouette

The article Charles linked shows a kosher pizza parlor.

The Daily Show did a hi-larious spot with Wyatt Cenac freaking out because Ground Zero is surrounded by Arabic food vendors:
[Link: www.dailymotion.com...]

"Even the Wall Street Douchebags are trickling back in..."

44 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:58:51am

re: #23 oriana fan

when OTB bettors or go-go girls fly planes into buildings screaming the virtues of their faith, I will agree that neither of them should be allowed to build a triumphal facility near the location of their conquest. those businesses were likely there before 9/11 and they do not dig up wonds of survivors and their families.

If these folks want to earn a place in american hearts they should announce they are moving their "community center" to another location along with a sizable donation to a fund that supports the families of 9/11. They will also disclose the source of thier foreign funding. Finally, I am still waiting for the massive "not in our name" parade help by muslim americans in NY and DC after 9/11. Likewise, I am still waiting for all the arab speaking volunteers to flock to the FBI and CIA to help our govt digest the raw intelligence that is gathered.

oriana fan.


You make the assumption that all Muslims support Al-Qaeda and the attacks it has been carrying out, even though most of AQ's victims are Muslims who disagree with its radical fundamentalism.

But that is the very mentality that is stoking opposition to this project.

45 Alouenghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:59:00am

re: #37 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Wasn't that part of the Subway, just a larger station because of the WTC?

No, there was a shopping center there. It probably had an entrance to the subway.

46 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:59:34am

re: #42 garhighway

There was.

And by the way, the WTC site is not "a graveyard". No one is buried there.

On that I have to disagree

There are body parts (and even entire bodies) that have never been recovered and/ or were incinerated there

I know if I had e relative that that happened too, i would consider it their grave!

47 Kragarghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:59:40am

The real enemy

Taliban kill couple in public stoning

Mullah Quli resident Abdul Satar said about 100 people, most of them Taliban insurgents, gathered in the village on Sunday evening as a statement was read out saying the pair had confessed to their affair.

He said the man was married to someone else, and the woman was engaged.

"The Taliban convicted both to stoning to death, some from the crowd started throwing stones at the couple until they died," Mr Satar said.

The couple had their hands bound behind their backs and were forced to stand in an empty field as their sentence was carried out, he said.

A local Taliban commander, who contacted media but refused to give his name, confirmed the killings.

"The couple confessed they had eloped together and based on their confession they were stoned to death," he said.

Under Islamic Sharia law, sex between unmarried people is punishable by public beatings, while punishment for those caught in extra-marital affairs is death by stoning.

48 What, me worry?  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:00:00am

re: #23 oriana fan

Oh ok, you mean like the bill that the REPUBLICANS voted against to aid the 9/11 victims? So sad, too bad, but you lose, sweetie.

People like you don't get it. You'll never get it. You have to be proven guilty of a crime before you're treated like a criminal. Sorry that disturbs you.

49 wrenchwench  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:00:13am

re: #44 ralphieboy

But that is the very mentality that is stoking opposition to this project.

That is oriana fan's objective.

50 jaunte  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:00:14am

re: #41 elizajane

Surprisingly excellent column this morning by Michael Gerson, attracting huge amounts of comment on the WaPo website. His bottom line: "A war on Islam would make a war on terrorism impossible" and Obama has done exactly the right thing.
Stunned applause from half the commentators, enraged hissy-fits from the rest.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

Good thinking.

How precisely is our cause served by treating the construction of a non-radical mosque in Lower Manhattan as the functional equivalent of defiling a grave? It assumes a civilizational conflict instead of defusing it. Symbolism is indeed important in the war against terrorism. But a mosque that rejects radicalism is not a symbol of the enemy's victory; it is a prerequisite for our own.

The federal government has a response to American mosques taken over by advocates of violence. It investigates them, freezes their assets and charges their leaders. It does not urge zoning decisions that express a general discomfort with Islam itself.

51 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:00:35am

Those photos don't even begin to convey the life and business around Ground Zero. Many of those businesses were there pre 9/11, including Ho Yip, the Burger King, Century 21, and many others.

Then you have the street hawkers.

Webevintage commented in the last thread about the propriety about building a shopping mall beneath Ground Zero. The plan is to build about 400-500,000sf of retail space to replace the mall that was there when the towers collapsed. That's part of the coordinated effort with the PATH transit hub.

I take PATH daily through the WTC, and it can still be somewhat eerie and unsettling to go through the site, especially when it gets quiet. It was especially so the first time I made that trip not long after PATH was restored. I knew what happened there. I was 7 stories beneath the ground, and knew that there nearly 3,000 people who died all about that site, some doing what I was doing that day - merely commuting to and from work.

Some features of the temporary PATH station are reminders of the original - from the bank of long elevators (PATH hill) to the signage.

Not building anything at Ground Zero would have been far worse. The delays were maddening. But the site is getting built - and you've got some families who complained about every aspect of the proposed and actual plans for Ground Zero. Some still do. If you leave it up to the families, I doubt you'd get agreement, let alone a coherent plan.

I just want the memorial and museum to be respectful of the victims - telling an unvarnished history of what happened that day, and the sacrifices made by the rescue personnel who ran up the towers when everyone else was running down. And I want to see the construction done sooner rather than later.

52 garhighway  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:01:03am

re: #36 ralphieboy

Please note the nuance, I do not oppose this or any other Islamic Center in America, I don't find it a good idea given the fact that it has caused such an uproar and is going to offend a lot of people's sensibilities, but I never said it should not be built.

You said "it should not be built". I assume that you do not mean that "it should not be built" ANYWHERE, just at the currently planned location. (If I have that wrong, then this conversation goes in a different path.) So what's your test for where it should be built and where it shouldn't be?

It's a simple question, and anyone who says it shouldn't be built where proposed ought to be able to answer it.

53 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:01:19am

re: #23 oriana fan

I look forward to a visit to the center on my next trip to NYC. If allowed I'll say a prayer for their success as a place of peace.

Lawhawk, I'll be sure to wave in your general direction! Love your blog updates.

54 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:01:25am

re: #48 marjoriemoon

Oh ok, you mean like the bill that the REPUBLICANS voted against to aid the 9/11 victims? So sad, too bad, but you lose, sweetie.

People like you don't get it. You'll never get it. You have to be proven guilty of a crime before you're treated like a criminal. Sorry that disturbs you.

If the Democrats had any balls, they'd point this out time and time after again.

55 pharmmajor  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:01:54am

Unfortunately, not even this will drive sense into the anti-Muslim idiots staging these hateful protests. A few kicks to the scrotums might, though.

56 garhighway  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:02:16am

re: #46 sattv4u2

On that I have to disagree

There are body parts (and even entire bodies) that have never been recovered and/ or were incinerated there

I know if I had e relative that that happened too, i would consider it their grave!

The WTC site was excavated and cleaned down to bedrock. It was broom-clean.

57 pharmmajor  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:02:17am

re: #54 HappyWarrior

If the Democrats had any balls, they'd point this out time and time after again.

If the democrats had any balls, they'd be Libertarians.

58 webevintage  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:02:37am

re: #42 garhighway

There was.

And by the way, the WTC site is not "a graveyard". No one is buried there.

Oh no, nonononono...just the other day I was listening to MSNBC and a gal (who lost her mother in the attacks and her body was never recovered) was on saying how she did not want the Mosque anywhere near ground zero because she considers that her mother's gravesite.

(listen guys, I understand there was a mall and a subway and while it seems kinda creepy to build underground to me personally, I'm just using the argument to point out the complete hypocrasy in using the words "hallowed" and "sacred".)

59 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:02:49am

Glenn Beck worries about Muslims breeding......

After stoking fears about Muslim birth rate, Beck says we're on "edge of the precipice," across which is "Dark Ages"

The Muslim Demographics video is, of course, old and bogus White Nationalist propaganda.

60 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:03:04am

re: #48 marjoriemoon

Oh ok, you mean like the bill that the REPUBLICANS voted against to aid the 9/11 victims? So sad, too bad, but you lose, sweetie.

People like you don't get it. You'll never get it. You have to be proven guilty of a crime before you're treated like a criminal. Sorry that disturbs you.

And now,, the REST of the story (why the Repubs were against the bill )

Democrats used rules requiring a wider majority for approval to prevent Republicans from offering amendments on the floor that would embarrass Democrats in an election year.

61 Kragarghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:03:13am

re: #57 pharmmajor

If the democrats had any balls, they'd be Libertarians.

Well, they'ld be nuts at least.

62 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:03:27am

re: #21 webevintage

CB 1, which represents the local community has put up with a whole lot worse than the proposed Cordoba House.

How about dealing with the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, where thousands were chased out of their homes by the collapsing towers - the fires, damage and devastation throughout the area, and the contamination of thousands of apartments with the pulverized dust of those towers.

They are still dealing with Ground Zero - coping with the constant construction, the detours, security, and all the rest.

They approved the project. They are closest to the issue - and they have to live with it. They wanted the community center, and thought it would improve their community.

63 Lidanghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:03:37am
64 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:04:05am

re: #56 garhighway

The WTC site was excavated and cleaned down to bedrock. It was broom-clean.

hence,,, why INCINERATED was added to my post

Again, if I lost a loved on there and their body wasn't recovered, I would consider it their final resting place

65 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:04:11am

re: #2 webevintage

Breaking: Halal food carts cited ON Ground Zero!
[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

Dammit, now I'm in the mood for shawarma.

66 pharmmajor  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:04:14am

re: #61 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Well, they'ld be nuts at least.

Ha ha, very funny. *raises middle finger*

67 garhighway  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:04:21am

re: #58 webevintage

Oh no, nonononono...just the other day I was listening to MSNBC and a gal (who lost her mother in the attacks and her body was never recovered) was on saying how she did not want the Mosque anywhere near ground zero because she considers that her mother's gravesite.

(listen guys, I understand there was a mall and a subway and while it seems kinda creepy to build underground to me personally, I'm just using the argument to point out the complete hypocrasy in using the words "hallowed" and "sacred".)

She can consider it whatever she wants, I guess. But to me, "gravesite" means someone is buried there. No one is buried there.

68 oriana fan  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:04:28am

re: #28 webevintage

The terrorists have won? What do you think it is they want?

