Bow wow wow... sniff sniff

re: #1 brookly red

Bow wow wow... sniff sniff

Cough...puke...retch blood

The secret waits for eyes unclouded by longing.

— Tao Te Ching

That's totally how Dumbledore hid the Sorcerer's Stone in the first book.

re: #2 palomino

Cough...puke...retch blood

ruh ro... got free health care?

re: #3 elbruce

That's totally how Dumbledore hid the Sorcerer's Stone in the first book.

Ohhh, that explains so much...

re: #4 brookly red

ruh ro... got free health care?

Good one, last time I saw that slogan it was on a t-shirt at a tea party rally.

re: #6 palomino

Good one, last time I saw that slogan it was on a t-shirt at a tea party rally.

never been to one, did you score?

re: #7 brookly red

never been to one, did you score?

all in attendance are good, god-fearing folks, can't you tell?...nothing fun happens

I leave for a little while and a thread pops up and runs 850 posts. WTF people?

BTW, if Obama really quoted Hendrix, I'll vote for him forever. Probably put a poster of him riding a unicorn over my tattered Farrah Fawcett poster. He rocks.

(not really, just tweaking the Obama haters who get worked up over Obamanaughts)

re: #8 palomino

all in attendance are good, god-fearing folks, can't you tell?...nothing fun happens

admit it your a looser :)

re: #10 brookly red

admit it your a looser :)

admit it, you're a prick :)

re: #9 BigPapa

BTW, if Obama really quoted Hendrix, I'll vote for him forever. Probably put a poster of him riding a unicorn over my tattered Farrah Fawcett poster. He rocks.

For fun, I Google-image'd "Obama riding a unicorn" and found a bunch of paintings, but then I noticed he's naked in most of them. WTF?

re: #11 palomino

admit it, you're a prick :)

guilty as charged...

One of the best ever live recordings of Hendrix is the Royal Albert Hall recording of Stone Free, runs about 10 minutes, off a record called 'The Jimi Hendrix Concerts.'

He was obviously not too high, or maybe just enough, but he hit that ethereal plane, flirted with some jazzy stuff. I have to find it now.

Best one:

Image: nakedobamavspalin.jpg

re: #13 brookly red

guilty as charged...

honesty! you've got one quality.

re: #12 elbruce

For fun, I Google-image'd "Obama riding a unicorn" and found a bunch of paintings, but then I noticed he's naked in most of them. WTF?

what part of the emperor has no clothes did you not understand?

re: #15 elbruce

Best one:

Image: nakedobamavspalin.jpg

Did we really have to see that? I know that they're both attractive compared to other politicians, but who wants to see them naked? Ewww.

re: #16 palomino

honesty! you've got one quality.

yes and hated for it... oh well.

re: #12 elbruce

For fun, I Google-image'd "Obama riding a unicorn" and found a bunch of paintings, but then I noticed he's naked in most of them. WTF?

Oh shit Bruce, you've not seen Bad Paintings of Barak Obama? Pure comedy gold.

re: #19 brookly red

yes and hated for it... oh well.

might as well be hated for something

re: #21 palomino

might as well be hated for something

it gets boring after a while, I log on, harsh someones mellow with the truth, get called names & downdinged. Its all so repetitive.

re: #22 brookly red

it gets boring after a while, I log on, harsh someones mellow with the truth, get called names & downdinged. Its all so repetitive.

in fact I can even predict like clock work who can't handle the truth... it's sad sometimes.

re: #23 brookly red

in fact I can even predict like clock work who can't handle the truth... it's sad sometimes.

What's sad is people who repeatedly refer to their partisan spin opinions as "the truth."

New Riders of the Purple Sage Live at My Father's Place on 1981-02-23 (February 23, 1981)

Red Hot Women and Ice Cold Beer

Image: New+Riders+of+the+Purple+Sage.jpg

Alright, I have something stuck in my craw from the last thread (and a lot of these sort of threads actually).

People defending the attacks against Obama by saying "Well the left attacked Bush from day 1!"

No they didn't. Seriously. Bologna.

Yes there were a few dead-enders that were pissed over the close election and thought the election was stolen, but it wasn't for the most part an attack on Bush personally. There was no one calling for Bush's Birth Certificate or saying that Bush was UnAmerican or Anti-American. (I'm sure You'll go out and find some fringe person that did) but that wasn't the rhetoric of the democratic establishment.

There are elected officials, people that we hope, represent the best of us, that are supposed to be above some of the minutia of b.s. that sound exactly like the more extreme elements of the birthers and Tea party folks (extreme elements of it, not the Tea Party folks as a whole, [don't get your panties in a bunch]). You wouldn't See and never Saw a mainstream democrat go after George Bush the way that Bachman, Joe Wilson, Inhofe, and others have gone after Obama. This false equivalency thing is Stifling.

Look, Democrats were largely behind GWB after 9/11. Yes, you had some that questioned the wisdom of going to war with AQ in Afganistan but by in large there weren't any wide scale attacks on him. When he decided to go to war with Iraq many of those dissenters became louder (this is when code pink started) but by and large most of congress with small exception trusted and voted with the President. No one in Congress stood up and yelled "You LIE!!!" when Colin Powell, Condeleeza Rice, or George Bush spoke about Weapons of Mass Destruction.

Obama has had a loud opposition from the moment he was sworn into office. There were websites with the philosphy that said they won't give The President "No Quarter" no matter the decision he makes It would be wrong.

Do you know the moment I found out, and fell in love with this site?

It was when Charles Johnson gave the President kudos over the Pirate Situation (forgot about that, didn't you). Many of the commenter on this site and the rest of the right blogosphere pooped on him, but he gave credit where credit was due. Pirates were killed, Americans were saved and still Rush Limbaugh and the rest of the right were yelling about him "Killing Africans" or putting their lives at risk.

No, not all complaints about the President are Racist. Most of them aren't. The vast majority are legitimate complaints about where they think he will take the country. But when someone points out the racism of some comments, it does no good to yell "See everything you say about this president is Racist!" When I see a bone through the nose Bush then you can say the Obama sign isn't racist. When we see the Ronald Regan watermelon patch outside the White House, they we can say the Obama mail forward isn't racist. When we ask to see any other former President's Long Form Birth Certificate then,... you get it.

Frank Zappa - Camarillo Brillo

Hey kids...having a great time in San Diego...barbecued 12 pounds of chicken and 21 ears of corn for a birthday party before diving head first into 10 pounds of smoked pork butt someone else brought to the event. Drank tons of wine, ate some other good foods, visited, and missed the whole Jimi Hendrix thread. Maybe tomorrow President Obama will ask the nation, "Are you experienced? Have you ever been experienced?...well, I ha-aaave..."

re: #24 elbruce

What's sad is people who repeatedly refer to their partisan spin opinions as "the truth."

OK Bruce as you like it...

Obama has forced the world to respect us, the economy has completely improved since bush-hitler, al quada is sending us chocolates & erecting monuments to Obama in Mecca, the whole world is running on wind power and there is no poverty anywhere.

If the check bounces they will never find you :)

re: #28 darthstar

Hey kids...having a great time in San Diego...barbecued 12 pounds of chicken and 21 ears of corn for a birthday party before diving head first into 10 pounds of smoked pork butt someone else brought to the event. Drank tons of wine, ate some other good foods, visited, and missed the whole Jimi Hendrix thread. Maybe tomorrow President Obama will ask the nation, "Are you experienced? Have you ever been experienced?...well, I ha-aaave..."

Castles Made of Sand- Jimi Hendrix

Surprise attack, killed him in his sleep that night.

Only dead fish go with the flow.

Sarah Palin

Jimi Hendrix - Little Wing

re: #29 brookly red

Obama has forced the world to respect us, the economy has completely improved since bush-hitler, al quada is sending us chocolates & erecting monuments to Obama in Mecca, the whole world is running on wind power and there is no poverty anywhere.

Is all of that would it take for you to admit he was doing a good job at all? Figures.

First of all, the world respects us a hell of a lot more than they did before Obama came along.

And of course the economy hasn't improved yet. No matter who was in office or what they did, it would take a lot longer than now. Check out this chart. Obama assumed office in the 14th month on the red curve there.

As for the rest of it, you're just being silly. Nobody wants Al Qaeda to send us chocolates, they're terrorists. Erecting monuments to Western leaders in Mecca would be sacrilegious. Right wingers such as yourself generally oppose measures to increasing alternative energy.

re: #34 elbruce

Is all of that would it take for you to admit he was doing a good job at all? Figures.

First of all, the world respects us a hell of a lot more than they did before Obama came along.

And of course the economy hasn't improved yet. No matter who was in office or what they did, it would take a lot longer than now. Check out this chart. Obama assumed office in the 14th month on the red curve there.

As for the rest of it, you're just being silly. Nobody wants Al Qaeda to send us chocolates, they're terrorists. Erecting monuments to Western leaders in Mecca would be sacrilegious. Right wingers such as yourself generally oppose measures to increasing alternative energy.

buh bye burcie

re: #26 TheQuis

Look, Democrats were largely behind GWB after 9/11. Yes, you had some that questioned the wisdom of going to war with AQ in Afganistan but by in large there weren't any wide scale attacks on him. When he decided to go to war with Iraq many of those dissenters became louder (this is when code pink started) but by and large most of congress with small exception trusted and voted with the President. No one in Congress stood up and yelled "You LIE!!!" when Colin Powell, Condeleeza Rice, or George Bush spoke about Weapons of Mass Destruction.

