NPR: European Islamophobia Finds a Home in the US

Wingnuts • Views: 4,667

Here are some very interesting comments from Reza Aslan on NPR’s “All Things Considered.” Reza has correctly identified one of the key points about the forces behind the recent rise of anti-Muslim sentiment: the fact that Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer’s “Stop Islamization of America” is a US franchise of a disturbingly popular far right European group that skillfully skates around the edges of Europe’s hate crime laws.

I’ve been writing for quite a while about the Geller-Spencer crowd’s determined effort to import European-style ethnic and religious hatreds into the United States, by making alliances with groups such as the “Stop Islamisation” hate franchise, the English Defense League, Belgium’s Vlaams Belang, Sweden Democrats, and even the British National Party.

For a long time, nobody cared, but now we’re seeing the first fruits of this noxious harvest.

Video

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1036 comments
1 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:08:40pm

I heard this on the way home today.

Listen to it.

Listen to it.

2 Kragar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:11:55pm

Its almost like if you blame people for something they didn't do, vilify them, spit on their beliefs and make them feel like they dont belong, they get angry about it or something.

But I'm sure some people are too busy establishing a new local bund hall to care.

3 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:13:37pm

So, in other words, the bigots efforts to shun and ostracize Muslims may very create the extremists they loathe, and allows them to paint all Muslims as that way, which is what they wanted in the first place. These scum like Geller and Spencer must be stopped. The importation of European intolerance must be fought and halted. For heaven's sake, Imam Rauf said the US constitution was more in line with principles of Islam than many of the Muslim countries in the Middle East today.

Pardon the jingoism, but America is better than this dammit!

4 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:14:40pm

Excellent piece.

5 brownbagj  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:16:32pm

Finally, we are becoming more like Europe.

/

6 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:17:40pm

re: #5 brownbagj

Finally, we are becoming more like Europe.

/

good grief!
And from the very people who have argued all along that we should not look to Europe!

7 brownbagj  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:17:48pm

re: #3 ProLifeLiberal

We should be better. Many are. Unfortunately, many are not.

Our character seems to be showing something that has been brewing underneath for many years.

A fear of those not exactly like us.

8 Nimed  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:19:36pm

re: #6 reine.de.tout

good grief!
And from the very people who have argued all along that we should not look to Europe!

We're only doing it to keep American exceptionalism intact.
/

9 freetoken  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:19:54pm

re: #3 ProLifeLiberal

It's been said many times in many ways, but I accept the basic premise: those who obsess over their enemies become like them.

The reactionary anti-muslim crowd (Geller et. al.) increasingly become extreme as they only think and dwell upon violent Islamicists such as AQ. Now Geller et. al. see enemies where there are none.

Thankfully this country is so diverse that the haters only will sway a segment of society, not all of it.

10 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:20:03pm

re: #6 reine.de.tout

good grief!
And from the very people who have argued all along that we should not look to Europe!

fools.

I just don't get it. Where are the memories???

11 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:20:36pm

Mr. Rogers taught us to be better than this.

12 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:20:38pm

re: #6 reine.de.tout

There are some things to be found in Europe worth emulating.

This clearly is not one of them.

13 Kragar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:20:44pm

re: #6 reine.de.tout

good grief!
And from the very people who have argued all along that we should not look to Europe!

They're also the same people who scream local control of the government and then interject themselves anywhere they feel like it when it meets their agenda.

14 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:24:34pm

re: #1 Stanley Sea

I heard this on the way home today.

Listen to it.

Listen to it.

Twice?
Twice??

15 Nimed  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:26:14pm

re: #12 Fozzie Bear

There are some things to be found in Europe worth emulating.

This clearly is not one of them.

In all fairness, some Europeans often choose to admire the wrong things about our country.

16 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:26:24pm

re: #9 freetoken

I'll do what I can at OU to see that any Muslims don't picked on or hurt here. If anyone gives them trouble, I'll report the offenders to someone on campus immediately. Many of these people have helped me through my Autism, which is more than can be said for many of the Christians here. One of the young women took to making sure I wasn't tipping over emotionally, and teaching me about some social things and how to relax. Like hell if anyone is giving the Muslims here an issue.

17 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:27:41pm

Are right and wrong convertible terms, dependant upon popular opinion? ~William Lloyd Garrison

18 Gus  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:28:11pm

Wow. After Tweeting this I took a look around #tcot. So many conservatives have drunk the Koolaid. Also saw this from that crazed loser Debbie Schlussel:

HA! Muslim Miss Hezbo USA Did NOT Even Make Top 15 in Miss Universe. Rima Fakih, Stick a Fork in It, Baby! UR Done. Aleikum Salaam! #tcot

19 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:28:28pm

re: #14 sattv4u2

Twice?
Twice??

Actually, it's because I don't trust these readers (you) to listen once.

20 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:29:35pm

re: #19 Stanley Sea

Actually, it's because I don't trust these readers (you) to listen once.

did you say something?

21 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:30:35pm

re: #20 sattv4u2

Work is a 4 letter word eh?

What am I missing sports wise?

22 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:32:22pm

This, all of this, is exactly what Osama Bin Laden wanted, and knew would happen. He wanted a clash of cultures. The American right is only too happy to oblige him.

23 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:35:09pm

re: #21 Stanley Sea

Work is a 4 letter word eh?

What am I missing sports wise?

Right now, all we're doing is the NFL game for ESPN and (shudder) Monday Night Raw WWE Wrestling sending it to Europe and South America

((shift is about over ,, overnight relief should be here within 15 minutes or so))

24 Gus  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:36:59pm

re: #22 Fozzie Bear

This, all of this, is exactly what Osama Bin Laden wanted, and knew would happen. He wanted a clash of cultures. The American right is only too happy to oblige him.

They'll do anything to attempt to bring about the myth of rapture.

25 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:37:50pm

My techno-fu is failing me. Can somebody post an HTML link to this NPR story? My usual right-click doesn't work with flash and I lack the patience to dig through the source code.

26 Ojoe  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:38:34pm

This evening's Towercam; the sun angle throws into high definition all the canyons. San Gabriel Mountains of California, Pacific time zone.


"It is a sad and beautiful world."

— Roberto Begnini.

27 prairiefire  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:38:49pm

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Fozzie~ OT~ this is our wee mighty beastie. Thanks for your help in caring for him:[Link: imgur.com...]

28 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:39:09pm

OT: thanks to Obdicut for defending LGF from attacks by both the deranged right and the deranged left:

[Link: www.thelibertypapers.org...]

29 freetoken  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:39:24pm

re: #25 Fozzie Bear

It's a featured Page , look that a way ----

30 Digital Display  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:39:30pm

re: #23 sattv4u2

Right now, all we're doing is the NFL game for ESPN and (shudder) Monday Night Raw WWE Wrestling sending it to Europe and South America

((shift is about over ,, overnight relief should be here within 15 minutes or so))

Half time for Monday night football..Game sucks

31 prairiefire  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:39:45pm

re: #28 Charles

OT: thanks to Obdicut for defending LGF from attacks by both the deranged right and the deranged left:

[Link: www.thelibertypapers.org...]

Obdi wields a mighty sword.

32 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:39:47pm

re: #29 freetoken

Oh derr... tyvm.

33 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:39:50pm

re: #23 sattv4u2

Right now, all we're doing is the NFL game for ESPN and (shudder) Monday Night Raw WWE Wrestling sending it to Europe and South America

((shift is about over ,, overnight relief should be here within 15 minutes or so))

The pre-season NFL game tonight is much more enjoyable than anything else on TV tonight.

34 Ojoe  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:39:52pm

Sufis are cool, they are the peace and love hippies of Islam.

BBL

35 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:40:38pm

re: #25 Fozzie Bear

My techno-fu is failing me. Can somebody post an HTML link to this NPR story? My usual right-click doesn't work with flash and I lack the patience to dig through the source code.

[Link: www.npr.org...]

36 prairiefire  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:42:19pm

re: #25 Fozzie Bear

Fozzie~ OT~ this is our wee mighty beastie. Thanks for your help in caring for him:[Link: imgur.com...]

Sorry, meant for Fozzie.

37 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:43:42pm

re: #30 HoosierHoops

Half time for Monday night football..Game sucks

re: #33 NJDhockeyfan

The pre-season NFL game tonight is much more enjoyable than anything else on TV tonight.

You guys want to hash this out???

38 Gus  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:43:53pm

re: #28 Charles

OT: thanks to Obdicut for defending LGF from attacks by both the deranged right and the deranged left:

[Link: www.thelibertypapers.org...]

Ah, I see the usual wankers found their way to that blog.

39 reginald perrin  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:44:21pm

re: #28 Charles

OT: thanks to Obdicut for defending LGF from attacks by both the deranged right and the deranged left:

[Link: www.thelibertypapers.org...]

I wonder who posted this comment on that thread?

*wink*

40 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:44:44pm

re: #9 freetoken

It's been said many times in many ways, but I accept the basic premise: those who obsess over their enemies become like them.

The reactionary anti-muslim crowd (Geller et. al.) increasingly become extreme as they only think and dwell upon violent Islamicists such as AQ. Now Geller et. al. see enemies where there are none.

Thankfully this country is so diverse that the haters only will sway a segment of society, not all of it.

There's a saying that seems on point: "Be careful who you choose as your enemy, because you're going to end up just like him."

41 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:45:45pm

re: #28 Charles

OT: thanks to Obdicut for defending LGF from attacks by both the deranged right and the deranged left:

[Link: www.thelibertypapers.org...]

Obdi, the voice of reason in that thread.

Kudos!

42 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:46:11pm

re: #37 sattv4u2

re: #33 NJDhockeyfan

You guys want to hash this out???

The game does suck but it's not a regular season game either. The rest of TV really sucks.

;)

43 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:46:42pm

re: #39 reginald perrin

I wonder who posted this comment on that thread?

*wink*

Kudos to Obdicut and Locker for going over there and taking the Stalkers on.

44 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:48:09pm

And on that note, the long quiet drive home awaits

45 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:49:51pm

Ok, somewhat OT, but not really:

I was thinking about the GWOT and any imaginable definable criteria for "victory", and the situation in Israel/gaza/west bank, and the link posted in #28 reminded me of the whole flap over people getting death threats for depicting Muhammad.

All three situations have something in common. These are all situations where a large number of people desire stability and peace, but any determined small minority can derail that stability. We have to have a paradigm shift, as a culture, if we are to avoid falling prey to hysterical thinking.

Any terrorist attack conducted by a handful of people which kills Americans will inevitably be viewed as a failure in the GWOT.
Any terrorist attack in Israel conducted by a handful of people will inevitably derail the peace process.
All it takes is one Muslim overreacting to a drawing of the prophet to make a death threat, and everybody flips out as though Islam as a whole just declared a jihad on us.

This kind of thinking is, quite frankly, cowardice. We need to stop being such fucking cowards. You cannot stop a determined individual or small group that does not care if they survive an attempt to cause harm, from causing harm. It isn't possible, period. Even total top-down control, abject despotism, could not prevent such a thing.

Until we learn to be a little more resilient as a culture, and not freak the fuck out whenever somebody does something dumb, we are puppets to be played by the likes of Osama Bin Laden.

46 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:50:33pm

re: #12 Fozzie Bear

There are some things to be found in Europe worth emulating.

This clearly is not one of them.

Better beer and public transit! Less fascism!!

47 researchok  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:51:34pm

I disagree with the notion that European biases preceded the ascendancy of radical Islam in Europe. In fact, Europeans welcomed Muslims immigrants into their countries for a long time. That is why the Muslim population is so high.

Where Europeans have failed is in the integration of Muslims into their societies. This behavior is not new nor directed exclusively at Muslims. European chauvinism has deep roots. Europe was only too happy to rid herself of their 'wretched refuse' and that chauvinism and class based cultures. American success has always been predicated in large measure on European failures and weaknesses. Europeans deliberately excluded 'others' from integrating their society. America's mantra has been E Pluribus Unum. We insisted and welcomed integration of all people into the melting pot.

As far as the Islamic Center, what Rauf believes or doesn't believe isn't germane to the issue. Until he or the center engage in behavior that is inappropriate, dangerous or bigoted, he deserves the right to integrate into our society. If he does engage in any of those behaviors, he will incur the wrath of an city and nation and we will all respond appropriately.

Demanding that Rauf and the Islamic Center move because of what others (very, very bad and very evil) people have done and because of a fear of what Rauf and the Islamic Center might do is about as xenophobic and bigoted as it gets.

If Rauf isn't what he says he is he will be run out of town on a rail- and he won't have the satisfaction of being able to say America is as corrupt and bigoted as many regimes in the Muslim world.

He won't have the opportunity to say 'Americans are just like us'.

48 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:51:39pm

re: #10 Stanley Sea

fools.

I just don't get it. Where are the memories???

I dunno.
I wish they'd get their memories back, though!

49 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:52:14pm

re: #48 reine.de.tout

You know how it is. They love pre-war Europe, hate post-war europe.

50 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:52:47pm

re: #25 Fozzie Bear

My techno-fu is failing me. Can somebody post an HTML link to this NPR story? My usual right-click doesn't work with flash and I lack the patience to dig through the source code.

[Link: www.npr.org...]

Includes transcript.

51 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:52:56pm

On Topic: I'd seen "Leave Islam Safely ads on Chicago taxis in the loop a couple times these past 4 weeks but it was not until today I found out the Shrieking Harpy was behind them:

Taxi ads stir controversy
Ads imply leaving Islam is dangerous for women
August 22, 2010|By Manya A. Brachear, Tribune reporter

An outspoken opponent of the so-called ground zero mosque in Manhattan is also taking on Islam in Chicago.

Pamela Geller, leader of a movement called Stop the Islamization of America, asserts that Muslims are increasingly taking over schools, financial institutions and the workplace.

Geller's latest campaign against "Islamization" has appeared in ads this summer on top of 25 Chicago cabs. Beside pictures of young women who were allegedly killed by their Muslim fathers for refusing an Islamic marriage, dating a non-Muslim or becoming "too Americanized" is the message: "Is your family threatening you?" and the Web address of LeaveIslamSafely.com.
Advertisement
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Though the placards appear to offer a haven for young women who want to leave Islam, critics contend the signs stoke fear among passengers and passers-by about the way an estimated half of the city's taxi drivers worship, and seek to suppress the religious liberty on which the nation was founded.

"We've tried to build a movement that respects others and to respect ourselves and work for our human rights," said Fayez Khozindar, chairman of the United Taxi Drivers Community Council, whose membership is mostly Muslim. "This isn't right."

The ads and the campaign against building the Park51 mosque near the site of the Sept. 11 attacks in New York show that nearly nine years since radical Muslim hijackers flew airplanes into the World Trade Center and Pentagon, a number of authors and activists have stepped up to tell Americans that they believe Muslims are waging a surreptitious offensive to supplant the U.S. Constitution with Islamic law.

"If you're devout, you believe in the Shariah," Geller said. "I don't believe in the institution of foreign law. I believe in the separation of church and state or mosque and state."

But many Muslim scholars and civil rights advocates say Geller and other self-proclaimed truth-tellers are malicious activists who have capitalized on the terrorist attacks to create a cottage industry bent on bashing people of goodwill and championing religious freedom for all Americans except Muslims.

John Esposito, a professor of international affairs and Islamic studies at Georgetown University, said religious defamation and Islam-bashing have become more acceptable in the U.S. since the Sept. 11 attacks.

"People like Pam Geller have a horrendous record," he said. "It's a track record of not distinguishing between forms of religious terrorism and Islam itself."

52 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:53:22pm

Tell somebody they're your enemy and you'll almost always be right.

53 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:58:31pm

The thing we have to remember, though, is this isn't new.

All too many Americans have said that they "know nothing" about it for too long. But it still isn't new.

This isn't the first time.

Americans did this to the Irish and the rest of the Catholics who dared to leave Maryland.

Americans did this to the Chinese we needed to build the railroads.

Americans did this to the Eastern European Jews escaping the Pogroms.

Americans did this to the Germans who had been here for generations because of WWI.

Americans did this to the Japanese who had been here for generations because of WWII.

And to every other group of Others that has come here looking for a new hope.

There is no new thing under the sun until we make there be something new.

That's why the Civil Rights movement is so important. When that cultural center is built, at Park 51 we'll be a little bit closer to where we should be. To living up to our ideals. To being America.

54 Irenicum  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 6:59:07pm

I find it very strange that after 9/11 we didn't see this level of xenophobia at work. And yet now it seems to be going through the roof. Obviously Geller and Spencer have played their evil part, but they've been at this hate game for years now. Why is it "catching" now? Is it the economic turmoil and that we elected a President who doesn't look like the previous Presidents and has a foreign sounding name? Why now for this phobic upsurge?

55 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:00:47pm

re: #54 Irenicum

It's exactly that. Black president with an islamic-sounding name.

56 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:00:58pm

re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist

Better beer and public transit! Less fascism!!

Give us credit for something, we invented the Swedish Bikini Team!

57 freetoken  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:01:03pm

re: #45 Fozzie Bear


Until we learn to be a little more resilient as a culture, and not freak the fuck out whenever somebody does something dumb, we are puppets to be played by the likes of Osama Bin Laden.

We already are a rather resilient culture, but accepting that is the opposite of what Geller et. al. desire.

58 prairiefire  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:02:16pm

re: #53 wlewisiii

Hey, the email system for LGF does not work with my Mac. this is the sauce recipe from this morning~thanks.[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

59 Irenicum  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:03:18pm

re: #55 windsagio

As much as I was extremely proud of what our country did in November of 2008 I did worry deeply that it would unleash some dormant demons in our national psyche. I fear I was right.

60 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:03:24pm

re: #45 Fozzie Bear

Always liked you Fozzie, but that one...it's a keeper. thanks

61 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:04:05pm

re: #59 Irenicum

The positive way of looking at it is: "We're finally forcing ourselves to come to terms with the more ugly parts of our heritage".

62 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:04:28pm

re: #18 Gus 802

Wow. After Tweeting this I took a look around #tcot. So many conservatives have drunk the Koolaid. Also saw this from that crazed loser Debbie Schlussel:

Jesus H.

We're now rooting against Miss USA because she's Muslim?

That's disturbing.

At least Pam Geller supports Rima.

63 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:04:33pm

re: #61 windsagio

The positive way of looking at it is: "We're finally forcing ourselves to come to terms with the more ugly parts of our heritage".

More like, "Look, HARRY REID!"

64 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:04:45pm

re: #53 wlewisiii

The thing we have to remember, though, is this isn't new.
All too many Americans have said that they "know nothing" about it for too long. But it still isn't new.
This isn't the first time.
Americans did this to the Irish and the rest of the Catholics who dared to leave Maryland.
Americans did this to the Chinese we needed to build the railroads.
Americans did this to the Eastern European Jews escaping the Pogroms.
Americans did this to the Germans who had been here for generations because of WWI.
Americans did this to the Japanese who had been here for generations because of WWII.
And to every other group of Others that has come here looking for a new hope.
There is no new thing under the sun until we make there be something new.
That's why the Civil Rights movement is so important. When that cultural center is built, at Park 51 we'll be a little bit closer to where we should be. To living up to our ideals. To being America.

A toast to this post. Well said.

65 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:04:54pm

re: #58 prairiefire

Thanks! I'll look forward to trying it. We do pasta every Monday, so perhaps next week. (had calmari, clam, mussle, shrimp & mushroom sauteed and then tossed with pesto tonight)

66 prairiefire  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:05:05pm

re: #59 Irenicum

As much as I was extremely proud of what our country did in November of 2008 I did worry deeply that it would unleash some dormant demons in our national psyche. I fear I was right.

Isn't it strange that a Republican president kept a lid on these people. Maybe they feel unhinged because they feel vulnerable and unprotected.

67 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:06:17pm

re: #53 wlewisiii

The thing we have to remember, though, is this isn't new.

All too many Americans have said that they "know nothing" about it for too long. But it still isn't new.

This isn't the first time.

Americans did this to the Irish and the rest of the Catholics who dared to leave Maryland.

Americans did this to the Chinese we needed to build the railroads.

Americans did this to the Eastern European Jews escaping the Pogroms.

Americans did this to the Germans who had been here for generations because of WWI.

Americans did this to the Japanese who had been here for generations because of WWII.

And to every other group of Others that has come here looking for a new hope.

There is no new thing under the sun until we make there be something new.

That's why the Civil Rights movement is so important. When that cultural center is built, at Park 51 we'll be a little bit closer to where we should be. To living up to our ideals. To being America.

Awesome post. Updinged.

68 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:07:32pm

re: #51 Dark_Falcon

On Topic: I'd seen "Leave Islam Safely ads on Chicago taxis in the loop a couple times these past 4 weeks but it was not until today I found out the Shrieking Harpy was behind them:

Taxi ads stir controversy
Ads imply leaving Islam is dangerous for women
August 22, 2010|By Manya A. Brachear, Tribune reporter

Uh, do they have an actual organization that's prepared to help Muslim women getting out of a bad situation, or are they just playing Underground Railroad?

69 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:08:31pm

re: #63 Varek Raith

hahahaha

"ROBERT BYRD!"

70 darthstar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:08:45pm

Banjo and Fozzie(closest to camera) after our evening run.

71 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:10:06pm

re: #70 darthstar

Banjo and Fozzie(closest to camera) after our evening run.

re: #45 Fozzie Bear

!
///
;)

73 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:10:52pm

re: #27 prairiefire

Fozzie~ OT~ this is our wee mighty beastie. Thanks for your help in caring for him:[Link: imgur.com...]

Oh, he looks nice and healthy! I'm glad to be able to help.

74 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:11:45pm

The run was great darthstar, but look out, later I'll be humping your leg.

75 Irenicum  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:12:13pm

re: #66 prairiefire

I think you're right on that. Many folks who are giving themselves over to fear and hatred have actual legitimate fears, especially economic ones. They've seen years of work go down the drain in a very short time and have a hard time understanding why. In such an environment it makes sense that someone offering a convenient enemy to blame, whether a foreign sounding president or other scapegoats, would get a hearing. I think it's important that we not poopoo some of the real fears besetting so many folks and recognize that they are afraid for some very good reasons. We have to offer a better narrative and explanation of what's going on so that they don't fall for these hateful snake oil salesmen and saleswomen like Geller and Spencer.

76 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:13:03pm

re: #66 prairiefire

Isn't it strange that a Republican president kept a lid on these people. Maybe they feel unhinged because they feel vulnerable and unprotected.

It's not strange at all. The party in power can actually delieve on some of its promises, which leads its erstwhile crazies to temper their behavior somewhat in the hopes of getting things they want. Moreover, the fact that passing legislation usually requires compromise reduces the public demand for purity. And finally, the party in power normally has a functional leadership, who are normally sane people and can at least quiet the crazies down.

77 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:13:24pm

re: #72 darthstar

Two more:
Sun over the hill

Bflat and some weathered looking chair cushions.

Nice.

78 darthstar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:14:01pm

re: #74 Fozzie Bear

The run was great darthstar, but look out, later I'll be humping your leg.

You only hump white labs, Fozzie...male white labs. You're very specific about that, by the way.

79 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:14:40pm

re: #78 darthstar

What can I say, I know what I like, and I go for it.

80 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:14:46pm

re: #78 darthstar

You only hump white labs, Fozzie...male white labs. You're very specific about that, by the way.

Heh, I'm reminded of the South Park episode about the gay dog...

81 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:16:36pm

re: #68 SanFranciscoZionist

Uh, do they have an actual organization that's prepared to help Muslim women getting out of a bad situation, or are they just playing Underground Railroad?

No, they're just playing. Actually keeping said women safe would require helping them keep a low profile, which Geller is unable to do. She'd "protect" someone but only would then flip out if that woman declined to help provide anti-Islam statements.

82 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:17:42pm

"Warzone: Tower Defense" has got to be the most addictive flash game ever.

83 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:18:20pm

re: #51 Dark_Falcon

So, what to convert them to?

Gah, it's bad. The only good Muslim is the converted one.

Thanks for the on the ground reporting.

84 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:18:34pm

re: #82 Fozzie Bear

"Warzone: Tower Defense" has got to be the most addictive flash game ever.

[Link: mikengreg.com...]

This.

85 Gus  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:19:10pm

When white kids riot it barely makes the news.

86 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:19:15pm

re: #66 prairiefire

Isn't it strange that a Republican president kept a lid on these people. Maybe they feel unhinged because they feel vulnerable and unprotected.

Bush did project a "just like us" image to most bible-belt white folks. As such, I think that a lot of people who might be worried about Islam felt they could trust him to look into it, and that if there was a problem, he'd toss some bombs or let them know or whatever. Basically, racists were projecting their racism onto him. I think that as long as he was in charge, they felt they didn't have to "speak out" on these things themselves. I'm not saying they were accurate, but I do think that projection was earned given the amount of dog-whistle red meat Rove has Bush tossing out to the "base."

87 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:21:05pm

re: #81 Dark_Falcon

No, they're just playing. Actually keeping said women safe would require helping them keep a low profile, which Geller is unable to do. She'd "protect" someone but only would then flip out if that woman declined to help provide anti-Islam statements.

That seems really dangerous to me. They're essentially asking battered or threatened women to go to them for help. If they can't provide real help, and I don't think they can, that's pretty screwed up.

88 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:21:18pm

re: #76 Dark_Falcon

It's not strange at all. The party in power can actually delieve on some of its promises, which leads its erstwhile crazies to temper their behavior somewhat in the hopes of getting things they want. Moreover, the fact that passing legislation usually requires compromise reduces the public demand for purity. And finally, the party in power normally has a functional leadership, who are normally sane people and can at least quiet the crazies down.

This seems to suggest that Obama is somehow responsible for the way the anti-Muslim crowd is behaving, and/or that there were some kinds of positive policies that Bush enacted that Obama hasn't that helped prevent overt racism from coming out.

I disagree with both suggestions.

89 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:22:04pm

re: #54 Irenicum

I find it very strange that after 9/11 we didn't see this level of xenophobia at work. And yet now it seems to be going through the roof. Obviously Geller and Spencer have played their evil part, but they've been at this hate game for years now. Why is it "catching" now? Is it the economic turmoil and that we elected a President who doesn't look like the previous Presidents and has a foreign sounding name? Why now for this phobic upsurge?

No leaders.

The GOP I will blame 1st. They are the ones talking the most.

2nd I'll blame the Democratic Party and Obama, they don't want to step out on electoral ledge.

THEY SHOULD. I swear anyone who stands up has my vote.

90 Irenicum  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:22:11pm

re: #86 elbruce

That's the impression I got as well. My more conservative Christian friends saw Bush as "one of us" and gave him the benefit of the doubt. Believe me, they're not giving Obama any benefit of any doubt.

91 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:22:21pm

re: #87 SanFranciscoZionist

That seems really dangerous to me. They're essentially asking battered or threatened women to go to them for help. If they can't provide real help, and I don't think they can, that's pretty screwed up.

Nah, they don't really care if anybody calls the "help line." They just want to spread the insinuation that Muslims in New York are beating their wives.

92 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:22:42pm

re: #83 Stanley Sea

So, what to convert them to?

Gah, it's bad. The only good Muslim is the converted one.

Thanks for the on the ground reporting.

Thank the Chicago Tribune. I know the article doesn't lay into Geller like we do, but its a news article so it has to be fairly even-handed.

93 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:24:18pm

Hard to argue with Aslan's points here. All I know is I feel uncomfortable with the rise of Islamaphobia in this country and I can't imagine how I'd feel if I were Muslim.

94 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:24:32pm

re: #91 elbruce

Nah, they don't really care if anybody calls the "help line." They just want to spread the insinuation that Muslims in New York are beating their wives.

That could get a woman dead, if she acts on the belief that they are legit.

95 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:25:19pm

re: #85 Gus 802

When white kids riot it barely makes the news.

Yep. Not a word.

96 Irenicum  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:25:21pm

re: #89 Stanley Sea

Unfortunately you and only a handful of other principled people. I think that's the problem. Real leadership requires personal sacrifice and none of our elected leaders are willing to do that.

97 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:25:23pm

re: #82 Fozzie Bear

"Warzone: Tower Defense" has got to be the most addictive flash game ever.

Tower Defense games always are.
:)

98 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:25:47pm

re: #92 Dark_Falcon

Thank the Chicago Tribune. I know the article doesn't lay into Geller like we do, but its a news article so it has to be fairly even-handed.

The Tribune remains my go to for a reasonably conservative newspaper. I used to read it & the WSJ to balance my NYTimes reading but thanks to Murdoch I'm down to the one.

99 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:25:57pm

re: #88 elbruce

This seems to suggest that Obama is somehow responsible for the way the anti-Muslim crowd is behaving, and/or that there were some kinds of positive policies that Bush enacted that Obama hasn't that helped prevent overt racism from coming out.

I disagree with both suggestions.

I'm not saying that. The GOP is out of power and Obama is clearly not going to listen to its crazies, so the crazies have little incentive to behave (except right near election time, when some of them will quiet down). And the fact that many of the nuts thought Bush could enact policies they wanted enacted kept them from letting their freak flag fly because they were told it would hurt him (which it would have).

100 Nimed  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:26:57pm

re: #28 Charles

OT: thanks to Obdicut for defending LGF from attacks by both the deranged right and the deranged left:

[Link: www.thelibertypapers.org...]

re: #38 Gus 802

Ah, I see the usual wankers found their way to that blog.

Nice job, Obdicut. But man, those completely trashed the comment section. If you ever find yourself arguing in favor of the need of comment moderation, all you have to do is link to that thread.

In addition, and in case anyone has doubts that "bunny" possum has very serious issues, here is one of his comments:

No way!!!! I am having fun!

Exposing bigots and bigotry and taking a sideways poke at Jews who gang raped me.

From the context, he is referring to fellow commenters of the stalker blog -- nice, huh?

101 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:27:33pm

re: #90 Irenicum

That's the impression I got as well. My more conservative Christian friends saw Bush as "one of us" and gave him the benefit of the doubt.

Which itself is odd, considering his longstanding family and business ties with the Sauds and Bin Ladens, not to mention that proposed Bahrain port deal. If I were an Islamaphobe, I wouldn't have any reason to trust him. But hey, he was white and talked like a hick while invading Iraq and regularly threatening Iran, so...

102 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:27:44pm

re: #100 Nimed

re: #38 Gus 802

Nice job, Obdicut. But man, those completely trashed the comment section. If you ever find yourself arguing in favor of the need of comment moderation, all you have to do is link to that thread.

In addition, and in case anyone has doubts that "bunny" possum has very serious issues, here is one of his comments:

From the context, he is referring to fellow commenters of the stalker blog -- nice, huh?

After the way he treated Jadespring, I have absolutely no doubt that he has issues. Serious, over-time issues.

103 b_snark  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:27:52pm

I give up.

Sayonara folks.

104 Racer X  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:27:52pm

re: #95 Stanley Sea

Yep. Not a word.

Um, except the front page at the Denver Post.

;-)

105 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:28:41pm

re: #28 Charles

OT: thanks to Obdicut for defending LGF from attacks by both the deranged right and the deranged left:

[Link: www.thelibertypapers.org...]

Obdi did an excellent job.

106 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:29:10pm

re: #90 Irenicum

That's the impression I got as well. My more conservative Christian friends saw Bush as "one of us" and gave him the benefit of the doubt. Believe me, they're not giving Obama any benefit of any doubt.

I think you're right unfortunately. I got a nine year old brother, fourteen years younger than me. I don't like talking politics and stuff around his friends for obvious reasons but the kids were talking about Obama one day and one of his friends said that Obama was basically bad news because he had a funny name. I pointed out that his name means blessed I believe in Arabic and my own first name (super common) is Hebrew in origin and that someone's first name shouldn't matter. Kid kinda got the point but persisted with it.

107 Irenicum  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:29:59pm

re: #101 elbruce

The base heard the key words and ignored the rest. We see the same with hard core Obama supporters. It's fairly common ideological behavior.

108 Gus  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:30:16pm

Ibrodsky angry. Mongo not like LGF no more. Downding everything.

109 Nimed  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:30:25pm

re: #97 Varek Raith

Tower Defense games always are.
:)

Also, and unlike with most video games, it seems womenfolk aren't resistant to Tower Defense.

/sorry marj, you know I speak the truth.

110 Gus  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:31:07pm

Hey! Ibrodsky. Come and join us and share your wingnut thoughts.

111 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:31:11pm

re: #108 Gus 802

Ibrodsky angry. Mongo not like LGF no more. Downding everything.

Ug SMASH!

112 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:31:52pm

re: #108 Gus 802

Ibrodsky angry. Mongo not like LGF no more. Downding everything.

Come on out, Ibrodsky! You've got enough comments here to hold your own; Post and make your case!

113 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:32:52pm

re: #66 prairiefire

Isn't it strange that a Republican president kept a lid on these people. Maybe they feel unhinged because they feel vulnerable and unprotected.

Well, I think it's about misguided respect.

114 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:32:58pm

And as soon I posted that "thank you" to Obdicut, another stalker showed up to rant some more. Oh hai stalkers!

115 Irenicum  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:33:27pm

re: #106 HappyWarrior

Reminds me of a conversation I had many many years ago with my best friend about "black people" when we were both kids. He didn't like em b/c "they" did bad things, even though he had never met one! I asked him how he "knew" this then? He told me his father told him. That's how the contagion of racism is spread.

116 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:33:34pm

re: #114 Charles

And as soon I posted that "thank you" to Obdicut, another stalker showed up to rant some more. Oh hai stalkers!

You and Obi live in their heads.

117 Racer X  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:33:39pm

re: #108 Gus 802

Ibrodsky angry. Mongo not like LGF no more. Downding everything.

Dude is going to town.

/rageboner.

118 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:33:47pm

re: #70 darthstar

Banjo and Fozzie(closest to camera) after our evening run.

BEAUTIES.

119 prairiefire  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:34:01pm

re: #87 SanFranciscoZionist

That seems really dangerous to me. They're essentially asking battered or threatened women to go to them for help. If they can't provide real help, and I don't think they can, that's pretty screwed up.

It is incredibly screwed up and morally wrong. "Millstone around the neck" type of wrong.

120 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:36:54pm

re: #115 Irenicum

Reminds me of a conversation I had many many years ago with my best friend about "black people" when we were both kids. He didn't like em b/c "they" did bad things, even though he had never met one! I asked him how he "knew" this then? He told me his father told him. That's how the contagion of racism is spread.


Yep, I personally like using humor in situations like that. I jokingly pointed out that John McCain's middle name is Sidney which is sometimes a girl's name. I always hated talking politics when I was a kid since many of my friends had parents that had some really nutty views especially about the Clintons and racial minorities and my friends would parrot it. I didn't begrudge them, after all we were kids but I never thought much of their parents because of it.

121 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:37:23pm

re: #86 elbruce

Bush did project a "just like us" image to most bible-belt white folks. As such, I think that a lot of people who might be worried about Islam felt they could trust him to look into it, and that if there was a problem, he'd toss some bombs or let them know or whatever. Basically, racists were projecting their racism onto him. I think that as long as he was in charge, they felt they didn't have to "speak out" on these things themselves. I'm not saying they were accurate, but I do think that projection was earned given the amount of dog-whistle red meat Rove has Bush tossing out to the "base."

I don't know about people projecting their racism onto Bush.

But these people, the ones going nuts now, did indeed, as you say, trust Bush and that administration to protect us, this country, in a way that they do not trust Obama. We saw that here quite clearly, IIRC, before the Great Flounces began.

122 Gus  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:37:26pm

BBL

123 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:38:42pm

re: #81 Dark_Falcon

No, they're just playing. Actually keeping said women safe would require helping them keep a low profile, which Geller is unable to do. She'd "protect" someone but only would then flip out if that woman declined to help provide anti-Islam statements.

Geller wants to use these people as pawns in her game.

124 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:41:16pm

re: #123 reine.de.tout

Geller wants to use these people as pawns in her game.

Exactly. Really helping them would require selflessness that she does not possess. "I'm just offering a service" is simply a variation on "I'm just asking questions."

125 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:41:34pm

re: #121 reine.de.tout

I don't know about people projecting their racism onto Bush.

But these people, the ones going nuts now, did indeed, as you say, trust Bush and that administration to protect us, this country, in a way that they do not trust Obama. We saw that here quite clearly, IIRC, before the Great Flounces began.

I think they clearly identified with Bush in a way that they cannot with Obama, and that in large part this involves individual albedo.

126 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:42:57pm

re: #9 freetoken

It's been said many times in many ways, but I accept the basic premise: those who obsess over their enemies become like them.

The reactionary anti-muslim crowd (Geller et. al.) increasingly become extreme as they only think and dwell upon violent Islamicists such as AQ. Now Geller et. al. see enemies where there are none.

Thankfully this country is so diverse that the haters only will sway a segment of society, not all of it.

Beware when you battle monsters,
lest you become a monster.
And as you gaze into the abyss,
the abyss gazes also,
into you.

One of the few intelligent things Frederich Nietzsche ever said.

Also...

"What you resist, you become." Ancient Taoist aphorism.

127 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:44:30pm

re: #96 Irenicum

Unfortunately you and only a handful of other principled people. I think that's the problem. Real leadership requires personal sacrifice and none of our elected leaders are willing to do that.

Maybe this will result in the failing of parties (GOP) or the splintering of the Dems.

Standing on the side of right.

128 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:46:09pm

re: #125 goddamnedfrank

I think they clearly identified with Bush in a way that they cannot with Obama, and that in large part this involves individual albedo.

I think party had something to do with it as well. Would Colin Powell get the same level of abuse if he was POTUS via a Republican ticket?

(Though I have serious doubts that such a ticket would ever had had a chance in the GOP. And I also think Powell was rational about the liabilities of making such a run. And, finally, I think Powell's loyalty to the administration which employed him was poorly repaid.)

129 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:47:35pm

re: #124 Dark_Falcon

Exactly. Really helping them would require selflessness that she does not possess. "I'm just offering a service" is simply a variation on "I'm just asking questions."

Their website is stomach-churning.

130 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:48:24pm

re: #107 Irenicum

The base heard the key words and ignored the rest. We see the same with hard core Obama supporters.

Really? I find it can be hard to get behind most of Obama's statements unless you process all the words he's saying. Not to the degree that it is with Kerry's circumlocutions, but Obama's statements rarely seem to lend themselves to bumper-sticker sloganeering.

A really clear example I can think of was the original exchange between candidate Obama and Joe the Plumber. The first reports about it that I saw from left-leaning bloggers were titled things like "Politician Actually Answers a Question," and went on about how remarkable it was that Obama would take the time (5 1/2 minutes!) to talk Joe's ear off with a detailed explanation about how progressive taxation helps out the average person througout the life of their career. What did the right wing hear from all that? "Spread the Wealth." Just three words, and nothing else.

This "boil everything down to a slogan" thing isn't very evenly distributed between left and right these days. It's very much on one side, and is very much the legacy of Rove.

131 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:49:07pm

re: #125 goddamnedfrank

I think they clearly identified with Bush in a way that they cannot with Obama, and that in large part this involves individual albedo.


I had to go look up "albedo".
You meant it as "reflection of self"?

132 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:49:14pm

re: #128 oaktree

And, finally, I think Powell's loyalty to the administration which employed him was poorly repaid.

Quoted for truth, alas. If there was anyone in that administration that deserved better it was him.

133 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:49:24pm

All I can say is I am glad I stopped really talking politics face to face with people after Bush beat Kerry. Yeah the "He's an elitist, flip-flopper" arguments were annoying but boy am I glad I never had to talk politics during Obama Vs McCain. Picked a good time to work hard on transferring from Comm college to a four year school and to take no poli sci classes.

134 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:50:18pm

re: #28 Charles

OT: thanks to Obdicut for defending LGF from attacks by both the deranged right and the deranged left:

[Link: www.thelibertypapers.org...]

A lot of familiar names stinking up that thread...they must have some sort of Batsignal whenever there's something out there for which they want to have a LGF/Charles hatefest and dampen/kill any rational discourse.

135 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:50:52pm

re: #131 reine.de.tout

I had to go look up "albedo".
You meant it as "reflection of self"?

Reflectivity, as in, how white he is.

136 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:51:08pm

re: #124 Dark_Falcon

Really helping them would require selflessness that she does not possess. "I'm just offering a service" is simply a variation on "I'm just asking questions."

If she actually cared about spousal abuse, she'd just forward that phone number to a real battered womens' helpline. The ads would still serve her primary purpose, which is to slander a culture.

137 Irenicum  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:51:34pm

re: #127 Stanley Sea

If we elected by percentage/proportionally I think we'd see a shift in our politics away from the current duality. But since we don't I suspect we're going to see further polarization. I also suspect that too many Americans are unwilling to own up to their own responsibility in our collective indebtedness and financial irresponsibility. It's emotionally easier to blame the rich (if you're on the left) or foreigners (if you're on the right) than to accept personal responsibility.

138 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:51:40pm

re: #130 elbruce

Really? I find it can be hard to get behind most of Obama's statements unless you process all the words he's saying. Not to the degree that it is with Kerry's circumlocutions, but Obama's statements rarely seem to lend themselves to bumper-sticker sloganeering.

A really clear example I can think of was the original exchange between candidate Obama and Joe the Plumber. The first reports about it that I saw from left-leaning bloggers were titled things like "Politician Actually Answers a Question," and went on about how remarkable it was that Obama would take the time (5 1/2 minutes!) to talk Joe's ear off with a detailed explanation about how progressive taxation helps out the average person througout the life of their career. What did the right wing hear from all that? "Spread the Wealth." Just three words, and nothing else.

This "boil everything down to a slogan" thing isn't very evenly distributed between left and right these days. It's very much on one side, and is very much the legacy of Rove.

Here's a point: when a presidential candidate tells you that he wants to spread your wealth, BELIEVE HIM.

139 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:52:59pm

re: #138 MandyManners

Here's a point: when a presidential candidate tells you that he wants to spread your wealth, BELIEVE HIM.

You should listen to the rest of the words in that exchange too. But thanks for proving my point, I guess.

140 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:53:24pm

re: #138 MandyManners

Here's a point: when a presidential candidate tells you that he wants to spread your wealth, BELIEVE HIM.

Except that's not really what he said. It's just what you heard. It's an absurd oversimplification of a progressive tax code.

141 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:53:27pm

re: #136 elbruce

If she actually cared about spousal abuse, she'd just forward that phone number to a real battered womens' helpline. The ads would still serve her primary purpose, which is to slander a culture.

Yes. The point is to rake in more 'apostates in danger', not to help women who might, God forbid, want to escape abuse and keep their faith.

She brings up Rifqa Bary's name on the website, continuing to insist that she's been repeatedly threatened for leaving Islam.

143 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:54:37pm

re: #139 elbruce

You should listen to the rest of the words in that exchange too. But thanks for proving my point, I guess.

I should do *what*?

Son, I was on top of it.

144 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:54:57pm

Republican Belang!
/Nationalism stinks

145 Lidane  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:55:10pm

re: #133 HappyWarrior

The only discussions I had about politics during 2008 were with my Republican friends who were embarrassed by the Palin selection and were either going to vote Obama ot stay home because of it. All the crazy they were seeing after she got named McCain's Veep made my friends question their loyalties.

