Bibi and Abu Mazen Shake, Agree to Talk

Middle East • Views: 3,478

Benjamin Netanyahu and Mahmoud Abbas met today at the State Department, shook hands, and managed to agree on something: to have some more talks.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas will meet again on Sept. 14 and 15 in the Middle East, likely at the Egyptian Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheik, with an eye toward forging the outline of a pact. They will also meet roughly every two weeks after that.

UPDATE at 9/2/10 1:03:01 pm:

The White House has posted embeddable video of the press conference, with President Obama, President Mubarak of Egypt, King Abdullah of Jordan, Prime Minister Netanyahu of Israel, and Palestinian Authority President Abbas.

Video

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266 comments
1 spikester  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 12:50:58pm

glad to know this will all be over in a year

2 wee fury  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 12:53:11pm

Wonder if the talks will go on for another 50 years.

3 spikester  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 12:54:06pm

re: #2 wee fury


I wish I has a $ for every time they started talks

4 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 12:54:10pm

I wish I felt some sort of optimism. The last five years have been very rough on that.

5 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 12:55:52pm

Call me a pessimist, but I say it falls apart by the years end.

6 lawhawk  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 12:58:29pm

“…an eye to forging the outline of a pact.”

Umm… the outline of a pact is what we’ve had in one form or another since UN SCR 242 (and 338) (which would be land for peace) and every successive attempt, including Oslo. Olso was an agreed framework. We haven’t seen Palestinian compliance with the terms of that agreement, but hey, let’s just ignore all that and move forward with another set of talks that an entire region under Palestinian control wont even recognize (Gaza, I’m looking at you) and an entire portion of the Palestinian Authority doesn’t recognize (Hamas, smile for the camera).

This is the diplomats once again engaging in their usual pseudoreality - substituting their wishful thinking for the facts on the ground.

I guess talking is better than the alternative, but unless Abbas has authority to make a deal, then talk is all you’ll have.

7 thatthatisis  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 12:59:30pm

When it comes to the mideast, talking IS the peace. You’ll never get a lasting agreement on anything, so the way to stop war is to keep both sides talking together.

As far as I’m concerned, peace talks lasting 5 - 10 years would be a wonderful thing.

8 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:02:16pm

re: #7 thatthatisis

When it comes to the mideast, talking IS the peace. You’ll never get a lasting agreement on anything, so the way to stop war is to keep both sides talking together.

As far as I’m concerned, peace talks lasting 5 - 10 years would be a wonderful thing.

Plus, you get 5-10 years to train, restock and resupply so you can kill even more people when you decide to fight it out again.

9 Charles Johnson  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:03:55pm

Video of the press conference now posted above…

10 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:06:40pm

Hamas leader rejects compromise, peace with Israel

In an address to Hamas members, Gaza strongman Mahmoud Zahar said the movement would resist peace efforts and criticized the Palestinian president for joining the negotiations.

“Today marks the start of direct negotiations between someone who has no right to represent the Palestinian people and the brutal occupier, to provide a cover for Judaizing Jerusalem and stealing the land,” Zahar said.

11 Cineaste  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:07:47pm

Between this and the photo of them all having a meal together yesterday it’s only more proof that Obama refuses to meet with Bibi.

// end right wing talking point //

12 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:08:09pm

re: #2 wee fury

Wonder if the talks will go on for another 50 years.

There is nothing of substance to talk about, really.

The Palestinians and the Arab world are shame based societies. In and of itself, that would be not be an impediment to achieving peace= other shame based cultures have managed to adapt and participate in the modern world.

The difference is that the Arab world refuses to adapt to modern realities.

In western and civilized world, honor is earned by way of behavior and comportment. In the Arab world, honor is inherent, simply by way of existence. That is why ‘honor killings are not only tolerated but tacitly endorsed. By killing the source of ‘shame’, honor is restored. It takes the eradication of the source of shame to restore honor.

For now, Israel cannot be dealt with in a way that might establish her credibility. By virtue of her existence, Israel has ‘shamed’ the Arab world and must be eradicated. Her ‘honor’ as a nation can never be acknowledged.

To make peace with Israel is to admit that, A) The Arabs nations are in, comparison are failed states and B) That the promised Quranic domination of the Jews will not be achieved (it bears noting that these religious expressions are the result of government use of religion. In the Arab world, religious dictates reflect the views of the state. These tyrannical regimes control all religious expression ).

To make peace with Israel, Arabs will have to concede that everything they believe and the religious dogma they hold dear is false. Obviously, that won’t happen.

Peace in the middle east will happen when Arab world culture will reflect room for and acceptance of teh other’. Until then, peace talks are no more than another source of entertainment.

13 Cineaste  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:09:01pm

re: #10 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Hamas leader rejects compromise, peace with Israel

At least they now just come right out and say they don’t want peace. Hopefully we can all stop with the idea that there is a solution to be had with Hamas.

14 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:09:47pm

re: #12 researchok

I think you’re painting the Arab world with a rather broad brush.

I know people who grew up in Palestine, Lebanon, Kuwait, Iraq, who do not have the values you describe.

15 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:09:58pm

re: #13 Cineaste

At least they now just come right out and say they don’t want peace. Hopefully we can all stop with the idea that there is a solution to be had with Hamas.

There is a solution. Let Israel engage them and fight to win.

16 Cineaste  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:12:24pm

re: #15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

There is a solution. Let Israel engage them and fight to win.

You can’t fight them to win. There is no Appomattox where one side surrenders and gives up the fight.

17 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:13:09pm

re: #15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

There is a solution. Let Israel engage them and fight to win.

Engage who? The entire Arab world?

18 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:14:18pm

re: #11 Cineaste

Between this and the photo of them all having a meal together yesterday it’s only more proof that Obama refuses to meet with Bibi.

// end right wing talking point //

Ah ha! But that is a very yellow room, and we all get the very subtle message that is sent by holding this in a room the color of jaundice, of cowardice, of lemon drops…

And who is that who doesn’t get to eat? What did he do? Why doesn’t he get to eat? Is he in time out?

19 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:14:33pm

re: #14 Obdicut

I think you’re painting the Arab world with a rather broad brush.

I know people who grew up in Palestine, Lebanon, Kuwait, Iraq, who do not have the values you describe.

I should have been more clear. I am not referring to individual Arabs, but rather the entire society predicated on that particular (read: cultivated) culture.

Think Bion and group behavior.

20 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:14:34pm

re: #14 Obdicut

I think you’re painting the Arab world with a rather broad brush.

I know people who grew up in Palestine, Lebanon, Kuwait, Iraq, who do not have the values you describe.

are those folks still in the mideast, or have they moved to the USA?

21 Killgore Trout  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:15:07pm

re: #12 researchok

Peace in the middle east will happen when Arab world culture will reflect room for and acceptance of teh other’. Until then, peace talks are no more than another source of entertainment.

Interesting thoughts. One element I’d add is that the PA could not impose peace even if it wanted to. They have no control over Hamas and only limited control over Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. Not to mention the other various militant groups operating in the Palestinian territories. Even at the height of its power the PA couldn’t impose peace. There’s absolutely no chance they could do so today.

22 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:15:50pm

re: #17 Obdicut

Engage who? The entire Arab world?

Hamas. The fact their leadership and offices are not targetted as a matter of course is ridiculous.

23 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:16:07pm

re: #16 Cineaste

You can’t fight them to win. There is no Appomattox where one side surrenders and gives up the fight.

Who’s talking about surrender… who’s talking about “giving up” some capital or something… I think the idea is to destroy Hamas… like by eliminating them from the face of the planet if necessary…

24 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:16:13pm

re: #20 _RememberTonyC

are those folks still in the mideast, or have they moved to the USA?

Some have moved here. Some have gone back.

But the point was that they grew up there, and did not hold the values you describe.

The culture is not monolithic. No culture is.

25 RadicalModerate  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:18:12pm

The only, and I mean ONLY way that this will get traction is if the Palestinian government gives Hamas an ultimatum to stop all hostilities, and if they do not do so, crack down hard on them. It has to be initiated from within the Palestinian authorities as preemptive actions by Israel only serves to further entrench the extremists, and gives them additional recruiting propaganda. Israel must still protect itself, obviously, but they have to take a passive role in the internals of Palestine and Gaza.

26 lawhawk  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:18:40pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

The AAMB is part of Fatah - it’s a wholly owned subsidiary.
Hamas now plays a similar game with the Ezzedin al Qassam.

27 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:19:09pm

The fact that Hamas Leaders like Haniyeh and Zahar can move about freely, without worrying about getting a hellfire up the back side is a serious blow to any serious peace effort.

28 Charles Johnson  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:19:33pm

Jordan, Egypt, Israel, and the Palestinian Authority in the same room together. That’s the kind of scene that really pisses off Al Qaeda.

29 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:19:45pm

re: #22 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Hamas. The fact their leadership and offices are not targetted as a matter of course is ridiculous.

I don’t think that you can wipe out Hamas without huge numbers of civilian casualties, which will (hah) further increase the radicalization of the Palestinians— and other Arabs— and potentially cause more danger to Israel.

The leadership will just retreat to a nearby Arab state. Then what does Israel do?

They’re cowards. It’s hard to fight cowards.

30 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:20:28pm

re: #24 Obdicut

Some have moved here. Some have gone back.

But the point was that they grew up there, and did not hold the values you describe.

The culture is not monolithic. No culture is.


I didn’t make the original comment, researchok did. But I suspect your friends were more enlightened than most others who are from the region. We are fortunate that most of the people from other cultures we encounter are from the higher end of those societies. And since they are likely more educated and enlightened, they have a much more realistic view of the world.

31 Killgore Trout  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:20:42pm

re: #26 lawhawk

The AAMB is part of Fatah - it’s a wholly owned subsidiary.


I know but I don’t think they’d stop terrorist activity even if they were ordered to.

32 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:20:49pm

re: #28 Charles

Jordan, Egypt, Israel, and the Palestinian Authority in the same room together. That’s the kind of scene that really pisses off Al Qaeda.

There is also Hillary Clinton sitting there acting like she’s their equal or something. Stupid uppity female.

33 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:21:26pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

Interesting thoughts. One element I’d add is that the PA could not impose peace even if it wanted to. They have no control over Hamas and only limited control over Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. Not to mention the other various militant groups operating in the Palestinian territories. Even at the height of its power the PA couldn’t impose peace. There’s absolutely no chance they could do so today.

And that, there, is the central problem. A failed state can’t make promises. A failed state can’t be held accountable in the same way a well-developed nation-state can. And it certainly can’t make guarantees about what it will do because it isn’t a singular entity in any real sense.

34 lawhawk  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:21:28pm

re: #25 RadicalModerate

The only, and I mean ONLY way that this will get traction is if the Palestinian government gives Hamas an ultimatum to stop all hostilities, and if they do not do so, crack down hard on them. It has to be initiated from within the Palestinian authorities as preemptive actions by Israel only serves to further entrench the extremists, and gives them additional recruiting propaganda. Israel must still protect itself, obviously, but they have to take a passive role in the internals of Palestine and Gaza.

You do realize that Hamas is part of the Palestinian Authority - and doesn’t consider the current makeup legitimate because they won the majority of seats at the last openly held race.

