Fanatic Opens Ground Zero Church, No Outrage Sighted

Wingnuts • Views: 6,472

Opening this Sunday, two blocks from the World Trade Center site: a church called the “9-11 Christian Center at Ground Zero,” run by a deranged hate preacher named Bill Keller: Bigot starts ground zero church: Where’s the outrage?

To get a sense of where Keller is coming from, consider his project’s website, which calls Islam a religion of “hate and death” whose adherents will go to hell. It also says: “Islam is a wonderful religion… for PEDOPHILES!”

Keller is the same pastor who hosted a birther infomercial that encouraged viewers to send him and a partner donations to advance the birther cause. His Internet ministry explicitly calls President Obama the new Hitler. He calls homosexuality a perversion. And in 2008, he targeted presidential contender Mitt Romney for being Mormon with a campaign called “voting for Satan.”

In short, if critics of the Park51 Islamic community center, which is explicitly welcoming of all faiths, truly believe that there is a “zone of solemnity” around ground zero (as Gov. Pat Quinn put it), they should be horrified at Keller’s 9/11 Christian Center.

Ditto for those who believe that religious leaders should not build “deliberately provocative” projects around ground zero, as another mosque opponent put it.

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185 comments
1 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:07:38pm

This is a really sick bunch of people. Every bit as bad as the Dove World Outreach freaks.

2 elbruce  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:08:26pm
3 Kragar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:08:30pm

Obviously he didn't open it in the Holy Burlington Coat Factory.

4 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:10:21pm
5 darthstar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:10:39pm

I had a feeling this would happen...that someone would start a "Christian" church next to Ground Zero in response to the Cordoba/Park51 project. I just didn't expect it to be such an obvious group of bigots. Fuckers.

6 elbruce  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:11:48pm

From the OP link:

Pastor Bill Keller of Florida said today he will begin preaching Sunday at the Marriott at 85 West Street (see proximity to ground zero here). A weekly service is planned at the hotel until the $8 million 9/11 Christian Center finds a permanent space. (Fundraising is going well, Keller told Salon today.)


Really, Marriott? Maybe they should start hearing from people who don't want that area politicized and used for hate speech...

New York Marriott® Downtown
85 West Street at Albany Street
New York, New York 10006 USA
Phone: [no phone numbers allowed]
Fax : [no phone numbers allowed]
Sales: [no phone numbers allowed]
Toll-free: [no phone numbers allowed]


Was hoping for an email address but didn't find one.

7 elbruce  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:12:19pm

Oh... well, link then.

8 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:13:32pm

The article says he's temporarily preaching out of the Marriott Hotel.
They should cancel his lease/licence immediately if they have a legal leg to stand on.

9 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:14:16pm
"This message today is not about Mitt Romney," he writes. "Romney is an unashamed and proud member of the Mormon cult founded by a murdering polygamist pedophile named Joseph Smith nearly 200 years ago. The teachings of the Mormon cult are doctrinally and theologically in complete opposition to the Absolute Truth of God's Word. There is no common ground. If Mormonism is true, then the Christian faith is a complete lie. There has never been any question from the moment Smith's cult began that it was a work of Satan and those who follow their false teachings will die and spend eternity in hell."

I did not know that. Praise be to clod for pointing out my religion is a hellbound cult started by a murdering polygamist pedophile.

I wonder if Mitt Romney will re-think his position on the community center and mosque two blocks from ground zero being an unwise thing to do?

10 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:15:18pm

re: #8 Spare O'Lake

The article says he's temporarily preaching out of the Marriott Hotel.
They should cancel his lease/licence immediately if they have a legal leg to stand on.


Irony of Ironies. The Marriott is owned by a Mormon family. I wonder if he knows?

11 darthstar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:16:14pm

If this is what it means to be a Christian nation, then we're all fucked.

12 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:16:42pm

re: #11 darthstar

If this is what it means to be a Christian nation, then we're all fucked.

That's Christian™ to you. /

13 Batman  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:16:47pm

It's a good thing, too. Muslims lose their powers when there's a church nearby. Churches even have enough power to cancel out community centers.

14 brownbagj  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:17:03pm

I stay at Marriotts a lot. I will let them know that Hilton is just fine with me as well unless this is taken care of quickly.

15 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:17:48pm

re: #14 brownbagj

I stay at Marriotts a lot. I will let them know that Hilton is just fine with me as well unless this is taken care of quickly.

Don't forget to copy in the Chairman of the board and link what this preacher has to say about their family faith.

16 simoom  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:17:51pm

This kind of dovetails with the story -- from the New Orleans Brian Williams interview with President Obama,

On Park 51:

BRIAN WILLIAMS: Since you weighed into the Islamic Center near Ground Zero controversy, it — it's gotten larger. It's been nationalized, the debate. Will you revisit that topic?

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, look, I think my statement at the IFTAR dinner in the White House was very clear. And that is — is that if you can build a church on that site. If you can build a synagogue on that site or a Hindu Temple on that site, then we can't treat people of the Islamic faith differently, who are Americans, who are American citizens. That is central to who we are. That is a core value of our Constitution. And my job as President is to make sure in part that we're upholding our Constitution.

BRIAN WILLIAMS: Respectfully, the next day in Florida, you seemed to walk that back. So —

PRESIDENT OBAMA: No, I — actually, let — let me be clear, Brian. I didn't walk it back at all. The — what I said was I was not endorsing any particular project. I was endorsing our Constitution. And what is right. Now, the media, I think — anticipating that this was going to be be a firestorm politically — seemed to think that somehow there was inconsistency and there wasn't. And I was very specific to my team and will be very specific to you now. That the core value and principle that every American is treated the same. That doesn't change.

I mean, think about it — I — at this IFTAR dinner I had — Muslim Americans who had been in uniform fighting in Iraq. Some of whom have served over 20 years. How — how can you say to them that somehow their religious faith is less worthy of respect under our Constitution and our system of government? You know, that's — that's something that I feel very strongly about. I respect the feelings on the other side. And I would defend their right to express them just as fiercely.

17 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:19:08pm

re: #10 DaddyG

Irony of Ironies. The Marriott is owned by a Mormon family. I wonder if he knows?

I wonder whether they'll do anything to shut Keller down. And maybe their leasing agent needs to have an early performance review.

18 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:19:22pm

Wow...

19 darthstar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:19:48pm

re: #14 brownbagj

I stay at Marriotts a lot. I will let them know that Hilton is just fine with me as well unless this is taken care of quickly.

I was a Marriott rewards beneficiary for several years, as I flew every week and stayed exclusively at their hotels. I can honestly say their entire chain will be on my black-list if they support this kind of crap.

20 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:19:49pm

FYI - for those who don't know, on the hater's website, the little girls holding the hands of the men are not their brides. It's a tradition where young girls escort the grooms to the ceremony, or something to that effect. It's completely innocent.

21 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:21:47pm

re: #17 Spare O'Lake

I wonder whether they'll do anything to shut Keller down. And maybe their leasing agent needs to have an early performance review.

