When Proven Liars Attack

Wingnuts • Views: 4,187

Video fraud perpetrator Andrew Breitbart’s getting frisky:

Ibrahim Hooper on LGF: ‘vicious, anti-Muslim hate site.’ Antonia Zerbisias described LGF: ‘virulently anti-Muslim/Arab website.’ @lizardoid

My reply:

@andrewbreitbart Hope you realize that many of the now-banned LGF commenters responsible for those remarks are now bloggers at your sites.

For example: Pamela Geller.

And one more point about Breitbart’s lame attempt at a smear: the accusations against LGF that he posted were all based on the comments at the site; not one of these critics ever found an actual post by me to back up their charges. And there’s a reason for that: because I don’t hate Muslims in general, and I never did. There was a time when I naively thought it was better not to moderate comments at all; I no longer believe this, and it’s been years since those kinds of comments were tolerated here.

But what we’re seeing at Andrew Breitbart’s sites, Pajamas Media, and nearly every other right wing blog is a level of hatred and vitriol directed at Muslims as a people that was never part of my writing — and it’s all on their front pages, proud and in your face.

Jump to bottom

105 comments
1 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:57:50am

the misleading edit master himself...
who's not smart enough to destroy the master tape,and so always gets caught...kind of like a very slow bond villain.

2 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:58:48am

re: #1 Boondock St. Bender

Heh. More like an Austin Powers villain.

3 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:59:26am

From the looks of his references, Breitbart has been collecting links about you for a long time. No wonder he's so heartbroken after finding out you aren't the kindred soul he took you for.

His is not the only heart bleeding all over Twitter, either.

4 Gus  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:59:28am
5 Stanghazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 11:59:45am

What's that saying? You are so over the target.

Kudos, really.

6 Gus  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:00:56pm
7 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:02:11pm

re: #6 Gus 802

the end of his credibility?didn't know he had much to begin with...

8 Gus  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:02:23pm
9 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:02:32pm

re: #4 Gus 802

I think you mean "self beclowning"... the common term for autobozolization, a serious mental malady on the right.

10 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:04:16pm

re: #9 Thanos

I think you mean "self beclowning"... the common term for autobozolization, a serious mental malady on the right.

It's like Tourette's but with a red nose...

11 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:06:04pm

re: #9 Thanos

autobozolization

LOL

12 Gus  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:06:10pm

re: #10 Thanos

It's like Tourette's but with a red nose...

I watched a recent interview of Andrew Breitbart last night and sure enough towards the end he completely falls apart. It's odd the way he does it too since much like Tourettes it comes in bursts.

13 researchok  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:07:55pm

It never ceases to amaze me that with so much potential, just how much of the internet is wasted or just abused.

I take no issue with discussion, dissent or disagreement- in fact. my own political evolution has been a result of just that.

That so much energy and effort is wasted on stupidity and vitriol is depressing. There is way more important stuff to talk about.

14 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:07:56pm

I really do not understand the hypocrisy involved in being a blatant neo-nazi sympathizer like Breitbart of Geller who calls for al manner of evil against all Muslims, and then trying to call someone else an Islamophobe.

I know I pissed people off with openly expressing my contempt for the repugnant riff-raff who are bringing this nation down, but get used to it. These people are scum. Their followers are morons and they get no love from me. None of them are special snow-flakes. In fact, they are slope-browed neo-fascist, nazi wannabes. That makes them the enemy of everything good about America.

They get no love.

They deserve no respect.

15 Interesting Times  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:08:53pm

re: #12 Gus 802

I watched a recent interview of Andrew Breitbart last night and sure enough towards the end he completely falls apart. It's odd the way he does it too since much like Tourettes it comes in bursts.

He may very well be the real deal (i.e. paranoid nut-case and beyond) as opposed to Glenn Beck, who just puts on an act for money.

16 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:10:24pm

re: #14 LudwigVanQuixote

The point of what Breitbart is doing is not to call me an Islamophobe. In his world, this is a GOOD thing.

What he's trying to do is discredit me among the people who are starting to pay attention to my stance against this anti-Muslim craziness.

It's a sleazy smear attempt, typical of Breitbart.

17 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:11:47pm

re: #14 LudwigVanQuixote

I really do not understand the hypocrisy involved in being a blatant neo-nazi sympathizer like Breitbart of Geller who calls for al manner of evil against all Muslims, and then trying to call someone else an Islamophobe.

They deserve no respect.

You are looking for logic in a place where none exists, my good man.

18 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:12:08pm

re: #6 Gus 802

The End of Andrew Breitbart's Credibility

[Video]

The problem is that as long as he has an outlet to an audience that's willing to listen to him, he has credibility to them, even if he has none with you or me.

19 ReamWorks SKG  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:12:37pm

If you judge a site by a few select comments, then the NY Times and the WSJ are also "viscous hate sites"

(BTW: I have No Idea why legitimate news sites allow user comments. It seems so inappropriate. I go to the NY Times to see what a professional reporter or opinion writer has to say. Not some random person posting anonymously. There are plenty of places on the Internet for that...including this one.)

20 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:13:07pm

re: #14 LudwigVanQuixote

I wasn't pissed off by you expressing contempt. I was annoyed at you asking why we allowed people to vote who didn't reach a certain educational level.

