Anti-Mosque Bigots Are Helping America’s Enemies

World • Views: 5,490

Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, and the anti-mosque movement are the Taliban’s best friends.

Taliban officials know it’s sacrilegious to hope a mosque will not be built, but that’s exactly what they’re wishing for: the success of the fiery campaign to block the proposed Islamic cultural center and prayer room near the site of the Twin Towers in lower Manhattan. “By preventing this mosque from being built, America is doing us a big favor,” Taliban operative Zabihullah tells NEWSWEEK. (Like many Afghans, he uses a single name.) “It’s providing us with more recruits, donations, and popular support.”

America’s enemies in Afghanistan are delighted by the vehement public opposition to the proposed “Ground Zero mosque.” The backlash against the project has drawn the heaviest e-mail response ever on jihadi Web sites, Zabihullah claims—far bigger even than France’s ban on burqas earlier this year. (That was big, he recalls: “We received many e-mails asking for advice on how Muslims should react to the hijab ban, and how they can punish France.”) This time the target is America itself. “We are getting even more messages of support and solidarity on the mosque issue and questions about how to fight back against this outrage.”

Zabihullah also claims that the issue is such a propaganda windfall—so tailor-made to show how “anti-Islamic” America is—that it now heads the list of talking points in Taliban meetings with fighters, villagers, and potential recruits. “We talk about how America tortures with waterboarding, about the cruel confinement of Muslims in wire cages in Guant�namo, about the killing of innocent women and children in air attacks—and now America gives us another gift with its street protests to prevent a mosque from being built in New York,” Zabihullah says. “Showing reality always makes the best propaganda.”

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260 comments
1 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:15:15am

This was easier to predict than the outcome of a tennis match between Federer…and me.

2 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:16:39am

And this leads to the death of US soldiers. Not in some vague manner, like the ‘emboldening’ of the enemy, but through more people shooting at them, more people planting bombs, more people willing to die to kill them.

There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. We are not going to kill them all. Not only is it impossible, it is against everything the US stands for. They are not going to spontaneously convert to Christianity, either.

Those pushing the idea that we’re in a war with Islam are pushing for the deaths of uncountable US soldiers. Not to mention, of course, the death of many Muslims and the strengthening of theocracies in the Middle East.

Short-sighted assholes.

3 Kragar  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:16:55am

Radical Islamists Try to Exploit Islamophobia

The reaction is, at least on the part of extremists, fairly gleeful - that America is playing into our hands, that America is revealing its ugly face, and that even if it doesn’t further radicalize people in the Middle East, there’s no doubt that it will radicalize a kind of a key constituency that al-Qaida and other extremists are seeking to covet, seeking to court, which is the small number of homegrown extremists here in the United States,” Kohlmann said.

Al-Qaida and allied groups view American Muslims as a potentially valuable asset because they can mount attacks from within the United States. Army Major Nidal Hassan, the accused Fort Hood shooter, and Faisal Shahzad, who tried unsuccessfully to set off a bomb in New York City’s Times Square, are both American citizens whom investigators believe were drawn into radical Islam.

In its message of violent global jihad, al-Qaida rails against U.S. support of Israel and what it calls apostate regimes in the Middle East. But Brian Fishman, a terrorism analyst at the New America Foundation, says American-born radical Muslim cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, who now lives in Yemen, is now honing the recruitment message more directly for American Muslims.

“That message, that broad jihadi message, doesn’t seem to be resonating tremendously well with American Muslims. But what I worry about is that a guy like Anwar al-Awlaki has better insight into what will work here. And his message has been a little bit different over the last six to nine months,” Fisherman explains. “It has included all of those general themes. But it also discusses this idea that the West is turning on you, America is coming to get you, you won’t be safe there for long, you have to fight back now.”

4 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:19:48am

but if they don’t lead crazy protests,how will they get to see themselves on T.V.?

5 stevemcg  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:20:09am

If Muslims were THAT dangerous, wouldn’t we be dead already? I mean, there are millions living here, and also in other Western nations. The vast majority don’t seem to be trying to kill anybody. Should we start expelling Muslims from the military like gays?

6 SpaceJesus  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:20:20am

way to hand them a culture war on a silver platter you dumb shits

7 stevemcg  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:21:00am

re: #5 stevemcg

Gee, maybe gays are more dangerous than Muslims.

8 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:22:05am

re: #1 Aceofwhat?

This was easier to predict than the outcome of a tennis match between Federer…and me.

You’d so kick his ass.

9 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:24:38am

re: #4 Boondock St. Bender

but if they don’t lead crazy protests,how will they get to see themselves on T.V.?

Well, there’s always the show “COPS”, or perhaps “Cheaters”…
/

10 Guanxi88  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:25:06am

re: #9 MrSilverDragon

Well, there’s always the show “COPS”, or perhaps “Cheaters”…
/

bait car - my new fave, after hoarders.

11 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:25:56am

re: #8 Varek Raith

You’d so kick his ass.

eh, i have a terribly high opinion of myself, often in flagrant contradiction to my actual abilities in any particular field, and even i know i’d get wiped like a shamwow…

12 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:26:32am

re: #6 SpaceJesus

way to hand them a culture war on a silver platter you dumb shits

They LOVE culture war. The Gellerites and the Islamofascists both. They should have a damn conference.

13 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:26:34am

re: #10 Guanxi88

bait car - my new fave, after hoarders.

Hoarders just makes me sad. Bait cars is awesome background TV, though, i’ll give you that.

You still enjoying the new digs?

14 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:26:44am

re: #9 MrSilverDragon

idea for a new show”fame whore” give em’15 minutes to do whatever they like…

15 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:26:57am

re: #7 stevemcg

Gee, maybe gays are more dangerous than Muslims.

We apparently thought so when we fired those transslators.

16 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:27:35am

I’m not surprised - I’ve been saying that Spencer is AQ’s best propagandist for awhile because of the way he promotes Al Zawahiri’s neo-takfirist view of other muslims (you aren’t a real muslim if you are not a fundy wahabbist extremist jihadi…) Perhaps Zawahiri should make him the new #3.

17 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:27:43am

re: #14 Boondock St. Bender

idea for a new show”fame whore” give em’15 minutes to do whatever they like…

you mean “Jersey Shore”?

18 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:28:26am

re: #1 Aceofwhat?

This was easier to predict than the outcome of a tennis match between Federer…and me.

Not for everyone. I’ve posted a couple of stories on this subject and have been met with some serious, though, for me, confounding pushback. It’s hard to take the, um, shall we say, nuanced position in opposition to this idea seriously, so I don’t bother.

19 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:28:42am

re: #17 Aceofwhat?

damn beat me to it…curse you mtv!

20 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:29:01am

re: #16 Thanos

I’m not surprised - I’ve been saying that Spencer is AQ’s best propagandist for awhile because of the way he promotes Al Zawahiri’s neo-takfirist view of other muslims (you aren’t a real muslim if you are not a fundy wahabbist extremist jihadi…) Perhaps Zawahiri should make him the new #3.

Now, now, wishing for the man’s untimely demise isn’t nice…

//AQ’s number-three slot really does seem to be cursed.

21 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:29:20am

re: #17 Aceofwhat?

you mean “Jersey Shore”?

He said “Fame Whore”, not “Fake Untalented Idiot Fame Whores”

22 Batman  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:29:39am
“We talk about how America tortures with waterboarding, about the cruel confinement of Muslims in wire cages in Guantánamo, about the killing of innocent women and children in air attacks—and now America gives us another gift with its street protests to prevent a mosque from being built in New York”

You’re too modest. You should talk more about what you do.

23 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:30:22am

re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist

“3” is the loneliest number……

24 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:30:57am

re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist

Now, now, wishing for the man’s untimely demise isn’t nice…

//AQ’s number-three slot really does seem to be cursed.

Urk! I did not intend it to mean that… Charles feel free to delete me.

25 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:31:02am

re: #18 Jeff In Ohio

Not for everyone. I’ve posted a couple of stories on this subject and have been met with some serious, though, for me, confounding pushback. It’s hard to take the, um, shall we say, nuanced position in opposition to this idea seriously, so I don’t bother.

True. There is an uncomfortably large minority of folks who couldn’t see the forest if the trees choked them to death.

26 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:31:03am
27 Guanxi88  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:31:55am

All kidding aside, though, does anyone honestly believe this is some great coup for the Taliban et al? I mean, if the preposterous claims of willful civilian murder and “war against Islam” don’t make the sale, how in the hell will “some people have reservations about the construction of a mosque in Manhattan” seal the deal?

28 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:33:14am

re: #21 MrSilverDragon

He said “Fame Whore”, not “Fake Untalented Idiot Fame Whores”

1. i do recall a request from a few fellow lizards that we cut down on the use of the prostitution references. just a reminder.
2. #1 aside, i believe those two phrases can be understood as synonyms//

29 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:33:19am

re: #27 Guanxi88

To Muslims over here it might mean a great deal.

30 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:33:21am

re: #27 Guanxi88

All kidding aside, though, does anyone honestly believe this is some great coup for the Taliban et al? I mean, if the preposterous claims of willful civilian murder and “war against Islam” don’t make the sale, how in the hell will “some people have reservations about the construction of a mosque in Manhattan” seal the deal?

Yes, I certainly do believe that. “Insults against Islam” are extremely powerful motivators in some countries, particularly Afghanistan and Pakistan. As we saw with the craziness around the Danish Mohammed cartoons.

31 Guanxi88  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:33:25am

re: #13 Aceofwhat?

Hoarders just makes me sad. Bait cars is awesome background TV, though, i’ll give you that.

You still enjoying the new digs?

Couldn’t love it any more without serious pharmacological assistance. What’s not to love about the place?

I’m giving consideration to getting mixed up in town politics next year or so; not from some desire to reform or improve the place, but rather out of a sense of obligation to the town. I like it that much.

32 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:33:36am

re: #27 Guanxi88

You don’t appear to understand: The insane displays of bigotry we’re seeing in response to the community center give credibility to the ‘war on Islam’ message that Al Qaeda tries to spread.

33 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:34:37am

re: #25 Aceofwhat?

oops. that reads a little harshly. apologies…i was thinking Lord of the Rings and made a little riff. Charles, please delete if that could be taken out of context in a manner that would reflect poorly on the blog.

34 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:35:53am

I say fuck the Taliban and those who would seek to stifle freedom of expression in their accursed name…at least so long as hatred and bigotry are protected speech in America.
We all know how the Taliban would handle dissenting views.

35 Guanxi88  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:36:11am

re: #30 Charles

Yes, I certainly do believe that. “Insults against Islam” are extremely powerful motivators in some countries, particularly Afghanistan and Pakistan. As we saw with the craziness around the Danish Mohammed cartoons.

All right, that’s one take on it, I suppose. Still, I’d imagine “the infidels slaughter our innocent women, children, and elderly” would be a far more effective message.

As for the Mohammed Cartoon controversy, well, that’s a whole other kettle of fish.

36 stevemcg  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:36:15am

I’m still more interested in what the war of bigotry is doing to us than what it’s doing for them. I don’t want to see these rabble rousers come out on top. Bad shit happens when the cowards win the day.

37 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:36:59am

re: #34 Spare O’Lake

I say fuck the Taliban and those who would seek to stifle freedom of expression in their accursed name…at least so long as hatred and bigotry are protected speech in America.

What are you talking about?

38 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:37:02am

The greatest danger to the US is not the terrorists over there, it’s the people here on the edge who they might be able to recruit. The lone jihadi nutjobs are out there, just as the lone wingnut and theocrat nutjobs are. They don’t need all that much encouragement because they already live at the edge of sanity.