If I talked to my left wing friends, it was to gloat when they told me that Edwards would be the nominee and I said it would be a cold day in Hell, since he not only struck me as sleazy, but he'd been on Kerry's losing ticket four years earlier. The Edwards affair breaking only proved me right.

I haven't talked politics face to face with anyone since then, and I'm all the happier for it. I get it all out online here or at a couple of other sites.

146 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:55:17pm

re: #108 Gus 802

Ibrodsky angry. Mongo not like LGF no more. Downding everything.

That's only because Imam Rauf pulled off his rubber face mask revealing himself to actually be Osama Bin Laden, whereupon he and Barack Obama ran off and got gay-married in an abortion clinic while eating arugula and disagreeing with John Yoo about whether it was OK to sexually maim children in service of investigating terrorism. Then they raised millionaires' marginal tax rate by 2%, thus prompting thousands of people who would be lucky to clear $40k to take to the streets denouncing the tyranny of confiscatory taxes that they will never have to pay.

Or something.

147 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:55:24pm

re: #104 Racer X

Um, except the front page at the Denver Post.

;-)

Rush, or nothing.

148 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:55:30pm

re: #134 talon_262

A lot of familiar names stinking up that thread...they must have some sort of Batsignal whenever there's something out there for which they want to have a LGF/Charles hatefest and dampen/kill any rational discourse.

It is pretty amazing how they all gathered there, isn't it?

149 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:56:35pm

re: #136 elbruce

If she actually cared about spousal abuse, she'd just forward that phone number to a real battered womens' helpline. The ads would still serve her primary purpose, which is to slander a culture.

Indeed. Honor killings are a real issue, but they can be dealt with shelters ans survivors help networks. They don't require a special program to "leave Islam safely". Moreover, signs like that have a negative effect on Muslims who are moderate and fair-minded. They may plant the idea that the radicals were right: the Islam really is under attack. So congrats, Pam, you proved you have no strategic sense whatsoever!

150 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:56:56pm

re: #131 reine.de.tout

I had to go look up "albedo".
You meant it as "reflection of self"?

Albedo is an imaging (astronomy) measure of surface reflectivity, how much light bounces back off of an object versus how much is falling on it. A reflective light meter (through the lens camera type) measures albedo, an incident light meter measures luminosity. Black people naturally have a lower albedo, and images of them are often overexposed as a result.

151 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:57:44pm

re: #140 Fozzie Bear

Except that's not really what he said. It's just what you heard. It's an absurd oversimplification of a progressive tax code.

Oh, my.

152 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:58:31pm

re: #115 Irenicum

Reminds me of a conversation I had many many years ago with my best friend about "black people" when we were both kids. He didn't like em b/c "they" did bad things, even though he had never met one! I asked him how he "knew" this then? He told me his father told him. That's how the contagion of racism is spread.

More people should get that.

"When a child looks at a bird, he looks at its splendid colours, the texture of its feathers, its surprised movements, its cooing and the whole spectrum of events delights him. Then comes along Father who must intervene in the son's own interests and tell him that this is a robin, that is a swallow and that he had better know the difference." -J. Krishnamurti

153 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:58:56pm

re: #151 MandyManners

Oh, Mandy!

154 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:59:05pm

re: #149 Dark_Falcon

Indeed. Honor killings are a real issue, but they can be dealt with shelters ans survivors help networks. They don't require a special program to "leave Islam safely". Moreover, signs like that have a negative effect on Muslims who are moderate and fair-minded. They may plant the idea that the radicals were right: the Islam really is under attack. So congrats, Pam, you proved you have no strategic sense whatsoever!

Also, most honor killings are about sex, or control of women in the family unit, NOT family members who want to become Christians. Seriously.

155 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:59:17pm

re: #149 Dark_Falcon

Indeed. Honor killings are a real issue, but they can be dealt with shelters ans survivors help networks. They don't require a special program to "leave Islam safely". Moreover, signs like that have a negative effect on Muslims who are moderate and fair-minded. They may plant the idea that the radicals were right: the Islam really is under attack. So congrats, Pam, you proved you have no strategic sense whatsoever!

Can you tell me how successful such programs are in Europe?

156 lostlakehiker  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 7:59:41pm

re: #45 Fozzie Bear

Ok, somewhat OT, but not really:

I was thinking about the GWOT and any imaginable definable criteria for "victory", and the situation in Israel/gaza/west bank, and the link posted in #28 reminded me of the whole flap over people getting death threats for depicting Muhammad.

All three situations have something in common. These are all situations where a large number of people desire stability and peace, but any determined small minority can derail that stability. We have to have a paradigm shift, as a culture, if we are to avoid falling prey to hysterical thinking.

Any terrorist attack conducted by a handful of people which kills Americans will inevitably be viewed as a failure in the GWOT.
Any terrorist attack in Israel conducted by a handful of people will inevitably derail the peace process.
All it takes is one Muslim overreacting to a drawing of the prophet to make a death threat, and everybody flips out as though Islam as a whole just declared a jihad on us.

This kind of thinking is, quite frankly, cowardice. We need to stop being such fucking cowards. You cannot stop a determined individual or small group that does not care if they survive an attempt to cause harm, from causing harm. It isn't possible, period. Even total top-down control, abject despotism, could not prevent such a thing.

Until we learn to be a little more resilient as a culture, and not freak the fuck out whenever somebody does something dumb, we are puppets to be played by the likes of Osama Bin Laden.

Absolutely. Of course, this goes for the American Muslim community as well. A despicable, despised, and insignificant minority of Americans are responsible for the SIOA stuff. We can no more prevent their clacking, than the Islamic community in America can entirely prevent the staging of small-scaleterrorist attacks inside the U.S.


We, both groups, must not permit crazies and fringies to throw us off balance. The big picture is now, and remains notwithstanding this or that flap, one of good will and cooperation. It is the American way, and it is the way that most Muslims in America have chosen.

157 Racer X  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:00:01pm

re: #151 MandyManners

Easy there.

You old commies know nothing of socialism.

158 Irenicum  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:00:18pm

re: #130 elbruce

During the campaign Obama had plenty of bumper sticker slogans that the left ate up like ice cream. I told my left friends that he wasn't as left as they thought he was and would have liked, and I told my right friends that he wasn't as left as they feared. Good campaigning is all about simplifying your message and keeping it as aspirational and vague as possible so that it can appeal to as many people as possible so that they project their own hopes onto your candidacy. The candidacy was brilliant. The governance not so much.

159 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:00:21pm

re: #155 MandyManners

Can you tell me how successful such programs are in Europe?

Shelters for abused women, or shelters for lapsed Muslims?

160 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:00:51pm

re: #143 MandyManners

I should do *what*?

Son, I was on top of it.

In my prior post, I was criticizing those who from that entire exchange only heard or wanted to discuss or comment on three words. Then you replied with

Here's a point: when a presidential candidate tells you that he wants to spread your wealth, BELIEVE HIM.


Which I would submit constitutes an example of exactly the sort of behavior I was talking about.

To me, the gist of Obama's lecture was that for anyone who's trying to advance their career throughout their life, progressive taxes end up being the equivalent to a transfer of wealth from the future you (who will pay more) to the current you (who is paying less). That in turn makes it easier to make it to being rich in the first place, or at least to be able to do so more quickly.

Makes a lot of sense to me. And it takes a lot more than three words to say.

161 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:00:58pm

re: #157 Racer X

Easy there.

You old commies know nothing of socialism.

Old commies, my ass.

162 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:03:24pm

OK, Mac-savvy Lizardim, I am in big trouble here, and need advice.

My old 2006 iMac seems to have just up and died.

First it went fritzy in the middle of the last thread. Had to do a hard reboot.

When it came back up, things were still majorly fritzy, e.g. my left-handed mouse would only work as if it were right-handed, and I couldn't really access any programs.

Second reboot: same thing, only worse.

Now, after rebooting several times, all I get after the startup "Apple" tone is a blank screen with a folder icon in the middle, and in the middle of that, a question mark.

Normally I would insert the startup disk (Snow Leopard) and try to boot from that, but there is already a DVD in there, and Apple seems to provide no way to tease it out of there with a pinhole and a paper clip.

So I'm stuck.

I'm currently accessing LGF from my equally old iBook G4 and a piggybacked WiFi account from the neighbors.

Does all this mean my hard disk is dead? Is there anything I can do tonight in advance of trucking the iMac over to the repair shop tomorrow morning?

I'm at a loss and feeling kinda desperate. There are translations jobs on the iMac that I haven't backed up or billed for yet.

And advice or solace will be greatly appreciated. Buying a new desktop Mac is as far beyond my reach right now as an Astin-Martin 007 model bulletproof sportscar.

163 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:03:35pm

re: #159 SanFranciscoZionist

Shelters for abused women, or shelters for lapsed Muslims?

Is there really such a thing as the latter, in reality?

164 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:03:50pm

re: #158 Irenicum

I told my left friends that he wasn't as left as they thought he was and would have liked, and I told my right friends that he wasn't as left as they feared.

Oh, yeah, this. Quoted for truth & then some.

As a real lefty, I was amused all the way through the election and the casting of Obama as some radical lefty. Major humor. I happily voted for him as the best of the bunch but it was done knowing full well that he was as MOR as they come.

165 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:04:14pm

re: #159 SanFranciscoZionist

Shelters for abused women, or shelters for lapsed Muslims?

Don't go there, SFZ.

166 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:04:37pm

re: #163 Fozzie Bear

Is there really such a thing as the latter, in reality?

Not that I know about.

167 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:05:00pm

re: #165 MandyManners

Don't go there, SFZ.

Why not? I don't understand your question, and am trying to clarify.

168 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:05:23pm

re: #162 Cato the Elder

This really sounds like a bad hard drive, if only because hard drives are about a bajillion times more likely to spontaneously fail than any other part of the computer. But that would really be a rather wild guess without more information. (A fairly safe one though, if I were a betting man)

169 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:05:40pm

re: #158 Irenicum

The candidacy was brilliant. The governance not so much.

I'd mention in passing that going from having the bumbling McCain campaign for your opposition to having the GOP "filibuster machine" caucus for your opposition makes a difference as well.

170 lostlakehiker  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:05:53pm

re: #137 Irenicum

If we elected by percentage/proportionally I think we'd see a shift in our politics away from the current duality. But since we don't I suspect we're going to see further polarization. I also suspect that too many Americans are unwilling to own up to their own responsibility in our collective indebtedness and financial irresponsibility. It's emotionally easier to blame the rich (if you're on the left) or foreigners (if you're on the right) than to accept personal responsibility.

I blame the idea of increasing the percentage of homeowners beyond its natural limit. This idea was a perfect fit with Bush's agenda and with the Left's. It was no fit with reality.

To make this bad idea work for a time, we had to throw out the notion of requiring a serious down payment, and the idea of limiting loans to amounts the borrower could probably pay off.

171 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:06:05pm

re: #155 MandyManners

Can you tell me how successful such programs are in Europe?

They are reasonably successful, once a woman actually makes use of them. One thing that must be remembered is that many Muslim women have been threaten with damnation if they escape an abusive marriage. That is a very potent threat to someone who is concerned about their fate in the next life. I think such programs could do well here and could be enhanced with two additional elements:

1. Fatwas by some moderate imams legitimizing a woman leaving an abusive husband and creating Islamic procedures for such a woman to obtain a divorce.

2. Strong police action. Islamist in Europe have often kidnapped woman who flee abuse. In the US it should be made clear that such crimes will be prosecuted aggressively and will result in long prison terms.

172 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:06:16pm

re: #162 Cato the Elder

OK, Mac-savvy Lizardim, I am in big trouble here, and need advice.

My old 2006 iMac seems to have just up and died.

First it went fritzy in the middle of the last thread. Had to do a hard reboot.

When it came back up, things were still majorly fritzy, e.g. my left-handed mouse would only work as if it were right-handed, and I couldn't really access any programs.

Second reboot: same thing, only worse.

Now, after rebooting several times, all I get after the startup "Apple" tone is a blank screen with a folder icon in the middle, and in the middle of that, a question mark.

Normally I would insert the startup disk (Snow Leopard) and try to boot from that, but there is already a DVD in there, and Apple seems to provide no way to tease it out of there with a pinhole and a paper clip.

So I'm stuck.

I'm currently accessing LGF from my equally old iBook G4 and a piggybacked WiFi account from the neighbors.

Does all this mean my hard disk is dead? Is there anything I can do tonight in advance of trucking the iMac over to the repair shop tomorrow morning?

I'm at a loss and feeling kinda desperate. There are translations jobs on the iMac that I haven't backed up or billed for yet.

And advice or solace will be greatly appreciated. Buying a new desktop Mac is as far beyond my reach right now as an Astin-Martin 007 model bulletproof sportscar.

I don't know much about macs, but I will tell you that you can pick up a desktop for less than you'd think. I bought my wife an intel dual core mac for about 600 and got a copy of quarkxpress (she's in the newspaper business) later on for about 350.

Ebay is a good thing. You might always check out mac of all trades as well, they sometimes have some pretty good deals on used macs.

173 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:06:45pm

Just a note: I remember when Charles started bringing up the European xenophobic "blood-and-soil" types like the BNP and Vlaams Belaang and how Americans (such as Pamz and Spencer) were networking with them. More than a few Lizards (some of whom wound up at the Blog of the Damned and other stalker sites) were poopooing Charles for bringing it up, saying, more or less, "ehh, it's Europe...it'll never happen here".

Forward to today, with the Cordoba House/Park51 brouhaha and the talk about amending the 14th Amendment in order to prevent "anchor babies" (among other things)...that vile "blood-and-soil" shit is here in America and the bigots and xenophobes are working it for all its worth, preaching to their fellow travelers and preying on the politically ignorant.

The shit makes me sick to my stomach...I hope cooler, rational heads can prevail in cutting the "blood-and-soil" pukes off at the knees.

That shit doesn't belong here in America or anywhere else...

174 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:07:36pm

CATO:

reboot holding down the mouse button. That will eject the DVD.

Then reboot with your Snow Leo disk. Hopefully Disk Utility will save you but don't bet on it. You've got a disk going south for the winter there from the sound of it.

If it reboots successfully, then buy an external drive tomorrow and copy everything onto it. Then buy another new drive for inside your iMac. My name is blue if you want more advice by email.

175 austin_blue  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:07:48pm

re: #158 Irenicum

During the campaign Obama had plenty of bumper sticker slogans that the left ate up like ice cream. I told my left friends that he wasn't as left as they thought he was and would have liked, and I told my right friends that he wasn't as left as they feared. Good campaigning is all about simplifying your message and keeping it as aspirational and vague as possible so that it can appeal to as many people as possible so that they project their own hopes onto your candidacy. The candidacy was brilliant. The governance not so much.

And yet, he has gotten as much out of this Congress as he could. The gaspers are now showing their true colors and the R's are adopting the most radical right positions through the leadership's silence.

They are betting this will work come November.

I am betting that Independents will start gagging once the Ds point this out in the media.

It's not hard to do. Just roll the video.

176 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:07:51pm

re: #162 Cato the Elder

OK, Mac-savvy Lizardim, I am in big trouble here, and need advice.

My old 2006 iMac seems to have just up and died.

First it went fritzy in the middle of the last thread. Had to do a hard reboot.

When it came back up, things were still majorly fritzy, e.g. my left-handed mouse would only work as if it were right-handed, and I couldn't really access any programs.

Second reboot: same thing, only worse.

Now, after rebooting several times, all I get after the startup "Apple" tone is a blank screen with a folder icon in the middle, and in the middle of that, a question mark.

Normally I would insert the startup disk (Snow Leopard) and try to boot from that, but there is already a DVD in there, and Apple seems to provide no way to tease it out of there with a pinhole and a paper clip.

So I'm stuck.

I'm currently accessing LGF from my equally old iBook G4 and a piggybacked WiFi account from the neighbors.

Does all this mean my hard disk is dead? Is there anything I can do tonight in advance of trucking the iMac over to the repair shop tomorrow morning?

I'm at a loss and feeling kinda desperate. There are translations jobs on the iMac that I haven't backed up or billed for yet.

And advice or solace will be greatly appreciated. Buying a new desktop Mac is as far beyond my reach right now as an Astin-Martin 007 model bulletproof sportscar.

In general, even if you manage to recover your hard drive data and have to replace it, buy a back up external drive and back up on a regular basis.

177 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:08:36pm

Cato, I have no advice at all, but I am holding your computer in my heart.

178 What, me worry?  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:09:12pm

re: #162 Cato the Elder

Wild shot in the dark... and I don't have a Mac, just a PC, but the last few startup problems I had was the battery. New battery fixed the problem. I'm assuming the mac has a battery? Even so, as soon as I got the machine to boot, I backed up the drive.

179 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:09:29pm

Cato, the best thing you can do for the data on a computer with a questionably failing hard drive is do NOT use it. That drive only has so many revolutions left, if it is indeed failing. You need to have someone pull the drive out of it, and put it in another computer to pull the files off of it, if the data on it is important to you.

Related question: how attached are you to Mac OS, and have you ever worked with Window or another OS? I say this because you could obtain a relatively speedy Windows (or Linux) machine for a fraction of the cost of a similar Mac. (I assume money is an issue, because well, it always is for non-ridiculously-weralthy people)

180 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:09:29pm

re: #174 wlewisiii

If it reboots successfully, then buy an external drive tomorrow and copy everything onto it. Then buy another new drive for inside your iMac. My name is blue if you want more advice by email.

Better yet, purchase a computer that you can get fixed anywhere without being beholden to Apples evil totalitarian architecture. (Yeah, I know..)

The wife and I have a cross-platform relationship but we've made it work.

181 CuriousLurker  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:09:43pm

re: #171 Dark_Falcon

One thing that must be remembered is that many Muslim women have been threaten with damnation if they escape an abusive marriage. That is a very potent threat to someone who is concerned about their fate in the next life.

DF, can you please tell me where you got the idea that Islam that requires a woman to stay in an abusive marriage or suffer damnation?

182 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:11:01pm

re: #181 CuriousLurker

DF, can you please tell me where you got the idea that Islam that requires a woman to stay in an abusive marriage or suffer damnation?

I imagine that, as with Christians, the issue is not whether the religion requires it, but whether it's used to bolster up social custom.

183 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:11:21pm

re: #179 Fozzie Bear

Cato, the best thing you can do for the data on a computer with a questionably failing hard drive is do NOT use it. That drive only has so many revolutions left, if it is indeed failing. You need to have someone pull the drive out of it, and put it in another computer to pull the files off of it, if the data on it is important to you.

Related question: how attached are you to Mac OS, and have you ever worked with Window or another OS? I say this because you could obtain a relatively speedy Windows (or Linux) machine for a fraction of the cost of a similar Mac. (I assume money is an issue, because well, it always is for non-ridiculously-weralthy people)

I have several boxes just laying around here that I could make you an extremely good deal on if you don't mind using Ubuntu Linux. I don't offer any warranty or technical support though, as I am just barely Linux literate.

184 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:11:22pm

re: #174 wlewisiii

CATO:

reboot holding down the mouse button. That will eject the DVD.

Then reboot with your Snow Leo disk. Hopefully Disk Utility will save you but don't bet on it. You've got a disk going south for the winter there from the sound of it.

If it reboots successfully, then buy an external drive tomorrow and copy everything onto it. Then buy another new drive for inside your iMac. My name is blue if you want more advice by email.

Quoted to make sure Cato sees this. Its exactly what he needs to do.

185 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:11:25pm

re: #162 Cato the Elder

OK, Mac-savvy Lizardim, I am in big trouble here, and need advice.

My old 2006 iMac seems to have just up and died.

First it went fritzy in the middle of the last thread. Had to do a hard reboot.

When it came back up, things were still majorly fritzy, e.g. my left-handed mouse would only work as if it were right-handed, and I couldn't really access any programs.

Second reboot: same thing, only worse.

Now, after rebooting several times, all I get after the startup "Apple" tone is a blank screen with a folder icon in the middle, and in the middle of that, a question mark.

Normally I would insert the startup disk (Snow Leopard) and try to boot from that, but there is already a DVD in there, and Apple seems to provide no way to tease it out of there with a pinhole and a paper clip.

So I'm stuck.

I'm currently accessing LGF from my equally old iBook G4 and a piggybacked WiFi account from the neighbors.

Does all this mean my hard disk is dead? Is there anything I can do tonight in advance of trucking the iMac over to the repair shop tomorrow morning?

I'm at a loss and feeling kinda desperate. There are translations jobs on the iMac that I haven't backed up or billed for yet.

And advice or solace will be greatly appreciated. Buying a new desktop Mac is as far beyond my reach right now as an Astin-Martin 007 model bulletproof sportscar.

Press and hold the mouse button during startup. This should kick out anything in the drive.

186 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:11:39pm

re: #177 SanFranciscoZionist

Cato, I have no advice at all, but I am holding your computer in my heart.

Was thinking about this song earlier...

I want this played at my funeral.

Y'all can come. Year 2110. Don't know the date tho...

187 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:11:43pm

re: #179 Fozzie Bear

Pff, not pay the apple tax? Are you crazy?!

188 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:11:45pm

re: #162 Cato the Elder

Congratulations. As an Apple user, you are now experiencing the rough equivalent of having to buy a new house because your wayward puppy peed on a relatively obscure portion of the carpet.

Sure, you could replace the carpet, but for only about $20 more, you could buy a brand new, puppy pee-free house.

Hotcha.

189 Mich-again  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:11:56pm

Cato, see if it works better after cooling off. The problem could just be a layer of dust on the HD making it overheat and act up.

190 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:12:02pm

re: #171 Dark_Falcon

I think such programs could do well here and could be enhanced with two additional elements...

I'd add:

3. Build Muslim community centers that include mosques but also advocate a more open, Western-style practice of Islam with lots of interfaith educational and cultural programs.

By the way, just how many "women trying to leave abuse/Islam" problems do we have in NYC? Is it enough to justify such an ad budget anyway?

And I'd agree with SFZ that it is confusing to mix together "leaving your husband" with "leaving Islam" as if they're necessarily the same thing.

191 austin_blue  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:12:08pm

re: #162 Cato the Elder

OK, Mac-savvy Lizardim, I am in big trouble here, and need advice.

My old 2006 iMac seems to have just up and died.

First it went fritzy in the middle of the last thread. Had to do a hard reboot.

When it came back up, things were still majorly fritzy, e.g. my left-handed mouse would only work as if it were right-handed, and I couldn't really access any programs.

Second reboot: same thing, only worse.

Now, after rebooting several times, all I get after the startup "Apple" tone is a blank screen with a folder icon in the middle, and in the middle of that, a question mark.

Normally I would insert the startup disk (Snow Leopard) and try to boot from that, but there is already a DVD in there, and Apple seems to provide no way to tease it out of there with a pinhole and a paper clip.

So I'm stuck.

I'm currently accessing LGF from my equally old iBook G4 and a piggybacked WiFi account from the neighbors.

Does all this mean my hard disk is dead? Is there anything I can do tonight in advance of trucking the iMac over to the repair shop tomorrow morning?

I'm at a loss and feeling kinda desperate. There are translations jobs on the iMac that I haven't backed up or billed for yet.

And advice or solace will be greatly appreciated. Buying a new desktop Mac is as far beyond my reach right now as an Astin-Martin 007 model bulletproof sportscar.

Take the box in and have the hard drive replaced. Tell them to put a hair dryer on the old drive (no shit) to recover as much as they can. Then reinstall what they have recovered and reboot the box and see if you have a working machine.

192 CuriousLurker  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:12:44pm

re: #182 SanFranciscoZionist

I imagine that, as with Christians, the issue is not whether the religion requires it, but whether it's used to bolster up social custom.

Exactly. I've spoken to Muslim women who've stayed in horribly abusive marriages because of that.

193 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:12:53pm

re: #188 negativ

Or he could have the failed part replaced. Macs use standard parts for hard drives, memory, etc now. But you can keep your mid 90s jokes and scare the guy.

194 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:13:15pm

re: #174 wlewisiii

CATO:

reboot holding down the mouse button. That will eject the DVD.

Then reboot with your Snow Leo disk. Hopefully Disk Utility will save you but don't bet on it. You've got a disk going south for the winter there from the sound of it.

If it reboots successfully, then buy an external drive tomorrow and copy everything onto it. Then buy another new drive for inside your iMac. My name is blue if you want more advice by email.

Which mouse button, left or right? I'm set up for a left-handed mouse, i.e. main button on the right, but I assume if things have gone south it all defaults to the standard left-click being the main button. Right? I mean, left?

And they say politics is cornfusing.

195 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:14:09pm

BTW, I have a laughably insignificant amount of money that says Cato's problem resides with CPU/Motherboard/RAM. It doesn't smell like a hard drive failure.

196 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:14:10pm

re: #194 Cato the Elder

Which mouse button, left or right? I'm set up for a left-handed mouse, i.e. main button on the right, but I assume if things have gone south it all defaults to the standard left-click being the main button. Right? I mean, left?

And they say politics is cornfusing.

I would say yes, go back to standard. If that doesn't work, try the other? Can't hurt the thing at this point.

197 Irenicum  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:14:11pm

re: #170 lostlakehiker

Overly easy mortgages did play a small part, but the financial crisis was much more fueled by easy credit across the board and deregulation of the financial industry over the last thirty years and the gutting of any regulatory agencies that were left. We foolishly believed that the gods of Wall Street could do no wrong. And as with any idolatry, those gods failed us as they always do.

198 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:14:24pm

re: #193 McSpiff

Or he could have the failed part replaced. Macs use standard parts for hard drives, memory, etc now. But you can keep your mid 90s jokes and scare the guy.

They're still a pain in the ass to get repaired, though. I can have the hard drive out of my PC, reloaded and ready to go for about the cost of a 500 gig HD (less than $100) and about an hour of time.

199 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:14:50pm

re: #194 Cato the Elder

At this point in the boot, left mouse.

Hold both if you wish - it won't hurt it

200 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:15:20pm

re: #198 PT Barnum

Let me just say, 'fuck apple'

Thank you.


Gouging bastards.

201 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:15:32pm

re: #198 PT Barnum

They're still a pain in the ass to get repaired, though. I can have the hard drive out of my PC, reloaded and ready to go for about the cost of a 500 gig HD (less than $100) and about an hour of time.

Did the same thing with my modern macbook. Its literally the easiest laptop ive worked on.

202 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:15:49pm

re: #181 CuriousLurker

DF, can you please tell me where you got the idea that Islam that requires a woman to stay in an abusive marriage or suffer damnation?

I didn't say Islam require it. I said that these women get told it requires them to stay. I think the Islamists whom put out that line of BS are wrong, but I also think that Islamic religious scholars have to make the case that the Radicals are wrong. They may already be doing this, and if so all that needs to be done is to highlight those opinions and writings.

203 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:17:34pm

re: #202 Dark_Falcon

I didn't say Islam require it. I said that these women get told it requires them to stay. I think the Islamists whom put out that line of BS are wrong, but I also think that Islamic religious scholars have to make the case that the Radicals are wrong. They may already be doing this, and if so all that needs to be done is to highlight those opinions and writings.

I was reading a book--by Reza Aslan, so it fits with the thread--in which he mentions that in Mohammed's day, in the Arabian peninsula, if a lady wanted to divorce her husband, she let him know by turning her tent around so he couldn't find the flap where it usually was.

204 Irenicum  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:17:34pm

Ugh, now that I'm back to working full time I can't keep my eyes open later than 11pm. So with that in mind, g'nite kids. Y'all have good night.

205 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:17:42pm

re: #198 PT Barnum

They're still a pain in the ass to get repaired, though. I can have the hard drive out of my PC, reloaded and ready to go for about the cost of a 500 gig HD (less than $100) and about an hour of time.

Same with my Mac book & my wifes's iMac. Only hard one to fix in this house is my son's Emac as it was hardened (literally!) to stand up to grade school kid abuse!

Macs have their flaws but I'll take any Mac with OS X over any Windows or Linux box. A real Unixen (or VMS :) is even better.

206 Digital Display  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:18:10pm

OK Lizards.. I own 1,25 TB's of space on USB drives..There is no excuse to not be backed up...For 200 bucks....In the old days you couldn't buy 4 mb's of memory for 200 bucks...There is no excuse for cheap backups today....
In fact I have my last 3 laptops backed up to one 250 GB drive...

207 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:18:13pm

re: #201 McSpiff

Did the same thing with my modern macbook. Its literally the easiest laptop ive worked on.

It's like that with most modern laptops of any make...2 screws and a cover, my hard drive caddy's out of the case.

208 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:18:44pm

re: #203 SanFranciscoZionist

I was reading a book--by Reza Aslan, so it fits with the thread--in which he mentions that in Mohammed's day, in the Arabian peninsula, if a lady wanted to divorce her husband, she let him know by turning her tent around so he couldn't find the flap where it usually was.

Sneaky...

209 austin_blue  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:18:47pm

re: #202 Dark_Falcon

I didn't say Islam require it. I said that these women get told it requires them to stay. I think the Islamists whom put out that line of BS are wrong, but I also think that Islamic religious scholars have to make the case that the Radicals are wrong. They may already be doing this, and if so all that needs to be done is to highlight those opinions and writings.

Stay in abusive marriages?

So do Christians. It's called Covenant Marriage.

210 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:19:07pm

re: #200 windsagio

Did you just sign that letter "Gouging Bastards"?

Or were you calling those Apple Gouging Bastards "Gouging Bastards"?

211 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:19:35pm

re: #209 austin_blue

You wouldn't believe the garbage that my (Christian) aunt put up with because her church didn't believe in divorce.

Finally, even she had had enough.

212 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:19:59pm

re: #210 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Lol the latter.

The last place I worked got infected by an apple fanatic who was unfortunately a fairly attractive woman.

213 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:20:27pm

re: #212 windsagio

Well. Then.

That's okay.

214 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:20:33pm

Good evening LGF.

215 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:20:33pm

re: #211 EmmmieG

I should point out that this was just one church.

216 CuriousLurker  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:20:44pm

re: #202 Dark_Falcon

I didn't say Islam require it. I said that these women get told it requires them to stay. I think the Islamists whom put out that line of BS are wrong, but I also think that Islamic religious scholars have to make the case that the Radicals are wrong. They may already be doing this, and if so all that needs to be done is to highlight those opinions and writings.

Actually you said that "many Muslim women have been threaten with damnation", but you didn't say by whom, so thanks for clarifying that as I think most people (myself included, obviously) might assume you meant that Islam requires it.

217 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:20:54pm

re: #214 Spare O'Lake

Hello Spare :D Hows Canada doing today? >>

218 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:20:55pm

re: #207 talon_262

It's like that with most modern laptops of any make...2 screws and a cover, my hard drive caddy's out of the case.

I was actually talking about the desktops...most laptops are pretty much user servicable as long as you're talking memory or hard drive and in some cases wireless network card.

The Mac desktops (at least the all in one units) are icky.

219 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:21:16pm

re: #214 Spare O'Lake

What's up, Extra Lough?

220 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:21:37pm

re: #209 austin_blue

Stay in abusive marriages?

So do Christians. It's called Covenant Marriage.

It's called American Life.

So many stay vs. leave.

221 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:21:47pm

re: #215 EmmmieG

Avatar ding.

Really. I mean it.

222 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:21:53pm

re: #193 McSpiff

Or he could have the failed part replaced. Macs use standard parts for hard drives, memory, etc now. But you can keep your mid 90s jokes and scare the guy.

OR I could just wait until tomorrow morning and go to my place of employment where we provide Apple-authorized warranty and non-warranty repairs of everything from iPhones to Mac Pro workstations.

223 Racer X  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:22:14pm

I just ordered a new MacBook Pro.

I love Macs.

224 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:22:19pm

Anybody hear from Shadow lately? He was having a really rough time of it the other night.

225 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:22:43pm

re: #206 HoosierHoops

OK Lizards.. I own 1,25 TB's of space on USB drives..There is no excuse to not be backed up...For 200 bucks...In the old days you couldn't buy 4 mb's of memory for 200 bucks...There is no excuse for cheap backups today...
In fact I have my last 3 laptops backed up to one 250 GB drive...

Exactly...while solid state drives are still expensive, standard hard drives are dirt cheap at pennies per GB for 1 terabyte and larger drives, internal or external.

Myself, I have a 2 TB external eSATA/USB drive backing up a 1 TB data drive in my main desktop and a 2 TB RAID array on my media box. As for a backup program, Acronis True Image Home is worth the money.

226 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:23:03pm

re: #223 Racer X

I just ordered a new MacBook Pro.

I love Paying a 150% surcharge on my computers

FixT!

227 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:23:09pm

re: #206 HoosierHoops

OK Lizards.. I own 1,25 TB's of space on USB drives..There is no excuse to not be backed up...For 200 bucks...In the old days you couldn't buy 4 mb's of memory for 200 bucks...There is no excuse for cheap backups today...
In fact I have my last 3 laptops backed up to one 250 GB drive...

For those that don't want to use additional hardware, I highly recommend dropbox. 2 gigs free. Automatically backed up to their cloud, available from anywhere, makes it easy to share files, etc. Great service.

For anyone interested:

[Link: dropbox.com...]

or if you want to be nice and give me free space my referral link is:
[Link: www.dropbox.com...]

I'm not affiliated or a paying customer, I just use their free service and its saved my ass a few times.

228 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:23:17pm

re: #215 EmmmieG

I should point out that this was just one church.

Sadly, that's all it takes.

The situation in Ireland was absolute crap for a very long time, and is only gradually getting better.

229 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:24:21pm

re: #216 CuriousLurker

Actually you said that "many Muslim women have been threaten with damnation", but you didn't say by whom, so thanks for clarifying that as I think most people (myself included, obviously) might assume you meant that Islam requires it.

Not a problem.

230 Racer X  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:24:41pm

15 Things Every PC User Should Know

I have a PC and several Macs. Macs taste better.

231 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:24:50pm

re: #217 windsagio

Hello Spare :D Hows Canada doing today? >>

Well, the Jays beat the Yankees this evening at the Skydome, so that's not too shabby. Especially 'cause Jeter popped up to end the game.

232 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:25:06pm

re: #228 SanFranciscoZionist

Like someone said the other day, the subjugation of women has a long and honored history in our culture and religion. We're just closer to saying its wrong than people in some parts of the world... and that's the effect of long effort and learning.

233 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:25:28pm

re: #231 Spare O'Lake

Well, the Jays beat the Yankees this evening at the Skydome, so that's not too shabby. Especially 'cause Jeter popped up to end the game.

I'll always upding the Yankees losing.

234 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:25:36pm

re: #225 talon_262

Exactly...while solid state drives are still expensive, standard hard drives are dirt cheap at pennies per GB for 1 terabyte and larger drives, internal or external.

Myself, I have a 2 TB external eSATA/USB drive backing up a 1 TB data drive in my main desktop and a 2 TB RAID array on my media box. As for a backup program, Acronis True Image Home is worth the money.

My first hard drive - heh, I can remember in my XT - I had a full height MFM 10 MB hard drive in it. Talk about the cat's meow! I ran Minix on it and even had room for the sources. You haven't lived till you've done real multitasking on a 8088 :eek:

235 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:27:17pm

Cato: Don't read this. I don't want to rub salt in the wound.

So Satan challenged Jesus to a programming contest. It was to last six hours, with God as the judge. They were both typing, and typing, and it got really intense. The onlookers could see that it was neck and neck.

And then, with one minute left to go, there was a momentary out. The lights flickered, the computers blinked, and the screens went blank.

Satan wailed and gnashed his teeth. He started to demand a re-do when Jesus calmly took his floppy disk (yes, this joke is that old) to the front and turned it in. While Satan looked on, stunned, God proclaimed Christ the winner.

"But...but...how?"

"Jesus saves."

236 austin_blue  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:27:28pm

re: #220 Stanley Sea

It's called American Life.

So many stay vs. leave.

I'll disagree. It is the southern states that have put covenant marriage as an option on the rolls of State law. It's a Shiite Baptist push.

237 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:27:38pm

re: #212 windsagio

Lol the latter.

The last place I worked got infected by an apple fanatic who was unfortunately a fairly attractive woman.

Time and again I've seen advertising agency creative departments continue working while the account management, media buying, and accounting teams get sent home due to some malware infestation. Can't host the bread and butter on a rickety platform, and that costs money upfront.

238 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:27:55pm

re: #234 wlewisiii

My first hard drive - heh, I can remember in my XT - I had a full height MFM 10 MB hard drive in it. Talk about the cat's meow! I ran Minix on it and even had room for the sources. You haven't lived till you've done real multitasking on a 8088 :eek:

The hard drive in the very first desktop I ever bought (a Compaq Presario, circa 1998-99) had a 8 GB Quantum Fireball...as of a couple years ago, it was still working.

239 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:28:58pm

re: #237 goddamnedfrank

I'll grant them that they've gotten a huge amount of advantage out of being a non-player in the business world for so long.

Nobody wants to bother making malware for a mac, not enough return on your investment ;)

240 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:29:15pm

re: #236 austin_blue

I'll disagree. It is the southern states that have put covenant marriage as an option on the rolls of State law. It's a Shiite Baptist push.

I have a feeling that I am about to learn something I didn't want to know about, but what exactly IS covenant marriage?

241 CuriousLurker  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:29:22pm

re: #220 Stanley Sea

It's called American Life.

So many stay vs. leave.

Ugh. I knew an American woman who converted to Islam and was married to a Pakistani. One day he went into a rage and broke her collar bone by bashing her with a telephone, then tried to use a verse form the Qur'an to justify it. The wife, being new to Islam and not knowing any better, accepted what he told her.

I was beyond furious and made sure that the imam addressed the issue during the next Friday sermon & prayers at the mosque and had a serious talk with the husband. I don't know if she stayed married to him as I moved to the East Coast shortly thereafter.

242 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:29:24pm

re: #237 goddamnedfrank

Also, they're still greatly inferior dollar-for-dollar. And don't even get me started on the iPad.

243 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:29:30pm

Welcome home (27 HQ Photos)
Namaste, y'all

244 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:30:08pm

re: #240 SanFranciscoZionist

easy/short version. Its harder to get a divorce.

245 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:30:17pm

re: #240 SanFranciscoZionist

I have a feeling that I am about to learn something I didn't want to know about, but what exactly IS covenant marriage?

Covenant marriage

246 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:30:28pm

Wiki: yes its regressive and ugly.

247 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:30:51pm

re: #232 windsagio

Like someone said the other day, the subjugation of women has a long and honored history in our culture and religion. We're just closer to saying its wrong than people in some parts of the world... and that's the effect of long effort and learning.

I HATE the idea of the subjugation of women. How are they supposed to feel confident enough to make me a decent sandwich they can be proud of, and to give me a proper foot-rub if they're sitting around moping about their terrible plight?

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

/

248 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:30:51pm

re: #245 talon_262

re: #246 windsagio

Youtube Video
249 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:31:07pm

re: #203 SanFranciscoZionist

So...women should all receive saws and woodworking tools at their bridal showers, just in case?

(Honey, where's the door?)

250 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:31:15pm

re: #247 negativ

ps: how'd you get it to not crop your line breaks?

251 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:31:22pm

Woah, just realized dropbox will tell me the name you used to sign up. I won't/can't use that for anything (and I don't see your email address), just wanted to give that heads up. Thanks LGFer who signed up!

252 Jdorfma4  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:31:31pm

Good Gosh, did anyone see Stewart tonight? That opening segment on Fox news ought to be required viewing for everyone who watches Fox News.

On a related note I took off of work today (much needed mental health day) and went to Firehouse Subs for a yummy lunch. There were two tv's on, one on CNN and one on Fox News. I wondered if it was a grand social experiment by the guys behind the counter to count how many people face each TV at lunch. This is Houston so as you can imagine most were face Fox, even if they weren't really watching. My entire lunch was spent watching talking bimbos and himbos blast Obama on the economy. I understand how people who watch Fox for their news can believe Obama is the most evil thing in the world, its that relentless.

253 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:32:31pm

re: #219 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What's up, Extra Lough?

Time

254 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:33:11pm

Anybody else seen this photo of Pamela Geller? The necklace says "Love" but the face says something else.

Image: md_horiz.jpg

255 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:33:40pm

re: #245 talon_262

Covenant marriage

Good God.

256 austin_blue  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:33:45pm

re: #240 SanFranciscoZionist

I have a feeling that I am about to learn something I didn't want to know about, but what exactly IS covenant marriage?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

257 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:34:05pm

re: #254 Kreuzueber Halbmond

Anybody else seen this photo of Pamela Geller? The necklace says "Love" but the face says something else.

Image: md_horiz.jpg

What else should we expect from the Shrieking Harpy?

258 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:34:21pm

Cato:

Make sure to open up your computer and blow out the dust, and make sure any fans are running properly.

Sometimes it's just heat buildup.

259 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:34:53pm

re: #255 SanFranciscoZionist

Shoudln't have reread that whole thing, now I'm all pissed off.

260 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:37:04pm

re: #255 SanFranciscoZionist

Good God.

Yes, and that is why God has nothing to do with that ... idea...

261 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:37:05pm

re: #252 Jdorfma4

Good Gosh, did anyone see Stewart tonight?

Left coaster here, still got 2 1/2 hours to wait, but looking forward to it.

262 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:37:24pm

re: #259 windsagio

PS: Oh Arizona, what's wrong with you?

263 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:37:25pm

Cato, get that CD out of there by hook or by crook, and then try a cold reboot.

264 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:37:40pm

re: #261 elbruce

where ya at (in general)?

265 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:37:49pm

re: #260 wlewisiii

Yes, and that is why God has nothing to do with that ... idea...

I agree... god certainly has nothing to do with it.

266 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:38:28pm

re: #264 windsagio

where ya at (in general)?

Stumptown Portland, OR.

267 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:39:14pm

re: #266 elbruce

HOT!

There are a ton of us in this town ;)

268 Spikester  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:39:56pm

re: #249 EmmmieG

*mister EmmmieG from the other room*

"right hear sweet heart, and here's the plane. don't take too much off"

269 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:39:59pm

re: #253 Spare O'Lake

Time

Susannah Hoffs actually bests Simon & Garfunkle. Blasphemy yes.

Youtube Video
270 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:41:11pm

re: #269 Stanley Sea

Oh she totally does. That version kills the S&G version :D

271 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:41:14pm

One last time on this report, for those LOST fans that may have missed it...

re: #478 Walter L. Newton

"LOST" Alert... "LOST" Alert... "LOST" Alert... "LOST" Alert

The producers had promised a "LOST" extra episode on the upcoming season 6 DVD set. Well, you know the internet, some how someone got a copy and it's gone viral... I'm finding links to certain sites, and then the video is gone... and then a new link... so, this link is still good, but I don't know how long it will be available...

It's 12 minutes long, mostly dedicated to the myth and mysteries, and not so much on character development (we had all of that we wanted in the series finale), there are some questions answered, typical of LOST, more questions are proposed... and I know the producers promised "no sequel," but then again, Disney owns the show, and Disney never said no sequel.

