Jan Brewer: Not That Strong a Debater

Politics • Views: 4,108

Jan Brewer, Sharron Angle, Rand Paul, Sarah Palin — representatives of the new breed of Republicans who refuse to answer any questions about their views, refuse to engage in debate with their opponents (and are pathetically bad on the rare occasions when they do), completely avoid the media, and just keep repeating far right talking points like robotic parrots: Brewer: No more debates - period.

Arizona Governor Jan Brewer says she only debated her Democratic opponent Terry Goddard for the money, anyway. And she got paid, so what’s the point of any more discussion?

PHOENIX - Arizona voters won’t be seeing any more debates between the top gubernatorial contenders.

Incumbent Republican Jan Brewer said Thursday she has no intention of participating in any more events with Democrat Terry Goddard. She said the only reason she debated him on Wednesday is she had to to qualify for more than $1.7 million in public funds for her campaign.

“I certainly will take my message in a different venue out to the people of Arizona,” she said.

It’s becoming a real trend. Has right wing American politics reached such a fever pitch of insanity that this is now a winning strategy — to simply cut yourself off from all possible challenges to your views, and run away from reporters?

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432 comments
1 Why I Never!  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 10:51:45am

Has right wing American politics reached such a fever pitch of insanity that this is now a winning strategy — to simply cut yourself off from all possible challenges to your views, and run away from reporters?

Yes. Because it’s worked for Palin.

2 Gus  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 10:52:53am

No more debate? That too funny. It’s almost like being an actor and saying you won’t do anymore auditions.

3 RadicalModerate  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 10:53:14am

Calling Jan Brewer “not that strong a debater” would be like calling the Atlantic Ocean “not a small body of water”.

4 iossarian  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 10:53:31am

Sadly, this is the more or less inevitable conclusion of Americans allowing media (and other) corporations to take over the sphere of political discourse, under the banner of “free speech”.

I’m an optimistic kind of person, but in this particular area I can’t see things getting better without some kind of external driver.

5 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 10:54:33am

Anyone recognize the headline reference?

6 brookly red  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 10:55:36am

re: #2 Gus 802

No more debate? That too funny. It’s almost like being an actor and saying you won’t do anymore auditions.

It kinda makes sense in a bad way… why debate and step in harms way? The battle for hearts & minds will be fought by proxies on-line, no?

7 webevintage  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 10:56:10am

Grizzly Mama!!!
Not a quitter, but a reloader!!!11!!!
/

(actually Brewer needs to do her job and get the state police to arrest that idiot Arpaio who refuses to cooperate with the justice department. it is a dangerous thing when a county Sheriff decides he can tell the Feds to fuck off and the Governor seems to support him.)

8 Gus  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 10:56:35am

re: #6 brookly red

It kinda makes sense in a bad way… why debate and step in harms way? The battle for hearts & minds will be fought by proxies on-line, no?

Online? Nah. Where else but on television through political ads.

9 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 10:57:30am

re: #1 iceweasel

Has right wing American politics reached such a fever pitch of insanity that this is now a winning strategy — to simply cut yourself off from all possible challenges to your views, and run away from reporters?

Yes. Because it’s worked for Palin.

This really started with W. Bush

The cherry picked audiences and Fox news to talk for you.

10 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 10:57:55am

re: #5 Charles

Anyone recognize the headline reference?

W. Bush of course.

11 brookly red  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 10:58:21am

re: #8 Gus 802

Online? Nah. Where else but on television through political ads.

no, really think about it… we are not watching TV now. How many others are out there “debating”?

12 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 10:59:31am

re: #10 LudwigVanQuixote

Nope.

13 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 10:59:37am

Brave Jane Brewer ran away,
Bravely ran away away,
When reporters rear their ugly head
She bravely turned her tail and fled
Yes, brave Jane Brewer turned about
and gallantly she chickened out.

14 brookly red  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:00:00am

re: #12 Charles

Nope.

Nixon?

15 Gus  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:00:12am

re: #11 brookly red

no, really think about it… we are not watching TV now. How many others are out there “debating”?

Television audiences still exceed internet audiences. Most people online have their minds made up while television viewers tend to be malleable.

16 webevintage  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:00:58am

re: #1 iceweasel

Has right wing American politics reached such a fever pitch of insanity that this is now a winning strategy — to simply cut yourself off from all possible challenges to your views, and run away from reporters?

Yes. Because it’s worked for Palin.

It works for Steve King in Iowa.
He never debates his Dem challengers.
The guy he is running against now even showed up at a town hall and King’s response was the guy had not “earned” the right to debate King.
[Link: thinkprogress.org…]

17 Mark Pennington  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:02:01am

I’m just now catching up and watching the Brewer debate video. Seemed like she suffered a couple of major-league brain farts, or was blinded by the lights. Or the green room was too well stocked. Damn.

18 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:02:06am

re: #11 brookly red

no, really think about it… we are not watching TV now. How many others are out there “debating”?

Portman and Fischer are having 3 debates in Ohio


.


re: #12 Charles

Obama.

19 Leonidas Hoplite  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:02:24am

Unfortunately, the Republicans don’t need a strategy - they just need to not be Democrats.

20 Gus  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:02:27am

re: #15 Gus 802

Television audiences still exceed internet audiences. Most people online have their minds made up while television viewers tend to be malleable.

And TV is the ideal medium since it can create the virtual candidate. Not live of course as indicated by Brewer, Angle, etc.

21 Gus  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:02:37am

re: #12 Charles

Nope.

Sharron Angle?

22 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:02:41am

The wingnuts are a movement that rejects reason itself. A real debate is not something that they can withstand, because facts and evidence or logic are not part of the message. Too much of the truth ends up having a liberal bias to their deluded or distorted view.

The real problem is that Fox News is so big, that they need not enter into debate. Those who already buy the propaganda do not need to be sold any more. There is enough unchallenged lies spewing 24/7 from Fox, that thwe work is already done in the echo chamber.

This is exactly the mechanism of how it got so crazy so quickly. There were never any adults around to quell the excesses of the propagandists or any opposing facts allowed to challenge the narrative.

Now, anything that does challenge the narrative even in a small way challenges an entire mental edifice of idiocy that was deeply invested in by the followers.

23 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:03:13am

re: #17 beekiller

I’m just now catching up and watching the Brewer debate video. Seemed like she suffered a couple of major-league brain farts, or was blinded by the lights. Or the green room was too well stocked. Damn.

Blinded by the light you say?

24 jaunte  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:03:22am
Incumbent Republican Jan Brewer said Thursday she has no intention of participating in any more events with Democrat Terry Goddard. She said the only reason she debated him on Wednesday is she had to to qualify for more than $1.7 million in public funds for her campaign.


This is not a good bargain for the public.

25 Lidane  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:03:31am

But remember, kids — it’s the liberals that lack a spine or the willingness to defend their beliefs. Conservatives are all about bootstrapping your way through life and having unassailable convictions that are to be defended at all costs.

/

26 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:03:38am

re: #12 Charles

Nope.

OK I am wrong. I have certainly seen many refer to W. as not that strong debater.

What is the reference?

27 Jimmah  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:04:24am
It’s becoming a real trend. Has right wing American politics reached such a fever pitch of insanity that this is now a winning strategy — to simply cut yourself off from all possible challenges to your views, and run away from reporters?

She’s GAZING us all. (Her fans say she has the strongest GAZE muscle in US politics.) Now she’s ‘gotta’ git”.

28 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:04:25am

If real debates with real rules such as apply in any American high school were held in any political race anymore, we would simply decided to go for hereditary aristocracy in this country.

29 ShaunP  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:04:33am

re: #5 Charles

Anyone recognize the headline reference?

Should have been “not a master-debater”…

30 fahlmanc  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:05:04am

It’s pretty cynical to admit that you’re debating not to hash out the differences you have with your election opponents (a time-honoured democratic excercise), but that you’re doing it only FOR THE MONEY.

31 Why I Never!  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:05:07am

re: #16 webevintage

It works for Steve King in Iowa.
He never debates his Dem challengers.
The guy he is running against now even showed up at a town hall and King’s response was the guy had not “earned” the right to debate King.
[Link: thinkprogress.org…]

Thank you! I knew I saw an article a while ago about how this is a growing trend—loads of tea party candidates as I recall.

Also, while it’s true that this started under Bush at least, (esp after election, with carefully screening all attendees at appearances, town halls, etc) Palin has really made it possible for lunatic tea parties to imagine they too can affect national presence merely by moronic pronouncements on twitter and facebook alone.
(plus the massive shielding of Palin from the media during the 2008 election after the various debacles)

32 webevintage  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:05:56am

re: #12 Charles

Nope.

McCain…

33 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:05:57am

Nobody got it yet.

34 Gus  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:07:17am

re: #33 Charles

Nobody got it yet.

Sarah Palin!

35 Why I Never!  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:07:43am

SNL?

36 RadicalModerate  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:07:50am

re: #7 webevintage

Grizzly Mama!!!
Not a quitter, but a reloader!!!11!!!
/

(actually Brewer needs to do her job and get the state police to arrest that idiot Arpaio who refuses to cooperate with the justice department. it is a dangerous thing when a county Sheriff decides he can tell the Feds to fuck off and the Governor seems to support him.)

Where have we seen this before?

Oh yeah.

Image: 0478-0611-2218-5916_governor_george_wallace_attempting_to_block_integration_at_the_university_of_alabama_m.jpg

37 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:07:54am

Hillary?

38 Gus  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:08:02am

Mrs. Brewer, what are your favorite books?

Books?

39 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:08:27am

re: #38 Gus 802

All of them

40 Why I Never!  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:08:46am

re: #38 Gus 802

Mrs. Brewer, what are your favorite books?

Books?

All of ‘em! You betcha!

41 Lidane  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:08:46am

re: #33 Charles

I keep ignoring the word debater and going back to song lyrics for some reason. Dunno why.

42 Gus  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:08:47am

re: #39 Dreggas

All of them

Cosmo

/

43 brookly red  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:08:59am

re: #33 Charles

I Googled it…

425 million possibilities…

44 wee fury  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:09:41am

Ronald Reagan.

45 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:10:07am

re: #42 Gus 802

If that’s the case she needs a refund, cosmo ain’t helpin..

//Can’t resist the looks joke…

46 Why I Never!  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:10:07am

“I’m not that strong a swimmer”.

47 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:10:11am

I’m going to go with sychronized swimming as my answer.

48 cliffster  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:10:16am

Google moves fast

[Link: www.google.com…]

49 Jimmah  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:10:36am

re: #38 Gus 802

Mrs. Brewer, what are your favorite books?

Books?

“I’ve read lots of books”

Tell us a few of your favourite ones Mrs Brewer.

Mrs Brewer? Hello are you still working? Mrs Brewer!

50 Lidane  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:10:39am

re: #38 Gus 802

She’s big on horror and murder mystery novels where beheadings take place in the desert, yet no one can find the proof of them.

51 RadicalModerate  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:10:41am

re: #5 Charles

I’m wanting to say its from a Monty Python routine, but for the life of me I can’t exactly place it.

52 Gus  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:11:25am

re: #50 Lidane

She’s big on horror and murder mystery novels where beheadings take place in the desert, yet no one can find the proof of them.

There goes my Dr. Seuss theory. /

53 brookly red  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:11:26am

re: #51 RadicalModerate

I’m wanting to say its from a Monty Python routine, but for the life of me I can’t exactly place it.

that would be arguments, not debates…

54 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:12:33am

re: #46 iceweasel

“I’m not that strong a swimmer”.


[Video]

You win! A classic Martin Short line. Here’s a better video:

55 Political Atheist  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:12:52am

re: #43 brookly red

I Googled it…

425 million possibilities…

Yeah and this thread was big #1 on the list. Awesome google fu Charles.

56 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:13:09am

re: #53 brookly red

that would be arguments, not debates…

We can always just go with abuse.

57 mr.fusion  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:14:13am

“she had to to qualify for more than $1.7 million in public funds for her campaign.”

Didn’t realize Brewer was a Socialist/Marxist/Terrorist

58 Gus  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:14:21am

re: #54 Charles

You win! A classic Martin Short line. Here’s a better video:

[Video]

Martin Short looks baked in that video. ;)

59 RadicalModerate  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:14:53am

re: #53 brookly red

that would be arguments, not debates…

No it isn’t - but before we go any further, would like five minutes or the full half hour?

60 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:14:54am

re: #57 mr.fusion

“she had to to qualify for more than $1.7 million in public funds for her campaign.”

Didn’t realize Brewer was a Socialist/Marxist/Terrorist

Typical conservative, looking for government handouts.

61 Why I Never!  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:15:19am

re: #54 Charles

You win! A classic Martin Short line. Here’s a better video:


[Video]

Woohoo!

62 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:15:22am

re: #9 LudwigVanQuixote

It probably goes back to the 1960’s and the realization that Richard Nixon might well have lost the 1960 presidential election, in part, because he was perceived to have done so poorly relative to JFK in their televised debate (at least among those who watched it on t.v.; as best I recall, polls of those who listened on radio showed that they thought Nixon won the debate). Since then, the “potential gain vs. risk” of open debates, in an era where the 5-second quip is more important than a well-thought-out policy, has been one of the key elements considered by any candidate.

63 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:15:25am

re: #59 RadicalModerate

No it isn’t - but before we go any further, would like five minutes or the full half hour?

I told you once already

64 Gus  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:15:41am

re: #60 Obdicut

Typical conservative, looking for government handouts.

“It doesn’t matter what I do!”

65 HoosierHoops  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:15:47am

re: #55 Rightwingconspirator

Yeah and this thread was big #1 on the list. Awesome google fu Charles.

Yeas..What good is Google when the #1 hit is this thread?
I want my Google bucks back…
It’s just not that strong of a search engine….

66 brookly red  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:17:08am

re: #65 HoosierHoops

Yeas..What good is Google when the #1 hit is this thread?
I want my Google bucks back…
It’s just not that strong of a search engine…

Steelers or Cowboys?

67 rwdflynavy  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:17:44am

re: #46 iceweasel

“I’m not that strong a swimmer”.


[Video]

Ice for the win! I saw Charles’ question and was scrolling down to see if anyone would get it before I got to the end.

I love that old SNL bit!

68 HoosierHoops  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:18:13am

re: #66 brookly red

Steelers or Cowboys?

I went to the Colts game last night…Probably my last one.

69 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:19:05am

re: #19 Leonidas Hoplite

Unfortunately, the Republicans don’t need a strategy - they just need to not be Democrats.


Shades of 2008, with the shoe on the other foot. The risk to the Republicans’ goal of — and, IMNHO, the nation’s need for — eliminating one-party rule is that the Pubs’ insistence on nominating extremists may make various races about something more than whether the Republican candidate is not a Dem.

70 Why I Never!  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:19:11am

re: #67 rwdflynavy

Ice for the win! I saw Charles’ question and was scrolling down to see if anyone would get it before I got to the end.

I love that old SNL bit!

You deserve the prize or Krager then— I found it with my google-fu.

(I remembered the skit after I found it, but not before google-fu retrieved it.)

71 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:19:39am

She provided some awesome clips for her opponent to use in political ads. A dem governor in AZ is a longshot but she opened the door to the possibility.

72 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:20:12am

OT: Do we have any updates on Steve?

73 brookly red  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:20:30am

need food back later.

74 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:20:43am

I really really want another demon sheep ad.

It just doesn’t get any better than the demon sheep.

75 elbruce  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:22:20am

Arizona gubertornial candidates get paid for debating?

Next up, look for her to claim that Goddard is a “master debater.”

76 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:24:41am

Snort.

77 HoosierHoops  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:24:50am

re: #72 Killgore Trout

OT: Do we have any updates on Steve?

No..Walter has talked to him…Hopefully he will have some updates soon

78 Jimmah  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:25:24am

re: #74 EmmmieG

I really really want another demon sheep ad.