I have contempt for a lot of these people too. I have pity for some. I have pity for anyone who has not gotten the education in critical thinking that they need in order to sort through points of view, to filter fact from fiction. I feel pity for those who were raised believing that religious fervor overrides reality.

I'd like to help them. I do think education is the answer. And I do think the biggest problem this nation faces is that those who benefit from this lack of education transform that into votes for themselves, perpetuating the cycle.

I don't think that prescribing the right to vote, in any way, is the right way to move. I do think that campaign finance reform, including severe limits on corporate donations, are necessary. I do think we need to end the legal fiction that simply because it's convenient to treat a corporation as a person that it therefore gains the rights of a person.

The well-educated, smart, and wealthy people who are cynically promoting the lies are much more of an object of contempt to me than the people who are hoodwinked by them.

21 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:13:20pm

Please retweet this post, lizards.

22 OvertonWindolt  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:13:20pm

Breitbart is a political hitman. Most political ads and attacks are at least somewhat true. Brietbart has taken it to a new artform, just cold making crap up.

It is no wonder, with people like him at work, that our politics are so screwed. People operate on things that just are flat out untrue.

He is a disgusting specimen.

23 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:15:04pm

re: #22 OvertonWindolt

nice nic. and welcome to LGF...

24 elbruce  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:15:52pm

Nice comeback in the tweet there. Quite snarktacular.

re: #16 Charles

What he's trying to do is discredit me among the people who are starting to pay attention to my stance against this anti-Muslim craziness.

"I hate this guy! No wait, I love this guy, you should hate this guy. Are they still looking? OK, I hate this guy!"

25 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:16:17pm

re: #16 Charles

The point of what Breitbart is doing is not to call me an Islamophobe. In his world, this is a GOOD thing.

What he's trying to do is discredit me among the people who are starting to pay attention to my stance against this anti-Muslim craziness.

It's a sleazy smear attempt, typical of Breitbart.

I know that is his game. That is why I wrote a post about consider the source of the smear.

Charles, you have acted with nothing but honor in your actions with respect to the right wing loons.

Everyone knows that you were the first person considered conservative (even though, I think you were never really that particularly rightwing) in the blogosphere to see this cancer for what it was and get the hell away from it.

Since then you have been hammering these cretins day in day out.

That is the part of the record - for the last three or four years, that these loons would like to forget.

As to the moonbats, they are as always, just as delusional as the wingnuts.

I personally think it is high time we enshrine anti-iditoarian again here.

That is what this blog is best at. We take BS from no source or dogma.

26 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:19:59pm

re: #21 Charles

Is there a way to make the retween button automatically add the hash tags #tcot #tlot, etc.?

That'd save some time and memory on my part.

27 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:20:14pm

re: #25 LudwigVanQuixote

Did you see that it turned out you were right in suspecting Food Lion?

28 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:20:52pm

re: #26 Obdicut

ack i don't have a twitter acct.(actually never even been there.

29 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:21:25pm

re: #26 Obdicut

Is there a way to make the retween button automatically add the hash tags #tcot #tlot, etc.?

That'd save some time and memory on my part.

I do it from Tweetdeck, which does what you said there.

30 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:22:00pm

re: #29 wrenchwench

Ah, thanks. I basically just use twitter to repost stories from here-- and don't do it often enough.

31 darthstar  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:23:24pm

I had a feeling Breitbart was about to rear his ugly head again...he's been off the radar for a few weeks and is probably starving for attention.

32 Kronocide  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:23:59pm

Whats up with this: smear or not? I'm trying to fact check it and the author seems pretty fringekookular:

Exclusive: ‘Muslims-Only’ Enclave Thrives In PhiladelphiaYour text to link...

33 Interesting Times  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:24:22pm

re: #20 Obdicut

I don't think that prescribing the right to vote, in any way, is the right way to move. I do think that campaign finance reform, including severe limits on corporate donations, are necessary. I do think we need to end the legal fiction that simply because it's convenient to treat a corporation as a person that it therefore gains the rights of a person.

Absolutely! As it is right now, a corporation gets all of the RIGHTS of a person with utterly none of the RESPONSIBILITIES (can you arrest a corporation? Charge it with manslaughter? Put it in jail? No. It's next to impossible to even hold its executives accountable, thanks to "corporate personhood" providing an expanse of ass-covering that would rival a Cristo art project.)

The well-educated, smart, and wealthy people who are cynically promoting the lies are much more of an object of contempt to me than the people who are hoodwinked by them.

Exactly. Radovan Kradic was a brilliant man with a PhD. He was also a vile, horrid, genocidal piece of filth who used his knowledge and insight to conceive of degradation and torture beyond belief.

34 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:24:44pm

re: #30 Obdicut

Ah, thanks. I basically just use twitter to repost stories from here-- and don't do it often enough.

Without Tweetdeck, I think I'd find Twitter completely useless. I enjoy following a few twits who post interesting stuff.

35 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:25:07pm

re: #20 Obdicut

I wasn't pissed off by you expressing contempt. I was annoyed at you asking why we allowed people to vote who didn't reach a certain educational level.