39 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:37:21am

re: #27 Guanxi88

All kidding aside, though, does anyone honestly believe this is some great coup for the Taliban et al? I mean, if the preposterous claims of willful civilian murder and “war against Islam” don’t make the sale, how in the hell will “some people have reservations about the construction of a mosque in Manhattan” seal the deal?

When large crowds of, say, Palestinians assemble with inappropriate signs and suggestions, i’m fairly harsh in my criticism. Some of the pics i’ve seen from NY and TN are, sadly, in a similar vein.

It’s much harder to ask a country or creed to stop overreacting to silly nothings when you start mixing in actual, ugly behavior.

40 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:37:33am

re: #27 Guanxi88

All kidding aside, though, does anyone honestly believe this is some great coup for the Taliban et al? I mean, if the preposterous claims of willful civilian murder and “war against Islam” don’t make the sale, how in the hell will “some people have reservations about the construction of a mosque in Manhattan” seal the deal?

It’s not a great coup, but it’s probably good propaganda material. I wouldn’t sweat that particular detail of it, but it is something to be aware of.

OTOH, I recall reading an interview with some Muslim terror network bigwig who seriously seemed to think that the US executed Christian heretics, based on some reports he’d seen about Waco, so I don’t really think reality enters too much into this. It is worth noting, though, how many people on this list, most of them quite sane, seem to have been very deeply affected by one or two signs they saw at a rally, or images from the news.

41 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:37:53am

re: #34 Spare O’Lake

I’mm all for fucking the Taliban. I’m also all for people understanding words and deeds have consequences.

42 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:37:56am

re: #29 Thanos

To Muslims over here it might mean a great deal.

And I’m much more concerned with them.

43 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:38:01am

re: #31 Guanxi88

Couldn’t love it any more without serious pharmacological assistance. What’s not to love about the place?

I’m giving consideration to getting mixed up in town politics next year or so; not from some desire to reform or improve the place, but rather out of a sense of obligation to the town. I like it that much.

i’m really glad to hear that. good for you-

44 ShaunP  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:38:56am

re: #34 Spare O’Lake

I say fuck the Taliban and those who would seek to stifle freedom of expression in their accursed name…at least so long as hatred and bigotry are protected speech in America.
We all know how the Taliban would handle dissenting views.

You have the right to say whatever you want. I have the right to say whatever I want about what you said…

45 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:38:57am

re: #37 Obdicut

What are you talking about?

He’s saying we shouldn’t moderate the debate at the risk of rewarding the Taliban with recruits.

I think.

46 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:39:04am

re: #28 Aceofwhat?

1. i do recall a request from a few fellow lizards that we cut down on the use of the prostitution references. just a reminder.
2. #1 aside, i believe those two phrases can be understood as synonyms//

1. Hrmm… I believe I wasn’t the one that used the word originally, but ok, I have no problems in reducing the amount of prostitution references in my posts.

2. This is “Jersey Shore”, I think reference #2 is far more applicable. Verbosity is needed in that situation.

47 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:39:43am

This part, however, is lost on the Taliban. They ignore that public discourse is well-accepted in the US and that the First Amendment covers both free speech and free exercise of religion. We’ve got both in action here. The right of the Cordoba Initiative to build, and a right of people to protest its construction.

In the end, the right to build should win out, unless the Park51 folks cave in to the pressure and build elsewhere.

The Taliban have no such interest in rights like free speech or free exercise of religion. Mind you, these are the same barbarians who blew up the Bamiyan Buddhas and who routinely kill and maim teachers, parents, and girls for attempting to educate women. They think nothing of killing those who aren’t Muslim (or Muslim enough).

But, the Taliban are sophisticated enough to tout conflicting issues in the US for their own propaganda purposes.

48 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:40:11am

re: #46 MrSilverDragon

1. Hrmm… I believe I wasn’t the one that used the word originally, but ok, I have no problems in reducing the amount of prostitution references in my posts.

2. This is “Jersey Shore”, I think reference #2 is far more applicable. Verbosity is needed in that situation.

heh.

sorry, should have clarified that i was pulling out of the w—— sequence, not that i was heaping blame on others.

49 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:42:08am

re: #34 Spare O’Lake

I say fuck the Taliban and those who would seek to stifle freedom of expression in their accursed name…at least so long as hatred and bigotry are protected speech in America.
We all know how the Taliban would handle dissenting views.

no one is saying that we should not remain free to protest. the debate is whether there was any wisdom to the protest.

it’s not rocket surgery.

50 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:42:25am

re: #48 Aceofwhat?

my fault for starting the whole thing

51 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:42:33am

re: #37 Obdicut

What are you talking about?

I thought I was clear. I believe that the day we allow those murdering, intolerant, misogynistic, school-burning, bigoted Taliban to influence the agenda for our internal debates is the day we lose any claim to the moral high ground.

52 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:43:01am

I’m so pissed off. The kids’ vocabulary book tells them that Emma Lazarus’s parents were ‘immigrants from Russia’.

HOW AM I TO TEACH UNDER THESE CONDITIONS?

53 Curt  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:43:32am

re: #38 Thanos

The greatest danger to the US is not the terrorists over there, it’s the people here on the edge who they might be able to recruit. The lone jihadi nutjobs are out there, just as the lone wingnut and theocrat nutjobs are. They don’t need all that much encouragement because they already live at the edge of sanity.

Sad to say there have been those recruited for years from among us. What about those trying to attempted attack Ft Dix? The USF student driving around the Charleston Naval Weapons Station with cameras and at least some indications of this wasn’t a standard college student’s spring break like trip (trust me, I know what Goose Creek looks like). We had them underneath the WTC in ‘93 with a van full of explosives. One was caught trying the VBIED in Times Square recently, and let’s not forget the Underwear bomber and those who have left to Pakistan and Yemen, before this discussion on the Mosque began….and Maj Hassan.

Yes, they are a threat, but they have had plenty of sympathetic help before now, without such a front page issue.

54 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:44:42am

re: #51 Spare O’Lake

I thought I was clear. I believe that the day we allow those murdering, intolerant, misogynistic, school-burning, bigoted Taliban to influence the agenda for our internal debates is the day we lose any claim to the moral high ground.

I quite agree. I also held that opinion when people were being told, with much hand-wringing, that any opposition to the wars, or criticism of the President, was going to lead to U.S. soldiers being killed.

However, it is worth considering that when you walk out on the streets of NYC with a vile sign about Islam, say, you’re going to be seen by more people than the folks at the demo with you.

55 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:44:54am

I just wish they would stop brain washing and recruting our
best and brightest minds…From institutions we have invested so much time and millions of dollars to insure they ARE the “Best and Brightest!!
….Our Prison System…./sort of!

56 Guanxi88  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:45:13am

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

I’m so pissed off. The kids’ vocabulary book tells them that Emma Lazarus’s parents were ‘immigrants from Russia’.

HOW AM I TO TEACH UNDER THESE CONDITIONS?

Dr. Benway, ship’s doctor, drunkenly added two inches to a four-inch incision with one stroke of his scalpel.

“Perhaps the appendix is already out doctor” the nurse said peering dubiously over his shoulder. “I saw a little scar.”

“The appendix already out !?” the doctor shouted. “I’m taking the appendix out! What do you think I’m doing here?”

“Perhaps the appendix is on the left side doctor,” said the nurse. “That happens sometimes you know.”

“Stop breathing down my neck I’m coming to that! Don’t you think I know where an appendix is? I studied appendectomy in 1904 at Harvard.” He threw back his elbows in a movement of exasperation.. He lifts the abdominal wall and searches along the incision dropping ashes from his cigarette. “And get me another scalpel! This one has no edge to it.”

He thrusts a red fist at her. The doctor reels back and flattens against the wall from the force of the explosion with the bloody scalpel clutched in one hand. The patient slides off the operating table spilling intestines across the floor. Dr. Benway sweeps instruments, cocaine, and morphine into his satchel.

“Sew her up!” he said, peeling off his gloves. ” I can’t be expected to work under such conditions.”

57 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:45:25am

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

HAHAHAHAHA, Emma Lazaruski.

58 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:45:57am

re: #49 Aceofwhat?

no one is saying that we should not remain free to protest. the debate is whether there was any wisdom to the protest.

it’s not rocket surgery.

OK, you mean like Obama said about the right to build not equating to the wisdom of the decision to locate the mosque there…yes, that’s right.

59 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:46:30am

Seriously — banning scarves, burqas, and mosques is exactly the response that AQ is looking for, they want moderates to feel repressed and rebellious so they can lead them to radicalism. re: #53 Curt

Yes, but their recruits have been growing fewer, worldwide terror flames are dying out except in the war zones — this just throws tinder on the embers.

60 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:47:43am

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

I’m so pissed off. The kids’ vocabulary book tells them that Emma Lazarus’s parents were ‘immigrants from Russia’.

HOW AM I TO TEACH UNDER THESE CONDITIONS?

Tell them the truth?

61 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:47:44am

re: #44 ShaunP

You have the right to say whatever you want. I have the right to say whatever I want about what you said…

Thank you. And yes you do.

62 ReamWorks SKG  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:48:05am

Since when have conservatives advocated the government “taking” of private property? (Either through outright possession, or by rendering it worthless by declaring it wetland, historical, etc)?

Apparently, ever since someone wanted to put an Islamic Cultural Center on private property, that’s when.

What’s astounding is even some libertarian-leaning folks, like Rand Paul, have fallen into the anti-Mosque camp.

63 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:48:13am

re: #60 EmmmieG

Tell them the truth?

Oh, well, I guess I could do that…

64 Guanxi88  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:49:15am

re: #63 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, well, I guess I could do that…

As a last resort, when all other options have failed, we always have the truth.

65 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:49:48am

can I get an Arrgghhhh!?
52 percent of Republicans think Obama wants to impose Sharia law.

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com…]

66 9Iron  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:50:02am

Methinks this is a win/win situation for the those that wish ill against our country. At the end of the day they get either:

1. A victory flag (so to speak) at the site of the greatest mass murder in the history of our country or:
2. A propaganda victory sure to inflame other parts of the world that will be twisted to say that the US is intolerant and is clearly at war with all of Islam.

Very well played on their part, I must admit.

And no, not for a minute do I think the purpose of this mosque is “outreach”. It’s provocation, pure and simple and either way we go its going to work.

67 harlequinade  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:50:06am

re: #58 Spare O’Lake

“If you can build a church on that site,” President Obama said, “if you can build a synagogue on that site or a Hindu temple on that site, then we can’t treat people of the Islamic faith differently, who are Americans. Who are American citizens. That is central to who we are.”

68 ReamWorks SKG  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:50:35am

re: #17 Aceofwhat?

They’ve been picked up for yet another season. I think they’re going on to 45 minutes now.

69 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:50:46am

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

I’m so pissed off. The kids’ vocabulary book tells them that Emma Lazarus’s parents were ‘immigrants from Russia’.

HOW AM I TO TEACH UNDER THESE CONDITIONS?

Oh look, her parents were named Moshe & Esther.

Hmmm. Must have been cossacks. Wait, except that they didn’t seem to have been anywhere near Russia at any time, or even Europe.

Hmmm. Maybe they were New Amsterdam Dutch?

Amish. They were amish.

No, wait, must have been Scot-Irish.

Japanese?

Running out of ideas here.