It just doesn’t get any better than the demon sheep.

I believe Jesse Rae was the first to feature the combination of sheep and strangeness in a big way in a political ad:

79 Targetpractice  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:26:11am

It seems the GOP’s new motto is to be “I don’t have to answer to you!” At this point, they’re all but declaring that voters are simply too stupid to do more than show up at the polls and send in donations.

80 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:27:13am

re: #79 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

It seems the GOP’s new motto is to be “I don’t have to answer to you!” At this point, they’re all but declaring that voters are simply too stupid to do more than show up at the polls and send in donations.

I have the opinion that both parties have been largely following that line in reality for decades. It’s just getting more overt recently.

81 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:27:53am

I’d like to have a argument.

Y
82 ShaunP  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:28:16am

re: #80 oaktree

I have the opinion that both parties have been largely following that line in reality for decades. It’s just getting more overt recently.

In 2012, we can just get shirts made up with D’s and R’s and avoid all of the issues completely…

83 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:28:41am

re: #81 Ojoe

I’d like to have a argument.


[Video] Y

In the new version of the skit they put Geller in the room for Abuse.

84 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:28:43am

re: #80 oaktree

A function, no doubt, of the fact that voter turnout in this country is typically so pathetically low that an election is only about energizing the pre-disposed base to show up and vote.

85 rwdflynavy  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:29:40am

re: #70 iceweasel

You deserve the prize or Krager then— I found it with my google-fu.

(I remembered the skit after I found it, but not before google-fu retrieved it.)

Glad to see you back and posting regularly!

86 webevintage  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:31:33am

re: #80 oaktree

I have the opinion that both parties have been largely following that line in reality for decades. It’s just getting more overt recently.

I’m as cynical as the next guy, but I just have not seen Dems unwilling to debate and actually running away from the press.

(and I could be wrong)

87 Why I Never!  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:31:47am

re: #85 rwdflynavy

Glad to see you back and posting regularly!

Cheers! How are you? Any nice weekend plans? Hope you have a great one!

(im not fully back yet but it’s better, thanks)

88 rwdflynavy  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:32:55am

re: #87 iceweasel

Cheers! How are you? Any nice weekend plans? Hope you have a great one!

(im not fully back yet but it’s better, thanks)

I’m fine. We are in DC now. I need to start brewing beer again… Just a quiet weekend getting kids ready for school on Tues (they start late in Fairfax County).

89 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:32:58am

re: #84 sliv_the_eli

A function, no doubt, of the fact that voter turnout in this country is typically so pathetically low that an election is only about energizing the pre-disposed base to show up and vote.

Bringing around the topic of why voter turn-out is so pathetically low, and whether the ruling parties really have any true interest in improving it. For the latter I believe they are not so inclined.

As for the former I think it’s an apathy based on one or more of the following:
- perceived lack of choice; e.g. being offered a meaningless decision
- perceived decision that vote does not matter
- decision that voting is a lesser priority (more troublesome for benefit than carrying out other activities)

90 elbruce  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:33:50am

re: #84 sliv_the_eli

A function, no doubt, of the fact that voter turnout in this country is typically so pathetically low that an election is only about energizing the pre-disposed base to show up and vote.


I think that’s how all elections are, and always have been. The margin of people who actually might change their minds on who they’re going to vote for is very slim. So the vast majority of what can swing it is which “side” has higher turnout. But it’s not just about “bases;” getting a disproportionate turnout from people who only slightly favor a given candidate, or who aren’t inclined to be political is the tricky part. And it seems like a lot of that has to do with creating the appearance of a big popular movement on your side to trigger their herd instinct.

91 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:34:25am

re: #89 oaktree

All your points are reasons why we need a sensible center party.

92 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:34:43am

re: #86 webevintage

I’m as cynical as the next guy, but I just have not seen Dems unwilling to debate and actually running away from the press.

(and I could be wrong)

Gov. Brewer’s comments are fairly over-the-top, but politicians who are leading in a race seeking to avoid debates is a fairly common occurrence without regard to party affiliation. It is about risk-avoidance. Like running out the clock in a basketball or football game that you are leading, the goal is to avoid giving the other person a chance to come back.

93 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:35:09am

re: #91 Ojoe

All your points are reasons why we need a sensible center party.

But the Sensible Party gets pwned by the Silly Party constantly!

94 Why I Never!  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:35:36am

re: #86 webevintage

I’m as cynical as the next guy, but I just have not seen Dems unwilling to debate and actually running away from the press.

(and I could be wrong)

I believe there is some FDL footage of a few fleeing from their camera guy— this is in re: HCR — but you’re right. It’s not institutional or complete the way it’s becoming for the right.

It’s also the culmination of twenty years of propaganda about the ‘librhul media’ from wingnut hate radio and more. The logical extension of that propaganda is to refuse to speak to the media. (unless its wingnut media).

This is also just part of the new populism, right? “speak directly to the people” being code for ‘avoiding unwelcome scrutiny’— which isn’t something that only happens in the US or just in this century.

95 HoosierHoops  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:36:52am

re: #88 rwdflynavy

I’m fine. We are in DC now. I need to start brewing beer again… Just a quiet weekend getting kids ready for school on Tues (they start late in Fairfax County).

I remember when you did the move…Hope you have a great weekend..
T minus 15 days before the moving truck arrives here….

96 iossarian  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:38:23am

re: #91 Ojoe

All your points are reasons why we need a sensible center party.

We already have a center party. We just don’t have a left-wing party.

I think the apathy has more to do with the fact that lax/non-existent campaign finance laws mean that it is easy to perceive politicians as being owned by corporate interests. Right-wingers manage to obscure that fact somewhat through populism, but it’s almost impossible to be a credible left-wing politician in the US, because you just get torpedoed by the billionaires.

97 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:38:23am

re: #89 oaktree

All good points, to which I would add apathy borne of perceiving no real threat to a generally free lifestyle. Most Americans (at least in a non-presidential-election year) simply take their right to vote for granted and, therefore, do not view voting as a citizen’s basic duty.

98 Jaerik  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:38:27am

The Republicans don’t stand for anything anymore. They talk about small government and then blow trillions. They rail against handouts and then accuse the Democrats of slashing Medicare and Social Security. They talk about family values and God and then get caught snorting meth off a gay hooker’s ass. They advocate for abstinence-only and then their kids get knocked up. Whether fiscal policy or social policy, it’s just a constant stream of blatant hypocrisy.

You might hate the Democrats, but at least when they say they want to raise taxes and/or provide more services, you can be pretty sure they mean it.

When you have no credibility and no internal consistency in your message, then yes. You can’t debate. You can’t argue your point coherently. All you can do is run, and throw out talking points addressing small slices of the overall national problem, and pray no one notices your talking point this week conflicts with your talking point from last week.

And then, if anyone does notice, just chalk it up to a vast left-wing conspiracy in “the media” and dismiss it outright.

99 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:40:21am

re: #90 elbruce

The problem with that analysis is that it ignores the extremely low turnout in most elections. Swaying the middle is important in presidential election years or in particularly contentious state-wide elections, but turnout in primaries and off-year elections are sometimes below 20% of eligible voters. There is typically no need to sway the middle at that level.

100 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:41:34am

re: #86 webevintage

I’m as cynical as the next guy, but I just have not seen Dems unwilling to debate and actually running away from the press.

(and I could be wrong)

I’m going beyond debates and media coverage to general behavior. Corruption is rife, and every new group that campaigns on “cleaning up Washington” bellies up to the trough rapidly once they get there. And that applies to both parties who have more than their share of members whose behavior is in essence contemptuous of their constituents and the nation at large.

The parties are slow and hesitant to police their own, and thus they be default start picking up the taint associated with the corruption they turn a blind eye to. They are human, but part of leadership is setting by example how to handle hardships and make difficult decisions. (Then again, that’s why “leader” and “politician” are not synonyms.)

101 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:42:33am

re: #91 Ojoe

Agreed, 100%. Unlikely we will ever get one, which is why moderates’ failure to turn out and vote in primaries is self-defeating.

102 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:43:30am

re: #82 ShaunP

In 2012, we can just get shirts made up with D’s and R’s and avoid all of the issues completely…

You have a problem with I’s? /

103 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:45:01am

re: #94 iceweasel

I believe there is some FDL footage of a few fleeing from their camera guy— this is in re: HCR — but you’re right. It’s not institutional or complete the way it’s becoming for the right.

It’s also the culmination of twenty years of propaganda about the ‘librhul media’ from wingnut hate radio and more. The logical extension of that propaganda is to refuse to speak to the media. (unless its wingnut media).

This is also just part of the new populism, right? “speak directly to the people” being code for ‘avoiding unwelcome scrutiny’— which isn’t something that only happens in the US or just in this century.

My impression, FWIW, is that it only appears to be becoming institutional on the right because in this particular election year they generally feel that they are in the lead from the beginning and, therefore, have the most to lose from giving the other candidate a chance to show them up.

104 zora  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:45:36am

re: #102 DaddyG

I. I. I. what are you a narcissist? /

pimf

105 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:45:49am

re: #101 sliv_the_eli

The reason for the generally low turnout in US elections IMHO is lack of a center party; but also laziness & stupidity; I often wonder which is the more important reason & these days I favor laziness & stupidity.

106 zora  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:46:06am

re: #104 zora

I. I. I. what are you a narcissist? /

pimf

107 Why I Never!  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:46:50am

re: #98 Jaerik

Brilliant. That! yes.

108 ShaunP  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:47:09am

re: #105 Ojoe

The reason for the generally low turnout in US elections IMHO is lack of a center party; but also laziness & stupidity; I often wonder which is the more important reason & these days I favor laziness & stupidity.

The reason for the generally low turn out is that there are a lot of americans that don’t really care about politics, unless there is a particular issue that excites/incites them enough to go to the polls…

109 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:47:28am

re: #104 zora

I. I. I. what are you a narcissist? /

pimf


Yes- I am the best narcissist I know!

110 Jimmah  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:47:32am

Dinner time here at Jimmah-Ice Acres - chicken parmesan is on the menu.

See you guys later!

111 Why I Never!  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:48:17am

re: #103 sliv_the_eli

My impression, FWIW, is that it only appears to be becoming institutional on the right because in this particular election year they generally feel that they are in the lead from the beginning and, therefore, have the most to lose from giving the other candidate a chance to show them up.

I think there’s a few factors motivating it on the right, but running shitty candidates who can’t stand up to any scrutiny is certainly one of them, yes.

Back later!

112 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:48:53am

re: #105 Ojoe

The reason for the generally low turnout in US elections IMHO is lack of a center party; but also laziness & stupidity; I often wonder which is the more important reason & these days I favor laziness & stupidity.

…and what center party would your recommend?

:-)

113 rwdflynavy  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:49:53am

re: #95 HoosierHoops

I remember when you did the move…Hope you have a great weekend..
T minus 15 days before the moving truck arrives here…

Right back at ya Hoops. Hope you have an easy move.

114 theheat  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:49:56am

re: #86 webevintage

Same here. Anymore, I don’t know if they’re running away because they just made some over the top racist remark, if they were caught with their pants around their ankles, or if they’re avoiding the inevitably embarrassing scientific or historic question.

I noticed it, most, during the 2008 election year, when Palin spent a good portion of her campaign with her foot in her mouth. Drive-by and gotcha media were constantly blamed for her inability to answer simple questions. After that, I think the wingnuts decided answering questions was too much a liability.

115 b_sharp  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:50:11am

Slow down people.

Sometimes I feel like I’m in the Red Queen’s race.

116 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:50:29am

re: #112 DaddyG

An old one!

LOL


BBL

117 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:50:41am

I found myself thinking - 11 million people in our state and these were the 8 people we came up with for the Governor’s race? - even early on in the process.

The whole process is unfortunately more appealing to those who would endure a root canal from the bottom end in exchange for power than to real statesmen.

118 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:50:54am

re: #96 iossarian

Yes, George Soros has been particularly stingy to candidates of the Left. The reality is that both parties are heavily influenced by corporate interests. Dems would like us to think they are not influenced by wealthy corporate donors and lobbyists, but that is no more true than the Pubs’ claim that they are no so influenced.

119 iossarian  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:55:14am

re: #118 sliv_the_eli

Yes, George Soros has been particularly stingy to candidates of the Left. The reality is that both parties are heavily influenced by corporate interests. Dems would like us to think they are not influenced by wealthy corporate donors and lobbyists, but that is no more true than the Pubs’ claim that they are no so influenced.

I didn’t mean that the Democrats don’t get funding, of course they do. What I meant was that, for a left-wing candidate, such funding is much more of a problem than a right-wing candidate, because the whole point of being left-wing is that you’re meant to be representing the little people, and defending them against the bosses. It thus becomes harder to follow through on your campaign promises when you have to accommodate the special interests.

This goes back to my point that the Democrats are only left-wing by comparison to the Republicans. There are very few elected politicians in the US who would be described as “left-wing” in any other country.

120 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:55:17am

Off-topic:
Anyone have any hurricane weather updates to pass along?

Still just cloudy here in Philly. No rain sighted yet. Stiff wind out of the south, but not extraordinary in strength.

121 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:55:20am

re: #98 Jaerik

You don’t seriously think Dem candidiates use anything more than talking points on the campaign trail, do you? The reality is that these are problems of both ends of the political spectrum and a general view by political professionals of both parties that the populace is, generally speaking, uninformed and easily manipulated through images and slogans. Hell, our current President was elected largely on a platitudinous slogan of “Hope and Change” — because he certainly did not have a long and distinguished record on which to run — over a candidiate who, whether or not one agrees with his views, has dedicated his life to serving this country.

122 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:57:31am

EDL members arrested for fashion offences

123 Lidane  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:00:57pm

re: #119 iossarian

This goes back to my point that the Democrats are only left-wing by comparison to the Republicans. There are very few elected politicians in the US who would be described as “left-wing” in any other country.

Pretty much. A Democrat here is closer to center or even center-right outside of the US, I think.

124 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:01:50pm

re: #119 iossarian

Understood and, in general, good points. However, the same pionts could be made about Republicans, who seek to portray themselves as protecting the little people against the tyranny of big government and big corporate interests.

One additional note, while you are correct that our “left” is generally only considered left by comparison to Republicans, most Republicans are, likewise, only considered right by comparison to Dems. Both “ends” of the American political spectrum — and in this I exclude the extremist fringes on both sides — largely accept the liberal values embodied in the U.S. Constitution as the framework of debate and, in that sense, we are all merely different shades of “left.”

125 Gus  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:02:02pm

re: #122 Killgore Trout

EDL members arrested for fashion offences

[Video]

Wankers.

126 Jaerik  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:04:31pm

I would love to vote for a candidate that honestly wants to lower my taxes and cut spending. But they don’t exist.

Look, in order to have voted for Reagan the first time around, you had to be born in 1961 or earlier. That makes you nearly 50. Think about that for a second. With population curves, how much of the electorate is under 50?

I was born in 1980. In my lifetime I saw Reagan talk about cutting spending, blow trillions on the military and other programs, and leave us deeply in debt under the argument that “deficits don’t matter.” I saw Bush Sr. promise not to raise taxes, do so, then get shot down in flames for it next election. Then I saw another Republican blow trillions more on needless wars, massive prescription drug benefits, etc. By comparison, the eight years under a Democrat were probably the most peaceful and prosperous era any of my generation can remember, and there’s a lot of us. None of us were even alive during Carter.

I don’t like the Democrats’ philosophy. I hate taxes and I hate spending. But people’s voting habits are shaped by their experiences, and my generation’s experiences with Republican talking points have been shockingly hypocritical and downright depressing. I just can’t pull the lever for any of them anymore.

127 BongCrodny  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:05:54pm

I know ad placement is random, but I still can’t help but smile when I think of Sharron Angle wasting her money by advertising here.

