NY Teenagers Charged with Shooting at Mosque, Trying to Run Over Worshippers

US News • Views: 4,286

Another hate crime that Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer and the anti-Muslim Bigot Brigade can claim they have nothing to do with:Teenagers Charged in Harassment at Mosque.

A group of teenagers in western New York has been accused of harassing members of a mosque by yelling obscenities and insults during evening prayers for Ramadan, sideswiping a worshiper with a vehicle and firing a shotgun outside, the authorities said Tuesday.

The teenagers were cornered by members of the mosque, who held them for the police. They were charged with disrupting a religious service, a misdemeanor.

The obscenities episode occurred Monday and the shooting last Friday, both outside the World Sufi Foundation mosque in Carlton, N.Y., the authorities said. They said a 17-year-old fired the shotgun; no one was hit.

“We have had occasions in the past,” said Joseph V. Cardone, the district attorney in Orleans County, “and it seems every three or four years we have some kids drive by the mosque and make comments and that sort of thing. We’ve had minor incidents, but nothing of this magnitude in the past.”

More details at TPM: Teens Harass Muslims In Upstate New York.

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468 comments
1 darthstar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:02:46pm

Isolated incident #23.

2 enoughalready  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:03:25pm

Left wingers out to discredit the legitimate anti-Mosque Of Giga-Death movement.
It has to be. Anything else would be inconcievable

3 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:04:30pm

Firing a shotgun into the air is a legitimate excercise of First and Second Amendment rights.

/

4 Big Steve  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:05:35pm

Since I have a 17 year old human male living under my roof right now I can state with certainty that age/gender is nearly ubiquitously populated with noodle heads.

5 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:08:18pm

Firing a shotgun and trying to run people over takes this well beyond the realm of a teenage prank.

6 cliffster  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:08:30pm

re: #4 Big Steve

I've read studies showing that teenagers are still forming pathways in the brain, especially the ones that give you restraint. So people under 20 or 21 do so much crazy stuff because they are, literally, crazy.

7 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:09:34pm

re: #1 darthstar

Isolated incident #23.

Heh... in the NYT article on the incident, the local DA say that a group of teens has gone by this particular mosque and made comments every couple of years.

The obscenities episode occurred Monday and the shooting last Friday, both outside the World Sufi Foundation mosque in Carlton, N.Y., the authorities said. They said a 17-year-old fired the shotgun; no one was hit.

“We have had occasions in the past,” said Joseph V. Cardone, the district attorney in Orleans County, “and it seems every three or four years we have some kids drive by the mosque and make comments and that sort of thing. We’ve had minor incidents, but nothing of this magnitude in the past."

8 allegro  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:09:55pm

Crazy stuff is mooning the toll booth operator. This is violent. Not the same thing.

9 Kragar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:10:06pm

re: #5 Charles

Firing a shotgun and trying to run people over takes this well beyond the realm of a teenage prank.

Obviously we was provoked by the Muslims going with their lives like they were normal people. The nerve of them.

/

10 darthstar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:11:21pm

re: #5 Charles

Firing a shotgun and trying to run people over takes this well beyond the realm of a teenage prank.

But Charles, they're juuussst kids...

11 cliffster  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:12:09pm

re: #8 allegro

Crazy stuff is mooning the toll booth operator. This is violent. Not the same thing.

This is pretty crazy, too.

And she was definitely old enough to know better.

12 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:14:18pm

Oh great. Now there's apparently a libertarian loon who's writing articles about repealing the Civil Rights Act -- and he has the same name as me.

13 Big Steve  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:15:04pm

I can look back at a number of what I called "pranks" when I was 17 that had we been caught would have brought shame and the cops to my parent's house. None involved firearms but near as serious.

14 webevintage  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:15:08pm

re: #12 Charles

Oh great. Now there's apparently a libertarian loon who's writing articles about repealing the Civil Rights Act -- and he has the same name as me.

well that sucks....

15 BishopX  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:15:28pm

re: #12 Charles

Quick! Sue him for trademark infringement!
/

16 darthstar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:16:11pm

The kid on the bottom left has this "oh shit, don't tell my mom" look on his face.

Image: mugs-collage-cropped-proto-custom_2.jpg

17 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:16:16pm

re: #12 Charles

Oh great. Now there's apparently a libertarian loon who's writing articles about repealing the Civil Rights Act -- and he has the same name as me.

Shazbot!

18 RadicalModerate  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:17:52pm
19 deranged cat  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:20:44pm

re: #12 Charles

there needs to be an investigative report on right wing media tactics. they've been quite busy lately..

20 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:20:54pm

re: #12 Charles

Oh great. Now there's apparently a libertarian loon who's writing articles about repealing the Civil Rights Act -- and he has the same name as me.

Oh, hell.

21 webevintage  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:20:59pm

re: #18 RadicalModerate

Good grief.

This one will NOT end well.


White Nationalist Group To Protest 'Machete' Movie With Machetes This Weekend

Good job on giving the movie more publicity BANA.
Morons.

22 cliffster  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:21:34pm

re: #18 RadicalModerate

Yeoman says "we feel that bringing machetes is important symbolism," adding in the press release that the members will come "armed with flyers as well."

armed with flyers, machetes, and a little bit of love.

23 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:22:36pm

Not sure if this has been posted yet...

Noted anti-global-warming scientist reverses course

With scientific data piling up showing that the world has reached its hottest-ever point in recorded history, global-warming skeptics are facing a high-profile defection from their ranks. Bjorn Lomborg, author of the influential tract "The Skeptical Environmentalist," has reversed course on the urgency of global warming, and is now calling for action on "a challenge humanity must confront."

24 webevintage  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:23:22pm

re: #18 RadicalModerate

"We feel that this is an explicit threat to white folks," Yeoman wrote on the far-right blog Occidental Dissent, "and that it is necessary to send a message to moviegoers and the producers of this film that threatening people because they happen to be white is unacceptable."

When did white people become so damn whiny?

25 Kragar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:23:45pm

In other news,

I took my Security + certification exam today.

Got 92%.

I am now a fully certified IT Security technician.

26 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:25:08pm

re: #25 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

In other news,

I took my Security + certification exam today.

Got 92%.

I am now a fully certified IT Security technician.

That includes firewalls doesn't it? Congrads!

27 TedStriker  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:25:47pm

re: #16 darthstar

The kid on the bottom left has this "oh shit, don't tell my mom" look on his face.

Image: mugs-collage-cropped-proto-custom_2.jpg

The kid in the bottom left looks like he just came off a crying jag, while the rest of them look like they're trying to put on their best "hard and tough" looks...little shits, the lot of them.

They need to spend some time in jail over this...

28 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:25:54pm

re: #25 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

In other news,

I took my Security + certification exam today.

Got 92%.

I am now a fully certified IT Security technician.

Well done.

29 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:26:57pm

I'm sure they learned all of this from their liberal teachers in school (it's a D+15 congressional district) and not from their parents at home. No sir...

/

30 allegro  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:27:03pm

re: #24 webevintage

When did white people become so damn whiny?

I've been trying to figure that one out, too. What the heck are they weirding out about? Is it just a case of machete envy? An excuse to go out with "mine is bigger!"?

31 Four More Tears  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:27:16pm

re: #24 webevintage

When did white people become so damn whiny?

Some of us seriously need to grow a pair.

32 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:27:31pm

re: #30 allegro

I've been trying to figure that one out, too. What the heck are they weirding out about? Is it just a case of machete envy? An excuse to go out with "mine is bigger!"?

"You call that a knife???"

33 Kragar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:27:47pm

re: #26 HoosierHoops

That includes firewalls doesn't it? Congrads!

Firewalls, Encryption, Physical Security, Change management, Disaster Recovery, backup, antivirus, security policies and several other disciplines.

34 allegro  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:28:04pm

re: #32 Varek Raith

Yeah, that!

35 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:29:38pm

re: #18 RadicalModerate

Personally I can't wait to see it. I remember the trailer's in the grindhouse flicks from a while back and was hoping they'd make it into a movie.

36 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:29:41pm

re: #12 Charles

Oh great. Now there's apparently a libertarian loon who's writing articles about repealing the Civil Rights Act -- and he has the same name as me.

When in the hell did the notions of:

A. Repealing the Civil Rights Act and all hate crimes laws...
B. Undoing the SCOTUS decision that affirmed a right to privacy and a right to birth control...
C. Getting rid of public schools altogether...
D. Canning the 17th Amendment...
E. Giving the President unlimited authority to disregard any and all laws or restraints "in the interests of national security"
F. Detaining both foreign and American citizens seized hundreds or even thousands of miles from any battlefield without any review or hearing for years on the say-so of the President...
G. Subjecting detainees to procedures like radical hypothermia, controlled drowning, slapping/kicking/punching, having them bitten and mauled by guard dogs, strapado and even having them killed during interrogation...

...come to be "conservative"???

I have been wondering about this for some time now.

37 darthstar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:30:57pm

re: #27 talon_262

The kid in the bottom left looks like he just came off a crying jag, while the rest of them look like they're trying to put on their best "hard and tough" looks...little shits, the lot of them.

They need to spend some time in jail over this...

About that college scholarship...

38 darthstar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:32:19pm

re: #35 Dreggas

Personally I can't wait to see it. I remember the trailer's in the grindhouse flicks from a while back and was hoping they'd make it into a movie.

And it has Cheech Marin in it...as a priest. It looks like a fun movie.

39 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:32:45pm

re: #36 celticdragon

When in the hell did the notions of:

A. Repealing the Civil Rights Act and all hate crimes laws...
B. Undoing the SCOTUS decision that affirmed a right to privacy and a right to birth control...
C. Getting rid of public schools altogether...
D. Canning the 17th Amendment...
E. Giving the President unlimited authority to disregard any and all laws or restraints "in the interests of national security"
F. Detaining both foreign and American citizens seized hundreds or even thousands of miles from any battlefield without any review or hearing for years on the say-so of the President...
G. Subjecting detainees to procedures like radical hypothermia, controlled drowning, slapping/kicking/punching, having them bitten and mauled by guard dogs, strapado and even having them killed during interrogation...

...come to be "conservative"???

I have been wondering about this for some time now.

I've been wondering the same thing.

40 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:33:09pm

re: #23 rwdflynavy

While it's really cool he's reversed course, I wish people would stop calling him a scientist. He's not.

41 A Sockpuppet's Sockpuppet  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:34:34pm

re: #3 ralphieboy

Firing a shotgun into the air is a legitimate excercise of First and Second Amendment rights.

/

They were trying to bring down the flying pigs.

Pigs on the wing are good eatin'.

42 deranged cat  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:35:01pm

re: #36 celticdragon

When in the hell did the notions of:

A. Repealing the Civil Rights Act and all hate crimes laws...
B. Undoing the SCOTUS decision that affirmed a right to privacy and a right to birth control...
C. Getting rid of public schools altogether...
D. Canning the 17th Amendment...
E. Giving the President unlimited authority to disregard any and all laws or restraints "in the interests of national security"
F. Detaining both foreign and American citizens seized hundreds or even thousands of miles from any battlefield without any review or hearing for years on the say-so of the President...
G. Subjecting detainees to procedures like radical hypothermia, controlled drowning, slapping/kicking/punching, having them bitten and mauled by guard dogs, strapado and even having them killed during interrogation...

...come to be "conservative"???

I have been wondering about this for some time now.

we need more lists like this. i remember Huffpo came up with one that had hundreds of links.. i need to find that one again.

43 cajinmonk  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:35:31pm

This blog used to post desecrations of synagogues and churches. Did such attacks end now that the headchoppers are crying foul?

44 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:36:22pm

re: #43 cajinmonk

What?
No clue what you've been reading, but it wasn't this blog.

45 darthstar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:36:39pm

re: #41 b_sharp

They were trying to bring down the flying pigs.

Pigs on the wing are good eatin'.

Must have been subterranean flying pigs, as the article says they fired the gun into the ground as a warning...because the Muslims exiting the mosque scared them. The police were like, "You idiots! You drove there with a gun! You can't blame the people you were harassing for your actions!" Finally.

46 A Sockpuppet's Sockpuppet  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:36:51pm

re: #11 cliffster

This is pretty crazy, too.

And she was definitely old enough to know better.

What was she a doctor of, stupidity?

Everyone know you use a basement window to break into a house.

47 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:37:01pm

re: #43 cajinmonk

All in the know live in fear of Madame LeFarge's knitting!

/

48 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:37:07pm

re: #41 b_sharp

They were trying to bring down the flying pigs.

Pigs on the wing are good eatin'.

Upding for cool Pink Floyd joke...

49 darthstar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:37:51pm

re: #43 cajinmonk

Hello, Sarah.

50 webevintage  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:38:13pm

re: #43 cajinmonk

huh?

51 TedStriker  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:38:16pm

re: #43 cajinmonk

Ths blg sd t pst dscrtns f synggs nd chrchs. Dd sch ttcks nd nw tht th hdchpprs r cryng fl?

I wondered when the next sock/troll would slink out...

52 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:38:23pm

re: #43 cajinmonk

This blog used to post desecrations of synagogues and churches. Did such attacks end now that the headchoppers are crying foul?

Another sleeper making a strange, twitchy comment?

53 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:38:25pm

re: #43 cajinmonk We still get upset by those desecrations as well, Troll.

54 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:38:52pm

re: #43 cajinmonk

Facepalm.

55 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:38:55pm

It's like the dark side of the 1960s has made a return. The people that are a part of the anti-Muslim hysteria should be ashamed of themselves.

56 Kragar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:39:17pm

re: #43 cajinmonk

1) Those attacks were just as wrong
2) Name a recent one

57 darthstar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:39:44pm

re: #54 Varek Raith

Facepalm.

Faithpalm...it's a term I thought of yesterday in response to other wingnut religious stupidity.

58 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:39:48pm

re: #43 cajinmonk

It takes more than 2 years and 7 posts to have any Street cred here..
Try again..That was effen weak

59 Velvet Elvis  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:39:59pm

We all know how violent the sufi can be. They might get mad and meditate at you.

60 Kragar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:40:00pm

I'd just like to point out, he is not a 2004 alumni.

61 Neutral President  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:40:38pm

re: #43 cajinmonk

62 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:40:46pm

re: #59 Conservative Moonbat

We all know how violent the sufi can be. They might get mad and meditate at you.

We Sith can make people burst into flames by just looking at them.

63 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:41:09pm

re: #43 cajinmonk

Ths blg sd t pst dscrtns f synggs nd chrchs. Dd sch ttcks nd nw tht th hdchpprs r cryng fl?

That doesn't make any sense. You might want to try vitamin B supplements.

64 Kragar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:41:30pm

re: #62 Varek Raith

We Sith can make people burst into flames by just looking at them.

Back on the neuro-rack Heretic!

65 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:42:13pm

re: #64 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Back on the neuro-rack Heretic!

Most relaxing, that.

66 TedStriker  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:42:18pm

re: #60 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'd just like to point out, he is not a 2004 alumni.

True, but it's probably a sock of someone from the Class of 2004.

67 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:42:21pm

re: #63 Gus 802

That doesn't make any sense. You might want to try vitamin B supplements.

Vitamin E might be more appropriate... ;P

68 webevintage  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:42:22pm

re: #45 darthstar

Must have been subterranean flying pigs, as the article says they fired the gun into the ground as a warning...because the Muslims exiting the mosque scared them. The police were like, "You idiots! You drove there with a gun! You can't blame the people you were harassing for your actions!" Finally.

I'm sure Pam and her ilk will soon be defending these poor boys with "the mooslims is so scary the boys had to drive there with a gun. They were forced by the mooslims mind control over the right thinking, god lovin' white boys in this country. Be afraid be, very afraid, it could be your son next who feels compelled by the Islam to drive to a Mosque with a gun in his car".

69 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:42:24pm

re: #63 Gus 802

That doesn't make any sense. You might want to try vitamin B supplements.

Win!

70 RadicalModerate  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:42:51pm

re: #60 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Appears to be a 2008 sock.

He posted a couple days ago concern-trolling the mosque-peeing incident.

71 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:43:25pm

cajinmonk:

You mean reports like this? Or maybe check through the hundreds of LGF pages and find references to anti-Semitic attacks in the US abroad.

It's been covered. Repeatedly.

72 Kragar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:43:35pm

re: #65 Varek Raith

Most relaxing, that.

Oh you're just aching to be turn into an arco-flaggelant.

73 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:44:05pm

re: #71 lawhawk

cajinmonk:

You mean reports like this? Or maybe check through the hundreds of LGF pages and find references to anti-Semitic attacks in the US abroad.

It's been covered. Repeatedly.

Bahh! Facts....what do they prove?
//

74 A Sockpuppet's Sockpuppet  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:44:32pm

re: #12 Charles

Oh great. Now there's apparently a libertarian loon who's writing articles about repealing the Civil Rights Act -- and he has the same name as me.

But can he play the guitar?

75 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:45:02pm

re: #68 webevintage

I'm sure Pam and her ilk will soon be defending these poor boys with "the mooslims is so scary the boys had to drive there with a gun. They were forced by the mooslims mind control over the right thinking, god lovin' white boys in this country. Be afraid be, very afraid, it could be your son next who feels compelled by the Islam to drive to a Mosque with a gun in his car".

Naw. Somebody will sneak over to see their parents' counter-tops and report back that they are librul false flag types trying to give "Real 'Mericans" bad publicity...

76 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:46:35pm

OT and didn't see it in the past few days but looks lik Another AGW denier bit the dust.

77 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:46:47pm

re: #67 oaktree

Vitamin E might be more appropriate... ;P

For the skin rash or itching?

/

78 darthstar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:46:57pm

A Three Star (birther) is Born

Retired Air Force Lieutenant General Thomas McInerney:

The President of the United States, as the Commander in Chief, is the source of all military authority. The Constitution requires the President to be a natural born citizen in order to be eligible to hold office. If he is ineligible under the Constitution to serve in that office that creates a break in the chain of command of such magnitude that its significance can scarcely be imagined.

