Environmentalist Peter Sinclair’s Climate Denial Crock of the Week deals with the often-repeated canard that since CO2 is good for plants, more CO2 must be even better for plants.
1 |
aurelius Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:29:42pm |
Sure, more C02 the better. Plankton and algae love swimming in acid.
Really, morons? All relationships are monotonic? really?
I hate anti-science nuts. Really despise them.
| 2 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:30:46pm |
re: #1 aurelius
Sure, more C02 the better. Plankton and algae love swimming in acid.
Really, morons? All relationships are monotonic? really?
I hate anti-science nuts. Really despise them.
Monomania is never an attractive quality, and they have it in spades.
| 3 |
Max Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:32:57pm |
“CO2 is plant food.”
Glad to see y’all passed middle school science!
“Therefore more CO2 is good for plants.”
Sorry to say y’all failed 2nd grade logic.
| 4 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:37:24pm |
the often-repeated canard that since CO2 is good for plants, more CO2 must be even better for plants.
A tank needs many of it’s bearings, bogeys, and engine parts lubricated by oil to operate properly. Therefore isn’t it logical to assume that the tank would operate much better if it was kept completely submerged in oil?
/
| 5 |
aurelius Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:37:52pm |
I’m starting to worry about this country. Really fundamentally worry.
Warming denialists using schoolyard-level arguments like this— and winning.
Harry Reid coming out against the mosque.
Obama steadfastly opposing gay marriage, and our most progressive circuit court (9th) opposing a simple acknowledgement (Prop 8) of gay personhood.
Is this entire country gone freakazoid?
I pray that there’s intelligent life somewhere out in space, cause there’s bugger-all down here on earth. —M
| 6 |
Max Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:42:34pm |
re: #5 aurelius
The whole Harry Reid thing is all politics. He’s hoping to scrape off a few teabag voters from Angle’s boot heals. It won’t work, but canny politicians like Reid will do anything for a vote.
| 7 |
aurelius Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:44:29pm |
Here’s a short and nasty equation for you denialist dipshits.
C02 + H20 H+ + HC03-
see that H+? that’s acid baby. The more of that the better? mmm.. hmmm…
A little Henderson-Hasselbalch love for you this fine night.
| 8 |
Max Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:44:33pm |
It’s a pretty horrifying thought that in two years, the American people may elect their first climate change denier to the Presidency.
| 9 |
Kragar Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:45:53pm |
Water is good for me, so therefore the more water, the better, right?
/
| 10 |
aurelius Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:46:26pm |
where’s my arrow? perhaps its in the bukkit.
try again:
C02 + H20 {—} H+ + HC03-
re: #7 aurelius
Here’s a short and nasty equation for you denialist dipshits.
C02 + H20 H+ + HC03-
see that H+? that’s acid baby. The more of that the better? mmm.. hmmm…
A little Henderson-Hasselbalch love for you this fine night.
| 11 |
b_sharp Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:48:17pm |
CO2 is needed by plants to grow, but so is water, nitrogen, iron, phosphorus, a number of other elements and the correct amount of light. Unless the plant is short in one or more of those essentials, increasing one isn’t guaranteed to do anything positive and in fact may stress the plant.
Do people really have such significant problems visualizing the interactions of complex systems? Is there something mystical about the concept that more is not always better?
| 12 |
Kronocide Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:50:23pm |
‘Oxygen is good for you. Mr Monckton, would you like to suck on 100% oxygen for a while?’
| 13 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:50:32pm |
re: #11 b_sharp
CO2 is needed by plants to grow, but so is water, nitrogen, iron, phosphorus, a number of other elements and the correct amount of light. Unless the plant is short in one or more of those essentials, increasing one isn’t guaranteed to do anything positive and in fact may stress the plant.
Do people really have such significant problems visualizing the interactions of complex systems? Is there something mystical about the concept that more is not always better?
They don’t handle complexity. They just latch onto a fact and then build their denial around it. If they actually tried to understand the fact in context their heads would explode.
| 14 |
sagehen Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:51:32pm |
re: #12 BigPapa
‘Oxygen is good for you. Mr Monckton, would you like to suck on 100% oxygen for a while?’
