Video: Anti-Mosque Mob Turns On Black Union Carpenter

WingnutsAugust 2010 • Views: 7,090

Wow. This is where we’re going, folks. Pamela Geller should be proud of her work.

A man walks through the crowd at the Ground Zero protest and is mistaken as a Muslim. The crowd turns on him and confronts him. The man in the blue hard hat calls him a coward and tries to fight him. The tall man who I think was one of the organizers tried to get between the two men. Later I caught up with the man who’s name is Kenny. He is a Union carpenter who works at Ground Zero. We discussed what a scary moment that was for him. I told him that I hoped it did not ruin his day.

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904 comments

ihateronpaul Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:50:40pm

Only an anti-mosque fanatic would be insane enough to think "looking muslim" and being near ground zero counts as provocation - fighting words for their insane minds.

theheat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:51:07pm

Classic case of mob mentality. This is why majority voting is horseshit when it trumps the rights of the individual. I give you The Majority. Not pretty.

Obdicut Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:53:35pm

What a bunch of freaks.

That guy kept his cool pretty damn well.

windsagio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:54:23pm

re: #3 Obdicut

I LOVE him cussing them out.

"All you dumb motherfuckers don't even know my opinion on shit!"

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:55:23pm

Yep. In a nutshell. Thank you Romney, Reid, Dean, etc. for providing cover for these fucking assholes.

McSpiff Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:55:49pm

I wrote about 3 different replies to this, but fuck it. These dumbass bigots aren't even worth it. Its blatantly obvious now to anyone with a clue. If you support these creeps, you're a bigot. No, I won't debate this.

windsagio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:56:06pm

Actually, watching further in... that's an incredibly ugly and depressing clip.

Ten million kinds of 'We have met the enemy, and he is us.'

Killgore Trout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:56:17pm

Another angle....
No Mosque near Ground Zero

Youtube Video

Obdicut Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:56:53pm

re: #5 Jeff In Ohio

Thank you, every single member of the GOP for pandering to the mob.

I cannot fucking believe I considered voting for McCain.

And Olympia Snowe! I can't fucking believe that.

Disgraceful shit.

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:57:53pm

re: #8 Killgore Trout

Another angle...
No Mosque near Ground Zero

[Video]

Reminds me of the 60s.

deadletterboy Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:58:02pm

That got really close to dangerous.
What the hell is wrong with these people?

windsagio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:59:00pm

What's with the cop shooing him off near the end btw?

jaunte Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:59:06pm

I wonder how many of this mob have little pocket copies of the Constitution.

Here's how a shallow thinker selling anti-mosque t-shirts online (I won't link) reasons it out:

No one is arguing about Religious Freedom, but is Ground Zero the right place to build a Mosque? Don’t allow Radical Islam to have a victory flag overlooking the site where the twin towers fell

McSpiff Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:59:19pm

Racist mobs nearly attacking a lone black man? Nope, this doesn't sound like anything i've ever heard of historically.

theheat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:59:33pm

re: #11 deadletterboy

You feed a crowd red meat (since 2008) and it creates a feeding frenzy. You're witnessing the law of nature in action.

deadletterboy Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:59:34pm

re: #12 windsagio

I think they're trying to keep the rallies as separate as possible, with a walkway in between?

Obdicut Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:59:38pm

re: #11 deadletterboy

I'm really goddamn worried that we're close to actual, real lynchings.

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:59:51pm

re: #9 Obdicut

It is disgraceful and truly unAmerican. My wife just got back from 3 weeks working on a water project in small towns in Kenya and she's asking me "What the hell is wrong with these people?"

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:59:53pm

I can't understand a single word in that entire audio track, including whatever it is they're chanting.

But I detest any crowd of humans on the street that thinks it's got a collective mind.

Obdicut Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:00:12pm

re: #12 windsagio

What's with the cop shooing him off near the end btw?

Cops want, above all, to prevent fights from breaking out. They're looking out for him.

windsagio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:00:13pm

re: #14 McSpiff

The guy about halfway through is complaining about how they're going to be painting the mob as racist, and THERE YOU GO!

(Leaving aside Mr. Dixie)

deadletterboy Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:00:31pm

re: #17 Obdicut

I almost said it looked like a lynch mob, but then was like "no, that language is too extreme." But I do agree with you. That is what that shit looks like.

CuriousLurker Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:00:51pm

A bunch of jack@asses proudly braying their ignorance for all the world to see. Ugh.

windsagio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:01:12pm

re: #19 Cato the Elder

Being able to understand it makes it worse. The Fuck in the hard hat calling him a coward and getting in his face is a particular low point.

Randall Gross Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:01:27pm

These mosque protesters are some real dumbass sunsabitches ... if you are a politician and value your future you will keep them at a very extreme distance. Of course if you are a dumbass sunsabitch yourself like most of the tea party tagalong politicians, then there's already no help for you.

Obdicut Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:01:37pm

re: #23 CuriousLurker

Hey, you're in NYC, right?

Randall Gross Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:02:40pm

re: #12 windsagio

What's with the cop shooing him off near the end btw?

Cops will do that. He can't shoo off the crowd, but he can move the one guy who's in greatest danger. It might not seem right, but he's got safety first at the forefront of his mind.

theheat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:02:46pm

re: #25 Thanos

Are you kidding? You can imagine the political tweets later today, affirming Real Americans™ "made a stand." This is the stuff they jerk off to.

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:02:53pm

If these people represent the best of America, than Jeremiah Wright was right.

CuriousLurker Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:03:04pm

re: #26 Obdicut

Hey, you're in NYC, right?

Used to be. I'm in Jersey now.

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:03:14pm

re: #6 McSpiff

I wrote about 3 different replies to this, but fuck it. These dumbass bigots aren't even worth it. Its blatantly obvious now to anyone with a clue. If you support these creeps, you're a bigot. No, I won't debate this.

No debate from me.
That was one ugly ugly incident.
I'm just speechless.
This bunch isn't even making any sort of small attempt to hide their bigotry.

Columnists can write whatever they want, in all the flowery language they can muster, to defend these people - but this shows exactly where this bunch stands.

windsagio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:03:39pm

re: #29 Cato the Elder

If these people represent the best of America, than Jeremiah Wright was right.

I think this is actually a perfect representation of what his point was, you're absolutely right.

And its scary.

windsagio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:04:20pm

I'm hoping that at least this clip is the big thing that hits the news cycle out of the crap today.

Obdicut Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:05:15pm

re: #30 CuriousLurker

Used to be. I'm in Jersey now.

Okay. Stay safe. I hope things don't get much worse than this.

Randall Gross Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:05:17pm

Smart money sez the blue hardhat is a stage prop worn only for the demo....

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:06:20pm

re: #35 Thanos

Smart money sez the blue hardhat is a stage prop worn only for the demo...

He's in the UN.

(United Nutjobs)

William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:06:29pm

re: #13 jaunte

I wonder how many of this mob have little pocket copies of the Constitution.

Here's how a shallow thinker selling anti-mosque t-shirts online (I won't link) reasons it out:

I carry a copy of the Constitution that I got from the Cato institute. It's interesting how many times the words on paper aren't the words people think are there. I swear sometimes its as bad as when I get Shakespeare quoted to me as coming from the bible.

But what do I know? I'm just an Army vet Democratic Socialist...

windsagio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:06:56pm

re: #35 Thanos

Like the other guys' firefighter shirt, yup.

deadletterboy Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:07:00pm

re: #35 Thanos

Smart money sez the blue hardhat is a stage prop worn only for the demo...

How dare you insult Joe Constructo, American hero?

windsagio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:07:51pm

also forgive the cop comment, you guys make a lot of sense >>

Winny Spencer Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:07:52pm

And the Shrieking Harpy already tries to distance herself from the rally.

theheat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:09:10pm

re: #41 Winny Spencer

"Okay, so I feed them red meat. But it isn't my fault they went crazy with it."

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:09:14pm

re: #14 McSpiff

Racist mobs nearly attacking a lone black man? Nope, this doesn't sound like anything i've ever heard of historically.

It's somewhat new in New York City, though. Still hideous.

[deleted] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:10:08pm

Randall Gross Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:10:09pm

re: #36 Jeff In Ohio

He's in the UN.

(United Nutjobs)

The hat seems too shiny and new in the vid, of course the poor quality could be creating that illusion... but I've never seen a real hard hat w/o scuffs, scratches, and dents.

CuriousLurker Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:10:21pm

re: #34 Obdicut

Okay. Stay safe. I hope things don't get much worse than this.

Thanks for your concern. {Obdicut}

That crap isn't going to fly over here in my part of Jersey—there are tons of Muslims over here, and the the minorities here are actually the majority. Besides, the bigots would have to make it through East Orange and Newark alive to get to where I live. Heh.

windsagio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:10:39pm

re: #45 Thanos

anwyays, who wears a hard-hat to a rally? Did he just get off the Sunday Morning Shift?

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:11:28pm

re: #47 windsagio

anwyays, who wears a hard-hat to a rally? Did he just get off the Sunday Morning Shift?

Village People guy.

McSpiff Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:12:14pm

re: #43 Dark_Falcon

It's somewhat new in New York City, though. Still hideous.

Hmmm I somewhat assumed many of the protesters would be from out of town. Not that I had any evidence for this to be honest.

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:12:20pm

re: #37 wlewisiii

I carry a copy of the Constitution that I got from the Cato institute. It's interesting how many times the words on paper aren't the words people think are there. I swear sometimes its as bad as when I get Shakespeare quoted to me as coming from the bible.

But what do I know? I'm just an Army vet Democratic Socialist...

You know that "to each according to their needs" actual is in the Bible, right?

Randall Gross Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:12:24pm

re: #47 windsagio

Eggs Ackly. He was trying to pose as a ground zero construction worker -- and ended up threatening one.

jaunte Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:12:25pm

re: #47 windsagio

He came looking for trouble, armored in a plastic hat.

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:13:03pm

re: #52 jaunte

He came looking for trouble, armored in a plastic hat.

Bob the Bilderberger

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:13:34pm

re: #39 deadletterboy

Cincinnati had the Construction Clown (RIP).

[Link: cmsimg.cincinnati.com...]

Maybe Mr. Blue Hardhat is the downtown NYC version.

jaunte Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:13:53pm

re: #53 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Inside yob!

dmon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:14:17pm

Did ya catch the two guys worried that the media might of caught it.....

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:17:06pm

re: #56 dmon

Hell yeah, I don't blame them!

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:18:12pm

I still have Robert Spencer's emails to me.

In one of them he whinges on about how could I possible attack the "brave little band" of anti-jihadists who are trying to save us all from Wahhabism and the jizyah.

How does it feel, Robert, now that your little band has turned into a mob of lynch-ready pogromists?

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:18:47pm

One day, we'll be sitting around the table in Atlanta... talking about the terrible racism that was showed up north... back in 2010...

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:19:05pm

One of the many ironies of this protest is that it was held at the WTC site, not at the Burlington Coat Factory storefront.

ReamWorks SKG Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:19:57pm

re: #20 Obdicut

Cops may want to prevent a fight, but I can assure you, they're looking out for nobody.

lawhawk Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:19:57pm

I await the spin from the organizers about how the video was: 1) taken out of context; 2) the organizers don't condone the actions of those in the video; 3) were extremely sorry and disappointed with what transpired... etc...

What a mess. And I hope that the guy who was accosted remembers what happened and tells his buddies working on the new WTC complex what a piece of work these folks are.

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:20:01pm

re: #59 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

One day, we'll be sitting around the table in Atlanta... talking about the terrible racism that was shown up north... back in 2010...

Damn my dumb illiterate southern ass...

theheat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:20:26pm

re: #60 Stanley Sea

They were probably trying to avoid all the other stuff, like titty bars, where the Cordoba center is going. They're not going to compromise their morals.

jaunte Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:20:56pm

re: #60 Stanley Sea

Holding it at the actual site might have confused some of the mob.
"Why are we over here?"

lawhawk Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:22:38pm

re: #60 Stanley Sea

Actually, the rally was held on West Broadway, which is just around the corner. It ran for several blocks, and I can't tell, but the police kept the crowds on West Broadway and away from Park Place.

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:22:42pm

re: #65 jaunte

Where's ground zero?

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:22:46pm

I was really, really hoping to see a couple of nearly naked grrrls from the "New York Dolls" - ahem! - "gentlemen's club" with anti-mosque slogans painted across their ta-tas.

Man just can't catch a break these days.

deadletterboy Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:24:33pm

re: #62 lawhawk

Pamela Geller is already saying she doesn't condone their actions, and manages to call Max Blumenthal a 'jew-hater' in the process.

ReamWorks SKG Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:24:56pm

re: #50 Cato the Elder

Wow! I never knew this (or you just quickly edited the wikipedia to make it so).

The origins are explained here:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

One of these days, I'll sit down and read the "New Testament". It's full of these little gems!

deadletterboy Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:25:09pm

re: #68 Cato the Elder

Here you go.
[Link: www.sfgate.com...]

dmon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:25:45pm

Notice a totally racially homogeneous crowd.......... then one scary black guy walks thru and they assume he is the enemy. But hey, it's not about race

austin_blue Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:26:57pm

Main Entry: de·spi·ca·ble
Pronunciation: di-ˈspi-kə-bəl, ˈdes-(ˌ)pi-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Late Latin despicabilis, from Latin despicari to despise
Date: 1553
: deserving to be despised : so worthless or obnoxious as to rouse moral indignation

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:27:28pm

"They're going to try to make us look like a bunch of racists. It ain't happening. It ain't happening."

Response: "He must have voted for Obama!"

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:27:44pm

re: #19 Cato the Elder

I can't understand a single word in that entire audio track, including whatever it is they're chanting.

But I detest any crowd of humans on the street that thinks it's got a collective mind.

Yeah...they'd become the fucking Borg.

And we know what would happen in the end....we'd kick their collective ass.

/geeking out here

zxbe Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:28:12pm

The sad thing is those who were going after the black guy call themselves "patriots."

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:28:25pm

re: #69 deadletterboy

What a shithead. You don't condone pissing in the sink to save water. This is the shit you condemn.

reidr Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:28:37pm

re: #39 deadletterboy

How dare you insult Joe Constructo, American hero?

Heh, just what I was going to say. Will he actually be interviewed on Fox and glorified by the right? Did you see how he stood up to that muslim or black or whatever guy?

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:28:43pm

Honestly, I think it was less just race and more the hat style (or at least the combination of skin color and hat style) that set them off.

ReamWorks SKG Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:28:44pm

Being a former New Yorker (born in Brooklyn), I did smile when I heard how they pronounced "mosque". Sort of like "Mawwsk"

jaunte Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:28:54pm

re: #69 deadletterboy

Pamela Geller is already saying she doesn't condone their actions, and manages to call Max Blumenthal a 'jew-hater' in the process.

She's already forgotten what happened at the previous rally:

"We must take a stand and we must say no," shouted rally organizer Pamela Geller as the crowd roared approval. Moments later, another keynote speaker, Robert Spencer, sparked more cheers when he asked, "Are you tired of being lied to?"

Spencer, however, did not explain precisely what lies he was referring to.

Many protesters held American flags. Many carried signs.

"A Mosque at Ground Zero Spits on the Graves of 9/11," one placard proclaimed. Another sign depicted a toilet, with this message: "This is a Mosque. Do You Want it Built at Ground Zero?"

At one point, a portion of the crowd menacingly surrounded two Egyptian men who were speaking Arabic and were thought to be Muslims.

"Go home," several shouted from the crowd.

"Get out," others shouted.

In fact, the two men – Joseph Nassralla and Karam El Masry — were not Muslims at all. They turned out to be Egyptian Coptic Christians who work for a California-based Christian satellite TV station called "The Way." Both said they had come to protest the mosque.

"I'm a Christian," Nassralla shouted to the crowd, his eyes bulging and beads of sweat rolling down his face.

But it was no use. The protesters had become so angry at what they thought were Muslims that New York City police officers had to rush in and pull Nassralla and El Masry to safety.

"I flew nine hours in an airplane to come here," a frustrated Nassralla said afterward.

The incident underscores how contentious — and, perhaps, how irrational — the debate over the mosque has become.
[Link: www.northjersey.com...]

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:29:00pm

re: #69 deadletterboy

Pamela Geller is already saying she doesn't condone their actions, and manages to call Max Blumenthal a 'jew-hater' in the process.

Irony, thy name is Pam Geller...

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:30:35pm

re: #76 zxbe

The sad thing is those who were going after the black guy call themselves "patriots."

They are precisely the opposite. Even if you did believe that there was a chance the Park51 project could breed terrorism or whatever, a patriot is someone who is willing to take on personal risk in defense of the founding principles of their nation. In this case, that'd be freedom of speech.

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:31:52pm

re: #71 deadletterboy

Here you go.
[Link: www.sfgate.com...]

You can't believe anything in the Chronicle!!1 It's a Radical Progressive Newspaper!1 If we don't act now, Rauf is going to force those strippers into burqas!!!11

/Shrieking Harpy

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:32:13pm

re: #58 Cato the Elder

I still have Robert Spencer's emails to me.

In one of them he whinges on about how could I possible attack the "brave little band" of anti-jihadists who are trying to save us all from Wahhabism and the jizyah.

How does it feel, Robert, now that your little band has turned into a mob of lynch-ready pogromists?

He probably blew his load, thinking he's Lord of the Wingnut Universe...

pharmmajor Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:33:21pm

This is what happens when you have so much scum concentrated in one area.

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:34:32pm

And this next one goes out to any in the crowd who will say "I'm not racist and I didn't harass that man!":

Youtube Video

zxbe Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:34:39pm

re: #83 elbruce

They are precisely the opposite. Even if you did believe that there was a chance the Park51 project could breed terrorism or whatever, a patriot is someone who is willing to take on personal risk in defense of the founding principles of their nation. In this case, that'd be freedom of speech.

Indeed. Of course if you try to explain this to one of these folks, then they just launch into a personal attack against you. "Terrorist sympathizer," "Traitor," etc.

And Dr. Laura thinks she has it bad? She should be a liberal trying to defend the constitution sometime.

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:34:43pm

re: #82 talon_262

Irony, thy name is Pam Geller...

That is not irony.

It is mental and moral illness.

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:36:11pm

re: #88 zxbe

Indeed. Of course if you try to explain this to one of these folks, then they just launch into a personal attack against you. "Terrorist sympathizer," "Traitor," etc.

And Dr. Laura thinks she has it bad? She should be a liberal trying to defend the constitution sometime.

Or a conservative who actually believes in its principles.

Kragar Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:38:59pm

Nice work assholes

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:40:46pm

re: #90 Dark_Falcon

Or a conservative who actually believes in its principles.

These days that pretty much makes you a liberal...

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:40:53pm

What if he had actually been a black American Muslim and had stood up for the mosque project?

Someday that is going to happen and we will see what kind of "patriots" these people truly are.

I do not expect it to be pretty.

deadletterboy Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:42:39pm

re: #93 Cato the Elder

I'm just hoping that this video hits the news, or similar ones do, and show the world what these people are actually like. But of course, that story jaunte mentioned in #81 didn't really do it....

Kragar Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:43:27pm

re: #93 Cato the Elder

What if he had actually been a black American Muslim and had stood up for the mosque project?

Someday that is going to happen and we will see what kind of "patriots" these people truly are.

I do not expect it to be pretty.

And when it does, they'll blame someone else, who is trying to undermine their "noble" work

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:43:35pm

For those who want some Cognitive Dissonance, here's my page from yesterday. Despite a tower of evidence to the contrary, Sott Wheeler (one of the funders of the protests) still insists that the National Republican Trust (which is not actually part of the party) is is not bigoted. He say "This is NOT a First Amendment issue. We believe in, and cherish the Freedom of Religion.". Click the link and read the rest. It's nutty, but its an example of the mindset we're facing.

karmic_inquisitor Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:45:09pm

On the subject of suspicious black men ... here is an earth shaker -

Obama is Xenu.

CuriousLurker Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:46:08pm

I hope teachers are prepared to deal with this when school starts back up, because you know kids are bound to bring the nastiness they hear from their parents to school.

It's going to suck to be a Muslim kid in public school this fall. It won't be so bad for the kids that go to Islamic schools, but there aren't all that many of them and they'll probably need to hire extra security just to be on the safe side.

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:46:10pm

re: #86 pharmmajor

This is what happens when you have so much scum concentrated in one area.

Too bad the Ty-D-Bol Man (or, rather, the actor that played him (Dan Resin), who also played Dr. Beeper in Caddyshack) just passed away...that crowd needed flushing.

100

thelacritic Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:46:26pm

Does any know if there are any other $100 million Muslim community centers/Mosques in the United States? Is this a relatively normal size investment for this type of building? And if so, what other cities? Dearborn maybe?

101

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:46:38pm

re: #92 elbruce

These days that pretty much makes you a liberal...

Not really. On economic and foreign policy issues I hold very different views than liberals tend to hold. However, a bedrock principle of mine has always been that they Constitution says what it means and means what it says. And in this case, the Free Exercise Clause trumps the fact that Park 51 offends some people. Absent actual violations of the law, the project must be allowed to go forwards.

102

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:46:57pm

re: #100 thelacritic

How is it relative?

103

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:47:22pm

re: #89 Cato the Elder

That is not irony.

It is mental and moral illness.

OK, you got me...Pamz is not a "Jew hater", she a hater Jew.

104

reidr Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:47:49pm

re: #100 thelacritic

This is Manhattan. I'm sure prices are a little out of whack. Maybe a better question is if there are expensive churches in Manhattan?

105

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:47:55pm

re: #100 thelacritic

Very first post, btw.

106

deadletterboy Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:48:13pm

re: #100 thelacritic

Why does this matter?

107

Kreuzueber Halbmond Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:48:18pm

It's getting frothy in Xenophobiaville, and I don't mean the beer.

108

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:48:21pm

I'd like to see a bunch of trannies get dressed up as Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Zoroaster, Buddha, the Bab, Mary, Joan of Arc, Ishtar, and Athena, rent a float, and come sailin' into one of these demos doing a full-out live version of "YMCA".

That would stun at least a dozen of these assholes into speechlessness for, say, 17 seconds.

109

Velvet Elvis Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:48:41pm

re: #100 thelacritic

Does any know if there are any other $100 million Muslim community centers/Mosques in the United States? Is this a relatively normal size investment for this type of building? And if so, what other cities? Dearborn maybe?

Every other major religion has hundreds so I'd assume there are others.

110

thelacritic Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:48:46pm

Sorry, any=anyone. Not a good start for my first post.

111

karmic_inquisitor Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:49:39pm

re: #100 thelacritic

Does any know if there are any other $100 million Muslim community centers/Mosques in the United States? Is this a relatively normal size investment for this type of building? And if so, what other cities? Dearborn maybe?

Gee - maybe the land might be expensive. Then again, it is probably dirt cheap down in lower Manhattan. And the construction costs can't be expensive there either, seeing as there is so much room around you to be able to stage equipment and whatnot. Labor has got to be dirt cheap too.

112

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:49:52pm

re: #110 thelacritic

I wonder what St. Patrick's would go for. Cathedral of St. John the Divine. Riverside.

113

Obdicut Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:50:35pm

re: #101 Dark_Falcon

Not really. On economic and foreign policy issues I hold very different views than liberals tend to hold.

On foreign policy, you now hold very different views from modern conservatives. At least, the GOP.

114

CuriousLurker Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:50:57pm

BBL

115

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:51:05pm

re: #89 Cato the Elder

That is not irony.

It is mental and moral illness.

Absolutely.

She's denying any connection whatsoever with this rally, and that small detail might be true.

And I say it's a small detail, because in the larger picture, what is also true, is that the anger of these people was carefully nurtured and stoked by her (and friends); she may have had nothing to do with this rally, but responsibility for it is directly on her shoulders.

I first saw this video a couple of years ago - I was immediately convinced she is a loon of the first order, and wants attention more than she wants to hold to any sort of principle.

116

reidr Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:51:22pm

re: #104 reidr

This is Manhattan. I'm sure prices are a little out of whack. Maybe a better question is if there are expensive churches in Manhattan?

And by "churches", I mean community centers with a Christian theme, or YMCAs or etc. And as someone else mentioned, are you curious as to whether it qualifies as a "Mega mosque"?

117

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:51:34pm

re: #113 Obdicut

On foreign policy, you now hold very different views from modern conservatives. At least, the GOP.

How so? Bear in mind I don't consider Park 51 a foreign policy matter.

118

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:53:07pm

re: #100 thelacritic

Does any know if there are any other $100 million Muslim community centers/Mosques in the United States? Is this a relatively normal size investment for this type of building? And if so, what other cities? Dearborn maybe?

I don't know.
And does it matter? If Muslims want to build a community center, is it necessary for there to be an equivalent facility somewhere else? Does it have to be "relatively normal" size to be acceptable?

119

thelacritic Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:53:17pm

Why is it relevant? Wouldn't it be relative if this was the largest Islamic Mosque/Community center in the US? I think if it's a normal size investment not such a big deal. But if it's an extraordinary investment something could be read into the investors' motives for spending such an unusual amount of money.

120

Obdicut Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:54:50pm

re: #117 Dark_Falcon

How so? Bear in mind I don't consider Park 51 a foreign policy matter.

It is, though. By opposing moderate Muslims at home, the GOP is dooming our anti-terrorism efforts. It makes a mockery and a lie out of what we have done in Iraq and Afghanistan. This is not merely domestic policy.

Furthermore, the GOP has become completely anti-science. Science, technology, is military power. There is no military capability without science, and the GOP is now the anti-science party.

That's not even to mention Gingrich's lies about meeting with Russian dictators in order to smear Obama, or the madness of AGW denial.

121

reidr Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:55:21pm

re: #115 reine.de.tout

This almost certainly will be picked up by Olbermann and Maddow, and if there's more (there has to be), other mainstream media. It's too ugly and controversial for them to ignore. Let's hope they expose Geller for the inciter she is.

122

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:55:42pm

re: #119 thelacritic

Like what? When my YMCA built a new waterpark, should I have been suspicious of their motives? WHy don't you make your point.

123

karmic_inquisitor Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:55:56pm

re: #119 thelacritic

Why is it relevant? Wouldn't it be relative if this was the largest Islamic Mosque/Community center in the US? I think if it's a normal size investment not such a big deal. But if it's an extraordinary investment something could be read into the investors' motives for spending such an unusual amount of money.

Investors?

This isn't Scientology.

124

Winny Spencer Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:56:12pm

re: #108 Cato the Elder

+1, and musn't forget, someone dressed up as Tom Cruise.

125

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:56:16pm

re: #119 thelacritic

One hundred million dollars is doodleysquat for a new 13-storey building in Manhattan.

And I smell sock or troll comin' off you. Just sayin'.

126

Digital Display Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:56:24pm

re: #119 thelacritic

Why is it relevant? Wouldn't it be relative if this was the largest Islamic Mosque/Community center in the US? I think if it's a normal size investment not such a big deal. But if it's an extraordinary investment something could be read into the investors' motives for spending such an unusual amount of money.

They built a 1.7 Billion dollar stadium in New Jersey to worship the God's of Football.. nobody blinked an eye...

127

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:57:34pm

re: #126 HoosierHoops

They built a 1.7 Billion dollar stadium in New Jersey to worship the God's of Football.. nobody blinked an eye...

Heh, bet the state kicked in for that, too. We're still crying and paying for Paul Brown Stadium. At least I am.

128

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:58:11pm

re: #123 karmic_inquisitor

Investors?

This isn't Scientology.

We've already found some Saudi money in Park 51's funding. The Saudis often see money spent on Islamic construction as being invested in spreading Jihad. Rauf should refuse any Saudi money and especially refuse any literature from there.

129

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:58:34pm

re: #126 HoosierHoops

They built a 1.7 Billion dollar stadium in New Jersey to worship the God's of Football.. nobody blinked an eye...

Except for Jimmy Hoffa's ghost.

130

deadletterboy Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:58:46pm

re: #108 Cato the Elder

Throw in Batman and Robin just for giggles. The Adam West era, not this current, awesome incarnation (though that incarnation was sort of awesome too)

131

webevintage Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:59:03pm

Who wants to bet that by tomorrow we'll know what kind of counter tops Kenny has and they'll be calling him a Union thug and/or a pro-Park51 liberal Muslim plant?

132

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:59:21pm

re: #126 HoosierHoops

They built a 1.7 Billion dollar stadium in New Jersey to worship the God's of Football.. nobody blinked an eye...

That, my friend, is a fantastic post. Kudo's. Way to throw a little perspective in.

133

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:59:32pm

re: #128 Dark_Falcon

We've already found some Saudi money in Park 51's funding. The Saudis often see money spent on Islamic construction as being invested in spreading Jihad. Rauf should refuse any Saudi money and especially refuse any literature from there.

DF - did you see Killgore's page the other day about Fox News and its Saudi investors?

Rauf has made his position clear, I can't see that he's been shy about it.
If someone wants to give him money knowing his position - why shouldn't he take it? Puts him in league with FoxNews.

134

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:59:39pm

re: #128 Dark_Falcon

BTW, I'm not trying to say that Rauf is a Jihadi or that he intends to spread Jihad. But the Saudis often want to fund mosques to spread Wahabbism.

135

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:00:12pm

re: #132 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That, my friend, is a fantastic post. Kudo's. Way to throw a little perspective in.

It was, wasn't it?
I about choked with laughter when I saw it . . .

136

Obdicut Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:00:38pm

re: #134 Dark_Falcon

BTW, I'm not trying to say that Rauf is a Jihadi or that he intends to spread Jihad. But the Saudis often want to fund mosques to spread Wahabbism.

Can you explain how funding a Sufi mosque would ever spread Wahabbism?

137

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:01:01pm

re: #133 reine.de.tout

Exactly. Will my YMCA start espousing atheism if I make a large donation on their next project?

138

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:01:20pm

re: #119 thelacritic

Why is it relevant? Wouldn't it be relative if this was the largest Islamic Mosque/Community center in the US? I think if it's a normal size investment not such a big deal. But if it's an extraordinary investment something could be read into the investors' motives for spending such an unusual amount of money.

You're forgetting a couple of things. For one, both Feisal Abdul Rauf and his wife, Daisy Kahn, are both American citizens. The other being that thing called the Patriot Act and the IRS which they have to file when doing the financial groundwork. It's not like they're going to freelance this whole operation like some mob outfit during the days of prohibition. Everything will be subject to public and governmental scrutiny.

139

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:01:24pm

Speaking of football... there's a 70 year old man on the field warming up in a Viking's uniform.

140

reidr Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:01:41pm

re: #126 HoosierHoops

They built a 1.7 Billion dollar stadium in New Jersey to worship the God's of Football.. nobody blinked an eye...

*dons hardhat, gets in grill* Hey, you ain't talkin' bad about football are you? You even from here? Is that a basketball you're holdin' you sonofa...!

/ (I often forget this)

141

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:02:27pm

re: #139 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Fran?

142

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:02:38pm

re: #125 Cato the Elder

Whenever the first post is a poop on the carpet right in the middle of the living room, always makes me curious.

143

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:02:39pm

re: #136 Obdicut

Can you explain how funding a Sufi mosque would ever spread Wahabbism?

It could be used to disseminate Saudi hate-lit. But I must note that that has not happened yet. I don't think Rauf should have anything to do with Saudi Arabia, but he has not done anything to further the cause of Radical Islam.

144

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:03:00pm

re: #131 webevintage

Who wants to bet that by tomorrow we'll know what kind of counter tops Kenny has and they'll be calling him a Union thug and/or a pro-Park51 liberal Muslim plant?

Let's all get together and ask Murdoch to force al-Awlaweed to divest from Fux News. That'll work, too.

145

alexknyc Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:03:03pm

re: #68 Cato the Elder

I was really, really hoping to see a couple of nearly naked grrrls from the "New York Dolls" - ahem! - "gentlemen's club" with anti-mosque slogans painted across their ta-tas.

Man just can't catch a break these days.

There have been several news stories interviewing the girls. They seem almost unanimously in favor of the center and some of them seem to understand the Constitution better than the politicians.

146

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:03:13pm

re: #138 Gus 802

You're forgetting a couple of things. For one, both Feisal Abdul Rauf and his wife, Daisy Kahn, are both American citizens. The other being that thing called the Patriot Act and the IRS which they have to file when doing the financial groundwork. It's not like they're going to freelance this whole operation like some mob outfit during the days of prohibition. Everything will be subject to public and governmental scrutiny.

AND, everything up to this point has been subject to public and governmental scrutiny.

This isn't some vague mysterious shadowy project. It's been exposed to the full light of day for quite some time now.

147

Sheila Broflovski Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:03:41pm

re: #115 reine.de.tout

Absolutely.

She's denying any connection whatsoever with this rally, and that small detail might be true.

And I say it's a small detail, because in the larger picture, what is also true, is that the anger of these people was carefully nurtured and stoked by her (and friends); she may have had nothing to do with this rally, but responsibility for it is directly on her shoulders.

I first saw this video a couple of years ago - I was immediately convinced she is a loon of the first order, and wants attention more than she wants to hold to any sort of principle.

The ocean sure makes her thighs look fat!

148

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:03:59pm

re: #144 Cato the Elder

Sorry. That was meant for #134.

149

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:04:03pm

re: #141 Jeff In Ohio

Lorenzo...

150

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:04:36pm

re: #146 reine.de.tout

AND, everything up to this point has been subject to public and governmental scrutiny.

This isn't some vague mysterious shadowy project. It's been exposed to the full light of day for quite some time now.

Yep. If there was ever a smoking gun we would have seen a lot of smoke by now. And I mean anything serious and not nefarious allegations and connections based on hearsay.

151

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:04:46pm

re: #147 Alouette

The ocean sure makes her thighs look fat!

oooooh!
low blow!
LOLOLOLOLOL!
You know that observation would drive her nuts!

152

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:04:56pm

re: #149 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Lamas?

153

Obdicut Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:05:10pm

re: #143 Dark_Falcon

It could be used to disseminate Saudi hate-lit.

How? What is the connection? Does the money come with crates of anti-semitic cartoons?

154

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:05:21pm

re: #145 alexknyc

There have been several news stories interviewing the girls. They seem almost unanimously in favor of the center and some of them seem to understand the Constitution better than the politicians.

They probably realize that Muslims can be just as hypocritical as anyone else, and expect a boost in trade from the "mosque's" visitors.

155

karmic_inquisitor Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:05:22pm

This thread is really off track. It is supposed to be about black men not being who they appear to be.

So let me just offer a juicy tidbit from the well researched exclusive report that I linked to upthread that reveals that Obama is Xenu -

“We told you he wasn’t born in Hawaii,” yelled a rabid Orly Taiz, the head of the Birther Movement. “That’s why he doesn’t have a birth certificate. He’s an alien!” Orly Taiz is now starting a new movement; the Barack Obama is an Alien movement. Robert Gibbs is starting another movement, Orly Taiz is an alien. “Orly and President Obama were enemies on Planet Zeeba, 50 million ago. Orly holds a grudge for a long time.”