Not having the mosque built there is not a sign of intolerance, it is a sign of sensitivity.

69 Michael McBacon  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:05:17am

re: #23 oriana fan

If these folks want to earn a place in american hearts they should announce they are moving their "community center" to another location along with a sizable donation to a fund that supports the families of 9/11.

So no families of 9/11 victims are okay with the Cordoba House?


They will also disclose the source of thier foreign funding

Funds have been raised in New York, dummkopf.

70 wrenchwench  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:05:22am

re: #68 oriana fan

The terrorists have won? What do you think it is they want?

Not having the mosque built there is not a sign of intolerance, it is a sign of sensitivity.

I've never seen such an insensitive bunch demand sensitivity from others.

71 JRCMYP  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:05:59am

Not sure if anyone has posted this link yet, but here is a video showing the actual distanced (walked) from "ground zero" to the door of the community center/mosque.

72 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:06:10am

re: #63 Lidane

Well, this is interesting:

Laura Ingraham To Co-Founder Of Ground Zero Mosque In December 2009: ‘I Like What You’re Trying To Do’


That's very interesting. I guess Ingraham cheers for the 9-11 hijackers (Geller mode off)

73 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:06:30am

re: #37 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The WTC complex contained a major shopping mall, which was one of the most profitable in the nation due to the proximity to 50,000 people working in the Twin Towers and the PATH and subway line connections. It had everything from food outlets to a Barnes and Noble and dozens of other businesses. Heck, I recall reports about emergency personnel getting into parts of the shopping area that were undamaged and finding things in suspended animation - everything left as it was the morning of the attacks.

74 jaunte  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:06:36am

Another well reasoned bit of the Gerson piece linked above:

Here again, this debate illustrates a gap in perspective. A commentator can speak with obvious sincerity of preventing American hallowed ground from being overshadowed by a mosque. A president not only serves Muslim citizens, not only commands Muslims in the American military, but also leads a coalition that includes Iraqi and Afghan Muslims who risk death each day fighting Islamic radicalism at our side. How could he possibly tell them that their place of worship inherently symbolizes the triumph of terror?
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

75 What, me worry?  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:06:37am

re: #51 lawhawk

Actually, I'm in favor of nothing being there except a park. A place of reflection and contemplation. Even then it might be a little weird, but to put anything there - on the site itself - eventually people will forget what it is, 50, 100 years down the road.

76 theheat  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:06:39am

re: #58 webevintage

Considering they're erecting a commercial building on the "hallowed" WTC site... Does it get any less tacky? I think not. It's a monument to freakin' capitalism, not a hundred-plus story grave marker. Let's get real. These people need to re-examine their own hypocrisy.

77 Lidanghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:07:39am

re: #68 oriana fan

Moving the site of Park51 or otherwise not building it is an undeserved victory for the anti-Muslim bigots like Pam Geller and Glenn Beck. It's also a sign that people can still emotionally exploit 9/11 as loudly as possible and people will still fall for it.

Neither of those are preferable options. The Park51 project must go forward, and it must be built exactly where they're going to build it. Period. To do otherwise is to give the intolerant bigots and the cynical manipulators on the right a win.

78 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:07:43am

re: #29 Claire

If it were proposed to be built right smack-dab in the center of the footprint of one of the towers, in some retail space, still with the 11 story Moorish filigree facade, etc, would the basic argument here change?

Nope. The level of vitriol would though.

79 allegro  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:07:52am

re: #68 oriana fan

Not having the mosque built there is not a sign of intolerance, it is a sign of sensitivity.

Where is your sensitivity to the Muslims who died on 911?

80 webevintage  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:08:49am

re: #60 sattv4u2

And now,, the REST of the story (why the Repubs were against the bill )

Democrats used rules requiring a wider majority for approval to prevent Republicans from offering amendments on the floor that would embarrass Democrats in an election year.

So damn the Dems when they show they are politicians just like the GOP?

Really the amendments the GOP wanted to attach would have opened back up the loop hole in taxes that was going to pay for the plan AND keep any money from first responders who might be illegal aliens who then got ill because yeah, if your illegal you can just fuck off according to the GOP.

IF the GOP really wanted to take care of the 9/11 folks they would have voted yea instead of standing around whining about the procedure.
Sorry, I agree with Weiner on this one....

81 Lidanghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:09:09am

re: #79 allegro

Where is your sensitivity to the Muslims who died on 911?

Oh, but didn't you know? The only Muslims who died that day are the assholes who flew the planes into the buildings. Everyone else who died was a Real Murikan. *eyeroll*

82 Gus  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:09:17am
83 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:09:25am

re: #56 garhighway

Despite those claims that it was cleared of debris down to bedrock, remains have been found in the vicinity of Ground Zero from time to time - including in utility vaults underground along West Street a couple of years ago, and on rooftops (former Deutsche Bank building). Some families don't believe it was possible to get every piece of human remains removed from the site, and some think that any construction there was wrong.

84 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:09:50am

re: #75 marjoriemoon

Actually, I'm in favor of nothing being there except a park. A place of reflection and contemplation. Even then it might be a little weird, but to put anything there - on the site itself - eventually people will forget what it is, 50, 100 years down the road.

I kind of agree

but OTOH, I would build an EXACT replica of the original WTC plus one story higher as a "Fuck You, Terrorists"

85 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:10:09am

re: #32 Alouette

Wasn't there already an underground mall beneath the Twin Towers? I seem to remember a number of people escaping to safety through the mall.

Wow. An underground mall. I just really like that idea. I remember watching SNL some years back with my now ex and she mentioned that in the opening scenes, where cast members were shown having drinks at a bar, that the bar was part of the underground network of retail stores of the WTC.

86 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:10:22am

re: #52 garhighway

You said "it should not be built". I assume that you do not mean that "it should not be built" ANYWHERE, just at the currently planned location. (If I have that wrong, then this conversation goes in a different path.) So what's your test for where it should be built and where it shouldn't be?

It's a simple question, and anyone who says it shouldn't be built where proposed ought to be able to answer it.


Nuance is a dangerous thing, I am working and blogging at the same time, and did not choose my words carefully enough so that they could not be flung back at me.

So let me rephrase it: I think it is a bad idea, I do not support it in any way, but I absolutely see absolutely no legal grounds for opposing it.

87 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:11:35am

re: #84 sattv4u2

There was this idea floating around...

Image: new-wtc.jpg

Then again, with the current master plan, if all the towers get built as proposed, we'd have something like a 5 fingered salute.

88 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:12:23am

re: #80 webevintage

Heading into the vote, Democrats acknowledged it would be difficult to gather enough support to pass the bill under special rules requiring a two-thirds majority.

But Democrats were concerned that a simple majority vote would allow Republicans to propose a controversial amendment that seeks to deny 9/11 health benefits to illegal immigrants.

hmmmm

89 garhighway  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:12:36am

re: #64 sattv4u2

hence,,, why INCINERATED was added to my post

Again, if I lost a loved on there and their body wasn't recovered, I would consider it their final resting place

And therefore you would have the right to veto whatever the owners chose to do with it? You would have some sort of property right?

90 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:13:14am

re: #87 lawhawk

There was this idea floating around...

Image: new-wtc.jpg

Then again, with the current master plan, if all the towers get built as proposed, we'd have something like a 5 fingered salute.

Yeah ,,, I saw that one

made me :)

91 darthstar  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:13:22am

re: #87 lawhawk

There was this idea floating around...

Image: new-wtc.jpg

Then again, with the current master plan, if all the towers get built as proposed, we'd have something like a 5 fingered salute.

I would so prefer that design to the one they actually chose.

92 garhighway  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:13:46am

re: #83 lawhawk

Despite those claims that it was cleared of debris down to bedrock, remains have been found in the vicinity of Ground Zero from time to time - including in utility vaults underground along West Street a couple of years ago, and on rooftops (former Deutsche Bank building). Some families don't believe it was possible to get every piece of human remains removed from the site, and some think that any construction there was wrong.

I agree, and I expect that the cleanup of the surrounding buildings wasn't nearly as thorough as in the WTC site itself.

93 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:13:48am

re: #75 marjoriemoon

There will be a memorial park and hundreds of trees will be planted around the "footprints".

[Link: www.national911memorial.org...]

94 webevintage  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:13:51am

re: #68 oriana fan

The terrorists have won? What do you think it is they want?

Not having the mosque built there is not a sign of intolerance, it is a sign of sensitivity.

Yes they win.
When Americans are willing freak out over a Mosque/Community Center (and Mosques being built around the country) they win.
They have forced us to react out of emotion and fear and bigotry.
I'm tied of this bullshit...

95 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:14:14am

re: #89 garhighway

And therefore you would have the right to veto whatever the owners chose to do with it? You would have some sort of property right?

Helluva leap there

Where did I say I would have ANY say over it

What I did say, is I would consider it my loved ones final resting place!

96 webevintage  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:15:36am

re: #88 sattv4u2

Heading into the vote, Democrats acknowledged it would be difficult to gather enough support to pass the bill under special rules requiring a two-thirds majority.

But Democrats were concerned that a simple majority vote would allow Republicans to propose a controversial amendment that seeks to deny 9/11 health benefits to illegal immigrants.

hmmm

That's what I said.....

97 webevintage  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:16:22am

re: #93 lawhawk

There will be a memorial park and hundreds of trees will be planted around the "footprints".

[Link: www.national911memorial.org...]

wow....that is beautiful....

98 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:16:30am

re: #91 darthstar

My preferred design was Norman Foster's kissing towers - it would have had the size and scope to memorialize the originals, and would have preserved more land around the two towers to dedicate to memorial space. The master plan chosen actually dedicates less open space than Foster's plan because to build office space back to anywhere near the original towers, they had to build more buildings along Church.

At this point, I'm just glad that the construction is underway and that they should have the memorial open for next year.

99 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:17:04am

re: #88 sattv4u2

Heading into the vote, Democrats acknowledged it would be difficult to gather enough support to pass the bill under special rules requiring a two-thirds majority.

But Democrats were concerned that a simple majority vote would allow Republicans to propose a controversial amendment that seeks to deny 9/11 health benefits to illegal immigrants.

hmmm

So if an illegal immigrant risked their life on 9-11 trying to save people, they should be denied health care benefits? These are human beings who risked their lives for others. I'm tired of illegals being made out to be less than human by people who don't like them.