I backed him back then. When he said he'd seen the evidence of WMD's, I believed him. I just figured he couldn't show us the evidence because it might expose our spies in Iraq or something. I couldn't for the life of me imagine that he'd just flat-out be lying about it all. Not even Nixon would have lied like that.

re: #35 brookly red

buh bye burcie

buh bye.

re: #36 elbruce

I backed him back then. When he said he'd seen the evidence of WMD's, I believed him. I just figured he couldn't show us the evidence because it might expose our spies in Iraq or something. I couldn't for the life of me imagine that he'd just flat-out be lying about it all. Not even Nixon would have lied like that.

I still don't think he "lied" I think he may have just over sold the shoddy information he had as the absolute truth.

re: #38 TheQuis

I still don't think he "lied" I think he may have just over sold the shoddy information he had as the absolute truth.

It was his responsibility to check and verify that the information wasn't shoddy before he risked the lives of our troops over it. Sorry, refusing to find out whether your information is wrong before you decide based on it is just as bad as knowing for sure that it's wrong.

re: #39 elbruce

It was his responsibility to check and verify that the information wasn't shoddy before he risked the lives of our troops over it. Sorry, refusing to find out whether your information is wrong before you decide based on it is just as bad as knowing for sure that it's wrong.

I agree with you that it is his responsibility to verify and to check. You're absolutely right. I'm ascribing, I guess, to the level of villainous intent. There are some that think he knowingly lied. I don't. I realize that either way there are men and women killed (and I say this with a brother and sister that have served in the Army and The Air force in the last 4 years) BUT a mistake is less graven than a lie.

re: #40 TheQuis

I agree with you that it is his responsibility to verify and to check. You're absolutely right. I'm ascribing, I guess, to the level of villainous intent. There are some that think he knowingly lied. I don't. I realize that either way there are men and women killed (and I say this with a brother and sister that have served in the Army and The Air force in the last 4 years) BUT a mistake is less graven than a lie.

A mistake is only less graven than a lie when you don't have very much power. But when you do have a lot of power, the results of either are exactly indistinguishable. I spent a lot of time worrying whether bush was evil or just stupid, until I finally realized it just doesn't matter. Either is just as bad as the other, when you're making life-and-death decisions for thousands of people.

I think in Bush's mind, it wasn't a matter of lies or mistakes. To him, WMD's were merely a convenient talking point that could get him want he wanted, namely war with Iraq. I'm sure he had the best of intentions, but I think he believed the end of a stable Iraq would justify the means of him saying whatever he needed to in order to get us to go to war.

That's quite a stretch. A lie is the same as a mistake when you have power?

re: #43 BigPapa

A lie is the same as a mistake when you have power?

To the people who die for it, the people who suffer for it, and the people who have to live with it - that is to say everybody - yes. That's kind of what "responsibility" means.

re: #42 Okami

I think in Bush's mind, it wasn't a matter of lies or mistakes. To him, WMD's were merely a convenient talking point that could get him want he wanted, namely war with Iraq. I'm sure he had the best of intentions, but I think he believed the end of a stable Iraq would justify the means of him saying whatever he needed to in order to get us to go to war.

Lying to start a war because you believe the ends justify the means, does not constitute "the best of intentions."

So motivation doesn't matter, only results, when you have power?

After 17 days, Australia finally has a government again! Huzzah!

In case you haven't been following the news, here is a quick summary of the last couple of months.

About 2 months ago, Kevin Rudd, our previous PM, was in trouble. We don't know the exact details, but his popularity was freefalling as a result of some disastrous policy decisions, and quite possibly threatening Labor's chances of re-election.

So, he was ousted by his own party, and replaced by his more popular deputy, Julia Gillard. And so we had out first female PM, even though we hadn't actually voted for her yet.

But we did vote 17 days ago, and the result was pretty screwy. Neither major party, Labor (centre-left) nor Liberal/National Coalition (centre-right) was able to get the 76 seats needed for a majority, resulting in a hung parliament.

So, over the past 17 days, the two major parties have been wheeling and dealing to get support from one member of the Green party, and four independents, three of them from conservative rural seats.

The Green and the small-l liberal independent went for Labor (not surprising), leaving Labor on 74 seats, the Coalition on 73. And in the last few hours, after more than a week of making their minds up, two of the three conservative independents went for Labor too!

So now, Labor has the magic 76, and Gillard stays as PM. But what she now has to deal with is:

a) a Coalition that will likely oppose her every step of the way;
b) members of her own party that might be pissed off over what happened to Kevin Rudd;
c) the Greens, who proffered their support only on certain conditions concerning debate and possible implementation of their policies; and
d) two Independents who, being "independent", are likely going to have differing opinions on what is best for the country, particularly rural Australia

To get anything done, every bill will have to be reconciled somehow, with all of these factions in play. Basically, it's going to be pretty fucking hard for Gillard to get anything done. But if anyone could possibly negotiate and succeed in this, it'll be her.

Anyway, I'm fairly happy that we finally have a result, but we're in uncharted waters at this point...

What's up guys, I was elsewhere for a while

re: #45 elbruce

Lying to start a war because you believe the ends justify the means, does not constitute "the best of intentions."

You can lie with good intentions. His intention was to turn Iraq into an American democracy, which would then convert the rest of the Middle East into peace-loving allies of Israel, and if he had to drag America along against their will, so be it.

re: #46 BigPapa

So motivation doesn't matter, only results, when you have power?

I would say "actions" rather than "results." I don't know if we really have the right to morally judge the individual; but we are well within our rights to hold public servants responsible and/or accountable for the ways in which they exercise the power that we have granted them. And I don't care about any excuses they want to make regarding what they were thinking when they fucked up. The buck either stops there or it doesn't.

I don't see how it's any better to make a decision that destroys thousands and thousands of lives based on an intelligence summary that you didn't bother to check vs. knowing that it was false. He should have found out whether it was false or not. He chose not to. He told us that he knew it was true. He did not. So it's a lie either way.

re: #48 WindUpBird

What's up guys, I was elsewhere for a while

You're back!
Sup?

re: #49 Okami

You can lie with good intentions. His intention was to turn Iraq into an American democracy, which would then convert the rest of the Middle East into peace-loving allies of Israel, and if he had to drag America along against their will, so be it.

I can't with good conscience characterize starting a war as "good intentions." You can claim that Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Ivan the Terrible all had "good intentions" too, if you allow their beliefs and desired outcomes as part of the equation.

(before somebody gets outraged, I'm not comparing Bush to that list, I'm comparing the "good intentions" line of argument outlined above)

re: #51 Varek Raith

You're back!
Sup?

I'm exhausted, my bird head went from white to beige, my volvo is covered with alkaline dust and I had the best time I've ever had. :D

re: #50 elbruce

I The buck either stops there or it doesn't.

I don't see how it's any better to make a decision that destroys thousands and thousands of lives based on an intelligence summary that you didn't bother to check vs. knowing that it was false. He should have found out whether it was false or not. He chose not to. He told us that he knew it was true. He did not. So it's a lie either way.

I'm all for holding public servants accountable, however I'm not for using syllogistic arguments to pile on when it isn't necessary.

There absolutely is a difference between knowing something is false and saying it's true vs not checking out counter information even if you really should have. It doesn't turn into a lie once you reach a certain amount of deaths or not. The weight of the situation changes, but not whether it was a lie or not.

Loose interpretations cloud the discussion of issues.

re: #52 elbruce

I can't with good conscience characterize starting a war as "good intentions." You can claim that Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Ivan the Terrible all had "good intentions" too, if you allow their beliefs and desired outcomes as part of the equation.

(before somebody gets outraged, I'm not comparing Bush to that list, I'm comparing the "good intentions" line of argument outlined above)

You absolutely can characterize starting a war as 'good intentions.' This is fallacy, Hitler/Stalin or not. You can characterize as anything you want. The beliefs and intentions are part of the equation.

re: #54 BigPapa

I'm all for holding public servants accountable, however I'm not for using syllogistic arguments to pile on when it isn't necessary.

There absolutely is a difference between knowing something is false and saying it's true vs not checking out counter information even if you really should have. It doesn't turn into a lie once you reach a certain amount of deaths or not. The weight of the situation changes, but not whether it was a lie or not.

Loose interpretations cloud the discussion of issues.

Negligence can get parents thrown in jail, just saying

Claiming ignorance does not absolve someone of guilt, he sold the war base don information he claimed was iron clad, it was not at all even remotely iron-clad, it was a lie. Just because you find motivated fellow liars with big titles to lie to you on a large scale does not make your lie the truth

re: #54 BigPapa

I'm all for holding public servants accountable, however I'm not for using syllogistic arguments to pile on when it isn't necessary.

There absolutely is a difference between knowing something is false and saying it's true vs not checking out counter information even if you really should have. It doesn't turn into a lie once you reach a certain amount of deaths or not. The weight of the situation changes, but not whether it was a lie or not.

Loose interpretations cloud the discussion of issues.

The part that was a lie what him stating that he had seen the underlying evidence firsthand. He lied about whether he had checked, and completely overstated the amount of certainty. The fact remains he lied to start a war. All of this tap-dancing over whether he lied about something he knew or whether he lied about knowing it is immaterial.

re: #57 elbruce

The part that was a lie what him stating that he had seen the underlying evidence firsthand. He lied about whether he had checked, and completely overstated the amount of certainty. The fact remains he lied to start a war. All of this tap-dancing over whether he lied about something he knew or whether he lied about knowing it is immaterial.

I find it fucking unbelievable that there are still people willing to defend the lie here

re: #55 BigPapa

You absolutely can characterize starting a war as 'good intentions.' This is fallacy, Hitler/Stalin or not. You can characterize as anything you want. The beliefs and intentions are part of the equation.

Then everybody who has started a war in the history of humanity had good intentions. The phrase is now completely meaningless.

re: #54 BigPapa

I'm all for holding public servants accountable, however I'm not for using syllogistic arguments to pile on when it isn't necessary.