OK, opinion duly noted. However, I very strongly believe that voting is a sacred responsibility and a serious act not to be undertaken by those who have no clue. I repeat Churchill and Plato with the simple fact that not all people are responsible enough to handle democracy, and that tyranny of the majority, and tyranny of the stupid was something that the Founding Fathers also understood.

I will put it really bluntly. Because of fools like that, we have no legislation on AGW. We can debate this up and down if you like, but as a direct result, they are voting for the collapse of America and the death of future generations. I do not see their sacred right to express their stupidity in the form of irresponsible and ignorant voting as the equal to or superior of the rights of future generations to have a civilization.

I have contempt for a lot of these people too. I have pity for some. I have pity for anyone who has not gotten the education in critical thinking that they need in order to sort through points of view, to filter fact from fiction. I feel pity for those who were raised believing that religious fervor overrides reality.

OK, I have pity for mental deficients also. That doesn't mean I think they should be allowed to operate heavy equipment or influence policy.


I'd like to help them. I do think education is the answer. And I do think the biggest problem this nation faces is that those who benefit from this lack of education transform that into votes for themselves, perpetuating the cycle.

Which is exactly what I was adressing last night. There were many nested if then statements in what I wrote about their being a fair and non discriminatory educations system availible to all for at least a generation before even contemplating restricting votes.

And the standards I set were pretty low anyway. Basic history, basic geography, basic math and basic literacy. Honestly, I would be all for making Americans take the same test we make new citizens take to become citizens before they can vote.

I don't think that prescribing the right to vote, in any way, is the right way to move.

I understand. I was not advocating it either. I was asked if I would be ok with it. Under certain circumstances, that insured fairness, I would be.

I do think that campaign finance reform, including severe limits on corporate donations, are necessary. I do think we need to end the legal fiction that simply because it's convenient to treat a corporation as a person that it therefore gains the rights of a person.

I agree with that 100%

The well-educated, smart, and wealthy people who are cynically promoting the lies are much more of an object of contempt to me than the people who are hoodwinked by them.

Well in the case of AGW those are the ones I feel should be tried for crimes against humanity, exactly like any other would be mass-murderer.

36 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:25:33pm

re: #27 wrenchwench

Did you see that it turned out you were right in suspecting Food Lion?

Thank you for telling me. I did not see that.

37 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:26:29pm

re: #32 BigPapa

Whats up with this: smear or not? I'm trying to fact check it and the author seems pretty fringekookular:

Exclusive: ‘Muslims-Only’ Enclave Thrives In PhiladelphiaYour text to link...

It's complete crap.

38 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:26:52pm

re: #35 LudwigVanQuixote

Well in the case of AGW those are the ones I feel should be tried for crimes against humanity, exactly like any other would be mass-murderer.

dude...

39 Alecto  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:30:55pm

You know, the longer I go on, the more I am utterly confused by the right wing. They want to claim this is a "Christian Nation" yet they openly embrace anti-Christian values - bigotry, hate, gossip, and bearing false witness.

Anyone who says this is a Christian nation while doing any of those things needs to seriously have a Biblical review of what it means to be a Christian. Jesus wasn't just blowing air about "Love they neighbor."

40 Kronocide  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:31:49pm

re: #37 Charles

It's complete crap.

It does stink. What bothers me is the immediate consensus and essentially 'retweeting' of the story by the Usual Suspect Brigade as a factual story.

I want to get some verification before I hammer this one.

41 cliffster  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:33:07pm
42 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:33:56pm

re: #41 cliffster

sex tapes

Oh... you!

(I confess, I snickered)

43 Stanghazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:35:10pm

SEATTLE – A man accused of punching a man wearing a turban at a Seattle convenience store has been charged with malicious harassment - a hate crime - and assault.

KOMO News reports 35-year-old Brock R. Stainbrook of Seattle yelled, "You're not even American, you're al-Qaida. Go back to your country."

A store employee broke up the Aug. 24 attack, and Stainbrook was arrested a few blocks away.

Read more: [Link: www.thenewstribune.com...]

44 OvertonWindolt  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:36:01pm

re: #23 Aceofwhat?

Thanks, glad to be here.

45 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:36:50pm

re: #35 LudwigVanQuixote

Voting isn't a responsibility. It's a right.

We don't have a pure democracy for a reason, definitely.

I do not see their sacred right to express their stupidity in the form of irresponsible and ignorant voting as the equal to or superior of the rights of future generations to have a civilization.

There is no way to take away that right that isn't a corruptive one.


OK, I have pity for mental deficients also. That doesn't mean I think they should be allowed to operate heavy equipment or influence policy.

I think that people who have been ill-educated should be able to vote, until such time as no-one is ill-educated.

And the standards I set were pretty low anyway. Basic history, basic geography, basic math and basic literacy.

It's not how low the standards are, it's how well the government and society has done at giving people a fair shot at achieving those standards. It hasn't. And even if it had, history teaches us that such tests can and will be used to disenfranchise legitimate voters.

I understand. I was not advocating it either. I was asked if I would be ok with it. Under certain circumstances, that insured fairness, I would be.

Since that refers to an impossible situation that cannot exist, I don't see it as a useful statement.

