Saudi Prince: ‘I Called Murdoch, and Fox Changed Their Headline Within Minutes’

Media • Views: 4,716

There’s quite a bit of talk lately about the fact that Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal is a major shareholder in Fox News, and a business partner of Rupert Murdoch. Some have questioned whether it really matters, though, if the Prince hasn’t tried to influence Fox’s news coverage.

Well, in 2005, LGF noted an interview with Alwaleed bin Talal at Middle East Online, in which he boasted about getting a Fox headline changed with a single call to Rupert Murdoch.

Al-Walid also criticised US media which he described as “in general … pro-Israel.” But he also accused Arabs of not being pro-active in fighting the allegedly slanted media.

He said that during last month’s street protests in France, the US television network Fox — owned by Rupert Murdoch’s News Corporation in which Al-Walid himself has shares — ran a banner saying: “Muslim riots.”

“I picked up the phone and called Murdoch… (and told him) these are not Muslim riots, these are riots out of poverty,” he said.

“Within 30 minutes, the title was changed from Muslim riots to civil riots.”

Jump to bottom

220 comments
1 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:04:15am

I'm with Stupid...

2 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:04:55am

Evil...

3 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:05:14am

Evipid.

4 enoughalready  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:06:19am

We need a completely new word for it. Sorry. Evil and/or stupid just doesn't cover it.

5 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:06:29am

Stuvil?

6 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:06:55am

Remember to retweet these articles, folks. Get the word out.

7 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:07:29am

re: #3 JasonA

re: #5 JasonA

What are ya, some kind of random Pokemon generator???

8 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:08:01am

re: #4 enoughalready

We need a completely new word for it. Sorry. Evil and/or stupid just doesn't cover it.

"Fox News" says it all...

9 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:09:56am

re: #8 ralphieboy

"Fox News" says it all...

"Fair and Saudi Funded."

10 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:10:36am

re: #6 Charles

Remember to retweet these articles, folks. Get the word out.

Done. Though I know nothing about what hashtags to use. I added #tcot.

11 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:12:42am

That's curious. I've always thought the US and world media to be rather biased in favor of Arab politics.

12 Interesting Times  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:13:27am

re: #6 Charles

You know how you use that "special photo" for nearly all Pam Geller posts? I propose this one for articles about Fox News :)

13 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:13:30am

As Nirvana put it, Stupid and Contagious.

14 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:14:02am

re: #12 publicityStunted

You know how you use that "special photo" for nearly all Pam Geller posts? I propose this one for articles about Fox News :)

Brilliant.

15 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:15:20am

re: #6 Charles

Remember to retweet these articles, folks. Get the word out.

Excellent post.

One also has to wonder about the cynicism of a Saudi prince profiting from a network that bashes Muslims 24/7.

Let's be clear, the Saudi prince is as amoral as Gingrich and I would not be surprised if he does have all sorts of very unsavory ties. But, that does not mitigate the fact that he is partners with Murdoch and a friend of W. Bush.
It only makes the whole thing stink even more.

Saddam Hussein was our buddy once too. This is all the sort of crap that goes around in the oil patch.

16 Big Steve  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:16:17am

re: #6 Charles

Remember to retweet these articles, folks. Get the word out.

Could you bear with an old guy here and explain what retweeting is and how to do it or alternatively point me to a link on the subject here.

17 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:18:43am

re: #15 LudwigVanQuixote

I once had a prominent Bay Street(Canadian Wall street) stock broker/ financial adviser address a class at my school. I wasn't even in the class, it was just recommended I meet him... he highly advised investing in sets. Example he used was Philip-Morris, Blue Cross/Blue Shield and some chain of funeral homes in Texas/the south. Cover all your bases.

18 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:19:18am

From today:

Image: Saualwaleed.jpg

By ARAB NEWS

Published: Aug 24, 2010 00:05 Updated: Aug 24, 2010 00:05

RIYADH: Rotana Holding Chairman Prince Alwaleed headed recently a board of directors meeting attended by News Corporation executives.

The meeting focused on the latest developments at Rotana and News Corporation, and ways to further strengthen the strategic corporate alliance between Rotana and News Corp. Alwaleed holds a strong presence in the media industry throughout the Arab world. Rotana Group recently won the third FM radio license bid in the Kingdom at a cost of SR67 million.

19 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:20:00am

re: #1 ralphieboy

re: #2 Thanos

re: #3 JasonA

re: #4 enoughalready

Well, there are some other things with evil and stupid.

Don't forget arrogant enough to be so cock sure of themselves when they say evil and stupid things.

Don't forget condescending enough to feel they can insult everyone else's intelligence with obvious knuckle headed lies and ignorance.

Don't forget ignorant enough to not even realize how stupid they are being.

20 Interesting Times  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:22:29am

re: #15 LudwigVanQuixote

One also has to wonder about the cynicism of a Saudi prince profiting from a network that bashes Muslims 24/7.

Maybe he feels their 24/7 pushing of climate change denial makes up for it.

21 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:22:33am

re: #18 wrenchwench
I assume He's the one at the end of the table sitting in
the Highchair!

22 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:24:04am

re: #21 reloadingisnotahobby

I assume He's the one at the end of the table sitting in
the Highchair!

Yup, the one who resembles Fr. Guido Sarducci.

23 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:24:19am

re: #21 reloadingisnotahobby

I assume He's the one at the end of the table sitting in
the Highchair!

I'm not impressed.
Where's the spikes?
The skulls?
The fire?

24 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:26:25am

re: #22 wrenchwench

re: #23 Varek Raith

Has to have a TALL seat so he can look down on everyone....

25 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:27:16am

re: #24 reloadingisnotahobby

re: #23 Varek Raith

Has to have a TALL seat so he can look down on everyone...

Does his throne at least have a button to send the other chairs into bottomless pits???

26 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:27:56am

Please note also that the Wahhabists behind the corrupt Saudi royal family are just as opposed to a moderate American Islam as Pamela Geller. The kind of Muslim-hatred Fox promotes is good for reinforcing the idea that America is the enemy of the Islamic world.

27 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:28:16am

re: #20 publicityStunted

Maybe he feels their 24/7 pushing of climate change denial makes up for it.

Ouch. You are likely very much on to something there.

Come to think of it, You are likely dead on the money.

28 jaunte  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:28:29am

re: #15 LudwigVanQuixote

Excellent post.

One also has to wonder about the cynicism of a Saudi prince profiting from a network that bashes Muslims 24/7.


It's a useful strategy for the super-rich to keep the underclasses at each others throats.

29 jamesfirecat  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:29:28am

re: #25 Varek Raith

Does his throne at least have a button to send the other chairs into bottomless pits???

I'm still alive, just very badly burnt!


YOU SHOT ME! YOU SHOT ME RIGHT IN THE ARM!

30 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:29:41am

re: #15 LudwigVanQuixote


Saddam Hussein was our buddy once too. This is all the sort of crap that goes around in the oil patch.

This is worth repeating again and again until people get it. The "bad country" that we want to bomb/invade/disrupt is last year, or next year's, "good country" that is absolutely critical to our long-term interests. Why, breaking off ties with that "good country" would be "economic suicide" and/or "an unthinkable betrayal of our allies".

People are so naive sometimes.

31 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:30:07am

re: #29 jamesfirecat

I'm still alive, just very badly burnt!

YOU SHOT ME! YOU SHOT ME RIGHT IN THE ARM!

Hehehehe, that's the scene I was thinking of...

32 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:31:47am

re: #26 Charles

Please note also that the Wahhabists behind the corrupt Saudi royal family are just as opposed to a moderate American Islam as Pamela Geller. The kind of Muslim-hatred Fox promotes is good for reinforcing the idea that America is the enemy of the Islamic world.

Absolutely. This is why Hamas jumped on this bandwagon too from the other side.

Extremists need enemies, otherwise the whole message of how oppressed they are falls short in getting new adherents.

The core message of both the teabags and Hamas is one of ginned up resentment based on fear and of hurting a hated oppressor.

When that hated oppressor lives up to high ideals and bridges are made, it cuts to the core of the argument. In a bizarre symbiotic way Hamas and the Teabags are each other's greatest gift.

33 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:31:59am

re: #6 Charles

Remember to retweet these articles, folks. Get the word out.

What are the # tags we should be using?

34 deranged cat  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:37:20am

re: #16 Big Steve

Could you bear with an old guy here and explain what retweeting is and how to do it or alternatively point me to a link on the subject here.

It's referring to Twitter. when you post something, it's called a "tweet", and to post what other people have written is called "retweet". there is also a "retweet" button that makes it easier.
you can go here for some FAQs about Twitter
and if im being trolled, damn you.

35 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:39:04am

In the course of all of this hullaballo about park 51. Iran began fueling the Bushehr reactor.

Few have noticed.

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

This is how the State Dept convinced Israel that Iran is one year from a nuke.

It is a pretty straightforward calculation to figure out how much plutonium will be produced per day in such a facility. This is very straight forward physics.

The clock is absolutely now ticking.

36 Big Steve  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:39:59am

re: #34 deranged cat

It's referring to Twitter. when you post something, it's called a "tweet", and to post what other people have written is called "retweet". there is also a "retweet" button that makes it easier.
you can go here for some FAQs about Twitter
and if im being trolled, damn you.

not trolling you.....I can honestly say I have never tweeted, or if I have I blamed it on the dog. Seriously so to "retweet" one has to have a twitter account to begin with?

37 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:40:29am

re: #33 Obdicut

What are the # tags we should be using?