There absolutely is a difference between knowing something is false and saying it's true vs not checking out counter information even if you really should have.

This is really some oily slimy evasive used-car-salesman shit right here

"Well, I didn't know it was a lie because I simply managed to dodge having to speak to anyone competent with any actual information or expertise, instead I just surrounded myself with obsequious groveling yes-men with something to gain by repeating my own septic feces back to me in different words! I'm a genius! Now watch this drive!"

re: #59 elbruce

Then everybody who has started a war in the history of humanity had good intentions. The phrase is now completely meaningless.

Well, those intentions looked good to them!

re: #52 elbruce

It's meaningless if you're trying to defend something. But it is true, no one starts a war thinking, "Oh boy, I can't wait to slaughter innocent people!", they'll always have the good of someone in their mind, even if that good or that someone is fictional. But good intentions have never justified anything.

We're really gonna rehash this?
Oy.
Ah well.

#59, not #52

re: #63 Varek Raith

We're really gonna rehash this?
Oy.
Ah well.

There are people here who are still trying to claim we coulda won Vietnam! :D

re: #58 WindUpBird

I find it fucking unbelievable that there are still people willing to defend the lie here

Those are your words, not mine.

I disagreed with the loose interpretations of what is a lie and what isn't, even if it's something as noble as dishing on Bush, deserved or not.

Imagine an airline co-pilot is supposed to do the pre-flight check on the plane and doesn't because (a) the plane should probably be fine, and (b) he's completely incompetent, doesn't know how to do the check and shouldn't have even gotten the job in the first place. He tells the pilot that the plane is good to go and that he knows that for sure. Turns out, the plane isn't fine, and it crashes.

Q: did the co-pilot lie? Is he at fault for the crash?

re: #60 WindUpBird

Hey WUP, welcome back! How was the Burning Man? :D

Boy, you sure missed a lot around here...
/baiting

re: #65 WindUpBird

There are people here who are still trying to claim we coulda won Vietnam! :D

Battle of Thermopylae!
FOR SPPPAAARRRTTTAAA!

re: #62 Okami

It's meaningless if you're trying to defend something. But it is true, no one starts a war thinking, "Oh boy, I can't wait to slaughter innocent people!", they'll always have the good of someone in their mind, even if that good or that someone is fictional. But good intentions have never justified anything.

Well, sometimes people have good intentions...for people who look like them. When the police attacked the Selma marchers, they probably had good intentions in their own minds.

re: #67 elbruce

Imagine an airline co-pilot is supposed to do the pre-flight check on the plane and doesn't because (a) the plane should probably be fine, and (b) he's completely incompetent, doesn't know how to do the check and shouldn't have even gotten the job in the first place. He tells the pilot that the plane is good to go and that he knows that for sure. Turns out, the plane isn't fine, and it crashes.

Q: did the co-pilot lie? Is he at fault for the crash?

I like you more and more each day :D

Heh.

He: Did you hear about the Sumerian?
She: No, what about the Sumerian?
He: He was extremely stupid! Ha ha ha!
—Dave Barry's Greatest Hits, telling the oldest known ethnic joke

re: #68 Nimed

Hey WUP, welcome back! How was the Burning Man? :D

Boy, you sure missed a lot around here...
/baiting

It was amaaazing *_*

(And yes, I know what went down after I left, windsagio told me, I'm too tired to opine about it)

'night, all.

Bottom line about intentions with respect to Iraq is the money trail. The obscene amounts of money that went missing and to contractors, IMHO, show intent. I see no honor in the actions of the major players with regards to the media blitz successfully swaying public opinion over Iraq. I bought it. That fact makes me ill.

re: #73 WindUpBird

It was amaaazing *_*

(And yes, I know what went down after I left, windsagio told me, I'm too tired to opine about it)

Damn windsagio and his gossiping ways! Glad to know you had fun. Get some rest, dude.

re: #75 boxhead

Bottom line about intentions with respect to Iraq is the money trail. The obscene amounts of money that went missing and to contractors, IMHO, show intent. I see no honor in the actions of the major players with regards to the media blitz successfully swaying public opinion over Iraq. I bought it. That fact makes me ill.

A lot of people had a lot to gain by lying and willfully avoiding and claiming ignorance of anyone with real information, it's just natural to avoid anyone who will harsh your buzz!

re: #76 Nimed

Damn windsagio and his gossiping ways! Glad to know you had fun. Get some rest, dude.

I took a looong nap earlier, I'm sort of psychically exhausted :D

re: #78 WindUpBird

I took a looong nap earlier, I'm sort of psychically exhausted :D

Windsagio was makin' fun of ur stuff.
;)

re: #77 WindUpBird

A lot of people had a lot to gain by lying and willfully avoiding and claiming ignorance of anyone with real information, it's just natural to avoid anyone who will harsh your buzz!

exactly... the gain was both money and power for the puppet masters. Avoiding real debate has become a tactic I fear will be too successful.

harsh your buzz

lol... nice phrasing.

re: #78 WindUpBird

re: #79 Varek Raith

Windsagio was makin' fun of ur stuff.
;)

Hey Varek, quit being a snitch.

But yeah, particularly your computer. :D

re: #81 Nimed

re: #79 Varek Raith

Hey Varek, quit being a snitch.

But yeah, particularly your computer. :D

I'm telling Charles!!!
:P

re: #67 elbruce

Imagine an airline co-pilot is supposed to do the pre-flight check on the plane and doesn't because (a) the plane should probably be fine, and (b) he's completely incompetent, doesn't know how to do the check and shouldn't have even gotten the job in the first place. He tells the pilot that the plane is good to go and that he knows that for sure. Turns out, the plane isn't fine, and it crashes.

Q: did the co-pilot lie? Is he at fault for the crash?

El Bruce, how exactly do you check to make sure if Hussein had WMDs when Hussein himself did everything he could to appear he had them? Even in the last days? Have you read anything that Hussein himself talked about?

[Link: tinyurl.com...]

re: #49 Okami

You can lie with good intentions. His intention was to turn Iraq into an American democracy, which would then convert the rest of the Middle East into peace-loving allies of Israel, and if he had to drag America along against their will, so be it.

I think he lied for both political power and for money to cronies. Follow the money trail.

Was the Iraq war right/wrong? I don't know yet...it will probably take another 50 years to really know. Plus, it's always easy to monday morning quarterback - what timeline would exist if we did nothing to Hussein Iraq? (Truth is I don't know and neither does anybody here)

But this Bush lied stuff to make his friends and Halliburton rich and powerful c'mon folks - seriously?...same thing as birther crap...

re: #85 changomo

Was the Iraq war right/wrong? I don't know yet...it will probably take another 50 years to really know. Plus, it's always easy to monday morning quarterback - what timeline would exist if we did nothing to Hussein Iraq? (Truth is I don't know and neither does anybody here)

But this Bush lied stuff to make his friends and Halliburton rich and powerful c'mon folks - seriously?...same thing as birther crap...

Follow the money... How many billions in cash went missing? How much did we pay contractors? If those are just coincidences, then wow... Lucky them.

re: #84 boxhead

I think he lied for both political power and for money to cronies. Follow the money trail.

Yes, Boxhead - Bush knew that Iraq had no WMDs (even though Hussein to the last day did everything he can to appear to have them by his own admission [Link: tinyurl.com...] ) But was really in cahoots with Hussein.

Bush also knew that he would be able to overcome this lie in 2004 and get re-elected because those elections are rigged right? By the same cronies that Bush empowered to rig the machines and ballots.

The Iraq war was about helping Halliburton, steal all of Iraq's oil, and to make Bush's friends rich.

And Osama is a communist, that was born in Kenya and is Muslim.

folks - please do not run from what extreme to another - you end up looking foolish - and if this site has one thing that it seems to trumpet - it would be for rational logical thought.

Yup - boxhead - Bush's goal as president was #1 to make his friends rich.

That sad thing I know you and many people believe that, the same way many people believe Obama is a Kenyan Muslim, and nothing I can say will probably change your mind or theirs...

re: #86 boxhead

Follow the money... How many billions in cash went missing? How much did we pay contractors? If those are just coincidences, then wow... Lucky them.

I don't think the disappearance of billions of dollars was ordered by Bush himself. I looked more to me like there were people up and down the line willing to make illicit profit, knowing that Bush would naively chalk it up to the cost of waging a war to save the world from terrorism.

re: #87 changomo

It just seems that the rich and powerful have little respect for us. Large corps are not USA citizens and care little for us. Media distracts us from real issues. War has always been a money making opportunity. I guess I am far too cynical to believe in good intentions when the people with them do not have to sacrifice anything.

re: #88 changomo

Yup - boxhead - Bush's goal as president was #1 to make his friends rich.

That sad thing I know you and many people believe that, the same way many people believe Obama is a Kenyan Muslim, and nothing I can say will probably change your mind or theirs...

There may be a bit more evidence of the money trail than Obama's Kenyan birth. War has always been a opportunity to make money.

BTW, I don't see neither Dems nor GOP leadership truly representing We The People. Getting elected costs too much money.

re: #92 boxhead

BTW, I don't see neither Dems nor GOP leadership truly representing We The People. Getting elected costs too much money.

I can get behind that completely. The rich will continue to be over-represented as long as it costs millions of dollars to get elected.

re: #93 Okami

I can get behind that completely. The rich will continue to be over-represented as long as it costs millions of dollars to get elected.

I was very disappointed when Calif voters rejected Public funding of campaigns. Look at the two main races in Calif now. Both GOP candidates are stupid rich. The lopsided spending is cartoonish. Is that how our elections should be conducted? I vote no... (but I only have a quarter so I don't count:)

Killed another thread... I really hope it is cause it is late and not me.. :p

Nobody commented on my Australian election writeup.