Well in the case of AGW those are the ones I feel should be tried for crimes against humanity, exactly like any other would be mass-murderer.

We don't actually try 'would be mass-murderers' for 'crimes against humanity'. We try them for attempted murder. And you need a stronger causal link.

You could use the same logic to say that someone who takes multiple flights a year, knowing the damage it does to the environment, should be prosecuted for attempted murder. How much damage does one have to do to the environment before they're a mass murderer? How long do you have at spread AGW denial before you're a mass murderer? Should Charles have been prosecuted for attempted murder back before he learned the truth about AGW?

I am fine with your passion. I am not fine with how many of your suggestions are utterly unworkable. We need to get from here to there.

I am not claiming I have any workable solutions.

46 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:38:07pm

re: #40 BigPapa

It does stink. What bothers me is the immediate consensus and essentially 'retweeting' of the story by the Usual Suspect Brigade as a factual story.

I want to get some verification before I hammer this one.

There were some financial questions, IIRC - this was one of the items in the list that got Alphonso Jackson booted.

But with regard to religion, is he any different than a Christian pastor trying to build stuff and walking around the streets trying to convert people? I can't see any difference.

47 Kragar  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:38:39pm

You guys do know about the Eva Mendes sex tape?

48 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:38:57pm

re: #38 Aceofwhat?

dude...

No Dude.

Check this out from Proceedings of the Royal Society.

A long-term association between global temperature and biodiversity, origination and extinction in the fossil record

[Link: rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org...]

We analysed the fossil record for the last 520 Myr against estimates of low latitude sea surface temperature for the same period. We found that global biodiversity (the richness of families and genera) is related to temperature and has been relatively low during warm ‘greenhouse’ phases, while during the same phases extinction and origination rates of taxonomic lineages have been relatively high. These findings are consistent for terrestrial and marine environments and are robust to a number of alternative assumptions and potential biases. Our results provide the first clear evidence that global climate may explain substantial variation in the fossil record in a simple and consistent manner. Our findings may have implications for extinction and biodiversity change under future climate warming

Which part of mass extinction is missing from your understanding? Do you remember that old saw about carbon sometimes lagging and all the squealing about Gore. It turns out that with better data, it didn't lag so much.

This is a respected paper that was published in 2007. The data has only become more firm since then.

Follow the citations to get to this paper:

[Link: www.sciencedirect.com...]

If habitat destruction or overexploitation of populations is severe, species loss can occur directly and abruptly. Yet the final descent to extinction is often driven by synergistic processes (amplifying feedbacks) that can be disconnected from the original cause of decline. We review recent observational, experimental and meta-analytic work which together show that owing to interacting and self-reinforcing processes, estimates of extinction risk for most species are more severe than previously recognised. As such, conservation actions which only target single-threat drivers risk being inadequate because of the cascading effects caused by unmanaged synergies. Future work should focus on how climate change will interact with and accelerate ongoing threats to biodiversity, such as habitat degradation, overexploitation and invasive species.

Now what happens to us in such a climate? What happens to America and our civilization?

Like I said, mass murderers. I am not going to equivocate for anyone.

49 Fart Knocker  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:39:18pm

re: #39 Alecto

You know, the longer I go on, the more I am utterly confused by the right wing. They want to claim this is a "Christian Nation" yet they openly embrace anti-Christian values - bigotry, hate, gossip, and bearing false witness.

Anyone who says this is a Christian nation while doing any of those things needs to seriously have a Biblical review of what it means to be a Christian. Jesus wasn't just blowing air about "Love they neighbor."


Don't you get it man1? Jesus never met a Muslim!
//

50 Gus  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:40:02pm
51 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:40:29pm

re: #50 Gus 802

Image: breitbartugly.jpg

Needs some drool.

52 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:40:39pm

ugh... getting ugly in the Atlantic GOES sees three storms...

Image: 478796main_20100831_Earl-Fiona-Danielle-GOES_full.jpg

53 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:41:02pm

re: #50 Gus 802

Is the yellow in his eyes photoshopped?

54 Gus  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:41:20pm

re: #53 Obdicut

Is the yellow in his eyes photoshopped?

Yep.

55 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:41:34pm

re: #51 JasonA

Needs some drool flying spittle.

FTFY

56 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:41:59pm

re: #54 Gus 802

Too bad, would have been a good explanation for his stupidity and insanity.

57 Stanghazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:42:54pm

re: #53 Obdicut

Is the yellow in his eyes photoshopped?

Hopefully. Otherwise he's in liver failure.

58 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:43:22pm

re: #57 Stanley Sea

Hopefully. Otherwise he's in liver failure.

It wouldn't exactly be a surprise if he was.

59 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:44:00pm

re: #57 Stanley Sea

Hopefully. Otherwise he's in liver failure.

I was kind of hoping he was-- not to wish him harm, but because it might be treatable, and then he might go, "Wait, I said what? Fuck, I'm so sorry. Let me go be a Trappist monk and shut the fuck up for the rest of my life in penance. Starting now."

60 TheQuis  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:44:05pm

In the immortal words of the Honorable Rodney King

"Can't we all just get along?"

61 Kragar  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:46:53pm

re: #60 TheQuis

In the immortal words of the Honorable Rodney King

"Can't we all just get along?"

