Fundamentalist Indoctrination: Mandatory in the US Army?

US News • Views: 5,238

Chris Rodda is blowing the whistle on a blatant violation of the separation of church and state, in the US Army: U.S. Soldiers Punished for Not Attending Christian Concert.

For the past several years, two U.S. Army posts in Virginia, Fort Eustis and Fort Lee, have been putting on a series of what are called Commanding General’s Spiritual Fitness Concerts. As I’ve written in a number of other posts, “spiritual fitness” is just the military’s new term for promoting religion, particularly evangelical Christianity. And this concert series is no different.

On May 13, 2010, about eighty soldiers, stationed at Fort Eustis while attending a training course, were punished for opting out of attending one of these Christian concerts. The headliner at this concert was a Christian rock band called BarlowGirl, a band that describes itself as taking “an aggressive, almost warrior-like stance when it comes to spreading the gospel and serving God.”

Any doubt that this was an evangelical Christian event was cleared up by the Army post’s newspaper, the Fort Eustis Wheel, which ran an article after the concert that began:

Following the Apostle Paul’s message to the Ephesians in the Bible, Christian rock music’s edgy, all-girl band BarlowGirl brought the armor of God to the warriors and families of Fort Eustis during another installment of the Commanding General’s Spiritual Fitness Concert Series May 13 at Jacobs Theater.

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613 comments
1 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:20:12pm

Then I suspect the Commander in Chief should do something to stop this pronto.

2 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:24:00pm

Why is the Army have a "Spiritual Fitness Concert Series"?

3 samuraishake  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:24:01pm

I knew some people at the air force base here in Wichita that were pretty conservative. The base used to have some kind of mandatory bible-verse reading thing every day. Then the base made it optional, and they got pissed. I asked them why they were so pissed, seeing as the readings weren't being stopped, and they could keep doing it at their will. They didn't answer though...

Point being, I think some commanding officers get a bit overzealous when it comes to religion, and I'm starting to think it's more common than most realize...

4 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:24:34pm

Presenting, BarlowGirl:

5 Racer X  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:25:58pm

re: #1 Walter L. Newton

Then I suspect the Commander in Chief should do something to stop this pronto.

I kinda wish he would learn to stay out of these little things and delegate to those in authority. Lately he has been stepping on his dick and taking shit from both sides.

6 jaunte  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:26:19pm

re: #2 reine.de.tout

One contract, for example, awarded to an outside consulting firm to provide "spiritual fitness" services, was for $3.5 million.


How does the Army know when/if the troops are spiritually fit?

7 freetoken  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:26:51pm
8 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:27:02pm

re: #1 Walter L. Newton

Then I suspect the Commander in Chief should do something to stop this pronto.

I doubt the CIC has the power to completely weed out all of this kind of thing from the Pentagon.

9 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:27:27pm

It's Bush's fault.

10 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:28:42pm

After a few weeks of relative quiet, the hate mail is starting up again with a vengeance.

11 SilentAlfa  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:29:00pm

re: #6 jaunte

How does the Army know when/if the troops are spiritually fit?

I assume it's like APFT but with bible verses

12 samuraishake  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:29:34pm

re: #10 Charles

After a few weeks of relative quiet, the hate mail is starting up again with a vengeance.

Ooh! Can you post some?

13 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:29:51pm

re: #9 Walter L. Newton

It's Bush's fault.

The burrowing started a long time before that.

14 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:30:24pm

re: #10 Charles

After a few weeks of relative quiet, the hate mail is starting up again with a vengeance.

Mosque stuff?

15 Nervous Norvous  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:30:50pm

I'm back...I miss anything downstairs?

16 freetoken  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:31:06pm

re: #10 Charles

After a few weeks of relative quiet, the hate mail is starting up again with a vengeance.

If you plotted the number received vs. time, and compared to the tide charts, perhaps that could be instructive.

You never know, hate mail too might have something to do with the moon.

17 AntonSirius  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:31:54pm

re: #6 jaunte

How does the Army know when/if the troops are spiritually fit?

They have to be able to do a certain number of Jumping Ezekiels in the span of 90 seconds.

18 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:32:05pm

re: #6 jaunte

How does the Army know when/if the troops are spiritually fit?

Well, yeah! Who's keeping track? The Commanding General? I think that decision is just a tiny bit above his pay grade . . .

(And of course, I know full well I should have said "why DOES the Army have . . . "
instead of "why IS the Army have . . . ")

19 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:32:18pm

Nice fat separation of church and state issue. I believe there is a group (MRFF?) that has pursued lawsuits against the military regarding this sort of thing.

Yep. Military Religious Freedom Foundation

[Link: www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org...]

20 cliffster  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:33:25pm

re: #6 jaunte

How does the Army know when/if the troops are spiritually fit?

auras

21 Nervous Norvous  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:33:57pm

re: #3 samuraishake

I knew some people at the air force base here in Wichita that were pretty conservative. The base used to have some kind of mandatory bible-verse reading thing every day. Then the base made it optional, and they got pissed. I asked them why they were so pissed, seeing as the readings weren't being stopped, and they could keep doing it at their will. They didn't answer though...

Point being, I think some commanding officers get a bit overzealous when it comes to religion, and I'm starting to think it's more common than most realize...

We're being oppressed by you not letting us force you to believe the same things we do!

22 AntonSirius  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:34:29pm

re: #13 Conservative Moonbat

The burrowing started a long time before that.

Yup. Shit like this gives me the creeps. There's enough indoctrination going on in the military as it is without adding some fundamentalism into the mix too.

23 sagehen  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:36:36pm

I knew this sort of thing was a problem in the Air Force; I suppose I shouldn't be surprised to hear similar stories about the Army. And then we wonder why the Muslim world thinks we're out to get them.

Anyone want to give odds on how long it takes for this story to be picked up by Al Jazeera?

24 samuraishake  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:37:44pm

re: #16 freetoken

You never know, hate mail too might have something to do with the moon.

Or the gravitational pull from the combined girth of Rush, Gingrich & Gellar

25 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:37:44pm

From a freak in Irvine, California:

Pamela is a Jew. and all real Jews know what Islam and Sharia mean: dead Jews. A little ignorant homo like you should support her, not promote your enemy.

26 ronbeas  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:38:07pm

Onward Christian Solders - just preparing them for the next jihad crusade.

27 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:38:43pm

Unfortunately, this has been going on for awhile.

28 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:39:11pm

From a freak in LA:

Geez, look in the mirror asshole. Its YOU that's the hatemonger and
smear merchant. One question for you fuckwad: Are people that have a
different opinion than you always going to be libeled by your cowardly
posts?

29 sagehen  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:39:32pm

re: #22 AntonSirius

Yup. Shit like this gives me the creeps. There's enough indoctrination going on in the military as it is without adding some fundamentalism into the mix too.

When there was that weird incident awhile back with live nuclear missiles being flown halfway across country and almost shipped to an overseas unit before somebody caught on... and Gates had to fire a whole bunch of people... am I the only one who was paranoid enough to have wondered if it was really an accident due to sloppy bookkeeping?

30 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:40:44pm

re: #25 Charles

From a freak in Irvine, California:

as opposed to fake jews? I've got a plastic one on my dresser.

31 samuraishake  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:40:59pm

re: #28 Charles

Welcome to bizarro-world, where "religious tolerance"="hate"

32 Gus  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:41:08pm

Solider Spiritual Fitness

33 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:41:29pm

Oh Christian rock, you so crazy

34 Nervous Norvous  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:41:58pm

re: #25 Charles

From a freak in Irvine, California:

What is it these people have about calling other people homosexuals...methinks there's some projection going on.

35 Gus  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:42:19pm

Here's the general that initiated the Spiritual Fitness alongside the Comprehensive Soldier Fitness program.

General George William Casey Jr.
36th Chief of Staff of the United States Army

36 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:42:26pm

re: #27 Fozzie Bear

Religion as a tool for control. :( And it's military, so they're ripe for it. scary shit.

37 samuraishake  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:43:19pm

New poll - what do you prefer? Chris Rock, or Christian Rock?

38 Gus  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:43:32pm

FORT EUSTIS
U.S.Army Transportation Center
BRIGADIER GENERAL BRIAN R LAYER
COMMANDING GENERAL
CHIEF OF TRANSPORTATION
COMMANDANT, US ARMY TRANSPORTATION SCHOOL

39 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:44:25pm

From the linked article:

Those of us that chose not to attend (about 80, or a little less that half) were marched back to the company area. At that point the NCO issued us a punishment. We were to be on lock-down in the company (not released from duty), could not go anywhere on post (no PX, no library, etc). We were to go to strictly to the barracks and contact maintenance. If we were caught sitting in our rooms, in our beds, or having/handling electronics (cell phones, laptops, games) and doing anything other than maintenance, we would further have our weekend passes revoked and continue barracks maintenance for the entirety of the weekend. At that point the implied message was clear in my mind "we gave you a choice to either satisfy us or disappoint us. Since you chose to disappoint us you will now have your freedoms suspended and contact chores while the rest of your buddies are enjoying a concert."

Does anyone know what "maintenance" entails? Is it like KP, or cleaning toilets, or changing lightbulbs?

40 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:45:58pm

BARLOW GIRL BEAUTIFUL ENDING LEGENDADO

Shitty music makes the baby Jesus cry.

41 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:47:31pm

An increasingly evangelical military.
The most well-equipped and trained military in the world, by a mile.
Brewing inter-religious tension, domestically, and abroad.
An ascendant theocratic right wing.

What could go wrong?

42 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:47:35pm

re: #1 Walter L. Newton

Then I suspect the Commander in Chief should do something to stop this pronto.

Wow if only there wasn't a long standing culture of indoctrination and evangelical tribalism inside the armed forces that would take unbelieveable resources and inpainstaking investigation to root out, let along prosecute

Hey, president! Snap your fingers and eliminate organized crime!

Hey, president! Snap your fingers and eliminate rape!

hey president! Snap your fingers and eliminate poverty!

hey president! Snap your fingers and eliminate racism!

hey president! Snap your fingers and eliminate drug addiction!

And when it turns out the president can't actually weird magic and sprinkle fairy dust WELL I GUESS YHE'S A FAILURE HUR DE HURR TURNS OUT OUR STANDARDS JUST HAPPENED TO ELEVATE MASSIVELY TO UNHEARD OF HEIGHTS ON JANUARY 20TH, 2009

43 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:48:58pm

Firitual Spitness!

Love it or leave it.

44 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:49:01pm

re: #42 WindUpBird

Wow if only there wasn't a long standing culture of indoctrination and evangelical tribalism inside the armed forces that would take unbelieveable resources and inpainstaking investigation to root out, let along prosecute

Hey, president! Snap your fingers and eliminate organized crime!

Hey, president! Snap your fingers and eliminate rape!

hey president! Snap your fingers and eliminate poverty!

hey president! Snap your fingers and eliminate racism!

hey president! Snap your fingers and eliminate drug addiction!

And when it turns out the president can't actually weird magic and sprinkle fairy dust WELL I GUESS YHE'S A FAILURE HUR DE HURR TURNS OUT OUR STANDARDS JUST HAPPENED TO ELEVATE MASSIVELY TO UNHEARD OF HEIGHTS ON JANUARY 20TH, 2009

He could at least say something.

45 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:50:38pm

You know, I can see an Army chaplain putting on some kind of religious concert for interested service members, but not by a Commanding General as part of training. In America, religion is optional and it should be no different in the Armed Forces. There's a bunch of mutant Christians running around this country who think they own the place.

46 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:51:11pm

re: #40 Killgore Trout

BARLOW GIRL BEAUTIFUL ENDING LEGENDADO

[Video]

Shitty music makes the baby Jesus cry.

So does Autotune

47 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:51:22pm
Following the Apostle Paul’s message to the Ephesians in the Bible, Christian rock music’s edgy, all-girl band BarlowGirl brought the armor of God to the warriors and families of Fort Eustis during another installment of the Commanding General’s Spiritual Fitness Concert Series May 13 at Jacobs Theater.

Because you can't be trusted to kill the right people on command if you don't wear the fucking armor of God.

48 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:51:28pm

re: #44 Spare O'Lake

He could at least say something.

And the response would be "THE MUSLIM CRYPTO-FASCIST DICTATOR MASQUERADING AS A PRESIDENT HAS BEGUN HIS HOLY WAR AGAINST OUT ARMY OF GOD!!!!"

No, Obama would be absolutely retarded to publicly address this. This needs to be handles internally, by the generals. Obama should put pressure on them to do so, but it is a bad idea for Obama to try to publicly take this one head-on.

49 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:51:54pm

Good Christian rock (okay, prog-thrash) that isn't trying to manipulate people and drive them apart:

50 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:52:00pm

re: #48 Fozzie Bear

*OUR [army of God]

51 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:52:25pm

re: #48 Fozzie Bear

And the response would be "THE MUSLIM CRYPTO-FASCIST DICTATOR MASQUERADING AS A PRESIDENT HAS BEGUN HIS HOLY WAR AGAINST OUT ARMY OF GOD!!!"

No, Obama would be absolutely retarded to publicly address this. This needs to be handles internally, by the generals. Obama should put pressure on them to do so, but it is a bad idea for Obama to try to publicly take this one head-on.

How sad.

52 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:52:32pm

re: #44 Spare O'Lake

He could at least say something.

Somehow dude I don't think you're the best guy for Obama to be taking advice from

just a hunch

53 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:52:40pm

re: #51 Spare O'Lake

How sad.

lol concern

54 Stanghazi  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:53:38pm
55 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:53:41pm

re: #44 Spare O'Lake

He could at least say something.

And lose the next election?

56 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:54:28pm

re: #52 WindUpBird

Somehow dude I don't think you're the best guy for Obama to be taking advice from

just a hunch

I'll tell him you said that the next time he calls me.

57 Gus  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:54:47pm

Department of the Army
Pamphlet 600–63–12
The Army Health Promotion Program
Spiritual
Fitness

From 1987

58 Gus  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:54:57pm

Aha got something here!

59 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:55:40pm

re: #58 Gus 802

Aha got something here!

Try penicillin.

60 SilentAlfa  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:56:06pm

re: #42 WindUpBird

Wow if only there wasn't a long standing culture of indoctrination and evangelical tribalism inside the armed forces that would take unbelieveable resources and inpainstaking investigation to root out, let along prosecute

I think you're overstating the evangelization of the military as if most soldiers are mindless religious zealots, when the military represents the breadth of American society. The majority of veterans and current servicemen and women I know are actually not very religious at all nor do they seem to me to be vulnerable to the evangelicals. As the commander-in-chief, the President could have funding stopped for these kinds of 'spiritual fitness' programs and have a crackdown take place. This is one of the few times that he can in fact, snap his fingers and shit will get done.

Of course we all know the titanic political cost to him if he says anything at all though about our GLORIOUS CHRISTIAN CRUSADER ARMY.

61 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:56:23pm

More good Christian metal, from sweden

Sorta has a classic Queensryche/Solitude Aeturnus/Helloween vibe

62 Stanghazi  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:56:40pm

re: #51 Spare O'Lake

How sad.

What would you do without your daily Obama disappointment?

63 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:57:01pm

Let there be rock

That's what a Les Paul sound like when diddled correctly.
/Angus leison

64 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:57:17pm

re: #54 Stanley Sea

And never forget Rummy's reports to Pres. Bush on Iraq:

Image: screenshot-gq-articles-pics-and-more-on-menstyleco m-mozilla-firefox.jpg

Image: rumsfeld_intelligence_briefing_bible.jpg

Exactly. This isn't something that "just happened".

65 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:57:30pm

Funny how the Armor of God really isn't worth spit in a firefight, isn't it?

66 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:58:19pm

The event itself isn't what bothers me as much as the consequences for not attending it. That said, I think I'd find scrubbing latrines preferable.

67 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:58:21pm

re: #55 Conservative Moonbat

And lose the next election?

Politics trumps the sworn duty to uphold the constitution?

68 Gus  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:58:47pm

Army Regulation 600–63
Personnel—General
Army Health
Promotion
Rapid Action Revision (RAR) Issue Date: 20 September 2009

Chapter 6 -Spiritual Fitness (Page 25)

[...]

6–2. Spiritual fitness

a. Commanders at all levels shall encourage and provide for human self-development activities leading to increased spiritual fitness in accordance with this regulation, AR 600–20, AR 165–1, and other applicable directives.

b. Army leaders should develop an awareness of the lifestyles, cultural backgrounds, stages of development, possible relationships to religious beliefs, and the needs of their Soldiers, Army Civilians, and Family members. The CHPC will recommend, coordinate, and ensure the integration of spiritual fitness programs for units, Soldiers, Family members, and Army Civilians in their area of responsibility.

c. Commanders at the installation state JFHQ, DRU/MSC, and community level shall develop Soldiers and Family support activities to undergird, reinforce, and implement the enhancement of spiritual fitness. They will ensure time is scheduled for activities, programs, and training to accomplish the goals of spiritual fitness programs.

d. In providing for self-development activities, commanders and other leaders must ensure they do not favor one form of religion over another. The practice of religion, to the extent that it relates to spiritual fitness, must be left to the sole discretion of the Soldier, Family member, or Army Civilian. They must be free to worship or not worship as they choose without fear of being disciplined or stigmatized for their choice. (See AR 165–1 and AR 600–20).

e. All Soldiers and Army Civilians are expected to live by the tenets of the professional Army ethic and those individual values that support and sustain the Army way of life. (See FM 1.)

There it is:

They must be free to worship or not worship as they choose without fear of being disciplined or stigmatized for their choice. (See AR 165–1 and AR 600–20).

Their punishment was in violation of Army regulations.

69 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:59:21pm

re: #60 SilentAlfa

I think you're overstating the evangelization of the military as if most soldiers are mindless religious zealots, when the military represents the breadth of American society. The majority of veterans and current servicemen and women I know are actually not very religious at all nor do they seem to me to be vulnerable to the evangelicals. As the commander-in-chief, the President could have funding stopped for these kinds of 'spiritual fitness' programs and have a crackdown take place. This is one of the few times that he can in fact, snap his fingers and shit will get done.


I never asserted any of these things you're saying.

Evangeliation is part of the military, it's real, and it's real creepy. it's wholly and completely inappropriate. But I never said it's the majority. it's just more tribalist othering politics being injected into the armed forces. More of the right kind of people promoting the right kind of people.

There's plenty of stories of jews being fucked over and out in the military by the Christey Jesusey Warrior Fer Gawd majority, doesn't take much digging to find.

70 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:59:34pm

re: #62 Stanley Sea

What would you do without your daily Obama disappointment?

Fake concern! It tastes like hot dogs

71 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 8:59:42pm

re: #67 Spare O'Lake

Politics trumps the sworn duty to uphold the constitution?

He doesn't need to address the nation in response to this, you know.

72 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:00:16pm

re: #67 Spare O'Lake

Politics trumps the sworn duty to uphold the constitution?

MOAR CONCERN


Such weak sauce dude, come back when you got something stronger than heinz

73 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:00:18pm

re: #53 WindUpBird

lol concern

Most normal people would call it sarcasm.

74 swamprat  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:00:25pm

It is like the Dixie chicks

Only without the really good harmony, spectacular voices, and left-wing rhetoric.

Every instinct tells me there is a money aspect to this.
Call me a cynic.

75 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:02:25pm

re: #67 Spare O'Lake

Politics trumps the sworn duty to uphold the constitution?

Is it his sworn duty to make speeches for wingnuts like yourself so you can inevitably criticize him regardless of outcome, or is it his sworn duty to address problems as they arise?

76 jaunte  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:02:44pm

re: #57 Gus 802

Department of the Army
Pamphlet 600–63–12
The Army Health Promotion Program
Spiritual
Fitness

From 1987

Maybe the General hasn't read his own material:

(pg 4)
[Spiritual Fitness] Characteristics From A Theological Base.
(a) Faith (dependence on self and others).
(b) Belief in a positive outcome.
(c) Mature outlook (things which happen to me are not the end of the world).
(d) Forgiveness for myself and others.
(e) Conviction there is something beyond myself.
(f) Bonding (sensitivity to needs of others).
(g) Trust (confidence in self and others).
77 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:03:05pm

re: #62 Stanley Sea

What would you do without your daily Obama disappointment?

Yes he does seem to do so quite regularly.

78 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:04:41pm

If it's going to be that kind of party I might as well stick my dick into the potatoes.

79 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:05:06pm

re: #75 Fozzie Bear

Is it his sworn duty to make speeches for wingnuts like yourself so you can inevitably criticize him regardless of outcome, or is it his sworn duty to address problems as they arise?

Okay you're right, he should just remain silent in the face of this outrage.

80 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:06:19pm

The military is fed religious indoctrination in official documents handed down directly from the administration, years ago, no problem.

Obama fails to instantly fix the problem and make a speech about it, problem.

/

81 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:06:21pm

re: #68 Gus 802

Is there a consequence for the unlawful punishment that was done? I'm assuming it is just a reprimand, right?

82 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:06:28pm

re: #79 Spare O'Lake

Okay you're right, he should just remain silent in the face of this outrage.

Yes, he should. He has subordinates to address this.

83 freetoken  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:07:25pm

re: #76 jaunte

It seems to me that atheism is off the menu then, no?

84 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:08:08pm

re: #80 Fozzie Bear

The military is fed religious indoctrination in official documents handed down directly from the administration, years ago, no problem.

Obama fails to instantly fix the problem and make a speech about it, problem.

/

10% of the population already thinks he's the Antichrist. You don't see the problem with him doing that?

85 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:08:21pm

re: #71 JasonA

He doesn't need to address the nation in response to this, you know.

A presidential directive to the brass, intentionally leaked to the media, would be a top notch idea IMO.

86 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:08:36pm

Hells Bells

87 SilentAlfa  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:08:40pm

re: #69 WindUpBird

I never asserted any of these things you're saying.

Evangeliation is part of the military, it's real, and it's real creepy.

I'm sorry for misinterpreting you, but that's just the way it sounded to me, that it would unbelievable resources to stop generals from evangelizing their soldiers would imply that there are many many generals who are doing this.

88 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:09:26pm

re: #81 ProLifeLiberal

Is there a consequence for the unlawful punishment that was done? I'm assuming it is just a reprimand, right?

I haven't a clue, but what this General has done disrespects the faiths, or lack thereof, of these men. I won't say I'd like the man fired, but he deserves more than Obama's pouty face.

89 avanti  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:09:40pm

The midshipman I sponsored was a Evangelical Christian, and he was in a favored group at the Naval Academy. They got free housing, off base, while awaiting orders after graduation. It was provided by retired senior officers just for members of the prayer group.

90 Racer X  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:09:58pm

re: #44 Spare O'Lake

He could at least say something.

This is a trivial issue at best. Obama would do himself a favor by keeping his trap shut. There are times to show leadership, and times to delegate. This is a time for delegation.

91 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:10:03pm

re: #85 Spare O'Lake

A presidential directive to the brass, intentionally leaked to the media, would be a top notch idea IMO.

He should let Gates quietly handle it with as little fanfare as possible.

This one would be even more controversial than overturning DADT.

92 Mich-again  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:11:10pm

I don't listen to much of the so-called Christian pop music. None at all by choice, but occasionally I hear it from other people playing it. It all sounds so vanilla. No cutting edge stuff, just predictable combinations of formula music and formula lyrics. Suitable for elevators but only on the way up please...

93 Laughing Gas  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:11:49pm

If you know anything about U.S. military history, then you will know that Southerners have, from the beginning of the republic, been overrepresented in all ranks of the armed forces. It was the immigration of English landed nobility and Scots-Irish herdsmen into the South that was the reason for this. The South is also the stronghold of evangelical Christianity, so it's not a huge surprise that its religious culture has made an imprint on the military.

94 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:12:30pm

I'm sure it's a great comfort to the souls of wedding attendees in Afghanistan who get blown away by accident when a soldier behind a drone console in Nevada hits the wrong button on his joystick to know that he's a spiritually fit, brave little warrior.

95 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:12:31pm

re: #89 avanti

The midshipman I sponsored was a Evangelical Christian, and he was in a favored group at the Naval Academy. They got free housing, off base, while awaiting orders after graduation. It was provided by retired senior officers just for members of the prayer group.

Well, if retired senior officers gather together a prayer group, and make an offer to other Evangelical Christians - I don't see a problem with that. Should I? I mean, this sounds like a private arrangement for like-minded folks.

96 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:14:03pm

Roots, Bloody Roots

97 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:14:04pm

Namaste, y'all

98 Gus  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:14:05pm

Army Chaplain Corps Activities

Chapter 2
Religious Support in the Army
2–1. General

a. Commanders provide opportunities for the free exercise of religion through their Chaplains, Chaplain Assistants, and other religious support members.

b. Participation in religious activities is voluntary. However, Army personnel may be required to provide administrative support before, during, or after worship services or religious activities in support of the CMRP.

99 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:14:34pm

re: #96 Conservative Moonbat

Roots, Bloody Roots


[Video]

I haven't heard this in a long time.

100 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:14:37pm

There is a really really good reason that Jefferson argued for a wall of separation between church and state. If you involve religion in anything publicly funded, it will taint not only the government, but also the religion.

Why do Americans so often fail to get that?

101 Lidane  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:14:55pm

re: #44 Spare O'Lake

He could at least say something.

Right. Do you honestly believe that a President who is currently being shit on for being a Super Seekrit Mooslim Usurper or, alternatively, "a Christian that other Christians don't recognize" is going to say anything about religion in the military?

If I was him, I'd just punt that ball to Gates and be done with it.

102 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:15:10pm

re: #99 JasonA

I haven't heard this in a long time.

It's a bit of a high school throwback for me too

103 jaunte  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:15:13pm

re: #83 freetoken

It seems to me that atheism is off the menu then, no?

re: #83 freetoken

It seems to me that atheism is off the menu then, no?

There's a second section of attributes in the document that sound more secular.
I can see the value of tsome sort of program for mental health, but it can easy get twisted.

2) The Spiritually Healthy Person. Modified from Traits of a Healthy Family by Dolores Curran
(a) Communicates and listens.
(b) Affirms and supports others.
(c) Respects others.
(d) Has a sense of trust.
(e) Has a sense of play and humor.
(f) Has a sense of shared responsibility.
(g) Has a sense of right and wrong.
(h) Has a strong sense of family in which rituals and traditions abound.
(i) Contributes to a balance of interaction among group members.
(j) Shares a (belief) core.
(k) Respects the privacy of others.
(l) Values service to others.
(m) Fosters family table time and conversation.
(n) Shares leisure time.
(o) Admits to and seeks help with problems.