I use:
#tcot - top conservatives on twitter
#tlot - top liberals on twitter
#p2 - progressives

If I have space and want to have some fun (and depending on the topic), I might add:
#teaparty
or
#atlasshrugs

in case anyone is looking for those items.

38 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:40:38am

re: #35 LudwigVanQuixote

I wonder how the whole Russian-operated will complicate matters once this thing is, you know, a crater.

39 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:40:43am

re: #16 Big Steve

Don't listen to that crazy cat...
Goggle "Rockin Robin"..
or Thumper,ie Twitterpated!!
Thank me later!!///

40 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:41:27am

Just for emphasis:

In the course of all of this hullaballo about park 51. Iran began fueling the Bushehr reactor.

Few have noticed.

It is a very straightforward calculation to figure out how much plutonium will be produced per day in such a facility. This is very straight forward physics.

The clock is absolutely now ticking.

We have one year or less to do something.

41 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:41:30am

re: #36 Big Steve

not trolling you...I can honestly say I have never tweeted, or if I have I blamed it on the dog. Seriously so to "retweet" one has to have a twitter account to begin with?

Yeah. You can start a dummy email account on gmail and use that to register if staying anonymous is important to you.

42 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:41:37am

re: #20 publicityStunted

Maybe he feels their 24/7 pushing of climate change denial makes up for it.

He doesn't give a damn what happens to American Muslims, or Muslims in the kind of little countries that the US goes to war against. He and his are going to be fine and dandy regardless.

Saudi princes really are scum.

43 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:42:13am

re: #42 SanFranciscoZionist

He doesn't give a damn what happens to American Muslims, or Muslims in the kind of little countries that the US goes to war against. He and his are going to be fine and dandy regardless.

Saudi princes really are scum.

I'm surprised Charles didn't dust off "oil tick" for good measure.

44 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:42:41am

re: #36 Big Steve

Yup, its like the telephone game. Everyone who 'listens' (follows) Charles sees his tweets. If I 'retweet', im basically repeating them for everyone who listens to me. Now you can also mark your tweets as pertaining to a certain topic, and some people follow topics instead of people. So we'll all mark Charles's tweets as a few relevant topics before repeating them, to help ensure they reach as wide of an audience as possible.

45 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:42:42am

re: #40 LudwigVanQuixote

Just for emphasis:

In the course of all of this hullaballo about park 51. Iran began fueling the Bushehr reactor.

Few have noticed.

It is a very straightforward calculation to figure out how much plutonium will be produced per day in such a facility. This is very straight forward physics.

The clock is absolutely now ticking.

We have one year or less to do something.

Damn.

46 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:42:52am

re: #40 LudwigVanQuixote

Any suggestions??

47 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:43:16am

Soros, Koch, Murdoch, Alwaleed bin Talal et al. It's all about billionaire power freaks messing with people's minds to keep the $ flowing into their pockets. They fucking get rich by promoting hatred and chaos. I'm starting see things in 4D again, and it feels good.

One-eyed men aren't really reigning
They just march in place until
Two-eyed men with mystery training
Finally feel the power fill
Three-eyed men are not complaining.
They can yo-yo where they will
They slip inside this house as they pass by.

48 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:43:56am

re: #37 reine.de.tout

Thanks!

49 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:44:06am

re: #38 JasonA

I wonder how the whole Russian-operated will complicate matters once this thing is, you know, a crater.

It will likely insure that it does not become a crater. After a year of operation the plutonium will be there, produced in the spent fuel, and the Iranis will just take it.

Do you think the Russians are going to take the spent fuel back to Russia for processing?

50 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:45:05am

re: #49 LudwigVanQuixote

It will likely insure that it does not become a crater. After a year of operation the plutonium will be there, produced in the spent fuel, and the Iranis will just take it.

Do you think the Russians are going to take the spent fuel back to Russia for processing?

I'll say no.

51 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:45:13am

re: #35 LudwigVanQuixote

In the course of all of this hullaballo about park 51. Iran began fueling the Bushehr reactor.

Few have noticed.

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

This is how the State Dept convinced Israel that Iran is one year from a nuke.

It is a pretty straightforward calculation to figure out how much plutonium will be produced per day in such a facility. This is very straight forward physics.

The clock is absolutely now ticking.

The current agreement forces Iran to return all spent fuel to Russia, and it's going to be monitored very carefully. However, if Iran withdraws from the NPT and starts processing the spent fuel, it could indeed be used for weapons.

Withdrawing from the NPT would be a trigger for serious actions, though. There have been reports that Israel is preparing a strike; if Iran actually withdrew from the treaty, that strike would be guaranteed.

52 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:49:50am

re: #37 reine.de.tout

I use:
#tcot - top conservatives on twitter
#tlot - top liberals on twitter
#p2 - progressives

If I have space and want to have some fun (and depending on the topic), I might add:
#teaparty
or
#atlasshrugs

in case anyone is looking for those items.

There's a new one that appears with #tcot a lot: #ocra. Any idea what it means?

53 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:50:07am

re: #51 Charles

Oh yeah!
The treaty!!
I feel better...Iran's never "Crawfished" on an
agreement...right?
They're doomed if they do!

54 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:50:48am

re: #52 wrenchwench

There's a new one that appears with #tcot a lot: #ocra. Any idea what it means?

"Organized Conservatives to Retake America" is what I found.

Sounds kludgy.

55 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:51:56am

re: #54 Obdicut

"Organized Conservatives to Retake America" is what I found.

Sounds kludgy.

And creepy.

56 Interesting Times  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:52:43am

re: #40 LudwigVanQuixote

It is a very straightforward calculation to figure out how much plutonium will be produced per day in such a facility. This is very straight forward physics.

The clock is absolutely now ticking.

We have one year or less to do something.

From 2009: U.S. Rejected Aid for Israeli Raid on Iranian Nuclear Site

WASHINGTON — President Bush deflected a secret request by Israel last year for specialized bunker-busting bombs it wanted for an attack on Iran’s main nuclear complex and told the Israelis that he had authorized new covert action intended to sabotage Iran’s suspected effort to develop nuclear weapons, according to senior American and foreign officials.

57 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:52:55am

re: #51 Charles

The current agreement forces Iran to return all spent fuel to Russia, and it's going to be monitored very carefully. However, if Iran withdraws from the NPT and starts processing the spent fuel, it could indeed be used for weapons.

Withdrawing from the NPT would be a trigger for serious actions, though. There have been reports that Israel is preparing a strike; if Iran actually withdrew from the treaty, that strike would be guaranteed.

These are exactly the same sorts of measures that were in place with the North Korean reactor we built.

Running a reactor will make plutonium. There is no way around that. Neutrons do what neutrons do.

Once it has run long enough, the plutonium is there.

Iran, like North Korea, will wait until the plutonium is built up and then simply tell the Russians to leave and shut down the cameras. Then they will extract the plutonium.

We have seen this before. I am less than confident that the Russians will monitor their reactor better than the US did with the one in North Korea.

They are likely to and happy to sell the plutonium to the Iran. Certainly the threat of doing so gives them leverage.

Either way, the Russians will not stop the Iranis from taking the plutonium once it is there.

The UN will not intervene.

We have one year starting now.

58 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:53:06am

re: #52 wrenchwench

There's a new one that appears with #tcot a lot: #ocra. Any idea what it means?

It's a far right tag: Organized Conservative Resistance Alliance.

59 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:53:59am

re: #58 Charles

It's a far right tag: Organized Conservative Resistance Alliance.

Even creepier.

60 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:54:55am

re: #51 Charles

Further, Iran's public withdrawal from NPT will coincide with their first successful test.

The scenario you painted, seems very unrealistic to me.

61 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:55:46am

re: #40 LudwigVanQuixote

Just for emphasis:

In the course of all of this hullaballo about park 51. Iran began fueling the Bushehr reactor.

Few have noticed.

It is a very straightforward calculation to figure out how much plutonium will be produced per day in such a facility. This is very straight forward physics.

The clock is absolutely now ticking.

We have one year or less to do something.

That may be true but when is the next mosque rally in NYC? What did Sarah Palin say today? What's the latest on Tiger's divorce?

Lets keep up to date with the more important stories first!

62 Cineaste  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:55:50am

re: #51 Charles

The current agreement forces Iran to return all spent fuel to Russia, and it's going to be monitored very carefully. However, if Iran withdraws from the NPT and starts processing the spent fuel, it could indeed be used for weapons.

Don't tell John Bolton that. It'll totally mess up his plans to bomb Iran.

/

63 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:56:20am

re: #57 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually, I think Iran will keep playing the same games -- they won't abruptly grab all the plutonium, they'll play along and return it legally for a while, then start fudging and dragging their heels, losing shipments, etc.

That's how Iran has gotten to this point, and they're not going to risk everything by openly provoking Israel to strike. Yet.

64 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 11:59:31am

re: #62 Cineaste

Don't tell John Bolton that. It'll totally mess up his plans to bomb Iran.

/

Yup. It would be much better that we allow Iran to start making nuclear bombs.

/

65 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:00:16pm

The " Vertically Challenged One" Has been provoking shit for a decade? now!
Not knowing the chain of command stucture in Iran...
I hope the little Worm is no where near a "Button"any time in the future!

66 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:01:01pm

re: #63 Charles

A run for the bomb will bring Israel upon them. They know it too. No, this will wear on for the better part of a decade, and time will only cloud the issue. Exactly what they want. If they're 'shown' to be responsible with nuclear power, some will use it as an argument that they'll be responsible with the bomb too.

67 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:02:31pm

re: #51 Charles

However, if Iran withdraws from the NPT and starts processing the spent fuel, it could indeed be used for weapons.