My mom taught his kids.

62 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:47:13pm

re: #59 Obdicut

I was kind of hoping he was-- not to wish him harm, but because it might be treatable, and then he might go, "Wait, I said what? Fuck, I'm so sorry. Let me go be a Trappist monk and shut the fuck up for the rest of my life in penance. Starting now."

not to put too fine a point on it, but Trappist monasteries might be a dangerously tempting place for a man with a liver condition//

63 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:47:43pm

re: #62 Aceofwhat?

I admit that would be part of the punishment, and would make me a little glad. I try not to be vindictive, but I think a good penance takes pain.

64 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:47:52pm

re: #62 Aceofwhat?

pimf, A monastery. i needed the singular there....

65 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:48:15pm

re: #61 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

My mom taught his kids.

Did they get along with each other?

66 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:48:56pm

re: #62 Aceofwhat?

not to put too fine a point on it, but Trappist monasteries might be a dangerously tempting place for a man with a liver condition//

mmm.. Chimay.

67 elbruce  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:49:07pm

re: #43 Stanley Sea

A store employee broke up the Aug. 24 attack, and Stainbrook was arrested a few blocks away.

The upside to the obesity epidemic seems to be that it's getting easier to catch the wingnut terrorists when they try to hoof it.

68 Kragar  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:49:08pm

re: #65 wrenchwench

Did they get along with each other?

so so

69 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:51:09pm

re: #45 Obdicut

Voting isn't a responsibility. It's a right.

Which is abused by those who take it for granted.

We don't have a pure democracy for a reason, definitely.

Thank you for granting that.

There is no way to take away that right that isn't a corruptive one.

I am deeply aware of the terrible history associated with this. That is why I was so keen to say things like I would only contemplate it if there were universal, good education available to all fairly and that the test were administered fairly. You seem to miss the fact that I was saying that in principle I am not opposed to it, but that I clearly recognize we have no current way to implement it fairly.

I think that people who have been ill-educated should be able to vote, until such time as no-one is ill-educated.

Would you let them do surgery also?

It's not how low the standards are, it's how well the government and society has done at giving people a fair shot at achieving those standards. It hasn't. And even if it had, history teaches us that such tests can and will be used to disenfranchise legitimate voters.

For the 100th time we agree on this point completely.

Since that refers to an impossible situation that cannot exist, I don't see it as a useful statement.

I disagree. There is no way you can gerrymander algebra. People either can do it or not.

We don't actually try 'would be mass-murderers' for 'crimes against humanity'. We try them for attempted murder. And you need a stronger causal link.

Causal link between what and what? If you think that the evidence of human caused climate change isn't utterly rock solid, you have not been paying attention to the hundreds of actual journal papers I keep posting.

Further, mass murder is not the correct term because I really don't know the name of the crime of willfully bringing about extinction level events that will collapse human civilization and the deaths of billions, and even possibly cause the extinction of humanity itself.

You could use the same logic to say that someone who takes multiple flights a year, knowing the damage it does to the environment, should be prosecuted for attempted murder.

But I wouldn't and didn't. I rather narroly resticted my comments to the
cynical bastards manipulating the public against the science and using their political power to prevent action.

How much damage does one have to do to the environment before they're a mass murderer? How long do you have at spread AGW denial before you're a mass murderer? Should Charles have been prosecuted for attempted murder back before he learned the truth about AGW?

Spare me that crap Obdi. I expect better arguments from you.

Charles is not someone in the employ of fossil fuels companies, in a position of power, and personally trying to keep the people ignorant. That was the original context.

70 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:52:04pm

re: #52 Thanos

The only one of those three that might be problematic for the US is Earl, which is a CAT 4 and might take a glancing shot off the NC Coast and maybe New England by Friday... We're entering the height of hurricane season, when September is the busiest month for hurricanes (more than August and October combined). The most cyclonic systems active at one time in the Atlantic basin was 5 (no more than 2 were hurricanes at one time).

Lots of hurricane related data here (including the aforementioned trivia).

71 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:53:43pm

re: #48 LudwigVanQuixote

No Dude.

Check this out from Proceedings of the Royal Society.

A long-term association between global temperature and biodiversity, origination and extinction in the fossil record

[Link: rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org...]

Follow the citations to get to this paper:

[Link: www.sciencedirect.com...]

Now what happens to us in such a climate? What happens to America and our civilization?

Like I said, mass murderers. I am not going to equivocate for anyone.

Cool link. I'm saving it, thanks.

Everything in that paper can be true...and yet your reaction is to levy charges of 'mass murderers' left and right. You might be the worst evangelist i've ever met!

I am not complaining because i expect to disagree with anything in the papers you just posted. I am complaining because if I wanted to prevent deniers from softening their stance against AGW, i would employ your exact tactics. We are trying to persuade and convert here.

It's like attempting to share one's faith with a potentially open-minded soul and then *BAM*, in comes the wild-eyed, fire-and-brimstone guy talking about how we're all sinners. Tact, dude. We need tact.

72 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:54:15pm

re: #50 Gus 802

Image: breitbartugly.jpg

Is that a blond Hitler mustache or is it snot?