Given the heat they have taken over alcohol and cable movies in their hotels I don't see them taking active opposition to the preacher using their facilities. The family is all about customer service no matter who the customer is.

It would be more likely they would respond to customers refusing to stay in their hotels because they don't want to share space with a bigot. They could surprise me.

22 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:23:41pm

re: #10 DaddyG

Irony of Ironies. The Marriott is owned by a Mormon family. I wonder if he knows?

ROFL!
I bet he does.
But he's praying for those Mormons, so 's all OK, I guess!

23 darthstar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:24:17pm

re: #16 simoom

Once again, our President proves himself to be an adult.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, look, I think my statement at the IFTAR dinner in the White House was very clear. And that is — is that if you can build a church on that site. If you can build a synagogue on that site or a Hindu Temple on that site, then we can't treat people of the Islamic faith differently, who are Americans, who are American citizens.

Let them build their house of bigotry. Don't protest it, just point to it and say, "Hey, there's a shining example of Christ's word you can go to, leave the Cordoba/Park51 community project alone."

I'd think that most Christians will likely distance themselves from the 9-11 Christian Center at Ground Zero (awkward name, that one is).

24 cliffster  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:24:31pm

I think this whole thing started with people (9/11 victims?) who thought it was a little in bad taste for a Muslim "mosque" to be built so close to the site of such a devastating attack, carried out by Muslims. By itself, before all this ridiculous national ranting, there's nothing particularly evil about this position.

Having been picked up by people that pretty clearly just hate Muslims, and blown up completely with their lies, false premises, and just plain stupid shit, its taken on a life of its own. My guess is that 100% of the people who initially thought, "huh, Mosque close to the WTC... that's a little weird" have at this point said "Fuck it, built it, this is ridiculous".

25 Kragar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:25:00pm

re: #22 reine.de.tout

ROFL!
I bet he does.
But he's praying for those Mormons, so 's all OK, I guess!

Its a very confusing form of Christianity which a lot of people don't recognize.

/Glenn Beck

26 cliffster  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:25:22pm

re: #22 reine.de.tout

I wonder if he's praying for the salvation of Muslims' souls too?

27 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:25:27pm

Crazy Pam is fund raising today because of increased security....

Laura Ingraham , Bill O'Reilly, MSNBC, Chris Matthews, Keith Olberamann and others have allowed these stealth jihadists to go on the air and gin up the jihadists by publicly accusing us of "leading the opposition to the Ground Zero mosque" which has resulted in a spike in death threats to me and my family.

These same media outlets (Geraldo, Matthews, Ingraham, O'Reilly etc) have not given me (or Spencer) the opportunity to defend ourselves and state our case against the lying jihadists but have allowed these lies to stand unchallenged by enemies of the state.


The first "death threat" is from an obvious wingnut Birther......

Dear Ms. Geller:

This is my third e-mail attachment to your attention, before the attacks of September 11, 2010, against "White" females and "gay" people. Zionist is behind the homosexual movement, and the 9/11 attacks. Yes, President Obama is Muslim, and the Muslim Brotherhood is behind him 120 %. As I stated to you witch, we have America and her cities lock down, and some of us are ready for Jihad. I am as of this day a sucide bomber.

28 Big Steve  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:25:56pm

It is not a great time to be proud of religion in general.

29 eastsider  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:26:06pm

i really wish the onion would stop reporting actual news.

[Link: www.theonion.com...]

30 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:26:17pm

re: #11 darthstar

If this is what it means to be a Christian nation, then we're all fucked.

Luckily we're not. But it seems that a noticeable percentage of the citizenry want it to be for some reason. Probably having to do with not thinking things through, or simply not thinking at all.

31 elbruce  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:26:51pm

As a point of fact, there are already two Christian churches closer to ground zero than Park51: St Paul's and St Peter's, both around the northeast corner of the WTC site. There's also a Greek Orthodox church on the southwest corner that still needs to be rebuilt. So there's no need for this "ground zero church" business at all. There are already plenty.

32 eastsider  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:27:04pm

re: #11 darthstar

If this is what it means to be a Christian nation, then we're all fucked.

excuse me sir, I'm going to ask you to restore honor to that comment.

/

33 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:27:37pm

re: #31 elbruce

As a point of fact, there are already two Christian churches closer to ground zero than Park51: St Paul's and St Peter's, both around the northeast corner of the WTC site. There's also a Greek Orthodox church on the southwest corner that still needs to be rebuilt. So there's no need for this "ground zero church" business at all. There are already plenty.

I don't like that logic.

34 elbruce  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:29:57pm

re: #33 Varek Raith

I don't like that logic.

See, if we can completely ring ground zero with churches, that'll create a "faith field" which prevents booga-booga influences from other religions' building from infecting its hallowed ground. ///

I wasn't actually suggesting that a church there is necessary, but it's something that could be pointed out to anybody donating to this guy, that what he's proposing as necessary is already done.

35 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:30:53pm

re: #34 elbruce

See, if we can completely ring ground zero with churches, that'll create a "faith field" which prevents booga-booga influences from other religions' building from infecting its hallowed ground. ///

I wasn't actually suggesting that a church there is necessary, but it's something that could be pointed out to anybody donating to this guy, that what he's proposing as necessary is already done.

But those are the wrong kind of churches since they aren't putting money in his pocket...

36 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:31:01pm

re: #34 elbruce

See, if we can completely ring ground zero with churches, that'll create a "faith field" which prevents booga-booga influences from other religions' building from infecting its hallowed ground. ///

I wasn't actually suggesting that a church there is necessary, but it's something that could be pointed out to anybody donating to this guy, that what he's proposing as necessary is already done.

Lol, faith field.
:)

37 brownbagj  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:31:27pm

re: #15 DaddyG

I called the customer service line. I have hundreds of thousands of points. I told them I would cash them all in on electronics and never stay there again.

I will email the HQ later on in the day.

We have to stand up, everyone of us, in our own ways...no matter how small. It does add up.

38 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:31:40pm

Marriot Comments form...

http://www.marriott.com/suggest/suggest.mi

My message:

It has come to my attention through the news that Pastor Bill Keller of Florida will be holding services at your New York Marriott Downtown location at 85 West Street at Albany Street New York, New York 10006 USA

Pastor Keller is an avowed anti-Mormon who sponsors such web sites as Voting for Satan which describes the Mormon Church as a "cult founded by a murdering polygamist pedophile named Joseph Smith nearly 200 years ago." This Preacher has also compared President Obama to Hitler.

I wonder if the Chariman of the Board who is a Latter-day Saint would approve of these events in one of Marriotts flagship locations?

I am a Latter-day Saint who is likely to use Marriott facilities when given a choice but I will not be choosing to stay in this location of they continue to sponsor hate speech like this.

39 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:31:44pm

re: #31 elbruce

As a point of fact, there are already two Christian churches closer to ground zero than Park51: St Paul's and St Peter's, both around the northeast corner of the WTC site. There's also a Greek Orthodox church on the southwest corner that still needs to be rebuilt. So there's no need for this "ground zero church" business at all. There are already plenty.