It's all in the execution.

104 webevintage  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:15:31pm

re: #41 Fozzie Bear

An increasingly evangelical military.
The most well-equipped and trained military in the world, by a mile.
Brewing inter-religious tension, domestically, and abroad.
An ascendant theocratic right wing.

What could go wrong?

and people laugh at me when I mutter things like "the handmaiden's tale".....

105 freetoken  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:15:35pm

I wonder how the investigation will come out?

Army Probes Claim Soldiers Punished For Not Attending Christian Concert

The Army is investigating a claim that dozens of soldiers who refused to attend a Christian band's concert at a Virginia military post were banished to their barracks and told to clean them up.

A Fort Eustis spokesman confirmed the probe Friday to The Associated Press.

Pvt. Anthony Smith told AP that he was among those who objected to attending the May concert by BarlowGirl.

Smith said soldiers were pressured into going to the show and when they didn't, they were ordered to return to their barracks.

106 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:15:49pm

re: #95 reine.de.tout

Well, if retired senior officers gather together a prayer group, and make an offer to other Evangelical Christians - I don't see a problem with that. Should I? I mean, this sounds like a private arrangement for like-minded folks.

I do wonder if others had the option of staying off-base as well, or was this prayer group given special privileges.

107 freetoken  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:16:28pm

re: #103 jaunte

It's all in the execution.

They said that about the Trojan Horse, too.

108 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:16:31pm

re: #105 freetoken

I wonder how the investigation will come out?

Army Probes Claim Soldiers Punished For Not Attending Christian Concert

Not much actual "punishment" there, I must say.

109 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:16:41pm

re: #104 webevintage

I've never heard of this. Can you explain it?

110 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:17:15pm

re: #94 Cato the Elder

I'm sure it's a great comfort to the souls of wedding attendees in Afghanistan who get blown away by accident when a soldier behind a drone console in Nevada hits the wrong button on his joystick to know that he's a spiritually fit, brave little warrior.

Civilian casualties should be inflicted by heathens wherever possible.

111 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:17:22pm

re: #92 Mich-again

Suitable for elevators but only on the way up please...

Elevator music, Texas 1966.

The Kingdom of Heaven is within you!

112 swamprat  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:17:40pm

The motorcycle 'Black Madonna', two-wheeled gypsy queen
And her silver-studded phantom cause the gray flannel dwarf to scream
As he weeps to wicked birds of prey, pick up on his bread crumb sins
And there are no sins inside the Gates of Eden

At dawn my lover comes to me and tells me of her dreams
With no attempts to shovel the glimpse
Into the ditch of what each one means
At times I think there are no words but these to tell what's true
And there are no truths outside the Gates of Eden

113 webevintage  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:17:44pm

"2) The Spiritually Healthy Person. Modified from Traits of a Healthy Family by Dolores Curran....
(m) Fosters family table time and conversation."

Our family "table time" occurs around the TV watching The Daily Show and eating. Oh, the conversations we have.....

114 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:18:35pm

re: #108 Cato the Elder

Not much actual "punishment" there, I must say.

That article's a little short on details. From the original up top:

At the theater we were instructed to split in two groups; those that want to attend versus those that don't. At that point what crossed my mind is the fact that being given an option so late in the game implies that the leadership is attempting to make a point about its intention. The "body language" was suggesting that "we marched you here as a group to give you a clue that we really want you to attend (we tilt the table and expect you to roll in our direction), now we give you the choice to either satisfy us or disappoint us." A number of soldiers seemed to notice these clues and sullenly volunteered for the concert in fear of possible consequences.

Those of us that chose not to attend (about 80, or a little less that half) were marched back to the company area. At that point the NCO issued us a punishment. We were to be on lock-down in the company (not released from duty), could not go anywhere on post (no PX, no library, etc). We were to go to strictly to the barracks and contact maintenance. If we were caught sitting in our rooms, in our beds, or having/handling electronics (cell phones, laptops, games) and doing anything other than maintenance, we would further have our weekend passes revoked and continue barracks maintenance for the entirety of the weekend. At that point the implied message was clear in my mind "we gave you a choice to either satisfy us or disappoint us. Since you chose to disappoint us you will now have your freedoms suspended and contact chores while the rest of your buddies are enjoying a concert."

At that evening, nine of us chose to pursue an EO complaint. I was surprised to find out that a couple of the most offended soldiers were actually Christian themselves (Catholic). One of them was grown as a child in Cuba and this incident enraged him particularly as it brought memories of oppression.

115 prairiefire  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:18:39pm

re: #104 webevintage

and people laugh at me when I mutter things like "the handmaiden's tale"...

I can remember a talking head with a military background saying several years ago, "You don't want to disallow recruiting on liberal campuses...", implying the military needs liberal minded folks as well as conservative.
There's a great quote about that, I need to look for it.

116 avanti  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:18:44pm

re: #95 reine.de.tout

Well, if retired senior officers gather together a prayer group, and make an offer to other Evangelical Christians - I don't see a problem with that. Should I? I mean, this sounds like a private arrangement for like-minded folks.

Maybe not, but it was well known that ignoring religious services was not the best career path for a mid.

117 jaunte  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:19:35pm

re: #113 webevintage

"(h) Has a strong sense of family in which rituals and traditions abound."
Hey everyone, it's Jon Stewart time!

118 webevintage  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:19:51pm

re: #109 ProLifeLiberal

I've never heard of this. Can you explain it?

It is a book by Margaret Atwood...scared me for life.

The Handmaid's Tale is set in the near future in the Republic of Gilead, a country formed within the borders of what was formerly the United States of America. It was founded by a racist, male chauvinist, nativist, theocratic-organized military coup as an ideologically-driven response to the pervasive ecological, physical and social degradation of the country. Beginning with a staged terrorist attack (blamed on Muslim terrorists) that kills the President, a movement calling itself the "Sons of Jacob" launched a revolution under the pretext of restoring order, ousting Congress, and suspending the U.S. Constitution. Given electronic banking they were quickly able to freeze the assets of all women and other "undesirables" in the country, stripping their rights away. The new theocratic military dictatorship, styled "The Republic of Gilead", moved quickly to consolidate its power and reorganize society along a new militarized, hierarchical, compulsorily-Christian regime of Old Testament-inspired social and religious orthodoxy among its newly-created social classes.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

119 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:20:20pm

re: #106 JasonA

I do wonder if others had the option of staying off-base as well, or was this prayer group given special privileges.

Retired officers (private citizens) making a privately funded and arranged offer to a like-minded group. I just don't see a problem with it.

120 Lidane  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:21:12pm

re: #111 Kreuzueber Halbmond

Upding for the 13th Floor Elevators link. Awesome. :D

121 avanti  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:21:26pm

re: #106 JasonA

I do wonder if others had the option of staying off-base as well, or was this prayer group given special privileges.

They had the option, but it was not free. Of course, the free housing included some hard core Bible study, but my Mid did not mind that at all.

122 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:21:29pm

re: #119 reine.de.tout

Retired officers (private citizens) making a privately funded and arranged offer to a like-minded group. I just don't see a problem with it.

As I said, I might not either, but were other members of the class allowed to live off-base as well?

123 webevintage  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:21:41pm

re: #118 webevintage

It is a book by Margaret Atwood...scared me for life.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

all I know is I'd be working out in the radiation fields....or maybe in Canada if I was lucky.

124 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:22:08pm

re: #116 avanti

Maybe not, but it was well known that ignoring religious services was not the best career path for a mid.

OK, I see that point.

So . . . having this housing made available by retired officers somehow gave these guys a leg up over people who attended services of non-Evangelical denominations?

Is your problem with the housing, or is your problem with the fact that an emphasis was placed on attending religious services? Which of course, should be strictly up to each individual to decide.

125 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:22:12pm

re: #121 avanti

They had the option, but it was not free. Of course, the free housing included some hard core Bible study, but my Mid did not mind that at all.

Okay. No, I can't summon any outrage over this.

126 Gus  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:22:41pm

Here you go. An article about the concert:

Jacobs Theater echoes with love, war during spiritual fitness concert

By Lyna Tucker. Assistant Editor

Following the Apostle Paul’s message to the Ephesians in the Bible, Christian rock music’s edgy, all-girl band BarlowGirl brought the armor of God to the warriors and families of Fort Eustis during another installment of the Commanding General’s Spiritual Fitness Concert Series May 13 at Jacobs Theater.

With their unique heavy metal-alternative rock-contemporary Christian music blend, sisters Alyssa, Lauren and Rebecca Barlow rocked the full house of Soldiers and family members with selections from their latest project “Love & War” as well as other selections from earlier albums.

In her opening statement, Alyssa thanked the crowd not only for attending the concert but also for their service to the country.

“I love that you love something enough to put your life on the line for it,” she said. “You’ve chosen not to take a comfortable path, and God uses people like you to change the world.”

“We’ve travelled the world and we’ve seen Soldiers in every airport, and we cry because every day we hear about people who have given their life for love. Because of you saying ‘yes’ some of us get to have a beautiful life and if I could, I’d bring people here so that they can see what a beautiful life really is,” Alyssa told the crowd.

The trio believe they are sent to help arm today’s warriors for the battles ahead, both spiritual and physical, and they do so with songs like “Our Worlds Collide,” “Tears Fall,” “Running Out of Time,” and “Stay with Me.”

In a post-show interview, Lauren stated the trio is on a mission to bring the armor of God to servicemembers, and for her, doing so is a high calling.

“Every time God talks to us, it’s all about fighting for what you believe in, fighting for what God’s put in your heart, so I believe that although we’re being reminded of how to do it in the spiritual, they’re (the Soldiers) actually doing it in the physical, so it’s a privilege for us to be here,” she said.

Rebecca agreed.

Continues.

127 Racer X  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:23:21pm

re: #110 Spare O'Lake

Civilian casualties should be inflicted by heathens wherever possible.

We need to take it farther than that even. All lethal weapons should be banned. If someone does something we don't like, immediate action will be taken in the form of a cloud of unicorn farts. This cloud will safely render all potential combatants into a state of hopey bliss, where we can then assume control of all of their earthly possessions and natural resources. Once the enemy returns to a state of awareness they will immediately comply with our requests for submission; failing that, there will be a second, and perhaps even a third, unleashing of the cloud.

128 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:23:26pm

re: #114 JasonA

That article's a little short on details. From the original up top:

I retract my earlier statement and maintain the opposite. This is not only punishment, it is religious harassment.

And I, if I were a Catholic soldier, would not choose to be "entertained" by a group of fundamentalist girl singers, either.

But then there's also a reason why I'm a "bad Catholic" in some people's eyes: the entire military-hierarchical "check your brains at the door" lifestyle has never been for me.

129 prairiefire  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:23:38pm

Found it. This is a tag line used by a high school classmate who is in the national Guard: "The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." - Thucydides

130 The Shadow Do  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:23:58pm

Is "spiritual fitness" codified or is it the brainchild/initiative of a general or three?
If it is a point of evaluation for command then I can more easily see how this crap can get out of control.

131 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:24:07pm

re: #114 JasonA

That article's a little short on details. From the original up top:

Whew...I thought they were stoned, or given 40 lashes.
There was no real "punishment" here at all, but they were ordered to attend and then humiliated, and that was dead wrong.

132 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:24:23pm

This is a really good fucking beer, guys

[Link: www.newbelgium.com...]

If you want a seriously fantabulous summer beer, right there

133 Mich-again  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:24:25pm

re: #111 Kreuzueber Halbmond

That was just dreadful. Yikes.

(uhh, that wasn't your old band was it?)

134 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:24:47pm

If I were in the military, I sure would not want them fiddling around with my religious beliefs or attendance at services.

Particularly if there is some emphasis on some sort of evangelical style of Christianity. My flavor of Catholicism isn't considered "evangelical" as I understand the type of Christianity that usually refers to.

135 avanti  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:25:21pm

This is very much on topic:

The cancer from within.

136 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:26:38pm

Listen to this Lt. Colonel at about 0:58 and tell me why any atheist would want to join the armed forces.

137 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:26:57pm

re: #128 Cato the Elder

I retract my earlier statement and maintain the opposite. This is not only punishment, it is religious harassment.

And I, if I were a Catholic soldier, would not choose to be "entertained" by a group of fundamentalist girl singers, either.

But then there's also a reason why I'm a "bad Catholic" in some people's eyes: the entire military-hierarchical "check your brains at the door" lifestyle has never been for me.

A Catholic is supposed to examine his/her conscience and make decisions accordingly; which is why we can be in complete disagreement with our priest (or the Pope on many matters) and still not be wrong.

I wouldn't choose to go to a fundamentalist concert, either.

138 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:27:32pm

re: #116 avanti

Maybe not, but it was well known that ignoring religious services was not the best career path for a mid.

It all boils down to who you socialize with, what facade you use

Hell, even at my health care job, which was pretty low stakes, there were employees who All Went To Church Together And All Happened To have Very Good Assignments And Never Seemed To Ever have Any Problems.

less about religion, more about the tribe, gotta be part of the tribe, gotta make the right moves to let the tribe leaders know you're the right kind of guy, that they can trust you, that you're not one of "them"

Just stuff you observe

139 Mich-again  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:27:39pm

re: #132 WindUpBird

Sounds very nice, but I like good old fashioned union made American macro brew. urp. Budweiser. Cold beer and fresh dip too. Pure Downriver here..

140 Gus  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:28:37pm

re: #136 JasonA

Listen to this Lt. Colonel at about 0:58 and tell me why any atheist would want to join the armed forces.

[Video]

What a piece of shit.

141 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:28:47pm

re: #139 Mich-again

Sounds very nice, but I like good old fashioned union made American macro brew. urp. Budweiser. Cold beer and fresh dip too. Pure Downriver here..

I travel across the country solely to taste unusual beer, so it's pretty clear where I stand :D

142 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:29:00pm

re: #112 swamprat

Great song, wrong singer.

Arlo Guthrie is to Dylan what "Christian rock" is to rock.

143 Gus  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:29:10pm

Yeah. They'll investigate.

The Thin Green Line

144 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:29:15pm

re: #132 WindUpBird

This is a really good fucking beer, guys

[Link: www.newbelgium.com...]

If you want a seriously fantabulous summer beer, right there

I'll have to try it. I like most of NB's others. I really liked their summer beer this year, I forget what it was called. Cascade hops with a touch of lime. Oddly enough I'm not that fond of Fat Tire though.

145 jaunte  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:30:20pm

re: #57 Gus 802

Department of the Army
Pamphlet 600–63–12
The Army Health Promotion Program
Spiritual
Fitness

From 1987

Take a look at (page 19-20 of the 24).
Appendix C
Sample Religious Devotional

146 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:30:57pm

re: #141 WindUpBird

I travel across the country solely to taste unusual beer, so it's pretty clear where I stand :D

[Link: www.yazoobrew.com...]

147 prairiefire  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:32:02pm

re: #138 WindUpBird

It all boils down to who you socialize with, what facade you use

Hell, even at my health care job, which was pretty low stakes, there were employees who All Went To Church Together And All Happened To have Very Good Assignments And Never Seemed To Ever have Any Problems.

less about religion, more about the tribe, gotta be part of the tribe, gotta make the right moves to let the tribe leaders know you're the right kind of guy, that they can trust you, that you're not one of "them"

Just stuff you observe

Yep, I never fit into that type of tribe. I'm Christian and went to a conservative Christian college. Just~did~not~fit~in.

148 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:32:03pm

re: #144 Conservative Moonbat

I'll have to try it. I like most of NB's others. I really liked their summer beer this year, I forget what it was called. Cascade hops with a touch of lime. Oddly enough I'm not that fond of Fat Tire though.

My favorite NB beers are the Biere Mars, The Trippel, and the Mothership. and Fat Tire and 1554 and Skinny Dip and oh my the Abbey too

They're just really good at beer *_*

149 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:32:29pm

re: #133 Mich-again

No, wasn't in the band. These guys were pioneers of psychedelic rock. Met a couple of them along the way, though.
You might like this one better:

150 Gus  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:33:52pm

re: #145 jaunte

Take a look at (page 19-20 of the 24).
Appendix C
Sample Religious Devotional

Was looking at those before. This one is OK:

C–7.
And like any good nutrition program, refraining from certain things will decrease our spiritual fat:

a. Jealousy
b. Boastfulness
c. Arrogance
d. Rudeness
e. Self-centeredness
f. Resentment
g. Irritability

151 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:34:01pm

re: #147 prairiefire

Yep, I never fit into that type of tribe. I'm Christian and went to a conservative Christian college. Just~did~not~fit~in.

I went to a lutheran college for two years. What a mistake! I had like one guy in the drama department I played Magic with, and a couple weirdos in the art department that I ever talked to. Nice place, nice people, but I had no earthly idea what I was doing there. After I transferred to a proper art school I wa slike "FUCK FINALLY! Here's where all the twitchy driven shutin artist weirdos are!"

152 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:35:04pm

re: #149 Kreuzueber Halbmond

Psychedelic rock, yes plz!

Being a youngun, I'm into newer doom and psychedelic metal, but I'm right there

153 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:35:56pm

re: #148 WindUpBird

My favorite NB beers are the Biere Mars, The Trippel, and the Mothership. and Fat Tire and 1554 and Skinny Dip and oh my the Abbey too

They're just really good at beer *_*

Yeah, skinny dip was the one I was thinking of. We don't get a huge range of their stuff in the southeast, but I like everything I've tried but I'm not crazy about fat tire. I can't put my finger on why.

I'm going on a beer run now actually. BBIB.

154 jaunte  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:35:59pm

re: #150 Gus 802

a. Jealousy
b. Boastfulness
c. Arrogance
d. Rudeness
e. Self-centeredness
f. Resentment
g. Irritability

Sounds like our average AGW, Biology, or Mosque comment thread.

155 Gus  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:36:58pm

re: #154 jaunte

a. Jealousy
b. Boastfulness
c. Arrogance
d. Rudeness
e. Self-centeredness
f. Resentment
g. Irritability

Sounds like our average AGW, Biology, or Mosque comment thread.

Yeah. Or a typical day amongst people or even ourselves.

156 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:37:22pm

re: #131 Spare O'Lake

Whew...I thought they were stoned, or given 40 lashes.
There was no real "punishment" here at all, but they were ordered to attend and then humiliated, and that was dead wrong.

Oh. Well, would you like to retract your earlier statements which made it clear that you thought Obama should say something? You can take those back if you like, and admit you were wrong.

157 Mich-again  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:38:04pm

re: #141 WindUpBird

I travel across the country solely to taste unusual beer, so it's pretty clear where I stand :D

What a concept. A road trip to taste beer. Now thats dedication.

158 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:38:13pm

re: #153 Conservative Moonbat

Yeah, skinny dip was the one I was thinking of. We don't get a huge range of their stuff in the southeast, but I like everything I've tried but I'm not crazy about fat tire. I can't put my finger on why.

I'm going on a beer run now actually. BBIB.

The Skinny Dip is a 9.5, The Mothership is a 10. They're both so good *_*

The Fat Tire is a very nutty amber, almost like it's an amber with a nut brown happening

I like it, but I'm sorta sick of it, because there's such better ambers and it just happenes to be in so many pubs here. I like Bridgeport's ESB much more.

159 webevintage  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:38:25pm

re: #137 reine.de.tout

A Catholic is supposed to examine his/her conscience and make decisions accordingly; which is why we can be in complete disagreement with our priest (or the Pope on many matters) and still not be wrong.

I wouldn't choose to go to a fundamentalist concert, either.


Or let my kid go to one.

160 sagehen  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:38:56pm

re: #95 reine.de.tout

Well, if retired senior officers gather together a prayer group, and make an offer to other Evangelical Christians - I don't see a problem with that. Should I? I mean, this sounds like a private arrangement for like-minded folks.

If those retired senior officers are collecting info on which cadets are Jesusy enough to recommend to their non-retired senior officer friends as being worthy of special notice to help advance their careers...

Yeah, it's a problem.

When the football coach at the Air Force Academy has a banner up in their locker room that they're playing for team Jesus. When senior officers are telling each other their loyalty priorities are 1. Jesus, 2. Family, 3. Country, and teaching Academy cadets that should be their loyalty priority as well. When Evangelical chaplains are trying to convert Mormon and Lutheran and Catholic and Episcopalian soldiers. When Jewish and Muslim cadets who don't attend Sunday chapel are instead marched across campus to some assigned task (not personal time) in what's known on campus as The Heathen Parade...

161 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:38:57pm

re: #157 Mich-again

What a concept. A road trip to taste beer. Now thats dedication.

I flew to the Great American beer festival. A road trip would be awesome! But I haven't done that yet. I might do a trip down the coast to Ft Bragg to go to North Coast brewing, though

162 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:39:01pm

Elbruce has some stuff to say about apartheid on the previous thread.

163 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:39:44pm

re: #159 webevintage

Or let my kid go to one.

It's all about sneaking out as a teenager to go to concerts :D

164 prairiefire  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:39:51pm

re: #151 WindUpBird

My gay BFF and I met at college. We were fast friends, super tight, did lots of things together. He would play piano in a practise room sometimes and I would dance around. Later, after he came out and we were both not so naive, we realized of course we were tight. We were two of the few people on that campus that were intellectual subversives, liberals.
He is an architect in St. Louis now and I love him so much.

165 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:40:14pm

re: #162 SanFranciscoZionist

Elbruce has some stuff to say about apartheid on the previous thread.

uhoh

I'm not really in a mood to argue with LGF hrglblrgr

166 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:40:35pm

re: #150 Gus 802

Was looking at those before. This one is OK:

And like any good nutrition program, refraining from certain things will decrease our spiritual fat:

a. Jealousy
b. Boastfulness
c. Arrogance
d. Rudeness
e. Self-centeredness
f. Resentment
g. Irritability

But if your commanding officer gets orders from the King, who is jealous of the neighboring realm, boastful of his kingly balls, arrogant to non-nobles, rude to servants, self-centered in all things, resentful of people who can properly pronounce the word "nuclear", and irritable because he's a dry drunk, to go and kill all those people over there, it is your duty as a spiritually fit soldier to carry out those orders without a second thought.

167 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:41:48pm

Why can't we keep our damn religion to ourselves in this country?

168 Gus  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:42:10pm

re: #166 Cato the Elder

But if your commanding officer gets orders from the King, who is jealous of the neighboring realm, boastful of his kingly balls, arrogant to non-nobles, rude to servants, self-centered in all things, resentful of people who can properly pronounce the word "nuclear", and irritable because he's a dry drunk, to go and kill all those people over there, it is your duty as a spiritually fit soldier to carry out those orders without a second thought.

I was going to say. We all know how generals are never boastful, arrogant, rude or self-centered.

/

169 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:42:23pm

re: #164 prairiefire

My gay BFF and I met at college. We were fast friends, super tight, did lots of things together. He would play piano in a practise room sometimes and I would dance around. Later, after he came out and we were both not so naive, we realized of course we were tight. We were two of the few people on that campus that were intellectual subversives, liberals.
He is an architect in St. Louis now and I love him so much.

raaaaa-a-a-a-a-ad :D

Sometimes I think I missed out on the proper college experience by just being a jittery workaholic...

And then I realize I'm behaving NOW the way people traditionally do in college, hahah

it's all very strange to me o_o

170 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:42:52pm

re: #161 WindUpBird

I flew to the Great American beer festival. A road trip would be awesome! But I haven't done that yet. I might do a trip down the coast to Ft Bragg to go to North Coast brewing, though

Um...mightn't a beer-drinking road trip pose certain risks to your license to drive?

171 prairiefire  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:43:29pm

For my B. "Long Way Home"

172 webevintage  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:43:29pm

re: #163 WindUpBird

It's all about sneaking out as a teenager to go to concerts :D

Heh.
"Listen you can go see ACDC*, but I had better not catch you sneaking out to go see BarlowGirl."

*(I have no idea who teenagers would have to sneak out to see.)

173 sagehen  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:43:37pm

re: #109 ProLifeLiberal

I've never heard of this. Can you explain it?

The Handmaid's Tale

174 Mr Pancakes  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:44:05pm

re: #157 Mich-again

What a concept. A road trip to taste beer. Now thats dedication.

I did that with a friend of mine, we traveled the world drinking beer....... we bought a map and some map pins.

175 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:45:03pm

re: #170 Cato the Elder

Um...mightn't a beer-drinking road trip pose certain risks to your license to drive?

Well, you don't do it all at once! You drive to eugene, you set up camp, you hit some brewpubs, you crash, you wake up, you have some coffee, you drive to Arcata, you set up camp, you go find some pubs, repeat forever

Or at least that's how my friends did it :D

176 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:45:34pm

re: #174 Mr Pancakes

I did that with a friend of mine, we traveled the world drinking beer... we bought a map and some map pins.

When i was in Europe, I didn't go to belgium JUST for beer, but beer was a big focus of my time when I was there :D

177 Gus  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:45:44pm

I'm sorry but these people are weird.

178 Reginald Perrin  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:46:49pm

re: #162 SanFranciscoZionist

Elbruce has some stuff to say about apartheid on the previous thread.

SFZ
I know ElBruce and can vouch that he isn't here to troll.
He is into intellectual debate and never plays games. I am not enamoured of his choice of thread, this is a touchy subject here. Give him a chance and debate him fairly, I promise you will have a debate with a real adult

179 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:47:24pm

re: #172 webevintage

Heh.
"Listen you can go see ACDC*, but I had better not catch you sneaking out to go see BarlowGirl."

*(I have no idea who teenagers would have to sneak out to see.)

"If I find you at a Michael W Smith show, you're grounded for a month!"


*If the teenager is a nerdy metalhead like me, probably At The Gates or Baroness or Dragonforce or Mastodon or Dethklok or Municipal Waste

180 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:47:25pm

re: #160 sagehen

If those retired senior officers are collecting info on which cadets are Jesusy enough to recommend to their non-retired senior officer friends as being worthy of special notice to help advance their careers...

Yes, a problem if that's happening. Did you see any evidence of that in what Avanti stated? I'm going strictly on the words Avanti used. This is a problem IF it results in favors for this particular group. Does it? I asked upthread and haven't seen an answer.

When the football coach at the Air Force Academy has a banner up in their locker room that they're playing for team Jesus.

Yes, a problem

When senior officers are telling each other their loyalty priorities are 1. Jesus, 2. Family, 3. Country, and teaching Academy cadets that should be their loyalty priority as well.

Well, I personally would not be particularly real comfortable with telling people they must DENY their faith or prohibiting them from expressing it.