156

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:05:28pm

re: #139 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Speaking of football... there's a 70 year old man on the field warming up in a Viking's uniform.

He doesn't play like he's 70, that's my problem. (Bears Fan)

157

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:05:37pm

re: #151 reine.de.tout

I bet she has big feet.

Yeah, I'm a hit a bbq's.

158

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:06:10pm

re: #152 Jeff In Ohio

Lamas?

Youtube Video

159

alexknyc Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:06:17pm

re: #98 CuriousLurker

I hope teachers are prepared to deal with this when school starts back up, because you know kids are bound to bring the nastiness they hear from their parents to school.

It's going to suck to be a Muslim kid in public school this fall. It won't be so bad for the kids that go to Islamic schools, but there aren't all that many of them and they'll probably need to hire extra security just to be on the safe side.

The mosque across the street from where I teach is a Sufi mosque as well. I'll have to pop over and ask them what they think of all this and whether it's made their life more difficult.

160

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:06:30pm

re: #153 Obdicut

How? What is the connection? Does the money come with crates of anti-semitic cartoons?

The dollar bills of Jihadi Motivational Quotes™ rubber stamped on them.

161

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:07:56pm

re: #160 Jeff In Ohio

The dollar bills have...

162

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:07:59pm

Somebody better tell Lockheed-Martin that they've been taking in billions of dollars of Saudi money. And Exxon. And Haliburton. And Boeing. And Microsoft...

163

jaunte Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:08:53pm

re: #162 Gus 802

Wow, how did the Saudis get all that money?

164

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:09:36pm

re: #163 jaunte

Wow, how did the Saudis get all that money?

Buying stuff. Services. Lockheed-Martin mostly for military hardware.

165

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:09:47pm

re: #153 Obdicut

How? What is the connection? Does the money come with crates of anti-semitic cartoons?

There are many ways. But while I do worry about it, it's remains a hypothetical. Those visiting Park 51 should keep their eyes open for any hate-lit but other than that no action is needed. And no I don't expect to find any hate-lit, but its still prudent to be vigilant (note: that does not mean doing anything but noting what is normally available for reading or purchase).

166

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:10:11pm

re: #161 Jeff In Ohio

You'd better click my 158...

167

jaunte Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:10:12pm

re: #164 Gus 802

Sorry, my / ran out of gas.

168

alexknyc Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:10:38pm

re: #136 Obdicut

Can you explain how funding a Sufi mosque would ever spread Wahabbism?

That's too nuanced for most of the "mosque critics." To most of them, it's just all "Islam."

169

lawhawk Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:10:59pm

re: #146 reine.de.tout

And as the NYT noted way back in November 2009, the group was already using the space as a prayer space overflow when they decided to announce their intentions to build a community center and mosque on the location.

170

thelacritic Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:11:17pm

re: #125 Cato the Elder

One hundred million dollars is doodleysquat for a new 13-storey building in Manhattan.

And I smell sock or troll comin' off you. Just sayin'.

$100 million is "doodleysquat" especially in this current economy? I see the size of investment relative to other Islamic mosques. Why is it so important to build it there, even if they are 100% entitled to build it there especially if it's a sizable amount of money. I'd like to think there are a lot better ways to put $100 million towards. Why is this building especially before the controversy? Maybe it is a way to bring the Muslim community closer into mainstream culture. But if dimwit is spending an extraordinary amount of money it stands to reason there must also be an extraordinary reason. You can infer good or bad from that. I asked a question to bring more facts into the debate and you suddenly get offended about trolls and sock puppets. Why so sensitive?

171

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:11:34pm

re: #167 jaunte

Sorry, my / ran out of gas.

That's OK. Been out of gas myself since yesterday. More so than usual.

172

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:11:52pm

re: #166 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You'd better click my 158...

Oh I did. I love me some Ben Stiller.

173

alexknyc Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:12:23pm

re: #154 Cato the Elder

They probably realize that Muslims can be just as hypocritical as anyone else, and expect a boost in trade from the "mosque's" visitors.

Why not? I've seen Hasidic Jews in strip clubs in NYC.

174

Obdicut Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:13:35pm

re: #165 Dark_Falcon

There are many ways. .

Name one.

175

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:13:43pm

re: #165 Dark_Falcon

There are many ways. But while I do worry about it, it's remains a hypothetical. Those visiting Park 51 should keep their eyes open for any hate-lit but other than that no action is needed. And no I don't expect to find any hate-lit, but its still prudent to be vigilant (note: that does not mean doing anything but noting what is normally available for reading or purchase).

I'm trusting that our government agencies who are supposed to know these sorts of things, know if and where and when any of that sort of stuff is distributed.

A quick story, though -the Saudis do take this stuff seriously.

When I was HR Director for a state agency, we one day received a crate, a CRATE, of pamphlets about Islam, from the Saudis, extolling the virtues of Islam and inviting people to convert, along with a letter asking if we would kindly distribute these to our employees.

We didn't of course. I'm not sure they quite understood how big a no-no it would be for a government agency to distribute religious materials to its employees.

176

karmic_inquisitor Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:13:45pm

re: #170 thelacritic

"Just askin' questions..."

177

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:14:15pm

re: #170 thelacritic

Why don' you make your point.

178

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:14:42pm

re: #165 Dark_Falcon

There are many ways. But while I do worry about it, it's remains a hypothetical. Those visiting Park 51 should keep their eyes open for any hate-lit but other than that no action is needed. And no I don't expect to find any hate-lit, but its still prudent to be vigilant (note: that does not mean doing anything but noting what is normally available for reading or purchase).

I constantly scan my local Catholic church to make sure there are no Chick Tracts lying around anywhere. So far I haven't found any.

I did turn up this thing, though.

Since parish operations have recently been taken over by Dominican friars, I am very, very concerned.

179

dmon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:15:37pm

re: #170 thelacritic

Why is it so important to build it there,

It's important to build it there because its in the same neighborhood where they already have a presence. Would it make more sense for a mosque in NYC to build it Salt Lake city???????

180

deadletterboy Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:15:46pm

re: #178 Cato the Elder

I have started collecting Chick Tracts. I live near a famously hateful church, the Mt. Hope Church in Lansing, MI, so I can usually get ahold of them.

181

ProGunLiberal Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:15:51pm

re: #170 thelacritic

I smell troll here.

I do hope you realize how much it a) costs to get any land in New York City, and b) how much money it takes to build anything there too. It's a 13 story building with a basketball court and swimming pool, among other things, for heaven's sake.

182

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:15:52pm

re: #170 thelacritic

I asked a question to bring more facts into the debate and you suddenly get offended about trolls and sock puppets. Why so sensitive?

I have a keen sense of smell.

183

webevintage Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:15:54pm

re: #178 Cato the Elder

I constantly scan my local Catholic church to make sure there are no Chick Tracts lying around anywhere. So far I haven't found any.

I did turn up this thing, though.

Since parish operations have recently been taken over by Dominican friars, I am very, very concerned.

The Elder Gods gotta eat...

184

lawhawk Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:16:41pm

re: #170 thelacritic

$100 million isn't a particularly large sum for building in NYC, and sounds about right for a community center with 100,000 sf.

They bought the building because it met their desire for commercial space that can be used for religious and community center purposes (C6-3 zoning). There aren't that many of those properties in Lower Manhattan, where they they see a need for additional prayer space and for a community center.

The CB1 agreed and approved the project.

185

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:16:50pm

re: #178 Cato the Elder

I'm worried about the neighborhood parish school. They have been letting some pretty questionable characters into it. Luckily, I only show up for Back TO School Night, so the little ones will be safe!

186

alexknyc Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:17:53pm

re: #184 lawhawk

The CB1 agreed and approved the project.

On a side note, have you ever been to a CB meeting? They're a hoot.

187

lawhawk Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:18:31pm

re: #186 alexknyc

A long time and a galaxy ago... However, I've been to association meetings where I live, and it's along the same lines..

188

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:18:38pm

re: #170 thelacritic

I would think in the current economy, it would be a blessing to have someone proposing to spend $100 million.

You may think there's a better way to spend the money, but it ain't your decision how to spend that money.

And what is this concern about the size of the investment relative to other Islamic mosques?

You do know, do you not, that this is not really a mosque, but a community center that will include an Islamic prayer center, probably more akin to a chapel in a hospital or other facility, than a mosque?

189

CuriousLurker Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:18:51pm

re: #159 alexknyc

The mosque across the street from where I teach is a Sufi mosque as well. I'll have to pop over and ask them what they think of all this and whether it's made their life more difficult.

That would be great. I'd be very interested in hearing what they have to say.

190

Sheila Broflovski Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:19:00pm

re: #183 webevintage

The Elder Gods gotta eat...

So, you wanna be an Elder's hors d'oeuvre, or the dessert?

191

Daniel Ballard Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:19:08pm

re: #19 Cato the Elder

I can't understand a single word in that entire audio track, including whatever it is they're chanting.

But I detest any crowd of humans on the street that thinks it's got a collective mind.

A collective mind with an iq of about 70 total...

192

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:20:34pm

I leave for a few hours and come back to this bullshit?

re: #41 Winny Spencer

And the Shrieking Harpy already tries to distance herself from the rally.

I saw this. She claims she wasn't anywhere near NY and had nothing to do with. We need Spare to ask the tough questions, like what's she trying to hide.

193

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:21:04pm

re: #165 Dark_Falcon

There are many ways. But while I do worry about it, it's remains a hypothetical. Those visiting Park 51 should keep their eyes open for any hate-lit but other than that no action is needed. And no I don't expect to find any hate-lit, but its still prudent to be vigilant (note: that does not mean doing anything but noting what is normally available for reading or purchase).

Leave the vigilance to the authorities. We've already seen what happens when vigilance is taken up by anti-Jihadist bloggers and their chair-force take up the task with the likes of Pam Geller and Robert Spencer.

194

Linden Arden Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:22:15pm

A $100 million mosque project shows the insanity of this debate. Politico says

The Cordoba Initiative hasn’t yet begun fundraising for its $100 million goal. The group’s latest fundraising report with the state attorney general’s office, from 2008, shows exactly $18,255 — not enough even for a down payment on the half of the site the group has yet to purchase.

Read more: [Link: www.politico.com...]

The demonstrators should know this.

Unless, like many reasonable people suspect, they just want to vent because they are full of hate.

195

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:22:19pm

re: #178 Cato the Elder

I constantly scan my local Catholic church to make sure there are no Chick Tracts lying around anywhere. So far I haven't found any.

I did turn up this thing, though.

Since parish operations have recently been taken over by Dominican friars, I am very, very concerned.

Sorry, Cato. I worry a lot, is all. I'm not really expecting a problem and I'll shut up about it now.

196

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:23:48pm

Touchdown SF.

197

windsagio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:24:32pm

Hate to distract, but does anyone remember in vague terms (not specific obvoiusly) what the comment I made that got deleted was?

198

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:25:03pm

And Farve gets sacked! He takes too long to pass and gets plastered.

199

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:25:24pm

re: #197 windsagio

Hate to distract, but does anyone remember in vague terms (not specific obvoiusly) what the comment I made that got deleted was?

I didn't see it.

Did you quote someone, or link to something?
Or did you get deleted all on your own?

200

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:25:46pm

re: #197 windsagio

Even quoting a variation of a racial epithet, will get your quote 86'd. IIRC

201

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:26:11pm

re: #194 Linden Arden

A $100 million mosque project shows the insanity of this debate. Politico says

The demonstrators should know this.

Unless, like many reasonable people suspect, they just want to vent because they are full of hate.

Oh! But the New York Post (and Tradewind) said they only collected 250.00.

damn, I was fooled...again/

202

Lidane Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:26:16pm

re: #194 Linden Arden

Pfft. If the demonstrators knew anything, they'd know:

1. It's not a mosque. It's a community center.
2. It's not at Ground Zero itself, but rather several blocks away.
3. There's an actual mosque closer to Ground Zero already. Been there for decades, but no one is kicking a fuss about it now.
4. There's an actual mosque INSIDE the Pentagon, which was also attacked on 9/11. Not blocks away from it, but inside the building. Not a peep from these bigots about it at all.

The fact that these knuckleheads are out there screaming about a Ground Zero mosque just proves how easily manipulated some folks are. These are the rubes and the useful idiots that make assholes like Glenn Beck, Fox News, and Rush Limbaugh a whole lot of money.

203

alexknyc Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:26:49pm

re: #201 Stanley Sea

Oh! But the New York Post (and Tradewind) said they only collected 250.00.

damn, I was fooled...again/

Your first mistake was reading the Post.

204

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:27:18pm

re: #201 Stanley Sea

Oh! But the New York Post (and Tradewind) said they only collected 250.00.

damn, I was fooled...again/

According to Pam Geller...

205

windsagio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:27:24pm

re: #200 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

OHHH I remember now, yeah I'm a dummy >>

206

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:27:52pm

re: #205 windsagio

I saw it and my eyes got really big...

207

windsagio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:28:16pm

re: #206 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I saw it and my eyes got really big...

You know how it is, brain hiccups, anyways now I have to catch up with the actual thread, thanks :)

208

alexknyc Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:28:35pm

re: #202 Lidane

3. There's an actual mosque closer to Ground Zero already. Been there for decades, but no one is kicking a fuss about it now.
4. There's an actual mosque INSIDE the Pentagon, which was also attacked on 9/11. Not blocks away from it, but inside the building. Not a peep from these bigots about it at all.

Regarding #3-- Which mosque is closer? It was my understanding there were two in the area but none closer.

Regarding #4-- It was also my understanding that it was more like a non-denominational prayer room used by Muslims on Fridays and others at other times.

Have I misunderstood?

209

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:29:01pm

re: #201 Stanley Sea

Oh! But the New York Post (and Tradewind) said they only collected 250.00.

damn, I was fooled...again/

C'mon now, Tradewind doesn't just make stuff up. You obviously can't do math.

210

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:29:30pm

According to noted Qur'anic scholar and Islam expert, Robert Spencer...

211

karmic_inquisitor Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:29:32pm

re: #170 thelacritic

I asked a question to bring more facts into the debate

Whenever I debate someone, I like to bring up facts by asking questions. I once debated a Frenchman over agricultural subsidies.

My opening statement?

"Why do French cheeses smell so much? Is it because the French are smelly people? Is that why Frenchmen wear white socks with dark shoes? So that when someone says 'You smell like old socks - are you carrying cheese in them?' he can respond - 'Desole - I wear zee white socks stupeed. Eet cannot be me' ? Do French people think they can get away with that? Is that the sort of thinking that goes into their agricultural policies?"

212

captdiggs Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:30:03pm

re: #202 Lidane

It's not a mosque. It's a community center.

So, then I guess the whole religious freedom/Consitutional argument is out the window and we're just talking about property rights?

213

nines09 Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:30:54pm

I think the mob just let their slip show.
////

214

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:31:21pm

re: #209 Jeff In Ohio

C'mon now, Tradewind doesn't just make stuff up. You obviously can't do math.

Hoops was on, I think it was yesterday, and mentioned an article in the WSJ that supports the claim that they have a low number in the bank. He didn't say what the number was, but it's really small.

215

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:31:28pm

re: #209 Jeff In Ohio

C'mon now, Tradewind doesn't just make stuff up. You obviously can't do math.

Yeah, just another sucker on LGF. Ready to be fooled.

I swear, the NYPost (Murdoch) has as big a hand in this hatroversy as Geller.

216

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:31:42pm

re: #212 captdiggs

No, we've been talking about that as well. Don't jump to conclusions, CD; You may not like where you land.

217

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:31:46pm

re: #213 nines09

I think the mob just let their slip show.
///

From under their robes.

218

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:31:47pm

re: #213 nines09

I think the mob just let their slip show.
///

They said no to the mask.

219

Charles Johnson Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:31:57pm

Countdown to the first "he wuz planted!" comment...

220

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:32:04pm

re: #214 JasonA

Hoops was on, I think it was yesterday, and mentioned an article in the WSJ that supports the claim that they have a low number in the bank. He didn't say what the number was, but it's really small.

Yes.

and I don't use sarc tags.

221

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:32:22pm

re: #219 Charles

Countdown to the first "he wuz planted!" comment...

Harry Reid come up yet? ;)

222

Obdicut Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:32:37pm

re: #219 Charles

Countdown to the first "he wuz planted!" comment...

And countdown to Brietbart concluding that he's a racist.

223

Lidane Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:32:53pm

re: #212 captdiggs

It's an Islamic community center owned and operated by a Sufi group that just happens to have a prayer room in it.

They have the legal right to build, and the legal clearances to build. The only reason ANYONE is kicking up a fuss about it is because they're Muslims. Draw your own conclusions about whether it's about property rights or religious freedom, or both.

224

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:33:11pm

re: #220 Jeff In Ohio

Yes.

and I don't use sarc tags.

I knew you were being sarcastic, just saying that the Post might not be entirely wrong on this one.

225

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:33:14pm

re: #221 Gus 802

Harry Reid come up yet? ;)

Walter's working. I guess.

226

karmic_inquisitor Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:33:17pm

re: #219 Charles

Countdown to the first "he wuz planted!" comment...

I blame Xenu.

227

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:33:59pm

re: #197 windsagio

Hate to distract, but does anyone remember in vague terms (not specific obvoiusly) what the comment I made that got deleted was?

I know you put a lot of care and thought into your comments, so really, you must have some idea!

228

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:34:11pm

re: #223 Lidane

It's an Islamic community center owned and operated by a Sufi group that just happens to have a prayer room in it.

They have the legal right to build, and the legal clearances to build. The only reason ANYONE is kicking up a fuss about it is because they're Muslims. Draw your own conclusions about whether it's about property rights or religious freedom, or both.

They could scratch the plan for the prayer space and nothing would change at this point. So, yeah, it's 100% because Muslims are behind it.

229

captdiggs Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:34:17pm

re: #216 Dark_Falcon

I'm not the one who said it wasn't a mosque.
Those who are saying that are the ones who undercut the entire Constitutional issue.
They can't have it both ways.

230

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:34:23pm

re: #224 JasonA

Gotcha.

231

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:34:36pm

re: #227 Cato the Elder

(that one was not thought out...)

232

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:35:32pm

re: #225 Stanley Sea

Walter's working. I guess.

I threw him in up thread. And Dean. And Romney. Couldn't resist showing my outrage at the spineless.

233

alexknyc Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:35:57pm

re: #229 captdiggs

I'm not the one who said it wasn't a mosque.
Those who are saying that are the ones who undercut the entire Constitutional issue.
They can't have it both ways.

Seriously?

The only reason there's a nontroversy is that they're Muslims.

They have the property rights to the buildings and they're Constitutionally entitled to build an Islamic Center, complete with mosque.

People need to just get over it.

234

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:36:56pm

re: #233 alexknyc

People need to just get over it.

Not while there are votes to be had.

235

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:37:06pm

re: #208 alexknyc

Regarding #3-- Which mosque is closer? It was my understanding there were two in the area but none closer.

Regarding #4-- It was also my understanding that it was more like a non-denominational prayer room used by Muslims on Fridays and others at other times.

As I've heard it, the next closest mosque is at a four block distance from the WTC site.

And yes, the Pentagon facility is shared between Muslims and other religions. As such, it can't count as a "mosque" because the definition of that involves being exclusively used for prayer.

As an aside, the prayer room in the Park51 facility is called a mosque by them, so we can't really say it's not one when they're calling it one.

236

Lidane Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:37:22pm

re: #229 captdiggs

It doesn't undercut the Constitutional argument at all.

It's a very simple issue, really. Do Muslims have the Constitutional right to build an Islamic community center in New York City, yes or no? The First Amendment says yes. These bigots say no. Personally, I say the Constitution trumps the bigots. YMMV.

237

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:37:28pm

re: #222 Obdicut

And countdown to Brietbart concluding that he's a racist.

He's a union carpenter! Clearly a Democratic plant!!11ty

//Don't ask me what those people in their union steel worker costumes were.

238

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:37:41pm

Friend of mine made a "Mosque Bad! MKAY?" post on facebook. One of those "copy and paste this to your status" thingys.

He was torched with ten comments within five minutes about religious freedom, etc...

He's a friend, but not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

239

alexknyc Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:38:13pm

re: #237 Gus 802

He's a union carpenter! Clearly a Democratic plant!!11ty

//Don't ask me what those people in their union steel worker costumes were.

//

They were just there to sing YMCA
/

240

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:38:28pm

re: #235 elbruce

As I've heard it, the next closest mosque is at a four block distance from the WTC site.

That prayer space is also over-crowded from what I've heard about it.

241

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:38:36pm

People seek to deny Muslims property rights, and it's not about religion.

LOL.

Double fail.

242

zxbe Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:38:47pm

re: #228 JasonA

They could scratch the plan for the prayer space and nothing would change at this point. So, yeah, it's 100% because Muslims are behind it.

That would be a curious scenario to see play out. I think you'd be right. They (those against the project) treat this as an invasion.

243

captdiggs Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:39:30pm

re: #236 Lidane

It doesn't undercut the Constitutional argument at all.

It's a very simple issue, really. Do Muslims have the Constitutional right to build an Islamic community center in New York City, yes or no? The First Amendment says yes. These bigots say no. Personally, I say the Constitution trumps the bigots. YMMV.

Personally, I haven't heard or read one argument against, that relied on the Constitution or the explicit denial of any Constitutional rights.
It's all emotional.

244

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:39:35pm

re: #205 windsagio

OHHH I remember now, yeah I'm a dummy >>

heh...nice work there. i was trying to zoom through the thread and figured a sock popped up...nope. Just W, making work for the proprietor;)

245

alexknyc Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:39:39pm

re: #235 elbruce

As I've heard it, the next closest mosque is at a four block distance from the WTC site.

And yes, the Pentagon facility is shared between Muslims and other religions. As such, it can't count as a "mosque" because the definition of that involves being exclusively used for prayer.

As an aside, the prayer room in the Park51 facility is called a mosque by them, so we can't really say it's not one when they're calling it one.

I would assume that a prayer room in an Islamic center would be solely a mosque.

Of course, you know what happens when you assume...

246

zxbe Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:40:15pm

re: #234 JasonA

Not while there are votes to be had.

And not while there's fear to be mongered.

247

windsagio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:40:19pm

re: #244 Aceofwhat?

Hey it gives my fans something to tlak about :)

248

Nimed Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:40:43pm

re: #115 reine.de.tout

Absolutely.

She's denying any connection whatsoever with this rally, and that small detail might be true.

And I say it's a small detail, because in the larger picture, what is also true, is that the anger of these people was carefully nurtured and stoked by her (and friends); she may have had nothing to do with this rally, but responsibility for it is directly on her shoulders.

I first saw this video a couple of years ago - I was immediately convinced she is a loon of the first order, and wants attention more than she wants to hold to any sort of principle.

Wow, that's a hell of a clip. Geller comes across as vapid, hypercaffeinated and crazy as a peach orchard boar.

249

AntonSirius Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:40:54pm

re: #67 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Where's ground zero?

Ground Zero is just a state of mind.

250

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:41:41pm

re: #239 alexknyc

Hey, all they needed was the Indian Chief! (There was a cop, construction hat guy and Confederate cowboy).

251

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:41:48pm

re: #249 AntonSirius

Ground Zero is just a state of mind.

It's where the first guy got AIDS.

Youtube Video

252

Lidane Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:42:11pm

re: #243 captdiggs

The only emotional arguments I've seen are from the bigots seeking to stop this project.

If we look strictly at the law, there's nothing to stop this project from going forward at all. The opposition stems entirely from the emotional exploitation of 9/11 and a bunch of irrational demagoguery about Muslims.

253

thelacritic Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:42:45pm

re: #138 Gus 802

You're forgetting a couple of things. For one, both Feisal Abdul Rauf and his wife, Daisy Kahn, are both American citizens. The other being that thing called the Patriot Act and the IRS which they have to file when doing the financial groundwork. It's not like they're going to freelance this whole operation like some mob outfit during the days of prohibition. Everything will be subject to public and governmental scrutiny.

I'm not implying these two are doing anything illegal. But if in fact this is a community center for New York Muslims is this money
being funded by New Yorkers? And if it's coming from elsewhere and it's an extraordinary amount of money, what is the sales pitch? Why is better to spend $100 million here for a 13 story building when you maybe could build 100 mosques or community centers throughout the US. So yes, I'm not ignoring the fact that some may see this "community center" as something more than a place for new stork Muslims to recreate. I haven't made up my mind on the efficacy of this community center and an tryin to look at all the facts available.

And I do note the sensitivity here. But sensitivity has two meanings. One, the proclivity to take offense, and the other the courtesy to avoid giving offense. If one is going to fault others for an excess of the former, it is usually not right to do so in a way that shows one's own deficiency of the latter.

254

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:43:57pm

re: #243 captdiggs

Personally, I haven't heard or read one argument against, that relied on the Constitution or the explicit denial of any Constitutional rights.
It's all emotional.

And that's the problem. To say that Rauf should be barred from building Park 51 on land he owns is to deprive him of both his right to property and his right to free exercise of religion.

255

Wozza Matter? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:44:25pm

re: #252 Lidane

The only emotional arguments I've seen are from the bigots seeking to stop this project.

If we look strictly at the law, there's nothing to stop this project from going forward at all. The opposition stems entirely from the emotional exploitation of 9/11 and a bunch of irrational demagoguery about Muslims.

Exactly - they want this stopped, full stop.

Three ways of doing it -
* inciting some NYC official to pull the plug on spurious grounds (where the constitution comes in)

* creating a shit storm so big the developers give up

* creating a shit storm so big no one will finance it for fear of backlash/boycott/being acorned.

256

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:45:17pm

re: #253 thelacritic

I see, your just concerned that the people that run the Cordoba Initiative are getting the most bang for their buck. Have you considered lending out your religious and real estate consulting services, or is this just a hobby of yours?

257

Nimed Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:45:25pm

re: #19 Cato the Elder

I can't understand a single word in that entire audio track, including whatever it is they're chanting.

But I detest any crowd of humans on the street that thinks it's got a collective mind.

The intonation was either "No mosque here!" or "No mosquitoes!". The latter was how it sounded to me at first, but it's possible I'm projecting (no window screens at my apartment, you see).

258

captdiggs Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:46:15pm

re: #252 Lidane

The only emotional arguments I've seen are from the bigots seeking to stop this project.

I saw an interview with an elderly woman who was holding a large framed photo of her son, a fireman who died on 9/11. She was against the location.
I don't think she was a "bigot".

259

deadletterboy Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:46:16pm

Well folks, I've got dinner to make, laundry to do, and I think I'll watch 'Harry Potter' as it's on television.
I tried to point out to Pam, over at that ridiculous 'news' site of her how hateful she was being, but surprise surprise my comment and the other dissenting opinion were promptly deleted.

260

deadletterboy Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:47:20pm

re: #259 deadletterboy

Wow. I can type. And use grammar. But you get the gist of what I was going for.

261

Nimed Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:47:31pm

re: #253 thelacritic

To hell with sensitivity. We were promised naked Muslims in the pool, this thing is going forward.

262

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:47:38pm

re: #253 thelacritic

Why is better to spend $100 million here for a 13 story building when you maybe could build 100 mosques or community centers throughout the US.

What the Hell business is it of yours? They're not spending your money, and provided the funding is not illegal and is not used for illegal acts or to promote hate or violence, its not our concern what they do with it. Please cease Concern Trolling, or else we will be forced to tenderize you with Clue Bats.

263

jaunte Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:48:02pm

re: #258 captdiggs

I saw an interview with an elderly woman who was holding a large framed photo of her son, a fireman who died on 9/11. She was against the location.
I don't think she was a "bigot".

She was simply failing to distinguish between American Muslims and terrorists.

264

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:48:33pm

re: #100 thelacritic

Does any know if there are any other $100 million Muslim community centers/Mosques in the United States? Is this a relatively normal size investment for this type of building? And if so, what other cities? Dearborn maybe?

Pardon me for beingre: #249 AntonSirius

~~Ground Zero is just a~~ I'm in a New York state of mind.

/Billy Joel

265

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:48:35pm

re: #201 Stanley Sea

Oh! But the New York Post (and Tradewind) said they only collected 250.00.

damn, I was fooled...again/

ahahah oh Tradewind, never met a fact she liked

266

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:49:35pm

re: #229 captdiggs

I'm not the one who said it wasn't a mosque.
Those who are saying that are the ones who undercut the entire Constitutional issue.
They can't have it both ways.

it's not entirely a mosque. part of it is slated to be a mosque.

so...yeah. they can have it both ways. and don't we want them to? if more mosques had community centers, maybe we wouldn't be such a bunch of paranoid asshats.

mosques which preach the sort of hate and anger we ought to fear are going to preach it, and we should point them out. mosques which aren't spreading that crappy message ought to be celebrated, especially if they include community-outreach activities.

a church with a playground is better than a church with no playground. same with a mosque.

267

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:49:46pm

re: #258 captdiggs

I saw an interview with an elderly woman who was holding a large framed photo of her son, a fireman who died on 9/11. She was against the location.
I don't think she was a "bigot".

no, she's likely not. But while she is free to speak, she does not have a veto over the construction of Park 51.

268

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:49:49pm

re: #253 thelacritic

I'm not implying these two are doing anything illegal. But if in fact this is a community center for New York Muslims is this money
being funded by New Yorkers? And if it's coming from elsewhere and it's an extraordinary amount of money, what is the sales pitch? Why is better to spend $100 million here for a 13 story building when you maybe could build 100 mosques or community centers throughout the US. So yes, I'm not ignoring the fact that some may see this "community center" as something more than a place for new stork Muslims to recreate. I haven't made up my mind on the efficacy of this community center and an tryin to look at all the facts available.

And I do note the sensitivity here. But sensitivity has two meanings. One, the proclivity to take offense, and the other the courtesy to avoid giving offense. If one is going to fault others for an excess of the former, it is usually not right to do so in a way that shows one's own deficiency of the latter.

This is a whole lot of saying nothing, and some real tortured grammar as well

Also, there's a lot of muslims in manhattan, maybe that's why they want to build it there

you know, for the muslims in manhattan.

269

Linden Arden Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:49:51pm

They should rename the project 'Whitewater' just to really piss Gingrich off.

270

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:50:16pm

re: #258 captdiggs

I saw an interview with an elderly woman who was holding a large framed photo of her son, a fireman who died on 9/11. She was against the location.
I don't think she was a "bigot".

No, but she's easily manipulated by bigots.

271

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:50:20pm

re: #253 thelacritic

Sorry, LA, I don't trust you are bona fide.

272

Wozza Matter? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:50:33pm

re: #258 captdiggs

I saw an interview with an elderly woman who was holding a large framed photo of her son, a fireman who died on 9/11. She was against the location.
I don't think she was a "bigot".

Your concern is noted.

But hurt feelings do not a zoning board decision make.

But first and foremost - ISLAM IS NOT A SINGULARITY!!!!!!!!

The people building the mosque did not kill her son. Why don't you spend your time tracking down that woman and explaining that to her - rather than bothering us?

273

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:51:01pm

Godwin calling...

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

274

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:51:07pm

re: #258 captdiggs

I saw an interview with an elderly woman who was holding a large framed photo of her son, a fireman who died on 9/11. She was against the location.
I don't think she was a "bigot".

If she's not a bigot, then she's having her memories of her dead son and the emotions tied with them exploited by bigots and xenophobes.

Different shit, same result...

275

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:51:30pm

If you are even showing up to this demonstration, congratulations, you just got punked by Geller

276

Obdicut Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:52:09pm

re: #274 talon_262

And another blue hardhat in that picture. Weird.

277

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:52:12pm

Walking While Looking Muslim.

A real "Lord of The Flies" moment.

Crimminy. Klan rallies are more civilized. If this was a "trap" or "plant", there is still no defense against this idiocy.

They'd have hung a Seik with his own intestines.

Good lord, what a pack of animals.

278

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:52:14pm

re: #258 captdiggs

Wonder if she has all the facts... or if she's only heard the bigot side.

279

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:52:21pm

re: #248 Nimed

Wow, that's a hell of a clip. Geller comes across as vapid, hypercaffeinated and crazy as a peach orchard boar.

so...she was being herself?

280

Wozza Matter? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:52:37pm

re: #274 talon_262

If she's not a bigot, then she's having her memories of her dead son and the emotions tied with them exploited by bigots and xenophobes.

Different shit, same result...

Exactly - the cause is being whipped up by bigots. Emotionally vulnerable people are being sucked in to a bigotted issue - as well as the terminally stoopid.

281

Sheila Broflovski Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:52:45pm

re: #266 Aceofwhat?

a church with a playground is better than a church with no playground. same with a mosque.

Well, I don't think a Catholic church should be built with a playground.

////////////

282

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:52:57pm

re: #274 talon_262

If she's not a bigot, then she's having her memories of her dead son and the emotions tied with them exploited by bigots and xenophobes.

Different shit, same result...

My grandmother used to get so riled up by every single news story about a missing white girl that CNN or Fox would beat on, it would just take her over, it was all she could talk about

So take that sort of energy, but instead of a CNN, it's a Geller or a Gingrich or a Spencer, and instead of some human interest story, it's othering the icky brown guys, and boom, there you are

283

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:53:15pm

Right. The protest was just about the insensitivity of putting Park51 near Ground Zero. It's not about Muslims and Islam...

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

Uh huh. Sure.

284

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:53:18pm

re: #273 Gus 802

Godwin calling...

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

Analogy FAIL. Islam is not monolithic and Imam Rauf is not a Wahabbi (which the hijackers were).

285

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:53:38pm

re: #259 deadletterboy

Well folks, I've got dinner to make, laundry to do, and I think I'll watch 'Harry Potter' as it's on television.
I tried to point out to Pam, over at that ridiculous 'news' site of her how hateful she was being, but surprise surprise my comment and the other dissenting opinion were promptly deleted.

i hear Mozart...oops, no, sorry...that's just a bunch of tiny violins. my mistake.

286

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:54:21pm

re: #277 swamprat

This sort of incitement is probably going to end in someone being killed by a mob, if it keeps up like this :/

287

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:54:26pm

re: #258 captdiggs

I saw an interview with an elderly woman who was holding a large framed photo of her son, a fireman who died on 9/11. She was against the location.
I don't think she was a "bigot".

Niether do I. But she has walked into their den.

288

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:55:19pm

re: #281 Alouette

Well, I don't think a Catholic church should be built with a playground.

///

Damn you, Alouette. I struggled for minutes with those words, staring at me in the preview box, so very very tempted to press "post." But no. I had to think better of it.

Point goes to you.

