What.

"The doctor is in the house!"

Sounds like malpractice to me.

"If don't know the history of Labor Unions , then you certainly wouldn't understand that Labor day should be called "Making sure we don't all die when our workplace turns into a firey inferno day"

"I'm working today!"

SCAB!

Stupidity.

OT ,, gotta hand it to him

Seam Penns a pretty good actor

Saw MILK this a.m,,, in the middle of I Am Sam right now

(have seen them both before ,,, just sayin ,, giving credit where due)

I am taking the day off without pay.

Needs more Haymarket.

Uhm, no "Doc," you seem to be mistaken. May Day is "Socialism Day," as any idjit who wasn't born after the fall of the USSR should know. Hell, I was born only a couple years before the Berlin Wall fell and even I know what May Day is.

Labor Day is the day when you give thanks that union men and women gave their time, their energy, their money, and even their lives to fight for the laws and privileges that everybody from the snot-nosed high school kid working the fryer at McDonald's to multi-million-a-year execs enjoy.

So socialism is what gave me a four day Labor Day weekend this year? Awesome.

re: #4 sattv4u2

Jeff Spicoli was his greatest role... IMO...

Work place conditions in the west, post Industrial Revolution, are due in part to socialism...

and I say "so what?"

Is the primary qualification for being one of Glenn Beck's guest hosts that you be even stupider than Beck himself?

We know that the Right is completely hostile to the interests of all those people "Labor Day" ever represented. It is still entertaining (or, alternatively, sickening) to observe the contortions their representatives will to through to justify that hostility and make it sound Patriotic and American.

re: #4 sattv4u2

He's great in Carlito's Way too.

These people would argue against life-jackets while watching a passenger ship sink, or against fire hoses while watching a building burn...unless, of course, they were a passenger or inside the building.

re: #14 darthstar

Don't give them life-jackets, teach them how to float.

In fact, 'I'm working today as a union and socialism protest.'
// Doc Thompson.

. I'm working today because it's Monday.

re: #5 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I am taking the day off without pay.

Double time here

DRAWBACK ,,, 12 hours alone while wifey and son frolic at a friends house all day (walk out the back door and right down to the lake)

Swimming
Boating
Jet Skis
all day BBQ

and here I am with a 2 frozen Marie Callender dinners and a pot of coffee!

re: #14 darthstar

These people would argue against life-jackets while watching a passenger ship sink, or against fire hoses while watching a building burn...unless, of course, they were a passenger or inside the building.

You're close. They're the people who'd argue that laws saying that a ship should carry enough lifeboats with enough room for every passenger and crewman aboard and laws saying that every floor of a high-rise should have fire hoses on every floor that are in proper functioning order and regularly inspected are "Socialism!" because if the shipping company or building manager thought it was worth the cost, he'd do it on his own.

re: #13 Winny Spencer

He's great in Carlito's Way too.

Oh yeah ,, the whiney/ wimpey drugged out lawyer

underated movie, imho

re: #18 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

You're close. They're the people who'd argue that laws saying that a ship should carry enough lifeboats with enough room for every passenger and crewman aboard and laws saying that every floor of a high-rise should have fire hoses on every floor that are in proper functioning order and regularly inspected are "Socialism!" because if the shipping company or building manager thought it was worth the cost, he'd do it on his own.

Yes, we can trust the invisible hand of the market to give us the finger gently and lovingly hold workers in its palm.

/triangle factory.

re: #7 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Uhm, no "Doc," you seem to be mistaken. May Day is "Socialism Day," as any idjit who wasn't born after the fall of the USSR should know. Hell, I was born only a couple years before the Berlin Wall fell and even I know what May Day is.

Labor Day is the day when you give thanks that union men and women gave their time, their energy, their money, and even their lives to fight for the laws and privileges that everybody from the snot-nosed high school kid working the fryer at McDonald's to multi-million-a-year execs enjoy.

Ummm.. You actually might want to read up on May Day yourself. [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

re: #7 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Labor Day is the day when you give thanks that union men and women gave their time, their energy, their money, and even their lives to fight for the laws and privileges that everybody from the snot-nosed high school kid working the fryer at McDonald's to multi-million-a-year execs enjoy.

Since when have facts ever stopped these idiots?

A Socialism Day that apparently Beck can go along with, since he's taken the day off.

re: #21 recusancy

Ummm.. You actually might want to read up on May Day yourself. [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

///

Yeah, I'm gonna go sit the corner now and pout.

First I had to give up my Maypole, now they want my BBQ...

/

Here's a Labor Day treat:

There are links there for the rest of it, or to download the whole movie. From New Mexico to you!

This guy is just pissed that he has to work today.

Doc Thompson is an idiot provocateur.

For years I’ve suggested that racism was in decline and yeah, there are some, you know, incidents that still happen with regards to racism, but most of the claims I’ve said for years, well, they’re not really real. But I realize now that I was wrong. For I now too feel the pain of racism. Racism has been dropped at my front door and the front door of all lighter-skinned Americans. The health care bill the president just singed into law includes a 10 percent tax on all indoor tanning sessions starting July 1st, and I say, who uses tanning? Is it dark-skinned people? I don’t think so. I would guess that most tanning sessions are from light-skinned Americans. Why would the President of the United Stats of America — a man who says he understands racism, a man who has been confronted with racism — why would he sign such a racist law? Why would he agree to do that? Well now I feel the pain of racism. [Link: thinkprogress.org...]

re: #25 researchok

First I had to give up my Maypole, now they want my BBQ...

/

First they came for our BBQ, and I said nothing...

re: #20 iceweasel

Yes, we can trust the invisible hand of the market to give us the finger gently and lovingly hold workers in its palm.

/triangle factory.

Like this!

According to a union rep for the 33 trapped Chilean miners, the company that operates the mine has run out of money and can't afford to pay the miners while they sit underground and wait to be rescued.

In this summer of corporate contrition, the owners of the San Esteban mining company have already publicly pleaded in front of the Chilean Parliament for forgiveness. However, union leader Evelyn Olmos reports that the company may soon go bankrupt due the loss of income from the mine and will thus be unable to pay the miners' wages while they are trapped underground. (The company is also not assisting in the miners' rescue; that is being handled by Codelco, a government-run mining company.)

The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire

The fire in the shirtwaist factory in NYC broke out because of poor and dangerous working conditions. 146 European immigrants, mostly women, were killed. Trapped within the building, the doors locked from the outside to prevent them from leaving work early. The fire escape collapsed because it was only built to hold 15 people. Others jumped to their deaths.

As a result of the Triangle fire, the International Ladies’ Garment Workers Union (ILGWU), the union to which some of the Triangle workers belonged, stepped up its organizing efforts and fought to improve working conditions for garment workers. Also a public outcry prompted the New York State Legislature to appoint a commission to investigate the causes of the fire. The commission's investigation, and union organizing, eventually led to the introduction of fire-prevention legislation, factory inspections, liability insurance, and better working conditions for all workers.

I really don't get the kind of union hate you see from the right, even here on LGF every now and again.

If you don't have unions in my mind one of two things will have to happen...

1: Without the power granted by unions, employers will pay their employees less, make them work more, and reduce benefits and so on and so forth.

2: The government will step in to take the place of Unions and we'll get more BIG GOVERNMENT as it establishes things like minimum wages for each individual job/minimum amounts of leave time that can be given.

Is there some third possibility I'm not seeing?

re: #2 jamesfirecat

"The doctor is in the house!"

Sounds like malpractice to me.

"If don't know the history of Labor Unions , then you certainly wouldn't understand that Labor day should be called "Making sure we don't all die when our workplace turns into a firey inferno day"

"I'm working today!"

SCAB!

Glenn belongs, I think, to the line of reasoning that figures that government intervention is quite unnecessary in labor, since thirteen-year-old immigrant seamstresses and African American men with families will be inexorably drawn by market forces to employers who don't lock the doors from the outside, and/or aren't screaming racists, and, in any case, pay a livable wage.

Then again, I think Glenn also thinks that people who actually do something for a living are kind of creepy, and probably communists.

re: #19 sattv4u2

I really admire that he goes for roles with heft, rather than pursuing purely commercial roles. (A major factor in my level of respect for any artist's work.)

If you've never seen Sweet and Lowdown (IMO, one of two Woody Allen films -- the other being Interiors -- that should be considered modern classics), try and find it. Penn's performance there is rich and multi-layered, and worth a look. If you can find it.

re: #10 Jeff In Ohio

Work place conditions in the west, post Industrial Revolution, are due in part to socialism...

and I say "so what?"