Pure plutonium has very few other uses. The Iranis do not have a plutonium reactor in the works either for a fuel cycle.

Withdrawing from the NPT would be a trigger for serious actions, though.

I am confident that someone will debate in the UN about the language of a harshly written letter.

There have been reports that Israel is preparing a strike; if Iran actually withdrew from the treaty, that strike would be guaranteed.

If Iran, started processing the rods - assuming the Russians or whomever were honest about it when they started, Israel would be forced to strike.

This assumes that they know everywhere to strike and have the bunker busting capabilities to strike. It also assumes the Russians don't give the IRanis the new air defense missiles and that the Israelis have the men, planes and ordinance for multiple, strikes that "make the rubble bounce."

If Israel had the F-22 or the F-35 in large numbers, perhaps. However, they might get the first F-35's by 2015.

We have one year.

68 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:03:16pm

re: #63 Charles

Actually, I think Iran will keep playing the same games -- they won't abruptly grab all the plutonium, they'll play along and return it legally for a while, then start fudging and dragging their heels, losing shipments, etc.

That's how Iran has gotten to this point, and they're not going to risk everything by openly provoking Israel to strike. Yet.

OK. I see that.

That gives us two years max.

69 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:03:55pm

re: #52 wrenchwench

There's a new one that appears with #tcot a lot: #ocra. Any idea what it means?

Nope.
Maybe some folks think #tcot is getting "spammed", and so they made a new tag?

70 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:04:45pm

re: #63 Charles

Actually, I think Iran will keep playing the same games -- they won't abruptly grab all the plutonium, they'll play along and return it legally for a while, then start fudging and dragging their heels, losing shipments, etc.

That's how Iran has gotten to this point, and they're not going to risk everything by openly provoking Israel to strike. Yet.

Agreed, they will see what they can get away with first.

71 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:05:22pm

re: #54 Obdicut

re: #58 Charles


I should catch up before replying to people then.
#orca is going on my list of regulars.

72 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:06:23pm

re: #71 reine.de.tout

re: #58 Charles

I should catch up before replying to people then.
#orca is going on my list of regulars.

You're going to start tweeting to whales?

/

73 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:06:42pm

re: #71 reine.de.tout

re: #58 Charles

I should catch up before replying to people then.
#orca is going on my list of regulars.

#ocra

Killer Whales have nothing to do with this, hun.

74 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:07:02pm

re: #71 reine.de.tout

re: #58 Charles

I should catch up before replying to people then.
#orca is going on my list of regulars.

No, no. You want Organized Conservative Resistance Alliance, not the Sea World one!

/#ocra, like the slimy vegetable

75 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:07:18pm

re: #72 oaktree

You're going to start tweeting to whales?

/

They closer to dolphins than whales, actually.

/geek

76 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:07:35pm

re: #72 oaktree

re: #73 JasonA

Oh, har-de-har-har.

That's oCra, not oRca.
It's a vegetable.

77 deranged cat  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:08:12pm

re: #36 Big Steve

not trolling you...I can honestly say I have never tweeted, or if I have I blamed it on the dog. Seriously so to "retweet" one has to have a twitter account to begin with?

what everyone else said. sign up for Twitter, follow Charles and retweet his stuff! i mean tbh, if you don't want to you don't have to :P

78 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:08:12pm

re: #76 reine.de.tout

re: #73 JasonA

Oh, har-de-har-har.

That's oCra, not oRca.
It's a vegetable.

We know that, but you spelled t wrong in your reply. :P

79 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:08:17pm

re: #74 wrenchwench

No, no. You want Organized Conservative Resistance Alliance, not the Sea World one!

/#ocra, like the slimy vegetable

uh-oh, my mistake, mea culpa oaktree & jason.
Yes, that's what I want.

80 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:08:29pm

re: #76 reine.de.tout

re: #73 JasonA

Oh, har-de-har-har.

That's oCra, not oRca.
It's a vegetable.

It's a floor wax!
It's a dessert topping!

81 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:08:40pm

re: #72 oaktree

You're going to start tweeting to whales?

/

No...A green leafy vegetable!/

82 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:09:03pm

re: #79 reine.de.tout

uh-oh, my mistake, mea culpa oaktree & jason.
Yes, that's what I want.

Yep. The Gumbo Alliance would be #okra as an alternative...

;)

83 shades  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:09:21pm

I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, to find there is gambling in this casino!

84 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:09:22pm

Israel isn't going to strike at the Iranian facilities. They've decided, like we did, that the bad PR it would bring down is worse than the risk that Iran will actually use a nuclear missile. Iran will have a workable missile in less than a year and the US won't know about it until they decide to either test it or tell us about it.

30 years from now, after the rest of the ME gets their hands on nuclear rounds to keep up with Iran, we'll look back at this era with a lot of regret.

85 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:09:26pm

re: #82 oaktree

Yep. The Gumbo Alliance would be #okra as an alternative...

;)

oh, hell, I'll never get it right.
I may have to skip that one.

86 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:12:08pm

re: #26 Charles

The fundies always hate the moderates. In fact we are more dangerous to them than their declared enemies. Their enemies serve them well to rile up the base. As in what would some of the Arab states have to bitch about without Israel?

87 mikefromArlington  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:12:32pm

What would it take to get the major networks to latch onto these Prince/Fox stories.

I'd like to hear the Prince comment on his being used as anti-Muslim propaganda.

88 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:13:05pm

re: #63 Charles

Actually, I think Iran will keep playing the same games -- they won't abruptly grab all the plutonium, they'll play along and return it legally for a while, then start fudging and dragging their heels, losing shipments, etc.

That's how Iran has gotten to this point, and they're not going to risk everything by openly provoking Israel to strike. Yet.

Do you know if there is anything in the agreement preventing them from fueling the reactor themselves once they have the capability?

89 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:13:33pm

re: #84 RogueOne

Israel isn't going to strike at the Iranian facilities. They've decided, like we did, that the bad PR it would bring down is worse than the risk that Iran will actually use a nuclear missile. Iran will have a workable missile in less than a year and the US won't know about it until they decide to either test it or tell us about it.

30 years from now, after the rest of the ME gets their hands on nuclear rounds to keep up with Iran, we'll look back at this era with a lot of regret.

30 years is the timescale for things to get really bad in terms of food and water for large portions of the Middle East due to AGW.

Starving, thirsty religious fantics with nuclear weapons is the scenario you just painted.

90 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:14:38pm

re: #89 LudwigVanQuixote

30 years is the timescale for things to get really bad in terms of food and water for large portions of the Middle East due to AGW.

Starving, thirsty religious fantics with nuclear weapons is the scenario you just painted.

The family atomics and then the giant sand worms...

91 jaunte  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:17:20pm

re: #76 reine.de.tout

re: #73 JasonA

Oh, har-de-har-har.

That's oCra, not oRca.
It's a vegetable.

Pod people!

92 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:17:22pm

re: #40 LudwigVanQuixote

Just for emphasis:
In the course of all of this hullaballo about park 51. Iran began fueling the Bushehr reactor.
Few have noticed.
It is a very straightforward calculation to figure out how much plutonium will be produced per day in such a facility. This is very straight forward physics.
The clock is absolutely now ticking.
We have one year or less to do something.

Ticking? Baloney... The alarm has been screaming away ever since NK detonated one or two, and still has an entirely undamaged set of facilities including launch facilities. I see no reason to expect any meaningful reaction at all.

93 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:17:50pm

re: #89 LudwigVanQuixote

They're going to end up destroying themselves and then we'll all be back to worrying about a nuclear winter again. Look at all the underhanded dirty dealing that went on during the US/Soviet cold war and imagine that with a big helping of religious fanatacism and the promise of 72 virgins for everyone and I can see it getting very ugly.

94 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:18:07pm

re: #88 Radicchio ad Absurdum

Do you know if there is anything in the agreement preventing them from fueling the reactor themselves once they have the capability?

Their stated mission of all that uranium processing is to be able to fuel the reactors.

95 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:21:53pm

re: #92 Rightwingconspirator

Don't forgot that the norks hold Seoul hostage. Iran doesn't have that kind of leverage yet.

96 abolitionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:22:16pm

re: #86 Rightwingconspirator

The fundies always hate the moderates. In fact we are more dangerous to them than their declared enemies. Their enemies serve them well to rile up the base. As in what would some of the Arab states have to bitch about without Israel?

High-school dances, co-ed churches beaches and swimming pools, bikinis, beauty contests, music, malt shops , clean-shaven men..
/Qutb

97 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:22:47pm

re: #83 shades

I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, to find there is gambling in this casino!

Your winnings, sir.

98 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:23:09pm

re: #96 abolitionist

High-school dances, co-ed churches beaches and swimming pools, bikinis, beauty contests, music, malt shops , clean-shaven men..
/Qutb

You forgot mens hair cuts.

99 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:23:56pm

re: #92 Rightwingconspirator

re: #93 RogueOne

Mutually assured destruction does not work on those who feel they get virgins to f*ck in heaven.

I want to make a sharp distinction here between the brutal theocracy in Iran and other Muslim states and educated Muslims in America.

These two groups ought not be confused any more than confusing snake dancers with run of the mill Presbyterians.

That goes both ways.

Just as we should never deny other Americans their rights, we simply should not forget the vastly different world and world view that obtains in places like Iran or Saudi Arabia.

Sunni and Shia with atomic weapons pointed at each other will use them. These are regimes where it is normal to take the kids to a beheading or stoning. Iran sent children to clear minefields by stomping on the mines.