This 12 minute episode doesn't scream sequel. It's screams like the opening 12 minutes of "LOST... the Next Generation."

[Link: www.baberick.com...]

272 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:41:14pm

re: #269 Stanley Sea

Susannah Hoffs actually bests Simon & Garfunkle. Blasphemy yes.


[Video]

Yep. I'd argue that was their best work.

273 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:41:27pm

re: #267 windsagio

HOT!

There are a ton of us in this town ;)

We should give him a test to see if he's telling the truth.

Question 1: What does OMSI stand for? No googling.

274 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:41:28pm

PS: I totally want covenant gay marriage. That's the next step!

275 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:41:52pm

To all who kindly responded:

For now I'm going to take the kindly advice of whoever said to shut the thing off and let it cool down.

I tried the hold-the-mouse-button routine to get the DVD to pop out. No dice. And now I'm not even getting the ominous screen with the question-mark-inside-the-folder thingy. Just a gray limbo screen of eternal non-damnation and non-salvation. That's a Catholic joke there.

At least I have the iBook for temporary connection to the world. And there is an independent Mac contractor within five blocks of here to whom I can take the iMac tomorrow and see what can be done.

Funny. I was just at a local coffee house today where a guy had a 2006 iBook just like mine. I said "gee I hope my iBook/iMac makes it through to the point where I can upgrade". Famous last words.

Fact is, I am now softwarely and hardwarely and mentally and spiritually totally committed to the Apple platform. I'd rather go to smoke signals than revert to a PC. If I told you how geeked out I once was on the Windows platform - fearlessly editing registry entities at the drop of a hat - and what a relief it was when I finally went Applicious in 2006 - you would understand.

If I have to sell my 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica Handy Volume Edition, which I prize very highly, to get set up with another Mac, I'll damn well do so.

And all praises to the students next door who have a password-unprotected WiFi account named simply "Floor2", so I can at least talk to you guys in the interim. I'm now officially a piggybacker.

276 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:42:07pm

re: #273 EmmmieG

Oops, I almost answered that >>

277 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:43:29pm

More leftie lizards should move up here, we can form a Commune!

278 webevintage  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:43:57pm

re: #252 Jdorfma4

Good Gosh, did anyone see Stewart tonight? That opening segment on Fox news ought to be required viewing for everyone who watches Fox News.

So are you Team Evil or Team Stupid.
It was brilliant...

279 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:44:08pm

re: #250 windsagio

ps: how'd you get it to not crop your line breaks?

You must go to the DägôßÄ System. There, you will learn from bah system. There you will learn from Master ¥ôDΩ, the ASCII master who taught me.

280 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:44:36pm

re: #279 negativ

Could have just said 'ascii' jerk :p

281 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:45:09pm

re: #277 windsagio

More leftie lizards should move up here, we can form a Commune!

I already live in your head... what more do you want?

282 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:45:09pm

Oh Susannah

And it fits with the Covenant marriage bullcrap.

283 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:45:17pm

re: #274 windsagio

PS: I totally want covenant gay marriage. That's the next step!

AND THEN... covenant polyfidelity. Oh yeah. We're out to corrupt marriage and the family. One equal right at a time!

284 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:46:01pm

re: #279 negativ

asdfjkl;
pimmffgmfd

285 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:46:19pm

Well the only thing needed next is covenant marriage between man, box turtle, and dog.

286 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:46:37pm

re: #223 Racer X

I just ordered a new MacBook Pro.

I love Macs.

I love Macs too.
Daughter got the MacBook Pro; I got her old MacBook, and I have a desk Mac.
Love it love it love it love it.

287 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:46:39pm

re: #265 Walter L. Newton

I agree... god certainly has nothing to do with it.

Wlewisiii down dinged my humor. Snarky little asshole.

288 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:46:39pm

re: #269 Stanley Sea

Susannah Hoffs actually bests Simon & Garfunkle. Blasphemy yes.

[Video]

To each his own, son, but that is seditious.

289 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:46:54pm

re: #281 Walter L. Newton

Shared expenses!

290 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:47:07pm

re: #277 windsagio

More leftie lizards should move up here, we can form a Commune!

Trust me, communes don't work. One person forgets to cook or clean the toilet and the whole thing falls apart.

291 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:47:41pm

re: #283 eclectic infidel

Gotta ruin everything they love... Like increased ability to abuse your spouse.

292 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:47:58pm

re: #286 reine.de.tout

You know you can cram Mac OS onto any intel-based computer now. It takes some nerd-fu, but it is totally doable.

293 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:47:59pm

re: #290 Kreuzueber Halbmond

Trust me, communes don't work. One person forgets to cook or clean the toilet and the whole thing falls apart.

Sounds like my job.

294 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:48:28pm

re: #286 reine.de.tout

I just hate how they overcharge.

Hate hate hate hate hate.

295 webevintage  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:48:50pm

re: #252 Jdorfma4

Good Gosh, did anyone see Stewart tonight? That opening segment on Fox news ought to be required viewing for everyone who watches Fox News.

And man, the interview with Blagojevich was something...

296 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:50:25pm

re: #292 Fozzie Bear

You know you can cram Mac OS onto any intel-based computer now. It takes some nerd-fu, but it is totally doable.

Why would you want to do that? So you can have a intel-based computer that has only a handful of software products that run on it?

297 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:50:50pm

re: #296 Walter L. Newton

Why would you want to do that? So you can have a intel-based computer that has only a handful of software products that run on it?

OK THAT was damn funny!

298 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:50:52pm

re: #292 Fozzie Bear

You know you can cram Mac OS onto any intel-based computer now. It takes some nerd-fu, but it is totally doable.

Really?
I had a Dell laptop I gave to a friend of mine.
Maybe I should have kept it.

299 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:51:01pm

re: #287 Walter L. Newton

Wlewisiii down dinged my humor. Snarky little asshole.

Try a / once in awhile. Or add more cowbell.

As it is I can't tell when you're serious or not. Hell, for all I know this post is "sarcasim" on the way to "yawn"

Sorry, dude, not all of us care to play your game.

300 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:51:10pm

re: #295 webevintage

And man, the interview with Blagojevich was something...

Did he give it to Blago with the bark on?

301 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:51:30pm

re: #269 Stanley Sea

Susannah Hoffs actually bests Simon & Garfunkle. Blasphemy yes.


[Video]

I'll see your Bangles and raise you the Cleverlys' cover of "Walk Like an Egyptian"

Youtube Video
302 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:52:26pm

re: #299 wlewisiii

Try a / once in awhile. Or add more cowbell.

As it is I can't tell when you're serious or not. Hell, for all I know this post is "sarcasim" on the way to "yawn"

Sorry, dude, not all of us care to play your game.

And some of us are not capable of playing. I'll have to spell things out for the slow ones more often. I'm sorry.

303 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:53:06pm

re: #174 wlewisiii

CATO:

reboot holding down the mouse button. That will eject the DVD.

Then reboot with your Snow Leo disk. Hopefully Disk Utility will save you but don't bet on it. You've got a disk going south for the winter there from the sound of it.

If it reboots successfully, then buy an external drive tomorrow and copy everything onto it. Then buy another new drive for inside your iMac. My name is blue if you want more advice by email.

Getting an external drive is a good idea anyway. So Cato can use Time Machine. I've had Time Machine running since last December and it's kept everything backed up. Great peace of mind and once a major lifesaver.

304 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:53:38pm

re: #294 windsagio

I just hate how they overcharge.

Hate hate hate hate hate.

Yeah, but:
My computer is faster.
It never gets hung up.
It's easier to use.

I don't really have anything on here I MUST keep (my photos are at shutterfly.com, and documents I want to keep documents are at google docs), but I do backup with something called "carbonite", which supposedly backs up fairly continuously.

305 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:54:05pm

Cool... it's only 9:51 pm and it's already 52 degrees (f) outside... should be in the middle 40's by just before dawn. I love Colorado, when it's time for seasonal change, it comes like a hammer.

306 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:55:18pm

re: #305 Walter L. Newton

Cool... it's only 9:51 pm and it's already 52 degrees (f) outside... should be in the middle 40's by just before dawn. I love Colorado, when it's time for seasonal change, it comes like a hammer.

11 p.m. here, 80 degrees, and 94% humidity (no lie).

307 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:55:20pm

re: #296 Walter L. Newton

Why would you want to do that? So you can have a intel-based computer that has only a handful of software products that run on it?

Well, I say this because I think alot of prople who think they prefer Macs really just prefer the way MacOS works, as opposed to actual Apple computers. Making a hackintosh is one way of achieving that goal without spending as much money.

308 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:56:52pm

re: #304 reine.de.tout

I just want to note again, that Macs are nearly identical to PC's in terms of architecture. The thing you like about macs, I suspect, is the OS. As far as hardware goes, they really aren't any different from PCs.

309 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:56:53pm

re: #307 Fozzie Bear

Well, I say this because I think alot of prople who think they prefer Macs really just prefer the way MacOS works, as opposed to actual Apple computers. Making a hackintosh is one way of achieving that goal without spending as much money.

I get it... sort of like turning my 1998 Chevy Prism into a 1968 Rambler without spending a lot of money.

310 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:57:00pm

re: #306 reine.de.tout

11 p.m. here, 80 degrees, and 94% humidity (no lie).

Weather says with the humidity, it "feels like" 85 outside (11 p.m.)
We're still 2 months away from anything even approaching cool.
Damn.

311 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:57:15pm

re: #304 reine.de.tout

To be honest, I think it bothers me philosophically :P

Its messed up that a company has gotten success out of overcharging and being bailed out by their competition. Almost... Unamerican.

312 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:57:35pm

re: #308 Fozzie Bear

Except again, they cost more for the same hardware.

Way more.

313 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:57:55pm

re: #308 Fozzie Bear

I just want to note again, that Macs are nearly identical to PC's in terms of architecture. The thing you like about macs, I suspect, is the OS. As far as hardware goes, they really aren't any different from PCs.

You're correct, it's the OS I like. The hardware can be anything, I don't care. I just like the way this thing runs, and as I said, it's easy to use.

314 zxbe  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:58:15pm

I'm still looking for the part of the constitution that says "None of this document applies to Muslims," but I'll be damned if I can find any such passage. Apparently the xenophobes will have to suck it up.

315 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:58:33pm

re: #306 reine.de.tout

11 p.m. here, 80 degrees, and 94% humidity (no lie).

Get out of the oven, silly!

316 sagehen  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:58:37pm

re: #271 Walter L. Newton

One last time on this report, for those LOST fans that may have missed it...

thank you thank you thank you....!!eleventy!

I really enjoyed that.

317 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:58:46pm

OK its that time of night again!

Think you guys can make it without me? >>

318 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:58:57pm

re: #311 windsagio

To be honest, I think it bothers me philosophically :P

Its messed up that a company has gotten success out of overcharging and being bailed out by their competition. Almost... Unamerican.

I understand your POV.
I just - like the machine.

319 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:59:20pm
"NPR: European Islamophobia Finds a Home in the US"


Would it be correct to point out that we know it as Eurofascism or Neo-nazism in Europe, and not Islamophobia?
If so, then why the sugar-coating? Let's call a spade a spade.

320 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:59:21pm

re: #200 windsagio

Let me just say, 'fuck apple'

Thank you.

Gouging bastards.

Never used anything but Macs. Yeah, they cost more. But a Toyota costs more than a Lada.

And It's worth it.

321 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 8:59:26pm

re: #304 reine.de.tout

Yeah, but:
My computer is faster.
It never gets hung up.
It's easier to use.

I don't really have anything on here I MUST keep (my photos are at shutterfly.com, and documents I want to keep documents are at google docs), but I do backup with something called "carbonite", which supposedly backs up fairly continuously.

As far as Mac vs. PC, I'm a PC, but to each their own. I'm rarely on the bleeding edge of anything, but I can (and have) put together a machine (or two) that gets the job done for less coin than a Mac.

As far as Windows being harder to use and being less secure than MacOS, that typically comes from people who've not used Windows 7...believe me, Win7 (and even Vista SP1, patched up) solves a lot of issues from XP and other legacy versions of Windows.

322 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:00:00pm

OT: organic food

Q: why is organic food more expensive than the food packed with pesticides/hormones?

323 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:00:04pm

re: #317 windsagio

OK its that time of night again!

Think you guys can make it without me? >>

Damn sure can :)

324 windsagio  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:00:04pm

re: #318 reine.de.tout

I understand your POV.
I just - like the machine.

FORBIDDEN!

No I kid, if you like it more power to you :)

Just don't like the cultlike behavior you get around them :D

325 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:00:17pm

re: #315 Varek Raith

Get out of the oven, silly!

I wish!
I just keep the A/C turned to 68, and it's comfy.
Everyone else is freezing; but as long as I'm comfy, 's all that matters.

326 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:00:35pm

re: #314 zxbe

I'm still looking for the part of the constitution that says "None of this document applies to Muslims," but I'll be damned if I can find any such passage. Apparently the xenophobes will have to suck it up.

They won't. They'll just say "this is a security issue" or some such thing. Geller is incapable of admitting error.

327 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:00:50pm

re: #325 reine.de.tout

I wish!
I just keep the A/C turned to 68, and it's comfy.
Everyone else is freezing; but as long as I'm comfy, 's all that matters.

Tell 'em to put on sweaters!
I like cold.

328 Jdorfma4  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:00:55pm

re: #278 webevintage

Team A Little From Column A, A Little From Column B...

329 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:01:03pm

re: #321 talon_262

As far as Mac vs. PC, I'm a PC, but to each their own. I'm rarely on the bleeding edge of anything, but I can (and have) put together a machine (or two) that gets the job done for less coin than a Mac.

As far as Windows being harder to use and being less secure than MacOS, that typically comes from people who've not used Windows 7...believe me, Win7 (and even Vista SP1, patched up) solves a lot of issues from XP and other legacy versions of Windows.

I had Vista on my laptop.
I hated hated hated hated hated it.
Hated it.

330 sagehen  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:01:43pm

re: #322 eclectic infidel

OT: organic food

Q: why is organic food more expensive than the food packed with pesticides/hormones?

It's more labor intensive, takes more land for the same yield, etc.

331 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:01:43pm

re: #324 windsagio

FORBIDDEN!

No I kid, if you like it more power to you :)

Just don't like the cultlike behavior you get around them :D

b.b.b.b. - the TRIBE!

332 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:01:50pm

re: #321 talon_262

As far as Mac vs. PC, I'm a PC, but to each their own. I'm rarely on the bleeding edge of anything, but I can (and have) put together a machine (or two) that gets the job done for less coin than a Mac.

As far as Windows being harder to use and being less secure than MacOS, that typically comes from people who've not used Windows 7...believe me, Win7 (and even Vista SP1, patched up) solves a lot of issues from XP and other legacy versions of Windows.

Maybe. But I just can't stomach the naff Web 1.0 GUI they still employ.

333 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:02:15pm

Evening Honcos.

334 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:02:15pm

re: #329 reine.de.tout

I had Vista on my laptop.
I hated hated hated hated hated it.
Hated it.

Seriously, I wanted to take the think and throw it against the wall.
Hated it.

335 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:02:47pm

re: #334 reine.de.tout

Seriously, I wanted to take the think and throw it against the wall.
Hated it.

Vista is crap.

336 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:02:56pm

re: #324 windsagio

FORBIDDEN!

No I kid, if you like it more power to you :)

Just don't like the cultlike behavior you get around them :D

Here's my take on the "Apple culture" (and why I'll never buy a Mac, iPad, or another iPod):

Steve Jobs is a dick...

337 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:02:58pm

re: #329 reine.de.tout

I had Vista on my laptop.
I hated hated hated hated hated it.
Hated it.

Did you know most of the PCs/laptops sold with Vista had insufficient hardware to properly run it?

338 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:03:07pm

It is also worth noting the MacOS is based on a GNU/Linux kernel. The stability that characterizes MacOs is just a result of that, and Apple's control over how software is written and deployed.

A properly set up Linux box is nearly impossible to crash accidentally. And Linux is totally free.

(Just a shameless plug for the software I prefer)

339 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:03:20pm

George Washington on Islam:

The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent national gifts. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.

It would be inconsistent with the frankness of my character not to avow that I am pleased with your favorable opinion of my Administration, and fervent wishes for my felicity. May the children of the Stock of Abraham, who dwell in this land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other Inhabitants; while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and figtree, and there shall be none to make him afraid. May the father of all mercies scatter light and not darkness in our paths, and make us all in our several vocations useful here, and in his own due time and way everlastingly happy.


Just thought I'd throw that in here.

340 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:04:23pm

re: #337 Varek Raith

Did you know most of the PCs/laptops sold with Vista had insufficient hardware to properly run it?

Then why the hell did they sell them like that?
Talk about gouging . . .

341 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:04:36pm

The NatGeo special on Katrina was awesome, if you didn't get to see it.

342 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:05:19pm

re: #341 Cannadian Club Akbar

The NatGeo special on Katrina was awesome, if you didn't get to see it.

Was it good?
I was afraid it would be propaganda-ish, and I just wasn't in the mood to be yelling at the TV.

343 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:05:42pm

re: #322 eclectic infidel

OT: organic food

Q: why is organic food more expensive than the food packed with pesticides/hormones?

I don't use any pesticides in my garden which makes all my veggies 'organic'. It's cheaper, of course. I saw a show on Discovery channel about organic farms and they do use some pesticides. I am still confused why they charge more. If it tasted good I eat it. My grandmother got all her food from the grocery store, non of it was organic, and she lived to the ripe old age of 98.

344 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:05:53pm

re: #337 Varek Raith

Did you know most of the PCs/laptops sold with Vista had insufficient hardware to properly run it?

This is key. Vista is a fine OS, but the feature set that is enabled by default is riduclously heavy and bound to bog down slower computers.

It is possible to tweak vista such that it isn't so unwieldy and annoying, but it is Microsoft's failure that the defaults are so poorly set up.

345 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:05:54pm

re: #341 Cannadian Club Akbar

I can't see it, but want to really badly. Where can I find it?

346 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:06:25pm

re: #342 reine.de.tout

Was it good?
I was afraid it would be propaganda-ish, and I just wasn't in the mood to be yelling at the TV.

Was good and tragic all in the same. I felt bad for peeps and rehated Ray Nagin.

347 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:06:44pm

re: #335 Cannadian Club Akbar

Vista is crap.

My laptop has Vista. I haven't had any problems with it yet.

348 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:06:47pm

re: #344 Fozzie Bear

This is key. Vista is a fine OS, but the feature set that is enabled by default is riduclously heavy and bound to bog down slower computers.

It is possible to tweak vista such that it isn't so unwieldy and annoying, but it is Microsoft's failure that the defaults are so poorly set up.

Oh, yeah.
I had to tweak the hell out of the services to get it to run smoothly.

349 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:06:50pm

re: #346 Cannadian Club Akbar

Was good and tragic all in the same. I felt bad for peeps and rehated Ray Nagin.

It looks like it shows again at 11 my time. I'm gonna go watch it.

350 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:07:11pm

re: #345 ProLifeLiberal

I can't see it, but want to really badly. Where can I find it?

Its premier is on Nat Geo. Sorry.

351 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:07:14pm

re: #314 zxbe

I'm still looking for the part of the constitution that says "None of this document applies to Muslims," but I'll be damned if I can find any such passage. Apparently the xenophobes will have to suck it up.

Thank you. Worth re-quoting.

352 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:07:46pm

re: #349 reine.de.tout

It looks like it shows again at 11 my time. I'm gonna go watch it.

Yes. Do.

353 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:07:51pm

re: #348 Varek Raith

Oh, yeah.
I had to tweak the hell out of the services to get it to run smoothly.

Well - I don't know enough to do any tweaking. And so it was ssslllooowww as molasses. Everything. Drove me nuts.

G'night all!

354 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:07:56pm

re: #339 elbruce

George Washington on Islam:


Just thought I'd throw that in here.

This address by Washington was to the Hebrew Congregation in Newport Rhode Island. Just thought I'd throw that in here.

355 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:07:59pm

re: #350 Cannadian Club Akbar

And I don't get Nat Geo here. Dang it.

356 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:08:37pm

re: #319 Spare O'Lake

Would it be correct to point out that we know it as Eurofascism or Neo-nazism in Europe, and not Islamophobia?
If so, then why the sugar-coating? Let's call a spade a spade.

did you listen?

357 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:08:38pm

Breaking:

Plane with 15 crashes in Nepal

KATHMAHDU - A SMALL plane went missing over Nepal on Tuesday with at least 13 people aboard, including six foreigners, an official said.

The Angi Air plane was en-route to Lukla, gateway to Mount Everest in east Nepal, when it vanished in rough weather, airline official Abhinas Sijapati told Reuters.

The nationality of the foreigners was not immediately known, he said.

Eighteen people, 12 of them Germans, were killed when a small plane crashed two years ago in Lukla.

358 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:08:48pm

re: #338 Fozzie Bear

Actually it's not. Mach 3.0 micro kernel with a huge amount of FreeBSD on top. No GNU/Linux in the kernel at all as Apple wanted no license contamination.

They did a version of Linux earlier and knew better ...

// only a little bit.

359 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:09:08pm

re: #355 ProLifeLiberal

And I don't get Nat Geo here. Dang it.

I don't think they stream things. Or Hulu. This is amazing. (say part earlier)

360 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:09:31pm

re: #334 reine.de.tout

Seriously, I wanted to take the think and throw it against the wall.
Hated it.

Was it right after Vista became available? If so, a lot of people had problems, mostly because a lot of hardware manufacturers and software houses didn't make their stuff Vista-compliant before the launch, if they ever did, especially on older hardware/software (we're talking Win95/98 old, in some cases).

That alone gave MS a bad rap for Vista...there's a lot of things that MS could have done better with it, but a lot of the major issues people had weren't necessarily deserved.

361 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:10:07pm

re: #334 reine.de.tout

Seriously, I wanted to take the think and throw it against the wall.
Hated it.

I pay extra to keep XP.

Haven't tried W7 yet though.

362 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:10:09pm

re: #340 reine.de.tout

Then why the hell did they sell them like that?
Talk about gouging . . .

Read this. The commercial OS development cycle is all about gouging. That's literally all the product is. It's just a way to prevent you from being able to do things unless you pay money. People who look at it like it's a process of providing features for a premium don't understand how easily existing operating systems could and can be extended to include those features at little cost of actual programming work. OS companies literally have no need to exist as commercial entities.

FREE SOFTWARE FOREVER!!!!!

(software hippy mode off now)

363 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:10:33pm

re: #325 reine.de.tout

I wish!
I just keep the A/C turned to 68, and it's comfy.
Everyone else is freezing; but as long as I'm comfy, 's all that matters.

You'll be comfy until you get the utility bill.

364 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:11:00pm

If I ever become mayor of a coastal town, I know how to take care of things.

365 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:11:22pm

re: #362 Fozzie Bear

Oh, god, you're one of them.
/

366 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:11:54pm

re: #339 elbruce

George Washington on Islam:


Just thought I'd throw that in here.

Am I missing something in the link, or was Washington addressing Jews in that response to a letter from a rabbi?

367 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:11:57pm

re: #362 Fozzie Bear

woops, here's the link:

[Link: www.pcworld.com...]

368 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:13:07pm

re: #360 talon_262

Was it right after Vista became available? If so, a lot of people had problems, mostly because a lot of hardware manufacturers and software houses didn't make their stuff Vista-compliant before the launch, if they ever did, especially on older hardware/software (we're talking Win95/98 old, in some cases).

That alone gave MS a bad rap for Vista...there's a lot of things that MS could have done better with it, but a lot of the major issues people had weren't necessarily deserved.

I got Vista on a brand new machine. It sucked so bad that the next two systems I bought, I paid extra to have XP pre-installed instead of Vista.

369 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:13:09pm

re: #366 Spare O'Lake

Am I missing something in the link, or was Washington addressing Jews in that response to a letter from a rabbi?

He was... see my re: #354 Walter L. Newton Elbruce is mistaken... just thought I'd throw that in there.

370 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:13:11pm

re: #361 Stanley Sea

I pay extra to keep XP.

Haven't tried W7 yet though.

I've dealt with it a few times on other PCs at work. Hate it so far. Seems like they "fixed" a whole pile of things that weren't "broke" to begin with.

371 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:13:52pm

re: #367 Fozzie Bear

woops, here's the link:

[Link: www.pcworld.com...]

No surprise.
I have a XP Pro/Windows 7 dual boot set up.
Why?
Because MS frakked up on the audio stack from XP to Vista.
Jerks.

372 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:14:32pm

re: #365 Varek Raith

Oh, god, you're one of them.
/

I really am. I'm pragmatic in the sense that I do keep a partition to run Vista (no reason to buy 7 yet really) for some programs, but I prefer the build-your-own OS aspect of GNU/Linux. It takes a little more work, but when it's all built, you have something that is literally perfectly tailored to the way you work. And it requires knowledge, not money. I like that paradigm.

373 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:14:46pm

re: #362 Fozzie Bear

Read this. The commercial OS development cycle is all about gouging. That's literally all the product is. It's just a way to prevent you from being able to do things unless you pay money. People who look at it like it's a process of providing features for a premium don't understand how easily existing operating systems could and can be extended to include those features at little cost of actual programming work. OS companies literally have no need to exist as commercial entities.

FREE SOFTWARE FOREVER!!!

(software hippy mode off now)

While Linux does well in the server/big iron space, I just don't know if it ever get to a point where it'll become a major threat to MS and Apple on the desktop...I've tried it a few times over the years and stayed with Windows, mainly because of gaming and the programs I want to use.

374 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:15:01pm

re: #356 Stanley Sea

did you listen?

You betcha!
Not only did I listen, but I have backed Charles every step of the way.

375 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:15:02pm

re: #370 publicityStunted

I've dealt with it a few times on other PCs at work. Hate it so far. Seems like they "fixed" a whole pile of things that weren't "broke" to begin with.

Well, SuperFetch isn't as stoopid on Windows 7 as it is on Vista.
But, yeah.
I had to tweak this one too.

376 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:15:21pm

re: #367 Fozzie Bear

woops, here's the link:

[Link: www.pcworld.com...]

Just wow. Teh Suck.

377 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:17:50pm

This NatGeo special is amazing for those who have never been through a hurricane.

378 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:18:39pm

re: #376 Alouette

Just wow. Teh Suck.

Heh, I'm devastated by this news...

Microsoft has been trying in other ways to get people to upgrade from XP. It has announced that Internet Explorer 9 won't run on XP, and neither will the new version of Windows Live Essentials.


Wait, no I'm not.
;)

379 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:18:49pm

re: #373 talon_262

For gaming I use Wine in most cases, and just boot to Windows for the few it doesn't work for.

You would be surprised how fast the various flavors of Linux have progressed, and how good the emulation layers are. (I know, I know, Wine is not an emulator. But it is. But it isn't.)

380 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:19:44pm

re: #330 sagehen

It's more labor intensive, takes more land for the same yield, etc.

Thanks. I figured it was something like that, but wanted to read another answer. I'm getting attitude from a friend to buy all organic, but I'm very reluctant to do so. "Regular" tomatoes cost me anywhere from .59 -.79 cents per pound. Add organic to the sign and it jacks up to over $2.00 per pound.

381 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:20:04pm

re: #367 Fozzie Bear

woops, here's the link:

[Link: www.pcworld.com...]

And there's already a workaround, but I seriously don't see why people don't just upgrade to SP3 at this point anyway.

XP is a deprecated platform at this point anyway...

382 CuriousLurker  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:20:32pm

re: #361 Stanley Sea

I pay extra to keep XP.

Haven't tried W7 yet though.

FWIW, I really like Win7, but there was a bit of a learning curve getting used to it after having been on WinXP for 10 years (I skipped Vista). I'm running 64-bit Win7 Ultimate with 4GB of RAM, and find it much faster and more stable than XP.

383 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:22:00pm

re: #339 elbruce

George Washington on Islam:


Just thought I'd throw that in here.

As far as the Hard Core Haters are concerned, there is simply no parallel there.

384 freetoken  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:22:13pm

This dog seriously likes Family Guy:

Youtube Video
385 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:22:35pm

re: #346 Cannadian Club Akbar

Was good and tragic all in the same. I felt bad for peeps and rehated Ray Nagin.

My GFIL has a small dog named after Nagin.

386 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:23:04pm

Holy shit. And Katrina was only a CAT 3.

387 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:23:24pm

re: #382 CuriousLurker

FWIW, I really like Win7, but there was a bit of a learning curve getting used to it after having been on WinXP for 10 years (I skipped Vista). I'm running 64-bit Win7 Ultimate with 4GB of RAM, and find it much faster and more stable than XP.

I love Win7....it (like Vista before it) may be RAM and disk space hungry, but those are relatively dirt cheap nowadays. I run Win7 Ultimate on my main rig (8 GB RAM) and my Dell Mini 10 (2 GB RAM), while I run Vista Ultimate on my media box (4 GB RAM and over 2 TB hard drive space)...all run their respective OSes very well.

388 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:23:46pm

re: #385 SanFranciscoZionist

My GFIL has a small dog named after Nagin.

Did she name the dog incompetent?

389 abolitionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:24:25pm

re: #366 Spare O'Lake

Am I missing something in the link, or was Washington addressing Jews in that response to a letter from a rabbi?

Yes, I believe so. Excerpt:

Done and Signed by order of the Hebrew Congregation in NewPort, Rhode Island August 17th 1790. Moses Seixas, Warden

President Washington, in reply a few days later, offered one of the most important visions of religious liberty for his new nation, recalling the context of oppression that his fellow children of Abraham’s God had suffered by the intolerant many. Washington promised, with simple clarity, that these new United States would offer a haven for peaceful practitioners of all faiths:
To the Hebrew Congregation in Newport Rhode Island. Gentlemen,
While I receive, with much satisfaction, your Address replete with expressions of affection and esteem; I rejoice in the opportunity of assuring you, that I shall always retain a grateful remembrance of the cordial welcome I experienced in my visit to Newport, from all classes of Citizens.

390 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:24:32pm

re: #362 Fozzie Bear

FREE SOFTWARE FOREVER!!!

So when I got my current box it came with Windows on it. I didn't realize you could buy it with Linux directly, so I planned to download and install Ubuntu first thing out of the box. So I started it up, and all of a sudden had all of these pre-loaded things wanting to update themselves and then popping up messages that they were conflicting with each other and letting me know they were all on free trial periods and I'd have to pay them all money down the road if I wanted to keep things running without having my computer destroyed by all the evil hackers.

I finally managed to beat those back and get Ubuntu downloaded and installed. No problems whatsoever. A bunch of available free software I could install from within the system with none of them demanding money either now or later. Pretty much anything any regular computer user might need was available right there. If I wanted to add, remove or change anything on the computer, that was available too (no registry!) and if I needed to get under the hood and tinker, I have the option to go command-line whenever I want.

It actually took me a while of trying to find firewall software for Linux until I finally discovered that it's built into the architecture itself, so the concept of installing a firewall is meaningless anyways. I've never had a single security problem with this thing, no matter where I go or what I do.

It's not just a technical difference, it's a completely different attitude towards me and my computer.

Windows basically treats me buying a computer as a marketing opportunity for them and their partners. The impression I've gotten whenever I've tried to change or troubleshoot anything is that I needn't trouble my pretty little head over that stuff, they've got it taken care of, and all of the real controls are buried in bizarre registry keys. But of course, I could purchase any number of programs to dig those out for me. I feel like it's treating me like it's not even my computer, I'm just borrowing theirs.

Ubuntu basically says to me "it's your computer, you can do with it what you wish, and if you're interested here are some programs that work on it which we think you might like."

I'm a PC, and Ubuntu Linux is my idea. - I like saying that whenever I hear one of those dumb commercials.

391 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:24:32pm

re: #235 EmmmieG


"Jesus saves."

Jesus may save, but Moses invests.

392 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:24:41pm

re: #385 SanFranciscoZionist

My GFIL has a small dog named after Nagin.

My mom & her BF have a dog that survived Katrina. They went to NO to get him.

393 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:25:21pm

re: #384 freetoken

Youtube Video
394 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:25:42pm

re: #388 Cannadian Club Akbar

Did she name the dog incompetent?

:)

No, its name actually is Nagin. Because it is a chocolate-colored dog--chocolate city...this is the branch of the family with serious racial issues, so I smiled and said I remembered the speech, and the name was funny, and hoped we wouldn't go into waters where I would have to start mmmmming again. We didn't.

I would have petted little Nagin, but she didn't encourage that kind of behavior.

395 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:26:32pm

re: #392 NJDhockeyfan

My mom & her BF have a dog that survived Katrina. They went to NO to get him.

Bless them.

396 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:27:00pm

re: #395 SanFranciscoZionist

Bless them.

:)

397 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:27:07pm

Not sure how many of ya'll have been through a hurricane. They are fun and scary at the same time.

398 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:27:27pm

re: #383 SanFranciscoZionist

As far as the Hard Core Haters are concerned, there is simply no parallel there.

Especially since this address by Washington was to the Hebrew Congregation in Newport Rhode Island. Not in regards to Islam. Just thought I'd throw that in here.

399 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:27:31pm

re: #391 eclectic infidel

Jesus may save, but Moses invests.

Jesus saves and you should too, so come down to the Bible Factory Outlet!

/paraphrasing Tim Cavanagh

400 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:27:31pm

re: #397 Cannadian Club Akbar

And LOUD!

401 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:28:32pm

re: #400 Floral Giraffe

And LOUD!

I've actually walked in them. That's the fun part.:)

402 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:28:41pm

re: #394 SanFranciscoZionist

:)

No, its name actually is Nagin. Because it is a chocolate-colored dog--chocolate city...this is the branch of the family with serious racial issues, so I smiled and said I remembered the speech, and the name was funny, and hoped we wouldn't go into waters where I would have to start mmming again. We didn't.

I would have petted little Nagin, but she didn't encourage that kind of behavior.

Does the dog keep trying to head to a Dallas hotel during rain storms?

/

403 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:28:42pm

re: #366 Spare O'Lake

Am I missing something in the link, or was Washington addressing Jews in that response to a letter from a rabbi?

He was. But everything he said would cover Muslims. And (not to try to put words in a FF's mouth but) I'd bet if you asked him he'd say it applied to them too.

404 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:29:09pm

re: #383 SanFranciscoZionist

As far as the Hard Core Haters are concerned, there is simply no parallel there.

Explain, please...no parallel between what and what?

405 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:29:43pm

re: #397 Cannadian Club Akbar

Not sure how many of ya'll have been through a hurricane. They are fun and scary at the same time.


My whole life in Florida was uneventful. David in the early 80's I guess we lost power. My teenage years were spent being embarrassed that we taped the windows.

Then I moved to California. Andrew, Charlie, etc. friends and family had major scares & damage.

Lucky me?

406 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:30:10pm

re: #397 Cannadian Club Akbar

Not sure how many of ya'll have been through a hurricane. They are fun and scary at the same time.

This is the only one I've been through.
Though, it was a TS when it hit me.

407 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:30:14pm

re: #399 talon_262

Jesus saves and you should too, so come down to the Bible Factory Outlet!

/paraphrasing Tim Cavanagh

Free Palestine! Buy two, and get the third one FREE! Collect the set!

408 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:30:56pm

re: #397 Cannadian Club Akbar

Not sure how many of ya'll have been through a hurricane. They are fun and scary at the same time.

Earthquakes yes, hurricane no.

409 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:31:50pm

Flash floods and mudslides yes, Hurricane no.

410 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:31:51pm

re: #398 Walter L. Newton

Especially since this address by Washington was to the Hebrew Congregation in Newport Rhode Island. Not in regards to Islam. Just thought I'd throw that in here.

I know the quote--assumed everyone got that it was a modified one. Sorry. Yes, Washington was speaking about Jews.

411 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:32:01pm

re: #397 Cannadian Club Akbar

Not sure how many of ya'll have been through a hurricane. They are fun and scary at the same time.

Nope, I've actually never been out of Cascadia in my life*.


* Technically I spent the first 3 months of my life in Northern California, but as a Cascadian Zionist / Southern Expansionist, I claim that land as part of our glorious nation as well.

412 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:32:31pm

re: #408 SanFranciscoZionist

Earthquakes yes, hurricane no.

Hurricanes last a while longer than earthquakes but I would rather experience another big hurricane than a big earthquake.

413 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:32:36pm

re: #402 NJDhockeyfan

Does the dog keep trying to head to a Dallas hotel during rain storms?

/

HOWL. Not that I noticed, but it was one keyed-up little critter.

414 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:32:50pm

re: #397 Cannadian Club Akbar

Not sure how many of ya'll have been through a hurricane. They are fun and scary at the same time.

Not a hurricane, but the Great Nashville Floods of 2010 back in May ate my house...don't want anything like that again.

DO.NOT.WANT.

415 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:33:18pm

re: #406 Varek Raith

I remember Isabel. Look up Elana and you'll find my birthday. I also worked 24 straight hours in a shelter for Elana.

416 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:33:25pm

re: #403 elbruce

He was. But everything he said would cover Muslims. And (not to try to put words in a FF's mouth but) I'd bet if you asked him he'd say it applied to them too.

I would like to think so, but when you sought to appropriate his address to Jews as being "Washington on Islam", you erred.

417 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:34:02pm

Apparently, the Possum situation has led to social change on the Blogmocracy:

Due to recent events and people’s sensitivity to them, we at the Blogmocracy are contemplating a new policy. If we decide on this it will be set in stone. People here got offended at Possum’s comments and they have a right to be offended. I had to deal with many offensive comments towards Hispanics on this blog, yet I held my ground and fought. Since I am against racial insults, period, we will make ethnic insults a banning offense.

This means, Hispanics (Legal or Illegal), Jews, White Southerners, Blacks, Irish, Catholics, Protestants, Persians, Russians, Europeans, British, Ethiopians, Indians and Asians. No group will be given preference from insult and this ban will apply across the board.

418 Racer X  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:34:04pm

re: #397 Cannadian Club Akbar

Not sure how many of ya'll have been through a hurricane. They are fun and scary at the same time.

I was in Hawaii when Iniki hit in 1992. We were pretty scared.

419 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:34:08pm

Actually, almost all of the founding fathers would likely have not known too much about the "Mohammadens" and might likely never have met one.

The world was bigger then, in terms of what it took to get around.

420 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:34:18pm

re: #412 NJDhockeyfan

Hurricanes last a while longer than earthquakes but I would rather experience another big hurricane than a big earthquake.

My feeling about earthquakes? If it's bad, like you die, it will happen quite fast. ie. the building you are in will crush you in seconds.

Whenever we feel it and experience it, I think we are lucky.

421 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:34:33pm

re: #404 Spare O'Lake

Explain, please...no parallel between what and what?

Between Jews and Muslims.

422 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:35:00pm

re: #416 Spare O'Lake

I would like to think so, but when you sought to appropriate his address to Jews as being "Washington on Islam", you erred.

bummer.

423 CuriousLurker  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:35:10pm

re: #387 talon_262

I love Win7...it (like Vista before it) may be RAM and disk space hungry, but those are relatively dirt cheap nowadays. I run Win7 Ultimate on my main rig (8 GB RAM) and my Dell Mini 10 (2 GB RAM), while I run Vista Ultimate on my media box (4 GB RAM and over 2 TB hard drive space)...all run their respective OSes very well.

Heh, you sound like me with all the computers. I'm running Win7 on my main rig too. I've got an older laptop (ThinkPad T42) running XP, and my retired desktop rig is now running Ubuntu and used as a local webdev testing server.

I definitely love how cheap RAM & disk space are these days. I've got multiple internal drives in both of the desktop machines, and dedicated external drives for my main rig & laptop. Oh, and one 2.5" drive that came out of the laptop, but I almost never use it. Ditto for all the flash drives I have lying around—with my home network and Dropbox, I really don't have much need for them anymore.

424 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:35:19pm

re: #412 NJDhockeyfan

Hurricanes last a while longer than earthquakes but I would rather experience another big hurricane than a big earthquake.

The thought of being able to see it coming makes me nervous.

425 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:35:25pm

re: #414 talon_262

Yeah I had a flood cover my entire house except the peak of the roof and the chimney. And this was a 2 story house on stilts a quarter mile horizontally and uphill about 40 vertical feet from where the river normally is. The Delaware river went absolutely apeshit a few years in a row ending about 4 years ago.

Floods are CRAZY.

426 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:35:53pm

re: #416 Spare O'Lake

I would like to think so, but when you sought to appropriate his address to Jews as being "Washington on Islam", you erred.

I believe that was the point of the column linked.

427 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:35:54pm

re: #420 Stanley Sea

My feeling about earthquakes? If it's bad, like you die, it will happen quite fast. ie. the building you are in will crush you in seconds.

Whenever we feel it and experience it, I think we are lucky.

I was in a "quake" about a month ago.
4ish... I think.
My reaction?
The hell was that, a plane?
:)

428 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:36:35pm

re: #425 Fozzie Bear

Yeah I had a flood cover my entire house except the peak of the roof and the chimney. And this was a 2 story house on stilts a quarter mile horizontally and uphill about 40 vertical feet from where the river normally is. The Delaware river went absolutely apeshit a few years in a row ending about 4 years ago.

Floods are CRAZY.

I remember that.

429 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:37:00pm

re: #410 SanFranciscoZionist

I know the quote--assumed everyone got that it was a modified one. Sorry. Yes, Washington was speaking about Jews.

It was disingenuous for anyone to call that "Washington on Islam." But then again, who the fuck cares about truth when one has a point to make.

430 kmg  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:37:13pm

I don't think that right wing Europeans caused the radicalization of some Muslims, just like I don't think Muslim radicals caused Europeans or others to become right wing. Muslim radicals were created by the upbringing they received at home, in school and in the mosque. And it was probably these similar influences that caused right wingers to dislike Muslims (and possibly other people who are "different"). Before 911 not much notice was taken of Muslims and trouble with integrating into a new country isn't just their issue. It also occurs to other immigrant groups. However, the very violent reactions of disgruntled Muslims (in Europe and elsewhere) is something that is unique to them. To pretend otherwise is just dishonest.

431 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:37:39pm

re: #383 SanFranciscoZionist

As far as the Hard Core Haters are concerned, there is simply no parallel there.

Yesterday, they were hard core haters of Jews. Today they're hard core haters of Muslims. Tomorrow it'll be somebody else.

(disclosure: in the above paragraph, "yesterday," "today," and "tomorrow" are used in the poetic sense, and not a reference to specific 24-hour periods)

432 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:38:26pm

re: #430 kmg

I don't think that right wing Europeans caused the radicalization of some Muslims, just like I don't think Muslim radicals caused Europeans or others to become right wing. Muslim radicals were created by the upbringing they received at home, in school and in the mosque. And it was probably these similar influences that caused right wingers to dislike Muslims (and possibly other people who are "different"). Before 911 not much notice was taken of Muslims and trouble with integrating into a new country isn't just their issue. It also occurs to other immigrant groups. However, the very violent reactions of disgruntled Muslims (in Europe and elsewhere) is something that is unique to them. To pretend otherwise is just dishonest.