And I say, 'good on socialism'.

re: #11 Wayne A. Schneider

Is the primary qualification for being one of Glenn Beck's guest hosts that you be even stupider than Beck himself?

He doesn't like to feel inferior.

re: #31 marjoriemoon

At least justice was done...

The company's owners, Max Blanck and Isaac Harris, had fled to the building's roof when the fire began and survived. They were later put on trial, at which Max Steuer, counsel for the defendants, managed to destroy the credibility of one of the survivors, Kate Alterman, by asking her to repeat her testimony a number of times — which she did without altering key phrases that Steuer believed were perfected before trial. Steuer argued to the jury that Alterman and probably other witnesses had memorized their statements and might even have been told what to say by the prosecutors. The defense also stressed that the prosecution had failed to prove that the owners knew the exit doors were locked at the time in question. The jury acquitted the owners. However, they lost a subsequent civil suit in 1913 and plaintiffs won compensation in the amount of $75 per deceased victim. The insurance company paid Blanck and Harris about $60,000 more than the reported losses, or about $400 per casualty. In 1913, Blanck was once again arrested for locking the door in his factory during working hours. He was fined $20.[24]

Oh, wait...

Someone on twitter says they want Glen Beck to wear a factcheck shock collar, but his fans are claiming she wants him electrocuted...heh.

Who the heck is Doc Thompson? No time to click... is he actor or Pol?
re: #4 sattv4u2
Penn's the poster child for ( paraphrasing) Ingraham's famous ' Shut Up and Sing Act '.
Re the acting chops, though, he's pretty good... even manages sincerity in front of congressional committees.

re: #25 researchok

First I had to give up my Maypole, now they want my BBQ...

/

If we stop celebrating Labor Day because it's socialist, how will summer ever end? It'll just start at Memorial Day and go on forever.

re: #32 jamesfirecat

I really don't get the kind of union hate you see from the right, even here on LGF every now and again.

If you don't have unions in my mind one of two things will have to happen...

1: Without the power granted by unions, employers will pay their employees less, make them work more, and reduce benefits and so on and so forth.

2: The government will step in to take the place of Unions and we'll get more BIG GOVERNMENT as it establishes things like minimum wages for each individual job/minimum amounts of leave time that can be given.

Is there some third possibility I'm not seeing?

Most companies are non union

The one I work for isn't. It employs almost 15,000 people. Non of our competitors are union either. Many thousands more workers.

I don't know anyone in any of those companies that aren't making decent salary/ bennies

NOT saying some companies do/would exploit workers without unions. Just saying many don't without unions

re: #34 Slap

I really admire that he goes for roles with heft, rather than pursuing purely commercial roles. (A major factor in my level of respect for any artist's work.)

If you've never seen Sweet and Lowdown (IMO, one of two Woody Allen films -- the other being Interiors -- that should be considered modern classics), try and find it. Penn's performance there is rich and multi-layered, and worth a look. If you can find it.

Thanks

re: #17 sattv4u2

bitch... i need the money

re: #41 sattv4u2

Most companies are non union

The one I work for isn't. It employs almost 15,000 people. Non of our competitors are union either. Many thousands more workers.

I don't know anyone in any of those companies that aren't making decent salary/ bennies

NOT saying some companies do/would exploit workers without unions. Just saying many don't without unions

What kind of company do you work in?

(If that isn't too personal. Yes I plan to go somewhere with this... I'll also admit I'm non union at the moment as well but I'm part of a start up company so we're expected to be flying by the seat of our pants)

re: #41 sattv4u2

Most companies are non union

The one I work for isn't. It employs almost 15,000 people. Non of our competitors are union either. Many thousands more workers.

I don't know anyone in any of those companies that aren't making decent salary/ bennies

NOT saying some companies do/would exploit workers without unions. Just saying many don't without unions

Because if they start to exploit them the workers would want to form a union. Keep the workers happy and there's no need for a union. But the threat should always be there.

re: #43 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

bitch... i need the money

Back to the kitchen with you!

re: #28 jaunte

Doc Thompson is an idiot provocateur.

Yep, he's an ass.

So the solution of Glenn Beck's body double is that we just return to the 3rd World conditions of the late 18th century? Seems to be in keeping with what a lot of the tea party wants--an end to govt regulation, social security, medicare, etc. What a wonderful America that would be, huh?

re: #44 jamesfirecat

What kind of company do you work in?

(If that isn't too personal. Yes I plan to go somewhere with this... I'll also admit I'm non union at the moment as well but I'm part of a start up company so we're expected to be flying by the seat of our pants)

telecommunications field

multi layers to our (and our competitors) businesses,,, IP providers,,, satellite and fiber optic transmissions,,, end to end business communications including teleconferencing backbone

Another shock jock idiot.

re: #41 sattv4u2

They do do it with the existence, and possibility, of unions, though.

That is a very large part of the point of Labor Day.

OK, I've got to move the desktop PC I'm using right now. Back in a little while.

re: #37 JasonA

At least justice was done...

Oh, wait...

IOW, only the union was the good thing to come out of that.

And to poke the eye of the wingnut idiots that listen to Beck I present the following. The irony is not lost on me:

It gives me great pleasure to pay tribute to the working men and women of America on Labor Day. This occasion brings deserved attention to those who have toiled to build our nation and to shape a prosperous life out of the dreams of early immigrants. Today we recognize the honor and value of all work and the great distinction that flows from a job well done.

From those who first carved a nation out of the wilderness to those who helped cross, settle, and build this country, the working people have made immeasurable contributions to the advancement of our way of life. Through their spirit, minds, and muscles, America's workers have created a modern industrial giant. They have sustained the traditional values of family, work, and neighborhood while serving as the bulwark of American democracy and lending support to the fundamental tenets of our free enterprise system.

As champions of collective bargaining, our workers have furthered a process that has played a major role in America's economic miracle. The legal and proper use of collective bargaining is of primary importance to the continuing development of our nation and the quest for human dignity.

We face many challenges to the future we all seek for this land -- challenges this Administration has addressed through our efforts to revitalize the economy. Following the dictum of Thomas Jefferson not to ``take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned,'' we have reduced taxes and improved incentives for expansion that will rekindle economic growth. By working together we can successfully deal with the problems facing us and usher this nation into a new era of achievement and progress that will be a beacon to all the world. -- Ronald Reagan’s 1982 Message on the Observance of Labor Day

re: #15 Winny Spencer

Don't give them life-jackets, teach them how to float.

WITCH!11!!!

re: #49 sattv4u2

telecommunications field

multi layers to our (and our competitors) businesses,,, IP providers,,, satellite and fiber optic transmissions,,, end to end business communications including teleconferencing backbone

Okay so it'd be safe to say that you're doing very complicated things that a person would need to have a lot of training to do?

The closer you move towards unskilled (or worse yet untrained) labor, the more important unions become for protecting the workers in that particular field...

At least that's my $ 0.02

re: #55 Gus 802

And to poke the eye of the wingnut idiots that listen to Beck I present the following. The irony is not lost on me:

Reagan was a commie!! Who knew?

re: #56 Jeff In Ohio

WITCH!11!!!

If we teach them to float, they won't learn from struggling.

re: #50 Gus 802

Another shock jock idiot.

Wonder if he's a member of SAG-AFTRA.

Unions today are not the unions of yesterday.

We have come from the Triangle tragedy to have American taxpayers having to bear outrageous union legacy costs in both the private and public sectors.

If California goes bankrupt, it will be in no small measure because of unions feeding at the public trough.

See this.

9111 retired California government workers receive pensions in excess of $100,000.

I was listening to the show, while I was awake. He got into it with more than a few callers.

re: #48 palomino

So the solution of Glenn Beck's body double is that we just return to the 3rd World conditions of the late 18th century? Seems to be in keeping with what a lot of the tea party wants--an end to govt regulation, social security, medicare, etc. What a wonderful America that would be, huh?

They may fantasize about the life of the eighteenth century, but what they really want is a return to the late nineteenth, where they imagine themselves being the fat cats, and no interference by the likes of Eugene Debs.

The labor conditions and public morals of 1890, with the Commie phobia of the late 1950s, that would suit them to a T.

re: #60 jaunte

Wonder if he's a member of SAG-AFTRA.