128 ShaunP  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:08:00pm

re: #126 Jaerik

1978 here and you are absolutely right…

129 Gus  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:08:40pm

Later.

130 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:08:56pm

re: #127 BongCrodny
You’re missing the big ( ad) picture. Not everyone who reads LGF is registered. There’s a lot of traffic.

131 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:09:00pm

re: #120 oaktree

Off-topic:
Anyone have any hurricane weather updates to pass along?

Still just cloudy here in Philly. No rain sighted yet. Stiff wind out of the south, but not extraordinary in strength.

Earl still blows.

132 Stanley Sea  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:09:16pm

Interesting story from the SPLC that does fit into the talk earlier about the southern states.

Although it’s a small town of about 7,800, Pulaski, Tenn., may well be the white supremacist epicenter of the nation — at least if the number of rallies held there by bigoted groups is any indication.

[Link: www.splcenter.org…]

All I can say is don’t take offense, do something about it!

133 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:09:44pm

re: #130 tradewind

You’re missing the big ( ad) picture. Not everyone who reads LGF is registered. There’s a lot of traffic.


Lots of Single Muslima lurkers I guess? /

134 Political Atheist  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:11:35pm

re: #126 Jaerik

“I saw Bush Sr. promise not to raise taxes, do so, then get shot down in flames for it next election.”

Did you also see the spending limits deal Bush 41 got the Dems to agree to in exchange for signing off on a tax increase the legislature wanted? Those limits set the stage for the deficit to go well down or go away with a good revenue increase. Which of course actually happened.

135 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:13:18pm

re: #132 Stanley Sea

Interesting story from the SPLC that does fit into the talk earlier about the southern states.

Although it’s a small town of about 7,800, Pulaski, Tenn., may well be the white supremacist epicenter of the nation.

[Link: www.splcenter.org…]

All I can say is don’t take offense, do something about it!


“There’s never been a local person involved in these marches or rallies,” Mayor Daniel Speer told Hatewatch this week. But they’re resigned to being a favorite locale for the haters of the American radical right. Speer’s town is more than one-quarter black, but it has for decades been a favorite place for white supremacist groups to rally because of one unfortunate historical fact: This was where the Ku Klux Klan was born.”

Therin lies the rub. It isn’t locals its those with a Historical Klan Jones. I wonder what the locals can do about it if the protests and rallys are protected by law?

I wouldn’t be pleased that’s for sure.

136 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:14:06pm

re: #133 DaddyG
I wouldn’t be surprised.
Interest groups often have people on their payrolls to monitor blogs, just as do large corporations, as part of their PR departments. After all, how are you going to counter what you may consider negative PR if you don’t know it exists?
I’m speaking re every point on the political spectrum, not specifically addressing the ad you mentioned.

137 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:17:02pm

My apologies for posting this here, it belongs on a prior thread but work took me away.
Being born and raised in the South (FL) let me state that from my perspective we southerners do get sensitive about our historical racist past. In particular when someone suggests that somehow currently southerners are more inclined to be racist today, which in my personal experience is not the case.
I recently read “The Imperial Cruise” by James Bradley, excellent book if you haven’t read it. What I didn’t realize is how racism was so institutionalized in the beginning of the 20th century with the likes of Roosevelt, Taft and much of our higher education. In a way, as a southerner, I felt a bit vindicated to understand that in the era of extreme southern racism, the northern elites were bigots of a different type in that they were promoting white superiority on a global scale.

138 Why I Never!  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:17:39pm

re: #135 DaddyG

Therin lies the rub. It isn’t locals its those with a Historical Klan Jones. I wonder what the locals can do about it if the protests and rallys are protected by law?

I wouldn’t be pleased that’s for sure.

Counter-march and counter protest like they’ve done for other Klan rallies, as in Skokie IL.

139 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:17:46pm

re: #30 fahlmanc

It’s pretty cynical to admit that you’re debating not to hash out the differences you have with your election opponents (a time-honoured democratic excercise), but that you’re doing it only FOR THE MONEY.

Maybe she could get some props for being honest. /

140 Jaerik  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:18:00pm

re: #121 sliv_the_eli

You don’t seriously think Dem candidiates use anything more than talking points on the campaign trail, do you?

When Obama ran for office, he said he wanted to reform health care in a patently Democratic way. He said he wanted to repeal Don’t Ask Don’t Tell. He said he wanted to wind down in Iraq. He said he wanted financial reform. All of it in very Democrat-esque ways: more regulation, more control, more spending, ponderously slow bureaucracy, etc.

That’s exactly what we got. The result might be watered down or crappy, or not as fast as his base wanted. You might hate it, but were you genuinely surprised by any of it?

By comparison, I have Republicans telling me that we desperately need to cut spending, who are the same assholes who voted for trillions in Medicare Part D spending just a few years ago. I have people trying to lecture me on societal norms and values who are three-time adulterers and/or got caught diddling their underage Congressional staffers. I have Sarah Palin telling me we need to fast-track oil drilling paperwork and reduce safety regulation, then when a platform blows up a week later, saying the problem is not enough federal oversight. I have the Tea Party saying we have to defend the Constitution at all costs, except for that whole freedom of religion part.

As much as I disagree with their philosophy, at least the Democrats seem to working from something approaching internal consistency.

141 Mark Pennington  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:18:25pm

TGIF! Have a fantastic day, Lizards!

142 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:18:34pm

re: #136 tradewind

I wouldn’t be surprised.
Interest groups often have people on their payrolls to monitor blogs, just as do large corporations, as part of their PR departments. After all, how are you going to counter what you may consider negative PR if you don’t know it exists?
I’m speaking re every point on the political spectrum, not specifically addressing the ad you mentioned.

I was sort of kidding. I suspect those ads come up because of the number of times Muslim is used as a word in our discussions. Of course I’m not privy to the innerworks of Google adsearch so it could be something more complex than that.

Speaking of monitoring blogs we’re just now trying to get agencies to pay attention to social networking and media. We move slow around here.

143 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:19:31pm

re: #138 iceweasel

Counter-march and counter protest like they’ve done for other Klan rallies, as in Skokie IL.


Yeah! I like this approach better…

144 FriendsofHummus  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:21:40pm

Brewer es muy loco.

145 Stanley Sea  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:22:53pm

re: #135 DaddyG

Therin lies the rub. It isn’t locals its those with a Historical Klan Jones. I wonder what the locals can do about it if the protests and rallys are protected by law?

I wouldn’t be pleased that’s for sure.

I get that point. Totally. But I would certainly be protesting.

146 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:24:01pm

re: #137 filetandrelease

In particular when someone suggests that somehow currently southerners are more inclined to be racist today, which in my personal experience is not the case.

You said that more consely than I did. Perhaps that is why I was having trouble making my point. (Even as a Northerner transplanted to the South).

My experience with racism is that there are different flavors for different regions. None of them are good.

It is several black aquantences and friends who pointed out that they had an easier time in the South where they (in the words of one) “could see the rednecks coming from further off” than in the North.

147 Political Atheist  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:24:04pm

Well said, I have that book and you are utterly correct. A must read for historic perspective on racism and “the white mans burden”. BTW that is an FDR quote, I do cringe when I type it.

re: #137 filetandrelease

My apologies for posting this here, it belongs on a prior thread but work took me away.
Being born and raised in the South (FL) let me state that from my perspective we southerners do get sensitive about our historical racist past. In particular when someone suggests that somehow currently southerners are more inclined to be racist today, which in my personal experience is not the case.
I recently read “The Imperial Cruise” by James Bradley, excellent book if you haven’t read it. What I didn’t realize is how racism was so institutionalized in the beginning of the 20th century with the likes of Roosevelt, Taft and much of our higher education. In a way, as a southerner, I felt a bit vindicated to understand that in the era of extreme southern racism, the northern elites were bigots of a different type in that they were promoting white superiority on a global scale.

148 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:26:26pm

re: #145 Stanley Sea

I get that point. Totally. But I would certainly be protesting.


That’s a tough call for me. I’ve never been a protester and I sometimes feel like that gives groups more legitimacy.

I saw something on Andrew Young presents the other day about how the blacks in the Lincoln district of St Augustine greeted Klan marchers with the gospel song, “I love everybody, I love everybody, I love everybody in my heart…” The Klansmen were shamed and the community held the moral high ground.

149 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:26:36pm

re: #142 DaddyG
Good points.

150 Stanley Sea  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:27:33pm

And with perfect timing, at this moment I opened my mail to find an invite to see Morris Dees & Richard Cohen of the SPLC speaking on 9/22 in San Diego.

I’ll be there!!!

151 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:28:16pm

re: #146 DaddyG

It gets my shackles up. I always remember along time ago I asked my grand mother who was from Salem MA, that since she saw them both play baseball, who was the better hitter, Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron, her reply, “Well Hank Aaron was black”. Racism has no bounds. And our country is one of the least racist in the world.

152 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:29:05pm

re: #123 Lidane

Pretty much. A Democrat here is closer to center or even center-right outside of the US, I think.

Speaking as a Canadian, that’s how it appears to me.

153 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:29:12pm

re: #151 filetandrelease

It gets my shackles up. I always remember along time ago I asked my grand mother who was from Salem MA, that since she saw them both play baseball, who was the better hitter, Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron, her reply, “Well Hank Aaron was black”. Racism has no bounds. And our country is one of the least racist in the world.

Hank Aaron played for Atlanta. He is better. //

154 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:29:41pm

re: #153 DaddyG
lol

155 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:29:54pm

re: #151 filetandrelease

What magical force makes sure that racism is absolutely equal in all areas of the US?

156 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:31:16pm

re: #155 Obdicut

What magical force makes sure that racism is absolutely equal in all areas of the US?

Who said that?

I’m not trying to offend but I think based on our last discussion you may be under the impression I beleive something that I do not believe?

157 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:31:45pm

…and of course I cannot consistently spell believe… PIMF

158 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:32:18pm

re: #155 Obdicut
Hmmm, did I imply that? Not my intention. But to try and answer, Unicorns?

159 brookly red  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:32:40pm

re: #157 DaddyG

…and of course I cannot consistently spell believe… PIMF


/dark forces at work?

160 b_sharp  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:35:11pm

re: #155 Obdicut

What magical force makes sure that racism is absolutely equal in all areas of the US?

Mass media induced mass hallucination. It makes the melting pot look smooth and uniform.

161 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:35:21pm

re: #151 filetandrelease

What do you mean by ‘racism has no bounds’?

162 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:35:29pm

re: #158 filetandrelease

Hmmm, did I imply that? Not my intention. But to try and answer, Unicorns?


I think there is some carry over from other discussions and our experience with others.

I’m going over the earlier discussion in my mind and I think I read too much into LVQs statements and Obdi read too much into my statements.

For the record I think racism is too prevelant accross the US. In my experience I’ve spoken to far too many people from outside the South that felt it was primarily or even exclusively a Southern problem. This is what I’m reacting to as much as any statement here. If it starts to sound like someone is going there I bristle and worry they are trying to deny their own issues by pointing at others they perceive as worse examples.

163 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:36:11pm

re: #161 Obdicut
It is a world wide problem. Specifically not only a southern US problem.

164 Stanley Sea  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:36:51pm

re: #162 DaddyG

I kind of regret now bringing it back up. :)

165 webevintage  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:38:00pm

re: #140 Jaerik

When Obama ran for office, he said he wanted to reform health care in a patently Democratic way. He said he wanted to repeal Don’t Ask Don’t Tell. He said he wanted to wind down in Iraq. He said he wanted financial reform. All of it in very Democrat-esque ways: more regulation, more control, more spending, ponderously slow bureaucracy, etc.

That’s exactly what we got. The result might be watered down or crappy, or not as fast as his base wanted. You might hate it, but were you genuinely surprised by any of it?

The only folks surprised were people not paying attention who thought Obama was someone he is not. (and I”m talking about those on the left who thought they had gotten a lefty President and are bitter kittens now that their pony has not gotten to them yet.)

The Obama Meter on Politifact helps cut though the lies out there about what the President has done, is doing or is being blocked from doing and the promises that have actually been broken.
[Link: www.politifact.com…]

166 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:38:17pm

re: #162 DaddyG

Nobody stated it was primarily or exclusively a Southern problem in the past thread. I made very, very certain to early on talk about the problem in California, for example.

167 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:38:28pm

re: #163 filetandrelease

It is a world wide problem. Specifically not only a southern US problem.

Who has said that it was, please?

168 prairiefire  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:38:29pm

Oh gawd, Erick Erickson just posted a diary “I have a man-crus on Joe Miller.” Sap.

169 prairiefire  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:39:15pm

re: #168 prairiefire

pimf crush

170 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:39:34pm

Jan Brewer’s skills in a debate may be less than formidable , but it’s hard to blame any person in political life today for a desire to avoid the press.
Politico’s Ben Smith is hardly a right-winger or a Palin supporter, but even he deplores this hit piece by Vanity Fair.
When a so-called ’ respected ’ publication can’t even bother to fact-check, why shouldn’t any politician be wary?
[Link: www.politico.com…]

171 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:39:59pm

re: #167 Obdicut
Nobody to my knowledge. Nor did I say someone did.

172 BishopX  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:40:15pm

re: #147 Rightwingconspirator

FYI, “White Man’s Burden” is a phrase from Kipling, circa 1899.

173 brookly red  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:40:33pm

re: #169 prairiefire

pimf crush

pimf crush? there is something profound about that…

174 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:41:14pm

re: #167 Obdicut

Who has said that it was, please?

The focus of the comments and discussion were on the South. The context of those comments being about the South could make southerners defensive just as discussions about the Berkley tree sitters could lead to students of California’s higher learning institutions want to remind us of the Nobel Lauriates teaching there.

Call it a personality flaw.

175 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:41:15pm

re: #9 LudwigVanQuixote

This really started with W. Bush

The cherry picked audiences and Fox news to talk for you.

GW Bush required attendees to his rallies to sign loyalty oaths in order to be granted admittance. If that isn’t controlling the audience to an extreme degree, nothing is.

176 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:43:06pm

I want to unoquivically state that I have not stated what you think I did not state about the thing that I made no statement about.

/that ought to fix it.

177 prairiefire  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:43:36pm

re: #175 Fozzie Bear

GW Bush required attendees to his rallies to sign loyalty oaths in order to be granted admittance. If that isn’t controlling the audience to an extreme degree, nothing is.

How about having them falsely arrested. Remember those folks in CO with the anti- war bumper sticker on their car? It is a fascist tact it.

178 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:43:52pm

re: #176 DaddyG

I want to unoquivically state that I have not stated what you think I did not state about the thing that I made no statement about.

/that ought to fix it.

No you didn’t.
/

179 b_sharp  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:45:39pm

re: #163 filetandrelease

It is a world wide problem. Specifically not only a southern US problem.

It is a human problem. We are naturally tribalistic. However, we have evolved brains capable of rational thought and can break those tendencies.

180 Winny Spencer  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:45:52pm

re: #168 prairiefire

I’m happy for him.

181 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:46:32pm

It’s becoming a real trend. Has right wing American politics reached such a fever pitch of insanity that this is now a winning strategy — to simply cut yourself off from all possible challenges to your views, and run away from reporters?

Uh, yeah. This is the logical conclusion of grievance based culture warfare identity politics, crossed with an enclosed alternate media universe that is not interested in actually reporting news, but instead promotes more culture warfare. Whether or not a politician in this climate is actually competent is utterly irrelevant. He or she must hate the right sort of people, have the right endorsements from the AEI and the Club For Growth, and give validation to every whacked out, irrational complaint from disaffected low information white voters.