100 garhighway  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:17:18am

re: #75 marjoriemoon

Actually, I'm in favor of nothing being there except a park. A place of reflection and contemplation. Even then it might be a little weird, but to put anything there - on the site itself - eventually people will forget what it is, 50, 100 years down the road.

There were 11 million square feet of very expensive office and retail space there. Making it into a park would have meant destroying the downtown NYC economy.

Leaving the actual footprints of the towers free for a memorial was a very reasonable compromise.

101 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:17:40am

re: #98 lawhawk

My preferred design was Norman Foster's kissing towers - it would have had the size and scope to memorialize the originals, and would have preserved more land around the two towers to dedicate to memorial space. The master plan chosen actually dedicates less open space than Foster's plan because to build office space back to anywhere near the original towers, they had to build more buildings along Church.

At this point, I'm just glad that the construction is underway and that they should have the memorial open for next year.

Nice, but I dunno. kinda doesn't "fit" architecturally, imho

102 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:17:41am

re: #97 webevintage

Note too that if you're looking at the site at street level, you'd be wondering what, if anything is being built. Very little of the memorial and museum are built at street level.

There's several hundred thousand square feet of space for the memorial and museum, but it's all below street level.

103 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:18:33am

re: #23 oriana fan

If these folks want to earn a place in american hearts they should announce they are moving their "community center" to another location along with a sizable donation to a fund that supports the families of 9/11.

Gee, what a coincidence. That's exactly what Pamela Geller is saying.

104 garhighway  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:18:54am

re: #95 sattv4u2

Helluva leap there

Where did I say I would have ANY say over it

What I did say, is I would consider it my loved ones final resting place!

OK. And as applied to this particular situation, what would you therefore want to do with the site?

105 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:19:01am

re: #101 sattv4u2

The original WTC wasn't particularly loved until after the towers were gone. Heck, it was often joked that the WTC were the boxes in which the Empire State Building and Chrysler building were taken from.

I liked 'em...

106 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:20:50am

On a personal level, I remember staying at the Marriott near the towers when I was 11 in the late 90's. My dad worked for Marriott at the time. Never thought for a million years that they would be gone.

107 garhighway  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:21:10am

re: #105 lawhawk

The original WTC wasn't particularly loved until after the towers were gone. Heck, it was often joked that the WTC were the boxes in which the Empire State Building and Chrysler building were taken from.

I liked 'em...

There was a documentary a few years ago ("Man on Wire", I think) that made the point that the towers weren't really accepted by New Yorkers until after the tightrope walker did his stunt.

But by the 90's they had become iconic.

108 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:21:17am

re: #23 oriana fan


If these folks want to earn a place in american hearts they should announce they are moving their "community center" to another location along with a sizable donation to a fund that supports the families of 9/11.

I will tell you how Real Americans honor the victims and their families: by spending billions of dollars on a war and occupation of a country that had nothing at all to do with 9/11!!!

109 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:21:19am

re: #105 lawhawk

The original WTC wasn't particularly loved until after the towers were gone. Heck, it was often joked that the WTC were the boxes in which the Empire State Building and Chrysler building were taken from.

I liked 'em...

Someone on the radio (sports talk) reminded me this morning about the Budweiser ads that aired shortly after 9/11 (I think it was during the next Super Bowl) where the Clydesdale's are seen leaving St Louis, going to New York and looking forlornly at where the WTC was

110 Donna Ballard  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:21:42am

Good Morning Everyone, Happy Monday to you all.

As I see it I'm of two minds about the project. One part of me is recoiling in post 9/11/01 fear, anger and disgust. The other part of me is saying good on you, build your Mosque I have now objections to a Mosque being built. I don't know how to reconcile these two contrasting feelings therefore I am doomed to being confused about just how I really feel. I still cry at the videos and pictures from that day and I have nightmares about it, but I also have friends that are Muslim and they are wonderful people and I do not blame them for what few nutcases that are zealots have done in the name of Islam. I truly do not know what to think about the whole thing and the controversy that has arisen over it. *sigh*

111 Ericus58  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:21:49am

re: #60 sattv4u2

And now,, the REST of the story (why the Repubs were against the bill )

Democrats used rules requiring a wider majority for approval to prevent Republicans from offering amendments on the floor that would embarrass Democrats in an election year.

"Still, many supporters of the legislation outside of Congress expressed bitter disappointment that House leaders did not allow a simple majority vote on the bill. In a statement afterward, Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg expressed outrage over the outcome and criticized both parties.

“It was wrong for the overwhelming majority of Republicans to vote against the bill,” he said, “and it was wrong for Democrats to bring the bill to the floor under rules that made passage so much more difficult.”"

112 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:22:17am

Besides the very clear legality of the situation:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. - US Constitution Amendment #1

There could be no better way to show radical Islam that they won't "break" the faith or spirit of Americans by allowing a group of Muslims to fully enjoy their 1st amendment rights anywhere they choose in the United States.

The issue of how radical or not this Imam is or what their motivations for having a mosque and community center near the World Trade Center site is not even relevant to their rights to do these things. The strip clubs and betting parlors are just more proof of these rights and how they apply to all Americans regardless of their views or even judgement.

113 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:22:41am

re: #107 garhighway

There was a documentary a few years ago ("Man on Wire", I think) that made the point that the towers weren't really accepted by New Yorkers until after the tightrope walker did his stunt.

But by the 90's they had become iconic.


Being from around Chicago, I always disliked the Twin Towers because they they were taller than the hancock Building, which the tallest building in the world until they were built.


But that was just a local patriot thing....

114 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:23:04am

re: #104 garhighway

OK. And as applied to this particular situation, what would you therefore want to do with the site?

I could care less

A memorial park would be nice

The Middle Finger Salute Office towers that LAWHAWK linked too would be cool

not my decision

All that stated, I would STILL consider it my loved ones final resting place if he'she were incinerated there OR skeletal remains were never found

115 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:23:25am

re: #110 Dragon_Lady

Good Morning Everyone, Happy Monday to you all.

As I see it I'm of two minds about the project. One part of me is recoiling in post 9/11/01 fear, anger and disgust. The other part of me is saying good on you, build your Mosque I have now objections to a Mosque being built. I don't know how to reconcile these two contrasting feelings therefore I am doomed to being confused about just how I really feel. I still cry at the videos and pictures from that day and I have nightmares about it, but I also have friends that are Muslim and they are wonderful people and I do not blame them for what few nutcases that are zealots have done in the name of Islam. I truly do not know what to think about the whole thing and the controversy that has arisen over it. *sigh*

I think you're letting the idiots get in your head a little too much (no, that's not meant as an insult :P). Do you feel the same way about the Pentagon mosque?

116 Lidanghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:24:12am

re: #94 webevintage

I'm tied of this bullshit.

I've been saying that for years.

Yes, the 9/11 attacks were tragic. Yes, I grieved for those who died so senselessly that day. I can remember being shaken and crying about it for weeks. HOWEVER, we can't let that grief or those emotions cloud our principles. And we can't let the cynical assholes on the right, like Fox News, or the anti-Muslim bigots like Pam Geller, keep exploiting that grief or those emotions for their own agenda.

We're coming up on nine years since those attacks. If we're still letting people manipulate our reactions to things because of 9/11, then yes, the wrong people win. I'd much rather see this country rise above those attacks and show both the anti-Muslim bigots and the assholes who attacked us that we're stronger than all that and that they can't use those images or those memories to make us cower to their agendas.

117 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:24:38am

re: #107 garhighway

That's very true. The towers took a long time before they became accepted - in part because of the size and scope of the complex. It just was absolutely massive. Before Battery Park City and the World Financial Center were built (on landfill from the excavations necessary to build the WTC btw), the Twin Towers were a hulking and imposing shape across Lower Manhattan. Even after the WFC was built, they were less than half as tall as the WTC. Only the Woolworth building came close (and still fell short by nearly 1,000 feet.

118 wrenchwench  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:24:47am

re: #110 Dragon_Lady

I truly do not know what to think about the whole thing and the controversy that has arisen over it.


It's simple. The proposed building has NOTHING to do with 9/11, except an accident of geography, and that's insignificant. If you think about September 11, 2001 when you think about this building project, you have been played by the bigots. Separate the two in your mind and proceed from there.

119 Lidanghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:25:24am

re: #110 Dragon_Lady

There's already a mosque INSIDE the Pentagon, and that was a 9/11 attack site. Should we dismantle it as well, or is the Pentagon somehow not hallowed ground while the WTC is?

120 webevintage  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:25:52am

re: #111 Ericus58

“It was wrong for the overwhelming majority of Republicans to vote against the bill,” he said, “and it was wrong for Democrats to bring the bill to the floor under rules that made passage so much more difficult.”"

I agree with him EXCEPT all the Republicans had to do was vote for the bill or agree to not add any amendments to the simple majority bill.
I'm glad the Dems forced the Republicans to show their true colors.
It was more important to them to make sure that loop hole was not closed and to deny benefits to folks injured on 9/11 who might be illegal then it is to get this money to the first responders who are ill now.

121 Donna Ballard  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:26:00am

re: #115 JasonA

I think you're letting the idiots get in your head a little too much (no, that's not meant as an insult :P). Do you feel the same way about the Pentagon mosque?

Yeah, I do have a tendency to be a little too emotional but um,,,PENTAGON Mosque??? Huh? Now I really am confused, or are you pulling my leg?

122 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:26:05am

re: #113 ralphieboy

I remember the King Kong movie poster from the 70's. The Jeff Bridges/Jessica Lane one.

Specifically...

I wondered if the artist had ever seen the buildings before making that poster... He'd have to be 90 stories tall to stand like that...

123 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:26:19am

re: #119 Lidane

There's already a mosque INSIDE the Pentagon, and that was a 9/11 attack site. Should we dismantle it as well, or is the Pentagon somehow not hallowed ground while the WTC is?

I'm surprised we haven't been lectured about that national security risk...

124 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:26:45am

re: #121 Dragon_Lady

Yeah, I do have a tendency to be a little too emotional but um,,,PENTAGON Mosque??? Huh? Now I really am confused, or are you pulling my leg?

[Link: www.salon.com...]