I’ve hard hypoxia is tons of fun… probably one of the least unpleasant ways to go.
| 15 |
Kragar Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:54:00pm |
re: #13 Dark_Falcon
They don’t handle complexity. They just latch onto a fact and then build their denial around it. If they actually tried to understand the fact in context their heads would explode.
These people want it all in one book, and they’ve found theirs already.
| 16 |
Kronocide Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:55:08pm |
re: #14 sagehen
I’ve hard hypoxia is tons of fun… probably one of the least unpleasant ways to go.
I’m not suggesting Monckton suck on 100% oxygen or hoping he does, but I wish somebody would ask him to show the folly of his (lack of) logic. It’s binary thinking, akin to ‘he’s bad, he’s for it, therefore I’m against it.’
| 17 |
Four More Tears Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:56:22pm |
re: #15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
These people want it all in one book, and they’ve found theirs already.
I bet it’s a picture book!
| 18 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:56:24pm |
AGW will start to matter the day when humanity’s baseless hatreds become less likely to destroy us all than a gradual temperature increase.
| 19 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:57:52pm |
re: #11 b_sharp
CO2 is needed by plants to grow, but so is water, nitrogen, iron, phosphorus, a number of other elements and the correct amount of light. Unless the plant is short in one or more of those essentials, increasing one isn’t guaranteed to do anything positive and in fact may stress the plant.
Do people really have such significant problems visualizing the interactions of complex systems? Is there something mystical about the concept that more is not always better?
It’s nearly impossible to teach people simple science when their ideology depends on their not understanding it.
| 20 |
Four More Tears Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:58:35pm |
re: #19 SanFranciscoZionist
It’s nearly impossible to teach people simple science when their ideology depends on their not understanding it.
That’s deep, hun.
| 21 |
b_sharp Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:59:23pm |
re: #12 BigPapa
‘Oxygen is good for you. Mr Monckton, would you like to suck on 100% oxygen for a while?’
He agrees to that in a hyperbaric chamber and I’ll supply the lit cuban.
| 22 |
Kronocide Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:59:27pm |
re: #18 Cato the Elder
AGW will start to matter the day when humanity’s baseless hatreds become less likely to destroy us all than a gradual temperature increase.
AGW will cause the baseless hatreds kept somewhat in check for 70 years to erupt again once food becomes scarce and living becomes more of a burden.
| 23 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Aug 16, 2010 9:59:30pm |
re: #15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
These people want it all in one book, and they’ve found theirs already.
There’s a perfectly good reason why the good Lord gave us a Bible, not a biochemistry text. But some days, one wishes She had included some footnotes.
| 24 |
Kragar Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:00:04pm |
re: #18 Cato the Elder
AGW will start to matter the day when humanity’s baseless hatreds become less likely to destroy us all than a gradual temperature increase.
I have full confidence for humanity to come up with new baseless hatreds in the coming new age.
| 25 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:01:32pm |
| 26 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:02:38pm |
re: #22 BigPapa
AGW will cause the baseless hatreds kept somewhat in check for 70 years to erupt again once food becomes scarce and living becomes more of a burden.
My point is that the baseless hatreds are currently preventing us from doing anything about it, and will continue to do so.
The idea of “humanity” coming up with a unified, non-fascistoid plan to counter anything as far off as twenty years or a century from now is, under current political-sociological conditions, pure wishful thinking.
| 27 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:03:36pm |
re: #24 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I have full confidence for humanity to come up with new baseless hatreds in the coming new age.
Humanity will always found reasons to hate. We’re just screwed up like that.
| 29 |
Kragar Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:03:45pm |
Some say the end is near.
Some say we’ll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will.
I sure could use a vacation from this
Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of Freaks
Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any fucking time. Any fucking day.
Learn to swim, I’ll see you down in Arizona bay.
| 30 |
Four More Tears Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:03:58pm |
Sinclair makes some really good points, but I haven’t heard him denounce Hamas yet…
| 31 |
aurelius Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:05:08pm |
lol… but what about social security trust fund possibly running out in 2037? That’s 27 years away and that gets the wingnuts exercised.