73 TheQuis  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:54:23pm

re: #61 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

That's funny and scary... The king had offspring. If they have a police video will it be called Rodney King 2.0

74 Stanghazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:55:49pm

re: #72 Alouette

Is that a blond Hitler mustache or is it snot?

Coke residue. (sorry!)

75 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:57:06pm

re: #70 lawhawk

The only one of those three that might be problematic for the US is Earl, which is a CAT 4 and might take a glancing shot off the NC Coast and maybe New England by Friday... We're entering the height of hurricane season, when September is the busiest month for hurricanes (more than August and October combined). The most cyclonic systems active at one time in the Atlantic basin was 5 (no more than 2 were hurricanes at one time).

Lots of hurricane related data here (including the aforementioned trivia).

Mother Nature likes playing skittles in the Atlantic in September.

76 Gus  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:58:22pm

re: #72 Alouette

Is that a blond Hitler mustache or is it snot?

Coke

77 Gus  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 12:59:05pm
78 darthstar  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:00:38pm

re: #77 Gus 802

Image: breitbartugly2.jpg

I liked the photoshopped picture better.

79 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:01:25pm

Wow, some of the Ritz Taliban are not liking Beckapalooza at all. There's trouble in the end of times with the new sheriff.

80 Kragar  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:01:54pm

Joh, you're really not helping;

John Cusack Calls for 'Satanic Death' of Fox News, GOP Leaders

Actor John Cusack went on a caustic Twitter rampage Sunday evening, attacking former House Majority Leader Dick Armey, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich and Fox News.

“I AM FOR A SATANIC DEATH CULT CENTER AT FOX NEWS HQ AND OUTSIDE THE OFFICES ORDICK ARMEYAND NEWT GINGRICH-and all the GOP WELFARE FREAKS,” Cusack tweeted.

Cusack has long been outspoken about politics. He supported Barack Obama in the 2008 presidential election and has contributed to The Huffington Post, but this is the first known time he has stooped to the level of making threats.

And while the U.S. Constitution protects Cusack's right to speak his mind, some critics say he should be more careful about what he says, since he has more than 200,000 Twitter followers.

“His provocative tweets could easily incite a rabid fan to commit violent acts against Fox News Headquarters and others he names," said Dr. Carole Lieberman, a Beverly Hills-based psychiatrist and author of "Coping With Terrorism: Dreams Interrupted."

Thats right, the cult leader John Cussack and his militant cult of extremist groupies could already be on their way to destroy Fox news.

Its the End Times.

/

81 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:02:54pm

re: #69 LudwigVanQuixote

Sure. The right is abused. The fifth amendment is abused a lot too. So is the first.

You seem to miss the fact that I was saying that in principle I am not opposed to it, but that I clearly recognize we have no current way to implement it fairly.

Why do you say I miss that, when it was something I criticized about it? It is an impossible goal to implement this fairly. Therefore, it's as silly as saying that people should only be allowed to vote who have shown they vote for the best candidates.

Unworkable might as well not exist.

I disagree. There is no way you can gerrymander algebra. People either can do it or not.

Creating a perfect educational system is impossible. At least until we invent true AI.

But I wouldn't and didn't. I rather narroly resticted my comments to the cynical bastards manipulating the public against the science and using their political power to prevent action.

That's what I was pointing out. The same logic applies to people who know that flying is bad for the environment but do it anyway. And how does one prove cynicism, in a court of law?

Spare me that crap Obdi. I expect better arguments from you.

Spare me the crap of telling me to spare the crap. If you don't like the argument, point out a weakness in it instead of asserting one.


Charles is not someone in the employ of fossil fuels companies, in a position of power, and personally trying to keep the people ignorant. That was the original context.

Charles was a blogger, making posts, that affected people. What is your criteria for not including him, but including others? Money received? That he was honestly deceived?

I would hate to think that you're simply trying to Overton this; I'm giving you the respect of treating this as your real opinion. I'm pointing out that, in the real world, such a thing would be impossible, depending on proofs of things known only inside people's heads-- cynicism. If you want to go after those who profit, I think the easiest way is to make it not profit, not to attempt to take their lives.

I am all for holding people and groups accountable, to the tune of very large amounts of money, punishingly large amounts of money, for deceptive ad campaigns, for libel and smears against scientists. Precedent for this exists, in a large number of different areas, from the criminal to the civil.

But when you start the logical path to treating it as murder, you accrue too many complexities too quickly. There would be a thousand points of law to settle, and no time to do it in.

82 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:03:02pm

re: #71 Aceofwhat?

Cool link. I'm saving it, thanks.

You are very welcome.

It's like attempting to share one's faith with a potentially open-minded soul and then *BAM*, in comes the wild-eyed, fire-and-brimstone guy talking about how we're all sinners.

Stop right there. This has nothing to do with faith and everything to do with data, hard facts and solid mathematics. In much the same way you would not question stopping someone from putting a gun in their mouth - because of the catastrophic and well understood consequences of doing so, you would be all for stopping this with even greater fervor, if you really let the facts penetrate. The reality is vastly worse than you imagine.

Tact, dude. We need tact.

I am being tactful. There is no human administered punishment that could possibly balance out the crimes involved.