As a practical example from my background I recall commanding forces that were equipped with nuclear weapons. In my command capacity I was responsible that personnel with access to these weapons had an unwavering and absolute confidence in the unified chain of command, because such confidence was absolutely essential-- vital-- in the event the use of those weapons was authorized. I cannot overstate how imperative it is to train such personnel to have confidence in the unified chain of command. Today, because of the widespread and legitimate concerns that the President is constitutionally ineligible to hold office, I fear what would happen should such a crisis occur today.

79 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:47:15pm

re: #72 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Oh you're just aching to be turn into an arco-flaggelant.

Too many hymnals praising an undead Emperor on a golden throne that is fed with the souls of a thousand psychers a day may do that too you. Oblivion is bliss...

80 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:47:54pm

re: #78 darthstar

A Three Star (birther) is Born

Retired Air Force Lieutenant General Thomas McInerney:

Sonuvabitch!

81 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:48:15pm

re: #77 Gus 802

For the skin rash or itching?

/

Treatment for disenvoweling. Vitamin D as well since we know that direct sunlight has detrimental effects on trolls as well.

82 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:48:24pm

re: #78 darthstar

A Three Star (birther) is Born

Retired Air Force Lieutenant General Thomas McInerney:

Christ on a crutch.

What the frakking hell??!!

83 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:48:27pm

re: #79 celticdragon

Too many hymnals praising an undead Emperor on a golden throne that is fed with the souls of a thousand psychers a day may do that too you. Oblivion is bliss...

You're both just jealous.

84 A Sockpuppet's Sockpuppet  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:48:44pm

re: #23 rwdflynavy

Not sure if this has been posted yet...

Noted anti-global-warming scientist reverses course

Good for him.

We won't see that happen too often because most of the denialists are old enough it doesn't matter to them what happens 30 years into the future, or they're simply nuts.

85 darthstar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:48:52pm

re: #80 Varek Raith

Sonuvabitch!

Hey, you don't get to be a Fox contributor just for being ex-military...you have to be batshit crazy, too.

86 Kragar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:49:30pm

re: #79 celticdragon

Too many hymnals praising an undead Emperor on a golden throne that is fed with the souls of a thousand psychers a day may do that too you. Oblivion is bliss...

You're just making it worse for yourself.

87 Kragar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:50:01pm

re: #83 Varek Raith

You're both just jealous.

***ZAP** to the naughty bits

88 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:50:02pm

re: #83 Varek Raith

You're both just jealous.

You're the one whose powers are dependent on some silly bacteria concentration in your blood. :p

And look at the steps gone through to deny the existence of that fact. Complete memory wipe for at least three episodes! :-D

89 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:50:42pm

re: #78 darthstar

A Three Star (birther) is Born

Retired Air Force Lieutenant General Thomas McInerney:

One of the biggest scams in the American scene is when certain political movements employ the endorsement of former military officers. The theory of course is that it would lend credence to their cause since it utilizes the irreproachable militarism inherent in the American psyche.

90 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:51:06pm

re: #88 oaktree

You're the one whose powers are dependent on some silly bacteria concentration in your blood. :p

And look at the steps gone through to deny the existence of that fact. Complete memory wipe for at least three episodes! :-D

I don't subscribe to the midhiwhatsits theory of the Force.
Energy fields FTW.

91 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:52:22pm

re: #83 Varek Raith

You're both just jealous.

We space marines know better.

92 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:52:37pm

re: #12 Charles

Oh great. Now there's apparently a libertarian loon who's writing articles about repealing the Civil Rights Act -- and he has the same name as me.

Well you know the name Charles and the surname Johnson are not exactly rare.

Perhaps you ought to legally change your name to the Great Lizardoid or some variant?

93 A Sockpuppet's Sockpuppet  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:53:30pm

re: #24 webevintage

When did white people become so damn whiny?

When we noticed the pushback from our delusions of superiority was coming from growing populations of non-whites wielding weapons of larger and larger influence.

94 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:53:31pm

re: #89 Gus 802

Moral authority... it's all about the moral authority.

That's why the anti-Cordoba House movement got a bunch of 9/11 families to jump to the forefront (even though the 9/11 families are anything but a monolithic group). They were hoping that the appeal to authority from the 9/11 families would be enough...

95 cliffster  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:53:32pm

vitamin D supplements are where it's at, just so yall know. And colloidal minerals.

96 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:53:37pm

re: #43 cajinmonk

Image: facepalm.jpg

97 darthstar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:53:46pm

re: #89 Gus 802

We treat retired military officers like special needs kids. Don't say anything bad about them because they're sacred...even when they pull shit like this. McInerney is an idiot. A three-star idiot who may have served well when he was active, but he's a fucking idiot.

There are admirable retired Generals all over the place (Wesley Clark comes to mind)...McInerney isn't one of them.

98 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:54:24pm

re: #92 DaddyG

Well you know the name Charles and the surname Johnson are not exactly rare.

Perhaps you ought to legally change your name to the Great Lizardoid or some variant?

That sounds like the character from the Flintstones who was president of the local men-only social club...

99 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:54:54pm

re: #96 Charles

Image: facepalm.jpg

I want that on a refrigerator magnet!

100 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:55:11pm

re: #97 darthstar

We treat retired military officers like special needs kids. Don't say anything bad about them because they're sacred...even when they pull shit like this. McInerney is an idiot. A three-star idiot who may have served well when he was active, but he's a fucking idiot.

There are admirable retired Generals all over the place (Wesley Clark comes to mind)...McInerney isn't one of them.

I don't admire Wesley Clark.

101 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:55:43pm

re: #100 wrenchwench

I don't admire Wesley Clark.

Colin Powell?

102 windsagio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:55:45pm

re: #100 wrenchwench

I don't admire Wesley Clark.

Give him a break, he was trying his hardest to think up a postive example!

103 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:55:52pm

re: #97 darthstar

He's also a Fox News commentator and columnist.

104 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:56:17pm

re: #102 windsagio

Give him a break, he was trying his hardest to think up a postive example!

General Kenobi.
/

105 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:57:07pm

re: #101 Gus 802

Colin Powell?

I kinda like him.

106 windsagio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:57:19pm

re: #104 Varek Raith

Asshole. Spent the whole last half of his life lying to cover up his own mistakes.

107 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:57:22pm

re: #43 cajinmonk

So. Do you hang around the swamps catching crawdads while playing the accordion and making your own beer?

108 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:57:28pm

re: #101 Gus 802

Colin Powell?

Colin Powell the brilliant General or Colin Powell the retiree who is on a full time payback campaign to his wife for years of being gone?

(Either one is a decent fellow)

109 darthstar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:57:54pm

re: #101 Gus 802

Colin Powell?

Until he lied to the UN, yes. After that...not so much.

110 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:57:57pm

OT: Hulu recently added some decent movies. Not the usual Lifetime made for TV chick flicks.
Birdy, The Professional, and Bottle Rocket are all highly recommended.

111 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:57:58pm

re: #106 windsagio

Asshole. Spent the whole last half of his life lying to cover up his own mistakes.


Midiclorian deficiency is nothing to make fun of.

112 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:58:34pm

re: #106 windsagio

Asshole. Spent the whole last half of his life lying to cover up his own mistakes.

What did you expect?
He's a Jedi!

113 darthstar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:58:36pm

re: #102 windsagio

Give him a break, he was trying his hardest to think up a postive example!

True dat...it's not so easy, given some of the high profile Generals running around on Fox news.

114 windsagio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:58:57pm

re: #111 DaddyG

I still like the line about he and Yoda being stuck in Jedi Hell. That's why they keep visiting.

115 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:59:17pm

re: #109 darthstar

Until he lied to the UN, yes. After that...not so much.


Let me know when the current administration finishes perfecting our intelligence network so none of us from the President on down will ever have bad data again.

116 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:59:47pm

re: #89 Gus 802

One of the biggest scams in the American scene is when certain political movements employ the endorsement of former military officers. The theory of course is that it would lend credence to their cause since it utilizes the irreproachable militarism inherent in the American psyche.

That is actually pretty damning.

There is a virulent strain of authoritarianism afoot these days that would have been unthinkable 40 years ago. Just check out the comments at any newspaper story where police gun down another unarmed black man ( or even a white man, fwiw) or taze grandma or a pregnant woman.

The cop/authority worshiping in some quarters is more than a little frightening, and unlimited deference with no questions asked is being applied to the military now.

That is not even remotely compatible with a free society.

117 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:59:52pm

re: #104 Varek Raith

There are many, many, many generals who retire gracefully, with the respect of the men and women they served with and do not disgrace themselves.

Including my hero, Chuck Yeager.

Who is very right-wing. But not a loon.

118 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:59:59pm

re: #109 darthstar

Until he lied to the UN, yes. After that...not so much.

Yeah. But the wingnuts hate him. Many are still blaming him for not taking the war into Baghdad during Operation Desert Storm. Historically my favorite remains Eisenhower.

119 windsagio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:00:03pm

re: #113 darthstar

Theres an issue that military culture tends towards conservative, if not regressive thought.

Remember the 'you must listen to Christian Rock!' story from a while ago.

on the other hand, thats why we have civilian control of the military :)

120 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:00:08pm

re: #97 darthstar

Really..It's not that at all.. All Military officers have my respect...I don't judge them on their politics...They made General on merit and honor and being a bad ass leader.. Look at it this way.. I think Sean Penn is a great great actor..When he talks politics I roll on the floor laughing...I still think he is a great actor with rocks in his head...

121 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:00:30pm

re: #104 Varek Raith

General Kenobi.
/

Admiral Ackbar.

122 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:01:17pm

re: #121 celticdragon

Admiral Ackbar.

You're just trying to lure me in...

123 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:01:36pm

re: #122 wrenchwench

You're just trying to lure me in...

It's a trap!

124 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:02:12pm

re: #116 celticdragon

That is actually pretty damning.

There is a virulent strain of authoritarianism afoot these days that would have been unthinkable 40 years ago. Just check out the comments at any newspaper story where police gun down another unarmed black man ( or even a white man, fwiw) or taze grandma or a pregnant woman.

The cop/authority worshiping in some quarters is more than a little frightening, and unlimited deference with no questions asked is being applied to the military now.

That is not even remotely compatible with a free society.

Exactly. As much as I appreciate the military we should always keep in mind the militarism is counter to democracy. This is especially true when we treat them as infallible and unquestionable idols.

125 windsagio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:02:15pm

re: #120 HoosierHoops

Really..It's not that at all.. All Military officers have my respect...I don't judge them on their politics...They made General on merit and honor and being a bad ass leader.. Look at it this way.. I think Sean Penn is a great great actor..When he talks politics I roll on the floor laughing...I still think he is a great actor with rocks in his head...

Fair enough, but we have to differentiate. We can respect the skill and talent that got them where they got (and as you say, its damn hard to get there), but know that they're no better at political theory than anyone else is... Although many of them are good at politics ;)

126 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:02:31pm

re: #123 celticdragon

It's a trap!

Image: ackbar_its_a_trap.jpg

127 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:02:36pm

re: #118 Gus 802

There is also the amazingly great George Marshall, who not only can take a great deal of credit for US success in WWII, but was the architect of the brilliant, unparalleled Marshall Plan.

He is probably my favorite.

128 darthstar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:03:06pm

re: #115 DaddyG

Let me know when the current administration finishes perfecting our intelligence network so none of us from the President on down will ever have bad data again.

That wasn't bad data, it was falsified. We were making shit up to fit a narrative.

Here, dump a couple of packets of Nutrasweet into a vial and hold it up, saying "If this was sarin, it could kill everyone in this room" or something to make people skeered.

129 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:03:19pm

re: #121 celticdragon

Admiral Ackbar.

General Turgidson

130 windsagio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:03:50pm

re: #124 Gus 802

Slightly ot, but the police too, there's been a trend lately for the police arresting people for recording them out in public.

Kinda messed up.

131 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:04:00pm

re: #129 Gus 802

General Turgidson

Grand Admiral Thrawn.
I win.

132 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:04:09pm

re: #127 Obdicut

There is also the amazingly great George Marshall, who not only can take a great deal of credit for US success in WWII, but was the architect of the brilliant, unparalleled Marshall Plan.

He is probably my favorite.

I actually like Halsey...screwups at Leyte Gulf aside.

133 Coracle  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:04:18pm

re: #128 darthstar

That wasn't bad data, it was falsified. We were making shit up to fit a narrative.

Here, dump a couple of packets of Nutrasweet into a vial and hold it up, saying "If this was sarin, it could kill everyone in this room" or something to make people skeered.

I'd love to see documentation of that. I was, and still am under the impression that Powell believed the data when he presented it, and was disillusioned rather severely when it proved false.

134 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:04:29pm

re: #125 windsagio

Fair enough, but we have to differentiate. We can respect the skill and talent that got them where they got (and as you say, its damn hard to get there), but know that they're no better at political theory than anyone else is... Although many of them are good at politics ;)

I really think few of them have political skills...They are trained to protect democracy not practice it...

135 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:04:30pm

re: #127 Obdicut

There is also the amazingly great George Marshall, who not only can take a great deal of credit for US success in WWII, but was the architect of the brilliant, unparalleled Marshall Plan.

He is probably my favorite.

True. And Marshall "discovered" Eisenhower.

136 windsagio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:05:30pm

re: #134 HoosierHoops

IT takes politics and sway to get your first star, let alone get any further. Any senior flag officer is an amazing inside political operator. They have to be.

137 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:05:38pm

re: #129 Gus 802

Gonna buck the trend...

138 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:05:50pm

re: #118 Gus 802

Yeah. But the wingnuts hate him. Many are still blaming him for not taking the war into Baghdad during Operation Desert Storm. Historically my favorite remains Eisenhower.

I like Bradley from the second hand reports I've heard from relatives and freinds who served under him. A real soldiers general but an effective commander too.

Frankly I have a real cynical view of most "experts" who present their views in the media or in seminars. I can't tell you the number of consultants who spew their latest insights about my own field who couldn't manage their way out of a paper bag full of original ideas. They do look good in suits and prattle plausible pablum for large fees however.

If I sound bitter I am. I spend a lot of time implementing practical solutions and cleaning up in the wake of the latest outside consultant who came and talked about some great idea to upper level leaders yet left them with no practical application whatsoever. I'm waiting to get one of those outside expert jobs but I don't think I could stand myself if I actually did.

139 darthstar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:06:24pm

re: #133 Coracle

I'd love to see documentation of that. I was, and still am under the impression that Powell believed the data when he presented it, and was disillusioned rather severely when it proved false.

He wasn't just disillusioned, he was fuckin' pissed! And rightly so. But I remember reading that he didn't want to go to the UN, but was chosen because he had the most international "credibility" in the administration. Now his legacy is as the General who lied to the UN, whereas he should be remembered for his admittedly excellent leadership during his military career.

I feel sorry for Powell, seriously.

140 Kragar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:07:39pm

re: #131 Varek Raith

Grand Admiral Thrawn.
I win.

Commisar Ciaphis Cain.

Game, Set and Match.

141 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:08:12pm

re: #138 DaddyG

Bradley was promoted above his ability. Have you read A War To Be Won?

His jealousy of Patton was also a problem.

142 Coracle  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:08:54pm

re: #139 darthstar

He wasn't just disillusioned, he was fuckin' pissed! And rightly so. But I remember reading that he didn't want to go to the UN, but was chosen because he had the most international "credibility" in the administration. Now his legacy is as the General who lied to the UN, whereas he should be remembered for his admittedly excellent leadership during his military career.

I feel sorry for Powell, seriously.

You'll just have to forgive me for not being satisfied with "I remember reading". I want the source. Nothing I've read credibly claims he knew the intelligence was false before he gave his report.

143 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:09:02pm

re: #140 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Commisar Ciaphis Cain.

Game, Set and Match.

Bah!

144 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:09:03pm

re: #140 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Commisar Ciaphis Cain.

Game, Set and Match.

Darth Revan.

Doesn't play games.

145 windsagio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:09:16pm

re: #141 Obdicut

I'd hate patton too, if I were another general ;)

Overrated glory-hound!

146 Bubblehead II  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:10:06pm

Kinda OT.

The Harpy and the Gnome are pulling a Glenn Beck at their little hatefest

no-signs-at-the-911-ground-zero-mega-mosque-rally (It's a Goggle Cache link)

Robert and I respectfully request that those of you who will be attending our protest against the Ground Zero mega mosque bring American flags, not signs. 9 x 12 sized flags. Nothing with big poles: the NYPD won't allow big poles. Please get the word out now.

We will be confiscating signs. It is a solemn day. No signs. FLAGS. Tens of thousands of flags.

147 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:10:29pm

Geez, who let all these geeks on LGF?!
This site's changing, man!
/
:)

148 cliffster  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:10:34pm

re: #130 windsagio

Slightly ot, but the police too, there's been a trend lately for the police arresting people for recording them out in public.

Kinda messed up.

Recording police officers: Class 1 felony

I'm not sure what kind of thinking makes this seem ok

149 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:10:56pm

re: #136 windsagio

IT takes politics and sway to get your first star, let alone get any further. Any senior flag officer is an amazing inside political operator. They have to be.

Hi windy..Hope you are well today..
Having spend 20 years working for the Navy as a DOD employee.. I can assure you there is Military politics and Civilian politics to advance in rank.
I think we both have valid points that is a complex brew in today's political climate...

150 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:10:59pm

re: #140 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Commisar Ciaphis Cain.

Game, Set and Match.

But none are nearly as suave and debonair (not to mention not scruffy looking) as Gen. Solo or Gen. Calrissian.

Just pray that I don't alter the deal any further... .

151 darthstar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:11:07pm

re: #142 Coracle

You'll just have to forgive me for not being satisfied with "I remember reading". I want the source. Nothing I've read credibly claims he knew the intelligence was false before he gave his report.

And that's fine, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to do a google search for all the articles on Colin Powell from 2003 to 2007. Suffice it to say I'm not making this shit up, but you're free to doubt me.