289

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:55:23pm

re: #259 deadletterboy

Well folks, I've got dinner to make, laundry to do, and I think I'll watch 'Harry Potter' as it's on television.
I tried to point out to Pam, over at that ridiculous 'news' site of her how hateful she was being, but surprise surprise my comment and the other dissenting opinion were promptly deleted.

Her hate is not a bug, it's a feature

it's 100% intentional

She's sort of an internet Father Coughlin

290

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:56:14pm

re: #283 Gus 802

Maybe she's banging Newt.

291

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:56:20pm

re: #253 thelacritic

I'm not implying these two are doing anything illegal. But if in fact this is a community center for New York Muslims is this money
being funded by New Yorkers? So yes, I'm not ignoring the fact that some may see this "community center" as something more than a place for new stork Muslims to recreate. I haven't made up my mind on the efficacy of this community center and an tryin to look at all the facts available.

And I do note the sensitivity here. But sensitivity has two meanings. One, the proclivity to take offense, and the other the courtesy to avoid giving offense. If one is going to fault others for an excess of the former, it is usually not right to do so in a way that shows one's own deficiency of the latter.

Here's the thing:

You say you haven't made up your mind on the efficacy of this community center.

But in the first place, unless you have money invested in this project, the efficacy of it is something you need not be concerned about in any way.

In the second place, all of your questions are coming across as if you HAVE made a decision whether or not this project should be opposed, and the types of questions you're asking are those asked by people who are opposed to it.

So I sort of think you've made up your mind, even though you say otherwise.
Now, as to this:

And if it's coming from elsewhere and it's an extraordinary amount of money, what is the sales pitch? Why is better to spend $100 million here for a 13 story building when you maybe could build 100 mosques or community centers throughout the US.

That's a very large sum of money to me, and maybe to you. It is not a large sum of money to spend in NYC on a project such as this one. So it doesn't appear that an "extraordinary" amount of money is being spent here, rather, what's being spent is what one might expect to have to spend in NYC on this sort of project.

And as to whether it's better to spend it here or there or wherever - when the Catholic Church builds a church and a school, do you ask the Church to justify spending it here instead of there? If not, why are you asking this question about this project?

292

William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:56:21pm

re: #262 Dark_Falcon

Please cease Concern Trolling, or else we will be forced to tenderize you with Clue Bats.

Quoted for truth & humor :D

293

Killgore Trout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:56:28pm

re: #283 Gus 802

Muslims Raus!

294

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:56:33pm

re: #253 thelacritic

Why is better to spend $100 million here for a 13 story building when you maybe could build 100 mosques or community centers throughout the US.

Wait...so...your complaint is that it's an unwise expense on their part?

So then...wouldn't the anti-Muslim sentiment naturally be to support this mosque so that they spend their money unwisely???

295

Mr. Crankypants Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:56:45pm

evening all

296

Lidane Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:56:46pm

re: #280 wozzablog

Exactly - the cause is being whipped up by bigots. Emotionally vulnerable people are being sucked in to a bigotted issue - as well as the terminally stoopid.

Yeah, this.

Even if the useful idiots and rubes who show up to these rallies aren't bigots themselves, but rather people who are being emotionally manipulated, that's still just as bad. They're giving the bigots legitimacy and cover. They're letting their memories of their loved ones be used this way by people who just hate all Muslims and don't distinguish between the assholes who flew the planes into the WTC and everyday American Muslims. That's wrong. Period.

297

thelacritic Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:56:59pm

re: #211 karmic_inquisitor

Whenever I debate someone, I like to bring up facts by asking questions. I once debated a Frenchman over agricultural subsidies.

My opening statement?

"Why do French cheeses smell so much? Is it because the French are smelly people? Is that why Frenchmen wear white socks with dark shoes? So that when someone says 'You smell like old socks - are you carrying cheese in them?' he can respond - 'Desole - I wear zee white socks stupeed. Eet cannot be me' ? Do French people think they can get away with that? Is that the sort of thinking that goes into their agricultural policies?"

So my questions were insulting? I don see that. Asking the relative size of this community center I think is relevant and wondered if anyone knew. Where did I use derogatory language. Is a "troll" someone that's not 100% in agreement with everyone here and not engaging in as hominem attacks of those they disagree with?

298

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:57:05pm

re: #281 Alouette

Well, I don't think a Catholic church should be built with a playground.

///

that was awesome

299

Nimed Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:57:11pm

re: #279 Aceofwhat?

so...she was being herself?

Heh. I don't know if she is able to consistently pull off the trifecta.

300

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:57:25pm

re: #280 wozzablog

Exactly - the cause is being whipped up by bigots. Emotionally vulnerable people are being sucked in to a bigotted issue - as well as the terminally stoopid.

And that's what the bigots are playing on...exploiting emotional vulnerabilities, ignorance, and prejudices to make this whole Cordoba House/Park51 business (and the reputation of Iman Rauf) something it's not.

Bunch of dickheads...

301

captdiggs Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:57:43pm

re: #272 wozzablog

Your concern is noted.

But hurt feelings do not a zoning board decision make.

But first and foremost - ISLAM IS NOT A SINGULARITY!!!

The people building the mosque did not kill her son. Why don't you spend your time tracking down that woman and explaining that to her - rather than bothering us?

If you want singularity of thought you can turn off the computer and dwell on your own thoughts.
The exchange of different ideas is the hallmark of a free society. Yet, you apparently find free speech to be an intolerable burden.

Too bad.

302

Daniel Ballard Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:57:53pm

re: #253 thelacritic

Dead red herring

303

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:57:53pm

re: #229 captdiggs

I'm not the one who said it wasn't a mosque.
Those who are saying that are the ones who undercut the entire Constitutional issue.
They can't have it both ways.

really, so a building can't be dual purpose? You can't have a mosque inside of a building that also has a fuckton of other facilities in it?

If there's a church in an airport, it's a church, but is the airport now a church?

If there's a church inside a shopping mall, is the mall now a church?

English is hard!

304

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:57:59pm

re: #281 Alouette

Well, I don't think a Catholic church should be built with a playground.

///

They aren't.
The playgrounds are built as part of the school attached to the church.
heheheh.

305

Mr. Crankypants Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:58:34pm

re: #290 Jeff In Ohio

Maybe she's banging Newt.

Get out the Brain Bleach!

306

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:58:43pm

re: #301 captdiggs

If you want singularity of thought you can turn off the computer and dwell on your own thoughts.
The exchange of different ideas is the hallmark of a free society. Yet, you apparently find free speech to be an intolerable burden.

Too bad.

hahaha and now we play the martyr card!

If you say a dumb thing, expect to be challenged. Nobody's censoring you, man

307

AntonSirius Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:58:52pm

re: #253 thelacritic

Three suggestions to make Manhattan a more sensitive place.

308

karmic_inquisitor Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:59:16pm

re: #297 thelacritic

So my questions were insulting?

To the extent that one asserts that questions are facts they are insulting. Insulting to most people's intelligence.

309

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:59:25pm

re: #307 AntonSirius

bwah!

No use of the numbers 9 or 11 in Lower Manhattan.

310

Daniel Ballard Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:59:32pm

re: #304 reine.de.tout

They aren't.
The playgrounds are built as part of the school attached to the church.
heheheh.

Pssst, Mr Stewart, Catholic churches have schools with real schoolyards already built in...

311

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:59:44pm

re: #296 Lidane

Yeah, this.

Even if the useful idiots and rubes who show up to these rallies aren't bigots themselves, but rather people who are being emotionally manipulated, that's still just as bad. They're giving the bigots legitimacy and cover. They're letting their memories of their loved ones be used this way by people who just hate all Muslims and don't distinguish between the assholes who flew the planes into the WTC and everyday American Muslims. That's wrong. Period.

^ this x 1000...

312

Wozza Matter? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:00:04pm

re: #301 captdiggs

If you want singularity of thought you can turn off the computer and dwell on your own thoughts.
The exchange of different ideas is the hallmark of a free society. Yet, you apparently find free speech to be an intolerable burden.

Too bad.

I chose to use my free speech.

You chose to use yours - i believe yours could be put to more efficient use, but thats what open forums are for.

313

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:00:11pm

re: #297 thelacritic

So my questions were insulting? I don see that. Asking the relative size of this community center I think is relevant and wondered if anyone knew. Where did I use derogatory language. Is a "troll" someone that's not 100% in agreement with everyone here and not engaging in as hominem attacks of those they disagree with?

And we got another martyr card!

What, are they giving them out in Happy Meals now?

314

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:00:20pm

This reminds me of the Tea Party protests.

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

Same age group too.

315

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:00:21pm

re: #293 Killgore Trout

Muslims Raus!

Good language use. This sort of protest mob's words sound best in the original German.

316

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:00:32pm

re: #253 thelacritic

Why is better to spend $100 million here for a 13 story building when you maybe could build 100 mosques or community centers throughout the US.

Where in these United States, pray, can you acquire the land, get the permits, and pay for the building of anything bigger than a one-room schoolhouse for under a million dollars? The meanest mini-McMansion costs more than that.

Concern troll.

317

Lidane Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:00:41pm

re: #303 WindUpBird

If there's a church inside a shopping mall, is the mall now a church?

Heh. I've actually been to church in a mall. Many years ago, there was a Catholic parish in a mall near my grandmother's house. It was convenient as anything-- you could go to Mass, get dinner at one of the nearby restaurants, and go shopping all on the same trip.

They're no longer in the mall, since they got some land years ago and built a physical parish, but I'll never forget that experience. I thought it was interesting.

318

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:00:44pm

re: #297 thelacritic

So my questions were insulting? I don see that. Asking the relative size of this community center I think is relevant and wondered if anyone knew. Where did I use derogatory language. Is a "troll" someone that's not 100% in agreement with everyone here and not engaging in as hominem attacks of those they disagree with?

no, 'troll' is someone concernedly asking concerned questions which have been answered here, with concern, approximately 735.43 times prior to your concerned concern.

the search function is no friend to the troll. so naturally, we smell troll. fortunately, with some lye, peroxide and discretion you can wash the smell of troll and whine away and actually contribute something to the discussion.

319

recusancy Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:00:45pm

re: #301 captdiggs

If you want singularity of thought you can turn off the computer and dwell on your own thoughts.
The exchange of different ideas is the hallmark of a free society. Yet, you apparently find free speech to be an intolerable burden.

Too bad.

It's not an "exchange of different ideas". It's hate speech. Yes, it's legal and free in this country, but don't try to sugar coat what it is.

320

captdiggs Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:01:24pm

re: #306 WindUpBird

hahaha and now we play the martyr card!

If you say a dumb thing, expect to be challenged. Nobody's censoring you, man

You should consider anger management.
Saying the woman is not a bigot is not "stupid", except to someone consumed by their own belief in their absolute superiority.

321

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:01:29pm

re: #253 thelacritic

I'm not implying these two are doing anything illegal. But if in fact this is a community center for New York Muslims is this money
being funded by New Yorkers? And if it's coming from elsewhere and it's an extraordinary amount of money, what is the sales pitch?

Christian churches are constantly raising money to build missions and churches halfway around the world. Shall we impose a rule that says that all money for religious structures must be raised only locally?

re: #253 thelacritic

And I do note the sensitivity here. But sensitivity has two meanings. One, the proclivity to take offense, and the other the courtesy to avoid giving offense. If one is going to fault others for an excess of the former, it is usually not right to do so in a way that shows one's own deficiency of the latter.

I find your post to be grossly offensive, and demand that you retract it. If you believe what you just said, then you must do so immediately.

The people taking offense are hardly showing a shred of "sensitivity" of any kind.

322

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:01:32pm

re: #297 thelacritic

So my questions were insulting? I don see that. Asking the relative size of this community center I think is relevant and wondered if anyone knew. Where did I use derogatory language. Is a "troll" someone that's not 100% in agreement with everyone here and not engaging in as hominem attacks of those they disagree with?

You see - we've heard that before.
Usually coming from someone who is being, shall we say, less than honest in their attempts to engage in conversation here.

Rather than asking questions all the time, it might be more practical if you told us where you stand on this project; and then we can discuss the pros and cons of why it should or should not be supported or opposed.

323

Mr. Crankypants Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:01:56pm

Hey Jason...send me an email let me know who you are in DDO so I can add you to my list on DDO..

324

sagehen Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:02:15pm

re: #112 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I wonder what St. Patrick's would go for. Cathedral of St. John the Divine. Riverside.

2 bedroom apartments in St Pat's neighborhood, 1500 square feet, are $3-4 million.

325

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:02:33pm

re: #317 Lidane

Heh. I've actually been to church in a mall. Many years ago, there was a Catholic parish in a mall near my grandmother's house. It was convenient as anything-- you could go to Mass, get dinner at one of the nearby restaurants, and go shopping all on the same trip.

They're no longer in the mall, since they got some land years ago and built a physical parish, but I'll never forget that experience. I thought it was interesting.

The weirdest thing in a mall in Portland is probably the DMV office at Lloyd Center. Just sitting right there! No lines either!

326

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:02:35pm

re: #297 thelacritic

I've seen this dumb meme before. Save us all some irritation and just flounce already.

327

Wozza Matter? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:02:44pm

re: #312 wozzablog

I chose to use my free speech.

You chose to use yours - i believe yours could be put to more efficient use, but thats what open forums are for.

Oh, and if you think i want this place to be an echo chamber? - no, been there done that, i just want you to stop being a concern trolling tool of a movement founded by bigots and run for the benefit of the easily impressed upon.

I guess there we must differ.

Hurt feelings in extraction are more important than an outreach effort designed to quell those self same hurt feelings.

Gotcha, good.

328

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:02:50pm

re: #320 captdiggs

You should consider anger management.
Saying the woman is not a bigot is not "stupid", except to someone consumed by their own belief in their absolute superiority.

You're mistaking contempt for anger. :)

329

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:03:05pm

re: #313 WindUpBird

And we got another martyr card!

What, are they giving them out in Happy Meals now?

Happy Meals are sooo 20th century...they send martyr e-cookies out in text messages.

330

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:03:31pm

re: #303 WindUpBird

really, so a building can't be dual purpose? You can't have a mosque inside of a building that also has a fuckton of other facilities in it?

If there's a church in an airport, it's a church, but is the airport now a church?

If there's a church inside a shopping mall, is the mall now a church?

English is hard!

As far as I know, there are Islamic prayer rooms in many airports.

Airports! That's where it all started! Shut them all down, right now.

331

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:04:44pm

This picture captures the entire debate, IMO.

332

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:04:47pm

re: #323 PT Barnum

Hey Jason...send me an email let me know who you are in DDO so I can add you to my list on DDO..

Will do.

333

Mr. Crankypants Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:05:02pm

re: #330 Cato the Elder

As far as I know, there are Islamic prayer rooms in many airports.

Airports! That's where it all started! Shut them all down, right now.

Overgeneralization is the first refuge of the bigoted and is in fact required. However, one's own group isn't included. Some Muslims are terrorists so all must be. Some Christians are terrorists (think abortion clinic bombings) but they're an aberration.

334

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:05:35pm

Does anybody remember EVER someone who came into LGF and played "devil's advocate" on their first post who wasn't a troll?

335

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:05:37pm

Does everyone realize that there are young Muslim US citizens who are approaching their teens who weren't even born when 9/11 happened?

Are they to be forever "accountable", and required to issue "disclaimers", and account for how their places of prayer are paid for?

336

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:05:39pm

re: #320 captdiggs

You should consider anger management.
Saying the woman is not a bigot is not "stupid", except to someone consumed by their own belief in their absolute superiority.

and yes, I do believe that my understanding of this issue is absolutely superior to an elderly woman who's holding up a sign about her dead son. i'd bet both my car titles on it.

Emotion, versus reason.

Emotion

and reason.

data and objective analysis and understanding the neighborhood's needs and understanding the constitution isn't conditional,versus grief and manipulation.

You're not going to pull this 9/11 heartstrings shit on me. That is over.

337

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:05:41pm

re: #333 PT Barnum

Overgeneralization is the first refuge of the bigoted and is in fact required. However, one's own group isn't included. Some Muslims are terrorists so all must be. Some Christians are terrorists (think abortion clinic bombings) but they're an aberration.

DING DING DING...we have a winnah!!!

338

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:05:55pm

re: #334 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Does anybody remember EVER someone who came into LGF and played "devil's advocate" on their first post who wasn't a troll?

No.

339

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:06:06pm

Yep. Here you go. No mosque... in Brooklyn even.

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

340

CuriousLurker Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:06:13pm

re: #245 alexknyc

I would assume that a prayer room in an Islamic center would be solely a mosque.

Of course, you know what happens when you assume...

A musalla is a temporary place where people congregate to perform prayers when there is no dedicated masjid (mosque) available, whereas a masjid is a permanent place that built by a community with the intention of it being there long term to serve the community (for the daily congregational prayers, Friday sermons, weddings, celebrations, etc.)

So the "prayer space" at the Pentagon is basically a musalla, whereas the "prayer space" at Park51 would be a masjid.

341

SpaceJesus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:06:16pm

re: #320 captdiggs

You should consider anger management.
Saying the woman is not a bigot is not "stupid", except to someone consumed by their own belief in their absolute superiority.

how is she not a bigot

342

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:06:21pm

re: #334 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Does anybody remember EVER someone who came into LGF and played "devil's advocate" on their first post who wasn't a troll?

Good call!

343

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:07:11pm

re: #334 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Does anybody remember EVER someone who came into LGF and played "devil's advocate" on their first post who wasn't a troll?

Well Cognito wasn't a troll and he didn't that. But he got banned too, for his asshole baiting of Charles.

344

SpaceJesus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:07:18pm

re: #334 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Does anybody remember EVER someone who came into LGF and played "devil's advocate" on their first post who wasn't a troll?

345

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:07:25pm

re: #341 SpaceJesus

how is she not a bigot

I guess if you have an emotional reason to be a bigot, the definition of bigot changes?

But that pretty much includes everyone, so I guess captdiggs has now removed the word "bigot" from our lexicon

346

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:07:41pm

re: #340 CuriousLurker

A musalla is a temporary place where people congregate to perform prayers when there is no dedicated masjid (mosque) available, whereas a masjid is a permanent place that built by a community with the intention of it being there long term to serve the community (for the daily congregational prayers, Friday sermons, weddings, celebrations, etc.)

So the "prayer space" at the Pentagon is basically a musalla, whereas the "prayer space" at Park51 would be a masjid.

Thank you for that clarification.

347

Mr. Crankypants Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:07:44pm

I'm just asking! - Glenn Beck (WPOS)

348

captdiggs Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:07:58pm

re: #336 WindUpBird

and yes, I do believe that my understanding of this issue is absolutely superior

I never doubted that at all. In fact, that was largely my point.

349

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:08:22pm

re: #334 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Does anybody remember EVER someone who came into LGF and played "devil's advocate" on their first post who wasn't a troll?

I came back to LGF in 2008 and played devil's advocate for Obama and I got treated like a troll. So yes, it is possible.

ElBruce started off on the wrong foot, and I don't believe he's a troll.

But the concerny concern from this person has me thinking that the rule may not have that many exceptions.

350

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:08:44pm

I think the devil has more than enough advocates running around these days. Many of them showed up at this "rally."

351

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:08:45pm

re: #339 Gus 802

Yep. Here you go. No mosque... in Brooklyn even.

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

Pam might have done us a service in convincing the bigots to break their cover.

352

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:08:45pm

re: #340 CuriousLurker

A musalla is a temporary place where people congregate to perform prayers when there is no dedicated masjid (mosque) available, whereas a masjid is a permanent place that built by a community with the intention of it being there long term to serve the community (for the daily congregational prayers, Friday sermons, weddings, celebrations, etc.)

So the "prayer space" at the Pentagon is basically a musalla, whereas the "prayer space" at Park51 would be a masjid.

Props to one of our resident Muslim Lizards...

/watches thelacritic and captdiggs heads explode...

353

sagehen Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:08:50pm

re: #126 HoosierHoops

They built a 1.7 Billion dollar stadium in New Jersey to worship the God's of Football.. nobody blinked an eye...

Citibank paid $200 million just to have their *name and logo* on the Mets' new stadium.

354

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:09:18pm

Has anyone read the Park 51 website? It's really good. I'm looking to make my donation though, and can't find the "donate" button. It must be on another website - if anyone can direct me.

[Link: www.park51.org...]

355

Daniel Ballard Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:09:40pm

How long has it been since we hard a new objection to the mosque @ Burlington? Seems like since about the first ten minutes of this whole thing. I am getting fatigued with the same old same old against.

356

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:10:47pm

re: #344 SpaceJesus

re: #334 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Does anybody remember EVER someone who came into LGF (not counting SpaceJesus) and played "devil's advocate" on their first post who wasn't a troll?

357

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:10:53pm

re: #354 Stanley Sea

Has anyone read the Park 51 website? It's really good. I'm looking to make my donation though, and can't find the "donate" button. It must be on another website - if anyone can direct me.

[Link: www.park51.org...]

Try asking them through the contact form.

358

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:11:02pm

re: #341 SpaceJesus

how is she not a bigot

I think her motives are not bigoted, and I'm not really prepared to hang the label of bigot on someone heartbroken over the loss of her son. She gets a pass this time. If she keeps it up and starts lying like Cindy Sheehan did, then it'll be a different story.

359

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:11:12pm

re: #349 Cato the Elder

ElBruce started off on the wrong foot

This may be the kindest understatement I've seen since the city of Hiroshima thanked us for those free X-ray exams.

360

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:11:22pm

re: #348 captdiggs

I never doubted that at all. In fact, that was largely my point.

I would like to know how this woman ceases to become a bigot.

The definition doesn't change on account of 9/11.

361

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:11:27pm

This conflicts me. Because I absolutely agree that these people have the right to air their gievances and voice their disagreement. I also question the "taste" of building this thing. And I chaff about soft-pedaling the fact it is a mosque, even though it has load of bells and whistles. (still a mosque). This "freedom of speech" thing is good, and though the owners have a right to build (because they are owners, not because they are oppressed, or disenfranchised, or any of that unmitigated mush) ...anyway their "right to build" does not nullify others' "rights to oppose" that building.

But holy cow! This crowd against it are weapons-grade bigots.

362

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:12:19pm

re: #354 Stanley Sea

Has anyone read the Park 51 website? It's really good. I'm looking to make my donation though, and can't find the "donate" button. It must be on another website - if anyone can direct me.

[Link: www.park51.org...]

[Link: www.cordobainitiative.org...]

363

captdiggs Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:13:21pm

re: #352 talon_262

captdiggs heads explode...

Sorry, I don't get that worked up over message boards.

364

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:13:30pm

Sattv? Are you getting your jollies on the fact that this is happening in the North?

I kind of am!

365

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:13:59pm

re: #358 Dark_Falcon

I think her motives are not bigoted, and I'm not really prepared to hang the label of bigot on someone heartbroken over the loss of her son. She gets a pass this time. If she keeps it up and starts lying like Cindy Sheehan did, then it'll be a different story.

Agreed...she might not be a bigot, but her emotions are being played with and manipilated by bigots and xenophobes. How she goes from here is on her...

366

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:14:05pm

re: #361 swamprat

Examine your feelings on the matter and please explain why you question the taste.

367

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:14:11pm

re: #334 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Does anybody remember EVER someone who came into LGF and played "devil's advocate" on their first post who wasn't a troll?

i don't know if it was my very first post, but i felt that Lindzen was being dismissed too easily on the subject of AGW, which was definitely advocating for the devil.

however, i worked hard to be exceedingly polite and when Charles posted a bunch of links for me, i shut up and read them.

i think your rule of thumb has relatively few exceptions, though, especially if the advocate is also being a dick.

368

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:14:12pm

re: #344 SpaceJesus

hi

You are just a tame troll. Sorry. Have a biscuit.

369

Daniel Ballard Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:14:25pm

re: #340 CuriousLurker

A musalla is a temporary place where people congregate to perform prayers when there is no dedicated masjid (mosque) available, whereas a masjid is a permanent place that built by a community with the intention of it being there long term to serve the community (for the daily congregational prayers, Friday sermons, weddings, celebrations, etc.)

So the "prayer space" at the Pentagon is basically a musalla, whereas the "prayer space" at Park51 would be a masjid.

re: #346 reine.de.tout

Now the bigots will learn what else to object to. That would be a bigots idea of "nuance".

370

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:14:31pm

I'm beginning to get a small hint, just a whiff of a hint, that perhaps thelacritic is merely toying with us.

Comes in, drops a post full of odd questions, and leaves.

Comes back, doesn't respond to all responses, just a few, like he/she isn't really interested in the discussion, but just dropping in and out as its convenient.

Says he/she hasn't decided about this, but the questions sure sound like they are opposed to this money being spent.

Is anyone else getting that feeling?

371

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:14:31pm

re: #363 captdiggs

Sorry, I don't get that worked up over message boards.

Could have fooled me...

372

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:14:39pm

re: #365 talon_262

Agreed...she might not be a bigot, but her emotions are being played with and manipilated by bigots and xenophobes. How she goes from here is on her...

Quite Concur.

373

Killgore Trout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:14:39pm

re: #335 reine.de.tout

Does everyone realize that there are young Muslim US citizens who are approaching their teens who weren't even born when 9/11 happened?

Are they to be forever "accountable", and required to issue "disclaimers", and account for how their places of prayer are paid for?

good point. I just found this video of a middle aged woman with an American flag umbrella berating a 10 year old Muslim boy.
Rallies over mosque near ground zero get heated

Youtube Video

374

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:15:19pm

re: #358 Dark_Falcon

I think her motives are not bigoted, and I'm not really prepared to hang the label of bigot on someone heartbroken over the loss of her son. She gets a pass this time. If she keeps it up and starts lying like Cindy Sheehan did, then it'll be a different story.

If you are holding a billion people responsible for the actions of 19 people, you're a bigot. Now, i understand why she thinks this, she's probably been fed the line that a lot of these people are fed. I can SYMPATHIZE with how someone would believe this, if they're uninformed and surrounded my people who have all the talking points close at hand, all the slick news shows on Fox, all the well produced talk radio, all the various avenues.

But here's the thing, there's white supremacists who probably got fed similar lines, who in their minds have reasons every bit as valid as that woman to believe what they believe.

Nobody said critical thinking was easy, or that looking past your grief and understanding that a billion people are not to blame for what 19 people did.

375

ProGunLiberal Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:15:55pm

re: #359 elbruce

That has got to be the most impressive euphemism I've ever heard.

Anyway, I was wondering how to donate to Park51. I'm a college student with no credit card, so the normal way is out. I do really want to help these guys out.

re: #373 Killgore Trout

That woman is a monstrous excuse or a human being. I hope the little boy got a hug later.

376

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:16:20pm

re: #345 WindUpBird

I guess if you have an emotional reason to be a bigot, the definition of bigot changes?

But that pretty much includes everyone, so I guess captdiggs has now removed the word "bigot" from our lexicon

perhaps it's gentler to say that with enough trauma, we all eventually adopt emotional positions?

377

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:16:49pm

re: #358 Dark_Falcon

I think her motives are not bigoted, and I'm not really prepared to hang the label of bigot on someone heartbroken over the loss of her son. She gets a pass this time. If she keeps it up and starts lying like Cindy Sheehan did, then it'll be a different story.

I agree, DF, on this particular story, from the info we had, it's not possible to say yea or nay on the bigotry.

All we know from that story is that the lady is opposed to the project. That's it.

378

ProGunLiberal Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:17:18pm

re: #375 ProLifeLiberal

re: #373 Killgore Trout

That woman is a monstrous excuse of a human being. I hope the little boy got a hug later.

Sorry about that. I have a huge issue with making typos.

379

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:17:26pm

re: #376 Aceofwhat?

perhaps it's gentler to say that with enough trauma, we all eventually adopt emotional positions?

Sure!

380

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:17:54pm

re: #344 SpaceJesus

hi

well, in fairness, you are a troll. fortunately, you make a damn good mascot.

381

Mr. Crankypants Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:18:24pm

I'm off to kill something. Have a good night everybody.

382

Killgore Trout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:18:29pm

re: #378 ProLifeLiberal

I like how she's screaming at him "Where is your compassion!?"
I think that sums it pretty nicely.

383

Wozza Matter? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:18:51pm

re: #380 Aceofwhat?

well, in fairness, you are a troll. fortunately, you make a damn good mascot.

upding for providing the chuckle i've needed :)

384

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:19:12pm

re: #364 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sattv? Are you getting your jollies on the fact that this is happening in the North?

I kind of am!

aahaaahaaa...

385

sagehen Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:19:12pm

re: #170 thelacritic

$100 million is "doodleysquat" especially in this current economy? I see the size of investment relative to other Islamic mosques. Why is it so important to build it there, even if they are 100% entitled to build it there especially if it's a sizable amount of money. I'd like to think there are a lot better ways to put $100 million towards. Why is this building especially before the controversy? Maybe it is a way to bring the Muslim community closer into mainstream culture. But if dimwit is spending an extraordinary amount of money it stands to reason there must also be an extraordinary reason. You can infer good or bad from that. I asked a question to bring more facts into the debate and you suddenly get offended about trolls and sock puppets. Why so sensitive?

You do realize that NYC is a large, densely-populated place? That hundreds of thousands of people live within 1/2 a mile of this site, and more than a million commuters work within that radius.

If 1/10 of 1% of those people are observant muslims, they'll more than fill the prayer space at every single service.

386

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:19:17pm

re: #361 swamprat

I also question the "taste" of building this thing. And I chaff about soft-pedaling the fact it is a mosque, even though it has load of bells and whistles. (still a mosque).

Vision Statement:

Park51 will be dedicated to pluralism, service, arts and culture, education and empowerment, appreciation for our city and a deep respect for our planet. Park51 will join New York to the world, offering a welcoming community center with multiple points of entry.
With world-class facilities, a global scope and strong local roots, Park 51 will offer a friendly and accessible platform for conversations across our identities.

Mission Statement:

New York deserves its reputation as a peerless center of arts, culture and ideas. Park51 honors and furthers that tradition, envisioning a community center for all of us, bringing the best of the world to New York City, and New York City’s energy, diversity and aspirations to the world. Park51 will become a model for future institutions, with its inclusive focus, outstanding facilities and dedication to social needs. To realize this mission, Park51 will:
Uphold respect for the diversity of expression and ideas between all people

Cultivate and embrace neighborly relations between all New Yorkers, fostering a spirit of civic participation and an awareness of common needs and opportunities

Encourage open discussion and dialogue on issues of relevance to New Yorkers, Americans and the international reality of our interconnected planet

Revive the historic Muslim tradition of education, engagement and service, becoming a resource for empowerment and advancement

Connect New York’s communities to global ideas and trends

Commit to social justice, dignified human development and spiritual growth for all
Pursue the development of American Muslim identities, engaging New York’s many and diverse Muslim communities and promoting empowerment and compassion for all

Build partnerships and relationships with key actors and institutions who share our values, to address shared needs and solve common problems

Establish a state-of-the-art green facility that will serve as a model and inspiration for sustainable space, helping to advance sustainable living in urban contexts

Empower our communities with the skills and knowledge they need to advance in their various life stages

Provide financial assistance for those in need, offering subsidies for our programming and scholarships to reach new audiences and further our vision

Frankly, if we'd had some more of that before 9/11 happened, it might have helped to prevent it from happening. In the long run, Park51 is going to do more to help prevent terrorism than any amount of sign-waving bigots.

Sounds like good taste to me.

387

Wozza Matter? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:19:18pm

re: #381 PT Barnum

I'm off to kill something. Have a good night everybody.

something or someone?

388

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:19:27pm

re: #331 elbruce

This picture captures the entire debate, IMO.

The "I bomb NY" topiary is the best!

389

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:19:37pm

re: #377 reine.de.tout

I agree, DF, on this particular story, from the info we had, it's not possible to say yea or nay on the bigotry.

All we know from that story is that the lady is opposed to the project. That's it.

Well, the 9/11 sign leads me to believe that it has to do with the hijackers being the same religion as the people building the facility, and she's equating terrorists with peaceful people of a religion who want to build a mosque in their own neighborhood. I'm assuming, but I think it's a safe assumption

390

Mr. Crankypants Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:19:51pm

re: #387 wozzablog

something or someone?

Goin' off to play my MMO

391

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:20:00pm

re: #375 ProLifeLiberal

That has got to be the most impressive euphemism I've ever heard.

Anyway, I was wondering how to donate to Park51. I'm a college student with no credit card, so the normal way is out. I do really want to help these guys out.

re: #373 Killgore Trout

That woman is a monstrous excuse or a human being. I hope the little boy got a hug later.

Get their mailing address and send them a check/money order.

392

ProGunLiberal Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:20:04pm

re: #382 Killgore Trout

I couldn't watch the video. The hate against Muslims makes me ill.

393

karmic_inquisitor Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:20:33pm

Who knew 9/11 would turn us into Serbia?

394

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:20:33pm

re: #385 sagehen

You do realize that NYC is a large, densely-populated place? That hundreds of thousands of people live within 1/2 a mile of this site, and more than a million commuters work within that radius.

If 1/10 of 1% of those people are observant muslims, they'll more than fill the prayer space at every single service.

This

This forever

395

Wozza Matter? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:20:43pm

re: #390 PT Barnum

Goin' off to play my MMO

:-)

good stuff.

carry on that man.

396

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:20:48pm

re: #375 ProLifeLiberal

Anyway, I was wondering how to donate to Park51. I'm a college student with no credit card, so the normal way is out. I do really want to help these guys out.

You can donate to the Cordoba Initiative, if not Park51 specifically. I gave the link in post #362

397

jaunte Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:21:25pm

re: #373 Killgore Trout

Funny how many people are claiming 'it's not a freedom of religion issue'.
It clearly is a struggle between feelings on one hand and freedoms on another.

398

Mr. Crankypants Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:21:33pm

re: #395 wozzablog

:-)

good stuff.

carry on that man.

If you're interested in that sort of thing, drop me a line (via my nick) as we are working to form a LGF only guild somewhere.

399

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:21:53pm

re: #396 elbruce

You can donate to the Cordoba Initiative, if not Park51 specifically. I gave the link in post #362

The Cordoba Initiative does sorta sound like a Ludlum novel

400

Mr. Crankypants Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:22:07pm

re: #397 jaunte

Funny how many people are claiming 'it's not a freedom of religion issue'.
It clearly is a struggle between feelings on one hand and freedoms on another.

It's my freedom to prevent you from practicing your evil religion.

/////

401

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:22:16pm

re: #389 WindUpBird

Well, the 9/11 sign leads me to believe that it has to do with the hijackers being the same religion as the people building the facility, and she's equating terrorists with peaceful people of a religion who want to build a mosque in their own neighborhood. I'm assuming, but I think it's a safe assumption

It may be.
All I know is that one time, my kid was sick and I thought she might die.
And I knew that I would lose my mind if that happened.