When Evangelical chaplains are trying to convert Mormon and Lutheran and Catholic and Episcopalian soldiers.


Yes, a problem. I'm not sure a group of retired officers providing housing to like-minded cadets is exactly an attempt to convert. Unless there's a LOT more to that story.

When Jewish and Muslim cadets who don't attend Sunday chapel are instead marched across campus to some assigned task (not personal time) in what's known on campus as The Heathen Parade...

Yes, a problem.

181 elbruce  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:47:29pm

re: #165 WindUpBird

uhoh

I'm not really in a mood to argue with LGF hrglblrgr

Me neither.

182 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:48:02pm

re: #178 Reginald Perrin

SFZ
I know ElBruce and can vouch that he isn't here to troll.
He is into intellectual debate and never plays games. I am not enamoured of his choice of thread, this is a touchy subject here. Give him a chance and debate him fairly, I promise you will have a debate with a real adult

What are his opinions on black metal versus death metal

183 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:48:31pm

re: #181 elbruce

Me neither.

This is a good beer! [Link: beeradvocate.com...]

184 sagehen  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:48:46pm

re: #124 reine.de.tout

OK, I see that point.

So . . . having this housing made available by retired officers somehow gave these guys a leg up over people who attended services of non-Evangelical denominations?

Is your problem with the housing, or is your problem with the fact that an emphasis was placed on attending religious services? Which of course, should be strictly up to each individual to decide.

The retired officers act as scouts for sufficiently religious cadets and junior officers (of the "right" denomination) to tell the active duty officers in their other prayer group to look out for and help advance.

185 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:49:10pm

re: #159 webevintage

Or let my kid go to one.

If my kid is in the military . . . he's an adult and I'm outta the decision-making.

186 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:49:19pm

re: #175 WindUpBird

Well, you don't do it all at once! You drive to eugene, you set up camp, you hit some brewpubs, you crash, you wake up, you have some coffee, you drive to Arcata, you set up camp, you go find some pubs, repeat forever

Or at least that's how my friends did it :D

OK, I'm in!

187 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:49:29pm

re: #178 Reginald Perrin

SFZ
I know ElBruce and can vouch that he isn't here to troll.
He is into intellectual debate and never plays games. I am not enamoured of his choice of thread, this is a touchy subject here. Give him a chance and debate him fairly, I promise you will have a debate with a real adult

As I said below, that's good to hear.

Going to need some clarity from him on this ID card business, though.

188 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:50:07pm

re: #184 sagehen

The retired officers act as scouts for sufficiently religious cadets and junior officers (of the "right" denomination) to tell the active duty officers in their other prayer group to look out for and help advance.

Really?
Is that what Avanti said?

Well, of course that's a problem, if that's what's happening. I just didn't get that from what Avanti said.

189 elbruce  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:51:50pm

re: #178 Reginald Perrin

SFZ
I know ElBruce and can vouch that he isn't here to troll.
He is into intellectual debate and never plays games. I am not enamoured of his choice of thread, this is a touchy subject here. Give him a chance and debate him fairly, I promise you will have a debate with a real adult

Thanks for the recommend! I'm middle-lefty "progressive," but fair to the point of swinging conservative on select issues, routinely snarky and cruel only when necessary. I offer no quarter, nor expect none.

If I started with an Israel/Palestinian thread, that's only because it was the only thread that I could find when I happened to check over here that had less than 900+ comments already. The sheer quantity is a bit intimidating.

190 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:52:44pm

re: #189 elbruce

Thanks for the recommend! I'm middle-lefty "progressive," but fair to the point of swinging conservative on select issues, routinely snarky and cruel only when necessary. I offer no quarter, nor expect none.

If I started with an Israel/Palestinian thread, that's only because it was the only thread that I could find when I happened to check over here that had less than 900+ comments already. The sheer quantity is a bit intimidating.

You'll get the hang of it.

191 elbruce  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:53:14pm

re: #183 WindUpBird

This is a good beer! [Link: beeradvocate.com...]

Drinking Inverson IPA. One of the many perks of being an Oregonian.

192 webevintage  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:55:48pm

This thread needs some kittahs and Herb Albert and the Tijuana Brass:

193 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:55:54pm

re: #189 elbruce


If I started with an Israel/Palestinian thread, that's only because it was the only thread that I could find when I happened to check over here that had less than 900+ comments already. The sheer quantity is a bit intimidating.

This Ground Zero Terrorist Command Center situation is serious business. We talk about it a lot.

194 sagehen  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:57:29pm

re: #167 JasonA

Why can't we keep our damn religion to ourselves in this country?

Because for Evangelicals, a central tenet of their faith is that they're required to evangelize.

195 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:58:24pm

A little something else to counter the influence of Christian Rock on the thread:

196 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:58:47pm

Of course, not only the American military but all armies in history have always been shot through with religion and religious justifications for their existence and their activities. This is entirely understandable since in many instances military success was and is the necessary prerequisite for social survival.

It's when things get twisted around so that you're not serving society so much as God Himself that it gets dicey. There were plenty of Germans in WWII who honestly felt that way about their service.

Somewhere in the vasty depths of my library I have a little pamphlet written by a retired Marine about spiritual warriorhood that was meant to be distributed as a freebie to current Marines. I can't put my hands on it at the moment, but the assertions made therein make anything like these "spiritual fitness" concerts seem pansy-assed.

Of course I know Marines and former Marines who are total atheists, and whose interest in the Corps was to test themselves, be the best soldiers and killing machines they could become, and screw the rest.

If I were in charge of a battle, I'd want a preponderance of those guys in my regiment and not the weirdos who think they're automatically doing God's work.

197 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:58:55pm

re: #191 elbruce

Drinking Inverson IPA. One of the many perks of being an Oregonian.

I'm in SE Portland, near Mt Scott, whassup? :D

198 elbruce  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 9:58:56pm

As an aside, I was F5'ing ThinkProgress around the exact time that the LGF webmaster dude decided to come to us to announce his big switch from neocon to moderate. Which by the way, I must say counts as one of the most significant ideological changeovers I can think of in 20th/21st C. politics at any level. I actually remember seeing those posts where he was practically begging us "progressives" to come check him out...

It's taken me a few years to take him seriously, but since I've heard from around the way that LGF has become a better (more even) mix of lib/con discussion, I'm deciding to look into it now. Looks pretty lively so far.

Smart people here, from all angles. I hope I can keep up.

199 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:00:00pm

re: #194 sagehen

Because for Evangelicals, a central tenet of their faith is that they're required to evangelize.

One more thing that I like about the Jewish people. No proselytizing.

200 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:00:09pm

My favorite beer:

[Link: beeradvocate.com...]

201 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:00:13pm

re: #191 elbruce

Drinking Inverson IPA. One of the many perks of being an Oregonian.

Deschutes pub downtown is a very nice place to hang, espeically when the Black Butte XXI is flowing

202 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:01:15pm

re: #200 Conservative Moonbat

Double bastard is good times!

The Rogue Double Dead Guy is Oregon's answer to it, they're pretty much both the same vibe, just awesome mega-ale

203 freetoken  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:01:23pm

re: #198 elbruce

... around the exact time that the LGF webmaster dude decided to come to us to announce his big switch from neocon to moderate.

Not quite accurate.

204 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:02:14pm

re: #195 Conservative Moonbat

Eyehategod?

Okay, you win this thread forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever

205 Mich-again  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:02:59pm

Reading through some of the Christian rock lyrics. Man, pretty dark stuff..

And every time I play with fire, I'm going to Burn, Burn, Burn until I learn.
And everytime I do it myself, I'm going to hate, hate, hate.
It's time to get it straight.
I bury sick side, I tear from the inside out..

or this..

Welcome to the war; a martyr's challenge
Chainsaw brutality tornado strength
King of the diamond; king of the grave
Lawlessness stains black on whitewashed tombs


Almost sounds like Ronnie James.

206 sagehen  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:03:01pm

re: #188 reine.de.tout

Really?
Is that what Avanti said?

Well, of course that's a problem, if that's what's happening. I just didn't get that from what Avanti said.

I didn't get it from what Avanti said, I got that from stuff I've been reading for several years from Mickey Weinstein's outfit.

There was a whole big scandal a few years back that ended up with half the leadership at the Air Force Academy having to be replaced, because they were doing those sorts of things.

And at about the same time, a bunch of Evangelical chaplains overseas sued for discrimination on that grounds being ordered to stop evangelizing to soldiers of other faiths meant they weren't being allowed to practice their own faith.

207 Reginald Perrin  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:03:02pm

re: #187 SanFranciscoZionist

He may be wrong and if he is, ElBruce will be an adult and accept reality. Give him a chance, I have been watching how he handles himself with trolls and have not once seen ElBruce lower himself to their level.

I know that there are several intelligent bloggers at Think Progress who are dying to find a troll free place where they can visit and debate complex issues with adults while free from trolls and talking points. It's been years since there has been anything even close to debate between the right and left, at Think Progress.

208 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:03:59pm

re: #198 elbruce

As an aside, I was F5'ing ThinkProgress around the exact time that the LGF webmaster dude decided to come to us to announce his big switch from neocon to moderate. Which by the way, I must say counts as one of the most significant ideological changeovers I can think of in 20th/21st C. politics at any level.

No, Charles hasn't really changed his opinion on much of anything, except AGW. What's changed is the Right.

209 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:04:26pm

re: #198 elbruce

As an aside, I was F5'ing ThinkProgress around the exact time that the LGF webmaster dude decided to come to us to announce his big switch from neocon to moderate. Which by the way, I must say counts as one of the most significant ideological changeovers I can think of in 20th/21st C. politics at any level. I actually remember seeing those posts where he was practically begging us "progressives" to come check him out...

It's taken me a few years to take him seriously, but since I've heard from around the way that LGF has become a better (more even) mix of lib/con discussion, I'm deciding to look into it now. Looks pretty lively so far.

Smart people here, from all angles. I hope I can keep up.

A few years?

The transition has pretty much been in the past 12 months. When I came here I had to name myself to identify myself as a centrist democrat and was warned I'd be in the minority and that was less than a year ago.

210 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:05:05pm

re: #207 Reginald Perrin

He may be wrong and if he is, ElBruce will be an adult and accept reality. Give him a chance, I have been watching how he handles himself with trolls and have not once seen ElBruce lower himself to their level.

I know that there are several intelligent bloggers at Think Progress who are dying to find a troll free place where they can visit and debate complex issues with adults while free from trolls and talking points. It's been years since there has been anything even close to debate between the right and left, at Think Progress.

There needs to be a blogger farm team, some sort of triple-A adult debate team thing for nerdy blogger types, where we can put LGF's champion against some other blog's champion

Isn't that what we're doing? Basically adults reliving the debate team in high school? :D

211 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:06:34pm

re: #210 WindUpBird

There needs to be a blogger farm team, some sort of triple-A adult debate team thing for nerdy blogger types, where we can put LGF's champion against some other blog's champion

Isn't that what we're doing? Basically adults reliving the debate team in high school? :D

But without any rules whatsoever.

212 Mich-again  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:06:37pm

re: #210 WindUpBird

Isn't that what we're doing? Basically adults reliving the debate team in high school? :D

With beer.

213 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:06:38pm

re: #210 WindUpBird

There needs to be a blogger farm team, some sort of triple-A adult debate team thing for nerdy blogger types, where we can put LGF's champion against some other blog's champion

Isn't that what we're doing? Basically adults reliving the debate team in high school? :D

No. High School debate team actually had, like, rules and stuff.

214 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:07:38pm

re: #211 Cato the Elder

But without any rules whatsoever.

well, hence my suggestion of a blogger farm team, something closer to sport, something with some structure, tournaments, it'd be fun!

215 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:07:49pm

re: #213 JasonA

No. High School debate team actually had, like, rules and stuff.

YOU"RE ALL MISSING MY PROPOSAL

216 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:08:01pm

re: #214 WindUpBird

well, hence my suggestion of a blogger farm team, something closer to sport, something with some structure, tournaments, it'd be fun!

Okay. Who moderates?

217 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:08:06pm

re: #205 Mich-again

Reading through some of the Christian rock lyrics. Man, pretty dark stuff..


Almost sounds like Ronnie James.

And then we have Jars of Clay:

In open fields of wild flowers,
she breathes the air and flies away
She thanks her Jesus for the daises and the roses
in no simple language
Someday she'll understand the meaning of it all
He's more than the laughter or the stars in the heavens
As close a heartbeat or a song on her lips
Someday she'll trust Him and learn how to see Him
Someday He'll call her and she will come running
and fall in His arms and the tears will fall down and she'll pray

218 austin_blue  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:08:30pm

When I was sitting nuclear alert in the early 80's, there was a fairly large contingent of Bible readers in the alert shack who had meetings every day. On one occasion, I asked one of the participants (who also happened to be my aircraft commander) if he didn't see any contradiction between sitting for a week in a hole in the ground preset to sling nuclear devastation against the Godless commies and Christ's teachings of peace and turning the other cheek.

"Not really," he said, "we'll be in revenge mode by that time."

That may be as good a definition of cognitive/spiritual disconnect as any I've ever heard.

219 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:08:36pm

re: #213 JasonA

No. High School debate team actually had, like, rules and stuff.

If presidential debates were held to the standards that any intelligent high-schooler follows, they might actually be worth something.

For one thing, the bastards would lose points for not answering the question or addressing the issue, which they almost never, ever do.

220 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:09:10pm

re: #216 JasonA

Okay. Who moderates?

I'd make it like the olympics or boxing, you have a bunch of people scoring a round

221 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:10:13pm

re: #219 Cato the Elder

If presidential debates were held to the standards that any intelligent high-schooler follows, they might actually be worth something.

For one thing, the bastards would lose points for not answering the question or addressing the issue, which they almost never, ever do.

Amen to that, brother. I can't imagine any candidate agreeing to that now. It's so much more effective to be emotional than cerebral. *sigh*

222 austin_blue  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:10:27pm

re: #200 Conservative Moonbat

My favorite beer:

[Link: beeradvocate.com...]

The Hop mania that has enveloped the US in recent years is all well and good, but an Anchor Porter may still be the best reasonably priced brewskie made in the States.

223 elbruce  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:10:42pm

re: #178 Reginald Perrin

What are his opinions on black metal versus death metal

RAAAARRRRRGGH! DJUNKAH DJUNKAH DJUNKAH DJUNKAH DJUNKAH DJUNKAH DJUNKAH DJUNKAH YAAAAAAGGGGHHHH!!!!! FK FK FK FK FK Fk FK FK BBBBBLLLLAAAAAAGGGGG.

I hope that settles that. If you don't get what I was trying to say there, then you don't understand either Black or Death Metal.

re: #197 WindUpBird

I'm in SE Portland, near Mt Scott, whassup? :D

Woodstock area, off of Milwaukie & Powell. DOOD! :P

.

re: #201 WindUpBird

Deschutes pub downtown is a very nice place to hang, espeically when the Black Butte XXI is flowing

BLACK BUTT! (it's funnier to say it that way. Hella tasty even when you can't pronounce it either way) But B.B. is best for eating with winter meals, like meat stews. Most of the rest of the time, an Inversion I.P.A. brings the hops and the achohol % to make that beer worth picking out of the cooler next to the others. That's just how it goes.

In short: Deschutes Black Butte perfect for drinking with a heavy meal (Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc)

Deschutes Inversion I.P.A. perfect for drinking at all other occasions. RAWK!!!

Deschutes everything else, thanks for trying, but don't even bother.

224 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:11:11pm

re: #220 WindUpBird

I'd make it like the olympics or boxing, you have a bunch of people scoring a round

Good luck finding people that everyone would agree are fair-minded.

225 Mich-again  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:11:36pm

re: #209 Conservative Moonbat

A few years?

The transition has pretty much been in the past 12 months.

Well, there have been a number of incidents going back at least to the Terry Schiavo story where chunks of the far right broke off from LGF.

226 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:11:58pm

re: #223 elbruce

Christ, are all of you Oregonians like this?!?

227 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:12:44pm

re: #222 austin_blue

The Hop mania that has enveloped the US in recent years is all well and good, but an Anchor Porter may still be the best reasonably priced brewskie made in the States.

I really like the barley wine Anchor makes. Old Foghorn or something like that?

228 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:12:57pm

re: #219 Cato the Elder

If presidential debates were held to the standards that any intelligent high-schooler follows, they might actually be worth something.

For one thing, the bastards would lose points for not answering the question or addressing the issue, which they almost never, ever do.

I'm pretty sure at this point that political debate in this country is the art of saying nothing while appearing to show great intellectual forethought and preparedness in your remarks.

229 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:13:30pm

re: #228 oaktree

I'm pretty sure at this point that political debate in this country is the art of saying nothing while appearing to show great intellectual forethought and preparedness in your remarks.

You betcha.

230 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:13:42pm

re: #229 JasonA

You betcha.

Also.

231 Mich-again  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:14:06pm

re: #217 SanFranciscoZionist

I actually thought some of the lyrics I read through were pretty decent. Pretty heady stuff.

232 Reginald Perrin  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:15:06pm

re: #210 WindUpBird

There needs to be a blogger farm team, some sort of triple-A adult debate team thing for nerdy blogger types, where we can put LGF's champion against some other blog's champion

Isn't that what we're doing? Basically adults reliving the debate team in high school? :D

I wish that is the way it is, unfortunately there is a third type of blogger, the one who come to argue with Lizards of the other political persuasion. You know the ones I mean, the ones that act like children.
I do agree that a majority of us are here for the debate, and yes it is going to be cool once the inter-blog debates occur. I have been cheerleader for LGF at Think Progress in the hope we could use LGF pages to stage real debates with moderators. It could be a lot of fun and bring some traffic to LGF.

233 Mich-again  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:16:05pm

re: #228 oaktree

I'm pretty sure at this point that political debate in this country is the art of saying nothing while appearing to show great intellectual forethought and preparedness in your remarks.


You forgot the zingers. You have to keep one in reserve and pull it out at just the right time in the debate to get everyone to laugh at your opponent.

234 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:16:54pm

re: #226 JasonA

Christ, are all of you Oregonians like this?!?

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


Welcome to my world

235 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:17:10pm

re: #229 JasonA

You betcha.

And apparently talking like a folksy idiot is also acceptable in a large number of circles... :p

Goes back well before Saint Sarah. Gore wearing flannel. Bush the Younger's entire Texan schtick (he's a Ivy Leaguer from a New England family!) etc. etc. since populist is one of the possible approaches and dodges the anti-intellectualism side of American culture.

236 austin_blue  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:19:04pm

re: #227 Conservative Moonbat

I really like the barley wine Anchor makes. Old Foghorn or something like that?

Yup. Brutal. Two bottles and it's nighty nighty time. I'm not a fan of high-alcohol content beers.

I had a terrible encounter with Theakston's Old Peculiar on draft one night in Aberdeen, Scotland, in 1986. I believe it involved a wheelbarrow, two offshore co-workers and a significant memory-loss event. I'm told I had a lovely time.

237 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:19:24pm

re: #223 elbruce

I can't really get with you on dismissing the rest of their output, my favorite Deshcutes beer is their Jubelale (and also the 2010) ;-) Inversion is good stuff, but for IPAs, I am all about the Bridgeport and the Dogfish Head

Also, the Cascade Ale, that's just a solid beer right there

238 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:19:32pm

re: #235 oaktree

And apparently talking like a folksy idiot is also acceptable in a large number of circles... :p

Goes back well before Saint Sarah. Gore wearing flannel. Bush the Younger's entire Texan schtick (he's a Ivy Leaguer from a New England family!) etc. etc. since populist is one of the possible approaches and dodges the anti-intellectualism side of American culture.

Gore's from rural TN. He can wear that flannel and be legit with it.

239 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:19:35pm

re: #234 WindUpBird

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Welcome to my world

My parents (who retired to Bend, Oregon in the late 80s) claimed that Oregon was a nice place, but that the residents wished that people would stop moving into the state. Something along the lines of "Please Do Not Enter" signs being put up along the roads leading into the state.

240 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:21:11pm

re: #235 oaktree

And apparently talking like a folksy idiot is also acceptable in a large number of circles... :p

Goes back well before Saint Sarah. Gore wearing flannel. Bush the Younger's entire Texan schtick (he's a Ivy Leaguer from a New England family!) etc. etc. since populist is one of the possible approaches and dodges the anti-intellectualism side of American culture.

I see what you're saying. I think it was sincere on W's part, though. I've known people who went to Texas for not too long and came back nearly unrecognizable. Clinton had that kind of appeal a little, too. HW had none. Zip. Zilch. Didn't make him any worse of a president.

241 sagehen  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:21:26pm

re: #221 JasonA

Amen to that, brother. I can't imagine any candidate agreeing to that now. It's so much more effective to be emotional than cerebral. *sigh*

I laughed out loud at the VP debates, when Palin said "I'm not going to answer the question you asked, I'm going to talk about what I want to talk about."

My drinking game was to pick out the lines that SNL was most likely to use.

242 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:22:55pm

re: #241 sagehen

I laughed out loud at the VP debates, when Palin said "I'm not going to answer the question you asked, I'm going to talk about what I want to talk about."

My drinking game was to pick out the lines that SNL was most likely to use.

I'm pretty sure there was a time when candidates couldn't get away with that crap. Now? Starbursts through the TV screen.

243 sagehen  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:23:09pm

re: #233 Mich-again

You forgot the zingers. You have to keep one in reserve and pull it out at just the right time in the debate to get everyone to laugh at your opponent.

"Oh, say it isn't so, Joe."

244 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:23:54pm

re: #239 oaktree

My parents (who retired to Bend, Oregon in the late 80s) claimed that Oregon was a nice place, but that the residents wished that people would stop moving into the state. Something along the lines of "Please Do Not Enter" signs being put up along the roads leading into the state.

There is that vibe here! It's sorta lesser once you get into the various subcultures of Oregon, they'll happily be into new arrivals. For example, I've managed to lure a couple of my artsy friends here from California :D

What Oregon DOES NOT LIKE, is California style evil real estate speculation, fucking house flipper scumbags from LA and Seattle who think they're going to drive up prices and make a mint in the real estate market. Oregon digs someone who comes here because they dig Oregon, and Portland, and appreciate this place. People who come to Portland and them complain about how everything was better in (insert other big city person came from) we do not take that shit ;-)

We all saw how that turned out though, hah

245 Stanghazi  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:24:22pm

re: #242 JasonA

I'm pretty sure there was a time when candidates couldn't get away with that crap. Now? Starbursts through the TV screen.

"I sat up a little taller when she winked, at me."

gag, that was IT.

246 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:24:28pm

re: #240 JasonA

I see what you're saying. I think it was sincere on W's part, though. I've known people who went to Texas for not too long and came back nearly unrecognizable. Clinton had that kind of appeal a little, too. HW had none. Zip. Zilch. Didn't make him any worse of a president.

HW was a New Englander down to his shoes.

The most HW story I ever heard involved him being asked what he was thinking about when his plane was shot down during the war. He reportedly said that he was thinking about his parents, and the values they instilled in him, and separation of church and state.

Molly Ivins sternly reproves anyone who might doubt this version, and adds, "Let's face it. YOU wouldn't have been thinking about the separation of church and state."

It simply would never have occurred to HW to talk about his emotions in public. It isn't done.

247 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:24:33pm

re: #242 JasonA

I'm pretty sure there was a time when candidates couldn't get away with that crap. Now? Starbursts through the TV screen.

And the winks. It was like she was trying to use emoticons in real life.

248 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:24:58pm

re: #245 Stanley Sea

"I sat up a little taller when she winked, at me."

gag, that was IT.

Oh, if you haven't listened to Keith Olbermann recite that post you really should.

249 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:27:06pm

re: #248 JasonA

Oh, if you haven't listened to Keith Olbermann recite that post you really should.

Starts at about 2:00

250 Stanghazi  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:27:32pm

re: #248 JasonA

Oh, if you haven't listened to Keith Olbermann recite that post you really should.

Haven't seen it! Tried to find it, too tired. Will look tomorrow.

251 Stanghazi  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:28:00pm

re: #249 JasonA

THANK YOU!

252 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:28:13pm

re: #240 JasonA

I see what you're saying. I think it was sincere on W's part, though. I've known people who went to Texas for not too long and came back nearly unrecognizable. Clinton had that kind of appeal a little, too. HW had none. Zip. Zilch. Didn't make him any worse of a president.

HW's problem was that he had no Elvis. Still doesn't. Good man. No Elvis.

253 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:28:35pm

re: #244 WindUpBird

There is that vibe here! It's sorta lesser once you get into the various subcultures of Oregon, they'll happily be into new arrivals. For example, I've managed to lure a couple of my artsy friends here from California :D

What Oregon DOES NOT LIKE, is California style evil real estate speculation, fucking house flipper scumbags from LA and Seattle who think they're going to drive up prices and make a mint in the real estate market. Oregon digs someone who comes here because they dig Oregon, and Portland, and appreciate this place. People who come to Portland and them complain about how everything was better in (insert other big city person came from) we do not take that shit ;-)

We all saw how that turned out though, hah

I think out on the eastern side of the Cascades the real estate thing *was* going on in the late 80s through mid 90s when I got out there a few times. Californian would sell house in California for $600K+, move to Central Oregon to build equivalent for $200K, bank rest, and sit back expecting value to rise.

I also had the impression that Bend and the surrounding area was growing rapidly and developing in ways that the long-time local residents did not necessarily care for. Not to mention that I'm pretty sure water was becoming an issue (or known that once any sort of drought occurred was going to be a big issue.)

254 austin_blue  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:29:50pm

re: #246 SanFranciscoZionist

HW was a New Englander down to his shoes.

The most HW story I ever heard involved him being asked what he was thinking about when his plane was shot down during the war. He reportedly said that he was thinking about his parents, and the values they instilled in him, and separation of church and state.

Molly Ivins sternly reproves anyone who might doubt this version, and adds, "Let's face it. YOU wouldn't have been thinking about the separation of church and state."

It simply would never have occurred to HW to talk about his emotions in public. It isn't done.

Well said. And quoting Saint Molly (my late lamented neighbor) gets a bonus ding. She was such a hoot. I miss her so much.

255 Stanghazi  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:30:11pm

re: #249 JasonA

Rich Lowery - pitiful fool.

256 elbruce  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:31:06pm

re: #208 JasonA

No, Charles hasn't really changed his opinion on much of anything, except AGW. What's changed is the Right.

Let me tell you what it looks like from the Left:

Dude who is famous for the sole reason that he claims "liberal" journalists are lying because of discrepancies between their reports and official army P.R. reports... suddenly realizes that maybe the U.S. army isn't a perfectly reliable source.