152 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:12:00pm

re: #145 windsagio

I'd hate patton too, if I were another general ;)

Overrated glory-hound!

Not overrated. Insane, jingoistic, weird as hell, but not at all overrated.

He made exactly one large strategic mistake that can be pointed to-- the Battle of Metz.

153 windsagio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:12:03pm

re: #148 cliffster

Because they can, at least until it gets to the supreme court.

Makes. me. so mad!

154 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:12:15pm

re: #150 lawhawk

But none are nearly as suave and debonair (not to mention not scruffy looking) as Gen. Solo or Gen. Calrissian.

Just pray that I don't alter the deal any further... .

155 Kragar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:12:33pm

re: #150 lawhawk

But none are nearly as suave and debonair (not to mention not scruffy looking) as Gen. Solo or Gen. Calrissian.

Just pray that I don't alter the deal any further... .

Cain would out do them both.

156 windsagio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:13:10pm

re: #152 Obdicut

My view is that he made a number of gambles that ended up working. Luck being a bit different would have substantially changed his legacy >>

All guesswork of course, I admit you can't argue with the guys record :D

157 darthstar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:14:04pm

re: #142 Coracle

You'll just have to forgive me for not being satisfied with "I remember reading". I want the source. Nothing I've read credibly claims he knew the intelligence was false before he gave his report.

Oh, and I didn't say Powell KNEW the information was false. I just said he was sent because he was more believable than President Bush or that unkown unknowns asshole.

158 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:15:23pm

re: #155 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Maybe Helena Cain... or Commander Cain...

159 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:15:35pm

Hey. TPM has the mugshots of the teens being charged in NY.

Image: mugs-collage-cropped-proto-custom_2.jpg

160 cliffster  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:15:54pm

re: #153 windsagio

From the article:

On March 5, 24-year-old Anthony John Graber III's motorcycle was pulled over for speeding. He is currently facing criminal charges for a video he recorded on his helmet-mounted camera during the traffic stop.

The case is disturbing because:

1) Graber was not arrested immediately. Ten days after the encounter, he posted some of he material to YouTube, and it embarrassed Trooper J. D. Uhler. The trooper, who was in plainclothes and an unmarked car, jumped out waving a gun and screaming. Only later did Uhler identify himself as a police officer. When the YouTube video was discovered the police got a warrant against Graber, searched his parents' house (where he presumably lives), seized equipment, and charged him with a violation of wiretapping law.

...

Unbelievable.

161 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:16:04pm

re: #134 HoosierHoops

I really think few of them have political skills...They are trained to protect democracy not practice it...

They do have to have a certain amount of political skill to rise above Lt. Colonel or Colonel. Command school is referred to as "charm school" by some officers. Once you reach that level you are as likely as not to be called upon for diplomatic duties and press conferences.

Beyond that the skill to rise in the political arena is another level.

162 darthstar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:16:11pm

re: #159 Gus 802

Yep...posted those earlier. One guy looks like he's about to shit himself.

163 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:16:15pm

re: #156 windsagio

My view is that he made a number of gambles that ended up working. Luck being a bit different would have substantially changed his legacy >>

All guesswork of course, I admit you can't argue with the guys record :D

Luck being different would have changed any great general's record. Most great generals are great because they took chances, and had their armies in good order to exploit those chances.

His drive towards the Bulge, to relieve Bastogne, proves that he's not overrated. Disengaging from an attack and immediately launching into another attack-- without disaster-- is more than luck.

164 iossarian  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:17:03pm

re: #138 DaddyG


If I sound bitter I am. I spend a lot of time implementing practical solutions and cleaning up in the wake of the latest outside consultant who came and talked about some great idea to upper level leaders yet left them with no practical application whatsoever. I'm waiting to get one of those outside expert jobs but I don't think I could stand myself if I actually did.

I've had such a job and I think it works better for some things than others. In particular, I was always amazed at how much difference there was in operational quality between competing businesses, and that usually the low-performing business was actually not really aware of what they were doing wrong. I'm talking simple stuff like "have color-coded checklists for repetitive manual tasks".

But at the higher, strategic level, I agree that you're frequently paying someone to read your watch and tell you the time, as the old cliche goes. I got out of it in part because I couldn't stand the fact that a majority of the people in that realm would literally make stuff up rather than admit ignorance.

I think it can be a rewarding career if you find a niche in which you absolutely know your stuff, and other people don't (and need to).

165 windsagio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:17:17pm

re: #160 cliffster

Man, I see that and it always goes back to the song:
(very NSFW)


166 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:17:40pm

re: #130 windsagio

Slightly ot, but the police too, there's been a trend lately for the police arresting people for recording them out in public.

Kinda messed up.

Radley Balko at The Agitator covers that exhaustively. I check his blog daily.

A couple of today's links...

Man falls, wife calls paramedics, man ends up tased three times.

Man whittling in public confronted by police. Ends up dead.


We have a case of "go to jail for having a camera phone while a cop is at a traffic stop" right here in North Carolina that Balko reported on. The woman was arrested for refusing to go inside her own home after an officer saw her taking a recording of a traffic stop from her own porch on her own private property! In a judge only trial, the judge convicted her of interfering with a police officer/resisting arrest for refusing to be a good little girl and going inside when officer friendly got a case of the "respect mah authoitah".

167 TedStriker  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:17:42pm

re: #97 darthstar

We treat retired military officers like special needs kids. Don't say anything bad about them because they're sacred...even when they pull shit like this. McInerney is an idiot. A three-star idiot who may have served well when he was active, but he's a fucking idiot.

There are admirable retired Generals all over the place (Wesley Clark comes to mind)...McInerney isn't one of them.

I agree with most of your sentiment, except that I think Wesley Clark is a weasel...a politically-calculating weasel, IIRC.

168 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:17:47pm

This is an atrocity.

I only have one quibble with the post made by Charles.

This is a lot more than the effect of Pamela Geller and Spencer and the like.

This is Fox "news" and Rush and Coulter and several years of fear mongering and race baiting coming to a head. Without Fox, only the fringe right would know who Geller is.

This is why we are talking about a nascent movement, rather than isolated crazies.

169 cliffster  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:17:55pm

re: #165 windsagio

saw that one coming a mile away!

170 windsagio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:18:03pm

re: #163 Obdicut

YOu make a good argument, sir! I surrender.

Can we agree that MacArthur was a hack?!

171 windsagio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:19:08pm

re: #169 cliffster

I resisted as long as I could!


Seriously what's wrong with us that we let it get to this?

172 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:19:20pm

re: #141 Obdicut

Bradley was promoted above his ability. Have you read A War To Be Won?

His jealousy of Patton was also a problem.

I have not read that.

My Dad (Korean era vet) always felt like he'd rather be in Bradleys corp than Pattons. Yet Patton had a better casaulty rate despite his hard charging ways. Patton is another favorite - especially the George C. Scott version.

173 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:19:35pm

re: #162 darthstar

Yep...posted those earlier. One guy looks like he's about to shit himself.

Malkin, Geller, et al, are probably busy trying to find out who their parents voted for.

174 TedStriker  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:19:38pm

re: #117 Obdicut

There are many, many, many generals who retire gracefully, with the respect of the men and women they served with and do not disgrace themselves.

Including my hero, Chuck Yeager.

Who is very right-wing. But not a loon.

And Chuck's still kicking...mad props to a man who broke the speed of sound in a tiny craft with a couple of broken ribs.

175 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:19:46pm

re: #170 windsagio

YOu make a good argument, sir! I surrender.

Can we agree that MacArthur was a hack?!

Oh, certainly. Fuck him. He was a crazy man who fought a fantasy of a war that, very luckily, happened to remotely coincide with the real one. His 'defense' of the Phillipines was a catastrophic, foolish nightmare.

Have you read the book I cited above, A War to Be Won? It's my favorite single-volume work on WWII.

176 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:20:18pm

re: #159 Gus 802

Hey. TPM has the mugshots of the teens being charged in NY.

Image: mugs-collage-cropped-proto-custom_2.jpg

Aren't they the pick of the litter. Just got out of a National Honor Society meeting, or perhaps a varsity football pratice? /

177 windsagio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:21:22pm

re: #175 Obdicut

I have not! I'm resistant to reading WW2 books usually, they're often Jingoistic nightmares.

That being said, I read both of Bill Mauldin's memoirs, those were good >>

I'll add it to the list tho' (although sadly, that list is like 6 months behind now)

178 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:21:38pm

re: #160 cliffster

From the article:

Unbelievable.

Recording an officer doing something illegal to you (like rape, beating you, interrogating you with pliers and baling wire) can get you as much or even more jail time than the cop abusing you in Illinois at this point. Photographing a cop is now the same as aggravated rape.

179 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:21:43pm

Ha! And Sarah Palin has been using a ghostwrite for her Facebook page.

Geez.

180 Kragar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:21:48pm

There is only one Cain

Ciaphas Cain

Cain, having observed the tendency of many members of the Commissariat to fall victim to "accidental" friendly fire, prefers to lead by example and encouragement instead of fear, and has gained a reputation for charismatic leadership, self-effacing heroism and concern for the common trooper. The truth is that Cain presents himself as being the sort of person he himself is supposed to execute: self-serving, incredibly paranoid, and happy to put as many bodies between him and the enemy as possible in order to save his own skin. The author has stated that the character of Cain was inspired by both Harry Flashman and Edmund Blackadder.[10]

Cain is a classic example of an unreliable narrator. In addition to his memoirs being self-centered, containing nothing on the context of his adventures, Inquisitor Vail must occasionally add footnotes to some of his recollections to point out that Cain has just glossed over something another man might take pride in. For instance, Vail at one point praises Cain's marksmanship, pointing out that he had just made quite a remarkable long-range shot with an inaccurate pistol, while Cain himself writes onward without acknowledging (or possibly even being aware of) his own skill. Likewise, Cain views himself as a cowardly figure of little worth, often wondering why various enemy generals are so fixated on defeating him—leaving us completely ignorant (until Vail points it out) of the morale boost caused by the mere presence of a genuine "Hero of the Imperium!", much less any acts of heroism that may be forthcoming. In the end, Vail's limited interjections indicate that she believes Cain is too hard on himself; author Sandy Mitchell has stated that he himself is not sure if Cain is truly a coward, or a genuine hero with a massive inferiority complex.

181 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:21:59pm

re: #179 Gus 802

Ha! And Sarah Palin has been using a ghostwriter for her Facebook page.

Geez.

PIMF

182 Coracle  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:22:12pm

re: #157 darthstar

Oh, and I didn't say Powell KNEW the information was false. I just said he was sent because he was more believable than President Bush or that unkown unknowns asshole.

That's quite different than him being a liar. That's him being a dupe. Shameful on the administration, but forgivable in him.

183 webevintage  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:22:25pm

re: #166 celticdragon

Radley Balko at The Agitator covers that exhaustively. I check his blog daily.

A couple of today's links...

Man falls, wife calls paramedics, man ends up tased three times.

Man whittling in public confronted by police. Ends up dead.

We have a case of "go to jail for having a camera phone while a cop is at a traffic stop" right here in North Carolina that Balko reported on. The woman was arrested for refusing to go inside her own home after an officer saw her taking a recording of a traffic stop from her own porch on her own private property! In a judge only trial, the judge convicted her of interfering with a police officer/resisting arrest for refusing to be a good little girl and going inside when officer friendly got a case of the "respect mah authoitah".

wow.
The last one is amazing.
This needs to stop, there is nothing I abhor more then the police intimidating the populace.

I wonder if the police have tried to use ridiculously broad readings of existing laws to go after photojournalists too.?

184 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:22:29pm

re: #164 iossarian
Thats the difference I'm referring too. You were an expert that brought a solution vs. an expert that had an opinion.

I will barf the next time someone comes in to tell us leadership is all about inspiring and communicating vision. Bleh!

185 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:22:37pm

re: #163 Obdicut

Luck being different would have changed any great general's record. Most great generals are great because they took chances, and had their armies in good order to exploit those chances.

His drive towards the Bulge, to relieve Bastogne, proves that he's not overrated. Disengaging from an attack and immediately launching into another attack-- without disaster-- is more than luck.

Patton was a great general. He was a total bastard in person, but a great general. It is funny to see this today, since I was thinking about him yesterday in the context of pentagon politics and a discussion of the fortunately cancelled F-22.

Patton was a general first and gave a damn about politics. I have absolutely no defense for some of his egregious views, nor do I make them. On the other hand, in the thick of a fight, it really doesn't matter if your general is an asshole socially. What matters is that he wins.

Ever since the second world war, we have seen a tremendous rise of political generals. They are very good at the Potomac two step - but not so good at being fighting men. These were exactly the sorts that Patton despised.

As to luck... fortune favors the bold.

186 Kragar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:22:39pm

re: #179 Gus 802

Ha! And Sarah Palin has been using a ghostwrite for her Facebook page.

Geez.

Not even suprised.

187 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:22:42pm

re: #172 DaddyG

Heh. Yeah, another general I thin is amazing, in the Patton mold, is Zhukov-- the Russian general. He would march his troops through a minefield to make a flank attack, using the cold-blooded logic that they would actually suffer fewer casualties by doing so than making a frontal attack. So really, in the end, he did save lives of his soldiers-- and Russian civilians, because the Germans had made it clear this was Total War-- but, even though logically one should prefer to be a member of his army than another general's, it's hard to conceptualize.

Also remember that Bradley was the advisor for that Patton movie, and so got to tell the version of events his way.

Patton's biggest failure as a general was slapping that soldier. That was moronic, and not the way the American Army does things.

188 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:22:52pm

re: #170 windsagio

YOu make a good argument, sir! I surrender.

Can we agree that MacArthur was a hack?!

Yes. He was a hack.

189 cliffster  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:23:01pm

re: #171 windsagio

I resisted as long as I could!

Seriously what's wrong with us that we let it get to this?

nothing against NWA, but I really dig the rage version

190 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:23:50pm

re: #177 windsagio

A War To Be Won is not the in least bit jingoistic, except that it holds the Nazis needed to be defeated, as did the Imperial Japanese. It calls out failure on every side, of every sort. Great book.

191 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:24:12pm

re: #175 Obdicut

Oh, certainly. Fuck him. He was a crazy man who fought a fantasy of a war that, very luckily, happened to remotely coincide with the real one. His 'defense' of the Phillipines was a catastrophic, foolish nightmare.

Have you read the book I cited above, A War to Be Won? It's my favorite single-volume work on WWII.

Now MacArthur is the exact opposite of Patton. If there was ever a prima-donna with his eyes on his own glory first - from a political perspective - it was MacArthur.

And thank God Truman fired him.

192 windsagio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:24:16pm

re: #183 webevintage

Bloggers for sure (can't remember where now), straight up reporters, havent' heard stories like that yet. They probably know better.

You mostly see this kind of thing only when they're damn sure they can get away with it.

193 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:24:24pm

re: #180 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

There is only one Cain

Ciaphas Cain

But can he shoot a laser out of his eye like Commissar Yarrick?

194 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:24:24pm

re: #174 talon_262

And Chuck's still kicking...mad props to a man who broke the speed of sound in a tiny craft with a couple of broken ribs.


Don't forget the blackjack gum. That was his secret weapon.

195 windsagio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:25:31pm

re: #190 Obdicut

A War To Be Won is not the in least bit jingoistic, except that it holds the Nazis needed to be defeated, as did the Imperial Japanese. It calls out failure on every side, of every sort. Great book.

You're selling me pretty well, I'll look it up. Loved Battle Cry of Freedom (different war of course, but sounds similar)

re: #191 LudwigVanQuixote

no kidding! We can almost directly blame him for the existance of N.Korea too. Hardcore rightwinger of course :)

196 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:25:59pm

re: #185 LudwigVanQuixote

Or as Patton would say, quoting Fredrick the Great who was quoting Alcibiades, "L'audace, l'audace, toujours l'audace!"

197 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:26:05pm

re: #185 LudwigVanQuixote

Ever since the second world war, we have seen a tremendous rise of political generals. They are very good at the Potomac two step - but not so good at being fighting men.

We had that problem around the start of the Civil War too.

198 windsagio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:26:21pm

re: #189 cliffster

Haha, I should ahve done that one, I actually forgot about it >>

199 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:27:00pm

re: #172 DaddyG

I have not read that.

My Dad (Korean era vet) always felt like he'd rather be in Bradleys corp than Pattons. Yet Patton had a better casaulty rate despite his hard charging ways. Patton is another favorite - especially the George C. Scott version.

I wonder if part of the difference was Bradley coming up through the infantry and Patton being a cavalryman (which included him passing up an initial opportunity to get into armor in the early 30s despite his experience with it in WW1.)

Patton was aggressive in the belief that you had to keep pushing to keep the enemy off-balance. Don't let him dig in and consolidate since it will be more costly to make the set-piece assault later. Push, go around the flanks, and displace him by threatening his rear and supplies.

And, if anything, the US Army of that time was built to exploit that way. Fully motorized divisions, armored units designed in part for flexible use with dependable tanks built for explotation. Very few tanks and weapons designed for direct fortification assault (and many of those were field expedients of putting extra armor on Shermans). And a lot of the German equipment losses in the fall of 1944 were due to abandonment. If you get out-flanked/cut-off you need to retreat, and it generally doesn't help that at the same time the Jabos are ripping up all your hard to replace soft transport.

200 Kragar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:27:09pm

re: #193 celticdragon

But can he shoot a laser out of his eye like Commissar Yarrick?

No, but he is accompanied by his trusted bodyguard, Jurgen.