Huh?

433 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:39:12pm

The more I watch this the more I hate Ray Nagin and Kathleen Blanco. How the fuck do you run a city/state without knowing the law? Idiots.

434 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:39:30pm

re: #419 EmmmieG

Actually, almost all of the founding fathers would likely have not known too much about the "Mohammadens" and might likely never have met one.

The world was bigger then, in terms of what it took to get around.

Jefferson and Adams met with Tunisian leaders about piracy...leading to the quotes the RWR repeats incessantly.

Washington did once write to an employee, telling him about some hires "If they are good workmen, they may be of Asia, Africa or Europe. They may be Mohammedans, Jews or Christians of any sect, or they may be atheists."

435 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:39:55pm

re: #28 Charles

OT: thanks to Obdicut for defending LGF from attacks by both the deranged right and the deranged left:

[Link: www.thelibertypapers.org...]

Good grief!
The full moon is tomorrow night!
Hooray Obdicut!

436 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:40:21pm

re: #419 EmmmieG

Actually, almost all of the founding fathers would likely have not known too much about the "Mohammadens" and might likely never have met one.

The world was bigger then, in terms of what it took to get around.

Oh, Thomas Jefferson found out in a big way, when we getting our ships and crews taken in the Med by the Barbary pirates...and he sent the Marines on one of their first overseas missions to kick the shit outta the Tripolitans.

Wikipedia: Treaty of Tripoli

/From the halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli...

437 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:41:59pm

re: #420 Stanley Sea

My feeling about earthquakes? If it's bad, like you die, it will happen quite fast. ie. the building you are in will crush you in seconds.

Whenever we feel it and experience it, I think we are lucky.

I was living in Connecticut when Gloria hit in 1985. My gf invited me to spend the night at her parent's condo in Stamford until it blew over the next morning. He came into her bedroom in the morning and caught us...well, you know. I spent the rest of the time taping the windows with her father then watched the storm blow over. I wasn't allowed over there for 6 months.

438 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:42:23pm

re: #381 talon_262

And there's already a workaround, but I seriously don't see why people don't just upgrade to SP3 at this point anyway.

XP is a deprecated platform at this point anyway...

Well, I still have it, and my 7 year old HP is running fine, and I'm not shelling out the money for a whole new hardware setup just because Microsoft needs a little more money this year... and just to make sure... I'm downloading SP3 right now...

I didn't upgrade to SP3 a few years ago, since the initial release was freezing up some CPU's... but if Microsoft is going to deny me updates just because I still run SP2, then I'll just upgrade and coast along until they pull their next stunt.

Will probably be offline in a bit when this thing is down installing.

439 CuriousLurker  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:43:11pm

Well, it's late here on the East Coast and I've got some work to catch up on before I can drag my tired carcass off to bed, so I guess it's time for me to go.

*waves g'night to everyone*

440 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:43:12pm

re: #387 talon_262

I love Win7...it (like Vista before it) may be RAM and disk space hungry, but those are relatively dirt cheap nowadays.

Which is what people have said at every Windows release for the last 17 years. I wonder what the current version of Windows does so well, what fabulous abilities it grants, that warrants the bloat of that one program expanding to evenly match the capacity granted by Moore's Law for almost two decades? It seems like everytime Intel (or whoever) comes out with a better chip, and/or the standard for storage significantly expands, that Microsoft soon thereafter comes out with a new Windows version that immediately eats up all the extra speed and space that you were told you were going to have available for your own use.

441 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:43:49pm

re: #433 Cannadian Club Akbar

The more I watch this the more I hate Ray Nagin and Kathleen Blanco. How the fuck do you run a city/state without knowing the law? Idiots.

This show is amazing. Those poor people in the dome, watching the roof blow away, trying to keep their kids safe.

The water! The sounds . . . that's exactly what it sounds like.

442 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:44:16pm

re: #430 kmg

I don't think that right wing Europeans caused the radicalization of some Muslims, just like I don't think Muslim radicals caused Europeans or others to become right wing. Muslim radicals were created by the upbringing they received at home, in school and in the mosque. And it was probably these similar influences that caused right wingers to dislike Muslims (and possibly other people who are "different"). Before 911 not much notice was taken of Muslims and trouble with integrating into a new country isn't just their issue. It also occurs to other immigrant groups. However, the very violent reactions of disgruntled Muslims (in Europe and elsewhere) is something that is unique to them. To pretend otherwise is just dishonest.

Oh, and welcome to America.

443 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:44:16pm

re: #419 EmmmieG

Actually, almost all of the founding fathers would likely have not known too much about the "Mohammadens" and might likely never have met one.

The world was bigger then, in terms of what it took to get around.

Really... we developed a whole new sea fleet because of the "Mohammadens" Our Founding fathers were only too knowledgeable of them... see...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

444 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:45:33pm

re: #441 reine.de.tout

This show is amazing. Those poor people in the dome, watching the roof blow away, trying to keep their kids safe.

The water! The sounds . . . that's exactly what it sounds like.

This just pisses me off even more. Run your fucking government!!!!

445 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:45:48pm

re: #419 EmmmieG

Actually, almost all of the founding fathers would likely have not known too much about the "Mohammadens" and might likely never have met one.

The world was bigger then, in terms of what it took to get around.

They not only met them, they signed treaties with them:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

-Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11

446 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:45:52pm

re: #433 Cannadian Club Akbar

The more I watch this the more I hate Ray Nagin and Kathleen Blanco. How the fuck do you run a city/state without knowing the law? Idiots.

What? It was Bush's fault.

447 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:46:40pm

re: #445 goddamnedfrank

They not only met them, they signed treaties with them:

That's the quote the RWR does NOT like.

448 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:47:24pm

re: #438 Walter L. Newton

Well, I still have it, and my 7 year old HP is running fine, and I'm not shelling out the money for a whole new hardware setup just because Microsoft needs a little more money this year... and just to make sure... I'm downloading SP3 right now...

I didn't upgrade to SP3 a few years ago, since the initial release was freezing up some CPU's... but if Microsoft is going to deny me updates just because I still run SP2, then I'll just upgrade and coast along until they pull their next stunt.

Will probably be offline in a bit when this thing is down installing.

Don't get me wrong...if you have a machine built for XP that still runs fine, put SP3 on it and it's good to go. However, if your hardware is supported and is capable of running Win7, it's a good investment, if only from the security and usability angles. A OEM copy is Win7 Home Premium is about a hundred bucks...

449 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:47:31pm

re: #430 kmg

However, the very violent reactions of disgruntled Muslims (in Europe and elsewhere) is something that is unique to them. To pretend otherwise is just dishonest.

"Unique to them" how? If you want to get into an extensive historical discussion of the relationship between majority/minority cultures in any society we can do that, but I don't think there's anything historically exceptional or special about the way that some extremists Muslims are behaving (in Europe and elsewhere).

Everybody is ultimately responsible for their own behavior. But if we create a society where we're constantly trying to bully and marginalize people of a certain race or religion, then they're more likely to resort to increasingly desperate measures to assert the equality they're due.

450 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:47:48pm

re: #445 goddamnedfrank

They not only met them, they signed treaties with them:

They really don't want to bring the Treaty of Tripoli up? Or do they?

lol

451 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:48:15pm

Fuck this is making me hot. God damn it.

452 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:49:38pm

re: #443 Walter L. Newton

Really... we developed a whole new sea fleet because of the "Mohammadens" Our Founding fathers were only too knowledgeable of them... see...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

So we should also be at war today with Britain, Canada, Mexico, Spain, etc...?

453 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:50:15pm

re: #448 talon_262

Don't get me wrong...if you have a machine built for XP that still runs fine, put SP3 on it and it's good to go. However, if your hardware is supported and is capable of running Win7, it's a good investment, if only from the security and usability angles. A OEM copy is Win7 Home Premium is about a hundred bucks...

My HP was top of the line 7 years ago, cost over 3000 dollars at that time, so, it's kept up fine. I don't do gaming or real heavy media, so it gets me by for the internet, writing and my occasional programming gigs. Weakest link, it can only address a gig of memory, so I can't buff that up any further.

454 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:50:28pm

Goodnight, all.

455 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:50:34pm

re: #433 Cannadian Club Akbar

The more I watch this the more I hate Ray Nagin and Kathleen Blanco. How the fuck do you run a city/state without knowing the law? Idiots.

I recall they didn't get much press over their incompetence. George Bush took all the heat for that. In fact he & Dick Cheney were accused of placing bombs in the

456 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:50:53pm

re: #426 SanFranciscoZionist

I believe that was the point of the column linked.

I believe the author was seeking to extrapolate from Washington On Judaism to Washington on All Abrahamic Religions.

457 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:51:04pm

re: #452 elbruce

So we should also be at war today with Britain, Canada, Mexico, Spain, etc...?

I have to say, I like our chances against Tunisia these days. But there is the treaty...

458 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:51:07pm

re: #448 talon_262

However, if your hardware is supported and is capable of running Win7, it's a good investment, if only from the security and usability angles. A OEM copy is Win7 Home Premium is about a hundred bucks...

I should throw in that Ubuntu Linus is an excellent investment from security and usability angles as well. It costs about zero bucks.

459 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:51:37pm

re: #456 Spare O'Lake

I believe the author was seeking to extrapolate from Washington On Judaism to Washington on All Abrahamic Religions.

Or, Washington on Religious Tolerance in General.

460 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:51:47pm

I just got a tweet from Roger Ebert. Apparently he and his wife Chaz were on Oprah today. Anyone see it?

Ebert is everyone's hero. Dude cannot eat or talk, and has had the most incredible 'carnation possible.

461 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:52:09pm

re: #444 Cannadian Club Akbar

This just pisses me off even more. Run your fucking government!!!

Nagin wasn't there, of course. Or rather, he was there, got back just in time after travelling with his family to Dallas, where he bought a house to keep them nice and safe and sound.

While schoolbusses sat in a lot and got flooded, and folks in the dome watched the roof blow off.

462 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:52:15pm

re: #455 NJDhockeyfan

I recall they didn't get much press over their incompetence. George Bush took all the heat for that. In fact he & Dick Cheney were accused of placing bombs in the levees.

PIMF

463 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:52:21pm

*urp* Night lizards.

464 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:52:58pm

re: #452 elbruce

So we should also be at war today with Britain, Canada, Mexico, Spain, etc...?

What? What the fuck are you talking about? EmmmieG made the assertion that our Founding Fathers were not familiar with Islam. I was only pointing out they were, just as Goddamnfrank pointed out almost the very same thing.

Fuck off.. jerk.

465 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:53:12pm

re: #447 SanFranciscoZionist

That's the quote the RWR does NOT like.

John Adams was a plant.

466 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:54:00pm

re: #440 elbruce

Which is what people have said at every Windows release for the last 17 years. I wonder what the current version of Windows does so well, what fabulous abilities it grants, that warrants the bloat of that one program expanding to evenly match the capacity granted by Moore's Law for almost two decades? It seems like everytime Intel (or whoever) comes out with a better chip, and/or the standard for storage significantly expands, that Microsoft soon thereafter comes out with a new Windows version that immediately eats up all the extra speed and space that you were told you were going to have available for your own use.

Well, the fact is that computer component costs have dropped greatly and their performance has increased just as much (if not more) in the past 10 years of so, especially on RAM and storage (hard drives, optical drives and media, etc.). Unfortunately, as you said, MS engineers seem to eat up any performance gains with each new version of Windows, but it seems to be the nature of the beast.

Gotta push the demand for new machines with nice new Windows licenses on them...

467 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:54:14pm

re: #461 reine.de.tout

Nagin wasn't there, of course. Or rather, he was there, got back just in time after travelling with his family to Dallas, where he bought a house to keep them nice and safe and sound.

While schoolbusses sat in a lot and got flooded, and folks in the dome watched the roof blow off.

Nagin had no one to drive the buses which is bullshit. Nagin Fail. Fucking Douche. Mi head is gonna sploddy.

468 kmg  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:54:38pm

@449 Can you name some other so-called marginalized Europeans who engage in suicide bombings and riots? It's not just Muslims who are marginalized over there. You think the African immigrants have it easy? Geller may be extreme, but the political correctness on this site is becoming truly nauseating. It's like sociology 101 all over again! Ciao for now.

469 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:55:21pm

re: #442 Stanley Sea

Oh, and welcome to America.

The point of this thread is that America can no longer pretend to be insulated from developments in Europe and in the rest of the world.

470 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:56:00pm

re: #458 elbruce

I should throw in that Ubuntu Linus is an excellent investment from security and usability angles as well. It costs about zero bucks.

True, true....and Walter, being the programmer he is, might be able to squeeze some more performance out of his 7-year-old lappy (with 1 GB of RAM) if he ever decided to go the Linux route.

471 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:56:02pm

re: #468 kmg

@449 Can you name some other so-called marginalized Europeans who engage in suicide bombings and riots? It's not just Muslims who are marginalized over there. You think the African immigrants have it easy? Geller may be extreme, but the political correctness on this site is becoming truly nauseating. It's like sociology 101 all over again! Ciao for now.

And....where do you live? Europe? US of A?

please. ciao is good.

472 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:56:26pm

re: #470 talon_262

True, true...and Walter, being the programmer he is, might be able to squeeze some more performance out of his 7-year-old lappy (with 1 GB of RAM) if he ever decided to go the Linux route.

I never said lappy... I have a tower.

473 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:56:49pm

re: #469 Spare O'Lake

The point of this thread is that America can no longer pretend to be insulated from developments in Europe and in the rest of the world.

BOOGA BOOGA.

Sharia signs, in red dripping blood.

You got us.

474 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:57:25pm

re: #452 elbruce

So we should also be at war today with Britain, Canada, Mexico, Spain, etc...?

What the fuck are you talking about?

475 freetoken  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:57:41pm

re: #468 kmg

... Geller may be extreme, but the political correctness on this site is becoming truly nauseating. It's like sociology 101 all over again! Ciao for now.


yeah, right...

476 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:57:46pm

re: #472 Walter L. Newton

I never said lappy... I have a tower.

Ahh...I don't know where I got that you had a laptop from.

477 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:58:02pm

re: #474 Spare O'Lake

What the fuck are you talking about?

I already covered that "what the fuck" in my re: #464 Walter L. Newton

478 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:58:30pm

re: #468 kmg

Karma: 6

kmg

Registered since: Aug 20, 2006 at 2:14 pm
No. of comments posted: 56
No. of links posted: 0

Yep. And you're in seat 1, front row. Enjoy the schooling.

479 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:58:59pm

re: #468 kmg

@449 Can you name some other so-called marginalized Europeans who engage in suicide bombings and riots? It's not just Muslims who are marginalized over there. You think the African immigrants have it easy? Geller may be extreme, but the political correctness on this site is becoming truly nauseating. It's like sociology 101 all over again! Ciao for now.

Concern troll is concerned...

/56 posts in 4 years...why does something smell funny?

480 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:59:16pm

re: #478 wlewisiii

Karma: 6

kmg

Registered since: Aug 20, 2006 at 2:14 pm
No. of comments posted: 56
No. of links posted: 0

Yep. And you're in seat 1, front row. Enjoy the schooling.

Helen Thomas. Heh.

481 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:59:17pm

re: #473 Stanley Sea

BOOGA BOOGA.

Sharia signs, in red dripping blood.

You got us.

What the fuck are you talking about, creep?

482 freetoken  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:59:29pm

re: #460 Stanley Sea


Ebert is everyone's hero.

Apparently not everybody. Came across an attack on Ebert today by one of the Islam-haters, because Ebert wrote something about Park51. (Unless there is another well known "Roger Ebert" out there and I've confused them.)

483 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:59:45pm

Where is DF?

484 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:00:25pm

re: #464 Walter L. Newton

EmmmieG made the assertion that our Founding Fathers were not familiar with Islam. I was only pointing out they were, just as Goddamnfrank pointed out almost the very same thing.

You said:

Really... we developed a whole new sea fleet because of the "Mohammadens" Our Founding fathers were only too knowledgeable of them... see...

... and then linked to information about a war. The way the post was written looked pretty loaded, as if insinuating that all we need to know about Islam is how to fight it. If I misread your intent, I apologize.

485 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:00:40pm

re: #476 talon_262

Ahh...I don't know where I got that you had a laptop from.

I do have about 5 or 6 laptops laying around here... and my brand new little EEE PC Netbook which I have barely used (will take it to France with me this Jan 2011). I've got enough PC's around, I'm not going to ever be offline. And my girlfriend/domestic partner is the head of IT at a chain of charity thrift stores, so there is a lot of surplus stuff available there too.

486 freetoken  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:01:47pm

For instance, there is a post over on "Right Wing News" that is a full attack on Ebert because the latter criticized Palin and Schlessinger in his column about Cordoba House.

487 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:02:25pm

re: #481 Spare O'Lake

What the fuck are you talking about, creep?

Ms. Sharia. That chick knocking on your door. Open please!

488 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:02:36pm

re: #484 elbruce

Don't sweat it. Walter is a highly competent concern troll when it comes to those of us who are left of center.

489 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:03:27pm

re: #468 kmg

Oh, please.
Don't whine.
It's . . . unseemly.

490 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:04:08pm

re: #468 kmg

@449 Can you name some other so-called marginalized Europeans who engage in suicide bombings and riots?

Does it have to be suicide bombings specifically, or will any bombings do? Also, it's not just now, but any time in history Because then there'd be let's see... the Irish during the "troubles," various Russians under the Czars... oh jeez, I'd have to do some research, but it seems I could assemble a pretty long list in the Balkans alone.

491 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:04:42pm

re: #485 Walter L. Newton

I do have about 5 or 6 laptops laying around here... and my brand new little EEE PC Netbook which I have barely used (will take it to France with me this Jan 2011). I've got enough PC's around, I'm not going to ever be offline. And my girlfriend/domestic partner is the head of IT at a chain of charity thrift stores, so there is a lot of surplus stuff available there too.

If you can, max out your EEE PC with as much RAM as it'll take (most netbooks max out at 2 GB)...it'll make things much easier and is relatively inexpensive.

492 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:05:23pm

re: #488 wlewisiii

Don't sweat it. Walter is a highly competent concern troll when it comes to those of us who are left of center.

Walter is not a troll. Can't we disagree on LGF without being called trolls? Trolls are the assholes who show up here just to cause trouble.

493 Nimed  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:05:41pm

re: #468 kmg

@449 Can you name some other so-called marginalized Europeans who engage in suicide bombings and riots? It's not just Muslims who are marginalized over there. You think the African immigrants have it easy? Geller may be extreme, but the political correctness on this site is becoming truly nauseating. It's like sociology 101 all over again! Ciao for now.

Is there something special about suicide bombings? If plain old vanilla bombings and assassinations suffice, you might want to learn a bit about the history of ETA.

494 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:06:01pm

re: #484 elbruce

You said:

... and then linked to information about a war. The way the post was written looked pretty loaded, as if insinuating that all we need to know about Islam is how to fight it. If I misread your intent, I apologize.

You know something, you're rather fucked up, aren't you. If you were paying any attention to the thread, EmmmieG was suggesting that our FOunding Fathers knew little about the people of Islam. I was pointing out to EmmmieG that our country at the time of our founding, was very much involved with Islamic leaders and politics.

Goddammfrank in a few comments below mine also point this out to EmmmieG in a link to another entry in regards to Islam and our founding fathers.

So... I don't know what you got sticking up your ass, but you've got a lot of fucking nerve slamming into me like that when I was simply trying to inform someone of something that they may not have been aware of.

Wanker.

495 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:06:04pm

re: #486 freetoken

For instance, there is a post over on "Right Wing News" that is a full attack on Ebert because the latter criticized Palin and Schlessinger in his column about Cordoba House.

RWN is a bunch of choads...perfectly representative of what's wrong with the GOP today.

496 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:06:52pm

re: #466 talon_262

Unfortunately, as you said, MS engineers seem to eat up any performance gains with each new version of Windows, but it seems to be the nature of the beast.


I'm not really trying to evangelize here or anything, just saying that the beast can be put out to pasture.

497 Nimed  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:07:01pm

re: #490 elbruce

Does it have to be suicide bombings specifically, or will any bombings do? Also, it's not just now, but any time in history Because then there'd be let's see... the Irish during the "troubles," various Russians under the Czars... oh jeez, I'd have to do some research, but it seems I could assemble a pretty long list in the Balkans alone.

Damn you, elbruce.
/

498 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:07:24pm

re: #486 freetoken

For instance, there is a post over on "Right Wing News" that is a full attack on Ebert because the latter criticized Palin and Schlessinger in his column about Cordoba House.

OMG Roger Ebert. He's a commie, I'm sure.

Dude is one of our literary treasurers. And a major example, dealing with cancer - no food, no speech. Hello!

But his comments fall on the left side of the fence. Oh the horror, he called out Sister Sarah et al. "Good Americans" will try to destroy him.

Oh my disgust.

499 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:07:50pm

re: #488 wlewisiii

Don't sweat it. Walter is a highly competent concern troll when it comes to those of us who are left of center.

Hey cake-brain. Why don't you go back up thread and pay a little attention to what was posted and how ElBruce is making some really asinine assumptions... read slowly, you'll figure it out.

500 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:08:04pm

re: #484 elbruce

re: #494 Walter L. Newton

Can we just chill and save our energies for people who really deserve it, not each other?

Geezus...

501 Racer X  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:08:11pm
Youtube Video

Needs to be said.

Now everyone just chill the fuck out.

;-)

502 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:09:03pm

re: #487 Stanley Sea

Ms. Sharia. That chick knocking on your door. Open please!

If you can, please try to express yourself in a comprehansible manner.

503 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:09:13pm

re: #494 Walter L. Newton

You know something, you're rather fucked up, aren't you. If you were paying any attention to the thread, EmmmieG was suggesting.

I'll take this response to mean that I did in fact misinterpret the intent of your post, and that from the level of vitriol you're ramping up that this is the first time that's ever happened to you in your life.

504 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:09:14pm

re: #492 NJDhockeyfan

hmmm. I'm having a problem with this distinction recently.

505 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:09:24pm

re: #493 Nimed

Is there something special about suicide bombings?

FOX calls them homicide bombings, which you'd think would also include non suicide bombings that kill people and wouldn't include suicide bombings that fail to kill innocent victims. I once had a long and unproductive discussion with my step-dad about this where I suggesting using the already established term kamikaze attack.

506 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:10:30pm

re: #499 Walter L. Newton

Hey cake-brain. Why don't you go back up thread and pay a little attention to what was posted and how ElBruce is making some really asinine assumptions... read slowly, you'll figure it out.

Obviously wlewisiii is trying to stir the pot to cause two lizards to get in a fight. I think I know who the troll currently is.

507 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:10:42pm

re: #503 elbruce

I'll take this response to mean that I did in fact misinterpret the intent of your post, and that from the level of vitriol you're ramping up that this is the first time that's ever happened to you in your life.

And it won't be the last. You keep playing, I'll be here.

508 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:12:06pm

re: #502 Spare O'Lake

If you can, please try to express yourself in a comprehansible manner.

That, Spare, is the entire point.

You are full of fear. We cannot talk you down.

509 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:12:12pm

SP3 is installing... I suspect I'll be down for a bit... play nice.

510 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:12:30pm

re: #504 Stanley Sea

hmmm. I'm having a problem with this distinction recently.

If you have a better description of trolls, go for it. I'm just trying to make a point. I think I was close.

511 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:13:14pm

re: #505 goddamnedfrank

FOX calls them homicide bombings, which you'd think would also include non suicide bombings that kill people and wouldn't include suicide bombings that fail to kill innocent victims. I once had a long and unproductive discussion with my step-dad about this where I suggesting using the already established term kamikaze attack.

I tend to not like 'homicide bombing' for that reason.

512 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:14:49pm

re: #505 goddamnedfrank

FOX calls them homicide bombings, which you'd think would also include non suicide bombings that kill people and wouldn't include suicide bombings that fail to kill innocent victims. I once had a long and unproductive discussion with my step-dad about this where I suggesting using the already established term kamikaze attack.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but the Japanese kamikazis targeted the US military, unlike the Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers who target innocent civilians.

513 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:15:31pm

re: #511 SanFranciscoZionist

I tend to not like 'homicide bombing' for that reason.

Call it what you want. It's pure murder by evil assholes period.

514 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:16:51pm

re: #512 Spare O'Lake

Please correct me if I am wrong, but the Japanese kamikazis targeted the US military, unlike the Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers who target innocent civilians.

Suicide bombers also hit military targets, though.

I have no problem with 'suicide bomber'. The term accurately describes what is unique about the particular form of violence.

515 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:17:14pm

re: #496 elbruce

I'm not really trying to evangelize here or anything, just saying that the beast can be put out to pasture.

If you're speaking of Linux (or even MacOS) supplanting Windows as the OS of choice for consumer and business PCs, it's a long (if not impossible) hoe to row. Windows is a helluva lot better than it used to be (WinME, anyone?), but there has to be a legitimate contender to take MS' crown before Windows could be knocked off the throne.

Linux isn't ready for desktops (not for everyone and that's where it needs to be to be a true desktop contender) and Apple has MacOS tied so tightly to sales of their hardware (so it's gonna to stay a niche OS), so for right now (and the foreseeable future), Windows will keep its desktop OS dominance.

516 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:17:47pm

re: #513 NJDhockeyfan

Call it what you want. It's pure murder by evil assholes period.

And probably doesn't need a better name than that.

517 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:17:55pm

Time to call it a night. Thank you, all, for your support at the top of the thread. In the meantime, hopefully, god will bless all of us.

Good night.

518 Lidane  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:18:17pm

re: #505 goddamnedfrank

Homicide bombing has to be the dumbest phrase ever. I've never liked it.

519 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:18:48pm

Spare, different subject (kind of)

What is your take on the Tea Party Guy, Mark Williams' latest statement?

[Link: tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

520 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:19:22pm

re: #514 SanFranciscoZionist

Suicide bombers also hit military targets, though.

I have no problem with 'suicide bomber'. The term accurately describes what is unique about the particular form of violence.

Suicide bombers target anyone weather it's military or civilian targets. They don't care if it's muslims or non muslims. They want to kill anyone.

521 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:19:47pm

re: #519 Stanley Sea

To Spare,

Love. Stunley

:)
xx00xx00

522 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:20:43pm

re: #508 Stanley Sea

That, Spare, is the entire point.

You are full of fear. We cannot talk you down.

Again you speak drivel.
Actually, the point seems to be that you seem to be incapable or unwilling to express yourself in a comprehensible manner. Go ahead, try to express your point in English, using coherent language.

523 Stanghazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:21:47pm

re: #522 Spare O'Lake

keep reading. There's more love ahead.

Good night now

524 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:22:28pm

re: #522 Spare O'Lake

Again you speak drivel.
Actually, the point seems to be that you seem to be incapable or unwilling to express yourself in a comprehensible manner. Go ahead, try to express your point in English, using coherent language.

Actually, you're coming off looking like a jackass, IMO.

525 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:23:18pm

re: #514 SanFranciscoZionist

Suicide bombers also hit military targets, though.

I have no problem with 'suicide bomber'. The term accurately describes what is unique about the particular form of violence.

Actually, the Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers specialize in buses, restaurants and crowded civilian targets.

526 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:23:39pm

re: #515 talon_262

Arrghhh...meant "it's a long (if not impossible) row to hoe".

527 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:23:45pm

re: #520 NJDhockeyfan

Suicide bombers target anyone weather it's military or civilian targets. They don't care if it's muslims or non muslims. They want to kill anyone.

So did the IRA, and they weren't committing suicide at the same time with their bombing campaign.

528 Lidane  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:24:23pm

re: #525 Spare O'Lake

Actually, the Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers specialize in blowing themselves up and taking as many people as they can with them, whether it's civilians or military.

FTFY

529 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:25:37pm

re: #525 Spare O'Lake

Actually, the Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers specialize in buses, restaurants and crowded civilian targets.

Add mosques & Army recruiting offices...

WANA: A suicide bomber blew himself up inside a mosque in Wana on Monday killing 26 people, including a former member of the National Assembly.

Suicide Bomber Kills Dozens in Attack on Iraqi Army Recruits

530 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:25:45pm

re: #512 Spare O'Lake

Please correct me if I am wrong, but the Japanese kamikazis targeted the US military, unlike the Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers who target innocent civilians.

Kamikaze means divine wind, and under Imperial Japan carried a religious significance as a self sacrificing attack intended to defend the Emperor's Shinto godhood. As the Imperial Japanese raped the people of Nanking and targeted civilians for brutal abuses, medical experiments, forced labor, and tossed babies on bayonets, your distinction seems rather petty and meaningless.

531 Lidane  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:25:57pm

re: #527 elbruce

So did the IRA, and they weren't committing suicide at the same time with their bombing campaign.

That's why there are bombers and suicide bombers.

A bomber doesn't care who dies, just as long as it's not them. A suicide bomber takes as many as they can with them when they die.

532 Nimed  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:27:07pm

re: #514 SanFranciscoZionist

Suicide bombers also hit military targets, though.

I have no problem with 'suicide bomber'. The term accurately describes what is unique about the particular form of violence.

As far as I'm concerned, the essential distinction is intent. When it comes to bombings, whether civilians are specifically targeted or it's very likely that an attack results in numerous civilian casualties.

533 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:28:41pm

re: #519 Stanley Sea

Spare, different subject (kind of)

What is your take on the Tea Party Guy, Mark Williams' latest statement?

[Link: tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

He's a bigoted idiot. Why do you ask?

534 freetoken  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:29:08pm

re: #530 goddamnedfrank

The "kamikaze" pilots were a last ditch effort, often forcing young males to do what they didn't otherwise wish to do.

The brutalization of Nanking was carried out by the plain old Army (and henchmen.)

So I'm not sure the phrase "kamikaze" really can apply very well to general terrorism or violence.

535 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:29:45pm

re: #524 talon_262

Actually, you're coming off looking like a jackass, IMO.

*flick*

536 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:32:15pm

re: #534 freetoken

...I'm not sure the phrase "kamikaze" really can apply very well to general terrorism or violence.

No it can't. You are correct. They were military bombers aiming at military enemies. That is totally different than Islamic terrorist suicide bombers aiming at civilians, politicians, and military members.

537 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:33:45pm

This is an absolutely absurd and pointless semantic discussion.

Just my .02

538 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:33:50pm

re: #515 talon_262

If you're speaking of Linux (or even MacOS) supplanting Windows as the OS of choice for consumer and business PCs, it's a long (if not impossible) hoe to row. Windows is a helluva lot better than it used to be (WinME, anyone?), but there has to be a legitimate contender to take MS' crown before Windows could be knocked off the throne.

Linux isn't ready for desktops (not for everyone and that's where it needs to be to be a true desktop contender) and Apple has MacOS tied so tightly to sales of their hardware (so it's gonna to stay a niche OS), so for right now (and the foreseeable future), Windows will keep its desktop OS dominance.

The Vista release reminds me a lot of ME/2000, particularly in that it instantly broke everybody's programs.

For business purposes, the only real problem with Linux is that most businesses use specialized or propietary software, and while they can be roped into upgrading it to match the newest Windows release (because they have little choice) they haven't been inclined (aka. forced) to make any outlays to make sure it's Linux compliant. Even major business software companies like Oracle don't bother going there, because they don't perceive any urgent need to.

But in terms of what the box does, and what basic software is available for it (including OpenOffice), Ubuntu has pretty much everything that a generic company would need for its desktops. A word processor, spreadsheet and browser covers 98% of business purposes alone.

I did hear a while back where a couple of European governments were considering switching to OpenOffice's .odx format (if not Linux) specifically for the reason that Windows' .doc format is technically proprietary and therefore all of their government documents could hypothetically be claimed as the intellectual property of Microsoft. I imagine that any corporation might have the same concern, if they were given a reason to think about it. The fact is, if you're reliant on Windows, then your entire corporation, government or whatnot is reliant on Microsoft not pulling the rug out from under your EULA - which they have the right to do at any time according to the EULA.

539 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:34:50pm

re: #530 goddamnedfrank

Kamikaze means divine wind, and under Imperial Japan carried a religious significance as a self sacrificing attack intended to defend the Emperor's Shinto godhood. As the Imperial Japanese raped the people of Nanking and targeted civilians for brutal abuses, medical experiments, forced labor, and tossed babies on bayonets, your distinction seems rather petty and meaningless.

The distinction between military and non-military targets is a key distinction between Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers and almost all others.
Wouldn't it be a kind of neat trick for a suicide bomber to commit the acts in China which you described?

540 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:36:28pm

re: #531 Lidane

A bomber doesn't care who dies, just as long as it's not them. A suicide bomber takes as many as they can with them when they die.

I would argue that many (non-suicide) bombers try to "take" as many as they can also. The only real difference is whether they include themselves in the blast radius.

541 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:37:27pm

re: #534 freetoken

The "kamikaze" pilots were a last ditch effort, often forcing young males to do what they didn't otherwise wish to do.

What does this prove other than that Kamikaze is a tactic of asymmetrical warfare. Sound familiar?

542 Nimed  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:40:20pm

re: #536 NJDhockeyfan

No it can't. You are correct. They were military bombers aiming at military enemies. That is totally different than Islamic terrorist suicide bombers aiming at civilians, politicians, and military members.

In a state of war, non-captive military members are acceptable targets.

543 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:40:24pm

re: #540 elbruce

I would argue that many (non-suicide) bombers try to "take" as many as they can also. The only real difference is whether they include themselves in the blast radius.

Those are the real demons out there getting children to carry out the suicide bombings. It's celebrated by the Palestinians plus the terrorists in Pakistan & Afghanistan are doing it as well.

544 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:40:33pm

re: #540 elbruce

I would argue that many (non-suicide) bombers try to "take" as many as they can also. The only real difference is whether they include themselves in the blast radius.

Intentional targeting of innocent civilians for the sake of mass murder is the essence of Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombing.

545 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:40:47pm

re: #533 Spare O'Lake

He's a bigoted idiot. Why do you ask?

SP3 is still installing, so I didn't have to reboot yet... so I will weigh in on Williams while I can.

He's an idiot, and in more ways than one. He's calling Bloomberg and Stringer "Judenrats," which, as a plural, doesn't make sense, and over all, a Judenrat is a reference to a governing Jewish council, set up by the Nazi's, as a liaison between the Nazi's and local Jewish citizens of a area, usually a large city, like Warsaw.

In itself, the tern Judenrat doesn't always denote a bad thing to start with. Many of the Judenrats we staffed by Jews who felt that they could help mitigate the oppressive plans of the Nazi's, by trying to work with them on certain administrative issues.

Adam Czerniakow, the head of the Judenrat of Warsaw, was very much working for the Jews, not the Nazi's, in his position, and eventually committed suicide instead of signing the first orders to remove Jews from the ghetto to Treblinka.

So, I'm not sure what Williams is trying to say, it's an odd way of saying that Bloomberg is working with the Muslims, since the Judenrat were not lock, stock and barrel in the pocket of the Germans.

He's a stupid racist man.

546 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:42:42pm

re: #539 Spare O'Lake

The distinction between military and non-military targets is a key distinction between Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers and almost all others.

So there have never been people exploding bombs targeting civilians unless they were also both "Islamofascist" and "suicide" bombers? Or at least, so few as to be not worth mention? Because that seems like a pretty large hole to drive through.

This is what happens when you keep stringing extensive strings of adjectives together to try to gin up some outrage against the object of your statement. "Islamofascist terrorist suicide bomber" is a pretty narrow group. They would have to be all of the following:

1. "Islamo-" indicating that they believe they're doing it for (their twisted version of) Islam

2. "-fascist" indicating something or other (are there any fascist governments in the Islamic world? Who are they?)

3. "terrorist" indicating... that you're committing violence against civilians for political purposes? That seems to cover it all right there.

4. "suicide" indicating that you're going to die in the blast as well

5. "bombers," apparently the only thing we can all agree on as a category.

So to turn around and suggest that the only "distinction" is (pick only one point from the above five) is disengenuous at best.

547 freetoken  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:43:11pm

re: #541 goddamnedfrank

What does this prove other than that Kamikaze is a tactic of asymmetrical warfare. Sound familiar?

Well, yes. Similarities in tactics though don't shed much light on motivations nor on strategies on how to counter the larger social movement(s) which spawn those who use such tactics.

548 Racer X  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:44:20pm

Islamofascistsuicidebombers are bad.

Mmmkay?

549 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:44:42pm

re: #544 Spare O'Lake

Intentional targeting of innocent civilians for the sake of mass murder is the essence of Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombing.

There, you did it again. Try this:

Intentional targeting of innocent civilians for the sake of mass murder is the essence of terrorist bombing.

The word "Islamofascist" indicates that the perpetrator is doing it for an extremist and warped view of Islam. The word "suicide" indicates that the perpetrator will be in the blast radius. Neither of these are the "essence" of what you said.

550 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:44:51pm

Good grief!
Later, taters!
Play nicely, or be really, really mean.

551 sagehen  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:45:15pm

re: #278 webevintage

So are you Team Evil or Team Stupid.
It was brilliant...

I'm team evil.

Wyatt's right... nobody's that stupid. Nobody.

552 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:47:00pm

re: #546 elbruce

So there have never been people exploding bombs targeting civilians unless they were also both "Islamofascist" and "suicide" bombers? Or at least, so few as to be not worth mention? Because that seems like a pretty large hole to drive through.

This is what happens when you keep stringing extensive strings of adjectives together to try to gin up some outrage against the object of your statement. "Islamofascist terrorist suicide bomber" is a pretty narrow group. They would have to be all of the following:

1. "Islamo-" indicating that they believe they're doing it for (their twisted version of) Islam

2. "-fascist" indicating something or other (are there any fascist governments in the Islamic world? Who are they?)

3. "terrorist" indicating... that you're committing violence against civilians for political purposes? That seems to cover it all right there.

4. "suicide" indicating that you're going to die in the blast as well

5. "bombers," apparently the only thing we can all agree on as a category.

So to turn around and suggest that the only "distinction" is (pick only one point from the above five) is disengenuous at best.

I said almost all.
Go for it, I'm waiting.

553 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:48:54pm

re: #543 NJDhockeyfan

Those are the real demons out there getting children to carry out the suicide bombings. It's celebrated by the Palestinians plus the terrorists in Pakistan & Afghanistan are doing it as well.

Uh huh. There are some bad people doing bad things. What's your point? That I have to extend definitions of tactics beyond what is reasonable for some reason?

I'm perfectly capable of condemning such actions without having to string together a bunch of meaningless and confusing adjectives. I use words according to their definitions rather than just to boost the emotive impact of what I'm saying.

PS: do you have any links regarding child suicide bombings specifically? I haven't heard about any of those, so I'd like to check that out.

554 mcaton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:49:51pm

And here's some more hallowed ground: Gettysburg, where 8,000 Americans fell. And they're going to put a casino on it, or at least try. The American Legion is upset, but where are Geller et al now? Missing in action? That said, while I enjoy this blog and I'm glad someone is tracking the Tea Party/Religious Pseudo-conservative hypocrisy, I'm starting to feel that all this pointing out of inconsistency is a waste of time. Because many (most?) of the anti-mosque people would openly agree that their position on Park51 stems from specific bias against Islam, which of course is the definition of bigotry.

555 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:50:32pm

re: #549 elbruce

There, you did it again. Try this:


The word "Islamofascist" indicates that the perpetrator is doing it for an extremist and warped view of Islam. The word "suicide" indicates that the perpetrator will be in the blast radius. Neither of these are the "essence" of what you said.

I meant what I said, and I said what I meant. Own it, fella, Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers are scumsucking fuckwads.

556 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:51:07pm

re: #549 elbruce

There, you did it again. Try this:

The word "Islamofascist" indicates that the perpetrator is doing it for an extremist and warped view of Islam. The word "suicide" indicates that the perpetrator will be in the blast radius. Neither of these are the "essence" of what you said.

Would you feel better if we referred to them as Islamofascist martyrs causing man-caused disasters?

557 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:51:26pm

re: #552 Spare O'Lake

I said almost all.

Suggesting that you left a tiny hole. I think I demonstrated that you can drive eight lanes of various other kinds of terrorists, bombers, and whatnot through that.

Why can't you just say that terrorist bombers target civilians? Do you believe that adding more adjectives makes the meaning of that statement more correct, or just more inflammatory? If the latter, why should that be necessary?

558 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:51:33pm

re: #553 elbruce

Uh huh. There are some bad people doing bad things. What's your point? That I have to extend definitions of tactics beyond what is reasonable for some reason?

I'm perfectly capable of condemning such actions without having to string together a bunch of meaningless and confusing adjectives. I use words according to their definitions rather than just to boost the emotive impact of what I'm saying.

PS: do you have any links regarding child suicide bombings specifically? I haven't heard about any of those, so I'd like to check that out.

The adjectives are neither meaningless nor confusing.

559 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:53:09pm

re: #555 Spare O'Lake

I meant what I said, and I said what I meant. Own it, fella, Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers are scumsucking fuckwads.

OK.

Are terrorist bombers who aren't suicide bombers and/or aren't Islamofascists not scumsucking fuckwads? Explain that.

560 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:56:11pm

re: #557 elbruce

Suggesting that you left a tiny hole. I think I demonstrated that you can drive eight lanes of various other kinds of terrorists, bombers, and whatnot through that.

Why can't you just say that terrorist bombers target civilians? Do you believe that adding more adjectives makes the meaning of that statement more correct, or just more inflammatory? If the latter, why should that be necessary?

Because the Islamofascist terrorist variety of suicide bombers, with their demonstrated devotion to targeting of innocent civilians, are a truly special breed, worthy of being contrasted with and set apart from the rest of humanity.

561 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:57:18pm

This SP3 installation has been "stuck" on "performing cleanup" for 20 minutes not... drive is hashing away... I'm not sure if there is a problem, or that there is a lot still going on with the service pack?

562 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:57:33pm

re: #525 Spare O'Lake

Actually, the Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers specialize in buses, restaurants and crowded civilian targets.

That's true. They have also hit military targets. It's the technique, not the target, that is described as a 'suicide bombing'.

563 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:58:07pm

re: #558 Spare O'Lake

The adjectives are neither meaningless nor confusing.

I've never understood "Islamofascist." I know of no historical or contemporary confluence between Islam and fascism as either that religion or that political system have been historically defined.

Unless you're just using "fascism" to just mean "bad guys" instead of having an actual definitive meaning. Which would be indicative of the way that wingnuts parse language.

564 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:58:14pm

re: #527 elbruce

So did the IRA, and they weren't committing suicide at the same time with their bombing campaign.

The IRA would call off a bombing operation if they thought one of their people might die.

Never thought I'd miss the IRA.

565 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:59:21pm

re: #537 Fozzie Bear

This is an absolutely absurd and pointless semantic discussion.

Just my .02

True. But you can practically HEAR people's backs going up.

566 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:00:22pm

re: #560 Spare O'Lake

Because the Islamofascist terrorist variety of suicide bombers, with their demonstrated devotion to targeting of innocent civilians, are a truly special breed, worthy of being contrasted with and set apart from the rest of humanity.