D:

I read it, for what that's worth.

re: #97 Okami

Thank you. :)

Interesting article from Richard Dawkins:

A recurring conundrum in philosophy is the impossibility of sharing, or describing to a blind person, the subjective sensation of colour. Is my sensation of red the same as yours? Or do you see an entirely different hue that I cannot even dream of?

It seems impossible for me to imagine a colour that I have never seen. I don’t mean some subtle shade in a paint catalogue, intermediate between colours that I know well. I mean a completely new colour, as different from the familiar as red is from blue. Proverbially we call it sky-blue-pink, but of course it would resemble no name-able colour.

Continued:

Sky-blue-pink. A colour never before seen?

re: #22 brookly red

it gets boring after a while, I log on, harsh someones mellow with the truth, get called names & downdinged. Its all so repetitive.

re: #23 brookly red

in fact I can even predict like clock work who can't handle the truth... it's sad sometimes.

And what is so funny/sad is that when called out on it, even though they are not part of the conversation, not logged in, not around, they go back and ding you just the same. Just can't resist the button.

re: #99 Jimmah

Interesting, but without a definition of what these labels are in the first place, it gets mucky quickly. I'd argue that you could just as well start from the position that the labels coincide with the actual experience; the neurological examples he gives are, I think, tellingly related to memories. Maybe 'red', the label, only exists after there is some experience of sensation to put it on.

When I was a boxer, I got hit in the head sometimes. It wasn't fun, and one of the least fun parts about it was feeling odd sensations-- which I believe were caused by the concussing of the brain inside the skull. The 'seeing stars' part is not caused by the eyeball flexing, but by actual stuff going on inside the brain. Some of those feelings you have when you're punched in the head, in my experience, have no other source of stimuli that can provoke them.

You could call some of them 'colors', since some of them certainly seemed to be in that area of the brain. Say one of those is greasy-gray-brown, to try to synesthesize the memory of one. I feel that by calling it that 'color' I'm labeling it not using a pre-existing label, but by engaging in some other process; not picking up a label and sticking it on, but manufacturing a label based on the 'qualities' of that sensation.

I'd like Dawkins to write more on this; I don't know if his argument is that the brain comes pre-equipped with labels for colors that match up to our existing sensory range, in the same way that our brains come pre-equipped with a map of our bodies (that may not actually match with our real bodies, as it doesn't for mine-- I'm incredibly flexible and double-jointed, but my brain still warns me 'stop, you'll hurt yourself' at the points where a normal person would begin to feel strain.

If that is his argument, then I don't think a color-blind person experiencing 'red' for the first time would really experience something that's all that groundbreaking; there have been people who have been cured of some forms of blindness who have experienced the entire color range for the first time.

And if his argument is about a neurological phenomenon unrelated to actual experience, then I think boxers have been seeing colors no one else has experienced for a long time-- as has anyone who's hit their head hard.

re: #100 Stonemason

I wish I had a nickel for every time someone whined about dings.

re: #26 TheQuis

Alright, I have something stuck in my craw from the last thread (and a lot of these sort of threads actually).

-1 for the long-term memory loss.

Morning all!

re: #45 elbruce

Lying to start a war because you believe the ends justify the means, does not constitute "the best of intentions."

A whole range of -1 for reconstituted talking points that were shot down 6 years ago...it's now time to MoveOn.

re: #65 WindUpBird

There are people here who are still trying to claim we coulda won Vietnam! :D

-1 for getting your history knowledge from old movies. Read a book.

Instead of rehashing the Iraq war or the election in 2000 (you lost, let go of the grudge people) lets talk about todays NBC/WSJ Poll.

A combination of sky-high GOP enthusiasm, a deep sense of pessimism about the country’s direction and dissatisfaction with President Barack Obama's stewardship of the economy has given Republicans a clear advantage heading into the November midterm elections, according to the latest NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll.
...
With the Labor Day holiday marking the traditional starting point of the campaign season, Republicans have a nine-point edge among those considered likely voters, plus a near 20-point lead among those expressing the highest amount of interest in the midterms.

In addition, six in 10 believe the country is on the wrong track; nearly two-thirds think the nation is in a state of decline; and a similar number aren't confident that their children’s generation will enjoy a better life.

Perhaps more ominous for Democrats, the number of Americans who approve of Obama's handling of the economy — the top issue in the country — has declined below 40 percent for the first time.

It's a shame no one could have seen this coming. In between rounds of golf, a year off for HCR, worrying about the mosque in NYC, paying off union pension plans with our money, and a world-wide apology tour they've worked as hard as they could to get the economy going again. Why can't people see that?

Morning all.

My problems here are still here. They generally work themselves out after a few minutes.

re: #106 RogueOne

[Link: www.politico.com...]

video snippet of this weekends polls. Starts off with a disclaimer for dems which I find funny.

re: #108 Cannadian Club Akbar

My problems here are still here. They generally work themselves out after a few minutes.

What about your work situation? I never did read an update.

re: #110 RogueOne

What about your work situation? I never did read an update.

Looking at options. Just not happy. Not getting any hours.

re: #111 Cannadian Club Akbar

Looking at options. Just not happy. Not getting any hours.

but did the check finally clear?

Carlee, if you didn't like the snark in my 106 just wait until Nov. 3 when I get to lay it on extra thick.

re: #112 RogueOne

but did the check finally clear?

Banks were closed all weekend and my ID expired on my birthday last week. That was my bad. My brothers GF works at the bank though. My boss apologized. He messed up on transferring funds.

re: #113 RogueOne

Carlee, if you didn't like the snark in my 106 just wait until Nov. 3 when I get to lay it on extra thick.

I evened it out.

re: #102 Obdicut

I wish I had a nickel for every time someone whined about dings.

You'd be a multinational by now.

Your offices in Seattle would be vandalized, like Starbucks.

You'd be a target for the anti globalization folks.

/

You laughed.

re: #106 RogueOne

downding for the "world wide apology tour" - if we have to MoveOn from MoveOn - you have to stop with the Malkinisation.

re: #117 wozzablog

downding for the "world wide apology tour" - if we have to MoveOn from MoveOn - you have to stop with the Malkinisation.

C'mon, that was funny. If I had an edit function I could change it to a "world-wide bowing tour".

test

re: #119 Cannadian Club Akbar

test

coming through loud and clear...

re: #120 wozzablog

coming through loud and clear...

The last day and a half I have had problems. Not sure why.

laters.

million phone calls to make.

re: #116 researchok

I did.

I always find anti-globalization people interesting. It's where the black helicopter crowd meets the capitalism is evil crowd.

Unfettered, deregulated capitalism can indeed be terrible for developing countries. But so can their previous lifestyles.

It's kind of like the people who say "Free Tibet!"

Before China invaded, Tibet was a semi-theocratic, incredibly backwards country where people did not have the right to self-determination at all. Under the 13th Dali Llama they engaged in a lot of border skirmishes with China.

China's invasion is obviously wrong, but Tibet wasn't some shining example of wonderfulness before the Chinese got there. It was a fucked up, backwards, religiously-bound society with a caste system, indentured servitude, and no religious freedom.

I used to go to "Free Tibet" protests with a sign that said "Free China".

re: #123 Obdicut

I did.

I always find anti-globalization people interesting. It's where the black helicopter crowd meets the capitalism is evil crowd.

Unfettered, deregulated capitalism can indeed be terrible for developing countries. But so can their previous lifestyles.

It's kind of like the people who say "Free Tibet!"

Before China invaded, Tibet was a semi-theocratic, incredibly backwards country where people did not have the right to self-determination at all. Under the 13th Dali Llama they engaged in a lot of border skirmishes with China.

China's invasion is obviously wrong, but Tibet wasn't some shining example of wonderfulness before the Chinese got there. It was a fucked up, backwards, religiously-bound society with a caste system, indentured servitude, and no religious freedom.

I used to go to "Free Tibet" protests with a sign that said "Free China".

You hit the nail on the head.

I will answer this later- I'm headed off shortly to have a blind, all thumbs Nazi dentist work on me.

test. again.

re: #124 researchok

You hit the nail on the head.

I will answer this later- I'm headed off shortly to have a blind, all thumbs Nazi dentist work on me.

Well, at least he's not British!

James Herriot-- the all things bright and beautiful guy -- got a tooth removed when he joined the RAF. The guy didn't use anesthetic and after he snapped the tooth off used a goddamn chisel to get it out of his head!

When he left, barely able to talk, Herriot told him hat he, too, practiced dentistry that way. The man asked where his dental practice was.

Herriot replied that he was a vet.

(I think the Brits have probably improved a little since then.)

JC. A place is advertising dishes for $20 a plate. Fuck.

Douche.

STEVE!!

re: #127 Cannadian Club Akbar

re: #128 Cannadian Club Akbar

re: #129 Cannadian Club Akbar

You killed it.

re: #130 thedopefishlives

re: #128 Cannadian Club Akbar

re: #129 Cannadian Club Akbar

You killed it.

I thought it was a bug.
//

Think I broke it again.

re: #123 Obdicut

John Safran once devoted a segment of his "John Safran vs God" to the Dalai Lama's less than progressive opinions on many issues.

re: #132 Cannadian Club Akbar

Think I broke it again.

Charles, I'd like to report a serial thread killer.

re: #134 thedopefishlives

Charles, I'd like to report a serial thread killer.

I like cereal. Wait, what?
/

re: #135 Cannadian Club Akbar

I like cereal. Wait, what?
/

I had cereal for breakfast, does that count?