Well let's be honest, this church was established with the same idea in mind as the one to open a gay club next door. To antagonize. And though I am no fan of Christianity, I must that that this particular church doesn't strike me as much of a church as it does an institution of bigotry - that is to say, it makes decent Christians look bad. It only helps to perpetuate the prejudice, not like the fanatic who opened the church cares, of course.

40 Kragar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:31:52pm

re: #36 Varek Raith

Lol, faith field.
:)

The Emperor protects.
/

41 avanti  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:34:35pm

re: #20 eclectic infidel

FYI - for those who don't know, on the hater's website, the little girls holding the hands of the men are not their brides. It's a tradition where young girls escort the grooms to the ceremony, or something to that effect. It's completely innocent.

For all the comments about Mohamed being a pedophile, some forget the age of a typical girls marriage centuries ago. i.e. Mary would have likely been betrothed to Joesph as a 12-14 year old. When life expectancy was in the 30's and 40's women did not marry at 18.


"The Roman tradition influenced peoples and cultures with whom it had come in contact. In the Islamic tradition following Muhammad, betrothal could take place earlier than PUBERTY, perhaps as early as seven, but the marriage was not supposed to be consummated until the girl menstruated and was of age. In medieval Europe, Gratian, the influential founder of Canon law in the twelfth century, accepted the traditional age of puberty for marriage (between 12 and 14) but he also said consent was "meaningful" if the children were older than seven.

42 darthstar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:34:36pm

re: #31 elbruce

So there's no need for this "ground zero church" business at all. There are already plenty.

Yes, but this church is a blatant attempt to feed (and profit - raising 8 million dollars for a church you may not actually be serious in opening) on the emotions of those who are opposed to Park51 because that's what they're told to think. The Fox viewers, the Boehner voters, the Bachmann supporters. And before they get the full story on just how hateful this preacher is, it wouldn't be a bad idea to get them on record praising his efforts to build a Christian church in that neighborhood. It's a sure winner for the GOP. (/partial)

43 Obdicut  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:34:46pm

Now, now, the protesters are far too busy harassing a black carpenter on his way to work to deal with little things like this.

45 brownbagj  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:35:21pm

re: #31 elbruce

As a point of fact, there are already two Christian churches closer to ground zero than Park51: St Paul's and St Peter's, both around the northeast corner of the WTC site. There's also a Greek Orthodox church on the southwest corner that still needs to be rebuilt. So there's no need for this "ground zero church" business at all. There are already plenty.

But those aren't real Christians.

/

46 elbruce  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:36:00pm

re: #39 eclectic infidel

Well let's be honest, this church was established with the same idea in mind as the one to open a gay club next door. To antagonize.

Well, there already is a bar a few doors down, and a strip club across the street. I don't think they really care.

Also, what gay people would go to a bar that was put there by religious bigots just to antagonize some other religious bigots?

47 Obdicut  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:36:07pm

re: #41 avanti

I think a lot of people mix up the arrangement of marriage, in the past, with the consummation of that marriage.

48 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:37:06pm

The right-wing argument is clear: it was not Christian Fundamentalist Terrorists who plowed their planes into the WTC.

The RW argument is clear: The Christian Bible does not call for subjugating infidels or stoning adulterers.

I do not support these viewpoints personally, I am just pointing out what the counter-talking points here are going to be.

49 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:37:23pm

re: #41 avanti Its called presentism. Using modern sensibilities and mores to judge people from hundres of years ago.

50 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:37:53pm

re: #44 Ojoe
That is beautiful. The detail on the braids is exquisite. Who painted it?

51 Obdicut  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:38:34pm

re: #44 Ojoe

Funny, she doesn't look Jewish.

52 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:38:46pm

re: #49 DaddyG

Its called presentism. Using modern sensibilities and mores to judge people from hundres of years ago.

Ignoring the fact that many of those peoples were the ones who moved us to where we are now.

53 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:38:56pm

re: #51 Obdicut

Funny, she doesn't look Jewish.


Or 14, either.

54 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:39:15pm

re: #43 Obdicut

Now, now, the protesters are far too busy harassing a black carpenter on his way to work to deal with little things like this.


There is some ironic symbolism in the fact that they were harassing a carpenter.

55 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:39:19pm

re: #49 DaddyG

Its called presentism. Using modern sensibilities and mores to judge people from hundres of years ago.

It is also a pillar of PC judgementalism.

If people come to judge me personally in 300 years, i want to be judged by the standards of my time, not theirs.

The opposite applies to interpreting holy scriptures, we have to take into account the time and the society in which they were written.

56 EastSider  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:41:26pm

re: #54 DaddyG

There is some ironic symbolism in the fact that they were harassing a carpenter.

and some un-ironic symbolism in the fact that they were harassing a black man wearing a skull cap.

57 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:42:39pm

re: #56 EastSider

and some un-ironic symbolism in the fact that they were harassing a black man wearing a skull cap.


What a country: a black man with a job and he gets hassled...

58 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:44:04pm

re: #48 ralphieboy

The right-wing argument is clear: it was not Christian Fundamentalist Terrorists who plowed their planes into the WTC.

Neither was it Sufi Muslims like the ones building the Cordoba project. In fact they were targets from Wahabbists and radicals long before the west was.

The RW argument is clear: The Christian Bible does not call for subjugating infidels or stoning adulterers.

No the Bible was more about killing them all and not leaving a soul alive including the children and goats. Granted the New Testament is a kinder gentler version of justice but it doesn't hold up to cherry picking statements any better than the Koran.

I do not support these viewpoints personally, I am just pointing out what the counter-talking points here are going to be.

I've been round and round with these my religion is better than yours arguments and they are all decidedly lacking in Christian charity. I guess I'm hyper sensitive having been the target de jour for many born again evangelicals in my lifetime, but I don't buy this crap about anyone else.

59 researchok  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:44:21pm

Keller's a real piece of work.

Some of what he has he's written is way, way beyond the pale, beyond the standard religious nutjob pablum. I did a cursory google search and came up with some pretty wild stuff.

60 avanti  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:44:56pm

re: #56 EastSider

and some un-ironic symbolism in the fact that they were harassing a black man wearing a skull cap.

I bought a few of those caps to keep the grease out of my hair when I'm under a car. I'll have to remember to not leave the house with one on.

61 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:45:20pm

re: #60 avanti

I bought a few of those caps to keep the grease out of my hair when I'm under a car. I'll have to remember to not leave the house with one on.

ISLAMIST!

62 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:45:44pm

re: #55 ralphieboy

The opposite applies to interpreting holy scriptures, we have to take into account the time and the society in which they were written.