See, they can look that far ahead, but only if it benefits them.
selective anticipation.
re: #26 Cato the Elder
My point is that the baseless hatreds are currently preventing us from doing anything about it, and will continue to do so.
The idea of “humanity” coming up with a unified, non-fascistoid plan to counter anything as far off as twenty years or a century from now is, under current political-sociological conditions, pure wishful thinking.
| 32 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:05:50pm |
Addendum from last thread: I just found out that “Pillars of the Earth” co-stars the venerable Donald Sutherland.
I’d watch him in schlocky neo-Nazi porn, that’s how much I love that man and actor.
| 33 |
Kragar Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:06:45pm |
re: #32 Cato the Elder
Addendum from last thread: I just found out that “Pillars of the Earth” co-stars the venerable Donald Sutherland.
I’d watch him in schlocky neo-Nazi porn, that’s how much I love that man and actor.
Did you ever see the movie Citizen X? He put in a great performance there.
| 34 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:07:04pm |
re: #31 aurelius
lol… but what about social security trust fund possibly running out in 2037? That’s 27 years away and that gets the wingnuts exercised.
See, they can look that far ahead, but only if it benefits them.
selective anticipation.
I did say “non-fascistoid”, did I not? Look at their plans. Abolish or privatize Social Security.
Nuff sed.
| 35 |
Nick Schroeder Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:07:49pm |
“It’s not a big truck. It’s a series of foods. And if you don’t understand, those foods can be filled and if they are filled, when you put your message in, it gets in line and it’s going to be delayed by anyone that puts into that food enormous amounts of material, enormous amounts of material.”
| 36 |
Kronocide Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:08:45pm |
re: #32 Cato the Elder
I’d watch him in schlocky neo-Nazipornerotic cinema, that’s how much I love that man and actor.
FIFY. I abhor such schlocky terms…. but yes, I’d prolly watch it too. I always enjoy Sutherland.
| 37 |
Four More Tears Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:08:53pm |
re: #35 Nick Schroeder
“It’s not a big truck. It’s a series of foods. And if you don’t understand, those foods can be filled and if they are filled, when you put your message in, it gets in line and it’s going to be delayed by anyone that puts into that food enormous amounts of material, enormous amounts of material.”
Eh. Too soon.
| 38 |
Batman Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:11:08pm |
Republicans believe AGW is a scheme by the left to create a totalitarian government to combat it, and they work so damn hard to make sure that’s the only way we’ll be able to solve it.
| 39 |
Nick Schroeder Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:12:33pm |
re: #37 JasonA
It wasn’t a dig on an individual, but the philosophy of ‘talk out of my ass regarding a subject I know nothing about’. The quote it timeless, regardless of current personal events. It’s indicative of how stupid old people in Congress of any stripe often have their ‘knowledge’ of a subject rooted in lobbyist talking points that are by and large based on fantasy.
| 40 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:13:05pm |
re: #36 BigPapa
FIFY. I abhor such schlocky terms… but yes, I’d prolly watch it too. I always enjoy Sutherland.
His eyes alone, those wickedly sardonic orbs, are enough to make me laugh myself to sleep at night.
Apropos laughter: If any Lizard is looking for literary belly laughs, the kind that Rabelais and Joyce can engender, I’m currently rereading “A Confederacy of Dunces” by John Kennedy Toole.
Perhaps the single funniest American novel published in the twentieth century.
I’ll be happy to post a couple of gems here if anyone is unconvinced.
| 41 |
Four More Tears Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:15:21pm |
re: #39 Nick Schroeder
It wasn’t a dig on an individual, but the philosophy of ‘talk out of my ass regarding a subject I know nothing about’. The quote it timeless, regardless of current personal events. It’s indicative of how stupid old people in Congress of any stripe often have their ‘knowledge’ of a subject rooted in lobbyist talking points that are by and large based on fantasy.