We are about to go into the busy season where everyone has to play nice and love their family. I just hate everyone. Am I going to hell?

re: #137 Cannadian Club Akbar

Hell doesn't exist. There is only customer support.

/on both sides.

re: #137 Cannadian Club Akbar

We are about to go into the busy season where everyone has to play nice and love their family. I just hate everyone. Am I going to hell?

No, but you might get visited by a handful of spirits telling you in not-so-subtle allegories that you must change your ways or wind up in a box./

re: #138 Obdicut

Hell doesn't exist. There is only customer support.

/on both sides.

I know. I talked to Dell support. The guys name was Gary.

re: #137 Cannadian Club Akbar

We are about to go into the busy season where everyone has to play nice and love their family. I just hate everyone. Am I going to hell?

Absolutely, but not for that reason. I don't like people and I especially don't like people who play nice one month out of the year. If you're an asshole just stick with it, don't pretend you're nice for a holiday season. It's not going to help, Santa already knows you're an asshole anyway.

re: #141 RogueOne

Absolutely, but not for that reason. I don't like people and I especially don't like people who play nice one month out of the year. If you're an asshole just stick with it, don't pretend you're nice for a holiday season. It's not going to help, Santa already knows you're an asshole anyway.

FWIW, I am generally an asshole all the time.

re: #138 Obdicut

Hell doesn't exist. There is only customer support.

/on both sides.

"Dear God?"

"Yes, my child?"

"I would like to file a bug report."

re: #143 thedopefishlives

"Dear God?"

"Yes, my child?"

"I would like to file a bug report."

I just spit my drink all over my laptop. Not that I'm drinking, mind you.

Television review: 'My Trip to Al-Qaeda'

[Link: www.latimes.com...]

tonight on HBO.

re: #144 Cannadian Club Akbar

I just spit my drink all over my laptop. Not that I'm drinking, mind you.

For the full context:

[Link: xkcd.com...]

re: #145 RogueOne

Television review: 'My Trip to Al-Qaeda'

[Link: www.latimes.com...]

tonight on HBO.

I understand Al Queda. Because I hate that one guy with a limp.
/

re: #147 Cannadian Club Akbar

I understand Al Queda. Because I hate that one guy with a limp.
/

And I bet I am the only person here who has seen the film "Kandahar".

re: #148 Cannadian Club Akbar

And I bet I am the only person here who has seen the film "Kandahar".

Sounds like a resounding yes.

NFL starts Thursday with what should be a good game. I'm looking forward to this season, there are going to be quite a few good teams in the AFC, should make for great tv viewing.

BTW, Why don't we have a fantasy league?

re: #151 RogueOne

BTW, Why don't we have a fantasy league?

Cliff set one up.

I am taking a nap.

re: #152 Cannadian Club Akbar

Cliff set one up.

Had to search through the pages to find it:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Anyone else signed up? If not, sign the hell up people!

Victoria Jackson writes a column about the Glenn Beck rally for Wierdnut Drooly and I don't know what else to say about it except to note that it's entitled, "I forgot my shorts," which I couldn't have made up if I tried. And she's bizarrely obsessed with doing handstands.

I walk up the steps and stare at the giant sculpture of Lincoln. I then realize I FORGOT MY SHORTS. This is the perfect occasion and place for a handstand photo for my collection, and I'm wearing a dress. I could kick up to a handstand and let my underwear show, but that would reflect badly on my tea party. I don't want people to think we're crazy. I slump. I ask the blond stranger next to me if he'll take my photo. His name is Lloyd and he drove here from Minnesota in 20 hours. That is devotion. We share our mutual concern for our country and take each other's pictures next to Lincoln, right side up, of course. I tell him that I'm gonna find some shorts and take a handstand photo tomorrow. He agrees to meet me after the event and take it for me.

[...]

I notice there are mostly white people here. I wonder why there aren't more Cubans, and Venezuelans, Koreans, Vietnamese, Russians, Egyptians, Africans, Pakistanis, Chinese and Colombians. Didn't they come here to escape dictatorships and corrupt governments? Why aren't they worried about this "fundamental transformation" that is making our country look like the one they left? Maybe they don't speak English so they don't watch Glenn Beck. Why aren't some Muslims here? They are "Americans," right? Aren't they concerned about the state of our nation? The crashing economy? The socialist/communist agenda?

[...]

I am determined to get my Lincoln Memorial handstand photo for my collection, so I shuffle through the sweaty crowd up the stairs. My foot blisters are bright red and I wince with each step. I look for my new friend Minnesota Lloyd but can't find him. So, I take out my navy pashmina and wrap it around my thighs again, tying knots here and there. I ask a stranger/friend to take my photo. When I am upside-down I can hear the uniformed cop saying, "That's enough. That's enough!" like we are doing something wrong. I think Abraham Lincoln would like me and my handstand.

re: #83 changomo

El Bruce, how exactly do you check to make sure if Hussein had WMDs when Hussein himself did everything he could to appear he had them? Even in the last days? Have you read anything that Hussein himself talked about?

[Link: tinyurl.com...]

Apparently nobody was paying attention to the actual people we had been sending over there to look.

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

And Saddam wasn't "doing everything he could do" to create that appearance. Half the time he said one thing, half the time he said another. In any case, trusting Saddam's word on anything at all is really stupid.

The point is that Bush didn't say he wasn't sure. He said he knew for sure. He did not.

re: #104 RogueOne

A whole range of -1 for reconstituted talking points that were shot down 6 years ago...it's now time to MoveOn.

A whole range of -1 for talking about your dings instead of making any point whatsoever. I was just addressing an assertion that somebody else made about how Bush wasn't to blame for the thing he does. These points have been far from "shot down" by anyone.

re: #113 RogueOne

Carlee, if you didn't like the snark in my 106 just wait until Nov. 3 when I get to lay it on extra thick.

I'd love to wait until then. But I find that right wingers have a disturbing tendency to dance in the end zone before kickoff, as you did in #106. I heard from a lot of wingnuts hooting about their inevitable landslide in 2008 as well. And in 2006. Usually the tactic is to talk big in September and then make yourself completely unavailable to the Internet for further discussion in November. I see no change in that pattern here.

re: #158 elbruce

I'd love to wait until then. But I find that right wingers have a disturbing tendency to dance in the end zone before kickoff, as you did in #106. I heard from a lot of wingnuts hooting about their inevitable landslide in 2008 as well. And in 2006. Usually the tactic is to talk big in September and then make yourself completely unavailable to the Internet for further discussion in November. I see no change in that pattern here.

Well, except November isn't here yet, is it.

Me, what I'm wondering is why it's OK to talk about what happened ago when it's all about the evil GW Bush, but not OK (magical balance fairy!) to talk about what happened ago when it's about left-craziness during the Bush years.

re: #159 reine.de.tout

Well, except November isn't here yet, is it.

Exactly my point. RogueOne is already celebrating the Republican landslide, it seems.

re: #159 reine.de.tout

Me, what I'm wondering is why it's OK to talk about what happened ago when it's all about the evil GW Bush, but not OK (magical balance fairy!) to talk about what happened ago when it's about left-craziness during the Bush years.

Only because that's not remotely relevant to anything that's been discussed upthread so far. Nobody here has said it's not OK to talk about it. You'd just be introducing a brand new topic, is all.

Technically comparing Bush to critics of Bush is apples-and-oranges. Comparing Bush to Obama, or comparing Bush's critics to Obama's critics would be more rational. But I'm a bit unclear about what your point is there.

re: #160 elbruce

Exactly my point. RogueOne is already celebrating the Republican landslide, it seems.

re: #159 reine.de.tout

Only because that's not remotely relevant to anything that's been discussed upthread so far. Nobody here has said it's not OK to talk about it. You'd just be introducing a brand new topic, is all.

Technically comparing Bush to critics of Bush is apples-and-oranges. Comparing Bush to Obama, or comparing Bush's critics to Obama's critics would be more rational. But I'm a bit unclear about what your point is there.

My point is this (and I have not looked upthread, I will just admit that right here).

Whenever someone brings up crazy-left during the Bush years, he/she is shot down right away. I'm not saying I agree with making the comparisons, I don't, and I try not to do it. What happened THEN has no bearing on what's happening today; and a difference is that the crazy-right seems to have more influence on the R politicians and leaders than the crazy-left ever had.

So - I don't agree with making the comparisons. But to say the magical balance fairy is being invoked when someone brings up crazy-left, then to seem to be just fine (no magical balance fairy here!) to bring up old stuff that someone thinks was crazy-right, just seems to me to be an unbalanced playing field. I don't get it.

re: #155 negativ

Victoria Jackson writes a column about the Glenn Beck rally for Wierdnut Drooly and I don't know what else to say about it except to note that it's entitled, "I forgot my shorts," which I couldn't have made up if I tried. And she's bizarrely obsessed with doing handstands.

Is she the Attention Whore?

re: #159 reine.de.tout

I don't find discussions of Bush's culpability or non-culpability with regards to the huge intelligence failure before Iraq to be productive. I don't think anyone's opinions will be changed at all.

I wasn't aware it wasn't okay to talk about the left going crazy during the Bush years. It seems like it gets talked about a lot. What is objected to is saying that the left went crazy in the same way, or to the same extent, that the 'right' (which is totally wrong, since a lot of erst-while lefties have proved they can't handle a black president either) are going nuts under Obama.

Bush got the nation's support after 9/11. Left and right. Obama has not only never gotten that, despite major catastrophes that should have brought us together as a nation, but has been attacked in an unprecedented fashion.

I think, really, it's a combination of things:

1. Rove's permanent majority thing meant that a lot of less-politically sophisticated people believed that it was possible and true. So when the Democrats swung back into power, there was a lot of conviction that the only way it could possibly happen was some sort of deceit or fraud.