125 jaunte  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:28:09am

re: #123 JasonA

It's not tall enough to be 'mega.'

126 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:28:11am

re: #118 wrenchwench

It's simple. The proposed building has NOTHING to do with 9/11, except an accident of geography, and that's insignificant. If you think about September 11, 2001 when you think about this building project, you have been played by the bigots. Separate the two in your mind and proceed from there.


If you see the War on Terror as a war between the Christian West vs. Islam, then it is easy to see this project as a "triumph" for the "enemy"

But if you see the WOT as a struggle between enlightenment and fundamentalism, then there are no grounds to oppose it.

127 Donna Ballard  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:28:18am

re: #119 Lidane

There's already a mosque INSIDE the Pentagon, and that was a 9/11 attack site. Should we dismantle it as well, or is the Pentagon somehow not hallowed ground while the WTC is?

Who boy. Now there's a question I'll need to think about for a while. Let me get back to you on that in a while after I ruminate over it, okay?

128 garhighway  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:29:12am

re: #117 lawhawk

That's very true. The towers took a long time before they became accepted - in part because of the size and scope of the complex. It just was absolutely massive. Before Battery Park City and the World Financial Center were built (on landfill from the excavations necessary to build the WTC btw), the Twin Towers were a hulking and imposing shape across Lower Manhattan. Even after the WFC was built, they were less than half as tall as the WTC. Only the Woolworth building came close (and still fell short by nearly 1,000 feet.

The view from Windows on the World was unbelievable.

And when I got out of the subway in the morning, the east side of the WTC would be pink from the rising sun. It was the coolest-looking thing. It made me feel lucky to work and live here. I miss it, and I bitterly resent the bigots using it for their selfish purposes. Especially since the vast majority of the bigots don't give two shits and a damn about NYC in the first place.

129 Lidanghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:29:57am

re: #123 JasonA

I'm surprised we haven't been lectured about that national security risk...

It's being ignored because it's inconvenient. The bigots like to pretend that the Pentagon either wasn't attacked, or that the WTC is somehow hallowed ground while the Pentagon isn't, at least for the purposes of this Park51 project.

Notice how none of them have even mentioned it at all. They're talking about Ground Zero as if there's only one of them, when there are three-- the WTC, the Pentagon, and those fields in PA where the passengers brought the plane down.

130 webevintage  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:30:01am

gotta go get some work done....

131 Kragarghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:30:31am

re: #122 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I remember the King Kong movie poster from the 70's. The Jeff Bridges/Jessica Lane one.

Specifically...

I wondered if the artist had ever seen the buildings before making that poster... He'd have to be 90 stories tall to stand like that...

I think it was in that version.

132 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:30:33am

re: #104 garhighway

You seem to have this preconcieved notion that I am against the Park 51 project or any building in or around the site of the former WTC.

If you care too, go try to find a post where I am in opposition to either

I'll wait!

133 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:31:55am

re: #129 Lidane

It's being ignored because it's inconvenient. The bigots like to pretend that the Pentagon either wasn't attacked, or that the WTC is somehow hallowed ground while the Pentagon isn't, at least for the purposes of this Park51 project.

Notice how none of them have even mentioned it at all. They're talking about Ground Zero as if there's only one of them, when there are three-- the WTC, the Pentagon, and those fields in PA where the passengers brought the plane down.


It highlights the fact that opposition has nothing to do with rational argument, but rather emotionally charged ranting.

134 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:32:01am

re: #105 lawhawk

The original WTC wasn't particularly loved until after the towers were gone. Heck, it was often joked that the WTC were the boxes in which the Empire State Building and Chrysler building were taken from.

I liked 'em...

Every time I see old TV shows or movies with the towers in them (Trading Places, Escape from New York, etc.), I still get a little misty.

135 garhighway  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:32:14am

re: #132 sattv4u2

You seem to have this preconcieved notion that I am against the Park 51 project or any building in or around the site of the former WTC.

If you care too, go try to find a post where I am in opposition to either

I'll wait!

Your "you don't care" post did it for me.

Which begs the question of why you are still posting on the topic.

136 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:32:54am

re: #134 talon_262

Every time I see old TV shows or movies with the towers in them (Trading Places, Escape from New York, etc.), I still get a little misty.

ditto

AND [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

137 What, me worry?  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:33:08am

re: #98 lawhawk

My preferred design was Norman Foster's kissing towers - it would have had the size and scope to memorialize the originals, and would have preserved more land around the two towers to dedicate to memorial space. The master plan chosen actually dedicates less open space than Foster's plan because to build office space back to anywhere near the original towers, they had to build more buildings along Church.

At this point, I'm just glad that the construction is underway and that they should have the memorial open for next year.

Oh I like that very much. Very beautiful.

138 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:33:21am

re: #134 talon_262

Heck, Friends uses the Twin Towers in its transition shots.

139 Lidanghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:33:34am

re: #133 ralphieboy

It highlights the fact that opposition has nothing to do with rational argument, but rather emotionally charged ranting.

Exactly. It's not about the location at all. It's about the fact that it's a Muslim building. The cynics and the bigots want to keep exploiting the emotions that people felt over 9/11 to advance their anti-Muslim agenda. That's about it.

140 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:33:39am

re: #135 garhighway

Your "you don't care" post did it for me.

Which begs the question of why you are still posting on the topic.

All posts "on the topic" were in answer to questions by you!
Would you rather I ignore your questions?

141 RadicalModerate  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:33:47am

re: #59 Killgore Trout

Glenn Beck worries about Muslims breeding...

After stoking fears about Muslim birth rate, Beck says we're on "edge of the precipice," across which is "Dark Ages"

The Muslim Demographics video is, of course, old and bogus White Nationalist propaganda.

Once again, Glenn Beck needs to be introduced to a history book.

The Early Middle Ages (5th century-late 10th century) (also known as the first The Dark Ages) was a period in (mostly western) Europe where religious dogmatism (by the Catholic church, among other Christian denominations) squelched scientific research and artistic achievement, and suppressed free religious worship (in most cases, by penalty of death), as they were deemed to threaten the moral supremacy of church leadership.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

At roughly the same time (7th Century-13th Century), over in Eastern Europe and most of what is now considered the Middle East, Muslims were participating in what was considered one of the great ages of civilization, the Islamic Golden Age.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Quoting from the Wiki, because this section is REALLY important:

Many medieval Muslim thinkers pursued humanistic, rational and scientific discourses in their search for knowledge, meaning and values. A wide range of Islamic writings on love, poetry, history and philosophical theology show that medieval Islamic thought was open to the humanistic ideas of individualism, occasional secularism, skepticism and liberalism.[9][10]

Religious freedom, though society was still controlled under Islamic values, helped create cross-cultural networks by attracting Muslim, Christian and Jewish intellectuals and thereby helped spawn the greatest period of philosophical creativity in the Middle Ages from the 8th to 13th centuries.[4] Another reason the Islamic world flourished during this period was an early emphasis on freedom of speech, as summarized by al-Hashimi (a cousin of Caliph al-Ma'mun) in the following letter to one of the religious opponents he was attempting to convert through reason:

"Bring forward all the arguments you wish and say whatever you please and speak your mind freely. Now that you are safe and free to say whatever you please appoint some arbitrator who will impartially judge between us and lean only towards the truth and be free from the empary of passion, and that arbitrator shall be Reason, whereby God makes us responsible for our own rewards and punishments. Herein I have dealt justly with you and have given you full security and am ready to accept whatever decision Reason may give for me or against me. For "There is no compulsion in religion" (Qur'an 2:256) and I have only invited you to accept our faith willingly and of your own accord and have pointed out the hideousness of your present belief. Peace be upon you and the blessings of God!"


After the fall of Bagdhad in the 13th Century, came what is now called the Late Middle Ages (13th Century-15th Century) which were noted for famine, plague and further persecution of non-Christians - a period that plunged Europe into what is considered the Great Dark Age - and stayed that way until the Renaissance finally brought religious, artistic and scientific reforms.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

142 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:34:04am

Do you all remember that after 9-11 it was a little taboo to show the towers in scenes with New York in it? One of my favorite bit of cinematography is the end scene of Martin Scorsese's Gangs of New York. It shows the New York skyline from the end of the Civil War in to the present and at the end there is the twin towers. One of my favorite Simpsons episodes takes place in New York.

143 What, me worry?  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:34:06am

re: #100 garhighway

There were 11 million square feet of very expensive office and retail space there. Making it into a park would have meant destroying the downtown NYC economy.

Leaving the actual footprints of the towers free for a memorial was a very reasonable compromise.

I'm confused. They ARE planning a park there, from what Lawhawk said.

144 Randall Gross  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:34:11am

These same people would screeeeeeeeEEEECCHHHH to the highest heavens if you condemned all Irish Catholics because of the work of the IRA.

145 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:34:23am

re: #8 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Caught Rush this morning coming in. He was arguing that anything even touched by debris should be considered "hallowed ground."

What does 'hallowed ground' mean? Should we take our shoes off?

146 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:34:55am

re: #138 lawhawk

Heck, Friends uses the Twin Towers in its transition shots.

NYPD Blue

1st season or two of The Sopranos

147 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:35:17am

re: #122 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I remember the King Kong movie poster from the 70's. The Jeff Bridges/Jessica Lane one.

Specifically...

I wondered if the artist had ever seen the buildings before making that poster... He'd have to be 90 stories tall to stand like that...

What gets me is the caption on the picture... "The most exciting original motion picture event of all time"... It's a remake, dagnabbit!

148 Kragarghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:35:21am

Rand Paul: Keep EPA out of Ky. affairs

Republican Senate candidate Rand Paul took harsh digs at President Barack Obama while mining for votes in Kentucky coalfields Saturday, saying busybody regulators backed by the president are stifling the coal sector.

Paul vowed to challenge Obama "every step of the way" if elected in November, seeking to capitalize on a political environment where flocks of voters have never warmed to the Democratic president.

The Tea Party-backed Paul never mentioned his Democratic opponent, Jack Conway, in his speech at a coal appreciation event in Knott County, instead reserving his attacks for Obama, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and federal environmental regulators.

We now return to the Tea Party's from all over the country telling New York local government what to do.