Aid to the PA is now routed through Abbas’ office to avoid (really minimize) the chances that terrorists get a hold of foreign aid monies.

35 Cineaste  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:21:40pm

re: #23 Walter L. Newton

Who’s talking about surrender… who’s talking about “giving up” some capital or something… I think the idea is to destroy Hamas… like by eliminating them from the face of the planet if necessary…

I love that idea. The reality is that “Hamas” isn’t a defined set of people. It is a complex web of actual “members” and tacit supporters that winds through the populace of Gaza (and the West Bank to a lesser extent). It’s much more complex than deposing a dictator. Hamas received a majority (or at least a plurality) of the vote in what was generally considered a free & fair election. This doesn’t mean we should support them but it shows that there is support that runs beyond those who can be defined as “Hamas”.

36 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:21:55pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

Interesting thoughts. One element I’d add is that the PA could not impose peace even if it wanted to. They have no control over Hamas and only limited control over Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. Not to mention the other various militant groups operating in the Palestinian territories. Even at the height of its power the PA couldn’t impose peace. There’s absolutely no chance they could do so today.

Agreed.

One of the interesting sidebars to the story is that for decades, we and other Eastern Europeans have tried to ‘buy’ good behavior and a desired (elicited) response. Naturally, the Palestinians have kept upping the ante- demanding more and more.

Of course, this course of action has been disastrous because unlike other modern groups (e.g. the Europeans and the Marshall Plan) the Palestinians and the Arab world have never had a successful society in either the political or economic sense.

They believe a consumer society is the same as a producing society.

Thus, they will consume our aid happily, knowing they need not ever ‘produce’. When we hold back, they cry victimhood.

37 Cineaste  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:22:35pm

re: #28 Charles

Jordan, Egypt, Israel, and the Palestinian Authority in the same room together. That’s the kind of scene that really pisses off Al Qaeda.

They should have met at Park 51…

38 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:23:24pm

re: #28 Charles

Jordan, Egypt, Israel, and the Palestinian Authority in the same room together. That’s the kind of scene that really pisses off Al Qaeda.

Or, a scenario they find most humorous. They know damn well these guys won’t ever agree on the time of day.

39 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:24:00pm

re: #36 researchok

Should read ‘Western Europeans’

40 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:24:33pm

re: #38 researchok

Or, a scenario they find most humorous. They know damn well these guys won’t ever agree on the time of day.

During the cold war, in negotiations between the USSR and the US, they would spend days arguing over the shape of the table.

41 deranged cat  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:24:34pm

did i just imagine seeing comment quotes in light grey quote bubbles?

42 lawhawk  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:25:03pm

re: #28 Charles

Jordan, Egypt, Israel, and the Palestinian Authority in the same room together. That’s the kind of scene that really pisses off Al Qaeda.

It’s a recruitment poster for the jihad - because Egypt isn’t exactly a government that AQ liked from its founding (remember that Zawahiri was imprisoned by the Egyptian government) and had close ties with the Muslim Brotherhood there. The Brotherhood’s stance has been that the failings in Egypt were the result of secularism. Israel wouldn’t even have to enter the equation. AQ throws it in there because it’s the fashionable thing to do.

43 reine.de.tout  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:25:27pm

re: #41 deranged cat

did i just imagine seeing comment quotes in light grey quote bubbles?

I see that from time to time, but not all the time.

44 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:25:28pm

It comes down to one key fundamental principle of international law and diplomacy, the Monopoly on Violence

It defines a single entity, the state, exercising authority on violence over a given territory, as territory was also deemed by Weber to be a characteristic of state. Importantly, such a monopoly must occur via a process of legitimation, wherein a claim is laid to legitimise the state’s use of violence.
…
states that fail to control the use of coercive violent force (e.g., those with unregulated militias) are essentially not functional states. Another is that all such “functional” states function by reproducing the forms of violence that sustain existing social power relationships, and suppressing the forms of violence that threaten to disrupt them.

As long as the Palistinians refuse to police their own, any peace treaty the PA might sign off on is worth less than the paper its printed on.

45 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:25:53pm

re: #30 _RememberTonyC

I didn’t make the original comment, researchok did. But I suspect your friends were more enlightened than most others who are from the region. We are fortunate that most of the people from other cultures we encounter are from the higher end of those societies. And since they are likely more educated and enlightened, they have a much more realistic view of the world.

Which is my point. You can’t describe Arab culture monolithically. It’s not monolithic. They have corrupt, repressive governments, radicalized religion, but they still have ordinary, decent people trying to live ordinary, decent lives, who don’t buy into the bullshit. Many of them hate and fear their own governments.

46 Charles Johnson  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:26:09pm

re: #41 deranged cat

did i just imagine seeing comment quotes in light grey quote bubbles?

No, you didn’t. One of our advertisements is putting out some bad HTML code that’s causing that. I think it was mormon.org - I just added that URL to our Adsense block list, hopefully that will fix it.

47 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:26:22pm

re: #40 Fozzie Bear

During the cold war, in negotiations between the USSR and the US, they would spend days arguing over the shape of the table.

All true- but negotiations were the goal.

With the Arabs and the Palestinians, obfuscation is the goal. As with Iran, it’s all for show.

48 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:27:34pm

re: #45 Obdicut

Which is my point. You can’t describe Arab culture monolithically. It’s not monolithic. They have corrupt, repressive governments, radicalized religion, but they still have ordinary, decent people trying to live ordinary, decent lives, who don’t buy into the bullshit. Many of them hate and fear their own governments.

Sadly, those aren’t the Arabs we have to deal with.

Like it or not, we have to deal with the powers that be.

49 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:27:37pm

re: #36 researchok


They believe a consumer society is the same as a producing society.

They cannot produce if they cannot find work, and they cannot find work if the borders are sealed and they cannot leave their villages.

It is a bit of a vicious circle.

I understand the Israeli concern that they have given up land and gotten nothing out of it but more bases for terrorism.

50 lawhawk  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:28:15pm

re: #33 Fozzie Bear

And that, there, is the central problem. A failed state can’t make promises. A failed state can’t be held accountable in the same way a well-developed nation-state can. And it certainly can’t make guarantees about what it will do because it isn’t a singular entity in any real sense.

It can’t even do the minimal task of stopping the incitement to violence and indoctrination in its schools - promulgating maps showing the land west of Jordan as without Israel’s existence, let alone address the security concerns (which is why Israel built the security fences along so much of its Green Line and around Israeli communities in the West Bank).

51 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:28:20pm

re: #47 researchok

Aah, generic hate. Cute.

52 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:28:45pm

re: #46 Charles

No, you didn’t. One of our advertisements is putting out some bad HTML code that’s causing that. I think it was mormon.org - I just added that URL to our Adsense block list, hopefully that will fix it.

You’re blocking the mormons? This won’t end well.
/

53 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:29:35pm

re: #48 researchok

Sadly, those aren’t the Arabs we have to deal with.

Like it or not, we have to deal with the powers that be.

I agree. I’m just pointing out that when you talk about Arab culture monolithically, you’re ignoring those people. It’s like talking about Russian Culture under the USSR as though everyone was a fervent communist.

54 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:32:54pm

re: #49 ralphieboy

They cannot produce if they cannot find work, and they cannot find work if the borders are sealed and they cannot leave their villages.

It is a bit of a vicious circle.

I understand the Israeli concern that they have given up land and gotten nothing out of it but more bases for terrorism.

Peace in the region is predicated on three things, all agreed on by the UN, NATO, and The Quartet:

*Cessation of hostilities.
*Secure borders.
*Diplomatic recognition.

Which of those things are too onerous a burden for the Palestinians?

A peace treaty would release a tsunami of aid and economic development.

For decades, peace has been a phone call away. By their actions and words, the Palestinians have made clear they’ d rather kill Jews than have a state of their own.

Hate, racism, bigotry and calls to genocide are a lot easier than having to provide real government and to be accountable to their people.

55 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:33:25pm

re: #51 windsagio

Aah, generic hate. Cute.

Please clarify.

56 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:34:36pm

re: #53 Obdicut

I agree. I’m just pointing out that when you talk about Arab culture monolithically, you’re ignoring those people. It’s like talking about Russian Culture under the USSR as though everyone was a fervent communist.

Of course, no culture is monolithic. That said, we have to deal with who is in charge, not with whom we want to be in charge.

57 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:34:55pm

Remember the good old days when peace talks, however shaky they might have been, were seen as a positive event? Man, I miss those.

58 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:35:57pm

re: #55 researchok

It makes me crazy. The attitude “THey’re all evil people that wouldn’t possibly want any peaceful resolution”.

Its treating them monlithically by their worst members. Its like saying ‘oh obviously Israel is working in bad faith and only wants to obfuscate because off the absolute ragged-edge radical settlers’.

That would be brutally unfair, of course.

59 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:36:29pm

re: #57 darthstar

Remember the good old days when peace talks, however shaky they might have been, were seen as a positive event? Man, I miss those.

In most places they are, we’re in kinda a weird spot :p

60 RadicalModerate  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:36:30pm

re: #34 lawhawk

You do realize that Hamas is part of the Palestinian Authority - and doesn’t consider the current makeup legitimate because they won the majority of seats at the last openly held race.

Aid to the PA is now routed through Abbas’ office to avoid (really minimize) the chances that terrorists get a hold of foreign aid monies.

I fully realize that Hamas’ political arm is part of the PA. However, if they are calling for war, and initiating attacks when President Abbas is calling for peace, that can be considered an act of insurrection and can be treated as such, and I think they would get wholesale international support for those actions.

61 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:38:51pm

re: #58 windsagio

It makes me crazy. The attitude “THey’re all evil people that wouldn’t possibly want any peaceful resolution”.

Its treating them monlithically by their worst members. Its like saying ‘oh obviously Israel is working in bad faith and only wants to obfuscate because off the absolute ragged-edge radical settlers’.

That would be brutally unfair, of course.

I never said that.

In fact, I have said and written many times that the biggest victim of Palestinian and Arab tyrannical regimes are the Palestinians and Arabs themselves.

Israel will always be a first world country. Until there is a wholesale rejection of the dysfunctional societal elements, the Palestinians and Arabs will only fall further behind.

62 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:39:41pm

re: #56 researchok

Of course, no culture is monolithic. That said, we have to deal with who is in charge, not with whom we want to be in charge.

Agreed. The only thing I’m objecting to is the sweeping statement about the societies being ‘shame-based societies’. To me, that’s rather too nebulous a construct— and besides, the most shame-based society I’m aware of is Japan, and they manage to be a democracy.

63 Charles Johnson  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:39:50pm

Uh, speaking of peace talks, I got a “goodbye cruel world” email from Spare O’Lake.

64 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:40:07pm

re: #60 RadicalModerate

I fully realize that Hamas’ political arm is part of the PA. However, if they are calling for war, and initiating attacks when President Abbas is calling for peace, that can be considered an act of insurrection and can be treated as such, and I think they would get wholesale international support for those actions.

Nice idea but won’t happen.

The Arab regimes have too much to lose if there is a peace treaty.