Gunner Ferik Jurgen – Cain's personal aide. Noticeable for his powerful body odour and chronic psoriasis (which discourage others from getting too close to him), Jurgen is also a "blank", or a psychic null; this trait saved them both on more than one occasion. Jurgen has complete loyalty to Commissar Cain, and his unwavering dedication to him has helped both of them through many dangerous situations. Cain finds Jurgen an excellent aide, as Jurgen doggedly follows Cain's orders, always thinking of them as for the good of the Imperium, something which Cain finds extremely useful. Jurgen is also noted for his fear of flying and his exceptionally aggressive driving style; he routinely drives Cain's personal scout Salamander in a manner described as "insane" and, coupled with his literal-mindedness and loyalty, he will often crash through walls or drive straight up shuttle boarding ramps without hesitation. Jurgen also makes an excellent secretary, as very few people are able to get past him to see Cain unless it is VERY important (reducing the amount of office work done by Cain and allowing him to take "breaks" without his absence being noticed). Despite his otherwise dogged adherence to authority, Jurgen's appearance has often been remarked as being extremely shabby for a soldier. He has never been able to find a uniform that fit him properly, maintains a shabby beard (which he has medical dispensation for due to his skin diseases) and believes hygiene is something that happens to other people.

201 windsagio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:27:29pm

re: #197 DaddyG

We've always had it, as had just about every nation. Nothing new under the sun, etc etc.

202 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:28:41pm

re: #197 DaddyG

We had that problem around the start of the Civil War too.

Absolutely. That was a different sort of politics that was not heavily entwined with the military industrial complex. That is why I made the distinction.

It was also of course, FDR's greatest gift, that he knew how to find the right people for the job and was willing to promote them above other political types.

Marshall was a brigadier.

On Dec 7 of 41, Eisenhower was a colonel.

Only people in the know had heard of Nimitz.

203 webevintage  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:28:48pm

Dear God.
My son just left to drive himself to work for the first time.

I think I'm going to have a stroke...at least until he gets there.
Someone tell me it gets better after a few days.

204 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:30:16pm

re: #183 webevintage

wow.
The last one is amazing.
This needs to stop, there is nothing I abhor more then the police intimidating the populace.

I wonder if the police have tried to use ridiculously broad readings of existing laws to go after photojournalists too.?

Yes.

Carlos Miller runs the Photography is not a crime blog which describes some of his misadventures with other photojournalists in Miami. He has a lot more on Judge Dixon and the farcical conviction of the woman in North Carolina for the crime of taking public pictures on her own property. I was part of the effort at Judge Dixon's facebook page that forced her to take her re-election page down completely. :)

205 kirkspencer  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:30:22pm

re: #203 webevintage

What, you're asking us to lie to you?

206 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:30:26pm

re: #187 Obdicut

Yeah... I wonder about the real damage caused by that slap. It took Patton out of the game for a long time. He was a great decoy at Calais but wow!? (Of course this is all Would've Could've Sould've by me- a civilian who's closest tase of war was a DVD of Saving Private Ryan.)

207 windsagio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:30:59pm

re: #204 celticdragon

Gonna fave that blog, altho' I'm not sure its good for the ol' ulcer ;)

208 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:31:18pm

re: #199 oaktree

I wonder if part of the difference was Bradley coming up through the infantry and Patton being a cavalryman (which included him passing up an initial opportunity to get into armor in the early 30s despite his experience with it in WW1.)

Patton was aggressive in the belief that you had to keep pushing to keep the enemy off-balance. Don't let him dig in and consolidate since it will be more costly to make the set-piece assault later. Push, go around the flanks, and displace him by threatening his rear and supplies.

And, if anything, the US Army of that time was built to exploit that way. Fully motorized divisions, armored units designed in part for flexible use with dependable tanks built for explotation. Very few tanks and weapons designed for direct fortification assault (and many of those were field expedients of putting extra armor on Shermans). And a lot of the German equipment losses in the fall of 1944 were due to abandonment. If you get out-flanked/cut-off you need to retreat, and it generally doesn't help that at the same time the Jabos are ripping up all your hard to replace soft transport.

Patton was well known to have read Rommel's book and understood it. He also improved on it.

Rommel of course, was well known for understanding Nelson...

Bradley is easily my favorite General of the Second World War. He understood everything that a man like Patton did, but was more cautious about spending lives. He also had the humility to know when he needed Patton.

209 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:31:51pm

re: #206 DaddyG

Yeah, it's remotely possible that he did more good as a decoy than he would in the field-- but it also made it much harder for him politically down the road, when he lost political battles to Montgomery, and we wound up following Monty's plodding plans way too many times. Without the slap, that might not have happened.

210 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:32:19pm

re: #199 oaktree

Patton was a student of war. It showed.

211 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:32:20pm

re: #208 LudwigVanQuixote

Have you read A War To Be Won?

Bradley doesn't come off very well in it.

212 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:32:52pm

So, is the eco-moonbat still on the loose in Silver Spring, or have they caught him already?

213 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:33:33pm

re: #202 LudwigVanQuixote

The most well known of the generals/admirals at the time of Pearl Harbor:

Jimmy Doolittle, Patton, and MacArthur. Patton and MacArthur were involved in breaking up the Bonus Army in DC; MacArthur ordered the disruption. Eisenhower was on MacArthur's staff, and counseled against going against the Bonus Army.

Doolittle was known for his flying exploits (setting all kinds of flight records).

214 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:33:37pm

Fucked up stuff.

215 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:34:58pm

re: #190 Obdicut

A War To Be Won is not the in least bit jingoistic, except that it holds the Nazis needed to be defeated, as did the Imperial Japanese. It calls out failure on every side, of every sort. Great book.

I just finished Willmott's _Empires In the Balance_ and _Barrier and the Javelin_ (US and Japanese strategy in the Pacific between roughly June 1941 and June 42; e.g. through Midway.)

I don't think anyone gets that good a grade there. And Willmott points out the rampant service politics taking place on all sides. *

* - Though a lot of it pales compared to the service politics in Imperial Japan. In Allied service politics assassination by some fanatical mid-level officer was generally not preceived as a real threat. Not so in pre-WW2 Japan. Some wag made the remark that the IJN fought the war as if the greatest enemy was not the Allies, but the Japanese Army. And vice-versa.

216 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:35:12pm

re: #211 Obdicut

Have you read A War To Be Won?

Bradley doesn't come off very well in it.

I haven't read that one.

Since you recommended it so highly I will look into it.

No general or admiral is perfect. Well, but Nimitz was darn close to perfect (and so was Spruance) but I think that the accomplishments of Bradly outweigh his flaws.

What in particular did he not come off well in, in that book?

217 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:35:14pm

As for WWII generals, I always liked George Marshall. My dad went to a high school named after his and I used to get on the bus a block away from where he lived in Virginia. Another general I like and I guess it's partially because he was of Irish decent and I am in to airborne history but James Gavin.

218 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:35:43pm

The most impressive Navy Officer I have ever met
We had just Drydocked the SSN646 Sub into DD#4 at MINSY.. It was like 6am when I arrived to drink some Coffee and eat a sinker...This larger than man grabbed a cup and poured me a cup of Jo...It was the old man and he looked like fricking John Wayne..He had a booming voice and was just a natural leader..
' So what are you going to do to fix my boat to be the best in the fleet? He asked..I was just in awe as we spoke about cleaning the mains in the Engine.. A natural leader that poured you coffee...I wish I could remember his name..I'm google him...So a few days later He climbed up into the Mains and I showed how we measure tube wall thickness and replacement....He said to follow him and we went into the Captain's room and he showed me pictures of past missions...Years ago the 646 mission was to sneak into all the Russian ports and take pictures of all the ships docked there. And sneaking back out unnoticed.. I saw the pictures on the wall.. This Captain was proud and should have been the President...
Seriously he was John Wayne like...I'll bet the men on that boat would have followed him to hell and back.. I know If I was on that Sub..I would have...

219 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:35:50pm

re: #213 lawhawk

The most well known of the generals/admirals at the time of Pearl Harbor:

Jimmy Doolittle, Patton, and MacArthur. Patton and MacArthur were involved in breaking up the Bonus Army in DC; MacArthur ordered the disruption. Eisenhower was on MacArthur's staff, and counseled against going against the Bonus Army.

Doolittle was known for his flying exploits (setting all kinds of flight records).

I have never forgiven MacArthur for the Bonus Army break up/thuggery.

220 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:36:07pm

re: #216 LudwigVanQuixote

I haven't read that one.

Since you recommended it so highly I will look into it.

No general or admiral is perfect. Well, but Nimitz was darn close to perfect (and so was Spruance) but I think that the accomplishments of Bradly outweigh his flaws.

What in particular did he not come off well in, in that book?

I agree.

221 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:37:30pm

re: #219 celticdragon

I have never forgiven MacArthur for the Bonus Army break up/thuggery.

I've never been that big of a fan either of MacArthur. My Korean War vet grandfather didn't really talk too much about his experiences there too much but one thing that I remember really well that he said after all these years is how grateful he was to Truman for firing MacArthur.

222 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:37:55pm

re: #213 lawhawk

The most well known of the generals/admirals at the time of Pearl Harbor:

Jimmy Doolittle, Patton, and MacArthur. Patton and MacArthur were involved in breaking up the Bonus Army in DC; MacArthur ordered the disruption. Eisenhower was on MacArthur's staff, and counseled against going against the Bonus Army.

Doolittle was known for his flying exploits (setting all kinds of flight records).

All well said and true. Yet, Marshall was placed above them and his opposite number King did the same thing for the navy.

What Marshal and King did, was go through the available senior officers and see that they were placed in commands where their talents could shine.

Without them, Eisenhower and Bradly would still be low on the totem pole and so would have been Nimitz and Spruance. I also think that Halsey gets an unfair rap - even though he did screw up trying to cross that T.

223 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:39:25pm

re: #216 LudwigVanQuixote

Mainly in the advance in Western Europe, post-landing, the pace of it and the strategic objectives chosen. I won't do the authors the disservice of boiling down what they say into a post here.

It is one of the few books I have read that accurately and superbly describes both political and military elements of the war, while never forgetting that in the end there's a guy down there on the ground with a rifle on his hand.

And, if I may say, the whole thing is written in a tone of sad rage which I think is similar to yours.

224 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:41:31pm

re: #208 LudwigVanQuixote

Rommel of course, was well known for understanding Nelson...

Rommel was playing for the wrong team and he knew it. There is serious inquires and some first person reports that Rommel was getting ready to surrender the entire Western Front to the Allies just as he got strafed by that Brit fighter. Of course, he had to kill himself white he was recovering because of the failed bomb plot.

He was the only German general in WW II who never violated the laws of land warfare, and he was serious about protecting POW's and civilians in his AO. He kicked the SS out of North Africa when they tried to go hunting for Jews in the coastal cities. I understand that the British 8th Army still observes his birthday.

225 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:41:47pm

I enjoyed the narrative style of the Jeff Shaara books set in the Mexican American war, Civil War, WWI and WWII.

Foryou history buffs, which series is historically accurate yet entertaining like those?

226 celticdragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:43:01pm

Meh. There are...not there is.

Sorry.

Gotta go study for my Spanish Class.

227 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:43:17pm

We are looking at a long term religious war here. This incident is just part of it; it's like one of those birthday candles that you cannot blow out.

Try and stand aside.

That's the best you can do, I think.

228 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:43:28pm

re: #224 celticdragon
Rommel is a distant cousin on my mothers side. I'm kind of fond of knowing he was honorable. One good apple... well.

229 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:43:43pm

re: #223 Obdicut

Mainly in the advance in Western Europe, post-landing, the pace of it and the strategic objectives chosen. I won't do the authors the disservice of boiling down what they say into a post here.

It is one of the few books I have read that accurately and superbly describes both political and military elements of the war, while never forgetting that in the end there's a guy down there on the ground with a rifle on his hand.

And, if I may say, the whole thing is written in a tone of sad rage which I think is similar to yours.

I think a lot of generals are aware of that. And also accept the responsibility that they are sending men out to die. It goes with the job and one reason good officers get respect.

Otherwise you'll see generals that are good at handling the peacetime and/or non-front line activities who simply fold up once the wheel hits the road and blood starts to flow.
(Aside: I've read somewhere a theory that MacClellan's big failing in the Civil War war a tentativeness in actually seeing the army he built get shot up.)

230 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:44:05pm

re: #224 celticdragon

Rommel was in on the plot to blow up Hitler too, and died as a result of it.

231 Kragar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:44:24pm

re: #226 celticdragon

Meh. There are...not there is.

Sorry.

Gotta go study for my Spanish Class.

I can officially goof off from studying for the next few weeks at least!

232 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:44:27pm

We had a few officers in the family and a couple 2nd cousins who currently serve. Nice guys all around.

My dad, who was a PFC and battalion scout for 4 years in the Pacific Theater from Guadalcanal Canal to Nagasaki, once said to me, and I'm paraphrasing "I never met an officer I didn't end up wanting to shoot."

I think I got all my antiauthoritarian tendencies from him.

233 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:45:09pm
234 Kragar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:45:14pm

re: #230 Ojoe

Rommel was in on the plot to blow up Hitler too, and died as a result of it.

Actually, he was approached to join the conspiracy, but declined to assist them, but also refused to turn them in.

235 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:45:44pm

re: #227 Ojoe

We are looking at a long term religious war here. This incident is just part of it; it's like one of those birthday candles that you cannot blow out.

Try and stand aside.

That's the best you can do, I think.


Perhaps it is not Muslim vs. Christian but more radical vs. moderate? I see more similarity between the Taliban and some far right Christians than I do between Wahabbism and American Muslims.

236 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:45:55pm

Former military interrogator: Building NYC Islamic center would help fight al Qaeda

Building an Islamic community center near the site of the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in New York will "deprive al Qaeda of its No. 1 recruiting tool," a former United States military interrogator in Iraq said Wednesday.

"The No. 1 reason foreign fighters came to Iraq was Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo," said Matthew Alexander, the author of "How to Break a Terrorist," referring to the notorious U.S.-run prison in Iraq and the detention center for foreign fighters at the U.S. military base in Cuba.

"Symbols do matter," Alexander said, arguing: "What's going to end the conflict is defeating al Qaeda's ability to recruit."

Alexander was speaking to reporters on a conference call in defense of the controversial project that has been labeled the "ground zero mosque."

...

237 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:46:25pm

re: #227 Ojoe

We are looking at a long term religious war here. This incident is just part of it; it's like one of those birthday candles that you cannot blow out.

Try and stand aside.

That's the best you can do, I think.

I disagree. It's not a religious war. It's bigotry being encouraged by malicious people who stand to gain from it in one way or another. Don't stand aside, stand in their way.

That's the best you can do, I think.

238 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:48:20pm

re: #234 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

IIRC the conspirators had picked him to replace Herr H.

Anyway as a result of the whole affair he was "required" to commit suicide, IIRC

239 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:48:37pm

re: #232 Jeff In Ohio

Heh. My grandfather was an officer, a Captain in WWII. His letters home were remarkably frank about how many of his fellow officers he felt were just faking their way through, relying wholly on their sergeants to get through the day.

He had his promotion blocked by a general who had argued with him about which harbor had naval mines in it, and my grandfather refused to sail (he was an Army Corps of Engineers landing boat guy) through the minefield.

What made the argument really stupid? My grandfather's unit was the one who had scouted the location of the mines.

He narrowly escaped being court-martialed for refusing to obey a direct order. Luckily, he was able to argue that he had obeyed the order, since he did make the landing-- in a non-mined harbor.

240 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:48:45pm

re: #236 Gus 802

Former military interrogator: Building NYC Islamic center would help fight al Qaeda

I don't think it matters either way. If they don't have a legitimate symbol they'll just make one up or wait until somebody draws a cartoon or steps on a Quran.

241 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:49:17pm

re: #227 Ojoe

We are looking at a long term religious war here. This incident is just part of it; it's like one of those birthday candles that you cannot blow out.

Try and stand aside.

That's the best you can do, I think.

Uh, how do you get a "religious war" out of some bigoted teenagers shooting up a mosque and terrorizing people?

It's a climate of hatred and bigotry deliberately ginned up by malicious people that's responsible for incidents like this. It has nothing to do with a religious war.

242 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:49:46pm

re: #236 Gus 802

Who does Al Qaeda think they are to deprive me of my public displays of irrational and indignant outrage? This is America, damn it! If I stop acting like an idiot, the terrorists win!!111!!!

243 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:49:51pm

re: #237 wrenchwench

I think the whole thing is so poisoned that any action regarding it puts you in one side or another.

Well I'm pessimistic today am I not?

244 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:50:24pm

re: #243 Ojoe

I'd rather be on the side against the bigots and hatemongers.

245 MrSilverDragon  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:51:07pm

re: #212 Cato the Elder

So, is the eco-moonbat still on the loose in Silver Spring, or have they caught him already?

It's still happening. He's still holed up in the Discovery Building.

246 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:51:16pm

re: #241 Charles

I think, in the big picture, this is a thing that goes back centuries & has the momentum of a juggernaut.

247 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:51:27pm

re: #225 DaddyG

I enjoyed the narrative style of the Jeff Shaara books set in the Mexican American war, Civil War, WWI and WWII.

Foryou history buffs, which series is historically accurate yet entertaining like those?

I think Shelby Foote reads well as a Civil War narrative. But note that he is a novelist and not a historian. Therefore his footnotes are poor and his historical accuracy is roughly as good as the historians he used, and arguably a bit dated by now. (His Gettysburg treatment is heavily dependent on _High Tide at Gettysburg_ which I think pales compared to Coddington or the more recent Pfanz treatments of that battle.)

For World War 1 or World War 2 the subject matter and scholarship is immensely broad. I personally like Keegan's _History of the Second World War_ as an overview, but do not claim it's the best on that subject. I guess a lot will depend on what scope and area you prefer.

I've mainly been reading PTO related books at the campaign or operational level. Or simply finding books that closely relate to what I've been wargaming recently (Normandy Landing, US sub campaign in the Pacific, etc.)

248 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:51:27pm

re: #223 Obdicut

Mainly in the advance in Western Europe, post-landing, the pace of it and the strategic objectives chosen. I won't do the authors the disservice of boiling down what they say into a post here.

It is one of the few books I have read that accurately and superbly describes both political and military elements of the war, while never forgetting that in the end there's a guy down there on the ground with a rifle on his hand.