Yeah. I'm wondering too. Also might want to check who's operating the studio and on down the line for WRVA.

re: #55 Gus 802

Ronald Reagan was a liberal by comparison to the tea party extremists of today.

The clowns on the reactionary right can't win in the long run, but they can do a lot of damage over the next few years.

re: #59 iceweasel

If we teach them to float, they won't learn from struggling.

Or DROWNING.

re: #61 researchok

Unions today are not the unions of yesterday.

We have come from the Triangle tragedy to have American taxpayers having to bear outrageous union legacy costs in both the private and public sectors.

If California goes bankrupt, it will be in no small measure because of unions feeding at the public trough.

See this.

9111 retired California government workers receive pensions in excess of $100,000.

How do you suggest we fix this problem?

Fuck. Having the same problems I had this morning.

As I s.aid in the previous thread; Happy Labor Day to all of the Lizard Family

test

Again.

re: #69 PhillyPretzel

Dang punctuation.

re: #63 SanFranciscoZionist

They may fantasize about the life of the eighteenth century, but what they really want is a return to the late nineteenth, where they imagine themselves being the fat cats, and no interference by the likes of Eugene Debs.

The labor conditions and public morals of 1890, with the Commie phobia of the late 1950s, that would suit them to a T.

You're right. I got my late 18th and late 19th mixed up--I'm still hungover...from Saturday night. I think Debs made that recent survey of right wing bloggers that asked "Who is the worst all-time figure in US history?" Somewhere after Obama but well ahead of Nixon.

re: #66 SanFranciscoZionist

Or DROWNING.

Swimming was invented be a socialist!

//

hopefully this guy doesn't take weekends off either(evil unions came up with that.
paid vac.,that too
health care bennies. evil unions again!
eight hour work day...
the list goes on
so this character wants to rename labor day?fair enough.
in that spirt i'll rename him..instead of "doc thompson"he'll now be known as "asshole thompson" and i'll use every opportunity to educate people by using it in all references to this jack-ass.

re: #11 Wayne A. Schneider

Is the primary qualification for being one of Glenn Beck's guest hosts that you be even stupider than Beck himself?

If so, that's a good trick.

re: #67 jamesfirecat

How do you suggest we fix this problem?

How about we start by first acknowledging the problem?

The SF Public Defender recently suggested that union members contribute to their health care coverage. He was excoriated- to say the least.

The union position is that the taxpayer has to bear the cost.

re: #73 palomino

You're right. I got my late 18th and late 19th mixed up--I'm still hungover...from Saturday night. I think Debs made that recent survey of right wing bloggers that asked "Who is the worst all-time figure in US history?" Somewhere after Obama but well ahead of Nixon.

Just checked. Actually, Debs is not on that list. I can't imagine why, unless the bloggers in questions simply don't know who the hell he is.

re: #57 jamesfirecat

Okay so it'd be safe to say that you're doing very complicated things that a person would need to have a lot of training to do?

The closer you move towards unskilled (or worse yet untrained) labor, the more important unions become for protecting the workers in that particular field...

At least that's my $ 0.02

No

Many entry level jobs in the company

We have people out in the field whose only job is to check unmanned sites,, make sure the A/C units are on,,, look at equipment and report any alarms ,,Starting pay is about 40k with bennies and expenses

We have others in our corporate office in Blooomfield Colorado who are janitors,,, work in the cafeteria ,, security ,, again ,, good pay/ bennies

WRVA

History

Although three-letter call signs were still available when the station was started, "WRVA" was chosen since RVA was short for Richmond, VA. WRVA AM 1140 kHz was launched at 9:00 p.m. on November 2, 1925. Known initially as "Edgeworth Radio", it was owned by Larus and Brother, a tobacco company known as the House of Edgeworth. The radio station was originally operated as a public service 2 nights per week.

Socialism!

re: #77 researchok

How about we start by first acknowledging the problem?

The SF Public Defender recently suggested that union members contribute to their health care coverage. He was excoriated- to say the least.

The union position is that the taxpayer has to bear the cost.

Congratulations, I'll give you that one. Union members should pay higher union dues to fix this particular problem...

However this seems to be a problem of when the union in question is working with the government... have you seen any such problems with unions who work with corporations?

re: #55 Gus 802

And to poke the eye of the wingnut idiots that listen to Beck I present the following. The irony is not lost on me:

Reagan too? Is there anyone in American political history who is free of the red taint?

Image: Cloneof1789.jpg

OK, nobody has time for a whole movie. Here's a Labor Day treat that's under five minutes long:

re: #48 palomino
Especially in the era of their birth, unions have had their place in safety, quality of life, etc for salaried workers. But I had a front row seat watching some unions take the corporations that afforded them unbelievably decent wages and benefits and killing them... literally. The efficacy of unions today seems tied to the level of education of their members. The less educated the membership, the easier it is for unscrupulous union bosses to take advantage of them and ultimately take away their livelihood.
For example: ALPA, the pilots' union, is important for airline safety and working conditions, but they also are partners with management in working for the financial health of the company. At the same airline, the unions for ramp agents and ground workers , and sometimes mechanics, have refused any concessions and driven once great companies into bankruptcies from which they never emerged. I flew many trips with gray-haired former EAL and BNA captains who were lucky to be hired by my airline as junior first officers, thanks to the refusal of cleaners and ramp agents' unions to work with those companies to save them.
Killing the goose that lays the golden eggs is a lesson they haven't internalized.

BBIAB ,,, damn ESPN ,, (sorry, RememberTonyC

but your guys in your TOC today are ,, well ,,, not the "A" team!!)

re: #75 Boondock St. Bender

hopefully this guy doesn't take weekends off either(evil unions came up with that.
paid vac.,that too
health care bennies. evil unions again!
eight hour work day...
the list goes on
so this character wants to rename labor day?fair enough.
in that spirt i'll rename him..instead of "doc thompson"he'll now be known as "asshole thompson" and i'll use every opportunity to educate people by using it in all references to this jack-ass.

We profited mightily from changes fought for by socialist and Communist and anarchist activists, and their bleeding-heart liberal allies, here in the States.

That doesn't mean we need to become Soviet Russia or Sweden tomorrow, but these folks went a long way toward making this a civilized country where we could make profit from business and manufacturing, and a working man or woman could still get a decent break. Pretending that that's not so, and that labor relations in the 1800s were perfect until those dang Reds came along is just nonsense, and it's evil nonsense, since it suggests that such changes were never necessary.

re: #83 wrenchwench

OK, nobody has time for a whole movie. Here's a Labor Day treat that's under five minutes long:

[Video]

It better be porn!

re: #77 researchok

The union position on pensions, is, I believe, that they're owed what was promised to them.

These were not unknown costs. Whether or not it was wise to commit to these pensions, to the health insurance payments, etc, they are not a mystery. They were foreseeable. Holding the unions accountable for wanting what they are owed seems a little odd.

In terms of health care-- are you making this claim about all unions in California?

I bet a lot of union sweat went into the construction of WRVA along the way.

G. Hampton Allison - WOODBRIDGE, Va. -- G. Hampton Allison, 90, (Westminister at Lake Ridge, Va.), died Thursday, Aug. 21, 2003, in the Health Center at Westminister of Lake Ridge from complications of diabetes after long illness with Parkinson's disease.

He was born Dec. 8, 1912, in Glade Spring, Va., and was the son of the late Gordon Hampton and Annie Williams Allison. He was a former resident of Emory, Va., Richmond and Alexandria, Va.

He was a 1935 graduate of Emory & Henry College.

He was a TV and radio broadcast engineer.

He worked in Richmond for WRVA-AM, 1942-56, WRNL-AM/FM, 1956-59, designer and chief engineer for WFMV-FM (the first stereo FM radio station in Virginia), 1959-62, worked in Washington, D.C., 1962 until retirement in December 1982, for WTOP-TV and Radio, a station formerly owned by the Washington Post, which was also the CBS network's Washington operations center until they separated in 1964.

He was a retired member of IBEW Local Union 1200.

No doubt it still does. Including a lot of current IBEW members.

Let's lift a drink to the workers of China and India... may they see Strong Unions and soon.

re: #90 Big-Dog

Labor Day is appropriately named. We are rapidly approaching the time where Labor Day will be the Day when our tax burden is paid and the money we earn the rest of the year is ours.

The tradition of Labor Day should be redefined. We labor for government.

If you guys don't stop moping, I'm gonna sing 'The Internationale', and dance on the table.

re: #88 Obdicut

The union position on pensions, is, I believe, that they're owed what was promised to them.