402

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:23:04pm

re: #382 Killgore Trout

I like how she's screaming at him "Where is your compassion!?"
I think that sums it pretty nicely.

Her rage-fit is a classic case of projection and of hate taking over the brain. What is the purpose of screaming at a child like that, other than hate-spewing? The only results it achieves are to traumatize the child and make you look like a bigoted asshole.

403

Wozza Matter? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:23:20pm

re: #398 PT Barnum

If you're interested in that sort of thing, drop me a line (via my nick) as we are working to form a LGF only guild somewhere.

It's not really my cup of char, but have fun.

Just making sure you weren't gonna jump in a helicopter and shoot a bullmoose or modern whig or something :p

404

SpaceJesus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:24:09pm

re: #380 Aceofwhat?

ok, but i only troll bad people

405

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:24:22pm

re: #401 reine.de.tout

It may be.
All I know is that one time, my kid was sick and I thought she might die.
And I knew that I would lose my mind if that happened.

Lord, there is nothing like the feeling that you might lose a child. Had a scare when my first was a baby...it's impossible to convey how much worse that feeling was than anything i've ever felt before or since.

406

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:24:31pm

re: #362 elbruce

[Link: www.cordobainitiative.org...]

THANK YOU.

407

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:24:46pm

re: #399 WindUpBird

The Cordoba Initiative does sorta sound like a Ludlum novel

Cordoba Initiative = Dharma Initiative? Hrmmm.

Maybe the bigots, xenophobes, and the ignorant are afraid of the Smoke Monster....yeah, that's it!

///

408

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:24:57pm

Mosque at Ground Zero: That's Bullshit

Youtube Video

Try it. You'll like it. That's Sam Seder.

409

Escaped Hillbilly Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:25:00pm

Is it their right to build the mosque, or religious center, anywhere they can buy the land and that is zoned for such things? Yes. Does it make sense to build it in the neighborhood where such a huge tragedy occurred and about which so much emotion is stirred? No. Do people have the right to voice their dissatisfaction with this situation and try to sway others to their position even by peaceful demonstrations? Yes. Should they gather in large angry mobs to rant at people who have little to do with the matter as if it will change anyone's mind and use racially tainted arguments? No.
People are always confusing what is legal with what is moral, and what is permitted with what is encouraged.
I tried to make such a point on the Yahoo boards and got down dinged repeatedly...by both sides judging by the replies. Such emotional issues bring out the extremists who will not let you agree with them unless you tag your comments with hate speech and death threats. When will I learn?

410

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:25:18pm

re: #404 SpaceJesus

ok, but i only troll bad people

heh, sez the atheist/

411

Wozza Matter? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:26:01pm

re: #404 SpaceJesus

ok, but i only troll bad people

i have a list if you take commissions......... and the bridges i provide to lurk under come with all mod cons

412

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:26:28pm

re: #401 reine.de.tout

It may be.
All I know is that one time, my kid was sick and I thought she might die.
And I knew that I would lose my mind if that happened.

That's why she gets a pass from being called a bigot. The grief from losing a child is incalculable and I'm not going to label someone suffering that kind of pain.

413

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:26:43pm

re: #401 reine.de.tout

It may be.
All I know is that one time, my kid was sick and I thought she might die.
And I knew that I would lose my mind if that happened.

It's like, I can totally see how someone can feel that way if their child was killed. I totally sympathize. They're vulnerable. I just don't want to sugarcoat what the ramifications of that are. Because it's these people, people who are grieving, hurting, who are being used as pawns and cover for the political machine

414

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:27:02pm

re: #409 Escaped Hillbilly

Such emotional issues bring out the extremists who will not let you agree with them unless you tag your comments with hate speech and death threats. When will I learn?

I don't know...but i'm fighting the urge to downding in response to the annoying self-interrogation rhetorical device...

415

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:27:39pm

re: #405 Aceofwhat?

Lord, there is nothing like the feeling that you might lose a child. Had a scare when my first was a baby...it's impossible to convey how much worse that feeling was than anything i've ever felt before or since.

Absolutely impossible to describe the horror - and you don't really understand it, unless you've got kids. Well, I know I couldn't fully comprehend it 'til I had my own.

416

Wozza Matter? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:28:08pm

re: #414 Aceofwhat?

I don't know...but i'm fighting the urge to downding in response to the annoying self-interrogation rhetorical device...

//

ditto...............

The internet is no place for self-introspection. Save it for myspace.

417

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:28:24pm

re: #399 WindUpBird

The Cordoba Initiative does sorta sound like a Ludlum novel

A fine Corinthian Leather bound book...

418

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:28:41pm

re: #409 Escaped Hillbilly

Is it their right to build the mosque, or religious center, anywhere they can buy the land and that is zoned for such things? Yes. Does it make sense to build it in the neighborhood where such a huge tragedy occurred and about which so much emotion is stirred? No. Do people have the right to voice their dissatisfaction with this situation and try to sway others to their position even by peaceful demonstrations? Yes. Should they gather in large angry mobs to rant at people who have little to do with the matter as if it will change anyone's mind and use racially tainted arguments? No.
People are always confusing what is legal with what is moral, and what is permitted with what is encouraged.
I tried to make such a point on the Yahoo boards and got down dinged repeatedly...by both sides judging by the replies. Such emotional issues bring out the extremists who will not let you agree with them unless you tag your comments with hate speech and death threats. When will I learn?

In many cases you're dealing with monomaniac haters. You either agree that Park 51 is a "terror memorial" or you are a "Totalitarian Progressive".

419

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:28:56pm

re: #413 WindUpBird

It's like, I can totally see how someone can feel that way if their child was killed. I totally sympathize. They're vulnerable. I just don't want to sugarcoat what the ramifications of that are. Because it's these people, people who are grieving, hurting, who are being used as pawns and cover for the political machine

Oh, yes, I agree, she's being used as a pawn.
And that is an evil that can be traced right back to Geller and her buddies, and their careful nurturing of this outrage.

420

jaunte Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:29:26pm

re: #399 WindUpBird

The Cordoba Initiative does sorta sound like a Ludlum novel

Wasn't Inigo Montoya in that?

421

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:29:28pm

re: #409 Escaped Hillbilly

Does it make sense to build it in the neighborhood where such a huge tragedy occurred and about which so much emotion is stirred? No.

I think building a center there that's designed to foster understanding and cooperation between Islam and the West makes a whole helluva lot of sense.

By the way, two blocks in lower Manhattan is a long ways away. There's a lot packed into every block there, it being one of the most densely populated and built-up areas in the world.

422

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:29:51pm

re: #412 Dark_Falcon

That's why she gets a pass from being called a bigot. The grief from losing a child is incalculable and I'm not going to label someone suffering that kind of pain.

Well, putting aside the label, she is exhibiting bigotry.

This woman isn't the problem, she's the human shield being manipulated by the machine. Like sage por swamp said, she's the cover that someone like Geller needs. You got a ton of Republicans and an increasing number of Democrats, all willing to pull the strings and antagonize and manipulate grieving people for votes. It's honestly pretty revolting

423

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:30:17pm

re: #413 WindUpBird

It's like, I can totally see how someone can feel that way if their child was killed. I totally sympathize. They're vulnerable. I just don't want to sugarcoat what the ramifications of that are. Because it's these people, people who are grieving, hurting, who are being used as pawns and cover for the political machine

Thats a very good, mature way to think about it, WUB.

424

reidr Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:30:19pm

re: #335 reine.de.tout

Does everyone realize that there are young Muslim US citizens who are approaching their teens who weren't even born when 9/11 happened?

Are they to be forever "accountable", and required to issue "disclaimers", and account for how their places of prayer are paid for?

Well, they do have the seed....
/

425

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:30:29pm

re: #420 jaunte

You killed my father, prepare to die.

426

SpaceJesus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:32:03pm

re: #411 wozzablog

oh been there done that. all of them.

427

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:32:09pm

re: #422 WindUpBird

Well, putting aside the label, she is exhibiting bigotry.

This woman isn't the problem, she's the human shield being manipulated by the machine. Like sage por swamp said, she's the cover that someone like Geller needs. You got a ton of Republicans and an increasing number of Democrats, all willing to pull the strings and antagonize and manipulate grieving people for votes. It's honestly pretty revolting

Yes, that is the result of her actions. And yes, she's the pawn that provides the cover Geller needs. And yes, it's revolting. Agree agree agree.
sheesh. How'd we get here?

428

Escaped Hillbilly Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:32:51pm

re: #414 Aceofwhat?
Don't care. This is the way my mind is working right now. It's called ambivalence, I think, maybe, I dunno. It feels like people just can't talk while disagreeing anymore. We have to accuse each other of all kinds of hateful things, assume motivations, and then refuse to listen to each other. The reasonable people who might agree with either side step out of the argument and the crazies run rampant. Every other post on Yahoo is either a rant against one of our presidents or a call for death or imprisonment of the people on the other side.

429

Kreuzueber Halbmond Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:34:03pm

re: #361 swamprat

This conflicts me. Because I absolutely agree that these people have the right to air their gievances and voice their disagreement. I also question the "taste" of building this thing. And I chaff about soft-pedaling the fact it is a mosque, even though it has load of bells and whistles. (still a mosque). This "freedom of speech" thing is good, and though the owners have a right to build (because they are owners, not because they are oppressed, or disenfranchised, or any of that unmitigated mush) ...anyway their "right to build" does not nullify others' "rights to oppose" that building.

But holy cow! This crowd against it are weapons-grade bigots.

Ever since 9/11, people have been screaming for "moderate Muslims" to come forward and renounce terrorism. Now some guy - A Muslim Imam - steps up and wants to preach peace and love for all humanity, and it's not good enough. These freaks are exposed for being what they always were - a xenophobic drag on our future.

430

sattv4u2 Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:34:04pm

re: #427 reine.de.tout

sheesh. How'd we get here?

I drove

Back roads till I hit Route 78

78 West till I get to Decatur. Side roads again till I get to the Emory area of Atlanta, then down the long driveway to work!

oh ,, wait !!

431

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:34:07pm

re: #366 JasonA

No need to examine and I have elaborated before. Some are offended. The initial response to the mosque was that the builders did not have the "right" to build. Now, of course, they say "Oh no! we never meant that! Well, they did. And they were wrong.
The "taste" aspect comes from how this will be, and is, being viewed and spun. If you cannot see it you are being willfully blind.

But the viewpoints of those who lost loved ones and see this as an encroachment, the viewpoints of people who claim to be heartsick, but are bigots following an agenda, the viewpoints of those who are making political hay out of this, the viewpoints of the other bigots who want this mosque to be a thumb in our eye....none of those matter, although each and every one should not have their voice stilled.
The owners should be allowed to build. They are the owners.
We have a guide when conflict exists. We wrote it down to keep our memory from giving us a tainted view of what was agreed upon. We are not required to have the correct opinion, or follow the meme-de-jour.

We have the Constitution.

432

Wayne A. Schneider Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:34:24pm

According to Robert Spencer (SIOA), because the Burlington Coat Factory building was struck by landing gear from one of the planes, it counts as part of "Ground Zero". Personally, I don't buy this nonsense. But this is their justification for claiming that the mosque (which they won't admit isn't just a mosque) is being built on Ground Zero itself.

433

Wozza Matter? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:34:36pm

re: #428 Escaped Hillbilly

Don't care. This is the way my mind is working right now. It's called ambivalence, I think, maybe, I dunno. It feels like people just can't talk while disagreeing anymore. We have to accuse each other of all kinds of hateful things, assume motivations, and then refuse to listen to each other. The reasonable people who might agree with either side step out of the argument and the crazies run rampant. Every other post on Yahoo is either a rant against one of our presidents or a call for death or imprisonment of the people on the other side.

repeat after me -

and this is why we don't visit other online forums............

434

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:34:47pm

re: #375 ProLifeLiberal

That has got to be the most impressive euphemism I've ever heard.

Anyway, I was wondering how to donate to Park51. I'm a college student with no credit card, so the normal way is out. I do really want to help these guys out.

re: #373 Killgore Trout

That woman is a monstrous excuse or a human being. I hope the little boy got a hug later.

Not "or" or "of". The preposition you want there is "for".

435

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:36:21pm

re: #409 Escaped Hillbilly

Hillbilly, the problem is that this has gotten way out of hand. Earlier I could just roll my eyes at someone who disliked it and just go about my business, but now we have an atmosphere of hate and contempt for anything Islamic. The slander thrown at this Imam has been mind-boggling.

This has gone too far.

436

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:36:22pm

re: #428 Escaped Hillbilly

Don't care. This is the way my mind is working right now. It's called ambivalence, I think, maybe, I dunno. It feels like people just can't talk while disagreeing anymore. We have to accuse each other of all kinds of hateful things, assume motivations, and then refuse to listen to each other. The reasonable people who might agree with either side step out of the argument and the crazies run rampant. Every other post on Yahoo is either a rant against one of our presidents or a call for death or imprisonment of the people on the other side.

sarc tags. i used them for a reason...

437

jaunte Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:36:30pm

Another Islamic center was built in downtown Houston, Texas in 2002.
No uproar, even though is was 2002! and Texas!

Houston National Bank remained in the building at 212 Main until 1964 when it merged with Tennessee Bank and Trust Co. and moved to the Tenneco Building on Milam. The Downtown Bank moved into the Main Street building, restored the interior and renamed the institution Franklin Bank. In March 1975, however, the Franklin Bank went into receivership and the building became vacant. For almost 20 years, it remained unused. In 1994 Houston Rockets basketball star, Hakeem Olajawon purchased the building and made plans to turn it into an Islamic center.

After years of extensive renovation (which maintained most of the original features), the center opened in 2002. It is now used as an Islamic mosque and educational center named Islamic Da’wah Center. The vast banking hall has been converted into the center’s main prayer hall, which can easily accommodate 1,200 people for prayers. In the basement level are a gathering area, meeting rooms, classrooms, a guest suite, offices, a recreational facility, a kitchen and a library of Islamic literature. The Da’wah Center hopes one day to install a gallery of Islamic architecture on the mezzanine circling the main floor.[Link: houston.bizjournals.com...]

Olajuwon Mega-mosque!

438

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:36:55pm

re: #428 Escaped Hillbilly
Take off your coat. Sit a spell. Rest.

439

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:37:04pm

These protestors remind me of this Boondocks scene. At least, they're pretty much trying to do the same thing:

Youtube Video

440

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:37:37pm

re: #423 Dark_Falcon

Thats a very good, mature way to think about it, WUB.

Of course, to me, not surprising at all.

441

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:38:08pm

re: #428 Escaped Hillbilly

Don't care. This is the way my mind is working right now. It's called ambivalence, I think, maybe, I dunno. It feels like people just can't talk while disagreeing anymore. We have to accuse each other of all kinds of hateful things, assume motivations, and then refuse to listen to each other. The reasonable people who might agree with either side step out of the argument and the crazies run rampant. Every other post on Yahoo is either a rant against one of our presidents or a call for death or imprisonment of the people on the other side.

Without proper moderation, a comment section is soon taken over by haters. They rant and scream, which drives the reasonable people away. Call it Conquest's Law applied to comments:

Any Comment section lacking strong moderation will ultimately by dominated by haters.

442

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:38:09pm

re: #436 Aceofwhat?

sarc tags. i used them for a reason...

You don't need them anymore. Free yourself from your sarc shackles.

443

Lidane Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:38:50pm

re: #437 jaunte

Don't forget-- we had a white guy from Texas as President back then. Many of the same assholes protesting Park51 now wouldn't have made a peep about that center, just for that reason alone.

444

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:39:37pm

re: #442 JasonA

You don't need them anymore. Free yourself from your sarc shackles.

apparently i do...Hillbilly thought that i was serious, judging by their response!

445

Escaped Hillbilly Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:39:48pm

re: #421 elbruce

Ok, so you have a reasonable reason to think that and can discuss it. I would agree except it completely ignores the feelings of a huge population of people who are going to act on those feelings. Most religions would choose to avoid that kind of conflict. Not saying they have to. Of course they can build there if they like. But it is not really in their best interest and stirs up hateful and painful feelings. Since that is not their stated intention, they should consider building elsewhere, esp. since this is not a local mosque intended to be used only by the congregation but a large cultural center a lot of Muslims should be expected to have free access to. Seems silly to insist it be there. Now of course, people are going to want to dig in their heels and say they should build there to prove a point to the bigots. And the extremists win again. Compromise would serve both sides well but it won't happen because the crazies have made this a cause.

446

jaunte Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:39:53pm

re: #443 Lidane

True, I do think the difference is all in the background political agitation.

447

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:40:12pm

re: #386 elbruce

Vision Statement:

Mission Statement:

Frankly, if we'd had some more of that before 9/11 happened, it might have helped to prevent it from happening. In the long run, Park51 is going to do more to help prevent terrorism than any amount of sign-waving bigots.

Sounds like good taste to me.

That part sounds a bit starry-eyed to me. Having a mosque on every block would hardly do anything to stop the people who actually do want to kill us, and who will eventually slip through the cracks and kill us again.

448

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:41:00pm

re: #428 Escaped Hillbilly

Don't care. This is the way my mind is working right now. It's called ambivalence, I think, maybe, I dunno. It feels like people just can't talk while disagreeing anymore. We have to accuse each other of all kinds of hateful things, assume motivations, and then refuse to listen to each other. The reasonable people who might agree with either side step out of the argument and the crazies run rampant.

It seems perfectly reasonable to me to be justiably angry in the face of intolerance, bigotry, and frothing-at-the-mouth hatred, especially when those same people are calling themselves American patriots. If that doesn't make you angry, fine. Stay out of it if you want But to suggest that my anger over their behavior is somehow unjustified amounts to giving those bigots cover to act with impunity.

449

Escaped Hillbilly Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:41:09pm

re: #433 wozzablog

I...ok. Sorry.

450

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:41:20pm

re: #407 talon_262

Cordoba Initiative = Dharma Initiative? Hrmmm.

Maybe the bigots, xenophobes, and the ignorant are afraid of the Smoke Monster...yeah, that's it!

///

Solution? Move the island.

451

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:41:22pm

re: #431 swamprat

The "taste" aspect comes from how this will be, and is, being viewed and spun. If you cannot see it you are being willfully blind.

Willfully blind? No. I just clearly see Muslims in every day life being as American as everyone else. I'm not the blind man in this case. For one to think it's in bad taste means that they somehow hold the religion of Islam and all of its adherents responsible for the tragedy. You're smart enough to know that that's not true.

452

Wozza Matter? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:41:39pm

good night everybody, well, most everybody

453

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:41:55pm

re: #444 Aceofwhat?

apparently i do...Hillbilly thought that i was serious, judging by their response!

But what good are they if they don't work?

454

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:42:25pm

re: #453 JasonA

But what good are they if they don't work?

oh. right. excellent point, there.

455

lawhawk Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:42:28pm

re: #432 Wayne A. Schneider

Nearly every building in a 1/4 mile radius from Ground Zero was hit with debris or damaged in the attacks. Some were far more seriously damaged than that. Heck, pretty much every building in Lower Manhattan required decontamination because of damage from the attacks (dust and debris flung into the air and onto every surface throughout Lower Manhattan).

It is an excuse. It so happens that it's about the only excuse that I think holds any water - and it isn't much.

456

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:43:02pm

re: #445 Escaped Hillbilly

Ok, so you have a reasonable reason to think that and can discuss it. I would agree except it completely ignores the feelings of a huge population of people who are going to act on those feelings. Most religions would choose to avoid that kind of conflict. Not saying they have to. Of course they can build there if they like. But it is not really in their best interest and stirs up hateful and painful feelings. Since that is not their stated intention, they should consider building elsewhere, esp. since this is not a local mosque intended to be used only by the congregation but a large cultural center a lot of Muslims should be expected to have free access to. Seems silly to insist it be there. Now of course, people are going to want to dig in their heels and say they should build there to prove a point to the bigots. And the extremists win again. Compromise would serve both sides well but it won't happen because the crazies have made this a cause.

Bottom line.. It's hard to compromise after your bought the freaking property and passed all the local boards.

Compromise to the feelings of some? They own the property. It's approved.

457

HappyWarrior Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:43:18pm

I'm so sick of shitheads like this thinking they can push people around because they look different and then their defenders in the media act like bigotry isn't a problem in this country. What does it mean to "look Muslim" anyhow.

458

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:43:25pm

re: #446 jaunte

True, I do think the difference is all in the background political agitation.

A lot has changed over the past 8 years especially with regards to the internet and the spreading of hysteria, fear and misinformation. Add to that is the current influx of the far-right. I see it as a combination of reasons. The new expanded internet mediums, atavistic political groups, Obama and President Bush who was able to corral many people who would have otherwise gone over the top. So it would be "all of the above."

459

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:43:50pm

@#$%#@$^ Ginn, you have to make that catch. Yes, it was a bad throw. Suck it up, man.

460

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:44:18pm

re: #413 WindUpBird

It's like, I can totally see how someone can feel that way if their child was killed. I totally sympathize. They're vulnerable. I just don't want to sugarcoat what the ramifications of that are. Because it's these people, people who are grieving, hurting, who are being used as pawns and cover for the political machine

We've seen it many times, with this subject and others and even with fellow Lizards....if one doesn't keep a check on their emotions (such as hate and grief), it can override their ability to reason and, ultimately, consume them.

461

ProGunLiberal Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:44:27pm

re: #434 Cato the Elder

Thank you for pointing that out Cato.

re: #455 lawhawk

The excuse holds a thimble-ful of water. Not enough to help a dehydrated man.

Why do these people seem to forget that at least 60 Muslims died that day along with everyone else?

462

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:45:21pm

re: #445 Escaped Hillbilly

Ok, so you have a reasonable reason to think that and can discuss it. I would agree except it completely ignores the feelings of a huge population of people who are going to act on those feelings. Most religions would choose to avoid that kind of conflict. Not saying they have to. Of course they can build there if they like. But it is not really in their best interest and stirs up hateful and painful feelings. Since that is not their stated intention, they should consider building elsewhere, esp. since this is not a local mosque intended to be used only by the congregation but a large cultural center a lot of Muslims should be expected to have free access to. Seems silly to insist it be there. Now of course, people are going to want to dig in their heels and say they should build there to prove a point to the bigots. And the extremists win again. Compromise would serve both sides well but it won't happen because the crazies have made this a cause.

That's how it works with issues that become part of the Culture War. Compromise becomes impossible because to compromise is to cede ground to an opposition you've labeled the Band of the Damned. You're about the crazies: Their overheated words and actions polarize the debate and make compromise impossible.

463

lawhawk Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:45:47pm

re: #461 ProLifeLiberal

Because of the 19 Islamists who murdered nearly 3,000 total, with the intent to kill 50,000.

464

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:46:06pm

re: #445 Escaped Hillbilly

I would agree except it completely ignores the feelings of a huge population of people who are going to act on those feelings.

A "huge population?" Hardly. It's a few actual bigots driving a herd of confused and underinformed people ahead of them. The truth will win out, but it's going to take time.

I find the feelings of bigots to be completely worth ignoring.

re: #445 Escaped Hillbilly

Since that is not their stated intention, they should consider building elsewhere, esp. since this is not a local mosque intended to be used only by the congregation but a large cultural center a lot of Muslims should be expected to have free access to. Seems silly to insist it be there.

Except for how they've spent years negotiating the sale and leasing of the land, going through various permit and approval processes, etc. only at the last minute to have you come by and tell them to start over somewhere else because the people who hate them are "sensitive."

re: #445 Escaped Hillbilly

Now of course, people are going to want to dig in their heels and say they should build there to prove a point to the bigots. And the extremists win again.

Nope. Quietly continuing with the center as planned and ignoring all of the bigots is a perfectly non-extremist thing to do.

465

Varek Raith Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:46:23pm

I am seriously disappointed in many, many Americans over this community center "issue".

466

SpaceJesus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:46:31pm

re: #457 HappyWarrior

i wonder if these same asshats would try to attack my israeli buddy who served in the IDF who looks straight up arab because he is of yemeni decent. shit, i don't even have to wonder if they would, i know they would.

this is xenophobia, plain and simple. fuck these people.

467

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:46:39pm

OT, I'm making my masterpiece: Beer butt chicken.

468

steve_davis Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:46:52pm

re: #29 Cato the Elder

If these people represent the best of America, than Jeremiah Wright was right.

Sadly, Jeremiah Wright was right about lots of stuff. Really, one of the only things he said that just pissed me off was the thing about how white people and black people have different rhythms. Though then again, my last group did used to have to put up a large sign that said, "Please do not attempt to clap in time with the music." We would be 6/8 and middle-aged white people would start slow-clapping in 4/4. They'd start to get the vague sense that something was wrong, but then the times would converge for a moment, and they'd be off again in 4/4. Wright's only error was thinking that this was race-based. It's probably more that white people tend to go to churches where the music is traditional, and black people may well have more experience with syncopated rhythms.

469

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:47:02pm

I GOT IT! How about if we move Ground Zero somewhere else? That'll solve everything!!!

470

dmon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:47:18pm

So what exactly is the proper distance for a Islamic community center from the WTC site?....... 3 blocks?, 4 blocks?, 8 miles, 3 counties?, next state? different continent?........ if this thing had been planned 6 blocks away the wingnuts would have been in the same uproar......... this is just a wedge issue being used a few months befor an election, and they should be ashamed.

471

Varek Raith Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:47:54pm

re: #469 elbruce

I GOT IT! How about if we move Ground Zero somewhere else? That'll solve everything!!!

There are only two ground zeroes in my mind. Two.
And they aren't in America.

472

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:48:07pm

re: #467 Stanley Sea

OT, I'm making my masterpiece: Beer butt chicken.

i made my masterpiece tonight...rotisserie chicken from Publix.

(what can i say...the kids love it)

473

sattv4u2 Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:48:12pm

re: #459 Aceofwhat?

@#$%#@$^ Ginn, you have to make that catch. Yes, it was a bad throw. Suck it up, man.

What had he done in Miami that made you think he'd do any different for the 49ers??

474

Sheila Broflovski Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:48:23pm

re: #441 Dark_Falcon

Without proper moderation, a comment section is soon taken over by haters. They rant and scream, which drives the reasonable people away. Call it Conquest's Law applied to comments:

Any Comment section lacking strong moderation will ultimately by dominated by haters.

Until the spammers drive away the haters.

475

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:48:35pm

re: #467 Stanley Sea

OT, I'm making my masterpiece: Beer butt chicken.

Oh, and I donated to the Cordoba Initiative.

So, when I run for public office, the RWingers can bring this up and TAKE ME DOWN.

476

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:49:06pm

re: #469 elbruce

I GOT IT! How about if we move Ground Zero somewhere else? That'll solve everything!!!

OK First let's look at the wingnut's map of Ground Zero.

477

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:49:31pm

Bully: Hey kid, give me your lunch money!

Kid: No. You don't have the right to demand that.

Escaped Hillbilly: Tell you what, let's compromise. In the spirit of sensitivity, why don't you give the bully your lunch money, and we'll say it's even, OK? You wouldn't want to be called an extremist, would you?

478

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:50:09pm

Ginn! There you go, buddy. Damn that guy is fast.

479

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:50:12pm

re: #476 Gus 802

OK First let's look at the wingnut's map of Ground Zero.

/

I suppose they could reach out to a lot more Americans if they put it in Cancun.

480

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:50:25pm

re: #472 Aceofwhat?

i made my masterpiece tonight...rotisserie chicken from Publix.

(what can i say...the kids love it)

Easy as hell, but I tell you mine is looking really really good.

Had to wait till the sun left the deck, can't cook in this horrible heat. Nothing compared to you other folks, but I'm dying here in SoCal.

481

sattv4u2 Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:51:05pm

And on that note, the long quiet drive home awaits

482

Escaped Hillbilly Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:51:11pm

re: #448 elbruce

I don't want to stay out of it obviously. I just want everyone to calm the heck down and stop assuming those who disagree with them are either bigots or terrorists.
Now my personal view is that it was foolish to choose to put a peace related Muslim community center in that particular location or insist on keeping it there when it hasn't even broken ground yet. But you are free to argue they should. I can even understand why when you take the time to express it rationally.

483

Lidane Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:51:32pm

re: #470 dmon

So what exactly is the proper distance for a Islamic community center from the WTC site?

If the bigots get their way? Mars. Maybe. And that's only if we put it on an area of Mars that doesn't directly face the WTC at any point during either planet's rotation.

484

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:51:34pm

re: #480 Stanley Sea

Easy as hell, but I tell you mine is looking really really good.

Had to wait till the sun left the deck, can't cook in this horrible heat. Nothing compared to you other folks, but I'm dying here in SoCal.

heh. it was 95 with 65% humidity today...don't you miss Florida;)

485

abolitionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:51:41pm

re: #469 elbruce

I GOT IT! How about if we move Ground Zero somewhere else? That'll solve everything!!!

That was done, I thought. Lots of dump truck runs daily, for several months.

486

Kreuzueber Halbmond Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:51:47pm

re: #466 SpaceJesus

this is xenophobia, plain and simple. fuck these people.

this is xenophobia, plain and simple. fuck xenophobia and pray for these people.

/comment Jesusfied

487

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:52:59pm

re: #486 Kreuzueber Halbmond

this is xenophobia, plain and simple. fuck xenophobia and pray for these people.

/comment Jesusfied

heh...actually, that's not half bad!

488

Varek Raith Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:53:00pm

re: #483 Lidane

If the bigots get their way? Mars. Maybe. And that's only if we put it on an area of Mars that doesn't directly face the WTC at any point during either planet's rotation.

And turn Olympus Mons into the solar system's largest minaret?!?!
IDON'TTHINKSO!

489

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:53:47pm

re: #482 Escaped Hillbilly

I don't want to stay out of it obviously. I just want everyone to calm the heck down and stop assuming those who disagree with them are either bigots or terrorists.
Now my personal view is that it was foolish to choose to put a peace related Muslim community center in that particular location or insist on keeping it there when it hasn't even broken ground yet. But you are free to argue they should. I can even understand why when you take the time to express it rationally.

When the entire anti-mosque movement is run by professional bigots, I think it is safe to assume that anyone who signs on to that movement is either a bigot or an idiot. Or both.

Or maybe they're just trying to meet eligible singles. That could be the case, too.

490

HappyWarrior Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:53:53pm

re: #466 SpaceJesus

i wonder if these same asshats would try to attack my israeli buddy who served in the IDF who looks straight up arab because he is of yemeni decent. shit, i don't even have to wonder if they would, i know they would.

this is xenophobia, plain and simple. fuck these people.

Yep, I really have little doubt that they would. These people seem hellbent on attacking people who look different from them. And it is xenophobia pure and simple. I'm sick of being called a liberal hysteric everytime I bring up that a lot of this crap is motivated by xenophobia and bigotry. If they don't wanna be called bigots, simple message, stop acting like bigoted assholes.

491

webevintage Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:53:55pm

re: #445 Escaped Hillbilly

Ok, so you have a reasonable reason to think that and can discuss it. I would agree except it completely ignores the feelings of a huge population of people who are going to act on those feelings. Most religions would choose to avoid that kind of conflict. Not saying they have to. Of course they can build there if they like. But it is not really in their best interest and stirs up hateful and painful feelings. Since that is not their stated intention, they should consider building elsewhere, esp. since this is not a local mosque intended to be used only by the congregation but a large cultural center a lot of Muslims should be expected to have free access to. Seems silly to insist it be there. Now of course, people are going to want to dig in their heels and say they should build there to prove a point to the bigots. And the extremists win again. Compromise would serve both sides well but it won't happen because the crazies have made this a cause.

Sometimes you just have to tell people to fuck off and keep doing what you are doing.
There is no compromise in the face of bigotry and hate.
Plus is there another empty lot in lower Manhattan (?) that will serve the specific needs of the population.
So far people who live there (Muslims and non-Muslims alike) seem to want the Community Center with a Mosque to be built.

492

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:54:52pm

re: #488 Varek Raith

And turn Olympus Mons into the solar system's largest minaret?!?!
IDON'TTHINKSO!

Stop the Islamization of Mars!!11ty

SIOM

493

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:55:23pm

re: #482 Escaped Hillbilly

Now my personal view is that it was foolish to choose to put a peace related Muslim community center in that particular location...

Well, my personal view is the exact opposite. So we're even.

494

Escaped Hillbilly Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:55:24pm

re: #456 Stanley Sea
Yeah, Walmart said the same thing when they built on the sight of a Civil War Cemetary. There are all kinds of possible compromises. I don't know what the answer would be if anybody bothered to try cause they won't anyway. Now days, people think screaming and flaming each other on message boards and being featured on Bill OReilly or some such passes for intelligent discussion.

495

Amory Blaine Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:55:29pm

FREEDOM CONES!!!!!!

496

Kreuzueber Halbmond Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:55:31pm

re: #487 Aceofwhat?

Well, somebody said play nice, it's Sunday.

497

Killgore Trout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:56:18pm

re: #397 jaunte

Funny how many people are claiming 'it's not a freedom of religion issue'.
It clearly is a struggle between feelings on one hand and freedoms on another.

Exactly. When they say it's not a freedom of religion issue it means they are just ignoring the freedom of religion issue. That doesn't make the issue disappear.

498

Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:56:32pm

None of us are as dangerous as all of us.

499

Dancing along the light of day Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:57:32pm

So, if I want off the "crazy train" where do I get off?
It's seeminglly endless.

500

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:57:36pm

re: #432 Wayne A. Schneider

According to Robert Spencer (SIOA), because the Burlington Coat Factory building was struck by landing gear from one of the planes, it counts as part of "Ground Zero". Personally, I don't buy this nonsense. But this is their justification for claiming that the mosque (which they won't admit isn't just a mosque) is being built on Ground Zero itself.

It's the ever-expanding Sacred Bubble of Ground Zero, which is absolutely sacrosanct...unless you count the fast-food joints, strip clubs, bars, and stores in the area. By their logic, most of lower Manhattan would be off limits to Cordoba House (and the mosques in the area that already exist and have for decades).

501

Escaped Hillbilly Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:58:34pm

re: #489 Cato the Elder
I don't the term "eligible" should really apply. I'm not one for signing on to "movements" of any kind. On the other hand, just cause their wrong don't make you right. (Meaning, not you specifically, but anyone.) They're idiots. But did the planners of this building not expect something like this?

502

Dancing along the light of day Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:58:35pm

re: #493 elbruce

Well, my personal view is the exact opposite. So we're even.

Hey, you've gotten up to positive Karma!
Congratulations.

503

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:58:43pm

re: #499 Floral Giraffe

So, if I want off the "crazy train" where do I get off?
It's seeminglly endless.

must...not...make...obvious...sexual...pun...*grits teeth*

(hi FG)

504

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:58:46pm

re: #456 Stanley Sea

Bottom line.. It's hard to compromise after your bought the freaking property and passed all the local boards.