Got it. So you're giving a complete moral pass to every terrorist bomber who is not Islamic and/or does not include themselves in the blast radius.

All of those people are just fine with you.

But if the person who kills as many innocent civilians as possible is either not a Muslim, or does not kill themselves at the same time, those people you're just fine with?

In that case, don't talk to me about who should be "set apart from humanity."

567 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:00:57pm

Wow. Just wow.

568 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:00:58pm

re: #539 Spare O'Lake

The distinction between military and non-military targets is a key distinction between Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers and almost all others.

Not seeing it. Civilian targets have been hit by terrorists who are not Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers--and Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers have hit military targets.

569 tnguitarist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:01:14pm

Oy.

570 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:01:27pm

re: #564 SanFranciscoZionist

The IRA would call off a bombing operation if they thought one of their people might die.

Never thought I'd miss the IRA.

Sounds to me like people are really concerned with the survival of terrorists bombers. Never mind the civilians, if the bomber also dies, that's bad, but if the bomber lives, that's good. WTF?

571 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:02:01pm

re: #553 elbruce

PS: do you have any links regarding child suicide bombings specifically? I haven't heard about any of those, so I'd like to check that out.

Are you fucking serious? You never heard of child suicide bombings? You're kidding right?

You can start at MEMRI and watch the many videos of the children shows where they brainwash kids into hoping they can become suicide bombers when they get older so they can kill Jews. It's not only there. There are kids in other countries like Turkey who are taught the same thing. I remember a story about a child wearing a suicide bomb belt was caught in Afghanistan a few years ago. He was told to find some soldiers them push a button and flowers would shoot out. There are plenty of stories like that.

572 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:02:06pm

You guys can argue about anything. My hat's off to you.

573 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:02:08pm

re: #548 Racer X

Islamofascistsuicidebombers are bad.

Mmmkay?

I can sign on to that much.

574 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:02:30pm

re: #559 elbruce

OK.

Are terrorist bombers who aren't suicide bombers and/or aren't Islamofascists not scumsucking fuckwads? Explain that.

re: #563 elbruce

I've never understood "Islamofascist." I know of no historical or contemporary confluence between Islam and fascism as either that religion or that political system have been historically defined.

Unless you're just using "fascism" to just mean "bad guys" instead of having an actual definitive meaning. Which would be indicative of the way that wingnuts parse language.

Your attempt to give cover to Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers in some larger subset is lame.

575 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:02:49pm

re: #565 SanFranciscoZionist

True. But you can practically HEAR people's backs going up.

Because those people have a hard on for muslims specifically and want to separate their worst and only their worst "apart from the rest of humanity."

576 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:03:36pm

re: #566 elbruce

Got it. So you're giving a complete moral pass to every terrorist bomber who is not Islamic and/or does not include themselves in the blast radius.

All of those people are just fine with you.

But if the person who kills as many innocent civilians as possible is either not a Muslim, or does not kill themselves at the same time, those people you're just fine with?

In that case, don't talk to me about who should be "set apart from humanity."

Liar.

577 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:03:57pm

re: #560 Spare O'Lake

Because the Islamofascist terrorist variety of suicide bombers, with their demonstrated devotion to targeting of innocent civilians, are a truly special breed, worthy of being contrasted with and set apart from the rest of humanity.

Oh, bullshit.

Someone mentioned the Rape of Nanking above. We've been talking about the Shoah today because of the slur on Bloomberg. Monsters are unfortunately common.

578 tnguitarist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:04:39pm

It's times like this when Charles needs to put up a new thread.

579 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:06:24pm

re: #572 JasonA

You guys can argue about anything. My hat's off to you.

What kind of hat?

580 Racer X  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:06:24pm

I'm out. Gonna leave you all with some feel-good uplifting music that is chock full of Ponies and Rainbows, and fruity smelling Unicorns.

Enjoy!

Youtube Video
581 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:06:25pm

re: #571 NJDhockeyfan

Are you fucking serious? You never heard of child suicide bombings? You're kidding right?

You can start at MEMRI and watch the many videos of the children shows where they brainwash kids into hoping they can become suicide bombers when they get older so they can kill Jews. It's not only there. There are kids in other countries like Turkey who are taught the same thing. I remember a story about a child wearing a suicide bomb belt was caught in Afghanistan a few years ago. He was told to find some soldiers them push a button and flowers would shoot out. There are plenty of stories like that.

There's plenty of indoctrination, but I can't recall an example of a child carrying such an operation out, except for your example from Afghanistan.

Not to say there hasn't been one. Did the kid in Afghanistan actually detonate, or were they able to stop him?

582 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:06:57pm

re: #579 Walter L. Newton

What kind of hat?

Let's say fedora.

583 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:07:01pm

Damn Chritofascist Anti-abortion anti-gay anti-science creationist jerks.
What'd I miss?

584 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:07:23pm

re: #583 Varek Raith

Damn Chritofascist Anti-abortion anti-gay anti-science creationist jerks.
What'd I miss?

We're fighting over Islamic exceptionalism. Again.

585 tnguitarist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:07:32pm

It seems we have a communication problem here.

Youtube Video
586 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:07:33pm

re: #582 JasonA

Let's say fedora.

I don't like fucking fedora's... so... what are you going to do about it?

587 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:08:45pm

re: #575 goddamnedfrank

Because those people have a hard on for muslims specifically and want to separate their worst and only their worst "apart from the rest of humanity."

Violent Radical Islam is the enemy, not "muslims".
By blurring the distinction you become an apologist for the scum.

588 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:09:11pm

re: #581 SanFranciscoZionist

There's plenty of indoctrination, but I can't recall an example of a child carrying such an operation out, except for your example from Afghanistan.

Not to say there hasn't been one. Did the kid in Afghanistan actually detonate, or were they able to stop him?

A quick search shows a lot of teenagers.

589 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:10:16pm

Ok... so.. the SP3 install hung up for 20-30 minutes at "performing clean up" and a number of tech blogs I'm looking at implied that they don't know why this happens, but just use task manager, abort the install at that point it is hung up on, and reboot, everything will be ok... we'll see... I'm going to reboot. May be back... may not be for a while...

590 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:10:23pm

re: #581 SanFranciscoZionist

There's plenty of indoctrination, but I can't recall an example of a child carrying such an operation out, except for your example from Afghanistan.

Not to say there hasn't been one. Did the kid in Afghanistan actually detonate, or were they able to stop him?

They caught him. I believe he got scared and turned himself in. I think he was about 10 years old. Those sick fuckers set him up. You have to wonder how many kids they got to carry out their sick bombing attacks.

591 sagehen  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:10:57pm

re: #560 Spare O'Lake

Because the Islamofascist terrorist variety of suicide bombers, with their demonstrated devotion to targeting of innocent civilians, are a truly special breed, worthy of being contrasted with and set apart from the rest of humanity.


Yes, they're totally different than the IRA, who were most certainly not islamo anything. They were all Catholic. The Tamil Tigers invented the suicide bomber vest; they weren't religious at all.

The Red-whatever terrorists in various European countries targeted civilians every time, but it wasn't anything to do with religion. Same for Basque separatists and Puerto Rican nationalists. South America has maoist guerillas who target civilians (again, nothing to do with religion).

I suppose the narco-terrorists could be considered religously motivated, if Capitalism is a faith.

592 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:11:16pm

re: #577 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, bullshit.

Someone mentioned the Rape of Nanking above. We've been talking about the Shoah today because of the slur on Bloomberg. Monsters are unfortunately common.

We were talking about suicide bombers in particular. Bullshit right back at you.

593 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:11:18pm

re: #571 NJDhockeyfan

Are you fucking serious? You never heard of child suicide bombings? You're kidding right?

You can start at MEMRI and watch the many videos of the children shows where they brainwash kids into hoping they can become suicide bombers when they get older so they can kill Jews. It's not only there. There are kids in other countries like Turkey who are taught the same thing. I remember a story about a child wearing a suicide bomb belt was caught in Afghanistan a few years ago. He was told to find some soldiers them push a button and flowers would shoot out. There are plenty of stories like that.

Wow, it sounds like it would be really easy of you to give me a list of news stories about suicide bombings that have been committed by children then, huh?

I don't see any of those at the link you provided.

594 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:11:21pm

re: #590 NJDhockeyfan

They caught him. I believe he got scared and turned himself in. I think he was about 10 years old. Those sick fuckers set him up. You have to wonder how many kids they got to carry out their sick bombing attacks.

Poor child. I hope he ended up someplace safe.

595 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:12:11pm

re: #591 sagehen

Yes, they're totally different than the IRA, who were most certainly not islamo anything. They were all Catholic. The Tamil Tigers invented the suicide bomber vest; they weren't religious at all.

The Red-whatever terrorists in various European countries targeted civilians every time, but it wasn't anything to do with religion. Same for Basque separatists and Puerto Rican nationalists. South America has maoist guerillas who target civilians (again, nothing to do with religion).

I suppose the narco-terrorists could be considered religously motivated, if Capitalism is a faith.

There's some narco outfit in Mexico that seems to have developed some weird variety of syncretic Christian cult of their own.

596 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:12:52pm

re: #574 Spare O'Lake

Your attempt to give cover to Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers in some larger subset is lame.

Oh no, I'm definitely against Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers.

Acutally, I'm against all Islamofascist terrorist bombers.

In fact, I'm against all terrorist bombers.

For that matter, I'm against all terrorists.

Apparently you only care about the Islamofascist suicide bomber ones. Which would make me way more anti-terrorism than you.

597 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:13:25pm

re: #592 Spare O'Lake

We were talking about suicide bombers in particular. Bullshit right back at you.

So Islamofascist suicide bombers are worse than other suicide bombers? The Tamil Tigers, already mentioned, are feeling hurt.

Bullshit lobbed right over the net!!!

598 kamala  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:14:21pm

Reza Aslan?!

That guy is a liar. And a supporter of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Muslim Brotherhood.

See: [Link: revuse.wetpaint.com...]

599 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:15:04pm

re: #571 NJDhockeyfan

Are you fucking serious? You never heard of child suicide bombings? You're kidding right?

You can start at MEMRI and watch the many videos of the children shows where they brainwash kids into hoping they can become suicide bombers when they get older so they can kill Jews. It's not only there. There are kids in other countries like Turkey who are taught the same thing. I remember a story about a child wearing a suicide bomb belt was caught in Afghanistan a few years ago. He was told to find some soldiers them push a button and flowers would shoot out. There are plenty of stories like that.

I know a marine who was in Viet Nam who spent many years in therapy due to being given an order to shoot every child who came too close to their position because one had once gotten through with a claymore mine strapped to his belly.

600 sagehen  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:15:38pm

re: #586 Walter L. Newton

I don't like fucking fedora's... so... what are you going to do about it?

Im'a slap you, because Neal Caffrey looks very very fine in his fedora. Everybody should wear fedoras. All the time.

601 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:15:39pm

re: #597 SanFranciscoZionist

So Islamofascist suicide bombers are worse than other suicide bombers? The Tamil Tigers, already mentioned, are feeling hurt.

Bullshit lobbed right over the net!!!

Let's not forget Christofascist anti-abortion terrorist murderer Scott Roeder.

602 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:15:42pm

re: #586 Walter L. Newton

I don't like fucking fedora's... so... what are you going to do about it?

Argue about it with you for forty minutes. After which I will realize that the fedora was really a trillby all along.

603 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:16:03pm

re: #596 elbruce

Oh no, I'm definitely against Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers.
Acutally, I'm against all Islamofascist terrorist bombers.

Good.

604 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:17:43pm

re: #593 elbruce

Wow, it sounds like it would be really easy of you to give me a list of news stories about suicide bombings that have been committed by children then, huh?

I don't see any of those at the link you provided.

Here's one. There are plenty more to find. Try this website to find more.

(WOW...I can't believe this idiot never heard of this. )

Suicide Bombers' Mother Elected to Palestinian Parliament

Mariam Farahat, who was elected to the Palestinian parliament, can work a crowd like a veteran politician -- shaking hands and greeting supporters. When she gets on the stage at a Hamas rally, she is the star attraction. She was one of Hamas' most popular candidates in Wednesday's election.

In Gaza, Farahat is known as Um Nidal, or Mother of the Struggle -- a mother who sent three of her six sons on Hamas suicide missions against Israeli targets.

"We consider it holy duty," she told ABC News. "Our land is occupied. You take all the means to banish the occupier. I sacrificed my children for this holy, patriotic duty. I love my children, but as Muslims we pressure ourselves and sacrifice our emotions for the interest of the homeland. The greater interest takes precedence to the personal interest."

She is most famous for her presence in a Hamas video, showing her 17-year-old how to attack Israelis and telling him not to return. Shortly afterward, he killed five students in a Jewish settlement before he was killed himself.

Um Nidal's home has become a shrine to her dead sons, with admirers and other members of Hamas often dropping by.

...Um Nidal is now a politician, but she says violence is still an option. And she does have three sons who are still alive. If necessary, she says, they will follow in their brothers' footsteps.

605 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:17:57pm

re: #598 kamala

Your proof is a link to your blog?
Hmmm, I detect conflict of interest...

606 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:18:16pm

re: #599 goddamnedfrank

I know a marine who was in Viet Nam who spent many years in therapy due to being given an order to shoot every child who came too close to their position because one had once gotten through with a claymore mine strapped to his belly.

Well, if the kid wasn't an Islamofascist then Spare O'Lake says that doesn't count.

607 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:18:39pm

re: #599 goddamnedfrank

I know a marine who was in Viet Nam who spent many years in therapy due to being given an order to shoot every child who came too close to their position because one had once gotten through with a claymore mine strapped to his belly.

Probably not a Muslim, one mutters, feeling once again uneasy about being associated with the human race.

608 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:18:53pm

re: #601 Varek Raith

Let's not forget Christofascist anti-abortion terrorist murderer Scott Roeder.

Not a suicide bomber.

609 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:19:17pm

re: #597 SanFranciscoZionist

So Islamofascist suicide bombers are worse than other suicide bombers? The Tamil Tigers, already mentioned, are feeling hurt.

Bullshit lobbed right over the net!!!

The perversion of Islam by their violent lunatics is particularly problematic at this time for America.

610 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:19:17pm

re: #608 SanFranciscoZionist

Not a suicide bomber.

Oh, bugger, you're right.
Nevermind.
;)

611 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:20:52pm

re: #603 Spare O'Lake

Oh no, I'm definitely against Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers.

Acutally, I'm against all Islamofascist terrorist bombers.

Good.

Then I said...

In fact, I'm against all terrorist bombers.

For that matter, I'm against all terrorists.

Why did you stop there? Are you OK with terrorist bombers and terrorist in general provide they're not "Islamofascists?"

612 kamala  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:22:13pm

re: #605 Varek Raith

Your proof is a link to your blog?
Hmmm, I detect conflict of interest...

Read the book review. See if you agree.

613 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:22:44pm

My rageboner is more fully erect than your rageboner.

614 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:23:28pm

re: #599 goddamnedfrank

I know a marine who was in Viet Nam who spent many years in therapy due to being given an order to shoot every child who came too close to their position because one had once gotten through with a claymore mine strapped to his belly.

re: #606 elbruce

re: #607 SanFranciscoZionist

We were discussing suicide bombers. Do you feel good about moving the goalposts to non-suicide bombers?

615 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:24:20pm

Hey Spare O'Lake, if an Islamofascist kills a bunch of civilians with a bomb and doesn't kill himself at the same time, is that bad? I'm trying to figure out whether the "Islamofascist" part counts more or less than the "suicide" part.

Since you apparently don't give a fuck about the "terrorist" or "bomber" part.

616 tnguitarist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:24:58pm

re: #598 kamala

Reza Aslan?!

That guy is a liar. And a supporter of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Muslim Brotherhood.

See: [Link: revuse.wetpaint.com...]

Looks like you're awfully scared about the number of Muslims in this country.

617 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:26:18pm

re: #615 elbruce

Hey Spare O'Lake, if an Islamofascist kills a bunch of civilians with a bomb and doesn't kill himself at the same time, is that bad? I'm trying to figure out whether the "Islamofascist" part counts more or less than the "suicide" part.

Since you apparently don't give a fuck about the "terrorist" or "bomber" part.

FUCK YOU!
I'm a Semantofascist F-bomber!!!
/

618 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:26:20pm

re: #611 elbruce

Good.


Then I said...


Why did you stop there? Are you OK with terrorist bombers and terrorist in general provide they're not "Islamofascists?"

I stopped there because the reason I engaged you was to try to stop you from giving cover to those pricks...and you satisfied me.
Your subsequent question is impertinent, rhetorical and unworthy of reply.

619 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:26:40pm

re: #614 Spare O'Lake

We were discussing suicide bombers. Do you feel good about moving the goalposts to non-suicide bombers?

We were discussing suicide bombers. You only want to talk about Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers. That narrows the scope considerably.

620 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:26:47pm

re: #616 tnguitarist

Looks like you're awfully scared about the number of Muslims in this country.

Supporter of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Muslim Brotherhood in this country doesn't bother you?

621 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:27:17pm

re: #604 NJDhockeyfan

Here's one. There are plenty more to find. Try this website to find more.

(WOW...I can't believe this idiot never heard of this. )

Suicide Bombers' Mother Elected to Palestinian Parliament

Uh, the only age we have here is 17, which is is far too young to be blowing oneself up, but isn't the image created by the expression 'child suicide bombing'.

Now, there are examples of suicide bombers younger than this. But by and large, teens, not young children.

622 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:27:31pm

re: #615 elbruce

Hey Spare O'Lake, if an Islamofascist kills a bunch of civilians with a bomb and doesn't kill himself at the same time, is that bad? I'm trying to figure out whether the "Islamofascist" part counts more or less than the "suicide" part.

Since you apparently don't give a fuck about the "terrorist" or "bomber" part.

Your concern is noted. Run along now, troll.

623 Nimed  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:27:51pm

re: #600 sagehen

Im'a slap you, because Neal Caffrey looks very very fine in his fedora. Everybody should wear fedoras. All the time.

Maybe Walter likes to wear fedoras, just not fucking them. Though it's strange he felt the need to share.

624 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:28:19pm

Ok... SP3 installed... now of course, since it's like about 3 years since service pack 3 was released, now Windoze is download, oh, I suspect, about 3 years worth of updates to SP3, to fix whatever was wrong with SP3... gosh... and I thought Oracle's upgrade/patch cycles were overbearing...

So... sometime tonight, all this should be done, and by that time, the sun will probably be coming up. Thank goodness I'm on my two days off right now...

Anyone want to fight about hats?

625 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:28:27pm

re: #609 Spare O'Lake

The perversion of Islam by their violent lunatics is particularly problematic at this time for America.

Sure is. But that doesn't make them actually worse than people who are or were other people's problem.

626 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:28:47pm

This is the dumbest argument I have yet had the pleasure of witnessing on LGF.

I submit for your consideration that the boogeyman under my bed is far scarier and more boogeyish than the boogeyman under your bed.

627 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:29:31pm

Terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist etc.

628 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:29:50pm

re: #614 Spare O'Lake

re: #606 elbruce

re: #607 SanFranciscoZionist

We were discussing suicide bombers. Do you feel good about moving the goalposts to non-suicide bombers?

Uh, read the description. Is that not a suicide bomber?

629 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:29:57pm

Walter, do we need to hear about your relationships with fedoras?

630 tnguitarist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:29:58pm

re: #620 NJDhockeyfan

Supporter of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Muslim Brotherhood in this country doesn't bother you?

Are you saying all Muslims support those things. Is this where I'm supposed to run around screaming and scared?

Seriously, when did we become such bed-wetters?

631 sagehen  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:30:07pm

re: #626 Fozzie Bear

This is the dumbest argument I have yet had the pleasure of witnessing on LGF.

I submit for your consideration that the boogeyman under my bed is far scarier and more boogeyish than the boogeyman under your bed.

That's not possible. Because if it's not about me, it doesn't count. QED.

632 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:30:14pm

re: #618 Spare O'Lake

I stopped there because the reason I engaged you was to try to stop you from giving cover to those pricks...and you satisfied me.

Here's my position: if some asshole fuck sets off a bomb to kill a bunch of civilians for some stupid political and/or religious reason, then I'm not going to care what his politics or his religion was, he's an asshole fuck. And if he kills himself while he's doing it, then I say "good."

It's not that I'm giving cover to Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers. It's that by insisting on using all of those words in a string every time, you actually are giving cover to all other terrorists.

633 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:30:24pm

re: #626 Fozzie Bear

This is the dumbest argument I have yet had the pleasure of witnessing on LGF.

I submit for your consideration that the boogeyman under my bed is far scarier and more boogeyish than the boogeyman under your bed.

I don't think so... first off... mine looks like Pam Geller... wait, it is Pam Geller... ok, mine is not only scarier... it's alive... and trying to suck my toes.

634 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:30:34pm

re: #594 SanFranciscoZionist

Poor child. I hope he ended up someplace safe.

I was wrong, he wasn't 10, he was 6!

Taliban tricked me into wearing bomb, boy says

FORWARD OPERATING BASE THUNDER, Afghanistan — The story of a 6-year-old Afghan boy who says he thwarted an effort by Taliban militants to trick him into being a suicide bomber provoked tears and anger at a meeting of tribal leaders.

The account from Juma Gul, a dirt-caked child who collects scrap metal for money, left American soldiers dumbfounded that a youngster could be sent on such a mission. Afghan troops crowded around the boy to call him a hero.

Though the Taliban dismissed the story as propaganda, at a time when U.S. and NATO forces are under increasing criticism over civilian casualties, both Afghan tribal elders and U.S. military officers said they were convinced by his dramatic account.

Juma said that sometime last month Taliban fighters forced him to wear a vest they said would spray out flowers when he touched a button. He said they told him that when he saw American soldiers, "throw your body at them."

The militants allegedly cornered Juma in a Taliban-controlled district in southern Afghanistan's Ghazni province. Their target was an impoverished youngster being raised by an older sister — but also one who proved too street-smart for their plan.

"When they first put the vest on my body I didn't know what to think, but then I felt the bomb," Juma told The Associated Press as he ate lamb and rice after being introduced to the elders at this joint U.S.-Afghan base in Ghazni. "After I figured out it was a bomb, I went to the Afghan soldiers for help."

635 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:30:35pm

re: #612 kamala

A member of the LGF Class of 2004 with 308 comments and a karma of -319...you also had a little crusade going over on this thread a week-and-a-half ago, trying to convince us the bigots and xenophobes trying to stop the Cordoba House/Park51 project are somehow justified.

/color me skeptical if I don't take your claims at face value...

636 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:31:56pm

Good night lizards, and
Remember what the doormouse said.

637 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:32:12pm

re: #614 Spare O'Lake

re: #606 elbruce

re: #607 SanFranciscoZionist

We were discussing suicide bombers. Do you feel good about moving the goalposts to non-suicide bombers?

We're actually discussing your ridiculous intolerance of Islam, and why that religion's assholes specifically are "worthy of being contrasted with and set apart from the rest of humanity." Why do you only dehumanize them?

638 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:32:13pm

re: #629 JasonA

Walter, do we need to hear about your relationships with fedoras?

You want I put up the pic of me in the fedora?

639 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:32:38pm

re: #634 NJDhockeyfan

I was wrong, he wasn't 10, he was 6!

Taliban tricked me into wearing bomb, boy says

Poor kid. Apparently, that was too much, even for Afghanistan.

640 sagehen  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:32:52pm

re: #638 Walter L. Newton

You want I put up the pic of me in the fedora?

Only if you look as good as Neal Caffrey.

641 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:32:58pm

re: #621 SanFranciscoZionist

Uh, the only age we have here is 17, which is is far too young to be blowing oneself up, but isn't the image created by the expression 'child suicide bombing'.

Now, there are examples of suicide bombers younger than this. But by and large, teens, not young children.

See my #634. Six years old!

642 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:33:26pm

re: #641 NJDhockeyfan

See my #634. Six years old!

Holy shit.

643 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:35:28pm

re: #640 sagehen

Only if you look as good as Neal Caffrey.

Image: me1.jpg

644 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:35:46pm

re: #641 NJDhockeyfan

See my #634. Six years old!

Yeah, I see it, but that's anomalous.

That doesn't make it less evil. That doesn't make it less horrifying.

But it is unusual.

Given that it is very unusual, and I have never heard of such an incident involving a very young child before, don't you think that acting as though this is a common thing that everyone knows about, and calling people idiots for not knowing about it, is a teeny bit extreme?

Your average suicide bomber is a boy in his late teens or early twenties. There are all kinds of exceptions, but that's the norm.

645 sagehen  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:36:08pm

re: #643 Walter L. Newton

Image: me1.jpg

that's not a fedora.

646 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:36:35pm

re: #643 Walter L. Newton

Image: me1.jpg

Don't you look even better now, now you've lost all that weight?

647 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:36:39pm

re: #598 kamala

Reza Aslan?!

That guy is a liar. And a supporter of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Muslim Brotherhood.

See: [Link: revuse.wetpaint.com...]

Let's see... here's the quote from his book that you cite.

... while Islamist groups like the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, and Hizballah work to address ... socioeconomic needs, populations throughout the region will continue to throw their support behind the Islamists--as well they should. (p. 166, emphasis added)


So that means he supports those groups? I don't have a copy of the book; what did he say right before, after and in the ellipses of that part? I'd need to check to be able to make a decision.

648 tnguitarist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:36:57pm

re: #645 sagehen

that's not a fedora.

Beat me to it.

649 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:36:59pm

re: #643 Walter L. Newton

Image: me1.jpg

"I'm going to make you an offer you can't refuse."
/

650 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:37:04pm

re: #645 sagehen

that's not a fedora.

What is it?

651 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:37:40pm

3 seconds later, Walter bit the cameraman, severing his carotid artery.

652 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:37:53pm

re: #649 Varek Raith

"I'm going to make you an offer you can't refuse."
/

Take the cannoli...

653 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:38:02pm

re: #644 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, I see it, but that's anomalous.

That doesn't make it less evil. That doesn't make it less horrifying.

But it is unusual.

Given that it is very unusual, and I have never heard of such an incident involving a very young child before, don't you think that acting as though this is a common thing that everyone knows about, and calling people idiots for not knowing about it, is a teeny bit extreme?

Your average suicide bomber is a boy in his late teens or early twenties. There are all kinds of exceptions, but that's the norm.

I read about handicapped kids getting blown up at polling stations in Iraq and the Taliban paying $10,000 - $12,000 per kid that are donated to them by their own families a few years ago as well. These stories aren't hard to find.

654 tnguitarist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:38:34pm

re: #650 Walter L. Newton

What is it?

Fedora

655 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:38:55pm

re: #650 Walter L. Newton

What is it?

Looks like a bowler to me...

656 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:39:00pm

re: #650 Walter L. Newton

What is it?

Derby.

657 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:39:18pm

re: #646 talon_262

Don't you look even better now, now you've lost all that weight?

Better? Relative... I can't get that "Orson Wells" look again, like in that pic, if I wanted to... that pick is a head shot from a show... I really liked that look, but with the weight loss, I couldn't physically fit that kind of character anymore. So, it's a toss up... of course, the weight loss is more important than roles... I can always adapt to the kind of parts I play.

658 kamala  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:39:20pm

re: #635 talon_262

A member of the LGF Class of 2004 with 308 comments and a karma of -319...you also had a little crusade going over on this thread a week-and-a-half ago, trying to convince us the bigots and xenophobes trying to stop the Cordoba House/Park51 project are somehow justified.

/color me skeptical if I don't take your claims at face value...

Read the book review. And then go read his book if you think I'm making it up. Aslan is a liar and an Islamist.

659 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:40:16pm

Ok guys you are almost there. Now, somebody needs to start hurling around insults about how so-and-so doesn't know a fucking thing about hats, and he probably does naughty things to goats.

660 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:40:24pm

re: #653 NJDhockeyfan

I read about handicapped kids getting blown up at polling stations in Iraq and the Taliban paying $10,000 - $12,000 per kid that are donated to them by their own families a few years ago as well. These stories aren't hard to find.

OK.

661 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:40:54pm

re: #655 talon_262

Looks like a bowler to me...

re: #656 elbruce

I don't pay attention... I just wear what the costumer comes up with. Yea... I think bowler is correct... that's Mr. Paravicinni from "The Mousetrap."

662 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:41:00pm

re: #659 Fozzie Bear

Ok guys you are almost there. Now, somebody needs to start hurling around insults about how so-and-so doesn't know a fucking thing about hats, and he probably does naughty things to goats.

"Pfffttt, nice hat, Calamity Jane"
- Fallout 3

663 sagehen  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:41:37pm

re: #650 Walter L. Newton

What is it?

A bowler maybe? Or a Derby? Fedoras are pointier.

I've never posted an image here, but let's see if this works

[img][Link: images2.fanpop.com...]

664 tnguitarist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:41:44pm

re: #661 Walter L. Newton

It's still sweet.

665 tnguitarist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:42:09pm

re: #663 sagehen

fail.

666 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:43:39pm

Taliban buying children for suicide bombers


Pakistan's top Taliban leader, Baitullah Mehsud, is buying children as young as 7 to serve as suicide bombers in the growing spate of attacks against Pakistani, Afghan and U.S. targets, U.S. Defense Department and Pakistani officials say.

A Pakistani official, who spoke on the condition that he not be named because of the sensitive nature of the topic, said the going price for child bombers was $7,000 to $14,000 - huge sums in Pakistan, where per-capita income is about $2,600 a year.

"[Mehsud] has turned suicide bombing into a production output, not unlike [the way] Toyota outputs cars," a U.S. Defense Department official told reporters recently. He spoke on the condition that he not be named because of ongoing intelligence efforts to catch Mehsud, a prime target for a U.S. and Pakistani anti-Taliban campaign.

An apparent U.S. effort to kill Mehsud last week failed. On Sunday, the Pakistani government offered a reward of about $615,300 for information leading to the capture of Mehsud, dead or alive. The U.S. State Department has offered a bounty of $5 million for Mehsud, who is thought to be hiding in the tribal areas near the Afghan border.

667 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:44:05pm

INVADE PAKISTAN NOW! /

668 sagehen  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:44:47pm

try again.

Image: Neal-Caffrey-neal-caffrey-9688756-350-449.jpg

669 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:46:04pm

Alright it's bed time. I'm starting to fade.

Gnight all, don't strangle each other in a semantic rage leaving a tangled pile of angry corpses atop a copy of Webster's.

670 boredtechindenver  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:46:48pm

re: #659 Fozzie Bear

Ok guys you are almost there. Now, somebody needs to start hurling around insults about how so-and-so doesn't know a fucking thing about hats, and he probably does naughty things to goats.

Walter is Mickey Kaus????eleventy???

///

671 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:47:12pm

re: #669 Fozzie Bear

Alright it's bed time. I'm starting to fade.

Gnight all, don't strangle each other in a semantic rage leaving a tangled pile of angry corpses atop a copy of Webster's.

Three blind mice, three blind mice, see how they run, see how they run...

672 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:48:03pm

Read enough yet elbruce or still not believing it yet? Here's another story of what these sick twisted Islamic terrorist cocksuckers do...

Minister: Suicide bomber a handicapped child

BAGHDAD, Iraq — Iraq’s interior minister said Monday that insurgents used a handicapped child as one of the suicide bombers who launched attacks on election day.

Falah al-Naqib told reporters in Baghdad that 38 attacks were carried out on polling stations in Iraq on Sunday and that one of the suicide bombings was carried out by a disabled child.

“A handicapped child was used to carry out a suicide attack on a polling site,” al-Naqib said. “This is an indication of what horrific actions they are carrying out.”

He gave no other details about the attack, but police at the scene of one the Baghdad blasts said the bomber appeared to have Down Syndrome.

Al-Naqib praised an Iraqi citizen who was killed while blocking one suicide bomber from reaching a crowd of people outside at polling station.

673 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:48:13pm

OK, so, folks, tell me, what exactly is the argument in this thread, anyway? Excluding issues with fedoras and Reza Aslan.

674 sagehen  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:48:47pm

I posted a picture! it worked.

Now I'm going to try to post an mp3

MP3 Audio
675 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:48:54pm

re: #673 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, so, folks, tell me, what exactly is the argument in this thread, anyway? Excluding issues with fedoras and Reza Aslan.

Semantics.
I thinks.
???

676 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:49:00pm

re: #672 NJDhockeyfan

Read enough yet elbruce or still not believing it yet? Here's another story of what these sick twisted Islamic terrorist cocksuckers do...

Minister: Suicide bomber a handicapped child

OK, now you're talking as though he's been defending terrorists. What did I miss?

677 tnguitarist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:49:47pm

re: #673 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, so, folks, tell me, what exactly is the argument in this thread, anyway? Excluding issues with fedoras and Reza Aslan.

Um, hello? I thought we decided it was a derby!//

678 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:50:11pm

I'm going to bed... I'm going to let these SP3 updates install on their own and then reboot in the AM... getting chilly in here... 49 degrees (f) already... should be comfy under the blankets tonight...

... in bed!

679 kamala  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:51:18pm

re: #647 elbruce

Let's see... here's the quote from his book that you cite.


So that means he supports those groups? I don't have a copy of the book; what did he say right before, after and in the ellipses of that part? I'd need to check to be able to make a decision.

If you read the review, and the book, you'll see that repeatedly espouses that the West should support Islamists. The full quote is here:

Undoubtedly, some of the governments that will arise from truly democratic elections in the Middle East may hold views and pursue policies that are contrary to the interests of the United States. But so long as the ruling regimes in these countries ignore the demands of their people (with the tacit approval of the United States) while Islamist groups like the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, and Hizballah work to address their socioeconomic needs, populations throughout the region will continue to throw their support behind the Islamists -- as well they should. It is a political truism that when it comes to elections, he who cleans the streets gets the votes.

But hey, he's critical of Pam Geller, so Aslan must be a great guy!

680 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:51:41pm

re: #673 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, so, folks, tell me, what exactly is the argument in this thread, anyway? Excluding issues with fedoras and Reza Aslan.

1. Windows, Macintosh and/or Linux sucks, for (insert reason here)

2. Saying "Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers" over and over again lets a lot of other terrorists off the hook.

681 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:52:33pm

re: #672 NJDhockeyfan

Read enough yet elbruce or still not believing it yet?

I didn't actively disbelieve you at all, I just wanted to find some links to read about it. Thanks for hunting 'em down.

682 tnguitarist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:52:36pm

Why haven't these painkillers knocked me out yet? That's what we should really be discussing.

683 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:53:16pm

re: #682 tnguitarist

Why haven't these painkillers knocked me out yet? That's what we should really be discussing.

Head+Desk+Impact=Sleep.

684 tnguitarist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:54:02pm

re: #683 Varek Raith

Head+Desk+Impact=Sleep.

Duly noted.

685 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:55:20pm

re: #679 kamala

If you read the review, and the book, you'll see that repeatedly espouses that the West should support Islamists. The full quote is here:

But hey, he's critical of Pam Geller, so Aslan must be a great guy!

Uh, that quote, to my mind, suggests that the US needs to pay attention to the fact that these groups have gained popular support by providing social services, while the leadership backed by the US often has not. This is, at least to some extent, true, or perceived to be true, and a significant factor for Western nations to consider when offering support and funds, as well as courting hearts and minds.

Do you disagree?

686 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:55:34pm

re: #680 elbruce

1. Windows, Macintosh and/or Linux sucks, for (insert reason here)

2. Saying "Islamofascist terrorist suicide bombers" over and over again lets a lot of other terrorists off the hook.

OK.

687 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:55:47pm

re: #676 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, now you're talking as though he's been defending terrorists. What did I miss?

No, he said he never heard of child suicide bombers. I want make sure he gets enough information. He asked for me to post these stories so I'm helping him out.

Here's another one...

Taliban rebuild children’s suicide camp in South Waziristan


The Taliban have rebuilt a camp in South Waziristan that trains children to be suicide bombers, a video from Pakistan shows. Children as young as seven years old are indoctrinated to wage jihad in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

The video, obtained by AfPax Insider, was shot in August in Spinkai Ragzai, South Waziristan, a tribal area run by Pakistani Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud. The Taliban are seen "training dozens of boys ranging in age from seven to 14," the news service reported. "The video attempts to justify suicide bombings as a legitimate means of attack against "infidels.'"

The images shows the children reading from the Quran and an adult Taliban training the children. One slide shows a poster board with the words “Killing a Spy” written in English.

While not explicitly stated in the AfPax Insider report, the camp is run by Qari Hussain, a senior lieutenant to Baitullah who has close links to al Qaeda. Hussain has rebuilt his child training camp after the Pakistani military demolished his suicide nursery during a short offensive in Spinkai in January 2008.

...The computers, other equipment and literature seized from the place ... give graphic details of the training process in this so-called ‘nursery,’" Dawn reported in May. "There are videos of young boys carrying out executions, a classroom where 10- to 12-year olds are sitting in formations, with white band of Quranic verses wrapped around their forehead, and there are training videos to show how improvised explosive devices are made and detonated."

...The Spinkai camp is one of 157 training camps and more than 400 support locations in the Taliban-controled tribal areas and in the Northwest Frontier Province.

688 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:56:37pm

re: #687 NJDhockeyfan

No, he said he never heard of child suicide bombers. I want make sure he gets enough information. He asked for me to post these stories so I'm helping him out.

Here's another one...

Taliban rebuild children’s suicide camp in South Waziristan

OK, and he and I thank you, but you did call him an idiot.

689 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:56:49pm

re: #685 SanFranciscoZionist

Uh, that quote, to my mind, suggests that the US needs to pay attention to the fact that these groups have gained popular support by providing social services, while the leadership backed by the US often has not. This is, at least to some extent, true, or perceived to be true, and a significant factor for Western nations to consider when offering support and funds, as well as courting hearts and minds.

Do you disagree?

That's exactly how I read it.

690 boredtechindenver  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:57:02pm

well, you may have missed Bourdain going back to Beirut. Not as good as last week, where he went to Rome, or the first Beirut show. But good.

691 sagehen  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:57:03pm

re: #679 kamala

If you read the review, and the book, you'll see that repeatedly espouses that the West should support Islamists. The full quote is here:

But hey, he's critical of Pam Geller, so Aslan must be a great guy!

"But so long as the ruling regimes in these countries ignore the demands of their people (with the tacit approval of the United States) while Islamist groups like the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, and Hizballah work to address their socioeconomic needs, populations throughout the region will continue to throw their support behind the Islamists -- as well they should. It is a political truism that when it comes to elections, he who cleans the streets gets the votes."

He's not saying the West should support Islamists; he's saying it's to be expected that the local people who get their municipal services from those groups will support them.

And without reading the whole book (because, among other reasons, I don't have it here and don't care enough to track it down and read the whole thing) -- I'm going to presume that his advice is the United States should pressure the ruling regimes in those countries to provide better services and not leave an opening for the Islamists to win hearts and minds.

692 elbruce  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:57:41pm

re: #679 kamala

If you read the review, and the book, you'll see that repeatedly espouses that the West should support Islamists. The full quote is here:

Undoubtedly, some of the governments that will arise from truly democratic elections in the Middle East may hold views and pursue policies that are contrary to the interests of the United States. But so long as the ruling regimes in these countries ignore the demands of their people (with the tacit approval of the United States) while Islamist groups like the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, and Hizballah work to address their socioeconomic needs, populations throughout the region will continue to throw their support behind the Islamists -- as well they should. It is a political truism that when it comes to elections, he who cleans the streets gets the votes.

But hey, he's critical of Pam Geller, so Aslan must be a great guy!

He's saying that electorates vote in their own local interest. That's all he's saying there. How do you disagree with that?

I know you'd like it if the Palestinians just asked the U.S. State Department who they should vote for and did that, but I don't think it's "Islamist" to vote for the people who are taking care of basic local governmental needs when it comes time to vote for who should take care of basic local governmental needs.

Now, Palestinians voting for Hamas is a bad thing, I'm not saying otherwise. It monkey-wrenched the hell out of the peace process. But just blaming the Palestinian voters for doing it doesn't solve the issue. Nor does it do any good to call someone an "Islamist" just for pointing that out

693 tnguitarist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:57:54pm

re: #690 boredtechindenver

well, you may have missed Bourdain going back to Beirut. Not as good as last week, where he went to Rome, or the first Beirut show. But good.

The first time he went there, was that the episode that got a little hairy?

694 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:58:30pm

re: #693 tnguitarist

The first time he went there, was that the episode that got a little hairy?

I understand they still have great restaurants in Beirut.

695 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:58:46pm

re: #690 boredtechindenver

well, you may have missed Bourdain going back to Beirut. Not as good as last week, where he went to Rome, or the first Beirut show. But good.

Andrew Bourdain is awesome! I just discovered his show a few weeks ago. I can totally relate to him. His kitchens sound like some of the ones I cooked in.

696 tnguitarist  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:58:50pm

re: #692 elbruce

In other words: All politics is local.

697 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:59:01pm

re: #694 SanFranciscoZionist

I understand they still have great restaurants in Beirut.

ISLAMIST!!!

698 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:59:14pm

re: #679 kamala

If you read the review, and the book, you'll see that repeatedly espouses that the West should support Islamists. The full quote is here:

But hey, he's critical of Pam Geller, so Aslan must be a great guy!

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Aslan is a huge Hezb/Hamas/MB booster...aside from the fact that DHS should be watching him like a hawk, does that automatically invalidate what he said in that All Things Considered piece, if the facts are correct?

He might be a piece of terrorist-sympathizer shit (which is what you're inferring), but even a broken clock is right twice a day...

699 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 11:59:23pm

re: #695 NJDhockeyfan

Andrew Anthony Bourdain is awesome! I just discovered his show a few weeks ago. I can totally relate to him. His kitchens sound like some of the ones I cooked in.

PIMF

700 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:00:21am

re: #693 tnguitarist

The first time he went there, was that the episode that got a little hairy?

I think he won an Emmy for that one. I haven't scene it yet but they had to leave in a hurry.

701 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:00:27am

re: #697 Varek Raith

ISLAMIST!!!

CHRISTIAN-OWNED restaurants in Beirut I should have said.

Like those Ethiopian restaurants sallieparker was so kind as to go to on 9/11.

702 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:00:34am

re: #695 NJDhockeyfan

Andrew Bourdain is awesome! I just discovered his show a few weeks ago. I can totally relate to him. His kitchens sound like some of the ones I cooked in.

Uh, you're mixing your Travel Network hosts...it's Anthony Boudain (No Reservations) and Andrew Zimmern (Bizarre Foods).

;-P

703 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:01:05am

re: #702 talon_262

Uh, you're mixing your Travel Network hosts...it's Anthony Boudain (No Reservations) and Andrew Zimmern (Bizarre Foods).

;-P

Dammit, it's Bourdain...

704 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:01:24am

re: #701 SanFranciscoZionist

CHRISTIAN-OWNED restaurants in Beirut I should have said.

Like those Ethiopian restaurants sallieparker was so kind as to go to on 9/11.

...uh...
...
Damn you, Jedi.
:P

705 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:02:07am

re: #703 talon_262

Dammit, it's Bourdain...

HEIL SPELLCHECK!!!