70 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:51:42am

re: #65 Thanos

can I get an Arrgghhh!?
52 percent of Republicans think Obama wants to impose Sharia law.

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com…]

That can’t be right.

71 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:52:43am

re: #51 Spare O’Lake

I thought I was clear. I believe that the day we allow those murdering, intolerant, misogynistic, school-burning, bigoted Taliban to influence the agenda for our internal debates is the day we lose any claim to the moral high ground.

We lost that ground a long time ago. The reason people are objecting to the building of the community center is precisely because of them.

72 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:52:43am

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

I’m so pissed off. The kids’ vocabulary book tells them that Emma Lazarus’s parents were ‘immigrants from Russia’.

HOW AM I TO TEACH UNDER THESE CONDITIONS?

What freaking moron wrote this textbook?

73 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:53:05am

re: #58 Spare O’Lake

OK, you mean like Obama said about the right to build not equating to the wisdom of the decision to locate the mosque there…yes, that’s right.

i love hearing Canadians lecture me on the concept of ‘free speech’.

74 harlequinade  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:53:39am

re: #73 Aceofwhat?

i love hearing Canadians lecture me on the concept of ‘free speech’.

It’s only done out of concern

75 ReamWorks SKG  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:53:56am

re: #66 9Iron

I’m giving this US born Imam the benefit of the doubt; I think his motives are genuine. There are a lot of muslims in NYC and they need community centers.

But I can’t say I “support” this. If it were my land, I’d put a cupcake and wine tasting bar there. Just because you can’t find any moral or legal justification to oppose something, doesn’t make you a supporter.

But, it’s not my land. So, I’ll support the rights of the landowner to do what he wants with it, within the law. I certainly don’t want the Government to declare my house a national landmark, or “sacred ground” and prohibit me from, say, putting vinyl siding on it.

76 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:54:00am

re: #63 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, well, I guess I could do that…

Would you indulge me for a second? Could you look and tell me what the textbook says the Redcoats were after at Concord & Lexington?

77 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:54:15am

re: #69 EmmmieG

Oh look, her parents were named Moshe & Esther.

Hmmm. Must have been cossacks. Wait, except that they didn’t seem to have been anywhere near Russia at any time, or even Europe.

Hmmm. Maybe they were New Amsterdam Dutch?

Amish. They were amish.

No, wait, must have been Scot-Irish.

Japanese?

Running out of ideas here.

I think they assume she must have been Ashkenazi, because she was involved with charities that helped them, and all nineteenth-century American Jews came from Russia, right? Or else Poland.

The Lazarus and Nathan families had been in NYC since the colonial period.

She and Cardozo were cousins of some sort.

78 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:55:20am

re: #72 Alouette

What freaking moron wrote this textbook?

I don’t know, but I’m writing them a letter. This is intolerable.

79 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:56:08am

re: #76 EmmmieG

Would you indulge me for a second? Could you look and tell me what the textbook says the Redcoats were after at Concord & Lexington?

Uh, I teach Ancient Civ this year. I could check the eighth grade book later.

80 ReamWorks SKG  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:56:47am

re: #78 SanFranciscoZionist

Even the Wikipedia has it (presumably) right:

Lazarus was the fourth of seven children of Moshe Lazarus and Esther Nathan, Portuguese Sephardic Jews[4] whose families had been settled in New York since the colonial period. She was related through her mother to Benjamin N. Cardozo, Associate Justice of the US Supreme Court.

81 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:57:21am

re: #66 9Iron

give me a break…i mean, it’s not that dissenting views aren’t welcome. it’s just tiresome to hear the same old thing that we’ve discussed over and over. i don’t suppose i could get you to go back and read 20 old threads before we go any further here?

82 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:57:31am

re: #76 EmmmieG
Concord??
Wait…give me a minute,Ah Jellies and Jams!!
Ha !Didn’t think I knew aye!

83 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:57:35am

re: #70 SanFranciscoZionist

That can’t be right.

Its’ right here, question 24, add up the “Definitely True” and “probably true” responses to get the 52 pct

[Link: nw-assets.s3.amazonaws.com…]

84 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:57:55am

re: #83 Thanos

Its’ right here, question 24, add up the “Definitely True” and “probably true” responses to get the 52 pct

[Link: nw-assets.s3.amazonaws.com…]

Jesus wept.

85 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:58:31am

re: #79 SanFranciscoZionist

Uh, I teach Ancient Civ this year. I could check the eighth grade book later.

I thought you had the book with you. Nevermind.

I’ve heard that some books have started teaching that the Colonials had “food and clothes” at Concord & Lexington, which is just silly, because farmers didn’t store their food communally, and New Englanders didn’t have enough clothes to store it rather than wear it.

(Most Southerners didn’t, either, but I’ll bet Washington & Jefferson had excess clothing.)

86 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:59:39am

re: #85 EmmmieG

They had arms and powder.

My biggest guff with the way the American Revolution is taught is underteaching the importance of the French and Spanish entry into the war.

87 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:00:09pm

re: #85 EmmmieG

The Redcoats wanted the STASH of “Evil Guns and Ammo”!

88 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:00:25pm

re: #83 Thanos

Its’ right here, question 24, add up the “Definitely True” and “probably true” responses to get the 52 pct

[Link: nw-assets.s3.amazonaws.com…]

no, i think “52% of actual republicans probably don’t believe such a thing” is the sentiment. at least, it’s my sentiment…fingers crossed…

89 9Iron  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:00:36pm

75 reuven

I agree with you, it’s a slippery slope when the govt. decides what you can and can’t do with private property. I’d like to see a boycott of construction workers, you have the right to build but if you can’t get anyone to lay the brick and mortar thats going to be a pretty short building. In this economy, however, that’s not likely to happen.

Like I said, I do believe this is provocation (and respect your opinion to disagree with me) and if it is was well played.

90 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:01:58pm

dude…

91 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:02:21pm

re: #90 Aceofwhat?

dude…

Dude?

92 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:02:31pm

re: #89 9Iron

Why do you want construction workers to refuse to build a community center?

93 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:02:45pm

re: #91 EmmmieG

Dude?


Dude!

94 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:02:50pm

re: #85 EmmmieG

I thought you had the book with you. Nevermind.

I’ve heard that some books have started teaching that the Colonials had “food and clothes” at Concord & Lexington, which is just silly, because farmers didn’t store their food communally, and New Englanders didn’t have enough clothes to store it rather than wear it.

(Most Southerners didn’t, either, but I’ll bet Washington & Jefferson had excess clothing.)

They were storing military supplies, no? Powder and such?

95 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:03:06pm

re: #93 Aceofwhat?

Dude!

Dude…

*shaking head*

96 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:03:40pm

re: #94 SanFranciscoZionist

They were storing military supplies, no? Powder and such?

Oh, and the book with the Lazarus problem is the vocabulary text. They read a passage about the Statue of Liberty.

97 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:03:48pm

re: #94 SanFranciscoZionist

They were storing military supplies, no? Powder and such?


Of course. Why else would they have gone after them? I haven’t had access to an American History textbook in a while.

98 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:04:12pm

re: #95 EmmmieG

Dude…

*shaking head*

*plaintively* Duuude :(

99 gehazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:04:16pm

re: #83 Thanos

Its’ right here, question 24, add up the “Definitely True” and “probably true” responses to get the 52 pct

[Link: nw-assets.s3.amazonaws.com…]

In fairness, the question is not “does Obama want to enact sharia law,” but do you think “Barack Obama sympathizes with the goals of Islamic fundamentalists who want to impose Islamic law around the world.”

Those aren’t quite the same thing. Especially given his personality, I can see someone saying that he sympathizes with that desire even though he doesn’t seek it for the US.

Also, this survey is strange: 52% want the Bush tax cuts to expire.

100 ReamWorks SKG  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:04:38pm

re: #88 Aceofwhat?

The question is a little odd (#24)

Obama sympathizes with the goals of Islamic fundamentalists

Some people might reasonably believe that Obama is more sympathetic to the attitudes and needs of Islamic people than, say, George W. Bush was. People who over thought that question may have been more likely to answer “probably” or ‘probably not” even though they may not be opposed to Barack Obama in general.

(I would have said “Definately not true” because I would have tried to anticipate the motivation behind that question.)

101 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:04:57pm

re: #97 EmmmieG

Of course. Why else would they have gone after them? I haven’t had access to an American History textbook in a while.

I’ll check what ours says. Our series is pretty good.

What’s the point of changing that detail, anyway?

102 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:05:07pm

re: #87 reloadingisnotahobby

The Redcoats wanted the STASH of “Evil Guns and Ammo”!

Oops…
I forgot to mention the Militia relented and begged forgiveness
from the British Redcoats……They all had a pint and some Codfish Pie……
The End!
Or….The Militia gave up the Powder and Ammo one Volley at a time!

103 elbruce  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:05:17pm

re: #1 Aceofwhat?

This was easier to predict than the outcome of a tennis match between Federer…and me.

So he just hit another winning backwards between-the-legs shot now. It seems he perform this insanity at will:

104 gehazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:06:27pm

re: #99 gehazi

Nevermind, that 52% is all respondents, and it isn’t broken down by party affiliation.

105 9Iron  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:06:46pm

81 Aceofwhat?

Um, no, I’m not going to go back and read 20 threads. If your tired of the conversation then feel free to ignore me.

92 Obdicut

No, I want construction workers to refuse to build a mosque so close to ground zero that airline equipment fell on it. Anywhere else is fine.

I’m not a bomb thrower, I enjoy debate among reasonable people.

106 ReamWorks SKG  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:06:56pm

re: #99 gehazi

You and I made nearly the same point at the same time! Great minds…?

107 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:07:10pm

re: #101 SanFranciscoZionist

I’ll check what ours says. Our series is pretty good.

What’s the point of changing that detail, anyway?

The point would be, if this is true, to de-emphasize the importance of the colonists having guns & ammo to challenge their government.

I haven’t seen it, but then I haven’t looked, either.

108 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:07:11pm

re: #103 elbruce

So he just hit another winning backwards between-the-legs shot now. It seems he perform this insanity at will:


[Video]

it’s otherworldly. that guy is smoother than buttered butter.

109 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:07:13pm

re: #99 gehazi

In fairness, the question is not “does Obama want to enact sharia law,” but do you think “Barack Obama sympathizes with the goals of Islamic fundamentalists who want to impose Islamic law around the world.”

Those aren’t quite the same thing. Especially given his personality, I can see someone saying that he sympathizes with that desire even though he doesn’t seek it for the US.

Also, this survey is strange: 52% want the Bush tax cuts to expire.

How in God’s name does Barack Obama’s ‘personality’ lead anyone to think he’s sympathetic to Islamic fundamentalists? Against whom, at least in part, he is the CiC in not one but two wars?

110 ReamWorks SKG  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:07:50pm

re: #105 9Iron

9Iron, with all due respect, this issue is a trap, and you fell right into it. As did many a politician.

111 gehazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:07:54pm

re: #109 SanFranciscoZionist

He’s a very understanding guy. Who else could bring a white cop and a black professor together?

112 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:07:58pm

re: #98 Aceofwhat?

*plaintively* Duuude :(


Dude?!?

*eyebrow raised*

113 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:07:59pm

re: #89 9Iron

75 reuven

I agree with you, it’s a slippery slope when the govt. decides what you can and can’t do with private property. I’d like to see a boycott of construction workers, you have the right to build but if you can’t get anyone to lay the brick and mortar thats going to be a pretty short building. In this economy, however, that’s not likely to happen.

Like I said, I do believe this is provocation (and respect your opinion to disagree with me) and if it is was well played.