You are going to be labelled a heritic for that. Didn't you know the scriptures are plain and cannot be interpreted. Certainly the fact that they were written by middle eastern nomads, sheep herders and fishermen has nothing to do with the symbolism in them. For heavens sake if your olive tree isn't bearing fruit cast it into the fire!! /

63 EastSider  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:45:55pm

re: #60 avanti

I bought a few of those caps to keep the grease out of my hair when I'm under a car. I'll have to remember to not leave the house with one on.

just remember your papers, you'll be fine.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

64 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:46:36pm

re: #16 simoom

This kind of dovetails with the story -- from the New Orleans Brian Williams interview with President Obama,

On Park 51:

Do the idiots at MSNBC think the Arabic word "iftar" is some kind of actronym? Or else why is it in all-caps twice in that interview?

65 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:47:31pm

re: #62 DaddyG

You are going to be labelled a heritic for that. Didn't you know the scriptures are plain and cannot be interpreted. Certainly the fact that they were written by middle eastern nomads, sheep herders and fishermen has nothing to do with the symbolism in them. For heavens sake if your olive tree isn't bearing fruit cast it into the fire!! /

What is clearer that "thou shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek"?

Anyone who is not a pacifist will go to hell, period.

66 Locker  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:48:05pm

re: #51 Obdicut

Funny, she doesn't look Jewish.

Drewish

67 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:48:24pm

re: #64 Cato the Elder

Do the idiots at MSNBC think the Arabic word "iftar" is some kind of actronym? Or else why is it in all-caps twice in that interview?

International Federation of Terrorist Arab Radicals

68 Ojoe  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:48:26pm

re: #50 DaddyG

I don't know who painted it. It might be british.

re: #51 Obdicut

The madonna & child is a universal thing.

69 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:48:28pm

re: #64 Cato the Elder

Do the idiots at MSNBC think the Arabic word "iftar" is some kind of actronym? Or else why is it in all-caps twice in that interview?


They were trying to distinguish it from the truly horrible Ishtar.

70 darthstar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:48:35pm

re: #64 Cato the Elder

Do the idiots at MSNBC think the Arabic word "iftar" is some kind of actronym? Or else why is it in all-caps twice in that interview?

Iftar is the breaking of fast during Ramadan.

71 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:48:36pm

I didn't find any atheist bashing on the website. Bummer!

72 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:49:13pm

re: #71 eclectic infidel

I didn't find any atheist bashing on the website. Bummer!

I'm disappointed.
:(

73 Kragar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:49:27pm

re: #62 DaddyG

You are going to be labelled a heritic for that. Didn't you know the scriptures are plain and cannot be interpreted. Certainly the fact that they were written by middle eastern nomads, sheep herders and fishermen has nothing to do with the symbolism in them. For heavens sake if your olive tree isn't bearing fruit cast it into the fire!! /

If the scriptures were good enough for a primitive agrarian society with limited understanding of scientific principles and helped to form a basis for the divine right of the nobility to rule 2000 years ago, based on myth and folklore taken from centuries worth of parables from the surrounding region, then they're good enough for the Good Ole US of A.

/

74 Mocking Jay  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:49:46pm

re: #71 eclectic infidel

I didn't find any atheist bashing on the website. Bummer!

Patience, grasshoppa.

75 palomino  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:50:02pm

Can we stop pretending like Fred Phelps' Westboro Church is unique? His group holds signs saying, "God Hates Fags!" This 9/11 church, like the Dove group in FL, is essentially holding signs saying, "God Hates Muslims!" (Not that they like gays, just hate Muslims more at the moment.)

76 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:50:07pm

re: #65 ralphieboy

What is clearer that "thou shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek"?

Anyone who is not a pacifist will go to hell, period.

"A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace." Ecclesiastes 3:8

Context matters.

77 darthstar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:50:44pm

re: #71 eclectic infidel

I didn't find any atheist bashing on the website. Bummer!


I'd open an athiest cultural center near Ground Zero, but then I remembered New York City is one...it just happens to have a lot of churches in it as well.

78 KingKenrod  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:50:59pm

Equal access for religion is protected by the Civil Rights Act, so I'm not sure what basis Marriott would have for denying Keller space. Perhaps if he or his group have a history of being disruptive or in legal trouble. But in order to know that, they would have to have a person who researches the background of every paying customer - I doubt if they would do that.

79 EastSider  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:51:21pm

re: #73 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If the scriptures were good enough for a primitive agrarian society with limited understanding of scientific principles and helped to form a basis for the divine right of the nobility to rule 2000 years ago, based on myth and folklore taken from centuries worth of parables from the surrounding region, then they're good enough for the Good Ole US of A.

/

[Chants:"USA! USA! USA!"]

[Sees individual politely disagree with my viewpoint]

[Screams the pledge of allegiance in his/her face, overemphasizing "UNDER GOD"]

/recapping Saturday's tea party.

80 spikester  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:51:33pm

re: #62 DaddyG

a tree
the only thing Jesus is known to have killed

81 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:51:45pm

re: #70 darthstar

Iftar is the breaking of fast during Ramadan.

Duh. So why is it caps?

82 Ojoe  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:51:48pm

Church of the Sub Genius needs a site there too.

83 darthstar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:52:45pm

re: #78 KingKenrod

Equal access for religion is protected by the Civil Rights Act, so I'm not sure what basis Marriott would have for denying Keller space. Perhaps if he or his group have a history of being disruptive or in legal trouble. But in order to know that, they would have to have a person who researches the background of every paying customer - I doubt if they would do that.

The Marriott is a private, not public, property. They can refuse the use of their facilities to anyone without reason. Their best bet would be to give the guy his money back and tell him to look elsewhere, and not give a reason.

84 Ojoe  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:53:13pm

Sasquatch not go to church.

85 darthstar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:53:52pm

re: #81 Cato the Elder

Duh. So why is it caps?

Maybe the president was speaking in all caps? I'm guessing it was an editorial fuck-up...but at least they were consistent.

86 darthstar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:54:15pm

re: #84 Ojoe

Don't mess with Sasquatch...

87 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:55:00pm

re: #61 Varek Raith

ISLAMIST!

Shouldn't that be auto-islamist?

88 KingKenrod  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:56:16pm

re: #83 darthstar

The Marriott is a private, not public, property. They can refuse the use of their facilities to anyone without reason. Their best bet would be to give the guy his money back and tell him to look elsewhere, and not give a reason.

All inns, hotels, and motels are specifically covered in the Act. Can you imagine a "whites only" hotel or a "No Jews" hotel?

89 EastSider  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:56:22pm

re: #87 oaktree

Shouldn't that be auto-islamist?

you know, i once was driving through Egypt and my car broke down. There were not mechanics in site. I suppose I had an auto-islamist deficiency syndrome.

90 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:56:25pm

re: #5 darthstar

I had a feeling this would happen...that someone would start a "Christian" church next to Ground Zero in response to the Cordoba/Park51 project. I just didn't expect it to be such an obvious group of bigots. Fuckers.

There are already many churches in the area. The thing I always remember from "The Saint of 9/11" is when they bring Father Mychal's body into the nearby Catholic church. Outside is hell, inside is still pristine. A holy, horrifying moment.