If you add the serious pressures of lack of food and water coming to them before us due to AGW, you guarantee their use.

WE simply can not allow an Islamic arms race between Persians and Arabs.

100 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:24:28pm

re: #89 LudwigVanQuixote

30 years is the timescale for things to get really bad in terms of food and water for large portions of the Middle East due to AGW.

Starving, thirsty religious fantics with nuclear weapons is the scenario you just painted.

I call dibs on Vault 69.
/
Sorry, I know this is serious business. I just couldn't help injecting a tiny bit of humor.

101 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:25:12pm

re: #95 McSpiff

Don't forgot that the norks hold Seoul hostage. Iran doesn't have that kind of leverage yet.

Iran holds Iraq hostage.

Iran holds a huge amount of Europe's oil supply hostage.

The hard line in Iran wants to be the regional super power. The democratic movements in Iran do not hold the power.

102 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:26:58pm

re: #101 LudwigVanQuixote

While true, that doesn't stop military action against Iran today, or in the near future. The situation with Seoul makes any action against NK come at an EXTREMELY high price.

103 elbruce  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:27:00pm

re: #84 RogueOne

Iran will have a workable missile in less than a year and the US won't know about it until they decide to either test it or tell us about it.

If they don't test it, it won't be workable.

104 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:29:15pm

re: #102 McSpiff

While true, that doesn't stop military action against Iran today, or in the near future. The situation with Seoul makes any action against NK come at an EXTREMELY high price.

Absolutely. The price of stopping Iran is what holds us back. The price of not stopping them is seen as someone else's problem ten years from now.

At some point, America is going to have to learn that the way to handle avertable catastrophes is to prevent them in the first place rather than try to pick up the pieces later.

105 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:29:17pm

Iranian general: Teheran should hit enemy outside ME

The Islamic regime should prepare to retaliate in the Middle East and across the globe against any enemy attack, Iranian military advisor Maj. Gen. Seyed Yahya Rahim Safavi said on Tuesday according to a Fars News Agency report.

"Wisdom tells us that Iran's Armed Forced should prepare and strengthen themselves for all-out defense and retaliatory attacks on the enemies even outside the region by maintaining their full preparedness and boosting their combat capabilities," Safavi stated.

Safavi added that a US or Israeli attack was unlikely. "Americans and the Zionists are not in proper conditions to launch a military attack against Iran."

Safavi serves as a military adviser to Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. Khamenei also said last week that Teheran's response to an American attack would not be limited to the Middle East.

106 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:29:56pm

re: #79 reine.de.tout

Okra's disgusting anyway.

107 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:31:33pm

re: #104 LudwigVanQuixote

Yup, the situation with NK should come as a giant warning to deal with Iran today. Hell, even improved non-nuclear missiles would be bad enough.

108 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:32:27pm

re: #107 McSpiff

Yup, the situation with NK should come as a giant warning to deal with Iran today. Hell, even improved non-nuclear missiles would be bad enough.

Which they are working on feverishly. They are threatening Europe already with their missile envelope.

109 elbruce  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:36:31pm

re: #104 LudwigVanQuixote

At some point, America is going to have to learn that the way to handle avertable catastrophes is to prevent them in the first place rather than try to pick up the pieces later.

We're also going to have to learn that we don't have direct control over everything that happens in the world, and there are some events that we're going to have to work around and with rather than impotently flail at trying to put a halt to them. We can't just bomb or buy every outcome that we want.

110 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:37:22pm

re: #108 LudwigVanQuixote

Which they are working on feverishly. They are threatening Europe already with their missile envelope.

Exactly, I hate to say the nukes are a red herring with Iran, but they certainly aren't the only issue. Like you said previously, Iran wants to be a regional superpower in much the same manner Sadam did. I'm waiting to hear about the Iranian Air force making a large purchase from either the Chinese, or the Russians.

111 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:38:42pm

re: #99 LudwigVanQuixote

After the Cheonan incident uh, unprovoked murder I have as much concern about NK as I do Iran. More. They set one off already. And the lack of reaction set the stage for Iran to advance. And Syria too, with help from NK, if those reports are correct.

112 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:39:39pm

re: #103 elbruce

If they don't test it, it won't be workable.

Not sure how you get that conclusion. My point was we didn't even know anything about our semi-buddy India having a nuke until they set it off.

113 Taqyia2Me  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:39:50pm

re: #110 McSpiff

Exactly, I hate to say the nukes are a red herring with Iran, but they certainly aren't the only issue. Like you said previously, Iran wants to be a regional superpower in much the same manner Sadam did. I'm waiting to hear about the Iranian Air force making a large purchase from either the Chinese, or the Russians.

And that's the sunshiny bright optimistic view.
Damn.

114 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:40:21pm

re: #110 McSpiff

Exactly, I hate to say the nukes are a red herring with Iran, but they certainly aren't the only issue. Like you said previously, Iran wants to be a regional superpower in much the same manner Sadam did. I'm waiting to hear about the Iranian Air force making a large purchase from either the Chinese, or the Russians.

The nukes are not a red herring. The nukes with all the rest is check mate.

Europe might cower at a conventional strike, but a nuke is game over.

115 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:40:28pm

I don't know how reliable DEBKA's information is but this doesn't sound good if it's true.


Iran Guards chief secretly oversees war plans - in Damascus

Revolutionary Guards chief Gen. Mohamed Ali Jafari, who rarely leaves his country, paid a secret visit to Damascus a few hours before Tehran launched its first nuclear reactor at Bushehr Saturday, Aug. 21. With him were top Al Qods Brigades commanders in Lebanon, Iraq and the Palestinian territories. The group stayed only long enough to confer with Syrian president Bashar Assad and his military and intelligence chiefs on three topics:

1. The roles Syria and Hizballah will play in a potential Iranian military reprisal to a possible American or Israeli strike on its nuclear sites.

2. The probable repercussions of an Iranian decision to use Hizballah or pro-Iranian terrorists as proxies for a pre-emptive strike - or strikes - against Israel.

3. How Syria can help discourage the Persian Gulf and Saudi Arabia from their willingness to support a US or Israel attack on Iran with bases, intelligence assets and other means.

...debkafile's military sources add that Israel is taking very seriously the presence in Gen. Jafari's secret delegation to Damascus of two high-ranking IRGC Al Qods officers. They have been identified as Abu Mahdi Al-Muhandis, commander of Iran's terrorist and spy networks in Iraq, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, and Hassan Mahdavi, formally designated IRGC envoy to the Lebanese Hizballah, who was recently elevated to overall command of the Lebanese terrorist organization.

This promotion effectively changes the status of Hizballah, which is represented as a political force in Lebanon's parliament and government, from Tehran's surrogate to external arm of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps under the direct command of an al Qods officer - an ominous pointer to the goals Iran has set itself in a country bordering on northern Israel.

116 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:40:46pm

Drive By brain dump:

Ocra also seems to be favored by TN teapartiers and CoCC types.

KT if you are out there you have typo in your secret meeting page.

To Ludwig's point earlier -- in all this mosque we bicker back and forth the media has lost focus on the Teaparty wingnuts like Angle and Rand, could it be well crafted distraction? (no... the right's not that smart anymore since Rove's not pulling the strings...)

PZ Meyers is getting his chest cracked open today, if you like his blog Pharyngula stop by and wish him well.

Back to work now...

117 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:42:09pm

re: #114 LudwigVanQuixote

I can just *shudder* imagine France making use of their nuclear arsenal upon Iran after an attack on Europe, even if asymmetric in nature. A 9/11 in Paris might get a nuclear response.

118 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:44:16pm

re: #117 Rightwingconspirator

I can just *shudder* imagine France making use of their nuclear arsenal upon Iran after an attack on Europe, even if asymmetric in nature. A 9/11 in Paris might get a nuclear response.

You think the French have the stones to do that?

119 DaddyG  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:44:30pm

re: #76 reine.de.tout

re: #73 JasonA

Oh, har-de-har-har.

That's oCra, not oRca.
It's a vegetable.

Using of course a very loose definition of vegitable.

120 garhighway  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:45:10pm

re: #114 LudwigVanQuixote

The nukes are not a red herring. The nukes with all the rest is check mate.

Europe might cower at a conventional strike, but a nuke is game over.

I don't know about that. How many nukes did the Soviet Union have pointed at Europe? How did that work out?

I get that deterrence is a more slippery concept when applied to some countries in the Middle East, but the threat of turning an entire nation into a parking lot cannot be dismissed lightly, and that is what the Iranians would have to contemplate.

121 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:45:22pm

re: #113 Taqyia2Me

And that's the sunshiny bright optimistic view.
Damn.

I am generally an optimist, no bones about it. I'm just worried Iran will 'give up' its nuclear ambition, at least temporarily in exchange for the West accepting a conventional arms build up and domination of neighboring states. My issue with the Iranian Regime isn't nuclear weapons, its the Iranian Regime itself. Nuclear weapons might be a tool for them to meet their objectives, but I don't think its the only one. I think they might be going for a power play based off of Libya's example, at least in the short term.

122 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:46:11pm

re: #118 NJDhockeyfan

I do. Based on an explicit threat already made. Unlike the US they do not have rapid global conventional strike capacity. They do have nuclear reach.

123 elbruce  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:46:26pm

re: #112 RogueOne

If they don't test it, it won't be workable.


Not sure how you get that conclusion. My point was we didn't even know anything about our semi-buddy India having a nuke until they set it off.


It just seems to be a practical reality of both missiles and nukes that testing is a necessary part of the process. Untested weaponry is next to worthless, as the first test very rarely comes off as expected.