Nah, I didn’t think you meant anything crass by it. It’s just that the guy just died. And… series of “foods?”
| 42 |
Dancing along the light of day Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:24:56pm |
re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Water is good for me, so therefore the more water, the better, right?
/
LOL!
Go soak your head!
| 43 |
Kragar Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:25:47pm |
| 44 |
Nick Schroeder Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:31:45pm |
| 45 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:38:36pm |
re: #7 aurelius
Here’s a short and nasty equation for you denialist dipshits.
C02 + H20 H+ + HC03-
see that H+? that’s acid baby. The more of that the better? mmm.. hmmm…
A little Henderson-Hasselbalch love for you this fine night.
Excellent post.
| 47 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, Aug 16, 2010 10:59:59pm |
So…
The trends shown in that video are only going to accelerate on the path we are currently on.
Already we are seeing a real sting.
In Pakistan millions displaced and all they had lost. A fifth of the nation flooded and their crops devastated.
They just had several Katrinas worth of devastation.
Russian are crops failing.
Of course, the flooding in the Midwest and the extremely snowy winter we had, are also evidence of the simple physics that a warmer atmosphere can hold more vapor which will precipitate.
The point about phytoplankton destruction is the most horrible. They produce the bulk of our oxygen and are the base of the oceanic food chain.
Very simply put, the oceans are getting saturated with CO2. This, coupled with all sorts of other pollution, is killing the very organisms that would scrub the CO2. Over time, we will miss the oxygen production as well.
So get this really straight. There is no hyperbole. There is no exaggeration. If we do not change course, then billions of people will die.
| 48 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:06:21pm |
re: #47 LudwigVanQuixote
So…
The trends shown in that video are only going to accelerate on the path we are currently on.
Already we are seeing a real sting.
In Pakistan millions displaced and all they had lost. A fifth of the nation flooded and their crops devastated.
They just had several Katrinas worth of devastation.
Russian are crops failing.
Of course, the flooding in the Midwest and the extremely snowy winter we had, are also evidence of the simple physics that a warmer atmosphere can hold more vapor which will precipitate.
The point about phytoplankton destruction is the most horrible. They produce the bulk of our oxygen and are the base of the oceanic food chain.
Very simply put, the oceans are getting saturated with CO2. This, coupled with all sorts of other pollution, is killing the very organisms that would scrub the CO2. Over time, we will miss the oxygen production as well.
So get this really straight. There is no hyperbole. There is no exaggeration. If we do not change course, then billions of people will die.
Big floods have happened before.
Crops have failed before.
Plagues and epidemics and starvation have all happened before.
These are not “evidence”, they are anecdotes.
I’m not even trying to say that your science is wrong.
But I’m also not sure that billions of people dying is either something we can prevent, or a bad thing. It might be the way the earth self-regulates to get the human population down to livable levels again.
Nature wiping out half of humanity would in my eyes in any case be better than humanity doing that to itself, in an effort to appease “nature”. Which is the only other way I can see for us to practically deal with the fact that overpopulation is the root cause of AGW.
| 49 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:13:23pm |
re: #48 Cato the Elder
Big floods have happened before.
Crops have failed before.
Plagues and epidemics and starvation have all happened before.
These are not “evidence”, they are anecdotes.
I’m not even trying to say that your science is wrong.
But I’m also not sure that billions of people dying is either something we can prevent, or a bad thing. It might be the way the earth self-regulates to get the human population down to livable levels again.
Nature wiping out half of humanity would in my eyes in any case be better than humanity doing that to itself, in an effort to appease “nature”. Which is the only other way I can see for us to practically deal with the fact that overpopulation is the root cause of AGW.
There are several flaws in your arguments.
1. It is not that floods, famines, droughts and extreme weather events never happened before. It is that these things will start happening all over with increased intensity and frequency.
2. They are not anecdotes, these patterns of increasing extreme weather have been predicted for some time, and they are only going to get worse. It is not the individual events, but rather the trends in events. The trends make the arguments. One trend is more frequent and more devastating weather events.