Sorry, but in point of fact, that's the history of LGF in a nutshell. Qualitatively, if not quantitatively.

Because, while he was feeding the right-wing media machine with differences from offical U.S Iraq P.R. releases vs. major media reports, he was ginning up hitcounts and general prestige (what is "little green footballs" anyway?)

So when he decided to ditch neoconism, he did it with one of the highest profiles of any "blog" out there, and threw everything into disarray.

Personally, I ignored the announcement. Not only did I have a low opinion of LGF, I thought that "switching sides" so quick was a pu55y move, and etcetera etcetera, all stuff that Charles has heard in a zillion emails by now. So I ignored him and marched on elsewhere.

This is why I think LGF is worth looking into at this point in time: Because unlike all of the previously "progressive" (Hi, ThinkProgress! Love ya!) or conservative "blogosphere" sites out there, this one has actually managed to flip-flop at a critical moment such as to flip the difference.

It isn't 90% progressives, 10% conservative cartoon trolls as it is at ThinkProgress. Nor is is 10% cartoon communist trolls, 90% conservative posters as it is - I don't know where, but it's gotta be out there. Redstate? Freepers?

LGF has managed, through a crazy combination of political honesty and dumb luck, to land at about the best possible 50/50 ratio between liberal and conservative commenters that could ever exist.

So I figured, I'd check it out...

257 freetoken  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:33:01pm

re: #256 elbruce


So when he decided to ditch neoconism,...

Not quite accurate, still.

258 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:38:09pm

Good night to all

A belated welcome to ElBruce - cranky cat avatars rule!

Just need a cold beer and a tasty wave... ;)

259 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:38:36pm

re: #256 elbruce

Oh, I'm firmly in the Left's camp. Always have been. I've only been here for about a year. Before that I would hang out around Kos, TPM, or Huff (which has really been going down the sewer), and I still do visit those sites.

Now, while I certainly don't hold the same opinion on any given topic that Charles might, I've grown to trust that he'll think through his positions and offer a very honest and well thought-out argument for that opinion.

Also, as Freetoken has mentioned, I don't think Charles ever really considered himself a Neocon.

260 elbruce  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:41:40pm

re: #257 freetoken

Not quite accurate, still.

Educate me. The guy who went from saying that the media was lying because their report differed from the Army's press releases, then came to ThinkProgress to tell everyone who would listen that he had been wrong about everything and that LGF was going to now serve a completely different purpose than it ever had before - how is this not the ultimate "Horatio Alger" story where somebody flips the switch? I can only hope that future generations of screenwriters are reading our discussion about Charles right now.

261 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:45:24pm

re: #260 elbruce

Hrm. Do you have link to this Charles post on Think Progress? I searched for his name and came up with zilch. When was it?

262 Reginald Perrin  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:47:29pm

re: #260 elbruce

Educate me. The guy who went from saying that the media was lying because their report differed from the Army's press releases, then came to ThinkProgress to tell everyone who would listen that he had been wrong about everything and that LGF was going to now serve a completely different purpose than it ever had before - how is this not the ultimate "Horatio Alger" story where somebody flips the switch? I can only hope that future generations of screenwriters are reading our discussion about Charles right now.

Why can't you just come out and say you admire Charles for being open minded enough to let reality influence his political positions. It's late, keep it simple.

263 elbruce  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:50:01pm

Seeing the last few posts, I'd like to remind everybody:

LGF came to prominence (as in, you never would have heard of it) by comparing official Army P.R. Reports to reports filed by Journalists in Iraq. Where there was any difference, Charles would quite loudly report that the "liberal leaning" journalists were "incorrectly" diverging from the official reports filed by the Army. Which is no big deal, until we start talking about "black sites," Guantanamo Bay and general "Security Clearance Required" discussions.

For a long time, I considered LGF right up there with the "Ace of Spades" in terms of the territory it had staked out in Right Blogistan, even after Charles had reached out to us libs.

For LGF to come even to a moderate (not leftist, not rightist) position was a huge political shift. To a degree which hasn't been seen since McCain hugged Bush.

264 freetoken  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:50:40pm
Educate me.

Look up a good definition for "neoconservative", for example the one on Wikipedia:

Neoconservatism is a political philosophy that emerged in the United States of America, and which supports using modern American economic and military power to bring liberalism, democracy, and human rights to other countries.

I'd say that applies (at a reasonably high level of adherence) to several people here. Even the blog owner who, from my perspective, hasn't really changed that much in his basic approach to many things about international relations.

Go back to the first posts at LGF, from before 9/11. See if you opinion changes any.

265 sagehen  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:50:43pm

re: #260 elbruce

I wasn't here then, and I've barely skimmed ThinkProgress so I never saw the post you reference, but....

was it anywhere near the same time as Katrina? 'Cause I remember really enjoying seeing Joe Scarborough, mouth agape, standing somewhere in Mississippi and just having seen the satellite feed of the white house press secretary talking about the federal response, saying "That's a lie. OMG they're so totally lying. That's not what's happening here at all. Suddenly I want to know what else they're lying about. I wonder if Iraq is going at all the way the Administration's been saying."

266 austin_blue  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:51:51pm

re: #256 elbruce

Let me tell you what it looks like from the Left:

Dude who is famous for the sole reason that he claims "liberal" journalists are lying because of discrepancies between their reports and official army P.R. reports... suddenly realizes that maybe the U.S. army isn't a perfectly reliable source.

Sorry, but in point of fact, that's the history of LGF in a nutshell. Qualitatively, if not quantitatively.

Because, while he was feeding the right-wing media machine with differences from offical U.S Iraq P.R. releases vs. major media reports, he was ginning up hitcounts and general prestige (what is "little green footballs" anyway?)

So when he decided to ditch neoconism, he did it with one of the highest profiles of any "blog" out there, and threw everything into disarray.

Personally, I ignored the announcement. Not only did I have a low opinion of LGF, I thought that "switching sides" so quick was a pu55y move, and etcetera etcetera, all stuff that Charles has heard in a zillion emails by now. So I ignored him and marched on elsewhere.

This is why I think LGF is worth looking into at this point in time: Because unlike all of the previously "progressive" (Hi, ThinkProgress! Love ya!) or conservative "blogosphere" sites out there, this one has actually managed to flip-flop at a critical moment such as to flip the difference.

It isn't 90% progressives, 10% conservative cartoon trolls as it is at ThinkProgress. Nor is is 10% cartoon communist trolls, 90% conservative posters as it is - I don't know where, but it's gotta be out there. Redstate? Freepers?

LGF has managed, through a crazy combination of political honesty and dumb luck, to land at about the best possible 50/50 ratio between liberal and conservative commenters that could ever exist.

So I figured, I'd check it out...

Probably not 50/50.

I was one of the early D's who survived here. I did so by laying in the weeds for the most part until the split between Charles and the EuroFascists started, clearing out a large cohort of AmeriBigots and the more extreme members of the Jewish cohort (bigots and Transfer! advocates) on this site.

I still got hammered when I first started posting. The second purge was over science- specifically evolution and global warming.

I would rate this site as 20% Conservative, 40% mixed, and 40% Liberal right now.
Best guess.

Most of the Conservatives would probably disagree, but I put myself in the 40% mixed category.

So yes, this is a fascinating site. But understand that there are long-standing feuds here, between long-registered members.

267 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:52:51pm

re: #255 Stanley Sea

Rich Lowery - pitiful fool.

National Review - den of fools.

268 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:52:57pm

re: #264 freetoken

Really? I never quite got he Neocon vibe from Charles. Maybe I've read him wrong.

269 freetoken  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:57:05pm

re: #268 JasonA

Really? I never quite got he Neocon vibe from Charles. Maybe I've read him wrong.

No one (well, almost no one) holds any position ideologically in purity. I'm not speaking for Charles, but my perception is that more often than not his posts give accent to the ideas of spreading democracy and classical liberalism (liberty) using force (military) if necessary.

And, I think many people here do hold to that ideal to some extent.

I'm more of a realist when it comes to international matters, though I am not strictly opposed to the use of military force to help people in other nations.

270 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:57:25pm

Charles was never a Neocon. He's a centrist Democrat who just happened to get bitchslapped by 9/11.

271 freetoken  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:58:12pm

re: #270 Conservative Moonbat

Which is why I encouraged our newbie to go back and read the pre 9/11 blog entries.

272 freetoken  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:58:39pm

re: #269 freetoken

pimf "ascent"

273 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:59:11pm

re: #269 freetoken

No one (well, almost no one) holds any position ideologically in purity. I'm not speaking for Charles, but my perception is that more often than not his posts give accent to the ideas of spreading democracy and classical liberalism (liberty) using force (military) if necessary.

And, I think many people here do hold to that ideal to some extent.

I'm more of a realist when it comes to international matters, though I am not strictly opposed to the use of military force to help people in other nations.

I don't know about that. I haven't heard him express a desire to put boots on the ground in Iran, for example.

274 freetoken  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 10:59:33pm

re: #272 freetoken

pimf^2 "assent"

275 elbruce  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:02:00pm

are: #265 sagehen

I wasn't here then, and I've barely skimmed ThinkProgress so I never saw the post you reference, but...

was it anywhere near the same time as Katrina? 'Cause I remember really enjoying seeing Joe Scarborough, mouth agape, standing somewhere in Mississippi and just having seen the satellite feed of the white house press secretary talking about the federal response, saying "That's a lie. OMG they're so totally lying. That's not what's happening here at all.

I do remember Shep Smith on Fox News standing in front of the Superdome saying, "is anyone in the federal government hearing this? There are thousands of stranded and hungry people without water right behind me, are you receiving this transmission?"

That's exactly the point at which I realized the Bush Administration was too foul even for FAUX News. It's also the point at which the MSM finally proved it could move faster than the government.

.

re: #268 JasonA

Really? I never quite got he Neocon vibe from Charles. Maybe I've read him wrong.

Oh trust me, back in the day he was one of the biggest "LIBERALS DIE!" bastards to ever infest Right Blogistan.

276 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:02:32pm

Rick Lazio just won't quit using the 9/11 imagery in his campaign ads.

Also, not condemning Hamas makes one a "terrorist sympathizing Imam."

277 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:04:00pm

re: #273 JasonA

I don't know about that. I haven't heard him express a desire to put boots on the ground in Iran, for example.

I think there's a lot more foreign policy hawkishness here than there is on Daily Kos. I think pretty much everyone here is in support of the Afghanistan War, for example.

278 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:04:10pm

re: #275 elbruce

re: #268 JasonA

Oh trust me, back in the day he was one of the biggest "LIBERALS DIE!" bastards to ever infest Right Blogistan.

Careful, Bruce. Unless he said those exact words, and you can provide proof that he did, don't take the rhetoric there. I know he's said unkind things about liberals, but not quite that.

279 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:04:11pm

re: #260 elbruce

Educate me. The guy who went from saying that the media was lying because their report differed from the Army's press releases, then came to ThinkProgress to tell everyone who would listen that he had been wrong about everything and that LGF was going to now serve a completely different purpose than it ever had before - how is this not the ultimate "Horatio Alger" story where somebody flips the switch? I can only hope that future generations of screenwriters are reading our discussion about Charles right now.

I see the whole story as a simple tale of intellectual honesty, if you want to know what I think.

Of course that would make a very unusual movie script as well - except when you consider that the list of films that follow that arc probably numbers in the hundreds.

In any case I think you're both oversimplifying and overanalyzing a bit. That's entirely your prerogative, but having been here from nearly the beginning, I can say I don't really recognize your "brief history of LGF" as anything but a facile snapshot.

280 Varek Raith  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:06:29pm

Boy, sure as hell makes it hard to say the US military isn't on some damn new crusade.

281 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:10:00pm

re: #277 Conservative Moonbat

I think there's a lot more foreign policy hawkishness here than there is on Daily Kos. I think pretty much everyone here is in support of the Afghanistan War, for example.

Okay, but what's the threshold? I suspect there are more Lizards who just wish Afghanistan was over with than you think.

I guess this all started with the labeling of Charles as a Neocon. I don't see him in that category, with the likes of Bill Kristol.

282 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:10:18pm

re: #265 sagehen

I wasn't here then, and I've barely skimmed ThinkProgress so I never saw the post you reference, but...

was it anywhere near the same time as Katrina? 'Cause I remember really enjoying seeing Joe Scarborough, mouth agape, standing somewhere in Mississippi and just having seen the satellite feed of the white house press secretary talking about the federal response, saying "That's a lie. OMG they're so totally lying. That's not what's happening here at all. Suddenly I want to know what else they're lying about. I wonder if Iraq is going at all the way the Administration's been saying."


Katrina really opened my eyes, I'll say that!

283 austin_blue  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:10:35pm

re: #260 elbruce

Educate me. The guy who went from saying that the media was lying because their report differed from the Army's press releases, then came to ThinkProgress to tell everyone who would listen that he had been wrong about everything and that LGF was going to now serve a completely different purpose than it ever had before - how is this not the ultimate "Horatio Alger" story where somebody flips the switch? I can only hope that future generations of screenwriters are reading our discussion about Charles right now.

I think you should respond to my #266.

284 freetoken  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:10:43pm

re: #275 elbruce

a

Oh trust me, back in the day he was one of the biggest "LIBERALS DIE!" bastards to ever infest Right Blogistan.

In over 6 years of reading this blog, I've never seen him write that.

285 elbruce  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:11:46pm

re: #278 JasonA

Careful, Bruce. Unless he said those exact words, and you can provide proof that he did, don't take the rhetoric there. I know he's said unkind things about liberals, but not quite that.

I may not be able to get very precise on his position back then, but I can tell you he was one of the more prominent neoconservative blogs out there, along with the Ace of Spades, Michelle Malin, Ann Coulter, etcetera. That toxic enough for you?

.

re: #278 JasonA

Careful, Bruce. Unless he said those exact words, and you can provide proof that he did, don't take the rhetoric there. I know he's said unkind things about liberals, but not quite that.

re: #279 Cato the Elder

I see the whole story as a simple tale of intellectual honesty, if you want to know what I think.

Of course that would make a very unusual movie script as well - except when you consider that the list of films that follow that arc probably numbers in the hundreds.

Grow a sac, people. The man took a solid stand on one side, realized he was wrong, and then took a solid stand on the other side. From where I'm standing, that's like balls to the third power. Which is like at least eight balls or something.

286 Varek Raith  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:13:54pm

Playing with fire sure is fun.

287 austin_blue  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:14:50pm

re: #281 JasonA

Okay, but what's the threshold? I suspect there are more Lizards who just wish Afghanistan was over with than you think.

I guess this all started with the labeling of Charles as a Neocon. I don't see him in that category, with the likes of Bill Kristol.

Agreed. As a vet, I always agreed with the incursion in Afghanistan. That was the source of the problem (Al Queda). It was the lack of follow-through and the transfer of assets to Iraq that pissed me off.

288 Bubblehead II  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:15:03pm

re: #286 Varek Raith

But, eventually, you get burned.

289 freetoken  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:15:15pm

re: #280 Varek Raith

Boy, sure as hell makes it hard to say the US military isn't on some damn new crusade.

290 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:15:23pm

re: #285 elbruce

I don't really care about blog history, I care about what's going on right now

Band's only as good as their last album, if we're talking about 5 year old blog posts, what are we really talking about? This is such inside baseball

never mind the fact that we're not addressing the simple tech climate of blogs evolving, the medium is so new, we're still evolving things like registered comments, efficient moderating, web 2.0 standards

if someone were to dig up my usenet posts from a few years ago, they'd find a guy with much much different priorities

291 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:17:24pm

re: #285 elbruce

if someone is playing a song you like, do you really care what band they were in years ago?

Blogs are op-ed pages with talkback, on the internet, that's it. They require infrastructure and coding and a lot of support, but they boil down to letters to the editor, in hyperspace. it's an ephemeral medium, it's in the moment.

292 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:17:25pm

re: #285 elbruce

Grow a sac, people. The man took a solid stand on one side, realized he was wrong, and then took a solid stand on the other side. From where I'm standing, that's like balls to the third power. Which is like at least eight balls or something.

"Grow a sac?"

You've been here for six days, have made 24 comments, and you're telling me, Jason, and others to not be pussies?

I'm sorry, but unless you have anything more intelligent to bring to the table than a few pseudo-learned commentaries on the history of LGF, you just went in my scrollover file. And that, as most anyone around her will tell you, takes some doing.

293 austin_blue  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:17:26pm

re: #285 elbruce

I may not be able to get very precise on his position back then, but I can tell you he was one of the more prominent neoconservative blogs out there, along with the Ace of Spades, Michelle Malin, Ann Coulter, etcetera. That toxic enough for you?

.

re: #278 JasonA

re: #279 Cato the Elder

Grow a sac, people. The man took a solid stand on one side, realized he was wrong, and then took a solid stand on the other side. From where I'm standing, that's like balls to the third power. Which is like at least eight balls or something.

You're not going to respond to my #266, are you? Why not?

294 Bubblehead II  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:19:13pm

re: #290 WindUpBird

Hell, you wouldn't even have to go that far back. As I pointed out with the troll that was attacking Mandy using 3 yr old posts from the archives. We have all at one time or another posted things that today we would regard as wrong. Live and learn.

295 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:19:22pm

re: #287 austin_blue

Notional downding for thinking there is such a thing as "Al Queeeeda"...

296 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:19:41pm

At some point people gotta realize that the heart of this blog, is a guy with an opinion, and if someone treats his opinion like it's been etched in stone by Moses or something and can never respond to the social, political or emotional climate, that's on them

297 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:20:15pm

re: #294 Bubblehead II

Hell, you wouldn't even have to go that far back. As I pointed out with the troll that was attacking Mandy using 3 yr old posts from the archives. We have all at one time or another posted things that today we would regard as wrong. Live and learn.

If I'm going to attack someone, it's gonna be with recent shit, or at leats a pattern of behavior that extends to rpesent day

298 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:21:13pm

re: #285 elbruce

I'm going to offer this advice, free of charge, before I head out of here for the night. Forget everything you think you know about LGF. It's not what it was. Many who contributed to that toxicity have moved on. Chill for a little while and get to know us, because you'll be interacting with us far more than you will Charles. We're all very very different. And that's one the coolest things about this place.

299 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:21:42pm

re: #296 WindUpBird

At some point people gotta realize that the heart of this blog, is a guy with an opinion, and if someone treats his opinion like it's been etched in stone by Moses or something and can never respond to the social, political or emotional climate, that's on them

Still, an actual history of LGF would be very interesting as a mirror or counterpoint or both to the times in which various things were said and promoted here. I am sure that at least one will eventually be written.

300 austin_blue  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:22:17pm

re: #285 elbruce

And he was *so* into the discussion, and now it's just...poof!

301 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:22:23pm

re: #299 Cato the Elder

Still, an actual history of LGF would be very interesting as a mirror or counterpoint or both to the times in which various things were said and promoted here. I am sure that at least one will eventually be written.

It'd be interesting to read, certainly!

302 Bubblehead II  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:23:09pm

re: #297 WindUpBird

If I'm going to attack someone, it's gonna be with recent shit, or at leats a pattern of behavior that extends to rpesent day

Works for me. Like I said, Live and learn/grow.

303 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:23:16pm

re: #300 austin_blue

And he was *so* into the discussion, and now it's just...poof!

ah well

I tried :D

304 elbruce  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:24:26pm

re: #277 Conservative Moonbat

I think there's a lot more foreign policy hawkishness here than there is on Daily Kos. I think pretty much everyone here is in support of the Afghanistan War, for example.

I am. As I see it, Afghanistan is the "good war," the one we should have been focused 100% on for the last ten years. A war such as we haven't seen since waaayyy back in WW2. Nothing in between has made us feel even remotely good about what we were supposed to stand for.

Korea, Vietnam, Iran, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Iraq, Iraq... none of these were ever "good wars" like WWII or Afghanistan were. And no matter how hard we tried to hide that fact from our servicement it never took for some reason. Ultimately every one of them had to ultimately deal with the fact that they were sent to kill people for no good reason.

305 Nimed  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:24:40pm

re: #264 freetoken

Look up a good definition for "neoconservative", for example the one on Wikipedia:

Neoconservatism is a political philosophy that emerged in the United States of America, and which supports using modern American economic and military power to bring liberalism, democracy, and human rights to other countries.

I'd say that applies (at a reasonably high level of adherence) to several people here. Even the blog owner who, from my perspective, hasn't really changed that much in his basic approach to many things about international relations.

Go back to the first posts at LGF, from before 9/11. See if you opinion changes any.

I'd say that definition is both overbroad and very flattering -- that's certainly not the general usage of the term. IMO, it makes no sense to try to distinguish neoconservatism from other political philosophies in our country without mentioning the relative willingness of its proponents to engage in military solutions, the little respect for international law and the promotion of some form of "special role" for the US in the world.

306 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:27:31pm

re: #305 Nimed

I'd say that definition is both overbroad and very flattering -- that's certainly not the general usage of the term. IMO, it makes no sense to try to distinguish neoconservatism from other political philosophies in our country without mentioning the relative willingness of its proponents to engage in military solutions, the little respect for international law and the promotion of some form of "special role" for the US in the world.

That is pretty much a radiant bit of truth right there!

One wonders how our country would have developed in the last fifty years if we were relatively weak militarily (and thus didn't have politicians learning on the military as a political tool) and didn't have vast cosmic natural resources to draw on

307 Varek Raith  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:27:43pm

re: #304 elbruce

What did you have against the '91 Gulf War?

308 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:30:00pm

In other news, I guess VIN numbers are a thing cops should be aware of:

[Link: www.ktla.com...]

309 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:30:24pm

re: #307 Varek Raith

What did you have against the '91 Gulf War?

I've been wondering that, too. I mean, we wouldn't have given a shit if there wasn't oil under those sands, but it didn't seem like a waste to me.

310 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:31:00pm

re: #277 Conservative Moonbat

I think there's a lot more foreign policy hawkishness here than there is on Daily Kos. I think pretty much everyone here is in support of the Afghanistan War, for example.

That's changing. Fast.

311 freetoken  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:31:35pm

re: #299 Cato the Elder

Still, an actual history of LGF would be very interesting as a mirror or counterpoint or both to the times in which various things were said and promoted here. I am sure that at least one will eventually be written.

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way - in short the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil in the superlative degree of comparison only."

312 austin_blue  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:32:16pm

re: #304 elbruce

I am. As I see it, Afghanistan is the "good war," the one we should have been focused 100% on for the last ten years. A war such as we haven't seen since waaayyy back in WW2. Nothing in between has made us feel even remotely good about what we were supposed to stand for.

Korea, Vietnam, Iran, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Iraq, Iraq... none of these were ever "good wars" like WWII or Afghanistan were. And no matter how hard we tried to hide that fact from our servicement it never took for some reason. Ultimately every one of them had to ultimately deal with the fact that they were sent to kill people for no good reason.

Nicaragua and El Salvador? Did I miss those invasions? Granted, military support,
but really....

313 Varek Raith  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:32:46pm

re: #312 austin_blue

Nicaragua and El Salvador? Did I miss those invasions? Granted, military support,
but really...

I'm starting to understand his political leanings...

314 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:33:27pm

re: #311 freetoken

Let me tell you of the days of high adventure!

315 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:33:31pm

re: #305 Nimed

My respect for international law asymptotically approaches the zero axis with each passing year. And I believe that whether that role is God-given or history-driven, America has a special role to play in the world, whether for good or ill, whether we like it or not, by virtue of the position we took in the world after WWII, and that we will continue to be obliged to play that role until the American Empire (you know, the one the "patriotic" cretins claim does not exist) crumbles and gives way to the eventual domination of the world by the Chinese.

Does this make me a "neocon"?

316 sagehen  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:34:00pm

re: #304 elbruce

I am. As I see it, Afghanistan is the "good war," the one we should have been focused 100% on for the last ten years. A war such as we haven't seen since waaayyy back in WW2. Nothing in between has made us feel even remotely good about what we were supposed to stand for.

Korea, Vietnam, Iran, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Iraq, Iraq... none of these were ever "good wars" like WWII or Afghanistan were. And no matter how hard we tried to hide that fact from our servicement it never took for some reason. Ultimately every one of them had to ultimately deal with the fact that they were sent to kill people for no good reason.

That's some selective memory there, pal.

I kind of liked the first Gulf war -- most of the world stood shoulder to shoulder with us, we went in with an objective and strategy that could be explained in 25 words or less, we accomplished our goal and came home. Well done. Bosnia and Kosovo was a good one too -- definitely worth doing, and we were able to do it with 0 KIA on our side.

One we didn't do, that I wish we had, was to intercede in Rwanda.

317 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:34:04pm

re: #314 WindUpBird

That right there is one of the best pieces of film soundtrack music of all time

318 Bubblehead II  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:35:18pm

Lizards, time to call it a night. Have fun with the troll who happens to think that there are "good" wars. There have been necessary wars, but there has not and will never be a good war.

319 austin_blue  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:35:54pm

re: #313 Varek Raith

I'm starting to understand his political leanings...

Which is a pity, because if it toned down its Moonbattery a few degrees, it would be welcome here.

Go figure.

320 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:37:24pm

re: #319 austin_blue

Which is a pity, because if it toned down its Moonbattery a few degrees, it would be welcome here.

Go figure.

I think he's probably just someone who jumped right into the pool without letting himself acclimate first. It happens.

321 austin_blue  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:37:24pm

I am also for the rack. Sleep well, and play nice, my dear friends.

322 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:37:26pm

re: #312 austin_blue

Nicaragua and El Salvador? Did I miss those invasions? Granted, military support,
but really...

Saint Reagan took care of those with illegal support for fascist death squads, paid for in part by selling arms to our and the Israelis' friends the Iranian mullahs, all of which he straight up lied about in the face of the American people.

Yet another reason for hating the memory of the Great Prevaricator...

323 Varek Raith  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:39:07pm

re: #322 Cato the Elder

Saint Reagan took care of those with illegal support for fascist death squads, paid for in part by selling arms to our and the Israelis' friends the Iranian mullahs, all of which he straight up lied about in the face of the American people.

Yet another reason for hating the memory of the Great Prevaricator...

Sigh.
It's God-Emperor Reagan.
Get it straight.

324 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:42:54pm

re: #323 Varek Raith

Sigh.
It's God-Emperor Reagan.
Get it straight.

With no unpleasant aftertaste! Ronald Reagan goes down smooth!