65 lawhawk  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:40:07pm

re: #57 darthstar

Oslo was an instance of where the negotiations were conducted backchannels for months before they were made public; the White House lawn was for the ceremonial signing after the heavy lifting was already done.

Camp David (1979) was possible because of Sadat.

The Palestinians have no one of his capabilities, foresight, or willingness to stand up to the jihadis/anti-Israel brigade.

I wrote my masters thesis on the ME peace process and that it is a personality driven process - if you have a personality willing to make it happen, then a deal is possible. That was the case with Sadat; Arafat waivered, and Abbas appears incapable of making a deal.

Note too that Sadat paid for his deal with his life, but his successor has held to the terms fo the agreement.

66 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:40:50pm

re: #61 researchok

this is the quote I object to:

With the Arabs and the Palestinians, obfuscation is the goal.

It’s prejudicial to say the very least.

67 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:41:03pm

The fact people actually try to rationalize the difference between the political and militant wings of a terrorist organization is absurd. Imagine if we had decided to end world war 2 because we had defeated the Nazi militant wing, but left the Nazi political wing in power because they were the legitamately elected German leadership.

68 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:41:41pm

re: #63 Charles

Uh, speaking of peace talks, I got a “goodbye cruel world” email from Spare O’Lake.

He was checked out for a long time, really. You could tell.

69 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:41:58pm

re: #63 Charles

Uh, speaking of peace talks, I got a “goodbye cruel world” email from Spare O’Lake.

Not even a flounce?

70 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:43:08pm

re: #67 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The fact people actually try to rationalize the difference between the political and militant wings of a terrorist organization is absurd. Imagine if we had decided to end world war 2 because we had defeated the Nazi militant wing, but left the Nazi political wing in power because they were the legitamately elected German leadership.

Imagine if we had decided to end the Irish Troubles by negotiating with the IRA’s political wing - oh wait…

Why is WWII Germany always everybody’s first go-to analogy, even when it’s not remotely relevant?

71 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:43:11pm

re: #62 Obdicut

Agreed. The only thing I’m objecting to is the sweeping statement about the societies being ‘shame-based societies’. To me, that’s rather too nebulous a construct— and besides, the most shame-based society I’m aware of is Japan, and they manage to be a democracy.

But the Arab world are shame based societies.

I did note above that most shame based societies have adapted. That adaptation on shame based cultures is the norm.

72 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:43:23pm

re: #68 windsagio

He was checked out for a long time, really. You could tell.

I bet everyone is waiting for mine… no dice bucko’s.

73 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:44:02pm

you know, its a single day of really pretty weather, I think I’ll skip this today and come back another time :D

re: #72 Walter L. Newton

I bet everyone is waiting for mine… no dice bucko’s.

You’re not one to give up easily, like it or not >>

Poof!

74 Varek Raith  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:44:10pm

re: #72 Walter L. Newton

I bet everyone is waiting for mine… no dice bucko’s.

Nope, not me.
:)

75 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:44:13pm

re: #72 Walter L. Newton

I bet everyone is waiting for mine… no dice bucko’s.

Apostrophes aren’t free, you know…don’t waste them on simple plurals.

76 RadicalModerate  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:44:27pm

re: #64 researchok

Nice idea but won’t happen.

The Arab regimes have too much to lose if there is a peace treaty.

Which is where the United States and allies come in, to put a full-court pressure on these nations to stay the hell out of the way.

77 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:44:38pm

re: #70 elbruce

Imagine if we had decided to end the Irish Troubles by negotiating with the IRA’s political wing - oh wait…

Why is WWII Germany always everybody’s first go-to analogy, even when it’s not remotely relevant?

You do know that Gerry Adams is considered a terrorist by the US, right?

78 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:45:16pm

re: #76 RadicalModerate

Which is where the United States and allies come in, to put a full-court pressure on these nations to stay the hell out of the way.

Nice thought.

Now, think oil.

79 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:45:25pm

re: #73 windsagio

you know, its a single day of really pretty weather, I think I’ll skip this today and come back another time :D

You’re not one to give up easily, like it or not >>

Poof!

No… you mean I don’t have the common sense to know when to give up.

80 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:45:46pm

re: #75 darthstar

Apostrophes aren’t free, you know…don’t waste them on simple plurals.

Thank you… cake-brain.

81 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:46:27pm

re: #69 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Not even a flounce?

I’d call that a flounce of sorts. We just don’t get to read it. A silent flounce.

82 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:46:30pm

re: #71 researchok

I don’t really buy the whole ‘shame-based’ vs. ‘guilt-based’ paradigm, anyway. It’s too fuzzy and culturally relativistic for me. I think that’s the biggest problem I’m having with this.

And, given that you note other shame-based societies have adapted, their being shame-based or not isn’t especially relevant— it’s their rejection of Enlightenment values. Which you rightly point out, as well. I don’t really buy into the whole honor and shame part of what you said— I think what’s holding the Arab states back is a failure to embrace science, secularism, and egalitarianism.

83 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:46:53pm

re: #64 researchok

Nice idea but won’t happen.

The Arab regimes have too much to lose if there is a peace treaty.

Actually, they have everything to gain. The only losers if there is a peace treaty are the defense industry (ka-CHING!) and the terrorists (fucks up recruitment).

A peace treaty, if honored by both sides would have economic benefits for all parties (increased trade, tourism, etc.).

84 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:46:57pm

re: #66 windsagio

this is the quote I object to:

It’s prejudicial to say the very least.

I will be more precise: With Palestinian and Arab world leadership.

85 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:47:23pm

re: #81 wrenchwench

I’d call that a flounce of sorts. We just don’t get to read it. A silent flounce.

Silent, but deadly.

86 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:47:38pm

Abbas repeatedly made reference to the “PLO” as opposed to the Palestinian Authority. Since Hamas isn’t participating, and since Abbas won’t assert that he is speaking for the Palestinian Authority, I have little confidence that this will produce much more than another aid package or two. No real catalyst.

87 abolitionist  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:47:43pm

re: #40 Fozzie Bear

During the cold war, in negotiations between the USSR and the US, they would spend days arguing over the shape of the table.

For each participant at a round table, assuming they are evenly spaced, all see the other participants spaces as being the same “size” as anyone else’s, in terms of horizontal angles. That property also holds true if the table were merely a circular arc —part of a circle.

88 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:48:07pm

re: #63 Charles

Uh, speaking of peace talks, I got a “goodbye cruel world” email from Spare O’Lake.

oh, shux.

89 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:48:30pm

re: #85 darthstar

Silent, but deadly.

They don’t call the janitorial engineer “Stinky” for nothing, you know.

90 Charles Johnson  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:48:44pm

It’s better than the usual public meltdown and tantrum.

91 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:50:46pm

re: #90 Charles

It’s better than the usual public meltdown and tantrum.

True. True.

92 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:51:19pm

re: #90 Charles

It’s better than the usual public meltdown and tantrum.

When you gotta git, you gotta git while the gittin’s good.

93 General Nimrod Bodfish  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:51:39pm

re: #90 Charles

I guess that’s less work for you and Stinky, then, as you guys don’t have to clean up the aftermath. Not as satisfying as seeing you and the other Lizards lay a smackdown on them, but at least we don’t have to worry about them again, for a while at least.

94 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:52:37pm

re: #82 Obdicut

I don’t really buy the whole ‘shame-based’ vs. ‘guilt-based’ paradigm, anyway. It’s too fuzzy and culturally relativistic for me. I think that’s the biggest problem I’m having with this.

And, given that you note other shame-based societies have adapted, their being shame-based or not isn’t especially relevant— it’s their rejection of Enlightenment values. Which you rightly point out, as well. I don’t really buy into the whole honor and shame part of what you said— I think what’s holding the Arab states back is a failure to embrace science, secularism, and egalitarianism.

Save for your shame/guilt based societies, I don’t think we disagree. Those ideas have long been psychological principles.

I would emphasize your remarks on the rejection of enlightened principles and ideas are a key component to the reality on the ground. I say that because I believe the rejection of enlightened ideas is deliberate.

An educated society is a dagerous society. An educated society makes demands of it’s leaders.

There is a reason that despite obscene wealth, the Arab world, according the UN Report on Human Development has the second lowest level of education in the world.

95 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:53:10pm

re: #70 elbruce

Imagine if we had decided to end the Irish Troubles by negotiating with the IRA’s political wing - oh wait…

Why is WWII Germany always everybody’s first go-to analogy, even when it’s not remotely relevant?

Because the IRA’s political wing made promises they were able to back by controling their militant wing.

Hamas and the PA give you a dumb look and say “We’re only the political wing.”

96 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:53:57pm

re: #93 commadore183

I guess that’s less work for you and Stinky, then, as you guys don’t have to clean up the aftermath. Not as satisfying as seeing you and the other Lizards lay a smackdown on them, but at least we don’t have to worry about them again, for a while at least.

Is that why you hang around, so you can enjoy the theatrics?

97 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:54:32pm

Didn’t Newt Gingrich used to call for a “shame-based” society here? It seems to me we haven’t been immune from that tendency either. Consider the 50’s, or Victorian England.

98 RadicalModerate  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:54:55pm

re: #78 researchok

Nice thought.

Now, think oil.

Which is why I said it has to be a full-court pressure. If the mideast countries try an embargo, and have no buyers as a fallback, then they get hit hard in their own pocketbooks. The United States has diversified its import strategy where there’s no heavy dependence on any one nation (outside of Canada, currently) so it would be difficult on the US, but not an impossible situation to deal with.

99 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:55:00pm

re: #83 darthstar

Actually, they have everything to gain. The only losers if there is a peace treaty are the defense industry (ka-CHING!) and the terrorists (fucks up recruitment).

A peace treaty, if honored by both sides would have economic benefits for all parties (increased trade, tourism, etc.).

I hear what you are saying.

Still, the only real economic beneficiaries will be the Palestinians. More benefits might come, but that will take decades.

Further, the Arabs states fear losing control. Remember, they are closed societies.

100 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:55:10pm

re: #97 elbruce

Didn’t Newt Gingrich used to call for a “shame-based” society here? It seems to me we haven’t been immune from that tendency either. Consider the 50’s, or Victorian England.

What does Newt know about shame?

101 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:55:56pm

re: #98 RadicalModerate

Which is why I said it has to be a full-court pressure. If the mideast countries try an embargo, and have no buyers as a fallback, then they get hit hard in their own pocketbooks. The United States has diversified its import strategy where there’s no heavy dependence on any one nation (outside of Canada, currently) so it would be difficult on the US, but not an impossible situation to deal with.

I wish/hope you are right.

102 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:56:14pm

re: #94 researchok

I say that because I believe the rejection of enlightened ideas is deliberate.

An educated society is a dagerous society. An educated society makes demands of it’s leaders.

There is a reason that despite obscene wealth, the Arab world, according the UN Report on Human Development has the second lowest level of education in the world.

Absolutely agreed, and the powers-that-be try to keep their masses uneducated, ramped up on hysteria, paranoia, and conspiracy theories. Which is why I get so very, very disturbed at the Dominionists and other religious zealots over here— they really are exactly the same. Their plan can only work if people are scared, angry, and reject Enlightenment values.