Whether we needed this particular church anywhere...the jury is still out.

91 Targetpractice  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:57:02pm

Now, of course, Pam and the Bigot Brigade will get their knickers in a bunch, claiming that it's a "double standard" to be okay with a "ground zero mosque," but not with a church there. That Keller's being "slandered," that he's no bigot, and that those making such claims should be doing the same about Rauf. Won't be surprised if, by week's end, a donation drive's been set up to see Keller's church constructed, if only to get the "last laugh."

The Right is, if nothing else, very predictable.

92 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:57:36pm

re: #9 DaddyG

I did not know that. Praise be to clod for pointing out my religion is a hellbound cult started by a murdering polygamist pedophile.

Don't worry about it. They keep telling the Muslims that too.

//

93 Kragar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 12:57:53pm

re: #86 darthstar

Don't mess with Sasquatch...

There were some scientists, trying to figure out the Sasquatch riddle
till they figured out he was the missing link.
In search of Sasquatch, that was a kick ass "In Search of"
with Leonard Nimoy kicking out the jams

94 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:00:08pm

re: #28 Big Steve

It is not a great time to be proud of religion in general.

I don't know, my neighborhood Catholic church is rallying like crazy around a family who lost their mom tragically last week, having a food drive, and minding their own damn business otherwise.

It does all seem to be in the wrist.

95 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:02:38pm

re: #41 avanti

For all the comments about Mohamed being a pedophile, some forget the age of a typical girls marriage centuries ago. i.e. Mary would have likely been betrothed to Joesph as a 12-14 year old. When life expectancy was in the 30's and 40's women did not marry at 18.

"The Roman tradition influenced peoples and cultures with whom it had come in contact. In the Islamic tradition following Muhammad, betrothal could take place earlier than PUBERTY, perhaps as early as seven, but the marriage was not supposed to be consummated until the girl menstruated and was of age. In medieval Europe, Gratian, the influential founder of Canon law in the twelfth century, accepted the traditional age of puberty for marriage (between 12 and 14) but he also said consent was "meaningful" if the children were older than seven.

A friend of mine who is rather learned about such things says that it's also probable that Aisha's age is rounded sharply down in the accounts to emphasize her purity (she is the only virgin Mohammed married). He reckons she would have been a few years older, since menarche was normally what indicated a girl was marriageable.

96 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:03:03pm

re: #43 Obdicut

Now, now, the protesters are far too busy harassing a black carpenter on his way to work to deal with little things like this.

They're hassling a carpenter of color. How...ironic.

97 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:03:42pm

re: #95 SanFranciscoZionist

A friend of mine who is rather learned about such things says that it's also probable that Aisha's age is rounded sharply down in the accounts to emphasize her purity (she is the only virgin Mohammed married). He reckons she would have been a few years older, since menarche was normally what indicated a girl was marriageable.

How old was Mary when she was betrothed to Joseph?

98 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:03:50pm

re: #46 elbruce

Well, there already is a bar a few doors down, and a strip club across the street. I don't think they really care.

Also, what gay people would go to a bar that was put there by religious bigots just to antagonize some other religious bigots?

"Where are you going to take Dave on your first date?"

"Ah, I figured dinner, dancing, and then maybe a nightcap at a bar run by bigots."

99 KernelPanic  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:04:06pm

I am a former multi-year Marriott Rewards Platinum Elite (75+ room nights a year to qualify) who is now a much happier Gold Elite member (only 25 nights in a Marriott property per year to qualify).

Not gonna make an angry call though, they can rent their ballrooms to whomever they like. NYC is expensive and I doubt this preacher will collect more in donations than what he's paying out for the space - a bankrupt wingnut is a (slightly) safer one.

Just my $.02

100 Mocking Jay  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:04:10pm

re: #96 SanFranciscoZionist

They're hassling a carpenter of color. How...ironic.

Why? Are you one of those ones who refuse to believe Jesus was a lily-white guy who looked like he'd fit in with a Seattle Grunge band?

101 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:04:16pm

As far as I know, the First Amendment does not protect your right to hold "religious" services in a private hotel.

Marriott should just refund this idiot's money and send him packing. He can then try to raise the money for his storefront chapel of imbecility.

102 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:05:43pm

re: #97 ralphieboy

How old was Mary when she was betrothed to Joseph?

If she was eighteen she would have been called and "old maid" in the Gospels instead of a "maid".

103 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:06:56pm

re: #86 darthstar

Don't mess with Sasquatch...


Bah. I hate those commercials. Another product whose primary users (by their commercials) are folk who like being total assholes. In these cases they just mess with a primate who has no worries about retaliating.

I also refer to Bud Light as the "preferred beer of felons, cheats, and losers" based upon their commercials where people act like jackasses (or worse) simply to get a particular brand of beer.

104 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:07:13pm

re: #82 Ojoe

Church of the Sub Genius needs a site there too.

And Our Lady, Ever-Lovely Eris, at least needs a shrine, upon which shall read:
There is no Goddess but Goddess and She is Your Goddess ~ HAIL ERIS, ALL HAIL DISCORDIA MAGNA

Surely the pastor at the 911 church could see the wisdom in that and respond with respect and reverence, right?

105 darthstar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:07:34pm

re: #102 Cato the Elder

If she was eighteen she would have been called and "old maid" in the Gospels instead of a "maid".

I thought she was 14. I guess God likes 'em young.

106 darthstar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:10:19pm

re: #103 oaktree

I do like the Keystone beer commercial where "Keith Stone" rescues Kitty from a tree. "Hold my stones." Ha!

107 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:10:55pm

re: #105 darthstar

I thought she was 14. I guess God likes 'em young.

Maybe he was testing out the "Droit de seigneur"* theory before passing it on to the nobility...

;)

* - Noted that there is really very little historical evidence to back up this practice actually existing. Appears to be fictional and goes back to at least Herodotus.

108 cliffster  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:11:01pm

re: #102 Cato the Elder

So going after 18-22 year olds, which is now "robbing the cradle", use to be "being into older women"?

109 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:12:50pm

re: #108 cliffster

So going after 18-22 year olds, which is now "robbing the cradle", use to be "being into older women"?

Yes, but "Granny" used to be 36. (And she looked like Granny, too, with no dentistry, a poor diet, massive childbearing, and soap made from ashes and lye. Oh, yeah, and no bra.)

110 darthstar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:13:44pm
111 darthstar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:14:26pm

re: #109 EmmmieG

Today, Granny's just hot.

112 Mark Pennington  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:14:33pm

I just deleted my facebook account. I got fed up with witnessing my own relatives(and quite a few of my friends) obsessed with Islamophobia. A picture posted by my aunt was the last straw.

She posted this image with this comment: You make the call on the cult that Obama calls a "Great Religion"

An example of some of the comments to this image: Image: 11r96o1.jpg

Islam is a disgusting death cult, totally controlled by demons...

WOW, and this is the religion that you libs go out of your way to defend???? You all should be ashamed of yourselves!!

rotten sick bastards!!!