325 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:45:28pm

One more thing before I go, Bruce. You lucked out a little with the Lizard roster you stumbled into tonight. Others would not be so calm and reasonable considering some of the comments you've posted tonight. Since my testicles have apparently yet to descend, I'll just chalk that up to you trying to find the rhythm here at LGF.

Good night and good luck.

326 Varek Raith  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:46:39pm

From this day forth, LGF shall be known as;
The Ronald Reagan Viridian Gridiron Blog.

327 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:47:04pm

ElBruce, by the way, is busy defending Jimmy "Arafat's Bum-Boy" Carter's thesis that Israel is an apartheid state on the last thread.

I for one do not give this clown the credit that some here seem willing to extend.

328 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:47:35pm

re: #326 Varek Raith

From this day forth, LGF shall be known as;
The Diminutive Ronald Reagan Viridian Gridiron Blog.

fixt

329 Varek Raith  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:48:47pm

re: #328 JasonA

fixt

GO TO BED!!!
Jerk.
Gotta ruin my play on words.
/
:P

330 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:48:56pm

re: #327 Cato the Elder

ElBruce, by the way, is busy defending Jimmy "Arafat's Bum-Boy" Carter's thesis that Israel is an apartheid state on the last thread.

I for one do not give this clown the credit that some here seem willing to extend.

Meh. You know I don't lose my temper that often anyway. That's what the rest of you are here for.

331 Four More Tears  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:49:19pm

re: #329 Varek Raith

Yes, dear.

332 Nimed  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:51:27pm

re: #304 elbruce

Why the first Iraq War? Also, you forgot Poland, er, I mean, Korea.re: #315 Cato the Elder

My respect for international law asymptotically approaches the zero axis with each passing year. And I believe that whether that role is God-given or history-driven, America has a special role to play in the world, whether for good or ill, whether we like it or not, by virtue of the position we took in the world after WWII, and that we will continue to be obliged to play that role until the American Empire (you know, the one the "patriotic" cretins claim does not exist) crumbles and gives way to the eventual domination of the world by the Chinese.

Does this make me a "neocon"?

Just a bit. ;)

Usually the justification for the special role involves a bit more than saying the US is the biggest kid on the block plus a number of perfectly reasonable virtues. I'm talking about a highly idealized narrative of just how incredibly and uniquely awesome we are -- see this for a very good example of what I mean. An excerpt:

What do we, as American conservatives, want to conserve? The answer is simple: the pillars of American exceptionalism. Our country has always been exceptional. It is freer, more individualistic, more democratic, and more open and dynamic than any other nation on earth. These qualities are the bequest of our Founding and of our cultural heritage. They have always marked America as special, with a unique role and mission in the world: as a model of ordered liberty and self-government and as an exemplar of freedom and a vindicator of it, through persuasion when possible and force of arms when absolutely necessary.

I strongly disagree with you on international law, but this is a pretty big discussion and it's getting late. I'll be happy to discuss the topic with you soon, though.

333 Varek Raith  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:53:29pm

re: #327 Cato the Elder

ElBruce, by the way, is busy defending Jimmy "Arafat's Bum-Boy" Carter's thesis that Israel is an apartheid state on the last thread.

I for one do not give this clown the credit that some here seem willing to extend.

That post of his was all I needed to see.
Thanks.

334 elbruce  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:53:33pm

re: #318 Bubblehead II

Lizards, time to call it a night. Have fun with the troll who happens to think that there are "good" wars. There have been necessary wars, but there has not and will never be a good war.

I can see how that terminology might disturb you; as it should probably disturb any sensitive, liberal person. What I mean to say was "necessary." In my view, in the last 100 years, the only "necessary" wars have been WWII and Afghanistan. Others might be good ideas (Kosovo, Rwanda) but were certainly not necessary per se.

And of course, morally speaking war is never "good." As if that ever stopped anybody.

.


re: #315 Cato the Elder

My respect for international law asymptotically approaches the zero axis with each passing year...

Does this make me a "neocon"?

Sounds like it to me. But good luck with that.

.

re: #318 Bubblehead II

Lizards, time to call it a night. Have fun with the troll who happens to think that there are "good" wars. There have been necessary wars, but there has not and will never be a good war.

I like the concept, but I personally would rather wait until the last member of the Greatest Generation has been laid to rest before we start saying that in public.

335 Varek Raith  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:55:10pm

re: #334 elbruce

Heh.
If Cato's a neocon I'm...
Good grief, I can't think of anything more extreme!
It would appear that anyone right of center is a neocon to you.

336 elbruce  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:56:39pm

re: #327 Cato the Elder

ElBruce, by the way, is busy defending Jimmy "Arafat's Bum-Boy" Carter's thesis that Israel is an apartheid state on the last thread.

I am? All I said is that you have one set of contiguous borders with two kinds of citizens that live inside it, that's apartheid.

What is your name for it? Please explain!

337 Varek Raith  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:58:51pm

re: #336 elbruce

What did you have against the first Gulf War?

338 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Aug 20, 2010 11:59:36pm

re: #336 elbruce

I am? All I said is that you have one set of contiguous borders with two kinds of citizens that live inside it, that's apartheid.

What is your name for it? Please explain!

There are not, in fact, two kinds of citizens. Palestinians living under the PA are not Israeli citizens.

339 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 12:01:53am

I'm going to bed, all. Have a funeral in the AM.

340 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 12:04:28am

Zuheir Mohsen was a longtime PLO big wig. And he was the most honest terrorist of them all ...
========
Zuhair Mohsen is perhaps most widely known in the West for having made the following statement in a March 1977 interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw[1]:

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.
For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.
While this contravened the PLO charter, which affirms the existence of a Palestinian people with national rights, it was in line with al-Sa'iqa's Syrian-Ba'thist ideology.

341 sagehen  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 12:15:53am

re: #340 _RememberTonyC


===
Zuhair Mohsen is perhaps most widely known in the West for having made the following statement in a March 1977 interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw[1]:

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese.

The Jordanians, Syrians and Lebanese would beg to differ.


.
For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

Again, not how the Jordanians see things.

Zuhair may have actually believed every word of that, may even still believe it (is he alive?), but it's about as realistic (and as representative of the views of the people he thinks he's speaking for) as the things some occasional Puerto Rican says about independence.

342 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 12:27:40am

re: #336 elbruce

I am? All I said is that you have one set of contiguous borders with two kinds of citizens that live inside it, that's apartheid.

What is your name for it? Please explain!

I am not a "sensitive, liberal person", so you probably do not want to engage in conversation with me.

343 elbruce  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 12:41:00am

re: #335 Varek Raith

Heh.
If Cato's a neocon I'm...
Good grief, I can't think of anything more extreme!
It would appear that anyone right of center is a neocon to you.

Not at all. For example, Ron Paul is extremely isolationist, though definitely "right of center." I could hardly call him a "neocon," as that describes a right-wing liberal foreign policy position.

.

re: #337 Varek Raith

What did you have against the first Gulf War?

Nothing. The President made sure to get clear and specific authorization from the U.N. provided he didn't actully enter Iraq itself, which he didn't. He made sure that the international community was on his side, and he didn't exceed the bounds of authority that they granted him. That one was done very correctly. His extensive prior experience as U.N. Ambassador and in the C.I.A. was put to good use there, and it made all the difference between a belligerent invasion vs. universally authorized action.

.

re: #338 SanFranciscoZionist

There are not, in fact, two kinds of citizens. Palestinians living under the PA are not Israeli citizens.

What nation on the map are they citizens of? I don't see a "Palestine" on my map. What country are those people citizens of? What nation is responsible for their rights?

Controlling the border around a people should give you the responsibility of those people, which is to say, they should be citizens of the nation bounded by that border. If not, what nation are they citizens of? If none, then they must be non-citizens of your nation, which is to say that you're practicing apartheid.

This isn't that complicated. If they live in your country as it's shown on the map, but you don't count them as citizens of that country, then they're second-class citizens of your country. That's what apartheid is.

344 elbruce  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 12:45:54am

re: #338 SanFranciscoZionist

Palestinians living under the PA are not Israeli citizens.

Exactly my point.

If you draw some borders around a people and then say that some of the people inside your borders are not citizens, that's what apartheid is. Either give them a country which affords them their own citizenship rights, give them equal citizenship rights in your country, or admit that you're practicing apartheid. There is no fourth option.

345 swamprat  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 12:54:40am

re: #336 elbruce

I am? All I said is that you have one set of contiguous borders with two kinds of citizens that live inside it, that's apartheid.

What is your name for it? Please explain!

Explain what? America has several hundred different kinds of people within our borders. What is your point?
There are Muslims in the Israeli government.. Elected officials. Show me a Jewish elected official in Palestine. Apartheid!
The only use Palestinians have for the rest of the world is as a thorn in the side of Israel. Egypt won't let them come and go, won't let them immigrate. Jordan, the Emirates, Syria,... who welcomes the Palestinians?
Palestine is a professional welfare state, whose only duty is to be a problem to the Jews. And they are paid well for this service.
I will gladly listen to opposing viewpoints, but that is how I see it. They don't want peace. And no matter what they say, and no matter what others say, they don't want to kill ALL the Jews. That would end the paycheck, you see. They want everything to go on just as it has. This is what they do. They are professional victims. And they will manufacture their victimhood through any source they can; be it lies, spin or entrapment.
I see two solutions to this state of affairs; America can let them come here, ... Or we can pay them more money to be nice, than the rest of the world pays them to kick Israel in the nuts..

That's how I see it.

346 swamprat  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 1:06:48am

re: #343 elbruce


Here ; click on the blue word.

One of these was the son of an Arab Muslim citizen of Israel who had even served in the IDF. I quote certain interesting paragraphs: ...


You seem to be either lying, or confused. Perhaps it's me. It is rather late.

Good night.

347 swamprat  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 1:09:30am

re: #344 elbruce

Exactly my point.

If you draw some borders around a people and then say that some of the people inside your borders are not citizens, that's what apartheid is. Either give them a country which affords them their own citizenship rights, give them equal citizenship rights in your country, or admit that you're practicing apartheid. There is no fourth option.

They're in Palestine. They are citizens of Palestine.

348 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 1:26:59am

re: #63 Killgore Trout

Except that's an SG.....

349 elbruce  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 1:30:26am

re: #345 swamprat

Explain what? America has several hundred different kinds of people within our borders. What is your point?


They all have equal protection under the law. They are all American citizens.

There are Muslims in the Israeli government.. Elected officials. Show me a Jewish elected official in Palestine. Apartheid!


Show me Palestine. Show me the map where Palestine is a sovereign nation. Remember, they all live in a country where the flag is a religious symbol (Star of David over a Tallit) adn the name of the country is the other folks' religion ("Israel"). How can you be an equal citizen of such a country?

They don't want peace.


I bet a lot of the millions of regular folks trying to hold down a job and raise a family do. But nobody ever asks them.

And no matter what they say, and no matter what others say, they don't want to kill ALL the Jews. That would end the paycheck, you see. They want everything to go on just as it has. This is what they do. They are professional victims. And they will manufacture their victimhood through any source they can; be it lies, spin or entrapment.


What kind of people would you imagine actually want to live like that? How degraded do you think they are that you think they could possibly want to live on presumed subsidies bought by a regular flow of blood and self-subjugation?

You're basically saying of an entire people that the have zero self respect. That's a prety damn bigoted thing to say of anyone.

350 windsagio  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 2:04:22am

had a power outage in the midst of being cussed out; anything up today?

351 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 2:08:46am

Why is it I can't sleep? Don't say it's the Nerds.

353 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 2:18:26am

Gonna go make a ham and cheese omelet and sprinkle it Tabasco. Cheers.

354 windsagio  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 2:33:20am

re: #352 WindUpBird

I so desperately want to believe that's a parody site, trying to figure it out currently. Its pretty burn-ey as it is.

355 windsagio  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 2:33:55am

re: #354 windsagio

Nevermind, I'm dumb; 'why do rabbits rape cats?' answers all my questions :D

356 Kragar  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 2:47:21am

re: #355 windsagio

Nevermind, I'm dumb; 'why do rabbits rape cats?' answers all my questions :D

Because a deer's ass is too high and who doesn't like a little pussy?

Duh

357 elbruce  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 2:48:40am

re: #347 swamprat

They're in Palestine. They are citizens of Palestine.

Cool. I'm glad that the two-state plan has been implemented and that they each are functioning as independent sovereign nations now. I also am riding my magical pegasus-unicorn into a glorious sunset because I believe I'm in the Matrix, and am therefore tripping balls on this wicked awesome artificial reality. What else you got?

Who's in charge of this Palestinian state, anyway? The Flying Spaghetti Monster?

358 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 3:02:17am

re: #354 windsagio

I so desperately want to believe that's a parody site, trying to figure it out currently. Its pretty burn-ey as it is.

Oh it is, the writing is too good for it not to be

359 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 3:47:47am

re: #358 WindUpBird

Oh it is, the writing is too good for it not to be

How can you tell? I no longer have any ability to tell the difference between real batshit-crazy and parody batshit-crazy.

Is this parody?

360 windsagio  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 4:15:42am

re: #357 elbruce

You're a brave awesome man, takin' on the whole field like that.

For me it always ends up in crazy hate and recrimination, so its good to see someone coming right at them.

Don't let the bastards grind you down!

361 reine.de.tout  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 4:18:34am

re: #360 windsagio

You're a brave awesome man, takin' on the whole field like that.

For me it always ends up in crazy hate and recrimination, so its good to see someone coming right at them.

Don't let the bastards grind you down!

The what? The who?
Windy. Really, now.

362 windsagio  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 4:19:43am

re: #361 reine.de.tout

The what? The who?
Windy. Really, now.

Oh I don't mean it literally, sorry.

Its just a cool catchphrase I picked up from the radio. WUB knows where its from.

But yeah, wasn't even thinking of that, sorry :(

363 reine.de.tout  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 4:22:41am

re: #362 windsagio

Oh I don't mean it literally, sorry.

Its just a cool catchphrase I picked up from the radio. WUB knows where its from.

But yeah, wasn't even thinking of that, sorry :(

Heh.
I figured you didn't mean it, mean it.

BTW, I still have a tab open (from a day or two ago) of your brother's art. Fascinating. I'm no art expert, but it looks pretty amazing to me. The purchase instructions are unclear to me, though, and I'm interested in buying a print. I send them an e-mail, then make arrangements to send 'em a check? No paypal options or anything?

364 windsagio  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 4:31:35am

re: #363 reine.de.tout

My mom's pretty low-tech, and she's the one running it. Let me check the email, otherwise, I'll figure out how to get you hers (or her phone).

And yeah, its pretty cool (but I might be prejudiced), he certainly thinks of things uniquely.

My email is my nick @ gmail if you wanna just do it that way, I looked and I have NO IDEA if that email is actually connected to something or not.

SS also wants a piece, so I'll call her in the morning. I'm sure you'll make her day, just don't say anything TOO bad about me :) (You could probably commiserate about my awful liberal politics tho :D)

365 windsagio  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 4:33:05am

re: #364 windsagio

lol she has their home phone on there ;)

You could totally call that actually, and just say something like 'I saw it online, I'd love to buy something.' She's caring for her grandkids some during the day (depending on the day), but she's always thrilled. And she loves to talk about Chris, so ask her :)

Talking about me costs extra >>

366 windsagio  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 4:33:36am

And to spam, I"m going to bed, thanks for making my night Reine :D:D:D:D:D:D

367 reine.de.tout  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 4:36:21am

re: #364 windsagio

My mom's pretty low-tech, and she's the one running it. Let me check the email, otherwise, I'll figure out how to get you hers (or her phone).

And yeah, its pretty cool (but I might be prejudiced), he certainly thinks of things uniquely.

My email is my nick @ gmail if you wanna just do it that way, I looked and I have NO IDEA if that email is actually connected to something or not.

SS also wants a piece, so I'll call her in the morning. I'm sure you'll make her day, just don't say anything TOO bad about me :) (You could probably commiserate about my awful liberal politics tho :D)

K. I may just call.
LOL about your mom and commiserating - tho glad to hear someone in your family has more sense than you do.
/

368 shai_au  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 4:42:03am

Ruh roh. Looking like a hung parliament in the Australian election.

369 sffilk  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 4:44:09am

re: #2 reine.de.tout

Why is the Army have a "Spiritual Fitness Concert Series"?

Because this general can.

370 sffilk  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 4:51:31am

Here's some more news on it:

[Link: www.sfgate.com...]

[Link: www.truth-out.org...]

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

[Link: www.google.com...]

371 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 4:56:48am

Wow! Just heard on Headline News that wikileaks honcho Julian Assange has been charged with rape and molestation in Sweden.

Prosecutors: WikiLeaks founder suspected of rape

I knew this bastard would go down one way or the other but this is a bolt from the blue.

(To be pedantic, I said "charged" rather than "suspected" because people are not really arrested on suspicion, media usage not withstanding, and the Swedish authorities have in fact issued a warrant for Assange.)

372 reine.de.tout  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 4:59:27am

re: #371 Shiplord Kirel

Wow! Just heard on Headline News that wikileaks honcho Julian Assange has been charged with rape and molestation in Sweden.

Prosecutors: WikiLeaks founder suspected of rape

I knew this bastard would go down one way or the other but this is a bolt from the blue.

(To be pedantic, I said "charged" rather than "suspected" because people are not really arrested on suspicion, media usage not withstanding, and the Swedish authorities have in fact issued a warrant for Assange.)

I just posted a page with that news.
Couldn't believe it when I saw the headline.

373 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 5:05:46am

re: #360 windsagio

You're a brave awesome man, takin' on the whole field like that.

For me it always ends up in crazy hate and recrimination, so its good to see someone coming right at them.

Don't let the bastards grind you down!

Ignorance loves company, eh?

374 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 5:09:37am

relevant to the topic

375 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 5:12:34am

Get out of bed, lizards. Do your duty and entertain me!

376 reine.de.tout  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 5:13:24am

re: #368 shai_au

Ruh roh. Looking like a hung parliament in the Australian election.

I was just reading about that.
From the story I was looking at:

Gillard, a Welsh-born immigrant who grew up in the southern Australian city of Adelaide, acknowledged before polls closed that Labor could lose its entire eight-seat majority in the 150-seat House of Representatives. Labor won 83 seats at the last election in 2007.

Issues vary across the large and diverse country, but asylum seekers, health care and climate change are hot topics nationwide. Another issue brought to the forefront Saturday was the presence of the Australian military in Afghanistan, where two soldiers were killed the day before. The government and opposition both support Australia's military commitment to Afghanistan, where 20 Australian troops have now died.

I found the "issues" list interesting, as it so closely resembles the ones here.

377 reine.de.tout  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 5:14:03am

re: #375 negativ

Get out of bed, lizards. Do your duty and entertain me!

How 'bout you entertain me?

378 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 5:19:25am

re: #377 reine.de.tout

ooh la la

379 sffilk  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 5:28:43am

re: #105 freetoken

I wonder how the investigation will come out?

Army Probes Claim Soldiers Punished For Not Attending Christian Concert

I don't think anything will come of it. There was a similar problem at the Air Force Academy a few years back. A friend of mine, Rabbi Arnold Resnicoff, was brought in to investigate and make recommendations as to what to do. I know he put recommendations in and I think they were implemented, but I wonder if they're still in effect.

380 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 5:30:14am

Agreements are made to be broken alert:

Bahrain will not allow US to attack Iran from its territory
By JPOST.COM STAFF
08/21/2010 14:10
The Bahraini goverment will not allow the United States to use its military base to attack Iran despite any military agreements between the two countries, Bahraini Foriegn Minister Khalid bin Ahmed al-Khalifa said Saturday.
According to Army Radio reports, his remarks were made in a newspaper interview.
[Link: www.jpost.com...]


Does this mean that an attack is imminent?/

381 shai_au  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 5:39:30am

re: #376 reine.de.tout

I was just reading about that.
From the story I was looking at:

I found the "issues" list interesting, as it so closely resembles the ones here.

Yes. America and Australia really are mirrors of each other in several ways. And as I said in another thread, the fuss about the "major problem" of asylum seekers was a factor in my own rejection of the major parties, and protest vote for the Greens.

Anyway, it's definitely looking like a hung parliament now, with the Liberals getting more seats than Labor. If they combine with 3 conservative independents, they might be able to form government. It'll be tough for whoever wins, though.

It has some parallels with the UK election, actually.

382 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 5:48:24am

re: #371 Shiplord Kirel

Wow! Just heard on Headline News that wikileaks honcho Julian Assange has been charged with rape and molestation in Sweden.


(To be pedantic, I said "charged" rather than "suspected" because people are not really arrested on suspicion, media usage not withstanding, and the Swedish authorities have in fact issued a warrant for Assange.)

I'd note that it's actually rather hard to get arrested for rape in Sweden; at least, it was over the past decade. There's been a movement there to try to bring them in line with modern thinking, but they still were used the 'no force, no rape' line of thought.

It's a little odd that people are immediately suspected the Swedish government of doing this for the sake of the US-- the Swedish government doesn't do a hell of a lot for the US. They're rather famously independent.

383 McSpiff  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 6:10:21am

re: #371 Shiplord Kirel

I am shocked, shocked I say, that this man turned out to be a creep.

///

384 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 6:17:48am

re: #376 reine.de.tout

I was just reading about that.
From the story I was looking at:

I found the "issues" list interesting, as it so closely resembles the ones here.

In many ways it should not, though. Part of the reason that the Liberals (the conservative party) were turfed out of government three years ago, after a decade of roaring economic success and in the absence of any economic or social hardship, was that the issues list the Prime Minister wanted to push was a little too American in flavour. There were other factors - a workplace relations legislation that went too far, electorate fatigue after a decade of party rule - but one of the factors was definitely that Howard would continually try to raise wedge issues that had been very successful for the Republicans in the US, but fundamentally did not resonate or matter to the Australian people. Issues such as gay marriage, pledges of allegiance, bills of rights and so forth - issues that are not divisive and not interesting to Australians. Australian politics is fundamentally different - exciting your base is not necessary and usually counterproductive, and winning elections is absolutely about converting the middle.

Three years ago Labor took power with the most popular Prime Minister in Australian history, having forced out the party that had essentially ensured Australian prosperity through two global recessions. Now, three years later, that popular Prime Minister has been removed as a liability by his own party, and only one election later, a Liberal party leader who has been considered unelectable for twenty years is now that close to the Prime Ministership. It's a stunning electoral victory, and a mark of how ineffectual the Labor Party has been in the last three years.

Liberals are the party I have always voted. I am not especially happy with a couple of their current policies, which are a little ideologic and not based on common sense, but these are only a couple of policies, even though they are big ones. Australia has prospered through two global recessions largely thanks to their economic management, and we'll see if a brief time out of power will teach them to temper the occasional hardcore bit of far-right rhetoric that turned so many off them in the first place.

385 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 6:25:28am

re: #383 McSpiff

I am shocked, shocked I say, that this man turned out to be a creep.

///

There is a douchebag who is supporting the creep and offers to send money to his defense fund...

HAGERSTOWN, Md. — Filmmaker Michael Moore is praising an Army private suspected of releasing classified war records to WikiLeaks and said he would contribute to his defense.

Moore tells The Associated Press in an interview that he considers Pfc. Bradley Manning a courageous patriot for exposing what Moore called "war crimes."

The Oscar-winning filmmaker said Thursday he will contribute to a legal defense fund for the 22-year-old former intelligence analyst, who faces up to 52 years in prison.

386 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 6:25:37am

re: #48 Fozzie Bear

And the response would be "THE MUSLIM CRYPTO-FASCIST DICTATOR MASQUERADING AS A PRESIDENT HAS BEGUN HIS HOLY WAR AGAINST OUT ARMY OF GOD!!!"

No, Obama would be absolutely retarded to publicly address this. This needs to be handles internally, by the generals. Obama should put pressure on them to do so, but it is a bad idea for Obama to try to publicly take this one head-on.

Sadly, that would indeed be the response. Sorry I didn't join the discussion last night, I was simply too sleepy.

387 PAUL_MACDONALD  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 6:26:00am

Looks like it's safe to go a bit off topic. Anyway, here's what a Facebook search gets you when you type in "mosk". Mostly, it's good for a laugh but there's an undertone that is rather creepy.

"Douglass R Campbell AMERICANS THE BUILDING OF THIS MOSK WILL BE PART OF OUR DOWN FALL FOR THIS REASON. IT WILL SEMBLESISES THE DEFEIT OF THE AMERICAN WAY WE ARE ALLREADY THE LAFFING STOCK OF THE MUSLUMS AFTER 9/11 BECAUSE ALL MUSLUMS WERE TOLD TO STAY HOME AND NO ONE TOLD THE AMERICANS."

These are the people who wouldn't need to be forced to go to a Evangelical concert put on by the US Army.

388 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 6:28:27am

re: #385 NJDhockeyfan

There is a douchebag who is supporting the creep and offers to send money to his defense fund...

Naturally Moore would support Manning. He never met an American military effort he didn't want to trash. Moore hates his own country.

389 sffilk  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 6:39:00am

re: #357 elbruce

Cool. I'm glad that the two-state plan has been implemented and that they each are functioning as independent sovereign nations now. I also am riding my magical pegasus-unicorn into a glorious sunset because I believe I'm in the Matrix, and am therefore tripping balls on this wicked awesome artificial reality. What else you got?

Who's in charge of this Palestinian state, anyway? The Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Actually, if you'll remember your history, 77% of the British Mandate of Palestine was given to the Palestinian Arabs in 1922. It's now known as the Kingdom of Jordan.

390 Nervous Norvous  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 6:39:04am

Mornin' Lizards....Looking forward to a very good day..pull weeds this morning, sushi for lunch, go see Nanny McPhee with wife and Peanut, then play poker with the boys and then repeat with the mrs when I get home.

391 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 6:53:36am

I'm reminded of the chaplin with whom Dickhead and I did marital counselling. After the second session, the chaplin--a fundamentalist Baptist--told me, "Mandy, I've never said this before but, get away from this man. Don't drop the separation petition. File for divorce."

392 What, me worry?  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 6:56:59am

re: #387 PAUL_MACDONALD

Looks like it's safe to go a bit off topic. Anyway, here's what a Facebook search gets you when you type in "mosk". Mostly, it's good for a laugh but there's an undertone that is rather creepy.

"Douglass R Campbell AMERICANS THE BUILDING OF THIS MOSK WILL BE PART OF OUR DOWN FALL FOR THIS REASON. IT WILL SEMBLESISES THE DEFEIT OF THE AMERICAN WAY WE ARE ALLREADY THE LAFFING STOCK OF THE MUSLUMS AFTER 9/11 BECAUSE ALL MUSLUMS WERE TOLD TO STAY HOME AND NO ONE TOLD THE AMERICANS."