So, what you are saying is, you support the Taliban. Got it.

114 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:08:02pm

re: #107 EmmmieG

The point would be, if this is true, to de-emphasize the importance of the colonists having guns & ammo to challenge their government.

I haven’t seen it, but then I haven’t looked, either.

I’ll start looking around. Interesting.

115 elbruce  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:08:34pm

re: #99 gehazi

In fairness, the question is not “does Obama want to enact sharia law,” but do you think “Barack Obama sympathizes with the goals of Islamic fundamentalists who want to impose Islamic law around the world.”

Those aren’t quite the same thing. Especially given his personality, I can see someone saying that he sympathizes with that desire even though he doesn’t seek it for the US.

Only if that someone is the type who sees different groups of people as being more important than ideals. Imposing religious law, ours or theirs, here or there, is something that I’m quite certain Obama has no sympathy with whatsoever. If one thinks “well, he gets along with those people so he is probably sympathetic to a small minority of them establishing totalitarian theology over the rest,” then one has already made a hatful of bigoted assumptions about both him and them.

116 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:08:35pm

re: #105 9Iron

92 Obdicut

No, I want construction workers to refuse to build a mosque so close to ground zero that airline equipment fell on it. Anywhere else is fine.

I’m not a bomb thrower, I enjoy debate among reasonable people.

Ah, the Sacred Landing Gear argument…

117 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:08:36pm

re: #111 gehazi

He’s a very understanding guy. Who else could bring a white cop and a black professor together?

A doughnut maker?

*ducks*

118 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:08:45pm

re: #67 harlequinade

“If you can build a church on that site,” President Obama said, “if you can build a synagogue on that site or a Hindu temple on that site, then we can’t treat people of the Islamic faith differently, who are Americans. Who are American citizens. That is central to who we are.”

That’s 100% right. And he didn’t say it was a wise decision on their part.

119 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:08:58pm

re: #111 gehazi

He’s a very understanding guy. Who else could bring a white cop and a black professor together?

Blink blink?

120 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:09:06pm

re: #105 9Iron

81 Aceofwhat?

Um, no, I’m not going to go back and read 20 threads. If your tired of the conversation then feel free to ignore me.

I’m not a bomb thrower, I enjoy debate among reasonable people.

Reasonable people inform themselves prior to a debate. I wanted to head off any suspicion that you were being downdinged because your viewpoint is unpopular. Rather, you are meeting disapproval because your point is depressingly uninformed.

121 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:09:14pm

re: #111 gehazi

He’s a very understanding guy. Who else could bring a white cop and a black professor together?

Rhetorical???
If not …any one with a phone dialing 911!

122 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:09:43pm

re: #112 EmmmieG

Dude?!?

*eyebrow raised*

*eyes half-lidded, sloppy smile* duuude…

123 gehazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:10:11pm

re: #109 SanFranciscoZionist

But in all seriousness, his personality exudes…empathy. That may not be very precise, but I think it’s true.

124 elbruce  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:12:26pm

re: #105 9Iron

No, I want construction workers to refuse to build a mosque so close to ground zero that airline equipment fell on it. Anywhere else is fine.

No, it’s not. Propose another site. Or how about we use my idea and move ground zero somewhere else? I’ll set up a donation fund and collect money for that. How much can I put you down for?

The Park51 project is dedicated to supporting moderate forms of Islam that are consistent with Western democracy and opposing the kinds of extremist Islam that led to 9/11. If you treat the project as having anything to do with past terrorist acts, then you deny that there can be such a thing as moderate Islam, which is in itself a prejudicial and bigoted assumption. Furthermore, if you oppose Park51, then in practice you oppose moderate Islam and support extremist Islam.

125 harlequinade  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:12:46pm

re: #118 Spare O’Lake

He shouldn’t have to.

126 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:12:46pm

re: #105 9Iron

81 Aceofwhat?

Um, no, I’m not going to go back and read 20 threads. If your tired of the conversation then feel free to ignore me.

To follow on my previous reply: are you against the mosque inside of the Pentagon?

127 gehazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:13:17pm

re: #115 elbruce

I don’t know that everyone answering that question would understand “sympathizes” in that way. You’re almost certainly right for some portion of them, but probably not all.

128 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:14:15pm

re: #71 Obdicut

We lost that ground a long time ago. The reason people are objecting to the building of the community center is precisely because of them.

You are entitled to cynically believe that Americans have surrendered their domestic agendas to the terrorists if you wish, but I am not aware of any evidence to support your position.
Can you provide any?

129 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:14:40pm

re: #105 9Iron


No, I want construction workers to refuse to build a mosque so close to ground zero that airline equipment fell on it. Anywhere else is fine.

Why?

130 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:15:10pm

re: #126 Aceofwhat?

To follow on my previous reply: are you against the mosque inside of the Pentagon?

The Mosque was there before 9/11…
Not agreeing w/9iron….Just sayin!

131 gehazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:15:43pm

re: #119 SanFranciscoZionist

Blink blink?

I swear somebody linked that SNL cold open just the other day…a bit dated a reference, yes.

132 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:15:45pm

re: #128 Spare O’Lake

You are entitled to cynically believe that Americans have surrendered their domestic agendas to the terrorists if you wish, but I am not aware of any evidence to support your position.
Can you provide any?

I’m sorry, did you just not read my comment?

The furor over the community center is due to the actions of the Taliban, or rather, to Al Qaeda, pet of the Taliban. We have already let them play us. Our reaction to the community center is, as this piece shows, perfect for them.

133 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:15:49pm

re: #128 Spare O’Lake

You are entitled to cynically believe that Americans have surrendered their domestic agendas to the terrorists if you wish, but I am not aware of any evidence to support your position.
Can you provide any?

The movement to oppose the Islam as a whole is absolutely playing into the hands of terrorists. If you are part of that movement, you bought it hook, line, and sinker.

134 ShaunP  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:16:09pm

re: #83 Thanos

Its’ right here, question 24, add up the “Definitely True” and “probably true” responses to get the 52 pct

[Link: nw-assets.s3.amazonaws.com…]

This is a very interesting question:

15. Which ONE of the following do you think should have the higher priority for policy-makers in Washington RIGHT NOW… (READ AND ROTATE 1-2)?
37% Reducing the federal budget deficit (or)
57% Federal spending to create jobs (or)
6% Don’t know

135 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:16:12pm

re: #130 reloadingisnotahobby

The Mosque was there before 9/11…
Not agreeing w/9iron…Just sayin!

does it matter?

136 Yashmak  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:16:41pm

9iron,
I think that what you don’t understand, is that the 9/11 attackers target wasn’t the twin towers, or the Pentagon, or any particular building.

It was America as a nation… our beliefs, our freedoms, etc. etc. all of which are anathema to Al Qaeda and similar violent subsets of Islam.

That’s why all of this hateful bile being spewed by Americans against the Cordoba House is a victory for them. It’s a clear indication that they acheived (at least in part) their wider goal of damaging our religious freedoms and tolerance. It shows them they damaged what we are, which was their goal from the outset.

137 9Iron  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:17:07pm

110 reuven

Yes, I’m afraid I did. Fozzie Bear (113) apparently thinks I support the Taliban. And now AceofSpades thinks that if I’m not versed in the previous 20 threads and disagree with him “your point is depressingly uninformed.” So he is the arbiter of informed opinion. I am a holdover from this boards conservative days and don’t visit very often because of the intolerance of other views. But here I go again:

126 Aceofwhat?
No, I’m not against the mosque at the Pentagon. It apparently was there long before 9-11 and I see no reason why it should be torn out.

Would you be against a monument to Allied Air Power at Dresden?

138 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:17:08pm

re: #136 Yashmak

nice

139 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:18:00pm

re: #137 9Iron

Would you be against a monument to Allied Air Power at Dresden?

Would you care to elucidate why, in your opinion, this is anything other than an absurd and offensive comparison?

140 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:19:00pm

re: #137 9Iron

I’d say the democracy that’s present in Dresden is a monument to Allied air power already.

Hey, did you know there’s a Shinto shrine at Pearl Harbor?

[Link: www.japanprobe.com…]

141 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:19:24pm

re: #122 Aceofwhat?

*eyes half-lidded, sloppy smile* duuude…

You win. I’m all dude-ed out.

142 gehazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:19:39pm

re: #137 9Iron


Would you be against a monument to Allied Air Power at Dresden?

Because a community center is obviously a monument to those brave men who gave their lives to see thousands of Americans burn. //

143 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:19:41pm

re: #137 9Iron

110 reuven

Yes, I’m afraid I did. Fozzie Bear (113) apparently thinks I support the Taliban. A

Actuallu, I don’t think you consciously support them. A more accurate statement is that you are being played like a fiddle by them. You are more like an unconscious puppet than a sympathizer.

144 9Iron  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:19:53pm

139 Fozzie Bear

I honestly don’t know why that’s absurd, please explain why you would take offense at the comparison?

145 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:20:11pm

re: #135 Aceofwhat?

To some?
Yes !

146 9Iron  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:21:26pm

136 Yashmak

I agree with you on this, if they don’t build it it will be a propaganda victory. However, if they do build it don’t you think that will be seen as a victory as well? A mosque rising from the ashes of the this great attack on American capitalism?

147 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:22:19pm

re: #137 9Iron


126 Aceofwhat?
No, I’m not against the mosque at the Pentagon. It apparently was there long before 9-11 and I see no reason why it should be torn out.

Would you be against a monument to Allied Air Power at Dresden?


I’m a conservative, too, in case you brought extra martyr cookies.

But back to your question. When the mosque was built is irrelevant; this is why it’s an illuminating question. Our natural tendency, God bless us, is to tolerate peoples’ natural expression of religion. The mosque in the Pentagon serves muslims who serve there. The community center, which includes a mosque, at Park51 will serve the neighborhood in that area. Muslims living in that area don’t need to abdicate their ability to go to church just because some debris from a psychotic attack (in the name of a very different sect of Islam, mind you) made it that far from the attack point.

Remember how we sucked it up and resumed flying after 9/11, because we were determined to make flying safe? Well, practicing religion should be safe, too. Suck it up.

148 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:22:24pm

re: #146 9Iron

136 Yashmak

I agree with you on this, if they don’t build it it will be a propaganda victory. However, if they do build it don’t you think that will be seen as a victory as well? A mosque rising from the ashes of the this great attack on American capitalism?

It isn’t rising from the ashes. It’s a couple of blocks away, along with a bunch of other stuff.

149 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:22:59pm

re: #146 9Iron

How would Wahabists see a Sufi mosque as a victory?

You know they kill Sufis, right?

150 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:23:03pm

re: #146 9Iron

A mosque rising from the ashes of the this great attack on American capitalism?

You miss the Burlington Coat Factory a lot, don’t you.

151 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:23:30pm

re: #144 9Iron

139 Fozzie Bear

I honestly don’t know why that’s absurd, please explain why you would take offense at the comparison?

Do you think that the people trying to build the community center in Manhattan were part of the same movement that attacked us on 9/11, or are supporters of them? Can you explain the connection between Rauf and OBL? Because if you can’t, you have absolutely no rational basis for opposing the construction of park51.

That leaves only an irrational basis. You are being played by the people you hate most. How does it feel to be played by the people you hate most?

152 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:23:33pm

In the real world 14 + 38 still really equals 52. In the real world the column labeled “REP.” is recognized to be the percentage numbers for Republicans responding.