And people who invested in real estate ten years ago want their forty percent return, as well. Tough.
Unions' refusal to roll with the times has done nothing to help their members in the long haul.

re: #78 SanFranciscoZionist

Just checked. Actually, Debs is not on that list. I can't imagine why, unless the bloggers in questions simply don't know who the hell he is.

Was some other labor leader on the list? Maybe Cesar Chavez. Or Upton Sinclair for writing a book, etc?

Actually, it's probably Saul Alinsky, who wasn't a labor leader per se, but in the right wing imagination has taken on the role of bogeyman for anything that can be called socialist. Did you know that he was the evil mentor of both Hillary and Barack; I think he indoctrinated them both in a madrassa in Indonesia.

re: #91 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Indeed. No more of this:

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

[Link: www.thenational.ae...]

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

re: #79 sattv4u2

No

Many entry level jobs in the company

We have people out in the field whose only job is to check unmanned sites,, make sure the A/C units are on,,, look at equipment and report any alarms ,,Starting pay is about 40k with bennies and expenses

We have others in our corporate office in Blooomfield Colorado who are janitors,,, work in the cafeteria ,, security ,, again ,, good pay/ bennies

I can do that. I'm very reliable.

You say they're unmanned, environmentally controlled and I'm in charge? And you'll pay me to grow wee...um, to maker sure everything is as it should be? Sweet.

I'm blue, email me.

re: #93 tradewind

And people who invested in real estate ten years ago want their forty percent return, as well. Tough.
Unions' refusal to roll with the times has done nothing to help their members in the long haul.

I'm not sure you understand what a pension is. It bears no relationship to a real estate investment.

re: #93 tradewind

And people who invested in real estate ten years ago want their forty percent return, as well. Tough.
Unions' refusal to roll with the times has done nothing to help their members in the long haul.

You don't sign a contract that says "the real estate will be worth 40% return in ten years" when you buy a house...

I think there were probably contracts signed during Union to Business /Government negotiations.

Your analogy seems faulty...

Getting a reading on my radar. Big time.

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

exactly,do any of these idiot talking heads even realize that without the labor movement of the 19th and early twentieth century,they themselves would never had had the opurtunities they have been afforded?Ungrateful moron.

re: #83 wrenchwench

Thanks. I enjoyed that!

Ya'll have a happy Labor Day, and remember, if you're a union member determined to get 'what's rightfully yours ': Sixty percent of somethin' is sooo much better than a hundred percent of nothin'.
Just saying.

re: #98 Gus 802

Charles, go ahead and delete my #90 if you wish.

The best book I ever read on how to run a business made it very clear how to solve any union woes: Give your employees the best deal you possibly can. Be generous.

Because then they'll feel like people and not producing/consuming economic entities. This means they will work hard for you and look for more ways for the company to make money. People aren't stupid or lazy and treating them like they are tends to make them so.

re: #81 jamesfirecat

Congratulations, I'll give you that one. Union members should pay higher union dues to fix this particular problem...

However this seems to be a problem of when the union in question is working with the government... have you seen any such problems with unions who work with corporations?

As far as private industry goes, automaker legacy costs are 1500 per vehicle.

re: #104 jamesfirecat

LUCY, YOU GOT SOME SPLAINING TO DO!

Lucy not home. He's gone already. Poof!

re: #94 palomino

Was some other labor leader on the list? Maybe Cesar Chavez. Or Upton Sinclair for writing a book, etc?

Actually, it's probably Saul Alinsky, who wasn't a labor leader per se, but in the right wing imagination has taken on the role of bogeyman for anything that can be called socialist. Did you know that he was the evil mentor of both Hillary and Barack; I think he indoctrinated them both in a madrassa in Indonesia.

Alinsky is on it, tied with Hillary and Bill Clinton for last place. There's actually a curious lack of real Communists on the list at all. They get the Rosenbergs, and Alger Hiss, but they're much too easily distracted by people like Michael Moore and Soros.

re: #100 Gus 802

Getting a reading on my radar. Big time.

Sweet... :)

re: #93 tradewind

exept those who bought real estate took a gamble
pensions (especially govt.ones )are a deal made to be honored.

re: #101 Boondock St. Bender

exactly,do any of these idiot talking heads even realize that without the labor movement of the 19th and early twentieth century,they themselves would never had had the opurtunities they have been afforded?Ungrateful moron.

He's proudly standing on his own shoulders...
His favorite books include Atlas Shrugged

re: #84 tradewind

Especially in the era of their birth, unions have had their place in safety, quality of life, etc for salaried workers. But I had a front row seat watching some unions take the corporations that afforded them unbelievably decent wages and benefits and killing them... literally. The efficacy of unions today seems tied to the level of education of their members. The less educated the membership, the easier it is for unscrupulous union bosses to take advantage of them and ultimately take away their livelihood.
For example: ALPA, the pilots' union, is important for airline safety and working conditions, but they also are partners with management in working for the financial health of the company. At the same airline, the unions for ramp agents and ground workers , and sometimes mechanics, have refused any concessions and driven once great companies into bankruptcies from which they never emerged. I flew many trips with gray-haired former EAL and BNA captains who were lucky to be hired by my airline as junior first officers, thanks to the refusal of cleaners and ramp agents' unions to work with those companies to save them.
Killing the goose that lays the golden eggs is a lesson they haven't internalized.

Fair enough, but a lot of Americans would argue that unions never had a legitimate role, and should all be abolished now.

And the failure of industries can't all be laid at the doorstep of unions. Those successful auto companies--in places like Germany, Japan, S Korea--all have unionized workforces, IIRC.

re: #101 Boondock St. Bender

exactly,do any of these idiot talking heads even realize that without the labor movement of the 19th and early twentieth century,they themselves would never had had the opurtunities they have been afforded?Ungrateful moron.

No, they assume that their middle-class lives came floating down to them out of the heavens. They really don't understand how this all happened. Which sucks, because that means they can't understand U.S. history at all, despite their earnest attempts to rewrite it.

re: #107 researchok

As far as private industry goes, automaker legacy costs are 1500 per vehicle.

Not quite sure I understand how that breaks down.

Are you saying they're owed $1500 per every vehicle they helped make?

re: #109 SanFranciscoZionist

No Angela Davis? Gus Hall? WTF America's Wingnuts?

re: #107 researchok

As far as private industry goes, automaker legacy costs are 1500 per vehicle.

So they shouldn't have made those pension promises if they didn't intend to fulfill them or couldn't fulfill them.

re: #103 tradewind

Ya'll have a happy Labor Day, and remember, if you're a union member determined to get 'what's rightfully yours ': Sixty percent of somethin' is sooo much better than a hundred percent of nothin'.
Just saying.

I was a union member for several years. Thank you for the moral lecture.

My view of unions is somewhat nuanced. In very dangerous businesses like mining, they do help protect the workers and play a positive role. But in my business, they tend to protect mediocre workers if they have seniority, which leads to a less energetic spirit in the workplace. And once the desire to excel is dampened, so too is the spirit to innovate. And a kind of calcification sets in.

re: #115 jamesfirecat

Not quite sure I understand how that breaks down.

Are you saying they're owed $1500 per every vehicle they helped make?

The first 1500 goes to legacy (retired) workers.

re: #116 Jeff In Ohio

No Angela Davis? Gus Hall? WTF America's Wingnuts?

Apathy and ignorance, apathy and ignorance.

re: #116 Jeff In Ohio

No Angela Davis? Gus Hall? WTF America's Wingnuts?

Did they get Randolph?

One of my heroes:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

An imperfect, but great man.

re: #102 marjoriemoon

Thanks. I enjoyed that!

You're welcome! I was going to say, "Buy the album" and give you an Amazon link, but apparently at the moment, Amazon does not exist or cannot be found. The album is "My Name Is Buddy". Buddy is a cat.

re: #113 palomino

Fair enough, but a lot of Americans would argue that unions never had a legitimate role, and should all be abolished now.

And the failure of industries can't all be laid at the doorstep of unions. Those successful auto companies--in places like Germany, Japan, S Korea--all have unionized workforces, IIRC.

They also are usually in countries that are much more 'socialist' than ours.

re: #120 Cannadian Club Akbar

The first 1500 goes to legacy (retired) workers.

So of every X dollars they make selling a car, the first 1500 of it goes to their retired workers?