These are the people who wouldn't need to be forced to go to a Evangelical concert put on by the US Army.

That was interesting. I noticed this response further down.

Michael Holt It was actually the Jews who did it, as much as I hate Muslims The Jews are responsible I''ll direct you to the evidence, but busy right now.

Thank goodness we didn't want to put a synagogue there!!

What is happening to my country? Where they hell am I?

393 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 6:59:24am

This guy was all about saving marriagees. He was a chaplin in Special Forces so he knew about the strains of frequent and long deployments. He knew about readjustment and emotional issues SFers might have after doing the their jobs in the big, nasty world. He knew all about Dickhead's record, commendations, medals, blah blah blah. But, he told me that he'd never met evil face-to-face until he 'fronted Dickhead.

394 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:04:11am

re: #393 MandyManners

Does the dickhead see the kid for visitations?

395 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:05:30am

Afghan couple stoned to death by the Taliban

A 25-year-old man and 19-year-old woman who eloped together have been stoned to death in a shocking display of Taliban power.

The Afghan couple were brutally killed when their own families requested that the Taliban arrest the pair after the couple, who were engaged to other people, ran away together.

An Amnesty International spokesman said: ‘The stoning of this couple is a heinous crime. The Taliban and other insurgent groups are growing increasingly brutal in their abuses against Afghans.’

...The Taliban are now regularly exercising their powers, imposing their severe version of sharia law for social crimes.

Earlier this year, reports revealed that Islamic militants had whipped and then stoned to death a women accused of adultery.

396 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:05:52am

re: #393 MandyManners

This guy was all about saving marriagees. He was a chaplin in Special Forces so he knew about the strains of frequent and long deployments. He knew about readjustment and emotional issues SFers might have after doing the their jobs in the big, nasty world. He knew all about Dickhead's record, commendations, medals, blah blah blah. But, he told me that he'd never met evil face-to-face until he 'fronted Dickhead.

That's the mark of a good man. He knew when he was looking at a situation that called for a different approach and took that approach without flinching. He also knew evil and wasn't afraid to call it evil.

397 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:08:11am

re: #394 HoosierHoops

Does the dickhead see the kid for visitations?

No. He has no contact. He doesn't even know where we are. The court ordered that he has no parenting time at all, and he signed it. He's behind in CS $120,000.00.

398 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:09:21am

re: #395 NJDhockeyfan

Afghan couple stoned to death by the Taliban

I hope their momma's are fucking happy now.

399 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:09:55am

re: #397 MandyManners

No. He has no contact. He doesn't even know where we are. The court ordered that he has no parenting time at all, and he signed it. He's behind in CS $120,000.00.

A deadbeat Dad to boot...Wishing you well today...

400 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:12:10am

Taliban kill 25 road crew guards in Afghanistan

Taliban militants killed 25 security guards of a road construction project in southern Afghanistan during a 13-hour firefight earlier in the week a government spokesman disclosed Saturday.

'Dozen of Taliban attacked a security company midnight Thursday, killing at least 25 guards,' Daud Ahmadi said, adding 50 insurgents were killed in the gun battle.

Dozens others from both sides were wounded in the gun battle that lasted for 13 hours.

Our neighbouring countries are behind this attack as they do not want to see development in Afghanistan, he said, without naming any country. The road connects Helmand's Sangin and Gereshk districts with the Kabul-Herat highway.

A spokesman for the Taliban insurgents, Qari Yousuf Ahmaid, claimed responsibility, but put the number of security guards killed at 50. It was twice the number that the government spokesman had given.

401 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:14:19am

re: #396 Dark_Falcon

That's the mark of a good man. He knew when he was looking at a situation that called for a different approach and took that approach without flinching. He also knew evil and wasn't afraid to call it evil.

He was quite candid with me during my last meeting. He said he'd never seen anyone quite like Dickhead. During our last joint session, Dickhead had demanded that I abort and had said that he would have nothing to do with the child if I chose to carry it to term.

I struggle to keep hatred for that asshole ut of my heart.

BTW, this has nothing to do with Dickhead's being a SFer. He'd be a fucking bastard if he were a CPA.

402 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:16:11am

I posted this last night..The first Beer Jordan and his Buddy's had when they returned from Iraq..The look on their face is priceless.
[Link: i1002.photobucket.com...]

403 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:16:14am

re: #399 HoosierHoops

A deadbeat Dad to boot...Wishing you well today...

So help me but, every now and then I wonder what it would have been like if he'd caught a bullet between his eyes in Iraq. The Kid would then have had a dead hero for a father instead of a selfish bastard.

404 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:16:46am

re: #400 NJDhockeyfan

Taliban kill 25 road crew guards in Afghanistan

Killing those who are trying to make a better world.

405 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:16:49am

re: #401 MandyManners

He was quite candid with me during my last meeting. He said he'd never seen anyone quite like Dickhead. During our last joint session, Dickhead had demanded that I abort and had said that he would have nothing to do with the child if I chose to carry it to term.

I struggle to keep hatred for that asshole ut of my heart.

BTW, this has nothing to do with Dickhead's being a SFer. He'd be a fucking bastard if he were a CPA.

Thank God you were able to get away from him safely. Some women stay and end up in the hospital, or worse.

406 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:18:33am

re: #402 HoosierHoops

I posted this last night..The first Beer Jordan and his Buddy's had when they returned from Iraq..The look on their face is priceless.
[Link: i1002.photobucket.com...]

Awesome couple of men!

407 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:21:06am

re: #404 MandyManners

Killing those who are trying to make a better world.

Unlike some their other targets though, this actually makes sense from a military point of view. More all-weather roads means the Coalition and Afghan army can easily move forces into the area. for the Taliban, that means defeat. I'm not saying the Talibs aren't scum for having done this, but I do understand it.

408 Nemesis6  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:22:51am

A true and hilarious post from the comments section at the Huffington Post:
"So, these young men and women have dedicated their lives to protecting America's freedom? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! The joke's on them, isn't it!"

410 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:24:57am

re: #405 NJDhockeyfan

Thank God you were able to get away from him safely. Some women stay and end up in the hospital, or worse.

When I booted him out, he refused to pay the utilities. My attorney ran into his attorney in the courthouse the day that she filed a motion to force him to pay them. His attorney got ahold of him very quickly and chewed his ass out in the middle of the hall. When I moved to Denver, he refused to pay the court-ordered spousal support so I had to go to his CO. Who was busy preparing to kick Saddam's ass. At one point, I had to get my Senator involved to do a do-hickey (I can't recall the name of the procedure) whereby the whole fucking chain of command would've been ordered to the Senate in order to explain why Dickhead was not obeying a legal court order. Gosh, it was a fucking nightmare.

411 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:25:58am

re: #406 MandyManners

Awesome couple of men!

Thank you..I am a very proud dad of a United States Marine

412 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:26:19am

re: #407 Dark_Falcon

Unlike some their other targets though, this actually makes sense from a military point of view. More all-weather roads means the Coalition and Afghan army can easily move forces into the area. for the Taliban, that means defeat. I'm not saying the Talibs aren't scum for having done this, but I do understand it.

Oh, I understand it, too. But, you know it shows that they don't care about the lives of the Afghanistanis. All it shows is that they want to rule their world.

413 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:26:47am

re: #408 Nemesis6

A true and hilarious post from the comments section at the Huffington Post:
"So, these young men and women have dedicated their lives to protecting America's freedom? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! The joke's on them, isn't it!"

Are you shitting me?!

414 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:27:15am

re: #411 HoosierHoops

Thank you..I am a very proud dad of a United States Marine

*big grin*

415 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:28:33am

re: #408 Nemesis6

A true and hilarious post from the comments section at the Huffington Post:
"So, these young men and women have dedicated their lives to protecting America's freedom? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! The joke's on them, isn't it!"

Fucking shitbag at HuffP.

[spit]

416 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:29:31am

re: #409 NJDhockeyfan

Taliban commander linked to Iran, al Qaeda targeted in western Afghanistan

Iranian money? Boys need to get serious and use American dollars.

417 Nemesis6  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:31:46am

re: #415 NJDhockeyfan

But it is very ironic, and arguably hilarious! -- The military defeating its own ideals by becoming like the taliban themselves.

418 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:32:26am

re: #417 Nemesis6

But it is very ironic, and arguably hilarious! -- The military defeating its own ideals by becoming like the taliban themselves.

They chopped off heads?

419 reine.de.tout  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:32:32am

re: #408 Nemesis6

A true and hilarious post from the comments section at the Huffington Post:
"So, these young men and women have dedicated their lives to protecting America's freedom? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! The joke's on them, isn't it!"

True? Hilarious?

Sorry - right now I prefer Hoosier Hoops, whose son you just insulted:


re: #411 HoosierHoops

Thank you..I am a very proud dad of a United States Marine

420 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:33:17am

re: #417 Nemesis6

But it is very ironic, and arguably hilarious! -- The military defeating its own ideals by becoming like the taliban themselves.

How many people did they stoned to death?

421 Nemesis6  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:35:01am

Also, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation has a page aimed at this issue: [Link: www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org...]

Not the same story that's on HPOST, these deal with the army responding to the claims. And as it turns out, the liars-for-christ involved in this are unrepentant.

422 reine.de.tout  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:35:43am

re: #275 elbruce

a

I do remember Shep Smith on Fox News standing in front of the Superdome saying, "is anyone in the federal government hearing this? There are thousands of stranded and hungry people without water right behind me, are you receiving this transmission?"

That's exactly the point at which I realized the Bush Administration was too foul even for FAUX News. It's also the point at which the MSM finally proved it could move faster than the government.

The same Shep Smith who was claiming people were cannibalizing each other?

Actually, the supplies were there. Due to misinformation and misdirection from STATE OFFICIALS, it was sitting in a parking lot nowhere near the dome.

423 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:36:11am

re: #419 reine.de.tout

True? Hilarious?

Sorry - right now I prefer Hoosier Hoops, whose son you just insulted:

re: #411 HoosierHoops

Nice example of tolerance, eh?

//

424 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:37:34am

re: #413 MandyManners

Are you shitting me?!

No, its the kind of thing you still find at HuffPo. They cleared out the unhinged haters, but they've still got plenty of left-liberals who derive some sort of sick pleasure from comparing evangelicals to the Taliban.

425 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:37:43am

re: #421 Nemesis6

Also, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation has a page aimed at this issue: [Link: www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org...]

Not the same story that's on HPOST, these deal with the army responding to the claims. And as it turns out, the liars-for-christ involved in this are unrepentant.

Well, shame on them. They'll get their just-comeuppance one day.

426 reine.de.tout  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:38:09am

re: #423 NJDhockeyfan

Nice example of tolerance, eh?

//

Huh.
Oh, yes.

And apparently, also, there now seems to be yet one more person here who is going to believe what the reporters said about Katrina and the response to it at NOLA, rather than what I actually saw with my own actual eyes. Not saying the response was perfect because it was NOT. Neither was the state and local build-up before the storm.

427 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:38:20am

re: #423 NJDhockeyfan

Nice example of tolerance, eh?

//

QUICK! LET'S JERK OUT OUR CLAIMS OF MORAL EQUIVALENCE!!!

428 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:39:06am

re: #424 Dark_Falcon

No, its the kind of thing you still find at HuffPo. They cleared out the unhinged haters, but they've still got plenty of left-liberals who derive some sort of sick pleasure from comparing evangelicals to the Taliban.

I think I nailed it in my No. 424.

429 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:39:24am

re: #428 MandyManners

I think I nailed it in my No. 424.

Uh. No. 427.

430 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:39:42am

re: #427 MandyManners

QUICK! LET'S JERK OUT OUR CLAIMS OF MORAL EQUIVALENCE!!!

Pull your skirt back down, Mandy.

///

431 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:40:22am

re: #430 Dark_Falcon

Pull your skirt back down, Mandy.

///

Boris is dead.

432 RogueOne  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:41:26am

re: #421 Nemesis6

Also, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation has a page aimed at this issue: [Link: www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org...]

Not the same story that's on HPOST, these deal with the army responding to the claims. And as it turns out, the liars-for-christ involved in this are unrepentant.

I'm going to want to know more about all of this before jumping to the same conclusion as the huffpo writer. The unit was being marched around to chow hall which sounds an awful lot like a Basic/AIT class. While going through basic training my unit was given the choice of going to the circus or remaining in our barracks, I chose barracks. If this is the same situation then I'm betting the "punishment" has been completely overblown. If not, then some officer has just thrown his career out the window.

433 RogueOne  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:44:13am

re: #424 Dark_Falcon

No, its the kind of thing you still find at HuffPo. They cleared out the unhinged haters, but they've still got plenty of left-liberals who derive some sort of sick pleasure from comparing evangelicals to the Taliban.

Another reason not to read the comments.

434 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:44:37am

re: #432 RogueOne

I'm going to want to know more about all of this before jumping to the same conclusion as the huffpo writer. The unit was being marched around to chow hall which sounds an awful lot like a Basic/AIT class. While going through basic training my unit was given the choice of going to the circus or remaining in our barracks, I chose barracks. If this is the same situation then I'm betting the "punishment" has been completely overblown. If not, then some officer has just thrown his career out the window.

Good point. It's important to remember the Huffington Post does have a liberal bias. They didn't pull this story out of thin air, but they might well be giving too much credence to people who are attacking evangelicals.

435 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:44:44am

re: #432 RogueOne

Why don't people realize that we're commanded to preach the Gospel, not to shove it down others' throats?!

436 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:45:19am

re: #434 Dark_Falcon

Good point. It's important to remember the Huffington Post does have a liberal bias. They didn't pull this story out of thin air, but they might well be giving too much credence to people who are attacking evangelicals.

*gasp*

437 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:45:24am

We are working on a settlement plan with the terrorists? WTF?? Can we call it a surrender plan instead?

Sen. Kerry: 'Very active' efforts under way to reach settlement with Taliban

Sen. John Kerry, the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said Friday that there is a "very active" effort under way to reach a negotiated political settlement with the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Kerry (D-Mass.) acknowledged that "efforts" have begun after visiting Afghanistan and Pakistan this week, meeting with Afghan President Hamid Karzai and other officials.

"I can report without being specific that there are efforts under way. They are serious and I completely agree with that fundamental premise — and so does General [David] Petraeus and so does President Obama — there is no military solution," he told NPR. "And there are very active efforts now to seek an appropriate kind of political settlement."

U.S. officials have acknowledged that some sort of political settlement must be reached with the Taliban -- a loosely affiliated group of Islamic insurgents that control large swaths of territory in Afghanistan -- in order to bring an end to the almost nine-year-long U.S. war there.

438 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:46:20am

re: #433 RogueOne

Another reason not to read the comments.

True. The non-medical stories are sometimes well worth reading now. On medical issues, the HuffPo embraces the anti-vax and homeopathic mindsets, which are both crazy,

439 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:46:29am

re: #437 NJDhockeyfan

We are working on a settlement plan with the terrorists? WTF?? Can we call it a surrender plan instead?

Sen. Kerry: 'Very active' efforts under way to reach settlement with Taliban

John Fucking Kerry.

440 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:47:01am

re: #437 NJDhockeyfan

We are working on a settlement plan with the terrorists? WTF?? Can we call it a surrender plan instead?

Sen. Kerry: 'Very active' efforts under way to reach settlement with Taliban

And, he's a goshdarn liar.

441 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:47:11am

re: #437 NJDhockeyfan

I wish Sen Kerry would stop reporting for duty.. Just go away

442 RogueOne  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:47:15am

re: #435 MandyManners

Why don't people realize that we're commanded to preach the Gospel, not to shove it down others' throats?!

A lot has changed over the last 50 years in the military. As an atheist I was warned many times that my lack of religious preference and being unmarried could be a drag on my career. I never had a problem but I can't speak for everyone.

443 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:47:21am

re: #436 MandyManners

*gasp*

Think that's bad, read the comments in a story involving Israel. The anti-Semitic reactions take over the comment section.

444 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:47:56am

I hope that fuck and the others who support his premise are willing and able to live with the horrors of misogyny that will rain down over that land.

445 reine.de.tout  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:48:13am

I'll BBL.

But before I go, I swear, if I hear one more person talking about how credible the news media was in their Katrina reporting, I think I'll barf.

446 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:48:18am

re: #441 HoosierHoops

I wish Sen Kerry would stop reporting for duty.. Just go away

HALP US JON CARY!

447 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:48:26am

re: #408 Nemesis6

A true and hilarious post from the comments section at the Huffington Post:
"So, these young men and women have dedicated their lives to protecting America's freedom? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! The joke's on them, isn't it!"

And you find it interesting to relate that to us... minus any commentary or opinion from you.... hmmmmm....

Breakfast anyone?

448 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:48:48am

re: #437 NJDhockeyfan

We are working on a settlement plan with the terrorists? WTF?? Can we call it a surrender plan instead?

Sen. Kerry: 'Very active' efforts under way to reach settlement with Taliban

Kerry likes talk and negotiate with Totalitarians. Just like when he went to Hanoi to po-mouth the US, and earlier when he participated in the smear-job the was the "Winter Soldier Investigation".

/spits on the Backstabbing Backbencher

449 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:49:00am

re: #442 RogueOne

A lot has changed over the last 50 years in the military. As an atheist I was warned many times that my lack of religious preference and being unmarried could be a drag on my career. I never had a problem but I can't speak for everyone.

In every organization in every nation in every era, there will be jerks of many stripes.

450 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:49:12am

re: #445 reine.de.tout

Did you check your mail?

451 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:49:28am

re: #443 NJDhockeyfan

Think that's bad, read the comments in a story involving Israel. The anti-Semitic reactions take over the comment section.

No shit. It's the same HuffPo that it's always been.

452 reine.de.tout  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:49:45am

re: #447 Walter L. Newton

And you find it interesting to relate that to us... minus any commentary or opinion from you... hmmm...

Breakfast anyone?

hehehe.
No.
I'm busy barfing.
/

btw - got the package, just LOVELY! I'm so going to enjoy that, along with the other goodies! Walter, thanks, you are very generous (and talented!)

453 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:49:49am

re: #445 reine.de.tout

Have a great day!

454 reine.de.tout  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:50:15am

re: #450 Walter L. Newton

Did you check your mail?

See:
re: #452 reine.de.tout

455 RogueOne  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:50:42am

Anyone know if Ablusteve had his surgery last friday? I've been wondering about him.

456 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:51:07am

re: #451 MandyManners

No shit. It's the same HuffPo that it's always been.

Not entirely. They have cleaned out the worst of the haters. Those people can now by found at Democratic Underground.

457 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:51:31am

re: #452 reine.de.tout

hehehe.
No.
I'm busy barfing.
/

btw - got the package, just LOVELY! I'm so going to enjoy that, along with the other goodies! Walter, thanks, you are very generous (and talented!)

You welcome... I'm going to show off what you got... (shameless self promotion)...

[Link: www.etsy.com...]

458 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:52:06am

re: #447 Walter L. Newton

And you find it interesting to relate that to us... minus any commentary or opinion from you... hmmm...

Breakfast anyone?

I'd love to eat some breakfast but if I do, my gut'll fill up, the blood will leave my head and I'll fall asleep on the way to pick up The Kid from practice. Jimminyfuckingcricket. I'd love to get some sleep in the morning but, no. Six fucking days a week I get up around 5:00 so that I can do what I gotta' do. Oh, what a world. I should just quit my fucking bitching and be grateful that I don't have to worry that the Taliban is gonna' blow up his school.

459 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:52:29am

re: #448 Dark_Falcon

Kerry likes talk and negotiate with Totalitarians. Just like when he went to Hanoi to po-mouth the US, and earlier when he participated in the smear-job the was the "Winter Soldier Investigation".

/spits on the Backstabbing Backbencher

Has he fellated Chavez?

460 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:53:18am

re: #456 Dark_Falcon

Not entirely. They have cleaned out the worst of the haters. Those people can now by found at Democratic Underground.

There are no anti-Semites left?

461 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:53:31am

re: #455 RogueOne

Anyone know if Ablusteve had his surgery last friday? I've been wondering about him.

He's fine. I spoke to him at the hospital last Wed. He's donig a happy dance with all the Dilantim (sp?) they are giving him. He's burping and passing gas and all the other good signs that his system is trying to return to normal.

I intend on calling him tomorrow or Monday for an update, which I will post to his get-well page on LGF.


[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

462 RogueOne  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:54:10am

re: #457 Walter L. Newton

That's some pretty stuff you have on there Walter.

463 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:54:36am

re: #456 Dark_Falcon

Not entirely. They have cleaned out the worst of the haters. Those people can now by found at Democratic Underground.

I read the comments on a story recently and the hate toward Jews & Israel was unbelievable.

464 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:54:42am

re: #462 RogueOne

That's some pretty stuff you have on there Walter.

Thanks...

465 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:55:49am

re: #461 Walter L. Newton

He's fine. I spoke to him at the hospital last Wed. He's donig a happy dance with all the Dilantim (sp?) they are giving him. He's burping and passing gas and all the other good signs that his system is trying to return to normal.

I intend on calling him tomorrow or Monday for an update, which I will post to his get-well page on LGF.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Thanks Walter...Good to hear he is doing better

466 cliffster  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:55:56am

Hey Walter - just sent you a note

467 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:57:53am

Speaking of HRH, The Kid, gotta' scoot down the road. bbiab

468 RogueOne  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:58:11am

re: #461 Walter L. Newton

Thanks. I'm going to have to add my registration email addy to my phone. The new subscription code is pretty nifty.

469 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 7:59:41am

re: #465 HoosierHoops

Thanks Walter...Good to hear he is doing better

Just a little more info... they removed the leg from below the right knee. They are going to fit him with a standard prothesis for starters, but from what I gather, he will have access to a more high tech device in the future.

470 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:01:18am

re: #469 Walter L. Newton

Just a little more info... they removed the leg from below the right knee. They are going to fit him with a standard prothesis for starters, but from what I gather, he will have access to a more high tech device in the future.

I woke up Friday the 13th in Oklahoma and thought of Steve..What a horrible thing to go through..Give him our best

471 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:03:39am

re: #470 HoosierHoops

I woke up Friday the 13th in Oklahoma and thought of Steve..What a horrible thing to go through..Give him our best

I will.

472 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:08:55am

Fears of 'mercenary' sniper in Afghan town after British soldier's death

Sapper Darren Foster of the Royal Engineers was shot as he passed a narrow slit in a bulletproof glass screen around a lookout post in the northern Helmand town.

US forces have disclosed that he is thought to have been one of three victims of a sniper at work in the area in just a week. One US marine was killed as he momentarily stepped out of an armoured vehicle to drop off a rubbish bag and another was injured on a bridge nearby.

The shootings raised fears that the Taliban may have hired a mercenary sniper to target Nato forces in the town which is now considered the most dangerous in Afghanistan.

There have been claims that at least three snipers trained in Iran or Pakistan are thought to be at work across Afghanistan.

473 RogueOne  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:10:02am

re: #469 Walter L. Newton

Just a little more info... they removed the leg from below the right knee. They are going to fit him with a standard prothesis for starters, but from what I gather, he will have access to a more high tech device in the future.

LGF's first bionic commenter. Albuusteveaustin.

474 cliffster  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:11:25am

re: #452 reine.de.tout


btw - got the package, just LOVELY! I'm so going to enjoy that, along with the other goodies! Walter, thanks, you are very generous (and talented!)

I got my package too. Pretty cool - just sending cool stuff out to us. I told my little girl they were rocks from space. She asked, "So he reached the stars??" (I always tell her that she needs to "Always reach for the stars"). Hehe. Thanks, Walter.

475 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:13:28am

re: #473 RogueOne

LGF's first bionic commenter. Albuusteveaustin.

The 6 million dollar lizard!

476 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:14:34am

re: #472 NJDhockeyfan

Fears of 'mercenary' sniper in Afghan town after British soldier's death

I'm surprised. Given the skill of the British army's snipers, working for the Taliban as a sniper is damn near suicidal.

477 cliffster  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:15:03am

re: #475 NJDhockeyfan

The 6 million dollar lizard!

20 million dollar lizard. Inflation...

478 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:15:53am

Where do people like this come from?

Swastika-Touting UFO Cult Plans Topless Protest

We'd give this a hearty "only in Miami," but that doesn't cover the interplanetary bent -- and universally recognized looniness -- of a group who plans to doff their tops on Lincoln Road on Sunday.

Members of the UFO religion International Raëlian Movement say they will protest Sunday at 4 p.m. against what they call sexist laws that prevent women from going topless as men do.

They plan to get their point across with pasties, men in red bras, and signs bearing a swastika inside a Star of David, the international symbol of the Raëlians.

That's usually trouble enough -- protests greeted the group at a 1992 gathering at the Eden Roc -- but this time, the Raëlians will be within yards of the Holocaust Memorial.

479 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:19:15am

re: #478 NJDhockeyfan

Where do people like this come from?

Swastika-Touting UFO Cult Plans Topless Protest

The Raëlian folks are one of the more "Sex" obsessed UFO cults in the business. Procreation with aliens and each other is high on the list of activities... snicker, snicker, snicker...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

480 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:19:41am

re: #478 NJDhockeyfan

Where do people like this come from?

Swastika-Touting UFO Cult Plans Topless Protest

Bunch of assholes. I say just ignore them.

481 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:20:00am

re: #479 Walter L. Newton

The Raëlian folks are one of the more "Sex" obsessed UFO cults in the business. Procreation with aliens and each other is high on the list of activities... snicker, snicker, snicker...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Sensuality is an important part of the Raëlian doctrine, though Raëlians recommend a non-contractual agreement between matured sexual partners.

482 Nemesis6  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:20:25am

re: #424 Dark_Falcon

But it's a valid comparison. The difference is that what the Taliban do with violence, the evangelicals do with lobbying power, intimidation, and money that buys them tremendous influence in areas they should never have been able to infiltrate, and infiltrate is the word best used to describe what they've been doing to the military. Remember what the article said about how the band wanted to bring the "armor of God" to the soldiers? They believe that. They believe that the soldiers are over there on a divine mission, as did Bush.

You've probably read a lot of the stuff here on LGF about the "Christian nation" meme that's spread around in the US -- That's what the evangelicals are pushing for, and that's not an exaggeration. In closing, the Taliban want the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, and the American Taliban wants One Nation under God. By the way, it's not just the evangelicals that are pushing this stuff, hence why I used the "One Nation under God" thing -- The Catholics managed to crowbar that one right past the whole secularism thing that America had going on.