But there is a reason why Saudi Arabia has to import scientists, engineers, etc; they are not very good at producing them, since they are not very good at actually educating people. And when they go abroad for education, they often don’t go back.

It is a cycle that is very hard to break.

103 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 1:59:14pm

re: #99 researchok

I hear what you are saying.

Still, the only real economic beneficiaries will be the Palestinians. More benefits might come, but that will take decades.

Further, the Arabs states fear losing control. Remember, they are closed societies.

Closed societies that invented the concept of trade. And you don’t think people’s property values in Israel wouldn’t go up if they could say “no longer in a rocket attack zone”…and trade is, after all, a two-way street. Israeli businesses would love to get Palestinian customers just as much as Palestinian businesses would love to get Israeli customers.

104 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:00:36pm

re: #95 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Because the IRA’s political wing made promises they were able to back by controling their militant wing.

Hamas and the PA give you a dumb look and say “We’re only the political wing.”

Largely control the violent wings - there has been consistent drug, protection and other violence perpetrated by loyalist and republican terror group remnants.

No one should imply that ALL violence should cease as a condition - that will be impossible.

105 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:00:46pm

re: #102 Obdicut

Absolutely agreed, and the powers-that-be try to keep their masses uneducated, ramped up on hysteria, paranoia, and conspiracy theories. Which is why I get so very, very disturbed at the Dominionists and other religious zealots over here— they really are exactly the same. Their plan can only work if people are scared, angry, and reject Enlightenment values.

But there is a reason why Saudi Arabia has to import scientists, engineers, etc; they are not very good at producing them, since they are not very good at actually educating people. And when they go abroad for education, they often don’t go back.

It is a cycle that is very hard to break.

You are absolutely right re the Evangelicals and Dominionists. They draw they’re lessons from the Mid East. They know that by keeping a population worked up and hysterical they can keep the focus outward. They are more dangerous because unlike the other assorted whack jobs (right or left) these groups already have a toehold on established political platforms.

Scary stuff.

106 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:01:19pm

re: #103 darthstar

Closed societies that invented the concept of trade.

Huh? No society traded prior to the assertion of Arab identity?

107 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:02:07pm

re: #103 darthstar

The societies there now bear very little resemblance to the societies of the past. They were less theocratic then.

108 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:02:28pm

re: #102 Obdicut

Absolutely agreed, and the powers-that-be try to keep their masses uneducated, ramped up on hysteria, paranoia, and conspiracy theories. Which is why I get so very, very disturbed at the Dominionists and other religious zealots over here— they really are exactly the same. Their plan can only work if people are scared, angry, and reject Enlightenment values.

But there is a reason why Saudi Arabia has to import scientists, engineers, etc; they are not very good at producing them, since they are not very good at actually educating people. And when they go abroad for education, they often don’t go back.

It is a cycle that is very hard to break.

That explains the movement to send all the Muslims back to the Middle East! Concern that the brain drain effect is hurting their cultural growth, and only a subtle effort by the enlightened here will help break the cycle by giving those educated here a further incentive to return home.

///

109 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:02:35pm

re: #103 darthstar

Closed societies that invented the concept of trade. And you don’t think people’s property values in Israel wouldn’t go up if they could say “no longer in a rocket attack zone”…and trade is, after all, a two-way street. Israeli businesses would love to get Palestinian customers just as much as Palestinian businesses would love to get Israeli customers.

You may be right. Time will tell. I just don’t believe that change will come to the entire Arab world quickly or easily.

110 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:04:56pm

re: #95 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Because the IRA’s political wing made promises they were able to back by controling their militant wing.


Had to talk to ‘em first. For a long time there was resistance to even doing that.

111 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:05:54pm

re: #104 wozzablog

Largely control the violent wings - there has been consistent drug, protection and other violence perpetrated by loyalist and republican terror group remnants.

No one should imply that ALL violence should cease as a condition - that will be impossible.

True, but in the case of the PA and Hamas, they don’t even pretend like they’re going to control the violence. They wash their hands of the matter and expect to still be taken seriously.

112 lostlakehiker  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:06:15pm

re: #1 spikester

glad to know this will all be over in a year

The talks are a long shot, but long shots do come off from time to time. I won’t be holding my breath, but perhaps the horse will indeed learn to sing.

The Egypt-Israel accord has held for decades. If the parties ever did come to an agreement, the peace to which they agreed would be so much more agreeable than the low key war they now find themselves locked in, that it too might hold up.

113 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:08:00pm

re: #110 elbruce

Had to talk to ‘em first. For a long time there was resistance to even doing that.

Are you saying Hamas is like the IRA?

114 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:08:15pm

re: #111 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

True, but in the case of the PA and Hamas, they don’t even pretend like they’re going to control the violence. They wash their hands of the matter and expect to still be taken seriously.

A major dial down in violence has to happen - and like the NI terrorists that can pretty much only be done by the moderately less violent people telling the really violent people that peace is in their own economic interests and (primarily) in the wider interests of the community.

115 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:08:39pm

re: #113 researchok

Are you saying Hamas is like the IRA?

Well, there is that whole blowing-up-people element.

116 deranged cat  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:10:01pm

re: #101 researchok

you know, everytime i see your username i see “resear chok”, which reminds me of “research klok”, which reminds me of “dethklok”, which makes me think that you look like this guy.

117 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:10:07pm

re: #115 EmmmieG

Well, there is that whole blowing-up-people element.

Yes, I don’t recall the IRA’s calls to genocide.

Or racism. Or bigotry.

But what do I know?

118 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:10:41pm

re: #115 EmmmieG

Well, there is that whole blowing-up-people element.

and the IRA didn’t really like the Jewish people all that much either……….

119 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:11:15pm

re: #116 deranged cat

you know, everytime i see your username i see “resear chok”, which reminds me of “research klok”, which reminds me of “dethklok”, which makes me think that you look like this guy.

LOLOL

I had that taken at Sear Photo Studio.

The camera really does add 10 lbs.

120 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:11:50pm

re: #117 researchok

Yes, I don’t recall the IRA’s calls to genocide.

Or racism. Or bigotry.

But what do I know?


not a helluva lot.

Racism and Bigotry were two of the major calling cards of the IRA.

Trying to be black/gay/Jewish or Chinese in NI was not and is not fun.

121 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:12:01pm

re: #14 Obdicut

I think you’re painting the Arab world with a rather broad brush.

I know people who grew up in Palestine, Lebanon, Kuwait, Iraq, who do not have the values you describe.

Basically, the Palestinians have been faced with a choice: keep twisting in the breeze in the hope that the rest of the Arab world will successfully get them all of Israel, or sit down and deal hard with Israel to get something that’s better than nothing and might lead to a functioning state.

So far the choice has been to go on twisting.

122 lostlakehiker  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:12:36pm

re: #102 Obdicut

Absolutely agreed, and the powers-that-be try to keep their masses uneducated, ramped up on hysteria, paranoia, and conspiracy theories. Which is why I get so very, very disturbed at the Dominionists and other religious zealots over here— they really are exactly the same. Their plan can only work if people are scared, angry, and reject Enlightenment values.

But there is a reason why Saudi Arabia has to import scientists, engineers, etc; they are not very good at producing them, since they are not very good at actually educating people. And when they go abroad for education, they often don’t go back.

It is a cycle that is very hard to break.

Part of not being very good at education is not being very good at studying. The princes have an entitlement mentality that unfits them for the psychologically taxing business of being a student. A student knows that he does not yet know, accepts that he needs tutelage and occasional correction, and recognizes that this is not a humiliation but a stage in the passage from novice to expert.

Princes, and particularly, Saudi Princes, are famed for their rejection of all that. Some defect from the mindset of false pride and do learn, but they’re precisely the ones most likely to go another mile and stay to live in a society where their new-found mindset is the cultural norm rather than an anomaly and a liability.

123 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:12:40pm

re: #15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

There is a solution. Let Israel engage them and fight to win.

And when Israel wins, what then? As Burt Reynolds said, in the movie, Fuzz, we tried that. It didn’t work.

124 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:13:07pm

re: #109 researchok

You may be right. Time will tell. I just don’t believe that change will come to the entire Arab world quickly or easily.

Well, I wouldn’t expect it to come any faster than the acceptance of an African American president in the United States has (as evidenced by our beloved Teabaggers). Just look at the skepticism in this thread (and we’re all 6-8,000 miles away from the action, and are hardly, if at all, affected by whatever happens—as a general rule, I know some people here actually have family living over there).

125 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:13:22pm

re: #117 researchok

Yes, I don’t recall the IRA’s calls to genocide.

Or racism. Or bigotry.

But what do I know?


I am not claiming they are identical. However, the IRA was a terrorist organization which used bombs in place of reason or negotiation.

Do I approve of how the Irish were treated over the centuries? Don’t be ridiculous. However, I can’t condone blowing people up.

126 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:13:27pm

re: #118 wozzablog

and the IRA didn’t really like the Jewish people all that much either…

True, but they didn’t promise genocide, either. And they didn’t promulgate the idea of rape as a weapon. And there was no kindergarten ditty that went ‘IRA!IRA! Jews to the gas!

I could go on, but you get the point.

127 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:13:47pm

re: #107 Obdicut

The societies there now bear very little resemblance to the societies of the past. They were less theocratic then.

So was the United States.

128 Cato the Elder  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:14:03pm

Hey, if they both know algebra, this just might work, kids!

129 McSpiff  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:14:44pm

re: #117 researchok

Yes, I don’t recall the IRA’s calls to genocide.

Or racism. Or bigotry.

But what do I know?

Don’t recall bigotry from the IRA? Or the Loyalists? Right, shooting people based on religious denomination, that ain’t bigotry.

130 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:14:50pm

re: #121 SanFranciscoZionist

Basically, the Palestinians have been faced with a choice: keep twisting in the breeze in the hope that the rest of the Arab world will successfully get them all of Israel, or sit down and deal hard with Israel to get something that’s better than nothing and might lead to a functioning state.

So far the choice has been to go on twisting.

Don’t forget the homicidal giant plush animals. While you are twist, make sure you twist your children.

(Actually, yes, I am focused a great deal on the children. Look at my avatar.)

131 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:15:07pm

re: #30 _RememberTonyC

I didn’t make the original comment, researchok did. But I suspect your friends were more enlightened than most others who are from the region. We are fortunate that most of the people from other cultures we encounter are from the higher end of those societies. And since they are likely more educated and enlightened, they have a much more realistic view of the world.

I am overwhelmed with the urge to make a comment about bitterly clinging to guns and religion.

132 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:16:10pm

re: #125 EmmmieG

I am not claiming they are identical. However, the IRA was a terrorist organization which used bombs in place of reason or negotiation.

Do I approve of how the Irish were treated over the centuries? Don’t be ridiculous. However, I can’t condone blowing people up.

I understand the point you are trying to make.

I am differentiating between Hamas and the IRA in the Hamas is fundamentally racist and genocidal in nature. Ultimately, the IRA’s struggle was political.

Hamas is more in line with the KKK than they are with the IRA.

133 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:16:18pm

re: #128 Cato the Elder

Hey, if they both know algebra, this just might work, kids!