Compromise to the feelings of some? They own the property. It's approved.

Period. Full Stop.

505

cliffster Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:59:21pm

It's bad luck to be superstitious

506

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:59:31pm

Hey, how did Republicans vote on health care for 9/11 first responders? I mean, since they care about 9/11 so much... Oh yeah. Funny how their "concern" seems to appear when it's time to scream at brown people and vanish when it's time to help our heroes.

507

Daniel Ballard Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:59:42pm

Just for perspective... Right out of the news
Calif lawmakers address WWII treatment of Italians

By ROBIN HINDERY
Associated Press Writer
Aug 20, 8:33 PM EDT
SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) -- California lawmakers have passed a resolution acknowledging an often-overlooked group - the thousands of Italian-Americans who were displaced, arrested and harassed during World War II.
The resolution, approved unanimously by both thee Senate and the Assembly this week, expresses regret for their treatment, calling it a "fundamental injustice."

According to the legislative analysis, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Executive Order 9066 in 1942 designated more than 100,000 Californians as aliens. Most were of Japanese descent, but at least 10,000 Italian-Americans were forced from their homes. Others had to carry identification cards, limit their travel and obey curfews.

"The treatment during World War II of people who were unjustly considered 'suspicious' because of their ethnic background was a sad chapter for our state," the resolution's author, state Sen. Joe Simitian, said in a statement Friday. "For survivors of that experience and their descendants, I hope this resolution will provide a long-due measure of recognition and respect."

508

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:59:49pm

re: #502 Floral Giraffe

Hey, you've gotten up to positive Karma!
Congratulations.

we had a very nice chat about some biblical items earlier. i think he's going to be fine, although he is a !#$!#@%$^$ lefty...

509

Dancing along the light of day Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:00:50pm

re: #508 Aceofwhat?

Off the intertubes, most of the day.
Thanks for the update!

510

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:00:58pm

re: #502 Floral Giraffe

Hey, you've gotten up to positive Karma!
Congratulations.

I'd say jump, but with you that would be risky. Jumping off a train can lead to a broken leg and that can kill a giraffe.

511

Daniel Ballard Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:01:45pm

re: #509 Floral Giraffe

HI Floral, how are ya?

512

lawhawk Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:01:50pm

re: #506 elbruce

Except that the Democrats also played politics by demanding a 2/3 vote because they were concerned that the GOP would tack items to the 9/11 bill if it was a basic majority vote.

It was politics all the way down - and even still the GOP looked worse for wear there.

513

cliffster Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:01:52pm

My wife put the cable on the Blues music station this evening. Playing some great stuff all night too.. elmore james, stevie ray, bb... makes me think of steve - hope he's coming around.

514

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:02:05pm

re: #484 Aceofwhat?

heh. it was 95 with 65% humidity today...don't you miss Florida;)

Not. Amazing how when I didn't know any better, it was normal.

Last time I visited was Dec., I died.

Of course all my Florida folks come out here whenever they can, so I don't need to go back as much.

515

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:02:59pm

re: #512 lawhawk

Except that the Democrats also played politics by demanding a 2/3 vote because they were concerned that the GOP would tack items to the 9/11 bill if it was a basic majority vote.

I can think of no reason why even 1/3 of Republicans should have voted against it. IMO, they could have set the bar at 99% and still had no excuse for it not passing.

516

Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:03:30pm

Old news, but:

Arlington mosque fears vandalism may be linked to Ground Zero plan

Hundreds of worshipers attend Friday prayers at the Dar El-Eman Islamic Center in south Arlington.
This past Friday, they were greeted by stick figure graffiti in the parking lot, depicting Uncle Sam sexually assaulting Allah.
Then early Sunday morning, someone torched the children's playground behind the mosque.

And of course, the comments are... something.

517

cliffster Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:03:37pm

re: #509 Floral Giraffe

Off the intertubes, most of the day.
Thanks for the update!

[looks to his left, then his right.. blushes]

er, hi FG

518

Escaped Hillbilly Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:03:38pm

re: #507 Rightwingconspirator
I had read quit a bit about WWII and the treatment of Japanese Americans but had not heard of Italian Americans being made to carry identity cards etc.

519

dmon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:04:07pm

re: #501 Escaped Hillbilly

But did the planners of this building not expect something like this?

No one had a problem with it 9 months ago when they anounced........ not one....hell the fox news anchor even told the Imams wife that she thought it was a good thing....of course the election wasn't 3 months away.

Them being American citizens, why would they have to have any concern whatsoever that they would have a segment of the people that objected to their practice of religion? I know I have never in my lifetime had to be concerned about being Catholic.

520

cliffster Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:04:55pm

re: #515 elbruce

I can think of no reason why even 1/3 of Republicans should have voted against it. IMO, they could have set the bar at 99% and still had no excuse for it not passing.

all political showboating, 100%. Shameful, really.

521

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:04:59pm

re: #501 Escaped Hillbilly

I don't the term "eligible" should really apply. I'm not one for signing on to "movements" of any kind. On the other hand, just cause their wrong don't make you right. (Meaning, not you specifically, but anyone.) They're idiots. But did the planners of this building not expect something like this?

Let's break that argument down:

1. They did not expect it, in which case they sadly overestimated their fellow Americans' actual commitment to the First Amendment;

or

2. they did expect it, in which case they're provocateurs;

or

3. they should have expected it, because in fact Americans are idiots, but they didn't expect it, so they're idiots too.

What is the point of arguing hypothetical motivations when what you're really trying to say is "bigots have feewings too, so they should win"?

522

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:05:20pm

re: #512 lawhawk

Except that the Democrats also played politics by demanding a 2/3 vote because they were concerned that the GOP would tack items to the 9/11 bill if it was a basic majority vote.

It was politics all the way down - and even still the GOP looked worse for wear there.

I don't see that as a good excuse for not voting for it.

523

webevintage Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:05:39pm

re: #501 Escaped Hillbilly

I don't the term "eligible" should really apply. I'm not one for signing on to "movements" of any kind. On the other hand, just cause their wrong don't make you right. (Meaning, not you specifically, but anyone.) They're idiots. But did the planners of this building not expect something like this?

Probably not.
Who would have a problem with a Community Center with a Mosque in it?
I have a feeling they had no idea that their project would be pick up by Geller and then moved along by FOXnews and the Tea Party and parts of the GOP.
Timeline:
[Link: www.salon.com...]

524

Lidane Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:05:57pm

Honestly, at this point I want to high five all the people leading the Park51 protest. However, I want to do it Jackass style:

Youtube Video

Heh.

525

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:06:52pm

re: #501 Escaped Hillbilly

I don't the term "eligible" should really apply. I'm not one for signing on to "movements" of any kind. On the other hand, just cause their wrong don't make you right. (Meaning, not you specifically, but anyone.) They're idiots. But did the planners of this building not expect something like this?

Did the planners expect this? I would think not. Per lawhawk:

re: #169 lawhawk

And as the NYT noted way back in November 2009, the group was already using the space as a prayer space overflow when they decided to announce their intentions to build a community center and mosque on the location.

Although, in flitting around the internet today, I noticed there are some bloggers who are trying to make a case that yes, the planners did indeed hope for and expect this sort of outcry, thinking it would play into their needs, for some reason that makes no sense except to the folks who came up with that theory.

526

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:07:08pm

re: #506 elbruce

Hey, how did Republicans vote on health care for 9/11 first responders? I mean, since they care about 9/11 so much... Oh yeah. Funny how their "concern" seems to appear when it's time to scream at brown people and vanish when it's time to help our heroes.

interesting. why did the democrats need a 2/3 majority to pass it?

527

Daniel Ballard Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:07:53pm

60 minutes is doing a big report on oil drilling by BP and the spill..

528

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:08:35pm

re: #520 cliffster

all political showboating, 100%. Shameful, really.

Look, the Dems used a procedure that would prevent letting the GOP "poison-pill" the legislation at the cost of needing more votes. But whether they did that or not, nobody had any business voting against it. The Republican response to that maneuver was to - as a caucus - oppose the legislation. But I think that Rep. Weiner summed it up quite nicely just after King announced the GOP would oppose it as a group, and just before the vote was taken:

Youtube Video

529

webevintage Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:08:54pm

re: #522 JasonA

I don't see that as a good excuse for not voting for it.

Me either.
The GOP can whine all they want about "procedure" but in the end they could have just voted for the damn bill.
And personally I think the Dems were right to want to pass it without bullshit amendments that would get rid of how the bill was paid for and deny funding to illegal immigrants who might have gotten ill while helping out at ground zero.
"Oh, thanks for the help...now fuck off"

530

freetoken Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:09:04pm

re: #525 reine.de.tout

..., I noticed there are some bloggers who are trying to make a case that yes, the planners did indeed hope for and expect this sort of outcry, thinking it would play into their needs, for some reason that makes no sense except to the folks who came up with that theory.

Sort of like in the VDH essay that was posted in the Pages a little while ago, eh?

531

Escaped Hillbilly Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:09:12pm

re: #516 negativ

Retards are taking over the world. No, that's not fair to retarded people. Stupid, stupid, stupid. When I first read your summation, I thought, "How do you draw a stick figure of Allah?" The video helped clarify. And now the crazies further pollute the atomosphere. This is a kid's playground people!

532

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:09:12pm

re: #515 elbruce

I can think of no reason why even 1/3 of Republicans should have voted against it. IMO, they could have set the bar at 99% and still had no excuse for it not passing.

because it's not actually blocking funding. that currently happens through this little thing called "appropriations". no first responder is going without healthcare. your concerned concern is noted/

533

lawhawk Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:09:19pm

re: #515 elbruce

The reason was simple politics - the Democrats played games. So did the GOP. Each was contesting a political point - and the rightness of their actions was quite besides the point.

Had the parties been able to set aside the politics - the bill would have been passed years ago.

534

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:09:27pm

re: #500 talon_262

It's the ever-expanding Sacred Bubble of Ground Zero, which is absolutely sacrosanct...unless you count the fast-food joints, strip clubs, bars, and stores in the area. By their logic, most of lower Manhattan would be off limits to Cordoba House (and the mosques in the area that already exist and have for decades).

In the end, our own fucking heads are ground zero. We all were affected. It's just how far away from rationality we are going to take it.

I laugh now at the old statement, we're not going to let the terrorists win!

535

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:09:37pm

re: #526 Aceofwhat?

interesting. why did the democrats need a 2/3 majority to pass it?

Because they didn't want to give the Republicans the opportunity to add things to it. Things like not allowing the benefits to go to illegal immigrants who responded.

536

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:10:00pm

re: #528 elbruce

Look, the Dems used a procedure that would prevent letting the GOP "poison-pill" the legislation at the cost of needing more votes. But whether they did that or not, nobody had any business voting against it. The Republican response to that maneuver was to - as a caucus - oppose the legislation. But I think that Rep. Weiner summed it up quite nicely just after King announced the GOP would oppose it as a group, and just before the vote was taken:

[Video]

i disagree. Weiner lived up to his name.

537

Dancing along the light of day Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:10:35pm

re: #511 Rightwingconspirator

HI Floral, how are ya?

Not a particularly good day, today.
But moving forward & looking to the future is all looking good.
Sometimes life is hard, you know...

How was the shooting?

538

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:10:45pm

re: #509 Floral Giraffe

Sorry about the bad joke.

539

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:10:53pm

re: #535 JasonA

Because they didn't want to give the Republicans the opportunity to add things to it. Things like not allowing the benefits to go to illegal immigrants who responded.

of which there are zero, AFAIK. good thing the democrats have the moral high ground on this one...

540

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:11:17pm

re: #530 freetoken

Sort of like in the VDH essay that was posted in the Pages a little while ago, eh?

I haven't yet seen that particular one.
Did he say that?
Please tell me VDH did not say that. Please.

541

Dancing along the light of day Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:11:34pm

re: #517 cliffster

[looks to his left, then his right.. blushes]

er, hi FG

*smooches*
In a loud & noisy way.
Because, I can!
LOL!

542

Varek Raith Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:11:53pm

re: #539 Aceofwhat?

of which there are zero, AFAIK. good thing the democrats have the moral high ground on this one...

...
Then why did the Rs want to add it???

543

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:12:30pm

re: #539 Aceofwhat?

of which there are zero, AFAIK.

Other people claim to know differently. *shrug*

544

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:12:39pm

re: #537 Floral Giraffe

Not a particularly good day, today.
But moving forward & looking to the future is all looking good.
Sometimes life is hard, you know...

How was the shooting?

The shooting?
Who shot who or what?

Sorry to hear you've had a bad day
{{{Flo}}}
Remember what Scarlett said - Tomorrow is another day! (or something)

545

Escaped Hillbilly Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:12:52pm

re: #519 dmon
The 9 months ago...best point. But my point is not that they have to do anything. They ought to save themselves a lot of heartache by thinking through the plans and it wouldn't hurt to compromise. Of course, it is pretty hard to compromise with idiots and bigots who don't want to compromise. But a show of consideration would help defuse the situation and rob the crazies of much of their support among the more moderate population. The longer it goes on, the more steam it gains.

546

Varek Raith Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:12:54pm

re: #543 JasonA

Other people claim to know differently. *shrug*

I'm lost.

547

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:13:26pm

re: #386 elbruce

Frankly, if we'd had some more of that before 9/11 happened, it might have helped to prevent it from happening. .

? How on Earth?

548

Dancing along the light of day Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:13:31pm

re: #538 Dark_Falcon

Sorry about the bad joke.

It's OK.
Everything is OK, today.
I am happy with the world.
Yes, even the LGF'rs!

How was your day?

549

Varek Raith Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:13:32pm

re: #545 Escaped Hillbilly

The 9 months ago...best point. But my point is not that they have to do anything. They ought to save themselves a lot of heartache by thinking through the plans and it wouldn't hurt to compromise. Of course, it is pretty hard to compromise with idiots and bigots who don't want to compromise. But a show of consideration would help defuse the situation and rob the crazies of much of their support among the more moderate population. The longer it goes on, the more steam it gains.

What about the other Mosques around the country that are being protested against?

550

webevintage Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:13:44pm

re: #542 Varek Raith

...
Then why did the Rs want to add it???

Probably so they could go home and brag to their Tea Party constituents how they made sure them illegals didn't get none of our good old American money.
TERROR BABIES!!
also.

551

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:14:12pm

re: #532 Aceofwhat?

because it's not actually blocking funding. that currently happens through this little thing called "appropriations".

Of course, nothing is entirely "yes or no" when it comes to doing public work. Fine, let's drill down and pick some nits

The James Zadroga 9/11 Health and Compensation Act of 2009, sponsored by Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-N.Y.), would provide medical monitoring to those exposed to toxins at ground zero, bolster treatment at specialized centers for those afflicted by toxins on Sept. 11 and reopen a compensation fund to provide for the economic loss of victims.
And it’s all paid for by closing a tax loophole on foreign companies with U.S. subsidiaries, Democrats said.

Most if not all of them are getting some level of health care, I'm sure. Is it enough? Maybe not, considering that there are some special medical circumstances occuring them as a group. The GOP seems to be complaining about it entirely because a few of their donors would lose the tax-exempt status of their Cayman Islands accounts.

552

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:14:21pm

re: #542 Varek Raith

...
Then why did the Rs want to add it???

cheap politics. like lawhawk said...the whole body politic is awash in cheap concern on this one. being concerned only about R's on this item is as silly as being concerned only about D's on this item...a pox on both houses.

553

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:14:28pm

re: #393 karmic_inquisitor

Who knew 9/11 would turn us into Serbia?

It still hasn't.

554

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:14:35pm

re: #546 Varek Raith

I'm lost.

He's under the impression that none of those who helped during 9/11 were illegals. I've read differently.

And if he's right, and there were none, then why the hell are the Republicans so concerned about them getting treatment?

555

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:14:51pm

re: #545 Escaped Hillbilly

The 9 months ago...best point. But my point is not that they have to do anything. They ought to save themselves a lot of heartache by thinking through the plans and it wouldn't hurt to compromise. Of course, it is pretty hard to compromise with idiots and bigots who don't want to compromise. But a show of consideration would help defuse the situation and rob the crazies of much of their support among the more moderate population. The longer it goes on, the more steam it gains.

It shouldn't have gained this much steam. There was no reason on the face of the earth for this to have ever been an issue, not a small one, and certainly not one of national interest.

It is a manufactured outrage, pure and simple.
And it should stop, now.

556

lawhawk Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:15:25pm

re: #536 Aceofwhat?

Weiner was right to be pissed that the bill didn't pass - but he should have been pissed at his own caucus for playing politics just as surely as he was pissed at Rep. King. Heck, King would have voted for the bill had they put it up for a straight vote.

Even with all this, the bill may come up for a vote in September. Again. Hopefully this time they wont need to play games.

Indeed, there should be a tremendous nonpartisan outcry over this issue - to just pass the damned legislation because it's been far too long and too many have suffered because of the feet-dragging by Congress to provide assistance to those who worked at Ground Zero.

The lack of sufficient outrage over this is itself confounding. Where Congress has the chance to do something right - and has done these workers wrong for years - all we get is crickets.

557

cliffster Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:15:26pm

re: #537 Floral Giraffe

Not a particularly good day, today.
But moving forward & looking to the future is all looking good.
Sometimes life is hard, you know...

How was the shooting?

Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, "I will try again tomorrow."

558

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:15:38pm

re: #552 Aceofwhat?

cheap politics. like lawhawk said...the whole body politic is awash in cheap concern on this one. being concerned only about R's on this item is as silly as being concerned only about D's on this item...a pox on both houses.

I call Magical Balance Fairy.

Four Dems voted against it. Four.

559

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:15:44pm

re: #536 Aceofwhat?

i disagree. Weiner lived up to his name.

I thought it was awesome. First time I saw that, I thought "we need 434 more guys like that in Congress!" Too many Dems are too well trained to roll over and play dead.

560

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:16:03pm

A new "roundabout" was just finished in my neighborhood. Was opened today.

It is one of the lead stories on the local news tonight.

561

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:16:49pm

re: #530 freetoken

Sort of like in the VDH essay that was posted in the Pages a little while ago, eh?

When will it end? Every damn day.

562

What, me worry? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:17:04pm

re: #545 Escaped Hillbilly

The 9 months ago...best point. But my point is not that they have to do anything. They ought to save themselves a lot of heartache by thinking through the plans and it wouldn't hurt to compromise. Of course, it is pretty hard to compromise with idiots and bigots who don't want to compromise. But a show of consideration would help defuse the situation and rob the crazies of much of their support among the more moderate population. The longer it goes on, the more steam it gains.

You do know that this Imam already had a small mosque 12 blocks away from the towers. He was there 27 years, since 1983 I believe. He wanted a bigger facility for a community center.

Or maybe he's just lying it wait to get 3 blocks away so he can unleash the terrorists that apparently he couldn't unleash a mile up the road?

563

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:17:05pm

re: #494 Escaped Hillbilly

Yeah, Walmart said the same thing when they built on the sight of a Civil War Cemetary. There are all kinds of possible compromises. I don't know what the answer would be if anybody bothered to try cause they won't anyway. Now days, people think screaming and flaming each other on message boards and being featured on Bill OReilly or some such passes for intelligent discussion.

If you're trying to compare Wal-Mart buying land to build and finding a "Civil War cemetery" on it and the whole issue with Cordoba House/Park51 (which is 2 blocks away and mostly out of sight of Ground Zero), you're barking up the wrong tree.

The Cordoba Initiative owns/controls the land, they have zoning approval from the city and the approval from the majority of the people who live and work in lower Manhattan. Iman Rauf seems like the sort of "moderate Muslim" the folks on the far right have been claiming they've wanted to see for the longest time, but now they smear him and the Cordoba Initiative and try to tie them with Hamas and other bad actors, even with no proof or cause.

Seriously, the next time someone tries to summon the spirit of 9/11 (in which many innocent people of many faiths died, including many Muslims) to oppose Cordoba House/Park51, I'm going to bust them in the mouth...

564

Escaped Hillbilly Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:17:20pm

re: #549 Varek Raith
They (protesters) are idiots. Each situation has to be dealt with individually. But those other mosque protesters aren't going to be able to whip up the national debate like these will.

565

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:17:45pm

re: #556 lawhawk

Weiner was right to be pissed that the bill didn't pass - but he should have been pissed at his own caucus for playing politics just as surely as he was pissed at Rep. King. Heck, King would have voted for the bill had they put it up for a straight vote.

King did vote in favor of the bill.

566

Varek Raith Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:18:00pm

Bleh, FF crashed...
Again.
:/

567

dmon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:18:06pm

re: #545 Escaped Hillbilly

The 9 months ago...best point. But my point is not that they have to do anything. They ought to save themselves a lot of heartache by thinking through the plans and it wouldn't hurt to compromise. Of course, it is pretty hard to compromise with idiots and bigots who don't want to compromise. But a show of consideration would help defuse the situation and rob the crazies of much of their support among the more moderate population. The longer it goes on, the more steam it gains.

Show of consideration? Is that sorta like when the blacks in the south had to show a little consideration? Like even if you have the right to sit anywhere on the bus you want, they really shouldnt do it cause it might upset the white folk?

568

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:18:11pm

re: #532 Aceofwhat?

no first responder is going without healthcare.

0% of them are getting health care? Got a link for that extraordinary claim?

569

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:18:33pm

re: #566 Varek Raith

Bleh, FF crashed...
Again.
:/

Chrome, baby. Chrome.

570

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:18:43pm

re: #551 elbruce

Of course, nothing is entirely "yes or no" when it comes to doing public work. Fine, let's drill down and pick some nits

Most if not all of them are getting some level of health care, I'm sure. Is it enough? Maybe not, considering that there are some special medical circumstances occuring them as a group. The GOP seems to be complaining about it entirely because a few of their donors would lose the tax-exempt status of their Cayman Islands accounts.

Yes, well the D's turned down the R offer of a yearly appropriation that could actually be tailored to what might actually be needed. So either way, they were going to get full coverage.

And you say "Cayman Islands accounts", i say "bye bye US subsidiaries and the jobs which they used to provide".

Note that you don't seem to be interested in whether this particular tax law helps us to lure jobs that might otherwise go to another country...don't tell me that you're all about tax breaks for the middle class as long as they don't get job opportunities...

571

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:18:51pm

re: #525 reine.de.tout

Although, in flitting around the internet today, I noticed there are some bloggers who are trying to make a case that yes, the planners did indeed hope for and expect this sort of outcry, thinking it would play into their needs, for some reason that makes no sense except to the folks who came up with that theory.

That's a special brand of crazy right there...

572

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:19:01pm

re: #412 Dark_Falcon

That's why she gets a pass from being called a bigot. The grief from losing a child is incalculable and I'm not going to label someone suffering that kind of pain.

I'm inclined to give anyone feeling such grief a pass, although not to let their feelings override my reason--except I do think of Cindy Sheehan, who someone earlier mentioned. I felt really bad for her, and I think I gave her more of a pass than I necessarily should have...and I still think she didn't set out to get into bed with the people she did, she just wanted to exorcise what she was feeling.

But the vultures were waiting.

573

cliffster Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:19:07pm

re: #569 JasonA

Chrome, baby. Chrome.

chrome kicks ass.

574

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:19:10pm

re: #451 JasonA

Willfully blind? No. I just clearly see Muslims in every day life being as American as everyone else. I'm not the blind man in this case. For one to think it's in bad taste means that they somehow hold the religion of Islam and all of its adherents responsible for the tragedy. You're smart enough to know that that's not true.

I can't be responible for others opinions. And your more-politically-correct-than-thou shtick is wearing thin.

575

Varek Raith Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:19:31pm

re: #569 JasonA

Chrome, baby. Chrome.

!
No I remeber!!!
I forgot to disable Mozilla's stupid plugin-container!
:)

576

cronus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:19:35pm

re: #445 Escaped Hillbilly

Ok, so you have a reasonable reason to think that and can discuss it. I would agree except it completely ignores the feelings of a huge population of people who are going to act on those feelings. Most religions would choose to avoid that kind of conflict. Not saying they have to. Of course they can build there if they like. But it is not really in their best interest and stirs up hateful and painful feelings. Since that is not their stated intention, they should consider building elsewhere, esp. since this is not a local mosque intended to be used only by the congregation but a large cultural center a lot of Muslims should be expected to have free access to. Seems silly to insist it be there. Now of course, people are going to want to dig in their heels and say they should build there to prove a point to the bigots. And the extremists win again. Compromise would serve both sides well but it won't happen because the crazies have made this a cause.

I also briefly entertained this same notion of compromise but thought better of it. The promoters of this project are victims of an unintelligible rage bomb. One day your advancing a project that appears non-controversial and receiving go ahead nods from city administrators and then opposition materializes seemingly overnight and spirals into a national campaign of disinformation. Park51 promoters weren't approached by concerned, reasonable citizens seeking dialogue. They are the target of a cynical, politically motivated hit job.

Park51 supporters should have also been able to count on leadership from elected officials, but most national political figures have cowardly refused to call out the project opponents for who they are and far too many have knowingly piggybacked on the misunderstanding among the general public about the nature of the project.

Since the opposition stance is vacuous and real leadership is lacking there is no ground on which to compromise.

577

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:19:58pm

re: #561 Stanley Sea

When will it end? Every damn day.

Typical VDH essay:

1. It's Obama's fault.
2. Obama's doing it wrong.
3. It's because of the liberal elites.
4. They're all a bunch of beta males!

Repeat.

578

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:20:00pm

G'night knuckleheads!

579

Daniel Ballard Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:20:19pm

re: #537 Floral Giraffe

Sorry to hear you had a rough day. {{Floral}}

We had a great time. The thing about the annual speed shooting championship is the friends we see every year for about 12 years or so now. Young KC Eusebio won it. I saw him start at about 8 years old. Now he is 20. And a champion. For the second time. Great video there. He is so fast!

After that I went to a black belt / instructor certification dinner-For my very first serious student of Wu Ming Ta. I had not gone back to see my old sensei for some time. He surprised me with a senior instructor certificate, that is for a decade of teaching. Surprised the heck out of me.

580

cliffster Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:20:35pm

re: #578 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

G'night knuckleheads!

gnight big-boned veggie-man. Enjoy the new roundabout..

581

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:20:39pm

re: #559 elbruce

I thought it was awesome. First time I saw that, I thought "we need 434 more guys like that in Congress!" Too many Dems are too well trained to roll over and play dead.

i don't mind a legislator getting pissed about poisoned cookies; i simply expect them to not have been helping to mix the ingredients.

582

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:20:46pm

re: #574 swamprat

I can't be responible for others opinions. And your more-politically-correct-than-thou shtick is wearing thin.

In this climate I'm really not maintaining the "Politically Correct" position, Swamp.

583

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:21:08pm

re: #570 Aceofwhat?

And you say "Cayman Islands accounts", i say "bye bye US subsidiaries and the jobs which they used to provide".

So... offshore tax shelters are a jobs program. You're going there? Really?

584

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:21:12pm

re: #568 elbruce

0% of them are getting health care? Got a link for that extraordinary claim?

none of them are going without, i said.

mind the double negative.

585

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:21:25pm

re: #545 Escaped Hillbilly

The 9 months ago...best point. But my point is not that they have to do anything. They ought to save themselves a lot of heartache by thinking through the plans and it wouldn't hurt to compromise. Of course, it is pretty hard to compromise with idiots and bigots who don't want to compromise. But a show of consideration would help defuse the situation and rob the crazies of much of their support among the more moderate population. The longer it goes on, the more steam it gains.

Jesus Christo, they now have to sell their property, lose all the money spent in getting it approved with the local boards??

586

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:21:49pm

re: #583 elbruce

So... offshore tax shelters are a jobs program. You're going there? Really?

you want a link?

587

William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:21:55pm

re: #364 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sattv? Are you getting your jollies on the fact that this is happening in the North?

I kind of am!

Must be a bunch o' them "outside agitators"!

/// :D

More seriously, us Northerners have plenty of sad history that way. See the "know nothings" as a starting point and follow along to the present.

588

lawhawk Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:22:05pm

re: #565 JasonA

Ah - so he did... along with 11 other GOPers.

The final vote was 255 to 159. 4 Democrats voted against.

589

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:22:10pm

re: #431 swamprat

No need to examine and I have elaborated before. Some are offended. The initial response to the mosque was that the builders did not have the "right" to build. Now, of course, they say "Oh no! we never meant that! Well, they did. And they were wrong.
The "taste" aspect comes from how this will be, and is, being viewed and spun. If you cannot see it you are being willfully blind.

But the viewpoints of those who lost loved ones and see this as an encroachment, the viewpoints of people who claim to be heartsick, but are bigots following an agenda, the viewpoints of those who are making political hay out of this, the viewpoints of the other bigots who want this mosque to be a thumb in our eye...none of those matter, although each and every one should not have their voice stilled.
The owners should be allowed to build. They are the owners.
We have a guide when conflict exists. We wrote it down to keep our memory from giving us a tainted view of what was agreed upon. We are not required to have the correct opinion, or follow the meme-de-jour.

We have the Constitution.

When pack meets with pack in the jungle,
And neither will go from the trail,
Lie down till the leaders have spoken,
It may be fair words will prevail.

"The law of the jungle" gets such a bad rap.

//This quotation brought to you by a totally random blip in my memory.

590

What, me worry? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:22:30pm

re: #572 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm inclined to give anyone feeling such grief a pass, although not to let their feelings override my reason--except I do think of Cindy Sheehan, who someone earlier mentioned. I felt really bad for her, and I think I gave her more of a pass than I necessarily should have...and I still think she didn't set out to get into bed with the people she did, she just wanted to exorcise what she was feeling.

But the vultures were waiting.

Well most grieving moms don't make kissy face with Chavez. That was just beyond creepiness. Cindy's issues seemed to go far afield from her initial protesting.

591

freetoken Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:22:48pm

re: #561 Stanley Sea

When will it end? Every damn day.

Who knows. People get attached to their favorite pundits. Most likely because said pundits reinforce existing beliefs.

592

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:22:57pm

re: #432 Wayne A. Schneider

According to Robert Spencer (SIOA), because the Burlington Coat Factory building was struck by landing gear from one of the planes, it counts as part of "Ground Zero". Personally, I don't buy this nonsense. But this is their justification for claiming that the mosque (which they won't admit isn't just a mosque) is being built on Ground Zero itself.

And as I've said, my Tante Cheike's apartment filled with ash from the towers. However, if she wants to let Muslim friends pray in her living room...

593

Varek Raith Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:23:07pm

re: #575 Varek Raith

Much better.

594

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:24:03pm

re: #590 marjoriemoon

Well most grieving moms don't make kissy face with Chavez. That was just beyond creepiness. Cindy's issues seemed to go far afield from her initial protesting.

Bingo.
I felt bad for her loss, and I know, as a Mom, how crazy the loss (or even the thought of a loss) of a child can make you.
But she went beyond . . .

595

Daniel Ballard Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:24:58pm

re: #544 reine.de.tout

D_L & I went to a big pistol shooting competition. Helped folks learn to shoot and try speed shooting at a side venue for Sig Sauer guns. Met the nice lady behind A Girls Guide To Guns blog. Nice lady.

Had a ball! Maybe won a another gun or a nice prize in the raffle... Maybe.

596

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:24:58pm

re: #584 Aceofwhat?

none of them are going without, i said.

mind the double negative.

Yeah, got that backwards, meant to say 100%. But either 0% or 100% constitutes an extraordinary claim. A link would do a great deal to relieve my hand-wringing, liberal worrywart mind over whether there are any 9/11 first responders out there not getting sufficient health care.

re: #586 Aceofwhat?

you want a link?

Sure, let's do this thing.

597

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:25:27pm

re: #595 Rightwingconspirator

D_L & I went to a big pistol shooting competition. Helped folks learn to shoot and try speed shooting at a side venue for Sig Sauer guns. Met the nice lady behind A Girls Guide To Guns blog. Nice lady.

Had a ball! Maybe won a another gun or a nice prize in the raffle... Maybe.

If the video goes up, please send me a link -

598

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:25:41pm

re: #582 JasonA

Fair enough.

599

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:25:58pm

re: #596 elbruce

Yeah, got that backwards, meant to say 100%. But either 0% or 100% constitutes an extraordinary claim. A link would do a great deal to relieve my hand-wringing, liberal worrywart mind over whether there are any 9/11 first responders out there not getting sufficient health care.

re: #586 Aceofwhat?

Sure, let's do this thing.

Oh, gawd.
I'd better leave now.

600

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:26:47pm

re: #577 Gus 802

Typical VDH essay:

1. It's Obama's fault.
2. Obama's doing it wrong.
3. It's because of the liberal elites.
4. They're all a bunch of beta males!

Repeat.

/

You forgot "and I know Greek and Latin, and can kill you with my brain!"

601

Dancing along the light of day Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:27:12pm

re: #544 reine.de.tout

Sending you a mail...
re: #557 cliffster

Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, "I will try again tomorrow."

Thank you.

602

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:27:40pm

re: #572 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm inclined to give anyone feeling such grief a pass, although not to let their feelings override my reason--except I do think of Cindy Sheehan, who someone earlier mentioned. I felt really bad for her, and I think I gave her more of a pass than I necessarily should have...and I still think she didn't set out to get into bed with the people she did, she just wanted to exorcise what she was feeling.

But the vultures were waiting.

Oooh, good comparison. Mother of lost son of 9/11, and Cindy Sheehan. Grieving mother ready to somehow find a justification of the death of their child. Doesn't always end up well.

603

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:27:53pm

re: #598 swamprat

Fair enough.

If I come across as overly-obnoxious then it could be that I've been spending too much time around here... Anywho, you're definitely a lizard whose opinion I respect, no matter how much I might disagree with it. Don't think otherwise.

604

Daniel Ballard Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:27:57pm

re: #599 reine.de.tout

Be sure to see the 60 minutes piece. Big discussion about the rubber annulus seal failure...

605

lawhawk Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:27:58pm

re: #596 elbruce

The concern was that the compensation for those workers was insufficient - that this bill would supplement or replace the 9/11 settlement being worked out along the lines of the VCF and would be based on a $700+ million fund from various defendants including NYC, Port Authority and other parties. Some of those most seriously injured/debilitated could potentially need more care over a longer period than expected or anticipated (side effects and ailments not showing up for years following exposure - think expose to asbestos).

606

Killgore Trout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:28:05pm

The anti-mosque poster boy is a big hit.

607

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:28:53pm

re: #600 Cato the Elder

You forgot "and I know Greek and Latin, and can kill you with my brain!"

My heart skips a beat every time Cato makes a Firefly reference.

608

Daniel Ballard Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:29:27pm

re: #606 Killgore Trout

The anti-mosque poster boy is a big hit.