3. This is not nature causing it. It is us doing it to ourselves and cause and effect taking over. In as much as the laws of physics are inclusive, and hence everything is natural, you have a point. But that point only exists to the notion that all the physics and chemistry that makes a gun go bang and a bullet fly are “mother nature.” We are pulling the trigger.
| 50 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:16:31pm |
re: #49 LudwigVanQuixote
We are pulling the trigger.
Of course we are. “We” meaning not just the bad guys at the top of the economic food chain, but humanity in the aggregate.
I still see no solution to that outside of 1) nature taking its course or 2) humans doing it preemptively, by killing all the “excess” humans, depending on who decides who is “excess”.
I’ll take the former, and take my chances.
| 51 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:19:25pm |
re: #50 Cato the Elder
Of course we are. “We” meaning not just the bad guys at the top of the economic food chain, but humanity in the aggregate.
I still see no solution to that outside of 1) nature taking its course or 2) humans doing it preemptively, by killing all the “excess” humans, depending on who decides who is “excess”.
I’ll take the former, and take my chances.
We are condemning ourselves to both, and your chances are not so great. America is not going to be spared the effects of this.
Really, what sort of government decides who gets what is left of the crops when there simply isn’t enough to feed everyone?
| 52 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:21:19pm |
re: #51 LudwigVanQuixote
We are condemning ourselves to both, and your chances are not so great. America is not going to be spared the effects of this.
Really, what sort of government decides who gets what is left of the crops when there simply isn’t enough to feed everyone?
The future’s so dark, I have to wear night-vision goggles.
| 53 |
freetoken Mon, Aug 16, 2010 11:24:33pm |
re: #8 Max D. Reinhardt
It’s a pretty horrifying thought that in two years, the American people may elect their first climate change denier to the Presidency.
RWR doesn’t count?
| 54 |
mkelly Tue, Aug 17, 2010 9:01:29am |
From the Economist: “The immediate cause of the problems is the behaviour of the jet stream, a band of high-level wind that travels east around the world and influences much of the weather below it. Part of the jet stream’s meandering is tied to regular shifts of air towards and away from the pole, called Rossby waves. The Rossby waves set up wiggles in the jet stream, wiggles which, left to themselves, would move westward. Since the jet stream is flowing eastward, though, the net effect of the Rossby waves varies. When the waves are short, they go with the jet’s flow and the resultant wiggling heads downstream to the east. When they are long they go against the flow, and the jet’s wiggling is transmitted upstream to the west. In between, there is a regime in which the waves move neither west nor east, and the weather stays put.
According to Brian Hoskins, a climate scientist at the University of Reading, the wave-generating activity of anticyclones in the Atlantic this year has been particularly well attuned to setting up these sorts of stationary waves, resulting in persistent troughs of low pressure over western and central Europe, a ridge of high pressure over Russia, and lows again to the east. The air itself does not necessarily sit still during all this, but the pressure patterns which dominate the weather persist. The high pressure over Russia is particularly pronounced and persistent, amounting to a block in the circulation of the atmosphere.”
| 55 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Aug 17, 2010 9:17:40am |
re: #54 mkelly
The resident climate denial idiot is back again, spewing nonsense, as usual.
| 56 |
MKelly Tue, Aug 17, 2010 11:59:02am |
Charles what exactly in the post is nonsense? Jet streams? Rossby waves? High pressure?
| 57 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 17, 2010 12:13:28pm |
re: #56 MKelly
Charles what exactly in the post is nonsense? Jet streams? Rossby waves? High pressure?
What is nonsense is several things:
1. Your argument is logically identical to saying the shot man was killed by the effects of the bullet, therefore the shooter is not to blame. It is true that there have been shifts in air currents. Those more extreme shifts and the moe extreme results from them are the result of an overall warmer and wetter atmosphere. The warmer and wetter atmosphere was caused by our emissions.
2. Until you read the term “Rossby wave,” on whatever climate denial site you were looking at, you had never heard of one. Your disingenuous attempt to speak with authority is inappropriate. You are using words that you have no understanding of.