2. Racists, whatever their previous political orientation, are lining up to take shots at Obama.

3. Those who have been deceived into believing he is far more radical than he is, and that positions that are perfectly moderate are radical, are very angry at Obama. Those that are pushing such lies are, I feel, far more to blame than the people angry at them. I do think such people should calm the hell down, fact-check, and realize they're being duped, but I have more intolerance for the dupers.

4. The religious right are seeing the new generation coming, and it makes them afraid. Even young evangelicals don't care about issues like gay marriage, and have the humility and grace to look for the beam in their own eye-- i.e. the very high rate of divorce in evangelical communities. So the religious right is flailing, attempting a culture war with Islam, and becoming more and more extremist.

There were plenty of people on the fringe under Bush who said horrible, contemptible things, who alleged his involvement in 9/11, who were certain he would suspend elections, who thought he hated black people. From the measurement of "did anyone hold an view this extreme of Bush?" the answer is "yes".

However, to the question, "Were these extreme views of Bush as common, as supported by the mainstream politicians, the mainstream media?" the answer is resoundingly "No".

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area... had a nice relaxing weekend away from the computer, blogging, and got to focus on friends and wine and good company... something that I should be doing way more often.

A long weekend in the Finger Lakes will do that. Looking forward to a short week too.

Meanwhile, it looks like someone is finally standing up to Bush. Reggie Bush that is.

test.

re: #165 Cannadian Club Akbar

test.

Failed.

re: #166 thedopefishlives

Failed.

Again.

re: #165 Cannadian Club Akbar

test.

icle

Finally got in touch with management about the water. Now I've got to sit here and wait for them to actually fix it.

re: #168 darthstar

icle

Oh, shut up.
/

re: #161 reine.de.tout

What happened THEN has no bearing on what's happening today; and a difference is that the crazy-right seems to have more influence on the R politicians and leaders than the crazy-left ever had.

I find this to be an effective and comprehensive summary of the subject.

re: #161 reine.de.tout

So - I don't agree with making the comparisons. But to say the magical balance fairy is being invoked when someone brings up crazy-left, then to seem to be just fine (no magical balance fairy here!) to bring up old stuff that someone thinks was crazy-right, just seems to me to be an unbalanced playing field. I don't get it.

Did I miss such a discussion somewhere above in this thread? I really don't know who you're arguing against. It sounds just like you came in immediately complaining about an argument that nobody here was making...?

re: #169 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Finally got in touch with management about the water. Now I've got to sit here and wait for them to actually fix it.

Hold the rent check.

re: #169 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Depending on your state, you may be able to withhold rent until the problem is fixed.

California, you could.

re: #173 Obdicut

Depending on your state, you may be able to withhold rent until the problem is fixed.

California, you could.

Except I paid rent on the first and the problem didn't occur till the 5th.

re: #171 elbruce

I find this to be an effective and comprehensive summary of the subject.

re: #161 reine.de.tout

Did I miss such a discussion somewhere above in this thread? I really don't know who you're arguing against. It sounds just like you came in immediately complaining about an argument that nobody here was making...?

Hm.
Perhaps making an observation is different from complaining.
Well, it is in my mind, anyhow.
Maybe it depends on who is making the observation?

Anyhoo - again, not arguing against you, or anyone, I admitted I did not read upthread. It was simply an observation, not worth an extended conversation IMO (or insults about complaining, I mean, really).

I hate my job and have to work today. Anyone? Bueller?

re: #176 Cannadian Club Akbar

I hate my job and have to work today. Anyone? Bueller?

Be sure to wear white...

re: #176 Cannadian Club Akbar

I hate my job and have to work today. Anyone? Bueller?

If you think your job sucks, just think how much more it would suck if you didn't have a job.

re: #176 Cannadian Club Akbar

I hate my job and have to work today. Anyone? Bueller?

I really hate people.

re: #176 Cannadian Club Akbar

I hate my job and have to work today. Anyone? Bueller?

I'm sure someone else would be interested in it if you hate it that much.

re: #174 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Except I paid rent on the first and the problem didn't occur till the 5th.

You can take it off next month's rent-- in some cases. I'm really only advising withholding rent if it's not fixed by next month-- which I know is unlikely, but is possible.

And it depends on what state you're in.

My friends had to withhold rent because of an enormous fungal problem. Then they had to withhold rent because in getting rid of the fungus, the landlord had removed all the insulation and the place was freezing. That's called 'constructive eviction'-- when the landlord keeps the place in a condition that makes it impossible to use.

re: #155 negativ

Victoria Jackson writes a column about the Glenn Beck rally for Wierdnut Drooly and I don't know what else to say about it except to note that it's entitled, "I forgot my shorts," which I couldn't have made up if I tried. And she's bizarrely obsessed with doing handstands.

Most of it seems like a normal "day in the life of" blog. The parts that seem weird to me are every time she encounters another person...

A Radio Shack employee, a polite man from Africa named Ulo, helps me buy a cell phone charger...

A black man is holding a sign...

My taxi driver is Muslim. He's from Ethiopia and is here on a college scholarship. I wish I could have gotten a college scholarship. I had straight A's. I wonder who is giving him the scholarship.

A black man is holding a sign...

A white man from Orange County, Calif...

My next cab driver is Muslim. He's from Pakistan. I ask him about the killing thing. "Muslims don't kill. We don't even kill a roach. You kill roaches, right?" I say, "Yes, but … don't you guys kill your daughters and wives? Y'know, 'honor killings'?" His voice rises, "No, no, no, that is the media. They tell lies."

I notice there are mostly white people here... Why aren't some Muslims here?

I wave frantically until a taxi stops. The driver is Muslim. I ask him if the Muslims are trying to take over the world.

Exhausted, waiting for the hotel elevator, I push the button and ask the white couple near me...

Jeez, I could see if you were talking about the universal, multiethnic nature of the event, but if you're not, why do you have to note the race and religion of every person you meet?

And is it simply not possible for a wingnut to have a conversation with a Muslim without bringing up a bunch of crap? It's not like I go up to the person serving me coffee and go "Hey, you're Christian right? What's up with all of these abortion clinic bombings?"

re: #180 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm sure someone else would be interested in it if you hate it that much.

No, it's a $50 an hour job picking lettuce, and you know how Americans won't take those kinds of jobs.

You can't do it, my friends.

Who is Victoria Jackson, and why should I care about her?
Really - I have no clue who she is.

re: #180 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm sure someone else would be interested in it if you hate it that much.

That's fine. I can be homeless. I can get free Wifi at the library. I am over this.

re: #174 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Except I paid rent on the first and the problem didn't occur till the 5th.

I was living in an apartment in Dallas, and they had NO MANAGEMENT on site on the weekends, and any repair or services were on a as needed emergency basis only.

So, my apartment was over the main waste removal pipe for my whole building (12 units) and it got backed up, on a Sat. so, I was getting EVERYONES toilet waste in my apartment, every time someone flushed. I called management, they told me that would be premium plumber fees and I had to wait until Monday.

I found out who can shut off the whole water main to the complex... the fire department... boy oh boy, did that cause a lot of confusion, two fire trucks, a small army of firemen, 10 buildings, the whole complex, without water, management got a whole lot of phone calls then...

By Monday, the waste plumbing was fixed, they cleaned my apartment and my apartment had brand new carpet. Cost them a hell of a lot more than it would have if they had simply spent a few hundreds dollars from the git-go.

re: #184 reine.de.tout

Who is Victoria Jackson, and why should I care about her?
Really - I have no clue who she is.

She is a crazy ex-SNL comedienne. She played a crazy airhead during her years on SNL.

Turns out it wasn't an act.

re: #187 Obdicut

She is a crazy ex-SNL comedienne. She played a crazy airhead during her years on SNL.

Turns out it wasn't an act.

Liar! The "act" was that she managed to downplay how apocalyptically nuts she really is.

(I'm just here to clarify...)

re: #188 Slap

Liar! The "act" was that she managed to downplay how apocalyptically nuts she really is.

(I'm just here to clarify...)

Her "I am not a Bimbo" song was funny. Other than that, she's kinda forgettable to me.

Why does the talk about Bush "lies" about Iraq and WMD's never encompass the many Democratic Party members and Clinton Administration officials referring to Saddam's attempts to have WMD's - even at times saying that he had them in his possession?

The convenient revision of history is not based in facts.

re: #190 Ericus58

Why bother with facts?

re: #186 Walter L. Newton

That's getting filed away in the "just in case" drawer... Surprised the water utility wouldn't be able to, or were they/you not authorized?

re: #191 Cannadian Club Akbar

Why bother with facts?

Oh and BTW, I voted for Clinton, so every one can bite me.

Glenn Beck's anti-gay army of God

As he attempts to rebrand himself as a spiritual leader, Glenn Beck has surrounded himself with religious and secular figures who share a fervent opposition to the "homosexual agenda."

Peretz: Muslims Are Indifferent to Human Life and Therefore Unworthy of First Amendment Protection

New Republic Editor in Chief Martin Peretz:

But, frankly, Muslim life is cheap, most notably to Muslims. And among those Muslims led by the Imam Rauf there is hardly one who has raised a fuss about the routine and random bloodshed that defines their brotherhood. So, yes, I wonder whether I need honor these people and pretend that they are worthy of the privileges of the First Amendment which I have in my gut the sense that they will abuse.

re: #190 Ericus58

Why does the talk about Bush "lies" about Iraq and WMD's never encompass the many Democratic Party members and Clinton Administration officials referring to Saddam's attempts to have WMD's - even at times saying that he had them in his possession?

Because they were just repeating what Bush told them.

re: #190 Ericus58

The convenient revision of history is not based in facts.