Wow. Lots of hits there.

What happens if Balloon Juice meets Hot Air?
//

609

Varek Raith Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:29:48pm

re: #608 Rightwingconspirator

Wow. Lots of hits there.

What happens if Balloon Juice meets Hot Air?
//

Matter, meet anti-matter.

610

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:30:01pm

re: #608 Rightwingconspirator

Wow. Lots of hits there.

What happens if Balloon Juice meets Hot Air?
//

Balloon Juice Soup

611

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:30:08pm

re: #604 Rightwingconspirator

Be sure to see the 60 minutes piece. Big discussion about the rubber annulus seal failure...

That last part sounds like a sex toy.

612

cliffster Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:30:47pm

re: #606 Killgore Trout

what happens if you say "balloon juice" three times?

613

prairiefire Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:30:54pm

re: #606 Killgore Trout

Hi, Kilgore. Have you heard of the violin maker, Anton Krutz?[Link: kcstrings.com...]

We just rented a violin from his shop for my daughter's orchestra class.

614

Mr. Crankypants Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:30:54pm

re: #611 JasonA

That last part sounds like a sex toy.

something you want to tell us?

615

Mr. Crankypants Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:31:24pm

re: #609 Varek Raith

Matter, meet anti-matter.

More like Matter meet doesn't matter

616

Daniel Ballard Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:32:00pm

re: #611 JasonA

I hate to contemplate sex toy and fail. Sounds like a real buzz kill.

617

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:32:01pm

re: #614 PT Barnum

something you want to tell us?

Nah, we're still talking about super-serious stuff now.

618

William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:32:16pm

re: #595 Rightwingconspirator

D_L & I went to a big pistol shooting competition. Helped folks learn to shoot and try speed shooting at a side venue for Sig Sauer guns. Met the nice lady behind A Girls Guide To Guns blog. Nice lady.

Had a ball! Maybe won a another gun or a nice prize in the raffle... Maybe.

Sig - Nicely designed and made toys. I wish I could afford a P210 in 9mm but that would require a lotto win.

I'll look forward to the video :)

619

Escaped Hillbilly Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:32:19pm

re: #563 talon_262

"Seriously, the next time someone tries to summon the spirit of 9/11 (in which many innocent people of many faiths died, including many Muslims) to oppose Cordoba House/Park51, I'm going to bust them in the mouth..."

Thus you prove my point. You're going to bust someone in the mouth because you disagree with them.
And yes, I do compare this stupid building which everyone is saying is not a mosque with WalMart in that somebody is trying to say that they are right because they own the land and can do what they want with it. That is exactly the argument WalMart used, and won in court with. It didn't make them right. It's a weak argument. What is legal is not what is always right. They may be right for the reasons some others here have stated, like not giving in to bigotry, or meeting the needs of the local Muslim population, or presenting a peaceful message to the rest of the nation...but not just because they can.
And rational debate and compromise and consideration of others' feelings is lost to flame wars.

620

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:32:55pm

re: #616 Rightwingconspirator

I hate to contemplate sex toy and fail. Sounds like a real buzz kill.

Oh, you have no ide... *ahem* Love your pictures, by the way.

621

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:33:24pm

re: #606 Killgore Trout

The anti-mosque poster boy is a big hit.

Yeah, but I could do with the referral from Democratic Underground. That place is a cesspool.

622

Killgore Trout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:33:30pm

re: #613 prairiefire

Hi, Kilgore. Have you heard of the violin maker, Anton Krutz?[Link: kcstrings.com...]

We just rented a violin from his shop for my daughter's orchestra class.

Yes, I used to deal with those all the time when I was working in a retail shop. Good starter instruments.

623

sagehen Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:34:13pm

re: #506 elbruce

Hey, how did Republicans vote on health care for 9/11 first responders? I mean, since they care about 9/11 so much... Oh yeah. Funny how their "concern" seems to appear when it's time to scream at brown people and vanish when it's time to help our heroes.

They didn't want it on the suspension calendar, because they wanted to be able to propose amendments. In particular, something about immigration. So they would have voted for this bill if they'd been allowed to use it as another opportunity to scream at brown people.

624

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:34:48pm

re: #596 elbruce

Sure, let's do this thing.

[Link: thomas.loc.gov...]

appropriations Omnibus for 2010, includes 71million for first responder medical care. 70 million was allocated in 2009.

the money's already there. maybe it would be better to just make one big lump sum, maybe it would be better to do yearly appropriations.

one thing's for sure...neither party seems terribly interested in the actual math of how to best serve these people without creating obvious waste.

625

Mr Pancakes Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:35:05pm

re: #611 JasonA

That last part sounds like a sex toy.

Sounds more like a faulty contraceptive.

626

Daniel Ballard Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:35:26pm

re: #618 wlewisiii
Thanks!
I hope she posts it. She came back around and I ran her through a couple speed runs at the bianchi plates. (4 steel plates in a row, 5 shots maximum, fastest to win) It's really hard thought not sure if that will be posted. A similar contest from DSSF.

627

Mr. Crankypants Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:35:45pm

re: #625 Mr Pancakes

Sounds more like a faulty contraceptive.

I swear there's a pun thread in there somewhere, but I'm not gonna be the first.

628

Interesting Times Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:36:13pm

re: #604 Rightwingconspirator

Be sure to see the 60 minutes piece. Big discussion about the rubber annulus seal failure...

The American Family Association refers to it as a rubber alimentarycanalus.

629

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:36:49pm

BreakingNews

Small alligator spotted on North Branch of Chicago River - chicagobreakingnews [Link: bit.ly...]

D_F, we are infiltrating.

630

prairiefire Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:37:18pm

re: #622 Killgore Trout

Yes, I used to deal with those all the time when I was working in a retail shop. Good starter instruments.

Good, thanks for sharing your opinion. She is excited to begin tomorrow with her violin. She trimmed her finger nails and we discussed when she will have her set practice time.

631

William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:38:20pm

re: #626 Rightwingconspirator

Thanks!
I hope she posts it. She came back around and I ran her through a couple speed runs at the bianchi plates. (4 steel plates in a row, 5 shots maximum, fastest to win) It's really hard thought not sure if that will be posted. A similar contest from DSSF.

Sounds like a fun game. Wish they'd let us do stuff like that at my range - it'd be fun to see if I could do that with my Model 64. Thanks for the link.

632

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:38:25pm

re: #619 Escaped Hillbilly

"Seriously, the next time someone tries to summon the spirit of 9/11 (in which many innocent people of many faiths died, including many Muslims) to oppose Cordoba House/Park51, I'm going to bust them in the mouth..."

Thus you prove my point. You're going to bust someone in the mouth because you disagree with them.
And yes, I do compare this stupid building which everyone is saying is not a mosque with WalMart in that somebody is trying to say that they are right because they own the land and can do what they want with it. That is exactly the argument WalMart used, and won in court with. It didn't make them right. It's a weak argument. What is legal is not what is always right. They may be right for the reasons some others here have stated, like not giving in to bigotry, or meeting the needs of the local Muslim population, or presenting a peaceful message to the rest of the nation...but not just because they can.
And rational debate and compromise and consideration of others' feelings is lost to flame wars.

OK, since you're so versed on what should be "right" in this situation, lay it out there point-by-point, in detail:

What exactly do you think Iman Rauf and the Cordoba Initiative should do about Cordoba House/Park51 and the investment they've already made? Don't pull punches...

633

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:38:42pm

re: #604 Rightwingconspirator

Be sure to see the 60 minutes piece. Big discussion about the rubber annulus seal failure...

I saw it.
It's a repeat, AND the information was not accurate.
That guy was an electrician.
The Roi tells me he sees rubber pieces in the return flow all the time. The guy was told it wasn't an issue; and it wasn't, that was correct. Anyhoo - that piece is not accurate, again, that particular guy was an electrician, not part of the actual drilling operations, and was talking about things he has no expertise in.

634

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:39:50pm

Alberto Gonzales: Changing the 14th Amendment won't solve our immigration crisis
By Alberto R. Gonzales
Sunday, August 22, 2010

Like most Americans, I am a descendant of immigrants and a grateful beneficiary of the opportunities available to our nation's citizens. My grandparents emigrated from Mexico in the early 20th century seeking a better life, and they found it working in the fields and dairy farms of Texas. Diversity is one of the great strengths of the United States -- diversity fueled by the migration of ethnicities, cultures and ideas...

Seems like a lot of former Bush cabinet members have been rebuking the Tea Party cranks.

635

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:39:51pm

re: #629 Stanley Sea

BreakingNews

Small alligator spotted on North Branch of Chicago River - chicagobreakingnews [Link: bit.ly...]

D_F, we are infiltrating.

RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!

636

Interesting Times Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:40:59pm

re: #621 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, but I could do with the referral from Democratic Underground. That place is a cesspool.

Actually, they give props to LGF in that particular thread:

This link is to Little Green Footballs, a once rabidly right wing blog whose owner has taken a turn toward sanity...and apparently developed a wicked sense of humor in the process.

637

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:42:07pm

re: #603 JasonA

If I come across as overly-obnoxious then it could be that I've been spending too much time around here... Anywho, you're definitely a lizard whose opinion I respect, no matter how much I might disagree with it. Don't think otherwise.

Classy!

638

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:42:11pm

re: #632 talon_262

OK, since you're so versed on what should be "right" in this situation, lay it out there point-by-point, in detail:

What exactly do you think Iman Rauf and the Cordoba Initiative should do about Cordoba House/Park51 and the investment they've already made? Don't pull punches...

It's "American" if they loose it.

That's all I'm getting out of this argument.

Do the right thing under our system, purchase building, get permits (pay for studies, architects etc.etc.etc. - this amount is huge) get approval.

Then....emotionally misguided folks are against it? BAIL! If you really cared etc...

639

alexknyc Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:42:42pm

re: #505 cliffster

It's bad luck to be superstitious

I say this at the poker table all the time.

640

HappyWarrior Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:42:53pm

re: #634 Gus 802

Alberto Gonzales: Changing the 14th Amendment won't solve our immigration crisis
By Alberto R. Gonzales
Sunday, August 22, 2010

Seems like a lot of former Bush cabinet members have been rebuking the Tea Party cranks.

Well I imagine the response will be a couple things: The first will be on par with Limbaugh's response to Powell's endorsement of Obama that Gonzalez is only doing this because he's a Latino and the second will be "Well the Bush administration weren't "real conservatives" anyway." Nevermind the fact that the guy they want to emulate most, Reagan gave amnesty to illegals.

641

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:43:25pm

re: #603 JasonA

Thanks muchly. I truly appreciate that. It seems that to even admit that the one percent of a conflict is justified, even though the other side uses that one percent to try violate every thing America stands for...

People here are so zealous for right, they fail to admit the assholes use a small bit of truth to try to justify their agenda of wrong.

The 98 year old widowed grandmother is told that same people who caused her sons' death want to build a sneering monument to his destruction. She goes to protest with only this misconception.
Her right to be offended, even if mis-informed, is used by the worst of people.
And they don't care if it is wrong, because they are angry and afraid.
And worse, are the people using the situation to try to gain power.

642

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:43:33pm

re: #571 talon_262

That's a special brand of crazy right there...

Who.
Me?

643

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:44:07pm

re: #638 Stanley Sea

oh my pimf. im not that stupid, really.

644

Killgore Trout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:44:51pm

re: #630 prairiefire

Good, thanks for sharing your opinion. She is excited to begin tomorrow with her violin. She trimmed her finger nails and we discussed when she will have her set practice time.

Nice. It's a very important skill. Also helps with the development of math abilities.

645

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:44:56pm

re: #642 reine.de.tout

Who.
Me?

No, the bloggers you were talking about.

Whoops...

646

sagehen Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:45:24pm

re: #567 dmon

Show of consideration? Is that sorta like when the blacks in the south had to show a little consideration? Like even if you have the right to sit anywhere on the bus you want, they really shouldnt do it cause it might upset the white folk?

And more recently, they shouldn't make such a fuss about the Confederate Battle Flag being flown over their state capitol. They shouldn't be so touchy about lost causers wanting to celebrate their heritage.

647

Mr. Crankypants Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:45:26pm

re: #642 reine.de.tout

No I think he's talking about the yutzs who think that the protest was some part of a double secret plan to wreak havoc with US-Muslim relations as a recruiting tool for the terrorists.

648

Dancing along the light of day Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:45:28pm

Where's Ojoe?
It's a lovely pink cloud sunset!
BBL.
Clouds are awesome!

649

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:45:30pm

re: #640 HappyWarrior

Well I imagine the response will be a couple things: The first will be on par with Limbaugh's response to Powell's endorsement of Obama that Gonzalez is only doing this because he's a Latino and the second will be "Well the Bush administration weren't "real conservatives" anyway." Nevermind the fact that the guy they want to emulate most, Reagan gave amnesty to illegals.

And, he's trying his hardest to cover his ass.

No respect for this guy.

650

b_sharp Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:45:50pm

re: #643 Stanley Sea

oh my pimf. im not that stupid, really.

I am, loosely speaking of course.

651

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:46:07pm

re: #636 publicityStunted

Actually, they give props to LGF in that particular thread:

yeah, i love the part where we used to be total wingnuts...huge compliment...

652

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:47:21pm

re: #650 b_sharp

I am, loosely speaking of course.

:) i was horrified.

653

HappyWarrior Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:47:24pm

re: #649 Stanley Sea

And, he's trying his hardest to cover his ass.

No respect for this guy.

Oh yeah I got no love for Gonzalez either but I am just spectulating on what they'll say.

654

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:47:54pm

re: #645 talon_262

re: #647 PT Barnum

OK, got it!
*whew*
Thought I might be in a heap 'o trouble.

655

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:48:02pm

I am really really starting to hate the assholes inciting this conflict.

They wouldn't know a genuine threat if it bit them on the butt.

656

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:48:36pm

Charles! It would be really cool if we could upload photos to the regular comments, like the pages.

My beer butt chicken would freak you folks out, it looks so damn good.

657

cliffster Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:48:45pm

How good a cook is my wife? Brussels sprouts - I've hated them my whole life. I mean.. hated them. throw-up-in-my-mouth hated them. She got it in her head she was going to make some brussels sprouts I like. I've been eating them like candy all night. Nastiest little round green slimy icky veggies I can imagine, and I can't get enough of them.

658

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:48:55pm

re: #619 Escaped Hillbilly

And yes, I do compare this stupid building...

They may be right for the reasons some others here have stated, like not giving in to bigotry, or meeting the needs of the local Muslim population, or presenting a peaceful message to the rest of the nation...but not just because they can.

So here you're listing a number of perfectly good reasons to do it. And yet you call it "stupid." That's stupid.

Aside from the many good reasons to do it, I do think that the right under both the 1st and 4th amendments justify it as well. I know of no explicit religion that worships Wal-Mart, so the 1st amendment isn't relevant to your comparison.

re: #641 swamprat

The 98 year old widowed grandmother is told that same people who caused her sons' death want to build a sneering monument to his destruction. She goes to protest with only this misconception.

Maybe we should be directing our ire at the people who told her that, yes?

659

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:49:16pm

re: #641 swamprat

The only small bit of truth is that the people who took down those towers were Muslims. Radical Muslims. To use that fact to condemn this community center doesn't sit well with me.

The only sitting US Representative to be assassinated was killed by radical Christians. No one would think to condemn all of them for that crime. But then, Muslims are "The Other" as far as mainstream America is concerned. *sigh*

660

Interesting Times Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:49:28pm

re: #651 Aceofwhat?

yeah, i love the part where we used to be total wingnuts...huge compliment...

I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming they mean the former commenters who now inhabit the land of the banned...

661

What, me worry? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:49:47pm

re: #634 Gus 802

Alberto Gonzales: Changing the 14th Amendment won't solve our immigration crisis
By Alberto R. Gonzales
Sunday, August 22, 2010

Seems like a lot of former Bush cabinet members have been rebuking the Tea Party cranks.

He's right, but Gonzales isn't really a popular fellow, I think with anyone. As I recall there was perjury charges and spying on Americans?

662

Mr. Crankypants Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:49:56pm

re: #657 cliffster

How good a cook is my wife? Brussels sprouts - I've hated them my whole life. I mean.. hated them. throw-up-in-my-mouth hated them. She got it in her head she was going to make some brussels sprouts I like. I've been eating them like candy all night. Nastiest little round green slimy icky veggies I can imagine, and I can't get enough of them.

what did she do with them? I've always liked veggies, regardless, so I'm curious, as I have a son who turns his nose up at all of them.

663

Killgore Trout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:50:06pm

re: #651 Aceofwhat?

yeah, i love the part where we used to be total wingnuts...huge compliment...

Yeah, lefties still don't get it. I'm still a huge critic of Islam and Muslims in general. But I think building this mosque is as important as publishing the Mohammed cartoons. As a society we can not afford to turn our backs on free speech, freedom of religion or rational thought.

664

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:50:38pm

re: #661 marjoriemoon

He's right, but Gonzales isn't really a popular fellow, I think with anyone. As I recall there was perjury charges and spying on Americans?

Yeah, he isn't. Don't ask me though because I'm not familiar with his history.

665

cliffster Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:51:14pm

re: #662 PT Barnum

what did she do with them? I've always liked veggies, regardless, so I'm curious, as I have a son who turns his nose up at all of them.

I can ask. I'll find out and post it up here. Might even make the book.. (hi, Reine)

666

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:51:39pm

re: #429 Kreuzueber Halbmond

Ever since 9/11, people have been screaming for "moderate Muslims" to come forward and renounce terrorism. Now some guy - A Muslim Imam - steps up and wants to preach peace and love for all humanity, and it's not good enough. These freaks are exposed for being what they always were - a xenophobic drag on our future.

Post more often.

667

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:51:48pm

re: #659 JasonA

The only small bit of truth is that the people who took down those towers were Muslims. Radical Muslims.

I categorize them as intolerant extremist radicals who twist their religion to try to start a broad war between the Middle East and the West, with mass casualties on both sides. That's the group they belong in. Most of the bigots behind opposition to Park51 are in the same category.

668

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:52:04pm

Yipee! I think I'm running a fever.

Groan.

669

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:52:25pm

re: #663 Killgore Trout

Yeah, lefties still don't get it. I'm still a huge critic of Islam and Muslims in general. But I think building this mosque is as important as publishing the Mohammed cartoons. As a society we can not afford to turn our backs on free speech, freedom of religion or rational thought.

a shockingly sane and insightful post, given your prior wingnut status;)

670

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:52:34pm

re: #665 cliffster

I can ask. I'll find out and post it up here. Might even make the book.. (hi, Reine)

yep.
'cept I'm leaving in a bit.
After you post it, just click on the comment number, and email the comment link to me, and i'll get it.

671

Killgore Trout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:53:30pm

re: #669 Aceofwhat?

a shockingly sane and insightful post, given your prior wingnut status;)

;)

672

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:54:59pm

re: #669 Aceofwhat?

a shockingly sane and insightful post, given your prior wingnut status;)

Lemme tell you about Killgore.

When the tea parties first started gaining traction, Killgore started poking around, and found some nasty stuff.

He predicted much of what has come to pass. He absolutely did. Folks here didn't believe him; yelled at him for posting anti-tea-party stuff all the time (and it was all the time); but he was right on the money.

Smart man, our Killgore.

673

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:55:21pm

re: #663 Killgore Trout

I'm still a huge critic of Islam and Muslims in general.

As in, the way most practice the religion today, or the religion itself? If you're talking about the former, the Park51 is about the best idea ever, given their mission and vision statements. If you're talking about the latter, then widespread genocide will become ultimately the only viable solution.

re: #663 Killgore Trout

But I think building this mosque is as important as publishing the Mohammed cartoons.

That's a great analogy, thanks.

674

b_sharp Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:55:36pm

re: #652 Stanley Sea

:) i was horrified.

Nice thing about text communication, it doesn't take long to recognize a person's writing ability and concern for being accurate.

675

Escaped Hillbilly Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:55:43pm

re: #632 talon_262

I don't know what is right. God, I wish I did. I said having the right to do something uner the law does not necessarily make it right. So, if I think they ought not do something, I am not advocating they be denied their rights but rather hoping they will choose not to do it. A lot of folks seem to think that if they throw that (legal right) out, they win the argument by default.
I know some people are trying deny them their rights, but I am not one of them and don't appreciate being lumped in.
You advocated hitting someone you disagreed with. So who's denying someone their rights?

676

Killgore Trout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:56:49pm

re: #672 reine.de.tout

Smart man, our Killgore.

Alkohal feedz mah brane und makes my intelekt awesome!

677

prairiefire Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:57:47pm

re: #676 Killgore Trout

Alkohal feedz mah brane und makes my intelekt awesome!

Is that the secret?? Sweeeet.

678

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:57:49pm

re: #641 swamprat

Thanks muchly. I truly appreciate that. It seems that to even admit that the one percent of a conflict is justified, even though the other side uses that one percent to try violate every thing America stands for...

People here are so zealous for right, they fail to admit the assholes use a small bit of truth to try to justify their agenda of wrong.

The 98 year old widowed grandmother is told that same people who caused her sons' death want to build a sneering monument to his destruction. She goes to protest with only this misconception.
Her right to be offended, even if mis-informed, is used by the worst of people.
And they don't care if it is wrong, because they are angry and afraid.
And worse, are the people using the situation to try to gain power.

Just so.

679

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:58:15pm

re: #672 reine.de.tout

Lemme tell you about Killgore.

When the tea parties first started gaining traction, Killgore started poking around, and found some nasty stuff.

He predicted much of what has come to pass. He absolutely did. Folks here didn't believe him; yelled at him for posting anti-tea-party stuff all the time (and it was all the time); but he was right on the money.

Smart man, our Killgore.

And he can make one pork chop last a whole year!

680

thelacritic Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:58:29pm

re: #291 reine.de.tout

Here's the thing:

You say you haven't made up your mind on the efficacy of this community center.

But in the first place, unless you have money invested in this project, the efficacy of it is something you need not be concerned about in any way.

In the second place, all of your questions are coming across as if you HAVE made a decision whether or not this project should be opposed, and the types of questions you're asking are those asked by people who are opposed to it.
So I sort of think you've made up your mind, even though you say otherwise.
Now, as to this:

That's a very large sum of money to me, and maybe to you. It is not a large sum of money to spend in NYC on a project such as this one. So it doesn't appear that an "extraordinary" amount of money is being spent here, rather, what's being spent is what one might expect to have to spend in NYC on this sort of project.

And as to whether it's better to spend it here or there or wherever - when the Catholic Church builds a church and a school, do you ask the Church to justify spending it here instead of there? If not, why are you asking this question about this project?

No, I have not made up my mind. And no one has answered my questions. Let's say the people putting their money towards this Islamic community center want this to e a symbol of some sort, that would affect my opinion. If those putting money towards it see it as an ordinary building that agents my opinion too.

681

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:59:30pm

re: #679 Gus 802

And he can make one pork chop last a whole year!

/

LOL.
He sure can.

682

Sheila Broflovski Sun, Aug 22, 2010 7:59:58pm

re: #636 publicityStunted

Actually, they give props to LGF in that particular thread:

They can keep their props, and shove them somewhere dark and smelly.

683

Mr. Crankypants Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:00:33pm

re: #682 Alouette

They can keep their props, and shove them somewhere dark and smelly.

Uranus..not where the sun doesn't shine, but certainly where the sun shines faintly

684

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:00:53pm

re: #680 thelacritic

No, I have not made up my mind. And no one has answered my questions. Let's say the people putting their money towards this Islamic community center want this to e a symbol of some sort, that would affect my opinion. If those putting money towards it see it as an ordinary building that agents my opinion too.

Symbols are tricky things. They can mean different things to different people, and the result might not have been the original intent.

685

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:01:12pm

Cut the hatere: #667 elbruce

I categorize them as intolerant extremist radicals who twist their religion to try to start a broad war between the Middle East and the West, with mass casualties on both sides. That's the group they belong in. Most of the bigots behind opposition to Park51 are in the same category.

What evidence is there that those who oppose it are trying to start a broad war between the ME and the West?

686

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:01:20pm

re: #659 JasonA

Have to agree. And they hate the Sufi. And this particular Sufi worked as an envoy for President Bush. ( Bush was the one who stood on a stack of rubble, with a bullhorn and told America that he would avenge our dead)
So the theory is that Bush hired this terrorist imam to represent him and now the imam wants to build a shrine to the terrorists. Let me know when Elvis shows up driving the UFO.
//Yeah, the mosque is certainly a wahibbist temple. With a swimming pool and a gift shoppe.

687

freetoken Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:01:23pm

re: #663 Killgore Trout

I'm still a huge critic of Islam and Muslims in general. But I think building this mosque is as important as publishing the Mohammed cartoons.

Well said. I for one think the neolithic and bronze-age religious thinking and religious dogmas are way past their sell-by date, yet I am really hoping that the Park51 project goes ahead. The anti-Islam protesters are displaying such an ugly yet perfect example of entire reason Rights are enshrined in the Constitution and why we force our laws into conforming to those Rights.

688

Mr. Crankypants Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:01:24pm

G'nite all

689

Gus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:01:51pm

re: #680 thelacritic

No, I have not made up my mind. And no one has answered my questions. Let's say the people putting their money towards this Islamic community center want this to e a symbol of some sort, that would affect my opinion. If those putting money towards it see it as an ordinary building that agents my opinion too.

What more do you want? You have Imam Rauf's word and he's been in Tribeca for over 20 years.

690

cliffster Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:01:56pm

re: #676 Killgore Trout

Alkohal feedz mah brane und makes my intelekt awesome!

bullshit. if that were it, I would have come up with the unified field theory by now.

691

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:02:10pm

re: #680 thelacritic

They aren't going to explain anything right now. aqny answer they give wou ld taken by Geller and Co. as proof that then are evil, no matter wgat they said.

692

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:02:20pm

re: #680 thelacritic

No, I have not made up my mind. And no one has answered my questions.

bull dung. your questions have been answered eleventy times. your inability to use a simple search function is stinging my nostrils...

693

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:03:33pm

re: #686 swamprat

Have to agree. And they hate the Sufi. And this particular Sufi worked as an envoy for President Bush. ( Bush was the one who stood on a stack of rubble, with a bullhorn and told America that he would avenge our dead)
So the theory is that Bush hired this terrorist imam to represent him and now the imam wants to build a shrine to the terrorists. Let me know when Elvis shows up driving the UFO.
//Yeah, the mosque is certainly a wahibbist temple. With a swimming pool and a gift shoppe.

Don't forget the basketball court with Jihadi Point Guards.

694

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:03:48pm

re: #691 Dark_Falcon

They aren't going to explain anything right now. aqny answer they give wou ld taken by Geller and Co. as proof that then are evil, no matter wgat they said.

lol, can you pour me one too;)

695

Mich-again Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:05:25pm

re: #680 thelacritic

Let's say the people putting their money towards this Islamic community center want this to e a symbol of some sort, that would affect my opinion.

Its a place or worship. Of course its a symbol of "some sort". Was ever one built that wasn't?

696

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:05:36pm

re: #680 thelacritic

No, I have not made up my mind. And no one has answered my questions. Let's say the people putting their money towards this Islamic community center want this to e a symbol of some sort, that would affect my opinion. If those putting money towards it see it as an ordinary building that agents my opinion too.

No one has answered your questions because the questions are not relevant to anything.

Are there perhaps some investors putting their money toward this community center who perhaps want it to be a symbol of some sort?

Maybe. And . . . ? So what?

The person who is directing this effort has said what his vision is for this, and I have seen nothing, not one thing, zip, zilch, zero, nada, to indicate he is telling anything but the truth.

The only arguments I've seen opposed to this, are emotional ones (or just plain silly ones).

There no reason for the outrage about this project to have reached the level it's reached. None.

A more practical approach would be to say what your objections are, and ask if there are any reasons why you should reconsider those particular objections. I suspect you would get a lot of responses, and then, well, you make your decision.

This assumes, of course, that you are seriously wanting information about this. This topic has been discussed in these threads many times over a period of several weeks; you may do a search and look through them, there's lots of discussion that's already taken place about this that you might find illuminating.

Or, just hang around and ask irrelevant questions. You're probably gonna get yelled at.

697

tnguitarist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:06:17pm

re: #680 thelacritic

No, I have not made up my mind. And no one has answered my questions. Let's say the people putting their money towards this Islamic community center want this to e a symbol of some sort, that would affect my opinion. If those putting money towards it see it as an ordinary building that agents my opinion too.

You know what? Whether someone is against the center or not, is this the road we want to start traveling down? Not only would people have to obtain the proper permits, but they would have to submit their intentions and thoughts as well?

Tell me how we are supposed to come by this information. Do we read their minds. Trust their answer? Perhaps we should torture it out of them....

Will this be required of everyone or just Muslims? That's the down side to that crazy Constitution of ours. All those rules apply equally.

698

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:06:24pm

re: #691 Dark_Falcon

They aren't going to explain anything right now. aqny answer they give wou ld taken by Geller and Co. as proof that then are evil, no matter wgat they said.

DF, might be time for some sleep.
LOL.

699

prairiefire Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:07:28pm

re: #680 thelacritic

It will be a symbol for the folks that have their mind set to the idea of Islamic domination, whether that was intended or not. What about the African Americans that find the Confederate flag a symbol of oppression? They are told to grow up and get over it.

700

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:07:48pm

re: #680 thelacritic

No, I have not made up my mind. And no one has answered my questions. Let's say the people putting their money towards this Islamic community center want this to e a symbol of some sort, that would affect my opinion. If those putting money towards it see it as an ordinary building that agents my opinion too.

Is English your first language?

701

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:07:52pm

re: #694 Aceofwhat?

lol, can you pour me one too;)

re: #698 reine.de.tout

DF, might be time for some sleep.
LOL.

I think the alligator has him shaking.

702

Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:08:02pm

Charlie Brooker's colum is amusingly apt.

The planned "ultra-mosque" will be a staggering 5,600ft tall – more than five times higher than the tallest building on Earth – and will be capped with an immense dome of highly-polished solid gold, carefully positioned to bounce sunlight directly toward the pavement, where it will blind pedestrians and fry small dogs. The main structure will be delimited by 600 minarets, each shaped like an upraised middle finger, and housing a powerful amplifier: when synchronised, their combined sonic might will be capable of relaying the muezzin's call to prayer at such deafening volume, it will be clearly audible in the Afghan mountains, where thousands of terrorists are poised to celebrate by running around with scarves over their faces, firing AK-47s into the sky and yelling whatever the foreign word for "victory" is.

703

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:08:34pm

re: #689 Gus 802

What more do you want? You have Imam Rauf's word and he's been in Tribeca for over 20 years.

Again, bottom line.

Moderate Muslim staring them straight in the face, and it's not enough.

704

prairiefire Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:09:03pm

That little alligator was cute. I don't think he will be amused with the Chicago winters.

705

Escaped Hillbilly Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:10:31pm

re: #658 elbruce
I listed other people's reasons that they posted here and that I am willing to consider. However, to me this building is stupid. You should know me though. I tend to think everything related to religion, politics and sports is stupid. I can understand why you believe standing up for the Constitution is reason enough to support it even as I disagree. But the WalMart argument was to illustrate a particular point that they already own the land and can do with it what they wish. (Just because you can doesn't mean you should.) Doesn't mean you shouldn't either. I was not trying to compare WalMart to a religion but for all of me it might as well be.

706

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:10:56pm

re: #675 Escaped Hillbilly

I don't know what is right. God, I wish I did. I said having the right to do something uner the law does not necessarily make it right. So, if I think they ought not do something, I am not advocating they be denied their rights but rather hoping they will choose not to do it. A lot of folks seem to think that if they throw that (legal right) out, they win the argument by default.

Here's what happens if Park51 packs up and moves somewhere else:

First of all, for most of the vaguely uninformed people who never heard anything more than "muslims tried to build a mosque on ground zero," that's all they'll ever hear. It drops out of the news cycle, leaving the lies standing as the presumed truth. That means that for years going forward, a lot of people across the country are just going to vaguely remember that the right wing put a stop to an attempt by Al Qaeda to plant a big "FUCK YOU" flag on the WTC site.

Secondly, it will embolden the bigots. They will (as they have been) start pushing Muslims across the United States to move their communities "elsewhere." In the spirit of concern and cooperation that you've been explaining to us, they'll have to do that. I don't know where they'll end up going. Perhaps we can create some special camps so that Muslims can practice their faith without offending anybody.

Thirdly, the Muslim world in the Middle East will be put on notice that America doesn't want to allow even the most tolerant and cooperative Muslims to practice tolerance and cooperation; they're just not wanted. Yet again, we will have proven to them that all our talk of rights and equality are a big fat lie, and terrorist recruitment will swell.

Here's what happens if Park51 continues to build and ignores the bigots:

First of all, as the bigots keep pushing the story, journalists facing deadlines to submit new angles on the same old story will end up submitting more and more relevant information. How far away is two Manhattan blocks, anyway? Let's walk it with a camera and look around. What are the mission and vision statements of the Park51 project and the Cordoba Initiative? What's the background and views of this scary "Imam" behind the whole thing? How is he viewed in the Islamic world? What is involved in Sufism, as opposed to other strains of Islam? Once all that hits the MSM, the bigots will be completely exposed as nothing more than bigots. We've got two months left, which is practically "forever" in news-cycle world.

Later on, once it's built, the Park51 project can get about the business laid out in its mission and vision statement. Folks in New York can learn more about Islam, and Muslims in New York can learn more about both an appropriate interpretation of their own religion, as well as the history and thought of the Western World. In addition, the many interfaith activities planned can help bring them together, promoting face-to-face understanding.

This is a slam dunk. There is zero right on the side of the critics. It's absolutely the right thing to do across the board.

If you want to sit on the fence, go ahead. But it's always worth noting which side the self-proclaimed fence-sitters are engaging with and who's mind they're trying to change. If you want to go to freepers or redstate and wring your hands about how you're not sure either way, that would be a completely different thing than doing it here.

707

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:11:28pm

re: #680 thelacritic

EVERYBODY claims it will be "symbol".
It certainly will be a symbol.
The builder says he wants it to be a symbol of unification.
If you think building it is a bad idea, stopping it will be a worse one.
This building won't be a "symbol";

It's going to be a Rorschach test.

708

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:11:43pm

re: #703 Stanley Sea

Again, bottom line.

Moderate Muslim staring them straight in the face, and it's not enough.

Yes. A moderate Muslim, American citizen, Imam since the mid-80's.

709

What, me worry? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:12:20pm

re: #702 negativ

Charlie Brooker's colum is amusingly apt.

You forgot this.