Just to prove it, what generates a Rossby wave, and what does it have to do with the Russian drought? Further, where is the data or evidence you are referring to? These are answerable questions. Someone with data and expertise would be able to field them. If you can field them correctly, you will see the error of your main argument.
Otherwise, your attempts to baffle with BS are unimpressive.
| 58 |
MKelly Tue, Aug 17, 2010 1:26:29pm |
LVQ please note my post is a quote from the Economist. I can furnish another from the New Scientist that says almost the same thing.
Rossby waves are the meandering of the jet stream. As I understand it they are the effect of the interaction of the shearing forces in rotating air (fluid) and the Coriolis force.
But since I didn’t write the post whether I knew or didn’t know is irrelevant. The climate scientist Brian Hoskins did.
So I what in the post is nonsense.
| 59 |
Interesting Times Tue, Aug 17, 2010 1:39:34pm |
re: #58 MKelly
“Nonsense” is your idiotic nitpicking of things you think support your beliefs while completely ignoring the big picture - “hey, the basement is on fire, but the upstairs is fine! No need to call 911!”
Saudi Arabia and Iran benefit most from the world’s oil addiction. Why do you enjoy performing metaphorical sexual favors for them?
| 60 |
MKelly Tue, Aug 17, 2010 1:40:33pm |
Aug 14, 2010
Frozen jet stream links Pakistan floods, Russian fires By Michael Marshall, New Scientist
UPDATE: Temperatures are easing and after tomorrow, it will turn quite cool in Moscow as the persistent block breaks down.
“Raging wildfires in western Russia have reportedly doubled average daily death rates in Moscow. Diluvial rains over northern Pakistan are surging south - the UN reports that 6 million have been affected by the resulting floods.
It now seems that these two apparently disconnected events have a common cause. They are linked to the heatwave that killed more than 60 in Japan, and the end of the warm spell in western Europe. The unusual weather in the US and Canada last month also has a similar cause.
According to meteorologists monitoring the atmosphere above the northern hemisphere, unusual holding patterns in the jet stream are to blame. As a result, weather systems sat still. Temperatures rocketed and rainfall reached extremes.”
Peter Sinclair needs to do his homework better. CO2 had nothing to do with this. And if you look at history events such as this have been documented in Russia since the 1200’s.
| 61 |
MKelly Tue, Aug 17, 2010 1:41:48pm |
re: #59 publicityStunted
“Nonsense” is your idiotic nitpicking of things you think support your beliefs while completely ignoring the big picture - “hey, the basement is on fire, but the upstairs is fine! No need to call 911!”
Saudi Arabia and Iran benefit most from the world’s oil addiction. Why do you enjoy performing metaphorical sexual favors for them?
So you found nothing in the post that was incorrect.
| 62 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Aug 17, 2010 2:23:21pm |
re: #58 MKelly
Your false conclusions are what are nonsense. The reason it is relevant that you have no clue what you are talking about, is that if you did you would be able to see, that what you cherry picked from the climate scientist actually supports the facts of AGW.
re: #60 MKelly
According to meteorologists monitoring the atmosphere above the northern hemisphere, unusual holding patterns in the jet stream are to blame. As a result, weather systems sat still. Temperatures rocketed and rainfall reached extremes.”
Let’s try this slowly, since, as usual, you have a very hard time with cause and effect.
Why was there so much extra moisture in the atmosphere to drive those storms?
Answer - Because the atmosphere was warmer and therefore had more water vapor in it and more energy to create intense storms. That is why the monsoons were so terrible. This is a basic set of well demonstrated and easy to understand ideas, one is that what goes up must come down, one is that a warmer atmosphere can hold more water vapor before it does precipitate, and the other is that energy is conserved. If you don’t believe those statements about a warmer atmosphere being able to hold more vapor - and for that matter warmer seas and lakes having higher vapor pressure, I invite you to look at any reasonable high school chemistry book.
Why was there that pressure front in the first place? What was the origin of these Rossby waves?