Islam is the work of satan!

but then again our youth aborts babies by the 1000`s every year.....

Just saw a picture of an 8 year old being punished for stealing a loaf of bread...they were running over his arm with a car! Stop them from taking over America! Read this and see how close they are to their goal!
[Link: canadafreepress.com...]


This reminds me of the lunatic fringe FAR left who post gruesome propaganda pics to smear Israel.

113 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:15:29pm

re: #78 KingKenrod

Equal access for religion is protected by the Civil Rights Act, so I'm not sure what basis Marriott would have for denying Keller space. Perhaps if he or his group have a history of being disruptive or in legal trouble. But in order to know that, they would have to have a person who researches the background of every paying customer - I doubt if they would do that.

You are probably right. Darn! Question for our legal lizards: Does Marriott as a private company (publicly owned) have the obligation to rent to anyone who requests space?

114 Mocking Jay  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:15:50pm

re: #110 darthstar

OT: Political Armageddon!

I plan on going through at least three bowls of Jiffy Pop this November 2nd...

115 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:16:08pm

re: #80 spikester

a tree
the only thing Jesus is known to have killed


Well that and a thriving money trading business.

116 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:16:41pm

re: #113 DaddyG

You are probably right. Darn! Question for our legal lizards: Does Marriott as a private company (publicly owned) have the obligation to rent to anyone who requests space?


As far as I know they are free to set their own standards as long as they apply them consistently and do not discriminate.

117 Mocking Jay  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:18:05pm

re: #116 ralphieboy

As far as I know they are free to set their own standards as long as they apply them consistently and do not discriminate.

I could be wrong, but I think they can determine what kind of activities are allowed on their space. Which means saying "no religious services," as opposed to "no Christian services.

118 Dante41  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:18:07pm

And for something to rebuild some of your faith in humanity: a Christian church opens its doors to Muslims while their mosque is under construction.

119 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:18:15pm

re: #92 SanFranciscoZionist

Don't worry about it. They keep telling the Muslims that too.

//


I found a book in an antique store in Ohio. It was "Mormons the American Muslims". I should have purchased it as a curio.

120 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:20:18pm

re: #112 beekiller

Arg. They're STILL passing around those bogus photos of the kid having his arm run over by a car?

Those pictures are real, but they do not show any kind of "sharia punishment," like the wingnuts claim. It's a Pakistani street performer doing a trick.

I had a post about this almost 5 years ago:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

121 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:20:40pm

re: #115 DaddyG

Well that and a thriving money trading business.

Either a borrower or a lender we.

122 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:22:18pm

re: #120 Charles

i guess if they haven't seen it before,...it's new to you!(even if it;s not what it is purported to be)

123 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:22:48pm

re: #95 SanFranciscoZionist
Betrothal, marriage and consummation are often separate events in the ancient world separated by months and years. Again presentism and the desire to portray others in the most negative light possible lead to erroneous assumptions and plain old ignorance.

124 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:23:26pm

re: #112 beekiller

Just saw a picture of an 8 year old being punished for stealing a loaf of bread...they were running over his arm with a car!

That's an old, old street performance scam.

125 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:24:11pm

can't imagine this guy having much of a congregation in lower manhatten.
much like i can't see gutfields gay bar having much clientel

126 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:24:25pm

re: #117 JasonA

I could be wrong, but I think they can determine what kind of activities are allowed on their space. Which means saying "no religious services," as opposed to "no Christian services.

There go the Amway meetings. /

127 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:24:30pm

re: #112 beekiller

Yikes.

128 darthstar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:24:37pm

Heh...working from home today, which means Hawaii 5-0 right now...Ricardo Montalban is playing a Japanese mobster...with a little eye-shadow to give him slanted eyes and that signature Spanish accent as he tries to act Japanese...funny shit.

129 Mark Pennington  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:24:48pm

re: #120 Charles

Arg. They're STILL passing around those bogus photos of the kid having his arm run over by a car?

Those pictures are real, but they do not show any kind of "sharia punishment," like the wingnuts claim. It's a Pakistani street performer doing a trick.

I had a post about this almost 5 years ago:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Wow. I would point that out but I'm done with them and facebook for a while.(I'll start another one later and only add sane people.)
Some of my family and friends are fucking lost causes. I got attacked last week for posting a link that debunked their claim that no one in Islam has spoken against radical Islam. [Link: www.muhajabah.com...]

130 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:26:07pm

re: #114 JasonA

I plan on going through at least three bowls of Jiffy Pop this November 2nd...


I'm taking the day off from my day job to work the election. It should be almost as much fun as the ballot initiative on the Georgia state flag!

131 Dante41  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:27:31pm

OT: I have finally finished my cruise on the good training ship Golden Bear. It feels good to be back home.

132 Kragar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:28:29pm

OT, I haven't had a soda in a week and only feel the slight desire to disembowel random passersby.

133 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:29:39pm

re: #131 Dante41

OT: I have finally finished my cruise on the good training ship Golden Bear. It feels good to be back home.

Is that you in the red sweater?

134 Mocking Jay  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:29:46pm

re: #132 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

OT, I haven't had a soda in a week and only feel the slight desire to disembowel random passersby.

I had a Mountain Dew an hour ago. It was awesome.

135 Kragar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:30:05pm

re: #134 JasonA

I had a Mountain Dew an hour ago. It was awesome.

Never did the Dew.

136 Digital Display  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:30:20pm

re: #132 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

OT, I haven't had a soda in a week and only feel the slight desire to disembowel random passersby.

Try flavored water...
Good Afternoon Lizards!

137 theheat  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:30:41pm

I hope all the Good Christians™, rabble rouser's, bigots, haters, and teabaggers are happy one of their own stood up to make a mockery of the Park51 project. Since they're so into stereotypes, they could have found a better representative of their own.

I've decided I like Imam Rauf. I think he's trying to do a good thing, and I believe he's a progressive trying to mainstream a flavor of moderate Islam that's compatible with Western culture. The more I hear him speak, and the more I read about what he's done in the past, I admire him for what must seem like a near-impossible endeavor. Every morning he wakes up a bona fide villain, but pushes on for what he believes in. I think he walks the walk and talks the talk. That's a rare thing these days where religion is concerned.

And until Rauf starts pushing creationism in schools, says the country should embrace Islam as its national religion, marginalizes women, proclaims death fatwas, and plucks piggy banks from the hands of wide-eyed children because they're "too offensive," I will keep believing he's a decent man and a positive figurehead for his religion.

I can't say that for Bill Keller. I can't say that about a lot of our figureheads. Quite the contrary, actually. I can only secretly hope they choke on their own venom, or maybe a pork chop. It may well be the only way to shut them the hell up and keep them from trying to destroy our country with their hateful and ignorant Real American™ bullshit.

138 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:30:54pm

re: #132 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

OT, I haven't had a soda in a week and only feel the slight desire to disembowel random passersby.