Remember…

People in this game don’t vote for the person they think is best…and indeed, that never even crosses their minds. They vote for who they want to have a beer and a burger with. People like themselves. That is why there is nothing in the universe that Obama could possibly do to convince this crowd that he is not a seekrit mooslim terrorist who fucks Saul Alinsky in the Acorn offices every night. They know that they are Real Americans and they hate and distrust the “librul lamestream media”…and Obama does not not look or talk or act like they do. Jan Brewer, Sarah Palin and Sharon Angle do. Their utter incompetency and vapidness becomes their greatest strength, like when Palin shows the notes on her hand to cheering crowds and says “It’s a cheap teleprompter!”…managing to mock Obama for his supposed use of a teleprompter at some point in the past. She is showing off how “ordinary” she can be…and they love it.

Other pols have played down their education and played up their folksy roots to make such a connection with voters, but the current GOP crop is aggressively making no education or experience at all into an asset. It is the very sort of vulgar demagoguery that our founders feared when they created the electoral college. I wonder how far this will go.

182 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:47:14pm

re: #175 Fozzie Bear
You mean kind of like the Obama campaign worker being the ’ random questioner ’ in his rally?
Please. They all do it.

183 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:47:23pm

re: #179 b_sharp
It is going to be a while. Many parts of the world are far behind the US regarding this problem.

184 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:47:50pm

re: #174 DaddyG

The comparison is completely inapt. Dark Falcon said that he refused to read someone because that person was from Berkeley and therefore a moonbat. If someone had dismissed someone out of hand because they were a Southerner, your case would be similar.

But that did not happen. Comparing the two incidents is comparing two completely different things. Nothing was said in general about Southerners.

What did happen was that it was asserted that the South has a historic and current problem with racism.

And it does.

The North, as I said, has its own brand of racism— the glass-ceiling type, though, actually, if you look at the percentage of black owned businesses, the North is rapidly catching up to the South and even exceeding them in many cases in that metric where the South used to prevail. I brought up California’s struggle with racism. I have mentioned ghettoization in the North as a terrible form of racism. Yet still you insist that the South is being targeted exceptionally.

There is a tradition of racism in the South, different than the racism in the North, that is not yet gone. It has its roots in dark violence, in ‘strange fruit’, in lynchings and extrajudicial murder. Those roots have evil blossoms in the hate groups that exist there now. This says nothing about the average Southerner, it says nothing about the general culture of the South, it says nothing about anything other than a tradition of racism still existing in the South, that still bears standing up to, still bears resistance, and which should not be minimized for any reason.

185 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:48:34pm

re: #183 filetandrelease
Darfur comes to mind./
But doesn’t seem to stick, at least not in the minds of our politicians.

186 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:49:03pm

re: #184 Obdicut

…Um I wasn’t comparing incidents. I made the Berkly thing up from thin air. I never read Dark Falcons Berkly comments.

Sigh.

Cultural and communication context is not an easy thing to navigate.

187 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:50:24pm

re: #184 Obdicut
When you say “tradition of racism” are you referring to “father to son?”

188 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:51:03pm

re: #186 DaddyG

My apologies, then. It was just a few days ago. And Berkeley does have a lot of uberliberals, and a lot too much tolerance for crazy positions. It passes a lot of stupid resolutions. It really does have a problem. It exists. It doesn’t, of course, say anything about the average Berkeley resident.

189 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:51:26pm

re: #187 filetandrelease

When you say “tradition of racism” are you referring to “father to son?”

Not specifically, no.

190 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:52:07pm

re: #187 filetandrelease

When you say “tradition of racism” are you referring to “father to son?”

That’s probably the main way it transmits. But there are other methods obviously.

And obviously a lot of cultural baggage other than racism perpetuates in that way.

191 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:52:52pm

re: #181 celticdragon
Conversely, there’s pretty much nothing that people who disagree with Obama’s politics could do to convince the majority of media outlets and pundits that they aren’t racist, rifle-toting rednecks itching for an excuse to impound foreigners and overthrow the government.

192 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:53:01pm

re: #185 tradewind The worst kind, Hitler like. A shame on world leaders in our life time.

193 zora  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:53:16pm

re: #188 Obdicut

i think that was daddy g’s point exactly.

194 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:54:16pm

re: #189 Obdicut
Your post was right on, but I am not sure about the above referenced quote, and was searching for a clearer meaning of what you specifically meant by it.

195 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:54:36pm

I get it Obdicut. You think the South is more prone to racism today because its history was more ugly and the racism more violent.

I disagree with that. I think it may even have a brighter future because it has had to openly deal with an ugly past and does not want to go back there (blacks or whites). We have a larger integrated population here. In Chicago there are still neighborhoods where Italians and Irish don’t mix.

Altanta is the Black entrepreneur mecca. We have more Black owned businesses headquartered here than in any other city.

I live here as an outsider (Midwesterner) and I can tell you that the radicals and racists are marginalized more and more each year, month, week and day. If someone wants to face a glass ceiling in the South just have them shoot off some rednecked comment and it will kill their progress quickly. That’s a good thing. Those attitudes should not be tolerated.

There is no defense for racism anywhere - not even pointing fingers at those who you feel are worse than you are about it.

196 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:54:55pm

Also…O/T

I now have a real, bona fide LGF stalker.

Some nut named Sharon actually left a nasty gram at my old Town Hall blog where she called me out as a RINO because of my posts here at LGF.

[Link: celticharp.blogtownhall.com…]

Why she felt the need to comment on a nearly 2 year old post giving info for a Warhammer 40K game I was hosting is simply beyond me.

197 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:55:02pm

re: #193 zora

It is my point exactly too. Talking about the history of racism in the South doesn’t smear all Southerners. It smears those carrying on that racist tradition.

198 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:55:55pm

re: #195 DaddyG

I get it Obdicut. You think the South is more prone to racism today because its history was more ugly and the racism more violent.

No, I don’t, and I have never said anything equivalent to that.

How many times do I have to talk about the ghettos of Chicago, of LA, to talk about the racism in California, to make you understand that?

199 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:56:02pm

re: #188 Obdicut

It really does have a problem. It exists. It doesn’t, of course, say anything about the average… resident.

BINGO! That was the point I was trying to make. (Albeit obviously not so clearly…)

Well said.

200 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:56:12pm

re: #195 DaddyG
LOL. We don’t even consider ’ Irish ’ and ‘Italian ’ as descriptive adjectives down here. How the heck does that still survive?

201 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:56:44pm

re: #199 DaddyG

BINGO! That was the point I was trying to make. (Albeit obviously not so clearly…)

Well said.

I made that point a long damn time ago. Over and over.

202 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:57:40pm

re: #196 celticdragon
Probably not even a she. Ignore it.

203 Political Atheist  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:57:47pm

re: #172 BishopX

Oh, yes but described as acted upon and repeated by FDR. At least if the book is correct.

204 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:58:20pm

re: #191 tradewind

Conversely, there’s pretty much nothing that people who disagree with Obama’s politics could do to convince the majority of media outlets and pundits that they aren’t racist, rifle-toting rednecks itching for an excuse to impound foreigners and overthrow the government.

That’s just bullshit. Even the lefty media (HuffPo) has plenty of criticism for Obama.

When a formerly reasonable political party decides to employ racism, thinly veiled threats of violent revolution, and suspicion of foreigners and international institutions, it is fair to point it out. There is no dearth of voices in the MSM openly critical of this administration’s policies.

205 lostlakehiker  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:59:11pm

re: #50 Lidane

She’s big on horror and murder mystery novels where beheadings take place in the desert, yet no one can find the proof of them.

re: #140 Jaerik

When Obama ran for office, he said he wanted to reform health care in a patently Democratic way. He said he wanted to repeal Don’t Ask Don’t Tell. He said he wanted to wind down in Iraq. He said he wanted financial reform. All of it in very Democrat-esque ways: more regulation, more control, more spending, ponderously slow bureaucracy, etc.

That’s exactly what we got. The result might be watered down or crappy, or not as fast as his base wanted. You might hate it, but were you genuinely surprised by any of it?

By comparison, I have Republicans telling me that we desperately need to cut spending, who are the same assholes who voted for trillions in Medicare Part D spending just a few years ago. I have people trying to lecture me on societal norms and values who are three-time adulterers and/or got caught diddling their underage Congressional staffers. I have Sarah Palin telling me we need to fast-track oil drilling paperwork and reduce safety regulation, then when a platform blows up a week later, saying the problem is not enough federal oversight. I have the Tea Party saying we have to defend the Constitution at all costs, except for that whole freedom of religion part.

As much as I disagree with their philosophy, at least the Democrats seem to working from something approaching internal consistency.

It’s not sufficient to be consistent. You have to be consistently right. Consistent, resolute pursuit of a bad policy leads to bad results.

Of course, aimless non-pursuit of any sort of policy leads to no results, and that has to work out badly in the end. With a policy, there’s a least a chance that it’s not a bad policy, but a workable one.

The Republican policy on immigration is less of it—-via enforcing the laws now on the books. The Democratic policy is more of it, never mind what the law says.

The Democrats policy has this drawback: once the government gets in the habit of ignoring laws, nobody can know any longer what the law really is. Just to be on the safe side, everybody has to cultivate friends in the government so that they have connections when it comes time that it would sure be convenient if some specific law didn’t count in your case.

206 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 12:59:25pm

re: #191 tradewind

Conversely, there’s pretty much nothing that people who disagree with Obama’s politics could do to convince the majority of media outlets and pundits that they aren’t racist, rifle-toting rednecks itching for an excuse to impound foreigners and overthrow the government.

We could do more to marginalize the racist, rifle-toting rednecks itching for an excuse to impound foreigners and overthrow the government.

I have made the long journey from self described conservative to self described moderate precisely because the conservative movement cannot keep the stupidest of them out of the media.

I still harbor hope that I will again someday be able to take pride in limited government interference, fiscal responsibility and a strong love of liberty without being confused with a box of crackers.

207 Amory Blaine  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:00:02pm

It’s becoming a real trend. Has right wing American politics reached such a fever pitch of insanity that this is now a winning strategy — to simply cut yourself off from all possible challenges to your views, and run away from reporters?

Yes because they don’t want to excrete their extreme anti american views to the general public. Some want to hide the fact that they want to get rid of SSI and medicare for example.

208 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:00:43pm

re: #206 DaddyG

We could do more to marginalize the racist, rifle-toting rednecks itching for an excuse to impound foreigners and overthrow the government.

I have made the long journey from self described conservative to self described moderate precisely because the conservative movement cannot keep the stupidest of them out of the media.

I still harbor hope that I will again someday be able to take pride in limited government interference, fiscal responsibility and a strong love of liberty without being confused with a box of crackers.

Afraid that PZ Myers might go after you with some nails? ;)

//

209 simoom  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:01:38pm

Saw this over at reddit:

I work a block from Ground Zero and these are all over the place.

Image: hCltS.jpg

The flyer reads:

You are invited to the
Inaugural Service
of the
9/11 Christian Center
@ Ground Zero

Services will be held every Sunday beginning:
Sunday Sept. 5th
Starting at 11:00am
at the New York Marriott Downtown
85 West Street

Special Guests:
9/11 Families &
1st Responders to the Ground Zero attacks

Come and join us for:
* Powerful praise and worship
* A relevant message for your life by Liveprayers.com’s Bill Keller
* Prayer for your personal needs
* Enter into the presence of God’s Spirit

The answer to the Ground Zero Mosque
is to know the live transforming love of Jesus Christ!

A work of [Link: www,LivePrayer,com…]

210 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:03:00pm

re: #206 DaddyG
Well put. I still believe that conservatives are frequently stereotyped in the media without regard for their actual beliefs. If this is the fault of the screwballs on the extreme ends, then better analysis should point that out.

211 simoom  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:03:00pm

re: #209 simoom

A screen cap a commenter posted of the liveprayer website:
Image: rhMMF.png

212 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:03:14pm

re: #201 Obdicut

I am still curious about “the tradition of the south” meaning in regards to racism. Father to son, well of course, other than that, I am not so sure.

213 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:03:25pm

re: #200 tradewind

LOL. We don’t even consider ’ Irish ’ and ‘Italian ’ as descriptive adjectives down here. How the heck does that still survive?

The nieghborhoods in and around Cominsky park are the best place in the world to get any kind of international food you want. Very authenic. Just don’t ask them to marry one another.

(In fairness I haven’t been there since the 80s so they may have matured just like the Southerners have)

214 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:03:30pm

re: #209 simoom

Saw this over at reddit:

The flyer reads:

That’s homophobic hate preacher Bill Keller:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

215 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:03:33pm

re: #206 DaddyG

We could do more to marginalize the racist, rifle-toting rednecks itching for an excuse to impound foreigners and overthrow the government.

I have made the long journey from self described conservative to self described moderate precisely because the conservative movement cannot keep the stupidest of them out of the media.

I still harbor hope that I will again someday be able to take pride in limited government interference, fiscal responsibility and a strong love of liberty without being confused with a box of crackers.

There’s the rub. I’m not sure what the average moderate conservative can do to help reign in the crazy. I think the problem is, in large part, a lack of a strong leader to unite the party and suppress its uglier elements. The left has done a fairly good job of marginalizing it’s nutters lately. But what do you do when the nutters are former VP candidates, governors, and senators? That’s not so easy to fix from the position of a moderate formerly-GOP voter.

216 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:04:03pm

re: #212 filetandrelease

I am still curious about “the tradition of the south” meaning in regards to racism. Father to son, well of course, other than that, I am not so sure.

Well, there is that little slavery thing.

217 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:04:48pm

re: #212 filetandrelease

I am still curious about “the tradition of the south” meaning in regards to racism. Father to son, well of course, other than that, I am not so sure.

It means the long, dark tradition of extra-judicial murder, lynchings, suppression of voting rights, and judicial murder of blacks in the South.

A more modern example would be the burning of black churches in the south.

[Link: www.hartford-hwp.com…]

218 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:05:11pm

re: #216 Charles
That tradition is behind us. Which is why I asked for clarification, Obd seemed to imply current traditions.

219 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:06:36pm

re: #198 Obdicut

No, I don’t, and I have never said anything equivalent to that.

How many times do I have to talk about the ghettos of Chicago, of LA, to talk about the racism in California, to make you understand that?

Sorry that is how I understood this statement:

There is a tradition of racism in the South, different than the racism in the North, that is not yet gone. It has its roots in dark violence, in ‘strange fruit’, in lynchings and extrajudicial murder. Those roots have evil blossoms in the hate groups that exist there now.

I was reading too fast and didn’t catch your entire context.

220 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:06:41pm

re: #209 simoom
That unfortunate coincidence must really irritate the executive editor of the NYT./

221 wrenchwench  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:06:50pm

re: #216 Charles

Well, there is that little slavery thing.

I think that was in his subconscious:

re: #151 filetandrelease

It gets my shackles up. I always remember along time ago I asked my grand mother who was from Salem MA, that since she saw them both play baseball, who was the better hitter, Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron, her reply, “Well Hank Aaron was black”. Racism has no bounds. And our country is one of the least racist in the world.

222 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:07:02pm

re: #218 filetandrelease

That tradition is behind us. Which is why I asked for clarification, Obd seemed to imply current traditions.

I think it’s fair to say that much of the other traditions mentioned (burning black churches, lynchings, etc) derive from lingering bitterness over the Civil War, in which slavery was a major factor. It’s not like that kind of wound heals quickly, or even can heal completely after only a little over a century.

223 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:07:13pm

re: #217 Obdicut
Thank you for clarification. History is painful. Current burning of churches could be considered some sort of lingering traditions of a few.

224 Slap  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:07:32pm

re: #67 rwdflynavy

I think that cast was totally brilliant….Short, Shearer, Guest, Crystal, McKean and Randy Quaid.

“…..I HATE it when that happens….”

225 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:08:14pm

re: #215 Fozzie Bear

There’s the rub. I’m not sure what the average moderate conservative can do to help reign in the crazy. I think the problem is, in large part, a lack of a strong leader to unite the party and suppress its uglier elements. The left has done a fairly good job of marginalizing it’s nutters lately. But what do you do when the nutters are former VP candidates, governors, and senators? That’s not so easy to fix from the position of a moderate formerly-GOP voter.