And, if I may say, the whole thing is written in a tone of sad rage which I think is similar to yours.

You may :)

I think my greatest regret in life is that Walden is not possible anymore. There is no place on Earth to go which is truly away from the influence and reach of drooling morons.

I have been thinking about many of my posts, and how they were received.

It is not that I hate people, or that I bear malice towards them. It is that the collective stupidity of so many, has the effect of real malice towards me and all that I care about - and there is no place to run. There is no way to let them realistically be someone else's problem.

We have a growing nazi-movement in America. These people in their banal, shallow stupidity will tear down 200 years of progress over-night. We talk about the equivalence of opinions and the rights of people to express their opinions as facts - and I get that.

I am not arguing against the social contract. But while we talk so high-mindedly, this movement would restrict religious freedoms, judge others harshly based on race, destroy science and culture and very realistically, help to march the entire planet past tipping points.

We talk of democracy.

What sort of democracy can ration food when there simply will not be enough for everyone.

Your and other's repulsion at the idea of restricting voting was based on the very valid points of excesses and unfair restrictions and disenfranchisements of the past.

Those same forces will be in charge when it comes to food rationing.

This time though, there will be no Walden to run to, in order to get away from it.

249 Racer X  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:51:52pm
250 recusancy  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:52:17pm

re: #243 Ojoe

I think the whole thing is so poisoned that any action regarding it puts you in one side or another.

Well I'm pessimistic today am I not?

What??? So you want to stand on the side of hate but are scared of being called a bigot so you decide to take the cowards way out. Is that the Whig's platform?

251 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:52:37pm

re: #249 Racer X

Ride the bike you're with.

252 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:53:18pm

re: #244 Obdicut

I'd rather be on the side against the bigots and hatemongers.


OK

253 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:54:11pm

re: #250 recusancy

I don't want to stand on any side in this thing

254 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:54:17pm

re: #240 Killgore Trout

I don't think it matters either way. If they don't have a legitimate symbol they'll just make one up or wait until somebody draws a cartoon or steps on a Quran.


Now that we've shown our butts over it the symbolic value is lost or dimiished. We blew a beautiful opportunity to prove to the world our values and laws provide for all men to worship or believe according to their own conscience.

255 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:54:48pm

re: #244 Obdicut

I'd rather be on the side against the bigots and hatemongers.


Which bigots and hatemogers. Ours or theirs? /

256 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:54:56pm

re: #241 Charles

Uh, how do you get a "religious war" out of some bigoted teenagers shooting up a mosque and terrorizing people?

It's a climate of hatred and bigotry deliberately ginned up by malicious people that's responsible for incidents like this. It has nothing to with a religious war.

I am not trying to quibble and I see your point. However, it is not clear to me that the Muslims who will get murdered by drooling rednecks (whose heads were filled with images of "saving America" and a dose of angry Christianity) will particularly care about the distinction.

257 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:55:04pm

OK here's my side

Orgainzed religion sux

258 Kragar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:55:49pm

re: #238 Ojoe

IIRC the conspirators had picked him to replace Herr H.

Anyway as a result of the whole affair he was "required" to commit suicide, IIRC

Yes, he was the one they had picked to replace Hitler, because they felt he would have been able to stabilize the fronts and put them into a position to negotiate a surrender.

Hitler gave him the choice of committing suicide and being declared a hero or being brought up on charges of treason, with his wife and children being dragged before a show trial and exectued in front of him before he died.

Rommel chose suicide.

259 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:55:53pm

re: #249 Racer X

Girl's Bike?

Men's bike

Moral: girls ride bikes, men carry them around.

260 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:55:58pm

re: #12 Charles

Oh great. Now there's apparently a libertarian loon who's writing articles about repealing the Civil Rights Act -- and he has the same name as me.

Time to start using a middle initial.

261 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:56:06pm
262 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:56:45pm

re: #248 LudwigVanQuixote

I know, and I do understand. I do feel the same way. The calculus of it all becomes complex; when global warming really takes off, I don't think our political system will survive it. So to what extent is protecting that political system the right thing to do when that very protection will also destroy it?

If I really thought that such restrictions would have a positive effect, I'd support them. I don't. My objection is on practical grounds far more than on ethical grounds. Ethically, I find little reason for preventing mature twelve year olds from voting but allowing immature forty year olds from voting.

I am, while I'm still trying to support my wife, casting about for a way to get a job, do work that is actually in service of stopping AGW. I can't simply go volunteer somewhere, I still need to provide for my wife through med school, but I'd love to have a more positive effect.

If you ever know of anything of the sort, let me know.

At times like this I always remember A River Runs Through It:

We wish to help, oh lord, but how?

263 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:56:45pm

re: #247 oaktree

...what I've been wargaming recently (Normandy Landing, US sub campaign in the Pacific, etc.)

Speaking of which are those great old Avalon Hill war games still in print or is everything electronic these days? I have the sudden urge to play one of those with my kids.

264 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:57:38pm

re: #254 DaddyG

Now that we've shown our butts over it the symbolic value is lost or dimiished. We blew a beautiful opportunity to prove to the world our values and laws provide for all men to worship or believe according to their own conscience.

Yeah, it does display a weakness that so many Americans are "hurt" by a building or a prayer but that cat's out of the bag already.

265 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:58:14pm

re: #261 Gus 802

Ugh. That's not an endorsement of the host website. Just another far-right lunatic site.

266 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:58:43pm

Looks like "seopad" decided to go over to ThinkProgress and act like an idiot:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

267 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:58:50pm

When I first read the headline, I was hoping they'd busted those cocksuckers in Tennessee.

I hope they bust those cocksuckers in Tennessee.

268 recusancy  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:00:14pm

re: #257 Ojoe

OK here's my side

Orgainzed religion sux

Ok here's my side.

Terrorism sux. Whether it's by a couple of rednecks in new york or jihadists in the middle east.

I know it's tough to take a side when terrorism's involved. I wouldn't want you to get involved in that. Better you just step aside. ////

269 webevintage  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:00:28pm

re: #249 Racer X

Girl's Bike?

Men's bike

Just proves women are smarter.
Who wants to ride a bike that could cause you serious pain if came down on that bar?
Does anyone know why "men's" bikes have the nutsack killer bar?

270 Kragar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:00:32pm

re: #263 DaddyG

Speaking of which are those great old Avalon Hill war games still in print or is everything electronic these days? I have the sudden urge to play one of those with my kids.

You can still find them or equivalents at most gaming stores.

272 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:01:19pm

re: #271 Killgore Trout

[Link: meaningfuldistractions.files.wordpress.com...]

Rimshot! /

273 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:01:32pm

re: #233 Killgore Trout

Did they jump through the flaming hoops?

I love it when they jump through the flaming hoops.

274 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:01:48pm

re: #269 webevintage

Just proves women are smarter.
Who wants to ride a bike that could cause you serious pain if came down on that bar?
Does anyone know why "men's" bikes have the nutsack killer bar?

My guess is that it's structural. Men weigh more.

275 webevintage  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:01:58pm

re: #261 Gus 802

Image: obama%20basketball.jpg

Gotta say I admire a man who can shoot hoops better then one who bowls well....

276 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:02:11pm

re: #12 Charles

Oh great. Now there's apparently a libertarian loon who's writing articles about repealing the Civil Rights Act -- and he has the same name as me.

And his opinion is just as valid as someone who is civilized.

Isn't that a cozy thought?

277 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:02:21pm

re: #263 DaddyG

Speaking of which are those great old Avalon Hill war games still in print or is everything electronic these days? I have the sudden urge to play one of those with my kids.

It's still a live niche market. Can still find old AH titles here and there. And arguably there is better stuff available as well since the designs and ideas have been evolving.

278 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:02:40pm

re: #269 webevintage

Just proves women are smarter.
Who wants to ride a bike that could cause you serious pain if came down on that bar?
Does anyone know why "men's" bikes have the nutsack killer bar?

Yes I do. Mens legs tend to be less flexible with time. When mounting a bike with a nut crusher on it, it becomes necessary to bend our leg and swing it over. This is impossible. We look like idiots. We look like idiots, then crush our balls.

Anymore questions?

279 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:04:23pm

re: #274 Killgore Trout

My guess is that it's structural. Men weigh more.

I think it is structural; that design makes the bike more stable and stronger, I think.

There are also bikes that are "unisex" in that they have a bar that is slightly lower than traditional men's bike, but higher than a traditional woman's bike.

280 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:04:29pm

re: #278 Jeff In Ohio

Yes I do. Mens legs tend to be less flexible with time. When mounting a bike with a nut crusher on it, it becomes necessary to bend our leg and swing it over. This is impossible. We look like idiots. We look like idiots, then crush our balls, then we sing soprano.

Honestly? I think it was a marketing ploy from somewhere... Can't hand down a girls bike to a boy and vice versa.

281 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:05:04pm

re: #274 Killgore Trout

My guess is that it's structural. Men weigh more.

I always thought the women's frames were made originally to accomodate skirts.

282 researchok  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:05:14pm

CNN reporting that James Lee Lee has been shot, condition unknown.

He is in custody, still in the building.

283 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:05:20pm

re: #280 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Honestly? I think it was a marketing ploy from somewhere... Can't hand down a girls bike to a boy and vice versa.

WHen it comes to bikes, honesty is not interesting.

284 webevintage  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:05:21pm

re: #280 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Honestly? I think it was a marketing ploy from somewhere... Can't hand down a girls bike to a boy and vice versa.

I bet that is pretty close to the correct answer.

285 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:05:22pm

re: #281 Gus 802

accommodate

286 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:06:47pm

Yep.

Historically, women's bicycle frames had a top tube that connected in the middle of the seat tube instead of the top, resulting in a lower standover height. This was to allow the rider to dismount while wearing a skirt or dress. The design has since been used in utility bikes to facilitate easy mounting and dismounting for both genders, and is also known as a step-through frame. Another style that accomplishes similar results is the mixte.

287 Racer X  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:08:00pm

Who is more macho?

Guy who rides a girls bike but shoots hoops?

Or the guy who looks like a doofus but rides a mens bike?

Or the guy who shoots his lawyer in the face, and the lawyer apologizes for being in the way?

¿Quién es más macho?

288 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:08:21pm

re: #203 webevintage

Dear God.
My son just left to drive himself to work for the first time.

I think I'm going to have a stroke...at least until he gets there.
Someone tell me it gets better after a few days.

It gets better.
Not by much, though.
Sorry.

289 iossarian  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:08:39pm

re: #274 Killgore Trout

My guess is that it's structural. Men weigh more.

Yes, with the crossbar you get more strength in the frame without having to make it heavier. The low bar on women's bikes is a holdover from the olde days. Modern women's bikes designed for performance rather than conformity with past styling are basically just scaled-down men's frames.

290 deranged cat  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:08:49pm

re: #279 reine.de.tout

There are also bikes that are "unisex" in that they have a bar that is slightly lower than traditional men's bike, but higher than a traditional woman's bike.

yup! ive seen a lot of these actually.

291 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:09:00pm

re: #263 DaddyG

Speaking of which are those great old Avalon Hill war games still in print or is everything electronic these days? I have the sudden urge to play one of those with my kids.

Secondary follow-up.

www.boardgamegeek.com

292 webevintage  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:09:07pm

re: #286 Gus 802

Yep.

So basically some bikes are still made gender specific now for marketing reasons.

293 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:09:28pm

re: #280 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Honestly? I think it was a marketing ploy from somewhere... Can't hand down a girls bike to a boy and vice versa.

And honestly, can we talk about the seats? Unless you've had your testicles removed or your 12 years old, it's damn near impossible on a hot day not to crush them on the seat, let alone you fly off the seat and land on the bar.

And no, I'm not wearing spandex, unless we're having sex.

OK, I think I'm done. You can all breathe again.

294 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:09:45pm

re: #290 deranged cat

yup! ive seen a lot of these actually.

Gus mentioned them - "mixte". It's what I've got.

295 webevintage  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:09:47pm

re: #288 reine.de.tout

It gets better.
Not by much, though.
Sorry.

thanks.
He did call to let me know he got there all in one piece.

296 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:09:59pm

re: #288 reine.de.tout

Web? You're looking at it completely wrong.

This is adult emancipation.

297 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:10:25pm

re: #295 webevintage

thanks.
He did call to let me know he got there all in one piece.

How many girls did he stop to pick up on the way?

;)

298 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:10:49pm

re: #292 webevintage

So basically some bikes are still made gender specific now for marketing reasons.

Got me. I know the bike share ones are step throughs. Hard core cyclists use standard frame designs.

299 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:11:05pm

re: #293 Jeff In Ohio

Who's this "we're" your speaking of?

300 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:11:06pm

re: #281 Gus 802

I always thought the women's frames were made originally to accomodate skirts.

That's a good theory.

301 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:12:00pm

re: #248 LudwigVanQuixote

I think my greatest regret in life is that Walden is not possible anymore. There is no place on Earth to go which is truly away from the influence and reach of drooling morons.

Oh, nonsense. If the Unabomber could do it, so can I.

302 webevintage  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:12:01pm

re: #293 Jeff In Ohio

And honestly, can we talk about the seats? Unless you've had your testicles removed or your 12 years old, it's damn near impossible on a hot day not to crush them on the seat, let alone you fly off the seat and land on the bar.

And no, I'm not wearing spandex, unless we're having sex.

OK, I think I'm done. You can all breathe again.

hahahahahaha

When I consider the choices of Presidential bikes I think I'd rather see the President riding a "unisex" or girly bike then one that gets him in the nutsack.

303 kirkspencer  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:12:30pm

re: #269 webevintage

Just proves women are smarter.
Who wants to ride a bike that could cause you serious pain if came down on that bar?
Does anyone know why "men's" bikes have the nutsack killer bar?

Actually, the "why" is why women's bikes do not have the bar. The answer is modesty. They can't keep their legs covered by long skirts if they have to straddle that bar.

The high bar helps form a broad triangle which gives a strong bike. Fairly important in this is that the handlebars and seat remain aligned. The U shape of the girl's bike is weaker. However, since women of earlier years insisted on riding, bicycle manufacturers made bikes that would better protect these wildwomen's modesty. Thus, the U shape for women's bicycles that allowed them to step through and onto the bicycle and pedal without exposing much of the calf, far less anything higher.

304 Kragar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:12:32pm

re: #291 oaktree

Secondary follow-up.

www.boardgamegeek.com

Of course, if you're interested in a real strategy game...

305 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:12:49pm

re: #299 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Not you cream jeans.

306 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:12:53pm

re: #295 webevintage

thanks.
He did call to let me know he got there all in one piece.

Glad to hear it.
And honestly, of course he got there, MOST of 'em do get through those years safely.

Mine's 18. She's wrecked her car 3 times (no injuries, thank goodness!) and mine once. Again, no injuries, but each one was a learning experience. She'll never make those particularl mistakes again (running a stop sign, driving too fast and trying to make a turn, not watching what the car in front of her was doing at a "yield" sign - she assumed they moved on, when they had not and she ran into the back of 'em).

307 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:13:09pm

re: #257 Ojoe

OK here's my side

Orgainzed religion sux

Yet you want us to join a hopeless political party with a silly name?

I'll stick with church.

308 webevintage  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:13:25pm

re: #296 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Web? You're looking at it completely wrong.

This is adult emancipation.

I know....
But he is doing it in my car.

309 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:13:58pm

re: #296 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Web? You're looking at it completely wrong.

This is adult emancipation.

Very true!
But the worrying about 'em never goes away, does it?

310 allegro  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:14:17pm

re: #302 webevintage

When I consider the choices of Presidential bikes I think I'd rather see the President riding a "unisex" or girly bike then one that gets him in the nutsack.

Just how much time do you spend contemplating the Presidential nutsack?

311 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:14:18pm

re: #308 webevintage

I know...
But he is doing it in my car.

GAH!

312 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:14:44pm

re: #308 webevintage

I know...
But he is doing it in my car.

Go buy him a huge, large, tank of a car - like a used Linlcoln, or Ford Crown Vic.

313 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:14:58pm

"Step through" was originally for skirts. Now it's for anyone who'd rather not swing their leg over, although they are usually marketed to women. The bike Obama was riding was the "man's" version. At this link, click on "Pure" and mouseover the models. You will see the real women's version for comparison.

314 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:15:03pm

re: #306 reine.de.tout

Holy shit, 4! I've lived a life of stupidity and danger and been in one that wasn't my fault (back ended at a red light). I must have an angel on my shoulder.

My kids are never driving...NEVER!

315 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:15:09pm

re: #308 webevintage

I know...
But he is doing it in my car.

When he's dating in your car, that sentence is going to take on an entirely new meaning.

316 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:15:19pm

re: #312 reine.de.tout

Go buy him a huge, large, tank of a car - like a used Linlcoln, or Ford Crown Vic.

And then make him pass for the gasoline that goes in it...

317 allegro  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:15:32pm

re: #303 kirkspencer

However, since women of earlier years insisted on riding, bicycle manufacturers made bikes that would better protect these wildwomen's modesty.

I understand they still quite enjoyed the "bumpy rides." :D

318 deranged cat  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:16:02pm

re: #312 reine.de.tout

Go buy him a huge, large, tank of a car - like a used Linlcoln, or Ford Crown Vic.

dont buy him an SUV. the low MPGs are not worth it (coming from the driver of a 1997 4x4 ford explorer)

319 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:16:27pm

PIMF
re: #316 oaktree

And then make him pass pay for the gasoline that goes in it...

320 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:16:58pm

re: #305 Jeff In Ohio

Just checkin'.

321 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:17:03pm

re: #262 Obdicut

I know, and I do understand. I do feel the same way. The calculus of it all becomes complex; when global warming really takes off, I don't think our political system will survive it. So to what extent is protecting that political system the right thing to do when that very protection will also destroy it?

If I really thought that such restrictions would have a positive effect, I'd support them. I don't. My objection is on practical grounds far more than on ethical grounds. Ethically, I find little reason for preventing mature twelve year olds from voting but allowing immature forty year olds from voting.