483 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:21:08am

re: #480 Dark_Falcon

Bunch of assholes. I say just ignore them.

Been around since the 70's. I've know a good number of them back when I was a part time UFO researcher. Actually I dealt with a lot of Fortean subjects, both on the radio and in magazine articles I wrote.

484 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:23:55am

re: #482 Nemesis6

But it's a valid comparison. The difference is that what the Taliban do with violence, the evangelicals do with lobbying power, intimidation, and money that buys them tremendous influence in areas they should never have been able to infiltrate, and infiltrate is the word best used to describe what they've been doing to the military. Remember what the article said about how the band wanted to bring the "armor of God" to the soldiers? They believe that. They believe that the soldiers are over there on a divine mission, as did Bush.

You've probably read a lot of the stuff here on LGF about the "Christian nation" meme that's spread around in the US -- That's what the evangelicals are pushing for, and that's not an exaggeration. In closing, the Taliban want the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, and the American Taliban wants One Nation under God. By the way, it's not just the evangelicals that are pushing this stuff, hence why I used the "One Nation under God" thing -- The Catholics managed to crowbar that one right past the whole secularism thing that America had going on.

And that "movement" could be snuffed out in a week, just as fast as snuffing out any militia movements and other quasi-militaristic fringe groups...

You see a fundie hiding behind every rock and are no different than those who see the Jews behind every world event. It's the same mentality.

Boo...

485 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:26:57am

re: #480 Dark_Falcon

Bunch of assholes. I say just ignore them.

Digging through the Wiki entry, this paragraph hit's directly on what I mentioned above... one of the main reasons they attract followers is this simple concept... SEX...

"Raëlians believe that sex is a normal, natural and healthy part of life and encourages people to be true to their natural sexuality.[13] They promote healing from damaging messages from strict puritanical belief systems and social stigmas that stifle one's natural sexuality. Acceptance of masturbation, homosexuality, bisexuality, pansexuality, naturism and any legal, safe and consensual adult activity is promoted as part of a healthy and long life, and this is used to attract young converts to the religion.[14] Raelians believe that sexuality is a gift of pleasure to mankind from Elohim.[15] The Raëlian book Let's Welcome our Fathers From Space says that new advanced extraterrestrial civilizations will ultimately practice a final religion or "religion of the infinite" that involves ubiquitous practice of Sensual Meditation.[16]"

486 Nemesis6  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:35:14am

re: #484 Walter L. Newton

I'd love to see the Americans even try rooting out these guys. Religion has got its hooks deep in American politics and the evangelicals are just the worst offenders. The evangelicals are not some little group that, if harmful, could immediately be dealt with. As I said, they have lobbying power, money, all that good stuff. One might call them Haliburton on steroids. Haliburton, of course, is motivated by profit, unlike the evangelicals, who are motivated by religious zealotry.

A real simple way of looking at this: The politicized evangelical movement in the United States is a watered-down, American answer to the Taliban or the clerical rule in Iran, that's why I can never take people like Jerry Falwell seriously when they complain about "Muslim extremists" - The evangelicals want the same thing, just a Christian version! Also, a little thing to think about: Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, look at the money they made. Financially, they were small-time compared to the stuff the evangelicals have going in their pursuit of political influence.

487 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:36:01am

I'm sorry, but I've got to go. My parents just called me and I have to catch a train. BBL

488 SteveC  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:36:07am

re: #480 Dark_Falcon

Bunch of assholes. I say just ignore them.

I take it very few of them have attractive boobies?

489 SteveC  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:44:38am

Update from last night:

The nursing staff got some fluids and blood into Joshua and he was stable throughout the night. He's retaining some fluid right now; the Docs say that's ok, but they're giving him a little Lasix to make sure he doesn't retain too much.

There are pics on his Mom's blog. Fair warning: Some photos are post-heart surgery pictures, and they could be considered graphic.

490 RogueOne  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:45:57am

re: #482 Nemesis6

The meme that Bush believed god told him to invade Afghanistan is as big of a lie as Obama is a secret muslim.

This raises another question. Why was it acceptable to question the religion of Bush but out of bounds to do the same to the current president?

491 swamprat  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:49:30am

re: #349 elbruce

They all have equal protection under the law. They are all American citizens.


Show me Palestine. Show me the map where Palestine is a sovereign nation. Remember, they all live in a country where the flag is a religious symbol (Star of David over a Tallit) adn the name of the country is the other folks' religion ("Israel"). How can you be an equal citizen of such a country?


I bet a lot of the millions of regular folks trying to hold down a job and raise a family do. But nobody ever asks them.


What kind of people would you imagine actually want to live like that? How degraded do you think they are that you think they could possibly want to live on presumed subsidies bought by a regular flow of blood and self-subjugation?

You're basically saying of an entire people that the have zero self respect. That's a prety damn bigoted thing to say of anyone.

An "entire people" is not the problem. The problem is a government that is not looking out for its own people. The problem lies not with individual Palestinians. The problem is that no one knows how to break out of this quandary, and worse, no one wants to. I do not hold individual Palestinians responsible for their situation; If they have beliefs and predudices that further their plight, it is because they are subject to the worst of propaganda from all sides. People are people. And the people who work for Fatah, Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, etc, are often just looking for a paycheck. And even when this is not the case, people too often believe what they are told, because of the information available to them. The fault, as I see it, is the money that is being used in ways that don't benefit the people it is intended to help, but is rather used to continue the status quo, or is simply lost as graft. Simply accusing the Palestinians of being "bad" accomplishes nothing.

There are no easy answers here, or if there are, I certainly don't see them.

492 SteveC  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:51:51am

re: #490 RogueOne

This raises another question. Why was it acceptable to question the religion of Bush but out of bounds to do the same to the current president?

*raises hand* I know this one, teach! Because we can do it to the other side but don't you dare do it to our side!

493 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:56:00am

re: #224 JasonA

Good luck finding people that everyone would agree are fair-minded.

I wanna be the East German judge!

494 Nemesis6  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:58:09am

re: #490 RogueOne

Problem is, Bush said so. "I believe God wants everyone to be free, that's what I believe and that's part of my foreign policy" -GWB

Another one: "God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East." -GWB, to Mahmoud Abbas

Outside of the realm of quotes, he supported teaching Creationism/ID in schools, which is one of many bones he threw to the right-wing Christian nutjobs. Now, after his term is over, in an interview, he comes out saying that Genesis probably isn't supposed to be taken literally. So while he was president, he towed the evangelical line, but once out of their grasp, he turns rational on this particular issue. If they can manipulate someone as high up as the president, it's no wonder they can get creationism into classrooms time and time again, inspite of the constitution, which, for some reason, they hate so much.

495 swamprat  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 8:59:49am

re: #490 RogueOne

The meme that Bush believed god told him to invade Afghanistan is as big of a lie as Obama is a secret muslim.

This raises another question. Why was it acceptable to question the religion of Bush but out of bounds to do the same to the current president?

Bush; religious nut Evidence; vague

Palin; religious nut Evidence; vague

Obama; uh, we don't discuss his former chuch, or anything about this, no matter what

496 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:01:19am

re: #227 Conservative Moonbat

I really like the barley wine Anchor makes. Old Foghorn or something like that?

Try La Fin Du Monde sometime. A perfectly named beer, especially in the quart bottle.

497 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:03:07am

re: #486 Nemesis6

I'd love to see the Americans even try rooting out these guys. Religion has got its hooks deep in American politics and the evangelicals are just the worst offenders. The evangelicals are not some little group that, if harmful, could immediately be dealt with. As I said, they have lobbying power, money, all that good stuff. One might call them Haliburton on steroids. Haliburton, of course, is motivated by profit, unlike the evangelicals, who are motivated by religious zealotry.

A real simple way of looking at this: The politicized evangelical movement in the United States is a watered-down, American answer to the Taliban or the clerical rule in Iran, that's why I can never take people like Jerry Falwell seriously when they complain about "Muslim extremists" - The evangelicals want the same thing, just a Christian version! Also, a little thing to think about: Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, look at the money they made. Financially, they were small-time compared to the stuff the evangelicals have going in their pursuit of political influence.

Boring... evangelical influence of politics has been around forever. You make it sound like it's some recent phenomena that is taking over the country. A hundred years ago you saw the same populist rhetoric coming from the like of William Jennings Bryant. Like I said above...

Boo... they are coming to get you LOL.

498 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:03:42am

re: #490 RogueOne

The meme that Bush believed god told him to invade Afghanistan is as big of a lie as Obama is a secret muslim.

This raises another question. Why was it acceptable to question the religion of Bush but out of bounds to do the same to the current president?

Hi Bro! Gotta start packing soon...I'll think I'll make the Indy 500 every year as a tradition...Stay at Paulie's house..Hopefully we can meet up at the Track..I love Fast Friday..

Now...It really doesn't matter what newly hatched meme says about Bush.. We all lived through 911 in real time..Bush's religion played no real part in going to war against AQ...America was going to war and everybody knew it.
President Bush stood on smoldering earth with a Bull horn and said that people would pay....Anybody that says something else happened is on acid

499 Nemesis6  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:07:18am

About Obama's faith: Why does that matter? Obama is not going around supporting religious extremists and openly proclaiming his decisions as the will of God. That's why it matters with Bush, and not Obama. If Obama comes out in favor of painting the white house black and hoisting a white and black jihad flag on top, then it becomes important. Serious inquiry into Bush's religious beliefs is mostly motivated by his questionable actions and affiliations. Similar inquiry into Obama's religious beliefs is mostly a card played by the religious right because they're not happy to have a n--- we mean "socialist" president in office. One is concern, one is racism, that's the reason Obama's religion is a non-issue.

500 Stanghazi  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:08:11am

re: #496 Romantic Heretic

Try La Fin Du Monde sometime. A perfectly named beer, especially in the quart bottle.

Maudite too!

501 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:08:17am

re: #262 Reginald Perrin

Why can't you just come out and say you admire Charles for being open minded enough to let reality influence his political positions. It's late, keep it simple.

That's why I admire him. It takes guts to stand up to the craziness that now affects the American Right. Especially since their anger at being 'betrayed' is at supernova strength.

502 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:11:04am

re: #500 Stanley Sea

Maudite too!

Oh yeah.

I'm also fond of Mill Street Brewery. Their Tankhouse Ale is wonderful.

503 swamprat  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:13:22am

re: #499 Nemesis6

Why it matters is the inequality of how the media shades people. We are told how to view things, rather than believe our own lying eyes. We also choose to filter facts according to our personal predudices, rather than to objectively see the facts.

We view things as we are presented them, or as we wish to. Rarely do we view things as they are, with no predudice. All humans are subject to this, however.

504 Stanghazi  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:13:47am

re: #502 Romantic Heretic

Oh yeah.

I'm also fond of Mill Street Brewery. Their Tankhouse Ale is wonderful.

I love the artwork on Maudite.

Image: unibroue_maudite.jpg

505 cliffster  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:15:16am

re: #490 RogueOne

The meme that Bush believed god told him to invade Afghanistan is as big of a lie as Obama is a secret muslim.

This raises another question. Why was it acceptable to question the religion of Bush but out of bounds to do the same to the current president?

It is interesting to watch people who clearly see irrational attacks of Obama, then are completely blind to irrational attacks on Bush. It just doesn't make sense, this blind partisanship.

506 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:18:52am

re: #362 windsagio

Oh I don't mean it literally, sorry.

Its just a cool catchphrase I picked up from the radio. WUB knows where its from.

But yeah, wasn't even thinking of that, sorry :(

The rarity of you thinking before you type exceeds that of a full eclipse of the sun.

507 Nemesis6  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:19:16am

re: #497 Walter L. Newton

In its recent shape, it is a recent phenomenon. It picked up speed through the 80s. You should have a look at the Military Religious Freedom Foundation website. Incidents like this are symptomatic of a deeper problem within your society; religious discrimination and specifically Christian supremacism. Both of these are favorites of the evangelicals.

Oh well, I guess I'll round this up with a quote from George Bush Sr:
"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

And that's one to grow on!

508 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:19:53am

Bless his heart. He is the smallest and the youngest on the team but the boy has no fear and no qualms and--I'm beginning to think--absolutely no common sense. He will launch himself onto the back of the biggest player and not let go, making them both go down in a whirl of helmets, pads and cleats. If he can't reach the player's body, he'll dive for the feet. He will strip the cleat off his target's foot. When he has the ball, he will turn around, run backwarkds and shove his closest pursuer smack-dab in the chest, then turn around and keep on running.

At first he scared the older boys 'cause they didn't know him and had no idea what he was bringing to the field. He growls at others. He barks. His legs and arms are covered in cleat marks, scrapes and grass stains. He is 71 pounds of absolute energy.

509 RogueOne  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:19:56am

re: #494 Nemesis6

The abbas quote is a lie.

I don't have any reason to doubt the Bush religious philosophy since he was quite open about it. For some reason whenever bush mentioned god/religion the left freaked out, something you don't see them doing when Obama makes the same references.

$20 says before the election cycle we'll be seeing Obama on the news heading off to church multiple times.

510 SteveC  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:21:09am

Interview with William Novick, M.D.

There was a bypass machine — unplugged — sitting on a counter. Sitting on the floor next to the machine was a pair of heavy rubber gloves and a pair of rubber boots. Our perfusionist went to plug in the bypass machine. Simultaneously, six Uzbeks screamed, “NYET! Put on gloves! Put on boots!” So he did, and when he plugged in the machine, sparks flew.

Holy cow! Most things in an OR can kill the patient if handled incorrectly, but kill the surgeon????

511 RogueOne  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:21:17am

re: #497 Walter L. Newton

Boring... evangelical influence of politics has been around forever. You make it sound like it's some recent phenomena that is taking over the country. A hundred years ago you saw the same populist rhetoric coming from the like of William Jennings Bryant. Like I said above...

Boo... they are coming to get you LOL.

That is exactly right, this nation gets more and more secular with every administration. I don't see that as a bad thing either.

512 Bubblehead II  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:22:51am

OOPS! Looks like we (Swedish Gov) were wrong.

Swedish rape warrant for Wikileaks' Assange cancelled

The Swedish Prosecution Authority website said the chief prosecutor had come to the decision that Mr Assange was not suspected of rape but did not give any further explanation.

513 SteveC  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:22:52am

re: #508 MandyManners

Bless his heart. He is the smallest and the youngest on the team but the boy has no fear and no qualms and--I'm beginning to think--absolutely no common sense. He will launch himself onto the back of the biggest player and not let go, making them both go down in a whirl of helmets, pads and cleats. If he can't reach the player's body, he'll dive for the feet. He will strip the cleat off his target's foot. When he has the ball, he will turn around, run backwarkds and shove his closest pursuer smack-dab in the chest, then turn around and keep on running.

At first he scared the older boys 'cause they didn't know him and had no idea what he was bringing to the field. He growls at others. He barks. His legs and arms are covered in cleat marks, scrapes and grass stains. He is 71 pounds of absolute energy.

Sign him up!

514 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:23:14am

re: #507 Nemesis6

In its recent shape, it is a recent phenomenon. It picked up speed through the 80s. You should have a look at the Military Religious Freedom Foundation website. Incidents like this are symptomatic of a deeper problem within your society; religious discrimination and specifically Christian supremacism. Both of these are favorites of the evangelicals.

Oh well, I guess I'll round this up with a quote from George Bush Sr:
"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

And that's one to grow on!

You are a tool, aren't you...

"This quote can not be sourced beyond a single reporter. The reporter himself (Robert Sherman) even admits on his website ([Link: www.robsherman.com...] that there is no other record - audio, video, or from the memory of any other reporter at the press conference - that any such thing was ever actually said."

Oh... and by the way, you are talking to an atheist.

515 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:23:40am

re: #511 RogueOne

That is exactly right, this nation gets more and more secular with every administration. I don't see that as a bad thing either.

Neither do I.

516 swamprat  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:24:18am

And I don't think Obama is a religious nut. I think he went to a church that helped him politically. But I am amused by the spin that goes only in one direction.

I also don't think republicans are particularly bigoted. I think worse of them. I believe they are affecting/allowing this as a party in order to gain votes from the most despicable of sources.

And I do not think better of the current majority party because I have a functioning memory.

If you think a particular American political party has greater morals than its counterpart, I can assure you that is not the case. And if, by luck or happenstance, one party IS more moral than the other; trust me, it is only temporary.

517 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:24:51am

re: #499 Nemesis6

About Obama's faith: Why does that matter? Obama is not going around supporting religious extremists and openly proclaiming his decisions as the will of God. That's why it matters with Bush, and not Obama. If Obama comes out in favor of painting the white house black and hoisting a white and black jihad flag on top, then it becomes important. Serious inquiry into Bush's religious beliefs is mostly motivated by his questionable actions and affiliations. Similar inquiry into Obama's religious beliefs is mostly a card played by the religious right because they're not happy to have a n--- we mean "socialist" president in office. One is concern, one is racism, that's the reason Obama's religion is a non-issue.

About Obama's faith in play..I agree..But I see a flaw in your post. You see the President of the United States in the most political position in the world. Any Poly-Sci student will tell you that DC is engaged in platforms, Policies, Power, influence, Papers.. The list is huge..In fact he commands the most powerful Army in the World...Not once did you say the word politic in your post as motivation for questionable actions and affilations.. Seriously if we historical had to list a top 100 list why a POTUS acts administratively.. I figure God lists about 73 or so...( Sorry God..Andy Card had way more influence in what Bush did than you...Way more..Even though the lip service was there )

I think religion is mostly out of play except for the Wing nutters...
Obama should have never taken heat for what Rev. Wright said one time over 20 years.. God Damn America! It was taken out of context..
If Rev.Wright said that on April 15th there would have been 100 million American's saying the exact same thing! And sending off that tax check..
*wink*

518 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:25:15am

re: #509 RogueOne

The abbas quote is a lie.

I don't have any reason to doubt the Bush religious philosophy since he was quite open about it. For some reason whenever bush mentioned god/religion the left freaked out, something you don't see them doing when Obama makes the same references.

$20 says before the election cycle we'll be seeing Obama on the news heading off to church multiple times.

Nemesis6 seems very adapt at posting quotes that are either outright lies or extremely questionable at their source.

Nemesis6 is a tool, and he/she is wasting our time.

519 RogueOne  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:28:07am

re: #508 MandyManners

.... He growls at others. He barks. His legs and arms are covered in cleat marks, scrapes and grass stains. He is 71 pounds of absolute energy.

You got one good thing out of the ex-asshole, army genes.

520 swamprat  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:28:31am

re: #508 MandyManners

Bless his heart. He is the smallest and the youngest on the team but the boy has no fear and no qualms and--I'm beginning to think--absolutely no common sense. He will launch himself onto the back of the biggest player and not let go, making them both go down in a whirl of helmets, pads and cleats. If he can't reach the player's body, he'll dive for the feet. He will strip the cleat off his target's foot. When he has the ball, he will turn around, run backwarkds and shove his closest pursuer smack-dab in the chest, then turn around and keep on running.

At first he scared the older boys 'cause they didn't know him and had no idea what he was bringing to the field. He growls at others. He barks. His legs and arms are covered in cleat marks, scrapes and grass stains. He is 71 pounds of absolute energy.


Turn him towards business.
It's the fight in the dog, not the dog in the fight.

Not shrimp though, not for a few years.

521 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:30:30am

re: #517 HoosierHoops

About Obama's faith in play..I agree..But I see a flaw in your post. You see the President of the United States in the most political position in the world. Any Poly-Sci student will tell you that DC is engaged in platforms, Policies, Power, influence, Papers.. The list is huge..In fact he commands the most powerful Army in the World...Not once did you say the word politic in your post as motivation for questionable actions and affilations.. Seriously if we historical had to list a top 100 list why a POTUS acts administratively.. I figure God lists about 73 or so...( Sorry God..Andy Card had way more influence in what Bush did than you...Way more..Even though the lip service was there )

I think religion is mostly out of play except for the Wing nutters...
Obama should have never taken heat for what Rev. Wright said one time over 20 years.. God Damn America! It was taken out of context..
If Rev.Wright said that on April 15th there would have been 100 million American's saying the exact same thing! And sending off that tax check..
*wink*

Very good comment. Nemesis6 is actually in the same camp as the bigots against the mosque, or those who find a Jew behind every event, or the radical atheist's who like to overstate in influence of religion in everyday politics, in Nemesis6 case, he plays the same rhetorical games as those I mentioned, he plays them against Christians.

All in the same boat, bigots the bunch of them. Nemesis6 board brush is only making him/her look silly.

522 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:31:24am

re: #513 SteveC

Sign him up!

Oh, in triplicate! The HS coach noticed him two years ago at football camp and said he had what it takes. (That was the time another player laughed at him for missing a tackle. The Kid got up and sent him flying, onto his ass. The Kid was eight and the laugher was 13 and is now a HS tackle.)

523 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:33:18am

re: #517 HoosierHoops


I think religion is mostly out of play except for the Wing nutters...
Obama should have never taken heat for what Rev. Wright said one time over 20 years.. God Damn America! It was taken out of context..

Say what? How was that taken out of context? Sorry my friend, I respectfully disagree. What did he really mean by that? This is the original quote:

“The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing ‘God Bless America.’ No, no, no, God damn America, that’s in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.”

Are these other quotes taken out of context too?

“We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye.”

“We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America’s chickens are coming home to roost.” (Sep 2001)

“In the 21st century, white America got a wake-up call after 9/11/01. White America and the western world came to realize that people of color had not gone away, faded into the woodwork or just ‘disappeared’ as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring black concerns.” (magazine article)

“Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run!…We [in the U.S.] believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God.” (sermon)

“Barack knows what it means living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people. Hillary would never know that. Hillary ain’t never been called a n*****. Hillary has never had a people defined as a non-person.”

“Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t! Bill did us, just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty.” (sermon)

“The Israelis have illegally occupied Palestinian territories for over 40 years now. Divestment has now hit the table again as a strategy to wake the business community and wake up Americans concerning the injustice and the racism under which the Palestinians have lived because of Zionism.”

524 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:34:28am

re: #519 RogueOne

You got one good thing out of the ex-asshole, army genes.

Actually, the attitude is 100 per cent mine. So is his favorite shout, "FULL TILT BOOGIE" when he creams someone on the field.

525 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:35:05am

re: #524 MandyManners

Actually, the attitude is 100 per cent mine. So is his favorite shout, "FULL TILT BOOGIE" when he creams someone on the field.

Is that what you shout after... in bed?

526 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:35:22am

re: #520 swamprat

Turn him towards business.
It's the fight in the dog, not the dog in the fight.

Not shrimp though, not for a few years.

Whatever he does, he brings "it" to the board.

527 RogueOne  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:36:06am

re: #524 MandyManners

Actually, the attitude is 100 per cent mine. So is his favorite shout, "FULL TILT BOOGIE" when he creams someone on the field.

You bark? I'm a little aroused/

528 swamprat  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:36:06am

re: #526 MandyManners

I have no doubt whatsoever.

529 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:36:57am

Some cool old color pics of Russia

Neat pics but the Russians are some glum folks. Not a single smile.

530 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:37:32am

re: #525 Walter L. Newton

Is that what you shout after... in bed?

LOL! No, that's my attitude about many things--to go aggressively and single-mindedly after a goal.

531 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:37:50am

I never thought the day would come when a so-called intellectual could get up on LGF and proclaim Jimmy-Carter talking points about Israeli "apartheid" whilst a web-jester barked encouragement against the "bastards" who disagree.

I was wrong.

532 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:38:04am

re: #527 RogueOne

You bark? I'm a little aroused/

I promise not to pee on your fire-hydrant.

533 RogueOne  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:39:11am

re: #529 Killgore Trout

Some cool old color pics of Russia

Neat pics but the Russians are some glum folks. Not a single smile.

Nice pics. They didn't have a whole lot to smile about, still don't.

534 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:39:14am

re: #508 MandyManners

Bless his heart. He is the smallest and the youngest on the team but the boy has no fear and no qualms and--I'm beginning to think--absolutely no common sense. He will launch himself onto the back of the biggest player and not let go, making them both go down in a whirl of helmets, pads and cleats. If he can't reach the player's body, he'll dive for the feet. He will strip the cleat off his target's foot. When he has the ball, he will turn around, run backwarkds and shove his closest pursuer smack-dab in the chest, then turn around and keep on running.

At first he scared the older boys 'cause they didn't know him and had no idea what he was bringing to the field. He growls at others. He barks. His legs and arms are covered in cleat marks, scrapes and grass stains. He is 71 pounds of absolute energy.

Now Mother I'm going to pass you advice from experience...I think the Kid has a very special mother..You both are very lucky...
Your ability to focus your son's energy is the key here..He is showing signs of bad sportsmanship on the field..Your teaching of controlling his energy and directing his passion and teaching him good sportsmanship will determine what kind of man he becomes someday...Will he show signs of the rage of his father or the grace of a respected well rounded man?
It is you..His Mother that will guide and influence your beautiful Boy.
We raised 3 boys so that was really fun writing Mandy..
Regards

535 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:39:16am

re: #528 swamprat

I have no doubt whatsoever.

He is the sorest loser I've ever seen.

536 RogueOne  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:42:56am

re: #529 Killgore Trout

Some cool old color pics of Russia

Neat pics but the Russians are some glum folks. Not a single smile.

In the comments, more pics:

[Link: www.prokudin-gorsky.ru...]

537 jaunte  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:42:59am

re: #529 Killgore Trout

Some cool old color pics of Russia

Neat pics but the Russians are some glum folks. Not a single smile.

Beautiful light in that third shot; reminds me of a Vermeer. Image: vermeer.jpg

538 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:44:28am

re: #534 HoosierHoops

Now Mother I'm going to pass you advice from experience...I think the Kid has a very special mother..You both are very lucky...
Your ability to focus your son's energy is the key here..He is showing signs of bad sportsmanship on the field..Your teaching of controlling his energy and directing his passion and teaching him good sportsmanship will determine what kind of man he becomes someday...Will he show signs of the rage of his father or the grace of a respected well rounded man?
It is you..His Mother that will guide and influence your beautiful Boy.
We raised 3 boys so that was really fun writing Mandy..
Regards

The coach's only issue with him is his sense of dejection if he doesn't make a tackle/run. He hangs his head in shame. So, the rest is fine with me. We're all born pure Id, and it's the parents'/social organization's job to channel the instincts. (No, I'm not saying that it takes a village. I'm saying that social groups shape a youngster.)