706 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:02:28am

re: #702 talon_262

Uh, you're mixing your Travel Network hosts...it's Anthony Boudain (No Reservations) and Andrew Zimmern (Bizarre Foods).

;-P

I know. Oops! I pissed my pants laughing so hard when I saw his massage in the Uzbekistan episode.

707 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:04:48am

re: #700 NJDhockeyfan

I think he won an Emmy for that one. I haven't scene it yet but they had to leave in a hurry.

Evacuated on my city's namesake, the USS Nashville (now decommissioned), because of the fighting between Hezbollah and Lebanese forces back in 2006...

708 tnguitarist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:04:58am

re: #706 NJDhockeyfan

I know. Oops! I pissed my pants laughing so hard when I saw his massage in the Uzbekistan episode.

In fairness, they did do a few shows together.

709 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:05:09am

Hmmm....
[Link: www.nhc.noaa.gov...]
Got to watch this one, I do.

710 tnguitarist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:05:31am

re: #707 talon_262

Evacuated on my city's namesake, the USS Nashville (now decommissioned), because of the fighting between Hezbollah and Lebanese forces back in 2006...

You're in my neck of the woods.

711 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:05:56am

re: #707 talon_262

Whoops, meant "because of the fighting between Hezbollah and Israeli forces in Lebanon in 2006"

712 sagehen  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:05:56am

re: #698 talon_262

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Aslan is a huge Hezb/Hamas/MB booster...aside from the fact that DHS should be watching him like a hawk, does that automatically invalidate what he said in that All Things Considered piece, if the facts are correct?

He might be a piece of terrorist-sympathizer shit (which is what you're inferring), but even a broken clock is right twice a day...

I know Al Jazeera ran a lot of very complimentary stories about our response to the tsunami, and most of the America-haters STFU for awhile with their complaints.

We could be winning a lot of friends right now if we were doing better in regards to the Pakistani floods. Our charitable donations (private) for that have been less than 5% of what we gave for either Indonesia-tsunami or Haiti-earthquake. And our gov't assistance has been similarly paltry -- I sure hope we pick it up; the dead livestock and flooded cropland means they'll need a full year of help.

713 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:06:41am

re: #688 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, and he and I thank you, but you did call him an idiot.

He'll get over it.

Here's one more before I go to bed...

Horrific video of a child sending her suicide bomber mother to her death

Palestinian TV is showing a music video in which a four-year-old girl sings the praises of her suicide bomber mother and vows to follow in her footsteps.

The little girl grasps a stick of dynamite from a drawer in her mother's dressing-table and says: "I will follow Mummy".

The shocking footage is being aired repeatedly on Al-Aqsa TV, the official station of the new Palestinian unity government headed by prime minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas, which seeks the destruction of Israel.

The video is shown between programmes without any accompanying commentary.

It shows a child actress playing four-year-old Duha Riyashi singing to her mother, Reem, as she prepares for a suicide bombing.

Reem Riyashi, a 22-year-old mother of two from Gaza, blew herself up at the entrance to a joint Israeli-Palestinian industrial zone in January 2004, killing four Israelis.

What a lovely bunch of people! Great family entertainment on TV there!

////

714 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:06:47am

Later gators!

715 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:07:40am

re: #710 tnguitarist

You're in my neck of the woods.

Oh yeah...saw in another thread a day or two where you're about an hour away. Whereabouts?

716 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:08:10am

re: #713 NJDhockeyfan

He'll get over it.

Here's one more before I go to bed...

Horrific video of a child sending her suicide bomber mother to her death

What a lovely bunch of people! Great family entertainment on TV there!

///

I remember that video.

717 tnguitarist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:08:24am

re: #715 talon_262

Oh yeah...saw in another thread a day or two where you're about an hour away. Whereabouts?

Tullahoma.

718 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:11:22am

re: #717 tnguitarist

Tullahoma.

Ahh...home of AEDC, Motlow State Community College, and George Dickel whiskey. Passed by there on I-24 to and from a backpacking trip down at Cohutta in the Cherokee National Forest down at the Georgia line about a month ago...

719 tnguitarist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:13:03am

re: #718 talon_262

Ahh...home of AEDC, Motlow State Community College, and George Dickel whiskey. Passed by there on I-24 to and from a backpacking trip down at Cohutta in the Cherokee National Forest down at the Georgia line about a month ago...

Dickel is meh. I'm a Jack Daniels guy. My FIL has worked there for 40 years.

720 boredtechindenver  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:13:58am

He did win an Emmy. He and his crew were evacuated, along with other Americans who were stuck there, by the USMC.

721 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:16:35am

re: #719 tnguitarist

Dickel is meh. I'm a Jack Daniels guy. My FIL has worked there for 40 years.

Good job, if you can get it, I suppose...

722 boredtechindenver  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:18:29am

For all you TN peoples, i spent 1984 and 1985 being housemates with the middle son of Coach Dickey. Many a drunk night at that house. That was the year his brother won MVP at the Sugar Bowl.

723 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:21:12am

re: #679 kamala

If you read the review, and the book, you'll see that repeatedly espouses that the West should support Islamists. The full quote is here:

But hey, he's critical of Pam Geller, so Aslan must be a great guy!

re: #658 kamala

Read the book review. And then go read his book if you think I'm making it up. Aslan is a liar and an Islamist.

You know what, I did read the book, so I'll just bold the part that you deceptively chose not to share with us:

But so long as the ruling regimes in these countries ignore the demands of their people (with the tacit approval of the United States) while Islamist groups like the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, and Hizballah work to address their socioeconomic needs, populations throughout the region will continue to throw their support behind the Islamists—as well they should. It is a political truism that when it comes to elections, he who cleans the streets gets the votes Rather than make it impossible for people to elect Islamists, perhaps we should give them reason not to.

The reason you stopped where you did is all too obvious.

re: #647 elbruce

Let's see... here's the quote from his book that you cite.

So that means he supports those groups? I don't have a copy of the book; what did he say right before, after and in the ellipses of that part? I'd need to check to be able to make a decision.

Very wise.

724 Nimed  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:21:32am

re: #679 kamala

If you read the review, and the book, you'll see that repeatedly espouses that the West should support Islamists. The full quote is here:

But hey, he's critical of Pam Geller, so Aslan must be a great guy!

Dude, that's one of the worst "damning" quotes I've ever read. I'm not a huge fan of Reza Aslam (who strikes me as a bit too flippant in some interviews). But you need to highlight what's so self-evidently wrong for you in that paragraph.

725 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:24:13am

re: #722 boredtechindenver

For all you TN peoples, i spent 1984 and 1985 being housemates with the middle son of Coach Dickey. Many a drunk night at that house. That was the year his brother won MVP at the Sugar Bowl.

Vol football's not really my thing (nor the rest of college football, for that matter), but I just happen to have a Coca-Cola 1984-85 Sugar Bowl commemorative bottle somewhere in storage that I snagged from a pallet of old, dusty bottles when I was a guard at the Nashville Coke plant almost 15 years ago. I wonder what that might be worth (it's empty)...

726 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:24:36am

re: #724 Nimed

Dude, that's one of the worst "damning" quotes I've ever read. I'm not a huge fan of Reza Aslam (who strikes me as a bit too flippant in some interviews). But you need to highlight what's so self-evidently wrong for you in that paragraph.

Oh, that's easy. For kamala, as for many of her ilk, mentioning that groups like Hezbollah and the Muslim Brotherhood have populist appeal is the same as endorsing their agenda.

727 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:26:05am

re: #723 goddamnedfrank

re: #658 kamala

You know what, I did read the book, so I'll just bold the part that you deceptively chose not to share with us:

The reason you stopped where you did is all too obvious.

Troll hammered...

728 tnguitarist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:26:56am

I'm going to have to get off here. This neck/back/shoulder pain is unbearable. It's hard to lay down and type.

729 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:27:56am

re: #728 tnguitarist

I'm going to have to get off here. This neck/back/shoulder pain is unbearable. It's hard to lay down and type.

Feel better soon.

730 tnguitarist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:30:00am

re: #729 SanFranciscoZionist

Feel better soon.

Thanks. 25 years of wearing a guitar is starting to take it's toll, especially on the left side.

731 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:33:01am

I don't know. This comes up a lot here, at times, this sense that you have to have these special, intense feelings about how Islamist terrorists are worse than any other thing the human race has ever had to deal with.

You know? They ain't. I mean, they suck, but they have no special, different evil to them, they're just regular evil, from a particular constellation of ideological and historical events and convergences. The Taliban are different from the guys who sacked Nanking, but I can't tell how you would be able to tell they were better or worse evil sonsabitches.

And when I say this, a certain group of people hereabouts gets mortally offended, and I'm still not totally sure why.

732 boredtechindenver  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:39:55am

re: #728 tnguitarist

I hope you feel better after a good night's sleep.

733 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:43:14am

re: #731 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know. This comes up a lot here, at times, this sense that you have to have these special, intense feelings about how Islamist terrorists are worse than any other thing the human race has ever had to deal with.

You know? They ain't. I mean, they suck, but they have no special, different evil to them, they're just regular evil, from a particular constellation of ideological and historical events and convergences. The Taliban are different from the guys who sacked Nanking, but I can't tell how you would be able to tell they were better or worse evil sonsabitches.

And when I say this, a certain group of people hereabouts gets mortally offended, and I'm still not totally sure why.

It's the new shibboleth, Islamofascist blah blah blah is the new worst thing ever, narrowly defeating cancer for the top position.

734 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:43:59am

re: #731 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know. This comes up a lot here, at times, this sense that you have to have these special, intense feelings about how Islamist terrorists are worse than any other thing the human race has ever had to deal with.

You know? They ain't. I mean, they suck, but they have no special, different evil to them, they're just regular evil, from a particular constellation of ideological and historical events and convergences. The Taliban are different from the guys who sacked Nanking, but I can't tell how you would be able to tell they were better or worse evil sonsabitches.

And when I say this, a certain group of people hereabouts gets mortally offended, and I'm still not totally sure why.

Oh, I agree: evil is evil. Nazis = Taliban = the Japanese military of WWII = Saddam and his boys = the Khmer Rouge (and on and on).

However, I'm just a little bit evil, the Diet Coke of evil, you might say:

Scott: [both are the Jerry Springer show] How could you do this to me? On national television!
Dr. Evil: Well throw me a freakin' bone here, Scott.
Scott: Why did you run out on me?
Dr. Evil: Because you're not quite evil enough.
[audience boos]
Dr. Evil: Well it's true! It's true! You're semi-evil. You're quasi-evil. You're the margarine of evil. You're the Diet Coke of evil. Just one calorie, not evil enough.

/just trying to lighten it up a bit...

735 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:03:22am

TPM has a series of pictures of Sunday's protest in NYC with one picture showing two of my favorite signs in the same shot: "EAT PRAY LOVE // NO PROBLEM, // JUST NOT iN THiS ZiP CODE!!" and "SOUTH CAROLINA SAYS, 'NO MOSQUE HERE!'"

In other news, Ex-Tea-Party-Express Mark Williams calls NYC Mayor Bloomberg a "Judenrat" (Wikipedia, Jewish Virtual Library, Yad Vashem).

736 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:06:54am

re: #735 000G

TPM has a series of pictures of Sunday's protest in NYC with one picture showing two of my favorite signs in the same shot: "EAT PRAY LOVE // NO PROBLEM, // JUST NOT iN THiS ZiP CODE!!" and "SOUTH CAROLINA SAYS, 'NO MOSQUE HERE!'"

In other news, Ex-Tea-Party-Express Mark Williams calls NYC Mayor Bloomberg a "Judenrat" (Wikipedia, Jewish Virtual Library, Yad Vashem).

Wow.

737 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:11:41am

re: #736 SanFranciscoZionist

Wow.

The whole nazi/holocaust comparison thing really got traction with Gingrich anyhow. During the protest on Sunday, you could see some signs making those kind of analogies.

738 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:11:49am

I kind of like the Eat Pray Love, except that, well...

739 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:15:35am

re: #737 000G

The whole nazi/holocaust comparison thing really got traction with Gingrich anyhow. During the protest on Sunday, you could see some signs making those kind of analogies.

There simply is no analogy. None.

740 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:17:39am

re: #738 SanFranciscoZionist

I kind of like the Eat Pray Love, except that, well...

You do not approve of the United States Postal Service being given authorities to overrule local zoning authorities as well as the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act?

741 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:22:38am

re: #739 SanFranciscoZionist

There simply is no analogy. None.

Well, call it equalization, then. But those signs were there. People made them. That does not mean they were valid or true. But they were there:

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

742 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:24:09am

re: #741 000G

Well, call it equalization, then. But those signs were there. People made them. That does not mean they were valid or true. But they were there:

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

Oh, I'm not doubting you in the slightest.

Just pushes my buttons on so many levels.

743 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 2:22:25am

re: #736 SanFranciscoZionist

Wow.

These people are so sick

744 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 2:24:51am

re: #731 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know. This comes up a lot here, at times, this sense that you have to have these special, intense feelings about how Islamist terrorists are worse than any other thing the human race has ever had to deal with.

You know? They ain't. I mean, they suck, but they have no special, different evil to them, they're just regular evil, from a particular constellation of ideological and historical events and convergences. The Taliban are different from the guys who sacked Nanking, but I can't tell how you would be able to tell they were better or worse evil sonsabitches.

And when I say this, a certain group of people hereabouts gets mortally offended, and I'm still not totally sure why.


Everyone wants to believe they're special, and you're showing them context

and they don't want context, they want to be special

745 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 2:42:50am

In the context of this bigotry and madness, I really miss my friend Charles Muscatine who passed away last year. He was a Berkeley professor, decorated WWII Navy veteran, and champion of freedom of speech.

He was fired from his job at Berkeley for not signing the 'loyalty oath' during the Red Scare. Among his awesome lines on the subject was "I already signed an oath to the US Navy."

I know some of you have seen this again, but since it's the overnight thread and I'm sad, I figured it was okay to post it again.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

[Link: www.trackedinamerica.org...]

I miss you, Charles. We need people like you. Badly.

746 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 3:18:35am

Summary:

Tea bag crazy......soccer hooligan tactics.......plenty of guns.......apathetic media......ineffectual opposition.

This is not going to end well.

747 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 4:18:50am

It has rained for 2 days now. I got a pizza delivered last night by canoe. Morning.

748 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 4:28:24am

Good Morning Lizards!

Today's Simpsons Quote:
Homer: “Relax. What is mind? No matter. What is matter? Never mind!”

749 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 4:30:32am

Brett Farve's first completion as a Packer. Heh.

Youtube Video
750 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 4:34:17am

Stupid job... it's mean. Won't let me hang today.

751 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 4:35:24am

This is awesome, just because the idiot is still alive.
[Link: www.wdtn.com...]

752 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 4:37:45am

re: #751 Cannadian Club Akbar

Great job of guardrail engineering there.

753 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 4:39:05am

re: #752 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Great job of guardrail engineering there.

And a little credit to the automotive engineer.

754 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 4:43:11am

We had 5 inches of rain yesterday. If I go blind I'll need a seeing eye Salmon.
/rimshot

755 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 4:51:30am

Sea World was fined 75K for safety violations. I remember my last job when a whale jumped on me.
[Link: www.cnn.com...]

756 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:04:53am

Here's an awesomely funny column on internet speak:

[Link: hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com...]

757 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:08:46am

re: #756 Obdicut

I knew a kid (I was a kid then as well) who could knock out about 45 WPM with 2 fingers.

758 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:09:40am

re: #756 Obdicut

I liked that alot.

759 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:10:52am

re:

760 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:11:19am

re: #759 Obdicut

si:

761 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:12:40am

Awe fuck. My radio is about to let the public speak. People are idiots.

762 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:16:57am

Stephen Fry on the joys of swearing

Youtube Video
763 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:18:22am

re: #760 Cannadian Club Akbar

I hate when I do that and don't notice and am off browsing elsewhere on the interwebs, confident my bon mot is making everyone laugh.

I hate that alot.

764 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:19:40am

re: #761 Cannadian Club Akbar

Awe fuck. My radio is about to let the public speak. People are idiots.

OMG. A guy in the town is saying he didn't get to vote today. He had no party affiliation, but you still have a right to vote. This guy is an idiot. Ever heard of a provisional ballot?

765 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:25:51am

re: #764 Cannadian Club Akbar

I should clarify. In Florida, if you vote Dem or Repub, you get those ballots. But they aren't the only ones out there.

766 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:27:13am

re: #751 Cannadian Club Akbar

This is awesome, just because the idiot is still alive.
[Link: www.wdtn.com...]

Still alive for now. I still have hope.

767 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:28:57am

re: #765 Cannadian Club Akbar

I should clarify. In Florida, if you vote Dem or Repub, you get those ballots. But they aren't the only ones out there.

In Indiana you have to declare R or D in the primary. If you choose neither then you get a ballot with just the local races like school board, etc.

768 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:29:59am

A guy just lied saying he voted for a republican gubner, a republican AG and an indy. Liar.

769 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:31:16am

I worked as a poll watcher in 2004. These people don't fool me.

770 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:31:23am

I know Gus was realy concerned about this guy:

Fed up, Lutz ends hunger strike
[Link: www.politico.com...]


After 11 days on a hunger strike, California Democratic congressional candidate Ray Lutz is throwing in the napkin.

He’s breaking the nearly two-week fast — begun Aug. 12 in an attempt to get his opponent, Republican Rep. Duncan Hunter, to agree to a series of debates — Monday afternoon at Pat & Oscar’s restaurant at the Parkway Plaza Mall in El Cajon, Calif.

771 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:32:04am

re: #769 Cannadian Club Akbar

I worked as a poll watcher in 2004. These people don't fool me.

I always figured you for a pole watcher.

772 garhighway  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:32:13am

re: #766 RogueOne

Still alive for now. I still have hope.

Usually, when someone is ejected from the vehicle their story does not have a happy ending.

773 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:32:50am

re: #771 RogueOne

I always figured you for a pole watcher.

Har!!

774 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:34:25am

re: #772 garhighway

Usually, when someone is ejected from the vehicle their story does not have a happy ending.

I'm not sure he was ejected or if the car just disintegrated around him. The happy ending as I see it is finding out he died without passing his idiot gene along. A true Darwin award.

775 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:36:15am

re: #763 Obdicut

I hate when I do that and don't notice and am off browsing elsewhere on the interwebs, confident my bon mot is making everyone laugh.

I hate that alot.

[Link: hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com...]

No choice in the matter; sorry. Sorta.

776 garhighway  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:40:30am

re: #774 RogueOne

I'm not sure he was ejected or if the car just disintegrated around him. The happy ending as I see it is finding out he died without passing his idiot gene along. A true Darwin award.

The article said he was ejected, but I get your point: the car damn near disintegrated.

I saw a clip of a Mercedes convertible on the autobahn (going 110 in the rain) flipping over. In slo-mo you could see the roll bar deploy as the car was flipping. The driver walked away.

777 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:40:36am

re: #775 negativ

Yes. That is the link I posted.

That is why I used 'alot'.

For, you know, the humors.

778 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:41:48am

I took drivers ed while stoned. Heh.
[Link: www.wishtv.com...]

779 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:46:45am

OK. So, I can get a free prostate exam and if I do, I get two tickets to a Rays game. Not sure that's fair.

780 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:47:08am

re: #776 garhighway

Modern vehicles are amazingly safe. Last year I was trailing a pickup headed into Colorado late at night when the driver fell asleep and hit a guardrail head on going almost 80mph. It flipped him end over end twice and he stopped with the truck sitting straight up and down like a jart. There were truck pieces all over the road, it even blew his tires off. I was in the middle of telling the 911 operator there was no way he was alive when he got out of his truck and was trying to get a wheel out of the middle of the road. He had a real minor cut on his head, that was it.

781 garhighway  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:50:40am

Last night on the Daily Show, Jon had a segment about how the Fox and Friends crew ran a whole piece about the funding for Park51 and how suspicious it was, particularly one foundation. They carefully avoided saying aloud the name of the foundation's source of funds, perhaps because it is the guy who is the second largest shareholder in News Corp.

The heart of the piece was a debate between two Daily Show correspondents, one representing Team Stupid and one representing Team Evil, trying to determine how Fox and Friends could do that whole piece without mentioning the guy's name and connection to Murdoch. I call it a draw.

It was priceless.

Whole show (It includes an interview with Blagojevich which is just strange. The mosque piece starts at about 1:30 in. You have to suffer through a Toshiba commercial to view it. Sorry. At least their model's cute.):

[Link: www.thedailyshow.com...]

782 garhighway  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:51:44am

re: #780 RogueOne

Modern vehicles are amazingly safe. Last year I was trailing a pickup headed into Colorado late at night when the driver fell asleep and hit a guardrail head on going almost 80mph. It flipped him end over end twice and he stopped with the truck sitting straight up and down like a jart. There were truck pieces all over the road, it even blew his tires off. I was in the middle of telling the 911 operator there was no way he was alive when he got out of his truck and was trying to get a wheel out of the middle of the road. He had a real minor cut on his head, that was it.

You are right. If the driver and passengers belt up, they usually do pretty well.

783 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 5:57:29am

OK. Nappy time.

784 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:00:05am

Work to do, enjoy your day

785 webevintage  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:18:58am

The windows in Russell Simmons apartment that overlook Ground Zero:
[Link: www.boingboing.net...]

786 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:19:47am

John Stewart bends FoxNews over and doesn't even use lube:

Comedy Central Video
787 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:20:18am

re: #779 Cannadian Club Akbar

OK. So, I can get a free prostate exam and if I do, I get two tickets to a Rays game. Not sure that's fair.

Ha. Spindled twice.

788 enoughalready  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:21:02am

Fascinating reading. It's impressive how short memories some people have. It has been conclusively proven that most of humanity have a very high potential for behaving monstrously given the right set of circumstances. (Want to argue? Argue with the Milgram experiments.) Whether we perceive that as evil or perceived helplessness does not matter, the end result is the same. The means are different depending on whether we are prison guards or prisoners, parts of a grand machine or of a small and (this is about perception) persecuted group.

Suicide bombings are not more monstrous than an IRA or an ETA bomb that killed innocents. The delivery mechanisms are just dependent on tradition and what happens to work. Tactics. Not strategy.

But the important part is this: every single day we make thousands of decisions. We should, regardless of whether we are christian, muslim, jew or (as I am) atheist, consider those decisions carefully. Because it is very easy to become a tool for evil and to accept, out of ignorance, fear or prejudice that some people are less than human and therefore can be treated inhumanely. If we regard all men as equal, if this is indeed an inevitable truth, then we must act accordingly and not try to redefine humanity based on some arbitrarily chosen criteria that suits our own xenophobic (because we are all xenophobic to some extent, it's right there in the core of who we are) world view. Whether it is the color of their skin, their religion (or lack thereof) or something else we have to face the fact that they are still human and nothing makes that change. Taken to it's logical conclusion it means that we need to accept that anyone can become a monster, a thing that goes bump in the night, and that the line that stands between humanity and genocide is a thin multicolored line of men and women avoiding to let themselves become tools of people who try to use fear as a way to reach power.

And so on.

I'm worried. That's all. Too many people have become insane lately and it reminds me of things that have happened in the not so distant past.

789 Lidane  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:22:03am

re: #780 RogueOne

Modern vehicles are amazingly safe.

Yes they are:

Youtube Video
790 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:28:12am

re: #785 webevintage

The windows in Russell Simmons apartment that overlook Ground Zero:
[Link: www.boingboing.net...]

lol Of Mosques and Men. heheh... that's pretty sweet, those windows.

791 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:30:08am

Uh oh, Rangel takes a swipe at the Prez...

Rangel on the Hot Seat in Debate

It was a gentle but unmistakable nudge President Obama gave Representative Charles B. Rangel recently, suggesting in an interview three weeks ago that Mr. Rangel, 80, should retire to “end his career with dignity.”

At a tense and sometimes fiery candidates’ forum Monday night, Mr. Rangel shot back that it was not his dignity the president should be worried about.

“Frankly, he has not been around long enough to determine what my dignity is,” Mr. Rangel said of the 49-year-old Mr. Obama. “For the next two years, I will be more likely to protect his dignity.”

The unexpected eruption seemed to reflect the increasingly bitter relations between the embattled 20-term Democrat from Harlem and a president who is trying to protect his party’s prospects in a difficult midterm election season.

792 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:30:37am

Morning all. I'm a little mosque-d out, but still feeling rather jazzed on this lovely election day morning.

Did you all vote? I know we're going to get a high percentage of voting lizards. Today I was the only one there. So sad, but it was early.

793 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:33:09am

re: #788 enoughalready

Our entire lives are spent walking along the precipice.

At any time your choice of how to behave can take you those few short steps in that one direction, followed by injury, death, and destruction for yourself, and/or others. And a big part of being responsible is realizing that your decisions are affecting others who are not getting any input into the process.

794 ShaunP  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:34:16am

re: #792 marjoriemoon

Morning all. I'm a little mosque-d out, but still feeling rather jazzed on this lovely election day morning.

Did you all vote? I know we're going to get a high percentage of voting lizards. Today I was the only one there. So sad, but it was early.

Hey Marjorie,
I'm stopping before I pick the little guy up from school today...

795 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:35:23am

re: #785 webevintage

The windows in Russell Simmons apartment that overlook Ground Zero:
[Link: www.boingboing.net...]

I just saw that. I like the windows; do you realize it spells "coexist"? A slogan I find is too simple and cutesy for my taste, but appropriate as that window display, IMO.

796 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:39:02am

Our stray cat didn't run away when I saw him/her last night! We've been feeding her/him for about a month but, s/he always flees when we approach the bowls. S/he has a ringed tail so I think I'm gonna' name her/him "Cooney."

I had 14 dogs in the mountains before I moved to Seattle. I started with two but, folks figured out that my house was a good place to drop them off. I'd get them fattened up and take them to the vet for shots and "fixing." I'd re-home some, keep others. (I got called every name in the book when I refused to let some have one of my doggies if I didn't like their looks or the answers they gave in my adoption interviews. Fuck 'em.)

Anyway, it's quiet here. Too quiet. I'm gonna' strut a bit, then I'm gonna' sleep.


Youtube Video
797 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:40:28am

re: #788 enoughalready

Ah, the smell of moral equivalence in the morning!

798 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:40:34am

re: #795 reine.de.tout

I just saw that. I like the windows; do you realize it spells "coexist"? A slogan I find is too simple and cutesy for my taste, but appropriate as that window display, IMO.

That's the same symbol set as the "coexist" bumperstickers that you can see around. Apparently in the northeast they're on Suburu Foresters and Toyota Priusi (whatever the plural for Prius is...) that drive too slowly in front of FBV.

I'm not one of the those. I'm in the Forester with the FSM symbol that's doing 70mph in the other lane... ;)

799 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:41:01am

re: #794 ShaunP

Hey Marjorie,
I'm stopping before I pick the little guy up from school today...

Yea!! I'm all for poll voting as opposed to mail in ballot. I like the whole community experience, meeting the neighbors, etc. Even tho today I was the entire community heh

800 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:42:21am

re: #791 NJDhockeyfan

Uh oh, Rangel takes a swipe at the Prez...

Rangel on the Hot Seat in Debate

“Frankly, he has not been around long enough to determine what my dignity is,” Mr. Rangel said of the 49-year-old Mr. Obama.

Oh, brother. With age, wisdom comes to some. Not to Rangle.

801 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:43:43am

re: #798 oaktree

re: #795 reine.de.tout

Wow! I didn't notice!

Hubby has the following on his pickup truck:

1. COEXIST bumper sticker

2. "Veterans for Obama"

3. "Gravity is also a theory" (something like that)

4. Darwin "fish" (with feet and tail)

and last but not least

5. "I love orgasms"

802 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:43:51am

Good morning Lizards.

Since cats are always on topic two shots of the cats playing feline overlord in Illinois with a friend of mine.

Image: ?action=view&current=MYCOOKIES.jpg

Image: ?action=view&current=ComfyCat.jpg

803 prairiefire  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:45:16am

re: #792 marjoriemoon

Morning all. I'm a little mosque-d out, but still feeling rather jazzed on this lovely election day morning.

Did you all vote? I know we're going to get a high percentage of voting lizards. Today I was the only one there. So sad, but it was early.

We had our primaries a couple of weeks ago. I did vote, but I could not stem the tide of red state folks voting against Health Care Reform in Proposition C. *shrug*[Link: www.stltoday.com...]

804 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:45:31am

re: #802 oaktree

Good morning Lizards.

Since cats are always on topic two shots of the cats playing feline overlord in Illinois with a friend of mine.

Image: ?action=view&current=MYCOOKIES.jpg

Image: ?action=view&current=ComfyCat.jpg

Pussies rule.

805 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:45:35am

re: #802 oaktree

Good morning Lizards.

Since cats are always on topic two shots of the cats playing feline overlord in Illinois with a friend of mine.

Image: ?action=view&current=MYCOOKIES.jpg

Image: ?action=view&current=ComfyCat.jpg

I was just looking at your pussycat pics. They're so cute!!

806 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:46:06am

Sweet dreams to me!

807 prairiefire  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:46:32am

re: #802 oaktree

They did not open for me.

808 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:47:16am

re: #807 prairiefire

They did not open for me.

Does the site my nick connects to open for you?

809 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:48:10am

re: #803 prairiefire

We had our primaries a couple of weeks ago. I did vote, but I could not stem the tide of red state folks voting against Health Care Reform in Proposition C. *shrug*[Link: www.stltoday.com...]

Wow. That's pretty messed up... I'm sorry :(

810 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:48:28am

re: #788 enoughalready

How many IRA members blew themselves and innocents to smithereens? How many IRA members flew planes into buildings?
How many


Oh, forget it. It's no use pounding my head on my desk over this bullshit moral equivalency.

811 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:50:18am

re: #810 MandyManners

{Mandy}

Good morning!

812 prairiefire  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:50:37am

re: #808 oaktree

Does the site my nick connects to open for you?

Yes. Very cute and large assortment of creatures. That 8 point buck looks great. Did you get him?

813 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:50:46am

re: #810 MandyManners

Wait, so because the IRA only blew up innocents as opposed to themselves they have some sort of moral high ground? Your bigotry keeps going further from 'funny' and well into 'creepy' Mandy...

814 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:54:41am

re: #812 prairiefire

Yes. Very cute and large assortment of creatures. That 8 point buck looks great. Did you get him?

Yep. First deer I ever shot (and ate.) Not a huge buck as they go, but fairly large for that area, which is primarily re-mediated strip mine with various amounts of undergrowth and gullies due to spill piles.

815 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:55:57am

re: #810 MandyManners

How many IRA members blew themselves and innocents to smithereens? How many IRA members flew planes into buildings?
How many

Oh, forget it. It's no use pounding my head on my desk over this bullshit moral equivalency.

The IRA blew up plenty of innocent people. Do you want to get into the numbers?

816 Winny Spencer  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:55:59am

re: #813 McSpiff

Well, many times they did blow up themselves, but not intentionally.

817 prairiefire  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:56:49am

re: #814 oaktree

Yep. First deer I ever shot (and ate.) Not a huge buck as they go, but fairly large for that area, which is primarily re-mediated strip mine with various amounts of undergrowth and gullies due to spill piles.

I hope you never have to chase a half dead one through that terrain. That would not be fun.
Later, gators.

818 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:57:06am

re: #813 McSpiff

Wait, so because the IRA only blew up innocents as opposed to themselves they have some sort of moral high ground? Your bigotry keeps going further from 'funny' and well into 'creepy' Mandy...

Well I'm a little confused at what Enoughalready was trying to say. I don't think the line between humanity and genocidal ideology is thin at all. I don't think it's a hop, skip and jump into murdering mass amounts of people, or even one. It takes a specific murderous ideology that is bred into you somehow to go to that place. Either that or an overly obsessive need for power and control on the backs of your fellow human beings. That is not something inherent in human nature because most of the world doesn't act that way.

Indeed, we can be aggressive, but modern man has learned to control his aggressive nature, for the most part, in order to live together.

819 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:58:26am

re: #816 Winny Spencer

Well, many times they did blow up themselves, but not intentionally.

Its amazing how some refuse to condemn the IRA. Why do I feel we wouldn't be seeing the same tears if NORAID was renovating the Sacred Coat Factory? The SoCons really do make me sick.

820 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:58:38am

re: #813 McSpiff

Wait, so because the IRA only blew up innocents as opposed to themselves they have some sort of moral high ground? Your bigotry keeps going further from 'funny' and well into 'creepy' Mandy...

That was bigotry? Would you call this an example of bigotry as well?

Anti-Semitic Incident at Ground Zero Mosque Counter Protest

At Sunday's Ground Zero mosque protest, I spoke to one man who had been with the counter-protesters, Joey “Boots” Bassolino, immediately after the police pulled him out from the crowd. What happened, I asked? “There was a guy standing up, a Pakistani guy, who had identified himself as a Pakistani, and he said: ‘We’re not going to sit there and back these Zionist Jews,’” Bassolino recounted, still clearly a little shaken up.

“And I’m like, whoa, wait a minute. What’s up with the racism? And they’re like, ‘what’s racist about that?’” The guy behind Bassolino yelled “f*** you,” reached forward, grabbing his camera and hitting it. “So I kicked him in the shin,” Bassolino said. Bassolino, a disabled U.S. army veteran, claims that he’s an “objective” observer and was in the group of counter-protesters to “document what was going on.”

“These are people that are supposedly protesting racism, yet you get people standing up there on a soap box yelling about ‘Zionist Jews.’ What the hell is that? That’s racism to me, man,” Bassolino explained to me.

Here’s the video Bassolino uploaded to YouTube. The remark about "Jewish Zionist Israel" is at the 3:55 mark:

Youtube Video
821 enoughalready  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:58:45am

re: #810 MandyManners

How many IRA members blew themselves and innocents to smithereens? How many IRA members flew planes into buildings?
How many

Oh, forget it. It's no use pounding my head on my desk over this bullshit moral equivalency.

Moral equivalency? How is it different to place a bomb in a pub, walk away and let it explode to walk into the pub wearing the bomb and let it explode, killing yourself in the blast? Is one act inherently more evil than the other? Should we have a scale for evil, perhaps named after Josef Stalin where we define acts of evil in milli, centi or deci-Stalins? How evil were the IRA bombmakers then compared to, for example, some random suicide bomber in Iraq?
There is no moral high ground. Evil acts are just that - evil. My point is that we can all, easily, become monsters and that often this happens in an environment where our opinions and acts are perceived as normal to any local observer.

But this is a pointless discussion. Our respective views of this issue differ so much that there is little use in discussing it.

822 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:59:18am

re: #816 Winny Spencer

Sorry, not sure why i made my #819 a reply to you...but good point.

823 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:59:21am

re: #817 prairiefire

I hope you never have to chase a half dead one through that terrain. That would not be fun.
Later, gators.

I've done that in that area. One of the hopes for doe season up there actually is a little bit of snow since it makes it a lot easier to spot the deer and then track them if you just wound one.

824 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:00:41am

re: #820 NJDhockeyfan

That was bigotry? Would you call this an example of bigotry as well?

Anti-Semitic Incident at Ground Zero Mosque Counter Protest

Yes, that's bigotry too. Two wrongs don't make a right though.

825 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:01:20am

re: #820 NJDhockeyfan

Do you use a magic eight ball to write your posts? WTF does the Park51 protest have to do with the IRA? or Islamic terrorism?

826 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:04:27am

re: #820 NJDhockeyfan

yes.

and good morning!

827 enoughalready  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:04:36am

re: #818 marjoriemoon

Well I'm a little confused at what Enoughalready was trying to say. I don't think the line between humanity and genocidal ideology is thin at all. I don't think it's a hop, skip and jump into murdering mass amounts of people, or even one. It takes a specific murderous ideology that is bred into you somehow to go to that place. Either that or an overly obsessive need for power and control on the backs of your fellow human beings. That is not something inherent in human nature because most of the world doesn't act that way.

Indeed, we can be aggressive, but modern man has learned to control his aggressive nature, for the most part, in order to live together.

I think that is exactly the problem. Many of us (myself included a lot of the time) think that we are somehow inoculated against barbarism. These last few years I've been looking at what goes on around me and noticing that this may well not be the case. Even though democracy and a solid constitution is a good base to build on I argue that in order to avoid a slip into barbarism requires vigilance on a personal level, to analyze and question both our elected officials, the information outlets and our own views of the world. This has nothing to do with moral equivalence.

Modern man is an interesting construct as well, when I look at our recent history I see no real evidence that we have learned to control our aggressive nature. If anything we have become more proficient killers.

828 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:04:43am

re: #824 iossarian

Yes, that's bigotry too. Two wrongs don't make a right though.

qft

829 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:06:57am

re: #826 Aceofwhat?

yes.

and good morning!

Good morning! I small rain storm popped up over my area. I've got 3 1/2 inches of much needed rain so far. My pepper plants are very happy. :)

830 cliffster  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:07:41am

re: #810 MandyManners

How many IRA members blew themselves and innocents to smithereens? How many IRA members flew planes into buildings?
How many

Oh, forget it. It's no use pounding my head on my desk over this bullshit moral equivalency.

It's fashionable.

831 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:08:36am

re: #827 enoughalready

There's also the issue of barbarism by proxy. We may not murder people ourselves but we're quite happy to profit by enabling murderers.

832 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:11:25am

I invite anyone here to argue that this isn't as brutal as some of the killings we've seen in Iraq and Afghanistan at the hands of the Islamic militants:

Corporals Killings

David Howes and Derek Wood were driving in a silver Volkswagen Passat car wearing civilian clothes. The O'Bradaigh funeral was making its way along the Andersonstown Road towards Milltown Cemetery when the car containing the two corporals appeared. The car headed straight towards the front of the funeral, which was headed by a number of black taxis. It drove past a Sinn Féin steward who signalled it to turn. Mourners at the funeral said they believed they were under attack from loyalists. The car then mounted a pavement, scattering mourners and turning into a small side road. On finding that this road was blocked, it then reversed at speed, ending up within the funeral cortège. When the driver attempted to extricate the car from the cortège his exit route was blocked by a black taxi.

When the car was surrounded and the windows smashed, those surrounding attempted to drag the soldiers out. One of the corporals produced a weapon, which off-duty members of the security forces were permitted to carry at the time. Corporal Wood climbed part of the way out of a window, firing a shot in the air which briefly scattered the crowd. Television pictures showed the crowd surging back, with some of them attacking the vehicle with a wheel-brace and a stepladder snatched from a photographer. The corporals were eventually pulled from the car and punched and kicked to the ground.

Journalist Mary Holland recalled seeing one of the men being dragged past a group of journalists: "He didn't cry out, just looked at us with terrified eyes, as though we were all enemies in a foreign country who wouldn't have understood what language he was speaking if he called out for help." They were dragged to the nearby Casement Park sports ground. Here they were again beaten and stripped to their underpants and socks by a small group of men. According to two British news sources, the men were tortured.A search revealed that the men were British Army soldiers. The corporals were further beaten and thrown over a high wall to be put into a waiting black taxi. It was driven off at speed, while camera crews captured one of its passengers waving a fist in the air.
Father Alec Reid administers the last rites to Corporal Derek Wood.

Shortly after, the IRA released a statement which concluded:

Despite media reports, we are satisfied that at no time did our Volunteers physically attack the soldiers. Once we confirmed who they were, they were immediately executed. But we understand why a section of the mourners attacked them and given what happened in Milltown Cemetery on Wednesday, these people acted with exactly the same motive as those who were commended for pursuing loyalist paramilitary Michael Stone.

The two men were driven less than 200 yards to waste ground near Penny Lane, just off the main Andersonstown Road. There they were shot several times. Corporal Wood was shot six times, twice in the head and four times in the chest. He was also stabbed four times in the back of the neck and had multiple injuries to other parts of his body. Redemptorist priest Father Alec Reid, who later played a significant part in the peace process leading to the 1998 Good Friday Agreement, arrived on the scene. One of the most enduring pictures of The Troubles shows him kneeling beside the almost naked body of Derek Wood, his face distraught as he administered the last rites.


Look at this image and tell me the IRA aren't the same evil men we're battling all over the world today: Image: MILLTOWN_PRIEST_DC_1_copy.jpg

833 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:14:58am

re: #832 McSpiff


Look at this image and tell me the IRA aren't the same evil men we're battling all over the world today: Image: MILLTOWN_PRIEST_DC_1_copy.jpg

It's all gone quiet from the "moral equivalence" folks.

834 Winny Spencer  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:15:26am

Incidentally, I wonder how many people are even aware that Protestant paramilitaries killed over 1000 people during the troubles, the overwhelming majority of which were innocent Catholics.

835 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:16:12am

re: #810 MandyManners

How many IRA members blew themselves and innocents to smithereens? How many IRA members flew planes into buildings?
How many

Oh, forget it. It's no use pounding my head on my desk over this bullshit moral equivalency.

The IRA were cowardly little shits who blew innocents to smithereens while making sure they were well out of the way.

I don't know how this makes them "better" than Al Qaeda, just less willing to die along with their victims.

836 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:17:22am

re: #833 iossarian

It's all gone quiet from the "moral equivalence" folks.

Turns out white folk can be evil too. Who knew?

837 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:18:02am

re: #834 Winny Spencer

Incidentally, I wonder how many people are even aware that Protestant paramilitaries killed over 1000 people during the troubles, the overwhelming majority of which were innocent Catholics.

Very true, and I was about to post along similar lines. Both "sides" have a lot to answer for. The Sex Pistols had it right:

Youtube Video
838 ShaunP  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:20:15am

re: #837 iossarian

Very true, and I was about to post along similar lines. Both "sides" have a lot to answer for. The Sex Pistols had it right:


[Video]

Now I'm not going to be able to get that song out of my head all day...

839 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:20:27am

re: #837 iossarian

Very true, and I was about to post along similar lines. Both "sides" have a lot to answer for. The Sex Pistols had it right:


[Video]

O, it would be very easy to make a similar post about the UDF/LVF too. I just picked a PIRA attack I knew of that closely resembled events we're seeing today. Brutal, evil cowards all of them.

840 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:20:52am

re: #818 marjoriemoon

Well I'm a little confused at what Enoughalready was trying to say. I don't think the line between humanity and genocidal ideology is thin at all.

Not for an individual. For a mob, it's trivial.

841 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:21:53am

re: #838 ShaunP

Now I'm not going to be able to get that song out of my head all day...

"HA HA HA HA HA HA"
-- Johnny Rotten

842 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:22:15am

re: #829 NJDhockeyfan

Good morning! I small rain storm popped up over my area. I've got 3 1/2 inches of much needed rain so far. My pepper plants are very happy. :)

we have this band of storms that will be peppering us randomly for the next few days...the rain is welcome, but the randomness is wreaking havoc with my precious tennis schedule!

843 kamala  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:23:59am

re: #692 elbruce

But hey, he's critical of Pam Geller, so Aslan must be a great guy!

He's saying that electorates vote in their own local interest. That's all he's saying there. How do you disagree with that?