I am, while I'm still trying to support my wife, casting about for a way to get a job, do work that is actually in service of stopping AGW. I can't simply go volunteer somewhere, I still need to provide for my wife through med school, but I'd love to have a more positive effect.

If you ever know of anything of the sort, let me know.

At times like this I always remember A River Runs Through It:

We wish to help, oh lord, but how?

Well this is a great set of points.

We all must do what we can.

So let's be clear, I was never saying that we should implement any restrictions overnight. To be honest, this started by me simply lamenting the influence of idiots on society and the effect of democracy to create a lowest common denominator.

In this case that Lowest common denominator is lethal.

The real answer comes from a paradigm shift that we will not accomplish anytime soon.

I think, my basic long term solution can be boiled down into the premise that rather than thinking about rights, we should think about duties and obligations.

It is not that you have the right to this or that freedom, but the duty to see that others have it. It is not that you have the right to voice an opinion, but the duty to get your facts straight and the humility to weigh evidence that might contradict your narrative.

By talking of rights all the time, we have rather than created mobile and educated, capable people, created a society of whiny narcissists with entitlement complexes. Rather than aspiring to be great, we aspire as a nation to tear great people down to the level of the masses - because that way, the masses can feel better about their own miserable lack of talent or contributions.

In some sense my notions of a service requirement and an education requirement address exactly that issue. People who gave a damn enough to serve others voluntarily get the notion of duty to others. They are more resistant to an every-man for himself attitude - it is not perfect, but, it is some sort of an inoculation. Educated people understand that they are not experts in everything, and that no indeed, sometimes, the best you can do is figure out which experts are the most trustworthy.

Imagine a political debate that was based on facts rather than sound bites, because an educated electorate demanded such?

But, we do not have the time to implement such a radical social paradigm shift. too many of the old inequities and old conceits have too much inertia.

So what we can do, as always, is be educated and scream like hell. We are not yet committed to the sort of total collapse that we are marching towards. However, once we cross certain tipping points, it is all over. It's like Angry Bob from Hardware, "As to the good news, there is no fucking good news."

This ultimately comes down to the fact that while all individual actions help, nothing can replace strong leadership. Too many things which are too large have to change in order to avoid that fate.

We are losing that battle and there is a clock ticking.

322 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:17:15pm

re: #314 Jeff In Ohio

Holy shit, 4! I've lived a life of stupidity and danger and been in one that wasn't my fault (back ended at a red light). I must have an angel on my shoulder.

My kids are never driving...NEVER!

She's a MUCH better driver these days.
Much better.
She had to pay the deductible for getting her car fixed, each time. That's $1500, about what she makes in an entire summer of working. She got it.

323 deranged cat  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:17:35pm

whoah holy crap.. headline changed to "Gunman shot by Police"
[Link: www.tbd.com...]

324 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:18:05pm

re: #301 Cato the Elder

Oh, nonsense. If the Unabomber could do it, so can I.

That is not even funny.

325 TedStriker  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:18:32pm

re: #191 LudwigVanQuixote

Now MacArthur is the exact opposite of Patton. If there was ever a prima-donna with his eyes on his own glory first - from a political perspective - it was MacArthur.

And thank God Truman fired him.

Would it be wrong to say that the wrong general died after the end of the war (Patton)?

///somewhat

326 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:19:05pm

re: #25 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

In other news,

I took my Security + certification exam today.

Got 92%.

I am now a fully certified IT Security technician.

Take THAT, Bobby Tables.

327 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:19:50pm

re: #323 deranged cat

Discovery Channel hostage situation: Gunman, believed to be James Jay Lee, shot by police; hostages safe


Good news.

328 deranged cat  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:19:53pm

Update on the Discovery Building situation..

UPDATE 5:00 PM: Police shot the suspect. His condition is not known. The three hostages are safe.

Officers shot the suspect at 4:48 p.m., Chief Tom Manger said. The gunman's condition was not immediately known. He hasn't been removed from the building.

Manger said the gunman had a device or devices strapped to his body, and the "device appeared to go off," Manger said.

329 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:19:55pm

re: #279 reine.de.tout

"Mixte" frames are cool, they are the "birdcage Maserati" of bike frames. I have one, it's an Austro Diamler from the 1970s.

330 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:20:32pm

re: #329 Ojoe

"Mixte" frames are cool, they are the "birdcage Maserati" of bike frames. I have one, it's an Austro Diamler from the 1970s.

I always liked the mixte design.

331 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:21:20pm

re: #268 recusancy

Religion is what is generating the terrorism.

332 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:21:23pm

re: #321 LudwigVanQuixote

The Discovery Channel hostage taker appears to be looking like a "save the planet" guy. That may cause some problems for the cause.

333 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:21:31pm

re: #325 talon_262

Would it be wrong to say that the wrong general died after the end of the war (Patton)?

///somewhat

Arguably it was a good thing for Patton to go at that time. He was a wartime general. Antiquated for peace time, and his actions handling occupation duties were frowned upon since he was more interested in providing services than the demanded de-Nazification.

334 webevintage  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:21:45pm

re: #306 reine.de.tout

Glad to hear it.
And honestly, of course he got there, MOST of 'em do get through those years safely.

Mine's 18. She's wrecked her car 3 times (no injuries, thank goodness!) and mine once. Again, no injuries, but each one was a learning experience. She'll never make those particularl mistakes again (running a stop sign, driving too fast and trying to make a turn, not watching what the car in front of her was doing at a "yield" sign - she assumed they moved on, when they had not and she ran into the back of 'em).

I once went though a left turn at around midnight with wet pavement which cause me to spin, but ended up going almost in the correct direction but shaken, As I got going a car came over the hill and hit me.
THEN after the police get there and the cars are on the side of the road some other driver came flying over the hill and hit my stopped car and pushed it down into a ditch. No one knew for a few min where my mother's car had gone.
No one hurt.

I also once had one of those big 7-11 cups in the cup holder and as I turned the corner into my neighborhood it fell and I (i kid you not) leaned down without putting my foot on the break and stopping. The car kept going, i picked up the cup and came back upright as a wheel went over the crub and I was heading into a tree trunk. I hit the brake, no crash but I never told my parents.

I hope he takes after his father.

335 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:21:50pm

Chris Matthews is doing a segment titled "Republicans Embrace Gay Marriage."

Except that they're really not.

336 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:23:16pm
337 recusancy  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:24:44pm

re: #331 Ojoe

Religion is what is generating the terrorism.

Then is it safe to say that when Islamic terrorism happens you feel it's best not to pick a side?

338 Kragar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:24:51pm

re: #331 Ojoe

Religion is what is generating the terrorism.

Religion is what is being used as an excuse for terrorism.

339 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:25:02pm

Off topic but this doesn't look good.


[Link: www.wunderground.com...]

re: #306 reine.de.tout

I have had 5 accidents of varying severity. 2 fender benders, one of which caused damage, one incident with someone running into my door, slammed into a curb once, and one time, a guy guy parked in the parking lot behind my car while I backing out of the spot. Behind me as in the little road going through the parking lot.

340 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:26:07pm

re: #332 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The Discovery Channel hostage taker appears to be looking like a "save the planet" guy. That may cause some problems for the cause.

Ohh, I am sure it will resonate amongst the wingnuts for a spell.

Fox viewers are already lost to the cause. There is no amount of fact or evidence that one can beat them over the head with. I cut my losses with them some time ago. You can not reason with fools who reject reason itself.

As far as normal people are concerned, some would be eco-terrorist loon, who got taken out, and who didn't kill anyone, will be forgotten overnight.

Besides, his insane rants seemed to be more about over-population than about AGW anyway.

341 webevintage  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:26:27pm

re: #312 reine.de.tout

Go buy him a huge, large, tank of a car - like a used Linlcoln, or Ford Crown Vic.

Yep, that or a big truck.
But he has to get it himself (we might help out a bit) he has to pay for gas and his own insurance which is around $75 a month.

342 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:27:33pm

Aren't there some in the anti-immigration debate who make the overpopulation argument their talking point. Thinking especially about John Tanton and FAIR here.

343 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:27:38pm

re: #332 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The Discovery Channel hostage taker appears to be looking like a "save the planet" guy. That may cause some problems for the cause.

Meh. I doubt it. The problems will only come from the existing doubters who will generalize and ridicule environmental movements with this lunatic. Rational people won't see any similarity between this man and say a group like Sierra Club.

344 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:28:46pm

re: #324 LudwigVanQuixote

That is not even funny.

Your mileage, of course, may vary.

I predict the Discovery Channel bomber or would-be bomber or whatever he turns out to be will be the first (or rather, the latest) of many.

Hysteria has that effect, sadly.

345 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:29:20pm

Well, if this triggers a screed to excise any and all things "Lee" from the US the SCV might get a little upset.

//

346 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:29:35pm

I see a bigger problem with environmentalism as a result of groups like ELF.

347 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:30:09pm

re: #342 HappyWarrior

Aren't there some in the anti-immigration debate who make the overpopulation argument their talking point. Thinking especially about John Tanton and FAIR here.

Well, not exactly. They directly quoted Hitler's Nuremberg rally, with the thought that "to populate is to control." They are not concerned with over population as much as with a larger brown population than a lily white one.

These really are Nazis. I really wish that people would get this straight.

348 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:30:15pm

From the WaPo article about Lee:
"In his manifesto, Lee also demands that the Discovery Channel stop broadcasting "all programs promoting war" and help find ways to stop "ALL immigration pollution and the anchor baby filth that follows that," as well as "solutions for Global Warming, Automotive pollution, International Trade, factory pollution, and the whole blasted human economy."
Anchor baby filth eh

349 cliffster  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:30:21pm

A man and his dog were walking along a road. The man was enjoying the scenery, when it suddenly occurred to him that he was dead. He remembered dying, and that the dog walking beside him had been dead for years. He wondered where the road was leading them. After a while, they came to a high, white stone wall along one side of the road. It looked like fine marble. At the top of a long hill, it was broken by a tall arch that glowed in the sunlight. When he was standing before it, he saw a magnificent gate in the arch that looked like mother-of-pearl, and the street that led to the gate looked like pure gold. He and the dog walked toward the gate, and as he got closer, he saw a man at a desk to one side. When he was close enough, he called out, 'Excuse me, where are we?'
'This is Heaven, sir,' the man answered.
'Wow! Would you happen to have some water?' the man asked.
'Of course, sir. Come right in, and I'll have some ice water brought right up.'
The man gestured, and the gate began to open. 'Can my friend,' gesturing toward his dog, 'come in, too?' the traveler asked.
'I'm sorry, sir, but we don't accept pets.'
The man thought a moment and then turned back toward the road and continued the way he had been going with his dog.

After another long walk, and at the top of another long hill, he came to a dirt road leading through a farm gate that looked as if it had never been closed. There was no fence. As he approached the gate, he saw a man inside, leaning against a tree and reading a book ...
'Excuse me!' he called to the man. 'Do you have any water?'
'Yeah, sure, there's a pump over there, come on in.'
'How about my friend here?' the traveler gestured to the dog.
'There should be a bowl by the pump,' said the man.
They went through the gate, and sure enough, there was an old-fashioned hand pump with a bowl beside it.The traveler filled the water bowl and took a long drink himself, then he gave some to the dog.When they were full, he and the dog walked back toward the man who was standing by the tree.
'What do you call this place?' the traveler asked.
'This is Heaven,' he answered.
'Well, that's confusing,' the traveler said.'The man down the road said that was Heaven, too.'
'Oh, you mean the place with the gold street and pearly gates? Nope. That's hell.'
'Doesn't it make you mad for them to use your name like that?'
'No, we're just happy that they screen out the folks who would leave their best friends behind.'

350 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:30:57pm

re: #347 LudwigVanQuixote

Well, not exactly. They directly quoted Hitler's Nuremberg rally, with the thought that "to populate is to control." They are not concerned with over population as much as with a larger brown population than a lily white one.

These really are Nazis. I really wish that people would get this straight.

Jeez knew they were nuts man but didn't know they were Nazi nuts.

351 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:31:23pm

re: #344 Cato the Elder

Your mileage, of course, may vary.

I predict the Discovery Channel bomber or would-be bomber or whatever he turns out to be will be the first (or rather, the latest) of many.

Hysteria has that effect, sadly.

I'll bet that for every one like him, there will be dozens, if not hundreds, of hate-crimes from the wingnuts. They have a major network riling them up 24/7.

352 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:31:26pm

re: #348 HappyWarrior

From the WaPo article about Lee:
"In his manifesto, Lee also demands that the Discovery Channel stop broadcasting "all programs promoting war" and help find ways to stop "ALL immigration pollution and the anchor baby filth that follows that," as well as "solutions for Global Warming, Automotive pollution, International Trade, factory pollution, and the whole blasted human economy."
Anchor baby filth eh

There you. Dude's a serious loony.

353 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:31:47pm

re: #352 Gus 802

There you go. Dude's a serious loony.

PIMF Again.

354 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:32:31pm

re: #352 Gus 802

There you. Dude's a serious loony.

Mmm hmm. From what I gathered reading that WaPo article, I'd say he's a huge anti globalist.

355 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:33:11pm

re: #348 HappyWarrior

From the WaPo article about Lee:
"In his manifesto, Lee also demands that the Discovery Channel stop broadcasting "all programs promoting war" and help find ways to stop "ALL immigration pollution and the anchor baby filth that follows that," as well as "solutions for Global Warming, Automotive pollution, International Trade, factory pollution, and the whole blasted human economy."
Anchor baby filth eh

Ahhh some lunacy for everyone!

He quotes the right wing anchor baby argument while adding filth, as well as eco terrorism. This is truly a one size fits all whackadoodle.

356 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:33:14pm

re: #346 Gus 802

I see a bigger problem with environmentalism as a result of groups like ELF.

Not to mention groups like ELO.

357 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:34:06pm

re: #354 HappyWarrior

Mmm hmm. From what I gathered reading that WaPo article, I'd say he's a huge anti globalist.

So I suppose that means he's a libertarian of sorts. Perhaps more of the LaRouche variety than the Ron Paul sort.

358 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:35:10pm

re: #357 LudwigVanQuixote

So I suppose that means he's a libertarian of sorts. Perhaps more of the LaRouche variety than the Ron Paul sort.

Something like that I suppose. He really does seem goddamn nuts though.

359 RadicalModerate  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:35:18pm

I know I'm probably going to burn in hell for this, but a very small part of me wished that Mr. Lee had a beef with the Discovery Institute instead of the Discovery Channel.

360 Racer X  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:35:40pm

re: #354 HappyWarrior

Mmm hmm. From what I gathered reading that WaPo article, I'd say he's a huge anti globalist.

*thinking real hard*

How can we spin this onto Glenn Beck?

361 the yankee  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:36:41pm

I have never heard of a Sufi terrorist nor a Sikh one. And in the past few days both of them have gotten attacked, just because the atmosphere makes people think that it is ok to attack people that look muslim. It just goes to show that not only Muslims are at danger but groups that look like Muslims are at danger too ironically I would bet that the average racist couldn't tell the difference between an orthodox jew or a hindu and a muslim. Nor would they care too.

362 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:36:50pm

re: #348 HappyWarrior

From the WaPo article about Lee:
"In his manifesto, Lee also demands that the Discovery Channel stop broadcasting "all programs promoting war" and help find ways to stop "ALL immigration pollution and the anchor baby filth that follows that," as well as "solutions for Global Warming, Automotive pollution, International Trade, factory pollution, and the whole blasted human economy."
Anchor baby filth eh

Here's that complete section:

5. Immigration: Programs must be developed to find solutions to stopping ALL immigration pollution and the anchor baby filth that follows that. Find solutions to stopping it. Call for people in the world to develop solutions to stop it completely and permanently. Find solutions FOR these countries so they stop sending their breeding populations to the US and the world to seek jobs and therefore breed more unwanted pollution babies. FIND SOLUTIONS FOR THEM TO STOP THEIR HUMAN GROWTH AND THE EXPORTATION OF THAT DISGUSTING FILTH! (The first world is feeding the population growth of the Third World and those human families are going to where the food is! They must stop procreating new humans looking for nonexistant jobs!)

363 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:37:32pm

re: #358 HappyWarrior

Something like that I suppose. He really does seem goddamn nuts though.

No debate on that my friend.

It's just that if we are classifying nuts, this one, seems not to fall neatly into any particular slot.

364 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:38:13pm

re: #362 Gus 802

Here's that complete section:

5. Immigration: Programs must be developed to find solutions to stopping ALL immigration pollution and the anchor baby filth that follows that. Find solutions to stopping it. Call for people in the world to develop solutions to stop it completely and permanently. Find solutions FOR these countries so they stop sending their breeding populations to the US and the world to seek jobs and therefore breed more unwanted pollution babies. FIND SOLUTIONS FOR THEM TO STOP THEIR HUMAN GROWTH AND THE EXPORTATION OF THAT DISGUSTING FILTH! (The first world is feeding the population growth of the Third World and those human families are going to where the food is! They must stop procreating new humans looking for nonexistant jobs!)

Was this guy from Arizona?

365 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:38:14pm

re: #341 webevintage

Yep, that or a big truck.
But he has to get it himself (we might help out a bit) he has to pay for gas and his own insurance which is around $75 a month.

Trucks are light in the back - sometimes hard to control. He'll need to practice in it before he drives it.

366 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:38:18pm

Right about now the Discovery Channel people are wondering how they ever became a freak magnet.

367 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:38:31pm

re: #360 Racer X

*thinking real hard*

How can we spin this onto Glenn Beck?

I don't know. I don't keep a chalkboard in my apartment :).

368 Racer X  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:38:35pm

James Jay Lee is reported as dead.

buh-bye now!

369 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:38:39pm

Interesting discussion.

CD - Rommel was very nationalistic and fell hard for the cult of personality. He was still very intent on defeating the allies when injured. "Patton, Montgomery, Rommel: Masters of War" by Terry Brighton goes into this quite well.