149 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:35:33am

re: #143 marjoriemoon

I'm confused. They ARE planning a park there, from what Lawhawk said.

in addition to new office towers

150 garhighway  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:35:42am

re: #143 marjoriemoon

I'm confused. They ARE planning a park there, from what Lawhawk said.

They shoehorned a memorial and park into the footprints of the actual towers and are building the new stuff on the rest of the site, which is much larger than that footprint.

151 palomino  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:35:47am

re: #21 webevintage

I disagree.
If ElizaJane is right then the people who live in Manhattan proper do. not. care.
They want it built.
There might be one or two protests at the beginning, but after awhile most people will forget and the rest will wonder what the fuss was all about while they are swimming in the pool or bringing their kids there for a playgroup.

Good point. Once it becomes clear that Cordoba House isn't going to destroy American values, then hopefully most people will have the same reaction they've had to gay marriage: Basically "what's the big deal and why were we so afraid?"

152 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:35:49am

re: #146 sattv4u2

NYPD Blue

1st season or two of The Sopranos

Barney Miller, too (IIRC)...

153 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:36:27am

re: #131 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Nah... there's a scene in the movie where he jumps from one to the other... he jumped a loooong way.

They made a toy to about the same scale though.

154 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:36:27am

re: #152 talon_262

Barney Miller, too (IIRC)...

yes,, absolutley

155 Donna Ballard  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:36:29am

re: #118 wrenchwench

It's simple. The proposed building has NOTHING to do with 9/11, except an accident of geography, and that's insignificant. If you think about September 11, 2001 when you think about this building project, you have been played by the bigots. Separate the two in your mind and proceed from there.

You're right of course, but the echos of 9/11 still rattle around in my head and they're hard to silence. I was in shock for so long that when I finally flew in 2003 for the first time since 9/11 I came real close to breaking down into hysteria. By the skin of my teeth I controlled the panic and kept myself together, it was a terrifying thing to realize that I still had such feelings of fear and that I had repressed them for so long.

156 garhighway  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:37:25am

re: #140 sattv4u2

All posts "on the topic" were in answer to questions by you!
Would you rather I ignore your questions?

I was done after your 114.

You seem to want to re-engage.

Do what you want.

157 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:37:34am

re: #16 marjoriemoon

The REAL question is... are any of those places owned by Muslims?

The strip club
Burger King
Off track betting
Shop after shop after shop

I think this should be the shrieking harpy's new mission. Find every Muslim owned business in Manhattan and stand outside and rant.

Eh, no one would pay attention. NYers are used to weird ranting people anyway.

"Hey, Aziz, how are things going?"

"Eh, so-so. It's our week to have Pam Geller outside."

158 Lidanghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:37:42am

re: #144 Thanos

These same people would screeeEEECCHHH to the highest heavens if you condemned all Irish Catholics because of the work of the IRA.

Or if you condemned all Protestants and evangelicals because of the assholes who shoot abortion doctors and bomb clinics.

But of course, Muslims aren't Real Murikans, so it's okay to smear them as a single hive mind. ///

159 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:39:19am
160 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:39:42am

re: #23 oriana fan

Likewise, I am still waiting for all the arab speaking volunteers to flock to the FBI and CIA to help our govt digest the raw intelligence that is gathered.

oriana fan.

I know some of those people. I know a kid who put his career plans on hold to help out, because he read Arabic, and his country needed help. I also remember that lots of native Jewish Arabic speakers got turned away from the FBI when they tried to volunteer, and I am pretty damn sure that it's not just as easy as walking in the door, pace Mrs. Pollifax.

Now, any other demands you want to make before American Muslims get equal rights? A back rub? Margarita?

161 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:40:08am

re: #156 garhighway

#132 was just a continuation of the whole

It just dawned on me at that time that your intent was to try to paint me into the anti-Mosque corner

162 What, me worry?  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:40:32am

re: #155 Dragon_Lady

You're right of course, but the echos of 9/11 still rattle around in my head and they're hard to silence. I was in shock for so long that when I finally flew in 2003 for the first time since 9/11 I came real close to breaking down into hysteria. By the skin of my teeth I controlled the panic and kept myself together, it was a terrifying thing to realize that I still had such feelings of fear and that I had repressed them for so long.

Flying while intoxicated really does help a great deal. Never drank on a plane until after 9/11. Really takes the edge off!

163 wrenchwench  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:40:41am

re: #155 Dragon_Lady

You're right of course, but the echos of 9/11 still rattle around in my head and they're hard to silence. I was in shock for so long that when I finally flew in 2003 for the first time since 9/11 I came real close to breaking down into hysteria. By the skin of my teeth I controlled the panic and kept myself together, it was a terrifying thing to realize that I still had such feelings of fear and that I had repressed them for so long.

Understandable. But keep it separate from what you think of this project. Keep it separate from what you think of Muslims in general. For a lot of Americans, 9/11 was their introduction to Islam, because they never thought about it before, and it was said to be behind the attacks. That almost indelibly combined a terrorist attack with a religion in some people's minds. They have to be separated to see what's real about terrorism, as well as what's real about Islam.

164 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:41:02am

re: #29 Claire

If it were proposed to be built right smack-dab in the center of the footprint of one of the towers, in some retail space, still with the 11 story Moorish filigree facade, etc, would the basic argument here change?

Mine wouldn't. I consider a mosque on that space less grotesque than opening more business offices. At least people will be praying there.

(I still want the footprint to be turned into a memorial park.)

165 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:41:50am

re: #162 marjoriemoon

Flying while intoxicated really does help a great deal. Never drank on a plane until after 9/11. Really takes the edge off!

I pray you're not a pilot !!

166 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:41:52am

re: #32 Alouette

Wasn't there already an underground mall beneath the Twin Towers? I seem to remember a number of people escaping to safety through the mall.

There was a parking garage down there, I know that much.

167 Donna Ballard  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:42:33am

re: #162 marjoriemoon

Flying while intoxicated really does help a great deal. Never drank on a plane until after 9/11. Really takes the edge off!

We had just started moving for take off when the panic started to swell and almost took me over. I NEVER EVER want to feel that way again! I didn't sleep well for days afterward.

168 garhighway  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:42:48am

re: #161 sattv4u2

#132 was just a continuation of the whole

It just dawned on me at that time that your intent was to try to paint me into the anti-Mosque corner

Actually, I thought you were signing up for the "it's a graveyard, no one should build anything there" corner, but you have cleared that up. You don't care.

169 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:42:51am

re: #164 SanFranciscoZionist

It is. Or at least a reasonable facsimile of the footprints will be memorial and museum space. The original footprints and the memorial footprints don't completely match up.

170 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:43:21am

re: #46 sattv4u2

On that I have to disagree

There are body parts (and even entire bodies) that have never been recovered and/ or were incinerated there

I know if I had e relative that that happened too, i would consider it their grave!

This gets into the ghoulish, but haven't they removed most of the debris, human remains included?

171 brownbagj  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:43:28am

re: #160 SanFranciscoZionist

What if I were already for them having equal rights? Do I still get a back rub?

If not, the offer seems unfair.

/

172 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:43:51am

re: #168 garhighway

Actually, I thought you were signing up for the "it's a graveyard, no one should build anything there" corner, but you have cleared that up. You don't care.

Ahh ,, well ,, next time you jump to a conclusion, make sure you at least pack a parachute

173 Kragarghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:44:46am

Where do they come up with morons like this?

Prop 8 ruling could criminalize Christianity

Mathew Staver, dean of the Liberty University Law School and chairman of the social conservative group Liberty Counsel, says a ruling that struck down California's gay marriage ban could criminalize Christianity.

In remarks to the Christian website CNS News, Staver said if the ruling, which found Proposition 8 violated the U.S. Constitution, was upheld by a higher court, then it would mean the criminalization of Christian beliefs.

“It's an astounding statement by a judge, and if that finding were to be upheld, it would criminalize Christian beliefs, because the Bible and Christian beliefs historically have clearly indicated that homosexuality is sex outside of marriage – and is contrary to God's design,” he said.

“For this judge to say that Christian beliefs or religious beliefs contrary to homosexuality are actually harmful – what that essentially says is, that if that's the case, then you've got to change your religious beliefs, and if you don't, you're going to be penalized as result. That is a very dangerous aspect of this court decision.”

The only danger I see hear is this fucknut is a dean of a law school.

174 palomino  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:44:53am

re: #59 Killgore Trout

Glenn Beck worries about Muslims breeding...

After stoking fears about Muslim birth rate, Beck says we're on "edge of the precipice," across which is "Dark Ages"

The Muslim Demographics video is, of course, old and bogus White Nationalist propaganda.

On demographics, Muslims are only 1.5% of the US population. They are in no position to dominate America any time in the next 10 generations. Furthermore, there aren't really many non-Muslims converting to Islam.

Maybe Beck got Muslims mixed up with Mexicans. In terms of numbers, they're the group his ilk of haters should really fear.

175 What, me worry?  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:45:00am

re: #165 sattv4u2

I pray you're not a pilot !!

::hic::: what's it to ya?

176 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:45:07am

re: #160 SanFranciscoZionist

I also remember that lots of native Jewish Arabic speakers got turned away from the FBI when they tried to volunteer, and I am pretty damn sure that it's not just as easy as walking in the door, pace Mrs. Pollifax.

...to say nothing of Arabic translators booted out of the army due to DADT. "You make it legal to torture someone during interrogation, then fire the guy who can understand what he's saying!" /Jon Stewart

177 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:45:15am

re: #162 marjoriemoon

Flying while intoxicated really does help a great deal. Never drank on a plane until after 9/11. Really takes the edge off!

Quite a few do that. Heh, why else serve booze on an 8:00 am flight? Or get a one or two pill Valium scrip from your doc for the flight.

178 jaunte  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:45:25am

re: #8 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Caught Rush this morning coming in. He was arguing that anything even touched by debris should be considered "hallowed ground."

You know, the really peculiar thing about that is the implication that he would support an eminent domain seizure of private property.

179 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:45:28am

re: #127 Dragon_Lady

Who boy. Now there's a question I'll need to think about for a while. Let me get back to you on that in a while after I ruminate over it, okay?

While you're thinking about that, you might also want to contemplate this.

Personally I found the official branding of the site itself as a Christian shrine to be far more objectionable than a Sufi prayer room in a community center to be built on land that they own & have the rights to.