You have the actual leadership of the party encouraging the nuts at this point. Michelle Bachmann has danced on the edge of advocating armed rebellion. Sharon Angle went right over the edge and said it may be necessary soon. The Governor of Texas has been talked about succession! All kinds of GOP pols are bring up the code words from Jim Crow about “nullification”, etc. GOP Congressmen are actually siding with the birthers.

This is what Charles has been getting at. The nuts are not on the margin in GOP any more. They took control.

226 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:08:32pm

re: #221 wrenchwench
lol, good catch.

227 wrenchwench  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:10:05pm

re: #226 filetandrelease

lol, good catch.

I was going to nominate it to rotate, but I got busy…

228 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:10:08pm

re: #225 celticdragon

Yep. And I’m not sure how moderate conservatives (who are by now a minority of republicans) can prevail in getting moderate candidates to emerge from GOP primaries, when, well, they are the minority now.

229 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:10:14pm

If you really think there’s no special issue around racism in the south, try going on a music tour through a bunch of small towns in the south with a band made up mostly of African Americans. Like I did. Several times.

I got to see lots of what I’m talking about, up close and personal. Often, people wouldn’t know I was in the band because I was white, and they would say jaw-dropping things to me when they thought the black band members couldn’t hear. I could tell stories that would curl your teeth.

Mandatory disclaimer: not everybody in the south is a racist. There are plenty of great people, and more all the time. But to pretend the legacy of racism is all gone now and the south is just like everywhere else, well sorry — not according to my experience, it isn’t.

230 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:10:17pm

re: #217 Obdicut

It means the long, dark tradition of extra-judicial murder, lynchings, suppression of voting rights, and judicial murder of blacks in the South.

A more modern example would be the burning of black churches in the south.

[Link: www.hartford-hwp.com…]

And suppression of black votes with “intelligence tests” or moving polling places secretly.

231 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:10:28pm

re: #228 Fozzie Bear

(a minority within the GOP, I mean)

232 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:10:42pm

re: #210 tradewind

Well put. I still believe that conservatives are frequently stereotyped in the media without regard for their actual beliefs. If this is the fault of the screwballs on the extreme ends, then better analysis should point that out.


We are sometimes our own worst enemy. I tend to define mainstream as the people in my community I know, work with, dialogue with on line, worship with and play with. I don’t recognize the radicals on the TV and therefore tend to believe they are a minority that do not represent “mainstream conservatism” just as I’m sure most of the left to center Lizards don’t identify with Code Pink or Earth Liberation Front as any where near the Mainstream of their thought.

Of course flash and controversy sell papers and one dimensional characterizations of “them” is what convinces “us” to vote the way we do.

That is not something that is going to change easily. Unless people get fed up and tune it out. Even then that just leaves more voting power in the hands of those who live off of the polarized polity.

233 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:11:45pm

re: #219 DaddyG


The South has a specific tradition of racism: one of violence, murder, and crimes against blacks going uninvestigated, unreported. That is why it came up in the conversation between Ludwig and I in the first place; we were referring to attacks, physical, violent attacks. And, in that conversation, we were not actually saying that this was going to flare up in the South again, we were saying that it was happening in the US in general, but against Muslims.

As the church-burnings show us, there is still a problem with racism towards blacks in the South as well. That is not behind them. It is still there. It is ameliorated, it is better, and of course the work of black Southerners themselves is a large reason for that, but it is still present. It is not gone, and the recent race-baiting by the GOP makes me fear that, in addition to targeting Muslims, old animus will be inflamed.

After all, Ann Coulter just stated that blacks aren’t real Christians, Beck has been preaching that any social justice preacher isn’t a real Christian— which, of course, most black churches are. In amongst the anti-Muslim rhetoric is plenty of anti-black rhetoric.

Now, neither Coulter or Beck are from the South. I am not blaming the South for them. What I am saying is that the tradition of racism in the south, the bloody, violent, dark past, is not so far that it cannot be called back up.

The Confederate flag still flies in many places in the South. It is hard to accept that the past is gone when it is flow high and proud.

234 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:13:11pm

re: #210 tradewind

Well put. I still believe that conservatives are frequently stereotyped in the media without regard for their actual beliefs. If this is the fault of the screwballs on the extreme ends, then better analysis should point that out.

As regards the GOP, it can no longer be honestly said that the GOP has a fringe. It now IS its own former fringe. A majority of republicans believe Obama is a Muslim. That’s more than half. That’s not a statistic that emerges from a party that hasn’t already been consumed and taken over by its own fringe.

235 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:13:11pm

re: #134 Rightwingconspirator

Many observers also believe that the economic growth of the 1990’s was a result of the fact that the Republicans had sufficient control (and eventually actual control) of Congress, which forced both parties to govern to and from the middle.

236 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:13:14pm

re: #215 Fozzie Bear

The left has done a fairly good job of marginalizing it’s nutters lately.

They are also enjoying a relatively stable period of power and influence. I think the GOP is getting a larger share of vocal nutters because they think they can use the recent losses as leverage to gain power within the party.

Its a pretty standard organizational dynamic.

237 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:14:53pm

re: #181 celticdragon

I wonder how far this will go.

All the way.

238 Amory Blaine  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:14:56pm

“I certainly will take my message in a different venue out to the people of Arizona,” she said.

How dangerous will it be when this is all we get?

239 webevintage  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:15:13pm

re: #233 Obdicut


The Confederate flag still flies in many places in the South. It is hard to accept that the past is gone when it is flow high and proud.

Please.
Here in Arkansas they still celebrate Robert E Lee day.
And yeah, it is the same day as MLK day.

240 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:15:15pm

re: #140 Jaerik

Obama also said he would not raise taxes on the middle class.

241 Slap  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:16:02pm

re: #188 Obdicut

Best description of Berkeley I ever saw (and I did work there for three years):

Berkeley is a town that never met a victim it didn’t like.

242 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:16:58pm

re: #229 Charles

If you really think there’s no special issue around racism in the south, try going on a music tour through a bunch of small towns in the south with a band made up mostly of African Americans. Like I did. Several times.

I got to see lots of what I’m talking about, up close and personal. Often, people wouldn’t know I was in the band because I was white, and they would say jaw-dropping things to me when they thought the black band members couldn’t hear. I could tell stories that would curl your teeth.

Mandatory disclaimer: not everybody in the south is a racist. There are plenty of great people, and more all the time. But to pretend the legacy of racism is all gone now and the south is just like everywhere else, well sorry — not according to my experience, it isn’t.


I am in no way trying to say there isn’t a legacy or current issue. I travel all over Georgia with Black colleagues and we get mixed reactions from Blacks and Whites.

What I am saying is those vestigas of the old South are very quickly evaporating and making way for a much more diverse culture. Granted I’m in a major international city so we’re probably a few years ahead of the curve. The Hip Hop and R&B scene in Atlanta is huge and according to my lily white kids quite popular.

Curious? where and when did you tour where you had the worst experiences?

243 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:17:14pm

re: #236 DaddyG

They are also enjoying a relatively stable period of power and influence. I think the GOP is getting a larger share of vocal nutters because they think they can use the recent losses as leverage to gain power within the party.

Its a pretty standard organizational dynamic.

It’s also a pretty dumb move. You don’t regain the center by running to the right. This is what I mean by a lack of strong and rational leadership. There’s nobody who wields enough influence on the right who could possibly reign in the crazy. The only people who possible could, are themselves crazy. I don’t see a way out now for the GOP, apart from going down in flames over the medium term. They may win some elections short term, but that will only cement their demise, as it will reinforce the meme that crazier is better for winning elections. If the GOP gains in November, it will be because voters are disillusioned with the DNC, but the GOP will see it (and spin it) as an endorsement of the batshit loony positions that now comprise the platform.

Long term, this is a lose-lose for the GOP. And yet, they think they are winning.

244 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:17:24pm

re: #233 Obdicut

The South has a specific tradition of racism


Had, none of the traditions you refer to currently exist in the south. Not as a current tradition any way.

245 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:17:33pm

re: #241 Slap

There are plenty of great people in Berkeley. But it is crazy, politically. There’s a reason San Franciscans refer to it as “Bezerkley”

246 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:17:53pm

re: #233 Obdicut

The South has a specific tradition of racism: one of violence, murder, and crimes against blacks going uninvestigated, unreported. That is why it came up in the conversation between Ludwig and I in the first place; we were referring to attacks, physical, violent attacks. And, in that conversation, we were not actually saying that this was going to flare up in the South again, we were saying that it was happening in the US in general, but against Muslims.

As the church-burnings show us, there is still a problem with racism towards blacks in the South as well. That is not behind them. It is still there. It is ameliorated, it is better, and of course the work of black Southerners themselves is a large reason for that, but it is still present. It is not gone, and the recent race-baiting by the GOP makes me fear that, in addition to targeting Muslims, old animus will be inflamed.

After all, Ann Coulter just stated that blacks aren’t real Christians, Beck has been preaching that any social justice preacher isn’t a real Christian— which, of course, most black churches are. In amongst the anti-Muslim rhetoric is plenty of anti-black rhetoric.

Now, neither Coulter or Beck are from the South. I am not blaming the South for them. What I am saying is that the tradition of racism in the south, the bloody, violent, dark past, is not so far that it cannot be called back up.

The Confederate flag still flies in many places in the South. It is hard to accept that the past is gone when it is flow high and proud.

Nothing pisses me off more than when I see a Confederate flag flying at a Scottish Highland games event here in NC.

WTF?

We Scots are rebels…but the proper flag for that is the Rampant Lion flag. (BTW, when a member of the British Royal family visits a highland games here in the US such as last month in SC, it is considered very poor manners to fly the Rampant Lion flag of Clan Stewart, since they are also claimants to the throne of the UK)

I see African American women who have married into a Scottish family and proudly wear the kilted skirt and tartan sash of their husband’s clan at these events, and to fly a Confederate flag is a slap in their faces.

247 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:17:56pm

re: #209 simoom

248 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:18:30pm

re: #244 filetandrelease

Had, none of the traditions you refer to currently exist in the south. Not as a current tradition any way.

You have no understanding of what I’m actually saying, and I don’t think you are actually attempting to understand, given your ‘everyone who criticizes Obama is called racist by the MSM’ meme you’re attempting to push.

249 webevintage  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:19:26pm

re: #240 sliv_the_eli

Obama also said he would not raise taxes on the middle class.

Our taxes have not gone up.
Have yours?

250 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:20:12pm

re: #140 Jaerik

Quite right.

251 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:20:17pm

re: #5 Charles

“W”?

252 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:20:52pm

re: #215 Fozzie Bear

The left has done a fairly good job of marginalizing it’s nutters lately.


There’s a feeling they’re going to marginalize even more this fall.

253 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:21:13pm

re: #239 webevintage

Please.
Here in Arkansas they still celebrate Robert E Lee day.
And yeah, it is the same day as MLK day.


Here in Georgia we have Robert E Lees birthday as a State Holiday but it is observed the day after Thanksgiving to give us a 4 day weekend. Most of us here in State government laugh about it and treat it as an odd historical remnant.

We tend not to glorify our Civil War and Atebellum history here at the Capitol. In fact a friend visiting from Cincinatti was stunned to find very few references to that period of history in our pictures and Capitol Museum. MLK on the other hand is one of the few portraits of people in our Capitol who was not a legislator or Governor of the state.

That is a good thing.

254 Varek Raith  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:21:20pm

re: #252 tradewind

Enjoy the crazies in your party!

255 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:21:28pm

re: #237 negativ

All the way.

Yeah.

I give a better than 50% chance that a Republican controlled House of Representatives will vote for a bill of impeachment. They have no reason to think that they will be punished or have any backlash, since there was none the last time. Whether it actually gets rid of the President is merely secondary to the primary goal of waging their culture war and making the country ungovernable…

Winning is all that counts.

256 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:22:10pm

re: #244 filetandrelease

Had, none of the traditions you refer to currently exist in the south. Not as a current tradition any way.


I see more ugliness towards Mexicans and Latinos than I do Blacks these days. A lot of that is rooted in ignorance about economics and immigration.

257 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:22:26pm

re: #253 DaddyG


Yet you still celebrate Robert E. Lee day.

258 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:22:30pm

re: #240 sliv_the_eli

Obama also said he would not raise taxes on the middle class.


[Link: www.politifact.com…] ?

259 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:23:09pm

re: #248 Obdicut
That was not my comment you referenced, and actually I am trying, which I why I asked for clarification earlier. Most of what you are saying I agree with completely. It is the point of “current” in regard to racist traditions in the south that I do not understand. You refer to burning of churches which I conceded as a lingering racist tradition. But being down here, I simply do not see any racist traditions today.

260 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:23:12pm

re: #253 DaddyG

Here in Georgia we have Robert E Lees birthday as a State Holiday but it is observed the day after Thanksgiving to give us a 4 day weekend. Most of us here in State government laugh about it and treat it as an odd historical remnant.

We tend not to glorify our Civil War and Atebellum history here at the Capitol. In fact a friend visiting from Cincinatti was stunned to find very few references to that period of history in our pictures and Capitol Museum. MLK on the other hand is one of the few portraits of people in our Capitol who was not a legislator or Governor of the state.

That is a good thing.

Read “Confederates in the Attic.”

261 deranged cat  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:23:26pm

re: #243 Fozzie Bear

It’s also a pretty dumb move. You don’t regain the center by running to the right. This is what I mean by a lack of strong and rational leadership. There’s nobody who wields enough influence on the right who could possibly reign in the crazy. The only people who possible could, are themselves crazy. I don’t see a way out now for the GOP, apart from going down in flames over the medium term. They may win some elections short term, but that will only cement their demise, as it will reinforce the meme that crazier is better for winning elections. If the GOP gains in November, it will be because voters are disillusioned with the DNC, but the GOP will see it (and spin it) as an endorsement of the batshit loony positions that now comprise the platform.

Long term, this is a lose-lose for the GOP. And yet, they think they are winning.

I believe what people have been saying about the GOP strategy: good for short term but catastrophic in the long term. (can anybody remember where people have said that? im trying to find some of the articles now)

The idea that people would vote for the GOP now after all this bad crazyness, or that they’re expected to make gains this November based off this bad crazyness is mind boggling to me.

262 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:24:38pm

re: #259 filetandrelease

How do you view the flying of the Confederate flag and the celebration of Robert E. Lee day?

And as a bonus question, what was the overwhelming issue that the Civil War was fought over?

263 Slap  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:24:57pm

re: #245 Obdicut

No disagreement there. I love hanging out in Berkeley — the view from the Hills is beyond amazing, the Greek is my favorite outdoor venue on this coast, and there’s Amoeba on Telegraph.

Twice, while awaiting permits, I had to sit thru City Council meetings.

I kept thinking of a James McMurtry line —

“…he saw both sides of everything and found he couldn’t move”.

264 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:25:06pm

re: #243 Fozzie Bear
Many organizational dynamics are extremely dumb. Mob thinking and all that. But they do exist. The socons are trying to grab this opportunity to prove they are the top dog. I don’t believe their ascendency will be long lived and that some of their candidates will be surprised by losses or close calls in this “can’t lose” election year when the base just doesn’t get excited about their heavy breathing.

Of corse the fire eaters will call even a close call a mandate.

It sure is embarassing for center right in the mean time.

265 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:25:08pm

re: #242 DaddyG
That could have been some time ago, because the most popular groups that perform are African American. We love our musicians here, regardless of color. I can’t imagine a band being harassed.
Granted, I’m in a large city as well. But it was equally true back in my college days in Tuscaloosa.

266 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:25:27pm

re: #238 Amory Blaine

“I certainly will take my message in a different venue out to the people of Arizona,” she said.

How dangerous will it be when this is all we get?