I haven't had a cigarette in 2 1/2 months. In my more stressful moments I do feel the heavy desire to disembowel random passersby... or the not-so-random idiot coworker... but I have refrained. It's a small victory.

139 Dante41  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:31:10pm

re: #133 DaddyG

Is that you in the red sweater?

Nah. That picture is 8 years old.

Besides, I was wearing a blue jacket when we went under the Golden Gate Bridge two days ago.

140 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:31:46pm

I had to give up soda because it made my wonky heart valve wonkier. It wasn't bad enough I gave up alcohol and coffee in the 80s.

I too want to kill loud and obnoxious things from time to time.

141 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:31:51pm

re: #65 ralphieboy

What is clearer that "thou shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek"?

Anyone who is not a pacifist will go to hell, period.

And pacifists who let other people die because they were squeamish about weapons will be there to greet them.

142 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:32:04pm

re: #136 HoosierHoops

Try flavored water...
Good Afternoon Lizards!

Hoops!

How's it hangin'?

(for whatever definition of 'it' you prefer)

143 darthstar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:33:05pm

re: #140 DaddyG

I had to give up soda because it made my wonky heart valve wonkier. It wasn't bad enough I gave up alcohol and coffee in the 80s.

I too want to kill loud and obnoxious things from time to time.

Allow me to introduce you to Rush Limbaugh.

144 Digital Display  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:33:33pm

re: #142 b_sharp

Hoops!

How's it hangin'?

(for whatever definition of 'it' you prefer)

I'm doing well...Starting to pack and prepping to move from Indiana..
How are you?

145 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:33:39pm

re: #65 ralphieboy

What is clearer that "thou shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek"?

Anyone who is not a pacifist will go to hell, period.

"Thou shalt not kill" is not one of the 10 Commandments. It is "Thou shalt not murder."

146 Kragar  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:34:03pm

re: #141 Cato the Elder

And pacifists who let other people die because they were squeamish about weapons will be there to greet them.

People who think nothing is worth fighting for are dead inside.

147 Targetpractice  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:34:55pm

I must confess, I personally am curious to see if the "anti-mosque" crowd will acknowledge Keller's efforts or try to ignore it and hope that the media follows suit. And, if they choose to acknowledge him, whether they will attempt to make excuses for him and claim he's not "that bad" or instead claim that he's "just as bad" as Rauf.

Any way you slice it, Keller has made this an all the more interesting situation. It's time to see whether the bigots will put their money where their mouths are or be unmasked for all to see.

148 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:34:58pm

re: #146 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

People who think nothing is worth fighting for are dead inside of a few minutes once the hand to hand combat starts.

FIFY

149 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:35:11pm

re: #144 HoosierHoops

I'm doing well...Starting to pack and prepping to move from Indiana..
How are you?

Bad.

I'm supposed to be doing paper work, like sending bills to my customers, but instead I'm here.

I'm a bad, bad man.

150 elbruce  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:36:12pm

re: #48 ralphieboy

The RW argument is clear: The Christian Bible does not call for subjugating infidels or stoning adulterers.

Yes it does.

151 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:37:08pm

re: #112 beekiller

This reminds me of the lunatic fringe FAR left who post gruesome propaganda pics to smear Israel.

Why yes, yes it does.
And also of the lunatic Islamists who do the same.
And also the lunatic Christian right to lifers who post the dead fetus shots.
And on and on it goes....

152 Dante41  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:37:26pm

re: #146 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

People who think nothing is worth fighting for are dead inside.

As are the people who think everything is worth killing over.

153 simoom  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:37:31pm

Judge stymies Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli's "Climate-gate" witchhunt:

[Link: www.nbcwashington.com...]
[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli’s effort to tie a former University of Virginia professor to the stake for his work on climate change has been rebuffed by an Albemarle County Circuit Court Judge, The Washington Post reported.

Cuccinelli, a global warming skeptic, was seeking a slew of documents related to the work of climate scientist and former UVA professor Michael Mann, who now teaches at Penn State University.

The AG maintains Mann committed fraud in seeking five government grants for research showing the earth has experienced rapid warming.

But Judge Paul M. Peatross Jr. ruled Cuccinelli’s subpoena failed to “state a reason to believe” that Mann committed fraud, according to The Washington Post.

154 EastSider  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:38:24pm

re: #120 Charles

Arg. They're STILL passing around those bogus photos of the kid having his arm run over by a car?

Those pictures are real, but they do not show any kind of "sharia punishment," like the wingnuts claim. It's a Pakistani street performer doing a trick.

I had a post about this almost 5 years ago:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

well-cited facts, clear illustrations of hypocrisy and logic are useless against this group of people. Sadly that has been continuously proven over the last two years.

155 theheat  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:39:30pm

re: #88 KingKenrod

No, but if Rand Paul's line of thinking was applied, it could happen. No Jews, or Whites Only drinking fountains could be any business owner's choice. Rand Paul: civil rights = bad. ACLU = bad. SPLC = bad. Klukkers? Just a bunch of guys in sheets, exercising their rights to hate anyone not like them.

156 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:39:41pm

I suspect God keeps track of who uses principles in scripture to govern themselves or who uses them as a cudgel to condemn others?

157 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:39:46pm

re: #147 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I must confess, I personally am curious to see if the "anti-mosque" crowd will acknowledge Keller's efforts or try to ignore it and hope that the media follows suit. And, if they choose to acknowledge him, whether they will attempt to make excuses for him and claim he's not "that bad" or instead claim that he's "just as bad" as Rauf.

Any way you slice it, Keller has made this an all the more interesting situation. It's time to see whether the bigots will put their money where their mouths are or be unmasked for all to see.

They could claim he's a liberal "false flag" plant set up to discredit them...

:p

158 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:39:50pm

re: #135 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Never did the Dew.

If you are in Scotland, try an Irn Bru, it tastes like Juicy Fruit chewing gum and containes even more caffiene than MD

159 EastSider  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:40:52pm

re: #158 ralphieboy

If you are in Scotland, try an Irn Bru, it tastes like Juicy Fruit chewing gum and containes even more caffiene than MD

irn bru is pretty tough to handle.

160 Targetpractice  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:41:08pm

re: #157 oaktree

They could claim he's a liberal "false flag" plant set up to discredit them...

:p

That will last all of five seconds, until this guy's past brainfarts get unloaded on them. Then you'll see their jaws wag faster than a hummingbird's wings.

161 elbruce  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:41:30pm

re: #42 darthstar

Yes, but this church is a blatant attempt to feed (and profit - raising 8 million dollars for a church you may not actually be serious in opening) on the emotions of those who are opposed to Park51 because that's what they're told to think.

The hate industry is looking pretty profitable lately, I must say.

162 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:41:37pm

re: #159 EastSider

irn bru is pretty tough to handle.


It is not a beverage, it is a drug, somewhere between MD and Red Bull...

163 Aye Pod  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:41:46pm

re: #112 beekiller

That is sheer bigotry. Holy crap.