Agreed.

re: #196 elbruce

Because they were just repeating what Bush told them.

Really? They were repeating what they already said. Save it.

re: #192 mcspiff

That's getting filed away in the "just in case" drawer... Surprised the water utility wouldn't be able to, or were they/you not authorized?

Ok... this was a long time ago, late 70's, but if I remember correctly, I could have called the Water Department, but I was trying to make a scene, and I found out that Fire Department had the authorization to do it, and I felt that fire trucks were more impressive. I was trying to make a point and get other residents to complain, and I didn't feel that a panel truck pulling up would attract as much attention.

I was much younger... does that excuse work? :)

re: #195 Killgore Trout

*face palm*

The 1st Amendment protections exist for free exercise of religion - not just the ones you favor; same goes for speech.

re: #198 Cannadian Club Akbar

Really? They were repeating what they already said. Save it.

They didn't have access to the intelligence he had. He told them, our allies, and us that the intelligence proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Saddam had active WMD programs. If you're going to blame them for believing him back then, then you might as blame yourself and everybody else who assumed that he wasn't lying about the intelligence.

re: #193 Cannadian Club Akbar

Here's a Clinton statement from 2003:

“People can quarrel with whether we should have more troops in Afghanistan or internationalize Iraq or whatever, but it is incontestable that on the day I left office, there were unaccounted for stocks of biological and chemical weapons.And then we bombed with the British for four days in 1998. We might have gotten it all; we might have gotten half of it; we might have gotten none of it. But we didn’t know. So I thought it was prudent for [President Bush] to go to the U.N. and for the U.N. to say you got to let these inspectors in, and this time if you don’t cooperate the penalty could be regime change, not just continued sanctions.”

re: #195 Killgore Trout

Peretz: Muslims Are Indifferent to Human Life and Therefore Unworthy of First Amendment Protection

New Republic Editor in Chief Martin Peretz:

What a cocksucker

re: #201 elbruce

They didn't have access to the intelligence he had. He told them, our allies, and us that the intelligence proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Saddam had active WMD programs. If you're going to blame them for believing him back then, then you might as blame yourself and everybody else who assumed that he wasn't lying about the intelligence.

re: #200 lawhawk

*face palm*

The 1st Amendment protections exist for free exercise of religion - not just the ones you favor; same goes for speech.

More American wingnuts are embracing Geert's idea that Islam doesn't qualify.

Claim: Quotes reproduce statements made by Democratic leaders about Saddam Hussein's acquisition or possession of weapons of mass destruction.

Status: True.

Ya know what? You fucking people can try to feed me bullshit every day. Guess what? I ain't eating.

re: #201 elbruce

They didn't have access to the intelligence he had. He told them, our allies, and us that the intelligence proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Saddam had active WMD programs. If you're going to blame them for believing him back then, then you might as blame yourself and everybody else...

... who assumed that he wasn't lying about the intelligence.

Huh... they had the SAME intelligence that he had, the same reports, the same material that almost EVERYY LEADER IN THE WESTERN WORLD HAD at the time... a good part of it wasn't even American intelligence.

The bolder part of your statement above implies that Bush sat down, composed this intelligence himself, and then handed it out to the free world.

re: #199 Walter L. Newton

Ok... this was a long time ago, late 70's, but if I remember correctly, I could have called the Water Department, but I was trying to make a scene, and I found out that Fire Department had the authorization to do it, and I felt that fire trucks were more impressive. I was trying to make a point and get other residents to complain, and I didn't feel that a panel truck pulling up would attract as much attention.

I was much younger... does that excuse work? :)

Heh no excuse needed, bigger the scene the better. I know my dad had the job of being the guy who turns off water for the city for a bit, I'm going to ask him if he ever had anyone think of something like this (99% of the time it was for non payment)...

re: #208 Walter L. Newton

Huh... they had the SAME intelligence that he had, the same reports, the same material that almost EVERYY LEADER IN THE WESTERN WORLD HAD at the time... a good part of it wasn't even American intelligence.

The bolder part of your statement above implies that Bush sat down, composed this intelligence himself, and then handed it out to the free world.

The quality of the intelligence wasn't even a huge part of the debate in Canada. It was assumed to be at least somewhat exaggerated, but with a certain degree of truth at the core. No one though Sadam had working nukes but even myself (strongly anti-war) was surprised by how little there was in reality.

re: #207 Cannadian Club Akbar

Ya know what? You fucking people can try to feed me bullshit every day. Guess what? I ain't eating.

Agreed. Testify!

I need to do other stuff. Then work. See ya'll tonight.

re: #208 Walter L. Newton

Huh... they had the SAME intelligence that he had, the same reports, the same material that almost EVERYY LEADER IN THE WESTERN WORLD HAD at the time... a good part of it wasn't even American intelligence.

Not counting the "slam dunk" stuff that Bush was citing, there wan't anything conclusive. Britain knew this

re: #208 Walter L. Newton

The bolder part of your statement above implies that Bush sat down, composed this intelligence himself, and then handed it out to the free world.

The process by which the CIA was compelled to tell the White House what they wanted to hear seems pretty circumlocuted. If the intelligence said it was conclusive but was really flat-out wrong, then why haven't conservatives called for the head of whoever it was in the CIA led Bush to the biggest blunder of any modern President? Why did this happen instead, after it was being coming clear that the conclusions of the intelligence reports were false:

Image: mn_bush_medal_of_freedom.jpg

re: #213 elbruce

The lefty interpretation of the Downing Street Memo is bogus and stupid. It's a fantasy from lefties were dumber than wingnuts. It's nonsense.

re: #213 elbruce

So, President Bush went back in history and convinced (lied to) President Clinton...
What a trick.
And I could do this all morning, but you will still say that Mr. Bush lied. Can you then at least say the everyone else lied too? Please? Just so you have a small shred of credibility.

re: #196 elbruce

Because they were just repeating what Bush told them.

Really?
I didn't know that Bush was telling them what to say and think in '98...

re: #201 elbruce

They didn't have access to the intelligence he had. He told them, our allies, and us that the intelligence proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Saddam had active WMD programs. If you're going to blame them for believing him back then, then you might as blame yourself and everybody else who assumed that he wasn't lying about the intelligence.

Now you are just playing dumb...

Boy, rehashing the Iraq war sure is great.

//

Seriously, there is no point in doing so. Bush is not in power. The vast majority of those involved in the invasion are not in power. It is of historical interest. Nothing more. Especially since Bush is basically persona non grata in the GOP these days.

Hate Pastor Terry Jones on burning Quran

Jones said that he is “weighing the situation,” but emphasized that he’s not backing down from the event. During the interview, he repeatedly conceded that he “would indeed offend” Muslims. But, he claimed, “peaceful Muslims” should be supporting his hate campaign. “Moderate Muslims should be on our side,” Jones argued.

Chetry, unable to restrain herself any longer, indignantly responded: “No moderate Muslim’s going to be on your side when you’re burning their holy book! I mean, that just sounds silly.” Watch it:

And one last thing, please explain how it is not cognitive dissonnance to claim that President Bush lied to the world, the entire world, and convinced them all about WMD's and yet, Chimpy Mchalibushitler was the dumbest President ever?

re: #220 stonemason

And one last thing, please explain how it is not cognitive dissonnance to claim that President Bush lied to the world, the entire world, and convinced them all about WMD's and yet, Chimpy Mchalibushitler was the dumbest President ever?

See also: trufers.

Deja Vu.

re: #36 elbruce

I backed him back then. When he said he'd seen the evidence of WMD's, I believed him. I just figured he couldn't show us the evidence because it might expose our spies in Iraq or something. I couldn't for the life of me imagine that he'd just flat-out be lying about it all. Not even Nixon would have lied like that.

He was not flat out lying... that is a flat out lie.

Republican in Arizon recruiting REAL Candidates to run as Greens for various offices:
GOP Recruiting Street People in Arizona

“Did I recruit candidates? Yes,” said Mr. May, who is himself a candidate for the State Legislature, on the Republican ticket. “Are they fake candidates? No way.”

To make his point, Mr. May went by Starbucks, the gathering spot of the Mill Rats, as the frequenters of Mill Avenue are known.

“Are you fake, Benjamin?” he yelled out to Mr. Pearcy, who cried out “No,” with an expletive attached.

“Are you fake, Thomas?” Mr. May shouted in the direction of Thomas Meadows, 27, a tarot card reader with less than a dollar to his name who is running for state treasurer. He similarly disagreed.

“Are you fake, Grandpa?” he said to Anthony Goshorn, 53, a candidate for the State Senate whose bushy white beard and paternal manner have earned him that nickname on the streets. “I’m real,” he replied.

re: #157 elbruce

A whole range of -1 for talking about your dings instead of making any point whatsoever. I was just addressing an assertion that somebody else made about how Bush wasn't to blame for the thing he does. These points have been far from "shot down" by anyone.

I thought my point was perfectly clear. The "bush lied, people died!" meme is old, played out, and has its own little trutherism branch. Bush lied, the CIA lied, the UK lied, France lied, Russia lied and germany lied all so Bush could invade Iraq and enrich his oil buddies. Makes perfect sense.

re: #218 Obdicut

Boy, rehashing the Iraq war sure is great.

//

Seriously, there is no point in doing so. Bush is not in power. The vast majority of those involved in the invasion are not in power. It is of historical interest. Nothing more. Especially since Bush is basically persona non grata in the GOP these days.

I've tried replying to the Iraq debate three times this morning, and have aborted my response each time as I don't see the point in banging my head against the wall.

"He is the cotton picking president of the United States! If the president of the United States doesn't have enough of a bully pulpit to convince people that...a lie is a lie...what the hell is going on here?"