Youtube Video

710

Mich-again Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:12:58pm

re: #667 elbruce

I categorize them as intolerant extremist radicals who twist their religion to try to start a broad war between the Middle East and the West, with mass casualties on both sides. That's the group they belong in. Most of the bigots behind opposition to Park51 are in the same category.

So you think the end goal of the Cordoba House opponents in the USA is a major war in the ME? Thats stretching it too far there. My best guess is if you asked one of them what they wanted to see happen in the ME, they would say "who gives a f*ck!"

711

cliffster Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:13:17pm

re: #703 Stanley Sea

Again, bottom line.

Moderate Muslim staring them straight in the face, and it's not enough.

This is, by far, the lamest issue ever to have become this big a controversy. Might as well have some Christian/Muslim reality shows.

712

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:13:47pm

re: #699 prairiefire

It will be a symbol for the folks that have their mind set to the idea of Islamic domination, whether that was intended or not. What about the African Americans that find the Confederate flag a symbol of oppression? They are told to grow up and get over it by the same people who are freeking about Cordoba House.

FIFY

713

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:14:43pm

re: #705 Escaped Hillbilly

But the WalMart argument was to illustrate a particular point that they already own the land and can do with it what they wish.

If they didn't want something like a Wal-Mart to be built on that land, then it shouldn't have been private land up for sale to begin with. That's what happens. But it would have been avoidable with some forethought and funding.

714

prairiefire Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:14:57pm

re: #712 SanFranciscoZionist

Thank you, ma'am.

715

sagehen Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:15:12pm

re: #661 marjoriemoon

He's right, but Gonzales isn't really a popular fellow, I think with anyone. As I recall there was perjury charges and spying on Americans?

Firing a bunch of US Attorneys for reasons he didn't want to admit to out loud -- and then "don't recall"ing 83 times in one day during congressional hearings.

716

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:15:36pm

re: #696 reine.de.tout

The source of the funding is highly relevant.

717

thelacritic Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:15:45pm

re: #268 WindUpBird

This is a whole lot of saying nothing, and some real tortured grammar as well

Also, there's a lot of muslims in manhattan, maybe that's why they want to build it there

you know, for the muslims in manhattan.

Haha, "tortured grammar," I'm sorry about my typos from my device but it's great you can turn it into more ad hominem attacks against me beyond "troll.". Fine you've made up your mind and everyone who disagrees with you is a "bigot"

718

tnguitarist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:18:34pm

re: #711 cliffster

This is, by far, the lamest issue ever to have become this big a controversy. Might as well have some Christian/Muslim reality shows.

Wife swap!

719

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:19:28pm

re: #707 swamprat

EVERYBODY claims it will be "symbol".
It certainly will be a symbol.
The builder says he wants it to be a symbol of unification.
If you think building it is a bad idea, stopping it will be a worse one.
This building won't be a "symbol";

It's going to be a Rorschach test.

I think you mean "litmus".

720

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:19:54pm

re: #715 sagehen

Firing a bunch of US Attorneys for reasons he didn't want to admit to out loud -- and then "don't recall"ing 83 times in one day during congressional hearings.

the Prez can fire US Attorneys as he sees fit. this is the same Gonzales against whom the Justice dept. recently announced they won't be filing charges, right?

Clinton fired a bunch of US Attorneys, too. Were you similarly outraged?

721

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:19:56pm

re: #687 freetoken

Well said. I for one think the neolithic and bronze-age religious thinking and religious dogmas are way past their sell-by date, yet I am really hoping that the Park51 project goes ahead. The anti-Islam protesters are displaying such an ugly yet perfect example of entire reason Rights are enshrined in the Constitution and why we force our laws into conforming to those Rights.

Unfortunately those neolithic views are becoming more, not less, popular.

722

Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:20:02pm

re: #718 tnguitarist

Wife swap!

Just when I had almost cleaned this out of my mind:

Youtube Video

723

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:20:49pm

re: #719 Cato the Elder

I think you mean "litmus".

No, I think he had it right in that a Rorschach test will be seen differently by different people.

724

reine.de.tout Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:21:35pm

re: #711 cliffster

This is, by far, the lamest issue ever to have become this big a controversy. Might as well have some Christian/Muslim reality shows.

Isn't it, though?

725

Escaped Hillbilly Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:23:00pm

re: #706 elbruce
Fence sitter. Nice. Freeper? You can't talk without insulting. Which was my freaking point in my first post. Where I do have an opinion is that the American system works best when people on all sides work together and don't scream at each other or provoke each other or assume the other guy is the enemy just because we disagree. I'm not going away. I just got back. Some other posters have made some good points which I will think about. But I don't respond well to insults.

726

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:24:33pm

re: #722 negativ

Just when I had almost cleaned this out of my mind:

[Video]

This is painful to watch.

727

Escaped Hillbilly Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:25:00pm

re: #713 elbruce
True. Probably part of why they won in court. But, not everyone agreed. It was a battleground and battlegrounds are historically treated with reverence in our culture.

728

Escaped Hillbilly Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:26:17pm

re: #722 negativ

One of my favorites.

729

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:26:19pm

re: #716 Spare O'Lake

The source of the funding is highly relevant.

Absolutely! What do you got?

Implications of terrorist funding combined with $2.89 will get you unlimited coffee at many Denny's restaurants.

Of course, actual, you know, factual proof, of this sort of allegation would get the builders thrown in jail. But so far, I have only seen baseless allegations. Not that anyone has looked into this in any depth .

730

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:30:19pm

re: #685 Spare O'Lake

re: #667 elbruce
I categorize them as intolerant extremist radicals who twist their religion to try to start a broad war between the Middle East and the West, with mass casualties on both sides. That's the group they belong in. Most of the bigots behind opposition to Park51 are in the same category.

What evidence is there that those who oppose it are trying to start a broad war between the ME and the West?

I thought not.
You are full of crap.

731

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:31:06pm

re: #719 Cato the Elder

I think you mean "litmus".

I see a big, throbbing edifice, piercing a cloudy sky, sowing peace and Islamic kind thoughts, while people wearing large purple sombreros dance in knee high sneakers.

732

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:31:52pm

re: #691 Dark_Falcon

They aren't going to explain anything right now. any answer they give would taken by Geller and Co. as proof that then are evil, no matter what they said.

PIMF

733

sagehen Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:32:53pm

re: #720 Aceofwhat?

the Prez can fire US Attorneys as he sees fit. this is the same Gonzales against whom the Justice dept. recently announced they won't be filing charges, right?

Clinton fired a bunch of US Attorneys, too. Were you similarly outraged?

Firing and replacing all 83 of them in a clean sweep when you first enter office is normal; every president has done it.

Firing 9 of them chosen in particular because they're investigating corrupt members of congress in your party, or because they wouldn't gin up enough evidence to indict members of the other party on a politically convenient timetable... yeah, that's not normal. That's why he didn't want to admit to it out loud. That's why he "didn't recall" 83 times in one day.

The Justice Department won't be filing charges because it's awfully hard to prove perjury on someone who claims amnesia. Even though anybody with any sense believes he probably did recall.

734

cliffster Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:33:02pm

re: #732 Dark_Falcon

PIMF

drugs starting to wear off? ;)

735

Escaped Hillbilly Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:33:11pm

re: #732 Dark_Falcon

PIMF

Unfortunately, you're probably right. I don't know why I keep forgetting common sense aint.

736

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:35:01pm

re: #721 Spare O'Lake

Unfortunately those neolithic views are becoming more, not less, popular.

And I see you as a cheerleader.

737

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:35:14pm

re: #733 sagehen

Firing and replacing all 83 of them in a clean sweep when you first enter office is normal; every president has done it.

Firing 9 of them chosen in particular because they're investigating corrupt members of congress in your party, or because they wouldn't gin up enough evidence to indict members of the other party on a politically convenient timetable... yeah, that's not normal. That's why he didn't want to admit to it out loud. That's why he "didn't recall" 83 times in one day.

The Justice Department won't be filing charges because it's awfully hard to prove perjury on someone who claims amnesia. Even though anybody with any sense believes he probably did recall.

yes. he is guilty of not simply firing them all.

yeesh.

738

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:35:55pm

re: #729 swamprat

Absolutely! What do you got?

Implications of terrorist funding combined with $2.89 will get you unlimited coffee at many Denny's restaurants.

Of course, actual, you know, factual proof, of this sort of allegation would get the builders thrown in jail. But so far, I have only seen baseless allegations. Not that anyone has looked into this in any depth .

The funding has allegedly not been raised yet so keep your shirt on. Its sources are highly relevant and even the developer tacitly admitted this when he pledged transparency.
Follow the money, dude.

739

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:37:38pm

re: #705 Escaped Hillbilly

You should know me though.

I'm new here.

But my opinion on people who say that all religion is stupid is pretty much the same as my opinion on religious people who say that believing anything other than what they believe is stupid. Which is to say, I'm agin' it.

re: #725 Escaped Hillbilly

Fence sitter. Nice. Freeper? You can't talk without insulting. Which was my freaking point in my first post.

I didn't accuse you of being one of them. I was pointing out that your "middle road" is being directed at us, not them. Now, I could be wrong. Perhaps you've got other tabs or windows open where you're also presenting a "middle ground" position to the wingnut sites. But I doubt it. If I'm wrong, please provide links.

740

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:38:25pm

re: #718 tnguitarist

This is, by far, the lamest issue ever to have become this big a controversy. Might as well have some Christian/Muslim reality shows.

Wife swap!

Prediction: we'll see that episode within a few years from now. I'll definitely tune in.

741

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:38:32pm

re: #720 Aceofwhat?

Clinton fired a bunch of US Attorneys, too. Were you similarly outraged?

Was it based on their political party?

742

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:39:21pm

re: #741 elbruce

Clinton fired a bunch of US Attorneys, too. Were you similarly outraged?

Was it based on their political party?

presidents fire US Attorneys. i yawn. as should you.

743

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:40:32pm

re: #738 Spare O'Lake

The funding has allegedly not been raised yet so keep your shirt on. Its sources are highly relevant and even the developer tacitly admitted this when he pledged transparency.
Follow the money, dude.

Spare, you are not obeying the internet rules.

You state your point. Others have proven it's faults.

You ignore. Take a few hours break. Then repost.

It's really lame.

744

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:41:14pm

re: #741 elbruce

Clinton fired a bunch of US Attorneys, too. Were you similarly outraged?

Was it based on their political party?

oops, i thought you were restating that...now i think you may have simply quoted me.

in that case...was it based on their party? probably, except Clinton was smart enough to just fire them all in order to avoid the appearance of partisanship. Convict Gonzales of being an idiot if you want, but let's not pretend that this isn't business as usual.

745

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:43:01pm

re: #734 cliffster

drugs starting to wear off? ;)

No, I'm not actually in pain, I just got sleepy. So I got up and shaved (so I won't have to do that in the morning). Being on my feet for 15 minutes woke me up enough to keep going here for a time.

746

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:43:55pm

re: #743 Stanley Sea

Spare, you are not obeying the internet rules.

You state your point. Others have proven it's faults.

You ignore. Take a few hours break. Then repost.

It's really lame.

Stunley, you don't make the rules for me or anyone else.
If you care to respond to my post, do so...otherwise, shove off.

747

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:44:30pm

re: #730 Spare O'Lake

re: #719 Cato the Elder

I think you mean "litmus".

Sufi's ; What a beautiful symbol of peace and unification!
Anti-islamists; Eek! a mosque! The terrorists won!
Seattle guy; Those idiots couldn't stop those poor oppressed souls
Constitutionalist; The Constitution won!
Whahibists; We won! But we must take this mosque over!
New Yorker; The tuna sandwich looked nice; maybe after I swim.

748

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:45:03pm

re: #738 Spare O'Lake

The funding has allegedly not been raised yet so keep your shirt on.

Oh, it's on. Who's behind that word "allegedly" there? I'd like to know who's alleging that.

re: #738 Spare O'Lake

Its sources are highly relevant and even the developer tacitly admitted this when he pledged transparency.

I'm gonna quote the NY Post on this one:

Sharif El-Gamal, the head of Soho Properties, first came forward in 2006 seeking to buy the empty building at 45-47 Park Place, said Melvin Pomerantz, whose family owned the property.
Pomerantz said El-Gamal eventually raised $4.8 million cash for 45-47 Park Place. El- Gamal paid an extra $700,000 to take over the lease with Con Ed for the building next door. The lease expires in 2071.

Basically, they've already purchased half, and paid for a long-term lease on the other half.

749

superluser Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:46:06pm

re: #8 Killgore Trout

You know, the way they're yelling here, it sort of sounds like they're calling out ``no mas guerre!'' It's nice to see Republicans calling for an end to war (and in Spanish!) for a change.

(Yes, I know it's actually supposed to be guerra.)

750

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:46:41pm

re: #744 Aceofwhat?

in that case...was it based on their party? probably, except Clinton was smart enough to just fire them all in order to avoid the appearance of partisanship. Convict Gonzales of being an idiot if you want, but let's not pretend that this isn't business as usual.

So... what you're saying is that Clinton fired all the U.S. attorneys just to get rid of the Republican ones? Brilliant! But either way, incredibly unprovable. Unlike just firing a bunch of them specifically for being of one political party rather than another.

751

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:47:00pm

re: #749 superluser

You know, the way they're yelling here, it sort of sounds like they're calling out ``no mas guerre!'' It's nice to see Republicans calling for an end to war (and in Spanish!) for a change.

(Yes, I know it's actually supposed to be guerra.)

Now, if they were Canadians,they'd be yelling, "No mosque here, eh."

752

Mich-again Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:48:56pm

Heres my take. Let the Cordoba House move forward, applying the same local, state and federal regulations as any other house of worship. There is no basis to put a particular religion at a legal advantage or disadvantage. That Cordoba House is an Islamic Center shouldn't drive a process any different than if it were Catholic, Baptist, Hindu, Sikh, Jewish, etc. That this is such a big issue is kind of disturbing to me because I didn't realize how many people are worse than ignorant of what the Constitution says.

Now, how did it come to this. Its too big of a movement to credit Krazy Pam and her bigot blog brigade. Its been a drumbeat for years, the never-ending story of death and destruction at the hands of the radical Islamists. And while the Moderate Muslims would make sure to issue statements that distanced themselves from the radicals and the Islamist agenda, they always seemed to do it tactfully with just the right juxtaposition of words so as to not become targets themselves by speaking out too harshly against the jihadis out for their evil. It became pretty obvious the moderates were/are intimidated, even scared of the monsters sharing their same religion. And barring a very public, vocal, moderate Muslim giving his side of the story, over time the drumbeat of bad news led the masses to believe there were no other significant voices in Islam, and all are beholden to the jihadi agenda.

Not that I agree with that, I'm just trying to figure out why this has turned out like it did.

753

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:51:49pm

re: #736 Stanley Sea

And I see you as a cheerleader.

Stunley, I see you as a fellow with nothing useful to say.

754

noquacks Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:52:25pm

You would think, if they were really convinced of what they espouse, that they'd be running for cover, away from the Muslim terrorist.

755

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:54:31pm

re: #752 Mich-again

Now, how did it come to this. Its too big of a movement to credit Krazy Pam and her bigot blog brigade.

I'd imagine that Palin, Gingrich, and many others helped considerably.

re: #752 Mich-again

And while the Moderate Muslims would make sure to issue statements that distanced themselves from the radicals and the Islamist agenda, they always seemed to do it tactfully with just the right juxtaposition of words so as to not become targets themselves by speaking out too harshly against the jihadis out for their evil.

I read somewhere that Imam Rauf, when an interviewer demanded that he denounce Hamas, demurred saying that since his job pretty much involves building bridges between Islam and the West, it wouldn't do him much good to lambaste one side on behalf of the other. I imagine a lot of moderate Muslims are in a similar position.

756

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:56:13pm

re: #748 elbruce

The land and existing building only has been purchased, so far as I am aware. The demo and construction will cost a fortune and those funds have not been raised yet, according to the developer.
But you knew that, didn't you?

757

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:56:54pm

re: #753 Spare O'Lake

Stunley, I see you as a fellow with nothing useful to say.

compared to? you?

All I can hope is you have been involved with activities to keep Ms. Sharia far away!

758

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:59:03pm

re: #751 SanFranciscoZionist

Now, if they were Canadians,they'd be yelling, "No mosque here, eh."

Canadians would never carry on like you goofy Merkins.

759

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:59:07pm

re: #756 Spare O'Lake

The land and existing building only has been purchased, so far as I am aware. The demo and construction will cost a fortune and those funds have not been raised yet, according to the developer.
But you knew that, didn't you?

I donated tonight! Watch out Spare!

760

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:59:26pm

re: #756 Spare O'Lake

The land and existing building only has been purchased, so far as I am aware. The demo and construction will cost a fortune and those funds have not been raised yet, according to the developer.
But you knew that, didn't you?

Their website does mention that they have not started fundraising yet.

A week or so ago, there were several people here demanding to know where the money the mosque had socked away had come from.

Seems we've now switched to wondering where the money they may raise in the future might come from.

761

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 8:59:39pm

re: #750 elbruce

So... what you're saying is that Clinton fired all the U.S. attorneys just to get rid of the Republican ones? Brilliant! But either way, incredibly unprovable. Unlike just firing a bunch of them specifically for being of one political party rather than another.

or, we can go back to where presidents can fire US Attorneys as they please.

yaay law!!

762

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:00:04pm

re: #755 elbruce

Yeah. He plays all sides. He was a diplomat of sorts (for Bush, no less). I suspect he is avoiding pissing off a possible Saudi source. If true, it is not illegal. And being cagey doesn't make you a terrorist.

763

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:00:16pm

re: #751 SanFranciscoZionist

Now, if they were Canadians,they'd be yelling, "No mosque here, eh."

"take off, you heathen hosers"

764

Mich-again Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:00:20pm

re: #755 elbruce

I read somewhere that Imam Rauf, when an interviewer demanded that he denounce Hamas, demurred saying that since his job pretty much involves building bridges between Islam and the West, it wouldn't do him much good to lambaste one side on behalf of the other.

And I can see why, but the is NY and its kind of like asking someone if they are a Yankees fan or Red Sox fan and they say they just want both teams to get along. Not going to make anyone happy with an answer like that.

765

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:00:43pm

re: #756 Spare O'Lake

The land and existing building only has been purchased, so far as I am aware. The demo and construction will cost a fortune and those funds have not been raised yet, according to the developer.

I would imagine that buying two lots on Park Place would be the major financial hurdle involved. Compared to that, construction shouldn't be a problem.

766

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:01:12pm

re: #757 Stanley Sea

compared to? you?

All I can hope is you have been involved with activities to keep Ms. Sharia far away!

More drivel, Stunley? Is that all you've got between your ears?

767

sagehen Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:02:54pm

re: #737 Aceofwhat?

yes. he is guilty of not simply firing them all.

yeesh.

Firing them midway through their terms is *not* normal.

The one in San Diego, who prosecuted Duke Cunningham and was in the middle of an investigation of Duncan Hunter, was fired with no reason given. She was replaced by somebody who cancelled all corruption investigations. Even the SAC of the local FBI field office went on the record, gave attributed quotes to local media, that it was a political firing specifically to get corrupt officials a pass.

The one in LA was in the middle of an investigation of a congressman in Redlands, was offered a senior partnership with $1 million signing bonus at that congressman's defense counsel's office. Suddenly, all the evidence she'd had any hand in gathering was inadmissible.

The one in New Mexico was fired for refusing to discuss an incomplete investigation with the senator who was urging him to plan an indictment announcement for the 3rd week of October (that one there's an e-mail trail of the senator asking Karl Rove to get rid of him, and Rove telling Gonzales' deputy to do so).

Etc.

The one in San Francisco appeared to have been due to actually being so bad at his job that every federal judge in the district had signed a petition asking that he be removed. But that's the only one that was for cause.

Then there was the time (before he was AG, when he was still white house counsel) that he went to the hospital to talk to John Ashcroft, while JA was in the recovery room from major surgery and hadn't even come out of the anesthetic yet, and tried to get him to sign authorization for something JA had refused repeatedly to approve. Something JA had said, to the president's face, that's unconstitutional and I'd resign before I'd approve it.

Four of Gonzales' deputies had to resign, as did he. The OPR wrote a scathing report. And Gonzales hasn't been able to find another job in law. Imagine that, a former attorney general who can't find any law firm in the entire country that would want him on their letterhead.

It takes either total ignorance of the case, or extreme partisanship, to defend him.

768

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:03:08pm

re: #766 Spare O'Lake

More drivel, Stunley? Is that all you've got between your ears?

It's quite instructive to note how Sea employs snark while you employ insults...lest you think i'm the sort who downdings in silence.

769

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:04:52pm

re: #759 Stanley Sea

I donated tonight! Watch out Spare!

New headline: Ground Zero Mega-Mosque Funded by Lizards!

770

sagehen Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:04:57pm

re: #750 elbruce

So... what you're saying is that Clinton fired all the U.S. attorneys just to get rid of the Republican ones? Brilliant! But either way, incredibly unprovable. Unlike just firing a bunch of them specifically for being of one political party rather than another.

The nine in question were all Republicans; they were all Bush's own appointees. He fired them for doing their jobs too well.

771

thelacritic Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:04:59pm

re: #700 Cato the Elder

Is English your first language?

Nice "grammar gotcha" Apparently you've never suffered from the ill effects of an iPhone entering the completely wrong word for you. Sorry you weren't able to figure out my point (even though it was obviously easy to figure out my intended word) and had to get cranky and rude with your response.

772

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:05:20pm

re: #752 Mich-again

Heres my take. Let the Cordoba House move forward, applying the same local, state and federal regulations as any other house of worship. There is no basis to put a particular religion at a legal advantage or disadvantage. That Cordoba House is an Islamic Center shouldn't drive a process any different than if it were Catholic, Baptist, Hindu, Sikh, Jewish, etc. That this is such a big issue is kind of disturbing to me because I didn't realize how many people are worse than ignorant of what the Constitution says.

Now, how did it come to this. Its too big of a movement to credit Krazy Pam and her bigot blog brigade. Its been a drumbeat for years, the never-ending story of death and destruction at the hands of the radical Islamists. And while the Moderate Muslims would make sure to issue statements that distanced themselves from the radicals and the Islamist agenda, they always seemed to do it tactfully with just the right juxtaposition of words so as to not become targets themselves by speaking out too harshly against the jihadis out for their evil. It became pretty obvious the moderates were/are intimidated, even scared of the monsters sharing their same religion. And barring a very public, vocal, moderate Muslim giving his side of the story, over time the drumbeat of bad news led the masses to believe there were no other significant voices in Islam, and all are beholden to the jihadi agenda.

Not that I agree with that, I'm just trying to figure out why this has turned out like it did.

The problems with that last are multiple:

1. Any Moderate saying that would be dubbed an "apostate" and would draw a deathmark from the jihadists. That makes other Muslims afraid to associate with them, for fear of being cast out or killed.

2. Israel. Even many Muslims who are otherwise moderate hate Israel with a passion and want it destroyed. The gulf between most Muslims and most Americans would make it hard for someone to be taken as a genuine moderate by both said parties.

3. The polarization of the debate. There are too many on both sides who don't want a compromise. Both the Muslim and Western sides have radicals who want no compromise and will kill to prevent compromise. And it only takes one attack by radicals to make many compromise deals fall apart. It's called the "terrorist veto".

773

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:07:32pm

re: #770 sagehen

The nine in question were all Republicans; they were all Bush's own appointees. He fired them for doing their jobs too well.

I'm going to need a link to the list of U.S. Attorneys fired by Clinton, then.

774

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:08:48pm

re: #767 sagehen

The one in New Mexico was fired for refusing to discuss an incomplete investigation with the senator who was urging him to plan an indictment announcement for the 3rd week of October (that one there's an e-mail trail of the senator asking Karl Rove to get rid of him, and Rove telling Gonzales' deputy to do so).

Oh, you mean where the new appointee picked up the shitty investigation and actually got some results? Fouratt was the new appointee, i think. I think he won some convictions, too. My stars, why wasn't he fired??

Sometimes people ask for people to be fired because they suck at their jobs. I understand that's a sentiment which offends certain liberal sensibilities, but what can you do...

775

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:09:06pm

re: #760 SanFranciscoZionist

Their website does mention that they have not started fundraising yet.

A week or so ago, there were several people here demanding to know where the money the mosque had socked away had come from.

Seems we've now switched to wondering where the money they may raise in the future might come from.

The issue of the source of the construction and operating funding is widely admitted to be highly relevant, isn't it?

776

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:09:26pm

re: #771 thelacritic

re: #700 Cato the Elder

Is English your first language?

Nice "grammar gotcha" Apparently you've never suffered from the ill effects of an iPhone entering the completely wrong word for you. Sorry you weren't able to figure out my point (even though it was obviously easy to figure out my intended word) and had to get cranky and rude with your response.

Remember folks, if while providing an extensive and precise point-by-point criticism of the arguments presented by someone, if in passing you should happen to also mention their spelling or grammar, that's all they'll respond to.

777

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:11:26pm

re: #775 Spare O'Lake

The issue of the source of the construction and operating funding is widely admitted to be highly relevant, isn't it?

Nope.

Relevant to what?

778

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:12:48pm

re: #775 Spare O'Lake

The issue of the source of the construction and operating funding is widely admitted to be highly relevant, isn't it?

No.

779

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:13:35pm

Who posted the Charlie Brooker link? I'm just getting into it now, and had to stop at this part.

Perhaps spatial reality functions differently on the other side of the Atlantic, but here in London, something that is "two minutes' walk and round a corner" from something else isn't actually "in" the same place at all. I once had a poo in a pub about two minutes' walk from Buckingham Palace. I was not subsequently arrested and charged with crapping directly onto the Queen's pillow. That's how "distance" works in Britain.

LOL, wingnuts. That should have been all we needed to say to begin with.

780

sagehen Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:13:51pm

re: #773 elbruce

I'm going to need a link to the list of U.S. Attorneys fired by Clinton, then.

When Clinton first came to office, all of GHWB's US Attorney's were nearing the ends of their terms, and they weren't renewed. That's normal. The appointment is for 4 years, so they're almsot always for the duration of the administration that appointed them plus a couple of months.

Firing them in the middle of their term, until this particular rash of firings, had always been extremely rare and only for cause.

781

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:15:10pm

re: #765 elbruce

I would imagine that buying two lots on Park Place would be the major financial hurdle involved. Compared to that, construction shouldn't be a problem.

$100 million+.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

782

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:17:51pm

re: #780 sagehen

When Clinton first came to office, all of GHWB's US Attorney's were nearing the ends of their terms, and they weren't renewed. That's normal. The appointment is for 4 years, so they're almsot always for the duration of the administration that appointed them plus a couple of months.

Firing them in the middle of their term, until this particular rash of firings, had always been extremely rare and only for cause.

Unlikely... Aceofwhat? assured us all that firing someone and declining to re-hire them is the exact same thing.

He also apparently yearns for a world where every time the Presidency changes hands, every U.S. Attorney in the country gets shitcanned.

783

Cato the Elder Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:19:42pm

re: #776 elbruce

Remember folks, if while providing an extensive and precise point-by-point criticism of the arguments presented by someone, if in passing you should happen to also mention their spelling or grammar, that's all they'll respond to.

"They say you should never hit a man with a closed fist, but it is, on occasion, high-larious."
--Capt. Mal Reynolds, "Firefly"

One way I point out to people that their "arguments" are ridiculous and on no account to be taken seriously is to mock their diction, grammar, or spelling.

Bad syntax and tortured grammar are nearly infallible signs of poor thinking, and this gentleman has shown more than enough of both on this thread.

784

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:21:11pm

re: #776 elbruce

Remember folks, if while providing an extensive and precise point-by-point criticism of the arguments presented by someone, if in passing you should happen to also mention their spelling or grammar, that's all they'll respond to.

well done, there-

785

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:23:43pm

re: #780 sagehen

When Clinton first came to office, all of GHWB's US Attorney's were nearing the ends of their terms, and they weren't renewed. That's normal. The appointment is for 4 years, so they're almsot always for the duration of the administration that appointed them plus a couple of months.

nah. normal would be firing only the ones that sucked. less normal is firing them all. once that's ok (and it's ok with me...they serve at the Prez's discretion), what's not on the table?

also, i only shot down one of your examples because that's all i had the energy for...it's late here. the ease of my riposte should give you pause.

786

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:24:50pm

re: #777 elbruce

re: #778 SanFranciscoZionist

“I support the statement made by the Interfaith Alliance that ‘We agree with the ADL that there is a need for transparency about who is funding the effort to build this Islamic center,” Pelosi said.
[Link: blogs.abcnews.com...]

787

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:25:05pm

re: #782 elbruce

Big, bloomin' deal. US Attorneys serve at the pleasure of the president. If he decides he wants to remove one to hand the office off as a political plum, he may do so. If he decides he does like how one is doing his job, he can remove them. It's his right. The US Attorney matter was and remains a nontroversy, ginned up by the Democrats to attack George W. Bush.

788

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:27:16pm

re: #786 Spare O'Lake

re: #778 SanFranciscoZionist

“I support the statement made by the Interfaith Alliance that ‘We agree with the ADL that there is a need for transparency about who is funding the effort to build this Islamic center,” Pelosi said.
[Link: blogs.abcnews.com...]

OK. Nancy Pelosi wants transparency.

789

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:28:35pm

re: #786 Spare O'Lake

re: #778 SanFranciscoZionist

“I support the statement made by the Interfaith Alliance that ‘We agree with the ADL that there is a need for transparency about who is funding the effort to build this Islamic center,” Pelosi said.

I disagree with both Pelosi and the ADL. The ADL specifically is siding with defamation on this issue, particularly the defamation that the Park51 project is in any way associated with the perpetrators of 9/11.

Now, if we want to pass a law saying that all religious organizations across the country should open their books and make their donor lists public, that would be a different thing entirely. Try that and see how well it works.

790

Aceofwhat? Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:29:32pm

re: #787 Dark_Falcon

Big, bloomin' deal. US Attorneys serve at the pleasure of the president. If he decides he wants to remove one to hand the office off as a political plum, he may do so. If he decides he does like how one is doing his job, he can remove them. It's his right. The US Attorney matter was and remains a nontroversy, ginned up by the Democrats to attack George W. Bush.

bingo. fired because we don't like your tie? don't let the door hit you on the way out.

the law is the law. all of this whining...makes me sleepy...

791

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:29:48pm

re: #789 elbruce

I disagree with both Pelosi and the ADL. The ADL specifically is siding with defamation on this issue, particularly the defamation that the Park51 project is in any way associated with the perpetrators of 9/11.

Now, if we want to pass a law saying that all religious organizations across the country should open their books and make their donor lists public, that would be a different thing entirely. Try that and see how well it works.

I think the ADL made a poor call.

792

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:29:52pm

re: #788 SanFranciscoZionist

OK. Nancy Pelosi wants transparency.

LOL @ Pelosi. She's said she was going to bring transparency to Congress and has done nothing of the sort. Its just more hogwash from the league leader in hogwash.

793

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:32:23pm

re: #788 SanFranciscoZionist

OK. Nancy Pelosi wants transparency.

And almost everyone else, including you, I bet.

794

cliffster Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:32:31pm

re: #790 Aceofwhat?

bingo. fired because we don't like your tie? don't let the door hit you on the way out.

the law is the law. all of this whining...makes me sleepy...

hehe, it was fun watching the liberal goons piss themselves over this though. Even more fun watching them continue to do it..

795

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:32:41pm

re: #787 Dark_Falcon

US Attorneys serve at the pleasure of the president.

Appointed by =/= "serve at the pleasure of."

Also, I found this:

As the controversy emerged, U.S. Senators were concerned about a little-noticed provision in the re-authorization of the USA PATRIOT Act in 2006 which eliminated the 120-day term limit on interim appointments of U.S. Attorneys made by the United States Attorney General to fill vacancies. The change gave the Attorney General greater appointment powers than the President and undermined the confirmation authority of the Senate. Presidential appointees must be confirmed by the Senate, but the Attorney's General did not require Senate confirmation

Figures it would come back to the PATRIOT act...

796

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:34:06pm

re: #789 elbruce

I disagree with both Pelosi and the ADL. The ADL specifically is siding with defamation on this issue, particularly the defamation that the Park51 project is in any way associated with the perpetrators of 9/11.

Now, if we want to pass a law saying that all religious organizations across the country should open their books and make their donor lists public, that would be a different thing entirely. Try that and see how well it works.

It'll come, thanks to the zealots.

797

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:35:05pm

re: #792 Dark_Falcon

LOL @ Pelosi. She's said she was going to bring transparency to Congress and has done nothing of the sort. Its just more hogwash from the league leader in hogwash.

Oh, I don't know about that, it seems that just about all points of legislation have been hammered out at length on CSPAN and in "town hall" meetings, rather than in closed committees. Just because the transparency reveals a lot of ugliness doesn't mean it isn't transparent.

798

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:38:02pm

re: #793 Spare O'Lake

And almost everyone else, including you, I bet.

I want them to adhere to the law. Other than that, I really can't be bothered to give a damn.

799

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:38:49pm

re: #796 Spare O'Lake

It'll come, thanks to the zealots.

Why? The zealots have their own funding sources to be opaque about.

800

sagehen Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:44:25pm

re: #785 Aceofwhat?

nah. normal would be firing only the ones that sucked. less normal is firing them all. once that's ok (and it's ok with me...they serve at the Prez's discretion), what's not on the table?

also, i only shot down one of your examples because that's all i had the energy for...it's late here. the ease of my riposte should give you pause.

Usually very few of them suck. They're mostly highly competent, serious professionals -- but it's a political appointment, and replacing them when their terms run out is as ordinary as a president picking a new cabinet.

You didn't shoot down any examples; Iglesias wouldn't bring a particular indictment before the election because the investigation wasn't finished and the case wasn't ready for trial. And he wouldn't discuss it with somebody who ethics require he not discuss it with. A few months later he's fired, and a few months after that a new guy brings the indictment... wow. Astonishing how something that wasn't ready six months ago is now, after six months more work by the office, ready.

Other than the possibility that Alberto Gonzales really was ethically dubious and not particularly good at his job, can you find any rational explanation why a former Attorney General of the United States can't get hired at any law firm anywhere in the country? Not even a semi-no-show, just put his name on the letterhead and pay him to go golfing, job? He looked for close to two years, then took a job teaching poli sci at Texas Tech. That's very much *not* normal.

801

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:45:32pm

re: #799 SanFranciscoZionist

Why? The zealots have their own funding sources to be opaque about.

It's either that, or amend the constitution. I expect they will limit the transparency requirement to foreign sources located in countries who have been known to sponsor anti-American terrorism or radical religious movements. Like Iran, Libya, Syria and of course Saudi Arabia.