Answer - A warmer atmosphere has more energy in it to create such phenomena and energy is conserved. The entire point is that events like this are now much more likely since there is now a lot more energy available to make them happen. The extra energy came ultimately from the sun, but was trapped here by CO2 and other greenhouse gases.
Now on a personal note. I am very sick of you coming out with all of these strong statements as to who needs to do their homework. Again and again you have proven to fail at comprehending even the most basic science, yet you come here with all sorts of fury and accusation about the competence of others. The reality is that you have no clue what you are saying and never have. The reality is that basic cause and effect eludes you as a principle, and the reality is that trying to educate you has always resulted in you completely passing over what was painstakingly explained to you.
Science is not about you just ignoring the science and skipping on to some other misunderstood talking point you read somewhere from those out to deceive. The very fact that you consider the Economist to be a respectable source of science actually says it all to anyone with a clue.
You were asked for data and mechanism to back up your false conclusions. You have none except a quote from a non-scientific source which itself has no data and no mention of the underlying mechanism.
You do not get to ignore the facts and the mechanisms laid out before you. Warmer air and warmer seas means more water vapor in the air and more intense and extreme whether events.
There is a difference between proximate cause and root cause. Learn that difference. Understand that talking about a bullet killing someone does not contradict anything said about what made the bullet fly, or the one who pulled the trigger.
I am fed up with your nonsense and your BS. Take the time to learn basic - and I do mean basic - high school science before opening your mouth. Take the time to understand such difficult logical principles as cause and effect, before opening your mouth. Take the time to have the slightest respect for actual facts - and actually seek them out - before driving to your preconceived conclusions.
| 63 |
Interesting Times Tue, Aug 17, 2010 4:54:11pm |
re: #60 MKelly
Peter Sinclair needs to do his homework better. CO2 had nothing to do with this.
The atmosphere of Venus is heavier than that of any other planet. It consists primarily of carbon dioxide…the temperature of the planet’s surface is about 870 degrees F (465 degrees C), higher than that of any other planet and hotter than most ovens.
Translation: why would Mercury, only 36 million miles away from the sun vs 67.2 million miles for Venus, be cooler? Could it be because the 96% CO2 atmosphere of Venus causes…oh, I don’t know… a greenhouse effect?
A greenhouse lets in radiant energy from the sun, but it prevents much of the heat from escaping. The thick clouds and dense atmosphere of Venus work in much the same way. The sun’s radiant energy readily filters into the planet’s atmosphere. But the large droplets of sulfuric acid present in Venus’s clouds — and the great quantity of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere — seem to trap much of the solar energy at the planet’s surface.
I’m sure a fifth-grader could understand this concept, naturally making them smarter than you.
As for “history”, we’ve been in a solar minimum for the past decade, meaning less solar activity which should lead to an abundance and average of cooler temperatures. Yet this was the hottest decade on record instead. Again, a fifth-grader (even an exceptionally slow-witted one) could put two and two together and figure out why this was. They could figure out that CO2 causes warmer temperatures which cause unusual weather patterns which in turn cause droughts in some places, floods in others, and massive snowstorms depending on the time of year.
I know you, in your infinite willful ignorance, will ignore this, so my main purpose in posting it is for the benefit of others who may wind up lurking on this thread.
| 64 |
Merkin Tue, Aug 17, 2010 7:35:49pm |
I can guarantee you that the CO2 is natural and benign group doesn’t include any miners or submariners.
The next time someone comes here shoveling this drivel, invite them to sit in an atmosphere that is 1% CO2. There soon would be one fewer of the denier, incapable of learning class due to CO2 poisoning.
| 65 |
mkelly Wed, Aug 18, 2010 6:43:51am |
publicityStunted:
I know you, in your infinite willful ignorance, will ignore this, so my main purpose in posting it is for the benefit of others who may wind up lurking on this thread.
Understand that PV=nRT fully explains the reason Venus is hotter than Earth or Mercury. The pressure there is 90 times ours.