Slightly off topic, but funny and related: Last night, Olbermann’s “tweet of the day” was that protesters of the Park51 project shouldn’t use Arabic numbers in reference to 9/11 because it’s too soon after the event (or something to that effect)

134 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:16:38pm

re: #57 darthstar

Remember the good old days when peace talks, however shaky they might have been, were seen as a positive event? Man, I miss those.

I hope. I just don’t hope very hopefully.

135 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:17:00pm

re: #127 darthstar

So was the United States.

The United States didn’t exist. There were a lot of American Indians. Some of them were actually very theocratic.

If you mean that we’re more theocratic now than we were at our founding, I’d agree with that.

136 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:17:12pm

Muslim-Americans launch PR initiatives, promote Sept. 11 as day of national service

In an effort to push back against negative views of Islam and Muslims, grassroots Muslim groups are launching a series of initiatives to convey to non-Muslim-Americans that they are also Americans.

The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) released a series of advertisements today that will run on national television, clearly intended to counter some of the furor over the proposed mosque near Ground Zero. In one spot, a New York firefighter who was a first responder after the Sept. 11 attacks talks about losing a loved one before announcing that he is a Muslim.

Claims that Islamists are trying to steal the holy day of 9/11 in 5..4..3..

137 Varek Raith  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:17:21pm

re: #132 researchok

A terrorist group is a terrorist group. Period.

138 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:17:32pm

re: #63 Charles

Uh, speaking of peace talks, I got a “goodbye cruel world” email from Spare O’Lake.

I hope you mean a leaving LGF mail, rather than a leaving the world mail?

139 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:17:35pm

re: #135 Obdicut

The United States didn’t exist. There were a lot of American Indians. Some of them were actually very theocratic.

If you mean that we’re more theocratic now than we were at our founding, I’d agree with that.

The latter.

140 deranged cat  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:17:56pm

re: #138 SanFranciscoZionist

i was gonna ask the same thing.

141 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:18:09pm

re: #132 researchok

I understand the point you are trying to make.

I am differentiating between Hamas and the IRA in the Hamas is fundamentally racist and genocidal in nature. Ultimately, the IRA’s struggle was political.

Hamas is more in line with the KKK than they are with the IRA.


Political/religious. It appalls me how much those two go together in the history of the world.

142 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:18:12pm

re: #129 McSpiff

Don’t recall bigotry from the IRA? Or the Loyalists? Right, shooting people based on religious denomination, that ain’t bigotry.

There is an enormous difference. The IRA, et al, ultimately wanted a political solution. Hamas does not. They have made clear their genocidal intent.

143 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:18:21pm

re: #72 Walter L. Newton

I bet everyone is waiting for mine… no dice bucko’s.

Not so much, although occasionally you scare me. It’s when everything coming from a poster is defensive and snide that you worry. You have a whole range.

144 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:18:39pm

re: #126 researchok

True, but they didn’t promise genocide, either. And they didn’t promulgate the idea of rape as a weapon. And there was no kindergarten ditty that went ‘IRA!IRA! Jews to the gas!

I could go on, but you get the point.

I also don’t remember the IRA shooting a pregnant Protestant woman in the belly at point blank and people in Dublin dancing and passing out candy.

Which Hamas has done not just once but twice.

145 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:18:46pm

re: #141 EmmmieG

Political/religious. It appalls me how much those two go together in the history of the world.

Ain’t that the freakin truth.

146 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:18:52pm

re: #113 researchok

Are you saying Hamas is like the IRA?

In that they are a terrorist organization. The situation is similar in many respects. Mind you, you can list all the differences you want (and I don’t know what good you think that can do) but I think the similarities are far more instructive.

You’ve got two groups in the same country separated by religion and history, one of them’s doing bombings via a network with local support, and the other is moving their own voters into the first one’s territory while trying to control the situation primarily through escalating military responses. And everyone in the whole world is convinced that peace is impossible because it’s been going on for almost a century, if not many centuries.

In trying to do something about the problem, you can either find other situations that have similarities and see what can be borrowed from them, or you can pretend this problem is a unique snowflake and that there’ll never be any way to resolve it ever ever. Furthermore, if all of everything that’s wrong is 100% the fault of one one side of the table, then there’s no possibility for any form of negotiation; it’s just one side lecturing the other. So if one is invested in perpetuating the conflict, then your approach is the best one to take; if one is interested in resolving it, then your approach is not.

147 sattv4u2  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:18:53pm

re: #128 Cato the Elder

Hey, if they both know algebra, this just might work, kids!

I thought you were told to make no comments when the subject of math came up!
//

148 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:19:30pm

We get pretty fed up over here of people reminiscing about how lovely and wonderful the IRA were - i was almost blown up by them twice.

149 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:19:46pm

re: #95 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Because the IRA’s political wing made promises they were able to back by controling their militant wing.

Hamas and the PA give you a dumb look and say “We’re only the political wing.”

That’s a big part of it. Despite ongoing problems, the IRA’s militant wing was fairly centralized and could be controlled.

150 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:20:12pm

re: #144 Alouette

I also don’t remember the IRA shooting a pregnant Protestant woman in the belly at point blank and people in Dublin dancing and passing out candy.

Which Hamas has done not just once but twice.

My Hamas outrage is reserved for the sniper who killed that little girl, Shalhevet Pass- and how his actions were applauded.

151 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:20:42pm

re: #100 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

What does Newt know about shame?

Newt knows that shame is something an upper-class man uses to control others, but does not feel himself. That makes it awfully appealing to him.

152 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:20:44pm

re: #132 researchok

I understand the point you are trying to make.

I am differentiating between Hamas and the IRA in the Hamas is fundamentally racist and genocidal in nature. Ultimately, the IRA’s struggle was political.

Hamas is more in line with the KKK than they are with the IRA.

No, the IRA was also racist. The Protestant Ulsterites really are considered more than just religiously different. In addition, the IRA was sincerely anti-English. And this history goes back a millennium.

153 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:20:54pm

re: #137 Varek Raith

A terrorist group is a terrorist group. Period.

unless it’s an Islamic terrorist group. natch.
/

154 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:22:11pm

re: #144 Alouette

I also don’t remember the IRA shooting a pregnant Protestant woman in the belly at point blank and people in Dublin dancing and passing out candy.

Which Hamas has done not just once but twice.

Well, the IRA did indeed kill a pregnant woman.


Aug 15 1998 - Twenty nine people including nine children and a woman pregnant with twins killed in Real IRA car bombing of the market town of Omagh in County Tyrone, Northern Ireland.
155 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:22:11pm

re: #150 researchok

My Hamas outrage is reserved for the sniper who killed that little girl, Shalhevet Pass- and how his actions were applauded.

I’m not sure if that was Hamas. Could have been Fatah.

156 sattv4u2  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:22:19pm

re: #137 Varek Raith

re: #153 wozzablog

Great

Now I’ll have the Mister Ed show theme song playing in my head all noght !!

GGGRRRR!!!

157 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:22:20pm

re: #107 Obdicut

The societies there now bear very little resemblance to the societies of the past. They were less theocratic then.

And plenty of Arab countries aren’t theocratic in any sense. Egypt isn’t. It’s far from perfect, but it ain’t a theocracy. There are several different political models operating in the Arab world. None of them are, say, Norway, but they’re diverse enough to indicate the range of possibilities.

158 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:22:35pm

re: #152 Obdicut

No, the IRA was also racist. The Protestant Ulsterites really are considered more than just religiously different. In addition, the IRA was sincerely anti-English. And this history goes back a millennium.

Yes, but that racism was driven by politics. The racism is secondary to the politics.

Hamas policy is predicated on racism and bigotry- and that is what drives their politics. There is a difference.

159 Varek Raith  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:23:02pm

re: #156 sattv4u2

re: #153 wozzablog

Great

Now I’ll have the Mister Ed show theme song playing in my head all noght !!

GGGRRR!!!

You’re welcome!

160 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:23:19pm

re: #15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

There is a solution. Let Israel engage them and fight to win.

What does “win” mean? The more military pressure you put on the Palestinian community, the more hardline their terrorists network becomes. Therefore, only way to militarily defeat any group defined by race/religion/culture is to kill every last man, woman and child of that group. Is that what you’re advocating?

161 sattv4u2  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:23:27pm

re: #159 Varek Raith

You’re welcome!

Thanks ,, WWiiiiiillllll- Buurr!

162 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:23:33pm

re: #157 SanFranciscoZionist

Sorry, I am leaving out Egypt, it’s true. It’s a difficult region to talk about— I don’t want to refer to the Muslim world, since that includes lots of non-Middle Eastern states. Arab leaves out Iran. And Egypt is far better than the others.

163 Winny Spencer  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:23:34pm

re: #154 Obdicut

That was a splinter-group.

164 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:24:08pm

indiscriminate bombings with no warning that killed innocent people.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

now lets all give the IRA a great big hand for being such great sports………..

165 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:25:01pm

re: #154 Obdicut

Well, the IRA did indeed kill a pregnant woman.

Point-blank in the belly? If you’re referring to random bombing attacks, there were plenty of pregnant woman, children and infants killed at Sbarro’s, at ice cream parlors, Bar Mitzvah parties, Passover seders, buses, etc.

It just takes a certain kind of monster to look a woman in the eyes and then double tap her unborn fetus while she is begging for her life.

166 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:25:12pm

re: #155 Alouette

I’m not sure if that was Hamas. Could have been Fatah.

Thanks for that clarification. I’m not sure, either, though in the end, I don’t believe it makes a difference.

Every time I saw a picture of that child, I saw my daughters face. I hada hard time with that.

Her murder was a slow, deliberate event. It was calculated and cold.

167 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:25:12pm

re: #158 researchok

Yes, but that racism was driven by politics. The racism is secondary to the politics.
.

I don’t know how you make that distinction, when it’s one group that considers itself a ‘race’ waging a war for independent control of what it considers its country from another ‘race’.


Hamas policy is predicated on racism and bigotry- and that is what drives their politics. There is a difference

It’s a difference far too fine for me to see. The IRA used nationalism, racism, religious fervor, and past grudges to justify their cause.

168 Varek Raith  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:25:30pm

re: #158 researchok

I…uh…
You seem to be… downplaying the IRA…

169 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:26:06pm

re: #144 Alouette

I also don’t remember the IRA shooting a pregnant Protestant woman in the belly at point blank and people in Dublin dancing and passing out candy.

Which Hamas has done not just once but twice.

The IRA was contained not because they were good, but because they were in a much more controlled environment.

Remember, these guys trained with the PLO. Let’s not start romanticizing them now, simply because they never had the range to act out their worst impulses.

170 Charles Johnson  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:26:07pm

re: #138 SanFranciscoZionist

I hope you mean a leaving LGF mail, rather than a leaving the world mail?

Yes, the former.

171 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:26:32pm

fuck it.

seriously, fuck it.

i’m not playing a game of terrorist bridge (3 no trump) with people tonight.


laters.

172 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:26:43pm

re: #160 elbruce

What does “win” mean? The more military pressure you put on the Palestinian community, the more hardline their terrorists network becomes. Therefore, only way to militarily defeat any group defined by race/religion/culture is to kill every last man, woman and child of that group. Is that what you’re advocating?