As to my success or not in getting the information to people, I have found that the will not to believe is stronger than tact. This is a case where occasionally bashing people with the facts and saying yes, moron, you are being a moron, and yes, this is your fault, is really the only way. Soft speaking and equivocation only allows the denier propagandists the room to muddy the issue and raise false questions.

83 Stanghazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:03:19pm

re: #80 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Joh, you're really not helping;

John Cusack Calls for 'Satanic Death' of Fox News, GOP Leaders

Thats right, the cult leader John Cussack and his militant cult of extremist groupies could already be on their way to destroy Fox news.

Its the End Times.

/

Oh Fox, he wants a Satanic Death Cult Center! Not your satanic death (via) cult!!

84 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:04:24pm

re: #80 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

John Cusak has rabid fans? That right there is troubling. Great actor, not exactly Brad Pitt in the charisma department.

85 Gus  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:04:28pm

re: #78 darthstar

I liked the photoshopped picture better.

Yeah, I'm slowly morphing him into an alien.

Image: breitbartugly3.jpg

/

86 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:06:00pm

re: #80 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

John has to worry about newspaper boys trying to collect their $2.

Well, that and assorted hitmen.

87 Kragar  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:07:07pm

re: #84 Jeff In Ohio

John Cusak has rabid fans? That right there is troubling. Great actor, not exactly Brad Pitt in the charisma department.

Really, its John Cusack. Whats he gonna do really? Stand outside your house with a boombox over his head?

88 prairiefire  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:07:17pm

re: #22 OvertonWindolt

Fantastic nic, welcome.

89 Stanghazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:09:08pm

re: #79 Jeff In Ohio

Wow, some of the Ritz Taliban are not liking Beckapalooza at all. There's trouble in the end of times with the new sheriff.

Elaborate...

90 Stanghazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:10:34pm

re: #89 Stanley Sea

Elaborate...

Ooh, just saw your page post.

91 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:14:07pm

re: #82 LudwigVanQuixote

As to my success or not in getting the information to people, I have found that the will not to believe is stronger than tact. This is a case where occasionally bashing people with the facts and saying yes, moron, you are being a moron, and yes, this is your fault, is really the only way. Soft speaking and equivocation only allows the denier propagandists the room to muddy the issue and raise false questions.

Bashing someone with a fact ≠ advocating for mass murderer charges to be levied left and right. Failure to separate the facts from what you believe the proper moral consequences ought to be endears you to very few, and I am speaking as someone who wishes us all success in overcoming AGW denial.

92 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:14:50pm

re: #84 Jeff In Ohio

John Cusak has rabid fans? That right there is troubling. Great actor, not exactly Brad Pitt in the charisma department.

I'm not a rabid fan, but dude...Grosse Pointe Blank...need I say more?

93 BongCrodny  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:17:13pm

re: #80 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

John Cusack Calls for 'Satanic Death' of Fox News, GOP Leaders

/


If he could pull that one off, I might even go to one of his movies.

94 gehazi  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:18:37pm

re: #92 Aceofwhat?

I'm not a rabid fan, but dude...Grosse Pointe Blank...need I say more?

And Being John Malkovich!

95 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:19:19pm

re: #81 Obdicut

Fine, let's drop the whole voting thing for now. I do not know how to be more clear, yet you seem to be taking what I am saying out of any context. There is no AI needed. There is no perfect education system needed. There is only a basic level of education needed that is actually quite attainable by all who have normal mental capabilities.

There is no reason we could not fund a proper school system that saw to t that children learned basic history, mathematics, literacy and civics.

Essentially everyone here managed that.

I am not asking for everyone to be a genius. I am saying that casting a meaningful vote means voting meaningfully and that it is impossible to do so if you are the sort of twit who thinks seeing Russia from the front porch constitutes knowledge of Russia.

OK, I figure those statements are pretty unassailable.

As to the whole is it mass murder.

Fine let me lay out the crime, and then you can quibble with the label. Negligent genocide sounds good to me also.

In fact, I shall use willfully negligent genocide.

We have people in positions of authority who are betraying the public trust by willfully leading people to their destruction and the collapse of our civilization.

What do you call that? It is certainly more than malfeasance.

96 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:21:04pm

re: #91 Aceofwhat?

Bashing someone with a fact ≠ advocating for mass murderer charges to be levied left and right. Failure to separate the facts from what you believe the proper moral consequences ought to be endears you to very few, and I am speaking as someone who wishes us all success in overcoming AGW denial.

There is no levying charges left and right.

I am specifically pointing at people like the various GOP leaders who openly deny AGW and do everything in their power to prevent any meaningful action. I am specifically pointing at people like the Heritage Foundation for their evil propaganda.

How about you stick to what I say and not make things up?

97 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:27:24pm

re: #95 LudwigVanQuixote

Fine, let's drop the whole voting thing for now. I do not know how to be more clear, yet you seem to be taking what I am saying out of any context. There is no AI needed. There is no perfect education system needed. There is only a basic level of education needed that is actually quite attainable by all who have normal mental capabilities.

It's making sure this uniformly exists and is uniformly accessible that is impossible. Please remember that this is my field.