I know you'd like it if the Palestinians just asked the U.S. State Department who they should vote for and did that, but I don't think it's "Islamist" to vote for the people who are taking care of basic local governmental needs when it comes time to vote for who should take care of basic local governmental needs.

Now, Palestinians voting for Hamas is a bad thing, I'm not saying otherwise. It monkey-wrenched the hell out of the peace process. But just blaming the Palestinian voters for doing it doesn't solve the issue. Nor does it do any good to call someone an "Islamist" just for pointing that out

Because the next two sentences are:

Rather than make it imposssible for people to elect Islamists, perhaps we should give them a reason not to. In any case, whatever risks there may be in promoting democracy in the Middle East, they pale in comparison to the risks involved in continuing to stifle political reform in the hope of achieving stability in the region.

In other words, let the Palestinians vote Hamas into power, let the Egyptians vote the Muslim Brotherhood into power, let the Algerians vote the FIS into power.

Someone needs to explain to Aslan that democracy is not the same as one man, one vote. Regardless, when he talks about "promoting democracy," he's promoting Islamist parties -- simple as that.

844 Winny Spencer  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:24:06am

re: #839 McSpiff

O, it would be very easy to make a similar post about the UDA/UFF/UVF/LVF too. I just picked a PIRA attack I knew of that closely resembled events we're seeing today. Brutal, evil cowards all of them.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. :)

845 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:24:24am

re: #832 McSpiff

I invite anyone here to argue that this isn't as brutal as some of the killings we've seen in Iraq and Afghanistan at the hands of the Islamic militants:

I don't think that anyone here would argue that.

846 kamala  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:24:35am

re: #723 goddamnedfrank

re: #658 kamala

You know what, I did read the book, so I'll just bold the part that you deceptively chose not to share with us:

The reason you stopped where you did is all too obvious.

re: #647 elbruce

Very wise.

Ummm... see #843.

847 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:25:14am

re: #820 NJDhockeyfan

I'm sorry that was pretty funny...

"We will not support racism!" (Crowd: Yeaah!!)

"We will not support bombing other countries!" (Crowd: Yeahh!!)

"Down with the Zionist Jewish Lobby!" (Crowd: uhh??)

848 kamala  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:25:27am

re: #727 talon_262

Troll hammered...

Oh yeah, hammered -- Reza Aslan follows up that quote by giving lots of ideas on how to get people to vote for parties other than Hamas/MB/etc. Wrong. See 843.

849 lostlakehiker  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:25:54am

re: #530 goddamnedfrank

Kamikaze means divine wind, and under Imperial Japan carried a religious significance as a self sacrificing attack intended to defend the Emperor's Shinto godhood. As the Imperial Japanese raped the people of Nanking and targeted civilians for brutal abuses, medical experiments, forced labor, and tossed babies on bayonets, your distinction seems rather petty and meaningless.

Not. While Japan committed atrocities during WW2, including effective biological attacks against Chinese civilians, their kamikazes were a legitimate means of war.

850 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:27:19am

re: #844 Winny Spencer

Sorry, couldn't help myself. :)

Heh no you're right.

re: #845 Aceofwhat?

I don't think that anyone here would argue that.

Mandy's #810 was getting close. She seemed to think there is some fundamental difference between the IRA and the Islamic groups we're fighting today. I wanted to show that gap may not be as wide as some think. Difference in tactics yes, but ultimately cut from the same tainted cloth.

851 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:27:51am

re: #832 McSpiff

I invite anyone here to argue that this isn't as brutal as some of the killings we've seen in Iraq and Afghanistan at the hands of the Islamic militants:

Or, a little closer to home, this.

852 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:28:34am

re: #851 publicityStunted

Or, a little closer to home, this.

:( What was that from?

853 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:29:07am

re: #827 enoughalready

I think that is exactly the problem. Many of us (myself included a lot of the time) think that we are somehow inoculated against barbarism. These last few years I've been looking at what goes on around me and noticing that this may well not be the case. Even though democracy and a solid constitution is a good base to build on I argue that in order to avoid a slip into barbarism requires vigilance on a personal level, to analyze and question both our elected officials, the information outlets and our own views of the world. This has nothing to do with moral equivalence.

Modern man is an interesting construct as well, when I look at our recent history I see no real evidence that we have learned to control our aggressive nature. If anything we have become more proficient killers.

We are not inoculated against barbarism, obviously, when you look at places like Africa, the Sudan, Charles Taylor, the Taliban. Where it doesn't exist, on a grand scale (excluding serial killers and the like) is in free societies. It's not really democracy, but a republic that is run by the people, not the elected few. That's the vigilance you talk about.

854 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:29:21am

re: #847 marjoriemoon

I'm sorry that was pretty funny...

"We will not support racism!" (Crowd: Yeaah!!)

"We will not support bombing other countries!" (Crowd: Yeahh!!)

"Down with the Zionist Jewish Lobby!" (Crowd: uhh??)


The Pakistani guy speaking is known as Comrade Shahid. You can see his picture on the homepage of the Worker's World Party. What a fucking crackpot!

855 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:29:56am

re: #852 McSpiff

:( What was that from?

Oklahoma City Bombing.

856 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:32:12am

re: #850 McSpiff

Heh no you're right.

re: #845 Aceofwhat?

Mandy's #810 was getting close. She seemed to think there is some fundamental difference between the IRA and the Islamic groups we're fighting today. I wanted to show that gap may not be as wide as some think. Difference in tactics yes, but ultimately cut from the same tainted cloth.

There are fundamental differences. Scale, for one.

With regard to brutality, there are very few differences. Perhaps you might ask her for a clarification.

Me, i highly doubt that any established lizard (i.e. non-sock, non-troll) believes that an IRA bomb is somehow less evil than any other terrorist bomb.

857 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:34:14am

re: #854 NJDhockeyfan

The Pakistani guy speaking is known as Comrade Shahid. You can see his picture on the homepage of the Worker's World Party. What a fucking crackpot!

Holy crap! All the Jews in that crowd and he goes off on the Zionists. I like the lady in the front, "Ok! I'm done!" Good grief.

858 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:36:01am

re: #856 Aceofwhat?

There are fundamental differences. Scale, for one.

With regard to brutality, there are very few differences. Perhaps you might ask her for a clarification.

Me, i highly doubt that any established lizard (i.e. non-sock, non-troll) believes that an IRA bomb is somehow less evil than any other terrorist bomb.

There are differences, yes. But less than many would have you believe. Its more that America is a target of Islamic terrorism, less so than with other groups. There are many lessons to be learned from previous fights against terrorism though, and I fear this attitude of "everything is different!!1!!" will keep that from happening.

859 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:36:41am

re: #827 enoughalready

I think that is exactly the problem. Many of us (myself included a lot of the time) think that we are somehow inoculated against barbarism. These last few years I've been looking at what goes on around me and noticing that this may well not be the case. Even though democracy and a solid constitution is a good base to build on I argue that in order to avoid a slip into barbarism requires vigilance on a personal level, to analyze and question both our elected officials, the information outlets and our own views of the world. This has nothing to do with moral equivalence.

Modern man is an interesting construct as well, when I look at our recent history I see no real evidence that we have learned to control our aggressive nature. If anything we have become more proficient killers.

And no, I don't think in the overall history of man, we are more barbaric. We are less barbaric. We just have fancier weapons.

I'm not sure there is a right answer to that question, or rather a way to prove either of us right or wrong, just each of our perceptions.

860 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:39:34am

re: #854 NJDhockeyfan

The Pakistani guy speaking is known as Comrade Shahid. You can see his picture on the homepage of the Worker's World Party. What a fucking crackpot!

By the way, I was reading the demography of Manhattan the other day. Just over 20% are Jews, that's about 1 in 4 people. So Comrade should definitely find another soapbox.

861 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:39:49am

Ok, lunch time on the East-East Coast, BIAB.

862 cliffster  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:41:04am

re: #856 Aceofwhat?

There are fundamental differences. Scale, for one.

With regard to brutality, there are very few differences. Perhaps you might ask her for a clarification.

Me, i highly doubt that any established lizard (i.e. non-sock, non-troll) believes that an IRA bomb is somehow less evil than any other terrorist bomb.

I think it was a reaction to the general moral equivalence sentiment which is becoming increasingly common. Like I said, it's fashionable to say that Americans, or the West, are just as bad as people in other areas. Which is stupid.

863 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:41:07am

re: #810 MandyManners

re: #830 cliffster

My brother John was nearly killed by an IRA bomb. The bomb exploded in the phone booth that he used every day, in front of his apartment. He was about to go there to phone us. He still would have been killed if his oh-we-thought-he-was-paranoid-but-are-so-glad landlord hadn't installed bomb-proof windows in his flat.

IRA bombs have blown apart busses, hit shopping centers, killed police, destroyed pups. IRA members have kidnapped and tortured people, and murdered children.

You two are engaging in really shameful moral relativism, unless you can explain how planting a bomb and not dying in the explosion yourself is somehow more moral than planting a bomb and dying in the explosion yourself.

864 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:41:31am

re: #859 marjoriemoon

And no, I don't think in the overall history of man, we are more barbaric. We are less barbaric. We just have fancier weapons.

I believe it was Cato who said that, all it would take for North Americans to revert to "red-toothed barbarism" would be two missed meals and no delivery trucks on the horizon.

865 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:41:58am

Spain paid seven million euros for hostages: report

BARCELONA, Spain - Two Spanish aid workers freed by Al-Qaeda's North African offshoot returned home Tuesday after nine months in captivity following the reported payment of a ransom of millions of euros.

The Spanish government expressed delight at the release of Albert Vilalta, 35, and Roque Pascual, 50, who were seized in Mauritania on November 29 along with a third Spaniard, 39-year-old Alicia Gamez, who was freed in March.

But Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, confirming their release late Monday, made no mention of any payment despite one media report that up to seven million euros (S$12 million) had changed hands.

He said only that the government had "stepped up the activities of its political, diplomatic and intelligence services to secure their release."

Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM) said it had agreed to free the hostages after some of its demands were met, the Spanish newspaper El Pais reported, quoting an audio statement it said was from the group.

These demands included a ransom of several million euros, and the release of the mastermind behind the kidnapping who was jailed in Mauritania and freed in Mali just hours before the hostages' release, according to media reports.

El Mundo newspaper said that the government paid out 6.8 million euros in total to secure the release of the three Spanish aid workers.

866 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:42:53am

re: #863 Obdicut

Sigh. Pups = pubs. As in, they blew up pubs withe people inside them.

867 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:43:44am

I think a squirrel is masquerading as a Lizard.
This guy.

ibrodsky

What the heck was objectionable to this Page?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Ibrodsky, The - ding is fine but hey, man up and speak your objection. Lots of room in the comment box ya know...

868 cliffster  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:43:47am

re: #863 Obdicut

like I said, I doubt Mandy's response was really a reaction to the IRA, it was a reaction to the stupid attempts people make to make it seem that Americans are just as barbaric as, well, other countries.

869 enoughalready  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:44:15am

re: #853 marjoriemoon

We are not inoculated against barbarism, obviously, when you look at places like Africa, the Sudan, Charles Taylor, the Taliban. Where it doesn't exist, on a grand scale (excluding serial killers and the like) is in free societies. It's not really democracy, but a republic that is run by the people, not the elected few. That's the vigilance you talk about.

All societies depend on the people to make informed decisions, this is why I always argue that we should spend far more money on educating the young of the world than on anything else. In fact I think we agree although you have a somewhat less bleak view of the current situation and I for one certainly hope you are correct.

870 garhighway  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:45:43am

Another rough day for NE rail commuters, as infrastructure that's roughly 100 years old fails. Now Amtrak has problems, too.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

871 enoughalready  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:45:58am

re: #868 cliffster

like I said, I doubt Mandy's response was really a reaction to the IRA, it was a reaction to the stupid attempts people make to make it seem that Americans are just as barbaric as, well, other countries.

My point is that we have to AVOID becoming barbaric and that what is going on now is a step in the process towards BECOMING barbaric.

872 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:46:02am

re: #867 Rightwingconspirator

I think a squirrel is masquerading as a Lizard.
This guy.

ibrodsky

What the heck was objectionable to this Page?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Ibrodsky, The - ding is fine but hey, man up and speak your objection. Lots of room in the comment box ya know...

Don't worry about it
Someone noticed ibrodsky's serial and stealth downdinging yesterday, I believe.

But I agree people should speak their objections/opinions, rather than silently downdinging - most cowardly, IMO.

873 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:46:27am

re: #864 publicityStunted

I believe it was Cato who said that, all it would take for North Americans to revert to "red-toothed barbarism" would be two missed meals and no delivery trucks on the horizon.

hehe Well I don't agree with that either. I lived through many a hurricane where we were quite literally cut off from "civilization" in the sense of no electric and no food supplies (other than what you had) for 2 weeks.

Of course, during Andrew, there was that video of the man getting beaten with a shovel for his truckload of ice.

Outside of some incidences like that, most people go out of their way to be altruistic to their neighbor. For reals. My experiences in a community crisis have largely been very positive. Helping neighbors clean away debris. SHARING your ice with the neighbor. That kind of thing.

874 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:47:13am

re: #867 Rightwingconspirator

I think a squirrel is masquerading as a Lizard.
This guy.

ibrodsky

What the heck was objectionable to this Page?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Ibrodsky, The - ding is fine but hey, man up and speak your objection. Lots of room in the comment box ya know...

He didn't like me either :(

I remember him from way back, but I can't recall if I agreed or disagreed.

875 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:48:15am

re: #867 Rightwingconspirator

Ibrodsky, The - ding is fine but hey, man up and speak your objection. Lots of room in the comment box ya know...

I don't think you'll be hearing from him anytime soon ;)

876 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:49:46am

re: #869 enoughalready

All societies depend on the people to make informed decisions, this is why I always argue that we should spend far more money on educating the young of the world than on anything else. In fact I think we agree although you have a somewhat less bleak view of the current situation and I for one certainly hope you are correct.

I think I'm realistic about certain places, like the Sudan, Pakistan, Afghanistan and of course Israel's territories. But no, overall, I think we're nicer as humans. Especially since most of the world has already been conquered.

877 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:49:48am

re: #858 McSpiff

There are differences, yes. But less than many would have you believe. Its more that America is a target of Islamic terrorism, less so than with other groups. There are many lessons to be learned from previous fights against terrorism though, and I fear this attitude of "everything is different!!1!!" will keep that from happening.

I quite disagree. The tactics are equally unpardonable and horrific. The aims, goals, scale, scope, international support, etc. etc. are very different.

It seems to be a very limited-value exercise to bring up examples of unrelated terrorism in a general attempt to discuss current terrorists. If you're making a very specific point, sure, there may be a helpful parallel to draw from a past unrelated terrorist act to a more recent act.

But on its face, the only general point that I can think to draw across very different terrorist movements is that their ends absolutely don't justify their means.

878 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:50:35am

re: #868 cliffster

like I said, I doubt Mandy's response was really a reaction to the IRA, it was a reaction to the stupid attempts people make to make it seem that Americans are just as barbaric as, well, other countries.

Humans are humans. We have a great government and a tradition of enlightenment and humanism. But even when we had the same form of government and the same tradition (though not fully fleshed) of humanism, we had slavery, genocidal practices against the Indians, and incredibly terrible conditions for the working poor.

We have improved greatly over the past several hundred years. But we have improved. It has been a process. There is nothing magical about it, they are hard-earned gains made by brave men and women sacrificing themselves for freedom and liberty. And it was not a sure thing.

What is a man in Lebanon, dreaming of liberty to do? The ones I know of leave to come to the US where that dream can be fulfilled. We become richer from those people, Lebanon becomes poorer.

We should not be so self-congratulatory of our superiority over other cultures. It exists, but it was not the work of us now living, and it is something that elevates our lives above those in the countries with 'barbarism'. And we are still far from perfect, as our willingness to support torture, the laws passed in Oklahoma, and the insane tide of anti-Muslim and anti-science sentiment in this country shows.

Pride cometh before a fall. I would rather concentrate on what we can do to fix our many, many problems still existing than to rest on our laurels because compared to benighted theocracies we're doing well. What's the point of that?

879 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:51:39am

Suicide bomber attacks Somali hotel, killing 32

A suicide bomber and gunmen wearing military uniforms attacked a hotel near Somalia's presidential palace Tuesday, sparking a one-hour gun battle with security forces. At least 32 people were killed, including six Somali parliamentarians.

Witnesses described a horrific scene of dead bodies throughout the Muna Hotel and guests scrambling to safety by escaping out of windows.

The multi-pronged assault came less than 24 hours after the country's most dangerous militant group — al-Shabab, a group allied with al-Qaida — threatened a "massive" war against what it labeled as invaders, a reference to the 6,000 African Union troops in Mogadishu.

The attack on the Muna Hotel raised the two-day toll to at least 70 people, a high number even by Mogadishu's violent standards. Fighting that rocked Mogadishu on Monday killed 40 people, health officials said.

Somalia's deputy prime minister told The Associated Press that 19 civilians, six members of parliament, five security forces and two hotel workers were killed in the attack — a total of 32. Two attackers also were killed, said Abdirahman Haji Aden Ibi, the deputy prime minister. A government statement said 31 people were killed.

An 11-year-old shoe shine boy and a woman selling tea in front of the hotel were among the dead, African Union spokesman Maj. Barigye Bahoku said.

880 garhighway  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:52:10am

re: #872 reine.de.tout


But I agree people should speak their objections/opinions, rather than silently downdinging - most cowardly, IMO.

Yes and no. Sometimes one may have time to write a thoughtful post explaining a disagreement and other times one may not. If you don't, does that mean one shouldn't express their disagreement at all?

Sometimes, other posters have already pointed out the flaws in an offending post. Do you require a "me, too" post before someone can hit the dinger?

The example at hand is a great example of one where a post would have been helpful, since it seems mysterious. But most of the time the nature of the disagreement is obvious, and a post would be superfluous.

881 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:52:27am

re: #875 publicityStunted

I don't think you'll be hearing from him anytime soon ;)

Doh!

882 cliffster  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:52:47am

re: #871 enoughalready

My point is that we have to AVOID becoming barbaric and that what is going on now is a step in the process towards BECOMING barbaric.

well, if you just want to sit around worrying about something, that's just as good as anything else I suppose.

883 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:52:50am

re: #872 reine.de.tout

I don't worry. I just try to motivate that sort to speak up. Makes for a better experience here for us.

Blocked user from 2004. What a surprise! (not)
I'm off to my commute, have a great morning 'yall.

884 ShaunP  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:53:32am

re: #876 marjoriemoon

I think I'm realistic about certain places, like the Sudan, Pakistan, Afghanistan and of course Israel's territories. But no, overall, I think we're nicer as humans. Especially since most of the world has already been conquered.

The only thing that separates Americans from other people around the world is that we are well-fed, educated and don't have to eek out miserable lives that make barbaric behavior even somewhat appealing. There is nothing inherently evil about any people, as evident by how well people around the world integrate when they immigrate here...

I imagine that my life choices might have been different with a second grade education, living in a shack and struggling to find food and water...

885 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:54:01am

re: #878 Obdicut


We have improved greatly over the past several hundred years. But we have improved. It has been a process. There is nothing magical about it, they are hard-earned gains made by brave men and women sacrificing themselves for freedom and liberty. And it was not a sure thing.

It's always instructive to look back at those hard-earned gains, and see how the pro and anti-change factions described themselves.

886 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:54:54am

re: #867 Rightwingconspirator

I think a squirrel is masquerading as a Lizard.
This guy.

ibrodsky

What the heck was objectionable to this Page?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Ibrodsky, The - ding is fine but hey, man up and speak your objection. Lots of room in the comment box ya know...

best response to Ibrodsky ever.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

nice work, Gus...hope you're feeling better today, wherever you are.

887 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:55:54am

re: #884 ShaunP


I imagine that my life choices might have been different with a second grade education, living in a shack and struggling to find food and water...

You forgot the part where the US overthrows your popluar, democratically elected government and hands your natural resources over to foreign corporations.

888 enoughalready  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:57:45am

re: #876 marjoriemoon

I think I'm realistic about certain places, like the Sudan, Pakistan, Afghanistan and of course Israel's territories. But no, overall, I think we're nicer as humans. Especially since most of the world has already been conquered.

:) I guess I'm more of a misanthrope, I think you can see just as many acts of extraordinary kindness in the places you list as you can in any other society. The fact that there is also far more brutal acts there has perhaps more to do with the lack of an established societal structure (but this can be debated for eons). The question is really how quickly a society which we regard as open and civilized to turn into something nasty. As someone wrote - pride cometh before fall and it is important to (and hey, I get the chance to use a sports metaphor) keep our eyes on the ball as it were.

889 enoughalready  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:58:52am

re: #882 cliffster

well, if you just want to sit around worrying about something, that's just as good as anything else I suppose.

Well, the DSL started working again so I had to find something else to worry about.

890 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 7:59:02am

re: #873 marjoriemoon

Outside of some incidences like that, most people go out of their way to be altruistic to their neighbor. For reals. My experiences in a community crisis have largely been very positive. Helping neighbors clean away debris. SHARING your ice with the neighbor. That kind of thing.

Interesting. I suppose that could depend on other factors, such as the existing culture/mindset of the affected area and their faith in circumstances eventually improving. Barbarism/violence tends to become more prevalent when people feel (for whatever reason) that they have nothing left to lose.

891 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:01:26am

re: #878 Obdicut

Pride cometh before a fall. I would rather concentrate on what we can do to fix our many, many problems still existing than to rest on our laurels because compared to benighted theocracies we're doing well. What's the point of that?

I agree with everything that you wrote. I would only add a small answer to this last paragraph, which is that I believe it necessary to balance our focus on continuing to fix our problems and improve with a perspective that does not excuse other nations from the significant work they may need to do in order to catch up.

Conservatives tend to perceive that liberals too often give other nations a pass, and in attempting to correct that imbalance, can give the appearance of laurel-resting.

My opinion is that we don't need to give anyone a pass, and I would guess that we both agree on that point. We have a lot of work to do here, but the dude in Lebanon has much more work to do.

892 ShaunP  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:01:33am

re: #890 publicityStunted

Interesting. I suppose that could depend on other factors, such as the existing culture/mindset of the affected area and their faith in circumstances eventually improving. Barbarism/violence tends to become more prevalent when people feel (for whatever reason) that they have nothing left to lose.

Contrast that with the fact that in many poor nations, if you die, a neighbor may just step in and adopt your children. Or feed your crippled grandfather. Or share their last bite of food with the guy down the street...

893 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:04:40am

re: #891 Aceofwhat?


My opinion is that we don't need to give anyone a pass, and I would guess that we both agree on that point. We have a lot of work to do here, but the dude in Lebanon has much more work to do.

I agree with you, but frankly, unless we actually get serious about a world government of some kind, what other nations do internally is basically none of our business. Hence, we should look at what we do wrong, and stop excusing it on the basis of what other folks do.

We can't have it both ways, where we get to tell other people how they should run their affairs, but god forbid our generals should be exposed to international tribunals, or any other kind of international oversight.

894 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:05:36am

re: #884 ShaunP

I imagine that my life choices might have been different with a second grade education, living in a shack and struggling to find food and water...

We were there once, too. And while we don't need to arrogantly proclaim that a person in such a situation behave to our lordly standards, we can logically point out where our ancestors faced similar situations and, through the sum of their actions, helped to build the nation that we inherited.

There is a difference between making allowances for the hand that a person is dealt and making unnecessary excuses for the choices that a person makes with the hand that they're dealt. I'm not saying that you're guilty of such, mind you; i'm simply hijacking your comment to add a comment of my own.

895 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:05:40am

Illegal Emigrants

The flood of American liberals sneaking across the border into Canada intensified in the past week, sparking calls for increased patrols to stop the illegal immigration. The re-election of President Bush is prompting the exodus among left-leaning citizens who fear they'll soon be required to hunt, pray, and agree with Bill O'Reilly.

Canadian border farmers say it's not uncommon to see dozens of sociology professors, animal rights activists, and Unitarians crossing their fields at night. "I went out to milk the cows the other day, and there was a Hollywood producer huddled in the barn," said Manitoba farmer Red Greenfield, whose acreage borders North Dakota. The producer was cold, exhausted, and hungry. "He asked me if I could spare a latte and some free-range chicken. When I said I didn't have any, he left. Didn't even get a chance to show him my screenplay, eh?"

In an effort to stop the illegal aliens, Greenfield erected higher fences, but the liberals scaled them. So he tried installing speakers that blare Rush Limbaugh across the fields. "Not real effective," he said. "The liberals still got through, and Rush annoyed the cows so much they wouldn't give milk."

Officials are particularly concerned about smugglers who meet liberals near the Canadian border, pack them into Volvo station wagons, drive them across the border, and leave them to fend for themselves. "A lot of these people are not prepared for rugged conditions," an Ontario border patrolman said. "I found one carload without a drop of Evian. They did have a nice little Napa Valley cabernet, though."

When liberals are caught, they're sent back across the border, often wailing loudly that they fear retribution from conservatives. Rumors have been circulating about the Bush administration establishing re-education camps in which liberals will be forced to drink domestic beer and watch NASCAR. In the days since the election, liberals have turned to sometimes ingenious ways of crossing the border. Some have taken to posing as senior citizens on bus trips to buy cheap Canadian prescription drugs. After catching a half-dozen young vegans disguised in powdered wigs, Canadian immigration authorities began stopping buses and quizzing the supposed senior-citizen passengers. "If they can't identify the accordion player on The Lawrence Welk Show we get suspicious about their age," an official said.

Canadian citizens have complained that the illegal immigrants are creating a shortage of organic broccoli and renting all the good Susan Sarandon movies. "I feel sorry for American liberals, but the Canadian economy just can't support them," an Ottawa resident said. "How many art-history majors does one country need?"

In an effort to ease tensions between the United States and Canada, Vice President Dick Cheney met with the Canadian ambassador and pledged that the administration would take steps to reassure liberals, a source close to Cheney said. "We're going to have some Peter, Paul & Mary concerts. And we might put some endangered species on postage stamps. The president is determined to reach out."

[Link: www.thescreamonline.com...]

896 cliffster  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:07:22am

re: #891 Aceofwhat?

amen bro

897 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:07:38am

re: #892 ShaunP

Contrast that with the fact that in many poor nations, if you die, a neighbor may just step in and adopt your children. Or feed your crippled grandfather. Or share their last bite of food with the guy down the street...

Right. I don't think it's poverty that leads to violence as much as inequality. If everyone's poor together then there's less cause for resentment.

Of course, when everyone's poor, it only takes a small amount of wealth to lead to a large perception of inequality, whereas in the US, most people are well enough off that they can live with the billionaires.

898 cliffster  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:08:52am

re: #893 iossarian

actually, I'm a bigger fan of staying the fuck out of other countries' business.

899 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:09:50am

re: #891 Aceofwhat?

I agree with everything that you wrote. I would only add a small answer to this last paragraph, which is that I believe it necessary to balance our focus on continuing to fix our problems and improve with a perspective that does not excuse other nations from the significant work they may need to do in order to catch up.

Of course it doesn't. But that is their work. And there are some areas where other nations are actually-- gasp!-- ahead of us, as well.


Conservatives tend to perceive that liberals too often give other nations a pass, and in attempting to correct that imbalance, can give the appearance of laurel-resting.

I personally think that we should use our economic leverage to force China to move to a better human rights record, and our technological edge to reduce our dependence on oil so that the Middle Eastern governments and elite do not have an unending stream of money and resources from a single industry. I have held these views for a long time, and I can remember being mocked for holding them as a bleeding heart liberal who didn't understand realpolitik.

Many of the nations that we have allied with, and our allied with, and trade with are morally corrupt, unethical shitholes, dictatorial, oligarchical, or theocratic. I would love for us to do more about that; I do not see conservatives actually being concerned about that one whit, in any practical terms.

My opinion is that we don't need to give anyone a pass, and I would guess that we both agree on that point. We have a lot of work to do here, but the dude in Lebanon has much more work to do.

So what? What is gained by patting ourselves on the back? We may be doing better at human right and working conditions for our workers, but we allow our corporations to profit from the same terrible working conditions we've outlaws in other countries. How does that make a lick of sense? If it is a bad thing to let people profit from those working conditions here in the US, isn't it a bad thing to let people in the US profit from those working conditions abroad?

A lot of the evils that we used to have in this country are not gone, they are outsourced. That is a problem the dude in Lebanon does not face as we do.

With great power comes great responsibility. The dude in Lebanon has more work to do, and far fewer means to do it. We have less work to do, and immense power to do it-- and yet in many cases we do nothing at all.

I do not understand the mechanism by which tut-tutting other countries is supposed to achieve jack shit.

900 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:10:07am

It's 46 degrees (f) outside, foggy, rainy, cloudy, chilly... summer over.

901 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:10:36am

re: #893 iossarian

I agree with you, but frankly, unless we actually get serious about a world government of some kind, what other nations do internally is basically none of our business. Hence, we should look at what we do wrong, and stop excusing it on the basis of what other folks do.

We can't have it both ways, where we get to tell other people how they should run their affairs, but god forbid our generals should be exposed to international tribunals, or any other kind of international oversight.

i disagree. the same international community which makes excuses for palestinian terrorists time and again is the one to which you would submit our citizens?

we should lecture people about how they should run their affairs to the extent that our affairs permit our international largesse. who shows up in Sri Lanka after a tsunami? who shows up in Haiti after an earthquake? who's giving millions in AIDS prevention exercises to African nations?

if i fall on hard times and some rich dude helps me out, you'd damn well better believe that i'm going to listen to whatever advice he has to give, out of respect if nothing else. i may not follow it, but i'm not going to whine about it.

902 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:12:23am

re: #888 enoughalready

:) I guess I'm more of a misanthrope, I think you can see just as many acts of extraordinary kindness in the places you list as you can in any other society. The fact that there is also far more brutal acts there has perhaps more to do with the lack of an established societal structure (but this can be debated for eons). The question is really how quickly a society which we regard as open and civilized to turn into something nasty. As someone wrote - pride cometh before fall and it is important to (and hey, I get the chance to use a sports metaphor) keep our eyes on the ball as it were.

and re: #890 publicityStunted and re: #892 ShaunP

True, but I think it's government really. It stops and starts there. If your government allows its citizens (all of them) access to education, jobs, housing, all the fundamentals of human rights, then everyone prospers and everyone is happy. Look at Europe and N. America both and you see with more democratic republics than dictators, most of the world is free now.

903 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:13:05am

re: #893 iossarian

I agree with you, but frankly, unless we actually get serious about a world government of some kind, what other nations do internally is basically none of our business. Hence, we should look at what we do wrong, and stop excusing it on the basis of what other folks do.

We can't have it both ways, where we get to tell other people how they should run their affairs, but god forbid our generals should be exposed to international tribunals, or any other kind of international oversight.

A world government? No thank you. The UN is a perfect example of how something like that wouold be a complete failure.

904 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:13:24am

re: #901 Aceofwhat?

How about we lecture people to the extent that lecturing actually achieves anything, rather than just because we have the moral right to?

That would be very little.

905 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:13:29am

re: #897 iossarian

Right. I don't think it's poverty that leads to violence as much as inequality. If everyone's poor together then there's less cause for resentment.

Inequality coupled with structural inequity, you mean. Equality of income is not to be expected in the freest of societies. Sorry. We're not all rocket scientists;)

906 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:13:29am

re: #870 garhighway

Another rough day for NE rail commuters, as infrastructure that's roughly 100 years old fails. Now Amtrak has problems, too.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Co-worker was an hour plus late into work today due to that down here in Philly.

907 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:13:31am

re: #901 Aceofwhat?


if i fall on hard times and some rich dude helps me out, you'd damn well better believe that i'm going to listen to whatever advice he has to give, out of respect if nothing else. i may not follow it, but i'm not going to whine about it.

When the "rich dude" got his money from taking your dad's business away by force (see, e.g., Anglo-Iranian Oil Company) you might, after the initial relief, be less than totally swayed by his contribution of 1% of his wealth towards your problems.

908 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:13:40am

Ok, I have to be more productive than talking to you rubes :p

kiss kiss hug hug

Smell ya later!

909 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:15:15am

re: #900 Walter L. Newton

It's 46 degrees (f) outside, foggy, rainy, cloudy, chilly... summer over.

85 here with 75% humidity...on our way to 95. today's workout with the ball machine is going to be rough.

910 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:15:42am

re: #902 marjoriemoon

and re: #890 publicityStunted and re: #892 ShaunP

True, but I think it's government really. It stops and starts there. If your government allows its citizens (all of them) access to education, jobs, housing, all the fundamentals of human rights, then everyone prospers and everyone is happy. Look at Europe and N. America both and you see with more democratic republics than dictators, most of the world is free now.

In general, in this country, who doesn't have access to education, jobs, housing and basic human rights.

911 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:16:27am

re: #904 Obdicut

How about we lecture people to the extent that lecturing actually achieves anything, rather than just because we have the moral right to?

That would be very little.

yes. lecturing is the wrong word. teaching is a better word, n'est-ce-pas?

by the way, Charles was right. bang-up job on the Liberty Papers blog. proud to share electronic space with a godless lefty such as yourself...

912 enoughalready  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:17:03am

re: #902 marjoriemoon

True, but I think it's government really. It stops and starts there. If your government allows its citizens (all of them) access to education, jobs, housing, all the fundamentals of human rights, then everyone prospers and everyone is happy. Look at Europe and N. America both and you see with more democratic republics than dictators, most of the world is free now.

Is everyone prosperous in developed nations? Hardly. Is everyone happy? Not even close. But there is at least the opportunity to go above and beyond your station, society becomes less static (the stratification is another issue), and that opportunity is what supplies the stability. I still think it's important to not be complacent and acknowledge that a lack of interest in the political process will eventually lead to a collapse of the current system. (Declining voter turnout etc are typical symptoms)

913 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:17:48am

re: #907 iossarian

When the "rich dude" got his money from taking your dad's business away by force (see, e.g., Anglo-Iranian Oil Company) you might, after the initial relief, be less than totally swayed by his contribution of 1% of his wealth towards your problems.

don't randomly alter the structure and intent of my analogy, please.

914 jamesfirecat  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:18:24am

re: #910 Walter L. Newton

In general, in this country, who doesn't have access to education, jobs, housing and basic human rights.

(Half sarcasm) Depends on if you consider being able to marry the one you love a "basic human right" or not....

915 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:18:40am

re: #884 ShaunP


I imagine that my life choices might have been different with a second grade education, living in a shack and struggling to find food and water...

Same as it ever was...

Great, now I have a Talking Heads ear-bug going for the rest of the day...

:(

/

916 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:20:34am

re: #909 Aceofwhat?

85 here with 75% humidity...on our way to 95. today's workout with the ball machine is going to be rough.

I id a couple of miles last night, about 9:00 pm, at our little local 24 hour fitness center. I found out Kroger has a deal with these people, and out monthly fee is reasonable, so I signed up.

It's nice to be on a tread mill or some machine and you look out at the foggy, rainy weather rolling in... with Fox playing on the TV screen attached to the machine.

Both the girlfriend and myself signed up for a year. I'm use to paying almost nothing for gyms, since when I lived in Golden, we had a large community center with very low fees, but up here, nothing, so we have to choose between two fitness franchises.

Of course, there is a lot of things you can do outdoors around here to get exercise, but it's not as easy to do that in the winter. The fitness center is a nice alternative.

917 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:21:08am

re: #913 Aceofwhat?

don't randomly alter the structure and intent of my analogy, please.

What do you mean? You were saying that, if we, as a rich county, help other countries out, they should be grateful, and pay attention to what we tell them to do (unless I misunderstood your point).

I was countering that, if we became rich by screwing other countries over (see, e.g., United Fruit Company) then they might be less than receptive to our views, especially when our largesse is a small fraction of our overall wealth.

918 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:21:33am

re: #911 Aceofwhat?

yes. lecturing is the wrong word. teaching is a better word, n'est-ce-pas?

by the way, Charles was right. bang-up job on the Liberty Papers blog. proud to share electronic space with a godless lefty such as yourself...

Thanks. And yes, teaching is great-- but then the question becomes how to teach effectively? How to actually get the message across?

It is one reason I am very proud of our good acts, such as the aid in Sri Lanka, such as the large number of Americans who are part of Doctos Without Borders and other such groups that provide aid worldwide. I think that the way that we teach best is by example, and that giving aid and teaching a lesson are the same thing.

I also think that we need to carefully examine our exploitative practices in regards to other nations, and think seriously about human rights when it comes to tolerating horrendous working conditions in the factories of our trading partners. That is not a simple task, but I do think we are the only country in the world with the economic power to change it.

919 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:22:53am

re: #916 Walter L. Newton

I id a couple of miles last night, about 9:00 pm, at our little local 24 hour fitness center. I found out Kroger has a deal with these people, and out monthly fee is reasonable, so I signed up.

It's nice to be on a tread mill or some machine and you look out at the foggy, rainy weather rolling in... with Fox playing on the TV screen attached to the machine.

Both the girlfriend and myself signed up for a year. I'm use to paying almost nothing for gyms, since when I lived in Golden, we had a large community center with very low fees, but up here, nothing, so we have to choose between two fitness franchises.

Of course, there is a lot of things you can do outdoors around here to get exercise, but it's not as easy to do that in the winter. The fitness center is a nice alternative.

To keep the treadmills interesting do they have any with a bear on a harness behind it? Chain just long enough to reach the end of the treadmill. And they tie a steak to your rump...

;)

920 ShaunP  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:22:54am

re: #894 Aceofwhat?

We were there once, too. And while we don't need to arrogantly proclaim that a person in such a situation behave to our lordly standards, we can logically point out where our ancestors faced similar situations and, through the sum of their actions, helped to build the nation that we inherited.

There is a difference between making allowances for the hand that a person is dealt and making unnecessary excuses for the choices that a person makes with the hand that they're dealt. I'm not saying that you're guilty of such, mind you; i'm simply hijacking your comment to add a comment of my own.

No worries. I think (as I think everyone here does) that the problem really lies in the hands of corrupt leaders that either steal from their people, blame other nations for their problems or outright militarize government or communities.

I know you understand that I wasn't trying to make excuses for anyone. That said, my hackles go up when I hear words like "barbarian." Our society is more advanced and our government less corrupt (if you can believe that). People are people though...

921 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:23:08am

re: #914 jamesfirecat

(Half sarcasm) Depends on if you consider being able to marry the one you love a "basic human right" or not...

Well, I agree, but no one in this country is prevented from cohabiting with the one they love, so basically, your point is moot. Ii certainly wouldn't let the old hoary worthless concept of the word marriage prevent me from being happy with the person I love.

922 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:23:51am

re: #899 Obdicut

Of course it doesn't. But that is their work. And there are some areas where other nations are actually-- gasp!-- ahead of us, as well.

of course there are.

I personally think that we should use our economic leverage to force China to move to a better human rights record, and our technological edge to reduce our dependence on oil so that the Middle Eastern governments and elite do not have an unending stream of money and resources from a single industry. I have held these views for a long time, and I can remember being mocked for holding them as a bleeding heart liberal who didn't understand realpolitik.

That is exactly what i'm talking about. This isn't tut-tutting others to do better. You know, and can prove, that we have the moral high ground on China and many Middle Eastern governments and believe that we'd be right to push them harder to improve.

That's what i mean. You are simultaneously holding us accountable for getting better and holding other nations accountable for getting better. Why is it forward-looking when you do it and tut-tutting when i do it, when we are saying the exact same thing?

923 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:25:42am

re: #914 jamesfirecat

(Half sarcasm) Depends on if you consider being able to marry the one you love a "basic human right" or not...

ask someone in a shantytown whether the state's recognition of their marital status is high on their list of needs.

924 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:26:06am

re: #922 Aceofwhat?


That's what i mean. You are simultaneously holding us accountable for getting better and holding other nations accountable for getting better. Why is it forward-looking when you do it and tut-tutting when i do it, when we are saying the exact same thing?

For me, it depends on what you actually want to do about it. If you want to promote workers' rights internationally, increase environmental regulation, and so forth, then we're on the same page.

925 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:26:47am

re: #918 Obdicut

Thanks. And yes, teaching is great-- but then the question becomes how to teach effectively? How to actually get the message across?

It is one reason I am very proud of our good acts, such as the aid in Sri Lanka, such as the large number of Americans who are part of Doctos Without Borders and other such groups that provide aid worldwide. I think that the way that we teach best is by example, and that giving aid and teaching a lesson are the same thing.

I also think that we need to carefully examine our exploitative practices in regards to other nations, and think seriously about human rights when it comes to tolerating horrendous working conditions in the factories of our trading partners. That is not a simple task, but I do think we are the only country in the world with the economic power to change it.

agree completely

926 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:27:59am

re: #921 Walter L. Newton

No, Walter, marriage is not a moot point, as a friend of mine can tell you.

He lived with the person he loved. Another man. When that man died, suddenly, in a car accident, he was prevented from collecting his belongings, from seeing the body. Because he was not married to him, you see.

Marriage is an important thing in life. I'm glad I'm married to my wife. It comes with different rights, and obligations. It is not simply the same as cohabitation.

927 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:29:30am

re: #924 iossarian

For me, it depends on what you actually want to do about it. If you want to promote workers' rights internationally, increase environmental regulation, and so forth, then we're on the same page.

we haven't gotten to the 'how' yet.

however, since you mentioned it, when you say "promote workers' rights internationally", do you mean with regard to working conditions in subsidiary or partner companies to US companies, or all workers everywhere?

928 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:29:46am

A recent example of what I'm talking about is that students at several (? - at least one, Wisconsin I think) universities in the US pressured their administrations to drop clothing contracts with Fruit of the Loom unless they allowed workers to unionize in Haiti (again ? - could have been another country in the area).

Which is great, but it would be a whole lot more effective if the US passed laws restricting trade with countries that don't have good protections for workers in similar situations.

929 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:30:26am

re: #919 oaktree

To keep the treadmills interesting do they have any with a bear on a harness behind it? Chain just long enough to reach the end of the treadmill. And they tie a steak to your rump...

;)

No they don't.

But, I suspect you have read about my exploit with the local bears, my front porch, my dogs and the garbage.

Well, last week, I ordered two of those commercial sized cans from out trash company. Then I got two steel brace bars, which were drilled with holes up the length of the bar. I drilled some holes into the front of the garbage can, bolted the metal brace into it, cut a slit into the cover so the bar could slide through the top when you put the top down and then secured the bar, through the slit, with a carabiner and as an added annoyance, I have a bungee cord secured across the top.

I also rearranged the parking of the 5 vehicles around her, and moved the garbage cans to a new location.

Seems to have worked, at least up to know, Haven't had a bear hanging around too long, have had a few, can tell by the way the dogs bark, but possibly the hardware on the garbage cans dissuaded them from trying too hard to get into them.

Of source, if they really wanted to, they could probably rip the garbage cans totally apart and throw them through our car windows.

We'll see.

930 windsagio  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:30:40am

re: #926 Obdicut

If those rights are guaranteed (Which can be done, ask WA) then it's kinda moot.

931 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:31:38am

re: #916 Walter L. Newton

i still can't believe that you don't ski. it's nigh unto criminal...