Do I have it right this time?

re: #118 SanFranciscoZionist
I swear on my tattered Teamsters' card, I wasn't targeting you. Don't feel attacked.

re: #97 Obdicut
Since our pilots retire with eighty percent of their averaged last five years' max earnings for life , yeah, I pretty much get it. Still, contracts aside, pensions have to be funded. The principle is the same. You can't draw what's not there.

re: #103 tradewind

Ya'll have a happy Labor Day, and remember, if you're a union member determined to get 'what's rightfully yours ': Sixty percent of somethin' is sooo much better than a hundred percent of nothin'.
Just saying.

Who do you think builds the nations military hardware? Who do you think welds the ships of the US Navy? A bunch of minimum wage scabs? Yeah, union members should quit to satisfy the wingnut anti-union meme and take a cut in pay. That'll happen I'm sure.

re: #119 _RememberTonyC

absolutely there is good and bad in everything.
characters like this groan on and on about unions,but make no mention of management malfeasance or brutal incompetence.

re: #117 Obdicut

So they shouldn't have made those pension promises if they didn't intend to fulfill them or couldn't fulfill them.

Exactly.

The question is, what do we do to fix the problem?

re: #109 SanFranciscoZionist

Alinsky is on it, tied with Hillary and Bill Clinton for last place. There's actually a curious lack of real Communists on the list at all. They get the Rosenbergs, and Alger Hiss, but they're much too easily distracted by people like Michael Moore and Soros.

Oh, the irony. Joe McCarthy should be on any such list, but he's been rehabilitated on the far right, and is now one of their heroes.

And Alinsky is the root of all evil, just ask Breitbart, Limbaugh, et al. He's taken on such a mythical, almost supernatural, status in right wing circles that his name is now a mere shorthand denunciation for all things seemingly radical or socialist.

re: #125 jamesfirecat

So of every X dollars they make selling a car, the first 1500 of it goes to their retired workers?

Do I have it right this time?

Yes. Before it comes off the assembly line.

So, apparently 12 years old is the age when "go get yourself a yogurt" means "go have an ice cycle." At what age does "Be home by 10" mean "Go out and get pregnant"?

re: #129 researchok

Exactly.

The question is, what do we do to fix the problem?

I don't think the right answer is 'screw the people who are owed money out of the money that they're owed'.

re: #127 Gus 802
Hell's bells, where did I ever say union members should 'quit '? I believe I said they were important.
What I said was they shouldn't follow a path of greed that destroys the corporations that they work for.
Can't say it any more clearly.
Out.

re: #126 tradewind

I swear on my tattered Teamsters' card, I wasn't targeting you. Don't feel attacked.

re: #97 Obdicut
Since our pilots retire with eighty percent of their averaged last five years' max earnings for life , yeah, I pretty much get it. Still, contracts aside, pensions have to be funded. The principle is the same. You can't draw what's not there.

"Still, contracts aside, pensions have to be funded. The principle is the same. You can't draw what's not there."

I honestly don't think you can say that the principle is the same between "well you took a gamble and it didn't pay off" and "well we said we'd give you X and we wrote up a contract that said we would give you X, but we can't... ooops."

re: #119 _RememberTonyC

My view of unions is somewhat nuanced. In very dangerous businesses like mining, they do help protect the workers and play a positive role. But in my business, they tend to protect mediocre workers if they have seniority, which leads to a less energetic spirit in the workplace. And once the desire to excel is dampened, so too is the spirit to innovate. And a kind of calcification sets in.

I've seen the same thing happen in non-unionized companies. For I've found mediocre workers are often exceptional ass kissers. Nothing destroys morale faster than someone who 'has the ear of the boss.'

re: #131 Cannadian Club Akbar

did anyone hold a gun to managements head when they inked the deal?
signing a deal like that showed no forsight whatsoever.
is the the unions fault for accepting it or managements for offering it?

re: #134 tradewind

"A path of greed".

Yeah, that's what's wrong with this country. Goddamn greedy workers.

Image: snap20060621.jpg

re: #134 tradewind

Hell's bells, where did I ever say union members should 'quit '? I believe I said they were important.
What I said was they shouldn't follow a path of greed that destroys the corporations that they work for.
Can't say it any more clearly.
Out.

Greed? Laborers are the problem of greed in this country? And not the corporations?

Hmm, let me see if I have a gallon of moonshine in the apartment.

Don't be "greedy" union workers! Save the corporations!

I wonder how many people are for unions but bitch and scream about financial companies whose executives were promised bonus money by the gubment.

gotta punch out
see you guys later

re: #132 Jeff In Ohio

So, apparently 12 years old is the age when "go get yourself a yogurt" means "go have an ice cycle." At what age does "Be home by 10" mean "Go out and get pregnant"?

I don't know, but you can't be too careful. Don't let her leave the house again.

re: #18 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

You're close. They're the people who'd argue that laws saying that a ship should carry enough lifeboats with enough room for every passenger and crewman aboard and laws saying that every floor of a high-rise should have fire hoses on every floor that are in proper functioning order and regularly inspected are "Socialism!" because if the shipping company or building manager thought it was worth the cost, he'd do it on his own.

The unseen hand of the market place will punish companies and employers that have lots of dead people from a fire that could have been prevented, dontchaknow...
///

re: #133 Obdicut

I don't think the right answer is 'screw the people who are owed money out of the money that they're owed'.

No, of course not.

That said, if we all have to bear the costs of this economic melt down, union members need to pitch in.

re: #138 Obdicut

"A path of greed".

Yeah, that's what's wrong with this country. Goddamn greedy workers.

Image: snap20060621.jpg

That's too much. Labor representing greed.

Nope. Wasn't ENRON. It's not Goldman Sucks. It's not Exxon and Clear Channel. It's not Allstate.

It's the union guy making 20 dollars an hour.

Outrage!

re: #136 Romantic Heretic

I've seen the same thing happen in non-unionized companies. For I've found mediocre workers are often exceptional ass kissers. Nothing destroys morale faster than someone who 'has the ear of the boss.'

that is true ...

re: #137 Boondock St. Bender

did anyone hold a gun to managements head when they inked the deal?
signing a deal like that showed no forsight whatsoever.
is the the unions fault for accepting it or managements for offering it?

One of my fathers friends is retired from GM. He makes a fortune and gets a new car every 2 or 3 years. And i don't care.

re: #145 Gus 802

Damn copper parachutes.

re: #131 Cannadian Club Akbar

Yes. Before it comes off the assembly line.

That wouldn't seem so utterly unbearable because cars sell for around 20,000 at least right?

So we're looking at Only about 7.5% of the profit going there... granted I don't know what other kinds of costs are brought about (how much it costs to make the car) and how much the employees are getting paid, but this seems like it shouldn't be a deal breaker in and of itself, as long as the qualifactions needed to be part of that group that gets the 1,500 are set in a reasonable manner.

That said I know more or less NOTHING about the auto manufacturing industry so maybe you guys can spell it out to me better...

re: #122 Obdicut

Did they get Randolph?

One of my heroes:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

An imperfect, but great man.

Henry Wallace

My goodness, he was Vice President during WAR TIME!11!! OH NOES CALL GLENN ON HIS DAY OFF!!!1111!

Or if you like your history without hyperbole
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

re: #148 jaunte

Damn copper parachutes.

Tin! Or is that paper?

re: #144 researchok

No, of course not.

That said, if we all have to bear the costs of this economic melt down, union members need to pitch in.

Union members are also taxpayers. I don't see any reason for them to accept anything less than the full pensions they were promised.

Now, are you talking about all unions in California, or just the state workers unions?

re: #92 SanFranciscoZionist

If you guys don't stop moping, I'm gonna sing 'The Internationale', and dance on the table.

Nekkid?

re: #144 researchok

No, of course not.

That said, if we all have to bear the costs of this economic melt down, union members need to pitch in.

Much like the top earners at the financial firms, who graciously understood that their bonuses were going to be gift cards to Macys after they trashed the US economy.

No?

No one gives up money they have coming to them. No one. The idea that union workers should be the major exception to this seems improbable to me.

re: #145 Gus 802

That's too much. Labor representing greed.

Nope. Wasn't ENRON. It's not Goldman Sucks. It's not Exxon and Clear Channel. It's not Allstate.

It's the union guy making 20 dollars an hour.

Outrage!

Yeah I once managed to make 20 dollars an hour as a non union intern! Apply yourselves people!

re: #153 Crimsonfisted

Nekkid?

Ah, what the hell.

(Sheds bathrobe...)