180 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:46:01am

re: #68 oriana fan

The terrorists have won? What do you think it is they want?

Not having the mosque built there is not a sign of intolerance, it is a sign of sensitivity.

The terrorists, if there's any point in speaking of them as though they were some corporate entity, desperately want us to abandon our beliefs in freedom and equality, and fight amongst ourselves. Turning on American Muslims is a special bonus.

181 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:46:17am

re: #170 SanFranciscoZionist

This gets into the ghoulish, but haven't they removed most of the debris, human remains included?

Yes,,, most ,, but not all. As LAWHAWK stated, they are still to this day finding bits of bone here or there. And as I stated, I was also considering the people that were totally incinerated

IF that had been one of my loved ones, I would to this day consider the WTC site their final resting grounds

NOT that I would oppose any building there, commercial, memorial, religious or otherwise. It's just how I would think of it

182 Randall Gross  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:46:21am

Two churches directly across from the worst christian terrorist attack in this country

[Link: maps.google.com...]

183 Kragarghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:47:11am

re: #170 SanFranciscoZionist

This gets into the ghoulish, but haven't they removed most of the debris, human remains included?

If you really want to get down to it, there are probably remains left after any violent death that can't get removed due to the size and cause of death. Blood spatter, fragmentation, vaporization, etc.

184 garhighway  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:48:00am

re: #173 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Where do they come up with morons like this?

Prop 8 ruling could criminalize Christianity

The only danger I see hear is this fucknut is a dean of a law school.

The Prop 8 side of that argument seems to specialize in attracting bad lawyers who do bad lawyering.

They badly bungled the trial in front of Judge Walker, and they continue to spout nonsense. It's as if they don't get the difference between lawyering and spin.

I get that they were unlikely to find two lawyers as good as Olsen and Boies, but there are lots and lots of good ones out there.

185 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:48:26am

re: #175 marjoriemoon

::hic::: what's it to ya?

"Honey,,, call Hertz,,,we'll be driving to Europe!!"

186 Kragarghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:48:35am

re: #178 jaunte

You know, the really peculiar thing about that is the implication that he would support an eminent domain seizure of private property.

They're all about local rights and freedom until someone does something they don't like.

187 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:49:16am

re: #173 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Where do they come up with morons like this?

Prop 8 ruling could criminalize Christianity

The only danger I see hear is this fucknut is a dean of a law school.

Yeah that's exactly what it would do. Seriously this wouldn't wonder worry me if it was some random nut on the streets but this fucknut as you put it kindly is the dean of a law school.

188 RadicalModerate  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:50:23am

re: #173 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Where do they come up with morons like this?

Prop 8 ruling could criminalize Christianity

The only danger I see hear is this fucknut is a dean of a law school.

Well, it is Jerry Fallwell Liberty University, and is considered Fourth Tier, so take that for what you may.

189 wrenchwench  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:50:30am

re: #173 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Where do they come up with morons like this?

Prop 8 ruling could criminalize Christianity

The only danger I see hear is this fucknut is a dean of a law school.

Not just any law school:

The law school's founding Dean, Bruce Green, was committed to providing an excellent legal education and exposing students to natural law, a view of the law grounded in the Western legal tradition. The current Dean is Mathew D. Staver, who is also founder and Chairman of the Liberty Counsel (which is not officially affiliated with the law school). The School of Law is committed to expanding from an Evangelical Christian intellectual tradition in order to form an educational environment that effectively leads its students to the truth about law. Law professors at Liberty defend an Evangelical Christian intellectual tradition that has developed over time into the idea of law as a corpus juris, a “body of law.”
190 What, me worry?  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:50:54am

re: #167 Dragon_Lady

We had just started moving for take off when the panic started to swell and almost took me over. I NEVER EVER want to feel that way again! I didn't sleep well for days afterward.

We go visit my family once a year either out west or the N.E. so we haven't been able to avoid flying.

Hubby's scariest flight was when the plane dropped about 3000 feet. Straight down. That really wigged him out. He calls it the "sphincter tightener." And then we laugh.

I feel sorry for hubby cuz when I get drunk he has to guide my ass around when we're switching planes. Poor dear.

While intoxicated, I think, "What if something happens where I should have my wits about me?" And the next thought is, "Screw that!" and I ring the buzzer for a refill.

191 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:51:00am

re: #99 HappyWarrior

So if an illegal immigrant risked their life on 9-11 trying to save people, they should be denied health care benefits? These are human beings who risked their lives for others. I'm tired of illegals being made out to be less than human by people who don't like them.

Yeah. You were in New York that day, I pretty much figure you get citizenship.

There's jus solis, jus sanguinis, and baptism by fire.

192 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:51:56am

re: #110 Dragon_Lady

Good Morning Everyone, Happy Monday to you all.

As I see it I'm of two minds about the project. One part of me is recoiling in post 9/11/01 fear, anger and disgust. The other part of me is saying good on you, build your Mosque I have now objections to a Mosque being built. I don't know how to reconcile these two contrasting feelings therefore I am doomed to being confused about just how I really feel. I still cry at the videos and pictures from that day and I have nightmares about it, but I also have friends that are Muslim and they are wonderful people and I do not blame them for what few nutcases that are zealots have done in the name of Islam. I truly do not know what to think about the whole thing and the controversy that has arisen over it. *sigh*

Complicated, ain't it?

193 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:52:59am

re: #121 Dragon_Lady

Yeah, I do have a tendency to be a little too emotional but um,,,PENTAGON Mosque??? Huh? Now I really am confused, or are you pulling my leg?

More like a chapel for Muslim military personnel, but yes, they've got one in there. It's a big complex.

194 What, me worry?  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:53:11am

re: #180 SanFranciscoZionist

The terrorists, if there's any point in speaking of them as though they were some corporate entity, desperately want us to abandon our beliefs in freedom and equality, and fight amongst ourselves. Turning on American Muslims is a special bonus.

I just had this image of Stripper Terrorists, Gambling Terrorists and Burger King Terrorists hijacking planes.

Ok, I know we aren't supposed to laugh at these things, but WHAT IF?

195 Kragarghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:53:18am

re: #188 RadicalModerate

Well, it is Jerry Fallwell Liberty University, and is considered Fourth Tier, so take that for what you may.

Remember a time when being a Christian organization didn't revolve around being bat-shit fucking insane and willfully ignorant?

Aquinas would be beating the shit out of these people if he were alive today.

196 palomino  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:54:22am

re: #68 oriana fan

The terrorists have won? What do you think it is they want?

Not having the mosque built there is not a sign of intolerance, it is a sign of sensitivity.

With respect to people like you, yeah, the terrorists have won. They've not only scared you shitless, they've motivated you to support the revocation of basic civil rights. Worst of all, they've caused folks like you to erroneously conflate groups like al-Qaeda with all of Islam, which is one of their goals.

Mosques already exist in lower Manhattan. Maybe we should have them torn down? And the hysteria of your fellow mosque opponents has led to fervent opposition to new mosques in TN, TX, CA, and CT, none of which have 9/11 "hallowed ground." Your side is unleashing something dangerous, or at least dangerously stupid.

197 Donna Ballard  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:54:37am

re: #192 SanFranciscoZionist

Complicated, ain't it?

My Friend, that is an understatement if I've ever heard one!

198 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:55:14am

re: #129 Lidane

It's being ignored because it's inconvenient. The bigots like to pretend that the Pentagon either wasn't attacked, or that the WTC is somehow hallowed ground while the Pentagon isn't, at least for the purposes of this Park51 project.

Notice how none of them have even mentioned it at all. They're talking about Ground Zero as if there's only one of them, when there are three-- the WTC, the Pentagon, and those fields in PA where the passengers brought the plane down.

Well, part of it is that they know they really have NO influence on the Pentagon. The Pentagon will do what it deems appropriate, and more civilian activists won't even be noticed in the mob that's been out front the door for decades.

199 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:55:25am

re: #167 Dragon_Lady

We had just started moving for take off when the panic started to swell and almost took me over. I NEVER EVER want to feel that way again! I didn't sleep well for days afterward.

That's how I feel every time I have to fly.

I start babbling to anyone and everyone, and don't stop 'til we're back on the ground. I'm a miserable companion to fly with.

200 What, me worry?  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:55:44am

re: #198 SanFranciscoZionist

Btw, did you start school today or next week?

201 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:57:09am

re: #142 HappyWarrior

Do you all remember that after 9-11 it was a little taboo to show the towers in scenes with New York in it? One of my favorite bit of cinematography is the end scene of Martin Scorsese's Gangs of New York. It shows the New York skyline from the end of the Civil War in to the present and at the end there is the twin towers. One of my favorite Simpsons episodes takes place in New York.

One of my friends says the thing she is most happy about about a trip to New York in the 90s is that she went up to the viewing deck or whatever on top of one of the towers. She says at the time it was just another view experience, but it's very important to her now.

202 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:57:17am

re: #191 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah. You were in New York that day, I pretty much figure you get citizenship.

There's jus solis, jus sanguinis, and baptism by fire.

Seriously the way these congressional Republicans talk about illegals, they act as if they're not even humans. It's insulting. One of my distant relatives who died serving in the Marines in WWII wasn't a U.S citizen. Yet the guys who served under him felt he was the best Marine they ever knew.

203 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:57:36am

re: #199 reine.de.tout

That's how I feel every time I have to fly.

I start babbling to anyone and everyone, and don't stop 'til we're back on the ground. I'm a miserable companion to fly with.

NOTE TO SELF

Find out when Reine is taking a flight, and make sure i'm DRIVING somewhere that day!

204 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:58:03am

re: #179 goddamnedfrank

While you're thinking about that, you might also want to contemplate this.

Personally I found the official branding of the site itself as a Christian shrine to be far more objectionable than a Sufi prayer room in a community center to be built on land that they own & have the rights to.

That is interesting...

205 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:59:47am

re: #163 wrenchwench

Understandable. But keep it separate from what you think of this project. Keep it separate from what you think of Muslims in general. For a lot of Americans, 9/11 was their introduction to Islam, because they never thought about it before, and it was said to be behind the attacks. That almost indelibly combined a terrorist attack with a religion in some people's minds. They have to be separated to see what's real about terrorism, as well as what's real about Islam.