932 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:32:06am

re: #900 Walter L. Newton

It's 46 degrees (f) outside, foggy, rainy, cloudy, chilly... summer over.

It was 106 F here yesterday.

933 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:32:33am

re: #928 iossarian

A recent example of what I'm talking about is that students at several (? - at least one, Wisconsin I think) universities in the US pressured their administrations to drop clothing contracts with Fruit of the Loom unless they allowed workers to unionize in Haiti (again ? - could have been another country in the area).

Which is great, but it would be a whole lot more effective if the US passed laws restricting trade with countries that don't have good protections for workers in similar situations.

unions ≠ panacea

934 jamesfirecat  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:32:56am

re: #921 Walter L. Newton

Well, I agree, but no one in this country is prevented from cohabiting with the one they love, so basically, your point is moot. Ii certainly wouldn't let the old hoary worthless concept of the word marriage prevent me from being happy with the person I love.

Cohabiting isn't prevented yes, but there are times it still gets in the way of things, like the entire "nobody can see them in the hospital but family..." situation.

Though at least that particular situation seems to hopefully have been/is in the process of being dealt with...

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

Also there's the property inheritance issue that is sure to crop up if you live in a state that doesn't allow civil unions...

935 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:32:58am

re: #927 Aceofwhat?

we haven't gotten to the 'how' yet.

however, since you mentioned it, when you say "promote workers' rights internationally", do you mean with regard to working conditions in subsidiary or partner companies to US companies, or all workers everywhere?

If we're not going to seriously engage in some kind of international legislation, then the next best thing would probably be to unilaterally refuse to do business with companies and/or countries that don't, for example, have a minimum set of standards for their workers (sick leave, overtime, health and safety, living wages etc.).

936 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:33:02am

re: #922 Aceofwhat?

of course there are.

That is exactly what i'm talking about. This isn't tut-tutting others to do better. You know, and can prove, that we have the moral high ground on China and many Middle Eastern governments and believe that we'd be right to push them harder to improve.

That's what i mean. You are simultaneously holding us accountable for getting better and holding other nations accountable for getting better. Why is it forward-looking when you do it and tut-tutting when i do it, when we are saying the exact same thing?


How are you saying the exact same thing? I'm not 'holding other nations accountable'-- I don't think that phrase has any meaning to it whatsoever. You can't hold other nations accountable. You can try, but nothing happens no matter how you hold them.

What I see, in general, from people talking about America, or the West's, superiority, is not actually tied to anything, to any action, to any stance-- except, on occasion, military action.

937 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:33:48am

re: #926 Obdicut

No, Walter, marriage is not a moot point, as a friend of mine can tell you.

He lived with the person he loved. Another man. When that man died, suddenly, in a car accident, he was prevented from collecting his belongings, from seeing the body. Because he was not married to him, you see.

Marriage is an important thing in life. I'm glad I'm married to my wife. It comes with different rights, and obligations. It is not simply the same as cohabitation.

I have not a single thing against the "marriage" part, it's a silly position, holding on to a word the way the right has tried to. But unless I am missing something, domestic partner arrangements, legally recognized unions and other such accommodations, either proposed or in force in some states, cover all the concerns you laid out above.

Or am I missing something?

938 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:34:08am

re: #933 Aceofwhat?

unions ≠ panacea

I agree. Do you have a better suggestion though? If you don't, you're probably stuck with unions.

939 windsagio  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:34:24am

re: #937 Walter L. Newton

In almost the entire nation, they don't cover everything. That's kinda the problem.

940 ShaunP  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:34:51am

re: #937 Walter L. Newton

I have not a single thing against the "marriage" part, it's a silly position, holding on to a word the way the right has tried to. But unless I am missing something, domestic partner arrangements, legally recognized unions and other such accommodations, either proposed or in force in some states, cover all the concerns you laid out above.

Or am I missing something?

"Separate but equal"

941 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:35:28am

re: #937 Walter L. Newton

I have not a single thing against the "marriage" part, it's a silly position, holding on to a word the way the right has tried to. But unless I am missing something, domestic partner arrangements, legally recognized unions and other such accommodations, either proposed or in force in some states, cover all the concerns you laid out above.

Or am I missing something?

Yes, you are. There are literally thousands of rights granted by marriage that are not granted by civil unions and domestic partner arrangements.

[Link: www.now.org...]

942 jamesfirecat  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:36:01am

re: #923 Aceofwhat?

ask someone in a shantytown whether the state's recognition of their marital status is high on their list of needs.

I agree with you, in so far as I agree that the following diagram is pretty accurate.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Yes shelter, food, and other things related to survival always come before the less life sustaining desires, but government recognition of marital status should be considered a human right.

Also it's a lot easier for governments to recognize marriages than it would be fore them to make sure everyone has a good home and three square meals a day.

943 deranged cat  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:36:06am

re: #28 Charles

hey, thanks Obdicut! It takes some guts to talk back at those kinda people (some of them fairly troll'y) the way you did. ive read about half the comments, and you were very calm and reasonable. thanks!

944 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:37:11am

re: #934 jamesfirecat

Cohabiting isn't prevented yes, but there are times it still gets in the way of things, like the entire "nobody can see them in the hospital but family..." situation.

Though at least that particular situation seems to hopefully have been/is in the process of being dealt with...

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

Also there's the property inheritance issue that is sure to crop up if you live in a state that doesn't allow civil unions...

You just answered you own question. And see my re: #937 Walter L. Newton... There has been legal precedence, civil union laws, and if having the same rights as a married couple is of major importance for non-traditional couples, then I would think that they would first make a concerted effort to get those laws passed in their state if the laws are not currently available.

945 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:37:43am

re: #936 Obdicut

How are you saying the exact same thing? I'm not 'holding other nations accountable'-- I don't think that phrase has any meaning to it whatsoever. You can't hold other nations accountable. You can try, but nothing happens no matter how you hold them.

If you are going to pressure a country, let's say China, to improve their human rights polices, then you are holding them accountable to certain human rights standards. You are requiring them to account for their actions, and if they do not meet their obligations, you will conceivably respond with some economic measure.

exact. same. thing.

946 windsagio  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:37:49am

re: #941 Obdicut

Gotta say the last point on that list is tres' silly.


You can't dissolve civil unions in states that don't recongize them!


No kidding.

947 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:38:46am

re: #938 iossarian

I agree. Do you have a better suggestion though? If you don't, you're probably stuck with unions.

Yes, that a country encode into law certain basic protections so that workers don't have to be responsible for organizing in order to be treated humanely.

948 windsagio  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:39:09am

re: #947 Aceofwhat?

Good luck with that tho' >>

949 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:40:35am

re: #941 Obdicut

Yes, you are. There are literally thousands of rights granted by marriage that are not granted by civil unions and domestic partner arrangements.

[Link: www.now.org...]

According to the article, 1049 rights to be exact. Thanks for the info. I agree, civil union, domestic partnership, what ever one would like to call it, a couple who agrees to the same commitment as any other couple should be afforded the same legal benefits.

You won't get an argument out of me on this.

950 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:42:01am

re: #945 Aceofwhat?

If you are going to pressure a country, let's say China, to improve their human rights polices, then you are holding them accountable to certain human rights standards.

You are requiring them to account for their actions, and if they do not meet their obligations, you will conceivably respond with some economic measure.

Hah. To me, that's not holding them accountable, it's holding us accountable, as people doing business with them.

exact. same. thing.

Exact same thing as what?

951 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:42:06am

re: #942 jamesfirecat

I agree with you, in so far as I agree that the following diagram is pretty accurate.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Yes shelter, food, and other things related to survival always come before the less life sustaining desires, but government recognition of marital status should be considered a human right.

Also it's a lot easier for governments to recognize marriages than it would be fore them to make sure everyone has a good home and three square meals a day.

disagree. 'human right' is a powerful term. i favor leaving it to a very rare echelon.

hell, you haven't even bothered with property rights...what good is state recognition of your marriage if you have no property rights?

there are lots of things that people OUGHT to have which don't qualify for the "human rights" modifier, IMHO.

952 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:42:44am

re: #948 windsagio

Good luck with that tho' >>

never said i wasn't idealistic on occasion;)

953 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:43:47am

re: #949 Walter L. Newton

Those are just the federal rights, that 1,049. There are more granted on a state and private level.

I'm glad you support marriage rights for gays.

954 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:43:53am

re: #950 Obdicut

Exact same thing as what?

What? You literally just said "it's not the same thing at all". Why do i have to answer a question to remind you of what you said 5 minutes ago?

955 windsagio  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:44:01am

re: #952 Aceofwhat?

Haha fair enough :D

Anyways, got my download started, so I'll see you guys in a number of hours :)

956 jamesfirecat  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:44:13am

re: #947 Aceofwhat?

Yes, that a country encode into law certain basic protections so that workers don't have to be responsible for organizing in order to be treated humanely.

re: #951 Aceofwhat?

disagree. 'human right' is a powerful term. i favor leaving it to a very rare echelon.

hell, you haven't even bothered with property rights...what good is state recognition of your marriage if you have no property rights?

there are lots of things that people OUGHT to have which don't qualify for the "human rights" modifier, IMHO.

Fair enough, I suppose I'd be rather incensed if someone called gun ownership a "necessary human right" so seeing as your in an anti-semantic mood, what kind of right would you consider the right to have the government recognize your marital status?

957 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:45:02am

re: #953 Obdicut

Those are just the federal rights, that 1,049. There are more granted on a state and private level.

I'm glad you support marriage rights for gays.

When didn't I?

958 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:45:26am

re: #947 Aceofwhat?

Yes, that a country encode into law certain basic protections so that workers don't have to be responsible for organizing in order to be treated humanely.

I can read your comment in one of two ways:

If you're saying that countries should encode basic workers' rights, such as the rights to sick leave, overtime pay, a living wage, health and safety, and so on, in order to trade with the US, then I think that's a great idea. But I can't think of the US ever actually doing this - can you?

If you're saying that countries should become "right-to-work" states, and thus undermine one of the main ways that workers have actually improved their position in the past, in order to trade with the US, then we're going to have to "agree to disagree", by which I mean "that's a truly terrible idea".

959 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:45:50am

re: #950 Obdicut

Hah. To me, that's not holding them accountable, it's holding us accountable, as people doing business with them.

It's both, technically. If you are going to hold someone accountable, you also need to be prepared to make good on your position through action.

But at least we've cleared up the question of whether the term was meaningless or not!

960 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:45:50am

re: #957 Walter L. Newton

When didn't I?

When did I say you didn't?

961 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:46:09am

re: #959 Aceofwhat?
We haven't cleared up what it's exactly the same as, though.

962 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:47:10am

re: #956 jamesfirecat

re: #951 Aceofwhat?

Fair enough, I suppose I'd be rather incensed if someone called gun ownership a "necessary human right" so seeing as your in an anti-semantic mood, what kind of right would you consider the right to have the government recognize your marital status?

An important right. A right worth agitating for.

(heh...i almost read 'anti-semantic' as something else...for a second, i was "wtf???")

963 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:48:00am

re: #961 Obdicut

We haven't cleared up what it's exactly the same as, though.

we are saying the same thing. you wish to hold China accountable, and in doing so, we will also need to hold ourselves accountable.

i agree with you!

964 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:49:32am

re: #958 iossarian

I can read your comment in one of two ways:

If you're saying that countries should encode basic workers' rights, such as the rights to sick leave, overtime pay, a living wage, health and safety, and so on, in order to trade with the US, then I think that's a great idea. But I can't think of the US ever actually doing this - can you?

you grossly misunderstand the concept of "basic rights".

965 deranged cat  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:49:46am

From Roger Ebert (on twitter):

Looking for a Right Wing spin on my column about the Mosque? Check here. Might help to read the column first. [Link: j.mp...]
966 jamesfirecat  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:50:33am

re: #962 Aceofwhat?

An important right. A right worth agitating for.

(heh...i almost read 'anti-semantic' as something else...for a second, i was "wtf???")

Its okay, the "Anti-semantic" joke was one that I heard on the Daily Show that I found amusing so I tend to roll it out whenever someone starts to seriously parse my language, which happens pretty often for the obvious reason....

967 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:51:06am

re: #963 Aceofwhat?

we are saying the same thing. you wish to hold China accountable, and in doing so, we will also need to hold ourselves accountable.

i agree with you!

Okay. My point is that this position, long-held by me, long-held by many 'progressives', has been a liberal, not a conservative, position for a long time. It has not been a 'conservative' position in US politics. Likewise, concern for human rights under the Middle Eastern regimes was largely a province of the feminist and humanist 'left' up until 9/11.

So in terms of holding other countries accountable in your definition, rather than giving them a past-- that has been a liberal tradition for a long time, whereas many conservatives have defended our alliances of convenience as realpolitik, and have blocked-- and are still blocking-- trade agreements that attempt to make human rights part of the deal.

968 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:51:44am

re: #964 Aceofwhat?

you grossly misunderstand the concept of "basic rights".

OK, what would your list look like then? And again, does the US consistently enforce your list of rights by refusing to trade with countries that don't guarantee them?

969 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:53:33am

re: #960 Obdicut

When did I say you didn't?

I am on my hand and knees, crying for happiness, like a sodding old fool, because the beneficent and great Obdicut has blessed me for agreeing with the right for gays to have the title of married.

You know Obdi, your overt self-importance precedes you.

970 abolitionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:54:18am

re: #903 NJDhockeyfan

A world government? No thank you. The UN is a perfect example of how something like that wouold be a complete failure.

The UN is reaching for ownership of the all the DNA in every living thing in the dirt in your backyard. It would be a small step to reach into your bedroom. They call this being guardians of biodiversity.

Just making their position-papers available (in paper form) to a everyone affected would kill some rainforests. Can't imagine the costs of actually implementing all those regulations they want to impose.

971 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:56:11am

re: #970 abolitionist

The UN is reaching for ownership of the all the DNA in every living thing in the dirt in your backyard. It would be a small step to reach into your bedroom.

Funny, I usually associate "reaching into your bedroom" with right-wing politicians.

972 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:56:35am

re: #969 Walter L. Newton

What on earth are you talking about?

Are you now seriously complaining that I said that I was glad that you support the right of gays to marry, and made it clear that I never said you didn't?

973 cliffster  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:58:09am

[poem]roses are #FF0000, violets are #0000FF, all my base are belong to you[/poem]

974 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 8:58:54am

re: #967 Obdicut

Okay. My point is that this position, long-held by me, long-held by many 'progressives', has been a liberal, not a conservative, position for a long time. It has not been a 'conservative' position in US politics. Likewise, concern for human rights under the Middle Eastern regimes was largely a province of the feminist and humanist 'left' up until 9/11.

So in terms of holding other countries accountable in your definition, rather than giving them a past-- that has been a liberal tradition for a long time, whereas many conservatives have defended our alliances of convenience as realpolitik, and have blocked-- and are still blocking-- trade agreements that attempt to make human rights part of the deal.

in other words, we agree that we conduct self-examination and continuous improvement domestically but still have the perspective to not excuse the conduct of other nations simply because they haven't 'caught up' to us yet.

that was my original point, which was tut-tutted, if i recall correctly;)

975 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:00:04am

re: #971 iossarian

Funny, I usually associate "reaching into your bedroom" with right-wing politicians.

And I associate reaching into every other room of the house with Liberals. WHat kind of light bulbs in the living room, what kind of car we drive in the garage, what kind of toilets we use in the bathroom, what kind of food we eat in the kitchen, how we barbecue in the yard...

976 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:00:24am

re: #971 iossarian

Funny, I usually associate "reaching into your bedroom" with right-wing politicians.

we need to keep our rights out of the hands of politicians everywhere...the 'left' and 'right' designations only tell you what direction they're coming from;)

977 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:02:03am

re: #968 iossarian

And again, does the US consistently enforce your list of rights by refusing to trade with countries that don't guarantee them?

no. but it would be a simpler, more consistent, and more effective place to start than saying that the US should consistently refuse to trade with countries that don't have unions.

it's hella easier to monitor one organization than one thousand.

978 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:04:37am

Minneapolis will pay $165,000 to zombies

The Minneapolis city attorney's office has decided to pay seven zombies and their attorney $165,000.

The payout, approved by the City Council on Friday, settles a federal lawsuit the seven filed after they were arrested and jailed for two days for dressing up like zombies in downtown Minneapolis on July 22, 2006, to protest "mindless" consumerism.

When arrested at the intersection of Hennepin Avenue and 6th Street N., most of them had thick white powder and fake blood on their faces and dark makeup around their eyes. They were walking in a stiff, lurching fashion and carrying four bags of sound equipment to amplify music from an iPod when they were arrested by police who said they were carrying equipment that simulated "weapons of mass destruction."

However, they were never charged with any crime.

979 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:05:08am

re: #977 Aceofwhat?

no. but it would be a simpler, more consistent, and more effective place to start than saying that the US should consistently refuse to trade with countries that don't have unions.

it's hella easier to monitor one organization than one thousand.

What is your list of rights? Is the right to form a union one of them? If not, why not, given that unions have consistently improved working conditions, when they have been allowed to operate? Do you have an alternative that would similarly improve working conditions?

980 jamesfirecat  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:06:08am

re: #978 NJDhockeyfan

Minneapolis will pay $165,000 to zombies

Zombie eat brains... but zombie no can swallow this injustice!

981 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:08:29am

Human trafficker jailed for trying to sell albino man


A Kenyan man has been sentenced to nine years in prison for trying to sell an albino man to witchdoctors in Tanzania, local media reported Thursday.

A magistrate's court in northwest Tanzania sentenced 28-year old Nathan Mutei on Wednesday, after he pleaded guilty to charges of human trafficking and abduction with intention to sell an albino man, also Kenyan, for 400 million Tanzanian shillings ($263,000).

At least 53 albinos have been killed since 2007 in the east African nation and their body parts sold for use in witchcraft, especially in the remote northwest regions of Mwanza and Shinyanga, both gold-mining regions where superstition is rife.

The victims' blood and body parts are used for potions. Witchdoctors tell their clients that the body parts will bring them luck in love, life and business.

There are around 170,000 albino people, who lack pigment in their skin, eyes and hair, living in Tanzania.

982 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:14:10am

re: #981 NJDhockeyfan

Human trafficker jailed for trying to sell albino man

They can find job opportunities as hit men for Opus Dei.
//

983 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:18:02am

re: #979 iossarian

What is your list of rights? Is the right to form a union one of them? If not, why not, given that unions have consistently improved working conditions, when they have been allowed to operate? Do you have an alternative that would similarly improve working conditions?

my shorter list of rights (and this is off the top of my head, so don't nitpick) includes a minimum employment age, a maximum amount of hours worked per day and per week, humane treatment of people and gender equality.

unions CAN improve working conditions. i'm all for them in the right conditions, and usually, bad conditions are the right conditions. it's just simpler to require the most important protections up front.

984 abolitionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:18:40am

re: #973 cliffster

[poem]roses are #FF0000, violets are #0000FF, all my base are belong to you[/poem]

I like base 2pi. But I'm willing to share.

985 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:20:50am

gotta go. bbl.

986 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:22:31am

I thought it was Bush's fault...

Plunging home sales could sink recovery

Folks... it's not a recovery, it's on life support.

987 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:23:44am

Ten or more black bears found guarding B.C. pot farm

Police investigating an outdoor pot farm at Christina Lake stumbled across a strange menagerie of guards.

Between 10 and 15 amiable black bears popped out of the Kootenay woods to greet the officers, Sgt. Fred Mansveld said.

They were extraordinarily docile and mellow, Mansveld said.

Besides the bears, some of which had cubs, the property also contained more than 1,000 marijuana plants, a young raccoon, a pot-bellied pig, a large dog, and two human residents.

Some people were feeding the bears dog food to lure them into hanging out on the property, RCMP Const. Dave Smith said.

“It was like a cross between Jurassic Park and Jellystone Park,” Smith said.

The pot farm and its inhabitants were discovered when police executed a warrant on the property July 30, though the story didn’t develop legs until this week.

988 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:23:46am

re: #983 Aceofwhat?

my shorter list of rights (and this is off the top of my head, so don't nitpick) includes a minimum employment age, a maximum amount of hours worked per day and per week, humane treatment of people and gender equality.

unions CAN improve working conditions. i'm all for them in the right conditions, and usually, bad conditions are the right conditions. it's just simpler to require the most important protections up front.

This is a very good list. I would personally add a minimum wage, but basically I'm right with you.

I think that any politician who suggested that the US should require this list of rights from its trading partners would immediately be either primaried (in the case of a Republican) or Swift Boated (in the case of a Democrat) by the Chamber of Commerce and Club for Growth, not to mention the Heritage people and sundry other right-wing think tanks.

989 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:26:00am

re: #986 Walter L. Newton

I thought it was Bush's fault...

Plunging home sales could sink recovery

Folks... it's not a recovery, it's on life support.

Corporations report big profits and are sitting on lots of cash. Where's the trickle-down effect when you need it?

990 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:26:10am

Judge calls for Sharia law to cut spinal cord

A SAUDI judge is seeking to have a criminal's spinal cord cut as punishment for an assault with a meat cleaver that rendered his victim paralysed.
Amnesty International has urged the authorities in Saudi Arabia to stop the sentence, sought by a judge in Tabuk, from being carried out. Under Islamic law retribution sentences can include eye-gouging, chopping off the hands of thieves and beheading murderers.

The judge, Saoud bin Suleiman al-Youssef, has already written to hospitals in the area to ask how to damage the culprit's spinal cord and so render him as paralysed as his victim.

One replied saying a nerve stimulant could result in the required injury.

991 elbruce  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:28:25am

re: #843 kamala

In other words, let the Palestinians vote Hamas into power, let the Egyptians vote the Muslim Brotherhood into power, let the Algerians vote the FIS into power.

Someone needs to explain to Aslan that democracy is not the same as one man, one vote. Regardless, when he talks about "promoting democracy," he's promoting Islamist parties -- simple as that.

It's actually not nearly as "simple as that." Suggesting a more effective method of offering those electorates a different option than the parties who serve their local interest is not the same thing as "promoting" those parties. There should be peaceful parties who also work in the local interest.

In the choice between:

1. Take away their democracy, or

2. Offer a better alternative to those parties

I and Aslan would prefer the latter. You are claiming that the 2nd option amounts to promoting those parties. Which is a gross oversimplification of his position.

992 jamesfirecat  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:29:46am

re: #987 NJDhockeyfan

Ten or more black bears found guarding B.C. pot farm

"They were extraordinarily docile and mellow, Mansveld said."

I'm higher than the average bear!

993 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:32:04am

re: #992 jamesfirecat

"They were extraordinarily docile and mellow, Mansveld said."

I'm higher than the average bear!

There is a movie from the 90's called The Bear, or Bear which is, not surprisingly, about a Bear cub. Very funny scene where it stumbles upon and consumes some mushrooms. It too was extraordinarily docile and mellow

994 elbruce  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:32:05am

re: #843 kamala

In other words, let the Palestinians vote Hamas into power, let the Egyptians vote the Muslim Brotherhood into power, let the Algerians vote the FIS into power.

Someone needs to explain to Aslan that democracy is not the same as one man, one vote. Regardless, when he talks about "promoting democracy," he's promoting Islamist parties -- simple as that.

It's actually not nearly as "simple as that." Suggesting a more effective method of offering those electorates a different option than the parties who serve their local interest is not the same thing as "promoting" those parties. There should be peaceful parties who also work in the local interest.

In the choice between:

1. Take away their democracy, or

2. Offer a better alternative to those parties

I and Aslan would prefer the latter. You are claiming that the 2nd option amounts to promoting those parties. Which is a gross oversimplification of his position.

re: #848 kamala

Reza Aslan follows up that quote by giving lots of ideas on how to get people to vote for parties other than Hamas/MB/etc. Wrong. See 843.

I don't have a fully copy of his book, but I've got a sneaking suspicion that he does plenty of that. Taking out-of-context quotes and then using those to claim that he didn't say something else, is a massive distortion of his point.

995 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:37:18am

Pet Ads Banned In Iranian Media Based On Fatwa

All Iranian media have been forbidden to publish any advertisements about pets or pet-related products.

The decision was made by the Ministry of Culture and Islamic Guidance after it requested a fatwa on the issue from Ayatollah Nasser Makarem Shirazi, announced the ministry's Advertisement and Information Dissemination Office (AIDO) in a press release on Tuesday.

Based on his response, publishing any advertisement about keeping, buying, and selling pets is forbidden, AIDO Director Alireza Karimi said.

In addition, ads promoting pet foods and shops selling pet accessories, especially for cats and dogs, have been banned by the fatwa, he added.

Karimi demanded that all the various media outlets decline to publish the above-mentioned ads.

Based on shariah, a dog is essentially unclean.

996 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:37:50am

re: #989 iossarian

Those corporations are considering takeovers of companies that are ripe for picking. It would help explain why Intel is looking to pick up a security company and consolidations in some other industries.

The problem isn't trickle down- it's that everyone sees stormy weather ahead and is battening down the hatches.

The homeowner tax credit program simply stole sales from future quarters and didn't bring new buyers into the marketplace despite low interest rates. The question is just how many sales were stolen and from how many months going forward. With new mortgage application dropping, the supply of homes is only going to grow and buyers are sitting on the sidelines looking for even more affordable housing while sellers are attempting to hold firm on pricing (in some cases, even when the pricing is still underwater on the valuation that counts to purchase another home - what is owed to the banks).

Then, there's the issue with the homeowner assistance program (HAMP) that turns out to have not done its job either as more people slide out of assistance because they can't meet even the renegotiated payments - especially problematic if they've lost their jobs.

High unemployment is contributing to the real estate mess.

The question becomes what to do to unstick the markets (jobs and real estate). The markets can sort this out and it will be painful, but the pain will belong on those party to the transactions involved - the banks and individuals who couldn't repay. Those who are hoping to sell homes into this situation wont be happy about their asking prices, but those with good credit will find affordable housing at good interest rates.

997 zxbe  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:40:35am

re: #351 Stanley Sea

Thank you. Worth re-quoting.

Thanks. It's really disturbing how the right picks and chooses the parts of the constitution they want to follow.. It just doesn't work that.

998 elbruce  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:41:25am

re: #979 iossarian

What is your list of rights? Is the right to form a union one of them?

I personally would put that clearly under the heading of "freedom of association," which I would call a natural inalienable right.

999 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:45:19am

re: #996 lawhawk


The question becomes what to do to unstick the markets (jobs and real estate). The markets can sort this out and it will be painful, but the pain will belong on those party to the transactions involved - the banks and individuals who couldn't repay. Those who are hoping to sell homes into this situation wont be happy about their asking prices, but those with good credit will find affordable housing at good interest rates.

I agree, that is the question. It's useful to think about who falls into which category (trying to sell a home and/or unable to repay mortgage vs. trying to buy with good credit). Basically the former group will tend to be worse off than the latter.

1000 darthstar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:47:27am

mille

1001 cliffster  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:49:06am

re: #1000 darthstar

mille

killo

1002 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:49:36am

1002 a ecaps yessedo

1003 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:50:27am

re: #999 iossarian

Further, it's useful to note whether assistance should be provided to those who found themselves on the wrong end of a bad business decision - whether it makes sense to shift the risk of loss on real estate transactions between private parties to the government. I don't think it should, because those individuals who bought homes without assistance and have paid their obligations in a timely fashion aren't given the same assistance (think reducing interest rates on those mortgages as well as those who are in bad shape).

In fact, it might be far better to demand that the fed work with banks to lower interest rates across the board without any need for refinancing rather than attempt to do so for those who are in the distressed category (refis depending in many places on findings that the property values aren't underwater - a tough situation in parts of the country that have already seen major corrections). Not only would those who are in bad shape get a bit more room to figure their finances, but it would free up capital for those who are timely in their payments (and can use that money to either pay down their mortgages, buy additional goods and services with the differences, or put the difference to savings).

1004 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:51:31am

re: #886 Aceofwhat?

Thanks Ace

1005 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:51:41am

re: #658 kamala

Read the book review. And then go read his book if you think I'm making it up. Aslan is a liar and an Islamist.

There's pretty much no Muslim that you wouldn't accuse of this, is there?

Your "review" is a joke.

If I regret anything about the early years of LGF, it's that my posts were used by bigots like you to justify your hatred.

1006 darthstar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:52:47am

Busy fuckin' day for me, folks, so this will be a drive-by post to bring you all up to date on the world as it is...

1. Murdoch published Imam Rauf's book...oh, the irony.
2. Stem cells - get the fuck over it already...christ, the Koreans are ahead of us in this area of research right now.
3. John Boehner is still way too fucking orange.

Play nice, and I'll see you all when I can.

1007 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:52:51am

re: #1005 Charles

There's pretty much no Muslim that you wouldn't accuse of this, is there?

Your "review" is a joke.

If I regret anything about the early years of LGF, it's that my posts were used by bigots like you to justify your hatred.

Charles, if you haven't seen last night's Daily Show I urge you to check out. He does an excellent piece on Fox being oblivious when it suits them very well.

1008 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:53:41am

re: #1003 lawhawk


In fact, it might be far better to demand that the fed work with banks to lower interest rates across the board without any need for refinancing rather than attempt to do so for those who are in the distressed category...

Right. In fact, you could go even simpler and just give an across-the-board, one-off payment to everyone, regardless of financial situation. I would support that kind of stimulus. The advantage, though, of concentrating such efforts on people in financial difficulty, is that they are more likely to spend their stimulus payment, thus generating more economic activity.

This is why cutting the food stamps program is a really bad idea.

1009 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:54:13am

re: #974 Aceofwhat?

in other words, we agree that we conduct self-examination and continuous improvement domestically but still have the perspective to not excuse the conduct of other nations simply because they haven't 'caught up' to us yet.

that was my original point, which was tut-tutted, if i recall correctly;)

No, I was objecting to you saying that liberals often give other countries a pass whereas conservatives don't-- which is, as I said, an alteration of actual history.

1010 jamesfirecat  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:58:12am

re: #1007 JasonA

Charles, if you haven't seen last night's Daily Show I urge you to check out. He does an excellent piece on Fox being oblivious when it suits them very well.

I'm team evil!

1011 elbruce  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:58:37am

re: #988 iossarian

I think that any politician who suggested that the US should require this list of rights from its trading partners would immediately be either primaried (in the case of a Republican) or Swift Boated (in the case of a Democrat) by the Chamber of Commerce and Club for Growth, not to mention the Heritage people and sundry other right-wing think tanks.

What I'd like to see (and I realize this is going to get people hot because it would have to be under the U.N.) is a global trading agreement whereby member nations agreed to tariff trade from each other according to a rating scale assigned by an international body. Bear with me here...

If a country has poor labor conditions and/or poor civil/human rights and/or poor environmental laws, it gets a lower rating. A country that has a lot of those things gets a higher rating. The degree to which everyone else in the pact applies tariffs to your exports is based on your rating; the lower the rating, the higher the tariff applied to anything you ship elsewhere.

The purpose of these tarriffs would be to offset the actual economic costs of better-rated countries for doing the things that they do right. As it is, trade isn't really free or fair in any way. Countries with higher standards for how they treat their people just can't compete on an "even playing field" with countries that don't. Abusing people is cheaper than not. Unfortunately, every right we grant ourselves has a real, measurable economic cost.

If we say that child labor is illegal, but companies in other countries can sell their products to us by using child labor, this scheme would just offset the cost savings they gain by making things there instead of here. The same would be true for any list of things that we do because it's the right thing to do, but which has a real economic cost for production (which is about everything). But if we actually believe that child labor is bad, we should hold that to be true for children in other countries rather than just their own, and not put ourselves in a position of supporting forcing their children to work instead of ours.

Developed nations would want to join the pact due to pressures from our own workers, who are losing jobs to underdeveloped nations. Underdeveloped nations would want to join the pact to be able to continue to trade with the developed nations, who lead in consumption. The next part is what gets interesting: international companies would then be strongly incentivized to work with underdeveloped nations to improve their conditions there, rather than the reverse as we have it now. If you're an executive with a factory in an underdeveloped country, you can actually save/make money by helping the local government apply better standards. If you're some tinpot dictator and the U.S. tells you to shape up, that's one thing. But if the corporations having factories in your country tell you to shape up, that's quite another; they're already part of your local plutocracy / power base.

The reason I say it would be need to be under the U.N. is that it would require an international agency to assess and update the ratings for each country.

1012 enoughalready  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:59:32am

re: #970 abolitionist

The UN is reaching for ownership of the all the DNA in every living thing in the dirt in your backyard. It would be a small step to reach into your bedroom. They call this being guardians of biodiversity.

Just making their position-papers available (in paper form) to a everyone affected would kill some rainforests. Can't imagine the costs of actually implementing all those regulations they want to impose.

As much as I support the notion of a free market with as few regulations as possible, genetics is one area that we as a species need to be very, VERY careful with.

1013 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 9:59:33am

re: #1010 jamesfirecat

I'm team evil!

Team stupid!

(well, I really don't think that's the truth, But John Oliver made a great case!)

1014 elbruce  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 10:00:47am

re: #1008 iossarian

Right. In fact, you could go even simpler and just give an across-the-board, one-off payment to everyone, regardless of financial situation. I would support that kind of stimulus.

I believe Bush already tried this. Twice. It had almost no noticeable stimulus effect.

1015 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 10:01:09am

re: #1011 elbruce

Great suggestion. Well, either that, or select John Bolton as ambassador to the UN. That'll work just as well.

///

1016 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 10:03:19am

Cover-up let IRA priest escape after Claudy bombings atrocity

A priest involved in one of Northern Ireland's worst terrorist atrocities escaped arrest after police conspired with the government and the Church to protect him, it emerged today.

Father James Chesney was moved to a parish in Donegal in the Republic of Ireland after the 1972 Claudy bombings.

Nine people, including an eight-year-old girl and two teenagers, died and 30 were hurt when three car bombs ex-ploded in the Londonderry village.

The priest — who died in 1980 aged 46 — was transferred following secret talks between Tory minister William White-law and Cardinal William Conway, head of the Catholic Church in Ireland.

They had been approached by a senior Royal Ulster Constabulary officer. Detectives believed Father Chesney was an IRA director of operations and a prime suspect in the attack, but were apparently reluctant to arrest him for fear of inflaming the security situation.

The cover-up was revealed in a report released today by Northern Ireland Police Ombudsman Al Hutchinson.

1017 elbruce  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 10:04:48am

re: #1015 iossarian

Great suggestion. Well, either that, or select John Bolton as ambassador to the UN. That'll work just as well.

///

Well then, we're left with the three options we already have:

1. Complete trade protectionism and withdrawing from the global trading market entirely

2. Dismantling all of our rights, workplace protections and environmental protections so that we can compete with other countries, or

3. Continuing to watch job and productivity opportunities flee from our country for greener (i.e. cheaper) pastures elsewhere.

Which of those do you prefer? Or do you have a different 4th option to propose than the one that I did?

1018 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 10:05:02am

re: #1014 elbruce

I believe Bush already tried this. Twice. It had almost no noticeable stimulus effect.

I think they were tax rebates rather than stimulus payments? So you're immediately eliminating people who are too poor to pay federal taxes. As for "noticeable stimulus effect", I don't personally think you can link cause and effect so easily when it comes to fiscal policy. Maybe they had an effect, but something else happened to offset it?

I do know that I spent my stimulus rebate on having my basement remodeled, using local builders.

1019 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 10:06:44am

re: #1017 elbruce

Well then, we're left with the three options we already have:

1. Complete trade protectionism and withdrawing from the global trading market entirely

2. Dismantling all of our rights, workplace protections and environmental protections so that we can compete with other countries, or

3. Continuing to watch job and productivity opportunities flee from our country for greener (i.e. cheaper) pastures elsewhere.

Which of those do you prefer? Or do you have a different 4th option to propose than the one that I did?

No, no, I was agreeing with you! I think your suggestion was spot on. My (sarcastic and poorly made) point was that the US strategy vis-a-vis foreign engagement has been almost exactly the opposite of what you suggest. We basically work to undermine any kind of international oversight body, and eliminate trade restrictions/tariffs/quotas wherever possible.

1020 elbruce  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 10:08:33am

re: #1018 iossarian

I think they were tax rebates rather than stimulus payments? So you're immediately eliminating people who are too poor to pay federal taxes.

They were called rebates, but also called stimulus and did go to poor people too:

MSNBC Video

Rebates are to go out beginning in May to taxpayers and low-income people, including seniors living off of Social Security and veterans who depend on disability checks. Businesses would get tax breaks for investing in new plants and equipment.

Most taxpayers will receive a check of up to $600 for individuals and $1,200 for couples from the Internal Revenue Service, with an additional $300 per child. People earning at least $3,000 and those who owe little or no taxes would get $300 for singles, $600 for couples. Those making more than $75,000 and couples with income exceeding $150,000 are to get smaller rebates — $50 less per $1,000 they make over those thresholds.

re: #1018 iossarian

As for "noticeable stimulus effect", I don't personally think you can link cause and effect so easily when it comes to fiscal policy. Maybe they had an effect, but something else happened to offset it?

It was my effect that in most households it just basically reduced the debt they were carrying. Which is nice, but doesn't put people to work.

1021 elbruce  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 10:10:19am

re: #1019 iossarian

No, no, I was agreeing with you! I think your suggestion was spot on. My (sarcastic and poorly made) point was that the US strategy vis-a-vis foreign engagement has been almost exactly the opposite of what you suggest. We basically work to undermine any kind of international oversight body, and eliminate trade restrictions/tariffs/quotas wherever possible.

Well, we're kind of flopping around between the three options I mentioned there right now, so nothing we do really helps.

Sorry I misread your sarc tag.

1022 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 10:13:22am

re: #1021 elbruce

Well, we're kind of flopping around between the three options I mentioned there right now, so nothing we do really helps.

Sorry I misread your sarc tag.

No probs - sarcasm on the internet is like playing with fire. Sometimes you get BURNED!

On that note, got to go...

1023 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 10:27:15am

re: #770 RogueOne

I know Gus was realy concerned about this guy:

Fed up, Lutz ends hunger strike
[Link: www.politico.com...]

A politician was on a hunger strike to get his opponent to debate him?

I don't even know where to begin.

1024 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 10:30:19am

re: #816 Winny Spencer

Well, many times they did blow up themselves, but not intentionally.

That's because suicide is a mortal sin. Not because the IRA were humanitarians.

1025 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 10:31:41am

re: #819 McSpiff

Its amazing how some refuse to condemn the IRA. Why do I feel we wouldn't be seeing the same tears if NORAID was renovating the Sacred Coat Factory? The SoCons really do make me sick.

The IRA didn't hit American targets, that's part of it--and in my own Irish-American community, you'll find plenty of people to defend the IRA against all criticism.

IRA operatives used to train with the PLO. I wonder if that little factoid would make some folks less willing to whitewash them?

1026 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 10:32:18am

re: #820 NJDhockeyfan

That was bigotry? Would you call this an example of bigotry as well?

Anti-Semitic Incident at Ground Zero Mosque Counter Protest

I would, but McSpiff is still right about the IRA.

1027 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 10:33:34am

re: #834 Winny Spencer

Incidentally, I wonder how many people are even aware that Protestant paramilitaries killed over 1000 people during the troubles, the overwhelming majority of which were innocent Catholics.

I am, but being from a mostly-Catholic family on the Irish side, I'm reflexively harder on the Catholic paras.

1028 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 10:35:06am

re: #843 kamala

He's saying that electorates vote in their own local interest. That's all he's saying there. How do you disagree with that?

I know you'd like it if the Palestinians just asked the U.S. State Department who they should vote for and did that, but I don't think it's "Islamist" to vote for the people who are taking care of basic local governmental needs when it comes time to vote for who should take care of basic local governmental needs.

Now, Palestinians voting for Hamas is a bad thing, I'm not saying otherwise. It monkey-wrenched the hell out of the peace process. But just blaming the Palestinian voters for doing it doesn't solve the issue. Nor does it do any good to call someone an "Islamist" just for pointing that out

Because the next two sentences are:

In other words, let the Palestinians vote Hamas into power, let the Egyptians vote the Muslim Brotherhood into power, let the Algerians vote the FIS into power.

Someone needs to explain to Aslan that democracy is not the same as one man, one vote. Regardless, when he talks about "promoting democracy," he's promoting Islamist parties -- simple as that.

1. Learn to use the quote function.

2. You're right. FOOK democracy!!

/

1029 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 10:35:32am

re: #846 kamala

Ummm... see #843.

You lost the quote war. Stand down.

1030 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 10:36:17am

re: #849 lostlakehiker

Not. While Japan committed atrocities during WW2, including effective biological attacks against Chinese civilians, their kamikazes were a legitimate means of war.

OK, the kamikaze are off the hook! The regular Japanese Army, OTOH...

1031 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 10:37:01am

re: #854 NJDhockeyfan

The Pakistani guy speaking is known as Comrade Shahid. You can see his picture on the homepage of the Worker's World Party. What a fucking crackpot!

Comrade Shahid.

Sounds like a death-metal album title.

1032 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 10:37:45am

re: #856 Aceofwhat?

There are fundamental differences. Scale, for one.

With regard to brutality, there are very few differences. Perhaps you might ask her for a clarification.

Me, i highly doubt that any established lizard (i.e. non-sock, non-troll) believes that an IRA bomb is somehow less evil than any other terrorist bomb.

I'd like to think so, Ace, but this thread...dunno.

1033 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 10:39:51am

re: #862 cliffster

I think it was a reaction to the general moral equivalence sentiment which is becoming increasingly common. Like I said, it's fashionable to say that Americans, or the West, are just as bad as people in other areas. Which is stupid.

No, I think it's a reaction to the mere suggestion that Islamic fundamentalist terror is not special, or different, or worse, than a whole hell of a lot of other terror and violence.

Calling that moral equivalence doesn't make it so.

1034 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 10:56:04am

re: #1032 SanFranciscoZionist

I'd like to think so, Ace, but this thread...dunno.

I haven't looked through the whole thread.
But what I said before - that some folks' pro-Israel, anti-terrorism stance has morphed into a full-out anti-Islam, anti-Muslim stance - seems to be truer and truer all the time. Or maybe, they were anti-Islam, anti-Muslim all along, and events gave them cover that they no longer have.

What a mess.

1035 CuriousLurker  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:07:15am

re: #1032 SanFranciscoZionist

I'd like to think so, Ace, but this thread...dunno.

re: #1034 reine.de.tout

But what I said before - that some folks' pro-Israel, anti-terrorism stance has morphed into a full-out anti-Islam, anti-Muslim stance - seems to be truer and truer all the time. Or maybe, they were anti-Islam, anti-Muslim all along, and events gave them cover that they no longer have.

Good to know it's not just my imagination.

1036 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:14:42am

re: #1035 CuriousLurker

re: #1034 reine.de.tout

Good to know it's not just my imagination.

No, it's not your imagination.
It's very very distressing. I can't talk rationally to a lot of people about this. It's just impossible. I mean, I feel like I'm rational; but they are panicked; and I bet they would be unable to articulate what it is they're panicked about.


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