If Hamas leadership came down with a sudden case of waking up dead syndrome, I’m fairly sure it would put a sizeable crimp in their operational plans.

173 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:27:00pm

re: #148 wozzablog

We get pretty fed up over here of people reminiscing about how lovely and wonderful the IRA were - i was almost blown up by them twice.

This Irish-American is right beside you buddy. DAMN!

174 Winny Spencer  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:27:14pm

re: #164 wozzablog

I think you forgot this one.
Your text to link…

175 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:27:15pm

For those with short memories, all that this administration managed to do today is to bring the diplomatic talks to almost the point where GWB left off. (I say “almost” because the demand for a settlement freeze came first from Washington and not from Ramallah, and Abbas couldn’t afford to demand less than Obama.) Two years ago Abbas and Olmert were dining at the PM’s Jerusalem residence and the building freeze wasn’t even a PA demand.

In any case, I think the talks are timed poorly. Just a few weeks ago the tree incident almost triggered a third Lebanon war. Now Hamas is motivated to stymie the talks for their own reasons, and regional antagonists may have their own agendas. These talks present them an opportunity to cause trouble in an already fragile situation.

176 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:27:28pm

re: #165 Alouette

Point-blank in the belly? If you’re referring to random bombing attacks, there were plenty of pregnant woman, children and infants killed at Sbarro’s, at ice cream parlors, Bar Mitzvah parties, Passover seders, buses, etc.

It just takes a certain kind of monster to look a woman in the eyes and then double tap her unborn fetus while she is begging for her life.

I actually think the people who plant bombs are worse, personally. They’re the colder ones.

I really, really hate when people try to make the argument that Hamas is the most evil terrorist organization that ever lived. The British really did spend a long time under terrorist threat, lots of British people really did die from terrorists. I don’t think the dead really care if the terrorist is standing above them or off drinking a pint somewhere. And if they do, I don’t think we can know which they’d loathe more.

They’re all monsters.

177 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:27:59pm

re: #162 Obdicut

Sorry, I am leaving out Egypt, it’s true. It’s a difficult region to talk about— I don’t want to refer to the Muslim world, since that includes lots of non-Middle Eastern states. Arab leaves out Iran. And Egypt is far better than the others.

Then there’s Lebanon, which isn’t a theocracy…and Jordan…and Kuwait…

178 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:28:14pm

re: #167 Obdicut

I don’t know how you make that distinction, when it’s one group that considers itself a ‘race’ waging a war for independent control of what it considers its country from another ‘race’.

It’s a difference far too fine for me to see. The IRA used nationalism, racism, religious fervor, and past grudges to justify their cause.

Interesting points.

Still, the IRA came to it’s ‘religious’ identity later in the game. It was- and remains- primarily a political movement.

Hamas was and remains primarily a religious- and racist movement

179 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:28:51pm

re: #170 Charles

Yes, the former.

Thank God.

OK.

180 sattv4u2  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:29:03pm

EARL UPDATE (kinda)

I arrived at Pawleys Island South Carolina about 40 minutes ago.
All’s quiet. Talked to a shop owner who said the place started clearing out 2 days ago. Full time residents (for the most part) have stayed. Storm isn’t expected to hit land here, more like 200 or so miles north of here

Still, it’s good to see the tourists took the cautious route.

ME ,,I’m going to move some stuff inside and drive back to Atlanta. No use me being here IF Earl decides to come straight west and slam into land here

181 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:30:48pm

re: #176 Obdicut

I actually think the people who plant bombs are worse, personally. They’re the colder ones.

I really, really hate when people try to make the argument that Hamas is the most evil terrorist organization that ever lived. The British really did spend a long time under terrorist threat, lots of British people really did die from terrorists. I don’t think the dead really care if the terrorist is standing above them or off drinking a pint somewhere. And if they do, I don’t think we can know which they’d loathe more.

They’re all monsters.

If I was forced to, I’d probably vote for the IRA over Hamas. Fortunately, no one can make me.

But there is a lot of frickin’ evil in the world.

I’m always interested in how the conversation around here goes dead when the Tamil Tigers come up. They so don’t fit the profile.

Neither do those carrying out assorted genocides in Africa for the most part.

182 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:31:19pm

Can you imagine what the Abbas/Netanyahu/US team meetings are like?

183 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:31:20pm

re: #177 darthstar

Then there’s Lebanon, which isn’t a theocracy…and Jordan…and Kuwait…

Syria’s not a theocracy. It’s a horrific shithole, but not a theocracy!

184 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:32:01pm

re: #158 researchok

Yes, but that racism was driven by politics. The racism is secondary to the politics.

Hamas policy is predicated on racism and bigotry- and that is what drives their politics. There is a difference.

That’s analysis, not fact.

185 captdiggs  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:33:04pm

re: #142 researchok

There is an enormous difference. The IRA, et al, ultimately wanted a political solution. Hamas does not. They have made clear their genocidal intent.

Correct. The IRA never had a goal of the extermination of England.
Comparisons of the IRA and Hamas, Hezbollah, et al, always fail on that point alone.

186 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:33:12pm

re: #181 SanFranciscoZionist

The Tigers use of suicide bombers makes the Palis look like amateurs by comparison

187 sattv4u2  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:33:20pm

he conversation around here goes dead when the Tamil Tigers come up.

That part of the world gets very little notice, so we don’t hear/ research about them much. But you are spot on. The atrocities they commit every bit as heinous as what the PLO do

188 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:33:25pm

re: #176 Obdicut

I actually think the people who plant bombs are worse, personally. They’re the colder ones.

I really, really hate when people try to make the argument that Hamas is the most evil terrorist organization that ever lived. The British really did spend a long time under terrorist threat, lots of British people really did die from terrorists. I don’t think the dead really care if the terrorist is standing above them or off drinking a pint somewhere. And if they do, I don’t think we can know which they’d loathe more.

They’re all monsters.

And therein lies the truth.

The Israelis are being asked to treat Hamas as if they were a ‘different kind of terrorist organization one that has a kind of legitimacy.

That is an outrage.

189 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:34:09pm

Well, I was trying to find an article I had read on honor vs. dignity, but I find it’s not something I want to post right now. I’ll summarize.

However, the main point of the article is that dignity is a fairly stable thing. Honor leads to violence. Dignity is internal and cannot be stolen. Honor is the perception of others and can be stolen. Dignity requires that you marshal your self-control. Honor requires that you duel.

Have I ever mentioned that I detest Aaron Burr for killing Hamilton? I must have.

190 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:34:51pm

re: #172 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If Hamas leadership came down with a sudden case of waking up dead syndrome, I’m fairly sure it would put a sizeable crimp in their operational plans.


For a little bit, until the next iteration uses that “crimp” to come back even stronger.

Only the supporting population can give a terrorist movement its walking papers. You get them to do that by giving them a viable alternative peace option to supporting terrorist networks. You can’t just “kill all the terrorists,” unless you’re willing to commit complete genocide against that population.

191 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:35:26pm

re: #187 sattv4u2

he conversation around here goes dead when the Tamil Tigers come up.

That part of the world gets very little notice, so we don’t hear/ research about them much. But you are spot on. The atrocities they commit every bit as heinous as what the PLO do

Hell yes.

The atrocities in East Timor, too, were ignored- and they were horrific.

Rape in the Congo has reached epidemic proportions and we see or hear very little. Why? Because the UN Human Rights Commission has a whole other agenda.

192 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:35:45pm

re: #177 darthstar

Then there’s Lebanon, which isn’t a theocracy…and Jordan…and Kuwait…

Sigh. Jordan does have a lot more religious freedom, but they both have Islamic courts and will not allow any Jew to practice Judaism there. It’s also a monarchy, and though it’s constitutional it’s more on the line of Henry VIII England than it is a really modern constitutional monarchy. You’re also right that Kuwait is not a theocracy, just an oligarchy.

And Lebanon, indeed, is not theocratic— their reason for not wanting to accept Palestinian refugees, actually, is that it would upset that balance.

However: In all these countries, the Muslim religion holds as much sway as it does in the most Dominionist areas of the US. Laws have a high tendency to coincide with Islamic values; I am perfectly willing to call the law in Oklahoma a theocratic law, so, to me, Kuwait and Jordan are still, indeed, theocracies because their laws are so intertwined with Islam.

193 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:37:58pm

re: #190 elbruce

For a little bit, until the next iteration uses that “crimp” to come back even stronger.

Only the supporting population can give a terrorist movement its walking papers. You get them to do that by giving them a viable alternative peace option to supporting terrorist networks. You can’t just “kill all the terrorists,” unless you’re willing to commit complete genocide against that population.

It takes a generation to change. Don’t kill the daddies, and the sons won’t grow up with a reason to want revenge. The people we’re fighting in Afghanistan now were eight years old when we liberated them from the Taliban’s rule.

194 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:38:45pm

re: #186 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The Tigers use of suicide bombers makes the Palis look like amateurs by comparison

But, to be perfectly honest, most people having this discussion here don’t care, because the people they killed were not important to us.

Difference between Katrina and this flood mess in Pakistan.

195 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:39:00pm

re: #177 darthstar

Then there’s Lebanon, which isn’t a theocracy…and Jordan…and Kuwait…

I can’t believe nobody’s mentioned Turkey in this context yet.

196 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:40:07pm

re: #195 elbruce

I can’t believe nobody’s mentioned Turkey in this context yet.

They’re not Arabs, though, and have a very specific political tradition.

197 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:40:17pm

re: #195 elbruce

I can’t believe nobody’s mentioned Turkey in this context yet.

Ah, yes…Turkey too…I figured I was forgetting a few countries. But I think the generalization is meant to be taken at face value.

198 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:40:44pm

re: #190 elbruce

For a little bit, until the next iteration uses that “crimp” to come back even stronger.

Only the supporting population can give a terrorist movement its walking papers. You get them to do that by giving them a viable alternative peace option to supporting terrorist networks. You can’t just “kill all the terrorists,” unless you’re willing to commit complete genocide against that population.

Ideally, you find an ally inside the enemy camp who you can work with to drive the hostiles out of power and establish peaceful relations after that.

If Abbas could be trusted, then the Israelis could back him in a move to eliminate Hamas politically and militarily and establish a long term plan for negotiations.

The problem now being that Abbas cannot be trusted.

199 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:41:39pm

re: #182 researchok

Can you imagine what the Abbas/Netanyahu/US team meetings are like?

Abbas: Gimme, gimme, gimme.

Bibi: Well, I think that first we should…

Obama: Give him.

200 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:42:08pm

re: #196 SanFranciscoZionist

They’re not Arabs, though, and have a very specific political tradition.


Hey, Iran isn’t Arabs either. But that specific political tradition is based around a firm commitment to secular government in an Islamic society, something they’ve had to struggle for more than once. So I’d say it’s highly relevant.

201 Winny Spencer  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:42:11pm

re: #176 Obdicut

And the Catholics of Northern Ireland who not only lived as second class citiziens in a gerrymandered region, but had to worry about Loyalist death squads kicking down their front doors at night. Death squads who colluded with the British security forces.

There were plenty of evil people who were active during the troubles and far from all of them were Irish Republicans.

202 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:42:20pm

re: #178 researchok

Interesting points.