Arise, ye prisoners of starvation,
Arise ye wretched of the earth.

Cha cha cha.

re: #152 Obdicut

Union members are also taxpayers. I don't see any reason for them to accept anything less than the full pensions they were promised.

Now, are you talking about all unions in California, or just the state workers unions?

Pretty much all unions (via legacy costs, increased taxes, etc), though state unions are the worst of the lot by far.

re: #155 jamesfirecat

Yeah I once managed to make 20 dollars an hour as a non union intern! Apply yourselves people!

20 dollars an hour! That's like a million dollars a year!

//

Here's one thing I know about unions:

A friend of mine was involved in organizing employees at a university. In the end, they were successful. During and after the organizing effort, my friend suffered threats, a beating, and life-endangering sabotage...done by members of a competing union.

Like all human institutions, unions are a mixed bag. Before they were an institution, there was (IMHO) heroic work to create them.

re: #157 researchok

Pretty much all unions (via legacy costs, increased taxes, etc), though state unions are the worst of the lot by far.

You can always go for the "Right to work" route here in the South, where the wages are low, the poverty is high, and you can be fired without cause.

re: #154 SanFranciscoZionist

Much like the top earners at the financial firms, who graciously understood that their bonuses were going to be gift cards to Macys after they trashed the US economy.

No?

No one gives up money they have coming to them. No one. The idea that union workers should be the major exception to this seems improbable to me.

More than fair.

The only difference is that bonuses (however obscene) are paid from profits already earned. Union legacy costs are ongoing, irrespective of future profits or losses.

re: #157 researchok

Pretty much all unions (via legacy costs, increased taxes, etc), though state unions are the worst of the lot by far.

I'm sorry, but how are the pension costs of unions at private companies in any way not simply the responsibility of those private companies?

re: #158 Gus 802

20 dollars an hour! That's like a million dollars a year!

//

Dude, more like eleventy billion. Your math sucks.
/

re: #159 wrenchwench

Here's one thing I know about unions:

A friend of mine was involved in organizing employees at a university. In the end, they were successful. During and after the organizing effort, my friend suffered threats, a beating, and life-endangering sabotage...done by members of a competing union.

Like all human institutions, unions are a mixed bag. Before they were an institution, there was (IMHO) heroic work to create them.

Yep. I have seen some very good work by aerospace unions in protecting workers, and I have seen some thuggery.

re: #160 celticdragon

You can always go for the "Right to work" route here in the South, where the wages are low, the poverty is high, and you can be fired without cause.

All while living next to a chicken/pig factory (Hi Mr. Perdue) whose run off from the untreated waste is stinking up your house and running into the river you rely on for a few meals a week and the cistern you rely for drinking water.

re: #103 tradewind

Ya'll have a happy Labor Day, and remember, if you're a union member determined to get 'what's rightfully yours ': Sixty percent of somethin' is sooo much better than a hundred percent of nothin'.
Just saying.

Quite Concur. I think private sector unions are basically a good idea, but some of them become greedy and hostile. Public sector unions, however, are bad ideas and should be disbanded.

re: #161 researchok

More than fair.

The only difference is that bonuses (however obscene) are paid from profits already earned. Union legacy costs are ongoing, irrespective of future profits or losses.

Getting back to Trade's house analogy, so are your mortgage payments. That's business.

And as for those bonuses, didn't some of them get paid out of borrowed money a couple years ago?

Honestly, I'm a little hacked at this thread. It's Labor Day, which actually is a day to honor those who got hit in the head with billy clubs so that working people could sit on their asses and barbecue once in a while. And what are we doing? The same keen about the greedy greedy unions.

re: #161 researchok

More than fair.

The only difference is that bonuses (however obscene) are paid from profits already earned. Union legacy costs are ongoing, irrespective of future profits or losses.

That explains those AIG bonuses... wanna try again? Ever hear of a golden parachute?

re: #162 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but how are the pension costs of unions at private companies in any way not simply the responsibility of those private companies?

They are the responsibility of those companies.

That said, increased costs are passed on to the consumer and those higher costs result in higher taxes paid.

Further, union members, not creditors or shareholders are first in line at the bankruptcy line- even after public funds are used to bail out some of. these companies.

Taxpayers and investors are left holding the bag.

re: #161 researchok

More than fair.

The only difference is that bonuses (however obscene) are paid from profits already earned. Union legacy costs are ongoing, irrespective of future profits or losses.

So I was imagining all those obscene bonuses paid at various companies (like the banks 1.5 years ago) even when they were under-performing or actually bleeding to death?

I call bullshit.

re: #168 McSpiff

That explains those AIG bonuses... wanna try again? Ever hear of a golden parachute?

Those were agreed on by the gubment.

Labor is Socialism? That's a mighty crazy notion you have there

re: #156 SanFranciscoZionist

Ah, what the hell.

(Sheds bathrobe...)

Arise, ye prisoners of starvation,
Arise ye wretched of the earth.

Cha cha cha.

[Knocks SFZ down off the table.] Sorry, Communist anthems provoke an extreme reaction from me.

I'm trying to figure out, does this guy actually have some sort of doctorate, or does he just like to call himself a doctor (which seems to be a growing trend, and makes me wonder why I'm in grad school if I can just use the title)?

re: #167 SanFranciscoZionist

Getting back to Trade's house analogy, so are your mortgage payments. That's business.

And as for those bonuses, didn't some of them get paid out of borrowed money a couple years ago?

Honestly, I'm a little hacked at this thread. It's Labor Day, which actually is a day to honor those who got hit in the head with billy clubs so that working people could sit on their asses and barbecue once in a while. And what are we doing? The same keen about the greedy greedy unions.

I don't know about borrowed money for bonuses.

As I noted early on, there is a great distinction between unions back in the day they were needed versus many unions today.

re: #174 scienceisreal

I'm trying to figure out, does this guy actually have some sort of doctorate, or does he just like to call himself a doctor (which seems to be a growing trend, and makes me wonder why I'm in grad school if I can just use the title)?

His name is Doc.

re: #149 jamesfirecat

Those are some of the costs borne by union companies. Which is fine.

Unless they have to compete with non-union companies.

Probably about 7.5% of car buyers (for example) are willing to pay more to get a union car...

(86.9 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot)

re: #176 Cannadian Club Akbar

His name is Doc.

Kinda sounds like a brand name for adult toys.

re: #176 Cannadian Club Akbar

His name is Doc.

Hey, his mother could have named him Alphonse Francis.

/

re: #176 Cannadian Club Akbar

Ah, thank you.

re: #167 SanFranciscoZionist

Getting back to Trade's house analogy, so are your mortgage payments. That's business.

And as for those bonuses, didn't some of them get paid out of borrowed money a couple years ago?

Honestly, I'm a little hacked at this thread. It's Labor Day, which actually is a day to honor those who got hit in the head with billy clubs so that working people could sit on their asses and barbecue once in a while. And what are we doing? The same keen about the greedy greedy unions.

Sorry, but the threads theme is socialism and labor unions. Some what gets said about unions is overheated nonsense, but I know people who have been victimized by unions, fairly badly. Unionism is not all sweetness and light, and it is not wrong to say that.

re: #174 scienceisreal

I'm trying to figure out, does this guy actually have some sort of doctorate, or does he just like to call himself a doctor (which seems to be a growing trend, and makes me wonder why I'm in grad school if I can just use the title)?

Damned straight.

What's your field, btw?

re: #176 Cannadian Club Akbar

His name is Doc.

Grumpy was unavailable.

re: #171 Cannadian Club Akbar

Those were agreed on by the gubment.

Which has nothing to do with what I was saying. The idea that bonuses somehow reflect profit is laughable at best. In some industries, like the financial, they're as expected as union benefits are in others. Companies have gone bankrupt before they stopped paying bonuses.

re: #171 Cannadian Club Akbar

Those were agreed on by the gubment.

That's nice, but isn't the argument against the unions in this thread that just because the gubment agreed is no reason for the unions to get all this money?

re: #174 scienceisreal

I'm trying to figure out, does this guy actually have some sort of doctorate, or does he just like to call himself a doctor (which seems to be a growing trend, and makes me wonder why I'm in grad school if I can just use the title)?

I think Doc's a nickname. I knew a guy, we called him Doc. I never did know his given name.

It's not Dr. Thompsom.

re: #183 wrenchwench

Grumpy was unavailable.

So was Dopey.