153 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:23:37pm

re: #146 9Iron

136 Yashmak

I agree with you on this, if they don’t build it it will be a propaganda victory. However, if they do build it don’t you think that will be seen as a victory as well? A mosque rising from the ashes of the this great attack on American capitalism?

A propaganda victory for muslims and non-muslims arguing that America, contrary to wacky rhetoric, does indeed tolerate Islam? Yes.

154 Yashmak  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:23:44pm

re: #146 9Iron

136 Yashmak

I agree with you on this, if they don’t build it it will be a propaganda victory. However, if they do build it don’t you think that will be seen as a victory as well? A mosque rising from the ashes of the this great attack on American capitalism?

A mosque whose leadership has spoken AGAINST violent jihad? A mosque that by all indications intends to promote moderation? Yes, it would be a victory. A victory for the USA and the great silent majority of Muslims all over the world who, like members of most other religions, would prefer to simply live their lives, have their jobs, and raise their kids in peace…

155 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:24:17pm

re: #132 Obdicut

I’m sorry, did you just not read my comment?

The furor over the community center is due to the actions of the Taliban, or rather, to Al Qaeda, pet of the Taliban. We have already let them play us. Our reaction to the community center is, as this piece shows, perfect for them.

Ah, so you didn’t mean that Americans were allowing the terrorists to set the agenda because of American concerns about aiding with recruitment or future Taliban acts, but rather you meant that the whole mosque kerfuffle is caused by the 9-11 attacks themselves. Is that really what you meant?

156 gehazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:24:30pm

re: #146 9Iron

To celebrate the ashes of America, we will build a grand new mosque community center right on top of a few blocks away with an imam who strikes fear into the hearts of the infidels spends almost all of his time attacking radical islamists like us!

Good plan.

157 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:24:48pm

re: #146 9Iron

136 Yashmak

I agree with you on this, if they don’t build it it will be a propaganda victory. However, if they do build it don’t you think that will be seen as a victory as well? A mosque rising from the ashes of the this great attack on American capitalism?

A Sufi community center built a good quarter-mile away from what a bunch of psychotic Wahabbists did? Yeah. I think we’ll be ok.

158 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:25:12pm

You know what I wanted on the WTC site? A carillon tower. I thought it would be meaningful to be able to listen to the bells and ponder on the lives lost.

Is there anything at all there right now?

159 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:26:31pm

re: #158 EmmmieG

Lawhawk looks at the site everyday from his office!!
Lot of steel going up………

160 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:26:31pm

re: #155 Spare O’Lake

Ah, so you didn’t mean that Americans were allowing the terrorists to set the agenda because of American concerns about aiding with recruitment or future Taliban acts, but rather you meant that the whole mosque kerfuffle is caused by the 9-11 attacks themselves. Is that really what you meant?

It should be obvious that such is the case. Do you not see how anti-Islamic sentiment in the US is more or less directly derived from the combination of Ignorant and misinformed Americans and the events of 9/11?

161 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:27:59pm

re: #155 Spare O’Lake

Ah, so you didn’t mean that Americans were allowing the terrorists to set the agenda because of American concerns about aiding with recruitment or future Taliban acts, but rather you meant that the whole mosque kerfuffle is caused by the 9-11 attacks themselves. Is that really what you meant?

What I meant is what I said, Spare. That’s why I said it.

By reacting with fear, ignorance, and bigotry to the Sufi’s community center, we have already let the Taliban dictate our actions. By showing intolerance for moderate Muslims because of our fear of radical Muslims, we are not only doing exactly what they want, but doing it solely because of them, because of their existence, because of their actions. It is a reactive thing.

Why do you insist on calling it a mosque, over and over again?

162 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:30:31pm

re: #133 Fozzie Bear

The movement to oppose the Islam as a whole is absolutely playing into the hands of terrorists. If you are part of that movement, you bought it hook, line, and sinker.

I am assuredly not, as you would know if you ever bothered to actually read my posts. I have maintained, even before the Obama “wisdom” backtrack, that the decision to locate the mosque there was unwise because it would cause hurt to many of the 9-11 families and would cause religious strife in America.
And guess what? When I look at the shit that’s been going down I feel that my position has been and continues to be correct.

163 9Iron  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:33:53pm

147 Aceofwhat?

I think the differences of opinions on this really stem from the differences in perceived intent. You apparently see this community center as an innocent facility used by Muslims to practice their faith, something that nobody could disagree with. I don’t see the “outreach” and “bridge building” that the Imam claims to support passing the smell test. The majority of 9-11 families are against it being built there, the majority of Americans don’t support it being built there, the launch date of 9-11-11 is clearly not a coincidence, and instead of “building bridges” it is inflaming passions on both sides regardless of which side you’re on. If this Imam wanted to show goodwill, he would have at least discussed with Gov. Patterson other options for its location (even if none other were found). You obviously find the whole thing innocent, I find it suspicious and that’s where the rubber meets the road. That being said, I don’t think your ignorant for your view, we just disagree. I would hope the same courtesy could be said for my difference in opinion.

164 gehazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:34:04pm

re: #162 Spare O’Lake

I am assuredly not, as you would know if you ever bothered to actually read my posts. I have maintained, even before the Obama “wisdom” backtrack, that the decision to locate the mosque there was unwise because it would cause hurt to many of the 9-11 families and would cause religious strife in America.
And guess what? When I look at the shit that’s been going down I feel that my position has been and continues to be correct.

Those damn muslims, making us conservatives throw a shitstorm. //

165 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:34:59pm

re: #163 9Iron

the launch date of 9-11-11 is clearly not a coincidence,

They’re lying to you, and you are swallowing it hook, line, and sinker.

166 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:35:48pm

re: #143 Fozzie Bear

Actuallu, I don’t think you consciously support them. A more accurate statement is that you are being played like a fiddle by them. You are more like an unconscious puppet than a sympathizer.

That fiddle and puppet stuff is so commie chic. Lose it if you want to be taken seriously.

167 Skeetghazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:36:06pm

Repost (sorry) but it probably belongs in this thread more

SEATTLE – A man accused of punching a man wearing a turban at a Seattle convenience store has been charged with malicious harassment - a hate crime - and assault.

KOMO News reports 35-year-old Brock R. Stainbrook of Seattle yelled, “You’re not even American, you’re al-Qaida. Go back to your country.”

A store employee broke up the Aug. 24 attack, and Stainbrook was arrested a few blocks away.

Read more: [Link: www.thenewstribune.com…]

168 zora  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:36:30pm

re: #118 Spare O’Lake

That’s 100% right. And he didn’t say it was a wise decision on their part.

his point, i believe, was that the wisdom of it was irrelevant since the legality is unquestionable. it’s america, that’s how we roll.

169 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:37:16pm

re: #162 Spare O’Lake

You really are an unrepentant bigot, Spare. You are just incapable of understanding that the negative sentiments surrounding the community center (which you repeatedly insist of calling a mosque) stem entirely from bigots like yourself, and are not in any way derived from the actions of Rauf of the organizers trying to build Park51.

The community center isn’t “causing” religious strife. Bigots like yourself are. Did the Jews “cause” Hitler to kill them? Did Japanese Americans “cause” the US to round them up in concentration camps during WWII? Do rape victims “cause” their rapes by having vaginas?

You disgust me, Spare. *spit*

170 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:37:29pm

re: #163 9Iron

That being said, I don’t think your ignorant for your view, we just disagree. I would hope the same courtesy could be said for my difference in opinion.

I think you are ignorant. Not stupid, just uninformed. That said, if you continue to regurgitate the lies you’ve been fed and refuse to look at facts, you will continue to feel uncomfortable here, because people will call you ignorant. Get used to it, or go look up some facts (there are tags at the bottom of every post here) or go away.

171 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:38:27pm

re: #86 Obdicut

They had arms and powder.

My biggest guff with the way the American Revolution is taught is underteaching the importance of the French and Spanish entry into the war.

A good percentage of my fathers side of the family have the first or middle name Lafayette.

172 gehazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:40:07pm

re: #168 zora

his point, i believe, was that the wisdom of it was irrelevant since the legality is unquestionable. it’s america, that’s how we roll.

That sweet first amendment. Keeping American awesome, one day at a time.

173 gehazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:40:24pm

re: #172 gehazi

America, rather.

174 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:42:20pm

re: #168 zora

his point, i believe, was that the wisdom of it was irrelevant since the legality is unquestionable. it’s america, that’s how we roll.

Are you trying to tell me that, as a general proposition, real Americans do not express peaceful criticism or opposition to actions which they freely admit are legal?
Because if that’s what you are saying, you are sadly mistaken.

175 justaminute  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:42:58pm

9Iron and Spare O’Lake the Onion has a quote from a fellow supporter of your thinking and applies to you both as well: “I know all I’m going to let myself know.”

176 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:42:59pm

re: #162 Spare O’Lake

Why not take some responsibility for fomenting the strife, Spare?

And why do you keep calling it a mosque?

177 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:43:19pm

re: #163 9Iron

147 Aceofwhat?

I think the differences of opinions on this really stem from the differences in perceived intent. You apparently see this community center as an innocent facility used by Muslims to practice their faith, something that nobody could disagree with. I don’t see the “outreach” and “bridge building” that the Imam claims to support passing the smell test. The majority of 9-11 families are against it being built there, the majority of Americans don’t support it being built there, the launch date of 9-11-11 is clearly not a coincidence, and instead of “building bridges” it is inflaming passions on both sides regardless of which side you’re on. If this Imam wanted to show goodwill, he would have at least discussed with Gov. Patterson other options for its location (even if none other were found). You obviously find the whole thing innocent, I find it suspicious and that’s where the rubber meets the road. That being said, I don’t think your ignorant for your view, we just disagree. I would hope the same courtesy could be said for my difference in opinion.

Again, when I wish to charge on to this or another blog with a somewhat contrarian opinion, i at least read through some of the past discussions on the topic so that i don’t ask other posters to rehash what has already been said. I find that to be the courteous approach, personally.

And you are correct. I find a Sufi structure, part community center and part chapel (are there a lot of other multi-use buildings with a chapel inside that you insist on calling “churches”?) to be entirely different from a Wahabist-funded and wahabist-run mosque. You can’t just call it all “Islam” and expect your opinion to be relevant. Surely someone as concerned as you would know a bit more about such important details…

178 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:43:55pm

re: #162 Spare O’Lake

I am assuredly not, as you would know if you ever bothered to actually read my posts. I have maintained, even before the Obama “wisdom” backtrack,

I’ve never really thought that was a backtrack, but a statement not questioning the wisdom of the local authorities involved in the decision making process, as opposed to the wisdom of building a mosque there.

179 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:44:01pm

re: #170 wrenchwench

I think you are ignorant. Not stupid, just uninformed. That said, if you continue to regurgitate the lies you’ve been fed and refuse to look at facts, you will continue to feel uncomfortable here, because people will call you ignorant. Get used to it, or go look up some facts (there are tags at the bottom of every post here) or go away.

That is extremely arrogant. I sure don’t feel that way.

180 sliv_the_eli  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:45:28pm

re: #30 Charles

For my part, I view the Newsweek article as akin to those who accused anyone who was not 100% supportive of the Cordoba House project of being a religious bigot. Now the charge being leveled, albeit implicitly, is that anyone who opposes the project, or even raises qualms about it, supports killing our troops. It represents, IMHO, the worst of political discourse, in which we surrender the duty to argue a position and convince one another on the merits and instead reduce the argument to explicit or implicit ad hominem attacks.