802

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:46:00pm

re: #783 Cato the Elder

"They say you should never hit a man with a closed fist, but it is, on occasion, high-larious."
--Capt. Mal Reynolds, "Firefly"

One way I point out to people that their "arguments" are ridiculous and on no account to be taken seriously is to mock their diction, grammar, or spelling.

Bad syntax and tortured grammar are nearly infallible signs of poor thinking, and this gentleman has shown more than enough of both on this thread.

You are correct, as you often are, But I would point out that poor thinkers need love, also. And my "Rorschach test" comment was clumsily constructed. It should have read; " Not merely a symbol". But you knew that.

803

sagehen Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:46:31pm

re: #787 Dark_Falcon

Big, bloomin' deal. US Attorneys serve at the pleasure of the president. If he decides he wants to remove one to hand the office off as a political plum, he may do so. If he decides he does like how one is doing his job, he can remove them. It's his right. The US Attorney matter was and remains a nontroversy, ginned up by the Democrats to attack George W. Bush.

If it was a nontroversy, why can't Alberto Gonzales find a job?

804

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:47:20pm

re: #801 Spare O'Lake

It's either that, or amend the constitution. I expect they will limit the transparency requirement to foreign sources located in countries who have been known to sponsor anti-American terrorism or radical religious movements. Like Iran, Libya, Syria and of course Saudi Arabia.

Why is it 'either that or amend the constitution'?

I see absolutely no reason to make any sweeping change to rules about revealing donor lists.

805

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:47:46pm

re: #800 sagehen

Other than the possibility that Alberto Gonzales really was ethically dubious and not particularly good at his job, can you find any rational explanation why a former Attorney General of the United States can't get hired at any law firm anywhere in the country? Not even a semi-no-show, just put his name on the letterhead and pay him to go golfing, job? He looked for close to two years, then took a job teaching poli sci at Texas Tech. That's very much *not* normal.

That weirded me out. Why was he snubbed like this? Just about anybody in the administration could have made one phone call and set him up at a cushy law firm somewhere. Heck, even without the phone call, there should have been plenty of GOP-friendly law firms offering to give Gonzales a comfy corner office. It's just... odd, how he seems to have ended up frozen out of the conservative beltway after having demonstrated so much loyalty.

806

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:48:13pm

re: #803 sagehen

If it was a nontroversy, why can't Alberto Gonzales find a job?

Obama economy!
That was waay too much fun!

807

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:49:13pm

re: #801 Spare O'Lake

It's either that, or amend the constitution. I expect they will limit the transparency requirement to foreign sources located in countries who have been known to sponsor anti-American terrorism or radical religious movements. Like Iran, Libya, Syria and of course Saudi Arabia.

BTW, isn't Rauf in the ME fundraising for the mosque as we speak?

808

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:49:30pm

re: #801 Spare O'Lake

It's either that, or amend the constitution. I expect they will limit the transparency requirement to foreign sources located in countries who have been known to sponsor anti-American terrorism or radical religious movements. Like Iran, Libya, Syria and of course Saudi Arabia.

Huge first amendment challenge if they don't do it across the board.

And I don't see even nearly enough of a reason to take the extreme step of amending the constitution over.

809

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:50:26pm

re: #801 Spare O'Lake

Sunshine laws have generally been found to be constitutionally neutral.

810

sagehen Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:50:53pm

re: #807 Spare O'Lake

BTW, isn't Rauf in the ME fundraising for the mosque as we speak?

No.

He's in the ME representing the United States, telling everyone the wonders of religious freedom in a pluralistic society.

I'll bet it's going swimmingly.

811

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:51:52pm

re: #804 SanFranciscoZionist

Why is it 'either that or amend the constitution'?

I see absolutely no reason to make any sweeping change to rules about revealing donor lists.

And while we are at it, what would we amend the Constitution to say?

812

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:53:05pm

re: #809 swamprat

Sunshine laws have generally been found to be constitutionally neutral.

Pass one just on just say, the Baptists and nobody else, and let's see how that goes. I don't see how you get to apply a religious test to a "sunshine law" and still have it end up "constitutionally neutral.

813

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:53:49pm

re: #807 Spare O'Lake

BTW, isn't Rauf in the ME fundraising for the mosque as we speak?

I thought he was working for the State Department. Is he permitted to use his off-time to fundraise? Don't recall where he is at the moment.

814

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:54:23pm

re: #811 SanFranciscoZionist

And while we are at it, what would we amend the Constitution to say?

Here's my vote:

Section 1. Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

Section 2. The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

Section 3. This amendment shall take effect two years after the date of ratification.

815

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:55:04pm

re: #813 SanFranciscoZionist

I thought he was working for the State Department. Is he permitted to use his off-time to fundraise? Don't recall where he is at the moment.

No, he isn't supposed to. I'm certain the Spare is very concerned, though.

816

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:55:39pm

re: #814 elbruce

Here's my vote:

We're trying to save our country from radical Islam, and you're worrying about women's rights???!!!!

///

817

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:55:56pm

re: #810 sagehen

No.

He's in the ME representing the United States, telling everyone the wonders of religious freedom in a pluralistic society.

I'll bet it's going swimmingly.

Right, and it's probably allowing him to raise shitloads of money for the mosque after every speech.

818

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:56:49pm

re: #817 Spare O'Lake

Right, and it's probably allowing him to raise shitloads of money for the mosque after every speech.

All too easy.

819

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:57:31pm

re: #817 Spare O'Lake

Right, and it's probably allowing him to raise shitloads of money for the mosque after every speech.

If it's OK with the State Department, it's OK by me. But I think they have rules about this sort of thing.

820

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:57:48pm

re: #815 JasonA

No, he isn't supposed to. I'm certain the Spare is very concerned, though.

Don't be naive.

821

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:59:20pm

re: #820 Spare O'Lake

Don't be naive.

No, no. Of course not.

822

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:59:35pm

re: #812 elbruce

Pass one just on just say, the Baptists and nobody else, and let's see how that goes. I don't see how you get to apply a religious test to a "sunshine law" and still have it end up "constitutionally neutral.

Nope. It would have to be across the board. If you want to build a mall with mob money, or run an icecream franchise with er, mob money, or a pizza chain...Garbage collection...
Well you might not stop it, but everyone will know.

I don't see one of these getting passed in New York, somehow.

823

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 9:59:36pm

re: #813 SanFranciscoZionist

I thought he was working for the State Department

Imam Rauf is not an employee of the United States State Department.

824

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:01:21pm

re: #820 Spare O'Lake

Don't be naive.

So you assume that he is breaking State Department regs, and actively fundraising on the government nickel?

825

Lidane Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:01:31pm

re: #801 Spare O'Lake

It's either that, or amend the constitution.

Bullshit. We're not going to amend the Constitution over that. Ever.

If you actually look at the amendments that have passed, they're generally about big issues -- slavery, voting rights, income taxes, presidential succession, presidential term limits, Congressional terms, citizenship, etc. You know, the nuts and bolts of actually running the country.

Why would donor lists ever rise to that level? You might as well just throw that idea on the same pile that includes the flag burning and balanced budget amendments.

826

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:01:35pm

re: #819 SanFranciscoZionist

If it's OK with the State Department, it's OK by me. But I think they have rules about this sort of thing.

Right. He's travelling around the ME while the shit is hitting the fan over here, and he's not taking the opportunity to do any mosque fundraising.
Oh momma.

827

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:02:11pm

re: #823 elbruce

Imam Rauf is not an employee of the United States State Department.

My error. What is he doing then?

828

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:03:19pm

re: #826 Spare O'Lake

Right. He's travelling around the ME while the shit is hitting the fan over here, and he's not taking the opportunity to do any mosque fundraising.
Oh momma.

If he can, he probably is.

If he's not allowed, he's undoubtedly networking.

Why am I supposed to care about this, again?

829

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:03:25pm

re: #814 elbruce

Here's my vote:

Section 1. Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

Section 2. The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

Section 3. This amendment shall take effect two years after the date of ratification.

Constitutionally approved ogies?

Wow! I like how you think!

830

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:04:46pm

re: #824 SanFranciscoZionist

So you assume that he is breaking State Department regs, and actively fundraising on the government nickel?

Oh no...of course not...no way.
BTW, what regs are you referring to?
And BTW, what flavour kool aid is that?

831

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:05:49pm

re: #826 Spare O'Lake

Right. He's travelling around the ME while the shit is hitting the fan over here, and he's not taking the opportunity to do any mosque fundraising.
Oh momma.

The real irony is that talk like this is the reason we need to send him over there in the first place.

Well, American talk like this.

832

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:06:38pm

re: #827 SanFranciscoZionist

My error. What is he doing then?

From A link that Charles provide earlier today:

But one young Egyptian asked: Wasn’t the United States financing the speaking tour that had brought the imam to Cairo because his message conveniently echoed United States interests?

“I’m not an agent from any government, even if some of you may not believe it,” the imam replied. “I’m not. I’m a peacemaker.”

A funding grant for a speaking tour doesn't make you an employee. I'm sure that the State Department is getting their money's worth out of his outreach efforts. But anything else he does is none of their business, provided that it's not in violation of the interests of the United States.

833

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:07:46pm

re: #825 Lidane

Bullshit. We're not going to amend the Constitution over that. Ever.

If you actually look at the amendments that have passed, they're generally about big issues -- slavery, voting rights, income taxes, presidential succession, presidential term limits, Congressional terms, citizenship, etc. You know, the nuts and bolts of actually running the country.

Why would donor lists ever rise to that level? You might as well just throw that idea on the same pile that includes the flag burning and balanced budget amendments.

I agree, it was a rhetorical choice. The transparency rules for foreign funding is what I would expect.

834

swamprat Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:07:52pm

swimming upstream

835

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:09:57pm

re: #830 Spare O'Lake

Oh no...of course not...no way.
BTW, what regs are you referring to?
And BTW, what flavour kool aid is that?

Someone said above that he was not allowed to fundraise for a private project while on the S.D. payroll, but other people are telling me that he's not on payroll, so it may not matter.

To answer your other question, blue raspberry.

Now, a question. Is there some reason he shouldn't raise money for this project while he's travelling, if it's legally OK?

836

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:10:25pm

re: #834 swamprat

swimming upstream

You're no Trout!

837

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:10:45pm

re: #832 elbruce

From A link that Charles provide earlier today:

A funding grant for a speaking tour doesn't make you an employee. I'm sure that the State Department is getting their money's worth out of his outreach efforts. But anything else he does is none of their business, provided that it's not in violation of the interests of the United States.

OK, so he's sort of an independent contractor, with a grant to go and do a speaking tour?

838

Dark_Falcon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:12:17pm

re: #803 sagehen

If it was a nontroversy, why can't Alberto Gonzales find a job?

Because he was unable to explain the situation and acted clueless throughout it. That made him unfit for the post of AG, and he went under the bus. Any Attorney General who couldn't handle himself before the Senate like that would have gotten the gate. Gonzales is out of work because he failed rather badly.

839

sagehen Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:13:28pm

re: #814 elbruce

Here's my vote:

I used to really care about the Equal Rights Amendment, I was sad that it wasn't ratified... but I've since come to feel the 14th Amendment does the job well enough.

840

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:13:55pm

re: #835 SanFranciscoZionist

Someone said above that he was not allowed to fundraise for a private project while on the S.D. payroll, but other people are telling me that he's not on payroll, so it may not matter.

To answer your other question, blue raspberry.

Now, a question. Is there some reason he shouldn't raise money for this project while he's travelling, if it's legally OK?

Not from folks in countries who have a track record of supporting religious extremism or terrorism. If he does, the public outcry will be overwhelming.

841

Funky_Gibbon Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:15:44pm

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

842

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:17:28pm

Daisy Khan was asked by CNN's Don Lemon today whether moving the mosque is "on the table". Her reply was "Not until we consult with all the stakeholders."
WTF did she mean, I wonder.

843

ClaudeMonet Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:17:41pm

re: #130 deadletterboy

Throw in Batman and Robin just for giggles. The Adam West era, not this current, awesome incarnation (though that incarnation was sort of awesome too)

If we can also have Julie Newmar as the Catwoman. Rowwwwrrrrr!

844

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:18:50pm

re: #842 Spare O'Lake

Daisy Khan was asked by CNN's Don Lemon today whether moving the mosque is "on the table". Her reply was "Not until we consult with all the stakeholders."
WTF did she mean, I wonder.

Terrorist sympathizers. Obviously.

845

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:18:55pm

re: #837 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, so he's sort of an independent contractor, with a grant to go and do a speaking tour?

I don't know the particulars, but that'd be my guess.

Imam Rauf: hey, I was thinking of going across the Middle East and doing a series of speeches about how they should be cool with the United States because it's awesome.

State Dept: Who are you again?

Imam Rauf: I'm that Muslim Imam who wrote a book called What's Right With Islam Is What's Right With America. I'm all about how Muslims should be more like America and less like the Taliban. That's what I'm going to talk about on the speaking tour.

State Dept: Sounds awesome. We can kick down for some airfare and hotels and stuff, sure. Here's your grant.

Imam Rauf: Just to be clear, this doesn't make me an agent of the United States, right? Some people might have a problem with that.

State Dept: Man, we just flat out lost $2.3 trillion in Iraq, I think we can throw some cash at you without attaching any strings. I'll have Hillary go sign off on it. It's her call, so I'm pretty sure you're cool.

846

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:20:11pm

re: #840 Spare O'Lake

Not from folks in countries who have a track record of supporting religious extremism or terrorism. If he does, the public outcry will be overwhelming.

He's going to Bahrain, Qatar, and the UAE. The US has diplomatic relations, trade agreements, and working relationships with all of these nations, and Bahrain, at least, let us use them as a base of operations in 2003.

Do these nations seem acceptable to you, and the public?

847

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:20:38pm

re: #842 Spare O'Lake

Daisy Khan was asked by CNN's Don Lemon today whether moving the mosque is "on the table". Her reply was "Not until we consult with all the stakeholders."
WTF did she mean, I wonder.

MY GOD! What could she have meant by that?

848

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:22:00pm

re: #837 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, so he's sort of an independent contractor, with a grant to go and do a speaking tour?

Yes. Are you starting to get the picture? This clever guy is over there in the ME at US taxpayer expense, probably fundraising his ass off...legally.

849

ClaudeMonet Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:23:15pm

re: #127 Jeff In Ohio

Heh, bet the state kicked in for that, too. We're still crying and paying for Paul Brown Stadium. At least I am.

More crying than paying lately for that and the Great American Small Park down the street. Typical political stuff going on there, as the County Commissioner who was most vocal in his support for the sales tax increase that would "pay for the stadiums in full" and was thrown out of office by the voters now works for--the Bengals.

850

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:24:28pm

re: #848 Spare O'Lake

Yes. Are you starting to get the picture? This clever guy is over there in the ME at US taxpayer expense, probably fundraising his ass off...legally.

He's on a speaking tour. I'm sorry, but my hackles aren't starting to rise.

851

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:24:57pm

re: #848 Spare O'Lake

Yes. Are you starting to get the picture? This clever guy is over there in the ME at US taxpayer expense, probably fundraising his ass off...legally.

Well thank heavens you're not a US taxpayer, Spare.

852

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:26:50pm

re: #847 SanFranciscoZionist

MY GOD! What could she have meant by that?

Seemed odd to me, and at variance with the pro-mosque talking points to the efffect that there was no way they would ever agree to move it.

853

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:26:58pm

re: #850 SanFranciscoZionist

He's on a speaking tour. I'm sorry, but my hackles aren't starting to rise.

Also, if some rich bastard in the UAE wants to help build a community center in Manhattan, I'm actually not too unhappy about that. They have money to burn, better they spend it on this than some other stuff I could think of.

854

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:27:21pm

re: #852 Spare O'Lake

Seemed odd to me, and at variance with the pro-mosque talking points to the efffect that there was no way they would ever agree to move it.

I can see how they might be starting to change their minds at this point.

855

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:27:36pm

re: #840 Spare O'Lake

Not from folks in countries who have a track record of supporting religious extremism or terrorism. If he does, the public outcry will be overwhelming.

Muslim guy raises money from Muslim countries. America is shocked, shocked, I tell you...

As SFZ pointed out, these are all countries with good relations with the U.S. I'm sure the State Dept. wouldn't have thrown in if they weren't.

So look at it from the other side. You're some Muslim dude from one of those countries, and Imam Rauf is asking you for money. His pitch is that he's starting a community center in lower Manhattan to foster cooperation between Islam and all those Americans. Now, if you're a "religious extremist or terrorist" are you going to open your wallet for that?

856

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:29:25pm

re: #851 JasonA

Well thank heavens you're not a US taxpayer, Spare.

Are you kidding? By the time the Canadian government has their pound of flesh I'm lucky if I have a pot to piss in.

857

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:30:16pm

re: #855 elbruce

Muslim guy raises money from Muslim countries. America is shocked, shocked, I tell you...

As SFZ pointed out, these are all countries with good relations with the U.S. I'm sure the State Dept. wouldn't have thrown in if they weren't.

So look at it from the other side. You're some Muslim dude from one of those countries, and Imam Rauf is asking you for money. His pitch is that he's starting a community center in lower Manhattan to foster cooperation between Islam and all those Americans. Now, if you're a "religious extremist or terrorist" are you going to open your wallet for that?

The jihadis need the basketball court and swimming pool to stay in shape.

858

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:31:37pm

re: #855 elbruce

Muslim guy raises money from Muslim countries. America is shocked, shocked, I tell you...

As SFZ pointed out, these are all countries with good relations with the U.S. I'm sure the State Dept. wouldn't have thrown in if they weren't.

So look at it from the other side. You're some Muslim dude from one of those countries, and Imam Rauf is asking you for money. His pitch is that he's starting a community center in lower Manhattan to foster cooperation between Islam and all those Americans. Now, if you're a "religious extremist or terrorist" are you going to open your wallet for that?

Only if he winks real good.
*wink*

859

ClaudeMonet Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:32:40pm

re: #250 Jeff In Ohio

Hey, all they needed was the Indian Chief! (There was a cop, construction hat guy and Confederate cowboy).

Where's the biker and the sailor?

860

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:34:21pm

So, one of my college friends is having total kidney failure, due to her lupus, and she's had to take a lot of prednisone, which is leading to horrible face puffiness and breaking out. She says she looks like Jabba the Hutt after having slept on a bacon pillow.

The problem--if this wasn't a problem enough--is that one of our friends is getting married in October, and she's in the wedding party. We're hoping she looks better by then.

I suggested that if it doesn't look promising, instead of the sari she has bought, she could wear a chador and a niqab.

She says I'm an evil genius, but feels this might be distracting to the wedding guests.

861

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:34:32pm

re: #858 Spare O'Lake

Only if he winks real good.
*wink*

Wow, man. How do you sleep at night with all those Muslims up in Canada thinking of ways to kill you?

862

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:36:13pm

re: #860 SanFranciscoZionist

Damn, that sucks...sending some good vibes y'all's way.

863

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:36:33pm

re: #855 elbruce

I read that Rauf still calls the place the ground zero mosque. If true, I guess this misnomer would be a good selling point for raising funds from jihadis.

864

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:38:29pm

re: #862 talon_262

Damn, that sucks...sending some good vibes y'all's way.

Thanks. It does suck. She's gonna have to do dialysis, and go on a transplant list and all--but the good news is that apparently the type of lupus she's got is totally focused on the kidneys, and once it's managed to kill them dead, it will go back into remission and most likely not start effing with anything else.

865

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:38:50pm

re: #861 JasonA

Wow, man. How do you sleep at night with all those Muslims up in Canada thinking of ways to kill you?

I sleep like a baby.

866

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 10:47:54pm

re: #863 Spare O'Lake

I read that Rauf still calls the place the ground zero mosque.

Where'd you read that? I'd love to see that link.

867

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 11:09:32pm

re: #866 elbruce

Where'd you read that? I'd love to see that link.

I can't remember - it was yesterday, I think, on the internet.

868

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 11:15:43pm

re: #867 Spare O'Lake

I can't remember - it was yesterday, I think, on the internet.

Oh, on the Internet, was it? You know, I would think if he used that term it would be huge news. Wouldn't be hard to find at at all. It'd be reported on thousands of major sites.

Alternately, I could assume that either you didn't understand the thing that you read, or that it was a flat-out lie from some neocon bigot which you accepted without question.

Unless you can find that link, I think I'm going to go with the latter.

869

ClaudeMonet Sun, Aug 22, 2010 11:17:57pm

re: #445 Escaped Hillbilly

Ok, so you have a reasonable reason to think that and can discuss it. I would agree except it completely ignores the feelings of a huge population of people who are going to act on those feelings. Most religions would choose to avoid that kind of conflict. Not saying they have to. Of course they can build there if they like. But it is not really in their best interest and stirs up hateful and painful feelings. Since that is not their stated intention, they should consider building elsewhere, esp. since this is not a local mosque intended to be used only by the congregation but a large cultural center a lot of Muslims should be expected to have free access to. Seems silly to insist it be there. Now of course, people are going to want to dig in their heels and say they should build there to prove a point to the bigots. And the extremists win again. Compromise would serve both sides well but it won't happen because the crazies have made this a cause.

If the initial proposal was to build it across the street from Ground Zero, it would have been "too close". The initial proposal was to build it two blocks from Ground Zero, so it is "too close". If the initial proposal was to build it 10 blocks from Ground Zero, it would have been "too close". If the initial proposal was to build it 25 blocks from Ground Zero, it would have been "too close". If the initial proposal was to build it three miles from Ground Zero, it would have been "too close". And so on.

It can never be far enough away for some if not all of these people. However, you will never convince them of that. They;ll just say it's this PARTICULAR proximity.

Like the mosque Mr. Olajuwon built in Houston, it has been proposed where it is because the real estate was there, vacant, and available at a reasonable price for the area.

870

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 11:24:56pm

re: #868 elbruce

Oh, on the Internet, was it? You know, I would think if he used that term it would be huge news. Wouldn't be hard to find at at all. It'd be reported on thousands of major sites.

Alternately, I could assume that either you didn't understand the thing that you read, or that it was a flat-out lie from some neocon bigot which you accepted without question.

Unless you can find that link, I think I'm going to go with the latter.

I doubt it, but I can't recall. I don't usually read neocon bigots.

871

ClaudeMonet Sun, Aug 22, 2010 11:25:28pm

re: #491 webevintage

Sometimes you just have to tell people to fuck off and keep doing what you are doing.

Classic, and now in my Quotes file.

872

Spare O'Lake Sun, Aug 22, 2010 11:26:29pm

re: #869 ClaudeMonet

If the initial proposal was to build it across the street from Ground Zero, it would have been "too close". The initial proposal was to build it two blocks from Ground Zero, so it is "too close". If the initial proposal was to build it 10 blocks from Ground Zero, it would have been "too close". If the initial proposal was to build it 25 blocks from Ground Zero, it would have been "too close". If the initial proposal was to build it three miles from Ground Zero, it would have been "too close". And so on.

It can never be far enough away for some if not all of these people. However, you will never convince them of that. They;ll just say it's this PARTICULAR proximity.

Like the mosque Mr. Olajuwon built in Houston, it has been proposed where it is because the real estate was there, vacant, and available at a reasonable price for the area.

25 blocks would probably work for most.

873

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Aug 22, 2010 11:28:47pm

re: #872 Spare O'Lake

25 blocks would probably work for most.

Temecula, CA, is a hell of a lot farther than 25 blocks. Must point that out.

874

ClaudeMonet Sun, Aug 22, 2010 11:35:40pm

re: #528 elbruce

Look, the Dems used a procedure that would prevent letting the GOP "poison-pill" the legislation at the cost of needing more votes. But whether they did that or not, nobody had any business voting against it. The Republican response to that maneuver was to - as a caucus - oppose the legislation. But I think that Rep. Weiner summed it up quite nicely just after King announced the GOP would oppose it as a group, and just before the vote was taken:

[Video]

Damn, I love it when a politician just lets fly with his true emotions. Especially when he's right.

Is the basic bill right? Vote for it.

Is the basic bill right, and the amendments bullshit? Vote against the amendments and pass the basic bill.

Is the basic bill wrong? Vote against it, with or without amendments.

Hiding behind procedure is cowardly on the part of the Republicans. Allowing them to hide behind procedure is cowardly on the part of the Democrats, particularly Ms. Pelosi. Particularly when the same damned thing went on when the Repubs were in charge and the Dems the whiny children hiding behind "procedure".

875

Mocking Jay Sun, Aug 22, 2010 11:35:52pm

re: #873 SanFranciscoZionist

Temecula, CA, is a hell of a lot farther than 25 blocks. Must point that out.

Too close.

876

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Aug 22, 2010 11:40:52pm

re: #872 Spare O'Lake

25 blocks would probably work for most.

How about where they plan to build it in the first place?

877

ClaudeMonet Sun, Aug 22, 2010 11:47:26pm

re: #633 reine.de.tout

I saw it.
It's a repeat, AND the information was not accurate.
That guy was an electrician.
The Roi tells me he sees rubber pieces in the return flow all the time. The guy was told it wasn't an issue; and it wasn't, that was correct. Anyhoo - that piece is not accurate, again, that particular guy was an electrician, not part of the actual drilling operations, and was talking about things he has no expertise in.

When has that ever stopped 60 Minutes when there was a point they wanted to sell? They've never been known to let facts get in the way of a good story. If the facts align with their view, fine; if not, sidestep them or ignore them altogether.

878

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 11:48:30pm

re: #872 Spare O'Lake

25 blocks would probably work for most.

I'm good with 2, thanks.

879

elbruce Sun, Aug 22, 2010 11:50:22pm

re: #870 Spare O'Lake

I doubt it, but I can't recall. I don't usually read neocon bigots.

Look, what you originally said was:

I read that Rauf still calls the place the ground zero mosque. If true, I guess this misnomer would be a good selling point for raising funds from jihadis.

So basically you're just spreading around some wingnut lie you claim to have read in passing. It's important to trace these things back to their source every time they show up.

880

SpaceJesus Sun, Aug 22, 2010 11:52:14pm

this poor guy and michael steele should get together for a beer. they both know what it's like to be surrounded by 100s of angry white people. one of them more so than the other.

881

ClaudeMonet Mon, Aug 23, 2010 12:02:04am

re: #711 cliffster

This is, by far, the lamest issue ever to have become this big a controversy. Might as well have some Christian/Muslim reality shows.

Please don't even think that. The next reality show will be a variation of "Wife Swap", in which Christian and Muslim fundamentalist husbands will have to switch places for two weeks, one week living by the wife's house rules, the other by their own rules, including where and how they worship.

882

ClaudeMonet Mon, Aug 23, 2010 12:04:39am

re: #718 tnguitarist

Wife swap!

You beat me to it. A couple I know was on that show--very weird experience. The wife they exchanged with could be Pamz in terms of shrieking personality.

883

ClaudeMonet Mon, Aug 23, 2010 12:16:54am

re: #789 elbruce

I disagree with both Pelosi and the ADL. The ADL specifically is siding with defamation on this issue, particularly the defamation that the Park51 project is in any way associated with the perpetrators of 9/11.

Now, if we want to pass a law saying that all religious organizations across the country should open their books and make their donor lists public, that would be a different thing entirely. Try that and see how well it works.

Pelosi tries to pass herself off as a devout Catholic. Yeah, Nancy, let's open up all of the RCC's books, see who's getting the money from where and how it's spent.

Actually, in their annual form 990s filed with the IRS, theoretically available for public inspection, tax-exempt organizations are supposed to list individual or corporate donors of over $50,000 in a year. But boy, are there a lot of ways around that one, and I don't think IRS checks very often.

884

ClaudeMonet Mon, Aug 23, 2010 12:32:15am

re: #872 Spare O'Lake

25 blocks would probably work for most.

It wouldn't work for ALL of the opponents, and just like their PC counterparts, everything must be agreeable to everyone or no one is allowed to do/say anything. Of course, in the case of the anti-Park51 folks, that means everyone must agree with THEM.

Much of the point of building this community center is that it is for those who live or work in the COMMUNITY. Twenty-five blocks away is not in the community IMO.

A few blocks farther away may have been acceptable to the Imam and his folks, but this particular building was available two blocks away. When you can get a good piece of suitable real estate relatively cheaply, you do it. It's not like here in Ohio, where you can find all kinds of vacant land for your needs.

885

boxhead Mon, Aug 23, 2010 12:44:54am

re: #10 Gus 802

Reminds me of the 60s.

Watching the emotion on this American Citizen's face is sad. Those people who focused their senseless rage on this man are on the edge. I bet a very large chuck of them would have been happy if that man was physically harmed. They certainly approved and participated in the psychological pain he received.

America, WAKE UP!!!!!

886

elbruce Mon, Aug 23, 2010 12:56:07am

re: #884 ClaudeMonet

...this particular building was available two blocks away. When you can get a good piece of suitable real estate relatively cheaply, you do it.

Lower Manhattan real estate in a building that hasn't been remodeled since it happened to catch a certain chunk of fuselage? It's a steal!

The location is perfect both in terms of serving the Manhattan community and in international prestige. Hopefully the Park51 project will be just the first of a greater movement in promoting a more Western form of Islam both there and elsewhere

887

boxhead Mon, Aug 23, 2010 1:01:24am

re: #886 elbruce

Lower Manhattan real estate in a building that hasn't been remodeled since it happened to catch a certain chunk of fuselage? It's a steal!

Cause it is in NY... :p //

The location is perfect both in terms of serving the Manhattan community and in international prestige. Hopefully the Park51 project will be just the first of a greater movement in promoting a more Western form of Islam both there and elsewhere

I pray that once this building opens, nothing bad happens. Way to many people are really freaking out.

888

elbruce Mon, Aug 23, 2010 1:31:55am

re: #887 boxhead

Cause it is in NY... :p //

Dude, it's in Park Place. Ever play Monopoly...? It's some of the best real estate on the planet.

889

boxhead Mon, Aug 23, 2010 1:45:07am

re: #888 elbruce

uuhhhhh... I was joking.... see the //.. :)

890

elbruce Mon, Aug 23, 2010 2:36:22am

Oh yeah, the //.

Well, it's still worth laying down a mention that this is actually dark-blue Monopoly real estate involved there. A lot of people who don't know NY don't realize that those are real places for a real reason.

891

Obdicut Mon, Aug 23, 2010 3:20:51am

re: #826 Spare O'Lake

Again, no matter what, you are sure to cast aspersions and suspicion on this man.

You are utterly, utterly transparent.

This is all you do.

892

Romantic Heretic Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:36:32am

re: #11 deadletterboy

That got really close to dangerous.
What the hell is wrong with these people?

They're afraid. They're misinformed. And they're really, really looking for an excuse to hurt other human beings.

893

Romantic Heretic Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:41:41am

re: #43 Dark_Falcon

It's somewhat new in New York City, though. Still hideous.

Not really.

894

Romantic Heretic Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:43:14am

re: #58 Cato the Elder

I still have Robert Spencer's emails to me.

In one of them he whinges on about how could I possible attack the "brave little band" of anti-jihadists who are trying to save us all from Wahhabism and the jizyah.

How does it feel, Robert, now that your little band has turned into a mob of lynch-ready pogromists?

I'm betting he's pleased as punch.

895

garhighway Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:44:00am

re: #890 elbruce

Oh yeah, the //.

Well, it's still worth laying down a mention that this is actually dark-blue Monopoly real estate involved there. A lot of people who don't know NY don't realize that those are real places for a real reason.

The Monopoly places are down in Atlantic City. (Or, as the locals call it, "AC".)

896

CSKapper Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:14:45am

This stuff is starting to scare me. These politicians and ideologues are playing with matches in a hay barn. Innocent people's lives are being put at risk all for a few dollars and a few votes...

897

reidr Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:20:41am

re: #896 Sheridan8

This stuff is starting to scare me. These politicians and ideologues are playing with matches in a hay barn. Innocent people's lives are being put at risk all for a few dollars and a few votes...

True. Some of them probably are actual bigots and wouldn't mind seeing a Holy War erupt....

898

Yashmak Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:13:33am

re: #68 Cato the Elder

I was really, really hoping to see a couple of nearly naked grrrls from the "New York Dolls" - ahem! - "gentlemen's club" with anti-mosque slogans painted across their ta-tas.

Man just can't catch a break these days.

Or maybe a couple guys off to one side from the nearby betting house taking bets on the crowd lynching the guy or not/who throws the first punch/etc. etc.

899

Our Precious Bodily Fluids Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:23:32am

There may or may not be some amusing fallout from this, as Luap Nor and Alex Jones share share a partially-overlapping fanbase. Jones says it's a great big conspiracy, but Ron Paul says it's all about hate and demagogy.

That sound isn't popcorn popping, it's Prison Planet Paulians' heads asplodin'.

900

Charles Johnson Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:11:03am

re: #872 Spare O'Lake

25 blocks would probably work for most.

You are completely full of crap. What's the excuse for the anti-mosque protests in other states? Are they on "sacred ground" too?

What bullshit. I wish you people would just be honest and admit you're afraid and reacting out of fear and prejudice. That's what's going on here, and it couldn't be more obvious. You ignore every article posted that refutes your stupid talking points, and just spout them again as if nothing ever happened.

901

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:13:27am

re: #900 Charles

You are completely full of crap. What's the excuse for the anti-mosque protests in other states? Are they on "sacred ground" too?

What bullshit. I wish you people would just be honest and admit you're afraid and reacting out of fear and prejudice. That's what's going on here, and it couldn't be more obvious. You ignore every article posted that refutes your stupid talking points, and just spout them again as if nothing ever happened.

Apparently, the core of the argument is "sacred zip code".

902

Only The Lurker Knows Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:47:40am

re: #899 negativ

Some interesting comments on that article.

"Freedom for muslim invaders to destroy my freedoms, my country and possibly in the coming (civil) wars my physical life? If that’s the freedom you are talking about then I am out. Shame on you for blaspheming freedom!"

*snip*

"PS: I do not care about the mosque itself, muslims didn’t do 9/11, the CIA did, so stop this bullshit talk about 9/11. It’s all a distraction, and Ron Paul is falling for it with his stupid comments. I guess he is trying real hard to NOT get elected in 2012?"

Prison Planet escapee?

903

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:56:19am

re: #902 Bubblehead II

Prison Planet escapee?

You know that you are in serious crazyland when the New World Order drones are looking comparatively sane.

904

garhighway Mon, Aug 23, 2010 2:09:07pm

re: #846 SanFranciscoZionist

He's going to Bahrain, Qatar, and the UAE. The US has diplomatic relations, trade agreements, and working relationships with all of these nations, and Bahrain, at least, let us use them as a base of operations in 2003.

Do these nations seem acceptable to you, and the public?

Geez, I don't know. There's an awful lot of brown people over there.

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