Let’s hope the “different venue” isn’t a Hofbräuhaus in Phoenix.
/
There needs to be a half-slash.

267 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:25:48pm

re: #261 deranged cat

I believe what people have been saying about the GOP strategy: good for short term but catastrophic in the long term. (can anybody remember where people have said that? im trying to find some of the articles now)

The idea that people would vote for the GOP now after all this bad crazyness, or that they’re expected to make gains this November based off this bad crazyness is mind boggling to me.

I’ve been saying that - just has almost every serious pundit.

There is a stunning lack of easily frightened octogenarian Glen Beck viewers coming down the pike in enough different states to make the GOP a valid electoral force much beyond this decade.

268 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:25:57pm

re: #263 Slap

Heh. Good line. And I miss the Berkeley hilsl— I love the little stairways that go up them, like hidden little paths.

269 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:26:12pm

re: #241 Slap

Best description of Berkeley I ever saw (and I did work there for three years):

Berkeley is a town that never met a victim it didn’t like.

Well, it never liked Israeli citizens.

270 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:26:31pm

re: #257 Obdicut

Yet you still celebrate Robert E. Lee day.


I take it off if that is what you mean. I take of labor day too. That doesn’t mean I’m a communist.

271 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:26:33pm

re: #261 deranged cat

I believe what people have been saying about the GOP strategy: good for short term but catastrophic in the long term. (can anybody remember where people have said that? im trying to find some of the articles now)

The idea that people would vote for the GOP now after all this bad crazyness, or that they’re expected to make gains this November based off this bad crazyness is mind boggling to me.

That’s just it. The moderate middle isn’t going to vote for the GOP this November, they are going to vote against the DNC, in all likelihood. This will be seen as an endorsement of the current set of GOP memes, and will seal the ultimate destruction of the GOP. That’s not good for moderates, it isn’t good for (rational moderate) conservatives, and it isn’t good for liberals. It is a wholly destructive process, and its sad.

272 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:26:53pm

re: #262 Obdicut

I don’t see them as racist, but of southern pride. The former usually by a racist. Your other question does not deserve a responce.

273 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:27:11pm

re: #256 DaddyG
I don’t know about your area, but there is a lot of animus between African Americans and Latinos here. More so than between either group and Caucasians.

274 Slap  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:27:31pm

re: #270 DaddyG

I take it off if that is what you mean. I take of labor day too. That doesn’t mean I’m a communist.

Sez who??????
/

275 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:27:33pm

re: #270 DaddyG

I take it off if that is what you mean. I take of labor day too. That doesn’t mean I’m a communist.

I meant ‘You’ as in the state, not you personally.

This is what I mean about the claims that the racist tradition is dead; a man is celebrated who was a general fighting for a group who’s reason for fighting was keeping the institution of slavery.

That is a severe disconnect to the idea that the racism of the past is all behind the South.

276 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:28:14pm

re: #205 lostlakehiker

I would go even further and argue that the Dems’ position erodes the concept of rule of law because it is premised on purely political calculations. The powers that be in the Dem Party believe that the majoirty of illegal immigrants will, if they are made citizens, vote for Dems and maintain the Dem Party’s political power, so they support open borders and amnesty. There is no doubt in my mind that if the Dems believed illegal immigrants would vote for Republicans they would push for enforcement of existing immigration laws.

277 Jaerik  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:28:32pm

re: #240 sliv_the_eli

Obama also said he would not raise taxes on the middle class.

I’m struggling to determine how that’s related to my point. Were you genuinely surprised when he did? He’s a Democrat.

By comparison, “surprise” is not capable of adequately describing my reaction to Republicans voting for a trillion dollars in Medicare Part D spending and then saying we need to… cut spending.

278 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:28:48pm

re: #272 filetandrelease

I don’t see them as racist, but of southern pride. The former usually by a racist. Your other question does not deserve a responce.

Southern pride in what?

And why won’t you answer what the issue that the Civil War was fought over was?

279 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:29:04pm

re: #262 Obdicut
LOL. Things too quiet for you here?

280 Varek Raith  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:29:43pm

Gee, all the Swastika means is German Pride.
///
9_9

281 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:29:46pm

re: #262 Obdicut

How do you view the flying of the Confederate flag and the celebration of Robert E. Lee day?

And as a bonus question, what was the overwhelming issue that the Civil War was fought over?

I’d hardly call what we do with Robert E Lee’s birthday here in Georgia a celebration. In fact we’re not even properly observing MLK day other than to take a long weekend. There is a movement to make MLK day a day of service. That is a good thing.

282 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:30:12pm

re: #279 tradewind

LOL. Things too quiet for you here?

Not at all. I’m about to leave for my birthday dinner.

Your earlier comment saying that nobody can criticize Obama without being called a racist— do you still stand by that?

283 Varek Raith  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:30:35pm

re: #282 Obdicut

Not at all. I’m about to leave for my birthday dinner.

Your earlier comment saying that nobody can criticize Obama without being called a racist— do you still stand by that?

Happy B-day, Gramps!
:)

284 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:31:11pm
The idea that people would vote for the GOP now after all this bad crazyness, or that they’re expected to make gains this November based off this bad crazyness is mind boggling to me.

It took awhile for me to grasp this, since it seems so crazy…but many people are not voting for politicians that will actually try to solve problems. They are voting for politicians who will punish enemies. How badly the GOP screwed things up over the last twenty years is utterly irrelevant. These people HATE (fill in the blank) and vote for the culture warriors who tell them what they want to hear about stopping Nancy Pelosi.

They couldn’t give a shit about bridges collapsing in the Ohio River or failing schools, because those are Liberal concerns to begin with as far as they are concerned. This is what so many progressive pols are just not grasping. Having command of the facts and a plan to deal with problems just makes you look even more like a liberal commie big government tax-and-spender to them, because they vote only to win the Culture War.

285 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:31:13pm

re: #283 Varek Raith

I love getting older. I’m weird that way. I’m, like, hella all into maturity and shiznit.

286 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:31:20pm

re: #276 sliv_the_eli

I would go even further and argue that the Dems’ position erodes the concept of rule of law because it is premised on purely political calculations. The powers that be in the Dem Party believe that the majoirty of illegal immigrants will, if they are made citizens, vote for Dems and maintain the Dem Party’s political power, so they support open borders and amnesty. There is no doubt in my mind that if the Dems believed illegal immigrants would vote for Republicans they would push for enforcement of existing immigration laws.

You are implying that the DNC is actively in favor of illegal immigration. That is borne out neither by the facts, nor by the administration’s approach to this issue. Has it ever occurred to you that many Dems support some kind of amnesty and/or open borders because they have considered the alternatives, and they seem to be worse in their estimation?

287 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:32:03pm

re: #262 Obdicut

How do you view the flying of the Confederate flag and the celebration of Robert E. Lee day?

And as a bonus question, what was the overwhelming issue that the Civil War was fought over?

The answer is not “States Rights”.

288 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:32:26pm

re: #262 Obdicut

How do you view the flying of the Confederate flag and the celebration of Robert E. Lee day?

And as a bonus question, what was the overwhelming issue that the Civil War was fought over?

I do like to ask that question when some yahoo brings up states rights. “States rights to do what?” I say… You can hear the gears grinding in their little minds. Heh.

My family has been in the States since 1621 and the only slave owner in my family tree was a Northern man who owned two house servants that he freed upon his death. Slavery is not a winning issue with me.

289 Stanley Sea  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:32:28pm

re: #282 Obdicut

Not at all. I’m about to leave for my birthday dinner.

Your earlier comment saying that nobody can criticize Obama without being called a racist— do you still stand by that?

HAPPY BIRTHDAY OBDI!

290 webevintage  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:32:53pm

re: #277 Jaerik

I’m struggling to determine how that’s related to my point. Were you genuinely surprised when he did? He’s a Democrat.


I’m still trying to figure out when Obama raised taxes on the middle class.

291 allegro  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:33:11pm

re: #277 Jaerik

re: #240 sliv_the_eli

Obama also said he would not raise taxes on the middle class.

I’m struggling to determine how that’s related to my point. Were you genuinely surprised when he did? He’s a Democrat.

WTF?

292 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:33:20pm

re: #286 Fozzie Bear

You are implying that the DNC is actively in favor of illegal immigration. That is borne out neither by the facts, nor by the administration’s approach to this issue. Has it ever occurred to you that many Dems support some kind of amnesty and/or open borders because they have considered the alternatives, and they seem to be worse in their estimation?


Its just an acceptance of the realization that to deport every illegal would require a fleet of school buses parked nose to tail from san antonio to anchorage……………….

293 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:33:22pm

re: #241 Slap

Reminds me of the best descripion I ever saw of Washington, D.C., supposedly by JFK, of a town that combined all the efficiency of the South with all the cahrm of the North.

294 Varek Raith  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:33:52pm

re: #290 webevintage

I’m still trying to figure out when Obama raised taxes on the middle class.

“A thousand years ago in the future”

295 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:34:14pm

re: #290 webevintage

He lowered their taxes because when you are out of a job you don’t pay any deductions from your paycheck.

296 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:34:38pm

re: #243 Fozzie Bear

Which is why the Republicans may well snatch defeat fromt he jaws of victory this November.

297 ErikJ76  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:35:05pm

If you are going to run, not on your own ideas, but on being anti the ideas of the other party, then you don’t want any debates. Brewer got Fox News to appear on to get her message out while avoiding any pesky questions. I doubt News Corp. wants Fox News to do anything that would hurt the candidates they want elected.

298 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:35:06pm

re: #290 webevintage

I’m still trying to figure out when Obama raised taxes on the middle class.

“most americans didn’t know they got a tax cut”

[Link: www.cbsnews.com…]

299 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:35:09pm

re: #292 wozzablog

Its just an acceptance of the realization that to deport every illegal would require a fleet of school buses parked nose to tail from san antonio to anchorage…

Or some boxcars.

300 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:35:20pm

re: #282 Obdicut
Happy Birthday. Maybe by your next one, you’ll be able to distinguish what was written from what you read. For example, at no point did I use the word ’ nobody ’ in my post, but shazam! It pops up in your ’ quote ‘.
Have fun, don’t eat too much cake.

301 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:36:04pm

re: #295 Ojoe

He lowered their taxes because when you are out of a job you don’t pay any deductions from your paycheck.

so thats what all those bush tax cuts were about………….

302 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:36:23pm

re: #290 webevintage

I’m still trying to figure out when Obama raised taxes on the middle class.

I’m still trying to figure out how otherwise functional, sane people could believe that health care was about death panels to euthanize grandma.

If Hitler was right about one thing, it was the concept of “The Big Lie”.


The phrase was also used in a report prepared during the war by the United States Office of Strategic Services in describing Hitler’s psychological profile:[3][4]

His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.[

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

Any of that seem similar to the news these days?

303 webevintage  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:37:26pm

re: #295 Ojoe

He lowered their taxes because when you are out of a job you don’t pay any deductions from your paycheck.

Lordy, if only Presidents Palin and McCain had won.
We’d all be living in high cotton and havin’ a free market chicken in out pots.

304 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:37:30pm

I have a fundamental disagreement with the idea of taking on massive amounts of debt to prop up failing banks and corporations. I also don’t think steering money into pet causes does anything but enrich those who are smart enough to navigate the paperwork to get federal grants.

Funny though. I’ve never had anybody call me racist for expressing those opinions. I suspet the Tea Party is a bit/ off message if they don’t want to be seen as racist.

(Not that the Dems aren’t taking advantage of it big time to portray the right as racist or at least closet racist.)

305 RadicalModerate  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:37:34pm

I see that Spare posted a “goodbye cruel world” message about an hour ago at the bottom of the dead Netanyahu/Abbas thread from yesterday.

306 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:37:46pm

re: #249 webevintage

Yes, and they will continue to do so. And even if my federal income taxes did not go up, my state and local taxes are going up because the higher levels of government continue to push more obligations to the lower levels, who then have no choice but to raise use, sales and property taxes.

307 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:37:50pm

re: #302 celticdragon

I’m still trying to figure out how otherwise functional, sane people could believe that health care was about death panels to euthanize grandma.

If Hitler was right about one thing, it was the concept of “The Big Lie”.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

Any of that seem similar to the news these days?

i find you in breech of Godwin and demand you buy the thread a case of beer :p

308 Jaerik  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:37:52pm

re: #290 and #291

I’m accepting his point purely for the sake of argument. My point is unchanged regardless.

309 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:39:08pm

re: #271 Fozzie Bear
Cheer up. Look what happened to Mr
’ Close Gitmo Now ’ when he woke up as President and saw his first PDB. The same thing will likely happen to Republicans on the far right who wake up elected. They may have had ideas, but they’ll have to learn to govern in the real world.

310 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:39:24pm

re: #307 wozzablog

i find you in breech of Godwin and demand you buy the thread a case of beer :p

It ain’t a Godwin if they are really Nazis. Just sayin. ;-)

311 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:39:57pm

re: #303 webevintage

Probably the economy would be very similar at the moment had McCain & Palin won, I think.

312 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:40:05pm

re: #306 sliv_the_eli

Yes, and they will continue to do so. And even if my federal income taxes did not go up, my state and local taxes are going up because the higher levels of government continue to push more obligations to the lower levels, who then have no choice but to raise use, sales and property taxes.

A large part of the bailouts were federal funds disbursed to the states to cover their debts. Reality is just not consistent with this take on events.

313 webevintage  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:40:11pm

re: #306 sliv_the_eli

Yes, and they will continue to do so. And even if my federal income taxes did not go up, my state and local taxes are going up because the higher levels of government continue to push more obligations to the lower levels, who then have no choice but to raise use, sales and property taxes.

and so the goal posts move.
Maybe Obama did not raise taxes on the middle class, but it is his fault my local and state gov’t is raising taxes.

314 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:40:33pm

re: #307 wozzablog

i find you in breech of Godwin and demand you buy the thread a case of beer :p

Godwin dies not apply when the comparison is appropriate and does not appeal to hyperbole. The ‘death panels’ meme was a textbook application of “The Big Lie”.

I’ll still spring for the beer, though. :)

315 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:40:48pm

re: #309 tradewind

but they’ll have to learn to govern in the real world.

Or we’ll throw them out in turn.

316 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:41:46pm

re: #278 Obdicut

There is a lot of history in the south with beautiful cities, honorable men, virtuous woman and such to be proud. Most southerners in that era did not own slaves.

317 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:41:47pm

re: #306 sliv_the_eli

Yes, and they will continue to do so. And even if my federal income taxes did not go up, my state and local taxes are going up because the higher levels of government continue to push more obligations to the lower levels, who then have no choice but to raise use, sales and property taxes.


…and don’t forget that you will probably be getting less service for that higher price becuase the States cannot afford to keep current staff levels. We’re back to at least 1999 numbers now with 2-3 million more citizens to care for.

The states and local government are the ones who will really get the shaft when the new health regulations kick in. I worry very much about this and additional semifunded and unfunded mandates.

318 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:42:06pm

re: #277 Jaerik

One should never be surprised by an incumbent politician using the taxpayers’ money to bribe the taxpayers and thereby secure reelction. Taht is true of Dems and Pubs alike.

319 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:42:21pm

re: #305 RadicalModerate
Shoot. Sometimes some very entertaining stream of unconsciousness.

320 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:42:40pm

re: #318 sliv_the_eli

One should never be surprised by an incumbent politician using the taxpayers’ money to bribe the taxpayers and thereby secure reelction. Taht is true of Dems and Pubs alike.

It’s called ‘pork’.

321 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:42:44pm

re: #315 Ojoe
It has always been thus.

322 Varek Raith  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:43:12pm

re: #316 filetandrelease

Oy.

323 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:43:19pm

re: #319 tradewind

Shoot. Sometimes some very entertaining stream of unconsciousness.

LOL!

I’ll have to remember that one.

324 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:43:43pm

re: #321 tradewind

I would like presidential elections to be maybe a year more frequent.