I've requested "A War To Be Won" from the library. We'll see, but I'd argue that Bradley's biggest problem was not being as good at PR as Patton was. As for The Slap, it did keep Patton out of the disaster that was the Italy campaign. Had he gotten bogged down there it wouldn't have been pretty. See "The Day of Battle" by Rick Atkinson fro more there.

370 kirkspencer  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:39:17pm

re: #303 kirkspencer

My wife just slapped me on the back of the head for this one. The low bar was not really for modesty. It was to make it easier for a woman wearing skirts over her bloomers to get on safely.

It turns out the bicycle has a long and positive history in the women's liberation / suffragette movement that began when the safety bike was created.

Mea culpa.

371 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:39:18pm

re: #361 the yankee

I have never heard of a Sufi terrorist nor a Sikh one. And in the past few days both of them have gotten attacked, just because the atmosphere makes people think that it is ok to attack people that look muslim. It just goes to show that not only Muslims are at danger but groups that look like Muslims are at danger too ironically I would bet that the average racist couldn't tell the difference between an orthodox jew or a hindu and a muslim. Nor would they care too.

Well of course not. Blind rage is blind.

This was an excellent post.

372 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:39:24pm

You know I just realized I was actually very near the Discovery Building back in April since I was visiting a friend who lives up there.

373 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:40:17pm

re: #362 Gus 802

That has to be one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen. He doesn't even see those people as human. This man is a sociopath on top of being a nutcase.

374 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:40:20pm

Develop shows that will correct and dismantle the dangerous US world economy. Find solutions for their disasterous Ponzi-Casino economy before they take the world to another nuclear war!!11ty

Eleventy

375 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:40:37pm

re: #369 wlewisiii

Interesting discussion.

CD - Rommel was very nationalistic and fell hard for the cult of personality. He was still very intent on defeating the allies when injured. "Patton, Montgomery, Rommel: Masters of War" by Terry Brighton goes into this quite well.

I've requested "A War To Be Won" from the library. We'll see, but I'd argue that Bradley's biggest problem was not being as good at PR as Patton was. As for The Slap, it did keep Patton out of the disaster that was the Italy campaign. Had he gotten bogged down there it wouldn't have been pretty. See "The Day of Battle" by Rick Atkinson fro more there.

I've read the two Atkinson books and would recommend them.

376 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:40:46pm

re: #369 wlewisiii

I hope you enjoy the book. It reserves most of its anger not for individual mistakes, but for group ones, like the Repple-Depple (replacement depot) system.

377 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:40:49pm

re: #368 Racer X

James Jay Lee is reported as dead.

buh-bye now!

Is he?
Last report I heard, he was injured.

378 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:41:02pm

This guy is plainly a sentimental eco-pyschjob who got pushed over the edge by reading "Ishmael" and watching Al Gore. There are plenty of left-wing nutblogs that hate humans and want to save the earth for all living creatures but us. Like the froggies.

And yet we're going to spin him as just another generic nut?

Moonbat!

379 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:41:06pm

re: #373 ProLifeLiberal

That has to be one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen. He doesn't even see those people as human. This man is a sociopath on top of being a nutcase.

I believe he's in rigor mortis now.

380 the yankee  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:41:32pm

re: #372 HappyWarrior

I remember that town simply because the Mormons build a pretty cool looking church that i think you can see from the high near that town. I am not religious but the mormons have exactly taste in building I have to say.

381 deranged cat  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:41:42pm

re: #368 Racer X

James Jay Lee is reported as dead.

buh-bye now!

SILVER SPRING, Md. — Police shot and killed a gunman who held three hostages for several hours Wednesday at the Discovery Communications building in Silver Spring, Md., authorities said. They said the hostages were safe.

At least one explosive device went off when he was shot, and other explosive devices could still be in the building in Montgomery County in suburban Washington, D.C., they said. It was not clear whether there was any damage.

Montgomery County police Chief Thomas Manger said no one was believed to have been injured beyond the gunman, whose condition he said was unknown. Other law enforcement authorities told NBC News that the gunman was dead.

382 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:41:58pm

re: #373 ProLifeLiberal

That has to be one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen. He doesn't even see those people as human. This man is a sociopath on top of being a nutcase.

How is that any different from the Beck rally types who want to kill all Muslims?

383 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:42:03pm

re: #348 HappyWarrior

From the WaPo article about Lee:
"In his manifesto, Lee also demands that the Discovery Channel stop broadcasting "all programs promoting war" and help find ways to stop "ALL immigration pollution and the anchor baby filth that follows that," as well as "solutions for Global Warming, Automotive pollution, International Trade, factory pollution, and the whole blasted human economy."
Anchor baby filth eh

"Anchor baby" isn't exactly your typical left wing phrase.

384 Racer X  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:42:05pm

re: #377 reine.de.tout

Is he?
Last report I heard, he was injured.

Dead

Evolution in motion.

385 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:42:13pm

re: #378 Cato the Elder

This guy is plainly a sentimental eco-pyschjob who got pushed over the edge by reading "Ishmael" and watching Al Gore. There are plenty of left-wing nutblogs that hate humans and want to save the earth for all living creatures but us. Like the froggies.

And yet we're going to spin him as just another generic nut?

Moonbat!

Come on Cato. There are moonbats and there are, well, insane moonbats. It's like wingnuts. Not all wingnuts are insane in my opinion.

386 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:42:36pm

re: #380 the yankee

I remember that town simply because the Mormons build a pretty cool looking church that i think you can see from the high near that town. I am not religious but the mormons have exactly taste in building I have to say.

Yeah I pass by that building whenever I drive up to Baltimore for Orioles games. Place reminds me of the Magic Kingdom from Disney World. It's an impressive building I agree.

387 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:43:36pm

re: #383 Charles

"Anchor baby" isn't exactly your typical left wing phrase.

For sure but I'm sure he'll be made in to a left wing nut by some simply because of his viewing of the Gore documentary.

388 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:43:56pm

re: #373 ProLifeLiberal

That has to be one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen. He doesn't even see those people as human. This man is a sociopath on top of being a nutcase.

It's all here:

[Link: savetheplanetprotest.com...]

389 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:44:19pm

re: #378 Cato the Elder

Only someone who doesn't understand evolution or biology thinks that you can actually save a species.

In the short-term, maybe.

I think if anything, he was keying off of Malthus more than anything else, and Malthus is of no particular political point of view.

Not that this jerk actually understood Malthus, of course.

390 the yankee  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:44:34pm

re: #386 HappyWarrior

Yeah I pass by that building whenever I drive up to Baltimore for Orioles games. Place reminds me of the Magic Kingdom from Disney World. It's an impressive building I agree.


Hmm i think it reminded me of Star Wars ;) I guess I am a bit more childish/geeky then you then you.

391 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:45:24pm

re: #389 Obdicut

Only someone who doesn't understand evolution or biology thinks that you can actually save a species.

In the short-term, maybe.

I think if anything, he was keying off of Malthus more than anything else, and Malthus is of no particular political point of view.

Not that this jerk actually understood Malthus, of course.

The next question is whether the dolphins, or the mice, put him up to it. Or the neighbor's dog.

///

392 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:45:29pm

Interesting bit of related news but according to a lot of stuff I'm seeing on goggle news apparently illegal immigration has dropped dramatically. Damn that Obama. He's making all the illegals, legal through his Muslim Marxist Nazi magic. Which begs the question how can you call a guy who is pro immigration a Nazi?

393 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:45:33pm

re: #385 Gus 802

Come on Cato. There are moonbats and there are, well, insane moonbats. It's like wingnuts. Not all wingnuts are insane in my opinion.

Did I say that? No, I didn't.

Moonbat is moonbat
and wingnut is wingnut,
though often the twain do meet.
Yet moonbats are moonbats
and wingnuts still wingnuts.
You can tell
by the smell
of the shite
they excrete.

Copyright © 2010 Cato the Elder

394 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:45:51pm

re: #378 Cato the Elder

This guy is plainly a sentimental eco-pyschjob who got pushed over the edge by reading "Ishmael" and watching Al Gore. There are plenty of left-wing nutblogs that hate humans and want to save the earth for all living creatures but us. Like the froggies.

And yet we're going to spin him as just another generic nut?

Moonbat!

Cato... He seems to have a rather anti-immigrant bent to his writing as well.

I don't think he falls so neatly into the left wing nut variety as some might like.

However, let's say you are dead on.

I have to ask, so what?

How is getting riled about his flavor of nuttiness any different than the endless times we have seen mass movements of wingnuts here defended anemically by finding one or two left wing assholes?

This guy does not have Fox News riling him up 24/7. The issue is one of the singular insane delusions of the individual, rather than promoted mass delusion made respectable in a large group. Which is more dangerous?

395 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:45:59pm

re: #393 Cato the Elder

Did I say that? No, I didn't.

Moonbat is moonbat
and wingnut is wingnut,
though often the twain do meet.
Yet moonbats are moonbats
and wingnuts still wingnuts.
You can tell
by the smell
of the shite
they excrete.

Copyright © 2010 Cato the Elder

OK

396 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:46:22pm

re: #389 Obdicut

Only someone who doesn't understand evolution or biology thinks that you can actually save a species.

In the short-term, maybe.

I think if anything, he was keying off of Malthus more than anything else, and Malthus is of no particular political point of view.

Not that this jerk actually understood Malthus, of course.

He was a Malthusiast!

397 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:47:11pm

re: #349 cliffster

Bury me under my dog.

398 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:47:39pm

I believe that extreme ideology is rarely the actual cause of the violence committed in its name. It is the other way around: Disturbed people invent extremism to rationalize violent impulses that really have no rational cause.

With modern methods of propaganda, it is possible for people with a common delusion to band together and share their crazy rationalizations, creating extremist movements, terrorist gangs, and cultic religions among other less than rational phenomena.
This creates commercial opportunities for people like Alex Jones, creating a feedback effect in the dissemination of craziness.

399 Racer X  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:47:51pm

This planet, and everyone sitting on it, is in a constant state of evolution. There is nothing you can do to stop that.

Some may yearn for an environment that is more like it was 100 years ago; others want a society much like America was a few decades ago.

Neither is going to happen.

400 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:48:01pm

re: #388 Gus 802

I've learned that I have anger control issues. I'll just go off of the quotes I'm hearing off of the blogs and news, because me actually reading it could make me destructively angry. Beck's followers make me just as angry, but I haven't able to post on that because of adjustment to school schedule.

401 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:48:34pm

re: #391 oaktree

The next question is whether the dolphins, or the mice, put him up to it. Or the neighbor's dog.

///

You know full well that the dolphins don't want anything to do with it and will leave. The mice on the other hand run the world.

402 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:48:49pm

re: #376 Obdicut

I hope you enjoy the book. It reserves most of its anger not for individual mistakes, but for group ones, like the Repple-Depple (replacement depot) system.

That would be appropriate. Of course it had an unintended side effect. When Ike was forced into using black replacements in white units, the Army didn't fall apart and gave Truman a positive example going into desegregation.

403 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:48:52pm

re: #396 Cato the Elder

He was a Malthusiast!

A MisMalthusiast.

404 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:49:16pm

re: #257 Ojoe

OK here's my side

Orgainzed religion sux


Disorganized Religion is kind of fun if you can stand the volunteers.

405 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:50:00pm

re: #401 LudwigVanQuixote

You know full well that the dolphins don't want anything to do with it and will leave. The mice on the other hand run the world.

From a research lab?

406 Racer X  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:50:01pm

re: #393 Cato the Elder

Did I say that? No, I didn't.

Moonbat is moonbat
and wingnut is wingnut,
though often the twain do meet.
Yet moonbats are moonbats
and wingnuts still wingnuts.
You can tell
by the smell
of the shite
they excrete.

Copyright © 2010 Cato the Elder

When the two ideologies converge, do they turn into a Moonbutt™?

407 researchok  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:50:02pm

re: #352 Gus 802

There you. Dude's a serious loony.

On the looney medal podium.

408 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:50:14pm

Antidisestablishmalthusianism!

409 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:51:26pm

re: #380 the yankee

I remember that town simply because the Mormons build a pretty cool looking church that i think you can see from the high near that town. I am not religious but the mormons have exactly taste in building I have to say.

The Mormon Church you are referring to - near Connecticut Avenue bears a strong resemblance to the Emerald City.

There used to be an awesome bit of graffiti on a bridge that the Church is directly visible and centered over when viewed from the beltway.

It said Surrender Dorothy!

410 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:51:58pm

re: #405 oaktree

From a research lab?

With brilliant revers conditioning experiments no less.

411 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:52:15pm

re: #409 LudwigVanQuixote

There was a band with the name "Surrender Dorothy".

I thought that was a great band name.

412 Gus  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:52:29pm

re: #398 Shiplord Kirel

I believe that extreme ideology is rarely the actual cause of the violence committed in its name. It is the other way around: Disturbed people invent extremism to rationalize violent impulses that really have no rational cause.

With modern methods of propaganda, it is possible for people with a common delusion to band together and share their crazy rationalizations, creating extremist movements, terrorist gangs, and cultic religions among other less than rational phenomena.
This creates commercial opportunities for people like Alex Jones, creating a feedback effect in the dissemination of craziness.

With so many ideologies around and pathologies one wonders if we're going to be seeing more forms of micro-terrorism.

413 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:53:17pm

re: #409 LudwigVanQuixote

The Mormon Church you are referring to - near Connecticut Avenue bears a strong resemblance to the Emerald City.

There used to be an awesome bit of graffiti on a bridge that the Church is directly visible and centered over when viewed from the beltway.

It said Surrender Dorothy!

Hahaha I remember the Surrender Dorothy graffiti spray paint. That's what it was. It wasn't the Magic Kingdom but the Emerald City that it reminds me of.

414 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:53:58pm

re: #408 Gus 802

I'd like to note, that since Malthus is probably going to get smeared all over the place, that he was a great, great thinker. He was not some crazy dude who wanted to kill everyone because humans are eebil. He simply saw that overpopulation will remain a constant problem, and felt that much human suffering comes from it.

He is also one of the original people who thought that private charity was much better than government welfare.

415 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:54:05pm

re: #412 Gus 802

With so many ideologies around and pathologies one wonders if we're going to be seeing more forms of micro-terrorism.

Maybe simply notice it more. It's probably an existing bit of the human psyche. And something that has been taken advantage of on occasion. Berserkers for example.

416 researchok  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:54:11pm

re: #394 LudwigVanQuixote

Cato... He seems to have a rather anti-immigrant bent to his writing as well.

I don't think he falls so neatly into the left wing nut variety as some might like.

However, let's say you are dead on.

I have to ask, so what?

How is getting riled about his flavor of nuttiness any different than the endless times we have seen mass movements of wingnuts here defended anemically by finding one or two left wing assholes?

This guy does not have Fox News riling him up 24/7. The issue is one of the singular insane delusions of the individual, rather than promoted mass delusion made respectable in a large group. Which is more dangerous?

The guy was nuts and he was a criminal. I could care less about his politics.

Making an issue of his politics, in my opinion, is absurd. First and foremost, he was a sick bastard. His politics and leanings are meaningless.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

417 RadicalModerate  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:54:35pm

OT but definitely relevant:

Obama opens Mideast talks: Attacks 'won't stop us'

Here's to hoping that President Obama has better luck fostering a lasting Israel/Palestine peace agreement than the past half dozen or so Presidents have been able to achieve. Specifically naming Hamas as a terroristic group interested in destabilization is a good start.

"There are going to be extremists and rejectionists who, rather than seeking peace, are going to be seeking destruction," he said. "The United States is going to be unwavering in its support of Israel's security. And we are going to push back against these kinds of terrorist attacks. And so the message should go out to Hamas and everyone else who is taking credit for these heinous crimes that this is not going to stop us."

418 Racer X  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:54:39pm

re: #412 Gus 802

With so many ideologies around and pathologies one wonders if we're going to be seeing more forms of micro-terrorism.

Ding ding ding ding!

Really sad but true. Every deranged moroon with a gripe can now inflict terror on many innocents.

419 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:54:45pm

Here's what appears to be the guys "manifesto". It appears to be his, but I don't know if that's been confirmed.

From that document, his #5 on immigration:

5. Immigration: Programs must be developed to find solutions to stopping ALL immigration pollution and the anchor baby filth that follows that. Find solutions to stopping it. Call for people in the world to develop solutions to stop it completely and permanently. Find solutions FOR these countries so they stop sending their breeding populations to the US and the world to seek jobs and therefore breed more unwanted pollution babies. FIND SOLUTIONS FOR THEM TO STOP THEIR HUMAN GROWTH AND THE EXPORTATION OF THAT DISGUSTING FILTH! (The first world is feeding the population growth of the Third World and those human families are going to where the food is! They must stop procreating new humans looking for nonexistant jobs!)
420 Kragar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:56:09pm

Sarah Palin the Sound and the Fury

Even as Sarah Palin’s public voice grows louder, she has become increasingly secretive, walling herself off from old friends and associates, and attempting to enforce silence from those around her. Following the former Alaska governor’s road show, the author delves into the surreal new world Palin now inhabits—a place of fear, anger, and illusion, which has swallowed up the engaging, small-town hockey mom and her family—and the sadness she has left in her wake.

421 deranged cat  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:56:14pm

hehehe.. this makes my day.
David Cross on Conservatives

Cross hits it right on the head. teabaggers are the first to yell loudly about everything, and the first to yell about being criticized about anything.

422 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:56:33pm

re: #412 Gus 802

With so many ideologies around and pathologies one wonders if we're going to be seeing more forms of micro-terrorism.

I think that's likely. We may see more acts of terror committed by people who are frustrated that their particular set of delusions has failed to attract a larger audience. That was certainly the case with the late Mr. Lee.

423 researchok  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:57:07pm

re: #419 reine.de.tout

Here's what appears to be the guys "manifesto". It appears to be his, but I don't know if that's been confirmed.