Still, the IRA came to it’s ‘religious’ identity later in the game. It was- and remains- primarily a political movement.

Hamas was and remains primarily a religious- and racist movement

I really don’t understand what you mean by ‘political’, I guess. They’re a nationalistic, ethnic movement. And yes, it really was a religoius conflict from the start— the McMahon family can tell you that.

The McMahon’s were not involved in politics to any great extent, and were killed because they were Catholics, as reprisals against the IRA.

The violence in Belfast was very much Protestant-vs-Catholic, at the very beginning of the Troubles. I don’t see how you can say it wasn’t as religious as it was political— one both sides.

203 Gus  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:42:41pm

History tells me to be cynical but for now I will remain optimistic. If not now there is always the future. Bibi has been very gracious and pro-active in these talks.

204 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:43:04pm

re: #201 Winny Spencer

Yes. Please see my #202.

205 sattv4u2  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:43:27pm

re: #199 Alouette

Abbas: Gimme, gimme, gimme.

Bibi: Well, I think that first we should…

Obama: Give him.

Why do I feel like I’m about to see yet another instance when Good Ole’ Charlie Brown thinks that yes, this time, Lucy is REALLY REALLY gonna let him kick that football!!!

206 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:44:04pm

re: #197 darthstar

Turkey isn’t ethnically Arab.

Of course, ethnic divisions are all pretty much bullshit anyway.

What a medieval mess.

207 TedStriker  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:44:04pm

re: #63 Charles

Uh, speaking of peace talks, I got a “goodbye cruel world” email from Spare O’Lake.

As with Mandy, this trainwreck has been in slow motion for a long time.

208 decatur deb  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:45:06pm

re: #77 researchok

You do know that Gerry Adams is considered a terrorist by the US, right?

Wiki has him attending the inauguration:

“In January 2009, Adams attended the United States presidential Inauguration of Barack Obama as a guest of US Congressman Richard Neal.[35]”

209 captdiggs  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:46:04pm

re: #198 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Abbas’ power is very limited. Hamas holds sway over half the population and the palestinians have been inculcating hatred of Jews for generations.
Any deal Abbas makes is likely to anger half or more of the palestinians making implementation realistically impossible considering that the Palestinians have had a virtual civil war going on since the Hamas coup in Gaza.
Then you also have the Iran and Hezbollah factors which will also want to throw a monkey wrench into any deal that does not include the elimination of Israel as a state.

210 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:46:12pm

re: #198 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ideally, you find an ally inside the enemy camp who you can work with to drive the hostiles out of power and establish peaceful relations after that.

If Abbas could be trusted, then the Israelis could back him in a move to eliminate Hamas politically and militarily and establish a long term plan for negotiations.

The problem now being that Abbas cannot be trusted.

When you’re referring to all of the Palestinian people as “the enemy camp,” I have a little problem trusting your opinion about who can’t be trusted.

It seems to me that the real problem right now is the infighting; in Ireland, there was exactly one clear terrorist wing and one clear political wing. So Britain could negotiate with the political wing, and they in turn could deal with the terrorist wing. But when you’ve got multiple competing groups on both the terrorist and political sides of the equation, that process isn’t effective.

211 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:47:49pm

re: #209 captdiggs

Then you also have the Iran and Hezbollah factors which will also want to throw a monkey wrench into any deal that does not include the elimination of Israel as a state.

There’s a good reason you’re not part of the peace talks.

212 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:48:24pm

re: #202 Obdicut

I really don’t understand what you mean by ‘political’, I guess. They’re a nationalistic, ethnic movement. And yes, it really was a religoius conflict from the start— the McMahon family can tell you that.

The McMahon’s were not involved in politics to any great extent, and were killed because they were Catholics, as reprisals against the IRA.

The violence in Belfast was very much Protestant-vs-Catholic, at the very beginning of the Troubles. I don’t see how you can say it wasn’t as religious as it was political— one both sides.

They wanted the English out of Ulster, to reunite the entire Island.

They weren’t happy with the referendum, knowing full well the Protestants would vote to stay aligned with the Queen.

There is a reason successive Irish governments wanted nothing to do with the IRA.

213 captdiggs  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:49:01pm

re: #211 darthstar

Just pointing out facts.

214 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:49:15pm

re: #212 researchok

Agreed. But the conflict was defined upon religious and ethnic lines from the very start.

215 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:49:52pm

re: #210 elbruce

The Palistinians and Israelis have been at war for decades now. The enemy camp is a prefectly valid description of the opposing forces.

216 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:50:06pm

re: #212 researchok

They weren’t happy with the referendum, knowing full well the Protestants would vote to stay aligned with the Queen.


That’s what happens when you have a campaign of moving people who are loyal to you into the other side’s territory - it rigs future elections so that any democratic solution ends up favoring you. Lots of parallels here.

217 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:50:40pm

re: #214 Obdicut

Agreed. But the conflict was defined upon religious and ethnic lines from the very start.

The Irish in general have no problem with Protestants in Ireland.

The religious aspect in Ulster, in my opinion was contrived.

218 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:50:52pm

re: #215 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The Palistinians and Israelis have been at war for decades now. The enemy camp is a prefectly valid description of the opposing forces.


If 100% of the Palestinian populace is Israel’s enemy, then peace is not possible. If you oppose peace, then just come out and say so.

219 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:52:18pm

re: #217 researchok

The Irish in general have no problem with Protestants in Ireland.

The religious aspect in Ulster, in my opinion was contrived.

I just don’t understand how you can say that, in the light of the reprisals occurring directly upon religious lines, not political ones. As I said, the McMahons were not killed for their politics, but because they were prominent Catholics.

220 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:52:22pm

re: #217 researchok

The Irish in general have no problem with Protestants in Ireland.

The religious aspect in Ulster, in my opinion was contrived.

O_o

They had a huge problem with it back then! You go back in time and try telling them the religious aspect was “contrived.”

221 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:52:38pm

re: #218 elbruce

If 100% of the Palestinian populace is Israel’s enemy, then peace is not possible. If you oppose peace, then just come out and say so.

I have never said I oppose peace. I have said its impossible to achieve with rulers like Hamas and Fatah running things.

222 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:53:15pm

re: #216 elbruce

That’s what happens when you have a campaign of moving people who are loyal to you into the other side’s territory - it rigs future elections so that any democratic solution ends up favoring you. Lots of parallels here.

Ulster was always loyal to the Crown, made up mostly of English immigrants from way back.

There was an election. The Irish voted or cessation, save for Ulster.

England recognized that vote and gave up home rule, save for Ulster.

223 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:53:36pm

re: #200 elbruce

Hey, Iran isn’t Arabs either. But that specific political tradition is based around a firm commitment to secular government in an Islamic society, something they’ve had to struggle for more than once. So I’d say it’s highly relevant.

Well, I thought we were leaving Iran out on ethnic grounds as well.

224 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:54:42pm

re: #220 elbruce

O_o

They had a huge problem with it back then! You go back in time and try telling them the religious aspect was “contrived.”

Right. Protestants in Dublin and the south were persecuted and hunted down like they were in Ulster.

Right.

225 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:55:57pm

re: #218 elbruce

If 100% of the Palestinian populace is Israel’s enemy, then peace is not possible. If you oppose peace, then just come out and say so.

Political blocks don’t happen in terms of 100% of the populace. Israel and the Palestinian Authority are not on good terms, let’s put it like THAT.

226 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:56:05pm

re: #220 elbruce

O_o

They had a huge problem with it back then! You go back in time and try telling them the religious aspect was “contrived.”


And they still have laws requiring businesses to hire equal numbers of Catholics and Protestants. I did a lot of work in Belfast for a previous company, and learned a lot about how Cs and Ps get along. There are bars where both go and get along, then there are Catholic bars and Protestant bars. I’m happy to report that I managed to get shitty drunk at each type of establishment (the joys of being an Irish-American who doesn’t give a shit about other people’s hang-ups). Had a great time in all of them, and the Protestants treated me just as well as anyone else did.

227 harlequinade  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:56:37pm

re: #176 Obdicut

I actually think the people who plant bombs are worse, personally. They’re the colder ones.

I really, really hate when people try to make the argument that Hamas is the most evil terrorist organization that ever lived. The British really did spend a long time under terrorist threat, lots of British people really did die from terrorists. I don’t think the dead really care if the terrorist is standing above them or off drinking a pint somewhere. And if they do, I don’t think we can know which they’d loathe more.

They’re all monsters.

This. This all the time.

And not just in relation to Israel/Palestine - also 9/11. We don’t talk about Harrods or Brighton being Hallowed ground - hell, we didn’t call it a war, because that would legitimise the enemy.

Thank you for pointing this out

228 Winny Spencer  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:57:51pm

re: #222 researchok

Ulster was always loyal to the Crown, made up mostly of Scottish immigrants from way back.

There was an election. The Irish voted or cessation, save for Ulster.

England recognized that vote and gave up home rule, save for Ulster.

Nitpick.

229 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:58:19pm

re: #222 researchok

Ulster was always loyal to the Crown, made up mostly of English immigrants from way back.
.


Not really. The Scottish immigrants were the most numerous, though many of them had left for America, they were still more numerous than the English settlers. The original English planters were massacred and dispossessed once, and though more returned, they never gained a majority. The scots-Irish did have a majority there. I don’t know the final figures.

230 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:58:29pm

re: #226 darthstar

And they still have laws requiring businesses to hire equal numbers of Catholics and Protestants. I did a lot of work in Belfast for a previous company, and learned a lot about how Cs and Ps get along. There are bars where both go and get along, then there are Catholic bars and Protestant bars. I’m happy to report that I managed to get shitty drunk at each type of establishment (the joys of being an Irish-American who doesn’t give a shit about other people’s hang-ups). Had a great time in all of them, and the Protestants treated me just as well as anyone else did.

I recall reading an article by an Irish-American cop who participated in a program where they took a Catholic and a Protestant kid from the north each, and had them live together for a month in a host family in the States.

He asked the kids if they knew whether he was a Catholic or a Protestant. The Protestant kid didn’t know. The Catholic kid said, “You’re a Catholic.” Asked how he knew, he explained his father was friends with some people with the same last name.

231 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:59:10pm

re: #228 Winny Spencer

Nitpick.

Yup, you’re right.

I’ve been from home for too long.

I shall eat haggis tonight in penance.

232 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 2:59:11pm

re: #143 SanFranciscoZionist

Not so much, although occasionally you scare me. It’s when everything coming from a poster is defensive and snide that you worry. You have a whole range.

Scare? Ha… sorry, I’m not a brain-dead milk toast… I am not afraid to open my mouth and speak my mind. Scare… classic.

233 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:00:05pm

re: #229 Obdicut

Not really. The Scottish immigrants were the most numerous, though many of them had left for America, they were still more numerous than the English settlers. The original English planters were massacred and dispossessed once, and though more returned, they never gained a majority. The scots-Irish did have a majority there. I don’t know the final figures.

Yup, Winnie picked up on my error, too.

I shall eat two portions of haggis,

234 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:00:17pm

re: #230 SanFranciscoZionist

I recall reading an article by an Irish-American cop who participated in a program where they took a Catholic and a Protestant kid from the north each, and had them live together for a month in a host family in the States.