You really hit it on the head there, and for many there is no difference between Islam and Islamism

206 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:59:54am

re: #162 marjoriemoon

Flying while intoxicated really does help a great deal. Never drank on a plane until after 9/11. Really takes the edge off!

I am absolutely paranoid about flying, but oddly, 9/11 had no impact. Dunno why. I guess if you plan your own death for about a week before every flight anyway, a major terror attack isn't enough to amp it up considerably.

207 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:00:24pm

re: #204 Rightwingconspirator

That is interesting...

The title is a little misleading. A cross wasn't built, what looked like a cross was what was left

Following the attacks, a massive operation was launched to clear the site and attempt to find any survivors amongst the rubble. On September 13 one of the workers at the site, Frank Silecchia discovered a 20 feet (6.1 m)[5] cross of two steel beams amongst the debris of 6 World Trade Center

208 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:00:47pm

re: #171 brownbagj

What if I were already for them having equal rights? Do I still get a back rub?

If not, the offer seems unfair.

/

OK, you also get a back rub. Back rubs for everyone!!

209 Donna Ballard  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:00:56pm

re: #199 reine.de.tout

That's how I feel every time I have to fly.

I start babbling to anyone and everyone, and don't stop 'til we're back on the ground. I'm a miserable companion to fly with.

We should fly together sometime! We could both hold on to each other and be miserably afraid together! :P

Actually I've flown since then and its much better, seems once I got past that one time the fear abated. Now if I could just get past my very real fear of heights! That was a big part of my reaction I'll bet. RWC has been working real hard with me to get past that stupid phobia of mine, he loves heights and I'm a bit of a drag on his enthusiasm when it comes to traveling together.

210 Randall Gross  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:00:57pm

Sensitivity my ass.

211 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:01:40pm

re: #173 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Where do they come up with morons like this?

Prop 8 ruling could criminalize Christianity

The only danger I see hear is this fucknut is a dean of a law school.

They keep trying with this one, and it's the most astonishing bullshit.

Your freedom to have a belief is not contingent on the state making everyone else adhere to it, folks!!!

212 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:02:15pm

re: #173 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Where do they come up with morons like this?

Prop 8 ruling could criminalize Christianity


The only danger I see hear is this fucknut is a dean of a law school.


It will interfere with their ability to impose their beliefs on other people, which they would necessarily see as a bad thing.

213 What, me worry?  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:02:45pm

re: #60 sattv4u2

And now,, the REST of the story (why the Repubs were against the bill )

Democrats used rules requiring a wider majority for approval to prevent Republicans from offering amendments on the floor that would embarrass Democrats in an election year.

Sorry I missed this:

That still doesn't change the numbers. An overwhelming amount of Republicans voted against it.

In the end, 243 Democrats and 12 Republicans supported the measure; 155 Republicans and 4 Democrats opposed it.

Republican opponents of the legislation expressed concern over the $7.4 billion cost of the program.

Don't ask the Republicans for help when it comes to those who actually need it. They're too busy lobbying so that we don't tax the wealthy.

214 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:03:25pm

re: #176 publicityStunted

...to say nothing of Arabic translators booted out of the army due to DADT. "You make it legal to torture someone during interrogation, then fire the guy who can understand what he's saying!" /Jon Stewart

OK, hilarious moment. I was talking to a friend of mine, a Marine officer, about the difficulty of doing parents conferences with a translator, and making it feel as though the parent and I are the ones conferring. He said "I've found sometimes it's effective if the translator sits behind the subject."

It took me a second to process that. Then I said "You do understand that when I interview people, they have the option of walking out of the room, right?"

215 webevintage  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:04:13pm

re: #160 SanFranciscoZionist


Now, any other demands you want to make before American Muslims get equal rights? A back rub? Margarita?

The comment you replied to kind of echoes the column from Ross Douchehat...I Douthat today:
[Link: json8.nytimes.com...]

216 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:05:55pm

re: #213 marjoriemoon

Sorry I missed this:

That still doesn't change the numbers. An overwhelming amount of Republicans voted against it.

Don't ask the Republicans for help when it comes to those who actually need it. They're too busy lobbying so that we don't tax the wealthy.

4 Democrats opposed it.

Whats their excuse!?!?

217 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:07:35pm

re: #200 marjoriemoon

Btw, did you start school today or next week?

Today, but the kids don't come until next Wednesday. I'm about to head over and start hanging paper.

218 What, me worry?  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:09:13pm

re: #216 sattv4u2

4 Democrats opposed it.

Whats their excuse!?!?

Satt, I like you mostly but really, now you're just being an idiot.

219 webevintage  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:09:57pm

re: #213 marjoriemoon

Sorry I missed this:

That still doesn't change the numbers. An overwhelming amount of Republicans voted against it.
Republican opponents of the legislation expressed concern over the $7.4 billion cost of the program.
Don't ask the Republicans for help when it comes to those who actually need it. They're too busy lobbying so that we don't tax the wealthy.

Which in the end was a BS concern since the program is paid for. Of course how it is paid for was one of the items the Republicans wanted to do away with though the use of an amendment.
The GOP is full of shit.
They hail firemen and policemen as heros when discussing 9/11 or the Mosque but then call them a "special interest" when it comes to helping states pay for them or use a procedure as an excuse to keep from voting yea to help them with their health issues.
They whine about the deficit but have no fucking problem with the deficit's growth if that growth will be fueled by making sure the tax cuts for the top 2% earners in this country does not expire.
(and remember the Dems and the President only want the cut to expire for the 2% while allowing those making under $300,00ish to keep the tax cut.)

220 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:10:18pm

re: #218 marjoriemoon

Satt, I like you mostly but really, now you're just being an idiot.

TRANSLATION ,,, ooppss!!

221 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:10:22pm

OK, I'm outta here. See you guys tonight.

222 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:11:40pm

re: #221 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, I'm outta here. See you guys tonight.

keep the door open, I'm right behind you

dern work interfering with my LGF time

223 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:12:19pm

re: #207 sattv4u2

The title is a little misleading. A cross wasn't built, what looked like a cross was what was left

... and then placed on a special built, raised pedestal, converting a small piece of the WTC's skeletal corpse into an official Christian symbol. Nobody said it was a special built cross, but when Giuliani personally expedited its placement on that platform at ground zero, the intent to brand the site itself as a christian shrine is difficult to ignore. So the title isn't at all misleading.

224 Donna Ballard  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:12:57pm

re: #221 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, I'm outta here. See you guys tonight.

Bye SFV, thanks for the moral support! Have a great day!

225 Donna Ballard  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:14:15pm

re: #224 Dragon_Lady

Bye SFV, thanks for the moral support! Have a great day!

PIMF!!! SFZ! Sorry! :(

226 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:15:11pm

re: #216 sattv4u2

4 Democrats opposed it.

Whats their excuse!?!?

Magical Balance Fairy strikes again.

227 What, me worry?  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:16:41pm

re: #219 webevintage

Which in the end was a BS concern since the program is paid for. Of course how it is paid for was one of the items the Republicans wanted to do away with though the use of an amendment.
The GOP is full of shit.
They hail firemen and policemen as heros when discussing 9/11 or the Mosque but then call them a "special interest" when it comes to helping states pay for them or use a procedure as an excuse to keep from voting yea to help them with their health issues.
They whine about the deficit but have no fucking problem with the deficit's growth if that growth will be fueled by making sure the tax cuts for the top 2% earners in this country does not expire.
(and remember the Dems and the President only want the cut to expire for the 2% while allowing those making under $300,00ish to keep the tax cut.)

Exactly my problem. When they have to put their money where their mouths are, then the patriotism isn't all that important. A lot easier to rant and rave about scared ground and 9/11 or sing a catchy Alan Jackson tune.

228 Donna Ballard  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:20:26pm

Well, my fellow Lizards I'm going to go rest some more. That 4 mile hike RWC and I went on over the weekend has sapped all of my spare energy and I need to recharge! Keep Laughing Everyone!

229 cliffster  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:20:29pm

re: #225 Dragon_Lady

PIMF!!! SFZ! Sorry! :(

San Fransisco Vampire!! Slluuurrp!

230 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:28:38pm

re: #23 oriana fan

Likewise, I am still waiting for all the arab speaking volunteers to flock to the FBI and CIA to help our govt digest the raw intelligence that is gathered.

Anecdote: I used to work with a guy (before 9/11) who grew up in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, where he went to British-run schools and learned flawless English to go with his native Arabic. If you had just met him, you wouldn't have the slightest clue that he hadn't lived in Texas his entire life. In fact, when people would ask him where he grew up, he usually said "back East". Tee hee. Anyway, he specifically applied to become a translator for the FBI, but was turned down, apparently because he didn't meet the education requirements (he was in his 1st or 2nd year of college at the time). The FBI must not be hurting too badly, because even after 9/11 he couldn't get anyone at the FBI to return his calls. Now he works in Silicon Valley somewhere and collects Italian motorcycles.

231 harlequinade  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 12:59:37pm

re: #88 sattv4u2

"Give me your tired, your poor/Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free
Unless they're brown. Or non-Christian. Then they can bugger off and die somewhere else for all I care."

I've always loved that poem./

232 Food Lion  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 1:11:32pm

re: #31 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm waiting for Catholics to come clean on decades of child abuse and Evangelicals to apologize for harrassing, assaulting and killing doctors.

So am I. Muslims, Catholics and Evangelicals all have some apologizing to do.

233 oriana fan  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 1:40:22pm

I am no Geller acolyte or apologist.

To reiterate, I am not opposed to the center, I would just like to see it elsewhere. I am also not as sanguine as the rest of you about the goals of those who want to build this center. Its leader, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf may not be a member of the Taliban, but he is far short of a model of tolerance. Here are real quotes:

US Caused 9/11
On 60 minutes Rauf said: "United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened (on 9/11)...Because we have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world."

He reiterated later, "in fact, in the most direct sense, Obama bin Laden is made in the USA."

Terrorism is the natural reaction to US Policies:

"The U.S. must acknowledge the harm they have done to Muslims before terrorism can end."
"Islamic terrorists do not come from another moral universe… they arise from oppressive societies that he feels Washington had a hand in creating."

On his refusal to criticize Hamas:

"I'm not a politician. I try to avoid the issues. The issue of terrorism is a very complex question. I'm a bridge builder. I do not want to be placed in a position where I am the target of one side or the other."