124 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:47:05pm

re: #115 NJDhockeyfan

I don't know how reliable DEBKA's information is but this doesn't sound good if it's true.


Iran Guards chief secretly oversees war plans - in Damascus

If I were Israel, Point 2 (Using Hezbollah as a proxy) would keep me awake at nights. IMO, Iran would be nuts to toss a nuclear missile at Israel but they could get "plausible deniability" if Hezbollah just happens to get their hands on a small nuclear device.

125 Kragar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:47:34pm

re: #118 NJDhockeyfan

You think the French have the stones to do that?

Yes. The French have been capable of launching very devastating campaigns when pressed.

126 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:47:41pm

re: #120 garhighway

That is a different chess game. The check mate is insuring that Europe and the West stay out of Iran's regional games.

127 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:48:16pm

re: #123 elbruce

Nuclear stockpiles disarm themselves. That's why we (or any nuke power) may need to test or lose some confidence in rebuilt warheads. AQ Khan has spread tested designs though so look out.

128 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:48:34pm

re: #121 McSpiff

Basically I can see the Nuclear Question having two negative outcomes

1. Iran gets the bomb.

2. Iran gets appeasement from the West because they don't get the bomb.

#2 is only marginally better in my eyes, and it in no way rules out #1. Only regime change can accomplish that.

129 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:49:34pm

re: #124 RogueOne

If I were Israel, Point 2 (Using Hezbollah as a proxy) would keep me awake at nights. IMO, Iran would be nuts to toss a nuclear missile at Israel but they could get "plausible deniability" if Hezbollah just happens to get their hands on a small nuclear device.

I would expect Hezbollah to get a few nukes once Iran starts making them. Is there any doubt about that?

130 darthstar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:50:53pm

Somehow, knowing that Fox is run, in part, by the Saudis makes a lot of sense.

131 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:51:45pm

re: #116 Thanos

KT if you are out there you have typo in your secret meeting page.

Thanks

132 garhighway  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:52:05pm

re: #129 NJDhockeyfan

I would expect Hezbollah to get a few nukes once Iran starts making them. Is there any doubt about that?

If you were Iran (and this assumes that they are rational) would you entrust one of those weapons to someone beyond your control, knowing that their use of the weapon might cause your nation to cease to exist?

133 abolitionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:52:12pm

re: #123 elbruce

Not sure how you get that conclusion. My point was we didn't even know anything about our semi-buddy India having a nuke until they set it off.


It just seems to be a practical reality of both missiles and nukes that testing is a necessary part of the process. Untested weaponry is next to worthless, as the first test very rarely comes off as expected.

Of Fat Man and Little Boy type devices, the latter was field tested in Japan.

134 garhighway  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:52:40pm

re: #126 LudwigVanQuixote

That is a different chess game. The check mate is insuring that Europe and the West stay out of Iran's regional games.

Great plan. Any ideas on how to do that?

135 abolitionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:53:20pm

Messed up the quoting. Last line is mine.

136 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:56:00pm

re: #132 garhighway

If you were Iran (and this assumes that they are rational) would you entrust one of those weapons to someone beyond your control, knowing that their use of the weapon might cause your nation to cease to exist?

The assumption that their leadership is "rational" is a hard argument to make. They could argue the nuclear device came from any number of places including russia or pakistan.

137 enoughalready  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:57:15pm

re: #118 NJDhockeyfan

You think the French have the stones to do that?

You better believe it. The whole cheese-eating surrender monkey thing has very little to do with reality. Check out how they dealt with the war in Algeria. They can be mean as hell without batting an eyelid.

138 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:57:41pm

re: #134 garhighway

Great plan. Any ideas on how to do that?

You completely misread me. Iran's game, and their checkmate is to be able to be a nucleear Godfather, that funds and supports terrorism and their proxy armies throught the ME, while being untouchable by the west.

Getting a nuke is checkmate for us, if they succeed.

139 darthstar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:58:07pm

re: #133 abolitionist


Of Fat Man and Little Boy type devices, the latter was field tested in Japan.

Speaking of these two...there's a cute facebook mockup of WWII here:
[Link: www.collegehumor.com...]

140 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:58:35pm

re: #134 garhighway

Great plan. Any ideas on how to do that?

A. Stop playing nice. Bush talked a good game but had no follow-thru and the Obama admin still has their hand out there waiting for someone to shake it.
B. Start pouring money into the opposition
C. Remove their proxy, syria, from the equation.

141 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:58:38pm

re: #132 garhighway

If you were Iran (and this assumes that they are rational) would you entrust one of those weapons to someone beyond your control, knowing that their use of the weapon might cause your nation to cease to exist?

The leaders of Iran are member of that 12 Imam cult. I think they will be expecting to be saved by the return of Mahdi after Israel has been destroyed. I do not think they understand the meaning of rational.

142 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:59:48pm

re: #137 enoughalready

You better believe it. The whole cheese-eating surrender monkey thing has very little to do with reality. Check out how they dealt with the war in Algeria. They can be mean as hell without batting an eyelid.

The french are bad asses....as long as their whipping up on unarmed africans and greenpeace hippies.

143 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:01:33pm

re: #142 RogueOne

PIMF, stupid typo.

144 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:03:44pm

re: #138 LudwigVanQuixote

It's not checkmate. It's just a worse 'game' after that.

Checkmate is the end of the game. Having a nuke doesn't really mean all that much, unless you're willing to be blown to oblivion yourself.

The main question is whether Iran's leaderships are actually religious fanatics of the type that don't mind dying to achieve a terrible evil-- as the Nazis didn't mind hurting their war effort in order to kill Jews-- or whether they're corrupt, evil, and cowardly, seeking self-preservation.

I think they're the latter. I hope they're the latter.

There is no way we will indefinitely be able to keep Iran, or any other nation with power and money, from having nuclear weapons. We couldn't stop North Korea, one of the poorest and most fucked-up nations, from getting them.

We need to, above all, seek to support Democracy and overthrow the Mullahs in Iran. We could blow up their reactor tomorrow and discover they'd bought a nuke from the Russians or one of the lost nukes floating around the next day. Then we would have a more unified Iran, defiant and nuclear.

I am very glad that I do not have to make decisions affecting things on this scale. The complexity of it is staggering.

145 enoughalready  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:05:22pm

re: #142 RogueOne

The french are bad asses...as long as their whipping up on unarmed africans and greenpeace hippies.

They learned the WW2 lesson the hard way. The military that they had didn't understand the tactical implications of what the germans were doing and they happened to be just down the road. No other country did either.

146 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:06:01pm

re: #144 Obdicut


We need to, above all, seek to support Democracy and overthrow the Mullahs in Iran.

I think the last thing anyone needs is for the US to unilaterally overthrow any more regimes. That's what caused the whole Mullah thing in the first place!

147 enoughalready  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:07:50pm

re: #141 NJDhockeyfan

The leaders of Iran are member of that 12 Imam cult. I think they will be expecting to be saved by the return of Mahdi after Israel has been destroyed. I do not think they understand the meaning of rational.

What is more likely - that they are suicidal maniacs that would risk everything in an all out war against Israel (which they could have done for YEARS using other weapons than the notoriously resource intensive nuclear option) or that they are rational and use aggressive rhetoric as a way of increasing influence and controlling the population.

Occams razor may be helpful here I think.

148 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:08:12pm

re: #145 enoughalready

They learned the WW2 lesson the hard way. The military that they had didn't understand the tactical implications of what the germans were doing and they happened to be just down the road. No other country did either.

Well they didn't learn their lessons from WWI with the Germans either. I hope they did learn after the 2nd time. I am rooting for them no matter what happens.

149 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:08:26pm

re: #146 iossarian

I think the last thing anyone needs is for the US to unilaterally overthrow any more regimes. That's what caused the whole Mullah thing in the first place!

I don't mean 'overthrow' in that sense. I mean support a democratic ouster of them.

Apologies for confusing language.

150 brucee  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:09:02pm

Maybe Pelosi was right and there should be an investigation of Fox and the opposition to mosque, not to prosecute but to clarify. It does look like some want America divided, insiders like the Koch, or outsiders like the Saudis.

151 enoughalready  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:09:59pm

re: #148 NJDhockeyfan

Well they didn't learn their lessons from WWI with the Germans either. I hope they did learn after the 2nd time. I am rooting for them no matter what happens.

You are aware that those wars were fought in very different ways. The whole idea behind the military installations built in France after the end of hostilities was to defend against an invasion of the WWI type. Cue new tactics. Maginot line = useless.

152 Big Steve  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:10:56pm

re: #150 brucee

insiders like the Koch

I see we have a new boogie man here at LGF.....those ballet donating, musuem supporting bastard Koch brothers.

153 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:11:03pm

re: #144 Obdicut

OT:
I thought of you when I read this last night:

North Carolina's Corrupted Crime Lab
[Link: reason.com...]


Greg Taylor served 16 years in prison after he was falsely convicted of murdering a prostitute in Raleigh, North Carolina. He was released in February by a special three-judge panel after it was discovered the blood police claimed to have found in his SUV wasn't blood at all. In the wake of that debacle, North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper ordered two retired FBI agents to conduct an investigation on the State Bureau of Investigation (SBI) crime lab. The report came out last week, and it is damning.

The report found that SBI agents withheld exculpatory evidence or distorted evidence in more than 230 cases over a 16-year period. Three of those cases resulted in execution. There was widespread lying, corruption, and pressure from prosecutors and other law enforcement officials on crime lab analysts to produce results that would help secure convictions.