From that document, his #5 on immigration:

Guy was a nut job. His 'manifesto' are the ravings of a lunatic. As I noted above, his politics are irrelevant. They are merely a delivery vehicle for his insanity.

424 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:57:18pm

re: #419 reine.de.tout

Here's what appears to be the guys "manifesto". It appears to be his, but I don't know if that's been confirmed.

From that document, his #5 on immigration:

He's got several items having to do with population:

. Saving the Planet means saving what's left of the non-human Wildlife by decreasing the Human population. That means stopping the human race from breeding any more disgusting human babies! You're the media, you can reach enough people. It's your resposibility because you reach so many minds!!!
10. Stop all shows glorifying human birthing on all your channels and on TLC. Stop Future Weapons shows or replace the dialogue condemning the people behind these developments so that the shows become exposes rather than advertisements of Arms sales and development!
. . .
11. You're also going to find solutions for unemployment and housing. All these unemployed people makes me think the US is headed toward more war.

Humans are the most destructive, filthy, pollutive creatures around and are wrecking what's left of the planet with their false morals and breeding culture.

For every human born, ACRES of wildlife forests must be turned into farmland in order to feed that new addition over the course of 60 to 100 YEARS of that new human's lifespan! THIS IS AT THE EXPENSE OF THE FOREST CREATURES!!!! All human procreation and farming must cease!

It is the responsiblity of everyone to preserve the planet they live on by not breeding any more children who will continue their filthy practices. Children represent FUTURE catastrophic pollution whereas their parents are current pollution. NO MORE BABIES! Population growth is a real crisis. Even one child born in the US will use 30 to a thousand times more resources than a Third World child. It's like a couple are having 30 babies even though it's just one! If the US goes in this direction maybe other countries will too!

425 researchok  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:57:46pm

re: #422 Shiplord Kirel

I think that's likely. We may see more acts of terror committed by people who are frustrated that their particular set of delusions has failed to attract a larger audience. That was certainly the case with the late Mr. Lee.

3 point swish.

426 Amory Blaine  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:57:55pm

Intimidating worshipers with a shotgun and only a misdemeanor?

Oh those little rapscallions!! What prank will they pull next?

427 webevintage  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:57:59pm

I really, really wish that Lee's real issue with the Discovery Channel had been Whale Wars....

428 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:58:12pm

re: #423 researchok

Guy was a nut job. His 'manifesto' are the ravings of a lunatic. As I noted above, his politics are irrelevant. They are merely a delivery vehicle for his insanity.

Agreed.

429 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:58:19pm

re: #409 LudwigVanQuixote

The Mormon Church you are referring to - near Connecticut Avenue bears a strong resemblance to the Emerald City.

There used to be an awesome bit of graffiti on a bridge that the Church is directly visible and centered over when viewed from the beltway.

It said Surrender Dorothy!

Heh. That graffito was there for a couple of decades. It would get painted over, and whoever did it would get back up there on the bridge over I-495 and spray it again. And I'd get a belly laugh every time I drove under it.

The dude who did that is my hero. He not only chose the best possible mockery, he chose the best possible site for it. First you saw the Emerald City thingy looming up ahead, then you saw the tag. It was pure genius.

One of the truly inspired bits of two-word mockery in the History of the Universe..

430 researchok  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:59:05pm

re: #417 RadicalModerate

OT but definitely relevant:

Obama opens Mideast talks: Attacks 'won't stop us'

Here's to hoping that President Obama has better luck fostering a lasting Israel/Palestine peace agreement than the past half dozen or so Presidents have been able to achieve. Specifically naming Hamas as a terroristic group interested in destabilization is a good start.

Let's hope this won't end up as a 'Peace in our time' moment.

431 Racer X  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:59:15pm

re: #417 RadicalModerate

OT but definitely relevant:

Obama opens Mideast talks: Attacks 'won't stop us'

Here's to hoping that President Obama has better luck fostering a lasting Israel/Palestine peace agreement than the past half dozen or so Presidents have been able to achieve. Specifically naming Hamas as a terroristic group interested in destabilization is a good start.

From the link:

In a statement to be delivered prior to Wednesday's White House dinner, Netanyahu framed Israel's ambitions for the peace process.

"Our goal is to forge a secure and durable peace between Israel and the Palestinians," he said, according to an advance copy of his remarks. "We do not seek an interlude between two wars. We do not seek a temporary respite between outbursts of terror."

Netanyahu stressed the central importance of security assurances for the Jewish state as part of any land-for-peace agreement with the Palestinians.

"We left Lebanon, we got terror. We left Gaza, we got terror. We want to ensure that territory we concede will not be turned into a third Iranian-sponsored terror enclave aimed at the heart of Israel," Netanyahu said.

I truly wish Obama success in this peace endeavor.

432 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 2:59:35pm

re: #423 researchok

Guy was a nut job. His 'manifesto' are the ravings of a lunatic. As I noted above, his politics are irrelevant. They are merely a delivery vehicle for his insanity.

bingo

433 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:00:13pm

re: #416 researchok

The guy was nuts and he was a criminal. I could care less about his politics.

Making an issue of his politics, in my opinion, is absurd. First and foremost, he was a sick bastard. His politics and leanings are meaningless.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Crap. If he had gone in there ranting about mosques, we would not be studiously ignoring the right-wing basis for his crazyboner.

434 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:01:43pm

re: #420 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Sarah Palin the Sound and the Fury

She seems like just as I've thought, an angry person with a lot of hate.

435 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:02:23pm

re: #433 Cato the Elder

I really don't get this argument, Cato.

What is the supposed left-wing source that you think made him go crazy?

So far, you've named An Inconvenient Truth, which is a sober, factual documentary.

How is that comparable to the lies and distortions surrounding Park51 and the current bigotry towards Muslims?

J.D. Salinger isn't to blame for John Lennon's death. Al Gore isn't to blame for this dude going nuts.

436 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:02:31pm

I tried to watch Glenn Beck tonight just to see what the lunatic was up to now. It started out with him trying to convince his watchers that there is a Hugh government conspiracy to keep the price of gold down artificially (followed by a commercial by Goldline, his major sponsor).

He followed that up with a 10 minute rant about how your tax dollars are being used to purposefully lure illegal immigrants into this country so as to hasten it's collapse, no really, that is what he said! He blamed his own audience for being complicit in the soon to happen collapse of America for doing nothing but sitting on the couch while paying their taxes that are being used to destroy this country, I shit you not.

No wonder Glenn is slowly losing his audience, I have to think he has gone a bit too nutbar for even a lot of his wingnut fans.

By the late middle of the show I found myself mouthing back to the screen audibly "Fuck you Glenn, fuck you, you fucking liar." Of course I have sworn off watching Beck before, yet I end up back there, it is like watching a train wreck, it is hard not to rubberneck.

Still I have had my dose for the next few months, I'm not out looking for T.V. shows that actually make me angry, and Fox's morning show and Glenn Beck's show are the only two shows I know of on T.V. that are guaranteed to routinely make me angry.

437 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:02:32pm

re: #420 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Sarah Palin the Sound and the Fury

Great post. This should be a thread of its own.

438 The Yankee  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:02:46pm

Seriously though do you think this guy might of had anything to do with ELF. They did say they were going directly attacks humans if needed. But his objective doesn't seem like something ELF would be on board with.

439 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:03:45pm

One more bit:

Saving the environment and the remaning species diversity of the planet is now your mindset. Nothing is more important than saving them. The Lions, Tigers, Giraffes, Elephants, Froggies, Turtles, Apes, Raccoons, Beetles, Ants, Sharks, Bears, and, of course, the Squirrels

.

The "froggies"?
And ". . . of course, the Squirrels"?

Why, "of course, the Squirrels"? Why not, "of course, dogs".

This man was not exactly playing with a full deck, IMO.

440 Kragar  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:05:07pm

Sarah Palin’s plans mark change in posture toward Iowa

Palin’s plan to headline the Iowa Republican Party’s annual fall fundraiser on Sept. 17 is solely to help raise money for the state party’s candidates, the former Alaska governor’s aides said.

And one trip to Iowa is a long way from a successful campaign for the state’s 2012 presidential caucuses, still 18 months away, Iowa party insiders said.

But Palin’s recent overtures to Iowa reveal a change in posture that puts her in a position — like other 2012 presidential prospects already laying campaign groundwork in Iowa — to build goodwill and relationships with influential activists, state Republican officials said.

“It does signal an interest in helping Iowans be successful in 2010,” state Republican Party Chairman Matt Strawn said. “Iowa Republicans are going to look favorably on anybody that has come to this state this year to help us win in 2010.”

441 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:05:28pm

I'm just getting happy laughs from seeing people who have recently written about denying people the vote unless they can pass an algebra test and executing "big" AGW deniers trying to spin this guy away.

If he is not an extreme left-wing moonbat eco-terrorist, there is no such thing.

442 elbruce  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:06:44pm

From the NYT write-up:

At about 11 p.m. on Monday, the teenagers in Carlton were at “some type of gathering,” Mr. Cardone said, when one of them suggested going to harass people at the “cult house” — what they called the mosque.

I wonder what "type of gathering" that was. I'd be very interested to find out who was behind that.

Also: firing shotguns and running people down in cars is not a misdemeanor in any jurisdiction that I know of. This is assault and a hate crime at the very least, attempted murder at most.

443 researchok  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:07:03pm

re: #433 Cato the Elder

Crap. If he had gone in there ranting about mosques, we would not be studiously ignoring the right-wing basis for his crazyboner.

Let me wax for a moment.

Your remarks might be accurate. They do not however, negate my statement.

I concede that had he gone in ranting about mosques many would not be ignoring right wing influences- and they would be wrong for doing so.

Just because they may be applauded by some does not confer credibility.

444 elbruce  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:07:34pm

re: #383 Charles

"Anchor baby" isn't exactly your typical left wing phrase.


Yeah, tying chains to babies and throwing them in the ocean is something only right wingers would do... /

445 RadicalModerate  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:07:54pm

re: #430 researchok

Let's hope this won't end up as a 'Peace in our time' moment.

I don't see this happening - the comments that President Obama made today made it pretty clear that he's going into the negotiations with both eyes open. There are some major sticking points that will have to be resolved before *any* hope of peace are achievable.

446 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:08:01pm

re: #440 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Sarah Palin’s plans mark change in posture toward Iowa

40% of Iowa Republican voters apparently view her unfavorably. I suppose her response will be to blame that on the "lamestream media". I honestly don't think she'll win the nomination. I think it's either Pawlenty or Huckabee that will win it. Romney will get the Mormon treatment and his opponents will use his health care bill in Massachusetts against him.

447 elbruce  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:08:29pm

re: #361 the yankee

I have never heard of a Sufi terrorist nor a Sikh one.

Not to mention that Sikhs aren't even Muslims.

448 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:09:33pm

re: #441 Cato the Elder

There are real extreme left-wing eco-terrorists who are not nuts-- depending on your version of nuts. They actually exist. This guy, however, was clearly insane.

Do you have an answer to my above question?

449 researchok  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:10:07pm

re: #445 RadicalModerate

I don't see this happening - the comments that President Obama made today made it pretty clear that he's going into the negotiations with both eyes open. There are some major sticking points that will have to be resolved before *any* hope of peace are achievable.

I wish I could share your optimism.

I do believe Obama wants to pull out all the stops, but when all is said and done, I believe he will be usurped by Hamas.

450 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:10:40pm

re: #442 elbruce

Also: firing shotguns and running people down in cars is not a misdemeanor in any jurisdiction that I know of. This is assault and a hate crime at the very least, attempted murder at most.

who said they were only to be charged with misdemeanors?

451 researchok  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:11:25pm

re: #441 Cato the Elder

I'm just getting happy laughs from seeing people who have recently written about denying people the vote unless they can pass an algebra test and executing "big" AGW deniers trying to spin this guy away.

If he is not an extreme left-wing moonbat eco-terrorist, there is no such thing.

He is all those things- and insane.

452 The Yankee  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:13:07pm

re: #447 elbruce

Yea but they have to start realizing that they (we) are all in the same bucket. Which is going to be hard cause the Sikh, Kurds, Othordox Jews, and Hindu all have some what of a bad history with the Suni muslims. They need to get out from that and work together to stop it cause they have something to loose in this even if they don't want to admit it.

453 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:13:51pm

re: #439 reine.de.tout

But sure as you're born,
You're never gonna see a Unicorn.

454 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:14:17pm

re: #441 Cato the Elder

I'm just getting happy laughs from seeing people who have recently written about denying people the vote unless they can pass an algebra test and executing "big" AGW deniers trying to spin this guy away.

If he is not an extreme left-wing moonbat eco-terrorist, there is no such thing.

Ohhh you think I am spinning him? Cato? Is there a reason you are picking a fight?

No, I think I said he was a far left libertarian of the LaRouche variety with certain views from all over the map. If you missed that then, you can see it clearly here now.

What is your major malfunction?

455 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:15:48pm

re: #441 Cato the Elder

No really, Cato. let's have this one out. What is up your ass today?

456 elbruce  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:15:51pm

re: #450 Aceofwhat?

who said they were only to be charged with misdemeanors?

The NYT:

They were charged with disrupting a religious service, a misdemeanor.


Talk about a weak charge for such an incident. However, it did note that one of them was also charged with "criminal possession of a weapon." And it's likely they'll add more charges later. I just want to strongly advocate that they do.

457 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:15:58pm

re: #439 reine.de.tout

The "froggies"?

"Daddy loves Froggie.
Does Froggie love Daddy?"
-Hedley Lamar

458 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:20:33pm

re: #456 elbruce

Talk about a weak charge for such an incident. However, it did note that one of them was also charged with "criminal possession of a weapon." And it's likely they'll add more charges later. I just want to strongly advocate that they do.

why wouldn't they be charged for something that the state thinks it can prove beyond a reasonable doubt? are you afraid that a nefarious power will swoop in on the miscreants' behalf?

459 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:23:48pm

re: #455 LudwigVanQuixote

No really, Cato. let's have this one out. What is up your ass today?

Um, nice.

I'm amused at the frantic attempt to preemptively spin this guy away from his roots, which are plainly deep in the soil of far-left eco-fascism.

I've read what's available of his screeds, and they're full of eco-fascist, far-left memes, filtered through the mind of a crazy person.

It is what it is.

460 elbruce  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:26:48pm

re: #458 Aceofwhat?

why wouldn't they be charged for something that the state thinks it can prove beyond a reasonable doubt? are you afraid that a nefarious power will swoop in on the miscreants' behalf?

Nah, I'm afraid of stuff like this:

Asked about the motive, Mr. Cardone said the teenagers used “very poor judgment.”

“It’s just kids doing stupid things,” he said, “but it got more serious when they ran into a member of the mosque and they discharged a weapon. And we are taking it seriously.”

Mr. Huzair said that the mosque, which opened in 1974, had a generally good relationship with the community, but that harassment episodes had happened on several nights this Ramadan.

“The difficulty that we have is that we have difficulty in getting police officers to act more hastily in apprehending suspects,” he said.


The authorities there don't seem to be taking this sort of thing very seriously. I don't want these people getting a slap on the wrist for "doing stupid things," as the local District Attorney phrased it.

461 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:27:37pm

re: #460 elbruce

The authorities there don't seem to be taking this sort of thing very seriously. I don't want these people getting a slap on the wrist for "doing stupid things," as the local District Attorney phrased it.

didn't he say that he was taking it seriously, because it got more serious than just kids doing stupid things?

462 elbruce  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 3:37:16pm

re: #461 Aceofwhat?

didn't he say that he was taking it seriously, because it got more serious than just kids doing stupid things?

I smell a general attitude of "boys will be boys" about all this. When the D.A. is calling your crime "poor judgement" and "kids doing stupid things," that kind of signals that whatever else he says he doesn't really consider them to be serious criminals, and it's quite possible he won't treat them as such. If I committed a crime and the district attorney said to the press, "he's a good guy, he just made a silly mistake that anybody could make" and then said "but of course I take this very seriously..." So what does that mean, he's splitting the difference between those two positions? Or that one of them is what he really thinks while the other is the boilerplate thing he's supposed to say? Or what?

Especially considering the complaints about slow police response time, such that the worshipers basically had to band together and make the arrest themselves, there's a stink of resistance from the legal authorities to take these kinds of situations very seriously at all. We'll see.

In the meantime, some national attention and random rabble-rousing wouldn't be amiss while the D.A. ponders how he's going to actually follow through on this.

463 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 4:14:43pm

re: #338 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I think it generates it.

464 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 4:18:02pm

re: #404 DaddyG

Disorganized Religion is kind of fun if you can stand the volunteers.

Exactly, your quote reminds me of the food bank where I work. It helps people. It is nondenominational. It is sort of organized. We have a good time there.

465 Bentis Fughazi  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 4:24:28pm

re: #59 Conservative Moonbat

We all know how violent the sufi can be. They might get mad and meditate at you.

Ah'm gonna give you a contemplatin' yew ain't never gunna fergit.

466 ReamWorks SKG  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 8:12:23pm

They fired a SHOTGUN as a threat and didn't get charged with a FELONY?

A group of teenagers in western New York has been accused of harassing members of a mosque by yelling obscenities and insults during evening prayers for Ramadan, sideswiping a worshiper with a vehicle and firing a shotgun outside, the authorities said Tuesday.

The teenagers were cornered by members of the mosque, who held them for the police. They were charged with disrupting a religious service, a misdemeanor.

Aren't there laws against "brandishing?"

467 ClaudeMonet  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 10:49:58pm

re: #24 webevintage

When did white people become so damn whiny?

When they found out that if its done on a big enough, stupid enough scale, whining attracts media attention.

468 ClaudeMonet  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 11:23:15pm

re: #421 deranged cat

hehehe.. this makes my day.
David Cross on Conservatives

[Video]Cross hits it right on the head. teabaggers are the first to yell loudly about everything, and the first to yell about being criticized about anything.

They yell when they're happy, and they yell when they're sad.

They're all either deaf, Russians, or both.

If you've ever lived in a neighborhood with Russians, you know what I mean.


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