The sad reality is that the Islamists, including AQ (yes, AQ is not the only Islamist group that poses a danger to the U.S. and its allies), do not need this controversy to recruit. The mere presence of American troops in what they consider to be the dar-al-Islam, the mere fact that Muslims are killed anywhere by any Westerner (regardless of the blood and treasure that the U.S. has spent to protect Muslims) and the simple fact of U.S. support for Israel is more than sufficient for them to recruit followers. While the Cordoba House project has been a major issue on LGF and in the American media for the past several weeks, it is, by comparison, a mere fly on an elephant’s posterior.

181 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:45:37pm

re: #178 Jeff In Ohio

Obama’s point— lost on those who now hold so dearly to the emotions they were busy mocking when it came to Supreme Court Justices— was that the wisdom doesn’t enter into it. It just doesn’t matter.

182 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:46:14pm

re: #179 Spare O’Lake

That is extremely arrogant. I sure don’t feel that way.

OK, so you won’t call him ignorant. I don’t mean it in a pejorative sense, but in the literal sense of not knowing the facts. Do you think he’s got a good grasp of the facts?

183 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:46:40pm

re: #180 sliv_the_eli

Nobody said they needed it to recruit.

What is said is that it’s helpful to them to recruit.

184 zora  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:47:57pm

re: #174 Spare O’Lake

Are you trying to tell me that, as a general proposition, real Americans do not express peaceful criticism or opposition to actions which they freely admit are legal?
Because if that’s what you are saying, you are sadly mistaken.

sure they do, but putting words in obama’s mouth or misrepresenting them is just you projecting your feelings onto him.

185 Yashmak  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:48:55pm

re: #179 Spare O’Lake

I don’t think he claimed to be speaking for everyone.

186 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:49:35pm

re: #179 Spare O’Lake

That is extremely arrogant. I sure don’t feel that way.

If you want to criticize me for a mean comment, it was the coat factory one.

187 blueraven  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:50:15pm

re: #163 9Iron

147 Aceofwhat?

I think the differences of opinions on this really stem from the differences in perceived intent. You apparently see this community center as an innocent facility used by Muslims to practice their faith, something that nobody could disagree with. I don’t see the “outreach” and “bridge building” that the Imam claims to support passing the smell test. The majority of 9-11 families are against it being built there, the majority of Americans don’t support it being built there, the launch date of 9-11-11 is clearly not a coincidence, and instead of “building bridges” it is inflaming passions on both sides regardless of which side you’re on. If this Imam wanted to show goodwill, he would have at least discussed with Gov. Patterson other options for its location (even if none other were found). You obviously find the whole thing innocent, I find it suspicious and that’s where the rubber meets the road. That being said, I don’t think your ignorant for your view, we just disagree. I would hope the same courtesy could be said for my difference in opinion.

You really need to inform yourself. What you have written here is outright lies and half truths. There is and never was a plan to “launch” on 9/11. Where is your proof that a majority of 9/11 families oppose park51?
If you are going to debate, get the facts man.

188 Skeetghazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:50:33pm

re: #179 Spare O’Lake

That is extremely arrogant. I sure don’t feel that way.

Not arrogant at all. Please.

189 9Iron  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:50:41pm

170 wrenchwench

Must be nice to KNOW that your much smarter and well informed than 72% of the population surveyed about this issue. I’m not saying I’m right here, and I’m not saying your wrong for you taking your side of the argument, I’m saying that you are an incredibly arrogant human being. Keep your eyes closed and dismiss counter points of view as ignorant and you’ll just make yourself smarter in your own head.

177 Aceofwhat?

You’re correct, I have not been following this blog and the comments closely in quite a while. I just wanted to jump in and test my point of view with others that obviously follow these issues closely. I have not changed my mind, but you have given me some things to think about re: different sects of Islam. Thank you for your time.

190 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:52:23pm

re: #189 9Iron

Ignorance actually exists. Calling it arrogant to point it out doesn’t do a damn thing about it.

The majority thinking something is true doesn’t make it so, at all, in any way, shape, or form. There is no relationship, at all, between majority opinion and truth.

Why do you think there is?

191 elbruce  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:52:26pm

re: #137 9Iron

Would you be against a monument to Allied Air Power at Dresden?

You’re suggesting that the Park51 project is a monument to Al Qaeda. That’s what you’re saying.

192 sliv_the_eli  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:52:39pm

re: #154 Yashmak


I don’t think 9iron was arguing whether, objectively, the building of an Islamic community center dedicated to dialogue and co-existence would be a victory for the principles for which the USA stands. Rather, he points out, correctly I believe, that the Islamists, such as the Taleban and AQ, have demonstrated they are as ready, willing and able to spin either side of this controversy to their recruiting benefit. If the project is stopped or moved, they will argue that the USA is engaged in a war on Islam in general, and if the project goes forward and is built, they will argue that the West is weak, that the project is a monument to their success and our surrender and that the expansion of the dar-al-Islam to include the dcadent West is inevitable. And anyone who thinks they will not portrary it that way has simply not been listening to what AQ’s leadership and the USA’s other adversaries in the Middle East have actually been saying about us for decades.

193 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:53:44pm

This discussion leaves no room for nuance - either you support America and cherish the memory of those who perished in this vicious attack by opposing the mosque and the very presence (aka threat) of Islam on our soil or you want to see a moral victory for fundamentalist Islam.

Attempts at putting it into rational perspective like Obama’s “they have every Constitutional right to build it even if it ain’t such a swift move” are taken as proof of his lack of resolve.

194 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:54:09pm

re: #189 9Iron

170 wrenchwench

Must be nice to KNOW that your much smarter and well informed than 72% of the population surveyed about this issue. I’m not saying I’m right here, and I’m not saying your wrong for you taking your side of the argument, I’m saying that you are an incredibly arrogant human being. Keep your eyes closed and dismiss counter points of view as ignorant and you’ll just make yourself smarter in your own head.

177 Aceofwhat?

You’re correct, I have not been following this blog and the comments closely in quite a while. I just wanted to jump in and test my point of view with others that obviously follow these issues closely. I have not changed my mind, but you have given me some things to think about re: different sects of Islam. Thank you for your time.

Having a knee-jerk opposition to all things Islamic isn’t a “point of view”. It’s ignorance. That 72% of Americans agree only highlights the scope of the ignorance. It doesn’t make it ok.

195 harlequinade  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:54:14pm

re: #168 zora

his point, i believe, was that the wisdom of it was irrelevant since the legality is unquestionable. it’s america, that’s how we roll.

Quoted for Truth

196 sliv_the_eli  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:54:15pm

re: #158 EmmmieG

Yes. Although later than many of us would have wished, you can hear the sound of American construction workers of all races, religions and ethnicities banging steel on steel to rebuild what was knocked down.

197 Skeetghazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:54:41pm

re: #193 ralphieboy

Attempts at putting it into rational perspective like Obama’s “they have every Constitutional right to build it even if it ain’t such a swift move” are taken as proof of his lack of resolve.

What? Earwax?

198 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:54:50pm

re: #189 9Iron

I’m not saying I’m right here, and I’m not saying your wrong for you taking your side of the argument, I’m saying that you are an incredibly arrogant human being. Keep your eyes closed and dismiss counter points of view as ignorant and you’ll just make yourself smarter in your own head.

All I’m saying is that I am better informed than you are. I am not dismissing your point of view as ignorant, I am describing your point of view as ignorant. If you have other facts at hand to show me you are correct and I am wrong, this is the place to show your hand. All I see is the back of your cards and your opinion of your hand.

199 gehazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:55:14pm

re: #190 Obdicut

Where’s that Kierkegaard quote…

Truth always rests with the minority, and the minority is always stronger than the majority, because the minority is generally formed by those who really have an opinion, while the strength of a majority is illusory, formed by the gangs who have no opinion — and who, therefore, in the next instant (when it is evident that the minority is the stronger) assume its opinion… while truth again reverts to a new minority.
200 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:55:21pm

re: #193 ralphieboy

This discussion leaves no room for nuance - either you support America and cherish the memory of those who perished in this vicious attack by opposing the mosque and the very presence (aka threat) of Islam on our soil or you want to see a moral victory for fundamentalist Islam.

Attempts at putting it into rational perspective like Obama’s “they have every Constitutional right to build it even if it ain’t such a swift move” are taken as proof of his lack of resolve.

The concept of “rule of law” is lost on authoritarian theocratic types.

201 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:56:03pm

Once again, is the War on Terror a war between the Christian West and the Islamic World or is it a war between progessive englightened societies and backwards fundamentalist ones?

And if it is the latter, which side is the US on?

202 sliv_the_eli  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:56:05pm

re: #160 Fozzie Bear

Fozzie: Good point, and i agree wholeheartedly. On the other hand anti-Islamist sentiment is probably more the province of the informed than of the ignorant.

203 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:56:29pm

re: #189 9Iron

177 Aceofwhat?

You’re correct, I have not been following this blog and the comments closely in quite a while. I just wanted to jump in and test my point of view with others that obviously follow these issues closely. I have not changed my mind, but you have given me some things to think about re: different sects of Islam. Thank you for your time.

anytime

204 Skeetghazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:58:16pm

re: #198 wrenchwench

All I’m saying is that I am better informed than you are. I am not dismissing your point of view as ignorant, I am describing your point of view as ignorant. If you have other facts at hand to show me you are correct and I am wrong, this is the place to show your hand. All I see is the back of your cards and your opinion of your hand.

I’m looking for the opening date of 9/11 link. One that isn’t Pam Geller.

205 elbruce  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:58:21pm

re: #189 9Iron

170 wrenchwench

Must be nice to KNOW that your much smarter and well informed than 72% of the population surveyed about this issue.

Actually I wish they were as informed on it as I. I’m not saying I’m better than them, but I certainly have spent more time looking into the matter than average. The same could be said for most people here, solely by virtue of the fact that we participate in political discussions online, if nothing else. A broad survey is going to give you the information fed to us by the mainstream media, which frequently isn’t much. Especially since the MSM has given up on reporting facts, and gone over to reporting other peoples’ opinions (usually whoever yells the loudest). In any case, some people know more about it, and some less. I think that if this story stays in the media cyle, you’ll see that number swing rapidly, as reporters become forced to turn in new angles on the same old story, and thus actually end up having to report some facts - what the Park51 project entails, what the Cordoba Initiative stands for, Imam Rauf’s history and what he’s written on these subjects, etc.

According to the crosstabs of that survey, a majority of Manhattanites supported Park51. Who is the rest of the country to tell them what they can or can’t build? For that matter, should we replace the Bill of Rights with snap polling? Because if so, I can go have Zogby tell me that Glenn Beck should be hung from the highest tree right now.

206 Yashmak  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:58:51pm

re: #192 sliv_the_eli

I do understand what you are saying… believe me. Because they can spin it however, they want;
If the mosque is stopped, jihadists win.
If the mosque is built, jihadists win.

But in only one of those situations are the ideals of American religious freedom and tolerance expressed.

I don’t really CARE how the jihadists portray it, and if it works to their advantage either way, it doesn’t really matter, does it? What matters is if we allow ourselves to abandon our ideals on a spasm of reactionary bigotry.

207 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:59:13pm

re: #203 Aceofwhat?

anytime

You win. You made him think, I just made him mad.

208 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:00:07pm

re: #206 Yashmak

I do understand what you are saying… believe me. Because they can spin it however, they want;
If the mosque is stopped, jihadists win.
If the mosque is built, jihadists win.

But in only one of those situations are the ideals of American religious freedom and tolerance expressed.