154 prairiefire  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:12:04pm

re: #140 RogueOne

A. Stop playing nice. Bush talked a good game but had no follow-thru and the Obama admin still has their hand out there waiting for someone to shake it.
B. Start pouring money into the opposition
C. Remove their proxy, syria, from the equation.

The opposition is very oppressed. NPR interviewed a reporter who has been in Tehran. he said many of the opposition have been arrested and killed while in jail. The Iranians would only talk to him when they were hiking in the mountains, in very remote areas. They have been severely intimidated by the Iranian government.

155 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:12:38pm

re: #151 enoughalready

You are aware that those wars were fought in very different ways. The whole idea behind the military installations built in France after the end of hostilities was to defend against an invasion of the WWI type. Cue new tactics. Maginot line = useless.

I know but you would think as they watch the Nazis take over Germany they could have seen a repeat of Germany attacking them again.

156 BishopX  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:13:08pm

re: #136 RogueOne

Why is it so hard to believe the Iranian leadership is rational? Everything they've done makes sense.

Their goal is to become a regional power with an undisputed sphere of influence capable of protecting them from conventional threats. They fund Hamas and Hezbollah to keep The Sunni's off-balance and to distract the west. They fund insurgents in Iraq(and possibly Afganistan) to tie down the US and gain influence of their neighbors.

They want an ambigous nuclear progrom to makes the west take them seriously and to act as a deterent for conventional strikes.

Their anti-semetic rhetoric is pure propaganda aimed and gathering public support in the ME domestically, and also as a way of standing up to the US.

What are they doing (not saying, actually doing) to make you think the Iranian leadership is acting irrationally?

157 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:13:32pm

re: #153 RogueOne

I'm glad it got investigated.

If there's one thing an accused person should be able to rely on, it's the physical evidence. Having that tampered with is a gigantic subversion of justice in every way possible.

I hope against hope that we start prosecuting prosecutors.

158 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:14:07pm

re: #122 Rightwingconspirator

I do. Based on an explicit threat already made. Unlike the US they do not have rapid global conventional strike capacity. They do have nuclear reach.

If someone popped France, and especially Paris, with a nuke I would be really surprised if they did not respond in kind, or in more than kind.

Gallic pride, and the fact that there are very few countries (any?) whose citizens and government would show that level of restraint if their national capital and major cultural center got hit by a nuclear weapon.

159 enoughalready  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:14:15pm

re: #155 NJDhockeyfan

I know but you would think as they watch the Nazis take over Germany they could have seen a repeat of Germany attacking them again.

There's a really good book written by a french military historian about the struggle between the politicians who saw the threat and the military establishment who argued that their fixed installations would repel any aggression. It's a fascinating read, I'll try to look up the title for you if you are interested?

160 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:14:33pm

re: #153 RogueOne

OT:
I thought of you when I read this last night:

North Carolina's Corrupted Crime Lab
[Link: reason.com...]

The report found that SBI agents withheld exculpatory evidence or distorted evidence in more than 230 cases over a 16-year period. Three of those cases resulted in execution. There was widespread lying, corruption, and pressure from prosecutors and other law enforcement officials on crime lab analysts to produce results that would help secure convictions.

This is why we can not have the death penalty except in the most egregious and clear cases.

161 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:14:48pm

re: #157 Obdicut

I'm glad it got investigated.

If there's one thing an accused person should be able to rely on, it's the physical evidence. Having that tampered with is a gigantic subversion of justice in every way possible.

I hope against hope that we start prosecuting prosecutors.

Damn straight.

If anybody deserves the death penalty, it is corrupt prosecutors who have had people put to death based on fraudulent evidence.

162 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:15:09pm

re: #152 Big Steve

How are they 'boogie men', please?

Did you read this?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

163 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:15:28pm

re: #152 Big Steve

I see we have a new boogie man here at LGF...those ballet donating, musuem supporting bastard Koch brothers.

Did you even bother to read Charles' post a couple of days ago on a New Yorker piece about the Kochs?

Somehow, I don't think you did...

164 enoughalready  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:15:29pm

(and I'm really sorry for the horrendously off-topic discussion about french history)

165 sagehen  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:16:10pm

re: #73 JasonA

#ocra

Killer Whales have nothing to do with this, hun.

Of course not. It's a vegetable.

166 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:16:15pm

re: #149 Obdicut

I don't mean 'overthrow' in that sense. I mean support a democratic ouster of them.

Apologies for confusing language.

Thanks for clearing that up, but this goes to the root of why everyone else in the world dislikes/hates the US. Unless we're willing to properly engage with multinational bodies such as the UN, we can't just waltz around "supporting democratic ousters" of governments, and then act all surprised when demagogues in those countries come to power by pointing out the illegitimacy of a US-backed movement.

It amazes me that people don't get this simple point, even though it's happened time and time again. Even people who seem to otherwise get how shitty US foreign policy is still think that, if we just discretely put money into someone's Swiss bank account, NO-ONE WILL NOTICE OR CARE that we're influencing domestic policy.

167 prairiefire  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:16:56pm

re: #165 sagehen

Of course not. It's a vegetable.

with a "k"

168 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:17:17pm

re: #165 sagehen

Of course not. It's a vegetable.

I was replying to Reine, who spelled it #orca.

169 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:18:04pm

re: #144 Obdicut

Yea, but N. Korea didn't create nuclear weapons until after Clinton left, when Bush cut off the fuel deal we had with them. No fuel, then no weapons inspectors, so Jong iL kicked them out. If the inspectors stayed in, there's a much better chance they would not have acquired. The Republicans like to say it doesn't matter, but the weapon's inspections was a huge deterrent.

170 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:18:05pm

re: #161 Fozzie Bear

Damn straight.

If anybody deserves the death penalty, it is corrupt prosecutors who have had people put to death based on fraudulent evidence.

My dream reform of the death penalty is that, in order to execute someone, you have to find 10 people to sign up and agree that, if the conviction is later overturned, they will themselves be executed.

Should be easy, right?

171 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:18:37pm

re: #159 enoughalready

There's a really good book written by a french military historian about the struggle between the politicians who saw the threat and the military establishment who argued that their fixed installations would repel any aggression. It's a fascinating read, I'll try to look up the title for you if you are interested?

I would love to. I've been watching a lot of WWII programs on the Military Channel. I am totally fascinated by the strength & courage our troops had fighting the Germans & Japanese. I've met a few who fought in the battles and their stories are inspiring to hear.

172 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:19:11pm

On the topic of Iran, this vid is worth watching for those who have not yet seen it. It's only ~16 minutes.

Guards Of The Revolution

In this exclusive report, former senior members of the Revolutionary Guard offer a view from behind the scenes of the government following the disputed elections. A horrifying portrait from inside Iran's security institutions and prisons.

173 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:20:08pm

re: #164 enoughalready

(and I'm really sorry for the horrendously off-topic discussion about french history)

50 lashes with a crusty bagette!

174 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:20:17pm

Fucking Saudis.

175 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:20:22pm

re: #166 iossarian

I'm sorry, but I don't think that supporting democratic movements is necessarily a bad thing. I think that engaging Iranian democratic groups through groups like Doctors Without Borders, Journalists Without Borders, by helping keep proxys alive so that Iranians can access an unfiltered internet, are all helpful to the cause of democracy in Iran.

Iran is not a closed-off country like North Korea. It is accessible.

176 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:20:32pm

re: #169 marjoriemoon

Yea, but N. Korea didn't create nuclear weapons until after Clinton left, when Bush cut off the fuel deal we had with them. No fuel, then no weapons inspectors, so Jong iL kicked them out. If the inspectors stayed in, there's a much better chance they would not have acquired. The Republicans like to say it doesn't matter, but the weapon's inspections was a huge deterrent.

So the Norks got nukes because of George Bush? Clinton had nothing to do with it?

177 abolitionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:21:06pm

re: #156 BishopX

Why is it so hard to believe the Iranian leadership is rational? Everything they've done makes sense.
[snip]

Ayatollah Khomeini advocated (about 1980, iirc) that total destruction of Iran as the price of destroying Israel would be a good bargain. Subsequent leaders have echoed such madness in recent years.

178 Interesting Times  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:21:16pm

re: #157 Obdicut

If there's one thing an accused person should be able to rely on, it's the physical evidence. Having that tampered with is a gigantic subversion of justice in every way possible.

...which makes this ruling by the RATS (i.e. Roberts, Alito, Thomas, Scalia) and Anthony Kennedy all the more obscene:

Prisoners do not have a constitutional right to DNA testing after their conviction, the Supreme Court ruled yesterday, even though the technology provides an "unparalleled ability both to exonerate the wrongly convicted and to identify the guilty."

Disgusting, repugnant, and utterly vile. Worst supreme court ruling since Dred Scott.

179 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:21:44pm

re: #176 NJDhockeyfan

So the Norks got nukes because of George Bush? Clinton had nothing to do with it?

Basically yea.

Congress didn't like the fuel deal. They said Clinton was buying them off. So freakin what. Better to buy them off. Now look what they have.

180 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:22:11pm

re: #156 BishopX

If people are hoping the Iranian leadership likes living more than they're hoping for their virgins that means they have to believe there is a chance the Iranian leadership will actually use those weapons. It's easy for people like me sitting in the middle of Indiana to wonder about what percentage of a chance the Mullahs will lob a nuke since there is no chance they'll hit Indy but it's a much different gamble for someone sitting in Israel.