So, wouldn't his use of "the doctor is in" at the beginning be considered abuse of a protected term? I believe there are laws against that.

re: #170 celticdragon

So I was imagining all those obscene bonuses paid at various companies (like the banks 1.5 years ago) even when they were under-performing or actually bleeding to death?

I call bullshit.

They have a right to do with those profits as they see fit. If they choose not to pay shareholders or invest in themselves, time to change the Board.

re: #187 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, but Snow White is fucking Goofey.

re: #166 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur. I think private sector unions are basically a good idea, but some of them become greedy and hostile. Public sector unions, however, are bad ideas and should be disbanded.

You can't very well disband any union. 1st Amendment reads:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Also interpreted as freedom of association and freedom of assmebly. Mind you while I strongly support the rights of unions I don't blindly think that ever single corner the inhabit is full of goodness and high ethics. I also don't support card check. However, I support them and oppose the almost cliche like knee jerk reaction to be anti-union.

re: #187 Dark_Falcon

So was Dopey.

He's the one on vacation isn't he?

re: #169 researchok

They are the responsibility of those companies.

That said, increased costs are passed on to the consumer and those higher costs result in higher taxes paid.

I'm sorry, but is this the "businesses price goods at production cost + X" fallacy? Because it really looks like it.

Further, union members, not creditors or shareholders are first in line at the bankruptcy line- even after public funds are used to bail out some of. these companies.

Union members are creditors, in that case. And of course they should be there before shareholders. Shareholders are owners.

Taxpayers and investors are left holding the bag.

It is entirely right for investors to be left holding the bag for debts accrued by the company that they invested in. Another way of looking at the problem is that the shareholders are not liable for anything beyond their initial investment; their risk is shielded. This means investors can favor very risky strategies (like overpromising to unions) because they will never be liable for more than their original investment.

I know that such liability protection is very necessary for healthy investment, but it does mean that some companies knowingly engage in hyper-risky behavior.

The investors are not left liable for the pensions. So the 'bag' is held by taxpayers when we actually bail out those private pension funds. One alternative would be going after those investors to actually get money to fund those pensions that the company they owned part of promised.

So why is the union asked to sacrifice money comping to them, and the investors not asked to sacrifice money that their company owes?

re: #188 scienceisreal

So, wouldn't his use of "the doctor is in" at the beginning be considered abuse of a protected term? I believe there are laws against that.

He's not dispensing medical advice. Just stupidity.

re: #181 Dark_Falcon

Sorry, but the threads theme is socialism and labor unions. Some what gets said about unions is overheated nonsense, but I know people who have been victimized by unions, fairly badly. Unionism is not all sweetness and light, and it is not wrong to say that.

Nobody has said they are all sweetness and light. Nobody at all.

re: #166 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur. I think private sector unions are basically a good idea, but some of them become greedy and hostile. Public sector unions, however, are bad ideas and should be disbanded.

Who needs protection from the government more than the people who work for it?

re: #182 celticdragon

Working on degrees in sociology and statistics at the moment.

re: #189 researchok

They have a right to do with those profits as they see fit. If they choose not to pay shareholders or invest in themselves, time to change the Board.

Here's where I get hung up. "They have a right to do with those profits as they see fit", but unions shouldn't expect to get what they bargained to get? Why is only one side of this arrangement subject to moral censure from the LGF Board of How Shit Oughtta Be?

re: #198 SanFranciscoZionist

Can I be on that board?

re: #197 scienceisreal

Working on degrees in sociology and statistics at the moment.

Is it true 4 out of 5 dentist chew Trident?
/

re: #198 SanFranciscoZionist

Upding for 'the LGF Board of How Shit Oughtta Be.'

re: #199 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Can I be on that board?

I thought you already were. Come sit down here with me and have a drink. I had to put my bathrobe back on after D_F pushed me off the table.

re: #199 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Can I be on that board?

Sure. But first you must join the Amalgamated Lizard Union (ALU).

Can I see your card please?

/

re: #196 wrenchwench

Who needs protection from the government more than the people who work for it?

Untrue. Public sector unions quickly gain too much power within the government, bloat its size and spending, and decrease its effectiveness. Gus is right that they cannot be disbanded, but it would be lawful to strip them of collective bargaining rights, and I think that should be done.

re: #197 scienceisreal

Working on degrees in sociology and statistics at the moment.

Excuse me if I snicker at "sociology" and your nic appearing together. I have a BA in sociology. I always thought the "A" part of the BA was an admission that it's not a real science.

However, the statistics part sobers me right up.

re: #204 Dark_Falcon

What is a union that doesn't have collective bargaining rights, exactly?

re: #203 Gus 802

Sure. But first you must join the Amalgamated Lizard Union (ALU).

Can I see your card please?

/

Well, management sent me. And here's my card... [draws M11 9mm PDW]

re: #200 Cannadian Club Akbar

The survey that generated that figure is questionable. It was conducted in the 1960s, no information on sampling methods or size were released. However, a follow up survey in 1976 indicated that 85% of dentists recommend sugarless gum, so it is not unreasonable to think that ~80% of dentists would prefer trident.

re: #202 SanFranciscoZionist

I thought you already were. Come sit down here with me and have a drink. I had to put my bathrobe back on after D_F pushed me off the table.

Really. It's okay. You can leave it off...

re: #193 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but is this the "businesses price goods at production cost + X" fallacy? Because it really looks like it.

Union members are creditors, in that case. And of course they should be there before shareholders. Shareholders are owners.

It is entirely right for investors to be left holding the bag for debts accrued by the company that they invested in. Another way of looking at the problem is that the shareholders are not liable for anything beyond their initial investment; their risk is shielded. This means investors can favor very risky strategies (like overpromising to unions) because they will never be liable for more than their original investment.

I know that such liability protection is very necessary for healthy investment, but it does mean that some companies knowingly engage in hyper-risky behavior.

The investors are not left liable for the pensions. So the 'bag' is held by taxpayers when we actually bail out those private pension funds. One alternative would be going after those investors to actually get money to fund those pensions that the company they owned part of promised.

So why is the union asked to sacrifice money comping to them, and the investors not asked to sacrifice money that their company owes?

Union members are creditors because their contract says they are creditors. No other employees are regarded as such, a liability on the company's future earnings. Other pension plans are not so constructed.

Yes, investors who make a bad bet ought to lose their position, but they are investing in a company, not in ongoing legacy costs. In some cases, those costs are unfair. Unions want everyone else to pick up their costs, but suggest they participate like everyone else they refuse.

It's not simple.

re: #181 Dark_Falcon

Sorry, but the threads theme is socialism and labor unions. Some what gets said about unions is overheated nonsense, but I know people who have been victimized by unions, fairly badly. Unionism is not all sweetness and light, and it is not wrong to say that.

No human social interaction ever is. Unions got nasty when members started turning up dead back in the late 19th century at some factories and mines, and they returned the favor. The mob got involved (sometimes in both the companies and the unions!) and organized labor never really recovered its image. For every scab beating thug you can name, I could find several instances of abusive and illegal treatment of employees by their employers. I saw it first hand at (rhymes with simko) in Greensboro where employees where being secretly docked pay and over one million disappeared from an employee comp fund. The president of the company was taken out in handcuffs by the FBI about 5 years ago.

We were actually on the verge of staging a one day walkout...even without being a unionized! If a union had made a run and asked for a vote, they would have won 4 to 1, easy.

re: #208 scienceisreal

Good going. We need another straight man around here.

And by straight man I don't mean a man who's straight.

re: #206 Obdicut

What is a union that doesn't have collective bargaining rights, exactly?

A trade association. Those are legal and protected by the First Amendment. Collective Bargaining is not.

re: #208 scienceisreal

Well, you're no fun.
/

In a couple of minutes I really have to go to work and get some shit done for an hour or two.

re: #204 Dark_Falcon

Untrue. Public sector unions quickly gain too much power within the government, bloat its size and spending, and decrease its effectiveness. Gus is right that they cannot be disbanded, but it would be lawful to strip them of collective bargaining rights, and I think that should be done.

Ever seen a mass resignation before? I have, they ain't pretty. You aren't taking away the heart of a union, law or no law.

re: #205 wrenchwench

I actually agree, sociology can be a pretty unscientific field at times. That's why I hide in my office and do my network analysis work, while trying to ignore a large part of my field. Whenever I go to conferences I get in pretty heated arguments with people about research methods.

Off to the store then back to laboring with my mouse. Damn thing weighs at least 3 ounces.