He asked the kids if they knew whether he was a Catholic or a Protestant. The Protestant kid didn’t know. The Catholic kid said, “You’re a Catholic.” Asked how he knew, he explained his father was friends with some people with the same last name.

Yep…I had a friend/colleague who, when we were getting off work I told I was hitting a pub near my hotel and did he want to go have a pint. He said, “Sorry, not with my Catholic name…and yours! What the hell are you going there for?” I simply said, “It’s close to my hotel and they have a pool table.”

235 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:00:29pm

re: #230 SanFranciscoZionist

I recall reading an article by an Irish-American cop who participated in a program where they took a Catholic and a Protestant kid from the north each, and had them live together for a month in a host family in the States.

He asked the kids if they knew whether he was a Catholic or a Protestant. The Protestant kid didn’t know. The Catholic kid said, “You’re a Catholic.” Asked how he knew, he explained his father was friends with some people with the same last name.

Zedushka has cousins in Belfast. One of them told him that he was accosted while walking in the street, asked “Are you a Catholic or a Protestant.” He said, “I’m a Jew.” “Yes, but, are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?” He said, “I’m a Jewish Jew.” They knocked him down and stole his hat.

236 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:00:57pm

re: #222 researchok

Ulster was always loyal to the Crown, made up mostly of English immigrants from way back.

There was an election. The Irish voted or cessation, save for Ulster.

England recognized that vote and gave up home rule, save for Ulster.

Right. Starting with King James, England started exporting loyalist colonists to Ulster and giving them land seized from the locals, in order to stock its makeup with English loyalists. It was created to vote that way, on purpose.

237 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:01:43pm

re: #233 researchok

Have you ever watched the film Divorcing Jack?

It’s very good, very depressing.

It contains a sad and hilarious speech by an Ulsterite about who the Ulstermen are.

238 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:05:40pm

re: #229 Obdicut

Not really. The Scottish immigrants were the most numerous, though many of them had left for America, they were still more numerous than the English settlers. The original English planters were massacred and dispossessed once, and though more returned, they never gained a majority. The scots-Irish did have a majority there. I don’t know the final figures.


Which brings up the point that the nationality/ethnicity of the sides could not be used as a determining factor for whether you were green or orange. Only religion could. When religion is the only consistent distinction, saying it wasn’t a primarily religious conflict fails.

(As a sidebar, does anybody else find that whole St. Patrick’s day “pinch you if you’re not wearing green” kid’s tradition is so clearly an evolution of calls to anti-Protestant violence?)

239 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:05:58pm

re: #236 elbruce

Right. Starting with King James, England started exporting loyalist colonists to Ulster and giving them land seized from the locals, in order to stock its makeup with English loyalists. It was created to vote that way, on purpose.

And?

240 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:06:38pm

re: #238 elbruce

Which brings up the point that the nationality/ethnicity of the sides could not be used as a determining factor for whether you were green or orange. Only religion could. When religion is the only consistent distinction, saying it wasn’t a primarily religious conflict fails.

(As a sidebar, does anybody else find that whole St. Patrick’s day “pinch you if you’re not wearing green” kid’s tradition is so clearly an evolution of calls to anti-Protestant violence?)

I thought it was just middle schoolers being dorky.

241 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:06:51pm

re: #238 elbruce

It feeds back into the ongoing troubles between Catholics and Protestants in England, and in Europe in general. It was one of the last, lingering conflicts from centuries of Protestant-vs-Catholic war.

242 Winny Spencer  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:07:05pm

re: #237 Obdicut

Just read the synopsis and that actually sounds like a film worth watching.

243 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:07:49pm

re: #237 Obdicut

Have you ever watched the film Divorcing Jack?

It’s very good, very depressing.

It contains a sad and hilarious speech by an Ulsterite about who the Ulstermen are.

I have not seen it.

I’ll make a point to, now.

Sounds Russian- as in magnificent, depressing, bitter drama.

244 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:07:56pm

re: #239 researchok

And?


And Israel is moving Israeli loyalists into Palestinian areas now.

245 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:08:41pm

re: #242 Winny Spencer

It definitely is. Very, very well-acted, pulls no punches. It is more about the madness of the kind of men that become terrorists than it is about the Troubles as a whole. It’s very, very human.

246 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:08:49pm

re: #235 Alouette

Zedushka has cousins in Belfast. One of them told him that he was accosted while walking in the street, asked “Are you a Catholic or a Protestant.” He said, “I’m a Jew.” “Yes, but, are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?” He said, “I’m a Jewish Jew.” They knocked him down and stole his hat.

LOLOL

I’m going to life that and send a mass email.

247 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:09:02pm
And?

They voted along religious lines, I think is his point. Protestants would support Protestant Great Britain. Catholics would support Catholic Ireland. So the political and religious divisions were one and the same.

248 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:10:58pm

re: #244 elbruce

And Israel is moving Israeli loyalists into Palestinian areas now.

Bummer. Too bad the Palestinians didn’t make peace decades ago.

In the end, it doesn’t matter. Israel has always given up territory for peace or promises of peace.

It is the Palestinians who don’t deliver.

BBIAB

249 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:16:05pm

re: #248 researchok

Bummer. Too bad the Palestinians didn’t make peace decades ago.


So they had their chance, and now peace will not be possible. Just come out and say you oppose peace. Quit dancing around it like a coy troll.


re: #248 researchok

In the end, it doesn’t matter. Israel has always given up territory for peace or promises of peace.

It is the Palestinians who don’t deliver.


“Tell you what, you stop being mad at me and I’ll give you a little of your land back.”

Last time I looked at a map, Israel still controls the borders of all of it. There are a lot of reasons regarding that, but you hardly get to complain about how much land Israel has “given up.”

250 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:18:21pm

re: #249 elbruce

So…can we complain about the missiles that were lobbed into Israel?

What about Sgt. Shalit? Can we complain about him?

The fact that Israel controls the borders didn’t stop any of this.

251 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:22:16pm

re: #250 EmmmieG

So…can we complain about the missiles that were lobbed into Israel?

What about Sgt. Shalit? Can we complain about him?

The fact that Israel controls the borders didn’t stop any of this.

No no no. Those were all done by the militant wing. The political wings are trusted political partners.

252 harlequinade  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:23:42pm

re: #250 EmmmieG

The point I believe the erstwhile elbruce is making is that if you don’t go into peace talks trying to make peace, there’s no point being there. As he said upthreadre: #146 elbruce

You’ve got two groups in the same country separated by religion and history, one of them’s doing bombings via a network with local support, and the other is moving their own voters into the first one’s territory while trying to control the situation primarily through escalating military responses. And everyone in the whole world is convinced that peace is impossible because it’s been going on for almost a century, if not many centuries.

In trying to do something about the problem, you can either find other situations that have similarities and see what can be borrowed from them, or you can pretend this problem is a unique snowflake and that there’ll never be any way to resolve it ever ever. Furthermore, if all of everything that’s wrong is 100% the fault of one one side of the table, then there’s no possibility for any form of negotiation; it’s just one side lecturing the other. So if one is invested in perpetuating the conflict, then your approach is the best one to take; if one is interested in resolving it, then your approach is not.

My bold

253 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:29:31pm

Fine, you guys complain all you want. Have a blast.

The people interested in peace will be over here supporting solutions to peace.

But while you’re complaining, quit pretending you’re one of us.

254 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:31:22pm

re: #253 elbruce

I really think you’re mistaking pessimism for lack of support.

I would love to see Palestine deal with Hamas and gain control over themselves. But right now, they’re not there.

I hope the peace talks will give the moderates credibility and allow them to get Hamas under control.

I just doubt it. Severely.

255 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:32:28pm

re: #253 elbruce

Fine, you guys complain all you want. Have a blast.

The people interested in peace will be over here supporting solutions to peace.

But while you’re complaining, quit pretending you’re one of us.

Every civilized person wants peace.

It’s just that some of us are more realistic than others.

256 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:33:13pm

re: #254 Obdicut

I really think you’re mistaking pessimism for lack of support.

I would love to see Palestine deal with Hamas and gain control over themselves. But right now, they’re not there.

I hope the peace talks will give the moderates credibility and allow them to get Hamas under control.

I just doubt it. Severely.

Considering the historical Hamas position on dealing with moderates is to label them collaborators and execute them, I don’t hold out much hope for the moderates.

257 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:58:48pm

re: #255 researchok

It’s just that some of us are more realistic than others.

No, it’s that some of you are explicitly choosing to highlight rhetoric that makes peace less likely if more people were to listen to your line of argument.

258 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:02:56pm

re: #257 elbruce

No, it’s that some of you are explicitly choosing to highlight rhetoric that makes peace less likely if more people were to listen to your line of argument.

How on earth is highlighting current and passed realities ‘rhetoric’?

259 captdiggs  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:14:09pm

re: #249 elbruce

“Tell you what, you stop being mad at me and I’ll give you a little of your land back.”

For one thing, Israel would not be on the west bank if not for the patently illegal arab war on Israel started in 1948.
For another, the palestinians renounced all sovereignty over the west bank back in 1964.

The essence of this conflict has never been about land, it’s a religious war fed by Islamic intolerance of a non muslim nation in the middle east.
And that has always been the elephant in the room.

260 prairiefire  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:21:50pm

re: #237 Obdicut

Have you ever watched the film Divorcing Jack?

It’s very good, very depressing.

It contains a sad and hilarious speech by an Ulsterite about who the Ulstermen are.

I think David Thewlis is a good actor.

261 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:26:46pm

re: #258 researchok

How on earth is highlighting current and passed realities ‘rhetoric’?

If you don’t know, then I’ve got better things to do than to explain it to you. You do know what “rhetoric” means, right?

262 Turu The Terrible  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 9:23:38pm

re: #235 Alouette

Zedushka has cousins in Belfast. One of them told him that he was accosted while walking in the street, asked “Are you a Catholic or a Protestant.” He said, “I’m a Jew.” “Yes, but, are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?” He said, “I’m a Jewish Jew.” They knocked him down and stole his hat.

I was in an Irish bar in the Bay Area right after 9/11 and there was this “refugee from British tyranny” Provo type (there are quite a few of them in the Bay Area, some probably here illegally) who was ranting and raving about how much he hated the US, Britain and Israel and that “America got what it deserved” for supporting Israel. I was absolutely flabbergasted. Since then I have had little use for the Irish Americans who romanticize the IRA.

I wish I’d been able to get the bastards license plate number and called it in to the British consulate in SF. He could have been someone wanted for a pub or hotel bombing that killed a bunch of women and kids. But his friends hustled him out the door as a few of us were starting to give him stares, and the bartender was beginning to look very uncomfortable.

263 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:12:11pm
264 Winny Spencer  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:47:33pm

re: #263 Spare O’Lake

Sad to see you leave, but take care man.

265 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:47:37pm

No, you don’t get to do that.

266 Jimmah  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 5:48:38pm

re: #264 Winny Spencer

Sad to see you leave, but take care man.

A few words spring to mind on the sad occasion of Spare’s exit from this site. Words like “good”, “riddance”, “you”, “tedious” and “wingnut”.


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