These statements match the sentiments of CAIR, the unindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land Foundation case. Worst yet, he is purported to be a man of G-d, yet he cannot find the words to condemn terrorism because it is "complex".

As for the source of funds, if it is to be 100% raised in the US, please provide your sources.

What would satisfy me? A statement as follows: As an American Muslim, I am horrified by the acts taken in the name of my faith. As I leader of my community, I encourage all of our members to assist our government in making sure that such an act can never happen again in our names. Further, we must vocally disassociate from any movement that uses terror. Likewise, we call on those nations who self-identify as Muslim societies to respect the religious rights of others as well as to promote and encourage the growth of a civil society where all citizens have equal rights and standing.

Don’t hold your breath.

234 oriana fan  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 1:42:33pm

re: #230 negativ
I will verify the information. There was an article that mentioned the shortage. Please note, however, the FBI also refused to hire persian speaking Jews because they posed a security risk due to their relations in Israel.

235 Lidanghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 1:51:12pm

re: #233 oriana fan

Oh please. Nothing would satisfy you and you know it. Everyone involved in Park51 could give statements and donate large sums of money to 9/11 memorial funds or what the fuck ever, and you'd still find a reason to object.

Don't try and insult anyone here by pretending that a statement or some other action would change your mind. You know damn well that's a lie.

236 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 2:10:27pm

re: #234 oriana fan

I will verify the information. There was an article that mentioned the shortage. Please note, however, the FBI also refused to hire persian speaking Jews because they posed a security risk due to their relations in Israel.

Hay what's up with your triumphal facility?

I got me an exultified garage, and a beholdimazing gazebo, hell yeah let's rock

237 blueraven  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 2:16:39pm

re: #77 Lidane

Moving the site of Park51 or otherwise not building it is an undeserved victory for the anti-Muslim bigots like Pam Geller and Glenn Beck. It's also a sign that people can still emotionally exploit 9/11 as loudly as possible and people will still fall for it.

Neither of those are preferable options. The Park51 project must go forward, and it must be built exactly where they're going to build it. Period. To do otherwise is to give the intolerant bigots and the cynical manipulators on the right a win.

Not only that, it could turn the young Muslim population to the extreme side of Islam. If they aren't allowed to pray and practice as moderate, then something else will surely beckon.

238 wrenchwench  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 2:21:27pm

re: #233 oriana fan

"As I leader of my community, I encourage all of our members to assist our government in making sure that such an act can never happen again in our names."

You want them to say that 9/11 was done in their names? What would you do next with that statement, I wonder.

239 oriana fan  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 3:12:20pm

re: #235 Lidane


Wow, that is really well reasoned arguement. I missed that one in rhetoric and logic. You already know what I am going to say. QED. I expect more from a fellow Lizard.

How about responding to the undisputed quotes from the Imam?

240 oriana fan  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 3:16:24pm

re: #238 wrenchwench


Its not hard. After any particular gruesome act of terror, the American Muslim community through its various organizations issues an ambiguous statement that these acts are not part of Islam and they support the US in responding.

The usual fare from CAIR is that it opposes all terrorism,regardless of origin, but especially those of the Zionists.

The next statement is that they are seeking to limit the influence that such radical positions have in their own community.

241 oriana fan  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 3:21:31pm

re: #234 oriana fan

Here is the citation regarding the shortage of arabic speaking translators. Granted it is more than 5 years old, so I cannot verify if this is still an issue, but it goes to my earlier point about the 442nd brigade.

[Link: www.campus-watch.org...]

242 oriana fan  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 3:22:44pm

re: #240 oriana fan


oops..."an unambiguous statement."

Too much reliance on spell check there.

243 wrenchwench  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 3:23:15pm

re: #240 oriana fan

Its not hard. After any particular gruesome act of terror, the American Muslim community through its various organizations issues an ambiguous statement that these acts are not part of Islam and they support the US in responding.

The usual fare from CAIR is that it opposes all terrorism,regardless of origin, but especially those of the Zionists.

The next statement is that they are seeking to limit the influence that such radical positions have in their own community.

You missed my point. You are syaing 9/11 was done in the names of the leaders of the Park51 project. That was a stupid thing for you to do.

244 Lidanghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 3:25:20pm

re: #239 oriana fan

How about doing more than just buying the anti-Park51 bullshit? Start there, then we'll talk.

There is nothing about the Park51 center that shows ill intent or malice. It's being built by Sufi Muslims, for crying out loud. Do you realize that Osama bin Laden would be just as quick to bomb a Sufi community center/mosque as he would anything else because it's the wrong kind of Islam? I'll bet you didn't. You probably think all Muslims are the same or believe the same things. They don't.

I haven't read anything that ha been blogged about extensively here at LGF that even remotely gives me pause or which concerns me about this center, except for all the incoherent rage coming from the bigots over it.

245 oriana fan  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 3:25:43pm

re: #237 blueraven


Are we already forgiving those who might turn to radicalism?

Its clearly our fault. Those who will decide to murder innocents in the name of G-d do so only because they cannot find a conveniently located mosque?

246 oriana fan  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 3:28:49pm

re: #244 Lidane


I am buying no bullshit. I am responding to the undisputed words of their imam for whom nary a word can be directed agaisnt Hamas.

Move it 20 blocks north and I could care less. I am sure the lower mid town community can use a pool and multi-faith room as much as the investment bankers.

247 oriana fan  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 3:30:15pm

re: #243 wrenchwench


I indeed missed your point as much as you missed mine. I will refrain from the name calling. Why not give it a try?

248 Lidanghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 3:31:17pm

re: #246 oriana fan

The fact that you want it moved proves you're buying the bullshit.

It shouldn't be moved. It shouldn't be stopped. The people building it have the legal and Constitutional rights to build, and we have religious freedom in this country. Deal. With. It.

249 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 3:34:12pm
250 jayzee  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 3:38:46pm

I have a hard time with these kinds of posts. The mosque has every constitutional right to be built. That's it. To say the area around 9-11 isn't "sacred" because of the presence of a NY Dolls which existed long before 9-11 is erroneous. To say the proposed location for the mosque is not ground zero, is also inaccurate and lends credibility actually to those fighting the mosque. Landing gear landed on the building in question on 9-11. That whole downtown area is actually ground zero. But that's besides the point-the point is it makes no difference. To somehow argue that this land is not hallowed or ground zero leaves open the notion that if it indeed were, then it would be ok for the government to try and stop the building of the mosque. And it is not.

251 Lidanghazi  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 3:44:25pm

re: #250 jayzee

There's just one problem here-- you're assuming there was only one Ground Zero that day. There wasn't. There were three: the WTC, the Pentagon, and those fields in PA where the passengers brought the plane down. The 9/11 attacks were never just confined to New York.

BTW, it should be noted that the Pentagon already has a mosque INSIDE the building, and it was a 9/11 attack site. We're not talking about a building two blocks away that got hit by landing gear. The Pentagon itself was hit, and there's a mosque inside it now. Been there for years, and no one's ever made it an issue. I wonder why.

252 wrenchwench  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 3:49:09pm

re: #247 oriana fan

I indeed missed your point as much as you missed mine. I will refrain from the name calling. Why not give it a try?

I didn't say you were stupid. I said you did a stupid thing. Why not correct it?

253 jayzee  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 3:52:17pm

re: #251 Lidane

There's just one problem here-- you're assuming there was only one Ground Zero that day. There wasn't. There were three: the WTC, the Pentagon, and those fields in PA where the passengers brought the plane down. The 9/11 attacks were never just confined to New York.

BTW, it should be noted that the Pentagon already has a mosque INSIDE the building, and it was a 9/11 attack site. We're not talking about a building two blocks away that got hit by landing gear. The Pentagon itself was hit, and there's a mosque inside it now. Been there for years, and no one's ever made it an issue. I wonder why.

I'm not. In NY there was one ground zero and what it encompasses is irrelevant.

As to the Pentagon, that's kind of my point (though there is a difference between public and private property). Freedom of religion is freedom of religion-at ground zero, in Virginia, in California.

254 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 4:23:57pm
255 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 4:33:11pm
256 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 4:33:32pm

re: #251 Lidane

There's just one problem here-- you're assuming there was only one Ground Zero that day. There wasn't. There were three: the WTC, the Pentagon, and those fields in PA where the passengers brought the plane down. The 9/11 attacks were never just confined to New York.

BTW, it should be noted that the Pentagon already has a mosque INSIDE the building, and it was a 9/11 attack site. We're not talking about a building two blocks away that got hit by landing gear. The Pentagon itself was hit, and there's a mosque inside it now. Been there for years, and no one's ever made it an issue. I wonder why.

Because the Pentagon doesn't care what Pam Geller has to say?

257 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 4:42:05pm
258 webs87  Mon, Aug 16, 2010 6:19:49pm

I really don't understand what the pictures are supposed to contradict? Perhaps other than the author's own incorrect assumptions.

259 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Aug 17, 2010 12:43:54am

re: #258 webs87

I really don't understand what the pictures are supposed to contradict? Perhaps other than the author's own incorrect assumptions.

hey dead thread chump, mayhaps you should stop hiding in dead threads, huh?

260 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Aug 17, 2010 12:46:48am

re: #250 jayzee

I have a hard time with these kinds of posts. The mosque has every constitutional right to be built. That's it. To say the area around 9-11 isn't "sacred" because of the presence of a NY Dolls which existed long before 9-11 is erroneous. To say the proposed location for the mosque is not ground zero, is also inaccurate and lends credibility actually to those fighting the mosque. Landing gear landed on the building in question on 9-11. That whole downtown area is actually ground zero. But that's besides the point-the point is it makes no difference. To somehow argue that this land is not hallowed or ground zero leaves open the notion that if it indeed were, then it would be ok for the government to try and stop the building of the mosque. And it is not.

People live there, your handwringing does not trump that PEOPLE LIVE IN MANHATTAN and some chump who does't live there has no say over what people in Manhattan do with their town. Take your landing gear and cram it. It's downtown, its's not a symbol. it's a CITY. Where people LIVE, WORK, and WORSHIP.

It's like some jerk in Tennessee telling Portland where they can put a mosque. Fuck that.


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