And from "this-sounds-like-a-Rush-Limbaugh-quote-but-it's-not-'it's-a-stupid-thing-to-say-especially-if-you-are-normally-associated-with-the-left" department...

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

re: #227 Walter L. Newton

Rick Sanchez apologized. I think he was using "cotton picking" as a euphemism for "god-damn" (which would get protests from the right). Sanchez wasn't actually making a racist slur toward the president, but as you get off on muddying the waters with misunderstanding, I'll leave you to it.

re: #227 Walter L. Newton

Actually, he admitted it was a stupid thing to say, and apologized.

re: #227 Walter L. Newton

"He is the cotton picking president of the United States! If the president of the United States doesn't have enough of a bully pulpit to convince people that...a lie is a lie...what the hell is going on here?"

And from "this-sounds-like-a-Rush-Limbaugh-quote-but-it's- not-'it's-a-stupid-thing-to-say-especially-if-you- are-normally-associated-with-the-left" department...

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

Hmm its not a familiar term around here, but most of the usage I've seen it could be replaced by "gosh darn" or similar phrasing. Obviously its a stupid thing to say about a black president, but is it just a poor choice of words or something more dog whistle?

re: #230 mcspiff

Hmm its not a familiar term around here, but most of the usage I've seen it could be replaced by "gosh darn" or similar phrasing. Obviously its a stupid thing to say about a black president, but is it just a poor choice of words or something more dog whistle?

For normal people who can understand nuance, it's a poor choice of words. For people trolling for talking points and false equivalences, it's a dog whistle that needs to be repeated seventeen times as a defense for the various inappropriate things said by those on the right.

re: #228 darthstar

re: #229 Obdicut

re: #231 darthstar

I agree with all three of you, bad choice of words, and I know he apologized... article makes that clear. Still, bad choice of words. Bad Rick.

re: #227 Walter L. Newton

"He is the cotton picking president of the United States! If the president of the United States doesn't have enough of a bully pulpit to convince people that...a lie is a lie...what the hell is going on here?"

And from "this-sounds-like-a-Rush-Limbaugh-quote-but-it's- not-'it's-a-stupid-thing-to-say-especially-if-you- are-normally-associated-with-the-left" department...

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

That's an odd take.
Has anyone ever used "cotton pickin" as a slur against blacks?
Just asking because I always heard it used in the place of "god damn" and "fucking" as in "he's the fucking President of the United States".

If Rush had said it it would have been something like:
"We would be better off if Obama was out picking cotton like a good darky."

But, whatever, Sanchez is a bit of a moron in my opinion.

re: #232 Walter L. Newton

I agree with all three of you, bad choice of words, and I know he apologized... article makes that clear. Still, bad choice of words. Bad Rick.

Thank you for admitting you were wrong.

re: #234 Obdicut

Thank you for admitting you were wrong.

Don't thank me... I'm not perfect.

re: #216 Ericus58

Really?
I didn't know that Bush was telling them what to say and think in '98...

I didn't know that '98 was '03.

re: #225 RogueOne

I thought my point was perfectly clear. The "bush lied, people died!" meme is old, played out, and has its own little trutherism branch.

"Old and played out" isn't the same thing as "false." This is Rovian politics at its best: survive criticisms for a while and then point out that the criticisms are old so you presumably don't have to address them at all.

re: #196 elbruce

Because they were just repeating what Bush told them.

which was a reply to:re: #236 elbruce

I didn't know that '98 was '03.

re: #190 Ericus58

Why does the talk about Bush "lies" about Iraq and WMD's never encompass the many Democratic Party members and Clinton Administration officials referring to Saddam's attempts to have WMD's - even at times saying that he had them in his possession?

The convenient revision of history is not based in facts.

Which makes:
re: #236 elbruce

I didn't know that '98 was '03.

rather suspect. The original statement included "Clinton Administration", that would be the '90's.

re: #236 elbruce

I didn't know that '98 was '03.

Are you really that thick?
Go back to the Clinton Administration officials and Democratic leadership was saying.
That was my intent in bringing up '98.

re: #238 stonemason

and the formatting sucked, but the point is the same. Long before Mr. Bush took office the Clinton Administration was bombing Iraq based on intellligence pointing to Weapons of Mass Destruction. This whole thing could really be pinned on Mr. Clinton if we used your definitions...I am sure the transfer teams discussed the WMD's.

re: #237 elbruce

"Old and played out" isn't the same thing as "false." This is Rovian politics at its best: survive criticisms for a while and then point out that the criticisms are old so you presumably don't have to address them at all.

You mean like this?

re: #218 Obdicut

Boy, rehashing the Iraq war sure is great.

//

Seriously, there is no point in doing so. Bush is not in power. The vast majority of those involved in the invasion are not in power. It is of historical interest. Nothing more. Especially since Bush is basically persona non grata in the GOP these days.

re: #239 Ericus58

Are you really that thick?
Go back to the Clinton Administration officials and Democratic leadership was saying.
That was my intent in bringing up '98.

Teacher... I have the answer... I have the answer... YES!

re: #220 stonemason

And one last thing, please explain how it is not cognitive dissonnance to claim that President Bush lied to the world, the entire world, and convinced them all about WMD's and yet, Chimpy Mchalibushitler was the dumbest President ever?

I think I did that before. He was the President. Dumb or not, the notion that when the President of the United States says that we need to go to war, that his classified intelligence contains absolute proof that Iraq is a grave threat to the security of America, the notion that it might not be the case is something only the most moonbatty truther would claim. I believed him too. Never in my wildest lib'rul imaginings did I think that the intelligence could be anything but as damning as he claimed. But the words that he said in fact were in complete opposition to reality. I don't know how you define the term "lie," but I find that to be a useful operative definition.

If as you seem to be suggesting, there was no more evidence than what was publicly available to everybody, and that was also known, then you must have opposed the invasion of Iraq, because that evidence was insufficient to support it.

re: #238 stonemason

which was a reply to:re: #236 elbruce

re: #190 Ericus58

Which makes:
re: #236 elbruce

rather suspect. The original statement included "Clinton Administration", that would be the '90's.

Ah, I see. I had assumed that he claim that Democrats were supporting invading Iraq was referring to those in Congress in '03 such as Kerry. Digging back through historical archives for past statements by Dems five years earlier isn't relevant in a conversation about actionable intelligence.

re: #240 stonemason

and the formatting sucked, but the point is the same. Long before Mr. Bush took office the Clinton Administration was bombing Iraq based on intellligence pointing to Weapons of Mass Destruction. This whole thing could really be pinned on Mr. Clinton if we used your definitions...I am sure the transfer teams discussed the WMD's.

Soo... Bill Clinton invaded Iraq?

re: #243 elbruce

If as you seem to be suggesting, there was no more evidence than what was publicly available to everybody, and that was also known, then you must have opposed the invasion of Iraq, because that evidence was insufficient to support it.

Where in my post, where did I say anything remotely pro or con regarding the intelligence or the invasion?
I fucking wish people would stop reading into posts things that are not there just becuase you assume I am on one side of the issue or the other. My post was in regard to cognitive dissonnance and how I found it interesting that most of the same people who think Mr. Bush was smart enough to fool the world, are the same people who called him Chimpy.

That is all. My words mean what the words mean. Stop reading into them.

There's a whole lotta brick goin on here.

re: #244 elbruce

Ah, I see. I had assumed that he claim that Democrats were supporting invading Iraq was referring to those in Congress in '03 such as Kerry. Digging back through historical archives for past statements by Dems five years earlier isn't relevant in a conversation about actionable intelligence.

Well, it is when one of those making the statements is the President of the United States. If Mr. Clinton, upon leaving office, told Mr. Bush: Watch out for Iraq, they have WMD's, I think Mr. Bush might have listened. That's all, that's my point, not that either one was right or wrong.
Do I need more disclaimers?

re: #240 stonemason

and the formatting sucked, but the point is the same. Long before Mr. Bush took office the Clinton Administration was bombing Iraq based on intellligence pointing to Weapons of Mass Destruction. This whole thing could really be pinned on Mr. Clinton if we used your definitions...I am sure the transfer teams discussed the WMD's.

The Clinton admin continued Bush 41's program of a no-fly zone and bombing raids on Iraqi military targets, and Bush 43 continued that policy up until we invaded in 2003. The longest gap in 12 years of any US ordinance landing on Iraqi soil was six days. By 2003, we knew there were no WMDs...period. If Iraq had the ability to strike us or its neighbors with WMDs, we never would have invaded. Period. That's why North Korea gets a kid-gloves treatment. Bush took Saddam down because he knew it was a low-risk invasion - Iraq couldn't fight back.

re: #246 stonemason

Where in my post, where did I say anything remotely pro or con regarding the intelligence or the invasion?

So you're not taking a stance on that? Sure seems like you are.

re: #248 stonemason

If Mr. Clinton, upon leaving office, told Mr. Bush: Watch out for Iraq, they have WMD's, I think Mr. Bush might have listened.

I would have been very surprised if he would have spoken so simplistically. Go check the '98 quotes being cited. They're actually quite specific, referring to lack of proven compliance rather than positive statements that WMD's exist. More likely Clinton would have recommended that Bush pay close attention to future IAEA assessments.

re: #250 elbruce

So you're not taking a stance on that? Sure seems like you are.

I am taking a stance on the applicaiton of double standard.
Bush was the only one who saw the intelligence; not true.
Bush was the only one who attacked Iraq based on the intelligence; not true.
We, the public, know everything now, and there is no doubt about any of it at all; not true.

But the talking points, on both sides, are so ingrained that most people will not look past their own mis(pre)conceptions.
And it is happening again.