It is a wonderful goal. It is what we should strive for. But it will never be perfect, and removing the right to vote from someone for something that may not be their fault at all is not right, and I will never think it is right.

The service requirement I feel is a much better idea, especially since you can combine education with it.

We have people in positions of authority who are betraying the public trust by willfully leading people to their destruction and the collapse of our civilization.

What do you call that? It is certainly more than malfeasance.

Don't get me wrong; I think the cynical bastards are mass murderers, just as I feel that, collectively, those fomenting hatred towards Muslims bear the responsibility for anything that happens to US Muslims. I am only talking about what is actually possible and achievable. I want the anti-AGW message to stop. We can't do that through prosecutions for 'negligent genocide'. We can do that, if we are able to educate the public enough to counter their bullshit, by prosecuting them for libel, slander, and fraud, and getting civil suits against them.

I am not looking for justice. I am looking for solutions. That may be part of the difference.

98 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 1:58:17pm

Wasn't there something about CAIR being an unindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land (Hamas) funding case?
Check out this DOJ 2010 confirmatory letter if you've forgotten.
[Link: www.investigativeproject.org...]

99 Coracle  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:29:22pm

re: #98 Spare O'Lake

Wasn't there something about CAIR being an unindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land (Hamas) funding case?
Check out this DOJ 2010 confirmatory letter if you've forgotten.
[Link: www.investigativeproject.org...]

You've trawled on this before just a few threads down.
Indicted doesn't mean convicted (innocent until proven and all that).
Unindicted doesn't mean, well, indicted.

"Unindicted co-conspiritor" sounds pretty much exactly like "I heard they spoke with bad bad people."

I'm neither fan nor foe of CAIR. But you're clearly fishing for stink.

100 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:56:17pm

re: #99 Coracle

You've trawled on this before just a few threads down.
Indicted doesn't mean convicted (innocent until proven and all that).
Unindicted doesn't mean, well, indicted.

"Unindicted co-conspiritor" sounds pretty much exactly like "I heard they spoke with bad bad people."

I'm neither fan nor foe of CAIR. But you're clearly fishing for stink.

The depth of your craven denial is breathtaking.
Maybe they have since reformed, I doubt it, but at the time CAIR and their leaders were horrible folks, and LGF correctly called it.
This in no way excuses any bigotry which may have been expressed by posters at the time (and not by the blog owner).

101 prairiefire  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 5:06:55pm

Unindicted co-conspirator sounds like Dick Cheney.

102 Coracle  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 5:09:44pm

re: #100 Spare O'Lake

The depth of your craven denial is breathtaking.
Maybe they have since reformed, I doubt it, but at the time CAIR and their leaders were horrible folks, and LGF correctly called it.
This in no way excuses any bigotry which may have been expressed by posters at the time (and not by the blog owner).

Craven denial of what, exactly? I won't put words in your mouth. You tell me exactly what you think I'm denying. You presented zero facts other than a document talking about "unidicted co-conspiritors" which means exactly what I said it means. I certainly don't deny that someone names CAIR as "unidicted co-conspiritors". But you can't deny that phrase is legally meaningless. If there was evidence to indict them, then they should have been indicted. If not, then plastering them with terms like this is weak tea indeed.

103 ClaudeMonet  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:33:04am

I have noticed that whenever anyone suggests passing an educational test as a precondition to voting, they are assuming that THEY can pass it. Perhaps THEY want to be the ones who create it, setting the bar exactly (and purely coincidentally) just below the level of themselves and their close friends and associates.

I have also noticed that many of the most intelligent people I've met have no clue as to how the real world works or even should work, and that many people who would be considered "simple" or "stupid" have a fine sense of how the body politic should operate.

My point is that "intelligence" is no guarantee of superior use of the franchise.

104 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:25:57am

CAIR stinks from the head down
[Link: www.investigativeproject.org...]

105 Coracle  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 7:08:14am

Interesting, Spare. I can't say IPT is particularly trustworthy though, either. Let's take a look at their August 23 piece on Rauf:

IPT takes issue with Rauf's claim in a 2005 speech of the number sanction-caused deaths, citing a different estimate, but not noting that even the number they use is an order of magnitude more than US deaths caused by the conflict.

IPT - and far too many people - take words that explain and understand the mindset and motivation of terrorists as justifying them. The very quote they interpret as "This is justifying acts of terrorism" says the words "Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians, that does not solve the problem..."

IPT claims that Rauf tries to deny suicide bombings are motivated by "Islamic Religious beliefs" - a broad slam against all of Islam, as opposed to the radicalized, militant splinters of it, when the quote they take issue with doesn't address islamic religious beliefs at all one way or the other (that was not the question asked), but discusses the easily manipulable mindset of one of the tools of terrorism - the suicide bomber - and how the conditions creating those tools have been exploited in the Muslim world.

IPT claims that a one state solution in Israel, which Rauf seems to support is a "euphemism for the destruction of Israel", countering is repeated statements supporting Israel's right to exist. Rational people can disagree about 1 vs. 2 states without being labeled anti-Israel, which Rauf is demonstrably not.

IPT concludes with interpreting another quote explaining terrorism as justifying it.

IPT is not a source I would go to for reliable information on Islamic figures and organizations.


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