Good to see you btw. Ice says she'll email you in a bit (still a bit tender after her finger slicing accident but she has started typing again, albeit more slowly and gingerly than usual).

164 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:41:50pm

re: #158 ralphieboy

ahh Irn Bru we used to call it "the cure"(hangovers)
You can get it in some of the shops in kearny nj.(little scotland)

165 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:42:06pm

re: #150 elbruce


I was just pointing out the Talking Points, not agreeing with them...

166 Mark Pennington  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:43:31pm

re: #151 Spare O'Lake

Why yes, yes it does.
And also of the lunatic Islamists who do the same.
And also the lunatic Christian right to lifers who post the dead fetus shots.
And on and on it goes...

The thing is...my relatives and some friends who have always been pretty mainstream are now being sucked in by the lunatic right. These are not even political people I'm talking about.

167 Aye Pod  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:44:43pm

re: #158 ralphieboy

If you are in Scotland, try an Irn Bru, it tastes like Juicy Fruit chewing gum and containes even more caffiene than MD

I keep finding cans of Irn Bru abandoned with only a little taken out of them. It's Scotlands no1 most discarded soft drink. Reason? The taste.

168 Mark Pennington  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:46:00pm

re: #163 Jimmah

That is sheer bigotry. Holy crap.

Good to see you btw. Ice says she'll email you in a bit (still a bit tender after her finger slicing accident but she has started typing again, albeit more slowly and gingerly than usual).

I changed my email(due to my pending divorce and gmail hackery) so I will email her my new addy.

169 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:47:16pm

re: #166 beekiller

The thing is...my relatives and some friends who have always been pretty mainstream are now being sucked in by the lunatic right. These are not even political people I'm talking about.

In bad economic times everyone is more vulnerable to this kind of hateful crap - left, right and centre.

170 theheat  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:51:46pm

re: #166 beekiller

My own dad is glued to Fox news 24/7 and lives for Glenn Beck's revelations. He spends every waking moment pissed off, yelling about Obama, and how communists have taken over the country. He's more or less incapacitated, so he's what you'd call a captive audience.

Never before in my life have I heard such crazy, racist, and outright ignorant stuff come out of his mouth. It's like pod people infected his brain. I swear, if Hitler was in power now, he'd join the party. He's that full of rage and blame and paranoia.

It's sad to think in his final months, he's become exactly what he told us not to be, growing up. It's hard trying to remember the good stuff when all that comes out anymore is lunacy. Yeah, it bothers me.

171 elbruce  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:57:00pm

re: #169 Spare O'Lake

left, right and centre.

Couldn't resist adding that could you, Magical Balance Fairy?

172 Mark Pennington  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:58:14pm

re: #170 theheat

My own dad is glued to Fox news 24/7 and lives for Glenn Beck's revelations. He spends every waking moment pissed off, yelling about Obama, and how communists have taken over the country. He's more or less incapacitated, so he's what you'd call a captive audience.

Never before in my life have I heard such crazy, racist, and outright ignorant stuff come out of his mouth. It's like pod people infected his brain. I swear, if Hitler was in power now, he'd join the party. He's that full of rage and blame and paranoia.

It's sad to think in his final months, he's become exactly what he told us not to be, growing up. It's hard trying to remember the good stuff when all that comes out anymore is lunacy. Yeah, it bothers me.

We should start a support group. :D We're losing our family to complete nutbars.

173 Mark Pennington  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 1:59:30pm

re: #163 Jimmah

That is sheer bigotry. Holy crap.

Good to see you btw. Ice says she'll email you in a bit (still a bit tender after her finger slicing accident but she has started typing again, albeit more slowly and gingerly than usual).

Good to see you too, Jim. :) email sent...

174 theheat  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 2:03:02pm

re: #172 beekiller

He doesn't have much time left. Weeks, days, maybe. I hate to see him go out like this. He might as well be an alien, it's so strange.

175 Mark Pennington  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 2:08:14pm

re: #174 theheat

He doesn't have much time left. Weeks, days, maybe. I hate to see him go out like this. He might as well be an alien, it's so strange.

I'm so sorry to hear that. Maybe all you can do is let him know you love him and try to avoid talk of politics. :(

176 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 2:55:25pm

re: #170 theheat

(((theheat)))

177 Obdicut  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 2:57:55pm

re: #174 theheat

I'm sorry, man. Remember that what he does now doesn't erase what he did before.

I've had friends lose their minds in their final months. One slipped back into extreme racism. I just tried to remember that that was where he had come from, and had successfully fought and overcome it during his life. That it came back during his final months was just a symptom of the disease attacking him, not a commentary on his character.

Remember to take care of yourself, too.

178 Kronocide  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 3:19:09pm

re: #16 simoom

Upding Obama: this is a time he should have spoke on the matter and done nothing else.

179 CuriousLurker  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 4:41:24pm

re: #168 beekiller

re: #174 theheat

I'm sorry to hear about both of your heartaches.

180 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 10:39:49pm

re: #44 Ojoe

Here is a picture of a beatific madonna and child to remind us that religion should be about love.

Of course Jesus and the Madonna had blonde hair. Didn't everyone in that area?

181 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 10:42:16pm

re: #62 DaddyG

You are going to be labelled a heritic for that. Didn't you know the scriptures are plain and cannot be interpreted. Certainly the fact that they were written by middle eastern nomads, sheep herders and fishermen has nothing to do with the symbolism in them. For heavens sake if your olive tree isn't bearing fruit cast it into the fire!! /

And they were written in 17th century and modern English! It's a muh-eer-uh-kul!

182 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 10:49:51pm

re: #103 oaktree

Bah. I hate those commercials. Another product whose primary users (by their commercials) are folk who like being total assholes. In these cases they just mess with a primate who has no worries about retaliating.

I also refer to Bud Light as the "preferred beer of felons, cheats, and losers" based upon their commercials where people act like jackasses (or worse) simply to get a particular brand of beer.

Bud Light is not beer. It's kidney flush. I hate it when I'm in a bar or restaurant with 50 different brands of beer or "beer" and all the all-knowing yuppie scum types are ordering Bud Light, Coors Light, or Budweiser.

183 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 10:54:48pm

re: #118 Dante41

And for something to rebuild some of your faith in humanity: a Christian church opens its doors to Muslims while their mosque is under construction.

Thank you for posting that. I'm glad to see that someone really gets the idea of friendship and brotherhood.

184 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Aug 30, 2010 10:59:41pm

re: #141 Cato the Elder

And pacifists who let other people die because they were squeamish about weapons will be there to greet them.

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which people claim all the benefits of a society without accepting any of the responsibilities--and claim a halo for their dishonesty."--Robert A. Heinlein, "Starship Troopers"

(Not to be confused with the crappy movie)

185 theheat  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 3:37:33am

re: #175 beekiller

re: #176 Cato the Elder

re: #179 CuriousLurker

re: #177 Obdicut

It's a very touchy subject for me, losing my dad like this. Know that I mean it when I say thanks.


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