It isn't rational for Iran to continually poke Israel. It isn't rational for Iran to continually poke the US. It isn't gaining them anything. Where has their influence spread over the last 20 years? No where. They don't have to be as militant and obnoxious as they have been, they've chosen to behave that way. Look at China. Chinas sphere of influence has spread all over the globe while they quietly, and sometimes forcibly, enforce their will. China has turned itself into a world superpower without waking up every morning wondering what's the best way to piss off the US.

181 Big Steve  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:22:19pm

re: #162 Obdicut

re: #163 talon_262

Yes I read the entire article and if you read the comments you would see I commented. In short, I did not see ANYTHING in the article that indicated that the Koch's were doing anything other than exercising their 1st amendment rights, those same rights, that many of us here have been arguing vociferiously apply to the Park51 project.

182 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:22:59pm

re: #161 Fozzie Bear

Damn straight.

If anybody deserves the death penalty, it is corrupt prosecutors who have had people put to death based on fraudulent evidence.

You would love the laws of eidim zomemin in Jewish Law.

Eidim Zomemin are false witnesses. The penalty for such perjury in the Talmud is that the false witness receives the punishment that they were intending for another.

In a capital case, that makes for careful testimony.

183 enoughalready  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:23:28pm

re: #171 NJDhockeyfan

I will make a note and find the title for you as soon as I can, in the meantime there's a bit of interesting background here about the Maginot line and the alternatives that were put forward.

Now I will stop being off topic :) (for about three minutes before I find some other tangent to go off on)

184 iossarian  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:23:31pm

re: #175 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but I don't think that supporting democratic movements is necessarily a bad thing. I think that engaging Iranian democratic groups through groups like Doctors Without Borders, Journalists Without Borders, by helping keep proxys alive so that Iranians can access an unfiltered internet, are all helpful to the cause of democracy in Iran.

Iran is not a closed-off country like North Korea. It is accessible.

OK, I know that we see mostly eye-to-eye on this. DWB, Amnesty International, etc. are good ways of engaging, precisely because they don't come with the baggage of US foreign policy. My point was that it's self-defeating for the US government to try to directly support groups in places like Iran, because it immediately delegitimizes them.

185 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:23:54pm

re: #178 publicityStunted

Oh, that's not possible. I've been told on good authority that Thomas is the most libertarian of the judges. I'm sure he'd never vote for something like that.


///

186 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:23:55pm

re: #179 marjoriemoon

Basically yea.

Congress didn't like the fuel deal. They said Clinton was buying them off. So freakin what. Better to buy them off. Now look what they have.

After they signed an agreement with Clinton to stop their nuclear program they went ahead and did it anyway behind Clinton's back. How in the world is that Bush's fault?

187 Kragar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:24:33pm

re: #175 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but I don't think that supporting democratic movements is necessarily a bad thing. I think that engaging Iranian democratic groups through groups like Doctors Without Borders, Journalists Without Borders, by helping keep proxys alive so that Iranians can access an unfiltered internet, are all helpful to the cause of democracy in Iran.

Iran is not a closed-off country like North Korea. It is accessible.

There was an article a few years back about the one branch of the US Government that actually has very good ties with Iran is the DEA. Apparently the DEA and Iranian Drug Enforcement police actually have a rather good working relationship, even since 9/11 and the intervening years.

188 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:24:40pm

re: #181 Big Steve

re: #163 talon_262

Yes I read the entire article and if you read the comments you would see I commented. In short, I did not see ANYTHING in the article that indicated that the Koch's were doing anything other than exercising their 1st amendment rights, those same rights, that many of us here have been arguing vociferiously apply to the Park51 project.

And? You can exercise your first amendment rights in an irresponsible fashion. That's what they're being accused of doing.

What did you think people were accusing them of doing?

189 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:24:52pm

re: #183 enoughalready

I will make a note and find the title for you as soon as I can, in the meantime there's a bit of interesting background here about the Maginot line and the alternatives that were put forward.

Now I will stop being off topic :) (for about three minutes before I find some other tangent to go off on)

Being off topic is allowed here. ;)

190 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:25:27pm

re: #178 publicityStunted

Nonsense. They decided that if you want to change the situation, Congress should enact laws to deal with that situation. They weren't going to legislate from the Bench. So, if you're angry about that decision, get your representatives to enact legislative protections for those instances.

191 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:26:34pm

re: #156 BishopX

Why is it so hard to believe the Iranian leadership is rational? Everything they've done makes sense.

Their goal is to become a regional power with an undisputed sphere of influence capable of protecting them from conventional threats. They fund Hamas and Hezbollah to keep The Sunni's off-balance and to distract the west. They fund insurgents in Iraq(and possibly Afganistan) to tie down the US and gain influence of their neighbors.

They want an ambigous nuclear progrom to makes the west take them seriously and to act as a deterent for conventional strikes.

Their anti-semetic rhetoric is pure propaganda aimed and gathering public support in the ME domestically, and also as a way of standing up to the US.

What are they doing (not saying, actually doing) to make you think the Iranian leadership is acting irrationally?

As with the Third Reich, ignoring their actual words is an exercise in self-delusion and appeasement, and an invitation to disaster.

192 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:27:08pm

re: #186 NJDhockeyfan

After they signed an agreement with Clinton to stop their nuclear program they went ahead and did it anyway behind Clinton's back. How in the world is that Bush's fault?

Not exactly as I understand it. They were always attempting to reprocess plutonium. So was Sadaam Hussein. The thing is, neither ever did, mostly because they had those inspectors in there mucking up the works.

Within the first 100 days of the Bush presidency, he stopped sending fuel to N. Korea. As soon as that happened, Jong iL kicked out the inspectors. Within a couple years, they had a nuclear weapon.

You do the math?

193 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:27:41pm

re: #118 NJDhockeyfan

You think the French have the stones to do that?

I think the French wouldn't blink before pressing the button.

194 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:28:39pm

re: #186 NJDhockeyfan

After they signed an agreement with Clinton to stop their nuclear program they went ahead and did it anyway behind Clinton's back. How in the world is that Bush's fault?

Remember too that no one penetrated that fortress (NK), but the Clinton administration did. It was quite astonishing really and no, NKcan't be trusted, but getting IN there was a huge first step that has long been squandered.

195 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:29:11pm

re: #129 NJDhockeyfan

I would expect Hezbollah to get a few nukes once Iran starts making them. Is there any doubt about that?

Dunno. It's clearly a threat. My two questions would be:

1. Does Iran really want to give away the keys to the jam closet like that?

and 2. Does Hezbollah have the technical capacity and secure territory to make effective keepers for such?

196 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:30:04pm

re: #136 RogueOne

The assumption that their leadership is "rational" is a hard argument to make. They could argue the nuclear device came from any number of places including russia or pakistan.

I'll argue that they're rational. The Iranian leadership is crazy like a fox. They've also figured out that it's better to poke the fire with someone else's hand.

197 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:30:08pm

re: #190 lawhawk

Nonsense. They decided that if you want to change the situation, Congress should enact laws to deal with that situation. They weren't going to legislate from the Bench. So, if you're angry about that decision, get your representatives to enact legislative protections for those instances.

It's not nonsense, and it's foolish of you to dismiss it as such. Yes, their reasoning was that legislative response to this was 'prompt'-- despite the fact that the case in question came from Alaska, a state with no legislation in place to ensure this and none planned.

The use of buzzwords like 'legislate from the bench' doesn't constitute an argument. DNA testing, at the prisoner's own expense, shouldn't be disallowed.

William G. Osborne was convicted of the brutal rape and assault of a prostitute in a secluded area near Anchorage International Airport in 1993. Osborne wanted to pay for a more discerning test of semen found in a condom at the crime scene, a test prosecutors agreed would almost definitively prove his guilt or innocence. But prosecutors refused to allow it, and Alaska courts agreed that Osborne did not qualify under the procedures they had established.

Osborne appealed to the federal courts, and the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit in San Francisco recognized a right to such testing under the due-process clause of the Fifth Amendment.

There is no reason to block the right to, at the prisoner's own expense, contribute to the body of evidence. That states will eventually get around to granting this doesn't mean that this right shouldn't be allowed by the courts.

198 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:30:39pm

re: #137 enoughalready

You better believe it. The whole cheese-eating surrender monkey thing has very little to do with reality. Check out how they dealt with the war in Algeria. They can be mean as hell without batting an eyelid.

And the French do not DO national guilt.

This is not one of their better characteristics, but it's pretty damn consistent.

199 enoughalready  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:30:43pm

re: #180 RogueOne

If people are hoping the Iranian leadership likes living more than they're hoping for their virgins that means they have to believe there is a chance the Iranian leadership will actually use those weapons. It's easy for people like me sitting in the middle of Indiana to wonder about what percentage of a chance the Mullahs will lob a nuke since there is no chance they'll hit Indy but it's a much different gamble for someone sitting in Israel.

It isn't rational for Iran to continually poke Israel. It isn't rational for Iran to continually poke the US. It isn't gaining them anything. Where has their influence spread over the last 20 years? No where. They don't have to be as militant and obnoxious as they have been, they've chosen to behave that way. Look at China. Chinas sphere of influence has spread all over the globe while they quietly, and sometimes forcibly, enforce their will. China has turned itself into a world superpower without waking up every morning wondering what's the best way to piss off the US.

I would argue that you are very wrong. The influence of Iran in the ME has grown immensely, their mind share is very high. They aren't interested in making friends in the western hemisphere, I would argue that in the last ten years or so they have been inching closer to China and Russia because they are aware that the future isn't necessarily one of a single super power and that there is ample room for a powerful Iran in the geopolitical aspirations of those nations. Don't assume they are stupid because you find their rhetoric inflammatory and obnoxious. They know what they are doing (well, most of the time anyway).