He has no issues with the rage of his father 'cause he's never been around him.

539 McSpiff  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:47:26am

re: #531 Cato the Elder

I never thought the day would come when a so-called intellectual could get up on LGF and proclaim Jimmy-Carter talking points about Israeli "apartheid" whilst a web-jester barked encouragement against the "bastards" who disagree.

I was wrong.

I'm just catching the tail end of this thread...links?

540 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:48:41am

re: #539 McSpiff

I'm just catching the tail end of this thread...links?

Read the comments of "elbruce" on the previous thread and this one.

541 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:49:37am

Well... since it's slow, I think I will ramble about a few different topics, before I go take a nap before works.

Hmmm... let's see. Well, it appears that my schedule at work is back to normal after 3 weeks. For whatever normal is worth when you are low man on the seniority pole as a part time cashier in a supermarket. But anyway, I'm not helping out in general merchandise again, thank goodness, I don't want over night shifts, and I told them to find some other help for GM. So, all cashiering shifts this week, Mon-Tue-Thr off, that's good. Gives me time to work on the jewelry.

The Paris trip I saved up for with the girlfriend and I for this coming Jan. 2011 will be a bit different. This will be the first time back to Paris where I am not drinking OR SMOKING. Last time, Jan 2007, I had put down the booze, but I was still smoking, and I purposely overindulged in a lot of espresso and Galloise brand cigarettes, a nasty French cigarette, really good if you like a real raw heavy tobacco taste like I do. (Side note, the French company that made them sold out to a Spanish company a few years ago.) Well, this time I will have neither of those two vices to indulge in... maybe I'll just overdose on strong coffee.

It's getting cooler already up here. Oh, we'll have warm, even hot days up through Oct., but you can feel the changes starting to autumn already, the breezes, the "smell", the general airiness, nights in the 50's or high 40's... heck, I saw snow this time last year.

Ramble, ramble, ramble...

542 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:50:19am

re: #536 RogueOne

In the comments, more pics:

[Link: www.prokudin-gorsky.ru...]

Cool! Thanks.

543 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:53:46am

Up with Dope, Down with Hope!

544 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:54:11am

Jamie brought huge tomatoes stuffed with itty-bityy pasta, shredded basil leaves and some sort of olive-based sauce. I just ate two she left behind so I'm fuller than a tick on a baying hound. The Kid's at the pool. It's quiet. Nap time.

545 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:54:50am

re: #540 Cato the Elder

Read the comments of "elbruce" on the previous thread and this one.

Elbruce is a member of HuffPo. What a surprise!

546 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:57:09am

re: #544 MandyManners

Jamie brought huge tomatoes stuffed with itty-bityy pasta, shredded basil leaves and some sort of olive-based sauce. I just ate two she left behind so I'm fuller than a tick on a baying hound. The Kid's at the pool. It's quiet. Nap time.

I have a lot of tomatoes to pick today.

547 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:58:21am

re: #544 MandyManners

Jamie brought huge tomatoes stuffed with itty-bityy pasta, shredded basil leaves and some sort of olive-based sauce. I just ate two she left behind so I'm fuller than a tick on a baying hound. The Kid's at the pool. It's quiet. Nap time.

And you convinced me too... nap time... I have an late afternoon/evening 5 hour shift later, and then stop at the gym to walk a few miles... a nap now...

By Mandy, HH, Rogue and all...

548 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:58:59am

re: #198 elbruce

As an aside, I was F5'ing ThinkProgress around the exact time that the LGF webmaster dude decided to come to us to announce his big switch from neocon to moderate. Which by the way, I must say counts as one of the most significant ideological changeovers I can think of in 20th/21st C. politics at any level. I actually remember seeing those posts where he was practically begging us "progressives" to come check him out...

It's taken me a few years to take him seriously, but since I've heard from around the way that LGF has become a better (more even) mix of lib/con discussion, I'm deciding to look into it now. Looks pretty lively so far.

Smart people here, from all angles. I hope I can keep up.

I don't know what you're talking about. I never "begged" anyone at Think Progress for anything.

549 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:01:00am

re: #260 elbruce

Educate me. The guy who went from saying that the media was lying because their report differed from the Army's press releases, then came to ThinkProgress to tell everyone who would listen that he had been wrong about everything and that LGF was going to now serve a completely different purpose than it ever had before - how is this not the ultimate "Horatio Alger" story where somebody flips the switch? I can only hope that future generations of screenwriters are reading our discussion about Charles right now.

I never "came to Think Progress." What the hell are you talking about?

And I never once said anything like "the media is lying because their reports differ from the Army's press releases."

Where are you getting this false information from?

550 Idle Drifter  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:02:41am

This talk of food has me thinking grilling porterhouse steaks and portabella mushrooms with the mushrooms getting topped with a lightly cooked tomato, provolone cheese, and basil seasoning. Throwing in some corn on the cob and spicy pinto beans.

551 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:03:41am

re: #550 Idle Drifter

This talk of food has me thinking grilling porterhouse steaks and portabella mushrooms with the mushrooms getting topped with a lightly cooked tomato, provolone cheese, and basil seasoning. Throwing in some corn on the cob and spicy pinto beans.

As long as you don't ruin the whole thing with roasted red peppers, I'm there!

552 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:04:39am

re: #275 elbruce

Oh trust me, back in the day he was one of the biggest "LIBERALS DIE!" bastards to ever infest Right Blogistan.

And that is absolutely pure bullshit. I've never written anything like that.

553 swamprat  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:07:28am

re: #552 Charles

And that is absolutely pure bullshit. I've never written anything like that.

"Liberals Lie!" would be a lot more accurate. And look, this one still does!

554 Idle Drifter  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:09:08am

re: #551 Cato the Elder

Hey, with me food is by section with the mixing part up to each person. Though I do like how portabella mushrooms absorb steak juices.

555 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:09:32am

re: #529 Killgore Trout

Some cool old color pics of Russia

Neat pics but the Russians are some glum folks. Not a single smile.

Automatically "smiling" for the camera was a twentieth-century American innovation.

It makes many people look insane.

556 swamprat  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:09:33am

A lying liberal troll. It makes feel young again.

557 Nemesis6  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:11:45am

re: #521 Walter L. Newton

Bush's actions still speak volumes about the people who vote for him and the people whose agenda he furthers, regardless of me falling for a false quote. You still haven't addressed what I said about him supporting Creationism in schools. But I see you're starting to get nasty, so I'll reiterate my original point once more and leave it at that: The United States has two enemies: The American Taliban, and the Taliban. You can tell yourself that it's not a problem, but this stuff will continue, courtesy of the religious right, if left unchecked.

I'm still amazed at the naivety / ignorance your post #484 shows, but hey, I'm a conspiracy theorist, right? Insinuating that the religious right has power makes that a logical accusation I guess.

558 RogueOne  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:11:52am

Anyone read Carlos Miller on a regular basis? He was on HDNet this last week. Here is a story about Denver since we were just talking about it thursday or friday:

Is Denver turning into a police state?
[Link: carlosmiller.com...]


It sometimes gets hard to keep up with all the police abuse caught on camera sweeping the country these days, especially because I’ve been busy with loads of other projects, so I’ll leave you with the above two videos involving Denver police that are making the rounds throughout the country.

The first video was shot by a surveillance camera outside the Denver Police Department shows a cop beating a 23-year-old man talking on a cell phone for no apparent reason.
.....
The second video shows a 32-year-old man beaten by two Denver police officers after he was taking photos of a traffic investigation.

559 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:12:21am

re: #555 Cato the Elder


Automatically "smiling" for the camera was a twentieth-century American innovation.


Huh. I never thought of that before.

560 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:14:05am

re: #549 Charles

I never "came to Think Progress." What the hell are you talking about?

It seems like elbruce is an intellectual who never plays games according to Reginald Perrin. Is there an intellectual on here who can translate elbruces's bullshit?

561 RogueOne  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:14:37am

re: #542 Killgore Trout

Cool! Thanks.

I was reading the comments trying to find out about the color process. I found a link that supposedly describes it but the link didn't work. I seem to remember reading something awhile ago about taking old photo plates and turning them into color but I don't remember the context.

562 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:19:15am

re: #541 Walter L. Newton

Paris sounds fun..I'll bet they have real Cuban Cigars there! Dang it!

563 webevintage  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:19:44am

re: #558 RogueOne

Anyone read Carlos Miller on a regular basis? He was on HDNet this last week. Here is a story about Denver since we were just talking about it thursday or friday:

Is Denver turning into a police state?
[Link: carlosmiller.com...]

I was reading a story a few weeks ago about the movement of police departments to charge folks who video tape the police doing stuff.
I need to find that....

564 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:19:58am

re: #559 Killgore Trout

Huh. I never thought of that before.

It was a major cultural shift, about which I recall reading at least one study. Up until around the middle of the last century, people viewed being photographed as a kind of modern portrait-sit. There are of course earlier candid shots of people smiling, but if you asked someone to pose for the camera, the default mode was to show that you were a serious person. There are, you will notice, exactly zero paintings of prominent people (kings, counselors, bishops, merchants) from older days showing a full-on, tooth-baring grin. Imagine Henry VIII doing that!

Once people started taking "snapshots" of their family picnics, etc., it became de rigueur to show how "happy" you were. Civilization's decline can be dated from that time.

So those Russians are not being glum, they are sitting for formal portraits.

565 Idle Drifter  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:20:30am

re: #560 NJDhockeyfan

Sorry, Dude, but the flux capacitor on my logic controller just blew up and took out my childhood memories on my brain housing group. It'll take me a good afternoon on auxiliary power to fix it and reboot. All this from reading a few post from elbruce.

566 webevintage  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:23:29am

re: #563 webevintage

I was reading a story a few weeks ago about the movement of police departments to charge folks who video tape the police doing stuff.
I need to find that...

Here:
[Link: www.time.com...]

567 reine.de.tout  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:25:20am

re: #529 Killgore Trout

Some cool old color pics of Russia

Neat pics but the Russians are some glum folks. Not a single smile.

Cool photos, of what looks to be a very hard life.
The reason for the lack of smiles, perhaps?

568 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:27:03am

LA Times picks the top 50 guitarists...

1. Jimi Hendrix
2. Jimmy Page
3. Eric Clapton
4. Duane Allman
5. Stevie Ray Vaughan
6. Richard Thompson
7. Chet Atkins
8. Eddie Van Halen
9. Robert Fripp
10. David Gilmour
11. Jeff Beck
12. Frank Zappa
13. Merle Travis
14. Carlos Santana
15. Jack White
16. Randy Rhoads
17. Paco de Lucía
18. George Harrison
19. Johnny Marr
20. Les Paul
21. Andrés Segovia
22. Django Reinhardt
23. Leo Kottke
24. The Edge
25. Angus Young
26. Ritchie Blackmore
27. Wes Montgomery
28. Yngwie Malmsteen
29. John McLaughlin
30. Eddie Hazel
31. B.B. King
32. Joe Pass
33. Chuck Berry
34. Roy Clark
35. Buddy Guy
36. Tom Morello
37. Doc Watson
38. Keith Richards
39. Pete Townshend
40. Julian Bream
41. Dick Dale
42. Charlie Christian
43. Christopher Parkening
44. Albert King
45. Mike Bloomfield
46. Ry Cooder
47. John Fahey
48. Sharon Isbin
49. Paco Peña
50. T-Bone Walker

569 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:27:20am

BarlowGirl vs. Ghadaffi's girl guard

Catfight of the millenium

Fitzz Rowwww

Get yr. tix early

570 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:27:27am

re: #563 webevintage

I was reading a story a few weeks ago about the movement of police departments to charge folks who video tape the police doing stuff.
I need to find that...

This will eventually be tested in court.

With nearly everyone walking around carrying a phone equipped with a camera or camera-video capacity, and given that police work in public places is a public event, I am betting that eventually the police will lose the right to say "you can't record this".

Meanwhile, when they're acting like pigs, any attempt to document their porcine behavior will be subject to further porcine behavior.

571 TedStriker  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:29:35am

re: #568 NJDhockeyfan

They have Chet Atkins, but not Carl Perkins....lame.

Agree with most of the list, though.

572 What, me worry?  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:29:54am

re: #560 NJDhockeyfan

Is there an intellectual on here who can translate elbruces's bullshit?

I'll give it a whirl.

Elbruce is a liar at worst and misinformed at best. He calls Israel an apartheid state apparently because Arabs living within its boundaries aren't actually citizens of the country.

Over 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab with equal rights under Israeli law, including representation within the Israeli government.

Elbruce seems to be ignorant, however, of the Arab refugees living in Arab countries such as Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt who are not given citizen status and live in far worse conditions than their Arab brethren. They are supported by the UN.


Current Humanitarian Situation
Refugees International has observed extreme vulnerabilities among the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi refugees living in Syria, Jordan, and other parts of the region, as well as the millions of internally displaced persons within Iraq. Most refugees have not been granted legal status and thus live in limbo, often without access to basic services and work opportunities. Many persons displaced within the country have no access to assistance, basic levels of protection, or any hope of return to their original homes.

[Link: www.unrwa.org...]
But despite all the preparedness, Grandi was clearly shocked as to what awaited him in Jordan when he made his virgin tour of the region as Commissioner-General of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency. Grandi visited some of 200 families living just outside the Baqa'a refugee camp in Jordan. Grandi called their situation "appalling."

573 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:30:33am

re: #568 NJDhockeyfan

One could always argue, but the list makes one prefer to fire up the old phonograph, or what have you...

574 swamprat  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:30:50am

re: #557 Nemesis6 I'm totally convinced. I am not voting for him!
Christianity is what is wrong with America; that is why atheist countries such as russia and cuba are so much better.

575 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:30:50am

re: #571 talon_262

They have Chet Atkins, but not Carl Perkins...lame.

Agree with most of the list, though.

Slash is missing too.

576 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:31:11am

LA times very ignorant

577 RogueOne  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:32:02am

re: #570 Cato the Elder

This will eventually be tested in court.

With nearly everyone walking around carrying a phone equipped with a camera or camera-video capacity, and given that police work in public places is a public event, I am betting that eventually the police will lose the right to say "you can't record this".

Meanwhile, when they're acting like pigs, any attempt to document their porcine behavior will be subject to further porcine behavior.

You would hope. I think Md and Ill are the only 2 states where it's illegal. Ill just passed a law this summer making sure it's illegal. The ACLU just filed a suit:

Illinois ACLU To Challege State Wiretapping Law
[Link: www.theagitator.com...]


I’ve written a couple pieces now about how the Illinois wiretapping law is the toughest in the country, and has been used to charge people who record on-duty police officers with a felony punishable by 4 to 15 years in prison (for each recording). This week, the Illinois ACLU filed a challenge to the law.

578 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:33:25am

re: #575 NJDhockeyfan

Slash is missing too.

Joe Satriani? The only guitarist to ever surf with the Aliens?

579 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:34:31am

re: #572 marjoriemoon

Excellent! They apparently have some pretty dumb intellectuals over at HuffPo. Elbruce might learn something over here if he lasts long enough.

580 What, me worry?  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:34:46am

And I forgot this article about Lebanon refugees. JUST LAST WEEKthings have started to change for them.

BEIRUT (AP) - Lebanon on Tuesday granted the country's 400,000 Palestinian refugees the right to work in the same professions as other foreigners, lifting a decades-old ban that has relegated the refugees to only the most menial jobs.

The bill was among the most serious efforts yet by Lebanon to transform its policies towards the refugees, although Palestinian leaders in Lebanon and human rights workers say it is only a first step with significant stumbling blocks remaining.

The Palestinians living in Lebanon are isolated from the rest of the country in their camps to a higher degree than anywhere else in the Arab world.

"I was born in Lebanon and I have never known Palestine," said Ahmed Mehdawi, 45, a taxi driver who lives in the Ein Al Hilweh refugee camp, which is notorious for its lawlessness. "What we want is to live like Lebanese. We are human beings and we need civil rights."

So he can still his apartheid up his wazoo.

581 What, me worry?  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:35:42am

re: #579 NJDhockeyfan

Excellent! They apparently have some pretty dumb intellectuals over at HuffPo. Elbruce might learn something over here if he lasts long enough.

Well I have an account at Huffpo. All of maybe 3 posts to defend Israel, heh.

582 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:35:55am

Alirio Diaz should be on the guitarist list also.

583 RogueOne  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:36:10am

re: #568 NJDhockeyfan

No R Rhoades or Zakk Wylde?

584 TedStriker  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:37:23am

re: #583 RogueOne

No R Rhoades or Zakk Wylde?


[Video]

Randy Rhoades is #16 on the list...Zakk's not on it

585 cliffster  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:37:38am

re: #568 NJDhockeyfan

A "who's in the top 50" discussion is likely to be more contentious than the worst of the HCR debates..

586 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:38:13am
587 reine.de.tout  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:39:21am
588 swamprat  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:39:25am

re: #557 Nemesis6

Maybe judging people by their religous beliefs(or lack thereof)... maybe judging people in this is a form of bigotry.

Maybe we need to be more tolerant of what people believe, even if they believe differently than we do.
Maybe this should include Christians, atheists, Jews and even Muslims.
Maybe it should include many more.

What I am saying is that maybe you are a bigot.

589 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:39:47am

re: #577 RogueOne

You would hope. I think Md and Ill are the only 2 states where it's illegal. Ill just passed a law this summer making sure it's illegal. The ACLU just filed a suit:

Illinois ACLU To Challege State Wiretapping Law
[Link: www.theagitator.com...]

Really? Maryland?

Thanks for the warning. The next time the SWAT team bursts into a private home near me and shoots the family dogs, I'll be sure not to try and capture it on my iPhone.

590 RogueOne  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:40:28am

re: #584 talon_262

Randy Rhoades is #16 on the list...Zakk's not on it

I blame bad eyes. They also forgot this girl, Desiree Bassett, 15 at the time of the video:

She looks happy enough to explode.

591 Racer X  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:41:25am

re: #572 marjoriemoon

So Palestinians are treated far worse in Arab countries than they are in Israel?

Who knew?

592 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:42:40am

re: #568 NJDhockeyfan

And John Fahey at 47? No way...John always was way out there playing strange open chord old time stuff...I consider a top 50 guitarist of players that also influenced the art of playing.. Like a Clapton.. But Fehey? no way..I'll bet the top 1000 guitarists in the world have never played one single lick from him..

593 TedStriker  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:42:50am

re: #578 HoosierHoops

Joe Satriani? The only guitarist to ever surf with the Aliens?

For Satriani not to be on the list is unforgivable...re: #590 RogueOne

She's a cutie...and handling that axe like a god up there on stage with Hagar.

594 RogueOne  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:45:47am

re: #593 talon_262

For Satriani not to be on the list is unforgivable...re: #590 RogueOne

She's a cutie...and handling that axe like a god up there on stage with Hagar.

I can't remember where I originally saw that but I was amazed. I went through a bunch of her videos, she's damn good. I was also impressed with the way her parents have seemed to handle her. I noticed they had her dressed appropriately and not like a little mtv skank.

595 reine.de.tout  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:46:09am

re: #589 Cato the Elder

Really? Maryland?

Thanks for the warning. The next time the SWAT team bursts into a private home near me and shoots the family dogs, I'll be sure not to try and capture it on my iPhone.

And I'm thinking you'll probably examine your conscience and capture it anyhow.

596 Cato the Elder  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:47:59am

Do Barlow girls carry Barlow knives?

597 Nemesis6  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:48:14am

re: #574 swamprat

I know you's trollin', but I'll bite - On the Human Development Index, look at the type of countries that are ahead of the United States : Those evil Atheist ones.

598 What, me worry?  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:48:15am

re: #591 Racer X

So Palestinians are treated far worse in Arab countries than they are in Israel?

Who knew?

hehe I think someone is reading too many books by Jimmy Carter.

599 RadicalModerate  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:49:17am

re: #574 swamprat

I'm totally convinced. I am not voting for him!
Christianity is what is wrong with America; that is why atheist countries such as russia and cuba are so much better.

So, your contention is that the reason those countries were totalitarian regimes is due to atheism?

By the way, Cuba still is totalitarian, to be sure - however the millions of Catholics and 800,000-odd Protestants who worship there might have a difference of opinion on the lack or religion currently.

As for Nemesis6's original contention, I have to say that to a great extent that I agree with the assessment. Fundamentalist Christians in my opinion are a much greater risk to our nation than radical Islam ever will have. The reason for this is, that there is absolutely ZERO chance for Sharia Law being enacted in the US under a Muslim banner. As for the equivalent happening with Dominionist Christians? It's already happening, at the state and in some instances at the national level. I personally am much more worried about the Family Research Council's theocrats being appointed to positions of power (like I've already seen here in Texas) than I am about possible "terror babies".

600 Nemesis6  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:50:37am

re: #588 swamprat

Not in politics, that's all I'm saying.

601 RogueOne  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:56:41am

re: #589 Cato the Elder

Really? Maryland?

Thanks for the warning. The next time the SWAT team bursts into a private home near me and shoots the family dogs, I'll be sure not to try and capture it on my iPhone.

I double-checked. It's Massachusetts not maryland but being arrested for photographing police in MD is a pretty common occurrence.

602 prairiefire  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 10:57:06am

re: #586 Ojoe

Towercam is back up after a week or so fritz hiatus.

Thanks! It looks like it might be a clear night.

603 swamprat  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 11:03:56am

re: #600 Nemesis6

Not in politics, that's all I'm saying.

If you are pushing the old chestnut that Bush invaded Afghanistan because he was Christian, I think you are certifiably insane. If you are simply pushing for a separation of church and state, you are a bit strident, but that is ok. Bush is no longer running, so people don't vote for him now.
Yelling about bush because he was a christian is moronic and bigoted, but you are within your rights to do so.

As to the financial success or failure of a nation based on its beliefs, It is what it is. Faith should not be dependant on results. That is the point, no?

604 sagehen  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 11:06:40am

re: #529 Killgore Trout

Some cool old color pics of Russia

Neat pics but the Russians are some glum folks. Not a single smile.

The lack of smiles is because film speed/shutter speed back then was way slow. Americans didn't smile in photos that long ago either.

Smiley photos didn't start happening until the mid-1900's.

605 spikester  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 11:08:22am

re: #552 Charles

“back in the day”
do you mean back in the day when you used to have to follow this community waiting for charles to open registration? (that bugged me when I first started lizard watching; then I saw the wisdom of it. One could actually get to know the people you would be talking to before you tried to get them to look at things from another perspective; cold calls are a bitch) I was surprised to see that now anyone can become a lizard with no more investment than a few strokes of the keyboard, not much skin in the game. I notice that you are a hatchling. Your ‘back in the’ day must be from a prior account or maybe digging. If it’s digging then remember the internet is like scripture, you can make it read anyway you want it to read. Sometimes you have to wade through a lot of shit to get to that one pearl that makes it worth it (like listening to Neal Young) hang in there. It might be worth it.

606 spikester  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 11:09:56am

sorry
should have gone to
elbruce

607 swamprat  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 11:17:29am

re: #599 RadicalModerate

No. My point is that Nemesis6's yelling about Bush's Christianity and trying to tie it to our invasion of Afghanistan was less than sensible.


He can promote his private version of history, but that doesn't make it real.

Bush apparently didn't become a Christian until 19 hijackers attacked our country. I guess he was a Buddhist up till then.

If everything, you don't like, happens because you think everyone should believe and act in the way you think they should; that makes you

normal.

608 Nemesis6  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 11:41:59am

re: #607 swamprat

My point was: Bush made a big, big deal out of talking about God and God's role in the war(s). Excluding the fake quote I fell for, he's said some pretty messed up things, like "I believe God wants everyone to be free, that's what I believe and that's part of my foreign policy". It's no secret that Bush was loved by the religious right, and with good reason - He was on the same page as them on issues like homosexuals are bad, gay marriage being bad, abortion being bad, religion being in science class, and global warming not being real(he flip-flopped on this one).

So whether he was a puppet of them, or a fundamentalist himself, he's a perfect example of what's wrong with the religious right.

And that's just Bush in particular. RadicalModerate mentioned the Family Research Council, which is a great example. Read up on them on Wikipedia, and remember to check the Sister Organizations category, because they're not the only ones out there doing lobbying for the religious right.

609 RadicalModerate  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 12:00:51pm

re: #607 swamprat

No. My point is that Nemesis6's yelling about Bush's Christianity and trying to tie it to our invasion of Afghanistan was less than sensible.

He can promote his private version of history, but that doesn't make it real.

Bush apparently didn't become a Christian until 19 hijackers attacked our country. I guess he was a Buddhist up till then.

If everything, you don't like, happens because you think everyone should believe and act in the way you think they should; that makes you

normal.

As a Texas resident, I can say definitively that George W. Bush was a Fundamentalist Christian well before the 9/11 terrorist attacks - I saw it when he was Governor of Texas, with his appointments of theocrats to state education and judicial positions. It was a primary reason that I was didn't vote for him in 2000 or 2004.

610 swamprat  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 12:01:50pm

re: #608 Nemesis6

"I believe God wants everyone to be free, that's what I believe and that's part of my foreign policy".

You know, Carter actually did this with his refusal to deal with countries that violated human rights. I certainly do not view this as a bad thing. It was perhaps the best thing Carter did. I was proud of him for it, and proud of America.

The republicans decried it for being "naive".

Notice Carter did not actually mention god in this policy. He simply promoted a principle (that happens to be in the bible) and stuck to it.

Personally, I am for people being free.

If you think Bush's belief in god had to do with him invading 2 countries, you can be mad if you want. Maybe he would have invaded even if he had been a non-believer. If you think he was using the "god agrees with me"-card , I can see that side.
But.
A couple of things here.
1. If you dislike a thing only when it is invoked with god; maybe it is not the "thing" you dislike, but rather the "invoking".

2. Bush is no more.

611 swamprat  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 12:02:46pm

re: #609 RadicalModerate

That is fine and as it should be.

612 elbruce  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 3:11:50pm

re: #552 Charles

And that is absolutely pure bullshit. I've never written anything like that.

I'm going to completely walk that back and apologize. Sorry, that was way out of line.

The most I could say was that the most awareness I (and I think many people) had of this site was as part of the hard-right-wing blogosphere prior to about... 2007, I think? That's what I was trying to get at in an extremely clumsy and stupid way.

613 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 21, 2010 3:13:58pm

re: #612 elbruce

Charles has never been "hard-right", nor has LGF. We had lots of conservatives, but we've never been hard-right.


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Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
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The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ...
Cheechako
Yesterday
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Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
2 weeks ago
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