I don’t really CARE how the jihadists portray it, and if it works to their advantage either way, it doesn’t really matter, does it? What matters is if we allow ourselves to abandon our ideals on a spasm of reactionary bigotry.

Remember John Stesart’s bit about what your crazy ex-girlfriend is going to think about the new curtains you’re putting in?

She is going to hate them whatever they are because she’s F*CKING CRAZY!!!

209 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:00:23pm

re: #176 Obdicut

Why not take some responsibility for fomenting the strife, Spare?

And why do you keep calling it a mosque?

I call it a mosque because unlike others I acknowledge the indisputable fact that it is the religious component of the development i.e. the mosque, which attracts the constitutional protection and hence the unassailable legality.
It is the wisdom of the decision which I have and continue to question, and I have told you why - empathy for many 9-11 victims and fear of widespread religious strife in America.
You can believe whatever you want about my motives, but your characterization of my “fomenting the strife” seems to me a bit of an overstatement to say the least.

210 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:02:50pm

I am worried that Muslims are increasingly finding themselves threatened and even attacked. I do not want to begin to think about what sort of “revenge” these sort of deranged people will start extracting from peaceful Muslims if there is another Islamis terrorist attack on US territory.

211 9Iron  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:03:47pm

207 wrenchwench

You win. You made him think, I just made him mad.

You don’t make me mad in the least. You don’t debate, you stick to talking points and call the opposition names. Yours is not a conversation I care to have. Best of luck to you in the future.

212 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:03:50pm

re: #209 Spare O’Lake

I call it a mosque because unlike others I acknowledge the indisputable fact that it is the religious component of the development i.e. the mosque, which attracts the constitutional protection and hence the unassailable legality.
It is the wisdom of the decision which I have and continue to question, and I have told you why - empathy for many 9-11 victims and fear of widespread religious strife in America.
You can believe whatever you want about my motives, but your characterization of my “fomenting the strife” seems to me a bit of an overstatement to say the least.

Actually the fact that it is private property makes it unassailable. The issue of religious orientation hasn’t (and won’t) come into it, because it isn’t relevant.

Have you ever questioned the wisdom of criticizing a Sufi for things that Wahhabists did?

213 sliv_the_eli  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:05:08pm

re: #183 Obdicut

By that standard, anything said by anyone is “helpful” to their recruiting efforts, because they are not bound by the actual truth of how they portray those words. For that reason, I find the Newsweek article to provide no real information and to add nothing of real substance to the discussion. My opinion, for whatever it’s worth, is that the Newsweek piece is driven more by a desire to shout down opposition to the project by ad hominem attack than a desire to truly inform the public about a substantive matter. Call me cynical, but I long ago stopped treating “news articles” as though they are devoid of editorial viewpoints.

214 ShaunP  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:05:53pm

re: #211 9Iron

207 wrenchwench

You don’t make me mad in the least. You don’t debate, you stick to talking points and call the opposition names. Yours is not a conversation I care to have. Best of luck to you in the future.

Can we switch to using the “quote” button? It’s much easier to follow the conversation that way…

215 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:07:04pm

re: #211 9Iron

207 wrenchwench

You don’t make me mad in the least. You don’t debate, you stick to talking points and call the opposition names. Yours is not a conversation I care to have. Best of luck to you in the future.

Your position is ignorant. That’s not calling you a name. Once you inform yourself, you will no longer be unaware of the facts. Simple. Sorry you find it offensive.

Which one of my posts was the talking point? The coat factory one?

216 Yashmak  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:07:23pm

re: #213 sliv_the_eli

They sources they spoke with distinctly indicated that the outpouring of anti-Islamic sentiment in America has driven new recruits to them like nothing in recent history.

That in itself is the most pivotal piece of information in the article. The rest is just clothing for that point to wear.

217 sagehen  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:07:28pm

re: #163 9Iron

147 Aceofwhat?

I think the differences of opinions on this really stem from the differences in perceived intent. You apparently see this community center as an innocent facility used by Muslims to practice their faith, something that nobody could disagree with. I don’t see the “outreach” and “bridge building” that the Imam claims to support passing the smell test. The majority of 9-11 families are against it being built there, the majority of Americans don’t support it being built there, the launch date of 9-11-11 is clearly not a coincidence, and instead of “building bridges” it is inflaming passions on both sides regardless of which side you’re on. If this Imam wanted to show goodwill, he would have at least discussed with Gov. Patterson other options for its location (even if none other were found). You obviously find the whole thing innocent, I find it suspicious and that’s where the rubber meets the road. That being said, I don’t think your ignorant for your view, we just disagree. I would hope the same courtesy could be said for my difference in opinion.

It is outreach and bridge building — in the sense that this is a facility the area *needs*. WTC environs isn’t just “the sacred site that all America must pay eternal homage to,” it’s an actual living breathing neighborhood full of residents. Hundreds of thousands of them. Y’know, people who buy groceries and push their kids’ strollers down the sidewalk and would really like a local pool and an indoor playspace and other functions this building will serve. The Imam and his wife have been working closely with the uptown JCC and its directors, not just on this project but on a multitude of interfaith endeavors for more than 20 years. He’s not some random guy with a mysterious past.

It’s anybody’s guess what the majority of 9-11 families think about it, since nobody’s polled them. I’ve seen people speaking out on both sides.

The launch date of 9/11/11 is complete fiction, put forth by the anti-building faction.

The community board approved this project *unanimously.* Do you really think the residents and business interests of lower Manhattan don’t know how to do due diligence?

218 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:08:18pm

re: #209 Spare O’Lake

I call it a mosque because unlike others I acknowledge the indisputable fact that it is the religious component of the development i.e. the mosque, which attracts the constitutional protection and hence the unassailable legality.

You have repeatedly proven that you don’t know shit about the constitution. Again, in this case, you prove it: it is not that it is a mosque that gives it constitutional protection, but that the only grounds it is being objected to on are that the builders are Muslim.

Why do you have the impression you know anything about the US Constitution, when you’ve been repeatedly so very wrong about it, so many times?

It is the wisdom of the decision which I have and continue to question, and I have told you why - empathy for many 9-11 victims and fear of widespread religious strife in America.

Why are you fomenting that strife, then, with your repeated attacks on Rauf?

You can believe whatever you want about my motives, but your characterization of my “fomenting the strife” seems to me a bit of an overstatement to say the least.

You’ve been called out for it by Charles. You ride the bottom ten every day because of the stupid shit you say. Acting surprised is silly.

219 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:09:40pm

re: #213 sliv_the_eli

No. We actually are displaying massive bigotry to Muslims. That actually is verifiably true. Otherwise moderate Muslims may be driven towards extremism by the intolerance.

What is not easily understood about that?

220 sliv_the_eli  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:13:55pm

re: #206 Yashmak

We do not disagree on your basic point. Where we may part ways is that I believe the right of Cordoba House opponents to hold and esposue their position, whether based on bigotry, emotion or informed opposition, to be just as fundamental and important to the concept of ordered liberty that is the basis of our constitutional republic. I therefore view the ad hominem attacks on anyone who takes a position other than enthusastic support of the project to be as dangerous as the religous bigotry that clearly motivates many of the project’s opponents.

221 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:13:55pm

re: #219 Obdicut

No. We actually are displaying massive bigotry to Muslims. That actually is verifiably true. Otherwise moderate Muslims may be driven towards extremism by the intolerance.

What is not easily understood about that?

There are some important nuances that are being drowned out by the shouting, namely that there are different sorts of Muslims.

There are those who do not practice the faith actively or obey its laws and tenets, they simply identify with Islam as part of their cultural and social heritage.

There are those who practice it privately as a means of leading abetter and more moral life, but also do not strictly observe all of its laws, nor do they wish to impose them on ohters.

There are those who observe it closely and might like to see it spread, but not use by force or violence.

And there are those who would use force of arms and violence to see it spread.

Only the latter are a threat, and lumping akk Muslims all into one category is seriously counterproductive.

222 elbruce  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:14:21pm

re: #209 Spare O’Lake

I call it a mosque because unlike others I acknowledge the indisputable fact that it is the religious component of the development i.e. the mosque, which attracts the constitutional protection and hence the unassailable legality.

I call it a mosque because Park51’s website does. Checkit. Eighth item down, right above the 9/11 memorial.

223 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:14:40pm

re: #213 sliv_the_eli

By that standard, anything said by anyone is “helpful” to their recruiting efforts, because they are not bound by the actual truth of how they portray those words. For that reason, I find the Newsweek article to provide no real information and to add nothing of real substance to the discussion. My opinion, for whatever it’s worth, is that the Newsweek piece is driven more by a desire to shout down opposition to the project by ad hominem attack than a desire to truly inform the public about a substantive matter. Call me cynical, but I long ago stopped treating “news articles” as though they are devoid of editorial viewpoints.

Shame plays a role in public discourse. Sadly, some people have no shame.

224 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:15:56pm

re: #220 sliv_the_eli

I therefore view the ad hominem attacks on anyone who takes a position other than enthusastic support of the project to be as dangerous as the religous bigotry that clearly motivates many of the project’s opponents.

Nuance is dead. For or against, buddy…pick your sides and choose your weapons. Last religion left standing wins.

/

225 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:17:23pm

re: #207 wrenchwench

You win. You made him think, I just made him mad.

ain’t nuthin’ wrong with a little goodcopbadcop;)

226 elbruce  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:17:58pm

re: #220 sliv_the_eli

I therefore view the ad hominem attacks on anyone who takes a position other than enthusastic support of the project to be as dangerous as the religous bigotry that clearly motivates many of the project’s opponents.

Nah, it’s not nearly as dangerous. Calling someone an asshat doesn’t nearly amount to the equivalent of advocating them being stripped of their constitutional rights based on their race or religion. The latter is much worse.

And frankly, the psycho liars could use some name-calling directed their way. Being nice to them doesn’t seem to be working - just ask President Kerry.

227 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:21:03pm

re: #212 Fozzie Bear

Actually the fact that it is private property makes it unassailable. The issue of religious orientation hasn’t (and won’t) come into it, because it isn’t relevant.

Have you ever questioned the wisdom of criticizing a Sufi for things that Wahhabists did?

You are mistaken about the legality. Private property rights can be overridden by constitutionally valid legislation e.g. eminent domain. Hence it is the religious protection which would prevent that result.

228 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:22:19pm

re: #227 Spare O’Lake

You are mistaken about the legality. Private property rights can be overridden by constitutionally valid legislation e.g. eminent domain. Hence it is the religious protection which would prevent that result.


Then use eminent domain: We need that property for a new government Ministry of Fairness and Balance in Media.

229 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:24:34pm

re: #227 Spare O’Lake

You are mistaken about the legality. Private property rights can be overridden by constitutionally valid legislation e.g. eminent domain. Hence it is the religious protection which would prevent that result.

The property rights were never challenged, There was no legislation or attempt at invoking eminent domain. So no, religion has never been a legal issue regarding park51. Nothing has. There is no legal issue.

The only issue is how long theocrats will keep complaining that we have religious freedoms here.

230 sliv_the_eli  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:24:50pm

re: #216 Yashmak

And that may, and likely is, true to some extent. However, let’s take a cynic’s-eye view of the conversation upon which that claim is based. We have, on the one hand, a “Taliban operative” who is probably mroe aptly described as a “Taliban spokesman” and, on the other, a representative of a Western media outlet of relatively known political leanings. If you were the “Taliban operative”, would you say anything other than what Zabihullah reportedly said?