325 webevintage  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:44:00pm

re: #320 celticdragon

It’s called ‘pork’.

Or infrastructure if the money is coming to your locale.

326 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:44:04pm

re: #314 celticdragon

I’ll still spring for the beer, though. :)

i knew i liked you ;-)

327 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:44:45pm

re: #316 filetandrelease

There is a lot of history in the south with beautiful cities, honorable men, virtuous woman and such to be proud. Most southerners in that era did not own slaves.

But they did have black friends who ran about yelling “I don’t know nothin about birthin no babies!”

/sorry - couldn’t resist.

Truly a lot of people have very stereotypical views of other regions and states. Slavery wasn’t a unique Southern institution but politically they did fight to keep it. It took a very corageous Lincoln to outlaw slavery knowing he’d get some serious pushback from powerful groups in places like New York.

328 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:44:57pm

re: #316 filetandrelease

There is a lot of history in the south with beautiful cities, honorable men, virtuous woman and such to be proud. Most southerners in that era did not own slaves.

But most of the actual wealth of the South was built on the backs of slave labor. That included those beautiful cities.

329 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:45:16pm

re: #324 Ojoe
I disagree… I would rather see one term of six years. A lot of time is wasted worrying about getting back in.

330 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:46:07pm

re: #328 celticdragon
Oh, but that didn’t happen up Nawth.//
Yankees did everything with their own hands.

331 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:46:07pm

re: #326 wozzablog

i knew i liked you ;-)

Backatcha. ;)

332 RadicalModerate  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:46:17pm

re: #314 celticdragon

Godwin dies not apply when the comparison is appropriate and does not appeal to hyperbole. The ‘death panels’ meme was a textbook application of “The Big Lie”.

I’ll still spring for the beer, though. :)

Since I switch to strictly German and Belgian beers during the month of September for Oktoberfest, does that count as a Godwin?

333 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:47:14pm

re: #286 Fozzie Bear

In answer to your question, of course it has. The question of what to do about the millions of people who have been allowed, by administrations of both political parties, and by active or passive neglect, to enter or remain in this country illegally — not to mention the children of those who are here illegally — is a difficult question that leads even many people who support strict enforcement of immigration laws to conclude that some sort of amnesty might be appopriate. When it comes to how the power brokers in the DNC view the issue, there is no doubt that they view the issue in terms of potential votes and a potentially “permanent” Dem majoirty and that if they believed illegal immigrants would likely vote Republican, the parties’ official positions on the issue would likely be reversed. Then, again, I’m congenitally a cynic.

334 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:47:20pm

re: #328 celticdragon

But most of the actual wealth of the South was built on the backs of slave labor. That included those beautiful cities.


Pssst… don’t look now but so was a goodly portion of New York and Boston. That doesn’t make the South defending large plantation slavery because it was a part of their economy right. It neither excuses the North from the sin and its consequences as Lincoln was acutely aware.

335 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:47:28pm

re: #329 tradewind

Yes, one term of 5 years then.

Imagine the nightmare of a doofus president discovered to be such after about a year in office, and 5 more years to go.

Even 2 years of that is a bit much.

336 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:47:33pm

re: #330 tradewind

Oh, but that didn’t happen up Nawth.//
Yankees did everything with their own hands.

You bet there was some of that up North, and especially with Boston sea captains who ran the slave ships. As noted above, however, the South fought to keep it that way.

337 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:47:34pm

What really worries me is how easily the generations that are older are willing to succumb to fear and racism. It’s like 9/11 took a bunch of people and made them go, ‘OMG, people don’t like us and want us dead and knee jerk reactions abound.

Now we’re seeing all the chickens come home to roost from years of living in fear of the next terror attack. People respond to fear not by becoming nicer people, they become more xenophobic, more reactionary, more willing to blame the outsider for their world becoming a more dangerous place.

To tie this back to Jan Brewer, she knows she doesn’t have to debate again, she’ll win, even with that terrible debate. There’s enough people who are afraid of the illegals, who want America to be just like the America they had in the 50s. They want to return back to the heyday and the Republican party promises to make America just like the way they want it.

Why should she debate? Through the Liberal disillusionment (OMG Obama sold us out!) and lack of enthusiasm, and through the continued efforts by the Republicans to stonewall any efforts to help pull us out of a very dangerous deflationary cycle, we have a crappy economy and the current party in power is going to pay for it.

It’s negative politics at it’s worst, because it’s not just a party being torn down to win, it’s America being torn down, just so the Republicans get back in power. And the worst part, it looks like it’s working.

338 Amory Blaine  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:47:38pm

re: #317 DaddyG

…and don’t forget that you will probably be getting less service for that higher price becuase the States cannot afford to keep current staff levels. We’re back to at least 1999 numbers now with 2-3 million more citizens to care for.

The states and local government are the ones who will really get the shaft when the new health regulations kick in. I worry very much about this and additional semifunded and unfunded mandates.

Basically the rising cost of health care is what is raising taxes. Health care has been going up steadily at 10+ percent a year for 15 years around here. It will destroy the economy.

339 Why I Never!  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:47:45pm

re: #316 filetandrelease

There is a lot of history in the south with beautiful cities, honorable men, virtuous woman and such to be proud. Most southerners in that era did not own slaves.

You can’t ‘remember’ that era though without also remembering that it was a slave economy. It isn’t possible to ‘remember the Old South’ without also remembering the whole story.

I’m sorry if that hurts the neoconfederates’ feelings— but not really.

340 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:48:04pm

re: #330 tradewind

Oh, but that didn’t happen up Nawth.//
Yankees did everything with their own hands.

No, John Hancock built his place with the money he made from smuggling.

(Seriously)

341 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:48:12pm

re: #332 RadicalModerate

Since I switch to strictly German and Belgian beers during the month of September for Oktoberfest, does that count as a Godwin?


East German or West German?

342 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:48:26pm

re: #332 RadicalModerate

Since I switch to strictly German and Belgian beers during the month of September for Oktoberfest, does that count as a Godwin?

I sure hope not. :(

I likes me some double bock German imports…

343 Nimed  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:48:29pm

re: #329 tradewind

I disagree… I would rather see one term of six years. A lot of time is wasted worrying about getting back in.

Elections for the House are definitely too frequent. Reps spend way too much time either fundraising or campaigning.

344 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:48:36pm

re: #335 Ojoe
Oh, let them at least have as long as the Senate.
I really think we would be able to get a lot more done if the presidential re-election issue was out of the picture.

345 Varek Raith  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:48:56pm

re: #340 EmmmieG

No, John Hancock built his place with the money he made from smuggling.

(Seriously)

Wow.
Hancock was Han Solo?
Imagine that!
/

346 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:49:06pm

re: #334 DaddyG

Pssst… don’t look now but so was a goodly portion of New York and Boston. That doesn’t make the South defending large plantation slavery because it was a part of their economy right. It neither excuses the North from the sin and its consequences as Lincoln was acutely aware.

True.

347 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:49:10pm

re: #344 tradewind

Oh, let them at least have as long as the Senate.
I really think we would be able to get a lot more done if the presidential re-election issue was out of the picture.

Gal in Canada told us their elections last 5 weeks.

Sounds good.

348 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:49:29pm

re: #339 iceweasel
It is a long thread. A bit side tracked at this point.

349 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:49:31pm

re: #337 bloodstar

Now we’re seeing all the chickens come home to roost from years of living in fear of the next terror attack.

Why we should have responded much more strongly right after it happened IMHO.

350 Amory Blaine  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:49:59pm

re: #345 Varek Raith

Wow.
Hancock was Han Solo?
Imagine that!
/

Yes he was a profiteer.

351 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:50:10pm

re: #339 iceweasel

You can’t ‘remember’ that era though without also remembering that it was a slave economy. It isn’t possible to ‘remember the Old South’ without also remembering the whole story.

I’m sorry if that hurts the neoconfederates’ feelings— but not really.

Boldened for emphasis.

352 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:50:32pm

re: #345 Varek Raith

Wow.
Hancock was Han Solo?
Imagine that!
/

Han solo smuggled Dutch tea?

(Only English could be lawfully imported.)

Check out the affair of the Liberty. Apparently his ships often traveled 1/4 full. *ahem*

353 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:51:16pm

re: #349 Ojoe

Why we should have responded much more strongly right after it happened IMHO.

Strongly in what way?

354 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:51:17pm

re: #338 Amory Blaine

Basically the rising cost of health care is what is raising taxes. Health care has been going up steadily at 10+ percent a year for 15 years around here. It will destroy the economy.


Neither private or public solutions seem to be stemming the tide. I worry that we have perhaps reached a period of time when we expect everything to cure us of all our ills yet we aren’t willing to live the life or pay the price to stay healthy or live with our aches and pains.

We demand to be cured in spite of ourselves and demand it in more advanced ages yet we aren’t willing to pay the price.

(Do I sound like I’m about to advocate death panels for Granny?)

355 Varek Raith  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:51:30pm

re: #352 EmmmieG

Han solo smuggled Dutch tea?

(Only English could be lawfully imported.)

Check out the affair of the Liberty. Apparently his ships often traveled 1/4 full. *ahem*

Solo smuggled spice, that count?
:)

356 RadicalModerate  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:51:48pm

re: #341 DaddyG

Munich (Paulaner, Spaten) and Bitburg (Bitburger), so south and west.

357 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:51:52pm

Have fun, gang. Having our 10th wedding anniversary dinner tonight. :)

Gotta get ready.

358 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:51:55pm

re: #340 EmmmieG

No, John Hancock built his place with the money he made from smuggling.

(Seriously)


That is the great American tradition we should be celebrating! Piracy.

359 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:52:07pm

I think Hancock was also one of the many who discovered that George Washington just made it look easy.

Can you imagine what Washington could have done with a real, fully-funded army?

360 Jaerik  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:52:31pm

re: #318 sliv_the_eli

One should never be surprised by an incumbent politician using the taxpayers’ money to bribe the taxpayers and thereby secure reelction. Taht is true of Dems and Pubs alike.

I don’t think you’re understanding my point.

If the Democrats’ official “story” over many decades is that they want to raise taxes and increase benefits and spending, then even if I disagree, I’m not really shocked or surprised when such things happen. It’s consistent with their world view and ideology.

If the Republicans official “story” is that they want to cut spending, and then fail to do so (in fact quite the opposite) at every available opportunity for 30+ years, that’s not the same thing. It points instead to their underlying story being utter bull#&$%.

So now I have to choose between a party which is against my own ideology, but consistently so, and a party who’s stated ideology is complete bull*#&$ from the start. It’s a difficult position to be in.

The current national strategy by the latter seems to be hiding the nature of this dichotomy by flinging so much poo at the former, I’ll somehow forget the fact their own story is bull*@#$. This doesn’t work on me, and I’m depressed that it appears to be working on so many.

361 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:52:37pm

re: #352 EmmmieG

Han solo smuggled Dutch tea?

(Only English could be lawfully imported.)

Check out the affair of the Liberty. Apparently his ships often traveled 1/4 full. *ahem*

He dumped it when he got boarded by an Imperial cruiser.

362 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:52:37pm

re: #358 DaddyG

That is the great American tradition we should be celebrating! Piracy.

Tax avoidance!

363 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:52:45pm

re: #353 Fozzie Bear

With force of course, people who do things like 9-11 only understand force.

364 Varek Raith  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:52:59pm

re: #358 DaddyG

That is the great American tradition we should be celebrating! Piracy.

Arg, matey!

365 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:53:29pm

re: #363 Ojoe
We should never have let Pakistan be the anvil to our hammer.

366 prairiefire  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:53:39pm

I’m starting to think the Republicans are just a bunch of crazy dreamers, swooning over whoever is the next person to push their God and Country buttons.

367 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:53:43pm

re: #356 RadicalModerate

Munich (Paulaner, Spaten) and Bitburg (Bitburger), so south and west.


It would have been harder for me to become a Mormon if I lived in Europe. Miller and Bud weren’t so hard to give up.

368 Amory Blaine  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:53:54pm

re: #354 DaddyG

Neither private or public solutions seem to be stemming the tide. I worry that we have perhaps reached a period of time when we expect everything to cure us of all our ills yet we aren’t willing to live the life or pay the price to stay healthy or live with our aches and pains.

We demand to be cured in spite of ourselves and demand it in more advanced ages yet we aren’t willing to pay the price.

(Do I sound like I’m about to advocate death panels for Granny?)

No that sounds like someone who lives in a country that treats health care like a widget.

369 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:53:54pm

re: #364 Varek Raith

Arg, matey!

Ahem. I have a letter of marque, thank you very much!

370 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:54:32pm

Bye! :)

371 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:54:33pm

re: #366 prairiefire

I’m starting to think the Republicans are just a bunch of crazy dreamers, swooning over whoever is the next person to push their God and Country buttons.


Good, a nother dem we have lulled to sleep.

372 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:54:37pm

re: #359 EmmmieG

I think Hancock was also one of the many who discovered that George Washington just made it look easy.

Can you imagine what Washington could have done with a real, fully-funded army?

Become Governor of an American colony. (Oh you mean after he left the British command?) /

373 prairiefire  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:55:04pm

re: #357 celticdragon

Have fun, gang. Having our 10th wedding anniversary dinner tonight. :)

Gotta get ready.

Congratulations, I hope you both have a great time.

374 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:55:11pm

Yeah, in school they kind of gloss over the fact that the reason the Bostonians were so against the stamp act, tea taxes, etc. it was a hot bed of smuggling.

375 Varek Raith  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:55:21pm

Pirates plunder cargo and sink the ship.
Privateers plunder cargo and sink the ship.
Not much of a distinction, I grant you, but there is one.

376 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:55:31pm

re: #366 prairiefire

I’m starting to think the Republicans are just a bunch of crazy dreamers, swooning over whoever is the next person to push their God and Country buttons.


So I cry when the flag comes by in a parade held by an old war vet.

What of it?

;-)

377 prairiefire  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:55:46pm

re: #371 filetandrelease

Good, a nother dem we have lulled to sleep.

Getting your stealth conservative jujitsu on.

378 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:55:51pm

re: #339 iceweasel
More accurately, it was an agrarian/agricultural economy, whose workforce was largely made up of slave labor.
The tragedy of slavery, and its immorality, might not have been recognized as quickly in the North had its economy depended upon working the land.

379 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:56:44pm

re: #377 prairiefire
We are becoming very sneaky apparently.

380 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:57:11pm

re: #376 DaddyG

The Scout troop here is sometimes the color guard in the 4th of july parade; when we go by sometimes some of the old people put their hands over their heart as the colors pass.

381 Amory Blaine  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:57:24pm

I don’t think Hancock boarded ships and took stuff. That’s piracy. I believe he just had lots of good connections and would like import badly needed stuff that everyone needed and sell them at extreme prices, war profiteering etc.

382 Varek Raith  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:57:47pm

re: #381 Amory Blaine

I don’t think Hancock boarded ships and took stuff. That’s piracy. I believe he just had lots of good connections and would like import badly needed stuff that everyone needed and sell them at extreme prices, war profiteering etc.

Aye.

383 tradewind  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:57:50pm

re: #357 celticdragon
Whoo hoo! Celebrations all over the place. Ya’ll have fun.
Outie.

384 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:57:50pm

re: #379 filetandrelease

We are becoming very sneaky apparently.


Mr. Ovre says ixne on the alkingte!

385 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:57:57pm

re: #312 Fozzie Bear

For the record, if you track back to my original comment, I did not say that President Obama has already raised taxes on the middle class. But it is inevitable that he will have to do so given the massive growth in government spending that he projmised as a candidate and that he has, as even his detractors must admit if they are honest, successfully pushed through Congress. Incidentally, if you live and work in NYC, the $250,000 income thresshold, at which President Obama has proposed raising the highest incremental tax rate, will make you no more than upper middle class. And, yes, I know $250K is far more than most people make, but given the tax burden and cost of housing and living in NYC, $250K is not upper class. If you think it is, try convincing a coop board on Fifth Avenue overlooking Central Park to let you buy an apartment in their building on a $250,000 annual salary.