Back later.

re: #198 SanFranciscoZionist

Here's where I get hung up. "They have a right to do with those profits as they see fit", but unions shouldn't expect to get what they bargained to get? Why is only one side of this arrangement subject to moral censure from the LGF Board of How Shit Oughtta Be?

Because it's not the same. Unions get theirs whether or not the company makes a profit.

re: #210 researchok

Union members are creditors because their contract says they are creditors.

Yes. A contract signed by the company. They are creditors.

. No other employees are regarded as such, a liability on the company's future earnings. Other pension plans are not so constructed.

I'm sorry, but what other pension plans? I'm not sure what you mean.

Yes, investors who make a bad bet ought to lose their position, but they are investing in a company, not in ongoing legacy costs. In some cases, those costs are unfair. Unions want everyone else to pick up their costs, but suggest they participate like everyone else they refuse.

I don't get how this is a response to what I said. How is investing in a company not investing in the company including its ongoing legacy costs?

re: #219 researchok

Because it's not the same. Unions get theirs whether or not the company makes a profit.

And Young Men of Genius get their bonuses regardless, and employees have to be paid, regardless.

re: #219 researchok

Because it's not the same. Unions get theirs whether or not the company makes a profit.

Same with bonuses. What's your point?

re: #213 Dark_Falcon

A trade association. Those are legal and protected by the First Amendment. Collective Bargaining is not.

I'm sorry, but a trade association is done by businesses, not by employees.

So I have no idea what you mean by a union that can't collectively bargain being a trade association.

Can you explain?

re: #211 celticdragon

The story of organized crime and organized labor is a complicated one. I'll tell what I know of it some other time (leaving soon), but it is worth noting that unions actually predated modern day organized crime, which evolved in the 1910's and 20's.

re: #206 Obdicut

What is a union that doesn't have collective bargaining rights, exactly?

I believe that a union should have collecting bargaining power. That is actually very democratic.

That said, much, but not all, of legacy costs ought to be tied to profitability.

re: #205 wrenchwench

Oh, also, the nic is just a reference to "They Might Be Giants."

Completely OT, but I'm laughing at this right now:

Jindal Staying Out Of Upcoming Senate Race

He's refusing to endorse Vitter. I can't say I blame him, but it's still hilarious.

BBL

re: #223 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but a trade association is done by businesses, not by employees.

So I have no idea what you mean by a union that can't collectively bargain being a trade association.

Can you explain?

No, I can't. I've actually got to leave now. I'm actually at my parent's house (I was helping my dad move some furniture) and we're going to lunch now. I will be back later to continue this, though.

Whatever the hell it is my wife just made for me to eat looks fucking awesome.

I'm out.

re: #226 scienceisreal

Oh, also, the nic is just a reference to "They Might Be Giants."

Yet another cultural reference that whooshed right over my head.

re: #79 sattv4u2

No

Many entry level jobs in the company

We have people out in the field whose only job is to check unmanned sites,, make sure the A/C units are on,,, look at equipment and report any alarms ,,Starting pay is about 40k with bennies and expenses

We have others in our corporate office in Blooomfield Colorado who are janitors,,, work in the cafeteria ,, security ,, again ,, good pay/ bennies

There's the history of labor unions, there's today's labor unions, and there's today's laws.

I conclude that the existence of labor unions, and laws providing for the right of workers to organize, are necessary. Workers need a way to defend themselves from predatory employers, and the law alone is an insufficient remedy.

If an employer is not predatory, being unionized is all downside. Work rules multiply, work suffers, wages can't rise if the profits aren't there, and unions too can go predatory.

I've got to go to work and run a couple errands. BBL.

In that case, are the burgers I'm grilling socialist burgers? Is the beer I'm drinking a socialist brew?

re: #30 negativ

Like this!

I suggest that after rescuing the miners, the rescuers put the mine's owners in and seal the shaft until the owners come up with the cash to (a) pay the miners and (b) pay for the rescue.

re: #183 wrenchwench

Grumpy was unavailable.

Damn right. I'm still using that name.

re: #224 Dark_Falcon

but it is worth noting that unions actually predated modern day organized crime, which evolved in the 1910's and 20's.

Probably because people were getting tired of being paid in worthless company scrip that could only be redeemed at obscenely overpriced company stores and if they complained, they got beaten with axe handles by Pinkerton men, occasionally shot, and then ordered back to work at gunpoint when the governor summoned the National Guard troops.

re: #234 scienceisreal

In that case, are the burgers I'm grilling socialist burgers? Is the beer I'm drinking a socialist brew?

It's Grill-A-Socialist Burger and Brew-A-Commie Ale.

Sounds good!

re: #231 wrenchwench

Yet another cultural reference that whooshed right over my head.

Great CD/DVD for kids about science by the pop/cult band They Might Be Giants. Highly recommended!

re: #238 Jeff In Ohio

Great CD/DVD for kids about science by the pop/cult band They Might Be Giants. Highly recommended!

IIRC, Charles posted their stuff here.

re: #237 Crimsonfisted

It's Grill-A-Socialist Burger and Brew-A-Commie Ale.

Sounds good!

meh. I have classes today. Guilford College is a Quaker school and does not take off for federal or state holidays.

This poor, poor guy...

Says that Natalie Hollaway's parents have made his life tough for five years...

Don't y'all feel sorry for the little tyke?

re: #241 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

This poor, poor guy...

Says that Natalie Hollaway's parents have made his life tough for five years...

Don't y'all feel sorry for the little tyke?

I hope he gets killed in prison. But then again, I am an asshole.

re: #83 wrenchwench

I second the recommendation. (But I'm easy -- mention Ry Cooder, and I'll reflexively upding.)

It's an extraordinary album, BTW. Utterly unique.

re: #241 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

This poor, poor guy...

Says that Natalie Hollaway's parents have made his life tough for five years...

Don't y'all feel sorry for the little tyke?

I think we should convince his cellmate, Bubba, to console him!

re: #218 Gus 802

Off to the store then back to laboring with my mouse. Damn thing weighs at least 3 ounces.

Back later.

You need to do a lot of 12 ounce curls to build up your muscles. I recommend Great Lakes Brewing Co.'s Burning River Pale Ale.

re: #242 Cannadian Club Akbar

I hope he gets killed in prison. But then again, I am an asshole.

I updinged you not for suggesting that Van Der Sloot should be killed, but rather for your self awareness!

re: #236 celticdragon

Probably because people were getting tired of being paid in worthless company scrip that could only be redeemed at obscenely overpriced company stores and if they complained, they got beaten with axe handles by Pinkerton men, occasionally shot, and then ordered back to work at gunpoint when the governor summoned the National Guard troops.

Yeah, this.

There's a reason why unions started back in the 1910's and 20's, mostly in terms of worker exploitation and horrifying conditions on the job, to say nothing of the company scrip you're talking about.

re: #213 Dark_Falcon

A trade association. Those are legal and protected by the First Amendment. Collective Bargaining is not.

I think he meant, what would it accomplish for the people who were part of it?

re: #241 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Dear Jordan --

Just wanted to let you know that the phrase "don't drop the soap" is really a myth.

Please feel free to drop the soap every time you're in the shower.

Because every time you do, an angel gets its wings.

Only YOU can save the world!

Sincerely,
A Friend

re: #249 Slap

Ding. That's funny.

re: #243 Slap

I second the recommendation. (But I'm easy -- mention Ry Cooder, and I'll reflexively upding.)

It's an extraordinary album, BTW. Utterly unique.

Oh cool, another fan. Here's something fairly obscure, from 1972. I have it on cassette, if it hasn't turned to dust yet.

_{thanks for the reflexive upding}

re: #250 ClaudeMonet

The bastard has changed his story so many times over the years. People can pick any scenario, and the version they like will be among the things he's said. If the parents want to spend money wisely, they'll pay some jailbird to take care of van der Sloot once and for all.

Not really possible for them considering what country he is in, and I think they want him alive and extradited to America. The parents of the girl he murdered down there have a better shot at it, and I imagine somebody will get to Van der Sloot eventually. He is being watched right now before the trial to make sure something like that does not happen.

Back to homework.

re: #252 wrenchwench

WOW. Haven't heard of Jamming With Edward in AGES!

That's a criminally unavailable CD. Not a piece of groundbreaking work, but just fun to hear that bunch happily jamming.

Given the type of shite that gets reissued these days, I'm surprised it hasn't been resurrected since '94...