Mars has an atmosphere that is 94% CO2, but is not hotter than it should be because the atmospheric pressure is low.
| 66 |
mkelly Wed, Aug 18, 2010 6:59:33am |
re: #64 Merkin
“There is no danger to humans at this level - the CO2 levels in submarines may reach 8,000 ppm without problems for humans, and our exhaled breath has about 40,000 ppm of CO2.”
Let see 380 ppm in atmophere, subs may reach 8000 so that is 21 times our atmospheric level. If we burn all the oil and natural gas we know of we cannot get to 700 ppm so what is your point.
| 67 |
mkelly Wed, Aug 18, 2010 7:08:27am |
LVQ “You do not get to ignore the facts and the mechanisms laid out before you.”
Please indicate how CO2 has anything to do with the Coriolis effect or the shearing pressure of rotating fluids. You show me how that happens and I will accept CO2 caused the jet stream to meander and produce a blocking high pressure area.
| 68 |
Interesting Times Wed, Aug 18, 2010 7:57:40am |
re: #65 mkelly
Mars has an atmosphere that is 94% CO2, but is not hotter than it should be because the atmospheric pressure is low.
Mars is another example of a secondary atmosphere from outgassing (therefore, we know that Mars had an early epoch of tectonic activity). However, unlike the Earth or Venus, the atmosphere is very thin, about 1% the mass of Earth’s atmosphere. Its composition is 95% CO2, 3% N2, 2% Ar and less than 1% O2… There is too little mass in the atmosphere to hold in heat
Translation: I have a 6-oz paper cup and a 31-gallon barrel. Both of them are 96% percent full of beer. Which one will the frat boys take to their party? (Frat boys who, even they consume 100% of the barrel’s contents, will still posses better math and science skills than you).
re: #66 mkelly
Let see 380 ppm in atmophere, subs may reach 8000 so that is 21 times our atmospheric level.
This is why you fail, Part Deux:
There are three things that must happen in order to keep air in a submarine breathable:1. Oxygen has to be replenished as it is consumed. If the percentage of oxygen in the air falls too low, a person suffocates.
2. Carbon dioxide must be removed from the air. As the concentration of carbon dioxide rises, it becomes a toxin.
3. The moisture that we exhale in our breath must be removed.
Does it give you some kind of thrill in your naughty place to continually be exposed as a lying moron?
| 69 |
MKelly Wed, Aug 18, 2010 9:36:11am |
publicityStunted:
“There is too little mass in the atmosphere to hold in heat.”
This is exactly what I said. P in PV=nRT is caused by the mass of the atmosphere. 14.7 psi. for Earth. So I am correct so far. If you’re going to use the mass as example of why there is so little heat on Mars then apply the same line of reasoning to Venus that is 90 times the pressure of Earth. What would the temperature of Earth be if you increased the pressure 90 times?
“There are three things that must happen in order to keep air in a submarine breathable:”
Having been on a submarine all these are true but beside the point. At 8000 ppm in a submarine at >1% nothing happens. And since we cannot get to 8000 ppm in the atmophere no matter what we do your comments were incorrect.
| 70 |
Interesting Times Wed, Aug 18, 2010 1:32:25pm |
For more information on why the troll above is full of crap, see:
At Venus’ surface, the air pressure is 92 times the Earth’s surface atmospheric pressure. Venus’ surface atmospheric pressure is the same as what you would feel if you were 1 kilometer below the ocean surface on the Earth.
…so what’s the temperature that far below the ocean like? :)
In addition:
Venus was originally cooler than what it is now and it had a greater abundance of water several billion years ago. Also, most of its carbon dioxide was locked up in the rocks. Through a process called a runaway greenhouse, Venus heated up to its present blistering hot level. Because Venus was slightly closer to the Sun than the Earth, its water never liquified and remained in the atmosphere to start the greenhouse heating. As Venus heated up, some of the carbon dioxide in the rocks was “baked out.” The increase of atmospheric carbon dioxide enhanced the greenhouse heating. That baked more carbon dioxide out of the rocks (as well as any water) and a runaway positive feedback loop process occurred. This positive feedback loop occurred several hundred million to a few billion years ago so Venus has been very hot for that length of time.
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