386 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:59:25pm

Later folks, thanks for the chat, all have a good long weekend.

387 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:59:43pm

re: #372 DaddyG

Become Governor of an American colony. (Oh you mean after he left the British command?) /

The British from the Island considered themselves superior to Colonists. During the F&I war Washington & other colonial officers were actually placed under British officers.

Because, you know, the Virginians couldn’t possibly have known their own country better.

(Anybody want to guess what I’m reading about right now?)

388 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 1:59:47pm

re: #385 sliv_the_eli

WHat percentage of the population makes $250,000 or above a year?

389 Amory Blaine  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:00:26pm

re: #385 sliv_the_eli

How can we live in a country where we invade the middle east for a decade then have the arrogance to believe that taxes should go down “for the children”. Paying for the wars is as patriotic as it gets. Unless you go enlist.

390 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:00:38pm

re: #378 tradewind

More accurately, it was an agrarian/agricultural economy, whose workforce was largely made up of slave labor.
The tragedy of slavery, and its immorality, might not have been recognized as quickly in the North had its economy depended upon working the land.


The history of race based slavery is very interesting. There was a lot about the difference between colonial slavery (the kind that George Washington practiced) and Southern slavery. Still it is an evil the Western World is good to have rid itself of. I do wish we’d stopped it during the revolution but at least we laid the seeds for its demise. I’m also an admirer of the English who managed to stop it without bloodshed.

391 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:00:45pm

re: #376 DaddyG

So I cry when the flag comes by in a parade held by an old war vet.

What of it?

;-)

We had a car full of Pearl Harbor survivors in our 4th of July parade.

It took me a while to realize I could sit back down.

392 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:01:26pm

re: #388 Obdicut

WHat percentage of the population makes $250,000 or above a year?


How about in my dreams? Does that count?

393 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:03:05pm

re: #392 EmmmieG

I’m just trying to figure out how being in the top 1.5% of income earners isn’t being upper class.

394 Varek Raith  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:03:16pm

re: #392 EmmmieG

How about in my dreams? Does that count?

What if one makes their own money?

395 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:03:25pm

re: #380 Ojoe

The Scout troop here is sometimes the color guard in the 4th of july parade; when we go by sometimes some of the old people put their hands over their heart as the colors pass.

My brother and I had the priveledge of accompanying the VFW post color guard in our home town every memorial day. We played echo taps on our trumpets as the veterans marked graves and fired a 21 gun salute.

(I’m one of the few 45 year olds that have eaten breakfast at 5am fixed by a real WWII Army cook.)

The experience and their stories still move me.

396 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:04:50pm

re: #394 Varek Raith

What if one makes their own money?

Yes, but both Imperial credits and rebel currency are only accepted at Comic con.

397 Varek Raith  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:05:03pm

re: #395 DaddyG

My brother and I had the priveledge of accompanying the VFW post color guard in our home town every memorial day. We played echo taps on our trumpets as the veterans marked graves and fired a 21 gun salute.

(I’m one of the few 45 year olds that have eaten breakfast at 5am fixed by a real WWII Army cook.)

The experience and their stories still move me.

That’s what my grandfather was.
Aboard this ship.
:)

398 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:05:19pm

re: #378 tradewind

More accurately, it was an agrarian/agricultural economy, whose workforce was largely made up of slave labor.
The tragedy of slavery, and its immorality, might not have been recognized as quickly in the North had its economy depended upon working the land.

This is true. The reason mechanized industrialization took hold so rapidly in the north as opposed to the south is that the North was more in need of ways to perform mechanical work cheaply. the South already had its means of doing work taken care of.

The history of man can be viewed through the lens of what form of energy was used to perform what task. We are at another crossroads in that regard, and predictably, it is carrying with it some turmoil.

399 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:05:28pm

re: #393 Obdicut

I’m just trying to figure out how being in the top 1.5% of income earners isn’t being upper class.


Americans don’t always vote to lower taxes because they are rich. They often do so because they believe they can become rich.

400 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:05:37pm

re: #338 Amory Blaine

Not completely accurate. What is driving up taxes, at least at the state and local level, is the cost of furnishing health care to working and retired unionized government employees. Many, if not most, states and localities are as bankrupt as GM for the same reason, namely that they secured short term contracts with employees at theoretically lower cost by promising benefits in the future without considering that in the long run those costs would exceed the abiltiy to take in sufficient revenue to pay for them. The only difference between GM and state/local governments in that regard is that the latter do not have to sell cars to secure their revenue; they simply raise taxes.

401 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:05:41pm

re: #393 Obdicut

I’m just trying to figure out how being in the top 1.5% of income earners isn’t being upper class.

when it’s in a society that “abhors” class warfare……….

402 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:06:02pm

re: #396 EmmmieG

Yes, but both Imperial credits and rebel currency are only accepted at Comic con.


Dragon Con is in town in Atlanta today. I’ve seen some interesting creatures riding MARTA.

403 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:06:47pm

re: #394 Varek Raith

What if one makes their own money?


Printing it like the Fed or earning it like a pole dancer?

I’m just trying to clarify.

404 ErikJ76  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:07:24pm

re: #363 Ojoe

With force of course, people who do things like 9-11 only understand force.

Don’t think the problem was too little force. I think the problem was that the force wasn’t applied correctly. I mean, Iraq? Never a hotbed for radical Islamics, and despite what Cheney says, no connections to 9/11.

Also, there’s more things to do than just apply force. A good thing to do is to marginalize those who do things like 9/11, and there are way better ways to accomplish that than by using force.

405 prairiefire  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:07:51pm

re: #376 DaddyG

So I cry when the flag comes by in a parade held by an old war vet.

What of it?

;-)

All my liberal kin do the same thing. I’m thinking of leaders like Sarah Palin and Joe Miller.

406 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:07:56pm

re: #397 Varek Raith
Okinawa. Yikes!

407 Varek Raith  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:07:56pm

re: #403 DaddyG

Printing it like the Fed or earning it like a pole dancer?

I’m just trying to clarify.

Heh!
:P

408 Decatur Deb  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:08:21pm

re: #387 EmmmieG

The British from the Island considered themselves superior to Colonists. During the F&I war Washington & other colonial officers were actually placed under British officers.

Because, you know, the Virginians couldn’t possibly have known their own country better.

(Anybody want to guess what I’m reading about right now?)

Here’s a link to PA records, including some exploits of a young GW around Pittsburgh.

[Link: digital.library.pitt.edu…]

409 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:09:19pm

re: #398 Fozzie Bear

This is true. The reason mechanized industrialization took hold so rapidly in the north as opposed to the south is that the North was more in need of ways to perform mechanical work cheaply. the South already had its means of doing work taken care of.

The history of man can be viewed through the lens of what form of energy was used to perform what task. We are at another crossroads in that regard, and predictably, it is carrying with it some turmoil.

Are you saying bringing back slavery could reduce our dependence on fossil fuels? /

//

///in case that wasn’t clear.

410 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:10:33pm

re: #360 Jaerik

Fair point. I guess I start with the proposition that they are all full of s—. After all, those on the left who now criticize President Obama for, i.e., not closing Gitmo, continuing and ramping up the war in Afghanistan, not pushing through single payer health care, would aruge that he, too, purported to be one thing, but is not. That’s why I tend to judge a candidate by his/her actual voting record rather than what he/she promises to do. I assume the promise is worth less than what you are paying to read my comments.

411 allegro  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:10:38pm

re: #400 sliv_the_eli

Not completely accurate. What is driving up taxes, at least at the state and local level, is the cost of furnishing health care to working and retired unionized government employees. Many, if not most, states and localities are as bankrupt as GM for the same reason, namely that they secured short term contracts with employees at theoretically lower cost by promising benefits in the future without considering that in the long run those costs would exceed the abiltiy to take in sufficient revenue to pay for them. The only difference between GM and state/local governments in that regard is that the latter do not have to sell cars to secure their revenue; they simply raise taxes.

So you are supporter of Single Payer then? That would take care of this problem.

412 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:11:34pm

re: #409 DaddyG

Are you saying bringing back slavery could reduce our dependence on fossil fuels? /

//

///in case that wasn’t clear.

There are an awful lot of teenagers sitting around doing nothing.

413 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:14:05pm

re: #412 EmmmieG

There are an awful lot of teenagers sitting around doing nothing.

An image of rickshaws full of old people being pulled about by teenagers dressed like justin beiber comes to mind.

I would like to be a “musher” for our new adolescent couriers.

414 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:14:58pm

re: #412 EmmmieG

re: #413 Fozzie Bear

At least its not race based slavery. There is some progress there I suppose. /

415 3kids3dogs  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:15:24pm

re: #410 sliv_the_eli

Fair point. I guess I start with the proposition that they are all full of s—. After all, those on the left who now criticize President Obama for, i.e., not closing Gitmo, continuing and ramping up the war in Afghanistan, not pushing through single payer health care, would aruge that he, too, purported to be one thing, but is not. That’s why I tend to judge a candidate by his/her actual voting record rather than what he/she promises to do. I assume the promise is worth less than what you are paying to read my comments.

Obama never promised to push through single payer and always talked about ramping up the “just” Afganistan war.

416 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:17:59pm

re: #388 Obdicut

Back to selectively quoting, are we? What I said is that depending on where you live and work, $250K may in fact place you only in the upper tier of the middle class.
And the answer to your question is the same as the answer to any statistical question, it depends on the population to which you compaire. A resident of Manhattan who receives a gross income of $250K falls far lower on the comparative scale when compared with other residents of Manhattan than with the national popluation. The Manhattan resident’s cost of living is also significantly higher than that of most residents nationwide.

417 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:19:15pm

re: #415 3kids3dogs

Obama never promised to push through single payer and always talked about ramping up the “just” Afganistan war.

quit remembering things. quit it.

418 3kids3dogs  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:21:49pm

re: #417 wozzablog

quit remembering things. quit it.

I can’t help it. I actually listened to what the man said and didn’t project all my hopes and dreams (or fears) onto a presidential candidate. Crazy, huh?

419 Slap  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:23:39pm

re: #305 RadicalModerate

Won’t be missed by me.

He/she/it was, however, an example of just how tolerant this little community can be, given how long they were posting. Kinda gives the lie to the argument that contrary opinions aren’t tolerated here, ‘cause that one sure was.

From me, personally — thanks, Charles.

420 allegro  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:25:11pm

re: #416 sliv_the_eli

A resident of Manhattan who receives a gross income of $250K falls far lower on the comparative scale when compared with other residents of Manhattan than with the national popluation.

Yet, strangely, the national income tax is based on NATIONAL income. There are a number of wealthy neighborhoods in the country. Just because one can’t afford to live in one doesn’t make one automatically middle class. Idiot argument.

421 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:25:25pm

re: #389 Amory Blaine

Longer than a decade. W’s Iraq War was really the epologue of Bush Sr.’s Gulf War, whcih was continued to various degress for the past two decades by Dem and Rep administrations alike. And you won’t hear me complain about paying taxes for the national defense. Whether one ultimately agrees that our wars in the Middle East (hat tip to anyone who can identify who first gave it that name) are justified, national defense is the federal government’s first priority, and it the obligation of everyone of us to foot our share of that bill. I do, however, object to the out of control spending by our federal government during the past several years to, among other things, save the Wall Street fat cats at the expense of future generations.

422 Why I Never!  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:30:43pm

re: #416 sliv_the_eli


And the answer to your question is the same as the answer to any statistical question, it depends on the population to which you compaire. A resident of Manhattan who receives a gross income of $250K falls far lower on the comparative scale when compared with other residents of Manhattan than with the national popluation.

Horsefeathers. Selectively defining ‘manhattan’, are we? It does extend above 86th street, you know.

I think average household income is something like 100K to be middle class in all of manhattan IIRC— suggesting that 250K a year makes you ‘barely middleclass’ may apply to 10021 (east side b/t 65 and 79th roughly) — but not everywhere.

423 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:35:08pm

re: #393 Obdicut

Let’s try this again. Maybe it will get through the second time. $250K places a person in the upper 1.5% of wage earners nationally.
However, a person earning $250K in NY City is not in the top 1.5% of wge earners locally. Moreover, if that person is living, workiing and raising a family in NYC, paying the costs of taxes, housing and other living expenses in NY City and paying off what is likely a six-fugure student debt-load (because not many high school graduates earn that kind of salary), that person is substantially better off financially than the working class and the poor, but is still only living an upper middle class existence. Now, asssuming you have read the entire post rather than the 5 words that confirm your brilliance in your own mind, you might understand how a person who is in the top 1.5% of wage earners nationally can still, in the real world, be middle class (albeit within the upper tier of the middle class).

424 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:37:43pm

re: #419 Slap

Won’t be missed by me.

Nor me.

425 Why I Never!  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:40:00pm

re: #424 wozzablog

Nor me.

re: #424 wozzablog

Nor me.

Hey! i missed you at any rate! Glad you came back after that IRA nonsense.

426 allegro  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:41:00pm

re: #423 sliv_the_eli

Now, asssuming you have read the entire post rather than the 5 words that confirm your brilliance in your own mind, you might understand how a person who is in the top 1.5% of wage earners nationally can still, in the real world, be middle class (albeit within the upper tier of the middle class).

Sweet pea, only in YOUR own mind is someone in the top 1.5% of wage earners in the country in the real world middle class. Getting insulting to someone who is making sense isn’t supporting your argument any better.

427 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:44:06pm

re: #411 allegro

Nope. I am a proponent of mandating that health insurance companies be non-profit entities so their desire to earn a profit and provide their top executives with huge bonuses does not conflict with the need to keep premiums affordable and to pay doctors sufficiently so that the best and brightest will take on the substantial investment in education that is necessary to become a physician rather than going to Wall Street and figuring out how to sell sub-prime mortgage debt as AAA credit.

428 allegro  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:48:42pm

re: #427 sliv_the_eli

Nope. I am a proponent of mandating that health insurance companies be non-profit entities so their desire to earn a profit and provide their top executives with huge bonuses does not conflict with the need to keep premiums affordable and to pay doctors sufficiently so that the best and brightest will take on the substantial investment in education that is necessary to become a physician rather than going to Wall Street and figuring out how to sell sub-prime mortgage debt as AAA credit.

Which does nothing to address the problem you were bemoaning about the health care costs and pensions.

429 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:48:48pm

re: #418 3kids3dogs

Neither did I. In fact, I didn’t proejct any of my hopes and dreams onto him. Although, I will readily admit that, having voted for the other guy, I at least hoped President Obama would be the moderate he claimed he would be rather than the partisan (as distinct from a liberal, extremist, ect.) he has proved to be in practice.

430 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 3:11:06pm

re: #428 allegro

The solution to that problem is to not couple a right to retire at a young age with a promise of taxpayer funded health care for life after retirement and pensions that are based on how much overtime a person can log during the few years before retirement.

431 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 3:15:13pm

re: #426 allegro

You’d be surprised. I know many people at that wage level - alas, I can only aspire to such an income — who nevertheless struggle to pay the bills because the expense of their mortgage/income tax/property tax/student loan repayment/cost of living leaves them with far less than one might think.

432 ErikJ76  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 4:17:17pm

re: #431 sliv_the_eli

You’d be surprised. I know many people at that wage level - alas, I can only aspire to such an income — who nevertheless struggle to pay the bills because the expense of their mortgage/income tax/property tax/student loan repayment/cost of living leaves them with far less than one might think.

Then perhaps they should consider moving somewhere else? And with somewhere else I’m not talking about Nebraska, but the city is filled with lots of people making way less than $250,000 and who still are able to find a place in their price range close enough. I would doubt that the people you know would be unable to do so too.


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