231 elbruce  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:26:45pm

re: #227 Spare O’Lake

You are mistaken about the legality. Private property rights can be overridden by constitutionally valid legislation e.g. eminent domain. Hence it is the religious protection which would prevent that result.

Too late, they’ve already completed all of the paperwork and hearings they need to have a clear go-ahead. There are no legal hurdles whatsoever between now and construction.

Which brings up the question of why people are wasting their breath complaining about it at all. The folks driving this thing know they can’t stop it, they just want to get uninformed people riled up and collect donations. Maybe some of the people trying to stop the “ground zero mosque” now will show up when they try to organize a more virulent anti-Moslem event in the future.

232 simoom  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:28:11pm

re: #193 ralphieboy

Attempts at putting it into rational perspective like Obama’s “they have every Constitutional right to build it even if it ain’t such a swift move” are taken as proof of his lack of resolve.

I think your paraphrasing of Obama’s position is off-base. I think a better summary would be that while he doesn’t want to endorse any specific religious project, that Park 51, and other Muslim building projects across the country, should be treated in the same way as building projects of other faiths, and be allowed to proceed. That showing tolerance and acceptance of our nation’s diversity is critical not only to our national identity, but also strengthens our hand in the war of ideas with our enemies.

Relevant quotes:

“If you can build a church on that site. If you can build a synagogue on that site or a Hindu Temple on that site, then we can’t treat people of the Islamic faith differently, who are Americans, who are American citizens. That is central to who we are. That is a core value of our Constitution. And my job as President is to make sure in part that we’re upholding our Constitution.”

“I was not endorsing any particular project. I was endorsing our Constitution. And what is right.”
—-
“As a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country. And that includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances. This is America. And our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable. The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country and that they will not be treated differently by their government is essential to who we are. The writ of the Founders must endure.”

“Our capacity to show not merely tolerance, but respect towards those who are different from us –- and that way of life, that quintessentially American creed, stands in stark contrast to the nihilism of those who attacked us on that September morning, and who continue to plot against us today.”

“We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus —- and non-believers. We are shaped by every language and every culture, drawn from every end of this Earth. And that diversity can bring difficult debates. This is not unique to our time. Past eras have seen controversies about the construction of synagogues or Catholic churches. But time and again, the American people have demonstrated that we can work through these issues, and stay true to our core values, and emerge stronger for it. So it must be -– and will be -– today.”

[Link: religion.blogs.cnn.com…]

233 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:33:19pm

re: #232 simoom


Yes, it is a rather loose paraphrasing, he later refused to comment on the “wisdom” of building it there.

Which is my point as well. I don’t think it is such a great idea, but there are absolutely no legal grounds on which to oppose it.

234 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:35:32pm

re: #218 Obdicut

You have repeatedly proven that you don’t know shit about the constitution. Again, in this case, you prove it: it is not that it is a mosque that gives it constitutional protection, but that the only grounds it is being objected to on are that the builders are Muslim.
Why do you have the impression you know anything about the US Constitution, when you’ve been repeatedly so very wrong about it, so many times?
Why are you fomenting that strife, then, with your repeated attacks on Rauf?
You’ve been called out for it by Charles. You ride the bottom ten every day because of the stupid shit you say. Acting surprised is silly.

Look, fool, if there was no mosque in the project there would be no controversy, and your courts would zero in on that like a heat seeking missile.
As for my questioning the credentials and trustworthiness of Rauf, I stand by everything I have written. Every single word, and I don’t think Charles really loses a lot of sleep about my dissenting views on this, so why do you need to keep trying to make it otherwise?
It’s not a popularity contest here for me, in case you haven’t noticed, and I will never be silenced by puerile downdinging.
There is only one person on this site who can silence me.

235 sliv_the_eli  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:38:31pm

re: #219 Obdicut

Who is this “we” of whom you speak? Your statement is correct only to the extent you refer to that part of “we” that has, in fact, engaged in generically anti-Muslim behavor or expressed generally anti-Muslim sentiment. However, “we” do not exist. “We” are a random collection — in this country, at least — of 300+ million individuals. Some portions of “we” were directly affected by the events of 9/11 and hold their position out of personal pain. Some portions of “we” were indirectly affected by the events of 9/11 and have concerns about whether placing an Islamic community center in the general vicinity of Ground Zero is insensitive to those more directly affected. Some portions of “we” support the cordoba Hosue project for various reasons. In other words, there is no “we”, on either side of the debate.

As for the concern that otherwise moderate Muslims will be driven to extremism as a result of this debate, I fully understand the point and do not discount the possiblity or even the likelihood of that happening. The question, as was the case during the so-called Muhammad cartoon controversy, is whether we, as a society, are willing to sacrifice free speech as the price to supposely avoid that risk. I, for one, believe that price is too high to pay.

236 elbruce  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:39:12pm

re: #233 ralphieboy

Which is my point as well. I don’t think it is such a great idea, but there are absolutely no legal grounds on which to oppose it.

Bringing this up again because not enough people are willing to say it: I think Park51 is a fabulous idea!

237 sliv_the_eli  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:40:26pm

re: #223 Fozzie Bear

We generally call those people lawyers and politicians.

/sorry, needed a break from the serious discourse.

238 sliv_the_eli  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:41:30pm

re: #224 ralphieboy

I’m a lawyer. I choose both sides.

239 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:43:34pm
240 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:49:34pm
241 sliv_the_eli  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:52:34pm

re: #226 elbruce

On that we will have to agree to disagree. If you read (or re-read, as the case may be) my comments above you will note that my concern is with the “prior restraint” effect of reflexively labelling anyone who opposes a particular orthodoxy as a racist, bigot or terrorist-supporting solder-killer. Each voice that silenced by such mindless personal attacks is one fewer voice in the cacophony of individual voices that collectively makes this country great. Anyway, that’s my opinion. You are free to hold a different view and, despite your fondness for would-be president Kerry, I won’t hold it against you.

242 simoom  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:53:00pm

re: #233 ralphieboy

Yes, it is a rather loose paraphrasing, he later refused to comment on the “wisdom” of building it there.

The first two quotes were from his interview in New Orleans a couple of days ago. The one about endorsement was in response to Brian Williams asking about his “wisdom” comment.

Which is my point as well. I don’t think it is such a great idea, but there are absolutely no legal grounds on which to oppose it.

Ah, but it isn’t his point, as here you are commenting on the wisdom of the project, where as Obama just doesn’t want to use the office of the President to endorse a specific religious project. Instead he makes the case for tolerance & respect on constitutional and moral grounds.

243 Reginald Perrin  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:57:42pm

re: #240 Spare O’Lake

Just saw your comment, fuckwad. Go to hell.

What is your problem?
Why are you not capable of debating like an adult?

244 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:04:35pm

re: #243 Reginald Perrin

What is your problem?
Why are you not capable of debating like an adult?

Not when I’ve been called a bigot and spat upon.
Nope.

245 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:07:13pm

re: #235 sliv_the_eli

Who is asking for free speech to be sacrificed?

246 sagehen  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:16:07pm

re: #239 Spare O’Lake

The three that come to mind are:
1. Financial exploiters;
2. Bigots; and,
3. Those who hope that the developer will voluntarily move the mosque in order to put a stop to the growing religious strife.

You left out the most obvious of all:

4. Those who need a new culture war issue mobilize the Republican base for the upcoming midterms (gay marriage just isn’t the draw it used to be)

247 sliv_the_eli  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:32:38pm

re: #245 Obdicut

Restriction on free speech is inherent in elevating the “risk” that speech causes moderates to become extremists to a level on, or even close to, a par with the right to virtually unfettered free speech. If we self-censor out of fear that our speech will be taken, rightly or wrongly, accurately or inaccurately, as a basis to recruit moderates to extremism then, as the cliche goes, the enemy has already won.

248 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:51:17pm

re: #247 sliv_the_eli

Restriction on free speech is inherent in elevating the “risk” that speech causes moderates to become extremists to a level on, or even close to, a par with the right to virtually unfettered free speech. If we self-censor out of fear that our speech will be taken, rightly or wrongly, accurately or inaccurately, as a basis to recruit moderates to extremism then, as the cliche goes, the enemy has already won.

Nobody is suggesting that we self-censor because of that. People are pointing that this is one consequence, and given that the speech is racist, bigoted, anti-American anyway, should already be self-censored on those grounds.

249 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 3:01:16pm

re: #246 sagehen

I consedered that to be a subset of #2 Bigots.

250 sliv_the_eli  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 3:04:13pm

re: #248 Obdicut

And therein is the fundamental difference between our viewpoints. I believe that the First Amendment fundamentally guarantees the right not to self-censor, so that people can make their own informed choices between good and evil, between viewpoints that are beneficial and those that are repugnant, and among all viewpoints between those extremes. I do not believe anyone has the right to tell anyone else to self-censor based upon the substance of the other person’s opinion. Even, and perhaps even especially, when I find the other person’s viewpoint to be repugnant, I insist on the other’s right to speak freely; the marketplace of ideas will sort out the proverbial wheat from the chaff.

251 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 3:05:18pm

re: #250 sliv_the_eli

Sure. It guarantees the right to not self-censor.

Why do you think I’m saying otherwise?

252 sliv_the_eli  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 3:28:03pm

re: #251 Obdicut

Because you did. Re-read the second sentence in the post to which I responded.

253 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 3:32:02pm

re: #252 sliv_the_eli

Because you did. Re-read the second sentence in the post to which I responded.

Show me where I did, then.

Are you honestly saying nobody can express a criticism of anything else that someone says, and say that they shouldn’t say something?

254 RogueOne  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 5:40:23am

re: #126 Aceofwhat?

To follow on my previous reply: are you against the mosque inside of the Pentagon?

There is no mosque inside the pentagon.

255 Eli_Phant  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 7:50:40am

Wait, so the Taliban won’t dig us anymore if we stop the mosque?

That changes everything, build the mosque and lets have Mullah Omar at the ribbon cutting ceremony.

256 sauceruney  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 9:24:09am

The so-called Americans who are against the mosque/cultural center are led by people who seem to want full-on war with Islam. They know this will cause radical religious elements on both sides to react predictably, pushing general public opinion into their court.

257 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 9:25:22am

re: #255 Eli_Phant

Wait, so the Taliban won’t dig us anymore if we stop the mosque?

That changes everything, build the mosque and lets have Mullah Omar at the ribbon cutting ceremony.

I’m sick and tired of you bigots ranting at my site. You registered just to post crap like that. Just go away.

258 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 9:26:59am

re: #234 Spare O’Lake

Look, fool, if there was no mosque in the project there would be no controversy, and your courts would zero in on that like a heat seeking missile.
As for my questioning the credentials and trustworthiness of Rauf, I stand by everything I have written. Every single word, and I don’t think Charles really loses a lot of sleep about my dissenting views on this, so why do you need to keep trying to make it otherwise?
It’s not a popularity contest here for me, in case you haven’t noticed, and I will never be silenced by puerile downdinging.
There is only one person on this site who can silence me.

I’m reaching the end of my patience with your determinedly ignorant crap too.

259 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 10:03:05am

re: #254 RogueOne

There is no mosque inside the pentagon.

Technically this is true. It’s a non-denominational chapel. But Muslims use it for prayer. Why aren’t you outraged that Muslims are saying their “Islamic supremacist victory prayers” in the Pentagon?

260 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:08:06pm

re: #258 Charles

I’m reaching the end of my patience with your determinedly ignorant crap too.

I just saw this.
I’m sorry you feel that way.


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