Personally I find Iran fascinating as a hostile nation. I would certainly say that they are rational, far more so than NK and probably even more rational than Pakistan.

200 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:31:07pm

re: #180 RogueOne

If people are hoping the Iranian leadership likes living more than they're hoping for their virgins that means they have to believe there is a chance the Iranian leadership will actually use those weapons. It's easy for people like me sitting in the middle of Indiana to wonder about what percentage of a chance the Mullahs will lob a nuke since there is no chance they'll hit Indy but it's a much different gamble for someone sitting in Israel.

It isn't rational for Iran to continually poke Israel. It isn't rational for Iran to continually poke the US. It isn't gaining them anything. Where has their influence spread over the last 20 years? No where. They don't have to be as militant and obnoxious as they have been, they've chosen to behave that way. Look at China. Chinas sphere of influence has spread all over the globe while they quietly, and sometimes forcibly, enforce their will. China has turned itself into a world superpower without waking up every morning wondering what's the best way to piss off the US.

Is the leadership of Iran more concerned with internal control than irritating the US and thus believes that beating the drum about the "Great Satan" constantly is therefore necessary? China had constant rhetoric in the 60's about the corruption of the West and so forth, and it has essentially mellowed out as they became a major trading partner.

And I suspect they decided they had a solid enough grip on power then could afford to let up on the constant "fear the outsider" mantra. Which basically feed on the native xenophobia that appears to be well embedded in that culture.

Does the Persian culture have a xenophobic attitude above the cultural norm? If not, then perhaps the leadership has to keep playing on supposed fears in order to keep their citizenry in check. (And if I recall correctly something like 70% of the Iranian population is under 30 now, which means they were all essentially born *since* the Iranian Revolution and never lived under the Shah.

201 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:31:37pm

re: #178 publicityStunted

...which makes this ruling by the RATS (i.e. Roberts, Alito, Thomas, Scalia) and Anthony Kennedy all the more obscene:

Disgusting, repugnant, and utterly vile. Worst supreme court ruling since Dred Scott.

They don't, that isn't the way our system is set up. After a "fair trial" it's up to the state to make sure to correct any issues. The problem with that is if a governor decides a mistake has been made and grants a pardon/clemency and the offender goes off killing a bunch of cops it puts a major damper on any other governor doing what is necessary to maintain justice. It's up to voters to demand that our prisons only house people who are actually guilty, the problem is most voters don't give a crap about anything other than their elected officials being "tough on crime". It would also help if prosecutors were actually liable for intentionally lying and witholding evidence but they aren't.

202 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:32:20pm

re: #191 Spare O'Lake

As with the Third Reich, ignoring their actual words is an exercise in self-delusion and appeasement, and an invitation to disaster.

What about taqqiyah?

//sorry

203 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:33:11pm

re: #201 RogueOne

What legitimate reason is there to make prisoners wait for state legislation on this issue? What right of the state is being protected?

204 Kragar  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:33:37pm

re: #195 SanFranciscoZionist

Dunno. It's clearly a threat. My two questions would be:

1. Does Iran really want to give away the keys to the jam closet like that?

and 2. Does Hezbollah have the technical capacity and secure territory to make effective keepers for such?

Depends on the time table.

Everyone is forgetting the other option with a nuclear weapon in the hands of unconventional forces, suicide bomb. Secure the bomb in a given location, fortified. Launch attacks which you know will invite reprisals. When a sufficient amount of enemy troops are attacking your stronghold, detonate. Martydom and you've just annihalted thousands of enemy troops who were nice enough to come to you.

205 enoughalready  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:34:02pm

re: #191 Spare O'Lake

As with the Third Reich, ignoring their actual words is an exercise in self-delusion and appeasement, and an invitation to disaster.

The allegory is false. Germany had a long standing history of making war on other nations. Iran doesn't. They have been up to all sorts of mischief via proxy but many nations have and it might be useful to keep in mind that they also had to fight a war with Iraq that they certainly perceive as funded by the west (for good reasons).

Note: I'm not saying that Iran isn't dangerous. I'm saying that they have to be regarded as a player, not a wild card.

206 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:34:52pm

re: #204 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Depends on the time table.

Everyone is forgetting the other option with a nuclear weapon in the hands of unconventional forces, suicide bomb. Secure the bomb in a given location, fortified. Launch attacks which you know will invite reprisals. When a sufficient amount of enemy troops are attacking your stronghold, detonate. Martydom and you've just annihalted thousands of enemy troops who were nice enough to come to you.

I'm not so much 'forgetting', as 'sticking my fingers in my ears and singing loudly' on that subject.

207 justaminute  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:37:20pm

I thought I would make a note of the 72 virgin thing, that is a Wahhabiast thing within the Sunni sect. Iran is Shia, so no virgins for them. All the talk of bombing Iran and embargoes are making the Green movement think about their options and they are not exactly swinging our way. Here's a popular music video put out by someone in the Green movement. It's been translated into English.

Youtube Video
208 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:38:05pm

re: #203 Obdicut

What legitimate reason is there to make prisoners wait for state legislation on this issue? What right of the state is being protected?

It sucks but that's the way it works. If the people of Indiana actually gave a crap it would change, but lets face it no one cares about "criminals" until its someone they know is innocent gets locked up.

I don't have an answer other than the problem needs to be fixed at the source, the state. Right now I've only read of one jurisdiction that is actually going through and using DNA to make sure the people they've locked up are actually guilty, Dallas.

209 BishopX  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:39:33pm

re: #180 RogueOne

Iran poking Israel is about Iran preventing Iraq/Jordan/Syria/Saudi Arabia/Turkey from ganging up on them. As long as a there is a Muslim vs Jewish fight for them to take sides on they have to...because if they don't the Sunni/Shia fight is going to start up again. I would be surprised if Iran actually wanted Israel destroyed, weakened yes but not destroyed. Iran is playing a very dangerous game, and if they guess wrong it will probably start WWIII, but I still think they know what they're doing.

In terms of sphere of influence, in the last 20 years they're gained installed a proxy government in Lebanon, strengthened ties with Syria, helped establish a friendly political party in Iraq and started to normalize relations with Turkey. That's a pretty good record. Not as good as China's, but still very good.

210 elbruce  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:39:43pm

re: #191 Spare O'Lake

As with the Third Reich, ignoring their actual words is an exercise in self-delusion and appeasement, and an invitation to disaster.

True

World Shia Leader Ayatollah Seyyed Ali Khamenei, in a message to the Tehran conference on April 17, declared the use of weapons of mass destruction as haram (forbidden in Islam).

Iran regards utilizing nuclear weapons as haram and it is incumbent on everyone to safeguard humanity from such weapons, the Leader stated in his message.


I guess sometimes it's a question of which words you choose to ignore, huh?

211 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:39:50pm

re: #207 justaminute

I thought I would make a note of the 72 virgin thing, that is a Wahhabiast thing within the Sunni sect. Iran is Shia, so no virgins for them. All the talk of bombing Iran and embargoes are making the Green movement think about their options and they are not exactly swinging our way. Here's a popular music video put out by someone in the Green movement. It's been translated into English.


[Video]

Shiites don't get virgins? Well, that sucks.

/

212 Interesting Times  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:40:43pm

re: #197 Obdicut

There is no reason to block the right to, at the prisoner's own expense, contribute to the body of evidence. That states will eventually get around to granting this doesn't mean that this right shouldn't be allowed by the courts.

Exactly. How many innocent people will be executed in the meantime, waiting for "the states" to get their act together legislatively? Executing an innocent person is "constitutional" until they do? Insane. Yet another thing to make me grateful for being Canadian (no death penalty here - I actually do favor it in principle for certain crimes, but not if it means the ridiculous miscarriages of justice we see in certain states).

213 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:41:42pm

Running very late. Enjoy the rest of your evening people.

214 BishopX  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:44:54pm

re: #213 RogueOne

You too.

215 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:45:54pm

re: #212 publicityStunted

Exactly. How many innocent people will be executed in the meantime, waiting for "the states" to get their act together legislatively? Executing an innocent person is "constitutional" until they do? Insane. Yet another thing to make me grateful for being Canadian (no death penalty here - I actually do favor it in principle for certain crimes, but not if it means the ridiculous miscarriages of justice we see in certain states).

It is crazy but that's the system we have. It isn't up to the supreme court to decide our nations trial rules, it's up to the voters to make the changes. I used to be very pro-death penalty, now no so much.

216 tradewind  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:50:35pm

The problem with this is that first it requires you to believe that the Saudi prince was actually telling the truth.
That usually carries its own set of problems.

217 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 2:06:58pm

re: #216 tradewind

The problem with this is that first it requires you to believe that the Saudi prince was actually telling the truth.
That usually carries its own set of problems.

I can never keep it straight. Are we supposed to believe everything or nothing that they say?

Did Murdoch contradict him?

218 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 2:54:54pm

re: #196 SanFranciscoZionist

I'll argue that they're rational. The Iranian leadership is crazy like a fox. They've also figured out that it's better to poke the fire with someone else's hand.

You confuse rationality with cleverness.

219 elbruce  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 3:06:30pm

re: #218 Spare O'Lake

You confuse rationality with cleverness.

Nah, being smart is being smart is being smart. It only looks like different kinds of things from the perspective of the stoopid.

220 tradewind  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 4:06:48pm

re: #217 SanFranciscoZionist
You'll have to decide that for yourself.
I'm just saying that he may not be telling the truth.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ...
Cheechako
2 days ago
Views: 89 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
2 weeks ago
Views: 258 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1